# New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series



## avsform1

Lumagen is developing the new 
*The Radiance Pro Series*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_details

Should be very interesting! As always Lumagen puts out an excellent product with even better support!

18 HDMI ports? Really?!!


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## Jon S

While i think the Lumagens are great products, i wish the prices would be more reasonable and the GUI more intuitive...


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## uderman

The highest model pictured on the webpage has a 8x7 matrix switch built in. 8 hdmi inputs, 7 zone hdmi outputs, zone 1 has 4 hdmi outputs in parallel for a total of 18 hdmi ports. All inputs and outputs are 4k60 capable.

You can sign up for the beta program and receive a significant discount. I can't discuss much about the new pro as it's still confidental under beta agreement but I can say it is a product you can use for a decade or more. It's hardware is partially modular and all functions are run on its large fpga which can be software updated as new technologies are introduced.


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## jjcook

Note that (at least as of 3-5 months ago) the HDMI daughter cards only support 10gbps and not the full 18gbps per a public post from JimP -- thus AFAIK you'll need to upgrade those to support full UHD like 10-bit 4K with HDR under HDCP 2.2 as that requires more than 10gbps bandwidth -- so not just a one time purchase at this point.


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## Gordon Fraser

jjcook said:


> Note that (at least as of 3-5 months ago) the HDMI daughter cards only support 10gbps and not the full 18gbps per a public post from JimP -- thus AFAIK you'll need to upgrade those to support full UHD like 10-bit 4K with HDR under HDCP 2.2 as that requires more than 10gbps bandwidth -- so not just a one time purchase at this point.


10 bit 4k with hdr is within 10Gbs for 4K24Hz material. As has been mentioned...the unit is modular...can't' say much more but i really don't think this will be a high cost update like it was moving from XD to XE.....


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## jrp

We are releasing our Beta users from NDA to discuss the technical aspects of the Radiance Pro. So you should start to see some posts here and on the Lumagen forum about day to day living with the Radiance Pro.

We are excited to have now released the first per-pixel deinterlacing for the Radiance Pro. It does not yet have a diagonal filter but for 1080i video it is looking very good (IMO).

Switching with the Radiance Pro is much faster than the earlier Radiance models. This is because there is no GF9450 deinterlacing chip to have to setup and wait for.

We are also hearing from Pro owners that the quality is already a step above the older Radiance models.

The Radiance Pro hardware is believed to be at Production Level. Of course software is still in Beta. There is a lot working but we have a number of features still to implement. We are seeing the Radiance Pro installed into non-tech user's homes for use on a daily basis.

I am sure the Beta owners will have their own comments on the Pro so I will let them post if they like. Do also check out the Lumagen forum if you are interested in more information on the Radiance Pro. It is here: http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/

We also have information on the Radiance Pro on our website, and you can contact me at [email protected]. Finally I want to thank AVS Forum for their support, and point out that they are an authorized Lumagen dealer. If you are interested in the Radiance Pro or other Radiance model you can contact them for more information.


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## p5browne

*Latest FW Updates:*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 102115- Adds much improved deinterlacing for 480/576/1080i sources. 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Beta 102215- Fix for a couple of issues in 102115 when using a deinterlaced source and selecting test patterns or performing a screen clear for menu displays. Please continue giving us your detailed feeback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## R Harkness

Question:

If I have a calibration done for my projector using my current Lumagen 2041, can that calibration info be transferred on to Radiance Pro (if I purchase one in the future)? Or will I have to have another calibration done if I replace my 2041 with the Radiance Pro?

Also: Is the Radiance pro fully compatible with the specs for UHD? (E.g. the full specs for Blu-Ray UHD, broadcast UHD etc)?

Thanks.


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## Gordon Fraser

Rich

The Pro has a much larger LUT in it than the 2041 so you would benefit from having a recalibration done. If your calibrator used Lightspace for the job and had measured a very large patch set to create the lut in the first place it would be a trivial job to download that calibration profile in to a Pro. Right now it is not possible to rip an 2041 config and put it in a Pro as the architecture of the FPGA programming is not finalised so there is no config editor for it

Jim can answer your question about UHD BD but i can say that for the announced spe (of the discs)c i don't think there are any hardware issues. Firmware wise they have not implemented HDR or full 600Mpixel pipeline but it's all in the schedule. Really, the best bet is to give Jim a shout.....next time i'm over visiting the inlaws i'll try to come see you...not been over for a year and half but its got to be on the cards soon!


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## BakeApples

Will this be the only Pro model or can we expect to see more models with less inputs/outputs?


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## R Harkness

Gordon, thanks (as always!)


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## uderman

BakeApples said:


> Will this be the only Pro model or can we expect to see more models with less inputs/outputs?


3 configurations are available 

Radiance 4440 - 2 input, 4 output
Radiance 4446 - 8 input, 4 output
Radiance 4449 - 8 input, 4 output, 6 additional unprocessed outputs (8x7 matrix)

I asked Jim about a possible 4K mini, he said the fpga alone on the pro models cost more than the entire cost of a 2020. So reducing i/o and form factor doesn't really result in significant price drop from a 4440. With this in mind, the 4440 configuration is as Radiance mini as it gets for a long time.


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## uderman

I have the 4449 configuration with the built in 8x7 matrix switch. I plan to feed both my cable boxes into it and have one of the zone outputs to feed my living room TV. This way I can watch cable box 1 on main zone and cable 2 on zone 2. We never have more than 2 TVs on at a time(only 2 person family) but we have more than 2 TVs. Instead of putting a cable box, BD player and a streaming box to each room, we have all of them in main room into 4449. In other words, I only pay for 2 cable boxes but I can view them in anyroom with the matrix swtich.

Another benefit is I can enable Pip/Pop and watch 2 seperate TV channels on my main screen. A 4K screen can fit two 1080 channels without loss of resolution. 

This is for not everyone's interest but always wanted to be abke to do this. For the first time I can compare the same film on different formats on the same screen simultaneously with pip/pop function. I.e. Fifth Element mastered from 4k blu-ray vs remastered edition bluray. Thanks to the 8x7 swtich, I am not tying up both my bluray players to main zone to do comparisons. I can always send one of its output to a different zone.


Note: pip/pop is currently not available but expected on a future update. 
Note2: only zone 1 is processed (scaled, color management etc), other 6 zones are pass through only. A future uodate will allow Edid settings on zone 2-7.


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## jrp

R Harkness said:


> Question:
> 
> If I have a calibration done for my projector using my current Lumagen 2041, can that calibration info be transferred on to Radiance Pro (if I purchase one in the future)? Or will I have to have another calibration done if I replace my 2041 with the Radiance Pro?
> 
> Also: Is the Radiance pro fully compatible with the specs for UHD? (E.g. the full specs for Blu-Ray UHD, broadcast UHD etc)?
> 
> Thanks.


Gordon is correct there is not yet a config reader/writer for the Pro. This is actually pretty high on our priority list to get done. We are hoping the calibration from an earlier Radiance will be able to be downloaded in the Radiance Pro, but this has not been decided yet.

The Radiance Pro is compatible with UHD. At this time the I/O cards are HDMI 2.0, with HDCP 2.2, at 9 GHz. We will be adding an upgrade option for 18 GHz I/O in 2016.

The Radiance Pro hardware is compatible with HDR, P3 color space (a.k.a. DCI), and Rec 2020 color space. Just as we added 3D, and a 3D LUT, long after introduction of the Radiance processors, we can add these when the time comes. Right now there seem to be too many cooks in the kitchen for HDR. We are hoping HDR coalesces into a single open standard, but this is not clear yet.


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## Mark_H

Gordon Fraser said:


> If your calibrator used Lightspace for the job and had measured a very large patch set to create the lut in the first place it would be a trivial job to download that calibration profile in to a Pro.


Your CalMAN calibrator could do the same


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## R Harkness

jrp said:


> Gordon is correct there is not yet a config reader/writer for the Pro. This is actually pretty high on our priority list to get done. We are hoping the calibration from an earlier Radiance will be able to be downloaded in the Radiance Pro, but this has not been decided yet.
> 
> The Radiance Pro is compatible with UHD. At this time the I/O cards are HDMI 2.0, with HDCP 2.2, at 9 GHz. We will be adding an upgrade option for 18 GHz I/O in 2016.
> 
> The Radiance Pro hardware is compatible with HDR, P3 color space (a.k.a. DCI), and Rec 2020 color space. Just as we added 3D, and a 3D LUT, long after introduction of the Radiance processors, we can add these when the time comes. Right now there seem to be too many cooks in the kitchen for HDR. We are hoping HDR coalesces into a single open standard, but this is not clear yet.


Ok, good info, thank you Jim. It seems at least theoretically a Lumagen Pro should be good for many years in terms of specs (?).


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## jrp

R Harkness said:


> Ok, good info, thank you Jim. It seems at least theoretically a Lumagen Pro should be good for many years in terms of specs (?).


We believe so. 

We put the inputs on "Dual Input" modules, and the outputs on "Dual Output" modules, so that as HDMI evolves we plan to sell upgraded HDMI modules. The HDMI I/O modules plug into the Radiance Pro switch board. So upgrading would be straight forward. This allows you to keep the most expensive parts of the Radiance Pro (the processor board with the FPGA, the switch board, and the case) in place and replace just the I/O modules to get a new HDMI standard added (that requires a new hardware chip - most do not).

The Radiance Pro FPGA, while expensive, is much larger than previous FPGAs we have used and has the flexibility to adapt to reasonable changes in the standards such as HDR. So we expect most changes will be part of our software updates. Note we reserve the right to charge for software updates (as we did for 3D), in the future. There are no planned "fee based" updates at this time though.


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## robbyrockets

The prices are absolutely ludicrous $6,000.00 to $8,000.00 is more than the 4K display I'm purchasing.


One of the things that I would have loved with my present Lumagen 2143 was software that allowed me too make adjustments on my pc instead of having too plow through an at first confusing menu system, a system that I still struggle with at times.


Lumagen needs too build there own calibration software similar too CONTROLCal that allows one too make the adjustments without popping in and out of onscreen menus.


A $4000.00 to $6000.00 price range would have still been crazy, but possible.


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## uderman

jrp said:


> The Radiance Pro is compatible with UHD. At this time the I/O cards are HDMI 2.0, with HDCP 2.2, at 9 GHz. We will be adding an upgrade option for 18 GHz I/O in 2016.


UHD BD release seems to be postponed to early 2016 so the 18gHz timing is right on time.


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## uderman

robbyrockets said:


> The prices are absolutely ludicrous $6,000.00 to $8,000.00 is more than the 4K display I'm purchasing.
> 
> 
> One of the things that I would have loved with my present Lumagen 2143 was software that allowed me too make adjustments on my pc instead of having too plow through an at first confusing menu system, a system that I still struggle with at times.
> 
> 
> Lumagen needs too build there own calibration software similar too CONTROLCal that allows one too make the adjustments without popping in and out of onscreen menus.
> 
> 
> A $4000.00 to $6000.00 price range would have still been crazy, but possible.


Suggested retail is high but not unusual if you compare to prices of video processors in the early days of HD resolutions. In the early days of 4K, the hardware and development cost is just as high, especially for a niche product like radiance pro.

I use calman enthusiast, almost the entire calibration process is automated. Calman can access most of lumagen's functions via serial or usb port. Once the calibration is done and all memories are tweaked, there isn't much tinkering needed, I rarely use Lumagen's remote control other than power on/off and switch inputs. 

I wouldn't be against a fancier menu and ip/web based control but I would rather have Lumagen dedicate their resources on perfecting the video output.


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## meyertomtom

*Some comments from a beta Pro-tester*

I was a bit’ backstage’ with beta testing, only until the latest release of Pro-updates became available last week. Indeed I was almost desperately waiting for a decent deinterlacing algorithm on the Pro to finally put my good old workhorse, the XE, aside and stay with the Pro connected. On the other hand, switching back and forth between the two allowed me to see differences though only with conventional SD/HD material. At this time I can't say much on UHD yet.
So thanks very much to Jim Peterson and Patrick for bringing us back to state-of-the-art deinterlacing technology in the Pro. In our region we still have numerous SD (576i) sources not yet replaced by HD stations. Most of them, however, come with video bit rates of 4-6 M/s where the old Gennum chip produced nearly true HD quality on the screen. That is to say, we are not yet through here with the SD era, and the well-known assets of the Lumagen-scaling and -deinterlacing are still more than warranted. So I hope Patrick will eventually finish the deinterlacer including the filters.
Having said this, here is a first strange but positive observation when running the new Pro-firmware (102215):
When previously watching film-to-video converted material (with the XE), be it in progressive (720p) or deinterlaced (576/1080i) mode, the following rather annoying situation was observed: When in a still scene motion would set in, the first few frames showed pronounced motion judder/blurr which would then within a fraction of a second settle to completely smooth motion. Always at the beginning of a moving object this type of initial judder was present. This phenomenon has disappeared on the Pro, and I have no idea why. I know that in the Pro Genlock is still inactive (off) and the deinterlacing features of e.g. frame interpolation are not yet implemented either. Yet, these (on the XE) had no influence on the observed judder. Is the absence of this to be attributed to the new deinterlacer in the Pro? Or is it a scaling effect?
Picture quality with 1080i (and 720p) is truly excellent, no question. Other than that I do spot the effects of the missing diagonal filter in 576i.
In the menu-function "LED control" one speaks of the green LED (on or off); my LED however is blue. This is only a trivial issue.
I haven’t tried all the functionalities in the Pro yet, but can say that the basic functions of the menu are all without fault (to be updated in case I spot something new to the contrary).
Thanks for staying with us. Good luck with your ongoing developing work.
Cheers,
MTT.


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## stanger89

OK, guys, help me out, Jim just got back to me with pricing for a 4442, and well, now I've got a dilemma, and I'm hoping those of you who've been using the Pro can help me out.

First things first, my current setup consists of a Radiance XE 3D, Anthem AVM50V, Darbee, a JVC RS4910 and a Planar 8150 (along with my misc sources). I run all my sources to the XE, which splits with an HDMI run to my Anthem for audio and another to an HDMI splitter to the two projectors.

I've been really looking into what it will take to get me ready for UHD (UHD BD, Streaming, etc). Other than the obvious source and display, I'll need to do something about my AVM50V and/or Lumagen XE since neither can handle UHD. 

So here's some of the thoughts bouncing around my head, Pros I've come up with for the new RadiancePro


Simplified HDMI setup, I could simply run HDMI directly from the Pro to my AVM50V, JVC and Planar, it would eliminate two "hops".
Per-source/resolution Darbee settings
Per source settings in general (I have some extra noise reduction for 720p on my DVR input).
LUT/Calibration for the JVC, or any future projector that likewise needs it.
Deinterlacing/etc of SD source, like MTT I've still got a good bit of SD source material that will never see the light of HD or UHD.
Price/timing - those under NDA will probably understand, but I expect this may be my only chance to be able to pick one of these up.
Top tear scaling, especially Vertical Stretch for anamorphic lens


But here are the, lets call it arguments against....


Price
Other than for the JVC, I really don't need the 3D LUT capabilities, and even there I could use the JVC autocal instead. It seems autocal is becoming more and more common on projectors.
It's getting harder and harder to find source devices that will pass video untouched to a downstream video processor. Most sources seem to not have auto resolution switching anymore, especially for streaming services.
Video processing overall is a lot better than it used to be.


What it sort of comes down to is this I guess. On the one hand, we're entering a time where quality scaling is going to be really important again, with UHD displays and a limited amount of UHD content, this argument makes me think I should really try to make it work to get a Pro, and some of the other upgrades I was thinking about can wait.

On the flip side, it's becoming harder and harder to find sources that "cooperate" with external scalers (ie let them do all the work), pretty much everything automatically outputs 1080p these days, so in that vein it makes less sense to spend a bunch of money on something that's effectively bypassed by poor sources. So on this argument, it seems like maybe I should just abandon a Lumagen all together....

Maybe step one is to pull my XE out of the loop for a while and see if I can go back. I remember thinking it added a refinement/solidity to the image when I got it, but maybe that was preconception/placebo....


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## p5browne

*2016 ?*

Manufacturer's seem to be keeping their newer products closely guarded under wraps, and, I assume, until presented at CES 2016.
I can see TV sets moving in the direction of the projectors, in that the calibration patterns will be created by the calibration software, and TVs will be directly calibrated after having updated to 21 Point Grayscale, a separate calibration for HDR, and possibly 3D LUTs - all built in. In fact, there's a auto calibration also being built in with a pull out Meter. I can for see a lot of changes coming in 2016! In what directions - ? 
It keeps consumers, vendors and manufacturers, all wishing for an all knowing psychic who can see the future.
But enjoy while you can - they're also predicting Terminator annihilation in 30 years due to AI!


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## p5browne

*Latest FW updates*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 103015- Adds fan speed settings in menu under "Other : Fan control" and the normal fan speed is quieter---the low setting is quieter still. Fix for some rarely used output modes with pixel clocks greater than 160mhz that are not 4k modes (.ie 1080p72). The output copy menu was added back in. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware

Beta 102715- Fix for matrix switch issue (outs 5-10) not turning on with last selected sources. Added option capability for external triggers and 3D eyeglass output.
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## Gordon Fraser

stranger89.

please take what i say with the knowledge i am the EU distributor for lumagen. I am also a very experienced calibrator. The auto cal in a JVC projector will not get you anywhere close to the level of accuracy you would have if you used professional calibration software for 3dLUT generation plus the Pro. Also, even though i have no experience of your planar display i would find it unlikely it would not benefit from a LUT based calibration. Even the most expensive displays that are very linear in operation and that are used in post production houses require accurate calibration and usually LUT based.

The Pro is an expensive bit of kit for sure...but think anout this. Your XE is probably 8yrs old. How many 8yr old pieces of electronics still get firmware updates to add features or performance to them....the image quality improvements on XE from when they come out to today are significant. It's early days for the Pro architecture but i envisage it will be getting improvements and enhancements that will benefit any system it is put in to for many years to come.


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## p5browne

Gordon Fraser said:


> stranger89.
> 
> please take what i say with the knowledge i am the EU distributor for lumagen. I am also a very experienced calibrator. The auto cal in a JVC projector will not get you anywhere close to the level of accuracy you would have if you used professional calibration software for 3dLUT generation plus the Pro. Also, even though i have no experience of your planar display i would find it unlikely it would not benefit from a LUT based calibration. Even the most expensive displays that are very linear in operation and that are used in post production houses require accurate calibration and usually LUT based.
> 
> The Pro is an expensive bit of kit for sure...but think anout this. Your XE is probably 8yrs old. How many 8yr old pieces of electronics still get firmware updates to add features or performance to them....the image quality improvements on XE from when they come out to today are significant. It's early days for the Pro architecture but i envisage it will be getting improvements and enhancements that will benefit any system it is put in to for many years to come.


My XS-3D and XE-3D are both working great (Once I put the XE-3D out of the line of fire for the Samsung TV Remote when calibrating.) But, their days are numbered. The Pro is still in Beta, as pretty everything today, in that the architects of the Standards, are back at it again arguing as to final specs. This therefore, leaves manufactures at a cross road as to what direction to take. Add to this a complete turn over in technology on both the Audio and Video sides of the coin. Competition can be great at times, but stressful! I think this in turn is turning us, the consumer, into couch potatoes, in that we're just going to be happy with what we have, and wait it out. Doesn't help the sales sides of things!


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## stanger89

One thing I will ask, how is the deinterlacing on the Pro vs the XE? Pretty much all the source material I've got that is still 480i is TV shows that are very challenging to deinterlace, even my XE has trouble, some special software on my PC can actually best it, all be it it's offline processing.

Other than that, thanks guys, I had started a long "rebuttal", but well, I don't disagree with anything you guys have said, and I don't want to turn this into an argument about the Pro. Sadly I think what it really comes down to, is I just can't justify jumping in now. I really want to, because I know you guys/Lumagen build a great product, I'm sure the Pro will be a spectacular piece, and right now is probably the best deal I'll ever see on a Pro, but it's just too much, especially when I look at my XE and how "little" I really take advantage of it. Only one of my sources can output untouched video, my DVR, and if I ever upgrade that will probably go away and all my sources will just output 1080p at that point. I'll probably hang onto my XE, though I'm not sure what I'll do once I upgrade to an AVM60 next year.


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## Gordon Fraser

stanger89 said:


> One thing I will ask, how is the deinterlacing on the Pro vs the XE? Pretty much all the source material I've got that is still 480i is TV shows that are very challenging to deinterlace, even my XE has trouble, some special software on my PC can actually best it, all be it it's offline processing.
> 
> Other than that, thanks guys, I had started a long "rebuttal", but well, I don't disagree with anything you guys have said, and I don't want to turn this into an argument about the Pro. Sadly I think what it really comes down to, is I just can't justify jumping in now. I really want to, because I know you guys/Lumagen build a great product, I'm sure the Pro will be a spectacular piece, and right now is probably the best deal I'll ever see on a Pro, but it's just too much, especially when I look at my XE and how "little" I really take advantage of it. Only one of my sources can output untouched video, my DVR, and if I ever upgrade that will probably go away and all my sources will just output 1080p at that point. I'll probably hang onto my XE, though I'm not sure what I'll do once I upgrade to an AVM60 next year.


The de-interlacing in the Pro seems to be very good for 1080i so far. I've not been looking at any SD myself so can't comment. Whereas the VXP chip occassionaly combs the new Pro de-interlacing doesn't comb at all from what ive seen. This version is just their first attempt though so i expect better results at some point..but it's not bad already.


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## uderman

For me, no ringing scaling alone is enough reason to own the pro( or any Lumagen product ). It transforms the picture into almost CRT like. On a smaller screen, this might be a disadvantage because ringing makes the image appear sharper. On a large screen, ringing and amplified mosquito noise is unbearable. Lumagen has none of those, nill, zero!

As Gordon said, even the old XE units are still not badly outdated, they still get updates. The new architecture is all software, this means it can evolve to a much larger degree. For example, gennum vxp chip had issues with wierd anime cadences for deinterlacing, this was a hardware limitation, Lumagen couldn't help it. Another example, gennum Vxp had no real forced film mode, even in film mode, the chip would occasionally drop to video mode deinterlacing. This is another hardware limitation. Fortunately Lumagen solved this bypassing gennum VXP and using their own forced film mode deinterlacing. With the new fpga based architecture, no such thing as hardware limitation(in the previous example's sense), if enough people complain about wierd anime cadences, Lumagen will rewrite the code to handle it. This is a great ability. You will never get this from your TV or projector manufacturer. They will stick the product with their initial deinterlacing algorithm and it ends there. 

As stanher said, most sources are 1080p60 fixed nowadays but with genlock and inverse telecine, Lumagen is able to convert it back to 1080p24 without any tears. And for getting near native output, you have to research media players. I use a Tivo roamio pro box which can output netflix, hulu, vudu in native resolutions. Tivo bolt can do netflix 4k too. 

I have my oppo set to source direct and tivo roamio pro (for cable tv) set to source direct. I get dvd, bd, netflix, hulu, vudu and youtube in native resolutions into Lumagen this way.


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## biliam1982

Can someone clarify this?

-DARBEE Digital Visual Presence (DVP) enhancement technology for up to 2K sources

Does that mean it won't do Darbee in 4k?


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## p5browne

*Another one.*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 103115- Adds a larger range of fan speed settings and a temperature readout. Please continue giving us your detailed feeback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## thrang

Should have my beta unit Monday - thanks Jim!


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## BakeApples

I currently use a Lumagen Mini3D in my setup and have been for almost 2 years now, it has worked really well and I have now got used to its abilities, like the NLS for example. A fantastic feature that allows me to utilize my 2.35 screen to the max. I also like the NoRing scaling and prefer it over other scalers.
Have been thinking of upgrading to the newer 21xx models for some time now but when Lumagen presented the forthcoming Pro models, i knew i had to be patient and wait. Will most likely upgrade my Mini3D to the 4440 and even though the price seems a bit high, this is one of those pieces i will probably keep for many years unlike most other electronics at home. And also the fact that Lumagen constantly improves the product makes me think it's worth the cost.

Lately, i`m watching more and more SD material (576i) with my projector so a good de-interlacer is of great importance to me. Glad to hear Pro users are happy with the de-interlacing so far

Looking forward to upgrade my Mini3D soon.


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## Gordon Fraser

biliam1982 said:


> Can someone clarify this?
> 
> -DARBEE Digital Visual Presence (DVP) enhancement technology for up to 2K sources
> 
> Does that mean it won't do Darbee in 4k?


Darbee themselves do not do any 4K processing...and they have no plans to do any 4K processing...so it's impossible for lumagen to impliment.


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## Surfdrifter

BakeApples said:


> I currently use a Lumagen Mini3D in my setup and have been for almost 2 years now, it has worked really well and I have now got used to its abilities, like the NLS for example. A fantastic feature that allows me to utilize my 2.35 screen to the max. I also like the NoRing scaling and prefer it over other scalers.
> Have been thinking of upgrading to the newer 21xx models for some time now but when Lumagen presented the forthcoming Pro models, i knew i had to be patient and wait. Will most likely upgrade my Mini3D to the 4440 and even though the price seems a bit high, this is one of those pieces i will probably keep for many years unlike most other electronics at home. And also the fact that Lumagen constantly improves the product makes me think it's worth the cost.
> 
> Lately, i`m watching more and more SD material (576i) with my projector so a good de-interlacer is of great importance to me. Glad to hear Pro users are happy with the de-interlacing so far
> 
> Looking forward to upgrade my Mini3D soon.


I do believe that the Radiance Pro is a great processor to own, but since you're interested in de-interlacing, maybe you should keep the mini together with the Radiance Pro, since in their page, they state that deinterlacing is scheduled for a future update.

So, get 4440 and keep the mini around until the update!


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## stanger89

They've got deinterlacing working, you'll see if you check the firmware page they added it. On the last page Gordon commented that in some ways it works better than the older models:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...lumagen-radiance-pro-series.html#post38661329


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## R Harkness

Gordon Fraser said:


> Darbee themselves do not do any 4K processing...and they have no plans to do any 4K processing...so it's impossible for lumagen to impliment.



That seems rather odd, given the apparent success of the Darbee. With everything moving towards 4K, how could Darbee not have plans to do 4K processing???


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## p5browne

R Harkness said:


> That seems rather odd, given the apparent success of the Darbee. With everything moving towards 4K, how could Darbee not have plans to do 4K processing???


Darbee has gone out of favour? Don't see much mention of it anymore, especially with the new improved sets coming out now days.


----------



## stanger89

R Harkness said:


> That seems rather odd, given the apparent success of the Darbee. With everything moving towards 4K, how could Darbee not have plans to do 4K processing???


It could well be a matter of the cost/time getting the ASICs fabbed for 4K. Maybe it's not so much a matter of no plans, but more they're not at a state where they can publicly release 4K plans. I can only imagine how hard/expensive it is to get the chips made to have it affordable with 4K. Especially given the cost of the FPGA in the Radiance Pro. ASICs are the only way a 4K Darbee would be affordable.


----------



## p5browne

*Urgent!*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 110115- CRITICAL BUGFIX for 103115 firmware---if you loaded 103115 then please update to this firmware ASAP to avoid an issue where the fan could turn off causing the unit to overheat.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## thrang

Running the latest Pro beta firmware and the latest Chromapure...when performing an auto cal, the advanced color gamut only lists one choice - 125 colors - even though I've saved the 17x17x17 gamut setting in the Pro...

Is this known behavior at this time? Or a bug?

Thanks


----------



## Grifo

thrang said:


> Running the latest Pro beta firmware and the latest Chromapure...when performing an auto cal, the advanced color gamut only lists one choice - 125 colors - even though I've saved the 17x17x17 gamut setting in the Pro...
> 
> Is this known behavior at this time? Or a bug?
> 
> Thanks


And how did you save your previous calibration in rad pro??
My dealer suggested to me to manually copy all the values
Because ther is not a transfer program between different models yet...
Actually he told me even not to try a new calibration with pro at this beta time...


----------



## Grifo

thrang said:


> Running the latest Pro beta firmware and the latest Chromapure...when performing an auto cal, the advanced color gamut only lists one choice - 125 colors - even though I've saved the 17x17x17 gamut setting in the Pro...
> 
> Is this known behavior at this time? Or a bug?
> 
> Thanks


And how did you save your previous calibration in rad pro??
My dealer suggested to me to manually copy all the values
Because ther is not a transfer program between different models yet...
Actually he told me even not to try a new calibration with pro at this beta time...


----------



## thrang

Grifo said:


> And how did you save your previous calibration in rad pro??
> My dealer suggested to me to manually copy all the values
> Because ther is not a transfer program between different models yet...
> Actually he told me even not to try a new calibration with pro at this beta time...


I didn't save my old cal; its not supported to upload older Radiance calibrations into the Pro

I updated to the latest firmware this morning, and that issue resolved. But doing an auto cal, there are numerous color pattern glitches, where the pattern flickers for a second, causing bad dE'a on those patterns.


----------



## Grifo

thrang said:


> I didn't save my old cal; its not supported to upload older Radiance calibrations into the Pro
> 
> I updated to the latest firmware this morning, and that issue resolved. But doing an auto cal, there are numerous color pattern glitches, where the pattern flickers for a second, causing bad dE'a on those patterns.


Ok, so once I will get my pro (sometime in November)
Will be better not to perform a new calibration.. But if I won't be able to transfer my old calibration will remain without any cal.... As I give back my 2041..


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 110415- Added per input memory selection for HDCP 2.2 /HDCP 1.x. This allows older 1.x displays to display material from some of the newer UHD sources (like Shield/FireHD/Roku4). When the UHD source sees that it's connected to a 1.x device it may send lower resolution than UHD (.ie FireHD sends 1080p in this case). This new Pro setting is found in the menu under "Input: HDCP". Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Grifo said:


> Ok, so once I will get my pro (sometime in November)
> Will be better not to perform a new calibration.. But if I won't be able to transfer my old calibration will remain without any cal.... As I give back my 2041..


You cannot transfer old product configuration files to new Pro units. That will come at some point.

If you do not have a good local calibrator or are not self calibrating then, if you do want to move the calibration over, then copying the numbers from old file to new one is an option...but a very tedious one i'd say.

If you are able to calibrate or have a calibrator you use. Get them to come and do a profile of your system using Lightspace or (thanks for the correction MarkH) Calman.....and they will then be able to save that file to download it to the Pro's LUT bank should anything happen in the future before its possible to save the config file from the Pro. The 17x17x17 LUT capability is much better than the 9x9x9 or 5x5x5 in the older units.


----------



## Grifo

Gordon Fraser said:


> You cannot transfer old product configuration files to new Pro units. That will come at some point.
> 
> If you do not have a good local calibrator or are not self calibrating then, if you do want to move the calibration over, then copying the numbers from old file to new one is an option...but a very tedious one i'd say.
> 
> If you are able to calibrate or have a calibrator you use. Get them to come and do a profile of your system using Lightspace or (thanks for the correction MarkH) Calman.....and they will then be able to save that file to download it to the Pro's LUT bank should anything happen in the future before its possible to save the config file from the Pro. The 17x17x17 LUT capability is much better than the 9x9x9 or 5x5x5 in the older units.


You say that a calibrator could calibrate with calman or lightspace.. 
I use chromapure. 
Anyway with all these sw, as far as I know, you cannot perform an autocal with radiance pro now.
That means that now:
- it's possible to manually calibrate (I can't by myself) but without radiance pro (therefor without cms)
- it's possible to manually copy all the old values of my 2041 in the pro

Well, next months, until beta is going on (april 2016?), should I use the values manually copied without a new calibration once needed again???

Concerning 17*17*17 I know is better but My display 3 pro needs too
much time and a klain is too expensive...
Not good news.....


----------



## jrp

Grifo said:


> Ok, so once I will get my pro (sometime in November)
> Will be better not to perform a new calibration.. But if I won't be able to transfer my old calibration will remain without any cal.... As I give back my 2041..


We are now working on the data-structure changes needed for the Pro. Since much of the setup is different (needs more input modes in the list, no GF9450 "Gennum," more outputs, etc.), the config reader program may not take configurations from older Radiance units to be uploaded to the Pro.

However, we will be looking if we can allow the CMS calibrations to be transferred from an older Radiance to the Pro. Since the CMS in the Pro is the same as the CMS in the 21XX units, it should be possible. Given the major changes to the data structure it is more work than one might expect. So I am not sure when/if we will get to it.


----------



## jrp

Grifo said:


> You say that a calibrator could calibrate with calman or lightspace..
> I use chromapure.
> Anyway with all these sw, as far as I know, you cannot perform an autocal with radiance pro now.
> That means that now:
> - it's possible to manually calibrate (I can't by myself) but without radiance pro (therefor without cms)
> - it's possible to manually copy all the old values of my 2041 in the pro
> 
> Well, next months, until beta is going on (april 2016?), should I use the values manually copied without a new calibration once needed again?


Note that the Radiance Pro auto-cal is working with Calman, Chromapure, and Lightspace and has been working for months now. We have heard couple people have issues with Chromapure getting more than 5x5x5, but I think that has been resolved.

We will be adding the config download capability in the next month most likely. So you will be able to backup your calibrations.


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> Note that the Radiance Pro auto-cal is working with Calman, Chromapure, and Lightspace and has been working for months now.


Why not with Argyll CMS???

ss


----------



## Gordon Fraser

You can use Chromapure for calibration, of course. However, the way chromapure works is not the same as the other two. Chromapure does not save measurement data to apply mathematical modeling to that data to create the LUT. It works by doing iterative measurements and adjustments. With Chromapure i'd suggest you choose to do a 729 point cal as a 17x17x17 would take hours and hours with an i1Display Pro. I'd hope that Chrompaure v3 works differently but i have no Knowledge of what Tom is planning.


----------



## uderman

Hi Gordon, this is interesting. Doesn't this alone makes chromapure more accurate?


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates 

Beta 110615- Improves audio muting in cases where some audio processors connected to a Pro output would still produce noise on power up or switching inputs. Also added ability to mute for longer time (in the menu under Global: Audio: Mute Control).
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Gordon Fraser

uderman said:


> Hi Gordon, this is interesting. Doesn't this alone makes chromapure more accurate?


No....not in my tests. Calman used to work the same way but have moved to a method more similar to the way Lightspace works. With lightspace you measure once and with that data you can then target LUT's for any colourspace or gamma you want. With chromapure you'd have to run the whole iterative process again...and again....and again...I expect Tom has been busy working on a better methodology for LUT creation.


----------



## BakeApples

In Key Features for the Pro models, there is a "PiP" and "PoP" feature coming later and i`m not sure i understand this, how does this work and how can users benefit from it?


----------



## jrp

BakeApples said:


> In Key Features for the Pro models, there is a "PiP" and "PoP" feature coming later and i`m not sure i understand this, how does this work and how can users benefit from it?


PiP (Picture In Picture) is a second input displayed as a window over the main image. The window location and size is programmable.

PoP (Picture Outside Picture) is a second input displayed next to a reduced size main image.

Either can be used to have a second program (e.g. football game) so you can watch two at once, or watch one and monitor the other. PiP can also be used to display the OSD of your receiver in a small window on screen, or a doorbell camera or baby camera.

PoP works very well on a 2.35 screen to display two 16:9 sports games.


----------



## BakeApples

Ok, sounds like a really nice and useful feature. Thanks for the explanation Jim


----------



## uderman

It would be cool if you could do four 1080p feeds on one 4k screen


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> Why not with Argyll CMS???


Graeme at Argyll has a Radiance to test with but has not made progress on Radiance 3D LUT CMS support last I heard. So, there may be Argyll support for Radiance CMS in the future, but that is up to Graeme.


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> Graeme at Argyll has a Radiance to test with but has not made progress on Radiance 3D LUT CMS support last I heard. So, there may be Argyll support for Radiance CMS in the future, but that is up to Graeme.


Thanks Jim, good to hear.

ss


----------



## BakeApples

I was wondering how to output 24p source material (Netflix movies) from an AppleTV to my projector & TV going via the Radiance Pro for the best result. Unfortunately, the AppleTV can only output at 50 & 60hz so my question is, can the Radiance Pro recreate a 24p signal from the outputted 1080p60 somehow?


----------



## uderman

Currently, the best streaming device is TiVo. It is the only device that can stream 1080p24 from Netflix, Vudu and Amazon. The newest TiVo Bolt can do Netflix 4K and Amazon 4K is coming soon. 

Afaik AppleTv doesn't allow Dolby Digital+ 7.1. It is a cool interface(I use one too) but if you want the best output, it has flaws.

Even Mac computers won't output the true 23.97 frame video, they convert it to 24.00 frame. The hw supports it but the sw doesn't include 23.97 frame rate.

Older Vudu boxes and their new stick supports 1080p23.97 but that only gets you Vudu.

Older Western Digital media boxes also have support for 1080p23.97.

All other including Oppo converts to 59.96 hz.


----------



## stanger89

BakeApples said:


> I was wondering how to output 24p source material (Netflix movies) from an AppleTV to my projector & TV going via the Radiance Pro for the best result. Unfortunately, the AppleTV can only output at 50 & 60hz so my question is, can the Radiance Pro recreate a 24p signal from the outputted 1080p60 somehow?


You can set the output refresh rate to 24, at least you can on my XE. I'm not sure I've ever tried it so I'm not sure how smart the Radiance is with it's decimating 60->24.


----------



## jrp

BakeApples said:


> I was wondering how to output 24p source material (Netflix movies) from an AppleTV to my projector & TV going via the Radiance Pro for the best result. Unfortunately, the AppleTV can only output at 50 & 60hz so my question is, can the Radiance Pro recreate a 24p signal from the outputted 1080p60 somehow?


We have a Film-Mode 60p to 24p Inverse-Telecine on the list of future features, but it is not in the software yet. So for now with the Radiance Pro you would output these as 50p or 60p as appropriate.


----------



## BakeApples

Does the Pro model use the same IR commands as any of the older models if i want to add the device to my Logitech Harmony harmony remote? I tried searching for it in the database but the only options available were the XD, XS and XE. Can i simply use one of these to control the Pro as well?


----------



## Chris5

If you want 60 2 24p now, you could get an existing secondhand XD/S/E which does do this and daisy chain into your pro. I have done this a lot on my XS


----------



## Gordon Fraser

BakeApples said:


> Does the Pro model use the same IR commands as any of the older models if i want to add the device to my Logitech Harmony harmony remote? I tried searching for it in the database but the only options available were the XD, XS and XE. Can i simply use one of these to control the Pro as well?



Yes, all lumagen devices use the same ir commands


----------



## jrp

BakeApples said:


> Does the Pro model use the same IR commands as any of the older models if i want to add the device to my Logitech Harmony harmony remote? I tried searching for it in the database but the only options available were the XD, XS and XE. Can i simply use one of these to control the Pro as well?


Yes, all Radiance Models, including the Radiance Pro, have the same IR and RS-232 codes. So you can use the Harmony database codes for any Radiance. 

I actually use a couple Harmony One's in my home and the codes work well with the Radiance.


----------



## jrp

Chris5 said:


> If you want 60 2 24p now, you could get an existing secondhand XD/S/E which does do this and daisy chain into your pro. I have done this a lot on my XS


Note that the older models have a Film mode for 1080i and 480i sources to 24p output, but this does not work for 60p back to 24p. So you would likely see judder with a 60p "film" source converted for 24p output.


----------



## Chris5

Yes, sorry, I was thinking 60i to 24p.


----------



## sierraalphahotel

Hi folks. Hoping to add a Radiance Pro to go along with my new OLED display and then have Gordon Fraser calibrate it to the nth degree.

One question, I assume the unit runs a fan and if so, how does the sound level compare to say an Oppo spinning a blu ray or a TiVo box when recording? I am mostly concerned about things being ultra quiet when I watch classical blu ray concerts. Is it necessary to keep the 'Pro in a second room?

Thanks, guys!


----------



## uderman

It was loud a month ago, they addressed this on a recent firmware update. The fan speed is user adjustable now as well. Fpga core temperature is displayed on info screen. Below 90 is recommended and pro hovers around 70 at the speed of 2 out of 10. Speed 3 and below is near silent. They will further tweak and improve on later updates.


----------



## Surfdrifter

Is the GUI the same with the older models or has it been revamped? If yes, are any screenshots allowed yet, during beta?


----------



## thrang

Surfdrifter said:


> Is the GUI the same with the older models or has it been revamped? If yes, are any screenshots allowed yet, during beta?


No, it's still a close cousin to a DOS prompt, but it works.

I think a more polished end user menu with the the most oft used settings during viewing would be a nice option as opposed to entering the tesseract every time...


----------



## jrp

We have released the NDA for technical comments. So Beta owners can post comments and pictures if they would like to.

We now have the FPGA core temperature reading working which gives the Radiance Pro a more accurate reading than external temperature readings. This allowed us to reduce fan speed and the fan is much quieter now.

One small correction: The maximum specified FPGA core temperature (for speed reasons) is 85C. The Pro's plenum is working very well to help keep the FPGA cool, and the FPGA core temperature is below 85C for all fan speed settings in all systems who have reported readings. Settings are from 1 to 10 with 6 being the default. People are finding settings of 3 or 4 are very quiet and provide a good margin for future FPGA power increases that will come as we add more features.


----------



## sierraalphahotel

Thanks for the info regarding the fan noise.

It's good to know that the fan has such a range of speed control. Ultimately, the situation I'm aiming for will see everything but the display in a separate room at some point.

Looking forward to seeing some pictures from the current beta testers!


----------



## thrang

Very quiet in here...and no firmware updates in almost a month.

Anything new - especially from a feature/performance perspective - coming out soon for the Pro?


----------



## R Harkness

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you do not have a good local calibrator or are not self calibrating then, if you do want to move the calibration over, then copying the numbers from old file to new one is an option...but a very tedious one i'd say.


Question for Gordon - or anyone else who can help me:

I am picking up my new JVC RS600 projector tomorrow, to replace my current JVC RS57 projector.

I just realized this is the first time I'm swapping projectors while having a Lumagen VP in my system. My current RS57 was calibrated using the Lumagen, so I'd presume that if I simply swap the projectors, the Lumagen will have been calibrated for the old projector, and things won't look right. 

So my question is: How do I have my new projector hooked up to the Lumagen (which is doing all my video switching) in a way that bypasses the Lumagen's calibrated settings?

It's been a while since I delved through the Lumagen menu, but I presume my calibrator would have chosen or created a particular picture setting in the Lumagen, and I could somewhere select a different, uncalibrated pathway. But...how?

Many thanks!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

R Harkness said:


> Question for Gordon - or anyone else who can help me:
> 
> I am picking up my new JVC RS600 projector tomorrow, to replace my current JVC RS57 projector.
> 
> I just realized this is the first time I'm swapping projectors while having a Lumagen VP in my system. My current RS57 was calibrated using the Lumagen, so I'd presume that if I simply swap the projectors, the Lumagen will have been calibrated for the old projector, and things won't look right.
> 
> So my question is: How do I have my new projector hooked up to the Lumagen (which is doing all my video switching) in a way that bypasses the Lumagen's calibrated settings?
> 
> It's been a while since I delved through the Lumagen menu, but I presume my calibrator would have chosen or created a particular picture setting in the Lumagen, and I could somewhere select a different, uncalibrated pathway. But...how?
> 
> Many thanks!


Easiest way is to reset the CMS and greyscale to defaults for each CMS bank in use.

You turn on service mode
MENU 0 9 1 0

Then navigate to MENU>OUT>CMS and select each CMS bank in use and go to the CMS part and the Greyscale part and reset to defaults, then SAVE. 

Obviously this is assuming you are not going to be using the old projector with this scaler again.


----------



## R Harkness

Gordon Fraser said:


> Easiest way is to reset the CMS and greyscale to defaults for each CMS bank in use.
> 
> You turn on service mode
> MENU 0 9 1 0
> 
> Then navigate to MENU>OUT>CMS and select each CMS bank in use and go to the CMS part and the Greyscale part and reset to defaults, then SAVE.
> 
> Obviously this is assuming you are not going to be using the old projector with this scaler again.



Thank you very much Gordon.

I have to make sure: Will those steps only re-set the calibration settings? I have some other settings I wouldn't want to lose - e.g. there is an anamorphic stretch picture mode I'd created, which is part of my remote control macro chain when switching in my anamorphic lens. I presume, also, that re-setting things as you suggest wouldn't alter anything about the video switching (I have all my video sources going through the lumagen).


----------



## Chris5

It is also possible that your old calibrated settings are closer to your new pj than resetting them altogether.


----------



## thrang

R Harkness said:


> Thank you very much Gordon.
> 
> I have to make sure: Will those steps only re-set the calibration settings? I have some other settings I wouldn't want to lose - e.g. there is an anamorphic stretch picture mode I'd created, which is part of my remote control macro chain when switching in my anamorphic lens. I presume, also, that re-setting things as you suggest wouldn't alter anything about the video switching (I have all my video sources going through the lumagen).


Rich

More than likely most of your CMS slots are untouched, meaning they are at default values (if there is no check mark next to a CMS slot, it has not been used)

You can assign an unused CMS memory slot to your output settings, and leave your calibrated memory location untouched to you can return to it if you need to. You also need to perform a save from the main menu so this new CMS setting will be retained after the Lumagen restarts.

There are many ways to set up a Lumagen, so not sure if he created different calibration settings for different inputs, or (more likely) has a single CMS calibration for all devices. See screenshot from the manual...

If you wanted to globally change all, set the input to ALL, Mem to ALL, and Mode to ALL, and then scroll the the CMS section, and set it to an unused slot (press enter), then exit out to the main menu and save it. You'd have to do this for 2D and 3D separately if you watch 3D.

To do less then global, choose less than ALL in those options...the CMS setting will be applied to whatever combination of settings you select there.

This is just for CMS and greyscale, so no affect on any anamorphic modes or audio settings.


----------



## R Harkness

Thanks for the very helpful responses! (I appreciate the info/attachment thrang).

I'll try to work through this when the time comes. At the moment, though, I've managed to just bypass my Lumagen to start checking out Blu-Ray images (using the second HDMI out of my Oppo straight to the projector).


----------



## ScottJ

thrang said:


> Rich
> 
> More than likely most of your CMS slots are untouched, meaning they are at default values (if there is no check mark next to a CMS slot, it has not been used)


Lack of a check mark means that it is not currently used, but not that it's never been touched. He should still zero out that CMS slot before assuming it's not calibrated.


----------



## audioguy

thrang said:


> No, it's still a close cousin to a DOS prompt, but it works.
> 
> I think a more polished end user menu with the the most oft used settings during viewing would be a nice option as opposed to entering the tesseract every time...


I no longer have my Lumagen (silly move but that is another story) but the primary reason I did not like the unit had to do with the interface and not the performance. And comparing the interface to DOS is an insult to DOS.

I have no interest in having a 3rd party calibrate my projector. But the learning curve based upon the current interface is not friendly to someone with my personality.

Maybe if I decide to move forward (after it is in full release)with this device, I can find someone who lives near by and pay for a day or three of consulting to teach me how to effectively use this product along with CalMan -which I still own but is an old version.

I will stay subscribed to this thread.


----------



## Mark_H

I rather like the interface. It's utilitarian nature allows me to get the job done without fuss or clutter...


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> Very quiet in here...and no firmware updates in almost a month.
> 
> Anything new - especially from a feature/performance perspective - coming out soon for the Pro?


We are working on the Menu and data-structure changes. This is taking a lot of time. As part of this we will be updating the Config Reader We have made good progress at this point, and I hope we will have a release that you can download the config from in a couple weeks.

We are trying to allow the CMS memories from older units to be uploaded to a Pro, but other config data from older units may not be up-loadable to Pro.


----------



## jrp

R Harkness said:


> Thank you very much Gordon.
> 
> I have to make sure: Will those steps only re-set the calibration settings? I have some other settings I wouldn't want to lose - e.g. there is an anamorphic stretch picture mode I'd created, which is part of my remote control macro chain when switching in my anamorphic lens. I presume, also, that re-setting things as you suggest wouldn't alter anything about the video switching (I have all my video sources going through the lumagen).


The reset in the CMS menu only affects the CMS.

In addition in the Save Menu, you can reset specific subsections of the configuration.

Make sure to do a Save after any changes.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> We are working on the Menu and data-structure changes. This is taking a lot of time. As part of this we will be updating the Config Reader We have made good progress at this point, and I hope we will have a release that you can download the config from in a couple weeks.
> 
> We are trying to allow the CMS memories from older units to be uploaded to a Pro, but other config data from older units may not be up-loadable to Pro.


Thanks Jim...is pip coming soon?


----------



## R Harkness

jrp said:


> The reset in the CMS menu only affects the CMS.
> 
> In addition in the Save Menu, you can reset specific subsections of the configuration.
> 
> Make sure to do a Save after any changes.



Thank you!


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> Thanks Jim...is pip coming soon?


PiP/PoP is a ways out. Perhaps end of Q1 or early Q2.


----------



## Chris5

Hi Jim, 

I know you have a lot more important things to do, but an audio lipsync feature would be great. Some of these new 4k TVs and projectors have shocking delays built-in.

Any time next week will be fine


----------



## MaDBeN

Chris5 said:


> I know you have a lot more important things to do, but an audio lipsync feature would be great. Some of these new 4k TVs and projectors have shocking delays built-in.


Agreed been struggling with lipsync for a while now


----------



## Mark_H

Been requesting similar myself for a few generations now...

And this isn't just a Lumagen issue, all A/V devices should be 0ms latency devices IMO, that is audio and video should always exit at the same time. In the broadcast industry this is expected. Would be nice to see it in the consumer market, but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## uderman

I have seen the block diagram of the radiance units somewhere before(more detailed than the one in the manual). Audio signal path is directly fed into the outputs, never goes through the fpga, audio processing isn't possible unfortunately. Video can be delayed if audio arrives late but usually not the case. Jim can verify this. 

When is the production model expected? Beta discount is very generous for those before it ends.


----------



## thrang

uderman said:


> I have seen the block diagram of the radiance units somewhere before(more detailed than the one in the manual). Audio signal path is directly fed into the outputs, never goes through the fpga, audio processing isn't possible unfortunately. Video can be delayed if audio arrives late but usually not the case. Jim can verify this.
> 
> When is the production model expected? Beta discount is very generous for those before it ends.


The hardware is production according the Lumagen...the software is in beta.


----------



## uderman

Sorry I meant the production software and the end of beta discount.


----------



## LJG

Which, if any, of the Radiance models are able to take a 2160 UHD input and output 1080P60?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

LJG said:


> Which, if any, of the Radiance models are able to take a 2160 UHD input and output 1080P60?


Any of the Pro models that this thread is about can take in an UHD signal and output it as 1080P.


----------



## uderman

If you want to downscale 4K to 2K, you will need an HDfury integrator or the Gefen HDCP stripper. All UHD signals so far require HDCP2.2 which 2K displays lack.


----------



## LJG

Gordon Fraser said:


> Any of the Pro models that this thread is about can take in an UHD signal and output it as 1080P.


Thank you


----------



## LJG

uderman said:


> If you want to downscale 4K to 2K, you will need an HDfury integrator or the Gefen HDCP stripper. All UHD signals so far require HDCP2.2 which 2K displays lack.


Yes I am aware of the hdcp 2.2 requirement thank you....


----------



## R Harkness

This isn't a fast enough moving thread to probably save my butt tonight but: I've been testing my new JVC RS600 projector attached via HDMI directly to my Blu-Ray player for the last week or so and it's worked fine. (It's replacing a last generation RS57 JVC).

Tonight I tried to simply swap it into my system, hooking it up to the HDMI cable that goes to my Lumagen 2041, which does all my video switching. When I do this, the projector crashes - no picture, can't access menus, can't even turn it off. When I unplug the HDMI cable, the projector becomes responsive again.

Is there any suggestions as to what might be happening or for some troubleshooting?

More info: When I first hooked up my Oppo Blu-Ray player to the new JVC I didn't get a picture. Turned out I had to switch the HDMI signal to "B" edid type. This is apparently for "legacy equipment compatibiity" as the JVC has the latest HDMI standard for UHD. That solved the problem for the blu-ray player. I would think the same setting should be used for the Lumagen doing the switching? It all worked for my previous JVC projector.


----------



## thrang

R Harkness said:


> This isn't a fast enough moving thread to probably save my butt tonight but: I've been testing my new JVC RS600 projector attached via HDMI directly to my Blu-Ray player for the last week or so and it's worked fine. (It's replacing a last generation RS57 JVC).
> 
> Tonight I tried to simply swap it into my system, hooking it up to the HDMI cable that goes to my Lumagen 2041, which does all my video switching. When I do this, the projector crashes - no picture, can't access menus, can't even turn it off. When I unplug the HDMI cable, the projector becomes responsive again.
> 
> Is there any suggestions as to what might be happening or for some troubleshooting?
> 
> More info: When I first hooked up my Oppo Blu-Ray player to the new JVC I didn't get a picture. Turned out I had to switch the HDMI signal to "B" edid type. This is apparently for "legacy equipment compatibiity" as the JVC has the latest HDMI standard for UHD. That solved the problem for the blu-ray player. I would think the same setting should be used for the Lumagen doing the switching? It all worked for my previous JVC projector.


Rich

Trying to understand what you mean by "simply swap into my system"...trying to insert the Lumagen between the Oppo and the new JVC?

Is your Lumagen firmware up to date?

Is the issue with the Oppo as a source? In other words, if you just connect the Lumagen to the projector without the Oppo or any other source connected, does the projector lock up, or can you at least operate the projector and call up the Lumagen menus?

You might also want to try changing power up sequence of your three devices and see if the condition changes.


----------



## R Harkness

thrang said:


> Rich
> 
> Trying to understand what you mean by "simply swap into my system"...trying to insert the Lumagen between the Oppo and the new JVC?
> 
> Is your Lumagen firmware up to date?
> 
> Is the issue with the Oppo as a source? In other words, if you just connect the Lumagen to the projector without the Oppo or any other source connected, does the projector lock up, or can you at least operate the projector and call up the Lumagen menus?
> 
> You might also want to try changing power up sequence of your three devices and see if the condition changes.


Thrang.

I mean: I've simply hooked up the new projector to the same HDMI cable as the old projector. So now it's hooked to the HDMI cable that goes to the Lumagen (which is video switching my cable box, blu ray player, etc). When I do this, the projector becomes unresponsive.

Wheres when I had the new projector hooked up directly to my Oppo Blu Ray player, it worked fine.

My HDMI cables are 45 feet long, (the best ones Blue Jeans cable sells) and have never had trouble passing any signals, 3D, 4k or otherwise, so I don't think it's a failure of the cable.


----------



## thrang

R Harkness said:


> Thrang.
> 
> I mean: I've simply hooked up the new projector to the same HDMI cable as the old projector. So now it's hooked to the HDMI cable that goes to the Lumagen (which is video switching my cable box, blu ray player, etc). When I do this, the projector becomes unresponsive.
> 
> Wheres when I had the new projector hooked up directly to my Oppo Blu Ray player, it worked fine.
> 
> My HDMI cables are 45 feet long, (the best ones Blue Jeans cable sells) and have never had trouble passing any signals, 3D, 4k or otherwise, so I don't think it's a failure of the cable.


Just the Lumagen to the projector...does it lock up?

If you don't have time to check firmware, do you have a dual output Oppo? If so, connect the projector HDMI back to the Oppo, and the second HDMI out for audio to your receiver/processor, which I'm presuming is near your Oppo...


----------



## R Harkness

I had to bypass the Lumagen, run the HDMI cable directly from my cable box to the projector to watch the fights tonight. At least I got a picture happening for that.

I'll have to re-visit this, and hopefully Jim can offer some suggestions for troubleshooting for when I hook it back up to the Lumagen. Thanks again.


----------



## Chris5

45ft / 15m is right on the edge of usable hdmi, maybe the input of the new pj is more sensitive to signal degradation. I had to change hdmi lead to a hybrid optical lead to get 4k out at that distance. The lumagen output stages are driven differently from old kit and top quality leads are needed.


----------



## p5browne

Chris5 said:


> 45ft / 15m is right on the edge of usable hdmi, maybe the input of the new pj is more sensitive to signal degradation. I had to change hdmi lead to a hybrid optical lead to get 4k out at that distance. The lumagen output stages are driven differently from old kit and top quality leads are needed.


After all, we're talking `LOW' voltages, not 110. 
It's usually recommended a max of 20 feet, after that an amplifier is needed. 
Also at issue, the longer the run, the more sensitive one has to be to any electrical wires running in parallel causing noise and interference.
Plus with all the interference emitting dimmer switches, electronics, and apparatuses wanting to call home, may also cause degrading of the signal. 
Lastly, corrosion does start on contacts over a period of time. Re-inserting plugs several times may help with this.
Addendum - some contacts may have gotten damaged in the transition.


----------



## thrang

Well, it seems more the new RS600 than anything else, reading what Rich is saying...the existing Lumagen and previous JVC seem to work flawlessly with the same cabling. Or there is some setting in the Lumagen that is not right for newer JVC, though I can't imagine what that is at the moment...


----------



## jcarle

R Harkness said:


> This isn't a fast enough moving thread to probably save my butt tonight but: I've been testing my new JVC RS600 projector attached via HDMI directly to my Blu-Ray player for the last week or so and it's worked fine. (It's replacing a last generation RS57 JVC).
> 
> Tonight I tried to simply swap it into my system, hooking it up to the HDMI cable that goes to my Lumagen 2041, which does all my video switching. When I do this, the projector crashes - no picture, can't access menus, can't even turn it off. When I unplug the HDMI cable, the projector becomes responsive again.
> 
> Is there any suggestions as to what might be happening or for some troubleshooting?
> 
> More info: When I first hooked up my Oppo Blu-Ray player to the new JVC I didn't get a picture. Turned out I had to switch the HDMI signal to "B" edid type. This is apparently for "legacy equipment compatibiity" as the JVC has the latest HDMI standard for UHD. That solved the problem for the blu-ray player. I would think the same setting should be used for the Lumagen doing the switching? It all worked for my previous JVC projector.


Try switching back to Edit A with the Lumagen in the chain. I have the JVC with a Mini 3D, HDMI 1, Edit 1 which works for me.

John


----------



## R Harkness

jcarle said:


> Try switching back to Edit A with the Lumagen in the chain. I have the JVC with a Mini 3D, HDMI 1, Edit 1 which works for me.
> 
> John


Thanks, I'll try that.


----------



## Surfdrifter

check also the second HDMI input of your jvc. Might connect better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> I have seen the block diagram of the radiance units somewhere before(more detailed than the one in the manual). Audio signal path is directly fed into the outputs, never goes through the fpga, audio processing isn't possible unfortunately. Video can be delayed if audio arrives late but usually not the case. Jim can verify this.
> 
> When is the production model expected? Beta discount is very generous for those before it ends.


As noted the Radiance products do not have an audio delay feature. We decided it best to let the audio processor do the audio delay.

For the Radiance Pro models (only) we are considering a video delay. This would be used with audio processors that have a long audio latency for uncompressed audio format(s) that exceed the base video processing delay. I am not sure how many audio processors have this longer audio latency, but I know that there are some that do.

=== 

We do not have a date for going to production-software-release. It is a ways out though. Note: As mentioned elsewhere, we believe the hardware for the Radiance Pro to be at production status already.


----------



## jrp

R Harkness said:


> Thrang.
> 
> I mean: I've simply hooked up the new projector to the same HDMI cable as the old projector. So now it's hooked to the HDMI cable that goes to the Lumagen (which is video switching my cable box, blu ray player, etc). When I do this, the projector becomes unresponsive.
> 
> Wheres when I had the new projector hooked up directly to my Oppo Blu Ray player, it worked fine.
> 
> My HDMI cables are 45 feet long, (the best ones Blue Jeans cable sells) and have never had trouble passing any signals, 3D, 4k or otherwise, so I don't think it's a failure of the cable.


If you are willing, temporarily move the Radiance to where the projector is and use a 6 foot cable from the Radiance to the Projector and let the Radiance deal with the long HDMI cable. Assuming this works as I expect, then it show a HDMI cable marginality. Not that it has gone bad, but that the edge rates from the 2041 are too fast for it. For HDMI transmission-lines, it is the edge rate that determines how good the HDMI cable needs to be. We have had a number of systems that needed a faster HDMI cable using the 2XXX (and now 4XXX) processor verses older Radiance models (e.g. the Mini-3D). 

On the Sony projectors Input 2 is much better than Input 1 in our, and our customers, experience. There might be something similar in your projector. So you might want to try a different input.

I recommend always using an active HDMI cable (or a passive and one of our extenders) for 4k HDMI output chips (like in the Radiance 2XXX and 4XXX units, even when running 2k) for lengths above 15 feet or so. I have been recommending the Monoprice Redmere cables as they have helped in a number of systems and are not very expensive. Other cable vendors active cables may be fine as well, but I have been using Monorprice since they work well.


----------



## thrang

Yes, have a 35 or 40 foot Redmere to my 1100 from the Pro and its rock solid

What is odd for Rich is it seems the Radiance and his previous JVC worked fine with his same cable.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> Yes, have a 35 or 40 foot Redmere to my 1100 from the Pro and its rock solid
> 
> What is odd for Rich is it seems the Radiance and his previous JVC worked fine with his same cable.


Good point.

The HDMI connection is a "system" encompassing the HDMI output chip, HDMI PCB transmission line design in the source, the HDMI output connector, the HDMI cable (plug, cable, plug all have an effect), the HDMI input connector, the HDMI transmission lines on the receiver PCB, and the HDMI receiver chip.

Changing the HDMI input connector, HDMI transmission lines on the receiver PCB, and/or HDMI receiver chip can easily affect the connection. We have seen that some projectors and TVs do not have as good an input layout as desired to do well as the end point of a long HDMI cable. This is why an active cable can help a lot. It effectively gives the projector/TV only a few inch connection to deal with.

When I design an HDMI input I try my best to keep the PCB traces very short and as close to the specified differential, and single-ended, impedance as possible. For example the input traces in the Radiance Pro 444X units are 7 mm long (about 1/4 inch), including the input ESD device. I have seen 3 or 4 inch long traces on what appears to be a general purpose FR4 PCB in some projectors/TVs, and in my opinion this is too long. It puts a discontinuity (the connector and its pads) 4 inches from the receiver chip instead of right at the receiver chip as desired. In addition commonly used FR4 PCB material does not have ideal impedance control, and the differential and single-ended impedance can actually vary some from unit to unit with longer traces.

Of course having some trace length is unavoidable if an HDMI input chip has multiple inputs. Even then I try to keep trace length to about an inch. I think much longer than this is asking to have long HDMI cable issues.

Not sure how I ended up on my soap-box about HDMI input design, but I will get off it now.


----------



## R Harkness

Well, a bunch of this is going over my head somewhat. Moving my Lumagen to my projector location is a very, very daunting idea given how my system is cabled and set up and programmed. I want to try anything I can before having to re-cable or do stuff like that.

It's very strange: the Lumagen worked fine with my previous JVC projector, and the Beledon HDMI cable - their best for long runs - has been very robust over it's 45 feet. It passes 1080p, 3D and even 4K (upscaled output from the 2041) signals effortlessly. And the HDMI cable passes 1080p fine to the new projector if bypassing the Lumagen. Why then would only switching projectors cause this problem in the chain? Do I understand that Jim is implying the new JVC's HDMI input is "not as good" as the last one in terms of receiving signals? (That would be especially weird, since HDMI reliability was one of the things JVC worked on and touted as improved in these models, and more reliable syncing was reported by people like Cine4home in testing them).


----------



## stanger89

R Harkness said:


> It's very strange: the Lumagen worked fine with my previous JVC projector, and the Beledon HDMI cable - their best for long runs - has been very robust over it's 45 feet. It passes 1080p, 3D and even 4K (upscaled output from the 2041) signals effortlessly. And the HDMI cable passes 1080p fine to the new projector if bypassing the Lumagen. Why then would only switching projectors cause this problem in the chain? Do I understand that Jim is implying the new JVC's HDMI input is "not as good" as the last one in terms of receiving signals? (That would be especially weird, since HDMI reliability was one of the things JVC worked on and touted as improved in these models, and more reliable syncing was reported by people like Cine4home in testing them).


I had a lot of problems with HDMI I put my AVM50V in my system. Cables that "passed 1080p fine" now had terrible handshaking problems. The reality is the ability to pass 1080p is not a sufficient test for whether the cables are good enough in all circumstances. I'll also throw out that belden cables (I assume you're talking Blue Jeans Cable) aren't high speed certified at 45 feet, they're only certified high speed to 25 feet.

If I had to interpret what Jim is saying, I'd say this. The 4K output Lumagens produce signals with higher frequency requirements than older Lumagen's with 1080p chips (they probably run at higher internal frequencies). Further the new JVCs have 18Gbps chips vs the older JVC's with 10.2Gbps chips, these are necessarily more sensitive, but probably in both good (being able to pick up 18Gbps) and bad (less forgiving to marginal cabling). 

It might be worth trying a cable actually certified High Speed at 45 feet, like an active cable.


----------



## R Harkness

Thanks Stranger89, that does help clarify things!

Ironically, one of the reasons I went for the 2041 was to verify my cabling was good for 4K (since I could do a test outputting 4K). Since it "worked" I thought, great, I'm good! Apparently not. :-(

I've had lots of suggestions to try in fixing the issue. Time to try some of them.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 120215- Couple of important changes to input menu which now allow selection of input settings based on input resolution including 4K or Cinema 4K (4096 pixels wide vs. 3840). We had to change up the input menu a little to accommodate this so now under "Input" there is an "Input Setup" menu which assigns different input configs based on the input resolution. There is also a separate input configuration menu where you make settings for the different "In Configs". So the Input menu is now similar to the output side where we have an Output Setup menu that selects CMS, Style, etc based on the input mode. Also added many more modes to the Output Setup menu so you can differentiate 4K and many others for selecting the output settings. Note: due to the input menu changes it's possible you may have to redo a couple of input settings if your setup was complex enough. For this reason you may want to download the new config utility that now supports the Pro and save your configuration first. Several bugfixes for loss of output video under certain conditions. Some other smaller bugfixes. Couple small tweaks to the temperature readout in Fan menu. Added direct code to set input HDCP to 1.X ("menu 0811") or back to the default of HDCP 2.2 ("menu 0821")---useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

R Harkness said:


> 1)Moving my Lumagen to my projector location is a very, very daunting idea given how my system is cabled and set up and programmed.
> 
> ... 2) Do I understand that Jim is implying the new JVC's HDMI input is "not as good" as the last one in terms of receiving signals?.


1) My suggestion was to move the Radiance as a "temporary test" and not a permanent change. So no reprogramming, just move it, test it, and move it back.

2) Not at all. My comments on HDMI input design were meant to be generic and not in any way specific to JVC. As I mentioned the connection is a system and it might just mean a change that is within spec in the "system" (in this case the JVC input) changes the transmission line reflection points, etc. just enough to cause issues.

For the 18 GHz chips, it may be that the chip's design itself is different due to needing to work with 18 GHz, and this is making it more sensitive to HDMI cable/connector/impedance issues.


----------



## jrp

stanger89 said:


> ... If I had to interpret what Jim is saying, I'd say this. The 4K output Lumagens produce signals with higher frequency requirements than older Lumagen's with 1080p chips (they probably run at higher internal frequencies).


To clarify: The frequency of the video (i.e. resolution and rate) can affect locking on to the HDMI signal. However, what I meant was the "edge-rate" (also called slew-rate) of the signals for 4k output chips must be faster. The edge rate is how fast a signal transitions from a logic-high to a logic-low, and has nothing directly to do with the frequency of the signal (resolution/rate), other than supporting higher resolution/rate modes means they must be faster.

Said another way: The faster edge rate required of 4k output chips to be able to work at 4k puts more demands on the HDMI cables even when running at 1080p60.


----------



## stanger89

Yup, that's what I was trying to say, I was thinking "sample rate" in my post, thinking of the "Frequency" the HDMI chips run at to create the waveform, which could be independent of the actual data rate.


----------



## R Harkness

jrp said:


> 1) My suggestion was to move the Radiance as a "temporary test" and not a permanent change. So no reprogramming, just move it, test it, and move it back.
> 
> 2) Not at all. My comments on HDMI input design were meant to be generic and not in any way specific to JVC. As I mentioned the connection is a system and it might just mean a change that is within spec in the "system" (in this case the JVC input) changes the transmission line reflection points, etc. just enough to cause issues.
> 
> For the 18 GHz chips, it may be that the chip's design itself is different due to needing to work with 18 GHz, and this is making it more sensitive to HDMI cable/connector/impedance issues.


jrp,

Thanks. I understood your suggestion was to move the Lumagen as a test - I just mean that given the way my system is cabled, this is a very daunting task. 
But I'm running out of options so I might have to try it.

So the hypothesis here is that the new HDMI input of the new JVC projector is putting different demands on my HDMI cabling, in particular it's ability to communicate with the Lumagen, correct?
(Because the cable already works with the Blu-Ray player only, so it has to be an issue between the Lumagen and Projector).

Just to be sure: I would move the Lumagen 2041 to the projector location, run the long HDMI cable run from the output of my Oppo Blu-Ray player into the appropriate input of the Lumagen, and use a 6 foot cable run from the Lumagen out to the Projector. And if I get a picture working ok, that suggests the problem is the cable and I should upgrade the cable?

In which case, I guess I'd try a monoprice active cable. 

What about Cat 6/7 cables? Would those be likely to solve the issue?

(BTW, if I do move the Lumagen and still don't get sync to the projector, what then? Would it still be a cabling issue?)

Many thanks.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 120315- Fix for incomplete display of output modes in output setup menu in 120215 firmware.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## Chris5

Using mine to feed 1080i into 4k oled. I don't know if it's my imagination but I think the image quality has improved with 120305


----------



## R Harkness

Ok, the first thing I want to try is to update my Lumagen 2041's firmware. The problem is:

1. I've never done this before.
2. Since I can't access the Lumagen (hooking it up freezes my projector) I have to do this "blind." I can't check what firmware I have, or see the Lumagen menus. Can I still update the firmware without accessing the Lumagen menus - e.g. using the USB update method?
And, do the firmware updates only work with PCs?


----------



## Chris5

PCs only - yes afaik. You don't need to see the lumagen. Just plug in the usb lead. Download the update to your pc. Run the update exe. Hit start (although I always also select 'force update' radio button first). 2 bars show download progress. Lumagen powers off at the end. You power lumagen back on. Done.

Edit.
You will need to configure the com port option under windows device manager so that the update software knows which virtual serial port to use. I can't remember if this is a built in windows feature or that you need an external software driver. Maybe someone else can remember.


----------



## jrp

Chris5 is correct that you do not need to see the Radiance image to update. I suggest doing the Boot Mode Update as described int eh Tech Tip that comes with each update. Just load the latest update.

You do need to configure the COM port as Chris5 mentions as well. With the USB to serial adapter plugged in to the PC, look under Control Panel, System, Device Manager, under COM & LPT. Make sure it is set to 9600 BAUD, 1 Stop, No parity and select that port in teh update program.


----------



## jrp

R Harkness said:


> jrp,
> 
> Thanks. I understood your suggestion was to move the Lumagen as a test - I just mean that given the way my system is cabled, this is a very daunting task.
> But I'm running out of options so I might have to try it.
> 
> So the hypothesis here is that the new HDMI input of the new JVC projector is putting different demands on my HDMI cabling, in particular it's ability to communicate with the Lumagen, correct?
> ...
> 
> Just to be sure: I would move the Lumagen 2041 to the projector location, run the long HDMI cable run from the output of my Oppo Blu-Ray player into the appropriate input of the Lumagen, and use a 6 foot cable run from the Lumagen out to the Projector. And if I get a picture working ok, that suggests the problem is the cable and I should upgrade the cable?
> 
> What about Cat 6/7 cables? Would those be likely to solve the issue?
> 
> (BTW, if I do move the Lumagen and still don't get sync to the projector, what then? Would it still be a cabling issue?)
> 
> Many thanks.


You might first pick up a Monoprice Redmere cable of the correct length. I suspect it would solve your issue with less work than moving the Radiance.

Your synopsis of my suggestion to temporarily move the Radiance near the projector is correct.

I am not a big fan of CAT extenders. However, that might be an option for resolving your issue. I prefer an active HDMI cable, one of our extender at the projector end of a passive cable, or a fiber cable (e.g. Celerity).

If this testing does not give positive results, then we should talk more. Perhaps your Radiance has developed an issue. If you have a TV you can put near the Radiance, see if it gives you a picture (assuming this is less work than moving the Radiance to the projector) as a way to confirm the Radiance is still working.

Did I mention trying a factory reset to make sure there is not some configuration settings preventing operation? The Factory Reset is temporary until you go to STBY, unless you do a Save after the reset.

Please feel free to call us for support (503-574-2211).


----------



## R Harkness

Thanks again very much JimP (and Chris5)!

I'll try updating the firmware. Fortunately, though this is a "Mac House," I had bought a PC laptop a couple years ago for these kinds of things. 

Though, can I also do the suggested factory re-set without seeing the on-screen Lumagen menu?


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 120415- Fixup of initial temperature displayed when pressing "Ok" on remote to display status. Fixup of overlapping messages on fan setting menu in 120215-120315 firmware. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## sillysally

R Harkness said:


> Though, can I also do the suggested factory re-set without seeing the on-screen Lumagen menu?


Use your remote.
Menu>0999

Don't forget to save after reset, or next time you turn on your 2041 it will go back to your settings.

ss


----------



## R Harkness

sillysally said:


> Use your remote.
> Menu>0999
> 
> Don't forget to save after reset, or next time you turn on your 2041 it will go back to your settings.
> 
> ss


Ok.

Just to make sure, this won't change anything to do with the video switching right? I mean, as long as all my sources are plugged in the same it shouldn't re-set anything there? It's been a couple years since it was set up, and I can't remember if there was any setting up I had to do in terms of assigning sources which could be wiped out?


----------



## sillysally

R Harkness said:


> Ok.
> 
> Just to make sure, this won't change anything to do with the video switching right? I mean, as long as all my sources are plugged in the same it shouldn't re-set anything there? It's been a couple years since it was set up, and I can't remember if there was any setting up I had to do in terms of assigning sources which could be wiped out?


Not sure what you are asking. But if its internal settings in your 2041, Factor reset means back to factory settings.
ss


----------



## SJHT

I have a Lumagen Pro and am getting a RS600 (replacing my RS55) next week. I also have a huge Belkin HDMI cable running from the Pro to my RS55. Been rock solid. Am I going to have issues and/or need a different cable? Thanks. SJ

This is what I have 50 foot:BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/hdmi-cable.htm


----------



## Pannus

I just hooked up my 600 today. It's a no-go with the Lumagen 2021 in the chain. Works fine when it's out. I have 30ft of HDMI between it and the 600.


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## p5browne

http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities

Utility 1.9 Available


----------



## lovingdvd

Sounds like it could be very useful if Lumagen was able to get one of these new JVC units in their lab for testing.


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## Chris5

Not really, it's a long length with plain hdmi, it's always going to be hit or miss. Either have a stab at a newer higher quality cable or go hdmi optical. Simple. That is what I had to do. Jim and co have got more important stuff to be doing that will improve functionality on the Pro for everyone.


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## Gordon Fraser

Indeed.. i have used a Pro with an X7000 and X9000 with no problems. Any issues are cable related.


----------



## lovingdvd

Gordon Fraser said:


> Indeed.. i have used a Pro with an X7000 and X9000 with no problems. Any issues are cable related.


Can you be certain of that? As an example, I believe in Rich's case he had the previous generation JVC which worked fine and when he replaced it with a 9000 the issue happened. @R Harkness can you confirm?


----------



## R Harkness

lovingdvd said:


> Can you be certain of that? As an example, I believe in Rich's case he had the previous generation JVC which worked fine and when he replaced it with a 9000 the issue happened. @R Harkness can you confirm?


That's correct.

Though I'm going to try an active cable to see if that fixes things.


----------



## sillysally

I tried the monoprice high speed RedMere HDMI 10' and 6' foot run. Cable works but poorly shielded so it added a little noise to my PQ. Back using Blue Jean HDMI.

ss


----------



## sillysally

I tried the monoprice high speed RedMere HDMI 10' and 6' foot run. Cable works but poorly shielded so it added a little noise to my PQ. Back using Blue Jean HDMI.

ss


----------



## lovingdvd

R Harkness said:


> That's correct.
> 
> Though I'm going to try an active cable to see if that fixes things.





Gordon Fraser said:


> Indeed.. i have used a Pro with an X7000 and X9000 with no problems. Any issues are cable related.


With Rich's confirmation that all he did was switch out the projector with no cable changes, and the JVC RS57 works just fine with the Radiance but his JVC RS600 does not - with everything else being equal, means to me that it is not cable related. Wouldn't you agree? I'd like to know what Lumagen is planning to do to address it. Is is not just Rich having an issue. I'd like to consider a 4K Radiance but would want to be sure this issue was solved first.


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## thrang

Using a Pro as I test an RS600, 40 foot Redmere cable, zero issues.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

lovingdvd said:


> With Rich's confirmation that all he did was switch out the projector with no cable changes, and the JVC RS57 works just fine with the Radiance but his JVC RS600 does not - with everything else being equal, means to me that it is not cable related. Wouldn't you agree? I'd like to know what Lumagen is planning to do to address it. Is is not just Rich having an issue. I'd like to consider a 4K Radiance but would want to be sure this issue was solved first.



The X7000 i installed i had at home. I am using a 6m long generic hi-speed HDMI cable with my own Pro. I tested the unit here and it worked perfectly. I then took the unit to it's new home where it was replacing an X500 that was working with the clients Pro using the cables embedded in his ceiling. It would not work. I installed a lumagen hdmi extender ( at the wrong end of the chain due to power issues) and 1080p worked but 4K would still drop out. The client is going to fit optical fibre cable in place of the current long run of old hdmi copper cable. 

I installed an X9000 in a dealers demo room with his demo Pro using 3m long ( i think) audioquest 4K rated HDMI cable. Worked fine. So from this evidence i am pretty much sure that there is no problem with compatibility between the new X series JVC's and Lumagen Radiance Pro and that anyone having problems is likely up against cable issues. Of course, it is always a good idea to feedback any problems to Lumagen themselves so they can understand if there may be something else going on.


----------



## stanger89

sillysally said:


> I tried the monoprice high speed RedMere HDMI 10' and 6' foot run. Cable works but poorly shielded so it added a little noise to my PQ. Back using Blue Jean HDMI.
> 
> ss


HDMI doesn't work like that, the signal either gets there or doesn't. When you see errors/problems with an HDMI cable it's obvious (sparkles, or nothing) it's not "a little noise". Sounds to me like placebo effect, maybe you weren't expecting the Monoprice cable to look as good.



lovingdvd said:


> With Rich's confirmation that all he did was switch out the projector with no cable changes, and the JVC RS57 works just fine with the Radiance but his JVC RS600 does not - with everything else being equal, means to me that it is not cable related. Wouldn't you agree?


Not necessarily, I can't find the post right now, but as Jim has said, HDMI is a system. The Projector, the cable, the Lumagen, even devices plugged into the Lumagen, everything from the HDMI chip on the source device to the HDMI chip on the display are part of a system formed by the HDMI connection. Anything in the system can cause a failure. On the face of it, yes, I agree it appears that the RS600 is the "problem". Well first things first, we're assuming the RS600 isn't DOA (I assume Rich has tried this). 

I postulate that the cable between the Lumagen and the RS600 was marginal in the first place (remember, as far as I know *there are no passive HDMI cables rated for High Speed/Category 2, longer than 25ft*, Rich's cable is 40?). Apparently the HDMI chips in the RS57, maybe due to being less sensitive (10.2Gbps/HDMI 1.4) were able to handle that marginal signal, where as the new RS600, with it's more sensitive 18Gbps/HDMI 2.0 chips cannot successfully sync.

HDMI (cable) failures are not always in the way you would expect. I had been running 50' HDMI cables in my system and it worked fine, passing 1080p60 no problem. Then I got an Anthem AVM50V. All the sudden I had enormous handshake issues. Ironically I still got a picture, which initially made me think my cables were fine. But I took the advice of folks here like Jim, and those from Anthem, and replaced my cables with known-certified cables (25' BJC Series-1) and made sure I had no cables in my system shorter than 6 feet, and it solved my handshaking issues.


----------



## sillysally

stanger89 said:


> HDMI doesn't work like that, the signal either gets there or doesn't. When you see errors/problems with an HDMI cable it's obvious (sparkles, or nothing) it's not "a little noise". Sounds to me like placebo effect, maybe you weren't expecting the Monoprice cable to look as good.
> .


Yes I know the stock reply that you gave. 

But the fact remains the cable was picking up noise and that was manifested in the low light scenes. 
However I am not saying that everybody will have this issue with added noise, it really depends on the locale that you live in. 

I have a display with 0 black levels, that I calibrate using my Jeti 1211 to profile my K10-A using the display to profile off of. 
I have a 2041 that I only use as a reference triplet pattern generator to run reports with. I use madVR/TPG (Linear APL to overcome ASBL) as a reference triplet pattern generator for LightSpace, ArgyllCMS and Calman 5xxx. 

So unless you have a 0 black level display that has a infinite contrast level and live in a area like I do, please don't tell me it's just a "placebo effect".

As far as connecting a 1.2 source to a 2.0 HDMI display, I don't have a issue connecting with Blue Jean or momoprice HDMI cable. However my HDMI runs are from 6' to 10'.


----------



## ScottJ

sillysally said:


> However I am not saying that everybody will have this issue with added noise, it really depends on the locale that you live in.


What about one's locale might affect how an HDMI cable works? Higher altitude with more gamma rays? Lower altitude with higher air pressure? Humidity? Lack of humidity?

I would sincerely like to understand what it is about locale that you have in mind.


----------



## thrang

ScottJ said:


> What about one's locale might affect how an HDMI cable works? Higher altitude with more gamma rays? Lower altitude with higher air pressure? Humidity? Lack of humidity?
> 
> I would sincerely like to understand what it is about locale that you have in mind.


Perhaps he has a lot of static electricity in his room...


----------



## sillysally

ScottJ said:


> I would sincerely like to understand what it is about locale that you have in mind.


Radio tower. 

ss


----------



## ScottJ

sillysally said:


> Radio tower.
> 
> ss


I see. Unfortunately, as stanger89 explained, radio interference in an HDMI cable would not result in "a little noise". There is no scientific explanation for your observations, except for placebo effect.


----------



## Chris5

Guys, come on. Give ss a break. His word should be good enough, no need to pointlessly argue with him.


----------



## sillysally

ScottJ said:


> I see. Unfortunately, as stanger89 explained, radio interference in an HDMI cable would not result in "a little noise". There is no scientific explanation for your observations, except for placebo effect.


Please reread that post, he is simply quoting from HDMI cable 101. Way before they started to use chips in some HDMI cables.


----------



## SJHT

Chris5 said:


> Using mine to feed 1080i into 4k oled. I don't know if it's my imagination but I think the image quality has improved with 120305


Watching 1080i from Dish and I noticed the same thing. Seems a bit improved with the latest update.... SJ


----------



## stanger89

sillysally said:


> Please reread that post, he is simply quoting from HDMI cable 101. Way before they started to use chips in some HDMI cables.


It's got nothing to do with chips or no chips. Small changes in the analog waveform (which can happen due to interference/noise picked up by any cable acting as an antenna) simply do not result in small (visible) changes in the overall digital signal. Noise would cause a digital 1 to be received as a 0 or vise versa. This is equally likely to happen with any bit in the signal, be it the bit that controls the difference between digital 16 (black) and digital 17 (the least significan bit) or the bit that controls the difference between digital 16 (black) and digital 144 (the most significant bit). This is why when HDMI cables fail. you see obvious failures, like sparkles. This is also why when your OTA signal degrades, you get blocking, not the snow of the old days.

In order for cable noise to cause subtle video noise, the change, the signal noise would have to be correlated to the LSB of each pixel value. The odds of the LSB being changed in any given pixel (set of 8 bits) is 1 in 8. The odds of every LSB being changed in one second of 1080p video is 1/ 8 ^ ( 3 (colors/pixel) * 1920 * 1080 pixels * 24 frames/sec ), or 1/8 ^ 149299200, or well, windows calculator can't calculate it, it's too small of a number. Even if we assume only 0.1% of pixels are changed the probability is still incalculable by windows calculator.


----------



## ScottJ

sillysally said:


> Please reread that post, he is simply quoting from HDMI cable 101. Way before they started to use chips in some HDMI cables.


While theoretically possible for an active device inside the cable to decode the TMDS signal, look for near-black pixels, subtly corrupt those pixels to add what appears to be noise, and then recode the TMDS signal, the chip would have to be deliberately designed to do this. It would be a Darbee-like device at that point. Of course the Redmere cables do not do this.


----------



## sillysally

ScottJ said:


> While theoretically possible for an active device inside the cable to decode the TMDS signal, look for near-black pixels, subtly corrupt those pixels to add what appears to be noise, and then recode the TMDS signal, the chip would have to be deliberately designed to do this. It would be a Darbee-like device at that point. Of course the Redmere cables do not do this.


Can you link me to the test results for this cable.
http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10255&cs_id=1025507&p_id=9167&seq=1&format=2

Now maybe this could be the cause of what I was seeing. 
"Note also that only one Active HDMI cable should be present in any single cable run, even if using a switch, splitter, or matrix. Connecting multiple active HDMI cables in series will cause them to fail to reliably transmit the video signal because each is trying to do the same thing."

Sorry for the OT, if you like you can simply PM me so we can take this off line.


----------



## SJHT

I ended up replacing my old Belkin HDMI cable with a new 50' Redmere Cabernet Ultra. No issues between the pro and my new JVC RS600. May need to work on audio delay when running 4K. Seems like it would be easier if the pro had some options on this as it is my primary hub for my setup. Often resolution/input specific requirements for the audio delay it looks like. Once the pro connects to the projector, switching sources is fast. SJ


----------



## SJHT

sillysally said:


> Can you link me to the test results for this cable.
> http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10255&cs_id=1025507&p_id=9167&seq=1&format=2
> 
> Now maybe this could be the cause of what I was seeing.
> "Note also that only one Active HDMI cable should be present in any single cable run, even if using a switch, splitter, or matrix. Connecting multiple active HDMI cables in series will cause them to fail to reliably transmit the video signal because each is trying to do the same thing."
> 
> Sorry for the OT, if you like you can simply PM me so we can take this off line.


Just to clarify about active HDMI cables... I can't do one from my Bluray player to the Lumagen pro and another one from the pro to my projector? Thanks. SJ


----------



## sshearer

SJHT said:


> Just to clarify about active HDMI cables... I can't do one from my Bluray player to the Lumagen pro and another one from the pro to my projector? Thanks. SJ


The short answer is yes you can use two active HDMI cables in this instance. I had a very interesting and informative conversation with Jim Peterson on the Lumagen Radiance Pro beta forum on this issue as Monoprice had also told me that I could not use 2 active cables in this situation. If you have access to that forum, take a look at that forum under the heading Losing HDMI Connection (http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/foru...&rid=25823&S=21262d177cc24d48cdfc6cc13b8b50f9).


I learned a lot about HDMI and active cables from Jim.


Scott


----------



## tspotorno

*Ongoing Issues*

I have had a 2143 for several years. Working great.

Upgraded to Pro cpl months ago on tradeup program, still have the 2143 cause of the issues with the Pro.

It does not appear that the pro sync's with the Sony VW1100 well, I am plagued with a white snow blinking screen...

It usually happens when I update the firmware, I just moved to the latest firmware and now I cannot get the two devices to sync, the only thing I see on the display is white snow that blinks off and on.

Things I've tried:

1. Unplug unit, and load firmware in the first 10 sec.
2. Swap cables, luckily I have 3 hdmi cables going to the projector.
3. Unplug unit, then upon restart issue Menu 0999 to force a factory default of the settings.
4. Unplug projector, lumagen, every device in the chain etc, power everything down then replug everything in and still cannot get rid of the white blinking snow... (This has worked in the past)

While I get snow on the projector, the audio output from the pro to my RS20i works perfectly. So I know I am getting a signal.

I am using the Monoprice Cabernet Ultra CL2 Active cables to the projector.

Not sure if there is anything else I can try... Will try to call their support on Tuesday, unless someone has an idea on what is going on.


----------



## thrang

tspotorno said:


> I have had a 2143 for several years. Working great.
> 
> Upgraded to Pro cpl months ago on tradeup program, still have the 2143 cause of the issues with the Pro.
> 
> It does not appear that the pro sync's with the Sony VW1100 well, I am plagued with a white snow blinking screen...
> 
> It usually happens when I update the firmware, I just moved to the latest firmware and now I cannot get the two devices to sync, the only thing I see on the display is white snow that blinks off and on.
> 
> Things I've tried:
> 
> 1. Unplug unit, and load firmware in the first 10 sec.
> 2. Swap cables, luckily I have 3 hdmi cables going to the projector.
> 3. Unplug unit, then upon restart issue Menu 0999 to force a factory default of the settings.
> 4. Unplug projector, lumagen, every device in the chain etc, power everything down then replug everything in and still cannot get rid of the white blinking snow... (This has worked in the past)
> 
> While I get snow on the projector, the audio output from the pro to my RS20i works perfectly. So I know I am getting a signal.
> 
> I am using the Monoprice Cabernet Ultra CL2 Active cables to the projector.
> 
> Not sure if there is anything else I can try... Will try to call their support on Tuesday, unless someone has an idea on what is going on.


I've had no issues with the Pro and an 1100, and the same cable (40')


----------



## Gordon Fraser

thrang said:


> I've had no issues with the Pro and an 1100, and the same cable (40')


Indeed and i have a client with a Pro and an 1100 with no problems.


----------



## Mark_H

I did have problems with my vw1000 but when I switched to input 2 on the projector they went away. Stable since then...


----------



## Grifo

Actually I have had the snow issue
Connecting my pro 4449 to the 1100. 
Jim suggested to change input. 
He said input 2 is far better concerning
New hdcp standards. 
Once changed input in fact everything has gone
Ok. 
Now I am using a cabrrnet monoprice active cable
But I bought a ricable passive hdmi as well
To compare. 

After several tests both on several blurays and sky hdtv
I keep on preferring the 1100 scaler to the radiance one.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 122215- (replaced 122115) Adds reinterlacing for poorly deinterlaced 480/576p sources (in menu under Input: In Configs: RES: CFG: Control: Reinterlace). Adds auto aspect detection (in menu under Input: Options: Aspect Setup: Auto Aspect). Fix for problems using vertical shift adjustment with 4k or interlaced sources. Fix for bug with top line being red when displaying fullscreen blue test patterns. Added direct codes to turn Darbee on/off for all inputs, "menu 0861" (on) or "menu 0860" (off). Adds warmup test patterns (in menu under Other: Test Pattern: Warmup)
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## tspotorno

Quick update.

Pulled all cables off of the pro, flashed to the new 122115 with "Force" after a complete power off.

Put all the cables back on, and switched to input 2 on the vw1100.

And it worked, no more snow... Hopefully, this is the end of that issue.


----------



## Chris5

The Force strikes back.....


----------



## p5browne

tspotorno said:


> Quick update.
> 
> Pulled all cables off of the pro, flashed to the new 122115 with "Force" after a complete power off.
> 
> Put all the cables back on, and switched to input 2 on the vw1100.
> 
> And it worked, no more snow... Hopefully, this is the end of that issue.


I assume you saw my posting above yours?


----------



## Chris5

By the way, reinterlacing 576p works a treat for me, which is more than it ever did on my old 3dxs


----------



## SJHT

In the output setting Auto 4 (my JVC RS600 is 4), when the Lumagen Pro receives a 1080p24 or 2160p24 signal, it outputs 2160p24. However, when it receives a 1080p60 or 2160p60 input, it outputs 1080p60. Is this the correct behavior? I can set the output in one of the memories to output 2160p60 and that works fine. Just curious about this. Thanks. SJ


----------



## jrp

Gordon Fraser said:


> Indeed and i have a client with a Pro and an 1100 with no problems.


I can confirm we likely have more than 50 Radiance Pro's with Sony 4k projectors in the field working well. If yours is not, it is likely cables related.

If you have up to a 50 foot Monoprice Redmere and are having issues, there is a small chance there is an issue in your Radiance Pro. Other active cables may be fine, but I recommend the Monoprice Redmere as I know they work.

The test that should be done to confirm is to very temporarily move the Pro close to the Sony 4k, and use a 4k rated 6 to 10 foot HDMI cable from the Pro to the Sony projector Input 2. If you still have issues with this short distance, then contact me at [email protected] and I can help you with testing in more detail and if needed get you a replacement unit.

==== 

As an aside, using an active cable from the source may be an issue if that source cannot supply the active cable with enough power. This is actually fairly common in older HDMI gear as they were designed before Redmere and so designed to supply the current required by the HDMI spec (50 mA at 5VDC to the EDID ROM in the down-stream device), and not enough to also power the active circuitry in the Redmere cable.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> In the output setting Auto 4 (my JVC RS600 is 4), when the Lumagen Pro receives a 1080p24 or 2160p24 signal, it outputs 2160p24. However, when it receives a 1080p60 or 2160p60 input, it outputs 1080p60. Is this the correct behavior? I can set the output in one of the memories to output 2160p60 and that works fine. Just curious about this. Thanks. SJ


If the Radiance Pro output 1080p60 rather than 4k60, then either the device does not accept 4k60 and reports such in its EDID (so the Pro won't output it), or the Pro is not detecting that the display/projector can support 4k60 in its EDID even though it does. 

With the latest software you can go into the Output Setup Menu for 2D, select All for input, All for Memory, and "All 60 Hertz" for input resolution, and then select 4k60 for the Output Rate (either 4096 or 3840 wide depending on your projector/display), press OK to accept then exit that menu. This tells the Radiance Pro to ignore the EDID from the display/projector and just do what you tell it for output rate for 60p sources. If you get a picture for a 60p source, then you can Save this setting. If not your display/projector may not support 4k60.


----------



## SJHT

Thanks. The projector does accept 4K60 and it works fine when I output that to it. Just assumed it would do that automatically. Must be something going on in the EDID. SJ


----------



## SJHT

How are folks handling lip sync with 4K. My AVP is only 2K 3D but I only use it for audio. I use the audio delay features. Seems to work fine, but also seems to vary between 4K, 2k and 3D and even 24 and 60 formats. Does the processing vary or something depending on source? Should I set something up for each source format? I swear that things seem to be working fine and then changes depending on content. SJ


----------



## Mark_H

SJHT said:


> How are folks handling lip sync with 4K. My AVP is only 2K 3D but I only use it for audio. I use the audio delay features. Seems to work fine, but also seems to vary between 4K, 2k and 3D and even 24 and 60 formats. Does the processing vary or something depending on source? Should I set something up for each source format? I swear that things seem to be working fine and then changes depending on content. SJ


In my system I measure and program lip sync for every permutation of hardware/audio codec. Never had to do it for refresh rate though (although these days I tend to only watch 24fps material), and I don't watch 3D.

But, yes, lip sync will vary based on lots of source variables... it's a bit of a nightmare, particularly once you become aware of it.


----------



## Chris5

For me, the extra outputs over the XS means I can now at last have my AVAmp driven by the radiance instead of the other way around. This seems to have helped with these modern slow 4k display devices


----------



## SJHT

Mark_H said:


> In my system I measure and program lip sync for every permutation of hardware/audio codec. Never had to do it for refresh rate though (although these days I tend to only watch 24fps material), and I don't watch 3D.
> 
> But, yes, lip sync will vary based on lots of source variables... it's a bit of a nightmare, particularly once you become aware of it.


I guess that's why I think it would be great if the processor would handle this vs my AVP. I only use one input to my AVP as the Radiance is the primary hub for all sources. Having the ability to set audio delay processing for each input based on input and output characteristics might be a very useful feature.. SJ


----------



## R Harkness

I just received a monoprice redmere active cable (50ft) and I'm (sort of) happy to report it solved the problem!
(I say "sort of" because this means having to re-cable through my walls and basement ceiling!).

Though, at this point if I'm going to get to pulling cables through my walls, wanting to get it right, I'm not sure what would be the best bet to go with: stick with these monoprice cables or go to the Cat5 or optical hdmi cables some have mentioned.


----------



## Naylorman32

I posted this in the JVC thread as well... but I know some people have had issues with their new JVC projectors and a Lumagen. So i use a Lumagen Pro in my theater. I can get picture just fine, but I can't seem to adjust my screen at all when trying to use the NLS feature. Specifically, if I try to "shrink" a 16:9 picture to fit my 2:35 screen, nothing happens. In fact, it always seems to be spilled over the top. I never had this issue on my Sony. 

Anyone have any ideas? I tried resetting it back to factory settings, but nothing budges.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 123015- Fixup of Output Mask and Output Shrink functions which were not functioning in 120215-122215 firmware. Fix for 4k60 sources not selecting 4K60 configs (was selecting "Other" config). Fix to avoid getting a green line at top of screen when using test patterns under certain circumstances. Fix for incorrectly allow input config 8 to be selected in the Input Setup command. Some other small fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 010316- A fix for output mask and shrink settings being mislocated. For example, if you had set up Style 0 to use an output mask (or shrink) it would use the mask setting from Style 1. If you haven't done a "save" since updating then it should just be fixed when you do this update. If it does not appear to be fixed then a "save" may have been done and you can then properly relocate the output shrink & mask settings by going into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744". You should then do a "save" to keep the properly located settings. If you're not using the output mask & shrink settings or you've already noticed and manually fixed the output mask or shrink settings you can ignore this update. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

Naylorman32 said:


> I posted this in the JVC thread as well... but I know some people have had issues with their new JVC projectors and a Lumagen. So i use a Lumagen Pro in my theater. I can get picture just fine, but I can't seem to adjust my screen at all when trying to use the NLS feature. Specifically, if I try to "shrink" a 16:9 picture to fit my 2:35 screen, nothing happens. In fact, it always seems to be spilled over the top. I never had this issue on my Sony.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas? I tried resetting it back to factory settings, but nothing budges.


There was a bug in the Radiance Pro Output Shrink for a time that has been fixed in 010416. With this release follow Tech Tip 16 for a 2.35 screen. Then NLS should work (press 16:9 and then NLS).


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates

Beta 010416- The fix for the greenline problem mentioned in update 123015 did not get included, it is now working as intended in this update. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]


----------



## Naylorman32

jrp said:


> There was a bug in the Radiance Pro Output Shrink for a time that has been fixed in 010416. With this release follow Tech Tip 16 for a 2.35 screen. Then NLS should work (press 16:9 and then NLS).



I got it to work! Thanks Jim


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 010816- Added genlock in the menu under "Input: Options: Genlock". Genlocking to a source can lower video delay and avoid an occasional frame skip or double. Setting genlock can result in slightly longer switching times between sources. Fix for auto aspect with 4:3 source. Fix for issue with "Output Copy" between styles that linkes the output shrink & mask such that changing one would change the other. Changed the zoom control to be temporary rather than saved setting. Fixed an issue with using 2.40 in output aspect per input aspect mode. Moved "Scale Bias" in menu under "Input: Options" as it makes sense to be there since it's not a per resolution/aspect setting. Other small fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jamesmil

Are there any other drawbacks to Genlock beyond the longer switching times?


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 011416- Adds rs232 full information query command, "ZQI21". Adds rs232 command, "ZY550" to reset automatic aspect detection which is useful if user temporarily overrides it and then wants to redetect automatically. Adds "Full" option to reporting mode changes via rs232 in menu under "Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup". Adds some improvements to automatic image based input aspect detection. If you need documentation on the new rs232 commands before our rs232 tech tip is updated please email us at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## joerod

I must be on the "do not sell to" list because I can't seem to get anyone to sell me one.


----------



## p5browne

joerod said:


> I must be on the "do not sell to" list because I can't seem to get anyone to sell me one.


Just PM jrp. Better still, [email protected], or [email protected]


----------



## joerod

Thank you.


----------



## sillysally

p5browne said:


> Just PM jrp. Better still, [email protected], or [email protected]


Yes that is what I did, ordering my Pro 4444 today.

ss


----------



## jrp

jamesmil said:


> Are there any other drawbacks to Genlock beyond the longer switching times?


The only drawback is the extra switching time needed to restart the Radiance Pro output. This is mostly the time teh TV/projector takes to lock on to the new HDMI signal.

The advantage is never dropping or doubling a frame. This is much more important at 24p than 60p, so we are defaulting Genlock to On for 24/25p, and off for 50/60p. We leave it off by default for 50/60 Hertz sources to keep channel surfing as fast as possible.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 012116- Fix for output video clock inaccuracy which could cause frame drops and potentially loss of video. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

Beta 012016- Fix for issue genlocking to [email protected] (or [email protected]) input sources that resulted in loss of output video.


----------



## henrich3

When can we expect a Radiance Pro firmware update to add Rec 2020, P3/DCI, and HDR10 functionality? 

UHD Blu-ray players are available now, and I assume that when I pick up my UHD Blu-ray movies this Sunday that I'll need to bypass the Radiance Pro if I want my projector to properly display the Rec 2020 colors encoded on the media.


----------



## BakeApples

What fan speed are you running your Pros at? Wondering if i can reduce it to 4 or will it get to hot?


----------



## BrolicBeast

BakeApples said:


> What fan speed are you running your Pros at? Wondering if i can reduce it to 4 or will it get to hot?


 
I'd say run your fan speed at the maximum tolerable speed. On a previous lumagen, the lumagen would overheat sometimes. My solution was to place a medium-sized table fan within two inches of the lumagen's vents, and run at max speed (all in equipment room, no effect on sound in theater). It solved the problems, but anything with a processor that gets hot enough to need a fan, I'd say run the fan as high as it can go without interrupting your theater experience.


Edit: This post refers to my brief overheating experience with the RadianceMini...not the larger, or more recent models.


----------



## SJHT

Mine is in an equipment cabinet away from my HT. What is the maximum fan speed setting? Seems like I have it on Auto or something now... SJ


----------



## BakeApples

SJHT said:


> Mine is in an equipment cabinet away from my HT. What is the maximum fan speed setting? Seems like I have it on Auto or something now... SJ


The range is from 1 to 10 and default setting is at 6. At default, it`s quite noticeable but reducing it down to 3-4 makes it more acceptable. There is a warning when you reduce it to 3 or lower that running over 85C may give noisy video. So far, i`m around 65C on the Chip & 43C on the board with fan setting at 3.

Will monitor it and see if i can keep it at around 3 or 4. I have my Pro placed in a media rack but it`s out in the open with free space on all sides.


----------



## Chris5

Hi BakeApples. It sounds to me you have all the information you need to use the correct setting. Ignore the comments about previous gen Lumagens, I doubt they are applicable. I am suprised you need it set to 3 though, I have mine one down from the default and can not hear it.

P.s. Add some black currents to your apples... Much better!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Even with the fan at 1 the fpga isn't getting up to close to 85C with current firmware loads and for most folk at setting 3 it is inaudible.


re HDR, REC2020. Now that units are starting to ship i believe Lumagen are prioritising the support for those features so i expect we'll get results soon....but i cant give exact date....but they are on the case.


----------



## jrp

The Samsung UHD player came out a bit sooner than we expected. Adding the HDR and Rec 2020 flags to the HDMI info frames is now a very high priority and we hope to have these in the software in a few weeks.

Calibration for Rec 2020 should be fine, and we should have the ability to select the Rec 2020 calibration based on teh source Rec2020 info frame flag.

Calibration with HDR is more difficult and initially it might be that for HDR source the Radiance CMS should be at default until we get this sorted.


----------



## jrp

BrolicBeast said:


> I'd say run your fan speed at the maximum tolerable speed. On a previous lumagen, the lumagen would overheat sometimes. My solution was to place a medium-sized table fan within two inches of the lumagen's vents, and run at max speed (all in equipment room, no effect on sound in theater). It solved the problems, but anything with a processor that gets hot enough to need a fan, I'd say run the fan as high as it can go without interrupting your theater experience.


I assume this was the RadianceMini, correct? This is a bit of apples to oranges as the Mini was my attempt to make a Radiance as small as possible, and I got a bit carried away.

Few people ever have issues with thermal on the RadianceMini, but it was by far closer to the edge of thermal over heating than any other Radiance. So I suspect your fan comment might actually be misleading (assuming I am correct that it was a Mini-3D) concerning the larger Radiance units.

The current FPGA does not have nearly all the planned logic, so the FPGA will get hotter in the future. We are considering changing the speed number to a temperature, with 85C as the default, and perhaps allowing higher temps (say 90C and 95C, that the user can try but are not guaranteed to perform well). That way the Radiance would choose the slowest fan speed that keeps the FPGA below the specified temperature.

While it is not recommended I have run the FPGA at up to about 105C (no fan) and had it work fine with the current FPGA load. So - while we would not guarantee operation above 85C - for the couple units I tested there did seem to be some thermal head room. This of course would depend on which speed corner a particular FPGA was at as far as semiconductor process was concerned.


----------



## jrp

A comment on Rec 2020:

Consider a Radiance Pro at default. There is no difference if the input/output both are Rec709, or both Rec2020. The math works the same in the video processor for either. The difference comes in the calibration. You calibrate to different xyY points for Rec 2020.

If you can coax Rec 2020 out of a device before the Radiance Pro implements the Rec 2020 HDMI info frame flag, then the Radiance can properly process it and can be calibrated for Rec 2020. The CMS for Rec2020 would need to be selected manually until it is in the Radiance Pro software however.

This is also true of HDR with the Radiance Pro at default. Even though the radiance converts to RGB for the 3D LUT using the Rec 709 Gamma, as long as you don't try to calibrate, everything works. This is because the conversion to Rec 709 linear Gamma RGB and back is isomorphic. That is what goes in comes out again.

I do not know if the UHD player will allow output with either Rec 2020 or HDR without the appropriate EDID though. As mentioned we a re a few weeks away from implemented the EDID. So not too long to wait.


----------



## SJHT

When PIP is fully implemted will it allow me to overlay the GUI volume increase graphic from my AVP? SJ


----------



## stanger89

jrp said:


> I do not know if the UHD player will allow output with either Rec 2020 or HDR without the appropriate EDID though. As mentioned we a re a few weeks away from implemented the EDID. So not too long to wait.


From what I gather, there's no way in the Samsung to force Rec2020 or HDR, however it appears the HDFury Integral can fake out the EDID to cause that.


----------



## BrolicBeast

jrp said:


> I assume this was the RadianceMini, correct? This is a bit of apples to oranges as the Mini was my attempt to make a Radiance as small as possible, and I got a bit carried away.
> 
> Few people ever have issues with thermal on the RadianceMini, but it was by far closer to the edge of thermal over heating than any other Radiance. So I suspect your fan comment might actually be misleading (assuming I am correct that it was a Mini-3D) concerning the larger Radiance units.
> 
> The current FPGA does not have nearly all the planned logic, so the FPGA will get hotter in the future. We are considering changing the speed number to a temperature, with 85C as the default, and perhaps allowing higher temps (say 90C and 95C, that the user can try but are not guaranteed to perform well). That way the Radiance would choose the slowest fan speed that keeps the FPGA below the specified temperature.
> 
> While it is not recommended I have run the FPGA at up to about 105C (no fan) and had it work fine with the current FPGA load. So - while we would not guarantee operation above 85C - for the couple units I tested there did seem to be some thermal head room. This of course would depend on which speed corner a particular FPGA was at as far as semiconductor process was concerned.



Hi Jim, yes indeed--it's the RadianceMini I was referring to. I'm glad you got carried away with the small design of the Mini, because it was the only Radiance I could afford at the time, and it utterly transformed my home theater experience. I'll likely be running mine at max speed, just because the Radiance Pro will be in a soundproofed equipment room. I'm going to clarify my earlier post to indicate I'm referring to the Mini


----------



## jrp

stanger89 said:


> From what I gather, there's no way in the Samsung to force Rec2020 or HDR, however it appears the HDFury Integral can fake out the EDID to cause that.


We should have the HDR10 and Rec 2020 in the Radiance Pro EDID and support the info-frame-flags for these in a few weeks. You will then be able to have a Rec 2020 CMS that is automatically selected when the HDMI Info-Frame specifies Rec 2020. The same will be true for HDR, but it might be a little longer to get the HDR10 calibration sorted.

The CMS combinations are looking to be Rec 709 no HDR, Rec 709 with HDR, Rec 2020 no HDR and Rec 2020 with HDR. Not sure how often the Rec 709 with HDR will be used, but it is a valid option.

Note: The P3 color space (a.k.a. DCI) is going to use Rec 2020 encoding and info-frame flag and so will also use the Rec 2020 calibration.

We plan to allow the user to program the Radiance Pro to report Rec 2020 and HDR10 in its EDID, even if the display/projector does not specify these. Then -- with proper calibration -- the Radiance Pro will generate the best match to Rec 2020 (/P3) and/or HDR the display/projector is capable of. Many older digital displays and projectors have a native color space approaching DCI, and so these the titles mastered in DCI can look very nice on older devices using the Radiance Pro to optimize the colors using its CMS calibration memories.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> When PIP is fully implemted will it allow me to overlay the GUI volume increase graphic from my AVP? SJ


We plan to allow the same type of user configurable window as in the RadianceXE. This would include size, position, cropping of the source to just show the OSD area needed, and an automatic time-out so you do not need to manually turn it off.

Then like the [EDIT] XE you would have a macro, for example for up volume, send the up volume command to the AVR, but also send the PiP On command with the appropriate PiP mode to the Radiance Pro.


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> We should have the HDR10 and Rec 2020 in the Radiance Pro EDID and support the info-frame-flags for these in a few weeks. You will then be able to have a Rec 2020 CMS that is automatically selected when the HDMI Info-Frame specifies Rec 2020. The same will be true for HDR, but it might be a little longer to get the HDR10 calibration sorted.
> 
> The CMS combinations are looking to be Rec 709 no HDR, Rec 709 with HDR, Rec 2020 no HDR and Rec 2020 with HDR. Not sure how often the Rec 709 with HDR will be used, but it is a valid option.
> 
> Note: The P3 color space (a.k.a. DCI) is going to use Rec 2020 encoding and info-frame flag and so will also use the Rec 2020 calibration.
> 
> We plan to allow the user to program the Radiance Pro to report Rec 2020 and HDR10 in its EDID, even if the display/projector does not specify these. Then -- with proper calibration -- the Radiance Pro will generate the best match to Rec 2020 (/P3) and/or HDR the display/projector is capable of. Many older digital displays and projectors have a native color space approaching DCI, and so these the titles mastered in DCI can look very nice on older devices using the Radiance Pro to optimize the colors using its CMS calibration memories.


Thanks for the update Jim! Any chance there will be an option in the Radiance Pro to report NOT HDR10 capable for a display, even if the display IS HDR10 capable? We've seen a lot of people with projectors that are hoping for that kind of option as HDR10 is still a wild west in terms of setting it up properly. The Integral will allow this, but if the Radiance Pro allows for some type of EDID manipulation, I don't see why it couldn't be a simple selector in the output menu (HDR Yes/NO). Thoughts??


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> Thanks for the update Jim! Any chance there will be an option in the Radiance Pro to report NOT HDR10 capable for a display, even if the display IS HDR10 capable? We've seen a lot of people with projectors that are hoping for that kind of option as HDR10 is still a wild west in terms of setting it up properly. The Integral will allow this, but if the Radiance Pro allows for some type of EDID manipulation, I don't see why it couldn't be a simple selector in the output menu (HDR Yes/NO). Thoughts??


Kris:

I think we will do this, as we have in the past with manually adjusted features such as 3D Options. We have previously allowed selections as Auto, On, and Off for these, and I expect we would offer these for HDR.

We would also allow Auto, On, and Off, for Rec 2020.


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> Kris:
> 
> I think we will do this, as we have in the past with manually adjusted features such as 3D Options. We have previously allowed selections as Auto, On, and Off for these, and I expect we would offer these for HDR.
> 
> We would also allow Auto, On, and Off, for Rec 2020.


Just more reasons while I will ALWAYS have a Radiance in my video chain! Thanks Jim, keep up the great work!!!


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> We should have the HDR10 and Rec 2020 in the Radiance Pro EDID and support the info-frame-flags for these in a few weeks. You will then be able to have a Rec 2020 CMS that is automatically selected when the HDMI Info-Frame specifies Rec 2020. The same will be true for HDR, but it might be a little longer to get the HDR10 calibration sorted.
> 
> The CMS combinations are looking to be Rec 709 no HDR, Rec 709 with HDR, Rec 2020 no HDR and Rec 2020 with HDR. Not sure how often the Rec 709 with HDR will be used, but it is a valid option.
> 
> Note: The P3 color space (a.k.a. DCI) is going to use Rec 2020 encoding and info-frame flag and so will also use the Rec 2020 calibration.
> 
> We plan to allow the user to program the Radiance Pro to report Rec 2020 and HDR10 in its EDID, even if the display/projector does not specify these. Then -- with proper calibration -- the Radiance Pro will generate the best match to Rec 2020 (/P3) and/or HDR the display/projector is capable of. Many older digital displays and projectors have a native color space approaching DCI, and so these the titles mastered in DCI can look very nice on older devices using the Radiance Pro to optimize the colors using its CMS calibration memories.


Hi Jim:

Will it be possible to pass 10 Bit, Rec2020 (P3 Colorspace), to 1080P projector from UHD disc?


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> Hi Jim:
> 
> Will it be possible to pass 10 Bit, Rec2020 (P3 Colorspace), to 1080P projector from UHD disc?


Yes, once we add the Rec 2020 EDID and support for Rec 2020 in the Info-frame in the next few weeks.

You would output it to your projector at 1080p 12-bit 4:2:2, and have a separate Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration for this case in the Pro. The Pro will be able to automatically select a specific CMS memory when it sees the Rec 2020 flag in the HDMI Info Frame, so this can be automatically selected.

One issue to overcome is that the Radiance Pro enforces the rule that HDCP 2.2 source must go out of the Radiance Pro to a HDCP 2.2 capable device. You can check out some other threads on how people are getting around this to watch HDCP 2.2 UHD content on a HDCP 1.x TV/projector.


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> You can check out some other threads on how people are getting around this to watch HDCP 2.2 UHD content on a HDCP 1.x TV/projector.


Try this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2171745-hdfury-integral.html


----------



## dlinsley

I dreamt last night that the new firmware had been released. I checked lumagen.com this morning and of course it had not


----------



## p5browne

dlinsley said:


> I dreamt last night that the new firmware had been released. I checked lumagen.com this morning and of course it had not


You're dreaming of the future. Now if you could only do it for lottery numbers!


----------



## henrich3

dlinsley said:


> I dreamt last night that the new firmware had been released. I checked lumagen.com this morning and of course it had not


Next time you have that dream, look over the updated code. When you wake, type it up & submit it to Lumagen for testing. Then you'll be everyone's hero!

Oh, and do check the Lotto results and PM me the winning numbers. I'll do the verification testing for those...


----------



## Mark_H

Will the Darbee 4K processing be available/added to the Pro?


----------



## uderman

Jim said earlier although they have no plans for it currently, it can be added later if it becomes available. I would rather use the gates on the fpga for higher precision calibration and other essential functions than wasting them for 4K Darbee. If after all proposed functions are implemented and there are still some gates available then sure by all means.


----------



## Mark_H

uderman said:


> Jim said earlier although they have no plans for it currently, it can be added later if it becomes available.


Their standalone 4K processing is incoming. Hopefully they will license it, as before.



> I would rather use the gates on the fpga for higher precision calibration and other essential functions than wasting them for 4K Darbee. If after all proposed functions are implemented and there are still some gates available then sure by all means.


That position only makes sense when we know how much fpga is needed and how quickly the new algorithm can be added. To be determined...


----------



## uderman

True but there is always something new. I would rather have some of the gates available for future proofing. I personally don't care for darbee and I see a lot of people ask for it so it's natural Lumagen will grant the majorities wish. I wish they gave you two firmware options, one with all the gates utilized for the purist myself (highest precision processing) and another one with slightly comprised precision but has some fancy functions like darbee, nls and such.


----------



## Mark_H

Darbee is an essential part of many peoples' 1080p chain. It remains to be seen if it's needed for UHD, but I'd like the option, based on past experiences.

However, I would also agree that there are higher development priorities, but as above, it might be such a simple update that it can be added without affecting other development. 

It makes sense for Lumagen to squeeze in all the bells and whistles they can to satisfy all their customers needs.


----------



## p5browne

4K itself should more than make up for 1080 Sharpness and clarity issues!

Add HDR, and what more can you ask for except a way to calibrate HDR.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Yes, once we add the Rec 2020 EDID and support for Rec 2020 in the Info-frame in the next few weeks.
> 
> You would output it to your projector at 1080p 12-bit 4:2:2, and have a separate Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration for this case in the Pro. The Pro will be able to automatically select a specific CMS memory when it sees the Rec 2020 flag in the HDMI Info Frame, so this can be automatically selected.
> 
> One issue to overcome is that the Radiance Pro enforces the rule that HDCP 2.2 source must go out of the Radiance Pro to a HDCP 2.2 capable device. You can check out some other threads on how people are getting around this to watch HDCP 2.2 UHD content on a HDCP 1.x TV/projector.


I guess that explains why my second video output device (another TV that is not 2.2), is blank when I select it with a 2.2 source? Outputs fine to my main display/projector that is 2.2. So, even if I'm only outputing 1080P, a non-2.2 display device will not work with a 2.2 source with the Pro? I can output the 2.2 source directly to the non-2.2 device and it works fine. Just not through the Pro? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Chris5

I rearranged the position of my pro recently and I started noticing the annoying fan noise other members have mentioned previously.

I realised that the noise was radiating from the unit it was resting on. So got an old granite shelf (a cheap cutoff from a kitchen supplier) and put that between the pro and shelf. This reduced the fan noise by 50%. 

I then found some wooden coned feet that I had previously bought from Russ Andrews (the 'Big' size) and put them between the pro and the granite shelf and now I can't hear the fan at all. 

If I was to say the picture also looked cleaner and more 3D like no one would believe me as it's digital and can't be affected by things like microphony, so I won't say that. But considering how much the pro costs it's worth trying.


----------



## p5browne

*For the Member who was seeing a FW update in his dreams*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 022816- Fix for showing wrong HDCP type setting in menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: HDCP. Small fix to increase limit on Htotal setting in custom timing menu. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## dlinsley

Not as exciting as the firmware update in my dream!


----------



## p5browne

dlinsley said:


> Not as exciting as the firmware update in my dream!


Neither were your Lottery Numbers - only won a a Free Ticket!

Same this week - Free Ticket!


----------



## stanger89

This is quite OT, but Jim/Lumagen, what are the odds of getting the HDR/Rec2020 EDID/calibration capabilities added to the older Radiance models (like my Radiance XE)? Is it even possible with their hardware? I'm just wondering if it would possible for us with older Radii and without 4K displays to take advantage of HDR and WCG from UHD BD?


----------



## p5browne

stanger89 said:


> This is quite OT, but Jim/Lumagen, what are the odds of getting the HDR/Rec2020 EDID/calibration capabilities added to the older Radiance models (like my Radiance XE)? Is it even possible with their hardware? I'm just wondering if it would possible for us with older Radii and without 4K displays to take advantage of HDR and WCG from UHD BD?


Cheapest solution is going to be to directly connect the UHD-Blu-ray to your HDR capable TV.

Noticed newer HDR TVs are now starting to come with 21 Point calibration Points.


----------



## stanger89

p5browne said:


> Cheapest solution is going to be to directly connect the UHD-Blu-ray to your HDR capable TV.


Well I've got a Radiance XE already so if it were a firmware update, it would be free (to me ). I will likely upgrade my projector at some point, but all the HDR projectors seem to have serious issues at the moment. Sony's don't support WCG, seem unable to resolve 4K, and have panel degradation issues. JVCs seem to have HDR issues (I haven't been following them that closely, but some have said they get better results with HDR disabled), anything else is more expensive than a Radiance Pro, actually most of those options are more than a Radiance Pro (save an RS400). So I'll likely be waiting at least a generation for a new projector.

Other than the native resolution (probably) my RS4910 is more capable (hardware wise) of HDR and WCG than any of the Sony's save the VW5000, the problem is just the software, it doesn't know how to handle HDR or WCG. I guess what I was hoping is that the EDID/calibration functionality might be portable enough that the work you put toward it on the Pro could benefit us with 1080p setups and older Radiances. Of course I'm not sure if there's some hardware limitation that would prevent an HDMI 1.4 Radiance from even signaling HDR/WCG in it's EDID.


----------



## jrp

*Introducing the Radiance Pro 4240 and 4242*

Lumagen is pleased to announce the immediate availability of the two new Radiance Pro models. Based on the Radiance Pro 444X design, but with less I/O capability, the two new units are the Radiance Pro 4240 (2 inputs, 2 outputs), and the Radiance Pro 4242 (4 inputs, 2 outputs). Both of these units come in 1U (17" by 2" - or 1.75" without feet - by 9.5") cases and are the same size as the Radiance 2143 and RadianceXS-3D units.

The 424X series uses the same FPGA, and have all the video processing features of the 444X models, except they will not support PiP/PoP (there is a planned future PiP/PoP upgrade for the 444X models).

By keeping the input count to a maximum of four and the output count to a maximum of two, the 424X models allow for some cost reduction compared to the 444X models. The Radiance Pro 4240 has a USA retail price of $4995 and is perfect for systems that use a matrix switch for input selection, or switch sources using an AVR. The Radiance Pro 4242 has a USA retail price of $5295 and works well as the source switcher for smaller systems.

The 424X models use the same dual-input, and dual-output, daughter card I/O modules as the 444X models and so currently support 9 GHz I/O. Radiance Pro 424X hardware is at production status, and software is in Beta.

Email [email protected], or call us at 503-574-2211, for more information.


----------



## sjschaff

Excellent! I'd have gone for the 4242 in lieu of the 4442 I purchased but a month ago, as I only have a single projector and audio processor to deal with. 'Course I did so at a beta price, and I don't know if the beta pricing applies to these or whether beta priceing is over or not.


----------



## jrp

We are not giving Beta discounts on the 424X units and have reduced the Beta discount on the 444X units. So, without discussing numbers, I can say that I believe those who already bought a 444X with the Beta discount will be happy with the value they received on their 444X verses the 424X models.


----------



## henrich3

LJG said:


> Will it be possible to pass 10 Bit, Rec2020 (P3 Colorspace), to 1080P projector from UHD disc?





jrp said:


> Yes, once we add the Rec 2020 EDID and support for Rec 2020 in the Info-frame in the next few weeks.


A month ago the expected timeframe for the Pro's Rec.2020/HDR compatibility firmware update was a few weeks out. Any updated status?


----------



## jrp

henrich3 said:


> A month ago the expected timeframe for the Pro's Rec.2020/HDR compatibility firmware update was a few weeks out. Any updated status?


We ended up sidetracked completing some work that took much longer than anticipated. I am hopeful the HDR and Rec 2020 EDID and Info frame flags are in a release in the next two weeks, or so.

There should be a release in the next few days without these, and then in about two weeks with the HDR and Rec 2020 flags implemented. As with all new features the work can take longer than expected (as just happened with the upcoming release).


----------



## Mark_H

Exciting times, for sure!


----------



## GerryWaz

I may have missed this but have there been any discussions of support for Dolby Vision?


----------



## uderman

GerryWaz said:


> I may have missed this but have there been any discussions of support for Dolby Vision?



If Dolby doesn't want lara moneys for licensing, they will support it. It might even be easier to support DV than HDR10 as it has the HDR content on the actual stream, not a seperated bit like HDR10.


----------



## stanger89

My understanding is HDR10 doesn't have the HDR content separate, the content is transmitted with ST2084 EOTF, with metadata containing info about it.


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> We should have the HDR10 and Rec 2020 in the Radiance Pro EDID and support the info-frame-flags for these in a few weeks. You will then be able to have a Rec 2020 CMS that is automatically selected when the HDMI Info-Frame specifies Rec 2020. The same will be true for HDR, but it might be a little longer to get the HDR10 calibration sorted.
> 
> The CMS combinations are looking to be Rec 709 no HDR, Rec 709 with HDR, Rec 2020 no HDR and Rec 2020 with HDR. Not sure how often the Rec 709 with HDR will be used, but it is a valid option.
> 
> Note: The P3 color space (a.k.a. DCI) is going to use Rec 2020 encoding and info-frame flag and so will also use the Rec 2020 calibration.
> 
> We plan to allow the user to program the Radiance Pro to report Rec 2020 and HDR10 in its EDID, even if the display/projector does not specify these. Then -- with proper calibration -- the Radiance Pro will generate the best match to Rec 2020 (/P3) and/or HDR the display/projector is capable of. Many older digital displays and projectors have a native color space approaching DCI, and so these the titles mastered in DCI can look very nice on older devices using the Radiance Pro to optimize the colors using its CMS calibration memories.


My projector (JVC RS600) outputs less than 150 nits on my unity gain screen. I hope to have my pj & Radiance Pro calibrated after they get their firmware updates for Rec.2020/HDR. Given the low light output of my pj and the inconsistent mastering of HDR, my expectation is that calibrating for "_Rec 2020 *no* HDR_" will be the better way to go, but I have a few questions before committing to that.

If a Pro user selects the "_Rec 2020 no HDR_" option, will the Pro clip at 100 nits, or tone map the HDR luminance down to SDR?

If a Pro user selects the "_Rec 2020 no HDR_" option, will the Pro maintain the 10-bit color depth, or downgrade it to 8-bit?

It was reported in another thread that Fox UHD titles have HDR mastered at 1200 nits, while Warner titles are mastered at 4000 nits. If a Pro is configured to output "_Rec 2020 with HDR_", can the Pro be coded to resolve those differences in mastering and output a consistent HDR level (eg. tone map every HDR input so that the max output is a fixed 1200 nits)? If not, how can the Pro be calibrated so that titles mastered using different HDR levels don't appear either washed out or dim?

When will the Pro's 18 Gbps I/O cards be available, and what will they cost?


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> Yes, once we add the Rec 2020 EDID and support for Rec 2020 in the Info-frame in the next few weeks.
> 
> You would output it to your projector at 1080p 12-bit 4:2:2, and have a separate Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration for this case in the Pro. The Pro will be able to automatically select a specific CMS memory when it sees the Rec 2020 flag in the HDMI Info Frame, so this can be automatically selected.
> 
> One issue to overcome is that the Radiance Pro enforces the rule that HDCP 2.2 source must go out of the Radiance Pro to a HDCP 2.2 capable device. You can check out some other threads on how people are getting around this to watch HDCP 2.2 UHD content on a HDCP 1.x TV/projector.


Hi Jim,

Have you tested this with an HDMI 1.4 projector, like an older JVC which doesn't support the HDMI 2.0a profile unlike the more recent ones? 

Even with a third party device taking care of the HDCP 2.2 to 1.4 conversion, I experienced issues with some HDMI 1.4 devices to accept HDR content, even when converted to SDR, simply because they don't seem to accept any rec2020 content (they can't recognise it).

I had this issue with my Denon X5200W AVR which could accept 18gb/s but would refuse any BT2020 content. That's one of the reasons why I replaced it with an X7200WA.

So it would be great news if you could confirm that an older projector like my JVC X500 (RS49) can accept BT2020 content at 4:2:2 12bits, as this would indeed overcome the other HDMI 1.4 limitation which is its unability to deal with 4:2:0 (except at 60p 8bits) or 10bits UHD content.


----------



## popalock

I've been spending some time getting more familiar with this product to see if it is a good fit for my future needs. 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this feature, as stated on the Lumagen website: 



> -Up to seven independent zones (processed outputs are one zone, plus up to six switched zones)


Can someone explain to me exactly what that means? I will have 8 "zones" (or TV's) throughout my home that I would like have matrixed with all of my various sources to allow any of the TV's to be able to view any of the sources. From what I have seen, the Lumagen Pro is capabable of some amazing things, but does the statement above indicate that only "4" of the outputs are processed? That's fine for me if that is the case because I wll not necessairly be running 8 seperate 4K TV's that require Lumagen's full processing. However, why does it indicate those processed outputs as "1" zone?

Help please...


----------



## uderman

popalock said:


> I've been spending some time getting more familiar with this product to see if it is a good fit for my future needs.
> 
> I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this feature, as stated on the Lumagen website:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain to me exactly what that means? I will have 8 "zones" (or TV's) throughout my home that I would like have matrixed with all of my various sources to allow any of the TV's to be able to view any of the sources. From what I have seen, the Lumagen Pro is capabable of some amazing things, but does the statement above indicate that only "4" of the outputs are processed? That's fine for me if that is the case because I wll not necessairly be running 8 seperate 4K TV's that require Lumagen's full processing. However, why does it indicate those processed outputs as "1" zone?
> 
> Help please...



It is a 8x7 matrix switch put into a lumagen radiance pro. You can input 8 devices and any of those 8devices can be distributed to 7 different outputs (7 zones) in any arrangement. Output zone 1/main has all of the lumagen radiance processing and the other 6 outputs (zone 2-7) has pass through output/no lumagen processing. 

In addition to this, zone 1/main has 3 other hdmi outputs connected in parallel which makes it a total of 4 ports. These ports are processed however they are not independent, they show the same input selected. 

A typical example,

Zone 1 - port 1- projector, port 2- audio only to av receiver, port 3- smaller lcd for osd, port 4- reserved for future.

(Below are unprocessed signals so your display does scaling)
Zone 2- living room tv
Zone 3- bedroom
Zone 4- kitchen 

And so on..


----------



## popalock

uderman said:


> It is a 8x7 matrix switch put into a lumagen radiance pro. You can input 8 devices and any of those 8devices can be distributed to 7 different outputs (7 zones) in any arrangement. Output zone 1/main has all of the lumagen radiance processing and the other 6 outputs (zone 2-7) has pass through output/no lumagen processing.
> 
> In addition to this, zone 1/main has 3 other hdmi outputs connected in parallel which makes it a total of 4 ports. These ports are processed however they are not independent, they show the same input selected.
> 
> A typical example,
> 
> Zone 1 - port 1- projector, port 2- audio only to av receiver, port 3- smaller lcd for osd, port 4- reserved for future.
> 
> (Below are unprocessed signals so your display does scaling)
> Zone 2- living room tv
> Zone 3- bedroom
> Zone 4- kitchen
> 
> And so on..


Thank you for that explanation. So, to sum up your comments above, the Lumagen Pro can work it's magic in only one (1) zone, but you could essiantially have four (4) displays showing the same processed signal. The other six (6) outputs/zones are basically just a HDMI matrix switcher. 

A few more questions if I might:

1. Are you at least able to calibrate each of the processed outputs independently based on the display you intend on using? I mean, calibration is a huge function of the Lumagen, correct? So if the Lumagen was calibrated in my HT room along with my projector, would that calibration have to carry over to the other processed outputs? (pardon me if this statement shows my ignorance about the Lumagen functality)

2. Based on the explanation provided by @uderman above, if I wanted my family room display to see the full benefit of the Lumagen, but have the ability to access any of the other input sources independently, I would have to run two (2) HDMI cables to that TV (i.e. - one of the processed outputs and one of the other matrixed/zone outputs), correct?

I understand in real world usage, we most likely would not have six (6) TV's on at the same time, all utilizing a different input source, I am just trying to understand the Lumagen's limitations and whether or not paying 1/2 the price for a high quality 8x8 matrix switcher would satisfy my needs. 

Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## Chris5

just a thought, presumably you can take a processed output and feed it back in for one of the unprocessed outputs, you then would not need 2 cables. 

Whilst you can store the calibration profiles (memories) for each processed output device. You can only select 1 profile/memory at any one time for the 4 processed output, I.e. It's not designed for using all 4 processed outputs at the same time.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

As Chris said. Zone 1, the first 4 output modules all carry the same processed signal. That means the same CMS bank in operation. If you wanted to have more than one display calibrated with Lumagens LUT tools then you could assign CMS banks for those other displays and attach them to different MEMORIES. In that way when you wanted to use, say the TV in living room, instead of Projector in Theater, you would select a different memory on the scaler. This does of course mean that you cannot have both displays running at the sametime both with optimal calibrations.


----------



## uderman

also keep in mind, If you have all 4 zone 1 outputs activated/connected to appropriate displays, the Lumagen will favor the least capable display for its processing. i.e. If you happen to have a 720p Display there, all 4 will be outputting 720p. You can set the Lumagen to ignore EDID info from lesser displays and force output 4K but then the lesser displays will show no video. 

You can buy a 4446 and a matrix switch, they will essentially do the same. The advantage of 4449(having built in matrix switcher) are 

- having one less box in your rack
- you can have custom settings for each input. This can be accomplished with a separate matrix switch but it is more complicated.
- IR and Serial commands through a single box solution (less number of remote controls and/or single serial port from a master controller)
- Feeding all inputs into Lumagen vs matrix switch, you can utilize PIP/POP when they are available (via FW).
- Less likely handshake issues due to less number of boxes in chain.
- Later FW updates will most likely add EDID editing on unprocessed zones 2-7.


----------



## jrp

henrich3 said:


> My projector (JVC RS600) outputs less than 150 nits on my unity gain screen. I hope to have my pj & Radiance Pro calibrated after they get their firmware updates for Rec.2020/HDR. Given the low light output of my pj and the inconsistent mastering of HDR, my expectation is that calibrating for "_Rec 2020 *no* HDR_" will be the better way to go, but I have a few questions before committing to that.
> 
> If a Pro user selects the "_Rec 2020 no HDR_" option, will the Pro clip at 100 nits, or tone map the HDR luminance down to SDR?
> 
> If a Pro user selects the "_Rec 2020 no HDR_" option, will the Pro maintain the 10-bit color depth, or downgrade it to 8-bit?
> 
> It was reported in another thread that Fox UHD titles have HDR mastered at 1200 nits, while Warner titles are mastered at 4000 nits. If a Pro is configured to output "_Rec 2020 with HDR_", can the Pro be coded to resolve those differences in mastering and output a consistent HDR level (eg. tone map every HDR input so that the max output is a fixed 1200 nits)? If not, how can the Pro be calibrated so that titles mastered using different HDR levels don't appear either washed out or dim?
> 
> When will the Pro's 18 Gbps I/O cards be available, and what will they cost?


The Pro will report and accept both Rec 2020 and HDR10 (when the software is done), and then output to a Non-HDR, Non Rec 2020 TV or projector (and those that support these of course). The calibrator would calibrate to the maximum brightness and use the HDR Gamma curve for the HDR mode.

Meta Data for HDR is supposed to report the Grading information. While we have not implemented it, the Radiance Pro will interpret the source per the Meta data and map it to the measured performance of the TV/projector. Said another way, the plan is to support material graded to different intensity levels and provide the best possible image on any TV or Projector that the TV/Projector is capable of, whether or not if has one or both HDR10 or Rec 2020 officially supported.

Generally the Gamut will be calibrated to Rec 2020 (even if it does not reach that far). We plan a flag in the Radiance Pro to specify whether a Gamut is calibrated to Red 2020 or Rec 709. That way a 709 would use the Rec 2020 calibration, but the Radiance would convert the data for a Rec 709 source to the correct subset of Rec 2020. You could choose to have another CMS memory be calibrated to Rec 709 and then the Radiance Pro would not convert the image data for a 709 source. The goal, though, is to have these two options look identical, thus making a second Rec 709 specific CMS unnecessary.

Current the Radiance Pro pipeline is 10-bit , and 12+ bits in the CMS section. We plan to increase these numbers by at least 1 additional bit of precision to account for the larger Rec 2020 Gamut.

The UHD 10-bit 4:2:0 source would be processed at 10-bits or more and it can be output in any supported bit depth. For example, even though a the first UHD player is not doing the right thing and allowing 24p material to be output at 12-bit 4:2:2, or 10-bit 4:2:0, as it should, with an 18 GHz input card on the Radiance Pro, the Pro can then change the format to the better choice of 12-bit 4:2:2 on output so these 24p sources can run at 9 GHz from the Radiance Pro to the TV or Projector.

I won't be commenting on the 18 GHz price in forums, but as to schedule we expect the 18 GHz cards to be available at the end of Q2. If you are interested in the Radiance Pro and want pricing information, please email us at [email protected] or call us at 503-574-2211.


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Have you tested this with an HDMI 1.4 projector, like an older JVC which doesn't support the HDMI 2.0a profile unlike the more recent ones?
> 
> Even with a third party device taking care of the HDCP 2.2 to 1.4 conversion, I experienced issues with some HDMI 1.4 devices to accept HDR content, even when converted to SDR, simply because they don't seem to accept any rec2020 content (they can't recognise it).
> 
> I had this issue with my Denon X5200W AVR which could accept 18gb/s but would refuse any BT2020 content. That's one of the reasons why I replaced it with an X7200WA.
> 
> So it would be great news if you could confirm that an older projector like my JVC X500 (RS49) can accept BT2020 content at 4:2:2 12bits, as this would indeed overcome the other HDMI 1.4 limitation which is its unability to deal with 4:2:0 (except at 60p 8bits) or 10bits UHD content.


I do not think there is any HDMI 1.4 device that support HDR, or Rec 2020, at least at this time. With the Radiance Pro in the middle doing the video processing (and once we have the HDR and Rec 2020 software in), for these devices you will be able to input HDR and Rec 2020 into the Radiance Pro, and have the Pro adapt it to display on your non-HDR, non-Rec 2020, TV/projector to have it look as good as possible.

We have a number of Radiance Pro customers using it with HDCP 1.X 4k and 1080p TVs and projectors and it works very well.

Since the Radiance Pro can do the switching, and output audio-only signal to the AVR, you do not need a new AVR to support 4k UHD HDR or Rec 2020 in the AVR.

The Radiance Pro would send 4k24 at 12-bit 4:2:2 to your projector for 24p movies, and 8-bit 4:2:0 for 4k60 output (dithered from the 12-bit internal back end so it will look nearly as good as 4:2:0 10-bit). You would need a device to convert HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.X to display the UHD on a HDCP 1.X TV/projector though.


----------



## jrp

popalock said:


> Thank you for that explanation. So, to sum up your comments above, the Lumagen Pro can work it's magic in only one (1) zone, but you could essiantially have four (4) displays showing the same processed signal. The other six (6) outputs/zones are basically just a HDMI matrix switcher.
> 
> A few more questions if I might:
> 
> 1. Are you at least able to calibrate each of the processed outputs independently based on the display you intend on using? I mean, calibration is a huge function of the Lumagen, correct? So if the Lumagen was calibrated in my HT room along with my projector, would that calibration have to carry over to the other processed outputs? (pardon me if this statement shows my ignorance about the Lumagen functality)
> 
> 2. Based on the explanation provided by @uderman above, if I wanted my family room display to see the full benefit of the Lumagen, but have the ability to access any of the other input sources independently, I would have to run two (2) HDMI cables to that TV (i.e. - one of the processed outputs and one of the other matrixed/zone outputs), correct?
> 
> I understand in real world usage, we most likely would not have six (6) TV's on at the same time, all utilizing a different input source, I am just trying to understand the Lumagen's limitations and whether or not paying 1/2 the price for a high quality 8x8 matrix switcher would satisfy my needs.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your input.


For 1) Gordon is correct that you get one calibration at a time but you can have a calibration for each TV/projector for the Processed outputs. So as long as you are watching only one at a time each can be properly calibrated.

For 2) For the Radiance Pro 4449 with 7 zones, you can wire a processed output back to a Radiance Pro input. Then that input can be "passed through" to any zone. So this would allow you to choose one (or more if they shared the same setup) of the switched zone outputs to have processed video (or pass through from any input of course) while having only a single HDMI connection going to each zone.


----------



## jrp

Chris5 said:


> just a thought, presumably you can take a processed output and feed it back in for one of the unprocessed outputs, you then would not need 2 cables.
> 
> Whilst you can store the calibration profiles (memories) for each processed output device. You can only select 1 profile/memory at any one time for the 4 processed output, I.e. It's not designed for using all 4 processed outputs at the same time.


I missed that Chris already suggested my answer #2 in the previous post. So let my answer confirm his response about feeding a processed output back to an input.


----------



## popalock

jrp said:


> For 1) *Gordon is correct that you get one calibration at a time but you can have a calibration for each TV/projector for the Processed outputs. So as long as you are watching only one at a time each can be properly calibrated.*
> 
> For 2) *For the Radiance Pro 4449 with 7 zones, you can wire a processed output back to a Radiance Pro input. Then that input can be "passed through" to any zone.* So this would allow you to choose one (or more if they shared the same setup) of the switched zone outputs to have processed video (or pass through from any input of course) while having only a single HDMI connection going to each zone.


Ok, so... If you can loop a processed output directly to one (1) of the inputs, thus allowing all of the matrixed sources to see said processed output, then *what is the point of having four (4) processed outputs*? Especially if those four (4) processed outputs can only display one (1) calibration at a time anyway? Why is this not a nine (9) zone switching device vs seven (7) zone?

I've tried to dig a little deeper and look at this from different angles, but the bottom-line is that if you can loop a processed output to one (1) of the inputs and it allows all devices to see the processed output, the additional three (3) processed outputs seem unnecessary. I know you mentioned that the processed output will default to the least capabable display settings, but if someone decided to loop a processed output to one (1) of the inputs, there would be no getting around this issue anyway...Meaning, if I was to feed my VW5000ES in my theater a processed output, then used one of the other processed outputs to loop into the matrixed zones, if I had a 720p panel in my gym was attempting to watch the same source as the Sony, the VW5000ES would only get a 720p processed singal...


----------



## stanger89

jrp said:


> The Pro will report and accept both Rec 2020 and HDR10 (when the software is done), and then output to a Non-HDR, Non Rec 2020 TV or projector (and those that support these of course). The calibrator would calibrate to the maximum brightness and use the HDR Gamma curve for the HDR mode.
> 
> Meta Data for HDR is supposed to report the Grading information. While we have not implemented it, the Radiance Pro will interpret the source per the Meta data and map it to the measured performance of the TV/projector. Said another way, the plan is to support material graded to different intensity levels and provide the best possible image on any TV or Projector that the TV/Projector is capable of, whether or not if has one or both HDR10 or Rec 2020 officially supported.
> 
> Generally the Gamut will be calibrated to Rec 2020 (even if it does not reach that far). We plan a flag in the Radiance Pro to specify whether a Gamut is calibrated to Red 2020 or Rec 709. That way a 709 would use the Rec 2020 calibration, but the Radiance would convert the data for a Rec 709 source to the correct subset of Rec 2020. You could choose to have another CMS memory be calibrated to Rec 709 and then the Radiance Pro would not convert the image data for a 709 source. The goal, though, is to have these two options look identical, thus making a second Rec 709 specific CMS unnecessary.
> 
> Current the Radiance Pro pipeline is 10-bit , and 12+ bits in the CMS section. We plan to increase these numbers by at least 1 additional bit of precision to account for the larger Rec 2020 Gamut.
> 
> The UHD 10-bit 4:2:0 source would be processed at 10-bits or more and it can be output in any supported bit depth. For example, even though a the first UHD player is not doing the right thing and allowing 24p material to be output at 12-bit 4:2:2, or 10-bit 4:2:0, as it should, with an 18 GHz input card on the Radiance Pro, the Pro can then change the format to the better choice of 12-bit 4:2:2 on output so these 24p sources can run at 9 GHz from the Radiance Pro to the TV or Projector.
> 
> I won't be commenting on the 18 GHz price in forums, but as to schedule we expect the 18 GHz cards to be available at the end of Q2. If you are interested in the Radiance Pro and want pricing information, please email us at [email protected] or call us at 503-574-2211.


You guys rock, wish I had the cash to upgrade.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

popalock said:


> Ok, so... If you can loop a processed output directly to one (1) of the inputs, thus allowing all of the matrixed sources to see said processed output, then *what is the point of having four (4) processed outputs*? Especially if those four (4) processed outputs can only display one (1) calibration at a time anyway? Why is this not a nine (9) zone switching device vs seven (7) zone?
> 
> I've tried to dig a little deeper and look at this from different angles, but the bottom-line is that if you can loop a processed output to one (1) of the inputs and it allows all devices to see the processed output, the additional three (3) processed outputs seem unnecessary. I know you mentioned that the processed output will default to the least capabable display settings, but if someone decided to loop a processed output to one (1) of the inputs, there would be no getting around this issue anyway...Meaning, if I was to feed my VW5000ES in my theater a processed output, then used one of the other processed outputs to loop into the matrixed zones, if I had a 720p panel in my gym was attempting to watch the same source as the Sony, the VW5000ES would only get a 720p processed singal...


----------



## popalock

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you use an input to feed a processed output then you lose one input for extra sources for a start.


Understood. Common sense. 



Gordon Fraser said:


> If you have non 4k DISPLAY on one of the first four outputs the video processor will *not* downscale all outputs to it's resolution forcing the 4K display to show lesser resolution.


^...This...conflicts with this...v


jrp said:


> also keep in mind, If you have all 4 zone 1 outputs activated/connected to appropriate displays, the Lumagen *will favor the least capable display for its processing*. i.e. If you happen to have a 720p Display there, all 4 will be outputting 720p. You can set the Lumagen to ignore EDID info from lesser displays and force output 4K but then the lesser displays will show no video.


So, is it is safe to assume that is a type-o and you meant the opposite? 



Gordon Fraser said:


> This would only happen when you were on the memory with the calibrated optimal settings for that small display. Each memory can be assigned different output resolutions and hdmi formats and CMS banks. So when you select the memory for the small tv the scaler woudl be set to automatically intergorate the EDID of that display and change it's output to optimal res and refresh, then, when you went back to your VW5000 it would do the same thing...and you'd get 4K and the small tv would lose it's image as it wouldn't support that.


Ok, so if I was solely watching the lesser resolution LCD on one of the processed outputs, the Lumagen would integrate with the EDID of that display to output the optimal settings. However, if I were to attempt to watch my 4K display simultaneously (on a processed output), the 4K display would still show the least capable display settings until I turned off the LCD. Upon turning off the lesser LCD display, it would allow the Lumagen to integrate the EDID and appropriate CMS bank of the calibrated 4K display... I totally get that. 

I still don't get why it makes sense to have four (4) processed outputs that can display only one (1) calibration at a time. If any of those outputs are "other than" a 4K display, it will simply down scale all outputs accordingly. 

How many CMS banks are there? In addition to the processed outputs, can each of the matrixed outputs be calibrated with their own CMS bank / memory as well? If so...I go back to my original question...*What is the point of having four (4) processed outputs that can only display one (1) calibration at a time?* It seems like an unnecessary redundancy when you could simply have more matrixed outputs, of which could receive a processed signal. 

The only down side I see to looping one of the processed outputs to one of the inputs, is that if I was watching a movie in 4K in the theater and my daughter decided that she wanted to watch the same source/movie in her room with her 1080p display, the signal to my 4K display would either be down scaled to the lesser display's settings, or she simply could not watch the movie because of the EDID issue... The same exact thing would happen if any other of the four (4) processed outputs were hooked up to a lesser display. However, if those other "processed outputs" were matrixed, she could watch a different source or even the actual bluray player source directly and be able to watch the movie... 

Is what I am saying making sense, or have I simply lost my marbles???


----------



## Chris5

why 4 processed outputs? - well...,
1 is configured for audio out only so it can feed my non HDCP 2.2 compliant AVAmp 
3 is configured for video only projector
4 is configured sound and vision for my tv.

The Radiance is not intended to be used the way you want as multimedia distribution hub.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 031616- Fixed issues with genlocking. Adds keystone correction in menu under Output: Styles: Mask/Shrink: Keystone. Adds "Auto" output type in menu under Output: Style: HDMI format: Type. Added "Field flip" option under Input: In Configs: RES: Control: Deinterlace: Field which may help with some interlaced sources. Fix for restoring ISF backup config. Added input and memory options for HDCP Type menu and for Genlock menu. Many other bugfixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Gordon Fraser

popalock. My comment and Jims comment actually say exactly the same thing only in different ways. (regarding how output resolution is handled on ZONE 1). i have a 4K capable projector and a 1080P tv attached to my RADIANCE and they can both get the resolutions they need just by changing memories. I have a dealer with 3 x 4K projectors and 1 x 1080P projector in his main demo suite and all are optimised and fed the resolutions they want with the CMS's they need just by changing memory on the Radiance.

Download the Pro manual (if it's available), and read it and you will see how auto edid works. Just now by default auto edid looks at OUTPUT 4 and uses that as basis for what resolution and refresh to use. You can, if you wish, create different memories with different output resolution and refresh rates assigned to all the different incoming resolution and refresh rate types for the other displays attached to ZONE 1 outputs. 

There are 8 CMS banks that are assignable.

Outputs, 5,6,7,8,9,10 on the matrix side are PASS THROUGH. There is no ability to do any video enhancement on them. The matrix switching ability in the Pro 4449 is currently ALPHA level. Exactly how Lumagen will deal with confilicts of different zones wanting to access sources already in use at higher resolutions or with different audio capabilities than the remote zone can deal with is, as yet, unknown.


----------



## popalock

Chris5 said:


> why 4 processed outputs? - well...,
> 1 is configured for audio out only so it can feed my non HDCP 2.2 compliant AVAmp
> 3 is configured for video only projector
> 4 is configured sound and vision for my tv.
> 
> The Radiance is not intended to be used the way you want as multimedia distribution hub.


It obviously is buil*t *to have some distribution capability...It has a matrix switcher. 

Why would it be suggested to loop one of the processed outputs into an input to get access to the processed signal in more zones?

Can you not configure the matrixed outputs to do what you are refering above in regards to configuring for audio or video only pass through?



Gordon Fraser said:


> popalock. My comment and Jims comment actually say exactly the same thing only in different ways. (regarding how output resolution is handled on ZONE 1). i have a 4K capable projector and a 1080P tv attached to my RADIANCE and they can both get the resolutions they need just by changing memories. I have a dealer with 3 x 4K projectors and 1 x 1080P projector in his main demo suite and all are optimised and fed the resolutions they want with the CMS's they need just by changing memory on the Radiance.
> 
> Download the Pro manual (if it's available), and read it and you will see how auto edid works. Just now by default auto edid looks at OUTPUT 4 and uses that as basis for what resolution and refresh to use. You can, if you wish, create different memories with different output resolution and refresh rates assigned to all the different incoming resolution and refresh rate types for the other displays attached to ZONE 1 outputs.
> 
> There are 8 CMS banks that are assignable.
> 
> Outputs, 5,6,7,8,9,10 on the matrix side are PASS THROUGH. There is no ability to do any video enhancement on them. The matrix switching ability in the Pro 4449 is currently ALPHA level. Exactly how Lumagen will deal with confilicts of different zones wanting to access sources already in use at higher resolutions or with different audio capabilities than the remote zone can deal with is, as yet, unknown.


Out of time, but I will be back with more questions...


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> I do not think there is any HDMI 1.4 device that support HDR, or Rec 2020, at least at this time. With the Radiance Pro in the middle doing the video processing (and once we have the HDR and Rec 2020 software in), for these devices you will be able to input HDR and Rec 2020 into the Radiance Pro, and have the Pro adapt it to display on your non-HDR, non-Rec 2020, TV/projector to have it look as good as possible.
> 
> We have a number of Radiance Pro customers using it with HDCP 1.X 4k and 1080p TVs and projectors and it works very well.
> 
> Since the Radiance Pro can do the switching, and output audio-only signal to the AVR, you do not need a new AVR to support 4k UHD HDR or Rec 2020 in the AVR.
> 
> The Radiance Pro would send 4k24 at 12-bit 4:2:2 to your projector for 24p movies, and 8-bit 4:2:0 for 4k60 output (dithered from the 12-bit internal back end so it will look nearly as good as 4:2:0 10-bit). You would need a device to convert HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.X to display the UHD on a HDCP 1.X TV/projector though.


Thanks Jim, makes perfect sense.


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## uderman

There are two types of commonly used accessories related to Hdmi inputs/outputs.

1- hdmi matrix switch
2- hdmi splitter

4449 gives you both in one box. It is totally up to you to utilize some or every bit of these options included in the 4449.

You have to understand the electronics side of this a bit. To have multiple (and independent) processed outputs, you would need multiple or much larger fpga's. 4449 as it is, already pushes the limits as far as the asking price/profit for its market. Having multiple processed outputs would result significant increase in the hardware cost. 

It is not for everyone but still a significant number ot people use hdmi splitters in their setups. It is cost effective to include this in the radiance therefore lumagen includes one on the zone 1. It happens to be more capable than a typical splitter. You can separate audio and video which allows older audio gear to work on 4k video.

I own a 4449 and a 2144, plan on buying a mini/2020 or two. I most care about my main theater, so that one gets the processed zone 1 port 4. My sound processor gets zone 1 port 3. I could care less if my kitchen tv is calibrated so that one gets one of the unprocessed outputs. I appreciate some processing in my bedroom tv so I am considering a 2020 on that output(its a 1080p plasma). I am not sure if I want a 4k tv or not on my living room but I would like some processing here. Depends on 4k or 2k tv, I will consider a 2020 or a 4440 here. You have to make these decisions and build your system. There is no one box solution that would satisfy all needs. If you have a good crestron and such programmer, you can make all these work seemlessly.


----------



## popalock

Gordon Fraser said:


> popalock. My comment and Jims comment actually say exactly the same thing only in different ways. (regarding how output resolution is handled on ZONE 1). i have a 4K capable projector and a 1080P tv attached to my RADIANCE and they can both get the resolutions they need just by changing memories. I have a dealer with 3 x 4K projectors and 1 x 1080P projector in his main demo suite and all are optimised and fed the resolutions they want with the CMS's they need just by changing memory on the Radiance.
> 
> *Download the Pro manual (if it's available)*, and read it and you will see how auto edid works. Just now by default auto edid looks at OUTPUT 4 and uses that as basis for what resolution and refresh to use. You can, if you wish, create different memories with different output resolution and refresh rates assigned to all the different incoming resolution and refresh rate types for the other displays attached to ZONE 1 outputs.
> 
> There are 8 CMS banks that are assignable.
> 
> Outputs, 5,6,7,8,9,10 on the matrix side are PASS THROUGH. There is no ability to do any video enhancement on them. The matrix switching ability in the Pro 4449 is currently ALPHA level. *Exactly how Lumagen will deal with confilicts of different zones wanting to access sources already in use at higher resolutions or with different audio capabilities than the remote zone can deal with is, as yet, unknown.*


Not sure why the Pro manual would be readily available to an average Joe like me since the unit is still in Beta... I looked and couldn't find anything. As many updates that are filtering down, I would imagine the manual is a very "live" document at the moment. 

I guess I need a diagram or some visual example to see the conclusion that you guys are trying to draw for me. 

I'll try to reframe my question a different way:

What would the drawbacks be if the Radiance Pro only had one (1) processed output that was looped back to one (1) input for all of the zones (other outputs) to see? 
- Assuming only one (1) display would be operating at any given time.
- Assuming each of the unprocessed outputs had their own calibration memory / CMS bank.

By looping the processed output to an input, would the processed output be able to detect the EDID information of a display from an unprocessed output attempting to utlize the looped processed signal? I mean, it would have to in order for looping the processed output to be a viable option in the first place, correct?

I'm really not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand the design limitations. I might have to give @jrp a call here soon to pick his brain because I'm not sure I am doing a good enough job getting my point across via the written word.


----------



## jrp

popalock and others:

Lots of posts, so I am going to try to answer some of the questions without quoting them here.

To understand why we choose to have four outputs on the 444X series consider that we choose dual output cards as optimal for manufacturing cost, verses repairability, verses upgradability. Then also consider 18 GHz I/O (Full spec HDMI 2.0a). The chips we will use take two 9 GHz inputs and then can output one 18 GHz A/V output and one audio only output. So four 9 GHz outputs on the the 444X will become two 18 GHz A/V outputs (one for a projector and one for a TV), plus an audio only output for your AVR, plus an orphan audio only output (that of course could be used for the second system it you have two complete setups that include an AVR each). 

We actually considered not punching the hole for output 3 which will become the orphan audio only output. However, four 9 GHz outputs has possibilities for certain markets, so we left it as four 9 GHz outputs.

On why two or four outputs that share a setup, consider that many theaters are a TV and a drop down screen in front of the TV. You can't watch both at the same time. So separate output setup and calibrations have no value and cost a lot to add. This would also be true as long as you watch only one TV/projector at a time.

Consider another case of a projector and a monitor by the equipment. You calibrate for the projector and send he same video to the monitor. The monitor of course would have to be calibrated using its internals to counteract the projector's calibration, but it is after all just a monitor and you can still get it pretty well calibrated even with the source image "biased" by the projector calibration.

To affirm Gordon's correction of an earlier post, the Radiance Pro 444X reads the EDID from the device on output 4 and uses its EDID to determine the output rate. It is not the least capable device that sets the output rate. So with a 4k TV on output 4 and a 1080p TV on output 3, the 1080p TV would not work. If you swap and put the 1080p TV on output 4 the output would be 1080p. NOTE: If the device on output 4 is made not visible to the Pro (turned off often works depending on if the EDID can still be read in its off state), then the Pro reads the EDID for the device on output 3 and uses it to set the output rate. Then if the device on output 3 is made not visible to the Pro it continues on to output 2's EDID. So you can make a system work with 4k and 1080p by switching off the 4k device (or if its EDID is readable when off, passing it through a switch that effectively disconnects it).

The suggestion of looping back a processed output to an input on the 4449 was just a thought to eliminate the second cable to the distant TV. At this time the matrix outputs do not read the EDID of the device on their output. They expect that the device will accept whatever is selected. Later we *may* add some EDID programming capability for the switched zones, but that has issues as well. For example, you are watching a 4k HDCP 2.2 HDR Rec 2020 movie with Dolby TrueHD audio in the theater and someone in the house selects the same input for 1080p bedroom TV with 2 channel PCM. Does the Pro dumb down the source by toggling hotplug and telling it to change to 1080p, Rec709, 2 channel PCM and drop out the picture in the theater during the switch? We actually prefer the model we are using that insures all zones have an AVR and be at a resolution that supports any source you expect to select. That means someone in another room selecting the same input as the theater is using does not disrupt or change the theater image.

If you do loop a processed output back, even though the switched output does not read the EDID of the device on its output, you can change the processed output to match the capabilities. You could for example set up MEMA to output up to 4k, and then MEMB to output up to 1080p. The control system, or control person , can select MEMA if only 4k devices are to use the processed output back through the switch, or select MEMB if a 1080p TV is to use the processed output back through the switch.

As Gordon mentioned the Radiance Pro 4449 (8 in, 4 processed out, 6 switched zone outputs without processing) is at Alpha level for software. Hardware is believed to be production level. We are selling it on a limited basis, and I vet each customer to make sure it will do what they need and they understand that we are not committing to any additional features for the Matrix unprocessed outputs other than what is there now (you can select an input independent of all other zones, which is basic of course). 

===

The Radiance Pro manual is not posted yet. I did go thought and get it to match the changed menu structure for what is currently implemented in the Radiance Pro, but have some editing to do still. Once I am done I will post it.


----------



## thrang

Jim, thanks for all this detail...now, the hell with all this peripheral nonsense! Get back to work and give us the meat (2020) and potatoes (HDR) we are craving!


----------



## popalock

jrp said:


> popalock and others:
> 
> Lots of posts, so I am going to try to answer some of the questions without quoting them here.


jrp, 

Thanks for taking the time to break it down. I feel I do have a better grasp for the most part. I'm going to have to try to make time to give you a call sometime soon instead of continuing to smear my ignorance all over this tread...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

popalock said:


> jrp,
> 
> give you a call sometime soon instead of continuing to smear my ignorance all over this tread...


lol!

http://www.avsforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## p5browne

Now then, what happens if you have an 18 GHz Input?


----------



## Chris5

So currently I can only get 4:2:0 out of my Pro when feeding my 4K tv at 50hz from a SD/HD source. I thought I would have to upgrade the output hardware at some point to 18ghz to improve this. What Jim was saying above implies that at a future time(?) I will be able to 'tie' 2 outputs together to achieve this. Is that correct?. 

Secondly would I see any improvement in output quality anyway if it was 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 fed to the TV?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Chris

You will be able to output 4:2:2 12bit 4K24 without changing hardware. It just isn't in firmware yet


----------



## jrp

Chris5 said:


> So currently I can only get 4:2:0 out of my Pro when feeding my 4K tv at 50hz from a SD/HD source. I thought I would have to upgrade the output hardware at some point to 18ghz to improve this. What Jim was saying above implies that at a future time(?) I will be able to 'tie' 2 outputs together to achieve this. Is that correct?.
> 
> Secondly would I see any improvement in output quality anyway if it was 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 fed to the TV?


The current Radiance Pro units have 9 GHz I/O and support 4:2:2, 12-bit, at 4K24, and 8-bit, 4:2:0 at 4k60. These are in the software already.

Since consumer sources - even UHD - are 4:2:0 there is really no advantage to having the source output anything but 4:2:0 at the bit depth of the source (8-bit for up to HD, and 10-bit for UHD).

So designing a UHD player that outputs only 4:4:4 is, at least from a technical perspective, dumb. You double the data rate, producing huge new issues, with the requirement for 18 GHz cables and 18 GHz inputs on TVs and projectors, for no image quality improvement.

As the above implies 9 GHz I/O, with well designed sources, is already more than is needed for UHD at 24 Hertz (virtually all movies). Where 18 GHz comes into play is for 4k50/4k60 UHD sources coded as 10-bit 4:2:0, and even then you only need somewhere in the range of 10.2 to 11.5 Gbps depending on blanking, and not the full 18 GHz.

===== 

As to seeing quality improvements from UHD 10-bit sources by sending 12-bit 4:2:2 or 10-bit 4:4:4 to the TV from the Radiance:

Since the Radiance Pro is modifying the data for scaling and calibration, it can be argued that a higher bit depth *may* produce a noticeably improved image. I think one example would be calibrating the Radiance to show HDR on a non-HDR TV or projector. With the much higher Gamma of HDR, having more bits on the output to a Rec 709, Gamma 2.2, TV/projector might produce a better image. The Radiance Pro already can output 12-bit 4:2:2 at 4k24 for movies. So 4:2:2 output will remain the suggested output mode for all 24p source.

As to outputting UHD as 4:4:4 or RGB: These do NOT add any real data to the image. For example, when properly done, if you convert 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, you can convert back to 4:2:0 without losing source data. So the Radiance Pro can convert 4:2:0 source to RGB for internal processing (using a filter), and then on the output back to 4:2:0. Then of course the TV/Projector filters and adds the non-coincident Chroma samples to the data before converting to RGB for display.


----------



## Chris5

jrp said:


> The current Radiance Pro units have 9 GHz I/O and support 4:2:2, 12-bit, at 4K24, and 8-bit, 4:2:0 at 4k60. These are in the software already.
> 
> Since consumer sources - even UHD - are 4:2:0 there is really no advantage to having the source output anything but 4:2:0 at the bit depth of the source (8-bit for up to HD, and 10-bit for UHD).
> 
> So designing a UHD player that outputs only 4:4:4 is, at least from a technical perspective, dumb. You double the data rate, producing huge new issues, with the requirement for 18 GHz cables and 18 GHz inputs on TVs and projectors, for no image quality improvement.
> 
> As the above implies 9 GHz I/O, with well designed sources, is already more than is needed for UHD at 24 Hertz (virtually all movies). Where 18 GHz comes into play is for 4k50/4k60 UHD sources coded as 10-bit 4:2:0, and even then you only need somewhere in the range of 10.2 to 11.5 Gbps depending on blanking, and not the full 18 GHz.
> 
> =====
> 
> As to seeing quality improvements from UHD 10-bit sources by sending 12-bit 4:2:2 or 10-bit 4:4:4 to the TV from the Radiance:
> 
> Since the Radiance Pro is modifying the data for scaling and calibration, it can be argued that a higher bit depth *may* produce a noticeably improved image. I think one example would be calibrating the Radiance to show HDR on a non-HDR TV or projector. With the much higher Gamma of HDR, having more bits on the output to a Rec 709, Gamma 2.2, TV/projector might produce a better image. The Radiance Pro already can output 12-bit 4:2:2 at 4k24 for movies. So 4:2:2 output will remain the suggested output mode for all 24p source.
> 
> As to outputting UHD as 4:4:4 or RGB: These do NOT add any real data to the image. For example, when properly done, if you convert 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, you can convert back to 4:2:0 without losing source data. So the Radiance Pro can convert 4:2:0 source to RGB for internal processing (using a filter), and then on the output back to 4:2:0. Then of course the TV/Projector filters and adds the non-coincident Chroma samples to the data before converting to RGB for display.


Thanks Gordon & Jim. I'll try to stop losing sleep about only getting 4:2:0 out then


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 032416- Several bugfixes for keystone correction. Timing improvement in fpga to correct some issues with video. Fixed up some issues with custom timing mode setup in menu. Adds rs232 darbee enhancement control--command is "ZY517GGGME". GGG is the gain with range of 000-120 or "KKK" to keep current value. Also GGG can be "+01" to "+99" or "-01" to "-99" for making relative changes. M is the mode and can be 'P'/'G'/'H' or 'K' which correspond to Pop/Game/HD modes or Keep current setting. E is enable with legal values being '0'/'1'/'K' for off/on or Keep current setting. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## netroamer

thrang said:


> Jim, thanks for all this detail...now, the hell with all this peripheral nonsense! Get back to work and give us the meat (2020) and potatoes (HDR) we are craving!


Perhaps not as blunt in tone, but I do agree with trang. I could care less about keystone etc. when I am waiting for HDR!


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 040216- Fixed bug in 0316-0324 firmware which caused several different video problems (blurred/dark/none). Fixed issue with setup for 480i/576i that caused black crush. Fixed issue that could cause no video output to be turned on in some cases. Fixed issue when restoring 3D mode after test pattern enabled. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## tspotorno

Anyone having issues with 04022016?

Decided to update the firmware this weekend as I had skipped the last 1 or 2 updates and now no video output to the projector. Audio from Output1 is working, just no video...

I've re flashed twice to see if it fixes the issue, last try using force and the power off / power on mode, but still no video. I know the projector is getting some sort of handshake as the projector shows an x in front of the input if it does not detect a signal goes away when I turn on the device...

Gonna try to go back to the previous version, just curious if others are having issues as well? This box has been very problematic since the upgrade from the previous version!!


----------



## tspotorno

Just FYI incase anyone else has issues. Menu 099 Factory Reset was required on the latest build to view video... Gotta remember to write down all the settings somewhere to make it easier to recover from this sort of issue in the future.


----------



## Mark_H

Could you not upload your settings using the config tool afterwards, or does that reintroduce the issue??


----------



## sjschaff

Odd. I downloaded 040216 a few days ago. Ran the update. Did not have to run any Menu 099 reset. Everything worked fine. What caused you to do so?


----------



## tspotorno

Not sure why, I've had issues with firmware updates on this device in the past.

I was not up to date with the firmware updates thou, and lots of changes were made that might have caused older settings to cause an issue.


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on updates.

The updates should not your affect your settings. However, a while back there was a major change in the data structure (was noted in update log), and if yours was older than that you might have had to do a "Factory Reset" which is MENU 0999 followed by a Save.

We do not anticipate any future major data structure changes that would invalidate your configuration, but it is possible. We will do our best to make any data structure changes invisible so as to not cause issues with your configuration.

You can use the Config Reader from our support page under utilities to download your config to a PC (don't forget to save to a file after your download the config) before you update. Then if there is an issue in the config after the update you can then upload the config again. It runs like the updater. In the past we have updated the Config Reader to translate between data structures and while we do not anticipate allowing older non-Pro configs to be loaded into the Pro, if we do change the data structure we will try hard to make sure the config reader will load an older config into the newer data structure automatically.

If you do an update and you think it did not work well, you can do a "Boot Mode Update" to recover. It is described in the the Tech Tip that comes with each update. When doing a Boot Mode Update the microprocessor has not booted the normal software and so is fully available to do the update. Normally this is not required, but while we did have an issue with normal update mode form older software, the Boot Mode Update has always worked well and is a way to recover from an update gone bad.


----------



## pliesj

I have an extensive film collection that includes thousands of rare titles in 480/576 i/p that will never see HD transfers. Thus, I am looking for a processor with excellent scaling and deinterlacing capabilities. I can find very little about the scaling algorithms implemented by Lumagen. I could not locate any patents granted to Lumagen that discuss the algorithms that are employed. If Lumagen does have any patents, I would appreciate it if someone could provide the patent numbers. 

I would like to know more detail about the algorithms used in the product before purchasing one, especially considering the price of the processor. What is the nature of the scaling algorithm? For instance, from what family of scaling algorithms is it derived?


Sinc-type (Lanczos, Spline, Jinc) (perhaps with AR filter)?
XBR or Super-XBR?
NNEDI3? (perhaps in conjunction with a Sinc step after doubling/quadrupling?)
Single-frame Super Resolution?
Multi-frame Super Resolution? 



With respect to deinterlacing, the Lumagen website merely has the vague statement "Per-pixel motion adaptive HD and SD deinterlacing." Any additional information would be helpful.


----------



## uderman

pliesj said:


> I have an extensive film collection that includes thousands of rare titles in 480/576 i/p that will never see HD transfers. Thus, I am looking for a processor with excellent scaling and deinterlacing capabilities. I can find very little about the scaling algorithms implemented by Lumagen. I could not locate any patents granted to Lumagen that discuss the algorithms that are employed. If Lumagen does have any patents, I would appreciate it if someone could provide the patent numbers.
> 
> I would like to know more detail about the algorithms used in the product before purchasing one, especially considering the price of the processor. What is the nature of the scaling algorithm? For instance, from what family of scaling algorithms is it derived?
> 
> 
> Sinc-type (Lanczos, Spline, Jinc) (perhaps with AR filter)?
> XBR or Super-XBR?
> NNEDI3? (perhaps in conjunction with a Sinc step after doubling/quadrupling?)
> Single-frame Super Resolution?
> Multi-frame Super Resolution?
> 
> 
> 
> With respect to deinterlacing, the Lumagen website merely has the vague statement "Per-pixel motion adaptive HD and SD deinterlacing." Any additional information would be helpful.



Which processor/player are you using now? I use their 2144 for SD deinterlacing. The film mode (which will be implemented later on the pro as well) is superior to gennum vxp gf9450, hqv reon/realta/vida, Faroudja fli2310, dvdo abt2015. It stays in film mode correctly and with the genlock it can tearlessly reconstruct 24 frames from 60. Mixed and video modes are yet to be seen as they are still under development. Earlier models such as 2144 relies on gennum vxp gf9450 for mixed and video mode. Pro model uses their own video deinterlacing. It had nearly no combing but vxp has a few advantages over it still. Later revisions will likely match and beat vxp. 

Scaling is second to none. I use VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, VCD, both in Pal and Ntsc. Nothing scales better than Lumagen, especially for analog medias like VHS and LDs. I used Faroudja NRS, DVDO VP50, Crystalio II, Algolith Dragonfly before none came remotely close.


----------



## ScottJ

uderman said:


> Earlier models such as 2144...


Did you mean some other number here?


----------



## pliesj

uderman said:


> Which processor/player are you using now? I use their 2144 for SD deinterlacing. The film mode (which will be implemented later on the pro as well) is superior to gennum vxp gf9450, hqv reon/realta/vida, Faroudja fli2310, dvdo abt2015. It stays in film mode correctly and with the genlock it can tearlessly reconstruct 24 frames from 60. Mixed and video modes are yet to be seen as they are still under development. Earlier models such as 2144 relies on gennum vxp gf9450 for mixed and video mode. Pro model uses their own video deinterlacing. It had nearly no combing but vxp has a few advantages over it still. Later revisions will likely match and beat vxp.
> 
> Scaling is second to none. I use VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, VCD, both in Pal and Ntsc. Nothing scales better than Lumagen, especially for analog medias like VHS and LDs. I used Faroudja NRS, DVDO VP50, Crystalio II, Algolith Dragonfly before none came remotely close.


underman - thanks for the info. Appreciate your input from someone who has used so many different processors. My sources are a mix of Oppo 83, DirecTV, and HTPC with many VHS and LD transfers. 

I still would like more information about what is going on under the hood. I am not looking for the specific equations/algorithms, just a little more detail as to which families of scaling and deinterlacing techniques are being employed. Many companies have white papers and/or patents describing their algorithms. Lumagen's approach seems to be somewhat of a mystery in spite of its positive reputation. If Lumagen used something as sophisticated as NNEDI3 or Super Resolution I would expect they would advertise that fact, which leads me to think they probably use something more conventional such as a highly optimized Lanczos with AR filter


----------



## uderman

ScottJ said:


> Did you mean some other number here?


I am using a 2144 for sd sources and 4449 for anything else. 2144 is the earlier flagship model with analog inputs and 4k60 output(2K inputs only). All radiance models from xd to 2144 use gennum vxp gf9450 for deinterlacing, noise reduction, sharpness, detail enhancement. Lumagen later added the ability to bypass this chip for their own fpga based film mode deinterlacing. This film mode deinterlacer has been around for a few years (since xe I think) and proven to work great. It should soon be ported to pro models.

Lumagen doesn't have any plans to add analog inputs to pro models currently so I am keeping my 2144 for my laserdisc players and muse decoder.


----------



## henrich3

pliesj said:


> I have an extensive film collection that includes thousands of rare titles in 480/576 i/p that will never see HD transfers. Thus, I am looking for a processor with excellent scaling and deinterlacing capabilities. I can find very little about the scaling algorithms implemented by Lumagen. I could not locate any patents granted to Lumagen that discuss the algorithms that are employed. If Lumagen does have any patents, I would appreciate it if someone could provide the patent numbers.
> 
> I would like to know more detail about the algorithms used in the product before purchasing one, especially considering the price of the processor. What is the nature of the scaling algorithm? For instance, from what family of scaling algorithms is it derived?
> 
> 
> Sinc-type (Lanczos, Spline, Jinc) (perhaps with AR filter)?
> XBR or Super-XBR?
> NNEDI3? (perhaps in conjunction with a Sinc step after doubling/quadrupling?)
> Single-frame Super Resolution?
> Multi-frame Super Resolution?
> 
> 
> 
> With respect to deinterlacing, the Lumagen website merely has the vague statement "Per-pixel motion adaptive HD and SD deinterlacing." Any additional information would be helpful.


Reading a patent on chocolate won't tell you if it's tasty. If your objective is to find the best video processor, you'd be better off reading pro reviews and owner impressions (AVS Forum threads) of the products that you're considering.

Here's a review of the last generation Radiance, along with a competitor's product (DVDO iScan Duo). The reviewer, Kris Deering, said that while the competition did a good job, "_the Lumagen’s scaling was noticeably sharper than the DVDO’s_". Kris also said of the Radiance "_despite an obvious improvement in image detail, I didn’t see any signs of halos/ringing or the artificial edge enhancement on objects that is a common artifact with upscaling_".

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/lumagen-radiance-series-and-dvdo-iscan-duo-high-definition-video-processors#tvAw0ZRL1QbLxqAY.97

There's a lot more to a Radiance Pro than just deinterlacing & scaling however. A Pro can host a 4913 point 3D LUT calibration (17x17x17 cube). Obviously that many adjustments would be impractical to do manually. Lumagen has worked closely with calibration tool vendors like SpectraCal (CalMAN) and Light Illusion (LightSpace) so their products can automate much of the calibration. A 3D LUT calibration will be _far_ more accurate than just calibrating a display directly or using a less capable VP. 

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/White%20Papers/Display%20Profiling%20Solutions.pdf


----------



## uderman

pliesj said:


> underman - thanks for the info. Appreciate your input from someone who has used so many different processors. My sources are a mix of Oppo 83, DirecTV, and HTPC with many VHS and LD transfers.
> 
> I still would like more information about what is going on under the hood. I am not looking for the specific equations/algorithms, just a little more detail as to which families of scaling and deinterlacing techniques are being employed. Many companies have white papers and/or patents describing their algorithms. Lumagen's approach seems to be somewhat of a mystery in spite of its positive reputation. If Lumagen used something as sophisticated as NNEDI3 or Super Resolution I would expect they would advertise that fact, which leads me to think they probably use something more conventional such as a highly optimized Lanczos with AR filter


I tried so many different players and processors but haven't found one that is perfect for sd deinterlacing. They are only satisfactory. You, I and maybe a few other make up %1 of the market with our extensive SD library, it is highly unlikely we will see the perfect SD deinterlacer ever unfortunately. Scaling though, Lumagen is as good as it gets, near perfect. Since Lumagen I don't use any noise reduction or enhancement (I have a couple of Algolith Mosquito HDMIs for this alone). Mosquito noise and ringing? Not even once! Lumagen scaling is very transparent, it doesn't amplify the imperfections in the video. I am sure Jim can explain the details you ask for. I always visually compared processors and players, never really compared them on their tech sheets. Your oppo 83 uses abt2015 chip, it is a very aggressive scaler. Lumagen looks very different comparing to this chips scaling. Abt2015 chips might beat lumagens deinterlacing in some unusual cadenced videos.


----------



## ScottJ

uderman said:


> I am using a 2144 for sd sources and 4449 for anything else. 2144 is the earlier flagship model with analog inputs and 4k60 output(2K inputs only). All radiance models from xd to 2144 use gennum vxp gf9450 for deinterlacing, noise reduction, sharpness, detail enhancement. Lumagen later added the ability to bypass this chip for their own fpga based film mode deinterlacing. This film mode deinterlacer has been around for a few years (since xe I think) and proven to work great. It should soon be ported to pro models.
> 
> Lumagen doesn't have any plans to add analog inputs to pro models currently so I am keeping my 2144 for my laserdisc players and muse decoder.


I misinterpreted your earlier post. Thanks for clarification.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Just ordered Pro 4444, thank you Gordon and planning to do a lot of tests with 4k source. Will definitely update here in that thread, btw will be selling 2143 its in mint condition.


----------



## stanger89

pliesj said:


> underman - thanks for the info. Appreciate your input from someone who has used so many different processors. My sources are a mix of Oppo 83, DirecTV, and HTPC with many VHS and LD transfers.


I just wanted to throw this out there, but from the HTPC, you're better off doing at least the deinterlacing on the HTPC, since PCs don't have a "Source Direct"/no processing output option, it's impossible to output untouched interlaced video. Even if you set your PC to output 480i, and your source is 480i, the video was still rendered to an progressive surface in between and there's no guarantee that field order is maintained. So your best options for anything PC sourced is either madVR, or offline conversion.


----------



## pliesj

stanger89 said:


> I just wanted to throw this out there, but from the HTPC, you're better off doing at least the deinterlacing on the HTPC, since PCs don't have a "Source Direct"/no processing output option, it's impossible to output untouched interlaced video. Even if you set your PC to output 480i, and your source is 480i, the video was still rendered to an progressive surface in between and there's no guarantee that field order is maintained. So your best options for anything PC sourced is either madVR, or offline conversion.


Yes. You are right. And I do. AMD's vector adaptive deinterlacing does an ok job for the program material I have on the HTPC. And MadVR permits me to select and configure the scaling, AR, and enhancement algorithms.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> A couple comments on updates.
> 
> The updates should not your affect your settings. However, a while back there was a major change in the data structure (was noted in update log), and if yours was older than that you might have had to do a "Factory Reset" which is MENU 0999 followed by a Save.


Hi Jim any updates on when HDR feature will be released in firmware? Thank you.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> The current Radiance Pro units have 9 GHz I/O and support 4:2:2, 12-bit, at 4K24, and 8-bit, 4:2:0 at 4k60. These are in the software already.
> 
> Since consumer sources - even UHD - are 4:2:0 there is really no advantage to having the source output anything but 4:2:0 at the bit depth of the source (8-bit for up to HD, and 10-bit for UHD).
> 
> So designing a UHD player that outputs only 4:4:4 is, at least from a technical perspective, dumb. You double the data rate, producing huge new issues, with the requirement for 18 GHz cables and 18 GHz inputs on TVs and projectors, for no image quality improvement.
> 
> As the above implies 9 GHz I/O, with well designed sources, is already more than is needed for UHD at 24 Hertz (virtually all movies). Where 18 GHz comes into play is for 4k50/4k60 UHD sources coded as 10-bit 4:2:0, and even then you only need somewhere in the range of 10.2 to 11.5 Gbps depending on blanking, and not the full 18 GHz.
> 
> =====
> 
> As to seeing quality improvements from UHD 10-bit sources by sending 12-bit 4:2:2 or 10-bit 4:4:4 to the TV from the Radiance:
> 
> Since the Radiance Pro is modifying the data for scaling and calibration, it can be argued that a higher bit depth *may* produce a noticeably improved image. I think one example would be calibrating the Radiance to show HDR on a non-HDR TV or projector. With the much higher Gamma of HDR, having more bits on the output to a Rec 709, Gamma 2.2, TV/projector might produce a better image. The Radiance Pro already can output 12-bit 4:2:2 at 4k24 for movies. So 4:2:2 output will remain the suggested output mode for all 24p source.
> 
> As to outputting UHD as 4:4:4 or RGB: These do NOT add any real data to the image. For example, when properly done, if you convert 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, you can convert back to 4:2:0 without losing source data. So the Radiance Pro can convert 4:2:0 source to RGB for internal processing (using a filter), and then on the output back to 4:2:0. Then of course the TV/Projector filters and adds the non-coincident Chroma samples to the data before converting to RGB for display.


Jim:

Directv is now Broadcasting special event sporting events in 4k60 4:2:0 10 bit, is this outside the bandwitdth of the Radiance Pro 9GHZ cards?


----------



## Manni01

LJG said:


> Jim:
> 
> Directv is now Broadcasting special event sporting events in 4k60 4:2:0 10 bit, is this outside the bandwitdth of the Radiance Pro 9GHZ cards?


Not Jim, but yes it is outside, the max is 4K60 4:2:0 8bits with a 10.2Gb/s HDMI interface (HDMI 2.0 Level B).

DirectTV might offer a compatibility mode in 8bits for displays/processors with a limited bandwidth. This is what BT Sports does in the UK.


----------



## uderman

I remember someone in lumagen beta from mentioning he could watch those directv shows in 8 bit.


----------



## mry110

I just ordered a Radiance Pro last night and I'm anxious to put it to use. Could some one help me with the calibration workflow. I have a Sony 1100ES projector. Do I start by calibrating the projector without the Lumagen and then add the Lumagen for CMS, or do I jump right to calibrating with the Lumagen? Also, what should I be calibrating to (DCI/P3 or 709)? I have the Samsung UHD Bluray player if that influences the answer.


----------



## Surfdrifter

mry110 said:


> I just ordered a Radiance Pro last night and I'm anxious to put it to use. Could some one help me with the calibration workflow. I have a Sony 1100ES projector. Do I start by calibrating the projector without the Lumagen and then add the Lumagen for CMS, or do I jump right to calibrating with the Lumagen? Also, what should I be calibrating to (DCI/P3 or 709)? I have the Samsung UHD Bluray player if that influences the answer.




Which software will you be using and which spectro/colorimeter do you have?


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> As to outputting UHD as 4:4:4 or RGB: These do NOT add any real data to the image. For example, when properly done, if you convert 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, you can convert back to 4:2:0 without losing source data. So the Radiance Pro can convert 4:2:0 source to RGB for internal processing (using a filter), and then on the output back to 4:2:0. Then of course the TV/Projector filters and adds the non-coincident Chroma samples to the data before converting to RGB for display.


I set the K8500 4K Samsung to output limited (16-235) RGB, how can I output 4K at 4:2:0 from the Pro 4444?

ss


----------



## sillysally

mry110 said:


> I just ordered a Radiance Pro last night and I'm anxious to put it to use. Could some one help me with the calibration workflow. I have a Sony 1100ES projector. Do I start by calibrating the projector without the Lumagen and then add the Lumagen for CMS, or do I jump right to calibrating with the Lumagen? Also, what should I be calibrating to (DCI/P3 or 709)? I have the Samsung UHD Bluray player if that influences the answer.


Until the Pro gets its UHD upgrades, I would use REC.709 as a calibration target point.
You can use the Lumagen's 21 point grayscale adjustments or your display's grayscale adjustments.
I use my displays High/Low RGB adjustments to set my white point and balance (RGB/Temp/Gamma). Then I use Lightspace CMS to run a 9261 point profile, make the 3DLUT and upload to the Lumagen. Once the 3DLUT is uploaded, check out CMS>grayscale. You will see that the 21 point Lumagen adjustments have been changed slightly. 

ss


----------



## mry110

Surfdrifter said:


> Which software will you be using and which spectro/colorimeter do you have?


Calman5 and a C6-HDR.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

mry110 said:


> I just ordered a Radiance Pro last night and I'm anxious to put it to use. Could some one help me with the calibration workflow. I have a Sony 1100ES projector. Do I start by calibrating the projector without the Lumagen and then add the Lumagen for CMS, or do I jump right to calibrating with the Lumagen? Also, what should I be calibrating to (DCI/P3 or 709)? I have the Samsung UHD Bluray player if that influences the answer.


There are many ways how you can calibrate. I personally find best steps do to setting brightness and contrast by patterns using JVC controls, and then having direct connection from Software to a Lumagen control lumagen test patterns and allow Lumagen to do the job. ChromaPure standard has inbuilt controls of Lumagen to readjust CMS. If you use Calman I believe you can do autocalibration for whole 3d LUT gamut, as I understand your colormeter is quite good and better than i1d3 I would do 17x17x17 whole 3d Lut gamut. 
At the moment I would use Rec.709 as reference simply because Lumagen Pro doesn't have HDR feature yet so Rec.2020 is not available, but will be available quite soon. I adjust Greyscale for Gamma using Lumagen's controls and find its perfect to match 2.2 gamma curve as JVC's native control is awful for gamma adjusting. At the end just save into CMS slot.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 040616- Bugfix for genlock sometimes causing picture to blank out momentarily or for video to not come on. Bugfix for not resetting colors correctly on factory reset. Fix for poweron issue not selecting correct memory. Fix for small error in chroma blue which was most noticeable when chroma upsample error correction (CUE) was enabled. Added 3D mode support to keystone correction. Couple of other small fixes and improvements. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 041416- Previous updates were not allowing NLS to be configurable in the menu. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## turls

Manni01 said:


> Not Jim, but yes it is outside, the max is 4K60 4:2:0 8bits with a 10.2Gb/s HDMI interface (HDMI 2.0 Level B).
> 
> DirectTV might offer a compatibility mode in 8bits for displays/processors with a limited bandwidth. This is what BT Sports does in the UK.


I've watched this programming, but I am not sure whether DirecTV is providing a compatibility mode, or the Lumagen is doing a conversion. Its on a 1100ES so it couldn't handle anything above 10.2Gb/s anyway.


----------



## LJG

I might have mispoken it looks like Directv was broadcasting Masters in 4K60 4:2:0 8 bit....At least that's what my Integral recently reported


----------



## LJG

Any further word on HDR/ Wide color update, and 18 GHZ cards?


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Lumagen has uploaded the RadiancePro 42xx/44xx Manual, you can download it from here: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_with_cover_040116.pdf


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

That's for those who doubt and always asks questions about content and its bandwidth. Please see attachment and stop asking questions in regards to this. 

Thank you.


----------



## Manni01

SoulOfUniverse said:


> That's for those who doubt and always asks questions about content and its bandwidth. Please see attachment and stop asking questions in regards to this.
> 
> Thank you.


Unnecessary, especially as your graph is wrong 

The line dividing HDMI 1.4 and HDMI 2.0 should be one line lower (as the numbers are correct).

4K60 8bits 4:2:0 fits fine in HDMI 1.4 or HDMI 2.0 level B bandwidth (under 10.2 gb/s).

So get your chart corrected or post a correct one instead of spreading misinformation


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Manni01 said:


> SoulOfUniverse said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's for those who doubt and always asks questions about content and its bandwidth. Please see attachment and stop asking questions in regards to this.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unnecessary, especially as your graph is wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The line dividing HDMI 1.4 and HDMI 2.0 should be one line lower (as the numbers are correct).
> 
> 4K60 8bits 4:2:0 fits fine in HDMI 1.4 or HDMI 2.0 level B bandwidth (under 10.2 gb/s).
> 
> So get your chart corrected or post a correct one instead of spreading misinformation
Click to expand...

It is correct you cannot pass [email protected] over 1.4 HDMI even tha bandwith allows this to do, so before trying to be cheeky make sure you post correct information, otherwise provide url with statements you are up to.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It is correct you cannot pass [email protected] over 1.4 HDMI even tha bandwith allows this to do, so before trying to be cheeky make sure you post correct information, otherwise provide url with statements you are up to.


Radiance 2143 passes 4K60 8bit 4:2:0 no problem...HDMI1.4 so it would appear that it is up to the implementation in the device.


----------



## stanger89

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It is correct you cannot pass [email protected] over 1.4 HDMI even tha bandwith allows this to do, so before trying to be cheeky make sure you post correct information, otherwise provide url with statements you are up to.


As does my JVC RS4910 (accept 4K60 8bit 4:2:0) despite not having HDMI 2.0.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Then taking my words back and will rework the chart, the issue in the chart is that it relates to True 4K signal not UHD signal, so you can pass 4k UHD @ 60 at 4:2:0 8 bit over 1.4 but not 4K 4096x2160 at 4:2:0 8 bit.


----------



## Manni01

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It is correct you cannot pass [email protected] over 1.4 HDMI even tha bandwith allows this to do, so before trying to be cheeky make sure you post correct information, otherwise provide url with statements you are up to.


This simply isn't true. My JVC X500 has 10.2Gb/s HDMI 1.4 hardware and accepts 4K60p in 8bits 4:2:0 thanks to a f/w change. True, it is in fact HDMI 2.0 level B, but JVC never claimed HDMI 2.0 compliance because they were still using HDMI 1.4 hardware.

What manufacturers like Sony have done is use HDMI 1.4 hardware and added one HDMI 2.0 profile like support for 4:2:0 at 60p and claimed HDMI 2.0 compatibility (which is HDMI 2.0 Level B).

Any chart like this should make the difference between HDMI 2.0 Level A (18Gb/s) and level B (10.2Gb/s) to be useful.

Some manufacturers like JVC who added a single 4K60p 4:2:0 8bits to their HDMI 1.4 hardware didn't claim HDMI 2.0 compliance, probably because they didn't support HDCP 2.2 like Sony did. Alsothe title is confusing because what they call HDMI 2.0a is HDMI 2.0 Level A (18Gb/s), not HDMI 2.0a (which added HDR10 support, but can also be implemented on HDMI 2.0 level B / HDMI 1.4 bandwidth, as Sony did with their VW520ES).

So you do have displays and other devices with HDMI 1.4 hardware supporting 4K60p at 8bits 4:2:0, even if they don't claim HDMI 2.0 compliance.

A table like this one http://www.hdfever.fr/2013/11/14/tableau-comparatif-hdmi-1-4-vs-hdmi-2-0a-vs-hdmi-2-0b/ which shows the difference between the various levels is a bit more useful, although it doesn't help that much for manufacturers who use HDMI 1.4 hardware and support 4K60 4:2:0 8bits without claiming HDMI 2.0 compliance.

In any case, at the moment, the Radiance Pro is an HDMI 2.0 level B device (it does support 4K60p 4:2:0 8bits). It will become HDMI 2.0 level A with the 18Gb/s HDMI in/out boards, and HDMI 2.0a when it supports HDR/BT2020 (HDMI 2.0a will be supported on both the original 10.2Gb/s boards and the new 18Gb/s boards).


----------



## Mark_H

Just to say that I'm successfully running the new Panasonic UHD player, via HDFury Integral, into the Lumagen Pro.

I currently have it set up for:

2160p SDR/Rec709 YCbCr 4:4:2 12-bit.

for my projector, but it is of course possible to send 2020/HDR through the Fury too.

Anyway, the Panny player/HDFury combo is a happy one with the Pro.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

and at the risk of causing more controversy...you can send 4K60 as well as UHD60 out a Radiance 2143 HDMI1.4 spec scaler.....there is no doubt though it's all very confusing for folk


----------



## turls

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Then taking my words back and will rework the chart, the issue in the chart is that it relates to True 4K signal not UHD signal, so you can pass 4k UHD @ 60 at 4:2:0 8 bit over 1.4 but not 4K 4096x2160 at 4:2:0 8 bit.


Maybe chart with 24p would be helpful also?


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 041616- FPGA in 041416 was giving bad results in some systems (flashing video, etc). Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Just to say that I'm successfully running the new Panasonic UHD player, via HDFury Integral, into the Lumagen Pro.
> 
> I currently have it set up for:
> 
> 2160p SDR/Rec709 YCbCr 4:4:2 12-bit.
> 
> for my projector, but it is of course possible to send 2020/HDR through the Fury too.
> 
> Anyway, the Panny player/HDFury combo is a happy one with the Pro.


Mark, just out of interest how come you are using the HD Fury into the Lumagen, rather than running the Panny direct?

I got my Panny player yesterday but only had a quick hour to get it hooked up and a quick test. I get a 4K image on screen, but I've not had chance to check what other picture stats are passing through. I have a HD Fury in standby if I need to use it.


----------



## Wookii

Just for clarification, am I right in thinking that the Pro can't accept a HDR input. But how about Rec2020/WCG, can it currently accept this on the input and output yet?


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> Just for clarification, am I right in thinking that the Pro can't accept a HDR input. But how about Rec2020/WCG, can it currently accept this on the input and output yet?


The Pro will accept BT2020 and HDR as soon as it's implemented in the f/w. For now, neither are supported. Jim has confirmed they are working on it, so a f/w update is expected any time over the next few weeks.
It will be implemented both on the current hardware (10.2Gb/s HDMI daughter boards) and with the optional 18Gb/s HDMI in/out daughterboards which Jim has indicated should be available by the end of Q2.

Once HDR and BT2020 are accepted, the Radiance Pro will meet the HDMI 2.0a specs with HDMI 2.0 Level B bandwidth on the current hardware, and with the optional daughterboards HDMI 2.0 Level A.


----------



## Wookii

Manni01 said:


> The Pro will accept BT2020 and HDR as soon as it's implemented in the f/w. For now, neither are supported. Jim has confirmed they are working on it, so a f/w update is expected any time over the next few weeks.
> It will be implemented both on the current hardware (10.2Gb/s HDMI daughter boards) and with the optional 18Gb/s HDMI in/out daughterboards which Jim has indicated should be available by the end of Q2.
> 
> Once HDR and BT2020 are accepted, the Radiance Pro will meet the HDMI 2.0a specs with HDMI 2.0 Level B bandwidth, and with the optional daughterboards HDMI 2.0 Level A.


Thanks Manni, so it can't currently take a Rec2020, Non-HDR signal?


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> Thanks Manni, so it can't currently take a Rec2020, Non-HDR signal?



I had edited my post for clarification in the meantime, no it can't.


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> Mark, just out of interest how come you are using the HD Fury into the Lumagen, rather than running the Panny direct?
> 
> I got my Panny player yesterday but only had a quick hour to get it hooked up and a quick test. I get a 4K image on screen, but I've not had chance to check what other picture stats are passing through. I have a HD Fury in standby if I need to use it.


Yeah, good question. I have the Sony vw1000 so I need the HDFury somewhere, either before or after. I don't want it after, at the moment, as I want the Lumagen to have a clear run at the projector, so I'm just using the HDFury on the source side. Maybe I should just stick it on the outward side and be done...


----------



## [email protected]

I have been trying to catch up on this thread but looking into getting the PRO for processing. Appears to be pretty future proof for most technology being talked about for the next year or so. I havent seen anything about the different types of HDR. HD10 and dolby HDR. Very few TV except Dolby now and minimal material available but should expand. Can or will the lumagen PRO be able to work with both types of HDR. I have read the Dolby HDR needs licensing and hardware support so that is why most companies are not including it yet, is this going to be a problem for Lumagen, hoping not to have worry about inferior Hardware to quickly but am willing to do partial updates like the new boards as they come out.

Thanks for the help and also, where or whom should I contact to purchse best. Live in Tampa, Florida for reference. 

thanks again, Rob


----------



## Chris5

I think I read earlier on that it will do both HDR formats


----------



## jrp

We have plans to support HDR10, and are working on both Rec 2020 and HDR10.

For Dolby Vision, we are in a wait and see mode. Once we get the HDR10 and Rec 2020 implemented we plan to contact Dolby and see what is involved both as to cost to license, and the cost in logic gates in the Radiance Pro FPGA. If everything makes sense we will certainly consider adding Dolby Vision.


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> Just for clarification, am I right in thinking that the Pro can't accept a HDR input. But how about Rec2020/WCG, can it currently accept this on the input and output yet?


A clarification to other posts:

The Radiance Pro does not currently implement the Rec 2020 EDID or decode the HDMI Rec 2020 Info-frame. However, you can already have a Rec 2020 calibration in a CMS memory. Then if you can get the source to output Rec 2020 without seeing Rec 2020 in the EDID (i.e. some kind of "force Rec 2020 output mode," similar to a Bluray forcing output as 3D without 3D in the downstream EDID), then you can in fact have a Rec 2020 calibration already.

We had some schedule setbacks (not related to Rec 2020) that kept us from getting Rec 2020 into the software, but we believe these have been overcome and we are working on Rec 2020 EDID, Info-frame, and how that affects the selection and use of CMS 3D LUT memories. Once we have the Rec 2020 complete we will move on to implementing HDR10.


----------



## mry110

Jim,
Awesome stuff, can wait to get mine! So current UHD Blurays are said to be coded in Rec2020, but the colors are actually a fraction (75%?) of 2020. I think the Sony 1100ES has the color capability to hit all of the colors on the UHD disks, but how would the calibration work? I bet you guys get a ton of orders from 1100ES owners!

- Matt


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mry110 said:


> Jim,
> Awesome stuff, can wait to get mine! So current UHD Blurays are said to be coded in Rec2020, but the colors are actually a fraction (75%?) of 2020. I think the Sony 1100ES has the color capability to hit all of the colors on the UHD disks, but how would the calibration work? I bet you guys get a ton of orders from 1100ES owners!
> 
> - Matt


Matt,

That's a question for calibration tool providers rather than Jim. I'd suggest though that a calibration tool will know what colour a given r g b triplet should be displayed as for rec2020. It will then "see" how wrong your display is then attempt to alter the RGB values it (Radiance Pro) outputs to get to that target colour. This is exactly the same as if it were trying to calibrate for REC709.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> A clarification to other posts:
> 
> The Radiance Pro does not currently implement the Rec 2020 EDID or decode the HDMI Rec 2020 Info-frame. However, you can already have a Rec 2020 calibration in a CMS memory. Then if you can get the source to output Rec 2020 without seeing Rec 2020 in the EDID (i.e. some kind of "force Rec 2020 output mode," similar to a Bluray forcing output as 3D without 3D in the downstream EDID), then you can in fact have a Rec 2020 calibration already.
> 
> We had some schedule setbacks (not related to Rec 2020) that kept us from getting Rec 2020 into the software, but we believe these have been overcome and we are working on Rec 2020 EDID, Info-frame, and how that affects the selection and use of CMS 3D LUT memories. Once we have the Rec 2020 complete we will move on to implementing HDR10.


Many thanks for confirming Jim. Will you be releasing an intermediate update to provide the Rec2020 compatibility whilst you work on HDR10, or will the former be withheld until the latter is ready too?

In the meantime I will have to work out if I can force Rec2020 out of the Panny player.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

mry110 said:


> Jim,
> Awesome stuff, can wait to get mine! So current UHD Blurays are said to be coded in Rec2020, but the colors are actually a fraction (75%?) of 2020. I think the Sony 1100ES has the color capability to hit all of the colors on the UHD disks, but how would the calibration work? I bet you guys get a ton of orders from 1100ES owners!
> 
> - Matt


Colors fraction purely depends on your display or projector, so it is not necessarily 75% of full Rec. 2020 Gamut it will depend. Calibration will depend on the tool you are using to calibrate, as already Gordon has replied, at the moment ChromaPure supports Rec.2020 calibration, so its just another calibration run as for Rec. 709 but will need to be saved separately on your display or projector. I haven't tried calibrating mine yet as still expecting my Radiance Pro 4444 to be delivered next week, but will definitely start doing and can provide calibration reports, I'm pretty sure it will be tricky and no so straight forward as because of this fraction of Rec. 2020 gamut.


----------



## Wookii

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Colors fraction purely depends on your display or projector, so it is not necessarily 75% of full Rec. 2020 Gamut it will depend. Calibration will depend on the tool you are using to calibrate, as already Gordon has replied, at the moment ChromaPure supports Rec.2020 calibration, so its just another calibration run as for Rec. 709 but will need to be saved separately on your display or projector. I haven't tried calibrating mine yet as still expecting my Radiance Pro 4444 to be delivered next week, but will definitely start doing and can provide calibration reports, I'm pretty sure it will be tricky and no so straight forward as because of this fraction of Rec. 2020 gamut.


I think he means that UHD movies are mastered using a DCI-P3 colour space, rather than Rec2020, and are simply supplied on UHD blu-ray disc in a Rec2020 container, but the P3 colour space on represents a proportion of the Rec2020 colour space.


----------



## stanger89

You still calibrate to Rec.2020, because that's what they player is sending.

It's like a black and white movie on Blu-ray, you don't calibrate specifically for black and white, you calibrate for Rec.709 because that's what the movie is stored as, regardless of if it only uses a tiny fraction of the available gamut.


----------



## mry110

Wookii said:


> I think he means that UHD movies are mastered using a DCI-P3 colour space, rather than Rec2020, and are simply supplied on UHD blu-ray disc in a Rec2020 container, but the P3 colour space on represents a proportion of the Rec2020 colour space.


Exactly what I was trying to ask. While it sounded like a calibration question, I'm more interested in how the Lumagen gets from Point A to Point B. What will I supply to the Lumagen a Rec2020 3D LUT with a slew of points my projector cant do, or a DCI-P3 3D LUT? I'll be the first one to admit I'm very new to this color gamut world, so if these are "face palm" questions, I apologize.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

You tell the calibration software to target mapping to rec2020.....How the calibration software deals with out of range points is up to the calibration software, not Lumagen. 

Hope that helps


----------



## Chris5

I guess the buck stops with the real world. The out of range points will just map to points on the edge of what the display can actually do. So if your device can fully do p3, then all 2020 points outside that will map (by the real world) to the edge of that p3/2020 boundery. The calibration report will just mark those points as under saturated, or with hue errors.


----------



## qualos

Mine arrived last week looking forward to seeing it in action. I never even got the 2144 out of the box


----------



## uderman

qualos said:


> Mine arrived last week looking forward to seeing it in action. I never even got the 2144 out of the box


2144 is a more complete product but the pro units have much higher potentials. I use both a 2144 and a 4449, they compliment each other very well.


----------



## qualos

uderman said:


> 2144 is a more complete product but the pro units have much higher potentials. I use both a 2144 and a 4449, they compliment each other very well.


I hadn't really considered using the 2144 also.


----------



## uderman

qualos said:


> I hadn't really considered using the 2144 also.


I currently have it as followed

Source -> 2144 -> Algolith Mosquito HDMI-> 4449

Sources: LD, VHS, D-VHS, DVD

2144: Deinterlaces, Geometry (Aspect Ratio, Masking), Scaling OFF

Mosquito HDMI: Analog noise reduction mode on LD and VHS, Mosquito mode on DVD and D-VHS

4449: Scaling, Calibration, All 2K and above sources connected to 4449 directly.


----------



## mskreis

uderman said:


> I currently have it as followed
> 
> 
> 
> Source -> 2144 -> Algolith Mosquito HDMI-> 4449
> 
> 
> 
> Sources: LD, VHS, D-VHS, DVD
> 
> 
> 
> 2144: Deinterlaces, Geometry (Aspect Ratio, Masking), Scaling OFF
> 
> 
> 
> Mosquito HDMI: Analog noise reduction mode on LD and VHS, Mosquito mode on DVD and D-VHS
> 
> 
> 
> 4449: Scaling, Calibration, All 2K and above sources connected to 4449 directly.



Interesting approach. I have a 2143 and was thinking about upgrading via trade-in. So, your 2144 is not actually connected to a display, only the 4449. Correct?


----------



## uderman

mskreis said:


> Interesting approach. I have a 2143 and was thinking about upgrading via trade-in. So, your 2144 is not actually connected to a display, only the 4449. Correct?



2143 may not be worth holding onto. 2144 has analog inputs which pro units lack. Adding a dedicated noise reduction unit(Algolith Mosquito HDMI), I get my analog sources (VHS and LD) perfectly de-interlaced (via Gennum VXP in 2144) and cleaned from analog noise (via Algolith). All 4449 does, upscales the SD signal into 4K and calibrates.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> We have plans to support HDR10, and are working on both Rec 2020 and HDR10.
> 
> For Dolby Vision, we are in a wait and see mode. Once we get the HDR10 and Rec 2020 implemented we plan to contact Dolby and see what is involved both as to cost to license, and the cost in logic gates in the Radiance Pro FPGA. If everything makes sense we will certainly consider adding Dolby Vision.


You may be aware of this already Jim, but just in case you are not:

Universal Pictures HE Unveils First Ultra HD Blu-ray Offerings



> UPHE will begin a progressive rollout of its growing roster of movie titles around the world beginning this summer, showcasing a mix of new releases, including some of this year’s most-anticipated blockbusters The Huntsman: Winter’s War, Warcraft and Jason Bourne as well as recent hits, such as Everest, Lucy and Lone Survivor, among others. Other 4K Ultra HD offerings in the pipeline will include a selection of IMAX spectacular cinematic films.
> 
> With more than 100 titles across the industry expected to be available on store shelves to consumers by the end of 2016. . . .
> 
> . . . . UPHE will deliver an enhanced selection of its new release and catalog titles *mastered in Dolby Vision™*, the high-dynamic-range (HDR) format and playback solution which brings out ultra-vivid colors and more hues across a full range of brightness.


Not that there are currently any players that support it as yet, but . . .


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Gordon Fraser said:


> You tell the calibration software to target mapping to rec2020.....How the calibration software deals with out of range points is up to the calibration software, not Lumagen.
> 
> Hope that helps


I think what Gordon relies here is on calibration purely. As Lumagen will support mapping of Rec. 2020 content to Rec. 709 for those displays that do not support Rec. 2020, in that case you calibrate your display to Rec 709 only and switch mapping via Lumagen. It can also be achieved if using HTPC source via madVR it does the mapping as well.

As for UHD movies being mastered in DCI-P3 (as currently used in Theaters) its question of time, pretty sure they will be releasing new UHD content mastered via Rec.2020 color space gamut. If you concern about calibrating the device, you should consider which software you'll be using, what colormeter and whether you'll be calibrating 17x17x17 3D lut or 5x5x5, or manual calibration. 
In that particular case, for instance using ChromaPure with i1d3 meter I would do the following.
1. Set the best settings recommended by your display in order to display Rec. 2020 content, for JVC they have released updated settings.
2. Connect Lumagen to ChromaPure as Test Pattern Generated, in Color reference of ChromaPure select Rec. 2020.
3. Implement all calibration the same way you implemented it for Rec. 709. 
4. Feed in Rec. 2020 source, currently available via Samsung and Panasonic 4k Players - and they will be connected directly to your display, as at the moment Lumagen doesn't support implementation of HDR meta data to be passed via HDMI. 
That's it enjoy the experience.
Whenever you want to watch usual Rec. 709 content - change your projector settings to calibrated settings for Rec. 709, or via Lumagen if calibrated using Lumagen CMS. You shouldn't be worried about anything else. 
In case your display doesn't support Rec. 2020, it makes your life easier and you just map the content from Rec. 2020 to Rec. 709, if it is Samsung and Panasonic players, you cannot map it via Lumagen, but I assume you can do that from the players itself (correct if I'm wrong I'm not 100% sure), if your source is HTPC and you play games or watch your own videos which were recordered in Rec. 2020 color space, use madVR renderer to do the mapping. 

I hope I've cleared your confusions and explained it more in details.


----------



## p5browne

Wookii said:


> You may be aware of this already Jim, but just in case you are not:
> 
> Universal Pictures HE Unveils First Ultra HD Blu-ray Offerings
> 
> 
> 
> Not that there are currently any players that support it as yet, but . . .



Glad I didn't fork out the big bucks for a player yet!


----------



## loggeo

Do we need different patterns to calibrate for Rec.2020 and st 2084 hdr? Can we use older lumagen models (for example 2143) as pattern generators?


----------



## stanger89

Shouldn't it's a matter of how the calibration software interprets the colors. For example, assuming 8 bit RGB (PC levels because it's easy) 100% Red is 255,0,0, it doesn't matter, from a pattern generator point of view, if that's Rec.709, P3 (not really a colorspace) or Rec.2020, it's the same. The Calibration software will send 100% Red, and will measure it, and the meter will report the x,y coordinates that the display produces for 100% red (255,0,0) input. It is at this point where the gamut maters, because the calibration software will have to know the target gamut, and how to deal with deviations. 

For example my JVC RS4910's autocal software will do a Rec.2020 calibration, you an enter custom RGB primaries and it will run through the calibration and generate a profile for it. I imagine (but haven't tried) that you could do the same with the older Lumagen's just like you can with the current Pro (so long as the calibration software allows it). However until the Pro is updated, it won't be able to report the EDID capabilities to sources, nor will it be able to read the AVI Info Frames from sources and automatically pick the right calibration.


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> You may be aware of this already Jim, but just in case you are not:
> 
> Universal Pictures HE Unveils First Ultra HD Blu-ray Offerings
> 
> Not that there are currently any players that support it as yet, but . . .


Unfortunately that was a false hope, Universal have confirmed to Dave Vaughn in the JVC thread that they are only doing what Sony and Warner have done, they support Dolby Vision in general and will use it for streaming but not on their UHD Bluray releases, at least not for now.

Not that it wouldn't be great if the Radiance Pro supported Dolby Vision, but with no player until the end of the year at the earliest and no disc content, it's not as if it was a huge priority.

BT2020 and HDR10 support, and then HDR10 calibration is much more important right now.


----------



## loggeo

stanger89 said:


> Shouldn't it's a matter of how the calibration software interprets the colors. For example, assuming 8 bit RGB (PC levels because it's easy) 100% Red is 255,0,0, it doesn't matter, from a pattern generator point of view, if that's Rec.709, P3 (not really a colorspace) or Rec.2020, it's the same. The Calibration software will send 100% Red, and will measure it, and the meter will report the x,y coordinates that the display produces for 100% red (255,0,0) input. It is at this point where the gamut maters, because the calibration software will have to know the target gamut, and how to deal with deviations.
> 
> For example my JVC RS4910's autocal software will do a Rec.2020 calibration, you an enter custom RGB primaries and it will run through the calibration and generate a profile for it. I imagine (but haven't tried) that you could do the same with the older Lumagen's just like you can with the current Pro (so long as the calibration software allows it). However until the Pro is updated, it won't be able to report the EDID capabilities to sources, nor will it be able to read the AVI Info Frames from sources and automatically pick the right calibration.


Pardon my ignorance but does this apply for hdr 10 too?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

loggeo said:


> Pardon my ignorance but does this apply for hdr 10 too?


HDR 10 is not a color space its is adopted format for UltraHD Blu Ray Discs, which uses Rec. 2020 Color Space Gamut.


----------



## loggeo

SoulOfUniverse said:


> HDR 10 is not a color space its is adopted format for UltraHD Blu Ray Discs, which uses Rec. 2020 Color Space Gamut.


Thank you for your answer. You are very helpful. I understand that hdr 10 and rec.2020 are two separate items , but perhaps I am not expressing myself well. Could be my English.
Hdr 10 should also need a gamma calibration (st2084 ) correct?
A workflow on calman 5.7 for example would walk me through. But what would really change when displaying the st2084 patterns? The forced signal (10bits)? Nothing?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

loggeo said:


> Thank you for your answer. You are very helpful. I understand that hdr 10 and rec.2020 are two separate items , but perhaps I am not expressing myself well. Could be my English.
> Hdr 10 should also need a gamma calibration (st2084 ) correct?
> A workflow on calman 5.7 for example would walk me through. But what would really change when displaying the st2084 patterns? The forced signal (10bits)? Nothing?


Depending on display/projector there are separate settings to set for gamma when viewing HDR10 content, yes you are correct gamma will change, so you have to calibrate your display with those settings enabled, for instance for JVC 2016 projectors, there are specific settings for HDR 10 content, where you have to set Gamma to D, and you'll have to do calibrations with those settings. http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/...0r_xc6890r_xc5890r_rs600_rs500_rs400_uhd.html I'll be doing all of this next week, when my Lumagen Pro arrives, I still don't have Samsung or Panasonic 4k player, as I play content from HTPC, I've tried demo HDR content and the only way I can view it is to map Rec. 2020 to Rec. 709 via madVR, as NVidia doesn't support HDR10 meta data to be enabled when outputting my signal from GPU to Projector. This will be resolved, when I'll place Lumagen in the chain, and Lumagen will passthrough HDR content with HDR flag enabled in HDMI (of course when firmware for Lumagen will be released), in that case Projector will receive HDR10 signal.


----------



## loggeo

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Depending on display/projector there are separate settings to set for gamma when viewing HDR10 content, yes you are correct gamma will change, so you have to calibrate your display with those settings enabled, for instance for JVC 2016 projectors, there are specific settings for HDR 10 content, where you have to set Gamma to D, and you'll have to do calibrations with those settings. http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/...0r_xc6890r_xc5890r_rs600_rs500_rs400_uhd.html I'll be doing all of this next week, when my Lumagen Pro arrives, I still don't have Samsung or Panasonic 4k player, as I play content from HTPC, I've tried demo HDR content and the only way I can view it is to map Rec. 2020 to Rec. 709 via madVR, as NVidia doesn't support HDR10 meta data to be enabled when outputting my signal from GPU to Projector. This will be resolved, when I'll place Lumagen in the chain, and Lumagen will passthrough HDR content with HDR flag enabled in HDMI (of course when firmware for Lumagen will be released), in that case Projector will receive HDR10 signal.


I am currently using a jvc rs500 too. Haven't purchased a UHD player yet. Would it be possible to use the Samsung or Panasonic UHD and force manually HDR flag patterns (until Lumagen pro is updated)?


----------



## stanger89

loggeo said:


> Pardon my ignorance but does this apply for hdr 10 too?


I believe it should as well.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> A clarification to other posts:
> 
> The Radiance Pro does not currently implement the Rec 2020 EDID or decode the HDMI Rec 2020 Info-frame. However, you can already have a Rec 2020 calibration in a CMS memory. Then if you can get the source to output Rec 2020 without seeing Rec 2020 in the EDID (i.e. some kind of "force Rec 2020 output mode," similar to a Bluray forcing output as 3D without 3D in the downstream EDID), then you can in fact have a Rec 2020 calibration already.
> 
> We had some schedule setbacks (not related to Rec 2020) that kept us from getting Rec 2020 into the software, but we believe these have been overcome and we are working on Rec 2020 EDID, Info-frame, and how that affects the selection and use of CMS 3D LUT memories. Once we have the Rec 2020 complete we will move on to implementing HDR10.


Further to Jim's post above, and whilst we wait for the HDR/Rec2020 firmware to be released, I am trying to utilise a HDFury Integral to get a valid WCG gamut signal from my Panny UB900 into the Radiance Pro.

The HDFury Integral is currently enabling me to get 4K SDR 4:4:2 BT.2020 12Bit out of the Panasonic player (i.e. WCG without HDR), and I have asked on the HDFury thread to see if the Integral can remove the BT2020 flag before the output.

Assuming it can be made to work, can anyone confirm if the Pro will accept a 4K SDR 4:4:2 12Bit signal or is the bit depth too high?


----------



## stanger89

Wookii said:


> The HDFury Integral is currently enabling me to get 4K SDR 4:4:2 BT.2020 12Bit out of the Panasonic player (i.e. WCG without HDR), and I have asked on the HDFury thread to see if the Integral can remove the BT2020 flag before the output.


You should ask Manni01 about that, he's got that working with his JVC X500. Or look for HDFury's response to him, I they both posted the AVI Infoframe string to do that.


----------



## Manni01

stanger89 said:


> You should ask Manni01 about that, he's got that working with his JVC X500. Or look for HDFury's response to him, I they both posted the AVI Infoframe string to do that.


Already replied to Wookii in the HDfury thread where he posted too


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> Further to Jim's post above, and whilst we wait for the HDR/Rec2020 firmware to be released, I am trying to utilise a HDFury Integral to get a valid WCG gamut signal from my Panny UB900 into the Radiance Pro.
> 
> The HDFury Integral is currently enabling me to get 4K SDR 4:4:2 BT.2020 12Bit out of the Panasonic player (i.e. WCG without HDR), and I have asked on the HDFury thread to see if the Integral can remove the BT2020 flag before the output.
> 
> Assuming it can be made to work, can anyone confirm if the Pro will accept a 4K SDR 4:4:2 12Bit signal or is the bit depth too high?


The pro will accept UHD SDR 4:2:2 12bits fine at 24p as it's well within the 10.2Gb/s limit of the current HDMI boards in the Radiance Pro.

It won't accept it at 50/60p, but as long as you set the player to 4:2:0 for 4K 50/60p in the settings, you'll be fine.

Other part answered in the Integral thread


----------



## stanger89

Seems like we need two integral threads, one for the general "I can't make it work." and another for advanced usage, custom EDIDs, etc. Oh well.


----------



## Wookii

Yeah, thanks guys,I feel like I'm running around in circles between these two threads lol



Manni01 said:


> The pro will accept UHD SDR 4:2:2 12bits fine at 24p as it's well within the 10.2Gb/s limit of the current HDMI boards in the Radiance Pro.
> 
> It won't accept it at 50/60p, but as long as you set the player to 4:2:0 for 4K 50/60p in the settings, you'll be fine.
> 
> Other part answered in the Integral thread


Thanks for confirming Manni, I'm only really bothered about film content at the moment, UHD SDR 4:2:2 12bits @ 24p is what I'll aim for and try to get working on the Pro.


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> Yeah, thanks guys,I feel like I'm running around in circles between these two threads lol
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for confirming Manni, I'm only really bothered about film content at the moment, UHD SDR 4:2:2 12bits @ 24p is what I'll aim for and try to get working on the Pro.


Still make sure you select the 4:2:0 option for 4K 50p/60p in the Panny when the Radiance is connected (you shouldn't be able to select 4:4:4 as the Panny should detect the 10.2Gb/s limitation of the Radiance) as it might help with the menus.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Wookii said:


> Assuming it can be made to work, can anyone confirm if the Pro will accept a 4K SDR 4:4:2 12Bit signal or is the bit depth too high?


 Just a type you making many times Wookii, not 4:4:2 sampling is either at 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or 4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 is available on YCbCr signal, RGB is always 4:4:4.


----------



## Mike_WI

@jrp et al. -

My Lumagen RadiancePro 4444 arrived and I installed last night.
I think many of my sources are 1080p with old HDMI cables.
Per Lumagen instructions I should use 6ft 4K (presumably 18 Gbps) HDMI cables.

I have a "Cabernet Ultra CL2 Active High Speed HDMI® Cable, 30ft" from Monoprice for the in wall/ceiling from Lumagen HDMI Out (Out4) to 1080p JVC RS20 projector.
[A @jrp rec]
The Lumagen Out1 is to Denon 5308CI AVR for audio.

Recommendations on six (or seven including Out1) 6 ft 4K HDMI cables?
Would these work?

*Black Squid - HDMI Cable (6 Feet) with Braided Cord (4K 2K 2160p 1080p 3D 18Gbps) - High Speed Category 2 - Ethernet & Audio Return Channel*


Thanks.

Mike


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Mike_WI said:


> Recommendations on six (or seven including Out1) 6 ft 4K HDMI cables?
> 
> Mike


I know those will work, tested it already - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002U3I1EW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I've used 3 meters, longer should work as well.


----------



## netroamer

Mike_WI said:


> @*jrp* et al. -
> 
> My Lumagen RadiancePro 4444 arrived and I installed last night.
> I think many of my sources are 1080p with old HDMI cables.
> Per Lumagen instructions I should use 6ft 4K (presumably 18 Gbps) HDMI cables.
> 
> I have a "Cabernet Ultra CL2 Active High Speed HDMI® Cable, 30ft" from Monoprice for the in wall/ceiling from Lumagen HDMI Out (Out4) to 1080p JVC RS20 projector.
> [A @*jrp* rec]
> The Lumagen Out1 is to Denon 5308CI AVR for audio.
> 
> Recommendations on six (or seven including Out1) 6 ft 4K HDMI cables?
> Would these work?
> 
> *Black Squid - HDMI Cable (6 Feet) with Braided Cord (4K 2K 2160p 1080p 3D 18Gbps) - High Speed Category 2 - Ethernet & Audio Return Channel*
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike


I like Jim Petersen, but there is no cable manufacturer that I have spoken too that accepts the 6ft minimum cable spec Jim touts. It creates a mess for cable management and I am successfully using lengths to the Pro from .5m to 1.0m. And, you certainly do not need a 600mhz cable for the audio output 1.

Any source that will forever be 1080p, cable boxes, blu-ray players etc. do not need 600mhz cables. When Lumagen finally issues a HDR firmware update and makes available 600mhz I/O upgrade boards you can then selectively add 600mhz cables to those inputs and outputs.


----------



## Mike_WI

Thank you @SoulOfUniverse & @netroamer !

I have a rack with wiring hidden.
Would rather have shorter runs, but the rats nest is hidden from view.
I'm also doing a panel front mount for USB (& adding HDMI input to INPUT6, Ethernet) to allow easier FW updates for Pro.

Mike


----------



## jrp

netroamer said:


> I like Jim Peterson, but there is no cable manufacturer that I have spoken too that accepts the 6ft minimum cable spec Jim touts. It creates a mess for cable management and I am successfully using lengths to the Pro from .5m to 1.0m. And, you certainly do not need a 600mhz cable for the audio output 1.


One of my favorite proofs in college math classes was disproving a conjecture by counter example. I have literally hundreds of counter examples to less then 6 foot passive HDMI cable working well in all cases. I have many examples of dealers calling with issues with short cables, some with and some without a Radiance in the path. I get the dealer to switch from a 3 foot to a 6 foot passive and the system goes from flaky to solid. Generally the dealer will use same brand and model of cable but 6 foot instead of 1 or 3 feet. This has happened hundreds of times in the past 6 or 8 years.

Now of course short passive HDMI cables can work, but it actually depends more on the input design of the receiving device than on the cables and I think this is what the cable manufacturers are ignoring. They evaluate the cable and not the real world effect of poor HDMI input design. There is cable Pre-EQ in the drivers, and cable post EQ in the Receivers since HDMI 1.1. Short cable are great at delivering the pre-biased signal to the receiver without the attenuation associated with longer cables. Then any kind of discontinuity in the receiver (e.g. HDMI plug, HDMI jack, transition from HDMI jack finger width to 100 ohm differential trace width, etc.) create reflections that are amplified because of the pre-biased signal not having been attenuated by the cable. These reflections make it hard for the receiver chip to lock on to the signal.

If the HDMI transmitters and receivers have dynamic EQ that varies based on the cable length (like what HD-SDI uses), this would not be an issue. However, all the the standard HDMI chips I am aware of have static EQ which has to be dialed in for a specific length. I estimate (no company specifies this so an estimate is the best one can do) that this is in the 15 to 20 foot range to allow 6 to 30 foot lengths to work reliably. Note that this puts 3 feet likely below the short end of the range. 

Of course many people use shorter cables successfully. Its just that there are a lot of devices with a poor HDMI input designs and they are the ones most at risk with short passive cables. For enthusiasts who are willing to watch for issues and change cables if needed this is not a big issue. However, for dealers who must insure everything "just works" a 6 foot HDMI cable (when using a passive HDMI cable) is a much better bet.

====

The good news now for those who want short HDMI cables is that an active cable, such as Redmere, can work well at even one foot. The reason is the active buffer at the receiving end is before the "poor input design." That is the buffer is tuned to the cable length and is before the plug/jack that can cause issues at the downstream device. In addition the active cable buffer designer knows that the buffer has to only drive the plug/jack and a few inches of PCB trace and so can tune the buffer outputs to minimize issues with poor HDMI input designs.

The only downside to using a short active cable is that not all HDMI devices have the "Standby" output power to drive them since they are technically outside the HDMI requirement for Standby power. If your source has the HDMI Standby output power and you want a short HDMI cable, then an active cable is what I recommend.

==== 

You can believe me or not. I would like to point out that I have over 35 years experience working with high speed transmission lines on PCBs and in cables. So, I believe I have a solid foundation to speak on the issue with short cables verses static EQ in HDMI. I even saw that about a year after I started telling people about the issues with HDMI 1.1 and later cable EQ and short cables that the HDMI organization did come out with a statement saying the same thing. Even if I didn't have this background, I would still have the hundreds of examples of lengthening passive HDMI cables from 3 feet to 6 feet resolving reliability issues to point at.


----------



## p5browne

I concur - just about every issue was related with 3' cables, and disappeared with the 6'. Of course some disappeared due to a bad cable being swapped out as well!


----------



## netroamer

jrp said:


> The only downside to using a short active cable is that not all HDMI devices have the "Standby" output power to drive them since they are technically outside the HDMI requirement for Standby power. If your source has the HDMI Standby output power and you want a short HDMI cable, then an active cable is what I recommend.


Would One assume that a simple test of source "Standby" output power would be to attempt a EDID read of the source in the "Standby" mode?


----------



## AidenL

Im thinking about investing in a Lumen Pro here. Talking to Gordon on options at the moment. 

Just curious about current owners, wondering where do you users find the biggest benefit from it - watching what sources and how does it better your viewing experience?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## sillysally

Right now there is no benefit for my rig.
But then again I brought the Pro 4444 because Jim says that the 3DLUT feature will be supported by the Lumagen Pro for full UHD features.

Right now the Pro is still very much in beta stage.

ss


----------



## Mike_WI

AidenL said:


> Im thinking about investing in a Lumen Pro here. Talking to Gordon on options at the moment.
> 
> Just curious about current owners, wondering where do you users find the biggest benefit from it - watching what sources and how does it better your viewing experience?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I replaced a broken XE to "future proof" for 4K.
The XE had many legacy input which was nice, but I figured it was time to move to 4K capable.
I am not yet calibrated and don't have a 4K source or display so can't comment on those aspects the Pro series bring.

Mike


----------



## Mark_H

AidenL said:


> Just curious about current owners, wondering where do you users find the biggest benefit from it - watching what sources and how does it better your viewing experience?


The pristine video scaling, the 17^3 LUT, rate match, genlock and the built-in Darbee are the bigger draws for me at the moment. Which, along with the rest of the core elements, make Lumagen THE key element of my video chain...


----------



## AidenL

Mark_H said:


> The pristine video scaling, the 17^3 LUT, rate match, genlock and the built-in Darbee are the bigger draws for me at the moment. Which, along with the rest of the core elements, make Lumagen THE key element of my video chain...


Thanks for that - whats genlock though?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Genlock (generator locking)*



AidenL said:


> Thanks for that - whats genlock though?





> Genlock (generator locking) is a common technique where the video output of one source, or a specific reference signal from a signal generator, is used to synchronize other television picture sources together. The aim in video applications is to ensure the coincidence of signals in time at a combining or switching point. When video instruments are synchronized in this way, they are said to be generator-locked, or genlocked


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genlock


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

AidenL said:


> Thanks for that - whats genlock though?


Genlock is used to provide a constant video delay from input to output, and to avoid an occasional dropped or repeated frame. Unlike older Radiance models Genlock in the Radiance Pro is designed to not increase switching delays much. So it can be on for Settop boxes and not significantly increase channel change time. 

Another advantage of the Radiance Pro Genlock is that the input to output video delay is the same within a few milliseconds independent of the input and output mode. For example, with Genlock on the input to output delay for 1080i in to 4k60 out is almost the same as for 24p in to 24p out. 

By default Genlock is off. Genlock can be set to off for all input rates, on for only 24p and 25p input rates, or on for all input rates. The command is: 

MENU → Input → Options →Genlock


----------



## Steve_T

Am I right in thinking a 4240 would be best just before my display Sony 520 PJ with inputs from the Marantz 7010 Reciever?

Sources are a Panny UB900 4K, Sat 1080i, Sat 4k, HTPC and Pioneer 450 BD player into the Marantz.

Any other recommendations to get the best picture?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Steve_T said:


> Am I right in thinking a 4240 would be best just before my display Sony 520 PJ with inputs from the Marantz 7010 Reciever?
> 
> Sources are a Panny UB900 4K, Sat 1080i, Sat 4k, HTPC and Pioneer 450 BD player into the Marantz.
> 
> Any other recommendations to get the best picture?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Yes you can use the Marantz as the switcher then stick output of that to the 4240 and onwards to the 520...no problem.


----------



## sjschaff

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Genlock is used to provide a constant video delay from input to output, and to avoid an occasional dropped or repeated frame. Unlike older Radiance models Genlock in the Radiance Pro is designed to not increase switching delays much. So it can be on for Settop boxes and not significantly increase channel change time.
> 
> Another advantage of the Radiance Pro Genlock is that the input to output video delay is the same within a few milliseconds independent of the input and output mode. For example, with Genlock on the input to output delay for 1080i in to 4k60 out is almost the same as for 24p in to 24p out.
> 
> By default Genlock is off. Genlock can be set to off for all input rates, on for only 24p and 25p input rates, or on for all input rates. The command is:
> 
> MENU → Input → Options →Genlock


Interesting. When I set genlock ON for all input rates for my Tivo source I get flickering on the projector. The Tivo appears as 1080i and the Lumagen converts to 1080p. If I set it to on for only 24p and 25p or set it OFF, I have no flickering. Not clear why this might happen. Any ideas?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

sjschaff said:


> Interesting. When I set genlock ON for all input rates for my Tivo source I get flickering on the projector. The Tivo appears as 1080i and the Lumagen converts to 1080p. If I set it to on for only 24p and 25p or set it OFF, I have no flickering. Not clear why this might happen. Any ideas?



That is a question for Lumagen. Email support to let them know what you are seeing so they can investigate. Make sure to tell them source and display makes


----------



## sjschaff

Gordon Fraser said:


> That is a question for Lumagen. Email support to let them know what you are seeing so they can investigate. Make sure to tell them source and display makes


Will do so as I gather nobody on the forum really has any handle on what this function's all about, and how it's supposed to behave, other than pointing to some docs.


----------



## Mark_H

Genlock is used to keep the Lumagen locked to the source clock so that there is no "drift" between the two devices, which could lead to intermittent dropped frames. Only works for same/multiples of the source rate, eg 24fps->24fps, but not 50->60.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

So just tested quickly my Lumagen Pro 4444, all seems fine, apart from it only accepts either 4:2:0 8bit 60hz and quality of the pixels is a bit chopped off, so had to switch to 4:4:4 8bit 60hz - as it makes quality better. Strange enough it cannot give option to feed 10 bit at 4:2:0 however when connected directly to PJ it gives that option, I believe it will be resolved when 18 Ghz chips will be supplied. A lot menus are still locked in 4k mode.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi Jim,

Found the bug in Pro 4444. When feeding 4k signal or 1080p signal RGB it doesn't allow you to change HDMI Type (PC/Level) says menu is not ready yet, and HDMI Input cannot be changed as well it sets Auto (RGB). 
Also Dither menu is the same locked on HDMI Output -> Styles -> Dither.

As already mentioned it supports only 4:2:0 [email protected] 8 bit, but it loss some information as reading text now becomes impossible. It doesn't give me option for 10 bit signal, when connected directly from HTPC to Projector it gives me these options.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Found the bug in Pro 4444. When feeding 4k signal or 1080p signal RGB it doesn't allow you to change HDMI Type (PC/Level) says menu is not ready yet, and HDMI Input cannot be changed as well it sets Auto (RGB).
> Also Dither menu is the same locked on HDMI Output -> Styles -> Dither.
> 
> As already mentioned it supports only 4:2:0 [email protected] 8 bit, but it loss some information as reading text now becomes impossible. It doesn't give me option for 10 bit signal, when connected directly from HTPC to Projector it gives me these options.


Firmware is still beta....they are adding features in priority according to what folk have asked for and how much time they will take to implement. The best thing to do is not post bugs you've found or features you want, here, but instead email lumagen support direct. Lumagen support do not read this forum looking for bug information. Thanks for the feedback though.


----------



## Steve_T

Why can the 4240 not do pip/pop?
Surely it has the horsepower no or has it been disabled to make the higher cost models look more attractive?

Would be good to make it available in a future software update


----------



## jamesmil

Jim has said previously that PIP will come later in the beta cycle.


----------



## kaotikr1

jamesmil said:


> Jim has said previously that PIP will come later in the beta cycle.


Only on the 444X series will PIP come later.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Steve_T said:


> Why can the 4240 not do pip/pop?
> Surely it has the horsepower no or has it been disabled to make the higher cost models look more attractive?
> 
> Would be good to make it available in a future software update


It is not available as it has different hardware switching internally although it shares the same FPGA and i.o modules. Losing the PIP/POP hardware makes it more affordable to manufacture and more affordable to purchase...it is not software crippled in any way. If anyone needs to wants PIP or POP they need to buy a 444X unit.
http://www.avsforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## jamesmil

Hey Jim, any progress report on how the rec.2020 and HDR support is coming along?


----------



## thrang

jamesmil said:


> Hey Jim, any progress report on how the rec.2020 and HDR support is coming along?


Yes, curious on this, PIP, and the upgraded HDMI boards. 

Not all at once, mind you...but just curious...


----------



## jrp

jamesmil said:


> Hey Jim, any progress report on how the rec.2020 and HDR support is coming along?


The Rec 2020 portion of the software update is almost ready to go. We choose to tackle Rec 2020 (only) first and then once it is complete tackle HDR (which is a rather large can of worms). I believe we should have a Rec 2020 release within the next week, and possibly even late this week.

We are told the Panasonic UHD player can output Rec 2020 without HDR on. So those with the Panasonic (Europe only and those who bought from Europe) should be able to test with Rec 2020 soon.

Note we still need to get the release tot eh calibration software companies and work with them on adding support to their software for the new Rec 2020 CMS mode.

===

As mentioned you will be able report Rec 2020 back to a source and then calibrate a "Non Rec 2020" reporting TV/projector to maximize it's Gamut (using its wide open Gamut mode) and so gain the larger UHD "Rec 2020" color space (mostly P3 color space movies) without having to buy a "Rec 2020 enabled" TV/projector.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> The Rec 2020 portion of the software update is almost ready to go. We choose to tackle Rec 2020 (only) first and then once it is complete tackle HDR (which is a rather large can of worms). I believe we should have a Rec 2020 release within the next week, and possibly even late this week.
> 
> We are told the Panasonic UHD player can output Rec 2020 without HDR on. So those with the Panasonic (Europe only and those who bought from Europe) should be able to test with Rec 2020 soon.
> 
> Note we still need to get the release tot eh calibration software companies and work with them on adding support to their software for the new Rec 2020 CMS mode.
> 
> ===
> 
> As mentioned you will be able report Rec 2020 back to a source and then calibrate a "Non Rec 2020" reporting TV/projector to maximize it's Gamut (using its wide open Gamut mode) and so gain the larger UHD "Rec 2020" color space (mostly P3 color space movies) without having to buy a "Rec 2020 enabled" TV/projector.


Hi Jim,

Great news, thanks for the update.

The Panasonic can convert HDR to SDR when set to HDR Auto, but only outputs BT2020 if the display doesn't support HDR and supports BT2020.

Otherwise, if the display supports HDR and you set HDR to off to force SDR, it outputs SDR Rec-709.

For a display that supports HDR, you need to either switch HDR off in the display if possible, or you need to use way to report in the EDID that the display doesn't support HDR but supports BT2020. Then and only then, if the HDR is set to auto in the Panny, will the Panny output SDR BT2020 to an HDR display.

Maybe the Radiance can do this EDID trickery (report to the source that the display doesn't support HDR when it does), otherwise it's only SDR rec-709 I'm afraid.


----------



## jrp

We will have independent modes for HDR and Rec 2020. They are effectively:

Auto: The capability of the TV/projector is passed back to source in the EDID
Yes: Enable (HDR or Rec 2020) in EDID back to source even if not reported by TV/projector
No: Do not report feature (HDR or Rec 2020) back to source in EDID


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> Yes: Enable (HDR or Rec 2020) in EDID back to source even if not reported by TV/projector


Just to clarify Jim, when you say "HDR *OR* Rec2020", will this option allow the user to selectively choose to enable HDR and Rec2020 independently. I.E such that it can be set to HDR=Disabled + Rec2020 = Enabled (or visa versa)?

If so this is great, as this is what will be required to get SDR + Rec2020 out of the Panasonic player, as Manni describes above.

If this isn't the case, and this option just forces both HDR and Rec2020 to enabled at the same time, none of the options would appear to allow us to get SDR + Rec2020 out of the Panny?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Wookii said:


> Just to clarify Jim, when you say "HDR *OR* Rec2020", will this option allow the user to selectively choose to enable HDR and Rec2020 independently. I.E such that it can be set to HDR=Disabled + Rec2020 = Enabled (or visa versa)?
> 
> If so this is great, as this is what will be required to get SDR + Rec2020 out of the Panasonic player, as Manni describes above.
> 
> If this isn't the case, and this option just forces both HDR and Rec2020 to enabled at the same time, none of the options would appear to allow us to get SDR + Rec2020 out of the Panny?


It is my understanding they will each be separate so we can force 2020 and SDR. Having said that, I'd expect if you had a Radiance Pro you'd want to send it HDR and REC2020 and let it do the downconversion to SDR in a LUT specific to your display.


----------



## Wookii

Gordon Fraser said:


> It is my understanding they will each be separate so we can force 2020 and SDR. *Having said that, I'd expect if you had a Radiance Pro you'd want to send it HDR and REC2020 and let it do the downconversion to SDR in a LUT specific to your display.*


Absolutely Gordon, will that be possible with the Rec 2020 release then? I was kind of assuming (probably incorrectly) we would have to wait for the HDR implementation on the Radiance Pro before it would be able to properly remap HDR to SDR?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Wookii said:


> Absolutely Gordon, will that be possible with the Rec 2020 release then? I was kind of assuming (probably incorrectly) we would have to wait for the HDR implementation on the Radiance Pro before it would be able to properly remap HDR to SDR?


You can create a LUT right now that would do HDR to SDR conversion usnig Lightspace but the issue is getting a UHD player to output HDR to the scaler. That wont happen unless you can FORCE HDR from the player or they have HDR in the edid of the scaler. So you are right that currently you'd need an HD FURY to spoof the edid between scaler and UHD source.


----------



## jrp

Wookii:

As I mentioned in my last post they are independent which means you can choose to enable/disable one or both. So, for example, you will be able to have Rec 2020 as Yes, and HDR as No.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> Wookii:
> 
> As I mentioned in my last post they are independent which means you can choose to enable/disable one or both. So, for example, you will be able to have Rec 2020 as Yes, and HDR as No.


Thanks Jim, that's awesome!


----------



## SJHT

I'm looking to jump into UHD later this year but we watched Deadpool. 1080P output from my Oppo 105, upscaled to 4K by the Lumagen Pro and fed into my JVC RS600. Picture was just breathtaking. I struggle to see how this can be improved but I bought the 4K Deadpool version just in case as it came with the standard Bluray. I think the fact that the Atmos soundtrack is only on some 4K discs might also push me to get a UHD player. SJ


----------



## jrp

*Radiance Pro Rec 2020 released*

We have posted the initial release for the Radiance Pro that includes Rec 2020. This works with the Panasonic UB900 UHD player (disable HDR output). Let us know if you find issues at [email protected].

===== 

Beta 051216- Adds Rec2020 colorspace support (tested and working with UHD Panasonic UB900 blu-ray player). After updating, if you wish to permit Rec2020 video to the Pro then in the menu under Global: Video: Src Format modify the Rec2020 setting from "No" to "Auto" or "Yes". The "Auto" setting will permit Rec2020 from sources connected to the Pro if the display on output 4 (or 2 for 42XX) of the Pro is connected to a Rec2020 capable display. The Output Setup menu allows specifying different CMS's now for Rec2020 or Rec601/709 sources. A new CMS labeled "Default" is initially used for Rec2020 sources after updating to this firmware. If calibration and adjustment for Rec2020 is to be done then the CMS must be changed from "Default" to another CMS in the Output: Output Setup menu. Each CMS can have it's output colorspace specified in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMS: Colorspace (defaults to "Auto" which uses the colorspace detected from the source). The label command for CMS's and Style's is now working. The information screen now shows more complete video format information, .ie 422-SDR2020 for 4:2:2 with SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) and Rec2020. Bugfix for output bottom mask not functioning independently from top mask. Input color precision improvement for 422 input. Bugfix for several cases of no output video.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> We have posted the initial release for the Radiance Pro that includes Rec 2020. This works with the Panasonic UB900 UHD player (disable HDR output). Let us know if you find issues at [email protected].
> 
> =====
> 
> Beta 051216- Adds Rec2020 colorspace support (tested and working with UHD Panasonic UB900 blu-ray player). After updating, if you wish to permit Rec2020 video to the Pro then in the menu under Global: Video: Src Format modify the Rec2020 setting from "No" to "Auto" or "Yes". The "Auto" setting will permit Rec2020 from sources connected to the Pro if the display on output 4 (or 2 for 42XX) of the Pro is connected to a Rec2020 capable display. The Output Setup menu allows specifying different CMS's now for Rec2020 or Rec601/709 sources. A new CMS labeled "Default" is initially used for Rec2020 sources after updating to this firmware. If calibration and adjustment for Rec2020 is to be done then the CMS must be changed from "Default" to another CMS in the Output: Output Setup menu. Each CMS can have it's output colorspace specified in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMS: Colorspace (defaults to "Auto" which uses the colorspace detected from the source). The label command for CMS's and Style's is now working. The information screen now shows more complete video format information, .ie 422-SDR2020 for 4:2:2 with SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) and Rec2020. Bugfix for output bottom mask not functioning independently from top mask. Input color precision improvement for 422 input. Bugfix for several cases of no output video.


Hi Jim,

This is great news 

Question: how do you get BT2020 out of the UB900 if you disable HDR in the player? As discussed, HDR needs to be set to AUTO for the Panny to send BT2020. If HDR is set to OFF, it sends SDR Rec-709, at least in my experience, even if the display supports BT2020 (and if the display EDID reports so).

However, with the HDR setting on AUTO, if the display reports BT2020 support and no HDR support, the panny sends SDR BT2020.


----------



## p5browne

jrp said:


> We have posted the initial release for the Radiance Pro that includes Rec 2020. This works with the Panasonic UB900 UHD player (disable HDR output). Let us know if you find issues at [email protected].
> 
> =====
> 
> Beta 051216- Adds Rec2020 colorspace support (tested and working with UHD Panasonic UB900 blu-ray player). After updating, if you wish to permit Rec2020 video to the Pro then in the menu under Global: Video: Src Format modify the Rec2020 setting from "No" to "Auto" or "Yes". The "Auto" setting will permit Rec2020 from sources connected to the Pro if the display on output 4 (or 2 for 42XX) of the Pro is connected to a Rec2020 capable display. The Output Setup menu allows specifying different CMS's now for Rec2020 or Rec601/709 sources. A new CMS labeled "Default" is initially used for Rec2020 sources after updating to this firmware. If calibration and adjustment for Rec2020 is to be done then the CMS must be changed from "Default" to another CMS in the Output: Output Setup menu. Each CMS can have it's output colorspace specified in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMS: Colorspace (defaults to "Auto" which uses the colorspace detected from the source). The label command for CMS's and Style's is now working. The information screen now shows more complete video format information, .ie 422-SDR2020 for 4:2:2 with SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) and Rec2020. Bugfix for output bottom mask not functioning independently from top mask. Input color precision improvement for 422 input. Bugfix for several cases of no output video.


http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## Wookii

Manni01 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> This is great news
> 
> Question: how do you get BT2020 out of the UB900 if you disable HDR in the player? As discussed, HDR needs to be set to AUTO for the Panny to send BT2020. If HDR is set to OFF, it sends SDR Rec-709, at least in my experience, even if the display supports BT2020 (and if the display EDID reports so).
> 
> However, with the HDR setting on AUTO, if the display reports BT2020 support and no HDR support, the panny sends SDR BT2020.


Manni, are you saying you've tested the update and it doesn't work to get SDR Rec2020 out of the Panny?


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> Manni, are you saying you've tested the update and it doesn't work to get SDR Rec2020 out of the Panny?


 

No, I would just like to know how Jim manages to get BT2020 when HDR is set to off on the UB900, because I never managed to get this. But maybe I'm misreading his instructions.


I don't have Radiance Pro yet by the way, so it might work with the Radiance.


----------



## Wookii

Manni01 said:


> No, I would just like to know how Jim manages to get BT2020 when HDR is set to off on the UB900, because I never managed to get this. But maybe I'm misreading his instructions.
> 
> 
> I don't have Radiance Pro yet by the way, so it might work with the Radiance.


Oh I didn't realise sorry, I thought you had the Pro. I'll upload the firmware and test tonight anyway, I just wondered if anyone had got it working with the Panny.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Bugfix for several cases of no output video.*



jrp said:


> We have posted the initial release for the Radiance Pro that includes Rec 2020. This works with the Panasonic UB900 UHD player (disable HDR output). Let us know if you find issues at [email protected].
> 
> =====
> 
> Beta 051216- Adds Rec2020 colorspace support (tested and working with UHD Panasonic UB900 blu-ray player). After updating, if you wish to permit Rec2020 video to the Pro then in the menu under Global: Video: Src Format modify the Rec2020 setting from "No" to "Auto" or "Yes". The "Auto" setting will permit Rec2020 from sources connected to the Pro if the display on output 4 (or 2 for 42XX) of the Pro is connected to a Rec2020 capable display. The Output Setup menu allows specifying different CMS's now for Rec2020 or Rec601/709 sources. A new CMS labeled "Default" is initially used for Rec2020 sources after updating to this firmware. If calibration and adjustment for Rec2020 is to be done then the CMS must be changed from "Default" to another CMS in the Output: Output Setup menu. Each CMS can have it's output colorspace specified in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMS: Colorspace (defaults to "Auto" which uses the colorspace detected from the source). The label command for CMS's and Style's is now working. The information screen now shows more complete video format information, .ie 422-SDR2020 for 4:2:2 with SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) and Rec2020. Bugfix for output bottom mask not functioning independently from top mask. Input color precision improvement for 422 input.* Bugfix for several cases of no output video.*


I don't have a UHD player yet, but have noticed some video output bugs, so will be interested to download this.

Mike


----------



## mry110

Mike_WI said:


> I don't have a UHD player yet, but have noticed some video output bugs, so will be interested to download this.
> 
> Mike


I'm having fits with mine. Keep getting green screens and now blank screens. Hope I can get this firmware to fix things.


----------



## mry110

Does the new firmware send the proper EDID for 2020? I'm asking because I have a Samsung UHD player.


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> We have posted the initial release for the Radiance Pro that includes Rec 2020. This works with the Panasonic UB900 UHD player (disable HDR output). Let us know if you find issues at [email protected].
> 
> =====
> 
> Beta 051216- Adds Rec2020 colorspace support (tested and working with UHD Panasonic UB900 blu-ray player). After updating, if you wish to permit Rec2020 video to the Pro then in the menu under Global: Video: Src Format modify the Rec2020 setting from "No" to "Auto" or "Yes". The "Auto" setting will permit Rec2020 from sources connected to the Pro if the display on output 4 (or 2 for 42XX) of the Pro is connected to a Rec2020 capable display. The Output Setup menu allows specifying different CMS's now for Rec2020 or Rec601/709 sources. A new CMS labeled "Default" is initially used for Rec2020 sources after updating to this firmware. If calibration and adjustment for Rec2020 is to be done then the CMS must be changed from "Default" to another CMS in the Output: Output Setup menu. Each CMS can have it's output colorspace specified in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMS: Colorspace (defaults to "Auto" which uses the colorspace detected from the source). The label command for CMS's and Style's is now working. The information screen now shows more complete video format information, .ie 422-SDR2020 for 4:2:2 with SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) and Rec2020. Bugfix for output bottom mask not functioning independently from top mask. Input color precision improvement for 422 input. Bugfix for several cases of no output video.


If I want to send "_Rec.2020 - No HDR_" from a Samsung K8500 to a JVC RS600 pj, will this work now? If not, would an HDFury Integral inline between the Sammy and Radiance Pro enable that functionality if it's configured to disable HDR?

Any ballpark estimate on when the HDR FW update will be released?


----------



## sillysally

Here is what input output shows in the Pro 4444, using a Samsung 8500 as source and a LG EF9500 as display. 
Input, 444-SDR2020
Output, 422-SDR709

If I bypass the 4444, then the LG EF9500 goes into UHD mode.

ss


----------



## akhtarmoughal

Lg oled 950v Radiance pro Panasonic uhd 900 bluray player fireware Rec2020 deep colour on lg oled Panasonic Uhd setting HDR to auto not off


----------



## mry110

akhtarmoughal said:


> Lg oled 950v Radiance pro Panasonic uhd 900 bluray player fireware Rec2020 deep colour on lg oled Panasonic Uhd setting HDR to auto not off


Source needs to be on HDMI 4 (or 2 on the two port Radiance) I believe.


----------



## akhtarmoughal

panasonic uhd connected to input 3 tonight change to input 2 or 4


----------



## netroamer

akhtarmoughal said:


> panasonic uhd connected to input 3 tonight change to input 2 or 4



It is the output from the radiance to the display that must be on Output 4 for the four output version or output 2 for the two output version. You may use any of the available inputs.


----------



## akhtarmoughal

My lg oled is connected output 2 of pro input 3 connected Panasonic uhd player


----------



## netroamer

akhtarmoughal said:


> My lg oled is connected output 2 of pro input 3 connected Panasonic uhd player


How many total outputs does your Radiance have...2 or 4?


----------



## akhtarmoughal

2 outputs 6inputs


----------



## netroamer

akhtarmoughal said:


> 2 outputs 6inputs


Then use output 2 to the display. Any input is ok.


----------



## jrp

akhtarmoughal said:


> 2 outputs 6 inputs


Please note that no Radiance Pro has six inputs and two outputs. If it is a 2U high case (3.75 inches) with 6 inputs, it is the Radiance Pro 4444, and has four outputs. If it is a 1U high Radiance Pro the maximum number of inputs is four.

So use output 4 if the unit is 2U high, and Output 2 if the unit is 1U high.


----------



## jrp

We do not have a schedule for the HDR release for the the Radiance Pro. We are working on both 18 GHz I/O and HDR now that we have the Rad 2020 release done. We don't know how long these will take, but they are our highest priority and we will get them done as quickly as we can.


----------



## akhtarmoughal

You right Jrp sorry 4 outputs and 6inputs


----------



## SJHT

How is the 18 GHz I/O update going to work? Is this new HDMI hardware and if so, how will updates be handled? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Wookii

Finally got time to do the update - SDR/Rec2020 working fine with the Panasonic for me! Thanks very much Jim.


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> Finally got time to do the update - SDR/Rec2020 working fine with the Panasonic for me! Thanks very much Jim.


Great news!

Does it work with HDR set to off on the UB900, or do you have to set it to Auto to get SDR BT2020 sent to the Radiance?


----------



## Wookii

Manni01 said:


> Great news!
> 
> Does it work with HDR set to off on the UB900, or do you have to set it to Auto to get SDR BT2020 sent to the Radiance?


I didn't get chance to try that to be honest Manni, it was late last night when I finally got around to it, so I left it on auto - I will try setting it to off tonight.


----------



## Mike_WI

*XE->Pro issues 1) Sound, 2) HDMI loop*

Two issues have come up since exchanging my Lumagen Radiance XE for a RadiancePro 4444.

1.* Sound *via AVR is not Dolby or DTS Digital. 
I can choose surround parameters but not the "native" 7.1 signal.
Radiance is set for "audio only" for output 1 (to AVR)

2. *AVR display* not displayable via RadianceProWhen my XE was out and before new Pro I could see Denon display via projector
Now when I hook up Denon AVR to input 5 on RadiancePro I get a strange screen pattern.
I think this is some type of HDMI loop (as inputs are going into AVR for audio and out of AVR for video)


Is there a way to fix that?
With XE there was an option to have AVR Denon out via component or other cables.
(Denon component or composite out to some type of HDMI adapter???)


*Setup*
RadiancePro 4444 -- updated with latest FW
*Inputs:*
1 - DirectTV
2 - XBOX 360
3 - Oppo 980 DVD
4 - Oppo 103 BR
5 - tried hooking up to Denon 5308CI AVR 
6 - blank (to MA rack panel)


HDMI Cables - Black Squid 18Gbps - http://www.amazon.com/Cable-Braided-2160p-1080p-18Gbps/dp/B017V7HZKW?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

*Outputs:*
1 - to AVR (Denon 5308CI) via 4K HDMI cable (I forget brand)
2 - to Projector (JVC RS20 1080p) via Monoprice Cabernet Ultra CL2 Active High Speed HDMI® Cable, 30ft


*EDIT*
Also the new (Beta 051216) FW update seems to have sped up moving in menu.


----------



## turls

mry110 said:


> I'm having fits with mine. Keep getting green screens and now blank screens. Hope I can get this firmware to fix things.


Ditto. I don't know if its the same thing but not even a power cycle of the Pro helps when this bites. I have to power cycle the entire rack and I haven't been able to figure out what is the key to getting past this yet.

Happened to me at least 4-5 times in the past month or so and never happened before, and I've had the Pro a while.

Does anybody else see a "blink" of picture when this manifests itself?


----------



## LJG

Mike:

I think your issue is that the HDMI out of your AVR to input 5 down rez's the audio to PCM 2 channel, try removing the AVR from input 5 and see if you get full bit stream audio


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> PiP/PoP is a ways out. Perhaps end of Q1 or early Q2.


Not holding you to this, but just looking for an updated estimate. I know there is a lot of stuff going on with UHD. UHD is a moving target so that is a big rabbit hole to be behind on the priority list


----------



## Mike_WI

LJG said:


> Mike:
> 
> I think your issue is that the HDMI out of your AVR to input 5 down rez's the audio to PCM 2 channel, try removing the AVR from input 5 and see if you get full bit stream audio


Thanks.
I may have pulled the input 5 HDMI out (will check behind rack tonight).
However, to clarify, the non-optimal audio is coming from sources #1-4 , so I wouldn't suspect (?) that the input 5 would cause that in the other inputs.
Appreciate the assistance troubleshooting.

Mike


----------



## JFR0317

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks.
> I may have pulled the input 5 HDMI out (will check behind rack tonight).
> However, to clarify, the non-optimal audio is coming from sources #1-4 , so I wouldn't suspect (?) that the input 5 would cause that in the other inputs.
> Appreciate the assistance troubleshooting.
> 
> Mike


You might try connecting your projector to Output 4 on your Radiance Pro 4444. That output is set up for Video only output by default. Not sure if this will help, but it might overcome an HDMI capability issue.


----------



## mry110

turls said:


> Not holding you to this, but just looking for an updated estimate. I know there is a lot of stuff going on with UHD. UHD is a moving target so that is a big rabbit hole to be behind on the priority list


The pattern I noticed when the problem occurred was when the unit was on for a long period of time. I turned the fan speed up to 10, and haven't had the issue yet. Granted I haven't really put it through the paces either.


----------



## JFR0317

mry110 said:


> The pattern I noticed when the problem occurred was when the unit was on for a long period of time. I turned the fan speed up to 10, and haven't had the issue yet. Granted I haven't really put it through the paces either.


I had the same thing happen to me after the 041616 update while running the fan speed at 7. I subsequently raised it to 10, and the problem went away. Prior to the 041616 firmware update, the chip temperature would stay at or below 85 degrees C, but after the update, it would rise well over 120 degrees before displaying either a green screen or no picture at all. 

With the fan speed at 10, the chip temperature now stays at or below 77 degrees C.


----------



## jrp

We have had some people experience fan speed variations with the current fan control setup. Some fans run slower or faster with the same input.

So we are changing the fan control to be based on FPGA temperature and not just be a fixed setting. This should remove the fan variation, since a fan that runs slight slower will have its setting increased until it runs at the expected speed (as measured by the FPGA temperature). Also this will allow the fan to run slower (and so quieter) in normal situations with room temperature at the fan inlet. This is because the Radiance Pro fan control will automatically slow the fan down if the FPGA temperature is below the target temperature.

You should not need to change the fan setting in your Radiance Pro, but the meaning of the setting will change. For the normal setting (6) the FPGA temperature will be kept below the 85C range (probably in the 80C to 83C range). If you have chosen a low setting, such as 1, the Pro will allow the FPGA to get to the 90C range (or so). Of course it would be a good idea to check the FPGA temperature after being on for a while with the fan control method, and you may end up wanting to tweak the fan setting a bit.

Patrick is working out the details and there should be a new update on the website in the next day or so with the new fan control software.


----------



## JFR0317

jrp said:


> We have had some people experience fan speed variations with the current fan control setup. Some fans run slower or faster with the same input.
> 
> So we are changing the fan control to be based on FPGA temperature and not just be a fixed setting. This should remove the fan variation, since a fan that runs slight slower will have its setting increased until it runs at the expected speed (as measured by the FPGA temperature). Also this will allow the fan to run slower (and so quieter) in normal situations with room temperature at the fan inlet. This is because the Radiance Pro fan control will automatically slow the fan down if the FPGA temperature is below the target temperature.
> 
> You should not need to change the fan setting in your Radiance Pro, but the meaning of the setting will change. For the normal setting (6) the FPGA temperature will be kept below the 85C range (probably in the 80C to 83C range). If you have chosen a low setting, such as 1, the Pro will allow the FPGA to get to the 90C range (or so). Of course it would be a good idea to check the FPGA temperature after being on for a while with the fan control method, and you may end up wanting to tweak the fan setting a bit.
> 
> Patrick is working out the details and there should be a new update on the website in the next day or so with the new fan control software.


Thanks, Jim! Much appreciated!


----------



## jrp

Sounds like we have some people with Audio issues. We are thinking these are likely Audio EDID issues of the Radiance reading the EDID of the downstream AVR/PrePro, and/or reporting back to sources.

===== 

We are a ways out from having the user configurable Audio EDID control in the Menu. In the mean time we have added a special command to report all audio modes from Radiance Pro back to the sources. This has fixed at least one system that was not having uncompressed audio modes working. It may or may not resolve missing audio formats depending on the exact reason, but generally missing modes are due to some kind of an EDID compatibility issue.

The command is: MENU 0943. This enable all audio modes including uncompressed audio.

After entering this command, make sure to do a Save to make the change permanent.

You may need to power cycle sources depending on how good they are at rereading EDID on a Hotplug toggle.


----------



## jrp

turls said:


> Not holding you to this, but just looking for an updated estimate. I know there is a lot of stuff going on with UHD. UHD is a moving target so that is a big rabbit hole to be behind on the priority list


I have to admit to being a bit shy about releasing a schedule for HDR. Two or three months ago I thought we would have HDR and Rec 2020 by now. Other issues/bugs, and just the fact that HDR and Rec 2020 are a larger effort than we thought has delayed us. Your comment about a rabbit hole seems appropriate.

We were working on a release with both HDR and Rec 2020, and part-way through dropped HDR so we could get a Rec 2020 release out.

That said, I am thinking we will be able to do an initial release of HDR for the Radiance Pro in July, based on where we are now and knowing more about HDR than we did three months ago. Please note that this is not a "schedule." It's just our target date. We have not reached the bottom of the rabbit hole yet.


----------



## Mike_WI

*MENU 0943. This enable all audio modes including uncompressed audio*

Thanks. That worked -- at least for the input = 4 = Oppo 103 that I tried.

Mike


Mike_WI said:


> Two issues have come up since exchanging my Lumagen Radiance XE for a RadiancePro 4444.
> 
> 1.* Sound *via AVR is not Dolby or DTS Digital.
> I can choose surround parameters but not the "native" 7.1 signal.
> Radiance is set for "audio only" for output 1 (to AVR)
> 
> 2. *AVR display* not displayable via RadianceProWhen my XE was out and before new Pro I could see Denon display via projector
> Now when I hook up Denon AVR to input 5 on RadiancePro I get a strange screen pattern.
> I think this is some type of HDMI loop (as inputs are going into AVR for audio and out of AVR for video)
> 
> 
> Is there a way to fix that?
> With XE there was an option to have AVR Denon out via component or other cables.
> (Denon component or composite out to some type of HDMI adapter???)
> 
> 
> *Setup*
> RadiancePro 4444 -- updated with latest FW
> *Inputs:*
> 1 - DirectTV
> 2 - XBOX 360
> 3 - Oppo 980 DVD
> 4 - Oppo 103 BR
> 5 - tried hooking up to Denon 5308CI AVR
> 6 - blank (to MA rack panel)
> 
> 
> HDMI Cables - Black Squid 18Gbps - http://www.amazon.com/Cable-Braided-2160p-1080p-18Gbps/dp/B017V7HZKW?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
> 
> *Outputs:*
> 1 - to AVR (Denon 5308CI) via 4K HDMI cable (I forget brand)
> 2 - to Projector (JVC RS20 1080p) via Monoprice Cabernet Ultra CL2 Active High Speed HDMI® Cable, 30ft
> 
> 
> *EDIT*
> Also the new (Beta 051216) FW update seems to have sped up moving in menu.





Mike_WI said:


> Thanks.
> I may have pulled the input 5 HDMI out (will check behind rack tonight).
> However, to clarify, the non-optimal audio is coming from sources #1-4 , so I wouldn't suspect (?) that the input 5 would cause that in the other inputs.
> Appreciate the assistance troubleshooting.
> 
> Mike





jrp said:


> Sounds like we have some people with Audio issues. We are thinking these are likely Audio EDID issues of the Radiance reading the EDID of the downstream AVR/PrePro, and/or reporting back to sources.
> 
> =====
> 
> We are a ways out from having the user configurable Audio EDID control in the Menu. In the mean time we have added a special command to report all audio modes from Radiance Pro back to the sources. This has fixed at least one system that was not having uncompressed audio modes working. It may or may not resolve missing audio formats depending on the exact reason, but generally missing modes are due to some kind of an EDID compatibility issue.
> 
> The command is: MENU 0943. This enable all audio modes including uncompressed audio.
> 
> After entering this command, make sure to do a Save to make the change permanent.
> 
> You may need to power cycle sources depending on how good they are at rereading EDID on a Hotplug toggle.


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> I have to admit to being a bit shy about releasing a schedule for HDR. Two or three months ago I thought we would have HDR and Rec 2020 by now. Other issues/bugs, and just the fact that HDR and Rec 2020 are a larger effort than we thought has delayed us. Your comment about a rabbit hole seems appropriate.


Actually the question was about PiP. My point being it isn't a moving target like the other pieces that seem to be dominating discussion lately.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 052016 FW Update*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates



> *Beta 052016*-
> Changes fan control to be automated with some flexibility to trade off quietness for running FPGA a bit warmer.
> Current fan control setting is mapped to new "Temperature goal" setting in the menu under *Other: Fan control*.
> Bugfix for color issue with 480i and 576i.
> Bugfix for sometimes losing input video on mode change.
> Improved display EDID processing to handle a new method of specifying 4k60/50 capability.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> 
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mark_H

Just tried to install the latest update. Installed ok, but Pro no longer boots correctly. I get no video and can hear the fan has ramped up to 10.

Tried to redo the update, and roll back, but getting checksum errors on the update.

Now digging through emails looking for boot mode updates.

Either way, not happy with this update :/


----------



## Mark_H

OK, normal service resumed. On with testing.


----------



## Mark_H

OK, first comment, with a temp goal of 80C the Pro starts off way too loud now before the fan slows down. My 2nd Pro is in my TV room, where the Pro is the loudest component, so any increase in noise is unwelcome. Please start the fan of quieter and ramp up if necessary... after about 60 seconds the fan is now almost silent, which is great, but that startup noise is too high...

My fan was set to 6 previously, so perhaps that could be the bootup speed??

Also, I hope the fan increase is smart enough never to jump in to high modes, but rather to creep up slowly. At default 6 I never had any heat issues with the Pro and the noise was bearable. Above 6 the fan noise is intolerable.


----------



## Mark_H

And a positive comment... The fan is currently very much quieter (temp:69C) than I have been used too under the TV, which is very welcome. Previously low speeds made the fan sound "wobbly" but now it's nice and smooth?


----------



## turls

Mark_H said:


> OK, normal service resumed. On with testing.


So you ended up on the newest update after all? Did you have to re-load the update?


----------



## Mark_H

Newest update, yes. Rolled back one firmware and had to do a boot mode update to get it installed, and then the new update worked first time after that.


----------



## Mark_H

Watching fan temps is interesting!

At 24 fps, my temp is 70. At 60 fps, my temp goes to 82.

At the default fan temp of 80, my fan revved up to 5 to keep the temp down during a couple of hours of viewing. I found the fan tempo changing during viewing distracting, so I bumped the target temp to 84, and this kept the fan down to settings 1 & 2, which I didn't notice at all, except during silent moments.

While I think the auto-fan is a good idea, eg to stop the Pro cooking itself, I do think there should also be the option to fix the fan speed as before. I was able to choose a fan setting that was the most "white noise" like and blended into the background better. Some of the low fan settings have a "wobbly" sound to them that is actually more noticeable than the "white noise" of some of the higher fan settings.

A passive cooling solution would have been better, even if it were an optional cost item.

I now have two Pros. One is in my cinema's electronic room, where the fan can run as noisily as it wants and I'll never hear it. The 2nd Pro is under my TV, in a room which, until the Pro arrived, was completely silent. I did test the original Pro there and decided I could live with the low fan settings, but, for me, the addition of a fan to the Lumagen products is a negative. And of course, my TV Pro turned out to be louder than the first (sod's law)...

Anyway, I seem to have it under control for now.


----------



## Mark_H

Scratch that - the temp seems to be related more to bitrate than frame rate? So just watching some BBC "HD" on Sky (1080i/50) and the temp was around 71. But when I switch to Amazon FireTV HD, with its vastly superior HD image, from presumably a much higher bitrate, the temp jumps to around 82. Or is that because it's now 1080p/50 instead of 1080i/50? Watching some 576p/50 stuff and the temp was down to around 65...

It seems the more unique pixels there are to crunch the hotter the temp... so is the temp a useful proxy for bitrate?? 

I've often wondered whether it would be possible for the Lumagen models to display their current input bitrate, so we could get a direct insight into just how compressed our various broadcasters/sources are...


----------



## Mark_H

Fan starts at 4 (noisy) on my system and then slows down to 1 (quiet). Given that the chip is cold to start with, why not start the fan at 1 and work up if needed? That way there is no initial "jet plane taking off" effect?


----------



## Mike_WI

Mark_H said:


> Scratch that - the temp seems to be related more to bitrate than frame rate? So just watching some BBC "HD" on Sky (1080i/50) and the temp was around 71. But when I switch to Amazon FireTV HD, with its vastly superior HD image, from presumably a much higher bitrate, the temp jumps to around 82. Or is that because it's now 1080p/50 instead of 1080i/50? Watching some 576p/50 stuff and the temp was down to around 65...
> 
> It seems the more unique pixels there are to crunch the hotter the temp... so is the temp a useful proxy for bitrate??
> 
> I've often wondered whether it would be possible for the Lumagen models to display their current input bitrate, so we could get a direct insight into just how compressed our various broadcasters/sources are...


Agree with bitrate read -- can help see how compressed streaming is vs. BR vs UHD.

I await the liquid cooling modifications...


Mike


----------



## Wookii

Whilst we're talking about the bit-rate, does anyone know if the Radiance info screens show the incoming and outgoing colour bit depth?


----------



## stanger89

Mark_H said:


> Scratch that - the temp seems to be related more to bitrate than frame rate? So just watching some BBC "HD" on Sky (1080i/50) and the temp was around 71. But when I switch to Amazon FireTV HD, with its vastly superior HD image, from presumably a much higher bitrate, the temp jumps to around 82. Or is that because it's now 1080p/50 instead of 1080i/50? Watching some 576p/50 stuff and the temp was down to around 65...
> 
> It seems the more unique pixels there are to crunch the hotter the temp... so is the temp a useful proxy for bitrate??
> 
> I've often wondered whether it would be possible for the Lumagen models to display their current input bitrate, so we could get a direct insight into just how compressed our various broadcasters/sources are...


Not really, the Lumagen sees raw, uncompressed video, it has no idea what the source bitrate was, just the resolution/frame rate. The Radiance could display the incoming data rate, but it would not be useful. All 1080p24 would be the same 1920*1080*24 * bits per pixel. Assuming the color sampling is the same, you'd see the same bitrate for Blu-ray or Netflix. As far as the Radiance is concerned, all 1080p is the same, other than frame rate and color sampling.

Regarding your temps, that makes sense, 1080i50 has half the pixel rate of 1080p50, and 576p would be ~1/6th of 1080p50. Less pixels to chew on, less work, less heat.


----------



## Mark_H

stanger89 said:


> Not really, the Lumagen sees raw, uncompressed video, it has no idea what the source bitrate was, just the resolution/frame rate. The Radiance could display the incoming data rate, but it would not be useful. All 1080p24 would be the same 1920*1080*24 * bits per pixel. Assuming the color sampling is the same, you'd see the same bitrate for Blu-ray or Netflix. As far as the Radiance is concerned, all 1080p is the same, other than frame rate and color sampling.


Yes, I understand that - I was thinking more of a count of unique pixels as a proxy for bitrate. It probably wouldn't be at all useful.



> Regarding your temps, that makes sense, 1080i50 has half the pixel rate of 1080p50, and 576p would be ~1/6th of 1080p50. Less pixels to chew on, less work, less heat.


Yup.

A bit worried about 2160p60 now and what that will do to the fan!


----------



## Bill DePalma

just loaded the new firmware onto my pro and was anxious to see how it handled 4K from the Samsung 8500 player. Not well. Feeding directly to the Pro and out putting to JVC rs600 I am having syncing problems. NO video or audio (which the Pro is feeding a Marnantz 7702MII) until I toggle the power on the Pro. I then get video but audio is only back channel info, no fronts. Another toggle on the Pro gets both audio and video up and running fine. But, if I stop playback I am back to no AV output. Maybe my cables, but they have been rock solid up until now and they are short, 6'. Clearly communication issues with the Samsung. I will test further today. Just adding my 2cents.


----------



## stanger89

Mark_H said:


> Yes, I understand that - I was thinking more of a count of unique pixels as a proxy for bitrate. It probably wouldn't be at all useful.


What I'm saying is the number of "unique" pixels will always be the same for a given resolution+frame rate+color format+bit depth. The encoded bitrate is irrelevant once the player decodes it. The number of "unique" pixels for a completely black frame/scene it exactly the same as for a complicated explosion.


----------



## Mark_H

You're misunderstanding my point... I'm talking about the differences in the pixels in the image, not the total number of pixels, ie counting the number of changes in each frame to get a rough sense of the original bitrate. For instance, I can clearly see that the SKY HD broadcasts in the UK, while contained within a 1080 wrapper are clearly lower bitrate than the stunningly detailed 1080 images I get from my Amazon FireHD box. I would be interested to see some sort of meter showing the amount of changing pixels in each source...


----------



## stanger89

Sounds like you're looking for something like PSNR

I doubt a simple pixel change count would be a very good metric for bitrate. Lots of times highly compressed video (low bitrate) ends up with lots of encoding artifacts which can result in _more_ pixels changing than with a higher bitrate encoding.


----------



## Dirk44

Hi Mark,

good to have you back for good.
Any new solutions with your vw 1000 /fury and HDR plus or without 2020 ?

I'm still go nuts getting no proper picture with the Panasonic UHD Player.

best dirk


----------



## p5browne

Manufacturers go to cooling fans because of cost. A good sized heat sink, would be deadly quiet, but drive up cost and weight. But at the price point of a Pro, would it make that much difference, versus customer satisfaction of NO fan noise?


----------



## Mark_H

stanger89 said:


> Sounds like you're looking for something like PSNR
> 
> I doubt a simple pixel change count would be a very good metric for bitrate. Lots of times highly compressed video (low bitrate) ends up with lots of encoding artifacts which can result in _more_ pixels changing than with a higher bitrate encoding.


Yeah, I agree. Just thought I'd mention it in case somebody (*cough* lumagen) came up with a bright idea


----------



## Mark_H

p5browne said:


> Manufacturers go to cooling fans because of cost. A good sized heat sink, would be deadly quiet, but drive up cost and weight. But at the price point of a Pro, would it make that much difference, versus customer satisfaction of NO fan noise?


Indeed.


----------



## Mark_H

Dirk44 said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> good to have you back for good.
> Any new solutions with your vw 1000 /fury and HDR plus or without 2020 ?
> 
> I'm still go nuts getting no proper picture with the Panasonic UHD Player.
> 
> best dirk


Given the mess that HDR is in at present I'm quite happy getting 4K SDR from the Panny only. I will experiment with the 2020 firmware soon, but suspect I'll stick to Rec709 for now with the 1000 and wait for JVC to release a 4K Laser Sony Killer later this year


----------



## stanger89

p5browne said:


> Manufacturers go to cooling fans because of cost. A good sized heat sink, would be deadly quiet, but drive up cost and weight. But at the price point of a Pro, would it make that much difference, versus customer satisfaction of NO fan noise?


But passive cooling is much more sensitive to setup/environmental factors. The end user has to make sure there's adequate airflow for the heatsinks to work. You probably couldn't just stuff a hypothetical passive Pro in your rack between other components and have it remain cool. With a fan, it's easier.


----------



## sillysally

Bill DePalma said:


> just loaded the new firmware onto my pro and was anxious to see how it handled 4K from the Samsung 8500 player. Not well. Feeding directly to the Pro and out putting to JVC rs600 I am having syncing problems. NO video or audio (which the Pro is feeding a Marnantz 7702MII) until I toggle the power on the Pro. I then get video but audio is only back channel info, no fronts. Another toggle on the Pro gets both audio and video up and running fine. But, if I stop playback I am back to no AV output. Maybe my cables, but they have been rock solid up until now and they are short, 6'. Clearly communication issues with the Samsung. I will test further today. Just adding my 2cents.


The Samsung and the Pro are a no go for Rec2020 in and out.

All this talk about the fan and how its controlled, imho is a wast of time. The manual control worked fine for me.

What I would like to see is a fix for the Samsung and Rec.2020 in and out of the Pro. Along with the 18gig cards and a start at getting the 4K formats working.

ss

ss


----------



## Nudgiator

sillysally said:


> The Samsung and the Pro are a no go for Rec2020 in and out.


Why? I am using a K8500 with my JVC X7000. The only problem is, that you cannot deactivate HDR via the K8500. The second thing is the low current at the HDMI output of the K8500. Without the 4446 my Redmere 10.2 Gbps cable is not working with 4k. When I use the 4446, I can display [email protected] without any problems!



> All this talk about the fan and how its controlled, imho is a wast of time. The manual control worked fine for me.


Well, there was a bug. And I am happy that Pat could find it. Was not really easy to find.



> What I would like to see is a fix for the Samsung and Rec.2020 in and out of the Pro.


Again: what's your problem with 2020 and the Pro?



> Along with the 18gig cards and a start at getting the 4K formats working.


IMHO the most important things at the moment are HDR and BT.2020. 18 Ghz is nice, but not really important at the moment. All movies are [email protected]


----------



## Wookii

Wookii said:


> does anyone know if the Radiance info screens show the incoming and outgoing colour bit depth?


Does anyone know where I can find this?

Currently the Panasonic player is outputting at 12 Bit, but my RS600 is only reporting 8 bit. I don't know if the PJ is mis-reporting or if down sampling is happening in the Radiance?


----------



## Nudgiator

Wookii said:


> I don't know if the PJ is mis-reporting or if down sampling is happening in the Radiance?


The PRO cannot pass-through HDR at the moment. At the moment you have to deactivate HDR inside of your Pana-UHD-player. Then you get out BT.2020, but not HDR. That will be possible when Lumagen has implemented HDR via a firmware update.


----------



## Wookii

Nudgiator said:


> The PRO cannot pass-through HDR at the moment. At the moment you have to deactivate HDR inside of your Pana-UHD-player. Then you get out BT.2020, but not HDR. That will be possible when Lumagen has implemented HDR via a firmware update.


Thanks, but I'm not talking about HDR, I'm talking about colour bit depth. Turning off HDR in the Panny will only get you SDR709 I believe, you have to set Rec2020 to 'Yes' in the Radiance Pro, and leave the Panny on 'Auto' on the HDR setting. That will get you SDR Rec2020 422 12 Bit as the Lumagen sends the correct no-HDR EDID back to the player.

My concern is the Colour Bit Depth only, which the player is reporting being sent at 12 Bits, but the PJ is reporting being 8 Bits.


----------



## Wookii

Sorry another question; has anyone been able to successfully use Calman with their Radiance Pro to create a Rec2020 3D LUT? 

I tried the other night without success, as per the screen grab. I'm assuming that because the display (RS600) can't hit the full RGB triplets for Rec2020, that its throwing out all the other colour points. This is presumably a Calman issue, not a Radiance issue, but I just wondered if anyone else had any success? I'm guessing I may need to target lower than 100% saturation points?


----------



## stanger89

Wookii said:


> Thanks, but I'm not talking about HDR, I'm talking about colour bit depth. Turning off HDR in the Panny will only get you SDR709 I believe, you have to set Rec2020 to 'Yes' in the Radiance Pro, and leave the Panny on 'Auto' on the HDR setting. That will get you SDR Rec2020 422 12 Bit as the Lumagen sends the correct no-HDR EDID back to the player.
> 
> My concern is the Colour Bit Depth only, which the player is reporting being sent at 12 Bits, but the PJ is reporting being 8 Bits.


If it's like the XE, you can just hit enter with no menus showing, and it will take you through the status/debug screens and show you input and output formats.


----------



## Wookii

stanger89 said:


> If it's like the XE, you can just hit enter with no menus showing, and it will take you through the status/debug screens and show you input and output formats.


Yes, its the same with the Pro, but I can't see colour bit depth listed in there, unless I'm completely missing it (which is quiet possible).


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 052116- Fix for bad fan behavior and overheating. After this update completes---make sure it's complete---unplug power for 5 seconds, replug it and then power up. The fan controller chip only resets with power removed. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Gordon Fraser

This latest update has fixed the fan bug i had in previous firmware. Thanks


----------



## Dirk44

Mark_H said:


> Given the mess that HDR is in at present I'm quite happy getting 4K SDR from the Panny only. I will experiment with the 2020 firmware soon, but suspect I'll stick to Rec709 for now with the 1000 and wait for JVC to release a 4K Laser Sony Killer later this year


Thanx Mark,

i absolute agree the SDR 4k picture is better so far.
But I think what 2020 and HDR later, was the reason for you to buy the pro ?
I was ws hoping you can report a solution with the Fury in use to remove HDR and get a now faded 4k SDR 2020 Picture work ! 

Best Regards dirk


----------



## sillysally

Nudgiator said:


> Why? I am using a K8500 with my JVC X7000. The only problem is, that you cannot deactivate HDR via the K8500. The second thing is the low current at the HDMI output of the K8500. Without the 4446 my Redmere 10.2 Gbps cable is not working with 4k. When I use the 4446, I can display [email protected] without any problems!


If you check you will see that when playing a HDR Blu Ray using the Samsung K8500, the Pro 444x will only output SDR709 [email protected] Not HDR2020.



Nudgiator said:


> Well, there was a bug. And I am happy that Pat could find it. Was not really easy to find.


For me the manual fan speed of 1 to 10 work well. I set the fan on 8, my chip stayed about 60 C. There was no bug in the manual temp fan setting



Nudgiator said:


> Again: what's your problem with 2020 and the Pro?


Check and you will see I am correct about HDR2020 not being outputted. 
Yes the Pro 444x will output SDR709 2160 8 bit, but not HDR2020 or SDR2020. 

Both Jim and Pat know about this issue.
The 05/12 beta update only works for the Panasonic 4K Blu Ray player that is not currently being sold for zone A/USA/Canada. 

ss


----------



## Nudgiator

Bill DePalma said:


> Is it possible to roll back to the previous firmware, and how is that done?


Yes, you can. Download the older firmware and install it. But I would try a boot mode update first with the newest firmware. That helps sometimes.


----------



## Nudgiator

> For me the manual fan speed of 1 to 10 work well. I set the fan on 8, my chip stayed about 60 C. There was no bug in the manual temp fan setting


It was a bug on some devices. I detected the bug and Pat solved it 



> Check and you will see I am correct about HDR2020 not being outputted.
> Yes the Pro 444x will output SDR709 2160 8 bit, but not HDR2020 or SDR2020.


As far as I remember, that's a "problem" with the K8500, because you cannot deactivate HDR. When the K8500 sees no HDR (the Radiance PRO cannot pass-through HDR at the moment), it deactivates BT.2020 and also HDR.



> Both Jim and Pat know about this issue.
> The 05/12 beta update only works for the Panasonic 4K Blu Ray player that is not currently being sold for zone A/USA/Canada.


Well, that's not an issue. That's because of the fact that the K8500 can only output BT.2020 AND HDR. The UB900 can deactivate HDR, but still outputs BT.2020.


----------



## sillysally

Nudgiator said:


> As far as I remember, that's a "problem" with the K8500, because you cannot deactivate HDR. When the K8500 sees no HDR (the Radiance PRO cannot pass-through HDR at the moment), it deactivates BT.2020 and also HDR.
> 
> Well, that's not an issue. That's because of the fact that the K8500 can only output BT.2020 AND HDR. The UB900 can deactivate HDR, but still outputs BT.2020.


Well, it is a issue when you can't use the very high end Pro 444x to play/process a HDR 4K Blu Ray.
Particularly if your are using a 3DLUT calibration for BT.2020.

As far as outputting SDR709 2160 at 8 bits, there never was a issue. The issue is inputting/outputting SDR/HDR BT.2020.

I am able to get the Pro to force input SDR2020 (as reported by the Pro), But no SDR2020 out only SDR709.

As for HDMI cable, I use the BJC Belden Series-FE HDMI Cables (6' to 8') with NP.
It is interesting what you say about the Redmere 10.2 Gbps cable. I got a few of those cables when I got the K8500, I sent them back.

ss


----------



## Nudgiator

sillysally said:


> Well, it is a issue when you can't use the very high end Pro 444x to play/process a HDR 4K Blu Ray.
> Particularly if your are using a 3DLUT calibration for BT.2020.


Well, the Radiance Pro cannot pass-through HDR at the moment, but BT.2020 ... and YES ... only with the UB900. It has never been a secret, that the firmware of the PRO must support HDR AND BT.2020 first, to do this. And yes: I would also like to use my 4446 with my K10A and LightSpace ... but when you really want this and have no time to wait until end of July, you must use the HD Fury integral for injecting HDR 



> As far as outputting SDR709 2160 at 8 bits, there never was a issue. The issue is inputting/outputting SDR/HDR BT.2020.
> 
> I am able to get the Pro to force input SDR2020 (as reported by the Pro), But no SDR2020 out only SDR709.


I have already tried to explain it: buy the UB900 ... there you can deactivate HDR independant from BT.2020. Unfortunately it's not possible with the K8500 ... but that's not the problem of Lumagen ... it's the problem of the "stupid" design of the K8500.



> As for HDMI cable, I use the BJC Belden Series-FE HDMI Cables (6' to 8') with NP.
> It is interesting what you say about the Redmere 10.2 Gbps cable. I got a few of those cables when I got the K8500, I sent them back.


Well, the 10.2 Gbps Redmere cables do NOT work with the K8500, when I use them without the Radiance PRO 4446. But WITH the Radiance PRO 4446 it's possible. The reason is very easy: the PRO uses enough current on its output, the K8500 not. By the way: I know many peoples who use the Monoprice Cabernet cables with 30, 40 and 50feet ... DIRECTLY with the K8500 and 4k without any problems!


----------



## sillysally

Nudgiator said:


> I have already tried to explain it: buy the UB900 ... there you can deactivate HDR independant from BT.2020. Unfortunately it's not possible with the K8500 ... but that's not the problem of Lumagen ... it's the problem of the "stupid" design of the K8500.


Yes I understand all about the Pro's limitations and the "stupid" design of the K8500.
Non the less I can get the Pro to except input SDR2020 from the K8500, but still the Pro will not output SDR2020 even @24FPS/8bits. Why can the Pro except SDR2020 from the "stupid" K8500 but it is not able to output SDR2020??
imho, if a processor can except input it should be able to output the same, unless there is a issue with the processors firmware or hardware. In the case of the Pro outputting SDR2020 at 24fps/8bit is not a hardware issue.

The UB900 is not being sold here in the States or Canada. Also I have read the UB900 is region B, as you know here in the USA we use region A. Plus the power conversion from Uk to USA. So for those of us that live in the USA buying UB900 is not a option.


----------



## Nudgiator

sillysally said:


> Yes I understand all about the Pro's limitations and the "stupid" design of the K8500.
> Non the less I can get the Pro to except input SDR2020 from the K8500, but still the Pro will not output SDR2020 even @*24FPS* /8bits. Why can the Pro except SDR2020 from the "stupid" K8500 but it is not able to output SDR2020??
> imho, if a processor can except input it should be able to output the same, unless there is a issue with the processors firmware or hardware. In the case of the Pro outputting SDR2020 at 24fps/8bit is not a hardware issue.


I can see exactly the same there with my 4446, the K8500 and the JVC-X7000: 2020 on the input, but not on the output. As far as I understood Jim, you MUST be able to deactivate HDR to pass-through the 2020-signal at the moment. I think you can do this with a HD Fury Integral.



> The UB900 is not being sold here in the States or Canada. Also I have read the UB900 is region B, as you know here in the USA we use region A. Plus the power conversion from Uk to USA. So for those of us that live in the USA buying UB900 is not a option.


Yes, I also think you have to live with another region code at least for BDs/DVDs. Only UHDs will be region free. The power conversion is not really a problem, because all manufacturers use a voltage range from 100 to 240 volts.
I decided for the K8500, because the UB900 produces black crush with my X7000.


----------



## Nudgiator

Bill DePalma said:


> Thanks, I was able to reinstall the older firmware and now I am back to displaying and switching sources without any issues. As a quick note about the 8500 and HDfury. I was unable to use this combo feeding the Pro. No video output. For now, I am bypassing the Lumagen when using the 8500/HDfury, going staight to the projector.
> This is working.


I would try a boot mode update with the newest firmware. It's working fine for me.

Which projector do you use? With HDCP 2.2?


----------



## jamesmil

Nudgiator said:


> I can see exactly the same there with my 4446, the K8500 and the JVC-X7000: 2020 on the input, but not on the output. As far as I understood Jim, you MUST be able to deactivate HDR to pass-through the 2020-signal at the moment. I think you can do this with a HD Fury Integral.


What settings on the K8500 are you using to see BT2020 on input? With mine I can only see 2160p 444-SDR 709 input. Could you show a screenshot of the info screen? Thanks.


----------



## GerryWaz

Bill DePalma said:


> I am using the JVC RS600 with HDCP2.2. Not sure how to do a BOOT Mode firmware update


Look at the tip sheet PDF that is included in the zip of any update. It's on page 3 of the PDF.

Never did one before until a few months ago. Worked really easy for me.


----------



## Nudgiator

Bill DePalma said:


> I am using the JVC RS600 with HDCP2.2. Not sure how to do a BOOT Mode firmware update


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 052516- Added input colorspace to test pattern mode command in the menu under Other: Test Pattern: Test Mode as well as corrections to the test pattern mode function. Bugfix for fan turnoff if Auto power-on was enabled---if you were using this or are not sure then you should remove power after completion of update before restarting. Bugfix for proper function of settings in menu under Other: OnOff Setup. Bugfix for correct checkmarks on CMS's after modifying Output Setup. Bugfix for sometimes using incorrect CMS color decoder, black and white settings. Bugfix to avoid corrupting a test pattern if the active but undisplayed source turns off or changes modes. Added rs232 command to set test pattern mode with input colorspace, ZY533ICSDM. The 'I' field is the input colorspace with legal values of 1 or 2 corresponding to Rec709 or Rec2020 (for further information on the other fields in this command see the ZY532 command in Tech Tip 11). Added rs232 command ZQI50 to to query Rec2020 support on the display connected to main video output (4 on 44XX and 2 on 42XX). ZQI50 replies with 'Y' or 'N'. Expanded rs232 command, ZY46, to handle output colorspace as well as pixel format. Usage is ZY46FC where 'F' is pixel format as described in Tech Tip 11 and 'C' (legal value 0-3) sets the current CMS output colorspace to Auto,601,709 or 2020 respectively. Other small bugfixes and improvements. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

The Pro can accept Rec 2020 as has been mentioned. Some say they can't get the Pro to output Rec 2020 info frame flag, but we know this works with the Sony TV we have with the Radiance Pro CMS color mode as "Auto" mode. So there is likely a compatibility issue with these other devices.

The CMS now has a color space setting. With the new "Auto" setting, if the display/projector EDID reports Rec 2020, the CMS "Auto" should output the Rec 2020 info frame if the source is Rec 2020. So this may mean we are not getting the Rec 2020 EDID information from the projector to know we can send Rec 2020.

Two things to try:

1) Set the CMS mode for the CMS that is selected for Rec 2020 source to "2020". This should force the Rec 2020 info frame flags in the output, and then the TV/projector should report Rec 2020.

2) If the "2020" CMS mode gets the TV/Projector to report it is getting Rec 2020 (or even if not) we would like to ask that you email [email protected] pictures off the EDID information from the TV/Projector (see below). This will help us make sure we can parse the EDID and extract the Rec 2020 if the EDID is different than expected.

If you have a Rec 2020 TV/projector and it is not working with the Pro Rec 2020, you can bring up the EDID info as follows:

If you have a 444X, with the TV/projector on Output 4:

Press "menu 0909" for first 128 bytes and take a picture, press "menu 0909" again to get 2nd 128 bytes and take a picture.

If you have a 424X, with the TV/projector on Output 2:

Press "menu 0907" for first 128 bytes and take a picture, press "menu 0907" again to get 2nd 128 bytes and take a picture.

Then email the photos to [email protected] and include as much detail about your system as you can, but at least the source device and the TV/projector model.


----------



## sillysally

Are you talking about 052516 firmware.
If so, we first need a fix so the Pro 4444 can get a stable connection from the Sansung K8500. 
With firmware 052516 the K8500 is basically unusable.
If you roll back the firemware to 052116, then there is a stable connection with the K8500.,

ss


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> Are you talking about 052516 firmware.
> If so, we first need a fix so the Pro 4444 can get a stable connection from the Sansung K8500.
> With firmware 052516 the K8500 is basically unusable.
> If you roll back the firemware to 052116, then there is a stable connection with the K8500.,
> 
> ss


The features in question are the same in 052116 and 052516.

There is an issue in 052516 for some units. Looks to be an FPGA timing issue. The FPGA tools are not perfect and sometimes we get a reported good timing for an FPGA design that is not as good as the tools say it is.

We will fix 052516 issue in the next release. In the mean time you can do the Rec 2020 testing with 052116.


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> The features in question are the same in 052116 and 052516.
> 
> There is an issue in 052516 for some units. Looks to be an FPGA timing issue. The FPGA tools are not perfect and sometimes we get a reported good timing for an FPGA design that is not as good as the tools say it is.
> 
> We will fix 052516 issue in the next release. In the mean time you can do the Rec 2020 testing with 052116.


Good to hear, thanks.

I just want to be sure the Pro's triplet patterns and CMS for 3DLUT's are working as they should.

Saw that there was some updates with triplet patterns and CMS in the 052516. 

ss


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> I just want to be sure the Pro's triplet patterns and CMS for 3DLUT's are working as they should.
> 
> Saw that there was some updates with triplet patterns and CMS in the 052516.
> 
> ss


For Rec 2020 with 052116, you can use the patterns for Rec 2020 but make sure the source is Rec 2020 so the hardware does the right thing.

With 052516 the source does not need to be Rec 2020 mode to calibrate for Rec 2020, since the new commands allow the test patterns to be in Rec 2020 mode even if the source is Rec 709. NOTE: The calibration software programs do not have this new feature in yet, so probably still easiest if the source is Rec 2020 for now anyway.


----------



## roxiedog13

*New Owner 4440*

Just picked up the 4440 , have a huge learning curve ahead of me for calibration but first just want to plug and play for a while, get use to the remote and other features.

For reference I have a Sony VW600ES , Oppo 103D and Denon X5200 in the chain . Since the X5200 is not compliant I'm running the Oppo and other devices through the Denon, into the Lumagen and then to the projector. Projector is on line out 4 as instructed .

I turned off all processing on the Oppo and Denon, the VW600 also does not do the scaling, I've been trying to do that through the Lumagen. Oh, and I mostly watch movies only and have a anamorphic lens in front of the Lumagen most of the time.

Checkingthe lumagen output it shows 1080 in and 4K out, I assume the no-ring scaling is going on. Problem is I am seeing edge artifacts on text and on other objects that I have never seen before. I also do not believe the stretch is being done properly , it looks wider. I tried setting 16:9 but cannot figure out how to stretch now, the menu is still quite confusing to me at this point. 

Anyway, just want to get the stretch process working first and then start playing with other features later. Right now I've taken a step backwards, I'm sure it won't take long to put this back on track.


----------



## Nudgiator

roxiedog13 said:


> Checkingthe lumagen output it shows 1080 in and 4K out, I assume the no-ring scaling is going on. Problem is I am seeing edge artifacts on text and on other objects that I have never seen before.


Which input signal do you use? 1080i50???


----------



## uderman

To be honest, rec.2020 and HDR updates don't excite me. These are expected features, nothing special. The product is still beta which means any promised feature delivered before alpha isn't late. I am more excited about what other suprise features we are going to get from the pro after it hits alpha.


----------



## Mark_H

uderman said:


> To be honest, rec.2020 and HDR updates don't excite me. These are expected features, nothing special. The product is still beta which means any promised feature delivered before alpha isn't late. I am more excited about what other suprise features we are going to get from the pro after it hits alpha.


UHD, for me, is the big missing bit of my setup's puzzle... am having to bypass the Pro entirely if I want to see the sources in their full glory... and that pressure is only set to increase. The only thing I really need otherwise, right now, is better video deinterlacing.


----------



## Nudgiator

Mark_H said:


> UHD, for me, is the big missing bit of my setup's puzzle... am having to bypass the Pro entirely if I want to see the sources in their full glory... and that pressure is only set to increase. The only thing I really need otherwise, right now, is better video deinterlacing.


100% agreement, especially with the video deinterlacing and the current artifacts!!!


----------



## roxiedog13

Nudgiator said:


> Which input signal do you use? 1080i50???



In all honesty I do not know. I'll have a look at this tonight and edit the post later. I would have assumed this to be auto based on the input.


----------



## roxiedog13

Mark_H said:


> UHD, for me, is the big missing bit of my setup's puzzle... am having to bypass the Pro entirely if I want to see the sources in their full glory... and that pressure is only set to increase. The only thing I really need otherwise, right now, is better video deinterlacing.



I thought you bought a VW5000 but come to think about it you only just had the 1000 repaired . You'll have faux HDR with the Pro soon though, should get you 
by until the next purchase. That's my plan if I keep the VW500 for a while .


----------



## Mark_H

I have two Pros. The 2nd is driving my UHD OLED TV, so that's the one that needs HDR now... The projector is the Sony 1000, yes, so hoping for faux-HDR on there via the Pro at some stage.


----------



## Mark_H

Summary of the major things I would like to see in order to fix current issues (in no particular order):

Full basic HDR support, and then the Pro supporting non-HDR displays via meta-data mapping into the available output. And HDR test pattern support for use with, eg CalMAN.
A working Genlock and Rate Match
Video Deinterlacing improvements

And then other stuff like:

Clean switching between MEM banks for making A/B comparisons
EDID control, both audio and video

And then all the other bells and whistles menu options that are currently "not implemented"

And 4K Darbee when/if it becomes available to add in.


----------



## SJHT

Anyone running a Kscape Strato and Pro? Would like any setup hints as I'm hooking this up tommorow. The Strato doesn't have HDR yet (coming in the next firmware), so not an issue that the Pro doesn't handle this. I also would like the Pro to do the up scaling to 4K for 1080P material vs. the Strato if possible. Any recommendations appreciated. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Anyone running a Kscape Strato and Pro? Would like any setup hints as I'm hooking this up tomorow. The Strato doesn't have HDR yet (coming in the next firmware), so not an issue that the Pro doesn't handle this. I also would like the Pro to do the up scaling to 4K for 1080P material vs. the Strato if possible. Any recommendations appreciated. SJ


We actually have here a Strato we bought for testing. I am using it frequently and really like it. I like the fact that you can pre-load movies at the full BD, or UHD, quality on the disc. Great quality, and not interruptions in the middle of a movie due to bandwidth constraints. You can get on their email list and they send out frequent emails on what's new and suggestions on movies. A bit of advert on their part but not unwelcome as I have downloaded a few of their recommendations.

Note that the Disc Vault does not yet work with the Strato, but I am told it is coming this Summer. 

================== 

Now to the question at hand:

Using the IP interface click the Settings button and then on the page that comes up click the Settings button at the bottom.

The top section of the setup menu is called "Select Video Behavior." There are three options (I list them the way I prefer to think about them and then note how they are listed):

Single output resolution and vertical rate:
(Called "Minimize display mode changes (default)") This outputs at the resolution selected by the user in the following section ("Select Video Resolution") for video (and OSD) at 60 Hertz (at least in the USA, but it probably selects 50 Hertz elsewhere as appropriate). For 24p movies the output remains at 60 Hertz.

Single resolution, allow vertical rate changes:
(Called "Allow display mode changes"). This outputs at the resolution selected by the user in the following section ("Select Video Resolution") for video and OSD at 60 Hertz (at least in the USA, but it probably selects 50 Hertz elsewhere as appropriate). For 24p movies the output changes to 24 Hertz.

Native Rate:
(Called "Allow display mode changes (external scaler)"). This outputs at the source resolution and rate.

===== 

If you have a TV/Projector with very long mode change "lock on" times, the first option can work as the Radiance Pro will not have to restart the output if the input is switched or the rate changes (between 24 and 60), and so you avoid the long lock times intrinsic in some TVs/Projectors.

I recommend the "Native Rate" option for most systems. This also matches your request for the Radiance Pro to do the scaling. When you select this option the "Select Video Resolution" section changes to apply only to the OSD output resolution. It will output the OSD at 60 Hertz (in USA. Can be changed in the following section called "PAL Display Support"). I recommend selecting "Use Highest available, up to 2160p (default)" for the OSD since I believe the Strato generates the graphics at the output resolution in this case.

At the bottom of the page is a "Show Advanced Settings" link. These can be left at default.


----------



## SJHT

Thanks Jim for the info! This really will help get me going with this product. SJ


----------



## roxiedog13

Nudgiator said:


> Which input signal do you use? 1080i50???


Checking last night the input is 1080 24 and out is 4K 24 . 

Now that the feed to my Sony VW600 is 4K it looses the 4K upscale and motion control options. I understand the 4K but why loose the motion control options?


----------



## Nudgiator

roxiedog13 said:


> Checking last night the input is 1080 24 and out is 4K 24 .


Which artifacts do you see then?



> Now that the feed to my Sony VW600 is 4K it looses the 4K upscale and motion control options. I understand the 4K but why loose the motion control options?


As far as I remember the VW600 does not support motion control for 4k.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> I recommend the "Native Rate" option for most systems. This also matches your request for the Radiance Pro to do the scaling.


The only issue I have found with the native setting is that it prevents you using the CinemaScape setting to tile the movie cover art for 2.35 screens.

To get the CinemaScape interface you appear to have to have the Strato do the scaling of 1080P content.

I don't know why this is necessary, and it would of course be much more preferable for the Radiance to perform any scaling, whilst still retaining the nice full width interface, so I have e-mailed Kal support to see if anything can be done.


----------



## SJHT

Probably a dumb question, but I have used "Auto 4" as the default for many sources. However I can never seem to select it for sources that I changed to something else and want to go back to that setting. It just disappears as an option. Is there something else I need to do to get this option back? Output 4 is my protector. Thanks. SJ

Never mind. Seems to be working with the latest firmware.


----------



## Bill DePalma

I am interested in the Strato system you are discussing. I have checked out their website but have not come across an important item, cost for a Strato.
Ballpark?


----------



## SJHT

Look at the first page or so of the Strato thread in the $20K forum. Has a list with everything. The Strato with 6TB drive is $4500. SJ


----------



## Bill DePalma

Thanks


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> We actually have here a Strato we bought for testing. I am using it frequently and really like it. I like the fact that you can pre-load movies at the full BD, or UHD, quality on the disc. Great quality, and not interruptions in the middle of a movie due to bandwidth constraints. You can get on their email list and they send out frequent emails on what's new and suggestions on movies. A bit of advert on their part but not unwelcome as I have downloaded a few of their recommendations.
> 
> Note that the Disc Vault does not yet work with the Strato, but I am told it is coming this Summer.
> 
> ==================
> 
> Now to the question at hand:
> 
> Using the IP interface click the Settings button and then on the page that comes up click the Settings button at the bottom.
> 
> The top section of the setup menu is called "Select Video Behavior." There are three options (I list them the way I prefer to think about them and then note how they are listed):
> 
> Single output resolution and vertical rate:
> (Called "Minimize display mode changes (default)") This outputs at the resolution selected by the user in the following section ("Select Video Resolution") for video (and OSD) at 60 Hertz (at least in the USA, but it probably selects 50 Hertz elsewhere as appropriate). For 24p movies the output remains at 60 Hertz.
> 
> Single resolution, allow vertical rate changes:
> (Called "Allow display mode changes"). This outputs at the resolution selected by the user in the following section ("Select Video Resolution") for video and OSD at 60 Hertz (at least in the USA, but it probably selects 50 Hertz elsewhere as appropriate). For 24p movies the output changes to 24 Hertz.
> 
> Native Rate:
> (Called "Allow display mode changes (external scaler)"). This outputs at the source resolution and rate.
> 
> =====
> 
> If you have a TV/Projector with very long mode change "lock on" times, the first option can work as the Radiance Pro will not have to restart the output if the input is switched or the rate changes (between 24 and 60), and so you avoid the long lock times intrinsic in some TVs/Projectors.
> 
> I recommend the "Native Rate" option for most systems. This also matches your request for the Radiance Pro to do the scaling. When you select this option the "Select Video Resolution" section changes to apply only to the OSD output resolution. It will output the OSD at 60 Hertz (in USA. Can be changed in the following section called "PAL Display Support"). I recommend selecting "Use Highest available, up to 2160p (default)" for the OSD since I believe the Strato generates the graphics at the output resolution in this case.
> 
> At the bottom of the page is a "Show Advanced Settings" link. These can be left at default.


This worked well until I updated to the latest firmware today. Was several behind. Now when ever I select a movie or go back to the menu on the Strato it requires me to power the pro on and off. Audio comes through but no picture until I restart. Thanks. SJ


----------



## SJHT

I will try a boot mode update as previously suggested. SJ


----------



## JFR0317

SJHT said:


> This worked well until I updated to the latest firmware today. Was several behind. Now when ever I select a movie or go back to the menu on the Strato it requires me to power the pro on and off. Audio comes through but no picture until I restart. Thanks. SJ


I did not have the same issues as you did with the latest firmware, but I did have streaking and tearing problems from all of my sources, including my Strato. I reverted to the 052116 firmware, and it seems to be working OK now.


----------



## SJHT

Thanks. I will load that as doing the boot load didn't solve the issues. Also having audio drops with the latest firmware. I also did see the some of the streaking and tearing. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> This worked well until I updated to the latest firmware today. Was several behind. Now when ever I select a movie or go back to the menu on the Strato it requires me to power the pro on and off. Audio comes through but no picture until I restart. Thanks. SJ


There seems to be an FPGA issue in 052516 for a few systems. Please revert to 052116. We are working on another update to resolve the FPGA issue. The FPGA tools are not perfect and this is a case of the tools saying the FPGA load meets timing, but then it does not in some systems.


----------



## SJHT

The last version I was on was 012116 as we have had a several month remodel going on in our home including our theater. 052116 is worse as I can get no picture at all even though my projector is receiving the signal. I will go back to the old firmware I was on to see if I can get back up and running. SJ

All works again on this older version for me.... 

One other thing is the picture was really jerky on panning shots like in the beginning of Elysium. I thought it was the Strato but going back to the old firmware on the pro has fixed that as well.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> There seems to be an FPGA issue in 052516 for a few systems. Please revert to 052116. We are working on another update to resolve the FPGA issue. The FPGA tools are not perfect and this is a case of the tools saying the FPGA load meets timing, but then it does not in some systems.


Not sure what you mean by some systems? Are you talking about our individual pro models or our whole systems? Assuming the later, I'm running my pro from various sources into a JVC RS600 projector. The last two firmwares do not work well for my system. The old one is rock solid which I mentioned. Hope this helps with the analysis. SJ


----------



## Dartel

*Beginner HT enthusist interested in Lumagen*

Hi folks I am a total newbie in the HT arena I actually joined AVS in 2004 when I was dreaming of a Electrohome Marquee CRT Projector (Never got due to the thought of all that weight hanging over my head terrified me) So at this time I do not have a fancy projector set up though I dream of a 100'+ screen when I eventually buy/build my dream home in Arizona someday LOL.

That said I currently have a Panasonic TC-P58VT25 and am looking into a LG 4K OLED once prices drop. I dabbled in calibrating my own Computer Monitors and TV with ChromaPure and X-Rite i1 Pro and iDisplay 3.

I was wondering about the 4913 point (17x17x17) CMS autocalibrate feature on the Lumagen setup and which one to get for 4K ( I think the 4444 or 4446 will be more than enough inputs to handle my now and future needs). I do not understand what the full 3D LUT HDCP 2.2 color processing at 4K UHD or 3D LUT color calibration (4913 colors) is but I think using the auto calibrate feature might be better than my beginning knowledge at calibration can do and cheaper in the long run than paying a professional Calibrator to come out, and will grow with me as I upgrade to 4K and eventually Projection system.

Is this overkill? More than I need or more complicated than I can handle to setup? any suggestions welcomed.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Dartel said:


> Hi folks I am a total newbie in the HT arena I actually joined AVS in 2004 when I was dreaming of a Electrohome Marquee CRT Projector (Never got due to the thought of all that weight hanging over my head terrified me) So at this time I do not have a fancy projector set up though I dream of a 100'+ screen when I eventually buy/build my dream home in Arizona someday LOL.
> 
> That said I currently have a Panasonic TC-P58VT25 and am looking into a LG 4K OLED once prices drop. I dabbled in calibrating my own Computer Monitors and TV with ChromaPure and X-Rite i1 Pro and iDisplay 3.
> 
> I was wondering about the 4913 point (17x17x17) CMS autocalibrate feature on the Lumagen setup and which one to get for 4K ( I think the 4444 or 4446 will be more than enough inputs to handle my now and future needs). I do not understand what the full 3D LUT HDCP 2.2 color processing at 4K UHD or 3D LUT color calibration (4913 colors) is but I think using the auto calibrate feature might be better than my beginning knowledge at calibration can do and cheaper in the long run than paying a professional Calibrator to come out, and will grow with me as I upgrade to 4K and eventually Projection system.
> 
> Is this overkill? More than I need or more complicated than I can handle to setup? any suggestions welcomed.


The LUT in the Pro is simple to use with any of the automated calibration tools. It is certainly not overkill and it will undoubtedly make the image more accurate on an LG OLED. The Pro models are modular internally so you can actually start with a 444x unit with as many inputs as you need now, then, should you add more sources, you could in theory just buy more inputs modules until the hardware is "full" as it were. Each module is a dual hdmi board. So you add two inputs at a time.


----------



## p5browne

This update has been problematic--use 052116 instead
Re: Beta 052516-


----------



## BakeApples

My current setup looks like this:

Sony VW1100 projector (non-HDR, limited to 10.2Gbps ports, supports P3 colorspace)
Lumagen Radiance Pro 4440
Pioneer SC-LX89 AVR (HDMI 2.0a with HDR passthrough)

Havn't decided which UHD player to get but it leans towards the future Oppo or possibly Sony player not yet announced.

My hope is to be able to utilize the wider color space on my projector and send UHD SDR BT2020 from the player going via the Pro. I assume the 2020 gamut needs to be remapped to the P3 and this is what my question relates to,

Will the Pro be able to do this remapping?
Can this be done after the HDR software for the Pro is released?
Will the integral still be needed for this to work?


----------



## RS3771

Note that the Disc Vault does not yet work with the Strato, but I am told it is coming this Summer. 
Sound and Vision (they sell Strato) tells me "DV700 allows for playback of the physical Blu-Ray or DVD loaded through your Strato?"
==================


----------



## Dartel

Gordon Fraser said:


> The LUT in the Pro is simple to use with any of the automated calibration tools. It is certainly not overkill and it will undoubtedly make the image more accurate on an LG OLED. The Pro models are modular internally so you can actually start with a 444x unit with as many inputs as you need now, then, should you add more sources, you could in theory just buy more inputs modules until the hardware is "full" as it were. Each module is a dual hdmi board. So you add two inputs at a time.


Oh that is wonderful news. Now I know the 444x is the 4K input/output version, will it still help my 1080p Plasma? And can I have 2 tv's hooked up in different rooms somehow?


----------



## sillysally

Gordon Fraser said:


> The LUT in the Pro is simple to use with any of the automated calibration tools. It is certainly not overkill and it will undoubtedly make the image more accurate on an LG OLED. The Pro models are modular internally so you can actually start with a 444x unit with as many inputs as you need now, then, should you add more sources, you could in theory just buy more inputs modules until the hardware is "full" as it were. Each module is a dual hdmi board. So you add two inputs at a time.


You seem to know a lot about the new 18gig boards.

Are we close to getting them???



Dartel said:


> Oh that is wonderful news. Now I know the 444x is the 4K input/output version, will it still help my 1080p Plasma? And can I have 2 tv's hooked up in different rooms somehow?


Yes the 444X when using a properly done 17x3 profile/3DLUT, should help with your Plasma for 1080P. 

Yes you can have two displays using the same HDMI input with different HDMI out ports. However you will only be able to use the same 3DLUT, if viewing displays at the same time.

Remember the Pro 444X is still very much in its Beta stage, and the way things are going with these new beta updates it may be a long time before the Pro is preforming as advertised. 

ss


----------



## Gordon Fraser

BakeApples said:


> My current setup looks like this:
> 
> Sony VW1100 projector (non-HDR, limited to 10.2Gbps ports, supports P3 colorspace)
> Lumagen Radiance Pro 4440
> Pioneer SC-LX89 AVR (HDMI 2.0a with HDR passthrough)
> 
> My hope is to be able to utilize the wider color space on my projector and send UHD SDR BT2020 from the player going via the Pro. I assume the 2020 gamut needs to be remapped to the P3 and this is what my question relates to,
> 
> Will the Pro be able to do this remapping?
> Can this be done after the HDR software for the Pro is released?
> Will the integral still be needed for this to work?


Will the pro do this remapping. Yes, presuming you have the tools to create the LUT required.
It can actually be done right now if you have an UHD player that can do the HDR to SDR part but if you want the Lumagen to do the HDR to SDR then you will need firmware that supports that and lumagen are working on it.
Will the integral be needed....no.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

sillysally said:


> You seem to know a lot about the new 18gig boards.
> 
> Are we close to getting them???
> 
> s


I don't think i actually mentioned 18Ghz boards at all. My comment was about any HDMI i/o boards for Radiance Pro. You'd need to ask Jim about timeline for that hardware.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Not sure what you mean by some systems? Are you talking about our individual pro models or our whole systems? Assuming the later, I'm running my pro from various sources into a JVC RS600 projector. The last two firmwares do not work well for my system. The old one is rock solid which I mentioned. Hope this helps with the analysis. SJ


Your experience is consistent with what some others (more than we originally thought) were seeing. That is why we pulled 052516 from the website.

The "some systems" related mostly to the Radiance Pro internal FPGA. The 052516 had FPGA issues - even though the FPGA tools said it would be a good release.

Patrick has worked to improve the design so the timing for the design works better with the FPGA tools. The latest release (060616) has the improved FPGA plus some additional bug fixes, including some improvements for input switching and for output rate changes.

As always if you load 060616 and do have issues, please try to figure out how to reproduce them and let us know. However, we believe 060616 is a much improved release verses 052516. So hopefully it works well for everyone.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 060616- Includes all improvements and changes in 052516 with some bug fixes and small speed up for some cases of input switching. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

p5browne said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> Beta 060616- Includes all improvements and changes in 052516 with some bug fixes and small speed up for some cases of input switching. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I had skipped a few updates and tried to upload this today.
Computer couldn't interface with RadiancePro.
I got the popup message about powering off/on via the power adapter and that didn't work.
Anything else?

Mike


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Your experience is consistent with what some others (more than we originally thought) were seeing. That is why we pulled 052516 from the website.
> 
> The "some systems" related mostly to the Radiance Pro internal FPGA. The 052516 had FPGA issues - even though the FPGA tools said it would be a good release.
> 
> Patrick has worked to improve the design so the timing for the design works better with the FPGA tools. The latest release (060616) has the improved FPGA plus some additional bug fixes, including some improvements for input switching and for output rate changes.
> 
> As always if you load 060616 and do have issues, please try to figure out how to reproduce them and let us know. However, we believe 060616 is a much improved release verses 052516. So hopefully it works well for everyone.


The latest firmware seems fairly solid with my brief test. I did notice when playing a 4K 24hz movie from my Strato that the screen would flash white (like syncing, but would not lose HDMI lock) every 2-3 minutes. Turning Genlock off (was set to Auto24)seems to have removed the issue. Will check some more sources. Thanks. SJ


----------



## p5browne

Mike_WI said:


> I had skipped a few updates and tried to upload this today.
> Computer couldn't interface with RadiancePro.
> I got the popup message about powering off/on via the power adapter and that didn't work.
> Anything else?
> 
> Mike


Correct Com Port selected? The odd time, on boot up. MS will change the Port #.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 060616 Update Troubleshooting*



Mike_WI said:


> I had skipped a few updates and tried to upload this today.
> Computer couldn't interface with RadiancePro.
> I got the popup message about powering off/on via the power adapter and that didn't work.
> Anything else?
> 
> Mike





p5browne said:


> Correct Com Port selected? The odd time, on boot up. MS will change the Port #.


I tried the following and it appeared to work now:

1. Laptop plugged in (was at 100% power prior, so wasn't sure how/if this matters)
2. Laptop rebooted
3. Cycle through COM ports

The prior COM3 selection changed to COM4. Not sure why.

Anyway, looks like that worked.

I appreciate the rapid AVS and Lumagen IT support.

Thanks,

Mike


----------



## thrang

After the latest update, the Pro only outputs pcm stereo audio from any input. Did A factory reset it, and there's no change in the condition. I did the reset from the OSD.

Output is from output 4 from the Pro to a Marantz 8802. Nothing has changed in this regard.

If I connect my sources directly to the Marantz, multichannel audio plays as expected. Any ideas here?


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> After the latest update, the Pro only outputs pcm stereo audio from any input. Did A factory reset it, and there's no change in the condition. I did the reset from the OSD.
> 
> Output is from output 4 from the Pro to a Marantz 8802. Nothing has changed in this regard.
> 
> If I connect my sources directly to the Marantz, multichannel audio plays as expected. Any ideas here?


thrang:

I think it was you we answered about this by email. So this is more for others reading this thread.

The EDID from the device on the Radiance Pro Output 1 is used to determine Audio Modes that are supported. So with the AVR on output 4, there is no device on Output 1 and so the Pro defaults to the minimum which is PCM 2 channel.

As I mentioned in the email there is a way to manually set up to have the Radiance Pro report all audio formats in its EDID back to the sources. This will allow you to use output 4 for both audio and video. I actually use this manual override in my home system as it means the Radiance can report all the audio modes in its EDID even if the audio processor is off.

If anyone wants to use the manual EDID to report all audio modes for the Radiance Pro EDID back to sources do the following:

Enter MENU 0943
Do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK)


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> thrang:
> 
> I think it was you we answered about this by email. So this is more for others reading this thread.
> 
> The EDID from the device on the Radiance Pro Output 1 is used to determine Audio Modes that are supported. So with the AVR on output 4, there is no device on Output 1 and so the Pro defaults to the minimum which is PCM 2 channel.
> 
> As I mentioned in the email there is a way to manually set up to have the Radiance Pro report all audio formats in its EDID back to the sources. This will allow you to use output 4 for both audio and video. I actually use this manual override in my home system as it means the Radiance can report all the audio modes in its EDID even if the audio processor is off.
> 
> If anyone wants to use the manual EDID to report all audio modes for the Radiance Pro EDID back to sources do the following:
> 
> Enter MENU 0943
> Do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK)


Thanks for pointing this out. I don't think it's in the most recent manual (040116) as a topic or under the section on commands.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> We actually have here a Strato we bought for testing. I am using it frequently and really like it. I like the fact that you can pre-load movies at the full BD, or UHD, quality on the disc. Great quality, and not interruptions in the middle of a movie due to bandwidth constraints. You can get on their email list and they send out frequent emails on what's new and suggestions on movies. A bit of advert on their part but not unwelcome as I have downloaded a few of their recommendations.
> 
> Note that the Disc Vault does not yet work with the Strato, but I am told it is coming this Summer.
> 
> ==================
> 
> Now to the question at hand:
> 
> Using the IP interface click the Settings button and then on the page that comes up click the Settings button at the bottom.
> 
> The top section of the setup menu is called "Select Video Behavior." There are three options (I list them the way I prefer to think about them and then note how they are listed):
> 
> Single output resolution and vertical rate:
> (Called "Minimize display mode changes (default)") This outputs at the resolution selected by the user in the following section ("Select Video Resolution") for video (and OSD) at 60 Hertz (at least in the USA, but it probably selects 50 Hertz elsewhere as appropriate). For 24p movies the output remains at 60 Hertz.
> 
> Single resolution, allow vertical rate changes:
> (Called "Allow display mode changes"). This outputs at the resolution selected by the user in the following section ("Select Video Resolution") for video and OSD at 60 Hertz (at least in the USA, but it probably selects 50 Hertz elsewhere as appropriate). For 24p movies the output changes to 24 Hertz.
> 
> Native Rate:
> (Called "Allow display mode changes (external scaler)"). This outputs at the source resolution and rate.
> 
> =====
> 
> If you have a TV/Projector with very long mode change "lock on" times, the first option can work as the Radiance Pro will not have to restart the output if the input is switched or the rate changes (between 24 and 60), and so you avoid the long lock times intrinsic in some TVs/Projectors.
> 
> I recommend the "Native Rate" option for most systems. This also matches your request for the Radiance Pro to do the scaling. When you select this option the "Select Video Resolution" section changes to apply only to the OSD output resolution. It will output the OSD at 60 Hertz (in USA. Can be changed in the following section called "PAL Display Support"). I recommend selecting "Use Highest available, up to 2160p (default)" for the OSD since I believe the Strato generates the graphics at the output resolution in this case.
> 
> At the bottom of the page is a "Show Advanced Settings" link. These can be left at default.


Jim, Are you getting the dealer access to test HDR with the Strato that is currently available? My setup would be easier to run HDR when released if the Pro could handle at some point vs going directly to my projector. Thanks. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Jim, Are you getting the dealer access to test HDR with the Strato that is currently available? My setup would be easier to run HDR when released if the Pro could handle at some point vs going directly to my projector. Thanks. SJ


We are working on HDR with a different device, but will be getting the Strato HDR software soon to test with. 

Still a ways out from an HDR release though. I hesitate to give a date as in the past I have underestimated the complexity of getting Rec 2020 and HDR into the software. This is not a schedule but I am hopeful the first HDR release will be by the end of July.


----------



## LJG

Hi Jim:

I am just wondering if you could discuss in general terms what features will be implemented when HDR is fully released with the Pro?


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> Hi Jim:
> 
> I am just wondering if you could discuss in general terms what features will be implemented when HDR is fully released with the Pro?


We do not have a complete list for HDR yet.

Like the Rec 2020, the Pro will detect HDR and/or 2020 and choose a use specified 3D LUT. So there can be a 3D LUT loaded from calibration software for Rec 709 and then for HDR/2020. Since it appears all HDR material is also Rec 2020, and we do not see any Rec 2020 material that is not also HDR, they select the same 3D LUT.

The "Auto" case reports HDR and/or Rec 2020 if the downstream TV/projector reports it/them. 

You will be able to tell the Radiance Pro to not report HDR in its EDID back to sources even if the downstream TV/projector report them. Some people already say they plan to use the Pro to report back EDID as HDR to the Sources, and not send the HDR info frame to their TV/projector so they can calibrate their TV/Projector for HDR, but in non-HDR mode. This is because they don't like what their TV/projector does in HDR mode.

You can have the Pro EDID back to sources report that the Pro is HDR and Rec 2020 capable even if the TV/Projector does not report them. This allows a older "Rec 709" only TV/projector to be calibrated to the best of its capability for HDR and Rec 2020 sources. To get a correct image you will need to calibrate. This actually requires work from the calibration software vendors and this work has not been done yet.

As part of calibration you will likely be able to clip the source to the maximum brightness of your TV/projector. The goal is that for any pixel up to the maximum brightness of your TV/projector the pixel will match a calibrated true HDR TV/projector.

As part of calibration you will be able to tune a Rec 709 TV/projectors Gamma to match the HDR Gamma to the best of its ability.

By opening up the Gamut of a non-HDR, non-Rec2020, TV/projector, HDR/Rec2020 material will look better than the Rec 709 equivalent. Since many current Rec 709 TVs and projectors have a gamut near P3 (DCI) and a brightness that can exceed the normal Rec 709 range, this can breath new life into current TVs and projectors.

We are still in the early phase of HDR development and will be considering new features for HDR and Rec2020 over time. For example, initially we plan to support the static HDR info frame but not the dynamic HDR info frame. This may change.

====

NOTE: None of the current releases of calibration software will work properly with the Rec 2020 mode, or once we have HDR, the HDR/Rec2020 mode, due to changes in the the Radiance Pro pipeline for these new modes. The software runs but does not calibrate the expected points and so you do not get a good calibration. We are working with the calibration software companies to try to get the HDR and Rec 2020 modes working with the calibration software, but it is up to the software companies to make time to do this.


----------



## p5browne

Confuscious say: Hard to nail something down, when what you're trying to nail down, keeps moving!


----------



## stanger89

p5browne said:


> Confuscious say: Hard to nail something down, when what you're trying to nail down, keeps moving!


Sphynx say: When you balance a tack hammer upon your head you will head off your foes with a balanced attack.﻿


----------



## LJG

Is anyone experiencing audio issues with Roku 4 and last Radiance update? I am not able to get any HDMI audio from the Roku. All other sources bit stream perfectly


----------



## netroamer

LJG said:


> Is anyone experiencing audio issues with Roku 4 and last Radiance update? I am not able to get any HDMI audio from the Roku. All other sources bit stream perfectly


Absolutely, including image shifting when the audio jumps in and out. I have been corresponding with Jim P for a couple of days. I have performed all the diagnostics, switching inputs did nothing, routing the Roku directly to my VW5000 showed no issues. A reload of 0606 did not correct. Earlier today, I asked Jim which update should I rollback too, to prove if it a 0606 issue. He suggested 0406. I tried it twice since and the Roku is rock solid. However the 0406 input switching is a nightmare. Jim said their Roku has showed no issues.
Try switching the output resolution of the Roku from 4k to 1080p. I'm confident that will correct the issue for now.


----------



## LJG

Thanks John. I was thinking it was the 6.06 update


----------



## netroamer

LJG said:


> Thanks John. I was thinking it was the 6.06 update


Has your Roku been updated to 7.20?


----------



## LJG

I checked last night if there was an available update and it said I had the latest software. I did not note the version.


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> PiP/PoP is a ways out. Perhaps end of Q1 or early Q2.





p5browne said:


> Confuscious say: Hard to nail something down, when what you're trying to nail down, keeps moving!


I get that HDR is the shiny new thing. But it is a moving target and it would seem like it might make sense to spend more time on it after it is more set in stone. Some of the other items like PiP, are not a moving target and it would be nice to see some progress on them. Just saying.


----------



## jrp

turls said:


> I get that HDR is the shiny new thing. But it is a moving target and it would seem like it might make sense to spend more time on it after it is more set in stone. Some of the other items like PiP, are not a moving target and it would be nice to see some progress on them. Just saying.


Certainly a valid question. Here are some of my thoughts on the reasoning of our decision to prioritize HDR.

The vast majority of Radiance Pro customers want HDR support and want it as soon as we can get it done. I am answering questions on HDR and HDR schedule on a daily basis.

Only a small percentage of Radiance Pro 444X owners care much about PiP/PoP from our discussions with the installed base. An indicator is that PiP/PoP comes up as a request infrequently. Of course those that want PiP/PoP are very vocal about it being very important to their theater.

Deinterlacing is working and for most is providing good results. We do plan to do something akin to diagonal-filtering for sports in a future release. This will mostly be for SD sports and few Pro owners watch SD sports at this point. So this too is a lower priority.

There are unimplemented menu items, but these tend to be to deal with exception cases. These cases are much less common than when the older Radiance models were introduced and so at lower priority.

Pipeline precision for the Pro is already better than the older Radiance models. So while we plan additional pipeline improvements, these are judged as lower priority.

Some are asking for "Virtual Inputs" like in the older Radiance models. While this is not a high priority for us, I believe we will get to this sooner than some other features since it is not a huge effort.

Other features are on the list as well and we will get things done in the order we, and our customers, believe is best. So, if you really need a feature please email us at [email protected] and let us know, and include your reasoning why it should be prioritized. We definitely listen, and it might change our priority as has happened in the past.

I hope this provides some insight into our decision process.

======================== 

Some notes on HDR:

I don't consider HDR so much of a moving target as just a complicated target. The HDR10 spec has been published as has the implementation documentation for HDMI.

There are lots of details in the implementation to grasp and implement. For example, the Radiance Pro will start by implementing static HDR info frames and not dynamic info frames.

A Radiance Pro implementation detail is that the first HDR releases will focus on driving HDR TVs and projectors. 

Later we focus more on reporting HDR to sources when using a non-HDR TV/projector and calibrate them to do their best for Rec 2020 color Gamut and brighter highlights than Rec 709 is capable of. This is actually going to be in the early HDR software, but we will need to add more details and work with calibration software companies to make this practical.

====

Radiance Pro HDR status:

I am pleased to announce that we are close to the initial HDR release. We should be posting the HDR release in approximately two weeks. Before all we had was a guesstimate. However, we now have HDR working through the Radiance Pro from a Samsung UHD player to a Sony HDR TV including accepting and outputting HDR Info Frames. This is a major milestone, and we are estimating it will be about two weeks until we have this in the software in an update.

Pro owners with the Panasonic UHD player, or a Kaleidescape Strato (if you have access to the HDR demo movie which I believe is only available to Kaleidescape dealers at this time) will be able to use HDR once the HDR release is posted.

As some of you have already surmised, this means we have the 18 GHz input card prototype working in the lab. We are revising the 18 GHz input card and expect to have initial production boards to sell at the end of August if all goes well. This will allow Samsung UHD player owners to view HDR material through the Pro.


----------



## p5browne

With all these new improvements, and experiences, has there been any that can, or will get passed down to legacy units? Or are the current FW updates, end of the line? (Like giving viagra to seniors!)


----------



## tspotorno

Great News Jim!

Couple of followup questions:

1. Will the 18gig cards be user replaceable? Or will we have to send our unit back for service?

2. You probably would have listed the price, but no harm in asking. How much will the new cards cost? 

Thanks.


----------



## jrp

p5browne said:


> With all these new improvements, and experiences, has there been any that can, or will get passed down to legacy units? Or are the current FW updates, end of the line? (Like giving viagra to seniors!)


The current (non-Pro) Radiance units cannot be updated to support 4k sources.

It is unlikely they will get updates for either Rec 2020 or HDR since these are 4k centric features.

For non-Pro units (except the 21XX models) the FPGA is already full, so they will not be getting any algorithm improvements. 

While we do not have plans for any FPGA algorithm improvements for the 21XX units, there is some room in the FPGA. So I cannot rule out some future enhancements for the 21XX units. But again, none are planned.


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> Deinterlacing is working and for most is providing good results. We do plan to do something akin to diagonal-filtering for sports in a future release. This will mostly be for SD sports and few Pro owners watch SD sports at this point. So this too is a lower priority.


Well, maybe for the users from the US the current implementation of the deinterlacing is providing good results, but unfortunately not for the users from europe like me. We are using nearly always 1080i50, so HD and not SD. The problem with that: there are flickering lines on top and bottom, sparkles inside of ticker lines, jaggies in camera moves etc. That's more than annoying especially when there have nevere been any problems with that with my older 21xx. But I know that HDR is on top of the priority list and I accept that. 



> As some of you have already surmised, this means we have the 18 GHz input card prototype working in the lab. We are revising the 18 GHz input card and expect to have initial production boards to sell at the end of August if all goes well. This will allow Samsung UHD player owners to view HDR material through the Pro.


I do not understand the correlation between 18 GHz boards and the K8500? ALL UHDs are currently 24p or do you think about [email protected]/[email protected] Bit? A short explanation would be nice 

Another thing: you only speak about "input boards" ... what's about 18 GHz "output boards"?


----------



## sillysally

tspotorno said:


> Great News Jim!
> 
> Couple of followup questions:
> 
> 1. Will the 18gig cards be user replaceable? Or will we have to send our unit back for service?
> 
> 2. You probably would have listed the price, but no harm in asking. How much will the new cards cost?
> 
> Thanks.


From what Jim told me, is that I can swap out HDMI cards myself.
Also the Pro 444X is like a PC from Dell, you can upgrade most hardware in the Pro 444X easily. 
*Please correct me Jim if I am wrong.*

Don't know about the price of the HDMI boards, I have my 18 gig boards included in the price when I ordered my Pro 4444.

ss


----------



## Mark_H

Nudgiator said:


> Well, maybe for the users from the US the current implementation of the deinterlacing is providing good results, but unfortunately not for the users from europe like me. We are using nearly always 1080i50, so HD and not SD. The problem with that: there are flickering lines on top and bottom, sparkles inside of ticker lines, jaggies in camera moves etc. That's more than annoying especially when there have nevere been any problems with that with my older 21xx. But I know that HDR is on top of the priority list and I accept that.


I want to second this. SKY HD in the UK is 1080i, and the deinterlacing has lots of nastiness in the image that shouldn't be there. Would like to see improvements here as this is the biggest source of video through my TV Pro and looks the worst...

But, HDR first please


----------



## jrp

tspotorno said:


> Great News Jim!
> 
> Couple of followup questions:
> 
> 1. Will the 18gig cards be user replaceable? Or will we have to send our unit back for service?
> 
> 2. You probably would have listed the price, but no harm in asking. How much will the new cards cost?


1. If you are comfortable with a screw driver and have just a bit of mechanical skill you can replace them yourself. We can do the replacement for those who are not comfortable doing it themselves.

2. The retail on the 18 GHz input (and when available output) is $400. However, we are doing a special upgrade program. If you contact us and trade in a 9 GHz input card the cost will be $200 plus shipping.


----------



## jrp

Nudgiator:

The Samsung UHD player only outputting in 4:4:4 is why the 18 GHz card was relevant in my post of HDR status. I think this is a mistake as it requires > 9 GHz for 24p HDR movies when if they choose instead to output the HDR UHD as 4:2:2 (as Panasonic and Kaleidescape do) it would only require 9 GHz for 24p movies and programs and give you 12-bit at a higher resolution Chroma than the source material.

18 GHz output boards are a ways out but much less critical than input boards since the Pro will output 4k24 as 4:2:2 12-bit with 9 GHz cards. Since the vast majority of HDR material will be 24p for some time, this puts the 18 GHz output as a lower priority and we will get to these as soon as we can.

All:

As I said we have plans for deinterlacing improvements. They are lower priority than HDR and some other things. I think I clearly called this out in my post. You can use a different deinterlacer for now (perhaps in the source device) if desired. For actual video (IMO) it already works very well. There is work to do on a "diagonal filter" and computer generated text an we will get to these as soon as we can.


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> 2. The retail on the 18 GHz input (and when available output) is $400. However, we are doing a special upgrade program. If you contact us and trade in a 9 GHz input card the cost will be $200 plus shipping.


Is that special upgrade program time-limited?


----------



## tspotorno

jrp said:


> 1. If you are comfortable with a screw driver and have just a bit of mechanical skill you can replace them yourself. We can do the replacement for those who are not comfortable doing it themselves.
> 
> 2. The retail on the 18 GHz input (and when available output) is $400. However, we are doing a special upgrade program. If you contact us and trade in a 9 GHz input card the cost will be $200 plus shipping.



Great news. Just let us know when we can start the preorder process.

Thanks again.

Tony


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> I am pleased to announce that we are close to the initial HDR release. We should be posting the HDR release in approximately two weeks.


Will "_*Rec.2020, No HDR*_" be a valid output config after the update? If so, will the Radiance Pro tone map HDR to SDR, or just clip the luminance at 100 nits?




jrp said:


> The retail on the 18 GHz input (and when available output) is $400. However, we are doing a special upgrade program. If you contact us and trade in a 9 GHz input card the cost will be $200 plus shipping.


Expected timeframe?


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> 1. If you are comfortable with a screw driver and have just a bit of mechanical skill you can replace them yourself. We can do the replacement for those who are not comfortable doing it themselves.
> 
> 2. The retail on the 18 GHz input (and when available output) is $400. However, we are doing a special upgrade program. If you contact us and trade in a 9 GHz input card the cost will be $200 plus shipping.


Please get out an email with ordering details to all current owners of the Radiance Pro. I'm pretty certain most of us are eager to install the 18 GHz input board when it becomes available. 

Does each individual input device, which is capable of sending HDR, would require its own separate board? Each in its own slot on the board? Or is it a non-externally accessible board offering support for all input devices?


----------



## Chris5

Just for the record Jim, I have no interest in HDR. Deinterlacing, particularly of 50hz DVD TV shows e.g. 'Morse' is very poor, when credits roll vertically you get sparklies all over the text - a bit like the effect you get with b&w photocopy scans of grey scale text- you get blocky effects on character extenders etc. 

Also I'm fed up of spending 10 minutes getting my sky box up and running every time I switch the pro on, either the wrong colour space is selected, or the bottom half of the screen is just Random noise, or just a blank screen. Powering off the pro is usually the only way to fix this. I raised this problem 6 months ago with you and Gordon and just got blanked by you claiming there is no problem. And yes I did buy a new set of long hdmi's as you suggested with no improvement.

Fan noise. Why after a years worth of software updates have you divided the fan logic needed changing so now I get continuous noise when there was non before the recent change.
All in all not happy.

Please do not get pulled into the can-of-worms that is HDR for too long!


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> Nudgiator:
> 
> The Samsung UHD player only outputting in 4:4:4 is why the 18 GHz card was relevant in my post of HDR status. I think this is a mistake as it requires > 9 GHz for 24p HDR movies when if they choose instead to output the HDR UHD as 4:2:2 (as Panasonic and Kaleidescape do) it would only require 9 GHz for 24p movies and programs and give you 12-bit at a higher resolution Chroma than the source material.
> 
> 18 GHz output boards are a ways out but much less critical than input boards since the Pro will output 4k24 as 4:2:2 12-bit with 9 GHz cards. Since the vast majority of HDR material will be 24p for some time, this puts the 18 GHz output as a lower priority and we will get to these as soon as we can.
> 
> All:
> 
> As I said we have plans for deinterlacing improvements. They are lower priority than HDR and some other things. I think I clearly called this out in my post. You can use a different deinterlacer for now (perhaps in the source device) if desired. For actual video (IMO) it already works very well. There is work to do on a "diagonal filter" and computer generated text an we will get to these as soon as we can.





Nudgiator said:


> Is that special upgrade program time-limited?


Same question.
I don't have a 4K source or projector yet, so not a priority, but want to future proof and likely install this fall/winter.
Can you clarify input/output boards.
I suspect I'm not the only one unclear on that.

jrp - Thanks for all of the recent posts.

Mike


----------



## sneill

Chris5 said:


> Just for the record Jim, I have no interest in HDR. Deinterlacing, particularly of 50hz DVD TV shows e.g. 'Morse' is very poor, when credits roll vertically you get sparklies all over the text - a bit like the effect you get with b&w photocopy scans of grey scale text- you get blocky effects on character extenders etc.
> 
> Also I'm fed up of spending 10 minutes getting my sky box up and running every time I switch the pro on, either the wrong colour space is selected, or the bottom half of the screen is just Random noise, or just a blank screen. Powering off the pro is usually the only way to fix this. I raised this problem 6 months ago with you and Gordon and just got blanked by you claiming there is no problem. And yes I did buy a new set of long hdmi's as you suggested with no improvement.
> 
> Fan noise. Why after a years worth of software updates have you divided the fan logic needed changing so now I get continuous noise when there was non before the recent change.
> All in all not happy.
> 
> Please do not get pulled into the can-of-worms that is HDR for too long!


 

Hi Chris,

I’m experiencing the exact same problem when I power on my LumagenPro 4240 and display (JVC X5000 / Fujitsu P42XHA58EB 42" Plasma)

Whilst I get no picture I can call up and display the Lumagen internal menu no problem
Is that what you’re experiencing also?

I get that split screen you mention on an intermittent basis (only on my Plasma, never on my PJ), does it look similar to the below screenshot?




Regards,
Stuart


----------



## Nudgiator

I have exactly the same problem: the lower part of the screen is distorted. When I want I can reproduce that effect every time. It's definitely a problem of the order you switch on your devices connected with the PRO. I am using a macro via my Lightmanager Air to solve that problem. Since then I have never seen that problem again. But well: I have never seen that effect with my former 2143.


----------



## jrp

Chris5 said:


> Just for the record Jim, I have no interest in HDR. Deinterlacing, particularly of 50hz DVD TV shows e.g. 'Morse' is very poor, when credits roll vertically you get sparklies all over the text - a bit like the effect you get with b&w photocopy scans of grey scale text- you get blocky effects on character extenders etc.
> 
> Also I'm fed up of spending 10 minutes getting my sky box up and running every time I switch the pro on, either the wrong colour space is selected, or the bottom half of the screen is just Random noise, or just a blank screen. Powering off the pro is usually the only way to fix this. I raised this problem 6 months ago with you and Gordon and just got blanked by you claiming there is no problem. And yes I did buy a new set of long hdmi's as you suggested with no improvement.
> 
> Fan noise. Why after a years worth of software updates have you divided the fan logic needed changing so now I get continuous noise when there was non before the recent change.
> All in all not happy.
> 
> Please do not get pulled into the can-of-worms that is HDR for too long!


Chris:
As I sent in a separate email to you, long lock times are almost 100% of the time a marginal HDMI cable issue. Buying new cable may not resolve this issue if they are no better than the ones being replaced. I have commented on your cables in my email to you.

The half vertical image issues is likely an FPGA internal Pro issue. We have seen it before but believed it to have been resolved. This could be that the update failed to compete correctly. See next paragraph.

If the fan is on full your last update did not complete correctly.You can try a Boot Mode Update as describe in the Tech Tip that comes with the update. In the past this has completed correctly and the fan behavior was fine after.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> Same question.
> I don't have a 4K source or projector yet, so not a priority, but want to future proof and likely install this fall/winter. Can you clarify input/output boards. I suspect I'm not the only one unclear on that.
> Mike


For the Pro the inputs are on dual-input cards. That is each plug-in card supports two inputs. You can replace a dual input card in the event one gets blown up (power surge, etc.) without having to replace the entire main board as has been the case with past Radiance units. A input board can also be swapped out for a 18 GHz card (coming soon).

The same is true of the output cards. They have two 9 GHz outputs currently. Once the 18 GHz card is available the 18 GHz card has one 18 GHz, and one audio-only, output. As with the input cards an output card can be swapped out in the event it gets blown or to upgrade to 18 GHz.


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> The same is true of the output cards. They have two 9 GHz outputs currently. Once the 18 GHz card is available the 18 GHz card has one 18 GHz, and one audio-only, output. As with the input cards an output card can be swapped out in the event it gets blown or to upgrade to 18 GHz.


Please, can you tell us the reason why the 18 GHz input cards support 2x 18 GHz (both= video), but the 18 GHz output cards support 1x 18 GHz video + 1x audio? Thx


----------



## jrp

Nudgiator said:


> Please, can you tell us the reason why the 18 GHz input cards support 2x 18 GHz (both= video), but the 18 GHz output cards support 1x 18 GHz video + 1x audio? Thx


The HDMI chip we use from Lattice (formerly Silicon Image) has one 18 GHz audio/video output, and one HDMI 1.4 output that can be used for audio only (but not to output HDCP 2.2 video and it is limited to 9 GHz).

This chip replaces the two 9 GHz output chips on the dual-output card.


----------



## Mike_WI

*$200/2 inputs?*



jrp said:


> For the Pro the inputs are on dual-input cards. That is each plug-in card supports two inputs. You can replace a dual input card in the event one gets blown up (power surge, etc.) without having to replace the entire main board as has been the case with past Radiance units. A input board can also be swapped out for a 18 GHz card (coming soon).
> 
> The same is true of the output cards. They have two 9 GHz outputs currently. Once the 18 GHz card is available the 18 GHz card has one 18 GHz, and one audio-only, output. As with the input cards an output card can be swapped out in the event it gets blown or to upgrade to 18 GHz.





> 1. If you are comfortable with a screw driver and have just a bit of mechanical skill you can replace them yourself. We can do the replacement for those who are not comfortable doing it themselves.
> 
> 2. The retail on the 18 GHz input (and when available output) is $400. However, we are doing a special upgrade program. If you contact us and trade in a 9 GHz input card the cost will be $200 plus shipping.


So is it $200 per 2 inputs and $200 per 1+ output?

Mike


----------



## jrp

sneill said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I’m experiencing the exact same problem when I power on my LumagenPro 4240 and display (JVC X5000 / Fujitsu P42XHA58EB 42" Plasma)
> 
> Whilst I get no picture I can call up and display the Lumagen internal menu no problem
> Is that what you’re experiencing also?
> 
> I get that split screen you mention on an intermittent basis (only on my Plasma, never on my PJ), does it look similar to the below screenshot?
> 
> Regards,
> Stuart


First, let me say that I mixed up Chris and Stuart. So, Chris the email I said I sent to you was actually sent to Stuart.

Stuart:

Concerning your comment that only the Plasma shows the half-screen issue: Are you using one Radiance Pro output for the Plasma and one for the projector? If so this points to an issue in the output chip driving the Plasma and not the FPGA as I had surmised.

If you are using one output for each, then the solution may be to replace your output card as this would indicate a marginal chip for one of the outputs. Contact Gordon and we can send him a replacement.

Chris:

If you have the same issue, and assuming Stuart is using one output for each TV/PJ, then we might need to get you a new output card as well. You can contact us at [email protected] to discuss further.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> So is it $200 per 2 inputs and $200 per 1+ output? Mike


The retail is $400 for two inputs on the 18 GHz card. The retail on the dual output card is $400 for one 18 GHz audio/video and one audio only output. 

We are giving a $200 trade credit for those turning in the respective current input or output card. So, if you are turning in the current card you have then $200 each is correct. Plus shipping.


----------



## sneill

jrp said:


> First, let me say that I mixed up Chris and Stuart. So, Chris the email I said I sent to you was actually sent to Stuart.
> 
> Stuart:
> 
> Concerning your comment that only the Plasma shows the half-screen issue: Are you using one Radiance Pro output for the Plasma and one for the projector? If so this points to an issue in the output chip driving the Plasma and not the FPGA as I had surmised.
> 
> If you are using one output for each, then the solution may be to replace your output card as this would indicate a marginal chip for one of the outputs. Contact Gordon and we can send him a replacement.
> 
> Chris:
> 
> If you have the same issue, and assuming Stuart is using one output for each TV/PJ, then we might need to get you a new output card as well. You can contact us at [email protected] to discuss further.


 
Hi Jim,


Output 1 feeds the Plasma
Ouput 2 feeds the PJ


I have never experienced the split screen effect that I inserted into post # 574 on the PJ
I very rarely get some short purple coloured horizontal lines spread randomly over the projected screen area when I power up using Ouput 2 feed to the PJ. (It looks nothing like what I see on the Plasma in the photo in post # 574)


Thanks for your separate email reply with some suggestions to try identity the source of my start up problem. I will try swap out my Ven Den Hul HDMI 1.3 cables with a HDMI4K cable to see if this fixes my recurring problem.


I will post back the results of the tests once I get a chance to experiment over the weekend.

Thanks again for the quick reply and suggestions.

Regards,
Stuart


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> The HDMI chip we use from Lattice (formerly Silicon Image) has one 18 GHz audio/video output, and one HDMI 1.4 output that can be used for audio only (but not to output HDCP 2.2 video and it is limited to 9 GHz).
> 
> This chip replaces the two 9 GHz output chips on the dual-output card.


I understand this, but ... why is is possible to use 2x 18GHz for the inputs but not for the outputs? Will there be also 2x 18 GHz output cards in the future or "only" 1x18 GHz + 1x 9GHz?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Nudgiator said:


> I understand this, but ... why is is possible to use 2x 18GHz for the inputs but not for the outputs? Will there be also 2x 18 GHz output cards in the future or "only" 1x18 GHz + 1x 9GHz?


Presumably it's a different part....the Lattice output chip design is not the same as the input chip design...


----------



## Nudgiator

OK, what I want to know: is this (18 GHz output board with 1x 18 GHz video/audio + 1x 9 GHz audio) a limitation of the Radiance Pro or of the Lattice output card? Or in other words: may it be possible in the future to use 2x 18 GHz video/audio as output card when Lattice will produce such cards?


----------



## stanger89

The way I read it is each board uses one dual-input or dual-output chip (as appropriate). The dual-input chips are 2xHDMI 2.0, and the dual-output chips are 1x HDMI 2.0 and 1x HDMI 1.4.


----------



## Nudgiator

stanger89 said:


> The way I read it is each board uses one dual-input or dual-output chip (as appropriate). The dual-input chips are 2xHDMI 2.0, and the dual-output chips are 1x HDMI 2.0 and 1x HDMI 1.4.


Yes, true ... I know that ... but please read my former posting again ... why is it not possible to produce dual output cards with 2x 18 GHz? .... AND .... could the PRO use 2x 18 GHz dual output cards LATER (when such cards will be available)?


----------



## jrp

Nudgiator said:


> OK, what I want to know: is this (18 GHz output board with 1x 18 GHz video/audio + 1x 9 GHz audio) a limitation of the Radiance Pro or of the Lattice output card? Or in other words: may it be possible in the future to use 2x 18 GHz video/audio as output card when Lattice will produce such cards?


We use the Silicon Image (now Lattice) SiI9777 for both 18 GHz input and 18 GHz output. It has four 18 GHz inputs with HDCP 2.2. We use its 18 GHz output with HDCP 2.2, and the 9 GHz output with HDCP 1.X.

For input the 18 GHz source is split into two 9 GHz channels by the SiI9777, which means that the dual 9 GHz input board becomes an 18 GHz input board with two inputs. It has the limitation that the 18 GHz chip can only pass one input at a time and so the two inputs on the same 18 GHz input cannot both be active for PiP/PoP.

It takes two 9 GHz channels merged into the output chip to create a single 18 GHz A/V output. The chip therefore uses the two 9 GHz channels from the dual 9 GHz output for one 18 GHz output.

So in answer to your question, IF Lattice developed a chip that had two 9 GHz inputs it could merge to 18 Ghz, and had two 18 GHz outputs (which would have to be the identical in content), it would be possible to have a dual 18 GHz output card. I judge the chances of Lattice doing this as most likely zero.

To anticipate your next question, the output card area is too small to do something complicated like buffer the two 9 GHz sources and drive two 18 GHz output chips.

=======

Please note: The reason the Radiance Pro 444X has four 9 GHz outputs was specifically to allow two 18 GHz outputs and one audio only output. You do end up with an extra audio output, but that is just due to the dual I/O card architecture. We have no plans for more than two processed 18 GHz outputs in the 444X models.


----------



## Nudgiator

@Jim
In order to make it more clearly for all owners of the PRO ... can you tell us shortly what we will get, when we decide to completely upgrade e.g. the Radiance 4446 (at the moment with eight 9 GHz inputs and four 9 GHz outputs) with the new 18 GHz boards?

I think we get:

- eight 18 GHz inputs (but only 4 can be used for PiP/PoP)
- two 18 GHz outputs with video/audio
- two 9 GHz outputs for audio only


----------



## OMARDRIS

Nudgiator said:


> I have exactly the same problem: the lower part of the screen is distorted. When I want I can reproduce that effect every time. It's definitely a problem of the order you switch on your devices connected with the PRO. I am using a macro via my Lightmanager Air to solve that problem. Since then I have never seen that problem again. But well: I have never seen that effect with my former 2143.


 
Hi,
unfortunately, i have also often the problem with the blank screen after starting the Radiance Pro 4240 (Software 060616 - last update with force). He is connected to a Sony VW1100ES (4k) over a 3m long HightSpeed HDMI cable (18GB, Output 2).The two sources (Blu-ray player + satellite receiver) are connected with 5 m long HightSpeed HDMI cable (18GB). 
When I see the info-menu of VW1100 , there the correct input signal (i.e. 1080p24 or 2160p24) is displayed so ( i believe) that the synchonisation has occurred, but no info or menu of Radiance Pro is displayed. The projector does have connection very quick but get/shows no Picture. 

The only solution is that you first turn on the projector, then the source and the last Radiance Pro. If you want to change the input, is hit or miss. Sometimes I have to reboot the Radiance Pro. If the connection works, there is no problem display 2160p24 with 444 (8 Bit).
I do not have UHD-Blu-ray Player.

When testing with my HD TV I did not have these problems. Perhaps it is related to the 4k of VW1100ES. 


Peter


----------



## Chris5

Hi Jim and everyone. Yes the split screen thing is like that shown above. I could not find the brand of hdmi's leads Jim recommends here in the UK. I have recently replaced both my input hdmi's leads with 5m length of AKORD and IBRA branded leads off amazon and these seem more reliable than my last lot. So far I have had only 1 failed sky boot up on my new leads where the picture was all green and magenta (looks like wrong colour space selected). I still have to check (with new cables) whether I can now successfully swap inputs (Sky to bluray) without big issues. 

Certainly the radiance must always be active before you bring the sky box out of standby otherwise the skybox won't work, this has always been the case even with my old XS, something to do with edid I guess.

I confirmed that in all situations in the past I have been able to get the info screen to appear on the output with the input showing as 'NA' when it should be showing something like '1080i50'. Do you still think it could be an output module issue Jim as you indicated above?


----------



## jrp

Nudgiator said:


> @Jim
> In order to make it more clearly for all owners of the PRO ... can you tell us shortly what we will get, when we decide to completely upgrade e.g. the Radiance 4446 (at the moment with eight 9 GHz inputs and four 9 GHz outputs) with the new 18 GHz boards?
> 
> I think we get:
> 
> - eight 18 GHz inputs (but only 4 can be used for PiP/PoP)
> - two 18 GHz outputs with video/audio
> - two 9 GHz outputs for audio only


We have not decided if we will be supporting the max configuration you mention or not. We need to do testing with that maximum configuration before we would support it. So while I expect that the maximum configuration you mention will likely be supported we cannot make any commitments until we have the production board for both 18 GHz input and 18 GHz output and have completed our testing.


----------



## jrp

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> unfortunately, i have also often the problem with the blank screen after starting the Radiance Pro 4240 (Software 060616 - last update with force). He is connected to a Sony VW1100ES (4k) over a 3m long HightSpeed HDMI cable (18GB, Output 2)....
> 
> When testing with my HD TV I did not have these problems. Perhaps it is related to the 4k of VW1100ES. Peter


Peter:

You symptoms are 100% consistent with marginal HDMI cable perhaps coupled with a marginal HDMI input design for a TV, projector, or AVR. Given that the 1080p TV did not have the issues, that further indicates HDMI cabling issues. I have this conversation all the time and the solution is almost without exception to use a better HDMI cable. Note that just because a cable says it is 18 GHz does not mean it will perform well in the real world.

For sources, we recommend 2 to 3 meter passive HDMI cables to the Radiance Pro as some (many?) sources do not have the HDMI output Standby Power to drive an active HDMI cable reliably. We have actually resolved turn-on issues by replacing active HDMI cables from sources with 6 foot passive HDMI cables.

Never use less than a 2 meter passive HDMI cable. This is due to the HDMI equalization making the signal too hot with shorter (i.e. less attenuation) HDMI cables. Shorter cables can work, but I have hundreds of examples where they didn't work reliably over time and going to a 2 meter or 3 meter passive cable resolved the issue.

For all Radiance Outputs 2XXX series and 4XXX series, we strongly recommend an active cable, or a passive cable with an HDMI repeater such as the Ethereal HDM-GA1. We see many marginal designs in TV/projector input sections (not saying yours has one though. This is meant as a general comment) and by using an active cable there is a buffer to clean up the HDMI signal before it hits the discontinuity of the HDMI input connector on the TV/projector. Same goes for the cable to the AVR and we have seen marginal designs for input sections in AVRs as well. Note: If active cables are designed correctly they can be short cables since the internal buffer can be tuned to the short cable length.

Allow me to suggest a 10 foot Monoprice Cabernet Redmere cable to the projector and an appropriate length Monoprice Cabernet Redmere cable to the AVR.

===== 

Some devices can be power-up-order dependent. We try hard to have the Radiance and Radiance Pro be insensitive to power on order. However, we we cannot test all combinations, so you may need to find a good power up order that works for you and stick to it.

===== 

If changing inputs is "Hit or Miss" this also indicates an HDMI cable issue. To see if it is the cable to the Projector (as I believe), you can use the Radiance Pro Output Setup Menu, to say that you want 4k60 output for all inputs, all input memories, and all inputs resolutions and do a Save. NOTE: You might want to download your configuration to a PC first using the Radiance Config Reader. Once you make the change to always outputting 4k60, when you change inputs the output to the projector does not need to be changed or restarted (assuming audio is turned off for that output). So I expect you will see input switching working well when the projector is not tasked with locking on to a changing input rate.


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the Explanation and recommendation. The theme HDMI cable is very user unfriendly.

And I thought the Radiance would be a part of the solution but now I see that he is a part of the problem. 


Peter


----------



## Nudgiator

Chris5 said:


> Do you still think it could be an output module issue Jim as you indicated above?


Well, as I told you before I had the same problems with the split screen. Then I decided to use a macro within my Logitech Harmony. There I can program the exact timing for all of my devices e.g. power on Radiance ... wait 5 seconds ... turn on BD player ... wait 2 sceonds ... etc. I have never seen any problems with my 4446 again, after I used that macro. 

But I agree with you: I have also never seen any problems with my 2143 before ... but I did with the 4446, when I do not use the macro. And NOTHING changed in my infrastructure since then.


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> We have not decided if we will be supporting the max configuration you mention or not. We need to do testing with that maximum configuration before we would support it. So while I expect that the maximum configuration you mention will likely be supported we cannot make any commitments until we have the production board for both 18 GHz input and 18 GHz output and have completed our testing.


Ok, but we will definitely get ???: 

- four 18 GHz inputs
- two 18 GHz outputs with video/audio
- two 9 GHz outputs for audio only


----------



## Nudgiator

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi Jim,
> Thanks for the Explanation and recommendation. The theme HDMI cable is very user unfriendly.
> 
> And I thought the Radiance would be a part of the solution but now I see that he is a part of the problem.
> 
> 
> Peter


Hi Peter!

I have followed the hints from Jim and had never any problems with the following HDMI cables from Monoprice with my Radiance 4446:

- For my K8500 and HD Fury Integral: Monoprice 3ft 18Gbps Ultra Slim Series High Performance HDMI® Cable w/RedMere® Technology - Black

- For my JVC-X7000: Monoprice HDMI-cable (9,1m, Ultra Slim, High Speed, RedMere Technology)

The first cable is specified for 18 GHz, the second only for 10,2 GHz. But all cables work very, very well with [email protected]@444 via the 4446. At the moment I would suggest the 18 GHz Cabernet series or its successor for longer cable distances.

And be careful: Monoprice has a lot of active cables, but some of them are NOT with the original Redmere-technology! That cables are CRAP! So look for: active, 18 Ghz and Redmere-technology.


----------



## Nudgiator

OMARDRIS said:


> And I thought the Radiance would be a part of the solution but now I see that he is a part of the problem.


For me the 4446 is definitely part of the solution. Without the 4446, my HDMI cable to the projector is not working with 4k and my K8500 --> JVC-X7000 . WITH the 4446, it's working without any problems. But well, my HDMI cable is only certified for 10,2 GHz.


----------



## Chris5

Update, OK... Trying repeated input switching between sky and oppo bluray, switching works about 80% of the time. A couple of times switching from sky to bluray would freeze with sky image refreshing a still image every second reminiscent of "Max Headroom". Switching to a non connected input between each selection (ie instead of switching from 1 to 2, switch 1 to 3 to 2) seems to work every time.

Fan noise seems to be metalwork resonance, moving/lifting unit slightly will stop the hum, but it soon returns


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz in/out questions*

I'm likely less savvy than many on this thread, but a few basic questions:

1) the 18 GHz HDR input/outputs are only needed for HDR sources.
So, presumably all inputs don't need this until -- eventually -- HDR becomes much more common.

2) Is there any utility in 18 GHz inputs without 18 GHz outputs?

3) Can 18 GHz input boards be added later for $200 as needed (for current owners) are only if purchased now.


Mike



Mike_WI said:


> So is it $200 per 2 inputs and $200 per 1+ output?
> 
> Mike





jrp said:


> First, let me say that I mixed up Chris and Stuart. So, Chris the email I said I sent to you was actually sent to Stuart.
> 
> Stuart:
> 
> Concerning your comment that only the Plasma shows the half-screen issue: Are you using one Radiance Pro output for the Plasma and one for the projector? If so this points to an issue in the output chip driving the Plasma and not the FPGA as I had surmised.
> 
> If you are using one output for each, then the solution may be to replace your output card as this would indicate a marginal chip for one of the outputs. Contact Gordon and we can send him a replacement.
> 
> Chris:
> 
> If you have the same issue, and assuming Stuart is using one output for each TV/PJ, then we might need to get you a new output card as well. You can contact us at [email protected] to discuss further.





jrp said:


> The retail is $400 for two inputs on the 18 GHz card. The retail on the dual output card is $400 for one 18 GHz audio/video and one audio only output.
> 
> We are giving a $200 trade credit for those turning in the respective current input or output card. So, if you are turning in the current card you have then $200 each is correct. Plus shipping.





jrp said:


> We use the Silicon Image (now Lattice) SiI9777 for both 18 GHz input and 18 GHz output. It has four 18 GHz inputs with HDCP 2.2. We use its 18 GHz output with HDCP 2.2, and the 9 GHz output with HDCP 1.X.
> 
> For input the 18 GHz source is split into two 9 GHz channels by the SiI9777, which means that the dual 9 GHz input board becomes an 18 GHz input board with two inputs. It has the limitation that the 18 GHz chip can only pass one input at a time and so the two inputs on the same 18 GHz input cannot both be active for PiP/PoP.
> 
> It takes two 9 GHz channels merged into the output chip to create a single 18 GHz A/V output. The chip therefore uses the two 9 GHz channels from the dual 9 GHz output for one 18 GHz output.
> 
> So in answer to your question, IF Lattice developed a chip that had two 9 GHz inputs it could merge to 18 Ghz, and had two 18 GHz outputs (which would have to be the identical in content), it would be possible to have a dual 18 GHz output card. I judge the chances of Lattice doing this as most likely zero.
> 
> To anticipate your next question, the output card area is too small to do something complicated like buffer the two 9 GHz sources and drive two 18 GHz output chips.
> 
> =======
> 
> Please note: The reason the Radiance Pro 444X has four 9 GHz outputs was specifically to allow two 18 GHz outputs and one audio only output. You do end up with an extra audio output, but that is just due to the dual I/O card architecture. We have no plans for more than two processed 18 GHz outputs in the 444X models.





Nudgiator said:


> @Jim
> In order to make it more clearly for all owners of the PRO ... can you tell us shortly what we will get, when we decide to completely upgrade e.g. the Radiance 4446 (at the moment with eight 9 GHz inputs and four 9 GHz outputs) with the new 18 GHz boards?
> 
> I think we get:
> 
> - eight 18 GHz inputs (but only 4 can be used for PiP/PoP)
> - two 18 GHz outputs with video/audio
> - two 9 GHz outputs for audio only





jrp said:


> We have not decided if we will be supporting the max configuration you mention or not. We need to do testing with that maximum configuration before we would support it. So while I expect that the maximum configuration you mention will likely be supported we cannot make any commitments until we have the production board for both 18 GHz input and 18 GHz output and have completed our testing.


----------



## Nudgiator

Mike_WI said:


> I'm likely less savvy than many on this thread, but a few basic questions:
> 
> 1) the 18 GHz HDR input/outputs are only needed for HDR sources.
> So, presumably all inputs don't need this until -- eventually -- HDR becomes much more common.


No, that has nothing to do with HDR. You can also use the 9 GHz boards for HDR. You will need the 18 GHz boards for higher bandwiths, e.g. for [email protected]@444.



> 2) Is there any utility in 18 GHz inputs without 18 GHz outputs?


Yes. The K8500 (unfortunately) always uses [email protected]/[email protected] ... so you need an 18 GHz input board, because source is above 10,2 Gbps.



> 3) Can 18 GHz input boards be added later for $200 as needed (for current owners) are only if purchased now.


Good question ... Jim?


----------



## sillysally

Nudgiator said:


> Yes. The K8500 (unfortunately) always uses [email protected]/[email protected] ... so you need an 18 GHz input board, because source is above 10,2 Gbps.


What I have found is that the Euro streaming TV shows are being outputted from the K8500 (auto mode) at [email protected]0 4:2:0 SDR, the Pro is outputting the same to my 4K OLED.

The PQ is very good at [email protected], 4:2:0=8 Bit.

In the past I wasn't able to do the above. I am thinking maybe the why is because of the latest firmware for the K8500.

ss


----------



## OMARDRIS

Nudgiator said:


> For me the 4446 is definitely part of the solution. Without the 4446, my HDMI cable to the projector is not working with 4k and my K8500 --> JVC-X7000 . WITH the 4446, it's working without any problems. But well, my HDMI cable is only certified for 10,2 GHz.


 
Hi,
thank you that you have explained to me your setup.
Currently i have a 7.5m cable between the player and projector.
So I wanted 5m to Radiance and than 3m to the projector.
But because of advice from Jim I will now order a cable Monoprice Cabernet RedMere. I have seen that the shortest length is 25 feed (7,5m). Then I can accommodate the Radiance in the rack with the other devices.
For the sources I will get 6-feed cable.
Peter


----------



## Chris5

Does anywhere stock these cables in the UK, Amazon.co.uk list them as unavailable.


----------



## OMARDRIS

Chris5 said:


> Does anywhere stock these cables in the UK, Amazon.co.uk list them as unavailable.


 
Hi,
i have ordered this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monoprice...767152?hash=item2ca1a8fb30:g:ne4AAOSwFnFV9rva


I hope that the order works...
Peter


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> I'm likely less savvy than many on this thread, but a few basic questions:
> 1) the 18 GHz HDR input/outputs are only needed for HDR sources.
> So, presumably all inputs don't need this until -- eventually -- HDR becomes much more common.
> 2) Is there any utility in 18 GHz inputs without 18 GHz outputs?
> 3) Can 18 GHz input boards be added later for $200 as needed (for current owners) are only if purchased now.
> Mike


To add to Nudgiator's response to Mike questions:

1) 18 GHz allows 4k60, 4:4:4, 8-bit, or (what would be a better choice IMO) 4k60, 4:2:2, 12-bit. The later better supports the HDR requirements for 4k60 HDR sources since it is >10-bits. Settop boxes and some players/streamers prefer 4:4:4 output. I would prefer 4:2:2 12-bit for 4k60 even for OSD's.

2) Yes, 18 GHz inputs with 9 GHz outputs is very useful. My recommendation is to upgrade to some 18 GHz inputs on the Pro for HDR capable sources when they become available. You can use a passive 4k rated 6 foot from the source to the Radiance Pro. Then I recommend leaving the outputs at 9 GHz for a while. The Pro can output 4k60, 8-bit, 4:2:0 for 60 Hz sources since there is not likely to be much decent 4k60 HDR material for a while. Using 9 GHz output from the Pro allows HDR movies at 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2, which is more than the 10-bit depth in HDR sources. Putting off 18 GHz output on the Pro will delay the potential nightmare that long 18 GHz cables can cause, and maybe the HDMI cables will improve 18 GHz performance in the mean time. 

3) The special on 18 GHz input cards at $200 with trade-in of a 9 GHz card is a limited time offer. I am thinking the offer will be in place for the rest of 2016, but we reserve the right to change this to an earlier or later date.


----------



## thrang

So are you now taking and shipping upgrade orders?

What is the process? Email? 

Thanks


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> I am pleased to announce that we are close to the initial HDR release. We should be posting the HDR release in approximately two weeks.


- Will "_*Rec.2020, No HDR*_" be a valid output config after the update? 

- If so, will the Radiance Pro tone map HDR to SDR, or just clip the luminance at 100 nits?

- Once the "_*Rec.2020, No HDR*_" code is complete, do you expect that 3rd party auto-cal solutions (eg. Lightspace XPT) will be able to perform a proper Rec.2020/SDR 3D LUT calibration right off the bat, or will vendors need to patch their software to accomodate the new Radiance capabilities?


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> So are you now taking and shipping upgrade orders? What is the process? Email?


If you are interested in being an Alpha site for the Radiance Pro 18 GHz input card, please email us at [email protected]. Include your Radiance Pro serial number and your Paypal email. Note this input card is common to both the 424X and 444X series Radiance Pro units.

Installing the new input card is straight forward and only requires Philips Screw drivers (#1 and #2). We can do the install teh 18 GHz input card at Lumagen at no charge if you pay shipping both ways.

Cost in the USA is $200 (if you trade in a 9 GHz card), plus $25 shipping/handling in the USA. If you want to keep your 9 GHz cards, it is $300 plus $25 shipping. These are limited time offers. The retail for a 18 GHz card will be $400. If you are in Europe contact Gordon of Convergent AV. Email us for his email if you don't have it.

We ship the Alpha card (likely starting week of July 25) and the production card is included as a trade for the Alpha card once they become available (likely end of August). The $25 Shipping/handling covers shipment from Lumagen of the Alpha card and then later the production card in the USA. You pay to return ship any trade-in cards.

NOTE: Supply of Alpha 18 GHz Input cards is very limited. So please understand if we cannot support all who want to be Alpha sites.


----------



## jrp

henrich3 said:


> 1)Will "_*Rec.2020, No HDR*_" be a valid output config after the update?
> 
> 2) If so, will the Radiance Pro tone map HDR to SDR, or just clip the luminance at 100 nits?
> 
> 3) Once the "_*Rec.2020, No HDR*_" code is complete, do you expect that 3rd party auto-cal solutions (eg. Lightspace XPT) will be able to perform a proper Rec.2020/SDR 3D LUT calibration right off the bat, or will vendors need to patch their software to accommodate the new Radiance capabilities?


1) Rec 2020 output without HDR (even if the input is HDR) is a valid selection. HOWEVER, it will require calibration to "shape" the input range into the output range. See 3) below.

2) Initially (with calibration) we expect to clip to the max. You say "just clip" like it is a bad thing. I am of the opinion that it may well be the best thing to do. This means than any color within the range of the TV/projector is the same as that color on an fully capable HDR display (with some limitations as you approach the max output of the TV/projector). Accurate color is what calibration is all about.

Of course their are people who prefer Tone Mapping. This is a possible enhancement for the Radiance Pro. However, the "mapping" means some source colors/intensities within the range of the TV/Projector are changed -- and so wrong. The question is does gaining some modulation range for specular highlights that would be above the range of the TV/projector trump the loss of color accuracy? This debate will rage on for a long time I'm sure.

3) The auto calibration software companies need to make changes for calibration software for the Radiance Pro Rec 2020 and HDR. In addition, more changes are needed in the calibration software to compensate for TVs/projectors that do not have enough light output for HDR. This may be Tone Mapping, or clipping intensities to the maximum capability of the TV/projector. We are working with calibration software companies to get the necessary features implemented in the Radiance Pro, so they can complete the changes they need to make for HDR and Rec 2020 using the Radiance Pro.

Note that the HDR software release for the Pro is expected on Monday July 25.


----------



## p5browne

What TV or Projector out there, can even do a Full 2020 yet? or is this coming up CES 2017?


----------



## p5browne

So far, swapped out a Redmere HDMI and Monster HDMI cable with the following. Found nice PQ improvements, and not having the handshaking issues I had previously.

https://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-...R,+ARC,+Highspeed+with+Ethernet)+-+PRO+Series


----------



## henrich3

p5browne said:


> What TV or Projector out there, can even do a Full 2020 yet?


None that I'm aware of, but the ability to display "full 2020" isn't really relevant yet since current UHD sources like UHD Blu-ray just use DCI/P3 colors within a Rec. 2020 container. Being able to decode Rec. 2020 and pass the flag is necessary however if one wants to enjoy those P3 colors. But you already knew that...


----------



## RapalloAV

jrp said:


> Allow me to suggest a 10 foot Monoprice Cabernet Redmere cable to the projector and an appropriate length Monoprice Cabernet Redmere cable to the AVR.
> 
> .



Jim I've just had a look at these as I'm probably best to replace the two outputs from the Pro with Redmere as you suggest. Problem is they don't make 10foot in these, please take a look.
I only need approx. 3M to 4M cables to the AVR and projector.
http://www.monoprice.com/category?c_id=102&cp_id=10255


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> 1) Rec 2020 output without HDR (even if the input is HDR) is a valid selection. HOWEVER, it will require calibration to "shape" the input range into the output range. See 3) below.
> 
> 2) *Initially (with calibration) we expect to clip to the max.* You say "just clip" like it is a bad thing. I am of the opinion that it may well be the best thing to do. This means than any color within the range of the TV/projector is the same as that color on an fully capable HDR display (with some limitations as you approach the max output of the TV/projector). Accurate color is what calibration is all about.
> 
> Of course their are people who prefer Tone Mapping. This is a possible enhancement for the Radiance Pro. However, the "mapping" means some source colors/intensities within the range of the TV/Projector are changed -- and so wrong. The question is does gaining some modulation range for specular highlights that would be above the range of the TV/projector trump the loss of color accuracy? This debate will rage on for a long time I'm sure.
> 
> 3) The auto calibration software companies need to make changes for calibration software for the Radiance Pro Rec 2020 and HDR. In addition, more changes are needed in the calibration software to compensate for TVs/projectors that do not have enough light output for HDR. This may be Tone Mapping, or clipping intensities to the maximum capability of the TV/projector. We are working with calibration software companies to get the necessary features implemented in the Radiance Pro, so they can complete the changes they need to make for HDR and Rec 2020 using the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Note that the HDR software release for the Pro is expected on Monday July 25.


The goal of an accurate image is unobtainable if one's display can't achieve the same max luminance that the content was mastered at (eg. 4000 nits), so the question should be "_Which is the lesser evil?_" - hard clipping or tone mapping. From what I recall of a Joe Kane webcast, clipping introduces objectionable artifacts, while tone mapping is the preferred way of displaying HDR highlights on displays that can't match the mastering display's brightness.


----------



## jrp

RapalloAV said:


> Jim I've just had a look at these as I'm probably best to replace the two outputs from the Pro with Redmere as you suggest. Problem is they don't make 10 foot in these, please take a look. I only need approx. 3M to 4M cables to the AVR and projector.
> http://www.monoprice.com/category?c_id=102&cp_id=10255


Looks like they have dropped the shorter 18 GHz cables. So based on what I see on their website you would need to buy the 25 foot Cabernet Redmere cable an loop the excess.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

henrich3 said:


> - Once the "_*Rec.2020, No HDR*_" code is complete, do you expect that 3rd party auto-cal solutions (eg. Lightspace XPT) will be able to perform a proper Rec.2020/SDR 3D LUT calibration right off the bat, or will vendors need to patch their software to accomodate the new Radiance capabilities?


Hi, just to add that Lumagen Radiance Pro 4x4x series can work also with LightSpace HTL (lower priced license level) also.


----------



## RapalloAV

jrp said:


> Looks like they have dropped the shorter 18 GHz cables. So based on what I see on their website you would need to buy the 25 foot Cabernet Redmere cable an loop the excess.


 Oh gee that's not a very tidy way considering I only need about 4 foot. Is there a cheaper way of doing a short run from the Pros two outputs rather than buying two Ethereal HDM-GA1s as these are approx. $469.00 each 


What about the cheaper short (other brand) Redmere that Monoprice sell?


----------



## jrp

henrich3 said:


> The goal of an accurate image is unobtainable if one's display can't achieve the same max luminance that the content was mastered at (eg. 4000 nits), so the question should be "_Which is the lesser evil?_" - hard clipping or tone mapping.


Exactly my point. Clipping is always considered a bad thing in video. Tone Mapping introduces different errors in color, but not the kind of artifacts that clipping does.

You may well be right that tone mapping will turn out to be less objectionable. However, compressing 1000 nits into 100 nits, will show issues as well. Perhaps the answer is some tone mapping and some clipping of higher intensities.


----------



## henrich3

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hi, just to add that Lumagen Radiance Pro 4x4x series can work also with LightSpace HTL (lower priced license level) also.


Thanks. I know that my calibrator recently switched to LightSpace XPT, and I've been waiting for months to get my RS600 & Radiance Pro calibrated. If I can't get a proper tone mapped Rec. 2020/SDR output from the Pro, I may need to see if my calibrator can do an HDR cal. That has significant issues that I'd rather avoid. If the Pro won't include tone mapping functionality, does LightSpace?


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> Exactly my point. Clipping is always considered a bad thing in video. Tone Mapping introduces different errors in color, but not the kind of artifacts that clipping does.
> 
> You may well be right that tone mapping will turn out to be less objectionable. However, compressing 1000 nits into 100 nits, will show issues as well. Perhaps the answer is some tone mapping and some clipping of higher intensities.


That sounds like a better solution...


----------



## jrp

RapalloAV said:


> Oh gee that's not a very tidy way considering I only need about 4 foot. Is there a cheaper way of doing a short run from the Pros two outputs rather than buying two Ethereal HDM-GA1s as these are approx. $469.00 each
> 
> 
> What about the cheaper short (other brand) Redmere that Monoprice sell?


Sorry I didn't think to mention that you should be able to use a passive HDMI cable at 18 GHz up to 3 to 5 meters. I believe Tributaries, Ethereal, and Monoprice have passive 18 GHz cables in these lengths.

For Monoprice 18 GHz passive: Certified Premium High Speed HDMI® Cable, 10ft, Product Number: 15429

====

I prefer active HDMI cables because they buffer the HDMI signal right before the input connector on the TV/projector.

The issue with a passive cable in these lengths is if the receiving device has issues in its input design that create excessive reflections in the differential HDMI signal, which in turn affects the "eye" of the signal, it will not provide a stable connection. By buffering the signal right at the input of the TV/Projector, the buffered signal can have slower edge rates, and so provide a signal that is easier for the TV/projector to lock on to.

However, if the input design is done well, a passive cable is a good way to go for up to about 5 meters.


----------



## RapalloAV

jrp said:


> Sorry I didn't think to mention that you should be able to use a passive HDMI cable at 18 GHz up to 3 to 5 meters. I believe Tributaries, Ethereal, and Monoprice have passive 18 GHz cables in these lengths.
> 
> For Monoprice 18 GHz passive: Certified Premium High Speed HDMI® Cable, 10ft, Product Number: 15429
> 
> ====
> 
> I prefer active HDMI cables because they buffer the HDMI signal right before the input connector on the TV/projector.
> 
> The issue with a passive cable in these lengths is if the receiving device has issues in its input design that create excessive reflections in the differential HDMI signal, which in turn affects the "eye" of the signal, it will not provide a stable connection. By buffering the signal right at the input of the TV/Projector, the buffered signal can have slower edge rates, and so provide a signal that is easier for the TV/projector to lock on to.
> 
> However, if the input design is done well, a passive cable is a good way to go for up to about 5 meters.



This is what all my cables are currently, but I cant see any information that they are 18GHz at all, what do you think?
http://www.kramerav.com/product/C-HM/HM/PICO


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I have started using the 6ft and 8ft long BlueJeans, Belden 18GHz certified passive cables for short lengths and they seem to be sorting out problems in some systems. So i'd add them to the potential cable solution list.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> If you are interested in being an Alpha site for the Radiance Pro 18 GHz input card, please email us at [email protected]. Include your Radiance Pro serial number and your Paypal email. Note this input card is common to both the 424X and 444X series Radiance Pro units.
> 
> Installing the new input card is straight forward and only requires Philips Screw drivers (#1 and #2). We can do the install teh 18 GHz input card at Lumagen at no charge if you pay shipping both ways.
> 
> Cost in the USA is $200 (if you trade in a 9 GHz card), plus $25 shipping/handling in the USA. If you want to keep your 9 GHz cards, it is $300 plus $25 shipping. These are limited time offers. The retail for a 18 GHz card will be $400. If you are in Europe contact Gordon of Convergent AV. Email us for his email if you don't have it.
> 
> We ship the Alpha card (likely starting week of July 25) and the production card is included as a trade for the Alpha card once they become available (likely end of August). The $25 Shipping/handling covers shipment from Lumagen of the Alpha card and then later the production card in the USA. You pay to return ship any trade-in cards.
> 
> NOTE: Supply of Alpha 18 GHz Input cards is very limited. So please understand if we cannot support all who want to be Alpha sites.


So these Alpha cards need to be swapped again for production cards by end of August or so, for the cost of us shipping the cards back, is this correct?

Personally, I'm thinking it's simpler to wait for the production cards for a few hundred more, rather then taking my rack apart twice...


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> 1) Rec 2020 output without HDR (even if the input is HDR) is a valid selection. HOWEVER, it will require calibration to "shape" the input range into the output range. See 3) below.
> 
> 2) Initially (with calibration) we expect to clip to the max. You say "just clip" like it is a bad thing. I am of the opinion that it may well be the best thing to do. This means than any color within the range of the TV/projector is the same as that color on an fully capable HDR display (with some limitations as you approach the max output of the TV/projector). Accurate color is what calibration is all about.
> 
> Of course their are people who prefer Tone Mapping. This is a possible enhancement for the Radiance Pro. However, the "mapping" means some source colors/intensities within the range of the TV/Projector are changed -- and so wrong. The question is does gaining some modulation range for specular highlights that would be above the range of the TV/projector trump the loss of color accuracy? This debate will rage on for a long time I'm sure.
> 
> 3) The auto calibration software companies need to make changes for calibration software for the Radiance Pro Rec 2020 and HDR. In addition, more changes are needed in the calibration software to compensate for TVs/projectors that do not have enough light output for HDR. This may be Tone Mapping, or clipping intensities to the maximum capability of the TV/projector. We are working with calibration software companies to get the necessary features implemented in the Radiance Pro, so they can complete the changes they need to make for HDR and Rec 2020 using the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Note that the HDR software release for the Pro is expected on Monday July 25.


Hi Jim:

Answer # 2 seems to be for HDR to SDR conversion. What functions will be available for HDR Tone mapping for projectors to set Nit Max brightness of say between 700-1000 Nits for HDR ?


----------



## henrich3

LJG said:


> Answer # 2 seems to be for HDR to SDR conversion. What functions will be available for HDR Tone mapping for projectors to set Nit Max brightness of say between 700-1000 Nits for HDR ?


HDR displays are supposed to be able to read the content's HDR metadata and tone map that luminance to whatever that display is capable of. If you want to output HDR to your display, no external tone mapping should be necessary. The only tone mapping needed in the Pro would be if an owner wants to do an HDR to SDR conversion. 

Most consumer projectors have a max luminance closer to 100 nits (29 fL) than 1000 nits (292 fL), so HDR doesn't really make sense for projectors.


----------



## Wookii

henrich3 said:


> Most consumer projectors have a max luminance closer to 100 nits (29 fL) than 1000 nits (292 fL), so HDR doesn't really make sense for projectors.


I have to disagree there Henrich, one of the key things the HDR update on the Radiance Pro needs to achieve is successfully take a HDR input, and provide a means of calibration path that presents that HDR signal in the best possible way on the display device based on its peak light output.

I don't have the technical knowledge to know whether that is best achieved by tone mapping or clipping, or a mixture of both, but the last thing I want is for that HDR to simply be converted to SDR.


----------



## sjschaff

RapalloAV said:


> Jim I've just had a look at these as I'm probably best to replace the two outputs from the Pro with Redmere as you suggest. Problem is they don't make 10foot in these, please take a look.
> I only need approx. 3M to 4M cables to the AVR and projector.
> http://www.monoprice.com/category?c_id=102&cp_id=10255


I would recommend you contact Monoprice directly via phone. Tell them exactly what you're looking to purchase. I've found their website to be pretty poor at showing you everything you'd like. Went through this process myself, after speaking with Jim at Lumagen to get his recommendation. Letting the folks at Monoprice know the specific cable (Redmere, 18ghz speed, and length) they were able to come up with the correct cable. In my setup - multiple sources into Lumagen Pro then 15 foot Redmere 18ghz to JVC RS500 all worked well.


----------



## henrich3

Wookii said:


> I have to disagree there Henrich, one of the key things the HDR update on the Radiance Pro needs to achieve is successfully take a HDR input, and provide a means of calibration path that presents that HDR signal in the best possible way on the display device based on its peak light output.
> 
> I don't have the technical knowledge to know whether that is best achieved by tone making or clipping, or a mixture of both, but the last thing I want is for that HDR to simply be converted to SDR.


Studios master SDR content to 100 nits, which is around the max luminance that a projector can accomodate. If you watch a standard 1080p Blu-ray, that content has been tone mapped by a colorist to 100 nits. Tone mapping an HDR UHD Blu-ray to SDR is just doing the same thing.

The question is how to best display content that may have luminance levels of 4000 nits or more on a 100 nit display. Simply clipping & discarding the 101 - 4000 nit luminance levels will look ugly. Tone mapping HDR luminance levels will provide a better image.

Note that when I ask for an HDR to SDR conversion, I'm not talking about converting Rec. 2020 to Rec. 709 or changing the 10-bit color depth to 8-bit. Proper tone mapping should retain both the 10-bit color depth and the Rec. 2020 color space.

Here are a few discussions on the issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2440346-joe-kane-hdr.html
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2509633-calibrating-hdr.html
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2517185-calibrating-hdr-part-2-a.html

The podcasts cover a variety of topics. The SDR/HDR discussion starts at the 14 minute point in the Joe Kane podcast.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Sorry I didn't think to mention that you should be able to use a passive HDMI cable at 18 GHz up to 3 to 5 meters. I believe Tributaries, Ethereal, and Monoprice have passive 18 GHz cables in these lengths.
> 
> For Monoprice 18 GHz passive: Certified Premium High Speed HDMI® Cable, 10ft, Product Number: 15429
> 
> ====
> 
> I prefer active HDMI cables because they buffer the HDMI signal right before the input connector on the TV/projector.
> 
> The issue with a passive cable in these lengths is if the receiving device has issues in its input design that create excessive reflections in the differential HDMI signal, which in turn affects the "eye" of the signal, it will not provide a stable connection. By buffering the signal right at the input of the TV/Projector, the buffered signal can have slower edge rates, and so provide a signal that is easier for the TV/projector to lock on to.
> 
> However, if the input design is done well, a passive cable is a good way to go for up to about 5 meters.


I've no idea what your system level (cost) happens to be. If it's really great, consider the following:

If you can find a dealer who sells Audioquest see if they can wrangle a couple of their higher end cables for demo in your setup. I did that with my dealer here in the S.F. Bay area for a 2 meter and 5 meter set of Vodka's. I know they are expensive and since not using active technology are much thicker than the Monoprice Redmere's. However in my system these proved better visually and even more sonically, if that matters at all in your setup. I tested with Tivo, home theater pc, and Blu-Ray player inputs into Lumagen Radiance Pro and then into JVC RS500 and on audio side Anthem D2V. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Wookii

henrich3 said:


> Studios master SDR content to 100 nits, which is around the max luminance that a projector can accomodate. If you watch a standard 1080p Blu-ray, that content has been tone mapped by a colorist to 100 nits. Tone mapping an HDR UHD Blu-ray to SDR is just doing the same thing.
> 
> The question is how to best display content that may have luminance levels of 4000 nits or more on a 100 nit display. Simply clipping & discarding the 101 - 4000 nit luminance levels will look ugly. Tone mapping HDR luminance levels will provide a better image.
> 
> Note that when I ask for an HDR to SDR conversion, I'm not talking about converting Rec. 2020 to Rec. 709 or changing the 10-bit color depth to 8-bit. Proper tone mapping should retain both the 10-bit color depth and the Rec. 2020 color space.
> 
> Here are a few discussions on the issue:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2440346-joe-kane-hdr.html
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2509633-calibrating-hdr.html
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2517185-calibrating-hdr-part-2-a.html
> 
> The podcasts cover a variety of topics. The SDR/HDR discussion starts at the 14 minute point in the Joe Kane podcast.


Ah ok, I may have misunderstood what you meant then. So when you say 'convert to SDR' are you meaning converting the HDR to the peak luminance of the projector (29FtL in your example), not reducing it further to the 16FtL or so we would normally calibrate to for current SDR (I.e. HD Blu Ray etc)?


----------



## henrich3

Wookii said:


> Ah ok, I may have misunderstood what you meant then. So when you say 'convert to SDR' are you meaning converting the HDR to the peak luminance of the projector (29FtL in your example), not reducing it further to the 16FtL or so we would normally calibrate to for current SDR (I.e. HD Blu Ray etc)?


The conversion would be to compress the HDR highlights into the upper SDR luminance levels. You then calibrate your display as you would for an SDR Blu-ray, for example.

If I understood correctly, Joe Kane indicated that the entire 10-bit color depth could be used for the tone mapped SDR output, so you actually have greater precision adjusting SDR luminance levels after tone mapping.


----------



## LJG

henrich3 said:


> HDR displays are supposed to be able to read the content's HDR metadata and tone map that luminance to whatever that display is capable of. If you want to output HDR to your display, no external tone mapping should be necessary. The only tone mapping needed in the Pro would be if an owner wants to do an HDR to SDR conversion.
> 
> Most consumer projectors have a max luminance closer to 100 nits (29 fL) than 1000 nits (292 fL), so HDR doesn't really make sense for projectors.


I am qouting Jim in his response to me several pages back

"As part of calibration you will likely be able to clip the source to the maximum brightness of your TV/projector. The goal is that for any pixel up to the maximum brightness of your TV/projector the pixel will match a calibrated true HDR TV/projector."

This seems to imply HDR control not HDR to SDR control set at 100 Nits


----------



## henrich3

LJG said:


> I am qouting Jim in his response to me several pages back
> 
> "As part of calibration you will likely be able to clip the source to the maximum brightness of your TV/projector. The goal is that for any pixel up to the maximum brightness of your TV/projector the pixel will match a calibrated true HDR TV/projector."
> 
> This seems to imply HDR control not HDR to SDR control set at 100 Nits


Clipping a source to the maximum brightness of your display means that you're crushing highlights into white. For a ~100 nit display like a projector, that means crushing HDR luminance levels 101 - 10,000. That won't look good.

Compressing the dynamic range of highlights (tone mapping) to fit an SDR luminance range, then calibrating your display so the max SDR luminance matches your display's max light output, will result in better looking image without the crush. Tone mapping isn't perfect, but it's better than the alternative.

Again, tone mapping is done by the studios when they master HD content. Converting HDR to SDR using tone mapping in a Radiance Pro is just doing the same thing that the studios do.

Projectors have issues with HDR that flat panels don't have to contend with. When I view SDR content I use low lamp, but HDR content should be viewed in high lamp to see as many of the HDR highlights as possible. High lamp has an ugly downside however. Black levels are raised significantly using high lamp. In addition, my projector (JVC RS600) has poor auto-iris programming in HDR mode. The iris is normally wide open for HDR (or seems that way), and it's slow to clamp down for dark scenes or fades to black. For my gear & preferences, SDR is a far better option. I purchased a Radiance Pro primarily to get a top quality UHD Rec.2020 SDR (10-bit) calibration. Tone mapping HDR to SDR will be needed to get a top quality UHD image in my system.

https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/Study%20Group%20On%20High-Dynamic-Range-HDR-Ecosystem.pdf


----------



## Wookii

henrich3 said:


> . . . High lamp has an ugly downside however. Black levels are raised significantly using high lamp. In addition, my projector (JVC RS600) has poor auto-iris programming in HDR mode. The iris is normally wide open for HDR (or seems that way), and it's slow to clamp down for dark scenes or fades to black. For my gear & preferences, SDR is a far better option.


Henrich, Jim mentioned in an earlier post that the HDR update will allow the outgoing HDR flag to be removed so that it is not sent to the display.

Do you think this will be beneficial for us RS600 owners in being able to calibrate an incoming HDR source to a suitable HDR gamma and Rec2020 in the Radiance Pro, but send the outgoing signal without the HDR flag to the RS600 to allow the auto-Iris to function properly as it does with SDR content?


----------



## henrich3

Wookii said:


> Henrich, Jim mentioned in an earlier post that the HDR update will allow the outgoing HDR flag to be removed so that it is not sent to the display.
> 
> Do you think this will be beneficial for us RS600 owners in being able to calibrate an incoming HDR source to a suitable HDR gamma and Rec2020 in the Radiance Pro, but send the outgoing signal without the HDR flag to the RS600 to allow the auto-Iris to function properly as it does with SDR content?


Just removing the HDR flag without tone mapping the luminance will result in a dim image. I can accomplish that now using my Integral. The overall image brightness and colors with the HDR flag removed are inferior to what I see if I pop in a regular Blu-ray of the same movie. I use a Darblet to improve the sharpness of HD images, so that helps level the playing field in the image detail department. UHD just isn't ready for prime time in my system...

I'm sure my opinion will change once my Pro gets a nice 3D LUT calibration for UHD, but I'm waiting until it can output a proper tone mapped SDR signal before I have that done.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I believe that it is really nothing to do with Lumagen whether it's hard clipped or tone mapped. That would be up to the calibration software vendors how they want to use the 17x17x17 lut points to remap the signal.

Gordon


----------



## netroamer

*Audio Dropouts and Video Glitching*

Does anyone else feed a 3840x2160 60hz 4:2:0 signal to the Pro and the audio out, from the Pro, to a 1.x HDCP AVR? If yes, are you experiencing any audio dropouts and corresponding video glitching?


----------



## henrich3

Gordon Fraser said:


> I believe that it is really nothing to do with Lumagen whether it's hard clipped or tone mapped. That would be up to the calibration software vendors how they want to use the 17x17x17 lut points to remap the signal.
> 
> Gordon


If you're saying that it's the calibration software's responsibility to do the tone mapping, that would be swell. (Swell if they actually include that functionality anyway.) Guess I'll need to chat up my calibrator after the upcoming Pro FW update to see what he can find out...

Thanks.


----------



## gulliBELL

I do not own a 4K display yet, however I am contemplating buying a JVC DLA X-7000 or similar. I don't own a 4K source yet either, however I am contemplating buying a Kaleidescape Strato player. I'm also contemplating LightIllusion as they've offered me a good upgrade path from SpectraCal CalMan.
Is there any benefit in me upgrading my Radiance Pro to 18GHz input cards now, bearing in mind the type of hardware I'm aiming at for my next upgrade? I was an early adopter of Radiance Pro in the alpha/beta, mine has the 8 inputs and 4 processed outputs which was the only version they were building at the time. I don't know what model number this configuration was ultimately given.
I like the Lumagen product and the Lumagen support team very much. I've been a Lumagen owner for years (I've owned XD, XE, XS and now Pro). Before I discovered Lumagen I was a DVDO owner (VP30, VP50, VP50Pro). So I've owned many video processors over the years.


----------



## gulliBELL

netroamer said:


> Does anyone else feed a 3840x2160 60hz 4:2:0 signal to the Pro and the audio out, from the Pro, to a 1.x HDCP AVR? If yes, are you experiencing any audio dropouts and corresponding video glitching?


A DTSHD-MA or DolbyTrueHD audio bitstream that has passed through a Lumagen Pro to a Krell Foundation 7.1 will be met with silence (irrespective of the video resolution). So there are some known audio issues with some hardware configurations.


----------



## netroamer

gulliBELL said:


> A DTSHD-MA or DolbyTrueHD audio bitstream that has passed through a Lumagen Pro to a Krell Foundation 7.1 will be met with silence (irrespective of the video resolution). So there are some known audio issues with some hardware configurations.


This is an issue that developed with the 06062016 update and only is an issue when a 3840x2160 is input to the Pro. If the input resolution is changed to 1080p the issue disappears. Also, if I roll back the update the issue goes away.


----------



## LJG

netroamer said:


> This is an issue that developed with the 06062016 update and only is an issue when a 3840x2160 is input to the Pro. If the input resolution is changed to 1080p the issue disappears. Also, if I roll back the update the issue goes away.


I started having Hdmi audio issues with 606 update. It's only with Roku and some Netflix and Vudu content.

I have also reported trigger issues that remain unresolved and have not been explored by lumagen. I am looking forward to the HDR upgrade software and am ok with lumagen putting these glitches on the back burner......


----------



## netroamer

LJG said:


> I started having Hdmi audio issues with 606 update. It's only with Roku and some Netflix and Vudu content.
> 
> I have also reported trigger issues that remain unresolved and have not been explored by lumagen. I am looking forward to the HDR upgrade software and am ok with lumagen putting these glitches on the back burner......


Do you have a 3840x2160 input to the Pro that does work without these issues?


----------



## LJG

netroamer said:


> Do you have a 3840x2160 input to the Pro that does work without these issues?


Yes they mostly work with a few exceptions, working would be the norm, non working the exception


----------



## netroamer

I know the Roku4 and the Panasonic 4k from your posts. What else works? I thought the Panasonic video went directly to your vw5000.


----------



## LJG

I have a Directv Mini 4K connected to the Radiance.


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> Note that the HDR software release for the Pro is expected on Monday July 25.


----------



## LJG

HDR update has been released, I was also advised that the trigger issue has been resolved. An updated addendum to manual or tech tip just for the HDR would be helpful. A lot of new rs232 codes added.


----------



## jamesmil

Based on the added rs232 commands, it appears this firmware also adds rec.2020 and HDR test patterns.


----------



## Wookii

Well done to Jim and Co for getting the HDR update released.

Does anyone know if, or when, Calman will support this new functionality and be able to calibrate a 3D LUT for HDR Rec2020 with the Pro? I have e-mailed SpectraCal with that exact question and had no response so far.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 071616 = Added support for HDR.*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


> *Beta 071616*
> Added support for new 18Ghz input cards allowing 4k50/4k60 4:4:4 as well as 4K24 4:4:4 HDR.
> Contact [email protected] for more information about upgrading RadiancePro input cards from 9Ghz to 18Ghz.
> Added support for HDR.
> The CMS selected for HDR is the same CMS used for Rec2020 (see menu under Output: Output Setup).
> If needed you can disable HDR from all sources in the menu under Global: Video: Src Format: HDR.
> Samsung UBD-K8500 now working with 4k24 HDR-Rec2020 444 output to the RadiancePro with new 18Ghz card.
> Added deep color support.
> Numerous RS232 changes and additions for HDR/Rec2020 support---updated commands include ZY530, ZY533.
> New commands: ZQI22, ZQI51, ZY540-ZY547 (see updated TechTip11 rev072516 for details).
> Bugfix for input top mask with 4k source. Bugfix for setting LBox Zoom to 'Off'.
> Eliminated momentary screen blank when reselecting input aspect.
> Fixed issue with interlaced input vertical masking and shift settings not using same value as progressive.
> Fixed issue with output triggers being incorrectly triggered.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected].
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## netroamer

Wookii said:


> Well done to Jim and Co for getting the HDR update released.
> 
> Does anyone know if, or when, Calman will support this new functionality and be able to calibrate a 3D LUT for HDR Rec2020 with the Pro? I have e-mailed SpectraCal with that exact question and had no response so far.


I thought CalMan 2016 would do that.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

netroamer said:


> I thought CalMan 2016 would do that.


Calibration software solutions have now to integrate the new commands to generate REC.2020 HDR patterns and other details, AFIK Lumagen is working for this with LightIllussion (LightSpace CMS). Probably they work already for this integration with CalMAN and ChromaPure also. So keep an eye open for calibration software updates


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> I started having Hdmi audio issues with 606 update. It's only with Roku and some Netflix and Vudu content.
> 
> I have also reported trigger issues that remain unresolved and have not been explored by lumagen. I am looking forward to the HDR upgrade software and am ok with lumagen putting these glitches on the back burner......


The trigger output update was in the that most recent update. LJG says there is still more work to do though. So we will work on it some more.

We can't get audio for fail in our lab with the Roku4. So it may be a combination of the Roku4, the Radiance Pro and the audio processor. As always we are working to resolve issues as they are reported, but we have to be able to reproduce the issue to figure out how to solve it and right now everything is working in the lab. We likely need the audio processor in the lab to reproduce and getting a loaner is often difficult.


----------



## jrp

*Calibrating HDR and Rec 2020*

I will try to cover questions in general here concerning HDR and Rec 2020 calibration.

We are working with Lightspace, Spectracal, and Chromapure, on implementation of Rec 2020 and HDR calibration. I do not know the schedule for the calibration software, but I believe there is a good chance for the first pass calibration software from Spectracal and Lightspace in the next month or so. I am making my educated guess. It is of course up to the software companies to say how much work they think it is.

We have an additional feature to implement in the FPGA as part of the work on calibration. This is a "Shaping LUT." Note that a shaping LUT is different than the Tone Mapping being discussed. The shaping LUT is a 1D LUT meant to better match the input Max Light Level to the projector/TV maximum light output. We are discussing Tone Mapping but that is not in the near term plan and it may be that the video calibration pipeline in the Radiance Pro already has the needed flexibility and that calibration software does all the work for tone mapping.

For the Pro calibration there will be a Rec 709 3D LUT and a HDR/Rec2020 3D LUT. Which one to use is automatically selected based on the input Info Frame specifying HDR or Rec2020, and the current output setup which now has separate CMS settings for Rec709 and for HDR/Rec2020. The Radiance Pro has eight CMS memories and it takes two for each setup. Therefore you can have four different calibrations, which would allow a day/night mode setup for a TV and for a projector.

The calibration software will do the 3D LUT calibration for the HDR/2020 source. This proceeds basically as with Rec 709, with the addition of the Shaping LUT. Note that you can put a non-HDR, non-2020, TV/projector into a bright mode with its widest Gamut mode and calibrate for HDR/Rec2020 to the best ability of the TV/projector. This is not just removing the HDR and Rec 2020 flags as been available in some products. The Gamma and 3D LUT must be properly calibrated for this case to look correct.

Most often there will be two measurement runs, one with the TV/projector in Rec709 mode, and one for HDR/Rec2020. This later may be using a Rec709 TV/projector with different settings (bright lamp mode and wide Gamut perhaps) for HDR than for Rec709 source.

The Radiance Pro can be used as a calibration test pattern generator for HDR and Rec 2020. If you are interested you can see the updated Tech Tip 11 here: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals for information on the commands available. Note that the Shaping LUT is not in the Tech Tip yet. Also note that calibration patterns are not the same as general test patterns (e.g. chroma burst, etc.). We may implement some Rec 2020 and HDR specific test patterns in the future. The calibration test patterns are the same window patterns (with appropriate regard to the HDR Gamma, and Rec 2020 Gamut, as used for Rec 709. We will be working with teh calibration software companies and if they want additional patterns we will consider adding them.

We have tested the Samsung UHD player, the Panasonic UHD player (Euro version), and the Kaleidescape Strato for HDR. So far everything looks good. The Samsung test was using the Alpha version of the 18 GHz input card. The Panasonic and Kaleidescape work for 4k24 HDR with the current 9 GHz input cards in 4:2:2 12-bit mode. We also have the Roku4, the Amazon Fire, and the nVidea Shield, but I am not sure how much testing Patrick has done for these and HDR. Certainly these later have been tested with the Pro in 4k though.


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi Jim,
I have a question regarding 4k and HDR / BT2020.
Right now, HDR and BT2020 is always seen in the context of 4K because otherwise it is no sources. When I look at the flow chart of Radiance Pro carried the scaling before color correction.
Is there a firm connection between HDR / BT2020 and 4K or it is possible HDR / BT2020 also outputting 1080p24 (4.2.2 10 or 12 Bit)?
The question may sound stupid but it refers to the way in 1080p24 to use an FI that does not work at 4K (i.e. Sony VW1100ES).


Peter


----------



## jrp

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi Jim,
> I have a question regarding 4k and HDR / BT2020.
> Right now, HDR and BT2020 is always seen in the context of 4K because otherwise it is no sources. When I look at the flow chart of Radiance Pro carried the scaling before color correction.
> Is there a firm connection between HDR / BT2020 and 4K or it is possible HDR / BT2020 also outputting 1080p24 (4.2.2 10 or 12 Bit)?
> The question may sound stupid but it refers to the way in 1080p24 to use an FI that does not work at 4K (i.e. Sony VW1100ES). Peter


Peter:

While HDR and Rec 2020 do not always have to be 4k. However, I do not know of any content providers that are supporting HDR or Rec 2020 at other than 4k resolution for consumer sources. 

If your question is if the Radiance Pro can take the 4k HDR/Rec2020 sources and output them at 1080p the answer is yes. In fact the Radiance Pro can extend the life of a quality 1080p TV/projector by allowing it to be calibrated for HDR and Rec 2020 to the best of its capabilities. So the Radiance Pro can downscale HDR/Rec2020 to 1080p, and use the calibration to display 4k UHD HDR/Rec2020 material on a 1080p TV/projector. 

Or you can then send it to the Sony at 1080p to get FI (which I don't like, especially for film source, but many do).


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> If your question is if the Radiance Pro can take the 4k HDR/Rec2020 sources and output them at 1080p the answer is yes. In fact the Radiance Pro can extend the life of a quality 1080p TV/projector by allowing it to be calibrated for HDR and Rec 2020 to the best of its capabilities. So the Radiance Pro can downscale HDR/Rec2020 to 1080p, and use the calibration to display 4k UHD HDR/Rec2020 material on a 1080p TV/projector.


In addition to your posting: someone will need a HD-Fury or something similar so the Radiance Pro can downscale the 4k source to 2k. That's because of HDCP2.2.


----------



## OMARDRIS

jrp said:


> If your question is if the Radiance Pro can take the 4k HDR/Rec2020 sources and output them at 1080p the answer is yes. In fact the Radiance Pro can extend the life of a quality 1080p TV/projector by allowing it to be calibrated for HDR and Rec 2020 to the best of its capabilities. So the Radiance Pro can downscale HDR/Rec2020 to 1080p, and use the calibration to display 4k UHD HDR/Rec2020 material on a 1080p TV/projector.
> 
> Or you can then send it to the Sony at 1080p to get FI (which I don't like, especially for film source, but many do).


 
Hi Jim,
Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted to hear 


Peter


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Nudgiator said:


> In addition to your posting: someone will need a HD-Fury or something similar so the Radiance Pro can downscale the 4k source to 2k. That's because of HDCP2.2.


Not in the case of the scenario being discussed with the Sony VW1100. It is hdcp 2.2 compliant. I would have expected it would work without the need for the HDCP convertor. Other displays would require such a device as you say.


----------



## Nudgiator

Gordon Fraser said:


> Not in the case of the scenario being discussed with the Sony VW1100. It is hdcp 2.2 compliant.


Yes, that's true for the VW1100 (when he wants 1080p24 for the FI). But look what Jim wrote:



> In fact the Radiance Pro can extend the life of a quality *1080p TV/projector* by allowing it to be calibrated for HDR and Rec 2020 to the best of its capabilities. *So the Radiance Pro can downscale HDR/Rec2020 to 1080p, and use the calibration to display 4k UHD HDR/Rec2020 material on a 1080p TV/projector.*


For this you will need e.g. an HD-Fury when the 1080p TV/projector does not support HDCP2.2 (I assume that no 1080p device supports HDCP2.2).



> I would have expected it would work without the need for the HDCP convertor.


That's true for the VW1100, because it supports HDCP2.2.


----------



## FreMo

I have a 2.35 screen with a projector.
I can t find the good setting to display 16:9 movies using Non Linear Stretch on the 2.35 screen.
Please could you help me.


----------



## OMARDRIS

jrp said:


> Allow me to suggest a 10 foot Monoprice Cabernet Redmere cable to the projector and an appropriate length Monoprice Cabernet Redmere cable to the AVR.


Hi Jim,
Yesterday a Monoprice Cabernet Ultra Cl2 Active High Speed Hdmi Cable-25ft arrived. But the problems with the connection between the Radiance Pro and my VW1100ES persist. Very often i get a connection but no picture. Only when I reboot the Radiance. But if a change of resolution then to be processed, I have to restart it again.
Yes I know that the cable must be properly connected to source and Display 

The new cable works without problems directly between all sources and the projector.


The best and most stable solution that I have currently is a 2m passive cable of "Cable direct Pro Series" between Radiance and projector. Between Radiance and source then does a 5 m cable.

You have to give a lot of effort to win the love of this Equipment. :kiss:
Peter


----------



## FreMo

FreMo said:


> I have a 2.35 screen with a projector.
> I can t find the good setting to display 16:9 movies using Non Linear Stretch on the 2.35 screen.
> Please could you help me.


To bring more details on my problem, I have set a 2.35 aspect ratio to the screen but I don t understand why I have to add also top and botton Shrink values to make the aspect ratio correct for 16:9 media.


----------



## netroamer

FreMo said:


> To bring more details on my problem, I have set a 2.35 aspect ratio to the screen but I don t understand why I have to add also top and botton Shrink values to make the aspect ratio correct for 16:9 media.


To have the Lumagen properly scale 1:78 to a 2:35 screen, you must first zoom out the projector to fill the screen completely left and right. The shrink is then used to scale the 1:78 image to fit within the top/bottom of the screen. It will then also be correct for 2:35.


----------



## jrp

FreMo said:


> To bring more details on my problem, I have set a 2.35 aspect ratio to the screen but I don t understand why I have to add also top and bottom Shrink values to make the aspect ratio correct for 16:9 media.


The top and botttom shrink factor applies to 2.35 and 16:9 material (and any aspect). So it is part of the setup to have the correct aspect ratios.

You can contact us at [email protected] for setup help, or give us a call at 503-574-2211


----------



## telem

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi Jim,
> Yesterday a Monoprice Cabernet Ultra Cl2 Active High Speed Hdmi Cable-25ft arrived. But the problems with the connection between the Radiance Pro and my VW1100ES persist. Very often i get a connection but no picture. Only when I reboot the Radiance. But if a change of resolution then to be processed, I have to restart it again.
> Yes I know that the cable must be properly connected to source and Display
> 
> The new cable works without problems directly between all sources and the projector.
> 
> 
> The best and most stable solution that I have currently is a 2m passive cable of "Cable direct Pro Series" between Radiance and projector. Between Radiance and source then does a 5 m cable.
> 
> You have to give a lot of effort to win the love of this Equipment. :kiss:
> Peter


I have a similar problem. I get a connection and I can see that the VW1100ES receives a signal but there is no way to see picture. 
I have upgraded the Radiance Pro to the latest firmware today. No change.
Sources connected to the Radiance Pro are a Kaleidescape Strato, a Panasonic UB900, a Roku 4 and Sky Digital UK(not 4k or hdcp 2.2) I have picture from Sky but not from the others and I cannot understand why. I've tested three different active HDMI cables(15m Rad-->Sony and 3m sources-->Radiance, 4k 18gbps certified) from different brands so it can't be a cable issue. Everything obviously works when I switch the Radiance Pro to HDCP 1.x.
When I connect the same sources to the Sony directly they work, so I can only assume that the problem is somewhere between the Radiance Pro and the Sony. Another Lumagen output is connected to a Samsung TV JS9500(Hdmi 3), no problem there, everything works. 
Anyway I am about to pull the trigger and buy the VW5000ES. But if I do so, I won't have it before at least a month.. Any ideas in the meantime?


----------



## SJHT

Wonder if the EDID from your projector is telling the pro it is not HDCP 2.2. I have a second display connected to my Pro that is 1.x and it does what you are decribing as the pro shuts down the output for 2.2 inputs. Just guessing. SJ


----------



## henrich3

I had the following issues after the 071616 update:

- Video dropouts every 30 seconds or so.
- No Rec.2020 output. 
- "Auto" resolution option defaults to the wrong output rez.
- Defaults to HDCP 1.x for HDCP 2.2 sources.

The input color space was Rec.2020, but the output was Rec.709:


















I tried hardcoding Rec.2020 as the output color space, but that didn't help. The dropouts & color space issues existed using both Samsung and Phillips UHD players as sources.

I noticed that by default the Pro takes an input resolution of *3840*x2160 and changes it to *4096*x2160. I'll go back and hardcode the correct output rez, but it would be nice if the Pro's "auto" resolution setting chose the correct output rez by default. I also had to manually change the Pro's HDCP 1.x input setting to 2.x. It should auto-negotiate 2.x for UHD/2.2 sources.

If I connect the players directly to my display (RS600), Rec.2020 is delivered to the pj and there are no dropouts. My HDMI cables are all "Premium Certified" Blue Jeans Series-FE cables - 5' from the players to the Pro, and 15' Pro to pj.

As discussed earlier, the Pro won't be fully functional for my needs until it can be calibrated. I await an HDR to SDR tone mapping solution before I schedule the calibration. (Clipping all the HDR luminance levels would result in unacceptable white crush artifacts.) I'm not sure if this is something that needs to be fully implemented in the calibration software (my calibrator uses LightSpace), the Pro, or a combination of the Pro using a Shaping LUT and the calibration SW. I consider this to be a show-stopper level issue for my needs. I assume that this is already being worked. I just wanted to mention it however...


----------



## sillysally

It looks like the REC2020 out will not work until we get the proper HDMI input card. 
So basically, until we get the proper HDMI card, this update didn't change much.

I made a 3DLUT REC2020 using LightSpace, installed it in the Pro CMS memory as the default REC2020 for HRD.
The Pro inputs and outputs the same as your screen shot, but it does change the the CMS to my default REC.2020.

Someone posted that they start there TV (EF9500 4K OLED) and source player (K8500) before they start the Pro, that seems to be working for me.
The memory will input/output what ever is saved for the settings. The only exception is if I am streaming a GB (english) show ([email protected]), the Pro will input Rec.709, [email protected], 4:2:0 and output the same. The PQ is very good with not much judder, however if I had the Pro output 2160P @24 I would get a lot of Judder. 

On a side note, LightSpace has a new working color engine for making the 3DLUT conversion.
Those are Fix Chroma and Fit Chroma, I suggest you have your calibrator make three 3DLUT's (Peak, Fix and Fit Chroma) from the same profile.

ss


----------



## henrich3

sillysally said:


> It looks like the REC2020 out will not work until we get the proper HDMI input card.
> So basically, until we get the proper HDMI card, this update didn't change much.


The current I/O cards are 9 Gbps which should support 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit. If we can get that in & out of the Pro (EDID advertising?), I would expect UHD to work, including HDR & Rec.2020.

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Nudgiator

henrich3 said:


> The current I/O cards are 9 Gbps which should support 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit. If we can get that in & out of the Pro (EDID advertising?), I would expect UHD to work, including HDR & Rec.2020.


You are wrong for the Samsung K8500. The K8500 ALWAYS (!) outputs REC.2020/HDR with 4:4:4 .... and that's not possible with a 9 GHz card. So the K8500 converts to REC.709/HDR with 4:4:4. The Panasonic UB900 does not use REC.2020/HDR with 4:4:4 ... so HDR etc. is working with the 9 GHz cards.


----------



## Nudgiator

sillysally said:


> It looks like the REC2020 out will not work until we get the proper HDMI input card.
> So basically, until we get the proper HDMI card, this update didn't change much.


The Panasonic UB900 is working with HDR/BT.2020 and the 9 GHz cards, the K8500 not. That's a problem of Samsung, not of Lumagen


----------



## henrich3

Nudgiator said:


> You are wrong for the Samsung K8500. The K8500 ALWAYS (!) outputs REC.2020/HDR with 4:4:4 .... and that's not possible with a 9 GHz card. So the K8500 converts to REC.709/HDR with 4:4:4. The Panasonic UB900 does not use REC.2020/HDR with 4:4:4 ... so HDR etc. is working with the 9 GHz cards.


I can get 4:2:2 out of the Samsung with an EDID manipulating device like the HDFury Integral. Why not with the Pro?

You can see from my screenshot that I was getting Rec.2020 into the Pro. The Pro took that Rec.2020 input color space and output Rec.709. That's either a Pro FW issue or there's a configuration change that I need to make. If it's settings, then I await enlightenment. I had the same symptoms (dropouts and Rec.2020 to Rec.709 conversion) using a Phillips BDP7501 UHD player, so it's not a Samsung problem.


----------



## sillysally

Nudgiator said:


> The Panasonic UB900 is working with HDR/BT.2020 and the 9 GHz cards, the K8500 not. That's a problem of Samsung, not of Lumagen


Actually Jim has said the K8500 works with the new alpha 18G card.
So we can wait for the full release 18G card or get the alpha 18G card now. That is if we want to use are K8500 source player in HDR 2020 mode.

ss


----------



## Nudgiator

sillysally said:


> Actually Jim has said the K8500 works with the new alpha 18G card.
> So we can wait for the full release 18G card or get the alpha 18G card now. That is if we want to use are K8500 source player in HDR 2020 mode.


Exactly that


----------



## Nudgiator

henrich3 said:


> I had the same symptoms (dropouts and Rec.2020 to Rec.709 conversion) using a Phillips BDP7501 UHD player, so it's not a Samsung problem.


I can only speak for Rec.2020/HDR ... and believe me ... it's a problem of the K8500 ... I have talked about that with Patrick from Lumagen ... he has tested it  Try to use the K8500 with a TV/projector which only supports 10,2 Gbps ... then you will see the same behavior.


----------



## henrich3

Nudgiator said:


> I can only speak for Rec.2020/HDR ... and believe me ... it's a problem of the K8500 ... I have talked about that with Patrick from Lumagen ... he has tested it  Try to use the K8500 with a TV/projector which only supports 10,2 Gbps ... then you will see the same behavior.


I have two UHD BD players, Phillips & Samsung, that have the same symptoms. Both work fine when connected directly to my RS600, but both have problems (dropouts & no Rec.2020) if the Radiance is inline. The Radiance Info screen reports that it's receiving Rec.2020 and outputting Rec.709. I think it's probable that either the Pro FW needs an update or that I've misconfigured a setting. In either case, unless someone has a suggestion as to a setting that I should change or new FW that I can try, I intend on removing my Pro from the signal path until this gets sorted. 

If a source is sending data at too high a bandwidth, that's still a Radiance issue. As mentioned earlier, an Integral can get a source to lower it's bandwidth by advertising the desired capabilities using EDID. If the Pro needs 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit to accomodate its 9 Gbps Input boards, then it's the Radiance's responsibility to advertise that to the source. If it can't do that, then we all need 18 Gbps input boards (or Integrals).

The Pro is running beta firmware, so it's understandable and even expected that there will be issues for a while. I was just passing along my findings. YMMV.


----------



## Nudgiator

henrich3 said:


> I have two UHD BD players, Phillips & Samsung, that have the same symptoms. Both work fine when connected directly to my RS600, but both have problems (dropouts & no Rec.2020) if the Radiance is inline.


I am also owner of a JVC projector (DLA-X7000). There is an easy explanation why it's working correctly when you connect the K8500 directly with the X7000: the X7000 uses 18 GHz HDMI input cards 



> The Radiance Info screen reports that it's receiving Rec.2020 and outputting Rec.709. I think it's probable that either the Pro FW needs an update or that I've misconfigured a setting.


As said before: the PRO needs 18 GHz input cards for the K8500. Believe me: Patrick from Lumagen has checked this.



> If a source is sending data at too high a bandwidth, that's still a Radiance issue.


No, that's a problem of the K8500 and the idiotic decision to output HDR/2020 always with 444 



> As mentioned earlier, an Integral can get a source to lower it's bandwidth by advertising the desired capabilities using EDID. If the Pro needs 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit to accomodate its 9 Gbps Input boards, then it's the Radiance's responsibility to advertise that to the source.


Maybe that's not possible at the moment. That's a question for Patrick/Jim from Lumagen.



> If it can't do that, then we all need 18 Gbps input boards (or Integrals).


That's true for the K8500 at the moment. But there are also rumors that Samsung will change the behavior of the K8500 with one of the next FW updates.


----------



## henrich3

I did discover a problem with my Pro's config. There are separate CMS settings in the Pro for SD and UHD. The UHD CMS was set to Default, so after changing that to CMS1 my Pro can output Rec.2020:










I was still getting dropouts after the change. I expect that the Pro's EDID could be modified to tell the source (Samsung K8500) to output 4:2:2 which would drop the data rate to 9 Gbps and hopefully resolve the dropouts.


----------



## tspotorno

Received the 18ghz card today...

I should be able to get it installed tonight.

I thought there was a question on whether or not both HDMI ports would be 18ghz or just one of them on the card? If one, I'm assuming it is the left port?


----------



## thecodeman

Sorry for the trivial question, but I have a Pro here and every time the input is switched the Darbee menu pops up "enabled/mode/gain/step by" and doesn't go away for some number of minutes. Is there any way to turn this menu/notification off?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

thecodeman said:


> Sorry for the trivial question, but I have a Pro here and every time the input is switched the Darbee menu pops up "enabled/mode/gain/step by" and doesn't go away for some number of minutes. Is there any way to turn this menu/notification off?


There should be no reason for the darbee menu to pop up. Are you using a control system? If so it would seem a wrong command is being sent. Also if you use ir commands a right cursor command will throw that menu up..but in normal operation of just selecting an input you should not see that.


----------



## OMARDRIS

jrp said:


> We have an additional feature to implement in the FPGA as part of the work on calibration. This is a "Shaping LUT." Note that a shaping LUT is different than the Tone Mapping being discussed. The shaping LUT is a 1D LUT meant to better match the input Max Light Level to the projector/TV maximum light output. We are discussing Tone Mapping but that is not in the near term plan and it may be that the video calibration pipeline in the Radiance Pro already has the needed flexibility and that calibration software does all the work for tone mapping.



Hi Jim,
I have sent a post in the Light Space forum:

**************
To all HDR/BT2020 specialists.

I'm doing my first attempts at an HDR signal to send to my projector Sony VW1100ES (Non HDR/BT2020).
The UHD player Samsung K8500 sends HDR/709 (4.4.4 8 Bit) to the Radiance Pro. The Radiance then also sends HDR/709 the VW1100ES.
Right now, I can not yet received HDR/BT2020 (4.4.4 12 Bit) from the K8500 because the Radiance does not have a 18GHz input.
For VW1100ES I created a Quick-profile (141) with Light Space. I have taken the 709/D65 REF-mode with the most light. At 100 IRE I have about 100 nits and 0 IRE approximately 0.01 Nit (Screen width is 3m). The color space is 709. Gamma is off, but it comes out 2.2. Brightness and contrast are set correctly. All image enhancer is turned off. The RGB-Separation looks good. The RGB-Balance is ok.

With Light Space a LUT for ST2084/709 was created (Fit Chroma). Basically, it works well.
With a "Null cube" you can clearly see that the image is too bright, because the projector can not interpret the HDR Signal correctly.
But with the ST2084/709 Cube the picture is clearly too dark. If you lift the brightness, the picture is much better and has clearly HDR character.
If I change the transfer curve from 10000 to 1000 or 100 nits, it gets worse.
At what point do I have to change something? 
At the moment it is not about the final accuracy, but just about the right size.
***********

It may be that I just tested too early and initially the new "Shaping LUT" must be implemented in order to supply NON-HDR/BT2020 displays?


Supplement:
Today I created a ST2084/709 Cube with Calman5. The result is good, maybe a little too bright. 
I do obviously something wrong with Light Space 

Peter


----------



## thecodeman

Gordon Fraser said:


> There should be no reason for the darbee menu to pop up. Are you using a control system? If so it would seem a wrong command is being sent. Also if you use ir commands a right cursor command will throw that menu up..but in normal operation of just selecting an input you should not see that.


I am - Control4 with the driver provided by Lumagen/Martijn Glasbeek, RS232 only at the moment just for on/off/input switching. There's an IR one that you have to use as well for other features ( which seems cumbersome to have two different drivers and control methods) but we aren't currently using it. 

However I've also noticed that it pops up when using the IR remote as well to select an input. Maybe I need to factory reset the unit and try again.


----------



## turls

thecodeman said:


> I am - Control4 with the driver provided by Lumagen/Martijn Glasbeek, RS232 only at the moment just for on/off/input switching. There's an IR one that you have to use as well for other features ( which seems cumbersome to have two different drivers and control methods) but we aren't currently using it.
> 
> However I've also noticed that it pops up when using the IR remote as well to select an input. Maybe I need to factory reset the unit and try again.


You need a newer driver (this is a bug in the driver that wasn't an issue on previous Radiance units). Joe knows how to get a hold of me or PM me 

(I had the same issue)

Also, Jim would give it to you. I am not sure if there a reason it has not been posted, or this is just an oversight.


----------



## jrp

henrich3 said:


> I did discover a problem with my Pro's config. There are separate CMS settings in the Pro for SD and UHD. The UHD CMS was set to Default, so after changing that to CMS1 my Pro can output Rec.2020:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was still getting dropouts after the change. I expect that the Pro's EDID could be modified to tell the source (Samsung K8500) to output 4:2:2 which would drop the data rate to 9 Gbps and hopefully resolve the dropouts.


Lots of posts to address. I will start with the quoted message and cover the others after that.

The Pro does advertise all modes it supports. It is up to the source to pick the correct one for the source (4k24, HDR, Rec2020, 4:2:2, etc.). So while the Pro advertises 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2 the Samsung UHD player refuses to output this rate which artificially and unnecessarily ups the required Pro input card from 9 GHz to 18 GHz for 24p movies. The good news is that the Kaleidescape Strato and the Panasonic UHD player both to the right thing and output 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2, for HDR 24p movies. So they work fine for HDR using the 9 GHz Pro input card.

There is nothing "improper" about a 9 GHz input card as implied in one post. What is improper in my opinion is that source devices fail to support appropriate modes (like 4:2:2) to (they think) reduce the number of support calls. I have no problem if they do not automatically select 4:2:2, as is done for the Radiance output, but it seems capricious to not allow an advanced user to at least manually select it. There are a number of TVs and projectors that inexplicably get 4:2:2 wrong (mostly contouring where there should be none). So making one manually select 4:2:2 is a reasonable option.

The screen shot shows the Samsung outputting 4:4:4 10-bit. This is about 25% over the rated input rate of the 9 GHz cards. I am surprised the image works at all and not surprised that with this much overclock that there are dropouts.

The 071616 release is the first HDR release and so there may well be some compatibility issues with some devices. If you are having issues please email us at [email protected] so we can work to resolve them.

On the VW1100ES, make sure to use Input 2. Same for the other Sony 4k projectors, except I am told both HDMI inputs on the VW5000ES are HDCP 2.2.

If you have a solid signal with a short HDMI cable from the Radiance Pro to your projector and not a long cable (and it does not matter if you have a signal with another device with that same long cable), then it is certain you need a better HDMI cable. Perhaps you need to switch to an active HDMI cable. The output edge rates on the Pro are perhaps faster than other devices, but we do no have control of these as they are set in the output chip. This may mean you need a better cable than with other devices. I just tested the Tributaries 10 meter 18 GHz active cable and it works well at 18 GHz to a Pro input, and 9 Ghz on the 9 GHz Pro output. So if the Monoprice is not working this could be an option.

If you are using RS232 and see the Info Screen come up, it means more carriage returns ("") were sent than needed. You can turn this feature off by entering MENU 0927 and then doing a Save.

If you got the Control4 driver from our website, the old version had an issue that brings up teh Darbee menu on any unit with Darbee. There is now a newer Control4 driver that corrects the issue that brought up the Darbee menu (avswitch_Lumagen_Radiance_RS232.c4i). The link is: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control. Please download and try this new version.

For the Alpha level card, only the odd port is 18 GHz due to a CAD tool giving me bad information on the trace/space of the input wires. Our goal is that the production cards (due end of August if all goes well) have both ports working at 18 GHz, but until we have them back and test them we will not know for sure if we have met this goal.

The output as HDR/Rec2020 should work with the Default LUT. So this is a bug if it only with with a programmable CMS memory.

At the time of this post, none of the calibration software programs can correctly calibrate the Radiance Pro when using HDR or Rec2020. This is because the operation is different for these than Rec 709 and the changes need to be put in the software programs before they will do the correct calibration. The Shaping LUT plays into this and it is something we are working on at Lumagen with the calibration software companies.


----------



## Manni01

Hi Jim,

How do you deduct from the screenshot that the Samsung is sending 10bits 4:4:4? It could be sending 8bits 4:4:4, which would be even more moronic as it could be sending 12bits 4:2:2 but would explain why it can fit within the 10gb/s bandwidth.

Also if the user has an Integral or similar between the source and the Radiance that converts HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.4, that might lower the bandwidth enough for it to fit (I haven't done the maths so could be wrong, but HDCP 2.2 definitely requires more bandwidth).

It would be nice to get the bit depth and the actual bitrate on the Radiance info screen, even if only for debug purposes.

The Panasonic player displays this info and it's very useful (even if it's no guarantee that it's what's actually received by the radiance/display).


----------



## Nudgiator

Manni01 said:


> It would be nice to get the bit depth and the actual bitrate on the Radiance info screen, even if only for debug purposes.


100% agreement!!!


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> The Pro does advertise all modes it supports. It is up to the source to pick the correct one for the source (4k24, HDR, Rec2020, 4:2:2, etc.). So while the Pro advertises 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2 the Samsung UHD player refuses to output this rate which artificially and unnecessarily ups the required Pro input card from 9 GHz to 18 GHz for 24p movies.


I played around with the Pro and an Integral tonight. I wasn't able to get the Samsung player to output 4:2:2. When the Integral was configured to force a color depth lower than 4:4:4, the K8500 switched to RGB/SDR.

I then tried my Phillips UHD player. That player was able to output 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit, with or without the Integral. (The player's "_HDMI _-> _4K/60p Output_" setting has to be changed to "_4K/60p(4:2:0)_" for this to work.)

Here's a pic showing both the Pro and player info screens:









Surprisingly, I was still getting video dropouts every 30 - 60 seconds even though the player was outputting a 9 Gbps signal to the Pro. I tried both the Pro's Output 2 and Output 4, but the dropouts occurred on both ports. There were no dropouts when the Pro was removed from the signal path however. Firmware issue?


----------



## jrp

henrich3:

What are you meaning by "drop-out." Do you lose video for a frame, several frames, or how-long?

It could be a firmware FPGA timing issue. Does it work correctly with an earlier software release? If so which one?

Do note that even if it works without the Radiance, it could still be an HDMI cable issue, even if the cable works with a different device.

If it happens on both outputs at the same time, it could be the input HDMI cable from the source. Does it happen with more than one source? Make sure you have a 6 foot or longer passive HDMI cable from sources.

Please email us at [email protected] so we can work with you to figure this out and get it resolved.


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> 1) How do you deduct from the screenshot that the Samsung is sending 10bits 4:4:4? It could be sending 8bits 4:4:4, which would be even more moronic as it could be sending 12bits 4:2:2 but would explain why it can fit within the 10gb/s bandwidth.
> 
> 2) Also if the user has an Integral or similar between the source and the Radiance that converts HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.4, that might lower the bandwidth enough for it to fit (I haven't done the maths so could be wrong, but HDCP 2.2 definitely requires more bandwidth).
> 
> 3) It would be nice to get the bit depth and the actual bitrate on the Radiance info screen, even if only for debug purposes. The Panasonic player displays this info and it's very useful (even if it's no guarantee that it's what's actually received by the radiance/display).


1) I am assuming they do what is expected and output the 10-bit HDR source at 10-bit. You could be right about the Samsung outputting 8-bit for HDR.

2) If the device can convert 10-bit 4:4:4 HDR to 12-bit 4:2:2 then for 24p movies that puts it at the 9 GHz bit rate. HDCP is not a factor for this though.

3) We are considering adding more information in the Info and Debug pages.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> 1) I am assuming they do what is expected and output the 10-bit HDR source at 10-bit. You could be right about the Samsung outputting 8-bit for HDR.
> 
> 2) If the device can convert 10-bit 4:4:4 HDR to 12-bit 4:2:2 then for 24p movies that puts it at the 9 GHz bit rate. HDCP is not a factor for this though.
> 
> 3) We are considering adding more information in the Info and Debug pages.




Thanks Jim.


My understanding is that HDCP 2.2 takes more bandwidth than HDCP 1.4. For example, it's HDCP 2.2 that makes it impossible to carry protected 4K 10bit 4:4:4 content at 60p even over the 18Gb/s of HDMI 2.x. Although I haven't tried, I think it would just be possible to carry unprotected 4K 10bits 4:4:4 60p content, say a PC desktop, over the 18Gb/s of HDMI 2.x (again, haven't done the maths or tried).


Are you saying that HDCP 2.2 wouldn't be a factor in the specific situation we were discussing (which could absolutely be the case, as I said I haven't done the math) or that in general HDCP 2.2 isn't a factor re bandwidth? If the latter, then I would have misunderstood something and would need to get to the bottom of this with other sources.


Great to hear you're considering adding more information on the info and debug page!


----------



## jrp

turls said:


> You need a newer driver (this is a bug in the driver that wasn't an issue on previous Radiance units). Joe knows how to get a hold of me or PM me
> 
> (I had the same issue)
> 
> Also, Jim would give it to you. I am not sure if there a reason it has not been posted, or this is just an oversight.


The new Control4 serial driver is posted on the Utilities page on the Lumagen website. The new Control4 driver has been used by at least a few now and seems to be working well. Here us the URL:

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control

The Control4 drivers are on an as-is basis and have not been written by Lumagen. We would like to thank the dealers who have contributed to drivers on our website.


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Thanks Jim.
> 
> My understanding is that HDCP 2.2 takes more bandwidth than HDCP 1.4. For example, it's HDCP 2.2 that makes it impossible to carry protected 4K 10bit 4:4:4 content at 60p even over the 18Gb/s of HDMI 2.x. Although I haven't tried, I think it would just be possible to carry unprotected 4K 10bits 4:4:4 60p content, say a PC desktop, over the 18Gb/s of HDMI 2.x (again, haven't done the maths or tried).
> 
> Are you saying that HDCP 2.2 wouldn't be a factor in the specific situation we were discussing (which could absolutely be the case, as I said I haven't done the math) or that in general HDCP 2.2 isn't a factor re bandwidth? If the latter, then I would have misunderstood something and would need to get to the bottom of this with other sources.


HDCP encryption really has nothing to do with the video resolution. It is possible to send 4k HDR using HDCP 1.X. Of course the source providers are choosing to send HDCP 2.2, but it is not technically required.

The encryption does not (significantly) affect, and is not affected by, the data rate. The data rate reduction discussed is due to changing from 4:4:4 10-bit to 4:2:2 12-bit.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> HDCP encryption really has nothing to do with the video resolution. It is possible to send 4k HDR using HDCP 1.X. Of course the source providers are choosing to send HDCP 2.2, but it is not technically required.
> 
> The encryption does not (significantly) affect, and is not affected by, the data rate. The data rate reduction discussed is due to changing from 4:4:4 10-bit to 4:2:2 12-bit.


Of course HDCP 2.2 has nothing to do with resolution and is not technically required, that's not what I was talking about.

Adding the HDCP 2.2 protection does, however, add *some* bandwidth load which can make the difference between the content fitting in the 9Gb/s or 18Gb/s maximum bandwidth or not.

The last example I gave was the impossibility to fit 4K 4:4:4 10bit at 60p in the maximum HDMI 2.0 bandwidth of 18gb/s (which is a serious oversight from whoever presided in the definition of the new standard as it means protected UHD Bluray content at 60p needs to be downconverted in some way) while the same content unprotected or converted to HDCP 1.4 might fit the same pipe.

In these borderline situations, a small bandwidth increase can become significant, that's the only point I was trying to make, as a way to explain why possibly the content mentioned in the case you were discussing could fit the 9gb/s bandwidth when in theory it shouldn't (provided the reason isn't because Samsun downscaled chroma to 8bit as I also suggested).


----------



## Nudgiator

I have talked with Patrick about the K8500 and HDR. He said that the K8500 outputs HDR/709 with 8 Bit and 4:4:4.


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> What are you meaning by "drop-out." Do you lose video for a frame, several frames, or how-long?
> 
> It could be a firmware FPGA timing issue. Does it work correctly with an earlier software release? If so which one?
> 
> Do note that even if it works without the Radiance, it could still be an HDMI cable issue, even if the cable works with a different device.
> 
> If it happens on both outputs at the same time, it could be the input HDMI cable from the source. Does it happen with more than one source? Make sure you have a 6 foot or longer passive HDMI cable from sources.
> 
> Please email us at [email protected] so we can work with you to figure this out and get it resolved.


The video dropouts are blackouts that are a second or less long, which I assume is several frames.

Since the Radiance Pro wasn't compatible with Rec.2020/HDR prior to the current FW release, I had removed the Pro from the video path until the latest FW came out. I don't know how well it worked before then.

I use a 15' Blue Jeans Series-FE Premium Certified HDMI cable to my RS600, and 5' Series-FE cables between devices in my equipment rack (eg. UHD players to Pro). My long & short cables work fine without the Pro inline, eg. _Phillips BDP7501 -> Integral -> RS600_. If I replace the Integral in that path with the Pro, I have dropouts. Same cables.

Based on that troubleshooting, the dropouts seem to be a Pro issue (FW or my Pro config). I'm a bit surprised that others haven't reported the same problem. (I assume that most Pro users have the Samsung player which has known problems that can't be fixed without an 18 Gbps input board upgrade. The Phillips and Panasonic UHD players should work at 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit however, so I wonder if other Panny/Phillips owners are able to display UHD/HDR though the Pro without issues.) I generally prefer to post about issues here versus support emails to Lumagen so that others are aware of potential problems. If you believe that the dropouts are specific to my config however, I can work directly with Lumagen to sort it out.

Thank you!


----------



## MJV29

Nudgiator said:


> I have talked with Patrick about the K8500 and HDR. He said that the K8500 outputs HDR/709 with 8 Bit and 4:4:4.


That's what my Lumagen is showing with the Samsung. I'm new to all this but I have the Input at 4K 2020 and output on auto and it keeps giving me 709 8bit even with movies. They actually look really good but wish Samsung would change the output to 4:2:2 12 bit.


----------



## netroamer

Nudgiator said:


> I have talked with Patrick about the K8500 and HDR. He said that the K8500 outputs HDR/709 with 8 Bit and 4:4:4.


To be more specific; the menus are 4:2:0 BT709 8bit. A 4k movie is 4:4:4 BT709 8 bit. This is from my Muredio Analyzer hooked up directly to the 8500.


----------



## MJV29

Nudgiator, you are correct. Movies are 4:4:4 BT709 8 bit RGB as well from the Samsung 8500. 

Not sure why Samsung did this? Seems pretty dumb to me.


----------



## Nudgiator

MJV29 said:


> Nudgiator, you are correct. Movies are 4:4:4 BT709 8 bit RGB as well from the Samsung 8500.
> 
> Not sure why Samsung did this? Seems pretty dumb to me.


Yes, it is very dumb  I heard rumors about changing it by Samsung ... but we will see ...


----------



## SJHT

Wonder if it was primarily designed to pair with a Samsung TV? Maybe not too smart.... SJ


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> The new Control4 serial driver is posted on the Utilities page on the Lumagen website. The new Control4 driver has been used by at least a few now and seems to be working well. Here us the URL:
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control
> 
> The Control4 drivers are on an as-is basis and have not been written by Lumagen. We would like to thank the dealers who have contributed to drivers on our website.


Sorry about that Jim, I made the poor assumption that you hadn't updated the driver on that page since when you gave it to me a few months back I don't think it was posted yet.


----------



## Mark_H

henrich3 said:


> The video dropouts are blackouts that are a second or less long, which I assume is several frames.


I saw similar the other day. The film was a 24fps rather than the usual 23.9, and I'm sure I've seen, and reported, this before. Do you have genlock activated? That also doesn't work well yet and can lead to dropouts.


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz input cards - inputs labeled?*

Possibly a stupid question, but will the Pro 18 GHz input cards have labels on the inputs so we know which is which?

Mike


----------



## henrich3

Mark_H said:


> I saw similar the other day. The film was a 24fps rather than the usual 23.9, and I'm sure I've seen, and reported, this before. Do you have genlock activated? That also doesn't work well yet and can lead to dropouts.


I thought the Genlock feature was still disabled. No?

What player are you using? Were you sending 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit to the Pro when the dropouts occurred?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mike_WI said:


> Possibly a stupid question, but will the Pro 18 GHz input cards have labels on the inputs so we know which is which?
> 
> Mike


they will come with little sticky labels to put on rear panel so you can see which are 18Ghz enabled.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

henrich3 said:


> I thought the Genlock feature was still disabled. No?
> 
> What player are you using? Were you sending 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit to the Pro when the dropouts occurred?


Genlock is in the current firmware. Lumagen have altered their methodology for genlock in current iteration and are considering further options...genlock is a work in progress rather than a finished feature at this time i believe.


----------



## SJHT

I turned Genlock OFF as I was having some issues with it. Assumed it really wasn't done yet.... SJ


----------



## jrp

henrich3 said:


> The video dropouts are blackouts that are a second or less long, which I assume is several frames.
> 
> Since the Radiance Pro wasn't compatible with Rec.2020/HDR prior to the current FW release, I had removed the Pro from the video path until the latest FW came out. I don't know how well it worked before then.
> 
> I use a 15' Blue Jeans Series-FE Premium Certified HDMI cable to my RS600, and 5' Series-FE cables between devices in my equipment rack (eg. UHD players to Pro). My long & short cables work fine without the Pro inline, eg. _Phillips BDP7501 -> Integral -> RS600_. If I replace the Integral in that path with the Pro, I have dropouts. Same cables.
> 
> Based on that troubleshooting, the dropouts seem to be a Pro issue (FW or my Pro config). I'm a bit surprised that others haven't reported the same problem. (I assume that most Pro users have the Samsung player which has known problems that can't be fixed without an 18 Gbps input board upgrade. The Phillips and Panasonic UHD players should work at 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit however, so I wonder if other Panny/Phillips owners are able to display UHD/HDR though the Pro without issues.) I generally prefer to post about issues here versus support emails to Lumagen so that others are aware of potential problems. If you believe that the dropouts are specific to my config however, I can work directly with Lumagen to sort it out.
> 
> Thank you!


Your about 1 second drop out sounds exactly like something an HDMI cable issue could cause. That is unless you are sending the Pro a signal above its rated 9 GHz (which the Samsung UHD player would for HDR source). I will assume this is happening with non-HDR source, since it is not going to work with the Samsung outputting 4k24 HDR at 4:4:4 10-bit until you get a 18 GHz input card for the Pro (or they add the missing 4:2:2 12-bit output format).

Saying a cable works with different equipment is apples and oranges. The Pro output edge rates seem to be faster than other devices and so need better cables. Different chip vendors use different amounts of cable equalization. So saying "it works with XXX' means very little.

When you have a dropout press the OK button. Does the info screen show during the black time? If not the cable from the Radiance Pro to the projector needs to be changed. Bluejeans makes good HDMI cables, but you might need an active cable instead. We strongly recommend active cables for the output of the Pro for lengths over about 10 feet. We have found that the Monoprice version of Redmere works well. A Monoprice 25 foot Cabernet Redmere cable would run about $30 if you want to test with a cable we have found works well. 

Passive HDMI cable can work to about 4 meters at up to 18 GHz depending on the cable vendor, if the input design on the device being driven is well designed. I tested the 4 meter Tributaries 18 GHz rated passive at 18 GHz into the Pro 18 GHz input card and it worked well. However, the biggest issue with long passive cables is not always the cable and can rather be the input design of the receiving device and how well it deals with fast input edges. Transmission line discontinuities in the input design can cause a fast edge to have larger reflections that interfere with the signal integrity.

We recommend a minimum length of 6 feet for passive cables due to HDMI equalization causing the signal to be too hot with under 6 foot cables. Maybe your 5 foot cables are good enough and maybe not. Sometimes going to 3 meters verses 2 meters can, due to the additional signal attenuation, actually help.

It would be best to give us a call to discuss your issues at 503-574-2211 Option 2.


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> Your about 1 second drop out sounds exactly like something an HDMI cable issue could cause. That is unless you are sending the Pro a signal above its rated 9 GHz (which the Samsung UHD player would for HDR source). I will assume this is happening with non-HDR source, since it is not going to work with the Samsung outputting 4k24 HDR at 4:4:4 10-bit until you get a 18 GHz input card for the Pro (or they add the missing 4:2:2 12-bit output format).
> 
> *Saying a cable works with different equipment is apples and oranges. The Pro output edge rates seem to be faster than other devices and so need better cables. Different chip vendors use different amounts of cable equalization. So saying "it works with XXX' means very little.*
> 
> When you have a dropout press the OK button. Does the info screen show during the black time? If not the cable from the Radiance Pro to the projector needs to be changed. Bluejeans makes good HDMI cables, but you might need an active cable instead. We strongly recommend active cables for the output of the Pro for lengths over about 10 feet. We have found that the Monoprice version of Redmere works well. A Monoprice 25 foot Cabernet Redmere cable would run about $30 if you want to test with a cable we have found works well.
> 
> Passive HDMI cable can work to about 4 meters at up to 18 GHz depending on the cable vendor, if the input design on the device being driven is well designed. I tested the 4 meter Tributaries 18 GHz rated passive at 18 GHz into the Pro 18 GHz input card and it worked well. However, the biggest issue with long passive cables is not always the cable and can rather be the input design of the receiving device and how well it deals with fast input edges. Transmission line discontinuities in the input design can cause a fast edge to have larger reflections that interfere with the signal integrity.
> 
> We recommend a minimum length of 6 feet for passive cables due to HDMI equalization causing the signal to be too hot with under 6 foot cables. Maybe your 5 foot cables are good enough and maybe not. Sometimes going to 3 meters verses 2 meters can, due to the additional signal attenuation, actually help.
> 
> It would be best to give us a call to discuss your issues at 503-574-2211 Option 2.


The player that was in use when I spoke of dropouts was the Phillips BDP7501 - not the Samsung. My cables can successfully pass 18 Gbps signals from the Phillips and Samsung players if the Pro isn't in the path, so the 9 Gbps (2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit) signals they sent to & from the Pro should have worked unless the Pro has unusually strict cable requirements. (If 18 Gbps "_Premium Certified_" cables aren't good enough for the Pro, do we need a new certification?)

I just ordered a couple 8' BJ Series-FE cables to replace the 5' ones, so those will be available for testing in a few days. I also have a Cabernet that I can try. I swapped that out for troubleshooting back when the JVC pj's were having problems with the Samsung player's menu. JVC eventually fixed their EDID problem with a FW update. I can put the Cabernet back to see if that helps. It might be a couple days before I get to that however.

If the Cabernet or longer BJ cables resolve the issue, I'll report that here. If not, I'll contact Lumagen Support.

Thank you.


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Of course HDCP 2.2 has nothing to do with resolution and is not technically required, that's not what I was talking about.
> 
> Adding the HDCP 2.2 protection does, however, add *some* bandwidth load which can make the difference between the content fitting in the 9Gb/s or 18Gb/s maximum bandwidth or not.
> 
> The last example I gave was the impossibility to fit 4K 4:4:4 10bit at 60p in the maximum HDMI 2.0 bandwidth of 18gb/s (which is a serious oversight from whoever presided in the definition of the new standard as it means protected UHD Bluray content at 60p needs to be downconverted in some way) while the same content unprotected or converted to HDCP 1.4 might fit the same pipe.
> 
> In these borderline situations, a small bandwidth increase can become significant, that's the only point I was trying to make, as a way to explain why possibly the content mentioned in the case you were discussing could fit the 9gb/s bandwidth when in theory it shouldn't (provided the reason isn't because Samsun downscaled chroma to 8bit as I also suggested).


Sorry to contradict you, but the HDCP encryption only changes the bits and does not require additional bits in the video stream. The only addition is passing the keys, which is done through the non-video HDMI control signals. HDCP 2.2 encrypt/decrypt does require more resources in the transmit and receiver chips themselves, but this does not affect the bit rate.

Note that all consumer source is encoded as 4:2:0 for good reason. The human visual system is much less sensitive to Chroma resolution. One Phd color scientist I spoke to said human vision is about 1/9 as sensitive to Chroma as luminance. So for video material using 1/4 resolution Chroma allows the best image quality for a given bit rate (verses 4:4:4). For consumer video sources there is no reason for 4:4:4, and even 4:2:2 is more than needed. Encoding video at 4:2:0 to gain image bit depth is a very good trade-off and there is no real loss due to the 18 GHz limit requiring 4:2:2 to get above 8-bit for 4k60 since this is already higher Chroma resolution than the source material.

For 4k24 movie content, using 4:2:2 is a very reasonable choice since it provides 12-bits for the 10-bit content at 9 GHz. The same holds true for 4k60 content since 18 GHz support 4k60, 12-bit 4:2:2. So a small bandwidth increase is not needed.


----------



## jrp

Gordon Fraser said:


> Genlock is in the current firmware. Lumagen have altered their methodology for genlock in current iteration and are considering further options...genlock is a work in progress rather than a finished feature at this time i believe.


The current Genlock matches the video input clock by slightly changing the divider ratios in the Genlock PLL that itself uses a different clock. This very small change seems to cause some TV/projectors to have issues due to the slight change in clock frequency needed from time to time to maintain lock-step between the input and output. The advantage of this method is that switching time with Genlock on does not increase.

We are now considering adding back the original Genlock method of using the input video clock to drive the PLL directly as an option. This has the advantage that the divider ratios do not need to change in the Genlock PLL, and means that TV/projectors do not need to deal with the small video clock frequency step. However, it has the disadvantage of increasing switching times.

For TVs/Projectors that deal with the small clock changes needed using the current Genlock, it will remain the optimal choice. For those TVs/Projectors that do not tolerate the small clock changes, the additional method should provide a stable Genlock at the the cost of longer switching times.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> Sorry to contradict you, but the HDCP encryption only changes the bits and does not require additional bits in the video stream. The only addition is passing the keys, which is done through the non-video HDMI control signals. HDCP 2.2 encrypt/decrypt does require more resources in the transmit and receiver chips themselves, but this does not affect the bit rate.
> 
> Note that all consumer source is encoded as 4:2:0 for good reason. The human visual system is much less sensitive to Chroma resolution. One Phd color scientist I spoke to said human vision is about 1/9 as sensitive to Chroma as luminance. So for video material using 1/4 resolution Chroma allows the best image quality for a given bit rate (verses 4:4:4). For consumer video sources there is no reason for 4:4:4, and even 4:2:2 is more than needed. Encoding video at 4:2:0 to gain image bit depth is a very good trade-off and there is no real loss due to the 18 GHz limit requiring 4:2:2 to get above 8-bit for 4k60 since this is already higher Chroma resolution than the source material.
> 
> For 4k24 movie content, using 4:2:2 is a very reasonable choice since it provides 12-bits for the 10-bit content at 9 GHz. The same holds true for 4k60 content since 18 GHz support 4k60, 12-bit 4:2:2. So a small bandwidth increase is not needed.


I have no idea why you are listing all this generic info, as I never made any statement suggesting that additional bits would be added to the video stream itself (I mentioned bandwidth, not bitrate), or that 4:2:0 in the content wasn't a good compromise especially when the storage space is limited, which is the case with current 50Gb or 66Gb UHD Bluray discs. Getting 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 from the source is fine, especially when a Radiance can do the chroma upscaling (which has to be done at some point for processing), as the quality it provides is excellent. 

However, sending 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 from the Radiance means that the display will do the final chroma upscaling to 4:4:4 internally. With some displays, it's fine, with others, I'd rather have the Radiance (or the source if there is no Radiance in the chain) to do the upscaling. The chroma upscaling of the Panasonic UB900 (or of an HTPC with MadVR) is excellent and having the source sending 4:4:4 in such cases can be justified IMHO, especially if there is no Radiance (yet!) in the chain.

Anyway, I'll leave the thread for now as it looks like you're reading my posts in a negative light, which is certainly not my intention. As a former Radiance user I love the Radiance line and even more the first class customer service Lumagen provides. I've been considering purchasing a Radiance Pro for a while and have been discussing this with Gordon a few times. I'm only waiting for it to provide the features I want/need (which includes 18gb/s in/out as far as I'm concerned) at a price I can justify


----------



## jrp

Manni01:

No worries. I am not taking your post negatively. I am just pointing out the math.

Changes to bandwidth means bitrate changes. They are pretty synonymous in the digital domain and I don't see how it can be construed another way. So I took you comment to mean you thought the HDCP increased the bit rate from HDCP 1.X to HDCP 2.2. 

As far as input to the Pro is concerned, we would always want the source sending the video at the source's native format, and so 4:2:0, 10-bit for consumer UHD, as you commented. Unfortunately 4:2:0 is not a defined format for HDMI at 24 Hertz. So we will likely have to use 4:2:2 for 4k24 sources.

As to your wanting the Pro to covert to 4:4:4, I can see your point. Fortunately the scaling of Chroma is less critical than the scaling of luminance. So sending 4:2:2 for 4k60 at 18 GHz is in my opinion a reasonable choice. For 24p source content once we have the upcoming 18 GHz output card you will be able to output 4:4:4 10-bit a 4k24.

We should be in production for the 18 GHz input at the end of August. The 18 GHz output is a few months out. I understand you are price sensitive. However, I can say we do not have any plans for a Radiance Pro at a price less than the current Radiance Pro 4240 due to our cost of manufacturing coupled with the niche nature of our market (meaning limited volume). I never say never though. So there is some chance we would eventually find a way to reduce the price point, but this would be a long time out.


----------



## Manni01

Thanks Jim. Re bandwidth vs bitrate, I'm afraid you're the one who suggested that the encryption overhead would not increase the bitrate of the video stream itself, which I never suggested, so I thought you were making this distinction. In my head though, bitrate is video/audio stream specific, linked to resolution and compression while bandwidth is more generic and includes everything that goes through the pipe, such as handshaking, encryption, etc, not only the video/audio stream itself, but you're right, maybe that's just me.

In any case, I think we have both clarified what we meant


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> The current Genlock matches the video input clock by slightly changing the divider ratios in the Genlock PLL that itself uses a different clock. This very small change seems to cause some TV/projectors to have issues due to the slight change in clock frequency needed from time to time to maintain lock-step between the input and output. The advantage of this method is that switching time with Genlock on does not increase.
> 
> We are now considering adding back the original Genlock method of using the input video clock to drive the PLL directly as an option. This has the advantage that the divider ratios do not need to change in the Genlock PLL, and means that TV/projectors do not need to deal with the small video clock frequency step. However, it has the disadvantage of increasing switching times.
> 
> For TVs/Projectors that deal with the small clock changes needed using the current Genlock, it will remain the optimal choice. For those TVs/Projectors that do not tolerate the small clock changes, the additional method should provide a stable Genlock at the the cost of longer switching times.


Any idea when you might be adding back the original Genlock method Jim? When it did work on the Pro a few firmwares back it worked well and appeared to give a slight improvement to image quality (slight increase in image solidarity/clarity - though that could have just been palcebo) whilst also eliminating the occasional dropped frames/stutter. The current method doesn't work for the current range of JVC projectors, so we are currently stuck with a dropped frame every so often.


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Any idea when you might be adding back the original Genlock method Jim? When it did work on the Pro a few firmwares back it worked well and appeared to give a slight improvement to image quality (slight increase in image solidarity/clarity - though that could have just been palcebo) whilst also eliminating the occasional dropped frames/stutter. The current method doesn't work for the current range of JVC projectors, so we are currently stuck with a dropped frame every so often.


I get dropped frames with my Dune through the pro playing 23.976 content as well...annoying. When I bypass the Pro, no issues.


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> I get dropped frames with my Dune through the pro playing 23.976 content as well...annoying. When I bypass the Pro, no issues.


Yes, happens for me on all sources at 23.976. What projector do you have? If its not a JVC, then Genlock may work, but on the JVC's you get a full frame pink flash on screen instead of the dropped frame.


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Yes, happens for me on all sources at 23.976. What projector do you have? If its not a JVC, then Genlock may work, but on the JVC's you get a full frame pink flash on screen instead of the dropped frame.


Sony 1100


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## Wookii

thrang said:


> Sony 1100


Try turning the Genlock on and see if it works?


----------



## SJHT

Yeah, I have a JVC RS600 and had to turn it off. SJ


----------



## jamesmil

Assuming CalMan is updated to support the new Radiance Pro HDR 3DLUT calibrations (including tone mapping down to SDR), would this sensor bundle be a good solution for someone looking to learn the art of calibration with a PJ + Radiance Pro:

http://calman.spectracal.com/store/...CalMAN_Enthusiast_with_i1_Meter_(X-Rite).html

Seems like a pretty good deal...


----------



## henrich3

Re: Video dropouts

I did a little more testing with the following config:
_Phillips BDP7501 -> Radiance Pro -> RS600_

- Swapped in an 8' Blue Jeans Series-FE cable for the 5' one between the player & Pro. Dropouts observed while viewing 2160p24 4:2:2 10-bit content.
- Swapped in a MonoPrice Ultra Slim 18Gbps Active cable (6') between the player & Pro. Dropouts observed while viewing 2160p24 4:2:2 10-bit content.
- Swapped in a MonoPrice Cabernet (25') between the Pro & pj. No image. Reseated cables, but still no image. (Cable failure.)
- Swapped in a MonoPrice Select Active Series cable with RedMere (10') between the Pro & pj. Dropouts observed while viewing 2160p24 4:2:2 10-bit content.

After doing more viewing, I need to change my description of the "dropouts". They're better described as flashes of video noise. The flashes also obscured the Pro's menu if that was being displayed.

I never saw any problems when the Phillips player menu (2160p60 4:2:0 8-bit) was being displayed.
- - - -
Success! It just dawned on me to try turning Genlock off (from Auto). That did the trick. I now have a stable 2160p24 4:2:2 10-bit image out of the Pro. Now I just need to get the thing calibrated. Still hoping for a tone mapped HDR to SDR solution, whether that's done in the Pro FW or calibration software. Wake me up when it's ready...


----------



## SJHT

Yeah, I also have a RS600 and Genlock on was an issue just as you describe. As mentioned, it is an issue with JVC projectors. SJ


----------



## Dartel

*Where are the changes made?*

Sorry for the newbie questions I am bound to ask BUT I am new LOL also any incorrect assumptions or postings PLEASE correct me so I can learn. I was wondering if using the Lumagen Radiance Pro to auto calibrate my TV does it read the TV settings and make the offset adjustments in the radiance? OR does it change the actual TV settings? Reason I ask is I was wondering if the radiance had to to stay on the TV or could I move it to another TV to auto calibrate that one and have the first TV still calibrated.

I just bought a new LG OLED55E6P 55" and own a TC-P58VT25 1080p Plasma will a 4k Radiance work with both the 4K and 1080p TV?

I will hook a DirecTV, AppleTV, Xbox, and PC to the OLED and want to use the Radiance and Chromapure to auto calibrate the TV's so I think I will be fine with a 4 input with 2 output version but am not sure if I need the 
Radiance Pro 4242: 4 inputs, 2 processed outputs, 1U case OR Radiance 2143

Also I see the Radiance line are 1.4 HDMI I was under the impression that the HDR TV's needed HDMI 2.0 will I need something different for this?


----------



## p5browne

Dartel said:


> Sorry for the newbie questions I am bound to ask BUT I am new LOL also any incorrect assumptions or postings PLEASE correct me so I can learn. I was wondering if using the Lumagen Radiance Pro to auto calibrate my TV does it read the TV settings and make the offset adjustments in the radiance? OR does it change the actual TV settings? Reason I ask is I was wondering if the radiance had to to stay on the TV or could I move it to another TV to auto calibrate that one and have the first TV still calibrated.
> 
> I just bought a new LG OLED55E6P 55" and own a TC-P58VT25 1080p Plasma will a 4k Radiance work with both the 4K and 1080p TV?
> 
> I will hook a DirecTV, AppleTV, Xbox, and PC to the OLED and want to use the Radiance and Chromapure to auto calibrate the TV's so I think I will be fine with a 4 input with 2 output version but am not sure if I need the
> Radiance Pro 4242: 4 inputs, 2 processed outputs, 1U case OR Radiance 2143
> 
> Also I see the Radiance line are 1.4 HDMI I was under the impression that the HDR TV's needed HDMI 2.0 will I need something different for this?


2 major questions:

# 1 - How much, App viewing related on the TV do you do? Are 4K auxiliary add ons going to be directly connected to the set? 
In this case, getting the TV itself properly calibrated is very important if this is to be your main center. (This includes USB Flashsticks with video materials.)

# 2 - If most of your viewing materials will be input into the Radiance, how much are you going to rely on the TV being calibrated, versus auto calibrating with the Radiance, wherein the settings will be contained within the Lumagen?

# 3 - Switching the Radiance between TV sets will be a pain in the butt! Also your chances of breaking something will go up when doing so.
I believe you may be able to use the different Memories for each set. But with just the hassle of installing the Lumagen on one set is more than enough, without complicating trying to switch between sets.

# 4 - Maybe your idea is to use the Radiance as the Pattern Generator to calibrate the first set, internal to the set. Then move it to it's permanent residence on the second set where now both TV and Radiance will be used in the calibrating.


----------



## jrp

Dartel said:


> Sorry for the newbie questions I am bound to ask BUT I am new LOL also any incorrect assumptions or postings PLEASE correct me so I can learn. I was wondering if using the Lumagen Radiance Pro to auto calibrate my TV does it read the TV settings and make the offset adjustments in the radiance? OR does it change the actual TV settings? Reason I ask is I was wondering if the radiance had to to stay on the TV or could I move it to another TV to auto calibrate that one and have the first TV still calibrated.
> 
> I just bought a new LG OLED55E6P 55" and own a TC-P58VT25 1080p Plasma will a 4k Radiance work with both the 4K and 1080p TV?
> 
> I will hook a DirecTV, AppleTV, Xbox, and PC to the OLED and want to use the Radiance and Chromapure to auto calibrate the TV's so I think I will be fine with a 4 input with 2 output version but am not sure if I need the
> Radiance Pro 4242: 4 inputs, 2 processed outputs, 1U case OR Radiance 2143
> 
> Also I see the Radiance line are 1.4 HDMI I was under the impression that the HDR TV's needed HDMI 2.0 will I need something different for this?


Allow me to disagree with p5brown on using the Radiance Pro for two different TVs. We have many people using a Radiance for two systems (one at a time). It is not that hard, and we are available to help with setup if you email us at [email protected] or call us at 503-574-2211.

Note that the Radiance Pro is HDCP 2.2, and the non-Pro models are HDCP 1.X. You need the Radiance Pro for HDR and/or Rec 2020. Once the software from the calibration vendors is updated for these modes on the Radiance Pro, you should be able to calibrate for HDR and Rec 2020 on an HDR TV but also a non-HDR TV to the best ability of that TV.

Setting up for the first TV is straight forward since the Radiance Pro will automatically detect the rates/resolutions supported if it is placed on the the highest number output. Since it is a 16:9 TV the default aspect ratio is already correct. You do need to do a calibration, but with auto calibration it is straight forward (HDR calibration is a still under development). The key to success is to have the very best HDMI cables. We strongly recommend an active HDMI cable on all Radiance and Radiance Pro outputs.

Setting up for the second TV involves using the Output Setup menu to program a separate configuration memory (say MEMB) to point to a different calibration memory, and if the capabilities are different than the first TV a separate output Mode and a separate output Style. This is also straight forward but for a first timer I suggest you contact us to help you to help understand the menus.

Then you would select MEMA for the first TV and MEMB for the second TV.

Feel free to email us at [email protected] if you have more questions, or if you get a Radiance Pro for help in the setup.


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> Any idea when you might be adding back the original Genlock method Jim? When it did work on the Pro a few firmwares back it worked well and appeared to give a slight improvement to image quality (slight increase in image solidarity/clarity - though that could have just been palcebo) whilst also eliminating the occasional dropped frames/stutter. The current method doesn't work for the current range of JVC projectors, so we are currently stuck with a dropped frame every so often.


We are increasing the priority for the addition of an option for the older Genlock method since it seems more projectors have issues with it than we thought with the current method.

So I hope we have it in a release in the next month or so.


----------



## p5browne

jrp said:


> Allow me to disagree with p5brown on using the Radiance Pro for two different TVs. We have many people using a Radiance for two systems (one at a time). It is not that hard, and we are available to help with setup if you email us at [email protected] or call us at 503-574-2211.
> 
> Note that the Radiance Pro is HDCP 2.2, and the non-Pro models are HDCP 1.X. You need the Radiance Pro for HDR and/or Rec 2020. Once the software from the calibration vendors is updated for these modes on the Radiance Pro, you should be able to calibrate for HDR and Rec 2020 on an HDR TV but also a non-HDR TV to the best ability of that TV.
> 
> Setting up for the first TV is straight forward since the Radiance Pro will automatically detect the rates/resolutions supported if it is placed on the the highest number output. Since it is a 16:9 TV the default aspect ratio is already correct. You do need to do a calibration, but with auto calibration it is straight forward (HDR calibration is a still under development). The key to success is to have the very best HDMI cables. We strongly recommend an active HDMI cable on all Radiance and Radiance Pro outputs.
> 
> Setting up for the second TV involves using the Output Setup menu to program a separate configuration memory (say MEMB) to point to a different calibration memory, and if the capabilities are different than the first TV a separate output Mode and a separate output Style. This is also straight forward but for a first timer I suggest you contact us to help you to help understand the menus.
> 
> Then you would select MEMA for the first TV and MEMB for the second TV.
> 
> Feel free to email us at [email protected] if you have more questions, or if you get a Radiance Pro for help in the setup.


I assume this is if both sets are in the same room, or fairly close to each other. 
I thought the Member mentioned his sets were in different parts of his house?


----------



## OMARDRIS

*The next attack in the Battle of HDR and BT2020 with the Samsung K8500*

Hi,

here are some pictures from the exchange of 9GHz input board with the 18GHz Alpha Board.
In a Radiance Pro 424x the exchange is really very simple:


The patient before surgery (right can be seen the 9GHz Input Board):












The two rivals:












The 18GHz Alpha Board in place:












The patient survived the operation. The Samsung sends in 4k HDR / BT2020 with 4.4.4 














And now I'm waiting for the adjustments of Calman 5 and Light Space. I am very curious if it is possible the Radiance Pro to make a VW1100ES HDR/BT2020 capable.

Peter


PS: I thank Gordon Fraser for the good service to organize one of Alpha Cards.


----------



## henrich3

Are the current 18 Gbps input boards single port at that rate? If so, when are the dual 18 Gbps input boards expected? How about the 18 Gbps output boards?


----------



## Dartel

p5browne said:


> 2 major questions:
> 
> # 1 - How much, App viewing related on the TV do you do? Are 4K auxiliary add ons going to be directly connected to the set?
> In this case, getting the TV itself properly calibrated is very important if this is to be your main center. (This includes USB Flashsticks with video materials.)
> 
> # 2 - If most of your viewing materials will be input into the Radiance, how much are you going to rely on the TV being calibrated, versus auto calibrating with the Radiance, wherein the settings will be contained within the Lumagen?
> 
> # 3 - Switching the Radiance between TV sets will be a pain in the butt! Also your chances of breaking something will go up when doing so.
> I believe you may be able to use the different Memories for each set. But with just the hassle of installing the Lumagen on one set is more than enough, without complicating trying to switch between sets.
> 
> # 4 - Maybe your idea is to use the Radiance as the Pattern Generator to calibrate the first set, internal to the set. Then move it to it's permanent residence on the second set where now both TV and Radiance will be used in the calibrating.


I plan to hook Lumagen directly to the 4K tv, understanding the hassles I will not worry about the 1080p TV. And I guess I will have to rely on digital audio connections for the audio so as not to have the receiver in the video path.

80% of my TV and Movie viewing is Netflix, I am actually trying to convince myself to cancel my DirectTV account once the 2 year obligation ends next month.

TV usage is mostly from appleTV air playing iPad, Xbox just bought the Xbox one S for the 4K blu-Ray drive, and my PC.


----------



## Dartel

jrp said:


> Allow me to disagree with p5brown on using the Radiance Pro for two different TVs. We have many people using a Radiance for two systems (one at a time). It is not that hard, and we are available to help with setup if you email us at [email protected] or call us at 503-574-2211.
> 
> Note that the Radiance Pro is HDCP 2.2, and the non-Pro models are HDCP 1.X. You need the Radiance Pro for HDR and/or Rec 2020. Once the software from the calibration vendors is updated for these modes on the Radiance Pro, you should be able to calibrate for HDR and Rec 2020 on an HDR TV but also a non-HDR TV to the best ability of that TV.
> 
> Setting up for the first TV is straight forward since the Radiance Pro will automatically detect the rates/resolutions supported if it is placed on the the highest number output. Since it is a 16:9 TV the default aspect ratio is already correct. You do need to do a calibration, but with auto calibration it is straight forward (HDR calibration is a still under development). The key to success is to have the very best HDMI cables. We strongly recommend an active HDMI cable on all Radiance and Radiance Pro outputs.
> 
> Setting up for the second TV involves using the Output Setup menu to program a separate configuration memory (say MEMB) to point to a different calibration memory, and if the capabilities are different than the first TV a separate output Mode and a separate output Style. This is also straight forward but for a first timer I suggest you contact us to help you to help understand the menus.
> 
> Then you would select MEMA for the first TV and MEMB for the second TV.
> 
> Feel free to email us at [email protected] if you have more questions, or if you get a Radiance Pro for help in the setup.


Currently the new 4K tv is in bedroom as I am about to have a hip replacement and being able to watch tv while bedridden will help a lot.

Once I am all healed I might swap the 2 tv's I rarely have company so am not concerned about entertaining.

I have all Bestbuy cables their cinnamon and forest lines these are not good enough?


----------



## Nudgiator

henrich3 said:


> Are the current 18 Gbps input boards single port at that rate?


As far as I remember: one port is 18 GHz, the second is 9 GHz. That's for the alpha boards.



> If so, when are the dual 18 Gbps input boards expected?


Look what Jim wrote there:



> For the Alpha level card, only the odd port is 18 GHz due to a CAD tool giving me bad information on the trace/space of the input wires. Our goal is that the production cards (due end of August if all goes well) have both ports working at 18 GHz, but until we have them back and test them we will not know for sure if we have met this goal.





> How about the 18 Gbps output boards?


Jim said a few days ago that it will take a few months. There is not really a hurry with that, because movies do not really need 18 GHz.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 080516- Several bugfixes for new 18 Ghz input cards. Added virtual inputs which allow assigning unused input memories to other physical inputs which is useful if you have need for more than the 4 normally (memory A-D) available for each physical input. Virtual input function is accessed in the menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Physical In . Bugfix for HDR not always being set (or unset) correctly on video output. Added over temperature warnings in case of fan failure. Fixup for genlock not working correctly in some situations. Another fix for output triggers. Several more small bugfixes and improvements. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## henrich3

I tried Beta 080516 and enabled Genlock. I still saw momentary flashes of video noise about every 30 seconds - 1 minute in Genlock Auto mode. I tried Auto24 and saw flashes of noise every 3 - 5 minutes. I turned Genlock off & watched an entire UHD movie with no dropouts or flashes.


----------



## LJG

Thank you to Jim P for resolving the trigger issue in latest software upgrade.

I am just wondering about HDR and Front Projector setup with Lumagen. My source is Panasonic UHD through the Radiance Pro into Sony 5000ES. I have the Sony @ 100 percent Contrast, and would like to clip Nits at between 900-1000, is raising the White output(contrast) of the Radiance an acceptable adjustment to clip the Nits? Is there a better method?

I have adjusted the white level of the Radiance to plus 8 with very good results. But just double checking this method....

Thanks


----------



## henrich3

^
Panasonic's _Dynamic Range Conversion Adjustment_ should provide a better result than just using the Contrast control to adjust the clipping point.


----------



## LJG

I prefer the adjusted HDR image to the SDR conversion. I was just looking for feedback on best way to clip Nits with Radiance in HDR


----------



## Manni01

henrich3 said:


> ^
> Panasonic's _Dynamic Range Conversion Adjustment_ should provide a better result than just using the Contrast control to adjust the clipping point.


AFAIK the dynamic range conversion adjustment in the UB900 only works for an HDR to SDR conversion. It won't help you to clip content at the right point according to the capability of your display in HDR.
For example, I set my JVC RS500 to high lamp and iris -7 in HDR to get around 150nits peak brightness yet still decent black levels and contrast. So I set the display to clip content at 1500nits (the so-called 10X rule). To do this, the dynamic range conversion adjustment, which only works when the player converts to SDR, doesn't help. I need to use the contrast setting.


----------



## LJG

Manni01 said:


> AFAIK the dynamic range conversion adjustment in the UB900 only works for an HDR to SDR conversion. It won't help you to clip content at the right point according to the capability of your display in HDR.
> For example, I set my JVC RS500 to high lamp and iris -7 in HDR to get around 150nits peak brightness yet still decent black levels and contrast. So I set the display to clip content at 1500nits (the so-called 10X rule). To do this, the dynamic range conversion adjustment, which only works when the player converts to SDR, doesn't help. I need to use the contrast setting.


Exactly!!!! So what is the best method to clip Nits? Is contrast setting the best way?


----------



## henrich3

Manni01 said:


> AFAIK the dynamic range conversion adjustment in the UB900 only works for an HDR to SDR conversion. It won't help you to clip content at the right point according to the capability of your display in HDR.
> For example, I set my JVC RS500 to high lamp and iris -7 in HDR to get around 150nits peak brightness yet still decent black levels and contrast. So I set the display to clip content at 1500nits (the so-called 10X rule). To do this, the dynamic range conversion adjustment, which only works when the player converts to SDR, doesn't help. I need to use the contrast setting.


I assumed from an earlier post of yours that the feature wouldn't actually remove the HDR flag if a display supported HDR:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2279898-panasonic-dmp-ub900-thread-8.html#post43761594

If the feature doesn't remove the HDR flag, then it's just tone mapping which should be superior to clipping, right? 

Apologies for going OT...


----------



## Manni01

henrich3 said:


> I assumed from an earlier post of yours that the feature wouldn't actually remove the HDR flag if a display supported HDR:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...anasonic-dmp-ub900-thread-8.html#post43761594
> 
> If the feature doesn't remove the HDR flag, then it's just tone mapping which should be superior to clipping, right?



Yes the UB900 requires an Integral (or a Radiance Pro) to keep UHD BT2020, as if you ask the Pana UB900 to convert to SDR in down converts to Rec-709.

But that's not what we are discussing here. We're not talking about SDR conversion, we're talking about clipping the content according to the capability of the display to maximise brightness in HDR. For this, the setting in the UB900 is of no help because it only works when the player converts HDR to SDR. That's not what the OP was talking about.


----------



## Manni01

LJG said:


> Exactly!!!! So what is the best method to clip Nits? Is contrast setting the best way?


I will let Jim or Gordon answer this for your display and the Radiance, but for sure the dynamic range adjustment in the UB900 won't help when you want to clip content according to your display capability when you display HDR.

Heinrich feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss the UB900 or post in the Panasonic thread, no problem.


----------



## Nudgiator

LJG said:


> Exactly!!!! So what is the best method to clip Nits? Is contrast setting the best way?


Like Manni I would use the aperture of the projector at first to reduce the luminance. Then the contrast controller of the projector for the fine tuning. You can also use the RGB controllers but IMHO that's not necessary for the clipping.

I would ONLY use the contrast controller inside of the PRO when there is no other chance inside of the projector to reduce the luminance.


----------



## Wookii

henrich3 said:


> I tried Beta 080516 and enabled Genlock. I still saw momentary flashes of video noise about every 30 seconds - 1 minute in Genlock Auto mode. I tried Auto24 and saw flashes of noise every 3 - 5 minutes. I turned Genlock off & watched an entire UHD movie with no dropouts or flashes.


I second this, the new implementation of Genlock does not work as intend on this release. I still get frame drops and the occasional pink frame with both Genlock Auto and Genlock24.

I also still get frame drops with Genlock off, but they are less frequent than previous FW releases.


----------



## Nudgiator

Just for your information: usually it's much faster when you ALSO send bugs directly to the "special" email address (look at the website of Lumagen for it) of Lumagen. Then Patrick will care about it


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Support*



Nudgiator said:


> Just for your information: usually it's much faster when you ALSO send bugs directly to the "special" email address (look at the website of Lumagen for it) of Lumagen. Then Patrick will care about it



*Lumagen Support*

For questions or technical support please contact us 
Email: *[email protected] *
Phone: 503-574-2211 
Fax: 503-296-2384 
Address: 7810 SW MIller Hill Rd 
Beaverton,OR 97007 
USA


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mike_WI said:


> *Lumagen Support*
> 
> For questions or technical support please contact us
> Email: *[email protected] *
> Phone: 503-574-2211
> Fax: 503-296-2384
> Address: 7810 SW MIller Hill Rd
> Beaverton,OR 97007
> USA


There is a dedicated Pro beta support mail address

*Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at    [email protected] .*


----------



## OMARDRIS

jrp said:


> 1) Rec 2020 output without HDR (even if the input is HDR) is a valid selection.



Hi Jim,
How should we configure the Radiance Pro to output REC2020 without HDR?
In Global menu I see the possibility to manipulate the EDID for the source. (HDR/REC2020 = "Yes", "No", "Auto")
In CMS menu (Colorspace) I can only choose between "Auto", "REC2020" and "REC709".
But at what point do I manipulate the Metadata for the Display to suppress the HDR flag?
Or perhaps not yet implemented this Option. Beta Testers are always very impatient. 

Peter


----------



## BakeApples

OMARDRIS said:


> I am very curious if it is possible the Radiance Pro to make a VW1100ES HDR/BT2020 capable.
> 
> Peter


I am also very interested to know this so please report back if you manage to make it work.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 081416- Several fixes for problems that could give weird colors for new 18ghz input cards. Couple fixes for even number input with 9777 card. EDID fix for rec2020. Couple small menu display issues fixed. Fix for problems with HDR video output. Several fixes to rs232 commands for use with rec2020, HDR and automated test pattern control. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi,
there is a new firmware version 1007 for the Samsung K8500. I'm not sure if it is because of this new firmware that I can play no UHD Blu-ray more on the *second input* (9GHz) of 18GHz Alpha-Board of Radiance Pro. I'm not 100% sure if I tested it before. I think so.

Maybe someone here has a K8500 with the old firmware 1006.3 and a 18GHz-Alpha Board in Radiance Pro and could test whether on *Input 2* (9 GHz) is a picture of a UHD_Blu-ray. The Samsung will send 3840X2160p24 SDR/709 (8 bit).

I know that the Samsung better adjoins Input 1, but also test is, check the exceptions.

At the moment I do not recommend that you install the version of 1007 on the Samsung. I think because there is no way back.

Peter


PS: Patrick is informed


PPS: There is a problem with input 2 of the Alpha Board and 4k signals. It's just only an Alpha Board and not yet ready for production.
I just installed for testing the "old" 9GHz Input Board again. And so the Samsung has no problems. He sends 3840X216024p SDR/709 (8 bits) and everything is ok.
Then it was probably a coincidence that I once had a 4k image on input 2 of Alpha Board.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 082016*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates




> *Beta 082016*
> - Bugfix for 18 Ghz input cards--was not powering down correctly when going to standby.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Bill DePalma

Quick question
I will soon be getting the Panasonic UHD player and hope to pass the BT2020 profile minus HDR.
Am I correct in assuming the Lumagen Pro is capable of passing BT2020 with SDR and not HDR? Or, would I need an Integral to accomplish this?
Playing with settings on my Lumagen Pro being fed by a Samsung UHD player, I don't see a setting for passing BT 2020 with SDR?
Thanks


----------



## Wookii

Bill DePalma said:


> Quick question
> I will soon be getting the Panasonic UHD player and hope to pass the BT2020 profile minus HDR.
> Am I correct in assuming the Lumagen Pro is capable of passing BT2020 with SDR and not HDR? Or, would I need an Integral to accomplish this?
> Playing with settings on my Lumagen Pro being fed by a Samsung UHD player, I don't see a setting for passing BT 2020 with SDR?
> Thanks


If you go in to Global Settings - Video there are options to selectively a turn on/off both BT2020 and HDR.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Thanks so much!!
Also, am I able to assign a memory to this so that I could have both an HDR/2020 profile as well as a SDR/2020 profile that could be switched via a memory shortcut? Given that it is a global action would this be possible?


----------



## Wookii

Bill DePalma said:


> Thanks so much!!
> Also, am I able to assign a memory to this so that I could have both an HDR/2020 profile as well as a SDR/2020 profile that could be switched via a memory shortcut? Given that it is a global action would this be possible?


I would say not currently, the global options, by their nature, affect all inputs and memory presets.

I agree though, the ability to set these differently for different memory presents would be useful.


----------



## SJHT

I have a 16:9 screen. When watching 2.4 content with black bars on the top or bottom, is there a way to move the picture down to the bottom of my 16:9 screen? I sometimes zoom a little to make the picture a little bigger, but still would love to move the entire picture down towards the bottom of my 16:9 screen. I.e. More black bar on the top and none on the bottom but the black edge of the screen. Thanks. SJ


----------



## roxiedog13

*Problems setting up 4440*

Hooked up per the owners manual HDMI 1 out to AVR and output 2 HDMI to JVC600 . I don't get any picture through from the Panny UB900. Per page 7, # 6 I tried to selecting input button, then button #1 , the screen remains green. Yes, a green blank screen. Manual says I should be able to select the input and as long as the source device is active I should see the video. No Video , just green blank screen .I can select the Menu, cannot seem to get through that quagmire yet, certainly not intuitive, to me anyway, I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point. For the price I'm not overly happy with the menu screen that's for sure.

More worried about the green screen to start out, is that normal? If I remove the Lumagen and plug in the HD Fury I was trying to replace in the first place, all is good.


----------



## MJV29

roxiedog13 said:


> Hooked up per the owners manual HDMI 1 out to AVR and output 2 HDMI to JVC600 . I don't get any picture through from the Panny UB900. Per page 7, # 6 I tried to selecting input button, then button #1 , the screen remains green. Yes, a green blank screen. Manual says I should be able to select the input and as long as the source device is active I should see the video. No Video , just green blank screen .I can select the Menu, cannot seem to get through that quagmire yet, certainly not intuitive, to me anyway, I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point. For the price I'm not overly happy with the menu screen that's for sure.
> 
> More worried about the green screen to start out, is that normal? If I remove the Lumagen and plug in the HD Fury I was trying to replace in the first place, all is good.



Don't give up on the Lumagen! There is so much you can do with it but it takes some time to learn. The processing with the Lumagen is superb as well. I am new to all this just like you and have the Samsung running through the Lumagen Pro. I only get rec .709 but the picture is crazy good. I haven't upgraded to the 18ghz card yet.(That's why) If you are trying to get 4K to run through you will have to set the input and output to auto or rec .2020. I'm no expert and I know there are many people to help you on this site, you can always email or call Lumagen to get answers as well. They have great customer service!


----------



## loggeo

roxiedog13 said:


> Hooked up per the owners manual HDMI 1 out to AVR and output 2 HDMI to JVC600 . I don't get any picture through from the Panny UB900. Per page 7, # 6 I tried to selecting input button, then button #1 , the screen remains green. Yes, a green blank screen. Manual says I should be able to select the input and as long as the source device is active I should see the video. No Video , just green blank screen .I can select the Menu, cannot seem to get through that quagmire yet, certainly not intuitive, to me anyway, I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point. For the price I'm not overly happy with the menu screen that's for sure.
> 
> More worried about the green screen to start out, is that normal? If I remove the Lumagen and plug in the HD Fury I was trying to replace in the first place, all is good.


As long as you have the 9ghz input boards your ub900 must be set to 4:2:2 output otherwise you will not get a picture. Also note in the output bar that there are some options to output video, audio, both or none of the 2 on the 2 hdmi outputs.


----------



## roxiedog13

loggeo said:


> As long as you have the 9ghz input boards your ub900 must be set to 4:2:2 output otherwise you will not get a picture. Also note in the output bar that there are some options to output video, audio, both or none of the 2 on the 2 hdmi outputs.


Had the same issue trying the Samsung , should have tried the Oppo 1080P input 2 or switched to input 1 just to make sure . Will check the UB900 is 4:2:2 . I only intend to run 4K without HDR BT2020 the 9ghz boards should do for now, will upgrade later.

Thanks for the tips.


----------



## loggeo

roxiedog13 said:


> Had the same issue trying the Samsung , should have tried the Oppo 1080P input 2 or switched to input 1 just to make sure . Will check the UB900 is 4:2:2 . I only intend to run 4K without HDR BT2020 the 9ghz boards should do for now, will upgrade later.
> 
> Thanks for the tips.


Playing with Hdr or not will not make a difference in getting a picture as long as you run on 4:2:2. 9 ghz are good enough. You could prepare an output that gives video to projector and audio to avr for all incoming signals and store it to input memory you have your panny hooked up.


----------



## roxiedog13

MJV29 said:


> Don't give up on the Lumagen! There is so much you can do with it but it takes some time to learn. The processing with the Lumagen is superb as well. I am new to all this just like you and have the Samsung running through the Lumagen Pro. I only get rec .709 but the picture is crazy good. I haven't upgraded to the 18ghz card yet.(That's why) If you are trying to get 4K to run through you will have to set the input and output to auto or rec .2020. I'm no expert and I know there are many people to help you on this site, you can always email or call Lumagen to get answers as well. They have great customer service!


Appreciate the encouragement, thanks. I'm going to give the Lumagen an honest effort before I throw in the towel . My original plan changed and I was going to get rid of the Lumagen but as you say it has some excellent processing and I also need it to do a calibrations as I am forced to do due to the absence of a professional I can avail of . 

Will start by setting the UB900 to 4:2:2 since the Lumagen only has the 9ghz boards and then set the input/output to rec.2020 or auto . Baby steps from there, I have a long way to go. My only goal last evening with my limited time was to replace the HD Fury with the Lumagen and I failed . Attempt # 2 tonight.


----------



## SJHT

roxiedog13 said:


> Hooked up per the owners manual HDMI 1 out to AVR and output 2 HDMI to JVC600 . I don't get any picture through from the Panny UB900. Per page 7, # 6 I tried to selecting input button, then button #1 , the screen remains green. Yes, a green blank screen. Manual says I should be able to select the input and as long as the source device is active I should see the video. No Video , just green blank screen .I can select the Menu, cannot seem to get through that quagmire yet, certainly not intuitive, to me anyway, I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point. For the price I'm not overly happy with the menu screen that's for sure.
> 
> More worried about the green screen to start out, is that normal? If I remove the Lumagen and plug in the HD Fury I was trying to replace in the first place, all is good.


Which model do you have? The default for video for a 444x is Output 4, but you may have a 424x which then is as you describe.... Obviously this can be all changed as you get used to the interface. Also, the syncing with the RS600 (which I also have), takes time depending on what changes to the input/output have occurred. But that usually is a BLUE screen before it switches/syncs. SJ


----------



## Bill DePalma

roxiedog13 said:


> Appreciate the encouragement, thanks. I'm going to give the Lumagen an honest effort before I throw in the towel . My original plan changed and I was going to get rid of the Lumagen but as you say it has some excellent processing and I also need it to do a calibrations as I am forced to do due to the absence of a professional I can avail of .
> 
> Will start by setting the UB900 to 4:2:2 since the Lumagen only has the 9ghz boards and then set the input/output to rec.2020 or auto . Baby steps from there, I have a long way to go. My only goal last evening with my limited time was to replace the HD Fury with the Lumagen and I failed . Attempt # 2 tonight.


I also have the pro feeding an RS600. I would suggest patience, you will figure this out. Since you are at stage 1, I would make sure your cabling is up to the task, and then make sure your firmware is up to date. I have been through all the frustrations of not getting a video signal. Try the Lumagen with a an 1080 input device and work up from there. Bottom line is that, it does work and it is worth the effort.
good luck
Bill d


----------



## roxiedog13

*4440 issues*



Bill DePalma said:


> I also have the pro feeding an RS600. I would suggest patience, you will figure this out. Since you are at stage 1, I would make sure your cabling is up to the task, and then make sure your firmware is up to date. I have been through all the frustrations of not getting a video signal. Try the Lumagen with a an 1080 input device and work up from there. Bottom line is that, it does work and it is worth the effort.
> good luck
> Bill d



I went through the cabling issue as well, that's all sorted out. Firmware will happen tonight , onward from there in baby steps. Too many variables right now, really confusing, especially when equipment is really not up to the task in the first place. On my third set of cables and second 4K player now. The new JVC RS600 requires a learning curve, even the new Denon 7200Wa I just purchased is giving me grief. 


Right now things are working well with the Lumagen out and the HD Fury in stripping HDR but tht will change tonight hopefully . 


If I only intend to run 4K HDR stripped to SDR B2020 WCG do I need the new 18 ghz board installed. I'm thinking I will be ok as long as I run 4:2:2 correct?


----------



## Bill DePalma

I think you would only need the 18ghz card for the Samsung player. You should be OK. 
You are so right, way too many variables.


----------



## henrich3

roxiedog13 said:


> Hooked up per the owners manual HDMI 1 out to AVR and output 2 HDMI to JVC600 . I don't get any picture through from the Panny UB900. Per page 7, # 6 I tried to selecting input button, then button #1 , the screen remains green. Yes, a green blank screen. Manual says I should be able to select the input and as long as the source device is active I should see the video. No Video , just green blank screen .I can select the Menu, cannot seem to get through that quagmire yet, certainly not intuitive, to me anyway, I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point. For the price I'm not overly happy with the menu screen that's for sure.
> 
> More worried about the green screen to start out, is that normal? If I remove the Lumagen and plug in the HD Fury I was trying to replace in the first place, all is good.


- The Radiance Pro Owner's Manual (page 7) recommends outputting audio on HDMI 1 and video on HDMI 4. That HDMI 4 video out from the Pro should go to the HDMI 1 input on your JVC.

- When I first tried sending UHD to the Pro, the Pro's status screen showed an input resolution of *3840*x2160p and an output of *4096*x2160p. If yours is wrong too, go into the _Video Output_ menu and change it to match the input.

- The Panasonic should be configured to output 2160p24 422 12-bit. If it's not, go into the Panny's "_4K(50p/60p) Output_" menu and select "_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_". That should output 2160p60 444 8-bit for the Panny menu, and 2160p24 422 12-bit when playing UHD Blu-rays. *The JVC is very slow to sync with resolution changes. You might need to blindly arrow up and press "Enter" on the Panny's remote after selecting the resolution change, otherwise you may not see the confirmation screen before it times out & reverts to the lower resolution.

- I had seen some green screens if my Integral was inline with the Pro. If you want to use the Integral, configure it to use one of the Automix options. Those eliminated the green screen.

- Green screens are usually due to a mismatch between the color space settings in the source & display. Ensure that the JVC's _Input Signal_ -> _Color Space_ is set to "Auto". The Pro should be outputting YCbCr 4:2:2. Verify that using the Pro's status screen.

Hope that helps...


----------



## henrich3

roxiedog13 said:


> If I only intend to run 4K HDR stripped to SDR B2020 WCG do I need the new 18 ghz board installed. I'm thinking I will be ok as long as I run 4:2:2 correct?


No. Yes.


----------



## MJV29

Just as Bill said, you don't need the 18ghz card unless your using the Samsung because it runs everything in 4:4:4. High speed hdmi cables that are 10.2 ghz will run 4:2:2 just fine and that's why you are able to see 4K with the Lumagen. Most UHD players are running in 4:2:2 or your able to change the video color. This is why the Samsung doesn't work in 4K with the Lumagen or converts it into rec .709 It's a little aggravating because it's Samsungs fault for not being able to change the video to 4:2:2. This is my understanding.


----------



## roxiedog13

henrich3 said:


> - The Radiance Pro Owner's Manual (page 7) recommends outputting audio on HDMI 1 and video on HDMI 4. That HDMI 4 video out from the Pro should go to the HDMI 1 input on your JVC.
> 
> - When I first tried sending UHD to the Pro, the Pro's status screen showed an input resolution of *3840*x2160p and an output of *4096*x2160p. If yours is wrong too, go into the _Video Output_ menu and change it to match the input.
> 
> - The Panasonic should be configured to output 2160p24 422 12-bit. If it's not, go into the Panny's "_4K(50p/60p) Output_" menu and select "_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_". That should output 2160p60 444 8-bit for the Panny menu, and 2160p24 422 12-bit when playing UHD Blu-rays. *The JVC is very slow to sync with resolution changes. You might need to blindly arrow up and press "Enter" on the Panny's remote after selecting the resolution change, otherwise you may not see the confirmation screen before it times out & reverts to the lower resolution.
> 
> - I had seen some green screens if my Integral was inline with the Pro. If you want to use the Integral, configure it to use one of the Automix options. Those eliminated the green screen.
> 
> - Green screens are usually due to a mismatch between the color space settings in the source & display. Ensure that the JVC's _Input Signal_ -> _Color Space_ is set to "Auto". The Pro should be outputting YCbCr 4:2:2. Verify that using the Pro's status screen.
> 
> Hope that helps...



FINALLY, some success ! 
Did the Firmware update and set it up to output 2020 WCG SDR . Input 1 is set up for the Panny 4K, Input 2 is for the Oppo 103D. The Panny runs the 3D well , don't even need the Oppo now.  


So, thanks guys( and Jim), this was a successful night. Next up calibration. Doesn't look like I need one though, the picture now looks awesome. The HDR had a red push and even the 3D 1080P looks a little red, will adjust that next time around.


----------



## GerryWaz

Speaking of the new 18 ghz board, is the beta over for that yet? Are they available for order?


----------



## ScottJ

SJHT said:


> I have a 16:9 screen. When watching 2.4 content with black bars on the top or bottom, is there a way to move the picture down to the bottom of my 16:9 screen? I sometimes zoom a little to make the picture a little bigger, but still would love to move the entire picture down towards the bottom of my 16:9 screen. I.e. More black bar on the top and none on the bottom but the black edge of the screen. Thanks. SJ


Yes there is; I do this with my Radiance XE. Look in the owner's manual for a feature called vertical shift. It might be in the styles menu? It's been a long time since I set it up.


----------



## SJHT

ScottJ said:


> Yes there is; I do this with my Radiance XE. Look in the owner's manual for a feature called vertical shift. It might be in the styles menu? It's been a long time since I set it up.


Thanks. I will check it out. SJ


----------



## Nudgiator

GerryWaz said:


> Speaking of the new 18 ghz board, is the beta over for that yet? Are they available for order?


Gordon wrote the following in a german forum:

_The 18GHz production update boards are starting to ship to EU in my next shipment from USA, probably due end of next week. 

_So I think they are available now


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

*CalMAN 2016 5.7.1 Open Beta - Build: 2407 Released @ 09 September 2016*

*Release Notes for Lumagen Radiance Pro Users*

Added HDR pattern generator support for the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

This is pattern generator only.

We do not yet recommend attempting to create HDR calibrations in the Radiance.

*Download Links*


----------



## sjschaff

*090216 speeds display*

This latest update had the beneficial effect of having the display more quickly come up on my JVC RS500. Where it took about 15 seconds from the launch of a Windows 10 mkv or iso or other video file to appear in the past, it now is down to a few seconds at most. Launching the file tells Windows 10 to start the Kodi app which proceeds to play audio and video into the Lumagen Pro (connected to Anthem D2V audio and JVC projector). Don't know what changed in the code and I didn't notice any change in Lumagen settings which may have been triggered by this latest update. The update didn't appear to have any timing effects on switching inputs or channels on my TIVO Roamio, however.

Update: after further testing, switching inputs, for example from home theater pc to TIVO, is far more rapid in displaying to the screen. It is on par with the 2 or so seconds described in launching files within the home theater environment.


----------



## jpvision

Need some help, just hooked up a 4240 and would like to apply some noise reduction to the source but I get a message that says menu not enabled. How do I enable?


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates

Beta 090216- Fix for a change in 090116 causing some sources to not want to send 4k60. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

jpvision said:


> Need some help, just hooked up a 4240 and would like to apply some noise reduction to the source but I get a message that says menu not enabled. How do I enable?


The unit is running beta software and all the features are not active yet. This may be one of them. SJ


----------



## OMARDRIS

Bill DePalma said:


> Quick question
> I will soon be getting the Panasonic UHD player and hope to pass the BT2020 profile minus HDR.
> Am I correct in assuming the Lumagen Pro is capable of passing BT2020 with SDR and not HDR? Or, would I need an Integral to accomplish this?
> Playing with settings on my Lumagen Pro being fed by a Samsung UHD player, I don't see a setting for passing BT 2020 with SDR?
> Thanks



Hi,
the Panasonic UHD Player has the option to turn HDR on or off to get HDR/BT2020 or SDR/BT2020. This option takes 
into "Setup/Player Settings/HDMI/Advanced Settings/High Dynamic Range Output".
Unfortunately the Samsung UHD player K8500 has not this option.

If you use the Global Settings for HDR and BT2020 of the Radiance pro, the players react very differently. If you turn there HDR off, then the Samsung delivers SDR/709. I see at the moment no possibility to get a signal with SDR/BT2020 on the Samsung K8500 and the Radiance pro.


Peter


----------



## stanger89

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> the Panasonic UHD Player has the option to turn HDR on or off to get HDR/BT2020 or SDR/BT2020


Everything I've seen says if you use that (rather than EDID manipulation) you lose Rec.2020 color.


----------



## Wookii

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> the Panasonic UHD Player has the option to turn HDR on or off to get HDR/BT2020 or SDR/BT2020.


No it doesn't Peter, the options are HDR/2020 or SDR/709. Only with a device inline after the Panny (such as a Lumagen Radiance Pro or a HDFury Integral) to report to the Panny compatibility with Rec2020 but not HDR, can you obtain SDR/2020.


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi, ash on my head 
Sorry, then I misunderstood the operating instructions of the Pana. Then it is more a coincidence that you receives SDR/BT2020. With the Samsung UHD Player that does not work.
Precisely for this reason I hope that Lumagen still installs the option to disable HDR for Output. See my Question in Post 755.
Peter


----------



## MJV29

My understanding is the reason that it works for the Panasonic is because you can choose 4:2:2 while taking out HDR. The Samsung only sends 4:4:4 which you need an 18ghz card for. If you have the 18ghz card in the Lumagen Pro it will send HDR and you will be able to do HDR/.2020 or SDR/.2020.


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi,
You're right. I've just tested again with Input 1 of 18GHz Alpha Board. I thought that I would have already been tested.
If one is set in Global REC2020 = "on" and HDR = "off", then the Samsung sends 4.4.4 SDR/REC2020. This can be clearly seen on the image.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a small mistake in the information display of the Firmware version 090216. Whether HDR/REC2020 or SDR/REC2020 is sent, the Info (OK-Buttom) always shows *SDR*/REC2020. Maybe that occurs only with the 18 GHz board. I will inform Patrick.


Sorry, next time I'll better try it before I post. 
Peter


----------



## Wookii

OMARDRIS said:


> Sorry, next time I'll better try it before I post.
> Peter


No need to apologise, part of the purpose of this thread should be for us beta testers to help one another out.


----------



## Nudgiator

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> You're right. I've just tested again with Input 1 of 18GHz Alpha Board. I thought that I would have already been tested.


Maybe you have tested it with an older firmware. There were a lot of changes within the last days.


----------



## Gotchaa

Nudgiator said:


> Gordon wrote the following in a german forum:
> 
> _The 18GHz production update boards are starting to ship to EU in my next shipment from USA, probably due end of next week.
> 
> _So I think they are available now




I will have a production board on Friday to start testing. The 09022016 update really does not work well with the Alpha card.


----------



## OMARDRIS

OMARDRIS said:


> Unfortunately, there seems to be a small mistake in the information display of the Firmware version 090216. Whether HDR/REC2020 or SDR/REC2020 is sent, the Info (OK-Buttom) always shows *SDR*/REC2020. Maybe that occurs only with the 18 GHz board. I will inform Patrick.


Hi,
The small mistake ist fixed in 090316. Thanks Patrick 
Peter


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 090316- Fix for not detecting HDR correctly in 0901-090216. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## GerryWaz

Nudgiator said:


> Gordon wrote the following in a german forum:
> 
> _The 18GHz production update boards are starting to ship to EU in my next shipment from USA, probably due end of next week.
> 
> _So I think they are available now


THANKS!  Ordered a production board yesterday from Lumagen.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FAQ for 18GHz production cards?*

Is there an updated FAQ (AVS or at Lumagen) about the 18GHz production cards?

Here is what I had before...



> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-21.html#post45455793
> 
> Originally Posted by Mike_WI
> I'm likely less savvy than many on this thread, but a few basic questions:
> 1) the 18 GHz HDR input/outputs are only needed for HDR sources.
> So, presumably all inputs don't need this until -- eventually -- HDR becomes much more common.
> 2) Is there any utility in 18 GHz inputs without 18 GHz outputs?
> 3) Can 18 GHz input boards be added later for $200 as needed (for current owners) are only if purchased now.
> Mike
> To add to Nudgiator's response to Mike questions:
> 
> 1) 18 GHz allows 4k60, 4:4:4, 8-bit, or (what would be a better choice IMO) 4k60, 4:2:2, 12-bit. The later better supports the HDR requirements for 4k60 HDR sources since it is >10-bits. Settop boxes and some players/streamers prefer 4:4:4 output. I would prefer 4:2:2 12-bit for 4k60 even for OSD's.
> 
> 2) Yes, 18 GHz inputs with 9 GHz outputs is very useful. My recommendation is to upgrade to some 18 GHz inputs on the Pro for HDR capable sources when they become available. You can use a passive 4k rated 6 foot from the source to the Radiance Pro. Then I recommend leaving the outputs at 9 GHz for a while. The Pro can output 4k60, 8-bit, 4:2:0 for 60 Hz sources since there is not likely to be much decent 4k60 HDR material for a while. Using 9 GHz output from the Pro allows HDR movies at 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2, which is more than the 10-bit depth in HDR sources. Putting off 18 GHz output on the Pro will delay the potential nightmare that long 18 GHz cables can cause, and maybe the HDMI cables will improve 18 GHz performance in the mean time.
> 
> 3) The special on 18 GHz input cards at $200 with trade-in of a 9 GHz card is a limited time offer. I am thinking the offer will be in place for the rest of 2016, but we reserve the right to change this to an earlier or later date.



Would be great to know:
1. Retail and "buy now" prices
2. Use cases
3. Anything else...


Mike


----------



## henrich3

It would also be nice to have an updated estimate on when the HDR to SDR shaping LUT firmware update will be available. My calibration is waiting on this & the LightSpace patch to take advantage of it.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 091116- Changed output colorspace command settings in menu under Output: CMS's:CMSX:Colorspace to set SDR or HDR (high dynamic range) in conjunction with the colorspace. Prior to this HDR would be set on output if active from the source. This behavior still holds true with the 'Auto' colorspace setting but can be now manually overridden with other output colorspace settings. Added per memory EDID options in menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Video EDID . The per memory EDID options default to using the global EDID options but can be modified if needed. Added direct menu code, "menu 0827", to implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16. Improvements in rs232 interface for calibration software. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Nudgiator

*Implementation of a 4k-Darbee inside of the Radiance Pro*

I just found this about a Darbee for 4k: http://hometheaterhifi.com/press-re...ual-presence-image-processing-demonstrations/

The interesting part:

_About 4K/UHD DARBEE Visual Presence Technology:

** ● 4K/UHD DVP IP is validated for hardware in the Altera Aria II GX FPGA device
* ● 4K/UHD DVP IP can be implemented in FPGA, ASIC, or SoC hardware
*
The IP processing is:

* 4096 x 2160 pixel resolution
* 30 bits/color (probably, maybe 24)
* YUV color space
* HDMI 2.0 compliant
* HDCP 2.2 compliant_

My question to Jim: do you have any news about that 4k-Darbee and is it possible to implement it inside of the Radiance Pro? 

To all owners of a Radiance Pro there: it's for sure that such an upgrade will cost some money because Darbee wants a lot of money for it. But I appreciate the Darbee very much for 2k material and I think a Darbee for 4k would be very useful too.


----------



## Mark_H

I immediately missed Darbee processing when I started viewing 4K material, so would be interested to see what it can do with UHD.


----------



## Nudgiator

Mark_H said:


> I immediately missed Darbee processing when I started viewing 4K material, so would be interested to see what it can do with UHD.


Yes, it's exactly the same for me. So I would really appreciate an implementation inside of the Radiance Pro, also when I have to pay a few hundred bucks for that


----------



## MJV29

I like the Darbee 2K as well so count me in on the Darbee 4K version if it can be implemented!


----------



## telem

Cannot get the Sony VW-5000ES to receive HDR through the Radiance Pro, with both the Panasonic UB900 and the Xbox One S. Tried with different cables without success. All units have the latest firmware. I thought that the problem was with the Sony but after modifying a setting it worked, but only when the Panasonic player and the Xbox One S are directly connected to it. No way to send HDR when going through the Lumagen. HDR setting in the Lumagen is set to Auto for both sources and I am using the global settings.
Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## kaotikr1

telem said:


> Cannot get the Sony VW-5000ES to receive HDR through the Radiance Pro, with both the Panasonic UB900 and the Xbox One S. Tried with different cables without success. All units have the latest firmware. I thought that the problem was with the Sony but after modifying a setting it worked, but only when the Panasonic player and the Xbox One S are directly connected to it. No way to send HDR when going through the Lumagen. HDR setting in the Lumagen is set to Auto for both sources and I am using the global settings.
> 
> Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your help.




Have you tried setting it to on instead of auto to test?


----------



## henrich3

telem said:


> Cannot get the Sony VW-5000ES to receive HDR through the Radiance Pro, with both the Panasonic UB900 and the Xbox One S. Tried with different cables without success. All units have the latest firmware. I thought that the problem was with the Sony but after modifying a setting it worked, but only when the Panasonic player and the Xbox One S are directly connected to it. No way to send HDR when going through the Lumagen. HDR setting in the Lumagen is set to Auto for both sources and I am using the global settings.
> Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your help.


If you haven't already done so, go into the Setup menu in your UB900 and set
_HDMI -> 4K(50p/60p) Output -> 4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_

The "_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_" option will allow the player to output 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit. That signal has a 9 Gbps data rate, and unless you've upgraded your Pro with 18 Gbps input boards it may have problems with the higher data rate that the UB900 sends by default.

If your XBox has the ability to change its output resolution/chroma/bit depth to 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit, try that.

I'm not sure if those changes will resolve the HDR problems, but they ought to be made to make the signals compatible with the Pro's 9 Gbps input boards. If you're still having problems after the changes, it might be helpful to see a pic of your Pro's status display when you're playing HDR content.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wouldn't setting 4K 60p to 4:4:4 be a bit much for bandwidth? Or is it 8 bit output for 60p? If you select 4:2:2 out for the UB900 wouldn't you get the same thing for 4:2:2 12-bit?


----------



## henrich3

Kris Deering said:


> Wouldn't setting 4K 60p to 4:4:4 be a bit much for bandwidth? Or is it 8 bit output for 60p? If you select 4:2:2 out for the UB900 wouldn't you get the same thing for 4:2:2 12-bit?


If you set the Panny's "_4K(50p/60p) Output_" menu to “_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_”, it will output 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit when you're playing UHD content. The data rate for that signal type is 8.9 Gbps.

*Acoustic Frontiers HDMI Data Rate Chart*









I haven't looked at the Pro's status screen when it's displaying the Panny's menu using that config. The player might be sending a data rate for its menu that's too high, but the Pro hasn't had any problems displaying it so I've just focused on setting the option correctly for UHD content.


----------



## Kris Deering

The Pro's menu never states the bit depth or data rate, so all I see is the input color space. How are you verifying bit depth out of the Panasonic?


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> The Pro's menu never states the bit depth or data rate, so all I see is the input color space. How are you verifying bit depth out of the Panasonic?


If you press the Playback Info (can't remember the exact name) button, the Panny will show a top info bar with its current input and output.


----------



## henrich3

Kris Deering said:


> The Pro's menu never states the bit depth or data rate, so all I see is the input color space. How are you verifying bit depth out of the Panasonic?


Using the player's info screen -









The top line shows what's on the disc. The third line shows what the player is outputting.

(That's acually a picture of my Phillips BDP7501 menu, but the Panny's menu is similar.)


----------



## Wookii

henrich3 said:


> If you set the Panny's "_4K(50p/60p) Output_" menu to “_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_”, it will output 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit when you're playing UHD content. The data rate for that signal type is 8.9 Gbps.


I'm pretty sure I have mine set to 4K 50p/60p 4:2:0, and it still outputs 2160P/24 @ 4:2:2 12bit, on UHD discs - but now you have me wanting to double check!


----------



## Kris Deering

So if you're converting HDR to SDR are you limited to an 8 bit output regardless? Or is there a way to still get 12 bit out into the Radiance?


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> So if you're converting HDR to SDR are you limited to an 8 bit output regardless? Or is there a way to still get 12 bit out into the Radiance?


Yes, if you set HDR=No, and Rec2020=Yes in the Radiance Global settings, the Panny will output 2160p/24 SDR Rec2020 4:2:2 12bit.


----------



## FreMo

henrich3 said:


> Using the player's info screen -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The top line shows what's on the disc. The third line shows what the player is outputting.
> 
> (That's acually a picture of my Phillips BDP7501 menu, but the Panny's menu is similar.)


Why do you use a conversion in the player? Isn t it better to perfom the conversion inside the Radiance?


----------



## telem

kaotikr1 said:


> Have you tried setting it to on instead of auto to test?


Yes I have, still doesn't work....


----------



## telem

henrich3 said:


> If you haven't already done so, go into the Setup menu in your UB900 and set
> _HDMI -> 4K(50p/60p) Output -> 4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_
> 
> The "_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_" option will allow the player to output 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit. That signal has a 9 Gbps data rate, and unless you've upgraded your Pro with 18 Gbps input boards it may have problems with the higher data rate that the UB900 sends by default.
> 
> If your XBox has the ability to change its output resolution/chroma/bit depth to 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit, try that.
> 
> I'm not sure if those changes will resolve the HDR problems, but they ought to be made to make the signals compatible with the Pro's 9 Gbps input boards. If you're still having problems after the changes, it might be helpful to see a pic of your Pro's status display when you're playing HDR content.


Many thanks I will try and let you know !


----------



## henrich3

FreMo said:


> Why do you use a conversion in the player? Isn t it better to perfom the conversion inside the Radiance?


I don't, and it is. I took that pic to show the Radiance and UHD player settings back when I was getting video dropouts after the Pro's HDR firmware update was released. I posted it again this morning just to show Kris that the UB900 displays the bit depth. My video dropouts were due to a Genlock issue. After that was resolved by disabling the feature, I also disabled HDR in my Pro so my pj will get SDR/Rec.2020.


----------



## [email protected]

I m curious, overall what are the main benefits of the lumagen over just processing the components in the actual device? In that do you see a real difference? I know right now with UHD and HDR so many different options in that having a processor that does them all is great but beyond that aspects what are the advantages to the lumagen? Also is calibration much better than using say a CAlman and software from them? Expesnive piece and curious if helpful for projector as well as OLED use. Have a Sony 1100 currently but planning to upgrade to new projector this year as well as C65 inch OLED. 

-Rob


----------



## [email protected]

Also, can these be used to convert cinescope material to 16*9 to fill screen without masking? Is that worth it as well or just keeping standard dimensions and masking more effective?


----------



## Kris Deering

The Radiance is a pretty powerful piece of video processing technology. To go over all the things it can do would be exhausting, so you should look at their product page on their website. Highlights include top of the line scaling, zooming, and switching but the big draw for many is calibration. For a lot of displays you get a simple cut and gain calibration option for grayscale and single point color. With the Lumagen you get 21 point grayscale calibration and a 17x17x17 LUT for color (4913 points). It is also driven automatically by most of the popular calibration software suites out there and it is its own pattern generator.


----------



## [email protected]

Thanks, went to website and read on on manual and documentation there. I was reviewing here but wasnt sure, are the new 18Ghz boards available now or still in beta testing? Will it be all outputs and input for new boards in future? 

Also, am confused on the benefit on the matrix switching? Can I use the 4446 multiple outputs for different screens? and if so, what is the benefit on the 4449 with matrix above and beyond having more output to use for different sources? I just dont understand what the "matrix switching" part provides. thanks for the help. 

Rob


----------



## tspotorno

I just received my production 18ghz cards yesterday. I'll be installing them shortly.


----------



## uderman

[email protected] said:


> Thanks, went to website and read on on manual and documentation there. I was reviewing here but wasnt sure, are the new 18Ghz boards available now or still in beta testing? Will it be all outputs and input for new boards in future?
> 
> Also, am confused on the benefit on the matrix switching? Can I use the 4446 multiple outputs for different screens? and if so, what is the benefit on the 4449 with matrix above and beyond having more output to use for different sources? I just dont understand what the "matrix switching" part provides. thanks for the help.
> 
> Rob



You can feed all your sources into 4449 and then distribute to multiple rooms with its 6 extra zone outputs. Each room can access any source independently. You can have a different source routed each zone for instance. These zone outputs aren't scaled to be noted. So you only have the native resolution of each source.

Benefits,

Since everything is fed into 4449, you can take advantage of pip/pop(future fw) on your main zone.

We are only two in our home but have tvs in 4 zones. I use two tivo(cable dvr) and spread them to all 4. Each one of us can access any tivo from any room. This saves a bit on cable box rent but the main advantage is two channels at once on the main display once pip/pop is implemented.


----------



## tspotorno

Just finished installing the updated 18ghz boards, got 2 of them.

Boards were revision 1.1 vs 1.0

I'm curious, how many people have purchased the 18ghz OUTPUT board as well?

And to continue the discussion, my inputs are going to be KScape Strato, Oppo 4k BlueRay player when it is released, Roku4 and a DirecTV box.

Is a 18ghz output card necessary?


----------



## netroamer

tspotorno said:


> Just finished installing the updated 18ghz boards, got 2 of them.
> 
> Boards were revision 1.1 vs 1.0
> 
> I'm curious, how many people have purchased the 18ghz OUTPUT board as well?
> 
> And to continue the discussion, my inputs are going to be KScape Strato, Oppo 4k BlueRay player when it is released, Roku4 and a DirecTV box.
> 
> Is a 18ghz output card necessary?


The 18ghz output card will not be available until November. If you want to pass the full potential bandwidth of 4k...then yes it is needed.


----------



## JFR0317

tspotorno said:


> Just finished installing the updated 18ghz boards, got 2 of them.
> 
> Boards were revision 1.1 vs 1.0
> 
> I'm curious, how many people have purchased the 18ghz OUTPUT board as well?
> 
> And to continue the discussion, my inputs are going to be KScape Strato, Oppo 4k BlueRay player when it is released, Roku4 and a DirecTV box.
> 
> Is a 18ghz output card necessary?


You shouldn't need an 18 GHz output card with your Sony 1100ES. I also have an 1100ES and am not planning on updating the Radiance Pro output cards until if/when I replace my 1100ES with a projector capable of receiving 18 GHz bandwidth signals. I am getting the 18 GHz input cards (due to be delivered next week) to minimize any handshake issues between my sources (principally the Samsung UHD player) and the Lumagen.

In addition to the Samsung UHD player, I am currently using a Kaleidescape Strato, a Roku 4, and a DirecTV C61K 4K satellite box. All of these are sent from my Radiance Pro to my 1100ES at a 9 to 10 GHz bandwidth signal as that is the maximum capability of the 1100ES's HDMI input. Such a bandwidth allows up to 4K60 8-bit signals.


----------



## telem

Could you please let me know how long is the HDMI cable between your Pro and your projector? You can PM me as well. Mine is 15m and I guess it's because of this length that I have many handshake issues between my 4K sources and the Lumagen. It works when I turn it on but when I switch few times between sources(HDCP 1.x & 2.x) I have to reboot both the Lumagen and the VW5000.....
HDCP 2.x sources are the Panasonic UHD player, a Kaleidescape Strato, Xbox One S and a Roku 4.

I was also thinking to remove the HDCP 1.x sources connected to the Lumagen and connect them back to the Trinnov Altitude(No HDCP 2.x it's one of the first production models, serial nr under #20...). Is it possible that the mix of HDCP 1.x & 2.x sources and switch between those, causes a problem and blocks the Lumagen?

Many thanks!


----------



## JFR0317

telem said:


> Could you please let me know how long is the HDMI cable between your Pro and your projector? You can PM me as well. Mine is 15m and I guess it's because of this length that I have many handshake issues between my 4K sources and the Lumagen. It works when I turn it on
> Many thanks!


The HDMI cable between my Radiance Pro is aprroximately 10 meters (35 feet) long. It is an active cable that was put in by my installer when the projector was installed. Jim Peterson has previously recommended Redmere active cables for long runs. I am using 2 meter passive cables from all of my sources to the Lumagen per Jim's recommendation.

That said, I will probably have to look at another cable solution for the Lumagen output if/when I get a new projector capable of receiving 18 GHz bandwidth signals.


----------



## henrich3

tspotorno said:


> Just finished installing the updated 18ghz boards, got 2 of them.
> 
> Boards were revision 1.1 vs 1.0
> 
> I'm curious, how many people have purchased the 18ghz OUTPUT board as well?
> 
> And to continue the discussion, my inputs are going to be KScape Strato, Oppo 4k BlueRay player when it is released, Roku4 and a DirecTV box.
> 
> *Is a 18ghz output card necessary?*


Here's a chart showing the HDMI data rates for different signal types:










If you can configure your UHD sources and the Radiance Pro's output to send 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit (8.9 Gbps data rate), for example, then all you need are 9 Gbps HDMI cards. If you have a source like Samsung's K8500 UHD player that has a fixed 2160p60 4:4:4 8-bit (18 Gbps) initial menu, then you may need an 18 Gbps input board to see that menu. Some 60 fps UHD/HDR streaming sources use signal types that also need more than 9 Gbps. If you want the Pro to output a signal type that has a data rate of more than 9 Gbps, you probably need an 18 Gbps output board.


----------



## netroamer

telem said:


> Could you please let me know how long is the HDMI cable between your Pro and your projector? You can PM me as well. Mine is 15m and I guess it's because of this length that I have many handshake issues between my 4K sources and the Lumagen. It works when I turn it on but when I switch few times between sources(HDCP 1.x & 2.x) I have to reboot both the Lumagen and the VW5000.....
> HDCP 2.x sources are the Panasonic UHD player, a Kaleidescape Strato, Xbox One S and a Roku 4.
> 
> I was also thinking to remove the HDCP 1.x sources connected to the Lumagen and connect them back to the Trinnov Altitude(No HDCP 2.x it's one of the first production models, serial nr under #20...). Is it possible that the mix of HDCP 1.x & 2.x sources and switch between those, causes a problem and blocks the Lumagen?
> 
> Many thanks!


I am using twin 40' Monoprice Cabernet cables to both inputs of the Sony 5000ES projector with no issue. I did have the same type of issues you describe until I replaced my input cables to the Pro with tested 6' 18ghz cables for all inputs. Since then I have had only a couple of instances with failed switching.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 091516- Fix for an issue with rs232 calibration sw communication sometime corrupting test pattern. Eliminated visual artifact with interlaced source when switching between 2 inputs. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Hi all,

This is preview of upcoming LightSpace release, you can see the HDR patch generation options, for total control of InfoFrame data Lumagen Radiance PRO will send to the target display/projector.


----------



## dlinsley

Can you do an autocal for BT2020 SDR with Calman yet? I saw the earlier post about the latest Calman beta having some Radiance HDR pattern support, but I'd settle for SDR on my projector


----------



## Mark_H

dlinsley said:


> Can you do an autocal for BT2020 SDR with Calman yet?


Yes.


----------



## lovingdvd

I have a Marantz 8802a and JVC RS509, so full support for 18 Gb/s with full HDMI spec. Can any of the Radiance 4K Pro units (or otherwise) be used while still allowing me to have the on screen display of the 8802a? That was the main reason I decided not to get a radiance for my new theater/setup. 

In the past I use a Raidsnce XD mainly as a way to do auto calibration with Calman Enthusiast. So this time around I was going to use the autocal and skip on the radiance so I would still have my OSD from the Marantz. However now that the 18ghz cards are seemingly available and Calman can support HDR/SDR calibration (?) I'd like to consider a radiance as long as it doesn't mean losing the OSD?


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Yes.


I've been told 'No'? I know Kris was looking into this too, maybe he or Jim can confirm.


----------



## thrang

telem said:


> Cannot get the Sony VW-5000ES to receive HDR through the Radiance Pro, with both the Panasonic UB900 and the Xbox One S. Tried with different cables without success. All units have the latest firmware. I thought that the problem was with the Sony but after modifying a setting it worked, but only when the Panasonic player and the Xbox One S are directly connected to it. No way to send HDR when going through the Lumagen. HDR setting in the Lumagen is set to Auto for both sources and I am using the global settings.
> Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your help.





kaotikr1 said:


> Have you tried setting it to on instead of auto to test?





henrich3 said:


> If you haven't already done so, go into the Setup menu in your UB900 and set
> _HDMI -> 4K(50p/60p) Output -> 4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_
> 
> The "_4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4_" option will allow the player to output 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit. That signal has a 9 Gbps data rate, and unless you've upgraded your Pro with 18 Gbps input boards it may have problems with the higher data rate that the UB900 sends by default.
> 
> If your XBox has the ability to change its output resolution/chroma/bit depth to 2160p24 4:2:2 12-bit, try that.
> 
> I'm not sure if those changes will resolve the HDR problems, but they ought to be made to make the signals compatible with the Pro's 9 Gbps input boards. If you're still having problems after the changes, it might be helpful to see a pic of your Pro's status display when you're playing HDR content.


I am having the same issue - no HDR to the 5000 via the Lumagen, only 2020 SDR from the Panasonic. This is through the upgraded 18 gbps boards as well as the older 9 ports. Without the Lumagen, HDR works fine to the 5000.

I've tried HDR On instead of auto in the Pro, no difference. I'll try henrich's suggestion next....telem, did you get this to work yet, and if so, what was the resolution?

Thanks


----------



## telem

thrang said:


> I am having the same issue - no HDR to the 5000 via the Lumagen, only 2020 SDR from the Panasonic. This is through the upgraded 18 gbps boards as well as the older 9 ports. Without the Lumagen, HDR works fine to the 5000.
> 
> I've tried HDR On instead of auto in the Pro, no difference. I'll try henrich's suggestion next....telem, did you get this to work yet, and if so, what was the resolution?
> 
> Thanks


Yes I experimented last night and now it works(although I can't say I am impressed by the picture with my calibrated settings-too dark). I followed henrich's suggestion(THANKS !) and I also turned the Output HDR On at the Lumagen, bypassing the global settings. I cannot get 24p though, only 50hz output from the Panasonic. Is this normal? 
No way to make the Xbox output HDR through the Pro despite the fact that Xbox settings display that it is compatible and I can activate HDR(I couldn't do that before switching the Pro's HDR setting to on). 

Looking forward to the Strato's 7.3 update in order to further test.


----------



## thrang

telem said:


> Yes I experimented last night and now it works(although I can't say I am impressed by the picture with my calibrated settings-too dark). I followed henrich's suggestion(THANKS !) and I also turned the Output HDR On at the Lumagen, bypassing the global settings. I cannot get 24p though, only 50hz output from the Panasonic. Is this normal?
> No way to make the Xbox output HDR through the Pro despite the fact that Xbox settings display that it is compatible and I can activate HDR(I couldn't do that before switching the Pro's HDR setting to on).
> 
> Looking forward to the Strato's 7.3 update in order to further test.


Thanks, will try the output setting today, that's the last thing left.

I am getting great results with HDR on the 5000 - you do need to adjust the Panny's video settings a bit until the HDR slider is released from Sony I think...

What is Strato's 7.3 update?


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> I've been told 'No'? I know Kris was looking into this too, maybe he or Jim can confirm.


Rec BT 2020 SDR is now a colorspace target in the current version of CalMAN, so the answer is YES.

Doing HDR LUT is currently not possible AFAIK, although the 1D LUT apparently works ok.


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Rec BT 2020 SDR is now a colorspace target in the current version of CalMAN, so the answer is YES.


Yeah, its been a colour space target for some time, but as I understand the automated interaction between Calman and the Pro, used for the 3D LUT auto-cal, does not work correctly yet, even for SDR Rec2020 resulting in the Rec2020 3D LUT being incorrect.

As i understand it we are waiting on Calman to sort the implementation to work properly on the Radiance Pro.

I will double check with Jim to see if this is definitely still the case.


----------



## telem

thrang said:


> What is Strato's 7.3 update?


Sorry, this is the Kaleidescape Strato UHD player. 

Good luck, let us know if it worked.


----------



## thrang

Oh yeah, oops....

I will, but I don't understand why I would need to do that - the default Panny settings via my 8802 to the 5000 displays 2020 HDR. Something is odd with the lumagen it seems if it requires this to work.


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> As i understand it we are waiting on Calman to sort the implementation to work properly on the Radiance Pro.
> .


We're waiting for HDR support. SDR is there now for ANY colourspace you wish to calibrate to; Rec 709, BT 601, NTSC, 2020. Whether your display can do 2020 is another matter...


----------



## telem

thrang said:


> Something is odd with the lumagen it seems if it requires this to work.


Couldn't agree more..... Unfortunately I can't try via my Trinnov Altitude as it's one of the first production models, and has no HDCP 2.x I/O.......
I am also having some audio issues with the connection Pro --> Altitude. I am currently testing to see where the problem comes from. Will post about it shortly.


----------



## henrich3

thrang said:


> I am having the same issue - no HDR to the 5000 via the Lumagen, only 2020 SDR from the Panasonic. This is through the upgraded 18 gbps boards as well as the older 9 ports. Without the Lumagen, HDR works fine to the 5000.
> 
> I've tried HDR On instead of auto in the Pro, no difference. I'll try henrich's suggestion next....telem, did you get this to work yet, and if so, what was the resolution?
> 
> Thanks


Here's what my Pro's status screen looks like when it's receiving & outputting HDR:










Does your Input Format setting match mine? What's your Output Format & HDCP? I don't know if the Pro will pass HDR if HDCP is set to 1.4. If that's what your status screen shows, try changing it to 2.2.


----------



## thrang

henrich3 said:


> Here's what my Pro's status screen looks like when it's receiving & outputting HDR:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does your Input Format setting match mine? What's your Output Format & HDCP? I don't know if the Pro will pass HDR if HDCP is set to 1.4. If that's what your status screen shows, try changing it to 2.2.


No, input format is SDR709 - the resolution is correct, and HDCP is 2.2

I will try your Panny video setting change shortly, but I'm not sure why one should have to do that with the Lumagen - without the Pro, perfect 2020 HDR form the Panny via the 8802a to the 5000

I'l try and post a few screen shots of my settings and info windows if I'm still stuck. Finishing cleaning the room after putting new LSR 705 tops in, and mounting the 5000 yesterday

Thanks
Greg


----------



## henrich3

thrang said:


> No, *input format is SDR709* - the resolution is correct, and HDCP is 2.2
> 
> I will try your Panny video setting change shortly, but I'm not sure why one should have to do that with the Lumagen - without the Pro, perfect 2020 HDR form the Panny via the 8802a to the 5000
> 
> I'l try and post a few screen shots of my settings and info windows if I'm still stuck. Finishing cleaning the room after putting new LSR 705 tops in, and mounting the 5000 yesterday
> 
> Thanks
> Greg


Your input format should match mine if you're playing a UHD disc and your player settings are correct. The Pro won't output Rec.2020/HDR if the player is sending it Rec.709/SDR. UHD movies include a standard Blu-ray in the case, so make sure that you're playing the UHD disc. 

In the UB900's _Setup_ menu, select :
_HDMI -> 4K(50p/60p) Output -> 4K(50p/60p) 4:4:4
HDMI -> Advanced Settings -> High Dynamic Range Output -> On_

When you're playing a UHD movie, press the player remote's _Option_ button. In the _Operation_ menu, select the _Playback Information Window_. The top line of the player's info window shows what's on the disc. It should report "_3840x2160/24p HDR/BT.2020 YCbCr4:2:0/10bit_". The third line of the info window shows what the player is outputting. It should report "_3840x2160/24p HDR/BT.2020 YCbCr4:2:2/12bit_". If the top line says "_1920x1080/24p SDR/Rec.709_", you're playing a standard Blu-ray, so swap that out for the UHD disc. If the top line says "_3840x2160/24p HDR/BT.2020 YCbCr4:2:0/10bit_" but the third line shows "_3840x2160/24p SDR/Rec.709_", either a player setting is amiss or there's a device inline between the player & Pro (eg. Integral) that's advertising that it's not compatible with HDR/2020.


----------



## telem

This is what I see:


----------



## henrich3

telem said:


> This is what I see:


I'd change the output format to match the input (24 fps, 4:2:2 chroma). Outputting 50 fps will have some judder.


----------



## darrellh44

I have a 4240 arriving soon. I'm in the Dallas area looking for a good calibrator. My projector is an LS10000, so I only need an SDR BT.2020 calibration. Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## henrich3

darrellh44 said:


> I have a 4240 arriving soon. I'm in the Dallas area looking for a good calibrator. My projector is an LS10000, so I only need an SDR BT.2020 calibration. Any recommendations?


You might want to hold off until Lumagen releases their "Shaping LUT" firmware update which can provide a tone mapped SDR output. After that's released & the calibration software vendors have patched their apps, email Lumagen for their calibrator recommendations. You can also try searching for "_Texas_" in the ISF Calibrators thread. If you find someone there, ask if they're able to do a 3D LUT autocal on a Radiance Pro.


----------



## telem

henrich3 said:


> I'd change the output format to match the input (24 fps, 4:2:2 chroma). Outputting 50 fps will have some judder.


Done. Thank you! Is there any recommended output setting? I have just set all my sources to Auto1 output setting.


----------



## darrellh44

When will the shaping LUT firmware be available?


----------



## henrich3

darrellh44 said:


> When will the shaping LUT firmware be available?


I've been wondering the same thing...


----------



## henrich3

telem said:


> Done. Thank you! Is there any recommended output setting? I have just set all my sources to Auto1 output setting.


I go on the assumption that the Pro's scaling & deinterlacing are superior to the scaling & deinterlacing in my sources and display. That being the case, it's usually better to have your sources output the media's native resolution (480i DVD, 1080p Blu-ray) and let the Pro do the scaling & deinterlacing to your display's native resolution. Presumably that's 2160p if you have a Radiance Pro. For UHD, _2160p24 4:2:2 10-bit_ is the best signal type in & out of the Pro since that has an 8.9 Gbps data rate over HDMI. The Pro has 9 Gbps input boards and some UHD signal types have data rates higher than 9 Gbps which can cause reliability issues.


----------



## Nudgiator

henrich3 said:


> I've been wondering the same thing...


Why? Jim said MAYBE there will be such a feature in the future, but surely not yet.


----------



## dlinsley

Mark_H said:


> We're waiting for HDR support. SDR is there now for ANY colourspace you wish to calibrate to; Rec 709, BT 601, NTSC, 2020. Whether your display can do 2020 is another matter...


Do I need to pick the appropriate (configured) CMS slot on the Radiance, and then the test patterns will be output in BT2020 rather than Rec 709? It seems autocal must be close here if not currently 100% auto.


----------



## henrich3

Nudgiator said:


> Why? Jim said MAYBE there will be such a feature in the future, but surely not yet.


JRP spoke about calibrating HDR in post 658:
"_We have an additional feature to implement in the FPGA as part of the work on calibration. This is a "Shaping LUT." Note that a shaping LUT is different than the Tone Mapping being discussed. The shaping LUT is a 1D LUT meant to better match the input Max Light Level to the projector/TV maximum light output. We are discussing Tone Mapping but that is not in the near term plan and it may be that the video calibration pipeline in the Radiance Pro already has the needed flexibility and that calibration software does all the work for tone mapping._"

In post 690 he said
"_At the time of this post, none of the calibration software programs can correctly calibrate the Radiance Pro when using HDR or Rec2020. This is because the operation is different for these than Rec 709 and the changes need to be put in the software programs before they will do the correct calibration. *The Shaping LUT plays into this and it is something we are working on at Lumagen with the calibration software companies.*_"

I assumed from Jim's comments that Lumagen is actively working on incorporating a Shaping LUT feature into the Pro's firmware, and working with calibration software companies so that their programs will work with it. I've been hoping to hear some status on this, as I've been waiting on that feature before I have my pj & Pro calibrated. JVC pj's have significant problems providing a good looking image with HDR content, so my goal is to get a tone mapped SDR output from the Pro, or some solution that looks better than simply clipping the HDR luminance at 100 nits anyway. The Shaping LUT feature should be part of that solution, if I understand it correctly.


----------



## Nudgiator

henrich3 said:


> I assumed from Jim's comments that Lumagen is actively working on incorporating a Shaping LUT feature into the Pro's firmware, and working with calibration software companies so that their programs will work with it. I've been hoping to hear some status on this, as I've been waiting on that feature before I have my pj & Pro calibrated.


Ah, ok. Now I understand what you meant. I thought you speak about the tone mapping. My mistake 



> JVC pj's have significant problems providing a good looking image with HDR content


I am owner of a JVC X7000 ... and HDR looks very, very good. Or do do speak about a former JVC projector?


----------



## henrich3

Nudgiator said:


> Ah, ok. Now I understand what you meant. I thought you speak about the tone mapping. My mistake
> I am owner of a JVC X7000 ... and HDR looks very, very good. Or do do speak about a former JVC projector?


I don't like the reduced dynamic range that HDR provides on JVC pj's. HDR should have a higher dynamic range (obviously) and if you view it on a FALD TV, that's what you'll get. JVC pj's only have around 100 nits brightness however, and SDR content can already take advantage of that. If I send HDR to the JVC it has to lower the brightness of reference white (100 nits) to fit the HDR luminance levels. Doing that makes the all important SDR range dimmer. Adding insult to injury, JVC decided to disable the dynamic iris in HDR mode, so not only are the whites dimmer but the black level is significantly higher. Fade to black scenes look washed out in HDR mode compared to the _Brutal Contrast Monster_ inky blacks of SDR. I got an RS600 because of its impressive black levels and I'm not willing to degrade those for no good reason. UHD/*SDR*/WCG looks _much_ better on the '600, so that's how I roll... 

Viewing SDR/UHD currently involves clipping the HDR luminance levels. A tone mapping solution (shaping LUT & calibration) should make a noticeable improvement by minimizing clipping artifacts.


----------



## Nudgiator

I use the high lamp mode, set the iris to -7 (that results in about 100 nits = enough for my 100" screen) and clip at 100 nits. So the black level and the contrast is at a good level.


----------



## henrich3

Nudgiator said:


> I use the high lamp mode, set the iris to -7 (that results in about 100 nits = enough for my 100" screen) and clip at 100 nits. So the black level and the contrast is at a good level.


There's no way to achieve HDR-level intra-scene contrast with our lamp & iris projector technology. A FALD TV can dim areas of an image to near perfect blackness, while other areas of the screen may have 1000 nit specular highlights (eg. car headlights at night). SDR luminance levels are 0 to 100 nits, and those match the capabilities of our projectors very nicely. Trying to view 1000 nit content on a 100 nit max brightness display doesn't buy you anything. Tone mapping is just a strategy to make that high luminance content look good on a low luminance display. I think that's worth waiting for. YMMV.


----------



## Nudgiator

Well, I know very well what you want to say. That was also one reason I bought the 4446. And yes: I also think, that tone mapping etc. will produce a better HDR picture on the X7000. But at the moment I can live with the 1:10 factor. Sure, it's darker than with real 1000 nits TVs, but it's far away from bad compared with other projectors


----------



## Mark_H

dlinsley said:


> Do I need to pick the appropriate (configured) CMS slot on the Radiance, and then the test patterns will be output in BT2020 rather than Rec 709? It seems autocal must be close here if not currently 100% auto.


There's some confusion here. The test patterns output by any pattern generator, such as the Radiance, are gamut-independent: e.g., a white field is simply a generic white field, a red field is simply a generic red field; they are not Rec709/BT2020/BT601/etc fields. You select the appropriate gamut ON YOUR DISPLAY and then your calibration software will try to get as close as possible to your desired target by measuring the test patterns.

The Pro does, however, support an auto 2020 CMS, so you would want to use that to hold the 2020 LUT generated by the calibration software.

HDR patterns are handled differently due to the required support for meta-data.


----------



## Light Illusion

The first iteration of Lumagen HDR/UHD/WCG display calibration within LightSpace CMS is now in 'Alpha Testing'.

It looks a lot like this:










And the tools for LUT Generation, this with a 617 Nit display, with 4000 Nit mastered footage, with a 90% roll-off to the 4000 Nit peak:










There is more work to do, both from us and Lumagen, but the initial tools are now there.

Steve


----------



## dlinsley

Mark_H said:


> There's some confusion here. The test patterns output by any pattern generator, such as the Radiance, are gamut-independent: e.g., a white field is simply a generic white field, a red field is simply a generic red field; they are not Rec709/BT2020/BT601/etc fields. You select the appropriate gamut ON YOUR DISPLAY and then your calibration software will try to get as close as possible to your desired target by measuring the test patterns.
> 
> The Pro does, however, support an auto 2020 CMS, so you would want to use that to hold the 2020 LUT generated by the calibration software.
> 
> HDR patterns are handled differently due to the required support for meta-data.


Thanks Mark.


----------



## darrellh44

If I were to buy a CMS software/meter package instead of hiring a calibrator, what are some good choices? Is this even a viable option for less than $1000? 3D LUT hardware will be a Radiance 4240, PJ is LS10000, and screen is a 117" wide ST130.

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## sillysally

darrellh44 said:


> If I were to buy a CMS software/meter package instead of hiring a calibrator, what are some good choices? Is this even a viable option for less than $1000? 3D LUT hardware will be a Radiance 4240, PJ is LS10000, and screen is a 117" wide ST130.
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell


Yes it is possible. Calman or ChromaPure (at most $400) D3 meter $225.
imho, LightSpace is a better alternative for 3DLUT's than the above software. 

Here is a link to the limitations of a non lab meters.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...nance-contrast-colorimeters.html#post45874641

Lot of pro calibrators don't use a lab spectro meter to make a meter profile matrix for your PJ and color meter. So making a 3DLUT using say Calman and a D3 meter, a pro probably will not do any better than you.

ss


----------



## jrp

We continue to make progress on HDR and 18 GHz. The Production Hardware 18 GHz input cards for the Radiance Pro are now available for retrofit, or as an option on a new Radiance Pro purchase. The 18 GHz input card has two 18 GHz inputs and replaces one dual 9 GHz input card.

Some sources require 18 GHz cards for 4k24 HDR movies and some do not. For example the Kaleidescape Strato, and the Panasonic UB900 can play 4k24 HDR using 9 GHz using the 4:2:2 12-bit format. Some examples of products from companies not willing to support what is in my opinion the correct 4k24 HDR format of 4:2:2 are the XBox 1S, and the Samsung UBD-K8500. For these to play 10-bit 4k HDR movies you will need an 18 GHz input card.

For 4k24/4k25 movies the Pro will output 4k24/4k25, 12-bit 4:2:2 and so only needs 9 GHz outputs.

Note: For the Samsung K8500, to get HDR 24p movie to output as HDR, you need an 18 GHz card and make sure to enable 24p output. Since it refuses to output 4:2:2, at 60 Hertz the Samsung is outputting 4:4:4 8-bit to an 18 GHz input card, and it turns off HDR (using latest release 1007).

===== 

We are still working out details of the Shaping LUT. In the mean time you will be able to calibrate for a given source Max Display Mastering Luminance, once you have the color calibration software that supports the Radiance Pro. The color measurements you take should continue to be valid once the Shaping LUT is in place. You would use the same measurements to create a new 3D-LUT plus Shaping LUT data set once the Shaping LUT is in the hardware and calibration software.

The calibration software can select HDR/Rec2020 mode for the patterns and control the output HDR info frame data and Rec2020 mode. So the software has enough control to accurately measure TV/projector output, and can even measure with various HDR info frame parameters if desired.

===== 

We expect the 18 GHz output cards to be available in December.


----------



## Nudgiator

jrp said:


> Note: For the Samsung K8500, to get HDR 24p movie to output as HDR, you need an 18 GHz card and* make sure to enable 24p output.* Since it refuses to output 4:2:2, at 60 Hertz the Samsung is outputting 4:4:4 8-bit to an 18 GHz input card, and it turns off HDR (using latest release 1007).


Do you mean the menu option "Movie Frame(24Fs)" of the K8500? So we should set it from AUTO to 24p for HDR?


----------



## mhafner

When is the genlock fix coming? It's the one thing not working for me at the moment.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 092116- Another fix for an issue with rs232 calibration sw communication sometime corrupting test pattern. Fix for previous fw (091616) bug with 4:3 input aspect command. Fix for an issue with 18Ghz inputs that on occasion gave video a pinkish color. Fix for an issue with snow on 18Ghz input card that did not self correct. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 092316- Fix for menu display issue with custom 3440x1440 mode. Fix for not using SDR2020 mode went set up to use it. Fix for incorrectly turning on 3D output mode in certain situations when using 4k sources. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## BakeApples

Which of the Calman bundles would you recommend for a beginner that wants to calibrate a projector? My PJ is a Sony VPL-VW1100 and my pattern generator & 3D LUT hardware is a Radiance Pro 4440.
On the website, there are several different bundles including Control, Enthusiast, Studio Express & Studio Lite. Not really sure which one would suit my needs the best and if all supports the Radiance as pattern generator?

Any recommendations?


----------



## kaotikr1

BakeApples said:


> Which of the Calman bundles would you recommend for a beginner that wants to calibrate a projector? My PJ is a Sony VPL-VW1100 and my pattern generator & 3D LUT hardware is a Radiance Pro 4440.
> On the website, there are several different bundles including Control, Enthusiast, Studio Express & Studio Lite. Not really sure which one would suit my needs the best and if all supports the Radiance as pattern generator?
> 
> Any recommendations?




Enthusiast


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I'd use Lightspace HTL myself. I'm currently using the alpha version to create HDR to SDR mapped LUT's and so far in testing it's looking pretty good.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Gordon Fraser said:


> I'd use Lightspace HTL myself. I'm currently using the alpha version to create HDR to SDR mapped LUT's and so far in testing it's looking pretty good.


Hi Gordon, LightIllusion released today at public the version you talking about; the first integration for Radiance Pro UHD/HDR/WCG workflows with ST2084 Roll Off options for on-set and Home Cinema use.

For download link: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ema-calibration-software-18.html#post47263457


----------



## SJHT

I'm still waiting for Kscape to update the Strato for HDR, but I have an Xbox One S and have one disk, so I thought I would try HDR. What do you have to set in the Lumagen to have the source see compatiblity? My Xbox one s reports I don't have HDR. My projector is a RS600. Thanks. SJ


----------



## sillysally

SJHT said:


> I'm still waiting for Kscape to update the Strato for HDR, but I have an Xbox One S and have one disk, so I thought I would try HDR. What do you have to set in the Lumagen to have the source see compatiblity? My Xbox one s reports I don't have HDR. My projector is a RS600. Thanks. SJ


You may want to try 0924 firmware that was just posted.

ss


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> I'm still waiting for Kscape to update the Strato for HDR, but I have an Xbox One S and have one disk, so I thought I would try HDR. What do you have to set in the Lumagen to have the source see compatiblity? My Xbox one s reports I don't have HDR. My projector is a RS600. Thanks. SJ


I have a non HDR compliant TV. I set my Pro to GLOBAL>VIDEO> HDR=on, REC2020=on 

and i can get HDR rec2020 from UHD discs no problem on my xbox1s


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 092516- Fix for an issue with video input with18Ghz input card that could sometimes be corrected by switching to another input and back. Couple other small fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

Can you send test patterns with HDR from the Pro? SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> Can you send test patterns with HDR from the Pro? SJ


yes


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes


Thanks. How? Do you use the test feature? I think I read something in one of the firmware updates. SJ

Figured it out. Really slick!


----------



## mskreis

I need some advice about upgrading to a Pro. I'm currently using a 2143 in conjunction with a Marantz 7702 Mkii and have 7 devices using 7 of the 8 inputs on the 2143. In the near future I expect to have at least 3, 4K sources and I suspect that number will only increase over time. My current plan is to go with the 4240. This would require me to run all of my inputs through the Marantz, which I'm not doing now. As the Marantz is 4K capable this should be an acceptable option. Upgrade cost is a concern and my ultimate goal will be to calibrate a UHD player. Will this plan accomplish what I'm looking for?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mskreis said:


> I need some advice about upgrading to a Pro. I'm currently using a 2143 in conjunction with a Marantz 7702 Mkii and have 7 devices using 7 of the 8 inputs on the 2143. In the near future I expect to have at least 3, 4K sources and I suspect that number will only increase over time. My current plan is to go with the 4240. This would require me to run all of my inputs through the Marantz, which I'm not doing now. As the Marantz is 4K capable this should be an acceptable option. Upgrade cost is a concern and my ultimate goal will be to calibrate a UHD player. Will this plan accomplish what I'm looking for?


If the Marantz is fully 4k hdmi2.0a compliant then i can't see it a problem with a 4240. If there are problems when the time comes you could send all non 4k sources through the Marantz and the 3 4K sources to the 4240 by adding a second dual input module to make it a 4242....so i think you are good to go.


----------



## ARROW-AV

Gordon Fraser said:


> If the Marantz is fully 4k hdmi2.0a compliant then i can't see it a problem with a 4240...


Hi Gordon, I have a couple of questions regarding the Lumagen Radiance Pro if that's OK... I have not used this product yet and so please excuse my ignorance regarding it and its operation... my knowledge so far is limited to the fact it enables significantly more accurate / better calibration of whatever video display device, and superior scaling, and that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge right now 

I am considering stacking two JVC DLA-RS4500 / Z1 projectors together as part of a 2.40:1 AR CIH array, and hence can't use the internal zoom on the projectors for obvious reasons... As such I see two possibilities, namely: 

OPTION A = Use an anamorphic lens on each projector along with a Lumagen Radiance Pro on each projector; or 

OPTION B = Use a Lumagen Radiance Pro on each projector and have those handle everything, thereby dispensing with the need for the anamorphic lenses.

Using the anamorphic lenses will produce pincushion. Since the Lumagen manipulates the image with respect to scaling etc does it have any other image processing type feature(s) that can be used to help reduce pincushion, further to using the projector's internal settings to over-scan the image onto the frame? Again, please excuse my ignorance. 

And with respect to OPTION B, would the Lumagen Pro be making use of 100% of the panel and thereby 100% of the available luminosity, as per with respect to when anamorphic lenses are used, as opposed to zooming where only circa 75% of the panel / available luminosity is used for 2.40:1 AR images?

And finally, also with respect to OPTION B, if/when the Lumagen Pro is used in this manner and the anamorphic lenses dispensed with it is my understanding that 16:9 AR images will be at a lower image resolution (that's what Ken Whitcomb told me). Please can you kindly explain why there is a loss of resolution wih 16:9 images in this regard please? Is there any way to setup the Lumagen Pro with respect to OPTION B such that there is no such loss of image resolution? I want to have my cake and eat it too 

Many thanks 
..


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Hi Nigel

You may prefer to email me direct.

Yes the Pro can be used either with an anamorphic lens or without.
Personally, these days, i see less necessity for an anamorphic lens. Jim from Lumagen has given his own thoughts on this on this site (possibly even in this thread).
I measured an anamorphic lens at a dealers recently and it actually give reduced light output despite more of the panel being used...and as you say, you then have to deal with the possible geometric and chromatic aberation issues. If you do use an anamoprohic lens then your 4K encoded content will need to be scaled. Any scaling, even the reference quality scaling in a Radiance, will make the image less sharp. So you'd actually get a better sharper image with no lens in place on a 4K display with a scope screen...imho...and i say this as someone who has in the past actually put anamorphic lenses with 4K projectors. I'm just not sure i would now though.

Yes, if no lens is in place then 16:9 content will be downscaled to fill the height of the screen and will be pillarboxed. Obviously there will be a reduction in resolution down from 4K when this happens. Someone can do the exact maths (edit i did it roughly at end) but as i would expect most 16:9 content will not be 4K i can't see that as much of an issue. If you did want to have it all then you'd need to use a projector with Lens memories. I am not a fan of lens memories. Not because i'm the Lumagen distributor but because i find them cumbersome and clunky. I was at a job just two weeks ago in a lovely cinema which had one of those projectors you reviewed.....and the lens memory for 16:9 and 2.35:1 would never go back to the exact same spot every time...and this was a £50000 projector (they are looking in to whether it was perhaps faulty).....For the best image sharpness i would suggest you don't want to be using motors to move zoom and lens shift all the time....you'd want whatever lens/s you use to be static. 

p.s. i just did a quick back of a *** packet bit of maths and 16:9 content inside a 2.35:5 display without an anamorphic lens would be roughly 2900 x 1600 pixels ish....which is quite a lot i think....

re calibration...yes, it gives signiicanly greater colour accuracy on any display device. Also, we are close to getting much better control of HDR tonemapping compared to that in current displays.

cheers


----------



## ARROW-AV

Gordon Fraser said:


> Hi Nigel
> 
> You may prefer to email me direct.
> 
> Yes the Pro can be used either with an anamorphic lens or without.
> Personally, these days, i see less necessity for an anamorphic lens. Jim from Lumagen has given his own thoughts on this on this site (possibly even in this thread).
> I measured an anamorphic lens at a dealers recently and it actually give reduced light output despite more of the panel being used...and as you say, you then have to deal with the possible geometric and chromatic aberation issues. If you do use an anamoprohic lens then your 4K encoded content will need to be scaled. Any scaling, even the reference quality scaling in a Radiance, will make the image less sharp. So you'd actually get a better sharper image with no lens in place on a 4K display with a scope screen...imho...and i say this as someone who has in the past actually put anamorphic lenses with 4K projectors. I'm just not sure i would now though.
> 
> Yes, if no lens is in place then 16:9 content will be downscaled to fill the height of the screen and will be pillarboxed. Obviously there will be a reduction in resolution down from 4K when this happens. Someone can do the exact maths (edit i did it roughly at end) but as i would expect most 16:9 content will not be 4K i can't see that as much of an issue. If you did want to have it all then you'd need to use a projector with Lens memories. I am not a fan of lens memories. Not because i'm the Lumagen distributor but because i find them cumbersome and clunky. I was at a job just two weeks ago in a lovely cinema which had one of those projectors you reviewed.....and the lens memory for 16:9 and 2.35:1 would never go back to the exact same spot every time...and this was a £50000 projector (they are looking in to whether it was perhaps faulty).....For the best image sharpness i would suggest you don't want to be using motors to move zoom and lens shift all the time....you'd want whatever lens/s you use to be static.
> 
> p.s. i just did a quick back of a *** packet bit of maths and 16:9 content inside a 2.35:5 display without an anamorphic lens would be roughly 2900 x 1600 pixels ish....which is quite a lot i think....
> 
> re calibration...yes, it gives signiicanly greater colour accuracy on any display device. Also, we are close to getting much better control of HDR tonemapping compared to that in current displays.
> 
> cheers


Hi Gordon, very useful info. Thank you. 

It definitely seems the best way forward for me is to not use anamorphic lenses, but do everything via Lumagen Radiance Pros... Which I am actually glad about because anamorphic lenses can be a pain in the proverbial for all the reasons you say and more... Suffice to say, I am not a huge fan of solving one issue but creating multiple others that did not previously exist...

I can live with the slight loss of image resolution with respect to 16:9 AR video, given 'roughly 2900 x 1600 pixels ish' is still circa 10% more pixels than pixel-shifting pseudo-4K achieves, and that looks pretty fine to me even on larger size screens IMO... So I personally consider this slight loss of image resolution to be the best compromise out of all the different ways of doing things, all things considered.

Regarding the Lumagen Radiance Pro, you are preaching to the choir so to speak because I am already sold… I have already decided to incorporate Lumagen Radiance Pros into our current AV builds for a variety of reasons, including 17-point cube 3D LUT, with superior colour calibration accuracy, plus better scaling, and native 4K support, etc.. and so a much better control of HDR tone mapping in addition to this would not be unwelcomed 

I’ll get in contact directly with you shortly to discuss details and get the ball rolling.
.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Good man...and can i just say...2 x Z1 is just being greedy! LOL.....:laugh:


----------



## ARROW-AV

Gordon Fraser said:


> Good man...and can i just say...2 x Z1 is just being greedy! LOL.....:laugh:


There is method to the madness... Wait until you see what I am building... 
.


----------



## G-Rex

Is anybody here with a constant height 2:35:1 or 2:40:1 screen using the Radiance Pro non linear stretch mode for 1:85:1 movies (to fill the screen)? I know this isn't the purist method, but it would save big $$ to go this route vs buying a Vista Scope masking screen. I really don't like the unmasked bars to the left and right of a 1:85:1 image.


----------



## sillysally

Using LightSpace and the Pro, the 1DLUT gets insatlled last. Shoulden't the 1DLUT be insatlled first or not at all, before the 3DLUT gets installed.?

Why is there a need for any 1DLUT to be install in the Pro when also installing a 3DLUT from LightSpace?

ss


----------



## FreMo

G-Rex said:


> Is anybody here with a constant height 2:35:1 or 2:40:1 screen using the Radiance Pro non linear stretch mode for 1:85:1 movies (to fill the screen)? I know this isn't the purist method, but it would save big $$ to go this route vs buying a Vista Scope masking screen. I really don't like the unmasked bars to the left and right of a 1:85:1 image.


I have a 2.40:1 format screen and a 2143 radiance and I use the nls option to fully display the 1.85 materials on the screen. I nevertheless changed the crop and zooming default options to reach my tastes.


----------



## G-Rex

FreMo said:


> I have a 2.40:1 format screen and a 2143 radiance and I use the nls option to fully display the 1.85 materials on the screen. I nevertheless changed the crop and zooming default options to reach my tastes.


Do you ever prefer unstretched 1:85:1 with left/right black bars over NLS for some content or do you just leave it on NLS?


----------



## FreMo

G-Rex said:


> Do you ever prefer unstretched 1:85:1 with left/right black bars over NLS for some content or do you just leave it on NLS?


As far as I m concerned the 1.85:1 format is good for tv, but projection on a 2.40:1 screen is another world. Nevertheless, some 1.85 movies work better than others with the NLS.


----------



## G-Rex

Thanks for your thoughts. Due to others not chiming in, (including on another thread I started) I can only assume that NLS is rarely used.


----------



## netroamer

G-Rex said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. Due others not chiming in, (including on another thread I started) I can only assume that NLR is rarely used.


I have tried NLS to fill the 12.5' 2.40 screen and I constantly find myself noticing the added girth of the people. It is just too gimmicky for my taste. I can live with the black side bars.


----------



## Mark_H

What netroamer said.


----------



## G-Rex

Thanks for the additional feedback. Looks like masking is the way to go despite the expense. I will still set an option for NLS to dabble with it.


----------



## Wookii

G-Rex said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. Due to others not chiming in, (including on another thread I started) I can only assume that NLS is rarely used.


+2 to what the other guys have said - I find NLS just too distorted, like a fish-eye lens. 

However I share your thoughts that a 16:9 image looks too under whelming on a 2.35:1 screen. It annoys me every time I put Pacific Rim or Jurassic Park, or other 16:9 large scale films on. I get around it by giving a couple of clicks of zoom on the Radiance to enlarge the image, though of course you lose a proportion of the image at the top and bottom which is not ideal either.

The long term solution (for me at least) is to run a constant image area set-up so that the 16:9 image looks a similar scale to the 2.35 image.


----------



## Wookii

For those of us that use Calman, I see on the Spectracal forum that support for calibrating HDR 3DLUT's in the Radiance Pro will appear in the next Calman Beta (CalMAN 2016.2 beta), apparently scheduled for release next week.


----------



## LJG

I've just added a Roku 4K Ultimate to my chain. Chain is Radiance Pro to Sony 5000ES. When I set the Roku to 4K HDR, the Netflix app only sends out 1080P60 from 4K UHD content. The Amazon app sends out 4K HDR @ 24 fine. I am wondering if this could be the limits of the Pro Radiance Input cards limit of 10gbps? I think Netlix maybe sending out 4K 60P signal?

My second question relates to switching speeds. I've had some time with the unit and the Radiance seems to take a few seconds when switching to and from 720P to 1080I, I have tried setting output fixed or Auto1 on Pro but am unable to speed up this switching. Any other suggestions?


----------



## thrang

netroamer said:


> I have tried NLS to fill the 12.5' 2.40 screen and I constantly find myself noticing the added girth of the people. It is just too gimmicky for my taste. I can live with the black side bars.


I'm constantly finding myself noticing my added girth, but I don't need NLS for that...


----------



## Bill DePalma

LJG said:


> I've just added a Roku 4K Ultimate to my chain. Chain is Radiance Pro to Sony 5000ES. When I set the Roku to 4K HDR, the Netflix app only sends out 1080P60 from 4K UHD content. The Amazon app sends out 4K HDR @ 24 fine. I am wondering if this could be the limits of the Pro Radiance Input cards limit of 10gbps? I think Netlix maybe sending out 4K 60P signal?
> 
> My second question relates to switching speeds. I've had some time with the unit and the Radiance seems to take a few seconds when switching to and from 720P to 1080I, I have tried setting output fixed or Auto1 on Pro but am unable to speed up this switching. Any other suggestions?


I also have the "Ultimate", my Radiance has the 18 gbps card and I am unable to get HDR content from Netflix. 4K yes, but not HDR. I am able to get 1 program on Amazon with HDR, Bosch but that comes with severe banding. THe Roku is really not cutting it.


----------



## Surfdrifter

Wookii said:


> +2 to what the other guys have said - I find NLS just too distorted, like a fish-eye lens.
> 
> However I share your thoughts that a 16:9 image looks too under whelming on a 2.35:1 screen. It annoys me every time I put Pacific Rim or Jurassic Park, or other 16:9 large scale films on. I get around it by giving a couple of clicks of zoom on the Radiance to enlarge the image, though of course you lose a proportion of the image at the top and bottom which is not ideal either.
> 
> The long term solution (for me at least) is to run a constant image area set-up so that the 16:9 image looks a similar scale to the 2.35 image.


Well, what I do is this and believe me it works better than simply zooming "a couple of clicks" to enlarge the image. Instead of zooming and crop evenly from the top and bottom, you should aim to crop more from the bottom, rather than the top. I would dare to suggest to try to only crop the bottom and leave the top intact, but I would probably go as a generic template with a ratio of cropping 1/3 from the top and 2/3 from the bottom. But 0% top and 100% bottom works good too, as also 1/4 top, 3/4 bottom. You should try to see what bothers you more to lose. I personally hate to crop foreheads!

Generally speaking, when someone shoots a film with multiple aspect ratio theaters around the globe in mind (for example Transformers: Age of extintion or Interstellar) it almost always safe to assume that you can safely crop to 2:35 evenly from top and bottom.

If the movie is shot with only 1:85 frame in mind and contains many closeups, I can guarantee that it's waaaay better to crop almost everything from the bottom and leave the top intact. Cropping the forehead on a closeup, is very annoying.

Of course you can mix and match this tip (1/3 from top 2/3 from bottom) with NLS and lose less information with a little bit of distortion. Everyone has it's taste, but you should try to see what's best for you.


----------



## turls

I've had this thing for almost a year and a half and have lost track of what is beta and what is not and what features talked about long ago are going to get added and what isn't. Watching Black Mirror on Netflix reminds me how nice auto-aspect detection that could potentially trigger zoom and masking changes. There are 3 or 4 different aspect ratios being used. Is auto-aspect still a thing?


----------



## RapalloAV

Is there anyone here using madvr with their Radiance Pro?


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 101416- Added to NLS setup screen to allow for 100% linear stretch--NLS setup is under Input: In Configs: RES: CFG: Size: ASPECT: NLStretch. Center Size controls linear portion and has range from 15-75% or 100%. Improved color bandwidth for RGB sources. Several improvements for switching inputs with new 18Ghz input cards. Added manual override for 422, 444 or RGB input type in menu under Input:Options:HDMI Setup:Type . Added global 709 CMS Mode in menu under Global: VIdeo with settings of Source or Linear. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## alex_t

RapalloAV said:


> Is there anyone here using madvr with their Radiance Pro?


Hello.

I don't have the PRO (yet) but I have used madVR with my 2143 for years, what would you like to know ?


----------



## RapalloAV

alex_t said:


> Hello.
> 
> I don't have the PRO (yet) but I have used madVR with my 2143 for years, what would you like to know ?


If one wants to use madvr for the scaling, can you set the Pro to just pass through?
e.g. madvr 1080p > 4K > Lumagen Pro pass through.


----------



## Wookii

RapalloAV said:


> If one wants to use madvr for the scaling, can you set the Pro to just pass through?
> e.g. madvr 1080p > 4K > Lumagen Pro pass through.


I don't see why not, it should work just like any other 4K/UHD source, providing you're using standard resolutions and timings.


----------



## netroamer

*Roku Ultra*

Anyone tried this new 4k HDR Roku with a Pro with 18ghz input cards? So far I cannot get any HDR. The Pro shows the input is SDR709. When I try to play a Amazon HDR stream, like Bosch, the input shuts down and I need to go to a different 1080p input to get back an signal. It also happens on the Samsung 8500 when trying to play the same HDR content.


----------



## RapalloAV

Wookii said:


> I don't see why not, it should work just like any other 4K/UHD source, providing you're using standard resolutions and timings.



Yes but how do you set the Pro to pass through video, I don't see such a setting?


----------



## Wookii

RapalloAV said:


> Yes but how do you set the Pro to pass through video, I don't see such a setting?


It doesn't work like that with a Lumagen processor - you simply need to set the output setting the same as the video being received. So if you are outputting 2160p/24 @ 4:2:2 from the PC, for example, and don't want the Radiance to do any processing, just set it to output 2160p/24 @ 4:2:2 also.


----------



## RapalloAV

Wookii said:


> It doesn't work like that with a Lumagen processor - you simply need to set the output setting the same as the video being received. So if you are outputting 2160p/24 @ 4:2:2 from the PC, for example, and don't want the Radiance to do any processing, just set it to output 2160p/24 @ 4:2:2 also.


Ok I understand, thank you for that.
I've tried this a number of times but I keep getting intermittent black screen video drop outs on my JVC X9000. Plus the fan warning comes on over 100 deg.


As I play everything at 60Hz could this be the problem with the drop outs and the Pro warning fan message (too hot)?


----------



## Wookii

RapalloAV said:


> Ok I understand, thank you for that.
> I've tried this a number of times but I keep getting intermittent black screen video drop outs on my JVC X9000. Plus the fan warning comes on over 100 deg.
> 
> 
> As I play everything at 60Hz could this be the problem with the drop outs and the Pro warning fan message (too hot)?


The Pro doesn't currently have full 18Gbps output ports as yet, so yes, you may be hitting the hard limits of its current output capabilities.

Are you even outputting 1080p/24 material at 60Hz then?


----------



## RapalloAV

Wookii said:


> The Pro doesn't currently have full 18Gbps output ports as yet, so yes, you may be hitting the hard limits of its current output capabilities.
> 
> Are you even outputting 1080p/24 material at 60Hz then?


Yes I am currently running 25/30/60/24 etc all at 60Hz, there is a reason, let me explain...
As the X9000 and all other projectors are slow to sync, they are a problem for the film club I run.
I make up a playlist in JRiver, shorts, trailers, music clips which can be anything ranging from 25,30,50, before the start of a BD feature.
If I allow the projector to sync on auto, we can miss up to 15secs or more from the start of each short film.
The guys on the HTPC thread told me to set the video card at 1080p 60Hz and use Smooth Motion from madvr.
Doing this every short, trailer, clip, feature, changes from one to the next instantly!


----------



## Wookii

RapalloAV said:


> Yes I am currently running 25/30/60/24 etc all at 60Hz, there is a reason, let me explain...
> As the X9000 and all other projectors are slow to sync, they are a problem for the film club I run.
> I make up a playlist in JRiver, shorts, trailers, music clips which can be anything ranging from 25,30,50, before the start of a BD feature.
> If I allow the projector to sync on auto, we can miss up to 15secs or more from the start of each short film.
> The guys on the HTPC thread told me to set the video card at 1080p 60Hz and use Smooth Motion from madvr.
> Doing this every short, trailer, clip, feature, changes from one to the next instantly!


Ah I see - yes I have the X9000 too and the sync times are appalling!

I bought this UHD disc a few weeks back:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B01G7G2W1A/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

Literally every clip on the disc is a different frame rate from the previous one, the sync times make it almost unwatchable!


----------



## RapalloAV

Wookii said:


> Ah I see - yes I have the X9000 too and the sync times are appalling!
> 
> I bought this UHD disc a few weeks back:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B01G7G2W1A/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Literally every clip on the disc is a different frame rate from the previous one, the sync times make it almost unwatchable!



Yes this is a major problem with all the JVC projectors, all the rest are only a little faster at syncing!
I had a guy contact me this week complaining about the very same thing as hes going nuts watching the logos, warnings, etc etc at the start of BDs, image on, image off, wait, black flick flick....OMG its a pain in the ass watching the different frame rates sync.... 


I bought up the subject on the forum when I first bought the X9000, it was impossible to run a playlist of shorts/trailers/feature for me.
I had the same problem on my Sony VW1100, but it was a bit faster than the JVCs. Its impossible to play a smooth show with mixed content on home projectors with their original frame rates...


Hence my having everything set to 60Hz...
Its not the perfect solution and I know that, but it certainly looks 100% better than the screen flicking all over the place, black/grey on and off and up to 20secs at times to sync....horrible!


Yes the disc you mention is almost impossible to watch calmly, you almost want to give up with all that flicking all over the place....


Its such a shame, I just wish projector manufactures cared enough to make instant sync times....
I wonder if its possible with HDMI?


Gee I wish Lumagen could fix this, if they could it would be a winner!


----------



## sillysally

RapalloAV said:


> Yes this is a major problem with all the JVC projectors, all the rest are only a little faster at syncing!
> I had a guy contact me this week complaining about the very same thing as hes going nuts watching the logos, warnings, etc etc at the start of BDs, image on, image off, wait, black flick flick....OMG its a pain in the ass watching the different frame rates sync....


Is this just a issue when using the 18 gig HDMI card, or does that happen if you use the 9 gig HDMI card also??

ss

btw, I don't have any issues with my Pro and over heating when inputing [email protected]/2:2:2, outputing the same except for 2:2:0.


----------



## RapalloAV

sillysally said:


> Is this just a issue when using the 18 gig HDMI card, or does that happen if you use the 9 gig HDMI card also??
> 
> ss


This has nothing to do with the Pro, its related to the nature how projs sync....slow!


----------



## sillysally

RapalloAV said:


> This has nothing to do with the Pro, its related to the nature how projs sync....slow!


Ok, but do you have as bad a issue when using the 9 gig HDMI input card in the Pro??

ss


----------



## RapalloAV

sillysally said:


> Ok, but do you have as bad a issue when using the 9 gig HDMI input card in the Pro??
> 
> ss


I have no idea, I only have the card that was in it when I bought it.
I don't think any card in the Pro can improve slow sync issues from a projector.
I spoke with the HD Fury people and was told there is nothing on the market that can improve a slow sync from a display, projector or otherwise...


----------



## SJHT

I have 18ghz input cards and still the sync is horrible on the JVC. SJ


----------



## RapalloAV

SJHT said:


> I have 18ghz input cards and still the sync is horrible on the JVC. SJ


Bingo, join the club!


----------



## jamesmil

I'm a bit confused. You can configure the RadiancePro to always output the same signal to your display to avoid any resyncs, regardless of input source. The ideal setup should be keep your input sources as "native" (or in the case of HTPC "Allow framerate change") and then set your output configurations in the RadiancePro to always be the ideal output for your projector (say 4k60). The RadiancePro is excellent at scaling to the target output resolution and telecine to the target refresh rate. Unless you are sending HDR or 4:4:4 12-bit color down to your display, you should not have an issue exceeding the capability of the existing 9Ghz output card. 

In this configuration, your display device should never have to resync, but you should still get the full benefit of the RadiancePro for your content.


----------



## thrang

SJHT said:


> I have 18ghz input cards and still the sync is horrible on the JVC. SJ


I think thats just the nature of the cards being used...


----------



## ARROW-AV

jamesmil said:


> I'm a bit confused. You can configure the RadiancePro to always output the same signal to your display to avoid any resyncs, regardless of input source. The ideal setup should be keep your input sources as "native" (or in the case of HTPC "Allow framerate change") and then set your output configurations in the RadiancePro to always be the ideal output for your projector (say 4k60). The RadiancePro is excellent at scaling to the target output resolution and telecine to the target refresh rate. Unless you are sending HDR or 4:4:4 12-bit color down to your display, you should not have an issue exceeding the capability of the existing 9Ghz output card. In this configuration, your display device should never have to resync, but you should still get the full benefit of the RadiancePro for your content.


I have absolutely zero experience using the Radiance Pro but am planning to do so and what you say is how I thought it worked but all the talk of these syncing issues and in particular making sequences of multiple short video clips unwatchable rang serious alarm bells, because that's precisely what I will be doing!  So, could what you are saying be employed such that multiple short video clips of differing frame rates can all be played in sequence without any such aforementioned syncing issues, with the Radiance Pro converting them all to and outputing them all as 4K60? Many thanks.
.


----------



## jjcook

HDMI source resolution/rate change causes a re-sync across the whole HDMI chain to the display (at least for HDCP enabled output), the Lumagen cannot avoid this per HDMI/HDCP spec AFAIK.


----------



## SJHT

Anyone here with a Strato/Lumagen Pro/JVC RS600 combo? I'm trying to figure out the options for displaying UHD/HDR content which has just been made available for the Strato. For the default, I'm turning HDR/REC2020 on in the Lumagen Pro (in Global Options). On the JVC, I've setup a User Memory (with REC2020, Gamma D, High Lamp, etc.). When selecting a movie (after JVC sync awhile ), the HDR goes to Y on the JVC Info screen, select my HDR user Memory I setup and all looks really good. A little darker than I'm used to vs. non HDR content, but still looks really good. Color depth is excellent. Even the BLUE screens from the Lumagen Pro look richer in color. However, I know some people are sending the HDR signal from the source and remapping HDR BT.2020 to SDR BT.2020 color space. Is this possible with my combo or what other options might I try? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Nigel_ Arrow AV, The long sync time on refresh rate change is a JVC Issue. The only real problem with JVC x series projectors is their terrible huge long sync times on res change. Nothing to do with Lumagen. As has been said though, any resolution or refresh rate change on source will require a resync of entire change...but frame rate converting everything to 60Hz will speed things up at the output side and for MOST content you'd want to watch that is ok for a short minute long clip...you wouldn't really want to watch an entire 50Hz tv series or film at 60Hz...

SJHT Create another memory and put an unused CMS bank in it for HDR. Set the CMS>COLOURSPACE to SDR2020 or even SDR709 with your display and you will get HDR/REC2020 in to the scaler and it will then not send out the HDR flag and this will stop the JVC from automatically going in to GammaD high lamp mode. You can then create a LUT to do the HDR mapping. If you do not create a LUT the image will look terrible though.


----------



## ARROW-AV

Gordon Fraser said:


> Nigel_ Arrow AV, The long sync time on refresh rate change is a JVC Issue. The only real problem with JVC x series projectors is their terrible huge long sync times on res change. Nothing to do with Lumagen. As has been said though, any resolution or refresh rate change on source will require a resync of entire change...but frame rate converting everything to 60Hz will speed things up at the output side and for MOST content you'd want to watch that is ok for a short minute long clip...you wouldn't really want to watch an entire 50Hz tv series or film at 60Hz...
> 
> SJHT Create another memory and put an unused CMS bank in it for HDR. Set the CMS>COLOURSPACE to SDR2020 or even SDR709 with your display and you will get HDR/REC2020 in to the scaler and it will then not send out the HDR flag and this will stop the JVC from automatically going in to GammaD high lamp mode. You can then create a LUT to do the HDR mapping. If you do not create a LUT the image will look terrible though.


OK thanks Gordon, good to know there's potential work-around via the Lumagen but worst case scenario I can custom pro-video-edit any such sequences of short video clips to suit such that everything fed to the Lumagen is the same spec... I always like to have a 'Plan B'  Speak soon 
.


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> SJHT Create another memory and put an unused CMS bank in it for HDR. Set the CMS>COLOURSPACE to SDR2020 or even SDR709 with your display and you will get HDR/REC2020 in to the scaler and it will then not send out the HDR flag and this will stop the JVC from automatically going in to GammaD high lamp mode. You can then create a LUT to do the HDR mapping. If you do not create a LUT the image will look terrible though.


I assume you are only talking about what to do in the Lumagen and not the JVC? I've created LUTs using Calman. Is this the same to do the remapping? Thanks for your help. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT: Yes my comments are what to set the Lumagen to in order to get HDR REC2020 in to it but not to then output HDR infoframe. HDR to SDR is basically what your GammaD setting in the JVC is already doing. It's just JVC's attempt to do the same thing you could do in the Lumagen. I do not know whether Calman have the capability in their software to do HDR LUT's with Lumagens yet.

If the Strato has the capability you could try setting global video in Lumagen to REC2020 YES and HDR to NO. and then see if the Lumagen reports REC2020 colour as coming in from the Strato without HDR. If it does then follow my procedure above then create a LUT with the target of SDR/REC2020


----------



## LJG

netroamer said:


> Anyone tried this new 4k HDR Roku with a Pro with 18ghz input cards? So far I cannot get any HDR. The Pro shows the input is SDR709. When I try to play a Amazon HDR stream, like Bosch, the input shuts down and I need to go to a different 1080p input to get back an signal. It also happens on the Samsung 8500 when trying to play the same HDR content.


The Roku Ultra, and for that matter the Roku 4 and the Radiance Pro do not play nicely together. When I sync Amazon 4K HDR the Pro shows 4K, HDR, Rec 2020 on the input side but outputs 4K, HDR, 709 on the output side, I have tried forcing REC2020 output and sometimes I can get it other times the Pro will only output 709. I have removed the Roku Ultra from the Radiance chain and connected direct to Projector, this has cleared up the issue. I do not have the 18ghz card upgrade


----------



## netroamer

LJG said:


> The Roku Ultra, and for that matter the Roku 4 and the Radiance Pro do not play nicely together. When I sync Amazon 4K HDR the Pro shows 4K, HDR, Rec 2020 on the input side but outputs 4K, HDR, 709 on the output side, I have tried forcing REC2020 output and sometimes I can get it other times the Pro will only output 709. I have removed the Roku Ultra from the Radiance chain and connected direct to Projector, this has cleared up the issue. I do not have the 18ghz card upgrade


With the Pro, I can do the scaling that I need for the multiple AR's that the various Roku apps produce. I do have two 18ghz cards installed.

Lumagen has now replicated, in house, the issues with the Ultra and perhaps even the Roku 4 and are working on a fix. BTW, the only issue I have had with the Roku 4 is the 1080p output at power on that requires a reset of the Roku resolution to fix. The Ultra does not have this issue.


----------



## SJHT

When will the 18 GHz output cards be available? SJ


----------



## GerryWaz

SJHT said:


> When will the 18 GHz output cards be available? SJ


Supposed to be in December. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-30.html#post47086897


----------



## LJG

Netflix is outputting 4K 60P in the Roku Ultra, could part of the issues be the limited bandwidth of the 10.2 GHZ cards?


----------



## LJG

LJG said:


> Netflix is outputting 4K 60P in the Roku Ultra, could part of the issues be the limited bandwidth of the 10.2 GHZ cards?


OK let me ask this another way. With the Roku Ultra as a source, and Netflix outputting 4K60 HDR, is the 18ghz card needed? I assume Lumagen has a Roku Ultra in the lab


----------



## rfpublic

Lumagen has a Roku Ultra and is posting a new software update that should improve the functionality with this product. Roku needs to post new firmware to fix the issue of them sometimes displaying a HDCP warning screen when you change video sources.

At this point the Roku Ultra outputs a high bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode that requires a 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro. Roku could release a firmware update for their product so that it could output a lower bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode, that wouldn't require the 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro. 

Randy Freeman


----------



## LJG

rfpublic said:


> Lumagen has a Roku Ultra and is posting a new software update that should improve the functionality with this product. Roku needs to post new firmware to fix the issue of them sometimes displaying a HDCP warning screen when you change video sources.
> 
> At this point the Roku Ultra outputs a high bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode that requires a 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro. Roku could release a firmware update for their product so that it could output a lower bandwidth 4k60 HDR mode, that wouldn't require the 18GHz input card on the RadiancePro.
> 
> Randy Freeman


Thank you Randy.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 102116- Fix for input mode issue that could result in no video output. Improvements for 18ghz input card operation and works well with Roku Ultra now (although Ultra is in need of a fix for it's incorrect hdcp nag screen and buffering issues seen sometimes with UHD video). Added Rate Match command in menu under Output: Styles: StyleX: HDMI Format: Rate Match to allow disabling rate matching for displays that have excessive resync times and would rather have slight rate mismatch. Couple small menu improvements and fixes. 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

Wookii said:


> For those of us that use Calman, I see on the Spectracal forum that support for calibrating HDR 3DLUT's in the Radiance Pro will appear in the next Calman Beta (CalMAN 2016.2 beta), apparently scheduled for release next week.


Anyone get this? I upgraded my C6 meter to a C6/HDR unit. SJ


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

SJHT said:


> Anyone get this? I upgraded my C6 meter to a C6/HDR unit. SJ


Hi, some news posted @ SpectraCAL's Forum about this.


----------



## Wookii

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hi, some news posted @ SpectraCAL's Forum about this.


Yep, not good news either, quite a surprising response from them!



> The HDR tone mapping will be done by Lumagen.


Is this correct, or is Lumagen expecting this to be done in via the calibration software/3D LUT? If it is being done by the Radiance Pro, how will it know the output parameters of the display?



> 3D LUTs for HDR is not something we recommend at this time. You are going to fight the display and its gamut mapping.


I was under the impression this was already working in Lightspace? Can anyone confirm?


----------



## OMARDRIS

Wookii said:


> I was under the impression this was already working in Lightspace? Can anyone confirm?



Hi,
Yes, I can do that. I've been seeing HDR/REC2020 movies (Ultra-Blu-rays) on my VW1100ES-projector (Non-HDR/BT2020) for several weeks. The Radiance Pro has a 3-D-LUT from LightSpace, which handles the Colormapping as well as the implementation of the ST2084 EOFT. This is not about the pure conversion of HDR/REC2020 to SDR/709, which can be any HDR -player, but the best possible transfer of the HDR/REC2020 signal to the capabilities of the VW1100ES.
There is only a very little problem with the lower grades (0.1 - 0.005 Nits), but this can also be due to the Samsung K8500 Player. Here I have to adjust slightly manually with the Gamma-EQ.

Peter


----------



## LJG

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> Yes, I can do that. I've been seeing HDR/REC2020 movies (Ultra-Blu-rays) on my VW1100ES-projector (Non-HDR/BT2020) for several weeks. The Radiance Pro has a 3-D-LUT from LightSpace, which handles the Colormapping as well as the implementation of the ST2084 EOFT. This is not about the pure conversion of HDR/REC2020 to SDR/709, which can be any HDR -player, but the best possible transfer of the HDR/REC2020 signal to the capabilities of the VW1100ES.
> There is only a very little problem with the lower grades (0.1 - 0.005 Nits), but this can also be due to the Samsung K8500 Player. Here I have to adjust slightly manually with the Gamma-EQ.
> 
> Peter


How does one implement this in the Radiance, I do not see any options for HDR conversion, other than global video HDR on/off.


----------



## OMARDRIS

LJG said:


> How does one implement this in the Radiance, I do not see any options for HDR conversion, other than global video HDR on/off.



Hi,
The color mapping and the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF to the abilities of the display are only possible thanks to the good cooperation between LightSpace and the Radiance Pro. At the moment this is not possible with Calman 5.

LightSpace creates a 3-D-LUT based on the profiling of the display and calculates the color transformation from the REC2020-container (Ultra-Blu-ray) to the Colorspace of the Display. Therefore, for the profiling of the display, one does not take the color space REC709, but rather one that approximates the color space P3(DCI). Of course, later the display must run in exactly the mode with which was profiled. It does not even notice that the input signal actually corresponds to the HDR/REC2020 standard because it has been adapted to its capabilities.

The 3D-LUT from LightSpace allows the Radiance Pro to deliver the data from the REC2020-Container to the Non-HDR/REC2020-Display so that the display can interpret it correctly. Therefore the Radiance provides special CMS memories for HDR/REC2020-LUTs. However, I believe it is advantageous if the display can basically process 12-bit signals.

In addition LightSpace calculates a 1-D-LUT for the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF. This adaptation causes the Radiance Pro, to change the gamma curve of the display, e.g. 2.2 to the ST2084-EOTF. When creating the LUT in LightSpace, you can set the limits for clipping and a soft clipping for the highlights of the HDR/REC2020 signal. Here it can be good that you have to calculate several LUTs to find a good compromise for the display and the setup.

The whole thing may sound very complicated, but it is really easy, because LightSpace and Radiance Pro do the actual hard work.

Basically, the LUT of LightSpace and the Radiance Pro do nothing but the internal HDR/REC2020 processes of a HDR/REC2020-capable display.
If you switch off this capability on an HDR/REC2020 capable device, you can also transfer the entire transformation process to the Radiance Pro. Depending on the quality of the internal processes of the display, it may be that the Radiance Pro does a lot better.

I hope this was understandable.
Peter


----------



## Mark_H

And the big question is, how does this faux-HDR look? We're all, I think, hoping this is the best solution for projectors, at least for now.


----------



## LJG

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> The color mapping and the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF to the abilities of the display are only possible thanks to the good cooperation between LightSpace and the Radiance Pro. At the moment this is not possible with Calman 5.
> 
> LightSpace creates a 3-D-LUT based on the profiling of the display and calculates the color transformation from the REC2020-container (Ultra-Blu-ray) to the Colorspace of the Display. Therefore, for the profiling of the display, one does not take the color space REC709, but rather one that approximates the color space P3(DCI). Of course, later the display must run in exactly the mode with which was profiled. It does not even notice that the input signal actually corresponds to the HDR/REC2020 standard because it has been adapted to its capabilities.
> 
> The 3D-LUT from LightSpace allows the Radiance Pro to deliver the data from the REC2020-Container to the Non-HDR/REC2020-Display so that the display can interpret it correctly. Therefore the Radiance provides special CMS memories for HDR/REC2020-LUTs. However, I believe it is advantageous if the display can basically process 12-bit signals.
> 
> In addition LightSpace calculates a 1-D-LUT for the adaptation of the ST2084 EOTF. This adaptation causes the Radiance Pro, to change the gamma curve of the display, e.g. 2.2 to the ST2084-EOTF. When creating the LUT in LightSpace, you can set the limits for clipping and a soft clipping for the highlights of the HDR/REC2020 signal. Here it can be good that you have to calculate several LUTs to find a good compromise for the display and the setup.
> 
> The whole thing may sound very complicated, but it is really easy, because LightSpace and Radiance Pro do the actual hard work.
> 
> Basically, the LUT of LightSpace and the Radiance Pro do nothing but the internal HDR/REC2020 processes of a HDR/REC2020-capable display.
> If you switch off this capability on an HDR/REC2020 capable device, you can also transfer the entire transformation process to the Radiance Pro. Depending on the quality of the internal processes of the display, it may be that the Radiance Pro does a lot better.
> 
> I hope this was understandable.
> Peter


Hi Peter:

Very interesting. I would like to try this with my HDR projector, Sony 5000ES, so in order to enable this in the Radiance, and have the Radiance do the conversion, all I have to do is turn off HDR in my projector. I am unclear on how to set this up and enable the conversion?


----------



## OMARDRIS

Mark_H said:


> And the big question is, how does this faux-HDR look? We're all, I think, hoping this is the best solution for projectors, at least for now.


Hi,
The quality of the result for a projector depends strongly on its characteristics.
How well can he reach the color space P3 (DCI)?
How much light does he have in the production set-up at IRE 100 (white)?
Of the maximum light, he can sacrifice something for the highlights at HDR.

The VW1000ES and the VW1100ES have a mechanical filter to reach the color space P3 (DCI). But unfortunately this filter costs a lot of light. In my case about 35%. Therefore, I can not use it.

I use the color space 3 of the VW1100ES with High-Lamp and D65, Gamma 2.2. All image enhancers are off. Color space 3 is slightly larger than REC709.
This brings me at 3m (10 feet) image width at IRE 100 to about 100 Nits. Less than 100 Nits at IRE 100 should not be in my opinion. This makes it clear that larger image widths than 3m are hardly possible with the VW1100ES.

I have the image clipped at 800 to 1000 Nits with a soft clipping at 90% of the max. light to 1500 Nits. But this is my personal attitude. Others prefer a clipping limit of 2.5 to 3 times the luma value at IRE 100.

Without doubt, this is a compromise for normal projectors, but it's still fun to see a well-made ultra-Blu-ray (for example, "Lucy" or "Life of Pi")
I am surprised how natural the image impression is, though or perhaps just because the image is slightly darker on the average.


The photo I made free with the mobile phone.













Peter


----------



## OMARDRIS

LJG said:


> Very interesting. I would like to try this with my HDR projector, Sony 5000ES, so in order to enable this in the Radiance, and have the Radiance do the conversion, all I have to do is turn off HDR in my projector. I am unclear on how to set this up and enable the conversion?



Hi,
The Sony VW5000ES is such a good projector that I would advise you to contact you with Gordon Fraser. I know he has done exactly what I've described.

Peter


----------



## loggeo

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> The quality of the result for a projector depends strongly on its characteristics.
> How well can he reach the color space P3 (DCI)?
> How much light does he have in the production set-up at IRE 100 (white)?
> Of the maximum light, he can sacrifice something for the highlights at HDR.
> 
> The VW1000ES and the VW1100ES have a mechanical filter to reach the color space P3 (DCI). But unfortunately this filter costs a lot of light. In my case about 35%. Therefore, I can not use it.
> 
> I use the color space 3 of the VW1100ES with High-Lamp and D65, Gamma 2.2. All image enhancers are off. Color space 3 is slightly larger than REC709.
> This brings me at 3m (10 feet) image width at IRE 100 to about 100 Nits. Less than 100 Nits at IRE 100 should not be in my opinion. This makes it clear that larger image widths than 3m are hardly possible with the VW1100ES.
> 
> I have the image clipped at 800 to 1000 Nits with a soft clipping at 90% of the max. light to 1500 Nits. But this is my personal attitude. Others prefer a clipping limit of 2.5 to 3 times the luma value at IRE 100.
> 
> Without doubt, this is a compromise for normal projectors, but it's still fun to see a well-made ultra-Blu-ray (for example, "Lucy" or "Life of Pi")
> I am surprised how natural the image impression is, though or perhaps just because the image is slightly darker on the average.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter


Hi can you tell us the exact procedure you followed step by step?


----------



## LJG

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> The Sony VW5000ES is such a good projector that I would advise you to contact you with Gordon Fraser. I know he has done exactly what I've described.
> 
> Peter


Gordon? Can you assist? This would be an extremely beneficial feature to the many 5000ES owners out there....


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Sorry i haven't sene this thread. I have been out for the last two weeks doing exactly this sort of thing for a ton of clients in UK with Sony, JVC and Epson projectors. 

I am late to go out to do yet another (Sony 320 and Pro 4242) today so short answer. 

Yes, right now you can profile your display and create a LUT to view HDR material on HDR or non HDR enabled displays with a Radiance. In my tests i've found the best results are to set the GLOBAL VIDEO HDR rec2020 both to ON. This makes sources know they can output those signal types even if the display cannot show them. Then assign the CMS bank you want to use to the REC2020/HDR section of Pro. Then change COLOURSPACE of CMS bank to SDR709. This stops Radiance from outputting HDR REC2020 info frame to display so you wont have your HDR enabled display bouncing in to it's crappy HDR mode when you don't want it to. Then find the widest gamut, brightest light output mode with most linearity available. Then profile away. I then usually make a three different LUTs with varying roll off points and roll off amounts to find the best viewable option on the display system i am working on.


----------



## Mark_H

Gordon, in your opinion, how does this faux-HDR look on projectors?


----------



## Wookii

Gordon Fraser said:


> Sorry i haven't sene this thread. I have been out for the last two weeks doing exactly this sort of thing for a ton of clients in UK with Sony, JVC and Epson projectors.
> 
> I am late to go out to do yet another (Sony 320 and Pro 4242) today so short answer.
> 
> Yes, right now you can profile your display and create a LUT to view HDR material on HDR or non HDR enabled displays with a Radiance. In my tests i've found the best results are to set the GLOBAL VIDEO HDR rec2020 both to ON. This makes sources know they can output those signal types even if the display cannot show them. Then assign the CMS bank you want to use to the REC2020/HDR section of Pro. Then change COLOURSPACE of CMS bank to SDR709. This stops Radiance from outputting HDR REC2020 info frame to display so you wont have your HDR enabled display bouncing in to it's crappy HDR mode when you don't want it to. Then find the widest gamut, brightest light output mode with most linearity available. Then profile away. I then usually make a three different LUTs with varying roll off points and roll off amounts to find the best viewable option on the display system i am working on.


That's great Gordon - that will also allow the full use of the DI on the current line of JVC projectors also, which is currently disabled with a HDR input signal. Hopefully that will help address one of the major issues with using HDR on a PJ, which is the raised black floor on dark scenes as a result of running at max (or close to max) light output.

I guess I need to see if i can get my head around using Lightspace, given that Spectracal don't seem to be making much progress in this area with the Radiance Pro.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mark,

It does depend on the system. The LS10000 I did yesterday was on a small screen and i was measuring 186nits full field on it. The client also had a 4K Panasonic 900 series LCD TV and i thought the HDR we got on the proejctor was much better than on the TV... as the black level was so raised when you whack up the backlight.....I thought yesterdays was great. the Sony320 i am working on now is getting 60 nits....it's going to be interesting...


----------



## LJG

Gordon Fraser said:


> Sorry i haven't sene this thread. I have been out for the last two weeks doing exactly this sort of thing for a ton of clients in UK with Sony, JVC and Epson projectors.
> 
> I am late to go out to do yet another (Sony 320 and Pro 4242) today so short answer.
> 
> Yes, right now you can profile your display and create a LUT to view HDR material on HDR or non HDR enabled displays with a Radiance. In my tests i've found the best results are to set the GLOBAL VIDEO HDR rec2020 both to ON. This makes sources know they can output those signal types even if the display cannot show them. Then assign the CMS bank you want to use to the REC2020/HDR section of Pro. Then change COLOURSPACE of CMS bank to SDR709. This stops Radiance from outputting HDR REC2020 info frame to display so you wont have your HDR enabled display bouncing in to it's crappy HDR mode when you don't want it to. Then find the widest gamut, brightest light output mode with most linearity available. Then profile away. I then usually make a three different LUTs with varying roll off points and roll off amounts to find the best viewable option on the display system i am working on.


This sounds really great!!! There are times even with the 5000ES that the HDR version of the 4K UHD is lacking, and the SDR version is preferred this option that the Lumagen offers is very welcomed.


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


Beta 102916- Fixed bug in version 102116 that in some cases could cause audio problems. Fix for input setup not using correct input configuration in some situations. Fix for issue that in some custom mode setups would make the menu unreadable. Fix for a couple video loss issues. Some minor menu fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


----------



## tspotorno

p5browne said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> Beta 102916- Fixed bug in version 102116 that in some cases could cause audio problems. Fix for input setup not using correct input configuration in some situations. Fix for issue that in some custom mode setups would make the menu unreadable. Fix for a couple video loss issues. Some minor menu fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


FYI, this update fixed all of the audio dropout issues that I was having with the Strato and the Panasonic UHD player!

However, my DirecTV DVR HR24-500 will not pass the audio thru the Pro to the RS20i. I have to run standard stereo cables... Anyone else having issues with their DirecTV boxes?


----------



## Eventidal

p5browne said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> Beta 102916- Fixed bug in version 102116 that in some cases could cause audio problems. Fix for input setup not using correct input configuration in some situations. Fix for issue that in some custom mode setups would make the menu unreadable. Fix for a couple video loss issues. Some minor menu fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minute @230k from previous firmware


I was having big issues with the Pana 900 while switching from blu ray to Netflix. The screen would turn dark and I would have to turn the radiance completely off to get a signal. Also I would demand to change the position of the Darbee in the processing chain as all of my sources (Satellite Sky, Pana UHD, PS4 etc.) are 4k now and they output 4k even if the material is 1080 or below. The point is, that even if I convert the signal within the radiance I cannot use the Darbee as it is in first position...


----------



## mhafner

*Genlock*

Has the genlock bug with the JVC projectors been fixed?


----------



## Wookii

mhafner said:


> Has the genlock bug with the JVC projectors been fixed?


Not as far as I am aware, no. I was under the impression they were going to roll back to the Genlock code that was in the Pro originally, and did work great with the JVC's, but they must have chosen to take a different route as I've still not seen Genlock changes appear in any recent firmwares.


----------



## SJHT

What calibration material from the Lumagen Pro are folks using to set brightness with using STANDARD PIC on JVCs? In the past, I have used enhanced which allowed "blacker than black" making calibration easier, but most feedback from the JVC forum is that calibrators are using STANDARD. Just curious. Contrast is straightforward with the ramp pattern and I so use that same pattern for setting brightness. Maybe a bit off topic, but thanks.... SJ


----------



## rfpublic

mhafner said:


> Has the genlock bug with the JVC projectors been fixed?


Lumagen has the JVC genlock issue on our list. We just raised the priority for working on this issue.

Randy Freeman


----------



## p5browne

Beta # 102916 - Don't use---has bug with selecting output mode correctly. Wait for next FW update.

Fixed bug in version 102116 that in some cases could cause audio problems. Fix for input setup not using correct input configuration in some situations. Fix for issue that in some custom mode setups would make the menu unreadable. Fix for a couple video loss issues. Some minor menu fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .


----------



## Mike_WI

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates



> *Beta 110116*-
> Fix for output mode selection issue in 102916 and includes all other improvements listed in 102916 update.
> Fixed up an issue in 101416-102916 firmware that could cause loss of video in some situations like fast forwarding with some source devices.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## dlinsley

*USB extender or long RS232 for calibration?*

I've asked Lumagen for a recommendation, but thought I'd ask the collective wisdom here too.

I'm currently remodeling, and my equipment is moving from about 10' from the screen to a closet at the back of the room about 25' from the screen. During calibrating, I guess I could extended the colorimeter/spectro USB cable but presumably the easiest option is to keep my laptop on the floor by the screen as I have been doing and instead extend the connection to the Radiance. Has anyone used a long USB extender or just a long RS232 cable? Till now I was using USB during calibration to avoid unplugging the control system from the RS232, but I may not be using that when I put everything back together.

Thanks!


----------



## alex_t

dlinsley said:


> I've asked Lumagen for a recommendation, but thought I'd ask the collective wisdom here too.
> 
> I'm currently remodeling, and my equipment is moving from about 10' from the screen to a closet at the back of the room about 25' from the screen. During calibrating, I guess I could extended the colorimeter/spectro USB cable but presumably the easiest option is to keep my laptop on the floor by the screen as I have been doing and instead extend the connection to the Radiance. Has anyone used a long USB extender or just a long RS232 cable? Till now I was using USB during calibration to avoid unplugging the control system from the RS232, but I may not be using that when I put everything back together.
> 
> Thanks!


Hello.

USB supports length up to 5 meters. Beyond that you need to add an active repeater.

RS232 has theoretically no limit for the length but, actually, the speed for data transfer (baud) decreases according to the total length.

For length more than 5 meter I would use the RS232 port or an active USB repeater if you prefer USB.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

As i have used a USB to serial adapter with my leptop since the days of the original Lumagen vision series i continue to do so. I have a 10m extension cable i plug in to my 2m null modem cable and my short usb to serial adapter and this works no problem. I have used this on an old samsung win7 laptop, a macbook (2012) and two macbook pro's from 2010 and 2016....


----------



## alex_t

Gordon Fraser said:


> As i have used a USB to serial adapter with my leptop since the days of the original Lumagen vision series i continue to do so. I have a 10m extension cable i plug in to my 2m null modem cable and my short usb to serial adapter and this works no problem. I have used this on an old samsung win7 laptop, a macbook (2012) and two macbook pro's from 2010 and 2016....


Hello Gordon,

I do exactly the same. USB to serial plus a straight extension RS232 cable (12m).


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## Mark_H

Using about 20' of USB here without issues. Previously I'd run a long RS232 cable and have to unplug the Radiance from the Crestron control, but no more. USB for the win!


----------



## dlinsley

Thanks everyone, so both work well 

I still have the USB-Serial adapter I used with my XD (and would have to feel around back to switch it over) but with the Pro I switched to USB to leave the RS232 plugged in. The Radiance will be barely using 5% of even USB 1's bandwidth, so I'll just go with whatever Fry's have in stock.


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## jjcook

You can try a Tripp Lite USB repeater cable; I haven't used it with my Radiance 2143 but it's worked perfectly fororher applications:

Tripp Lite USB 2.0 Hi-Speed A/B Active Repeater Cable (M/M) 25-ft. (U042-025) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BFRKYSU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_VvnmybFDH7NA8


----------



## dlinsley

jjcook said:


> You can try a Tripp Lite USB repeater cable; I haven't used it with my Radiance 2143 but it's worked perfectly fororher applications:
> 
> Tripp Lite USB 2.0 Hi-Speed A/B Active Repeater Cable (M/M) 25-ft. (U042-025) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BFRKYSU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_VvnmybFDH7NA8


Thanks! I've ordered the 36' version (great price for both this and the 25') as I can leave it plugged into the Radiance in my rack and then bundled up in my rack drawer ready to just slide open and unspool when I need it - with enough length still to get to the far end of the room. Perfect.

With the frequency of updates from Lumagen, I can just relax in a chair too rather than being tied to the rack


----------



## MJV29

dlinsley said:


> jjcook said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can try a Tripp Lite USB repeater cable; I haven't used it with my Radiance 2143 but it's worked perfectly fororher applications:
> 
> Tripp Lite USB 2.0 Hi-Speed A/B Active Repeater Cable (M/M) 25-ft. (U042-025) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BFRKYSU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_VvnmybFDH7NA8
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I've ordered the 36' version (great price for both this and the 25') as I can leave it plugged into the Radiance in my rack and then bundled up in my rack drawer ready to just slide open and unspool when I need it - with enough length still to get to the far end of the room. Perfect.
> 
> With the frequency of updates from Lumagen, I can just relax in a chair too rather than being tied to the rack
Click to expand...


Could you let us all know if this works for you? I would love to be able to do the same thing.


----------



## dlinsley

MJV29 said:


> Could you let us all know if this works for you? I would love to be able to do the same thing.


Will do. It may be a while to do so in anger, but I can plug my Radiance in just to try it when it comes.

My build thread is way out date, with much changes but I'm on the down slope now (I hope!)


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Light Illussion has released a Beta Version of LightSpace CMS 7.1.7.2513 (21 November 2016) which adding an HDR Multiplier feature for HDR Projection.

This gives the capability to test different Luminance multipliers, like 2x or 6x or 10x etc. to see which looks better to your setup, since the 3D LUT correction generation is very quick (2-3sec).

With projectors since they are not officially supported for HDR, you can use the x10 'Cheat'. (I have posted an example here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-496.html#post47096753)

This is basically what Dolby do with their HDR projection.

So the 100nits peak white output projector is treated as if it were 1000nits.

The normal HDR EOTF is then applied as for 1000nits.

But now you can try different luminance multiplier values using that LightSpace Beta.

If there are users that are interesting to take a test drive; I can provide them a download link, just contact me here.


----------



## turls

Has anyone used a Dune Solo 4K with Radiance Pro? I have .ISOs that won't play in 3D on it, and these are .ISOs that play with a Mede8er through the Radiance Pro, and in another room through a seperate matrix video setup using Dune HD Base 3D.

Newest beta firmware on both boxes.

EDIT: was some type of glitch (support is telling me I have cabling issues with the inconsistency I have with this box and various sources). Worked last night. Only different I know of was a different day and maybe a different power on order (although I tried some power cycling the other night without success).


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

About LightSpace and HDR, there added some more info, including with the new projection multiplier, to the website: http://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html and http://www.lightillusion.com/lut_manual.html#source_colour_space


----------



## p5browne

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 110416- Fix for an issue causing banding with HDR or Rec2020 sources. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .


----------



## Wookii

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Light Illussion has released a Beta Version of LightSpace CMS 7.1.7.2513 (21 November 2016) which adding an HDR Multiplier feature for HDR Projection. . .


Ted, would I be right in thinking that a user would currently need to produce a separate 3D LUT, in different CMS slots, for each disc mastering level (1000 nits, 4000 nits, 10000 nits etc) and switch between them manually as required?

I assume the end game is for the Radiance to inspect the incoming HDR metadata and select the correct LUT on the fly?


----------



## Mike_WI

Any word on the 18 GHz output card?

Mike


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I guess you mean the 18GHz output card? That's one for Jim to answer.


----------



## Mike_WI

Gordon Fraser said:


> I guess you mean the 18GHz output card? That's one for Jim to answer.


Yes. Thanks. Corrected.


----------



## Kris Deering

I heard some time this month (December). So soon!


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Wookii said:


> Ted, would I be right in thinking that a user would currently need to produce a separate 3D LUT, in different CMS slots, for each disc mastering level (1000 nits, 4000 nits, 10000 nits etc) and switch between them manually as required?
> 
> I assume the end game is for the Radiance to inspect the incoming HDR metadata and select the correct LUT on the fly?


Hi, I missed that quote, there no need to do a separate 3D LUT for different disk mastering peak luminance, you will create one 3D LUT according to your display's (LCD-LED/OLED) peak output capabilities or use the multiplier for high output projectors.

It has to be found a way to bypass the internal's display gamut/tone mapping to be able to do 3D LUT for HDR.


----------



## BakeApples

jrp said:


> PoP (Picture Outside Picture) is a second input displayed next to a reduced size main image.
> PoP works very well on a 2.35 screen to display two 16:9 sports games.


Just wondering if you have any timeline for this PoP feature to be implemented?
I imagine that this should be the ultimate way to compare UHD SDR with HDR images side by side on a 2.35:1 screen Can`t wait to try it out.


----------



## giftedmd

Just finished calibrating my JVC x750r for HDR using the radiance pro and the latest lightspace CMS. Took most of the weekend (I had never used lightspace before so took a while to get a hang of the workflow) but I am VERY pleased with the results. This is definitely the best way to watch hdr on the jvc. I had previously been using the HDR to SDR conversion on the Panasonic ub900 but the radiance pro does a much better job via the HDR multiplier in lightspace. I get full use of dynamic iris so keeps black floor pretty low even in high lamp mode. Got a 150 nits peak luminance in high lamp mode. Tried multiple conversions but ended up converting to 1200 nits with 10x multiplier and no roll off looking the best. Took me a while to figure out I had to keep everything in gamma d and adjust the picture tone values etc to get the right colors. Thanks to Gordon, Ted and others! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## loggeo

giftedmd said:


> Just finished calibrating my JVC x750r for HDR using the radiance pro and the latest lightspace CMS. Took most of the weekend (I had never used lightspace before so took a while to get a hang of the workflow) but I am VERY pleased with the results. This is definitely the best way to watch hdr on the jvc. I had previously been using the HDR to SDR conversion on the Panasonic ub900 but the radiance pro does a much better job via the HDR multiplier in lightspace. I get full use of dynamic iris so keeps black floor pretty low even in high lamp mode. Got a 150 nits peak luminance in high lamp mode. Tried multiple conversions but ended up converting to 1200 nits with 10x multiplier and no roll off looking the best. Took me a while to figure out I had to keep everything in gamma d and adjust the picture tone values etc to get the right colors. Thanks to Gordon, Ted and others!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


This is interesting. I had been going through the same method but (was told) stayed away of gamma d. I guess the process has changed. Can you give us a step by step?


----------



## giftedmd

loggeo said:


> This is interesting. I had been going through the same method but (was told) stayed away of gamma d. I guess the process has changed. Can you give us a step by step?


I can try but I am far from an expert since I have been calibrating for like, um, 2 days lol. I can tell you what worked for me but I think Gordon is working on a step by step so I would go with that.

In regards to gamma d, I think it is definitely a little broken out of the box but it is the only way i could make HDR look right on the JVC. The end result turned out pretty darn nice though. JVC recommends changing Picture tone to 12, dark level to 5, bright level to 4 for HDR. I made sure these settings were for all colors in the gamma menu - white, green, blue, red, etc. I set up a new user picture setting in JVC and called it HDR. This had BT2020 color, gamma D with the appropriate settings i just mentioned, high lamp, manual iris wide open (i.e. 0). All other picture enhancements and settings off or 0. In the radiance pro you want to select a CMS you want to use for HDR. The changes will overwrite whatever CMS you have engaged currently. In the CMS i set colorspace to SDR2020, and in Global I set Rec2020 and HDR to auto.
Then in lightspace you go to upload, in the options set TPG dropdrowns to HDR and Rec2020. Upload small or medium calibration patches, whichever gives you highest nits value. Then go to tools -> calibration -> display characterization. Go to options and check your max luminance so you know what your projector is capable of. Make sure projector is selected. I left display type as CRT but I honestly dont know which is best. I seemed to get weird luminance values with the others. Then run the longest calibration you have the patience for - 1D+3D, closed loop mode. Save it and name it something you will remember.
Then go to tools -> colour space -> convert colour space. On source section select ST2084_Rec2020 from the dropdown then set SMPTE 2084 tranfer to 10x the luminance value you got from the options tab measurements above. I.e. if you got 100 nits max luminance set it to 1000, although I would probably stop at 1200 if you got something higher than 120 but this is where you can experiment. Click EOTF Nits and set multiplier to 10x and you can engage a soft roll off - i just tried using a 90% roll off or no roll off. I didnt change the soft roll off limit. Again you can experiment and see what you get. You can save multiple versions of the source parameters by clicking on the save button next to the drop down and naming them different things like "HDR2020 1200 10x 90%". In the destination colour space dropdown select the name of the display characterization calibration you did before. Name the colour space image and then create new.
Next you go to Tools -> Calibration -> calibration interface. In Measurement select the LUT colour space image you just created in the prior step. Under colour standard target select the name of one of the source parameters for the SMPTE 2084 EOTF you created. Then you go to Quick profiling and do a few of the measurements like gray scale only and gamut sweep to see how closely your measured profile matches the gamma curves for the ST2084 Rec2020 colour space. You do this by clicking on the manage button anywhere and selecting the source profile and looking at the Gamma tab. If the curves match closely you have a good profile, if they dont you can try another profile or experiment in the colour space conversion area again. Once you are satisfied with one of your profiles, save it and save in the radiance pro.
Now you can go back to the JVC menu and turn on auto iris 1 or 2 and any other enhancements you like. The UHD blu ray player should be outputting HDR2020 and the JVC should be seeing SDR2020 so the radiance pro is doing the tone mapping/conversion.

Again this worked for me, but Im sure the experts here or in the Lightspace forum would do a better job.

EDIT: I actually got better results converting to 1000 nits instead of 1200. 1200 was a little too dim overall. With 1000 I used a multiplier of 7 because I can get 155 nits. Most of the hdr movies I have must be mastered at 1000 nits so clipping at 1200 must push the whole image darker. Again experiment to find what works best for you.


----------



## SJHT

Which version of Lightspace CMS do you need to do this? SJ


----------



## giftedmd

SJHT said:


> Which version of Lightspace CMS do you need to do this? SJ


I'm using LTE. Not sure which other versions would allow you to do it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

SJHT said:


> Which version of Lightspace CMS do you need to do this? SJ


Hi, LightSpace HTL (for i1Display PRO, i1PRO1/2 etc.) / LightSpace HTP (if you are using hi-end meters), both license levels can work with any Lumagen processor.


----------



## Mark_H

Any news on how Lumagen is progressing with the tone-mapping HDR support for CalMAN? All this Lightspace/HDR talk is making me jealous...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The methodology above is pretty much how i do it except i've found using a more normal gamma is best rather than any displays own HDR mapping. My guide is not specific to JVC it's for any display. I finished it yesterday...it's not super professional as i've been in such a rush and have been grabbing pictures and screen grabs whenever i can to put in it. It's being proofed now and i'll send it out and post it when it's verified.

oh and i am finding that for most projectors x4-x7 is where i end up...150Nits is a lot of light for a projector! I haven't managed to do one that bright yet!


Mark: i presume that Calman can do what LightIllusion are already doing. They have access to the same protocols. I guess they are waiting for Lumagens own tonemapping HDR update before they proceeed.


----------



## Mark_H

Gordon Fraser said:


> Mark: i presume that Calman can do what LightIllusion are already doing. They have access to the same protocols. I guess they are waiting for Lumagens own tonemapping HDR update before they proceeed.


Correct. CalMAN have stated they are waiting upon Lumagen to implement tone-mapping, which is why I asked here... Lumagen seem to be the current bottleneck for CalMAN users.


----------



## giftedmd

Gordon Fraser said:


> The methodology above is pretty much how i do it except i've found using a more normal gamma is best rather than any displays own HDR mapping. My guide is not specific to JVC it's for any display. I finished it yesterday...it's not super professional as i've been in such a rush and have been grabbing pictures and screen grabs whenever i can to put in it. It's being proofed now and i'll send it out and post it when it's verified.
> 
> oh and i am finding that for most projectors x4-x7 is where i end up...150Nits is a lot of light for a projector! I haven't managed to do one that bright yet!
> 
> 
> Mark: i presume that Calman can do what LightIllusion are already doing. They have access to the same protocols. I guess they are waiting for Lumagens own tonemapping HDR update before they proceeed.


Thanks, Gordon.
I tried using the normal gamma setting in the JVC and ended up with a very desaturated image. Wasn't until I switched to gamma D did it look right again. Gamma D looks terrible on SDR sources even the HDR>SDR conversion that comes from the UHD Blu ray player. Not sure why but HDR does not look right on the JVC unless it's in gamma D. Probably just a JVC issue.

Of course you can calibrate in a normal gamma and switch to gamma D afterwards instead of calibrating in gamma D. I may try that again but I honestly have no complaints about the image using gamma D throughout. In fact it is pretty much flawless to my admittedly untrained eye. I figured since I was going to end up in gamma D then why not use it from the beginning so I can calibrate out any of its issues.

Oh and I use a high gain 2.0 screen so that probably accounts for the 150 nits.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## henrich3

jrp said:


> I will try to cover questions in general here concerning HDR and Rec 2020 calibration.
> 
> We are working with Lightspace, Spectracal, and Chromapure, on implementation of Rec 2020 and HDR calibration. I do not know the schedule for the calibration software, but I believe there is a good chance for the first pass calibration software from Spectracal and Lightspace in the next month or so. I am making my educated guess. It is of course up to the software companies to say how much work they think it is.
> 
> *We have an additional feature to implement in the FPGA as part of the work on calibration. This is a "Shaping LUT." Note that a shaping LUT is different than the Tone Mapping being discussed. The shaping LUT is a 1D LUT meant to better match the input Max Light Level to the projector/TV maximum light output. We are discussing Tone Mapping but that is not in the near term plan and it may be that the video calibration pipeline in the Radiance Pro already has the needed flexibility and that calibration software does all the work for tone mapping.
> *
> For the Pro calibration there will be a Rec 709 3D LUT and a HDR/Rec2020 3D LUT. Which one to use is automatically selected based on the input Info Frame specifying HDR or Rec2020, and the current output setup which now has separate CMS settings for Rec709 and for HDR/Rec2020. The Radiance Pro has eight CMS memories and it takes two for each setup. Therefore you can have four different calibrations, which would allow a day/night mode setup for a TV and for a projector.
> 
> The calibration software will do the 3D LUT calibration for the HDR/2020 source. This proceeds basically as with Rec 709, with the addition of the Shaping LUT. Note that you can put a non-HDR, non-2020, TV/projector into a bright mode with its widest Gamut mode and calibrate for HDR/Rec2020 to the best ability of the TV/projector. This is not just removing the HDR and Rec 2020 flags as been available in some products. The Gamma and 3D LUT must be properly calibrated for this case to look correct.
> 
> Most often there will be two measurement runs, one with the TV/projector in Rec709 mode, and one for HDR/Rec2020. This later may be using a Rec709 TV/projector with different settings (bright lamp mode and wide Gamut perhaps) for HDR than for Rec709 source.
> 
> The Radiance Pro can be used as a calibration test pattern generator for HDR and Rec 2020. If you are interested you can see the updated Tech Tip 11 here: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals for information on the commands available. Note that the Shaping LUT is not in the Tech Tip yet. Also note that calibration patterns are not the same as general test patterns (e.g. chroma burst, etc.). We may implement some Rec 2020 and HDR specific test patterns in the future. The calibration test patterns are the same window patterns (with appropriate regard to the HDR Gamma, and Rec 2020 Gamut, as used for Rec 709. We will be working with teh calibration software companies and if they want additional patterns we will consider adding them.





jrp said:


> *At the time of this post, none of the calibration software programs can correctly calibrate the Radiance Pro when using HDR or Rec2020. This is because the operation is different for these than Rec 709 and the changes need to be put in the software programs before they will do the correct calibration. The Shaping LUT plays into this and it is something we are working on at Lumagen with the calibration software companies.*





jrp said:


> *We are still working out details of the Shaping LUT. In the mean time you will be able to calibrate for a given source Max Display Mastering Luminance, once you have the color calibration software that supports the Radiance Pro. The color measurements you take should continue to be valid once the Shaping LUT is in place. You would use the same measurements to create a new 3D-LUT plus Shaping LUT data set once the Shaping LUT is in the hardware and calibration software.*
> 
> The calibration software can select HDR/Rec2020 mode for the patterns and control the output HDR info frame data and Rec2020 mode. So the software has enough control to accurately measure TV/projector output, and can even measure with various HDR info frame parameters if desired.


Can you please provide status on the Pro's Shaping LUT firmware update? That is my number one concern about the Radiance Pro firmware that I hope will become reality before my pro UHD/HDR calibration takes place on Jan. 20th. My calibrator lives out of state, so it's not trivial to get him back out here if things aren't right. (He uses LightSpace.) My RS600 pj doesn't perform well with HDR, so I disable the HDR flag in the Pro to obtain a clipped SDR output. I consider that to be the lesser evil given the options that are currently available. The Shaping LUT update will allow a true tone mapped HDR -> SDR output, and that's my goal...


----------



## jamesmil

[deleted]


----------



## Gordon Fraser

My little guide document is complete but it's quite a big pdf file. Too big to put here. I have sent it to my website guys to put as a downloadable link on my own website but they didn't have time to do it yesterday. I'll upload it to dropbox today as well so if folk want a link to dropbox let me know by email (probably best) If you message me here i'll need your email address to add to the dropbox folder

Gordon


----------



## SJHT

Thinking about getting calibration software to allow the HDR to SDR conversion. Is it possible to have the input think you have HDR capability and the output to think you don't? My 4K source is a Kscape Strato. It will not send HDR (or even show me the movies) unless I turn on the HDR flag in the input settings. However, is there an output setting which can be made different than the input? Want the Strato to send HDR/REC2020 and then send SDR to my JVC RS600 (with the Pro sitting in between them). Thanks. SJ

EDIT: Just looked at your guide and sounds like my question is covered in there using the Output settings... Great stuff!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> Thinking about getting calibration software to allow the HDR to SDR conversion. Is it possible to have the input think you have HDR capability and the output to think you don't? My 4K source is a Kscape Strato. It will not send HDR (or even show me the movies) unless I turn on the HDR flag in the input settings. However, is there an output setting which can be made different than the input? Want the Strato to send HDR/REC2020 and then send SDR to my JVC RS600 (with the Pro sitting in between them). Thanks. SJ
> 
> EDIT: Just looked at your guide and sounds like my question is covered in there using the Output settings... Great stuff!



you got it! Yep, that's exactly how i do it. If anyone has a Sony VW320/520/550/5000 then you can get lumagen to send out SDR/2020 info frames and the Sony's will then automaotcially load up and allow access to their 2020 colourspace, without turning on their crappy HDR eotf profile. bingo!


----------



## SJHT

In your guide, you are showing changing the 3D settings (vs. just 2D)? SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> In your guide, you are showing changing the 3D settings (vs. just 2D)? SJ


am I? What 3D settings?
Let me go check


----------



## Gordon Fraser

well that's weird....one of the images shows the correct thing and the other two show 3D. Just for reference...it should be 2D...there is no 3D HDR/REC2020 content....i'll need to check if that was a bug in the firmware of it I just took pics of the wrong screens when i was doing the images....

sorry and well spotted!


----------



## SJHT

I wish somebody would write a manual like you did for overall basic calibration using a Lumagen Pro including pictures, etc. Including what exactly to select in Lightspace, how to do a LUT, etc. I seriously would gladly pay for that. I know this is not a substitute for an expert. Thanks again for taking the time so share. SJ


----------



## MJV29

SJHT said:


> I wish somebody would write a manual like you did for overall basic calibration using a Lumagen Pro including pictures, etc. Including what exactly to select in Lightspace, how to do a LUT, etc. I seriously would gladly pay for that. I know this is not a substitute for an expert. Thanks again for taking the time so share. SJ



I totally agree with you SJHT. I am new to all this with the Radiance and LightSpace. Trying to learn and soak in as much of this calibration stuff as possible. I would agree that I'd be willing to pay for a manual. I know it takes someone's time and effort and have no issue paying for that!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I'll work on one next. Wont charge for it. Thanks!


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> I'll work on one next. Wont charge for it. Thanks!


Appreciate it to include some basic like Brighntess and Contrast. Would you use the Lumagen Pro calibration material or something like Ted's disk? I find it easy to adjust contrast, but brightness seems to be more difficult with the built in Lumagen Pro patterns (using video standard on my projector), or maybe I'm just doing things wrong.... 

SJ


----------



## alex_t

SJHT said:


> Appreciate it to include some basic like Brighntess and Contrast. Would you use the Lumagen Pro calibration material or something like Ted's disk? I find it easy to adjust contrast, but brightness seems to be more difficult with the built in Lumagen Pro patterns (using video standard on my projector), or maybe I'm just doing things wrong....
> 
> SJ


Hello.

To set up black level and white level of the display you should use the Reference test patterns of Radiance. To set up the same in the source you need to use a calibration disk, Ted's disk is my favourite.
You need to do both.

The TIP number 5 from Lumagen in section "How to use the Contrast1 and Contrast2 patterns" (page 3) will give you all the necessary details to do black/white level for the display: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals

There are many other useful TIPs and they are all applicable for Radiance PRO and before the PRO.

Alexandre


----------



## SJHT

alex_t said:


> Hello.
> 
> To set up black level and white level of the display you should use the Reference test patterns of Radiance. To set up the same in the source you need to use a calibration disk, Ted's disk is my favourite.
> You need to do both.
> 
> The TIP number 5 from Lumagen in section "How to use the Contrast1 and Contrast2 patterns" (page 3) will give you all the necessary details to do black/white level for the display: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals
> 
> There are many other useful TIPs and they are all applicable for Radiance PRO and before the PRO.
> 
> Alexandre


Thanks I found that yesterday and read it. Will try, but most people with my projector (JVC RS600) use the video standard setting which doesn't display BTB or WTW. What % should be resolved for B and W using video standard? A full ramp pattern or patterns like Teds disk seems to cover this vs. the Lumagen patterns. SJ

Edit: set brightness so that the +4% black is barely visible (also one next to it in the ramp up disappears) and contrast to show things leading up to white. This should be good?


----------



## gaf

Hallo everybody,

has someone done some test with new Playstation4PRO?
I did and found that there is some issue to make recognize the 4K HDR of the display via LumagenPRO.
Into the PS4PRO there is a video option called "RGB2160" that is freezed: maybe we should use a 18Ghz card? or maybe
there is a trick to use it? Later I will try some more test and tell you.
Anybody else had some experience with PS4PRO?

Thank you, Gaf


----------



## BakeApples

So how is the HDR-->SDR conversion method using Lumagen Pro/LightSpace different from the players own conversion tool? The way i understand it, Panasonics UHD player has this function built in already and can output SDR/BT2020 with the help of a HDFury Integral. And the coming Oppo is also rumored to have this conversion tool. I have no doubt that the Lumagen/LightSpace method is the better one, i am just trying to understand how they differ and if it`s worth getting the Lightspace calibration software.

My projector is a Sony VW550 and would like to try and output SDR/BT2020 from my forthcoming Oppo player.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The difference is that the player and indeed the projector have absolutely no idea how bright peak white is on your display so their default settings are a "guess" as to what it might be and how best to map the absolute encoded levels of the HDR format in to the completely different levels available in your display. A TV manufacturer has the upper hand here as they know what peak light will be when they go to max light output...but just as with SDR REC709 the actual colour mapping is not going to be as accurate as it could potentially be and a slider in a display or player will have absolutely no effect on that.

I was just looking at a thread on here about the VW5000 and in it there was a comment that the new SonyHDR firmware (like that in the vw550) could do with the slider for brightness going up to "11". If you have the ability to measure the display and make a custom LUT you could make it go up to "12" Save​


----------



## gaf

Hallo again,

I did some more test yesterday with PS4PRO, Tv LG OLED, RadiancePro and I got two results:

- with games no HDR, I get 3840x2160, 59,94Hz, 420-SDR709 for input and output (input and output colorspace and style type AUTO)
- with games HDR, I get 1080p, 59,94Hz, RGB-HDR2020, for input; 59,94Hz, 420-HDR2020, for output (input and output colorspace and style type AUTO, with the exception of output colorspace forced to HDR2020: if I put AUTO, I get 420-HDR709..)

From your previous mail I understood that we need a 18Ghz input and output card to get: 3840x2160, 59,94Hz, RGB-HDR2020, for input and output 
My consideration is that at the moment with 9Ghz input and output card, for consolle games 4K, we lose for games HDR the internal render+upscale done from the consolle, but we use the Radiance upscale to UHD: it should be
better, or am I wrong?

Please, tell me your comments and experience.

Gaf


----------



## Gordon Fraser

i do not have a PS4 Pro and i don't play games so i am unable to commment. I would guess the question as to the best method for playback will depend on how the game is originally rendered in the player? Hopefully a knowledgeable gamer can advise

Gordon


----------



## LJG

Gordon Fraser said:


> The difference is that the player and indeed the projector have absolutely no idea how bright peak white is on your display so their default settings are a "guess" as to what it might be and how best to map the absolute encoded levels of the HDR format in to the completely different levels available in your display. A TV manufacturer has the upper hand here as they know what peak light will be when they go to max light output...but just as with SDR REC709 the actual colour mapping is not going to be as accurate as it could potentially be and a slider in a display or player will have absolutely no effect on that.
> 
> I was just looking at a thread on here about the VW5000 and in it there was a comment that the new SonyHDR firmware (like that in the vw550) could do with the slider for brightness going up to "11". If you have the ability to measure the display and make a custom LUT you could make it go up to "12" Save​


The Sony 5000ES goes from 1-100, the tone mapping is pretty good now, but always room for improvement


----------



## giftedmd

Gordon Fraser said:


> My little guide document is complete but it's quite a big pdf file. Too big to put here. I have sent it to my website guys to put as a downloadable link on my own website but they didn't have time to do it yesterday. I'll upload it to dropbox today as well so if folk want a link to dropbox let me know by email (probably best) If you message me here i'll need your email address to add to the dropbox folder
> 
> Gordon


Gordon, thanks a lot for this excellent guide. After playing around with HDR 3D luts again this weekend with lightspace and your guide I am getting even better results! I think the key is the manual adjustment of grayscale in the radiance pro after uploading the 3d lut. That brought back the overall brightness and balance of the image that was lost after generating the lut. Now I am able to play widescreen movies using zoom method when before it was too dim. I can even watch in low lamp mode. And I ended up with x4 hdr multiplier even with 150 nits. I like a bright image. 

On my JVC gamma 2.6 was the most accurate and matched the gamma of UHD rec2020 but I still end up putting it back into gamma D after calibration. The other gamma settings don't look bad like before but gamma D just gives the image that pop I want to see with HDR. 

















My camera can't capture the dynamic range of the image I'm seeing, either looks like highlights are blown or blacks are crushed but neither is happening (also oversaturates the image. Need a better camera). Looks really great.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

giftedmd said:


> Gordon, thanks a lot for this excellent guide. After playing around with HDR 3D luts again this weekend with lightspace and your guide I am getting even better results! I think the key is the manual adjustment of grayscale in the radiance pro after uploading the 3d lut. That brought back the overall brightness and balance of the image that was lost after generating the lut. Now I am able to play widescreen movies using zoom method when before it was too dim. I can even watch in low lamp mode. And I ended up with x4 hdr multiplier even with 150 nits. I like a bright image.
> 
> On my JVC gamma 2.6 was the most accurate and matched the gamma of UHD rec2020 but I still end up putting it back into gamma D after calibration. The other gamma settings don't look bad like before but gamma D just gives the image that pop I want to see with HDR.


I thought the goal was to not use Gamma D? Or are you going HDR/REC2020 to SDR/REC2020 (Gamma D)? I'm going to start working on this over the next few weeks with the help of Gordon's guide. Thanks. SJ


----------



## giftedmd

SJHT said:


> I thought the goal was to not use Gamma D? Or are you going HDR/REC2020 to SDR/REC2020 (Gamma D)? I'm going to start working on this over the next few weeks with the help of Gordon's guide. Thanks. SJ


The goal for me was to tone map the HDR image to the capabilities of the projector instead of the Blu ray player guessing. The other benefit is converting hdr to sdr so the JVC does not go into its hdr mode. I am still doing that hdr to sdr conversion in the pro so I can choose the lamp mode I want, the gamma setting I want and reclaim the dynamic iris. Gamma D is just the gamma setting I prefer for hdr. With some tweaking I actually quite like it even though it is not "accurate". Some may like a more accurate one. At least with this method we have a choice.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Wookii

giftedmd said:


> The goal for me was to tone map the HDR image to the capabilities of the projector instead of the Blu ray player guessing. The other benefit is converting hdr to sdr so the JVC does not go into its hdr mode. I am still doing that hdr to sdr conversion in the pro so I can choose the lamp mode I want, the gamma setting I want and reclaim the dynamic iris. Gamma D is just the gamma setting I prefer for hdr. With some tweaking I actually quite like it even though it is not "accurate". Some may like a more accurate one. At least with this method we have a choice.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Slightly off topic question, but as the Pro is the only device that can achieve this - how have you found the calibration and use of the dynamic iris on HDR content with the JVC. Have these in combination resulted in a better black floor, better dark scenes and fade to blacks than before?


----------



## giftedmd

Wookii said:


> Slightly off topic question, but as the Pro is the only device that can achieve this - how have you found the calibration and use of the dynamic iris on HDR content with the JVC. Have these in combination resulted in a better black floor, better dark scenes and fade to blacks than before?


Use of the dynamic iris definitely helps in fade to blacks and maintaining black levels from scene to scene. There is some amount of raised black level when running in high lamp mode you can't do anything about. The dynamic iris can't stop down enough in high lamp/aperture 0 to have the same fade to blacks as you do in low lamp/-4 to -10 aperture but it still beats having no dynamic iris at all. I like a bright/dynamic image so I'm ok with the trade off and prefer my hdr in high lamp mode with widest aperture. In scene, black still looks as black as you could want it. But if you really need black fade to blacks you can calibrate in low lamp mode and tone map everything to that and still end up with a really nice image. You have the choice.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mike_WI

*Oppo UDP-203 4K source*

Many people on this list are probably interested in the Oppo UDP-203 (205) as a 4K source.
Especially for the new input and output cards.
Mod can delete if thought off topic.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/

http://referencehometheater.com/press-release/oppo-releases-udp-203-4k-ultra-hd-blu-ray-disc-player/



> The UDP-203 will retail for $549 at oppodigital.com





Spoiler



OPPO Releases UDP-203 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc Player
by Press Release on December 12, 2016 in
Award-winning universal players reach a new level of clarity

MENLO PARK, California – December 12, 2016 – OPPO Digital today announced that the new UDP-203 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc player is ready for release. A successor to the award-winning BDP-103 series universal Blu-ray Disc player, the UDP-203 is the latest product released by the renowned manufacturer of high performance audio video products.

The OPPO UDP-203 supports the playback of 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Discs. Packing a resolution of up to 3840 x 2160 pixels, UHD Blu-ray delivers four times the pixels of Full HD Blu-ray. The UDP-203 also supports High Dynamic Range (HDR) and Wide Color Gamut. The enhanced resolution, refined contrast, greater brightness, and expanded color produce stunning video with unparalleled clarity and detail.

The UDP-203 combines the latest technology with OPPO’s many years of experience in delivering high quality video and audio. A customized quad-core video decoder/processor integrates OPPO’s advanced video decoding, processing and optimization expertise. A high-precision, well-balanced laser optical disc loader ensures smooth and reliable playback of all types of disc media. The player features two HDMI outputs – an HDMI 2.0 port for connecting to the latest UHD TVs, projectors and A/V receivers, and an HDMI 1.4 audio port for connecting to older A/V receivers.

The design of the UDP-203 focuses on quality playback and universal compatibility with multiple disc and file formats. In addition to the latest UHD Blu-ray, the UDP-203 supports regular Blu-ray, Blu-ray 3D, DVD, DVD-Audio, SACD, and audio CD. The UDP-203 is equipped with two USB 3.0 ports on the back and another USB port on the front. Users can play video, music and photos from USB hard drives or thumb drives. Built-in 802.11ac Wi-Fi or Gigabit Ethernet connects the UDP-203 to users’ home networks, so users can easily play media files stored on computers and home servers.

The UDP-203’s video performance and universal compatibility is further complemented by its support of lossless high resolution audio. The player decodes audio file formats such as AIFF, WAV, ALAC, APE and FLAC. It also directly plays Direct-Stream Digital audio files in stereo DSD64/128 or multi-channel DSD64. With internal decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, and bitstream output for object-based immersive audio formats such as Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, the UDP-203 delivers great sound for both movie soundtracks and music. Besides HDMI, audio is concurrently available through the 7.1-channel analog outputs, featuring “Velvet Sound” 32-bit premium digital-to-analog converters from AKM of Japan.

In order to provide a premium user experience with quick start-up times and fast response, the UDP-203 is designed with a purist approach in mind for disc and file playback, and so it does not carry internet video and music streaming apps. Instead, an HDMI 2.0 input port that supports UHD resolution is available for users to connect an external streaming device. This approach affords users the flexibility to choose from a wide range of streaming devices and easily upgrade as streaming technologies evolve, while still taking advantage of the UDP-203’s audio and video processing capabilities.

Continuing OPPO’s tradition of providing firmware updates long after the initial release, the UDP-203 is upgradable via an easy-to-perform firmware update process. Since the Ultra HD Blu-ray format is still very new, customers can expect ongoing firmware updates that introduce new features and resolve issues. Leveraging hardware designed to support Dolby Vision, customers can expect a firmware update in early 2017 that brings Dolby Vision support to the player. Dolby Vision transforms the TV viewing experience by delivering striking highlights, brilliant colors, and deep darks never before seen on standard television screens, and OPPO is committed to bringing this exciting technology to the UDP-203.

UDP-203 customers will have years of enjoyment from this expertly designed and solidly built player. A brushed aluminum front panel, steel chassis and gold plated connectors not only present a sleek aesthetic, but also ensure dependable operation and reliable connection. Integration-friendly features such as RS-232 control, back panel IR sensor and third-party IP control make the UDP-203 a great choice for any home theater system.

UDP-203 Main Features:

Universal disc playback for 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray and many other formats
High Dynamic Range with HDR10 and firmware upgradable to Dolby Vision
Two HDMI outputs – HDMI 2.0 for UHD and HDMI 1.4 for audio
HDMI 2.0 input for external streaming devices or set-top boxes
Two USB 3.0 ports for media file playback
High resolution audio with lossless decoding for PCM and DSD
7.1ch analog audio outputs with premium 32-bit “Velvet Sound” DAC by AKM
Excellent audio and video performance
Upgradable and dependable
In addition to the UDP-203, a UDP-205 model is in development as a successor to the BDP-105/105D with upgraded audio performance. The UDP-205 should be available in early 2017.

The UDP-203 will retail for $549 at oppodigital.com. For more information, visit http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/.

*Registered trademarks and trademarks are the properties of their respective owners.

About OPPO Digital

Based in the heart of Silicon Valley, OPPO Digital designs and markets high quality digital electronics that deliver style, performance, innovation, and value to A/V enthusiasts and savvy consumers alike. The company’s attention to core product performance and strong customer focus distinguishes it from traditional consumer-electronics brands.


----------



## [email protected]

quick question. Was going to get Oppo 203 player to hook to radiance pro. Redoing all my gear so not hooked up but the radiance pro can convert 2d to 3d. I would rather not wait for the upgraded version of opp if not needed since will use the radiance pro to process everything. thanks for the quick answer. 

-Rob


----------



## Mike_WI

[email protected] said:


> quick question. Was going to get Oppo 203 player to hook to radiance pro. Redoing all my gear so not hooked up but the radiance pro can convert 2d to 3d. I would rather not wait for the upgraded version of opp if not needed since will use the radiance pro to process everything. thanks for the quick answer.
> 
> -Rob


I'm not sure what your exact question is, but if you are asking if you need to wait for the Oppo UDP-205 I would say no.
The 205 will have improved analog stages.


----------



## [email protected]

I like to, at times, convert regular 2d shows/films to 3d for effect. My prior OppoD would do this. I was wondering if the radiance pro can do this already, as the new 203 doesnt have that functionality but would want it in one of the sources. If the radiance can do it, then I dont need to wait for future versions of OPPO player with that built in.


----------



## Mike_WI

[email protected] said:


> I like to, at times, convert regular 2d shows/films to 3d for effect. My prior OppoD would do this. I was wondering if the radiance pro can do this already, as the new 203 doesnt have that functionality but would want it in one of the sources. If the radiance can do it, then I dont need to wait for future versions of OPPO player with that built in.


Why do you think the Oppo UDP-205 will have a 2D->3D functionality if the 203 doesn't?


----------



## [email protected]

That was there system in past they came out with one model and then another with darbee in it that had that functionality. Not sure if the 205 will but thought they would come out with one with darbee later. either way, do you know if the radiance pro already has this capability?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The Radiance Pro does not have 2D to 3D conversion.


----------



## [email protected]

OK, thanks for the information.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Amazon Fire TV as source input for Lumagen Radiance Pro*

I'm having trouble getting an Amazon Fire TV to show up via Lumagen RadiancePro.
When I plug in a source to an input the input works.
When I plug in the Amazon Fire TV (powered on and connected to Ethernet) there is only a black screen.
Once when I unplugged/re-plugged the Amazon Fire TV power I got an "Amazon" message on screen, but then nothing.
Also, when I hit "ok" on the Lumagen remote to pull up the INFO screen nothing happens.
If I remove the HDMI from the Amazon Fire TV source from Lumagen the Ok button works.

I am on an older Firmware. Will update that.

Thoughts?

Mike

Update #1 
Updating FW to 110416 didn't change anything

Update #2 
Tried my older Amazon Fire TV Stick (older version) in same HDMI input and that worked. So I guess some issue with my newer Amazon Fire TV box.

Update #3 
Tried a number of reboot techniques. None worked. Will try to return as old stick has dual processors vs. box quad. Thinking of Oppo 103->203 transition and streaming updated method.

Update #4 [Fixed] - 12-15-16
JRP found the answer. See: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-35.html#post48992313

(bold added)


> The *Fire is HDCP 2.2* and so you need a HDCP 2.2 TV/projector if you go through the Pro (except see below).
> If you have a HDCP 2.2 TV/projector on a HDCP 2.2 input you can contact [email protected] for help with this.
> 
> If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/Projector you can get a HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.X down rev box like the HDFury Integral of Key Digital HDFix22.
> Put this between the Pro and the TV/projector.
> 
> If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector you should get an output from the Pro using the Fire if you tell the *Pro to only report HDCP 1.X to HDCP 2.2 *sources like the Fire.
> This is in the Menu but the direct command for this is MENU 0819.
> Make sure to Save after the change.


Projector is a JVC RS20, so must be non HDCP 2.2.
That fixed it. Thanks for all of the help. The solution wasn't obvious to me (obviously).


----------



## Mark_H

FWIW I've had no problems with Amazon FireTV on either of my Pros, so yours SHOULD work...

Does the FireTV work without the Pro in the chain? 

Tried different inputs on the Pro?


----------



## Mike_WI

Mark_H said:


> FWIW I've had no problems with Amazon FireTV on either of my Pros, so yours SHOULD work...
> 
> Does the FireTV work without the Pro in the chain?


Thanks for thoughts.

I haven't done that yet -- should of course. It is somewhat buried in a Middle Atlantic cabinet, so I need to pull ethernet, power out to move directly to a TV or projector.
Will try to do that tonight before sending back.
I hit the return/exchange for it on Amazon last night and message was that it was "out of warranty". Even though I bought it 5/3/16. Messaged Amazon customer service.



> Tried different inputs on the Pro?


Yes. Lumagen Radiance Pro inputs work with other sources. I tried FTV on other inputs with same issue.


----------



## dlinsley

[email protected] said:


> quick question. Was going to get Oppo 203 player to hook to radiance pro. Redoing all my gear so not hooked up but the radiance pro can convert 2d to 3d. I would rather not wait for the upgraded version of opp if not needed since will use the radiance pro to process everything. thanks for the quick answer.
> 
> -Rob





Mike_WI said:


> I'm not sure what your exact question is, but if you are asking if you need to wait for the Oppo UDP-205 I would say no.
> The 205 will have improved analog stages.





[email protected] said:


> I like to, at times, convert regular 2d shows/films to 3d for effect. My prior OppoD would do this. I was wondering if the radiance pro can do this already, as the new 203 doesnt have that functionality but would want it in one of the sources. If the radiance can do it, then I dont need to wait for future versions of OPPO player with that built in.





Gordon Fraser said:


> The Radiance Pro does not have 2D to 3D conversion.


Someone asked this question in one of the Oppo threads (maybe the OP here), and the manual for the 203 lists that it does support 2D->3D conversion still. Mine hasn't shipped yet, so I cannot confirm myself except I confirmed it is in the manual (available on Oppo's website).


----------



## [email protected]

Ok, so still a possibility? I am using a XBONE s for right now but missing out on ATMOS and have been holding out for OPPO so will wait to here final thoughts as they should be out and seeing review and findings soon. Thanks for the follow up. 
-Rob


----------



## jamesmil

*[email protected]*: Atmos (and other format) bitstreaming was just added to Xbox for people in their Preview Program, which means it should be available to everyone soon.


----------



## jrp

gaf said:


> Hallo again,
> 
> I did some more test yesterday with PS4PRO, Tv LG OLED, RadiancePro and I got two results:
> 
> - with games no HDR, I get 3840x2160, 59,94Hz, 420-SDR709 for input and output (input and output colorspace and style type AUTO)
> - with games HDR, I get 1080p, 59,94Hz, RGB-HDR2020, for input; 59,94Hz, 420-HDR2020, for output (input and output colorspace and style type AUTO, with the exception of output colorspace forced to HDR2020: if I put AUTO, I get 420-HDR709..)
> 
> From your previous mail I understood that we need a 18Ghz input and output card to get: 3840x2160, 59,94Hz, RGB-HDR2020, for input and output
> My consideration is that at the moment with 9Ghz input and output card, for consolle games 4K, we lose for games HDR the internal render+upscale done from the consolle, but we use the Radiance upscale to UHD: it should be
> better, or am I wrong?
> 
> Please, tell me your comments and experience.
> 
> Gaf


For 24 Hertz movies it is up to the source if you need 18 GHz or not. Well designed devices allow 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2 output for 4k movies. This is more precision than needed for HDR movies. Not all devices allow 4k24 4:2:2 output (XBox 1S and apparently the PS4Pro are in this camp). Devices that do include 4k24, 4:2:2 are the Panasonic UB900, Kaleidescape Strato, and with the recent update Samsung 8500. I expect the Oppo UHD player will as well.

For 4k60 HDR, which seems limited to games at the moment, you need 18 GHz for HDR. However, the source needs to support 4:2:2 for 4k60 HDR since 4k60 4:4:4 is only 8-bit at 18 GHz.


----------



## jrp

*Radiance Pro 18 GHz output cards*

We have the 18 GHz output cards working in the lab and are finishing the software. We expect to be shipping these by the end of December. The hardware is "production" and so there is no Beta program for the 18 GHz output.

The 18 GHz output card has one 18 GHz audio/video output (even output), and one audio only output (odd output). This is due to the architecture of the 18 GHz chip we use as it pertains to HDCP 2.2, and so the odd output will never carry video.

These will be available for retrofit, or as an upgrade at time of purchase. Please contact your Lumagen dealer for details, or you can email us directly at [email protected].


----------



## jrp

*Tone Mapping*



BakeApples said:


> So how is the HDR-->SDR conversion method using Lumagen Pro/LightSpace different from the players own conversion tool? The way i understand it, Panasonics UHD player has this function built in already and can output SDR/BT2020 with the help of a HDFury Integral. And the coming Oppo is also rumored to have this conversion tool. I have no doubt that the Lumagen/LightSpace method is the better one, i am just trying to understand how they differ and if it`s worth getting the Lightspace calibration software.
> 
> My projector is a Sony VW550 and would like to try and output SDR/BT2020 from my forthcoming Oppo player.


Tone Mapping with the Radiance Pro is split into two parts, color and intensity. This will work with HDR and non-HDR TVs and projectors.

The color mapping portion is completed with 3D LUT calibration. Lightspace has the 3D LUT calibration in Beta (last I heard from Steve). I am not sure where Spectracal (Calman) is in their release level but we are working with them on their Radiance Pro version. I understand in talking to Tom of Chromapure that they plan to support this as well. Once released, I believe any of these can work.

For intensity mapping the Lumagen Radiance Pro will have what we are referring to as a "Shaping LUT." The Pro Shaping LUT maps the source maximum brightness to the TV/Projector maximum brightness. The Shaping LUT dynamically adapts to the source maximum brightness specified in the HDR info frame to the TV/projector maximum brightness entered into the CMS memory, based on three Shaping LUT controls. For the Shaping LUT the maximum brightness of the TV/projector is entered in nits in the appropriate CMS configuration memory, and the three controls will be independently available for each input memory. 

The first of these controls determines the range of the lower intensities where the output level is intended to map nit-for-nit to the source level. For example for a 1000 nit source and a 250 nit TV, you may choose to map the lower 100 nits of source intensity nit-for nit to the TV output with the goal that for this intensity range a 250 nit and a 1000 nit TV would look the essentially the same.

The next control specifies if some range of the highest input intensities should be clipped. As an example, you might choose to clip the source at perhaps around 750 nits on a 250 nit TV, in the above example, since there is likely not a lot of content in this range and it is three times the brightness of the TV can manage. Many people do not like the idea of clipping and so the default will be to not clip. This does reduce the input to output intensity slope in the higher intensity range. With clipping more of the intensity range can be mapped closer to the source levels. I think there will be a lot of discussion on whether to clip some higher intensities or not, with strong opinions on both sides. Since we are giving you complete control with a separate clipping knob, everyone can set the amount of clipping to their personal preference.

The third control manages the shape of the region between the lower "match nit-for-nit" range and the highest intensities. You will be able to control how smooth or sharp the response curve changes from the "nit-for-nit" range to the upper intensity range. A sharper curve increases the size of the "nit-for-nit" range, but a smoother curve reduces the derivative of the change in slope and should help prevent the changing slope from being noticeable.

We plan to call these controls "Transition" (for transition point), Clip, and Shape, respectively.

We are finishing the 18 GHz output cards very soon (next one to two weeks we think), and have the math completed for the Shaping LUT. I had hoped we would have the Shaping LUT in a release by the end of December, but the 18 GHz output has (as seems to always be the case) taken longer than we hoped. So I am now expecting the Shaping LUT to be in a release likely first half of January.

You can already calibrate for HDR with the Radiance Pro (as Gordon and other have posted). However, the calibration currently must be for a single input maximum brightness level. When the Shaping LUT is released we expect a single calibration will be usable for all possible HDR source maximum brightness levels. This includes a source maximum brightness of 10000 nits, but of course do not expect a 10000 nit source on a 100 nit TV to perform as well as a 1000 nit source on a 250 nit TV.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> I'm having trouble getting an Amazon Fire TV to show up via Lumagen RadiancePro.
> When I plug in a source to an input the input works.
> When I plug in the Amazon Fire TV (powered on and connected to Ethernet) there is only a black screen.
> Once when I unplugged/re-plugged the Amazon Fire TV power I got an "Amazon" message on screen, but then nothing.
> Also, when I hit "ok" on the Lumagen remote to pull up the INFO screen nothing happens.
> If I remove the HDMI from the Amazon Fire TV source from Lumagen the Ok button works.
> 
> I am on an older Firmware. Will update that.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike


The Fire is HDCP 2.2 and so you need a HDCP 2.2 TV/projector if you go through the Pro (except see below). If you have a HDCP 2.2 TV/projector on a HDCP 2.2 input you can contact [email protected] for help with this.

If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/Projector you can get a HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.X down rev box like the HDFury Integral of Key Digital HDFix22. Put this between the Pro and the TV/projector.

If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector you should get an output from the Pro using the Fire if you tell the Pro to only report HDCP 1.X to HDCP 2.2 sources like the Fire. This is in the Menu but the direct command for this is MENU 0819. Make sure to Save after the change.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> Tone Mapping with the Radiance Pro . . .


This is great news Jim, thanks for posting, I am really looking forward to experimenting with this feature when it is released.

Thinking ahead then in terms of calibration, what type of gamma curve will we need to select when calibrating for the Rec2020 3D LUT for use with the Shaping LUT, or would it not matter?


----------



## Mike_WI

*MENU 0819 - Pro to only report HDCP 1.X to HDCP 2.2 sources like the Fire*



jrp said:


> The Fire is HDCP 2.2 and so you need a HDCP 2.2 TV/projector if you go through the Pro (except see below). If you have a HDCP 2.2 TV/projector on a HDCP 2.2 input you can contact [email protected] for help with this.
> 
> If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/Projector you can get a HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.X down rev box like the HDFury Integral of Key Digital HDFix22. Put this between the Pro and the TV/projector.
> 
> If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector you should get an output from the Pro using the Fire if you tell the Pro to only report HDCP 1.X to HDCP 2.2 sources like the Fire. This is in the Menu but the direct command for this is MENU 0819. Make sure to Save after the change.


Thanks Jim.
That worked!
I forgot to save in my rush this morning, but will fix later.
Projector is a JVC RS20, so must be non HDCP 2.2.
That likely needs upgrade along with my Lumagen Radiance Pro and future Oppo UDP-203 (and 18 GHz inputs/output).
Thanks again.

I updated my original post -- http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-35.html#post48956489

Mike


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> We have the 18 GHz output cards working in the lab and are finishing the software. We expect to be shipping these by the end of December. The hardware is "production" and so there is no Beta program for the 18 GHz output.
> 
> The 18 GHz output card has one 18 GHz audio/video output (even output), and one audio only output (odd output). This is due to the architecture of the 18 GHz chip we use as it pertains to HDCP 2.2, and so the odd output will never carry video.
> 
> These will be available for retrofit, or as an upgrade at time of purchase. Please contact your Lumagen dealer for details, or you can email us directly at [email protected].


So, we currently have four processed outputs that can handle both video and audio. If we replace one of the output cards with 18Ghz, we will have 1 18Ghz audio/video output, 2 9 Ghz audio/video outputs and 1 audio only output? Thanks. SJ


----------



## sfisher64

jrp said:


> Tone Mapping with the Radiance Pro is split into two parts, color and intensity. This will work with HDR and non-HDR TVs and projectors.
> 
> The color mapping portion is completed with 3D LUT calibration. Lightspace has the 3D LUT calibration in Beta (last I heard from Steve). I am not sure where Spectracal (Calman) is in their release level but we are working with them on their Radiance Pro version. I understand in talking to Tom of Chromapure that they plan to support this as well. Once released, I believe any of these can work.
> 
> For intensity mapping the Lumagen Radiance Pro will have what we are referring to as a "Shaping LUT." The Pro Shaping LUT maps the source maximum brightness to the TV/Projector maximum brightness. The Shaping LUT dynamically adapts to the source maximum brightness specified in the HDR info frame to the TV/projector maximum brightness entered into the CMS memory, based on three Shaping LUT controls. For the Shaping LUT the maximum brightness of the TV/projector is entered in nits in the appropriate CMS configuration memory, and the three controls will be independently available for each input memory.
> 
> The first of these controls determines the range of the lower intensities where the output level is intended to map nit-for-nit to the source level. For example for a 1000 nit source and a 250 nit TV, you may choose to map the lower 100 nits of source intensity nit-for nit to the TV output with the goal that for this intensity range a 250 nit and a 1000 nit TV would look the essentially the same.
> 
> The next control specifies if some range of the highest input intensities should be clipped. As an example, you might choose to clip the source at perhaps around 750 nits on a 250 nit TV, in the above example, since there is likely not a lot of content in this range and it is three times the brightness of the TV can manage. Many people do not like the idea of clipping and so the default will be to not clip. This does reduce the input to output intensity slope in the higher intensity range. With clipping more of the intensity range can be mapped closer to the source levels. I think there will be a lot of discussion on whether to clip some higher intensities or not, with strong opinions on both sides. Since we are giving you complete control with a separate clipping knob, everyone can set the amount of clipping to their personal preference.
> 
> The third control manages the shape of the region between the lower "match nit-for-nit" range and the highest intensities. You will be able to control how smooth or sharp the response curve changes from the "nit-for-nit" range to the upper intensity range. A sharper curve increases the size of the "nit-for-nit" range, but a smoother curve reduces the derivative of the change in slope and should help prevent the changing slope from being noticeable.
> 
> We plan to call these controls "Transition" (for transition point), Clip, and Shape, respectively.
> 
> We are finishing the 18 GHz output cards very soon (next one to two weeks we think), and have the math completed for the Shaping LUT. I had hoped we would have the Shaping LUT in a release by the end of December, but the 18 GHz output has (as seems to always be the case) taken longer than we hoped. So I am now expecting the Shaping LUT to be in a release likely first half of January.
> 
> You can already calibrate for HDR with the Radiance Pro (as Gordon and other have posted). However, the calibration currently must be for a single input maximum brightness level. When the Shaping LUT is released we expect a single calibration will be usable for all possible HDR source maximum brightness levels. This includes a source maximum brightness of 10000 nits, but of course do not expect a 10000 nit source on a 100 nit TV to perform as well as a 1000 nit source on a 250 nit TV.


The Shaping LUT sounds really great, but how will it interact with the Tone Mapping that the TV/Projector is also doing?


----------



## henrich3

Wookii said:


> Thinking ahead then in terms of calibration, what type of gamma curve will we need to select when calibrating for the Rec2020 3D LUT for use with the Shaping LUT, or would it not matter?


The Shaping LUT will be used to help tone map an HDR input to an SDR output. Since the output will be SDR, presumably folks should choose whatever gamma that they find appealing when viewing other SDR sources (eg. Blu-ray - gamma 2.3). Personal preference...


----------



## henrich3

sfisher64 said:


> The Shaping LUT sounds really great, but how will it interact with the Tone Mapping that the TV/Projector is also doing?


If you convert HDR to SDR in the Pro, then the display won't be doing any tone mapping.


----------



## sfisher64

henrich3 said:


> If you convert HDR to SDR in the Pro, then the display won't be doing any tone mapping.


But if I convert HDR to SDR in the Pro, then won't my HDR TV only show SDR, including no more than 100 nits and Rec709 color?


----------



## henrich3

sfisher64 said:


> But if I convert HDR to SDR in the Pro, then won't my HDR TV only show SDR, including no more than 100 nits and Rec709 color?


HDR & SDR are unrelated to Rec.2020 & Rec.709. The former has to do with luminance range, while the latter is the color space. The Pro can take a UHD/*HDR*/Rec.2020 source and output UHD/*SDR*/Rec.2020 to your display. That's what I do when I want to watch UHD/HDR movies on my pj. Currently the Pro clips the HDR luminance levels if you disable HDR. After the Shaping LUT feature is implemented it'll be able to output a tone mapped SDR signal. That will reduce the clipping artifacts that we deal with now when converting HDR to SDR.

SDR content is graded on a mastering monitor so that white is 100 nits, but that doesn't mean that you have to adhere to that standard when you calibrate your display. Your display may not even get that bright, so white may be set to whatever the max luminance level that your display is capable of accurately displaying, or whatever brightness level that you're comfortable viewing.


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> This is great news Jim, thanks for posting. I am really looking forward to experimenting with this feature when it is released.
> Thinking ahead then in terms of calibration, what type of gamma curve will we need to select when calibrating for the Rec2020 3D LUT for use with the Shaping LUT, or would it not matter?





sfisher64 said:


> The Shaping LUT sounds really great, but how will it interact with the Tone Mapping that the TV/Projector is also doing?


The goal of “tone mapping” is to make a high intensity source (say 1000 nit HDR10) look good on lower brightness projectors/TVs (I will just use "TV" for this post) which could be in the 100 to 150 nit range. Obviously tone mapping cannot make a TV brighter than it is capable of, or have more colors than it is capable of. So said another way tone mapping tries to make the most of the color and intensity range available on the TV, and so show the HDR/Rec2020 image to the best ability of the TV.

To calibrate using the Radiance Pro the response of the Projector needs to be constant. For HDR TVs this means that the Radiance Pro will send a fixed HDR Info-frame to the TV, otherwise the TV would have an unknown response to changes in the HDR Info-frame. For calibrating non-HDR TVs this is a not relevant since it would not respond to the HDR Info-frame in any case.

For a non-HDR TV you need to select the "Yes" options for HDR and Rec 2020 in the Pro Global/Video menu and do a Save. If you have an HDR TV you may still want to set these to Yes as it can help with Power On order. This is especially true since we are seeing some HDR players not re-read the EDID/HDR information when Hotplug is toggled as they are required to do. This way the TV can be off or even disconnected and the Pro will still report back to sources that they can send HDR and Rec 2020.

For HDR TVs the calibration software (as set by the calibrator) tells the Radiance what HDR Info-frame data it should send to the TV when displaying calibration patterns. This data may vary from TV to TV and the Calibrator may need to test multiple sets of HDR Info-frame data to find the optimal response curve in the TV. This HDR Info-Frame data will also be sent to the TV for viewing. For Non-HDR TVs the HDR-Info is not relevant, so it is just making sure the optimal TV mode and settings are selected for HDR source (widest Gamut, brightest mode that had good black levels).

The TV maximum brightness is a key factor in choosing the optimal HDR Info-frame to use and this will also depend on other settings in the TV Menu. This is very similar in a non-HDR TV, but minus the HDR Info-frame.

It is possible for the TV to use one setting for both HDR and non-HDR content. If you do this only one set of pre-calibration color readings are needed. If you choose a separate setup for HDR (the typical case), two sets of pre-calibration readings are needed (Rec 709 and HDR). One suggestion I think Gordon made was to turn off HDR in the Radiance Pro output HDR Info-frame, but leave Rec 2020 enabled (for an HDR TV). So the TV would not be in HDR mode if this is done. This would likely be a good idea if the HDR mode in the TV is way off as long as the Rec2020 only mode can be made bright enough.

The Shaping LUT has output conversion curves for HDR EOTF TV mode and SDR EOTF TV mode. So the CMS memory is set to the appropriate mode (HDR, SDR) and the Shaping LUT modifies the EOTF seen on the TV (even if SDR) matches the EOTF of the source as best it can.

The 1D LUT grayscale is calibrated to the appropriate EOTF curve (HDR, SDR) of the selected CMS mode. So even calibrating to watch HDR material, if you select the SDR CMS mode, you calibrate to the SDR EOTF for grayscale calibration. It is the job of the Shaping LUT to then change the HDR EOTF to the SDR EOTF for display in SDR mode.

The 3D LUT color calibration is done with the selected settings with the EOTF of the selected CMS mode (HDR, SDR) as well.

Then, after the calibration is complete, the CMS "TV Max nits" (we don't have a name for this yet) would be set to the measured max brightness in nits, and the calibrator/user then selects the Shaping LUT control values to personal preference. I have never used “personal preference" in a SDR calibration discussion since there are standards to measure against. And of course if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source, there is a standard for the response. However, there is no current “standard” in tone mapping, say, a 4000 nit source to a 150 nit TV. So, the good judgement of the calibrator, in conjunction with the owner’s preference(s), are used to select Shaping LUT control values.

Calibration has always been a mix of science and art. This is even more true for HDR calibration. We will refine our recommendations on HDR calibration as we get feedback and we learn more on the art of HDR calibration ourselves.


----------



## jrp

sfisher64 said:


> But if I convert HDR to SDR in the Pro, then won't my HDR TV only show SDR, including no more than 100 nits and Rec709 color?


To add to henrich3's response:

Tone mapping does not convert HDR to SDR, but rather maps HDR so it can be displayed on a SDR TV/projector, or a lower brightness, smaller Gamut, HDR TV/projector. It is still HDR - but only to the best ability of the TV/projector.

As mentioned in my previous post, tone mapping (of course) cannot increase the maximum brightness or Gamut of the TV/Projector. So a 1000 nit source cannot looks exactly as intended on a 100 nit TV/projector. However, it can look a lot better than the same source on a SDR 709 UHD Blueray on that same TV/projector by using the larger color Gamut most digital TVs/projectors have (generally significantly larger than Rec709 which is all you would get with a Rec709 disc - assuming a calibrated TV/projector) and using the TV/projector's maximum brightness for highlights.


----------



## Wookii

henrich3 said:


> The Shaping LUT will be used to help tone map an HDR input to an SDR output. Since the output will be SDR, presumably folks should choose whatever gamma that they find appealing when viewing other SDR sources (eg. Blu-ray - gamma 2.3). Personal preference...


I may be misunderstanding your use of the term SDR here Ward (you may be refering to anything displayed on a projector as being inherently SDR because it can't produce the 1000nit+ light levels), but I wouldn't be looking to tone map a HDR input to what I consider an SDR output, I would be looking to tone map a HDR input to a HDR output based the peak luminance (or a target peak luminance with the manual iris applied) of my display. As I understand it both would have very different gamma curves.

So for an SDR calibration I would target a peak luminance of around 16FtL (55nits) with a BT1886 gamma curve.

For a HDR calibration I would target a peak luminance of between 30FtL (100nits) to 44FtL (150nits) (I've yet to experiment fully to determine an exact target preference point), but the gamma curve would presumably (as we currently stand) be S-shaped, the lower part of the curve being similar in shape to BT1886 taking the image from black to reference white, and the upper par of the image rolling off (and eventually clipping) the higher dynamic range content from reference white to the peak luminance of the display, as per Ted's image below from Lightspace:










This gamma curve though is presumably performing its own inherent tone mapping, so in using that in combination with the Lumagen Shaping LUT are we performing the tone mapping twice unnecessarily, or indeed does it not matter given that the Shaping LUT setting will be set largely by eye?

I guess what I was asking Jim - and despite his excellent and detailed posts I'm still not quite understanding the answer - was which target gamma curve should we be using when calibrating for HDR, a straight power gamma (or BT1886 curve) and then use the Shaping LUT to fully tone map to the display from that, or the Lightspace S-shaped gamma curve to determine the reference HDR calibration for the display from the outset, and then use the Shaping LUT to tweak varying incoming HDR mastering levels to bring the image back to the reference calibration.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> The goal of “tone mapping” is to make a high intensity source (say 1000 nit HDR10) look good on lower brightness projectors/TVs (I will just use "TV" for this post) which could be in the 100 to 150 nit range. Obviously tone mapping cannot make a TV brighter than it is capable of, or have more colors than it is capable of. So said another way tone mapping tries to make the most of the color and intensity range available on the TV, and so show the HDR/Rec2020 image to the best ability of the TV.
> 
> To calibrate using the Radiance Pro the response of the Projector needs to be constant. For HDR TVs this means that the Radiance Pro will send a fixed HDR Info-frame to the TV, otherwise the TV would have an unknown response to changes in the HDR Info-frame. For calibrating non-HDR TVs this is a not relevant since it would not respond to the HDR Info-frame in any case.
> 
> For a non-HDR TV you need to select the "Yes" options for HDR and Rec 2020 in the Pro Global/Video menu and do a Save. If you have an HDR TV you may still want to set these to Yes as it can help with Power On order. This is especially true since we are seeing some HDR players not re-read the EDID/HDR information when Hotplug is toggled as they are required to do. This way the TV can be off or even disconnected and the Pro will still report back to sources that they can send HDR and Rec 2020.
> 
> For HDR TVs the calibration software (as set by the calibrator) tells the Radiance what HDR Info-frame data it should send to the TV when displaying calibration patterns. This data may vary from TV to TV and the Calibrator may need to test multiple sets of HDR Info-frame data to find the optimal response curve in the TV. This HDR Info-Frame data will also be sent to the TV for viewing. For Non-HDR TVs the HDR-Info is not relevant, so it is just making sure the optimal TV mode and settings are selected for HDR source (widest Gamut, brightest mode that had good black levels).
> 
> The TV maximum brightness is a key factor in choosing the optimal HDR Info-frame to use and this will also depend on other settings in the TV Menu. This is very similar in a non-HDR TV, but minus the HDR Info-frame.
> 
> It is possible for the TV to use one setting for both HDR and non-HDR content. If you do this only one set of pre-calibration color readings are needed. If you choose a separate setup for HDR (the typical case), two sets of pre-calibration readings are needed (Rec 709 and HDR). One suggestion I think Gordon made was to turn off HDR in the Radiance Pro output HDR Info-frame, but leave Rec 2020 enabled (for an HDR TV). So the TV would not be in HDR mode if this is done. This would likely be a good idea if the HDR mode in the TV is way off as long as the Rec2020 only mode can be made bright enough.
> 
> The Shaping LUT has output conversion curves for HDR EOTF TV mode and SDR EOTF TV mode. So the CMS memory is set to the appropriate mode (HDR, SDR) and the Shaping LUT modifies the EOTF seen on the TV (even if SDR) matches the EOTF of the source as best it can.
> 
> The 1D LUT grayscale is calibrated to the appropriate EOTF curve (HDR, SDR) of the selected CMS mode. So even calibrating to watch HDR material, if you select the SDR CMS mode, you calibrate to the SDR EOTF for grayscale calibration. It is the job of the Shaping LUT to then change the HDR EOTF to the SDR EOTF for display in SDR mode.
> 
> The 3D LUT color calibration is done with the selected settings with the EOTF of the selected CMS mode (HDR, SDR) as well.
> 
> Then, after the calibration is complete, the CMS "TV Max nits" (we don't have a name for this yet) would be set to the measured max brightness in nits, and the calibrator/user then selects the Shaping LUT control values to personal preference. I have never used “personal preference" in a SDR calibration discussion since there are standards to measure against. And of course if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source, there is a standard for the response. However, there is no current “standard” in tone mapping, say, a 4000 nit source to a 150 nit TV. So, the good judgement of the calibrator, in conjunction with the owner’s preference(s), are used to select Shaping LUT control values.
> 
> Calibration has always been a mix of science and art. This is even more true for HDR calibration. We will refine our recommendations on HDR calibration as we get feedback and we learn more on the art of HDR calibration ourselves.


This is great stuff Jim, exactly what projector owners have been hoping for. This sounds really great!!!


----------



## Manni01

Hi Jim,

The shaping LUT sounds great, thanks for all the info (and thanks to Gordon for his very helpful PDF).

This is great news for projector owners.

I have a question though:

Supposing the display has a peak brightness of 100-250nits depending on iris/lamp settings, would the Radiance be able to switch automatically between different LUTs depending on the reported max luminance of the mastering display (usually 1000, 1100 or 4000nits) for each title so that we could adjust the shape of the LUT to the actual peak brightness of the content and optimise brightness for reference white vs how much we'd want to resolve in the highlights?

Or do you think that with such low brightness, clipping at 1500-2500nits in any case would be recommended?

My point is that we might have different iris setting for a title mastered to 1000nits (in which case, we could clip content at 1000nits and get a lower black floor with a peak white at 100nits, low lamp, iris -7) and a title mastered to 4000nits (we could clip content at 2500nits with a higher black floor, high lamp, iris fully open).

I know that we JVC owners would be getting the DI back, but there is no free lunch and the more open the manual iris, the more DI artifacts, even if theoretically we get the same fade to black.

Not sure if having 2-3 LUTs is worth the hassle vs a single LUT clipping content at 1500nits with a peak white at 150nits and the iris almost fully open in low lamp), just wondering what your thoughts are.


----------



## henrich3

Wookii said:


> I may be misunderstanding your use of the term SDR here Ward (you may be refering to anything displayed on a projector as being inherently SDR because it can't produce the 1000nit+ light levels), but I wouldn't be looking to tone map a HDR input to what I consider an SDR output, I would be looking to tone map a HDR input to a HDR output based the peak luminance (or a target peak luminance with the manual iris applied) of my display. As I understand it both would have very different gamma curves.
> 
> So for an SDR calibration I would target a peak luminance of around 16FtL (55nits) with a BT1886 gamma curve.
> 
> For a HDR calibration I would target a peak luminance of between 30FtL (100nits) to 44FtL (150nits) (I've yet to experiment fully to determine an exact target preference point), but the gamma curve would presumably (as we currently stand) be S-shaped, the lower part of the curve being similar in shape to BT1886 taking the image from black to reference white, and the upper par of the image rolling off (and eventually clipping) the higher dynamic range content from reference white to the peak luminance of the display, as per Ted's image below from Lightspace:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This gamma curve though is presumably performing its own inherent tone mapping, so in using that in combination with the Lumagen Shaping LUT are we performing the tone mapping twice unnecessarily, or indeed does it not matter given that the Shaping LUT setting will be set largely by eye?
> 
> I guess what I was asking Jim - and despite his excellent and detailed posts I'm still not quite understanding the answer - was which target gamma curve should we be using when calibrating for HDR, a straight power gamma (or BT1886 curve) and then use the Shaping LUT to fully tone map to the display from that, or the Lightspace S-shaped gamma curve to determine the reference HDR calibration for the display from the outset, and then use the Shaping LUT to tweak varying incoming HDR mastering levels to bring the image back to the reference calibration.


My quest for a tone mapped HDR to SDR solution was driven by my projector's (RS600) lousy HDR implementation, especially with regards to its disabled auto-iris when it's in HDR mode. I think of my pj as being in SDR mode whenever the HDR flag is not being sent to it. My Pro is configured to disable HDR. If I play a UHD Blu-ray, my projector's Info screen shows the input signal as being SDR, so that, to me, is SDR, regardless of what's on the shiny disc. In this mode my pj's auto-iris is fully functional and the image is vastly better with those famous JVC "_Brutal Contrast Monster_" blacks. 

I assume that the Shaping LUT will work with the HDR flag disabled. If that's the case, my pj will just use a standard SDR gamma like "2.3", rather than the "Gamma D" option that's normally used by JVCs for HDR content. Since there's no real standard for tone mapping a 4000 nit source to fit the luminance of a 150 nit pj, I assume that after calibration one would just play a few HDR movies and twiddle the Shaping LUT controls to taste...


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> The shaping LUT sounds great, thanks for all the info (and thanks to Gordon for his very helpful PDF).
> 
> This is great news for projector owners.
> 
> I have a question though:
> 
> Supposing the display has a peak brightness of 100-250nits depending on iris/lamp settings, would the Radiance be able to switch automatically between different LUTs depending on the reported max luminance of the mastering display (usually 1000, 1100 or 4000nits) for each title so that we could adjust the shape of the LUT to the actual peak brightness of the content and optimise brightness for reference white vs how much we'd want to resolve in the highlights?
> 
> Or do you think that with such low brightness, clipping at 1500-2500nits in any case would be recommended?
> 
> My point is that we might have different iris setting for a title mastered to 1000nits (in which case, we could clip content at 1000nits and get a lower black floor with a peak white at 100nits, low lamp, iris -7) and a title mastered to 4000nits (we could clip content at 2500nits with a higher black floor, high lamp, iris fully open).
> 
> I know that we JVC owners would be getting the DI back, but there is no free lunch and the more open the manual iris, the more DI artifacts, even if theoretically we get the same fade to black.
> 
> Not sure if having 2-3 LUTs is worth the hassle vs a single LUT clipping content at 1500nits with a peak white at 150nits and the iris almost fully open in low lamp), just wondering what your thoughts are.


Allow me specifically discuss projectors:

No projector will have much more than perhaps 200 nits of light output with current technology, and most are in the 100 to 150 nits range. So, for calibration you will (leaving out some details):

1) For HDR, set the projector to maximum brightness that still has a good black level. In my opinion the black level is still the most important criteria. Bad blacks will wash out any image. So I believe you would choose to give up some brightness if necessary to maintain a good black level. This will then be the projector brightness setting for all possible HDR mastering max brightness levels.

2) Calibrate color Gamut using the Radiance Pro 3D LUT to the Rec2020 color space to the best ability of the projector. Only one 3D LUT is needed for HDR. You need to have the projector settings reasonable before this step. You will use the HDR EOTF if the projector, and Radiance Pro CMS memory, are in HDR mode. If they are in SDR mode, you use the Rec 709 EOTF. If the CMS output is set to SDR for an HDR source, the Shaping LUT deals with mapping the HDR EOTF so the HDR EOTF is reproduced as well as possible on the projector.

3) Program the maximum projector brightness in nits in the selected CMS memory.

4) Adjust the Shaping LUT parameters to your preference. There is no standard for this mapping. So we have the three parameters to allow the user maximum flexibility to tune the response curve.

The Shaping LUT is designed to adjust the intensity response curve based on the source maximum brightness and taking into account the projector max brightness and the Shaping LUT Transition, Clamp, and Shape parameters. It uses the Mastering Max Brightness in the HDR Infoframe to dynamically adjust the luminance response curve. We made this architectural decision to be ready for “HDR Dynamic Info-frames.”

It remains to be seen (no pun intended) if the Shaping LUT does this function well enough that everyone is happy using the same parameters for different source max brightness levels. If needed, we will work to tune the Shaping LUT response so changes in the source max level to minimize the need to fiddle with parameters.

We know some people will want to fiddle with the Shaping LUT controls no matter how well we manage this task. We will have the ability to have different Shaping LUT parameters for each memory (MEMA – MEMD). We will likely use the “left arrow” remote key to bring up the Shaping LUT parameters so people can tweak. We may even add more functionality for you to tune the response to various mastering levels.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> 2) Calibrate color Gamut using the Radiance Pro 3D LUT to the Rec2020 color space to the best ability of the projector. Only one 3D LUT is needed for HDR. You need to have the projector settings reasonable before this step. You will use the HDR EOTF if the projector, and Radiance Pro CMS memory, are in HDR mode. If they are in SDR mode, you use the Rec 709 EOTF. If the CMS output is set to SDR for an HDR source, the Shaping LUT deals with mapping the HDR EOTF so the HDR EOTF is reproduced as well as possible on the projector.


Gamma curve is usually baked in with the creation of the 3D LUT these days, so what gamma curve will the Pro assume is being used for the Rec2020 3D LUT cube? In other words, what gamma curve will we calibrate the Rec2020 3D LUT with so that the Pro's Shaping LUT then works correctly? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

[EDIT] OK, I misread. So, it seems we first decide whether we are only outputting in HDR or SDR mode (most likely SDR mode), and then, depending on that choice, we create either an SDR/2020/BT.1886 3D LUT or an HDR/2020/PQ for the Pro to work its magic on?


----------



## Manni01

Thanks for taking the time to answer with so much detail Jim, and for specifically discussing projectors.



jrp said:


> Allow me specifically discuss projectors:
> No projector will have much more than perhaps 200 nits of light output with current technology, and most are in the 100 to 150 nits range. So, for
> calibration you will (leaving out some details):


 It depends on the screen size 

With my puny Carada BW 88" diag 16/9 at mid throw, I get up to 250nits calibrated to D65 in high lamp iris full open with a new lamp on my RS500. At least 220nits with the BT2020 filter on. That comes with a raised black floor, but with the DI it's not as bad as without. 100-150nits is more reasonable to keep a better native black floor / higher native on/off.



jrp said:


> 1) For HDR, set the projector to maximum brightness that still has a good black level. In my opinion the black level is still the most important criteria. Bad blacks will wash out any image. So I believe you would choose to give up some brightness if necessary to maintain a good black level. This will then be the projector brightness setting for all possible HDR mastering max brightness levels.


 I agree in principle, but the point is that we might not want to make the same compromise for all content, especially if we can reach peak brightness (say 220-250) and get a functional DI. For example, with a dark thriller or sci-fi movie, I will indeed want to keep a decent black floor, so I would want to keep the iris at -7 or so in low lamp. In that case, peak brightness in HDR is 100nits and I'll want to clip content at 1000nits, especially if that's what's in the content anyway (content mastered at 1000 or 1100nits). But if I'm watching a very bright movie mastered with a max luminance of 4000nits on the display and a peak content luminance of 2500nits (as per MaxCLL), or if watching sports on UHDTV in HDR, I might want to forgo about the black floor and decide to privilege ANSI contrast (which raises as you open the iris on the JVCs, unlike the on/off contrast that drops) and HDR highlights, and use iris fully open, high lamp, peak brightness of 250nits or so and clipping content at 2500nits. Just examples! So different use cases irrespective of the way the content is mastered.



jrp said:


> 2) Calibrate color Gamut using the Radiance Pro 3D LUT to the Rec2020 color space to the best ability of the projector. Only one 3D LUT is needed for HDR. You need to have the projector settings reasonable before this step. You will use the HDR EOTF if the projector, and Radiance Pro CMS memory, are in HDR mode. If they are in SDR mode, you use the Rec 709 EOTF. If the CMS output is set to SDR for an HDR source, the Shaping LUT deals with mapping the HDR EOTF so the HDR EOTF is reproduced as well as possible on the projector.


Thanks, I had got this from the previous posts and Gordon's PDF, but using the Radiance would only be meaningful if using SDR on the display so we can get the DI back and NOT rely on JVC's vague ST2084 implementation in Gamma D, which by the way raises the black floor if you use their recommended setting of +5 for dark gamma (anything above +3 raises the black floor). The idea is to get the best possible black floor and make the DI functional again. Then see above for reasons why more than one 3D LUT might be relevant for HDR content.



jrp said:


> 3) Program the maximum projector brightness in nits in the selected CMS memory.


That's one of the best parts!



jrp said:


> 4) Adjust the Shaping LUT parameters to your preference. There is no standard for this mapping. So we have the three parameters to allow the user maximum flexibility to tune the response curve.


Yes, got that from earlier posts too.



jrp said:


> The Shaping LUT is designed to adjust the intensity response curve based on the source maximum brightness and taking into account the projector max brightness and the Shaping LUT Transition, Clamp, and Shape parameters. It uses the Mastering Max Brightness in the HDR Infoframe to dynamically adjust the luminance response curve. We made this architectural decision to be ready for “HDR Dynamic Info-frames.”


That I missed, thank you. So this means that when dynamic metadata is offered in content, you'll be able to deal with it. But my understanding was that this evolution of HDR10 would need HDMI 2.1. Does that mean that the Radiance will support HDMI 2.1 with a f/w upgrade, or will it be another hardware upgrade? Or doesn it mean that we will not need HDMI 2.1 compatibility at all (except maybe in the source and devices before the Radiance)? As the MaxFALL value is already sent (even if meaningless at the moment as I think it's an average for the whole movie instead of a frame average), maybe HDMI 2.1 is only relevant for the display, in which case if the Radiance can interpret the dynamic metadata correctly it will make any display HDMI 2.1 compatible (from an HDR implementation point of view).



jrp said:


> It remains to be seen (no pun intended) if the Shaping LUT does this function well enough that everyone is happy using the same parameters for different source max brightness levels. If needed, we will work to tune the Shaping LUT response so changes in the source max level to minimize the need to fiddle with parameters.


That was the main question I was asking. Based on the two examples above, please could you explain how you would deal with the current implementation with the need to find the best compromise in black floor and highlights detail depending on the type of content, not only on the way it was mastered? As we need two different presets in the projectors to move from low lamp / iris -7 to high lamp iris fully open, I don't see how we can deal with such an adjustment without having two different LUTs for HDR content. 



jrp said:


> We know some people will want to fiddle with the Shaping LUT controls no matter how well we manage this task. We will have the ability to have different Shaping LUT parameters for each memory (MEMA – MEMD). We will likely use the “left arrow” remote key to bring up the Shaping LUT parameters so people can tweak. We may even add more functionality for you to tune the response to various mastering levels.


Yes, I'm one of these . I guess this would be the answer to the problem, using Mem A-B, provided we don't need these for something else. This is why I was asking if there could be an automatic change of LUT/sets of parameters according to the source maximum brightness as reported by MaxCLL, as MaxFALL doesn't really mean anything until we get dynamic metadata in the next implementation of HDR10 (if I understand each of these properly). But it looks like the current implementation of the shaping LUT takes care of this already, so we'll be left with manual switching between HDR LUT depending on case use.

Thanks again for providing what might be better than Dolby Vision for us projector owners 

Talking of which, as there is mention of DV titles being released in the new year, what's the latest on possible DV support in the Radiance Pro, and would such support work with a non-DV projector, provided the necessary variables (mainly peak brightness) are read/entered?


----------



## kaotikr1

I for one will be happy when Manni01 gets a Lumagen Pro as I appreciate his attention to detail and hopefully look forward to his input.


----------



## Mark_H

This Lumagen Shaping LUT could turn out to be THE killer feature on the Pro...


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer with so much detail Jim, and for specifically discussing projectors.
> 
> It depends on the screen size
> 
> With my puny Carada BW 88" diag 16/9 at mid throw, I get up to 250nits calibrated to D65 in high lamp iris full open with a new lamp on my RS500. At least 220nits with the BT2020 filter on. That comes with a raised black floor, but with the DI it's not as bad as without. 100-150nits is more reasonable to keep a better native black floor / higher native on/off.


You have confirmed my point about projector brightness. Depending on screen size, and projector brightness, you can get more brightness but then you likely have issues with black.

Your usable 100 to 150 nits is what I was referencing as typical.



Manni01 said:


> I agree in principle, but the point is that we might not want to make the same compromise for all content, ...


Of course and why we will allow you to use memories and have a quick access to the Shaping LUT controls. See below for more on this.



Manni01 said:


> Thanks, I had got this from the previous posts and Gordon's PDF, but using the Radiance would only be meaningful if using SDR on the display so we can get the DI back and NOT rely on JVC's vague ST2084 implementation ....


I think your issue of "only SDR" is specific to your projector. I think sometimes it will be best to have the Pro output HDR in HDR mode and sometimes it will be best to have the Pro output HDR in SDR mode. If you can get enough brightness out of SDR mode then, as mentioned, it may actually be optimal to put the Pro CMS in SDR output mode to prevent the projector from messing up in HDR mode.



Manni01 said:


> So this means that when dynamic metadata is offered in content, you'll be able to deal with it. But my understanding was that this evolution of HDR10 would need HDMI 2.1. Does that mean that the Radiance will support HDMI 2.1 with a f/w upgrade...


I believe we should be able to support the HDMI 2.1 with a firmware upgrade. 



Manni01 said:


> please could you explain how you would deal with the current implementation with the need to find the best compromise in black floor and highlights detail depending on the type of content, not only on the way it was mastered? ...


Rec 2020 Gamut calibration and the intensity mapping done by the Shaping LUT are two separate processes. I see little reason to need multiple 3D LUTs for the Rec2020 color space with HDR content, even as the mastering level changes, or the content type changes. For color there are specific targets to hit and these do not change based on the content.

However, people may well want to vary the control parameters for the Shaping LUT for different mastering levels and different type of content. This is similar to using a lower Gamma for sports to punch up the look.

As I mentioned (and you referenced), we will have multiple memories for multiple Shaping LUT setups, and quick access to the Shaping LUT menu so you can manually change the intensity response curve for differing content types. We may even add (at some point in the future), Shaping LUT parameters adjustments based on the mastering level. I believe this allows you the control you are asking for.

However, I see no way that we could infer the "content type" and make changes based on some preference you might have. So you will need to manually make the changes if you are wanting a "sports" profile verses a "dark movie" profile, perhaps by selecting a different configuration memory.



Manni01 said:


> Yes, I'm one of these . I guess this would be the answer to the problem, using Mem A-B, provided we don't need these for something else. This is why I was asking if there could be an automatic change of LUT/sets of parameters according to the source maximum brightness as reported by MaxCLL, as MaxFALL doesn't really mean anything until we get dynamic metadata in the next implementation of HDR10 (if I understand each of these properly). But it looks like the current implementation of the shaping LUT takes care of this already, so we'll be left with manual switching between HDR LUT depending on case use.


The first implementation will have fixed controls for the Shaping LUT per memory. As mentioned, the Shaping LUT attempts to internally adjust to changes in the source mastering level in a way that gives good results as the mastering level changes.

The point I made late in my last post was that we know our choices for this adaptation may not satisfy everyone. So later we will consider enhancing the Shaping LUT so you might, for example, have Shaping LUT control settings specific to multiple source mastering levels points (say 1000, 4000, 10000 nits, and perhaps more), and then the Pro could interpolate between your selected preferences for these different mastering level changes.



Manni01 said:


> Thanks again for providing what might be better than Dolby Vision for us projector owners


DV has a base level for projectors, which I think is in the 120 nit range. Then the HDR highlights are encoded as a second, lower-resolution, overlay on top of the base image. So for projectors you get just the base level of what the producers put on the disc with no real user control (SDR Rec2020 movie would be the equivalent of this). A reasonable choice for professional cinemas of course.

For DV using projectors, and SDR Rec 2020, highlights would be missing or significantly muted. Not optimal if you happen to have a home theater with a brighter than targeted projector and want highlights.

DV is a a closed specification, and HDR10 is an open standard. This is Beta verses VHS all over again. It will be interesting to see what happens.



Manni01 said:


> Talking of which, as there is mention of DV titles being released in the new year, what's the latest on possible DV support in the Radiance Pro ...?


We would be interested, but so far are not getting anywhere with Dolby.


----------



## Manni01

Thanks for all the details Jim.

Yes DV has a standard for cinema projectors, but the content is mastered specifically for that (48nits for reference white, same as SDR, and up to 108nits for the highlights).

This won't help us consumer projector owners, because consumer content will never be mastered for the Dolby cinema standard, it's too much of a niche of a niche (projectors vs mainstream LED/OLED displays, we don't stand a chance). We'll only ever get HDR content mastered to 1000+ nits, for panels in a bright living room.

This is why what the Radiance Pro is offering with the shaping LUT is interesting. 

Sad but not surprising that Dolby isn't very receptive.



jrp said:


> The point I made late in my last post was that we know our choices for this adaptation may not satisfy everyone. So later we will consider enhancing the Shaping LUT so you might, for example, have Shaping LUT control settings specific to multiple source mastering levels points (say 1000, 4000, 10000 nits, and perhaps more), *and then the Pro could interpolate between your selected preferences for these different mastering level changes*.


I like that idea very much. I'll be looking closely at developments. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Official OPPO UDP-203 Owner's Thread info on Radiance "24.00"*

FYI from post in "Official OPPO UDP-203 Owner's Thread" thread by sfm:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...o-udp-203-owner-s-thread-76.html#post49102585



> I reported earlier of an issue with my Lumagen Radiance reporting "24.00" (accompanied by the occasional "stutter" for the lack of a better term) when the 203 is playing any 23.976 source (whereas the Radiance would indicate, using the same source material, "23.98" with the Oppo 93 and no stutter observed)... I reported this to Oppo yesterday and today received a beta firmware (1212b) and after installation the Radiance is now indicating "23.98" from the 203... watched a movie and observed no "stutters"... seems to be working fine now.


----------



## stanger89

Mark_H said:


> This Lumagen Shaping LUT could turn out to be THE killer feature on the Pro...


Indeed, this is what has me "seriously" looking into a Pro again. Last year, when I decided to forego it (in addition to funds not being available  ), I thought I didn't really need a Radiance anymore, since sources with "source direct" output are rapidly disappearing, pretty much everything outputs 1080p, and projectors (especially JVC) have pretty good internal calibration capabilities.

But then this last year the whole HDR thing has blown up. It's pretty clear JVC doesn't have the talent or interest (don't know which, maybe both) to handle HDR well, the 2015 models are basically crippled, and it sounds like the 2017 models are no change (except for changing some defaults). What Jim describes with the Shaping LUT is pretty much exactly what I was expecting to be built into all HDR capable projectors. Enter measured peak white nits into the system, and it does it's best to map the content to that. Perhaps with some settings to tweak how that's done. But it doesn't look like any projectors are going to do that anytime soon (I'm not even sure the RS4500 or VW5000 can do that). So here I am again....

I do have one question. For those of us with "dumb" projectors like the JVC, which don't automatically switch to the correct gamut, can the pro map Rec.709 input to Rec.2020 output? I assume that's basically a different 3D LUT and the Radiance picks the right one based on input infoframe?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

stranger

Yes you can have a lut that would use the widest colourspace of the JVC and map it to REC709 and assign that to all REC709 incoming signal types...and then do a REC2020 one and assign it to REC2020 incoming signal types. So it works as you are describing and hoping for.


----------



## stanger89

Gordon Fraser said:


> stranger
> 
> Yes you can have a lut that would use the widest colourspace of the JVC and map it to REC709 and assign that to all REC709 incoming signal types...and then do a REC2020 one and assign it to REC2020 incoming signal types. So it works as you are describing and hoping for.


I thought so, since that's how my XE works. Unfortunately that makes my credit card want to run and hide for safety....


----------



## AidenL

Seems to be a lot of good reasons to buy a Lumagen Pro these days! Especially for projector owners.


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> stranger
> 
> Yes you can have a lut that would use the widest colourspace of the JVC and map it to REC709 and assign that to all REC709 incoming signal types...and then do a REC2020 one and assign it to REC2020 incoming signal types. So it works as you are describing and hoping for.


Any feedback on what color space is the widest on the JVC or if not, how to find that out? I believe you indicated to use the profiler primaries in lightspace to look for this? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Mojogypson

AidenL said:


> Seems to be a lot of good reasons to buy a Lumagen Pro these days! Especially for projector owners.


Curious:
Would there also be a huge benefit to adding the lumagen to my soon to be delivered Oled G6?


----------



## Eventidal

Losing one Video Out for the 18Ghz Board output is very bad. My4242 has only 2 Outputs and now I will be stuck with one Output and thus losing my external Darbee video chain. At least it would be nice if you could move the Darbee to the end of the processing chain now.


----------



## AidenL

Mojogypson said:


> Curious:
> Would there also be a huge benefit to adding the lumagen to my soon to be delivered Oled G6?


I don't know, some greater experts than me on here might chip in, sorry 

Id be referring to the benefits it would give on a front projection setup.


----------



## Mark_H

Mojogypson said:


> Curious:
> Would there also be a huge benefit to adding the lumagen to my soon to be delivered Oled G6?


I use a Pro with my B6

Pros: 

A *PERFECT* Rec709 3D LUT from 0 to 100 IRE. True reference quality image. And no crushed blacks. Needs software/hardware to do calibration of course.
Darbee for non-UHD sources (fingers crossed for a UHD Darbee update in the future)
More HDMI inputs than the TV has.
Ability to route the audio to a soundbar BEFORE the TV delays it, and be able to fix lipsync issues with external processors.
Any of the other Pro options that you'd find useful.

Cons: 

The fan: in my living room, the Pro is by far the noisiest component, which is mainly because every other component is silent, and it is a distraction at times.
Video deinterlacing needs some work, which has been promised. I see a lot of artefacts with my SKY 1080i TV feed, which is my primary TV source.
Smart TV apps do not benefit, as they do not route through the Pro, so there can be an inconsistency in display quality here. Not that I use the Smart TV apps.
Audio output HDMI only, so you (*I*) need a converter box for my soundbar.
Requires remote control - I use Logitech Harmony remote to automate input switching etc.

For me, the Pros far outweigh Cons, and I wouldn't be without the Pro driving my TV.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fan*



Mark_H said:


> I use a Pro with my B6
> 
> Pros:
> 
> A *PERFECT* Rec709 3D LUT from 0 to 100 IRE. True reference quality image. And no crushed blacks. Needs software/hardware to do calibration of course.
> Darbee for non-UHD sources (fingers crossed for a UHD Darbee update in the future)
> More HDMI inputs than the TV has.
> Ability to route the audio to a soundbar BEFORE the TV delays it, and be able to fix lipsync issues with external processors.
> Any of the other Pro options that you'd find useful.
> 
> Cons:
> 
> *The fan: in my living room, the Pro is by far the noisiest component, which is mainly because every other component is silent, and it is a distraction at times.*
> Video deinterlacing needs some work, which has been promised. I see a lot of artefacts with my SKY 1080i TV feed, which is my primary TV source.
> Smart TV apps do not benefit, as they do not route through the Pro, so there can be an inconsistency in display quality here. Not that I use the Smart TV apps.
> Audio output HDMI only, so you (*I*) need a converter box for my soundbar.
> Requires remote control - I use Logitech Harmony remote to automate input switching etc.
> 
> For me, the Pros far outweigh Cons, and I wouldn't be without the Pro driving my TV.


What is your fan setting?


----------



## Mark_H

Pro fan is now on an auto setting. It ramps up and down depending on monitored temperature.

Normally, mine is running at 2. Sometimes, eg 4K material it bumps up higher.


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> I'll work on one next. Wont charge for it. Thanks!


I could not find any documentation to show how to create a LUT in lightspace using a Lumagen. I'm starting with just normal SDR. My system is connected as I'm able to use the profiler. Just nothing with basic Step 1, Step 2.... Guess I'm used to Calman workflows. Likely once you have done one of these, it will be more straightforward. Please include the basics in the guide for SDR and then moving to your HDR info. Anyone else able to point me in the right direction or have some info for basic LUT creation using Lightspace and a Lumagen? The interface is not simple for me. Lol. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fan*



Mark_H said:


> Pro fan is now on an auto setting. It ramps up and down depending on monitored temperature.
> 
> Normally, mine is running at 2. Sometimes, eg 4K material it bumps up higher.


May be a dumb question, but you are running on the newest firmware, right?



> Alpha 060315- *Fan is now quiet*. Adds 4k60/4k50 output mode in output setup menu as well as a direct commands (menu 029 & menu 025 respectively). Fix for 1080i input rate detection. Fix for incorrect output mute. Added direct code, "menu 0541" to toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4k). Added "menu 0546" to toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. These are temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware



Mike


----------



## Mike_WI

*When do the FW updates stop becoming "Beta"?*

@jrp

Just looking at FW updates:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

1st is alpha:


> Alpha 060315- Fan is now quiet. Adds 4k60/4k50 output mode in output setup menu as well as a direct commands (menu 029 & menu 025 respectively). Fix for 1080i input rate detection. Fix for incorrect output mute. Added direct code, "menu 0541" to toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4k). Added "menu 0546" to toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. These are temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


The rest are Beta.
When do the FW updates stop becoming "Beta"?

Happy holidays all,

Mike


----------



## MJV29

SJHT said:


> Gordon Fraser said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll work on one next. Wont charge for it. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I could not find any documentation to show how to create a LUT in lightspace using a Lumagen. I'm starting with just normal SDR. My system is connected as I'm able to use the profiler. Just nothing with basic Step 1, Step 2.... Guess I'm used to Calman workflows. Likely once you have done one of these, it will be more straightforward. Please include the basics in the guide for SDR and then moving to your HDR info. Anyone else able to point me in the right direction or have some info for basic LUT creation using Lightspace and a Lumagen? The interface is not simple for me. Lol. Thanks. SJ
Click to expand...


I'm sure Gordon is working on one and I want to say thanks to him! I have looked everywhere online for a document on how to make Luts but had no luck. I'm sure I could make them but would they be right is the question. Lol I am in the same boat as you on where to start and want to get everything out of a calibration as possible. That's why we have the pro's in the first place.


----------



## SJHT

MJV29 said:


> I'm sure Gordon is working on one and I want to say thanks to him! I have looked everywhere online for a document on how to make Luts but had no luck. I'm sure I could make them but would they be right is the question. Lol I am in the same boat as you on where to start and want to get everything out of a calibration as possible. That's why we have the pro's in the first place.


Yeah the tool is surely more designed for pros, I'm used to Calman and always had great results with basic calibration including the creation of 3D LUTs. Bet they would sell more copies of the Lightspace software if they had some straightforward guides to at least get you started. There is a Lumagen guide but it's almost an add on assuming you are an expert to start with. Go Gordon and thanks. SJ


----------



## SJHT

Just found a dummies guide on the Lightspace website! Maybe that will help me. Lol. SJ


----------



## giftedmd

SJHT said:


> Just found a dummies guide on the Lightspace website! Maybe that will help me. Lol. SJ


That guide is still more of a general principles than a step by step. Lightspace has more of an open workflow which is why it is more for pros. But that's what I read and with a lot of trial and error I was able to get the process down and have made 3d luts for SDR rec 709 and HDR rec 2020 using lightspace and the radiance pro. And I had never done any calibration of any kind before. Good luck! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Guys I am sorry.

As i am sure you know this time of the year is insane for those of us who work in this industry. Everyone wants stuff done by the holidays. I have not had a single day off in over 2 months.....i have one day to buy presents this week and that's it until new year. I think i may have something stored on my laptop in an email I sent someone a year ago but i'd rather do this properly but i am away from home now until after holidays so i't going to be hard to do this guide before January.

LightSpace is nothing like Calman or Chromapure in it's operation and layout so for those of us who used them, and indeed previous calibration tools like Milori's and Progressive Labs, it's a new experience. BUT it is worth persevering, imho.


----------



## MJV29

Gordon Fraser said:


> Guys I am sorry.
> 
> As i am sure you know this time of the year is insane for those of us who work in this industry. Everyone wants stuff done by the holidays. I have not had a single day off in over 2 months.....i have one day to buy presents this week and that's it until new year. I think i may have something stored on my laptop in an email I sent someone a year ago but i'd rather do this properly but i am away from home now until after holidays so i't going to be hard to do this guide before January.
> 
> LightSpace is nothing like Calman or Chromapure in it's operation and layout so for those of us who used them, and indeed previous calibration tools like Milori's and Progressive Labs, it's a new experience. BUT it is worth persevering, imho.


I totally understand Gordon! Just wanted to say thanks for helping us newbies out with all of this! I can definitely wait on your step by step document.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> ... When do the FW updates stop becoming "Beta"?



We had actually hoped to be able to call releases "production" before now. However, things got in our way. These include a new set of HDMI bugs in the new HDMI 2.0 chips we use, 18 GHz, and HDR.


We are now in pretty good shape with the HDMI 2.0 chips including the 18 GHz chips. The 18 GHz I/O design is complete, and software is done for the inputs and a couple days away for the output.


HDR has been a reasonable amount of work, but the main remaining feature is the "Shaping LUT" (which we may rename for its release) is progressing. As I have been posting we are (hopefully) within a month of the Shaping LUT software release.


Before we declare victory and call releases production, we have some other additions to make. These include pipeline improvements, like a bit more precision (currently precision is already slightly better than the Radiance 2143 pipeline). For the 444X units, we would like the PiP/PoP to be included. We would also like to have at least some of the edge enhancement and noise reduction features in the software before we call it production.


So while I can't say exactly when we might do the first "production software" release, I am hopeful it will be before the end of 2017 Q2. And yes, this will be our longest Beta period by a large margin. Fortunately we feel (and the feedback confirms) the Radiance Pro is working very well in its current software state. So calling releases "Beta" has not really been an issue.

=========================================== 

On behalf of Lumagen I would like to wish everyone a happy holiday season and thank everyone for the support and positive feedback on the Radiance Pro (and bug report too).


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> We had actually hoped to be able to call releases "production" before now. However, things got in our way. These include a new set of HDMI bugs in the new HDMI 2.0 chips we use, 18 GHz, and HDR.
> 
> 
> We are now in pretty good shape with the HDMI 2.0 chips including the 18 GHz chips. The 18 GHz I/O design is complete, and software is done for the inputs and a couple days away for the output.
> 
> 
> HDR has been a reasonable amount of work, but the main remaining feature is the "Shaping LUT" (which we may rename for its release) is progressing. As I have been posting we are (hopefully) within a month of the Shaping LUT software release.
> 
> 
> Before we declare victory and call releases production, we have some other additions to make. These include pipeline improvements, like a bit more precision (currently precision is already slightly better than the Radiance 2143 pipeline). For the 444X units, we would like the PiP/PoP to be included. We would also like to have at least some of the edge enhancement and noise reduction features in the software before we call it production.
> 
> 
> So while I can't say exactly when we might do the first "production software" release, I am hopeful it will be before the end of 2017 Q2. And yes, this will be our longest Beta period by a large margin. Fortunately we feel (and the feedback confirms) the Radiance Pro is working very well in its current software state. So calling releases "Beta" has not really been an issue.
> 
> ===========================================
> 
> On behalf of Lumagen I would like to wish everyone a happy holiday season and thank everyone for the support and positive feedback on the Radiance Pro (and bug report too).


Thanks. Great to hear all of that.
Happy holidays to you and crew at Lumagen.

Mike


----------



## Mark_H

Mike_WI said:


> Alpha 060315- Fan is now quiet.
> Mike


Thanks for that, Mike. I'll roll all the way back to 060315, then 

I appreciate you are just trying to help, but the fact is that Pro has a fan, and it is audible. Something to consider if you plan to use one.


----------



## ARROW-AV

Mark_H said:


> ...the fact is that Pro has a fan, and it is audible. Something to consider if you plan to use one.


Useful to know, such that appropriate measures can be taken in rack design to address this








.


----------



## ARROW-AV

jrp said:


> We had actually hoped to be able to call releases "production" before now. However, things got in our way. These include a new set of HDMI bugs in the new HDMI 2.0 chips we use, 18 GHz, and HDR...We are now in pretty good shape with the HDMI 2.0 chips including the 18 GHz chips. The 18 GHz I/O design is complete, and software is done for the inputs and a couple days away for the output... [edited for brevity]


Jim, if only all audiovisual brands/manufacturers were so fastidious with respect to their products' beta phases an awful lot of headaches would be avoided or at the very least minimized regarding the first and even second generation production units... I won't name names but I can think of more than a few major well-known brands, including flagship audiovisual products, which should be ashamed of themselves regarding the number and severity of issues and/or malfunctions that have afflicted the initial production units, which could have been so easily avoided if only they were as thorough as you guys have been and are being in this regard with respect to the Lumagen PRO. Absolutely brilliant. 



Gordon Fraser said:


> Guys I am sorry.
> 
> As i am sure you know this time of the year is insane for those of us who work in this industry. Everyone wants stuff done by the holidays. I have not had a single day off in over 2 months.....i have one day to buy presents this week and that's it until new year. I think i may have something stored on my laptop in an email I sent someone a year ago but i'd rather do this properly but i am away from home now until after holidays so i't going to be hard to do this guide before January...


This is why I have not come knocking on your door just yet Gordon... I figured you might be a bit busy  

Where, despite the fact I have yet to load up my shopping trolley and clear out your entire stock of Lumagen Radiance PROs I don't think I am the only one who is grateful for all your and Jim Peterson's / Lumagen's hard work and support that you are providing with respect to the Lumagen PRO... especially given as of right now it is a unique product that not only excels in more ways than one, but also I personally consider to be an essential component in any mid-to-high-end home theater / cinema design and build, especially given it's currently the only economically viable solution to resolving the significantly variable grading/tone mapping of consumer / domestic HDR video content. You are all doing an outstanding job and your work in this regard is absolutely invaluable to the whole global domestic/consumer audiovisual industry; and I don't think that we are the only ones to be thinking this. But Christmas is only once per year and so put your family and friends first before us audiovisual nerds, because we can wait a couple of days for your next round of ongoing support and assistance on here  
If we don't speak before have a great Christmas and New Year and I will be knocking on your door after the New Year once things quieten down a bit and shortly following my return from CES 2017








.


----------



## MJV29

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


----------



## Eventidal

Guys, can you please help me? I was watching Star Wars 7, The Force Awakens in 3d last night and I encountered a black bar (ONLY) on the left side of my picture dropping into some scenes. I know the film was shot in different formats but I had never experienced bars on one side only. Also, no matter what setting with aspect ratios I chose, for the first time I could not make them disappear with various aspect ratios. I ended up putting the projector into 1:2.35 Zoom Mode to make them vanish as the Lumagen could not handle the issue. Anyone else noticed this? Any suggestions how to handle this highly appreciated.


----------



## SJHT

I just watched that movie recently and don't remember seeing that. Which chapter/scene? SJ


----------



## Eventidal

Very often... Easy to find would be beginning of


PHP:




 chapter 26, chapter 29...


----------



## jrp

Eventidal said:


> Guys, can you please help me? I was watching Star Wars 7, The Force Awakens in 3d last night and I since this is in the Radiance Pro thread? If not, please let us know which model you have.
> 
> Are both the input and output mode 1080p24 frame-packed? You can check in the status screen by pressing OK on the remote to find out.
> 
> Note that this could be in the projector and not the Radiance Pro as the way our memory interface works this particular issue seems unlikely. Not saying it's the projector though. Just saying it might be.
> 
> Could be a setup issue as well. We would need to know if this is setup for 2.35 screen using Tech Tip 16 and other details. Watching after a temporat Factor Reset might indicate this if tit worked better in factory mode.
> 
> If you continue to have this issue, email us at support @ lumagen.com.


----------



## SJHT

Eventidal said:


> Very often... Easy to find would be beginning of
> 
> 
> PHP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chapter 26, chapter 29...


Yeah, I see it also. Kind of a small black but translucent border appears and disappears. Only happens on the 3D version. I played the 2D and it is not there. Almost like the boarder is being 3Ded into on and off. Strange. SJ


----------



## SJHT

It must be the filming/CGI conversions/scenes in 3D. Maybe there conversion process or something? It is very small, probably why I didn't recall seeing it and there are also a lot of dark scenes.... Also, not translucent with 3D glasses on. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> It must be the filming/CGI conversions/scenes in 3D. Maybe there conversion process or something? It is very small, probably why I didn't recall seeing it and there are also a lot of dark scenes.... Also, not translucent with 3D glasses on. SJ


An interesting test would be to tell the Radiance to first output only the left-eye (Menu/Output/3DOptions), and then output only the right-eye. If it is in one of both of these it would tend to point to the issue being in the source. since it puts almost the entire Radiance pipeline in 2D mode and the projector in 2D mode.


----------



## Eventidal

Jim, could you take a look into it? The only workaround was to put my projector on 2,35:1 Zoom. I believe the Pro could handle this but don´t know how...


----------



## SJHT

Just zoom in 5% and it would go away. I have a 16:9 screen and normally do this which is actually why I didn't see it now that I'm thinking about it. I might try Jims suggestion next time I look at it. SJ


----------



## Eventidal

My zoom (projector) is already on 100%. Maybe the Pro should zoom in and do the job? Interesting...


----------



## ScottJ

SJHT said:


> It must be the filming/CGI conversions/scenes in 3D. Maybe there conversion process or something? It is very small, probably why I didn't recall seeing it and there are also a lot of dark scenes.... Also, not translucent with 3D glasses on. SJ


I don't have that disc, but I've seen that in 3D movies before; I remember it from one of the last scenes in Gravity 3D.

In that case the left eye and right eye's image ended at the same point in the scene. That did not correspond to the same point on the screen because of the 3D. If they'd extended both the left and right eye's image all the way to the edge of the screen, then one eye would have appeared able to see further left than the other.

Could this issue be the same thing? It was certainly deliberate in Gravity; I noticed it and thought it was a clever little trick.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Eventidal said:


> My zoom (projector) is already on 100%. Maybe the Pro should zoom in and do the job? Interesting...



I think the comment was about using the zoom setting on the Radiance. I think the shortcut is possibly right cursor or up cursor...when pushed the aspect will be shown with a z1 after to show it is zoomed....I'm sitting at a hotel bar just now near Edinburgh so can't check on a unit myself

Gordon


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 121716 FW - 18Ghz output card support*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


> *Beta 121716*
> - Adds 18Ghz output card support enabling 4K 50 and 60 Hz video at highest quality on processed Radiance outputs (1-4).
> Install this (or newer) update before installing one of the new 18Ghz output cards.
> Audio issue fix.
> Fix for half screen 4k test pattern issue.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected].
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## mhafner

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


Still no genlock fix for JVC projectors?


----------



## Eventidal

ScottJ said:


> I don't have that disc, but I've seen that in 3D movies before; I remember it from one of the last scenes in Gravity 3D.
> 
> In that case the left eye and right eye's image ended at the same point in the scene. That did not correspond to the same point on the screen because of the 3D. If they'd extended both the left and right eye's image all the way to the edge of the screen, then one eye would have appeared able to see further left than the other.
> 
> Could this issue be the same thing? It was certainly deliberate in Gravity; I noticed it and thought it was a clever little trick.


I don´t think that´s been the same issue. The 3D version of Star Wars7 is awesome you should take a look at it.


----------



## JFR0317

In my system, I have Output 4 on my Radiance Pro connected to Input 2 on my Sony 1100ES projector and Output 3 connected to my Sony XBR-79X900B flat panel’s Input 1. As you may know, Input 2 on the Sony 1100ES is HDCP 2.2 compliant as are all four HDMI inputs on the XBR79-X900B. After updating the firmware on my Radiance Pro from Beta 110416 to Beta 121716, when I try to watch the projector with an HDCP 2.2 source such as my Kaleidescape Strato, I get an onscreen message from the Radiance Pro saying that the display connected to Output 3 is not HDCP 2.2 compliant, and it gives me options to either treat the Radiance Pro input source being used as HDCP 1.x compliant either temporarily or permanently or to blank Output 3 either temporarily or permanently. When this is happening, the XBR-79X900B is in Off/Standby mode.

When I try to watch the XBR-79X900B, I do not get such a message. When this is happening, the Sony 1100ES is in Off/Standby mode.

I have reverted back to Beta 110416, and the issue described above does not occur.

My Radiance Pro is a 4446, and the input card being used is the 18GHz version.


----------



## netroamer

JFR0317 said:


> In my system, I have Output 4 on my Radiance Pro connected to Input 2 on my Sony 1100ES projector and Output 3 connected to my Sony XBR-79X900B flat panel’s Input 1. As you may know, Input 2 on the Sony 1100ES is HDCP 2.2 compliant as are all four HDMI inputs on the XBR79-X900B. After updating the firmware on my Radiance Pro from Beta 110416 to Beta 121716, when I try to watch the projector with an HDCP 2.2 source such as my Kaleidescape Strato, I get an onscreen message from the Radiance Pro saying that the display connected to Output 3 is not HDCP 2.2 compliant, and it gives me options to either treat the Radiance Pro input source being used as HDCP 1.x compliant either temporarily or permanently or to blank Output 3 either temporarily or permanently. When this is happening, the XBR-79X900B is in Off/Standby mode.
> 
> When I try to watch the XBR-79X900B, I do not get such a message. When this is happening, the Sony 1100ES is in Off/Standby mode.
> 
> I have reverted back to Beta 110416, and the issue described above does not occur.
> 
> My Radiance Pro is a 4446, and the input card being used is the 18GHz version.


The new 121716 may be treating output 3 differently. Try the firmware after changing the XBR to output 2.


----------



## Mike_WI

JFR0317 said:


> In my system, I have Output 4 on my Radiance Pro connected to Input 2 on my Sony 1100ES projector and Output 3 connected to my Sony XBR-79X900B flat panel’s Input 1. As you may know, Input 2 on the Sony 1100ES is HDCP 2.2 compliant as are all four HDMI inputs on the XBR79-X900B. After updating the firmware on my Radiance Pro from Beta 110416 to Beta 121716, when I try to watch the projector with an HDCP 2.2 source such as my Kaleidescape Strato, I get an onscreen message from the Radiance Pro saying that the display connected to Output 3 is not HDCP 2.2 compliant, and it gives me options to either treat the Radiance Pro input source being used as HDCP 1.x compliant either temporarily or permanently or to blank Output 3 either temporarily or permanently. When this is happening, the XBR-79X900B is in Off/Standby mode.
> 
> When I try to watch the XBR-79X900B, I do not get such a message. When this is happening, the Sony 1100ES is in Off/Standby mode.
> 
> I have reverted back to Beta 110416, and the issue described above does not occur.
> 
> My Radiance Pro is a 4446, and the input card being used is the 18GHz version.





netroamer said:


> The new 121716 may be treating output 3 differently. Try the firmware after changing the XBR to output 2.


Do you have 9 or 18 GHz output card(s)?
I think the FW changed the default (for 18 GHz, but maybe 9 GHz output) to Out 1 = audio.

Mike


----------



## JFR0317

Mike_WI said:


> Do you have 9 or 18 GHz output card(s)?
> I think the FW changed the default (for 18 GHz, but maybe 9 GHz output) to Out 1 = audio.
> 
> Mike


I have the 9 GHz output cards. I reported this to radiancepro_beta and received a reply from Patrick stating "From what you describe, the Pro is confusing your SonyXBR when off as a non-HDCP 2.2 device. So we'll need to work on that. In this case you could have just picked either temporarily or permanently blank Output 3 when this happens and things would go on as before. Picking "permanently" is really just telling the Pro not to display the warning message again and does not mean output 3 is always blanked---just blanked in the situation that is currently occurring which is fine since the XBR is off. So feel free to go back to 121716 and turn off the message permanently."


----------



## leemathre

Can anyone share their experience installing the 18 GHZ input and output cards? Jim has emailed me that it might be better to send my unit to Lumagen and let them do the install, but it would be really difficult for me to be without my Pro for the turn around time.


----------



## SJHT

The input cards are simple. I did two of them. I'm going to send my unit in to get the output card installed as it is my understanding it is a bit trickier. But doable...


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz input/output cards*



leemathre said:


> Can anyone share their experience installing the 18 GHZ input and output cards? Jim has emailed me that it might be better to send my unit to Lumagen and let them do the install, but it would be really difficult for me to be without my Pro for the turn around time.





SJHT said:


> The input cards are simple. I did two of them. I'm going to send my unit in to get the output card installed as it is my understanding it is a bit trickier. But doable...


I installed two input cards and an output card in a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (now a 4446).
PM me if you want some info to help do it at home.
I would agree that not as easy as I anticipated from scratch, but after done once relatively easy.

Mike


----------



## leemathre

SJHT said:


> The input cards are simple. I did two of them. I'm going to send my unit in to get the output card installed as it is my understanding it is a bit trickier. But doable...


Thanks for the information.


----------



## leemathre

Mike_WI said:


> I installed to input cards and an output card in a 4444 (now a 4446).
> PM me if you want some info to help do it at home.
> I would agree that not as easy as I anticipated from scratch, but after done once relatively easy.
> 
> Mike


Thanks. PM sent.


----------



## tspotorno

Anyone have the Oppo 203 yet?

Just got around to setting mine up tonight. Had some initial issues getting it to display a UHD via the Lumagen.

I am replacing a Panasonic UB900 and one thing I noticed was the significant "Lag" while it sync's with the UV5000.

For those getting it, what is the best setup to work with the Pro? I do not have the 18ghz output cards yet.


----------



## kaotikr1

I have had my 203 for just over a week and so far I just have everything as default on the OPPO. I am using an RS500 so I can't comment on your VW5000.


----------



## SJHT

alex_t said:


> Hello.
> 
> To set up black level and white level of the display you should use the Reference test patterns of Radiance. To set up the same in the source you need to use a calibration disk, Ted's disk is my favourite.
> You need to do both.
> 
> The TIP number 5 from Lumagen in section "How to use the Contrast1 and Contrast2 patterns" (page 3) will give you all the necessary details to do black/white level for the display: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals
> 
> There are many other useful TIPs and they are all applicable for Radiance PRO and before the PRO.
> 
> Alexandre


The white and black ramps described in this documentation seem to be different in the PRO. Since I'm not using video enhanced, the BTB doesn't show up. There is a ramp in the middle of contrast 2 that goes from -4 to +4. Should I set to show +1 to +4? Seems like this is having me turn the brightness up too much. The black ramp has no documentation to outline what I'm looking at. How many bars should I be setting for. Thanks anyone for some feedback. SJ


----------



## SJHT

Ended up having +3 and +4 for brightness showing using the contrast 2 pattern. Looks really good. Of course, I can't even get the pattern with HDR to show those. Almost all black screen unless an crank the brightness to Max. Must be missing something as movies look good on the screen. Using the test mode with HDR/REC2020, etc. I'm on ChadB list whenever he comes to the west coast. May need to find somebody else if that doesn't happen. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 122716 Firmware*

Link



> *Beta 122716*
> Fix for a new HDCP message being displayed when not needed.
> Added an option to disable 18Ghz EDID for inputs on 18Ghz input cards so that some older 9Ghz sources will play correctly.
> If you have a problem (.ie no audio, incorrect color) with an older non-4k source into an 18Ghz Pro input then try setting 18Ghz to 'No' under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Video EDID in the Pro menu.
> Some other bugfixes and minor improvements.
> _*Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware*_


----------



## mhafner

kaotikr1 said:


> I have had my 203 for just over a week and so far I just have everything as default on the OPPO. I am using an RS500 so I can't comment on your VW5000.


Can you see the different lowest black levels from the Sony test pattern (on UHD discs) on the RS500 via Oppo? Via the Panasonic they first few are all the same.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 122916 FW Update*

Beta 122916



> *Beta 122916*
> Audio bug fixed that occurred when using 18Ghz output card.
> Fix for no video on output when powering up on unconnected input.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> *Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware*


----------



## Mike_WI

Mike_WI said:


> Beta 122916


After normal FW update and Radiance Pro self restart -- no audio.
I shut everything off and then back on again.
That worked.


----------



## jrp

There were several reports in this thread of a new message about HDCP 2.2 not being on avaiable for a display that actually did have HDCP 2.2.

Since some people were having issues with a "Black screen" when they had a HDCP 2.2 source driving a HDCP 1.X display we wanted to add a message so they would at least know of the HDCP issue. Unfortunately the first couple of releases with the new message had a timing issue determining HDCP 2.2 on the display and incorrectly blanked the screen with the message.

This has been resolved in the 122916 software, and the HDCP error message should now only appear when it is supposed to.


----------



## stanger89

OK, so I'm going to ask...

Jim, any comments about HDMI 2.1? With the HDR situation and the fact that I have a projector, the value of a Radiance Pro is becoming more and more apparent to me. However it's a little scary buying a processor as expensive as a Pro when it's HDMI is now "obsolete" (OK, that's a bit hyperbolic, but right or wrong I expect something like a Radiance Pro to outlast just about everything else in my rack).

I assume the modular nature of the HDMI boards means that it's possible to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 compliant I/O boards.
I also assume the FPGA/architecture of the pro don't support the higher, 8k or 10k resolutions. Or dare we hope that's why it's so expensive?

FWIW, I don't personally really see 8 or 10K being important to me. 4K already brings HDR and WCG, and is pretty much already at the threshold of benefit, so I just don't see there being a compelling reason to desire >4K.

And, HDMI 2.1 really? Do these people not know a thing about how use version numbers? New cables, 2.5x the bandwidth, new resolutions, shouldn't that be HDMI 3.0? Or heck, HDMI 1.4 to HDMI 2.0, no new connectors, no new cables (in the spec), same max resolution, shouldn't HDMI 2.0 really have been HDMI 1.5, and HDMI 2.1 be HDMI 2.0?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I believe Jim has already commented that he expects to be able to make the Pro HDMI2.1 compliant for dynamic metadata with just a firmware update. 

The FPGA will not have the capacity to deal with 8K or 10K. The reason it costs so much was for the FPGA that could cope with 4K60!....

The HDMI input and output modules were specifically designed the way they are in case there were new hardware HDMI specifications that would require new chips so the whole main board would not need replaced like in the XD to XE change from 1.1 to 1.3......but you may remember the XE is still 1.4 compliant even though it only has 1.3 hdmi spec chips inside...as the rest is done in the rest of the Radiance processing...

I'm sure jim will appear to correct me if ive made any mistakes


----------



## stanger89

Gordon Fraser said:


> I believe Jim has already commented that he expects to be able to make the Pro HDMI2.1 compliant for dynamic metadata with just a firmware update.


Yeah, I know he said dynamic metadata, I was just curious about other things. I probably really don't care about anything else though.



> The FPGA will not have the capacity to deal with 8K or 10K. The reason it costs so much was for the FPGA that could cope with 4K60!....


I know, or at least that's my assumption 



> The HDMI input and output modules were specifically designed the way they are in case there were new hardware HDMI specifications that would require new chips so the whole main board would not need replaced like in the XD to XE change from 1.1 to 1.3......but you may remember the XE is still 1.4 compliant even though it only has 1.3 hdmi spec chips inside...as the rest is done in the rest of the Radiance processing...


Yup, and that's my understanding/assumption as well. Really, there was nothing in the HDMI 2.1 press releases that was interesting to me, other than perhaps dynamic metadata. I don't see a call for the higher resolutions, nor will I use any of the new ARC functionality. I'm just curious how much of HDMI 2.1 (other than the >4K resolution) the Radiance can support, how futureproof it is.


----------



## kaotikr1

I think the way the Pro is built and designed it will last us all many years and fulfill our needs for quite a while.


----------



## dlinsley

jjcook said:


> You can try a Tripp Lite USB repeater cable; I haven't used it with my Radiance 2143 but it's worked perfectly fororher applications:
> 
> Tripp Lite USB 2.0 Hi-Speed A/B Active Repeater Cable (M/M) 25-ft. (U042-025) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BFRKYSU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_VvnmybFDH7NA8





dlinsley said:


> Thanks! I've ordered the 36' version (great price for both this and the 25') as I can leave it plugged into the Radiance in my rack and then bundled up in my rack drawer ready to just slide open and unspool when I need it - with enough length still to get to the far end of the room. Perfect.
> 
> With the frequency of updates from Lumagen, I can just relax in a chair too rather than being tied to the rack


Although I bought the Tripp Lite USB repeater cable at the time of that discussion, my room has been torn apart since October and I've not had the Radiance plugged in since then to report back. Even though my room still isn't functional (getting close!) I received the 18G output card this week and wanted to install it to ensure it was ok, so I dragged the Radiance to the living room and updated the firmware before doing so and used the Tripp Lite to do it. At the fastest speed (230k) it worked absolutely fine. BTW I bought the 36':

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W0BVTW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 123016 FW Update*

Beta 123016 FW Update



> *Beta 123016*
> Fix for case of no audio with some sources and 9Ghz Pro input card.
> Fix for case of no audio with certain audio formats and 18Ghz Pro output card.
> Fix for incorrect HDCP status on 9Ghz input card.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## IconBycon

Just got my Lumagen Pro, and love the results!

Jim, thank you very much for your help, and keep on the great work!


----------



## Duke_

Hi All,


I currently have a Radiance Pro calibrated using Chromapure. I'm looking to switch to a MacBook pro and understand people have successfully used Chromapure using Parallels for mac but I don't know if I'll be able to update the firmware on the radiance pro. Can anyone confirm if this is possible? Any advice or success stories appreciated.


Thanks


----------



## Eventidal

I am using bootcamp with my macbook pro, no problems with firmware updates.


----------



## Duke_

Eventidal said:


> I am using bootcamp with my macbook pro, no problems with firmware updates.


Perfect, thanks for the quick reply!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I used to use parallels on my macbook pro for all calibration and firmware stuff in my work. I ended up just getting a cast off windows 7.1 laptop instead as i got fed up with all the hassle of swapping operating systems on the Mac.


----------



## SJHT

What cube size are folks using with LIGHTSPACE CMS and what display type for three panel JVCs? My first attempt looked like a squashed cube with a horrible picture. Lol. Calman comes out much better but obviously simpler. 

Used the 17 point cube. Still a bust. Tried two different meters with the same results. I must be doing something wrong as in Calman everything looks great after creating a cube. Lightspace CMS not so.... Have read the guides and followed as closely as possible, but obviously must be missing something. Think I will wait for Gordon's guide...  Thanks. Steve


----------



## sillysally

^^^^

Here is a link to Gordon's guide.
https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&confirm=kSf2&id=0B0KkBsPM5cjVQTNPR3QwTmdDYTQ

imho the key to Gordon's guide is using and setting the 21 point grayscale in the 444X.
However he is suggesting to do the 21 point grayscale after the 3DLUT has been made and installed in the 444X. Doing a Grayscale calibration after the CMS has been done will void out the 3DLUT accuracy to some degree.

Don't feel bad, I tried a 17x3 profile for HDR/2020 and failed.
I will try Calman tonight and see how that comes out.

ss


----------



## Gordon Fraser

You don't have to do the greyscale after..but if you have a non linear display sometimes it can be beneficial. Also, you can do a pre greyscale change and post greyscale change profile to see if you did make it better or worse with manual intervention.


SJHT...Where does it look like a squashed cube? What is it you are trying to calibrate for?


----------



## SJHT

I'm just trying to do a normal SDR luts to get used to the software prior to moving on to your HDR guide. The cube comes out not looking like anything the pictures show as most of the color components of the cube are missing. I would say the cube is about 25% complete with nothing aligned even though I ran for 2 hours. When I upload to the Pro the picture is way oversaturated like turning the color on an old tube set to max. For Calman, I normally just some basic setup (contrast, brightness, 2 point grayscale, etc. )and it runs a 21 point grayscale calibration and then moves on to do the 17 point 3D Luts. I must have a setting wrong or something in creating the LUT in Lightspace CMS. The one thing which seems strange on Calman is that when I'm done, I have to turn my brightness which normally is around 10 (running in Standard Video mode) to 30 per Pro patterns. Not sure this is normal or not. SJ


----------



## Mark_H

SJHT said:


> For Calman, I normally just some basic setup (contrast, brightness, 2 point grayscale, etc. )and it runs a 21 point grayscale calibration and then moves on to do the 17 point 3D Luts.


No need to do the 1D LUT (greyscale) with CalMAN if you are doing a 3D LUT. The 3D LUT job will reset the CMS, wiping out the 1D LUT, before running and it will then handle the greyscale for you as part of the 3D LUT.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> I'm just trying to do a normal SDR luts to get used to the software prior to moving on to your HDR guide. The cube comes out not looking like anything the pictures show as most of the color components of the cube are missing. I would say the cube is about 25% complete with nothing aligned even though I ran for 2 hours. When I upload to the Pro the picture is way oversaturated like turning the color on an old tube set to max. For Calman, I normally just some basic setup (contrast, brightness, 2 point grayscale, etc. )and it runs a 21 point grayscale calibration and then moves on to do the 17 point 3D Luts. I must have a setting wrong or something in creating the LUT in Lightspace CMS. The one thing which seems strange on Calman is that when I'm done, I have to turn my brightness which normally is around 10 (running in Standard Video mode) to 30 per Pro patterns. Not sure this is normal or not. SJ



If you are looking at the 3D view of the measurements when you create the LUT it should look much smaller than the cube...it's showing the measurements you actually took not what it will look like when you are finished. It will not look uniform.

My guide shows the method to use for HDR. For SDR choose PEAK CHROMA as method for LUT creation. Once youve uploaded the LUT re profile and then go to manage colourspace option and view your measured profile. In the CIE chart click on a measurement cross and you'll find a table will pop up with all the rgb triplet values you measured and beside them the de values.

I took pics for the basic document while sitting at hotel bar two nights ago on calibration trip. Will i'm offshore later this coming week doing a couple of Radiance Pro calibrations and will try to do some more work on the document then. Cheers


----------



## BakeApples

So apparently the "HDR Intensity mapping" software is soon ready for release and i guess this is the same as the "Shaping LUT" talked about earlier. I am not sure i understand how this will work and would appreciate if anyone could explain further how Pro users can benefit from this.
First, is this mapping solution intended primarily for watching HDR on HDR capable displays or is it for watching SDR on HDR or non-HDR capable displays?
Second, will users have to calibrate their displays for HDR & WCG before taking use of the Intensity mapping software or can anyone with a UHD/HDR/WCG capable display directly make use of this new software?

Right now, i use my Oppo 203 player to convert HDR -> SDR and the result is ok but still not perfect. This is because the strip HDR metadata function in the Oppo is not currently working correctly so the SDR2020 image is too dark. That`s why i`m hoping to do this with the Pro instead but like i said, i havn`t calibrated my display for HDR and i don`t have any such software or equipment either.

So i guess my main question is, can Pro users with UHD/HDR/WCG capable displays currently not calibrated for this still take advantage from the new Intesity mapping software and make the correct conversion from HDR2020 to SDR2020?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 010317 FW Update*

Beta 010317 FW Update



> *Beta 010317*
> Fix for 4K inputs sometimes giving small amount of horizontal noise.
> Improved HDR transition.
> Improved audio unmute for 18Ghz card.
> Other small improvements.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## sillysally

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you are looking at the 3D view of the measurements when you create the LUT it should look much smaller than the cube...it's showing the measurements you actually took not what it will look like when you are finished. It will not look uniform.
> 
> My guide shows the method to use for HDR. For SDR choose PEAK CHROMA as method for LUT creation. Once youve uploaded the LUT re profile and then go to manage colourspace option and view your measured profile. In the CIE chart click on a measurement cross and you'll find a table will pop up with all the rgb triplet values you measured and beside them the de values.
> 
> I took pics for the basic document while sitting at hotel bar two nights ago on calibration trip. Will i'm offshore later this coming week doing a couple of Radiance Pro calibrations and will try to do some more work on the document then. Cheers


Thanks Gordon for your HDR calibration tips.

Found by not using the rolloff feature in LightSpace, worked better on the EF9500 OLED. The peak brightness of the EF9500 is 437 nits..
Did a full 21 point grayscale after the 3DLUT was loaded as you suggested.

Here is a link to my results. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...9500-oled-owners-thread-780.html#post49945249

Also tried Caman and it was not good.

ss


----------



## jrp

BakeApples said:


> So apparently the "HDR Intensity mapping" software is soon ready for release and i guess this is the same as the "Shaping LUT" talked about earlier.
> 
> So i guess my main question is, can Pro users with UHD/HDR/WCG capable displays currently not calibrated for this still take advantage from the new Intensity mapping software and make the correct conversion from HDR2020 to SDR2020?


The HDR Intensity Mapping, formerly Shaping LUT, adapts the intensity transfer function of an HDR source for display on either an HDR TV/projector, or a SDR TV/projector, with a different maximum brightness than the source mastering level.

This works whether the 3D LUT calibration has been completed or not (but of course it works better if it has).


----------



## jrp

stanger89 said:


> OK, so I'm going to ask...
> 
> Jim, any comments about HDMI 2.1? With the HDR situation and the fact that I have a projector, the value of a Radiance Pro is becoming more and more apparent to me. However it's a little scary buying a processor as expensive as a Pro when it's HDMI is now "obsolete" (OK, that's a bit hyperbolic, but right or wrong I expect something like a Radiance Pro to outlast just about everything else in my rack).
> 
> I assume the modular nature of the HDMI boards means that it's possible to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 compliant I/O boards.
> I also assume the FPGA/architecture of the pro don't support the higher, 8k or 10k resolutions. Or dare we hope that's why it's so expensive?
> 
> FWIW, I don't personally really see 8 or 10K being important to me. 4K already brings HDR and WCG, and is pretty much already at the threshold of benefit, so I just don't see there being a compelling reason to desire >4K. ...


We expect that some aspects of HDMI 2.1 will be able to be added with a software upgrade. One example is Dynamic HDR Info Frames. While we cannot commit to this until we have it implemented, it looks like the current hardware will be able to support this feature.

The current Radiance Pro hardware platforms are 4k60. So 8k support, for these models, is not in the plans at this time. That said, the Radiance Pro 444X *may* at some point be able to support 8k output, either by left/right dual output using 18 GHz outputs, or potentially a 36 GHz output card upgrade. This is possible since the 444X models were designed with four 9 GHz outputs which can, potentially, be combined into a single 36 GHz output due to the modular I/O architecture.

Next question is input at 8k. Since there are four times as many pixels to process, there is not enough memory bandwidth or gates in the FPGA and a new design is needed.

I believe 8k output is more important than 8k input and so the potential for 8k output IMO could extend the life of the 444X models if we do end up supporting it.


----------



## chimoult

Thanks Jim for this informations. Have you planned a Dolby Vision upgrade for the incoming Blu-ray UHD DV ?


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

I believe in previous comments, he indicated no because of the insane licensing required or something.... SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*BT.1886 standard for Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF)*

This is beyond me, but wondered if @jrp or others could comment on this for ability of Lumagen Radiance Pro to help...




> Actually there was a solution immediately, Dolby Vision. It is a VERY laid out fully standardized approach that would resolve nearly 99% of the issues people and CE products have with HDR. But no one wanted to pay the royalties. Then Dolby gave them the crumbs with HDR10, which gave the CE companies the ability to basically present HDR however they felt best with none of the features that standardize it, so 31 flavors of crap, and here we are.


*
Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread
*




> If i'm reading into what you're saying, some UHD titles aren't up to the BT.1886 standard for Electro-Optical Transfer Function (EOTF) especially in the bottom end, and sadly, the current crop of JVC under $10K can't correct for this with defective Dark Level settings that raise the black floor.
> 
> I read that there's not much change with the new JVC models except for improved lag times for gaming. If that's the case, then only the expensive 4500 model will be the only projector from JVC that can come close to handling UHDs well with gamma settings. It's also not the fault of the UHD player.
> 
> Basically, it sounds like we screwed using current eShift JVCs because of poor UHD mastering on the low end and the JVCs inability to correct this. Do I have that right? If not, where am I going off the rails?


EDIT: 
(added)

Bold added to Manni01 post:



> Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
> But you and others (if I have this correct) really do see an appreciable positive difference watching the UHD version vs the Blu-Ray versions of movies, correct? (That is when stripping the HDR e.g fury/Panny combo). I'm literally sitting here with my finger paused over the "order" button for a celerity optical HDMI cable, but then these threads get so down on UHD that I wonder again whether it's worth it at all.
> At this stage for PJ owners (especially e-shift ones) the main reason to go for UHD Bluray is immersive sound, not improved picture. Unless you go for the 4500, the lack of DI in HDR is a downgrade, not an upgrade for 90% of the titles.
> 
> If you don't have Atmos/DTS:X, my advice is to get working on this in your room while they sort out SDR...
> 
> We'll need *HDMI 2.1 and dynamic metadata or Dolby Vision* (in content, source and display) to get a consistent and accurate playback in HDR.
> 
> I'm glad I got the RS500 when I did because I could get my immersive audio tracks and get a very nice picture in SDR BT2020, but it's not night and day unless you sit super close to the screen (I'd say 1.2 SW or closer).
> 
> That late in the game, with HDMI 2.1 models to be introduced at the end of the year, I'd wait to get a way to reproduce HDR properly, not a prototype, which is what current displays are (unless you're happy to swap equipment every year or so).
> 
> The only exception is for gamers who don't care about HDR, in that case I'd buy one of the new models right away. *Or if you're happy to get a Radiance Pro and a pro calibrator to set everything up for you. *
> 
> Beware, HDMI 2.1 is changing the bandwidth, so you'll need new cables and all the devices in the chain (source, AVR, switches, display) to be compatible to support the upgraded speed.
> 
> As you've waited that long and if you're happy with your RS500 playing blurays, I'd wait until you can upgrade everything to HDMI 2.1/Dolby Vision at the end of 2017. That should be a significant step forward, especially if we get either laser or native 4K for under $10K. Who knows, we might even be able to calibrate HDR by then?


----------



## stanger89

jrp said:


> We expect that some aspects of HDMI 2.1 will be able to be added with a software upgrade. One example is Dynamic HDR Info Frames. While we cannot commit to this until we have it implemented, it looks like the current hardware will be able to support this feature.
> 
> The current Radiance Pro hardware platforms are 4k60. So 8k support, for these models, is not in the plans at this time. That said, the Radiance Pro 444X *may* at some point be able to support 8k output, either by left/right dual output using 18 GHz outputs, or potentially a 36 GHz output card upgrade. This is possible since the 444X models were designed with four 9 GHz outputs which can, potentially, be combined into a single 36 GHz output due to the modular I/O architecture.
> 
> Next question is input at 8k. Since there are four times as many pixels to process, there is not enough memory bandwidth or gates in the FPGA and a new design is needed.
> 
> I believe 8k output is more important than 8k input and so the potential for 8k output IMO could extend the life of the 444X models if we do end up supporting it.


Great info Jim, thanks!


----------



## LJG

Gordon Fraser said:


> I used to use parallels on my macbook pro for all calibration and firmware stuff in my work. I ended up just getting a cast off windows 7.1 laptop instead as i got fed up with all the hassle of swapping operating systems on the Mac.


I am having trouble getting my Panasonic UHD player to output SDR 2020. I have tried adjusting Global Video to HDR no, but the Panasonic continues to output HDR. I am on most current firmware for Panasonic and Pro. I recall being able to do this several firmwares before....


----------



## Gordon Fraser

MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>VIDEO EDID

Have a look there. If it currently says use GLOBAL i'd try changing it to NO and see what happens...and report result to Lumagen in case it's a bug


----------



## LJG

I've tried what you suggested prior to coming here and also reported to Lumagen as bug, I thought perhaps my procedure was not correct. Just wondering if anyone is able to output this with latest firmware?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

sorry i don't have my Panny UHD anymore


----------



## jamesmil

Why not let the Radiance Pro strip the HDR in, instead of the Panny? Accept full BT.2020+HDR into the Radiance Pro, output BT.2020 SDR (or RGB). Right now it may clip HDR brightness (something the HDR Intensity Mapping feature should addressed when released), but I have to imagine it will still do a better job with the conversion then the Panny will...


----------



## LJG

Solved by Jim and Patrick, thanks guys!!!!


----------



## SJHT

What is the recommended start-up sequence with projector, source, audio and the Lumagen Pro? Had a couple of times, where my audio doesn't work and turn the pro off and on seems to solve it. Doesn't always happen, but trying the Lumagen ON at the end of the sequence. What are others doing? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Chris5

In my experience, switch on display/audio 1st then work backwards to source, no doubt other people will disagree though


----------



## netroamer

SJHT said:


> What is the recommended start-up sequence with projector, source, audio and the Lumagen Pro? Had a couple of times, where my audio doesn't work and turn the pro off and on seems to solve it. Doesn't always happen, but trying the Lumagen ON at the end of the sequence. What are others doing? Thanks. SJ


My sequence is Audio (McIntosh MX151), Source, Lumagen Pro (Delay 10secs) Projector (Sony VW5000). I Have been chasing start up issues for months and this is the best sequence for me.


----------



## sjschaff

netroamer said:


> My sequence is Audio (McIntosh MX151), Source, Lumagen Pro (Delay 10secs) Projector (Sony VW5000). I Have been chasing start up issues for months and this is the best sequence for me.


I agree with this sequence of getting sources powered up first since it's the display that communicates its capabilities to the sources which in turn then are supposed to adjust their output to what they've been told by the display. In my setup my TIVO is always "on" and then I power up my audio processor (Anthem) followed by the Lumagen and finally the JVC projector.


----------



## SJHT

This is really good info. I've always powered on my projector first (JVC RS600). I will switch it around to last and give it a try.

Also, do you let each device fully boot up before starting the next piece? Thanks. SJ


----------



## netroamer

SJHT said:


> This is really good info. I've always powered on my projector first (JVC RS600). I will switch it around to last and give it a try.
> 
> Also, do you let each device fully boot up before starting the next piece? Thanks. SJ


Sources such as cable/Tivo and the new Rokus' are always on, so you can move ahead quickly. Audio processors or a Lumagen Pro should be given at least 10 secs to stabilize that includes the 5v line if you are using a active cable from either to the projector.


----------



## turls

netroamer said:


> Sources such as cable/Tivo and the new Rokus' are always on, so you can move ahead quickly. Audio processors or a Lumagen Pro should be given at least 10 secs to stabilize that includes the 5v line if you are using a active cable from either to the projector.


If this is the case, I'm already waiting quite a while for a lamp-based projector to come up, and this will add extensively to the delay. If you ask jrp about this stuff its typical to blame cabling. My issue with that is it isn't consistent. I have a special Control4 macro for power cycling the Lumagen Pro because this got to be such a regular occurance (actually it was an issue with my Radiance XE 3D as well). I hope more can be done in firmware, but preferably we get a solid guide in documentation at some point that is the last word on the matter--including different steps/guidelines if you use active cabling or not (and other variables). 

Its annoying and I don't deal with it in any other room in the house without a processor, except VERY rarely. And in the rest of the house I run HDMI matrix, HDMI over Cat6, and multiple rooms with AVRs across numerous model years. Much more solid than the theater with the Radiance.


----------



## netroamer

turls said:


> If this is the case, I'm already waiting quite a while for a lamp-based projector to come up, and this will add extensively to the delay. If you ask jrp about this stuff its typical to blame cabling. My issue with that is it isn't consistent. I have a special Control4 macro for power cycling the Lumagen Pro because this got to be such a regular occurance (actually it was an issue with my Radiance as well). I hope more can be done in firmware, but preferably we get a solid guide in documentation at some point that is the last word on the matter--including different steps/guidelines if you use active cabling or not (and other variables).
> 
> Its annoying and I don't deal with it in any other room in the house without a processor, except VERY rarely. And in the rest of the house I run HDMI matrix, HDMI over Cat6, and multiple rooms with AVRs across numerous model years. Much more solid than the theater with the Radiance.


The sequence I noted works for my setup. I don't mind wasting a few extra heartbeats waiting for the system to boot as I believe I am adding to my life by avoiding the frustration of the "Oh Sh_t" moments when I got a black screen or no audio at startup. Until the cable manufacturers adopt a universal standard for certifying 18ghz cables and equipment manufacturers improve their firmware we will still have these glitches.


----------



## tibia

*4K HDR Gamma setting in JVC RS600 vs. Lumagen Pro*

I use Lumagen Pro and Chromapure to calibrate my RS600. When I load a 4K disc with HDR the projector automatically selects Gamma D.  Does anyone know if such an extreme gamma profile as Gamma D presents a conflict with Lumagen and Chromapure? Or would I be better off manually selecting Gamma Normal or Gamma A before running Chromapure Auto Calibrate?


----------



## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> This is really good info. I've always powered on my projector first (JVC RS600). I will switch it around to last and give it a try.
> 
> Also, do you let each device fully boot up before starting the next piece? Thanks. SJ


Yes. I happen to use a Logitech Harmony remote. I've built in enough delay so that the projector come on completely well after all other devices in the chain are on.


----------



## jamesmil

Hi @jrp, any status update on the development progress of the HDR Intensity Mapping functionality?


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 011417*

Link



> *Beta 011417- *
> Fix for audio issue causing loss of audio or incorrect audio format with some AVR's.
> Another audio fix having to do with occasional dropouts with audio out of 18Ghz card.
> Fix for issue that with some setups failed to use HDR or 2020 on output when expected.
> New 18Ghz input card firmware fixes occasional video loss on input mode change.
> Other small improvements.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware ---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update


----------



## SJHT

Mike_WI said:


> Link


Don't recall seeing that last line in a firmware update. Assume it is updating the 18 Ghz input chip software and has to do this on boot up. Assuming I'm correct, does that mean if we roll back to a previous firmware that it does this again to update to the previous chip software? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 011417 query*



SJHT said:


> Don't recall seeing that last line in a firmware update. Assume it is updating the 18 Ghz input chip software and has to do this on boot up. Assuming I'm correct, does that mean if we roll back to a previous firmware that it does this again to update to the previous chip software? Thanks. SJ


Good question.
I have no idea.

cc @JPR


----------



## jrp

jamesmil said:


> Hi @jrp, any status update on the development progress of the HDR Intensity Mapping functionality?


We have continued to have our hands full getting the 18 GHz I/O kinks worked out and have not been making much progress on the HDR Intensity Mapping. 

So my most recent estimate of the end of January is now looking like end of February. However, we continue to prioritize bugs and compatibility issues higher than new features so there is a chance for this to slip again. We believe the latest release (011417) takes care of most issues with 18 GHz I/O. I am hopeful we can now focus on the HDR intensity Mapping.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Don't recall seeing that last line in a firmware update. Assume it is updating the 18 Ghz input chip software and has to do this on boot up. Assuming I'm correct, does that mean if we roll back to a previous firmware that it does this again to update to the previous chip software? Thanks. SJ


The ability to roll back the HDMI 2.0 input chip software (provided by the chip vendor) is not in the earlier releases. Testing here shows the new code is better than the old input chip code and we do not expect it would be needed.

No reason to spend time on this unless it becomes necessary. However, if it became necessary, we would have a special release to change the input chip's code back to the earlier release.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

tibia said:


> I use Lumagen Pro and Chromapure to calibrate my RS600. When I load a 4K disc with HDR the projector automatically selects Gamma D. Does anyone know if such an extreme gamma profile as Gamma D presents a conflict with Lumagen and Chromapure? Or would I be better off manually selecting Gamma Normal or Gamma A before running Chromapure Auto Calibrate?


I would not use Auto Calibrate of 3D Lut for HDR, simply because there is no Display on the market that covers whole Rec. 2020 Gamut, therefore Autocalibration simply won't be able to find that delta required to do the matching bit, all your points will be unmatched, simply because there is no 100% correct reference for this. HDR calibration you have to do this manually, and trying bringing down delta error as much as you can, and they would be more than 2% for sure. I am about to receive my Oppo UDP-203 so I'll be able to calibrate mine RS400 via LumagenPro4444 and will post calibration results in the separate thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...4-2015-models-calibration-results-thread.html


----------



## tibia

Thanks for your comments SoulOfUniverse. I know no currently available display can be calibrated all the way out to 100% saturation in 2020 color space but I was unaware Auto Cal does not yet support HDR calibration until Tom Huffman pointed it out yesterday on the Chromapure 3 thread in the Display Calibration forum.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 020117 FW*

Beta 020117



> *Beta 020117*
> - Fix for an issue with audio sometimes not turning on with some equipment at power-on.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDR calibration attempts for projectors*

FYI re projectors and gamma curve for HDR....
(I'm more interested now that up and running with JVC RS520 and new beta FW36 on the Oppo UDP-203)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-685.html#post50609353


> *Custom PQ Gamma curve using the JVC Autocal software*
> I gave it a go this morning, it took about one hour to get a very decent result. This completely solves the dilemma between shadow detail or raised black floor.
> 
> I attach three screenshots showing 1) How the custom gamma curve looks like before calibration (I selected a normal preset as sadly gamma D isn't selectable as a starting point) 2) What the curve looks on the JVC Autocal after calibration and 3) What the curve looks like after the 11 point manual calibration.
> 
> Looks great and the best I've seen HDR. As you can see on the chart, no loss of detail in the low end and full native on/off contrast, unlike when using Dark Gamma above +2. Unfortunaltely this seems to be the only way to get a near perfect PQ Gamma on the JVCs.
> 
> I tried with The Shallows, it looked great and I tried with Point Break, which is mastered to 4000nits and according to metadata has content going quite high above 1200nits, I couldn't see any obvious clipping and the picture wasn't dark in any way.
> 
> So as far as I can see, clipping content around 1200nits (JVC Contrast set to zero and bright gamma set to +2) looks fine with all titles, as expected. If you find a title for which it doesn't look good, please let us know.
> 
> This calibration is only good for my onw setup (200nits peak in high lamp, iris fully open) as unfortunately it's not possible to adjust the gamma settings with a custom curve, but if some with a similar setup want to try it, let me know and I'll post the file.


----------



## jrp

turls said:


> If this is the case, I'm already waiting quite a while for a lamp-based projector to come up, and this will add extensively to the delay. If you ask jrp about this stuff its typical to blame cabling.


That is because it is the cable almost every time.



turls said:


> My issue with that is it isn't consistent. I have a special Control4 macro for power cycling the Lumagen Pro because this got to be such a regular occurrence (actually it was an issue with my Radiance XE 3D as well). I hope more can be done in firmware, but preferably we get a solid guide in documentation at some point that is the last word on the matter--including different steps/guidelines if you use active cabling or not (and other variables).
> 
> Its annoying and I don't deal with it in any other room in the house without a processor, except VERY rarely. And in the rest of the house I run HDMI matrix, HDMI over Cat6, and multiple rooms with AVRs across numerous model years. Much more solid than the theater with the Radiance.


The Radiance Pro has very fast 4k edge rates. We have no control over these edge rates from the chip, and in fact have asked for more control but we were told it was not possible. The edge rate is the primary determinant for how high-speed a cable is needed. The customers who use the cables I recommend pretty much have few issues with cables. Not zero of course because this is after all HDMI.

The Radiance Pro HDMI 2.0 chips are autonomous and they control the HDMI interface. It is very hard for us to work around issues in these chips and more importantly in other devices. In the RadianceXS/XE/2XXX products we spent a great deal of time finding and working around HDMI issues in other devices. Issues like audio interrupts not implemented, timing requirements between actions that are not in the spec, requiring optional parameters when they should calculate them per the spec, etc. In the Pro we do not have the control over the HDMI 2.0 chips to add these work-arounds. So we are dependent on the chip vendor to find and fix most compatibility issues. Fortunately there are some compatibility issues we can address and have as they are discovered.

On a positive note, the latest Radiance Pro release (020117) has new microcode for the 18 GHz HDMI 2.0 input chip which does resolve a couple input side HDMI issues. It is not certain if these were issues in he the HDMI 2.0 18 GHz input chip or in the source devices that are being worked around, but they have been resolved. As the chip vendor provides new HDMI 2.0 input and output chip microcode updates we will include them in the the Radiance Pro updates once they pass our testing.

That latest release also fixes a couple of audio issues on the Radiance Pro output side.

=======

One trick to help with power on order is to manually set the audio EDID and the 3D, HDR and Rec2020 modes in the Radiance Pro based on the audio processor and TV/projector's capabilities. This info is in the manual for the video (Global/video menu for HDR/2020 and output menu to 3D Options). However, for audio there is a special code to manually enable all HDMI audio modes sent back from the Pro to the sources. The code is MENU 0943 (and then a Save).

With these manual changes the Pro knows what audio modes and what video modes to report back to the sources even if the audio processor and/or TV/projector are turned off or even not connected. So these settings, in conjunction with current software releases, can help tame the power on order issue.


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I would not use Auto Calibrate of 3D Lut for HDR, simply because there is no Display on the market that covers whole Rec. 2020 Gamut, therefore Autocalibration simply won't be able to find that delta required to do the matching bit, all your points will be unmatched, simply because there is no 100% correct reference for this. HDR calibration you have to do this manually, and trying bringing down delta error as much as you can, and they would be more than 2% for sure. I am about to receive my Oppo UDP-203 so I'll be able to calibrate mine RS400 via LumagenPro4444 and will post calibration results in the separate thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...4-2015-models-calibration-results-thread.html


I believe you should use the 3D LUT for Rec 2020 calibration. Certainly no display is full Rec 2020 and some are barely more than Rec709. However, the 3D LUT calibration software is supposed to do "Tone Mapping" on the colors just as the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping will do the intensity portion of the tone mapping. 

You want all colors that can be accurately represented on the TV/projector to be accurate (with possible roll-off near the TV/projectors Gamut limits). The way to achieve this is with a 3D LUT.

You are right to be concerned with the fact that the TV/projector cannot get to Rec 2020. That is where the calibration software ability to roll off (or possibly clamp) colors outside the Gamut of the TV/projector comes in. While I have not used it yet, Lightspace has this capability, and I am sure Calman will add it (if not already in - not sure).

So to have the image look as good as it can within the limits of the TV/projector you need to do the 3D LUT calibration, and you have to make some trade-offs of color roll-off beyond the Gamut of the TV/projector of maybe a hard clip of colors at the Gamut extent. The same applies to intensity beyond the capability of the TV/projector and you would use the Radiance Pro's upcoming HDR Intensity Mapping for that.


----------



## jrp

tibia said:


> I use Lumagen Pro and Chromapure to calibrate my RS600. When I load a 4K disc with HDR the projector automatically selects Gamma D. Does anyone know if such an extreme gamma profile as Gamma D presents a conflict with Lumagen and Chromapure? Or would I be better off manually selecting Gamma Normal or Gamma A before running Chromapure Auto Calibrate?


The Gamma you choose in the projector/TV does not matter as far as the Radiance Pro pipeline at default settings is concerned.

When you calibrate, the TV/projector Gamma does affect the calibration since the measured x,y Y points will change verses a different Gamma, but the calibration software 3D LUT generation will use these measured points to generate the 3D LUT appropriate for the setting you chose.

Note, as with all calibration, a poor choice of settings in the TV/projector can force unnecessarily large corrections in the 3D LUT which in turn can reduce the effective precision of the image. In an extreme case this can cause contouring. I think this is the issue you are asking about and means you should choose a "reasonable" Gamma profile in the TV/projector and not an "extreme" profile before you calibrate.


----------



## Duke_

Duke_ said:


> Hi All,
> 
> 
> I currently have a Radiance Pro calibrated using Chromapure. I'm looking to switch to a MacBook pro and understand people have successfully used Chromapure using Parallels for mac but I don't know if I'll be able to update the firmware on the radiance pro. Can anyone confirm if this is possible? Any advice or success stories appreciated.
> 
> 
> Thanks


Just a follow up - I can update the Radiance Pro in Parallels and calibrate my Mac screen fine using X-rite's software. When trying to calibrate using Chromapure I'm told that my meter's serial number doesn't match my software licence however when running on a regular PC it works ok. I've a 2016 MacBook Pro so using USB-C & an adapter - the X-rite i1 display pro is recognised fine in windows and Mac. I've tried reinstalling chromapure and the Xrite drivers. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful.
Thanks in advance


----------



## SJHT

Not sure about Chromapure, but I know that Lightspace only works with OEM meters and won't work otherwise (even if you have the exact meter but sold differently). You should contact Chromapure support. SJ


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

SJHT said:


> Not sure about Chromapure, but I know that Lightspace only works with OEM meters and won't work otherwise (even if you have the exact meter but sold differently). You should contact Chromapure support. SJ


Hi, 

There is a alternative connection method to use LightSpace (DPS or any license level) with X-Rite i1Display PRO Retail, SpectraCAL C6, SpectraCAL C6-HDR, HP DreamColor, NEC SpectraSensor Pro, Quato Silver Haze 3, ColorMukni Display additionally from the meters LightSpace already supporting.

Contact me here for more details: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Duke_ said:


> Just a follow up - I can update the Radiance Pro in Parallels and calibrate my Mac screen fine using X-rite's software. When trying to calibrate using Chromapure I'm told that my meter's serial number doesn't match my software licence however when running on a regular PC it works ok. I've a 2016 MacBook Pro so using USB-C & an adapter - the X-rite i1 display pro is recognised fine in windows and Mac. I've tried reinstalling chromapure and the Xrite drivers. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Hi, try to uninstall the X-Rite Device Manager and try again with ChromaPure.


----------



## Duke_

For anyone else using a mac and Chromapure I've not got the meter working using windows via bootcamp. I'm sure with a bit of persistence it could work with parallels but I'm pleased I can now connect and calibrate as before.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I would not use Auto Calibrate of 3D Lut for HDR, simply because there is no Display on the market that covers whole Rec. 2020 Gamut, therefore Autocalibration simply won't be able to find that delta required to do the matching bit, all your points will be unmatched, simply because there is no 100% correct reference for this. HDR calibration you have to do this manually, and trying bringing down delta error as much as you can, and they would be more than 2% for sure. I am about to receive my Oppo UDP-203 so I'll be able to calibrate mine RS400 via LumagenPro4444 and will post calibration results in the separate thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...4-2015-models-calibration-results-thread.html


Hi, REC.2020 is only being used as container, all current UHD movies has been mastered using DCI-P3 colorspace with D65 White Point, so colors beyond that gamut coverage are not being used (currently); there no plans to been used soon since there no display in consumer market to be able to reproduce them. 

Even 30inch 4K Sony BVM-X300 (OLED) which is being used for movies mastering @ 1.000 or 1.100 nits; not all the panels can reach 100% DCI-P3 gamut coverage.


----------



## jrp

jrp said:


> The ability to roll back the HDMI 2.0 input chip software (provided by the chip vendor) is not in the earlier releases. Testing here shows the new code is better than the old input chip code and we do not expect it would be needed.
> 
> No reason to spend time on this unless it becomes necessary. However, if it became necessary, we would have a special release to change the input chip's code back to the earlier release.


Looking like there are issues for some people with the new 18 GHz input chip microcode from the chip vendor. Will be doing a "roll-back" in the next Radiance Pro release for this microcode to the previous version. 

Frustrating as continued 18 GHz debug efforts mean more delay for the HDR Intensity Mapping.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> Looking like there are issues for some people with the new 18 GHz input chip microcode from the chip vendor. Will be doing a "roll-back" in the next Radiance Pro release for this microcode to the previous version.
> 
> Frustrating as continued 18 GHz debug efforts mean more delay for the HDR Intensity Mapping.


JRP -

Can you elaborate on the issues?
I don't think I'm having any, just curious.

Mike


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> JRP -
> 
> Can you elaborate on the issues?
> I don't think I'm having any, just curious.
> 
> Mike


+1...would be good to know any ghosts we chase down may already have their source known...


----------



## dlinsley

*Automatic projector modes via RS232 info?*

IIRC the Radiance outputs information about the incoming stream on the RS232 port. Has anyone parsed this info to then automate switching projector modes or lens memories etc? I was thinking for HDR it would be great to auto switch to a mode with the iris more open etc.


----------



## slackmack

I am considering replacing my RS1 with the JVC RS420. My current setup uses a Lumagen Radiance XD and Prismasonic 1500 anamorphic lens for 2.35 content. If I upgrade to the RS420, my XD will not support 4k or 3D as is, so it must be replaced or removed from the setup. So I can either upgrade to a Lumagen Pro series or remove the video processor all together. The former is a budgetary concern at this point, so I am wondering what the Pro series is really offering with the newer equipment being sold. If the 420 feature a 2.35 AR setting that can be used with my lens, do I really need a video processor, or the lens? I am also upgrading to one of the Yamaha Aventure AVRs to support 4k, 3D, Atmos, etc. I need advice on choosing my replacement equipment. I'd appreciate your opinions.


----------



## Mike_WI

slackmack said:


> I am considering replacing my RS1 with the JVC RS420. My current setup uses a Lumagen Radiance XD and Prismasonic 1500 anamorphic lens for 2.35 content. If I upgrade to the RS420, my XD will not support 4k or 3D as is, so it must be replaced or removed from the setup. So I can either upgrade to a Lumagen Pro series or remove the video processor all together. The former is a budgetary concern at this point, so I am wondering what the Pro series is really offering with the newer equipment being sold. If the 420 feature a 2.35 AR setting that can be used with my lens, do I really need a video processor, or the lens? I am also upgrading to one of the Yamaha Aventure AVRs to support 4k, 3D, Atmos, etc. I need advice on choosing my replacement equipment. I'd appreciate your opinions.


I would consider the RS520 and no VP.
You can always add the Lumagen Pro later.

Mike


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> JRP -
> 
> Can you elaborate on the issues?
> I don't think I'm having any, just curious.
> 
> Mike


The chip vendor’s 18 GHz microcode issue is sometimes not locking on the input signal at the correct sampling rate on an input switch (gives a weird looking "low res" image specific to that input) and seems to affect only a couple systems. Switching to another input and back appears to resolve it.

This issue was not seen with the older microcode. So it appears to be microcode release specific and we have reported it to the chip vendor. Hopefully they can reproduce this and correct it in an upcoming release.

Given all the bug fixes in the latest 18 GHz input chip microcode, and that the issue is limited to a couple systems, we are now thinking we will not roll back the 18 GHz input chip microcode. Should it become necessary, we will replace input boards that show the issue. We may still add a way to use the older microcode should more systems show the issue.


----------



## slackmack

Mike_WI said:


> I would consider the RS520 and no VP.
> You can always add the Lumagen Pro later.
> 
> Mike


Why the RS520 in this case?


----------



## Mike_WI

slackmack said:


> Why the RS520 in this case?


Thinking about it more you could also talk to JRP about Lumagen upgrade and get one of the smaller Pro units.

RE: JVC RS420 vs 520
- 520 has higher native and dynamic contrast ratio (130K:1 vs 40K:1 and 1.3M:1 vs 400K:1)
- a few more menu / options (need to dig deep in manual to find)
- ? bit handling -- 


> With that said, the RS400 had a limitation in it's video processing where one link in the processing chain was 10 bit so the end result was only 10bit. The RS500 and RS600 have full 12bit end to end video processing.
> I wonder if we can get confirmation that the RS420 has been updated?
> The RS420 will lack the DCI filter for P3 color reproduction.


-


> All three units use the exact same 12bit DiLA panels, just like last year, but the RS400 and the RS420 uses two "last generation" wire grid polarizers and one current generation wire grid polarizer. The RS500/520 and RS600/620 use three current generation wire grid polarizers which helps account for much higher native contrast performance.


 ref

But moving up from the RS1 will be a dramatic improvement no matter what.
I just did the RS20 to RS520. Great time to upgrade.

Mike


----------



## slackmack

Mike_WI said:


> Thinking about it more you could also talk to JRP about Lumagen upgrade and get one of the smaller Pro units.
> 
> RE: JVC RS420 vs 520
> - 520 has higher native and dynamic contrast ratio (130K:1 vs 40K:1 and 1.3M:1 vs 400K:1)
> - a few more menu / options (need to dig deep in manual to find)
> - ? bit handling --
> 
> - ref
> 
> But moving up from the RS1 will be a dramatic improvement no matter what.
> I just did the RS20 to RS520. Great time to upgrade.
> 
> Mike


Thanks. A lot to think about


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> The chip vendor’s 18 GHz microcode issue is sometimes not locking on the input signal at the correct sampling rate on an input switch (gives a weird looking "low res" image specific to that input) and seems to affect only a couple systems. Switching to another input and back appears to resolve it.


So this issue only if you use the 18G input, if you use the 9G input and 18G output there is no issue.??

ss


----------



## ScottJ

dlinsley said:


> IIRC the Radiance outputs information about the incoming stream on the RS232 port. Has anyone parsed this info to then automate switching projector modes or lens memories etc? I was thinking for HDR it would be great to auto switch to a mode with the iris more open etc.


Yes, I do this, though not for HDR (as I'm stuck in the past). My control system is all custom software that I wrote. When the Radiance sends a 3D signal, I switch my JVC projector to high lamp and fully opened iris.

But doesn't your projector already do something like that?


----------



## dlinsley

ScottJ said:


> Yes, I do this, though not for HDR (as I'm stuck in the past). My control system is all custom software that I wrote. When the Radiance sends a 3D signal, I switch my JVC projector to high lamp and fully opened iris.
> 
> But doesn't your projector already do something like that?


For some reason JVC declined to change the color space automatically. I could leave the filter in place always, and just have the Radiance to the conversion - and I may start there, as it will gets things going quickly for my daughter. She's 9 and just starts up the movie room by herself on a Saturday morning 

I've also never seen my JVC auto switch to a different user mode for 3D, and I'd like to open the iris for that. High lamp is too loud, but I was running -13/-12 and so could run with it a lot more open for 3D/HDR.


----------



## SJHT

It will switch in THX for 3D automatically to high lamp mode


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Question addressed to Jim really,
Jim can you please let us know, whether you'll implement Darbee on 4K source?
http://www.ingearpr.com/DarbeeVision/160614.html it looks like they've done implementation for 4k sources.
Thank you in advance.


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Question addressed to Jim really,
> Jim can you please let us know, whether you'll implement Darbee on 4K source?
> http://www.ingearpr.com/DarbeeVision/160614.html it looks like they've done implementation for 4k sources.
> Thank you in advance.


It's buried in the history here, but it's hard to find. As we have always said we have no plans to implement 4k Darbee.

We do have plans to implement 4k detail enhancements.


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> So this issue only if you use the 18G input, if you use the 9G input and 18G output there is no issue.??
> 
> ss


The microcode update applies to 18 GHz input only. We do not have any new microcode for the 9 GHz parts. There is a pending new microcode release for 18 GHz outputs, but it is not official yet and is not in our Pro software.

I do not want to overstate the 18 GHz issue. They are working fine for almost everyone - although cable issues at 18 GHz are a step up from 9 GHz issues. So HDMI cabling is even more critical at 18 GHz than they are at 9 GHz.


----------



## thrang

Has anyone connected Calman Home Theater to the Pro lately? It worked a few months ago, and now I get connection errors, even with the newest Calman released today

Chromapure on the same laptop, same cable, works fine.


----------



## alex_t

thrang said:


> Has anyone connected Calman Home Theater to the Pro lately? It worked a few months ago, and now I get connection errors, even with the newest Calman released today
> 
> Chromapure on the same laptop, same cable, works fine.


Hello,

Have you checked with ECHO at ON in Radiance PRO ? I know ECHO has to set at OFF for Chromapure to make the connection working with the PRO.

I might be the cause of your issue.

Alexandre


----------



## alex_t

jrp said:


> It's buried in the history here, but it's hard to find. As we have always said we have no plans to implement 4k Darbee.
> 
> We do have plans to implement 4k detail enhancements.


Hello Jim,

Could give us an approximate schedule for detail enhancements and noises reduction features ?

Thanks

Alexandre


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Has anyone connected Calman Home Theater to the Pro lately? It worked a few months ago, and now I get connection errors, even with the newest Calman released today
> 
> Chromapure on the same laptop, same cable, works fine.


Yeah, I used the latest version of Calman the other night without any connection issues.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> I do not want to overstate the 18 GHz issue. They are working fine for almost everyone - although cable issues at 18 GHz are a step up from 9 GHz issues. So HDMI cabling is even more critical at 18 GHz than they are at 9 GHz.


Yikes. I just installed a new 4K projector and the high speed cable I'd been using on the previous 4K projector simply refused to work. Fortunately, I had the previous "slower" cable, that wouldn't work on the older projector, still available to the new projector and it is working just fine, and at all 4K resolutions/frame rates. I hate HDMI so much. 

Edit: I'm still using 9GHz cards at the moment.


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Yikes. I just installed a new 4K projector and the high speed cable I'd been using on the previous 4K projector simply refused to work. Fortunately, I had the previous "slower" cable, that wouldn't work on the older projector, still available to the new projector and it is working just fine, and at all 4K resolutions/frame rates. I hate HDMI so much.
> 
> Edit: I'm still using 9GHz cards at the moment.


What cables are they Mark?


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> What cables are they Mark?


The one [which] should work, but doesn't, is a Cablesson Maestro 10M cable, specced to support 18GHz.

The one that does work, but shouldn't, is an old Bettercables 10M 1.4a cable.

Go figure!

I think that once there are a bunch of well tested HDMI 2.1 cables available, I'll look to switch, but for now I have a working solution, so won't tinker with it.


----------



## thrang

Yes it was echo off - I guess in a firmware update it was reset as I hadn't been in the rs232 menu at all

Thanks


----------



## sillysally

Wookii said:


> Yeah, I used the latest version of Calman the other night without any connection issues.


Latest Calman and Lightspace work fine with the Default settings in the Pro.
Both for uploading a 3DLUT and as a color patch generator.

ss


----------



## SJHT

thrang said:


> Yes it was echo off - I guess in a firmware update it was reset as I hadn't been in the rs232 menu at all
> 
> Thanks


I've never touched anything in that menu and it always worked. Did it get reset in a firmware update to something but the default? SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

http://lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro022017.zip

*Beta 022017- Output color precision improved. Fix for incorrect EDID on Pro inputs. Power-on to picture time was improved by 10 secs. Fixup of Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Type menu not allowing RGB-PC output type to be set. Some improvement on input switching. Added minimum fan speed setting in Other: Fan control menu. High temperature warning raised to 105C. Added two button command (Alt then Prev) to restart HDMI outputs 1-4 and is useful for systems where displays have occasional difficulty locking on to a signal. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at    [email protected] .
** Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware*


----------



## SJHT

Gordon,
Any progress on your LightSpace/Lumagen Pro manual? Given the horrible results I got, I went back to Calman for now. Would like to get some basic information on how to create a basic 3D Lut using the software and the pro... Then I can move on to your current manual for doing the conversions... Thanks. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I've been away from office for a couple of weeks on business trip and short holiday to Orkney islands off north coast of scotland. Back in convergent hq now but very busy for next two to three weeks. I will try to get somethign down in this period though

Gordon


----------



## BrolicBeast

Very eager new Pro 4446 owner w/18Gz cards here. It's actually sitting at home--just arrived today. What is the preferred calibration software to use with the Pro for calibrating 4k/HDR? Calman? Chromapure? Lightspace? Also, measuring equipment recommendations?

Update:

Received and installed in rack! Unboxing Video has been shot--I haven't had a Lumagen device since the RadianceMini3D, so I can't wait to really dive into this thing of beauty! Shout out to @jrp for being just plain awesome, from explaining 18Ghz to making cable recommendations.










--Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

BrolicBeast said:


> Very eager new Pro 4446 owner w/18Gz cards here. It's actually sitting at home--just arrived today. What is the preferred calibration software to use with the Pro for calibrating 4k/HDR? Calman? Chromapure? Lightspace? Also, measuring equipment recommendations?
> 
> Update:
> 
> Received and installed in rack! Unboxing Video has been shot--I haven't had a Lumagen device since the RadianceMini3D, so I can't wait to really dive into this thing of beauty! Shout out to @jrp for being just plain awesome, from explaining 18Ghz to making cable recommendations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.


You can use all above mentioned, Chromapure does provide calibration for reference of Rec.2020 white, I think Tom still works on auto calibration for HDR via Lumagen Pro series and it is in progress, however Lightspace does give you auto calibration 3d LUT via Lumagen. Not sure about Calman though, but all 3 gives you ability to manually calibrate over Rec. 2020, also Chroma Pure has detailed how to in their updated manual for version 3.0, I had mine Lumagen Pro 4444 for half of a year and must say I'm very happy with the unit, firmware upgrades are released quite quick and Jim with his team are doing awesome job as usual. I haven't calibrated min RS400 yet for HDR but will do once back from Spain, will put some calibration results in a separate thread.


----------



## SJHT

Beta 022317- Adds 12 bit color to 420 inputs on 18Ghz cards. Fixup for "ZY46" serial port command used with some calibration software. Fixed Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match to always use 59.94/23.98 when set to "No". Fixup on hdcp warning message being displayed too quickly in some situations. Small bug fixed in Fan Control menu. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## Mark_H

I notice that Dither is now active, but with multiple options... Anybody understand them?


----------



## SJHT

Is there anyway to show the hdmi bit rate (8, 10, 12) of the input and output signals? I know the info screen has resolution, color depth. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Eventidal

SJHT said:


> Is there anyway to show the hdmi bit rate (8, 10, 12) of the input and output signals? I know the info screen has resolution, color depth. Thanks. SJ


On the 3rd Info Screen under bp (bit plane). I think that is the input signal.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 022417*

FW Beta 022417

* Beta 022417*- *Global: Audio: Mute Control *menu was broken in 022017-022317. 
Bugfix for switching issue in 022017-022317 on 18Ghz inputs that could give loss of video or strange colors. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Jeroen1000

I've done a search in the thread but I'm still not quite sure. So here goes 

Will the pro be able to upscale 1080p to 4K and twist/convert rec.709 YCbCr to rec.2020 YCbCr and set the info frame so that the display decodes using the rec.2020 matrix? Hence, I could use a 1080p pattern generator to calibrate rec.2020 capable (well, displays that accept rec.2020 I mean) displays. 

And does this work with a simple matrix or is there more required?


----------



## OMARDRIS

Jeroen1000 said:


> I've done a search in the thread but I'm still not quite sure. So here goes
> 
> Will the pro be able to upscale 1080p to 4K and twist/convert rec.709 YCbCr to rec.2020 YCbCr and set the info frame so that the display decodes using the rec.2020 matrix? Hence, I could use a 1080p pattern generator to calibrate rec.2020 capable (well, displays that accept rec.2020 I mean) displays.
> 
> And does this work with a simple matrix or is there more required?


Hi,
The Radiance Pro has a built-in pattern generator that can also provide HDR-capable displays with 4k and the necessary metadata for HDR/BT2020.
I do not quite understand why you want to connect the Radiance Pro yet another 1080p pattern generator. Does this have a specific reason?
Peter


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Jeroen

As Peter has said. Yes you can do what you want easily. You just set the colourspace of the CMS bank in use to be either AUTO (what comes in goes out) or it can be set manually to HDR/REC2020, SDR/REC2020, SDR/709, SDR/601


----------



## Jeroen1000

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> The Radiance Pro has a built-in pattern generator that can also provide HDR-capable displays with 4k and the necessary metadata for HDR/BT2020.
> I do not quite understand why you want to connect the Radiance Pro yet another 1080p pattern generator. Does this have a specific reason?
> Peter


You do make an excellent point. I was actually looking for a way to reuse the 'old' TPG and missed this obvious fact!


----------



## BrolicBeast

Lumagen Radiance Pro Unboxing Video is LIVE!!! Covers unboxing, rack ear installation, and rack installation.

Planning on shooting a whole video series on this product. I did a few videos on my previous Lumagen product--the Radiance Mini3D and I always wish I had done more.


----------



## Jeroen1000

Gordon Fraser said:


> Jeroen
> 
> As Peter has said. Yes you can do what you want easily. You just set the colourspace of the CMS bank in use to be either AUTO (what comes in goes out) or it can be set manually to HDR/REC2020, SDR/REC2020, SDR/709, SDR/601


Hi Gordon. I've read that I can calibrate to rec.2020 (as far as the display gets). But say I send in 1080p rec.709 because 99% of my content will be encoded as rec.709. And as we know, rec.2020 envelops rec.709. 

So 2 options come to mind:
*Option 1:*
- have a calibrated display for rec.709
- AND have a calibrated display for rec.2020

So 2 CMS memories required. Lumagen will have to recognize the YCbCr flavour (or the source must single it using flags) and activate the correct CMS memory
*Option 2 *(this one I don't get, does it even exist?)

1) Rec.709 YCbCr gets reencoded (twisted to) as rec.2020 YCbCr + upscaled to 4K by the lumagen and the display decodes it to RGB using rec.2020 matrix. The Lumagen has taken care that all x,y,Y fall within the 709 triangle as part of that reencode.
2) Rec.709 gets upscaled to 4K by the lumagen (and sent with the rec.709 flag) and now the display will have to take care that the x,y,Y fall within the rec.709 triangle

Now that taking care of part aka reencode. IF this is a real option is it then a simple, lossless, matrix thing or a compute heavy lossy thing? To be more specific with an example: full RGB red 8 bit = 235,16,16. The reencode would be for instance yield 213,16,16 for a rec.2020 gamut (but then output as 10-bit 4K rec.2020).

edit: clarification 213,16,16 represents the rec.709 red primary at 100% stim. 100% sat. triplet is made up

I hope this makes sense?


----------



## G-Rex

Has anyone noticed added video noise when adding a Lumagen Radiance Pro? I read a couple of reports of it, and not sure if it's just a very isolated/uncommon issue.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

G-Rex said:


> Has anyone noticed added video noise when adding a Lumagen Radiance Pro? I read a couple of reports of it, and not sure if it's just a very isolated/uncommon issue.


I have never seen any added video noise when a Radiance Pro has been added to a system. There have been a couple of issues with some errors being introduced in previous firmwares (only visible in some specific circumstances) but these are now resolved with the latest precision updates in current firmware.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Jeroen1000 said:


> Hi Gordon. I've read that I can calibrate to rec.2020 (as far as the display gets). But say I send in 1080p rec.709 because 99% of my content will be encoded as rec.709. And as we know, rec.2020 envelops rec.709.
> 
> So 2 options come to mind:
> *Option 1:*
> - have a calibrated display for rec.709
> - AND have a calibrated display for rec.2020
> 
> So 2 CMS memories required. Lumagen will have to recognize the YCbCr flavour (or the source must single it using flags) and activate the correct CMS memory
> *Option 2 *(this one I don't get, does it even exist?)
> 
> 1) Rec.709 YCbCr gets reencoded (twisted to) as rec.2020 YCbCr + upscaled to 4K by the lumagen and the display decodes it to RGB using rec.2020 matrix. The Lumagen has taken care that all x,y,Y fall within the 709 triangle as part of that reencode.
> 2) Rec.709 gets upscaled to 4K by the lumagen (and sent with the rec.709 flag) and now the display will have to take care that the x,y,Y fall within the rec.709 triangle
> 
> Now that taking care of part aka reencode. IF this is a real option is it then a simple, lossless, matrix thing or a compute heavy lossy thing? To be more specific with an example: full RGB red 8 bit = 235,16,16. The reencode would be for instance yield 213,16,16 for a rec.2020 gamut (but then output as 10-bit 4K rec.2020).
> 
> edit: clarification 213,16,16 represents the rec.709 red primary at 100% stim. 100% sat. triplet is made up
> 
> I hope this makes sense?



The CMS banks can output infro frames to a display to tell it what sort of colour format is being sent. They are as i have posted above. The lumagen has SUB memory CMS settings for incoming 601/709 or HDR/REC2020 or 3D.

The matrix for the maths for YCbCr is correct for 601/709 or 2020 dependant on which you choose.

You cannot input a 709 1080p signal and output it as a REC2020 matrix with colourspace mapping like you are suggesting unless you apply a LUT. Sending 100percent red stimulus and saturation level in 709 maths will result in a 100 percent stimulus and saturation output signal in rec2020 maths I believe. If you use a calibration tool to profile the display in question you can of course do what you are asking and that is what i do all the time. With some dispays they even swap their memories or colour profiles with no user intervention when you send differing info frames, making it quite simple to do two calibration profiles with no user intervention required once initial set up is done.

Gordon


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 022517 Update*

FW Beta 022517 Update

*Beta 022517*
- Bug fixed in 022017-022417 firmware which allowed unit temperature to creep up too high. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Jeroen1000

Gordon Fraser said:


> [...]
> 
> You cannot input a 709 1080p signal and output it as a REC2020 matrix with colourspace mapping like you are suggesting unless you apply a LUT. [...]
> Gordon


I'm playing way out my comprehension leauge here but I found a legitimate looking technical resource which claims to do the 'tone mapping' (which is just a fancy name for colorspace correction and luminance correction, right?) from rec.709 to rec.2020. Come to think of it I must send it to Jim. Anyway, does not this show a way to do it without a LUT? To me it looks like a bunch of math that can be executed without any measuring.

Now I'll let the smarter people comment on it. It's in attachment for your convenience.

ps: don't mean to be impolite, just making discussion as this is AVS


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Yes i am sure it's perfectly do-able in maths. My comment that you cannot do it was that you cannot do it with the Lumagen as it stands, not that it is not possible. I'll see if i can get Jim to comment. However...

As displays do not do rec709 properly and none do REC2020 accurately the notion that you would get accurate end display by sending in 1080P REC709 then mapping that to be accurate within a REC2020 colourspace when the display is not going to be accurate for REC2020 in the first place seems like a waste of time. In fact, you are much more likely to get an accurate rec709 display by using the displays rec709 setting rather than trying to do a simple conversion to fit in to the broken 2020 colourspace. As i say, doing the conversion using a LUT is a different level of end result to what you are talking about I feel. I'm not a maths god so i may be wrong. Perhaps if it's a simple low gate use thing Lumagen may consider it...they are VERY open to suggestions from customers and potential customers so if folk think it's a good idea, email lumagen and let them know.


----------



## jrp

Jeroen1000:

The Radiance Pro can do what you are asking as Gordon points out However, as Gordon mentioned, there are some details you should know. I sent the following to you by email but thought it good to add to Gordon's reply here as well:

The Radiance Pro does not in its default state convert the data. This is done by the 3D LUT calibration. You set up the system, and then do a color calibration measurement run. Then you create a 3D LUT targeting the correct Primary points for the color space you want to output.

A projector in Rec2020 mode should only ever be calibrated to Rec 2020 primary “targets.” Then, even though it cannot hit the Rec 2020 targets, assuming its Gamut is at least P3, it will show P3 images correctly when the Pro sends “Rec 2020” mode info frames for P3 sources. Note that by default when outputting HDR or Rec2020, the CMS1 memory is used.

With the same projector settings, and calibration measurements, you can create a 3D LUT for Rec709 source to be correct. Note that by default when outputting SDR Rec 709, the CMS0 memory is used.

UHD “P3” movies are put in a Rec2020 container. So the source would send the Pro HDMI info frames for Rec 2020 for these sources. Generally HDR and Rec2020 are both on or both off for UHD sources. 

Note, if you have a P3 source that is not reported as Rec2020 (perhaps a photo or non-standard video source), the Pro can be setup for that to be output correctly and you can output it as “non Rec 2020” and in this case create a 3D LUT targeting P3 primaries if you want to. You would program this for a separate configuration memory (perhaps MEMB pointing to CMS2 with its “Color Space” as SDR709), using the Output Setup Menu.


----------



## jrp

G-Rex said:


> Has anyone noticed added video noise when adding a Lumagen Radiance Pro? I read a couple of reports of it, and not sure if it's just a very isolated/uncommon issue.


As Gordon mentioned there was a precision issue for some HDR image cases (SDR was fine) that was reported to us. This has been resolved in the last couple releases. So an update to the latest Radiance Pro release (022517 as I write this) would resolve this.


----------



## Jeroen1000

Gordon Fraser said:


> Yes i am sure it's perfectly do-able in maths. My comment that you cannot do it was that you cannot do it with the Lumagen as it stands, not that it is not possible. I'll see if i can get Jim to comment. However...
> 
> As displays do not do rec709 properly and none do REC2020 accurately the notion that you would get accurate end display by sending in 1080P REC709 then mapping that to be accurate within a REC2020 colourspace when the display is not going to be accurate for REC2020 in the first place seems like a waste of time. In fact, you are much more likely to get an accurate rec709 display by using the displays rec709 setting rather than trying to do a simple conversion to fit in to the broken 2020 colourspace. As i say, doing the conversion using a LUT is a different level of end result to what you are talking about I feel. I'm not a maths god so i may be wrong. Perhaps if it's a simple low gate use thing Lumagen may consider it...they are VERY open to suggestions from customers and potential customers so if folk think it's a good idea, email lumagen and let them know.


I certainly will. My angle is more ... Say you get perfect x,y,Y for the 100% stim. 100% sat. red primary in Rec.709. So x= 0.64 and y=0.33. Y is relative to D65 white Y so lets keep that out of the picture. 
It could then be trivial (for video engineers) to transform these values to rec.2020 red primary x,y and subsequently offset that within that (rec.2020/P3..) gamut so that you land at x,y values that will show the rec.709 red. After all rec.2020 envelops rec.709 and all this stuff is relative to the white point.

Assumptions: 

- rec.709 calibration is good
- display is linear (which negates the use for a LUT somewhat)

LUT will probably be superior. Seeing the effort it requires that's a good thing.


----------



## Jeroen1000

jrp said:


> Jeroen1000:
> 
> A projector in Rec2020 mode should only ever be calibrated to Rec 2020 primary “targets.” Then, even though it cannot hit the Rec 2020 targets, assuming its Gamut is at least P3, it will show P3 images correctly when the Pro sends “Rec 2020” mode info frames for P3 sources. Note that by default when outputting HDR or Rec2020, the CMS1 memory is used.
> 
> .


I really like your well thought off answers. Kudo's for the patience you display at answering all these questions. But that statement makes no sense to me. Calman/Chromapure/Lightspace will never succeed at getting to rec.2020 chromaticities for the primaries (the "targets"). So sending a P3 full red in a rec.2020 container will make it land somewhere between P3 and rec.2020. Somewhere depending on how close you get with your display. The further you get, the more wrong it becomes. I feel like I'm missing something important here

ps: how do you feel about the pdf I linked Gordon. It is something useful in your opinion?
*
*


----------



## jrp

Jeroen1000:

The document you linked is important and allows one to convert Rec 709 to a "Rec 2020 container."

We decided to instead use a 3D LUT and calibration since:

Such a conversion is not needed if Rec 709 source is displayed with the TV/Projector in Rec 709 color Gamut mode.

It is true that the Radiance Pro can tell the TV/projector to be in Rec 2020 mode for a Rec 709 source. So, the conversions in the document you reference could be applied. However, if the TV/projector is not calibrated the conversion is only as accurate as the TV/projector is. So calibration is still important. The calibration generates a 3D LUT that encompasses the conversion document you reference with no additional hardware, and is more accurate due to the 3D LUT calibration positioning all the 4913 points in the RGB color cube.

===== 

If you calibrate with a 3D LUT, it is up to the calibration software to "tone map" the color Gamut of the TV/projector as reasonably as possible for a Rec 2020 source. Note that this is not the topic of the document you reference.

When done correctly, all colors the TV/Projector can reproduce in its Rec 2020 mode, will be accurate, except near the limits of the TV/projector Gamut the calibration software may "roll off" the response rather than "clamp" at the Gamut extents.

Obviously the TV/projector cannot reproduce a color beyond the limits of its Gamut. So those colors are in error, but if "those colors" are not in the source all colors in the source can be accurately represented.

For example: At this time movies use the P3 (or DCI) color Gamut. So a TV/projector with a Gamut at, or beyond, P3 can reproduce all the colors in P3 movies and programs accurately when calibrated with a 3D LUT to Rec 2020 primary points, even though it cannot reproduce the Rec 2020 primary points. The fact that the 17x17x17 3D LUT has 4913 points spread throughout the color cube means it can accurately set any points within the cube that can be represented within the TV/projector Gamut. Only the points outside the TV/projector Gamut cannot be accurately set due to the physical limits of the TV/projector and these points would then map to the extreme Gamut points of the TV/projector.

Consider points on the green primary vector for a TV that reaches 80% of the Rec 2020 green. Points in the color cube on the green vector up to a 75% green vector point can be accurate. The remaining points on this green vector map the remaining input range to the same or nearly the same color point in the TV. So as an approximation of this example, 75% input green may map to 95% output green to the TV and correctly represent the 75% Rec 2020 input green vector color on the TV. Then the 81.25% 87.5%, 93.75%, and 100% green vector input 3D LUT control points may all map to 100% output green to the TV.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 022617 Update*

FW Beta 022617 Update

*Beta 022617*
- Fix for a Roku compatibility problem causing picture loss that has been in the last few updates. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Jeroen1000

Yes both topics are distinct. I think that the first option (so sans lut) would be convenient for people that have a good rec.709 calibration and occasionally want to view rec.2020 (or at some point vice versa). On the other hand I can see why a LUT has been chosen for its accuracy. I'm not asking you to implement it, but is it something you were planning? Don't know what it costs in terms of logic gates etc...


For part II

You say films are currently using P3 but in a rec.2020 container. How would (or could) a P3 film ever want to address a colour outside of the P3 gamut? That does not seem logical. Regarding the example you have explained: You seem to say that content is already using points in the rec.2020 gamut. We cannot get to these points so the 75% point of rec.2020 would be mapped to the 95% point green of the P3 gamut so that all points up to 75% of rec.2020 are accurate. The larger the gamut grows beyond P3, the smaller the largest of the 2 percentages gets in your example (so 95% becomes 90% etc..) and the accuracy then of course increases. 

But since content is P3 and not rec.2020 why not make 75% green point the 75% green P3 point where it belongs? Ergo, do not calibrate to rec.2020 but to P3?I understand your example but that does only make sense if the content is rec.2020 gamut and it gets displayed on a P3 screen. Well, unless it is impossible to calibrate to P3 for some reason I'm unaware of. It also does not appear to be an option to calibrate to P3 in Calman. Off to google I go

note: the only way it would make sense is that when the current crop of rec.2020 encoded P3 (don't know if that is an accurate description) will get decoded to P3 points if the rec.2020 matrix is used. But then still, it should not yield any points outside P3 gamut. If these calculations are designed as an offset from the rec.2020 green, then I somewhat get the point of calibrating to P3.


----------



## Kamikaze_Ice

Jeroen1000 said:


> Yes both topics are distinct. I think that the first option (so sans lut) would be convenient for people that have a good rec.709 calibration and occasionally want to view rec.2020 (or at some point vice versa). On the other hand I can see why a LUT has been chosen for its accuracy. I'm not asking you to implement it, but is it something you were planning? Don't know what it costs in terms of logic gates etc...
> 
> 
> For part II
> 
> You say films are currently using P3 but in a rec.2020 container. How would (or could) a P3 film ever want to address a colour outside of the P3 gamut? That does not seem logical. Regarding the example you have explained: You seem to say that content is already using points in the rec.2020 gamut. We cannot get to these points so the 75% point of rec.2020 would be mapped to the 95% point green of the P3 gamut so that all points up to 75% of rec.2020 are accurate. The larger the gamut grows beyond P3, the smaller the largest of the 2 percentages gets in your example (so 95% becomes 90% etc..) and the accuracy then of course increases.
> 
> But since content is P3 and not rec.2020 why not make 75% green point the 75% green P3 point where it belongs? Ergo, do not calibrate to rec.2020 but to P3?I understand your example but that does only make sense if the content is rec.2020 gamut and it gets displayed on a P3 screen. Well, unless it is impossible to calibrate to P3 for some reason I'm unaware of. It also does not appear to be an option to calibrate to P3 in Calman. Off to google I go
> 
> note: the only way it would make sense is that when the current crop of rec.2020 encoded P3 (don't know if that is an accurate description) will get decoded to P3 points if the rec.2020 matrix is used. But then still, it should not yield any points outside P3 gamut. If these calculations are designed as an offset from the rec.2020 green, then I somewhat get the point of calibrating to P3.


What's not logical is trying to address a color outside of the gamut of the device being used to create content IN that color space. 
Your foot can fit in a bigger shoe without your foot changing size. This is a similar relation to that of between DCI-P3(your foot) and rec.2020 (a shoe larger than your foot).
DCI-P3 was taken as a hold-over while we make progression to cover all of rec.2020. This gives the film industry that safe and warm and cozy feeling of "we're meeting this standard, look at 'dat %!" It's the current reference until rec.2020 can take it's place. Then something else will replace it, and so on, gradually increasing until we can reproduce even invisible light from our displays.


----------



## SJHT

Just curious and probably a stupid question, but when we get all of the shaping LUT, etc. I should be able to have my projector stay on the same configuration when watching REC 709 material or REC 2020 material as the Pro will switch between CMS profiles? Maybe that's the point of all of this! Would make things so much easier as now when I'm using my Strato, the title/movie view displays in REC709 4K60 and then I select an HDR movie (4K24 HDR REC2020), I have to select a different config on my projector or use the default provided, but when I go back to the movie title view, it continues to display in the HDR mode until I select the projector memory to get things correct again.... SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

SJHT said:


> Just curious and probably a stupid question, but when we get all of the shaping LUT, etc. I should be able to have my projector stay on the same configuration when watching REC 709 material or REC 2020 material as the Pro will switch between CMS profiles? Maybe that's the point of all of this! Would make things so much easier as now when I'm using my Strato, the title/movie view displays in REC709 4K60 and then I select an HDR movie (4K24 HDR REC2020), I have to select a different config on my projector or use the default provided, but when I go back to the movie title view, it continues to display in the HDR mode until I select the projector memory to get things correct again.... SJ


Great question.

Mike


----------



## dlinsley

*Video and Audio together with the 18GHz output?*

I've finally been able to get my system back up and running and have been playing with feeding the video output from the Radiance into my receiver (Anthem MRX-1120) so that the OSD controls show. I'm using the 18G in/out cards, and get 4k60 from a Roku to my JVC RS600 via 40' Monoprice Cabernet cables!

However, using output 2 (output 1 is audio only) when I set it to Both, my receiver only gets 2 channel PCM (from my Oppo player). Using output 1 to the receiver and then output 2 to the projector, the receiver gets the correct bitstream. Is this just a bug in the Radiance or just not possible yet since we don't have the full audio EDID controls of the XD/XE era? I'm going to try hooking output 1 up to another input on the receiver to see if that fools it as the Radiance manual does talk about how the audio EDID is read by Output 1.

Edit: Confirmed that running output 1 to an unused input on the Anthem (I'm only using 1 of 7, as the Radiance does the switching) fixes it. @jrp is this something that can be fixed in future? Though after running the cable in the rack all nice and tidy, I'll probably never remove it


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Try MENU 0943 with Lumagen remote then MENU:SAVESAVE SAVE 

This sets a global audio edid to sources of ALL possible audio formats. It might work without that secondary cable attached


----------



## dlinsley

Gordon Fraser said:


> Try MENU 0943 with Lumagen remote then MENU:SAVESAVE SAVE
> 
> This sets a global audio edid to sources of ALL possible audio formats. It might work without that secondary cable attached


Thank you Gordon, I've confirmed that also works.


----------



## StephenBishop

BrolicBeast said:


> Lumagen Radiance Pro Unboxing Video is LIVE!!! Covers unboxing, rack ear installation, and rack installation.
> 
> Planning on shooting a whole video series on this product. I did a few videos on my previous Lumagen product--the Radiance Mini3D and I always wish I had done more.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00jV_jQmkIQ


 Your video indicates that you were going to check whether the Radiance Pro plays nicely with a Celerity DFO cable to your projector. Have you checked this out? Does it play well?


----------



## BrolicBeast

StephenBishop said:


> Your video indicates that you were going to check whether the Radiance Pro plays nicely with a Celerity DFO cable to your projector. Have you checked this out? Does it play well?


For the moment, no they do not play well together. I have an Ethereal solution arriving this week that I'll be testing. 

--Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.


----------



## xtrips

Hello,

Me and a customer of mine have a Radiance Pro with 18Ghz full upgrades.
Every now and then when we fire up the system we get this screen with white noise, you know like snow....
Nothing helps except disconnecting from A/C for 10 seconds and back.
This is really getting weird.
Am I the only one having this problem? on 2 units?!?


----------



## BrolicBeast

xtrips said:


> Hello,
> 
> Me and a customer of mine have a Radiance Pro with 18Ghz full upgrades.
> Every now and then when we fire up the system we get this screen with white noise, you know like snow....
> Nothing helps except disconnecting from A/C for 10 seconds and back.
> This is really getting weird.
> Am I the only one having this problem? on 2 units?!?




About a month ago, I discovered that the "4k high speed w/ Ethernet" cables I ran a year ago in my ceilings do not carry an actual 4k signal from a consumer device. ''Twas upon this day, Monoprice failed me for the first time ever.

The snow symptoms you are describing (coupled with the fact that you're experiencing this on two Radiance Pro units) leads me to believe that the cable is at fault. Or, to perhaps put it better--the cable cannot handle pro-grade output frequencies at the HDMI port. I'm not an engineer in this arena, so I could be wrong--so take that with a grain of Himalayan Pink Salt.

I've experienced everything from the snow you're experiencing, to rainbow stripes viewable below. Now, more than ever, the HDMI cable must unfortunately be viewed as a true theater component instead of an accessory (and budgeted for, accordingly):

The most bizarre HDMI issue I've experienced, dubbed "The Vertical Rainbow" in my household:














Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## StephenBishop

BrolicBeast said:


> For the moment, no they do not play well together. I have an Ethereal solution arriving this week that I'll be testing.
> 
> --Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.


Was hoping it would play well. But it is good to know anyways! Looks like I will need to defer my Radiance Pro purchase as I have a 15m Celerity DFO to my Sony 5000ES which I cannot now change without a great deal of hassle. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The snow thing is almost definitely cable issue.

Gordon


----------



## BrolicBeast

StephenBishop said:


> Was hoping it would play well. But it is good to know anyways! Looks like I will need to defer my Radiance Pro purchase as I have a 15m Celerity DFO to my Sony 5000ES which I cannot now change without a great deal of hassle. Thanks for the feedback.




Mine is 80ft. One thing I have left to try is a 6' HDMI extender to normalize the output signal to something the Celerity likes. I'll be comparing that solution side-by-side with the Ethereal once the Ethereal arrives. If your Lumagen Pro purchase is hinging on the cable, I can order the HDMI extension cable sooner than later and test it out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Wookii

BrolicBeast said:


> For the moment, no they do not play well together. I have an Ethereal solution arriving this week that I'll be testing.
> 
> --Posted via Tapatalk, which actually is pretty cool.


Do you have the latest DFO connectors on the Celerity? There are apparently two versions of the latest connectors. I am told that Celerity were apparently having some issues with the connectors that were originally shipped with the 4K60 rated cables at higher bandwidths, and have created a revised DFO connector. 

However oddly, it appears their current policy is to continue to ship the cable with the older version of the connector (presumably to use up old stock?), and only issue the revised connector to any users that run into problems with the cable.

I have a 50ft version of the cable that I ordered and installed just before Christmas, and though I specifically requested it be shipped with the latest version of the DFO connectors, it transpires it wasn't. When I complained to my supplier, following regular drop outs etc, Celerity immediately shipped out the newer connectors. So far I'm having significantly less issues, even at 2160p/60 4:2:2. I still have some drop outs, requiring a few reboots of the Radiance Pro, but I think that might be my input cables not being long enough, which I'll be addressing this week.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Wookii said:


> Do you have the latest DFO connectors on the Celerity? There are apparently two versions of the latest connectors. I am told that Celerity were apparently having some issues with the connectors that were originally shipped with the 4K60 rated cables at higher bandwidths, and have created a revised DFO connector.
> 
> 
> 
> However oddly, it appears their current policy is to continue to ship the cable with the older version of the connector (presumably to use up old stock?), and only issue the revised connector to any users that run into problems with the cable.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 50ft version of the cable that I ordered and installed just before Christmas, and though I specifically requested it be shipped with the latest version of the DFO connectors, it transpires it wasn't. When I complained to my supplier, following regular drop outs etc, Celerity immediately shipped out the newer connectors. So far I'm having significantly less issues, even at 2160p/60 4:2:2. I still have some drop outs, requiring a few reboots of the Radiance Pro, but I think that might be my input cables not being long enough, which I'll be addressing this week.




Nope, do not have the latest DFO connectors. The reports I've read on them (both public and via PM) all essentially point to instability being mitigated, but not wholly eliminated. I'm on the search for a 100% stable solution (without spending the $ required for the Tributaries fiber cable). It's frustrating because HDMI cables are not delivering on their original promises. If the folks behind the DVI connections of yesteryear were to release a new cable standard tomorrow, I'd be all over it in 4/8 of a heartbeat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Wookii

BrolicBeast said:


> Nope, do not have the latest DFO connectors. The reports I've read on them (both public and via PM) all essentially point to instability being mitigated, but not wholly eliminated. I'm on the search for a 100% stable solution (without spending the $ required for the Tributaries fiber cable). It's frustrating because HDMI cables are not delivering on their original promises. If the folks behind the DVI connections of yesteryear were to release a new cable standard tomorrow, I'd be all over it in 4/8 of a heartbeat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Agreed on all counts, HDMI continues to be an exercise in frustration!


----------



## xtrips

About the snow thing, at both sites we use a regular HDMI 1.4 cable coupled with a Ethereal HDM-GA1 Gigabit Accelerator.
Anybody has any experience with these devices?


----------



## BrolicBeast

xtrips said:


> About the snow thing, at both sites we use a regular HDMI 1.4 cable coupled with a Ethereal HDM-GA1 Gigabit Accelerator.
> Anybody has any experience with these devices?




From research, I think that accelerator works best with the the MHX cables. Won't know for sure until later this week. Both are arriving on Thurs. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dlinsley

I experienced the long snow once on Saturday, before I upgraded to the latest Radiance firmware. I do get multi-coloured snow (there's some red and green in there) when my Oppo 203 or Roku switches modes. It is present for a few seconds until my projector resyncs, then it goes black and then the picture comes up ~15s later. 4k60 from the Roku also works fine:

Oppo/Roku -> Monoprice Certified Premium 10' -> 18G in Radiance 18G out -> Monoprice Certified Premium 10' -> Anthem MRX-1120 -> Monoprice Cabernet 40' -> JVC RS600.

(Same experience if I bypass the Anthem with the 40' direct from the Radiance to the JVC)


----------



## StephenBishop

BrolicBeast said:


> Mine is 80ft. One thing I have left to try is a 6' HDMI extender to normalize the output signal to something the Celerity likes. I'll be comparing that solution side-by-side with the Ethereal once the Ethereal arrives. If your Lumagen Pro purchase is hinging on the cable, I can order the HDMI extension cable sooner than later and test it out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


 Yes, my Lumagen Pro purchase is hinging on reports that the Lumagen Pro plays nicely with a 15m Celerity DFO cable. Specifically, I need it to work with my 15m Celerity DFO cable as the option of changing the cable is not feasible without major hassle! For the record my Celerity DFO cable explicitly say 18Gbps on the box and the connectors have the 18Gbps "ring" mark on them.


----------



## BrolicBeast

StephenBishop said:


> Yes, my Lumagen Pro purchase is hinging on reports that the Lumagen Pro plays nicely with a 15m Celerity DFO cable. Specifically, I need it to work with my 15m Celerity DFO cable as the option of changing the cable is not feasible without major hassle! For the record my Celerity DFO cable explicitly say 18Gbps on the box and the connectors have the 18Gbps "ring" mark on them.




My Monoprice 6' male-female extension cable is coming by this weekend. I'll let you know if the extension works to normalize the Lumagen Pro's output signal to something the Celerity can handle. I'll also report back on the Ethereal, which arrives tomorrow  

Yeah, my Celerity also says 18GB on the box. It works great, but just needs the right signal. Their customer service is pretty awesome as well. When I first got my Celerity, i got zero picture. Emailing customer service quickly resulted in some suggested settings in my equipment that made it work (Oppo in particular). It won't pass an Xbox One S signal at [email protected], but I'm pretty sure that has to do with the Xbox and it's likely low-voltage output.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SJHT

I'm replacing my cables with the 50' Ethereal solution that Jim recommends and has tested. I hate HDMI. 

SJ


----------



## BrolicBeast

SJHT said:


> I'm replacing my cables with the 50' Ethereal solution that Jim recommends and has tested. I hate HDMI.
> 
> 
> 
> SJ




Same length I have arriving tomorrow. Are you using the HDA-Gamma Gamma Gumdrop accelerator piece in conjunction with MHX? (I can never remember the model number)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SJHT

Using the Ethereal HDM-GA1 accelerator in combination with Ethereal cables. SJ


----------



## TeeBo

*PIP, POP and PAP?*

I have a question regarding the forthcoming PIP functionality. For some years I have wanted to display a full 16x9 source and a full 4x3 source, side by side, on a 21x9 (2.37:1) screen. I have only found this capability in commercial switchers that cost as much as a Radiance Pro and cannot bring myself to spend that much on a one trick pony. 

I have coveted a Radiance Pro for some time and this feature would make it even easier to buy one. I have a Sony VW500 and a 127" 2:37 screen. 

Do we know if this side by side mode will be supported, in addition to PIP and POP?

Thanks, Tim


----------



## SJHT

You can fill as much as your screen allows as the PIP/POP is very flexible. I used this feature on my previous XE3D and looking forward to it in the Pro. Used to watch football and play Xbox games on the same screen. Lol


----------



## turls

TeeBo said:


> I have a question regarding the forthcoming PIP functionality. For some years I have wanted to display a full 16x9 source and a full 4x3 source, side by side, on a 21x9 (2.37:1) screen. I have only found this capability in commercial switchers that cost as much as a Radiance Pro and cannot bring myself to spend that much on a one trick pony.
> 
> I have coveted a Radiance Pro for some time and this feature would make it even easier to buy one. I have a Sony VW500 and a 127" 2:37 screen.
> 
> Do we know if this side by side mode will be supported, in addition to PIP and POP?


Please contact @jrp about this functionality, as it is very low on the priority list. The only date given for implementation has long since passed with no updated estimate given.

Honestly at this point we don't know when or if it will be implemented, or what actual features it will contain.


----------



## Jack D

FYI. I installed a 15 m Ruipro HDMI Fiber Cable at the same time I inserted the Pro into my system. It works without any problems with 4K material from Blu-Ray or Streaming (Fire TV).


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N6HM1RL/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## SJHT

I got the combo that Jim recommends. Ethereal HDM-GA1, MHX 15 meter and MHX 2 meter cable. Immediately upon installing my projector (JVC RS600)for the first time seem to work well. Never have seen the 12 bit status turn on. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

turls said:


> Please contact @*jrp* about this functionality, as it is very low on the priority list. The only date given for implementation has long since passed with no updated estimate given.
> 
> Honestly at this point we don't know when or if it will be implemented, or what actual features it will contain.


Matt

Join the lumagen support forum then message me your user name here and i will get you access to the beta users support area. Jim has recently posted the priority list for what is getting done. I am sure that PiP and PoP are on there.

Gordon


----------



## turls

Gordon Fraser said:


> Join the lumagen support forum then message me your user name here and i will get you access to the beta users support area. Jim has recently posted the priority list for what is getting done. I am sure that PiP and PoP are on there.


I've had access to that forum during a large part of the beta period. Actually it has been pretty dead lately and I get most updates here. I was going to double check to see what if anything has been posted but the forum is down right now with a SQL error. 

Bottom line for me is I haven't had PiP for going on two years and when I ask about it I am told there is not much interest. So yes I'm going to advocate a potential buyer contact jrp when he says it is a critical feature for him.

I mean I'm a patient person most of the time but two years for a legacy feature? But I'm in the minority and its just my opinion.


----------



## Mike_WI

*http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/*



Gordon Fraser said:


> Matt
> 
> Join the lumagen support forum then message me your user name here and i will get you access to the beta users support area. Jim has recently posted the priority list for what is getting done. I am sure that PiP and PoP are on there.
> 
> Gordon


This link (from Lumagen site list) doesn't seem to work (at least for me):
http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/

Is there another URL?

Mike


----------



## Wookii

Mike_WI said:


> This link (from Lumagen site list) doesn't seem to work (at least for me):
> http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/
> 
> Is there another URL?
> 
> Mike


I get an SQL error from that link


----------



## turls

Forum is back up. There are about a half dozen posts in the last 3 months, but there is a good post from jrp for those that aren't setup for the beta forum.

And those that join will see what I mean about PiP...I was not posting information about PiP priority going off an actual list, just what I've been told.


----------



## Mike_WI

*"Radiance XD User Support"*



Gordon Fraser said:


> Matt
> 
> Join the lumagen support forum then message me your user name here and i will get you access to the beta users support area. Jim has recently posted the priority list for what is getting done. I am sure that PiP and PoP are on there.
> 
> Gordon





turls said:


> Forum is back up. There are about a half dozen posts in the last 3 months, but there is a good post from jrp for those that aren't setup for the beta forum.
> 
> And those that join will see what I mean about PiP...I was not posting information about PiP priority going off an actual list, just what I've been told.


The newest Lumagen Radiance Pro postings are under "Radiance XD User Support" heading.
Could a new Forum header be made to help organize and guide people?

Mike


EDIT -
Trying to reset my password and re-login seems buggy/slow.


----------



## turls

Mike_WI said:


> The newest Lumagen Radiance Pro postings are under "Radiance XD User Support" heading.
> Could a new Forum header be made to help organize and guide people?


Not sure what you mean. I'm talking about the beta forum that Gordon referred to. Pretty sure I found the exact priority list Gordon referred to. Which is a recent post.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Yep, sorry... just after i made the suggestion i went to try to find link to post and discoverd the database error. Admin fixed it quite quick but i've been out all day..

Thanks

Gordon


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Beta Forum*



turls said:


> Not sure what you mean. I'm talking about the beta forum that Gordon referred to. Pretty sure I found the exact priority list Gordon referred to. Which is a recent post.


I don't see Beta Forum.
I just see latest post here (2/2017): "Home » Lumagen Video Processors & Scalers » Radiance XD User Support"
http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/foru...id=9&rid=0&S=de8c137944a1e47f244777023af2b742
Will PM @Gordon Fraser. 
I am also Mike_WI on Lumagen Forum.

Also that forum software keeps giving me the option to "login" but shows me logged in at the bottom:
"There are 1 member, 0 invisible members and 476 guests visiting this board. [Administrator] [Moderator]
*Mike_WI*"

Mike


----------



## SJHT

I can never get registered as it keeps telling me I'm waiting for validation. Been waiting months at this point. Sent message to administrator and have never heard. Finally gave up. My ID still logs me on but still get the same message. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 030317 FW Update*

Beta 030317 FW Update


*Beta 030317*
- Fix for audio output to an Oppo HDMI input which was getting no audio. 
Small fix to rs232 power-on command echo. 
Adds "menu 0944" command to enable basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel pcm and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
Added Dolby Digital+ format to "menu 0943" command which enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs.
(The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output 1). 
Small improvement to fan operation at power on. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> I don't see Beta Forum.
> I just see latest post here (2/2017): "Home » Lumagen Video Processors & Scalers » Radiance XD User Support"
> http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/foru...id=9&rid=0&S=de8c137944a1e47f244777023af2b742
> Will PM @Gordon Fraser.
> I am also Mike_WI on Lumagen Forum.
> 
> Also that forum software keeps giving me the option to "login" but shows me logged in at the bottom:
> "There are 1 member, 0 invisible members and 476 guests visiting this board. [Administrator] [Moderator]
> *Mike_WI*"
> 
> Mike


Since every firmware released on Lumagen's site says "beta', what's the difference with what may be posted on the convergent "beta" site?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

thrang said:


> Since every firmware released on Lumagen's site says "beta', what's the difference with what may be posted on the convergent "beta" site?


There are no firmwares posted on the Lumagen forum. Firmware is only ever posted on Lumagens own support section of their website.


----------



## dlinsley

thrang said:


> Since every firmware released on Lumagen's site says "beta', what's the difference with what may be posted on the convergent "beta" site?





Gordon Fraser said:


> There are no firmwares posted on the Lumagen forum. Firmware is only ever posted on Lumagens own support section of their website.


I think the answer to Thrang's question is that the Convergent forum is where it is ok to post questions/info about items that are/were under NDA. That probably isn't an issue anymore.


----------



## jrp

Several questions and comments on PiP/PoP for the Radiance Pro:

First, sorry it is not available yet. We have prioritized fixing bugs in the HDMI 2.0 chips, 18 GHz support, Rec 2020, and HDR support, over the PiP/PoP. While this is the correct priority for almost everyone, I acknowledge it is not what a few would have preferred.

PiP/PoP was called a legacy feature in one post. Let me point out that while it was available in the RadianceXD/XE, it was implemented in the GF9450 chip we used for those products. So it is almost a completely new design in the Radiance Pro.

We do still plan to implement the PiP/PoP features in the Radiance Pro 444X models. It will likely be sometime in the second half of 2017. Note: As has always been true the Radiance Pro 424X models will not get a PiP/PoP feature.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Just curious and probably a stupid question, but when we get all of the shaping LUT, etc. I should be able to have my projector stay on the same configuration when watching REC 709 material or REC 2020 material as the Pro will switch between CMS profiles? Maybe that's the point of all of this! Would make things so much easier as now when I'm using my Strato, the title/movie view displays in REC709 4K60 and then I select an HDR movie (4K24 HDR REC2020), I have to select a different config on my projector or use the default provided, but when I go back to the movie title view, it continues to display in the HDR mode until I select the projector memory to get things correct again.... SJ


Yes, you can choose a single mode for the projector for SDR/HDR and Rec709/Rec2020. The Radiance Pro chooses a different CMS memory for SDR/709 (default = CMS0) and HDR/2020 (default = CMS1). Whether this is optimal will depend on your specific setup. 

I believe that for some TVs and projectors that sending the video in SDR and Rec 709 mode may provide the best image quality. You would select a high light output (that maintains an excellent black level), and a large color Gamut mode (but maybe not largest color Gamut as some projectors seem to be very non-linear in their largest color Gamut mode). You also manually select the CMS1 output Colorspace as SDR709 in the Radiance Pro. You would then do a pre-calibration measurement run and create a 3D LUT for SDR Gamma and Rec 709 sources (for CMS0), and one (once we release the HDR Intensity mapping) for HDR Gamma and Rec 2020 sources (for CMS1).

Another choice is to not put the projector in HDR mode, but do enable Rec 2020 as appropriate. In this case CMS1 Colorspace would be selected as SDR2020. The HDR Intensity mapping adapts the HDR input Gamma for display on a SDR TV/Projector (or SDR mode of a HDR TV/projector) to the best ability of the TV/projector.


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDR Intensity mapping*

Any timeline for this: HDR Intensity mapping ?

Mike



jrp said:


> Yes, you can choose a single mode for the projector for SDR/HDR and Rec709/Rec2020. The Radiance Pro chooses a different CMS memory for SDR/709 (default = CMS0) and HDR/2020 (default = CMS1). Whether this is optimal will depend on your specific setup.
> 
> I believe that for some TVs and projectors that sending the video in SDR and Rec 709 mode may provide the best image quality. You would select a high light output (that maintains an excellent black level), and a large color Gamut mode (but maybe not largest color Gamut as some projectors seem to be very non-linear in their largest color Gamut mode). You also manually select the CMS1 output Colorspace as SDR709 in the Radiance Pro. You would then do a pre-calibration measurement run and create a 3D LUT for SDR Gamma and Rec 709 sources (for CMS0), and one (once we release the HDR Intensity mapping) for HDR Gamma and Rec 2020 sources (for CMS1).
> 
> Another choice is to not put the projector in HDR mode, but do enable Rec 2020 as appropriate. In this case CMS1 Colorspace would be selected as SDR2020. The HDR Intensity mapping adapts the HDR input Gamma for display on a SDR TV/Projector (or SDR mode of a HDR TV/projector) to the best ability of the TV/projector.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> Any timeline for this: HDR Intensity mapping ?
> 
> Mike


We have had the HDR Intensity Mapping algorithm complete for some time, and I recently added Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) support to the table generation code. A new development I can report is that for the first time I can say Patrick is working on the FPGA and user interface code for this. We have slogged our way through the 18 GHz HDMI 2.0 chip bugs that we can deal with in our code. There only remain (as far as we know) a few minor 18 GHz bugs we found that do not seem to be affecting people, but would need to be addressed by the chip manufacturer in their microcode inside the 18 GHz chips.

If no new significant bugs pop up for us to deal with, I believe that the HDR Intensity Mapping initial release will be in April.


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> I recently added Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) support to the table generation code.


Does this mean displays without HLG support will be able to receive HDR10 (or intensity mapped SDR) converted from HLG sources (such as the new Chromecast IIRC)?


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> Does this mean displays without HLG support will be able to receive HDR10 (or intensity mapped SDR) converted from HLG sources (such as the new Chromecast IIRC)?


This will not be in the first HDR Intensity Mapping release, but the intent is to convert HLG sources to HDR10 for output from the Pro (or with the HDR Intensity Mapping to adapt HLG to SDR output from the Pro).

Later we may also add HLG source into the HDR Intensity Mapping and allow HLG intensity mapped output from the Pro.


----------



## thrang

How soon might we see auto calibration hooks for 2020hdr ? My understanding from ChromaPure is they are waiting on this support....thanks


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> How soon might we see auto calibration hooks for 2020hdr ? My understanding from ChromaPure is they are waiting on this support....thanks


You can already calibrate HDR using Lightspace. This calibration is good for a single maximum input mastering level but people are using it successfully.

You can calibrate Rec 2020 with Calman and Chromapure by selecting the Rec 2020 primary points.

If Calman and Chromapure supported the HDR Gamma curve you could use them for a single Source Mastering Level mastering level just like Lightspace with no changes in the Radiance Pro.

Once we have the HDR Intensity Mapping (now thinking it will be released in April) you will be able to use these (Calman and Chromapure) as they are now for HDR calibration if you tell the Pro to leave the TV/projector in SDR mode using the normal SDR calibration but with the Rec 2020 primary points for an HDR source.

For HDR output mode from the Pro these programs will need to add support for the HDR Gamma curve. This is no different than today, except the HDR Intensity mapping will adjust the response curve based on the Source Mastering Level reported in the HDR Info-frame and currently the calibration (e.g. Lightspace) is set for a single mastering level.

So I am not sure why they say they cannot calibrate HDR other than they may have not implemented the HDR Gamma curve.

Note that I believe HDR calibrations will be more accurate sending "SDR" to the TV/projector from the Pro for HDR source (assuming you can get enough brightness out of the SDR mode in the TV/projector) once the HDR Intensity Mapping is released. If you do this you should make sure to use the 4:2:2 12-bit output format from the Pro to have enough bit depth.


----------



## alex_t

Hello all.

Thank you Jim for the update.

I would like to add that Lightspace allows to use a multiplier to better handle ST2084 with video projectors. I have tested this Lightspace feature with a Sony 550ES (about 90 nits in my room), Sony 1100ES (about 60 nits) and currently with my own video projector a JVC X35 (about 50 nits) (hdfury integral is mandatory when hdcp is not 2.2). It works very well. But I look forward to using the HDR intensity mapping.

The best results I have gotten is by using the CMS slot for SDR/REC709. This allows to put the video projector in SDR mode with its largest gamut and to bypass all of its HDR/REC2020 processing.


----------



## loggeo

alex_t said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Thank you Jim for the update.
> 
> I would like to add that Lightspace allows to use a multiplier to better handle ST2084 with video projectors. I have tested this Lightspace feature with a Sony 550ES (about 90 nits in my room), Sony 1100ES (about 60 nits) and currently with my own video projector a JVC X35 (about 50 nits) (hdfury integral is mandatory when hdcp is not 2.2). It works very well. But I look forward to using the HDR intensity mapping.
> 
> The best results I have gotten is by using the CMS slot for SDR/REC709. This allows to put the video projector in SDR mode with its largest gamut and to bypass all of its HDR/REC2020 processing.


Hello,

what multipliers did you use? Did you go with hard clipping/ soft clipping? 
It would be a good idea if people would give us their impressions and suggestions of their lumagen/lightspace calibration combination. 
Gordon your opinion would mean a lot since you gave us your guide and have the most experience.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> You can already calibrate HDR using Lightspace. This calibration is good for a single maximum input mastering level but people are using it successfully.
> 
> You can calibrate Rec 2020 with Calman and Chromapure by selecting the Rec 2020 primary points.
> 
> If Calman and Chromapure supported the HDR Gamma curve you could use them for a single Source Mastering Level mastering level just like Lightspace with no changes in the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Once we have the HDR Intensity Mapping (now thinking it will be released in April) you will be able to use these (Calman and Chromapure) as they are now for HDR calibration if you tell the Pro to leave the TV/projector in SDR mode using the normal SDR calibration but with the Rec 2020 primary points for an HDR source.
> 
> For HDR output mode from the Pro these programs will need to add support for the HDR Gamma curve. This is no different than today, except the HDR Intensity mapping will adjust the response curve based on the Source Mastering Level reported in the HDR Info-frame and currently the calibration (e.g. Lightspace) is set for a single mastering level.
> 
> So I am not sure why they say they cannot calibrate HDR other than they may have not implemented the HDR Gamma curve.
> 
> Note that I believe HDR calibrations will be more accurate sending "SDR" to the TV/projector from the Pro for HDR source (assuming you can get enough brightness out of the SDR mode in the TV/projector) once the HDR Intensity Mapping is released. If you do this you should make sure to use the 4:2:2 12-bit output format from the Pro to have enough bit depth.


_Auto_ calibration, not manual...


----------



## alex_t

loggeo said:


> Hello,
> 
> what multipliers did you use? Did you go with hard clipping/ soft clipping?
> It would be a good idea if people would give us their impressions and suggestions of their lumagen/lightspace calibration combination.
> Gordon your opinion would mean a lot since you gave us your guide and have the most experience.


Hello,

Gordon's guide is very useful and I have followed it before to explore by myself the different possibilities offered by Radiance PRO/LightSpace.

According to my experience and without the HDR intensity mapped feature implemented in the PRO, I can say that the multiplier fr ST2084 depends on the video projector environment and the video projector performance itself. It is not a constant. Also, I would say that the limit to get a decent HDR renderer with mulitplier is is when ST2084 is not below 300 nits and the multiplier is not higher than 10.

In my room, very dark (screen length = 2.6m), the multiplier for ST2084 was as follows :

- Sony 550ES : multiplier x4
- Sony 1100ES : multiplier x6
- JVC X35 : multiplier x8


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> You can already calibrate HDR using Lightspace. This calibration is good for a single maximum input mastering level but people are using it successfully.
> 
> You can calibrate Rec 2020 with Calman and Chromapure by selecting the Rec 2020 primary points.
> 
> If Calman and Chromapure supported the HDR Gamma curve you could use them for a single Source Mastering Level mastering level just like Lightspace with no changes in the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Once we have the HDR Intensity Mapping (now thinking it will be released in April) you will be able to use these (Calman and Chromapure) as they are now for HDR calibration if you tell the Pro to leave the TV/projector in SDR mode using the normal SDR calibration but with the Rec 2020 primary points for an HDR source.
> 
> For HDR output mode from the Pro these programs will need to add support for the HDR Gamma curve. This is no different than today, except the HDR Intensity mapping will adjust the response curve based on the Source Mastering Level reported in the HDR Info-frame and currently the calibration (e.g. Lightspace) is set for a single mastering level.
> 
> So I am not sure why they say they cannot calibrate HDR other than they may have not implemented the HDR Gamma curve.
> 
> Note that I believe HDR calibrations will be more accurate sending "SDR" to the TV/projector from the Pro for HDR source (assuming you can get enough brightness out of the SDR mode in the TV/projector) once the HDR Intensity Mapping is released. If you do this you should make sure to use the 4:2:2 12-bit output format from the Pro to have enough bit depth.


I don't understand why Calman have been so slow on the uptake for HDR gamma curve implementation either - I would have thought it would be fairly easy to implement by measuring peak luminance and allowing user parameters to be entered for points like roll off and hard clip points (in much the same way as the script software many JVC RSx00 owners have been using recently to generate custom HDR gamma curves).

I am looking forward to trying out the HDR Intensity Mapping though Jim, can you share any details on precisely how it will work, and what adjustable parameters will be available? How will the parameters be set; by eye on movies scenes, by eye on internal test patterns or by measurement?

What parts of the HDR metadata will the HDR Intensity Mapping use to tone map the content; the overall mastered Max nit level (e.g. 4000nits or 1000nits) or the actual content levels (i.e. MaxCLL, MaxFALL)?


----------



## Manni01

Wookii said:


> I don't understand why Calman have been so slow on the uptake for HDR gamma curve implementation either - I would have thought it would be fairly easy to implement by measuring peak luminance and allowing user parameters to be entered for points like roll off and hard clip points (in much the same way as the script software many JVC RSx00 owners have been using recently to generate custom HDR gamma curves).
> 
> I am looking forward to trying out the HDR Intensity Mapping though Jim, can you share any details on precisely how it will work, and what adjustable parameters will be available? How will the parameters be set; by eye on movies scenes, by eye on internal test patterns or by measurement?
> 
> What parts of the HDR metadata will the HDR Intensity Mapping use to tone map the content; the overall mastered Max nit level (e.g. 4000nits or 1000nits) or the actual content levels (i.e. MaxCLL, MaxFALL)?


Calman supports PQ/HDR with the ST2084 curve. It also has an HDR10 workflow (BT2020/ST2084). The gamut layout targets 50% sat at 50% stim, to deal with the fact that few consumer displays reach above 65% of BT2020 (100% of P3).

It's only for projectors that you need to use a multiplier. It's very easy to do so using the Y parameter in the screen offset (workflow options). Sure, it would be nice if this was supported at some point formally, or if we were given options for hard clip and soft clip, but right now Calman is fully usable for a manual HDR calibration.

I use a multiplier of 6 for my 130nits peakY (800nits virtual) in my JVC RS500 in low lamp, iris fully open. I also used a multiplier of 6 for my high lamp / iris open mode (200nits actual / 1200nits virtual). I use a roll-off to soft-clip below 4000nits with very good results. I would recommend a multiplier of 4-5 for dimmer setups.

As you say there is now a tool designed by @arve to make things much easier for JVC users, but the principles are the same using a manual calibration with Calman (or any other software) on any display.

I'm very much looking forward to reading feedback on the Radiance intensity mapping, as I'm not using a Radiance Pro (yet).


----------



## Dirk44

Manni01 said:


> Calman supports PQ/HDR with the ST2084 curve. It also has an HDR10 workflow.
> 
> It's only for projectors that you need to use a multiplier. It's very easy to do so using the Y parameter in the screen offset (workflow options). Sure, it would be nice if this was supported at some point formally, or if we were given options for hard clip and soft clip, but right now Calman is fully usable for a manual HDR calibration.
> 
> I use a multiplier of 6 for my 130nits peakY (800nits virtual) in my JVC RS500 in low lamp, iris fully open. I also used a multiplier of 6 for my high lamp / iris open mode (200nits actual / 1200nits virtual). I use a roll-off to soft-clip below 4000nits with very good results. I would recommend a multiplier of 4-5 for dimmer setups.
> 
> As you say there is now a tool designed by @*arve* to make things much easier for JVC users, but the principles are the same using a manual calibration with Calman (or any other software) on any display.
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to reading feedback on the Radiance intensity mapping, as I'm not using a Radiance Pro (yet).


Hello Manni,

i wrote about this tool here in the avs.
Do you think there is chance to use this tool in the same way for Sony 4k Projectors as well?

P.S. I have the VW 1100 and Oppo 203 still no Lumagen, because i wait for the results, to see matching colors 2020 and HDR at the VW 1100 

Best regards dirk


----------



## Manni01

Dirk44 said:


> Hello Manni,
> 
> i wrote about this tool here in the avs.
> Do you think there is chance to use this tool in the same way for Sony 4k Projectors as well?
> 
> P.S. I have the VW 1100 and Oppo 203 still no Lumagen, because i wait for the results, to see matching colors 2020 and HDR at the VW 1100
> 
> Best regards dirk


No, as far as I know Arve's tool only supports the 2015-2017 JVCs, with experimental support in the works for the 2014 models. It doesn't support (yet) the JVC Z1/RS4500 either. Pretty much off topic here


----------



## loggeo

Manni01 said:


> Calman supports PQ/HDR with the ST2084 curve. It also has an HDR10 workflow (BT2020/ST2084). The gamut layout targets 50% sat at 50% stim, to deal with the fact that few consumer displays reach above 65% of BT2020 (100% of P3).
> 
> It's only for projectors that you need to use a multiplier. It's very easy to do so using the Y parameter in the screen offset (workflow options). Sure, it would be nice if this was supported at some point formally, or if we were given options for hard clip and soft clip, but right now Calman is fully usable for a manual HDR calibration.
> 
> I use a multiplier of 6 for my 130nits peakY (800nits virtual) in my JVC RS500 in low lamp, iris fully open. I also used a multiplier of 6 for my high lamp / iris open mode (200nits actual / 1200nits virtual). I use a roll-off to soft-clip below 4000nits with very good results. I would recommend a multiplier of 4-5 for dimmer setups.
> 
> As you say there is now a tool designed by @*arve* to make things much easier for JVC users, but the principles are the same using a manual calibration with Calman (or any other software) on any display.
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to reading feedback on the Radiance intensity mapping, as I'm not using a Radiance Pro (yet).


I settled at a multiplier of 5 for my rs500 with peak white of 118,6 high lamp, iris fully open. I have a 2,93 m wide 2.35 screen and use an alens. I also use roll-off to soft clip below 4000 above 90%.
I understand that the combination of lightspace and lumagen is pretty expensive, but had it not been for members like you Manni it would be our only option.
That says a lot about your contribution to the community. Thank you!
It also says a lot about calman's complacency lately. This is of course my personal opinion.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I am continuing to find different best values with different displays. I find that with some units rolling off at 90% can cause abrupt artefacts so lately i've been clipping at 2500 nits and rolling off at 85% with x5 or x6 multipliers and that is getting good results. I have a new idea that i am going to try to test out but I've not had the time. I had hoped to do it this weekend with my demo Z1 but i ended up having a trip to hospital instead....on the mend now though!


----------



## Manni01

Gordon Fraser said:


> I am continuing to find different best values with different displays. I find that with some units rolling off at 90% can cause abrupt artefacts so lately i've been clipping at 2500 nits and rolling off at 85% with x5 or x6 multipliers and that is getting good results. I have a new idea that i am going to try to test out but I've not had the time. I had hoped to do it this weekend with my demo Z1 but i ended up having a trip to hospital instead....on the mend now though!


Hi Gordon, sorry to hear about your hospital trip, hope you'll be 100% soon. 

I have tried a few roll-offs (90% isn't good indeed) and I start the roll-off earlier (around 70%), but with a softer curve (so staying quite close to PQ for as long as possible, while still being able to resolve the highlights). This allows me to hard clip at 4000nits to keep most of the detail in the highlights in 4000nits titles, without losing much in contrast and brightness (or adding artifacts) for 1000-1100nits titles.

2500nits is a good point to hard clip though if you prefer this option as there are only a handful of titles (including 4000nits titles) with actual content above that. But if you measure brightness/contrast clipping at 4000nits with a good roll-off, there is little to be gained clipping lower, provided you have enough headroom for the highlights (at least 100nits peakY, preferably more than 120nits).

As far as I can see there is no universal multiplier. It depends on how bright the setup is. I assume you ended up with 6 (legacy reference white around 16nits) because you had at least 100nits available. People with less than that often need a lower multiplier to get a steeper/brighter curve. Whether they should be trying to do HDR is a different question


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Yeah i have found that low light output devices you end up using less of a multiplier just so the SDR range doesn't look super dim...and i came to the 2500 clip by looking at some 4000nit titles to see what looked not unpleasant. I started at 1000 and went up to 4000. I had been using 4000 but have since moved down. It really is a suck it and see scenario right now.


----------



## Manni01

Gordon Fraser said:


> Yeah i have found that low light output devices you end up using less of a multiplier just so the SDR range doesn't look super dim...and i came to the 2500 clip by looking at some 4000nit titles to see what looked not unpleasant. I started at 1000 and went up to 4000. I had been using 4000 but have since moved down. It really is a suck it and see scenario right now.


Did you check 4000nits titles that actually go up to 4000nits? Mad Max and Batman vs Superman are a few examples. Many 4000nits titles don't have content going above 1100nits, a few only have content going up to 2500nits or so (such as The Shallows or Pan), so there is no downside to clipping to 2500nits with the majority of 4000nits titles. It's only for the handful that have some content actually shooting up to 4000nits that clipping below can lead to a minor loss of detail in the highlights. Probably nothing that most people would notice anyway, but as the upside of clipping lower is minor with a good roll-off, and as I have enough brightness to do so, I decided to hard clip at 4000nits for now, at least in my set-up.

As you say, it is a suck it see scenario for now


----------



## sillysally

You guy's and gal's 's with a OLED may want to read these post's starting with this one. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ema-calibration-software-26.html#post51636065

ss


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> PiP/PoP was called a legacy feature in one post. Let me point out that while it was available in the RadianceXD/XE, it was implemented in the GF9450 chip we used for those products. So it is almost a completely new design in the Radiance Pro.
> 
> We do still plan to implement the PiP/PoP features in the Radiance Pro 444X models. It will likely be sometime in the second half of 2017. Note: As has always been true the Radiance Pro 424X models will not get a PiP/PoP feature.


Thank you for the update. I called it legacy. It might be semantics, or maybe I used the wrong term. I was not intending to imply it is easy to move it over. Simply that it was a checkbox feature for me and many others on the previous box that is not on the new box. It is not feasible for me to get the previous box back into my setup, so I just do without...indefinitely. But at least I have an updated estimate now.


----------



## rachmat-d

What is the the setting for color space /color depth with oppo 203 to lumagen radiance pro to Sony z9d LCD?


----------



## bobof

Does auto-aspect work any better on the Pro units than on the 2021? I find many titles confuse the 2021 algorithms for no obvious reason; Lucy on BD is a prime example; the aspect ratio ping-pongs a few times during the opening credits and then settles (wrongly) on 16:9.

If the Pro units do work better in this respect, any chance of having the algorithms back-ported to the 2021 etc?


----------



## netroamer

bobof said:


> Does auto-aspect work any better on the Pro units than on the 2021? I find many titles confuse the 2021 algorithms for no obvious reason; Lucy on BD is a prime example; the aspect ratio ping-pongs a few times during the opening credits and then settles (wrongly) on 16:9.
> 
> If the Pro units do work better in this respect, any chance of having the algorithms back-ported to the 2021 etc?


With the 4 primary AR's readily available on the remote with the simple push of a button or (Alt+2:35) for 2:40, why rely on the auto setting?


----------



## bobof

netroamer said:


> With the 4 primary AR's readily available on the remote with the simple push of a button or (Alt+2:35) for 2:40, why rely on the auto setting?


Because I'd like to leave the wife and kids able to navigate BD menus and enjoy 'scope presentation easily, without having to resort to pressing buttons to select aspect ratio (so 1990's!)  (and, if I'm honest, I'm also a bit lazy myself).


----------



## rachmat-d

Do I need to have 18ghz input and output card, for oppo 203 and Sony z9d?


----------



## turls

netroamer said:


> With the 4 primary AR's readily available on the remote with the simple push of a button or (Alt+2:35) for 2:40, why rely on the auto setting?


Variable aspect ratio content!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

rachmat-d said:


> Do I need to have 18ghz input and output card, for oppo 203 and Sony z9d?


if you are watching UHD HDR 24Hz discs then you do not need 18GHz input or output boards with an Oppo 203 for optimal image quality


----------



## Grifo

The point is: is auto aspect one of the functions of radiance?
It must work. Stop
And let me say... for all that money and after all these months (in beta) too many things miss or are not quite stable/fixed.


----------



## jrp

Image based auto aspect is a Radiance Pro feature and we have customers using it successfully.

======

There have been huge developments in 4k, including HDR, Rec 2020, and recently 18 GHz. The HDMI chips themselves have had a lot of chip issues and we have spent literally months sorting them out with the various foibles of other devices adding to the difficulty.

Given this changing landscape, the Pro has still been pretty stable in my opinion, but certainly the new technology keeps us busy fixing issues. We are adding features for these new technologies as fast as we can and I believe the growing pains (like three months to resolve 18 GHz chip issues) must be expected by anyone who wants state of the art video.


----------



## tspotorno

Very disappointing evening watching Assassin's Creed in 4k. Picture went dark about 10 or more times for about 15 sec. The audio never cut out. I was playing the 4k disk thru Oppo's 203 player. (I have 18ghz input / output cards installed)

I have seen this same issue with the KScape Strato when playing UHD HDR movies, but maybe only 1 or 2 times during a movie...

Since it is thru 2 different sources, I can only assume that my Monoprice Luxe CL3 Active High Speed Cable is not delivering the signal.

I see people talking about the Etheral HDM-GA1 accelerator and Etheral MHX cable. Does anyone have experience with this combination and does it work passing UHD/HDR signal properly to the Sony VW5000?

(I've found the MHX cables.)

Thanks.


----------



## rachmat-d

Gordon Fraser said:


> if you are watching UHD HDR 24Hz discs then you do not need 18GHz input or output boards with an Oppo 203 for optimal image quality




Thanks.


----------



## SJHT

tspotorno said:


> Very disappointing evening watching Assassin's Creed in 4k. Picture went dark about 10 or more times for about 15 sec. The audio never cut out. I was playing the 4k disk thru Oppo's 203 player. (I have 18ghz input / output cards installed)
> 
> I have seen this same issue with the KScape Strato when playing UHD HDR movies, but maybe only 1 or 2 times during a movie...
> 
> Since it is thru 2 different sources, I can only assume that my Monoprice Luxe CL3 Active High Speed Cable is not delivering the signal.
> 
> I see people talking about the Etheral HDM-GA1 accelerator and Etheral MHX cable. Does anyone have experience with this combination and does it work passing UHD/HDR signal properly to the Sony VW5000?
> 
> (I've found the MHX cables.)
> 
> Thanks.


I get 4 video dropouts from my Strato, Pro and JVC RS600 during a 2 hour movie with the Ethreal combo and 18 Ghz output. Mine maybe an issue as others have had luck with this combo. I'm also trying the RUIPRO 15m fiber cable which should arrive early next week. I'm sending the same source to the second HDMI input of my projector from one of the 9 Ghz outputs with my mono price cable with no dropouts. Using that as my default as I continue to try things. Their should be no difference with 4K24 as I believe it only requires 9 Ghz. You may want to follow this thread towards the end as they are doing a test with several cables and will report the findings by the end of the month. 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world/2502818-uhd-blu-ray-long-hdmi-cables-what-works.html


----------



## tspotorno

SJHT said:


> I get 4 video dropouts from my Strato, Pro and JVC RS600 during a 2 hour movie with the Ethreal combo and 18 Ghz output. Mine maybe an issue as others have had luck with this combo. I'm also trying the RUIPRO 15m fiber cable which should arrive early next week. I'm sending the same source to the second HDMI input of my projector from one of the 9 Ghz outputs with my mono price cable with no dropouts. Using that as my default as I continue to try things. Their should be no difference with 4K24 as I believe it only requires 9 Ghz. You may want to follow this thread towards the end as they are doing a test with several cables and will report the findings by the end of the month.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hdmi-q-one-connector-world/2502818-uhd-blu-ray-long-hdmi-cables-what-works.html


Thanks, reviewing that thread as well. Looks like many people having issues with the monoprice cables, several people reporting that the Celerity cables are having issues with the Lumagen as well.

Where did you order the RUIPRO 15m cable from? Looks like Amazon is sold out or did you get it there?


----------



## SJHT

tspotorno said:


> Thanks, reviewing that thread as well. Looks like many people having issues with the monoprice cables, several people reporting that the Celerity cables are having issues with the Lumagen as well.
> 
> Where did you order the RUIPRO 15m cable from? Looks like Amazon is sold out or did you get it there?


Got it on Amazon prior to them selling out. Need a good return policy with all of these cables! SJ


----------



## SJHT

tspotorno said:


> Thanks, reviewing that thread as well. Looks like many people having issues with the monoprice cables, several people reporting that the Celerity cables are having issues with the Lumagen as well.
> 
> Where did you order the RUIPRO 15m cable from? Looks like Amazon is sold out or did you get it there?


Just to follow up as I received the cable today. Sunday delivery from Amazon. Lol. The RUIPRO is worse than the Ethereal combo. Things start out great, but then at some point video drops (get black screen) and never comes back. The Ethereal at least recovers. Still no way as solid as my 9 Ghz output. Does anyone have a 15m cable running between a Pro and JVC using 18 Ghz signals? Something is not quite right with two different cables giving poor results. SJ


----------



## Mark_H

Try changing output ports on the Pro? I was getting video dropouts on two of my output ports, but the third I tried has been completely stable for many weeks since I switched...


----------



## SJHT

Yeah I have a 9 Ghz output as my primary backup running into the second HDMI input on my projector. Always has been stable and I'm back to using that. Just can't get the full 18 Ghz for 4K60. I'm going to try and connect the PRO directly to my projector with a 2m cable to see if 18Ghz really works at all between these two devices. Just not an easy test as the equipment is not in that room. . SJ


----------



## jamesmil

Is there any debug mode that would report more information over RS232 that we could capture to help diagnose what is happening when the picture blanks out?


----------



## kaotikr1

SJHT said:


> Yeah I have a 9 Ghz output as my primary backup running into the second HDMI input on my projector. Always has been stable and I'm back to using that. Just can't get the full 18 Ghz for 4K60. I'm going to try and connect the PRO directly to my projector with a 2m cable to see if 18Ghz really works at all between these two devices. Just not an easy test as the equipment is not in that room. . SJ




I had to run my celerity cable from the output of my anthem to the input of the Lumagen Pro then used a 6' cable from the pro to my rs520. Got 4k60hdr gaming that way. 

If I left the Pro in my rack I could not get a reliable signal.


----------



## Jack D

SJHT said:


> Just to follow up as I received the cable today. Sunday delivery from Amazon. Lol. The RUIPRO is worse than the Ethereal combo. Things start out great, but then at some point video drops (get black screen) and never comes back. The Ethereal at least recovers. Still no way as solid as my 9 Ghz output. Does anyone have a 15m cable running between a Pro and JVC using 18 Ghz signals? Something is not quite right with two different cables giving poor results. SJ


Yes I have a 15m cable (Ruipro) running between the Pro and my JVC 950 on 18GHz out. No problem with video.


----------



## SJHT

Are you running any output that requires 18 ghz?


----------



## SJHT

How are folks calibrating 4K HDR content with the Pro? I have a JVC RS600 and because black is raised/clipped, the normal contrast patterns that I use for SDR, don't even show black levels. Used the full ramp to try and get things close. Seems like they need some better overall contrast and brightness patterns or maybe it's just the JVC.... SJ


----------



## Jack D

SJHT said:


> Are you running any output that requires 18 ghz?


Good question. How do you know for sure? I've run 4K BR. Also 4k Amazon streaming. I was advised that for streaming 4K you should use 18GHz inputs because of the way the 4K is implemented on those streams.

Bottom line is that anything I've sent through that pipe has worked so far.


----------



## SJHT

Jack D said:


> Good question. How do you know for sure? I've run 4K BR. Also 4k Amazon streaming. I was advised that for streaming 4K you should use 18GHz inputs because of the way the 4K is implemented on those streams.
> 
> Bottom line is that anything I've sent through that pipe has worked so far.


Best way is to look at the JVC info screen. When it displays 4k60, is deep color greyed out? This means 12 bit which will require 18 Ghz. If it displays 8 bit, then 9 Ghz. I have a RS600 which I believe is the same model you have?

SJ


----------



## dlinsley

Deep Color is greyed out on my RS600 when watching Netflix 4k60, and the third debug menu of the Radiance shows bp:12. No drops using a 40' Monoprice Cabernet, though I go Radiance -> 10' Monoprice Certified Premium -> Anthem MRX-1120 receiver -> Cabernet -> JVC.


----------



## thrang

HDR intensity mapping
2020/HDR auto-calibration with ChromaPure
PiP

Let's go Jim!


----------



## uderman

Can someone explain to me hdr intensity mapping?

Also having a Radiance Pro i chain, what functions(in terms of HDR processing) on my TV/projector are handled by Radiance Pro?


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> Can someone explain to me hdr intensity mapping?
> 
> Also having a Radiance Pro i chain, what functions (in terms of HDR processing) on my TV/projector are handled by Radiance Pro?


The intent of HDR Intensity Mapping is to adapt the source so it looks as accurate as possible given the TV/projector capabilities (brightness and Gamut). HDR Intensity Mapping in combination with 3D LUT calibration allows the Radiance Pro to act as the "HDR Front End" to any TV or projector whether it is HDR or SDR.

If you play HDR content on a lower brightness HDR TV, or SDR TV, it can look dark as many have commented. This is due to the source being produced for a very bright TV, and can also come from the image not having the proper Electrical-to-Optical-Transfer-Function (EOTF). The HDR Intensity Mapping adapts the HDR source for the brightness you have available in the TV, or projector.

An HDR TV/projector in HDR mode (the Pro can be set to output HDR source as HDR or as SDR) complicates the calibration since it has its own HDR processing. When the Pro HDR Intensity Mapping is active the Pro sends a fixed HDR Info Frame to the TV so the HDR Intensity Mapping can be effective. The 3D LUT calibration is then competed for the color portion of Tone Mapping allowing the Radiance Pro to improve the TV/projector’s HDR image.


----------



## loggeo

jrp said:


> An HDR TV/projector in HDR mode (the Pro can be set to output HDR source as HDR or as SDR) complicates the calibration since it has its own HDR processing. When the Pro HDR Intensity Mapping is active the Pro sends a fixed HDR Info Frame to the TV so the HDR Intensity Mapping can be effective. The 3D LUT calibration is then competed for the color portion of Tone Mapping allowing the Radiance Pro to improve the TV/projector’s HDR image.


Am I right to assume that the fixed hdr info frame will not put a capable display in to hdr mode triggering its internal mapping?


----------



## jrp

loggeo said:


> Am I right to assume that the fixed hdr info frame will not put a capable display in to hdr mode triggering its internal mapping?


For HDR Source, you can choose to have the Radiance Pro send HDR Info Frame and put the TV/projector into HDR mode, or to have the Pro not send the HDR Info frame and the TV/projector would remain in SDR mode.

If the Pro outputs the HDR Info frame telling the TV/projector to go into HDR mode, the internal HDR mapping of the TV/projector would be enabled. That is why I mentioned in my last post that sending the TV/projector HDR Info Frame telling it to be in HDR can complicate calibration.

So which option is better? The definitive answer is it depends.

In our rather small sample size of HDR TVs, it looks like some will not output as bright an image in SDR mode as in HDR mode no matter what other settings you change. For these TVs, you may want to put the TV in HDR mode to get the brightest image possible for HDR. With the Pro outputting a constant HDR Info Frame and internally adapting the source to that set of HDR parameters, the TV - while still doing HDR processing - is at least doing it for what it thinks is a constant source level. This then allows you to calibrate since the TV is not changing its response out from under as the source changes HDR parameters.

It *may* be true that some TVs/projectors do not accept Rec2020 without the HDR Info Frame flag. For these you again may want to have the Pro put the TV/projector into HDR mode to get the widest possible Gamut.

For SDR output the the HDR Intensity mapping then adapts the HDR source "HDR Gamma" for output using a "SDR Gamma" to preserve the correct EOTF on the SDR TV/projector.

For TVs/projectors that can have the same brightness and Gamut in HDR and SDR mode, it is not yet clear which of these two options is best. It appears that some TVs are not really paying attention to the HDR Info Frame report of the Source Maximum Mastering Level - at least not correctly. Having the Pro output a fixed HDR Info Frame with a constant value for the Source Maximum Mastering Level may overcome this issue and make having the Pro put the TV/projector into HDR mode the best option. On the flip side this may reduce the effectiveness of the HDR Intensity Mapping given the response curve of the TV/projector in HDR mode - in which case having the Pro output in SDR/2020 or SDR/709 mode may be the better option. Since the best option may depend on your particular TV, testing both options may be a prerequisite to calibration.

For an SDR TV/projector (or HDR TV/projector if you choose the SDR output option from the Pro) you would set the Pro to output SDR2020 (or SDR709), set the TV/projector into a bright mode (while maintaining good black levels), and select a wide Gamut mode in the TV/projector. Then the 3D LUT calibration along with the HDR Intensity Mapping would allow the Radiance Pro to act as an HDR front end.


----------



## mikela

Jack D said:


> Good question. How do you know for sure? I've run 4K BR. Also 4k Amazon streaming. I was advised that for streaming 4K you should use 18GHz inputs because of the way the 4K is implemented on those streams.
> 
> Bottom line is that anything I've sent through that pipe has worked so far.


Were you able to confirm?


----------



## loggeo

jrp said:


> For an SDR TV/projector (or HDR TV/projector if you choose the SDR output option from the Pro) you would set the Pro to output SDR2020 (or SDR709), set the TV/projector into a bright mode (while maintaining good black levels), and select a wide Gamut mode in the TV/projector. Then the 3D LUT calibration along with the HDR Intensity Mapping would allow the Radiance Pro to act as an HDR front end.


I suppose this is the way to go when using a projector. Especially when using a jvc (no dynamic iris). This is what most users do already anyway, except the Intensity Mapping tool.
Calibrating an oled should be a more challenging task though and will probably need the single info frame. I wonder how will it work when the display's mapping intervenes.


----------



## sillysally

Jim, that should be fairly easy then. 
What would you set the Pro to output when it is being used as a patch generator for making a HDR profile using LightSpace.?
If I crank up the Light output in my OLED display to its max of about 435 nits, I will end up with clipping colors when profiling.
Or when profiling for HDR make any difference just using the wide gamut setting in the display and not maxing out the light output?
iow, just use the same profile I make for a REC.709 cLUT with max nits of about 156, but use the HDR 2020 setting in LightSpace to make the cLUT.?

Thanks.

ss


----------



## Mark_H

Jim, could you take another look at the fan please. Since the latest round of updates some weeks back the fan is more annoying. When mine is at 2 it quite often goes through a cycle of revving up/slowing down/revving up/slowing down. Very distracting when trying to watch TV. Last time this happened I checked and the temp was 72C at this point; way off my 94C target... so not sure why the fan should be doing this and not just sat stable (and quiet!)...


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Jim, could you take another look at the fan please. Since the latest round of updates some weeks back the fan is more annoying. When mine is at 2 it quite often goes through a cycle of revving up/slowing down/revving up/slowing down. Very distracting when trying to watch TV. Last time this happened I checked and the temp was 72C at this point; way off my 94C target... so not sure why the fan should be doing this and not just sat stable (and quiet!)...


With the latest release set the minimum fan speed to at least 4. This should help the speed cycling up and down. 

If the fan speed is currently reading 2 (or even 3 or 4), the temperature is below target, and it is noisy, it might mean the fan bearing is failing.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> With the latest release set the minimum fan speed to at least 4. This should help the speed cycling up and down.
> 
> If the fan speed is currently reading 2 (or even 3 or 4), the temperature is below target, and it is noisy, it might mean the fan bearing is failing.


2 is the only fan level I can tolerate, which is why I set my target to 94C. For most of my viewing the temp stays below this and the fan doesn't need to go any higher than 2... Extended 4K material will sometimes push the temps high enough that the fan is raised.

Sometimes even starting the Pro you hear this revving/slowing/revving/slowing thing going on.

How easy is the fan to user replace...? And do you have any higher spec silent fans available?


----------



## jrp

We are a few days away from the first HDR Intensity Mapping release. HDR Intensity Mapping is working in the lab and we have found some interesting results.

We saw a case where scenes from two movies that should have about the same true-to-life brightness were not encoded as expected given the reported "Maximum Mastering Level." The examples we have are found are scenes from a 1000 nit movie compared to similar scenes from a 4000 nit movie. For a scene with the same expected “real world” brightness the “Linear Gamma” values of the pixel data should be about 4 times larger for the 1000 nit source compared to the 4000 nit source and we found little difference between them. Other movies we evaluated appear to report a Mastering Level consistent with the data on the disc. However, the variance we saw means there may need to be some manual tuning of the HDR Intensity mapping parameters for different movies.

The second thing we saw for HDR sources is there are almost no pixels above 20% of Max Mastering Level (measured in Linear Gamma). Sunbursts and other objects one would expect to have high intensity generally do not rise above about 25% brightness (in Linear Gamma), with a few exceptions. The highest intensity I have observed so far is a muzzle flash in “Mad Max Fury Road” at 38:13 that reaches (approximately) 1760 nits.

To me HDR’s ability to better represent colors in the middle intensity range is as important as the ability to represent really bright highlights. We are seeing movies take advantage of this, and this might explain a little as to why levels are not as high as expected. At first I asked myself “Why is a Sunburst represented at 200 nits for a 1000 nit source?” and then concluded that this allows the Sunburst to be yellow and not desaturated to white. However, I think 500 nits would be more appropriate for a Sunburst with a 1000 nit movie, since it would still be able to reproduce a yellow Sun for a 1000 nit source. So I now think the 200 nit Sunburst may instead be due to the movie having been edited as SDR and then produced as HDR. This does have advantages since it allows Rec 2020 color Gamut (more likely DCI/P3 color Gamut encapsulated as Rec 2020) and significantly reduced noise near black, and would explain why a Sunburst is not as bright as expected.

The lower than expected range of intensity values affects HDR Intensity Mapping. We are seeing virtually all the scenes fall into the lower “nit-for-nit” range of HDR Intensity Mapping. For these scenes the ratio of the source maximum intensity to the display maximum intensity is the only parameter having a significant effect on the images. This is because the intensity is too low for the other parameters to have an effect on the image.

The scene in Mad Max at 38:13 with the muzzle flash is a reasonable scene to see the effects of the other HDR Intensity Mapping parameters. You can pause at about 38:11 and then slow-motion forward (the Panasonic UB-900 can do this, not sure on other players) to the frame at 38:13 that has the muzzle flash and pause. Once HDR Intensity Mapping is released you can change the Shape, Clip, and Transition parameters and you will see the changes and how the controls interact. You will also see that as the Clip value is increased the brightest colors in the muzzle flash tend to white.

I will post more on HDR Intensity Mapping soon.


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> 2 is the only fan level I can tolerate, which is why I set my target to 94C. For most of my viewing the temp stays below this and the fan doesn't need to go any higher than 2... Extended 4K material will sometimes push the temps high enough that the fan is raised.
> 
> Sometimes even starting the Pro you hear this revving/slowing/revving/slowing thing going on.
> 
> How easy is the fan to user replace...? And do you have any higher spec silent fans available?


Do you have a 424X (1U high) or a 444X (2U high) unit? The 1U uses a 60 mm fan, and the 2U unit uses a 35 mm fan attached to the Plenum. We consider the fan to not be a user replaceable part since it requires a soldering iron to replace. However, it is possible if you are handy with a soldering iron. You would need a new "foam gasket" from us to attach the fan.

I picked the fans we use because they have the lowest noise rating I found. We do have a dealer in Europe who replaced the fan with one he says has less noise. I tried to find the email, but could not. Oliver if you are reading this please post the manufacturer and part number for the fan you tried in the Pro. NOTE: The fan (and fan control) are different between the 1U and 2U units.

I also have an idea for you to try if you are so inclined. Buy a piece of Dynamat that will fit on the underside of the top cover. I believe (but have not confirmed) that it is actually the top cover mechanical vibration from the fan that is the main noise source for the fan. For me I find a speed of 4 to not be noticeable, but I realize if you have a silent room it might be. So the Dynamat may reduce the noise enough that a speed of 4 works for you. If you have a 1U unit you would have to cut the Dynamat to avoid the "air damn" (the right angle piece of steel directing airflow). If you try this I would be interested in the results of adding the Dynamat.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> We are a few days away from the first HDR Intensity Mapping release. HDR Intensity Mapping is working in the lab and we have found some interesting results.
> 
> We saw a case where scenes from two movies that should have about the same true-to-life brightness were not encoded as expected given the reported "Maximum Mastering Level." The examples we have are found are scenes from a 1000 nit movie compared to similar scenes from a 4000 nit movie. For a scene with the same expected “real world” brightness the “Linear Gamma” values of the pixel data should be about 4 times larger for the 1000 nit source compared to the 4000 nit source and we found little difference between them. Other movies we evaluated appear to report a Mastering Level consistent with the data on the disc. However, the variance we saw means there may need to be some manual tuning of the HDR Intensity mapping parameters for different movies.
> 
> The second thing we saw for HDR sources is there are almost no pixels above 20% of Max Mastering Level (measured in Linear Gamma). Sunbursts and other objects one would expect to have high intensity generally do not rise above about 25% brightness (in Linear Gamma), with a few exceptions. The highest intensity I have observed so far is a muzzle flash in “Mad Max Fury Road” at 38:13 that reaches (approximately) 1760 nits.
> 
> To me HDR’s ability to better represent colors in the middle intensity range is as important as the ability to represent really bright highlights. We are seeing movies take advantage of this, and this might explain a little as to why levels are not as high as expected. At first I asked myself “Why is a Sunburst represented at 200 nits for a 1000 nit source?” and then concluded that this allows the Sunburst to be yellow and not desaturated to white. However, I think 500 nits would be more appropriate for a Sunburst with a 1000 nit movie, since it would still be able to reproduce a yellow Sun for a 1000 nit source. So I now think the 200 nit Sunburst may instead be due to the movie having been edited as SDR and then produced as HDR. This does have advantages since it allows Rec 2020 color Gamut (more likely DCI/P3 color Gamut encapsulated as Rec 2020) and significantly reduced noise near black, and would explain why a Sunburst is not as bright as expected.
> 
> The lower than expected range of intensity values affects HDR Intensity Mapping. We are seeing virtually all the scenes fall into the lower “nit-for-nit” range of HDR Intensity Mapping. For these scenes the ratio of the source maximum intensity to the display maximum intensity is the only parameter having a significant effect on the images. This is because the intensity is too low for the other parameters to have an effect on the image.
> 
> The scene in Mad Max at 38:13 with the muzzle flash is a reasonable scene to see the effects of the other HDR Intensity Mapping parameters. You can pause at about 38:11 and then slow-motion forward (the Panasonic UB-900 can do this, not sure on other players) to the frame at 38:13 that has the muzzle flash and pause. Once HDR Intensity Mapping is released you can change the Shape, Clip, and Transition parameters and you will see the changes and how the controls interact. You will also see that as the Clip value is increased the brightest colors in the muzzle flash tend to white.
> 
> I will post more on HDR Intensity Mapping soon.


 Hi Jim,

Just FYI, you can't trust the metadata to report the actual dynamic range used for each title. Many if not most 4000nits titles are in fact never going above 1000-1100nits, due to current limitations of consumer displays. A few (The Shallows, Pan) go up to around 2500-2800nits, and even less (Mad Max, Batman vs Superman) have actually content that reaches up to 4000nits. The mastering metadata tells us about which monitor was used to grade the content (the size of the tube) but not much about the content itself (the data in the tube).

I'm using the highlight region feature of Arve's tool to evaluate this on my JVC RS500. It also has a "zebra" like feature that shows where the content clips in each frame. This is great to fine-tune the roll-off and see how high content actually goes, irrespective of what the metadata says. Hopefully it will become more reliable when we get dynamic metadata. There are very few titles with content going above 2500nits, but Mad Max is one of them. 

I haven't looked at the scene you mention in Mad Max as I'm using others. I'll try to take a look when I find the time. Look at the explosions at the end of the desert storm, or a bit before that at the shot when Max is at the back of the car, looking through the windshield. There is a flash of lightning that makes most of the picture white. If you don't resolve up to close to 4000nits, the highlights are crushed. It's a great shot to make sure you resolve detail up to quite close to 4000nits.

Hopefully you'll be able to implement something similar in the Pro once you've happy with the basics of the intensity mapping. 

When you mention nits, are you talking about the nits in the content, or the actual nits output by the display? Depending on the way HDR is implemented, one isn't necessarily equal to the other, of course. Above I'm talking about nits in the content, which should be equal to nits on the display, unless a multiplier/roll-off is used of course.

One thing I don't understand is why you would expect 4000nits titles to have highlights 4 times higher. Given that most of the content is below 100nits anyway, that's the same for all titles. Re highlights, some will go higher, some won't but as HDR is an absolute curve, whether a title is mastered to 1000 or 4000nits shouldn't make any difference. The highlights can go higher for the latter, but the picture should look very similar below 250nits. Unless you compare a 1000nits version and a 4000nits version of the same title, I'm not sure how you could compare anything as there is no reference white in HDR.

I find that provided you have enough peak brightness for your environment, if you resolve up to 4000nits and if you shape the roll-off correctly, you can watch any title without losing much in contrast/brightness for the 1000-1100nits titles. However, if you don't shape the roll-off properly (both the angle of the curve and the shape of the curve at the end), then you'll either have 1000-1100 titles too dim/lacking contrast, or you'll clip details in the highlights with 4000nits titles, and you might feel like you need different curves for different titles.

In any case, don't trust the metadata, sadly it's a poor indicator of what's actually used for the content.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Thanks Jim*



jrp said:


> We are a few days away from the first HDR Intensity Mapping release. HDR Intensity Mapping is working in the lab and we have found some interesting results.
> 
> We saw a case where scenes from two movies that should have about the same true-to-life brightness were not encoded as expected given the reported "Maximum Mastering Level." The examples we have are found are scenes from a 1000 nit movie compared to similar scenes from a 4000 nit movie. For a scene with the same expected “real world” brightness the “Linear Gamma” values of the pixel data should be about 4 times larger for the 1000 nit source compared to the 4000 nit source and we found little difference between them. Other movies we evaluated appear to report a Mastering Level consistent with the data on the disc. However, the variance we saw means there may need to be some manual tuning of the HDR Intensity mapping parameters for different movies.
> 
> The second thing we saw for HDR sources is there are almost no pixels above 20% of Max Mastering Level (measured in Linear Gamma). Sunbursts and other objects one would expect to have high intensity generally do not rise above about 25% brightness (in Linear Gamma), with a few exceptions. The highest intensity I have observed so far is a muzzle flash in “Mad Max Fury Road” at 38:13 that reaches (approximately) 1760 nits.
> 
> To me HDR’s ability to better represent colors in the middle intensity range is as important as the ability to represent really bright highlights. We are seeing movies take advantage of this, and this might explain a little as to why levels are not as high as expected. At first I asked myself “Why is a Sunburst represented at 200 nits for a 1000 nit source?” and then concluded that this allows the Sunburst to be yellow and not desaturated to white. However, I think 500 nits would be more appropriate for a Sunburst with a 1000 nit movie, since it would still be able to reproduce a yellow Sun for a 1000 nit source. So I now think the 200 nit Sunburst may instead be due to the movie having been edited as SDR and then produced as HDR. This does have advantages since it allows Rec 2020 color Gamut (more likely DCI/P3 color Gamut encapsulated as Rec 2020) and significantly reduced noise near black, and would explain why a Sunburst is not as bright as expected.
> 
> The lower than expected range of intensity values affects HDR Intensity Mapping. We are seeing virtually all the scenes fall into the lower “nit-for-nit” range of HDR Intensity Mapping. For these scenes the ratio of the source maximum intensity to the display maximum intensity is the only parameter having a significant effect on the images. This is because the intensity is too low for the other parameters to have an effect on the image.
> 
> The scene in Mad Max at 38:13 with the muzzle flash is a reasonable scene to see the effects of the other HDR Intensity Mapping parameters. You can pause at about 38:11 and then slow-motion forward (the Panasonic UB-900 can do this, not sure on other players) to the frame at 38:13 that has the muzzle flash and pause. Once HDR Intensity Mapping is released you can change the Shape, Clip, and Transition parameters and you will see the changes and how the controls interact. You will also see that as the Clip value is increased the brightest colors in the muzzle flash tend to white.
> 
> I will post more on HDR Intensity Mapping soon.


I really appreciate that @jrp is on a forum talking about his tentative timeline and rationale for FW updates.
I learn a lot and also realize how much I don't know.

Thanks Jim.

Mike


----------



## jrp

Manni01 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> 1) I'm using the highlight region feature of Arve's tool to evaluate this on my JVC RS500. It also has a "zebra" like feature that shows where the content clips in each frame.
> 
> 2) There are very few titles with content going above 2500nits, but Mad Max is one of them.
> 
> 3) If you don't resolve up to close to 4000nits, the highlights are crushed. It's a great shot to make sure you resolve detail up to quite close to 4000nits.
> 
> 4) Hopefully you'll be able to implement something similar in the Pro once you've happy with the basics of the intensity mapping.
> 
> 5) When you mention nits, are you talking about the nits in the content, or the actual nits output by the display?
> 
> 6) One thing I don't understand is why you would expect 4000 nits titles to have highlights 4 times higher.
> 
> 7) I find that provided you have enough peak brightness for your environment, if you resolve up to 4000nits and if you shape the roll-off correctly, you can watch any title without losing much in contrast/brightness for the 1000-1100nits titles. However, if you don't shape the roll-off properly (both the angle of the curve and the shape of the curve at the end), then you'll either have 1000-1100 titles too dim/lacking contrast, or you'll clip details in the highlights with 4000nits titles, and you might feel like you need different curves for different titles.
> 
> 8) In any case, don't trust the metadata, sadly it's a poor indicator of what's actually used for the content.


1) The Pro has a Debug feature where we turn pixels above a certain level into red flashing pixels. This is how I am determining the source nits level. 

2) I will look further on Mad Max. If you have time stamps for the 4000 nit content that would help.

3 & 4) The HDR Intensity making has adjustable nit-for-nit range, adjustable clip or no clip, and adjustable roll-off curve ("Shape"). So it already has response curve tuning. We may do some additional tweaks to the response curves of course.

5) Source nits. 

6) I don't expect a 4000 nit source to have 4 times the "real world" brightness. However, I do expect the data level to represent the same brightness in a 1000 nit Maximum Mastering Level source to be 4 times the data level of a 4000 nit Maximum Mastering Level source. For example 200 nits for a 1000 nits source is 20% of maximum in Linear Gamma and the same 200 nit level for a 4000 nit source is 5% of maximum in Linear Gamma.

7) The Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping changes the response curve based on the reported Maximum Mastering Level. It does seem like sources do not correlate as well as expected to this Source level changing from 1000 to 4000 (as you mention in number 8 above). So we may do some tuning for this or perhaps add a user setting for 1000, 4000, and 10000 nit sources and interpolate settings between these.

8) Agreed. The Maximum Source Mastering Level is not very accurate, but it is what we have. So looks like for now some manual tuning will be needed. Hopefully the providers start to do a beter job with this.

I will be very interested in everyone's feedback on the HDR Intensity Mapping and understanding if we need to tune it further.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> Do you have a 424X (1U high) or a 444X (2U high) unit? The 1U uses a 60 mm fan, and the 2U unit uses a 35 mm fan attached to the Plenum. We consider the fan to not be a user replaceable part since it requires a soldering iron to replace. However, it is possible if you are handy with a soldering iron. You would need a new "foam gasket" from us to attach the fan.


I have two 2U units. Not competent enough with a solder. This issue of "revving" arrived with the recent fan changes, which is why I am asking whether they can be looked at again. With the original fixed fan speeds and then the original variable fans there was no revving. So it seems something was "done" recently and I'm wondering if it can be "undone" and/or improved...



> I also have an idea for you to try if you are so inclined. Buy a piece of Dynamat that will fit on the underside of the top cover. I believe (but have not confirmed) that it is actually the top cover mechanical vibration from the fan that is the main noise source for the fan.


That, I can try, although I will try to find a similar product in the UK; perhaps PC internal damping foam, as I have some of that laying around...


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Mark_H said:


> That, I can try, although I will try to find a similar product in the UK; perhaps PC internal damping foam, as I have some of that laying around...


Probably more than you need, but I got this from Amazon UK to line my DIY subs with and to sort a few other rattles out in my HC.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0045CYOWY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Mike_WI

*Sound Dampening Acoustic EPDM Silent Foam*



Kelvin1965S said:


> Probably more than you need, but I got this from Amazon UK to line my DIY subs with and to sort a few other rattles out in my HC.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0045CYOWY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


US, 1 cm thick for computers
*Sound Dampening Acoustic EPDM Silent Foam *
https://www.amazon.com/SilverStone-...8939&sr=8-1&keywords=computer+sound+absorbing



> Constructed out of 10mm thick high quality epdm foam material
> Wave pattern surface further maximizes sound absorption
> Excellent adhesion in high temperature
> Easy to cut and fit in any computer chassis
> Package includes two foam pads


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> We are a few days away from the first HDR Intensity Mapping release. HDR Intensity Mapping is working in the lab and we have found some interesting results.
> 
> We saw a case where scenes from two movies that should have about the same true-to-life brightness were not encoded as expected given the reported "Maximum Mastering Level." The examples we have are found are scenes from a 1000 nit movie compared to similar scenes from a 4000 nit movie. For a scene with the same expected “real world” brightness the “Linear Gamma” values of the pixel data should be about 4 times larger for the 1000 nit source compared to the 4000 nit source and we found little difference between them. Other movies we evaluated appear to report a Mastering Level consistent with the data on the disc. However, the variance we saw means there may need to be some manual tuning of the HDR Intensity mapping parameters for different movies.
> 
> The second thing we saw for HDR sources is there are almost no pixels above 20% of Max Mastering Level (measured in Linear Gamma). Sunbursts and other objects one would expect to have high intensity generally do not rise above about 25% brightness (in Linear Gamma), with a few exceptions. The highest intensity I have observed so far is a muzzle flash in “Mad Max Fury Road” at 38:13 that reaches (approximately) 1760 nits.
> 
> To me HDR’s ability to better represent colors in the middle intensity range is as important as the ability to represent really bright highlights. We are seeing movies take advantage of this, and this might explain a little as to why levels are not as high as expected. At first I asked myself “Why is a Sunburst represented at 200 nits for a 1000 nit source?” and then concluded that this allows the Sunburst to be yellow and not desaturated to white. However, I think 500 nits would be more appropriate for a Sunburst with a 1000 nit movie, since it would still be able to reproduce a yellow Sun for a 1000 nit source. So I now think the 200 nit Sunburst may instead be due to the movie having been edited as SDR and then produced as HDR. This does have advantages since it allows Rec 2020 color Gamut (more likely DCI/P3 color Gamut encapsulated as Rec 2020) and significantly reduced noise near black, and would explain why a Sunburst is not as bright as expected.
> 
> The lower than expected range of intensity values affects HDR Intensity Mapping. We are seeing virtually all the scenes fall into the lower “nit-for-nit” range of HDR Intensity Mapping. For these scenes the ratio of the source maximum intensity to the display maximum intensity is the only parameter having a significant effect on the images. This is because the intensity is too low for the other parameters to have an effect on the image.
> 
> The scene in Mad Max at 38:13 with the muzzle flash is a reasonable scene to see the effects of the other HDR Intensity Mapping parameters. You can pause at about 38:11 and then slow-motion forward (the Panasonic UB-900 can do this, not sure on other players) to the frame at 38:13 that has the muzzle flash and pause. Once HDR Intensity Mapping is released you can change the Shape, Clip, and Transition parameters and you will see the changes and how the controls interact. You will also see that as the Clip value is increased the brightest colors in the muzzle flash tend to white.
> 
> I will post more on HDR Intensity Mapping soon.


Yeah Jim!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Manni01

Thanks for the detailed answer Jim. Replies in bold below.




jrp said:


> 1) The Pro has a Debug feature where we turn pixels above a certain level into red flashing pixels. This is how I am determining the source nits level.
> 
> *Great to hear about this debug feature, most useful.*
> 
> 2) I will look further on Mad Max. If you have time stamps for the 4000 nit content that would help.
> 
> *No time to get the precise time stamps at the moment but I'll try when I can.*
> 
> 3 & 4) The HDR Intensity making has adjustable nit-for-nit range, adjustable clip or no clip, and adjustable roll-off curve ("Shape"). So it already has response curve tuning. We may do some additional tweaks to the response curves of course.
> 
> *Sure, I'm aware of this, I'm really looking forward to seeing how this feature performs, that's why I'm posting  I spent a few hundred hours experimenting with manual and automatic gamma curves for HDR calibration so trying to share a few things if that can help you save some time. Not the same as the Radiance, of course, but the principles are vey similar.*
> 
> 5) Source nits.
> *Thanks.*
> 
> 6) I don't expect a 4000 nit source to have 4 times the "real world" brightness. However, I do expect the data level to represent the same brightness in a 1000 nit Maximum Mastering Level source to be 4 times the data level of a 4000 nit Maximum Mastering Level source. For example 200 nits for a 1000 nits source is 20% of maximum in Linear Gamma and the same 200 nit level for a 4000 nit source is 5% of maximum in Linear Gamma.
> 
> *What's the point of linear gamma though? ST2084 is neither linear, nor relative. It's logarithmic and absolute. If you look at the curve, 50% of the absolute levels are used to represent levels below 100nits, which covers close to 90% of the content. 4000nits is at 90%. 1000nits around 75%. So about 99% of the actual content fits below 1000nits, even for 4000nits titles which very rarely explore brightness above that. By rarely, I mean very few titles, and very little content within these titles.*
> 
> 
> 7) The Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping changes the response curve based on the reported Maximum Mastering Level. It does seem like sources do not correlate as well as expected to this Source level changing from 1000 to 4000 (as you mention in number 8 above). So we may do some tuning for this or perhaps add a user setting for 1000, 4000, and 10000 nit sources and interpolate settings between these.
> 
> *If the metadata was reliable, I agree that it would be great to switch automatically between curves optimised for different levels, but again with a curve hard clipping at 4000nits and a good roll-off, there is little need for this unless you are very limited in brightness in a given environment (for example, you have significantly less than 100nits with a PJ). Given that there is no standard with HDR10 and no reliable metadata, I find it more accurate to use a single, well designed absolute curve that displays all titles equally well. It's true that you could get a bit more brightness and on/off with a 1000nits curve for 1000nits titles, but in my experience it's not worth the hassle of having to figure out for each curve what's the best curve to use. I find the difference much smaller, for example, than between resolving up to 255 and resolving up to 235-240 for HD. In other words, the loss of brightness/contrast is much less visible, and unlike when resolving up to 255 in HD, you do actually see the highlights. All my experimentation was done with a bright PJ (up to 200nits PeakY) in a bat cave, so results might be different with a flat panel, a dimmer PJ or a less optimised environment.*
> 
> 8) Agreed. The Maximum Source Mastering Level is not very accurate, but it is what we have. So looks like for now some manual tuning will be needed. Hopefully the providers start to do a beter job with this.
> 
> *I doubt they will improve this for a while, as this is not a mistake (like some titles for which there is no metadata at all or the metadata is all zeros). It's intentional, because they know that there are no consumer displays able to display much above 1000nits. When consumer displays can display above 1000nits, then maybe we'll see better use of metadata. That or dynamic metadata with Dolby Vision or the next version of HDR10.*
> 
> I will be very interested in everyone's feedback on the HDR Intensity Mapping and understanding if we need to tune it further.
> *Very much looking forward to feedback and comments from users too. A few ideas in the meantime:*
> *Did you consider creating an "automatic curve" based on the measured peakY of the display? Calculating the best compromise re multiplier/roll-off/and possibly a selected hard clip value?*
> *Also, for projectors and displays with a black level better than 0.005nits, you might want to give the option to set black to 0.005nits and not 0nits, i.e. to resolve down to level 81 (black at 77) and not level 68 (black at 64). Although this isn't "by the book", it significantly improves the black floor for many titles mastered to 0.005nits black, and doesn't seem to cause any significant black crush for the titles mastered to 0nits black. You could detect this automatically with the metadata, as the value for black seems to be more reliable than the value for max brightness (although there are a few titles mastered poorly, with raised black levels). I couldn't see any downside using a single curve resolving down to 81, but purists might want to switch between two curves, especially if it can be done automatically using metadata to detect black level for each title. That's one more reason for having a single curve re the highlights: you don't want to switch between 4-6 curves depending on black AND white levels for each title. Otherwise, watching titles mastered with black at 0.005nits on a display with good black levels such as the JVCs leads to a significant raise of the black floor and much poorer contrast, even if the added brightness of HDR can minimise this perceptually.*
> *In any case, at least on my JVC, a single curve with black set to 0.005nits (resolving down to 81) and white hard clipping at 4000nits (with a roll-off and a curve designed to minimize the loss of brightness/contrast for 1000-1100 nits titles) works great with ALL titles.*
> *Feel free to PM me or email me if you'd like to discuss this further, I'm not sure this thread is the best place to do so.*


----------



## netroamer

*Roku Ultra and Pro Isue*

In the last couple of weeks I have encountered an issue where when viewing the Roku Ultra through the 18ghz input/output of the Pro, the image has a very quick, but visible, color shift then goes black for 10-20 secs then comes back normal. This will repeat itself continually while watching. 
On occasion, the image goes dark with low level raster flashing and the Pro will not display an image from any 18ghz input. Pulling the HDMI cables from the Pro inputs will normalize the system. Using another streaming device with a different 18ghz Pro input, like the Samsung K8500 (4k) or the OppO 105 (2k), there is no issue. This would eliminate any cabling from the outputs of the Pro. 

To troubleshoot the anomaly I have done the following:

Change HDMI input cables..No change.

Hooked the Roku to a Murideo Six A test analyzer, using the same cable, that accepts the 4k signal and has a monitor built in. The image from the Roku is rock solid.

Monitored the output of the Pro with the Roku on input 3 of the pro. The anomaly returns. 

This appears to be only a Roku/Pro issue.

Has anyone else experienced the same issue?


----------



## SJHT

netroamer said:


> In the last couple of weeks I have encountered an issue where when viewing the Roku Ultra through the 18ghz input/output of the Pro, the image has a very quick, but visible, color shift then goes black for 10-20 secs then comes back normal. This will repeat itself continually while watching.
> On occasion, the image goes dark with low level raster flashing and the Pro will not display an image from any 18ghz input. Pulling the HDMI cables from the Pro inputs will normalize the system. Using another streaming device with a different 18ghz Pro input, like the Samsung K8500 (4k) or the OppO 105 (2k), there is no issue. This would eliminate any cabling from the outputs of the Pro.
> 
> To troubleshoot the anomaly I have done the following:
> 
> Change HDMI input cables..No change.
> 
> Hooked the Roku to a Murideo Six A test analyzer, using the same cable, that accepts the 4k signal and has a monitor built in. The image from the Roku is rock solid.
> 
> Monitored the output of the Pro with the Roku on input 3 of the pro. The anomaly returns.
> 
> This appears to be only a Roku/Pro issue.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced the same issue?


What display are you normally using? I know on JVC projectors there is an issue with Roku and you have to turn CMD off. SJ


----------



## netroamer

SJHT said:


> What display are you normally using? I know on JVC projectors there is an issue with Roku and you have to turn CMD off. SJ


Sony VPL-VW5000ES, but remember the issue also showed on the Test equipment with the 5000 not involved.


----------



## tspotorno

Continuation to the cable saga...

Since installing the 18ghz card, I have experienced a variety of video dropouts. They start after the movie has been playing for a while and then every couple (10) min or so. Video goes dark, sound stops, movie then picks back up in about 5-6 seconds...

Never fails, when there is alot of action in the movie, blackout...

It is embarrassing, annoying and unacceptable.

I have, like most people with the same issue, have tried a variety of cables, Ruipro Fiber, Monoprice , Ethereal, Mediabridge etc. Nothing seems to fix the issue. I have replace all of the device to Lumagen cables with 6' minimum passive cables. I have bought 2 of each cable to test both in case i get a bad cable, spent over a 1000.00 so far... Still nothing fixes the issue.

Today, I decided to eliminate the Lumagen from the picture... Hooked the Ruipro 15m cable directly from Oppo 203 to VW5000 projector and I watched Assasin's Creed 4K HDR without interruption.

I then tried the Strato, watched Arrival in 4K HDR, again both without an issue in the video.

Projector shows 4K / HDR is active, and with the direct connection, not one issue!!

Back to the Lumagen, the video dropouts appear to happen with greater frequency after the movie has been playing for a while. So I might guess the unit is possibly overheating. However, my equipment sits in a temp controlled room (has it's own minisplit) that stays at 72deg. The Lumagen box is cold to the touch all the time, in fact, never really hear the fan going the room is so cold.

Honestly, I'm out of idea's. Why the 18ghz cards in both the Strato / Oppo do not appear to have an issue vs the Lumagen is confusing. One would think the more expensive video processor would send a stronger signal vs weaker one.

I'm def not moving the Lumagen closer to the projector, the conduit sits directly above the rack and the projector, exactly 30' separates them.

Is it possible the 18ghz card is defective?


----------



## Manni01

Hi Jim,

I've had a look at the sample shots I've been using to shape my 4000nits curve and do some testing, I had posted them here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-763.html#post51536881

I've also had a look at your shot at 38:13, and it looks like you have found one of the brightest parts of the movie, even if it's in a single frame. According to Arve's tool, it goes above 4000nits. I have to set hard clip to 6000nits to not clip any pixels in that shot. The explosions above go up to 4000nits or close, but not above.

I attach two screenshots, one with hard clip set to 4000nits, showing the clipping area, the other with hard clip set to 6000nits, showing no clipping. My curve is very conservative and is designed to show as much detail as possible in the highlights in 4000nits titles, even if it means losing a bit of brightness/contrast in 1000/1100nits titles, so I don't think this could account for the difference between my estimation of 6000nits and yours of 1760nits. Are you 100% sure of your value?


----------



## SJHT

tspotorno said:


> Continuation to the cable saga...
> 
> Since installing the 18ghz card, I have experienced a variety of video dropouts. They start after the movie has been playing for a while and then every couple (10) min or so. Video goes dark, sound stops, movie then picks back up in about 5-6 seconds...
> 
> Never fails, when there is alot of action in the movie, blackout...
> 
> It is embarrassing, annoying and unacceptable.
> 
> I have, like most people with the same issue, have tried a variety of cables, Ruipro Fiber, Monoprice , Ethereal, Mediabridge etc. Nothing seems to fix the issue. I have replace all of the device to Lumagen cables with 6' minimum passive cables. I have bought 2 of each cable to test both in case i get a bad cable, spent over a 1000.00 so far... Still nothing fixes the issue.
> 
> Today, I decided to eliminate the Lumagen from the picture... Hooked the Ruipro 15m cable directly from Oppo 203 to VW5000 projector and I watched Assasin's Creed 4K HDR without interruption.
> 
> I then tried the Strato, watched Arrival in 4K HDR, again both without an issue in the video.
> 
> Projector shows 4K / HDR is active, and with the direct connection, not one issue!!
> 
> Back to the Lumagen, the video dropouts appear to happen with greater frequency after the movie has been playing for a while. So I might guess the unit is possibly overheating. However, my equipment sits in a temp controlled room (has it's own minisplit) that stays at 72deg. The Lumagen box is cold to the touch all the time, in fact, never really hear the fan going the room is so cold.
> 
> Honestly, I'm out of idea's. Why the 18ghz cards in both the Strato / Oppo do not appear to have an issue vs the Lumagen is confusing. One would think the more expensive video processor would send a stronger signal vs weaker one.
> 
> I'm def not moving the Lumagen closer to the projector, the conduit sits directly above the rack and the projector, exactly 30' separates them.
> 
> Is it possible the 18ghz card is defective?


You should discuss with support. Might be your card. Try turning up the fan to max (9) as the minimum. Since noise is not an issue with my setup (or yours), I did this and eliminated all dropouts. SJ


----------



## talgo

Hi .. long time lurker but first post.. excuse my ignorance but with ref to the discs not reporting the correct mastering levels for HDR, could there be some sort of user database for this ?? Obviously everyones displays are different from super bright tiny screens to large cinema like screens but it could be a starting point ?
Tal


----------



## streits

Hi!

Had also big troubles with drop outs! Got some advices from Gordon!

In the last 2-3 days i had no drop outs! I raised the min Fan Speed to 7 (i never had more then 84 degrees) and played with the Output setting 'Rate match'!

I watched 4 movies in the last days and had no drop outs! 
I watched 1080p and 4k/HDR movies!
I will make some additional tests in the next days - i will report ...

Sigi


----------



## LJG

tspotorno said:


> Continuation to the cable saga...
> 
> Since installing the 18ghz card, I have experienced a variety of video dropouts. They start after the movie has been playing for a while and then every couple (10) min or so. Video goes dark, sound stops, movie then picks back up in about 5-6 seconds...
> 
> Never fails, when there is alot of action in the movie, blackout...
> 
> It is embarrassing, annoying and unacceptable.
> 
> I have, like most people with the same issue, have tried a variety of cables, Ruipro Fiber, Monoprice , Ethereal, Mediabridge etc. Nothing seems to fix the issue. I have replace all of the device to Lumagen cables with 6' minimum passive cables. I have bought 2 of each cable to test both in case i get a bad cable, spent over a 1000.00 so far... Still nothing fixes the issue.
> 
> Today, I decided to eliminate the Lumagen from the picture... Hooked the Ruipro 15m cable directly from Oppo 203 to VW5000 projector and I watched Assasin's Creed 4K HDR without interruption.
> 
> I then tried the Strato, watched Arrival in 4K HDR, again both without an issue in the video.
> 
> Projector shows 4K / HDR is active, and with the direct connection, not one issue!!
> 
> Back to the Lumagen, the video dropouts appear to happen with greater frequency after the movie has been playing for a while. So I might guess the unit is possibly overheating. However, my equipment sits in a temp controlled room (has it's own minisplit) that stays at 72deg. The Lumagen box is cold to the touch all the time, in fact, never really hear the fan going the room is so cold.
> 
> Honestly, I'm out of idea's. Why the 18ghz cards in both the Strato / Oppo do not appear to have an issue vs the Lumagen is confusing. One would think the more expensive video processor would send a stronger signal vs weaker one.
> 
> I'm def not moving the Lumagen closer to the projector, the conduit sits directly above the rack and the projector, exactly 30' separates them.
> 
> Is it possible the 18ghz card is defective?


I have an 18ghz card and a 9 GHZ card as outputs. I often run into dropped video/Audio (black screen loss of complete sync for a few seconds then A/V resyncs) on 18GHZ card mostly when the source is 1080i converted to 4K60, not so much and very rare 720P to 4K60, and never for 1080P24 or 4K UHD output at 4K24P, If I switch to 9 GHZ card everything plays perfectly. I have used several cables including the ethereal Ethereal HDM‑GA1 Gigabit Accelerator.


----------



## netroamer

streits said:


> Hi!
> 
> Had also big troubles with drop outs! Got some advices from Gordon!
> 
> In the last 2-3 days i had no drop outs! I raised the min Fan Speed to 7 (i never had more then 84 degrees) and played with the Output setting 'Rate match'!
> 
> I watched 4 movies in the last days and had no drop outs!
> I watched 1080p and 4k/HDR movies!
> I will make some additional tests in the next days - i will report ...
> 
> Sigi


I think Rate Match may have something to do with the blackouts. I changed it to "No" on the Roku input and saved. I also powered the Pro down/up and the Roku input was stable for the rest of the evening.


----------



## liltalkm

Hi everyone.

I am pondering purchasing a RadiancePro to pair up with my 77" G6 and have a question.

All of my sources are currently passed through my Marantz 8802a, is there any advantage of passing all of the HDMI sources directly into RadiancePro, or send the sources like I currently do to the 8802a and use the two video outputs from the Marantz.

Just trying to see if I need to buy an 8 input Radiance or if a 2 input will suffice.


----------



## netroamer

netroamer said:


> I think Rate Match may have something to do with the blackouts. I changed it to "No" on the Roku input and saved. I also powered the Pro down/up and the Roku input was stable for the rest of the evening.


Well...back to the drawing board! Tried to access the Roku and All I got was a black screen and low level raster flashing. Checking out the individual components, Roku and Pro, each works fine independently, but together, they will not consistently work.


----------



## tspotorno

ok lots of testing tonight...

1. Fan speed to 9. Really did not do anything. Room is very cold and the chip temp stayed at 60c / Board 48c the entire show.

2. Played with Genlock... Auto / Auto 24 and Off. Anything other than Off causes pink screen to appear every couple of min.

3. Never found Rate Lock as mentioned above. Assuming this is Genlock.

I am sending 3840x2160 24p HDR to the projector.

Probably going to call Lumagen tomorrow, sux cause output chip is a little involved to install...


----------



## netroamer

tspotorno said:


> ok lots of testing tonight...
> 
> 1. Fan speed to 9. Really did not do anything. Room is very cold and the chip temp stayed at 60c / Board 48c the entire show.
> 
> 2. Played with Genlock... Auto / Auto 24 and Off. Anything other than Off causes pink screen to appear every couple of min.
> 
> 3. Never found Rate Lock as mentioned above. Assuming this is Genlock.
> 
> I am sending 3840x2160 24p HDR to the projector.
> 
> Probably going to call Lumagen tomorrow, sux cause output chip is a little involved to install...



It is Rate Match not Rate Lock.


----------



## tspotorno

netroamer said:


> It is Rate Match not Rate Lock.


Thanks for that, I tried it on / off. Slightly different behavior, I get a stutter in the video / audio, then lose video (black screen) then it comes back. It appeared to happen more frequently, but cannot be sure.

I went back to turning it on.


----------



## sillysally

netroamer said:


> Well...back to the drawing board! Tried to access the Roku and All I got was a black screen and low level raster flashing. Checking out the individual components, Roku and Pro, each works fine independently, but together, they will not consistently work.


Did you try and reset the Roku, with the Pro and the display left on.
That works for me.

ss


----------



## netroamer

sillysally said:


> Did you try and reset the Roku, with the Pro and the display left on.
> That works for me.
> 
> ss


Do you mean a full factory reset that removes all account info etc.?


----------



## dlinsley

tspotorno said:


> Thanks for that, I tried it on / off. Slightly different behavior, I get a stutter in the video / audio, then lose video (black screen) then it comes back. It appeared to happen more frequently, but cannot be sure.
> 
> I went back to turning it on.


Since I've not seen you mention it, are you running recent firmware?


----------



## darrellh44

liltalkm said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I am pondering purchasing a RadiancePro to pair up with my 77" G6 and have a question.
> 
> All of my sources are currently passed through my Marantz 8802a, is there any advantage of passing all of the HDMI sources directly into RadiancePro, or send the sources like I currently do to the 8802a and use the two video outputs from the Marantz.
> 
> Just trying to see if I need to buy an 8 input Radiance or if a 2 input will suffice.


I have this question as well.

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## tspotorno

dlinsley said:


> Since I've not seen you mention it, are you running recent firmware?


Yep!

The unit is on it's way to Lumagen so they can take a look at it. Hopefully, they find out what is wrong.


----------



## sillysally

netroamer said:


> Do you mean a full factory reset that removes all account info etc.?


No, just a reset/restart. All your account info should still be saved in the Roku.

ss


----------



## sillysally

liltalkm said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I am pondering purchasing a RadiancePro to pair up with my 77" G6 and have a question.
> 
> All of my sources are currently passed through my Marantz 8802a, is there any advantage of passing all of the HDMI sources directly into RadiancePro, or send the sources like I currently do to the 8802a and use the two video outputs from the Marantz.
> 
> Just trying to see if I need to buy an 8 input Radiance or if a 2 input will suffice.


I run my video to the lumagen and audio to my sound system. Except for my Ruko that has only one HDMI output, in that case I simply use my display set it to output audio via optic cable to my sound system. However I guess I could use the Audio only output of the 18 GHz to my sound system.
Also I think the 9 GHz HDMI inputs are cheaper than the 18 GHz HDMI inputs. I have two 9 GHz video/audio inputs (one card) and two 18 GHZ inputs video/audio (one card).
Unlike the input cards the output 18 GHZ card only gives you one output for video and one for audio only, the 9GHz card you get two outputs for video and audio combined.

If you find you need more 18 or 9 GHz inputs, you can buy the card from Jim and install yourself, not to hard just use a good quality P1 screwdriver that has a fairly big grip so you can apply presser. Just be careful you don't strip the screw heads that are holding the HDMI card in place. Otherwise you have to get more creative to remove the stripped screws, but still very doable.

ss


----------



## darrellh44

sillysally said:


> I run my video to the lumagen and audio to my sound system. Except for my Ruko that has only one HDMI output, in that case I simply use my display set it to output audio via optic cable to my sound system. However I guess I could use the Audio only output of the 18 GHz to my sound system.
> Also I think the 9 GHz HDMI inputs are cheaper than the 18 GHz HDMI inputs. I have two 9 GHz video/audio inputs (one card) and two 18 GHZ inputs video/audio (one card).
> Unlike the input cards the output 18 GHZ card only gives you one output for video and one for audio only, the 9GHz card you get two outputs for video and audio combined.
> 
> If you find you need more 18 or 9 GHz inputs, you can buy the card from Jim and install yourself, not to hard just use a good quality P1 screwdriver that has a fairly big grip so you can apply presser. Just be careful you don't strip the screw heads that are holding the HDMI card in place. Otherwise you have to get more creative to remove the stripped screws, but still very doable.
> 
> ss


How do you avoid lip sync problems with separate audio and video paths? I'm assuming auto-sync won't work in this case.

My AVR is HDMI 2.0a (18Gb) compatible. Is there any reason to not use the AVR to perform all switching between sources, and then only send a single HDMI 2.0a signal to the LumagenPro? My Lumagen output only goes to a PJ, so no audio is needed.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

darrellh44 said:


> How do you avoid lip sync problems with separate audio and video paths? I'm assuming auto-sync won't work in this case.
> 
> My AVR is HDMI 2.0a (18Gb) compatible. Is there any reason to not use the AVR to perform all switching between sources, and then only send a single HDMI 2.0a signal to the LumagenPro? My Lumagen output only goes to a PJ, so no audio is needed.



You can do it either way you want. Many folk switch through their receivers and use single input on a 4240 or 4440. Lip sync is not an issue either way and can be dialled in on your receiver as required. In some cases you get more robust switching going direct to lumagen and in others the alternate....

Gordon


----------



## Jack D

Jack D said:


> Good question. How do you know for sure? I've run 4K BR. Also 4k Amazon streaming. I was advised that for streaming 4K you should use 18GHz inputs because of the way the 4K is implemented on those streams.
> 
> Bottom line is that anything I've sent through that pipe has worked so far.





mikela said:


> Were you able to confirm?


Sorry for the slow reply. I have the Pro set to upscale to 4K so everything going through the Ruipro (15m) is 4K. I also have HDMI set on auto which means the Pro will send 422 at 12 bit. So for 4K60 it will definitely require 10-18 Ghz. And I've noticed no dropouts or other video problems.


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> You can do it either way you want. Many folk switch through their receivers and use single input on a 4240 or 4440. Lip sync is not an issue either way and can be dialled in on your receiver as required. In some cases you get more robust switching going direct to lumagen and in others the alternate....
> 
> Gordon


Thanks for the response. So in terms of lip-sync, is the processing delay thru the LumagenPro fairly constant (within a few msec) independent of the input bandwidth or which features are turned on?


----------



## kaotikr1

darrellh44 said:


> Thanks for the response. So in terms of lip-sync, is the processing delay thru the LumagenPro fairly constant (within a few msec) independent of the input bandwidth or which features are turned on?




I use mine exactly the way you are asking about which is running all my devices through a Anthem AVM60 first and I have yet to have any AV sync issues and i have played videos from Oppo, Dish, chromecast, Apple TV and my gaming systems.


----------



## Jack D

darrellh44 said:


> Thanks for the response. So in terms of lip-sync, is the processing delay thru the LumagenPro fairly constant (within a few msec) independent of the input bandwidth or which features are turned on?


FWIW. I have the Pro do the switching and then use one output on the Pro to my Meridian processor for audio. When I first introduced the Pro and my JVC 950 projector, I had some big lip sync issues. I had to fidddle around with the sync function in the Meridian but now I don't mess with it at all. It stays on the same setting for all inputs and I don't have any problems.


----------



## jrp

darrellh44 said:


> Thanks for the response. So in terms of lip-sync, is the processing delay thru the LumagenPro fairly constant (within a few msec) independent of the input bandwidth or which features are turned on?


The audio delay through the Radiance Pro is always less than a micro-second. So zero in human terms.

The video delay through the Radiance Pro is about 25 mS plus up to 1 input frame/field time (17 mS for 60 Hertz input, 42 mS for 24p input) if Genlock is turned off (default).

==== 

We have reworked the Genlock and a new version will be in the next release along with HDR Intensity Mapping. With the current Genlock there are some devices (mostly projectors) that do not work with the Genlock PLL clock "step size." The new release makes the step size much smaller and so hopefully Genlock will work well with all projectors and TVs. We ask that those who have had issues with the current Genlock to give the new Genlock a try and see if it resolves the issues.

With Genlock on, the video delay through the Radiance Pro is fixed at about 25 mS, plus or minus a couple mS, independent of the input resolution or input rate.

==== 

The HDR Intensity Mapping plus new Genlock software update should be out by Friday unless something comes up.


----------



## darrellh44

jrp said:


> The audio delay through the Radiance Pro is always less than a micro-second. So zero in human terms.
> 
> The video delay through the Radiance Pro is about 25 mS plus up to 1 input frame/field time (17 mS for 60 Hertz input, 42 mS for 24p input) if Genlock is turned off (default).
> 
> ====
> 
> We have reworked the Genlock and a new version will be in the next release along with HDR Intensity Mapping. With the current Genlock there are some devices (mostly projectors) that do not work with the Genlock PLL clock "step size." The new release makes the step size much smaller and so hopefully Genlock will work well with all projectors and TVs. We ask that those who have had issues with the current Genlock to give the new Genlock a try and see if it resolves the issues.
> 
> With Genlock on, the video delay through the Radiance Pro is fixed at about 25 mS, plus or minus a couple mS, independent of the input resolution or input rate.
> 
> ====
> 
> The HDR Intensity Mapping plus new Genlock software update should be out by Friday unless something comes up.


Perfect. That's the answer I was hoping for. Lip sync been an ongoing battle with my LS10000 which has more than 150 msec of delay variance depending on the input signal and how much upscaling and processing is enabled in the PJ. It's going to be nice having the Pro always scale the video to same format going into the PJ.

Are most people with a LumagenPro and LS10000 scaling all sources so the LS10000 always sees 10-bit 1080p, 4:4:4 with maybe some Darbee enhancement? I'd rather avoid the 18Gb HDMI output upgrade on the Pro if possible.


----------



## SJHT

I have found for my setup that only 4K24 output requires lip sync changes for my audio system. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

In my experience and that of most of my clients, except one. Sending 4K to an LS10000 from a Pro will give a much better image than sending 1080P and letting the LS10000 do it's inferior 4K processing.


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> In my experience and that of most of my clients, except one. Sending 4K to an LS10000 from a Pro will give a much better image than sending 1080P and letting the LS10000 do it's inferior 4K processing.


If I send 1080p to my LS10000, I wouldn't turn on e-shift. My thought is 1080p with 10-bit WCG, 4:4:4, and some Darbee enhancement from the Pro would do better than 4K with 8-bits, 4:2:2 and no Darbee.


----------



## Wookii

darrellh44 said:


> If I send 1080p to my LS10000, I wouldn't turn on e-shift. My thought is 1080p with 10-bit WCG, 4:4:4, and some Darbee enhancement from the Pro would do better than 4K with 8-bits, 4:2:2 and no Darbee.


AFAIK there is no 1080P content in 10bit Rec2020. There is no reason to upsample standard 1080P blu ray to 10bit, and you can't convert it to WCG. You should also be able to apply Darbee to the incoming 1080P video before having the Radiance Pro upscale it to 2160P (I think - don't quote me on that last point I'm working from memory).

So it really just comes down to whether you prefer the upscaling abilities of Epsons e-shift or the Radiance Pro, or indeed just prefer viewing 1080P in native resolution.


----------



## darrellh44

Wookii said:


> AFAIK there is no 1080P content in 10bit Rec2020. There is no reason to upsample standard 1080P blu ray to 10bit, and you can't convert it to WCG. You should also be able to apply Darbee to the incoming 1080P video before having the Radiance Pro upscale it to 2160P (I think - don't quote me on that last point I'm working from memory).
> 
> So it really just comes down to whether you prefer the upscaling abilities of Epsons e-shift or the Radiance Pro, or indeed just prefer viewing 1080P in native resolution.


This would be for sourcing UHD and downsampling it to 1080p while preserving 10-bit WCG (and 4:4:4 if available). If I keep UHD at 4K into the LS10000, there is no way to include 10-bit video or 4:4:4 sub-sampling. Again, I would not enable e-shift or the LS10000's 4k upscaling.

My goal would be to scale all sources (up or down) to 1080p to send to the LS10000 while including as much of any other content features as possible. I sit far enough away from the screen not to see SDE with my display set to 1080p. Even for 4K sources, e-shift still adds some amount of softening.


----------



## sillysally

What I do is send the Pro the UHD 2020 video signal from the Oppo 203 then have the Pro send SDR/2020 to my EF9500 using my cLUT calibrations done with WCG. That way I get 10 bit color depth and the high bit rate of the UHD video. But that only works if the video is mastered in 1000 nits.
If mastered in 4000 peak nits and HDR10 I send the video signal from the Oppo directly to my EF9500 (max nits about 435).
So hopefully the upcoming HDR Intensity Mapping will help with all of that, and I can find the best way to convert a properly done HDR profile to make the cLUT using LightSpace. 

ss


----------



## Gordon Fraser

darrellh44 said:


> If I send 1080p to my LS10000, I wouldn't turn on e-shift. My thought is 1080p with 10-bit WCG, 4:4:4, and some Darbee enhancement from the Pro would do better than 4K with 8-bits, 4:2:2 and no Darbee.


4:2:2 out of the Pro is always 12 bit


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> 4:2:2 out of the Pro is always 12 bit


The problem is the LS10000 cannot accept anything other than 8-bit video when receiving 4k. I assume this has to do with the LS10000's limited 10.2Gb HDMI input, but this statement is straight from the horse's mouth (meaning Epson's engineering team in Japan) based on correspondence I had with Epson in an incident ticket. So the compromise I'm trying to decide is: a) keep 4K and and live with 8-bit WCG and 4:2:2 (or maybe even 4:2:0), or b) input and display using 1080p and get basically everything else (including 12-bit video if that's what the Pro sends out).


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The Epson can receive 12BIT 4:2:2 4K at 24Hz as i have sent that to many of them. The issue maybe that the processing pipeline for incoming 4K in the unit can't work at 12bit so may downsample to 8 internally of course.


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> The Epson can receive 12BIT 4:2:2 4K at 24Hz as i have sent that to many of them. The issue maybe that the processing pipeline for incoming 4K in the unit can't work at 12bit so may downsample to 8 internally of course.


What does it show for Bit Depth in the LS10000's Info menu when you send in 12BIT 4:2:2 4K at 24Hz? According to Epson, if it shows "---", then it's only using 8-bits. It wasn't clear if this meant the resolution was lowered at the HDMI input or further down its internal pipeline, or whether or not dithering was used to 'restore' higher bits depths at the panels. But bottom line with 4K inputs, there is not a continuous source-to-panel path for 10-bit or 12-bit video.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Lumagen do not signal it is 12bit for a 4:2:2 output so no displays, as far as I know, would report the bit depth of that signal from one....so they say --- You should send an email to Lumagen support to check whether this is correct but i think it is.

i don't dispute your last comment at all. I am just poiting out that regardless of what a display may report the output of the Pro when sending 4:2:2 is 12bit....not 8bit

Gordon


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> Lumagen do not signal it is 12bit for a 4:2:2 output so no displays, as far as I know, would report the bit depth of that signal from one....so they say --- You should send an email to Lumagen support to check whether this is correct but i think it is.
> 
> i don't dispute your last comment at all. I am just poiting out that regardless of what a display may report the output of the Pro when sending 4:2:2 is 12bit....not 8bit
> 
> Gordon


And my point is it doesn't matter what the Pro is putting out if it gets down-rezed at any point before it gets to the panels. It's an Epson question not a Lumagen one.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Indeed, and this is a thread about the Radiance Pro....so I am clearing up the possible confusion that the pro can output 8bit 4:2:2

I understand why you are wanting to do what you are doing.


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> Indeed, and this is a thread about the Radiance Pro....so I am clearing up the possible confusion that the pro can output 8bit 4:2:2
> 
> I understand why you are wanting to do what you are doing.


Ok, sorry going for OT. So given that you understand what I'm wanting to to, what's your opinion on the better compromise, ie, 4K @8-bit or 1080p @12-bit (assuming this is the choice the LS10000 is forcing)?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

It is indeed an interesting dilemma. I'm at a dealers tomorrow with an LS10500 which i expect works the same as an LS10000 and I will do myself the demo with some UHD content from Strato and Oppo203 through their Pro and will report back. The danger is banding being more visible if the Epson runs at 8BIT for 4K sources so i'll try to find some content that will show that. I think Mad Max has a scene where it's all blue at night and i have seen banding in the sky on that scene on many displays...and i can't beleive it's encoded on the disc....


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> It is indeed an interesting dilemma. I'm at a dealers tomorrow with an LS10500 which i expect works the same as an LS10000 and I will do myself the demo with some UHD content from Strato and Oppo203 through their Pro and will report back. The danger is banding being more visible if the Epson runs at 8BIT for 4K sources so i'll try to find some content that will show that. I think Mad Max has a scene where it's all blue at night and i have seen banding in the sky on that scene on many displays...and i can't beleive it's encoded on the disc....


My understanding is the LS10500 does not have this restriction with 4K. Maybe there's a way to force the Pro to 8-bits, but from what you said earlier, maybe not. 

Thanks for your patience in answering my questions, and thanks in advance for any future info you can provide based on experiments.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

well i'll see if they have a s/h LS10000 knocking around. I have to say that i've not seen any improvement in image quality on an LS10500 over an LS10000 though with Radiance Pro.


----------



## jrp

darrellh44 said:


> Ok, sorry going for OT. So given that you understand what I'm wanting to to, what's your opinion on the better compromise, ie, 4K @8-bit or 1080p @12-bit (assuming this is the choice the LS10000 is forcing)?


If the LS10000 only processes 8-bits for 4k sources, you would set the Radiance Pro output Dither (in the Style menu) to 8-bit.

I think the choice of 4k24 4:2:2 (no matter the bit depth in the LS10000 in this mode) verses 1080p 12-bit 4:2:2 processing in the LS10000 is something you need to test and decide for yourself. You can program two memories (say MEMA and MEMB) to switch between the 4k and 1080p choices. You do this in the Output Setup Menu.

That said, for SDR sources I do think the choice of 4k24 4:2:2 and 4k60 4:2:0 would be the better option. For HDR, if the internal processing is only 8 bit, there could be some small amount of contouring since HDR is 10-bits. So that is the choice you need to make based on your testing.


----------



## jrp

We are really close with the HDR Intensity Mapping release. We are finding that more control can help tune the HDR image and we are adding two additional controls in the HDR Intensity Mapping Parameter Menu. So we are adding new controls which is delaying the release slightly. Should be in the next couple days though.

The controls we will have are:

*Ratio*: Adjust the calculated Source Mastering Level to the Display Maximum Brightness ratio.

*Shape*: Adjust how rapid or smooth the transition from the nit-for-nit range to the roll off range is.

*Clip*: Adjust how much clipping (if any) there is near the maximum input range.

*Transition*: Adjust how much of the input range to try to reproduce "nit-for-nit" verses the source.

*Gamma*: Adjust the Gamma response. Note that this is a back door to adjust the Gamma_Factor parameter. We thought it good to add it in the HDR parameter menu to simplify changes.

*Black*: Adjust the Black level. We are finding that reducing the Black level some when using HDR Intensity Mapping improves the image perceived contrast ratio.

There is a HDR Intensity Mapping Parameter menu for each input memory (MEMA to MEMD). So you can setup several mappings and quickly step between them for a visual comparison.

You can also temporarily turn off HDR Intensity Mapping, or show a split-screen with HDR mapping on the right half, for a visual comparison. However, be aware that TVs often change the output brightness based on average picture level of their input. So turning off the HDR mapping, or going split-screen, may not be an apples to apples comparison due to the TV/projector changing its response as a result of the changed levels from the Pro.

There will also be a debug feature. When using HDR Intensity Mapping this feature turns pixels above the programmed linear-Gamma threshold into flashing-red pixels. This is intended as a way to help characterize source levels as we are seeing that the levels in general are not using as much of the source range we we expected. We are making this available to show why virtually nothing gets clipped by *Clip* and the *Shape* or *Transition* are not affecting the image as much as we expected. Note that this also works with SDR but for SDR sources the level is programmed in source Gamma rather than linear Gamma. We reserve the right to remove this feature at any time.

To enable the debug mode enter MENU 0532. You adjust the threshold in percent. You will see that for most scenes there are generally no pixels above 20%, which is generally in the nit-for-nit range where *Shape*, *Clip*, and *Transition*, have little or no effect. There are of course scenes (such as gun muzzle flashes, and explosions in Mad Max Fury Road) that have bright elements that are affected by these controls.


----------



## thrang

^ sounds great Jim

Hopefully you will provide some good documentation for how to use this feature.

Thanks


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> ^ sounds great Jim
> 
> Hopefully you will provide some good documentation for how to use this feature.


I am working on an update to the manual for HDR Intensity mapping and plan to put it on our website coincident with the release.

However, there is going to be a learning curve for use and especially for calibration. So we will be updating the manual and posting here as we learn more on best practices for HDR Intensity Mapping.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> I am working on an update to the manual for HDR Intensity mapping and plan to put it on our website coincident with the release.
> 
> However, there is going to be a learning curve for use and especially for calibration. So we will be updating the manual and posting here as we learn more on best practices for HDR Intensity Mapping.


More broadly - and I'm not ashamed to admit it - I am fairly lost using the radiance pro at all for 2020/hdr (for my 5000 projector) In the past (709/SDR), I used chrompaure with auto cal and got excellent results without doing more then pressing a button

As a non-professional, I have very little background on color theory and terminology as it relates to calibration. 

I'm really hoping an auto-cal solution for 2020/hdr comes sooner than later - this has become the video equivalent of being knee deep in REW for audio tweaking.

Not a complaint to you Jim, but I am hoping there is more from the hw/sw providers that addresses the non-pro - sort of like running Dirac, Room Perfect, or ARC does for the audio side...


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> We are really close with the HDR Intensity Mapping release. We are finding that more control can help tune the HDR image and we are adding two additional controls in the HDR Intensity Mapping Parameter Menu. So we are adding new controls which is delaying the release slightly. Should be in the next couple days though.
> 
> The controls we will have are:
> 
> *Ratio*: Adjust the calculated Source Mastering Level to the Display Maximum Brightness ratio.
> 
> *Shape*: Adjust how rapid or smooth the transition from the nit-for-nit range to the roll off range is.
> 
> *Clip*: Adjust how much clipping (if any) there is near the maximum input range.
> 
> *Transition*: Adjust how much of the input range to try to reproduce "nit-for-nit" verses the source.
> 
> *Gamma*: Adjust the Gamma response. Note that this is a back door to adjust the Gamma_Factor parameter. We thought it good to add it in the HDR parameter menu to simplify changes.
> 
> *Black*: Adjust the Black level. We are finding that reducing the Black level some when using HDR Intensity Mapping improves the image perceived contrast ratio.
> 
> There is a HDR Intensity Mapping Parameter menu for each input memory (MEMA to MEMD). So you can setup several mappings and quickly step between them for a visual comparison.
> 
> You can also temporarily turn off HDR Intensity Mapping, or show a split-screen with HDR mapping on the right half, for a visual comparison. However, be aware that TVs often change the output brightness based on average picture level of their input. So turning off the HDR mapping, or going split-screen, may not be an apples to apples comparison due to the TV/projector changing its response as a result of the changed levels from the Pro.
> 
> There will also be a debug feature. When using HDR Intensity Mapping this feature turns pixels above the programmed linear-Gamma threshold into flashing-red pixels. This is intended as a way to help characterize source levels as we are seeing that the levels in general are not using as much of the source range we we expected. We are making this available to show why virtually nothing gets clipped by *Clip* and the *Shape* or *Transition* are not affecting the image as much as we expected. Note that this also works with SDR but for SDR sources the level is programmed in source Gamma rather than linear Gamma. We reserve the right to remove this feature at any time.
> 
> To enable the debug mode enter MENU 0532. You adjust the threshold in percent. You will see that for most scenes there are generally no pixels above 20%, which is generally in the nit-for-nit range where *Shape*, *Clip*, and *Transition*, have little or no effect. There are of course scenes (such as gun muzzle flashes, and explosions in Mad Max Fury Road) that have bright elements that are affected by these controls.


Sounds good Jim. Glad you are adding more controls, this is all going in the right direction.

Two questions:

1) Did you have a chance to check your debug feature? I don't understand why you read the gun muzzle flash at 1760nits and I read it at 6000nits. Which level do you read for the explosions I provided the timecode to? They are close to 4000nits as far as I can see.

2) What do you mean exactly by little content above 20%? Legacy reference white (100nits) is 50% in HDR, so there is quite a lot of content between 20% and 50%. There is not that much above that most of the time, but content does go significantly above 100nits some of the time, up to 80-90% with 4000nits titles. Please could you confirm 20% of what? I assume we're not talking about the same scale/reference and I struggle to see what you're referring to. Is it just the percentage threshold of your control, with no link to the stimulus of the content? If iy is the case, how do you equate arbitrary % in control and % (stimulus)/nits in content?


----------



## alex_t

thrang said:


> More broadly - and I'm not ashamed to admit it - I am fairly lost using the radiance pro at all for 2020/hdr (for my 5000 projector) In the past, I used chrompaure with auto cal and got excellent results without doing more then pressing a button
> 
> As a non-professional, I have very little background on color theory and terminology as it relates to calibration.
> 
> I'm really hoping an auto-cal solution for 2020/hdr comes sooner than later - this has become the video equivalent of being knee deep in REW for audio tweaking.
> 
> Not a complaint to you Jim, but I am hoping there is more from the hw/sw providers that addresses the non-pro - sort of like running Dirac, Room Perfect, or ARC does for the audio side...


Hello.

I definitively recommand you to try LightSpace CMS. This calibration software can interact with Radiance PRO and, as far as I know, it is the best software available at the moment for generating 3DLUT. Take a look at Light Illusion website. There are manuals for the software itself and for its integration with Radiance.

I use LightSpace CMS and I can generate 3DLUT in Radiance for months to make HDR/REC2020 even with a video projector which cannot handle HDR, see an example here (in French): http://performances-home-cinema.fr/2017/01/07/hdr-video-projection-lumagen-radiance-pro-part-1/

As another example, I can do HDR/REC2020 with my old JVC X35 (by adding an HDfury integral to make the JVC X35 HDCP 2.2 compliant). Result is pretty good, it should be really improved with HDR intensity mapping. (I have not had time to test that yet)

I assume that you have the Sony 5000es as video projector, right ? I have already calibrated/assessed one and I'm pretty sure that once you get the firmware with HDR intensity mapping you should get an amazing picture by setting the 5000 in its HDR mode, activating HDR intensity mapping in Radiance and without using any 3DLUT. Of course with a 3DLUT the result will be better.

I have tested a pre-release of HDR intensity mapping for a week with a JVC X7500 I'm assessing for a review and I can tell you that without any 3DLUT activated the result in HDR mode is already amazing (set up was : Samsung 8500> Radiance with HDR intensity mapping ON and CMS in passthrough to output HDR/REC2020) > JVC X7500 with its HDR mode activated with all its parameters by default). Next step is to add a 3DLUT.

I have also tested the conversion HDR/REC2020 to SDR gamma 2.4/REC2020 by using a 3DLUT in conjunction with HDR intensity mapping and the result is really impressive (I think the new control for black level should bring a big improvement).

Alexandre


----------



## OMARDRIS

alex_t said:


> I have tested a pre-release of HDR intensity mapping for a week with a JVC X7500 I'm assessing for a review and I can tell you that without any 3DLUT activated the result in HDR mode is already amazing (set up was : Samsung 8500> Radiance with HDR intensity mapping ON and CMS in passthrough to output HDR/REC2020) > JVC X7500 with its HDR mode activated with all its parameters by default). Next step is to add a 3DLUT.
> 
> I have also tested the conversion HDR/REC2020 to SDR gamma 2.4/REC2020 by using a 3DLUT in conjunction with HDR intensity mapping and the result is really impressive (I think the new control for black level should bring a big improvement).


Hi Alexandre,
Thank you for your information about your first impressions of intensity mapping.
Perhaps you or Jim can answer a question about the interaction between 3-D-LUT and intensity mapping.

If I create with LightSpace an LUT for ST2084/BT2020, I get in reality as a result 2 LUTs.
A 3-D LUT for color mapping and a 1D-LUT for gamma mapping.

For my non-HDR/BT2020 projector VW1100ES the color mapping takes 2 important tasks. Once it makes the RGB triplets from the BT2020 container readable for the projector, since it does not know BT2020.
Secondly, the BT2020 color space, which is a DCI color space in size, adapts to the limited color space of the projector. I can confirm that LightSpace is doing a very good job here.
The 1-D-LUT for the gamma-mapping tries, as good because of the low light output of the projector goes, an adaptation to the ST2084 curve. LightSpace offers controllers for clipping and the possibility of soft clipping.

Now my real question:
At which point does the Intensity Mapping of the Radiance Pro work?
What happens with the Gamma curve loaded by LightSpace?
Is the 1-D-LUT of LightSpace loaded, disabled, or overlaid?
Or does LightSpace have to create a special LUT, which is adapted to the intensity mapping?

I hope my question is not so stupid that I am ashamed 
Peter


----------



## alex_t

Hi Peter,

_does LightSpace have to create a special LUT, which is adapted to the intensity mapping?_

Your question is actually THE question to ask and unfortunately I don't have the answer at the moment.

Maybe Jim will post soon some explanations, I hope so.

Alexandre



OMARDRIS said:


> Hi Alexandre,
> Thank you for your information about your first impressions of intensity mapping.
> Perhaps you or Jim can answer a question about the interaction between 3-D-LUT and intensity mapping.
> 
> If I create with LightSpace an LUT for ST2084/BT2020, I get in reality as a result 2 LUTs.
> A 3-D LUT for color mapping and a 1D-LUT for gamma mapping.
> 
> For my non-HDR/BT2020 projector VW1100ES the color mapping takes 2 important tasks. Once it makes the RGB triplets from the BT2020 container readable for the projector, since it does not know BT2020.
> Secondly, the BT2020 color space, which is a DCI color space in size, adapts to the limited color space of the projector. I can confirm that LightSpace is doing a very good job here.
> The 1-D-LUT for the gamma-mapping tries, as good because of the low light output of the projector goes, an adaptation to the ST2084 curve. LightSpace offers controllers for clipping and the possibility of soft clipping.
> 
> Now my real question:
> At which point does the Intensity Mapping of the Radiance Pro work?
> What happens with the Gamma curve loaded by LightSpace?
> Is the 1-D-LUT of LightSpace loaded, disabled, or overlaid?
> Or does LightSpace have to create a special LUT, which is adapted to the intensity mapping?
> 
> I hope my question is not so stupid that I am ashamed
> Peter


----------



## LJG

I agree regarding non-professional use, it would be very helpful to receive some general default settings for the intensity mapping and go from there. Since the Sony VPLVW5000ES has the HDR slider which affects Gamma it's interaction with the Radiance intensity mapping will be interesting. It would be great to somehow disable the HDR slider in the 5000ES or be able to set it to a default number


----------



## thrang

Lightspace certainly appears powerful but again, geared toward the pro calibrator - as far as I can see, there is no auto calibration mode like Chrompaure, though there is no support for 2020/hdr auto calibration yet between CP and Lumagen either (Tom at CP seems to indicate there is much more work to be done my Lumagen to support auto cal for 2020/hdr)

To me, the market widens considerably for the hw/sw developers in this space if they really focus on supporting the consumer re: auto calibration features. Think automated audio calibration solutions. It can be done

And Lon, as you note, workflow baselines will be important too - what settings in input and output devices are needed to even start correctly are unclear - I've also been trying to find out what the range of Sony's HDR Contrast slider means. I think the slider at 100 means the curve is set to clip at 400 nits - I think....setting it lower changes the curve to higher nit values. But frankly as I type this I don't even know what I'm saying...


----------



## SJHT

When Gordon finishes his step by step guide for doing LUTs, etc. I will try Lightspace again. I need something that is very specific to the Pro. Right Gordon??


----------



## mhafner

So when no 3D LUT is used for the HDR mapping there is no external software and sensor needed and only the Radiance?


----------



## BakeApples

LJG said:


> I agree regarding non-professional use, it would be very helpful to receive some general default settings for the intensity mapping and go from there. Since the Sony VPLVW5000ES has the HDR slider which affects Gamma it's interaction with the Radiance intensity mapping will be interesting. It would be great to somehow disable the HDR slider in the 5000ES or be able to set it to a default number


I also agree, i have the Sony VW550/675 which also has the HDR slider which i am currently have set to max level but i have no idea where this should be set in conjunction with the intensity mapping?

For the moment, i will not be using any 3D LUT so this brings another question, which of the Sony presets should i have as baseline for HDR viewing with the intensity mapping? Right now, i use the Cinema Film 2 for both REC709 and BT2020.


----------



## thrang

*Rec 709 SDR Calibration:*












*2020/HDR Calibration:*


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Just quick update. 

I can confirm LS10500 reports 12BIT correctly from Pro output. They didn't have a s/h 10000 for me to look at so couldn't do the demo and as it happens i didn't have time due to other stuff.

I hear what everyone else is saying about guide and it will come but the new HDR firmware is a learning curve so i will want to get it all out as one document once i've got a handle on that. Sorry!

Gordon


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Lightspace certainly appears powerful but again, geared toward the pro calibrator - as far as I can see, there is no auto calibration mode like Chrompaure, though there is no support for 2020/hdr auto calibration yet between CP and Lumagen either (Tom at CP seems to indicate there is much more work to be done my Lumagen to support auto cal for 2020/hdr)
> 
> To me, the market widens considerably for the hw/sw developers in this space if they really focus on supporting the consumer re: auto calibration features. Think automated audio calibration solutions. It can be done
> 
> And Lon, as you note, workflow baselines will be important too - what settings in input and output devices are needed to even start correctly are unclear - I've also been trying to find out what the range of Sony's HDR Contrast slider means. I think the slider at 100 means the curve is set to clip at 400 nits - I think....setting it lower changes the curve to higher nit values. But frankly as I type this I don't even know what I'm saying...



I've been thinking about the auto work flow idea with HDR and the Lumagen and I honestly don't see a way to do it properly. With SDR it is easy since the standards are all there. With HDR you are going to tone map regardless when it comes to a projector. So if you have a workflow, the only way to make it automatic is if the workflow knew what type of tone map you are going to use, which I don't see how it could. Jim's workaround is to do an auto calibration for 2.2 and 2020 color and then apply his EOTF over that. This allows for calibration of the grayscale so your RGB levels are good, but I don't see how this would give you control over the white point for each point along the EOTF. 


For CalMan I could use the Lumagen and just measure the output using their HDR10 workflow with Jim's tools in place to see how it tracks along with EOTF with whatever peak I am aiming for and then just manually adjust white/RGB using the Lumagen. It isn't as easy as the auto cal push once and done, but it shouldn't take a long time either. This is what I've been doing with the JVC gamma software already, except with the Lumagen I can assign the gamma points in the calibration menu to any point I want. This would allow me to shape the curve to match the intended EOTF and dial in the RGB levels. 


Another issue is whether doing a 2020 LUT with a standard gamma will deliver the same result when you apply a different EOTF.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> I've been thinking about the auto work flow idea with HDR and the Lumagen and I honestly don't see a way to do it properly. With SDR it is easy since the standards are all there. With HDR you are going to tone map regardless when it comes to a projector. So if you have a workflow, the only way to make it automatic is if the workflow knew what type of tone map you are going to use, which I don't see how it could. Jim's workaround is to do an auto calibration for 2.2 and 2020 color and then apply his EOTF over that. This allows for calibration of the grayscale so your RGB levels are good, but I don't see how this would give you control over the white point for each point along the EOTF.
> 
> 
> For CalMan I could use the Lumagen and just measure the output using their HDR10 workflow with Jim's tools in place to see how it tracks along with EOTF with whatever peak I am aiming for and then just manually adjust white/RGB using the Lumagen. It isn't as easy as the auto cal push once and done, but it shouldn't take a long time either. This is what I've been doing with the JVC gamma software already, except with the Lumagen I can assign the gamma points in the calibration menu to any point I want. This would allow me to shape the curve to match the intended EOTF and dial in the RGB levels.
> 
> 
> Another issue is whether doing a 2020 LUT with a standard gamma will deliver the same result when you apply a different EOTF.


Thanks Kris, though I still think some formal guide is required for non-technical people like me.

For example, what determines what "tone map" one wants to use? Is it based on a projectors peak white output? If so couldn't this be part of an auto cal routine (where it profiles your projector's capabilies based on certain test pattern readings?)

What does shaping the curve to match the EOTF mean? 

I would like to use the Pro but it does next to nothing for me right now since I don't have a clue what the process is for 2020/hdr.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Pro / HDR intensity mapping savvy calibrators*

Is there a listing (eg by state) of Lumagen Pro / HDR intensity mapping savvy calibrators?
This was noted in AVS here. 
cc @jrp


*ISF Professionals who can calibrate the Pioneer 9G Non-Elites (PDP-5020FD/PDP-6020FD)*
These Professional Calibrators are Licensed to use ControlCAL.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...neer-9g-non-elites-pdp-5020fd-pdp-6020fd.html


*Thread: THX Certified Video Calibrator*
http://www.thxvideotech.com/forum/showthread.php?542-THX-Certified-Video-Calibrator


These compilations are old (it seems) and in some cases websites talk about CRTs and things.

Thoughts?

Mike


----------



## Kris Deering

I understand it is frustrating. I am not sure what software you are using but when I am talking about matching the EOTF think of this as is your gamma tracking properly. With SDR you would select 2.2, or 2.3 or 1886 and then measure gamma and see how it tracks. With HDR it is EOTF, not gamma, and it has FIXED values. They are always the same. So you measure how your projector is tracking. But our projectors can't do the brightness that is required by the 2084 EOTF. So to make it easier you apply a multiplier to the readings to make it look right in the measurements. This doesn't mean you are actually getting those levels of brightness, but you'll now see how your projector is doing at those points in relation to each other only in the brightness range you are trying to emulate with your light output. I've been using a peak brightness emulation of 800 nits for my projector with great results. So I divide 800 nits by my actual peak white reading and use the number as the multiplier for looking at my data. 


Having just measured the 5000ES at Axpona with HDR using this same process with Calman it was pretty easy overall. The slider in the 5000ES can be used to get the EOTF pretty linear overall, but Jim's tools should let you dial in the tone map if the default doesn't suit your tastes. 


I know what I just typed doesn't really answer a lot of your questions, but trying to type out how this all works isn't something I have time for unfortunately. There is a learning curve to all this for sure, but you also have to remember that there IS NO STANDARD FOR ANY OF THIS. So EVERYTHING being done when it comes to HDR calibration on projectors is best guess to make it look okay, similar to how tone mapping is being done on flat panels that can't reach HDR peak levels either. Jim is approaching it in one way with his software and the Lumagen Pro, just like Sony approached it in another way with the HDR slider on your projector. One isn't necessarily better than the other to be honest, it is just another option. Jim's gives you a workaround for doing a calibration around it, though in a different way than we've seen previously. I'm more familiar with the JVC projectors since that is what I use and there are several different options there due to the work being done by enthusiasts, but they are in the same boat as well.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike_WI said:


> Is there a listing (eg by state) of Lumagen Pro / HDR intensity mapping savvy calibrators?
> This was noted in AVS here.
> cc @*jrp*
> 
> 
> *ISF Professionals who can calibrate the Pioneer 9G Non-Elites (PDP-5020FD/PDP-6020FD)*
> These Professional Calibrators are Licensed to use ControlCAL.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...neer-9g-non-elites-pdp-5020fd-pdp-6020fd.html
> 
> 
> *Thread: THX Certified Video Calibrator*
> http://www.thxvideotech.com/forum/showthread.php?542-THX-Certified-Video-Calibrator
> 
> 
> These compilations are old (it seems) and in some cases websites talk about CRTs and things.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Mike



Seeing as how this software isn't even available yet except for a couple beta testers I don't think you'll see anything like this for awhile. The concept is still being developed and changed based on feedback, so expecting a calibrator to be able to do it right now is a bit much. HDR calibration for projectors as a whole is probably asking a lot from 99.9% of them, and again, with no standard in place you are simply getting settings that have produced something they thought that looked good, not an "accurate" picture per se. The only real accuracy you can hope for is decent grayscale tracking, no obvious clipping in the image and good relative EOTF tracking. I suppose gamut tracking as well, but most of these projectors are about the same in this regard so far and I don't know how much a LUT would really help in this regard at the moment and we still don't know how the calibration of 2020 works with an HDR EOTF. 


I still stand by my comments from before that if you are actually looking for an accurate image on a projector you should just convert to SDR. Whether that means SDR2020 or SDR709 is even debatable as I'm not sure if the conversion to SDR2020 is actually accurate because the color volume is so different. This would still give you the benefits of 4K and 10 bit though but you wouldn't be trying to figure out how to emulate the EOTF. This format was never designed with projectors in mind when it comes to the consumer format.


----------



## sillysally

Chris uses Calman it seems, so that isn't a proper comparison if you use LightSpace.
He is correct saying not to use autocal when using Calman, Lightspace for cLUT using autocal is much better. As long as you have properly setup your pre profile settings in your display.

Lets see how well Jim's new 'intensity mapping' works, before second guessing it.
I plan on making a cLUT for disc that are 1000 nits and one for 4000 nits to start with, and then go from there.

However I have a EF9500 OLED that maxes out at about 435 nits, although higher than a protestor it still is fairly low for HDR.

ss


----------



## Mike_WI

Kris Deering said:


> Seeing as how this software isn't even available yet except for a couple beta testers I don't think you'll see anything like this for awhile. The concept is still being developed and changed based on feedback, so expecting a calibrator to be able to do it right now is a bit much. HDR calibration for projectors as a whole is probably asking a lot from 99.9% of them, and again, with no standard in place you are simply getting settings that have produced something they thought that looked good, not an "accurate" picture per se. The only real accuracy you can hope for is decent grayscale tracking, no obvious clipping in the image and good relative EOTF tracking. I suppose gamut tracking as well, but most of these projectors are about the same in this regard so far and I don't know how much a LUT would really help in this regard at the moment and we still don't know how the calibration of 2020 works with an HDR EOTF.
> 
> 
> I still stand by my comments from before that if you are actually looking for an accurate image on a projector you should just convert to SDR. Whether that means SDR2020 or SDR709 is even debatable as I'm not sure if the conversion to SDR2020 is actually accurate because the color volume is so different. This would still give you the benefits of 4K and 10 bit though but you wouldn't be trying to figure out how to emulate the EOTF. This format was never designed with projectors in mind when it comes to the consumer format.





sillysally said:


> Chris uses Calman it seems, so that isn't a proper comparison if you use LightSpace.
> He is correct saying not to use autocal when using Calman, Lightspace for cLUT using autocal is much better. As long as you have properly setup your pre profile settings in your display.
> 
> Lets see how well Jim's new 'intensity mapping' works, before second guessing it.
> I plan on making a cLUT for disc that are 1000 nits and one for 4000 nits to start with, and then go from there.
> 
> ss


Thanks.
It is hard for someone like me that doesn't want to invest in the time or equipment to do a DIY professional job on calibrating (but maybe I should).
Also, it is hard to find out if calibrators know this information.
It seems like the handful of people on this and other AVS threads gets it, but I suspect Kris Deering is correct that the average local calibrator is totally oblivious to some of these issues, especially when adding in something like a Lumagen RadiancePro video processor.

I suspect we'll see a major FW update soon from Jim and then multiple tweaks after that.
I guess I should just sit on what I've got and wait a few months for it to become more clear.

Mike


----------



## darrellh44

Kris Deering said:


> there IS NO STANDARD FOR ANY OF THIS. So EVERYTHING being done when it comes to HDR calibration on projectors is best guess to make it look okay


When you say there is no standard, does that mean there is no standard for calibrating an HDR EOTF, or that there is no UHD content coding standards, or both? Do you have any feel if existing UHD discs are already encoded with the necessary info such that once UHD standards are more solid, a single processor/PJ calibration will be able to display UHD as intended for all discs (within the limits of the display) without having to change calibration settings for each disc? Given the current state of things, I hesitate to invest in a lot of UHD discs knowing I'll either have to tweak for each one, or repurchase them once the standards are better.


----------



## Kris Deering

sillysally said:


> Chris uses Calman it seems, so that isn't a proper comparison if you use LightSpace.
> He is correct saying not to use autocal when using Calman, Lightspace for cLUT using autocal is much better. As long as you have properly setup your pre profile settings in your display.
> 
> Lets see how well Jim's new 'intensity mapping' works, before second guessing it.
> I plan on making a cLUT for disc that are 1000 nits and one for 4000 nits to start with, and then go from there.
> 
> However I have a EF9500 OLED that maxes out at about 435 nits, although higher than a protestor it still is fairly low for HDR.
> 
> ss


Correct, I am not sure how LS's implementation works, it sounds like you add a multiplier and then say how you want your clip points to work. 


Having done extensive amounts of HDR work on my JVC I don't see a lot of point in doing different tone maps for 4000 nit titles vs 1000 nit titles. The amount of overhead you are leaving for content above standard APLs (100 nits) is so small that I just don't see how doing different curves for both buy you much. 


Another issue with Jim's solution is I don't see how you can use it with any of the projector's actual HDR modes. It makes sense when he talks about setting up the display for 2.2 with 2020 and then overlaying this, but if you do it with the existing HDR mode how to do compensate for their own tone map?


----------



## Kris Deering

darrellh44 said:


> When you say there is no standard, does that mean there is no standard for calibrating an HDR EOTF, or that there is no UHD content coding standards, or both? Do you have any feel if existing UHD discs are already encoded with the necessary info such that once UHD standards are more solid, a single processor/PJ calibration will be able to display UHD as intended for all discs (within the limits of the display) without having to change calibration settings for each disc? Given the current state of things, I hesitate to invest in a lot of UHD discs knowing I'll either have to tweak for each one, or repurchase them once the standards are better.




The HDR EOTF is WELL documented and absolute regardless of the display you are using. It is actually easier to understand than SDR gamma which is variable based on your measured white and black levels. What is not standardized is the tone mapping involved with making a display that can't meet the defined points of the EOTF. This applies just as much to flat panels as it does projectors, but it is more difficult for projectors because your peak white is so much lower than a flat panel so you have a LOT more area to roll off in the tone map. But the concept is the same, apply a roll off of the area above your peak white to your defined clip point (whether this is 1000, 1200, 4000 or 10,000 nits) and have that area mapped in the compressed amount of space you allocate for it. 


So think of it like this, you have a projector and you usually calibrate for 16fL for peak white when you watch Blu-ray. But your projector could actually go as bright as 30 fL if you wanted it to (100 nits). Now you want to watch HDR. HDR has information all the way to x (let's use 1000 nits). You setup the projector to output its peak brightness and get 100 nits (30 fL). In HDR the average picture level of any image remains the same as when you watch SDR, the brighter part of the image is for NUMBER ONE color volume and NUMBER TWO specular highlights. So since your APL stays the same, you still want the majority of the image to be in the 0-16 fL range you were using before and take the extra light you get from 17 to 30 fL to use for the tone map for the part of the image that is represented in HDR from 100 nits to 1000 nits. You are compressing that range into those 14 fL of headroom you have and we're trying to do that intelligently. If we don't use just hard clip at your peak output (in this case 100 nits) and everything above that is just a solid white and the image looks like crap whenever you see anything above that range.


----------



## sillysally

Kris Deering said:


> Correct, I am not sure how LS's implementation works, it sounds like you add a multiplier and then say how you want your clip points to work.


Correct.



Kris Deering said:


> Having done extensive amounts of HDR work on my JVC I don't see a lot of point in doing different tone maps for 4000 nit titles vs 1000 nit titles. The amount of overhead you are leaving for content above standard APLs (100 nits) is so small that I just don't see how doing different curves for both buy you much.


On paper yes, but using LightSapce for a cLUT that may make a difference. 
Of course you need a processor that can input/output 18 Ghz and able to process/store your cLUT.

So maybe if you are interested try LightSpace and see for yourself.
Of course the meters you use/ patch window size and how you make a meter matrix will make a difference.



Kris Deering said:


> Another issue with Jim's solution is I don't see how you can use it with any of the projector's actual HDR modes. It makes sense when he talks about setting up the display for 2.2 with 2020 and then overlaying this, but if you do it with the existing HDR mode how to do compensate for their own tone map?


As you know when trying to calibrate for ST.2086/2020, it all depends on the disc you are using for video playback. I bet when you use a 4000 nit mastered disc it will look darker than a 1000 nit master disc, at least that is how it is on my EF9500 OLED.

As I said lets wait and see how Jim's solution works. Bottom line is with a 100 max nit projector you have to get very creative to get reasonable results when trying to view a HDR disc. Like trying to put 10 lb in a 5 pound bag, something has to give.

ss


----------



## Kris Deering

I understand the 4000 nit vs 1000 nit thing, but again, the tone map for a projector should be so aggressive already (limited amount of space to put the range into) that the difference between the two shouldn't be that much. Again, I've done it both ways, as has Manni, and the difference isn't enough to justify IMHO. 


My concern with Jim's tool was if it was overlayed onto an existing HDR mode for a display. Honestly this applies to almost any display because very few aren't doing some type of tone map. The only way to defeat their built in one would be to trick the display into thinking it wasn't seeing HDR, but I'm not sure if some flat panels limit their brightness if not in an HDR mode, or let you engage a wider gamut. But unless you take into account their own tone mapping I think the results would get really wonky. Again, this is only if using a displays HDR mode alongside Jim's tools.


----------



## sillysally

I am not disagreeing with you I have the same concerns you do, particularly with a projector.
You can max out the light output on the LG OLED and set it to WCG without going into HDR mode. 
The only issue is if you do max light output you are going to clip your WRGB, my OLED starts to clip a little over 95%. So when I set my white point I use 240,240,240 for WRGB settings and profile my meter's using the same. 
Therefor I am not using 100% light output, don't know when your projector starts to clip but that probably will lower your light output even more. And using the WCG for HDR as you should, what happens to the Luminace with a low light output projector.

So the question is, it is it worth trying to use UHD disc's for a 100 nit projector particularly the 4000 nit disc's.
I would almost think at the end of the day you would be just as well off using SDR blu ray's or SDR/2020 using a 1000 nit mastered UHD disc, if that makes the mind happier (placebo affect).

ss


----------



## Kris Deering

sillysally said:


> I am not disagreeing with you I have the same concerns you do, particularly with a projector.
> You can max out the light output on the LG OLED and set it to WCG without going into HDR mode.
> The only issue is if you do max light output you are going to clip your WRGB, my OLED starts to clip a little over 95%. So when I set my white point I use 240,240,240 for WRGB settings and profile my meter's using the same.
> Therefor I am not using 100% light output, don't know when your projector starts to clip but that probably will lower your light output even more. And using the WCG for HDR as you should, what happens to the Luminace with a low light output projector.
> 
> So the question is, it is it worth trying to use UHD disc's for a 100 nit projector particularly the 4000 nit disc's.
> I would almost think at the end of the day you would be just as well off using SDR blu ray's or SDR/2020 using a 1000 nit mastered UHD disc, if that makes the mind happier (placebo affect).
> 
> ss




I think if you can achieve around 100 nits it is definitely worth it. I typically calibrate SDR for about 16 fL, so you're getting nearly double the light output for the extra range. The difference is visible. I am installing a new screen in a couple weeks that will probably bring my light output down a bit so I will know first hand what happens when you don't have at least 100 nits. I'll experiment with all the options (HDR/SDR2020/SDR709) and figure out what works for me. 


This last weekend I help setup and calibrate a Sony 5000ES on a 14ft wide ST130 microperf scope screen. With SDR we were getting around 20 fL. With HDR I think we were closer to 30ish. With that screen size and flipping back and forth between HDR and SDR I have to say the difference didn't stand out as much. The SDR images just looked fantastic at that size and light output (BD scaled to 4K via the Lumagen Pro). Will be interesting to see what I can do when my new 10ft wide scope screen arrives.


----------



## SJHT

Watched Planet Earth 2. New Oppo 205 (using one HDMI for video and the second audio HDMI with their new jitter reduction feature), into my Lumagen Pro (HDR2020 in and SDR2020 4K24 out) to my JVC RS600 using a custom Gamma curve. Screen is a ST100. Was simply the finest picture I have ever seen on my system. Even my wife commented how great it looked. . Looking forward to the new shaping LUTs to improve this even more, but wow.... SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Watched Planet Earth 2. New Oppo 205 (using one HDMI for video and the second audio HDMI with their new jitter reduction feature), into my Lumagen Pro (HDR2020 in and SDR2020 4K24 out) to my JVC RS600 using a custom Gamma curve. Screen is a ST100. Was simply the finest picture I have ever seen on my system. Even my wife commented how great it looked. . Looking forward to the new shaping LUTs to improve this even more, but wow.... SJ




Not sure why you expect the new shaping to improve this more. If you have a JVC and use the Arve tool you are essentially coming up with a HDR curve that is dialed in specifically for your projector. The Lumagen is just giving you different options for tone maps, but so far it isn't quite to the extent that the Arve tool is doing and I honestly don't see how it will best it. What the Lumagen does that is fantastic is the ability to do the LUT calibrations, but even that is tricky because I don't see how to do a LUT that takes into account the HDR gamma curve used. 


I guess one way would be to do a 2020 LUT calibration for color only (skip the gamma step) and have the target be 2020HDR (if using CalMan). This way it does not change the gamma curve before hand. You could also just do a manual grayscale/gamma using the Lumagen before going to that step. Maybe I'll try that this week or weekend and see how it works out.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure why you expect the new shaping to improve this more. If you have a JVC and use the Arve tool you are essentially coming up with a HDR curve that is dialed in specifically for your projector. The Lumagen is just giving you different options for tone maps, but so far it isn't quite to the extent that the Arve tool is doing and I honestly don't see how it will best it. What the Lumagen does that is fantastic is the ability to do the LUT calibrations, but even that is tricky because I don't see how to do a LUT that takes into account the HDR gamma curve used.
> 
> 
> I guess one way would be to do a 2020 LUT calibration for color only (skip the gamma step) and have the target be 2020HDR (if using CalMan). This way it does not change the gamma curve before hand. You could also just do a manual grayscale/gamma using the Lumagen before going to that step. Maybe I'll try that this week or weekend and see how it works out.


Let us know how you get on Kris. I was under the impression that the 3D LUT was inherently tied to a target gamma though?

I guess the ideal is, having established an ideal gamma curve for your display, you import that into Calman somehow so the LUT is using that same gamma curve as a target. I have tried using the gamma curve creator that comes with Calman for that purpose, but I can't seem to get it to work properly.

How do you currently measure your gamma for HDR using Calman? I know the HDR workflow uses the ST2084 EOTF, and you can use the screen offset, but what are you measuring the upper part of the curve from the soft clip point onwards against?

I see the Radiance HDR Intensity Mapping being of most benefit to owners of those displays that don't have the use of gamma shaping software, such as Arve's program, available to them, or JVC owners who don't want to use Arve's software.

Hopefully Calman will support the HDR Intensity mapping directly somehow, such that it will adjust the parameters based on measurements, for a full auto-cal. I know that means adding support for something that has no set standards, but one thing that seeing multiple people using Arve's program did seem to reveal is that there were common denominators for the curves generated despite different Ypeaks. 

I would have thought it would be mathematically possible for Calman to determine an ideal curve based on measured peak brightness and measured black floor. From that it should be able to extrapolate the ideal multiplier to apply to the ST2084 EOTF, together with an optimal soft clip, roll-off gradient and shape, and hard clip point for any given display to generate a target gamma curve.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> Let us know how you get on Kris. I was under the impression that the 3D LUT was inherently tied to a target gamma though?
> 
> I guess the ideal is, having established an ideal gamma curve for your display, you import that into Calman somehow so the LUT is using that same gamma curve as a target. I have tried using the gamma curve creator that comes with Calman for that purpose, but I can't seem to get it to work properly.
> 
> How do you currently measure your gamma for HDR using Calman? I know the HDR workflow uses the ST2084 EOTF, and you can use the screen offset, but what are you measuring the upper part of the curve from the soft clip point onwards against?
> 
> I see the Radiance HDR Intensity Mapping being of most benefit to owners of those displays that don't have the use of gamma shaping software, such as Arve's program, available to them, or JVC owners who don't want to use Arve's software.
> 
> Hopefully Calman will support the HDR Intensity mapping directly somehow, such that it will adjust the parameters based on measurements, for a full auto-cal. I know that means adding support for something that has no set standards, but one thing that seeing multiple people using Arve's program did seem to reveal is that there were common denominators for the curves generated despite different Ypeaks.
> 
> I would have thought it would be mathematically possible for Calman to determine an ideal curve based on measured peak brightness and measured black floor. From that it should be able to extrapolate the ideal multiplier to apply to the ST2084 EOTF, together with an optimal soft clip, roll-off gradient and shape, and hard clip point for any given display to generate a target gamma curve.




In CalMan for color profile you can select 2020 SDR or HDR. I thought I'd try 2020HDR for the color calibration and see what happens. I just won't do the gamma calibration before it for obvious reasons. As for the upper part of the curve from the soft clip point onward I am not measuring that against anything really, only looking at RGB tracking there. This is the area that is the problem we are talking about largely because there is no standard to measure against. 


I completely agree on where the benefits are. And I also think they do extend to JVC owners as some don't want to try and do something like Arve's tool, which has a learning curve of its own. This may eventually provide a simpler solution. I imagine most Radiance Owners have their installed by a calibrator so the setup would largely be based on their skill at adopting and implementing it. But there are other simple tools as well. Oppo has their crack at it with their HDR setup options as does Panasonic with their UB900 slider for HDR, which has been getting very good feedback from users. 


The problem with your idea with possibilities with Calman is that because there is no standard tied to tone mapping there is no "ideal" anything. It is all kind of trial and error based on the variables. I suppose they could do some research where they experiment with different peak values and come up with solutions that fit in windows (display 1 40-50nits, display 2 50-70 nits, etc) and then recommend settings for those based on their research and impression. But they typically like to implement things that are based on standards so I'm not sure they would go for it.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure why you expect the new shaping to improve this more. If you have a JVC and use the Arve tool you are essentially coming up with a HDR curve that is dialed in specifically for your projector. The Lumagen is just giving you different options for tone maps, but so far it isn't quite to the extent that the Arve tool is doing and I honestly don't see how it will best it. What the Lumagen does that is fantastic is the ability to do the LUT calibrations, but even that is tricky because I don't see how to do a LUT that takes into account the HDR gamma curve used.
> 
> 
> I guess one way would be to do a 2020 LUT calibration for color only (skip the gamma step) and have the target be 2020HDR (if using CalMan). This way it does not change the gamma curve before hand. You could also just do a manual grayscale/gamma using the Lumagen before going to that step. Maybe I'll try that this week or weekend and see how it works out.


Do you think it will be possible to just leave my JVC on ONE setting and have the Pro do everything based upon the input? It can switch between CMSs based upon SDR, HDR, etc. that would make things easier. I've not done the ARVE TOOL yet, but just uploaded via the JVC software some of the curves created by a few folks. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Do you think it will be possible to just leave my JVC on ONE setting and have the Pro do everything based upon the input? It can switch between CMSs based upon SDR, HDR, etc. that would make things easier. I've not done the ARVE TOOL yet, but just uploaded via the JVC software some of the curves created by a few folks. Thanks. SJ




Jim's method of doing a LUT calibration with a 2.2 gamma and 2020 color would work for this. But I don't know if that is the way I'd do it. I have a single input used on my JVC and I just have three profiles that I use: HDR, SDR and 3D. I have different CMS's for each in the Lumagen that automatically switch based on the input signal but I have three different user profiles in the JVC for them. I use Natural for SDR, HDR for HDR and one of the user memories for 3D. Then I just have to push the direct button for each depending on what I know I'm watching (I have the Lumagen stripping the HDR frame so the JVC doesn't know it is getting HDR so it doesn't automatically go to the HDR preset).


----------



## sillysally

Kris Deering said:


> I think if you can achieve around 100 nits it is definitely worth it. I typically calibrate SDR for about 16 fL, so you're getting nearly double the light output for the extra range. The difference is visible. I am installing a new screen in a couple weeks that will probably bring my light output down a bit so I will know first hand what happens when you don't have at least 100 nits. I'll experiment with all the options (HDR/SDR2020/SDR709) and figure out what works for me.
> 
> 
> This last weekend I help setup and calibrate a Sony 5000ES on a 14ft wide ST130 microperf scope screen. With SDR we were getting around 20 fL. With HDR I think we were closer to 30ish. With that screen size and flipping back and forth between HDR and SDR I have to say the difference didn't stand out as much. The SDR images just looked fantastic at that size and light output (BD scaled to 4K via the Lumagen Pro). Will be interesting to see what I can do when my new 10ft wide scope screen arrives.


With all do respect, why not get a 77" 2017 LG OLED (max white around 800 nits) and compare side by side with your giant screen projector using a HDR ST.2086/2020/Dolby vision and see what you are missing with the projector. 
Don't forget to move your seats closer to the OLED or move the OLED closer to your seats.

Seriously if I had your setup I would be doing the same thing you are doing, working around the projectors limitations. Just like my EF9500's broken Gamut, brightness and low W/B grayscale settings, what a mess that was.
That to me is the fun of this hobby, I am sure you will get to a acceptable level of your high standards.

ss


----------



## Kris Deering

sillysally said:


> With all do respect, why not get a 77" 2017 LG OLED (max white around 800 nits) and compare side by side with your giant screen projector using a HDR ST.2086/2020/Dolby vision and see what you are missing with the projector.
> Don't forget to move your seats closer to the OLED or move the OLED closer to your seats.
> 
> Seriously if I had your setup I would be doing the same thing you are doing, working around the projectors limitations. Just like my EF9500's broken Gamut, brightness and low W/B grayscale settings, what a mess that was.
> That to me is the fun of this hobby, I am sure you will get to a acceptable level of your high standards.
> 
> ss




LOL. Actually I have already done what you are talking about. I have a 65" C7 OLED and I compare HDR quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, HDR on my projector looks fantastic right now using the Arve tool with my JVC. I'm skeptical how I'll feel when I get my bigger screen in though, but I'm looking forward to it. When I compare HDR on the projector to the OLED the difference subjectively really isn't that much. Sure the OLED is brighter overall, and tighter focus (true 4K and smaller screen) but I don't feel like I'm losing a lot (and never mind the screen size benefits and such). We'll see if I feel the same when I install the new screen.


----------



## loggeo

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure why you expect the new shaping to improve this more. If you have a JVC and use the Arve tool you are essentially coming up with a HDR curve that is dialed in specifically for your projector. The Lumagen is just giving you different options for tone maps, but so far it isn't quite to the extent that the Arve tool is doing and I honestly don't see how it will best it. What the Lumagen does that is fantastic is the ability to do the LUT calibrations, but even that is tricky because I don't see how to do a LUT that takes into account the HDR gamma curve used.


With all do respect, I really believe that you should try Lightspace with Lumagen Pro. You can create your own custom gamma curve just as you do with Arve Tool and generate a lut targeting rec.2020 and custom gamma. At the same time you use lumagen pro to remove metadata and have dynamic iris on JVC.
Of course you can have most of this stuff at minimum cost (spyder, hd linker), but if you already own a lumagen pro it is worth the effort.
You can try various combinations and luts within seconds.


----------



## Kris Deering

loggeo said:


> With all do respect, I really believe that you should try Lightspace with Lumagen Pro. You can create your own custom gamma curve just as you do with Arve Tool and generate a lut targeting rec.2020 and custom gamma. At the same time you use lumagen pro to remove metadata and have dynamic iris on JVC.
> Of course you can have most of this stuff at minimum cost (spyder, hd linker), but if you already own a lumagen pro it is worth the effort.
> You can try various combinations and luts within seconds.




Maybe I'll look into it. I'm used to using Calman and not sure how much of a learning curve there is with the LS software, plus the added cost for another piece of software. I'm VERY happy with my current results, I'm just brainstorming what can and can't be done with the Lumagen's updated features at the moment.


----------



## loggeo

Kris Deering said:


> Maybe I'll look into it. I'm used to using Calman and not sure how much of a learning curve there is with the LS software, plus the added cost for another piece of software. I'm VERY happy with my current results, I'm just brainstorming what can and can't be done with the Lumagen's updated features at the moment.


I also use Calman. I don't believe it would be that hard for them to add a tool like Arve's so we could calibrate to a certain gamma generated. 
Regarding Shaping Lut I too cannot see how it can be implemented to any calibration software. 
But it is always nice to have the option.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Maybe I'll look into it. I'm used to using Calman and not sure how much of a learning curve there is with the LS software,* plus the added cost for another piece of software*. I'm VERY happy with my current results, I'm just brainstorming what can and can't be done with the Lumagen's updated features at the moment.


Its not cheap either if you want to be able to use it with your K10A - the 'home' orientated HTL version is locked for the K10A, and LS require you to buy the step up HTP version for three times the cost.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Its not cheap either if you want to be able to use it with your K10A - the 'home' orientated HTL version is locked for the K10A, and LS require you to buy the step up HTP version for three times the cost.


If you have a K10A I guess it is safe to say that spending money on calibration tools isn't an obstacle...


----------



## sillysally

In any case if you want to use a K10-A, Calman does the same thing as LightSpace as far as the extra cost goes.
The biggest difference is there is no annual fees from LightSpace to keep its software up to date. Calman charges I think about $200 a year to keep Calman up to date, a lot more than just the home enthusiast software.

ss


----------



## uderman

2017 LG Oleds have 17^3? And it also does this intensity mapping on its own way which may negatively interact with the lumagen one. What am I gaining with the radiance pro?(strictly on 4K sources)


----------



## jrp

Lots of activity on the Radiance Pro thread. I will try to address the questions generally rather than taking them individually. In addition I will put up some calibration thoughts in a separate post later.

First, as Manni01 asked about, the intensity for the Mad Max Fury Road muzzle flash at 38:13 is indeed about 4000 nits. My post of a lower number was in error. Also, other levels in the movies are higher than I thought as well.

We are really close to a HDR Intensity mapping release. Cleaning up the last details has taken longer than we thought even when we saw the finish line. Now we are hoping for Tuesday or Wednesday for the HDR mapping release.

There have been several comments and questions asking “why would one prefer to have the HDR Intensity mapping over a fixed HDR calibration (only).” One reason is “source variability.” This can be differences in editing decisions, or even the type of movie you are watching. With HDR Intensity Mapping, if you like you can change the look of the HDR source, or match different sources that have somewhat different levels, without a recalibration. With a fixed calibration you get one size fits all Tone Mapping. Of course, as Kris Deering said, you can get good results with calibration (only), and this approach is already being used with the Radiance Pro 3D LUT. The question is will every HDR movie look good using a single calibration? Perhaps, and perhaps not.

In addition, HDR Intensity Mapping works even without a calibration. While we recommend a full 3D/1D LUT calibration, you can get a significant benefit with the HDR Intensity Mapping without calibration. From reports by the Alpha sites, the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping is doing a better job than the single sliders provided in the projectors/TVs. One scene I am using to set parameters is Magnificent 7 at 16:00. Denzel Washington’s character is standing at the bar in a dark room with bright (out of focus) shrubbery visible through the Saloon doors. With HDR Intensity Mapping you can adjust both the dark areas, so people are not just silhouettes, and the bright shrubbery so it looks correct as well.

HDR Intensity Mapping is designed in anticipation of Dynamic Meta Data. The HDR Intensity Mapping is already capable of supporting dynamic changes like those that are necessary to support Dynamic Meta Data. We plan to add support for HDR10 Dynamic Metadata, which cannot be supported with a fixed calibration.


----------



## Manni01

jrp said:


> Lots of activity on the Radiance Pro thread. I will try to address the questions generally rather than taking them individually. In addition I will put up some calibration thoughts in a separate post later.
> 
> First, as Manni01 asked about, the intensity for the Mad Max Fury Road muzzle flash at 38:13 is indeed about 4000 nits. My post of a lower number was in error. Also, other levels in the movies are higher than I thought as well.
> 
> We are really close to a HDR Intensity mapping release. Cleaning up the last details has taken longer than we thought even when we saw the finish line. Now we are hoping for Tuesday or Wednesday for the HDR mapping release.
> 
> There have been several comments and questions asking “why would one prefer to have the HDR Intensity mapping over a fixed HDR calibration (only).” One reason is “source variability.” This can be differences in editing decisions, or even the type of movie you are watching. With HDR Intensity Mapping, if you like you can change the look of the HDR source, or match different sources that have somewhat different levels, without a recalibration. With a fixed calibration you get one size fits all Tone Mapping. Of course, as Kris Deering said, you can get good results with calibration (only), and this approach is already being used with the Radiance Pro 3D LUT. The question is will every HDR movie look good using a single calibration? Perhaps, and perhaps not.
> 
> In addition, HDR Intensity Mapping works even without a calibration. While we recommend a full 3D/1D LUT calibration, you can get a significant benefit with the HDR Intensity Mapping without calibration. From reports by the Alpha sites, the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping is doing a better job than the single sliders provided in the projectors/TVs. One scene I am using to set parameters is Magnificent 7 at 16:00. Denzel Washington’s character is standing at the bar in a dark room with bright (out of focus) shrubbery visible through the Saloon doors. With HDR Intensity Mapping you can adjust both the dark areas, so people are not just silhouettes, and the bright shrubbery so it looks correct as well.
> 
> HDR Intensity Mapping is designed in anticipation of Dynamic Meta Data. The HDR Intensity Mapping is already capable of supporting dynamic changes like those that are necessary to support Dynamic Meta Data. We plan to add support for HDR10 Dynamic Metadata, which cannot be supported with a fixed calibration.



Hi Jim,

Thanks for all this and for the clarification re Mad Max highlights. Does this discrepancy also explain your statement that there isn't much content above 20%? In my experience, most of the content lies below 50% (which is equal to legacy reference white, around 100nits), not 20%. The math would indicate that the two are connected. Do we agree on this as well? Otherwise please could you elaborate on the 20% you are referring to, as it can't be stimulus?

In my tests, I don't see much benefit using different curves vs one that hard clips at 4000nits with a black floor set to 0.005nits (with a JVC). What matters is to design the roll-off to find the best compromise between contrast for 1000nits titles and detail in the highlights for 4000nits titles that do use up to 4000nits, such as Mad Max. The roll-off starts around 350nits, with an angle towards the end of the curve that allows to show detail as we get nearer to the hard clip point. If the curve is too steep overall and the angle with the hard clip line too closed at the end, you get a tiny bit more contrast with 1000nits titles, but you soft clip detail in the highlights because there are not enough levels available to show the actual content (even if patterns show no clipping). If you have too open an angle in the soft end of the curve, you display more detail in the highlights, but you lose a bit of contrast for 1000nits titles. 

Because there are very few titles in 4000nits titles with content above 2500nits, and very few shots in these titles with details above 2500nits, there are two ways to get a good compromise with a single curve in my opinion: the quick and dirty, which is to hard clip around 2500nits, knowing that you'll lose a bit of detail in a few shots in a few films (at this stage), or the more time-consuming one which is to take the time to design the curve so that you find the best balance between contrast for 1000nits titles and detail in the highlights for 4000nits titles. The intensity mapping feature should allow to do both well. Of course, having a few other curves to deal with extreme cases or poorly mastered titles (there are a few, such as Divergent or The Fourth Phase which have a raised black level) is a good thing, but in my opinion one well-designed curve should cover 99% of the titles, at least with current static metadata.

It's great to hear that you have designed intensity mapping to take into account dynamic metadata.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> I also have an idea for you to try if you are so inclined. Buy a piece of Dynamat that will fit on the underside of the top cover. I believe (but have not confirmed) that it is actually the top cover mechanical vibration from the fan that is the main noise source for the fan.


OK, so after the Pro's revving fan failed the WAF last night I took it apart today and applied PC damping foam to the flat internal metal areas. This has a huge beneficial impact. I can put the fan up to 5 before I really start to hear it now, so I will now live with this for a while and see how it goes. I was careful not to block any internal air paths, so I hope it won't cause any issues.

But I think it will depend on the revving issue and I still think there's a firmware issue with the fan control...

I normally run the fan at setting 2 and for all SD/HD material it remains well behaved and silent no matter how many hours I run the Pro, because the temp never gets high. But with UHD material the Pro gets very hot very quickly and so the fan starts to kick up. So, last night, while watching the latest Better Call Saul in UHD the fan starts to speed up to cool things down. Then the fan went into revving mode, slowing and speeding, for about 10 minutes, before finally settling back down to fan 2 (oh, the relief!). And then about three minutes later the fans kicked in again as the temperature went back up and the cycle started over...

As I mentioned before, this revving only kicked in after a fan control firmware update, which is why I think it's firmware, rather than hardware related. 

Perhaps now I can set the fan to say a default of 4, from 2, it might keep the Pro cool enough to not have to engage the other cooling logic and hopefully avoid the revving issue.


----------



## G-Rex

Jim, since you are supporting HDR10 with Dynamic Metadata, I assume you will (or already do) offer full support for Dolby Vision as well, correct? 

Will a future FW be coming to limit fan noise? Also, will you be looking at doing improvements with the addition of sound insulating foam, as Mark_H did, to reduce fan noise? Would be nice if new units shipped with this cost effective and rather simple mod.

Lastly, do you have a new ETA on PiP and PoP?

Thanks!


----------



## Mark_H

Well, seems I spoke too soon re: the fan. Even with the damping it's still intrusive because of the revving once it has finished cooling and the fans start to slow down and then rev up/down/up/down for some time before finally settling. 

Looking at the internals it seems like the fan and the metal "tunnel" enclosure over the chip could be acting like a horn, magnifying the sound of the fan as is pushes air through the heatsink fins...

I think I may well have to get an enclosed TV stand to further attenuate the noise...


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Well, seems I spoke too soon re: the fan. Even with the damping it's still intrusive because of the revving once it has finished cooling and the fans start to slow down and then rev up/down/up/down for some time before finally settling.
> 
> Looking at the internals it seems like the fan and the metal "tunnel" enclosure over the chip could be acting like a horn, magnifying the sound of the fan as is pushes air through the heatsink fins...
> 
> I think I may well have to get an enclosed TV stand to further attenuate the noise...


Mark, given the size (and quality) of your room, are you not able to locate your kit in a server rack outside the listening room?


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> Mark, given the size (and quality) of your room, are you not able to locate your kit in a server rack outside the listening room?


I have two Pros... My cinema Pro is indeed in a separate room from the screen. It's the TV Pro giving me grief as it's in the same room as me when I'm watching stuff....


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> I have two Pros... My cinema Pro is indeed in a separate room from the screen. It's the TV Pro giving me grief as it's in the same room as me when I'm watching stuff....


Ah, I see. Yes, an enclosed cabinet might be your best option then.


----------



## Wookii

Regarding cables that are working with the Pro - I still keep getting video only drop outs on 2160p/60hz 4:2:2 12bit content that I think are the fault of the Celerity cable I currently have installed.

So I've just taken delivery of a 15m Ruipro fibre cable (very good service from them incidentally, I only ordered it on Thursday, and it was delivered today).

Before I start testing with it, I wondered, has everyone who has tried this cable found that it successfully passes a full fat signal without drop outs from the Radiance Pro? Has anyone encountered any problems with it at all?


----------



## G-Rex

Mark_H said:


> I have two Pros... My cinema Pro is indeed in a separate room from the screen. It's the TV Pro giving me grief as it's in the same room as me when I'm watching stuff....


In a good sized acoustically treated theater, is the Pro fan noise a concern on an open rack 14' away from the theater chairs?


----------



## jamesmil

Wookii said:


> Regarding cables that are working with the Pro - I still keep getting video only drop outs on 2160p/60hz 4:2:2 12bit content that I think are the fault of the Celerity cable I currently have installed.
> 
> So I've just taken delivery of a 15m Ruipro fibre cable (very good service from them incidentally, I only ordered it on Thursday, and it was delivered today).
> 
> Before I start testing with it, I wondered, has everyone who has tried this cable found that it successfully passes a full fat signal without drop outs from the Radiance Pro? Has anyone encountered any problems with it at all?


I'm still getting occasional dropouts/resyncs as well, but I don't think it is a cabling issue for two reasons:

- When Radiance is left out of the chain and source is directly connected to the projector using the same cable, no dropouts are seen. 

- In my case, I have a SDR projector, so the output should not be high bandwidth from the Radiance to the PJ.

I wish there was a way to capture debug output from the Radiance over the serial port so when the blank screen issue occurs we can collect more data as to what is going on.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jamesmil said:


> - In my case, I have a SDR projector, so the output should not be high bandwidth from the Radiance to the PJ.
> .


Jim has commented on this before. The fact you are sending SDR non 4k is actually not relevant in this instance. The issue is that the 4K chips have a much faster slew rate on output for all resolutions compared to the former hdmi1.3 chips in previous models. This means the design of the HDMI interface circuits have to be good and you can find that you get cases were systems are running just on the edge of their capabilities and they just drop over to wrong side occasionally and fail. I must admit it is extremely frustrating when you have intermittent issues that seem to be fixed, then suddenly come back.


re Dolby Vision: Jim has already said that it is unlikely there will be support for Dolby Vision. Never say never though...


----------



## Mike_WI

*DV*



Gordon Fraser said:


> Jim has commented on this before. The fact you are sending SDR non 4k is actually not relevant in this instance. The issue is that the 4K chips have a much faster slew rate on output for all resolutions compared to the former hdmi1.3 chips in previous models. This means the design of the HDMI interface circuits have to be good and you can find that you get cases were systems are running just on the edge of their capabilities and they just drop over to wrong side occasionally and fail. I must admit it is extremely frustrating when you have intermittent issues that seem to be fixed, then suddenly come back.
> 
> 
> re Dolby Vision: Jim has already said that it is unlikely there will be support for Dolby Vision. Never say never though...


Why not Dolby Vision if...


> HDR Intensity Mapping is designed in anticipation of Dynamic Meta Data. The HDR Intensity Mapping is already capable of supporting dynamic changes like those that are necessary to support Dynamic Meta Data. We plan to add support for HDR10 Dynamic Metadata, which cannot be supported with a fixed calibration.


Aren't HDR10 Dynamic Metadata and DV related processes?
There isn't current DV software in UHD, but expected soon, and I think people would expect an add on high end video processor to keep up with it.

Mike


----------



## Manni01

Mike_WI said:


> Why not Dolby Vision if...
> 
> Aren't HDR10 Dynamic Metadata and DV related processes?
> There isn't current DV software in UHD, but expected soon, and I think people would expect an add on high end video processor to keep up with it.
> 
> Mike



There are quite a few differences between HDR10+ (with dynamic metadata) and Dolby Vision:

- DV uses a 1080p optional layer to raise bit depth to 12bits. On UHD Bluray, this layer needs to be muxed with the UHD 10bits HDR mandatory layer to create the 12bits DV stream. This requires additional power and adds quite a bit of complexity to the process.
- Unlike HDR10, DV is a properly defined standard, from end to end (unlike HDR10 which is undefined on the consumer playback end). This means that any supported display has a specific implementation taking into account the peak brightness of the display. How would the Radiance Pro get a license as it's not tied to a specific display? How can you implement DV with projectors for which there are too many variables (throw distance, iris setting, lamp mode, lamp life etc) to have a fixed, known peak brightness? Dolby doesn't want to see Dolby Vision content displayed on displays poorly set-up or calibrated. With a panel and a fixed peak brightness, they can lock all the controls and you get something pretty repeatable from unit to unit. With a Radiance and an unknown end display, it would need a lot of convincing and many safeguards to get them to agree to a license. Remember that ST2084 is an absolute curve. Unlike Bt1886, which is a relative curve, the targets are not calculated from black and white readings. They are absolute luminance targets. If you don't know the luminance characteristics of each display, you cannot implement ST2084 properly and accurately.
- One way to implement DV in a projector would be to use an internal sensor (an external one is unlikely, the risk of user error is too large) measuring brightness once the PJ is set-up, and disable DV support as soon as a parameter changing peak brightness is moved (or locking all brightness-related controls). Still, it's a lot of work for a very small niche, so if it ever happens it's likely to take time.
- DV needs dedicated hardware (and a license) in the source and the display. Support could be implemented in the Radiance without the dedicated hardware, thanks to the powerful FPGA, but whether Dolby would agree to see DV content displayed on a non-DV licensed display/projector trusting a Radiance to guarantee the result on every single display connected to it seems like a big ask to me.

None if this is impossible, but this is just to explain that there are many differences between HDR10/HDR10+ and Dolby Vision that might explain why Lumagen might not be allowed to implement it, even if I'm sure they would like to do so. It might be perfectly possible to support DV in the Radiance Pro, but ultimately Dolby will decide if they will allow it or not, not Lumagen.

Dynamic metadata is only one aspect of DV. Perfect calibration (thanks to a properly and fully defined standard), higher bit depth, and hardware licensing requirements are other very important factors.

By the way, Dolby Vision cinema can't be used to justify DV on projectors for consumers, because it's using content specifically mastered for it (at 106nits peak brightness, not anything between 1000 and 4000nits as current HDR consumer content is), and the hardware is locked to ONE projector: the Dolby Vision projector (I think made by Christie). This combination of specific content and known hardware is the only reason why commercial DV is possible using projectors. Nothing to do with consumer DV content, so let's not start a discussion on that...


----------



## Mike_WI

*DV and HDR10/HDR10+*



Manni01 said:


> There are quite a few differences between HDR10+ (with dynamic metadata) and Dolby Vision:
> 
> - DV uses a 1080p optional layer to raise bit depth to 12bits. On UHD Bluray, this layer needs to be muxed with the UHD 10bits HDR mandatory layer to create the 12bits DV stream. This requires additional power and adds quite a bit of complexity to the process.
> - Unlike HDR10, DV is a properly defined standard, from end to end (unlike HDR10 which is undefined on the consumer playback end). This means that any supported display has a specific implementation taking into account the peak brightness of the display. How would the Radiance Pro get a license as it's not tied to a specific display? How can you implement DV with projectors for which there are too many variables (throw distance, iris setting, lamp mode, lamp life etc) to have a fixed, known peak brightness? Dolby doesn't want to see Dolby Vision content displayed on displays poorly set-up or calibrated. With a panel and a fixed peak brightness, they can lock all the controls and you get something pretty repeatable from unit to unit. With a Radiance and an unknown end display, it would need a lot of convincing and many safeguards to get them to agree to a license. Remember that ST2084 is an absolute curve. Unlike Bt1886, which is a relative curve, the targets are not calculated from black and white readings. They are absolute luminance targets. If you don't know the luminance characteristics of each display, you cannot implement ST2084 properly and accurately.
> - One way to implement DV in a projector would be to use an internal sensor (an external one is unlikely, the risk of user error is too large) measuring brightness once the PJ is set-up, and disable DV support as soon as a parameter changing peak brightness is moved (or locking all brightness-related controls). Still, it's a lot of work for a very small niche, so if it ever happens it's likely to take time.
> - DV needs dedicated hardware (and a license) in the source and the display. Support could be implemented in the Radiance without the dedicated hardware, thanks to the powerful FPGA, but whether Dolby would agree to see DV content displayed on a non-DV licensed display/projector trusting a Radiance to guarantee the result on every single display connected to it seems like a big ask to me.
> 
> None if this is impossible, but this is just to explain that there are many differences between HDR10/HDR10+ and Dolby Vision that might explain why Lumagen might not be allowed to implement it, even if I'm sure they would like to do so. It might be perfectly possible to support DV in the Radiance Pro, but ultimately Dolby will decide if they will allow it or not, not Lumagen.
> 
> Dynamic metadata is only one aspect of DV. Perfect calibration (thanks to a properly and fully defined standard), higher bit depth, and hardware licensing requirements are other very important factors.
> 
> By the way, Dolby Vision cinema can't be used to justify DV on projectors for consumers, because it's using content specifically mastered for it (at 106nits peak brightness, not anything between 1000 and 4000nits as current HDR consumer content is), and the hardware is locked to ONE projector: the Dolby Vision projector (I think made by Christie). This combination of specific content and known hardware is the only reason why commercial DV is possible using projectors. Nothing to do with consumer DV content, so let's not start a discussion on that...


Thanks.
I didn't know all that.
Tricky.

Mike


----------



## uderman

Jim said they asked Dolby for a meeting and Dolby declined saying they won't support video processors. I would say highly unlikely on DV. 

I was concerned for this at first. Uhd discs have hdr10 as mandatory and I don't care for streams. So I think in my case HDR10 will be sufficient. I guess hdr10 with dynamic metadata can match DV anyway?


----------



## Wookii

uderman said:


> Jim said they asked Dolby for a meeting and Dolby declined saying they won't support video processors. I would say highly unlikely on DV.
> 
> I was concerned for this at first. Uhd discs have hdr10 as mandatory and I don't care for streams. So I think in my case HDR10 will be sufficient. I guess hdr10 with dynamic metadata can match DV anyway?


The arrogance of Dolby never ceases to amaze me!

The question is whether a disc containing DV will also have dynamic HDR10 metadata. I know all discs have to have HDR10 as a mandatory requirement, even if they have DV, but does it have to be dynamic metadata or can it just be static as we currently have? If the latter, we're potentially going to end up getting short changed on DV discs if we either a) own a projector, or b) a video processor.


----------



## alex_t

Dear all

Just to inform you that the last pre-release for HDR intensity mapping I have tested gave me very consistent results. I use Radiance PRO and Lightspace CMS to feed my old JVC X35 with 3DLUT REC2020/ST2084 (with multiplier). My source is Samsung K8500.

With my large screen (3.5mx1.5m), the JVC X35 can output 34 nits at maximum. Thanks to the 3DLUT done with Lightspace and the new HDR intensity mapping feature, I have gotten a very very good picture. Not too bright, not too dark, with real color, and all the required information from each film I tested seemed well displayed (by comparison with the SDR/REV709 blu-ray).

I have only checked these results by sight.

I plan during the weekend to redo a new 3DLUT from a new profile (bigger than previous one) and to take some measurements, I will report my findings here if I think they are relevant enough.

Alexandre


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDR intensity mapping*

Great to hear.
Was expecting FW Tue or Wed, so hopefully soon with more feedback once released "in the wild".

Mike



alex_t said:


> Dear all
> 
> Just to inform you that the last pre-release for HDR intensity mapping I have tested gave me very consistent results. I use Radiance PRO and Lightspace CMS to feed my old JVC X35 with 3DLUT REC2020/ST2084 (with multiplier). My source is Samsung K8500.
> 
> With my large screen (3.5mx1.5m), the JVC X35 can output 34 nits at maximum. Thanks to the 3DLUT done with Lightspace and the new HDR intensity mapping feature, I have gotten a very very good picture. Not too bright, not too dark, with real color, and all the required information from each film I tested seemed well displayed (by comparison with the SDR/REV709 blu-ray).
> 
> I have only checked these results by sight.
> 
> I plan during the weekend to redo a new 3DLUT from a new profile (bigger than previous one) and to take some measurements, I will report my findings here if I think they are relevant enough.
> 
> Alexandre


----------



## Wookii

This is a some what timely thread, relating to our discussion on Dolby Vision:

Lionsgate and Sony Pictures Announce UHD Blu-rays with Dolby Vision


----------



## Mike_WI

*May the 4th be with you*



Wookii said:


> This is a some what timely thread, relating to our discussion on Dolby Vision:
> 
> Lionsgate and Sony Pictures Announce UHD Blu-rays with Dolby Vision


Thank you Wooki. May the 4th be with you.

Mike


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> Just quick update.
> 
> I can confirm LS10500 reports 12BIT correctly from Pro output. They didn't have a s/h 10000 for me to look at so couldn't do the demo and as it happens i didn't have time due to other stuff.
> 
> I hear what everyone else is saying about guide and it will come but the new HDR firmware is a learning curve so i will want to get it all out as one document once i've got a handle on that. Sorry!
> 
> Gordon


Please make the guide simple assuming it is being used with a Lumagen Pro for non experts. Lightspace is a powerful tool, but just want something simple, step by step, select this and do that in creating a 3D LUT. Realize that experts can get much more from the tool... let me know if you need any dummy testers. Thanks! SJ


----------



## mskreis

SJHT said:


> Please make the guide simple assuming it is being used with a Lumagen Pro for non experts. Lightspace is a powerful tool, but just want something simple, step by step, select this and do that in creating a 3D LUT. Realize that experts can get much more from the tool... let me know if you need any dummy testers. Thanks! SJ




Or for those of using Chromapure.


----------



## OMARDRIS

alex_t said:


> I plan during the weekend to redo a new 3DLUT from a new profile (bigger than previous one) and to take some measurements, I will report my findings here if I think they are relevant enough.


He Alexandre,
Thanks for the interim report. Since it is really exciting.

I have installed the prerelease with Intensity Mapping for two days, it runs very stable. I have done the first measurements, but am not sure if my measurement setup is correct. There you have to be very careful, that you do not measure nonsense.

My first impression is that the standard settings of the Intensity Mappings already fit very well. Lumagen has done a good job. 
I could still see too few films and very briefly, but I've already noticed that some have no correct metadata.
@All
The manual for the Lumagen Pro series is currently being revised and will include all changes, including the Intensity Mapping. This will be very helpful.

The setting of the parameters for Intensity Mapping has been solved very elegantly.
You do not have to go through the menus but the function has been placed on the left arrow key so that it is directly accessible.
Very good, of course, there is the danger that you are playing with the settings during a movie and the whole family is annoyed. 

In any case, there is a lot of development work behind Intensity Mapping. 
Peter


----------



## thrang

(posted this on the Sony 5000 thread, but thought it appropriate to post here) 


I played quite a bit yesterday with the HDR Intensity Mapping feature yesterday, and am finding so far, that despite Lumagen's recommendation to send 2020/SDR to the projector, I am getting much better results with sending 2020/HDR and modifying the settings to compensate.

I'm not in front of the projector now, but I think I'm currently at:

*Lumagen Pro:*
2020/HDR output
Max Nits 300 (according to Jim at Lumagen, when using 2020/HDR, the lower the nits setting here the better, but the brighter the image becomes - too bright at 200 for me. The lower the number, the more adjustability the Intensity controls provide)
Ratio -10
Gamma 3
Black -1


* Sony 5000:*
HDR Contrast 50-60
Black: 49
Contrast Enhancer Off
Dynamic Laser (or whatever its called): Limited
ColorSpace 2020

I think this can be tweaked further, and will be title dependent - but right now, this is providing an even more vibrant and higher apparent contrast image than the 5000's already great picture.

Note - in emails with Jim, he commented the original intention was in fact to use HDR Intensity Mapping with 2020/HDR out of the Pro. But because this enables an output device's internal HDR mapping, this was determined to potentially add more complexity and limit the features of Intensity Mapping. But every device is different, and to this point, the 2020/HDR output approach works better with the 5000 (with the right settings) than 2020/SDR out. 

One of the things I noticed is the color rendition is a bit muted when the 5000 is in 2020/SDR mode, though I will retry this mode with the expanded Colorspace 3 on the 5000 to see if that mitigates this negative.


----------



## SJHT

Is this released yet? SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

SJHT said:


> Is this released yet? SJ


No. Not for beta version. Last is FW Beta 030317.
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## BakeApples

Any ETA for the Intensity Mapping software?
Curious about PIP/POP as well.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

BakeApples said:


> Any ETA for the Intensity Mapping software?
> Curious about PIP/POP as well.


there have been a few small bugs and things that have needed to be ironed out. I think they are really close to public release..


----------



## jrp

BakeApples said:


> Any ETA for the Intensity Mapping software?
> Curious about PIP/POP as well.


As Gordon mentions, we are really close on the HDR Intensity Mapping initial public release (okay ... I have to admit we have thought that for a while now). I can say reports back from Alpha sites have gone from "Great, but ..." to just "Great." So we are close.

Of course tonight while playing with HDR Intensity Mapping I realized I should have specified one calculation differently. I think we will make the change as it "should be quick." Changing the calculation will better adjust the HDR Intensity Mapping for different source levels than what we have now.

I know people have been happy with a single calibration LUT for HDR EOTF. However, given how HDR is specified, I believe the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping can improve on the single LUT approach, and the adjustment will be automatic based on the HDR Info Frames.

===== 

PiP/PoP is high on the priority list, but not at the top. Next up is doing some improvements to the deinterlacing, then likely it is image enhancements, and perhaps after these comes PiP/PoP (444X models only as noted before).


----------



## mhafner

jrp said:


> PiP/PoP is high on the priority list, but not at the top. Next up is doing some improvements to the deinterlacing, then likely it is image enhancements, and perhaps after these comes PiP/PoP (444X models only as noted before).


A friendly reminder that genlock has been broken for JVC projectors for many months now. And it would be nice to have proper genlock back.


----------



## Mark_H

Michel,

Jim posted this a couple of weeks back:

"We have reworked the Genlock and a new version will be in the next release along with HDR Intensity Mapping. With the current Genlock there are some devices (mostly projectors) that do not work with the Genlock PLL clock "step size." The new release makes the step size much smaller and so hopefully Genlock will work well with all projectors and TVs. We ask that those who have had issues with the current Genlock to give the new Genlock a try and see if it resolves the issues."


----------



## G-Rex

With Lumagen's new HDR firmware, will the Pro strip HDR from the Panasonic 900 UHD player, leaving it with bt2020 color, without the need for a Linker or HDfury in the chain?


----------



## Wookii

G-Rex said:


> With Lumagen's new HDR firmware, will the Pro strip HDR from the Panasonic 900 UHD player, leaving it with bt2020 color, without the need for a Linker or HDfury in the chain?


Yes, it can do this already without the HDR Intensity Mapping.


----------



## G-Rex

Good to know. Thank you.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

There is new GENLOCK in the HDR tone map software....one of the reasons it may have taken slightly longer...


----------



## jrp

mhafner said:


> A friendly reminder that genlock has been broken for JVC projectors for many months now. And it would be nice to have proper genlock back.


[EDIT] After my reply here I read that several others had already responded making my post somewhat redundant. I left it here for reference.

I would say rather that some projectors do not tolerate the PLL clock step size of the current release. Something that was surprising to us since the TVs we have in the lab do just fine with it. Maybe semantic and I'm sure you don't care why and just want it to work.

As I mentioned in a previous post buried in history somewhere, the Genlock clock step size is being significantly reduced in the next release (the HDR Intensity Mapping release). We believe this will allow all TVs/projectors to work with Genlock, but need to ask for everyone's feedback to confirm this.


----------



## mhafner

jrp said:


> [EDIT]
> As I mentioned in a previous post buried in history somewhere, the Genlock clock step size is being significantly reduced in the next release (the HDR Intensity Mapping release). We believe this will allow all TVs/projectors to work with Genlock, but need to ask for everyone's feedback to confirm this.


Great. I will check this as soon as it's available.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> As Gordon mentions, we are really close on the HDR Intensity Mapping initial public release (okay ... I have to admit we have thought that for a while now). I can say reports back from Alpha sites have gone from "Great, but ..." to just "Great." So we are close.
> 
> Of course tonight while playing with HDR Intensity Mapping I realized I should have specified one calculation differently. I think we will make the change as it "should be quick." Changing the calculation will better adjust the HDR Intensity Mapping for different source levels than what we have now.
> 
> I know people have been happy with a single calibration LUT for HDR EOTF. However, given how HDR is specified, I believe the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping can improve on the single LUT approach, and the adjustment will be automatic based on the HDR Info Frames.
> 
> =====
> 
> PiP/PoP is high on the priority list, but not at the top. Next up is doing some improvements to the deinterlacing, then likely it is image enhancements, and perhaps after these comes PiP/PoP (444X models only as noted before).



Jim can you add high up on this list the coding/documentation needed for 2020/HDR auto calibration for Chrompaure? The implication from Tom is that he has been waiting on Lumagen for some time to a) add the coding/hooks in the Pro to do this and b) be provided the documentation/guidance to properly code this in CP.


Really needed...thanks


----------



## uderman

Looks like Sony ZD9 has the tone mapping defeated in the custom mode. Is this the mode to use with the Radiance Intensity mapping?


----------



## eganz1

so, will it be possible to use a 4240 to generate a LUT to calibrate a SonyA1E OLED TV for HDR?
One possibility seems to be no tone mapping in the 4240. Another is to find a mode like custom which may not tone map in the Sony.
Thanks,
E


----------



## uderman

eganz1 said:


> so, will it be possible to use a 4240 to generate a LUT to calibrate a SonyA1E OLED TV for HDR?
> One possibility seems to be no tone mapping in the 4240. Another is to find a mode like custom which may not tone map in the Sony.
> Thanks,
> E


A1E currently tone maps in custom mode as well. ZD9 initially had tone mapping enabled in custom mode but with the last firmware it is disabled. I am hoping A1E will get a similar firmware update soon.

From what I have heard, it is ideal to disable tone mapping during calibration but I would like to read a definitive answer from someone who knows more than I do.


----------



## SJHT

thrang said:


> Jim can you add high up on this list the coding/documentation needed for 2020/HDR auto calibration for Chrompaure? The implication from Tom is that he has been waiting on Lumagen for some time to a) add the coding/hooks in the Pro to do this and b) be provided the documentation/guidance to properly code this in CP.
> 
> 
> Really needed...thanks


First world problems... 😀😀


----------



## thrang

SJHT said:


> First world problems... 😀😀


Well, in the context of this forum, it's bread and water...


----------



## mikela

I just got a 50' monoprice cable and would like to test 18Gbps. I have it hooked up to an RS600. Is it possible to test it without any source material?


----------



## netroamer

mikela said:


> I just got a 50' monoprice cable and would like to test 18Gbps. I have it hooked up to an RS600. Is it possible to test it without any source material?


Only with test equipment that has HDMI in/out and would interrogate the cable at all the relevant frequencies and provide pass/fail info.


----------



## procine

Is there a command to send via rs232 to get an echo of the actual active video resolution / aspect ratio?

I want to achive some kind of feedback to a Control4-system of the video aspect ratio to set specific lens memories depending on which aspect ratio Lumagen currently receive/process. 

A lot of material is tagged as 1.78:1 with hard encoded blackbars. But the actual active image may be 1.85, 2.35, 2,40 or what ever.


----------



## procine

I got the Lumagen to auto detect the incoming AR. This works like a charm! Not a single hickup.

Can I get this AR info to output over rs232? 

In this specific case as I mentioned in my erlier post, a Control4 system is present.

The only thing I need to get is the info of AR from the Lumagen into Control4 via the RS232 protocol.

Is this possible? Can't see the feature in the current driver. But maybe there's specific commands for echo this info?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

tech tip 11 and 15 may help with this

http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals


----------



## Grifo

when are you going to release new fw with intensity mapping??
I was waiting it to calibrate my Z1....


----------



## Mark_H

The suspense is killing me!


----------



## jrp

A week ago I posted I was changing the equations for HDR Intensity Mapping. As seems typical this created some new overflow conditions. We have been running these down and fixing them. We believe we have only one overflow left to resolve, and so believe the HDR Intensity release should be Monday or Tuesday this week.

Until it passes all our tests we can't be certain, but looking good for early this week.


----------



## Chris5

Cough, it's nearly Thursday (well, here in the UK anyway)


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Hi Chris

I think jim is just waiting to get feedback from the test sites to make sure there are no more "little bugs" before letting this out in to the wild. I've been out the country so haven't been able to test this final release but i know others have so i am hopeful it's almost ready...as it's almost been ready for....well...ever....but this looks like a go-er from what i am seeing.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> A week ago I posted I was changing the equations for HDR Intensity Mapping. As seems typical this created some new overflow conditions. We have been running these down and fixing them. We believe we have only one overflow left to resolve, and so believe the HDR Intensity release should be Monday or Tuesday this week.
> 
> Until it passes all our tests we can't be certain, but looking good for early this week.





Chris5 said:


> Cough, it's nearly Thursday (well, here in the UK anyway)





Gordon Fraser said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> I think jim is just waiting to get feedback from the test sites to make sure there are no more "little bugs" before letting this out in to the wild. I've been out the country so haven't been able to test this final release but i know others have so i am hopeful it's almost ready...as it's almost been ready for....well...ever....but this looks like a go-er from what i am seeing.


This may be a stupid question, but will the new FW update improve the picture even without calibration.
I've been waiting for a calibration for FW updates for Oppo 203, Lumagen Pro as well as for ~100 hours on my projector.
Thinking about a rainy holiday weekend.

Thanks.

Mike


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Hi Mike

As you bave a PJ...yes. If you set the Pro to output SDR and take in HDR, then turn on the HDR TONE MAP you will be able to make adjustments that should give you increased image quality even before calibration of colour. imho


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> This may be a stupid question, but will the new FW update improve the picture even without calibration.
> I've been waiting for a calibration for FW updates for Oppo 203, Lumagen Pro as well as for ~100 hours on my projector.
> Thinking about a rainy holiday weekend.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike


Yes, we believe that the HDR intensity mapping improves the image even without calibration.

While the effect is much more pronounced with a SDR TV/projector it will also adjust the image for an HDR TV/projector even without calibration.


----------



## jrp

Really really close for HDR Intensity Mapping release.

Looks like we have all the overflows dealt with, and it is working very well. Not perfect yet, so we will be doing follow on releases to get the last once of performance. What remains is some fine tuning of the response curve.

I believe we will post the release today (5/25).


----------



## SJHT

Today for HDR content, I'm sending HDR2020 from my source, having the Pro output SDR2020 to my JVC projector. On my JVC RS600, I'm selecting the REC2020 color space and using a custom Gamma for HDR (the simple ones, not the Arve tool variety). I also was going to add a LUT to the mix when Gordon is done with his guide. 

What will be different in my setup with HDR Intensity Mapping available? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> Today for HDR content, I'm sending HDR2020 from my source, having the Pro output SDR2020 to my JVC projector. On my JVC RS600, I'm selecting the REC2020 color space and using a custom Gamma for HDR (the simple ones, not the Arve tool variety). I also was going to add a LUT to the mix when Gordon is done with his guide.
> 
> What will be different in my setup with HDR Intensity Mapping available? Thanks. SJ


Rather than using a custom gamma you'd use gamma 2.4 on pj and then turn on the tone map on the Pro and adjust the options on it to get the balance between light output and HDR detail you want.


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> Rather than using a custom gamma you'd use gamma 2.4 on pj and then turn on the tone map on the Pro and adjust the options on it to get the balance between light output and HDR detail you want.


Thanks, can't wait to try this! Also, would I keep REC2020 color space on my JVC and also continue to output SDR2020 from the Pro (don't want the projector to go into it's HDR Gamma D mode....). SJ


----------



## BakeApples

Some more questions related to my setup and others using the Sony VW665/675 projectors which both use an HDR contrast slider. If anyone has these pjs, please share your settings for the best results when using the Intensity mapping.

1. For HDR content, i currently strip out the HDR in the Oppo 203 player and output SDR2020 to the pj. I have set the Radiance to output only SDR2020. This is the only way i can get a bright enough image but with the new Intensity mapping software, should i instead output HDR2020 from the player and also change the output settings in the Pro to HDR2020?

2. Regarding the HDR contrast slider in the pj, where do you set this slider when used in conjunction with the Intensity mapping?

3. How should i set things up if i only want to output SDR2020 to the pj and using the Intensity mapping?

I should also mention that i have not calibrated my pj for HDR but instead i use the Cinema Film 2 mode for both SDR & HDR.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> Thanks, can't wait to try this! Also, would I keep REC2020 color space on my JVC and also continue to output SDR2020 from the Pro (don't want the projector to go into it's HDR Gamma D mode....). SJ


Yes send SDR/2020 to keep the JVC from going to gamma D. 

Depending on how much light output you have you may want to try CMS-OFF (using native colourspace of PJ with no filter) to get more light output. You don't want to try that though till you can have an SDR lut loaded to fix the colour errors you'll get.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

BakeApples said:


> Some more questions related to my setup and others using the Sony VW665/675 projectors which both use an HDR contrast slider. If anyone has these pjs, please share your settings for the best results when using the Intensity mapping.
> 
> 1. For HDR content, i currently strip out the HDR in the Oppo 203 player and output SDR2020 to the pj. I have set the Radiance to output only SDR2020. This is the only way i can get a bright enough image but with the new Intensity mapping software, should i instead output HDR2020 from the player and also change the output settings in the Pro to HDR2020?
> 
> 2. Regarding the HDR contrast slider in the pj, where do you set this slider when used in conjunction with the Intensity mapping?
> 
> 3. How should i set things up if i only want to output SDR2020 to the pj and using the Intensity mapping?
> 
> I should also mention that i have not calibrated my pj for HDR but instead i use the Cinema Film 2 mode for both SDR & HDR.


Yours is a situation that is currently being debated. I prefer to send HDR in to lumagen and use a LUT to target REC2020 GAMMA 2.4...then set CMS colourspace to SDR/REC2020. One of the other testers, who actually has a Sony PJ (i've been testing with JVC's but have done clients Sony's) finds that HDR in HDR out and tone map
on gives him best results....I know that Alex (the tester with the Sony) and Jim have been debating this. This is why i think Jim is saying that there will be further tweaks as we get a better handle on how to deal with different source/display scenarios

Gordon

that's me off line now until tomorrow i think as my ferry has just left port from Ireland en-route home and there's no wif-fi in my cabin


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 052017*

*FW Beta 052017*
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
Owners Manual: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf

*Beta 052017*
Added HDR intensity mapping to map HDR source brightness to HDR or non-HDR (aka SDR) displays. 
Lumagen's HDR intensity mapping gives control for adapting the maximum brightness from the source to the maximum brightness of the display. 
To use intensity mapping first enable a CMS for HDR intensity mapping and set the display brightness (in nits) in the menu under* Output: CMS: HDR Mapping*. 
Adjustments and optimization of how the source intensity is transformed can be made on a per input memory basis under* Input: Options: HDR Mapping*. 
Added rs232 commands ZY417 and ZY518 for these HDR settings--see Tech Tip 11 when updated or email Lumagen. 
Added option to use left arrow to bring up input HDR settings in the menu under* Other: I/O Setup: Remote Ctl*. 
Fix made for an issue with auto aspect and using different output aspects per input aspect. 
Fix a 3D output conversion issue. 
Improved accuracy of genlock. 
Includes new firmware for 18Ghz output card. 
Other small bugfixes and improvements. 
*Also see latest http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf for more details on HDR setup & calibration. *

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .

Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

Wonder what the 18Ghz output firmware is for? Mine has been very stable..... SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

I haven't downloaded new FW yet.
Looks like multiple good things.

Question:
How should you adjust (or turn off) the nit slider in Oppo UDP-203 if using the Lumagen display brightness (in nits)?


Mike


----------



## jrp

Several people saw the HDR Intensity Mapping update is now posted on our website. We are excited to finally get this out and believe it is working well. We always appreciate your comments and bug reports should you find something for us to improve.

We will also be posting a new manual on our website that includes information on the HDR Intensity Mapping and some basic information on calibration when using the HDR Intensity Mapping. It should be posted soon.

=====

The Genlock is improved and using a much higher clock to reduce the PLL step size. We do have some positive results with the new Genlock revision, but still have one (uncommon) projector that is still having issues. So we are going to increase the PLL clock again and see if we can get the projector with the issue to work. Please give this version of Genlock a try and let us know. It will still be good to know if other projectors all work with this release of Genlock.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Wonder what the 18Ghz output firmware is for? Mine has been very stable..... SJ


Mostly general improvements from the chip vendor. 

The one notable improvement is with audio output. We have had a couple people have issues with the 18 GHz audio output that the 9 GHz worked for. For one system that had issues with the old 18 GHz output chip microcode, the new microcode works for them for audio.


----------



## dlinsley

Looks like Jim and Pat can get the bbq going this weekend while the rest of us are in the dark fiddling with our Radiances


----------



## rachmat-d

What is the best Display max setting for SONY TV Z9D HDR ? 
After setting The Display Max, calibrate the 2 Point Level and Finish , or we can adjust the 21 point and 3d LUT ?


----------



## alex_t

Hello,

In your message, what I would do :



BakeApples said:


> Some more questions related to my setup and others using the Sony VW665/675 projectors which both use an HDR contrast slider. If anyone has these pjs, please share your settings for the best results when using the Intensity mapping.
> 
> Note: I don't have the Sony anymore (I got it for a review), I own a JVC X35 which not HDR at all.
> 
> 1. For HDR content, i currently strip out the HDR in the Oppo 203 player and output SDR2020 to the pj. I have set the Radiance to output only SDR2020. This is the only way i can get a bright enough image but with the new Intensity mapping software, should i instead output HDR2020 from the player and also change the output settings in the Pro to HDR2020?
> 
> It is really important to set the source with the minimum of its internal processing engaged. The source needs to output HDR/REC2020. If source direct works with HDR title you should use this way.
> 
> As your Sony is HDR you can try both ways in Radiance, I mean HDR in / HDR out and HDR in/ SDR out. I recommand to use HDR in / SDR out because HDR intensity mapping will be more efficient than the HDR slider in Sony and this setup allows to deactivate HDR processing in the Sony (so no more question about how to set up the hdr slider of Sony)
> 
> 2. Regarding the HDR contrast slider in the pj, where do you set this slider when used in conjunction with the Intensity mapping?
> 
> See my answer above, I suggest you to use HDR in / SDR out.
> 
> 3. How should i set things up if i only want to output SDR2020 to the pj and using the Intensity mapping?
> 
> In CMS :
> ---- SDR/2020
> ---- HDR intensity mapping at ON
> ---- max light display : by sight, till you get a balanced picture (I think 500 nits should be a good starting point)
> ---- gamma into 3DLUT at AUTO
> 
> Then exit Radiance menu, press left arrow key and play with HDR intensity mapping settings.
> 
> I should also mention that i have not calibrated my pj for HDR but instead i use the Cinema Film 2 mode for both SDR & HDR.
> 
> As the Sony as a good gamut mapping, you should get a consistent picture for HDR title with the setup above.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Lumagen has uploaded a newer version of RadiancePro 42xx/44xx Manual, you can download it from here: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


----------



## BakeApples

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> In your message, what I would do :


Thanks alex for the tips! I appreciate it.


----------



## alex_t

BakeApples said:


> Thanks alex for the tips! I appreciate it.


You are welcome. Let me know how it works for you.

Another thing : for the 1st try, it is better to get from the Sony its maximum light (by memory you can set this in Sony in black pro sub-menu for adjusting output light).

But you should remark by testing that hdr intensity mapping remains efficient whatever the Sony can output as light (nits).

My JVC X35 can do only 35 nits with my very large screen and I get a very very good picture with HDR intensity mapping.

I think it is one the most cool advantage of hdr intensity mapping because 100 nits in video projection when the room is very dark can be very tiring. With hdr intensity mapping you can use more conventional light (nits) for video projection, I mean something in between 50-60 nits.

Alexandre


----------



## Wookii

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Lumagen has uploaded a newer version of RadiancePro 42xx/44xx Manual, you can download it from here: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


Your links not working properly for me Ted, it takes me to the Apr 2016 version of the manual.

I think this is the right link:

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Wookii said:


> Your links not working properly for me Ted, it takes me to the Apr 2016 version of the manual.
> 
> I think this is the right link:
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


Thanks for noticed this, I have just fixed the link to my post.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mike_WI said:


> I haven't downloaded new FW yet.
> Looks like multiple good things.
> 
> Question:
> How should you adjust (or turn off) the nit slider in Oppo UDP-203 if using the Lumagen display brightness (in nits)?
> 
> 
> Mike



I'd have thought a NIT slider would only be used if the Oppo was doing HDR to SDR conversion internally. I dont have an Oppo here anymore so cant' check. However you want to send all the content on the disc to the Pro unaltered so it has most info to work with. So whatever optiondoes that. Remember though you want HDR out of player to scaler


----------



## Mike_WI

*Display Max Light*



Gordon Fraser said:


> I'd have thought a NIT slider would only be used if the Oppo was doing HDR to SDR conversion internally. I dont have an Oppo here anymore so cant' check. However you want to send all the content on the disc to the Pro unaltered so it has most info to work with. So whatever optiondoes that. Remember though you want HDR out of player to scaler


Thanks.
I wondered if the nit slider in the Oppo UDP-203 would make a relative change or a discrete change to the data output to the Lumagen Pro.
If it was a discrete change, then the Pro would detect that and not change again.
But it sounds like (?) If the Oppo nit slider is used and the Pro that the nits may be adjusted twice.
Hope to download this weekend and play with.

Mike

Edit.
From manual: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


> The *Display Max Light* is set in this CMS menu. You can increase or decrease the *Display Max Light* using the
> arrow keys in 100 nit steps or use the number keys to enter a value from 30 to 9990 nits. Changing the *Display
> Max Light *adjusts the source to display light ratio, and is similar to changing the “multiple” used to compensate
> for screen size in calibration software.


----------



## Mark_H

Had a quick play with the HDR Intensity Mapping.

Setting the Display Max Light to 50 nits, which is roughly where my projector is at, gives a very washed out image, and the further control options do very little to improve it.

However, if I set the Max Light around 4000-5000 nits I get a lovely bright, colourful image and then the various sliders do make some further adjustments, but the default settings seem to work just as well. Compared to the UB900's output the Lumagen seems a big improvement (although further viewing needed).

So, I *could* just leave it at 5000, but no idea if it's correct or anywhere near optimal. Anybody offer a set of steps for getting going with the HDR mapping on a projector with limited output?

Would be really nice to get some standard images with which to calibrate the various settings.


----------



## Mark_H

Was there an option with the HDR mapping to show which regions are clipped? Couldn't see the option in the menus...?


----------



## Wookii

This is fantastic work Jim, you guys do an amazing job keeping your products at the cutting edge.

So then, I'm reading the manual and trying to get my head around everything, and understand how the parameters work, so:

*Display Max Light* - is this the actual measured peak luminance output of the projector, measured off the screen, in nits?

*Ratio* - so this is the ratio of input brightness to output brightness, but how do the -15 to 15 settings translate, are they literally the ratio to 1. So if I want a 6:1 ratio, I select '6'? If so, I assume zero is 1:1 and any negative setting is SDR2020, the second option includes running a 3D LUT with a tone mapping curve in place generated by the software (I assume this is a la Lightspace as has been posted in this thread previously). Presumably under this case, HDR Intensity Mapping is no longer required, as the Pro is already calibrated to a correct tone mapping curve?


Finally, in terms of a workflow, for HDR2020 - -> SDR2020 on a HDR capable projector, would it be the following:

1. Adjusted display brightness to lowest possible black floor.
2. Set black level as per manual (section 9)
3. Run a 3D LUT for Rec2020 with BT1886
4. Turn on HDR Intensity Mapping, and enter the display peakY in nits.
5. Adjust the other parameters - presumably by eye? is there any guidance, or suggested techniques for optimising any of the parameters by formula, by measurement, or by reference to a test pattern?

EDIT: on the above workflow, I've just seen the manual section that recommends increasing the display gamma to its highest possible level prior to calibration (around 3 to 4 is mentioned in the manual) - presumably instead of a standard 2.2-2.4. I have read this section several times, and I still don't fully understand how having such a drastic gamma setting in the display helps? Will this not mean that the 3D LUT has to make much larger error adjustments to reach BT1886?


----------



## LJG

Mark_H said:


> Had a quick play with the HDR Intensity Mapping.
> 
> Setting the Display Max Light to 50 nits, which is roughly where my projector is at, gives a very washed out image, and the further control options do very little to improve it.
> 
> However, if I set the Max Light around 4000-5000 nits I get a lovely bright, colourful image and then the various sliders do make some further adjustments, but the default settings seem to work just as well. Compared to the UB900's output the Lumagen seems a big improvement (although further viewing needed).
> 
> So, I *could* just leave it at 5000, but no idea if it's correct or anywhere near optimal. Anybody offer a set of steps for getting going with the HDR mapping on a projector with limited output?
> 
> Would be really nice to get some standard images with which to calibrate the various settings.


If you are doing HDR in HDR out you need to set the display light to what your display is expecting say 4000-6000. The much better way is to send HDR in SDR out with intensity mapping and then set the display maximum light to between 100-300 depending on projector. We got remarkable results doing this as it by passes the internal HDR mapping of my Sony 5000ES. Absolutely fantastic results


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi,
A note for all those who have entered the CMS-Colorspace "SDR709" or "SDR2020" and want to compare the results of the Intensity Mapping with a 1d / 3D-LUT from LightSpace, for example.
In the case of a CMS memory, the intensity mapping can also be switched off completely.
Two entries are necessary in the HDR mapping menu:
1. HDR Mapping = OFF
2. Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR
In this case, the EOTF calculated by LightSpace is retained. 
Peter


PS: And click on "OK" at the Radiance when an Ultra Blu-ray is running - there is a new info window


----------



## Mark_H

LJG said:


> If you are doing HDR in HDR out you need to set the display light to what your display is expecting say 4000-6000. The much better way is to send HDR in SDR out with intensity mapping and then set the display maximum light to between 100-300 depending on projector. We got remarkable results doing this as it by passes the internal HDR mapping of my Sony 5000ES. Absolutely fantastic results


Thanks. That makes sense. I see similar is mentioned later in the Lumagen manual, but I was too excited to read that far 

More experiments over the weekend.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

yes with hdr in to processor and sdr out (with or without lut) you want to set DISP MAX in the tone map setting on Pro by trying some values to see what gives you the balance you need.


----------



## Mark_H

Messing about with HDR mapping; an observation...

If you go into Test Patterns->Adjustable and bring up the black pluge pattern, then go into the menu again and navigate to Input->Options->HDR Mapping you can bring up the HDR mapping adjustment bar overlay and then adjust to see how they affect the black levels and ensure you don't crush blacks.

If you flip the ON/OFF status of the mapping you can also see how the pluge looks without mapping and then adjust parameters to best replicate the low blacks.


----------



## Mark_H

Spent the morning with the HDR mapping on my projector (Z1), concentrating on SDR/Rec709 output, as that's what I currently have calibrated via 3D LUT.

Off my screen I get about 44nits. After experimenting using MEMA/MEMB to flip between different mappings I settled on a master NIT level of 150 (roughly 3x my actual). This seems to give the best balance between shadows and highlights. I then tweaked the various other settings to taste and have ended up with a very nice HDR mapped image indeed. 

Other settings:

Ratio: 0, Shape: 3, Clip: 3 (may drop to zero though), Tran: 7, Gamma: 3, Black: 0

Next up is watching an actual film, and then it's experimenting with SDR/2020 output...

Very impressive stuff and well worth the wait. Kudos Lumagen!


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> Rather than using a custom gamma you'd use gamma 2.4 on pj and then turn on the tone map on the Pro and adjust the options on it to get the balance between light output and HDR detail you want.


How does this compare to raising the Gamma per Jims instructions? Thanks. SJ

Just for a quick test, I turned Gamma to 2.6 using REC2020 color space on my JVC HDR2020 in to the Pro and SDR2020 output. HDR Intensity On, max brightness at 500, Gamma into 3D LUT Auto. Great looking picture. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> How does this compare to raising the Gamma per Jims instructions? Thanks. SJ
> 
> Just for a quick test, I turned Gamma to 2.6 using REC2020 color space on my JVC HDR2020 in to the Pro and SDR2020 output. HDR Intensity On, max brightness at 500, Gamma into 3D LUT Auto. Great looking picture. SJ


Lots of things to comment on, but this one is quick.

My comment in the manual about a higher Gamma in the TV/Projector was to describe a pre-set before calibrating. The intent is the projector/TV has a higher Gamma that is mapped back to 2.2 by the calibration of the 3D/1D LUT in the Pro. With the higher Gamma between the Pro and TV/projector, it *may* give lower noise near black. Not a big issue whether you do this or not as long as you are using 4:2:2 12-bit output from the Pro.

One thing to be aware of: I have heard from calibrators that the 10 point 1D LUTs in the TVs often do not work correctly and can cause color or contouring errors. So if you use the 1D LUT in the TV/projector to increase the Gamma as suggested above, make sure to check the results for issues before doing the Pro calibration.


----------



## jrp

As you might expect I have been on the phone a lot with calibrators over the past two days discussing the new HDR Intensity Mapping feature. One question that has been coming up is what settings I like for HDR Intensity Mapping.

I use the new Magnificent 7 at 16:00 to adjust the settings initially as it has very dark areas, but also has bright trees showing through the Saloon door. With Colorspace = SDR2020, Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR, and Display Max Light at about 400 for my 70 inch Vizio TV (circa 2016) here is what I generally set for HDR parameters:

Ratio = 0: Since I use the Display Max Light as a coarse "brightness" for the first image I adjust to, I can leave the Ratio at 0 (i.e. no change to Display Max Light).

Shape = 2, Transition = 5: I find increasing the nit-for-nit range gives better results. Reducing Shape and Increasing Transition, does this.

Clip = 0: before I was at 3 for Clip, but I noticed that the muzzle flash at 38:13 in Mad Max Fury Road, and sunbursts in several movies are affected by raising Clip to 3. So I settled on no clipping and we actually changed the default CLip value from 3 to 0 because of this. On the flip side I find if I set the Clip to 3, there are few affected scenes and the effect of Clip =3 is minimal, the Sunbursts and the muzzle flash scenes still look excellent, and the mid intensities do more closely match the source intent.

Gamma = 2: If you are someone who calibrates SDR for 2.4 Gamma (like me), you may also like this higher Gamma setting. On the other hand if you complain the darker areas are "too-dark" you may like this set to a negative number to reduce the resulting Gamma and brighten the dark areas of the image.

Black = 0: You need to set black using the Radiance Pro Contrast2 pattern as I described in the manual. If you do that then generally the HDR Mapping Black can be set to 0. If you find a HDR movie "pops" a little more by making the HDR Mapping Black negative by a few clicks, that can be a reasonable option.


----------



## Mark_H

Watched my first UHD film this morning on projector with HDR intensity mapping. HDR mapping was flawless and the image was outstanding. Fantastic stuff. Got a backlog of UHD titles waiting for this update. Let the film festival begin!


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Lots of things to comment on, but this one is quick.
> 
> My comment in the manual about a higher Gamma in the TV/Projector was to describe a pre-set before calibrating. The intent is the projector/TV has a higher Gamma that is mapped back to 2.2 by the calibration of the 3D/1D LUT in the Pro. With the higher Gamma between the Pro and TV/projector, it *may* give lower noise near black. Not a big issue whether you do this or not as long as you are using 4:2:2 12-bit output from the Pro.
> 
> One thing to be aware of: I have heard from calibrators that the 10 point 1D LUTs in the TVs often do not work correctly and can cause color or contouring errors. So if you use the 1D LUT in the TV/projector to increase the Gamma as suggested above, make sure to check the results for issues before doing the Pro calibration.


Thanks Jim. Hopefully Gordon's guide (for Lightspace CMS) will include this...


----------



## dlinsley

I've not had time to play yet, but is it possible to map brightness for an SDR source to the same as for the "SDR portion" of an HDR source? For example, if I have 100 nits total output and have the nit-to-nit in HDR set to 50 before transitioning, can I set an SDR source to scale down to 50 nits instead of 100? I'd be using SDR2020 output for all sources.

Just wondering if I still need to use two projector modes, one for the iris closed for SDR and fully open for HDR, or if I can just move to open. It's easier for the family without needing to do anything, but if not I have been planning to automate it via reading the RS232 output. One day, along with everything else ;-)


----------



## sillysally

Yes HDR2020 in, SDR2020 out works well with Lightspace cLUT. As it did before the Mapping update. 
However HDR2020 in and HDR2020 out look very bad using a LightSpace cLUT, as It did before the update.
That is if you make a ST2084/2020 cLUT when my EF9500 OLED is in HDR2020 mode.

The thing that troubles me is that even if you don't use a cLUT and just or don't use the 21 point grayscale settings in the Pro 444x, have the Pro set to input output ST2084/2020 the picture on my EF9500 is still very poor.

The one thing I haven't tried is using Calman to make a HDR2020 cLUT, That I will do tonight probably, but I expect the outcome to be very poor also.

If I take the Pro out of the loop, and run the source player (Oppo 203) directly to my EF9500 OLED. The contour and banding issues are gone.

ss


----------



## sillysally

sillysally said:


> Yes HDR2020 in, SDR2020 out works well with Lightspace cLUT. As it did before the Mapping update.
> However HDR2020 in and HDR2020 out look very bad using a LightSpace cLUT, as It did before the update.
> That is if you make a ST2084/2020 cLUT when my EF9500 OLED is in HDR2020 mode.
> 
> The thing that troubles me is that even if you don't use a cLUT and just or don't use the 21 point grayscale settings in the Pro 444x, have the Pro set to input output ST2084/2020 the picture on my EF9500 is still very poor.
> 
> The one thing I haven't tried is using Calman to make a HDR2020 cLUT, That I will do tonight probably, but I expect the outcome to be very poor also.
> 
> If I take the Pro out of the loop, and run the source player (Oppo 203) directly to my EF9500 OLED. The contour and banding issues are gone.
> 
> ss


If I use P3/2020 when making a cLUT with LightSpace, and adjust the Light my EF9500 is expecting (around 3000 nits) then the PQ as far as the Pro 444x is doing, is a nice improvement. 

Nice job Jim.

ss


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi,
Another note to anyone who has a *NON-HDR-BT2020* display, for example Sony VW500ES or VW1100ES and LightSpace for creating a 1D/3D-LUT for HDR/BT2020. If one wants to use the Intensity Mapping with these devices, one should not choose the colorspace "ST2084_REC2020" as "source" when creating the LUT. The intensity mapping is not compatible with the ST2084-EOTF created by LightSpace. Brightness and colors are distorted. It is better to take a BT2020 Colorspace as a "source", which has a linear gamma curve. The "UHD REC2020" color space is a good example. Then the intensity mapping works very well.
Peter


----------



## giftedmd

jrp said:


> As you might expect I have been on the phone a lot with calibrators over the past two days discussing the new HDR Intensity Mapping feature. One question that has been coming up is what settings I like for HDR Intensity Mapping.
> 
> I use the new Magnificent 7 at 16:00 to adjust the settings initially as it has very dark areas, but also has bright trees showing through the Saloon door. With Colorspace = SDR2020, Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR, and Display Max Light at about 400 for my 70 inch Vizio TV (circa 2016) here is what I generally set for HDR parameters:
> 
> Ratio = 0: Since I use the Display Max Light as a coarse "brightness" for the first image I adjust to, I can leave the Ratio at 0 (i.e. no change to Display Max Light).
> 
> Shape = 2, Transition = 5: I find increasing the nit-for-nit range gives better results. Reducing Shape and Increasing Transition, does this.
> 
> Clip = 0: before I was at 3 for Clip, but I noticed that the muzzle flash at 38:13 in Mad Max Fury Road, and sunbursts in several movies are affected by raising Clip to 3. So I settled on no clipping and we actually changed the default CLip value from 3 to 0 because of this. On the flip side I find if I set the Clip to 3, there are few affected scenes and the effect of Clip =3 is minimal, the Sunbursts and the muzzle flash scenes still look excellent, and the mid intensities do more closely match the source intent.
> 
> Gamma = 2: If you are someone who calibrates SDR for 2.4 Gamma (like me), you may also like this higher Gamma setting. On the other hand if you complain the darker areas are "too-dark" you may like this set to a negative number to reduce the resulting Gamma and brighten the dark areas of the image.
> 
> Black = 0: You need to set black using the Radiance Pro Contrast2 pattern as I described in the manual. If you do that then generally the HDR Mapping Black can be set to 0. If you find a HDR movie "pops" a little more by making the HDR Mapping Black negative by a few clicks, that can be a reasonable option.


Wow! Thanks so much. I didn't know HDR on a projector could look this good before! Projectors struggle to get a bright image that still has a lot of punch and contrast. My results with lightspace were pretty good before, sending SDR2020, but overall a little too dim in most movies. This tone mapping feature along with your settings as a starting point provides the right tonal balance. I went back and forth through about 6 or 7 of my UHD movies that I know we'll on my Panasonic ub900 to dial things in and results are amazing! Interestingly, before using tone mapping I thought gamma D still looked the best on my JVC. Now gamma D looks like crap and gamma B looks best. All other gamma settings looked too washed out. I guess I should calibrate again in gamma B since I calibrated in gamma D before but I am loving the image right now, can't see how it could get much better. Makes me want to watch all my UHD movies all over again! 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## BakeApples

I did some quick testing this afternoon for the first time since installing the Intensity Mapping software. First, i assured that my Oppo player was outputting HDR2020 which up until now has not worked at all in my setup, the image was always too dark and i had to use the strip metadata instead but even then, i was never really fully satisfied with the image.
After doing this, i followed the advice from alex and set the Radiance to HDR in/SDR out and then enabled the Intensity Mapping and used the deafult max light value of 500.
In my Sony VW675, i use the Cinema Film 2 mode and the signal format set to enhanced. Lamp mode at high and contrast enhancer set to max.

My test disc was the The Revenant and for the first time, i can now enjoy the image outputted from the Oppo. Like i said, i havn`t changed any of the values in the Radiance but the image is still so good! I am really impressed with how good it looks and i am sure i can improve it even further by tweaking the settings for the Intensity Mapping.

A big thanks to Jim and Lumagen for making this possible!


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## BrolicBeast

HDR INTENSITY MAPPING.....OMG. Unbelievable...HDR to SDR2020 out. Check this out from The Martian: https://www.instagram.com/p/BU0ZQEEAgx0/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## jrp

Wookii said:


> This is fantastic work Jim, you guys do an amazing job keeping your products at the cutting edge.
> 
> So then, I'm reading the manual and trying to get my head around everything, and understand how the parameters work, so:
> 
> *Display Max Light* - is this the actual measured peak luminance output of the projector, measured off the screen, in nits?
> 
> *Ratio* - so this is the ratio of input brightness to output brightness, but how do the -15 to 15 settings translate, are they literally the ratio to 1. So if I want a 6:1 ratio, I select '6'? If so, I assume zero is 1:1 and any negative setting is SDR2020, the second option includes running a 3D LUT with a tone mapping curve in place generated by the software (I assume this is a la Lightspace as has been posted in this thread previously). Presumably under this case, HDR Intensity Mapping is no longer required, as the Pro is already calibrated to a correct tone mapping curve?
> 
> 
> Finally, in terms of a workflow, for HDR2020 - -> SDR2020 on a HDR capable projector, would it be the following:
> 
> 1. Adjusted display brightness to lowest possible black floor.
> 2. Set black level as per manual (section 9)
> 3. Run a 3D LUT for Rec2020 with BT1886
> 4. Turn on HDR Intensity Mapping, and enter the display peakY in nits.
> 5. Adjust the other parameters - presumably by eye? is there any guidance, or suggested techniques for optimising any of the parameters by formula, by measurement, or by reference to a test pattern?
> 
> EDIT: on the above workflow, I've just seen the manual section that recommends increasing the display gamma to its highest possible level prior to calibration (around 3 to 4 is mentioned in the manual) - presumably instead of a standard 2.2-2.4. I have read this section several times, and I still don't fully understand how having such a drastic gamma setting in the display helps? Will this not mean that the 3D LUT has to make much larger error adjustments to reach BT1886?


Here are some responses. Sorry it took me a while to work my way back around to your questions. Also I see some have been answered, but I will comment here as well.

*Display Max Light: * For HDR in to SDR out, it is approximately the display Max Nit output. However, there is a multiplier for the screen size similar to the cosmological constant. That is a fudge factor to account for screen size. For HDR out, the Display Max Light is what the TV/projector is expecting. This is really 10000 nits for HDR10. However, if you turn down the “HDR slider” on the projector/TV, assuming there is one and assuming it works similar to the Sony 5000’s, you can drop the Display Max for HDR output down some. Note though that even if Display Max Light = 5000 nits is not too bright a setting, this only leaves a 2:1 ratio for HDR Intensity Mapping to work with and given roll off is needed you really can’t see much effect. So we are working on ways to do a 3D LUT that assumes a HDR EOTF but a maximum level of something more in the 1000 nit range to get a 10:1 ratio for the HDR Intensity Mapping to work with.

*Ratio:* This changes the ratio of max range (10000 nits) divided by Display Max Light. This is going to become more useful with the next release as I will explain in the next paragraph. For the first movie are adjusting HDR Intensity Mapping to, Ratio should typically be 0. It would then be used to account for source variations.

In the next release there will be two sets of HDR Intensity Mapping parameters. One set for a Source Max Mastering Level less than 2000 nits, and another for >=2000 nits. Since movies today are 1000, 1100, or 4000 nits, we thought 2000 a good break point. What we and a number of HDR Intensity Mapping users are seeing is that to get the movies dialed in, you want different settings for 1000 (and 1100) nit sources than you need to 4000 nit sources. This makes sense if you think about portions of the image above the “nit for nit” range but below “Sunbust.” A 1000 nit move maps all of these in the range up to 1000, and a 4000 nit movie can expand these into the range up to 4000. In the nit for nit range object should be similar for a 1000 nit and a 4000 nit Source Max. Sunbursts are going to be at the brightest possible level and so will translate to the brightest possible output. However, objects in the in between brightness range will not be translated the same for a 1000 nit movie and a 4000 nit movie (also true if you have one 3D LUT for HDR to SDR EOTF mapping). Having two sets of parameters allows you to dial in 1000 (and 1100) nit sources and independently dial in 4000 nit sources and have the Radiance automatically select the correct set of parameters based on the Source Max Level in the HDR Info Frame.

*Transition:* This is relative to the starting point of the roll off. The roll off starts at a lower intensity for lower settings. I find a higher number (5 or maybe 6) best to increase the nit-for-nit range.

*Shape:* This controls the roll-off shape. A small number gives a sharper curve and allows more nit-for-nit range. A large number gives a slower roll off but to achieve this reduces the nit-for-nit range. I prefer the smaller curve and larger nit-for-nit range and so set Shape = 2.

*Clip:* Since a 4000 nit source will not have pixels much above 4000 nits, we start the clip point at a point slightly higher than the Source Max Level. For example the Muzzle Flash in Mad Max Fury Road at 38:13 has a couple pixels in the 4400 nit range. So we set it so these get through. However a 1000 nit movie should not have pixels much above 1000 nits. So we set the clip point for these somewhat above 1000 nits. By setting the clip a little higher than the Source Max, the source pixel can be closer to what they should be given the Display Max Level of the TV/projector. For a 4000 nit source, Clip = 0 is essentially no clipping and a Clip = 7 starts clipping around 1800 nit and for a 1000 nit source Clip = 7 starts clipping around 650 nits.

Sorry, we will not be publishing the HDR mapping curves.

*Question A): * We started with an internal adjustment for Source Max Min of 0.005. However, we came to the conclusion that black is black and as with other parameters this is informational on what the master monitor can do and does not change black level in the encoding. We were told by several people to subtract more for a 0.005 source, but we no longer think this is correct. We are still looking into this and if it like we should subtract something from the 0.005 nit min source as can add this later.

*Question B): * We use the Source Maximum Mastering Level only (and took out the Source min as mentioned in the previous paragraph).

*Question C): * With Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR and Colorspace output = SDR, the 3D LUT is doing the EOTF translation for what I like to call “putting the HDR into a SDR container.” Depending on how this is done (we are still working on this topic), you can still set the Display Max Light lower than the 10000 nits you would expect have done this. You still want HDR Intensity mapping, but if you set Display Max to 10000 there is nothing it can do (although I am considering some algorithm changes for this case). If you can calibrate so that the EOTF conversion is assuming a say 2000 to 400 nit source instead of a 10000 nit source, than that leaves some room for HDR Intensity Mapping to do its thing since you can then set the Display Max to maybe in the range of 1000 to 2000 and not have a too bright image. This is a work in progress and why we recommend Gamma to 3D LUT as SDR and Colorspace out = SDR since that gives the HDR Intensity Mapping enough room to work with.

Your workflow seems reasonable. I would add a 4.5 of checking black level. For setting parameters, I suggest real material with a scene that has both very dark and bright objects. I like the new Magnificent 7 at 16:00. Then, for the next release, find a similar scene from a 1000 nit move to set the parameters with. Note for the 1000 nit source since Display Max Light is the same you will probably use Ratio to adjust the slope in the nit-for-nit range to some degree. So far I do not have a good description of how to choose among all the possible parameters combinations. I keep Shape at around 2, Tran at around 5, Clip at 0. Then I play with adjusting the Gamma and Black controls. Once I have reasonable settings for each dialed in I run each control to min and max then set back to the desired value, one at a time. This is to get a better feel for what the control does to the image.

On increasing the Display Gamma and then still calibrating for Bt.1886: This is purely to give more of the HDMI recommended 4:2:2 12-bits to the black region. This is the same reasoning as HDR Bt.2084 Gamma. The end game is image input to image output. It does not matter what the Gamma is in the middle – other than implementation details to achieve the best image with lowest noise floor. That is all my suggestion entails. As Bt.2084 changes the Gamma for more precision near black, my suggestions changes the HDMI interface Gamma to improve the precision near black of the HDMI interface. As mentioned whether this helps or not depends on the internal design in the TV/Projector. Note that the change of Gamma does not tax the 1D LUT in the Pro so much as the 1D LUT in the TV/projector. The simple approach is to choose the highest preset Gamma in the TV/projector and call it good. We have heard a lot of TVs/projectors with multi-point 1D LUTs will mess up the picture if they are used. So just selecting the largest Gamma preset is a good way to go.


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## jrp

dlinsley said:


> I've not had time to play yet, but is it possible to map brightness for an SDR source to the same as for the "SDR portion" of an HDR source? For example, if I have 100 nits total output and have the nit-to-nit in HDR set to 50 before transitioning, can I set an SDR source to scale down to 50 nits instead of 100? I'd be using SDR2020 output for all sources.
> 
> Just wondering if I still need to use two projector modes, one for the iris closed for SDR and fully open for HDR, or if I can just move to open. It's easier for the family without needing to do anything, but if not I have been planning to automate it via reading the RS232 output. One day, along with everything else ;-)


You can use a single projector mode for both SDR and HDR. I would select both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace as SDR2020. Do a measurement profile. Then generate a SDR709 3D/1D LUT for CMS0 and a SDR2020 LUT for CMS1. Follow the instructions in the manual for the other aspects.

You can then select a different CMS or CMS's for your projector mode, perhaps with a higher lamp output. Then you do the calibration for this new CMS and projector mode. Use a second Memory for this mode when you are watching.


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## BrolicBeast

This HDR Intensity Mapping is absolutely the real deal. I tried two titles last night--The Martian and The Revenant. I'm less familiar with the latter, but am intimately familiar with the former. I used Jim's settings with the 500 nit default for my projector (raising it 600 or higher darkened the picture too much, but keep in mind my screen is 12' wide, and I'm pushing the limits of my JVC RS520). As you can hopefully make out in the video I linked to above, the quality of HDR through Lumagen's HDR-IM is very high. The fact that the sun came through that bright on a camera phone should speak volumes....it's very, very bright.

Currently running "HDR2020-in-SDR2020-out" for the first time (I have been doing native HDR in BT2020 since replacing my RS500 with an RS520).

Jim, and the rest of Team Lumagen...thank you for giving us this gift.










EDIT: YouTube Video of HDR Intensity Mapping at work.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Soulnight

Does the new hdr mapping from the lumagen analyse each frame for maximum luminance, and then strech it back to optimum?
Just like Madvr can do? 

It would then be the same or equivalent of dolby vision or hdr10+ implementation.


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## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 052817*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


*Beta 052817*
Improved input HDR intensity mapping setup to have 2 groups of settings to allow for handling differences due to HDR Source Max light levels. 
The 2 groups of settings are visible under *Input: Options: HDR Mapping*. 
Improved *Output: CMS: HDR Mapping* so adjustments can be viewed while making them. 
Increased precision and speed of Output black adjust (in menu under *Output: CMS: Black*).
Now allowing unused/unpopulated physical inputs to be used as virtual inputs up to input 8. 
Other small fixes and improvements. 
*Also see latest for more details on HDR setup & calibration. *

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## Mike_WI

^^^
What are virtual inputs used for?


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## BrolicBeast

Mike_WI said:


> ^^^
> What are virtual inputs used for?


If you use another device as your video source switcher (say a pre pro) going into your Lumagen, you can have a different set of settings for each input on your pre pro. So, if you have a uhd player on pre pro input 1, Xbox on pre pro input 2, ps4 on pre pro input 3...the lumagen will switch settings as the pre pro switches inputs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## Mike_WI

BrolicBeast said:


> If you use another device as your video source switcher (say a pre pro) going into your Lumagen, you can have a different set of settings for each input on your pre pro. So, if you have a uhd player on pre pro input 1, Xbox on pre pro input 2, ps4 on pre pro input 3...the lumagen will switch settings as the pre pro switches inputs.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Thanks


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## jaychatbonneau

BrolicBeast said:


> This HDR Intensity Mapping is absolutely the real deal. I tried two titles last night--The Martian and The Revenant. I'm less familiar with the latter, but am intimately familiar with the former. I used Jim's settings with the 500 nit default for my projector (raising it 600 or higher darkened the picture too much, but keep in mind my screen is 12' wide, and I'm pushing the limits of my JVC RS520). As you can hopefully make out in the video I linked to above, the quality of HDR through Lumagen's HDR-IM is very high. The fact that the sun came through that bright on a camera phone should speak volumes....it's very, very bright.
> 
> Currently running "HDR2020-in-SDR2020-out" for the first time (I have been doing native HDR in BT2020 since replacing my RS500 with an RS520).
> 
> 
> Jim, and the rest of Team Lumagen...thank you for giving us this gift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: YouTube Video of HDR Intensity Mapping at work.
> 
> https://youtu.be/LgeBq6mU7D4
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Do you have a toroid screen? Acoustically transparent? I love the look of your room. 

Also why do you choose to use to the non-linear stretch instead of masking?


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## BrolicBeast

jaychatbonneau said:


> Do you have a toroid screen? Acoustically transparent? I love the look of your room.
> 
> 
> 
> Also why do you choose to use to the non-linear stretch instead of masking?




Greetings, and thanks for the kind words! This is an acoustically transparent screen--the Seymour Centerstage XD screen, 144" wide 16:9.

The screen is as large as it can get with any aspect ratio...there's a 1/2 inch above the screen border, and 2 inches below. Masking would only result in a small screen size, AND...with 4k blu ray, the picture remains razor sharp with the NLS. Blu Rays still look fantastic.

Edit: Also, I've managed to push past the "director's intent" constraint that has plagued me for the last decade. I now go for what is truly enjoyable, and everything full-screen is very, very enjoyable! For instance--the 4k UHD Blu Ray of Passengers, at the reactor scene....unbelievable with HDR Intensity Mapping engaged in full 16:9 NLS. Truly a theatrical experience. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## jaychatbonneau

BrolicBeast said:


> Greetings, and thanks for the kind words! This is an acoustically transparent screen--the Seymour Centerstage XD screen, 144" wide 16:9.
> 
> The screen is as large as it can get with any aspect ratio...there's a 1/2 inch above the screen border, and 2 inches below. Masking would only result in a small screen size, AND...with 4k blu ray, the picture remains razor sharp with the NLS. Blu Rays still look fantastic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


How much texture do see on the screen? How far away is the main viewing position? I keep thinking about getting an AT screen but I fear the texture. 

FYI Seymour does magnetic acoustically transparent masking panels and they work really well.


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## BrolicBeast

jaychatbonneau said:


> How much texture do see on the screen? How far away is the main viewing position? I keep thinking about getting an AT screen but I fear the texture.
> 
> FYI Seymour does magnetic acoustically transparent masking panels and they work really well.


I have Seymour's magnetic masking panels sitting in the next room, still in bubble wrap! Lol...never opened them. 

I see absolutely zero screen texture...front row is 13 ft away...rear row is 21 ft away.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

BrolicBeast said:


> Greetings, and thanks for the kind words! This is an acoustically transparent screen--the Seymour Centerstage XD screen, 144" wide 16:9.
> 
> The screen is as large as it can get with any aspect ratio...there's a 1/2 inch above the screen border, and 2 inches below. Masking would only result in a small screen size, AND...with 4k blu ray, the picture remains razor sharp with the NLS. Blu Rays still look fantastic.
> 
> Edit: Also, I've managed to push past the "director's intent" constraint that has plagued me for the last decade. I now go for what is truly enjoyable, and everything full-screen is very, very enjoyable! For instance--the 4k UHD Blu Ray of Passengers, at the reactor scene....unbelievable with HDR Intensity Mapping engaged in full 16:9 NLS. Truly a theatrical experience.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


What specifically are you using to display 2.35 content on your 16:9 screen? Thanks. SJ


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## BrolicBeast

SJHT said:


> What specifically are you using to display 2.35 content on your 16:9 screen? Thanks. SJ


On the Lumagen remote, the button that says 2:35 on it will expand a 2:35 image to fit a 16:9 screen. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## G-Rex

BrolicBeast said:


> If you use another device as your video source switcher (say a pre pro) going into your Lumagen, you can have a different set of settings for each input on your pre pro. So, if you have a uhd player on pre pro input 1, Xbox on pre pro input 2, ps4 on pre pro input 3...the lumagen will switch settings as the pre pro switches inputs.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


So now with addition of the Viirtual Inputs feature on the Radiance Pro, we can place it after our theater Pre Pro (MX160) and not lose any customizable functionality as putting the Pro before the MX160? 

With the Pro being placed after the Pre Pro, (on the MX160 output) it still knows which input is being used on the MX160 and can adjust settings accordingly?

If this is the case, wouldn't putting the Radiance Pro after the MX160 be the preferred method of installation at this point forward (as we gain our GUI back and less hdmi connections are needed)?


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## bobof

BrolicBeast said:


> On the Lumagen remote, the button that says 2:35 on it will expand a 2:35 image to fit a 16:9 screen.


I'm a little confused as in one post you say you're using NLS and here 2:35:1 to expand to 16:9. I can't figure out how you can use NLS going from 2.35 source -> 16:9 screen - it only seems to work the other way for me (admittedly I'm only using a 2143)


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## BrolicBeast

bobof said:


> I'm a little confused as in one post you say you're using NLS and here 2:35:1 to expand to 16:9. I can't figure out how you can use NLS going from 2.35 source -> 16:9 screen - it only seems to work the other way for me (admittedly I'm only using a 2143)



I've been using Lumagen's NLS on 2:35 screens since 2012, and out of pure habit, I've incorrectly attributed the term to the zoom that I've been using to fill my 16:9 screen with a 2:35 source image. In the words of the great philosopher Plato: "oops, my bad!"



G-Rex said:


> So now with addition of the Viirtual Inputs feature on the Radiance Pro, we can place it after our theater Pre Pro (MX160) and not lose any customizable functionality as putting the Pro before the MX160?
> 
> 
> 
> With the Pro being placed after the Pre Pro, (on the MX160 output) it still knows which input is being used on the MX160 and can adjust settings accordingly?
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the case, wouldn't putting the Radiance Pro after the MX160 be the preferred method of installation at this point forward (as we gain our GUI back and less hdmi connections are needed)?



Well, the presence of a GUI overlay means video processing is occurring at some point within the Pre/Pro. It's still technically better to let the Radiance do the switching. With my RadianceMini 3D, I used virtual inputs all the time because of the two-input limitation on that device. On the Pro, it's tough to fill 8 inputs with my watching habits. 

If you go the Pre/Pro--Radiance Pro route, you'd need to program your control device to switch inputs on both the Pro (virtual) and the Pre/Pro (physical) so they align. But, there would be some video processing on the part of the Pre/Pro in order to get the graphical overlay. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## SJHT

BrolicBeast said:


> On the Lumagen remote, the button that says 2:35 on it will expand a 2:35 image to fit a 16:9 screen.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


So, you are just using zoom per your other comments to fill your 16:9 screen from a 2.35 source? Didn't know if there were other options. Thanks. SJ


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## Kris Deering

Finally got around to trying the HDR intensity mapping today on my RS4500. Jim and company have yet again done a phenomenal job. Makes HDR setup a breeze and even the default gave a fantastic image that was only improved upon with just a little tweaking. I plan on continuing my experimentation with it, though I am close to being done with the constant tweaking of things and just sitting back and enjoying my newly updated system.


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## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Finally got around to trying the HDR intensity mapping today on my RS4500. Jim and company have yet again done a phenomenal job. Makes HDR setup a breeze and even the default gave a fantastic image that was only improved upon with just a little tweaking. I plan on continuing my experimentation with it, though I am close to being done with the constant tweaking of things and just sitting back and enjoying my newly updated system.


What setting (Gamma, picture, etc.) are you using on your RS4500?


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## msleb

Can someone walk me though the virtual inputs? I am either not understanding, or the implementation is not working properly. I have a Radiance Pro 4242, and all 4 of my physical inputs are in use. For my 4k sources (Oppo, Roku 4k, Sony Streamer) I use the Radiance HDMI inputs 1, 2, 3 respectively. In the menu settings I kept the default behavior, such that HDMi 1 is input 1, etc.

For my 1080 sources (Directv, AppleTV, HTPC) I use my PrePro (Anthem) as the switching device. These sources all run into the Anthem and the HDMI output of the Anthem goes to the Radiance input 4. Here is where I would like the virtual input to work. For example, in the Anthem, I can have >20 virtual inputs, and if i wanted to I could have several of them each point to the same physical input. That's what I was trying to do with the Radiance. 

My goal would be to call input 5 DTV, input 6 ATV, input 7 HTPC, even though each of them would all point to the same physical HDMI input 4. I had assumed the new software would allow me to do so, but I can't figure out how, and am unable to assign anything >4. I have been going to Input-->HDMI setup-->Physical In, but can't make any adjustments. And, even if I could somehow assign it to 5 (or 6 or 7) how would I point multiple virtual inputs to one physical input (HDMI 4)?

The manual is very cryptic on this point and doesn't contain any new description since the Beta 052817 release. 

In case anyone is wondering, the main impetus for me is twofold- one is for custom settings for each of my 1080 sources, and the other reason is for setup on Control4, since Control 4's connections want a discrete connect for each source to the Radiance. In other words, if I connect DTV to Radiance input 4 and then try to do the same for ATV or HTPC, Control 4 displaces the prior connection. So, if I could simply tell Control that DTV is connected to Radiance input 5, ATV to input 6, etc it would be easier and I wouldn't need to program work arounds.....


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## D6500Ken

I added HDR capability to the VPL–VW1100 stack in Chicago yesterday with the Intensity Mapping firmware. The client was out of town, so this was basically a quick proof-of-concept visit. That said, it looks really impressive!


Ken Whitcomb


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## msleb

Ken, taking it a step further, could the Radiance Pro HDR intensity Mapping be used in a legacy (Sim2 C3X 1080) 1080 Projector? Obviously, the 4k output would have to be constrained to 1080, but it seems the biggest pop would come from HDR implementation.


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## D6500Ken

msleb said:


> Ken, taking it a step further, could the Radiance Pro HDR intensity Mapping be used in a legacy (Sim2 C3X 1080) 1080 Projector? Obviously, the 4k output would have to be constrained to 1080, but it seems the biggest pop would come from HDR implementation.


If the display has 10-bit resolution, the answer is yes. I will try this myself when my SP-A900B gets repaired.


Ken Whitcomb


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## thrang

Tried the new firmware released over the weekend but there seems to be a bug - elevated blacks among others

Dropped back to 0520 and issue resolved


----------



## msleb

Fascinating! I will hook up my Sim2 C3x1080 (it is 10 bit video output) and see. The picture quality I am currently achieving on my Sony 5000ES is amazing, but it only really shines by comparison to my old, still quite capable, Sim2, when viewing 4k HDR material. If the Sim2 can be made to have a similar step up in quality with a 4k HDR source I see a huge and cost effective opportunity for Lumagen. Imagine taking a $5000 PJ, adding the cost of the Radiance Pro, and having a PQ that would rival a $30-50k PJ. I will report back if I get to it next week...


----------



## msleb

thrang said:


> Tried the new firmware released over the weekend but there seems to be a bug - elevated blacks among others
> 
> Dropped back to 0520 and issue resolved


Other than the black levels can you mention any other bugs? I might have noticed some black level changes but wasnt too concerned as it was easy to adjust with the HDR IM settings and the max Nits setting. I haven't noticed any other issues. As I noted earlier, however, I am unable to make the virtual inputs work as I am intended, which is either my lack of understanding, an inherent design limitation, or a buggy implementation.


----------



## thrang

Colors washed, brightness muted - could very will be interrelated to the elevated black math...no combo of settings adjustments could get the picture as good as with 0520.

Easiest way to see is without changing your 0520 settings, upgrade and check Contrast 2 pattern - you're seeing bars you didn't know existed...


----------



## OMARDRIS

msleb said:


> ................... could the Radiance Pro HDR intensity Mapping be used in a legacy (Sim2 C3X 1080) 1080 Projector? Obviously, the 4k output would have to be constrained to 1080, but it seems the biggest pop would come from HDR implementation.


He,
Your Sim2 is a NON-HDR-BT2020 display, which also has no HDMI input, which supports HDCP 2.2. To be able to use HDR mapping, an HDCP 2.2 support must be available. Since the Radiance Pro does not convert from HDCP 2.2 to HDCP 1.4, it would be necessary to place an HDCP converter such as the HD-Fury between the radiance and the projector. This would show the Radiance an HDCP 2.2 device and at the same time send the projector an HDCP 1.4 signal.
But this is only the first step since the Sim2 can not interpret BT2020 data, the Radiance Pro requires a 3D-LUT, which adapts the BT2020 data to the capabilities of the Sim2. Such a 3D LUT can, for example, be created with the LightSpace program and loaded into the Radiance. For the Sim2, this would be an interesting thing because it has a native color space that is larger than REC 709. LightSpace would take full advantage of this capability. For this purpose, however, a color measurement with a sensor is necessary.
Only then would intensity mapping be used to adapt the HDR-EOTF to the SDR capabilities of the SIM2.

This is completely independent of the resolution. The conversion of 4k resolutions to 1080p is an easy exercise for the Radiance Pro.

In any case you should test the whole chain before an investment, because I do not know whether the Sim2 the 12Bit signal of the Radiance well processed.
Perhaps Gordon can say more.

Peter


----------



## D6500Ken

thrang said:


> Tried the new firmware released over the weekend but there seems to be a bug - elevated blacks among others
> 
> Dropped back to 0520 and issue resolved


I also experience problems with ver. 0528 on the 1100 stack. On Jim's recommendation, I reverted to 0520.


Ken Whitcomb


----------



## thrang

D6500Ken said:


> I also experience problems with ver. 0528 on the 1100 stack. On Jim's recommendation, I reverted to 0520.
> 
> 
> Ken Whitcomb


I sent Patrick my config on request, on the off chance it was settings related, but this would confirm it's a pretty obvious bug. Not sure how that one got released...


----------



## alex_t

thrang said:


> I sent Patrick my config on request, on the off chance it was settings related, but this would confirm it's a pretty obvious bug. Not sure how that one got released...


Hello,

I reported the issue during the weekend. Good to hear that I'm not the only one.

No doubt Lumagen is going to solve it quickly.


----------



## OMARDRIS

thrang said:


> Colors washed, brightness muted - could very will be interrelated to the elevated black math...no combo of settings adjustments could get the picture as good as with 0520.


Hi,
You're right - just tested it again. And I thought I had only a bad day yesterday. 
Thank you
Peter


----------



## msleb

msleb said:


> Can someone walk me though the virtual inputs? I am either not understanding, or the implementation is not working properly. I have a Radiance Pro 4242, and all 4 of my physical inputs are in use. For my 4k sources (Oppo, Roku 4k, Sony Streamer) I use the Radiance HDMI inputs 1, 2, 3 respectively. In the menu settings I kept the default behavior, such that HDMi 1 is input 1, etc.
> 
> For my 1080 sources (Directv, AppleTV, HTPC) I use my PrePro (Anthem) as the switching device. These sources all run into the Anthem and the HDMI output of the Anthem goes to the Radiance input 4. Here is where I would like the virtual input to work. For example, in the Anthem, I can have >20 virtual inputs, and if i wanted to I could have several of them each point to the same physical input. That's what I was trying to do with the Radiance.
> 
> My goal would be to call input 5 DTV, input 6 ATV, input 7 HTPC, even though each of them would all point to the same physical HDMI input 4. I had assumed the new software would allow me to do so, but I can't figure out how, and am unable to assign anything >4. I have been going to Input-->HDMI setup-->Physical In, but can't make any adjustments. And, even if I could somehow assign it to 5 (or 6 or 7) how would I point multiple virtual inputs to one physical input (HDMI 4)?
> 
> The manual is very cryptic on this point and doesn't contain any new description since the Beta 052817 release.
> 
> In case anyone is wondering, the main impetus for me is twofold- one is for custom settings for each of my 1080 sources, and the other reason is for setup on Control4, since Control 4's connections want a discrete connect for each source to the Radiance. In other words, if I connect DTV to Radiance input 4 and then try to do the same for ATV or HTPC, Control 4 displaces the prior connection. So, if I could simply tell Control that DTV is connected to Radiance input 5, ATV to input 6, etc it would be easier and I wouldn't need to program work arounds.....


I see new Beta 052917 to replace the faulty black levels is up- that was fast! Any advice on my earlier question re Virtual/Physical input switching?


----------



## Mike_WI

msleb said:


> I see new Beta 052917 to replace the faulty black levels is up- that was fast! Any advice on my earlier question re Virtual/Physical input switching?


Where do you see a Beta 052917?
Not here:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## msleb

Mike_WI said:


> Where do you see a Beta 052917?
> Not here:
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


I think the confusion is due to 052817 no longer being listed. Instead, the 052917 firmware is there, where it says "Beta 052917- (replaced 052817 which introduced a black level issue with HDR sources) Improved input HDR intensity mapping setup to have 2 groups of settings to allow for handling differences due to HDR Source Max light levels. The 2 groups of settings are visible under Input: Options: HDR Mapping. Improved Output: CMS: HDR Mapping so adjustments can be viewed while making them. Increased precision and speed of Output black adjust (in menu under Output: CMS: Black). Now allowing unused/unpopulated physical inputs to be used as virtual inputs up to input 8. Other small fixes and improvements. Also see latest for more details on HDR setup & calibration. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware"

Maybe try emptying your browser's cache?


----------



## Mike_WI

msleb said:


> I think the confusion is due to 052817 no longer being listed. Instead, the 052917 firmware is there, where it says "Beta 052917- (replaced 052817 which introduced a black level issue with HDR sources) Improved input HDR intensity mapping setup to have 2 groups of settings to allow for handling differences due to HDR Source Max light levels. The 2 groups of settings are visible under Input: Options: HDR Mapping. Improved Output: CMS: HDR Mapping so adjustments can be viewed while making them. Increased precision and speed of Output black adjust (in menu under Output: CMS: Black). Now allowing unused/unpopulated physical inputs to be used as virtual inputs up to input 8. Other small fixes and improvements. Also see latest for more details on HDR setup & calibration. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware"
> 
> Maybe try emptying your browser's cache?


Thanks.
I must have looked and seen old version.
Thanks.

Mike


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 052917*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 052917*
(replaced 052817 which introduced a black level issue with HDR sources) 
Improved input HDR intensity mapping setup to have 2 groups of settings to allow for handling differences due to HDR Source Max light levels. 
The 2 groups of settings are visible under *Input: Options: HDR Mapping*. 
Improved* Output: CMS: HDR Mapping* so adjustments can be viewed while making them. 
Increased precision and speed of Output black adjust (in menu under *Output: CMS: Black*). 
Now allowing unused/unpopulated physical inputs to be used as virtual inputs up to input 8. 
Other small fixes and improvements. 

Also see latest for more details on HDR setup & calibration. 

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .

Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## LJG

For some unknown reason with the newest firmware 5/28 and 5/29 the display max lights can't be saved for 200 or less, it's saved minimum is 300. Anyone else see this?


----------



## mskreis

LJG said:


> For some unknown reason with the newest firmware 5/28 and 5/29 the display max lights can't be saved for 200 or less, it's saved minimum is 300. Anyone else see this?




I believe I was able to save 50, but I'll confirm.


----------



## Kris Deering

I updated to the new firmware and adjusted my black level. Will see how it turns out. Running a 1886/2020 LUT calibration now for the base. Will report how it all turns out later.


----------



## RapalloAV

Does anyone here using the Pro and 18GHz cards have it connected to last years JVCs?
I have an X9000 and have never been able to get an image on the screen when using 4K @ 50/60 4:2:2 out.
4K @ 24 4:2:2 out is fine, but for me will not work at 50/60.
The HDMI cable is on on the HDMI cable ok list for 4K and from Monoprice, it is only 3M to the projector. 

4K @ 50/60 4:2:2 out works fine using the same cables to my LG 4K OLED...

Is this a JVC problem or something else?

Thanks in advance...


----------



## SJHT

RapalloAV said:


> Does anyone here using the Pro and 18GHz cards have it connected to last years JVCs?
> I have an X9000 and have never been able to get an image on the screen when using 4K @ 50/60 4:2:2 out.
> 4K @ 24 4:2:2 out is fine, but for me will not work at 50/60.
> The HDMI cable is on on the HDMI cable ok list for 4K and from Monoprice, it is only 3M to the projector.
> 
> 4K @ 50/60 4:2:2 out works fine using the same cables to my LG 4K OLED...
> 
> Is this a JVC problem or something else?
> 
> Thanks in advance...


Mine works fine to a RS600. I output from the Pro from several sources and that is with a 50 foot cable to my projector. Outputting 4:2:2 60. Deep color is greyed out on the JVC Status screen. You may want to contact Lumagen. SJ


----------



## RapalloAV

SJHT said:


> Mine works fine to a RS600. I output from the Pro from several sources and that is with a 50 foot cable to my projector. Outputting 4:2:2 60. Deep color is greyed out on the JVC Status screen. You may want to contact Lumagen. SJ


Thanks for that SJ. Is the RS600 the same model as the X9000?
I have had many emails with Jim but we cant seem to find the problem


----------



## SJHT

RapalloAV said:


> Thanks for that SJ. Is the RS600 the same model as the X9000?
> I have had many emails with Jim but we cant seem to find the problem


Same model from my understanding. Does it work when outputting 4:2:0 8 bit? SJ


----------



## RapalloAV

SJHT said:


> Same model from my understanding. Does it work when outputting 4:2:0 8 bit? SJ


Yes 4K 50/60 will work at 4:2:0


----------



## alex_t

LJG said:


> For some unknown reason with the newest firmware 5/28 and 5/29 the display max lights can't be saved for 200 or less, it's saved minimum is 300. Anyone else see this?


Hello

Not tested yet but it should be corrected with 05/30 : http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 053017*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 053017*
(replaced 052817-052917 which introduced a black level issue with HDR sources and incorrect limit on Display Max Light) 
Improved input HDR intensity mapping setup to have 2 groups of settings to allow for handling differences due to HDR Source Max light levels. 
The 2 groups of settings are visible under *Input: Options: HDR Mapping*. 
Improved* Output: CMS: HDR Mapping *so adjustments can be viewed while making them. 
Increased precision and speed of Output black adjust (in menu under *Output: CMS: Black*). 
Now allowing unused/unpopulated physical inputs to be used as virtual inputs up to input 8. 
Other small fixes and improvements. 

*Also see latest for more details on HDR setup & calibration. *

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .

Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## BrolicBeast

I don't normally post these full episodes of my build series outside of my own threads, but this one includes another look at HDR Intensity Mapping (mostly, playing with max output settings, transition, and black (zero v. negative).







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SJHT

RapalloAV said:


> Yes 4K 50/60 will work at 4:2:0


The only issue I have had with 4K60 4:2:2 is when I've had CMD ON. Doesn't always happen, but get strange syncing lines/color. You could try that. Also, the input format sometimes causes really long syncs. I even switched my Strato to output 1080P60 on the title screen as that works faster as an input (movie covers screen) vs. 4K60. The Pro is still outputting 4K60 4:2:2. The Strato then outputs 4K24 for 4K movies.


----------



## tibia

*HDR or SDR*

The Pro owner's manual describes HDR calibration with different setting options depending on whether the display is HDR or SDR. I have a JVC RS600 and Pro. It seems to me all JVC projectors excepting perhaps RS4500 should be considered SDR. Can anyone offer an opinion on this?

Thanks,


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 060117*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 060117*
Change to allow 42xx models to use inputs 5-8 as virtual inputs. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## qualos

I was getting video and audio drop outs with 0530. Went back to 0520 and problem went away again. I am running 18Ghz cards.

Originally I had issues when I first fitted the 18Ghz cards then I installed 50ft Monoprice HDR cable and problem went away until i updated to 0530, so far so good back on 0520


----------



## Wookii

SJHT said:


> The only issue I have had with 4K60 4:2:2 is when I've had CMD ON. Doesn't always happen, but get strange syncing lines/color. You could try that. Also, the input format sometimes causes really long syncs. I even switched my Strato to output 1080P60 on the title screen as that works faster as an input (movie covers screen) vs. 4K60. The Pro is still outputting 4K60 4:2:2. The Strato then outputs 4K24 for 4K movies.


Try setting the pro to output 4K24 4:2:2 continuously for the Strato for all frame rates. It does cause a bit of judder on the movie wall when navigating, but well worth it for the elimination of all syncing - particularly useful when switching between movies to check out various clips. You will then be able to see the Strato interface in its full 4K glory.


----------



## SJHT

Wookii said:


> Try setting the pro to output 4K24 4:2:2 continuously for the Strato for all frame rates. It does cause a bit of judder on the movie wall when navigating, but well worth it for the elimination of all syncing - particularly useful when switching between movies to check out various clips. You will then be able to see the Strato interface in its full 4K glory.


I tried that awhile back and didn't like the judder, but may try again because syncing on my projector is horrible.... SJ


----------



## Wookii

SJHT said:


> I tried that awhile back and didn't like the judder, but may try again because syncing on my projector is horrible.... SJ


I have the same PJ as you, that's why I suggested it. The judder is annoying compared to a nice smooth 60Hz interface, I agree. But I find the 30 second black outs when switching from interface to movie (especially when it means you miss the start every time, even worse when its a scene), and again back from movie to interface, considerably more annoying.


----------



## SJHT

qualos said:


> I was getting video and audio drop outs with 0530. Went back to 0520 and problem went away again. I am running 18Ghz cards.
> 
> Originally I had issues when I first fitted the 18Ghz cards then I installed 50ft Monoprice HDR cable and problem went away until i updated to 0530, so far so good back on 0520


Anyone else have this issue? I don't believe they updated the cards on 0530. They did on 0520. I'm always nervous when they do something to the cards firmware.... SJ


----------



## netroamer

SJHT said:


> Anyone else have this issue? I don't believe they updated the cards on 0530. They did on 0520. I'm always nervous when they do something to the cards firmware.... SJ


I have been having consistent issues with the 18ghz cards...constant loss of video at startup, and during viewing of 4k sources through the 18ghz cards and loss of audio when switching between 18-9ghz sources. I have the test equipment to isolate and test each part of the system at full 4k Rec 2020, HDR values, and outside the Pro the system is rock solid. Also, there is no issue when viewing 2k sources through the 9ghz cards.


----------



## dinamigym

SJHT said:


> Anyone else have this issue? I don't believe they updated the cards on 0530. They did on 0520. I'm always nervous when they do something to the cards firmware.... SJ




I have a 45ft HDMI run from the Lumagen Pro to my proj (Sony 5000es). Sync definitely seemed more difficult post update but when I changed output from Auto2 to "Everything 60hz use 2160p60 and everything 24hz use 2160p24 it improved sync significantly! My sync also seems very dependent on the Lumagen being turned on followed by my AVR and finally the projector. The order seems critical in my instance.

I'm using Ethereal MHX cable & HDM-GA1 accelerator 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dinamigym

dinamigym said:


> I have a 45ft HDMI run from the Lumagen Pro to my proj (Sony 5000es). Sync definitely seemed more difficult post update but when I changed output from Auto2 to "Everything 60hz use 2160p60 and everything 24hz use 2160p24 it improved sync significantly! My sync also seems very dependent on the Lumagen being turned on followed by my AVR and finally the projector. The order seems critical in my instance.
> 
> I'm using Ethereal MHX cable & HDM-GA1 accelerator
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




....I have all 18ghz cards in my Lumagen as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

*HT gear startup sequencing*



dinamigym said:


> I have a 45ft HDMI run from the Lumagen Pro to my proj (Sony 5000es). Sync definitely seemed more difficult post update but when I changed output from Auto2 to "Everything 60hz use 2160p60 and everything 24hz use 2160p24 it improved sync significantly! My sync also seems very dependent on the Lumagen being turned on followed by my AVR and finally the projector. The order seems critical in my instance.
> 
> I'm using Ethereal MHX cable & HDM-GA1 accelerator
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My startup sequence is:
Projector -> AVR/Amp (via a Surge-X sequencing button) -> Lumagen/Oppo (around same time - would have to double check on that).

Interesting conversation.


----------



## jamesmil

Possibly related, this is a great resource on long (aka over 15') cables that work well with high bandwidth content:

TEST REPORTS | HDMI CABLES WHICH PROPERLY AND RELIABLY SUPPORT 18GBPS & HDMI 2.0b

And as Jim explained, and I've experienced first hand, it is not just whether you are sending a full 18Ghz signal to the display, or even if the same source works when the Radiance is not in the chain. The HDMI chipset used in the 18Ghz Radiance Pro output cards require a high quality cable for long runs.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta FW stable for updating?*

I am currently on Beta 052017.
I've been out of town so didn't do newer FW updates (052817, 052917, 053017).
Do you think it is stable enough now to jump to the 060117 beta FW?

Selected gear is noted in signature.
(I just updated the Oppo to newest Official FW today. Still need to update my JVC RS520 FW).

Mike


----------



## RapalloAV

SJHT said:


> The only issue I have had with 4K60 4:2:2 is when I've had CMD ON. Doesn't always happen, but get strange syncing lines/color. You could try that. Also, the input format sometimes causes really long syncs. I even switched my Strato to output 1080P60 on the title screen as that works faster as an input (movie covers screen) vs. 4K60. The Pro is still outputting 4K60 4:2:2. The Strato then outputs 4K24 for 4K movies.


I just tested it again making sure CMD was off, it still wont lock onto the JVC X9000 inputting 4K 50 4:2:2 with the 18GHz card.
It does at 4K 50 4.2.0

As I mentioned I only have a 6ft cable going from the Pro to the projector, I have tried many cables as I bought a heap from Monoprice expecting trouble when I went to the 18GHz cards. These same cables would when I replace the proj with my new 4K OLED LG.

This is the cables Im using, bought many different lengths, none will work with the JVC.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15428

Is there anything else you can think of as Jim has tried and tried to help resolve this but we have no good news... We have been testing and trying this now for approx 2 months and have virtually now all given up!


----------



## Wookii

RapalloAV said:


> I just tested it again making sure CMD was off, it still wont lock onto the JVC X9000 inputting 4K 50 4:2:2 with the 18GHz card.
> It does at 4K 50 4.2.0
> 
> As I mentioned I only have a 6ft cable going from the Pro to the projector, I have tried many cables as I bought a heap from Monoprice expecting trouble when I went to the 18GHz cards. These same cables would when I replace the proj with my new 4K OLED LG.
> 
> This is the cables Im using, bought many different lengths, none will work with the JVC.
> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15428
> 
> Is there anything else you can think of as Jim has tried and tried to help resolve this but we have no good news... We have been testing and trying this now for approx 2 months and have virtually now all given up!


I take it you have the same 6ft Monoprice cable from the source to the Pro also?


----------



## RapalloAV

Wookii said:


> I take it you have the same 6ft Monoprice cable from the source to the Pro also?


Yes and also for the audio.


----------



## G-Rex

netroamer said:


> I have been having consistent issues with the 18ghz cards...constant loss of video at startup, and during viewing of 4k sources through the 18ghz cards and loss of audio when switching between 18-9ghz sources. I have the test equipment to isolate and test each part of the system at full 4k Rec 2020, HDR values, and outside the Pro the system is rock solid. Also, there is no issue when viewing 2k sources through the 9ghz cards.


Why not use the 9 ghz output from the Pro and just set 4K sources to 4:2:2 10 or 12 bit color? No need to go beyond that for this round of 4k bluray. Is that stable out of the Pro?


----------



## msleb

Mike_WI said:


> I am currently on Beta 052017.
> I've been out of town so didn't do newer FW updates (052817, 052917, 053017).
> Do you think it is stable enough now to jump to the 060117 beta FW?
> 
> Selected gear is noted in signature.
> (I just updated the Oppo to newest Official FW today. Still need to update my JVC RS520 FW).
> 
> Mike


I updated to 060117 last night and found no issues. And the virtual inputs are now available to me on inputs 5-8 on my Radiance Pro 4242, whereas they were no working as such for earlier firmware revisions


----------



## msleb

Does anyone have the Pronto Hex code (i.e. the IR code that Control4 requires) for the 'HELP' command? That command is missing from the C4 driver that is available on the Lumagen website, and it is not learnable. The IR binary code is listed on the Lumagen website, but I don't have enough experience to translate the binary code to the format C4 requires.

Per tip 12

Each of the buttons on the remote transmits a message that consists of 13 short bursts of Infrared (IR) energy. Every IR energy burst is identical in frequency and duration. Every IR burst consists of 16 cycles of IR energy at a carrier frequency of 38kHz. The duration of every IR burst is 400 us. It is the gap between these IR bursts that contains the information. There are three different gap lengths.
• Short gaps are 2.5 ms between IR bursts.
• Long gaps are 5.0 ms between IR bursts.
• The inter-message gap is 11.0 ms long.
• A logic 0 consists of a 400 us IR burst followed by a short gap.
• A logic 1 consists of a 400 us IR burst followed by a long gap.
• The first 4 gaps are the preamble, consisting of two short gaps (logic 0), a long gap (logic 1), then a short gap (logic 0).
• This is followed by a parity bit to help ensure data integrity. The parity bit will be a long gap (logic 1) when there is an odd number of long gaps (logic 1).
• A short gap (logic 0) follows the parity bit.
• The next 7 gaps contain the button information, arranged as 4 bits for row 0-15 and 2 bits for column 1-4. After the final information gap there is an IR burst followed by a long (11.0 ms) inter- message gap.
For example, pressing the key in the fourth row, third column will produce the code: 0010 00 0011 10. Preamble 0010, parity bit 0, row 0011, column 10. This is the IR code for the number “3”.


IR binary command for 'HELP' is 0010 10 0000 11
IR Hex for 'HELP' is 283

Thanks


----------



## Mike_WI

msleb said:


> I updated to 060117 last night and found no issues. And the virtual inputs are now available to me on inputs 5-8 on my Radiance Pro 4242, whereas they were no working as such for earlier firmware revisions


Thanks.
I did update last night, but just watched second half of a blu ray movie with kids.
I only moved around the menus and noticed new info in information screens.
Will like to play with the 4K UHD updates later.

Mike


----------



## JFR0317

msleb said:


> Does anyone have the Pronto Hex code (i.e. the IR code that Control4 requires) for the 'HELP' command? That command is missing from the C4 driver that is available on the Lumagen website, and it is not learnable. The IR binary code is listed on the Lumagen website, but I don't have enough experience to translate the binary code to the format C4 requires.
> 
> Per tip 12
> 
> Each of the buttons on the remote transmits a message that consists of 13 short bursts of Infrared (IR) energy. Every IR energy burst is identical in frequency and duration. Every IR burst consists of 16 cycles of IR energy at a carrier frequency of 38kHz. The duration of every IR burst is 400 us. It is the gap between these IR bursts that contains the information. There are three different gap lengths.
> • Short gaps are 2.5 ms between IR bursts.
> • Long gaps are 5.0 ms between IR bursts.
> • The inter-message gap is 11.0 ms long.
> • A logic 0 consists of a 400 us IR burst followed by a short gap.
> • A logic 1 consists of a 400 us IR burst followed by a long gap.
> • The first 4 gaps are the preamble, consisting of two short gaps (logic 0), a long gap (logic 1), then a short gap (logic 0).
> • This is followed by a parity bit to help ensure data integrity. The parity bit will be a long gap (logic 1) when there is an odd number of long gaps (logic 1).
> • A short gap (logic 0) follows the parity bit.
> • The next 7 gaps contain the button information, arranged as 4 bits for row 0-15 and 2 bits for column 1-4. After the final information gap there is an IR burst followed by a long (11.0 ms) inter- message gap.
> For example, pressing the key in the fourth row, third column will produce the code: 0010 00 0011 10. Preamble 0010, parity bit 0, row 0011, column 10. This is the IR code for the number “3”.
> 
> 
> IR binary command for 'HELP' is 0010 10 0000 11
> IR Hex for 'HELP' is 283
> 
> Thanks


You might try using the Control4 serial driver instead of the IR driver. The "Help" command is included with that.


----------



## msleb

JFR0317 said:


> You might try using the Control4 serial driver instead of the IR driver. The "Help" command is included with that.


Thanks. Thats an option for sure, but it'd be easier to stay with my IR driver since it does everything else I need other than 'HELP'. I guess if I can't figure it out its not a big deal to swap to the serial driver....


----------



## jaychatbonneau

jrp said:


> We have plans to support HDR10, and are working on both Rec 2020 and HDR10.
> 
> For Dolby Vision, we are in a wait and see mode. Once we get the HDR10 and Rec 2020 implemented we plan to contact Dolby and see what is involved both as to cost to license, and the cost in logic gates in the Radiance Pro FPGA. If everything makes sense we will certainly consider adding Dolby Vision.


Any news on this front?


----------



## netroamer

G-Rex said:


> Why not use the 9 ghz output from the Pro and just set 4K sources to 4:2:2 10 or 12 bit color? No need to go beyond that for this round of 4k bluray. Is that stable out of the Pro?


Thanks for the suggestion, however, I have only 18ghz output cards. But, that seems like a step backwards. Are you suggesting giving up HDR, which requires 18ghz output, for the sake of stability?


----------



## Alyaji

msleb said:


> Thanks. Thats an option for sure, but it'd be easier to stay with my IR driver since it does everything else I need other than 'HELP'. I guess if I can't figure it out its not a big deal to swap to the serial driver....


Hi there,

Try this one and let me know if that works. I haven't tested it since I'm using serial to control the Pro from an Elan g! system.

0000 006D 0000 0034 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 0060 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CD 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 00CD 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 0060 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CE 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CE 0010 0026


----------



## G-Rex

netroamer said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, however, I have only 18ghz output cards. But, that seems like a step backwards. Are you suggesting giving up HDR, which requires 18ghz output, for the sake of stability?


No, I'm not suggesting giving up HDR. My McIntosh MX160 has a 2.0a 10.2 gbps hdmi chipset and I can pass HDR fine, just not at 60hz 4:4:4. 
If you had a second hdmi out at the lesser bandwidth, it would have been worth a try.


----------



## msleb

Alyaji said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Try this one and let me know if that works. I haven't tested it since I'm using serial to control the Pro from an Elan g! system.
> 
> 0000 006D 0000 0034 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 0060 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CD 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 00CD 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 0060 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CE 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CE 0010 0026


Thanks! Will try tonight and report back.
I am getting mixed messages about the serial driver. My C4 installer is telling me "its not as simple as all that" and says he can't just use the serial driver instead of the IR driver and that its complicated to set up. Wouldn't he simply add the serial driver in the same manner as the IR driver?


----------



## Alyaji

msleb said:


> Thanks! Will try tonight and report back.
> I am getting mixed messages about the serial driver. My C4 installer is telling me "its not as simple as all that" and says he can't just use the serial driver instead of the IR driver and that its complicated to set up. Wouldn't he simply add the serial driver in the same manner as the IR driver?


Can't comment on C4, which I'm not familiar with... but serial control works fine (and integration was easy) with my Elan g! System.


----------



## JFR0317

msleb said:


> Thanks! Will try tonight and report back.
> I am getting mixed messages about the serial driver. My C4 installer is telling me "its not as simple as all that" and says he can't just use the serial driver instead of the IR driver and that its complicated to set up. Wouldn't he simply add the serial driver in the same manner as the IR driver?


The serial driver would be added to the Control4 project via Composer Pro, which is the dealer programming software, in the same manner as adding an IR driver. Under the Connections area of Composer Pro, the audio and video connections would be done in the same manner as with the IR driver, and the Control Input connections would be made for serial instead of IR. Nothing about that is more complicated than with the IR driver.

The physical difference is that with the serial driver, a serial cable would need to be connected from your Control4 controller (either primary or secondary) to your Radiance Pro's serial input. With the IR driver, you would either need a cable running from an IR output on the controller to the IR input on the Radiance Pro or to use the IR blaster function of the controller if its front panel is withing range of the Radiance Pro's front panel (such as in the same rack in an equipment closet).

Depending on where your Control4 controller is located relative to where your Radiance Pro is and on how your installer is currently getting the IR signal to the Radiance Pro would determine whether it would be easy to make a serial connection. Even with that, there are RS-232 serial to RJ-45 adapters to let you use a Cat 5 cable for long runs.

The other consideration might be if your installer is already using all of the available serial outputs on your Control4 controller. An HC-250, EA-1, and EA-3 can only do a maximum of two serial outputs each, while an HC-800 or an EA-5 can do four.

Let me know if you have more questions. I am using the serial driver in my personal system, and it was straight-forward to set up and has worked flawlessly.


----------



## msleb

JFR0317 said:


> The serial driver would be added to the Control4 project via Composer Pro, which is the dealer programming software, in the same manner as adding an IR driver. Under the Connections area of Composer Pro, the audio and video connections would be done in the same manner as with the IR driver, and the Control Input connections would be made for serial instead of IR. Nothing about that is more complicated than with the IR driver.
> 
> The physical difference is that with the serial driver, a serial cable would need to be connected from your Control4 controller (either primary or secondary) to your Radiance Pro's serial input. With the IR driver, you would either need a cable running from an IR output on the controller to the IR input on the Radiance Pro or to use the IR blaster function of the controller if its front panel is withing range of the Radiance Pro's front panel (such as in the same rack in an equipment closet).
> 
> Depending on where your Control4 controller is located relative to where your Radiance Pro is and on how your installer is currently getting the IR signal to the Radiance Pro would determine whether it would be easy to make a serial connection. Even with that, there are RS-232 serial to RJ-45 adapters to let you use a Cat 5 cable for long runs.
> 
> The other consideration might be if your installer is already using all of the available serial outputs on your Control4 controller. An HC-250, EA-1, and EA-3 can only do a maximum of two serial outputs each, while an HC-800 or an EA-5 can do four.
> 
> Let me know if you have more questions. I am using the serial driver in my personal system, and it was straight-forward to set up and has worked flawlessly.


Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've served as apprentice to >10 yrs of C4 programming so I suspected everything you told me to be true, so thanks for the confirmation. My HC800 is about 1' away from the Radiance Pro, and all serial outputs are unused, so seems to be a very simple swap of serial for IR.

Does this method give you access to all of the innate Lumagen remote buttons? (alt, menu, previous, etc)? With the IR driver, I had to create custom buttons in order to pull up the menu or choose input etc


----------



## JFR0317

msleb said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've served as apprentice to >10 yrs of C4 programming so I suspected everything you told me to be true, so thanks for the confirmation. My HC800 is about 1' away from the Radiance Pro, and all serial outputs are unused, so seems to be a very simple swap of serial for IR.
> 
> Does this method give you access to all of the innate Lumagen remote buttons? (alt, menu, previous, etc)? With the IR driver, I had to create custom buttons in order to pull up the menu or choose input etc


All of the functions of the Lumagen remote are available and/or can be assigned to your Control4 remote's buttons or to custom buttons you have programmed. The issue for me is that most of the C4 remote's buttons are mapped to whatever source you have selected (i.e., Blu-ray, Sat box, etc.), so you either have to choose some otherwise unassigned buttons such as "#", "*", one of the "Dot" buttons on the new SR260 remotes, or use custom buttons for any Lumagen functions you want.


----------



## MJV29

netroamer said:


> G-Rex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not use the 9 ghz output from the Pro and just set 4K sources to 4:2:2 10 or 12 bit color? No need to go beyond that for this round of 4k bluray. Is that stable out of the Pro?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, however, I have only 18ghz output cards. But, that seems like a step backwards. Are you suggesting giving up HDR, which requires 18ghz output, for the sake of stability?
Click to expand...


My understanding is that you only need 18ghz cards for Dolby Vision and for 60hz above 8 bits. You can still have HDR with 9ghz.


----------



## msleb

JFR0317 said:


> All of the functions of the Lumagen remote are available and/or can be assigned to your Control4 remote's buttons or to custom buttons you have programmed. The issue for me is that most of the C4 remote's buttons are mapped to whatever source you have selected (i.e., Blu-ray, Sat box, etc.), so you either have to choose some otherwise unassigned buttons such as "#", "*", one of the "Dot" buttons on the new SR260 remotes, or use custom buttons for any Lumagen functions you want.


Thanks. So in that regard the Serial driver and IR driver are the same. Last question- if I use serial control don't I have to make a change in the Radiance setup menu? Any suggestions for settings that work well? I believe there are a number of options:

*RS-232 Power OnMessage/OffMessage--*

Power On/Off Message that can be used to control another device. Can be used to send an ASCII string out the RS-232 port to turn on or off a display. NOTE: Turning “On” RS-232 power OnMessage/OffMessage in the Radiance menu, turns off echoing of the original query command. The query response will still be sent. The command is:
MENU → Other → OnOff Setup→ (On Message, Off Message)

*Message Control*

Set BAUD rate, parity and gap for the Power On/Off Message. The command is:
MENU → Other → OnOff Setup→ Message Ctl On Screen Display Message
Turn On/Off the input display window that is shown at the bottom of the screen when you change inputs. If you use a control system to change inputs on the Radiance you can set OSD enable to “Off”. The command is:
MENU → Other → Menu Control→ OSD enable

*Echo command*

When Echo is set to “Off”, the Radiance will only send a message at power on/off.
When Echo is set to “Off with Status”, the status for power or input changes are in the same format as the response to status query commands ZQS02 or ZQI00.
When Echo is set to “On”, the Radiance will echo all characters sent to it. Also see the “ZE” command.
The command is:
MENU → Other → I/O Setup→ RS-232 Setup→ Echo→ (Off, Off with Status, On) Optional start/end delimiters for RS232 commands

*NOTE: Lumagen recommends the non-delimiter mode as it works well and simplifies programming.*

When Delimiters is set to “On” or “On with Ack/Nack”, the Radiance accepts RS232 commands in the format “#”. Start is '#'. End is or a terminator. Any character outside the legal range for characters, Hex 20 to Hex 7A will act as a terminator. Characters above Hex 7F are masked off with “x7F”. Commands that already end with a do not need a second .

When Delimiters is set to “On with Ack/Nack”, an ack or nack will be given per command. Ack = "!Y", Nack="!N". An ack is given when a '#", pair is seen with at least one character in between. A nack is generated if unmatched start/end delimiters are seen or if a '#', pair is sent with nothing in between. The ack does not indicate whether the character(s) in between '#', represented a valid command.
When Delimiters is set to "On with Csum & Ack/Nack" the Radiance accepts commands in the format:"#NcommandCC", where N is a command count from 0-9 (10 just wraps back to 0), and CC is an 8 bit checksum of the previous chars in the command (.ie "#0ZQS008E" is a correctly formatted command with a valid checksum). Acks ("!Y") are sent by the Radiance only when commands are received with matching checksums in this mode. The command count is included in the checksum but is not verified to be incrementing so it can be left unchanged from one command to the next if desired. The command is:
MENU → Other → I/O Setup→ RS-232 Setup→ Delimiters→ (Off, On, On with Ack/Nack) RS232 reporting of mode changes

Radiance mode changes can be automatically reported when the Radiance detects a relevant mode change. This is useful for control systems that need to take other actions when an output mode changes occur. When enabled and an output mode change occurs, the Radiance will send a string reporting the new mode information as if the rs232 mode inquiry command had been issued to the Radiance. The query commands that can be auto reported are ZQI18, ZQI21, and for the Radiance Pro (only) ZQI22. The command is:

MENU → Other → I/O Setup→ RS-232 Setup→Report mode changes→ (Off, On)


----------



## JFR0317

msleb said:


> Thanks. So in that regard the Serial driver and IR driver are the same. Last question- if I use serial control don't I have to make a change in the Radiance setup menu? Any suggestions for settings that work well? I believe there are a number of options:
> 
> *RS-232 Power OnMessage/OffMessage--*
> 
> Power On/Off Message that can be used to control another device. Can be used to send an ASCII string out the RS-232 port to turn on or off a display. NOTE: Turning “On” RS-232 power OnMessage/OffMessage in the Radiance menu, turns off echoing of the original query command. The query response will still be sent. The command is:
> MENU → Other → OnOff Setup→ (On Message, Off Message)
> 
> *Message Control*
> 
> Set BAUD rate, parity and gap for the Power On/Off Message. The command is:
> MENU → Other → OnOff Setup→ Message Ctl On Screen Display Message
> Turn On/Off the input display window that is shown at the bottom of the screen when you change inputs. If you use a control system to change inputs on the Radiance you can set OSD enable to “Off”. The command is:
> MENU → Other → Menu Control→ OSD enable
> 
> *Echo command*
> 
> When Echo is set to “Off”, the Radiance will only send a message at power on/off.
> When Echo is set to “Off with Status”, the status for power or input changes are in the same format as the response to status query commands ZQS02 or ZQI00.
> When Echo is set to “On”, the Radiance will echo all characters sent to it. Also see the “ZE” command.
> The command is:
> MENU → Other → I/O Setup→ RS-232 Setup→ Echo→ (Off, Off with Status, On) Optional start/end delimiters for RS232 commands
> 
> *NOTE: Lumagen recommends the non-delimiter mode as it works well and simplifies programming.*
> 
> When Delimiters is set to “On” or “On with Ack/Nack”, the Radiance accepts RS232 commands in the format “#”. Start is '#'. End is or a terminator. Any character outside the legal range for characters, Hex 20 to Hex 7A will act as a terminator. Characters above Hex 7F are masked off with “x7F”. Commands that already end with a do not need a second .
> 
> When Delimiters is set to “On with Ack/Nack”, an ack or nack will be given per command. Ack = "!Y", Nack="!N". An ack is given when a '#", pair is seen with at least one character in between. A nack is generated if unmatched start/end delimiters are seen or if a '#', pair is sent with nothing in between. The ack does not indicate whether the character(s) in between '#', represented a valid command.
> When Delimiters is set to "On with Csum & Ack/Nack" the Radiance accepts commands in the format:"#NcommandCC", where N is a command count from 0-9 (10 just wraps back to 0), and CC is an 8 bit checksum of the previous chars in the command (.ie "#0ZQS008E" is a correctly formatted command with a valid checksum). Acks ("!Y") are sent by the Radiance only when commands are received with matching checksums in this mode. The command count is included in the checksum but is not verified to be incrementing so it can be left unchanged from one command to the next if desired. The command is:
> MENU → Other → I/O Setup→ RS-232 Setup→ Delimiters→ (Off, On, On with Ack/Nack) RS232 reporting of mode changes
> 
> Radiance mode changes can be automatically reported when the Radiance detects a relevant mode change. This is useful for control systems that need to take other actions when an output mode changes occur. When enabled and an output mode change occurs, the Radiance will send a string reporting the new mode information as if the rs232 mode inquiry command had been issued to the Radiance. The query commands that can be auto reported are ZQI18, ZQI21, and for the Radiance Pro (only) ZQI22. The command is:
> 
> MENU → Other → I/O Setup→ RS-232 Setup→Report mode changes→ (Off, On)


I don't remember having to do any of those settings changes for my system, but it's been over a year since I set it up. I am at our other house for the next week, or I would check my settings to be sure.

You might also send an email to Jim Peterson at Lumagen asking him if the current RS-232 Control4 driver on the Lumagen website is the most current. When I was setting mine up, Jim sent me a slightly different version that was updated from what was on the website at the time.


----------



## msleb

MJV29 said:


> My understanding is that you only need 18ghz cards for Dolby Vision and for 60hz above 8 bits. You can still have HDR with 9ghz.


Not sure where I came upon this, but this attachment will help you understand the data throughput requirements


----------



## msleb

JFR0317 said:


> I don't remember having to do any of those settings changes for my system, but it's been over a year since I set it up. I am at our other house for the next week, or I would check my settings to be sure.
> 
> You might also send an email to Jim Peterson at Lumagen asking him if the current RS-232 Control4 driver on the Lumagen website is the most current. When I was setting mine up, Jim sent me a slightly different version that was updated from what was on the website at the time.


Thanks, good idea. Jim was very responsive and helpful in tweaking the recent firmware to allow me to use virtual inputs 5-8 on my 4242


----------



## RapalloAV

netroamer said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, however, I have only 18ghz output cards. But, that seems like a step backwards. Are you suggesting giving up HDR, which requires 18ghz output, for the sake of stability?


I feel for you, I also cant get my 18GHz cards to play anything beyond [email protected] 4:2:2, it will only work @4K 50/60 4:2:0.
What display are you using?


----------



## G-Rex

MJV29 said:


> My understanding is that you only need 18ghz cards for Dolby Vision and for 60hz above 8 bits. You can still have HDR with 9ghz.


Due to a recent firmware update, MX160 also passes Dolby Vision with its 10.2gb chipset. I was pleasantly surprised when DV was added.


----------



## msleb

Alyaji said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Try this one and let me know if that works. I haven't tested it since I'm using serial to control the Pro from an Elan g! system.
> 
> 0000 006D 0000 0034 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 0060 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CD 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 00CD 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 0060 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CE 0010 01AD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CE 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 005F 0010 00CD 0010 00CE 0010 0026


Thanks for the code- this worked in the C4 IR driver for the Radiance! I sent a modified/updated driver to Jim at Lumagen, so hopefully future versions will include the HELP code


----------



## Alyaji

msleb said:


> Thanks for the code- this worked in the C4 IR driver for the Radiance! I sent a modified/updated driver to Jim at Lumagen, so hopefully future versions will include the HELP code


Great to hear


----------



## qualos

I am over the drop out issues - pulling the the 18 Ghz cards..


----------



## tspotorno

qualos said:


> I am over the drop out issues - pulling the the 18 Ghz cards..


I had a bad case of dropouts. Tried multiple cables no luck... I had given up on the device.

I talked to Lumagen and they asked me to send it in for testing. I received word a few days after they received it that they indeed found an issue with the box and replaced it. FANTASTIC customer service from Lumagen!!

Since I have received it back, no drop out issues at all. I was using the Monoprice active hdmi but switched to the RUIPRO fiber cables.


----------



## jrp

Note that for 4k24 you get 12-bit with 4:2:2 at 9 GHz. There is no reason to run faster for consumer sources, since all are 4:2:0. Said another way, you do not need the 18 GHz output card for 4k24 movies even for HDR.

The only movie I know about that is 4k60 HDR is "Billy Lynn's Long Half Time Walk." There may be others though. The Pro 9 GHz output can output 4k60 HDR as 8-bit 4:2:0 with dither and it looks very good. However, not as good a 4:2:2 12-bit. So for this movie running 18 GHz is an advantage.

We plan to support HLG. We do not have a schedule though.

We do not think Dolby is going to license us to support Dolby Vision. This is direct from Dolby Labs. So no plans to support Dolby Vision. Every UHD HDR disc is required to have HDR10. We are seeing HDR10 look amazing, especially with the HDR Intensity Mapping.

We plan to support HDR10+ with Dynamic Info frames. This should take HDR10's "Amazing" up a notch. The HDR Intensity Mapping algorithm has this built in, but there is going to be a lot of other work to get HDR10+. So, like HLG we do not have a schedule.

====

For RapalloAV's comments about 18 GHz not working:

I would like to point out that he tested the Radiance Pro he has with an 18 GHz TV, and it works fine with the TV at the full 18 GHz. We have also replaced the 18 GHz output card with no change. It is not the Pro that is causing his issue. Of course I fully sympathize with his desire to get 18 GHz working and continue to work with him to find a solution. We have even requested a sample X9000 from JVC to test here. He was kind enough to even ask if I minded him posting and of course I said go for it to see if anyone else can help. So If anyone has a X9000, and a Pro with 18 GHz output driving it, please let us know if 18 GHz is working for you and what cable brand, model, and length you are using from the projector.


----------



## scrowe

jrp said:


> I would like to point out that he tested the Radiance Pro he has with an 18 GHz TV, and it works fine with the TV at the full 18 GHz. We have also replaced the 18 GHz output card with no change. It is not the Pro that is causing his issue. Of course I fully sympathize with his desire to get 18 GHz working and continue to work with him to find a solution. We have even requested a sample X9000 from JVC to test here. He was kind enough to even ask if I minded him posting and of course I said go for it to see if anyone else can help. So If anyone has a X9000, and a Pro with 18 GHz output driving it, please let us know if 18 GHz is working for you and what cable brand, model, and length you are using from the projector.


Hi Jim, I have an X7000 with 18 GHz Output. Using Celerity 35m Fibre HDMI cable. I have SkyQ satellite which does 4k/10-bit and Dolby Digital, that never has any dropouts or issues. But with my Panasonic UBD-9000 UHD Player, I get occasional audio and video issues from both BD and UHD. Adding the 18 GHz output has not resolved these, but they're always been very random, intermittent and impossible to reproduce. I have emailed Lumagen support with more details, including info I have exchanged with Gordon, in case it helps narrow down any commonalities.


----------



## hifiaudio2

I asked this in the JVC thread and was sent here to ask... 

Is the latest high end Lumagen a definitive upgrade over the controls that we otherwise have access to for a "dead-on" calibration? Or does the whole HDR issue still leave a lot of question marks or make calibration even more of an art vs science than it was? Is it automated in both HDR and SDR calibration like the old Lumagen calibration sequence was? I have not followed what was going on with Lumagen for a long time.

Also... what software and meter is considered a "baseline" to get the most out of this? No reason to invest in the Lumagen if I have a meter that cripples it. I had Calman enthusiast in the past which I will need to renew. I also had the Colormunki (the original Spectro version, not the newer colorimeter) and then an i1 Display Pro... so nothing high end, although at least they can read low light levels.

So overall I am wondering how much of the issues / guesswork a new Lumagen would take out of a "perfect" grayscale / rec2020 / HDR calibration as well as a perfect SDR / REC709 without me having to wonder if I am doing it correctly, etc. The whole world of calibrating for HDR has thrown me for a loop.

Also.. Does the Lumagen perform the strip metadata feature and map HDR to SDR well? I plan on buying the Oppo 203 soon but if they dont improve what I hear is an imperfect mapping I would need something else to do that better.

Thanks for the advice! I also need to have a discussion offline about the pricing. I understand it to be quite high.


----------



## BrolicBeast

hifiaudio2 said:


> ...Does the Lumagen perform the strip metadata feature and map HDR to SDR well? I plan on buying the Oppo 203 soon but if they dont improve what I hear is an imperfect mapping I would need something else to do that better.




Yes, it does it quite well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mike_WI

hifiaudio2 said:


> I asked this in the JVC thread and was sent here to ask...
> 
> Is the latest high end Lumagen a definitive upgrade over the controls that we otherwise have access to for a "dead-on" calibration? Or does the whole HDR issue still leave a lot of question marks or make calibration even more of an art vs science than it was? Is it automated in both HDR and SDR calibration like the old Lumagen calibration sequence was? I have not followed what was going on with Lumagen for a long time.
> 
> Also... what software and meter is considered a "baseline" to get the most out of this? No reason to invest in the Lumagen if I have a meter that cripples it. I had Calman enthusiast in the past which I will need to renew. I also had the Colormunki (the original Spectro version, not the newer colorimeter) and then an i1 Display Pro... so nothing high end, although at least they can read low light levels.
> 
> So overall I am wondering how much of the issues / guesswork a new Lumagen would take out of a "perfect" grayscale / rec2020 / HDR calibration as well as a perfect SDR / REC709 without me having to wonder if I am doing it correctly, etc. The whole world of calibrating for HDR has thrown me for a loop.
> 
> Also.. Does the Lumagen perform the strip metadata feature and map HDR to SDR well? I plan on buying the Oppo 203 soon but if they dont improve what I hear is an imperfect mapping I would need something else to do that better.
> 
> Thanks for the advice! I also need to have a discussion offline about the pricing. I understand it to be quite high.


Note posts by @jrp above. He is the owner of Lumagen.
If you have a calibrator you can query him about cost and calibration also.

If you read few prior pages of comments you'll see how some have calibrated HDR.

Mike


----------



## Mike_WI

*Calibration timing and FW updates*

@jrp -

I know you can't predict every FW update content or timeline, but I was thinking of scheduling a calibration coming up.
Any good reasons to hold off on that for FW updates that might make that less optimal?


Thanks,

Mike


----------



## xtrips

Hello Jim,

I am writing this here to share it with the community.
I have so many questions, so I'll try to put them in order:

1- Do you know if the latest Calman 2017 beta is ready to calibrate the HDR10 profile on the Radiance?
2- How do you go about the Max luminance on projectors? It's a lot less than TVs so what are the guidelines?

About the combination of upscaling and calibration, I need some advice about best practice.
Considering my case, all medias that are not 4K use a 1080p max media streamer as a source and can only do 4:4:4, and all 4K and 4k HDR medias use an Oppo 203 as a source and I set it to output 4:2:0. Both sources go through the Radiance Pro and feed a Sony VPL-SW550ES projector.

I am mixed up about the functioning of the Radiance.
Say I have a Rec.709 CMS calibration loaded, it is applied to all Rec.709 material, right? Then how does the Radiance upscale that to 4K in order to feed the native 4K resolution of the Sony projector? Does that upscale impair the calibration? Anyhow if the Radiance does not upscale it than the Sony will, right? My guess is the Radiance will do a better job, right?

And about the 4K files, most of them are in 4:2:2 (I can see that when I check the Input signal in the Radiance). For the moment they are unwatchable. Too dark. But when I will run an HDR10 calibration, will that set the right dynamic range for my setup and render the dynamic range correctly? Will it do that automatically with the calibration? Or do I have to do something to set the Max and Min luminance?

More generally I don't understand why we have a Rec.709 calibration loaded if eventually all materials at all resolutions and color range are converted to 4K Rec. 2020?


Thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

xtrips said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> 1- Do you know if the latest Calman 2017 beta is ready to calibrate the HDR10 profile on the Radiance?
> 2- How do you go about the Max luminance on projectors? It's a lot less than TVs so what are the guidelines?
> 
> 
> 
> I am mixed up about the functioning of the Radiance.
> Say I have a Rec.709 CMS calibration loaded, it is applied to all Rec.709 material, right? Then how does the Radiance upscale that to 4K in order to feed the native 4K resolution of the Sony projector? Does that upscale impair the calibration? Anyhow if the Radiance does not upscale it than the Sony will, right? My guess is the Radiance will do a better job, right?
> 
> And about the 4K files, most of them are in 4:2:2 (I can see that when I check the Input signal in the Radiance). For the moment they are unwatchable. Too dark. But when I will run an HDR10 calibration, will that set the right dynamic range for my setup and render the dynamic range correctly? Will it do that automatically with the calibration? Or do I have to do something to set the Max and Min luminance?
> 
> More generally I don't understand why we have a Rec.709 calibration loaded if eventually all materials at all resolutions and color range are converted to 4K Rec. 2020?
> 
> 
> Thanks


I'm not Jim but let me answer.

1: Don't know...Spectracal are the guys who can tell you whether their software can calibrate UHD. I would suspect they can.

2: You set MAX light for the PJ by trying different values. I'd suggest that you start with 500NIT and work down to 350ish

Your question about scaling and colour formats shows a miss-understanding of what is going on. I hope this will clear it up.

the resolution, ie 4K or 1080P is a seperate issue to the colour space and format. If the scaler is set up correctly then all input signals will be upscaled to 4K by the Pro. This is the ideal as the upscaling in the Pro is superior to the Sony.

REC709 is the colourspace that the non UHD content is likely encoded with. ie BD and HD material. This is the colourspace it should be played back in regardless of resolution. ie you play a BD disc and it plays back at 4K from scaler with a LUT calibrating for REC709.

UHD HDR content probably looks too dark right nowas the tone mapping in the Sony will be compressing the SDR range making it unpleasant to watch. For a display like yours I'd set up the scaler so that the CMS bank it loads up for HDR/REC2020 content has it's Colourspace set to SDR/REC2020. This will send a flag to the Sony that should stop it from going in to its HDR mode but should set the colourspace in the projector to REC2020. You would then calibrate the LUT in the scaler for REC2020/GAMMA2.4 and afterwards turn on the Lumagen HDR tonemap in the scaler and stick in that 500 NIT starting point i suggested. Set the LUT in the HDR TONE MAP sectionof the CMS in scaler to SDR. Now you will have the scaler doing the tonemapping and you should get a vastly superior looking image. 

Hope that's a little help

Gordon


----------



## xtrips

Gordon Fraser said:


> REC709 is the colourspace that the non UHD content is likely encoded with. ie BD and HD material. This is the colourspace it should be played back in regardless of resolution. ie you play a BD disc and it plays back at 4K from scaler with a LUT calibrating for REC709.
> 
> Gordon


Of course! I must have been stoned when I wrote that. Obviously! Thanks.



Gordon Fraser said:


> UHD HDR content probably looks too dark right nowas the tone mapping in the Sony will be compressing the SDR range making it unpleasant to watch. For a display like yours I'd set up the scaler so that the CMS bank it loads up for HDR/REC2020 content has it's Colourspace set to SDR/REC2020. This will send a flag to the Sony that should stop it from going in to its HDR mode but should set the colourspace in the projector to REC2020. You would then calibrate the LUT in the scaler for REC2020/GAMMA2.4 and afterwards turn on the Lumagen HDR tonemap in the scaler and stick in that 500 NIT starting point i suggested. Set the LUT in the HDR TONE MAP sectionof the CMS in scaler to SDR. Now you will have the scaler doing the tonemapping and you should get a vastly superior looking image.
> Gordon


On the other hand, that one I will have to read several times, slooooowly. You lost me there. I will try to make sense of it, or I will come back with more questions.
Maybe if you start from the end? Like explaining why I have to "trick" the projector?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

When you send UHD HDR to the projector it will automatically load up its HDR EOTF file and the contrast control will now say HDR on it. This is the Sony version of tone-mapping. IE trying to fit the dynamic range of the content in to the dynamic range the projector is capable of. You don't want that to happen. You want the tone-mapping to be done in the Lumagen and for that to work optimally with your projector you need to make sure the projector stays in a NON HDR mode. This is done by altering the COLOURSPACE setting in the CMS settings of the scaler. The COLOURSPACE setting is currently by default at AUTO so whatever comes in is what it signals on the output. You want to change that so that on the CMS bank you are going to assign for REC2020/HDR in the scaler the COLOURSPACE value is changed from AUTO to SDR/REC2020 or even SDR./REC709. I'd actually probably go with the latter but I use different calibration software to you so I advised what i think will most likely allow you to get a decent working result.


----------



## xtrips

Gordon Fraser said:


> When you send UHD HDR to the projector it will automatically load up its HDR EOTF file and the contrast control will now say HDR on it. This is the Sony version of tone-mapping. IE trying to fit the dynamic range of the content in to the dynamic range the projector is capable of. You don't want that to happen. You want the tone-mapping to be done in the Lumagen and for that to work optimally with your projector you need to make sure the projector stays in a NON HDR mode. This is done by altering the COLOURSPACE setting in the CMS settings of the scaler. The COLOURSPACE setting is currently by default at AUTO so whatever comes in is what it signals on the output. You want to change that so that on the CMS bank you are going to assign for REC2020/HDR in the scaler the COLOURSPACE value is changed from AUTO to SDR/REC2020 or even SDR./REC709. I'd actually probably go with the latter but I use different calibration software to you so I advised what i think will most likely allow you to get a decent working result.


So, if I understood you correctly, at the time of calibration, although I will use the HDR10 Rec.2020 workflow in Calman, the Radiance will be set to SDR/Rec.2020 all the time, and the HDR flag will never light up on the projector, right? Nevertheless, when done, I will have an HDR calibration?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

As i said, I do not use Calman. 

However, you do not want to calibrate for HDR REC2020. You want to calibrate for REC2020 gamma 2.4 

If you do this, then turn on the TONE MAP feature in the scaler you will have a REC2020 HDR tone mapped image on your projector.

Gordon


----------



## mhafner

jrp said:


> We plan to support HDR10+ with Dynamic Info frames. This should take HDR10's "Amazing" up a notch. The HDR Intensity Mapping algorithm has this built in, but there is going to be a lot of other work to get HDR10+.


Is HDR10+ possible without HDMI 2.1?


----------



## Wookii

xtrips said:


> So, if I understood you correctly, at the time of calibration, although I will use the HDR10 Rec.2020 workflow in Calman, the Radiance will be set to SDR/Rec.2020 all the time, and the HDR flag will never light up on the projector, right? Nevertheless, when done, I will have an HDR calibration?


As Gordon says, you need to calibrate for SDR Rec2020 in Calman.

So you will want to select the standard 3D LUT workflow, and select Rec2020 as the target colour space, and 2.4 (or perhaps BT1886 - not sure at this stage which one will work better) as the target gamma.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mhafner said:


> Is HDR10+ possible without HDMI 2.1?


I believe that supporting one feature of HDMI2.1 allows a product to differentiate itself as HDMI2.1 compliant even though it amy not support all features.....pretty much like how a Radiance XD with 3D update applied could be called HDMI1.4 compliant even though it only had HDMI1.1 chipsets internally.

So it will be able to have_ that_ feature of HDMI2.1hopefully...and who knows, maybe even others...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Wookii said:


> As Gordon says, you need to calibrate for SDR Rec2020 in Calman.
> 
> So you will want to select the standard 3D LUT workflow, and select Rec2020 as the target colour space, and 2.4 (or perhaps BT1886 - not sure at this stage which one will work better) as the target gamma.


yeah i need to do some tests on bt1886 as well.


----------



## MJV29

Any news on the "how to manual" with Lightspace and Radiance pro?


----------



## Kris Deering

xtrips said:


> So, if I understood you correctly, at the time of calibration, although I will use the HDR10 Rec.2020 workflow in Calman, the Radiance will be set to SDR/Rec.2020 all the time, and the HDR flag will never light up on the projector, right? Nevertheless, when done, I will have an HDR calibration?


It is clear from your posts that you have a lot of studying to do on color science and calibration in general. If you don't understand the basics of color science (which is pretty obvious here) than trying to do a calibration with something like the Radiance isn't a good starting tool for learning. You'd be better off hiring a calibrator and having them "teach" you. Otherwise I see you getting really lost and probably not getting the results you should be getting leading to frustration.


----------



## sillysally

Also beware if you try and calibrate ST.2084/2020 using auto Calman and the Pro as a patch source it simply will not work. The issue is with Calman, there is a major sync issue with Calman and the Pro, plus as Calman says its a work in progress.
Using Lightspace is better than Calman but still not very good, one of the issues is you can't use the Pro's 21 point grayscale settings because of how Lightspace will override the manual settings you did in the Pro and install there own setting for the 21 point grayscale. So that means you have to set the 21 point grayscale after the 3DLUT is made, and then be very careful that you don't mess up the 3DLUT's Gamut. 

I have been calibrating the RGB high/low warm settings in the 2015 EF9500 OLED service menu and only using the 2 point grayscale settings in the EF9500 menu for over a year now. Bypassing the Pro, that's the only way I can get a decent PQ for ST.2084/2020. 

However the new 2017 LG OLED should work much better with the Pro and Lightspace because of the better controls and much higher nits, and I would like to see Lightspace not over write the grayscale setting in the Pro. Kinda like it does with the eecolor box.

ss


----------



## jaychatbonneau

Does anyone here know if the Radiance can output full side-by-side 3D instead of just half side-by-side? The manual just says side-by-side. Thanks!


----------



## henrich3

RapalloAV said:


> I feel for you, I also cant get my 18GHz cards to play anything beyond [email protected] 4:2:2, it will only work @4K 50/60 4:2:0.





jrp said:


> For RapalloAV's comments about 18 GHz not working:
> I would like to point out that he tested the Radiance Pro he has with an 18 GHz TV, and it works fine with the TV at the full 18 GHz. We have also replaced the 18 GHz output card with no change. It is not the Pro that is causing his issue. Of course I fully sympathize with his desire to get 18 GHz working and continue to work with him to find a solution. We have even requested a sample X9000 from JVC to test here. He was kind enough to even ask if I minded him posting and of course I said go for it to see if anyone else can help. So If anyone has a X9000, and a Pro with 18 GHz output driving it, please let us know if 18 GHz is working for you and what cable brand, model, and length you are using from the projector.


JVC RS600/X9000 pj's use different HDMI chipsets on their HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 inputs. The JVC's HDMI 2 input is optimized for slower legacy sources when the _HDMI 2 EDID_ is set to "B" in the JVC's Input Signal menu. For an 18 GHz source, I would try the JVC's HDMI 1 input first, and if that doesn't work try HDMI 2 with the _HDMI 2 EDID_ set to "A".


----------



## collinp

jrp said:


> For RapalloAV's comments about 18 GHz not working:
> 
> I would like to point out that he tested the Radiance Pro he has with an 18 GHz TV, and it works fine with the TV at the full 18 GHz. We have also replaced the 18 GHz output card with no change. It is not the Pro that is causing his issue. Of course I fully sympathize with his desire to get 18 GHz working and continue to work with him to find a solution. We have even requested a sample X9000 from JVC to test here. He was kind enough to even ask if I minded him posting and of course I said go for it to see if anyone else can help. So If anyone has a X9000, and a Pro with 18 GHz output driving it, please let us know if 18 GHz is working for you and what cable brand, model, and length you are using from the projector.


It seems like a lot of people are using a Radiance Pro / JVC combo. I'm surprised he's having issues. This AV stuff is fun when it's all working but when it doesn't work right it can be endlessly frustrating. 

Personally, I've had good luck with a 50 foot Monoprice optical cable : SlimRun AV HDR Cable for HDMI Enabled Devices, [email protected], YUV4:4:4, 50ft. It seems like a good cable at a reasonable price. Nice and thin too. I'm using an RS520 (i.e. X7500) which is a pretty similar model. JVC has some very long lock times, but that is with every source and cable I've tried so that's definitely not due to the Radiance or the cable. I have been running at 3840x2160 60Hz 4:2:2 (12 bit). I also briefly tried 3840x2160 60Hz 4:4:4 (8bit). I am using output 4 of the Radiance Pro 4446 and input 1 on the RS520.


----------



## dlinsley

+1. I also use a JVC RS600 (same as X9000) and the Lumagen/JVC status reports 4k60 is working at 422 and 12bpp when watching via a Roku Ultra. My Radiance 18G output card goes via a 6' Monoprice premium certified cable to an Anthem MRX1120 receiver and then via a Monoprice 40' Cabernet to the JVC, though I've also connected directly to the projector via the 40' and it has been fine at 4k60 too.


----------



## BrolicBeast

A solution for those pondering 16:9 or 2:35, and want the best of both worlds. I just finished setting this up yesterday, and have a video forthcoming on the most seamless way to set up and control:

So, I love 16:9, and currently enjoy a fairly large screen in that aspect ratio; however, if the rear row is reclined while the front row is straight up, the 16:9 image is not viewable. So, solution? I raised the 2:35 image to the top of the screen (which at 12' wide, is still a massive image and not too high) by following Lumagen Tech Tip 16, but setting bottom to 24% in mask/shrink menu, and then saved that style, labeling it "Guests" I then saved this configuration to memory C for all my inputs, and programmed my remote to activate memory C by touching the "Guest Mode" indicator i created for the touch screen. To go back to joyous 16:9, I just hit the "Family Mode" indicator, and it goes back to memory A. This is very different from simply zooming in and out because the new memory shifts the 2:35 image to the top of the screen, AND engages NLS so all content fits into the 2:35 image window--even 16:9. A critical component for movie nights (the lens memory switching method is too clunky for my tastes--especially with guests).

This has been really seamless, and I have plans to get a screen with bottom-up motorized masking. Until then, I'm going to order masking panels to cover the 24% of screen height that requires masking below the 2:35 image. When expecting guests, I'll simply insert the magnetic masking and it will be a 2:35 theater....and as soon as the guests leave, I hit family mode, and It's back to the full screen glory!

Yet another reason I love this product. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Wookii

Has anyone managed to get Calman to generate a Rec2020SDR BT1886/2.4 3DLUT with the Pro yet?

I tried a couple of times last night, and it comes out a mess, the colour checker is all over the place. I appreciate the errors on the primaries and secondaries will be massive due to not being able to reach the full Rec2020 gamut, but I kind of expected the colour checker patches to still be accurate. The greyscale comes out a complete mess also.

I may be missing a change I need to make in the settings (stim or saturation levels perhaps)?


----------



## loggeo

Wookii said:


> Has anyone managed to get Calman to generate a Rec2020SDR BT1886/2.4 3DLUT with the Pro yet?
> 
> I tried a couple of times last night, and it comes out a mess, the colour checker is all over the place. I appreciate the errors on the primaries and secondaries will be massive due to not being able to reach the full Rec2020 gamut, but I kind of expected the colour checker patches to still be accurate. The greyscale comes out a complete mess also.
> 
> I may be missing a change I need to make in the settings (stim or saturation levels perhaps)?


No it does not work. I am trying to convince Steve from Lightspace to give us an option for rec.2020 / gamma 2.4 but so far he does not think it will be worth it and to be honest rec.2020 and gamma 2.4 doesn't make much sense.


----------



## Wookii

loggeo said:


> . . . and to be honest rec.2020 and gamma 2.4 doesn't make much sense.


It does if you want to use HDR Intensity Mapping with a properly calibrated gamut.

EDIT: Or are you referring specifically to the choice of 2.4 gamma over BT1886 gamma?

EDIT 2: I had assumed Lightspace could already run any choice of gamut with any choice of gamma for 3D LUTs?


----------



## loggeo

Wookii said:


> It does if you want to use HDR Intensity Mapping with a properly calibrated gamut.
> 
> EDIT: Or are you referring specifically to the choice of 2.4 gamma over BT1886 gamma?
> 
> EDIT 2: I had assumed Lightspace could already run any choice of gamut with any choice of gamma for 3D LUTs?


No I could not find one. There are plenty other source profiles like st.2084-rec.709, st.2084-dci etc but nothing for rec.2020 gamma 2.4 or 1886.
My understanding is that there is no communication between Lumagen and software companies about this.

EDIT: It looks like UHD 2020 source profile should do the trick. As Steve (who is always very helpful) has confirmed it has a rec.2020 colour and gamma 2.4 default value.


----------



## alex_t

loggeo said:


> No I could not find one. There are plenty other source profiles like st.2084-rec.709, st.2084-dci etc but nothing for rec.2020 gamma 2.4 or 1886.
> My understanding is that there is no communication between Lumagen and software companies about this.
> 
> EDIT: It looks like UHD 2020 source profile should do the trick. As Steve (who is always very helpful) has confirmed it has a rec.2020 colour and gamma 2.4 default value.


Hello,

In lightspace cms, UHD 2020 target is REC2020 with gamma 2.4. You can also select BT1886 and enter xy values for REC2020 primaries and you will get REC2020 with gamma BT1886 (custom colour space).


----------



## loggeo

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> In lightspace cms, UHD 2020 target is REC2020 with gamma 2.4. You can also select BT1886 and enter xy values for REC2020 primaries and you will get REC2020 with gamma BT1886 (custom colour space).


Thank you! I had already edited my post. I wasn't sure. Did you try it Alex? If so did you get good results before adjusting intensity mapping?


----------



## alex_t

loggeo said:


> Thank you! I had already edited my post. I wasn't sure. Did you try it Alex? If so did you get good results before adjusting intensity mapping?


UHD 2020 gives excellent results with HDR intensity mapping. On my setup I prefer UHD 2020 but with gamma = 2.2. I will test BT1886 with REC2020 primaries but I don't know when at the moment.


----------



## Kris Deering

I was told from Lumagen that the baseline for the intensity mapping is a 2.4 power gamma curve. This should be the foundation for their intensity mapping. From there you can adjust the gamma look with the gamma selection in the user tweak settings. Moving the number higher makes it a higher gamma (darker) and moving it lower makes a lower gamma (brighter).


----------



## Kris Deering

Gamma adjustment using the 21 point had never effected my black or white clipping points. Perfect grayscale every time I use it.


----------



## sillysally

Wookii said:


> Has anyone managed to get Calman to generate a Rec2020SDR BT1886/2.4 3DLUT with the Pro yet?
> 
> I tried a couple of times last night, and it comes out a mess, the colour checker is all over the place. I appreciate the errors on the primaries and secondaries will be massive due to not being able to reach the full Rec2020 gamut, but I kind of expected the colour checker patches to still be accurate. The greyscale comes out a complete mess also.
> 
> I may be missing a change I need to make in the settings (stim or saturation levels perhaps)?


Yes check out my last post.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-56.html#post53693969

Using Lightspace, the only format that works is UHD/2020. As described below in post's.

ss


----------



## Mark_H

Anybody seeing startup problems since the two most recent (HDR Intensity Mapping) firmwares? Now I quite often get a black screen, or a corrupted screen, requiring me to restart the Lumagen to reset?


----------



## M_Lincoln

Mark_H said:


> Anybody seeing startup problems since the two most recent (HDR Intensity Mapping) firmwares? Now I quite often get a black screen, or a corrupted screen, requiring me to restart the Lumagen to reset?


Yes, not every day but it is happening, unit freezes up and requires removal of power to correct.


----------



## tjhook25

Mark_H said:


> Anybody seeing startup problems since the two most recent (HDR Intensity Mapping) firmwares? Now I quite often get a black screen, or a corrupted screen, requiring me to restart the Lumagen to reset?


I'm having the same issues with 2 different projectors. I have to shut unit off then turn back on constantly.


----------



## tjhook25

M_Lincoln said:


> Yes, not every day but it is happening, unit freezes up and requires removal of power to correct.


Yes I'm having this happen on 2 projectors. I constantly have to turn unit off then works when I turn back on.


----------



## Grifo

Me too!!! And have issues on non processed outputs as well on my 4449..


----------



## Grifo

Also have many audio issues but think tohose ones are related to oppo 203.. what a mess!


----------



## telem

No problem with a VW5000ES and I am watching every day.


----------



## mskreis

I've encountered a couple of issues with my JVC. With Directv as input I see noise along the the bottom of the image - I've had to enable masking on my projector for the first time. Also, when upscaling blurays to 4K I frequently get tearing along the right side of the image - it corrects when I change input to another source and return to the Oppo.


----------



## Roland Janus

*Radiance (Pro) Tutorial*

I was actually hesitating to get myself a Radiance Pro, not because of lack of posibilities or features, but because of the shear amount of complexitiy related to it.
What finally changed my mind was the addition of the tone mapping Feature and auto calibration.

But I still haven't done anything with it because I still have a hard time to get me through all those of buzz words/terms.
There may be people enjoing playing and tunning with all the options for hours and days, me on the other hand don't want to unless I Need to.
I want to watch movies the best way possible with as less effort as possible.

Looking at the "Manuals" available today (Raidance, Chromapure) , it is IMO just (still) to complicated considering that the hardware is there, the software is there, why is it so complicated to make this easy?
Let's compare to e.g.audyssey calibration: Put a mic at 8 positions,click next a few times, done.
Now, this may never be possible with Video calibration but maybe it can be made easier for the noobie?

Hence the title of this topic.
Instead of going through dozens of text based instructions, how about a Video based tutorial? A Video says more than a thousand words.
I'm tallking about starting with Basics, like Basic adjustments on the projector, disable that, enable that, placing the placing the measurement device, select this, run that etc., put all the steps together.

I'm fully aware that this is quite a bit of work, but just imagine if putting this may improve the result on existing users or convince a few more to get themselves a radiance just because it isn't that scarry anymore to get yourself into video calibration?

What do you say Jim? 

cheers, roland


----------



## dlinsley

I've not had any problems with the new releases yet. Also, glad to see genlock works well with the JVCs again!


----------



## BrolicBeast

Roland Janus said:


> I was actually hesitating to get myself a Radiance Pro, not because of lack of posibilities or features, but because of the shear amount of complexitiy related to it.
> What finally changed my mind was the addition of the tone mapping Feature and auto calibration.
> 
> But I still haven't done anything with it because I still have a hard time to get me through all those of buzz words/terms.
> There may be people enjoing playing and tunning with all the options for hours and days, me on the other hand don't want to unless I Need to.
> I want to watch movies the best way possible with as less effort as possible.
> 
> Looking at the "Manuals" available today (Raidance, Chromapure) , it is IMO just (still) to complicated considering that the hardware is there, the software is there, why is it so complicated to make this easy?
> Let's compare to e.g.audyssey calibration: Put a mic at 8 positions,click next a few times, done.
> Now, this may never be possible with Video calibration but maybe it can be made easier for the noobie?
> 
> Hence the title of this topic.
> Instead of going through dozens of text based instructions, how about a Video based tutorial? A Video says more than a thousand words.
> I'm tallking about starting with Basics, like Basic adjustments on the projector, disable that, enable that, placing the placing the measurement device, select this, run that etc., put all the steps together.
> 
> I'm fully aware that this is quite a bit of work, but just imagine if putting this may improve the result on existing users or convince a few more to get themselves a radiance just because it isn't that scarry anymore to get yourself into video calibration?
> 
> What do you say Jim?
> 
> cheers, roland


Wasn't going to post about this just yet, but since the question was asked explicitly, I'll share: I'm currently working on a video instruction manual for the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## Roland Janus

BrolicBeast said:


> Wasn't going to post about this just yet, but since the question was asked explicitly, I'll share: I'm currently working on a video instruction manual for the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Glad to hear. what will you cover?


----------



## BrolicBeast

Roland Janus said:


> Glad to hear. what will you cover?


The full Lumagen manual, cover to cover. Essentially, a video walkthrough of each section. Going to have a certified calibrator over for the calibration pieces once the dust settles on HDR calibration (or once it gets close to settling), as this is intended to be a reference. Will be doing 3 different calibration scenarios there...1) 4k flat panel, 2) 4k on 110" wide projection screen, and 3) 4k on 144" wide projection screen area (black level and overall brightness realities differ with each small/medium/large scenario and should be accounted for).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## Roland Janus

BrolicBeast said:


> The full Lumagen manual, cover to cover. Essentially, a video walkthrough of each section. Going to have a certified calibrator over for the calibration pieces once the dust settles on HDR calibration (or once it gets close to settling), as this is intended to be a reference. Will be doing 3 different calibration scenarios there...1) 4k flat panel, 2) 4k on 110" wide projection screen, and 3) 4k on 144" wide projection screen area (black level and overall brightness realities differ with each small/medium/large scenario and should be accounted for).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Fantastic!


----------



## GGA

BrolicBeast said:


> Wasn't going to post about this just yet, but since the question was asked explicitly, I'll share: I'm currently working on a video instruction manual for the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Super Terrific! Any estimate of completion date?


----------



## BrolicBeast

GGA said:


> Super Terrific! Any estimate of completion date?


Unfortunately, no...but if you have specific functionality questions, I can post quick videos on Instagram here: www.instagram.com/brolicmedia 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## darrellh44

BrolicBeast said:


> The full Lumagen manual, cover to cover. Essentially, a video walkthrough of each section. Going to have a certified calibrator over for the calibration pieces once the dust settles on HDR calibration (or once it gets close to settling), as this is intended to be a reference. Will be doing 3 different calibration scenarios there...1) 4k flat panel, 2) 4k on 110" wide projection screen, and 3) 4k on 144" wide projection screen area (black level and overall brightness realities differ with each small/medium/large scenario and should be accounted for).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


This is great. Thanks for all your hard work. Do you know which calibration software packages will be covered?


----------



## BrolicBeast

darrellh44 said:


> This is great. Thanks for all your hard work. Do you know which calibration software packages will be covered?


No prob....undecided at the moment... Actually, might do a calibration G2G where folks can bring their own laptops/software to calibrate on the Pro using same meters (mine) to contribute to the video manual. If anyone is in (or close to the DC/MD/VA area, and would be interested, please PM me. I'll ask around as the time gets closer. We're at least a couple months away right now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062317*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 062317*
(replaced 062217 due to small osd issue) 
Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output. 
Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work. 
Improvements to HDR intensity mapping. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Is there a way we can sign up to get notified of updates?
Since not tied into a network notification, need to check AVS or the primary support site to see it.

Mike


EDIT
7/2/17 6:30pm - That FW just left screen (after I just updated it on Lumagen). FW must have been pulled for another one?


----------



## mhafner

Mark_H said:


> Anybody seeing startup problems since the two most recent (HDR Intensity Mapping) firmwares? Now I quite often get a black screen, or a corrupted screen, requiring me to restart the Lumagen to reset?


My Panasonic UHD player is not responsive after booting and has to be powered down and up again after the rest of the chain is working.


----------



## sjschaff

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 062317*
> (replaced 062217 due to small osd issue)
> Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output.
> Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work.
> Improvements to HDR intensity mapping.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
> 
> 
> Is there a way we can sign up to get notified of updates?
> Since not tied into a network notification, need to check AVS or the primary support site to see it.
> 
> Mike


Try this site. https://www.changedetection.com/ 
I haven't used it for the specific Lumagen page http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates but it might well work.


----------



## netroamer

The 062317 update has been removed from the Lumagen site.


----------



## collinp

netroamer said:


> The 062317 update has been removed from the Lumagen site.


I wonder why. I have it on mine and haven't noticed any problems.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062317*



netroamer said:


> The 062317 update has been removed from the Lumagen site.





collinp said:


> I wonder why. I have it on mine and haven't noticed any problems.


Saw that and edited my post.
I have installed but not used yet.

Mike


----------



## Gordon Fraser

some folk are having problems with it. they are working on fix


----------



## Theaterfreak360

*RS620 and Lumagen 4446 (all 18Ghz Cards) Calibration*

Hey guys. I have the opportunity to have my 620 and Lumagen 4446 (with all 18 GHz input and output cards) calibrated. I have not used the projector just yet. I put roughly two hours on it to ensure everything worked as it should, but that was about it. It will be set up this week. The screen I have is a 152"W x 66"H / 2.35 AR / 1.5 Gain / Microperforated Stewart Ultramatte 150. My theater is still not quite finished, but it's getting closer to finally having everything installed. 

I'm not up to date on the best way to calibrate the projector and Lumagen to take advantage of HDR and I was hoping to get some insight on having this done. The person performing the calibration recommended the following:

"I would propose calibrating your projector primarily via the Lumagen, apart from setting peak levels, black level and very basic grayscale tracking in the JVC. 

Most of the calibration would be done via a 1D/3D LUT, with the Lumagen taking the incoming 4K Rec 2020 HDR signal and converting it to 4K Rec 2020 SDR. The projector would receive a 4K/2020/SDR signal that emulates HDR with proper tone mapping, via the Lumagen Radiance Pro's Intensity Mapping feature.

A separate LUT would be calibrated for 1080p SDR/Rec 709 for HD sources. The Lumagen would handle signal type recognition and proper routing of the signal to the projector based on whether it was HD Rec 709 or 4K HDR content.

If you have a link to the current state of play regarding the use of the Radiance Pro to maintain the use of the dynamic iris on the projector, please send that my way and I will research that further."

What do you guys think?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Theaterfreak360 said:


> Hey guys. I have the opportunity to have my 620 and Lumagen 4446 (with all 18 GHz input and output cards) calibrated. I have not used the projector just yet. I put roughly two hours on it to ensure everything worked as it should, but that was about it. It will be set up this week. The screen I have is a 152"W x 66"H / 2.35 AR / 1.5 Gain / Microperforated Stewart Ultramatte 150. My theater is still not quite finished, but it's getting closer to finally having everything installed.
> 
> I'm not up to date on the best way to calibrate the projector and Lumagen to take advantage of HDR and I was hoping to get some insight on having this done. The person performing the calibration recommended the following:
> 
> "I would propose calibrating your projector primarily via the Lumagen, apart from setting peak levels, black level and very basic grayscale tracking in the JVC.
> 
> Most of the calibration would be done via a 1D/3D LUT, with the Lumagen taking the incoming 4K Rec 2020 HDR signal and converting it to 4K Rec 2020 SDR. The projector would receive a 4K/2020/SDR signal that emulates HDR with proper tone mapping, via the Lumagen Radiance Pro's Intensity Mapping feature.
> 
> A separate LUT would be calibrated for 1080p SDR/Rec 709 for HD sources. The Lumagen would handle signal type recognition and proper routing of the signal to the projector based on whether it was HD Rec 709 or 4K HDR content.
> 
> If you have a link to the current state of play regarding the use of the Radiance Pro to maintain the use of the dynamic iris on the projector, please send that my way and I will research that further."
> 
> What do you guys think?


Yep that's how i'd do it. Hopefully the calibrator has experience of the Pro and carrying out this type of calibration.


----------



## collinp

Theaterfreak360 said:


> "If you have a link to the current state of play regarding the use of the Radiance Pro to maintain the use of the dynamic iris on the projector, please send that my way and I will research that further."


The dynamic iris is only disabled when the projector is in HDR mode. With this sort of calibration the projector will always be in SDR mode and the Lumagen will do the HDR mapping. You will have full use of the dynamic iris with this calibration.

This is a "your mileage may vary" type feature. It undoubtedly improves dark scenes (space scenes look awesome), but it changes relatively slowly and in distinct steps. You can see it working as the contrast of the signal changes. Many people like it. I personally leave it off. You'll have to try it and see what you think.


----------



## collinp

collinp said:


> The dynamic iris is only disabled when the projector is in HDR mode. With this sort of calibration the projector will always be in SDR mode and the Lumagen will do the HDR mapping. You will have full use of the dynamic iris with this calibration.
> 
> This is a "your mileage may vary" type feature. It undoubtedly improves dark scenes (space scenes look awesome), but it changes relatively slowly and in distinct steps. You can see it working as the contrast of the signal changes. Many people like it. I personally leave it off. You'll have to try it and see what you think.


Not to go too far off topic here, but this write up goes into some great detail on the JVC DI function and may be of some interest to you and your calibrator JVC Dynamic Iris Writeup.


----------



## Theaterfreak360

collinp said:


> Not to go too far off topic here, but this write up goes into some great detail on the JVC DI function and may be of some interest to you and your calibrator JVC Dynamic Iris Writeup.


Thanks for providing the link and the insight on the dynamic iris. I will definitely share this information with my calibrator.


----------



## Theaterfreak360

Gordon Fraser said:


> Yep that's how i'd do it. Hopefully the calibrator has experience of the Pro and carrying out this type of calibration.


Thanks for the reply, Gordon! This makes me more confident that my calibrator is on the right track with his calibration recommendations.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062517*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 062517*
(replaced 062217-062317) 
Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output. 
Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work. 
Improvements to HDR intensity mapping. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062617*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 062617*
(replaced 062217-062517) 
Fixed a display EDID issue that would prevent Pro from automatically using an 18Ghz output mode for some displays (Sony5000 projector being notable case) so the Pro would use 4k60 with 420 color when it should of used 4k60 422. 
Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output. 
Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work. 
Improvements to HDR intensity mapping. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

What's the deal with this latest bunch of firmwares? Can't recall seeing so many replacements so quickly. Not sure I want to update.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW updates 062217-062617*



Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 062317*
> (replaced 062217 due to *small osd issue*)
> Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output.
> Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work.
> Improvements to HDR intensity mapping.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
> 
> 
> Is there a way we can sign up to get notified of updates?
> Since not tied into a network notification, need to check AVS or the primary support site to see it.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> EDIT
> 7/2/17 6:30pm - That FW just left screen (after I just updated it on Lumagen). FW must have been pulled for another one?





Gordon Fraser said:


> some folk are having problems with it. they are working on fix





Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 062517*
> (replaced 062217-062317)
> *Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output. *
> Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work.
> Improvements to HDR intensity mapping.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware





Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 062617*
> (replaced 062217-062517)
> *Fixed a display EDID issue* that would prevent Pro from automatically using an 18Ghz output mode for some displays (Sony5000 projector being notable case) so the Pro would use 4k60 with 420 color when it should of used 4k60 422.
> Fixed an issue that could sometimes cause of loss of video output.
> Fixed a bug causing output mask not to work.
> Improvements to HDR intensity mapping.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware





SJHT said:


> What's the deal with this latest bunch of firmwares? Can't recall seeing so many replacements so quickly. Not sure I want to update.


Looks like small system specific issues.
I have been so busy with outside activities that I have updated FW without viewing content after FW update.
Hopefully all works.
Watching last two episodes of Game of Thrones Season 6 tonight to prep for new season.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 070117*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 070117*
Fixed up auto input selection which is enabled and configured in the menu under *Other: I/O Setup: Auto Select* . 
Added Dobly Atmos flag to the global common audio formats (if you've already enabled common audio formats with "menu 0943" the Atmos flag will now be present). 
Not all audio sources needed to see the Atmos flag but some sources do. 
Fixed up a bug in 062617 which could cause no video on output. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## dinamigym

Not sure if it's just me but I've had major sync issues with my 5000 since both the 6/26 and 7/1 updates. Rolled back to 6/1 and everything appears back to normal. I have a 4242 all 18g ports.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## netroamer

dinamigym said:


> Not sure if it's just me but I've had major sync issues with my 5000 since both the 6/26 and 7/1 updates. Rolled back to 6/1 and everything appears back to normal. I have a 4242 all 18g ports.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I assume you mean audio/video lipsync. I just tried to play a 4k hdr stream from Fandango and the audio was more than a minute behind the video.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

netroamer said:


> I assume you mean audio/video lipsync. I just tried to play a 4k hdr stream from Fandango and the audio was more than a minute behind the video.


no i think he meant syncing of video to the VW5000


----------



## dinamigym

Gordon Fraser said:


> no i think he meant syncing of video to the VW5000



Yes...sorry if I was confusing yes could not sync video until I rolled back to 6/1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

*Video Syn Problem*



dinamigym said:


> Not sure if it's just me but I've had major sync issues with my 5000 since both the 6/26 and 7/1 updates. Rolled back to 6/1 and everything appears back to normal. I have a 4242 all 18g ports.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





dinamigym said:


> Yes...sorry if I was confusing yes could not sync video until I rolled back to 6/1
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could not video-sync at all or "problems" syncing?
Describe the problem(s).

Mike


----------



## dinamigym

Mike_WI said:


> Could not video-sync at all or "problems" syncing?
> 
> Describe the problem(s).
> 
> 
> 
> Mike




Video sync was very difficult and often times required turning everything off and on several times to obtain. Even once sync occurred image would flash in and out quite often. Then if I tried to change sources from say KScape Strato to Comcast the video sync again required turning things on and off several times and even then left me without image for long periods of time. I'm talking long enough to where 5000 would go to standby mode.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## msleb

dinamigym said:


> Video sync was very difficult and often times required turning everything off and on several times to obtain. Even once sync occurred image would flash in and out quite often. Then if I tried to change sources from say KScape Strato to Comcast the video sync again required turning things on and off several times and even then left me without image for long periods of time. I'm talking long enough to where 5000 would go to standby mode.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Has anyone installed the 070117 firmware and had NO sync issues, especially with a 5000ES? I was about to install tonight, can understand that some people might have issues, but would feel better if others have had uneventful installations


----------



## Mike_WI

msleb said:


> Has anyone installed the 070117 firmware and had NO sync issues, especially with a 5000ES? I was about to install tonight, can understand that some people might have issues, but would feel better if others have had uneventful installations


I installed it.
Gear in signature.
Sync takes a while with my chain (Oppo 203 -> Lumagen -> JVC) but it worked.
I have also (somewhat) recently updated the FW in JVC RS520 to latest and updated to latest Oppo FW.

Mike


----------



## msleb

Mike_WI said:


> I installed it.
> Gear in signature.
> Sync takes a while with my chain (Oppo 203 -> Lumagen -> JVC) but it worked.
> I have also (somewhat) recently updated the FW in JVC RS520 to latest and updated to latest Oppo FW.
> 
> Mike


Thanks Mike, it sounds like you made a few changes at once? Is the increase sync/handshake time notably longer with current firmware? I have Oppo 203 --> Lumagen --> Sony 5000.

Sounds like there might be a few more kinks to work out?


----------



## Mike_WI

msleb said:


> Thanks Mike, it sounds like you made a few changes at once? Is the increase sync/handshake time notably longer with current firmware? I have Oppo 203 --> Lumagen --> Sony 5000.
> 
> Sounds like there might be a few more kinks to work out?


Clarification: I haven't noted any new syncing problems with latest FW.
Was just trying to point out the many links in the chain for most of us -- and in my case different FW updates.
The JVC sync time seems long. Not sure if the newest JVC FW fixed that.
The Lumagen FW seems stable for me.


----------



## jabz

Hi, Im considering getting the Lumagen Pro for my 4K setup as I have an A-Lens and because of the recent HDR intensity mapping capabilities, also would like to get the best out of my VW520 HDR capability.
I have an Xrite i1 Pro that I purchased from Amazon a couple years back and Chromapure 2.x with Autocal licence. I am not sure if I should upgrade to Chromapure 3.x or get LightSpace as that has been talked about a bit in this forum. Does LightSpace have an Autocalibration feature? There's several versions, which version works with the Radiance Pro?

Thanks


----------



## sillysally

jabz said:


> Hi, Im considering getting the Lumagen Pro for my 4K setup as I have an A-Lens and because of the recent HDR intensity mapping capabilities, also would like to get the best out of my VW520 HDR capability.
> I have an Xrite i1 Pro that I purchased from Amazon a couple years back and Chromapure 2.x with Autocal licence. I am not sure if I should upgrade to Chromapure 3.x or get LightSpace as that has been talked about a bit in this forum. Does LightSpace have an Autocalibration feature? There's several versions, which version works with the Radiance Pro?
> 
> Thanks


I use LightSpace Pro and have for many years. I also have a Pro 444x and LightSpace works like a charm with the 444x for auto cal and as a pattern generator for any size triplet window patterns and APL from 0 to 100%. 

All you do is run a profile (any size you want), and then use that profile to experiment with color spaces to tone mapping when making one or many 3DLUT for the Pro 444x from the same profile. All you need to do is setup your white point, meter, set how many color points you want to profile. Once the profile is done set your color space and tone mapping to make the 3DLUT, LightSpace does the rest with auto cal.

The more measured color points you set the longer the time for running the profile in autocal.
Making the 3DLUT with autocal only takes about 5 seconds and then is ready to load into the 444x memory's.

Ted, Steve or Gordon can give you a better idea of what level of LightSpace would suit your needs.

I use about 9200 color points when running a profile. What I do is start the profile and go to bed. When I wake up the profile is done and my display is blanked out, black screen so no burn in. 

ss


----------



## SJHT

We need that Gordon Lightspace/Lumagen guide....


----------



## leemathre

SJHT said:


> We need that Gordon Lightspace/Lumagen guide....


I need the "For Dummies" version.


----------



## SJHT

leemathre said:


> I need the "For Dummies" version.


Me too. Even just creating a basic LUT for SDR. Somebody tell me "use this value, check this box, etc.". Mine come out horrible and I go back to Calman. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 070217*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 070217*
More reliable and faster input switching in some cases than firmware 052017-070117.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

jabz said:


> Hi, Im considering getting the Lumagen Pro for my 4K setup as I have an A-Lens and because of the recent HDR intensity mapping capabilities, also would like to get the best out of my VW520 HDR capability.
> I have an Xrite i1 Pro that I purchased from Amazon a couple years back and Chromapure 2.x with Autocal licence. I am not sure if I should upgrade to Chromapure 3.x or get LightSpace as that has been talked about a bit in this forum. Does LightSpace have an Autocalibration feature? There's several versions, which version works with the Radiance Pro?
> 
> Thanks


Hi,

If you have X-Rite i1PRO (Spectrophotometer) then you will need to get the X-Rite i1Display PRO (Colorimeter) to be able to take measurements for 3D LUT (because stand alone i1PRO is slow and poor at low light measurements), you will use i1PRO as a reference to create a meter correction table (which will improve the colorimeter color accurancy) while i1Display PRO is a lot faster and very good at low light measurements, so having both meters it's be best combo for any home calibration enthusiast.

LightSpace is the oldest software in the market which designed for 3D LUT display characterization, think that they were involved in pro area for 3D LUTs from 2009, no-one knew at HT area that time what was a 3D LUT....ChromaPure released @ August 2009 while CalMAN had version 3.0 out that time 
So when LightSpace was creating 3D LUT profilings for thousand color points for movie/film industry (with 1 meter read per color) the same time ChromaPure/CalMAN has able only to measure (graphical presentation what meters was reading, dE calculation, generate graphs from reading) of 11-point Grayscale and simple Gamut readings (6 colors only, RGBCMY).

These facts show exactly how advanced color science LightSpace had before a lot of years for 3D LUT's and can guarantee you professional level of final results.

LightSpace's Chief Colour Scientist is the same person that developed the Colour Pipeline for Industrial Light & Magic (ILM: George's Lukas Motion Picture Effects Company), WETA Digital (Peter's Jackson Visual Effects Company) & Park Road Post (Peter's Jackson Post Production Facilities). Their Chief Colour Scientist was also responsible for the colour science in TrueLight; as you can see there's a large amount of colour science knowledge behind the LightSpace's Engine.

LightSpace is reading one point one only time, so for a 4913 color point 3D LUT it takes 4913 meter readings for example, doing this... LightSpace will know better how your projector/display is responding and about what colors can display and created a virtual model of your display to feed it's engine... The more points you feed it's engine, the greater idea of what your display is capable and what corrections can be applied, so LightSpace generates a correction 3D LUT table at once for all color points together, so it counts linearity of the correction, more smooth, and with better final results, and it will avoid to try to fix something that can't fixed or try extreme corrections to get you low dE somewhere but not good result later validating visually etc.

When you finish the measurement with LightSpace it saves one measurement data file. You use that file to generate the colorspace correction 3D LUT tables. The correction generation takes about 2-3 seconds only. For example you can generate different corrections in a few seconds, with different gamma, for example one correction with 2.2 Gamma, other with 2.3 Gamma other with 2.4 other with BT1886, so from one measurement run you can generate as many colorspace conversion you like, with different gamma values, without needing to take new measurements. When a newer version of LightSpace will be released and you see that at it's release notes the colorspace engine is improved for example, you don't need to take new measurements....you just install the newer LightSpace version, you opening your last measurement data file and you generate the new corrections.

Additionally from November 2016, LightSpace has added HDR Multiplier feature for HDR Projection and custom roll-off parameters which a lot of Lumagen PRO users are using already for HDR 3D LUT generation for projectors. All that time no other calibration company has something to offer similar, this is why LightSpace is the only choice for Lumagen PRO users which work as expected.










The correct license level where you can use any Lumagen processor and i1Display PRO, i1PRO1/2 is the LightSpace HTL, you can contact me for more details here: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html

BTW, there no annual fees for updates with LightSpace, there always free.


----------



## jabz

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you have X-Rite i1PRO (Spectrophotometer) then you will need to get the X-Rite i1Display PRO (Colorimeter) to be able to take measurements for 3D LUT (because stand alone i1PRO is slow and poor at low light measurements), you will use i1PRO as a reference to create a meter correction table (which will improve the colorimeter color accurancy) while i1Display PRO is a lot faster and very good at low light measurements, so having both meters it's be best combo for any home calibration enthusiast.


Thanks for the comprehensive explanation, certainly helps. I only have the X-Rite i1Display Pro (Colorimeter), should I also get a X-Rite i1Pro (Spectrophotometer)? to use with LightSpace?


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

jabz said:


> Thanks for the comprehensive explanation, certainly helps. I only have the X-Rite i1Display Pro (Colorimeter), should I also get a X-Rite i1Pro (Spectrophotometer)? to use with LightSpace?


Since you have the colorimeter, you can work with that, it can work as stand-alone for 3D LUT, but if you want to improve more it's color accuracy then you have to add i1PRO2.

While i1Display PRO Colorimeter, it's fast, accurate at low light, it's not so good to measure each display spectral characteristics, so for that reason they have add some 4-5 generic tables for each display technology to select (from the factory), so it has OLED,LCD,LED,CRT, Projector selections where you load some generic corrections to fix it's inaccuracy of color measuring. The problem is that each device is unique so even if you measure 10 different projector models, they will have different spectral response, so the best thing is to create a unique correction table for each specific device you need to calibrate. For that reason you need a spectrophotometer like i1PRO2, to create a meter correction table for the i1Display PRO.

So ideally you need to have both meters, one to use it as a reference (i1PRO2) which is a spectrophotometer, so it will be used only initially to create a 4 color matrix correction table (measure White/Red/Green/Blue) with i1PRO2 and then measure the same colors with i1Display PRO (colorimeter) and after that LightSpace will calculate the offset correction, so you will use only the i1Display PRO for the whole calibration. This procedure is something you do initially.


----------



## jabz

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Since you have the colorimeter, you can work with that, it can work as stand-alone for 3D LUT, but if you want to improve more it's color accuracy then you have to add i1PRO2.



I purchased the following spectrometer i1pro 2 from eBay  I hope it's the right one. There's so many different names etc.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

jabz said:


> I purchased the following spectrometer i1pro 2 from eBay  I hope it's the right one. There's so many different names etc.


Yes, it's fine, you got the correct spectrophotometer.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Hi guys, for LightSpace users using Lumagen PRO, there some additions related with HDR calibration, since I don't have a Lumagen PRO/Projector combo to test them out, I can provide a download link for any LightSpace user which want to test these new features, if he will send me a msg here: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html










Light Illussion has released a Beta Build of LightSpace CMS 8.0.0.2630 (15 July 2017) which adds some new HDR Tone Mapping Options.

The LightSpace's User Guide has been updated to cover these new options, here: http://www.lightillusion.com/lut_manual.html#colour_space_conversion)


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 070217*
> More reliable and faster input switching in some cases than firmware 052017-070117.
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware




This firmware has eliminated any handshake issues with my Sony 5000 that cropped up recently (as others have noted)


----------



## thrang

Every time I look at Lightspace, I go slightly blind...it is so confusing, with so many options (many of which seem completely unnecessary for home theater use) that I can never come close to making the plunge for it.


Plus they can't spell color correctly...


Hopefully a much more streamlined GUI with a better sense of presume workflow will be developed to broaden its appeal, as I do understand it does the job well.


----------



## dinamigym

thrang said:


> This firmware has eliminated any handshake issues with my Sony 5000 that cropped up recently (as others have noted)




Yes...70217 seems rock solid!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tuning

I am new to video processor and have a few questions. I have heard about madvr. Is the lumagen pro unit just a standalone unit with similar function to madvr? How is the scaling compared to madvr? Is the intensity mapping feature on a frame by frame basis, thus simulating the Dolby vision/HDR 10+? Can it handle non linear scaling so that i can convert all display to scope format and fill my screen?

What are the advantages of this unit if dolby vision or HDR 10+/dynamic hdr becomes more prevalent?

Thanks for any help you can provide on these questions.


----------



## SJHT

thrang said:


> Every time I look at Lightspace, I go slightly blind...it is so confusing, with so many options (many of which seem completely unnecessary for home theater use) that I can never come close to making the plunge for it.
> 
> 
> Plus they can't spell color correctly...
> 
> 
> Hopefully a much more streamlined GUI with a better sense of presume workflow will be developed to broaden its appeal, as I do understand it does the job well.


Hopefully, Gordon's upcoming dummy guide for Pro and Lightspace will help. SJ


----------



## Roland Janus

SJHT said:


> Hopefully, Gordon's upcoming dummy guide for Pro and Lightspace will help. SJ


did he say Lightspace?
Id like to see it for Chromapure too


----------



## Chris5

Without putting words into Gordon's mouth (ok, I am) he does not use Chromapure


----------



## KarlKlammer

Hello,

While watching "The Magnificent Seven" (4000 Nits Mastering Level) on UHD BD I compared my dedicated LightSpace LUT for HDR and IM and noticed obvious differences. There are a lot of scenes showing sky and clouds. With LightSpace the clouds have a lot more structure and highlights. With IM they looked rather "flat". 
I wasn't able to find a combination of settings in the Radiance to get an equal picture with IM. With my JVC X9500 I get 116 Nits. Display Max Light was set to 500. It helped slightly to increase it to 700 as this is also the value for EOTF Nits in the LightSpace LUT. But still the picture looks better with the LightSpace LUT. 

I noticed this difference several times in the last weeks with other movies. Some of them are mastered at 1000 Nits. As long as LightSpace delivers a better result than IM, I will stay with LightSpace.

Here is an example. The exposure time of the pictures is slightly different. And the picture with LightSpace is always a little darker than with IM. But the effect is as written above.

Edit
I attached two gamma charts created by LightSpace using a Quick Profile. The first gamma chart is based on the settings that resulted in the two example pictures. The second chart is made after an hour of testing. This is the closest I can get IM to the LightSpace LUT. It seems that the transition parameter set to 7 is not enough to form the kind of s-curve that LightSpace creates.


----------



## jabz

Hi I have received my Radiance Pro 4446 and hooked it up into my AVR chain in the weekend. But I ran into some HDMI Sync issues.

First I tried hooking it up with my AVR in front because I wanted the AVR menus..
Oppo 1 OUT to Onkyo BD/DVD 1 IN - (Oppo supplied premium HDMI cable 6ft)
Onkyo Main Out to Lumagen 1 IN - (Monoprice Premium HDMI cable 6ft)
Lumagen 4 OUT to Sony 2 IN - (Monster UltraHD Black Platinum HDMI 50ft)

Could't get a stable picture (UHD Movie 'The Martian') at all with this arrangement kept syncing and losing HDR etc, however the Oppo and Onkyo menu's were displayed fine.

Next I tried hooking it up as per the manual Receiver after the Radiance.
Oppo 1 OUT to Lumagen 1 IN (Oppo supplied premium HDMI cable 6ft)
Lumagen 1 OUT to Onkyo BD/DVD 1 IN - (Monoprice Premium HDMI cable 6ft)
Lumagen 4 OUT to Sony 2 IN - (Monster UltraHD Black Platinum HDMI 50ft)

This arrangement functioned a lot better, however a couple of times during the playback of The Martian, I would notice the picture would black out and see the HDMI2 banner from the projector, but it would retain the HDR/BT2020 signal when it came back 1 sec later.
I never had this issue without the Lumagen in the chain, my 50ft Monster Black platinum was connected via Oppo to Projector.
I find it odd now that its unable to cope with he Lumagen, which is essentially passing the same signal. Besides this isn't even a 18GHz problem since the projector VW520ES is not capable of it and the Lumagen is all 9GHz cards.


----------



## Chris5

Total guess; my money is on the monster cable. The lumagen uses very fast switching transistor which mean a lot (most) cables will have problems. blueJean FE bonded pair cables work well


----------



## procine

I use Atlas Cables throughout my whole system. Work like a charm with 18Gbp


----------



## henrich3

jabz said:


> Hi I have received my Radiance Pro 4446 and hooked it up into my AVR chain in the weekend. But I ran into some HDMI Sync issues.
> 
> First I tried hooking it up with my AVR in front because I wanted the AVR menus..
> Oppo 1 OUT to Onkyo BD/DVD 1 IN - (Oppo supplied premium HDMI cable 6ft)
> Onkyo Main Out to Lumagen 1 IN - (Monoprice Premium HDMI cable 6ft)
> Lumagen 4 OUT to Sony 2 IN - (Monster UltraHD Black Platinum HDMI 50ft)
> 
> Could't get a stable picture (UHD Movie 'The Martian') at all with this arrangement kept syncing and losing HDR etc, however the Oppo and Onkyo menu's were displayed fine.
> 
> Next I tried hooking it up as per the manual Receiver after the Radiance.
> Oppo 1 OUT to Lumagen 1 IN (Oppo supplied premium HDMI cable 6ft)
> Lumagen 1 OUT to Onkyo BD/DVD 1 IN - (Monoprice Premium HDMI cable 6ft)
> Lumagen 4 OUT to Sony 2 IN - (Monster UltraHD Black Platinum HDMI 50ft)
> 
> This arrangement functioned a lot better, however a couple of times during the playback of The Martian, I would notice the picture would black out and see the HDMI2 banner from the projector, but it would retain the HDR/BT2020 signal when it came back 1 sec later.
> I never had this issue without the Lumagen in the chain, my 50ft Monster Black platinum was connected via Oppo to Projector.
> I find it odd now that its unable to cope with he Lumagen, which is essentially passing the same signal. Besides this isn't even a 18GHz problem since the projector VW520ES is not capable of it and the Lumagen is all 9GHz cards.


I'd recommend taking your AVR out of the video path. Connect all your source devices to the Radiance Pro and output video from the Pro to your PJ and audio to your AVR. Your Radiance can do all the source switching.

Once everything's cabled up correctly, play a UHD/HDR movie and view the Radiance Pro's _Status_ screen. Verify that:
*Mode = 3840x2160p* for both the Input and Output.
*Rate = 23.98 Hz* for both the Input and Output.
*Format = 422-HDR2020* for the Input. *Format = 422-SDR2020* should work better for the Output.

If the color space isn't 4:2:2 for the Input, go into the Oppo's _Video Output Setup_ -> _Color Space_ menu and set it to *YCbCr 4:2:2*.

Your video signal shouldn't exceed the 9 GHz limitations of both your Radiance Pro and your PJ or you may experience dropouts. Outputting UHD/HDR content at _2160P 4:2:2 12-bit_ will keep the signal bandwidth within your equipment's limitations:


----------



## jabz

Great thanks, considering some cables of this length are 80% of the price of the Monoprice or Ruipro fiber, cables I may aswell future proof and get one of them.


----------



## KarlKlammer

I purchased the Monoprice SlimRun AV HDR cable a few weeks ago and use it in an arrangement similar to the one you tried first (sources connected to AVR, Radiance between AVR and projectors). So far everything works as expected.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 071517*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 071517*
Adds ability to modify input hdr parameters while split screen stays on. 
Fixed a problem with deinterlacing that occurred after 030317 firmware. 
Fixed up a case of NLS setup not working. 
Improved switching times for some cases. 
Added display of downstream hdcp capability on page 2 of info screens. 

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware also takes extra minute to power on first time if 18ghz input cards present


*EDIT*
As of 1315 on 07/26/17 looks like Beta 071517 has been removed from site.


----------



## netroamer

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 071517*
> Adds ability to modify input hdr parameters while split screen stays on.
> Fixed a problem with deinterlacing that occurred after 030317 firmware.
> Fixed up a case of NLS setup not working.
> Improved switching times for some cases.
> Added display of downstream hdcp capability on page 2 of info screens.
> 
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes 230k from previous firmware also takes extra minute to power on first time if 18ghz input cards present


There is a problem with this update. I am getting a left to right color shift on all inputs and with internal test patterns. The shift appears to be in the red. The image is stable when the Pro is out of the chain.


----------



## netroamer

netroamer said:


> There is a problem with this update. I am getting a left to right color shift on all inputs and with internal test patterns. The shift appears to be in the red. The image is stable when the Pro is out of the chain.


UPDATE--Rolled back to 070217 and all is back to normal.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 071517 - color shift ?*



Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 071517*
> Adds ability to modify input hdr parameters while split screen stays on.
> Fixed a problem with deinterlacing that occurred after 030317 firmware.
> Fixed up a case of NLS setup not working.
> Improved switching times for some cases.
> Added display of downstream hdcp capability on page 2 of info screens.
> 
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware also takes extra minute to power on first time if 18ghz input cards present





netroamer said:


> There is a problem with this update. I am getting a left to right color shift on all inputs and with internal test patterns. The shift appears to be in the red. The image is stable when the Pro is out of the chain.





netroamer said:


> UPDATE--Rolled back to 070217 and all is back to normal.


Anyone else with issues?
I haven't updated yet.

cc @jrp

EDIT
As of 1315 on 07/26/17 looks like Beta 071517 has been removed from site.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 072117*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 072117*
Adds ability to modify input hdr parameters while split screen stays on. 
Fixed a problem with deinterlacing that occurred after 030317 firmware. 
Fixed up a case of NLS setup not working. 
Improved switching times for some cases. 
Added display of downstream hdcp capability on page 2 of info screens. 

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware also takes extra minute to power on first time if 18ghz input cards present



Looks like the old 071517 [functionality, hopefully minus any bugs]

Beta 071517
Adds ability to modify input hdr parameters while split screen stays on. 
Fixed a problem with deinterlacing that occurred after 030317 firmware. 
Fixed up a case of NLS setup not working. 
Improved switching times for some cases. 
Added display of downstream hdcp capability on page 2 of info screens.


----------



## thrang

KarlKlammer said:


> Hello,
> 
> While watching "The Magnificent Seven" (4000 Nits Mastering Level) on UHD BD I compared my dedicated LightSpace LUT for HDR and IM and noticed obvious differences. There are a lot of scenes showing sky and clouds. With LightSpace the clouds have a lot more structure and highlights. With IM they looked rather "flat".
> I wasn't able to find a combination of settings in the Radiance to get an equal picture with IM. With my JVC X9500 I get 116 Nits. Display Max Light was set to 500. It helped slightly to increase it to 700 as this is also the value for EOTF Nits in the LightSpace LUT. But still the picture looks better with the LightSpace LUT.
> 
> I noticed this difference several times in the last weeks with other movies. Some of them are mastered at 1000 Nits. As long as LightSpace delivers a better result than IM, I will stay with LightSpace.
> 
> Here is an example. The exposure time of the pictures is slightly different. And the picture with LightSpace is always a little darker than with IM. But the effect is as written above.
> 
> Edit
> I attached two gamma charts created by LightSpace using a Quick Profile. The first gamma chart is based on the settings that resulted in the two example pictures. The second chart is made after an hour of testing. This is the closest I can get IM to the LightSpace LUT. It seems that the transition parameter set to 7 is not enough to form the kind of s-curve that LightSpace creates.


I'm not sure I'm following - are you saying you are comparing the calibrated Lightspace HDR LUT _without_ IM versus no calibration _with_ IM?


----------



## KarlKlammer

Hi,

sorry if I wasn't able to make it clearer what I was trying to do. English isn't my native language, but I'm trying.  
Sometimes using IM I find scenes that I think look rather strange. So I wanted to make a comparison between a LightSpace HDR-LUT (IM disabled) and IM (based on a regular LightSpace BT.2020 LUT with Gamma 2.4).
Looking at those charts now, I know the reason. LightSpace creates a curve with an s-shape while IM does something in the higher IRE that I don't understand.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> Hi,
> 
> sorry if I wasn't able to make it clearer what I was trying to do. English isn't my native language, but I'm trying.
> Sometimes using IM I find scenes that I think look rather strange. So I wanted to make a comparison between a LightSpace HDR-LUT (IM disabled) and IM (based on a regular LightSpace BT.2020 LUT with Gamma 2.4).
> Looking at those charts now, I know the reason. LightSpace creates a curve with an s-shape while IM does something in the higher IRE that I don't understand.


That is interesting that you have managed to graph the two HDR gamma curves. I was planning (and still plan) to do the same thing, as I also see unrecoverable highlight crushing, particularly on titles such as The Shallows (waves and sky) with IM that is not there with a custom curve (using Arves tool on my JVC PJ).

If your gamma curve graph for IM is correct, it would appear there is some sort of error in the algorithm when creating the gradient for the upper half of the curve, which would explain the crushing.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Hi,

it's good to know that someone else has seen that there is something weird with IM. 
I understand that it is harder to recognize when you only know IM and haven't seen other implementations of tone mapping as LightSpace or the Arve-Tool.

Here is another example. It is from the Samsung demo clip "Chasing The Light". I first thought that the metadata of this clip was wrong. I tried 1000 nits clipping with LightSpace or feeding 4000 Nits metadata via Linker to the Radiance. But there was always an obvious difference in the hghlights between LightSpace and IM.

Just as an information: with LightSpace I have a projection multiplier of 6 (=698 EOTF Nits), clip at 4000 nits and have a soft roll off at 90%. So that is the black curve in my charts above. 
IM seems to clip rather hard. I have seen this in charts I got from LightSpace for 1000 and 4000 nits


----------



## Chris5

Ok, I give up, I've seen IM being mentioned a lot. What the is it?


----------



## thrang

Chris5 said:


> Ok, I give up, I've seen IM being mentioned a lot. What the is it?


Intensity Mapping for HDR


----------



## Chris5

Of course, I knew that!  cheers


----------



## jabz

So you are not supposed to use them together, i.e. a Lightspace LUT for HDR with IM? Is the IM only for uncalibrated? Not that I know how to do a LUT for HDR with Lightspace yet...


----------



## KarlKlammer

You can always use a LUT generated by LightSpace. But the embedded "gamma" information is different. 
When you want to use IM the LightSpace LUT has to be based on gamma 2.4. When you don't want to use IM then the LightSpace LUT has to be based on ST.2084 EOTF.


----------



## sjschaff

Had an interesting glitch pop up last night using the latest firmware. While switching inputs from Tivo Roamio to my Windows HTPC and beginning to watch a film I was getting jittering every few seconds of the image. Sound was smooth. Switched back to Tivo and the same thing appeared. So, I knew it was unlikely a source specific issue. Decided to go into standby on the Lumagen and then back to one of the inputs. That "fixed" the problem for both inputs. If it happens again, I suppose I'll go back to an earlier firmware level. That way I can see if it's a hardware issue (hope not).


----------



## jrp

I have had two people say the HDR Mapping is not as good for them as using Lightspace. I believe they are not understanding the calibration options and that you use HDR Intensity Mapping in conjunction with your calibration and not just one or the other. So, I thought I should post here.

HDR Intensity Mapping only affects the intensity. If you see less saturation using the HDR mapping it is a result of your 3D LUT calibration and not HDR Intensity Mapping. While intensity does have an impact on colors, HDR Intensity Mapping does not itself "modify" colors since it affects the Red, Green, and Blue channels identically.

We allow three different calibration options in the Radiance Pro (as discussed in the manual). Which one is best for your system is a personal preference. 

There is general consensus that the best option is to select CMS1 (default HDR CMS, or which ever one you use for HDR sources) Colorspace = SDR2020 to avoid the less than ideal HDR tone mapping in the projectors/TVs. NOTE: Some projectors/TVs do not have the as much light output for SDR input mode, which may mean they cannot have as good ("bright") a picture using an SDR "container" for HDR source from the Radiance Pro. I think this is a design mistake on their part, but you may have to then leave the "CMS1 Colorspace = HDR2020" (and "Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR") in this case (but note that you would then also need Lightspace to do the HDR calibration since at this time Calman and Chromapure cannot do a HDR 3D LUT calibration).

NOTE: If you have "Display Max Light" set to 10000 the HDR Intensity Mapping does not make any changes to the transfer function (and is not intended to). Its function is to "roll off" and/or possibly "clip" the transfer function to adapt HDR sources 10000 nit "max" to the actual brightness of the display. When "Colorspace = HDR" from the the Pro the display itself assume the the maximum is 10000 and so you might need to select "Display Max Light = 10000" because the display changes the transfer function to match its true light output internally. You cannot do this both externally in the Pro and then again in the display.

====

Having chosen Colorspace = SDR2020 for the output there seems to be a lack of understanding that there are then two options for 3D LUT calibration.

One option is to have "Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR" and then do an SDR to SDR 3D LUT (BTW you need to temporarily make CMS1 the choice for SDR sources for this calibration). This is currently the only choice for Calman and Chromapure. It has the advantage that you have the maximum range of control using the HDR Mapping since it control of the HDR to an SDR container before the 3D LUT and so allows the maximum user adjustment to compensate for differences between movies. Note that this is not the ideal solution in that colors are not exactly the same for this calibration method since you are not in the HDR Gamma space. This is why some say the colors are not as saturated. It does look very good though and most are extremely happy with the results.

The other option is you can select "Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR" and do the 3D LUT as a "HDR to SDR conversion LUT." NOTE: I believe this is still Gordon's preferred method. For this you currently need to use Lightspace since it can do an HDR calibration. You need HDR Intensity Mapping off during the calibration, and you may want to adjust the Lightspace parameters to leave some room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to be able to make changes to the image. This is the issue with this approach since if you do a straight HDR calibration the "Display Max Light" might have to be set to 10000 (since that's what a HDR calibration is adapting to). If "Display Max Light" is anywhere above about 2000 nits there is little wiggle room for HDR Intensity Mapping to adjust the image. The up side of this method is you are doing a true HDR calibration and as some have pointed out you can get more saturated colors.

If you use either of the "Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR" methods, you may have to leave the "Display Max Light" set very high, but with some experimentation with Lightspace parameters you may be able to do a calibration that allows the "Display Max Light" to be set below 4000 nit which allows some control room for at least 4000 nit titles.

====== 

I hope this helps better understand HDR calibration options. Each method has advantages and disadvantages. There is not one right choice for every situation.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Hello,
> 
> While watching "The Magnificent Seven" (4000 Nits Mastering Level) on UHD BD I compared my dedicated LightSpace LUT for HDR and IM and noticed obvious differences. There are a lot of scenes showing sky and clouds. With LightSpace the clouds have a lot more structure and highlights. With IM they looked rather "flat".
> I wasn't able to find a combination of settings in the Radiance to get an equal picture with IM. With my JVC X9500 I get 116 Nits. Display Max Light was set to 500. It helped slightly to increase it to 700 as this is also the value for EOTF Nits in the LightSpace LUT. But still the picture looks better with the LightSpace LUT.
> 
> I noticed this difference several times in the last weeks with other movies. Some of them are mastered at 1000 Nits. As long as LightSpace delivers a better result than IM, I will stay with LightSpace.
> 
> Here is an example. The exposure time of the pictures is slightly different. And the picture with LightSpace is always a little darker than with IM. But the effect is as written above.
> 
> Edit
> I attached two gamma charts created by LightSpace using a Quick Profile. The first gamma chart is based on the settings that resulted in the two example pictures. The second chart is made after an hour of testing. This is the closest I can get IM to the LightSpace LUT. It seems that the transition parameter set to 7 is not enough to form the kind of s-curve that LightSpace creates.


Karl:
Do you have CMS1 Colorspace = HDR2020 as I suspect? If so then the curve with HDR Intensity Mapping is showing you the effect of the internal transfer function of the TV/projector. Lightspace can compensate for this since it is taking measurement and is (of course) why you use the calibration in conjunction with the HDR Intensity Mapping.

If you have Colorspace set to SDR2020, then I would be a bit puzzled but it would still indicate why you need to do a calibration and then use HDR Intensity Mapping to adjust post calibration.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Thank you for your explanations, Jim

But this confuses me slightly. Maybe I should explain what I do.

I select Reference as color profile for my JVC X9500, which is basically DCI-P3. Then I take an empty CMS, chose a source with SDR and FHD and profile the JVC using LightSpace. Afterwards I create a LUT with "UHD Rec2020" and Gamma 2.4 as source. After uploading it to the Radiance I chose SDR2020 as colorspace. And I don't use any HDR capability of the JVC.

I'm not complaining about color or saturation. I only have an issue with the ST.2084 curve and the resulting image especially regarding highlights.


----------



## sjschaff

This evening I see that in switching inputs changes audio in 3 seconds (using an Anthem D2V processor). However, video never appears after switching. To get things working again requires putting the Lumagen Pro into Standby and then turning On again. 

And then switching inputs usually takes 10 seconds for video to switch. Seems unpredictable as to success or failure in switching. It seems that the Lumagen is not "seeing" or properly handling inputs that are switched on after the Lumagen is already active. There are also instances where video comes on and no sound comes through. And if an input is not used for a time, and I switch to it no video appears. Even pressing the OK on an input yields no status. Even switching back to the Tivo yields no sound or video or status. 

In using Microsoft Remote Desktop to access the Windows PC connected to the Lumagen that revives the video signal to the Lumagen which displays on the projector. I will revert to 070217 to see if the problems persist, or at least diminish in some way.

UPDATE: After speaking with Jim Peterson of Lumagen it appears that a number of potential issues with my setup may contribute to the issues I have been experiencing. These include the cable length and type between my Lumagen and JVC RS500, some of the settings I had in the Lumagen configuration, etc. Jim helped me re-set the Lumagen and create an appropriate output setting to mitigate the video switching time I have seen. Jim provided setup instructions to prevent the JVC from having to restart the output to the projector when switching inputs. And the latest release even has a new direct code to make this faster to setup. "

After more testing it became clear that my Lumagen to JVC connection resulted in judder, due to either or both the cable and the settings of one input as 60GHz versus 59.94GHz. Swapping the current cable for a Monoprice Redmere active one and adjusting the output allowed me to return to the base setup with "allow output restarts" setting. Now switching is rapid and no judder in evidence.

Since I may be experiencing and edge case of my hardware configuration, I'll be continuing to test both the current and prior firmware levels, if needed, to identify what I see and if one or other versions show the problem. Time will tell. So far, with resetting the unit and altering the output settings and using the latest firmware all is now well.

As always, Lumagen not only stands behind their products but offer the absolute best customer support in the business, bar none.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW priorities and a tentative timeline?*

@jrp

Thank you for recent posts.

I was wondering if you could give us an update on FW priorities and a tentative timeline.

Mike


----------



## mskreis

jrp said:


> Having chosen Colorspace = SDR2020 for the output there seems to be a lack of understanding that there are then two options for 3D LUT calibration.
> 
> One option is to have "Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR" and then do an SDR to SDR 3D LUT (BTW you need to temporarily make CMS1 the choice for SDR sources for this calibration). This is currently the only choice for Calman and Chromapure. It has the advantage that you have the maximum range of control using the HDR Mapping since it control of the HDR to an SDR container before the 3D LUT and so allows the maximum user adjustment to compensate for differences between movies. Note that this is not the ideal solution in that colors are not exactly the same for this calibration method since you are not in the HDR Gamma space. This is why some say the colors are not as saturated. It does look very good though and most are extremely happy with the results.


I am using a JVC RS57 and Chromapure. If I use the above method then I assume I should select the 2020 color space on my JVC, correct?

Mark


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I can just add that in actual fact the best response i've been seeing is by SDR LUT not HDR LUT. I'm currently testing the new version of LightSpace to see how it is behaving in HDR to SDR LUT compared to IM in Lumagen and UHDREC2020.


----------



## Wookii

Gordon Fraser said:


> I can just add that in actual fact the best response i've been seeing is by SDR LUT not HDR LUT. I'm currently testing the new version of LightSpace to see how it is behaving in HDR to SDR LUT compared to IM in Lumagen and UHDREC2020.


Gordon, could you post up a gamma curve graph with IM engaged to compare to the one Karl posted?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Wookii said:


> Gordon, could you post up a gamma curve graph with IM engaged to compare to the one Karl posted?


 The shape of that graph depends greatly on the settings in the IM section of the Lumagen. I'll see if i can come up with something later but as i say change some parameters in the IM section and it will look quite different


----------



## Wookii

Gordon Fraser said:


> The shape of that graph depends greatly on the settings in the IM section of the Lumagen. I'll see if i can come up with something later but as i say change some parameters in the IM section and it will look quite different


Maybe just post two, one at each extreme then, one with Shape=0, Transition=7, and one with Shape=7, Transition=0 - I'm personally only interested it what the top of the curve looks like at this point, as to me that is the area that doesn't quite seem to be working correctly, and Karls graph showed some very odd results.


----------



## loggeo

Gordon Fraser said:


> I can just add that in actual fact the best response i've been seeing is by SDR LUT not HDR LUT. I'm currently testing the new version of LightSpace to see how it is behaving in HDR to SDR LUT compared to IM in Lumagen and UHDREC2020.


So, so far you prefer a 2.4 gamma 2020 starting point in SDR LUT with IM enabled instead of a LS 2084 HDR LUT? In both cases I assume you select a sdr2020 output colorspace. Correct?
I would be interested to read your findings regarding the new features of LS and especially lower and upper soft roll off starting points.


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Maybe just post two, one at each extreme then, one with Shape=0, Transition=7, and one with Shape=7, Transition=0 - I'm personally only interested it what the top of the curve looks like at this point, as to me that is the area that doesn't quite seem to be working correctly, and Karls graph showed some very odd results.


Well, remember, since the Radiance firmware is in beta (and will be until the next lunar eclipse), there is always room for improvement.


----------



## KarlKlammer

@Wookii
By the way - my settings for the best possible match between IM and Lightspace were:

Display Max Light 600
Ratio -15
Shape 0
Clip 0
Tran 7
Gamma 0
Black -2


This was for a 4000 Nits feature and 116 Nits peak brightness of my X9500


----------



## thrang

KarlKlammer said:


> @Wookii
> By the way - my settings for the best possible match between IM and Lightspace were:
> 
> Display Max Light 600
> Ratio -15
> Shape 0
> Clip 0
> Tran 7
> Gamma 0
> Black -2
> 
> 
> This was for a 4000 Nits feature and 116 Nits peak brightness of my X9500


I dont know a ton about this, but the -15 ratio seems to say you're starting peak nits is not optimal


----------



## KarlKlammer

thrang said:


> peak nits is not optimal


We're talking about projectors. It will never be optimal for HDR.


----------



## thrang

KarlKlammer said:


> We're talking about projectors. It will never be optimal for HDR.


I know. I have a 5000 and the Pro calibrated to SDR2020 and use IM.

MY understanding is Ratio is for find tuning up or down from 0 depending on content authorizing, after peak nits is properly set. I find I rarely touch ratio and it's set at 0. -15 is max of the range I believe, unless that was increased in the latest firmware.

Maybe increase your peak nits by 100 and bring ratio back up


----------



## KarlKlammer

I can't do that. In high lamp mode I have about 170 Nits. 

For the first chart I posted Ratio was set to 0.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Thank you for your explanations, Jim
> 
> But this confuses me slightly. Maybe I should explain what I do.
> 
> I select Reference as color profile for my JVC X9500, which is basically DCI-P3. Then I take an empty CMS, chose a source with SDR and FHD and profile the JVC using LightSpace. Afterwards I create a LUT with "UHD Rec2020" and Gamma 2.4 as source. After uploading it to the Radiance I chose SDR2020 as Colorspace. And I don't use any HDR capability of the JVC.
> 
> I'm not complaining about color or saturation. I only have an issue with the ST.2084 curve and the resulting image especially regarding highlights.


Sorry but I am not sure what you mean by "FHD." Can you explain?

I am interpreting your comments as you have already done this and that the graphs you posted are a result of this.

There is some missing information. Do you have "Gamma to 3D LUT" set to HDR or SDR?

With Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR, and HDR Intensity Mapping off, you can do the Lightspace calibration and it should match the S-Curve you expect from Lightspace since it is doing a HDR to SDR conversion in 1D and 3D LUT. However the source would need to be in HDR mode. Since you mention "chose a source with SDR" I hope this is not the Gamma to 3D LUT mode you selected. If you want the Lightspace S-Curve this may be your optimal choice of mode. The downside is the HDR Intensity Mapping does not have much room to adapt the curve. As I mentioned in my previous post, you can try some different setting for Lightspace in order to allow a lower setting for Display Max Light, but even if you find some that work with Display Max Light = 2000 there is still not a lot of room for HDR Mapping to tune the image.

I think you are selecting Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR and doing a SDR calibration. The HDR Intensity Mapping is calculated in "Linear Gamma" space. It has three regions. The lower region is a linear slope (in Linear Gamma) that is based on the ratio of HDR maximum (10000 nits) to the display Max Light. The upper region is a linear slope in Linear Gamma, and in between is a curve to mate the two regions. So the inflection point you show in your graph would have to be some interaction of the projector transfer function and the HDR Mapping transfer function.

Please note I believe your curves are valid. It is just that they are surprising if this is the mode you are in and I will need to figure out what is the root cause and maybe modify the HDR mapping transfer function to account for it.

=== 

For calibration always select "Adjustable" for Radiance Pro patterns. Otherwise you will not see any effect from the Radiance Pro settings.

Please confirm you had/have Radiance Pro at default for this test, then changed CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020, Gamma to 3D LUT to SDR, and HDR Mapping off for calibration. Then Save these settings.

Projector should be in its default mode for a wide Gamut color mode. You can select a Gamma of 2.4 in the projector if you like. More light output is good as long as the black are very good.

You need to use the the Output Setup menu to point SDR709 sources to CMS1 for the calibration. Then afterwards change SDR709 back to using CMS0.

When your done you can use the internal patterns to measure the transfer function for a HDR source (in Adjustable mode).

============ 

The HDR to SDR transfer function we use maps HDR Gamma to Gamma 2.4, but maybe we need to take a look and modify the default for this case to be an S Curve. I will look into this.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> @jrpI was wondering if you could give us an update on FW priorities and a tentative timeline.
> 
> Mike


I have given up trying to give out schedules. As far as what's next, here are a few items from the to do list in current priority order:

Improved video deinterlacing
Inverse telecine support for 1080i, 480i and 576i film source
Some video enhancements
Increase pipeline precision
PiP (444X models only)
PoP (444X models only)
More deinterlacing improvements
More video enhancements
Complete some unimplemented sub-menus

The next set of improvements for video deinterlacing should be soon.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> I have given up trying to give out schedules. As far as what's next, here are a few items from the to do list in current priority order:
> 
> Improved video deinterlacing
> Inverse telecine support for 1080i, 480i and 576i film source
> Some video enhancements
> Increase pipeline precision
> PiP (444X models only)
> PoP (444X models only)
> More deinterlacing improvements
> More video enhancements
> Complete some unimplemented sub-menus
> 
> The next set of improvements for video deinterlacing should be soon.


Thanks Jim

I may get lambasted, but I would demote inverse telecine support...how many are heavily watching 1080i, 480i and 576i film sources?

What does increased pipeline precision refer to?


----------



## jrp

mskreis said:


> I am using a JVC RS57 and Chromapure. If I use the above method then I assume I should select the 2020 color space on my JVC, correct?
> 
> Mark


If a projector/TV support a Rec 2020 mode (either through Info frames or manually), yes in most cases you should select Rec2020 Colorspace for HDR source. So you would select the HDR CMS (CMS1 by default) output Colorspace = either SDR2020 or HDR2020 depending on which setup option you have chosen.

There can be times a system may be setup to always output SDR709 to the projector (even for HDR) for the maximum light output, or SDR2020 to the projector (to minimize output restarts if the projector takes a long time to lock on a signal change and still provide the best color for HDR), but generally the above option is best. For either of these alternate options calibration is required.


----------



## netroamer

thrang said:


> Thanks Jim
> 
> I may get lambasted, but I would demote inverse telecine support...how many are heavily watching 1080i, 480i and 576i film sources?


Consider yourself lambasted. I would very much like to see my remaining DVD titles at their best.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Thank you again for your feedback, Jim.



jrp said:


> Sorry but I am not sure what you mean by "FHD." Can you explain?


By FHD I meant [email protected]



> There is some missing information. Do you have "Gamma to 3D LUT" set to HDR or SDR?


"Gamma to 3D LUT" is set to SDR 



> Please note I believe your curves are valid. It is just that they are surprising if this is the mode you are in and I will need to figure out what is the root cause and maybe modify the HDR mapping transfer function to account for it.


Yesterday I watched "Jack Reacher" which is mastered at 1000 Nits and compared the image between IM and my LightSpace LUT. I didn't find a scene in which the image was so obviously different as with "The Magnificent Seven". So maybe the effect I have seen is limited to content mastered at >2000 Nits. I will try to create a graph for 1000 Nits. 



> For calibration always select "Adjustable" for Radiance Pro patterns. Otherwise you will not see any effect from the Radiance Pro settings.
> 
> Please confirm you had/have Radiance Pro at default for this test, then changed CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020, Gamma to 3D LUT to SDR, and HDR Mapping off for calibration. Then Save these settings.
> 
> Projector should be in its default mode for a wide Gamut color mode. You can select a Gamma of 2.4 in the projector if you like. More light output is good as long as the black are very good.
> 
> You need to use the the Output Setup menu to point SDR709 sources to CMS1 for the calibration. Then afterwards change SDR709 back to using CMS0.
> 
> When your done you can use the internal patterns to measure the transfer function for a HDR source (in Adjustable mode).
> 
> ============
> 
> The HDR to SDR transfer function we use maps HDR Gamma to Gamma 2.4, but maybe we need to take a look and modify the default for this case to be an S Curve. I will look into this.


Prior to calibration/characterization I send a NULL-Cube to the selected CMS (HDR Mapping off, Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR, Save). The Projector is set to a linear gamut that comes close to DCI-P3 and Gamma 2.4. Then I use the embedded patch generator of LightSpace for the characterization.
The LUT I create for IM is based on the LightSpace preset "UHD Rec2020" with Gamma 2.4. I upload this LUT to my preferred CMS, set the colorspace to SDR2020 and Gamma to 3D = SDR.


----------



## Mark_H

thrang said:


> Thanks Jim
> 
> I may get lambasted, but I would demote inverse telecine support...how many are heavily watching 1080i, 480i and 576i film sources?


Oi! I watch 1080i through my TV's Pro EVERY SINGLE DAY. Far more than I watch progressive sources in the cinema. Video deinterlacing/1080i improvements are my number one want from DAY ONE


----------



## Chris5

Agree with Mark 100%


----------



## thrang

Mark_H said:


> Oi! I watch 1080i through my TV's Pro EVERY SINGLE DAY. Far more than I watch progressive sources in the cinema. Video deinterlacing/1080i improvements are my number one want from DAY ONE


Tes, well I didn't say demote video deinterlacing, just film source inverse telecine... I just threw out 400 dvds!


----------



## thrang

netroamer said:


> Consider yourself lambasted. I would very much like to see my remaining DVD titles at their best.


I did say "heavily watching." Would you say you watch more DVD content than uhd, blu ray, or 30/60 video (broadcast)? Just curious... 

And not to not do it, just promote the other improvements for more commonly watched sources and desirable functionality first...


----------



## Chris5

Hi Thrang, I know you didn't ask me, but I'll say anyway.
UHD %0 (so far)
Bluray 2%
1080i (sky) 90%
DVD (576i TV shows/series) 8 %


----------



## thrang

For reference I'm roughly:

1080i (30/60i only, no film based material) 30%
UHD 60%
Blu Ray 10%
DVD 0%


----------



## Chris5

Hi thrang, your DVD is zero 'cause you yanks don't have as many good old detective series as we do.  and annoyingly you get our one on bluray where as for some reason we're stuck with them on DVD


----------



## sjschaff

thrang said:


> Thanks Jim
> 
> I may get lambasted, but I would demote inverse telecine support...how many are heavily watching 1080i, 480i and 576i film sources?
> 
> What does increased pipeline precision refer to?


Cord cutters, and I'm one, do watch OTA films on occasion. The stations in my area have yet to get past 1080i.


----------



## KarlKlammer

For movies mastered at 1000 nits I am able to get IM extremely close to a curve created by LightSpace. 
I am hardly able to see a difference. This is great!
Now I wish this would also be possible with titles mastered at 4000 nits.

Settings
Gamma to 3D LUT: SDR
Display Max Light: 600
Ratio: -12
Shape: 5
Clip: 0
Tran: 3
Gamma: 0
Black -1


----------



## alex_t

KarlKlammer said:


> For movies mastered at 1000 nits I am able to get IM extremely close to a curve created by LightSpace.
> I am hardly able to see a difference. This is great!
> Now I wish this would also be possible with titles mastered at 4000 nits.
> 
> Settings
> Gamma to 3D LUT: SDR
> Display Max Light: 600
> Ratio: -12
> Shape: 5
> Clip: 0
> Tran: 3
> Gamma: 0
> Black -1


Hello,

Could you give us the settings used with Lightspace CMS to generate REC2020/ST2084, in particular "screen max luminance" and the value for "multiplier". Also could you confirm you have used 1000 for "upper signal limit" ? (1000 because I have understood you did the measurements for source mastered at 1000 nits, am I right ?)

Thanks


----------



## loggeo

I made a lot of efforts yesterday using a 4000 nits mastered movie (Furious 8).
I settled with IM turned off, Gamma to 3d Lut set to HDR (Of course output colorspace was SDR2020).
My settings are attached. A multiplier of 6 was also good.
I didn' t check extensively at the lower end of the curve, but here are my findings:

*2084-2020 Luts
*
Using Luts based on 2084-2020 with Gamma to 3d Lut set to Hdr and IM turned on, I had to pick a value of 3500 nits and above. Even then, and no matter what settings I used with IM I could not resolve all details (explosion scene at 00:09:57).
When I set Gamma to 3d Lut to Sdr (IM should/must be enabled in this case), colours would become over-saturated and gamma dark. While I was able to adjust gamma using IM, colours would remain over-saturated. Fire would look more impressive but faces would become red. I could not fix this problem no matter what settings I followed on IM.

*gamma 2.4-2020 Luts
*

Using this method I came to the same conclusion as KarlKlammer came. While I would get an overall good picture, I would lose detail in high demanding scenes (explosion scene again). I could not fix this no matter settings I used.


----------



## KarlKlammer

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> Could you give us the settings used with Lightspace CMS to generate REC2020/ST2084, in particular "screen max luminance" and the value for "multiplier". Also could you confirm you have used 1000 for "upper signal limit" ? (1000 because I have understood you did the measurements for source mastered at 1000 nits, am I right ?)
> 
> Thanks


For my regular BT2020/ST.2084 LUT I took 116.3 nits for screen max luminance (which was measured during my characterization). And I usually use a projection multiplier of 6. 

But to create the graph yesterday and to make the results comparable via "Colour Standard Target" I worked slightly backwards. I activated IM and made a quick profile. Afterwards I created a custom colourspace for BT2020/ST.2084 with 1000 upper signal limit. For max display luminance I took the measured peak luninance during quick profile and again set the projection multiplier to 6. 
Then I changed the IM settings, did a quick profile (greyscale only) and compared the gamma result with my custom colour space selected in "Colour Standard Target". It took me about 10 iterations to get the IM curve this close to my preferred LightSpace target curve.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> For movies mastered at 1000 nits I am able to get IM extremely close to a curve created by LightSpace.
> I am hardly able to see a difference. This is great!
> Now I wish this would also be possible with titles mastered at 4000 nits.
> 
> Settings
> Gamma to 3D LUT: SDR
> Display Max Light: 600
> Ratio: -12
> Shape: 5
> Clip: 0
> Tran: 3
> Gamma: 0
> Black -1


Karl:

Thanks for providing your results. I am glad you have a set of parameters for HDR Intensity Mapping for 1000 nit sources that works for you now. I believe your results will prove useful to others as well.

Having the information from your posts should help us get the curve for 4000 nit sources you are looking for. The HDR Intensity Mapping processing is done in Linear Gamma. In Linear Gamma the HDR Mapping curve is very smooth. The inflection point at the transition point in your graph is the result of the graph input being in HDR Gamma Space and the output measured in Linear Space and in the shape of the HDR Mapping curve above the transition point. I am looking at the equations to both extend the range of Transition, and change the curve in Linear Gamma Space to reduce the inflection at the Transition Point.

Is the difference in your first two "4000 nit" graphs just the Transition point? If you have all the settings for each and you changed more than transition, it might be helpful to have both sets.


----------



## KarlKlammer

It's good to know, that I was able to provide some useful input. 

I'm really sorry. But I didn't save the settings for my first 4000 nits curve. 
I think it was
Ratio 0
Shape 2 or 3
Transition 6 or 7

I'm not claiming that my parameters are perfect. My first goal was to come close to what I got from LightSpace. Now I have a good base for some optimizations.


----------



## sillysally

KarlKlammer said:


> It took me about 10 iterations to get the IM curve this close to my preferred LightSpace target curve.


Why not just use your LightSpace 3DLUT for BT2020/ST.2084, as long as you did the profile in BT2020/ST.2084.??

ss


----------



## KarlKlammer

Yes, that would be easy. 

The problem I have with the LightSpace BT2020/ST.2084 LUT is, that the greyscale is slightly off. That means I always have to make some adjustments in the Radiance Gamma Equalizer afterwards. The "UHD Rec2020" LUT with Gamma 2.4 has a much better greyscale. 
And when I want to change something for the LightSpace LUT I have to use my laptop. When I use IM I can make changes using the remote.


----------



## kaotikr1

I have been out of the loop for a bit, but can anyone PM the best options for doing the calibration with intensity mapping for a JVC 520/620 and an OPPO 203? Just curious as to what is working for people with this setup. I use Calman. 

Thanks!


----------



## D_B_0673

jrp said:


> If a projector/TV support a Rec 2020 mode (either through Info frames or manually), yes in most cases you should select Rec2020 Colorspace for HDR source. So you would select the HDR CMS (CMS1 by default) output Colorspace = either SDR2020 or HDR2020 depending on which setup option you have chosen.


Will the Pro do a HDR to SDR BT.2020 conversion for displays that are not bright enough for HDR, but I would want to have the 2020 colorspace. Some of the players do it, one ok with a linker and the other (OPPO) at the moment not well at all.
dan


----------



## jrp

D_B_0673 said:


> Will the Pro do a HDR to SDR BT.2020 conversion for displays that are not bright enough for HDR, but I would want to have the 2020 colorspace. Some of the players do it, one ok with a linker and the other (OPPO) at the moment not well at all.
> dan


The Pro can accept HDR and/or 2020 as input and then you can program it to output these as SDR or HDR, or select either 709 or 2020 for the output Colorspace. To output HDR in a "SDR container" you need to do a 3D LUT calibration, or use HDR Intensity Mapping, or both. So, you can do this without a 3D LUT calibration but it is better with a 3D LUT calibration. In summary, the Pro allows you to do pretty much anything you want for HDR verses SDR and 709 verses 2020 source material.

HDR is much easier to dial in on a bright TV than a projector. The current considered best option is a HDR-to-SDR 3D LUT using Lightspace and then turn on HDR Mapping to allow manually tuning the response curve.

You can also do a good job with the CMS1 Colorspace set to "SDR2020" or even "SDR709" with "Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR using Calman. Not quite as accurate as a true HDR calibration with Lightspace through the Pro but most are very happy with the Calman in SDR2020 output mode result.


----------



## thrang

Hey Jim if you get a chance please take a look at the conversation about elevated blacks in "Ghosts in the Shell" at

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread2.php?p=54603510#post54603510

Not a lumagen issue per say but maybe there is some information that could be helpful in firmware tweaks....


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Hey Jim if you get a chance please take a look at the conversation about elevated blacks in "Ghosts in the Shell" at
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread2.php?p=54603510#post54603510
> 
> Not a lumagen issue per say but maybe there is some information that could be helpful in firmware tweaks....


Glad you pointed that out, I had to increase gamma one step and reduce black level one step when I played Ghost in the Shell. Well worth it though, probably the best and wide ranging use of HDR I've seen to date!


----------



## mskreis

jrp said:


> The Pro can accept HDR and/or 2020 as input and then you can program it to output these as SDR or HDR, or select either 709 or 2020 for the output Colorspace. To output HDR in a "SDR container" you need to do a 3D LUT calibration, or use HDR Intensity Mapping, or both. So, you can do this without a 3D LUT calibration but it is better with a 3D LUT calibration. In summary, the Pro allows you to do pretty much anything you want for HDR verses SDR and 709 verses 2020 source material.
> 
> 
> 
> HDR is much easier to dial in on a bright TV than a projector. The current considered best option is a HDR-to-SDR 3D LUT using Lightspace and then turn on HDR Mapping to allow manually tuning the response curve.
> 
> 
> 
> You can also do a good job with the CMS1 Colorspace set to "SDR2020" or even "SDR709" with "Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR using Calman. Not quite as accurate as a true HDR calibration with Lightspace through the Pro but most are very happy with the Calman in SDR2020 output mode result.




Jim,

What do you recommend for those of us using a projector and Chromapure?


----------



## LJG

mskreis said:


> Jim,
> 
> What do you recommend for those of us using a projector and Chromapure?


Its interesting that most if not all of the calibrators here in the states do not use lightspace but rather chromapure. Lightspace looks to be a better choice for projectors/lumagen pro but for some reason has not been adapted by the "professionals"


----------



## thrang

I think because it looks similar to the systems used by NASA during the Apollo program...


----------



## alex_t

LJG said:


> Its interesting that most if not all of the calibrators here in the states do not use lightspace but rather chromapure. Lightspace looks to be a better choice for projectors/lumagen pro but for some reason has not been adapted by the "professionals"


 Hello, The other interesting part is that when professionals start using Lighspace CMS, most of them never get back to another calibration software. This needs to be also taken into consideration. I'm a professional calibrator and I use exclusively Lighspace CMS : 95% of my work is for manually calibrating TV and projector without 3DLUT. Before I used to work with Calman. Lightspace CMS is very powerful with a clear HMI, a clear report but it requires to well understand what your are doing. For this, the user manual and other tips on light illusion website are very helpful. Alexandre


----------



## loggeo

alex_t said:


> Hello, The other interesting part is that when professionals start using Lighspace CMS, most of them never get back to another calibration software. This needs to be also taken into consideration. I'm a professional calibrator and I use exclusively Lighspace CMS : 95% of my work is for manually calibrating TV and projector without 3DLUT. Before I used to work with Calman. Lightspace CMS is very powerful with a clear HMI, a clear report but it requires to well understand what your are doing. For this, the user manual and other tips on light illusion website are very helpful. Alexandre


Alex, I am curious about your suggestions for the low end soft roll off. Do you use a particular method to adjust it? Do you use it at all?


----------



## jrp

I spent some time looking at the graphs posted by Karl and at the HDR Intensity Mapping equations. I confirmed my thought that increasing the range of Transition would give a close match to the response curve Karl and others are looking for with 4000 nit sources.

I redid the HDR Intensity Mapping equations to allow Transition range to double from 0 to 7 currently to 0 to 14 in a new release. Patrick made the changes in a new release but did not have time to do much testing before he took a couple days off. So we did not post it yet.

I have been looking at Mad Max Fury road (a 4000 nit Source Max Master level title) and having Transition up in the 12 to 14 range helps with the bright details and highlights. At 38:13 muzzle flash the area around the flash is much brighter. At 43:00, the clouds in the background have much more detail.

I have a new "Alpha" release with the Transition range increase allowing a setting up to 14. We will likely post it on Monday, but if any of you want to give it a go, email me at [email protected]. I will email the link to you. I do not expect the release to have any issues as the only change was for the Transition range increase, but we do consider it Alpha level at this point. I only ask that you have time this weekend to check it out and report back what you find. Otherwise please wait until we put it on the the update page.


----------



## jrp

Thrang:

I took a quick look at the "Ghosts in the Shell" thread you mentioned. 

In reading the HDR10 spec, it appears to us and others we have talked to that black is black and the monitor black is informational. Said another way the blackest pixels should be the same for 0.000 nit minimum masters and for 0.005 nit minimum masters. I admit the spec is not absolutely clear on this.

It is possible that editing is done to have black for 0.005 nit movies higher than true black in the spec. Initially that is what we were told but does not seem correct according to the HDR10 space.

If there is good data to say we should automatically reduce black for 0.005 nit min masters verses 0 nit min masters, I would be very interested in it. If so we could add this as a feature.

I believe the differences in Black are just different editing and so will vary between 1000 and 4000 nit max and 0 and 0.005 nit min titles from title to title. This is why we allow the black level (and other HDR Intensity Mapping parameters) to be easily changed for each title if you like to compensate for the seemingly random variation between titles.


----------



## jrp

mskreis said:


> Jim,
> 
> What do you recommend for those of us using a projector and Chromapure?


With either Calman or Chromapure the only choice currently is to set the CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020 (or SDR709 can work), Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR, and do the calibration using SDR patterns to the Rec 2020 primary points. You need to temporarily set CMS1 to be used for 601/709 sources using the Output Setup menu then once the calibration is complete point 601/709 sources to CMS0 again.

This is not quite as accurate as as Colorspace = SDR2020, Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR, and using Lightspace to calibrate the 3D LUT to do the HDR to SDR container conversion, but it is still very good.


----------



## jrp

I have had several people ask me why there is a inflection in the curve Karl posted. So I thought I should talk a little bit about the issues of an HDR input to linear light output graph.

TV, movies, and photos, are all about what humans see. That is, linear light. HDR and SDR are purely engineering compromises to get the image from in front of the camera into your home with as much visual fidelity as possible. The Gamma in-between makes no difference as long as it provides the desired signal-to-noise ratio and it is isomorphic (one-to-one) as much as practical from camera input to TV/projector out. That is, what the camera sees is what you get (ignoring directors intent to change it for artistic reasons).

All computer created imagery does calculations in linear light. This is necessary to produce the correct images. HDR Intensity Mapping is done in linear light for the same reason. By converting to Linear light we can make adjustments to the transfer function and then convert the data to output in any Gamma we choose.

To evaluate what the HDR Intensity Mapping is doing to the image you need to look at it as linear light input to linear light output to make sense of it visually. Humans do not see in “HDR Gamma.” HDR plotted as the input warps the graph and can easily give the wrong idea of the transfer function. Of course, HDR in to linear light out graphs can be useful. It’s just that people may be misinterpreting what the graph means visually. Here is an example (attached).

The graph on the left is HDR input Gamma through HDR Intensity Mapping to linear light out. The curve on the right is linear light in to linear light out through HDR Intensity Mapping. Both use the same HDR IM parameters, but as you can see look totally different. The graph on the right gives an accurate visual of the transfer function and shows that the inflection point in the left curve is an artifact of having a non-linear input space.

In the right curve you can see how HDR Intensity Mapping is working for the chosen parameter values. The lower range has a steep but linear slope which is the nit-for-nit range. That is, in this range the image on the screen matches the source data as precisely as calibration allows. This slope is the HDR maximum of 10000 / Display_Max_Light. The graph reaches full output at 1.0 which in this case is above the maximum input level possible for the source’s reported Maximum Mastering Level. The upper region is linear, and there is a curve in the middle. Where the curve is vertically is set by Transition, and how smooth or sharp the curve is set by Shape. If we were to increase Clip above zero it would move the output intercept with 1.0 to the left.

I have considered changing the upper portion of the transfer function from linear to a curve. I am not convinced it is the right thing to do but I have not ruled it out. We will continue to listen to feedback and to work on improving HDR Intensity Mapping. However, I think it is already doing an excellent job – especially if you use it in conjunction with calibration – and doubling the range of the Transition parameter makes it even better.


----------



## KarlKlammer

So after applying the "alpha" FW and Jims explanation, this is how the graph looks like for 4000 nits sources.

At the moment I only have “Passengers” and “The 5th Wave” at hand for real image testing. 
There is the Columbia logo at the beginning of both movies. The “torch” is a good clue. It should be bright. And the clouds behind it should have a visible structure. That wasn’t the case with IM until now. Here I don’t see an obvious difference between LightSpace and IM any more. The same goes for a scene in Passengers where there is a sun-like planet with some highlights.


----------



## collinp

jrp said:


> I have had several people ask me why there is a inflection in the curve Karl posted. So I thought I should talk a little bit about the issues of an HDR input to linear light output graph.
> 
> ...


Awesome post. Thanks Jim.


----------



## jabz

Ok I got the HDMI issues with my Lumagen Pro mostly sorted purchased the mono price ultra slim finer optic cable and, I removed the other non 4k output so now getting more consistent connection. I did find however the HDMI 4 OUT is more temperamental than the others so I've got the projector hooked up to HDMI 2 OUT.

Before I dive into calibration using Gordon's guide for calibrating HDR, should I do any other calibrations, SDR etc? Are there any guides for LightSpace for this?


----------



## MJV29

There are no guides for using LightSpace with the Radiance Pro. We hope to have one eventually, but as of right now there is nothing. There is some help on LightSpace website but it goes over my head, that's not hard to do. Lol


----------



## SJHT

jabz said:


> Ok I got the HDMI issues with my Lumagen Pro mostly sorted purchased the mono price ultra slim finer optic cable and, I removed the other non 4k output so now getting more consistent connection. I did find however the HDMI 4 OUT is more temperamental than the others so I've got the projector hooked up to HDMI 2 OUT.
> 
> Before I dive into calibration using Gordon's guide for calibrating HDR, should I do any other calibrations, SDR etc? Are there any guides for LightSpace for this?


Gordon is going to expand his guide with the new Pro features. We all are waiting patiently


----------



## Light Illusion

thrang said:


> Every time I look at Lightspace, I go slightly blind...it is so confusing, with so many options (many of which seem completely unnecessary for home theater use) that I can never come close to making the plunge for it.
> 
> Plus they can't spell color correctly...
> 
> Hopefully a much more streamlined GUI with a better sense of presume workflow will be developed to broaden its appeal, as I do understand it does the job well.


Just been pointed at this discussion, so sorry for the late responses to the various questions... I'll try to answer as many as possible.

And this 'question' is probably a good place to start.

We do not have 'workflows' with LightSpace for any use - Lumagen or otherwise..
In basic terms, you just profile your display, make a LUT and upload it.
It really is that simple.

There are very few 'options' in this approach, so to be honest I struggle to understand when it is suggested it's 'complex'. It really is anything but.

And we are always available to answer questions!
(The forum on the Light Illusion website is always a good place to start, although a direct e-mail also gets responses - we are well know for our support!)

As for the spelling of Colour, we were there first! 

Steve


----------



## Light Illusion

MJV29 said:


> There are no guides for using LightSpace with the Radiance Pro. We hope to have one eventually, but as of right now there is nothing. There is some help on LightSpace website but it goes over my head, that's not hard to do. Lol


Please do feel free to contact us, either via out forum or even via direct e-mail.
We'll do all we can to help.

As yet, we do not fully understand the application of the IM feature of Lumagen, but the curves that have been posted (with the kink in the highlights) are not as we expect for HDR. There should be a smooth tone-map/roll-off.

We plan to spend some time with Gordon to explore this further, and will post out thoughts.

One point worth making is that you can concatenate differe LUTs within LightSpace.
So you can calibrate to UHD Rec20202 2.4 gamma, and than 'add' to that a LUT going from ST2084 Rec2020 to UHD Rec2020.

(Updated to say I have just tested the above, and you actually need to do the ST2084 Rec2020 to UHD Rec2020 LUT first, and then 'add' to that the 'UHD Rec20202 2.4 gamma to display profile' LUT - the order to concatenate LUTs is important!)

Just a thought, as there are many different ways to use LightSpace, as we do not have fixed workflows.

Steve


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## MJV29

Thanks so much Steve!! I will definitley be emailing you about some info. I am new to all of this so I need a beginners course but I have seen what your calibration software can do and I am very glad I have it. Look forward to using it in the future!


----------



## Light Illusion

Here is a bit more info that may be of interest.

As you (should) know, all HDR material is graded to the P3 colour space.

So, you can 'calibrate' your display to ST2084 P3, which as it is a smaller gamut than Rec2020 will not 'stress' the calibration algorithms within LightSpace as much as attempting to calibrate directly to Rec2020 on a narrow gamut display/projector.

Then you can concatenate that calibration LUT with a simple P3 to Rec2020 colour space conversion LUT.

You may get better end results with that approach.
(Just test the concatenation order to get it right!)

Steve


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## Nudgiator

Light Illusion said:


> One point worth making is that you can concatenate differe LUTs within LightSpace.
> So you can calibrate to UHD Rec20202 2.4 gamma, and than 'add' to that a LUT going from ST2084 Rec2020 to UHD Rec2020.
> 
> (Updated to say I have just tested the above, and you actually need to do the ST2084 Rec2020 to UHD Rec2020 LUT first, and then 'add' to that the 'UHD Rec20202 2.4 gamma to display profile' LUT - the order to concatenate LUTs is important!)
> 
> Just a thought, as there are many different ways to use LightSpace, as we do not have fixed workflows.
> 
> Steve





Light Illusion said:


> Here is a bit more info that may be of interest.
> 
> As you (should) know, all HDR material is graded to the P3 colour space.
> 
> So, you can 'calibrate' your display to ST2084 P3, which as it is a smaller gamut than Rec2020 will not 'stress' the calibration algorithms within LightSpace as much as attempting to calibrate directly to Rec2020 on a narrow gamut display/projector.
> 
> Then you can concatenate that calibration LUT with a simple P3 to Rec2020 colour space conversion LUT.
> 
> You may get better end results with that approach.
> (Just test the concatenation order to get it right!)
> 
> Steve


That are very interesting ideas, especially for users of LightSpace! But I think we should discuss that ideas in an own new thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-approaches-hdr-calibration.html#post54622754


----------



## thrang

Light Illusion said:


> There are very few 'options' in this approach, so to be honest I struggle to understand when it is suggested it's 'complex'. It really is anything but.


Just Google Lightspace calibration and look at some of their images that come up for different parts of the interface. This will scare anyone away except Pro's.

As an enthusiast I don't really care about the gory details, I just want the results. 

My two cents. I'd like to try it but the learning curve and variables look too complex for my time and inclination....

If you want to serve the consumer market you need either simplify the interface or have better pre-sales literature/videos that show my suprerficial impression is wrong, which it would very well be.


----------



## Nudgiator

thrang said:


> Just Google Lightspace calibration and look at some of their images that come up for different parts of the interface. This will scare anyone away except Pro's.
> 
> As an enthusiast I don't really care about the gory details, I just want the results.


The concept of LightSpace is completely different to CalMAN and Co. But it took me exactly two days to get very good results with LightSpace. Since then I have used CalMAN only for reporting. Steve posted very nice tutorials on his website. You should try them


----------



## Light Illusion

Nudgiator said:


> That are very interesting ideas, especially for users of LightSpace! But I think we should discuss that ideas in an own new thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-approaches-hdr-calibration.html#post54622754


I've added some additional info to the HDR Calibration User Guide on the Light Illusion website - linked to from the thread Nudgiator has started (link above).

Steve


----------



## sillysally

Is there any audio info (input/output) I can access from the 444x menus that tells me what the audio signal is.
iow, 5.1ch, 7.1ch, Atmos, DTS, ect.

ss


----------



## collinp

thrang said:


> Just Google Lightspace calibration and look at some of their images that come up for different parts of the interface. This will scare anyone away except Pro's.
> 
> As an enthusiast I don't really care about the gory details, I just want the results.
> 
> My two cents. I'd like to try it but the learning curve and variables look too complex for my time and inclination....
> 
> If you want to serve the consumer market you need either simplify the interface or have better pre-sales literature/videos that show my suprerficial impression is wrong, which it would very well be.


I have both Calman and Lightspace and prefer Lightspace's flexibilty, but I totally see how Calman's workflows are more approachable.

Really though, both pieces of software are missing the same thing : step by step instructions for how to calibrate a Radiance Pro. For Calman this would take the form of a workflow. For Lightspace this would take the form of a tutorial document.

The fact that "all" we need is a tutorial document shows the flexibility of Lightspace's approach. Of course a "Calibrate My External HDR Processor" workflow would be even easier but we will probably never get that. We are closer to a tutorial document.

We have some of the pieces in the Lightspace site tutorials and Gordon's document. It's not ideal. Gordon's document needs an update for the latest FW and LS versions. And really, this should all be synthesized into single document.

I think ultimately though, we don't have a tutorial or a workflow because nobody knows exactly what to do yet. This is the wild west. We are all still learning how to calibrate this stuff best. Once best practices are established I am sure tutorials will emerge and calibration will be pretty straight forward like it is for HD nearly 20 years after intro.


----------



## SJHT

I agree. Just tell us the options to select and step by step what to do. I believe that is what Gordon will hopefully have at some point. Seems like they would sell more copies of Lightspace if they did in my opinion. Also, having experts telling us it's simple? Yeah, playing complex piano pieces is simple for me... but I have been playing since I was a young kid. Lol. SJ


----------



## Bluemalu

I'm after some pointers for tweaking. My system CZ952 - Lumagen Radiance Pro - Oppo 203 has been setup and calibrated by Gordon and I've not had to play around with it at all until I've just watched Ghost in the Shell. Most of the UHD HDR was excellent as it has been on all my previous watched UHD's but on this one, Chapter 14 when the Major is in the little temple the blacks weren't, more of a washed out black. When she puts her gloved hand into the hand print the picture looks almost (I think the phrase is) solarized.

I'm in the process of reading the latest manual on how to dig deeper but if anyone has a ladybird guide it would be appreciated as I can't seem to grasp the concept of how it works (even with a Masters in Electronics).


----------



## sillysally

^^^^

You may want to look at my post about the Pro 444x and GITS.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l-ultra-hd-blu-ray-review-3.html#post54625182

And Kris's post.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l-ultra-hd-blu-ray-review-3.html#post54603824

ss


----------



## kaotikr1

thrang said:


> Just Google Lightspace calibration and look at some of their images that come up for different parts of the interface. This will scare anyone away except Pro's.
> 
> As an enthusiast I don't really care about the gory details, I just want the results.
> 
> My two cents. I'd like to try it but the learning curve and variables look too complex for my time and inclination....
> 
> If you want to serve the consumer market you need either simplify the interface or have better pre-sales literature/videos that show my suprerficial impression is wrong, which it would very well be.


That is where I struggle at times too. A pro likely has more time and way more interaction with the product and honestly they are able to tell if the results are in par with what is to be expected. For those of us who are unable to dedicate a lot of time to trial and error, we look to the pros/experts to help us. 

Calibrating IMO is not something you pickup in a few hours and just are an expert, there is even more confusion when adding in HDR and everything else these days.


----------



## thrang

Whoever wins the race to point-and-click calibration first will have the best chance of owning the consumer market. 

Actually, Tom from Chromapure has stated that auto-cal for HDR2020 is targeted for a forthcoming release, which will go a long way.


----------



## Light Illusion

Point and click calibration is unfortunately just not viable when it comes to final accuracy.
There are too may variables that any attempt at full automation will not understand/cope with.
We see this with the DDC approach to calibration automation, where user based manual calibration more often than not provides superior end results.
(When the display offers the same level of 'controls' as can be accessed via DDC, as few display do indeed not offer that...)

When it comes to 3D LUT calibration that is even more true.
Volumetric calibration is far beyond what any 'automated' approach can achieve.

I've added more info to the 'HDR Calibration User Guide', towards the end of the page.
http://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html
It explains more about the way you can used LUT Concatenation for end calibration, explaing more about what is possible for those that have a real interest in end calibration accuracy..

It makes sense that not all those attempting calibration will be able to grasp the nuances of high-end calibration, and we are most definitely not developing software for such users.

As such, we are not in any race to develop point and click calibration, as the end results will just not be acceptable to our high-end users, looking for true calibration accuracy.

Steve


----------



## thrang

Light Illusion said:


> Point and click calibration is unfortunately just not viable when it comes to final accuracy.
> There are too may variables that any attempt at full automation will not understand/cope with.
> We see this with the DDC approach to calibration automation, where user based manual calibration more often than not provides superior end results.
> (When the display offers the same level of 'controls' as can be accessed via DDC, as few display do indeed not offer that...)
> 
> When it comes to 3D LUT calibration that is even more true.
> Volumetric calibration is far beyond what any 'automated' approach can achieve.
> 
> I've added more info to the 'HDR Calibration User Guide', towards the end of the page.
> http://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html
> It explains more about the way you can used LUT Concatenation for end calibration, explaing more about what is possible for those that have a real interest in end calibration accuracy..
> 
> It makes sense that not all those attempting calibration will be able to grasp the nuances of high-end calibration, and we are most definitely not developing software for such users.
> 
> As such, we are not in any race to develop point and click calibration, as the end results will just not be acceptable to our high-end users, looking for true calibration accuracy.
> 
> Steve


I don't think the two approaches are diametrically opposed. You could certainly cater to the home enthusiast properly and get 90% of the way there with an automated process, and while still providing the manual tools for those who want to sweat the last 10%. As it is you sell an affordable home enthusiast package (so you are _priced_ for the non-pro user) but it still has foundations require pro knowledge and interaction (from what I can ascertain).

How big is _that_ market? Good luck, especially as the need for external calibration continues to diminish.


----------



## Light Illusion

We don't do '90%' of the way there...
We always strive for the best calibration possible.
And so do our customers.

And you can't do a '90%' calibration and then 'add' the final 10% to it, as the 90% may have taken you 10% below the target colour space, and if that is locked in, no further calibration can bring that back, without re-doing the whole calibration from scratch.

Yes we do sell to the home enthusiast market, but only to those looking for the best possible calibration, through the use of 3D LUTs.
Our main market is the Film & TV industry - those that grade the film you watch at home. And we make the same technology available to the home market.

Those that are happy with 90% are not our target market.

For those looking for 'manual' calibration LightSpace DPS is free.

And external calibration will not diminish, unless TV manufacturers add full 3D LUT based internal calibration, as our professional display manufacturer partners already offer, including FSI, Dolby, Eizo, NEC, Konviosion, Bon, Osee, BenQ, etc, etc...

And we partner with all those manufacturers to enable end user calibration, as manufacture calibration can never be 'accurate' due to time constraints - ignoring display drift, as all displays suffer.

It will be the same with consumer TV manufacturers (we are already in discussions...)

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html

Steve


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## anqgiap

My understanding is with manual calibration, it's near impossible to do ~ 5000 points color correction. With LightSpace HE + Radiance Pro, can the process be automated?


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

thrang said:


> Just Google Lightspace calibration and look at some of their images that come up for different parts of the interface. This will scare anyone away except Pro's.
> 
> As an enthusiast I don't really care about the gory details, I just want the results.
> 
> My two cents. I'd like to try it but the learning curve and variables look too complex for my time and inclination....
> 
> If you want to serve the consumer market you need either simplify the interface or have better pre-sales literature/videos that show my suprerficial impression is wrong, which it would very well be.


Start by downloading the free LightSpace DPS which your Lumagen work as patch generator and you can use any meter LightSpace support to take some measurements using the Tool -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface window, saturation, quick profile measurements etc.

Register here to receive a download link and free license for the LightSpace DPS by selecting ''Free LightSpace DPS (license & software)'' from ''Download Selection'' drop-down menu, and then install and activate the license.

If you have a colorimeter and a spectro then start the meter profiling initially:










*For Meter Profiling using LightSpace with Lumagen*

1) Set patch size window of Lumagen from File -> Upload menu.

2) Select the i1PRO2 from Tools -> Discovarable Probes.

3) Set i1PRO2 Settings from Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options. It will ask you to take a dark reading. After that enable the Average Low Light Measurement, set delay to 0.5 sec (for the meter to delay 0.5 sec before taking a measurement after each patch is displayed to your screen) and click OK to save.

4) Measure R,G,B,W with i1PRO2, go again to Options to start the measurements with i1PRO2......click the 'Measure All'...it will ask you to enter a name, name as ''i1PRO2" for example, then click OK and.....it will start measuring with your i1PRO2 the R,G,B,W patches. After that click Change probe to disconnect i1PRO2.

5) Select the i1Display PRO from @ Tools -> Discovarable Probes.

6) Set i1Display PRO Settings from Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options. Select integration time and meter mode, set delay to 0.5 sec and click OK to save.

7) Measure R,G,B,W with i1Display PRO, go again to Options to start the measurements with i1Display PRO; at Active Prove / Display Data it has to say NONE; then click the 'Measure All'...it will ask you to enter a name, name as ''i1Display PRO" for example, then click OK and it will start measuring with your i1Display PRO the R,G,B,W patches.

8) Enable the Meter Correction, now select at Active Prove / Data menu the 'i1Display Pro' and from Reference Probe / Display Presets the 'i1PRO2' and click OK to save...so now your correction is loaded to any i1Display PRO measurement.

LightSpace has many menus, many functions, because it's software used for many different market, this mean that you don't need to learn what each and every menu is doing since will never use them from HT display characterization.

*LightSpace Background*

In Post-Production/Film/Broadcasting industry, they were using LightSpace from 2009; doing display characterization taking one measurement per color point; no-one knew at HT area that time what was a 3D LUT....ChromaPure released @ August 2009 while CalMAN had version 3.0 out, which was able to take measurements of 11/21-Point Grayscale and 6 colors for CMS, nothing more.

CalMAN Studio entered lately to pro industry (July 2012) for 3D LUT with point-to-point AutoCAL 3D LUT (about 10 measurements per color point initially), which means real-time correction of each point and then moving to next one (which this affects nearby already corrected points) and then moved @ December 2014 to Lighting LUT which it as a display characterization using 68 measurements (17 per W,R,G,B) and improved from version to version. ChromaPure still hasn't moved to display characterization.

The reality is that the BaseLight TrueLight (released September 2003) is the oldest 3D LUT software but it's working only with their own color-grading system/meters, can't be used in HT, it's only for film/post-production applications. Another software has the Rising Sun Research CineSpace (released around 2002) changed to CineTal CineSpace (August 2008) - > later became THX CineSpace CineCube (April 2012) and discontinued... I had a chance at past to used a trial of this software.

But LightSpace's Chief Colour Scientist is the same person that developed the Colour Pipeline for Industrial Light & Magic (ILM: George's Lukas Motion Picture Effects Company), WETA Digital (Peter's Jackson Visual Effects Company) & Park Road Post (Peter's Jackson Post Production Facilities). It's the Chief Color Scientist responsible for the color science in TrueLight.

With simple words, with display characterization, you feed the engine of a software all the display measurements (the more points you measure...the better idea of display capabilities) and from the data a complete correction is generated for all the color points at once.

*3D LUT with LightSpace*

Back LightSpace operations for 3D LUT, these are the areas you can use, for HT users:

1) *File -> Upload:* Select your active external pattern generator and change it's settings

2) *Tools -> Discovarable Probe:* untick the virtual meter and tick your active meter.

3) *Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options:* Set your meter settings.

4) *Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface:* Take pre-post calibration measurements or manual measurements.

5) *Tools -> Calibration -> Display Characterization:* Use it to take measurements for display profiling....17-point cube etc... This is not working in DPS version of LightSpace.

6) *Tools -> ColorSpace -> ColorSpace Manager:* Here are saved all your measurements.

7) *Tools -> ColorSpace - Convert ColorSpace: *Here you perform the 3D LUT correction generation. (It's not working with DPS). You select @ Source your target Colorspace (for example REC.709) and at Destination you select your cube measurement file (one 17-Point cube measurement file for example)...When you click to 'Create New', it's generating the correction in 2-3 seconds only. From one measurement run you can generate as many corrections you like, for example with different gamma values or other colorspace etc.

*8) Upload the 3D LUT to Lumagen:* After the correction is created you only upload it to your 3D LUT hardware (using File - Upload for Lumagen) or export it to a file (for eeColor)

*Post-Verification Unique Capabilities*

Also you can you what your correction is doing in 1D LUT View or 3D LUT Viewer or use LUT Preview to load your own images to see what is happening to grayscale for example (if you load a grayscale ramp) with your correction applied, without taking any measurement, so this saves a lot of time from taking measurements and evaluating with real-patterns from your source. Also if you have a paid License of LightSpace before you buy any 3D LUT box, you can run a display characterization, generate the 3D LUT correction and then load that correction as active LUT to LightSpace and measure the post results...so LightSpace will load the correction to the generated patterns of it's software generation..so you can measure the end results for 3D LUT without having a 3D LUT Box.

The LUT Preview Menu opens a standard navigation window that enables the user to select any image to preview the active LUTs within LightSpace. Load any picture you like (TIFF,TGA,PNG etc.) that you will use as a reference.










This is an example of a 3D LUT correction problem, generated from other calibration software, It's easily visible but the limited (low number of meter color measurements) used for verification (for example 5-Point Luminance) has not possible to catch that issue. It's a APNG (Animated PNG 2 pictures are changing per 1sec, not all browsers support APNG playback, Firefox is supporting it for example.)










This comparison will show if there differences that can be noticed visually by the user and how the generated 3D LUT impacts the final result.










With 1D LUT Viewer you can see the 1D LUT (RGB channels) output of your 3D LUT correction, you can locate issues; clip/spikes....this is an example scaled, here you can see the high resolution picture (2160p).










With Cube Viewer you see the 3D LUT presentation of the generated correction, you can rotate, zoom etc....locating linearity problems or other issues; spare points at strange positions, this is an example scaled, here you can see the high resolution picture (2160p).

Here you can download an example correction (Zip file....use Save As), which you can import to LightSpace to be able to play with these 3 tools. Use File -> Import. Because you will use LightSpace DPS, it will add a 'demo' watermark, a large spike in 1D LUT and distortion in 3D LUT, so no use LUT Viewer, if you don't have a paid LightSpace.

About a measurement file, to see the graphs, you can import this file (Zip file....use Save As) using the ColorSpace Manager, to see some alternative presentations like: 

CIE Chart filtering of Stimulus levels:










or filtering of dE range:










or Gamut Saturation Coverage per Stimulus level (Gamut Triangle):










Drift Plot displays the plot any 'Drift' patches in a profile, to see the underlying stability of any given display/probe combination.

During display characterization procedure, when you have enabled the Drift Compensation feature with 20 value for example, LightSpace it takes a one White measurement per 20 other color patches and at the end you have the option to include (or not include) these data to the generation of the 3D LUT correction, for the 3D LUT correction to include the shifting from display drifting during the measurements, for the color engine to get better data and generate more accurate correction. This helps a lot projectors or Plasma/OLED which are not stable output during the thousands color points measurement procedure.

Here you see a Pioneer KURO, it's drifting over the time linear, starring with higher output which is dropped linear during the measurements, while the output is dropped, the chromaticity is changing a bit.










Using there 3 tools I have posted a lot of times errors of other calibration solutions, to help the users find out where is their problems, some examples:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...olor-processor-argyllcms-23.html#post54638254
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...x-artifacts-dark-areas-oled.html#post51508873
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-151.html#post50741265
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ast-calibration-questions-3.html#post50554769

All guides available on-line for LightSpace, about software or hardware there and always are up-to-date to cover any software change of latest released software features: http://www.lightillusion.com/tech_info.html

These days LightSpace is working on a color engine improvement, for displays with ‘issues’, especially those with poor gamut, and HDR PQ/HLG Rec2020 displays, so if someone with LightSpace has performed a 3D LUT some days before, he can just install the new version and generate a new colorspace conversion and then upload the new correction to his 3D LUT Box and measure the end results (to see for any improvement); no need to re-measure again if the profile is not so old.


----------



## anqgiap

Thanks Ted. This process is simple enough to follow. Questions, at these 2 steps:

4) Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface: Take pre-post calibration measurements or manual measurements.

5) Tools -> Calibration -> Display Characterization: Use it to take measurements for display profiling....17-point cube etc... This is not working in DPS version of LightSpace.

To take measurements, the software automatically pulls up the patterns and take measurements or it requires manual intervention?


----------



## thrang

Spoiler






ConnecTEDDD said:


> Start by downloading the free LightSpace DPS which your Lumagen work as patch generator and you can use any meter LightSpace support to take some measurements using the Tool -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface window, saturation, quick profile measurements etc.
> 
> Register here to receive a download link and free license for the LightSpace DPS by selecting ''Free LightSpace DPS (license & software)'' from ''Download Selection'' drop-down menu, and then install and activate the license.
> 
> If you have a colorimeter and a spectro then start the meter profiling initially:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *For Meter Profiling using LightSpace with Lumagen*
> 
> 1) Set patch size window of Lumagen from File -> Upload menu.
> 
> 2) Select the i1PRO2 from Tools -> Discovarable Probes.
> 
> 3) Set i1PRO2 Settings from Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options. It will ask you to take a dark reading. After that enable the Average Low Light Measurement, set delay to 0.5 sec (for the meter to delay 0.5 sec before taking a measurement after each patch is displayed to your screen) and click OK to save.
> 
> 4) Measure R,G,B,W with i1PRO2, go again to Options to start the measurements with i1PRO2......click the 'Measure All'...it will ask you to enter a name, name as ''i1PRO2" for example, then click OK and.....it will start measuring with your i1PRO2 the R,G,B,W patches. After that click Change probe to disconnect i1PRO2.
> 
> 5) Select the i1Display PRO from @ Tools -> Discovarable Probes.
> 
> 6) Set i1Display PRO Settings from Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options. Select integration time and meter mode, set delay to 0.5 sec and click OK to save.
> 
> 7) Measure R,G,B,W with i1Display PRO, go again to Options to start the measurements with i1Display PRO; at Active Prove / Display Data it has to say NONE; then click the 'Measure All'...it will ask you to enter a name, name as ''i1Display PRO" for example, then click OK and it will start measuring with your i1Display PRO the R,G,B,W patches.
> 
> 8) Enable the Meter Correction, now select at Active Prove / Data menu the 'i1Display Pro' and from Reference Probe / Display Presets the 'i1PRO2' and click OK to save...so now your correction is loaded to any i1Display PRO measurement.
> 
> LightSpace has many menus, many functions, because it's software used for many different market, this mean that you don't need to learn what each and every menu is doing since will never use them from HT display characterization.
> 
> *LightSpace Background*
> 
> In Post-Production/Film/Broadcasting industry, they were using LightSpace from 2009; doing display characterization taking one measurement per color point; no-one knew at HT area that time what was a 3D LUT....ChromaPure released @ August 2009 while CalMAN had version 3.0 out, which was able to take measurements of 11/21-Point Grayscale and 6 colors for CMS, nothing more.
> 
> CalMAN Studio entered lately to pro industry (July 2012) for 3D LUT with point-to-point AutoCAL 3D LUT (about 10 measurements per color point initially), which means real-time correction of each point and then moving to next one (which this affects nearby already corrected points) and then moved @ December 2014 to Lighting LUT which it as a display characterization using 68 measurements (17 per W,R,G,B) and improved from version to version. ChromaPure still hasn't moved to display characterization.
> 
> The reality is that the BaseLight TrueLight (released September 2003) is the oldest 3D LUT software but it's working only with their own color-grading system/meters, can't be used in HT, it's only for film/post-production applications. Another software has the Rising Sun Research CineSpace (released around 2002) changed to CineTal CineSpace (August 2008) - > later became THX CineSpace CineCube (April 2012) and discontinued... I had a chance at past to used a trial of this software.
> 
> But LightSpace's Chief Colour Scientist is the same person that developed the Colour Pipeline for Industrial Light & Magic (ILM: George's Lukas Motion Picture Effects Company), WETA Digital (Peter's Jackson Visual Effects Company) & Park Road Post (Peter's Jackson Post Production Facilities). It's the Chief Color Scientist responsible for the color science in TrueLight.
> 
> With simple words, with display characterization, you feed the engine of a software all the display measurements (the more points you measure...the better idea of display capabilities) and from the data a complete correction is generated for all the color points at once.
> 
> *3D LUT with LightSpace*
> 
> Back LightSpace operations for 3D LUT, these are the areas you can use, for HT users:
> 
> 1) *File -> Upload:* Select your active external pattern generator and change it's settings
> 
> 2) *Tools -> Discovarable Probe:* untick the virtual meter and tick your active meter.
> 
> 3) *Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options:* Set your meter settings.
> 
> 4) *Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface:* Take pre-post calibration measurements or manual measurements.
> 
> 5) *Tools -> Calibration -> Display Characterization:* Use it to take measurements for display profiling....17-point cube etc... This is not working in DPS version of LightSpace.
> 
> 6) *Tools -> ColorSpace -> ColorSpace Manager:* Here are saved all your measurements.
> 
> 7) *Tools -> ColorSpace - Convert ColorSpace: *Here you perform the 3D LUT correction generation. (It's not working with DPS). You select @ Source your target Colorspace (for example REC.709) and at Destination you select your cube measurement file (one 17-Point cube measurement file for example)...When you click to 'Create New', it's generating the correction in 2-3 seconds only. From one measurement run you can generate as many corrections you like, for example with different gamma values or other colorspace etc.
> 
> *8) Upload the 3D LUT to Lumagen:* After the correction is created you only upload it to your 3D LUT hardware (using File - Upload for Lumagen) or export it to a file (for eeColor)
> 
> *Post-Verification Unique Capabilities*
> 
> Also you can you what your correction is doing in 1D LUT View or 3D LUT Viewer or use LUT Preview to load your own images to see what is happening to grayscale for example (if you load a grayscale ramp) with your correction applied, without taking any measurement, so this saves a lot of time from taking measurements and evaluating with real-patterns from your source. Also if you have a paid License of LightSpace before you buy any 3D LUT box, you can run a display characterization, generate the 3D LUT correction and then load that correction as active LUT to LightSpace and measure the post results...so LightSpace will load the correction to the generated patterns of it's software generation..so you can measure the end results for 3D LUT without having a 3D LUT Box.
> 
> The LUT Preview Menu opens a standard navigation window that enables the user to select any image to preview the active LUTs within LightSpace. Load any picture you like (TIFF,TGA,PNG etc.) that you will use as a reference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an example of a 3D LUT correction problem, generated from other calibration software, It's easily visible but the limited (low number of meter color measurements) used for verification (for example 5-Point Luminance) has not possible to catch that issue. It's a APNG (Animated PNG 2 pictures are changing per 1sec, not all browsers support APNG playback, Firefox is supporting it for example.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comparison will show if there differences that can be noticed visually by the user and how the generated 3D LUT impacts the final result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With 1D LUT Viewer you can see the 1D LUT (RGB channels) output of your 3D LUT correction, you can locate issues; clip/spikes....this is an example scaled, here you can see the high resolution picture (2160p).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Cube Viewer you see the 3D LUT presentation of the generated correction, you can rotate, zoom etc....locating linearity problems or other issues; spare points at strange positions, this is an example scaled, here you can see the high resolution picture (2160p).
> 
> Here you can download an example correction (Zip file....use Save As), which you can import to LightSpace to be able to play with these 3 tools. Use File -> Import. Because you will use LightSpace DPS, it will add a 'demo' watermark, a large spike in 1D LUT and distortion in 3D LUT, so no use LUT Viewer, if you don't have a paid LightSpace.
> 
> About a measurement file, to see the graphs, you can import this file (Zip file....use Save As) using the ColorSpace Manager, to see some alternative presentations like:
> 
> CIE Chart filtering of Stimulus levels:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or filtering of dE range:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or Gamut Saturation Coverage per Stimulus level (Gamut Triangle):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drift Plot displays the plot any 'Drift' patches in a profile, to see the underlying stability of any given display/probe combination.
> 
> During display characterization procedure, when you have enabled the Drift Compensation feature with 20 value for example, LightSpace it takes a one White measurement per 20 other color patches and at the end you have the option to include (or not include) these data to the generation of the 3D LUT correction, for the 3D LUT correction to include the shifting from display drifting during the measurements, for the color engine to get better data and generate more accurate correction. This helps a lot projectors or Plasma/OLED which are not stable output during the thousands color points measurement procedure.
> 
> Here you see a Pioneer KURO, it's drifting over the time linear, starring with higher output which is dropped linear during the measurements, while the output is dropped, the chromaticity is changing a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using there 3 tools I have posted a lot of times errors of other calibration solutions, to help the users find out where is their problems, some examples:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...olor-processor-argyllcms-23.html#post54638254
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...x-artifacts-dark-areas-oled.html#post51508873
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms-151.html#post50741265
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ast-calibration-questions-3.html#post50554769
> 
> All guides available on-line for LightSpace, about software or hardware there and always are up-to-date to cover any software change of latest released software features: http://www.lightillusion.com/tech_info.html
> 
> These days LightSpace is working on a color engine improvement, for displays with ‘issues’, especially those with poor gamut, and HDR PQ/HLG Rec2020 displays, so if someone with LightSpace has performed a 3D LUT some days before, he can just install the new version and generate a new colorspace conversion and then upload the new correction to his 3D LUT Box and measure the end results (to see for any improvement); no need to re-measure again if the profile is not so old.






Genuinely appreciated, but 










This is precisely what I'm referring to...

Can anyone name three calibrators in the New York region that are legitimate experts in this software?


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## ConnecTEDDD

thrang said:


> Genuinely appreciated, but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely what I'm referring to...
> 
> Can anyone name three calibrators in the New York region that are legitimate experts in this software?


Try the LightSpace DPS to see for yourself, it's not so difficult, just I posted the detailed instructions for all (not only for you). If you check it; you will see that it's not so complex, any new software layout need some time from the user to see how it works. The same large instructions text it will have if I describe you very detailed how to do it with CalMAN or ChromaPure.

Can you name 3 NY calibrators who perform 3D LUT's? (with any software)...I don't know any....HT tour calibrators rarely perform 3D LUT generally, ISF/THX class is poorly teaching 3D LUT any.

D-Nice, David Abrams are using LightSpace from the calibrators I know, maybe others, but look there: https://www.lightillusion.com/customers.html

Do you see the icons or Deluxe, FotoKem, Light Iron, ''Company 3'' (is at the name list) and Techicolor....look imdb.com....pick any movie randomly










See Laboratory....all movies mastered by these 5 major facilities....this is why I don't care so much which in NY use LightSpace, it doesn't matter... 

David Abrams is performing a lot of 3D LUT's in L.A. area to post-production houses.


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## ConnecTEDDD

anqgiap said:


> Thanks Ted. This process is simple enough to follow. Questions, at these 2 steps:
> 
> 4) Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface: Take pre-post calibration measurements or manual measurements.
> 
> 5) Tools -> Calibration -> Display Characterization: Use it to take measurements for display profiling....17-point cube etc... This is not working in DPS version of LightSpace.
> 
> To take measurements, the software automatically pulls up the patterns and take measurements or it requires manual intervention?


All patterns are displayed automatically by connected pattern generator (Lumagen in our case)

For manual measurements I mean that you can do simple measurements of specific grayscale/colors for calibration using display internal controls (Calibration Interface -> Measure....and use the RGB sliders). 

For auto measurement runs, use Calibration Interface -> Profile...and to the window it will open you select what measurement run you want.


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## collinp

ConnecTEDDD said:


> See Laboratory....all movies mastered by these 5 major facilities....this is why I don't care so much which in NY use LightSpace, it doesn't matter...


I don't think thrang was questioning Lighspace's credentials. I think he was asking for NY area references so he could hire one of them to do this for him.


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## ConnecTEDDD

collinp said:


> I don't think thrang was questioning Lighspace's credentials. I think he was asking for NY area references so he could hire one of them to do this for him.


Hi, here is the thread for that question: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...s-where-you-located-please-post-here-135.html


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## anqgiap

thrang said:


> Genuinely appreciated, but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely what I'm referring to...
> 
> Can anyone name three calibrators in the New York region that are legitimate experts in this software?


No pain - no gain 

Personally I would rather spend a little bit of time to learn and do this myself so I don't have to go by someone else schedule and I can calibrate as many time as I see fit. It's not rocket science, just need patience and advises from users like Ted or the software vendor if you run into problems or have questions.


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## jrp

We are making changes to the HDR Intensity Mapping. 

- We are doubling the range of the Transition parameter (will be 0 to 14). In my testing, and people reporting back using the Alpha release with double Transition range, allowing Transition to be a much higher percentage of the Source Max Mastering Level significantly improves the highlights. Note that this change has very little effect if you leave Transition in the current 0 to 7 range (there may be a small effect depending on your parameters, but I believe you would not need to make changes due to this).

- We are doubling the range of the Shape parameter (will be 0 to 14) to have a larger effect with the new larger Transition values. Before Shape's effect was reduced as Transition got larger. Now Shape can have a significant effect even with the new maximum Transition value of 14. Several people have asked us why in a HDR to linear plot the HDR Intensity Mapping response is not an "S-Curve." I have explained in an earlier post why an HDR to linear graph should not be used to evaluate a video transfer function. However, I have always been considering allow a "convex down curve" at the top end of the transfer function (verses the current linear response). This would make the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping curve allow for a slower "roll-off" of Transfer response near the top end and may improve the image. A side effect of this doubling of the Shape range is that the response may look more like the HDR to linear graph "S curve" when using large values of both Transition and Shape (which may become the new recommendation for 4000 nit titles). Note that with current values of shape and Transition, the response curve is very similar (but not exactly the same).

- When we were developing the HDR Intensity Mapping I looked at using MaxCLL in the transfer function equations. At the time I decided to use just Source Max Mastering level thinking it would represent the maximum level well. It turns out this is not the case for some movies. For example on disc Mad Max Fury Road has a Source Max Mastering Level of 4000 but a MaxCLL of 9919. While I have not found the scene that has the 9919 nit pixel(s) in Fury Road, we do see many scenes running above the Source Max Master Level of 4000 (and had accounted for this by adding in headroom). I looked at a number of movies with different Source Max and MaxCLL values and came up with a function to blend these two to give an even better (IMO) equation for HDR Intensity Mapping. For every movie I evaluated using the new equations either maintained the same quality image, or for most movies improved the image verses the current release. So the next release will use both the Source Max Master Level and MaxCLL in the HDR Intensity Mapping equations. I believe this will further separate the quality of HDR through the Radiance Pro verses any other HDR solution (but admit we need to get customer feedback as I have some modicum of bias favoring the Radiance Pro).

- Even with the current software release I have never set the HDR Intensity Mapping Clip parameter to anything other than zero, except to test it. In order to provide the best capability for increasing the Transition and Shape values we have decided to eliminate the Clip parameter. We feel the expanded range for Transition and Shape effectively eliminates the need for Clip and as far as we know everyone is using Clip = 0 in any case. Certainly that is what I have suggested to anyone who asked. If you feel Clip is an essential feature for HDR Intensity Mapping let us know, but we are planning to remove it from the next release. A storm of protests might make us rethink, but I do not expect any push back.


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## thrang

@jrp

Seems like significant changes....when might we see a beta?


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## jrp

thrang said:


> @jrp
> 
> Seems like significant changes....when might we see a beta?


Maybe Tuesday (8/22).


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## sillysally

thrang said:


> This is precisely what I'm referring to...
> 
> Can anyone name three calibrators in the New York region that are legitimate experts in this software?


thrang, yes I agree with you about all the examples Ted is showing.
Most of the tools you will never use if you want the best PQ.

There are two main factors in using LightSpace.
1. Is setting up your pre calibration (Gamma, White point, Contrast, color, brightness and any backlight your projector may, have). just like you would do with any calibration software. 
Of course that is saying your projector has those settings. If your projector doesn't have those setting then you are sol. Because LightSpace will overwrite any pre calibration grayscale settings you use in the Pro.
2. Once you have made a profile, then you experiment with the different rolloff settings for HDR 3DLUTs. Load the new 3DLUT's into the memory's in the pro and view to compare. 
Making a 3DLUT from the profile only takes a few seconds and once you enter in your rolloff and peak white point (experiment ) and if you want peak chroma, fix chroma, fit chroma , its all automatic making the 3DLUT.

However if your projector process the 'metadata' like a flat screen, then it becomes very problematic.

ss


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## sillysally

Light Illusion said:


> And external calibration will not diminish, unless TV manufacturers add full 3D LUT based internal calibration.
> 
> Steve


Do you consider the internal processing of a flat screen like the LG OLED C7 for HDR as having 3DLUT based processing for metadata.

What I am finding is that the internal processing of metadata like the LG OLED's, are having issues with adding a external processor like the pro using a 3DLUT. Then sending that processed 3DLUT to reprocessed the metadata by the internal processor of the LG OLED.

As far as I know the only process you can turn off in the C7 OLED is dynamic tone mapping.
I know you posted that it is possible to disable metadata in a LG OLED's service menu, but so far I haven't been able to find anybody that knows how to turn off metadata. 
Including you and Ted.

ss


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> Do you consider the internal processing of a flat screen like the LG OLED C7 for HDR as having 3DLUT based processing for metadata.
> 
> What I am finding is that the internal processing of metadata like the LG OLED's, are having issues with adding a external processor like the pro using a 3DLUT. Then sending that processed 3DLUT to reprocessed the metadata by the internal processor of the LG OLED.
> 
> As far as I know the only process you can turn off in the C7 OLED is dynamic tone mapping.
> I know you posted that it is possible to disable metadata in a LG OLED's service menu, but so far I haven't been able to find anybody that knows how to turn off metadata.
> Including you and Ted.
> 
> ss


To make sure it is clear, we recommend setting the Pro output CMS Colorspace = SDR2020 for HDR source. With this setting the TV/projector is in SDR mode and not HDR mode. In other words all the TV/projector processing for HDR is disabled since it thinks the source is SDR.

Then the choice for calibration is to use the 3D LUT for the HDR to SDR conversion (currently requires Lightspace) and then HDR Intensity Mapping to tune the results, or use the HDR Intensity Mapping hardware to put the HDR into a SDR container and then you would do a SDR2020 calibration to a straight Gamma = 2.4.


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## sillysally

jrp said:


> To make sure it is clear, we recommend setting the Pro output CMS Colorspace = SDR2020 for HDR source. With this setting the TV/projector is in SDR mode and not HDR mode. In other words all the TV/projector processing for HDR is disabled since it thinks the source is SDR.
> 
> Then the choice for calibration is to use the 3D LUT for the HDR to SDR conversion (currently requires Lightspace) and then HDR Intensity Mapping to tune the results, or use the HDR Intensity Mapping hardware to put the HDR into a SDR container and then you would do a SDR2020 calibration to a straight Gamma = 2.4.


Yes I understand that and have done the same. 
The issue is.
1. Using the C7 OLED to process the megadata will do a better job than a HDR to SDR 3DLUT (using a 9200+ patch profile) to make a 17x3 3DLUT.
2. The 444x doesn't handle 4000 nit Blu Rays very well if run in pass though mode. It seems to raise the floor from .005 to a higher level. Makes the HDR disc, in this case Ghost in the shell UHD, washed out in some dark scenes.
See this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...ell-ultra-hd-blu-ray-review.html#post54318041

Also there is this to consider. http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...ww.lg.com/us/support/product...OLED%20TVs.pdf
Using LightSpace and the 444x will overwrite any grayscale setting you put into the 444x before downloading the 3DLUT. 
Also sending a SDR type video signal, voids out using the HDR adjustment points and self generated dynamic tone mapping.

Then there is DV calibration for the 2017 LG OLED's, as you know the 444x will not be able to process DV.

So that just leaves the 444x to handle SDR 3DLUT's, and yes you will end up with better PQ than just a normal type of calibration.

ss


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## alex_t

sillysally said:


> Yes I understand that and have done the same.
> The issue is.
> 1. Using the C7 OLED to process the megadata will do a better job than a HDR to SDR 3DLUT (using a 9200+ patch profile) to make a 17x3 3DLUT.
> 2. The 444x doesn't handle 4000 nit Blu Rays very well if run in pass though mode. It seems to raise the floor from .005 to a higher level. Makes the HDR disc, in this case Ghost in the shell UHD, washed out in some dark scenes.
> See this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...ell-ultra-hd-blu-ray-review.html#post54318041
> 
> Also there is this to consider. http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...ww.lg.com/us/support/product...OLED%20TVs.pdf
> Using LightSpace and the 444x will overwrite any grayscale setting you put into the 444x before downloading the 3DLUT.
> Also sending a SDR type video signal, voids out using the HDR adjustment points and self generated dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> Then there is DV calibration for the 2017 LG OLED's, as you know the 444x will not be able to process DV.
> 
> So that just leaves the 444x to handle SDR 3DLUT's, and yes you will end up with better PQ than just a normal type of calibration.
> 
> ss


Hello,

Have you tested if by sending SDR/REC709 (instead of SDR/REC2020) you can reach the max peak and select the wider gamut of your display ? It could be a solution to bypass all of the internal processing run by the display ... (it is a just a question, I don't know at all your display). If it was the case, you could then use HDR intensity mapping in conjunction with a 3DLUT REC2020 with gamma 2.4 (or 2.2).


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## ConnecTEDDD

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> Have you tested if by sending SDR/REC709 (instead of SDR/REC2020) you can reach the max peak and select the wider gamut of your display ? It could be a solution to bypass all of the internal processing run by the display ... (it is a just a question, I don't know at all your display). If it was the case, you could then use HDR intensity mapping in conjunction with a 3DLUT REC2020 with gamma 2.4 (or 2.2).


Hi Alex,

I have tested that @ November 2016, using an LG E6 OLED, sending a custom EDID to OPPO (using HD Linker) to lock and output HDR-10 and the display to not enter to HDR mode, because I had configured to not send metadata to display the same time. so LG had it's widest gamut available but only 450nits calibrated, while with HDR mode active it has outputing 680 nits calibrated. So the output was not enough with that trick. 

But SS can check what it's the highest out of his 2017 LG without HDR-10 activated to compare with the peak output I got from 2016 model.


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## LJG

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hi, here is the thread for that question: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...s-where-you-located-please-post-here-135.html





thrang said:


> Genuinely appreciated, but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely what I'm referring to...
> 
> Can anyone name three calibrators in the New York region that are legitimate experts in this software?


I think calibrators using Lighspace question should be specific to calibrators using lightspace with Lumagem Pro and therefore this is the correct area to post. Since Jim has spoken about the qualities of Lightspace vs Chromapure in HDR 3D Lut calibrations. Therefore this is the relevant place to discuss professional calibrators who are experts in Lightspace. I know I for one am interested in this. Thank you Thrang for asking. I think this should not be taken as an insult but compliment.


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## SJHT

Gordon's original guide is still what we need expanded. Showing what options to select assuming SDR2020 going out to the projector for HDR2020 sources (also having SDR709 sources and output as well in the guide). Step by step for both setting up the Lumagen Pro and what options to select in Lightspace. Just showing me a picture of a Lightspace screen with the correct options and what the results would look like. Understanding there will be some differences. My attempts at just doing 3D LUTs in Lightspace (just for SDR709) turn out looking like a mess compared to the perfect cubes in the instructions. Likely just picking the wrong options.... Calman yields better results. SJ


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## thrang

LJG said:


> I think calibrators using Lighspace question should be specific to calibrators using lightspace with Lumagem Pro and therefore this is the correct area to post. Since Jim has spoken about the qualities of Lightspace vs Chromapure in HDR 3D Lut calibrations. Therefore this is the relevant place to discuss professional calibrators who are experts in Lightspace. I know I for one am interested in this. Thank you Thrang for asking. I think this should not be taken as an insult but compliment.


Thanks Lon - correct, no insult though I will say the inquiry is 90% straight info request and 10% pointed stick....It appears Lightpace is so complex and confusing most calibrators don't use it. If that's true, how can it be expected the home enthusiast has a breathing chance?


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## Wookii

SJHT said:


> Gordon's original guide is still what we need expanded. Showing what options to select assuming SDR2020 going out to the projector for HDR2020 sources (also having SDR709 sources and output as well in the guide). Step by step for both setting up the Lumagen Pro and what options to select in Lightspace. Just showing me a picture of a Lightspace screen with the correct options and what the results would look like. Understanding there will be some differences. My attempts at just doing 3D LUTs in Lightspace (just for SDR709) turn out looking like a mess compared to the perfect cubes in the instructions. Likely just picking the wrong options.... Calman yields better results. SJ


Without wishing to speak for him, Gordon is an incredibly busy guy. It is perhaps a little unfair to expect him to provide such a guide.

Really the onus is on Steve at Lightspace to provide a more simplistic guide for the prospective enthusiast calibrator if he wants to sell more user licences. The Lightspace website is an excellent resource, with lots of useful articles and guides on it, but they all assume a fair degree of initial understanding with regards to colour science and calibration. 

What is lacking is a 'point and click'/'painting by numbers' guide to performing a complete 3D LUT calibration using Lightspace, that assumes no prior knowledge of the reader/user - that would allow the uninitiated to establish that first basic understanding of the software and how it functions, and perform a first calibration.

I have been calibrating with Calman for years, and I can clearly see the benefit of Lightspace having a flexible and open front end, and I'd love to make the switch, however each time I try and fire it up, the interface feels fairly impenetrable. A good simplistic user guide would provide that trail of bread crumbs to break down those initial barriers, and probably save me two days groping in the dark with it.


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## Eventidal

For those liking to buy a lightspace licence, Steve suggested the other day to make a group buy with forum members. If we reach ten+ users he would give us a decent discount. Contact me by PM and I will start collecting requests.


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## thrang

Eventidal said:


> For those liking to buy a lightspace licence, Steve suggested the other day to make a group buy with forum members. If we reach ten+ users he would give us a decent discount. Contact me by PM and I will start collecting requests.


I will be organizing a group buy on a Siemen's Magnetom C MRI system for those interested and willing invest in a little learning curve...


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## ConnecTEDDD

LJG said:


> Since Jim has spoken about the qualities of Lightspace vs Chromapure in HDR 3D Lut calibrations. Therefore this is the relevant place to discuss professional calibrators who are experts in Lightspace.


Hi, LightSpace support 3D LUT for HDR from March 2015 when they started to use ai LightIron and other major post-production houses the Sony BVM-X300 OLED and they wanted parametric HDR gamma to clip to specific nits.

Current ChromaPure it's not supporting even simple measurements to display Color Errors (dE) in HDR, obvisously no HDR AutoCAL. It's capable to display dE for HDR Grayscale only, not for any Color measurement. The good news is that there plans from ChromaPure to add HDR AutoCAL in a couple of weeks.

So I don't believe Jim has ever commented about HDR 3D LUT between LightSpace and Chromapure, because that feature doesn't exist to ChromaPure.


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## tspotorno

thrang said:


> I will be organizing a group buy on a Siemen's Magnetom C MRI system for those interested and willing invest in a little learning curve...


LOL Well I'd be interested in the group buy...

I do not see what the issue is with getting a simple guide. Install a screen snapshot utility (Like SnagIt), and then as you select options take screenshots and post them in a pdf or something. I've seen lots of manuals done like this.

Only need a line or two on each one to say what is going on. Pretty sure that one guide would sell a lot of software!


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

SJHT said:


> Gordon's original guide is still what we need expanded. Showing what options to select assuming SDR2020 going out to the projector for HDR2020 sources (also having SDR709 sources and output as well in the guide). Step by step for both setting up the Lumagen Pro and what options to select in Lightspace. Just showing me a picture of a Lightspace screen with the correct options and what the results would look like. Understanding there will be some differences. My attempts at just doing 3D LUTs in Lightspace (just for SDR709) turn out looking like a mess compared to the perfect cubes in the instructions. Likely just picking the wrong options.... Calman yields better results. SJ





Wookii said:


> Without wishing to speak for him, Gordon is an incredibly busy guy. It is perhaps a little unfair to expect him to provide such a guide.
> 
> Really the onus is on Steve at Lightspace to provide a more simplistic guide for the prospective enthusiast calibrator if he wants to sell more user licences. The Lightspace website is an excellent resource, with lots of useful articles and guides on it, but they all assume a fair degree of initial understanding with regards to colour science and calibration.
> 
> What is lacking is a 'point and click'/'painting by numbers' guide to performing a complete 3D LUT calibration using Lightspace, that assumes no prior knowledge of the reader/user - that would allow the uninitiated to establish that first basic understanding of the software and how it functions, and perform a first calibration.
> 
> I have been calibrating with Calman for years, and I can clearly see the benefit of Lightspace having a flexible and open front end, and I'd love to make the switch, however each time I try and fire it up, the interface feels fairly impenetrable. A good simplistic user guide would provide that trail of bread crumbs to break down those initial barriers, and probably save me two days groping in the dark with it.


Hi guys.

Since HDR for displays is impossible (because internal processing can't be bypassed), the only market for 3D LUT Box which supports HDR is Lumagen PRO, the only one choice in consumer world, because it has HDCP 2.2 support and HDMI 2.0a input/output.

There is a much better and cheaper 3D LUT Box (without scalling and enhancements) that can be used for HDR (HDR 3D LUT in post production don't require metadata, so no need to support HDMI 2.0a) in professional world, the FSI LUT Box which has 4096-Point Input 1D LUT that can be used as a Shaper LUT to create amazing smoothly ST.2084 curves where you can clip to exact nits you want, 33-Point 3D LUT Cube and Output 1D LUT than can be used to calibrated it first...(LightSpace has helped FSI a lot to design that box) but it doesn't have HDMI input-output and not support HDCP in case someone try to use SDI to HDMI converters....so we can't use in HT world.....Just naming that 3D LUT Box for Lumagen crew to see the importance of adding at least a 1024 adjustable (10-bit) Input 1D LUT to Lumagen PRO and increase the 3D LUT size in the future.....since it will require a lot of new space probably not currently available, there can be added an option to select between 6x 17-Point slots or 2x 33-Point, so this will cover all setups.

17-Point is a good size for SDR, to cover 0-100 nits but very small to cover 0-10.000 nits, it will be required an increase of 3D LUT and 1D LUT for more accurate final results.

So when you have only 21-Points to follow PQ transfer function; the adjustment points have very large distance between them, so even a very smooth generated roll-off from LightSpace for example, it will be not possible to be reproduced when it will be uploaded to Lumagen PRO memory. An exact clip (or roll-off starting) to specific nits it will possible.

See how the 21-Points 1D LUT matching the absolute values of ST-2048 for HDR:

64 -> 0 nits
108 -> 0.61 nits
152 -> 0.33 nits
196 -> 1.01 nits
240 -> 2.47 nits
284 -> 5.24 nits
328 -> 10.21 nits
372 -> 18.78 nits
416 -> 33.1 nits
460 -> 56.55 nits
504 -> 94.38 nits
544 -> 148.03 nits
588 -> 239.81 nits
632 -> 384.71 nits
676 -> 613.08 nits
720 -> 973.13 nits
764 -> 1542.21 nits
808 -> 2445.67 nits
852 -> 3848.17 nits
896 -> 6214.61 nits
940 -> 10000 nits

Currently since Lumagen's PRO for 3D LUT HDR are being used from projector users only which with luminance range to cover 0-200 nits, it's not an issue the 21-Point 1D LUT (which is still Output LUT in Lumagen and not Input 1D LUT AFIK), but it will be issue in the future once we will found ways to bypass the displays internal tone/gamut mapping and use Lumagen there for HDR-10 3D LUT HDR display profilings and people will start buying Lumagen PRO for OLED/QLED/LED-LCD etc.

The users of Lumagen with high brightness projectors who want 3D LUT HDR color correction, their only software choice is LightSpace, because ChromaPure don't support 3D LUT yet for HDR and CalMAN still don't even support simple HDR patch generation for Lumagen PRO. (they are suggesting to use external patch generator until this fixed)

I believe the best way for all to have less problems, for current customers who have spend money for Lumagen PRO and customers which thinking to get Lumagen PRO, is from Lumagen who has the projector setups to their test facilities to pause some other important operations and spend a few days only to write a guide for 3D LUT HDR calibration step-by-step, one for JVC and one for Sony projector, or generally additional 2-3 suggestion of final steps for the high-brightness models the most users who have bought Lumagen PRO are using. So this will be very helpful and save a lot of hours from home enthusiasts.

It will be a reason for new people to get Lumagen PRO also, since they will know exact what to do, or have a great guidance to start.

I don't have an HDR projection system with Lumagen PRO to write that guide for you guys, if you have problems with LightSpace, contact me here: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html ....send me details about what you don't understand and what problems you are facing and I will try to provide you some help. I will need pre/post calibration quick profile of primary colors measurements, the cube file of the profiling measurement (collect them all to a zip file), meter settings, I'm talking for SDR calibrations where I have practical, field and theoritical knowledge. For HDR 3D LUT with Lumagen PRO, since I haven't performed this myself, I have theoretical knowledge only. I prefer to give advise and solutions to stuff I have personally tested which I can guarantee 100% success, than from giving theoretical advises that 'may' help.

This is the reason its required a complete Lumagen PRO guide for HDR from experts who has large practical/field knowledge to that topic and have faced problems in real-world trying stuff.


----------



## Light Illusion

sillysally said:


> As far as I know the only process you can turn off in the C7 OLED is dynamic tone mapping.
> I know you posted that it is possible to disable metadata in a LG OLED's service menu, but so far I haven't been able to find anybody that knows how to turn off metadata.
> Including you and Ted.


We do not provide that information as if used it is possible to cause major damage to an LG TV...
We have to leave the users to research and define if they want to proceed.

However, if you do use this mode, setting 'HDR Enable to On' the EOTF remains essentially a standard gamma function (e.g. 2.2).

In other words, you will not see a PQ type response with clipping instead of a roll off - you just get a very bright TV with standard gamma response.
(This works for HDR calibration, but just a point of clarification as some people expected to see PQ with clipping in this mode and that isn’t the case.)

Without 'HDR Enable set to On' the TV will max out at about 400 nits.

But, be warned, with 'HDR Enable set to Off' the display will typically see 600 to 750 nits peak luminance.
There is no issue at SDR levels, but at HDR levels there real potential issues, so small test patches (L20 for example) are suggested.
And at these HDR levels burn-in happens very, very fast - you have been warned!

We therefore do not suggest users do anything beyond short profile sequences (Quick Profiles?) because any long profile will likely damage the TV.
Even too many Quick Profiles with small patches can be problematic - and cause irreversible burn-in.
(There is no way around this as it is not peak values that are the issue - any patch above a nominal SDR 100 nits can cause issues!)

When playing back real HDR footage there is little issue as the, image changes quickly, with little time spend on static high luma scenes, as happens with any form of calibration.

That does make HDR calibration a real problem.

You have been warned!

Steve


----------



## sillysally

Light Illusion said:


> But, be warned, with 'HDR Enable set to Off' the display will typically see 600 to 750 nits peak luminance.
> There is no issue at SDR levels, but at HDR levels there real potential issues, so small test patches (L20 for example) are suggested.
> And at these HDR levels burn-in happens very, very fast - you have been warned!
> 
> When playing back real HDR footage there is little issue as the, image changes quickly, with little time spend on static high luma scenes, as happens with any form of calibration.
> 
> That does make HDR calibration a real problem.
> 
> You have been warned!
> 
> Steve


Thanks Steve, very nice post.
Yes I can understand why there is a real possibility of burn in. 

What about doing this??
Using a K10-A set with no extra delay and maybe using extra delay for dark patches, making a custom patch set using Mikes tools (bright/dim patches). Use a 5% window, onscreen for the K10. And of course using LightSpace for the profile and 3DLUT.
However I guess I would not be able to use drift compensation.

ss


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

sillysally said:


> Thanks Steve, very nice post.
> Yes I can understand why there is a real possibility of burn in.
> 
> What about doing this??
> Using a K10-A set with no extra delay and maybe using extra delay for dark patches, making a custom patch set using Mikes tools (bright/dim patches). Use a 5% window, onscreen for the K10. And of course using LightSpace for the profile and 3DLUT.
> However I guess I would not be able to use drift compensation.
> 
> ss


Hi SS,

You will loose your time with LG in HDR mode, it's very unstable, at least the 2016 E6 I tested, If you see the drift chart of LightSpace, it has +-15nits difference at it's luminance levels output during the profiling...30 nits in total is very high when you measure the same patch multiple times.......in closed loop using 10-Point Cube Anisometric with K-10A, 0.5sec delay.

BTW L20 means 4% Window (16:9) Patch.


----------



## sillysally

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hi SS,
> 
> You will loose your time with LG in HDR mode, it's very unstable, at least the 2016 E6 I tested, If you see the drift chart of LightSpace, it has +-15nits difference at it's luminance levels output during the profiling...30 nits in total is very high when you measure the same patch multiple times.......in closed loop using 10-Point Cube Anisometric with K-10A, 0.5sec delay.
> 
> BTW L20 means 4% Window (16:9) Patch.


Hello Ted.

I am just looking into any possibility.
After looking at LG's 2017 calibration notes, and seeing what happens when you turn off self generated dynamic tone mapping for HDR. It became apparent that megadata also would need to be off to run a profile/3DLUT.

And doing a HDR to SDR 3DLUT will only degrade the PQ for HDR video, when using the 444x and the LG OLED.

Jim needs to refine HDR pass through for the 444x also. 

ss


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

sillysally said:


> Hello Ted.
> 
> I am just looking into any possibility.
> After looking at LG's 2017 calibration notes, and seeing what happens when you turn off self generated dynamic tone mapping for HDR. It became apparent that megadata also would need to be off to run a profile/3DLUT.
> 
> And doing a HDR to SDR 3DLUT will only degrade the PQ for HDR video, when using the 444x and the LG OLED.
> 
> Jim needs to refine HDR pass through for the 444x also.
> 
> ss


Hey SS,

for 3D LUT HDR, when you generate the patterns, since that you have to send metadata to enable the display HDR-10 mode, if you use for example the classic 1000 nit max, 1000 MaxCLL and 400 MaxFALL to trigger the display HDR-10 mode which this will enable also the internal tone mapping, when at the end you will playback any content you have to always send that same fixed metadata infoframe, exact the same you used for patch generation. and never enable any internal dynamic frame processing, any additional processing from the display (additionally from the work it's applying with the fixed metadata you send already), it will affect the display response so it will undo your calibration frame per frame.

When there will be a way to enable HDR mode of the display without sending metadata, and you will calibrated with normal patterns (without sending metadata), when you will playback movies you have to block any movie to send any metadata to the display.

All these to a perfect world, when you find a stable display at it's HDR mode, as you see below LG OLED 2016 is very bad example:

Here you see the Drift Plot of a 10-Point Cube, it took 17 minutes to be completed, the peak output of the LG was drifting +-15 nits, the graph is displaying +-2.5 nits range:










During the profiling LightSpace was taking 1 White measurement patch per 20 other color patches, for it's Drift Compensation algorithm.

Just for comparison, see how an Epson LS-10000 projector is drifting during the profiling (very stable device):










While the Luminance output is stable, the blue channel is changing and this affecting a bit the chromaticity, but this will be fixed by LightSpace during the colorspace correction generation.

From all the others calibration solutions, the only one which has something similar is the DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS which is displaying a white patch for drift per 100 other patches (which is fixed to 100 number), it's not giving the capability to enter custom values like LightSpace (10,20,30,50,80 etc...) or display any plot.....and the most important is that it's not supporting any Lumagen device.


----------



## Nudgiator

That's very interesting stuff especially because I plan to buy a Panasonic OLED tv very soon. As fas as I understand the last postings it seems to be nearly impossible to calibrate an OLED without destroying it. So, what are the manufactures of the OLEDs doing inside of the factory to calibrate HDR??? And I also think that it would be very problematic too to use real 2000 nits test patterns regarding a Sony LCD/LED. I fear the LEDs will be burnt too.


----------



## thrang

Hoping we see the new firmware today!


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Nudgiator said:


> That's very interesting stuff especially because I plan to buy a Panasonic OLED tv very soon. As fas as I understand the last postings it seems to be nearly impossible to calibrate an OLED without destroying it. So, what are the manufactures of the OLEDs doing inside of the factory to calibrate HDR??? And I also think that it would be very problematic too to use real 2000 nits test patterns regarding a Sony LCD/LED. I fear the LEDs will be burnt too.


Hi, HDR TV's have still gamma based architecture internally, so any HDR mode is just an offset layer added to their gamma based response.

I don't think consumer TV companies they have to care about how to do HDR 3D LUT since they know that it's impossible fro any consumer to do this. Only a small percentage of consumer TV's users are calibrating their displays, the most TV's sold are most users are using for years the factory modes, any any inaccurate mode that looks more colorful and fancy.


----------



## thrang

Playing with a pre-release of upcoming firmware update, and I see lots of improvements in shadow and highlight details, and because of this, a subtle but noticeable benefit of more nuanced color

The image, in total, seems more refined and detailed because of this


----------



## Nudgiator

A chart of the HDR gamma curve would be nice. Then we could say more about any improvements 🙂


----------



## Nudgiator

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hi, HDR TV's have still gamma based architecture internally, so any HDR mode is just an offset layer added to their gamma based response.
> 
> I don't think consumer TV companies they have to care about how to do HDR 3D LUT since they know that it's impossible fro any consumer to do this. Only a small percentage of consumer TV's users are calibrating their displays, the most TV's sold are most users are using for years the factory modes, any any inaccurate mode that looks more colorful and fancy.


 @Ted
Unfortunately you are true, TED. JVC is exactly doing that with their projectors too 😢


----------



## KarlKlammer

Nudgiator said:


> A chart of the HDR gamma curve would be nice. Then we could say more about any improvements 🙂


I would have done it, if someone had provided me with a link.
But I guess, since I started this, I'm the bad guy that couldn't be trusted with another pre-release.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 082117*

*FW Beta 082117*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 082117*
(replaced 082117 from earlier today due to finding a couple more bugs) 
Several HDR intensity mapping improvements were made which allowed removal of clipping setting and expanded range of transition setting to 0-15. 
Intensity mapping now makes use of Source Max Content Light Level if available. 
New setting, *Input: Options: HDR Setup: Min Offset* has been added to allow automatic correction of an HDR source minimum offset of .005 nits. 
To avoid any issue with your current calibration, Min Offset is 'Off' when updating but a factory reset will default it to 'Auto'. 
Fix for not always updating with input colorspace change. 
Fix for inability so select zone 5-10 when outputs 5-10 are installed. 
Fixed bug in Auto Input Selection menu command. 
Other bugfixes. 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> Playing with a pre-release of upcoming firmware update, and I see lots of improvements in shadow and highlight details, and because of this, a subtle but noticeable benefit of more nuanced color
> 
> The image, in total, seems more refined and detailed because of this


What settings are you liking now with the new firmware?


----------



## thrang

LJG said:


> What settings are you liking now with the new firmware?


Settings are so specific to setup and even titles, not sure how much use sharing is, but I increased max nits from 500 to 600

Ratio ranges from 0 to 8

Shape 2 ish

Tran 7 but experimenting

Gamma 0 or -1

Black 1 to -1

This is with the Sony in 2020 mode not Color Space 2 which would require different settings

To refresh, I'm running 90 laser ATM, 11' wide 2.35 screen

But the subtle improvement to color intensity seems more systemic to the update in general....of course I could be crazy....


----------



## Roland Janus

thrang said:


> Settings are so specific to setup and even titles, not sure how much use sharing is, but I increased max nits from 500 to 600
> 
> Ratio ranges from 0 to 8
> 
> Shape 2 ish
> 
> Tran 7 but experimenting
> 
> Gamma 0 or -1
> 
> Black 1 to -1
> 
> This is with the Sony in 2020 mode not Color Space 2 which would require different settings
> 
> To refresh, I'm running 90 laser ATM, 11' wide 2.35 screen
> 
> But the subtle improvement to color intensity seems more systemic to the update in general....of course I could be crazy....


you prefer 2020 over Color space 2?
what about the loss of light Output?

-R


----------



## thrang

Roland Janus said:


> you prefer 2020 over Color space 2?
> what about the loss of light Output?
> 
> -R


Yes, there are differences in color and I have the headroom to do full P3 at only 11 foot wide.

An example from last night is Prometheus... the shot when the rover is pulling away from the ship at the beginning Act 3. There's a long trail of dust created - with color space to it maps to something a bit desaturated, but with 2020, you see the brown tinge better matching the planet surface.

Another example is in the scene where Shaw stumble in on Weyland. A reflection of a monitor onto the ship over David's head re-tracks a tad bluer than revealed with full P3.

Subtle no doubt, and light output needs would trump this decision in a heartbeat. But I've done a number of a/b's like this on different discs, and the results/available headroom lead me to 2020.

I mean, Colorspace 2 is something like 85% of P3 I think, not that inconsequential. Similar color loss on the 4500 with filter I think.

If I had to run Colorspace 2, I would still be very happy with the image.


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> Settings are so specific to setup and even titles, not sure how much use sharing is, but I increased max nits from 500 to 600
> 
> Ratio ranges from 0 to 8
> 
> Shape 2 ish
> 
> Tran 7 but experimenting
> 
> Gamma 0 or -1
> 
> Black 1 to -1
> 
> This is with the Sony in 2020 mode not Color Space 2 which would require different settings
> 
> To refresh, I'm running 90 laser ATM, 11' wide 2.35 screen
> 
> But the subtle improvement to color intensity seems more systemic to the update in general....of course I could be crazy....


Thanks, good baseline to start. However I am getting only black screen with HDR sources after firmware update, have reported to Lumagen.


----------



## thrang

LJG said:


> Thanks, good baseline to start. However I am getting only black screen with HDR sources after firmware update, have reported to Lumagen.


Give you pro the common courtesy of a reach around, and after a 30 second power cycle, see if the image comes back. Sometimes switching the 5000 to its unused into it and then back again wakes up the connection...


----------



## SJHT

Does anyone know what causes a black screen? Get one occasionally and have to power cycle the Pro. My projector shows the signal coming in (like normal), but only black video. Seems like there would be a diffference if there was no HDMI sync. Almost like the Pro detects some HDCP issue between the source and display and turns off the video? My JVC projector is probably some of the issue as it's inputs and locking on to a signal is so slow anyway vs. modern LED/OLED types which seem to lock on things immediately. Things have improved with some of the latest firmwares, but still get this on occasion. SJ


----------



## thrang

I think it's sync not HDCP as this will happen simply switching back to my TiVo.

Jim has said the 18ghz they use are not as programmable as the previous 9 ghz chips I believe, so they can affect fewer workaround in coding, and perhaps are more dependent on the vendor implementing changes

It is a weak spot in the Lumagen. It's a bit frustrating because it's random, and my startups and shutdowns are identical via my RTI panel.

But it's workable, and I've found switching my hdmi inputs on my Sony 5000 can clear it, so I might program that in to my startup. I generally don't see it once sorted out at the beginning, switching between different devices and different resolutions...


----------



## SJHT

Yeah, I also can switch to another input and if that fails I power the Pro off and back on. It really is random. Just wondered what is going on to cause as strange getting no video (well, black screen of video), but my projector input status shows things like normal. SJ


----------



## KarlKlammer

With the 082217 it seems that MaxCLL decides whether the Radiance uses the IM parameters for 2000. I currently have two movies with 4000 nits source max mastering that obviously have MaxCLL 2000 via HDfury Linker. 
I think it would be really helpful if the Radiance also displays MaxCLL in its debug menu. This would avoid some confusion.


----------



## thrang

Why am I dopey this morning? How do I copy the entirety of Mem A into Mem B?

EDIT - nvm, it's where I thought it was, but the hdr tweak menu doesn't copy so I was seeing display differences as I switched between a and b...


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

SJHT said:


> My attempts at just doing 3D LUTs in Lightspace (just for SDR709) turn out looking like a mess compared to the perfect cubes in the instructions. Likely just picking the wrong options.... Calman yields better results. SJ


Hi, for SDR results with LightSpace, look a JVC X30 user post, his post-verification results came from 4 minutes projector profiling measurements only: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ema-calibration-software-38.html#post54697582


----------



## jrp

Several things to comment on.

First (as others have posted) we posted the new HDR Intensity Mapping software release (082217). We believe this is a significant improvement. Note that if you loaded 082117 please update again to 082217 (or later) as there was a "black screen" bug in 082117. 

Here are some answers to some of the questions I have received on this release:

- How have the HDR Intensity Mapping parameter control changed? The range of Transition has doubled. We tried to keep the 0 to 7 old range as close as possible to what they look like in the previous version. We have increased the effect of Shape, but kept the range at 0 to 7. With smaller Transition values Shape has a similar effect. However, we have removed code that reduced the effect of Shape as Transition increased so it effectively has more effect with larger Transition values than before. 

- Will this change the image produced by my current settings? The answer is, no visible change to some change, but the changes should improve the image if they are visible (IMO). Please note that I have looked at a number of settings, but there may be other settings that show more difference than those I checked.

- Should I change my HDR Intensity Mapping settings when using the new HDR Intensity Mapping release? A definite maybe. I have found that for 1000 and 1100 nit sources the setting I had before work well and I do not feel the need to change them (might tune them later of course). For 4000 nit sources, I believe increasing Transition can improve the image. For example in Mad Max Fury Road, bright clouds in the sky looked better with Transition in the 10 to 12 range verses my old setting of 6. Since Shape has more effect in the larger Transition range now available, you may find that if you have it set higher than 3 you might want to reduce it (or might not).

- Are there recommended values: For 1000 and 1100 nit sources I generally use Tran = 6 and Shape = 2. This has not changed but I need to do more experimenting. For 4000 nit course, I would say Tran at bout 10 to 12 and Shape at 4 or 5. I am going to be doing more experimenting with various levels and may change this recommendation.

- I notice the colors look more vibrant with the new HDR Intensity Mapping release. Is this to be expected? While the HDR Intensity Mapping treats R, G, and B the same, it now allows increased brightness for bright object (such as the clouds in the last example). Intensity does have an effect on perceived color so you will likely notice colors for bright objects also are improved.

- I have a 4000 nit title but it is using the HDR Parameters for


----------



## netroamer

*Layer3 and Lumagen Pro*

Anyone have this combination in your system? Layer3 is a relatively new network streaming box to replace cable. I had one DVR and 4 satallite units installed today and the boxes work great with the 1080p displays in the house but is having handshake, I think HDCP, issues with the Pro. It is 4k and it puts out a 4k 420 SDR2020 signal when hooked up to the Pro. But either it fails to handshake when switched to, or loses it during the session. When it works, it works and looks better then my Xfinity cable.


----------



## jrp

netroamer said:


> Anyone have this combination in your system? Layer3 is a relatively new network streaming box to replace cable. I had one DVR and 4 satallite units installed today and the boxes work great with the 1080p displays in the house but is having handshake, I think HDCP, issues with the Pro. It is 4k and it puts out a 4k 420 SDR2020 signal when hooked up to the Pro. But either it fails to handshake when switched to, or loses it during the session. When it works, it works and looks better then my Xfinity cable.


Are the TVs HDCP 2.2? If not and the source is 4k, it will output HDCP 2.2 to the Pro (with default settings) and the Pro will blank the video to the non-HDCP2.2 TV. You might see up to two seconds of video before the blanking occurs.

You can tell the Pro to report only HDCP 1.X to sources using the menu or the special code MENU 0819. Make sure to do a Save after entering this code. The HDCP 2.2 source will then output as HDCP 1.X (usually at a lower resolution) and the Pro can then output the video to HDCP 1.X TVs/projectors.

It might, of course, be something else but this is a common reason for not seeing video. If you continue to have issue please email us at support @ lumagen.com


----------



## jrp

A comment on "Black Screen" issues:

If you see a black screen you can also press the OK button to bring of the Info screen. If you can see the Info screen, and it reports NA for the input, then the issue is on the input side and not the output side of the Radiance Pro.

As I mentioned we did find and fix an issue with the input chip, so this input issue should not be an problem in the future. There may be other input issues lurking around though, and the Info Screen is a good debug tool to help localize the issue.

However as I pointed out most of the time it is the TV/Projector not locking on to the new HDMI signal rate. So, we added a command to force an output restart and if the TV/projector generally locks on this will often get the picture back without a reboot of the Radiance Pro (which is essentially a slower way to force and output restart to give the TV/projector a second chance to lock on).

The command is:
- Press and release the ALT key (to right of the digit 9)
- Press and release the PREV key (below the ALT key).

Please note that when you have issues, the best course of action is to email us at support @ lumagen.com (or call us at 503-574-2211) rather than posting here. That way we can ask you some debug questions and even get on the phone to discuss if appropriate.


----------



## SJHT

For me what's strange about the black screen, my projector is reporting the correct input (e.g 4K60, 12 bit,,etc.). Info screen never can never be seen. That's why I wondered if the Pro is turning off the video. I have a few times seen the Pro come up with the error message about 1.x output device (my display is 2.2). When I get a HDMI handshake issue, usually that is strange noise, etc. Guess black screen is another form of Handshake issues? I will say that the black screen doesn't happen as often now as it did in the past. Sometimes I also just have to have more patience as sometimes it will be black and then after awhile the video comes in. Once locked in, it never goes black. SJ


----------



## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> For me what's strange about the black screen, my projector is reporting the correct input (e.g 4K60, 12 bit,,etc.). Info screen never can never be seen. That's why I wondered if the Pro is turning off the video. I have a few times seen the Pro come up with the error message about 1.x output device (my display is 2.2). When I get a HDMI handshake issue, usually that is strange noise, etc. Guess black screen is another form of Handshake issues? I will say that the black screen doesn't happen as often now as it did in the past. Sometimes I also just have to have more patience as sometimes it will be black and then after awhile the video comes in. Once locked in, it never goes black. SJ


Had not only the black screen symptom but some judder, especially switching between a Tivo box and HTPC. Came after updating to a newer firmware version (confirmed by returning to older version). 
After working with Jim over the phone, we determined, as he expected, that it was a cable problem. The Radiance Pro to JVC RS500 connection is less than ideal, so switching from a 15' Audioquest passive to a Redmere (active chip) solved both issues.


----------



## SJHT

Might try a new cable later this year. A pain because of how it is run. Can't hurt. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Wookii

SJHT said:


> Might try a new cable later this year. A pain because of how it is run. Can't hurt. Thanks. SJ


Are you still getting the black screen issue with the latest firmware?


----------



## SJHT

Wookii said:


> Are you still getting the black screen issue with the latest firmware?


Not yet. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 083017*

*FW Beta 083017*
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 083017*
Added a default setting for HDR source mastering maximum for some sources that do not set it. 
New setting available under *Input: Options: HDR Setup: Max Default* . 
Added new setting to add 80ms video delay to Pro video output for systems with larger audio delays. 
This new video delay setting is under *Input: Options: Delay*. 
Bugfix for not copying input HDR parameters when performing a memory copy operation in the menu. 
Fix for sometimes powering on and getting a half-height picture under certain circumstances. 
Added settings for HDR for optional trigger outputs when Pro has an HDR source. 
Fix for input hdr gamma and black offsets sometimes not having an effect in last couple firmwares. 
Bugfix for 9Ghz outputs giving quick screen flash when changing output mode in last few firmware versions. 
Bugfix for couple cases of Pro menu breaking up. 
Bugfix for incorrect input change with auto input selection for a couple of sources (PS4, Panasonic UB9000) when they switched to HDR mode. 
Several other small bugfixes. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at  radiancepro_beta [ at] lumagen.com .

Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Roland Janus

what am I missing if the Status Screen says:

Input
Rate: 59.94Hz (from a Nvidia shield)
Format: 422-SDR709

Output
Rate: 59.94Hz
Format: 420-SDR709

But the style used says Auto-18Hgz, (using 422)

?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Roland Janus said:


> what am I missing if the Status Screen says:
> 
> Input
> Rate: 59.94Hz (from a Nvidia shield)
> Format: 422-SDR709
> 
> Output
> Rate: 59.94Hz
> Format: 420-SDR709
> 
> But the style used says Auto-18Hgz, (using 422)
> 
> ?


Does your display support UHD 60Hz 4:4:4? It looks like the display is telling the Radiance it can only take 60Hz at 4:2:0


----------



## Roland Janus

Gordon Fraser said:


> Does your display support UHD 60Hz 4:4:4? It looks like the display is telling the Radiance it can only take 60Hz at 4:2:0


the Status Screen says so for my VPL-VW5000, everything is Y


----------



## SJHT

I did find a potential bug which I reported. For 4K24, it is showing an output of 420, but my projector shows an input of 422. SJ


----------



## RapalloAV

SJHT said:


> I did find a potential bug which I reported. For 4K24, it is showing an output of 420, but my projector shows an input of 422. SJ


I also reported this, I think it happened after I did the firmware update yesterday.


----------



## xchap2001

Hello guys: i just tried to update my pro and holy **** its like pulling teeth.... i used parallel with a new iMac and window 10 . didn't work,
I used an old dell laptop using usb cable window 7 no good .... lumagen team can you please make it easier to update this unit or future units...
my old xd-3d and my mini was just a pain also..... i did use a keyspan serial to usb on my old units it work after several tries, but i couldn't get my pro usb to work hummm.... Getting ready for my 4k movie/component upgrade


----------



## SJHT

Use the USB A male - USB B male cord. Works perfect with windows. Mine always goes to COM3, but you can check that. SJ


----------



## sillysally

Roland Janus said:


> what am I missing if the Status Screen says:
> 
> Input
> Rate: 59.94Hz (from a Nvidia shield)
> Format: 422-SDR709
> 
> Output
> Rate: 59.94Hz
> Format: 420-SDR709
> 
> But the style used says Auto-18Hgz, (using 422)
> 
> ?


 I reported this bug yesterday. 

ss


----------



## Wookii

xchap2001 said:


> Hello guys: i just tried to update my pro and holy **** its like pulling teeth.... i used parallel with a new iMac and window 10 . didn't work,
> I used an old dell laptop using usb cable window 7 no good .... lumagen team can you please make it easier to update this unit or future units...
> my old xd-3d and my mini was just a pain also..... i did use a keyspan serial to usb on my old units it work after several tries, but i couldn't get my pro usb to work hummm.... Getting ready for my 4k movie/component upgrade


You need to go into Windows Devices Manager and check which COM port the Radiance is on - mine always ends up on COM4, but it will be different on different machines. You might also need to need to briefly turn off any anti-virus software - I use the free version of Avast and it always stops the Lumagen update software from working, thinking it is a suspicious program. Also of course make sure the Radiance is powered on, not in standby.


----------



## Wookii

Copying my post across from the Kaleidescape Strato thread, in case it is of any use/interest to any Strato owners on this thread:



Wookii said:


> I use a Radiance Pro with a Strato also, and now Lumagen have tweaked their Intensity Mapping functionality to tone map on a title by title basis, the image quality results are simply stunning.
> 
> One important thing to be aware of however, is that it has come to light that HDR titles on the Strato appear to have incorrect HDR metadata.
> 
> The Lumagen Pro uses this metadata to determine the hard clip point of the Intensity Mapping curve, and so many titles on the Strato are displayed with the incorrect tone mapping curve.
> 
> Here are a couple of examples:
> 
> Batman v Superman -
> From Strato: ScrMax=1000, MaxCLL=4000
> From Disc: SrcMax=4000, MaxCLL=4000
> 
> Pacific Rim:
> From Strato: ScrMax=1000, MaxCLL=2465
> From Disc: ScrMax=4000, MaxCLL=2465
> 
> MadMax:
> From Strato: ScrMax=4000, MaxCLL=4000
> From Disc: ScrMax=4000, MaxCLL=9919
> 
> Jupiter Ascending:
> From Strato: ScrMax=1000, MaxCLL=256
> From Disc: ScrMax=4000, MaxCLL=345
> 
> This issue may not just affect Lumagen Radiance Pro users, but user of any display that might use the incoming metadata to adjust automated internal tone mapping.


The extent to which it affects the actual on screen image will of course vary depending on set-up, however the key thing is to ensure one does not use the Strato to set IM curve parameters, as it can give odd results. For example all of the titles above that have a max mastering level of 1000nits on the Strato, but 4000nits on the disc use the 2000nits IM settings with the disc.

Note that this isn't a Lumagen issue, but a Kaleidescape issue that Kaleidescape need to fix. To reiterate what I have said above, I think the tone mapping in the Pro is now doing an incredible job and the results I am seeing are stunning - the move to scaling the tone mapping curve on a title by title basis has made a significant improvement.


----------



## mikigio

Hi, I would be interested in Lumagen Pro to calibrate HDR TV but it does not seem compatible with Oled TV?

Did I get it right?


----------



## Roland Janus

SJHT said:


> I did find a potential bug which I reported. For 4K24, it is showing an output of 420, but my projector shows an input of 422. SJ


The Sony5000 sadly doesn't report much usefull data about the signal 
But good to know, thanks!


----------



## Roland Janus

Wookii said:


> You need to go into Windows Devices Manager and check which COM port the Radiance is on - mine always ends up on COM4, but it will be different on different machines. You might also need to need to briefly turn off any anti-virus software - I use the free version of Avast and it always stops the Lumagen update software from working, thinking it is a suspicious program. Also of course make sure the Radiance is powered on, not in standby.


I had com3, so yes, conincidence
(use Windows Defender, really!)


----------



## RapalloAV

Is there anyone here use their Pro with madvr?


----------



## sillysally

mikigio said:


> Hi, I would be interested in Lumagen Pro to calibrate HDR TV but it does not seem compatible with Oled TV?
> 
> Did I get it right?


Yes you got it right, at least for now. As long as your HDR TV processes the metadata. If not or you can turn off processing, then yes you can use the Pro to calibrate HDR.

If your OLED is a 2017 LG, then I would suggest this link.http://www.lg.com/us/support/products/documents/Calibration Notes for 2017 LG OLED TVs.pdf

You can also calibrate DV for the 2017 LG OLED, using Calman.

ss


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> Yes you got it right, at least for now. As long as your HDR TV processes the metadata. If not or you can turn off processing, then yes you can use the Pro to calibrate HDR.
> 
> If your OLED is a 2017 LG, then I would suggest this link.http://www.lg.com/us/support/products/documents/Calibration Notes for 2017 LG OLED TVs.pdf
> 
> You can also calibrate DV for the 2017 LG OLED, using Calman.
> 
> ss


I am not sure why sillysally would say the Pro does not work with HDR (specifically HDR10) OLEDs. We have had no issues of not-working with any HDR10 TV/projector for HDR that I know of.

In default mode with "Auto" factory settings an HDR source's Metadata is passed through to the HDR TV/projector. So it should work just fine with any HDR TV/projector.

For any non-HDR TV/projector the Pro's HDR intensity Mapping can put the HDR into a "SDR container" and so the Pro with well for HDR with any TV/projector.

NOTE: For some sources you need an 18 GHz input card for the the source to go into HDR mode. This is an issue with the source that can be resolved using an 18 GHz input card, but has nothing to do with the type of TV/projector.

===== 

If someone can document specific examples of an issue with HDR10 with any TV/projector with the steps needed to reproduce it in our lab we will of course look into it.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 083117*

*Beta 083117*
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 083117*
Bugfix for 083017 showing 420 instead of 422 color format on output in some situations. 
Fix for audio not coming on at power-up in some systems for 082217-083017. 
Some improvements with auto selection if enabled. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

Here is a Pro features and status update:

We added a Video delay into the 083017 release (and later). I believe this is an important addition and as far as we can tell not available in any other consumer device (but there may be some we do not know about).

We started getting calls a couple weeks ago the Radiance Pro owners were installing speakers with built in DSP, but that the DSP added a lot of processing time (one number given was 90mS). This made the audio significantly later than the video and caused lip sync issues. The comments were that there is nothing available that can delay the video to eliminate this lip sync issue, and would we please add a video delay feature to the Radiance Pro. This is not the first we heard of needing video delay since for HD uncompressed audio some processors have a much longer processing delay than for older audio formats. However, the issue seems much worse with the new DSP speakers.

We had video delay on the to-do list but the egregious nature of the DSP speaker audio processing delay issue raised it up to the top of the list and we added a video delay option.

We choose a long but fixed "least common multiple" video delay so all formats have nearly identical delays. This is much simpler (and less likely to generate bugs) than a mS resolution timer. The (additional) delay is 5 frames at 60 Hertz (83 mS), 4 frames at 50 Hertz (80 mS) and 2 frames at 24 or 25 Hertz (83 or 80 mS). The 3 mS difference for 50 and 60 Hertz sources is not discernible by humans.

This is in addition to the Radiance Pro's 24 mS (-ish) to 60 mS (-ish) delay in non-Genlock mode and the about 24 mS (-ish) delay with Genlock enabled (24, 25, 50, or 60 Hertz all are nearly the same time).

You enable the feature (Input: Options: Delay) and then use the AVR or audio processors audio delay to fine tune the video and audio output to be in sync.

NOTE: I had a call today asking for more than 83 mS of video delay. If this becomes important we can add a longer delay. So let us know if the 83 mS extra delay is not enough for you.

NOTE: Older Radiance models cannot have additional video delay. This is a hardware limitation for these older models. So if you need the video delay you would have to upgrade to the Radiance Pro.

================== 

Some HDR sources do not report Source Max Mastering level (or MaxCLL). The two common ones are earlier HDR demos, and HDR games. We had a default selected for these type of HDR sources, but it turns out at least some games use the entire 10000 nit HDR10 range and the default we choose while working well for movies and demos, did not work for games. 

Because of this we added a menu item that allows you to specify the Source Max Mastering level for sources that do not report it in the HDR info frame (more specifically they report 0). This new parameter is per-memory so you can have one setting for movies that do not report Source Max and one for Games.

This is in the Input: Options: HDR Setup: Max Default menu.

=================== 

As noted in the update log, while fixing other bugs there were a couple status reporting bugs that crept in, such as the output format noted above. The ones we have found, or have been reported, have been fixed.

=================== 

If you have any bugs to report please email them, and information on how to reproduce the bug, to support @ lumagen.com. Please make sure you are on the latest released firmware (or let us know if you are on a Alpha release what the update date is).


----------



## mikigio

Hi, thanks at JRP and Sillysally to both for your answers, I need to understand.

My Oled is a LG E6 (2016)

My video chain currently in the house is this:
Lg Oled E6, Pioneer Kuro 5090H, Panasonic VT60, Lumagen Radiance 2041, Eecolor etc .. AV ..

Current Radiance does a great job on SDR Oled better than what Eecolor can do.

Eecolor works very well on the Kuro.

For Jrp, the issue of HDR management on Oled seems to have been treated by both Steve and Ted in this Tread.

If you solve my doubts, I'm buying it, but the things I've read will put some brakes at the moment.

The question is that the Oled LG E6 also manually calibrated by SDR does a good job of comparison with Kuro (my current SDR Radiance further optimizes some details on certain colors rendering the picture similar to professional photographic monitors) but on HDR the controls are limited and video response is not as enjoyable as SDR.

To calibrate Calman usage, I have Light Space, Spectracal C6, EyeOne pro2 spectrum.


----------



## mikigio

mikigio said:


> Hi, thanks at JRP and Sillysally to both for your answers, I need to understand.
> 
> My Oled is a LG E6 (2016)
> 
> My video chain currently in the house is this:
> Lg Oled E6, Pioneer Kuro 5090H, Panasonic VT60, Lumagen Radiance 2041, Eecolor etc .. AV ..
> 
> Current Radiance does a great job on SDR Oled better than what Eecolor can do.
> 
> Eecolor works very well on the Kuro.
> 
> For Jrp, the issue of HDR management on Oled seems to have been treated by both Steve and Ted in this Tread.
> 
> If you solve my doubts, I'm buying it, but the things I've read will put some brakes at the moment.
> 
> The question is that the Oled LG E6 also manually calibrated by SDR does a good job of comparison with Kuro (my current SDR Radiance further optimizes some details on certain colors rendering the picture similar to professional photographic monitors) but on HDR the controls are limited and video response is not as enjoyable as SDR.
> 
> To calibrate Calman usage, I have Light Space, Spectracal C6, EyeOne pro2 spectrum.


If I did not understand the problem, it seems like it is not possible to exclude HDR metadata from the TV.

  Does this cause conflicts?

Is it just a 3D lut?

Question:
Does Calman Still Handle HDR Patterns?
It would also be useful just to set up the Grayscale and CMS with Radiance Pro.

It would be for Oled E6 a good step forward.


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> I am not sure why sillysally would say the Pro does not work with HDR (specifically HDR10) OLEDs. We have had no issues of not-working with any HDR10 TV/projector for HDR that I know of.
> 
> In default mode with "Auto" factory settings an HDR source's Metadata is passed through to the HDR TV/projector. So it should work just fine with any HDR TV/projector.
> 
> For any non-HDR TV/projector the Pro's HDR intensity Mapping can put the HDR into a "SDR container" and so the Pro with well for HDR with any TV/projector.
> 
> NOTE: For some sources you need an 18 GHz input card for the the source to go into HDR mode. This is an issue with the source that can be resolved using an 18 GHz input card, but has nothing to do with the type of TV/projector.
> 
> =====
> 
> If someone can document specific examples of an issue with HDR10 with any TV/projector with the steps needed to reproduce it in our lab we will of course look into it.


Jim, I was talking about using a HDR 3DLUT calibration installed in the Pro for a flat panel like the 2017 LG OLED. What other dollar wise reason would you want a Pro just to pass HDR megadata though to your OLED flat panel. And if all you want to do is calibrate the OLED, why not just use the W/B controls in the LG OLED, using LG's HDR calibration notes for a 2017 LG OLED. 
http://www.lg.com/us/support/products/documents/Calibration Notes for 2017 LG OLED TVs.pdf 

Yes passed through for HDR megadata works fine. 

If you read the OP, that person asked about a Pro for HDR OLED calibartion. 
_"Hi, I would be interested in Lumagen Pro to calibrate HDR TV but it does not seem compatible with Oled TV?"

_ss

btw, thanks for the quick firmware fix_.
_


----------



## mikigio

Hi, Thank.

TV controls for HDR do not work well on the gray scale balance, they introduce faults in easily visible color on the gray ramp.
unfortunately the TV controls work well only in SDR, BluRay, DVD etc

Another Question: Can the Radiance Pro while managing an HDR profile block metadata output as I can do on my Panasonic UB900 Player?

This would prevent the panel from turning on hdr, and you could do so by generating a profile with sdr output, but by using Radiance's HDR tone mapping.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mikigio said:


> Hi, Thank.
> 
> TV controls for HDR do not work well on the gray scale balance, they introduce faults in easily visible color on the gray ramp.
> unfortunately the TV controls work well only in SDR, BluRay, DVD etc
> 
> Another Question: Can the Radiance Pro while managing an HDR profile block metadata output as I can do on my Panasonic UB900 Player?
> 
> This would prevent the panel from turning on hdr, and you could do so by generating a profile with sdr output, but by using Radiance's HDR tone mapping.


yes you can get the Pro to send out metadata telling the tv it's SDR/REC2020 but telling the source to send the scaler HDR. Then you would turn on the intensity mapping in the scaler. If you did this you would create a LUT targeting UHD/REC2020 with a gamma of 2.4 for best results. You could compare that to sending the normal HDR direct to TV on another memory..


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes you can get the Pro to send out metadata telling the tv it's SDR/REC2020 but telling the source to send the scaler HDR. Then you would turn on the intensity mapping in the scaler. If you did this you would create a LUT targeting UHD/REC2020 with a gamma of 2.4 for best results. You could compare that to sending the normal HDR direct to TV on another memory..




Thank you, this is a solution that makes the purchase of Radiance more sensible.

So LightSpace creates a HDR Lut while Radiance Pro comes out in SDR so the TV does not turn on the HDR mapping that in this remanufactured Radiance management, is correct?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Yes. You would likely choose a different brighter preset on the TV to use this method with. It is likely that the set may not go as bright in non HDR mode but you may still prefer this solution. I have done this with other sets and it's looked better than the baked in EOTF in the display.


----------



## mikigio

surely Radiance mapping will be better compared to the HDR TV preset, too coarse, I prefer the 120 nits BluRay treated with Lut on the Radiance 2041
compared to the HDR formats of the same movie, too many strange things about the colors and generally too much light in HDR mode.

My Oled is a LG E6


----------



## sillysally

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes you can get the Pro to send out metadata telling the tv it's SDR/REC2020 but telling the source to send the scaler HDR. Then you would turn on the intensity mapping in the scaler. If you did this you would create a LUT targeting UHD/REC2020 with a gamma of 2.4 for best results. You could compare that to sending the normal HDR direct to TV on another memory..


That's interesting, 
I will use my highest peak nits (162 nits with very little clipping) SRD display mode profile made with LightSpace, do the conversion to SDR/REC2020, install in my Pro 4440, set intensity mapping to 700 nits, 3DLUT to HDR. My 2017 OLED puts out between 720 to 730 peak nits (Y), depending on how I calibrate the grayscale with the internal controls of the C7 in HDR mode.

I will report back on the PQ comparing the above, to pass though mode.
I have done it before on my EF9500 LG OLED 2015 and that look bad, but that was many months ago, maybe things with both LightSpace and the pro have improved. Easy to do.

If this is not correct then tell me what step I am missing or doing wrong. I would hate to report back using a incorrect setting. 

ss


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> Here is a Pro features and status update:
> 
> We added a Video delay into the 083017 release (and later). I believe this is an important addition and as far as we can tell not available in any other consumer device (but there may be some we do not know about).


Outstanding! Been asking for this for years 

How hard would it be to add a per-input/MEM delay? Every source has a different delay, and per input/MEM would allow the Pro to get close to being a zero latency device, which would be absolutely fantastic.


----------



## Mike_WI

*different delay, and per input/MEM*



Mark_H said:


> Outstanding! Been asking for this for years
> 
> How hard would it be to add a per-input/MEM delay? Every source has a different delay, and per input/MEM would allow the Pro to get close to being a zero latency device, which would be absolutely fantastic.


+1 this

I tend to not have a problem with BR, but due with UHD.
It would be great to have these with labels, so others can remember/figure them out (like my kids).

Mike


----------



## SJHT

I find that audio delay is really needed for both 4K60 and 4K24 (per source) as this seems to really change the audio delay requirements. Especially 4K24. SJ


----------



## SJHT

I am trying once again to create a 3D LUT using Lightspace CMS with terrible results (really unwatchable). I'm using a HDR2020 source (at the time I had it running - a Strato player running a 4K24/HDR movie into my Lumagen Pro), using HDR Intensity Mapping and outputting 4K24 SDR REC2020 to my JVC projector. I have the color space set to REC2020 on the JVC and GAMMA set to 2.4 Any other things to consider? I checked brightness and left contract alone at this point. Should I do a two point grey scale on my JVC? Just some general comments would be great from anyone.



ConnecTEDDD said:


> *For Meter Profiling using LightSpace with Lumagen*
> 
> *I only have one meter and therefore nothing to profile with. It is a C6 HDR (recently purchased and checked by Spectracal). Can I just use this? I'm running Lightspace CMS with the C6 drivers I received from you May 2016. The meter works fine in Calman with very good results (for REC709 sources)
> *
> *3D LUT with LightSpace*
> 
> Back LightSpace operations for 3D LUT, these are the areas you can use, for HT users:
> 
> 1) *File -> Upload:* Select your active external pattern generator and change it's settings
> 
> *Selected Lumagen, correct COM port and patches. I also uploaded a NULL cube*
> 
> 2) *Tools -> Discovarable Probe:* untick the virtual meter and tick your active meter.
> 
> * Should I select i1 Display Pro OEM for my C6? *
> 
> 3) *Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface -> Options:* Set your meter settings.
> 
> *Are there any other options I should be changing? The options screen has plenty of choices! *
> 
> 4) *Tools -> Calibration -> Calibration Interface:* Take pre-post calibration measurements or manual measurements.
> 
> *Profiling seems to work fine. but when I select Measure, just get a black screen (I think this is maybe manual from the Patch Color). What specifically do I need to do on this screen? Any options I need to select? What is the Color Standard Target for this screen? Is this entire screen just for presetting up your display (selecting the best choices, doing two point grayscale, etc.) to get ready for measuring?*
> 
> 5) *Tools -> Calibration -> Display Characterization:* Use it to take measurements for display profiling....17-point cube etc... This is not working in DPS version of LightSpace.
> 
> *Should I select 17 for cube size? What about all of the other options (3D cube, Hybrid 1D+3D), Patch Sequence, Select Time per Frame), etc. At this point Active LUT should be NO LUT? I select Measure (and name the file JVC XXX), What about all of the probe options?*
> 
> 6) *Tools -> ColorSpace -> ColorSpace Manager:* Here are saved all your measurements.
> 
> *This is where JVC XXX now shows up? What else is on this screen?*
> 
> 7) *Tools -> ColorSpace - Convert ColorSpace: *Here you perform the 3D LUT correction generation. (It's not working with DPS). You select @ Source your target Colorspace (for example REC.709) and at Destination you select your cube measurement file (one 17-Point cube measurement file for example)...When you click to 'Create New', it's generating the correction in 2-3 seconds only. From one measurement run you can generate as many corrections you like, for example with different gamma values or other colorspace etc.
> 
> *What color space should I have for source? My source is HDR2020 which is not an option. There is UHD REC2020, ST2084_REC 2020)...
> 
> What is the color space destination? JVC XXX file that I created? Do I need to change any of the options RED GREEN BLUE WHITE GAMMA. What about Limit Luminance, Is the name at the botton the name of my created 3D LUT that I will eventually load back into my Lumagen Pro? Do I need out of gamut warning, Peak Chroma?*
> 
> *8) Upload the 3D LUT to Lumagen:* After the correction is created you only upload it to your 3D LUT hardware (using File - Upload for Lumagen) or export it to a file (for eeColor)
> 
> This is where my picture (from my NULL Cube), went from great to horrible. Think I'm doing something wrong...
> 
> [


Thanks for any help! SJ

Added this: yikes...


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> Jim, I was talking about using a HDR 3DLUT calibration installed in the Pro for a flat panel like the 2017 LG OLED. What other dollar wise reason would you want a Pro just to pass HDR megadata though to your OLED flat panel. And if all you want to do is calibrate the OLED, why not just use the W/B controls in the LG OLED, using LG's HDR calibration notes for a 2017 LG OLED.
> http://www.lg.com/us/support/products/documents/Calibration Notes for 2017 LG OLED TVs.pdf
> 
> Yes passed through for HDR megadata works fine.
> 
> If you read the OP, that person asked about a Pro for HDR OLED calibartion.
> _"Hi, I would be interested in Lumagen Pro to calibrate HDR TV but it does not seem compatible with Oled TV?"
> 
> _ss
> 
> btw, thanks for the quick firmware fix_.
> _


Sorry to persist, but the Pro 1D and 3D LUTs can calibrate ANY projector or TV for HDR10 (or SDR) source. 

The most accurate 3D LUT is to set the Pro to "Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR" and use Lightspace to calibrate HDR sources. However, you and set the CMS memory Colorspace to "SDR2020" and the "Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR" and do a SDR Rec 2020 calibration. This gives very good results and allows the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping more range to tune the HDR response.

So the Pro is compatible with the LG OLED TVs and can calibrate them for both SDR and HDR10 source.


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Outstanding! Been asking for this for years
> 
> How hard would it be to add a per-input/MEM delay? Every source has a different delay, and per input/MEM would allow the Pro to get close to being a zero latency device, which would be absolutely fantastic.


Making the video delay programmable in mS is a lot more work and more likely to generate bugs. We wanted to get a solution out quickly to allow a resolution for the main problem, since there is apparently no other way to resolve it.

Certainly allowing the video delay to be tuned in mS (something we discussed) is a nice to have and we are leaving it on the under-consideration list.

Simpler would be to program in integer frame times. We selected 5, 4, 2, and 2 for 60, 50, 25, and 24 Hertz. It would be a step in the right direction to allow for the frame time delay of each frame rate type to be selected on a per memory basis. For 60 Hertz this would allow you to program in 16.67 mS steps and since this step size is below the human perception threshold would give you a way to program the audio delay in what I would hope is in a "good enough" category, and be much simpler than a mS step size. I will discuss this with Patrick and we can potentially add this capability in the near future.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> I am trying once again to create a 3D LUT using Lightspace CMS with terrible results (really unwatchable). I'm using a HDR2020 source (at the time I had it running - a Strato player running a 4K24/HDR movie into my Lumagen Pro), using HDR Intensity Mapping and outputting 4K24 SDR REC2020 to my JVC projector. I have the color space set to REC2020 on the JVC and GAMMA set to 2.4 Any other things to consider? I checked brightness and left contract alone at this point. Should I do a two point grey scale on my JVC? Just some general comments would be great from anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help! SJ
> 
> Added this: yikes...


Do not play any UHD HDR content when you are trying to create your LUT. 

Just put on a standard BD disc
Put the CMS bank you will use for HDR in to the SDR/709/601 slot for now in Pro
Reset that CMS to default.
Put Projector in to the preset you want to use with your Intensity mapping LUT. 
Run a profile with LightSpace
Create LUT targetting UHDREC2020 in LightSpace.
Download it to the scaler. 
Move the CMS in to the slot that is used for HDR/REC2020 and put your SDR one back in the original place.
Set the CMS bank you are using for HDR to colourspace = SDR2020 or SDR709, NOT AUTO.
Now put on an HDR disc or HDR source from Strato and turn on intensity mapping and set the parameters by watching some content.

Save​


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> Sorry to persist, but the Pro 1D and 3D LUTs can calibrate ANY projector or TV for HDR10 (or SDR) source.
> 
> The most accurate 3D LUT is to set the Pro to "Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR" and use Lightspace to calibrate HDR sources. However, you and set the CMS memory Colorspace to "SDR2020" and the "Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR" and do a SDR Rec 2020 calibration. This gives very good results and allows the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping more range to tune the HDR response.
> 
> So the Pro is compatible with the LG OLED TVs and can calibrate them for both SDR and HDR10 source.


I tried _"Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR" and did a SDR Rec 2020 calibration. 
_Used a SDR profile to make a UHD Rec.2020 3DLUT, used the above setting in the Pro. not very good but the best of any combination.
Used a HDR profile I made with Lightspace, Made a HDR 3DLUT, set the pro to_"Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR"_ very poor. 

Conclusion. For Both the 2015 and 2017 LG OLED.
Much better off using bypass mode or simply connecting the source to the LG OLED. 

Sorry Jim, don't forget this doesn't help me if I want to sell my 4440. But SDR 3DLUT's and as a switcher the 4440 works well.

ss

_Update; I know have the last rock to turn over. Meaning I have the code to turn off HDR processing in my C7, but it should still output HDR nits. If that works using LightSpace and the Pro, I will report back. _


----------



## collinp

SJHT said:


> I am trying once again to create a 3D LUT using Lightspace CMS with terrible results (really unwatchable). I'm using a HDR2020 source (at the time I had it running - a Strato player running a 4K24/HDR movie into my Lumagen Pro), using HDR Intensity Mapping and outputting 4K24 SDR REC2020 to my JVC projector. I have the color space set to REC2020 on the JVC and GAMMA set to 2.4 Any other things to consider? I checked brightness and left contract alone at this point. Should I do a two point grey scale on my JVC? Just some general comments would be great from anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help! SJ
> 
> Added this: yikes...


Whoa, that's not good. Not sure what went wrong there.

You are using a variant of the i1 Display Pro. This probe has a lot of options to fiddle. The eShift JVC projectors strobe (you can see it with slow motion video on your phone), so you should use AIO if you have a Rev B probe or BURST if you have a Rev A probe. I've had better luck increasing the Patch Delay by an extra 1/4 second. Also you will want to increase the integration time. Some folks are setting it as high as 3 seconds, but that takes forever to do a profile. I've gotten pretty good stability on a 2017 Rev B with an extra 1/4 to 1/2 second integration time. I haven't found averaging low light readings to be as valuable as increasing the integration time so I've been leaving it off. Some prefer it on so you can experiment.

Do at least a 10^3 profile (more if you can spare the time). Measurements beyond the 17^3 that the Radiance supports are helpful and will result in a better LUT. Enable drift compensation. I've been doing it every 20 frames but that may be overkill. I prefer the 3D+1D hybrid profile because more accuracy in the grayscale is always better. Note however that the previous release of Lightspace had a bug that would make a mess of the LUT when generating from hybrid profiles. This should be fixed in the very latest Lightspace release that just came out but I have not yet verified.

There are lots of ways to calibrate with the Radiance :

1. HDR Source --> Radiance IM On, Gamma into LUT = HDR --> HDR to SDR LUT --> Display in SDR mode
2. HDR Source --> Radiance IM On, Gamma into LUT = SDR --> SDR LUT --> Display in SDR mode
3. HDR Source --> Radiance IM Off, Gamma into LUT = HDR --> HDR to SDR LUT with roll off --> Display in SDR mode
4. HDR Source --> Radiance IM Off, Gamma into LUT = HDR --> HDR LUT --> Display in HDR mode

I haven't really tried playing with option 4 since the other options with the Radiance are far more interesting. I can do great calibrations with options 2 and 3. I am still experimenting with option 1. I think it has the potential to be the best calibration, but I haven't quite dialed it in perfectly. However, it looks quite good.

In all cases perform the calibration with Radiance IM off and turn it on at the end for option 1 or 2 .

In all cases upload a NULL LUT to the Radiance before running the calibration. You could also do this manually by clearing out the CMS in the Radiance menus but it's easier to clear everything at once with Lightspace.

When performing an option 2 calibration temporarily set your SDR CMS to your HDR CMS and play an SDR source and calibrate as SDR. You can do this calibration with Lightspace or Calman. This appears to be the calibration Gordon outlined above, though he doesn't appear to have been explicit about the Gamma into LUT = SDR setting.

When performing all other calibrations play an HDR source.

For option 3 set your source color space to ST2084_Rec2020 and set your destination color space to your display profile. I've been liking the "Map Space" algorithm for LUT generation but try the others too. Click the EOTF Nits button. You have two roll off options. BT2039 is the HLG mapping. Soft Roll off is Lightspace's own algorithm which is more configurable. Click Load next to Screen Max Luminace and the max luminance of your display will be pulled over from your display profile. Set upper signal limt to 4000 since that's the max mastering currently. 90% is a good roll off point but you can play around with others. You will probably want to play with a screen multiplier. This will pretend your display is X times as bright as it is. ABL of the image will get dimmer as you increase the multiplier, but in a black room with a big screen this can be an okay trade off. Note that Dolby Cinema maxes out at a little over 100nits for it's HDR content and it looks amazing.

For option 2 set your source color space to ST2084_Rec2020 and set your destination color space to your display profile. Don't turn on any of the options under the EOTF Nits button. You may however want to play around with a screen multiplier. It seems best to just adjust this by hand. Under the Limit Luminance box check out your Maximum nits value for your display. Enter this value into the box next to the EOTF Nits button. If you want to add a screen multiplier just multiply the maximum nits value of your display by your screen multiplier and enter it into the box next to the EOTF Nits button.

Generate your LUT and upload it, then turn on IM.

- Collin


----------



## loggeo

SJHT said:


> I am trying once again to create a 3D LUT using Lightspace CMS with terrible results (really unwatchable). I'm using a HDR2020 source (at the time I had it running - a Strato player running a 4K24/HDR movie into my Lumagen Pro), using HDR Intensity Mapping and outputting 4K24 SDR REC2020 to my JVC projector. I have the color space set to REC2020 on the JVC and GAMMA set to 2.4 Any other things to consider? I checked brightness and left contract alone at this point. Should I do a two point grey scale on my JVC? Just some general comments would be great from anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help! SJ


Select a cms bunk and reset it. Turn intensity mapping off. Set output cms to sdr2020. Input must accept hdr and 2020, so turn them on. Store your lumagen settings. 
On your jvc select the 2020 color profile. Try to calibrate your white point to over 100 nits.
Adjust your brightness using the appropriate Masciola pattern or the one that Lumagen suggests. 
It would help if you could adjust your gamma to 2.2 or 2.4 on your jvc. 
Start lightspace and run the biggest profile you can. The more measurements the better. Don' t use hdr patterns.
When you convert the color space select st2084 rec2020 as a source. Go inside the EOTF nits. I had a white point of 99.9 nits. I used a multiplier of 5. I attach my settings. Experiment and convert color space (map or fit space, peak chroma, peak luma). 
Upload your 3d lut to your Lumagen. Keep intensity mapping turned off for starters. Turn "gamma to 3d lut" to hdr. You are now ready.
Should you wish to make more adjustments turn intensity mapping on adjust display max light to over 2500-3000 nits (until all picture details can be displayed-no clipping).
Go to the intensity mapping menu and make adjustments.

As Jim suggested, I believe this is a better method than uploading a 2020 gamma 2.4 lut and turning "gamma to 3d lut" to sdr. (In this case intensity mapping max light should be between 200-700 nits).


----------



## SJHT

Thanks from everyone for the suggestions. I'm going to try and combine all of the info and just use one option at this point. I will try and document the basic steps. Once I get things working a bit (well at least better than my previous attempts lol), then maybe branch out and try other things! Anyone using a C6 HDR with Tedd's drivers for Lightspace CMS? It works fine for Calman. SJ


----------



## SJHT

loggeo said:


> Select a cms bunk and reset it. Turn intensity mapping off. Set output cms to sdr2020. Input must accept hdr and 2020, so turn them on. Store your lumagen settings.
> On your jvc select the 2020 color profile. Try to calibrate your white point to over 100 nits.
> Adjust your brightness using the appropriate Masciola pattern or the one that Lumagen suggests.
> It would help if you could adjust your gamma to 2.2 or 2.4 on your jvc.
> Start lightspace and run the biggest profile you can. The more measurements the better. Don' t use hdr patterns.
> When you convert the color space select st2084 rec2020 as a source. Go inside the EOTF nits. I had a white point of 99.9 nits. I used a multiplier of 5. I attach my settings. Experiment and convert color space (map or fit space, peak chroma, peak luma).
> Upload your 3d lut to your Lumagen. Keep intensity mapping turned off for starters. Turn "gamma to 3d lut" to hdr. You are now ready.
> Should you wish to make more adjustments turn intensity mapping on adjust display max light to over 2500-3000 nits (until all picture details can be displayed-no clipping).
> Go to the intensity mapping menu and make adjustments.
> 
> As Jim suggested, I believe this is a better method than uploading a 2020 gamma 2.4 lut and turning "gamma to 3d lut" to sdr. (In this case intensity mapping max light should be between 200-700 nits).


So, I should play a HDR REC2020 source (vs. what Gordon suggested) during the process, turning IM off. Basically, would have HDR REC2020 4K24 as the source, SDR REC2020 4K24 as the output during the entire process? Thanks.


----------



## loggeo

SJHT said:


> So, I should play a HDR REC2020 source (vs. what Gordon suggested) during the process, turning IM off. Basically, would have HDR REC2020 4K24 as the source, SDR REC2020 4K24 as the output during the entire process? Thanks.


It does not matter if you play a HDR/SDR source as long as you have the cms you want to calibrate active. I only used the hdr source (and of course output was set to sdr2020) to run the masciola pattern.
The great thing about LS is that you don' t have to do all the process from the beginning. You already have the display profile. Just do the conversion and give it a try.


----------



## SJHT

Did another test with the same results. Wonder if there is some issue with my meter. It's a C6 HDR that works perfectly in Calman. It doesn't work directly with Lightspace CMS, but got some drivers from Tedd. I will keep trying things. SJ

From Star Trek Beyond: not good....


----------



## SJHT

Interesting in doing some profiling (setting 2 point grayscale for my JVC) I noticed that if I remove my USB extension, the charts are a bit different. Is using a USB extension a no no for a C6 HDR? I'm going to try it without. Just a pain because of where I'm sitting vs. the probe. SJ


----------



## sillysally

^^^^

The C6 is a propitiatory meter, meaning made to work with Calman.
The D3 is the same meter only cheaper, but it doesn't come with that very helpful mounting bracket.
Knowing Ted, he probably sent you the best drivers for your C6 and LightSpace. 

Although I would never suggest to use Calman over LightSpace to make a 3DLUT.
Because of your propitiatory meter, maybe it worth a try to use Calman if you already have the latest, newest software update version of Calman that can profile, make a 3DLUT and install in your Pro.
If not maybe try a base D3 

But of course try without the extension first using LighSpace.

ss .


----------



## SJHT

Turned out it made no difference. Results are still not good. Just a default picture with the CMS empty (and running IM) looks great in comparison. I am starting to understand how Lightspace CMS works, but maybe my meter is the problem. Tired of working on it at this point! lol.

What would be the process for making a 3D LUT for my 4K24 HDR2020 sources (into my Lumagen Pro, running IM) and outputting 4K24 SDR2020 to my JVC projector? I have used CALMAN extensively for creating 3D LUTs for my SDR709 sources. And had very good results. I have the latest 2017 version of CALMAN. Thanks. SJ


----------



## sillysally

Sorry I pretty much use Lightspace for my 3DLUT's with the Pro. 
As I recall when I did try Calman for HDR, it was fairly strait forward when using the HDR 3DLUT workflow. Just changed some settings in the options and workflow menu's, to suit what these guys are saying when using LightSpace and the Pro to make a HDR 3DLUT.
Keep in mind that I have a flat panel LG OLED, and much harder to calibrate for 3DLUT's because how it processes megadata.

However imho I doubt Calman is going to do any better than LightSpace for SDR/HDR 3DLUT's. 

ss


----------



## SJHT

I'm going to try another meter that works directly with the software. I'm determined to try and get Lightspace CMS working as I'm finally starting to understand the thing a bit... Thanks everyone for the help. SJ


----------



## Roland Janus

Mike_WI said:


> *Beta 083117*
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 083117*
> Bugfix for 083017 showing 420 instead of 422 color format on output in some situations.
> Fix for audio not coming on at power-up in some systems for 082217-083017.
> Some improvements with auto selection if enabled.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


it's still doing it when feeding 50/60Hz (only tested with 4K)


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi @All,
since LightSpace and Radiance Pro work together very well, I would like to point out that Light Illusion offers interesting special offers for both hardware and software during the IBC Show until 19th Sept. Perhaps for one or the other the chance to get a really good sensor or a software upgrade.
https://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=13&topic=446#msg2666
I hope this note is allowed here and not OT.
Peter


----------



## Sandel

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi @All,
> since LightSpace and Radiance Pro work together very well, I would like to point out that Light Illusion offers interesting special offers for both hardware and software during the IBC Show until 19th Sept. Perhaps for one or the other the chance to get a really good sensor or a software upgrade.
> https://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=13&topic=446#msg2666
> I hope this note is allowed here and not OT.
> Peter


What combination of software and probe would be sufficient to do decent measurings with the Radiance Pro? Is the cheapest combination of LightSpace HTL and i1 Display Pro already good enough?


----------



## OMARDRIS

Sandel said:


> What combination of software and probe would be sufficient to do decent measurings with the Radiance Pro? Is the cheapest combination of LightSpace HTL and i1 Display Pro already good enough?


Hi,
Yes, the combination of LigtSpace HTL and Xrite I1 Display Pro (EODIS3) is very good for calibration and cost-effective. LightSpace supports the I1 Display Pro and the Radiance Pro perfectly. For your own home cinema this combination is enough.
LightSpace HTL has almost the same performance as the professional versions. The professional versions also support the (expensive) professional sensors of Klein and Jeti and other manufacturers and offer additional functions for insiders.
Peter


----------



## Sandel

OMARDRIS said:


> Yes, the combination of LigtSpace HTL and Xrite I1 Display Pro (EODIS3) is very good for calibration and cost-effective.


Sounds good to me, thanks!


----------



## msleb

Can anyone share their Oppo 203 settings, especially if you are using the Lumagen Pro with Sony 5000? I have the usual SDR envelope calibration set up. How do you adjust the following parameters? I realize I could post in the Oppo 203 thread, but I figured I was most likely to find others with the Oppo/Lumagen/Sony 5000 combination here.

HDR > On (Can leave it to Auto, but isnt it better to remove any possibility of mis-reading the HDR tag?)
Output Resolution > Auto/Custom or Source Direct? I would think its better to use Source Direct, in order to let the Lumagen scale 1080p to 2160p on a standard blu-ray, rather than the Oppo? 
Custom Resolution > UHD AUTO?
Color Space > Auto? or force YCbCr 4:2:2 (or force YCbCr 4:4:4?). I figured AUTO
Color Depth > AUTO, 
HDR > AUTO.

Also, new Oppo firmware "Added HDR10 support for the HDMI input. An HDMI In Specs setting has also been added to the Setup Menu." In my set up any advice on this parameter?

Finally, with respect to the 'Target Luminance setting'-- since that setting only applies when the Oppo does the HDR--> SDR conversion, and in my setting I am having the Oppo output HDR and having the Lumagen do the HDR-->SDR conversion I assume this setting can be ignored?

Thanks


----------



## Roland Janus

my gear: Sony 5000, 1.0 2.35 AT screen (with motorized 16:9 side masking), Radiance pro, X-rite display 3 pro, Chromapure.

not sure if some of those questions are just stupid, but calibrating a PJ is painfull but after speeding that much money I want to try do everything right...

I use this forum because at the end it's more about the Radiance...

Focus:
I can't really see a real difference being close to the sweet spot, sure there a differences, but not more or less in focus, just different.
How do you properly set up focus as good as possible? There must be a trick...?

Convergence:
when alligning e.g. red/green, which is out of the box pretty good, I could get e.g. red to disappear a bit more.
But isn't it better to have the line as much yellow as possible instead, because it looks more greenish when red disappeared and it's more yellow when it isn't.
Does that make even sense?

Black:
Using the radiance pattern (Contrast 2), I can go down to 43/44 and still see the above then black while below black just disappeared.
Isn't that unusual? (I have a pretty dark room)

Contrast:
It seems with the Sony I could use 100 without any of the issues to avoid. Is that valid?
Should the goal be to not go with 100 anyway but just try for a certain brightness (48 cd/m2)?
(Laser on 80)

Screen format:
with a 2.35 screen, does it make a real difference which size I use for calibration: 16:9 or 2.35 or do everything useful twice?

CRM:
When using ChromaPure (soon to have HDR auto-cal), should I leave all the CRM settings on the 5000 left alone and do everything with the Radiance (except focus, black, white of course) using auto-cal and a CRM bank?

HDR:
Even once Chromapure has HDR auto-cal, should I still prefer to do HDR2020 -> SDR2020 -> Sony or just let autocal deal with it?


Would very much appriciate if you have some feedback.
Of course I'd also like any additional comments you might have.

thanks, roland


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi Roland,
I believe in the invested sum, it is useful to hire a professional with the adjustment and calibration? If you take good care, you can learn a lot at the same time.
Peter


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Roland Janus said:


> my gear: Sony 5000, 1.0 2.35 AT screen (with motorized 16:9 side masking), Radiance pro, X-rite display 3 pro, Chromapure.
> 
> not sure if some of those questions are just stupid, but calibrating a PJ is painfull but after speeding that much money I want to try do everything right...
> 
> I use this forum because at the end it's more about the Radiance...
> 
> Focus:
> I can't really see a real difference being close to the sweet spot, sure there a differences, but not more or less in focus, just different.
> How do you properly set up focus as good as possible? There must be a trick...?
> 
> Convergence:
> when alligning e.g. red/green, which is out of the box pretty good, I could get e.g. red to disappear a bit more.
> But isn't it better to have the line as much yellow as possible instead, because it looks more greenish when red disappeared and it's more yellow when it isn't.
> Does that make even sense?
> 
> Black:
> Using the radiance pattern (Contrast 2), I can go down to 43/44 and still see the above then black while below black just disappeared.
> Isn't that unusual? (I have a pretty dark room)
> 
> Contrast:
> It seems with the Sony I could use 100 without any of the issues to avoid. Is that valid?
> Should the goal be to not go with 100 anyway but just try for a certain brightness (48 cd/m2)?
> (Laser on 80)
> 
> Screen format:
> with a 2.35 screen, does it make a real difference which size I use for calibration: 16:9 or 2.35 or do everything useful twice?
> 
> CRM:
> When using ChromaPure (soon to have HDR auto-cal), should I leave all the CRM settings on the 5000 left alone and do everything with the Radiance (except focus, black, white of course) using auto-cal and a CRM bank?
> 
> HDR:
> Even once Chromapure has HDR auto-cal, should I still prefer to do HDR2020 -> SDR2020 -> Sony or just let autocal deal with it?
> 
> 
> Would very much appriciate if you have some feedback.
> Of course I'd also like any additional comments you might have.
> 
> thanks, roland


Roland

Trick for focus. 
1: First off leave unit on for 20-30 mins. 
2: Get a white piece of A4 paper.
3: Turn off internal test pattern in projector
4: Put up solid green field from Lumagen
5: Hold paper against the middle of the acoustic screen so it is resting lightly on it and not pushing it backwards.
6: Adjust focus until you can see the grid structure of the pixels the most clearly.
7: Save this lens position

It's hard to focus on a white cross section or text as you are focusing over convergence problems....plus the texture of an AT screen makes it hard to see the pixel grid. This trick is also useful for other textured screens with "gain"


----------



## Roland Janus

Gordon Fraser said:


> Roland
> 
> Trick for focus.
> 1: First off leave unit on for 20-30 mins.
> 2: Get a white piece of A4 paper.
> 3: Turn off internal test pattern in projector
> 4: Put up solid green field from Lumagen
> 5: Hold paper against the middle of the acoustic screen so it is resting lightly on it and not pushing it backwards.
> 6: Adjust focus until you can see the grid structure of the pixels the most clearly.
> 7: Save this lens position
> 
> It's hard to focus on a white cross section or text as you are focusing over convergence problems....plus the texture of an AT screen makes it hard to see the pixel grid. This trick is also useful for other textured screens with "gain"


Thanks a lot Gordon !


----------



## Roland Janus

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi Roland,
> I believe in the invested sum, it is useful to hire a professional with the adjustment and calibration? If you take good care, you can learn a lot at the same time.
> Peter


that would mean I never could do it properly myself, but also there aren't many pro's around here (if any), who can handle all that properly, including HDR.
And it is really expensive in switzerland...
@Gordon: how about a trip..?


----------



## Kris Deering

Had a chance to finally get in and test the newest HDR intensity mapping today. I am using a JVC RS4500 and while I have thought the HDR Intensity mapping does a good job, I had been getting better results with a custom curve made using the ARVE software spoken about so much in the JVC threads. Just recently I had dialed things in nicely with that tool in combination with the dynamic range slider on the Panasonic UB900 to get the right balance of shadow detail and tone mapping when compared directly to the same HDR images on my C7 OLED. I was seeing considerable differences in shadow detail before. 

Today I got the chance to compare the HDR Intensity Mapping to my latest results with the Arve/Panasonic combo and I must say, Jim has won the race. I've given him feedback in other iterations for issues I was seeing but this latest version seems to have resolved them all. The tone mapping looks fantastic on the high end with all the clips I typically look at for issues and the shadow detail on the bottom end is even better than I could achieve with my recent attempts using the other tools. Far more in line with what I see from C7 OLED in this regard. So for now HDR Intensity Mapping is definitely what I'll be using going forward at this point as it seems to deliver the best results I've seen so far! I did find some minor issues that Jim is looking at, but it was test pattern based only.


----------



## Mike_WI

Kris Deering said:


> Had a chance to finally get in and test the newest HDR intensity mapping today. I am using a JVC RS4500 and while I have thought the HDR Intensity mapping does a good job, I had been getting better results with a custom curve made using the ARVE software spoken about so much in the JVC threads. Just recently I had dialed things in nicely with that tool in combination with the dynamic range slider on the Panasonic UB900 to get the right balance of shadow detail and tone mapping when compared directly to the same HDR images on my C7 OLED. I was seeing considerable differences in shadow detail before.
> 
> Today I got the chance to compare the HDR Intensity Mapping to my latest results with the Arve/Panasonic combo and I must say, Jim has won the race. I've given him feedback in other iterations for issues I was seeing but this latest version seems to have resolved them all. The tone mapping looks fantastic on the high end with all the clips I typically look at for issues and the shadow detail on the bottom end is even better than I could achieve with my recent attempts using the other tools. Far more in line with what I see from C7 OLED in this regard. So for now HDR Intensity Mapping is definitely what I'll be using going forward at this point as it seems to deliver the best results I've seen so far! I did find some minor issues that Jim is looking at, but it was test pattern based only.


Great to hear.
One reason (besides time constraints) that I've been holding out for a professional calibration is to wait until the Oppo 203 and Radiance Pro FW updates mature enough.
Sounds like we are there.

Mike


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 091217*

*FW Beta 091217*
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 091217*
Improved video delay command (in menu at *Input: Options: Delay* ) to be variable from 0-116ms in steps of 16ms. 
Improved switch time for case with Pro genlock on and Pro output mode not changing. 
Fix for powering up on 9Ghz input with non-hdcp source not getting video until switching away from and back. 
Output trigger fixed for HDR improved for source changing only hdr/sdr mode. 
Bugfix for 44xx with 18Ghz input card powering up on 4k source and getting noisy, zoomed in video. 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> *FW Beta 091217*
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 091217*
> Improved video delay command (in menu at *Input: Options: Delay* ) to be variable from 0-116ms in steps of 16ms.
> Improved switch time for case with Pro genlock on and Pro output mode not changing.
> Fix for powering up on 9Ghz input with non-hdcp source not getting video until switching away from and back.
> Output trigger fixed for HDR improved for source changing only hdr/sdr mode.
> Bugfix for 44xx with 18Ghz input card powering up on 4k source and getting noisy, zoomed in video.
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I’m not understanding the English here: “Output trigger fixed for HDR improved for source changing only hdr/sdr mode”...


----------



## Kris Deering

I think it is a trigger function based on whether the input signal is either HDR or SDR.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Had a chance to finally get in and test the newest HDR intensity mapping today. I am using a JVC RS4500 and while I have thought the HDR Intensity mapping does a good job, I had been getting better results with a custom curve made using the ARVE software spoken about so much in the JVC threads. Just recently I had dialed things in nicely with that tool in combination with the dynamic range slider on the Panasonic UB900 to get the right balance of shadow detail and tone mapping when compared directly to the same HDR images on my C7 OLED. I was seeing considerable differences in shadow detail before.
> 
> Today I got the chance to compare the HDR Intensity Mapping to my latest results with the Arve/Panasonic combo and I must say, Jim has won the race. I've given him feedback in other iterations for issues I was seeing but this latest version seems to have resolved them all. The tone mapping looks fantastic on the high end with all the clips I typically look at for issues and the shadow detail on the bottom end is even better than I could achieve with my recent attempts using the other tools. Far more in line with what I see from C7 OLED in this regard. So for now HDR Intensity Mapping is definitely what I'll be using going forward at this point as it seems to deliver the best results I've seen so far! I did find some minor issues that Jim is looking at, but it was test pattern based only.


Are you creating a 3D LUT for use with IM? If so, what are you using as the source and target. Also, what color space are you selecting on your JVC. Assuming your are doing HDR2020 in and SDR2020 out to your projector. Thanks. SJ


----------



## sillysally

Kris Deering said:


> Far more in line with what I see from C7 OLED in this regard.
> 
> I did find some minor issues that Jim is looking at, but it was test pattern based only.


Are you using LG's HDR calibration notes/Calman and the 20 point grayscale in the C7 or just using the 2 point H/L settings.?

Is the issue of test patterns with the Pro, not sending the correct triplet value or caused by the calibration software.?

ss


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Are you creating a 3D LUT for use with IM? If so, what are you using as the source and target. Also, what color space are you selecting on your JVC. Assuming your are doing HDR2020 in and SDR2020 out to your projector. Thanks. SJ


Not doing a 3D LUT. I tried doing that with CalMan and doing a power 2.4 with 2020 color. The gamma turns out fantastic but the color is all screwy. So I just use the 1D LUT for the grayscale/gamma and then stick with the HDR color space on the projector. With grayscale dialed in the default HDR color space does a fantastic job with BT2020 when I measure it. High dE's with the way out saturations, but its tracking inside is VERY good, even with a large color patch set.


----------



## Kris Deering

sillysally said:


> Are you using LG's HDR calibration notes/Calman and the 20 point grayscale in the C7 or just using the 2 point H/L settings.?
> 
> Is the issue of test patterns with the Pro, not sending the correct triplet value or caused by the calibration software.?
> 
> ss


Tyler Pruit came out and did the calibration on my OLED so that he could use some backdoor stuff for the DV side as well. 

The main issue I saw with the Pro had to do with one specific test pattern acting funky compared to with IM off. Jim is looking into it, but it isn't a test pattern generator problem, just how the Radiance is handling a certain pattern when I display it from a disc.


----------



## sillysally

Kris Deering said:


> Tyler Pruit came out and did the calibration on my OLED so that he could use some backdoor stuff for the DV side as well.
> 
> The main issue I saw with the Pro had to do with one specific test pattern acting funky compared to with IM off. Jim is looking into it, but it isn't a test pattern generator problem, just how the Radiance is handling a certain pattern when I display it from a disc.


Ya I just got a HDFury integral a few days ago so I could use Calman's internal 'DV' pattern generator and do the "backdoor stuff for the DV" calibration on my C7. 

Boy you don't mess around, you got Tyler (Calman) to do a DV calibration on your C7.
If anybody knows how to use Calman's DV workflow to calibrate the C7, hes the guy.
Had I know it was Tyler calibrating the C7, he would have probably used a VideoForge or Murideo SIX-G and bypassed the Pro altogether. 

ss


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> my gear: Sony 5000, 1.0 2.35 AT screen (with motorized 16:9 side masking), Radiance pro, X-rite display 3 pro, Chromapure.
> 
> not sure if some of those questions are just stupid, but calibrating a PJ is painfull but after speeding that much money I want to try do everything right...
> 
> I use this forum because at the end it's more about the Radiance...
> 
> Focus:
> I can't really see a real difference being close to the sweet spot, sure there a differences, but not more or less in focus, just different.
> How do you properly set up focus as good as possible? There must be a trick...?
> 
> Convergence:
> when alligning e.g. red/green, which is out of the box pretty good, I could get e.g. red to disappear a bit more.
> But isn't it better to have the line as much yellow as possible instead, because it looks more greenish when red disappeared and it's more yellow when it isn't.
> Does that make even sense?
> 
> Black:
> Using the radiance pattern (Contrast 2), I can go down to 43/44 and still see the above then black while below black just disappeared.
> Isn't that unusual? (I have a pretty dark room)
> 
> Contrast:
> It seems with the Sony I could use 100 without any of the issues to avoid. Is that valid?
> Should the goal be to not go with 100 anyway but just try for a certain brightness (48 cd/m2)?
> (Laser on 80)
> 
> Screen format:
> with a 2.35 screen, does it make a real difference which size I use for calibration: 16:9 or 2.35 or do everything useful twice?
> 
> CRM:
> When using ChromaPure (soon to have HDR auto-cal), should I leave all the CRM settings on the 5000 left alone and do everything with the Radiance (except focus, black, white of course) using auto-cal and a CRM bank?
> 
> HDR:
> Even once Chromapure has HDR auto-cal, should I still prefer to do HDR2020 -> SDR2020 -> Sony or just let autocal deal with it?
> 
> 
> Would very much appriciate if you have some feedback.
> Of course I'd also like any additional comments you might have.
> 
> thanks, roland


bump?

Just one Reply guys?
Come on, I know you can do better. Please?


----------



## Kris Deering

sillysally said:


> Ya I just got a HDFury integral a few days ago so I could use Calman's internal 'DV' pattern generator and do the "backdoor stuff for the DV" calibration on my C7.
> 
> Boy you don't mess around, you got Tyler (Calman) to do a DV calibration on your C7.
> If anybody knows how to use Calman's DV workflow to calibrate the C7, hes the guy.
> Had I know it was Tyler calibrating the C7, he would have probably used a VideoForge or Murideo SIX-G and bypassed the Pro altogether.
> 
> ss


I'm not using the Pro with my C7. The C7 is in my family room and is calibrated using only its controls and the backdoor for DV that Tyler used. I only use the Radiance Pro with my RS4500 in the theater room.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Not doing a 3D LUT. I tried doing that with CalMan and doing a power 2.4 with 2020 color. The gamma turns out fantastic but the color is all screwy. So I just use the 1D LUT for the grayscale/gamma and then stick with the HDR color space on the projector. With grayscale dialed in the default HDR color space does a fantastic job with BT2020 when I measure it. High dE's with the way out saturations, but its tracking inside is VERY good, even with a large color patch set.


What is the JVC standard colorspace you are using (settings)? Also, assume you are sending SDR2020 from the Pro to your RS4500? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> What is the JVC standard colorspace you are using (settings)? Also, assume you are sending SDR2020 from the Pro to your RS4500? Thanks. SJ


I am using the HDR color profile, as mentioned before (not BT2020). I am sending SDR2020 from the Pro, I do this mainly so it doesn't force the PJ into the HDR picture mode automatically. Some movies (mainly Lionsgate ones) use SDR for their menus even though they are HDR Blu-rays. This makes the projector synch back and forth with the picture profile and I don't like that.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> I am using the HDR color profile, as mentioned before (not BT2020). I am sending SDR2020 from the Pro, I do this mainly so it doesn't force the PJ into the HDR picture mode automatically. Some movies (mainly Lionsgate ones) use SDR for their menus even though they are HDR Blu-rays. This makes the projector synch back and forth with the picture profile and I don't like that.


Thanks for that info. What would be the closest thing on a JVC RS600 (eg a user memory with what selections)? SJ


----------



## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> Thanks for that info. What would be the closest thing on a JVC RS600 (eg a user memory with what selections)? SJ


Wouldn't that be the BT2020 profile you download from the JVC site? However, what I'm unclear on is whether that still demands using the Gamma D setting in the JVC. And if that's the case, I'd wonder if there's an alternative.


----------



## SJHT

Understand. Was using a custom Gamma with the BT2020. However, understand that this is not needed with IM on. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

With a RS600 I would use the 2020 color profile that JVC provided via download. Yes it uses the filter so you lose a tiny bit of light, but it isn't enough to give up the full P3 gamut for. Then you'd want a 2.4 power gamma. The IM overlays this.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> With a RS600 I would use the 2020 color profile that JVC provided via download. Yes it uses the filter so you lose a tiny bit of light, but it isn't enough to give up the full P3 gamut for. Then you'd want a 2.4 power gamma. The IM overlays this.


Thanks Kris. So, I would select one of my user picture modes and set the color profile to BT2020. Select a custom Gamma and set the value to 2.4? Not sure what power Gamma means. Also, any recommendation on color temp? SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Thanks Kris. So, I would select one of my user picture modes and set the color profile to BT2020. Select a custom Gamma and set the value to 2.4? Not sure what power Gamma means. Also, any recommendation on color temp? SJ


Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like you'd be better off hiring a calibrator for your setup. Judging from your posts it feels like your grasp of this stuff is still on the lower side, so having someone come out would probably net you the best results. Considering the cost of a Radiance Pro, a calibration is a drop in the bucket to ensure you are taking full advantage of your setup.

As for color temp, UHD still uses D65.


----------



## SJHT

If you have any recommendations, please send them to me. I've posted in the calibrator section thread and only got feedback from Ken W. However, he hasn't made it out to my location. Finding someone with the right experience with JVC and Lumagen seems to be difficult. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*Calibrators*



SJHT said:


> If you have any recommendations, please send them to me. I've posted in the calibrator section thread and only got feedback from Ken W. However, he hasn't made it out to my location. Finding someone with the right experience with JVC and Lumagen seems to be difficult. Thanks. SJ


Craig Rounds 
http://www.cir-engineering.com/calibration-equipment/

Chad B
http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/tours.html
http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/faq.html


----------



## SJHT

I've already signed up for Chad.....


----------



## sillysally

Kris Deering said:


> I'm not using the Pro with my C7. The C7 is in my family room and is calibrated using only its controls and the backdoor for DV that Tyler used. I only use the Radiance Pro with my RS4500 in the theater room.


Yes that is what I thought. 
The Pro is pretty much useless to use for calibrating a flat panel like the C7 in HDR mode. You were right.

On a side note, have you posted about the 'backdoor' DV calibration on your C7. I would like to read your thoughts.

ss


----------



## Kris Deering

sillysally said:


> Yes that is what I thought.
> The Pro is pretty much useless to use for calibrating a flat panel like the C7 in HDR mode. You were right.
> 
> On a side note, have you posted about the 'backdoor' DV calibration on your C7. I would like to read your thoughts.
> 
> ss


I have not. It is something that CalMan can do that involves updating the Golden Reference file that Dolby uses with that TV. Basically taking into account any difference between your specific display and what the Golden Reference file is for that line of displays. Tyler had mentioned that mine was a little brighter than most of the 2017 models he had measured, so I guess it takes that into account a bit. I didn't get the chance to do a lot of DV content viewing before the calibration so I can't comment on whether there was a lot of difference afterwards. The C7's are already pretty good out of the box to my knowledge.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> I’m not understanding the English here: “Output trigger fixed for HDR improved for source changing only hdr/sdr mode”...


As Kris pointed out the HDR mode for the 12 Volt trigger is active when the source is HDR and off when the source is not HDR.

This was requested by a Radiance Pro owner. He uses it to trigger his projector to go to a higher lamp brightness for HDR sources.


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> Yes that is what I thought.
> The Pro is pretty much useless to use for calibrating a flat panel like the C7 in HDR mode. You were right. ...
> 
> ss


I don't know why you keep saying this. It is not true. 

With Lightspace you can calibrate any TV or projector for SDR and HDR using the Radiance Pro 1D and 3D LUTs.

Using Calman you can calibrate SDR 3D LUT, and the grayscale/Gamma for HDR. Hopefully Calman will add HDR 3D LUT calibration soon. In the mean time you can do a SDR2020 3D LUT with the Pro set to output SDR2020 (not as good a 3D LUT as a true HDR calibration but can work).

Kris uses the Pro only for his JVC 4500 since he does not have a Pro for his TV. Totally different than the meaning you imply.


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> I don't know why you keep saying this. It is not true.
> With Lightspace you can calibrate any TV or projector for SDR and HDR using the Radiance Pro 1D and 3D LUTs.


Jim, you may want to read this post from Chris.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-48.html#post52478745

Yes for SDR there is no question that you can use the Pro for 3DLUT's, when calibrating a 2015/2017 LG OLED. And imho using LightSpace and the Pro for 3DLUT's can best any manual calibration that can be done using the internal calibration controls of the LG 4K OLED.

Of course you can do a HDR 3DLUT for a LG OLED 2015/2017, however the results (PQ) will not come close to what you can do using the internal controls of the 2017 LG OLED for HDR megadata formatted Blu Ray.

The difference between the LG OLED (most consumer flat screens) and a projector, is how it processes or lack of processing the megadata.
The only way to turn off LG's megadata processing is to strip the megadata from the video stream. So now you are sending SDR/2020 video signal to a very capable HDR/2020 display, Don't forget when striping the megadata from a UHD/HDR formatted disc, LG treats the video signal as if it was a SDR formatted video, therefore processing as SDR/REC.709 color space. 



jrp said:


> Using Calman you can calibrate SDR 3D LUT, and the grayscale/Gamma for HDR. Hopefully Calman will add HDR 3D LUT calibration soon. In the mean time you can do a SDR2020 3D LUT with the Pro set to output SDR2020 (not as good a 3D LUT as a true HDR calibration but can work).


Calman I think does have HDR 3DLUT workflow, it just doesn't work very well.
However you can use Calman for calibrating the HDR ST.2084 grayscale using LG's 2017 calibration notes.
http://www.lg.com/us/support/products/documents/Calibration Notes for 2017 LG OLED TVs.pdf
Because the C7 has both H/L and 20 point manual grayscale settings, you don't need the Pro for that.



jrp said:


> Kris uses the Pro only for his JVC 4500 since he does not have a Pro for his TV. Totally different than the meaning you imply.


Of course I know he uses the Pro for his projector, not his C7. But he does use his internally calibrated C7 as a reference for HDR. 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-66.html#post54843502
btw. The pro can output to more than one display, its very versatile.

Other than your thinking that the Pro will get better results or even close results using a HDR/2020 or SDR/2020 3DLUT for HDR megadata, as opposed to doing a manual calibration using the internal controls of the C7. I agree the Pro is very good.
I should add that using a SDR 3DLUT (about 155 nits, wide gamut) plus using the Pro set to output SDR/2020. Works well and may best manual cal for LG, streaming Netflix sending a video stream formatted in SDR/2020. Via Ruku P+ using a HDMI input of the Pro's and using one HDMI video only out to the C7 and the HDMI audio only 18GHz out to audio system.
ss


----------



## xchap2001

Hello guys is it ok using a macbook to update the randiance pro using parallel for windows 10?
and can i use calibrate lightspace with the same macbook using parallel window 10? or is it better using a windows laptop.........


----------



## jrp

xchap2001 said:


> Hello guys is it ok using a macbook to update the randiance pro using parallel for windows 10?
> and can i use calibrate lightspace with the same macbook using parallel window 10? or is it better using a windows laptop.........


You can use a Windows emulator on a MAC to update the Radiance Pro.

I believe you can use a Windows emulator for Lightspace as well, but do not know if anyone has succeeded in doing this.


----------



## jrp

Silly Sally:

Yes I read Kris' post. Allow me to suggest you read it again and then read mine. I believe you are misinterpreting what Kris said and not understanding what I said.

Lumagen STRONGLY recommends you have the Radiance Pro output HDR in a "SDR container" (Colorspace = SDR2020) to avoid the issues with the HDR processing in TVs and projectors. This is a fundamental point. We believe the Radiance Pro should NOT send HDR to the TV/Projector as HDR if it can be avoided since they are not great (in general) at tone mapping and certainly from everyone's reports the Radiance Pro does tone mapping significantly better that any TV/projector.

The only exception is if the TV/projector arbitrarily (and I believe inappropriately) limits the maximum output intensity in SDR mode. Then you have to choose better HDR Intensity Mapping with the Radiance Pro with the artificially limited brightness, or the less capable HDR tone mapping in the TV/Projector.

The Pro puts the HDR video into an "SDR Rec 2020 container." Yes it it is stripping the metadata (not megadata), but that is the point of calling it "HDR in a SDR container." The image on the screen is still HDR. As I have indicated in a number of posts, the processing Gamma is an artifact of hardware implementation. The ONLY thing that matters is that the image in front of the camera is reproduced as accurately as possible (or as intended by the director) on the screen. So the image is still HDR even when sent to the TV/projector in a "SDR container." Saying it is not HDR on the screen is not understanding the math involved.

Having said that, you can still calibrate with the Pro sending HDR to the TV/projector. The only requirement at this time is that you need to use the Radiance Pro with Lightspace to do this. This works very well, but at this time calibrators prefer the Lumagen recommended SDR2020 calibration. If you choose this HDR calibration it is done with the HDR tone mapping in the display on. The calibration measurements take this into account and you can do a correct calibration to your specified roll off parameters. Certainly you want to set the TV/projector control in a way that gets its tone mapping out of the way as much as possible, but saying this does not work is not understanding the math involved. 

The Primary and Secondary calibration in TVs and projectors is done in a mathematically non-linear "Hue Lightness Saturation" color space and so when used almost always makes colors within the color cube worse, not better. They do not properly deal with the non-control-points given they only control the primary and secondary points. This is true of all current TVs and projectors (none I know of use a 3D LUT). Proper calibration requires a 3D LUT. Some manufacturers are talking about adding a 3D LUT so this might change in the future. So, for now at least, you are better off not calibrating the primary and secondary points using the current TV/projector internal calibration. Thinking the TV/projector calibration tools can do as good a job as the Radiance Pro 3D LUT is not understanding the math involved.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jrp said:


> You can use a Windows emulator on a MAC to update the Radiance Pro.
> 
> I believe you can use a Windows emulator for Lightspace as well, but do not know if anyone has succeeded in doing this.


I used Parallels and Windpws XP and Windows 10 on a macbook pro for a year or so with LightSpace Lumagen. I do not know whether it will still work but expect it will. I now just use a dedicated s/h Windows7 laptop for this.


----------



## Surfdrifter

OK, I'm going to order a 4440 model in the next days, after I finish some tests with my cables.

It seems that I cannot lock to [email protected] (tried Billy Lynn UHD) to my RS500, which is to be expected, since it's a 15m/50ft HDMI cable. Even though it is active (Monoprice Luxe Series CL3) and says that it supports up to [email protected], I couldn't manage to get a lock from Oppo>RX-A3050>RS500. I still wish, it can be locked with a 18GBps output module

Fortunately, I have 2 spare Cat6 cables. I was thinking of getting this:
https://atlona.com/product/at-hdr-ex-70-2ps/ which claims 4K HDR10 @60hz upto 35m.

I'm sure I'm not going to need it very soon, so I was thinking, since the Pro series is modular, is it possible to create a HDBase-T output module to use with Lumagen? I don't know how exactly HDbase-t works, but I would think that connecting a device being many feet/meters away is better with HDbase-t.

Just curious, if it is feasible


----------



## dinamigym

Surfdrifter said:


> OK, I'm going to order a 4440 model in the next days, after I finish some tests with my cables.
> 
> It seems that I cannot lock to [email protected] (tried Billy Lynn UHD) to my RS500, which is to be expected, since it's a 15m/50ft HDMI cable. Even though it is active (Monoprice Luxe Series CL3) and says that it supports up to [email protected], I couldn't manage to get a lock from Oppo>RX-A3050>RS500. I still wish, it can be locked with a 18GBps output module
> 
> Fortunately, I have 2 spare Cat6 cables. I was thinking of getting this:
> https://atlona.com/product/at-hdr-ex-70-2ps/ which claims 4K HDR10 @60hz upto 35m.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not going to need it very soon, so I was thinking, since the Pro series is modular, is it possible to create a HDBase-T output module to use with Lumagen? I don't know how exactly HDbase-t works, but I would think that connecting a device being many feet/meters away is better with HDbase-t.
> 
> Just curious, if it is feasible




I have a 45ft HDMI run from my lumagen to my projector and have had good luck with this combination....

Ethereal MHX 12m cable, HDM-GA1 + power supply, & Ethereal MHX 1m cable.

Thanks

Ps tried several other cables types/options and nothing works even close to as good for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sillysally

JPR

It appears you may not understand how a 2017/2015 LG OLED works.

If you send the Pro a HDR (ST'2084/2000) video stream and then output SDR/2020 from the Pro. The C7 still goes into HDR mode, so you still get HDR (metadata) processing. *Not Good PQ*.

If you send a SDR/2020 video stream to the pro and then output as a SDR/2020 (may or may not have to use intensity mapping), that seems to work because the C7 will not go into HDR mode, as I said when using a Ruku P+ and Netflix. *Good PQ*.

If you use Lightspace to run a profile using the C7 in HDR mode, then convert color space to any of its main HDR formats, that doesn't work. *Not Good PQ*. 

If you turn on peak nits (C7 service menu option), you now have taken the C7 out of HDR mode but are getting the peak nits (740 nits). Then profile using a Standard SDR mode but peak nits of around 740, like ISF 1/2.
You also set the gamut in the C7 to wide, because you are using this profile to make a HDR mode 3DLUT.
Install the HDR 3DLUT in the Pro's memory and use HDR or SDR out setting in the Pro, the C7 still goes into HDR mode. *Not Good PQ*.

Now if you simply use pass though mode in the pro or take the Pro out of your video chain. Use the C7 and LG's calibration 2017 release notes for your 20 point grayscale calibration (you probably can short cut by just using the H/L settings to calibrate LG's 20 point grayscale). And yes leave the Gamut controls alone. *Good PQ*.

Your intensity mapping works about the same as LG's Dynamic contrast, when in HDR mode.

So the only way to use the Pro and a 3DLUT to get good PQ, is profile make 3DLUT SDR format (max nits about the same as a projector), *somehow* send the Pro a SDR/2020 video signal and output the same. Use the Pro's intensity mapping to brighten the picture if needed. *Good PQ*.

I hope this helps you to understand.

ss


----------



## Wookii

sillysally said:


> If you send the Pro a HDR (ST'2084/2000) video stream and then output SDR/2020 from the Pro. The C7 still goes into HDR mode, so you still get HDR (metadata) processing. *Not Good PQ*.
> 
> If you turn on peak nits (C7 service menu option), you now have taken the C7 out of HDR mode but are getting the peak nits (740 nits). Then profile using a Standard SDR mode but peak nits of around 740, like ISF 1/2.
> You also set the gamut in the C7 to wide, because you are using this profile to make a HDR mode 3DLUT.
> Install the HDR 3DLUT in the Pro's memory and use HDR or SDR out setting in the Pro, the C7 still goes into HDR mode. *Not Good PQ*.


That is strange behaviour - how does the C7 know the type of input into the Pro? Put another way, what metadata is the source component changing/removing when converting to SDR to input to the Pro, that the Pro is not able to change itself - I guess that is the crux of the issue.

If the Pro is changing the output info frames to SDR, the display should only see SDR on its input. It certainly seems to work this way on other devices.

I take it in the global parameters you have HDR switched off? I take it the Pro's info screen shows an SDR2020 output?


----------



## Wookii

Surfdrifter said:


> OK, I'm going to order a 4440 model in the next days, after I finish some tests with my cables.
> 
> It seems that I cannot lock to [email protected] (tried Billy Lynn UHD) to my RS500, which is to be expected, since it's a 15m/50ft HDMI cable. Even though it is active (Monoprice Luxe Series CL3) and says that it supports up to [email protected], I couldn't manage to get a lock from Oppo>RX-A3050>RS500. I still wish, it can be locked with a 18GBps output module
> 
> Fortunately, I have 2 spare Cat6 cables. I was thinking of getting this:
> https://atlona.com/product/at-hdr-ex-70-2ps/ which claims 4K HDR10 @60hz upto 35m.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not going to need it very soon, so I was thinking, since the Pro series is modular, is it possible to create a HDBase-T output module to use with Lumagen? I don't know how exactly HDbase-t works, but I would think that connecting a device being many feet/meters away is better with HDbase-t.
> 
> Just curious, if it is feasible


The RuiPro fibre cables seem to be the most stable 'single cable' option currently. Mine worked for me where a Celerity version would not.

That said I expect we'll see 48G+ cables coming out in the next 6-12 months, so it might be worth holding off if you can wait.

https://www.cepro.com/article/fibbr_fiber_optical_hdmi_cables_cedia


----------



## Surfdrifter

Yes. I can wait. For the time being, being able to send 4K/24 HDR is what I want, so I can do an upgrade in a couple of years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Surfdrifter

Just a question, before ordering, if anyone knows now. If I get a 4440, will I be able to add input modules at a later time, to increase the inputs? I guess yes, but want to be sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

Surfdrifter said:


> Just a question, before ordering, if anyone knows now. If I get a 4440, will I be able to add input modules at a later time, to increase the inputs? I guess yes, but want to be sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes. I updated to a 4446. Details in my HT thread (link in signature).
Link: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...rack-rives-designed-room-19.html#post49215785

Mike


----------



## jrp

sillysally said:


> JPR
> 
> It appears you may not understand how a 2017/2015 LG OLED works.
> 
> If you send the Pro a HDR (ST'2084/2000) video stream and then output SDR/2020 from the Pro. The C7 still goes into HDR mode, so you still get HDR (metadata) processing. *Not Good PQ*.
> 
> If you send a SDR/2020 video stream to the pro and then output as a SDR/2020 (may or may not have to use intensity mapping), that seems to work because the C7 will not go into HDR mode, as I said when using a Ruku P+ and Netflix. *Good PQ*.
> 
> If you use Lightspace to run a profile using the C7 in HDR mode, then convert color space to any of its main HDR formats, that doesn't work. *Not Good PQ*.
> 
> If you turn on peak nits (C7 service menu option), you now have taken the C7 out of HDR mode but are getting the peak nits (740 nits). Then profile using a Standard SDR mode but peak nits of around 740, like ISF 1/2.
> You also set the gamut in the C7 to wide, because you are using this profile to make a HDR mode 3DLUT.
> Install the HDR 3DLUT in the Pro's memory and use HDR or SDR out setting in the Pro, the C7 still goes into HDR mode. *Not Good PQ*.
> 
> Now if you simply use pass though mode in the pro or take the Pro out of your video chain. Use the C7 and LG's calibration 2017 release notes for your 20 point grayscale calibration (you probably can short cut by just using the H/L settings to calibrate LG's 20 point grayscale). And yes leave the Gamut controls alone. *Good PQ*.
> 
> Your intensity mapping works about the same as LG's Dynamic contrast, when in HDR mode.
> 
> So the only way to use the Pro and a 3DLUT to get good PQ, is profile make 3DLUT SDR format (max nits about the same as a projector), *somehow* send the Pro a SDR/2020 video signal and output the same. Use the Pro's intensity mapping to brighten the picture if needed. *Good PQ*.
> 
> I hope this helps you to understand.
> 
> ss


Yes I understand quite well how the LG works and have it on excellent authority from an extremely experienced calibrator that HDR to the Pro and SDR2020 out of the Pro using the HDR Intensity Mapping provides the best picture even considering the "dynamic tone mapping" in the LG. Your comments certainly do not disprove this.

Pretty much done with this conversation.


----------



## jrp

Surfdrifter said:


> Just a question, before ordering, if anyone knows now. If I get a 4440, will I be able to add input modules at a later time, to increase the inputs? I guess yes, but want to be sure.


You can install additional inputs in a 4440 in the field up to the maximum of 8.


----------



## sillysally

Wookii said:


> That is strange behaviour - how does the C7 know the type of input into the Pro? Put another way, what metadata is the source component changing/removing when converting to SDR to input to the Pro, that the Pro is not able to change itself - I guess that is the crux of the issue.
> 
> If the Pro is changing the output info frames to SDR, the display should only see SDR on its input. It certainly seems to work this way on other devices.
> 
> I take it in the global parameters you have HDR switched off? I take it the Pro's info screen shows an SDR2020 output?


Update:
I just remember what I was talking about in that post. It has to do with turning on HDR Mode's peak nits (about 740), but at the same time disabling HDR processing and modes. That is done using the service menu.

The reason why I did the above is to profile/3DLUT with LightSpace CMS, using a K10-A meter profiled with a Jeti 1211 and my C7 to display the WRGB window patches. The problem with that is even though you leave the C7 with the HDR peak nits on and HDR off, once the C7 gets a metadata flag from a HDR video signal the C7 overrides the service menu setting and uses it HDR processing. I bet Jim didn't know that.

My next adventure with the C7 now that I have a HDFury Integral to use with Calman's DV workflow and DV color patches. Is to calibrate my C7 for DV, and that I know will work.
Of course that leaves the Pro out of my video chain because the Pro will not pass though DV, or so I am told.
I am sure Jim will correct me if I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath on getting the HDR settings I asked Jim to PM me. I would love to prove to myself there is a way to best the 2017 LG OLED calibration notes calibration, having to use the Pro.

ss


----------



## sillysally

jrp said:


> Yes I understand quite well how the LG works and have it on excellent authority from an extremely experienced calibrator that HDR to the Pro and SDR2020 out of the Pro using the HDR Intensity Mapping provides the best picture even considering the "dynamic tone mapping" in the LG. Your comments certainly do not disprove this.
> 
> Pretty much done with this conversation.


Great, can you please PM me what are the detailed settings he/she are using in the pro and has any type of calibration been done with the C7. Just saying what a 3rd party said without there proof, doesn't make it so.
If you are quoting me its "LG's Dynamic contrast" in the C7 not "dynamic tone mapping", and that can be disabled. 
btw; I take it he is commenting on a 2017 LG OLED. 

ss


----------



## Wookii

sillysally said:


> Update:
> I just remember what I was talking about in that post. It has to do with turning on HDR Mode's peak nits (about 740), but at the same time disabling HDR processing and modes. That is done using the service menu.
> 
> The reason why I did the above is to profile/3DLUT with LightSpace CMS, using a K10-A meter profiled with a Jeti 1211 and my C7 to display the WRGB window patches. The problem with that is even though you leave the C7 with the HDR peak nits on and HDR off, once the C7 gets a metadata flag from a HDR video signal the C7 overrides the service menu setting and uses it HDR processing. I bet Jim didn't know that.


Yes, but that is the point. If you have HDR output switched off in the Pro's global settings, and are using the SDR2020 output, your C7 shouldn't go into HDR mode, as it is not (or shouldn't be) seeing a HDR input. To calibrate you then simply produce a Rec2020 3D LUT with a 2.4 power gamma in CMS1. Have you done this?


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 091917*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*
Beta 091917*
Small fix for 1 pixel skew on HDR intensity mapping. 
Fix for auto input selection sometimes not switching when active source turned off. 
A fix for specific case of no video on initial power-up. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*~5 min update*



Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *
> Beta 091917*
> Small fix for 1 pixel skew on HDR intensity mapping.
> Fix for auto input selection sometimes not switching when active source turned off.
> A fix for specific case of no video on initial power-up.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


It's interesting that this is a ~5 min update vs. the usual ~1 min update for what sounds like relatively minor changes.
The last FW update this long was Beta 072117.

Mike


----------



## sillysally

Wookii said:


> Yes, but that is the point. If you have HDR output switched off in the Pro's global settings, and are using the SDR2020 output, your C7 shouldn't go into HDR mode, as it is not (or shouldn't be) seeing a HDR input. To calibrate you then simply produce a Rec2020 3D LUT with a 2.4 power gamma in CMS1. Have you done this?


Yes that will work, and as I said SRD/2020 will rival a manual calibration in the C7. 
But it seems if you are using Amazon or Netflix streaming a HDR/UHD video you will not be able the use the Pro's mapping because the above seems to only send a SDR/2020 stream. The Pro tells me the signal is not HDR so mapping is disabled.

btw; its not all that simply to run a larger profile and make a 3DLUT. But it can be done.
See screen shot of color conversions for 2020.

Thanks for you concern.

ss


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike_WI said:


> It's interesting that this is a ~5 min update vs. the usual ~1 min update for what sounds like relatively minor changes.
> The last FW update this long was Beta 072117.
> 
> Mike


The one pixel skew was the issue I found that I reported when I recently talked about looking at the HDR intensity mapping. According to Jim it wasn't a trivial fix, so maybe that is why it takes so much time.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> It's interesting that this is a ~5 min update vs. the usual ~1 min update for what sounds like relatively minor changes.
> The last FW update this long was Beta 072117.


This update includes a new FPGA load. Most updates only affect the microprocessor software and take about a minute at 230K BAUD.

The FPGA design update is large and when it is updated increases the update time to about 5 minutes. This applies to any change in the FPGA no matter how small.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> The one pixel skew was the issue I found that I reported when I recently talked about looking at the HDR intensity mapping. According to Jim it wasn't a trivial fix, so maybe that is why it takes so much time.


Ok I'll bite...what is a one pixel skew?


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> The one pixel skew was the issue I found that I reported when I recently talked about looking at the HDR intensity mapping. According to Jim it wasn't a trivial fix, so maybe that is why it takes so much time.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I'll bite...what is a one pixel skew?
Click to expand...

In one of the white level patterns the blocks were shifted a single pixel creating a noticeable line. I could only see this with a specific test pattern but they confirmed the bug.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> In one of the white level patterns the blocks were shifted a single pixel creating a noticeable line. I could only see this with a specific test pattern but they confirmed the bug.


No wonder I thought the picture looked a little sharper after the update!


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> Ok I'll bite...what is a one pixel skew?


The effect of the HDR Intensity Mapping calculation was off by one pixel delay due to a pipeline delay error in an FPGA internal SRAM simulation model. In Verilog simulation everything was fine, but in the actual Radiance Pro unit the mapping calculation was applied to the pixel next to the one it should have been.

Given this is at 4k resolution and neighboring pixels generally have similar values and that the mapping values changes have a modest effect on levels this did not show up on anything other than a test pattern.


----------



## sillysally

Can't get the Integral to sink/handshake with a Lumagen Pro 444x, using the Integral as a switcher.
Oppo 203 to 2.2 (video only) input and Ruko P+ (video/audio) to 1.4 input of the Integral.
Integral 2.2 HDMI out to HDMI 1n 2.2 of the Pro.

The Integral keeps cycling through different formats.
The Pro is slow at switching from one format to another or screens.

Also I use a Samsung 950 DA soundbar/speakers. 
Pro HDMI 2.2 out port audio only, connected to input 2.2 port of the 950.

Any ideas.?

ss


----------



## darrellh44

sillysally said:


> Can't get the Integral to sink/handshake with a Lumagen Pro 444x, using the Integral as a switcher.
> Oppo 203 to 2.2 (video only) input and Ruko P+ (video/audio) to 1.4 input of the Integral.
> Integral 2.2 HDMI out to HDMI 1n 2.2 of the Pro.
> 
> The Integral keeps cycling through different formats.
> The Pro is slow at switching from one format to another or screens.
> 
> Also I use a Samsung 950 DA soundbar/speakers.
> Pro HDMI 2.2 out port audio only, connected to input 2.2 port of the 950.
> 
> Any ideas.?
> 
> ss


Does it work without the Integral? I would think there would be better options for a switcher than an Integral. Do you have an AVR or PrePro?


----------



## sillysally

darrellh44 said:


> Does it work without the Integral? I would think there would be better options for a switcher than an Integral. Do you have an AVR or PrePro?


*Update*
I am happy to report that the latest update (Beta 092117) for the Pro fixed all the issues with the 203, Ruku and the HW-K950. 
In a few days I will try the Integral.

Beta 091917.
Yes but with the latest firmware for the Pro, the 18 GHz HDMI out port is not working well for video only or audio only. Very slow connecting to my display or soundbar, sometimes I need to restart the Pro to get video and most of the time I need to restart my HW-K950 soundbar. 
The above is when I use the Ruku P+.
When I use the Oppo 203 the connection is slow but I only pass video to the Pro, audio only is outputted from the 203 to the HW-K950.

The main reason why I got the Integral is to put my display into DV mode so I could use Calman's internal pattern generator to calibrate DV for my display. But if I could use the Integral for two HDR sources, then that would open up my second HDMI input 18GHz port in the Pro for a third source.

ss


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 092117*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 092117*
Fix for some sources not triggering the Pro's HDR intensity mapping when going SDR out from the Pro (particular case was with Nvidia Shield + Netflix). 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Kris Deering

Been spending more time with the HDR intensity mapping. So far I think it is safe to say that from a user point of view the ONLY metric that matters when it comes to HDR metadata is the MaxCLL. It is funny that HDR comments typically talk about the display used (max nits) so often yet this has almost NOTHING to do with the image you get because even titles done on a 4000 nit monitor rarely if ever go anywhere near that high, even at the pixel level. MaxCLL tells you the highest pixel level achieved, though MaxFALL gives you an idea of how bright the overall average image is. This makes the approach of having two different settings for titles > or < than 2000 interesting because though one may be higher, its overall image may be dimmer than one below that threshold. Also, from my conversations at Spectracal, the actual metadata isn't always correct, and since MaxCLL is for a single pixel, you can get some arbitrary number (see Chappie) that really doesn't represent the film very well. 


I don't envy Lumagen at all in having to make sense of this and figure out a way to make it work well with most titles. I also wonder how dynamic metadata or frame by frame tone mapping would work very well without some kind of filter that eliminate "junk" pixel data that would cause tone mapping to trip up solely because some random pixel is so high.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Been spending more time with the HDR intensity mapping. So far I think it is safe to say that from a user point of view the ONLY metric that matters when it comes to HDR metadata is the MaxCLL. It is funny that HDR comments typically talk about the display used (max nits) so often yet this has almost NOTHING to do with the image you get because even titles done on a 4000 nit monitor rarely if ever go anywhere near that high, even at the pixel level. MaxCLL tells you the highest pixel level achieved, though MaxFALL gives you an idea of how bright the overall average image is. This makes the approach of having two different settings for titles > or < than 2000 interesting because though one may be higher, its overall image may be dimmer than one below that threshold. Also, from my conversations at Spectracal, the actual metadata isn't always correct, and since MaxCLL is for a single pixel, you can get some arbitrary number (see Chappie) that really doesn't represent the film very well.
> 
> 
> I don't envy Lumagen at all in having to make sense of this and figure out a way to make it work well with most titles. I also wonder how dynamic metadata or frame by frame tone mapping would work very well without some kind of filter that eliminate "junk" pixel data that would cause tone mapping to trip up solely because some random pixel is so high.


It is a dilemma. Mad Max is another example with a MaxCLL of 9919, and an ScrMax of 4000. I think the Lumagen IM does a great job now of selecting a hard clip point at a reasonable level between MaxCLL and ScrMax, but I agree with the point that the metadata being relied upon could well be inaccurate.

Whats more it appears to differ between devices, with the Kaleidescape Strato reporting different metadata to the physical discs of the same movies.

Personally I’d like to see a future IM implementation where the Radiance Pro reads ahead by a frame and calculates its own dynamic tone mapping based on that frames peak luminance. That then removes the reliance on possible incorrect metadata, and will also possibly give users more control over how much range and variation that dynamic tone mapping is allowed to use between frames.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> It is a dilemma. Mad Max is another example with a MaxCLL of 9919, and an ScrMax of 4000. I think the Lumagen IM does a great job now of selecting a hard clip point at a reasonable level between MaxCLL and ScrMax, but I agree with the point that the metadata being relied upon could well be inaccurate.
> 
> Whats more it appears to differ between devices, with the Kaleidescape Strato reporting different metadata to the physical discs of the same movies.
> 
> Personally I’d like to see a future IM implementation where the Radiance Pro reads ahead by a frame and calculates its own dynamic tone mapping based on that frames peak luminance. That then removes the reliance on possible incorrect metadata, and will also possibly give users more control over how much range and variation that dynamic tone mapping is allowed to use between frames.


This is what the better flat panels do (7 series OLED, Sony Z9D) for their tone mapping. It is interesting going through the metadata for the titles I own and seeing how many have a MaxCLL above 2K and then what MaxFall is for them. Quite a few of the Sony titles report MaxCLL as 10K, which makes me think they did this because of the test patterns that are encoded on the disc. I also see that most of the titles I own with MaxCLL above 2K have a MaxFall less than 500. I also have quite a few that MaxCLL is only slightly above 2K making me wonder if the crossover should be 2500 instead of 4000. 


I am going to look at a bunch of these tonight and see if my settings work pretty well across all the titles or if there are obvious inconsistencies.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> This is what the better flat panels do (7 series OLED, Sony Z9D) for their tone mapping. It is interesting going through the metadata for the titles I own and seeing how many have a MaxCLL above 2K and then what MaxFall is for them. Quite a few of the Sony titles report MaxCLL as 10K, which makes me think they did this because of the test patterns that are encoded on the disc. I also see that most of the titles I own with MaxCLL above 2K have a MaxFall less than 500. I also have quite a few that MaxCLL is only slightly above 2K making me wonder if the crossover should be 2500 instead of 4000.
> 
> 
> I am going to look at a bunch of these tonight and see if my settings work pretty well across all the titles or if there are obvious inconsistencies.


I'll be interested to hear your findings if you wouldn't mind posting in here.

This is a useful source of metadata for many movies (put together by AVS members using metadata shown by HDFury devices):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15pPvBMCjJogKxt4jau4UI_yp7sxOVPIccob6fRe85_A/edit#gid=184653968

Its interesting to analyse those titles listed. A third of them have no MaxFALL/MaxCLL metadata at all, so IM has to rely on the ScrMax for the clip point. Of the other two thirds (59 films) less that a quarter (13 films) have MaxCLL over 2500nits.

Given the variability of titles, the fact that IM now uses a title-by-title clip point, and a possible future of dynamic metadata, I personally would like to see the cross over between IM settings (and therefore two sets of IM settings) removed completely so that we only need to enter one set of settings into the Pro that will work for all possible clip points, and the IM algorithm flexs accordingly to suit high and low clip point titles.


----------



## Kris Deering

I have a good list of title data, but thanks! I set the source max to 2000 for titles with no metadata. Made sense given the studios that have omitted it and their past trend data.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> I have a good list of title data, but thanks! I set the source max to 2000 for titles with no metadata. Made sense given the studios that have omitted it and their past trend data.


The Source Max setting won't affect those titles that don't have MaxCLL data AFAIK, those titles will revert to the ScrMax for IM in that case. The Source Max setting is purely for inputs that have no metadata at all, such as games (again, AFAIK).


----------



## Kris Deering

I'll have to look into this. You can force a MaxCLL with Menu 0533, which helps. I am glad that Lumagen based their IM modes on MaxCLL vs Source max, though neither is a sure fire way to do it. But I think it is the better compromise. For titles with no MaxCLL you could use the Menu mode I mentioned before. This helps with titles that probably would fall below 2000 than above.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> I'll have to look into this. You can force a MaxCLL with Menu 0533, which helps. I am glad that Lumagen based their IM modes on MaxCLL vs Source max, though neither is a sure fire way to do it. But I think it is the better compromise. For titles with no MaxCLL you could use the Menu mode I mentioned before. This helps with titles that probably would fall below 2000 than above.



Hi Kris - can you expand in the 0533 menu option? It appears the new Apple TV Dolby Vision titles' HDR-10 Base layer have incorrect MAXCLL (not the regular HDR-10 titles - they look outstanding). I am working with Apple engineering on this...

So using 0533 I could set the MAXCLL to somewhere closer to the peak readings I see in menu 0532? For example, Star Trek Into Darkness on Apple AT is 4k DV, and highlights are blown out in a number of scenes, most notably when the Enterprise rises out of the water at the beginning. The MAXCLL reported is 1000 nits, but using the tool on 0532, that scene is more like 2500 nits.


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Hi Kris - can you expand in the 0533 menu option? It appears the new Apple TV Dolby Vision titles' HDR-10 Base layer have incorrect MAXCLL (not the regular HDR-10 titles - they look outstanding). I am working with Apple engineering on this...
> 
> So using 0533 I could set the MAXCLL to somewhere closer to the peak readings I see in menu 0532? For example, Star Trek Into Darkness on Apple AT is 4k DV, and highlights are blown out in a number of scenes, most notably when the Enterprise rises out of the water at the beginning. The MAXCLL reported is 1000 nits, but using the tool on 0532, that scene is more like 2500 nits.


Pretty simple. You just hit menu 0533 and it should be in AUTO and it will show you the REPORTED MaxCLL. If you go to OFF you can then change the number to whatever you want. 

But in your case I don't think it will make any difference. If the clipping is being done by the HDR conversion in the AppleTV, I don't think the Lumagen will undo it. If the display is what is causing it because of bad mapping, that would be one thing. If you're using HDR IM I don't think it would make enough difference either unless you have drastically different settings for above 2000 than below (which I can't imagine you would).


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Pretty simple. You just hit menu 0533 and it should be in AUTO and it will show you the REPORTED MaxCLL. If you go to OFF you can then change the number to whatever you want.


Thanks Kris, I wasn't aware of that option, thats useful. Do you have to go back into the option and turn it back to 'Auto' at the end of a movie, or will it reset to 'Auto' when going in and out of standby?


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> Thanks Kris, I wasn't aware of that option, thats useful. Do you have to go back into the option and turn it back to 'Auto' at the end of a movie, or will it reset to 'Auto' when going in and out of standby?


Two options. You can just enter the code again and switch it to Auto, or if you want to just do it for a single movie and not have to worry about remembering, just don't go into the menu and do a save. The setting will be cleared when you power cycle the Radiance (assuming you do this every time you use it. This is true of all settings that are changed and no save is done.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Pretty simple. You just hit menu 0533 and it should be in AUTO and it will show you the REPORTED MaxCLL. If you go to OFF you can then change the number to whatever you want.
> 
> But in your case I don't think it will make any difference. If the clipping is being done by the HDR conversion in the AppleTV, I don't think the Lumagen will undo it. If the display is what is causing it because of bad mapping, that would be one thing. If you're using HDR IM I don't think it would make enough difference either unless you have drastically different settings for above 2000 than below (which I can't imagine you would).


So I can notice changes fairly easily using the 0533 feature - the Star Trek Into Darkness ATC 4k DV HDR-10 base layer reports a MAXCLL of 1000 (according to the Radiance Debug screen), but I need to raise it to about 2300 to avoid clipping the highlights - so the data is there with this adjustment, its not hard clipped inside the ATV.

However, doing to flattens the image, and bright (but not blown out highlights) dim and lose some definition. The overall image does not appear darker, but the visible highlights flatten...

The other interesting thing is changing from 1999 to 2099 in menu 0533 causes a sudden shift in overall image brightness... I sent a video of this to Lumagen if it helps at all, and can post here tonight if anyone is interested.

Could the ATV be sending the DV layer as HDR-10 which is why all DV titles have issues? Would one expect heavier saturation and blown out highlights if it was sending DV to a non DV display chain?

As I've said before, I'm a functional idiot in matters such as this, so I don't know if there is a single source video stream with just different meta data being sent, or if there are actually physically different DV and HDR-10 graded streams with an additional layer of format specific meta data...


Kris, are you getting an ATV4k? Would be curious what you see with the DV titles on non-DV display chains. Again, HDR-10 specific titles looks fantastic.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Guess i need to upgrade my ATV to check all this out...


----------



## thrang

Gordon Fraser said:


> Guess i need to upgrade my ATV to check all this out...


You should be drawn to such new technology like fat people desiring vertically striped shirts...


4k HDR is astoundingly good. DV to HDR-10 has issues, and lack of source mode switching needs to be addressed - output is static right now.


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> So I can notice changes fairly easily using the 0533 feature - the Star Trek Into Darkness ATC 4k DV HDR-10 base layer reports a MAXCLL of 1000 (according to the Radiance Debug screen), but I need to raise it to about 2300 to avoid clipping the highlights - so the data is there with this adjustment, its not hard clipped inside the ATV.
> 
> However, doing to flattens the image, and bright (but not blown out highlights) dim and lose some definition. The overall image does not appear darker, but the visible highlights flatten...
> 
> The other interesting thing is changing from 1999 to 2099 in menu 0533 causes a sudden shift in overall image brightness... I sent a video of this to Lumagen if it helps at all, and can post here tonight if anyone is interested.
> 
> Could the ATV be sending the DV layer as HDR-10 which is why all DV titles have issues? Would one expect heavier saturation and blown out highlights if it was sending DV to a non DV display chain?
> 
> As I've said before, I'm a functional idiot in matters such as this, so I don't know if there is a single source video stream with just different meta data being sent, or if there are actually physically different DV and HDR-10 graded streams with an additional layer of format specific meta data...
> 
> 
> Kris, are you getting an ATV4k? Would be curious what you see with the DV titles on non-DV display chains. Again, HDR-10 specific titles looks fantastic.



Changing from 1999 to 2099 should show a decent change because that makes the IM processing use your other setup (remember, one setup is for below 2000 nit titles and the other is for above). This would definitely be the case if you have pretty drastic differences in your setup for the two different settings. 


Not sure how ATV is handling DV titles, but I imagine they either have a HDR10 base layer or they have some kind of static metadata that they use for conversion. Without talking to Apple it is all a shot in the dark. I do have a ATV4K but not in my theater room, I use that on my OLED downstairs. I'm not big on streaming media on my screen, I see too many artifacts. But I haven't tried the ATV4K in there yet so maybe the results would be better. In your setup menu are you sending out Dolby Vision or HDR? I remember they have a menu selection that can pick either.


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> Guess i need to upgrade my ATV to check all this out...


what is ATV?

dan


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Changing from 1999 to 2099 should show a decent change because that makes the IM processing use your other setup (remember, one setup is for below 2000 nit titles and the other is for above). This would definitely be the case if you have pretty drastic differences in your setup for the two different settings.
> 
> 
> Not sure how ATV is handling DV titles, but I imagine they either have a HDR10 base layer or they have some kind of static metadata that they use for conversion. Without talking to Apple it is all a shot in the dark. I do have a ATV4K but not in my theater room, I use that on my OLED downstairs. I'm not big on streaming media on my screen, I see too many artifacts. But I haven't tried the ATV4K in there yet so maybe the results would be better. In your setup menu are you sending out Dolby Vision or HDR? I remember they have a menu selection that can pick either.


Sending HDR-10 - there is no Dolby Vision option as I don't have a Dolby Vision display...I believe that drops from the menu once that's determined...it's not even in the menu for additional choices.


----------



## thrang

D_B_0673 said:


> what is ATV?
> 
> dan





Apple TV - new version is 4k...


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Sending HDR-10 - there is no Dolby Vision option as I don't have a Dolby Vision display...I believe that drops from the menu once that's determined...it's not even in the menu for additional choices.


Gotcha, I've only looked at the menu with my C7 OLED, so ALL the options were there.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Gotcha, I've only looked at the menu with my C7 OLED, so ALL the options were there.


Can your display properly show HDR-10? I’d so curious what you see comparing that scene from Into Darkness (Enterprise rising from the ocean) - Dolby Vision vs HDR10 video output on the ATV4K....


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Can your display properly show HDR-10? I’d so curious what you see comparing that scene from Into Darkness (Enterprise rising from the ocean) - Dolby Vision vs HDR10 video output on the ATV4K....


Display as in the OLED? I can try that scene both ways (DV vs HDR10) and let you know how it looks. I have that movie in my library so easy to test. I will try and get to it this weekend and report back.


----------



## D_B_0673

thrang said:


> Apple TV - new version is 4k...


thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

thrang said:


> Apple TV - new version is 4k...


I actually have been meaning to get one since it was announced but i've just not been at home to do it. Hopefully going to pick one up later today...


----------



## Tuning

I am thinking about getting a 4440 unit, but have a couple of questions. Does the pro unit support Dolby vision? Can this unit be upgraded to 4446 by adding new inputs later?


----------



## thrang

Tuning said:


> I am thinking about getting a 4440 unit, but have a couple of questions. Does the pro unit support Dolby vision? Can this unit be upgraded to 4446 by adding new inputs later?


No Dolby Vision support and I think Jim posted a few months back that is not on the roadmap.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

thrang said:


> No Dolby Vision support and I think Jim posted a few months back that is not on the roadmap.


but yes you can add more modules to make it a 4442 or a 4444 or a 4446


----------



## SJHT

Picked up an Apple TV 4K. Seems to work pretty solid with the Pro! SJ


----------



## KarlKlammer

Wookii said:


> Personally I’d like to see a future IM implementation where the Radiance Pro reads ahead by a frame and calculates its own dynamic tone mapping based on that frames peak luminance. That then removes the reliance on possible incorrect metadata, and will also possibly give users more control over how much range and variation that dynamic tone mapping is allowed to use between frames.


Some Displays already have their own way to analyze frames and dynamically modify tone mapping (for example LG and even this years Sony projectors have some kind of dynamic enhancement).
I'm quite happy with the current state of IM compared to the original implementation. But I also think, this frame analysis would be a major step to improve the HDR experience, provided that the Radiance has enough processing power and the result wouldn't look like a bad tuned dynamic iris.


----------



## BrolicBeast

SJHT said:


> Picked up an Apple TV 4K. Seems to work pretty solid with the Pro! SJ



Question: how does 4k streaming on the Apple TV through the Lumagen compare to a 4k disc? Also, does it contain the same metadata that allows the Lumagen to determine the nit mastering level (for IM purposes)? I know that Apple recently revamped their encoding, and I'm wondering if they're getting closer to disc quality. I'm _looking_ for a reason to move my Roku Ultra from the theater into the family room.


----------



## SJHT

BrolicBeast said:


> Question: how does 4k streaming on the Apple TV through the Lumagen compare to a 4k disc? Also, does it contain the same metadata that allows the Lumagen to determine the nit mastering level (for IM purposes)? I know that Apple recently revamped their encoding, and I'm wondering if they're getting closer to disc quality. I'm _looking_ for a reason to move my Roku Ultra from the theater into the family room.


It is OK, but disc (and in my case Kaleidescape as well) are superior including audio. We mostly used streaming to watch Netflix original content as well as others like HBO, etc. I also create movies and slide shows from my Mac and easy to show these through the Apple TV devices. Now, if they would finally add Amazon to these units which they are suppose to do soon.... Also, haven’t watched any HDR yet.... SJ


----------



## thrang

For me, 4K HDR appears identical to UHD. Outstanding....

4K Dolby Vision titles (relying on HDR-10 base layer information) seems to have some meta data or encoding issues resulting in occasional highlight blowout - working with Apple on investigating this, and I think Jim and Patrick are starting to look into what’s being delivered and how the Radiance is processing, so it’s a bit early to know what’s going on

But once this is addressed, and Atmos is added, it will be a killer box.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Display as in the OLED? I can try that scene both ways (DV vs HDR10) and let you know how it looks. I have that movie in my library so easy to test. I will try and get to it this weekend and report back.


Hi Kris


Did you ever get a chance to look at this...?


----------



## leemathre

I just want to give Jim Peterson of Lumagen a shout out for the best support I have ever received for any product from any vendor. I was one of the first 40 owners of a Radiance Pro and mine has logged many hours of use. My unit basically stopped working recently and I sent it in for repair. Jim went well above and beyond what I expected to get my Pro working and he treated me extremely well. I am a Lumagen fan for life.


----------



## D_B_0673

leemathre said:


> I just want to give Jim Peterson of Lumagen a shout out for the best support I have ever received for any product from any vendor. I was one of the first 40 owners of a Radiance Pro and mine has logged many hours of use. My unit basically stopped working recently and I sent it in for repair. Jim went well above and beyond what I expected to get my Pro working and he treated me extremely well. I am a Lumagen fan for life.


I echo your experience with Jim. I bought an Radiance XD in 2007, am still using it but will be upgrading to a pro next week (tuesday) along with a new JVC RS640. I am the farthest from understanding all this as a person could get and Jim, both 10yrs ago and now has patiently helped me. This level of customer service is unheard of. I will tell you, that if I could not buy from Jim, I will do without and just run my new JVC as is and without a external processor.
dan


----------



## mikigio

Good morning, I just received my Radiance Pro.

I would like to match it with a tv Oled Lg E6, I wanted to ask if it is possible to send the signal to the Tv at 18Ghz or if the maximum allowed is 9Ghz, I ask this because with the 18Ghz I can not see the pictures while the 9 ghz is all correct .

HDMI Cable or HDMI Input Problem (max 9ghz limit on tv?)....?


----------



## D_B_0673

mikigio said:


> Good morning, I just received my Radiance Pro.
> 
> I would like to match it with a tv Oled Lg E6, I wanted to ask if it is possible to send the signal to the Tv at 18Ghz or if the maximum allowed is 9Ghz, I ask this because with the 18Ghz I can not see the pictures while the 9 ghz is all correct .
> 
> HDMI Cable or HDMI Input Problem (max 9ghz limit on tv?)....?


which Pro do you have and does it have 18Ghz input and output cards, or just 9Ghz


----------



## mikigio

D_B_0673 said:


> which Pro do you have and does it have 18Ghz input and output cards, or just 9Ghz



Hi. 
yes i have input and output 18ghz in Radiance Pro, but maybe Lg input only 9 Ghz ?


----------



## sillysally

mikigio said:


> Good morning, I just received my Radiance Pro.
> 
> I would like to match it with a tv Oled Lg E6, I wanted to ask if it is possible to send the signal to the Tv at 18Ghz or if the maximum allowed is 9Ghz, I ask this because with the 18Ghz I can not see the pictures while the 9 ghz is all correct .
> 
> HDMI Cable or HDMI Input Problem (max 9ghz limit on tv?)....?


You should have NP using 18GHz inputs or outputs. I have a LG EF9500 and a C7, NP sending a SDR or HDR signal.

ss


----------



## mikigio

sillysally said:


> You should have NP using 18GHz inputs or outputs. I have a LG EF9500 and a C7, NP sending a SDR or HDR signal.
> 
> ss



What is NP?


----------



## D_B_0673

mikigio said:


> What is NP?


probably "no problem"


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 100317*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 100317*
Added programmable crossover point for selecting HDR mapping settings (was previously fixed at 2000 nits). 
Crossover point setting is found in menu under *Input: Options: HDR Setup: Crossover Pt* . 
Improved HDR intensity mapping for HDR in to HDR out. 
Fix for case of 'Auto' setting of *Output: CMS: Colorspace *not getting the correct output (particular case was input change from SDR709 to HDR2020 and incorrectly left output at SDR709). 
Fix for bad source that in some cases could prevent Pro from giving picture or cause occasional video stutters even if the source was not the currently selected input. 
Fix for 42xx reporting 4k60-422 as 420. 
Improved or eliminated some cases of screen flashes on input format changes. 
Small menu improvements. 
Added debug command, "menu 0529", to view last 32 characters received over rs232. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Hi Kris
> 
> 
> Did you ever get a chance to look at this...?


Sorry no, I have been on a submarine for the last couple weeks, which wasn't planned. I will try and look this weekend.


----------



## sillysally

mikigio said:


> What is NP?





D_B_0673 said:


> probably "no problem"


Yes NP stands for no problem.

ss


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Sorry no, I have been on a submarine for the last couple weeks, which wasn't planned. I will try and look this weekend.


I went to a buffet unexpectedly last week, but doesn’t seem like the same thing...

Hopefully this was not against your will....

Anyway, you should be prepared to do a deep-dive on this issue...


----------



## mikigio

sillysally said:


> Yes NP stands for no problem.
> 
> ss


Hi, tank you for answer, 

I guess this, if it passes a 4k 24/30p 18Ghz signal no problem, while if it passes a 4K signal 50/60p 18 Ghz freezes the video and becomes black on Oled.


----------



## Rikard R

*Intensity mapping question*

Hi everybody!
My name is Rikard, and i am from Sweden.

I have plans to buy a 4240 model.
I have a question about this intensity mapping.
I read earlier in this thread that some of you output a HDR in to SDR out and then do this mapping.
But don't you lose the 10-bit then?
In the owners manuel it says something about internal test pattern. What patterns is there?
And last, which calibration tools do you prefer and work best with Lumagen. Calman, chromapure or other?

You have to excuse me for my bad vocabulary

Rikard


----------



## Chris5

Hi mikigio, your problem is almost certainly the hdmi cables you are using. Don't ask me which have been proved to work with 18ghz + pro 'cause I don't know. You also have not said how long the cable run is.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Rikard R said:


> Hi everybody!
> My name is Rikard, and i am from Sweden.
> 
> I have plans to buy a 4240 model.
> I have a question about this intensity mapping.
> I read earlier in this thread that some of you output a HDR in to SDR out and then do this mapping.
> But don't you lose the 10-bit then?
> In the owners manuel it says something about internal test pattern. What patterns is there?
> And last, which calibration tools do you prefer and work best with Lumagen. Calman, chromapure or other?
> 
> You have to excuse me for my bad vocabulary
> 
> Rikard


You can send 10bit HDR in to scaler and output it at 4:2:2 12bit...
patterns. There are a lot of patterns. http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0005_UsingTestPatterns_112013.pdf
Personally i use LightSpace by Lightillusion for LUT calibration with the Pro

Gordon


----------



## mikigio

Chris5 said:


> Hi mikigio, your problem is almost certainly the hdmi cables you are using. Don't ask me which have been proved to work with 18ghz + pro 'cause I don't know. You also have not said how long the cable run is.



Hello and thank you everyone, I solved the problem of 18Ghz, I had an incorrect setting in the HDMI port TV to which was attached the radiance Pro, now all ok.


I add, very good quality the Lut on SDR and the tone mapping of HDR Pro has potential, I prefer it compared to the tone mapping of Tv Oled.


----------



## D_B_0673

Are there brightness/contrast patterns in the Lumagen, that I can use to set brighness.contrast in a new JVC projector.
Any advice or suggestions greatly appreciated
thanks
dan


----------



## dlinsley

D_B_0673 said:


> Are there brightness/contrast patterns in the Lumagen, that I can use to set brighness.contrast in a new JVC projector.


The Pro's manual says to use Contrast1 and Contrast2 from tech tip 5.

I've not used it myself - I should check them out. I just like the flashing bars on the free AVS disc (download the ISO and burn) for SDR, and Ryan Masciola's for HDR.


----------



## D_B_0673

dlinsley said:


> The Pro's manual says to use Contrast1 and Contrast2 from tech tip 5.
> 
> I've not used it myself - I should check them out. I just like the flashing bars on the free AVS disc (download the ISO and burn) for SDR, and Ryan Masciola's for HDR.


Thanks
I was just pointed to the AVS disk, and practiced with it on my current tv and my 10yr old RS1 pj.
Will use it on the new PJ when it arrives
and will look at the tech tip you mentioned
dan


----------



## mikigio

Hi, I have a message when I save a parameter that says and I lose the input and output saved parameters, it returns to default, this happens now after loading the last firmware. This is message. firmware invalidate update.

how should I behave


----------



## Gordon Fraser

You should carry on. It is just an historic warning that lets you know that doing a firmware update may wipe out any saved settings. However, if any firmware were going to do that they would say so in the notes and as it stands i think it extremely unlikely that Llumagen would ever need to alter the architecture of the firmware to the extent they would need to do that now. In the early days of the firmware there was much more potential for that. Just off top of my head i think in the original Radiance range during it's beta stage there was one major change that had this effect and it was only a couple of months in to the beta development. So carry on with no fear.


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> You should carry on. It is just an historic warning that lets you know that doing a firmware update may wipe out any saved settings. However, if any firmware were going to do that they would say so in the notes and as it stands i think it extremely unlikely that Llumagen would ever need to alter the architecture of the firmware to the extent they would need to do that now. In the early days of the firmware there was much more potential for that. Just off top of my head i think in the original Radiance range during it's beta stage there was one major change that had this effect and it was only a couple of months in to the beta development. So carry on with no fear.


OK thank you very much. 
Well.

I had thought of an installation error.


----------



## D_B_0673

Automatic Switching of Output Resolutions question.
According to the tech tip on Lumagen site, this should be possible unless I am not understanding

*Input 1*. OPPO 203, set to Source direct 
If a 4k disk =output 4k
If a 1080p disk, have Lumagen upscale to 4K=output 4k

*Input 2*. Standard BluRay player set to source direct
If a 1080p disk =output 1080 P
If I am reading it correctly I would have to choose custom output.
My display is the JVC640 (when it arrives), native 1080 P
This is only 4k with e shift (ON)
If E shift is not (ON) then it is a 1080p
I would like the option of playing 1080p without E shift, although never having seen a 1080 with eshift, I might find it is better with, but I would still like the option if possible and not complicated.
thanks, 
dan


----------



## SJHT

D_B_0673 said:


> Automatic Switching of Output Resolutions question.
> According to the tech tip on Lumagen site, this should be possible unless I am not understanding
> 
> *Input 1*. OPPO 203, set to Source direct
> If a 4k disk =output 4k
> If a 1080p disk, have Lumagen upscale to 4K=output 4k
> 
> *Input 2*. Standard BluRay player set to source direct
> If a 1080p disk =output 1080 P
> If I am reading it correctly I would have to choose custom output.
> My display is the JVC640 (when it arrives), native 1080 P
> This is only 4k with e shift (ON)
> If E shift is not (ON) then it is a 1080p
> I would like the option of playing 1080p without E shift, although never having seen a 1080 with eshift, I might find it is better with, but I would still like the option if possible and not complicated.
> thanks,
> dan


You can easily do this by setting the output either directly or to a custom (and then defining the custom accordingly). However, with my RS600, I run everything into it at 4K. SJ


----------



## D_B_0673

SJHT said:


> You can easily do this by setting the output either directly or to a custom (and then defining the custom accordingly). However, with my RS600, I run everything into it at 4K. SJ


thanks, that might actually be how I use it also, once I see 1080 upscaled to 4k.
Would just like the option to do both if possible
thanks
dan


----------



## D_B_0673

With my current set up (Lumagen XD and JVC RS1), both which are being upgraded, I have never had any lip sync issues. I have used over the years 2 or 3 bluRay players from expensive to cheap and all worked well
I am reading about some lip sync problems with some of the new players, so my question is
Does the Lumagen Pro somehow sync up video and audio before it leaves the Lumagen?
Is that what gen lock is?
Will using a 20' RuiPro cable to the PJ and a 6' cable to the audio receiver be an issue?
I could use a 10' cable to the reciever if recommended or buy a longer one.
I have suffered with occasional lip sync stuff on TV and it drives me crazy.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lip sync*



D_B_0673 said:


> With my current set up (Lumagen XD and JVC RS1), both which are being upgraded, I have never had any lip sync issues. I have used over the years 2 or 3 bluRay players from expensive to cheap and all worked well
> I am reading about some lip sync problems with some of the new players, so my question is
> Does the Lumagen Pro somehow sync up video and audio before it leaves the Lumagen?
> Is that what gen lock is?
> Will using a 20' RuiPro cable to the PJ and a 6' cable to the audio receiver be an issue?
> I could use a 10' cable to the reciever if recommended or buy a longer one.
> I have suffered with occasional lip sync stuff on TV and it drives me crazy.
> dan


The issue may be UHD content and UHD players.
Some of the Lumagen Radiance Pro firmware updates have been aimed at helping adjust lip sync.
I haven't tried that hard yet, but do not have mine dialed in and it seems to vary between BRs and UHD content.

Mike


----------



## D_B_0673

Mike_WI said:


> The issue may be UHD content and UHD players.
> Some of the Lumagen Radiance Pro firmware updates have been aimed at helping adjust lip sync.
> I haven't tried that hard yet, but do not have mine dialed in and it seems to vary between BRs and UHD content.
> 
> Mike


thanks, are you saying you have lip sync on some of your UHD disks or is it streaming?
What player do you have?


----------



## Mike_WI

D_B_0673 said:


> thanks, are you saying you have lip sync on some of your UHD disks or is it streaming?
> What player do you have?


I'm not sure about streaming.
I usually play from disc.
4K is from Oppo UDP-203.

Mike


----------



## sillysally

Mike_WI said:


> The issue may be UHD content and UHD players.
> Some of the Lumagen Radiance Pro firmware updates have been aimed at helping adjust lip sync.
> I haven't tried that hard yet, but do not have mine dialed in and it seems to vary between BRs and UHD content.
> 
> Mike


Hello Mike.

Although I didn't view many HDR blu ray's using the Pro, I never saw any lip sync issues.
I use the Video out HDMI port of the Oppo 203 connected to the Pro, and the audio out HDMI of the 203 connected my DA soundbar.
Also when using my Ruku P+ connected directly to the Pro and using the 18GHz HDMI output for video and the other 18GHz output for audio, I didn't hear any lip sync issues. 
However I have a C7 OLED.

ss


----------



## D_B_0673

sillysally said:


> Hello Mike.
> 
> Although I didn't view many HDR blu ray's using the Pro, I never saw any lip sync issues.
> I use the Video out HDMI port of the Oppo 203 connected to the Pro, and the audio out HDMI of the 203 connected my DA soundbar.
> Also when using my Ruku P+ connected directly to the Pro and using the 18GHz HDMI output for video and the other 18GHz output for audio, I didn't hear any lip sync issues.
> However I have a C7 OLED.
> 
> ss


I would have thought that you would send video and audio to the Pro via 1 cable and then out from the Pro to TV and soundbar


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

mikigio said:


> What is NP?




NP no problem  which pro series youvengot. usually 18ghz cards hdmi output 4 if 4444 series sonit should be the most higher output. try all outputs from radiance it should work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Is there still going to be a gaming mode at some point? Is the current best way to output the signal in the exact format as inputted. E.g. 4K60/HDR in, then have a memory for 4K/60 HDR out? Don’t use IM, etc. thanks. SJ


----------



## D_B_0673

SJHT said:


> Is there still going to be a gaming mode at some point? Is the current best way to output the signal in the exact format as inputted. E.g. 4K60/HDR in, then have a memory for 4K/60 HDR out? Don’t use IM, etc. thanks. SJ


What is IM


----------



## SJHT

D_B_0673 said:


> What is IM


Intensity Mapping.....


----------



## D_B_0673

SJHT said:


> Intensity Mapping.....


thanks


----------



## Theaterfreak360

Does any have the Control4 C4i file they can share for the Lumagen Radiance Pro? My Control4 integrator is having a hard time finding the actual C4i file. On the Lumagen website there's a file that claims to be C4i, but it's a text file and can't be used.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

Tarrus


----------



## JFR0317

Theaterfreak360 said:


> Does any have the Control4 C4i file they can share for the Lumagen Radiance Pro? My Control4 integrator is having a hard time finding the actual C4i file. On the Lumagen website there's a file that claims to be C4i, but it's a text file and can't be used.
> 
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Tarrus


PM sent


----------



## sillysally

D_B_0673 said:


> I would have thought that you would send video and audio to the Pro via 1 cable and then out from the Pro to TV and soundbar


If the soundbar K950 only had one HDMI port in I would do that. 
I let the Oppo split the audio/video signal before it is sent out.
When using DV/DA Blu Ray, having the Oppo already connected to the DA soundbar, I would only have to change the video out HDMI cable from the Oppo to the display.

ss


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 101517*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 101517*
Fix for problem with NLS and certain screen sizes. 
Fix for output mask with 4096 wide output modes. 
Fix of a couple incorrect reports of HDR parameters used. 
Some other minor improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## D_B_0673

sillysally said:


> If the soundbar K950 only had one HDMI port in I would do that.
> I let the Oppo split the audio/video signal before it is sent out.
> When using DV/DA Blu Ray, having the Oppo already connected to the DA soundbar, I would only have to change the video out HDMI cable from the Oppo to the display.
> 
> ss


You would have essentially the same thing from the Lumagen, One cable to the display and one to the sound bar, unless you are using the one from the Lumagen to go to an AVR.
still confused, but thanks


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 101817*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 101817*
Fixed problem of sometimes losing video from Roku 4k UltraHD source when Roku switched from main menu to Netflix. 
Bugfix for rs232 test pattern mode using with HDR in & out. 
Fix for LED left on at power-up when programmed to not stay on. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*Vertex MaxCLL via RS232*

Interesting:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-905.html#post55055810



> Wow... just got this from HDFury through email and had no idea this was in the works for our JVC's! (guess I really have been out of it these days!) and in case there's others not in the know (sans Manni, Claw & Steve)...
> 
> 
> In the making: RS232 macro control for JVC and others PJ.
> Since its announcement and as always from our team, we kept adding features to Vertex, we are now proud to mention that Vertex will offer an unique Dolby Vision management method and we are actively working with reputable scene members to provide even more control and integration with top brand displays out there.
> 
> Through the use of RS232 Macro, it becomes possible to auto set and configure your PJ to the right mode based on content format or metadata value.
> If incoming signal is SDR or if incoming HDR Max brightness or MaxCLL is above, equals or below a defined value, Vertex will forward the command of your choice to your display.
> Currently underwork for JVC PJ, it might becomes available for more PJ soon.


----------



## collinp

Mike_WI said:


> Interesting:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-905.html#post55055810


Oooh, thanks for the heads up.


----------



## mikigio

Hi, I have a question about what seems to be a problem in my radiance pro 4242.
With Blu Ray 1080-24P incoming upscale 4k with the Radiance signal worsens slightly compared to going out in 1080P, I also noticed that it slightly closes the output from the near black ever as it goes out in 4K, This does not happen if I exit 1080 from Radiance vs TV.


This is done either by using output 18 GHZ 4.2.2 or 9 GHZ 4.2.2


Are there any settings that can improve this?


----------



## D_B_0673

I have a new Radiance Pro and a new JVC 640 projector.
If I play a 4k disk and send it thru the Radiance, do I have to choose a HDR profile in the Projector, or will the lumagen do that and the projector will accept the Lumagen HDR color space etc.
The projector has a HDR setting with Rec 2020.
Everything is brand new and I have only played 1080 p disks upscaled by the Lumagen
thanks in advance


----------



## jaychatbonneau

Is anyone here using one of the 4K Sony projectors? How much of an improvement have you seen by offloading the HDR processing to the Lumagen and outputting wide color gamut "SDR" 4K? I have been right on the edge of buying a Radiance Pro for months. Please help me decide. Thanks!


----------



## Mark_H

Anybody using an Oppo 203/205 with the Pro? No matter what settings I try on either device, the Pro only reports HDR/709 on its inputs... Anybody successfully getting HDR/2020 from the Oppo? If so, would appreciate knowing the settings you use... Ta!


----------



## alex_t

Mark_H said:


> Anybody using an Oppo 203/205 with the Pro? No matter what settings I try on either device, the Pro only reports HDR/709 on its inputs... Anybody successfully getting HDR/2020 from the Oppo? If so, would appreciate knowing the settings you use... Ta!


Hello,

To get HDR/2020 from Oppo 203, I had to force its HDR mode (AUTO did not work) and I had to force Radiance EDID at YES for HDR instead of AUTO.


----------



## Mark_H

Thanks, Alex. Pretty certain that's where I'm at right now, but will double check.

Another really annoying issue - the Oppo drops HDR back to SDR on some chapter changes/menu loops. I wonder if this is related to, or seperate from, getting stable HDR/2020...

Back to experimenting!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

There must be some firmware change onsomething as i've never had to do anything other than set HDR and REC2020 in GLOBAL to YES to make it work. In fact i am not sure i've even had to do that but it's something i just always do when i set up Pros in systems.


----------



## Mark_H

Cannot get it to work, no matter what options I try. And unfortunately the lastest Oppo firmware is fixed, so you cannot roll back from it. Grrrr.

Unusable for now.


----------



## kaotikr1

jaychatbonneau said:


> Is anyone here using one of the 4K Sony projectors? How much of an improvement have you seen by offloading the HDR processing to the Lumagen and outputting wide color gamut "SDR" 4K? I have been right on the edge of buying a Radiance Pro for months. Please help me decide. Thanks!


I set one up for a customer with a 385ES. He is very pleased with the results. The HDR processing is excellent with the lumagen and would highly recommend it.


----------



## dinamigym

Mark_H said:


> Cannot get it to work, no matter what options I try. And unfortunately the lastest Oppo firmware is fixed, so you cannot roll back from it. Grrrr.
> 
> 
> 
> Unusable for now.




I’m running the latest OPPO firmware and all settings are auto. My Pro reports HDR2020 without using any special settings other the HDR and 2020 set to yes in the global Lumagen menu.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

Thanks, guys. Bit concerned that I'm the only one with issue! 

Just checking; my Oppo firmware is 20XEU-51-0922, ie the latest.

More playing today then...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mark_H said:


> Thanks, guys. Bit concerned that I'm the only one with issue!
> 
> Just checking; my Oppo firmware is 20XEU-51-0922, ie the latest.
> 
> More playing today then...



I had a client with a 203, 4240 and Sony VW550 and his system developed problems with the player suddenly dropping to SDR output from HDR during actual content after an Oppo firmware update. I think when i went back to fix it I did a factory reset on the Oppo and loaded in latest Lumagen firmware with a bootloader bypass update and after that it just started working again. That was probably 2-3 months ago.
Save​


----------



## Surfdrifter

Mark_H said:


> Thanks, guys. Bit concerned that I'm the only one with issue!
> 
> Just checking; my Oppo firmware is 20XEU-51-0922, ie the latest.
> 
> More playing today then...


A few questions. Do you play a disc or a mkv with your Oppo? I initially had the same issue with my Oppo on the first day with my Pro.

The first thing to do is to play HDR content from your Oppo. If you see the HDR logo showing on the display of the Oppo, then you're OK.
Then, hold Info while playing on your Oppo remote, to show the media file information. Scroll to see the input and the output. I would assume that input would be HDR2020, since you see the logo. Then check the output. If it is SDR, then you are outputting SDR, for some reason, rather than HDR.

At first, check the HDCP settings on your Lumagen Pro to be 2.2 and NOT 1.x. If it is 1.x, change it to 2.2 and probably you'll be OK.
If you are at 2.2 on your Pro, then go to Video Settings and try to fiddle with Source Direct and Force HDR, to make Oppo outputting HDR.

Hope it helps.


----------



## Mark_H

Thanks again. So this morning I tried a few more things: factory reset OPPO; rolled back various Pro firmwares; use different cables; different Pro inputs; inserted an Integral between the Oppo and the Pro, but still no joy.

The image confirms that the Oppo *thinks* it is outputting HDR/2020, but you see from the Pro's overlay that it doesn't think it is receiving such.

The latest Oppo firmware is a new base level - they say you cannot roll back from here (true???), so for now I'm stuck. As Gordon has seen similar before, I have to assume the player is at fault. I've sent details to Oppo, but no idea how long they will take to fix...

But IF others are using the current (Europe) Oppo firmware without issues I'm not sure what to think... maybe a hardware problem :/


----------



## dinamigym

Mark_H said:


> Thanks again. So this morning I tried a few more things: factory reset OPPO; rolled back various Pro firmwares; use different cables; different Pro inputs; inserted an Integral between the Oppo and the Pro, but still no joy.
> 
> 
> 
> The image confirms that the Oppo *thinks* it is outputting HDR/2020, but you see from the Pro's overlay that it doesn't think it is receiving such.
> 
> 
> 
> The latest Oppo firmware is a new base level - they say you cannot roll back from here (true???), so for now I'm stuck. As Gordon has seen similar before, I have to assume the player is at fault. I've sent details to Oppo, but no idea how long they will take to fix...
> 
> 
> 
> But IF others are using the current (Europe) Oppo firmware without issues I'm not sure what to think... maybe a hardware problem :/




Probably a dumb question but...are you converting HDR to SDR in the IM settings on the Lumagen?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

Yes, HDR/2020 -> SDR/2020.

But, as you can see, the Pro isn't getting the HDR/2020


----------



## dinamigym

Mark_H said:


> Yes, HDR/2020 -> SDR/2020.
> 
> 
> 
> But, as you can see, the Pro isn't getting the HDR/2020




Sorry yes...that is definitely not what my Lumagen reports for the incoming source from the oppo playing HDR content 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Another really annoying issue - the Oppo drops HDR back to SDR on some chapter changes/menu loops. I wonder if this is related to, or separate from, getting stable HDR/2020...


We have (I think) three other Oppo 20X setups that did drop out of HDR mode sometimes driving a 9 GHz input card. We were never able to replicate this with our Oppo203, but did determine that the Pro's "9 GHz Input Chip" reported that the source was no longer sending HDR. Since we could not replicate this it is not clear if the issue is in the Oppo 20X output or if it is a compatibility issue between the Oppo 20X and the Radiance Pro 9 GHz input chip. We do not have any reports of this type of "HDR dropout" with other HDR sources.

Switching the input on the Pro to an 18 GHz input card fixed the dropout in the cases I know about. So try an 18 GHz input if you are on a 9 GHz input card. If you already are on a 18 GHz input on the Pro let us know because it would be a first and update our current thinking on this issue.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> We have (I think) three other Oppo 20X setups that did drop out of HDR mode sometimes driving a 9 GHz input card. We were never able to replicate this with our Oppo203, but did determine that the Pro's "9 GHz Input Chip" reported that the source was no longer sending HDR. Since we could not replicate this it is not clear if the issue is in the Oppo 20X output or if it is a compatibility issue between the Oppo 20X and the Radiance Pro 9 GHz input chip. We do not have any reports of this type of "HDR dropout" with other HDR sources.
> 
> Switching the input on the Pro to an 18 GHz input card fixed the dropout in the cases I know about. So try an 18 GHz input if you are on a 9 GHz input card. If you already are on a 18 GHz input on the Pro let us know because it would be a first and update our current thinking on this issue.


My Pro is 9Ghz... 

I can try inserting an HDFury Integral between the Oppo and the Pro to see if that helps with the SDR dropout, as a "quick fix". My Pro currently only has two inputs, both used, and if I recall correctly, the 18Ghz card would soak up both those inputs? IF I added an 18Ghz card, could I move the 9Ghz to a new input slot?

Perhaps the easier solution is to just stick the Panny UB900 back in and be done, however, the Oppo gives me some things that I need (subtitle movement and source direct amongst others). Once the Pro adds video EDID control I may be able to get a proxy of source direct working, but I'd still be missing subtitle placement control.

Do you think the 18Ghz card also solves the HDR/709 problem? To all the others who [are] reporting no issues with the Oppo, are you using 18Ghz???


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> My Pro is 9Ghz...
> 
> I can try inserting an HDFury Integral between the Oppo and the Pro to see if that helps with the SDR dropout, as a "quick fix". My Pro currently only has two inputs, both used, and if I recall correctly, the 18Ghz card would soak up both those inputs? IF I added an 18Ghz card, could I move the 9Ghz to a new input slot?
> 
> Perhaps the easier solution is to just stick the Panny UB900 back in and be done, however, the Oppo gives me some things that I need (subtitle movement and source direct amongst others). Once the Pro adds video EDID control I may be able to get a proxy of source direct working, but I'd still be missing subtitle placement control.
> 
> Do you think the 18Ghz card also solves the HDR/709 problem? To all the others who a reporting no issues with the Oppo, are you using 18Ghz???


Mark, the 18Ghz input cards have two 18Ghz inputs the same as the 9Ghz card has two 9Ghz inputs, so you don't lose any inputs - and yes you can use your old 9Ghz card for additional inputs. Gordon will be able sort you out with one I'm sure.


----------



## Mark_H

OK, so the HDFury Integral resolves the drop to SDR, but not the HDR/709. So it does seem to be the 9GHz card is involved either partially, of fully. Presumably Lumagen would like to fix this?  If Lumagen want to test, try The Mummy UHD disc - just leave the disc menu on repeat and you will quickly see the drop out of HDR to SDR.

But again, for those seeing no issues with the Oppo UHD players can I ask which input card you are using; 9GHz or 18GHz? It might be easiest, for me, to simply upgrade but only if it's guaranteed to work...


----------



## dinamigym

Mark_H said:


> OK, so the HDFury Integral resolves the drop to SDR, but not the HDR/709. So it does seem to be the 9GHz card is involved either partially, of fully. Presumably Lumagen would like to fix this?  If Lumagen want to test, try The Mummy UHD disc - just leave the disc menu on repeat and you will quickly see the drop out of HDR to SDR.
> 
> 
> 
> But again, for those seeing no issues with the Oppo UHD players can I ask which input card you are using; 9GHz or 18GHz? It might be easiest, for me, to simply upgrade but only if it's guaranteed to work...




I️ have all 18 GHz cards in my Lumagen 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mskreis

Mark_H said:


> OK, so the HDFury Integral resolves the drop to SDR, but not the HDR/709. So it does seem to be the 9GHz card is involved either partially, of fully. Presumably Lumagen would like to fix this?  If Lumagen want to test, try The Mummy UHD disc - just leave the disc menu on repeat and you will quickly see the drop out of HDR to SDR.
> 
> 
> 
> But again, for those seeing no issues with the Oppo UHD players can I ask which input card you are using; 9GHz or 18GHz? It might be easiest, for me, to simply upgrade but only if it's guaranteed to work...




18GHz inputs in mine and no issues with the Oppo. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

Same here, 18GHz and no issue.


----------



## SJHT

Anyone using the Pro with an Xbox One x? I’m getting some brief blackouts and not sure whether it is the Pro or the Xbox one x. Thanks. SJ


----------



## kaotikr1

SJHT said:


> Anyone using the Pro with an Xbox One x? I’m getting some brief blackouts and not sure whether it is the Pro or the Xbox one x. Thanks. SJ


None here. 

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


----------



## alex_t

SJHT said:


> Anyone using the Pro with an Xbox One x? I’m getting some brief blackouts and not sure whether it is the Pro or the Xbox one x. Thanks. SJ


Hello

I don't have the xbox but since a few firmwares I have gotten brief blackouts with my HTPC and my oppo bd93.


----------



## SJHT

Someone suggested it might be my cable. I used the same cable for the S model and it worked fine. Also use the same cable for the PS4 Pro and that works fine as well. At least in this case, I can move the new Xbox close to the Pro and use a short cable to test. SJ


----------



## SJHT

Well, looks like it is the cable. Switched to the one that came with the system and it seems to be working fine. Got feedback that the new X is driving 4K60 to full 18gpbs and that it is higher than the XBOX One S or PS4 Pro. Even more cables to purchase or I just may leave the system in our equipment room. I used to have to have it in the theater for feeding disks, but haven’t purchased a disk in well over a year for any of our systems. Think I will move both the Xbox One X and PS4 Pro into our equipment room as the wireless controllers seem to work fine. SJ


----------



## LJG

Jim:

What is the road map for upcoming HDR10 plus and Lumagen Intensity mapping? Thanks!


----------



## D_B_0673

Any one else using a late model JVC (I have the 640) and a Lumagen Pro?
I could really use some advice concerning HDR setup.
Also, who do you recommend for calibrating?
I am also looking very hard at Chroma Pure software that has Auto cal for Lumagen
I am not up to speed on this at all
thanks
dan


----------



## mskreis

D_B_0673 said:


> Any one else using a late model JVC (I have the 640) and a Lumagen Pro?
> I could really use some advice concerning HDR setup.
> Also, who do you recommend for calibrating?
> I am also looking very hard at Chroma Pure software that has Auto cal for Lumagen
> I am not up to speed on this at all
> thanks
> dan


I've got the same setup and have been using Chromapure for several years. Currently Chromapure cannot auto-calibrate HDR but it sounds like an update in the near future will add that functionality. 

I've had my 640 up and running the past 5 days. So far I've performed an auto-cal for Rec 709, which takes care of all of my non-HDR sources. As usual, the results are fantastic. Current recommendations are to calibrate after you have at least 100 hrs on the bulb so I'll repeat the calibration again soon. For HDR, I'm using the default settings on the JVC and must say they're pretty good. I performed a simple gray scale calibration and the results are very good including gamma. I checked color for Rec 2020 and at 50% saturation/intensity (this is recommended by many as opposed to 75 or 100%) the colors are also quite accurate. 

On the Lumagen I'm using HDR Intensity Mapping and currently experimenting with different settings. There are many parameters that can be modified so it's a little daunting but I believe the resulting image is better than without the mapping enabled. 

Hope this helps. When I first started using Chromapure I was able to achieve very good results using auto-cal for Rec 709. Now with HDR I'm learning more about manual calibration and can tell I have a lot still to learn.


Mark


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> My Pro is 9Ghz...
> 
> I can try inserting an HDFury Integral between the Oppo and the Pro to see if that helps with the SDR dropout, as a "quick fix". My Pro currently only has two inputs, both used, and if I recall correctly, the 18Ghz card would soak up both those inputs? IF I added an 18Ghz card, could I move the 9Ghz to a new input slot?
> 
> Perhaps the easier solution is to just stick the Panny UB900 back in and be done, however, the Oppo gives me some things that I need (subtitle movement and source direct amongst others). Once the Pro adds video EDID control I may be able to get a proxy of source direct working, but I'd still be missing subtitle placement control.
> 
> Do you think the 18Ghz card also solves the HDR/709 problem? To all the others who [are] reporting no issues with the Oppo, are you using 18Ghz???


You can buy an 18 GHz input card and put it in the empty slot (or put it where the 9 GHz input is and move the 9 GHz input card to input 3 and 4). It is a dual 18GHz input card. So you would end up with 4 inputs.

If you try the Integral between the Oppo and the Pro I would be interested knowing if it helps. [EDIT] I saw your post on this and several other posts after I posted. I will leave my post as originally posted for completeness though.

I am not sure about the "HDR/709" problem with the Oppo. I do not know of any other reports of this issue. You should use "Yes" in the Global->Video->SrcFormat menu for both HDR and Rec2020 as we have seen some players that never go into HDR+2020 mode if they do not see these reported from the downstream device at power on (not paying attention to Hotplug at least for HDR/2020). No idea if this is true of the Oppo. However for any player that has this issue it would mean only the Pro needs to be on before the player.

I cannot rule out a bug in the 9 GHz input chip we use for compatibility with the Oppo. It is autonomous and so all we know is it is not reporting 2020 from the source for the HDR/709 issue, or not reporting HDR when dropping out of HDR. It is possible it just missed the Info Frame flag. We cannot even try to figure out whether it is in the Pro input chip or the Oppo output since we do not have the issue in the lab. Since the 18 GHz input upgrade seems to work to eliminate the couple cases of "dropping out of HDR" it would be worth knowing if it helps the HDR/709 issue.


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> Jim:
> 
> What is the road map for upcoming HDR10 plus and Lumagen Intensity mapping? Thanks!


We plan to support HDR10+ but have not actually done any work on this yet. I designed HDR Intensity Mapping for Dynamic Meta Data from the beginning. This is actually being used already since the transfer function dynamically changes based on MaxCLL and Mastering Monitor Max in the HDR Info Frame.

There are a lot of details for HDR10+ but at least the HDR Intensity Mapping core design does not need a rethink.

We also plan to support HLG.


----------



## SJHT

I have a BDP-205 and use HDR Auto, output on source direct, color space and depth both on Auto. Custom resolution on UHD 24hz to keep things from resyncing. I have the 18ghz cards and have never had an issue. Oppo outputs 444-HDR2020 and with IM, Pro outputs 422-SDR2020. SJ


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> OK, so the HDFury Integral resolves the drop to SDR, but not the HDR/709. So it does seem to be the 9GHz card is involved either partially, of fully. Presumably Lumagen would like to fix this?  If Lumagen want to test, try The Mummy UHD disc - just leave the disc menu on repeat and you will quickly see the drop out of HDR to SDR.
> 
> But again, for those seeing no issues with the Oppo UHD players can I ask which input card you are using; 9GHz or 18GHz? It might be easiest, for me, to simply upgrade but only if it's guaranteed to work...


HDMI is often inscrutable. The Integral resolving the issue does not mean the issue is in the Pro for sure. It could be the Oppo is doing something wrong but the Integral is immune and fixes the error. In the past we have seen exactly this when investigating HDMI issues. That is the source (or destination) is not following the HDMI spec and we had to work around their issue in our code to allow for the out-of-spec behavior to work.

Of course it could be in the Pro's 9 GHz input chip. Unfortunately we have no control over the 9 GHz input chip's microprocessor. Since we can't even replicate the issue to send to the chip vendor, if it is in the Pro's 9 GHz input chip it might not be something that gets resolved. A very mixed bag having a "smart" HDMI input chip. Less for us to do and less we can do.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> We plan to support HDR10+ but have not actually done any work on this yet. I designed HDR Intensity Mapping for Dynamic Meta Data from the beginning. This is actually being used already since the transfer function dynamically changes based on MaxCLL and Mastering Monitor Max in the HDR Info Frame.
> 
> There are a lot of details for HDR10+ but at least the HDR Intensity Mapping core design does not need a rethink.
> 
> We also plan to support HLG.


Is PIP going to bubble up to the list at some point? Miss playing Xbox games and watching football. Lol


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Is PIP going to bubble up to the list at some point? Miss playing Xbox games and watching football. Lol


We are definitely behind on features. HDR improvements and HDMI issues have yet to relent and allow us time to work on other features. Although we have been doing pipeline improvements behind the scenes as well.

Next on the feature list is some improvements to deinterlacing, continued pipeline improvements (working on all calculations being 12-bits or more), video enhancements, and 444X PiP/PoP.

So it is on the list but not near the top yet. Sorry. Wish I could say it will be soon but it is still a ways out.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> HDMI is often inscrutable. The Integral resolving the issue does not mean the issue is in the Pro for sure. It could be the Oppo is doing something wrong but the Integral is immune and fixes the error. In the past we have seen exactly this when investigating HDMI issues. That is the source (or destination) is not following the HDMI spec and we had to work around their issue in our code to allow for the out-of-spec behavior to work.
> 
> Of course it could be in the Pro's 9 GHz input chip. Unfortunately we have no control over the 9 GHz input chip's microprocessor. Since we can't even replicate the issue to send to the chip vendor, if it is in the Pro's 9 GHz input chip it might not be something that gets resolved. A very mixed bag having a "smart" HDMI input chip. Less for us to do and less we can do.


Thanks for the replies, Jim. Have put a request into Gordon for an 18GHz card.


----------



## D_B_0673

mskreis said:


> I've got the same setup and have been using Chromapure for several years. Currently Chromapure cannot auto-calibrate HDR but it sounds like an update in the near future will add that functionality.
> 
> I've had my 640 up and running the past 5 days. So far I've performed an auto-cal for Rec 709, which takes care of all of my non-HDR sources. As usual, the results are fantastic. Current recommendations are to calibrate after you have at least 100 hrs on the bulb so I'll repeat the calibration again soon. For HDR, I'm using the default settings on the JVC and must say they're pretty good. I performed a simple gray scale calibration and the results are very good including gamma. I checked color for Rec 2020 and at 50% saturation/intensity (this is recommended by many as opposed to 75 or 100%) the colors are also quite accurate.
> 
> On the Lumagen I'm using HDR Intensity Mapping and currently experimenting with different settings. There are many parameters that can be modified so it's a little daunting but I believe the resulting image is better than without the mapping enabled.
> 
> Hope this helps. When I first started using Chromapure I was able to achieve very good results using auto-cal for Rec 709. Now with HDR I'm learning more about manual calibration and can tell I have a lot still to learn.
> 
> 
> Mark


Thanks, 
When you say you are using the default settings for HDR, are you still running 4k disks thru the Lumagen?
I have an OPPO 203 and have it set to source direct, and play both BluRay(1080, I have the Lumagen upscale 1080) or 4k disks. They go to the Lumagen via input 1 (18ghz). Do you use different Memories for a 4k or 1080 disk?, if not how do you change from your Chroma Pure calibration for Rec709 to Default for HDR?
And by Default in JVC are you choosing the HDR profile or BT2020 or some such?

PM sent
dan


----------



## SJHT

The Pro can change CMSs automatically when receiving a HDR2020 signal vs SDR709 for the same input. The default is CMS0 for SDR709 and CMS1 for HDR2020. If you look at the output setup you will see them..... SJ


----------



## mskreis

D_B_0673 said:


> Thanks,
> When you say you are using the default settings for HDR, are you still running 4k disks thru the Lumagen?
> I have an OPPO 203 and have it set to source direct, and play both BluRay(1080, I have the Lumagen upscale 1080) or 4k disks. They go to the Lumagen via input 1 (18ghz). Do you use different Memories for a 4k or 1080 disk?, if not how do you change from your Chroma Pure calibration for Rec709 to Default for HDR?
> And by Default in JVC are you choosing the HDR profile or BT2020 or some such?
> 
> PM sent
> dan




As per the post from SJ, it is done automatically. I also have the Oppo and several other devices. My Lumagen is the 4240 and I’m only using 1 of the 2 inputs. All of my sources are routed through my AVR then to the Lumagen. For 1080 discs I also let the Pro upscale to 4K. 

In the Lumagen, you can specify the desired output based on the input received without using different inputs or memories. 

Yes, I’m using the HDR profile which uses the HDR mode and is switched automatically by the JVC. It will automatically change back to the appropriate profile when the input changes. So, when I’m done watching a 4K movie on the Oppo and switch to Directv, which is 1080p, the projector reverts to the appropriate profile. 

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Surfdrifter

Mark_H said:


> Thanks again. So this morning I tried a few more things: factory reset OPPO; rolled back various Pro firmwares; use different cables; different Pro inputs; inserted an Integral between the Oppo and the Pro, but still no joy.
> 
> 
> 
> The image confirms that the Oppo *thinks* it is outputting HDR/2020, but you see from the Pro's overlay that it doesn't think it is receiving such.
> 
> 
> 
> The latest Oppo firmware is a new base level - they say you cannot roll back from here (true???), so for now I'm stuck. As Gordon has seen similar before, I have to assume the player is at fault. I've sent details to Oppo, but no idea how long they will take to fix...
> 
> 
> 
> But IF others are using the current (Europe) Oppo firmware without issues I'm not sure what to think... maybe a hardware problem :/




I’m sorry but I CAN see that in the Lumagen overlay it shows HDR2020!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

It is now resolved. User error. *blush* For some unfathomable reason I had changed the Input: In Configs: 4K colourspace to Rec 709.

Thanks to Lumagen for spotting my error! Back to the UHD film festival


----------



## D_B_0673

mskreis said:


> As per the post from SJ, it is done automatically. I also have the Oppo and several other devices. My Lumagen is the 4240 and I’m only using 1 of the 2 inputs. All of my sources are routed through my AVR then to the Lumagen. For 1080 discs I also let the Pro upscale to 4K.
> 
> In the Lumagen, you can specify the desired output based on the input received without using different inputs or memories.
> 
> Yes, I’m using the HDR profile which uses the HDR mode and is switched automatically by the JVC. It will automatically change back to the appropriate profile when the input changes. So, when I’m done watching a 4K movie on the Oppo and switch to Directv, which is 1080p, the projector reverts to the appropriate profile.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don;t think my JVC is automatically switching. I set up a User 1 for 1080 and it seems if I put a 4k disk in the OPPO that I am still on that user. Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong. 
thanks
dan


----------



## D_B_0673

SJHT said:


> The Pro can change CMSs automatically when receiving a HDR2020 signal vs SDR709 for the same input. The default is CMS0 for SDR709 and CMS1 for HDR2020. If you look at the output setup you will see them..... SJ


thanks
I will look at the info screen. But if I want to calibrate, how do I select CMS0 and then calibrate for SDR 709. Then I would need to select CMS1 and do a Calibration for HDR 2020.
I have not gotten into the calibration menu, perhaps it will be clear, but I just don't see get it yet


----------



## turls

Just checking my logic here, if you are using a gaming system and want low latency, you want Game Mode on the Radiance Pro, and this rules out any attempt to bother with HDR intensity mapping to try to play HDR games on a SDR display, right?


----------



## SJHT

Is Game Mode working yet? My assumption is that you want to minimize any type of processing which would add lag.. Seems like whatever you input you would directly want to output (e.g. 4K60 HDR in and therefore 4K60 HDR Out, 1080P60 in, 1080P60 out)?


----------



## mskreis

SJHT said:


> Is Game Mode working yet? My assumption is that you want to minimize any type of processing which would add lag.. Seems like whatever you input you would directly want to output (e.g. 4K60 HDR in and therefore 4K60 HDR Out, 1080P60 in, 1080P60 out)?




I’ve looked but can’t find game mode on my Pro. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## turls

SJHT said:


> Is Game Mode working yet? My assumption is that you want to minimize any type of processing which would add lag.. Seems like whatever you input you would directly want to output (e.g. 4K60 HDR in and therefore 4K60 HDR Out, 1080P60 in, 1080P60 out)?





mskreis said:


> I’ve looked but can’t find game mode on my Pro.


It's listed in the manual but you are correct I don't think it is available yet. Here's what I get on my Xbox One X when I enable "Allow YCC 4:2:2" in the advanced video settings. This is on a Sony 1100ES. I'm thinking this is the best report I can expect. But still need to have Game Mode available eventually hopefully.


----------



## dlinsley

Did you enable Genlock? IIRC that offers the lowest latency currently available, but retains all processing.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Is Game Mode working yet? My assumption is that you want to minimize any type of processing which would add lag.. Seems like whatever you input you would directly want to output (e.g. 4K60 HDR in and therefore 4K60 HDR Out, 1080P60 in, 1080P60 out)?


No "Game Mode,", but the Pro has lower latency than older Radiance units.

The older Radiance units with 60 Hertz in and Genlock on were about 40 mS in normal mode, and about 24 mS in Game mode. The Pro with Genlock on is about 24 mS for this case in normal mode. 

So the Pro has as short a latency without a Game Mode as earlier units with Game Mode on.

Not sure if we can improve this with any type of Game mode unless we limited the input output aspect ratios (perhaps that both must be the same), limited cropping/output-shrink and required Genlock to be on.

NOTE: HDR Intensity Mapping does not add any latency (in human terms). The entire Radiance Pro pipeline is well under 1 mS. Frame buffering is the only significant delay.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

turls said:


> It's listed in the manual but you are correct I don't think it is available yet. Here's what I get on my Xbox One X when I enable "Allow YCC 4:2:2" in the advanced video settings. This is on a Sony 1100ES. I'm thinking this is the best report I can expect. But still need to have Game Mode available eventually hopefully.




Those alerts have nothing to do with the Latency, they relate to your 9Ghz hdmi modules you need to upgrade to 18 in order to play games at [email protected] YCbCr:[email protected]
And in Lumagen you need to pass through HDR signal in order to have HDR10 seen by a console


Video Chain: JVC RS400/x550 > Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 > OPPO UDP-203 > Elite Screen 16:9 135" 1.1 Gain MaxWhite
Audio: Sony BDMV 9200 5.1 System


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 110317*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 110317*
Fix for output color space change not triggering rs232 status report as configured. 
Improvements in reaction time to input mode changes and cleaner output mode changes when necessary. 
Speedup for certain case of input to input switching time. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## turls

dlinsley said:


> Did you enable Genlock? IIRC that offers the lowest latency currently available, but retains all processing.


No, I had lost track of the fact I needed to do that for lowest latency. From jrp's post, maybe there is not even going to be a "game mode' on the Pro, even though it is still documented. I still think it would be nice to have a game mode with certain optimum low latency settings locked in, as jrp described...



SoulOfUniverse said:


> Those alerts have nothing to do with the Latency, they relate to your 9Ghz hdmi modules you need to upgrade to 18 in order to play games at [email protected] YCbCr:[email protected]
> And in Lumagen you need to pass through HDR signal in order to have HDR10 seen by a console


My Sony 1100ES does not support 18Ghz modules, so I'm not upgrading at this point.

Considering the HDR Intensity Mapping isn't going to add relevant latency, I guess at this point I'm confused about how I get HDR10 active for gaming with Radiance Pro. That shouldn't have anything to do with 18Ghz modules, and if I pass the HDR test for video, seems I should for gaming as well. I'm obviously missing something?

I can't get HDR to test green at all if I hook the Xbox One X directly to the 1100ES (obviously), so it could be something else in my chain that is causing a problem. So interested in comparing notes with others with Radiance Pro and Xbox One X. The other items that could be problematic are cabling and my Marantz Pre/Pro (but again not sure why I test ok for video but not gaming for HDR).


----------



## SJHT

I’m using the Pro with an Xbox One X, but my projector can handle 18ghz. I’m using output 4:2:2 and 10 bit. HDR gaming works with IM, but my picture for one title can be overly bright (washed out) and another game will be too dark. Just playing the games using 4K60 SDR709 looks great so I mostly use that by turning off HDR in the Xbox one x. Some games do not correctly set HDR MaxCLL but still use the entire 10000 nit range of HDR. I’m playing around with manually setting MaxCLL and tweaking to see if I can get better results using HDR with IM. SJ


----------



## kaotikr1

SJHT said:


> How are folks calibrating 4K HDR content with the Pro? I have a JVC RS600 and because black is raised/clipped, the normal contrast patterns that I use for SDR, don't even show black levels. Used the full ramp to try and get things close. Seems like they need some better overall contrast and brightness patterns or maybe it's just the JVC.... SJ


Did you ever figure this out? I was just getting into running through some patterns and notice the same thing. I am using Calman is there a different pattern to use?


----------



## kaotikr1

SJHT said:


> I’m using the Pro with an Xbox One X, but my projector can handle 18ghz. I’m using output 4:2:2 and 10 bit. HDR gaming works with IM, but my picture for one title can be overly bright (washed out) and another game will be too dark. Just playing the games using 4K60 SDR709 looks great so I mostly use that by turning off HDR in the Xbox one x. Some games do not correctly set HDR MaxCLL but still use the entire 10000 nit range of HDR. I’m playing around with manually setting MaxCLL and tweaking to see if I can get better results using HDR with IM. SJ


I have found shape 1 or 2 with Tran between 10-13 work for most titles. Granted its hard to know if what we are looking at is how it should look.....


----------



## SJHT

kaotikr1 said:


> Did you ever figure this out? I was just getting into running through some patterns and notice the same thing. I am using Calman is there a different pattern to use?


I used these test patterns which helped...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2463698-r-masciola-s-hdr-10-uhd-test-patterns.html

I’ve gotten pretty good over the years calibrating SDR, but feel like a novice with HDR. Was going to have an expert calibrator come in next month to help me, but now decided to swap my projector out in the same time frame so maybe I will get him early next year....


----------



## kaotikr1

SJHT said:


> I used these test patterns which helped...
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...98-r-masciola-s-hdr-10-uhd-test-patterns.html
> 
> I’ve gotten pretty good over the years calibrating SDR, but feel like a novice with HDR. Was going to have an expert calibrator come in next month to help me, but now decided to swap my projector out in the same time frame so maybe I will get him early next year....


I feel the same way, SDR is easy and quick, this HDR is a bit more difficult. I've seen that disc mentioned, looks like it's time to grab it. Thanks.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

turls said:


> No, I had lost track of the fact I needed to do that for lowest latency. From jrp's post, maybe there is not even going to be a "game mode' on the Pro, even though it is still documented. I still think it would be nice to have a game mode with certain optimum low latency settings locked in, as jrp described...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Sony 1100ES does not support 18Ghz modules, so I'm not upgrading at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the HDR Intensity Mapping isn't going to add relevant latency, I guess at this point I'm confused about how I get HDR10 active for gaming with Radiance Pro. That shouldn't have anything to do with 18Ghz modules, and if I pass the HDR test for video, seems I should for gaming as well. I'm obviously missing something?
> 
> 
> 
> I can't get HDR to test green at all if I hook the Xbox One X directly to the 1100ES (obviously), so it could be something else in my chain that is causing a problem. So interested in comparing notes with others with Radiance Pro and Xbox One X. The other items that could be problematic are cabling and my Marantz Pre/Pro (but again not sure why I test ok for video but not gaming for HDR).




I dont have Sony I have JVC, but I know in Spny TV I had to enable HDMI Enhanced, in order for ps4 pro to see 4k HDR, otherwise it was just 4k at 30 fps. Double check that Sony projector has this menu enabled


Video Chain: JVC RS400/x550 > Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 > OPPO UDP-203 > Elite Screen 16:9 135" 1.1 Gain MaxWhite
Audio: Sony BDMV 9200 5.1 System


----------



## Alyaji

jrp said:


> We plan to support HDR10+ but have not actually done any work on this yet. I designed HDR Intensity Mapping for Dynamic Meta Data from the beginning. This is actually being used already since the transfer function dynamically changes based on MaxCLL and Mastering Monitor Max in the HDR Info Frame.
> 
> There are a lot of details for HDR10+ but at least the HDR Intensity Mapping core design does not need a rethink.
> 
> We also plan to support HLG.


Hi Jim,

Any idea when you plan on releasing HLG support ? I understand FIFA will broadcast some of next summer soccer World Cup in 4K HLG and that’d be nice to have it by then...

Thanks


----------



## turls

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I dont have Sony I have JVC, but I know in Spny TV I had to enable HDMI Enhanced, in order for ps4 pro to see 4k HDR, otherwise it was just 4k at 30 fps. Double check that Sony projector has this menu enabled


I don't have that type of setting in the Sony 1100ES. It does 4k at 60fps, but doesn't support any type of HDR. I don't think it is any setting on the projector that is causing this as it is only looking at the Radiance Pro for the settings.


----------



## SJHT

kaotikr1 said:


> I have found shape 1 or 2 with Tran between 10-13 work for most titles. Granted its hard to know if what we are looking at is how it should look.....


Thanks. What are you using for Maximum Luminance and Paper White? The general HDR options in the game. Assume for projectors we would lower max luminance way below 10000. More like 2000 max or less. Paper white is suppose to be the base luminance of white paper. SJ


----------



## D_B_0673

I know the Pro outputs 4k to SDR 2020. Is that still considered HDR, what are any considerations in calibration?
Is everybody having the Pro make this conversion and what are your thoughts?
thanks


----------



## loggeo

@jrp. Jim I have just purchased a 10 meter ruipro cable. When connecting my 18 ghz output to my hd fury integral I cannot get 4:2:2 60hz. If I use the following chain:
Lumagen pro-->2 meter hdmi cable--> hd fury linker--> 10 meter ruipro hdmi cable--> hd fury integral (Man this is complicated!!!) I get max bandwidth in both my oled 55c6 and my jvc rs500 display devices but sometimes I get a few glitches.
I am also having success when going directly from my Oppo 203 to my displays. 
Do you have any suggestions for long hdmi cables that work well with lumagen pro (full bandwidth)?


----------



## Wookii

turls said:


> My Sony 1100ES does not support 18Ghz modules, so I'm not upgrading at this point.
> 
> Considering the HDR Intensity Mapping isn't going to add relevant latency, I guess at this point I'm confused about how I get HDR10 active for gaming with Radiance Pro. That shouldn't have anything to do with 18Ghz modules, and if I pass the HDR test for video, seems I should for gaming as well. I'm obviously missing something?
> 
> I can't get HDR to test green at all if I hook the Xbox One X directly to the 1100ES (obviously), so it could be something else in my chain that is causing a problem. So interested in comparing notes with others with Radiance Pro and Xbox One X. The other items that could be problematic are cabling and my Marantz Pre/Pro *(but again not sure why I test ok for video but not gaming for HDR).*


The issue you're probably encountering is that although you can pass movies at 2160p/24, you can't pass HDR games which are typically 2160p/60p as you are hitting the bandwidth limits of your system.

For example if you are trying to output 2160p/60 from your XBox One S, this is beyond the bandwidth of the 9Hz input ports on the Pro as others have mentioned, particularly if the Xbox One S is trying to output at 10bit 4:2:2. 2160p/60 4:2:2 10bit which is full bandwidth at just under 18Ghz, by comparison UHD video is only 2160p/24 4:2:2 10bit which is just under 9Ghz. I'm not familiar with the Sony 1100ES, but I believe its HDMI ports are limited to 10.2Gbps, so it won't be able to take a 2160p/60 10bit input either, even it the Pro is removing the HDR metadata to output as SDR.

You need to see if you can force your Xbox One S to output HDR games in 4:2:0 8bit to fall within the capabilities of both your Pro's 9Ghz input ports, and your projector, though that could have some side effects on image quality (possible banding etc), if indeed it works at all.


----------



## turls

Wookii said:


> The issue you're probably encountering is that although you can pass movies at 2160p/24, you can't pass HDR games which are typically 2160p/60p as you are hitting the bandwidth limits of your system.
> 
> For example if you are trying to output 2160p/60 from your XBox One S, this is beyond the bandwidth of the 9Hz input ports on the Pro as others have mentioned, particularly if the Xbox One S is trying to output at 10bit 4:2:2. 2160p/60 4:2:2 10bit which is full bandwidth at just under 18Ghz, by comparison UHD video is only 2160p/24 4:2:2 10bit which is just under 9Ghz. I'm not familiar with the Sony 1100ES, but I believe its HDMI ports are limited to 10.2Gbps, so it won't be able to take a 2160p/60 10bit input either, even it the Pro is removing the HDR metadata to output as SDR.
> 
> You need to see if you can force your Xbox One S to output HDR games in 4:2:0 8bit to fall within the capabilities of both your Pro's 9Ghz input ports, and your projector, though that could have some side effects on image quality (possible banding etc), if indeed it works at all.


That makes sense, possibly, depending on how dumbed down the description of the test in the screenshot is. 1100ES can do 2160p/60, just only at 8bit as you describe. Maybe the Xbox One X won't fallback to 4:2:0 8bit for gaming. I need to research some more.


----------



## kaotikr1

SJHT said:


> Thanks. What are you using for Maximum Luminance and Paper White? The general HDR options in the game. Assume for projectors we would lower max luminance way below 10000. More like 2000 max or less. Paper white is suppose to be the base luminance of white paper. SJ


I never adjusted the paper white, but I did adjust the max luminance down. I think it was in assassins creed where I looked at the sun in the picture and if I went to low it looked all messed up, so I left it around 1000.


----------



## jabz

Hi Is there now a point and shoot guide for calibrating with Lightspace with the new HDR intensity mapping feature?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jabz said:


> Hi Is there now a point and shoot guide for calibrating with Lightspace with the new HDR intensity mapping feature?



Not yet. If you have used LightSpace before then easiest thing to do is profile display with an SDR signal and default CMS. Then use that profile to make a UHD/REC2020 targeted LUT. (MAP SPACE) Upload that, then turn on IM and see how you get on.


----------



## D_B_0673

I just purchased a JVC 640 and a Lumagen Pro. 
Lumagen suggests and I do follow this instruction to output from the Lumagen either Rec709 for BluRay or SDR 2020 for HDR.
Could anyone suggest what settings or choice/profile to pick in the JVC, so the projector does nothing to mess with what the Lumagen sends it.
There are so many choices that I am very confused.
I am going to get the ChromaPure Auto Cal software for calibration, that with some help I think I can use.
thanks


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 110817*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 110817*
Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update). 
Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary. 
Small improvement in output mode transitions. 
Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

*EDIT*
Update on FW...

*Beta 110817*
*Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update). 
Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary. 
Small improvement in output mode transitions. 
Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen not woking after FW Beta 110817 update*

So, after noting the new FW Beta 110817, I should have waited.
However, I loaded FW before family was going to watch a show in the home theater.
Uploaded successfully as per usual routine.
I then waited minutes for the "50 seconds" on first power on.
Then nothing. I can't get menu screen up or any inputs to work.
Any ideas?

I have tried forcing a HDMI handshake by removing and plugging back in the projector HDMI.
I tried to install prior FW, but now computer doesn't see Lumagen.
I have down a few "off" and standby to on cycles.
It is in a rack that I have to crawl behind to physically unplug/plug.


Mike


*EDIT*
Update on FW...

*Beta 110817*
*Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update). 
Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary. 
Small improvement in output mode transitions. 
Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## patrick harkin

Mike_WI said:


> So, after noting the new FW Beta 110817, I should have waited.
> However, I loaded FW before family was going to watch a show in the home theater.
> Uploaded successfully as per usual routine.
> I then waited minutes for the "50 seconds" on first power on.
> Then nothing. I can't get menu screen up or any inputs to work.
> Any ideas?
> 
> I have tried forcing a HDMI handshake by removing and plugging back in the projector HDMI.
> I tried to install prior FW, but now computer doesn't see Lumagen.
> I have down a few "off" and standby to on cycles.
> It is in a rack that I have to crawl behind to physically unplug/plug.
> 
> 
> Mike


Do a boot-load update--- which is plug in Pro and then start updater within 12 seconds. Something must have gone wrong during the normal update but the boot-load update should fix it up.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

patrick harkin said:


> Do a boot-load update--- which is plug in Pro and then start updater within 12 seconds. Something must have gone wrong during the normal update but the boot-load update should fix it up.



For anyone else reading this. You do not need tp physically use remote to turn scaler on. You just remove power then re-attach either physically or at wall switch if you have one, then send update within 12 seconds while unit is booting up to standby


----------



## SJHT

Anyone update this normally with success? I’m not having any issues and might wait until after the holidays.... SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*Back to Beta 110317 FW and working...*



patrick harkin said:


> Do a boot-load update--- which is plug in Pro and then start updater within 12 seconds. Something must have gone wrong during the normal update but the boot-load update should fix it up.





Gordon Fraser said:


> For anyone else reading this. You do not need tp physically use remote to turn scaler on. You just remove power then re-attach either physically or at wall switch if you have one, then send update within 12 seconds while unit is booting up to standby





SJHT said:


> Anyone update this normally with success? I’m not having any issues and might wait until after the holidays.... SJ


Thanks for the advice.
Pic enclosed of area behind bookshelves and HT MA rack in middle surrounded by fiberglass.
It's hard to get to, so I left rack of gear on overnight (projector off) with laptop connected.
I returned to it this morning and was able to upload old Beta 110317 FW.
After that and waiting for reboot, everything worked.
I'm going on vacation so won't tempt the new FW update until I return.
Will watch forum to see if just a fluke or if anyone else has issues.

Mike


----------



## Eventidal

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> Pic enclosed of area behind bookshelves and HT MA rack in middle surrounded by fiberglass.
> It's hard to get to, so I left rack of gear on overnight (projector off) with laptop connected.
> I returned to it this morning and was able to upload old Beta 110317 FW.
> After that and waiting for reboot, everything worked.
> I'm going on vacation so won't tempt the new FW update until I return.
> Will watch forum to see if just a fluke or if anyone else has issues.
> 
> Mike


I had no problems updating to 110817. Works just fine!


----------



## dinamigym

Updated to 110817 with no issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

Eventidal said:


> I had no problems updating to 110817. Works just fine!





dinamigym said:


> Updated to 110817 with no issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great. Glad to know not a systemic issue. Not sure what happened to me.
Will update in a week.
Thanks.
Mike


*EDIT*
Update on FW...

*Beta 110817*
*Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update). 
Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary. 
Small improvement in output mode transitions. 
Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Surfdrifter

Any release notes on the FW of the output modules?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hello Jim, hello Patrick,
a question about the chip firmware update in 110817.
My Radiance Pro does not have an 18GHz output board because I do not have a display that needs it. But eventually I will certainly upgrade to 18GHz.
Will this chip update then be done automatically, or do you have to do something?
Peter


----------



## Gordon Fraser

OMARDRIS said:


> Hello Jim, hello Patrick,
> a question about the chip firmware update in 110817.
> My Radiance Pro does not have an 18GHz output board because I do not have a display that needs it. But eventually I will certainly upgrade to 18GHz.
> Will this chip update then be done automatically, or do you have to do something?
> Peter


I expect it will happen automatically if it is required. The firmware loader checks to see what state each part of the update is already at in the Pro then only updates sections that have been changed since last update.


----------



## Eventidal

OMARDRIS said:


> Hello Jim, hello Patrick,
> a question about the chip firmware update in 110817.
> My Radiance Pro does not have an 18GHz output board because I do not have a display that needs it. But eventually I will certainly upgrade to 18GHz.
> Will this chip update then be done automatically, or do you have to do something?
> Peter


Good one! I only have 9Ghz outputs too, the firmware worked fine!


----------



## OMARDRIS

Gordon Fraser said:


> I expect it will happen automatically if it is required. The firmware loader checks to see what state each part of the update is already at in the Pro then only updates sections that have been changed since last update.


Hey Gordon,
I also assume that it is so. I was just unsure because chip updates are so special.
Thank You
Peter


----------



## BakeApples

Hi Jim, wondering if there is any plan to add color depth for the input/output to the Radiance info screen? I think this would be useful.


----------



## SJHT

Not sure what you mean? Bits are shown both input and output. SJ


----------



## BakeApples

SJHT said:


> Not sure what you mean? Bits are shown both input and output. SJ


I can see color space where do you see color depth? (8-bit, 10-bit, 12–bit)


----------



## SJHT

BakeApples said:


> I can see color space where do you see color depth? (8-bit, 10-bit, 12–bit)


Not intuitive, but on the fourth page of the info screens. Labeled oBpp for output and iBpp for input I believe....


----------



## dlinsley

Mike_WI said:


> So, after noting the new FW Beta 110817, I should have waited.
> However, I loaded FW before family was going to watch a show in the home theater.
> Uploaded successfully as per usual routine.
> I then waited minutes for the "50 seconds" on first power on.
> Then nothing. I can't get menu screen up or any inputs to work.
> Any ideas?
> 
> I have tried forcing a HDMI handshake by removing and plugging back in the projector HDMI.
> I tried to install prior FW, but now computer doesn't see Lumagen.
> I have down a few "off" and standby to on cycles.
> It is in a rack that I have to crawl behind to physically unplug/plug.


I've experienced the same after updating, but thankfully rolling back to 101817 has been solid. I had previously skipped 110317, and I initially tried that after 110817, but it had the same issue for me - mostly black screen, and no Radiance menus/debug being displayed either. My projector (JVC RS600) would receive the correct resolution that I was expecting, but a completely black picture. Sometimes after first turning on the system I would have a picture, but then a resync (for example going from 60hz to 24) would lose it and I couldn't get it back. Going back to 101817 has been solid so far though. I've emailed the pro beta email separately about this.


----------



## netroamer

Mike_WI said:


> So, after noting the new FW Beta 110817, I should have waited.
> However, I loaded FW before family was going to watch a show in the home theater.
> Uploaded successfully as per usual routine.
> I then waited minutes for the "50 seconds" on first power on.
> Then nothing. I can't get menu screen up or any inputs to work.
> Any ideas?
> 
> I have tried forcing a HDMI handshake by removing and plugging back in the projector HDMI.
> I tried to install prior FW, but now computer doesn't see Lumagen.
> I have down a few "off" and standby to on cycles.
> It is in a rack that I have to crawl behind to physically unplug/plug.
> Mike


With power on...
From Remote enter "MENU 0910" The power LED will blink.
From the Remote enter "MENU 0514" The power LED will go dark and then turn to red then Blue. WAIT 2 min. Unplug unit and reboot.
Let us know if this works for you. It did for me.


----------



## dlinsley

netroamer said:


> With power on...
> From Remote enter "MENU 0910" The power LED will blink.
> From the Remote enter "MENU 0514" The power LED will go dark and then turn to red then Blue. WAIT 2 min. Unplug unit and reboot.
> Let us know if this works for you. It did for me.


What does 0514 do? I know 0910 is service mode, but I couldn't find any references to 0514.


----------



## netroamer

dlinsley said:


> What does 0514 do? I know 0910 is service mode, but I couldn't find any references to 0514.


0514 re-initializes all the I/O boards.


----------



## SJHT

My assumption is once you load the latest firmware, your 18 GHz HDMI output card gets an update. There is no way to load the old firmware into the HDMI output board. So, by going to previous firmwares, you are not changing the new HDMI boards firmware. Any feedback from Lumagen on issues with the latest firmware? SJ


----------



## netroamer

SJHT said:


> My assumption is once you load the latest firmware, your 18 GHz HDMI output card gets an update. There is no way to load the old firmware into the HDMI output board. So, by going to previous firmwares, you are not changing the new HDMI boards firmware. Any feedback from Lumagen on issues with the latest firmware? SJ


According to Jim P, it is my understanding that if you perform a boot upload of a previous version, and perform the 0910/0514, described above, you will reflash the I/O boards with the previous code.


----------



## dlinsley

I'll try upgrading again, and doing the 0910/0514, but it seems to be general firmware related since rolling back has been fine.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Update on FW Beta 110817*

Update on FW...

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 110817*
*Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update). 
Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary. 
Small improvement in output mode transitions. 
Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## tspotorno

FYI, I have it installed on my box without issues and I have 2 of the new 18ghz cards (4 ports). We have watched media on both 18 & 9 ghz ports and so far it has been very stable.


----------



## SJHT

Think I will wait on this firmware. My RS600 is picky and works really well with the prior firmware. Also, I’m replacing it in a couple of weeks. SJ


----------



## Wookii

SJHT said:


> Think I will wait on this firmware. My RS600 is picky and works really well with the prior firmware. Also, I’m replacing it in a couple of weeks. SJ


Yeah, stick with 110317, the 18Ghz chip firmware in 110817 is very problematic for JVC projectors.


----------



## mhafner

Wookii said:


> Yeah, stick with 110317, the 18Ghz chip firmware in 110817 is very problematic for JVC projectors.


Only black screens with mine. Went back to earlier firmware.


----------



## dinamigym

Wookii said:


> Yeah, stick with 110317, the 18Ghz chip firmware in 110817 is very problematic for JVC projectors.




That’s interesting because I find this to be one of the best firmware upgrades yet as far as switching speed and stability with my Sony 5000


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

dinamigym said:


> That’s interesting because I find this to be one of the best firmware upgrades yet as far as switching speed and stability with my Sony 5000
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Good to know. Will update when my new Sony 885 arrives!


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> Update on FW...
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 110817*
> *Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
> Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update).
> Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary.
> Small improvement in output mode transitions.
> Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I can concur, I've had instability issues with this firmware


----------



## tibia

thrang said:


> I can concur, I've had instability issues with this firmware


I, on the other hand, have had no problems with Beta 110817 running my JVC RS600 and Radiance Pro which has 18GHz I/O cards.
Best regards,
Dennis

For what it's worth I have a 25' Luxe Series CL3 Active Cable between projector and processor.


----------



## sjschaff

dinamigym said:


> That’s interesting because I find this to be one of the best firmware upgrades yet as far as switching speed and stability with my Sony 5000
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agree on the switching speeds. This one seems a keeper, though I've got to see if it helps with watching discs perform layer changes smoothly, or not.
Appears I need to keep a list of key elements I'm looking for with Lumagen performance. Some are positive while introducing issues. Like a case of 2 steps forward and 1 step back...


----------



## Wookii

Very odd - so we have two 5000ES owners with conflicting feedback, and several RS600 owners with conflicting feedback.

Those guys that say they are having no issues with FW 110817, are you switching multiple times between 2160p sources and getting HDMI handshake without issue? Have you tried a 2160p/60 source and handshake first time? 

Also have you done a full hard reboot after installing the firmware to ensure the 18Ghz firmware has been installed.


----------



## tibia

Wookii said:


> Very odd - so we have two 5000ES owners with conflicting feedback, and several RS600 owners with conflicting feedback.
> 
> Those guys that say they are having no issues with FW 110817, are you switching multiple times between 2160p sources and getting HDMI handshake without issue? Have you tried a 2160p/60 source and handshake first time?
> 
> Also have you done a full hard reboot after installing the firmware to ensure the 18Ghz firmware has been installed.


Perhaps the reason I am not having any problems is that I only have an OPPO 203 as a 4K source for playing UHD movies but occasionally use its external HDMI input for playing 2160p/60 files from Win 10 PC. Also have a OPPO 103D feeding second input on the Pro for 1080p BR, cable box and Netflix. I do not have an AVR so when system is off there is no 120VAC to any component except for RS600 and a custom controller. Obviously the Pro and OPPOs then get full hard reboots whenever I turn-on the system.


----------



## Mike_WI

Wookii said:


> Very odd - so we have two 5000ES owners with conflicting feedback, and several RS600 owners with conflicting feedback.
> 
> Those guys that say they are having no issues with FW 110817, are you switching multiple times between 2160p sources and getting HDMI handshake without issue? Have you tried a 2160p/60 source and handshake first time?
> 
> Also have you done a full hard reboot after installing the firmware to ensure the 18Ghz firmware has been installed.


My notes are above.
However, the AVS forum sampling is likely not telling us the numerator and denominator of the problem.
Likely only Lumagen knows that from forums and direct communications.
Since they noted "Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware..." it is likely more than isolated cases.

Mike


----------



## dinamigym

Wookii said:


> Very odd - so we have two 5000ES owners with conflicting feedback, and several RS600 owners with conflicting feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> Those guys that say they are having no issues with FW 110817, are you switching multiple times between 2160p sources and getting HDMI handshake without issue? Have you tried a 2160p/60 source and handshake first time?
> 
> 
> 
> Also have you done a full hard reboot after installing the firmware to ensure the 18Ghz firmware has been installed.




For whatever it’s worth I have done all of the above and have frequently switched between KScape Strato, KScape m500 player, oppo 203, xfinity x1 Box, Apple TV 4K, Fire tv. My switching has always been a bit problematic probably in part due to a 45ft run from lumagen to projector, however, after new firmware it’s by far the best it’s ever been. My lumagen is 100% 18Ghz cards if that helps.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

dinamigym said:


> For whatever it’s worth I have done all of the above and have frequently switched between KScape Strato, KScape m500 player, oppo 203, xfinity x1 Box, Apple TV 4K, Fire tv. My switching has always been a bit problematic probably in part due to a 45ft run from lumagen to projector, however, after new firmware it’s by far the best it’s ever been. My lumagen is 100% 18Ghz cards if that helps.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What is your projector?


----------



## dinamigym

Mike_WI said:


> What is your projector?




Sony 5000


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesmil

No issues with my Epson LS10000 either, this has been a good update for me.


----------



## jrp

jamesmil said:


> No issues with my Epson LS10000 either, this has been a good update for me.


We do not have any data on percentage of systems with issues with 110817. We do have more people saying it is the best ever than are saying they have issues. Some who say it is the best use the same projector as some who say not so good.

Patrick sent out a test release with the only difference from 110817 being the roll-back of the 18 GHz output chip microcode, and I believe this fixed all of the hand-full having issues with 110817 (who have reported back). 

We do not know exactly what the chip vendor put in this new 18 GHz output chip release since the vendors notes are cryptic. We do know that the 110817 18 GHz output microcode takes the already low jitter and low bit error rate of the Pro 18 GHz output down significantly (as measured on Tektronix HDMI test gear). We also know that what the chip vendor did shortens lock-on time in downstream devices from our testing. 

What I suspect *may* be going on is the chip vendor has removed some of the "belts and suspenders" propping up some input designs in TVs and projectors. I suspect this as we have found the same thing as an issue. That is, our software needs to do things in a "gentle way" or some devices will not lock on the signal change (even then they sometimes don't). These are things not required by HDMI but some vendors implementations are not robust enough to live without.

Not saying the Radiance Pro is perfect. No HDMI implementation can be "perfect" since there are a number of details left to the manufacturers and chip vendors, and this leads to too many variables. In the Radiance Pro we have the two-edged sword of the HDMI 2 I/O chips being essentially autonomous with their own internal microprocessor to control virtually all interface aspects for HDMI. On the positive side other manufacturers using the Silicon Image (now Lattice) HDMI 2 chips should work well together. The bad is if an issue does not rise to the point of being a priority for the chip vendor there is sometimes little we can do in our software about the issue. Fortunately Patrick has been been able to work around almost all the issues that have been discovered in the HDMI 2 I/O chips. 

This is a frustrating situation for us. We believe the new 18 GHz output firmware is actually better from a purely HDMI implementation standpoint. We are discussing what to do longer term, but the next release will (most likely) have the older 18 GHz output firmware. After that we hope we can figure out the issue(s) some have with the new 18 GHz output firmware and perhaps be able to work around the issue while still using the new microcode. Or perhaps the chip vendor can figure out the issues and provide another firmware release.

If you have 110817 loaded, and have issues, also make sure you have the latest software in your TV/projector. I am told this is very important for the Sony VW5000 and that the current software has significant improvements. I also strongly recommend a 18 GHz fiber cable for any long (over three to four meter) connections from the Pro to the projector/TV. We see excellent results with the RUIPRO 18 GHz fiber, and the Monoprice 18 GHz fiber, cables. In fact if you switch to one of these and it does not help (or makes things worse) please contact me at support @ lumagen.com and let me know. I would like as much feedback either way as we can get. So far virtually all feedback on these cables has been positive.


----------



## jrp

OMARDRIS said:


> Hello Jim, hello Patrick,
> a question about the chip firmware update in 110817.
> My Radiance Pro does not have an 18GHz output board because I do not have a display that needs it. But eventually I will certainly upgrade to 18GHz.
> Will this chip update then be done automatically, or do you have to do something?
> Peter


With any recent Radiance Pro firmware the I/O cards are detected at turn-on, and if they do not have the expected "microcode" they are automatically updated. No need for you to do anything special.

Note that if the I/O microcode needs to be updated it can add a minute to the turn on time.


----------



## jrp

A note on reverting to earlier software:

If the I/O microcode is "down rev'd" due to rolling back firmware, with the current releases at least you need to do the update, turn the unit on, wait until booted (you may get a picture just fine since there is still microcode in the I/O chips. If no picture wait one minute), then go to Standby and back on. Then the I/O microcode is actually updated and so allow a minute for this turn-on.

This step is not required if the I/O microcode is the same for both the release on the unit and the one you are reverting to. There is no easy way to know other than reading all the intervening release notes though and it does not hurt to do this step.

This is an unplanned requirement of the current releases when rolling back I/O microcode that may be something we can improve on in the future.


----------



## dinamigym

jrp said:


> We do not have any data on percentage of systems with issues with 110817. We do have more people saying it is the best ever than are saying they have issues. Some who say it is the best use the same projector as some who say not so good.
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick sent out a test release with the only difference from 110817 being the roll-back of the 18 GHz output chip microcode, and I believe this fixed all of the hand-full having issues with 110817 (who have reported back).
> 
> 
> 
> We do not know exactly what the chip vendor put in this new 18 GHz output chip release since the vendors notes are cryptic. We do know that the 110817 18 GHz output microcode takes the already low jitter and low bit error rate of the Pro 18 GHz output down significantly (as measured on Tektronix HDMI test gear). We also know that what the chip vendor did shortens lock-on time in downstream devices from our testing.
> 
> 
> 
> What I suspect *may* be going on is the chip vendor has removed some of the "belts and suspenders" propping up some input designs in TVs and projectors. I suspect this as we have found the same thing as an issue. That is, our software needs to do things in a "gentle way" or some devices will not lock on the signal change (even then they sometimes don't). These are things not required by HDMI but some vendors implementations are not robust enough to live without.
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying the Radiance Pro is perfect. No HDMI implementation can be "perfect" since there are a number of details left to the manufacturers and chip vendors, and this leads to too many variables. In the Radiance Pro we have the two-edged sword of the HDMI 2 I/O chips being essentially autonomous with their own internal microprocessor to control virtually all interface aspects for HDMI. On the positive side other manufacturers using the Silicon Image (now Lattice) HDMI 2 chips should work well together. The bad is if an issue does not rise to the point of being a priority for the chip vendor there is sometimes little we can do in our software about the issue. Fortunately Patrick has been been able to work around almost all the issues that have been discovered in the HDMI 2 I/O chips.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a frustrating situation for us. We believe the new 18 GHz output firmware is actually better from a purely HDMI implementation standpoint. We are discussing what to do longer term, but the next release will (most likely) have the older 18 GHz output firmware. After that we hope we can figure out the issue(s) some have with the new 18 GHz output firmware and perhaps be able to work around the issue while still using the new microcode. Or perhaps the chip vendor can figure out the issues and provide another firmware release.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have 110817 loaded, and have issues, also make sure you have the latest software in your TV/projector. I am told this is very important for the Sony VW5000 and that the current software has significant improvements. I also strongly recommend a 18 GHz fiber cable for any long (over three to four meter) connections from the Pro to the projector/TV. We see excellent results with the RUIPRO 18 GHz fiber, and the Monoprice 18 GHz fiber, cables. In fact if you switch to one of these and it does not help (or makes things worse) please contact me at support @ lumagen.com and let me know. I would like as much feedback either way as we can get. So far virtually all feedback on these cables has been positive.




I use 45ft Monoprice 18GHz fiber with Sony 5000 latest firmware and latest Lumagen firmware and everything appears as to work as good as it ever has from a stability and switching standpoint.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirk44

Hello Mike and Steve,

in a few days the 7 Nolan UHD Movies will be released.
As you know most his changing the Aspect Ratio all the time.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/117-2...32084-dunkirk-bd-release-dec-19-2017-a-2.html
The Lumagen Pro has the option to chance the AR automaticlly, but I realize that the option is use, because there is a major delay, the delay times changed every time also.
Can you please take a look at it and try to fix it, for exemaple with of nolans br discs dark knight or interstellar 

Best Regards dirk


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> A note on reverting to earlier software:
> 
> If the I/O microcode is "down rev'd" due to rolling back firmware, with the current releases at least you need to do the update, turn the unit on, wait until booted (you may get a picture just fine since there is still microcode in the I/O chips. If no picture wait one minute), then go to Standby and back on. Then the I/O microcode is actually updated and so allow a minute for this turn-on.
> 
> This step is not required if the I/O microcode is the same for both the release on the unit and the one you are reverting to. There is no easy way to know other than reading all the intervening release notes though and it does not hurt to do this step.
> 
> This is an unplanned requirement of the current releases when rolling back I/O microcode that may be something we can improve on in the future.


Can we assume that your recent posts do not apply to those of us without either 18Ghtz input or output boards installed?


----------



## jrp

netroamer said:


> According to Jim P, it is my understanding that if you perform a boot upload of a previous version, and perform the 0910/0514, described above, you will reflash the I/O boards with the previous code.


To make sure this is clear:

Every time you power on the Radiance Pro the "power up" code checks if the I/O "microcode" in the HDMI 2.0 Input and Output chips is the version associated with that update. It does not matter if you are just turning the unit on, just did a normal update, reverted to an earlier release, or swapping an I/O card. Any card with microcode different than the one associated with the loaded software version will be re-flashed automatically. When this happens the turn on time is increased to a bit less than one minute. As previously posted, when reverting to earlier software this may be the second power on from Standby.

We recommend you do a "normal" update, unless you have an update fail. When updating to a new release that uses the same FPGA code this will be faster. 

The "Force" option and the "Boot Mode Update" option both overwrite all code including the FPGA code and so take about 5 to 6 minutes (verses about one minute for a normal update that does not need to load new FPGA code).

After a failed update (where the microprocessor might be running corrupt code), use the boot-mode-update as described in the Tech Tip that comes with the update. Running corrupt code could keep any future "normal" or "forced" updates from working. 

Personally I never do a "Force" update. I either do a "normal" update or a "Boot-mode" update since the time to do a Boot-mode update is the same as a Force update. A Boot-mode update uses only a small never-changed write-protected boot-code-section and so is not affected by a failed update.

There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.

Personally I remove wall power after an update. Generally not needed, but since the microprocessor continues to run "standby code" after the update completes when the unit goes to Standby. So there is a chance that something quietly had an issue during the update which might cause issues from turning on from standby but is likely fine from a cold-start after connecting wall power.

Note that a software update, or reverting software, (so far) does not affect your configuration. If there is an update that affects the configuration we would put that in the update description.

==== 

Okay, that was rather pedantic. The good news is that in almost all cases you just do a normal update.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 112317*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 112317*
Put back 110317 version of 18Ghz output chip firmware (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds due to this). 
Can turn off audio on the video output of 18Ghz cards now. 
Numerous small improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> Can we assume that your recent posts do not apply to those of us without either 18Ghz input or output boards installed?


Correct. 

The 9 GHz input and output cards' microcode are not affected by the discussion on 18 GHz microcode.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 112417*



Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 112317*
> Put back 110317 version of 18Ghz output chip firmware (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds due to this).
> Can turn off audio on the video output of 18Ghz cards now.
> Numerous small improvements.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


A few hours later and looks like this is not on website anymore?

*EDIT*
And now this is up...

*Beta 112417*
Put back 110317 version of 18Ghz output chip firmware (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds due to this). 
Can turn off audio on the video output of 18Ghz cards now. 
Numerous small improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Surfdrifter

I don't know if this has been asked before, but since HDMI 2.1 has been announced, I want to ask.

Can the Lumagen Pro be upgraded with HDMI 2.1 modules in the future?


----------



## Dirk44

Dirk44 said:


> in a few days the 7 Nolan UHD Movies will be released.
> As you know most his changing the Aspect Ratio all the time.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/117-2...32084-dunkirk-bd-release-dec-19-2017-a-2.html
> The Lumagen Pro has the option to chance the AR automaticlly, but I realize that the option is use, because there is a major delay, the delay times changed every time also.
> Can you please take a look at it and try to fix it, for exemaple with of nolans br discs dark knight or interstellar
> 
> Best Regards dirk


I'm sorry I mean Jim und Patrick !
P.S.
To get the auto aspect working, without any delay would be a great bargain for the Pro in the eyes of a lot of home theater geeks


----------



## BrolicBeast

Dirk44 said:


> I'm sorry I mean Jim und Patrick !
> P.S.
> To get the auto aspect working, without any delay would be a great bargain for the Pro in the eyes of a lot of home theater geeks


For variable aspect ratios, the only solution that I've truly loved when i was using a 2:35 screen was to set the Lumagen to crop the top and bottom 12% of the image (the zoomed area of the screen) so content was simply not seen. Made for a very seamless experience. With my current 16:9 setup, the Lumagen auto detects and zooms every 2:35 film to fill the 16:9 screen, with minor cropping at the sides (like what studios do for their movies to playback on home televisions). 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

BrolicBeast said:


> For variable aspect ratios, the only solution that I've truly loved when i was using a 2:35 screen was to set the Lumagen to crop the top and bottom 12% of the image (the zoomed area of the screen) so content was simply not seen. Made for a very seamless experience. With my current 16:9 setup, the Lumagen auto detects and zooms every 2:35 film to fill the 16:9 screen, with minor cropping at the sides (like what studios do for their movies to playback on home televisions).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


So, just zoom up the 2.35 movie to fill the screen? I currently do a little zooming, but not all the way (I also have a 16:9 screen). What do you mean by auto detects?

Thanks. SJ


----------



## BrolicBeast

SJHT said:


> So, just zoom up the 2.35 movie to fill the screen? I currently do a little zooming, but not all the way (I also have a 16:9 screen). What do you mean by auto detects?
> 
> Thanks. SJ


Yup, this is Valerian zoomed from 2:35 to 16:9. Nothing lost from the experience. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcFXVGoDjlB/

The Lumagen can auto-detect 2:35 and zoom to 16:9. Earlier iterations were hit or miss, but its really on point now.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

BrolicBeast said:


> Yup, this is Valerian zoomed from 2:35 to 16:9. Nothing lost from the experience.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcFXVGoDjlB/
> 
> The Lumagen can auto-detect 2:35 and zoom to 16:9. Earlier iterations were hit or miss, but its really on point now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Sorry, but I'm not understanding "auto detect". Meaning, you don't even push a button for this to happen with 2.35 films? I just use the zoom button, but sounds like this might be different? Thanks. SJ


----------



## BrolicBeast

SJHT said:


> ...*you don't even push a button for this to happen with 2.35 films? I just use the zoom button, but sounds like this might be different?*


 
Correct! Check it out from p22 from the manual below. I'm currently working on a sort of video instruction manual for the Lumagen Pro....and that's how I learned about this!


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 112317*
> Put back 110317 version of 18Ghz output chip firmware (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds due to this).
> Can turn off audio on the video output of 18Ghz cards now.
> Numerous small improvements.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Tivo is now forced to 480p rec601 input, and I can't fix it with soft/hard reboots or re-installs...these never ending HDMI problems with the Pro is getting very frustrating.

EDIT - And if I by pass the Lumagen, the Tivo outputs the native channel resolution. So what the hell...


----------



## thrang

So if I back up my config and do a factory reset, the Tivo is proper at 1080...when I restore my config, the Tivo is negotiating back at 480p

So did the firmware bork my config? Is there something obvious that might have toggled to cause this?

All my sources go to input 1 (18 ghz) via my Anthem AVR. My 4k sources (Apple TV, Sony UHD) show correct resolution and colorspace going to the same input. I did try bypassing my AVR, taking the Tivo direct the Lumagen, but its still 480p - so its not the Anthem.

Dune Player outputting 1080p is reporting correct resolution, though the image rez'd correctly, the ratio is horizontally squeezed a bit...


----------



## dinamigym

thrang said:


> So if I back up my config and do a factory reset, the Tivo is proper at 1080...when I restore my config, the Tivo is negotiating back at 480p
> 
> 
> 
> So did the firmware bork my config? Is there something obvious that might have toggled to cause this?
> 
> 
> 
> All my sources go to input 1 (18 ghz) via my Anthem AVR. My 4k sources (Apple TV, Sony UHD) show correct resolution and colorspace going to the same input. I did try bypassing my AVR, taking the Tivo direct the Lumagen, but its still 480p - so its not the Anthem.
> 
> 
> 
> Dune Player outputting 1080p is reporting correct resolution, though the image rez'd correctly, the ratio is horizontally squeezed a bit...




My Strato did the same thing post update, however, after I performed a hard reboot on the Strato all is back to normal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Surfdrifter

I updated to the latest FW and now I cannot lock to any signal at all. It tries to lock and loses connectivity with my Yamaha AVR all the time. Force Updated also, during boot mode. Nothing. I'm now uploading 110317 version.


----------



## dinamigym

Surfdrifter said:


> I updated to the latest FW and now I cannot lock to any signal at all. It tries to lock and loses connectivity with my Yamaha AVR all the time. Force Updated also, during boot mode. Nothing. I'm now uploading 110317 version.




Did you try bypassing the AVR for video and going direct from Lumagen only using AVR for Audio? I have no problems with latest firmware but use AVR for audio only.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

@jrp

Do you have a PC tool that lets you look into what a Pro is seeing/doing during these non-output episodes? If so maybe you can supply a version of it to customers/installers to remote troubleshoot customer configurations with the long term goal of learning more to avoid these issues. Maybe even a log recorder to capture performance issues over time


----------



## Surfdrifter

dinamigym said:


> Did you try bypassing the AVR for video and going direct from Lumagen only using AVR for Audio? I have no problems with latest firmware but use AVR for audio only.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, and i will not. I need my AVR to do the switching, because I need to utilize a second zone and I don't have extra inputs on my Lumagen. I only have 2 inputs. Also it would be a MAJOR pain to rearrange the cabling on my rack.

OK, I reverted to 110317 and now it works. I won't put the new beta. I'll wait for the 1st stable official firmware!


----------



## Surfdrifter

Well. It worked for my tv, but I cannot lock no matter what to my jvc anymore. Something really bad is going on. I bypassed Lumagen and connected my avr directly to my pj to be able to see a movie with friends. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

The last few updates needed more time to cook in the oven...

The firmware borked a few configurations settings for me, which I could fix only after hours of hunting. Iinterlaced was turned off which was forcing the TiVo to output 480p, and some odd auto aspect bug was shrinking 1080p from any source to a 4:3 ratio. I turned auto aspect off for now to avoid this but it still may be an issue.

What I cannot get around is now my Apple 4kTV will only sync at 4kHDR - any other valid video setting is reverted back to 4kHDR (I even get a comical message on the apple TV saying to check if my cables are compatible with _SDR_!) No number of hard reboots do a thing, and even disabling 2020 and HDR in the input menu on the Radiance changes the condition (shouldn't this tell the source 2020 and HDR are not valid and dont send?) Crazy stuff...

I will say that in this testing, I connected all sources back to the Pro, and am sending audio out to the Anthem (which I don't like because I prefer to have the Anthem on screen menu option). While the above issues persisted regardless of which source path I followed (since it was the borked settings that I had to ferret out and correct), I am seeing faster input switching this way. And while I know Lumagen always says this is the preferred method of connecting, I believe a number of people do use their AVR for switching for various reasons. So I'll reiterate what I said a year ago - Lumagen should prioritize picture in picture so the AVR HDMI out can be called up in a nested window when the need for viewing the OSD is required. This will encourage more people to connect direct to the Radiance and perhaps greatly reduce their headaches...(presuming there is no HDMI loop created with this topology)


----------



## thrang

New firmware on the Lumagen site fixes the Apple TV forced 4khdr mode issue.


----------



## telem

dinamigym said:


> That’s interesting because I find this to be one of the best firmware upgrades yet as far as switching speed and stability with my Sony 5000
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


+1
Upgraded yesterday and I can confirm that source switching is much faster than before with the Sony 5000.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 112517*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 112517*
Bug in 112417 would cause video loss or sources to revert video modes (4k ATV) in some cases when the source initiated a mode change. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## dinamigym

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 112517*
> 
> Bug in 112417 would cause video loss or sources to revert video modes (4k ATV) in some cases when the source initiated a mode change.
> 
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware




Just installed...My stuff works as flawless as it ever has. Such an improvement in switching, sync, stability over the way it was before the 18G update!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

*Sony 5000 & latest FW*

Thanks.
I'm waiting to hear how it goes with JVC projectors in the chain
Mike



dinamigym said:


> That’s interesting because I find this to be one of the best firmware upgrades yet as far as switching speed and stability with my Sony 5000
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





dinamigym said:


> Sony 5000
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





dinamigym said:


> Just installed...My stuff works as flawless as it ever has. Such an improvement in switching, sync, stability over the way it was before the 18G update!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KarlKlammer

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks.
> I'm waiting to hear how it goes with JVC projectors in the chain
> Mike


So far everything looks good with 112517.
110817 was problematic with my output.
112417 was problematic with my input.


----------



## Alyaji

telem said:


> +1
> Upgraded yesterday and I can confirm that source switching is much faster than before with the Sony 5000.


+2
With a Sony 1100. Still on the 110817 firmware and great improvement in terms of switching. No other issue noted at this point.


----------



## Surfdrifter

I'm going to try the 112517 today. 112417 was a nightmare to me...


----------



## mhafner

112417 and 110817 did not work for me. 112417 could not deal with the Panasonic UHD player output going to my JVC projector. I'm hesitant to try the latest now due to all the failures and lost time.


----------



## Dirk44

BrolicBeast said:


> For variable aspect ratios, the only solution that I've truly loved when i was using a 2:35 screen was to set the Lumagen to crop the top and bottom 12% of the image (the zoomed area of the screen) so content was simply not seen. Made for a very seamless experience. With my current 16:9 setup, the Lumagen auto detects and zooms every 2:35 film to fill the 16:9 screen, with minor cropping at the sides (like what studios do for their movies to playback on home televisions).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Hello Brolic,

i think you misunderstand me, I don't talk about different Aspect Ratios in different Movies, I talk about movies, there the aspect ratio switch in the same movie all the time (the dark knight etc.), 
the Lumagen Pro has an Option for this, but unfortunaly is work only with a 4-5 sec Delay so far !

Nice theater by the way dirk


----------



## gazza1980

Hello everyone, I'm Italian and I apologize for how I write.
I'm using the google translator because I'm not very good at writing in english.
I'm thinking of buying the radiance pro 4242 with all the HDMI 18gb and I'm writing to ask you for advice because in the Italian forums there are still many owners of the radiance pro.
I explain my situation and then I ask you for an opinion
I do not have a theater room, I use everything in the living room, as a tv I have a Sony 65A1, as sources I have:
Sky, oppo 203, apple tv 4k,
the question is, would I benefit from buying this processor?

thank you all


----------



## BrolicBeast

Dirk44 said:


> Hello Brolic,
> 
> i think you misunderstand me, I don't talk about different Aspect Ratios in different Movies, I talk about movies, there the aspect ratio switch in the same movie all the time (the dark knight etc.),
> the Lumagen Pro has an Option for this, but unfortunaly is work only with a 4-5 sec Delay so far !
> 
> Nice theater by the way dirk



Hey Dirk:


Yup, that's what I was referring too. By cropping the top and bottom 12% (usually black bars anyway via zoom method), you keep your 2:35 image the same within variable aspect ratio movies like The Dark Knight or Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. You can keep auto aspect off if you do this. Check out the 8:39 mark on this very old video:








As the screen transitions from the Joker in Aaron Eckhart's hospital bed to Bruce Wayne's Lambo at the 8:39 mark, the hospital bed scene is 2:35 and the lambo scene is full 16:9 IMAX, but keeping the screen cropped at 2:35 makes it seamless.


If you have a 16:9 screen, or use an anamorphic lens, there are variations of this option to ensure a seamless aspect ratio experience during variable aspect ratio sequences.


Thanks for the room kudos, btw.


----------



## thrang

Think there is still a lingering issue with 112517 and the Apple TV - the resolution seems to reset to 4kHDR (in my case) after a complete power down and power up of the system. So while the system is booted, the ATV resolution selection stays as set; but it seems to revert to 4k HDR after a complete power down/power up

I don't see this with two other ATV 4k's on Vizio and Sony flat panels, neither of which have a Radiance in the chain.

Still not sure what is going on, but curious if others see this...


----------



## Ash Sharma

uderman said:


> As stanher said, most sources are 1080p60 fixed nowadays but with genlock and inverse telecine, Lumagen is able to convert it back to 1080p24 without any tears. And for getting near native output, you have to research media players. I use a Tivo roamio pro box which can output netflix, hulu, vudu in native resolutions. Tivo bolt can do netflix 4k too.
> 
> I have my oppo set to source direct and tivo roamio pro (for cable tv) set to source direct. I get dvd, bd, netflix, hulu, vudu and youtube in native resolutions into Lumagen this way.


Uderman,
With TIVO for example VUDU - do you get UHD movies from TOVO Bolt 4K? 
Can you get both the HDR and DV Version using the Lumagen?
Also, can you split Dolby VUDU ATMOS to your receiver?
I have been avoiding getting a Lumagen Pro for my HT with a projector and I will be upgrading by Circa 2013 TIVO Roamio and Mini's to 4K VOX boxes and this usability will be very useful for the HT and whole house distribution.


----------



## Surfdrifter

gazza1980 said:


> Hello everyone, I'm Italian and I apologize for how I write.
> I'm using the google translator because I'm not very good at writing in english.
> I'm thinking of buying the radiance pro 4242 with all the HDMI 18gb and I'm writing to ask you for advice because in the Italian forums there are still many owners of the radiance pro.
> I explain my situation and then I ask you for an opinion
> I do not have a theater room, I use everything in the living room, as a tv I have a Sony 65A1, as sources I have:
> Sky, oppo 203, apple tv 4k,
> the question is, would I benefit from buying this processor?
> 
> thank you all


Do you have tools to calibrate your screen (i.e. spectro, colorimeter) or at least access to a professional calibrator? If yes, Lumagen can help you, but please know that you cannot have 3D LUTs (at least for now) for HDR, only for SDR.

Lumagen really helps PJs with it's HDR Mapping tools and Aspect ratio management. Even though, I have one and cannot think of my theater ever without a Lumagen, I really don't know if you need one.

I would suggest to ask other people's opinions and also contact directly Lumagen and ask for advice.



thrang said:


> Think there is still a lingering issue with 112517 and the Apple TV - the resolution seems to reset to 4kHDR (in my case) after a complete power down and power up of the system. So while the system is booted, the ATV resolution selection stays as set; but it seems to revert to 4k HDR after a complete power down/power up
> 
> I don't see this with two other ATV 4k's on Vizio and Sony flat panels, neither of which have a Radiance in the chain.
> 
> Still not sure what is going on, but curious if others see this...


What are your settingson ATV? I can try to replicate the issue.


----------



## thrang

Surfdrifter said:


> Do you have tools to calibrate your screen (i.e. spectro, colorimeter) or at least access to a professional calibrator? If yes, Lumagen can help you, but please know that you cannot have 3D LUTs (at least for now) for HDR, only for SDR.
> 
> Lumagen really helps PJs with it's HDR Mapping tools and Aspect ratio management. Even though, I have one and cannot think of my theater ever without a Lumagen, I really don't know if you need one.
> 
> I would suggest to ask other people's opinions and also contact directly Lumagen and ask for advice.
> 
> 
> What are your settingson ATV? I can try to replicate the issue.


In my case, 4k SDR, with frame rate and color space matching ON on the ATV. Upon booting the system up, it has reverted to 4k HDR three times in a row...once I correct, it sticks until the next power cycle...


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> In my case, 4k SDR, with frame rate and color space matching ON on the ATV. Upon booting the system up, it has reverted to 4k HDR three times in a row...once I correct, it sticks until the next power cycle...


Does it happen if you power cycle just the ATV or just the Pro? Have you tried changing the boot order/boot delay?


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Does it happen if you power cycle just the ATV or just the Pro? Have you tried changing the boot order/boot delay?


Really haven't gotten that far - just discovered this in the past 24 hours and haven't spend much time in the theater...plus TBH, I've been pretty dismayed by the recent firmware issues, and have slowed down the bleeding edge attitude toward investigating issues...


----------



## gazza1980

Surfdrifter said:


> Do you have tools to calibrate your screen (i.e. spectro, colorimeter) or at least access to a professional calibrator? If yes, Lumagen can help you, but please know that you cannot have 3D LUTs (at least for now) for HDR, only for SDR.


thanks for your answer.
the owner of the shop where I buy the radiance makes me a professional calibration with lightspace.

If I understand correctly, you can not do the dual calibration SDR + HDR?

but with radiance and calibration would I benefit in my OLED?


----------



## Surfdrifter

gazza1980 said:


> thanks for your answer.
> the owner of the shop where I buy the radiance makes me a professional calibration with lightspace.
> 
> If I understand correctly, you can not do the dual calibration SDR + HDR?
> 
> but with radiance and calibration would I benefit in my OLED?


I just bought an OLED few days ago, and try to see, what it can be done with Lumagen to tell you the truth. I have Calman, which in theory calibrates HDR, but haven't tried it yet and I'm pretty sure it will not use Lumagen.

I think it's also a good idea to ask your calibrator about your options


----------



## thrang

gazza1980 said:


> thanks for your answer.
> the owner of the shop where I buy the radiance makes me a professional calibration with lightspace.
> 
> If I understand correctly, you can not do the dual calibration SDR + HDR?
> 
> but with radiance and calibration would I benefit in my OLED?


Will the room be light controlled? Much of the nuanced benefit of a calibration will be lost in a room that has some light wash...

Perhaps there are other benefits (switching, scaling, etc...) that would be useful, but to me, the CMS/HDR IM, and aspect control are larger benefits, of which you will leverage only a portion thereof I suspect...


----------



## gazza1980

thrang said:


> Will the room be light controlled? Much of the nuanced benefit of a calibration will be lost in a room that has some light wash...
> 
> Perhaps there are other benefits (switching, scaling, etc...) that would be useful, but to me, the CMS/HDR IM, and aspect control are larger benefits, of which you will leverage only a portion thereof I suspect...


The room is a living room with white walls, but during the day watching TV my son, I use it in the evening with windows closed in the dark complete ....
do you advise against the purchase? I would not throw so much money to have little or no benefits


----------



## gazza1980

Surfdrifter said:


> I think it's also a good idea to ask your calibrator about your options


he says I would have benefits, but I would not want them to be more beneficial to his wallet than my Oled ....


----------



## LJG

Wondering if anyone else out there with a Roku 4K ultra is having the same issues I experience with the Pro in the chain. Netflix automatically defaults to rec2020 colorspace even when the source is 709. If I connect the Roku direct rec 709 is shown correctly for the 709 sources.


----------



## mhafner

The latest firmware is working with my JVC projector so far. No issues.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> @jrp
> 
> Do you have a PC tool that lets you look into what a Pro is seeing/doing during these non-output episodes? If so maybe you can supply a version of it to customers/installers to remote troubleshoot customer configurations with the long term goal of learning more to avoid these issues. Maybe even a log recorder to capture performance issues over time


Your question is reasonable, but let me explain why we think such a tool would be of little practical value for these screen black outs.

We use the software compiler debug tool ability to monitor, read and/or write the various chips. This provides more access to what is going on than an external RS-232 tool can. This is one reason we always say we need to "reproduce it the lab."

However, in the lab what we see is the output chip reports "all is well" when a black screen occurs on the TV. And the Pro is otherwise running normally. I believe this is the case essentially all the time in the field. So even when you have a black screen the status would likely report nothing of value.

There is one exception to this we think we have eliminated. That is if the Pro software is receiving too many interrupts due to an I/O chip retying continuously. In this case in the past the Pro fails to respond to the IR remote due to being overloaded with interrupts. You would know this is occurring by lack of remote response. The current software releases look for these overactive interrupt cases and restarts the affected I/O chip to get it back on track.

So in the cases we have seen in the lab the Pro is outputting video and the output chip reports all is well. It is the TV/projector not locking on the Pro's output signal. NOTE: I'm not saying that the TV/projector or HDMI cable is necessarily at fault. Rather it is some sequence of events the Radiance Pro's autonomous HDMI output chip is doing that confuses the TV/projector input, or issues with HDCP not visible to the software from the Pro output chip, or sometimes the TV/projector not locking on the signal electrically after a "HDMI output restart."

So the only thing the software can do is "gently" change the Pro outputs to minimize the chances the downstream device fails to lock onto the change. If the Pro output software does things as abruptly as HDMI allows we see downstream devices that lock up. Sounds simple but in fact this has been a huge effort since different TVs/projectors/receivers all seem to want things slightly differently for them to accept the changes. Increasing this difficultly is the fact that the Pro output chips are autonomous and give the Pro software only a few commands to control the output changes.

We see a number of TVs that seem very robust and no special "gentleness" is needed. We also see TVs and projectors that really seem to sometimes lock up if everything is not exactly what they want including things not in the HDMI spec as being needed, or just have a marginal input that does not always lock on the signal. I am not saying this clears the Radiance Pro output chip as we have little visibility into what it is doing in these bad cases. For example, we believe the 110817 release output microcode is a significant improvement from earlier output microcode but had to pull it for now since there are some systems that do not work well with "the better code."

So trying to develop such debug tools is a lot of work and we believe would be of little to no real value in helping us find these issues. As always we appreciate your interest in helping us improve the Radiance Pro but do not think this would help. We believe engineering time is better spent on code debug in the lab.


----------



## jrp

To clear up some questions:

The Radiance Pro has separate calibrations for SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1) sources at defaults. You can have up to four calibrations for each since there are eight CMS memories.

Our recommendation is to use the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping to "output HDR in a SDR container." In this case you actually calibrate for HDR source in "SDR Rec 2020" space.

Calman cannot do a true HDR 3D LUT in the Pro at this time. This may change. It can do the "SDR2020" mode calibration we recommend for viewing HDR source in a SDR container using the Radiance Pro.

Lightspace can do a true HDR 3D LUT calibration with the Pro. However, this is not our recommended method.

Tom at Chromapure is working on 3D LUT calibration for the Radiance Pro for HDR sources, but I think they will first do the "SDR 2020" calibration we recommend for HDR sources.

The problem with an single LUT approach to HDR is it is "one size fit all" and there is a large variance in HDR sources. The Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping dynamically changes the transfer function based on the HDR Info Frame data. So it adapts the transfer function differently for lower light movies (e.g. The Great Gatsby) verses higher light movies (e.g. Mad Max Fury Road) based on the HDR Info Frame and user settings for the HDR Intensity Mapping.

The feedback we are getting is that the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping, and optionally 3D LUT SDR2020 calibration, does HDR10 Tone Mapping better than any TV or projector at this time.

================ 

I am attaching the webinar presentation I gave earlier today to dealers and calibrators. I believe it will help everyone working with the Radiance Pro understand setup and calibration better. Normally I prefer questions be sent to support @ lumagen.com, but for questions on the webinar presentation it might be best to post them here and I can try to answer them so everyone can see the answers.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> I am attaching the webinar presentation I gave earlier today to dealers and calibrators. I believe it will help everyone working with the Radiance Pro understand setup and calibration better. Normally I prefer questions be sent to support @ lumagen.com, but for questions on the webinar presentation it might be best to post them here and I can try to answer them so everyone can see the answers.


That's an excellent resource Jim, thanks for adding it to the forum. A couple of points that struck me:



> Lumagen is considering a 129 point 1D LUT mode to control points closer to Black for HDR sources


I think this would be an excellent move to give greater accuracy to calibrating the brightness range of HDR - I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for SDR either.

Will you be considering an increase to the size of 3D LUT's also?

*Intensity Mapping:*

Its reassuring to see that your guidance matches my own experience on preferred settings for IM. I've pretty much settled on Ratio=0, Shape=3, and Gamma and Black the same for all sources. The only setting that seems to need to be varied for different mastering levels (mastering level as in the hard clip point that your algorithm selects for any combination of Max CLL and ScrMax) of content is Transition.

With this in mind, given that it seems to be only Transition that changes significantly with varying content (i.e between the two sets of IM settings) and that a lower Transition seems to be required for lower mastering levels, and a higher Transition for higher mastering levels, would it not be possible to have the IM algorithms scale Transition automatically depending on the calculated mastering levels, with the user only setting an 'overall' Transition level to suit their display peak brightness capabilities?

That way we could dispense with the hard crossover point, and two sets of IM settings, and have a single set of settings for any one input memory. It would then mean we achieve a more refined and scaled Transition parameter varying with source material, and avoid situations where content that falls close to either side of the crossover have widely different transition settings.

*HDR10+*

I'm pleased to see you are looking to add support for HDR10+ and HLG.

I know we have half joked about this in the past, but given your comments on issues dealing with sources that have no metadata, and combined with the numerous instances of material having incorrect metadata (think Kaleidescape Strato), what is the likelihood of you implementing a Lumagen version of dynamic metadata where the Pro reads ahead one frame to assess MaxCLL internally and adjusts IM dynamically on a frame by frame basis. This would seem to give the added benefit that dynamic metadata brings over static metadata, whilst also removing reliance on absent or potentially incorrect metadata from the source? 

*HDR Games*

In your briefing you recommend setting Max Default for HDR games to 10,000. Personally, I have found that although many games have content all the way up to 10,000nits, they also have much more in lower ranges (2500-4000 nits). Certainly on a projector set-up where we have no where near the available peak brightness of say a flat panel, setting Max Default to 10,000 seems to compress much of the 2500-4000 nit highlights.

On my set-up where I get around 170nits peak, I have settled on a Max Default for games of 6000nits. Whilst this obviously hard clips highlights above that value, the affect on image quality is negligible as those highlights are generally very small, and the added benefit of greater delineation of highlights in the lower ranges seems to be worth the trade off, for me.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 112617*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 112617*
Fix for sometimes not detecting a source on 18Ghz inputs when switching to them. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> To clear up some questions:
> 
> The Radiance Pro has separate calibrations for SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1) sources at defaults. You can have up to four calibrations for each since there are eight CMS memories.
> 
> Our recommendation is to use the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping to "output HDR in a SDR container." In this case you actually calibrate for HDR source in "SDR Rec 2020" space.
> 
> Calman cannot do a true HDR 3D LUT in the Pro at this time. This may change. It can do the "SDR2020" mode calibration we recommend for viewing HDR source in a SDR container using the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Lightspace can do a true HDR 3D LUT calibration with the Pro. However, this is not our recommended method.
> 
> Tom at Chromapure is working on 3D LUT calibration for the Radiance Pro for HDR sources, but I think they will first do the "SDR 2020" calibration we recommend for HDR sources.
> 
> The problem with an single LUT approach to HDR is it is "one size fit all" and there is a large variance in HDR sources. The Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping dynamically changes the transfer function based on the HDR Info Frame data. So it adapts the transfer function differently for lower light movies (e.g. The Great Gatsby) verses higher light movies (e.g. Mad Max Fury Road) based on the HDR Info Frame and user settings for the HDR Intensity Mapping.
> 
> The feedback we are getting is that the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping, and optionally 3D LUT SDR2020 calibration, does HDR10 Tone Mapping better than any TV or projector at this time.
> 
> ================
> 
> I am attaching the webinar presentation I gave earlier today to dealers and calibrators. I believe it will help everyone working with the Radiance Pro understand setup and calibration better. Normally I prefer questions be sent to support @ lumagen.com, but for questions on the webinar presentation it might be best to post them here and I can try to answer them so everyone can see the answers.


Hi Jim,

Yesterday done 3D Lut SDR2020 via LightSpace, I have already emailed you about a potential bug, but would like to share with others as they might experience the same.
I find that after uploading 3D Lut into CMS bank LumagenPro, in my case it is 15^3 3D Lut, after LUT is uploaded and Tone Mapping is enabled, I experience very slow response from Lumagen on any remote control actions, i.e. the feeling that Lumagens workload is increased significantly (doing the tone mapping? ), however there are no freezes during the image playback, its the problem with remote control to any button I press Lumagen doesn't respond, so I have to click 5 times one button until Lumagen responds to that action and display the menu. 
If I do factory reset, everything works as usual. I have installed Beta 112617 firmware for LumagenPro, mine is 4444 with 9Ghz input and output modules. 
I also notice once 3d Lut is uploaded, Lumagen more often switches FAN to maximum speed and makes noise, I assume it tries to cool it down more often.

Thank you,

Regards,

Sergejs K.


----------



## Mike_WI

Request.
Instead of saying "I have latest firmware" say I have firmware Beta XXYYZZ.
That way we know if you actually have the latest firmware when reading in real time and anyone searching thread understands what "latest" means.

Mike


----------



## mskreis

Jim, the webinar presentation was very useful. You suggest a factory reset after firmware updates, which I have not routinely performed in the past. To save our current settings and calibrations I assume we can save the configuration with the utility program, update the firmware and perform a factory reset, and restore our configuration. Correct?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

I’m not sure that is needed. However, the audience included calibrators. Best to always go back to a factory reset as that eliminates anything the owner may have done to the unit. SJ


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Really haven't gotten that far - just discovered this in the past 24 hours and haven't spend much time in the theater...plus TBH, I've been pretty dismayed by the recent firmware issues, and have slowed down the bleeding edge attitude toward investigating issues...


You've probably already done this, but just another thought in case you haven't - having installed my ATV 4K last night, and updated to the latest 11.2 FW, you can now select an option in the ATV to match the frame rate and the Dynamic range of the source material you're playing. It causes loads of resyncs if you're switching around between various clips ofcourse, but it should mean it reverts to the correct dynamic range, colour space and refresh rate, and hence cure your issue.


----------



## dlinsley

LJG said:


> Wondering if anyone else out there with a Roku 4K ultra is having the same issues I experience with the Pro in the chain. Netflix automatically defaults to rec2020 colorspace even when the source is 709. If I connect the Roku direct rec 709 is shown correctly for the 709 sources.


I'm on the 110318 firmware still, and noticed this issue last night - the Xfinity (Comcast) app was output as SDR2020.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Wookii said:


> You've probably already done this, but just another thought in case you haven't - having installed my ATV 4K last night, and updated to the latest 11.2 FW, you can now select an option in the ATV to match the frame rate and the Dynamic range of the source material you're playing. It causes loads of resyncs if you're switching around between various clips ofcourse, but it should mean it reverts to the correct dynamic range, colour space and refresh rate, and hence cure your issue.


Slightly Off topic:

This is going to sound strange if not blasphemous, but I have recently found that playing 24p content at 60p is preferable. I don't see any 3:2 pulldown artifacts but do see less judder (which otherwise can drive me nuts). Playing back at 60p doesn't produce any soap-opera effect and seems to work well. Am I missing something? Should any 24p->60p artifacts be more noticeable?


----------



## uderman

Ash Sharma said:


> Uderman,
> With TIVO for example VUDU - do you get UHD movies from TOVO Bolt 4K?
> Can you get both the HDR and DV Version using the Lumagen?
> Also, can you split Dolby VUDU ATMOS to your receiver?
> I have been avoiding getting a Lumagen Pro for my HT with a projector and I will be upgrading by Circa 2013 TIVO Roamio and Mini's to 4K VOX boxes and this usability will be very useful for the HT and whole house distribution.


I do not own TiVo Bolt boxes however for a good reason. TiVo bolt and none of the other TiVo boxes support any form HDR at the moment. TiVo Bolt, Bolt+ Bolt Vox can do Netflix and YouTube in 4k however no HDR or Dolby Vision. TiVo customer support claims Bolt/Bolt+/Vox are HDR capable in terms of hardware however streaming apps do not include the software support for HDR yet. TiVo have been advertising HDR as coming soon since 2016 but so far nada. Keep in mind that streaming providers such as Vudu, Netflix and such write the code for their TiVo SO TiVo has to wait for these providers to update their apps. Historically TiVo get these apps relatively late comparing to other streaming boxes, often times years late. 

As for the Radiance Pro, it does not support Dolby Vision in any form. When (if) Tivo starts supporting Dolby Vision, you won't be able to pass it through Lumagen Radiance Pro. This is subject to change but seems very unlikely due to lack of interest from Dolby for supporting any Video Processors.

I recommend sticking to your Roamio for cable tv and use a different streamer such as Apple TV 4K or Roku for 4K streaming apps.


----------



## uderman

Surfdrifter said:


> I just bought an OLED few days ago, and try to see, what it can be done with Lumagen to tell you the truth. I have Calman, which in theory calibrates HDR, but haven't tried it yet and I'm pretty sure it will not use Lumagen.
> 
> I think it's also a good idea to ask your calibrator about your options


I have the Sony A1E and Calman as well. Calman does not work well for HDR calibration. It technically has auto cal for 1D but Sony's tone mapping counters it every time it makes changes. From everything I read (also applies to LG OLEDs as well) it is best to do your best to calibrate for SDR on the display's available settings. I was able to get DeltaE well under 1, MaxDelta of 1 and color checker error under 3 with the two point and 9 point on the Sony. Sony doesn't offer color management system(LG does) but I was satisfied with the results without a cms. Sony OLED takes these SDR calibration values, applies an internal calculation and finds the best interpretation for HDR. In other words, if you get SDR calibration good, HDR should be very good too. 

With the Radiance Pro, I could further improve SDR with the 3D Lut auto cal. I made several attempts at going at HDR with the Radiance pro but at the end I gave up. My Sony OLED had a 720nit peak in HDR mode and this went down to around 300 in SDR. Jim recommends HDR2020 -> SDR2020. If I do this, I lose more than half the peak brightness. So I had no choice and keep it HDR2020 -> HDR2020. In this scheme, Calman does not offer 3D Lut and their 1D Lut messed up the video. I decided to keep CMS1 untouched (aka pass through). I experimented with the intensity mapping for a few days but settled on having this disabled. So in short, my radiance pro is a pass through device for 4K sources. At least for now. 

I haven't been reading the A1E forums in the past couple months. There might be some new discoveries such as disabling tone mapping So things can change in the future.


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> That's an excellent resource Jim, thanks for adding it to the forum. A couple of points that struck me:
> 
> I think this would be an excellent move to give greater accuracy to calibrating the brightness range of HDR - I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for SDR either.
> 
> Will you be considering an increase to the size of 3D LUT's also?
> 
> *Intensity Mapping:*
> 
> Its reassuring to see that your guidance matches my own experience on preferred settings for IM. I've pretty much settled on Ratio=0, Shape=3, and Gamma and Black the same for all sources. The only setting that seems to need to be varied for different mastering levels (mastering level as in the hard clip point that your algorithm selects for any combination of Max CLL and ScrMax) of content is Transition.
> 
> With this in mind, given that it seems to be only Transition that changes significantly with varying content (i.e between the two sets of IM settings) and that a lower Transition seems to be required for lower mastering levels, and a higher Transition for higher mastering levels, would it not be possible to have the IM algorithms scale Transition automatically depending on the calculated mastering levels, with the user only setting an 'overall' Transition level to suit their display peak brightness capabilities?
> 
> That way we could dispense with the hard crossover point, and two sets of IM settings, and have a single set of settings for any one input memory. It would then mean we achieve a more refined and scaled Transition parameter varying with source material, and avoid situations where content that falls close to either side of the crossover have widely different transition settings.
> 
> *HDR10+*
> 
> I'm pleased to see you are looking to add support for HDR10+ and HLG.
> 
> I know we have half joked about this in the past, but given your comments on issues dealing with sources that have no metadata, and combined with the numerous instances of material having incorrect metadata (think Kaleidescape Strato), what is the likelihood of you implementing a Lumagen version of dynamic metadata where the Pro reads ahead one frame to assess MaxCLL internally and adjusts IM dynamically on a frame by frame basis. This would seem to give the added benefit that dynamic metadata brings over static metadata, whilst also removing reliance on absent or potentially incorrect metadata from the source?
> 
> *HDR Games*
> 
> In your briefing you recommend setting Max Default for HDR games to 10,000. Personally, I have found that although many games have content all the way up to 10,000nits, they also have much more in lower ranges (2500-4000 nits). Certainly on a projector set-up where we have no where near the available peak brightness of say a flat panel, setting Max Default to 10,000 seems to compress much of the 2500-4000 nit highlights.
> 
> On my set-up where I get around 170nits peak, I have settled on a Max Default for games of 6000nits. Whilst this obviously hard clips highlights above that value, the affect on image quality is negligible as those highlights are generally very small, and the added benefit of greater delineation of highlights in the lower ranges seems to be worth the trade off, for me.


I forgot to update the webinar slides with the fact we now plan for the new 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT to have 257 points. I gave Light Illusion the choice of 129 and 257 and they picked 257. We are in agreement (I believe) that there is no practical reason to have this new 1D LUT be larger than 257 points. In addition, Light Illusion said the current 21-point 1D LUT is fine as it stands for them since it is used for the initial pass of grayscale with the 3D LUT, and the new 257 point 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT will be used to fine tune the grayscale and Gamma.

A note on Transition. For >2500 nit MaxCLL we recommend a setting of 10. However, one video expert (I will let him identify himself so as to not pull him info having to comment unless he wants to) found that with his JVC 4500 he could make the change for >2500 nit sources from Display Max Light = 500, Transition = 10, Shape = 3, to Display Max Light = 100, Transition = 10, Shape = 6 (might have been 5) and it actually improved the image in the darkest portion of the scene while keeping the mid intensity and highlights just as high quality. This is excellent feedback, and may change our recommendations going forward if others find this to be true for their systems. This is something you should try if you are so inclined.

We have no current plans to increase the size of the 3D LUT. Never say never, but we would not even consider this until we have pretty much everything else implemented to make sure we have enough room in the FPGA. While we believe the proposed 257 point 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT will improve the user perception of the image, we are not as convinced that going from a 17x17x17 point to a 65x65x65 point 3D LUT will provide a significantly improved calibration, especially for a well designed (i.e. reasonably linear response) projector/TV.

We hope to add our own dynamic MaxCLL calculation and dynamic adaptation to this data in the Pro. You may be interested in the "debug tool" MaxCLL and Max-Linear-Y profile tool now built into the Pro as an investigative tool for this effort. You can enter MENU 0532, select Profile, and start the profile tool. It has a timer so you can capture a specific amount of time (in minutes) from the HDR source. It does not respond until the set minimum pixel count (Filt) is reached. To compute the data, intensities are grouped into region buckets. These two features make the reported MaxCLL somewhat different than the official MaxCLL calculation, but also makes the information more useful to us. For example, we do not believe the the transfer function should be perturbed because a single pixels has a value much higher than all other pixels which the HDR MaxCLL would do as it is defined. I change the filter size, and then back, to restart the profile.

NOTE: The MENU 0532 command reduces the image quality slightly since it hijacks a portion of the logic to do the profile.

NOTE: The Menu 0532 command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame.

We find it interesting that MaxCLL and Max-Linear-Y (Luma) usually end up at about the same value. Also, due to how we calculate MaxCLL, expect our number to be slightly less than a correctly reported MaxCLL from the source.

As a debug feature you can temporarily override the HDR Info Frame MaxCLL using the MENU 0533 debug command. Change "Auto" to "Off" and set the MaxCLL you want to test for the source. You can then toggle "Auto" from on to off and back to see if the image changes. This is interesting for a source device that incorrectly reports MaxCLL.

If we do add Dynamic MaxCLL calculation to get our own version of Dynamic Metadata, we would certainly interpolate between the 2500 nit HDR Parameters since it might not look good to jump from one set to the other. Instead we would weight each set of parameters based on the calculated MaxCLL. We are considering this even with the current Static Meta Data approach as it makes sense.

Thanks for your feedback on games for the "Default Max" for sources not reporting info in the HDR Info Frame. I do not have any personal experience with these games and so feedback from those who do is much appreciated.


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Yesterday done 3D Lut SDR2020 via LightSpace, I have already emailed you about a potential bug, but would like to share with others as they might experience the same.
> I find that after uploading 3D Lut into CMS bank LumagenPro, in my case it is 15^3 3D Lut, after LUT is uploaded and Tone Mapping is enabled, I experience very slow response from Lumagen on any remote control actions, i.e. the feeling that Lumagens workload is increased significantly (doing the tone mapping? ), however there are no freezes during the image playback, its the problem with remote control to any button I press Lumagen doesn't respond, so I have to click 5 times one button until Lumagen responds to that action and display the menu.
> If I do factory reset, everything works as usual. I have installed Beta 112617 firmware for LumagenPro, mine is 4444 with 9Ghz input and output modules.
> I also notice once 3d Lut is uploaded, Lumagen more often switches FAN to maximum speed and makes noise, I assume it tries to cool it down more often.


The HDR Intensity Mapping does not affect the microprocessor processing (with current "Static Metadata"). So it would not affect the IR responsiveness.

The only thing we have seen that causes IR command issues such as you mention is a marginal HDMI connection that causes an I/O chip to generate an excessive number of interrupts. In the last few releases we have added code to detect these and restart the overactive I/O chip to get it back on track. 

Please make sure you have the latest release loaded. If you do have the latest and you see issues with the IR commands, let us know by emailing Lumagen support. We would need as much information as you can provide. However, if this is the case, you would likely need to upgrade your HDMI cable or cables. Whether the cable is to blame or not it is the one degree of freedom you have to get a solid connection which in turn would eliminate the excessive interrupts from the I/O chip and restore the IR remote responsiveness.


----------



## jrp

mskreis said:


> Jim, the webinar presentation was very useful. You suggest a factory reset after firmware updates, which I have not routinely performed in the past. To save our current settings and calibrations I assume we can save the configuration with the utility program, update the firmware and perform a factory reset, and restore our configuration. Correct?


Perhaps I was not clear. What I suggested was a Factory Reset before calibrating. This is not required though.

I recommend against a factory reset after an update unless the update somehow corrupted your configuration (unlikely but we have had some issues with this on a very rare occasion where an update goes wrong or a change in the configuration data-structure caused an issues with a specific set of configuration settings).

I do recommend using our Config Reader on our support page to download your configuration and save it to a file as a backup. That way if an update, or anything else (e.g. someone playing with the remote which has happened), corrupts your configuration you can restore it using the Config reader program.


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> Slightly Off topic:
> 
> This is going to sound strange if not blasphemous, but I have recently found that playing 24p content at 60p is preferable. I don't see any 3:2 pulldown artifacts but do see less judder (which otherwise can drive me nuts). Playing back at 60p doesn't produce any soap-opera effect and seems to work well. Am I missing something? Should any 24p->60p artifacts be more noticeable?


I feel this is a personal decision. Not everyone is sensitive to the motion judder caused by playing 24p movies at 60p. For most people it has to be a really slow moving horizontal pan before they notice the judder this causes. Also if you are not trying to see the judder your brain tries to smooth the motion (with varying degrees of success).

We have a reasonable percentage of customers running with a fixed 4k59.94 output rate even for 24p content - especially those with long or intermittent lock-on to a signal change in their TV/projector.

Playing 24p at 60p is not like "frame interpolation" which does cause the "soap opera" effect, and creates artifacts. Playing 24p at 60p shows each frame for either a slightly longer time, or a slightly shorter time, than output of 24p at 24p. It does not try to create new information and so - other than the judder - you see the same images that you would see at 24p.


----------



## Mark_H

Ian_Currie said:


> Slightly Off topic:
> 
> This is going to sound strange if not blasphemous, but I have recently found that playing 24p content at 60p is preferable.


It sounds like a cry for help...


----------



## Ian_Currie

Mark_H said:


> It sounds like a cry for help...


No, just enlightenment and/or reassurance.


----------



## AidenL

Wookii said:


> The RuiPro fibre cables seem to be the most stable 'single cable' option currently. Mine worked for me where a Celerity version would not.
> 
> That said I expect we'll see 48G+ cables coming out in the next 6-12 months, so it might be worth holding off if you can wait.
> 
> https://www.cepro.com/article/fibbr_fiber_optical_hdmi_cables_cedia


I have a misbehaving Celerity cable also. Going to try Ruipro also I think.


----------



## Surfdrifter

AidenL said:


> I have a misbehaving Celerity cable also. Going to try Ruipro also I think.


 I talked to Fibbr about their 56 GBps cables and they told me the production line is not ready yet and they will let me know. I ordered a Fibbr Ultra Pro 2.0 15m HDMI cable in the meantime to see how it works. I would assume that it would work like Ruipro. I'll let you know.

I'm going to try it with 18gbps modules and 9Gbps modules, on my JVC and my LG OLED


----------



## scrowe

AidenL said:


> I have a misbehaving Celerity cable also. Going to try Ruipro also I think.


I had an issue with mine and I have to say the service I received to resolve the issue was excellent, especially being in the UK. I had imported a Monoprice as a replacement, but am back with Celerity again, and Monoprice as the backup.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk


----------



## xchap2001

Hello . Have anyone had a problem with Nvidia shield tv and the radiance pro.... shut off intermittently when is on the switching worked once then it doesn't show up again.. 18ghz input on the pro...and 18ghz output the cable is audio quest ocean 4k hdr 4ft... when going straight to the soundbar sony nt5 works flawless --that's from shield to soundbar to tv works every time... from shield to radiance pro only worked for serval minutes then shuts off then it wont come on again no picture.......


----------



## Roland Janus

xchap2001 said:


> Hello . Have anyone had a problem with Nvidia shield tv and the radiance pro.... shut off intermittently when is on the switching worked once then it doesn't show up again.. 18ghz input on the pro...and 18ghz output the cable is audio quest ocean 4k hdr 4ft... when going straight to the soundbar sony nt5 works flawless --that's from shield to soundbar to tv works every time... from shield to radiance pro only worked for serval minutes then shuts off then it wont come on again no picture.......


I have about the same config, didn't notice anything like that

-roland


----------



## xchap2001

Hum really something going on .. i just tried to watch pacific rim on my Strato and the pic goes off/on intermittent unwatchable  I'm on the new FW Beta 112617 switching from source is also slow ...sometimes it works ok then sometimes it doesn't......


----------



## sjschaff

xchap2001 said:


> Hum really something going on .. i just tried to watch pacific rim on my Strato and the pic goes off/on intermittent unwatchable  I'm on the new FW Beta 112617 switching from source is also slow ...sometimes it works ok then sometimes it doesn't......


Similar experiences with this latest beta using Tivo Roamio and Win10 HTPC inputs. Went back to prior beta with no issues. 
Just to clarify my Radiance Pro does NOT have the 18Ghtz input or output cards installed.


----------



## xtrips

Hello,

I have 2 4k sources:
- eGreat A5
- Oppo 203

Both connected, since yesterday, to a Anthem AVM60 pre-pro.
For both I get SDR-709 instead of Rec.2020 for 4K Rec,2020 HDR medias.
I see that in the Radiance info menu, and of course on the screen.
So Rec.2020 and HDR are not triggering the Radiance.
Any well known issues with the AVM60?

Thanks


----------



## howieshel

AidenL said:


> I have a misbehaving Celerity cable also. Going to try Ruipro also I think.


Try calling them and get the newer HDMI Ends, if you have the older or initial connectors some didn't handle noise well, the newer ones are suppose to help.


----------



## AidenL

Surfdrifter said:


> I talked to Fibbr about their 56 GBps cables and they told me the production line is not ready yet and they will let me know. I ordered a Fibbr Ultra Pro 2.0 15m HDMI cable in the meantime to see how it works. I would assume that it would work like Ruipro. I'll let you know.
> 
> I'm going to try it with 18gbps modules and 9Gbps modules, on my JVC and my LG OLED





scrowe said:


> I had an issue with mine and I have to say the service I received to resolve the issue was excellent, especially being in the UK. I had imported a Monoprice as a replacement, but am back with Celerity again, and Monoprice as the backup.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk


Im waiting on Joe Fernand in The Media Factory to come back to me after he speaks to Celerity in the US. 



howieshel said:


> Try calling them and get the newer HDMI Ends, if you have the older or initial connectors some didn't handle noise well, the newer ones are suppose to help.


I just got them, but it didn't make a difference unfortunately, seems Im going to have to take out the Celerity and replace it.


----------



## Surfdrifter

xtrips said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have 2 4k sources:
> - eGreat A5
> - Oppo 203
> 
> Both connected, since yesterday, to a Anthem AVM60 pre-pro.
> For both I get SDR-709 instead of Rec.2020 for 4K Rec,2020 HDR medias.
> I see that in the Radiance info menu, and of course on the screen.
> So Rec.2020 and HDR are not triggering the Radiance.
> Any well known issues with the AVM60?
> 
> Thanks


I assume your chain is 4K sources>>>Anthem>>>Lumagen Pro>>> TV/PJ. when you press OK on lumagen's remote, what do you see at the INPUT? A 1080p, SDR709 signal, or a 2160p, SDR709 signal?

I don't have egreat, but I have Oppo. When I had this issue, I longpressed info, while playing a UHD/HDR video and scrolled down to see what Oppo was outputting. If it outputs what you desire (i.e. UHD/HDR) then move to the next device on your chain. Check the settings to see if it downconverts the signal. My Yamaha has two modes for 4K. Mode 1 & Mode 2. Check if there is something similar.

Other than that, check on lumagen that your INPUT HDMI settings support HDCP 2.2 and/or 18GBPS on Styles settings.

Hope it helps


----------



## darrellh44

I currently have a 4240 and a Panny UB-900. I'm thinking about getting an OPPO 203 (with the JVB mods) to replace the Panny for audio improvements. Since the 4240 does most of the video processing, will I be losing any UHD video performance if I switch to the OPPO?

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## Mark_H

darrellh44 said:


> I currently have a 4240 and a Panny UB-900. I'm thinking about getting an OPPO 203 (with the JVB mods) to replace the Panny for audio improvements. Since the 4240 does most of the video processing, will I be losing any UHD video performance if I switch to the OPPO?
> 
> Thanks,
> Darrell


You may need an 18Ghz input card with the Oppo. While I was on 9Ghz I couldn't get stable HDR from it. Switching to the 18Ghz input was the only solution that worked.


----------



## Kris Deering

xtrips said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have 2 4k sources:
> - eGreat A5
> - Oppo 203
> 
> Both connected, since yesterday, to a Anthem AVM60 pre-pro.
> For both I get SDR-709 instead of Rec.2020 for 4K Rec,2020 HDR medias.
> I see that in the Radiance info menu, and of course on the screen.
> So Rec.2020 and HDR are not triggering the Radiance.
> Any well known issues with the AVM60?
> 
> Thanks



I have an Oppo 205 going through my AVM60 to the Pro with zero issues. Same if I used the Panasonic 900.


----------



## darrellh44

darrellh44 said:


> I currently have a 4240 and a Panny UB-900. I'm thinking about getting an OPPO 203 (with the JVB mods) to replace the Panny for audio improvements. Since the 4240 does most of the video processing, will I be losing any UHD video performance if I switch to the OPPO?





Mark_H said:


> You may need an 18Ghz input card with the Oppo. While I was on 9Ghz I couldn't get stable HDR from it. Switching to the 18Ghz input was the only solution that worked.





Kris Deering said:


> I have an Oppo 205 going through my AVM60 to the Pro with zero issues. Same if I used the Panasonic 900.


I have an 18G input on my 4240. So with that you're saying there won't be any difference in the final UHD result whether I use the UB-900 or OPPO 203/205? I know on some of the non-UHD projector threads (I have an LS10000), the general consensus is the UB-900 puts out a better mapped UHD signal (if that's the right terminology) than the OPPOs. But for most posters, that may have been in reference to using an HDFury device and it's limited mapping capabilities to get a UHD source into a standard HD projector while preserving as much of the HDR/P3 feature enhancements as possible. I'm hoping that with the 4240, it won't matter which UHD player is used.


----------



## dlinsley

xtrips said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have 2 4k sources:
> - eGreat A5
> - Oppo 203
> 
> Both connected, since yesterday, to a Anthem AVM60 pre-pro.
> For both I get SDR-709 instead of Rec.2020 for 4K Rec,2020 HDR medias.
> I see that in the Radiance info menu, and of course on the screen.
> So Rec.2020 and HDR are not triggering the Radiance.
> Any well known issues with the AVM60?
> 
> Thanks


Have you checked the Global menu to ensure HDR is enabled? No issue here with my Anthem 1120 or the 520 I had on loan for a few weeks while my 1120 was away. I use an Oppo 203 and Roku Ultra, though both with 18G input cards.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

darrellh44 said:


> I currently have a 4240 and a Panny UB-900. I'm thinking about getting an OPPO 203 (with the JVB mods) to replace the Panny for audio improvements. Since the 4240 does most of the video processing, will I be losing any UHD video performance if I switch to the OPPO?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Darrell




Its vica versa OPPO UDP203 is better in HDR then your panny


----------



## LJG

Directv is now passing HDR/HLG on 104 and 106, it’s showing in Radiance as SDR2020, is the Lumagen capable of passing HLG? Radiance appears to not be reading this as hdr.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 120417*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 120417*
The change in 112417 for allowing audio turnoff of individual 18Ghz outputs exposed a bug in hdmi chip fw from manufacturer that would prevent some audio formats from working on one of the 18Ghz cards 2 outputs if the other was disabled for audio. 
So audio output enable for 18Ghz outputs are now paired (.ie 1 with 2, etc) in the output setup menu. 
Improved some of the switching changes in 112417-112617 to work better for some sources such as Roku Ultra. 
Added a new genlock mode which is more accurate with less jitter than was the case previously. 
The new genlock mode is labeled "normal" and the previous genlock mode is labled "fast" as it can be faster in some cases if the display handles the jitter. 
The "normal" genlock mode is usually the better choice and is the default. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Surfdrifter

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 120417*
> The change in 112417 for allowing audio turnoff of individual 18Ghz outputs exposed a bug in hdmi chip fw from manufacturer that would prevent some audio formats from working on one of the 18Ghz cards 2 outputs if the other was disabled for audio.
> So audio output enable for 18Ghz outputs are now paired (.ie 1 with 2, etc) in the output setup menu.
> Improved some of the switching changes in 112417-112617 to work better for some sources such as Roku Ultra.
> Added a new genlock mode which is more accurate with less jitter than was the case previously.
> The new genlock mode is labeled "normal" and the previous genlock mode is labled "fast" as it can be faster in some cases if the display handles the jitter.
> The "normal" genlock mode is usually the better choice and is the default.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I think it would be better, the manufacturer of these expensive modules, to fix this. Sending video to TV and audio to AVR from the other output, needs to have audio muted to TV.

Oh, and I had a very fast check last night with Fibbr 15m (50ft) HDMI AOC. I simply enabled Auto-18ghZ, while playing Assassin's Creed Origins (which is HDR) and I couldn't lock at all at full RGB HDR 4K 60hz. Then I connected the cable to the HDMI 1 out of my Yamaha AVR rX-a3050 and I had a stable connection, at least for an hour that I played...

I'm going to try again and note my steps, but I'm getting tired of trying to make the processor work. I would rather enjoy playing/watching movies, rather than troubleshooting/debugging all the time.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> To clear up some questions:
> 
> The Radiance Pro has separate calibrations for SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1) sources at defaults. You can have up to four calibrations for each since there are eight CMS memories.
> 
> Our recommendation is to use the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping to "output HDR in a SDR container." In this case you actually calibrate for HDR source in "SDR Rec 2020" space.
> 
> Calman cannot do a true HDR 3D LUT in the Pro at this time. This may change. It can do the "SDR2020" mode calibration we recommend for viewing HDR source in a SDR container using the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Lightspace can do a true HDR 3D LUT calibration with the Pro. However, this is not our recommended method.
> 
> Tom at Chromapure is working on 3D LUT calibration for the Radiance Pro for HDR sources, but I think they will first do the "SDR 2020" calibration we recommend for HDR sources.
> 
> The problem with an single LUT approach to HDR is it is "one size fit all" and there is a large variance in HDR sources. The Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping dynamically changes the transfer function based on the HDR Info Frame data. So it adapts the transfer function differently for lower light movies (e.g. The Great Gatsby) verses higher light movies (e.g. Mad Max Fury Road) based on the HDR Info Frame and user settings for the HDR Intensity Mapping.
> 
> The feedback we are getting is that the Radiance Pro HDR Intensity Mapping, and optionally 3D LUT SDR2020 calibration, does HDR10 Tone Mapping better than any TV or projector at this time.
> 
> ================
> 
> I am attaching the webinar presentation I gave earlier today to dealers and calibrators. I believe it will help everyone working with the Radiance Pro understand setup and calibration better. Normally I prefer questions be sent to support @ lumagen.com, but for questions on the webinar presentation it might be best to post them here and I can try to answer them so everyone can see the answers.


Two quotes from the PDF:
"
Set CMS0 and CMS1 to the same “Colorspace”
(either SDR2020 or SDR709) and do 3D LUT
calibration for both.

Calibrate Rec 709 as normal (CMS0). Set CMS0
Colorspace = SDR709 (Note: You can use Colorspace =
SDR2020 and still create a Rec 709 3D LUT)
"

Why or when would both CMS be set to 2020?
Is this just HDR related?

I always thought CMS0 is always 709, while CMS1 is 2020 to cover both colorspaces depending on source signal.

Does this mean I could use 2020 for both?
I'll ask because I have a Shield TV, which currenty can't autoswitch colorspaces, so when reading that I thought I could always set it to use 2020 and let the Pro deal with it.
Does that make any sense? 

-R


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 120617*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 120617*
Fix for 18Ghz input ports on same card not always detecting input. 
Fix for moving output cable from one 18Ghz output card to another and not getting correct output mode. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## msleb

A quick shout out once again to Jim and Patrick at Lumagen- I had a small bug that was particular to my setup. I use physical inputs on HDMI 1-3 for my most important 4K HDR sources, and I use virtual inputs for a few other sources that all run through my Anthem AVR and from Anthem into the Radiance Pro physical HDMI input 4. 

I used a macro to power cycle the Radiance Pro to address occasional handshake issues (On-->standby--> On) but found that the RP would not always revert back to the same input, which made my power cycle workaround less than ideal. I finally figured that power cycling worked fine on physical inputs 1, 2, and 3, but any of my virtual inputs (4, 6, 7) always reverted back to input 4. It occurred to me that the RP wasn't seeing the virtual input when going into standby, and was only seeing the physical input (in other words, virtual input 7 on the RP was still physically attached to HDMI input 4 on the RP).

Once this light bulb went off over my head I sent my experience in to Jim and Patrick, and had a customized Beta version sent to me to trial. The entire turnaround time couldnt have been more than 3 hours. And the fix works, so, while I might be the only user that cares about this particular issue, I would expect it to be incorporated into future beta versions.

Thanks again for amazing customer oriented service!


----------



## msleb

Help with HDR Intensity Mapping Settings requested, especially for those using the RP with a Sony 5000ES and a screen gain of near 1.0.

While I recognize each set up/ambient light/lens throw etc all vary and all impact optimal settings, I am hoping I can get some feedback for best starting points for me to then tweak. There has been a lot of back and forth, and at one point I remember Jim posted some suggested starting points (which I can't seem to find with search function.) 

At some point I had it dialed in pretty well, but I lost those settings in a defaults restore at some point. Luckily, I did have a backup configuration that was done after Ken W calibrated for me, so I was able to restore that, but my HDR IM settings were lost.

So: Any suggested starting points for the various parameters for 2000 sources?
What is everyone using for:

Ratio
Shape
Transition
Gamma
Black

Thanks


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Directv is now passing HDR/HLG on 104 and 106, it’s showing in Radiance as SDR2020, is the Lumagen capable of passing HLG? Radiance appears to not be reading this as hdr.


I have noticed this as well.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Beta 120617 working*

I finally waited after some travel and more FW updates posted to update.
I had troubles with the FW Beta 110817.
I updated last night to the Beta 120617 and a short check on content from 2 inputs seemed okay.
I briefly played around in the menu (eg Genlock and video delay for lip syncing), but didn't do to much source switching to check on speed.
Glad to be back on the latest FW.
My equipment list is in signature.

Mike



Mike_WI said:


> So, after noting the new FW Beta 110817, I should have waited.
> However, I loaded FW before family was going to watch a show in the home theater.
> Uploaded successfully as per usual routine.
> I then waited minutes for the "50 seconds" on first power on.
> Then nothing. I can't get menu screen up or any inputs to work.
> Any ideas?
> 
> I have tried forcing a HDMI handshake by removing and plugging back in the projector HDMI.
> I tried to install prior FW, but now computer doesn't see Lumagen.
> I have down a few "off" and standby to on cycles.
> It is in a rack that I have to crawl behind to physically unplug/plug.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> *EDIT*
> Update on FW...
> 
> *Beta 110817*
> *Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
> Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update).
> Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary.
> Small improvement in output mode transitions.
> Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware





Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> Pic enclosed of area behind bookshelves and HT MA rack in middle surrounded by fiberglass.
> It's hard to get to, so I left rack of gear on overnight (projector off) with laptop connected.
> I returned to it this morning and was able to upload old Beta 110317 FW.
> After that and waiting for reboot, everything worked.
> I'm going on vacation so won't tempt the new FW update until I return.
> Will watch forum to see if just a fluke or if anyone else has issues.
> 
> Mike





Mike_WI said:


> Great. Glad to know not a systemic issue. Not sure what happened to me.
> Will update in a week.
> Thanks.
> Mike
> 
> 
> *EDIT*
> Update on FW...
> 
> *Beta 110817*
> *Avoid using this update. Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware. Will be replaced soon. *
> Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update).
> Fixed up problem in revision 110317 that caused restarting/blanking hdmi output on memory changes that was not necessary.
> Small improvement in output mode transitions.
> Added left/right eye option in menu under *Output: 3D Options*.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## David Johannesen

msleb said:


> Help with HDR Intensity Mapping Settings requested, especially for those using the RP with a Sony 5000ES and a screen gain of near 1.0.
> 
> ...
> 
> So: Any suggested starting points for the various parameters for 2000 sources?
> What is everyone using for:
> 
> Ratio
> Shape
> Transition
> Gamma
> Black
> 
> Thanks


Yeah, I’m interested as well. I have a Sony 385, a Radiance Pro with 18gb cards, and did an initial calibration in Spectracal.

Watching scenes in Kingsman: The Golden Circle off of an HDR disk in an opportunity 203 I was getting a lot of clipping on highlights (oranges, flames, gold lettering), portions of the highlights would look posterized.


----------



## loggeo

jrp said:


> I forgot to update the webinar slides with the fact we now plan for the new 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT to have 257 points. I gave Light Illusion the choice of 129 and 257 and they picked 257. We are in agreement (I believe) that there is no practical reason to have this new 1D LUT be larger than 257 points. In addition, Light Illusion said the current 21-point 1D LUT is fine as it stands for them since it is used for the initial pass of grayscale with the 3D LUT, and the new 257 point 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT will be used to fine tune the grayscale and Gamma.


Jim is there a timeline for this?


----------



## SJHT

Also, Jim mentioned a lot of "they now recommend these types of settings, etc.". Is there a Lumagen document which captures this? SJ


----------



## uderman

I have a 65" Sony A1E Oled. I plan to switch from calman to lightspace because calman does not offer 3D Lut calibration for HDR for the radiance pro. Does anyone with similar equipment have any experience and inputs on the 3D Lut HDR calibration in lightspace?

The Sony TV dims the light output by half in SDR mode, I can not use HDR2020 in -> SDR2020 out with intensity mapping like Jim recommends.


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> Two quotes from the PDF:
> "
> Set CMS0 and CMS1 to the same “Colorspace”
> (either SDR2020 or SDR709) and do 3D LUT
> calibration for both.
> 
> Calibrate Rec 709 as normal (CMS0). Set CMS0
> Colorspace = SDR709 (Note: You can use Colorspace =
> SDR2020 and still create a Rec 709 3D LUT)
> "
> 
> Why or when would both CMS be set to 2020?
> Is this just HDR related?
> 
> I always thought CMS0 is always 709, while CMS1 is 2020 to cover both colorspaces depending on source signal.
> 
> Does this mean I could use 2020 for both?
> I'll ask because I have a Shield TV, which currenty can't autoswitch colorspaces, so when reading that I thought I could always set it to use 2020 and let the Pro deal with it.
> Does that make any sense?
> 
> -R


bump. I think that is a vendor question.


----------



## bearcat2002

Does anyone here know if a Radiance Pro would make the picture on a Sony VW600ES substantially better @ 130"? The projector doesn't have HDR but I hear/read that the Radiance Pro can map it out very well in the SDR spectrum, but then I hear the picture is substantially dimmer doing that. Just would like to have a little more info before I throw this kind of money down. Thank you!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Directv is now passing HDR/HLG on 104 and 106, it’s showing in Radiance as SDR2020, is the Lumagen capable of passing HLG? Radiance appears to not be reading this as hdr.


See below pic that Radiance Pro is not passing HDR on the Brian Setzer 4k 59.94 Hz HDR concert which DirecTV advertises as 4k HDR.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bearcat2002 said:


> Does anyone here know if a Radiance Pro would make the picture on a Sony VW600ES substantially better @ 130"? The projector doesn't have HDR but I hear/read that the Radiance Pro can map it out very well in the SDR spectrum, but then I hear the picture is substantially dimmer doing that. Just would like to have a little more info before I throw this kind of money down. Thank you!


the image will not be substantially dimmer doing tonemaping in the Pro. I do that sort of thing all the time in non HDR enabled projectors with the Pro. In fact it can be the opposite with the Pro tonemaping making the image brighter and more detailed on projectors that DO have HDR tonemaping. Bypassing the projectors internal EOTF and using the Lumagen gives better results.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

uderman said:


> I have a 65" Sony A1E Oled. I plan to switch from calman to lightspace because calman does not offer 3D Lut calibration for HDR for the radiance pro. Does anyone with similar equipment have any experience and inputs on the 3D Lut HDR calibration in lightspace?
> 
> The Sony TV dims the light output by half in SDR mode, I can not use HDR2020 in -> SDR2020 out with intensity mapping like Jim recommends.



I just got myself an A1 too. I have not had time to do tests with it. However, i do not expect that i/you will be able to make a 3DLUT that can make use of the HDR tonemapping built in to the display. I will try though.


----------



## Mike_WI

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> See below pic that Radiance Pro is not passing HDR on the Brian Setzer 4k 59.94 Hz HDR concert which DirecTV advertises as 4k HDR.


The picture you posted indicates the input isn't HDR.
So, likely not a matter of the Pro not passing it but rather the input not being HDR.
Maybe the advertising was wrong (likely) or something else in pathway turned HDR off?

Mike


----------



## Wookii

Mike_WI said:


> The picture you posted indicates the input isn't HDR.
> So, likely not a matter of the Pro not passing it but rather the input not being HDR.
> Maybe the advertising was wrong (likely) or something else in pathway turned HDR off?
> 
> Mike


Unless it's being sent in HLG, which the Pro presumably won't recognise as yet.


----------



## baseball0618

Debating on purchasing a Radiance pro to add to my HT. RS4500-Marantz 7704 pre/pro w/ 138" scope screen. Would use the pro to do stretch on the fly so that I can fill screen w/ any given material. Is there any benefit to send all 5 video sources to the Pro (ATV4K-ATV 4th gen-Panny UB900-Oppo 103D-Verizon cable feed) and one video output to the projector and one audio output to the AVR or send all sources to the AVR then one input to the pro then out to the projector? I guess the later would allow me to buy a 4242 instead of a 4446, but is there any benefit going directly to the pro versus through the AVR first? Is it recommended to upgrade to 18ghz chipsets too?


----------



## Mike_WI

*18GHz chipsets*



baseball0618 said:


> Debating on purchasing a Radiance pro to add to my HT. RS4500-Marantz 7704 pre/pro w/ 138" scope screen. Would use the pro to do stretch on the fly so that I can fill screen w/ any given material. Is there any benefit to send all 5 video sources to the Pro (ATV4K-ATV 4th gen-Panny UB900-Oppo 103D-Verizon cable feed) and one video output to the projector and one audio output to the AVR or send all sources to the AVR then one input to the pro then out to the projector? I guess the later would allow me to buy a 4242 instead of a 4446, but is there any benefit going directly to the pro versus through the AVR first? Is it recommended to upgrade to 18ghz chipsets too?


I'll let others tackle the multiple questions.
If you are investing in a Pro, I would get the 18GHz chipsets to help (relatively) future proof.

Mike


----------



## dinamigym

baseball0618 said:


> Debating on purchasing a Radiance pro to add to my HT. RS4500-Marantz 7704 pre/pro w/ 138" scope screen. Would use the pro to do stretch on the fly so that I can fill screen w/ any given material. Is there any benefit to send all 5 video sources to the Pro (ATV4K-ATV 4th gen-Panny UB900-Oppo 103D-Verizon cable feed) and one video output to the projector and one audio output to the AVR or send all sources to the AVR then one input to the pro then out to the projector? I guess the later would allow me to buy a 4242 instead of a 4446, but is there any benefit going directly to the pro versus through the AVR first? Is it recommended to upgrade to 18ghz chipsets too?




I have a Marantz 8802a but decided to let the Lumagen do all my video switching and send audio only to the Marantz as Lumagen recommends. However I know several in here do not want to give up the onscreen display from their AVR so they do the video switching and audio in their AVR. One of the issues I had is a long HDMI run 45ft from the equipment to my projector. I found the handshake very difficult when I put the Marantz in the video chain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike_WI said:


> The picture you posted indicates the input isn't HDR.
> So, likely not a matter of the Pro not passing it but rather the input not being HDR.
> Maybe the advertising was wrong (likely) or something else in pathway turned HDR off?
> 
> Mike


You don't get it. The broadcast is in HDR but the Radiance Pro isn't recognizing the HDR!!!! That's why the Info screen doesn't say HDR. Google the Brian Setzer concert and you will see DirecTV advertises it in HDR. The Cleveland Cavaliers BB game today and the Rose Bowl Parade Jan 1 are also advertised by DirecTV as HDR.


----------



## LJG

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> You don't get it. The broadcast is in HDR but the Radiance Pro isn't recognizing the HDR!!!! That's why the Info screen doesn't say HDR. Google the Brian Setzer concert and you will see DirecTV advertises it in HDR. The Cleveland Cavaliers BB game today and the Rose Bowl Parade Jan 1 are also advertised by DirecTV as HDR.


Steve:

I checked with Jim and Radiance does not pass HLG/HDR, which is what broadcasters transmit. This according to Jim has been moved up on the priority list since DTV is now broadcasting some programming in HLG/HDR.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Steve:
> 
> I checked with Jim and Radiance does not pass HLG/HDR, which is what broadcasters transmit. This according to Jim has been moved up on the priority list since DTV is now broadcasting some programming in HLG/HDR.


Yea - here's "proof" that DirecTV is staring to broadcast some 4k with HDR:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...ate-of-sports-music-and-events-300571658.html

Jim just asked me what model I have for 4k and HDR, I advised him, and he advises he is going to pick it up and see what he can do.


----------



## Wookii

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Yea - here's "proof" that DirecTV is staring to broadcast some 4k with HDR:
> 
> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...ate-of-sports-music-and-events-300571658.html
> 
> Jim just asked me what model I have for 4k and HDR, I advised him, and he advises he is going to pick it up and see what he can do.


Steve, you need to read the replies. Direct TV are broadcasting in HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) HDR, its a completely different format than the HDR10 HDR format that is found on UHD blu-ray. The Radiance Pro, and many display devices, are not compatible with HLG as yet.

EDIT: If you bypass the Radiance and send a feed direct to your 5000ES, it should work, as the 5000ES support HLG I believe (?)


----------



## Mike_WI

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> You don't get it. The broadcast is in HDR but the Radiance Pro isn't recognizing the HDR!!!! That's why the Info screen doesn't say HDR. Google the Brian Setzer concert and you will see DirecTV advertises it in HDR. The Cleveland Cavaliers BB game today and the Rose Bowl Parade Jan 1 are also advertised by DirecTV as HDR.


I get/got it.
In troubleshooting one consideration is that despite advertising the source really isn't HDR.
I think the likely explanation is this:



LJG said:


> Steve:
> 
> I checked with Jim and Radiance does not pass HLG/HDR, which is what broadcasters transmit. This according to Jim has been moved up on the priority list since DTV is now broadcasting some programming in HLG/HDR.


I wasn't trying to be difficult, but just trying to help.

Mike


----------



## SJHT

I hope these new things don’t continue to delay pip/pop.....


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Wookii said:


> Steve, you need to read the replies. Direct TV are broadcasting in HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) HDR, its a completely different format than the HDR10 HDR format that is found on UHD blu-ray. The Radiance Pro, and many display devices, are not compatible with HLG as yet.
> 
> EDIT: If you bypass the Radiance and send a feed direct to your 5000ES, it should work, as the 5000ES support HLG I believe (?)


Pardon me for not reading back in the thread far enough. Consider me chastized! But I do thank you for providing good info in response to my inquiry!


----------



## baseball0618

dinamigym said:


> I have a Marantz 8802a but decided to let the Lumagen do all my video switching and send audio only to the Marantz as Lumagen recommends. However I know several in here do not want to give up the onscreen display from their AVR so they do the video switching and audio in their AVR. One of the issues I had is a long HDMI run 45ft from the equipment to my projector. I found the handshake very difficult when I put the Marantz in the video chain.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. I have ~ 30 ft from rack to projector and currently running a ruipro 15m fiber cable from my Marantz 7704. I was planning on running everything to pro then someone I spoke to said they were running to AVR first for the reasons you mention (OSD and switching). However, that introduces more handshaking and anyone that is bleeding edge these days w/ AV equipment knows that HDMI handshaking can be quite an obstacle.


----------



## Wookii

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Pardon me for not reading back in the thread far enough. Consider me chastized! But I do thank you for providing good info in response to my inquiry!


Lol no chatizing here Steve, I could just tell you'd missed the point on the different HDR formats. Let me know if you get HLG working direct to the 5000ES, my 885ES supports it too, so I'm keen to know if it works.


----------



## dinamigym

baseball0618 said:


> Thank you. I have ~ 30 ft from rack to projector and currently running a ruipro 15m fiber cable from my Marantz 7704. I was planning on running everything to pro then someone I spoke to said they were running to AVR first for the reasons you mention (OSD and switching). However, that introduces more handshaking and anyone that is bleeding edge these days w/ AV equipment knows that HDMI handshaking can be quite an obstacle.


How has the ruipro been working for you? I have been using the monoprice fiber and its been my best option so far but often wondered if the ruipro might improve things more?


----------



## baseball0618

dinamigym said:


> How has the ruipro been working for you? I have been using the monoprice fiber and its been my best option so far but often wondered if the ruipro might improve things more?


Working very well so far, zero handshake issues to date. I am probably going to run another to my projector just to have one spare on hand already pulled through to my rack. Are you having any issues w/ the monoprice?


----------



## LJG

Wookii said:


> Lol no chatizing here Steve, I could just tell you'd missed the point on the different HDR formats. Let me know if you get HLG working direct to the 5000ES, my 885ES supports it too, so I'm keen to know if it works.


Not Steve but HLG direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly, projector goes into HLG/HDR mode automatically


----------



## dinamigym

baseball0618 said:


> Working very well so far, zero handshake issues to date. I am probably going to run another to my projector just to have one spare on hand already pulled through to my rack. Are you having any issues w/ the monoprice?




It’s far better than anything I’ve previously tried but still flaky at times. I think I’ll give the the ruipro a try based on your experience with it. Thanks Much!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## turls

SJHT said:


> I hope these new things don’t continue to delay pip/pop.....


Ditto, it's never ending on new tweaks / moving target for HDR. I have DirecTV, so I want to get HLG too, but at this point I would hope pip/pop would be bump-down-the-list proof, after almost 3 years waiting on it.


----------



## Wookii

LJG said:


> Not Steve but HLG direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly, projector goes into HLG/HDR mode automatically


Thanks, good to know - now I just need to wait for the Beeb to start releasing programming in the format.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 121017*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 121017*
Small bugfix for correctly coming back up on a virtual input if went to standby when it was selected. 
Added direct commands to select either default 18Ghz output firmware or newer firmware from manufacturer. 
Press "menu 0851" to switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware or "menu 0850" to switch to original firmware. 
The Pro will automatically reboot (no save is necessary) and then take a minute to complete the change. 
All Pro's are currently using the original firmware and if you don't have 18Ghz outputs or are having no issues then there is no need to perform these commands. 
If you have an issue that you feel may be hdmi related between an 18Ghz output of the Pro and a display or are just curious then please try the newer firmware with "menu 0851" and we appreciate any feedback you have on it. 
You can go back to the original firmware with "menu 0850" if necessary. 
You can check which you are using to verify by pressing "menu 0536" and at the end of the last line there is a ",1" or ",0" which designates the new or original 18Ghz output firmware respectively.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~2 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*What is the benefit of the new 18GHz (manufacturer) ouput chip FW?*

@jrp

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Can you clarify on:

*Beta 121017*


> Press "menu 0851" to switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware or "menu 0850" to switch to original firmware. The Pro will automatically reboot (no save is necessary) and then take a minute to complete the change .
> All Pro's are currently using the original firmware


Appreciate the ability of users to swithch old (0850) / new (0851) FW modes.

*Beta 120417*


> The change in 112417 for allowing audio turnoff of individual 18Ghz outputs exposed a bug in hdmi chip fw from manufacturer...


*Beta 112417*


> Put back 110317 version of 18Ghz output chip firmware (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds due to this). Can turn off audio on the video output of 18Ghz cards now.


*Beta 110817*


> *Avoid using this update*.
> Have had number of problems with newer 18Ghz output chip firmware.
> Will be replaced soon.
> Updated 18Ghz output chip firmware from manufacturer (first power-on after this update takes about 50 seconds as the 18Ghz output chips update).



What is the benefit (if any) for the new 18GHz output chip FW?

Is it sync time or something else?
Maybe that has been explained before, but maybe you could be explicit about it.
(We know it was from the company pushing it out, not your FW build).
Thanks for all of the work on recent FW updates and enlightening us on your thoughts.


Mike


----------



## dinamigym

Mike_WI said:


> @jrp
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> Can you clarify on:
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 121017*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 120417*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 112417*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 110817*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the benefit (if any) for the new 18Ghz FW?
> 
> Maybe that has been explained before, but maybe you could be explicit about it.
> 
> (We know it was from the company pushing it out, not your FW build).
> 
> 
> 
> Mike




I know I might be in the minority but I’m very glad they brought the new firmware option back! I have far...far better switching and sync with the new firmware.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wookii

dinamigym said:


> I know I might be in the minority but I’m very glad they brought the new firmware option back! I have far...far better switching and sync with the new firmware.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What display are you using?


----------



## dinamigym

Wookii said:


> What display are you using?




Sony 5000


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wookii

dinamigym said:


> Sony 5000
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. What sort of improvement in switching/sync speed do you see?


----------



## dinamigym

Wookii said:


> Thanks. What sort of improvement in switching/sync speed do you see?




I assume in part due to the length of my run from the Lumagen to my projector I have always experienced fairly long delays in switching between sources and ultimately hdmi handshake. After switching to new firmware the first time I observed a great degree of improvement in both areas. When it was removed in the previous few updates my problems reared their ugly heads again. After this update and invoking the new 18g firmware things are running far better/smoother/quicker Again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

*18GHz ouput FW -> faster sync times ?*



Wookii said:


> Thanks. What sort of improvement in switching/sync speed do you see?





dinamigym said:


> I assume in part due to the length of my run from the Lumagen to my projector I have always experienced fairly long delays in switching between sources and ultimately hdmi handshake.
> After switching to new firmware the first time I observed a great degree of improvement in both areas. When it was removed in the previous few updates my problems reared their ugly heads again.
> After this update and invoking the new 18g firmware things are running far better/smoother/quicker Again.


That's good to hear.
Has anyone else noted faster sync times with other projectors (eg JVC)?

Mike


----------



## SJHT

dinamigym said:


> I assume in part due to the length of my run from the Lumagen to my projector I have always experienced fairly long delays in switching between sources and ultimately hdmi handshake. After switching to new firmware the first time I observed a great degree of improvement in both areas. When it was removed in the previous few updates my problems reared their ugly heads again. After this update and invoking the new 18g firmware things are running far better/smoother/quicker Again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m getting the 5000s baby brother tomorrow (885) and will upgrade to the latest Pro firmware. I really hope syncing will be better than my RS600. SJ


----------



## dlinsley

Mike_WI said:


> That's good to hear.
> Has anyone else noted faster sync times with other projectors (eg JVC)?


Maybe a hair quicker with my RS600. No issues using the newer 18G output firmware with this release though, when I could never get a picture when that was rolled out the first time - I verified with Menu 0536 that the newer is being used. The only issue I had was that for my Roku (input 2), HDR was now set to Default for CMS instead of CMS1 and so the Radiance was outputting HDR-2020 instead of IM SDR-2020. My UHD player (input 1) setting remained correct though.


----------



## msleb

dlinsley said:


> Maybe a hair quicker with my RS600. No issues using the newer 18G output firmware with this release though, when I could never get a picture when that was rolled out the first time - I verified with Menu 0536 that the newer is being used. The only issue I had was that for my Roku (input 2), HDR was now set to Default for CMS instead of CMS1 and so the Radiance was outputting HDR-2020 instead of IM SDR-2020. My UHD player (input 1) setting remained correct though.


I have the Sony 5000 and found that my handshake issues were much worse with the newer firmware, and resolved immediately once I put back the old firmware. Jim, can you clarify whether the 'new' 18ghz chip firmware in this revision is the same 'new' firmware as was previously released (albeit now with a menu command that allows toggling between firmware) or whether this is an improved new firmware?

And, can you comment upon whether the menu codes are 'sticky'? In other words, if I install this beta version and find that I need to use the old firmware (menu 0850) and I lose AC power, will the RP come back to the old firmware, or do I need to enter the menu 0850 command again? Or, for others, if they use menu 0851 in order to utilize the new firmware, would that setting stick in the event of AC recycle?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*

I was reviewing Pro notes including old FW updates and complied this [likely dated and incomplete] list of direct commands

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
& AVS



*Press Menu then...*

029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler"
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0871 - Allow 4k24, 25 or 1080p50, 60 output only
0872 - Allow 4k24, 25, 50, 60 output only
0873 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (9 GHz max)
0874 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (18 GHz max)
0910 - service mode
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)


----------



## LJG

msleb said:


> I have the Sony 5000 and found that my handshake issues were much worse with the newer firmware, and resolved immediately once I put back the old firmware. Jim, can you clarify whether the 'new' 18ghz chip firmware in this revision is the same 'new' firmware as was previously released (albeit now with a menu command that allows toggling between firmware) or whether this is an improved new firmware?
> 
> And, can you comment upon whether the menu codes are 'sticky'? In other words, if I install this beta version and find that I need to use the old firmware (menu 0850) and I lose AC power, will the RP come back to the old firmware, or do I need to enter the menu 0850 command again? Or, for others, if they use menu 0851 in order to utilize the new firmware, would that setting stick in the event of AC recycle?


Same here, 5000ES and new firmware much worse handshake issue, reverted back to old firmware for 18ghz chip


----------



## KarlKlammer

Mike_WI said:


> I was reviewing Pro notes including old FW updates and complied this [likely dated and incomplete] list of direct commands


I have two more commands:

0532 - HDR "Profiler"
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL


----------



## Mike_WI

KarlKlammer said:


> I have two more commands:
> 
> 0532 - HDR "Profiler"
> 0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL


Thanks. Added.


----------



## SJHT

I loaded the new Pro firmware which I believe in doing the check is using the old HDMI output firmware by default? Seems great for my new Sony 885. No reason to use the new HDMI output firmware, but the 885 is much faster in syncing than my RS600. SJ


----------



## collinp

Mike_WI said:


> I was reviewing Pro notes including old FW updates and complied this [likely dated and incomplete] list of direct commands


And a few more from the slide deck Jim posted here http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2172017-new-lumagen-radiance-pro-series-76.html#post55266334

0871 - Allow 4k24, 25 or 1080p50, 60 output only
0872 - Allow 4k24, 25, 50, 60 output only
0873 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (9 GHz max)
0874 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (18 GHz max)
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

EDIT - Added the leading zeros


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
& AVS

Edits by: colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz


Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

*Press Menu then...*

029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler"
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0871 - Allow 4k24, 25 or 1080p50, 60 output only
0872 - Allow 4k24, 25, 50, 60 output only
0873 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (9 GHz max)
0874 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (18 GHz max)
0910 - service mode
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)


----------



## GerryWaz

Does this qualify for the list? Patrick gave it to me to try when I was having a possible syncing issue issue with my Pro: Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.


----------



## uderman

Setup:

Sony XBR-65A1E
Radiance Pro 4449 with 18Ghz I/O cards.
Oppo UDP-203 set to source direct/4:2:2/18Ghz enabled on 18Ghz input
Apple TV 4K on 9Ghz input

I have had all sort of issues with the last few firmware updates. Turning off gunlock all together fixed the issue for me. Anyone with similar setup and has issues should try disabling gunlock. Now I never lose video and switching inputs is much quicker. I should mention that the Sony OLED got some firmware update recently as well. Maybe the issue is not related to the Pro but the Sony TV. 

On the Apple TV 4K: I figured out the optimum settings for the 9Ghz input cards, just sharing my settings here. 

Enable HDR: OFF
Format : 4K60 SDR
HDMI output: YCbCr
Chroma: 4:2:0

These above 4 settings affect the video output while in TvOS Main screen. The below setting totally overwrites these in streaming apps. If you have your Apple TV 4K connected to a 18Ghz input card, you can enable HDR and 4:2:2 but it's a total overkill. All it will do is the main menu will appear in 4K60 HDR 4:2:2, the below settings will still overwrite this output style in the streaming apps. So far, I haven't found any content above 4k24 HDR 4:2:2 on any of the streaming apps. 

Match Content: Range & Frame Rate (TvOS 11.2 and newer)

On Netflix and Prime (I don't use iTunes) the output is 4K60 SDR 4:2:0 while browsing movies/TV shows. The output switches to 4K24 SDR 4:4:2 for any movie/TV shows. The output switches to 4k24 HDR 4:4:4 for any movies/TV shows with HDR or Dolby Vision. 

I have tried a number of Dolby Vision titles on Netflix and Prime. They must also include HDR10 metadata because I was able to pass 4K HDR through my Radiance Pro. I found this below link online. Here they mention. Some interesting info on how they implement HDR10 and DV in their streams. Amazon Prime must be using the same tools as I was able to get HDR10 pass through my Radiance Pro on Dolby Vision labeled content. I knew HDR10 was mandatory on UHD discs but was unsure on streams. 

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Artic...flix-Talks-Dolby-Vision-and-HDR10-118853.aspx

So far only the Billy Lynn's long halftime walk UHD disc has content with 4k60 HDR which requires 18Ghz input cards. Does anyone else have any content which required a 18Ghz input(other than game consoles)?


----------



## Rob Dingen

Some questions for output.
If I input REC2020 HDR to output REC709SDR.
I stil have a HDR Gamma output.
I use this setting to let the Lumagen do the tone mapping.
Even if I switch of the HDR tone mapping I stil get the HDR Gamma not Gamma 2,4.
So if I want to evaluate my LUT with a measurement I have to load CMS1 to REC709 and offer the Lumagen REC709 input.
Is this normal and does the Lumagen go into HDR if you input REC2020

Rob


----------



## collinp

Rob Dingen said:


> Some questions for output.
> If I input REC2020 HDR to output REC709SDR.
> I stil have a HDR Gamma output.
> I use this setting to let the Lumagen do the tone mapping.
> Even if I switch of the HDR tone mapping I stil get the HDR Gamma not Gamma 2,4.
> So if I want to evaluate my LUT with a measurement I have to load CMS1 to REC709 and offer the Lumagen REC709 input.
> Is this normal and does the Lumagen go into HDR if you input REC2020
> 
> Rob


Sounds like you are not actually outputting REC709SDR then. You need to set the CMS Colorspace = SDR709 or SDR2020 to disable the HDR flag in the output metadata.


----------



## Mike_WI

GerryWaz said:


> Does this qualify for the list? Patrick gave it to me to try when I was having a possible syncing issue issue with my Pro: Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.


Thanks. Added to post above.
Mike


----------



## thrang

I’m finding sync a few seconds slower with 1210, evening running the original 18 ghz firmware option. The new 18 gig code has been more unstable. This is also with a 5000.

Will like drop back to prior version. Two steps forward one step back...


----------



## alex_t

thrang said:


> I’m finding sync a few seconds slower with 1210, evening running the original 18 ghz firmware option. The new 18 gig code has been more unstable. This is also with a 5000.
> 
> Will like drop back to prior version. Two steps forward one step back...


Hello,

With *121017, *have you tried it with GENLOCK NORMAL or FAST (the last one corresponds to genlock implementation before 120417) ?

With a JVC X7500, the new GENLOCK (aka NORMAL) brings instability, I'm going to report the issue to Lumagen.

Regards


----------



## Rob Dingen

collinp said:


> Sounds like you are not actually outputting REC709SDR then. You need to set the CMS Colorspace = SDR709 or SDR2020 to disable the HDR flag in the output metadata.


I did that and the projector is not going into HDR.
If I use SDR2020 the projector switch to HDR.
Updated to the latest version.
Really don't understand this.
Now I use REC709 as input and CMS1 in output to measure it with a gamma of 2,4.


----------



## collinp

Rob Dingen said:


> I did that and the projector is not going into HDR.
> If I use SDR2020 the projector switch to HDR.
> Updated to the latest version.
> Really don't understand this.
> Now I use REC709 as input and CMS1 in output to measure it with a gamma of 2,4.


When no Radiance UI is currently being displayed you can press the "Ok" button on the remote to get the currently in use settings. Your output format should be 422-SDR2020. If it says 422-HDR2020 that is why your projector is going into HDR mode.

The only way an input affects the output format is by selecting a particular CMS based on input # and input format. That mapping is controlled by the Output->Output Setup menu. You select an input, play the format you want to control the mapping for and then configure that mapping in the Output Setup menu. Note there are different mappings if the source is 601/709, HDR/2020 and if the source is 2D or 3D. The defaults are CMS0 is the 601/709 CMS and CMS1 is the HDR/2020 CMS.

So if you're Radiance is at factory defaults. The only thing you should need to do to prevent it from setting the HDR metadata flag is : Go to Output -> CMS's -> CMS1 -> Colorspace and choose SDR2020 and then Save.

I suppose there's a chance your projector does something weird with HDR detection, but everything I've ever encountered or read about uses the HDR metadata flag for HDR detection and this technique defeats it.


----------



## Rob Dingen

If I press the ok button it shows 2020 input and SDR709 output.
I disabled HDR on the projector.
Really weird.
Do tomorrow a reset and try again.


----------



## jrp

msleb said:


> I have the Sony 5000 and found that my handshake issues were much worse with the newer firmware, and resolved immediately once I put back the old firmware. Jim, can you clarify whether the 'new' 18ghz chip firmware in this revision is the same 'new' firmware as was previously released (albeit now with a menu command that allows toggling between firmware) or whether this is an improved new firmware?
> 
> And, can you comment upon whether the menu codes are 'sticky'? In other words, if I install this beta version and find that I need to use the old firmware (menu 0850) and I lose AC power, will the RP come back to the old firmware, or do I need to enter the menu 0850 command again? Or, for others, if they use menu 0851 in order to utilize the new firmware, would that setting stick in the event of AC recycle?


To use the new 18 GHz output microcode you need to both upgrade to 121017 (or newer once more are posted), and enable the new 18 GHz output microcode with the MENU 0851 command. The unit will reboot after the command is entered. This "new" microcode is the same 18 GHz output microcode that was in the 110817 release.

This command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent.

If you want to revert to the original 18 GHz output microcode again, and want to stay with 121017 (or later), you need to enter MENU 0850. This command reverts to the original 18 GHz output microcode and is immediately permanent and so does not need to be Saved.

If you revert to an earlier release (before 121017), the microcode for that release is loaded. This is the original 18 GHz output microcode for all but the 110817 release. NOTE: If you then later reload 121017 or newer and want the new 18 GHz output microcode you need to again enter MENU 0851.

====== 

In our testing the new 18 GHz output microcode is better than the old 18 GHz output microcode. It has lower jitter as measured on a Tektronix HDMI tested (thanks to Jon Thompson for doing the Tektronix testing) and some compatibility bug fixes. So we believe that overall the new 18 GHz output microcode release is better than the original one.

We realize some are having issues with the new 18 GHz output microcode. These might be cable/physical-connection related, or compatibility related. It is always a tight-rope walk to make improvements to the HDMI interface that do not create issues with some other device. We fight this all the time. The difference here is the output microcode is completely controlled by the chip vendor. Fortunately it sounds like most people have better results with the new 18 GHz output microcode than the original.

If you do have issues with the new output microcode, we would like to hear more details. Give me a call (503-574-2211) if you want to discuss your 18 GHz output microcode results. There is a chance that if you are having issues we can find out what the cause is and perhaps find out a way around the issues you are having with the new 18 GHz output microcode.


----------



## mskreis

Now that Directv is transmitting 4K programming as HLG, what is the best approach via the Pro? The signal is recognized as SDR2020 so IM is not an option. 

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> To use the new 18 GHz output microcode you need to both upgrade to 121017 (or newer once more are posted), and enable the new 18 GHz output microcode with the MENU 0851 command. The unit will reboot after the command is entered. This "new" microcode is the same 18 GHz output microcode that was in the 110817 release.
> 
> This command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent.
> 
> If you want to revert to the original 18 GHz output microcode again, and want to stay with 121017 (or later), you need to enter MENU 0850. This command reverts to the original 18 GHz output microcode and is immediately permanent and so does not need to be Saved.
> 
> If you revert to an earlier release (before 121017), the microcode for that release is loaded. This is the original 18 GHz output microcode for all but the 110817 release. NOTE: If you then later reload 121017 or newer and want the new 18 GHz output microcode you need to again enter MENU 0851.
> 
> ======
> 
> In our testing the new 18 GHz output microcode is better than the old 18 GHz output microcode. It has lower jitter as measured on a Tektronix HDMI tested (thanks to Jon Thompson for doing the Tektronix testing) and some compatibility bug fixes. So we believe that overall the new 18 GHz output microcode release is better than the original one.
> 
> We realize some are having issues with the new 18 GHz output microcode. These might be cable/physical-connection related, or compatibility related. It is always a tight-rope walk to make improvements to the HDMI interface that do not create issues with some other device. We fight this all the time. The difference here is the output microcode is completely controlled by the chip vendor. Fortunately it sounds like most people have better results with the new 18 GHz output microcode than the original.
> 
> If you do have issues with the new output microcode, we would like to hear more details. Give me a call (503-574-2211) if you want to discuss your 18 GHz output microcode results. There is a chance that if you are having issues we can find out what the cause is and perhaps find out a way around the issues you are having with the new 18 GHz output microcode.


Jim -

This whole FW update issue is obviously a bit of a pain of the ass (if it doesn't help) and potential troubleshooting efforts.
However, I think we all appreciate your efforts and ongoing updates.

Mike


----------



## SJHT

I decided to try the new firmware with my Sony 885. Looks good so far although the original firmware also was fine. The improved jitter comments by Jim made me decide to go ahead but nice that they have allowed a way to do this independent of the rest of the firmware. SJ


----------



## jrp

mskreis said:


> Now that Directv is transmitting 4K programming as HLG, what is the best approach via the Pro? The signal is recognized as SDR2020 so IM is not an option.
> 
> Mark


Now that DirecTV is transmitting HLG it is moving up the priority list. Not sure how soon we can get to it, but we will try to get HLG into the software as soon as we can.

I can say that the HDR Intensity Mapping will be available to allow optimization of HLG once we have added the HLG to the software.


----------



## jrp

Rob Dingen said:


> Some questions for output.
> If I input REC2020 HDR to output REC709SDR.
> I stil have a HDR Gamma output.
> I use this setting to let the Lumagen do the tone mapping.
> Even if I switch of the HDR tone mapping I stil get the HDR Gamma not Gamma 2,4.
> So if I want to evaluate my LUT with a measurement I have to load CMS1 to REC709 and offer the Lumagen REC709 input.
> Is this normal and does the Lumagen go into HDR if you input REC2020
> 
> Rob


I went back to this earlier post for reference.

By default the Radiance Pro selects CMS0 if the source is not HDR and not Rec2020. If it is either HDR or Rec2020, the Pro (at default) selects CMS1. If you have a source that is Rec 2020 but not HDR, then you would need to manually select a different CMS for that case using an input memory, and then program that CMS for the SDR Rec 2020 source. We do not know of consumers source that is HDR but not Rec 2020, or Rec 2020 but not HDR.

What the TV/projector sees depends on the active CMS Colorspace setting. For CMS0 this is generally SDR709. For CMS1, the default is HDR2020, but we recommend SDR2020.

The Radiance Pro sends the HDR Info Frame flag out only if the active CMS Colorspace is HDR2020. It sends out the Rec 2020 Info Frame flag only if the Colorspace of the active CMS includes "2020." If the active CMS Colorspace = HDR2020 the TV/projector should report HDR and Rec 2020. If the active CMS Colorspace = SDR2020 the TV/projector should report SDR and Rec 2020. If the active CMS Colorspace = SDR709 the TV/projector should report SDR and Rec 709. You can confirm the active output CMS by going into Menu->Output->CMS's and see which has the '*' by it. This indicates the active CMS.

The output mode does not depend on if the HDR Intensity Mapping is on or off.

In the slide presentation I posted earlier, you can see that to calibrate for HDR sources that I recommend (at this time) calibrating CMS0 with a Rec709 source and setting the CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020. You set the black level, white level, and do the LUT calibrations with an SDR709 input. The output will be in SDR Rec 2020 mode and you calibrate to the Rec 2020 primaries. By copying CMS0 to CMS1 this becomes the calibration and setup for HDR sources, and you then turn on HDR Intensity Mapping for CMS1.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

I will post up a PDF manual for the whole process how I do calibrate with LightSpace, it took some time for me to get my head into it, so this manual will be very helpful for those doing it first time


----------



## westmd

I am a complete Radiance newbe but thinking of adding the Radiance to my setup. I do have a JVC X7000 as a projector and a OPPO 203 and Apple TV4k as main sources.
Therefore my goal would be to calibrate REC709, P3 with and without HDR10. I do assume the Radiance would be capable of that but what would be the software of choice? Spectracal, Calman or Lightspace?


----------



## SJHT

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I will post up a PDF manual for the whole process how I do calibrate with LightSpace, it took some time for me to get my head into it, so this manual will be very helpful for those doing it first time


Thank you! Please include all the options you are using to create your 3D LUT. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

westmd said:


> I am a complete Radiance newbe but thinking of adding the Radiance to my setup. I do have a JVC X7000 as a projector and a OPPO 203 and Apple TV4k as main sources.
> Therefore my goal would be to calibrate REC709, P3 with and without HDR10. I do assume the Radiance would be capable of that but what would be the software of choice? Spectracal, Calman or Lightspace?



yes all this is possible...but for accuracy sake we should say that you do not calibrate anything to P3. You calibrate for REC2020. I and many others here prefer LightSpace for the LUT creation although there are users successfully utilising Calman.


----------



## audioguy

For all I know about audio, I know close to zero about video. That said, what are some of the key benefits of adding this processor to my theater (vs no processor at all). I have a JVC RS500 which I absolutely love. And since I know zero about video, I use ChadB to calibrate my PJ (should he ever get to my neck of the woods again to re-do it since I had it repaired and lost all of the calibration data). And I might be mistaken, but I thought he was not a fan of calibrating through a processor, but I most certainly could be mistaken in that regard.

Thanks


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

audioguy said:


> For all I know about audio, I know close to zero about video. That said, what are some of the key benefits of adding this processor to my theater (vs no processor at all). I have a JVC RS500 which I absolutely love. And since I know zero about video, I use ChadB to calibrate my PJ (should he ever get to my neck of the woods again to re-do it since I had it repaired and lost all of the calibration data). And I might be mistaken, but I thought he was not a fan of calibrating through a processor, but I most certainly could be mistaken in that regard.
> 
> Thanks




Projectors internal controls are very linear, which means one change of setting for instance red gain or bias will directly impact on another. Lumagen controls are much better and use more complex mathematics algorithms, therefore it gives you the most precise way of calibrating your projector, especially using 3D Lut calibration. I use lightspace but you can also use ChromaPure auto calibration with Lumagen which works like a charm for SDR calibration.


----------



## audioguy

SoulOfUniverse said:


> therefore it gives you the most precise way of calibrating your projector, especially using 3D Lut calibration. I use lightspace but you can also use ChromaPure auto calibration with Lumagen which works like a charm for SDR calibration.


Thanks for your response. But given "I" wouldn't being doing the calibration, can someone who knows what they are doing (e.g. ChadB) get the same results even if it takes them longer? And, I have no idea what "3D Lut calibration" means. I previously had a Lumagen which I purchased primarily so that the software I also purchased (SpectraCal) could "automatically" do its thing to calibrate my PJ. But given I don't and didn't understand video, that was pretty much a waste of time and money.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

audioguy said:


> Thanks for your response. But given "I" wouldn't being doing the calibration, can someone who knows what they are doing (e.g. ChadB) get the same results even if it takes them longer? And, I have no idea what "3D Lut calibration" means. I previously had a Lumagen which I purchased primarily so that the software I also purchased (SpectraCal) could "automatically" do its thing to calibrate my PJ. But given I don't and didn't understand video, that was pretty much a waste of time and money.




Apart from very fine tuning in calibration, Lumagen has lots of other set of features, such as HDR internal mapping, which allows to use more correct way of Gamma for HDR and at the moment it gives better results, than using internal tone mapping for gamma of a projector.


----------



## D_B_0673

audioguy said:


> Thanks for your response. But given "I" wouldn't being doing the calibration, can someone who knows what they are doing (e.g. ChadB) get the same results even if it takes them longer? And, I have no idea what "3D Lut calibration" means. I previously had a Lumagen which I purchased primarily so that the software I also purchased (SpectraCal) could "automatically" do its thing to calibrate my PJ. But given I don't and didn't understand video, that was pretty much a waste of time and money.


 I was in the same boat as you, I did not feel competent to do a calibration. I have a brand new 640 and a Lumagen Pro. (had a Lumagen radiance for the last 10yrs.)
I was going to have Chad do a calibration, and I am sure he does a great job calibrating the JVC pj, but after talking to him, I found he would not do a calibration from with in the Lumagen, and was only calibrating the JVC. 
I purchased Chroma Pure, and used the "auto cal" portion for the Lumagen and it did a fantastic job on Rec 709. I can re-run it as often as needed and I am anxiously waiting for the module for SDR 2020, which is what Lumagen recommends for 4k.
If you have a lumagen, why bypass it, and only have the pj calibrated?
p.s. Tom at Chroma Pure is like Jim at Lumagen, both very helpful


----------



## sjschaff

audioguy said:


> For all I know about audio, I know close to zero about video. That said, what are some of the key benefits of adding this processor to my theater (vs no processor at all). I have a JVC RS500 which I absolutely love. And since I know zero about video, I use ChadB to calibrate my PJ (should he ever get to my neck of the woods again to re-do it since I had it repaired and lost all of the calibration data). And I might be mistaken, but I thought he was not a fan of calibrating through a processor, but I most certainly could be mistaken in that regard.
> 
> Thanks


I too have a JVC RS500 and have been using the Lumagen Radiance Pro for quite some time. Unlike you, I do calibrate, though I'm not a professional. With the advent of UHD with its wider gamut and other features, having a Lumagen Pro certainly helps me get the most out of my Panasonic UB900. Though I will say, it's been a rocky road at best to get this working (light output needs to really be bumped even for my 100"diag. Stewart StudioTec 130). And using CalMAN correctly with the Lumagen was quite a learning curve. There's far more needed to make this setup simpler and cleaner.

I'm a bit surprised that Chad doesn't offer calibration that would included the Lumagen as it's CMS, I would think, is far better than what the JVC offers. I think in the long run I'd opt to put in a 100" diag. OLED and be done with projectors. But that's likely to be a few years off...


----------



## audioguy

sjschaff said:


> I too have a JVC RS500 and have been using the Lumagen Radiance Pro for quite some time. Unlike you, I do calibrate, though I'm not a professional. With the advent of UHD with its wider gamut and other features, having a Lumagen Pro certainly helps me get the most out of my Panasonic UB900. Though I will say, it's been a rocky road at best to get this working (light output needs to really be bumped even for my 100"diag. Stewart StudioTec 130). And using CalMAN correctly with the Lumagen was quite a learning curve. There's far more needed to make this setup simpler and cleaner.
> 
> I'm a bit surprised that Chad doesn't offer calibration that would included the Lumagen as it's CMS, I would think, is far better than what the JVC offers. I think in the long run I'd opt to put in a 100" diag. OLED and be done with projectors. But that's likely to be a few years off...


Thanks for your response. The learning curve on CAlMan etc is quite long and one must dedicate some time to learning it - which I never did. ChadB does do calibrations using the Lumagen. I thought I understood him to say that he prefers not to have to - but I may have been completely mistaken.


----------



## D_B_0673

audioguy said:


> Thanks for your response. The learning curve on CAlMan etc is quite long and one must dedicate some time to learning it - which I never did. ChadB does do calibrations using the Lumagen. I thought I understood him to say that he prefers not to have to - but I may have been completely mistaken.


when I first spoke to him, he said he did do calibrations with the lumagen, but like you stated, he preferred to only use the PJ. Then when I spoke to him to finalize the date he was coming, and said again that I wanted it to be done in the Lumagen, he said he was going to do the calibration in the JVC. I thanked him and declined. Did you have your lumagen when he did your initial calibration?


----------



## Mike_WI

D_B_0673 said:


> when I first spoke to him, he said he did do calibrations with the lumagen, but like you stated, he preferred to only use the PJ. Then when I spoke to him to finalize the date he was coming, and said again that I wanted it to be done in the Lumagen, he said he was going to do the calibration in the JVC. I thanked him and declined. Did you have your lumagen when he did your initial calibration?


I didn't realize that.
He was going to calibrate mine when he was in WI, but dates didn't work.

Craig Rounds calibrates with Lumagen Pro.
http://www.cir-engineering.com/calibration-equipment/


----------



## SJHT

D_B_0673 said:


> when I first spoke to him, he said he did do calibrations with the lumagen, but like you stated, he preferred to only use the PJ. Then when I spoke to him to finalize the date he was coming, and said again that I wanted it to be done in the Lumagen, he said he was going to do the calibration in the JVC. I thanked him and declined. Did you have your lumagen when he did your initial calibration?


I had a similar conversation, but then also switched my projector. Need Ken Whitcomb to make a trip to the west coast! Maybe when he is done stacking projectors. Lol. SJ


----------



## dinamigym

SJHT said:


> I had a similar conversation, but then also switched my projector. Need Ken Whitcomb to make a trip to the west coast! Maybe when he is done stacking projectors. Lol. SJ




Ken did a fantastic calibration of my Sony 5000 and Lumagen for me this weekend including SDR2020 Intensity Mapping and SDR709/SDR2020 LUTs. He left me with 2 options to view HDR content which I really like the flexibility. One using the intensity mapping and SDR2020 of the Lumagen and the other using the Sony for HDR2020. I was able to program buttons for each into my control system to automatically be able to switch on the fly. With the SDR option I only need to run my laser at 50% v 100% when bypassing and using Sony. I would highly recommend to anyone on the fence.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

Yeah, I’ve yet to find anyone in my area who is an expert like Ken at the Lumagen Pro. He almost made a trip out here earlier this year, but never happened as a few people dropped out. Even Jim P. didn’t have a good recommendation for my area. Now that I also have a Sony, Ken would be even better. SJ


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

dinamigym said:


> Ken did a fantastic calibration of my Sony 5000 and Lumagen for me this weekend including SDR2020 Intensity Mapping and SDR709/SDR2020 LUTs. He left me with 2 options to view HDR content which I really like the flexibility. One using the intensity mapping and SDR2020 of the Lumagen and the other using the Sony for HDR2020. I was able to program buttons for each into my control system to automatically be able to switch on the fly. With the SDR option I only need to run my laser at 50% v 100% when bypassing and using Sony. I would highly recommend to anyone on the fence.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ken did my video setup (Sony VLP-VW5000, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Stewart Vistascope 2:40 14' wide Snomatte screen) a month ago. WOW! Ken is amazing! He knows both my projector and the Radiance Pro inside and out. He has speed dial to Jim Peterson at Lumagen if the need arises. You can't do better! I personally think many calibrators haven't taken the time to become familiar with the Radiance Pro and therefore only want to calibrate at the projector. And these days, with the Radiance Pro's HDR tonemapped into SDR package, the added brightness and resultant color maximize the impact and virtue of the picture. and the additional light output you get from the projector with tonemapping of HDR allowed me to go from a 1.3 gain Studiotech to a flat Snomatte screen, the latter is like looking through a clear window, what a dramatic difference. Thank you Ken and Lumagen!


----------



## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> Yeah, I’ve yet to find anyone in my area who is an expert like Ken at the Lumagen Pro. He almost made a trip out here earlier this year, but never happened as a few people dropped out. Even Jim P. didn’t have a good recommendation for my area. Now that I also have a Sony, Ken would be even better. SJ


In the same boat out here in the S.F. Bay Area. If Ken ever comes to the Left Coast, that would be great. Few seem to either have the expertise or interest in tackling such calibrations.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

sjschaff said:


> In the same boat out here in the S.F. Bay Area. If Ken ever comes to the Left Coast, that would be great. Few seem to either have the expertise or interest in tackling such calibrations.


Ken will come out there. Get two more more folks together, so you can split his travel costs. He's worth the [email protected]@@ My understanding is Ken isn't doing "tours", but he will fly [email protected]@ Like he did for us here in Gilbert, Az.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

For those of us with the VW5000ES laser projector or another Sony laser projector, or the JVC top line laser projector (which all have 4096 X 2160 panels) and the Lumagen Radiance Pro:

For "regular" HD sources (1080i and 720p at 59.54 Hz; and blu rays 1080p 23.94 Hz), is it better to set the Radiance Pro to output 4096 X 2160 (the full panel of the VW5000ES) vs 3840 X 2160 (the consumer standard for 4k broadcast and 4K Ultra blu ray discs)?

Using 4096 X 2160 will utilize the full VW5000ES panel and thus somewhat more light output from the projector; whereas using 3840 X 2160, at least for 1080i and 1080p sources, is an exact doubling of the HD frame rate.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> For those of us with the VW5000ES laser projector or another Sony laser projector, or the JVC top line laser projector (which all have 4096 X 2160 panels) and the Lumagen Radiance Pro:
> 
> For "regular" HD sources (1080i and 720p at 59.54 Hz; and blu rays 1080p 23.94 Hz), is it better to set the Radiance Pro to output 4096 X 2160 (the full panel of the VW5000ES) vs 3840 X 2160 (the consumer standard for 4k broadcast and 4K Ultra blu ray discs)?
> 
> Using 4096 X 2160 will utilize the full VW5000ES panel and thus somewhat more light output from the projector; whereas using 3840 X 2160, at least for 1080i and 1080p sources, is an exact doubling of the HD frame rate.


------------------------------

I emailed Jim Peterson of Lumagen and here's his illuminating response:

4096x2160 is not the correct aspect ratio for 16:9 if you are a 16:9 screen and in fact 4096x2160 will not fit correctly on a 16:9 screen. If you have a 2.35 screen then show 16:9 in a pillar box, or do NLS, then 4096 wide can be fine and there should be a bit more light.

Note that for 4k 2.35 (or 2.4, etc.) consumer movies filling the 4096 means you must scale. Scaling will reduce the resolution slightly verses no scaling (we have the best scaling and have less “softening” but there is always some with any scaler). So if the projector can do pixel for pixel without scaling then 3840 wide can have a very slightly better image. 

NOTE: The Sony VW5000ES does not appear capable of pixel-for-pixel output. It does zone based RGB convergence the apparently cannot be disabled (unlike the new models like the 885 which where this can be disabled in the service menu). To see this effect put up the Radiance Pro every other pixel patterns. However, because of this “always on scaling” in the VW5000ES you might find 4096 wide looks as good as 3840 wide since it lacks a pixel perfect mode.
_______________

Reading the VW5000ES manual, I was hoping that the Motion Flow "Cinema" setting might do pixel perfect. But it states that it maintains the original frame rate, nothing about pixel perfect. Anyone know if by chance any of the Motion Flow or other settings in the VW5000 menu allow for "pixel perfect" as well as original frame rate without any further video processing or scaling (probably not)?


----------



## SJHT

Well, I've tried both the new and old HDMI output firmware and really can't tell the difference (from a syncing perspective). They seem to both work fine on my Sony 885. Guess I will run the latest. SJ


----------



## baseball0618

Does Ken have any experience w/ the Lumagen and the RS4500? I have spoken to Chad B as well and he seems as though he doesn't want to calibrate via the Lumagen, however I want to purchase one for scaling and some of it's other benefits? Maybe enough of us w/ RS4500s can convince Chad?


----------



## westmd

Point for discussion. I was looking a bit around for a good calibrator in Germany who would setup the radiance pro. Had a long chat with one of the leading projector calibrators. He would in theory calibrate the Radiance pro at my place, but finally made the comment, that a JVCX7900 perfectly calibrated through the internal CMS would be about the same quality as a JVCX7000 with a calibrated Radiance Pro! What are your thoughtson that statement?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

baseball0618 said:


> Does Ken have any experience w/ the Lumagen and the RS4500? I have spoken to Chad B as well and he seems as though he doesn't want to calibrate via the Lumagen, however I want to purchase one for scaling and some of it's other benefits? Maybe enough of us w/ RS4500s can convince Chad?


Ken told me he just calibrated a RS4500 for Dave Shapiro in Chicago right before he came to Az to do me and [email protected]@@


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## KarlKlammer

westmd said:


> Point for discussion. I was looking a bit around for a good calibrator in Germany who would setup the radiance pro. Had a long chat with one of the leading projector calibrators. He would in theory calibrate the Radiance pro at my place, but finally made the comment, that a JVCX7900 perfectly calibrated through the internal CMS would be about the same quality as a JVCX7000 with a calibrated Radiance Pro! What are your thoughtson that statement?


Did he want to sell you an X7900? 
I don't see that much of a difference between X7000 and X7900 when it comes to the question if adding a Radiance Pro makes sense or not.


----------



## westmd

KarlKlammer said:


> Did he want to sell you an X7900?
> I don't see that much of a difference between X7000 and X7900 when it comes to the question if adding a Radiance Pro makes sense or not.


He does not sell projectors, just calibration service. His statement was not comparing the X7000 and X7900 with a Radiance Pro in the chain, but that the internal CMS in the X7900 is so advanced that a Radiance Pro would not even be nexessary as the calibration of the X7900 would be sufficient. Iam not saying this is true but it would interest me how this group sees it?


----------



## SJHT

Finished calibrating HDR (IM with SDR2020 output) with my Sony 885 today including having 3D LUTs for SDR and HDR sources. Jim’s training documentation really helped with a few questions I had. I have experience with Calman and SDR, but always struggled a bit with HDR sources. Having a simple document really helps namely calibrating SDR2020 using the CMS0 (2020 colorspace, Gamma 2.4, etc.), copying it to CMS1, etc. Results turned out really good. Thanks again to Jim for providing. More documentation like that will always be welcomed! SJ


----------



## westmd

SJHT said:


> Finished calibrating HDR (IM with SDR2020 output) with my Sony 885 today including having 3D LUTs for SDR and HDR sources. Jim?s training documentation really helped with a few questions I had. I have experience with Calman and SDR, but always struggled a bit with HDR sources. Having a simple document really helps namely calibrating SDR2020 using the CMS0 (2020 colorspace, Gamma 2.4, etc.), copying it to CMS1, etc. Results turned out really good. Thanks again to Jim for providing. More documentation like that will always be welcomed! SJ


Have you got a link to this document?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

westmd said:


> He does not sell projectors, just calibration service. His statement was not comparing the X7000 and X7900 with a Radiance Pro in the chain, but that the internal CMS in the X7900 is so advanced that a Radiance Pro would not even be nexessary as the calibration of the X7900 would be sufficient. Iam not saying this is true but it would interest me how this group sees it?


Internal CMS controls of any projectors are less precise and are very linear, this been discussed many times, so doing a fine tuning with the internal CMS is just impossible, especially when we talk about Luts calibration, and believe me there is a difference when you calibrate manually or you use LUT calibration. So Lumagen comes in help to prevent linearity dependency of CMS controls + gives ability to use LUTS, and I think its the only one scaler in the world, which supports Internal HDR Tone Mapping with loads of different settings offered to an end user, and it does much much better job than any internal PJ HDR Tone Mapping at the moment. Things might be changed in the future, but no one knows when.


----------



## FidelioX

SoulOfUniverse said:


> ... and it does much much better job than any internal PJ HDR Tone Mapping at the moment.


Does anyone ever produced some reports or graphics to document this advantage? 

I think it will be very interesting...


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## SoulOfUniverse

FidelioX said:


> Does anyone ever produced some reports or graphics to document this advantage?
> 
> I think it will be very interesting...




Its a very time consuming job, people just see it who owns it, I think Jim might be able to provide this?


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## SoulOfUniverse

*SONY VPL-VW760ES/VW885ES best settings from my view in combination with Lumagen Pro*



SJHT said:


> Thank you! Please include all the options you are using to create your 3D LUT. SJ


HI SJHT, sorry for a big delay didn't have a time to do that doc.
Please find attached or can be downloaded directly via this link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9274h0a0gidsth5/SK_VW760ES_BEST_SETTINGS.pdf?dl=0


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## westmd

SoulOfUniverse said:


> SJHT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Please include all the options you are using to create your 3D LUT. SJ
> 
> 
> 
> HI SJHT, sorry for a big delay didn't have a time to do that doc.
> Please find attached or can be downloaded directly via this link:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9274h0a0gidsth5/SK_VW760ES_BEST_SETTINGS.pdf?dl=0
Click to expand...

Great thanks, is there a similar document for JVC's?


----------



## SJHT

westmd said:


> Have you got a link to this document?


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2172017-new-lumagen-radiance-pro-series-76.html#post55266334

Post 2261 on that page.....

I also change my source switching order and other things per this information. SJ


----------



## Dirk44

westmd said:


> Point for discussion. I was looking a bit around for a good calibrator in Germany who would setup the radiance pro. Had a long chat with one of the leading projector calibrators. He would in theory calibrate the Radiance pro at my place, but finally made the comment, that a JVCX7900 perfectly calibrated through the internal CMS would be about the same quality as a JVCX7000 with a calibrated Radiance Pro! What are your thoughtson that statement?


All the best for 2018 Ingo,

you should get in touch with Heimkino Klohs 
He did a very good job with the Pro by make my VW 1100 show WCG and HDR finally, under the "circumstance" 0.82 Gain of our V6 Fabric as well


----------



## SJHT

SoulOfUniverse said:


> HI SJHT, sorry for a big delay didn't have a time to do that doc.
> Please find attached or can be downloaded directly via this link:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9274h0a0gidsth5/SK_VW760ES_BEST_SETTINGS.pdf?dl=0


Thank you for this! I was originally wanting the options you use in Lightspace in creating a 3D LUT. Never had good success with that software, but not as simple for me as Calman. SJ


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

SJHT said:


> Thank you for this! I was originally wanting the options you use in Lightspace in creating a 3D LUT. Never had good success with that software, but not as simple for me as Calman. SJ




will do mate I just don't have time at the moment, will try to do over weekend the workflow process of calibration via LightSpace.


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## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> I had a similar conversation, but then also switched my projector. Need Ken Whitcomb to make a trip to the west coast! Maybe when he is done stacking projectors. Lol. SJ


Ken is willing to come out out way...for a price. He needs two or more of us to foot the cost. I'm willing though it would have to happen in the 2nd quarter.


----------



## SJHT

sjschaff said:


> Ken is willing to come out out way...for a price. He needs two or more of us to foot the cost. I'm willing though it would have to happen in the 2nd quarter.


Count me in. 2nd quarter would be great. SJ


----------



## SJHT

SoulOfUniverse said:


> will do mate I just don't have time at the moment, will try to do over weekend the workflow process of calibration via LightSpace.


No rush on this! Thanks. SJ


----------



## Ian_Currie

SoulOfUniverse said:


> HI SJHT, sorry for a big delay didn't have a time to do that doc.
> Please find attached or can be downloaded directly via this link:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9274h0a0gidsth5/SK_VW760ES_BEST_SETTINGS.pdf?dl=0


Thanks for sharing this. I am happy to see that you change Max Light depending on content. I find I have to do the same depending on the UHD I'm viewing. I've written to Jim to ask advice on a strategy to be able to change Max Light easier than it is now (which requires about 15 clicks on the remote control as it is nested pretty deep in the menus). How do you deal with this?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Ian_Currie said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I am happy to see that you change Max Light depending on content. I find I have to do the same depending on the UHD I'm viewing. I've written to Jim to ask advice on a strategy to be able to change Max Light easier than it is now (which requires about 15 clicks on the remote control as it is nested pretty deep in the menus). How do you deal with this?




Hi Ian, it is explained in the manual, press left arrow key on the remote and you can adjust HDR tone mapping settings on the fly, don't forget to click OK to apply the settings.


----------



## Wookii

Ian_Currie said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I am happy to see that you change Max Light depending on content. I find I have to do the same depending on the UHD I'm viewing. I've written to Jim to ask advice on a strategy to be able to change Max Light easier than it is now (which requires about 15 clicks on the remote control as it is nested pretty deep in the menus). How do you deal with this?


I personally don’t tend to change the Display Max Light setting once I’ve dialled it in. However, if you want to change it based on content, there are four memory presets per input, so you could set-up four different combinations of IM settings and then switch between them on the fly with a single remote button.

Edit: Now I think about it, for display max light, you’d actually have to use four different CMS slots also - I always forget that display max light is in the output side not the input side.


----------



## Ian_Currie

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Ian, it is explained in the manual, press left arrow key on the remote and you can adjust HDR tone mapping settings on the fly, don't forget to click OK to apply the settings.


I think you misunderstood me. Max Light isn't part of the left-arrow HDR settings.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Wookii said:


> I personally don’t tend to change the Display Max Light setting once I’ve dialled it in.


In theory that would be the way to go, but I haven't found one setting that works for all - and the Shape and Transition values quickly cause artifacts if used to bridge the gap. Some titles (e.g. Kingsman) are mastered pretty bright and work much better with less light whereas something like John Wick needs a lot of light to avoid black crush.




Wookii said:


> However, if you want to change it based on content, there are four memory presets per input, so you could set-up four different combinations of IM settings and then switch between them on the fly with a single remote button.
> 
> Edit: Now I think about it, for display max light, you’d actually have to use four different CMS slots also - I always forget that display max light is in the output side not the input side.


Is there any easy way to choose between different CMS slots? It seems only the first 2 are used (CMS 0 for SDR content and CMS 1 for HDR) yet there are several others.


----------



## Wookii

Ian_Currie said:


> In theory that would be the way to go, but I haven't found one setting that works for all - and the Shape and Transition values quickly cause artifacts if used to bridge the gap. Some titles (e.g. Kingsman) are mastered pretty bright and work much better with less light whereas something like John Wick needs a lot of light to avoid black crush.


you have a point with John Wick, though I found tweaking Black or Gamma settings within the IM setting sufficient in those cases.




Ian_Currie said:


> Is there any easy way to choose between different CMS slots? It seems only the first 2 are used (CMS 0 for SDR content and CMS 1 for HDR) yet there are several others.


As far as I know the Ouput can be set to use any CMS you prefer for Rec709 or Rec2020. CMS0 and CMS1 are just the defaults respectively.

So your Memory A could be set for CMS1 for Rec2020, Mem B could use CMS2, Mem C could use CMS3 and Mem D could use CMS4. Each CMS could be a copy of the 1D and 3D LUT profiles from CMS1, just with a different value for Display Max Light.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Ian_Currie said:


> I think you misunderstood me. Max Light isn't part of the left-arrow HDR settings.




Ah sorry Nits 300 to 500 , I agree this must be added to be able to change on the left arrow, Jim could add this as another column to the setting on the fly, good spot.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Wookii said:


> you have a point with John Wick, though I found tweaking Black or Gamma settings within the IM setting sufficient in those cases.


I will try playing with the Black and Gamma to see if I can make that work, I appreciate the suggestion.




Wookii said:


> As far as I know the Ouput can be set to use any CMS you prefer for Rec709 or Rec2020. CMS0 and CMS1 are just the defaults respectively.
> 
> So your Memory A could be set for CMS1 for Rec2020, Mem B could use CMS2, Mem C could use CMS3 and Mem D could use CMS4. Each CMS could be a copy of the 1D and 3D LUT profiles from CMS1, just with a different value for Display Max Light.



Thank you - I think I can see where I can copy a CMS to another slot and hopefully I can find the screen that specifies which CMS to use (rather than the default).... BUT

I cannot figure out how to 'store' a current setting in the various memory slots. I see that I can call up MemA through MemD but nowhere in the manual (as far as I can see) does it explain how to 'save' to a memory. Can you (or anyone) point me in the right direction?

Thanks!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Ian_Currie said:


> I will try playing with the Black and Gamma to see if I can make that work, I appreciate the suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you - I think I can see where I can copy a CMS to another slot and hopefully I can find the screen that specifies which CMS to use (rather than the default).... BUT
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot figure out how to 'store' a current setting in the various memory slots. I see that I can call up MemA through MemD but nowhere in the manual (as far as I can see) does it explain how to 'save' to a memory. Can you (or anyone) point me in the right direction?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!




Just go to global settings and save save every time you do the change to Lumagen, so you set mem a output, mem b outputc and then click save it will be saved


----------



## thrang

Ian_Currie said:


> I think you misunderstood me. Max Light isn't part of the left-arrow HDR settings.


Which is where I suggested to Patrick and Jim a while ago that it should be placed. No reason to go deep diving in the menus to get to it given the wide variety of content mastering. Just stick in the left-arrow. Maybe code the existing HDR Mapping menu offer an option to HIDE Max Light (NOT show it in left arrow, or SHOW it (DO show it in left-arrow) to give calibrators some control.


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> Which is where I suggested to Patrick and Jim a while ago that it should be placed. No reason to go deep diving in the menus to get to it given the wide variety of content mastering. Just stick in the left-arrow. Maybe code the existing HDR Mapping menu offer an option to HIDE Max Light (NOT show it in left arrow, or SHOW it (DO show it in left-arrow) to give calibrators some control.


I hope he listens. Not only is it deep, but when you adjust it there are menus in the way of evaluating the change so you have to back out of all the menus.


----------



## Wookii

Ian_Currie said:


> I will try playing with the Black and Gamma to see if I can make that work, I appreciate the suggestion.
> 
> Thank you - I think I can see where I can copy a CMS to another slot and hopefully I can find the screen that specifies which CMS to use (rather than the default).... BUT
> 
> I cannot figure out how to 'store' a current setting in the various memory slots. I see that I can call up MemA through MemD but nowhere in the manual (as far as I can see) does it explain how to 'save' to a memory. Can you (or anyone) point me in the right direction?
> 
> Thanks!


Yep, what’s Soul says; general save button saves everything regardless of CMS or memory slot.


----------



## Ian_Currie

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Just go to global settings and save save every time you do the change to Lumagen, so you set mem a output, mem b outputc and then click save it will be saved


Thank you - I have it all working now - much easier!


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 121217*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 121217*
Just a few small tweaks to 121017 update.
A small fix for problems when powering up and immediately selecting a test pattern to view. 
On the Input HDR setup menu, which is quickly brought up with left arrow, we've added showing what the effective Display Max Light is for the Ratio setting. 
Altered the RS232 ZQI22 report so the 'F' field reports the HDR/SDR on the current input as opposed to what the output is doing. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Eventidal

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 121217*
> Just a few small tweaks to 121017 update.
> A small fix for problems when powering up and immediately selecting a test pattern to view.
> On the Input HDR setup menu, which is quickly brought up with left arrow, we've added showing what the effective Display Max Light is for the Ratio setting.
> Altered the RS232 ZQI22 report so the 'F' field reports the HDR/SDR on the current input as opposed to what the output is doing.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Is it also possible to change the values now in the left arrow HDR IM setup menu for Display Max light?


----------



## Ian_Currie

Do you have to install the firmware in chronological order or can you just go with the latest?


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW updates*



Ian_Currie said:


> Do you have to install the firmware in chronological order or can you just go with the latest?


Generally just latest.
There might be (?) some special cases where a sequential approach is needed, but that would be noted in FW description.
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Mike


----------



## Ian_Currie

Eventidal said:


> Is it also possible to change the values now in the left arrow HDR IM setup menu for Display Max light?


No, it is not possible. Max Light is displayed underneath the editable values.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Guys anyone managed to get panny UB900 output netflix hdr content and Lumagen recognises as hdr? I have panny now and it doesn't work, roku switches just fine to hdr2020 as input but panny sdr709 still, I know Lumagen doesn't support HLG yet but I check content, which is served in HDR10, and I can confirm Roku Ultra plays absolutely fine. Alamazon doesn't work on both? I have even connected Roku directly to PJ avoiding Lumagen and still no luck, haven't tried UB900 connecting directly yet


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Guys anyone managed to get panny UB900 output netflix hdr content and Lumagen recognises as hdr? I have panny now and it doesn't work, roku switches just fine to hdr2020 as input but panny sdr709 still, I know Lumagen doesn't support HLG yet but I check content, which is served in HDR10, and I can confirm Roku Ultra plays absolutely fine. Alamazon doesn't work on both? I have even connected Roku directly to PJ avoiding Lumagen and still no luck, haven't tried UB900 connecting directly yet




Ok an update, you must select output resolution to Automatic, otherwise panny ub900 will be locked in current state sdr709 and won't be changed when using streaming services, just confirmed Amazon and Netflix works fine it reshakes hdmi connection and identifies input as HDR, so very important to set in PANNY output as Automatic. Still Roku doesn't play Amazon HDR content in HDR, plays in SDR


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Ian_Currie said:


> No, it is not possible. Max Light is displayed underneath the editable values.




You should use ratio value which directly affects max display nits value, it works god as it gives you more precise value, ratio max range is -15 to 15 which is about -150 to 150 nits.


----------



## Ian_Currie

SoulOfUniverse said:


> You should use ratio value which directly affects max display nits value, it works god as it gives you more precise value, ratio max range is -15 to 15 which is about -150 to 150 nits.


Ratio is very subtle. Now I know why if it's only 10 nits per increment. 

I've now got it setup that I have MemA through MemD at 100, 200, 300 & 400 Max Light values. From there I can always tweak on the fly with the Ratio, Gamma or Black so I think I'm good.


----------



## jrp

I thought I would comment on the Display Max Light discussion.

The input HDR mapping parameter "Ratio" effectively changes Display Max Light used for HDR intensity Mapping. So the ability to change Display Max Light has been in the input parameter menu. We felt this was important due to the differences in editing from movie to movie. We did not want to confuse the per input and per memory "Ratio" adjustment of Display Max Light with the more global value in the CMS. BTW: I posted a slide set a while back that explains the HDR mapping parameters - hopefully - well enough for everyone to understand the function of each. Rather than make people find it I am attaching it here again.

After requests here we discussed putting the Display Max Light in the input HDR Mapping parameter menu but it does not seem the right approach for our architecture given there is a control that affects this in the input HDR mapping menu already. We believe it is better to select a Display Max Light for the CMS memory and then you can modify it in the input parameter menu using "Ratio." Effectively the same thing since changing Ratio does change the net Display Max Light used for calculating the transfer function. 

Note: As has been pointed out you can use the Output Setup Menu to point to a different CMS for HDR for each memory (MEMA to MEMD) and then each memory can have a different Max Display Light if desired.

We decided rather than put Display Max Light in the input HDR parameter menu, we would instead report the resulting "net Display Max Light" in the input HDR parameter menu so the net Display Max Light is easy to see as you change "Ratio." This was added as of 121217.

We will consider increasing the range of Ratio to allow more range based on comments here. Still it is already about a +-40% range, which seems a lot to me. If you have numbers for the range of Display Max Light you use (with Ratio = 0 to not complicate it), let us know here or email Lumagen support.

If the source material and the source device correctly reports MaxCLL this should not be needed (IMO). However, there is source material that either fails to report MaxCLL or gets it wrong. In addition some devices report MaxCLL incorrectly. Since the Radiance Pro uses Display Max Light and MaxCLL to dynamically adapt the transfer function, having errors in MaxCLL can cause problems. We are discussing having the Radiance Pro dynamically calculate MaxCLL and then dynamically adapt the transfer function to the Pro calculated MaxCLL. I think this would significantly reduce the need to change Display Max Light since we would not be depending on the movie or source device data in the HDR Info Frame to be correct.


----------



## alex_t

jrp said:


> [...]
> 
> We are discussing having the Radiance Pro dynamically calculate MaxCLL and then dynamically adapt the transfer function to the Pro calculated MaxCLL. I think this would significantly reduce the need to change Display Max Light since we would not be depending on the movie or source device data in the HDR Info Frame to be correct.


Hello Jim and thank you.

From my opinion, what you are currently discussing is the most effective solution, I hope you will implement it.

Thanks
Alexandre


----------



## leemathre

Tom Huffman at Chromapure has released a beta version of his software (v 3.1.8) that supports HDR autocal with the Radiance Pro. Instructions are at

http://www.chromapure.com/distribute/standard/LumagenPro.pdf


----------



## jabz

Will the 18GHz output cards run at 9Ghz if my projector is not 18 capable? (Sony VW520ES)


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jabz said:


> Will the 18GHz output cards run at 9Ghz if my projector is not 18 capable? (Sony VW520ES)




yes no prolem input and output will automatically switch to 9Ghz mode


----------



## dlinsley

This is likely more a question for @jrp but maybe someone else has previously confirmed with Lumagen:

When outputting 4k60 video on both 18G and 9G outputs, and the debug menu reports 422 oBpp:12, is the 18G outputting 4:2:2 12-bit and the 9G 4:2:0 (possibly 8bpp)? Ultimately, as long as the 18G is not downsampled I'm good, as the 9G output is purely used for the info frame 

My scenario is using the HDFurty Vertex with the new beta support for JVC macro control. With the beta firmware, we can now switch user profiles on the JVC projectors when outputting SDR-2020 (in addition to previous support for HDR), and back again to the regular profile when it switches back to 709. Perfect for those of us using intensity mapping. However, with the Vertex inline at the projector I was getting some dropped frames at 4k60 - I have a 50' RuiPro from my Anthem receiver to the projector - but I have 3 HDMI cables running from my rack to the projector (2 old Monoprice Cabernet before adding the RuiPro) and so now have a 9G output from the Radiance feeding the Vertex just to provide the metadata for switching.

Cheers,
David.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

dlinsley said:


> This is likely more a question for @jrp but maybe someone else has previously confirmed with Lumagen:
> 
> 
> 
> When outputting 4k60 video on both 18G and 9G outputs, and the debug menu reports 422 oBpp:12, is the 18G outputting 4:2:2 12-bit and the 9G 4:2:0 (possibly 8bpp)? Ultimately, as long as the 18G is not downsampled I'm good, as the 9G output is purely used for the info frame
> 
> 
> 
> My scenario is using the HDFurty Vertex with the new beta support for JVC macro control. With the beta firmware, we can now switch user profiles on the JVC projectors when outputting SDR-2020 (in addition to previous support for HDR), and back again to the regular profile when it switches back to 709. Perfect for those of us using intensity mapping. However, with the Vertex inline at the projector I was getting some dropped frames at 4k60 - I have a 50' RuiPro from my Anthem receiver to the projector - but I have 3 HDMI cables running from my rack to the projector (2 old Monoprice Cabernet before adding the RuiPro) and so now have a 9G output from the Radiance feeding the Vertex just to provide the metadata for switching.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> David.




[email protected] or @60 will be always down sampled to YCbCr 4:2:0 8 bit for 9 Ghz bandwidth.


----------



## jrp

jabz said:


> Will the 18GHz output cards run at 9Ghz if my projector is not 18 capable? (Sony VW520ES)


Yes the Pro will output 9 GHz in this case, if you have the Pro output in Auto with the projector on the appropriate output. The output will be in the best available format (4:2:0, 8-bit for 4k60, and 4:2:2, 12-bit for 4k24) unless you have manually set the output format (note that for 9 GHz cards 4k60 is always 4:2:0 at 8-bit since this is the only format that works for 4k60 on a 9 GHz connection)

Note: If you have only one video device on the Radiance Pro output, even if you manually tell the Pro to output 18 GHz it will still read the projector/TV EDID, see it is not 18 GHz, and output 9 GHz or less as appropriate.

You might get in trouble if you have, say, the Pro at default, a 18 GHz TV on on output 4 (which is the default for EDID setting the auto output rate) and then put a 9 GHz TV on Output 2 if it is a 18 GHz output card -- At least I think so but I have not actually tested this case.

==== 

For mixed output card types consider the following: A 444X with one 18 GHz output card (should be Outputs 3 and 4), then a 9 GHz output card (for Outputs 1 and 2). You can have Output 4 at 18 GHz for 4k60 (we recommend 4:2:2 to get 12-bit pixel depth), then Output 2 will be at 9 GHz 4:2:0 at 8-bit. Output 1, if it has video enabled, would also be 8-bit 4:2:0. Formats at 9 GHz output rate (e.g. 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2) or less will have the same output format for both the 18 GHz and 9 GHz output cards. So the 9 GHz output is the same resolution and rate, but can have fewer bits in the pixels.


----------



## Chad B

baseball0618 said:


> Does Ken have any experience w/ the Lumagen and the RS4500? I have spoken to Chad B as well and he seems as though he doesn't want to calibrate via the Lumagen, however I want to purchase one for scaling and some of it's other benefits? Maybe enough of us w/ RS4500s can convince Chad?


The JVCs, when calibrated with the JVC autocal and then normal ISF calibration with a reference accuracy meter and using Arve's tool for HDR gamma, can give results that are so good that, measurement wise, a LUT cal just won't improve it. I have done many SDR LUT calibrations with Lumagens, and I own an eeColor LUT box and know what their capabilities are. 

I firmly believe the LUT calibration in a Radiance Pro isn't going to improve color, grayscale, or gamma accuracy vs the JVC calibration I described above. That leaves HDR tone mapping. Will it give better performance than importing a true custom curve with Arve's tool? I doubt it, because with Arve's tool you can do just about anything you want with excellent precision.

With the first RS4500 I did I couldn't get Arve's tool to work, but I've figured it out and got it working well now.

I do recognize that the scaling in the Pro can be advantageous. Also, the latest version of ChromaPure (which I have) includes what will hopefully be a good workflow for calibrating HDR on the Radiance Pro. I had not been impressed with what was offered in that department by the other software I usually use. There is a chance CP's implementation will give me the results I had been hoping to see.

I am not necessarily refusing to calibrate a JVC with the Radiance Pro; I'm mainly just trying to give honest answers when customers ask me if it's worth it to add one to their JVC PJ.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Chad B said:


> The JVCs, when calibrated with the JVC autocal and then normal ISF calibration with a reference accuracy meter and using Arve's tool for HDR gamma, can give results that are so good that, measurement wise, a LUT cal just won't improve it. I have done many SDR LUT calibrations with Lumagens, and I own an eeColor LUT box and know what their capabilities are.
> 
> 
> 
> I firmly believe the LUT calibration in a Radiance Pro isn't going to improve color, grayscale, or gamma accuracy vs the JVC calibration I described above. That leaves HDR tone mapping. Will it give better performance than importing a true custom curve with Arve's tool? I doubt it, because with Arve's tool you can do just about anything you want with excellent precision.
> 
> 
> 
> With the first RS4500 I did I couldn't get Arve's tool to work, but I've figured it out and got it working well now.
> 
> 
> 
> I do recognize that the scaling in the Pro can be advantageous. Also, the latest version of ChromaPure (which I have) includes what will hopefully be a good workflow for calibrating HDR on the Radiance Pro. I had not been impressed with what was offered in that department by the other software I usually use. There is a chance CP's implementation will give me the results I had been hoping to see.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not necessarily refusing to calibrate a JVC with the Radiance Pro; I'm mainly just trying to give honest answers when customers ask me if it's worth it to add one to their JVC PJ.



What results you relate to when you referred about other software vendors of HDR Calibration? I have vw760es and it has issues with colour out of the box, with that green tone presence on APL, LightSpace did a great job both for HDR and SDR, and I will upload detailed comparisons before and after somewhere in mid February, as I will need to wait till come to Nigel premises to use his professional cr300 probe, and we can verify the process together. I really doubt you can beat manual calibration vs 4913 points, as manually its impossible to calibrate.


----------



## Wookii

Chad B said:


> I firmly believe the LUT calibration in a Radiance Pro isn't going to improve color, grayscale, or gamma accuracy vs the JVC calibration I described above. That leaves HDR tone mapping. Will it give better performance than importing a true custom curve with Arve's tool? I doubt it, because with Arve's tool you can do just about anything you want with excellent precision.


Whilst I can’t disagree with you on the need for a LUT given JVC’s excellent Autocal software, in my experience a fixed tone mapping curve generated by the Arve software can’t achieve the quality of tone mapping that the Radiance Pro can by scaling the tone mapping on a title by title basis.


----------



## Chad B

SoulOfUniverse said:


> What results you relate to when you referred about other software vendors of HDR Calibration? I have vw760es and it has issues with colour out of the box, with that green tone presence on APL, LightSpace did a great job both for HDR and SDR, and I will upload detailed comparisons before and after somewhere in mid February, as I will need to wait till come to Nigel premises to use his professional cr300 probe, and we can verify the process together. I really doubt you can beat manual calibration vs 4913 points, as manually its impossible to calibrate.


CalMAN. I wasn't referring to just manual calibration; I was referring to manual calibration after JVC autocal, which can calibrate to 32 or 33 brightness levels of white, red, green, and blue. On a display with good saturation linearity, as on the latest JVCs, the results can be as good as a LUT cal (after following through with CalMAN or ChromaPure and a reference meter).


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Chad B said:


> CalMAN. I wasn't referring to just manual calibration; I was referring to manual calibration after JVC autocal, which can calibrate to 32 or 33 brightness levels of white, red, green, and blue. On a display with good saturation linearity, as on the latest JVCs, the results can be as good as a LUT cal (after following through with CalMAN or ChromaPure and a reference meter).




Can't argue as I haven't tried autocal from JVC, with all respect to Tom I have used Chroma Pure quite a lot but was not happy with the software and ending results, being myself a Software Architect cannot just stand with issues the software has, I have seen his beta version of HDR AutoCal with Lumagen, will definitely calibrate this as well in February and will compare the results.


----------



## loggeo

While lightspace can create excellent custom gamma curves for hdr, I don't see many people experimenting with them.
Most choose the safe way of a 2.4 gamma and IM.
When I compared, using Mad Max explosion scene (28:37), a gamma 2.4 IM curve to a custom HDR curve I could see a lot more detail on the later, although colors were undersaturated. Tuning IM on lumagen improved things though.
Anyone else gave it a try?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

loggeo said:


> While lightspace can create excellent custom gamma curves for hdr, I don't see many people experimenting with them.
> 
> Most choose the safe way of a 2.4 gamma and IM.
> 
> When I compared, using Mad Max explosion scene (28:37), a gamma 2.4 IM curve to a custom HDR curve I could see a lot more detail on the later, although colors were undersaturated. Tuning IM on lumagen improved things though.
> 
> Anyone else gave it a try?


Its because LightSpace is not cheap and it uses completely different approach of Calibration. I used LightSpace for Lut calibration for HDR, and result is great. Picture is outstanding.


----------



## SJHT

We are probably splitting hairs, but I believe that Kris Deering has indicated he feels the Pro with IM is a bit better for his RS4500 than custom curves. Plus you can have two different configs depending on source material. Guess you could have two different projector configs, but manually. SJ


----------



## Chad B

Yes you can have up to three manually selected custom gamma curves loaded into the JVCs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sillysally

Chad B said:


> The JVCs, when calibrated with the JVC autocal and then normal ISF calibration with a reference accuracy meter and using Arve's tool for HDR gamma, can give results that are so good that, measurement wise, a LUT cal just won't improve it. I have done many SDR LUT calibrations with Lumagens, and I own an eeColor LUT box and know what their capabilities are.
> 
> I firmly believe the LUT calibration in a Radiance Pro isn't going to improve color, grayscale, or gamma accuracy vs the JVC calibration I described above. That leaves HDR tone mapping. Will it give better performance than importing a true custom curve with Arve's tool? I doubt it, because with Arve's tool you can do just about anything you want with excellent precision.
> 
> With the first RS4500 I did I couldn't get Arve's tool to work, but I've figured it out and got it working well now.
> 
> I do recognize that the scaling in the Pro can be advantageous. Also, the latest version of ChromaPure (which I have) includes what will hopefully be a good workflow for calibrating HDR on the Radiance Pro. I had not been impressed with what was offered in that department by the other software I usually use. There is a chance CP's implementation will give me the results I had been hoping to see.
> 
> I am not necessarily refusing to calibrate a JVC with the Radiance Pro; I'm mainly just trying to give honest answers when customers ask me if it's worth it to add one to their JVC PJ.


Although I have never tried to calibrate a JVC with the Radiance Pro, I came to the same conclusion four months ago about the LG 2017 OLED's. 

In this case I tend to believe Chad when he says "honest answer" 

ss


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> For mixed output card types consider the following: A 444X with one 18 GHz output card (should be Outputs 3 and 4), then a 9 GHz output card (for Outputs 1 and 2). You can have Output 4 at 18 GHz for 4k60 (we recommend 4:2:2 to get 12-bit pixel depth), then Output 2 will be at 9 GHz 4:2:0 at 8-bit. Output 1, if it has video enabled, would also be 8-bit 4:2:0. Formats at 9 GHz output rate (e.g. 4k24, 12-bit, 4:2:2) or less will have the same output format for both the 18 GHz and 9 GHz output cards. So the 9 GHz output is the same resolution and rate, but can have fewer bits in the pixels.


Thanks for confirming Jim. BTW I thought the 18G output card instructions (circa 12 months ago) said to install as Output 1/2?


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> While lightspace can create excellent custom gamma curves for hdr, I don't see many people experimenting with them.
> Most choose the safe way of a 2.4 gamma and IM.
> When I compared, using Mad Max explosion scene (28:37), a gamma 2.4 IM curve to a custom HDR curve I could see a lot more detail on the later, although colors were undersaturated. Tuning IM on lumagen improved things though.
> Anyone else gave it a try?


Before IM was available, I used LightSpace to create 3D-LUTs with tone mapping for HDR. The result was far better than anything I was able to achieve with the JVC built-in HDR controls. Now IM has reached a state in which I find it more flexible to use than a LightSpace-LUT with tone mapping. I can easily change a few settings whithout connecting a computer and uploading a new LUT. But sure, you have to tweak the IM settings a bit to get comparable results to a LightSpace LUT.
And I still use LightSpace for creating LUTs as a base for HDR IM (UHD Rec.2020, Gamma 2.4) and SDR (Rec.709).


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> Before IM was available, I used LightSpace to create 3D-LUTs with tone mapping for HDR. The result was far better than anything I was able to achieve with the JVC built-in HDR controls. Now IM has reached a state in which I find it more flexible to use than a LightSpace-LUT with tone mapping. I can easily change a few settings whithout connecting a computer and uploading a new LUT. But sure, you have to tweak the IM settings a bit to get comparable results to a LightSpace LUT.
> And I still use LightSpace for creating LUTs as a base for HDR IM (UHD Rec.2020, Gamma 2.4) and SDR (Rec.709).


I agree with you and after spending a lot of time tweaking, I found that for the most part Lumagen IM with 2.4 gamma was equally impressive. But there were a couple of occasions where I could see significant differences. I am not that good of a photographer at all but I will try to post some screenshots showing what I exactly mean .
I will also post my settings and charts on both lumagen and Lightspace.
I hope that some of you have the chance to compare and provide an opinion.


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> I agree with you and after spending a lot of time tweaking, I found that for the most part Lumagen IM with 2.4 gamma was equally impressive. But there were a couple of occasions where I could see significant differences. I am not that good of a photographer at all but I will try to post some screenshots showing what I exactly mean .
> I will also post my settings and charts on both lumagen and Lightspace.
> I hope that some of you have the chance to compare and provide an opinion.


I guess you are struggling with highlights etc., because up to 50-60% there is not much difference between LighSpace and IM
When I first switched from LightSpace tone mapping to IM I had problems which I described in this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-59.html#post54473761
Sometime later a newer firmware resolved most of my issues. The IM settings now enable you to get the EOTF curve really close to LightSpace. But when you try to match both curves you have to be careful not to clip too fast. That is what I discovered just recently. So a little compromise seems to be necessary.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

KarlKlammer said:


> I guess you are struggling with highlights etc., because up to 50-60% there is not much difference between LighSpace and IM
> When I first switched from LightSpace tone mapping to IM I had problems which I described in this post:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-59.html#post54473761
> Sometime later a newer firmware resolved most of my issues. The IM settings now enable you to get the EOTF curve really close to LightSpace. But when you try to match both curves you have to be careful not to clip too fast. That is what I discovered just recently. So a little compromise seems to be necessary.




Sorry what IM you relate to? I assume IM is intensive mapping


----------



## KarlKlammer

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Sorry what IM you relate to? I assume IM is intensive mapping


Yes, by IM I mean Lumagen's Intensity Mapping.


----------



## darrellh44

Several months ago there was talk of someone coming out with a document that explains how to get the most out of a projector using a LumagenPro with Lightspace (don't even remember who at this point that was). Did this already come out and I missed it, is it still coming, or is it dead now? I would like to at least know what a professional calibrator can provide with a LumagenPro and an LS10000 vs running Lightspace calibrations on my own (using whatever documentation is currently available) so I can make an informed decision on whether it's worth it for me to hire a calibrator.

Thanks,
Darrell


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I was going to do a further document to the one i already did pre-intensity mapping. I still want to do it. I am on holiday for 10 days at end of mointh and am considering trying to do it then....which doesn't seem like much of a holiday..but you never know!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Gordon Fraser said:


> I was going to do a further document to the one i already did pre-intensity mapping. I still want to do it. I am on holiday for 10 days at end of mointh and am considering trying to do it then....which doesn't seem like much of a holiday..but you never know!




Hi Gordon, I was thinking to give you a credit anyway and send it to you before publishing, so may be I could start the document and we could work on it both as like collaborate?


----------



## darrellh44

Gordon Fraser said:


> I was going to do a further document to the one i already did pre-intensity mapping. I still want to do it. I am on holiday for 10 days at end of mointh and am considering trying to do it then....which doesn't seem like much of a holiday..but you never know!





SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Gordon, I was thinking to give you a credit anyway and send it to you before publishing, so may be I could start the document and we could work on it both as like collaborate?


Thanks guys. Looking forward to it. So any opinions on how far this document will get me doing my own calibration vs hiring a pro?


----------



## SJHT

Please when you create the document, list each Lightspace option you are choosing when creating the 3D Lutz. There is a lot of flexibility in the software, most we don't care about as it covers a lot of areas. lol Thanks! SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*LG Auto Calibration at CES 2018*

This is interesting...

*LG auto calibration is being demonstrated at CES 2018 with CalMan software from SpectraCal.*
http://www.avsforum.com/lg-auto-calibration-ces-2018/
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2947862-lg-auto-calibration-ces-2018-a.html

CalMAN
https://calman.spectracal.com/lg-autocal.html


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> I guess you are struggling with highlights etc., because up to 50-60% there is not much difference between LighSpace and IM
> When I first switched from LightSpace tone mapping to IM I had problems which I described in this post:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-59.html#post54473761
> Sometime later a newer firmware resolved most of my issues. The IM settings now enable you to get the EOTF curve really close to LightSpace. But when you try to match both curves you have to be careful not to clip too fast. That is what I discovered just recently. So a little compromise seems to be necessary.


Karl did you also try LS custom gamma curve and IM on (gamma to 3d lut=hdr)? This is were I got better results. Picture regains its pop (unfortunately it is kind of dull with IM off) and highlights maintain detail.
Downside is that colors are a bit undersaturated compared to IM gamma 2.4 (gamma to 3d lut=sdr).
I have got some pictures from mad max and man of steel but they are really unusable.


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> Karl did you also try LS custom gamma curve and IM on (gamma to 3d lut=hdr)? This is were I got better results. Picture regains its pop (unfortunately it is kind of dull with IM off) and highlights maintain detail.
> Downside is that colors are a bit undersaturated compared to IM gamma 2.4 (gamma to 3d lut=sdr).
> I have got some pictures from mad max and man of steel but they are really unusable.


No, I didn't mix LightSpace tone mapping with IM. Have you tried different clipping and multiplier values in LightSpace so it doesn't look so "dull", e.g. 1000 Nits an 4x? 
Regarding undersaturated colours, I'm not really sure if the selected source colourspace would be suitable when mixing LightSpace tone mapping with IM.
Taking meaningful pictures of HDR scenes is always a challenge.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

loggeo said:


> Karl did you also try LS custom gamma curve and IM on (gamma to 3d lut=hdr)? This is were I got better results. Picture regains its pop (unfortunately it is kind of dull with IM off) and highlights maintain detail.
> Downside is that colors are a bit undersaturated compared to IM gamma 2.4 (gamma to 3d lut=sdr).
> I have got some pictures from mad max and man of steel but they are really unusable.



Lumagens IM works with an expected gamma 2.4 curve for best solution, the undersaturated colors is more the issue of your colorspace and not gamma.


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> No, I didn't mix LightSpace tone mapping with IM. Have you tried different clipping and multiplier values in LightSpace so it doesn't look so "dull", e.g. 1000 Nits an 4x?
> Regarding undersaturated colours, I'm not really sure if the selected source colour space would be suitable when mixing LightSpace tone mapping with IM.
> Taking meaningful pictures of HDR scenes is always a challange.


I wish I had more time to play around with settings. I will do though. I strongly suggest you give it a try using a custom LS gamma curve with IM on and max light set to 4000-5000 nits (for Mad Max). Your opinion is valuable, perhaps it is something worth giving a try.
Undersaturated colors were more obvious before enabling IM though.


----------



## loggeo

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Lumagens IM works with an expected gamma 2.4 curve for best solution


I am sorry but who says that? I attach a paragraph from Lumagen's manual (page 27):

_The second option for SDR output is to use Colorspace = SDR and Gamma to 3D LUT= HDR. For this method the calibration software generates the 3D/1D LUT to adapt the HDR EOTF of the source to look correct on the SDR EOTF display. If possible set up the calibration software so that this calibration works as if the source is 3000 nits to perhaps 5000 nits, maximum instead of the normal HDR 10000 nit limit. Reducing the expected brightness will allow you to set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image._
_
_
_
_
_
_
I do agree that IM in not responsible for the undersaturated colors_ as I noted to Karl too.__
_


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

loggeo said:


> I am sorry but who says that? I attach a paragraph from Lumagen's manual (page 27):
> 
> _The second option for SDR output is to use Colorspace = SDR and Gamma to 3D LUT= HDR. For this method the calibration software generates the 3D/1D LUT to adapt the HDR EOTF of the source to look correct on the SDR EOTF display. If possible set up the calibration software so that this calibration works as if the source is 3000 nits to perhaps 5000 nits, maximum instead of the normal HDR 10000 nit limit. Reducing the expected brightness will allow you to set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image._
> _
> _
> _
> _
> _
> _
> I do agree that IM in not responsible for the undersaturated colors_ as I noted to Karl too.__
> _


I think you are mistaken by the way how the calibration should be performed. You mentioned Intensity Mapping, with the Intensity Mapping on, you should use colorSpace SDR709 or SDR2020, The Pro converts HDR Mapped video to
either HDR PQ Gamma, or Gamma = 2.4, it converts to HDR PQ Gamma, when you use colorspace HDR2020, then for sure you can use the approach of calibration with HDR EOTF adaption as Light Space offers, but you relate to Intensity Mapping, Intensity Mapping can be used with option Gamma to 3D Lut = HDR, but the colorspace should be used HDR2020, not any SDR as you mentioned. In the manual it states that if you use ColourSpace REC709 or REC2020, the expected gamma is 2.4. 
Please read this as well https://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html


----------



## KarlKlammer

@loggeo
I'm no sure I read about your setup. What kind of display/projector are you using? Which colourspace and HDR settings are activated in your Display? How good is the coverage of the colourspace when you create the LUT?
Basically, I also don't think it is a good idea to upload a LS LUT with tone mapping and activating IM.


----------



## loggeo

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I think you are mistaken by the way how the calibration should be performed. You mentioned Intensity Mapping, with the Intensity Mapping on, you should use colorSpace SDR709 or SDR2020, The Pro converts HDR Mapped video to
> either HDR PQ Gamma, or Gamma = 2.4, it converts to HDR PQ Gamma, when you use colorspace HDR2020, then for sure you can use the approach of calibration with HDR EOTF adaption as Light Space offers, but you relate to Intensity Mapping, Intensity Mapping can be used with option Gamma to 3D Lut = HDR, but the colorspace should be used HDR2020, not any SDR as you mentioned. In the manual it states that if you use ColourSpace REC709 or REC2020, the expected gamma is 2.4.
> Please read this as well https://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html


I could be wrong. But this is what I read on pages 26-27 of the manual:
"HDR Calibration for a SDR Display (or HDR display in SDR mode)" 
There are 2 ways of calibrating HDR while ouput CMS colorspace is set to SDR2020. I think this is clear:
1. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=SDR, upload gamma 2.4 with 2020 primaries, enable IM
2. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=HDR, upload a custom HDR curve from calibration software, then turn IM on and as the manual says "set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image"

The conversion of the gamma curve is not done by the ouput colorspace but by the "gamma to 3d lut" option.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

loggeo said:


> I could be wrong. But this is what I read on pages 26-27 of the manual:
> "HDR Calibration for a SDR Display (or HDR display in SDR mode)"
> There are 2 ways of calibrating HDR while ouput CMS colorspace is set to SDR2020. I think this clear:
> 1. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=SDR, upload gamma 2.4 with 2020 primaries, enable IM
> 2. Colorspace=SDR, Gamma to 3d lut=HDR, upload a custom HDR curve from calibration software, then turn IM on and as the manual says "set the Display Max Light at perhaps 2000 to 5000 nits, which in turn allows more room for the HDR Intensity Mapping to improve the image"
> 
> The conversion of the gamma curve is not done by the ouput colorspace but by the "gamma to 3d lut" option.




Yes I think you can use 2nd approach which will best fit to HDR TVs not projectors


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> @*loggeo*
> I'm no sure I read about your setup. What kind of display/projector are you using? Which colourspace and HDR settings are activated in your Display? How good is the coverage of the colourspace when you create the LUT?
> Basically, I also don't think it is a good idea to upload a LS LUT with tone mapping and activating IM.


Projector Jvc RS-500 using the ref.2020 color profile. Had a peak white of 99.5 nits if I can recall. When I get home I will post my custom gamma curve. I think I used a multiplier of 7, enabled soft roll off, upper start at about 80-85%, upper signal limit 4000, loaded screen max and min luminance. 
Gamma to 3d lut should not be in hdr mode when profiling the display. 
After uploading the profile, I turn gamma to 3d lut to hdr and max light output to 4000 nits.
Again I may (or may not) be wrong. But I found advantages and disadvantages compared to the gamma 2.4 method. Both use IM in the end.
Before anyone rejects it, a comparison could be made.


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> Projector Jvc RS-500 using the ref.2020 color profile.


I would advise you to take "Reference" colour profile instead of the BT.2020 colour profile when you characterize/profile your RS-500 with LightSpace.



> Had a peak white of 99.5 nits if I can recall. When I get home I will post my custom gamma curve. I think I used a multiplier of 7, enabled soft roll off, upper start at about 80-85%, upper signal limit 4000, loaded screen max and min luminance.


In my experience 7 could be too much for your peak white. Maybe you should try 5 or 4.


----------



## Dirk44

Dirk44 said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> in a few days the 7 Nolan UHD Movies will be released.
> As you know most his changing the Aspect Ratio all the time.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/117-2...32084-dunkirk-bd-release-dec-19-2017-a-2.html
> The Lumagen Pro has the option to chance the AR automaticlly, but I realize that the option is use, because there is a major delay, the delay times changed every time also.
> Can you please take a look at it and try to fix it, for exemaple with of nolans br discs dark knight or interstellar
> 
> Best Regards dirk


Hello Jim,

after the all Nolan Movies are released now, can you please to take a look at it and try reduce the delay, now is around 5 sec. and backward 3sec. 
This Delay get you out of the movies and makes the this very cool unique Feature, that only Lumagen had, unwatchable 

Best Regard dirk


----------



## thrang

Is anyone having power on issues via RS-232 with the 1212 firmware? I’ve discovered that my start up hdmi sync issues are actually the fact that my Radiance is not powering up via rs232 like it always had (11 series was latest I believe)

Using an RTI XP6 send % at 9600 8,1,N 

Everything else works - standby, source switching, aspect ratio.

I never really though to look for this and just presumed it was a boot sequence issue (as the gear is in another room I don’t physcially see it)

Thanks


----------



## D_B_0673

Dirk44 said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> after the all Nolan Movies are released now, can you please to take a look at it and try reduce the delay, now is around 5 sec. and backward 3sec.
> This Delay get you out of the movies and makes the this very cool unique Feature, that only Lumagen had, unwatchable
> 
> Best Regard dirk


Not sure what you are describing. I watched Dunkirk, and that change from 16x9 to approx 2.35 was frequent and instant. I wished Nolan did not do this
as I could not use my masking for the 2.35 aspect, but the change to 16x9 was seemless


----------



## bstone261

Hey guys, a quick question.

I have my Panasonic UB900 going into my 4242, with audio out to my Marantz. I also have my OPPO 203 going to my 4242 and audio out to my Marantz. The audio out is on output 1 and video on output 2.

The Panasonic has no issues, but the OPPO audio cuts out ever few seconds. Any ideas what is causing this issue?

If I direct connect the OPPO to the Marantz I have no audio issues (that is with a split HDMI out the OPPO). I do not use split HDMI when running to the Lumagen (Just the one HDMI out for video and audio).

So, I feel is is either a setting in the OPPO or Lumagen around audio when running through the Lumagen. 

Thxs!


----------



## Alyaji

thrang said:


> Is anyone having power on issues via RS-232 with the 1212 firmware? I’ve discovered that my start up hdmi sync issues are actually the fact that my Radiance is not powering up via rs232 like it always had (11 series was latest I believe)
> 
> Using an RTI XP6 send % at 9600 8,1,N
> 
> Everything else works - standby, source switching, aspect ratio.
> 
> I never really though to look for this and just presumed it was a boot sequence issue (as the gear is in another room I don’t physcially see it)
> 
> Thanks


Also using RS232 to operate my Radiance Pro (Elan Home Systems HC12)
Baud rate: 9600
Flow Control: N
Parity: N
Data Bits: 8
Stop Bits: 1

Power on % (with no terminator) operates normally with the latest firmware. Must be something else in your config.


----------



## thrang

Alyaji said:


> Also using RS232 to operate my Radiance Pro (Elan Home Systems HC12)
> Baud rate: 9600
> Flow Control: N
> Parity: N
> Data Bits: 8
> Stop Bits: 1
> 
> Power on % (with no terminator) operates normally with the latest firmware. Must be something else in your config.


Thanks - very odd for me...if I drop to 11xx, power on is reliable. If I go back to 12xx, power doesn’t work (or works maybe 5% of the time)


----------



## Dirk44

D_B_0673 said:


> Not sure what you are describing. I watched Dunkirk, and that change from 16x9 to approx 2.35 was frequent and instant. I wished Nolan did not do this
> as I could not use my masking for the 2.35 aspect, but the change to 16x9 was seemless


The Lumagen is the only unit what will switch different Aspect Ratios automatic and you can watch movies 
( Nolans Dark Knight and Dunkirk etc.) in the best way, 
BUT at the moment with huge delay, what is my problem...so far so bad


----------



## FidelioX

Dirk44 said:


> The Lumagen is the only unit what will switch different Aspect Ratios automatic and you can watch movies
> ( Nolans Dark Knight and Dunkirk etc.) in the best way,....


Hi, can you describe exactly what Lumagen does with those kind of films? 

Thank you


----------



## Gordon Fraser

FidelioX said:


> Hi, can you describe exactly what Lumagen does with those kind of films?
> 
> Thank you



If you have a fixed height 2.35:1 or 2.4:1 screen then, with auto aspect control in lumagen set to ON the scaler looks for black bars or for flags in the digital signal to work out what aspect the actual content on screen is. It then automatically switches to that aspect ratio. So imagine this scenatio

You put in your UHD disc and the splash screen menu comes up asking you if you want to play, select a scene, go to extras etc. The scaler will see this as 16:9 and will be in 16:9 aspect. If you have set up your STYLE setting correctly you will have 16:9 content displayed in middle of the 2.35:1 screen. You then select to play the movie. The movie starts and the scaler sees that it is 2.35:1 content and it automatically switches to 2.35:1 aspect and the image fills the 2.35:1 screen. That is very cool...

Now imagine the above but....you are watching one of those really annoying Nolan films that has IMAX sections dropped in. What happens is that you are watching in 2.35:1 and then suddenly a short 20 second section of IMAX at perhaps 1.85:1 aspect is dropped in. The scaler takes several seconds to determine what has happened and when it does it jumps to 16:9 aspect and the scene is now rendered in the middle of the 2.35:1 screen. Then that scene ends and it's back to the 2.35:1 content...and again it takes a few seconds for the scaler to determine that the aspect has changed. so for a few seconds you get 2.35:1 content displayed inside a 16:9 area inside the 2.35:1 screen...until it suddenly pops out to fill the screen when the auto aspect kicks in. I love the auto aspect with scope shaped screens...i hate IMAX sections in films. I especially hate it when you get three different aspect ratios in a film..imho it just throws you out of the movie.


----------



## FidelioX

Gordon,
What are the settings to activate this function?

Thank you


----------



## Gordon Fraser

MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>ASPECT SETUP>AUTO ASPECT> and choose the option you want


----------



## Dirk44

thank you for the perfect explaining gordon!

That is the reason, why I ask Jim to try to reduce the delay in that cool feature!


----------



## mskreis

Chromapure now has the option to auto calibrate HDR. I thought I would give it a try. One of the initial steps is setting brightness for HDR. Tom states, though, that this may differ from SDR. How should I set brightness specifically for HDR? 

Jim discusses how to set both optical and digital black level in a recent pdf. To set HDR black level is it simply a matter of having an HDR source as the current input and adjusting optical/digital black per his instructions?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you have a fixed height 2.35:1 or 2.4:1 screen then, with auto aspect control in lumagen set to ON the scaler looks for black bars or for flags in the digital signal to work out what aspect the actual content on screen is. It then automatically switches to that aspect ratio. So imagine this scenatio
> 
> You put in your UHD disc and the splash screen menu comes up asking you if you want to play, select a scene, go to extras etc. The scaler will see this as 16:9 and will be in 16:9 aspect. If you have set up your STYLE setting correctly you will have 16:9 content displayed in middle of the 2.35:1 screen. You then select to play the movie. The movie starts and the scaler sees that it is 2.35:1 content and it automatically switches to 2.35:1 aspect and the image fills the 2.35:1 screen. That is very cool...


I would love to use this feature but if I recall correctly, the Lumagen doesn't just scale (or limit scaling to) 16x9 to fit inside a 2.35:1 fixed screen. It performs scaling on the 2.35:1 image as well (which degrades the image quality). 

If I'm wrong, please correct me!


----------



## Wookii

mskreis said:


> Chromapure now has the option to auto calibrate HDR. I thought I would give it a try. One of the initial steps is setting brightness for HDR. Tom states, though, that this may differ from SDR. How should I set brightness specifically for HDR?


That depends on what you mean by 'brightness'? And what display are you working with?

If you mean peak luminance, this can be whatever you want it to be depending on the performance of your display. I imagine most people just run at or close to the maximum their display can produce, though some may back down lower than this if it has a negative impact on other image factors such as contrast etc.

If you mean black level, this is set in the usual way using an appropriate black level test pattern (I find the R Masciola test disc best for this).

If you mean average picture brightness (which is set initially by the Display Max Light setting) this is the trickiest of all, and something i have a problem with. There are no set standards for calibrating this, and most people do it by eye using real material, with reference to either the approximate comparable levels for the same scene on the SDR blu-ray (though that is not always appropriate because they are mastered differently), or by comparison to a reference display such a a flat panel with high peak luminance (more useful if calibrating a projector).

I am surprised no approximate standard has been determined yet for setting this kind of average brightness for the nit-for-nit range - I would have thought for example that a 40 IRE windowed pattern should be roughly a similar brightness level on most displays, and should fall in the nit-for-nit range on most displays? It might be an interesting exercise if we were all to compare that measure

EDIT: I see you have added to your post. Yes for black level use a black level pattern in the normal way, but with a HDR input. As I say, I prefer flashing patterns for black level, so I prefer the R Masciola patterns.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Ian: No, 2.35:1 material is not scaled at all. it is displayed 1:1 pixel matched unless you are also adding in some shrink etc. If you had an anamorphic lens system then it would have to scale 2.35:1 and 16:9 and 4:3 content..but without a secondary lens 2.35:1 content would be displayed just as if you were using a lens zoom memory.


----------



## FidelioX

Gordon Fraser said:


> Ian: No, 2.35:1 material is not scaled at all. it is displayed 1:1 pixel matched unless you are also adding in some shrink etc. If you had an anamorphic lens system then it would have to scale 2.35:1 and 16:9 and 4:3 content..but without a secondary lens 2.35:1 content would be displayed just as if you were using a lens zoom memory.


Hi Gordon,
I'm in confusion.
I own a 2.35:1 fixed screen.
My projector perfectly fill my screen when watching 2.35:1 content.

When I see 16:9 films I created a shrinked style that I recall with "mem B" of my pro.

This new function can automatically recall my shrinked style?

I ask to you this because I just tried the function on my pro and the results is the opposite... I see the Radiance that zoom in letterbox material.... 

Thank you


----------



## Gordon Fraser

FidelioX said:


> Hi Gordon,
> I'm in confusion.
> I own a 2.35:1 fixed screen.
> My projector perfectly fill my screen when watching 2.35:1 content.
> 
> When I see 16:9 films I created a shrinked style that I recall with "mem B" of my pro.
> 
> This new function can automatically recall my shrinked style?
> 
> I ask to you this because I just tried the function on my pro and the results is the opposite... I see the Radiance that zoom in letterbox material....
> 
> Thank you


this is not a new feature. It's been in the Pro since around day 1 i think....You're scaler is configured differently. You need to change the STYLE setting that is in use on MEMA by following the information in the TECH TIP 16 available for download here

http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


----------



## tibia

*JVC MPC issue*

Up until recently my JVC RS600 (paired with Lumagen Pro Radiance) always reported 1080p source material as 1080p60 or 24 and UHD 4K bluray as 2160x3840. Now it reports 2160x3840 for 1080p source material even though Lumagen reports it is sending 1080p to the projector. The only remedy I have to force the RS600 to report 1080p is to enter Lumagen command MENU 027. I have been through Lumagen's menu structure over and over but have not been able to identify some setting that accounts for this behavior. 

Of course this is not the end of the world. I just don't like not having the choice of using 4K e-shift, or not, with 1080p sources. The only thing I can think of is that something unintended took place in one the more recent Lumagen firmware upgrades.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

tibia said:


> Up until recently my JVC RS600 (paired with Lumagen Pro Radiance) always reported 1080p source material as 1080p60 or 24 and UHD 4K bluray as 2160x3840. Now it reports 2160x3840 for 1080p source material even though Lumagen reports it is sending 1080p to the projector. The only remedy I have to force the RS600 to report 1080p is to enter Lumagen command MENU 027. I have been through Lumagen's menu structure over and over but have not been able to identify some setting that accounts for this behavior.
> 
> Of course this is not the end of the world. I just don't like not having the choice of using 4K e-shift, or not, with 1080p sources. The only thing I can think of is that something unintended took place in one the more recent Lumagen firmware upgrades.


Make sure you email lumagen support with this information.


----------



## thrang

tibia said:


> ...The only thing I can think of is that something unintended took place in one the more recent Lumagen firmware upgrades...


Or maybe it’s the HDMI cable or someone else’s dodgy HDMI implementation!


----------



## tibia

Gordon Fraser said:


> Make sure you email lumagen support with this information.


Done.


----------



## tibia

thrang said:


> Or maybe it’s the HDMI cable or someone else’s dodgy HDMI implementation!


Definitely not cables and I doubt OPPO's HDMI implementation is "dodgy." I do not have an A/V receiver in my system. My HDMI cabling is simply OPPO 103D and 203 (I have both.) to Radiance Pro with 18GHz I/O to RS 600.


----------



## mskreis

For what it’s worth, I noticed something unusual yesterday with reporting of my Directv signal. I had just completed an auto calibration session for HDR using Chromapure and switched back to my Directv source. Before the calibration the signal was correctly reported as rec709 but after calibration it was reported as SDR2020, which I’m sure is not correct. The channel was a standard HD channel and had not changed during my calibration session. 

I’m running Beta 121217. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

tibia said:


> Definitely not cables and I doubt OPPO's HDMI implementation is "dodgy." I do not have an A/V receiver in my system. My HDMI cabling is simply OPPO 103D and 203 (I have both.) to Radiance Pro with 18GHz I/O to RS 600.



The  was referring to what often gets tossed back at you...


----------



## jamesmil

mskreis said:


> For what it’s worth, I noticed something unusual yesterday with reporting of my Directv signal. I had just completed an auto calibration session for HDR using Chromapure and switched back to my Directv source. Before the calibration the signal was correctly reported as rec709 but after calibration it was reported as SDR2020, which I’m sure is not correct. The channel was a standard HD channel and had not changed during my calibration session.
> 
> I’m running Beta 121217.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Actually, if you are using a C61K receiver for DirecTV, it appears since a recent update it is sending bt2020 for everything, even the HD channels -- it reports this way on my LG OLED as well (which has a DirecTV C61K directly connected to it).


----------



## dlinsley

tibia said:


> Definitely not cables and I doubt OPPO's HDMI implementation is "dodgy." I do not have an A/V receiver in my system. My HDMI cabling is simply OPPO 103D and 203 (I have both.) to Radiance Pro with 18GHz I/O to RS 600.


I have a similar setup, and reported a related bug to Jim last week. On mine the Radiance will say it's outputting 3840x2160 (and my RS600 agrees) but the debug menu will also show Vres 2160 but Hres 1920. In this instance, Jim confirmed it's just a reporting issue but that everything else is working fine.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> Ian: No, 2.35:1 material is not scaled at all. it is displayed 1:1 pixel matched unless you are also adding in some shrink etc. If you had an anamorphic lens system then it would have to scale 2.35:1 and 16:9 and 4:3 content..but without a secondary lens 2.35:1 content would be displayed just as if you were using a lens zoom memory.


Gordon, thank you for this. In reading the tech tip on it again, I see it also states the same. I had tried it in the past, but I seemed to be stretching the 2.35 image up to full 16x9 height then shrinking it again. Obviously this was user error on my part because trying it again last night it worked perfectly. 

I will now be able to keep my projector zoomed in for my 2.35 screen and use the 16x9 scaling to be able to properly navigate 16x9 menus or casually watch 16x9 content.

I must admit to being slightly puzzled and disappointed that the 1.85 mode merely provides a wider image and doesn't zoom in at all (leaving tiny black bars on the top and bottom).

Thanks again - I'm very grateful.


----------



## netroamer

Ian_Currie said:


> I must admit to being slightly puzzled and disappointed that the 1.85 mode merely provides a wider image and doesn't zoom in at all (leaving tiny black bars on the top and bottom).[/QUOTE
> 
> If properly set up, the 1:85 fills the screen height without top/bottom bars. I have set up, with Jim P's help all the basic aspect ratios and 2:00-1 and 2:20-1 as different memories.


----------



## fatjulio

Ian_Currie said:


> I must admit to being slightly puzzled and disappointed that the 1.85 mode merely provides a wider image and doesn't zoom in at all (leaving tiny black bars on the top and bottom).


You need to press ALT 1.85 to properly fill the frame. Pressing only 1.85 is for an anamorphic 1.85, and ALT 1.85 is for letterboxed 1.85


----------



## Ian_Currie

fatjulio said:


> You need to press ALT 1.85 to properly fill the frame. Pressing only 1.85 is for an anamorphic 1.85, and ALT 1.85 is for letterboxed 1.85


ALT??? Oh, I'll be darned, never noticed that button before and would never have guessed anyway - thank you!


----------



## fatjulio

ALT 2.35 gives you 2.40 too.


----------



## uderman

Any ETA on pip/pop and noise reduction?
Any plans for improving deinterlacing(diagonal filtering)?
Any plans for 33x33x33?
What will be the capabilities of the noise reduction? Mosquito only? Temporal/spatial?


----------



## msleb

Has anyone had issues using DirecTV 4K with a Radiance Pro inline? My Macro turns off the PJ, Radiance Pro, and AVR when the room is off. I have tried to record a few 4K HDR programs on DTV but it is always down-res'd to 1080. I have no problem viewing live content in 4K after I manually go back into the settings and tell the DTV box that my TV is 4 K capable. 

I think what may be happening is the DTV looks downstream when a 4K program is to be recorded, and since the Radiance Pro is powered off, it doesnt see the downstream HDMI 2.2 so the DTV box 'thinks' my TV isnt 4K compatible.

Has anyone else with DTV and Lumagen experienced that?

I suppose a simple enough work around could be to leave my Lumagen Radiance Pro powered on at all times, but that seems wasteful from an electricity standpoint, and potentially bad in the long run for the RP. I also suppose I might not only need to leave the RP powered on, but also to the proper DTV input in order to give the DTV box the green light to record in 4K, HDMI 2.2.

Any thoughts to all of this?
Mark


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

msleb said:


> Has anyone had issues using DirecTV 4K with a Radiance Pro inline? My Macro turns off the PJ, Radiance Pro, and AVR when the room is off. I have tried to record a few 4K HDR programs on DTV but it is always down-res'd to 1080. I have no problem viewing live content in 4K after I manually go back into the settings and tell the DTV box that my TV is 4 K capable.
> 
> I think what may be happening is the DTV looks downstream when a 4K program is to be recorded, and since the Radiance Pro is powered off, it doesnt see the downstream HDMI 2.2 so the DTV box 'thinks' my TV isnt 4K compatible.
> 
> Has anyone else with DTV and Lumagen experienced that?
> 
> I suppose a simple enough work around could be to leave my Lumagen Radiance Pro powered on at all times, but that seems wasteful from an electricity standpoint, and potentially bad in the long run for the RP. I also suppose I might not only need to leave the RP powered on, but also to the proper DTV input in order to give the DTV box the green light to record in 4K, HDMI 2.2.
> 
> Any thoughts to all of this?
> Mark


I have the Radiance Pro, Genie 61 and the mini 4k box and I can put Radane Pro o standby and record Directv 4k no problem!


----------



## SJHT

Not sure DTV should care as even people without a VP, turn off their TVs or audio processors if they are running HDMI direct. Strange. SJ


----------



## msleb

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I have the Radiance Pro, Genie 61 and the mini 4k box and I can put Radane Pro o standby and record Directv 4k no problem!


Back to the drawing board then....


----------



## msleb

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I have the Radiance Pro, Genie 61 and the mini 4k box and I can put Radane Pro o standby and record Directv 4k no problem!





SJHT said:


> Not sure DTV should care as even people without a VP, turn off their TVs or audio processors if they are running HDMI direct. Strange. SJ


True... I've had this problem, with my Apple Tv also, where I can come back to the source after a period of time (days, not weeks or months) and it will say my display is not 4K compliant, which I assume they mean to say they dont detect HDCP 2.2. I either re-boot or just go through settings again and all is good. 

Anyone else with a similar experience and a fix?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I have the Radiance Pro, Genie 61 and the mini 4k box and I can put Radane Pro on standby and record Directv 4k no problem!


WOOPS! I have the Genie 54, not 61!!!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

For those of us using the Radiance Pro with a Sony VLP-VW5000 laser projector, or its little brother 885/760:

Input Lag Reduction
The VLP-VW5000 manual states:

Input Lag Reduction:

Reduces the delay of the display for a video.

On: Shortens the time to display the input video image; effective for increasing the performance of the display reaction speed when using an external controller, etc. 

Off: Turns the Input Lag Reduction function off.

Tip: When Input Lag Reduction is set to "On", the following items cannot be set: "Combination", "Smooth High" and "True Cinema" of "Motion Flow".

There's so much to learn with this projector, and so far, I haven't seen anyone mention this feature in this thread!

Bottom line is for those of us using a Lumagen Radiance Pro with the VLP-VW5000, shoudn't we be using this feature set to On? Are you using this feature set to On? Have you tried using this feature set to On?

Having played with both Motion Flow and Reality Creation (which my calibrator Ken Whitcomb set to Off), and having now played with leaving both Motion Flow and Reality Creation set to Off and with Input Lag Reduction set to On, I notice faster switching when inputs and scan rates change, and my inititial impression last night watching DirecTV is that the picture is at its best as well. Objectively this makes sense. The Radiance Pro will handle both scaling (the projector's setting for this is Reality Creation) and refresh rate (the projector's setting for this is Motion Flow) and apparently setting the projector's Input Lag Reduction feature to On minimizes the projector doing any monkeying with the scan and refresh rates again! I will still of course play with this some more over the next week but this is my initial impression. Note when Input Lag Reduction is set to On, Reality Creation is no longer on the menu, and the only Motion Flow Settings are Off and Impulse (per manual, reproduces original picture quality and provides cinema like picture, which may flicker).


----------



## jamesmil

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Bottom line is for those of us using a Lumagen Radiance Pro with the VLP-VW5000, shoudn't we be using this feature set to On? Are you using this feature set to On? Have you tried using this feature set to On?


Reducing input lag is important if you play video games on your display, as reduced input lag can make the gameplay feel more responsive. If you turn Input Lag Reduction on, you should also experiment with enabling "Genlock - Fast" on the Radiance Pro input for the inputs connected to gaming devices, as that further reduces the input latency caused by the Radiance Pro. 

If you aren't a gamer, then there isn't any real benefit to enabling an Input Lag Reduction feature on the projector. There may still be reasons to enable Genlock on the Radiance however (potentially faster input switch/sync for example).

Hope that helps!


----------



## thrang

I am struggling with the Radiance and the 5000 using the 1212 firmware with the newer 18ghz output code. The system will never video sync on startup, regardless of which device starts first. Hard reboots of the Radiance don't even help.

The only way to get a picture is to drop back to the original firmware..if I go back to the new firmware at that point, I'll also get video, until such time as I shut the system down. On the next boot, no video if the Radiance starts with newer 18 ghz firmware...bizarre. Have spend countless hours on many permutations or start cycle, cables, and ancient Indian chants.

The only this is this: if I set the Radiance to start to a 9 ghz/1080p output setting, I DO get video. But as soon as I switch to an 18ghz/4k output, its lost, and I can't even successfully go back to the 9ghz/1080p output. I have to do the downgrade/upgrade cycle of the microcode.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

I am using the old 18 GHz firmware as well as I've had issues with the newer 18 GHz firmware on getting picture when I switch source inputs on my VW5000.


----------



## Roland Janus

thrang said:


> I am struggling with the Radiance and the 5000 using the 1212 firmware with the newer 18ghz output code. The system will never video sync on startup, regardless of which device starts first. Hard reboots of the Radiance don't even help.
> 
> The only way to get a picture is to drop back to the original firmware..if I go back to the new firmware at that point, I'll also get video, until such time as I shut the system down. On the next boot, no video if the Radiance starts with newer 18 ghz firmware...bizarre. Have spend countless hours on many permutations or start cycle, cables, and ancient Indian chants.
> 
> The only this is this: if I set the Radiance to start to a 9 ghz/1080p output setting, I DO get video. But as soon as I switch to an 18ghz/4k output, its lost, and I can't even successfully go back to the 9ghz/1080p output. I have to do the downgrade/upgrade cycle of the microcode.


I also don't get a picture when using the new firmware when turning them on, went back to the old one.

-R


----------



## thrang

Roland Janus said:


> I also don't get a picture when using the new firmware when turning them on, went back to the old one.
> 
> -R


Interesting...I was under the impressing I'm the only one....any other feedback with the Radiance Pro/5000 using the newer output microcode?

Thanks


----------



## Mike_WI

thrang said:


> Interesting...I was under the impressing I'm the only one....any other feedback with the Radiance Pro/5000 using the newer output microcode?
> 
> Thanks


I am on the Beta 121217 FW but have been to scared to toggle to new 18 GHz FW mode.
Projector: JVC RS520

Mike


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> I am on the Beta 121217 FW but have been to scared to toggle to new 18 GHz FW mode.
> Projector: JVC RS520
> 
> Mike


Curious if you switch to the new microcode, then shut everything down - what happens on system boot?...worse case is no picture, just revert back to the original microcode and you'll be back...


----------



## Roland Janus

thrang said:


> Interesting...I was under the impressing I'm the only one....any other feedback with the Radiance Pro/5000 using the newer output microcode?
> 
> Thanks


When it worked, after the update itself and then enabling the new code I didn't notice anything.
Once I had the sync issue I never went back, to annoying.


----------



## SJHT

I have been running the new firmware my Sony 885 and have not had a single issue. Should be basically the same as the 5000? I also really didn't have any issues with the old one as well. SJ


----------



## thrang

SJHT said:


> I have been running the new firmware my Sony 885 and have not had a single issue. Should be basically the same as the 5000? I also really didn't have any issues with the old one as well. SJ


Who knows...you are running 1212 with the new 18ghz firmware and have no boot issues?

What’s your startup sequence and are you running at 9 or 18 ghz output?

Thanks


----------



## SJHT

thrang said:


> Who knows...you are running 1212 with the new 18ghz firmware and have no boot issues?
> 
> What’s your startup sequence and are you running at 9 or 18 ghz output?
> 
> Thanks


Sorry, running on the 1210 pro firmware, but have loaded the latest HDMI output firmware. Anyway, I'm running 18 ghz output. My startup sequence is projector first and Pro last. I was told by Patrick to work backwards from my projector to the source. My startup defaults to my Dish Network STB which is "always on" so source last doesn't matter. Running 4:2:2 output for everything (4K60 and 4K24). SJ


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> For those of us using the Radiance Pro with a Sony VLP-VW5000 laser projector, or its little brother 885/760:
> 
> Input Lag Reduction
> The VLP-VW5000 manual states:
> 
> Input Lag Reduction:
> 
> Reduces the delay of the display for a video.
> 
> On: Shortens the time to display the input video image; effective for increasing the performance of the display reaction speed when using an external controller, etc.
> 
> Off: Turns the Input Lag Reduction function off.
> 
> Tip: When Input Lag Reduction is set to "On", the following items cannot be set: "Combination", "Smooth High" and "True Cinema" of "Motion Flow".
> 
> There's so much to learn with this projector, and so far, I haven't seen anyone mention this feature in this thread!
> 
> Bottom line is for those of us using a Lumagen Radiance Pro with the VLP-VW5000, shoudn't we be using this feature set to On? Are you using this feature set to On? Have you tried using this feature set to On?
> 
> Having played with both Motion Flow and Reality Creation (which my calibrator Ken Whitcomb set to Off), and having now played with leaving both Motion Flow and Reality Creation set to Off and with Input Lag Reduction set to On, I notice faster switching when inputs and scan rates change, and my inititial impression last night watching DirecTV is that the picture is at its best as well. Objectively this makes sense. The Radiance Pro will handle both scaling (the projector's setting for this is Reality Creation) and refresh rate (the projector's setting for this is Motion Flow) and apparently setting the projector's Input Lag Reduction feature to On minimizes the projector doing any monkeying with the scan and refresh rates again! I will still of course play with this some more over the next week but this is my initial impression. Note when Input Lag Reduction is set to On, Reality Creation is no longer on the menu, and the only Motion Flow Settings are Off and Impulse (per manual, reproduces original picture quality and provides cinema like picture, which may flicker).





Art Sonneborn said:


> According to Sony engineers _Reality Creation _should be set to approximately 30 on resolution and 10 on noise reduction otherwise the projector actually is filtering the image and it may not have as sharp an image when set to off. Bottom line is resolution at 30 is similar to zero with other projectors. Now again this is based on information provided by Wolfgang who owned the first production 5000 unit.
> 
> Art


I am finding Art is correct. Previously I had Reality Creation either off or on with different settings than Art has noted.


----------



## jtjjen

thrang said:


> Interesting...I was under the impressing I'm the only one....any other feedback with the Radiance Pro/5000 using the newer output microcode?
> 
> Thanks


I have VW5000 and running Radiance Pro firmware version 121017 and using the updated firmware for 18GHz cards with no problems. I have been using this for ~2 wks. One possible difference in my set up is I only have one set of 18GHz Input/output cards.


----------



## bearcat2017

Just curious what the pros/cons when using all the inputs of the radiance pro + audio going to the receiver...vs....having all the inputs going to the receiver and outputting into input one of the radiance? Why would it make a difference if you do no converting through the receiver and just passing through?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

jtjjen said:


> I have VW5000 and running Radiance Pro firmware version 121017 and using the updated firmware for 18GHz cards with no problems. I have been using this for ~2 wks. One possible difference in my set up is I only have one set of 18GHz Input/output cards.


So you're using microcode Menu 0851 (newer) not menu 0850 (original)?


----------



## jtjjen

thrang said:


> So you're using microcode Menu 0851 (newer) not menu 0850 (original)?


Yes


----------



## turls

bearcat2017 said:


> Just curious what the pros/cons when using all the inputs of the radiance pro + audio going to the receiver...vs....having all the inputs going to the receiver and outputting into input one of the radiance? Why would it make a difference if you do no converting through the receiver and just passing through?


I have to keep reminding myself never to do this because when PiP/PoP eventually shows up I want those inputs processed through the Radiance Pro so I can actually use the feature...also what about different settings for different inputs? For example gaming consoles vs satellite receiver...I guess virtual inputs would be an option in that case.


----------



## dlinsley

bearcat2017 said:


> Just curious what the pros/cons when using all the inputs of the radiance pro + audio going to the receiver...vs....having all the inputs going to the receiver and outputting into input one of the radiance? Why would it make a difference if you do no converting through the receiver and just passing through?


I swapped the ordering a few months ago while trying to debug an issue (and swapped back eventually), and I have less resyncing when the Radiance is connected to the sources. As an example, with my DirecTV receiver if I change from a 720p channel to a 1080i, there is no resync but when fed through my Anthem receiver first there was.


----------



## Mike_WI

thrang said:


> Curious if you switch to the new microcode, then shut everything down - what happens on system boot?...worse case is no picture, just revert back to the original microcode and you'll be back...


I'm curious too, but like the stability for now.
I haven't had much free time lately for home theater experiments.

Mike


----------



## dinamigym

thrang said:


> Interesting...I was under the impressing I'm the only one....any other feedback with the Radiance Pro/5000 using the newer output microcode?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks




I’ve been running the newer output microcode with RP/5000 with better sync/switching results than I had with the older code. I will say I have always had the best results on initial power up when I select my Strato first and then switch to other sources after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cdnscg

What benefit, if any, would a Radiance Pro have in processing HDR material from a Sony X800 player to a 4k (but not HDR) 300ES pj?


----------



## Alyaji

cdnscg said:


> What benefit, if any, would a Radiance Pro have in processing HDR material from a Sony X800 player to a 4k (but not HDR) 300ES pj?


 
With proper calibration (3D LUT), the Radiance Pro brings two key benefits : first of all, your pj uses the Bt709 colour space commomly used in Blu Ray discs but it does not display properly sources that use the Bt2020 colour space (used in 4K UHD Blu Ray discs). The Radiance Pro allows you to put into a 709 container the video signal of a 4K UHD source coded in 2020. Second benefit, the Pro HDR intensity mapping allows you to convert an HDR source into SDR. Since your pj is not HDR it's a big +


I've got a Sony 1100ES (not HDR, not 2020 but DCI-P3) and the Pro allows me to take full advantage of HDR2020 sources mapped to DCI-P3 via an SDR709 container


----------



## cdnscg

Alyaji said:


> With proper calibration (3D LUT), the Radiance Pro brings two key benefits : first of all, your pj uses the Bt709 colour space commomly used in Blu Ray discs but it does not display properly sources that use the Bt2020 colour space (used in 4K UHD Blu Ray discs). The Radiance Pro allows you to put into a 709 container the video signal of a 4K UHD source coded in 2020. Second benefit, the Pro HDR intensity mapping allows you to convert an HDR source into SDR. Since your pj is not HDR it's a big +
> 
> 
> I've got a Sony 1100ES (not HDR, not 2020 but DCI-P3) and the Pro allows me to take full advantage of HDR2020 sources mapped to DCI-P3 via an SDR709 container


The 3D LUT is a separate software I assume. I don't have the equipment to perform a proper calibration and was hoping the Radiance Pro would handle this shortfall.


----------



## Alyaji

cdnscg said:


> The 3D LUT is a separate software I assume. I don't have the equipment to perform a proper calibration and was hoping the Radiance Pro would handle this shortfall.


You need a professional calibrator to perform this, with proper equipment and software.
If your pj is in a dedicated room (dark) it's money well spent


----------



## cdnscg

Alyaji said:


> You need a professional calibrator to perform this, with proper equipment and software.
> If your pj is in a dedicated room (dark) it's money well spent


I've had this done already, but hesitant($) to do again for the Radiance.


----------



## Alyaji

cdnscg said:


> I've had this done already, but hesitant($) to do again for the Radiance.


If you’re ready to invest into a Radiance Pro then the cost of calibration isn’t that much to add. I don’t know of any other way to do HDR on a non-HDR projector. So if you want to take advantage of all the available or future 4K HDR sources (HDR10, HDR10+, HLG) without replacing your pj that’s the only option.

Note that the Pro only does HDR10 at the moment but Lumagen have plans to support HDR10+ and HLG in the near future (via fw upgrade). The only format that is unlikely to be supported is Dolby Vision because of their proprietary policy.


----------



## bobof

Chad B said:


> The JVCs, when calibrated with the JVC autocal and then normal ISF calibration with a reference accuracy meter and using Arve's tool for HDR gamma, can give results that are so good that, measurement wise, a LUT cal just won't improve it. I have done many SDR LUT calibrations with Lumagens, and I own an eeColor LUT box and know what their capabilities are.
> 
> I firmly believe the LUT calibration in a Radiance Pro isn't going to improve color, grayscale, or gamma accuracy vs the JVC calibration I described above. That leaves HDR tone mapping. Will it give better performance than importing a true custom curve with Arve's tool? I doubt it, because with Arve's tool you can do just about anything you want with excellent precision.
> 
> With the first RS4500 I did I couldn't get Arve's tool to work, but I've figured it out and got it working well now.
> 
> I do recognize that the scaling in the Pro can be advantageous. Also, the latest version of ChromaPure (which I have) includes what will hopefully be a good workflow for calibrating HDR on the Radiance Pro. I had not been impressed with what was offered in that department by the other software I usually use. There is a chance CP's implementation will give me the results I had been hoping to see.
> 
> I am not necessarily refusing to calibrate a JVC with the Radiance Pro; I'm mainly just trying to give honest answers when customers ask me if it's worth it to add one to their JVC PJ.


Do you have some data to back this up? I'd love to see some numbers as to what is achievable across the gamut on the latest JVC units in the hands of an expert pro calibrator. Someone shared some X9500 data with me earlier and the Calman colour checker was good (better than I thought possible out of a non-LUT PJ) but significantly worse than I achieve on my old X30 with a Lumagen 2143 and a < 256 point 10 minute profile using Lightspace (if you know which mode to use, this rather insanely works as there is a mode on at least my X30 which though inaccurate in all colour temperatures is very linear).

I'm interested as I have a Vertex, a Lumagen 2143, and JVC X30, but have on the way a new JVC X7900 and a Pro 4242 I picked up used for a new dedicated room build.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen & Oppo FW UDP20X-56-0124B*

I haven't played with this yet, but downloaded yesterday.

Any comments from Lumagen owners on how to use the new Oppo UDP-203/205 settings from the new firmware?

http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/blu-ray-udp-203-Support.aspx
Latest Public Beta Test Version

Release date: January 26, 2018.
Category: Latest Public Beta Test Release


Main Version: UDP20X-56-0124B
Loader Version: TF0035
MCU Version: MCU203-01-1118

http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/UDP203-firmware-56-0124B.aspx



> Release Notes:
> This release is for the OPPO UDP-20x 4K UHD Blu-ray Disc Player.
> 
> Comparing to the current Official release version UDP20X-54-1127, the major changes included in this version are:
> 
> *Added four HDR to SDR modes to improve HDR to SDR conversion.*
> Added a "Media Info Lookup" setting under Network Setup. This setting allows the user to toggle media file metadata retrieval on and off.
> Added support for slow motion playback in A-B repeat mode.
> Added a detailed info page for the HDMI In source.
> Improved HDMI In compatibility with HTPCs.
> Resolved a playback issue with UHD title "Blade Runner 2049".
> Resolved an color shift issue in the 21:9 AR mode.
> General fixes and disc compatibility improvements based on recent and upcoming UHD Blu-ray releases as well as user-submitted samples.


----------



## D_B_0673

Mike_WI said:


> I haven't played with this yet, but downloaded yesterday.
> 
> Any comments from Lumagen owners on how to use the new Oppo UDP-203/205 settings from the new firmware?
> 
> http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/blu-ray-udp-203-Support.aspx
> Latest Public Beta Test Version
> 
> Release date: January 26, 2018.
> Category: Latest Public Beta Test Release
> 
> 
> Main Version: UDP20X-56-0124B
> Loader Version: TF0035
> MCU Version: MCU203-01-1118
> 
> http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/UDP203-firmware-56-0124B.aspx


I would suggest that you don't use any of those settings in the OPPO. Set it to Source Direct and let all processing be performed by the Lumagen.
Do you really think the OPPO will do a better job than the Lumagen?


----------



## D_B_0673

Chad B said:


> The JVCs, when calibrated with the JVC autocal and then normal ISF calibration with a reference accuracy meter and using Arve's tool for HDR gamma, can give results that are so good that, measurement wise, a LUT cal just won't improve it. I have done many SDR LUT calibrations with Lumagens, and I own an eeColor LUT box and know what their capabilities are.
> 
> I firmly believe the LUT calibration in a Radiance Pro isn't going to improve color, grayscale, or gamma accuracy vs the JVC calibration I described above. That leaves HDR tone mapping. Will it give better performance than importing a true custom curve with Arve's tool? I doubt it, because with Arve's tool you can do just about anything you want with excellent precision.
> 
> With the first RS4500 I did I couldn't get Arve's tool to work, but I've figured it out and got it working well now.
> 
> I do recognize that the scaling in the Pro can be advantageous. Also, the latest version of ChromaPure (which I have) includes what will hopefully be a good workflow for calibrating HDR on the Radiance Pro. I had not been impressed with what was offered in that department by the other software I usually use. There is a chance CP's implementation will give me the results I had been hoping to see.
> 
> I am not necessarily refusing to calibrate a JVC with the Radiance Pro; I'm mainly just trying to give honest answers when customers ask me if it's worth it to add one to their JVC PJ.


You did refuse to calibrate my setup from within the Lumagen. You stated you were going to calibrate it from within the JVC, which you certainly can do, I just wanted to use the Lumagen as I believe it would be better. I did not purchase it to have it be a input switcher only.
I wanted you to do my calibration, as I believe you do an excellent job, but I wanted the Lumagen to be front and center in the processing


----------



## Mike_WI

*Oppo modes*



D_B_0673 said:


> I would suggest that you don't use any of those settings in the OPPO. Set it to Source Direct and let all processing be performed by the Lumagen.


That is how I am currently set up.



D_B_0673 said:


> Do you really think the OPPO will do a better job than the Lumagen?


No. Just curious to see what the different options do.
Besides my own HT setup I have other TVs and potential for other UDP players in my house.
Also, others ask me about setup options and most don't want to pay for a Lumagen.

Just curious.

Mike


----------



## turls

I know we won't get a fraction of this functionality on the Lumagen Pro for PiP/PoP (Apple calls theirs "multicast"), but this is a good demonstration of what is out there. Problem with this on AppleTV currently is it only works with a very limited subset of content:


----------



## Ash Sharma

Does the Radiance Pro provide any settings that benefits to 3D Blu Ray movies on 3D capable projectors?
Thanks.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> Does the Radiance Pro provide any settings that benefits to 3D Blu Ray movies on 3D capable projectors?
> Thanks.


 You can do a full LUT calibration specifically for 3D to ensure you have the best calibration possible for it. Outside of that, not aware of any special features.


----------



## Kris Deering

Been doing some investigating into UHD metadata. For Lumagen users that take advantage of the intensity mapping, how this is implemented hinges on the metadata that is reported from the source. Jim and company have gone a long way in trying to ensure the Lumagen will intelligently decide how to apply the tone map based on this info, but the accuracy and quality of that info is not always the best. 


I asked some Strato users to post what the metadata coming from the Strato based movies says so I could compare to their disc counterparts. Unfortunately, they are reporting MaxCLL numbers that are WAY off, which would make the Lumagen use the wrong tone map and clip point. This would give you significantly different performance than playing the movie from a disc. I then checked a lot of the same titles on the new Apple TV 4K and see it has a lot of the same issues as well. The only work around would be to force a MaxCLL level on a title by title basis using the Menu0533 workaround. 


This is exactly what I was afraid of when HDR was announced. Trusting the studios to do things correctly when it comes to metadata is a no win situation as they've demonstrated time and time again that they cannot be trusted when it comes to this stuff. I have yet to see a single studio that consistently does the HDR metadata correct for all titles.


----------



## turls

Kris Deering said:


> You can do a full LUT calibration specifically for 3D to ensure you have the best calibration possible for it. Outside of that, not aware of any special features.


Is that an option with ChromaPure or only from professional calibrators? I'm confused as to how any automated system would take into account the reduced brightness introduced by the glasses.


----------



## Kris Deering

turls said:


> Is that an option with ChromaPure or only from professional calibrators? I'm confused as to how any automated system would take into account the reduced brightness introduced by the glasses.


You would do a calibration with the measurement taken through the glasses so that you can ensure the brightness you are seeing is what is desired (if possible) and that the color/gamma shift of the glasses is taken into account. Any calibration software that works with the Lumagen can achieve this, the Lumagen just has an option for automatically shifting to a different calibration with a 3D signal.


----------



## alex_t

Kris Deering said:


> Been doing some investigating into UHD metadata. For Lumagen users that take advantage of the intensity mapping, how this is implemented hinges on the metadata that is reported from the source. Jim and company have gone a long way in trying to ensure the Lumagen will intelligently decide how to apply the tone map based on this info, but the accuracy and quality of that info is not always the best.
> 
> 
> I asked some Strato users to post what the metadata coming from the Strato based movies says so I could compare to their disc counterparts. Unfortunately, they are reporting MaxCLL numbers that are WAY off, which would make the Lumagen use the wrong tone map and clip point. This would give you significantly different performance than playing the movie from a disc. I then checked a lot of the same titles on the new Apple TV 4K and see it has a lot of the same issues as well. The only work around would be to force a MaxCLL level on a title by title basis using the Menu0533 workaround.
> 
> 
> This is exactly what I was afraid of when HDR was announced. Trusting the studios to do things correctly when it comes to metadata is a no win situation as they've demonstrated time and time again that they cannot be trusted when it comes to this stuff. I have yet to see a single studio that consistently does the HDR metadata correct for all titles.


Hello.

I agree with you that data provided by media (and source) cannot be trusted. I know Jim has announced somewhere in the thread that they are considering to add a real time evaluation of light intensity on a frame to frame basis (evaluation performed by zones if I have well understood). As this announcement was public, there is a chance it is finally implemented. It would be the best way for managing tone mapping and, I guess, even better than future HDR10+ (metadata dynamic).


----------



## Kris Deering

alex_t said:


> Hello.
> 
> I agree with you that data provided by media (and source) cannot be trusted. I know Jim has announced somewhere in the thread that they are considering to add a real time evaluation of light intensity on a frame to frame basis (evaluation performed by zones if I have well understood). As this announcement was public, there is a chance it is finally implemented. It would be the best way for managing tone mapping and, I guess, even better than future HDR10+ (metadata dynamic).


That is the goal. HDR10+ would probably be better (so long as the data was CORRECT) as it would take any guess work out of Lumagen. The Lumagen wouldn't have to figure out a good starting point, when it transitions from one title to another, etc.


----------



## westmd

Did anybody compare the new HDR to SDR modes including the possibility to choose color gamut and target luminance? I tested it both for UHD BluRay as well as HDR content from the Apple TV. I found the result really great and wonder how this stands against comparable possibilities from the Lumagen?


----------



## cdnscg

I read the following about the Radiance Pro:

'features include the best quality anamorphic screen support for HD and 4k UHD sources without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens'

Does the Radiance help with the loss of brightness that I understand an anamorphic lens helps with?


----------



## Kris Deering

westmd said:


> Did anybody compare the new HDR to SDR modes including the possibility to choose color gamut and target luminance? I tested it both for UHD BluRay as well as HDR content from the Apple TV. I found the result really great and wonder how this stands against comparable possibilities from the Lumagen?


The Lumagen's intensity mapping does a better job across the board and requires less intervention from the end user.


----------



## Kris Deering

cdnscg said:


> I read the following about the Radiance Pro:
> 
> 'features include the best quality anamorphic screen support for HD and 4k UHD sources without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens'
> 
> Does the Radiance help with the loss of brightness that I understand an anamorphic lens helps with?


No


----------



## Mike_WI

cdnscg said:


> I read the following about the Radiance Pro:
> 
> 'features include the best quality anamorphic screen support for HD and 4k UHD sources without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens'
> 
> Does the Radiance help with the loss of brightness that I understand an anamorphic lens helps with?


I have a Lumagen Radiance Pro and an anamorphic lens.
The Lumagen does a lot of things, but it doesn't create pixels/light.
Many people likely wouldn't have benefited from an anamorphic lens with newer and brighter projectors, but HDR may be reversing that.
(my HT link has pics of what I have done)

Mike


----------



## mskreis

Kris Deering said:


> The Lumagen's intensity mapping does a better job across the board and requires less intervention from the end user.




With the latest version of Chromapure I autocalibrated HDR on my rs640. I’m using the Pro’s IM with Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR. Overall I’m pretty pleased with what I’m seeing. I’m curious to know if you are doing the same on your 4500 or using Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

I am using 3D LUT = SDR


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Been doing some investigating into UHD metadata. For Lumagen users that take advantage of the intensity mapping, how this is implemented hinges on the metadata that is reported from the source. Jim and company have gone a long way in trying to ensure the Lumagen will intelligently decide how to apply the tone map based on this info, but the accuracy and quality of that info is not always the best.
> 
> 
> I asked some Strato users to post what the metadata coming from the Strato based movies says so I could compare to their disc counterparts. Unfortunately, they are reporting MaxCLL numbers that are WAY off, which would make the Lumagen use the wrong tone map and clip point. This would give you significantly different performance than playing the movie from a disc. I then checked a lot of the same titles on the new Apple TV 4K and see it has a lot of the same issues as well. The only work around would be to force a MaxCLL level on a title by title basis using the Menu0533 workaround.
> 
> 
> This is exactly what I was afraid of when HDR was announced. Trusting the studios to do things correctly when it comes to metadata is a no win situation as they've demonstrated time and time again that they cannot be trusted when it comes to this stuff. I have yet to see a single studio that consistently does the HDR metadata correct for all titles.


Yes, its a bit of a mess - I highlighted the issues on Kaleidescape some time ago - I reported to Kaleidescape also, but they didn't seem particularly interested, sayiong that's what the studios send them, so thats that.

As Alex says, hopefully once Jim releases Lumagen's own dynamic tone mapping with individual 'read-ahead' frame-by-frame assessment, reliance on incorrect metadata will be a thing of the past.


----------



## SJHT

Does the Pro have the horsepower to handle dynamic tone mapping? SJ


----------



## Wookii

SJHT said:


> Does the Pro have the horsepower to handle dynamic tone mapping? SJ


Only Jim will know that for sure, but I wouldn't have thought he would have referred to it publicly if he didn't think it could do it. Given we haven't seen a firmware update since mid-December, if I was a betting man I'd wager Jim and Patrick a feverishly working away on something substantial.


----------



## cdnscg

Just discovered the Radiance Pro goes for over $6k. That's quite the investment. More than many pj's on the market.


----------



## wjchan

cdnscg said:


> Just discovered the Radiance Pro goes for over $6k. That's quite the investment. More than many pj's on the market.


If you have multiple TV’s you will be amortizing the cost over several units


----------



## Mike_WI

wjchan said:


> If you have multiple TV’s you will be amortizing the cost over several units


That is only true [splitting the cost] if your TVs all run through a central video processor like the Lumagen. Many houses are not set up that way.


----------



## wjchan

SJHT said:


> Count me in. 2nd quarter would be great. SJ


I'm interested as well.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Kris Deering said:


> The only work around would be to force a MaxCLL level on a title by title basis using the Menu0533 workaround.


What is the Menu0533 workaround? Does it let you enter a MaxCLL value?


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> What is the Menu0533 workaround? Does it let you enter a MaxCLL value?


It's a diagnostic tool that they built in, but yes, it lets you enter in a MaxCLL to override whatever it is seeing.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*



Ian_Currie said:


> What is the Menu0533 workaround? Does it let you enter a MaxCLL value?


See...

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
Press Menu then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler"
*0533* *- Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL*
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0871 - Allow 4k24, 25 or 1080p50, 60 output only
0872 - Allow 4k24, 25, 50, 60 output only
0873 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (9 GHz max)
0874 - Allow 4k50 or 4k59.94 output only (18 GHz max)
0910 - service mode
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

*Edits by:* colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, et alia


----------



## bobof

Is there any mode for the 18G out card which keeps audio and video on the 18G out and ignores the 9G out?
It doesn't seem to be possible to set the card out to NB (which is what I want). If I set it to AB and don't connect anything to the 9G audio output I don't seem to get anything better than stereo; if I connect up the 9G to the AVR then full format support is restored.


----------



## thrang

Anyone having audio crackling outputting Linear PCM from a PS4 to the Pro?

Any new firmware coming soon? Hoping for the big momma with frame by frame tone mapping...


----------



## jamesmil

bobof said:


> Is there any mode for the 18G out card which keeps audio and video on the 18G out and ignores the 9G out?
> It doesn't seem to be possible to set the card out to NB (which is what I want). If I set it to AB and don't connect anything to the 9G audio output I don't seem to get anything better than stereo; if I connect up the 9G to the AVR then full format support is restored.


The 18G out card has two 18G HDMI ports on it, but the second one can only send Audio. On the 44xx its possible to have a second output card for two additional ports as well (on mine, this second one is a 9Ghz out).

On your 18ghz outs (lets call them out3 and out4), out4 will default to Video only, and out3 will default to Audio only. You can change out4 to Both Video+Audio (which is what I do), but I don't think you can set out3 to "None" (Jim will have to correct me if I'm wrong here). 

If the only HDMI cable connected is connected to out4, the EDID for audio should come from that. If another HDMI cable is also connected, then Audio EDID will come from either out3 or out1 (if you have a second output card installed). However, its best to not leave the audio format selection up to EDID discovery anyway, and instead issue the following key sequence:

MENU 0944

(followed by selecting Save in the settings menu). This will tell the Radiance Pro to always accept and pass every audio format on to the output. This works regardless of whether your output card is a 18Ghz version or 9Ghz version.

Hope that helps!


----------



## bobof

jamesmil said:


> The 18G out card has two 18G HDMI ports on it, but the second one can only send Audio. On the 44xx its possible to have a second output card for two additional ports as well (on mine, this second one is a 9Ghz out).
> 
> On your 18ghz outs (lets call them out3 and out4), out4 will default to Video only, and out3 will default to Audio only. You can change out4 to Both Video+Audio (which is what I do), but I don't think you can set out3 to "None" (Jim will have to correct me if I'm wrong here).
> 
> If the only HDMI cable connected is connected to out4, the EDID for audio should come from that. If another HDMI cable is also connected, then Audio EDID will come from either out3 or out1 (if you have a second output card installed).


Thanks for the reply I'm on a 4242 with 18G in x 4 / 18G+9GA out. That's what I figured it >should< do, but it didn't seem to work that way in practice (caveat - it was late and I wasn't really looking at this in that much detail - was trying to get something else done at the time). It looked like it was passing a stereo-only EDID to the sources in the absence of something connected to the 9G (1) out. Once I put an HD-audio capable EDID on the 9G (1) output HD audio started to work again.



jamesmil said:


> However, its best to not leave the audio format selection up to EDID discovery anyway, and instead issue the following key sequence:
> 
> MENU 0944
> 
> (followed by selecting Save in the settings menu). This will tell the Radiance Pro to always accept and pass every audio format on to the output. This works regardless of whether your output card is a 18Ghz version or 9Ghz version.


Agree, and that is how my 2143 is setup. Of course the options you'd like to use for this in the menus are currently not implemented... . I hadn't realised there was a code for this. I'll give that a go. Any idea what formats exactly this enables? Are things like DSD etc enabled?

I probably won't actually end up using it like this anyway - due to having only 4 inputs and needing more I'm more likely to connect it at the AVR out for the majority of sources with just the UHD disc player video on a dedicated input.


----------



## LJG

It really is uncharacteristically quiet from Lumagen as far as firmware updates, and from Jim posting in this thread, I wonder what's up? Hopefully big firmware update brewing.


----------



## thrang

LJG said:


> It really is uncharacteristically quiet from Lumagen as far as firmware updates, and from Jim posting in this thread, I wonder what's up? Hopefully big firmware update brewing.


I'm guessing they've been dealing with the new 18 ghz microcode as well, since its usability seems to be all over the map for people.

But yes, a hello from Jim and a little update as to what's coming would be great!


----------



## baseball0618

mskreis said:


> With the latest version of Chromapure I autocalibrated HDR on my rs640. I’m using the Pro’s IM with Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR. Overall I’m pretty pleased with what I’m seeing. I’m curious to know if you are doing the same on your 4500 or using Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What are your thoughts about the chormapure implementation for calibration through the Radiance Pro?


----------



## tibia

LJG said:


> It really is uncharacteristically quiet from Lumagen as far as firmware updates, and from Jim posting in this thread, I wonder what's up? Hopefully big firmware update brewing.


I was in Jim's office about three weeks ago and I am pretty sure he mentioned he and wife were going on a cruise in the Caribbean Sea.


----------



## SJHT

They are on a cruise! He replied to one of my emails today.. lol SJ


----------



## mskreis

baseball0618 said:


> What are your thoughts about the chormapure implementation for calibration through the Radiance Pro?




I’m quite pleased. I’ve used auto calibration for both SDR and HDR and both calibrations look good. 

I should clarify the above. Both calibrations are for HDR sources. One for Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR and one for Gamma to 3D LUT = HDR. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirk44

Did somebody check out the new blade runner 2049 UHD so far ?
german release is next week and I'm curios how the pro will handle that disc, because of the fact is the first that goes up to 10000 nits

the eng avforums review say: 
Whilst Scott's original is a visually iconic 80s sci-fi masterpiece, Villeneuve's Roger Deakins-shot sequel boasts its own distinctive visual majesty, with some of the most jaw-dropping shots in any film of recent times. It will, undoubtedly grow to be every bit the classic that the original was, in no small part thanks to the wondrous visuals, which here make for some of the best Ultra HD Blu-ray footage you will ever see, courtesy of 3.4K digital photography, full fat 3.4K visual effects and a Deakins-supervised 4K digital Intermediate. Interestingly the disc itself is encoded with Minimum Luminance of 0.005 nits and a Maximum Luminance of 10,000 nits, making the disc one of the first to use the full dynamic range available to HDR.


----------



## Wookii

Dirk44 said:


> Did somebody check out the new blade runner 2049 UHD so far ?
> german release is next week and I'm curios how the pro will handle that disc, because of the fact is the first that goes up to 10000 nits
> 
> the eng avforums review say:
> Whilst Scott's original is a visually iconic 80s sci-fi masterpiece, Villeneuve's Roger Deakins-shot sequel boasts its own distinctive visual majesty, with some of the most jaw-dropping shots in any film of recent times. It will, undoubtedly grow to be every bit the classic that the original was, in no small part thanks to the wondrous visuals, which here make for some of the best Ultra HD Blu-ray footage you will ever see, courtesy of 3.4K digital photography, full fat 3.4K visual effects and a Deakins-supervised 4K digital Intermediate. Interestingly the disc itself is encoded with Minimum Luminance of 0.005 nits and a Maximum Luminance of 10,000 nits, making the disc one of the first to use the full dynamic range available to HDR.


If you look at the rest of the metadata the MaxCLL=181 and the MaxFALL=83 suggesting the movie uses very little dynamic range - infact its one of the lowest dynamic range UHD's released so far. Certainly nowhere near the 10,000nit value, which refers only to the peak luminance of the mastering monitor (though whether it was actually mastered on a 10000nit monitor, I don't know).

The above is a classic example of AVForums yet again not knowing what they are talking about. ALL UHD HDR movies are encoded to 10,000nits, but not all (in fact very few) of them use that full available range, and Bladerunner 2049 actually uses a tiny proportion of it, much less than most other movies - so both of their points are incorrect.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> If you look at the rest of the metadata the MaxCLL=181 and the MaxFALL=83 suggesting the movie uses very little dynamic range - infact its one of the lowest dynamic range UHD's released so far. Certainly nowhere near the 10,000nit value, which refers only to the peak luminance of the mastering monitor (though whether it was actually mastered on a 10000nit monitor, I don't know).
> 
> The above is a classic example of AVForums yet again not knowing what they are talking about. ALL UHD HDR movies are encoded to 10,000nits, but not all (in fact very few) of them use that full available range, and Bladerunner 2049 actually uses a tiny proportion of it, much less than most other movies - so both of their points are incorrect.


Correct. The HDR10 format has a max possible value of 10,000 nits. This is available to ALL titles, regardless of what mastering monitor they used. I've said it countless times now, the mastering monitor means ZERO when it comes to what the movie is capable of and should be ignored completely. MaxCLL is the key figure, as this is the highest pixel level used for that film (if it is right). The only benefit of the Max Display value is when there is no MaxCLL it gives you something to adjust the tone map to figuring (and hoping) that they didn't exceed it. As far as I know they are not doing tone mapping on mastering displays so that they exceed their max capability. This is the only way it would make sense for someone doing the mastering to go beyond the capability of monitor. 


There is a Dolby prototype mastering monitor that will do 10,000 nits, so BR2049 may be the first to use it, but as mentioned before, it has a MaxCLL of 181, so Deakins did a very subtle HDR grade (barely above SDR). Makes sense given Deakin's previous comments about HDR.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> . . . The only benefit of the Max Display value is when there is no MaxCLL it gives you something to adjust the tone map to figuring (and hoping) that they didn't exceed it. As far as I know they are not doing tone mapping on mastering displays so that they exceed their max capability. This is the only way it would make sense for someone doing the mastering to go beyond the capability of monitor.


There are a number of titles where the MaxCLL appears exceeds the monitor max luminance. If you look at this spreadsheet, there are around 14 titles out of the 130 listed:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15pPvBMCjJogKxt4jau4UI_yp7sxOVPIccob6fRe85_A/edit#gid=184653968

Chances are those are rogue pixels artificially elevating the MaxCLL figure, or just the use of a default value (where MaxCLL is a round 10000nits), or just plain incorrect values, but it highlights the problem of just relying on the MaxCLL value alone.

I believe the Lumagen algorithm uses a combination of both Max Display and MaxCLL in determining the hard clip point, so it hopefully deals with outliers like those.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> There are a number of titles where the MaxCLL appears exceeds the monitor max luminance. If you look at this spreadsheet, there are around 14 titles out of the 130 listed:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...u4UI_yp7sxOVPIccob6fRe85_A/edit#gid=184653968
> 
> Chances are those are rogue pixels artificially elevating the MaxCLL figure, or just the use of a default value (where MaxCLL is a round 10000nits), or just plain incorrect values, but it highlights the problem of just relying on the MaxCLL value alone.
> 
> I believe the Lumagen algorithm uses a combination of both Max Display and MaxCLL in determining the hard clip point, so it hopefully deals with outliers like those.


Correct, they look at the two and do different things depending on how they are in relation to each other. If MaxCLL is greater than Max Display, they do an average. 


It is unclear if titles like this are just bad data, with random pixel levels that throw off MaxCLL or if they are intended and they used a waveform monitor or a tone map to have that value represented properly in mastering. I've asked the guys at Spectracal if they have any insight since they deal with mastering studios on occasion.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Hopefully the Lumagen also deals with BT.2020 primaries. Because this is the first title on that list that has no DCI-P3 primaries.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> Hopefully the Lumagen also deals with BT.2020 primaries. Because this is the first title on that list that has no DCI-P3 primaries.


I'm not sure how that differs in practice given that all UHD's are in a Rec2020 container anyway though.


----------



## wfdTamar

Just some feedback for Lumagen from a new 4242 purchaser.

Previously had an iScan Duo and I'm fairly ok with technical things, but boy the Radiance manual and on screen GUI is hard going fellas. I really think you would do well to use some professional manual writers and GUI designers to make it a lot clearer. Yes , there is explanation of how to change settings, but very little on why you might choose settings and what the jargon means. It seems aimed at calibration and home theatre professionals rather than home users.

I also wonder if you might do as well with lower pricing/higher sales. They are very expensive and I reckon a lot of potential purchasers balk at the price. I realise that would require a leap of faith on Lumagen's part - cut the price dramatically in hopes of increased sales, but if people bought video processors as readily as they do audio processors I can't see why it wouldn't work. However it would need to be a LOT more user friendly than it currently is.

Ok, the Radiance (US$5.5k) is technically superior to the iScan Duo (US$1k), but not US$4.5k better. Maybe US$1-1.5k.

That's all quite critical - the reason is I haven't got to the point of being able to drive the sodding thing properly yet  Most changes I've tried result in HDCP errors.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Just watched American Assasin. Good movie with outstanding video and audio!

However, when movies starts, Radiance Pro info shows incoming 709SDR, not 2020HDR. Had to either put Radiance Pro on standby, or switch to another Radiance Pro input, and then back to Oppo UDP-205 input, to get incoming 2020HDR. From thereon everything was full speed ahead 2020HDR, tonemapped to 2020SDR with Radiance Pro.


----------



## thrang

wfdTamar said:


> Just some feedback for Lumagen from a new 4242 purchaser.
> 
> Previously had an iScan Duo and I'm fairly ok with technical things, but boy the Radiance manual and on screen GUI is hard going fellas. I really think you would do well to use some professional manual writers and GUI designers to make it a lot clearer. Yes , there is explanation of how to change settings, but very little on why you might choose settings and what the jargon means. It seems aimed at calibration and home theatre professionals rather than home users.
> 
> I also wonder if you might do as well with lower pricing/higher sales. They are very expensive and I reckon a lot of potential purchasers balk at the price. I realise that would require a leap of faith on Lumagen's part - cut the price dramatically in hopes of increased sales, but if people bought video processors as readily as they do audio processors I can't see why it wouldn't work. However it would need to be a LOT more user friendly than it currently is.
> 
> Ok, the Radiance (US$5.5k) is technically superior to the iScan Duo (US$1k), but not US$4.5k better. Maybe US$1-1.5k.
> 
> That's all quite critical - the reason is I haven't got to the point of being able to drive the sodding thing properly yet  Most changes I've tried result in HDCP errors.


Why did you buy it?

I'm not being a jackass, but curious...

Are you hiring a calibrator?


----------



## wfdTamar

I had a great setup with an iScan Duo, Panasonic VT50 and Chromapure with an Xrite calibrator. I did my own calibrating with that fine. Got upgrade-itis for 4k, bigger & brighter screen.

Got the Radiance as a 4k version of that setup (for switching, upscaling & calibration). Once I get my head around the manual and HDCP, HDR, SDR etc. I'll be doing my own calibrating.

If I was going to hire someone else I wouldn't have bought the Radiance as they could use the TV CMS.


----------



## thrang

wfdTamar said:


> I had a great setup with an iScan Duo, Panasonic VT50 and Chromapure with an Xrite calibrator. I did my own calibrating with that fine. Got upgrade-itis for 4k, bigger & brighter screen.
> 
> Got the Radiance as a 4k version of that setup (for switching, upscaling & calibration). Once I get my head around the manual and HDCP, HDR, SDR etc. I'll be doing my own calibrating.
> 
> If I was going to hire someone else I wouldn't have bought the Radiance as they could use the TV CMS.


Well, even as a tweaker, I ended up hiring someone, and I'd think you'd find most Radiance purchasers have done the same. The experience of a good calibrator (and the $7-10k meters they use) are meaningful components to getting the most out of the Radiance.


----------



## wfdTamar

For me the aim of the game is to get good quality equipment and setup & control it myself. I'm the same in any aspect of my life. I'd consider it a product weakness to have to get someone in to drive it given that I'm a fairly technically competent person. OK, someone that does it regularly may get a better or quicker result, but that's not what I want. Also where I live there is no-one that would know how to do it. Buying my own calibrator means I can do it whenever I like at no extra cost. I should be able to achieve results as good as anyone else.

I have the X-Rite EyeOne Display 3 Pro Colorimeter with ChromaPure & Advanced Auto Calibrate which is supposed to be an excellent package, certainly good enough for the home user. Of course you need to know a bit about the settings on the Radiance to use it and that's what's holding me up. 

Just as an example, have a look at page 13 (Section 6) - the Note in bold about 2/3rds down the page. Sorry, but that is a bit of a mess. It's great that they try to explain it, but it just highlights the dire need for professional technical manual writers.

Below is what is said on the site I got it from (perhaps there's a bit of marketing fluff in there, but it seems backed up elsewhere).

'The X-Rite Display 3 is a truly revolutionary product. It offers near professional performance at a price affordable to any enthusiast. In fact, its performance is so close to professional colorimeters, such as the Klein K-10 or X-Rite’s own Hubble, that it has become extremely difficult to justify purchasing such devices that come in at 10-20 times the cost of the Display 3.'


----------



## Mark_H

wfdTamar said:


> For me the aim of the game is to get good quality equipment and setup & control it myself.


Agreed 100%


----------



## wfdTamar

HDCP Question -
If all your video devices from source - Radiance - TV are HDCP 2.2, but your audio goes from Radiance to an HDCP 1.x audio processor is that going to induce HDCP errors (blocked video) or does HDCP only care about the video devices?

Ah, actually at least one source device plugged into the Radiance is HDCP 1.1 (my PVR). If I'm playing from say my UHD Bluray (HDCP compliant), but the PVR is plugged into the Radiance asleep, or on and recording, would that cause the UHD Bluray to have an HDCP error?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

wfdTamar said:


> HDCP Question -
> If all your video devices from source - Radiance - TV are HDCP 2.2, but your audio goes from Radiance to an HDCP 1.x audio processor is that going to induce HDCP errors (blocked video) or does HDCP only care about the video devices?
> 
> Ah, actually at least one source device plugged into the Radiance is HDCP 1.1 (my PVR). If I'm playing from say my UHD Bluray (HDCP compliant), but the PVR is plugged into the Radiance asleep, or on and recording, would that cause the UHD Bluray to have an HDCP error?


If an HDCP 2.2 source is live and being played then the device on the output must be HDCP2.2 compliant for video or you will get no image. However, if you set an output to AUDIO only then that can be used to send HDCP1.x blanked video with the audio from the source embedded in it. This is precisely to allow legacy audio processors to work with new HDCP2.2 devices. Having an HDCP1.X PVR plugged in and awake while you watch a UHD disc through your Radiance Pro should have no effect on performance.


----------



## D_B_0673

*input calibrations*

Just want to make sure I understand this basic procedure.
I have 3 inputs, (one on the 18 ghz card and two on the 9ghz card)
Each input has cms0 and cms1 (identical which refers to whether input is 709 (bluray) or HDR 2020)

Can I do a separate calibration on each input (1, 2 , or 3) for CMS 0 and CMS 1?
I don't want to mess up the one calibration I currrently have on the 18ghz card in CMS0 for rec 709.
thanks


----------



## *Harry*

Does it really have x CMS slots per input?
If I'm right, we have only 8 CMS slots in total, so not a CMS 0 + CMS 1 for each input ...


----------



## thrang

8 CMS slots total, they are universal for all inputs. That's more than enough I would think, given were are primarily concerned the SDR709 and HDR2020 at the moment...


----------



## D_B_0673

*Harry* said:


> Does it really have x CMS slots per input?
> If I'm right, we have only 8 CMS slots in total, so not a CMS 0 + CMS 1 for each input ...


not sure, I am pretty lost in the Lumagen menu.
So if I do a calibration on input 1 cms0, is that calibration on all imputs with CMS0 automatically?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Yes 8 in total. Set another memory to use CMS 2 and CMS3 and then do your recalibration and you can swap between MEMA and MEMB to see the difference.


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> Yes 8 in total. Set another memory to use CMS 2 and CMS3 and then do your recalibration and you can swap between MEMA and MEMB to see the difference.


what do you mean be set another memory?
How do i do that in the menu? 
How would I assign this to MEM C or MEM D for example
I think I have something on MEM A and MEM B, 
It might be MEM A is HDR in and SDR2020 out
Mem B is 709


----------



## thrang

D_B_0673 said:


> what do you mean be set another memory?
> How do i do that in the menu?
> How would I assign this to MEM C or MEM D for example
> I think I have something on MEM A and MEM B,
> It might be MEM A is HDR in and SDR2020 out
> Mem B is 709


To assign a cms to the active input, choose that Memory and input, and then MENU > OUTPUT > OUTPUT SETTINGS. Navigate to the SDR or hdr cms entry you want to change and press enter, then use the up and down arrows to select a different cms. Press enter.

After backing out, perform a Save if you want that change to be permanent

so MEM A input 1 could have CMS1 for 709; MEM B Input 1 should have CMS3 for 709. But no more than 8 CMS slots total no matter how you slice and dice.


----------



## SJHT

Page 11 helps in this document.....

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


----------



## bobof

wfdTamar said:


> I have the X-Rite EyeOne Display 3 Pro Colorimeter with ChromaPure & Advanced Auto Calibrate which is supposed to be an excellent package, certainly good enough for the home user. Of course you need to know a bit about the settings on the Radiance to use it and that's what's holding me up.


I never thought much of the quality of greyscale calibration coming out of Chromapure3 with that meter when I tried it on earlier Lumagen units - I'd usually end up with a oscillating colour casts at the lower end (either to red or to green). I find chromapure a bit annoying as the whole process is very much "black box" with very little you can affect if you don't like the result.

To be fair though, I've only really started to become impressed with Lightspace in this respect in the recent software versions, up until then I'd often manually tweak it to get it just right. I think LS is doing an excellent job these days.


----------



## bobof

D_B_0673 said:


> Just want to make sure I understand this basic procedure.
> I have 3 inputs, (one on the 18 ghz card and two on the 9ghz card)
> Each input has cms0 and cms1 (identical which refers to whether input is 709 (bluray) or HDR 2020)
> 
> Can I do a separate calibration on each input (1, 2 , or 3) for CMS 0 and CMS 1?
> I don't want to mess up the one calibration I currrently have on the 18ghz card in CMS0 for rec 709.
> thanks


It is hard to see what you're going to be calibrating on a per-input basis. The inputs themselves all behave the same; so you'd have to have different devices that you could all enable enough pattern generation to create 3DLUTs from. Maybe possible with media players and BD players, but not usually going to be achievable with TV set top boxes etc.


----------



## D_B_0673

SJHT said:


> Page 11 helps in this document.....
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_052517.pdf


thanks, I have read that and it is not clear to me


----------



## D_B_0673

bobof said:


> It is hard to see what you're going to be calibrating on a per-input basis. The inputs themselves all behave the same; so you'd have to have different devices that you could all enable enough pattern generation to create 3DLUTs from. Maybe possible with media players and BD players, but not usually going to be achievable with TV set top boxes etc.


I was not sure if I had to calibrate each input ( a bluray player and a 4k player) individually.
I am trying to do the ChromaPure auto cal for SDR2020, but am having trouble. 
When I follow the instructions, I am supposed to temporarily change CMS0 (rec709) to CMS1 (SDR2020) and then do the calibration. When I do that I loose all the ChromaPure patterns, screen is dark, although I can still bring up the Lumagen menu.
Do you think this would work
I copy my CMS0 (rec709) to CMS3 for example, calibrate it for the SDR2020, then copy that to CMS1 and reset the input /output parameters to HDR in and SDR2020out.


----------



## D_B_0673

thrang said:


> To assign a cms to the active input, choose that Memory and input, and then MENU > OUTPUT > OUTPUT SETTINGS. Navigate to the SDR or hdr cms entry you want to change and press enter, then use the up and down arrows to select a different cms. Press enter.
> 
> After backing out, perform a Save if you want that change to be permanent
> 
> so MEM A input 1 could have CMS1 for 709; MEM B Input 1 should have CMS3 for 709. But no more than 8 CMS slots total no matter how you slice and dice.


thanks
I need to ponder this a bit


----------



## bobof

D_B_0673 said:


> I was not sure if I had to calibrate each input ( a bluray player and a 4k player) individually.
> I am trying to do the ChromaPure auto cal for SDR2020, but am having trouble.
> When I follow the instructions, I am supposed to temporarily change CMS0 (rec709) to CMS1 (SDR2020) and then do the calibration. When I do that I loose all the ChromaPure patterns, screen is dark, although I can still bring up the Lumagen menu.
> Do you think this would work
> I copy my CMS0 (rec709) to CMS3 for example, calibrate it for the SDR2020, then copy that to CMS1 and reset the input /output parameters to HDR in and SDR2020out.


Most players from major manufacturers should be pretty well behaved these days so you're unlikely to gain much calibrating for each. You can always prove if this is the case or not by using @ConnecTEDDD's patterns from file or disc to see if there is any significant difference between the outputs - a few measurements would be enough to check.

I don't have recent experience with CP3 as I sold it on. The pattern generator works pretty well in Lightspace, though there are occasional annoyances with the 2143 I've noticed (like some things you do cancelling the pattern output, which you then need to toggle back on.).


----------



## mskreis

D_B_0673 said:


> I was not sure if I had to calibrate each input ( a bluray player and a 4k player) individually.
> I am trying to do the ChromaPure auto cal for SDR2020, but am having trouble.
> When I follow the instructions, I am supposed to temporarily change CMS0 (rec709) to CMS1 (SDR2020) and then do the calibration. When I do that I loose all the ChromaPure patterns, screen is dark, although I can still bring up the Lumagen menu.
> Do you think this would work
> I copy my CMS0 (rec709) to CMS3 for example, calibrate it for the SDR2020, then copy that to CMS1 and reset the input /output parameters to HDR in and SDR2020out.




I simply left CMS0 as the default, calibrated SDR2020, then copied CMS0 to CMS1. Since I already had a good 709 Calibration on CMS0 I first copied it to CMS2 then back when I was all done. If you like the results be sure to perform a Save before powering down. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## D_B_0673

mskreis said:


> I simply left CMS0 as the default, calibrated SDR2020, then copied CMS0 to CMS1. Since I already had a good 709 Calibration on CMS0 I first copied it to CMS2 then back when I was all done. If you like the results be sure to perform a Save before powering down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


thanks, that is what I will try. I was not sure if that would work.
After you copied the SDR 2020 cal to CMS1, you would have to go into the menu to reset CMS 1 to output SDR2020 422. Is that correct.


----------



## mskreis

D_B_0673 said:


> thanks, that is what I will try. I was not sure if that would work.
> After you copied the SDR 2020 cal to CMS1, you would have to go into the menu to reset CMS 1 to output SDR2020 422. Is that correct.




From memory, that sounds correct. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## wfdTamar

How long is a FullHD auto-calibration taking everyone? Particularly with Chromapure 3 and the Xrite Eyeone. Mine is looking like taking 5-6 hours! I may have set the settings too high, but that is one of the selling points of the Radiance so I thought 'might as well go for the most thorough'.

With the same computer and Chromapure 2 into a DVDO iScan Duo it took maybe 20 minutes.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

wfd: With an OLED i would not be measuring for that lenght of time. The drift in performance will be large during the measurement period.
I tested some measurment times yesterday but i was using LightSpace and an i1Display Pro revb (NEW). Just wanted to see how fast it was with latest version of the software.

It measured a 10x10x10 cube in 12mins 48seconds Then using that data to create a LUT took about another minute or so.
Did a 7x7x7 quick test in 4mins 25 secs.


----------



## kal

wfdTamar said:


> How long is a FullHD auto-calibration taking everyone? Particularly with Chromapure 3 and the Xrite Eyeone. Mine is looking like taking 5-6 hours! I may have set the settings too high, but that is one of the selling points of the Radiance so I thought 'might as well go for the most thorough'.
> 
> With the same computer and Chromapure 2 into a DVDO iScan Duo it took maybe 20 minutes.


The Radiance Pro will take considerably longer if you do the 4913 point calibration. To compare the two:

DVDO maximum possible calibration points:

- Gamma: 11
- Greyscale: 11
- Colour (gamut): 6

Radiance Pro maximum possible calibration points:

- Gamma: 21
- Greyscale: 21
- Colour (gamut): 4913

If speed is required, try the 125 point colour calibration on the Radiance Pro. It'll be considerably faster than 4913.

Kal


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Alyaji said:


> If you’re ready to invest into a Radiance Pro then the cost of calibration isn’t that much to add. I don’t know of any other way to do HDR on a non-HDR projector. So if you want to take advantage of all the available or future 4K HDR sources (HDR10, HDR10+, HLG) without replacing your pj that’s the only option.
> 
> Note that the Pro only does HDR10 at the moment but Lumagen have plans to support HDR10+ and HLG in the near future (via fw upgrade). The only format that is unlikely to be supported is Dolby Vision because of their proprietary policy.


Ken Whitcomb did a marvelous stupendous job setting up and calibrating my Sony VPL-VW5000ES laser projector with a Lumagen Radiance Pro!
Of course I use the HDR tone mapping Ken setup with the Radiance Pro - but as the Radiance Pro apparently will NEVER do Dolby Vision, and in the future at some point hopefully will do HDR10+ and HLG, today I connected my DirecTV mini-genie 61 4k receiver via HDMI into the HDMI input of my Oppo UDP-205 4k blu ray player, and yea using the Oppo for tone mapping works nicely (even if not as good as the Radiance Pro may do some day).
I have already watched "American Made" 4k, and when I get a chance, I will need to try it using the Oppo tone mapping firmware since it is Dolby Vision and the Radiance Pro does not and never will do Dolby Vision, to "see" if the picture looks better using the Oppo to tone map the full Dolby Vision rather than the Radiance Pro tone map the HDR10 subpart.


----------



## jlanzy

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Ken Whitcomb did a marvelous stupendous job setting up and calibrating my Sony VPL-VW5000ES laser projector with a Lumagen Radiance Pro!
> Of course I use the HDR tone mapping Ken setup with the Radiance Pro - but as the Radiance Pro apparently will NEVER do Dolby Vision, and in the future at some point hopefully will do HDR10+ and HLG, today I connected my DirecTV mini-genie 61 4k receiver via HDMI into the HDMI input of my Oppo UDP-205 4k blu ray player, and yea *using the Oppo for tone mapping works nicely (even if not as good as the Radiance Pro may do some day).*
> I have already watched "American Made" 4k, and when I get a chance, I will need to try it using the Oppo tone mapping firmware since it is Dolby Vision and the Radiance Pro does not and never will do Dolby Vision, to "see" if the picture looks better using the Oppo to tone map the full Dolby Vision rather than the Radiance Pro tone map the HDR10 subpart.



It seems you are saying the Oppo tone mapping is currently better than the Radiance Pro? 


I have the vw885 awaiting calibration, UB900 for UHD/Netflix, Oppo 103+Darbee for HD, was hoping that the Arve tool used by my calibrator would provide a close competitor to the tone mapping of the Oppo, if not even the Lumagen, does anyone have any comment on that?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jlanzy said:


> It seems you are saying the Oppo tone mapping is currently better than the Radiance Pro?
> 
> 
> I have the vw885 awaiting calibration, UB900 for UHD/Netflix, Oppo 103+Darbee for HD, was hoping that the Arve tool used by my calibrator would provide a close competitor to the tone mapping of the Oppo, if not even the Lumagen, does anyone have any comment on that?


Read my post again. I never said that the Oppo tone maps even near as good as the Radiance Pro. Only that the Oppo is my only to tone map for DirecTV.


----------



## wfdTamar

Gordon Fraser said:


> wfd: ..... i was using LightSpace and an i1Display Pro revb (NEW). ....
> 
> It measured a 10x10x10 cube in 12mins 48seconds Then using that data to create a LUT took about another minute or so.
> Did a 7x7x7 quick test in 4mins 25 secs.



Exact same meter then (they call it something different on CurtPalme.com). Sorry I don't understand the 10x10x10 cube bit - how that compares to 4913 point. Ah ok, 4913 is 17x17x17 (just a simple multiplication), so 10x10x10 is 1000!

On the Radiance Pro (or maybe it's a Chromapure setting) there is a choice of:
4913 (17x17x17)
729 (9x9x9)
125 (5x5x5)

Just done a 125 point. Yes, that's quick, about 10-15 mins (I didn't stay in the room, so I'm not sure).


----------



## Gordon Fraser

wfdTamar said:


> Exact same meter then (they call it something different on CurtPalme.com). Sorry I don't understand the 10x10x10 cube bit - how that compares to 4913 point. Ah ok, 4913 is 17x17x17 (just a simple multiplication), so 10x10x10 is 1000!
> 
> On the Radiance Pro (or maybe it's a Chromapure setting) there is a choice of:
> 4913 (17x17x17)
> 729 (9x9x9)
> 125 (5x5x5)
> 
> Just done a 125 point. Yes, that's quick, about 10-15 mins (I didn't stay in the room, so I'm not sure).


LightSpace works differently to Chromapure. You can choose how large a cube you want to sample for it to create the LUT. From the data you sample LightSpace will always create the largest LUT the Radiance can make use of. With linear displays you do not always get great benefits making large amounts of measurements and with unstable displays like domestic OLED you are actually more likely to get poor results if you take large amounts of measurements. LightSpace has a drift compensation feature but even then i have found in my tests that with my Sony A1 you don't want to be measuring for more than 12 minutes or things start to get a little worse.


----------



## wfdTamar

That's a bit like being told the Ferrari you just bought can't be driven over 100 kmph.

Maybe the 729 point (7x7x7) will be an ok compromise.

Turns out there's a problem with the latest version of Chromapure doing Rec. 709 calibrations. They'll come up with a fix within a few days.

Gordon, have you tried Calman? It's US$399 compared to £399 for Lightspace and I seem to remember once in the past Calman offered a very cheap crossgrade. I'd be interested to try others.

Hmm, leaning toward Lightspace now. They do crossgrades. Just emailed them find out how much it costs. Quick response - 30% off, which makes it £280 (A$500).

Oooh, they have a free version you can fiddle with:

https://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_dps.html


----------



## Gordon Fraser

wfdTamar said:


> That's a bit like being told the Ferrari you just bought can't be driven over 100 kmph.
> 
> Maybe the 729 point (7x7x7) will be an ok compromise.
> 
> Turns out there's a problem with the latest version of Chromapure doing Rec. 709 calibrations. They'll come up with a fix within a few days.
> 
> Gordon, have you tried Calman? It's US$399 compared to £399 for Lightspace and I seem to remember once in the past Calman offered a very cheap crossgrade. I'd be interested to try others.
> 
> Hmm, leaning toward Lightspace now. They do crossgrades. Just emailed them find out how much it costs. Quick response - 30% off, which makes it £280 (A$500).
> 
> Oooh, they have a free version you can fiddle with:
> 
> https://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_dps.html


I have not tried Calman. i stopped using it several years ago.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

wfdTamar said:


> That's a bit like being told the Ferrari you just bought can't be driven over 100 kmph.
> 
> Maybe the 729 point (7x7x7) will be an ok compromise.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_dps.html


The issue is not with RADIANCE Pro. It''s with your display. With some displays and LightSpavce you could do a 21x21x2§1 PROFILE to create a 17x17x17 LUT and you'd get superior results to doing a 9x9x9.

With chromapure i'd suggest trying 9x9x9 run, which is I think what Tom suggests.


----------



## nicolasb

thrang said:


> 8 CMS slots total, they are universal for all inputs. That's more than enough I would think, given were are primarily concerned the SDR709 and HDR2020 at the moment...


I disagree. 

First off, you'll likely be calibrating the TV for both "bright room" and "dark room" settings, and you'll need a different CMS for each. Second, there is more than 709 and 2020 to worry about. NTSC DVDs use a different colour gamut from rec.709 (SMTPE-C, I think); PAL DVDs use yet another (EBU, I think). EBU is close enough to the rec.709 gamut that you probably wouldn't notice the difference unless you're doing a side-by-side comparison, but switching from one to the other, you can see a change; the difference between the SMPTE-C gamut and rec.709 is *very *visible.

Then, you'll need another CMS for 3D use, because the TV's colour reproduction won't be the same in 3D mode as it is in 2D mode. 

So, the absolute minimum is:

- rec.709 bright room
- rec.709 dark room
- ntsc bright room
- ntsc dark room
- HDR10
- 3D

and if you're a purist you'll also want 

- PAL bright room
- PAL dark room

Then there's the question of whether you want separate bright and dark room settings for HDR; you might. 

You might also want separate bright and dark settings for 3D.

At some point in the future there may be HLG to worry about - it's not yet clear if that will need a separate CMS from HDR10.

Eventually there will be HDR10+ - again, not clear if that will need a separate CMS.

Then there's the fact that a number of HDR videos on YouTube are (rather bizarrely) encoded as HDR709 instead of HDR2020.

And there's the question of whether having an SDR2020 mode is useful; arguably not, but there are some devices (for example, the Nvidia Shield TV) which default to outputting SDR2020 rather than SDR709, and require manual colour-space switching at the source if you want to go between 709 and 2020 modes.

So, one could easily find a use for anything up to 16 CMSes; and that's assuming you have only a single output device - if you've got two different calibrated displays on different outputs, multiply everything by two.

Obviously, some of these options are much more useful than others, but I honestly don't think 8 CMSes is enough.


----------



## thrang

nicolasb said:


> I disagree.
> 
> First off, you'll likely be calibrating the TV for both "bright room" and "dark room" settings, and you'll need a different CMS for each. Second, there is more than 709 and 2020 to worry about. NTSC DVDs use a different colour gamut from rec.709 (SMTPE-C, I think); PAL DVDs use yet another (EBU, I think). EBU is close enough to the rec.709 gamut that you probably wouldn't notice the difference unless you're doing a side-by-side comparison, but switching from one to the other, you can see a change; the difference between the SMPTE-C gamut and rec.709 is *very *visible.
> 
> Then, you'll need another CMS for 3D use, because the TV's colour reproduction won't be the same in 3D mode as it is in 2D mode.
> 
> So, the absolute minimum is:
> 
> - rec.709 bright room
> - rec.709 dark room
> - ntsc bright room
> - ntsc dark room
> - HDR10
> - 3D
> 
> and if you're a purist you'll also want
> 
> - PAL bright room
> - PAL dark room
> 
> Then there's the question of whether you want separate bright and dark room settings for HDR; you might.
> 
> You might also want separate bright and dark settings for 3D.
> 
> At some point in the future there may be HLG to worry about - it's not yet clear if that will need a separate CMS from HDR10.
> 
> Eventually there will be HDR10+ - again, not clear if that will need a separate CMS.
> 
> Then there's the fact that a number of HDR videos on YouTube are (rather bizarrely) encoded as HDR709 instead of HDR2020.
> 
> And there's the question of whether having an SDR2020 mode is useful; arguably not, but there are some devices (for example, the Nvidia Shield TV) which default to outputting SDR2020 rather than SDR709, and require manual colour-space switching at the source if you want to go between 709 and 2020 modes.
> 
> So, one could easily find a use for anything up to 16 CMSes; and that's assuming you have only a single output device - if you've got two different calibrated displays on different outputs, multiply everything by two.
> 
> Obviously, some of these options are much more useful than others, but I honestly don't think 8 CMSes is enough.


I’d be shocked if 1% of the Radiance users do anything close to this.

If you’re a purist you’re not worried about bright room viewing, and 3d is essentially dead


----------



## Surfdrifter

I would also agree that 8xCMS memories are few and it has nothing to do with being purist. Simply add a 2nd display. For instance, I have a JVC RS500 and a LG B7 OLED. The absolute minimum is 4 CMS memories for these setups. 2xREC709 and 2xREC2020 for the two displays. I won't delve into the possibility of having a different CMS for every different source in your system.

And then you might want to try various flavors of HDR, such as different multipliers with Lightspace or maybe try gamma 2.4 for HDR and have multiple HDR tone mapping settings. These will eat up your slots.


----------



## baseball0618

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Ken Whitcomb did a marvelous stupendous job setting up and calibrating my Sony VPL-VW5000ES laser projector with a Lumagen Radiance Pro!
> Of course I use the HDR tone mapping Ken setup with the Radiance Pro - but as the Radiance Pro apparently will NEVER do Dolby Vision, and in the future at some point hopefully will do HDR10+ and HLG, today I connected my DirecTV mini-genie 61 4k receiver via HDMI into the HDMI input of my Oppo UDP-205 4k blu ray player, and yea using the Oppo for tone mapping works nicely (even if not as good as the Radiance Pro may do some day).
> I have already watched "American Made" 4k, and when I get a chance, I will need to try it using the Oppo tone mapping firmware since it is Dolby Vision and the Radiance Pro does not and never will do Dolby Vision, to "see" if the picture looks better using the Oppo to tone map the full Dolby Vision rather than the Radiance Pro tone map the HDR10 subpart.


Your projector is not DV capable so does it even matter b/c you won't be able to pass the DV flag through to your projector?


----------



## baseball0618

Is anyone using an Apple TV 4k via the lumagen? If so how much does it improve upon the Apple TV 4k image?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

baseball0618 said:


> Your projector is not DV capable so does it even matter b/c you won't be able to pass the DV flag through to your projector?


Correct. On "American Made", I tried using the Oppo to tone map, vs using the Radiance Pro to tone map, and I couldn't really tell a difference. This 4k disc is a Dolby Vision one with from what I have seen relatively mediocre or poor picture quality compared to many others. Last night I decided to watch the 4k disc of "Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates" - I needed to watch a stupid comedy - good picture quality, and I could clearly see an improved picture making it worthwhile easily to use the Radiance Pro for HDR tone mapping instead of using the Oppo for this.


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> and 3d is essentially dead


Speak for yourself!


----------



## Mark_H

baseball0618 said:


> Is anyone using an Apple TV 4k via the lumagen? If so how much does it improve upon the Apple TV 4k image?


Yes. Massively?

Apple TV 4K -> Lumagen -> 3D LUT (w/HDR Intensity Mapping) -> awesome.


----------



## turls

thrang said:


> 3d is essentially dead


My backlog of dozens of 3D movies, with more coming out on a regular basis, disagrees with you.


----------



## thrang

turls said:


> My backlog of dozens of 3D movies, with more coming out on a regular basis, disagrees with you.


Well, I understand some may still actively watch, and that's great. But from an industry perspective, it is dying...


----------



## bearcat2002

baseball0618 said:


> Is anyone using an Apple TV 4k via the lumagen? If so how much does it improve upon the Apple TV 4k image?


Just had my new Radiance Pro 4446 calibrated by Doug Weil and I have to say it's flipping amazing. My inputs are TiVo Mini (1080p), AppleTV 4k, Oppo 203, PS4, Amazon Fire TV 4k, and Nintendo Wii. Every input looked a zillion times better, both color, greyscale, HDR, everything. Get it done! Call Doug.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I thought that if you did the upscaling in the Lumagen, then it would 'convert' PAL and NTSC DVD to rec709, so you wouldn't need a separate CMS for PAL or NTSC DVD sources?

FWIW all I've ever done in my Lumagen (Mini3D and currently Radiance 2041) is calibrate for rec709 for each of 3 displays (fed from the 2041 via a splitter). I don't worry about light room viewing, since this isn't critical IMHO.

I expect I will upgrade to a Pro at some point, so I would add rec2020 to my projector CMS choices (both TVs are 1080p, so would stick with rec709). That still leaves me 4 CMS to play with for other uses with UHD, since 3D was a complete non starter in my world (severe headaches watching it and that's mostly just the plot lines of a typical 3D film ).

If I really did need more than 8 CMSs just for my projector, then that goes against my justification for getting the Pro in that it can be used with 3 of my displays (not at the same time of course  ).

I think sometimes we can just make things more complicated than they really need to be...


----------



## LJG

LJG said:


> It really is uncharacteristically quiet from Lumagen as far as firmware updates, and from Jim posting in this thread, I wonder what's up? Hopefully big firmware update brewing.


I'm still wondering the same thing


----------



## thrang

LJG said:


> I'm still wondering the same thing


Lets all chant "frame by frame tone mapping" together an maybe it will reach Oregon...


----------



## alex_t

Hello,

On this page: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm

I have discovered that new models are coming (same power as current ones but with compact size). I believe Lumagen is working on this and it could explain why they have not had the time for posting message here yet .... Just my guess.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> On this page: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
> 
> I have discovered that new models are coming (same power as current ones but with compact size). I believe Lumagen is working on this and it could explain why they have not had the time for posting message here yet .... Just my guess.



they are not really new models. They are just 4240 and 4242 in smaller form case for calibrators to carry around more easily. Due to smaller size case with less airflow they run hotter and have louder fan. There is no change in price over the larger units as there is no price saving in the smaller case as they are not making as many of them. I have one and was hoping to take a photo to update my site but i've had to go away on another trip and didn't get round to it. They are available now. 

Lumagen are quiet because, as has already been said, jim was on holiday. he is now back but is suffering from the flu. I'm sure he'll be back here to answer questions once he's back in the office.


----------



## alex_t

Gordon Fraser said:


> they are not really new models. They are just 4240 and 4242 in smaller form case for calibrators to carry around more easily. Due to smaller size case with less airflow they run hotter and have louder fan. There is no change in price over the larger units as there is no price saving in the smaller case as they are not making as many of them. I have one and was hoping to take a photo to update my site but i've had to go away on another trip and didn't get round to it. They are available now.
> 
> Lumagen are quiet because, as has already been said, jim was on holiday. he is now back but is suffering from the flu. I'm sure he'll be back here to answer questions once he's back in the office.


Thank you Gordon.


----------



## Mark_H

Gordon Fraser said:


> they are not really new models. They are just 4240 and 4242 in smaller form case for calibrators to carry around more easily. Due to smaller size case with less airflow they run hotter and have louder fan.


That's a shame - while looking at the back of the compact, and seeing no rear exhaust holes, I hoped it was fanless... would jump on a trade-in/upgrade for a silent model.

Here's wishing Jim a speedy recovery.


----------



## Roland Janus

Gordon Fraser said:


> they are not really new models. They are just 4240 and 4242 in smaller form case for calibrators to carry around more easily. Due to smaller size case with less airflow they run hotter and have louder fan. There is no change in price over the larger units as there is no price saving in the smaller case as they are not making as many of them. I have one and was hoping to take a photo to update my site but i've had to go away on another trip and didn't get round to it. They are available now.
> 
> Lumagen are quiet because, as has already been said, jim was on holiday. he is now back but is suffering from the flu. I'm sure he'll be back here to answer questions once he's back in the office.


I feel him, had it twice in a row...


----------



## LJG

Gordon Fraser said:


> they are not really new models. They are just 4240 and 4242 in smaller form case for calibrators to carry around more easily. Due to smaller size case with less airflow they run hotter and have louder fan. There is no change in price over the larger units as there is no price saving in the smaller case as they are not making as many of them. I have one and was hoping to take a photo to update my site but i've had to go away on another trip and didn't get round to it. They are available now.
> 
> Lumagen are quiet because, as has already been said, jim was on holiday. he is now back but is suffering from the flu. I'm sure he'll be back here to answer questions once he's back in the office.


I was not aware Jim was ill with the flu, I wish him a speedy recovery, it can be a brutal strain.


----------



## kal

Radiance Pro 4240-C / 4242-C pics that Jim sent me (the -C stands for 'compact'):


















Great for calibrators to carry around but also good where you want to tuck away a unit a more more, such as behind a flat panel display (or similar). Just make sure to allow for adequate airflow.

The 424X-C units are identical in hardware and function, and uses the same software, as current Radiance Pro 424X models. The only difference is the size: These new compact units are 11.3"W x 5.25"D x 1.75"H while the full size models which are 17"W x 10"D x 1.75"H. The front is similar to the Radiance 2020 except the IR sensor and LED have moved, and there is a Radiance Pro logo added. The back looks like the connector portion of the full sized Radiance Pro 424X. Pricing remains the same as the existing 424X models as mentioned above because while the case is smaller, the cost is dominated by manufacturing labor and production volume, and not material. 18 GHz upgrades are still available just like the current 4XXX models (same I/O cards are used where two inputs or outputs are affected per card). 

Lumagen's also decided to transition to a 1U (1.75" height) case for all Radiance Pro products, so they have introduced Radiance Pro 444X-1U models. The 2U (3.5" height) chassis will remain the standard model until stock is gone but customers that prefer the 1U version can request it now too.

The 444X-1U video processing features and video quality remain identical to the Radiance Pro 444X 2U chassis models, with only the case and fan changing. The current 2U version of the Radiance Pro 444X models uses a 35 mm fan running at 7500 RPM (max). Some people have been asking for a quieter version of these models and this is in part the reason for updating the case design to 1U using a 60 mm fan. The Radiance Pro 424X models currently use a 60 mm fan that is quieter than the 444X’s 35 mm fan since it spins slower at 2500 rpm (max). The new 444X-1U models will use a new, even quieter, 60 mm fan that is rated at 3 dB less than the current 60 mm fan used in the Radiance Pro 424X models. In addition the 444X-1U uses "voltage control" for fan speed rather than pulse-width-modulation (PWM) used in the 424X, and current 2U 444X models. This further reduces the fan noise level. 

One question that Jim says they get from installers using 19” racks to mount equipment is “do we need to leave a space above or below the unit for ventilation?”. The 444X 2U models have inlet and outlet venting on the back and so only required 2U rack height to be allocated in the rack. The 424X (1U) models require 1U above and 1U below for ventilation, and so require 3U spacing (unless there is smaller equipment above and/or below such that the vents have adequate air flow). The new 444X-1U requires a 1U space below the bottom vent, but can be used with no space above since there are outlet vents on the back in addition to the ones on the top. So the 444X-1U requires 2U vertical space in the rack. As always Lumagen recommends that the Radiance Pro not be installed above heat generating equipment such as power amplifiers. 

Lumagen's really focussing on the 4K/HDR capable Radiance Pro series (as you would expect) and has been dropping off the previous models. The 2123/2124 were just recently discontinued (no more left) and the remaining 2143/2144/2020 are on their last legs - one sold out that's it - it'll be Pro series only.

Cheers!

Kal


----------



## boothman

I will get a PRO but sorry to hear the 2124's are gone as I need one.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

boothman said:


> I will get a PRO but sorry to hear the 2124's are gone as I need one.


I'd get in touch with Lumagen as i think they might do a deal on a 2144 for 2124 price...you can only ask!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Gordon Fraser said:


> I'd get in touch with Lumagen as i think they might do a deal on a 2144 for 2124 price...you can only ask!


I have a 2143 for sale. If interested AVS PM me!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Recently been at @ARROW-AV Science AV Lab  And he was surprised how good Lumagen can do the Job on HDR Tone Mapping. I've brought my SONY VPL-VW760ES calibrated at my own environment with i1d3 (I know not the best spectrometer) using Lightspace 3D Lut 17x17x17 size. Hooking it up in the chain at ARROW-AV AV Lab, he had brand new VW760ES out of the box uncalibrated and latest JVC X9900 Bulb Calibrated, the best picture was thrown by my PJ chained via my Lumagen Pro 4444 and it was a stunning pop out with very rich colours, calibrated, no crushing blacks or whites, image was outstanding. He hooked up UHD HDR10 Test Pattern discs and viewed well known reference 4k photos and his response was, wow great colours. And we agreed both that it is almost impossible to convince a person to buy that unit and explain that it worth every penny you spend theoretically, as you must see the difference by yourself. Jim's team is doing great job and I'm looking forward for the upcoming features to be released.


----------



## bearcat2017

Threw the UHD Cars 3 in and after calibration and tone mapping on...this is what is outputted on my Sony 600ES. Simply awesome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alex_t

Dear all,

Below a very important post from Jim, I believe it gave a good idea of what the PRO roadmap might be for HDR:

source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-76.html#post55280060

(HLG is also in the roadmap)



jrp said:


> *I forgot to update the webinar slides with the fact we now plan for the new 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT to have 257 points*. I gave Light Illusion the choice of 129 and 257 and they picked 257. We are in agreement (I believe) that there is no practical reason to have this new 1D LUT be larger than 257 points. In addition, Light Illusion said the current 21-point 1D LUT is fine as it stands for them since it is used for the initial pass of grayscale with the 3D LUT, and the new 257 point 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT will be used to fine tune the grayscale and Gamma.
> 
> A note on Transition. For >2500 nit MaxCLL we recommend a setting of 10. However, one video expert (I will let him identify himself so as to not pull him info having to comment unless he wants to) found that with his JVC 4500 he could make the change for >2500 nit sources from Display Max Light = 500, Transition = 10, Shape = 3, to Display Max Light = 100, Transition = 10, Shape = 6 (might have been 5) and it actually improved the image in the darkest portion of the scene while keeping the mid intensity and highlights just as high quality. This is excellent feedback, and may change our recommendations going forward if others find this to be true for their systems. This is something you should try if you are so inclined.
> 
> *We have no current plans to increase the size of the 3D LUT. Never say never, but we would not even consider this until we have pretty much everything else implemented to make sure we have enough room in the FPGA*. While we believe the proposed 257 point 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT will improve the user perception of the image, we are not as convinced that going from a 17x17x17 point to a 65x65x65 point 3D LUT will provide a significantly improved calibration, especially for a well designed (i.e. reasonably linear response) projector/TV.
> 
> *We hope to add our own dynamic MaxCLL calculation and dynamic adaptation to this data in the Pro*. You may be interested in the "debug tool" MaxCLL and Max-Linear-Y profile tool now built into the Pro as an investigative tool for this effort. You can enter MENU 0532, select Profile, and start the profile tool. It has a timer so you can capture a specific amount of time (in minutes) from the HDR source. It does not respond until the set minimum pixel count (Filt) is reached. To compute the data, intensities are grouped into region buckets. These two features make the reported MaxCLL somewhat different than the official MaxCLL calculation, but also makes the information more useful to us. For example, we do not believe the the transfer function should be perturbed because a single pixels has a value much higher than all other pixels which the HDR MaxCLL would do as it is defined. I change the filter size, and then back, to restart the profile.
> 
> NOTE: The MENU 0532 command reduces the image quality slightly since it hijacks a portion of the logic to do the profile.
> 
> NOTE: The Menu 0532 command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame.
> 
> We find it interesting that MaxCLL and Max-Linear-Y (Luma) usually end up at about the same value. Also, due to how we calculate MaxCLL, expect our number to be slightly less than a correctly reported MaxCLL from the source.
> 
> As a debug feature you can temporarily override the HDR Info Frame MaxCLL using the MENU 0533 debug command. Change "Auto" to "Off" and set the MaxCLL you want to test for the source. You can then toggle "Auto" from on to off and back to see if the image changes. This is interesting for a source device that incorrectly reports MaxCLL.
> 
> If we do add Dynamic MaxCLL calculation to get our own version of Dynamic Metadata, we would certainly interpolate between the 2500 nit HDR Parameters since it might not look good to jump from one set to the other. Instead we would weight each set of parameters based on the calculated MaxCLL. We are considering this even with the current Static Meta Data approach as it makes sense.
> 
> Thanks for your feedback on games for the "Default Max" for sources not reporting info in the HDR Info Frame. I do not have any personal experience with these games and so feedback from those who do is much appreciated.


----------



## Steradian

Are the Radiance Pro innards capable of 5K (5120 x 2880)? 5K is the only resolution that is an even integer of NTSC (480i/p) and PAL (576i/p) SD/ED sources. Any plans to include 5K display support in the future? If so, at 72 fps also?


----------



## mikigio

good morning to all, I own a Lumagen 4242, I made Lut with Calman of which I am satisfied (excellent yield) but I still have free memories and I also own the software LightSpace ... reading your's speeches now I'm curious to try a Lut with LS too , my question is:

if I load a Lut made with LS on a free memory ... alter or modify the yield of those already saved obtained with calman?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mikigio said:


> good morning to all, I own a Lumagen 4242, I made Lut with Calman of which I am satisfied (excellent yield) but I still have free memories and I also own the software LightSpace ... reading your's speeches now I'm curious to try a Lut with LS too , my question is:
> 
> if I load a Lut made with LS on a free memory ... alter or modify the yield of those already saved obtained with calman?


The easiest way to do this is to use a seperate memory on the input you want to test. Once you have selected this memory you can assign one of your unused CMS bank numbers to that memory and then you can do your profile and upload your LUT. As long as the LUT you created with Calman is not in use when you are uploading the LightSpace LUT it will not be corrupted.

To doubly make sure you can download the Lumagen config editor from their site and rip the config out of your scaler and save it to your pc. or

MENU 0 9 1 0 to turn on service mode
MENU 0 9 9 7 to SAVE TO BACK UP.
MENU 0 9 1 0 to turn service mode off.

Now in the MENU>SAVE> section of the scaler you have the option to load the current configuration even if you overwrite the current one by accident


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## ARROW-AV

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Recently been at @ARROW-AV Science AV Lab  And he was surprised how good Lumagen can do the Job on HDR Tone Mapping. I've brought my SONY VPL-VW760ES calibrated at my own environment with i1d3 (I know not the best spectrometer) using Lightspace 3D Lut 17x17x17 size. Hooking it up in the chain at ARROW-AV AV Lab, he had brand new VW760ES out of the box uncalibrated and latest JVC X9900 Bulb Calibrated, the best picture was thrown by my PJ chained via my Lumagen Pro 4444 and it was a stunning pop out with very rich colours, calibrated, no crushing blacks or whites, image was outstanding. He hooked up UHD HDR10 Test Pattern discs and viewed well known reference 4k photos and his response was, wow great colours. And we agreed both that it is almost impossible to convince a person to buy that unit and explain that it worth every penny you spend theoretically, as you must see the difference by yourself. Jim's team is doing great job and I'm looking forward for the upcoming features to be released.


It was an absolute pleasure to meet you Serge. As it happens I wasn't surprised by the improvements to the video performance which the LUMAGEN PRO added, especially given the absence of a proper CMS with SONY products, which you will hopefully remember my mentioning. 

But yes indeed there is a significant and very noticeable improvement with respect to the video performance and it's not slight either! The colour performance in particular with the SONY 760/885ES is very much improved. Really takes things up a notch. 

That said, it can indeed require some convincing given the additional cost, so absolutely the best thing is for folks who need such convincing is to experience what it adds to the video performance.

As far as performance upgrades are concerned the LUMAGEN PRO certainly delivers that's for sure. No question about that. And the difference is very significant IMO. So a hearty congrats to Jim and his team and @Gordon Fraser for all their hard work developing and evolving the product. It really is superb and the results speak for themselves.

Anyone who has any doubts regarding what a LUMAGEN PRO can do and the extent to which it can enhance and upgrade the video performance of whatever video display device should experience it for themselves. I consider that even the doubtiest of Doubting Thomases will be convinced! It really is amazing.

:smile:


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> The easiest way to do this is to use a seperate memory on the input you want to test. Once you have selected this memory you can assign one of your unused CMS bank numbers to that memory and then you can do your profile and upload your LUT. As long as the LUT you created with Calman is not in use when you are uploading the LightSpace LUT it will not be corrupted.
> 
> To doubly make sure you can download the Lumagen config editor from their site and rip the config out of your scaler and save it to your pc. or
> 
> MENU 0 9 1 0 to turn on service mode
> MENU 0 9 9 7 to SAVE TO BACK UP.
> MENU 0 9 1 0 to turn service mode off.
> 
> Now in the MENU>SAVE> section of the scaler you have the option to load the current configuration even if you overwrite the current one by accident



Thank you very much.


----------



## KarlKlammer

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Recently been at @*ARROW-AV* Science AV Lab  And he was surprised how good Lumagen can do the Job on HDR Tone Mapping. I've brought my SONY VPL-VW760ES calibrated at my own environment with i1d3 (I know not the best spectrometer) using Lightspace 3D Lut 17x17x17 size. Hooking it up in the chain at ARROW-AV AV Lab, he had brand new VW760ES out of the box uncalibrated and latest JVC X9900 Bulb Calibrated, the best picture was thrown by my PJ chained via my Lumagen Pro 4444 and it was a stunning pop out with very rich colours, calibrated, no crushing blacks or whites, image was outstanding. He hooked up UHD HDR10 Test Pattern discs and viewed well known reference 4k photos and his response was, wow great colours. And we agreed both that it is almost impossible to convince a person to buy that unit and explain that it worth every penny you spend theoretically, as you must see the difference by yourself. Jim's team is doing great job and I'm looking forward for the upcoming features to be released.


I recently had a similar experience when I compared my combination of X9500/Radiance Pro against a Z1 with a custom gamma curve. The Z1 had some noticeable problems there. 
With the Radiance Pro, Intensity Mapping and LightSpace HDR has become relaxing compared to fiddling with custom gamma curves and internal CMS of the projectors.
Nevertheless I would welcome dynamic MaxCLL calculation. We can't leave that up to oppo and madVR.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

ARROW-AV said:


> It was an absolute pleasure to meet you Serge. As it happens I wasn't surprised by the improvements to the video performance which the LUMAGEN PRO added, especially given the absence of a proper CMS with SONY products, which you will hopefully remember my mentioning.
> 
> But yes indeed there is a significant and very noticeable improvement with respect to the video performance and it's not slight either! The colour performance in particular with the SONY 760/885ES is very much improved. Really takes things up a notch.
> 
> That said, it can indeed require some convincing given the additional cost, so absolutely the best thing is for folks who need such convincing is to experience what it adds to the video performance.
> 
> As far as performance upgrades are concerned the LUMAGEN PRO certainly delivers that's for sure. No question about that. And the difference is very significant IMO. So a hearty congrats to Jim and his team and @Gordon Fraser for all their hard work developing and evolving the product. It really is superb and the results speak for themselves.
> 
> Anyone who has any doubts regarding what a LUMAGEN PRO can do and the extent to which it can enhance and upgrade the video performance of whatever video display device should experience it for themselves. I consider that even the doubtiest of Doubting Thomases will be convinced! It really is amazing.
> 
> :smile:


Hi Nigel, it was a pleasure as well to meet you and thank you so much for inviting and spending your time with me to go through some things together. Apart from Video Calibration comparison experience, thank you for giving me the best experience of Sound I've ever experienced in my life  This is something I will definitely own in my own bat cave Cinema Room. Looking forward to meet you again Nigel.


----------



## roxiedog13

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Recently been at @*ARROW-AV* Science AV Lab  And he was surprised how good Lumagen can do the Job on HDR Tone Mapping. I've brought my SONY VPL-VW760ES calibrated at my own environment with i1d3 (I know not the best spectrometer) using Lightspace 3D Lut 17x17x17 size. Hooking it up in the chain at ARROW-AV AV Lab, he had brand new VW760ES out of the box uncalibrated and latest JVC X9900 Bulb Calibrated, the best picture was thrown by my PJ chained via my Lumagen Pro 4444 and it was a stunning pop out with very rich colours, calibrated, no crushing blacks or whites, image was outstanding. He hooked up UHD HDR10 Test Pattern discs and viewed well known reference 4k photos and his response was, wow great colours. And we agreed both that it is almost impossible to convince a person to buy that unit and explain that it worth every penny you spend theoretically, as you must see the difference by yourself. Jim's team is doing great job and I'm looking forward for the upcoming features to be released.


I just returned from vacation, a new i1D3 ( Display 3 Pro) waiting for me at the post office. Chromapure profiled it for the laser projector ( VW885) combined with my lumagen pro should yield the same results you have . There are better spectrometers out there for sure, will see how this works out first before I invest in something more expensive/accurate.

Did you have your x-rite profiled for laser ?


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## SoulOfUniverse

roxiedog13 said:


> I just returned from vacation, a new i1D3 ( Display 3 Pro) waiting for me at the post office. Chromapure profiled it for the laser projector ( VW885) combined with my lumagen pro should yield the same results you have . There are better spectrometers out there for sure, will see how this works out first before I invest in something more expensive/accurate.
> 
> Did you have your x-rite profiled for laser ?




I am not sure what you exactly mean by profiling for laser, but if you relate to profiling probes with more precise spectroradiometers , then yes it was profiled with CR-300 spectroradiometer for my 885 unit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## roxiedog13

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I am not sure what you exactly mean by profiling for laser, but if you relate to profiling probes with more precise spectroradiometers , then yes it was profiled with CR-300 spectroradiometer for my 885 unit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes indeed that is what I meant , mine also profiled with the CR-300 .


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## SoulOfUniverse

roxiedog13 said:


> Yes indeed that is what I meant , mine also profiled with the CR-300 .


Yes we profiled it against CR-300 this Saturday with Nigel, so just to let you know the results he seen with my lumagen an dprojector, this is the calibration work I've done with unmatched (unprofiled) i1displaypro in my own environment. I haven't tried yet recalibrating the unit with profiled i1 display pro spectrometer, but will be doing that very soon. Once its done I will most likely record the video or will write the document describing the process of calibration via Lumagen Pro using LightSpace software.


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## roxiedog13

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Yes we profiled it against CR-300 this Saturday with Nigel, so just to let you know the results he seen with my lumagen an dprojector, this is the calibration work I've done with unmatched (unprofiled) i1displaypro in my own environment. I haven't tried yet recalibrating the unit with profiled i1 display pro spectrometer, but will be doing that very soon. Once its done I will most likely record the video or will write the document describing the process of calibration via Lumagen Pro using LightSpace software.


Fantastic, look forward to the results. I also had the un-profiled i1display pro , I resisted calibrating with that , realistically just didn't have the time more than anything. I may do as you have and compare the results. Obviously the i1display results you considered were indeed very good. Knowing these combinations will produce great results is very encouraging , especially for the many that cannot afford a more accurate and much more expensive spectrometer .


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## SJHT

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Gordon, I was thinking to give you a credit anyway and send it to you before publishing, so may be I could start the document and we could work on it both as like collaborate?


Any update on this?  SJ


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

SJHT said:


> Any update on this?  SJ




Hi Sj, 

Unfortunately I was very busy and was away off the UK for a whole month. Very soon I will be recalibrating the unit again and will either record video or create a document on how to, and for sure will share with the community.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Bruzonsky

If one wants to properly compare the Oppo UDP-203/205 HDR tone mapping to using the Radiance Pro for this, the Oppo tone mapping must be set to the correct nits. At various threads here at AVS forum I have seen folks using numbers for nits that I would guess at much higher than the actual measured fl off the screen.
For example, when Ken Whitcomb calibrated my setup including the Sony VPL-5000ES projector, he measured at 90% laser power 29 fl. As 30 fl = 100 nits, I would think the proper tone mapping setting for the Oppo would be 100 nits. Comments?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If one wants to properly compare the Oppo UDP-203/205 HDR tone mapping to using the Radiance Pro for this, the Oppo tone mapping must be set to the correct nits. At various threads here at AVS forum I have seen folks using numbers for nits that I would guess at much higher than the actual measured fl off the screen.
> 
> For example, when Ken Whitcomb calibrated my setup including the Sony VPL-5000ES projector, he measured at 90% laser power 29 fl. As 30 fl = 100 nits, I would think the proper tone mapping setting for the Oppo would be 100 nits. Comments?



Hi Steve,

I personally think MaxDisplayLight setting in Lumagen is not really reflecting the capability of TV/Projector to output nits, but instead this is used to calculate the Ratio on how other functions are applied (Shape, Trans) as Shape is responsible for changing the transition curve from low “nit for nit” intensities to brighter highlight intensities for the current input and Input Memory, Trans is responsible for controlling the intensity range to match “nit for nit” for the Current Input and Input Memory. Now this ratio is calculated by formula maxCLL/maxDisplayLight you should really check yourself what best value matches the best quality, I think in the future the plan is for Lumagen doing it automatically and correcting errors such as incorrect maxCLL set in mastered content and other parameters that algorithm of tone mapping relies on. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## baseball0618

Has anyone used ChromaPure for calibrating through the Radiance pro? If so what are your thoughts on how well it works?


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## D_B_0673

baseball0618 said:


> Has anyone used ChromaPure for calibrating through the Radiance pro? If so what are your thoughts on how well it works?


I have using the newest beta from ChromaPure. Superb results on rec 709, I am just trying the SDR2020, have not tried HDR 2020. I barely understand the Lumagen, so it is a slow process for me, but Auto Cal and REC 709 was great.


----------



## baseball0618

D_B_0673 said:


> I have using the newest beta from ChromaPure. Superb results on rec 709, I am just trying the SDR2020, have not tried HDR 2020. I barely understand the Lumagen, so it is a slow process for me, but Auto Cal and REC 709 was great.


When you get some time calibrating for HDR I'd appreciate your thoughts

Thanks!


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## kal

D_B_0673 said:


> I have using the newest beta from ChromaPure. Superb results on rec 709


FYI - A hint I always recommend for someone new the ChromaPure/Lumagen auto-cal (or really any method of autocal for that matter) is to start with only a 125 point autocal in Rec709 to make sure all goes well with how you have things set up before doing a full blown 4913 point autocal. The 125 point is quick to run assuming you have a reasonably fast meter. Once you see the results are where you expect them based on your settings, you can then run a full blown 4913 point (which can take a few hours). Good luck!

Kal


----------



## D_B_0673

kal said:


> FYI - A hint I always recommend for someone new the ChromaPure/Lumagen auto-cal (or really any method of autocal for that matter) is to start with only a 125 point autocal in Rec709 to make sure all goes well with how you have things set up before doing a full blown 4913 point autocal. The 125 point is quick to run assuming you have a reasonably fast meter. Once you see the results are where you expect them based on your settings, you can then run a full blown 4913 point (which can take a few hours). Good luck!
> 
> Kal


Thanks, I did use the 125 (blind luck i guess), but I am totally lost for HDR, tone mapping and most of what is talked about here.


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## D_B_0673

baseball0618 said:


> When you get some time calibrating for HDR I'd appreciate your thoughts
> 
> Thanks!


that might be a while as i don't understand what I need for HDR. Do you have ChromaPure?


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## Kelvin1965S

D_B_0673 said:


> I have using the newest beta from ChromaPure. Superb results on rec 709, I am just trying the SDR2020, have not tried HDR 2020. I barely understand the Lumagen, so it is a slow process for me, but Auto Cal and REC 709 was great.


Good to hear; I'm currently watching from the sidelines, still using an older 2041 and Chromapure 2 but I know eventually I'll follow your path.


----------



## tibia

baseball0618 said:


> Has anyone used ChromaPure for calibrating through the Radiance pro? If so what are your thoughts on how well it works?


I am a long time user of Chromapure and Lumagen Radiance Pro. I also live 25 minutes drive from Lumagen's headquarters. Jim Peterson was gracious enough to spend some face-to-face time with me going over the problems associated with HDR versus SDR calibrations. Also, I have had many email exchanges with Tom Huffman from Chromapure on this subject. Jim Peterson is emphatic that SDR2020 calibrations are the better way to go especially for projectors. I have a JVC RS600 and have never tried to manually calibrate it. I always use Chrompaure Auto-Calibration.

Auto-Calibration will try to calibrate to Chromapure HDR10 or HDR10-Projector gamma. It will be successful up to signal intensities up to about 50%. Above that everything is white clipped and the results are terrible because the projector had already reached its maximum light output. With a fresh lamp or laser light source projector the white clip point could be higher. Furthermore, once the projector has reached maximum light output there is nothing left for the Pro's Intensity Mapping algorithm to work with. Turning it on makes the resulting image completely unwatchable.

On the other hand, if you setup both Chromapure and the Pro to do SDR2020 calibration but using a Rec 709 source and 2.4 power law gamma Auto-Calibration works fantastically well. After running Auto-Cal turn on Pro's Intensity Mapping to put the sparkle back in the image. You really need to be comfortable navigating the Pro's menu to get the setup correct because it is somewhat detailed.


----------



## MJV29

Yes, Chromapure autocal does a great job calibrating with the Radiance Pro. I am new to all of it as well but I could tell a difference and it was a great improvement. I have LightSpace as well as Chromapure and I am just stepping into the water with both the programs. Any info anyone has to get the most out of my JVC RS600 would be appreciated. I haven?t turned on the intensity mapping on the Lumagen yet, just been way to busy. Can?t wait to see how much that helps the picture come to life.


----------



## arthurli

*autocal 709 in sdr2020?*



tibia said:


> On the other hand, if you setup both Chromapure and the Pro to do SDR2020 calibration but using a Rec 709 source and 2.4 power law gamma Auto-Calibration works fantastically well. After running Auto-Cal turn on Pro's Intensity Mapping to put the sparkle back in the image. You really need to be comfortable navigating the Pro's menu to get the setup correct because it is somewhat detailed.


 
Is the fallowing auto cal procedure correct?
1) Select CMS0 in Lumange Pro , Colorspace SDR2020.
2) Autocalibrate with 3D Autocal Software, SDR709 ,Gamma 2.4 .
3)Copy CMS0 to CMS1
4)When watch HDR source , enable CMS1 HDR Mapping, set Gamma to 3D LUT =SDR


Thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

arthurli said:


> Is the fallowing auto cal procedure correct?
> 1) Select CMS0 in Lumange Pro , Colorspace SDR2020.
> 2) Autocalibrate with 3D Autocal Software, SDR709 ,Gamma 2.4 .
> 3)Copy CMS0 to CMS1
> 4)When watch HDR source , enable CMS1 HDR Mapping, set Gamma to 3D LUT =SDR
> 
> Thanks


I am not familier with latest Chromapurebut i can add the following.
1) I find that with a few projectors you do not want to set CMS colourspace to SDR/REC2020. This is because the REC2020 data from Radiance sends them projector in to it's REC2020 colourspace and this is usually achieved in the projector by putting a filter in the lightpath, reducing light output, sometimes considerably, and also by the projector then doing some form of internal CMS that is usualy non linear in its errors and makes it harder for a LUT to fix if there is an option i send SDR/REC709 and see if i can find a colourgamut setting in the proejctor that is Native and is close to DCI
2) I would expect that at this point you would not calibrte for SDR/REC709 GAMMA2.4 You want to aim for REC2020 Gamma 2.4
3) agree
4) agree


----------



## arthurli

Gordon Fraser said:


> I am not familier with latest Chromapurebut i can add the following.
> 1) I find that with a few projectors you do not want to set CMS colourspace to SDR/REC2020. This is because the REC2020 data from Radiance sends them projector in to it's REC2020 colourspace and this is usually achieved in the projector by putting a filter in the lightpath, reducing light output, sometimes considerably, and also by the projector then doing some form of internal CMS that is usualy non linear in its errors and makes it harder for a LUT to fix if there is an option i send SDR/REC709 and see if i can find a colourgamut setting in the proejctor that is Native and is close to DCI
> 2) I would expect that at this point you would not calibrte for SDR/REC709 GAMMA2.4 You want to aim for REC2020 Gamma 2.4
> 3) agree
> 4) agree


1)I am calibrating Oled tv,
2) I am using Calman, not CP3.How to autocal SDR2020? I am trying to learn from Jim's "Radiance Pro Training.PDF"


----------



## Gordon Fraser

arthurli said:


> 1)I am calibrating Oled tv,
> 2) I am using Calman, not CP3.How to autocal SDR2020? I am trying to learn from Jim's "Radiance Pro Training.PDF"


You should ask how to autocal REC2020 GAMMA 2.4 on calman support forum. I no longer use it so cannot advise on steps you need to take with that software. Sorry. 

If you are using an OLED though then it gets more complicated. I am with client right now so cannot go in to steps i'd take...


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> I am not familier with latest Chromapurebut i can add the following.
> 1) I find that with a few projectors you do not want to set CMS colourspace to SDR/REC2020. This is because the REC2020 data from Radiance sends them projector in to it's REC2020 colourspace and this is usually achieved in the projector by putting a filter in the lightpath, reducing light output, sometimes considerably, and also by the projector then doing some form of internal CMS that is usualy non linear in its errors and makes it harder for a LUT to fix if there is an option i send SDR/REC709 and see if i can find a colourgamut setting in the proejctor that is Native and is close to DCI
> 2) I would expect that at this point you would not calibrte for SDR/REC709 GAMMA2.4 You want to aim for REC2020 Gamma 2.4
> 3) agree
> 4) agree


Gordon, I am confused.
You say in line 1 that REC2020 causes the filter to be engaged, but say in line 2 to aim for REC2020
Won't the filter still be engaged?
I probably have one of those projectors (JVC 640) but do not know how to tell if the filter has engaged or it is doing the other things you speak about


----------



## KarlKlammer

The JVCs only engage the filter if Radiance CMS Colourspace is set to HDR2020 or HDR metadata is passed to them any other way. Apart from that they don't switch picture modes automatically.


----------



## Mark_H

Gordon Fraser said:


> You should ask how to autocal REC2020 GAMMA 2.4 on calman support forum. I no longer use it so cannot advise on steps you need to take with that software. Sorry.
> 
> If you are using an OLED though then it gets more complicated. I am with client right now so cannot go in to steps i'd take...


With CalMAN, forget doing the 3D AutoCal with 2020. No current display can hit 2020 primaries, and the resulting 3D LUT will be messed up. The better approach, for now, is to correct the white point on the display and then do only a 1D LUT, eg greyscale, which will fix much of the colour cast in the 2020 image, while leaving the display's primaries alone. This can go a long way to getting great results. On my Z1 projector I get almost perfect P3 results within 2020 this way. On my OLED it's not quite as good, but still much much better than nothing at all.

Settings to use, especially if you then intend to use the Pros HDR Intensity Mapping in CalMAN is:

Colourspace: 2020 SDR
Gamma: Power 2.4

PM me if you need specific questions answered.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

D_B_0673 said:


> Gordon, I am confused.
> You say in line 1 that REC2020 causes the filter to be engaged, but say in line 2 to aim for REC2020
> Won't the filter still be engaged?
> I probably have one of those projectors (JVC 640) but do not know how to tell if the filter has engaged or it is doing the other things you speak about


Others have answered but for clarity. Some displays will engage their rec2020 colour decoding when sent SDR/REC2020 colourspace format in the Lumagen. 

Line 2 is a separate issue. That is about what you are trying to get the calibration software to do.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

D_B_0673 said:


> Gordon, I am confused.
> You say in line 1 that REC2020 causes the filter to be engaged, but say in line 2 to aim for REC2020
> Won't the filter still be engaged?
> I probably have one of those projectors (JVC 640) but do not know how to tell if the filter has engaged or it is doing the other things you speak about


Others have answered but for clarity. Some displays will engage their rec2020 colour decoding when sent SDR/REC2020 colourspace format in the Lumagen. 

Line 2 is a separate issue. That is about what you are trying to get the calibration software to do.


----------



## D_B_0673

KarlKlammer said:


> The JVCs only engage the filter if Radiance CMS Colourspace is set to HDR2020 or HDR metadata is passed to them any other way. Apart from that they don't switch picture modes automatically.


So If I have CMS1 set to output SDR2020, does that mean NO HDR metadata is being passed to the projector?
I apologize for my poor understanding of this
thanks


----------



## KarlKlammer

D_B_0673 said:


> So If I have CMS1 set to output SDR2020, does that mean NO HDR metadata is being passed to the projector?


Yes, there will be no HDR metadata passed to the projector if you do this.


----------



## D_B_0673

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, there will be no HDR metadata passed to the projector if you do this.


 thanks, your advice greatly appreciated


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

D_B_0673 said:


> Gordon, I am confused.
> You say in line 1 that REC2020 causes the filter to be engaged, but say in line 2 to aim for REC2020
> Won't the filter still be engaged?
> I probably have one of those projectors (JVC 640) but do not know how to tell if the filter has engaged or it is doing the other things you speak about




What Gordon is referring to, is not using sdr 2020 colour space in Lumagen and use sdr 709 instead, but use Rec2020 as a target reference when you take measurements (this relates to chromapure) this is very important, as when LUT is sent to Lumagen to do the Tone Mapping it expects it in SDR2020 container (in light space software which I use now a lot as well, you can define what target gamut you are referencing to) the same should be in ChromaPure, but I could not remember where as I stopped using it 6 months ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## D_B_0673

SoulOfUniverse said:


> What Gordon is referring to, is not using sdr 2020 colour space in Lumagen and use sdr 709 instead, but use Rec2020 as a target reference when you take measurements (this relates to chromapure) this is very important, as when LUT is sent to Lumagen to do the Tone Mapping it expects it in SDR2020 container (in light space software which I use now a lot as well, you can define what target gamut you are referencing to) the same should be in ChromaPure, but I could not remember where as I stopped using it 6 months ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think that is what I did (as far as the calibration in ChromaPure) I chose rec2020 as Reference Gamut in options and SDR2020 in the initial set up and in the Auto Cal module.
I have not turned on Tone mapping (might bother Jim again) as I am not too sure of what the steps are.


----------



## D_B_0673

My SDR2020 calibration not as bright as the REC709 (which looks superb) I might have done something wrong with Chromapure. Looking at Jims slide show, he says 
Select a SDR source (will select CMS0)
Set CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020
I missed that as i was following the ChromaPure instructions, and left CMS0 =Rec709
Do you think that could be the problem.
Also I have not engaged the tone mapping yet, don't understand.
The JVC is reporting (with 4k disk Lumagen=SDR2020) Colorimetry= BT2020.
I don't know if the filter has been engaged and don't know how to tell, but I thought that if Lumagen was outputting SDR2020, the filter would not engage


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

D_B_0673 said:


> I think that is what I did (as far as the calibration in ChromaPure) I chose rec2020 as Reference Gamut in options and SDR2020 in the initial set up and in the Auto Cal module.
> I have not turned on Tone mapping (might bother Jim again) as I am not too sure of what the steps are.




I would choose sdr709 in Lumagen instead of Sdr2020. Correct don’t turn on Tone Mapping when you do a calibration. As I remember in Chroma pure with auroral, you need to set brightness and contrast, also in Lumagen adjust the black level with Reference test pattern Contrast 2. Then you calibrate grayscale most important are 80% IRE and 100% IRE but if you can remove errors on 30% IRE with a rule of thumb, then it’s even better. After you done with that, you then run auto cal on chromapure. When it’s finished go to hdr mapping and turn it on. There is a manual for ChromaPure andI think the process for HDR calibration should be described there as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## D_B_0673

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I would choose sdr709 in Lumagen instead of Sdr2020. Correct don’t turn on Tone Mapping when you do a calibration. As I remember in Chroma pure with auroral, you need to set brightness and contrast, also in Lumagen adjust the black level with Reference test pattern Contrast 2. Then you calibrate grayscale most important are 80% IRE and 100% IRE but if you can remove errors on 30% IRE with a rule of thumb, then it’s even better. After you done with that, you then run auto cal on chromapure. When it’s finished go to hdr mapping and turn it on. There is a manual for ChromaPure andI think the process for HDR calibration should be described there as well
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


thanks, I had the brightness and contrast set when I had done the Rec 709 calibration on CMS0. I thought I would not have to change that. Other thann "turning tone mapping on", is there anything else with Tone Mapping that I need to know?


----------



## tibia

arthurli said:


> Is the fallowing auto cal procedure correct?
> 1) Select CMS0 in Lumange Pro , Colorspace SDR2020.
> 2) Autocalibrate with 3D Autocal Software, SDR709 ,Gamma 2.4 .
> 3)Copy CMS0 to CMS1
> 4)When watch HDR source , enable CMS1 HDR Mapping, set Gamma to 3D LUT =SDR
> 
> 
> Thanks


Before replying to your questions please input a 1080p source to the Pro, bluray disc or cable box. 

1) In Output Setup under column heading "601/709" you will see CMS0. Change this to CMS1. Then go to Output CMS's CMS1 and select or confirm Colorspace=SDR2020. 
2) In Chromapure Initial Setup select colorspace=YCbCr422-709 and Color Intensity to 100%. In Options set Gamut to Rec 709 and Gamma to 2.4. 
In Auto-Calibration Setup set Gamma Target=2.4. Set Grayscale Mode=12 point and SDR2020. Uncheck Reset. Check Grayscale Calibration and Matrix Calibration 729 points. Check Filter Colors Outside Display Gamut. Click Next.
Now click Measure. After RGB pattern sequence set Intensity Filter intensity to 100% and click Filter followed by Apply. Proceed with Auto-Cal.
3) Don't copy anything. Go back to step 1 and where you previously changed CMS0 to CMS1 under the 601/709 column, change it back to CMS0.
4) Check your UHD player and be sure it is set to output HDR2020. No HDR to SDR conversion or Strip MetaData.
Play a UHD 4K bluray. The Pro will recognize it as HDR2020 and use CMS1 in the HDR2020 column you just calibrated while it was temporarily set in the 601/709 column. 
Because you set CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020 that is what the Pro will send to the projector. If you have a JVC projector it will not go to Gamma D because you sent it a SDR signal, not HDR.
Because the Pro recognized you supplied it with a 4K image it will automatically enable Intensity Mapping. There are two places where you can check and adjust Intensity Mapping---Output>CMS's>CMS1>HDR Mapping and Input>Options>HDR Setup.

Good luck.


----------



## jrp

I was away on vacation and ended up getting both the Flu and Bronchitis. Not completely better, but I am back to work. Thanks to all who have expressed wishes for my speedy-recovery.

===

Also, I really appreciate all the positive comments on the forum and by email on the image quality improvements using the Radiance Pro. We have worked hard on the Radiance Pro and your positive feedback makes the effort all the more worthwhile.

=== 

On the 21XX: We do not plan to build more, but have a good stock of the 2143 and a small stock of the 2144. We dropped pricing on the 2143 and 2144 to make them effectively have free upgrades to 4k output. Because of this we dropped the 2123 and 2124 from our price list. I expect we have four to six months of stock on the 2144, and maybe a year for the 2143, or perhaps more as it seems almost everyone is now ordering Pro's.

Note the 2XXX units cannot be upgraded to 4k sources, or HDCP 2.2, due to hardware limits of the chips used. We do give trade-in credit for them toward a Radiance Pro.

=== 

The 424X-C has identical electronics as the 424X 1U versions, and uses the same software. The FPGA will maintain the same temperature as in the 1U unit (based on temperature target setting), but the fan does need to run a little faster, and the smaller case will feel slightly warmer to the touch since there is less metal to disperse the heat. It is intended for smaller venues such as bedrooms, or for calibrators to carry to job sites. We don't expect to sell a lot of these but it kept coming up as a suggested product so we decided it made sense. Price is the same as the 424X 1U equivalent.

=== 

Several questions have come up on why there has been a longer time since a new release. Patrick has been very busy for the past month working on improving the Radiance Pro deinterlacing. We have known there were things to improve and Patrick has been addressing your feedback. Once released there should be a significant improvement for text (tickers and other scrolling text), film verses interlaced-video source (using cadence detection), and general artifact reduction.

This release of deinterlacing does not have a diagonal filter (we may or may not add one later). It also does not have full inverse-telecine to allow output of true film source received as 1080i or XXXXp60 at 24p (or 25p as appropriate).

We should have a release out next week with the improved deinterlacing.

=== 

When I tested a JVC 6XX it moved the Rec2020 color filter into place if it received the Rec 2020 flag, independent of SDR or HDR.

=== 

Choosing SDR 709 Pro output for HDR 2020 source can make sense. For projectors with a movable Rec 2020 filter you will have more light output with this setting, and if the projector has a Rec709 mode with a wide, reasonably linear, Gamut most HDR material will still look amazing - partly due to having more light output. As mentioned even when you set the Pro to output SDR709 for HDR source, you must still target Rec2020 primaries in the color software. Then the software will move the 3D LUT points to cover as much of the Rec 2020 Gamut as possible in the Rec709 wide Gamut mode.

=== 

One comment on quality with any output mode. I consider calibration like pulling on a string with rubber bands. Pull too hard and they break. What I mean by this analogy is that the less the 3D LUT points need to be moved the better the result should be. 

One way to get points closer before Autocal that people are not thinking about is if you have an under saturated image to start you can use the Radiance Pro Color and Color-Offset controls to increase the color gain for all three primaries (Color), or the red primary (Color Red) or the Green Primary (Color Green). You can do the opposite if the image starts over saturated. Do not adjust Hue or Hue Offsets (unless you are trying to correct a color decoder error). You can check your results doing a "Pre-cal" run on as many points as possible, given time available, after your Color/Offset adjustments.

Same holds true for Gamma and grayscale. When using the HDR Intensity Mapping the Gamma target is a straight 2.4 Gamma, the closer you are to these before Autocal the better, especially near black.

Generally we are hearing that you should measure over 3000 points before generating the 3D used for HDR 2020 sources. Since there are 4913 points in the 17x17x17 3D LUT, it actually makes sense to measure 4913 points either at the control points, or perhaps even better if the software (as Lightspace does) supports random and/or targeted areas for measurement, that might be even better. Of course if time is constrained measuring as many as possible is the best approach verses measuring a few points and extrapolating.

After the 3D LUT you should check Gamma and grayscale and perhaps manually tune the 21 points, or run 1D LUT Autocal again (still run it before the 3D LUT). As I have mentioned, we plan a 257 point 3D LUT in front of the 3D LUT in the Pro for this final step, but it is a ways out still. So in the mean time run the 21 point 1D LUT Autocal again (plus perhaps some manual tuning) after the 3D LUT.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> I was away on vacation and ended up getting both the Flu and Bronchitis. Not completely better, but I am back to work. Thanks to all who have expressed wishes for my speedy-recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I really appreciate all the positive comments on the forum and by email on the image quality improvements using the Radiance Pro. We have worked hard on the Radiance Pro and your positive feedback makes the effort all the more worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> On the 21XX: We do not plan to build more, but have a good stock of the 2143 and a small stock of the 2144. We dropped pricing on the 2143 and 2144 to make them effectively have free upgrades to 4k output. Because of this we dropped the 2123 and 2124 from our price list. I expect we have four to six months of stock on the 2144, and maybe a year for the 2143, or perhaps more as it seems almost everyone is now ordering Pro's.
> 
> 
> 
> Note the 2XXX units cannot be upgraded to 4k sources, or HDCP 2.2, due to hardware limits of the chips used. We do give trade-in credit for them toward a Radiance Pro.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> The 424X-C has identical electronics as the 424X 1U versions, and uses the same software. The FPGA will maintain the same temperature as in the 1U unit (based on temperature target setting), but the fan does need to run a little faster, and the smaller case will feel slightly warmer to the touch since there is less metal to disperse the heat. It is intended for smaller venues such as bedrooms, or for calibrators to carry to job sites. We don't expect to sell a lot of these but it kept coming up as a suggested product so we decided it made sense. Price is the same as the 424X 1U equivalent.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> Several questions have come up on why there has been a longer time since a new release. Patrick has been very busy for the past month working on improving the Radiance Pro deinterlacing. We have known there were things to improve and Patrick has been addressing your feedback. Once released there should be a significant improvement for text (tickers and other scrolling text), film verses interlaced-video source (using cadence detection), and general artifact reduction.
> 
> 
> 
> This release of deinterlacing does not have a diagonal filter (we may or may not add one later). It also does not have full inverse-telecine to allow output of true film source received as 1080i or XXXXp60 at 24p (or 25p as appropriate).
> 
> 
> 
> We should have a release out next week with the improved deinterlacing.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> When I tested a JVC 6XX it moved the Rec2020 color filter into place if it received the Rec 2020 flag, independent of SDR or HDR.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> Choosing SDR 709 Pro output for HDR 2020 source can make sense. For projectors with a movable Rec 2020 filter you will have more light output with this setting, and if the projector has a Rec709 mode with a wide, reasonably linear, Gamut most HDR material will still look amazing - partly due to having more light output. As mentioned even when you set the Pro to output SDR709 for HDR source, you must still target Rec2020 primaries in the color software. Then the software will move the 3D LUT points to cover as much of the Rec 2020 Gamut as possible in the Rec709 wide Gamut mode.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> One comment on quality with any output mode. I consider calibration like pulling on a string with rubber bands. Pull too hard and they break. What I mean by this analogy is that the less the 3D LUT points need to be moved the better the result should be.
> 
> 
> 
> One way to get points closer before Autocal that people are not thinking about is if you have an under saturated image to start you can use the Radiance Pro Color and Color-Offset controls to increase the color gain for all three primaries (Color), or the red primary (Color Red) or the Green Primary (Color Green). You can do the opposite if the image starts over saturated. Do not adjust Hue or Hue Offsets (unless you are trying to correct a color decoder error). You can check your results doing a "Pre-cal" run on as many points as possible, given time available, after your Color/Offset adjustments.
> 
> 
> 
> Same holds true for Gamma and grayscale. When using the HDR Intensity Mapping the Gamma target is a straight 2.4 Gamma, the closer you are to these before Autocal the better, especially near black.
> 
> 
> 
> Generally we are hearing that you should measure over 3000 points before generating the 3D used for HDR 2020 sources. Since there are 4913 points in the 17x17x17 3D LUT, it actually makes sense to measure 4913 points either at the control points, or perhaps even better if the software (as Lightspace does) supports random and/or targeted areas for measurement, that might be even better. Of course if time is constrained measuring as many as possible is the best approach verses measuring a few points and extrapolating.
> 
> 
> 
> After the 3D LUT you should check Gamma and grayscale and perhaps manually tune the 21 points, or run 1D LUT Autocal again (still run it before the 3D LUT). As I have mentioned, we plan a 257 point 3D LUT in front of the 3D LUT in the Pro for this final step, but it is a ways out still. So in the mean time run the 21 point 1D LUT Autocal again (plus perhaps some manual tuning) after the 3D LUT.




Get better Jim and speedy recovery, thank you again for your detailed responses. I will release a step by step documentation for those who has LightSpace and Lumagen in regards how to calibrate, which hopefully will help people to avoid confusion at initial steps and the workflow processes itself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## D_B_0673

Jim, you stated
When I tested a JVC 6XX it moved the Rec2020 color filter into place if it received the Rec 2020 flag, independent of SDR or HDR.

Choosing SDR 709 Pro output for HDR 2020 source can make sense. For projectors with a movable Rec 2020 filter you will have more light output with this setting, and if the projector has a Rec709 mode with a wide, reasonably linear, Gamut most HDR material will still look amazing - partly due to having more light output. As mentioned even when you set the Pro to output SDR709 for HDR source, you must still target Rec2020 primaries in the color software. Then the software will move the 3D LUT points to cover as much of the Rec 2020 Gamut as possible in the Rec709 wide Gamut mode.

1. When you say "you must still target Rec2020 primaries in the color software", does that mean in the calibration software?
2. Glad you confirmed that the JVC 6xx is moving the filter in place even with SDR2020 output, my SDR2020 was dimmer than the same scenes in REC709 ( used mad max disks to look) I could not tell if the filter was in place or not
3. So I should change my output of CMS1 to Rec709 after i do a SDR2020 calibration on CMS1... is that correct?
thanks as always
4. Is there a Strip Meta data that would allow the output to be SDR2020 and prevent the filter from engaging? Perhaps in the disk player or in Lumagen.


----------



## KarlKlammer

@D_B_0673
The filter is bound to the chosen colour profile. So everytime you select "Reference" or "BT.2020" as colour profile the filter gets engaged. You can only avoid this if you create a custom colour profile with JVC Autocal.


----------



## D_B_0673

KarlKlammer said:


> @*D_B_0673*
> The filter is bound to the chosen colour profile. So everytime you select "Reference" or "BT.2020" as colour profile the filter gets engaged. You can only avoid this if you create a custom colour profile with JVC Autocal.


thanks, 
that is another level of complexity that I don't understand and had hoped to avoid.


----------



## D_B_0673

tibia said:


> Before replying to your questions please input a 1080p source to the Pro, bluray disc or cable box.
> 
> 1) In Output Setup under column heading "601/709" you will see CMS0. Change this to CMS1. Then go to Output CMS's CMS1 and select or confirm Colorspace=SDR2020.
> 2) In Chromapure Initial Setup select colorspace=YCbCr422-709 and Color Intensity to 100%. In Options set Gamut to Rec 709 and Gamma to 2.4.
> In Auto-Calibration Setup set Gamma Target=2.4. Set Grayscale Mode=12 point and SDR2020. Uncheck Reset. Check Grayscale Calibration and Matrix Calibration 729 points. Check Filter Colors Outside Display Gamut. Click Next.
> Now click Measure. After RGB pattern sequence set Intensity Filter intensity to 100% and click Filter followed by Apply. Proceed with Auto-Cal.
> 3) Don't copy anything. Go back to step 1 and where you previously changed CMS0 to CMS1 under the 601/709 column, change it back to CMS0.
> 4) Check your UHD player and be sure it is set to output HDR2020. No HDR to SDR conversion or Strip MetaData.
> Play a UHD 4K bluray. The Pro will recognize it as HDR2020 and use CMS1 in the HDR2020 column you just calibrated while it was temporarily set in the 601/709 column.
> Because you set CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020 that is what the Pro will send to the projector. If you have a JVC projector it will not go to Gamma D because you sent it a SDR signal, not HDR.
> Because the Pro recognized you supplied it with a 4K image it will automatically enable Intensity Mapping. There are two places where you can check and adjust Intensity Mapping---Output>CMS's>CMS1>HDR Mapping and Input>Options>HDR Setup.
> 
> Good luck.


Could you clarify please
1. Once I change CMS0 to CMS1 and perform the calibration, do the calibration settings populate to all CMS1, (the original CMS1 that was set as 4k in and SDR2020 out)
2. More importantly, When I change it back to CMS0 is the REC709 calibration that I had done on CMS0 still there or do I need to recalibrate it under REC709
3. Unfortunately as Jim mentioned , it seems that although the JVC will not revert to Gamma D, it does engage the filter that cuts brightness.


----------



## KarlKlammer

D_B_0673 said:


> thanks,
> that is another level of complexity that I don't understand and had hoped to avoid.


You can find such a profile in the first post of the JVC Autocalibration thread
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...dels-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600.html

By using "REC-2020NF" your DCI-P3 gamut coverage will drop from about 98% to about 88% and you will gain ~10% brightness.

Edit:
If you create a custom colour profile or use one of the above you should make sure to select the one suitable for your software. I don't know about Chromapure. But for LightSpace you should use DCI-P3 and not BT.2020.


----------



## mikela

KarlKlammer said:


> @D_B_0673
> The filter is bound to the chosen colour profile. So everytime you select "Reference" or "BT.2020" as colour profile the filter gets engaged. You can only avoid this if you create a custom colour profile with JVC Autocal.


I haven't read through the JVC Autocal thread yet. I assume the information for doing this is located there?

edit: Just read your post above...thanks!


----------



## D_B_0673

KarlKlammer said:


> You can find such a profile in the first post of the JVC Autocalibration thread
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...dels-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600.html
> 
> By using "REC-2020NF" your DCI-P3 gamut coverage will drop from about 98% to about 88% and you will gain ~10% brightness.


I see it, just don't know how to get it into the JVC
I do appreciate your help and I have tried reading the Auto cal thread in the past, it makes my head spin, which is why I purchased ChromaPure Auto cal.
I will keep this in mind and see if I can figure it out


----------



## tibia

D_B_0673 said:


> Could you clarify please
> 1. Once I change CMS0 to CMS1 and perform the calibration, do the calibration settings populate to all CMS1, (the original CMS1 that was set as 4k in and SDR2020 out)
> 2. More importantly, When I change it back to CMS0 is the REC709 calibration that I had done on CMS0 still there or do I need to recalibrate it under REC709
> 3. Unfortunately as Jim mentioned , it seems that although the JVC will not revert to Gamma D, it does engage the filter that cuts brightness.


1) As long as you do not check Reset your new CMS1 calibration will only be updated. If Reset is checked everything formerly in CMS1 will be wiped out and you start at square one.
2) Your former CMS0 Rec. 709 calibration will remain the same.
3) I setup my RS600 so the color filter is always used no matter the input signal. I value better color over higher brightness. The Ultra High Pressure mercury lamps used by most consumer projector manufacturers do so because they are more energy efficient than xenon lamps used 
in cinema projectors. Their drawback is that they emit loads of light in the yellow wavelengths. Unless this is sharply curtailed reds will have a tendency to look a bit on the orange side and greens look more lime like. In projector marketing lumens count. The more a 
manufacturer allows yellow to influence reds and greens the more lumens you will have. Calibration improves color and contrast but you pay for it in lumens. The JVC color filter has the same effect, better color but lower lumens.


----------



## D_B_0673

tibia said:


> 1) As long as you do not check Reset your new CMS1 calibration will only be updated. If Reset is checked everything formerly in CMS1 will be wiped out and you start at square one.
> 2) Your former CMS0 Rec. 709 calibration will remain the same.
> 3) I setup my RS600 so the color filter is always used no matter the input signal. I value better color over higher brightness. The Ultra High Pressure mercury lamps used by most consumer projector manufacturers do so because they are more energy efficient than xenon lamps used
> in cinema projectors. Their drawback is that they emit loads of light in the yellow wavelengths. Unless this is sharply curtailed reds will have a tendency to look a bit on the orange side and greens look more lime like. In projector marketing lumens count. The more a
> manufacturer allows yellow to influence reds and greens the more lumens you will have. Calibration improves color and contrast but you pay for it in lumens. The JVC color filter has the same effect, better color but lower lumens.


I would want the original CMS1 to have the calibration since that will be the only CMS1 after I change the other back to CMS0, wouldn't that be correct?
thanks , that helps me understand the pro's and con's of the filter a lot better


----------



## tibia

D_B_0673 said:


> I would want the original CMS1 to have the calibration since that will be the only CMS1 after I change the other back to CMS0, wouldn't that be correct?
> thanks , that helps me understand the pro's and con's of the filter a lot better


Yes. and you are welcome.


----------



## gigimonagas

Last week I pulled the trigger on the Radiance Pro 4446 to go along my JVC RS4500. Very exited to finally install my first ever video processor.

Setup tips are more than welcome.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

gigimonagas said:


> Last week I pulled the trigger on the Radiance Pro 4446 to go along my JVC RS4500. Very exited to finally install my first ever video processor.
> 
> 
> 
> Setup tips are more than welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Welcome to the club, from now on you won’t be able to watch it without Lumagen ))


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

D_B_0673 said:


> I would want the original CMS1 to have the calibration since that will be the only CMS1 after I change the other back to CMS0, wouldn't that be correct?
> thanks , that helps me understand the pro's and con's of the filter a lot better




Please like the responses from other forum members, if you find them helpful, as people spend their own time to explain things, I know it’s a little ask but believe me we will appreciate your like and will be willing to respond more often to the problems you are having and try to help others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blindrezo

Hi all,

I recently purchased a Radiance Pro 4440 and was looking for a little help with regards to 480i sources. I'm normally not the forum type, but I've tried all options on the Radiance Pro, without success. Google searches for issues with the Radiance Pro always lead me here, so I hope you guys don't mind me asking for some advice. 

As I've mentioned before, I've tried every combination of options on the Radiance Pro, and all 480i sources exhibit the same artifacts. I've attached example shots taken with my phone.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## jrp

blindrezo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I recently purchased a Radiance Pro 4440 and was looking for a little help with regards to 480i sources. I'm normally not the forum type, but I've tried all options on the Radiance Pro, without success. Google searches for issues with the Radiance Pro always lead me here, so I hope you guys don't mind me asking for some advice.
> 
> As I've mentioned before, I've tried every combination of options on the Radiance Pro, and all 480i sources exhibit the same artifacts. I've attached example shots taken with my phone.


We just today posted a new release (020118) with significant improvements for deinterlacing. All the material we looked at here looks significantly better, including film source sent as interlaced, including "bad edits." We think there will be more improvements in the future, but believe you will see significant improvement after loading this new release. I think Patrick has done a great job on this new release.

Give 020118 a try and if you still have issues, you can contact us at support @ lumagen.com with source examples for us to look at in the lab. We need examples of material that we can easily buy here or links to the the streaming file to download.

Everyone: This is a huge FPGA change, so if you do find any issues let us know.


----------



## D_B_0673

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Please like the responses from other forum members, if you find them helpful, as people spend their own time to explain things, I know it’s a little ask but believe me we will appreciate your like and will be willing to respond more often to the problems you are having and try to help others.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


done


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> We just today posted a new release (020118) with significant improvements for deinterlacing. All the material we looked at here looks significantly better, including film source sent as interlaced, including "bad edits." We think there will be more improvements in the future, but believe you will see significant improvement after loading this new release. I think Patrick has done a great job on this new release.
> 
> Give 020118 a try and if you still have issues, you can contact us at support @ lumagen.com with source examples for us to look at in the lab. We need examples of material that we can easily buy here or links to the the streaming file to download.
> 
> Everyone: This is a huge FPGA change, so if you do find any issues let us know.


Welcome back!

Mike


----------



## blindrezo

jrp said:


> Give 020118 a try and if you still have issues, you can contact us at support @ lumagen.com with source examples for us to look at in the lab. We need examples of material that we can easily buy here or links to the the streaming file to download.


Thanks for the info. Will give this a try tomorrow, after work!


----------



## jrp

D_B_0673 said:


> 1. When you say "you must still target Rec2020 primaries in the color software", does that mean in the calibration software?
> 2. Glad you confirmed that the JVC 6xx is moving the filter in place even with SDR2020 output, my SDR2020 was dimmer than the same scenes in REC709 ( used mad max disks to look) I could not tell if the filter was in place or not
> 3. So I should change my output of CMS1 to Rec709 after i do a SDR2020 calibration on CMS1... is that correct?
> thanks as always
> 4. Is there a Strip Meta data that would allow the output to be SDR2020 and prevent the filter from engaging? Perhaps in the disk player or in Lumagen.


1. Yes, the color software is targeted at Rec 2020 primaries.

3. No. Leave the CMS1 output Colorspace the same as calibrated or you will undo your calibration. Choose the Colorspace you want before calibration, and then calibrate - and watch - with that setting.

4. Stripping the "Rec 2020" from the Metadata is the same as Colorspace = "SDR Rec 709" which itself strips the Rec 2020 flag out of the Metadata. Assuming I understand what you are trying to achieve it would be done by setting the output Colorspace = SDR709, and then choosing a wide-Gamut-Mode in the projector (be careful that mode is reasonably linear).

Let the source player output HDR 2020 as usual. I recommend against using any "Auto" HDR Tone Mapping in the player (such as the Oppo 203) as it may well work against the HDR Mapping in the Pro.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> Welcome back!
> 
> Mike


Thanks. 

Good to be feeling good again.


----------



## jrp

CALIBRATION TIP:

I was talking to Craig Rounds (a great calibrator and Lumagen expert out of Chicago) this weekend and he pointed out something he figured out from his calibration efforts. He found that sometimes if he calibrated with a 4k source active he would get inconsistent measurement results. Eventually he tested calibration by selecting an unconnected source (a non active source would act the same). When he did this he never got inconsistent measurement results. 

We came to the conclusion that the Pro was taking longer to put up the pattern with an active source and Lightspace was taking the reading too soon. No surprise it took longer to write with an active source as there is a lot going on. It is unknown if this would apply to Calman or Chromapure. However, the below recommendation would be a good idea for any calibration. Craig could not find a setting in Lightspace to further delay the start of the reading (if my memory is correct), but based on Craig's testing Lumagen can recommend the following:

*When calibrating select a non-active source input (turn it off or unplug the HDMI cable). This will insure the patterns are written to the screen as fast as possible.*

Even if you can delay the start of the reading, not having the extra work for the microprocessor insures a (slightly) faster calibration. Note: This may not be needed in most cases but it will not hurt to do this.

[EDIT] Note that the time it takes from the pattern command to being on the screen is increased by the TV/Projectors internal processing time. It might make sense to have the TV/projector in its "Game Mode" if one is available. Then you would also watch leaving the TV/projector in Game Mode. Since Game Mode has lower latency I have recommended using the TV/projector Game Mode for years, but you need to make sure there is no image degradation in Game as some TVs and projectors have had.


----------



## alex_t

jrp said:


> CALIBRATION TIP:
> 
> I was talking to Craig Rounds (a great calibrator and Lumagen expert out of Chicago) this weekend and he pointed out something he figured out from his calibration efforts. He found that sometimes if he calibrated with a 4k source active he would get inconsistent measurement results. Eventually he tested calibration by selecting an unconnected source (a non active source would act the same). When he did this he never got inconsistent measurement results.
> 
> We came to the conclusion that the Pro was taking longer to put up the pattern with an active source and Lightspace was taking the reading too soon. No surprise it took longer to write with an active source as there is a lot going on. It is unknown if this would apply to Calman or Chromapure. However, the below recommendation would be a good idea for any calibration. Craig could not find a setting in Lightspace to further delay the start of the reading (if my memory is correct), but based on Craig's testing Lumagen can recommend the following:
> 
> *When calibrating select a non-active source input (turn it off or unplug the HDMI cable). This will insure the patterns are written to the screen as fast as possible.*
> 
> Even if you can delay the start of the reading, not having the extra work for the microprocessor insures a (slightly) faster calibration. Note: This may not be needed in most cases but it will not hurt to do this.
> 
> [EDIT] Note that the time it takes from the pattern command to being on the screen is increased by the TV/Projectors internal processing time. It might make sense to have the TV/projector in its "Game Mode" if one is available. Then you would also watch leaving the TV/projector in Game Mode. Since Game Mode has lower latency I have recommended using the TV/projector Game Mode for years, but you need to make sure there is no image degradation in Game as some TVs and projectors have had.


Hello Jim,

This confirms what I have experienced too (but not reported yet because I wanted to do more test to be sure). As you know I have reported issues with no source active and test pattern, 121217 fixed it. But even in this configuration, I recommand to add an extra delay in Lightspace CMS (extra delay=time for delaying probe measurement in between 2 displayed patches). I have reported this to Light Illusion as well and they told me that they are thinking to add a feature to help finding the best optimized extra delay (I encourage lightspace cms user to ask for this feature).

With no source active, the output video condition matches with OTHER but, in the case there is no active source, sometimes OTHER does not trig the signal output expected (i.e. the last output video condition when the source was active is applied instead). Patrick told me that it was a strategy to avoid switching output signal but form my experience (I use my PRO as external TP for my calibration services) it would be better that, in the case no source is active, OTHER works the same way as for other output video condition. This would allows setting exactly the output signal you want to perform the calibration.

(by the way, maybe it is already the case, I will check with last firmware)

The workaround method with no source active is to use TP with user mode but the problem is as soon as a TP is no more displayed, there is a switch for output resolution based on the output video condition. This switch is very annoying (but normal) when you do a manual calibration (as said above, I use my PRO for my calibration service as external TP generator)

Thanks

Alexandre


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> CALIBRATION TIP:
> 
> 
> 
> I was talking to Craig Rounds (a great calibrator and Lumagen expert out of Chicago) this weekend and he pointed out something he figured out from his calibration efforts. He found that sometimes if he calibrated with a 4k source active he would get inconsistent measurement results. Eventually he tested calibration by selecting an unconnected source (a non active source would act the same). When he did this he never got inconsistent measurement results.
> 
> 
> 
> We came to the conclusion that the Pro was taking longer to put up the pattern with an active source and Lightspace was taking the reading too soon. No surprise it took longer to write with an active source as there is a lot going on. It is unknown if this would apply to Calman or Chromapure. However, the below recommendation would be a good idea for any calibration. Craig could not find a setting in Lightspace to further delay the start of the reading (if my memory is correct), but based on Craig's testing Lumagen can recommend the following:
> 
> 
> 
> *When calibrating select a non-active source input (turn it off or unplug the HDMI cable). This will insure the patterns are written to the screen as fast as possible.*
> 
> 
> 
> Even if you can delay the start of the reading, not having the extra work for the microprocessor insures a (slightly) faster calibration. Note: This may not be needed in most cases but it will not hurt to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> [EDIT] Note that the time it takes from the pattern command to being on the screen is increased by the TV/Projectors internal processing time. It might make sense to have the TV/projector in its "Game Mode" if one is available. Then you would also watch leaving the TV/projector in Game Mode. Since Game Mode has lower latency I have recommended using the TV/projector Game Mode for years, but you need to make sure there is no image degradation in Game as some TVs and projectors have had.




I have noticed that too especially when you’d switch non hdr content and hdr content and if you start adjusting blacks level, for some reason it is different, for hdr it can be raised up a bit and I have to adjust by two contrast patterns, so I ended up with no source feeding and doing a full calibration as you described above. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

alex_t said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> This confirms what I have experienced too (but not reported yet because I wanted to do more test to be sure). As you know I have reported issues with no source active and test pattern, 121217 fixed it. But even in this configuration, I recommand to add an extra delay in Lightspace CMS (extra delay=time for delaying probe measurement in between 2 displayed patches). I have reported this to Light Illusion as well and they told me that they are thinking to add a feature to help finding the best optimized extra delay (I encourage lightspace cms user to ask for this feature).
> 
> With no source active, the output video condition matches with OTHER but, in the case there is no active source, sometimes OTHER does not trig the signal output expected (i.e. the last output video condition when the source was active is applied instead). Patrick told me that it was a strategy to avoid switching output signal but form my experience (I use my PRO as external TP for my calibration services) it would be better that, in the case no source is active, OTHER works the same way as for other output video condition. This would allows setting exactly the output signal you want to perform the calibration.
> 
> (by the way, maybe it is already the case, I will check with last firmware)
> 
> The workaround method with no source active is to use TP with user mode but the problem is as soon as a TP is no more displayed, there is a switch for output resolution based on the output video condition. This switch is very annoying (but normal) when you do a manual calibration (as said above, I use my PRO for my calibration service as external TP generator)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alexandre


There is that setting you can find it here:


----------



## alex_t

Hello,

Yes this is one I'm speaking about. I always use it even with no active source in Radiance.



SoulOfUniverse said:


> There is that setting you can find it here:


----------



## D_B_0673

jrp said:


> 1. Yes, the color software is targeted at Rec 2020 primaries.
> 
> 3. No. Leave the CMS1 output Colorspace the same as calibrated or you will undo your calibration. Choose the Colorspace you want before calibration, and then calibrate - and watch - with that setting.
> 
> 4. Stripping the "Rec 2020" from the Metadata is the same as Colorspace = "SDR Rec 709" which itself strips the Rec 2020 flag out of the Metadata. Assuming I understand what you are trying to achieve it would be done by setting the output Colorspace = SDR709, and then choosing a wide-Gamut-Mode in the projector (be careful that mode is reasonably linear).
> 
> Let the source player output HDR 2020 as usual. I recommend against using any "Auto" HDR Tone Mapping in the player (such as the Oppo 203) as it may well work against the HDR Mapping in the Pro.


thanks, 
I did a calibration SDR2020 on CMS1, following your steps, but my light output as measured from the lens with a meter was half as bright as the same scene in BluRay. It might be as you said the JVC, still seeing the 2020 flag is doing something odd. That is why I tried changing CMS1 output after calibrating it to SDR2020 to REC 709. It still was the same lower light as measured. Now even though the meter said half as much brightness, it did not look like half, but was noticibly dimmer. 
I could be doing something wrong, but can't figure out what yet. I feel like I am leaving a lot of the functionality of the Lumagen on the table as I can't as yet get the 2020 to work as others describe. On the plus side REC709 looks superb
dan


----------



## SJHT

SoulOfUniverse said:


> There is that setting you can find it here:


Screen shots like this would be perfect for your documentation. Lightspace has so many options. Just show me a picture of screen settings used in the process!  Thanks. SJ


----------



## Rob Dingen

Hi,

I have a problem with judder, it only happens with Billy Lyn 4K 60p.
The source is a Oppo 203 projector Sony VW5000 and processor 4242 with 18Ghz card's.
If I connect the Oppo direct I don't have the judder.
Can I do something about that, and did someone else noticed this?

Rob


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Rob Dingen said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a problem with judder, it only happens with Billy Lyn 4K 60p.
> The source is a Oppo 203 projector Sony VW5000 and processor 4242 with 18Ghz card's.
> If I connect the Oppo direct I don't have the judder.
> Can I do something about that, and did someone else noticed this?
> 
> Rob


I have the Oppo 205, Sony VW5000 and Radiance Pro with 18 Ghz cards, and I watched this 4k disc a few weeks ago and had no issues with the Oppo to the Radiance Pro to the VW5000. Using 50' Monoprice 18Ghz certified HDMI cable to projector. Ken Whitcomb set this all up for me.


----------



## blindrezo

jrp said:


> Give 020118 a try and if you still have issues, you can contact us at support @ lumagen.com with source examples for us to look at in the lab. We need examples of material that we can easily buy here or links to the the streaming file to download.


Hi again,

I just wanted to give you an update regarding the latest firmware and the deinterlacing situation.

The artifacting that I experienced before is gone, but there still appear to be issues with the deinterlacing. Leaving it on "auto" looks great during scenes with little or no movement, but during pans, it exhibits very noticeable interlacing/combing effects. This occurs regardless of source (all DVDs/LDs). Any 480i signal I send to the Radiance Pro exhibits this. Navigating my DVD player menu (480i HDMI output) BEFORE playback of a disc exhibits this. Setting it to "off", the interlacing/combing effects disappear, but then the image looks lightly aliased, with a slight shimmer. The same occurs with my LaserDisc player -> ADV7842 Evaluation Board outputting 480i over HDMI and any disc.

If you prefer I send an email about this, even though this occurs with seemingly any 480i signal, let me know and I'll send one off. 

- EDIT -

Whoops, I forgot to mention that switching between "film", "video" and "neutral" has no noticeable difference on the deinterlacing, at least in my case.


----------



## alex_t

Hello.

My feedback is quite the same as yours for 576i (star wars 3, DVD pal). I have sent an email to Lumagen.

Alexandre



blindrezo said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I just wanted to give you an update regarding the latest firmware and the deinterlacing situation.
> 
> The artifacting that I experienced before is gone, but there still appear to be issues with the deinterlacing. Leaving it on "auto" looks great during scenes with little or no movement, but during pans, it exhibits very noticeable interlacing/combing effects. This occurs regardless of source (all DVDs/LDs). Any 480i signal I send to the Radiance Pro exhibits this. Navigating my DVD player menu (480i HDMI output) BEFORE playback of a disc exhibits this. Setting it to "off", the interlacing/combing effects disappear, but then the image looks lightly aliased, with a slight shimmer. The same occurs with my LaserDisc player -> ADV7842 Evaluation Board outputting 480i over HDMI and any disc.
> 
> If you prefer I send an email about this, even though this occurs with seemingly any 480i signal, let me know and I'll send one off.
> 
> - EDIT -
> 
> Whoops, I forgot to mention that switching between "film", "video" and "neutral" has no noticeable difference on the deinterlacing, at least in my case.


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> The easiest way to do this.................
> ....... in the MENU>SAVE> section of the scaler you have the option to load the current configuration even if you overwrite the current one by accident



Hi, i have another question for Gordon:
after generating the Lut with LightSpace you need to do the video scale pass black like with eecolor or on the Lumagen Radiance Pro you do not need.


----------



## thrang

In the grand scheme of things I would have much preferred a focus on hdmi handshaking reliability and switching speed, as well as frame based hdr intensity mapping over de-interlacing if there is a prioritization....I suspect the vast majority of content viewed is progressive based in our theaters - and yes, while I watch interlaced sports and news, the provider’s compression artifacts often supersedes most other issues anyway


My 2 cents


----------



## loggeo

Let's not forget Hybrid Log Gamma support.


----------



## Mark_H

thrang said:


> In the grand scheme of things I would have much preferred a focus on hdmi handshaking reliability and switching speed, as well as frame based hdr intensity mapping over de-interlacing if there is a prioritization....I suspect the vast majority of content viewed is progressive based in our theaters - and yes, while I watch interlaced sports and news, the provider’s compression artifacts often supersedes most other issues anyway
> 
> 
> My 2 cents


Plenty of us want deinterlacing improved, since day 1, long before HDR etc arrived, so it's good to finally see it getting some much needed attention.


----------



## thrang

Mark_H said:


> Plenty of us want deinterlacing improved, since day 1, long before HDR etc arrived, so it's good to finally see it getting some much needed attention.


I don’t disagree it needed help. But core system performance is really important for anyone’s viewing habits, and, from both a marketing and functionality perspective, improvements in HDR rendering, PiP, fast and reliable switching, etc carry more weight in 2018 imo.

I also think that most people that buy a Radiance are also probably the same people who migrated to blu ray and now uhd sooner than the general population. Other than cable/satellite interlaced broadcast, I’m guessing the largest percentage of what’s being watched is progressive. Even many regional sports channels are 720p in the US. Streaming boxes usually output a progressive signal regardless of content...so I don’t know, it just feels like a lower priority over many other things given the (presumed) overwhelming percentage of progressive viewing likely in our theaters.

Ironically, I’ve been updating older DVD titles to Blu Ray recently for several titles...many others I looked at and said I’m never watching this again, so tossed them. Laserdiscs and vhs were put in the garbage many years ago. There’s a time to retire...


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 020118*

Already noted by jrp, but FYI in case others missed it...

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 020118*
Deinterlacing much improved (new FPGA code). 
Deinterlacer has a bias setting under *Input: In Configs: RES: RES-X: Control: Deinterlace: Mode:* which can be set to Neutral, Film or Video. 
Fix made for menu breakup occurring only under certain situations. 
Bugfix for resetting color gamut to default causing brightened picture. 
Fix for some cases of genlock when set to "normal" and "fast" which gave unstable video. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mark_H

thrang said:


> I don’t disagree it needed help. But core system performance is really important for anyone’s viewing habits...


Quite. I have a Pro sitting under my TV whose primary feed, many hours a week, is a 1080i signal from my SKY satellite dish...

I'm guessing, but might be wrong, Lumagen are often working on things in parallel (eg planning through to implementation), and with Jim ill recently and unable to contribute to the HDR work, this was an opportunity to get this update out.


----------



## thrang

And to be clear, I think Lumagen is by far the most responsive and attentive a/v company on AVS that I’m aware of. Jim and Patrick are outstanding spending the time to help analyze and troubleshoot, at all hours, 7 days a week.

It’s just that I get a bit gun shy with new firmware as it often introduces sync issues that introduce a lot more experimenting than I want at this stage, two years or so into development.


----------



## mskreis

loggeo said:


> Let's not forget Hybrid Log Gamma support.




Absolutely agree. I’ve not been able to view any 4K material from Directv due to this limitation. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## LJG

mskreis said:


> Absolutely agree. I’ve not been able to view any 4K material from Directv due to this limitation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/Q
> 
> I believe Jim pushed this up to top of list


----------



## blindrezo

alex_t said:


> Hello.
> 
> My feedback is quite the same as yours for 576i (star wars 3, DVD pal). I have sent an email to Lumagen.
> 
> Alexandre


Just FYI, I decided to send an email as well, just in case.


----------



## alex_t

blindrezo said:


> Just FYI, I decided to send an email as well, just in case.


Hello,

As usual Lumagen has worked very quickly on the issue and a new version is available, I will test it in the evening (France time).

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates



> Beta 020518- Fix for a problem with new deinterlacer combing when it shouldn't have. Fix for the reinterlacer feature which was broken in previous update. Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## blindrezo

alex_t said:


> As usual Lumagen has worked very quickly on the issue and a new version is available, I will test it in the evening (France time).


Yeah, Patrick was very quick to reply to me about the update. Very cool indeed. I'll be trying it out when I get home from work today.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 020518*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 020518*
Fix for a problem with new deinterlacer combing when it shouldn't have. 
Fix for the reinterlacer feature which was broken in previous update. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

My Dish 1080i source looks great. Wow. SJ


----------



## thrang

SJHT said:


> My Dish 1080i source looks great. Wow. SJ


Yes when I can get a picture interlaced content shows a nice improvement 

But the release is so unstable for me re: hdmi sync I have to roll back...frustrating...

Patrick indicated he will be looking at making improvements in this regard, hopefully soon


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 020618*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 020618*
Fix for timing issue in fpga of 020518 update could cause some pixels to flicker noticeably. 
Timing issue doesn't happen in all systems. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## bobof

Something I can't quite get my head round at the moment...
Say you have a display which has a wider than REC709 gamut in an SDR REC709 input mode.
How do you configure a Pro to correctly use as much of the gamut as possible when playing REC2020 content?

I have Lightspace and I can of course create a 3DLUT targeting REC2020 primaries, but I'm struggling to get my head around how the Pro would know that the 3DLUT was targeting those primaries if you set the output colorspace to SDR709. Is there another option you need to set which defines the targets for the 3DLUT you are uploading?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

bobof said:


> Something I can't quite get my head round at the moment...
> 
> Say you have a display which has a wider than REC709 gamut in an SDR REC709 input mode.
> 
> How do you configure a Pro to correctly use as much of the gamut as possible when playing REC2020 content?
> 
> 
> 
> I have Lightspace and I can of course create a 3DLUT targeting REC2020 primaries, but I'm struggling to get my head around how the Pro would know that the 3DLUT was targeting those primaries if you set the output colorspace to SDR709. Is there another option you need to set which defines the targets for the 3DLUT you are uploading?




It’s the lut you upload into Lumagen has all this information about primaries as it is served within rec2020 container. Outputting sdr709 in Lumagen doesn’t force and output display to apply its colour gamut forced to sdr2020, for instance in Vpl760es if you output sdr2020 from Lumagen , pj will be forced to output bt2020 color gamut, now if you do a test for that gamut it has bad RGB Separarion. However this projector has other colour spaces like colour space 2, colour space 3 which covers the same as bt2020 the rec2020 space, but has better RGB separation. Therefore when outputting Lumagen sdr709 it gives ability to a display set preferred colour space, however because the Lut uploaded been profiled of targeted rec2020 it will do a correct tone mapping conversion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It’s the lut you upload into Lumagen has all this information about primaries as it is served within rec2020 container. Outputting sdr709 in Lumagen doesn’t force and output display to apply its colour gamut forced to sdr2020, for instance in Vpl760es if you output sdr2020 from Lumagen , pj will be forced to output bt2020 color gamut, now if you do a test for that gamut it has bad RGB Separarion. However this projector has other colour spaces like colour space 2, colour space 3 which covers the same as bt2020 the rec2020 space, but has better RGB separation. Therefore when outputting Lumagen sdr709 it gives ability to a display set preferred colour space, however because the Lut uploaded been profiled of targeted rec2020 it will do a correct tone mapping conversion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, I've got it now. Because the Lumagen chooses the CMS0/1 based on the input colourspace this effectively defines the primaries for the LUT.
I want to avoid the clatter and noise of the JVC filter going in and out if possible, and get the extra light for no filter. Or at least try it out and see what it looks like.


----------



## Mark_H

The LUT doesn't contain any information on which primaries were used, it's simply a mathmatical transform created by the calibration software that maps between the input/output primaries chosen/measured during calibration. Only if you use the same input (source) and output (display) modes will the LUT correctly convert the colours...


----------



## D_B_0673

bobof said:


> Thanks, I've got it now. Because the Lumagen chooses the CMS0/1 based on the input colourspace this effectively defines the primaries for the LUT.
> I want to avoid the clatter and noise of the JVC filter going in and out if possible, and get the extra light for no filter. Or at least try it out and see what it looks like.


It did not work for me. I calibrated CMS1 to SDR202 and tried setting output both to SDR 2020 and then REC709. I kept my meter facing the lens (like when I did calibration) and put in the Bluray version of Mad max and the 4k version. As I switched inputs with the picture paused on the same spot, my light was still noticeably dimmer with the 4k. 
Still possible that I did something wrong, but I cannot get the results others have with my JVC 640


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

D_B_0673 said:


> It did not work for me. I calibrated CMS1 to SDR202 and tried setting output both to SDR 2020 and then REC709. I kept my meter facing the lens (like when I did calibration) and put in the Bluray version of Mad max and the 4k version. As I switched inputs with the picture paused on the same spot, my light was still noticeably dimmer with the 4k.
> Still possible that I did something wrong, but I cannot get the results others have with my JVC 640




What colour space you select in your jvc? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## procine

Is there a guide how to calibrate a JVC (later model) with Lightillusion for HDR. I cant find it but believe I read about it erlier. Help needed


----------



## Gordon Fraser

D_B_0673 said:


> It did not work for me. I calibrated CMS1 to SDR202 and tried setting output both to SDR 2020 and then REC709. I kept my meter facing the lens (like when I did calibration) and put in the Bluray version of Mad max and the 4k version. As I switched inputs with the picture paused on the same spot, my light was still noticeably dimmer with the 4k.
> Still possible that I did something wrong, but I cannot get the results others have with my JVC 640


When you say "my light was dimmer" what do you mean? Was 100percent luminance patch dimmer or was it that the image looked dimmer with the 4K disc? If the latter then that is entirely possible. They are not the same transfer. Also, what have you set the Intensity Mapping Parameters to? What peak white did you actually measure when you created the profile for the LUT?


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> When you say "my light was dimmer" what do you mean? Was 100percent luminance patch dimmer or was it that the image looked dimmer with the 4K disc? If the latter then that is entirely possible. They are not the same transfer. Also, what have you set the Intensity Mapping Parameters to? What peak white did you actually measure when you created the profile for the LUT?


Raw data showed 150 on the BluRay and about 60 on the 4k disk using the ChromaPure software module.
the image only looked slightly dimmer, certainly not as much as the measurements suggested. It was the only way I had of measuring.
Unfortunately I do not understand what I am supposed to do with the IM parameters.
I used 100% peak white on the ChromaPure for both calibrations if that is what you are asking.
thanks


----------



## D_B_0673

SoulOfUniverse said:


> What colour space you select in your jvc?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Standard, if that is what you are asking, also I had it set for 422Rec 709
When the JVC saw SDR 2020 it said BT2020 on the info screen
When it saw REC 709 it showed 709 on the info screen


----------



## Gordon Fraser

D_B_0673 said:


> Raw data showed 150 on the BluRay and about 60 on the 4k disk using the ChromaPure software module.
> the image only looked slightly dimmer, certainly not as much as the measurements suggested. It was the only way I had of measuring.
> Unfortunately I do not understand what I am supposed to do with the IM parameters.
> I used 100% peak white on the ChromaPure for both calibrations if that is what you are asking.
> thanks


This seems very strange. Do the following to test.

Set CMS for REC709 in and REC2020/HDR to CMS6 and CMS7 respectively.
Set both CMS to COLOURSPACE SDR/REC709 in Lumagen.
Make sure both CMS banks have their 21 point rgb gamma/greyscale and colourcube settings set to defaults.
Now put on a BD disc and, with CMS6 active, measure 100 percent peak white.
Then, put on a UHD disc and with CMS7 active measure 100 percent peak white. 
See if they are the same. There should be no reason i can think of that they would not be. I will check myself later today as well.
You need to make sure the JVS is using the exact same preset and settings for each. It should as there is no reason it should be changing it's preset if it is always getting the same SDR/REC709 data


----------



## jabz

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Sj,
> 
> Unfortunately I was very busy and was away off the UK for a whole month. Very soon I will be recalibrating the unit again and will either record video or create a document on how to, and for sure will share with the community.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Awesome, I look forward to this. I got Lumagen pro, with Lightspace and embarrassed to say I haven't attempted a 3D LUT. Now with Intensity mapping via the Pro, Im confused what to calibrate.


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> This seems very strange. Do the following to test.
> 
> Set CMS for REC709 in and REC2020/HDR to CMS6 and CMS7 respectively.
> Set both CMS to COLOURSPACE SDR/REC709 in Lumagen.
> Make sure both CMS banks have their 21 point rgb gamma/greyscale and colourcube settings set to defaults.
> Now put on a BD disc and, with CMS6 active, measure 100 percent peak white.
> Then, put on a UHD disc and with CMS7 active measure 100 percent peak white.
> See if they are the same. There should be no reason i can think of that they would not be. I will check myself later today as well.
> You need to make sure the JVS is using the exact same preset and settings for each. It should as there is no reason it should be changing it's preset if it is always getting the same SDR/REC709 data


Thanks Gordon,
I am sure I am confusing some of the terms, as I barely understand much of this.
I did a SDR2020 and Rec709 calibration a couple of weeks ago and have the reports. 
I believe what you are asking for is in the attached .jpgs and shows the peak white very close.
What I was measuring was a static image from of the same scene on a bluRay and 4K of Mad Max, because after calibration, the BluRay looked brighter, better than the 4K. 
I had not done anything with IM as I don't understand it, so that might be part of the problem.
You help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

D_B_0673 said:


> Thanks Gordon,
> I am sure I am confusing some of the terms, as I barely understand much of this.
> I did a SDR2020 and Rec709 calibration a couple of weeks ago and have the reports.
> I believe what you are asking for is in the attached .jpgs and shows the peak white very close.
> What I was measuring was a static image from of the same scene on a bluRay and 4K of Mad Max, because after calibration, the BluRay looked brighter, better than the 4K.
> I had not done anything with IM as I don't understand it, so that might be part of the problem.
> You help is greatly appreciated.


The reason they look different is because they are mastered differently and because you need to use Intensity Mapping in order to get the best balance of SDR range to HDR range from the UHD HDR disc. With the REC2020 calibration you did active put on the disc and then navigate to MENU>OUT>CMS>and the active CMS you are using. Then go down to HDR and turn intensity mapping ON and put a figure of 400 in to the data box. Set LUT to AUTO. 

Now Menu>In>Options>HDR setup>MinOffset>and set it to AUTO on ALL inputs and memories.

come out of that and go do MENU>SAVE>SAVE>SAVE

Then play the film and press left cursor and now adjust SHAPE and you will see that the SDR part of the image probably gets brighter or darker. Set it how you think it looks correct and then go to Tran and adjsut it up and down and you should see a difference in the detail and contrast in the higher luminance parts of the image. The two interact. So play with them to see what is happening. The Lumagen defaults seem to be a good starting point.

The figure of 400 NITS i had you put in is basically telling the Pro's Intensity Mapping how much dynamic capability your display has. If you have a super bright PJ you can stick that up higher...With a 100 NIT peak white PJ i'd look at potentially going to 800NIT and working back. With a PJ that has peak white of around 30-50 NIT i'd stick around 350-500...the danger when you go down to 350 is that you may start to see unpleasant tonal transitions dependent on the display and the source.

remember to SAVE once you have made changes you like


----------



## Ian_Currie

I'm unable to connect to my Lumagen via my laptop (via USB) which is strange because I've done it successfully before (to both backup config file and perform a FW update).

I know I had to find the proper com port last time, but I've tried them all @ baud rate 230k with no success. The Lumagen IS on. 

I'm wondering if I'm simply forgetting a step... if anyone has any tips, I would be grateful...


----------



## dlinsley

Ian_Currie said:


> I know I had to find the proper com port last time, but I've tried them all @ baud rate 230k with no success. The Lumagen IS on.


If you go into Device Manager (on Windows 10, maybe 8 and up, press Win+X and then M) you can see what com port the adapter is using. I've found that if I select the wrong port in the Lumagen software I have to exit and launch it again (then select the right port + baud and then update). It wont let you correct it and try update again.


----------



## dlinsley

Ian_Currie said:


> I know I had to find the proper com port last time, but I've tried them all @ baud rate 230k with no success. The Lumagen IS on.


If you go into Device Manager (on Windows 10, maybe 8 and up, press Win+X and then M) you can see what com port the adapter is using. I've found that if I select the wrong port in the Lumagen software I have to exit and launch it again (then select the right port + baud and then update). It wont let you correct it and try update again.


----------



## Ian_Currie

dlinsley said:


> If you go into Device Manager (on Windows 10, maybe 8 and up, press Win+X and then M) you can see what com port the adapter is using. I've found that if I select the wrong port in the Lumagen software I have to exit and launch it again (then select the right port + baud and then update). It wont let you correct it and try update again.


Thank you! I'm all set now.


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> The reason they look different is because they are mastered differently and because you need to use Intensity Mapping in order to get the best balance of SDR range to HDR range from the UHD HDR disc. With the REC2020 calibration you did active put on the disc and then navigate to MENU>OUT>CMS>and the active CMS you are using. Then go down to HDR and turn intensity mapping ON and put a figure of 400 in to the data box. Set LUT to AUTO.
> 
> Now Menu>In>Options>HDR setup>MinOffset>and set it to AUTO on ALL inputs and memories.
> 
> come out of that and go do MENU>SAVE>SAVE>SAVE
> 
> Then play the film and press left cursor and now adjust SHAPE and you will see that the SDR part of the image probably gets brighter or darker. Set it how you think it looks correct and then go to Tran and adjsut it up and down and you should see a difference in the detail and contrast in the higher luminance parts of the image. The two interact. So play with them to see what is happening. The Lumagen defaults seem to be a good starting point.
> 
> The figure of 400 NITS i had you put in is basically telling the Pro's Intensity Mapping how much dynamic capability your display has. If you have a super bright PJ you can stick that up higher...With a 100 NIT peak white PJ i'd look at potentially going to 800NIT and working back. With a PJ that has peak white of around 30-50 NIT i'd stick around 350-500...the danger when you go down to 350 is that you may start to see unpleasant tonal transitions dependent on the display and the source.
> 
> remember to SAVE once you have made changes you like


thanks, I am going to have to read this 3 or 4 times to take it in, but I will try.
Am I correct in assuming that all this is after I do the SDR2020 calibration on CMS 1?


----------



## jlanzy

Getting 4242, have Denon x8500, would like keep avr as switch and pass video to Lumagen to projector. Biggest reason is so I can see the volume slider for any source during play, has there been any problems with passing the video 4k/2k through any of the higher end Denons to a Lumagen? Denon has a video processor that I have set to off.


----------



## Surfdrifter

While, it's nice to see FW updates to our units, but having to do 3-4 in a row, it's a PITA for me, because I have to unplug my laptop PC from the office to do the update.

I can only dream to see my child, perform an OTA update to my 4440 and who knows... Maybe it would be, over a WiFI module!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

D_B_0673 said:


> thanks, I am going to have to read this 3 or 4 times to take it in, but I will try.
> Am I correct in assuming that all this is after I do the SDR2020 calibration on CMS 1?


yes these are steps you take after you have done your SDR REC2020 calibration and put it in to CMS1.


----------



## D_B_0673

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes these are steps you take after you have done your SDR REC2020 calibration and put it in to CMS1.


thanks as always


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 021018*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 021018*
Few more improvements in new deinterlacer. 
Fixes for rs232 commands ZY530 and ZY520 and addition of ZQI52 HDR status query.
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## giomania

uderman said:


> It is a 8x7 matrix switch put into a lumagen radiance pro. You can input 8 devices and any of those 8devices can be distributed to 7 different outputs (7 zones) in any arrangement. Output zone 1/main has all of the lumagen radiance processing and the other 6 outputs (zone 2-7) has pass through output/no lumagen processing.
> 
> In addition to this, zone 1/main has 3 other hdmi outputs connected in parallel which makes it a total of 4 ports. These ports are processed however they are not independent, they show the same input selected.
> 
> A typical example,
> 
> Zone 1 - port 1- projector, port 2- audio only to av receiver, port 3- smaller lcd for osd, port 4- reserved for future.
> 
> (Below are unprocessed signals so your display does scaling)
> Zone 2- living room tv
> Zone 3- bedroom
> Zone 4- kitchen
> 
> And so on..


I am considering upgrading from a Radiance 2041, and really want to eliminate my multiple HDMI switches and splitters. The above post is discussing the capabilities for the Radiance Pro 4449, but I am wondering if there are any matrix switching capabilities for the 4442, 4444, and 4446? I am guessing based upon the brochure information below, that only the 4449 has this capability? If I am wrong, and they all have some of this capability, what would the specifics be for the 4442, 4444, and 4446?

Radiance Pro Models:
Radiance Pro 4240: Two inputs, four processed outputs, 1U case
Radiance Pro 4242: Four inputs, two processed outputs, 1U case
Radiance Pro 4440: Two inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
Radiance Pro 4442: Four inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
Radiance Pro 4444: Six inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
Radiance Pro 4446: Eight inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
Radiance Pro 4449: Eight inputs, four processed outputs, *six switched outputs*, 2U case 

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## uderman

giomania said:


> uderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a 8x7 matrix switch put into a lumagen radiance pro. You can input 8 devices and any of those 8devices can be distributed to 7 different outputs (7 zones) in any arrangement. Output zone 1/main has all of the lumagen radiance processing and the other 6 outputs (zone 2-7) has pass through output/no lumagen processing.
> 
> In addition to this, zone 1/main has 3 other hdmi outputs connected in parallel which makes it a total of 4 ports. These ports are processed however they are not independent, they show the same input selected.
> 
> A typical example,
> 
> Zone 1 - port 1- projector, port 2- audio only to av receiver, port 3- smaller lcd for osd, port 4- reserved for future.
> 
> (Below are unprocessed signals so your display does scaling)
> Zone 2- living room tv
> Zone 3- bedroom
> Zone 4- kitchen
> 
> And so on..
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering upgrading from a Radiance 2041, and really want to eliminate my multiple HDMI switches and splitters. The above post is discussing the capabilities for the Radiance Pro 4449, but I am wondering if there are any matrix switching capabilities for the 4442, 4444, and 4446? I am guessing based upon the brochure information below, that only the 4449 has this capability? If I am wrong, and they all have some of this capability, what would the specifics be for the 4442, 4444, and 4446?
> 
> Radiance Pro Models:
> Radiance Pro 4240: Two inputs, four processed outputs, 1U case
> Radiance Pro 4242: Four inputs, two processed outputs, 1U case
> Radiance Pro 4440: Two inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
> Radiance Pro 4442: Four inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
> Radiance Pro 4444: Six inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
> Radiance Pro 4446: Eight inputs, four processed outputs, 2U case
> Radiance Pro 4449: Eight inputs, four processed outputs, *six switched outputs*, 2U case
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
Click to expand...

Afaik 4449 model has been discontinued due poor demand. I was one of the first beta testers and I got my 4449 while it was in experimental/decision stage. Jim warned me before the purchase that 4449 model was unlikely to see production however I wanted one anyways. 

The matrix switches are functional but they will not ever get bug fixes or support. As long as I match the capabilities of my output devices with my input devices, they should work ok. 

Other 444x models do not offer matrix functionality. They have 2 or 4 parallel outputs. 

You can buy a 4K matrix switch and a basic pro model with 2 in / 2 out. Unfortunately you won?t be able to take advantage of the pip/pop functionality of the 444x models.


----------



## mikigio

Hello, I have a problem with the lumagen pro.
Using Calman the connection to the Video section of the lumagen is correct, see the CMS, Lut etc ...

Unfortunately, the connection to the pattern generator leaves the black screen and blocks the Lumagen, I have to exclude the connection from Calman and turn off the lumagen to go back to recover the signal.


----------



## mikigio

mikigio said:


> Hello, I have a problem with the lumagen pro.
> Using Calman the connection to the Video section of the lumagen is correct, see the CMS, Lut etc ...
> 
> Unfortunately, the connection to the pattern generator leaves the black screen and blocks the Lumagen, I have to exclude the connection from Calman and turn off the lumagen to go back to recover the signal.




15 days ago it worked properly


----------



## alex_t

mikigio said:


> 15 days ago it worked properly


Hello,

Have you checked that the baud rate is set at 9600 when Calman starts connecting to TP ?


----------



## mikigio

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> Have you checked that the baud rate is set at 9600 when Calman starts connecting to TP ?






No, but I'll go check.

Yesterday evening I noticed that when this happens if I remove the HDMI TV side and reconnect the pattern window back visible, it seems a problem of alignment on the hdmi, this happens to both 9 and 18 ghz


----------



## mikigio

mikigio said:


> No, but I'll go check.
> 
> Yesterday evening I noticed that when this happens if I remove the HDMI TV side and reconnect the pattern window back visible, it seems a problem of alignment on the hdmi, this happens to both 9 and 18 ghz


I found the solution to my problem, just turn off and on the TV and magically reappear the section on the pattern generator of Lumagen, even when the TV does not hook correctly the BluRay Player, only this did not happen before the latest updates


----------



## Chris5

Big improvements seen with 1080i SKY-UK sources again with 021018. Still room for improvement with 576i DVD’s of tv dramas though, vertical scrolling captions still look like blurry jelly (not checked with 021018 yet to be fair though).
Keep up this important good work


----------



## alex_t

Chris5 said:


> Big improvements seen with 1080i SKY-UK sources again with 021018. Still room for improvement with 576i DVD’s of tv dramas though, vertical scrolling captions still look like blurry jelly (not checked with 021018 yet to be fair though).
> Keep up this important good work


Hello,

Thank you. I reported the same feedback to Lumagen:
1) 1080i50 is now as good as my previous 2143
2) 576i DVD (film) is really sharper, combing is dramatically reduced (a few remains specially on face but it is acceptable from my point of view). Quality is really to close to my previous 2143 (I'm not sure I could see the difference through a blind test)


----------



## SJHT

I finally got Ken Whitcomb to calibrate my setup (Sony 885, Lumagen Pro)! Wow, this guy sure knows these products. He also spent the time to answer all of my rookie questions. Results look fantastic! Like others, he gave me SDR709, SDR2020 (using Pro IM) and a pass through to let the projector use HDR or SDR709. He also manually did a greyscale for the projector’s HDR setting. Highly recommended. Wish he lived closer to me. SJ


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

My DirecTV Mini-Genie 61 (4k model) since a firmware update the other month with 2k channels shows via Radiance Pro bt2020 not 709. Is this correct, as the 61 May convert all 2k to 2020? Or is 2k still 709 and this is an error with the Radiance Pro?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

SJHT said:


> I finally got Ken Whitcomb to calibrate my setup (Sony 885, Lumagen Pro)! Wow, this guy sure knows these products. He also spent the time to answer all of my rookie questions. Results look fantastic! Like others, he gave me SDR709, SDR2020 (using Pro IM) and a pass through to let the projector use HDR or SDR709. He also manually did a greyscale for the projector’s HDR setting. Highly recommended. Wish he lived closer to me. SJ


Ken did the same for my Radiance Pro and Sony 5000 last Dec! Phenomenal!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Alex Pilyak said:


> In theory you should not have problem with this ...


The older models config files cannot be transferred to new Radiance Pro models. Depending on how the calibration was done it might br simple to create a new config with the same LUT. However it is much more likely that a new calibration would be required. 

On RHARKNESS query about whether they are compatible with full UHD specs i think you need to be more specific. As to what specs?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> My DirecTV Mini-Genie 61 (4k model) since a firmware update the other month with 2k channels shows via Radiance Pro bt2020 not 709. Is this correct, as the 61 May convert all 2k to 2020? Or is 2k still 709 and this is an error with the Radiance Pro?


Did a bit of research at the Directv thread here at AVS. Apparently Directv w their 4k Mini-Genie 61 is converting all HD video from Rec709 to bt2020 w HDR; my picture is showing no adverse effects from this, as I compared to my Directv Genie 54 (which via HDMI feeds the Mini-Genie 61); as Ken Whitcomb calibrated and set up my Radiance Pro to tone mapping any HDR to my Sony 5000 projector.


----------



## mskreis

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Did a bit of research at the Directv thread here at AVS. Apparently Directv w their 4k Mini-Genie 61 is converting all HD video from Rec709 to bt2020 w HDR; my picture is showing no adverse effects from this, as I compared to my Directv Genie 54 (which via HDMI feeds the Mini-Genie 61); as Ken Whitcomb calibrated and set up my Radiance Pro to tone mapping any HDR to my Sony 5000 projector.




On my Genie I’m seeing rec709 converted to bt2020 SDR. I can’t view actual 4K HDR programming through my Pro due to HLG. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

mskreis said:


> On my Genie I’m seeing rec709 converted to bt2020 SDR. I can’t view actual 4K HDR programming through my Pro due to HLG.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Same here. Can view the 4k programming but the HDR HLG is not processed - Until the Radiance Pro firmware is revised for HLG.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 030118*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 030118*
Added HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma -- another type of HDR) input capability. 
Added ability to limit source via EDID to 1080p in menu under *Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Video EDID*. 
In this menu the setting labled 18Ghz is now called Video Limit. 
Added per input source audio EDID options in menu under *Input: Options: HDMI: Audio EDID* . 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Same here. Can view the 4k programming but the HDR HLG is not processed - Until the Radiance Pro firmware is revised for HLG.





Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 030118*
> Added HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma -- another type of HDR) input capability.
> Added ability to limit source via EDID to 1080p in menu under *Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Video EDID*.
> In this menu the setting labled 18Ghz is now called Video Limit.
> Added per input source audio EDID options in menu under *Input: Options: HDMI: Audio EDID* .
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


That was fast. Did the upgrade. My Radiance Pro info screen now shows incoming "HLG" showing HDR is detected on several DirecTV 4k HDR programs I had recorded. [email protected]@@

Gives me an idea. With several variants of HDR - perhaps the Radiance Pro can be programmed for each HDR variant, instead of displaying "HDR", instead displaying the HDR variant being processed from the source, e.g. "HLG" or "HDR10". So if you play Dolby Vision 4k, since the Radiance Pro only processes the "HDR10" component, it would display "HDR10". I am sort of a glutton for detailed info. HA!


----------



## jamesmil

Watching the Imagine Dragons concert in 4K HLG2020 on DirecTV right now with the latest firmware which is a real torture test of light and dark and it looks fantastic. I guess HLG doesn’t include source mastering metadata as the info screen doesn’t display any and the Radiance uses the < 2000 IM settings. EDIT: Looking deeper in settings it appears the Source Max is calculated at 1040 for this program at least.

Note the info display does say HLG, not HDR while showing HLG content from DirecTV (and the HDR trigger setting correctly fires for it as well, setting my projector to the correct memory setting for HDR content). Thanks Jim and Patrick for the great work here!


----------



## SJHT

Wow, the improvements for 1080i is huge with all the latest updates. Thanks to Lumagen/Patrick. Amazing. SJ


----------



## mikigio

Hi, I kindly ask for help to understand if I can resolve this situation.

When I have to see a BluRay, or a Movie on Apple TV and other similar situations with other components in the video chain, my Lumagen radiance pro 4242 about 20 days shows the screen Nero, to go back to see images on the TV I have to do one of the following :

-Turn off and on the Radiance again
-Change input, example from 1 to 2 and then return to 1, some works other not
- switch the TV off and on again

this thing happens on two different Oled tv (one Lg E6 the other Panasonic Ez950)

The problem occurs with either a 9ghz and 18ghz setting


----------



## arthurli

mikigio said:


> Hi, I kindly ask for help to understand if I can resolve this situation.
> 
> When I have to see a BluRay, or a Movie on Apple TV and other similar situations with other components in the video chain, my Lumagen radiance pro 4242 about 20 days shows the screen Nero, to go back to see images on the TV I have to do one of the following :
> 
> -Turn off and on the Radiance again
> -Change input, example from 1 to 2 and then return to 1, some works other not
> - switch the TV off and on again
> 
> this thing happens on two different Oled tv (one Lg E6 the other Panasonic Ez950)
> 
> The problem occurs with either a 9ghz or 18ghz setting


I have similar problem,( sometimes)when turn on my tv, picture appear with great distortion, and loud "Sa Sa" sound from the tv's speakers. And (sometimes ) no picture and sound.
Mostly can be solved by change to the other input and then back .
Sometimes even need to power off and restart the RadiancePro


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mikigio and arthurli have you contacted either your supplier or Lumagen to help you track down problem?


----------



## mikigio

Hi, last week I wrote an email here

[email protected] .


but I have not received answers, maybe I have to write somewhere else?




Today, not knowing where to bump my head I tried to enter Menu 0851, for a while it worked normally but then started to make black screen etc ...



Could it be an HDCP problem?

If that problem were what could I do?


----------



## thrang

Yes nice interlaced improvements - now onto frame based hdr tone-mapping!!!


----------



## SJHT

And finally PIP/POP!


----------



## mikigio

arthurli said:


> I have similar problem,( sometimes)when turn on my tv, picture appear with great distortion, and loud "Sa Sa" sound from the tv's speakers. And (sometimes ) no picture and sound.
> Mostly can be solved by change to the other input and then back .
> Sometimes even need to power off and restart the RadiancePro









Hi, currently my problem is solved by the commands Alt then Prev of the remote control, so the problem seems to be a synchronization between HDMI.

With the Alt then Prev procedure the images return to the screen.

Question, you at the Lumagen have you connected a TV or a video projector?

I add an information to the problem that happens in my case for those who develop the project Lumagen in the hope they can give me some indication of what I could do to make the operation of the videoprocessor more linear.

Example:
when I turn on the BD player (Cambridge Azur 751 or Pnasonic UB900, identical problem) the menu of the two readers is seen correctly but when I start the Blu Ray the image is seen for a short time but after the screen turns black, to recover the video I have to run Alt then Prev

Same problem on Apple TV

Same problem on the Calman software, USB connection to the PC, when I load the Lumagen Pattern generator the screen goes black, to see the gray bars opening I have to perform Alt and Prev on the remote control.

I understand that it is not a generalized problem, but up until 20 days ago this problem did not exist.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mikigio said:


> Hi, currently my problem is solved by the commands Alt then Prev of the remote control, so the problem seems to be a synchronization between HDMI.
> 
> With the Alt then Prev procedure the images return to the screen.
> 
> Question, you at the Lumagen have you connected a TV or a video projector?
> 
> I add an information to the problem that happens in my case for those who develop the project Lumagen in the hope they can give me some indication of what I could do to make the operation of the videoprocessor more linear.
> 
> Example:
> when I turn on the BD player (Cambridge Azur 751 or Pnasonic UB900, identical problem) the menu of the two readers is seen correctly but when I start the Blu Ray the image is seen for a short time but after the screen turns black, to recover the video I have to run Alt then Prev
> 
> Same problem on Apple TV
> 
> Same problem on the Calman software, USB connection to the PC, when I load the Lumagen Pattern generator the screen goes black, to see the gray bars opening I have to perform Alt and Prev on the remote control.
> 
> I understand that it is not a generalized problem, but up until 20 days ago this problem did not exist.


It would be good to also know the display you have and whether the sources are fed to a receiver first then on to the scaler...and also whether, when the image disappears, you are still able to see the Lumagen OSD.


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> It would be good to also know the display you have and whether the sources are fed to a receiver first then on to the scaler...and also whether, when the image disappears, you are still able to see the Lumagen OSD.




Hi and Thanks.

The problem comes with two different TVs:

Lg oled E6
Panasonic EZ950

Apple TV (input 3)
Pansonic UB900 HDR player (input 2)
Sky Q connected directly to the Lumagen (input 4)

Cambridge Azur 751 connected via an Onkyo TX-NR5010 Receiver (input 1)

When the image disappears, the Lumagen OSD can not be seen

I tried to disconnect each source and keep only the Panasonic UB900, I also disconnected the HDMI audio output from the Luamgen but the problem remains.

Only solution at the moment Alt and Prev


----------



## wjchan

mikigio said:


> Hi, currently my problem is solved by the commands Alt then Prev of the remote control, so the problem seems to be a synchronization between HDMI.
> 
> With the Alt then Prev procedure the images return to the screen.
> 
> Question, you at the Lumagen have you connected a TV or a video projector?
> 
> I add an information to the problem that happens in my case for those who develop the project Lumagen in the hope they can give me some indication of what I could do to make the operation of the videoprocessor more linear.
> 
> Example:
> when I turn on the BD player (Cambridge Azur 751 or Pnasonic UB900, identical problem) the menu of the two readers is seen correctly but when I start the Blu Ray the image is seen for a short time but after the screen turns black, to recover the video I have to run Alt then Prev
> 
> Same problem on Apple TV
> 
> Same problem on the Calman software, USB connection to the PC, when I load the Lumagen Pattern generator the screen goes black, to see the gray bars opening I have to perform Alt and Prev on the remote control.
> 
> I understand that it is not a generalized problem, but up until 20 days ago this problem did not exist.


I have a similar problem with Panasonic UB900 -> Lumagen 4242 -> Sony VPL-VW5000ES. I didn't know about Alt Prev and will give it a try next time. Audio HDMI (#1) on my Lumagen is not connected. I have tried different startup sequence but that doesn't seem to help.

--wilson


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mikigio said:


> Hi and Thanks.
> 
> The problem comes with two different TVs:
> 
> Lg oled E6
> Panasonic EZ950
> 
> Apple TV (input 3)
> Pansonic UB900 HDR player (input 2)
> Sky Q connected directly to the Lumagen (input 4)
> 
> Cambridge Azur 751 connected via an Onkyo TX-NR5010 Receiver (input 1)
> 
> When the image disappears, the Lumagen OSD can not be seen
> 
> I tried to disconnect each source and keep only the Panasonic UB900, I also disconnected the HDMI audio output from the Luamgen but the problem remains.
> 
> Only solution at the moment Alt and Prev


OK These things do sound like cable issues to me. However, you said it used to work but only started going wrong lately? If so, have there been any firmware updates to the displays or to the scaler? If yes, to the scaler can you toll back to earlier one that worked and see if it goes back to functioning. That sort of information will help Lumagen if you can give it to them


----------



## mikigio

Hello.

I also thought you have cables, my cable are Ruipro optical fiber, I changed the cables with others always adequate to the amount of data but the problem does not change.

The tv’s do not have new firmware.

The problem seems to have appeared after one of Lumagen's latest firmware.

Can I downgrade?

it would be great


----------



## mikigio

wjchan said:


> I have a similar problem with Panasonic UB900 -> Lumagen 4242 -> Sony VPL-VW5000ES. I didn't know about Alt Prev and will give it a try next time. Audio HDMI (#1) on my Lumagen is not connected. I have tried different startup sequence but that doesn't seem to help.
> 
> --wilson



How your problem develops.


----------



## mikela

I frequently lose lock when switching inputs. Thanks for the Alt + Prev approach. I must have missed that in the manual and will give it a try.


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> OK These things do sound like cable issues to me. However, you said it used to work but only started going wrong lately? If so, have there been any firmware updates to the displays or to the scaler? If yes, to the scaler can you toll back to earlier one that worked and see if it goes back to functioning. That sort of information will help Lumagen if you can give it to them



I loaded the firmware 020518 and the problem seems to be eliminated, the bluray flow normally, even Calman connects to the Lumagen Pattern Generator without problems.

Now I try to recharge the latest firmware to see if the situation gets worse.

Question:
the firmware must be loaded one by one or the latest includes all the previous ones?


----------



## jrp

General comments based on some posts:

If you lose lock on an input switch, this is almost always cable related, although we do see some devices that have what I consider marginal inputs and they can have issues with a "restart" no matter how good the cable. We have found that switching to a RUIPRO or Monoprice 18 GHz fiber cable has in most cases eliminated this issue (even compared to other fiber cables).

One way to minimize the number of times the Pro needs to restart the output is to manually select the modes you want. The reason this helps is that there are fewer things for the software to consider than the default "Auto" output mode. We have seen the Pro's input chip say "I'm locked on to xxx signal rate" incorrectly and so a few seconds later say "I'm now locked on to yyy." In auto mode the spurious xxx might create a mode that needs a restart that would not have been needed if the output mode list was manually limited.

Here are a few examples (these are also in the new version of the manual we recently posted):

MENU 0870	Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
MENU 0871	Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
MENU 0872	Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
MENU 0873	Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
MENU 0874	Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
MENU 0876	Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
MENU 0877	Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off

For a 18 GHz projector/TV if you select MENU 0874, this should eliminate all output restarts except going to/from HDR sources. This works well if you are not overly concerned with the motion judder a 24 Hertz movie has when output is at 60 Hertz.

Note that the output for the MENU 0874 code is actually 4k59.94. By not allowing the switch to 60.00 sometimes used by OSDs (poorly thought out design for a video product to output 60.00 for an OSD) output restarts for this case are eliminated. Almost all sources will be at 59.94 or 23.97, but there are a few programs at 60.00 or 24.00 (again because of what I consider poorly thought out choices) and these would have been shown at 60.00. So you would then have some frame drops using MENU 0874. Most people do not notice the frame drops but if you do, you may want a second memory set up to allow 60.00 and/or 24.00 output for this source material.

You could achieve any these special mode lists using the Output Setup Menu, and even come up with your own set up to limit output rates. These codes are can make setup faster.

Make sure to do a Save after any changes you want to be permanent.

===============

A note on calibration. I think I posted this before but noticed a couple comments on using the Pro as the pattern generator for calibration having an issue, which may be helped by the following:

I have information from two different calibrators that they have noticed that they get more accurate readings if the Pro is on an unused input (or one that is off). I believe that this is because the Pro can take longer to draw the pattern if it is processing interrupts, etc., from the sources, and that the calibration software is taking the measurement too soon in this case. By selecting an unused input, the time for the Pro to draw the pattern is shorter and more consistent. The calibrators report that this gives them more consistent readings.

=============== 

I saw at least one report that the Pro's new HLG mode is working well (thanks for the feedback).

If you are using HLG with the new release, please let us know how it is working for you. 

Because HLG dynamic range is similar to a 1000 nit MaxCLL HDR10 source, we have chosen to use the same "


----------



## SJHT

Are the menu output setting commands global or only for the particular memory/input you are on? Thanks. SJ


----------



## jrp

mikigio said:


> Hi, last week I wrote an email here [email protected] but I have not received answers, maybe I have to write somewhere else?
> 
> Today, not knowing where to bump my head I tried to enter Menu 0851, for a while it worked normally but then started to make black screen etc ...
> 
> Could it be an HDCP problem?
> 
> If that problem were what could I do?


This is likely only going to be solved with a better HDMI cable. Most likely the cable that needs to be improved is the cable from the Pro to the TV/projector.

We strongly recommend either the RUIPRO or the Monoprice 18 GHz fiber for the output from the Pro to the TV/projector. There are other 18 GHz fiber cables, but we have seen issues with several. These recommended cables are not too expensive and work well.

The MENU 0873 is another mode to try (make sure to Save after). However, you still need to try one of the two cables above (unless you already have one of course).

I know I point at the cable all the time, but it is really the only degree of freedom you have to fix these issues.

==== 

It is very possible your email was stopped by our sometimes over active SPAM filter. You can send another, or perhaps from a different email account. Make sure there are no attachments. If after sending it you leave a brief phone message (503-574-2211) that you sent it and your email spelled out by letters we can search the SPAM folder for it and add you to our white-list.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Are the menu output setting commands global or only for the particular memory/input you are on? Thanks. SJ


With default settings, any changes to in the Output menu affect all inputs, all input memories and all input resolutions. Style0, and output mode as "Auto" are the default selections for all inputs, all input memories and all input resolutions. CMS0 is the default for all SDR sources, and CMS1 is the default for all HDR sources. So changes to the output mode, CMS0, CMS1, or Style0 will affect all inputs, all memories, and all input resolutions unless you change the pointers in the Output Setup Menu.

In the Output Setup Menu, you can program different modes, CMS's, and Styles to each input, input memory, input resolution, 2D verses 3D, and for HDR/SDR which CMS is used for HDR and which for SDR, independently.

Changes to the input menu affect one input, and sometimes one input resolution and/or one input memory (MEMA to MEMD).

So you can program just about any set of configuration options you want, but the good news is that for most systems you can use the defaults. There are some manual settings I have mentioned previously to improve switching, or manually enable HDR in the EDID and/or HDR Intensity Mapping, but even these are optional.


----------



## mikigio

jrp said:


> This is likely only going to be solved with a better HDMI cable. Most likely the cable that needs to be improved is the cable from the Pro to the TV/projector.
> 
> We strongly recommend either the RUIPRO or the Monoprice 18 GHz fiber for the output from the Pro to the TV/projector. There are other 18 GHz fiber cables, but we have seen issues with several. These recommended cables are not too expensive and work well.
> 
> The MENU 0873 is another mode to try (make sure to Save after). However, you still need to try one of the two cables above (unless you already have one of course).
> 
> I know I point at the cable all the time, but it is really the only degree of freedom you have to fix these issues.
> 
> ====
> 
> *It is very possible your email was stopped by our sometimes over active SPAM filter. You can send another, or perhaps from a different email account. Make sure there are no attachments. If after sending it you leave a brief phone message (503-574-2211) that you sent it and your email spelled out by letters we can search the SPAM *folder for it and add you to our white-list.



Ok, Thank you.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*

updated...


*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
Press Menu then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler" 
Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0910 - service mode
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

Edits based on posts by: jrp, colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, et alia


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> I saw at least one report that the Pro's new HLG mode is working well (thanks for the feedback).
> 
> If you are using HLG with the new release, please let us know how it is working for you.
> 
> Because HLG dynamic range is similar to a 1000 nit MaxCLL HDR10 source, we have chosen to use the same "


----------



## Ian_Currie

Question for anyone that might know:

Does the Lumagen not do 2160p30? Some of my TV shows are encoded at a rate of 29.870 and I can't seem to stop the Lumagen from changing the rate to 2160p60.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Ian_Currie said:


> Question for anyone that might know:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Lumagen not do 2160p30? Some of my TV shows are encoded at a rate of 29.870 and I can't seem to stop the Lumagen from changing the rate to 2160p60.




Sure it does. It seems to be yours is in locked state, try resetting it? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mskreis

jrp said:


> I saw at least one report that the Pro's new HLG mode is working well (thanks for the feedback).
> 
> 
> If you are using HLG with the new release, please let us know how it is working for you.
> 
> Because HLG dynamic range is similar to a 1000 nit MaxCLL HDR10 source, we have chosen to use the same "


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Ian_Currie said:


> Question for anyone that might know:
> 
> Does the Lumagen not do 2160p30? Some of my TV shows are encoded at a rate of 29.870 and I can't seem to stop the Lumagen from changing the rate to 2160p60.


Not in front of mine righ tnow so don't know whether it has an incoming signal sub memory of UHD30Hz. If it doesn't it'll fall under OTHER and it is likely that you have OTHER set to output UHD60Hz. Juat check if this is the case and if so change the OUTPUT for incoming OTHER to what yuo want it to do...


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> Not in front of mine righ tnow so don't know whether it has an incoming signal sub memory of UHD30Hz. If it doesn't it'll fall under OTHER and it is likely that you have OTHER set to output UHD60Hz. Juat check if this is the case and if so change the OUTPUT for incoming OTHER to what yuo want it to do...


Thanks, it wasn't a UHD, it was SDR709. But yes, it was falling under OTHER but I could find no way to specify/change what the output should be for 'other'. I went through every menu/submenu multiple times with no luck. Could be I'm just missing it, but I felt I was thorough.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Ian_Currie said:


> Thanks, it wasn't a UHD, it was SDR709. But yes, it was falling under OTHER but I could find no way to specify/change what the output should be for 'other'. I went through every menu/submenu multiple times with no luck. Could be I'm just missing it, but I felt I was thorough.


MENU>OUTOUT>OUTPUT SETUP this throws up a large OSD on screen. navigate to In Condition MODE and cycle it round to say OTHER. Then right rusor over to VIDEO OUTPUT SELECTION side and where it says MODE it will currently be 2160/60 Change it to the res you want and press OK then MENU SAVE SAVE SAVE to make it stick.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> MENU>OUTOUT>OUTPUT SETUP this throws up a large OSD on screen. navigate to In Condition MODE and cycle it round to say OTHER. Then right rusor over to VIDEO OUTPUT SELECTION side and where it says MODE it will currently be 2160/60 Change it to the res you want and press OK then MENU SAVE SAVE SAVE to make it stick.


Once again you come to my rescue, Gordon. Many thanks!


----------



## MJV29

I was just wondering if anyone has attempted to write up a manual for LightSpace and the Radiance Pro as of yet? I would love to get one or be willing to pay for one.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 030418*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 030418*
Fixup for 4:3 and Letterbox remote control entry not working in 030118 update. 
Fix for very slow or sometimes not acquiring signal from some sources (we saw a case here with a Panasonic UB900 UHD player but there may be some other sources). 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> General comments based on some posts:
> For a 18 GHz projector/TV if you select MENU 0874, this should eliminate all output restarts except going to/from HDR sources. This works well if you are not overly concerned with the motion judder a 24 Hertz movie has when output is at 60 Hertz.
> 
> Note that the output for the MENU 0874 code is actually 4k59.94. By not allowing the switch to 60.00 sometimes used by OSDs (poorly thought out design for a video product to output 60.00 for an OSD) output restarts for this case are eliminated. Almost all sources will be at 59.94 or 23.97, but there are a few programs at 60.00 or 24.00 (again because of what I consider poorly thought out choices) and these would have been shown at 60.00. So you would then have some frame drops using MENU 0874. Most people do not notice the frame drops but if you do, you may want a second memory set up to allow 60.00 and/or 24.00 output for this source material.
> 
> Make sure to do a Save after any changes you want to be permanent.


Thanks Jim. I have set MENU 0874 and have tried this on all sources and scan rates, etc and works and looks like a charm with my Sony 5000ES projector. NICE! Now video switching is much smoother and faster with far less hiccups!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> I saw at least one report that the Pro's new HLG mode is working well (thanks for the feedback).
> 
> If you are using HLG with the new release, please let us know how it is working for you.
> 
> Because HLG dynamic range is similar to a 1000 nit MaxCLL HDR10 source, we have chosen to use the same "


----------



## SJHT

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Thanks Jim. I have set MENU 0874 and have tried this on all sources and scan rates, etc and works and looks like a charm with my Sony 5000ES projector. NICE! Now video switching is much smoother and faster with far less hiccups!


Do you not use 4K24?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

SJHT said:


> Do you not use 4K24?


Not anymore. 4k59.94 looks fine for all incoming video from my testing so far; so unless I see a problem down the line, I am a happy camper. My picture looks great and as good as ever for all incoming video and now the Radiance Pro HDMI switching is so much improved with much less issues.
At least so far!


----------



## bearcat2002

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Not anymore. 4k59.94 looks fine for all incoming video from my testing so far; so unless I see a problem down the line, I am a happy camper. My picture looks great and as good as ever for all incoming video and now the Radiance Pro HDMI switching is so much improved with much less issues.
> At least so far!


Steve, 
Can you tell me if there is any advantage of switching with the Radiance Pro itself or using a Receiver that has ample inputs? Thank you!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

bearcat2002 said:


> Steve,
> Can you tell me if there is any advantage of switching with the Radiance Pro itself or using a Receiver that has ample inputs? Thank you!


If you spend the bucks for the Radiance Pro, you want to use that for switching and everything with video, then route HDMI from Vision Pro to SSP or receiver for audio. That's my two cents and how I have always done it! I am finding that by having the Radiance Pro output just ONE scan/refresh rate to my Sony 5000ES projector that my Theta CBIVA SSP is much more stable with sound coming on when turning on the system - before with Radiance Pro set to "Auto", with Radiance Pro processor going through more video rate steps, I had more issues with my SSP audio. The same may well be true for other SSPs and receivers I bet!


----------



## bearcat2002

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If you spend the bucks for the Radiance Pro, you want to use that for switching and everything with video, then route HDMI from Vision Pro to SSP or receiver for audio. That's my two cents and how I have always done it! I am finding that by having the Radiance Pro output just ONE scan/refresh rate to my Sony 5000ES projector that my Theta CBIVA SSP is much more stable with sound coming on when turning on the system - before with Radiance Pro set to "Auto", with Radiance Pro processor going through more video rate steps, I had more issues with my SSP audio. The same may well be true for other SSPs and receivers I bet!


Thanks for the quick reply. Sounds like I'll need to do that MENU 0874 too! I'm new to this but trying to figure it out.


----------



## bstone261

Guys, I am learning all I can from this thread. Thank You.
My setup:
OPPO203 -> Lumagen 4242 (18Ghz in and out) -> JVC X750 (video) -> Marantz 7704 (audio)

I had Ken do a calibration on my Lumagen 4242, I am lucky as I am local.
I have a few questions on setup:

I have an OPPO 203, what settings are you guys using with this new OPPO firmware update? 

I see the new Lumagen firmware includes a new HLG. I followed the instructions on setting up but it will not save; I have my Directv on input 2 and followed the instructions below. It defaults back to what it was before after the save: Do I need to have the new 4k Directv receiver?


Gordon Fraser said:


> MENU>OUTOUT>OUTPUT SETUP this throws up a large OSD on screen. navigate to In Condition MODE and cycle it round to say OTHER. Then right rusor over to VIDEO OUTPUT SELECTION side and where it says MODE it will currently be 2160/60 Change it to the res you want and press OK then MENU SAVE SAVE SAVE to make it stick.


My input when on Directv is 1080i.

Thank you.


----------



## Mike_WI

bstone261 said:


> Guys, I am learning all I can from this thread. Thank You.
> My setup:
> OPPO203 -> Lumagen 4242 (18Ghz in and out) -> JVC X750 (video) -> Marantz 7704 (audio)
> 
> I had Ken do a calibration on my Lumagen 4242, I am lucky as I am local.
> I have a few questions on setup:
> 
> I have an OPPO 203, what settings are you guys using with this new OPPO firmware update?
> 
> I see the new Lumagen firmware includes a new HLG. I followed the instructions on setting up but it will not save; I have my Directv on input 2 and followed the instructions below. It defaults back to what it was before after the save: Do I need to have the new 4k Directv receiver?
> 
> My input when on Directv is 1080i.
> 
> Thank you.


If you have an Oppo 203 and Lumagen I think Oppo should be set to "Source Direct" and let Lumagen do the work.

Mike


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bstone261 said:


> Guys, I am learning all I can from this thread. Thank You.
> My setup:
> OPPO203 -> Lumagen 4242 (18Ghz in and out) -> JVC X750 (video) -> Marantz 7704 (audio)
> 
> I had Ken do a calibration on my Lumagen 4242, I am lucky as I am local.
> I have a few questions on setup:
> 
> I have an OPPO 203, what settings are you guys using with this new OPPO firmware update?
> 
> I see the new Lumagen firmware includes a new HLG. I followed the instructions on setting up but it will not save; I have my Directv on input 2 and followed the instructions below. It defaults back to what it was before after the save: Do I need to have the new 4k Directv receiver?
> 
> My input when on Directv is 1080i.
> 
> Thank you.


What are you trying to do? You are talking about HLG but the source is a HD not an UHD box. The procedure i posted was about how to set a specific output resolution and refresh rate for a given incoming signal resolution and refresh rate. If you are inputting 1080i to the scaler then you do not go to the OTHER section in the procedure you go to the one for 1080i...and you should note that you are only setting this for whatever input and memory you are using at that time.

If you want to see HLG from Direct TV I'd guess you need a 4K Box but i am in UK so don't know for sure.


----------



## bstone261

Gordon Fraser said:


> What are you trying to do? You are talking about HLG but the source is a HD not an UHD box. The procedure i posted was about how to set a specific output resolution and refresh rate for a given incoming signal resolution and refresh rate. If you are inputting 1080i to the scaler then you do not go to the OTHER section in the procedure you go to the one for 1080i...and you should note that you are only setting this for whatever input and memory you are using at that time.
> 
> If you want to see HLG from Direct TV I'd guess you need a 4K Box but i am in UK so don't know for sure.


That was my guess, that I would need to upgrade my Directv box. Thxs


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

You need the DirecTV Mini-Genie C61 box to get the 3 4k HDR channels. Along with a Genie. I have the Genie 54, which is 2k, but serves as the DVR for the C61.


----------



## turls

bearcat2002 said:


> Steve,
> Can you tell me if there is any advantage of switching with the Radiance Pro itself or using a Receiver that has ample inputs? Thank you!


I know it is easy to forget, but you'll only be able to take advantage of eventual PoP/PiP with inputs going through the Pro as well.


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If you spend the bucks for the Radiance Pro, you want to use that for switching and everything with video, then route HDMI from Vision Pro to SSP or receiver for audio. That's my two cents and how I have always done it! I am finding that by having the Radiance Pro output just ONE scan/refresh rate to my Sony 5000ES projector that my Theta CBIVA SSP is much more stable with sound coming on when turning on the system - before with Radiance Pro set to "Auto", with Radiance Pro processor going through more video rate steps, I had more issues with my SSP audio. The same may well be true for other SSPs and receivers I bet!


Honestly, it's pretty easy to see the frame issue outputting 23.98 at 59.94. So, using the "spending the bucks" measuring stick, I WANT native frame/color/dynamic range reliability/switching for the money invested...

Let me preface the below by saying I have the _absolute_ highest respect for Jim and Patrick - they are really tireless and seemingly available 24/7, and that goes a huge way toward support of a product and company. I can't think of many better in the regard.

Yet the HDMI handshake issue is a real one (either very slow or loss of sync), and the above workaround is really not acceptable. Perhaps they need a different HDMI vendor for their chip set, something they have more control over.

But its sort of been like commuting to NYC on the bus from New Jersey. Some days I get the new bus, with good suspension and brakes, a careful driver, and no traffic; other days I get the slightly older bus, something the Politburo used for forced rally, with insane start and stop traffic, and a more insane driver who thinks rapid acceleration and deceleration to main a 4-6" gap to the bus in front of him is the height of driving prowess. Thus the same commute can feel very different day to day - and this is how I feel when I boot my system...will I get video or not?

Having said that, I'm doing well with the latest 030418 firmware; well, at least for the past three days.

Having said THAT, I've said THAT before with other firmwares!

Having SAID THAT...give me frame-based HDR and PIP/POP and I'll be preoccupied for a while...

The net benefit is still positive with the Radiance in the chain, especially with a proper calibration - but the sync anomalies make the theater not always family friendly (if I'm not there to give the Radiance the common courtesy of a reach-around, my family may give up and leave).

Another thing for Sony VPL-VW5000es users - you want to output HDR from the Radiance, as this flag is required for Sony for proper 2020 color performance (according to discussions on the engineering side of Sony). So I use a hybrid approach - HDR IM *on* in the Radiance/HDR2020 Output, MAX Light around *5500* (YMMV) on the Radiance, *HDR Out*, and use the *Contrast HDR* slider in the 5000 to salt to taste based on content.

The biggest difference you will see is in color rendition.


----------



## Roland Janus

thrang said:


> Honestly, it's pretty easy to see the frame issue outputting 23.98 at 59.94. So, using the "spending the bucks" measuring stick, I WANT native frame/color/dynamic range reliability/switching for the money invested...
> 
> Let me preface the below by saying I have the _absolute_ highest respect for Jim and Patrick - they are really tireless and seemingly available 24/7, and that goes a huge way toward support of a product and company. I can't think of many better in the regard.
> 
> Yet the HDMI handshake issue is a real one (either very slow or loss of sync), and the above workaround is really not acceptable. Perhaps they need a different HDMI vendor for their chip set, something they have more control over.
> 
> But its sort of been like commuting to NYC on the bus from New Jersey. Some days I get the new bus, with good suspension and brakes, a careful driver, and no traffic; other days I get the slightly older bus, something the Politburo used for forced rally, with insane start and stop traffic, and a more insane driver who thinks rapid acceleration and deceleration to main a 4-6" gap to the bus in front of him is the height of driving prowess. Thus the same commute can feel very different day to day - and this is how I feel when I boot my system...will I get video or not?
> 
> Having said that, I'm doing well with the latest 030418 firmware; well, at least for the past three days.
> 
> Having said THAT, I've said THAT before with other firmwares!
> 
> Having SAID THAT...give me frame-based HDR and PIP/POP and I'll be preoccupied for a while...
> 
> The net benefit is still positive with the Radiance in the chain, especially with a proper calibration - but the sync anomalies make the theater not always family friendly (if I'm not there to give the Radiance the common courtesy of a reach-around, my family may give up and leave).
> 
> Another thing for Sony VPL-VW5000es users - you want to output HDR from the Radiance, as this flag is required for Sony for proper 2020 color performance (according to discussions on the engineering side of Sony). So I use a hybrid approach - HDR IM *on* in the Radiance/HDR2020 Output, MAX Light around *5500* (YMMV) on the Radiance, *HDR Out*, and use the *Contrast HDR* slider in the 5000 to salt to taste based on content.
> 
> The biggest difference you will see is in color rendition.


I also own a 5000, but it's so confusing to read about different advices on how to handle 2020/HDR.
HDR in, SDR 2020 out, letting the radiance do everything or HDR2020 in and out.


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> Honestly, it's pretty easy to see the frame issue outputting 23.98 at 59.94. So, using the "spending the bucks" measuring stick, I WANT native frame/color/dynamic range reliability/switching for the money invested...
> 
> Let me preface the below by saying I have the _absolute_ highest respect for Jim and Patrick - they are really tireless and seemingly available 24/7, and that goes a huge way toward support of a product and company. I can't think of many better in the regard.
> 
> Yet the HDMI handshake issue is a real one (either very slow or loss of sync), and the above workaround is really not acceptable. Perhaps they need a different HDMI vendor for their chip set, something they have more control over.
> 
> But its sort of been like commuting to NYC on the bus from New Jersey. Some days I get the new bus, with good suspension and brakes, a careful driver, and no traffic; other days I get the slightly older bus, something the Politburo used for forced rally, with insane start and stop traffic, and a more insane driver who thinks rapid acceleration and deceleration to main a 4-6" gap to the bus in front of him is the height of driving prowess. Thus the same commute can feel very different day to day - and this is how I feel when I boot my system...will I get video or not?
> 
> Having said that, I'm doing well with the latest 030418 firmware; well, at least for the past three days.
> 
> Having said THAT, I've said THAT before with other firmwares!
> 
> Having SAID THAT...give me frame-based HDR and PIP/POP and I'll be preoccupied for a while...
> 
> The net benefit is still positive with the Radiance in the chain, especially with a proper calibration - but the sync anomalies make the theater not always family friendly (if I'm not there to give the Radiance the common courtesy of a reach-around, my family may give up and leave).
> 
> Another thing for Sony VPL-VW5000es users - you want to output HDR from the Radiance, as this flag is required for Sony for proper 2020 color performance (according to discussions on the engineering side of Sony). So I use a hybrid approach - HDR IM *on* in the Radiance/HDR2020 Output, MAX Light around *5500* (YMMV) on the Radiance, *HDR Out*, and use the *Contrast HDR* slider in the 5000 to salt to taste based on content.
> 
> The biggest difference you will see is in color rendition.


This is very interesting that even though the 2020 flag is sent from the Radiance, that the Sony would not have proper performance in this color space without HDR flag. I am going to link the above post in the 5000 thread.


----------



## SJHT

There must be something different in the 5000 HDMI chipset as its baby brother 885 syncs fast with any of the recent Pro firmware updates. 10 seconds max for ANY change (I’m running the newest HDMI output firmware), but most are much less than that (1-5 seconds). I guess that’s why we all hate HDMI. Coming from a JVC RS600 it’s like day and night difference. SJ


----------



## kaotikr1

LJG said:


> This is very interesting that even though the 2020 flag is sent from the Radiance, that the Sony would not have proper performance in this color space without HDR flag. I am going to link the above post in the 5000 thread.


I would assume that should be the same for the 885ES, but I don't believe I am seeing that same behavior. I still hit about 90% of DCI-P3 when I am using the HDR IM of the Lumagen.


----------



## SJHT

LJG said:


> This is very interesting that even though the 2020 flag is sent from the Radiance, that the Sony would not have proper performance in this color space without HDR flag. I am going to link the above post in the 5000 thread.


isn’t this just for the Oppo?


----------



## SJHT

kaotikr1 said:


> I would assume that should be the same for the 885ES, but I don't believe I am seeing that same behavior. I still hit about 90% of DCI-P3 when I am using the HDR IM of the Lumagen.


Same here measured by Ken Whitcomb in my theater....SJ


----------



## jrp

I feel I need to comment on Thrang's post blaming the Radiance Pro for his VW5000ES lock on issues.

First let me say that Thrang has been great about working with us to try to resolve the issues with his VW5000ES. This is not intended to say any thing negative about him or his conclusion. Thrang and I have had this discussion many times and I we always end up saying we disagree on the cause. I have no problem with that but I do want to post what I believe is the issue.

===== 

The Sony VW5000ES is Sony's first attempt at supporting an 18 GHz input. It is clear from talking to many VW5000ES owners that it is not their best effort to date.

However, we have in my estimation, well over 100 Radiance Pro units driving Sony VW5000ES projectors and only a very few have issues. Once people change to our recommended RUIPRO fiber cable, and use input 2 on the VW5000ES (which works better than input 1 from field reports), the Sony VW5000ES works well (even though the Sony VW5000ES does have a rather long lock on time).

So everyone does not think I am negative on Sony, I can report that Sony has upped their game on 18 GHz inputs for the VW675ES and VW885ES. These projector's input design seem improved compared to the Sony VW5000ES, and I do not know of any systems with either of these two projectors with issues. Might be some that I do not know about of course.

For my part I can say I help people with HDMI issues daily. I have been able to remotely help people get their HDMI issues resolved in almost all cases, even with the Sony VW5000ES. Once people switch to the cables I recommend, and we address other issues (like audio processors that do not implement all HDMI audio interrupts, being driven form the audio-only Pro Output 1, which then miss the needed audio interrupts), we get their systems working well. I also understand transmission line theory, chip design, and what is necessary for a well designed HDMI circuit board input and output design.

I should point out that some HDMI input chips will perform differently due to manufacturing process variation and this can mean there are projectors with corner-case input chips that are just not as good as other chips of the same chip type.

Given Thrang has been very helpful and tried a number of cables, many software updates, and many tests for us, and that we sent him a second Radiance Pro unit to test that works the same as the one he had, I can point to the concept of once you eliminate everything else, what remains is the answer. What remains in Thrang's system is he has a VW5000ES input board that is "different" than other VW5000ES units due to manufacturing process variation.

Thrang does not agree. I could be wrong. However, I stand by my experience in remotely debugging HDMI problems that this is the case. What I am very sure of at this point is the issue is not the Radiance Pro. I always hesitate publicly contradicting our customers conclusions, but I felt it necessary in this case. No offense to Thrang is intended, and I have tried to present only the facts that led me to my conclusion.

On to the next topic.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> I feel I need to comment on Thrang's post blaming the Radiance Pro for his VW5000ES lock on issues.
> 
> First let me say that Thrang has been great about working with us to try to resolve the issues with his VW5000ES. This is not intended to say any thing negative about him or his conclusion. Thrang and I have had this discussion many times and I we always end up saying we disagree on the cause. I have no problem with that but I do want to post what I believe is the issue.
> 
> =====
> 
> The Sony VW5000ES is Sony's first attempt at supporting an 18 GHz input. It is clear from talking to many VW5000ES owners that it is not their best effort to date.
> 
> However, we have in my estimation, well over 100 Radiance Pro units driving Sony VW5000ES projectors and only a very few have issues. Once people change to our recommended RUIPRO fiber cable, and use input 2 on the VW5000ES (which works better than input 1 from field reports), the Sony VW5000ES works well (even though the Sony VW5000ES does have a rather long lock on time).
> 
> So everyone does not think I am negative on Sony, I can report that Sony has upped their game on 18 GHz inputs for the VW675ES and VW885ES. These projector's input design seem improved compared to the Sony VW5000ES, and I do not know of any systems with either of these two projectors with issues. Might be some that I do not know about of course.
> 
> For my part I can say I help people with HDMI issues daily. I have been able to remotely help people get their HDMI issues resolved in almost all cases, even with the Sony VW5000ES. Once people switch to the cables I recommend, and we address other issues (like audio processors that do not implement all HDMI audio interrupts, being driven form the audio-only Pro Output 1, which then miss the needed audio interrupts), we get their systems working well. I also understand transmission line theory, chip design, and what is necessary for a well designed HDMI circuit board input and output design.
> 
> I should point out that some HDMI input chips will perform differently due to manufacturing process variation and this can mean there are projectors with corner-case input chips that are just not as good as other chips of the same chip type.
> 
> Given Thrang has been very helpful and tried a number of cables, many software updates, and many tests for us, and that we sent him a second Radiance Pro unit to test that works the same as the one he had, I can point to the concept of once you eliminate everything else, what remains is the answer. What remains in Thrang's system is he has a VW5000ES input board that is "different" than other VW5000ES units due to manufacturing process variation.
> 
> Thrang does not agree. I could be wrong. However, I stand by my experience in remotely debugging HDMI problems that this is the case. What I am very sure of at this point is the issue is not the Radiance Pro. I always hesitate publicly contradicting our customers conclusions, but I felt it necessary in this case. No offense to Thrang is intended, and I have tried to present only the facts that led me to my conclusion.
> 
> On to the next topic.


Completely understand that this is very difficult to trace; the only consideration is the inverse of what you conclude it true - without the Radiance, the 5000 does not exhibit any of these issues with any device or two different processors.

Yet...perhaps there’s progress...with the new Radiance and the latest firmware, I’m three or four days into a glitch-free system boot...if I have time this weekend I will try the latest firmware on the other unit to see if the consistency remains. I did notice that the latest was a 5 minute FPGA update, and mentioned addressing sync times, so perhaps there was some progress there.

Thanks again for all yours and Patrick’s help...


----------



## mikigio

Hi, I continue with the video tests for my problem Black Screen, *in response to JRP (I have the fiber optic cable RuyPro)* I hope to explain it in a clear, excuse me if some things are not clear enough.

A few days ago I reported some problems with the black screen that I have on my LG E6 with some devices connected to the Lumagen RAdiance Pro 4242.

1) I had tried a comparison with the Panasonic Ez950 and I noticed the same behavior of Black Screen as I have on LG E6 but re-doing the test I realized that the HDMI cable of the connection to the Panasonic was not adequate, so I used the RuyPro cable that use on LG E6 and *in this mode the Panasonic EZ950 Oled never has a black screen*, so the problem lies in LG E6 But .....

2).....But Lg E6 connected directly to the Cambridge Azur BD 751, connected directly to the Panasonic UB900, connected directly to the Apple TV never has any problem of black screen, the issue HDMI sync on link direkt does not exist, everything works fine.

3) if I insert the Pro 4242 those components return to propose black screen, I can see the Home of BD or UHD readers but when the movie starts to lose sync and the screen goes black, as I had already highlighted to return to have an image I have to turn off and turn on the TV again or turn off and on the Lumagen (RuyPro connection cable - works well with Panasonic Oled)....*or Alt Prev*

4) *at this point I tried a cheap LCD connected to the Lumagen, he also works properly .... so the problem is the combination with LG?*

5) I would say yes, but the black screen issue makes me a bit of annoyance, so I thought to insert a HDFury Linker, with this configuration I have no problem even on LG, I don't black screen:
BluRay player, appleTv, UHD player connected to the Pro 4242 connected to Hd Fury connected to the TV everything works properly, I don't have a black screen under any circumstances.

My conclusion is that there is a bad compatibility between the HDMI structure of the LG E6 TV vs the Pro 4242


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> Another thing for Sony VPL-VW5000es users - you want to output HDR from the Radiance, as this flag is required for Sony for proper 2020 color performance (according to discussions on the engineering side of Sony). So I use a hybrid approach - HDR IM *on* in the Radiance/HDR2020 Output, MAX Light around *5500* (YMMV) on the Radiance, *HDR Out*, and use the *Contrast HDR* slider in the 5000 to salt to taste based on content.
> 
> The biggest difference you will see is in color rendition.


Can I ask what you mean by IM? (e.g. HDR IM)

I'm also finding that there is a big difference in color rendition on my JVC RS-4500 when outputting HDR2020 vs converting to SDR2020. I don't suppose there is any way to tone-map within the HDR 2020 space?


----------



## thrang

Ian_Currie said:


> Can I ask what you mean by IM? (e.g. HDR IM)
> 
> I'm also finding that there is a big difference in color rendition on my JVC RS-4500 when outputting HDR2020 vs converting to SDR2020. I don't suppose there is any way to tone-map within the HDR 2020 space?


Technically, yes - you can use a hybrid approach (which is what I'm doing right now), though frankly, I'm not sure how the Radiance manages IM this way. 



Copy your existing calibration into un-used CM - name it HDR Out or whatever...
In this new CMS, set the CMS colorspace to output HDR2020
In CMS > HDR Mapping, turn the feature On, and set your max nits (I've found around 5500 for me and the Sony 5000, might be less for the 4500)
Make sure your 4500 is in HDR mode - presuming it auto-switches...
 
The Left Menu Arrow fine-tune options are still there, though Shape and Transition options don't do very much, as I believe they are designed for optimizing the output via SDR2020.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> Completely understand that this is very difficult to trace; the only consideration is the inverse of what you conclude it true - without the Radiance, the 5000 does not exhibit any of these issues with any device or two different processors.
> 
> Yet...perhaps there’s progress...with the new Radiance and the latest firmware, I’m three or four days into a glitch-free system boot...if I have time this weekend I will try the latest firmware on the other unit to see if the consistency remains. I did notice that the latest was a 5 minute FPGA update, and mentioned addressing sync times, so perhaps there was some progress there.
> 
> Thanks again for all yours and Patrick’s help...


Glad things are working better.

I should also point out that most of the output changes we make are to work around issues in other devices and not fix bugs in the Radiance Pro. Historically we have often been told "it works without the Radiance and so it is the Radiance." Then once we have the other device to test we are able to figure out what the other device has done wrong in their HDMI implementation and work around it.

Note I am not saying this is related to Thrang's issues since we have many Radiance Pro and Sony VW5000ES systems working in the field. However, we continue to try to work around problems in other devices, and the implication that "it works without the Radiance, so it is the Radiance" is not valid. We generally do not point fingers when we fix an issue in another device, and only say something like "improved sync time" or whatever we are working on.

One example is the missing audio interrupts in at least some audio processors I mentioned in my last post.

As another example: We have two different 18 GHz HDR TV's from the same manufacturer. The first one works with every Radiance Pro release, both 18 GHz output microcode releases, any cable we test, and any switching or output restart we do to try to trip it up. Essentially it works with everything we throw at it. Unfortunately the second, newer, TV from this same manufacturer has issues. It sometimes does not lock and is sensitive to cables used. Some days it works okay. Other days it ... well ... it just has a bad day. Then we confirm nothing is wrong elsewhere using the first TV and it works great as always.

We are currently working on resolving the issue with this second TV. Pat has found that when the Pro mutes video as part of an output restart the second TV often goes out for lunch and does not come back until an "ALT PREV" sequence completely restarts the output connection. As you can imagine the Pro muting video should not cause a TV to stop accepting video once the mute is removed. Since the Pro output chip is autonomous we do not know the exact timing of events, but I believe there is a bug in the TVs HDMI implementation that is the issue here.

Pat is working on ways to see if changing the Pro's output restart sequence concerning the video-mute can help the TV lock on every time. This should not, of course, be required work on our part, but to get this TV working we are going to have to make changes. And as always we have to be careful that fixing a bug in one TV does not then cause issues with other TVs which have less than stellar HDMI implementations.

Once we have a solution for this (assuming we can work around the issue) you can expect an update log post of something like "fixed restart issues for some TVs" or something to that effect. So, even on bug fixes it is not valid to just assume the issue resolved was in the Pro. If it is something in the Pro you might then see "fixes XYZ issue in previous release." Those are Pro software issues that crept in as a side effect of other changes that were not caught before the previous release.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> Glad things are working better.
> 
> I should also point out that most of the output changes we make are to work around issues in other devices and not fix bugs in the Radiance Pro. Historically we have often been told "it works without the Radiance and so it is the Radiance." Then once we have the other device to test we are able to figure out what the other device has done wrong in their HDMI implementation and work around it.
> 
> Note I am not saying this is related to Thrang's issues since we have many Radiance Pro and Sony VW5000ES systems working in the field. However, we continue to try to work around problems in other devices, and the implication that "it works without the Radiance, so it is the Radiance" is not valid. We generally do not point fingers when we fix an issue in another device, and only say something like "improved sync time" or whatever we are working on.
> 
> One example is the missing audio interrupts in at least some audio processors I mentioned in my last post.
> 
> As another example: We have two different 18 GHz HDR TV's from the same manufacturer. The first one works with every Radiance Pro release, both 18 GHz output microcode releases, any cable we test, and any switching or output restart we do to try to trip it up. Essentially it works with everything we throw at it. Unfortunately the second, newer, TV from this same manufacturer has issues. It sometimes does not lock and is sensitive to cables used. Some days it works okay. Other days it ... well ... it just has a bad day. Then we confirm nothing is wrong elsewhere using the first TV and it works great as always.
> 
> We are currently working on resolving the issue with this second TV. Pat has found that when the Pro mutes video as part of an output restart the second TV often goes out for lunch and does not come back until an "ALT PREV" sequence completely restarts the output connection. As you can imagine the Pro muting video should not cause a TV to stop accepting video once the mute is removed. Since the Pro output chip is autonomous we do not know the exact timing of events, but I believe there is a bug in the TVs HDMI implementation that is the issue here.
> 
> Pat is working on ways to see if changing the Pro's output restart sequence concerning the video-mute can help the TV lock on every time. This should not, of course, be required work on our part, but to get this TV working we are going to have to make changes. And as always we have to be careful that fixing a bug in one TV does not then cause issues with other TVs which have less than stellar HDMI implementations.
> 
> Once we have a solution for this (assuming we can work around the issue) you can expect an update log post of something like "fixed restart issues for some TVs" or something to that effect. So, even on bug fixes it is not valid to just assume the issue resolved was in the Pro. If it is something in the Pro you might then see "fixes XYZ issue in previous release." Those are Pro software issues that crept in as a side effect of other changes that were not caught before the previous release.


Sounds great Jim - while we may analyze the half-split troubleshooting differently on occasion, your continued help is always very much appreciated, and I'll continue to provide feedback as always to help. And perhaps the latest firmware already has improved matters - if I get though the weekend glitch free, I would say that is the case.

Thanks again as always...


----------



## Kris Deering

Just a post for anyone that may have any concerns. There have been a lot of posts going on about the Oppo tone mapping solution and the problem they are having with wide color being undersaturated when you use their tone map. I saw some people throughout the history of this ask if the same thing is a problem with the Lumagen tone mapping. I did a full set of measurements today with various solutions to see which produced the same issues and can report that the Lumagen Intensity Mapping function DOES NOT have ANY effect on color saturations for 2020. So none of the same issues, color saturations were exactly as they should be.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Just a post for anyone that may have any concerns. There have been a lot of posts going on about the Oppo tone mapping solution and the problem they are having with wide color being undersaturated when you use their tone map. I saw some people throughout the history of this ask if the same thing is a problem with the Lumagen tone mapping. I did a full set of measurements today with various solutions to see which produced the same issues and can report that the Lumagen Intensity Mapping function DOES NOT have ANY effect on color saturations for 2020. So none of the same issues, color saturations were exactly as they should be.


I believe what I'm posting is related to Sony 5000 specific processing, not any errors by the Radiance at all.


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> I believe what I'm posting is related to Sony 5000 specific processing, not any errors by the Radiance at all.


Absolutely, didn't want to imply that I was referring to your issue. Just for any Radiance owners or on the fence buyers that were concerned if the IM function would have similar problems with saturations like the Oppo tone mapping. It does not. 

How a projector deals with a SDR2020 signal coming in is a completely different issue and not the responsibility of either Lumagen or Oppo.


----------



## thrang

The scourge of almost all sets is the inability to really defeat all processing (or at least all non-essential processing) I guess its too hard to do that without breaking other processes

Even the volume control of the simplest analog stereo preamp, by its nature being in the signal chain, introduces some change.

Can one install HDMI in our skulls for direct-playback? With a locking clip of course, to facilitate freedom of movement...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Not anymore. 4k59.94 looks fine for all incoming video from my testing so far; so unless I see a problem down the line, I am a happy camper. My picture looks great and as good as ever for all incoming video and now the Radiance Pro HDMI switching is so much improved with much less issues.
> At least so far!


OK. I have an Amazon Fire HD which on "auto" for display setup puts out 4k 60 Hz for everything, even if the source is a different refresh rate, 23.94/24/30 Hz. However, I also recently got a Roku 4k which can be set to put out the native refresh rate, so for example on Netflix "The Punisher", etc it outputs 4k at I think 24 Hz (Memory?). I can clearly see the better picture having the Radiance Pro output the native refresh rate on this stuff, no so much on the 4k disc I played in the Oppo the other day.

So I have used Menu 0872 OK to set Radiance Pro to output 4k60 or 4k24 to match the native refresh rate! With Radiance Pro and Sony 5000ES, video display switching is a bit slower, not much, and all my sources, scan rates and refresh rates rock solid lock on so long as I use the Radiance Pro's "old" 18 GHz chip firmware.

Also, I am now having the Sony 5000ES "Input Lag Reduction" set to on. Although some in this thread mentioned they had talked to a Sony engineer who provided certain settings for "Reality Creation" as otherwise with lower settings or "Off" the picture wouldn't be as detailed or sharp, I am not finding this now. "Off" is what Ken Whitcomb set this to when he calibrated my video setup last December. With "Input Lag Reduction" on, "Reality Creation" disappears from the onscreen projector setup menu. With "Input Lag Reduction On", I see no adverse effect to the picture and at least in some cases a somewhat even better picture at least on DirecTV HD, and this also somewhat improves the speed of video display switching.


----------



## jrp

[EDIT] After I posted this I saw Steve beat me to the punch. I am leaving the post here, but 
it duplicates some of what Steve said.

==== 

I was talking with Steve Bruzonsky earlier today and a couple of things came up that I would like to share as I believe they affect other VW5000ES owners.

1) If you have a Sony VW5000ES, do not use the newer version of the Radiance Pro 18 GHz output microcode. The original 18 GHz output microcode works better for the VW5000ES. I have a couple people who have mentioned this now.

2) If you have the VW5000ES and updated to the new 18 GHz output microcode and want to go back to the original microcode, but the command to do so (MENU 0850) is not responding, temporarily unplug the output from the Pro going to the VW5000ES (turning the VW5000ES off my be enough), and then enter the command (with the Pro on, no buttons other then MENU 0850 need be pressed). I believe the issue with this is the Pro with the new output microcode loaded is getting so many interrupts from the interface to the VW5000ES that it is overwhelmed and cannot respond to commands. Pulling the HDMI cable eliminates the interrupts.

3) Steve mentioned a menu entry in the Sony VW5000ES that concerns using an external video processor. I think he said this is called "Lag Reduction." Sony mentions this should be enabled if you are using an external video processor (such as the Radiance Pro). This seems to eliminate internal processing such as "frame interpolation" (a good thing in my opinion), and reduce the latency in the projector.

I will leave it for Steve to comment if he wants to, but I believe he thinks the image looks better when "Lag Reduction" was enabled.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

See my comments in *bold print* below:



jrp said:


> [EDIT] After I posted this I saw Steve beat me to the punch. I am leaving the post here, but
> it duplicates some of what Steve said.
> 
> ====
> 
> I was talking with Steve Bruzonsky earlier today and a couple of things came up that I would like to share as I believe they affect other VW5000ES owners.
> 
> 1) If you have a Sony VW5000ES, do not use the newer version of the Radiance Pro 18 GHz output microcode. The original 18 GHz output microcode works better for the VW5000ES. I have a couple people who have mentioned this now.
> 
> *ABSOLUTELY. Sometimes I could get the newer version to work but then I had BIG problems, and I hit Menu and the four number codes and nothing would happen, or I hit a different input and nothing would happen. Now I understand that the new 18 GHz version was big time "interrupted" and you explain below and was not processing. I couldn't even change back to the old 18 GHz version. This was before I talked with you. What I did was reload the Ken Whitcomb Radiance Pro config from December, which had the old 18 GHz version, then I loaded my latest saved configuration which when I checked still had the old 18 GHz version, and from thereon video switching, etc works smooth as silk!*
> 
> 2) If you have the VW5000ES and updated to the new 18 GHz output microcode and want to go back to the original microcode, but the command to do so (MENU 0850) is not responding, temporarily unplug the output from the Pro going to the VW5000ES (turning the VW5000ES off my be enough), and then enter the command (with the Pro on, no buttons other then MENU 0850 need be pressed). I believe the issue with this is the Pro with the new output microcode loaded is getting so many interrupts from the interface to the VW5000ES that it is overwhelmed and cannot respond to commands. Pulling the HDMI cable eliminates the interrupts.
> 
> *YES NOW I KNOW I COULD HAVE DONE THIS INSTEAD OF WHAT I DID ABOVE!*
> 
> 3) Steve mentioned a menu entry in the Sony VW5000ES that concerns using an external video processor. I think he said this is called "Lag Reduction." Sony mentions this should be enabled if you are using an external video processor (such as the Radiance Pro). This seems to eliminate internal processing such as "frame interpolation" (a good thing in my opinion), and reduce the latency in the projector.
> 
> I will leave it for Steve to comment if he wants to, but I believe he thinks the image looks better when "Lag Reduction" was enabled.


Its "Input Lag Reduction". All I can say is I was watching the latest episode of "Strike Back", and the gal coming out of the pool in particular, her bod seems a bit more real coming out of my screen. That was enough for me! More seriously, with this feature "On", I watched some DireCTV programs and my impression is they looked as good or better than when I had this feature "Off" and used the Reality Creation settings a few folks had recommended in this thread per their discussion with Sony engineers. Ken Whitcomb had set Reality Creation to "Off" when he calibrated me
and I guess this is why.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I just joined the club today.  I got a 4240 with the 18Gbps input and output upgrade from Gordon Fraser. I have a fairly simple set up with a 1080i PVR and a Sony X800 UHD player (which gives me 4k Netflix in addition to UHD discs), being fed to a JVC X7500. 

I just installed the 030418 update and have done some basic setting up so that I'm using the same inputs and memories as with my 2041 previously (so my Harmony activities all work correctly). So far so good as this is my 4th Lumagen VP, so most of the menus seemed pretty familiar; it's the HDR/rec2020 ones that I will be scratching my head over in the near future.  

I have a HD Fury Integral which can be used as a splitter (so I can use the Lumagen with my TV as well). I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I'm hoping it'll work as the 18Gbps option means I don't have a second HDMI video output as I had with my 2041. I figure this is better than sending the output of the 4240 through my Arcam AVR (which has 2 HDMI outputs) incase of any video degradation in the AVR. 

The video delay function is nice addition too as my X7500 needs more audio delay than my TV does, so this will help to balance it up using different memories.

Of course having got it installed and set up, my OH is now watching a low bitrate SD channel on our 1080p TV.


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> See my comments in *bold print* below:
> 
> 
> 
> Its "Input Lag Reduction". All I can say is I was watching the latest episode of "Strike Back", and the gal coming out of the pool in particular, her bod seems a bit more real coming out of my screen. That was enough for me! More seriously, with this feature "On", I watched some DireCTV programs and my impression is they looked as good or better than when I had this feature "Off" and used the Reality Creation settings a few folks had recommended in this thread per their discussion with Sony engineers. Ken Whitcomb had set Reality Creation to "Off" when he calibrated me
> and I guess this is why.


Reality Creation needs to be 20/20 minimum I believe, or you are softening the image. But ultimately, its what you prefer...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> Reality Creation needs to be 20/20 minimum I believe, or you are softening the image. But ultimately, its what you prefer...


What you believe and what I see is something else entirely. I've been watching some DirecTV stuff and the picture is easily better than ever. Black level, "3D"ness of the 2D picture, lack or less grain. Watching is indisputable. I lived not using this feature for some time and using Reality Creation as someone here said per Sony engineers, and now living with this feature and no Reality Creation, and I am very satisfied using "Input Lag Reduction" with no Reality Creation. Note that I have set the Radiance Pro "Menu 0872" to output only 4k60 & 4k24!


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> What you believe and what I see is something else entirely. I've been watching some DirecTV stuff and the picture is easily better than ever. Black level, "3D"ness of the 2D picture, lack or less grain. Watching is indisputable. I lived not using this feature for some time and using Reality Creation as someone here said per Sony engineers, and now living with this feature and no Reality Creation, and I am very satisfied using "Input Lag Reduction" with no Reality Creation. Note that I have set the Radiance Pro "Menu 0872" to output only 4k60 & 4k24!


Well the belief is in how Reality Creation was designed...less than 20 will soften the image, which you may prefer - and thats perfectly fine as a personal preference. But I think others should know this distinction between the choices.


----------



## jrp

Kelvin1965S and everyone with a Harmony remote:

The Harmony database for the Lumagen remote does not have the "Input" button, last I checked.

The correct way to select an input using a programmable remote, or control system is "Input #" but there is a good way to work around the Harmony not having the "Input" button. 

The input can be selected by just pressing the input number button if there is no Radiance OSD on the screen. So what I do is send a "CLR" and then the input number. The CLR removes the OSD so the input number will select the input.

This is most important for the power up sequences. I had the issue of the input not being selected because the Power-on OSD was still displayed when I wanted to select the active source. The CLR command eliminates this issue.

==== 

Power on order can matter. I turn the Radiance Pro on first (you may have to use a different order depending on your equipment). Since many HDR sources seem to not respond to the Hotplug toggle to reread EDID, if HDR is not reported when they turn on or at least start the movie, they will never go into HDR mode. Manually enabling HDR and Rec2020 in the Pro's EDID using the Global.Video.SrcFormat menu, and turning the Pro on first overcomes this shortcoming in the players.

I also add about a 2 second delay at some point in the start up sequence after the Pro is turned on and before selecting the input.

If you have one source that is the most common selection at power on, program the Pro to automatically select that source on power on (Other.On/Off menu).


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Thanks Jim, I'll have a check of my activities as i can't remember how I did it before, but I haven't changed them from my 2041 and they seem to work OK selecting either my PVR (input #1 ) or my UHD player (input #2 ). I might have used the learning function at some point to 'teach' the Harmony the code for input. However, I'm sometimes getting a pink tinged picture when I start my PVR activity from everything being off since I got the 4240, so perhaps I need to follow your instructions and re-write my activities.

...This is why I knew I'd end up with a Pro at some point as the support is great.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> Well the belief is in how Reality Creation was designed...less than 20 will soften the image, which you may prefer - and thats perfectly fine as a personal preference. But I think others should know this distinction between the choices.


Please explain your basis for this info and the extent to which you or anyone else had difficulty with language assuming this info was obtained from Sony engineers. I am skeptical of such info from secondhard sources (I can't help it - I'm an attorney too many years)


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Please explain your basis for this info and the extent to which you or anyone else had difficulty with language assuming this info was obtained from Sony engineers. I am skeptical of such info from secondhard sources (I can't help it - I'm an attorney too many years)


Oh, you were an attorney...that explains it...

Direct conversation with Sony engineering over a year ago.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> Oh, you were an attorney...that explains it...
> 
> Direct conversation with Sony engineering over a year ago.


OK put me down and then make it seem like its a joke. That's bullying! (How do you like it?)

Just watched the 4k disc of "Wonder". Great movie. Picture quality phenomenal at least in my setup. The DirecTV and 4k discs i've watched recently
have me believing my current settings are the very best picture quality I've had.

Thrang, you've mentioned in this thread that you at times had a hard time understanding the Sony engineer due to language. Or did you ask the right questions? This is not to malign you, just to point out that what you say isn't gospel. It would be best if you had an email from the engineer so we could see that the actual advise was. I can't tell you how many times I've had folks say someone said one thing but it turned out they were at least somewhat off, even if well meaning as you are.

And I also will gladly subscribe to the HDR tonemapping that Ken Whitcomb did for me on my video setup, as my picture looks absolutely stunning with excellent 4k HDR discs and of course really nice but not as stunning with lesser quality source video.

Folks can try the settings I use and decide for themselves how they work! Let there be a caveat on my own eyes and what I see and your own hearsay and questioning of the Sony engineer and what he told you! (I can't wait for your rebuttal as I will let you get in the last words so you can feel fulfilled!)


----------



## ccool96

Steve Bruzonsky; said:


> OK put me down and then make it seem like its a joke. That's bullying! (How do you like it?)
> 
> 
> 
> Just watched the 4k disc of "Wonder". Great movie. Picture quality phenomenal at least in my setup. The DirecTV and 4k discs i've watched recently
> 
> have me believing my current settings are the very best picture quality I've had.
> 
> 
> 
> Thrang, you've mentioned in this thread that you at times had a hard time understanding the Sony engineer due to language. Or did you ask the right questions? This is not to malign you, just to point out that what you say isn't gospel. It would be best if you had an email from the engineer so we could see that the actual advise was. I can't tell you how many times I've had folks say someone said one thing but it turned out they were at least somewhat off, even if well meaning as you are.
> 
> 
> 
> And I also will gladly subscribe to the HDR tonemapping that Ken Whitcomb did for me on my video setup, as my picture looks absolutely stunning with excellent 4k HDR discs and of course really nice but not as stunning with lesser quality source video.
> 
> 
> 
> Folks can try the settings I use and decide for themselves how they work! Let there be a caveat on my own eyes and what I see and your own hearsay and questioning of the Sony engineer and what he told you! (I can't wait for your rebuttal as I will let you get in the last words so you can feel fulfilled!)




Steve,

This issue about Reality Creation and even the Sharpness control on the 5000 has been discussed at length. This has been well known info for over two years now. 

I’m pretty sure both Rob Hahn and Art told you the same thing not to long ago, after you said you had turned RC off. After comments from them, I thought you had re-engaged those features and had agreed with those finding. 

W. Mayer got the very first 5000ES, Serial #1 . His unit was hand delivered to his house by some of the top Sony engineers, who he has a personal friendship with. Mayer was the first to report these findings to the engineers and to the forum. Since then, this has been confirmed by Sony engineers to multiple 5000 owners directly. 

I’m not sure why you now find that same info Thrang is now providing so offensive. 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

ccool96 said:


> Steve,
> 
> This issue about Reality Creation and even the Sharpness control on the 5000 has been discussed at length. This has been well known info for over two years now.
> 
> I’m pretty sure both Rob Hahn and Art told you the same thing not to long ago, after you said you had turned RC off. After comments from them, I thought you had re-engaged those features and had agreed with those finding.
> 
> W. Mayer got the very first 5000ES, Serial #1 . His unit was hand delivered to his house by some of the top Sony engineers, who he has a personal friendship with. Mayer was the first to report these findings to the engineers and to the forum. Since then, this has been confirmed by Sony engineers to multiple 5000 owners directly.
> 
> I’m not sure why you now find that same info Thrang is now providing so offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I found Thrang's joke offensive! Not the discussion.

I had thought using Reality Creation was perhaps sharper. Watched that way for sometime. But my more recent tweaking and watching makes me very happy having Reality Creation off w input lag reduction on w the Radiance Pro. No question for me!


----------



## Eventidal

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I found Thrang's joke offensive! Not the discussion.
> 
> I had thought using Reality Creation was perhaps sharper. Watched that way for sometime. But my more recent tweaking and watching makes me very happy having Reality Creation off w input lag reduction on w the Radiance Pro. No question for me!


Does the same apply for the 885ES?


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> OK put me down and then make it seem like its a joke. That's bullying! (How do you like it?)
> 
> Just watched the 4k disc of "Wonder". Great movie. Picture quality phenomenal at least in my setup. The DirecTV and 4k discs i've watched recently
> have me believing my current settings are the very best picture quality I've had.
> 
> Thrang, you've mentioned in this thread that you at times had a hard time understanding the Sony engineer due to language. Or did you ask the right questions? This is not to malign you, just to point out that what you say isn't gospel. It would be best if you had an email from the engineer so we could see that the actual advise was. I can't tell you how many times I've had folks say someone said one thing but it turned out they were at least somewhat off, even if well meaning as you are.
> 
> And I also will gladly subscribe to the HDR tonemapping that Ken Whitcomb did for me on my video setup, as my picture looks absolutely stunning with excellent 4k HDR discs and of course really nice but not as stunning with lesser quality source video.
> 
> Folks can try the settings I use and decide for themselves how they work! Let there be a caveat on my own eyes and what I see and your own hearsay and questioning of the Sony engineer and what he told you! (I can't wait for your rebuttal as I will let you get in the last words so you can feel fulfilled!)


No, there was no difficulty understanding what I was being told.

Case adjourned?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> No, there was no difficulty understanding what I was being told.
> 
> Case adjourned?


You mentioned earlier that you talked to a Sony engineer and had some difficulty understanding him due to language. I guess I misunderstood you?

Also, did you inquire specifically of the engineer about using Reality Creation in combo with a Radiance Pro and also setting the input lag reduction to on? That could make a difference as opposed to most folks who do not use an external video processor/scaler with the Sony projectors.

Too bad we can't get the Sony engineers to come on the forum and answer questions, like in the early days of AVS Forum when I moderated the AVS Special Guests Forum.

Frankly, when I decided to try the input lag reduction feature again, I have been quite surprised. I was expecting not to see an overall improvement and that it was just another tweak experiment going nowhere. But at least in my system with my setup and whatever eyesight I have left I clearly prefer the picture this way!


----------



## wjchan

thrang said:


> Well the belief is in how Reality Creation was designed...less than 20 will soften the image, which you may prefer - and thats perfectly fine as a personal preference. But I think others should know this distinction between the choices.


Just got my 5000ES recently so I haven't had a chance to experiment extensively. Based on my experience with my Z9D, I believe RC on with resolution


----------



## BrolicBeast

jrp said:


> Kelvin1965S and everyone with a Harmony remote:
> 
> The Harmony database for the Lumagen remote does not have the "Input" button, last I checked.
> 
> The correct way to select an input using a programmable remote, or control system is "Input #" but there is a good way to work around the Harmony not having the "Input" button.
> 
> The input can be selected by just pressing the input number button if there is no Radiance OSD on the screen. So what I do is send a "CLR" and then the input number. The CLR removes the OSD so the input number will select the input.
> 
> This is most important for the power up sequences. I had the issue of the input not being selected because the Power-on OSD was still displayed when I wanted to select the active source. The CLR command eliminates this issue.
> 
> ====
> 
> Power on order can matter. I turn the Radiance Pro on first (you may have to use a different order depending on your equipment). Since many HDR sources seem to not respond to the Hotplug toggle to reread EDID, if HDR is not reported when they turn on or at least start the movie, they will never go into HDR mode. Manually enabling HDR and Rec2020 in the Pro's EDID using the Global.Video.SrcFormat menu, and turning the Pro on first overcomes this shortcoming in the players.
> 
> I also add about a 2 second delay at some point in the start up sequence after the Pro is turned on and before selecting the input.
> 
> If you have one source that is the most common selection at power on, program the Pro to automatically select that source on power on (Other.On/Off menu).



Hey Jim and Kelvin--I think the input option is in the Logitech database. I currently have (and have had for quite some time) "Input" mapped to the "record" button (red circle) on my Harmony Elite remote, so once I select the RadiancePro in Devices, I enter the number menu on the remote screen, hit the record button, then hit a number on the screen to get to where I want to go. I use this primarily to view my AVP's video output (I run it through Lumagen Input 4) so I can make tweaks (i.e. bass management settings in audio processor, etc.) onscreen and exit to get back to what I was doing.


But I programmed it about a year ago....maybe I did need to learn the command. It's all so hazy...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

wjchan said:


> Just got my 5000ES recently so I haven't had a chance to experiment extensively. Based on my experience with my Z9D, I believe RC on with resolution


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Is there a post/guide anywhere that explains what the functions that are available using the left arrow key while processing HDR signals? The items are 'Shape', 'Trans' in particular that I'm unsure about what they are for and what I should be looking for while adjusting them.


----------



## Mark_H

Kelvin1965S said:


> Is there a post/guide anywhere that explains what the functions that are available using the left arrow key while processing HDR signals? The items are 'Shape', 'Trans' in particular that I'm unsure about what they are for and what I should be looking for while adjusting them.


The manual covers it, as do many of the posts in the thread...


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've looked at the manual, but to be honest I'm still struggling with those two functions.

I'll have a search through this thread later as I skimmed from page 50 upto date last week before I bought it.


----------



## bobof

Kelvin1965S said:


> I've looked at the manual, but to be honest I'm still struggling with those two functions.
> 
> I'll have a search through this thread later as I skimmed from page 50 upto date last week before I bought it.


I think there is some coverage of it in the webinar handouts here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-76.html#post55266334

Around page 25


----------



## rachmat-d

Can the radiance pro pass through Apple TV 4K Dolby vision ?


----------



## bobof

Related question to the Dolby Vision question.
I'm just getting my 4242 set up so I can see how it behaves.

I have an AppleTV 4k plugged into an 18G input. Lumagen 4242 is doing intensity mapping, output REC709, I have loaded an SDR2020->SDR709 LUT (just a pure conversion LUT generated with LS for now) into the CMS. I have an HDFURY Vertex connected to the Lumagen output to downscale the 4K to 1080 (just for testing).

What I see though which I wasn't expecting:
1) Dolby Vision is enabled in the AppleTV it seems (or at least Netflix thinks so). Does that mean it thinks the Lumagen is DV capable for some reason? Is this due to EDID passthrough or something else?
2) I noticed a few times in scenes from Iron Fist (which claims DV) that the whole scene would raise or fall in luminance in a single step change.

Latest SW version.

Is the above expected?


----------



## jamesmil

bobof said:


> Related question to the Dolby Vision question.
> 
> I'm just getting my 4242 set up so I can see how it behaves.
> 
> 
> 
> I have an AppleTV 4k plugged into an 18G input. Lumagen 4242 is doing intensity mapping, output REC709, I have loaded an SDR2020->SDR709 LUT (just a pure conversion LUT generated with LS for now) into the CMS. I have an HDFURY Vertex connected to the Lumagen output to downscale the 4K to 1080 (just for testing).
> 
> 
> 
> What I see though which I wasn't expecting:
> 
> 1) Dolby Vision is enabled in the AppleTV it seems (or at least Netflix thinks so). Does that mean it thinks the Lumagen is DV capable for some reason? Is this due to EDID passthrough or something else?
> 
> 2) I noticed a few times in scenes from Iron Fist (which claims DV) that the whole scene would raise or fall in luminance in a single step change.
> 
> 
> 
> Latest SW version.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the above expected?




The Netflix client on Apple TV doesn’t differentiate between HDR and Dolby Vision in the UI - It will say Dolby Vision even if the ATV is outputting HDR.

The way to tell what output types are supported is to see what video modes are offered in the Apple TV settings.

But Dolby doesn’t support external video processors for DolbyVision today, so the Radiance can’t process it or pass it through.


----------



## alex_t

Dear.

I'm going to share my app (for windows PC) and I'm looking for testers. If you are interested for testing the app send me a private message I will explain you how to download it.

This app allows interacting a Lumagen Radiance (all model) through its RS232 port (DB9 plug or USB plug). Currently with the app you can:
- get many setup info
- set some parameters up
- drive test patterns
- interact Lighspace CMS
- set up the 21p parametric gamma
- import/export parametric gamma through XML file
- look up in menu and sub-menu with your keyboard and/or your mouse

Once I'm sure all of this works fine, I will add many other things (first one will be import/export 3DLUT through XML file)

Tested on windows 7 64b and windows 10 64b.

My intention is to share the app for free but for protecting a little bit my work, the app needs a license file. There is an user manual which explains how to proceed.

Thanks

Alexandre


----------



## bobof

jamesmil said:


> The Netflix client on Apple TV doesn’t differentiate between HDR and Dolby Vision in the UI - It will say Dolby Vision even if the ATV is outputting HDR.
> 
> The way to tell what output types are supported is to see what video modes are offered in the Apple TV settings.
> 
> But Dolby doesn’t support external video processors for DolbyVision today, so the Radiance can’t process it or pass it through.


Thanks, will check.
This just leaves the strange luminance step changes seen during Iron Fist (the only HDR title I've tried so far via appleTV). Basically you will see the whole scene jump up or down in luminance. I will try disabling intensity mapping. Also have another HDR capable Netflix player - I can see if that behaves the same.

Anyone else seen this?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

alex_t said:


> Dear.
> 
> I'm going to share my app (for windows PC) and I'm looking for testers. If you are interested for testing the app send me a private message I will explain you how to download it.
> 
> This app allows interacting a Lumagen Radiance (all model) through its RS232 port (DB9 plug or USB plug). Currently with the app you can:
> - get many setup info
> - set some parameters up
> - drive test patterns
> - interact Lighspace CMS
> - set up the 21p parametric gamma
> - import/export parametric gamma through XML file
> - look up in menu and sub-menu with your keyboard and/or your mouse
> 
> Once I'm sure all of this works fine, I will add many other things (first one will be import/export 3DLUT through XML file)
> 
> Tested on windows 7 64b and windows 10 64b.
> 
> My intention is to share the app for free but for protecting a little bit my work, the app needs a license file. There is an user manual which explains how to proceed.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alexandre


Neat. If you can use some standard format for LUT import / export this would leave the door open for people to use Argyllcms / DisplayCAL for 3D LUT creation, which I am sure would be very welcome.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Having tested AppleTV 4k Netflix this luminance jump seems fairly repeatable in certain scenes.

Eg: Iron Fist Episode 3 13mins25s onwards as she walks out of the room there is a huge jump in the scene luminance with Intensity Mapping on. With intensity mapping off you don't seem to see this.

I have the display nits set to 200.

I also have a Sony UBP-X800 - the same content on this player doesn't behave in this way. The AppleTV is outputting 422, the Sony 444 (if it matters).

Can anyone else see the same behaviour?


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Watched my first UHD film via my 4240 last night, with only the basic IM settings as recommended by Gordon Fraser and information from the training manual.  I'm waiting on getting my Chromapure V3 upgrade so I can run a full calibration later, but this still looked very promising.  I watched Sully and had my JVC X7500 set to 2.4 gamma with only a 'base' calibration in the JVC (ie _ready_ for an autocal). 

It is so much better than using the built in tone mapping function in my Sony X800: No obvious black crush, the image seemed subjectively bright enough (yet to measure of course) and I'm not using high lamp at this stage. Feeding the X7500 with 4k24 from a good source looked really sharp and of course I don't need (or have access to) any extra sharpening options when inputting 4k to the 4240, so it isn't an artificial sharpening effect. The image seemed really clean as well, which is great as noise can sometimes be a problem on the JVC.

I'm trying to use an old HD Fury Integral to split the signal out of the 4240 as I only have one HDMI output with the 18Gbs option fitted. The Fury (even after an update) was intermittent regarding sending audio to my Arcam AVR and needed me to keep flicking a switch to bring it back if I paused or changed source. As this isn't practical, I used the audio HDMI output from the 4240 instead. 

The 4240 HDMI audio output worked well, but I did notice that the Arcam wasn't displaying 'Atmos' on it's front panel: I was getting Atmos sound as it displayed 'Atmos' when I pressed the 'mode' button on the AVR, but it would change back to display '--' after a few seconds. It also behaved in a similar way with 2.0 PCM audio from a PVR. Not sure if this is an Arcam glitch or something related to the settings or data sent from the Lumagen? It's not critical as it's only a display function (I have confirmed I get Atmos sound by using a test disc), but would be nice to get to the bottom of it.

I can't wait to be able to run a full calibration with the 4240/Chromapure 3 as I know how much better it looked when I calibrated my 2041/Chromapure 2 for HD/rec709.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Hi,

Currently there is this thread, where improvements to the madVR Tone Mapping are being discussed.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...mproving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html

While watching "Life" UHD BD (4000 Nits) I wasn't really happy with IM. So I thought that I also should take a look at a sample scene with some explosions from Mad Max being discussed in the madVR thread.
I attached the resulting pictures of IM compared to a ST.2084-LUT created with LightSpace and a custom curve for my JVC projector created with the Arve tool. I know the overall brightness is slightly different.
The explosions with IM look almost monochrome red, flat and appear to have less contrast.

Also there is another point being discussed in the madVR thread. Some highlights turn blue instead of white. This also happens with IM, but not with LightSpace or Arve. Those are the last three pictures.

I wasn't able to find a combination of parameters (Max display light, Trans, Shape) to improve the result with IM. 
It almost feels like revisiting a post I made some time ago 
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-59.html#post54473761

The results of IM in the Nit-for-Nit area of the curve are great in my opinion. But I think prior to moving to dynamic tone mapping IM could still use some tweaks for the upper end of the curve. Movies with less than 2000 Nits mastering level are less affected than those above 2000 Nits. But even in Movies


----------



## Roland Janus

I'm wondering how can -4 to +4 be within a 10 stripe pattern?

-4 to +4 is nine steps, so which one is the 0?

-Roland


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I attached the resulting pictures of IM compared to a ST.2084-LUT created with LightSpace and a custom curve for my JVC projector created with the Arve tool. I know the overall brightness is slightly different.
> The explosions with IM look almost monochrome red, flat and appear to have less contrast.
> 
> Also there is another point being discussed in the madVR thread. Some highlights turn blue instead of white. This also happens with IM, but not with LightSpace or Arve. Those are the last three pictures.


I'm just getting set up with my new Lumagen Pro and found your post useful. I found the car blue highlight scene at the beginning of Mad Max Fury Road but I'm not familiar with the movie - do you have timestamps for the explosions too? I'd like to play around with them myself.

I have Lightspace HTP. For now I'd just loaded in the plain 2.4 SDR 2020 LUT for my projector and trying Intensity Mapping, but of course I see the same blue highlight issue on that car (be nice to see if this can be improved in a future version of IM). Out of interest, when you're making dedicated LUT for HDR conversion in Lightspace, how many LUTs do you have for HDR? Just one or several? I've previously hacked around with my old Lumagen 2143 doing HDR conversion in LUT so I know my way around Lightspace for that.


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> Hi,
> 
> Currently there is this thread, where improvements to the madVR Tone Mapping are being discussed.
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...mproving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html
> 
> While watching "Life" UHD BD (4000 Nits) I wasn't really happy with IM. So I thought that I also should take a look at a sample scene with some explosions from Mad Max being discussed in the madVR thread.
> I attached the resulting pictures of IM compared to a ST.2084-LUT created with LightSpace and a custom curve for my JVC projector created with the Arve tool. I know the overall brightness is slightly different.
> The explosions with IM look almost monochrome red, flat and appear to have less contrast.
> 
> Also there is another point being discussed in the madVR thread. Some highlights turn blue instead of white. This also happens with IM, but not with LightSpace or Arve. Those are the last three pictures.
> 
> I wasn't able to find a combination of parameters (Max display light, Trans, Shape) to improve the result with IM.
> It almost feels like revisiting a post I made some time ago
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-59.html#post54473761
> 
> The results of IM in the Nit-for-Nit area of the curve are great in my opinion. But I think prior to moving to dynamic tone mapping IM could still use some tweaks for the upper end of the curve. Movies with less than 2000 Nits mastering level are less affected than those above 2000 Nits. But even in Movies


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> I'm just getting set up with my new Lumagen Pro and found your post useful. I found the car blue highlight scene at the beginning of Mad Max Fury Road but I'm not familiar with the movie - do you have timestamps for the explosions too? I'd like to play around with them myself.
> 
> I have Lightspace HTP. For now I'd just loaded in the plain 2.4 SDR 2020 LUT for my projector and trying Intensity Mapping, but of course I see the same blue highlight issue on that car (be nice to see if this can be improved in a future version of IM). Out of interest, when you're making dedicated LUT for HDR conversion in Lightspace, how many LUTs do you have for HDR? Just one or several? I've previously hacked around with my old Lumagen 2143 doing HDR conversion in LUT so I know my way around Lightspace for that.


You can find plenty of those scenes between ~0:28:00 and 0:30:00. My first picture is at 0:28:29, and the second 0:28:37.
To cross-check if the blue highlights of those chome elements or the rather dull explosions are caused by a failed LUT I uploaded a plain cube without actual calibration data. The blue highlights remain even then. The same goes for the explosions. 
In the madVR thread it is suspected that the blue highlights are an enconding issue. That alone doesn't explain why they turn blue in some tone mapping solutions but not in others. 

After the changes last year I switched from LightSpace ST.2084-LUTs to IM, because I found it more flexible without the need to always connect my PC to do some changes, even though I liked some aspect of the LightSpace tone mapping better. 
Before that I had one ST.2084-LUT for 1000 nit mastered discs and one for 4000 nit mastered discs. Currently I have one CMS slot reserved for IM (PJ in low lamp mode), one slot for an ST.2084-LUT (4000 nits), one slot for some Arve curves ("UHD Rec.2020", Gamma 2.2) and one slot for IM (PJ in high lamp mode). 

I am absolutely certain that IM could be improved and it is "only" a mathematical issue.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> Having looked at Mad Max last night in this very scene I can say first hand that my results look NOTHING like your IM sample and are far more in line with what was shown with the Arve and LS examples. I think this is a setup issue on your part, not a limitation of IM.


That could certainly be the case, though I already heard from another user that for those scenes he also liked his LightSpace LUTs better than IM.
Maybe bobof can share his thoughts when he has completed his setup.

Edit:
The last time I checked my calibration for IM my Gamut looked like this


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Having looked at Mad Max last night in this very scene I can say first hand that my results look NOTHING like your IM sample and are far more in line with what was shown with the Arve and LS examples. I think this is a setup issue on your part, not a limitation of IM.


Are you referring to all the Mad Max images, or just the explosions? I've not looked at the explosions yet, but my car highlight also looks blue under IM very much like the image above, so if there is something specific which prevents that happening it would be great to know . How do you have your unit set up?


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Maybe bobof can share his thoughts when he has completed his setup.


For what it is worth I also see what is best described as a lack of yellow in the explosions in IM, which seem to come back if I create ST2084 LUT in LS. I have no idea which is "correct" though! 

I'm sure the hard border itself on the metal highlights of the car is in the encoding, as you say the more interesting thing is the colour it takes on. 

My setup is very far from complete though. At the moment I just have the Pro hacked into my lounge system with an old JVC X30 while I wait for the dedicated room to be done which will get an X7900. I used an old 17^3 profile to create the UHD2020 LUT for the basis of IM.


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> That could certainly be the case, though I already heard from another user that for those scenes he also liked his LightSpace LUTs better than IM.
> Maybe bobof can share his thoughts when he has completed his setup.
> 
> Edit:
> The last time I checked my calibration for IM my Gamut looked like this


Your gamut isn't the issue, it is the tone map. IM isn't shrinking saturation, I've already confirmed that last week when people were wondering if IM shrinks like the Oppo tone mapping does. 

I would expect different tone mapping from solution to solution though since each is doing it differently. With IM there is a LOT of variability in what can be achieved, so the values you are using for the example pictures is not ideal. 

The blue in the Mad Max clip is seen with IM regardless. I am talking about the explosions. The settings there are way off.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Are you referring to all the Mad Max images, or just the explosions? I've not looked at the explosions yet, but my car highlight also looks blue under IM very much like the image above, so if there is something specific which prevents that happening it would be great to know . How do you have your unit set up?


Again, the issue here is not gamut. IM does not hurt saturation or shrink the gamut of the projector. I don't even use the 3D LUT for 2020 since OOTB my projector's tracking is nearly spot on when measured in CalMan (JVC RS600 with BT2020 profile). What is wrong is the tone map. Since this is a completely subjective setting it would be easy to have them set wrong and get results that would not look as good as the Arve tool or other solutions. Again, I had looked at this very scene last night and it looks NOTHING like the example shown here for IM. I've compared the Arve tool MANY times to IM, including the popular curves from Javs and Manni (including custom curves created by them specifically for my setup) and every time I've found IM to work better across all the different films/clips I use for comparison (including the Mad Max scene shown above).


----------



## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> Your gamut isn't the issue, it is the tone map. IM isn't shrinking saturation, I've already confirmed that last week when people were wondering if IM shrinks like the Oppo tone mapping does.
> 
> I would expect different tone mapping from solution to solution though since each is doing it differently. With IM there is a LOT of variability in what can be achieved, so the values you are using for the example pictures is not ideal.
> 
> The blue in the Mad Max clip is seen with IM regardless. I am talking about the explosions. The settings there are way off.


OK, so these are the settings last used for 116 Nits measured peak white
Color Space: SDR2020
Display max Light: 500
Gamma to 3D LUT: SDR
Ratio: 0
Shape: 5
Trans: 12
Gamma: 0
Black: 0

My initial Setting for Shape was 7 and 14 for Trans. But that really doesn't matter as I tried numerous combinations. There is always way to little yellow visible in those explosions.

I don't think this is a sign for a shrunken Gamut. Why would yellow turn red, if the Gamut shrinks?

So in your setup you use the BT.2020 color profile of the JVC?
I use "Reference" with Gamma 2.4. And I know from Gordon Fraser that he uses a complete turned off CMS on JVCs. The LUT in my setup then converts the Gamut with DCI-P3 saturation points to BT.2020, as you can see in my chart.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Again, the issue here is not gamut. IM does not hurt saturation or shrink the gamut of the projector. I don't even use the 3D LUT for 2020 since OOTB my projector's tracking is nearly spot on when measured in CalMan (JVC RS600 with BT2020 profile). What is wrong is the tone map. Since this is a completely subjective setting it would be easy to have them set wrong and get results that would not look as good as the Arve tool or other solutions. Again, I had looked at this very scene last night and it looks NOTHING like the example shown here for IM. I've compared the Arve tool MANY times to IM, including the popular curves from Javs and Manni (including custom curves created by them specifically for my setup) and every time I've found IM to work better across all the different films/clips I use for comparison (including the Mad Max scene shown above).


Thanks for the reply Kris. It sounds like I have my setup configured a bit more like Karl than you - output is set to REC709SDR, with a LUT to map the colourspace I have available in the JVC X30 as best as possible to SDR REC2020, with IM set to SDR gamma in the LUT. In my case this setting at the moment is out of necessity due to the old PJ, but I was thinking of running like this later with the X7900 to avoid the noise from the filter banging in and out and get a bit more light. I find the levers do only a little to adjust the yellow sections. I also experimented with max light from 100-500 and I find IM looks better towards the bottom of the range to me.

As I said, I have no idea what look is "right" though for these images, I'm merely seeing a similar difference between LS dedicated LUT and IM to what the images above show. And there is, as you point out, a lot of subjectivity here. You mention is is possible (of course) to set the IM parameters "wrong" - can I ask what is your procedure for setting them "right"? 

Is your output set to SDR2020 or HDR2020? And your gamma in 3DLUT set to SDR, Auto or HDR? Could you share how you have your IM configured?

Thanks


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> I also experimented with max light from 100-500 and I find IM looks better towards the bottom of the range to me.


Can you tell your measured peak white?
What is the multiplier you used for the ST.2084-LUT?

I don't want to go below 500 Nits Display Max Light, because my image is bright enough with this.
By the way, when I increase Display Max Light, the scenes only get darker but colors stay the same.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Can you tell your measured peak white?
> What is the multiplier you used for the ST.2084-LUT?
> 
> I don't want to go below 500 Nits Display Max Light, because my image is bright enough with this.
> By the way, when I increase Display Max Light, the scenes only get darker but colors stay the same.


The profile I used for the ST2084 LUT was only I think around 65cdm2 max measured as I didn't do a new profile with aperture fully open; if I recall I set the multiplier to 3x.
My preference is for the Display Max Light to be in the 200-300 range, but my current PJ in low lamp mode with aperture fully open only reaches 80cdm2, so I guess I need different settings to have a bright enough image to be useful. Your peak white is much brighter than mine.

As I say I'm only hacking around with this quickly at the moment, hope to play some more when I have time and new room / projector.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> The profile I used for the ST2084 LUT was only I think around 65cdm2 max measured as I didn't do a new profile with aperture fully open; if I recall I set the multiplier to 3x.
> My preference is for the Display Max Light to be in the 200-300 range, but my current PJ in low lamp mode with aperture fully open only reaches 80cdm2, so I guess I need different settings to have a bright enough image to be useful. Your peak white is much brighter than mine.
> 
> As I say I'm only hacking around with this quickly at the moment, hope to play some more when I have time and new room / projector.


OK, then it makes sense to go way below 500 nits for Display Max light. 
My multiplier for a ST.2084-LUT is 5x. So it is about the same range as Display Max Light.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> OK, then it makes sense to go way below 500 nits for Display Max light.
> My multiplier for a ST.2084-LUT is 5x. So it is about the same range as Display Max Light.


I started at 5 but always found that too dark.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Looked at this more last night. Great work here guys. So I can confirm your findings. It is interesting, if you watch that scene in its entirety, the amount of "yellow flames" varies. So if I hadn't paused on exactly the same frame as you, I wouldn't have noticed this as much. But I can confirm the findings when comparing directly to the Arve curves I have loaded. 


I then spent nearly two hours on the phone with Jim as we tried to figure it out. The only way to get the yellow back in the image was to raise the white level in the Radiance menu. Jim thinks it may be a clipping issue. I know they are busy on a lot of things so not sure if or when they'll have time to work on this, but he is aware and the gears are turning in his head!


Tone mapping is tough. Without side by side comparisons it is hard to find instances like this. And for ones that I find where the Arve tool works, I find others where IM works better (obviously subjectively).


----------



## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> Looked at this more last night. Great work here guys. So I can confirm your findings. It is interesting, if you watch that scene in its entirety, the amount of "yellow flames" varies. So if I hadn't paused on exactly the same frame as you, I wouldn't have noticed this as much. But I can confirm the findings when comparing directly to the Arve curves I have loaded.
> 
> 
> I then spent nearly two hours on the phone with Jim as we tried to figure it out. The only way to get the yellow back in the image was to raise the white level in the Radiance menu. Jim thinks it may be a clipping issue. I know they are busy on a lot of things so not sure if or when they'll have time to work on this, but he is aware and the gears are turning in his head!
> 
> 
> Tone mapping is tough. Without side by side comparisons it is hard to find instances like this. And for ones that I find where the Arve tool works, I find others where IM works better (obviously subjectively).


Yes Kris, it is a little bit tricky to find, even more if you don't pause playback at the right moment. 
After your comments I was beginning to question my sanity.  But thanks for confirming it and contacting Jim!

I don't know if it is helpful for IM. But this is how it seems to be handled by madVR:


> Basically I'm converting YCbCr to RGB, then I'm simply hard clipping every RGB value outside of 16-235 to 16-235.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...dr-sdr-mapping-projector-10.html#post55928826


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes Kris, it is a little bit tricky to find, even more if you don't pause playback at the right moment.
> After your comments I was beginning to question my sanity.  But thanks for confirming it and contacting Jim!
> 
> I don't know if it is helpful for IM. But this is how it seems to be handled by madVR:
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...dr-sdr-mapping-projector-10.html#post55928826



So it sounds like Madshi is in the same wheelhouse as Jim, that the way IM is handling it is CORRECT. We looked at the raw data last night and Jim was saying nearly every single thing that Madshi says in that thread about how having yellow in that scene makes no sense based on the input values. It is because the Arve tool is doing something illegal that you get the result you see (which I agree subjectively looks better, whether it is right or wrong). But it does bring up the same issue Madshi mentioned and Jim mentioned last night, do you want to actually do the WRONG thing for colors simply so this ONE scene can look subjectively better. And what happens when that implementation ends up making other scenes look bad because of it?


----------



## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> So it sounds like Madshi is in the same wheelhouse as Jim, that the way IM is handling it is CORRECT. We looked at the raw data last night and Jim was saying nearly every single thing that Madshi says in that thread about how having yellow in that scene makes no sense based on the input values. It is because the Arve tool is doing something illegal that you get the result you see (which I agree subjectively looks better, whether it is right or wrong). But it does bring up the same issue Madshi mentioned and Jim mentioned last night, do you want to actually do the WRONG thing for colors simply so this ONE scene can look subjectively better. And what happens when that implementation ends up making other scenes look bad because of it?


Yes, madshi seems to be in a similar position. But if I remember it correctly, the main issue with madVR was desaturation. He and Jim certainly have valid points with the scientific approach. 
But unless someone in the industry says clearly how it is supposed to look like or how the tools used to master it are working, this will always be a guessing game. 

I just watched the scenes on my Samsung KS7090 without Radiance or other tools involved. The result is similar to LightSpace ST.2084 or an Arve curve.


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, madshi seems to be in a similar position. But if I remember it correctly, the main issue with madVR was desaturation. He and Jim certainly have valid points with the scientific approach.
> But unless someone in the industry says clearly how it is supposed to look like or how the tools used to master it are working, this will always be a guessing game.
> 
> I just watched the scenes on my Samsung KS7090 without Radiance or other tools involved. The result is similar to LightSpace ST.2084 or an Arve curve.


But there is no guess here. As Madshi clearly points out in the thread, while it may have looked like that for the person mastering, it would only look that way if the display had improper tone mapping, which definitely could be the case. I think a lot of people always assume that the powers that be know what is right or wrong, but the more I've been around "experts" and industry types, the more I find that is not always the case. 


The problem here though lies in the fact that this movie (Mad Max) was mastered on a Pulsar, so tone mapping should never have been done in the first place, BUT, a lot of the data on the disc indicates levels that would have exceeded that monitor AND are illegal in just about every case. MadVR and the Lumagen IM convert the levels to LEGAL liner light levels, whereas other solutions are using ILLEGAL levels that should never be there in the first place (again, because the tone mapping is doing things VERY wrong, as Madshi points out). In this very particular case it gives subjectively more pleasing results (for a scene that last about a minute overall) but at the expense of how much with other titles? 


Ultimately it looks like I was right when I talked to Jim about all this last night, Mad Max is a horrible film to use for evaluation of tone mapping as it CLEARLY has authoring issues that wreak havoc. I also think it is a bad one because ultimately all these solutions are being played around with for "subjective" opinions on what looks better than the other since there is no standard and this is a film that is so heavy handed in post production color work that trying to determine what looks right is nearly impossible!


----------



## KarlKlammer

With IM, LightSpace and Arve I now have three tone mapping solutions at hand. I don't question color science in general. But as a consumer, I have to say that I'm going to use the solution that looks best to me. And currently in this case or with other movies with MaxCLL >4000 nits it is likely not going to be IM.


----------



## Ian_Currie

KarlKlammer said:


> With IM, LightSpace and Arve I now have three tone mapping solutions at hand. I don't question color science in general. But as a consumer, I have to say that I'm going to use the solution that looks best to me. And currently in this case or with other movies with MaxCLL >4000 nits it is likely not going to be IM.


I agree. I'm using a combination of techniques to get the best picture quality. My preference is to NOT convert HDR2020 to SDR2020 but to stay in HDR2020 mode. When I convert I get lots of blotchy effects (easily visible on faces) that no amount of adjusting shape and trans can fix without compromising the picture in other areas) or loss of color saturation (a look that is more SDR than HDR) .

In my case, I alternate between a couple Arve curves ... or the HDR gamma on my JVC combined with Lumagen IM that does not convert to SDR. Depending on the movie I may go to high laser (i.e. highest light output) but the results are spectacular. 

I wish there was more control over the IM when staying in HDR2020 mode but obviously IM wasn't intended to be used this way.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Since it was established that Mad Max is a bad movie to evaluate tone mapping, originally "Life" (6414 nits MaxCLL) was the reason I started comparing IM to other tone mapping solutions again. These are two pictures of IM and LightSpace. 
I know what my projector is capable of regarding contrast. And because of that I have a hard time when the image seems to lack contrast. I wasn't able to find settings that reduced the general "fog" without compromising other aspects of the image.


----------



## Ian_Currie

KarlKlammer said:


> Since it was established that Mad Max is a bad movie to evaluate tone mapping, originally "Life" (6414 nits MaxCLL) was the reason I started comparing IM to other tone mapping solutions again. These are two pictures of IM and LightSpace.
> I know what my projector is capable of regarding contrast. And because of that I have a hard time when the image seems to lack contrast. I wasn't able to find settings that reduced the general "fog" without compromising other aspects of the image.


Good example, thanks for sharing.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Since it was established that Mad Max is a bad movie to evaluate tone mapping, originally "Life" (6414 nits MaxCLL) was the reason I started comparing IM to other tone mapping solutions again. These are two pictures of IM and LightSpace.
> I know what my projector is capable of regarding contrast. And because of that I have a hard time when the image seems to lack contrast. I wasn't able to find settings that reduced the general "fog" without compromising other aspects of the image.


It is a really difficult one though isn't it as you could equally look at the LS image and say that in the shadow regions it seems some of the detail is starting to be crushed.

I think that whether or not the Mad Max yellow explosions are right or wrong, it would be nice to at least have IM levers to be able to pull to get to a similar point to what the LS/ Arve examples end up.

But whatever you think of the individual images and right vs wrong, better vs worse, contrast vs shadows, to me it absolutely reaffirms how important it is to be able to make these kind of adjustments and just how glad I am that I decided to go down the Radiance route again with HDR. MadVR isn't a good option for me as much of the content I watch is streamed via boxes with no HDR controls at all. 

It is also great that we're able to have sensible conversation about them here - I'm sure it can only get better 

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## westmd

A need a bit of help from the community here. I was going for a Lumagen Pro and was about to order one when I got some budget cuts due to renovations that needs to be doing in the housr. This also means less time and as I am a complete color calibration newbie I would most likely have to invest a lot of time to calibrate the Lumagen. So in the end I got a direct calibration for my JVC X7000 and am more then happy with the result.
In the meantime I got an offer for a trade-in Lumagen Pro for quite a good price. As restrictions still apply (time/money) I would go without software/probe and just go with the Lumagen for scaling and HDR intensity mapping (I currently use the Oppo 203 for that).
Do you think it is worth getting the Lumagen for this purposes and will especially Intensity mapping be as good without creation of a calibration 3D LUT?
Thanks for your advice


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> It is a really difficult one though isn't it as you could equally look at the LS image and say that in the shadow regions it seems some of the detail is starting to be crushed.


Yes, and this is a point where I like the flexibility of IM. With a few adjustments you can get every shadow detail that is there. Some shadow details might be missing because I had the same aperture and exposure time on both pictures (focused on the brighter parts). Even with Arve you don't miss shadow details. But I haven't found a solution with LS yet. If you start to use the Radiance Gamma-EQ you can easily run into banding or colour shifts.



> I think that whether or not the Mad Max yellow explosions are right or wrong, it would be nice to at least have IM levers to be able to pull to get to a similar point to what the LS/ Arve examples end up.
> 
> But whatever you think of the individual images and right vs wrong, better vs worse, contrast vs shadows, to me it absolutely reaffirms how important it is to be able to make these kind of adjustments and just how glad I am that I decided to go down the Radiance route again with HDR. MadVR isn't a good option for me as much of the content I watch is streamed via boxes with no HDR controls at all.
> 
> It is also great that we're able to have sensible conversation about them here - I'm sure it can only get better


After pointing out differences between IM and LS last year and using The Magnificent Seven as an example, the changes made definitely improved the result. But there are still moments when I wish IM would be better.
It is not my intention to endlessly complain about IM or the Radiance. I only want to point out that there is still room for improvement and hope it would be made. I really don't regret having bought the Radiance. For me madVR also isn't an option. Apart from the fact that it isn't a plug-in-videoprocessor for serveral sources, I don't want to rely on a PC with Windows for a relaxed evening in my home cinema.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Has anybody ever wondered, what it would be like to be able to connect to the Radiance via (wireless) network instead of RS232/USB?
So, there are those things called "Serial Device Servers". I just got one from MOXA with two ports:
https://www.moxa.com/product/NPort_5200A.htm

I made some quick tests with my laptop only connected to wifi and the i1 Display Pro:
- downloading the configuration with the Config-Tool -> OK
- manually selecting Patches in LightSpace -> OK
- LightSpace Quick Profiles -> OK
- LightSpace LUT upload -> OK
- Chromapure with connection to the Radiance as pattern generator -> OK
- Radiance-GUI by Alex_t (extremely helpful tool by the way!) -> OK
- firmware upload -> OK

So far it looks very promising. I expected more problems with my first tests. But long-term stability has still to be proved.

Edit:
- LightSpace Characterization (17^3 cube with drift compensation every 30 patches, 79 minutes duration) -> OK


----------



## alex_t

KarlKlammer said:


> Has anybody ever wondered, what it would be like to be able to connect to the Radiance via (wireless) network instead of RS232/USB?
> So, there are those things called "Serial Device Servers". I just got one from MOXA with two ports:
> https://www.moxa.com/product/NPort_5200A.htm
> 
> I made some quick tests with my laptop only connected to wifi and the i1 Display Pro:
> - downloading the configuration with the Config-Tool -> OK
> - manually selecting Patches in LightSpace -> OK
> - LightSpace Quick Profiles -> OK
> - LightSpace LUT upload -> OK
> - Chromapure with connection to the Radiance as pattern generator -> OK
> - Radiance-GUI by Alex_t (extremely helpful tool by the way!) -> OK
> - firmware upload -> OK
> 
> So far it looks very promising. I expected more problems with my first tests. But long-term stability has still to be proved.


Hello.

Yes I have already wondered if such solution would work, thank you for your return of experience.

Actually I would like to add in Radiance-GUI the possibility to set up HDR intensity mapping (shape, transition, gamma, black) according to a data base built with users's experience. For example, Radiance GUI would allow to select a film in this data base and Radiance-GUI would inject the IM settings. Of course those settings depend of Max display light value but I believe this feature could be helpful for users as starting point to fine tune IM.

Radiance-GUI would be also used for collecting statistics and other useful information about HDR and the film watched with the possibility to send automatically those information to me for feeding the data base.

With this HW solution, connecting Radiance-GUI to Radiance becomes handier and this kind of feature would make sense.


----------



## KarlKlammer

alex_t said:


> Actually I would like to add in Radiance-GUI the possibility to set up HDR intensity mapping (shape, transition, gamma, black) according to a data base built with users's experience. For example, Radiance GUI would allow to select a film in this data base and Radiance-GUI would inject the IM settings. Of course those settings depend of Max display light value but I believe this feature could be helpful for users as starting point to fine tune IM.
> 
> Radiance-GUI would be also used for collecting statistics and other useful information about HDR and the film watched with the possibility to send automatically those information to me for feeding the data base.
> 
> With this HW solution, connecting Radiance-GUI to Radiance becomes handier and this kind of feature would make sense.


Taking a Serial Device Server and Radiance-GUI as base for automation sounds like a really good idea. 
Although my IM parameters for ratio, shape and transition are pretty static. But I think it would be very interesting if it is possible to inject overrides for maxCLL (menu 0533). When I'm not using the profiler I take the information from this list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...u4UI_yp7sxOVPIccob6fRe85_A/edit#gid=184653968


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> updated...
> 
> 
> *Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
> Press Menu then...
> 
> 0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)


Add 0997 to save to backup config location?


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## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
Press Menu then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler" 
Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0910 - service mode
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0997 to save to backup config location
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

Edits based on posts by: jrp, colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, bobof, et alia


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 032118*

*Beta 032118*
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved). 
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p. 
Added DSD (SACD) audio capability. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## scrowe

Mike_WI said:


> *Beta 032118*
> Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
> Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p.
> Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


This seems to have broken Audio on mine, using 18GHz output card (new firmware) into a Yamaha RX-3050 Receiver.

Will revert and retry.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk


----------



## scrowe

scrowe said:


> This seems to have broken Audio on mine, using 18GHz output card (new firmware) into a Yamaha RX-3050 Receiver.
> 
> Will revert and retry.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk


False alarm. Needed a hard power-cycle though.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk


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## bobof

I've lost audio on mine too. Strange.


----------



## cappy1

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Although some in this thread mentioned they had talked to a Sony engineer who provided certain settings for "Reality Creation" as otherwise with lower settings or "Off" the picture wouldn't be as detailed or sharp, I am not finding this now.





Eventidal said:


> Does the same apply for the 885ES?


Not to stir pot again, but here is quote from recent Sound and Vision review of the Sony VW885ES regarding Reality Creation:

"_The VW885ES exhibits some of the same processing artifacts that I reported in my review of the VW1100ES and have seen on all Sony 4K projectors I've reviewed. This is associated with Sony's choice to turn on sub-pixel convergence to assist in dialing in the projector convergence before it leaves the factory. It remains on by default when the projector reaches the consumer and is undefeatable except in the service menus. Interference artifacts from this processing are always visible when viewing single-pixel 4K test patterns (typically as swaths of color across the screen, as if someone spilled watercolors on it), including full-field grayscale patterns up to about 45 percent white. The processing prevents the projector from performing true 1:1 pixel mapping to achieve the sharpest possible image and is one of the principal reasons why Sony's Reality Creation enhancements are needed to compensate and bring back a bit of sharpness—though Sony's position is that the processing improves image clarity and that the image would suffer if this was turned off_".


----------



## Mike_WI

*Audio issues with 032118 FW beta*



scrowe said:


> This seems to have broken Audio on mine, using 18GHz output card (new firmware) into a Yamaha RX-3050 Receiver.
> 
> Will revert and retry.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk





scrowe said:


> False alarm. Needed a hard power-cycle though.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk





bobof said:


> I've lost audio on mine too. Strange.


What was your 18GHz card toggle status (for troubleshooting)...?

*0850 - switch to original firmware*
 command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
*0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware*
 command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent


I was going to update tonight, but will hold off for now.

Mike


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> What was your 18GHz card toggle status (for troubleshooting)...?
> 
> I was going to update tonight, but will hold off for now.


Neither made any difference to me if I remember correct nor did powercycle. In any case, support responded very quick indeed and have issued a new update (though download link is broken at the mo and it is past my bedtime, so not tested it!).


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 032218*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 032218*
(replaced 032118 which gave no audio on out1) 
Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved). 
Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p. 
Added DSD (SACD) audio capability. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

In the “I should have tried that” category, I need to thank Jon Thompson in the UK for trying “reduced blanking” for 18 GHz output timing from the Radiance Pro to the Sony VW5000ES. We have suspected that some VW5000’s are not as good as others at 18 GHz, and specifically early units.

We have had issues in the past with non-standard timings, but Jon’s testing shows reduced blanking works with the VW5000ES, and dramatically improves the lock-on capability of VW5000ES projector by running slightly less than 18 GHz (reduces 17.8 GHz standard 4k59.94 rate to 16.9 GHz). 

There are now three early VW5000ES’s in the field working with the slightly reduced output clock rate. All three have issues with the standard 4k59.94 timing. For one of these, the dealer even tried the new 18 GHz microcode which in the past has not worked well with the VW5000ES, and with the reduced blanking the new microcode works with his VW5000ES.

I want to note that reduced timing will work with some (most?) other 18 GHz TVs and projectors, but not all since we have had issues in the past trying reduced blanking. While the Sony VW5000ES, and two different LG TVs we have here, seem to accept any timing, the Sony HDR TV we have in the lab will only lock on standard timing (not an issue since it works well at 18 GHz).

Reduced blanking timing *may* reduce the lock time on projectors and TVs, since it reduces the frequency the projector needs to capture. For example, I believe projectors that lock on well at 18 GHz, such as the Sony VW885ES, should see improvement in their lock-on time with reduced blanking.

We are going to add menu and direct commands for “reduced blanking” for 4k50 and 4k60. This affects only 4k50 and 4k60 outputs, but can be used to reduce the output clock rate with either 9 GHz or 18 GHz output cards. The reduced blanking should be in a new release in a couple of days.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Has anybody ever wondered, what it would be like to be able to connect to the Radiance via (wireless) network instead of RS232/USB?
> So, there are those things called "Serial Device Servers". I just got one from MOXA with two ports:
> https://www.moxa.com/product/NPort_5200A.htm
> ...
> 
> So far it looks very promising. I expected more problems with my first tests. But long-term stability has still to be proved.


Very nice. We appreciate you sharing this information.

I actually bought a LAN to RS232 adapter a month ago but have not had a chance to test it with the Radiance Pro yet. If you have information we can share with others on details for setup and use, it would be great if you could email us at [email protected].


----------



## ddgdl

jrp, any thoughts about the discovery in the madshi improvement thread, which Kris Deering said he communicated to you over the phone, about the hue shifts caused by tone mapping "illegal" colors in the masters of some movies, like mad max? Any plans for lumagen to address that somehow? I know madshi and others are still trying to figure out how best to deal with that. Curious as to your thoughts.


----------



## mikigio

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 032218*
> (replaced 032118 which gave no audio on out1)
> Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
> Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p. Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware




Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

I have *Lg Oled E6*

Now everything works correctly (now I do not have a black screen on the different inputs, now also the pattern generator works well in addition to Blu ray, Sky, Apple tv etc ...), now I'm really happy.

I realize and I am aware of the fact that it should not be easy to follow the matching problems related to the different brands of TV and VPR, thanks again for having dealt with the problem.


----------



## jrp

ddgdl said:


> jrp, any thoughts about the discovery in the madshi improvement thread, which Kris Deering said he communicated to you over the phone, about the hue shifts caused by tone mapping "illegal" colors in the masters of some movies, like mad max? Any plans for lumagen to address that somehow? I know madshi and others are still trying to figure out how best to deal with that. Curious as to your thoughts.


Yes, quite a few thoughts. I have held off. I wanted to gather data, which I have done, and then spend some time writing my response. Instead, here is the off the cuff version.

The Pro HDR IM output colors for the Mad Max sand storm explosions are correct based on the pixel data. The explosions are mostly burnt orange with some yellow, not the other way round. The data does not overflow the Pro HDR IM as we initially considered possible. A 1D LUT as used for the ARVE tool cannot process the Tone Mapping correctly since each color is independent and so color balance between R, G, and B will change when they are not supposed to, as in the explosion scene. I initially looked at a 1D LUT approach for IM and immediately tossed it as mathematically incorrect. Took all of 5 minutes to decide this.

NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the ARVE tool. It uses the hardware available in the projector (a 1D LUT) and does a pretty good job with what is available.

The term "illegal colors" is too strong. Rather colors should be "Protected for RGB" in the editing stage. This has been standard practice for many years. Not doing so means the colors change as one primary clips first due to how the color space conversion calculation works. Having YCbCr values that cause clipping in RGB is a big issue, but it is not an issue in the Mad Max sand storm scene (at least not for the Pro IM).

Saying one wants the explosions to look yellow when they are mostly burnt orange is like saying I want my grass to be pink. Maybe so, but no good way to make an exception in the math that does not also screw up other colors too. And you would of course be seeing the wrong color for grass. Does not make sense. Reminds me of people liking their whites to be blue because they got used to TVs in "torch mode."

Interesting side note: I checked the color verses temperature of a propane explosion. Going from hot to hotter you have yellow, then orange, and then red. So, the central part of the explosion being hotter should be burnt orange or orange, with the fingers of the explosion cooling to orange and yellow. In my opinion this is how it looks with the Radiance Pro HDR IM, and this matches the data on the disc.

I would be interested in seeing the sand storm scene on the Pulsar monitor it was edited on to confirm all this, but I am convinced it would confirm the Pro IM rendition of color.

There, I have created my own sandstorm.


----------



## ddgdl

jrp said:


> Yes, quite a few thoughts. I have held off. I wanted to gather data, which I have done, and then spend some time writing my response. Instead, here is the off the cuff version.
> 
> The Pro HDR IM output colors for the Mad Max sand storm explosions are correct based on the pixel data. The explosions are mostly burnt orange with some yellow, not the other way round. The data does not overflow the Pro HDR IM as we initially considered possible. A 1D LUT as used for the ARVE tool cannot process the Tone Mapping correctly since each color is independent and so color balance between R, G, and B will change when they are not supposed to, as in the explosion scene. I initially looked at a 1D LUT approach for IM and immediately tossed it as mathematically incorrect. Took all of 5 minutes to decide this.
> 
> NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the ARVE tool. It uses the hardware available in the projector (a 1D LUT) and does a pretty good job with what is available.
> 
> The term "illegal colors" is too strong. Rather colors should be "Protected for RGB" in the editing stage. This has been standard practice for many years. Not doing so means the colors change as one primary clips first due to how the color space conversion calculation works. Having YCbCr values that cause clipping in RGB is a big issue, but it is not an issue in the Mad Max sand storm scene (at least not for the Pro IM).
> 
> Saying one wants the explosions to look yellow when they are mostly burnt orange is like saying I want my grass to be pink. Maybe so, but no good way to make an exception in the math that does not also screw up other colors too. And you would of course be seeing the wrong color for grass. Does not make sense. Reminds me of people liking their whites to be blue because they got used to TVs in "torch mode."
> 
> Interesting side note: I checked the color verses temperature of a propane explosion. Going from hot to hotter you have yellow, then orange, and then red. So, the central part of the explosion being hotter should be burnt orange or orange, with the fingers of the explosion cooling to orange and yellow. In my opinion this is how it looks with the Radiance Pro HDR IM, and this matches the data on the disc.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing the sand storm scene on the Pulsar monitor it was edited on to confirm all this, but I am convinced it would confirm the Pro IM rendition of color.
> 
> There, I have created my own sandstorm.



I didn't mean to force you into an off the cuff response- I was just curious as to whether you were intending to respond (or whether any changes to the Pro's IM were going to be made in light of the discovery)


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> Yes, quite a few thoughts. I have held off. I wanted to gather data, which I have done, and then spend some time writing my response. Instead, here is the off the cuff version.
> 
> The Pro HDR IM output colors for the Mad Max sand storm explosions are correct based on the pixel data. The explosions are mostly burnt orange with some yellow, not the other way round. The data does not overflow the Pro HDR IM as we initially considered possible. A 1D LUT as used for the ARVE tool cannot process the Tone Mapping correctly since each color is independent and so color balance between R, G, and B will change when they are not supposed to, as in the explosion scene. I initially looked at a 1D LUT approach for IM and immediately tossed it as mathematically incorrect. Took all of 5 minutes to decide this.
> 
> NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the ARVE tool. It uses the hardware available in the projector (a 1D LUT) and does a pretty good job with what is available.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Does this also explain why Arve/LightSpace seem to be producing a more contrasty looking image?

(below a part of one of the Mad Max screenshots I posted earlier and also visible in my "Life" screenshots)

PS: I sent some information regarding the setup of my Serial Device Server to [email protected]


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 032218*
> (replaced 032118 which gave no audio on out1)
> Improved handling on 18Ghz video/audio outputs (problems seen here with video to newer LG tv and audio to older Sony AVR were solved).
> Fix for genlock with "normal" setting when taking 4k in and going out as 1080p. Added DSD (SACD) audio capability.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Audio is back, yay!


----------



## SJHT

Wow, finally got DSD after all of the years! Need to try this. Not sure this has ever been part of the Radiance line, but could be wrong. Next might be PIP!


----------



## scrowe

Yes, looks like I must have switched HDMI audio cable from 1 to 3 and left it there, before rebooting. I was puzzled when I saw it was after all an actual firmware issue, but can see my HDMI is in 3 instead of the usual 1. So will reflash later and put it back in 1.

Sent from my Lenovo YT-X703F using Tapatalk


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## Mike_WI

I love the continued improvements from Lumagen.
May be even more relevant in a post-Oppo UHD world.

Mike


----------



## jrp

ddgdl said:


> I didn't mean to force you into an off the cuff response- I was just curious as to whether you were intending to respond (or whether any changes to the Pro's IM were going to be made in light of the discovery)


No worries at all. Certainly a valid question to ask.

I had been meaning to respond, and I was able to spend less time on the response by winging it.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jim.
> 
> Does this also explain why Arve/LightSpace seem to be producing a more contrasty looking image?
> 
> (below a part of one of the Mad Max screenshots I posted earlier and also visible in my "Life" screenshots)
> 
> PS: I sent some information regarding the setup of my Serial Device Server to [email protected]


Both ARVE and Lightspace are using the 1D LUT (Lightspace also gets some help from the Pro's 3D LUT) for their Tone Mapping. This explains the color shift they have since in the Sand Storm scene Red is brighter and is (apparently) getting clipped changing the Burnt orange to more of a yellow. Also since they use fixed transfer functions they do not respond to changes to MaxCLL. So depending on how you program the roll-off for higher intensity you would see changes to color and "pop."

I am not sure why the contrast is different other than perhaps that we choose to "match nit for nit" in the lower intensities. The Pro tries to maintain the correct Gamma for the image, but this might not be as much "pop" as you want to see. Said another way the Pro HDR IM transfer function attempts to match what the camera would see for the real image, to the best ability of the TV/projector. This does entail trade-offs. No way to show a 10000 nit image on a 100 nit projector without making some kind of trade-offs.

For myself I like a higher Gamma even for SDR as I think it gives the "bit more pop" you also seek. So if you want more "contrasty" you can play with the Gamma parameter in the Pro IM parameter menu, or calibrate to a higher Gamma than our recommend 2.4 for "outputting HDR in a SDR container." I think this will get you where you want to be.

One other comment: More "contrasty" does not necessarily equate to "more realistic," but rather can be another case of "I like it better that way." Nothing wrong with that, and tweaking Gamma is a more reasonable change verses changing colors like in the sand storm explosion.

p.s. Thanks for sending the info on the LAN to RS-232.


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> Both ARVE and Lightspace are using the 1D LUT (Lightspace also gets some help from the Pro's 3D LUT) for their Tone Mapping. This explains the color shift they have since in the Sand Storm scene Red is brighter and is (apparently) getting clipped changing the Burnt orange to more of a yellow. Also since they use fixed transfer functions they do not respond to changes to MaxCLL. So depending on how you program the roll-off for higher intensity you would see changes to color and "pop."
> 
> I am not sure why the contrast is different other than perhaps that we choose to "match nit for nit" in the lower intensities. The Pro tries to maintain the correct Gamma for the image, but this might not be as much "pop" as you want to see. Said another way the Pro HDR IM transfer function attempts to match what the camera would see for the real image, to the best ability of the TV/projector. This does entail trade-offs. No way to show a 10000 nit image on a 100 nit projector without making some kind of trade-offs.
> 
> For myself I like a higher Gamma even for SDR as I think it gives the "bit more pop" you also seek. So if you want more "contrasty" you can play with the Gamma parameter in the Pro IM parameter menu, or calibrate to a higher Gamma than our recommend 2.4 for "outputting HDR in a SDR container." I think this will get you where you want to be.
> 
> One other comment: More "contrasty" does not necessarily equate to "more realistic," but rather can be another case of "I like it better that way." Nothing wrong with that, and tweaking Gamma is a more reasonable change verses changing colors like in the sand storm explosion.


Thank you again for taking time to answer my question.

When I measured the 1D LUT in the past, the nit-for-nit range wasn't different to LightSpace (or Arve). 
Another experience is that this "contrast issue" doesn't occur with movies mastered at 1000 Nits/maxCLL 2000 Nits maxCLL. And therefore those titles like Mad Max, Life or Magnificent Seven stand out slightly. My parameters for those movies ran through two stages. The first stage was to get the 1D LUT as close to LightSpace/Arve as possible. That meant a low setting for Shape and a high setting for Transition. But I found out that with those settings clipping was far to soon. Then I increased Shape and decreased Transition. But the downside of a correct clipping point was a subjective loss of contrast as could be seen in my "Life" screenshots.

I made some tests with the gamma parameter yesterday. To get a subjectively better contrast I set Shape to 2, Transition to 14 and Gamma to 8. But the trade-off is less overall image brightness and loss of shadow detail. And I have yet to check the 1D chart and clipping.

A last comment from me on color/clipping in Mad Max
Regardless which color is correct in those explosions, the way IM reproduces them, there are areas completely without structure, just a single color with a single brightness and hue. That takes away some image detail and depth compared with LightSpace/Arve. 

Due to the discussion in the madVR thread and here, we now have at least a better understanding of the up- and downsides of the various tone mapping aproaches. As our displays/projectors have limited capabilites we have to decide, which solution works best for us. But I also think a comparison should be allowed to do.  Maybe that way we find a point that really helps to improve a certain tone mapping approach.


----------



## Roland Janus

anything planned on the auto-aspect feature?

I usually use HDMI+image but the credits often trigger the wrong aspect.

Also any plans of switching much faster, it would be very useful in particular for Nolan movies (I hate that).

How about a customizable value in seconds on how fast it would detect changes?

-roland


----------



## Craig Peer

I've been using a Radiance Pro for a couple of weeks now, to scale movies to 4096 x 2160 on my JVC RS4500, with my Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. Really impressed with the Pro. The scaling is outstanding, and while 4K Blu-rays look stunning, the improvement with U Verse HDTV has really been even more noticeable. That's my worst video source, and it's much cleaner looking. Plus, the video delay feature finally fixed the lip sync issue I had with U Verse. I'm very pleased so far !


----------



## Dirk44

Roland Janus said:


> anything planned on the auto-aspect feature?
> 
> I usually use HDMI+image but the credits often trigger the wrong aspect.
> 
> Also any plans of switching much faster, it would be very useful in particular for Nolan movies (I hate that).
> 
> How about a customizable value in seconds on how fast it would detect changes?
> 
> -roland


I've been asking for this 2 times before, no reaction so far, I know theres a lot to do, to make this good unit better, Tone Mapping etc.

But I hope to take an eyes on this in the near future

Than you in advance


----------



## Mike_WI

Dirk44 said:


> I've been asking for this 2 times before, no reaction so far, I know theres a lot to do, to make this good unit better, Tone Mapping etc.
> 
> But I hope to take an eyes on this in the near future
> 
> Than you in advance


If you go to an audio (& video) show and look at the rack of gear, you can often find a Lumagen in the video rack.
Eg - JTR rack at AXPONA


Mike


----------



## Ian_Currie

KarlKlammer said:


> Thank you again for taking time to answer my question.
> 
> When I measured the 1D LUT in the past, the nit-for-nit range wasn't different to LightSpace (or Arve).
> Another experience is that this "contrast issue" doesn't occur with movies mastered at 1000 Nits/maxCLL 2000 Nits maxCLL. And therefore those titles like Mad Max, Life or Magnificent Seven stand out slightly. My parameters for those movies ran through two stages. The first stage was to get the 1D LUT as close to LightSpace/Arve as possible. That meant a low setting for Shape and a high setting for Transition. But I found out that with those settings clipping was far to soon. Then I increased Shape and decreased Transition. But the downside of a correct clipping point was a subjective loss of contrast as could be seen in my "Life" screenshots.
> 
> I made some tests with the gamma parameter yesterday. To get a subjectively better contrast I set Shape to 2, Transition to 14 and Gamma to 8. But the trade-off is less overall image brightness and loss of shadow detail. And I have yet to check the 1D chart and clipping.
> 
> A last comment from me on color/clipping in Mad Max
> Regardless which color is correct in those explosions, the way IM reproduces them, there are areas completely without structure, just a single color with a single brightness and hue. That takes away some image detail and depth compared with LightSpace/Arve.
> 
> Due to the discussion in the madVR thread and here, we now have at least a better understanding of the up- and downsides of the various tone mapping aproaches. As our displays/projectors have limited capabilites we have to decide, which solution works best for us. But I also think a comparison should be allowed to do.  Maybe that way we find a point that really helps to improve a certain tone mapping approach.



I want to echo these concerns as I cannot get the Pro's IM to look good on 4000 titles. I have just about every title released and no longer use the Pro to convert to SDR2020 on these titles. Sony titles (e.g. A Few Good Men) result in obvious image flaws (yellowish/white blotches on faces, blown out highlights that I cannot fix) or a 'haze' on the image that dilutes the contrast. 

Like several owners of the Sony 5000 I can successfully employ the Pro's IM if I output it in HDR2020 mode (which seems to retain the contrast but allow for increased light output). I don't know if it's that my JVC RS4500 colors are simply better in HDR mode (e.g. with a HDR gamma) or something else, but the difference is not subtle.

I get that there are compromises when trying to map a 10000 nit title into 100 nits but I think we need a bit more control over how it's done so that the image is not washed out.


----------



## madshi

@KarlKlammer, @Ian_Currie,

if I may chime in here, although not currently being a Lumagen user:

My personal opinion matches Jim's (no surprise there). Basically I consider what the Arve custom curves do (and also the official JVC projector HDR implementation) really bad, from a color science point of view. I mean Arve did the best that was technically possible, but scientifically speaking, it's a bad solution. Here's a quick demonstration why:










These screenshots were made with a special test pattern I created which asks for colors which after YCbCr -> RGB conversion "overflow". Such colors should probably not be used in UHD Blu-Rays, but in reality they sometimes are. And what is worse: Tone mapping often turns perfectly valid colors into such "overflowing" colors. So although my test pattern is pretty mean, it's still valid to test for extreme situations.

What you can see in the test pattern above is how the test pattern should ideally be rendered (left side): All color bars should maintain their hue, just get brighter from left to right. On the right side you can see what the Arve type of color handling does to that test pattern: It totally destroys the hue! Basically red first turns into orange and then into yellow. Blue turns pink. And (you can't see that in this test pattern) green turns yellow, too.

Here's another image for you, this time real world material:










From left to right:

1) Arve/JVC color handling, tone mapped for a 4,000nits display.
2) Arve/JVC color handling, tone mapped for a 200nits display.
3) Proper color handling, tone mapped for a 4,000nits display.
4) Proper color handling, tone mapped for a 200nits display.

As you can see, Arve/JVC color handling renders a deep red for a 4,000nits display, but switches to bright yellow for a 200nits display. That obviously doesn't make any sense. Arve/JVC color handling isn't even consistent with itself. Depending on how bright your display is (LCD flat panel vs projector), it will either produce deep red or bright yellow. Proper color handling doesn't do that. Instead it renders the same hue, regardless of the display's peak luminance capabilities.

I have to admit, though, that the hue shifts produced by Arve/JVC color handling do make Mad Max explosions look more like what we're used to from other movies. But that is actually a lucky accident, nothing more! In this specific case the orange/yellow hue shift looks subjectively natural to our eyes. But in other cases such hue shifts can be very detrimental to image quality.

But instead of making Arve/JVC color handling look bad, we can also go the other way and showcase how much nicer proper tone mapping can look with real content. @Soulnight was kind enough to make some nice comparison images here, using the The World in HDR demo:

other AVSForum thread post with many comparison screenshots

The images titled "dynamic" were made with madVR's best quality tone mapping, which I expect should look similar to what the Lumagen does (?). The so-called "dumb" images are made with Arve/JVC type color handling. For comparison purposes I'd suggest that you copy the URLs of those images from the other thread and paste them into different browser tabs, to make quick back & forth switching possible, which will allow you to see the difference much better.

Contrast is a mostly separate issue to color handling, btw. Contrast will mostly depend on which tone mapping curve is used. Color handling instead decides whether there are any hue shifts, and how much bright + highly saturated colors are desaturated.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Thank you @*madshi* for your insights.

I wrote earlier, it is not my intention to endlessly complain about the Radiance Tone Mapping. And now that there is an explanation for the dumb enduser  why colors are handled the way they are, I was already making my peace with it. 
As you wrote, it is also a problem what we expect some things to look like based on past experience. And when I look at those correctly reproduced scenes in Mad Max and compare them to what is promised by the words "High" and "Dynamic" in the term "HDR" then it is not entirely satisfactory.

I spent some time again measuring the 1D LUT. And I found the error in my settings as why the image subjectively lacked contrast. Jim was right. The nit-for-nit-area of the curve is extremely important. 
My settings for nit-for-nit _were _right at the beginning. That was until someone convinced me, that my settings must be wrong the way they were. I will *never *listen to people in forums again, when my measurements are OK. 

So with my current settings I am able to follow the curve of my LightSpace reference up to 65%. That goes for 1000 and 4000 Nits. Some compromises had to be made for clipping. And I still wish there would be a little more control for the upper end.


----------



## madshi

KarlKlammer said:


> I wrote earlier, it is not my intention to endlessly complain about the Radiance Tone Mapping. And now that there is an explenation for the dumb enduser  why colors are handled the way they are, I was already making my peace with it.


Well, I'm often slightly annoyed when users complain about my algorithms/implementation, but in the end, it often does help improving things. So as long as there's a good reason for (constructive) complaining, it's a good thing to do. I'm sure my own tone mapping can be improved further, maybe Lumagen's can be improved, too, I really can't say. Probably the best approach is to compare various tone mapping approaches for difficult movie scenes. That might show if and where there's room for improvement.


----------



## jrp

madshi said:


> @KarlKlammer, @Ian_Currie,
> 
> if I may chime in here, although not currently being a Lumagen user:
> 
> My personal opinion matches Jim's (no surprise there). Basically I consider what the Arve custom curves do (and also the official JVC projector HDR implementation) really bad, from a color science point of view. I mean Arve did the best that was technically possible, but scientifically speaking, it's a bad solution. ...


madshi:

Thanks for posting the test pattern to show the color issue with using a 1D LUT for tone mapping. It really shows the issue you and I have been trying to get across and I appreciate you posting it here.

=== 

All:

One other thought I had on the Mad Max Fury Road sand storm scene (and similar scenes in other movies), and that madshi commented on by saying "what we are used to," is that I initially considered that the Pro HDR IM might have an issue with the Fury Road truck explosion since when Kris and I looked at the SDR version the explosion had more yellow.

However, after looking at the HDR data, I concluded that the explosion is more yellow in the SDR version because the colorist wanted more intensity (achieved by increasing green which made it both brighter and more yellow), and so gave on getting the correct color. However, this compromise is not needed for HDR since the explosion is well within the maximum nit range possible with HDR. So the intended color in the HDR version are much more burnt orange and less yellow.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Thank you @*madshi* for your insights.
> 
> I wrote earlier, it is not my intention to endlessly complain about the Radiance Tone Mapping. And now that there is an explanation for the dumb enduser  why colors are handled the way they are, I was already making my peace with it.
> As you wrote, it is also a problem what we expect some things to look like based on past experience. And when I look at those correctly reproduced scenes in Mad Max and compare them to what is promised by the words "High" and "Dynamic" in the term "HDR" then it is not entirely satisfactory.
> 
> I spent some time again measuring the 1D LUT. And I found the error in my settings as why the image subjectively lacked contrast. Jim was right. The nit-for-nit-area of the curve is extremely important.
> My settings for nit-for-nit _were _right at the beginning. That was until someone convinced me, that my settings must be wrong the way they were. I will *never *listen to people in forums again, when my measurements are OK.
> 
> So with my current settings I am able to follow the curve of my LightSpace reference up to 65%. That goes for 1000 and 4000 Nits. Some compromises had to be made for clipping. And I still wish there would be a little more control for the upper end.


Thanks for the update. I am glad you have been able to find better HDR IM settings.

The range for the upper end is controlled by the Tran (transition) parameter and the Shape parameter. On my LED TV I can get the sand storm explosion to look very good (or "flat" if I give too much to the nit-for-bit range). With a projector you have less room for the upper end and if you give enough nit-for-nit you will lose detail in the upper end. So with a projector if you increase the Tran parameter you will limited the upper end and you will lose details in the upper end. There is no way to "improve the upper end" when there is no upper end range left due to the setting of Tran, Shape and Display Max Light.

There is something you can do to compromise favoring the upper end more. If you select a larger Display Max Light value, the nit-for-nit range becomes a "linear-fraction" of the nit-for nit range. So you will still have linear response like the nit-for-nit is intended to have in the lower values (but they will be somewhat darker). This way you will have more room left at the upper end detail. Then adjust the HDR parameters with the new Display Max value to again optimize the low, mid and upper range.

There has to be a trade-off and when you give most of the range to nit-for-nit, you cannot have as much range for the upper end and you will have a more "flat" response in the upper end. This is simply how the math works. However, the above may help you get a trade-off that is more along the lines of your goal of more definition at the upper end while preserving the desired linear response in the low end.


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> Thanks for the update. I am glad you have been able to find better HDR IM settings.
> 
> The range for the upper end is controlled by the Tran (transition) parameter and the Shape parameter. On my LED TV I can get the sand storm explosion to look very good (or "flat" if I give too much to the nit-for-bit range). With a projector you have less room for the upper end and if you give enough nit-for-nit you will lose detail in the upper end. So with a projector if you increase the Tran parameter you will limited the upper end and you will lose details in the upper end. There is no way to "improve the upper end" when there is no upper end range left due to the setting of Tran, Shape and Display Max Light.
> 
> There is something you can do to compromise favoring the upper end more. If you select a larger Display Max Light value, the nit-for-nit range becomes a "linear-fraction" of the nit-for nit range. So you will still have linear response like the nit-for-nit is intended to have in the lower values (but they will be somewhat darker). This way you will have more room left at the upper end detail. Then adjust the HDR parameters with the new Display Max value to again optimize the low, mid and upper range.
> 
> There has to be a trade-off and when you give most of the range to nit-for-nit, you cannot have as much range for the upper end and you will have a more "flat" response in the upper end. This is simply how the math works. However, the above may help you get a trade-off that is more along the lines of your goal of more definition at the upper end while preserving the desired linear response in the low end.


For the 1D chart to look like above, I increased Max Display Light from 500 to 700. Transition is at 15 and Shape at 3/4. With Max Display Light at 500, Tranistion was at 12/13 and Shape the same as now. So it seems setting Max Display Light higher requires Transition to be higher. And with Transition set to 15, I have reached the end.

Just as an information
madshi has written this about some screenshots I posted in the other thread


madshi said:


> Thank you for the screenshots! Ok, so we can conclude that:
> 
> 1) Lumagen's IM does not desaturate at all. It's the same approach which madVR uses if you select the option "100% luminance reduction, 0% saturation reduction". IMHO that's not a good choice, to be honest. As you can see, it produces highlight detail loss in some scenes. Ok, these scenes are extreme cases, but they do occur.
> 
> 2) LightSpace seems to use "dumb/naive" color handling, which is surprising to me.


----------



## madshi

jrp said:


> However, after looking at the HDR data, I concluded that the explosion is more yellow in the SDR version because the colorist wanted more intensity (achieved by increasing green which made it both brighter and more yellow), and so gave on getting the correct color.


It's possible that he did that, or alternatively I could also imagine that the software the colorist used for tone mapping HDR -> SDR used the same naive arve/JVC color handling approach.

(I'll send some more comments to you via PM.)


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> anything planned on the auto-aspect feature?
> 
> I usually use HDMI+image but the credits often trigger the wrong aspect.
> 
> Also any plans of switching much faster, it would be very useful in particular for Nolan movies (I hate that).
> 
> How about a customizable value in seconds on how fast it would detect changes?
> 
> -roland


Jim, any feedback on that?


----------



## jrp

We will be changing the HDR IM parameter defaults in the next release. These changes will affect only the defaults when the parameters are reset (in the HDR IM parameters menu, or a factory reset, plus a Save). We need to thank Kris Deering for his work testing the various permutations of Display Max Light, Tran and Shape to discover the optimal settings.

Currently the Display Max Light default is 500, and for the MaxCLL > 2500 parameter set, Shape = 3 and Tran = 10. Kris discovered, and we have confirmed, for a display that has excellent HDR quality using these defaults, that if one reduces Display Max Light to 400, and increases Shape to 5 and Tran to 11, the results are even better. Note, you may, or may not, want to reduce the Display Max Light. As always try different settings to determine the best one for the > 2500 nit source parameter set, than adjust Ratio as needed to modify the effective Display Max Light for the 2500 nits are Tran = 11 and Shape = 5, and for MaxCLL


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> We will be changing the HDR IM parameter defaults in the next release. These changes will affect only the defaults when the parameters are reset (in the HDR IM parameters menu, or a factory reset, plus a Save). We need to thank Kris Deering for his work testing the various permutations of Display Max Light, Tran and Shape to discover the optimal settings.
> 
> Currently the Display Max Light default is 500, and for the MaxCLL > 2500 parameter set, Shape = 3 and Tran = 10. Kris discovered, and we have confirmed, for a display that has excellent HDR quality using these defaults, that if one reduces Display Max Light to 400, and increases Shape to 5 and Tran to 11, the results are even better. Note, you may, or may not, want to reduce the Display Max Light. As always try different settings to determine the best one for the > 2500 nit source parameter set, than adjust Ratio as needed to modify the effective Display Max Light for the 2500 nits are Tran = 11 and Shape = 5, and for MaxCLL


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> anything planned on the auto-aspect feature?
> 
> I usually use HDMI+image but the credits often trigger the wrong aspect.
> 
> Also any plans of switching much faster, it would be very useful in particular for Nolan movies (I hate that).
> 
> How about a customizable value in seconds on how fast it would detect changes?
> 
> -roland


Currently image-based auto-aspect work is not on the to-do list. Does not mean it cannot rise enough in priority to get on the list, but we would need feedback from a number of people on this being more important than other things already on the to-do list.

A programmable time to "make sure" of an aspect ratio change is a reasonable request. I will mention it to Patrick. If it turns out to be simple we might put it in to a release in the near future. If not, probably not getting done anytime soon.

=== 

If you send an email to us at [email protected] detailing what you mean by "credits often trigger the wrong aspect" we can at least understand what you are seeing and maybe it is something simple to fix. What we need to know is are credits that should be 16:9 detected as 2.35, or are credits that should be 2.35 detected as 16:9, or what is happening. It would be helpful to know what movie(s) you see this on and if possible the timestamp of the credits that can easily demonstrate the issue. If there are additional details you can give it would be helpful.

On this issue it seems likely we can reproduce it without any information but it is always quicker to have as much info to start as possible. And having someone take the time to get the info to us might just bump the priority up.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Kris Deering said:


> The numbers Jim has above are when I was setting display max at 500. I also set contrast to 2, but I could easily live with 0 as well for that setting.


Did you mean to say Gamma?


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> Did you mean to say Gamma?


I did, sorry!


----------



## wfdTamar

After installing my Radiance Pro 4242 in my setup, I'm finding on some (or just one) source devices, possibly only sometimes, that I have audio/video sync issues. I find it mostly with my PVR, but it's hard to pin down. I didn't notice a problem before the Radiance.

I think what I need are some video files that are the equivalent of a clapper board so I can see how I need to adjust the delay (although I think you can only go one way on the Radiance). Does anyone know of any, or what I should be googling for?

My chain of devices is PVR (Beyonwiz T4) and other source devices (Bluray, streaming boxes) - Radiance 4242 - video to TV, audio to Bryston SP3 processor.


----------



## jrp

wfdTamar said:


> After installing my Radiance Pro 4242 in my setup, I'm finding on some (or just one) source devices, possibly only sometimes, that I have audio/video sync issues. I find it mostly with my PVR, but it's hard to pin down. I didn't notice a problem before the Radiance.
> 
> I think what I need are some video files that are the equivalent of a clapper board so I can see how I need to adjust the delay (although I think you can only go one way on the Radiance). Does anyone know of any, or what I should be googling for?
> 
> My chain of devices is PVR (Beyonwiz T4) and other source devices (Bluray, streaming boxes) - Radiance 4242 - video to TV, audio to Bryston SP3 processor.


Please contact us at [email protected] or call 503-574-2211 Option 2 for support.

Note that drop outs and sync issues generally have to be resolved by changing HDMI cables.


----------



## wfdTamar

Ok just emailed support. I'm using reasonable new HDMI cables from here:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15427


----------



## bobof

wfdTamar said:


> Ok just emailed support. I'm using reasonable new HDMI cables from here:
> 
> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15427


I guess by your post about a clapper what you actually mean is that you have some delay between video and audio, not that the audio and/or video are breaking up (I can't see how cables would be related to audio delay)


----------



## mickb1965

Hi,
Just seen this quote below on UK forums, is this remotely accurate, or just a case of the OP having a not-so hidden agenda (they seem to be a big Madvr fan).....


I have no agenda just pointing out the limitations like others do on this forum.
Mad Max Fury Road is 1 of many that will clip if using Lumagens Pro solution.

A quick search finds the below films exceed Lumagens Pro Intensity Mapping - Max Content Light Level (MaxCLL) threshold so scenes will clip like the above sample pic, released almost a year ago for HDR content Intensity Mapping and only now getting an update.......soon............

Inferno
The Da Vinci Code
Ghostbusters 2016
Ghostbusters
Ghostbusters II
Life
The Magnificent Seven
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon 
Mad Max Fury Road
Starship Troopers
Chappie
Kong Skull Island
Interstella
Underworld
Underworld Blood Wars
Dunkirk
Blade Runner 2049


----------



## Kris Deering

mickb1965 said:


> Hi,
> Just seen this quote below on UK forums, is this remotely accurate, or just a case of the OP having a not-so hidden agenda (they seem to be a big Madvr fan).....
> 
> 
> I have no agenda just pointing out the limitations like others do on this forum.
> Mad Max Fury Road is 1 of many that will clip if using Lumagens Pro solution.
> 
> A quick search finds the below films exceed Lumagens Pro Intensity Mapping - Max Content Light Level (MaxCLL) threshold so scenes will clip like the above sample pic, released almost a year ago for HDR content Intensity Mapping and only now getting an update.......soon............
> 
> Inferno
> The Da Vinci Code
> Ghostbusters 2016
> Ghostbusters
> Ghostbusters II
> Life
> The Magnificent Seven
> Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
> Mad Max Fury Road
> Starship Troopers
> Chappie
> Kong Skull Island
> Interstella
> Underworld
> Underworld Blood Wars
> Dunkirk
> Blade Runner 2049



There is no clipping on the Pro. It is actually the other solution (Arve) that IS clipping, the Radiance is actually displaying the colors based on the pixel information correctly, it just doesn't look as good subjectively. This is just another case of people chiming in on something they don't understand.


----------



## jrp

To add to Kris' comment, here is a portion of information I sent to Gordon in the UK to address the inaccurate posts going around:

The scenes are NOT clipping in the Pro. I checked. The color rendered by the Radiance Pro is the color on the disc. In fact the Pro looks as it does because it does NOT clip the colors and other Tone Mapping apparently is clipping or at least desaturating the colors.

The Radiance Pro's response is mathematically accurate. However, some experienced people are suggesting the Pro desaturate the colors for these extreme bright saturated colors. So, we are looking at desaturating the brighter colors some since some people seem to prefer this even though this will actually make the color less accurate as compared to what is on the disc.

I would also like to note these scenes are one, or at most a few, frames. For example the Mad Max Fury Road Lightening scene (28:53), the bright lightning involved in this discussion is a single frame (plus one or two frames with significantly reduced brightness not affected by this discussion). You would have to pause on the scene to notice the differences if we choose to desaturate the color. The flames on the car are shown for a few flames but again the Pro is showing the colors as they are on the disc.

It is also commonly discussed that early HDR titles like Mad Max Fury Road actually have inappropriate choices for these brightly saturated colors. And that as the colorists have more experience editing HDR the colors on the disc will be desaturated in editing so that they do not have to be desaturated by Tone Mapping. This is subject to debate, but the big issue with having over saturated color on the disc is that if Tone Mapping is changed to render the over saturated colors as some people want, rather than what is on the disc, when a colorist truly wants to exploit the 2020 color Gamut and produce highly saturated colors it will not be possible because the Tone Mapping algorithms will desaturate the colors. So this discussion is really about do we change the Tone Mapping algorithm to NOT be accurate for these early titles at the expense of future titles that truly need the highly saturated colors?

We will be looking at ways to make the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping even better and we may well choose to put in some desaturation. However, it is my strongly held opinion that Tone Mapping should accurately portray the color on the disc/video-stream (as I believe the Pro does) and that it is up to the colorist to desaturate colors if they would otherwise be over saturated from what a viewer would like to see. The colorist has knowledge of what he/she wants to see, we have only the data on the disc and math.


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> We will be looking at ways to make the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping even better and we may well choose to put in some desaturation. However, it is my strongly held opinion that Tone Mapping should accurately portray the color on the disc/video-stream (as I believe the Pro does) and that it is up to the colorist to desaturate colors if they would otherwise be over saturated from what a viewer would like to see. The colorist has knowledge of what he/she wants to see, we have only the data on the disc and math.


To say that Jim and I have had long conversations about all this is putting it lightly. This is really difficult to tackle from any perspective because the information you're dealing with may be faulty in the first place.


For example, Mad Max has LOTS of content that exceeds the display max. So with that, you have to try and figure out what happened with the mastering. According to the people I've talked to about it, the display would just clip any information above its max (in this case the Pulsar, which has no tone mapping). So by that rationale, would it be better to just clip anything that exceeds the display max in the metadata because that is what the mastering monitor did? But if it truly does have content that is above the mastering monitor, why do some other HDR encodes of the SAME movie NOT exceed the display max? I have a hard time believing that they did multiple HDR grades of the same film at this point in the game. So was it a bug in the metadata or the encode side? I'd love to say that the studios would be studious in this but we've seen exactly the opposite. The metadata for most titles is either not there or completely out to lunch, and that isn't even addressing that the metadata that they chose to provide was a poor choice to begin with in its implementation.


For the dimming, do you make this kind of choice for what amounts to a few seconds of issues at the risk of compromising other titles without issues? Like Jim said, just about every example that is being scrutinized here are literally a couple frames AT BEST and would generally be unnoticeable unless you paused on that exact frame and had something to compare it to that simply looks different. 


I do not envy Jim, Patrick or Madshi on this stuff at all.


----------



## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> Glad I could help with this. I have been doing continuous testing with as many "difficult" scenes as I can to generate numbers. You have to be very careful with the T/S settings as they change quite a bit depending on display max. Otherwise you get an overly processed look.
> 
> 
> For example, yesterday I played around with setting display max to my actual display light value. This looks great with A LOT of content but it caused issues with others. For example, it created banding artifacts in Mad Max (or emphasized existing banding that is normally not seen) and it also made the "Sand storm" sequence look garish and overly red. I found that using any setting of display max less than about 300 resulted in visible banding with Mad Max (though other titles looked fantastic). So right now I am using 300, which required me to tweak my other numbers. I will post them tonight so folks that want to try them can.
> 
> 
> The numbers Jim has above are when I was setting display max at 500. I also set contrast to 2, but I could easily live with 0 as well for that setting.


Kris:

Id like to try your numbers for 300 also when you can post. The 500 numbers looked really good for Hell or High Water 4K UHD disc.


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## Kris Deering

LJG said:


> Kris:
> 
> Id like to try your numbers for 300 also when you can post. The 500 numbers looked really good for Hell or High Water 4K UHD disc.


I believe they are similar TBH, but I can check when I get home and post.


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## madshi

jrp said:


> The Radiance Pro's response is mathematically accurate. However, some experienced people are suggesting the Pro desaturate the colors for these extreme bright saturated colors. So, we are looking at desaturating the brighter colors some since some people seem to prefer this even though this will actually make the color less accurate as compared to what is on the disc.
> 
> It is also commonly discussed that early HDR titles like Mad Max Fury Road actually have inappropriate choices for these brightly saturated colors. And that as the colorists have more experience editing HDR the colors on the disc will be desaturated in editing so that they do not have to be desaturated by Tone Mapping. This is subject to debate, but the big issue with having over saturated color on the disc is that if Tone Mapping is changed to render the over saturated colors as some people want, rather than what is on the disc, when a colorist truly wants to exploit the 2020 color Gamut and produce highly saturated colors it will not be possible because the Tone Mapping algorithms will desaturate the colors. So this discussion is really about do we change the Tone Mapping algorithm to NOT be accurate for these early titles at the expense of future titles that truly need the highly saturated colors?
> 
> We will be looking at ways to make the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping even better and we may well choose to put in some desaturation. However, it is my strongly held opinion that Tone Mapping should accurately portray the color on the disc/video-stream (as I believe the Pro does) and that it is up to the colorist to desaturate colors if they would otherwise be over saturated from what a viewer would like to see. The colorist has knowledge of what he/she wants to see, we have only the data on the disc and math.


I fully agree with your sentiment that we should try our best to reproduce the content as near to the encoding as possible - warts and all! However, please double check that you honor the Y channel just as much as the CbCr channels. I did not suggest desaturation to hide Mad Max encoding bugs. The one and only reason why I've suggested that is because it's the only possible way to reproduce the Y channel correctly in extreme (and rare) cases like some of the Mad Max frames.

(Did you receive my email? I've gone into a lot more detail in the email. If you haven't received it, please check your spam folder, thanks.)


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## wfdTamar

bobof said:


> I guess by your post about a clapper what you actually mean is that you have some delay between video and audio, not that the audio and/or video are breaking up (I can't see how cables would be related to audio delay)


Yes, hence the phrase 'audio/video sync'. I've seen on device that showed a clip an animation of a ball slowly bouncing on a floor. It makes a sound when it makes contact with the floor. I need something like that to play on the PVR so I can work out if adding delay to the Radiance input works. It's too hard just using a regular clip of people talking.


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## KarlKlammer

A quick search via google found this
https://archive.org/details/BBCHDAudioSyncTest
I don't know if this clip is OK. But you could give it a try.


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## appelz

KarlKlammer said:


> A quick search via google found this
> https://archive.org/details/BBCHDAudioSyncTest
> I don't know if this clip is OK. But you could give it a try.


YouTube has quite a few that you can stream from an AppleTV or Roku. 

"Audio Video Lip Sync Test" turns up quite a few.


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## wfdTamar

Thanks. I tried googling, but my search terms were off and I didn't find anything. 

Yes that BBC one is good, just a bit fast.


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## Kris Deering

LJG said:


> Kris:
> 
> 
> 
> Id like to try your numbers for 300 also when you can post. The 500 numbers looked really good for Hell or High Water 4K UHD disc.




> 2000 shape 4 transition 11 gamma 2
< 2000 shape 3 transition 7 gamma 2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> > 2000 shape 4 transition 11 gamma 2
> < 2000 shape 3 transition 7 gamma 2
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


TY Kris


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## jrp

madshi said:


> I fully agree with your sentiment that we should try our best to reproduce the content as near to the encoding as possible - warts and all! However, please double check that you honor the Y channel just as much as the CbCr channels. I did not suggest desaturation to hide Mad Max encoding bugs. The one and only reason why I've suggested that is because it's the only possible way to reproduce the Y channel correctly in extreme (and rare) cases like some of the Mad Max frames.
> 
> (Did you receive my email? I've gone into a lot more detail in the email. If you haven't received it, please check your spam folder, thanks.)


I did not receive your email and searching our SPAM filter emails has proven ineffective. I will send a private message. I certainly appreciate your comments on the Pro's HDR IM and want to continue our conversation.

====== 

Your question leads me to believe you are doing Tone Mapping in YCbCr or perhaps HSL color space. I'm guessing YCbCr given it seems you are using the pixel-processor in a graphics card. I considered one of these two color spaces for the Pro Tone Mapping but instead choose linear-Gamma RGB. I can say that after the suggestion to desaturate brighter colors, I have already considered adding a conversion to/from HSL or YCbCr as a way to desaturate the bright colors.

However, for the same reason special effects are generated in Linear Gamma RGB, I choose to do the Tone Mapping in Linear Gamma RGB to preserve the color saturation. I do have some thoughts on how to allow desaturation and still not impede colorists from using highly saturated colors.

==== 

Another point I would like to make is that Mad Max Fury Road was mastered on a 4000 nit Pulsar monitor. In the "Lightning scene" (28:53) the MaxCLL is over 9900, and the maximum linear Y is over 4000 nits which in turn is beyond the capabilities of the monitor to accurately represent (this point has already been made by Kris Deering).

The net effect of this is it may be that the colorist did not notice that the pixels in the lightning and exhaust flames have so much cyan in them because the monitor was crushing the color saturation out for the pixels due to being over driven. We can't know exactly what was seen by the colorists, but it seems likely to me that this is a factor with this scene. I have asked a friend to look at this "lightning scene" on a pulsar monitor to see if the colors do get desaturated due to the pixel brightness. On the other hand if you look at the color of a propane flame the hottest part is cyan which I am certain the colorist knew. So the large amount of cyan in the exhaust flame may be intentional.


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## Mark_H

Would it be possible to add this desaturation as a user number like the other IM variables, even if just ON/OFF? Then those who want accuracy can defeat it, and those who want to tweak subjectivty can do so?

Just want to say that one of the reasons I choose Lumagen is not only because you do things best but because I know you guys always do things correctly, and that is really important to me.


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## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> > 2000 shape 4 transition 11 gamma 2
> < 2000 shape 3 transition 7 gamma 2


I'm curious. May I ask you how you determine your settings? Do you take scenes (or patterns) you know or do you measure them in some way?


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## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> I'm curious. May I ask you how you determine your settings? Do you take scenes (or patterns) you know or do you measure them in some way?


I've measured them, but that typically only gets me so far. Mainly I have a LOT of go to scenes that have been troublesome for one reason or another and try to find the best balance to give a pleasing image with no obvious artifacts.


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## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> I've measured them, but that typically only gets me so far. Mainly I have a LOT of go to scenes that have been troublesome for one reason or another and try to find the best balance to give a pleasing image with no obvious artifacts.


Thank you.
My last attempts took three steps. First I measured different combinations to come close to my preferred curve. Afterwards I had to fine tune those settings to get the clipping right. And the last step was checking them against different scenes.
After trying different recommended settings for IM, I think it is like taking the same calibration settings from one display/projector for another.


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## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> Thank you.
> My last attempts took three steps. First I measured different combinations to come close to my preferred curve. Afterwards I had to fine tune those settings to get the clipping right. And the last step was checking them against different scenes.
> After trying different recommended settings for IM, I think it is like taking the same calibration settings from one display/projector for another.




I don’t think it is quite as drastic as similar calibration settings as there are more variables there. I think settings will change more depending on peak display value. What settings have you found work best for you? What is your measured peak white?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t think it is quite as drastic as similar calibration settings as there are more variables there. I think settings will change more depending on peak display value. What settings have you found work best for you? What is your measured peak white?


My peak white is 113 Nits. To get to the results I described here
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-99.html#post56042700
I used the following settings:
Max Display Light 700
2000 Ratio -1, Shape 3, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0

I'm just trying to decide on another group of settings for


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## Roland Janus

KarlKlammer said:


> My peak white is 113 Nits. To get to the results I described here
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-99.html#post56042700
> I used the following settings:
> Max Display Light 700
> 2000 Ratio -1, Shape 3, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0
> 
> I'm just trying to decide on another group of settings for


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## KarlKlammer

Roland Janus said:


> Does that say how did you get from the 113 nits to the 700 max display light value?


I would like the IM ST.2084 curve to look like the one I created with LightSpace. For LightSpace I use a projection muliplier of 5. IM also uses some kind of multiplier for Max Display Light. When I remember correctly it wasn't specified how to find a suitable multiplier. Gordon wrote some time ago to start at 800 and decrease it until you are satisfied with brightness.
So to match the nit-for-nit-area of IM to my LightSpace curve 700 was the value that brought me there. 500 (or 5x113) wasn't close enough.


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## Roland Janus

KarlKlammer said:


> I would like the IM ST.2084 curve to look like the one I created with LightSpace. For LightSpace I use a projection muliplier of 5. IM also uses some kind of multiplier for Max Display Light. When I remember correctly it wasn't specified how to find a suitable multiplier. Gordon wrote some time ago to start at 800 and decrease it until you are satisfied with brightness.
> So to match the nit-for-nit-area of IM to my LightSpace curve 700 was the value that brought me there. 565 (5x113) wasn't close enough.


Since it's called Max Display Light, I thought there is a more direct relationship between actual measured output and what to enter.
The manual says for SDR2020 to use between 100 to 500 for a projector, quiet less then what you used, but not how to get to that number.
"satisfied" it not a precise method 

Jim: Any advice on how to get that value?
Since it seems to be rather important to get that right.


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## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> Since it's called Max Display Light, I thought there is a more direct relationship between actual measured output and what to enter.
> The manual says for SDR2020 to use between 100 to 500 for a projector, quiet less then what you used, but not how to get to that number.
> "satisfied" it not a precise method
> 
> Jim: Any advice on how to get that value?
> Since it seems to be rather important to get that right.


You have to find a multiplier that works for you. I find a max display value that high just kills the lower end too much, so images look too dark. The scene with Leo's son is a perfect example of that for testing. Look at a SDR grade of that scene and then look at HDR. Almost every curve I look at is way too dark. When I look at it with Dolby's tone mapping, it looks closer to the SDR grade. I find that 200-300 looks about right with my setup. 

I actually REALLY like the way my ACTUAL display max looks with IM (85) except that it accentuates banding a bit more than I'd like (doesn't add it, just makes existing banding more obvious). But a higher number will give you more overall dynamic range to work with at the expense of a darker image overall, so I understand why some prefer that as well. I'm using 300 right now, and it seems to be a nice middle ground overall for me.


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## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> You have to find a multiplier that works for you. I find a max display value that high just kills the lower end too much, so images look too dark. The scene with Leo's son is a perfect example of that for testing. Look at a SDR grade of that scene and then look at HDR. Almost every curve I look at is way too dark. When I look at it with Dolby's tone mapping, it looks closer to the SDR grade. I find that 200-300 looks about right with my setup.
> 
> I actually REALLY like the way my ACTUAL display max looks with IM (85) except that it accentuates banding a bit more than I'd like (doesn't add it, just makes existing banding more obvious). But a higher number will give you more overall dynamic range to work with at the expense of a darker image overall, so I understand why some prefer that as well. I'm using 300 right now, and it seems to be a nice middle ground overall for me.


so basically, there is not really a objectively measuring method but to watch and subjectively determine the value by eye on a specific scene.
"Leo's son" is referring to which movie?
Other movies/scenes?

That's all for using SDR2020. What about HDR out, where the manual says between 3000-9900 in general but nothing about specific projector values?


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## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> My peak white is 113 Nits. To get to the results I described here
> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-99.html#post56042700
> I used the following settings:
> Max Display Light 700
> 2000 Ratio -1, Shape 3, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0
> 
> I'm just trying to decide on another group of settings for 2000 titles. Didn't work for me. It looks good with some material, almost has a Darbee effect with some fine detail and local contrast, but it also blows out images. It makes the scene in Mad Max in the sandstorm nearly unwatchable at times, with parts of the image blown out (clipped) with no detail. Even my settings can be aggressive with some of the parts of that sequence, but it is already so stylized to begin with I don't know if it is the best clip to judge those sorts of things. Unless you knew EXACTLY what they wanted each little part to look like, it is a crap shoot.
> 
> I will say though. I hope that at some point in the near future we get to the point where most of this is put to bed. I miss being able to watch something and just knowing that the settings are correct (to a standard) so I am not wondering if everything I'm looking at is intentional or something I have set wrong. LOL.


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## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> so basically, there is not really a objectively measuring method but to watch and subjectively determine the value by eye on a specific scene.
> "Leo's son" is referring to which movie?
> Other movies/scenes?
> 
> That's all for using SDR2020. What about HDR out, where the manual says between 3000-9900 in general but nothing about specific projector values?


There is no objective method for doing tone mapping yet as there is no real standard. There are best practices, and the time and effort method of looking at a lot of material and finding settings that do the least harm.


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## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> I tried your settings with >2000 titles. Didn't work for me. It looks good with some material, almost has a Darbee effect with some fine detail and local contrast, but it also blows out images. It makes the scene in Mad Max in the sandstorm nearly unwatchable at times, with parts of the image blown out (clipped) with no detail. Even my settings can be aggressive with some of the parts of that sequence, but it is already so stylized to begin with I don't know if it is the best clip to judge those sorts of things. Unless you knew EXACTLY what they wanted each little part to look like, it is a crap shoot.


Apart from the different peak white, there is still another big difference in our setup. My projector is set to the Reference color profile (DCI-P3 not BT.2020). And the Radiance has conversion LUT in its CMS1. 
If you take my settings unchanged, I bet it will be at least too dark. 
When I took your settings, I had clipping for 1000 nit movies at about 70% and for 4000 nit movies at 87%. 
The curve for 1000 nits was fairly OK. But for 4000 nits it was rather strange.
And that's why I wrote earlier, that I suspect with IM settings it is like with all other calibration data. You can't take it for a different setup.



> I will say though. I hope that at some point in the near future we get to the point where most of this is put to bed. I miss being able to watch something and just knowing that the settings are correct (to a standard) so I am not wondering if everything I'm looking at is intentional or something I have set wrong. LOL.


That's what I hope, too. It's absolutely distracting to doubt every second scene you watch and then switching back an forth between IM, LightSpace and Arve only to confirm that in most cases the difference isn't worth the trouble.
Until I thought something was wrong when I watched Life a few days ago and started comparing with the Mad Max scenes, I lived in blissful ignorance and was able to really watch movies. I want to have that back.


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## bearcat2017

Here is a scene from greatest showman comparing 709 vs sdr2020 on the radiance Pro with a vw600es. The colors and contrast really stand out. It does however make other areas darker in the clip but maybe that is how it was made to look instead of being bleached out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roland Janus

bearcat2017 said:


> Here is a scene from greatest showman comparing 709 vs sdr2020 on the radiance Pro with a vw600es. The colors and contrast really stand out. It does however make other areas darker in the clip but maybe that is how it was made to look instead of being bleached out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


what settings are you using?


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## bearcat2017

Roland Janus said:


> what settings are you using?




Which ones are you wanting to know...I had it calibrated professionally and haven’t touched it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bearcat2017

bearcat2017 said:


> Which ones are you wanting to know...I had it calibrated professionally and haven’t touched it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Does it look right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roland Janus

bearcat2017 said:


> Which ones are you wanting to know...I had it calibrated professionally and haven’t touched it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the HDR related ones please.


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## Kris Deering

Settled out on some new settings after trying some new things. I wanted to make it where I have a bit more dynamic range for high nit titles like BvS or Mad Max but have a brighter overall image for lower nit titles where I want to get more for shadow detail and such (Revenant). So I changed my display max to 400 (my peak white is 85 nits for my scope screen, but I am putting in a 1.3 gain screen near the end of the month to try a brighter image). New settings:

>2000 from left to right: -15, 4, 9, 0, 0


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## Ian_Currie

Kris Deering said:


> Settled out on some new settings after trying some new things. I wanted to make it where I have a bit more dynamic range for high nit titles like BvS or Mad Max but have a brighter overall image for lower nit titles where I want to get more for shadow detail and such (Revenant). So I changed my display max to 400 (my peak white is 85 nits for my scope screen, but I am putting in a 1.3 gain screen near the end of the month to try a brighter image). New settings:
> 
> >2000 from left to right: -15, 4, 9, 0, 0


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## leemathre

All of this conversation is great, but it is all way over my head. I wish there were a Radiance Pro for dummies.


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## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> I'll try those numbers out today (just for fun - I'm sure you don't need my feedback, lol).
> 
> 
> 
> Which 1.3 screen are you switching to - Stewart ST130?




Yeah, ST130. 

For the settings above, I only had a little time with them yesterday so I have more testing to do. They looked good with the stuff I looked at but I didn’t get through all my normal viewing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> Yeah, ST130.
> 
> For the settings above, I only had a little time with them yesterday so I have more testing to do. They looked good with the stuff I looked at but I didn’t get through all my normal viewing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


can you provide some scene examples (movie, position) you're testing with and what to look for?


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## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> can you provide some scene examples (movie, position) you're testing with and what to look for?




I’m on travel this week but can post some examples when I get home next week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Would it be possible to add this desaturation as a user number like the other IM variables, even if just ON/OFF? Then those who want accuracy can defeat it, and those who want to tweak subjectivty can do so?
> 
> Just want to say that one of the reasons I choose Lumagen is not only because you do things best but because I know you guys always do things correctly, and that is really important to me.


While I believe the HDR IM math is correct in the Pro, and that information from someone who was one of the people in charge of the Mad Max Fury Road grading says the burnt orange flames (the color produced by the Radiance Pro) are intentional, it is also possible that outputting in SDR mode increases apparent saturation to some degree due to the significantly lower intensity of the image after Tone Mapping. Without a representative photo of the image from the team that did the Mad Max grading, or someone from that team looking at the Pro output, we really cannot be sure if the "burnt orange" output form the Pro is the intended "burnt orange" and exactly how much "yellow" should be in the flames.

In addition we realize that people will vary in what they consider the "best" rendering of these extreme scenes. So we plan to add a user adjustable desaturation control as some have been requesting. 

I would like to thank madshi for providing a "desaturation equation" that will be our starting point. The equation he provided is simpler than what I was thinking of doing and we will adapt it to allow users to decrease the saturation of intense colors.

The new "DeSat" control should appear in the HDR Parameter menu in a release soon (but not the next one). By default we plan for the DeSat to be "no desaturation."


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## D_B_0673

leemathre said:


> All of this conversation is great, but it is all way over my head. I wish there were a Radiance Pro for dummies.


So do I, I am hopelessly lost


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## Ian_Currie

D_B_0673 said:


> So do I, I am hopelessly lost


If you ever acquire one, the users here (including myself) will be happy to assist you.


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## kaotikr1

D_B_0673 said:


> So do I, I am hopelessly lost


Reach out to your dealer, they should be more than happy to assist.


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## D_B_0673

Ian_Currie said:


> If you ever acquire one, the users here (including myself) will be happy to assist you.


I have a Pro, but just use it for BluRay as I cannot understand how to set it up for 4K ( have a JVC 640 also)


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## KarlKlammer

D_B_0673 said:


> I have a Pro, but just use it for BluRay as I cannot understand how to set it up for 4K ( have a JVC 640 also)


 If you don't have someone to set it up for you and can't measure yourself, here is a quick-and-dirty method you can use as a starting point.

1. Set up a user picture mode on your RS640 with BT.2020 color profile (with or without filter is up to you) and Gamma 2.4

2. Configure Radiance CMS1 (Output -> CMS's -> CMS1 -> HDR Mapping) with "Intensity Mapping Enable: On" and "Gamma into 3D LUT: SDR". For Display Max Light, Shape and Transition you can use the defaults, take the settings from Kris or other settings written in this thread and experiment with them. Keep an eye on clipping and possible crushed shadow details with suitable test patterns (R. Masciola or something similar).


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## D_B_0673

KarlKlammer said:


> If you don't have someone to set it up for you and can't measure yourself, here is a quick-and-dirty method you can use as a starting point.
> 
> 1. Set up a user picture mode on your RS640 with BT.2020 color profile (with or without filter is up to you) and Gamma 2.4
> 
> 2. Configure Radiance CMS1 (Output -> CMS's -> CMS1 -> HDR Mapping) with "Intensity Mapping Enable: On" and "Gamma into 3D LUT: SDR". For Display Max Light, Shape and Transition you can use the defaults, take the settings from Kris or other settings written in this thread and experiment with them. Keep an eye on clipping and possible crushed shadow details with suitable test patterns (R. Masciola or something similar).


Thanks very much, 
I will give it a try. I have to find all these settings in the menu


----------



## thrang

(repost from the Sony 5000 thread)

Continue to refine settings with the "hybrid" intensity mapping approach with the Lumagen Radiance Pro and the Sony VPL-VW5000 - 

Radiance HDR2020 colorspace
Radiance Intensity Mapping On/3d LUT HDR/ Max Brightness: 2400
Sony Contrast HDR: 50
Sony Laser *50* - (yes, 50)
Sony Motionflow Impulse (dark frame insertion)
Sony Colorspace 2020 (filter in)


----------



## stefanop

thrang said:


> (repost from the Sony 5000 thread)
> 
> Continue to refine settings with the "hybrid" intensity mapping approach with the Lumagen Radiance Pro and the Sony VPL-VW5000 -
> 
> Radiance HDR2020 colorspace
> Radiance Intensity Mapping On/3d LUT HDR/ Max Brightness: 2400
> Sony Contrast HDR: 50
> Sony Laser *50* - (yes, 50)
> Sony Motionflow Impulse (dark frame insertion)
> Sony Colorspace 2020 (filter in)


Aaargh! Awfully beautiful!!!

Do you leave filter in place for SDR also?


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> (repost from the Sony 5000 thread)
> 
> Continue to refine settings with the "hybrid" intensity mapping approach with the Lumagen Radiance Pro and the Sony VPL-VW5000 -
> 
> Radiance HDR2020 colorspace
> Radiance Intensity Mapping On/3d LUT HDR/ Max Brightness: 2400
> Sony Contrast HDR: 50
> Sony Laser *50* - (yes, 50)
> Sony Motionflow Impulse (dark frame insertion)
> Sony Colorspace 2020 (filter in)


I appreciate you sharing this. I am using the hybrid approach too (thanks to you) and have been absolutely thrilled with the results. I think last time you were using a Max Brightness of 5500. I am using 5000. I'm not familiar with your projector but I assume that a laser value of 50 is on the low side (hence the Max Brightness value of 2400)?


----------



## thrang

stefanop said:


> Aaargh! Awfully beautiful!!!
> 
> Do you leave filter in place for SDR also?


No, my SDR calibration was done in a 709 container, so it slides out of the way.


----------



## thrang

Ian_Currie said:


> I appreciate you sharing this. I am using the hybrid approach too (thanks to you) and have been absolutely thrilled with the results. I think last time you were using a Max Brightness of 5500. I am using 5000. I'm not familiar with your projector but I assume that a laser value of 50 is on the low side (hence the Max Brightness value of 2400)?


Yes, normally I was at 85 or 90 laser for UHD playback with either 2020SDR or 2020HDR/high max brightness value from the Radiance.


At 2400, I can reduce laser to around 50... this creates a sense of greater _apparent_ contrast. Smart than I can tell me, but it seems I'm lowering the overall black floor of the projector output while the non-linear HDR intensity mapping settings are providing higher intensity color and peak brightness.


I'll still be experimenting with different values, but the point is if you have both the 5000 (or JVC 4500) and the Radiance, you should take a Saturday afternoon and experiment a bit. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the variety of approaches you can take.


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> Yes, normally I was at 85 or 90 laser for UHD playback with either 2020SDR or 2020HDR/high max brightness value from the Radiance.
> 
> 
> At 2400, I can reduce laser to around 50... this creates a sense of greater _apparent_ contrast. Smart than I can tell me, but it seems I'm lowering the overall black floor of the projector output while the non-linear HDR intensity mapping settings are providing higher intensity color and peak brightness.
> 
> 
> I'll still be experimenting with different values, but the point is if you have both the 5000 (or JVC 4500) and the Radiance, you should take a Saturday afternoon and experiment a bit. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the variety of approaches you can take.


I tried using a lower Max Brightness value (e.g. 2600) and even with the JVC's 2020 filter in the light path, there was a lot of clipping in bright areas. Too bad the curve parameters don't do much in HDR mode otherwise I might be able to fix it. It's fun to try though (and I may try a value in the 3000's today).


----------



## thrang

Ian_Currie said:


> I tried using a lower Max Brightness value (e.g. 2600) and even with the JVC's 2020 filter in the light path, there was a lot of clipping in bright areas. Too bad the curve parameters don't do much in HDR mode otherwise I might be able to fix it. It's fun to try though (and I may try a value in the 3000's today).


Yeah no idea how this would work with the 4500 - and I think the processing technology is very different between the 5000 and the 4500.

The JVC does not have the equivalent of a Contrast HDR slider, correct?


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> Yeah no idea how this would work with the 4500 - and I think the processing technology is very different between the 5000 and the 4500.
> 
> The JVC does not have the equivalent of a Contrast HDR slider, correct?


The only thing I can think of that would apply is that the HDR Gamma has 3 sliders to adjust the dark, mid and bright colors respectively. Hmm, maybe I can try playing with that.


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## Kris Deering

I don't have a 4500 here anymore but I can't think of any reason why you would use the normal HDR processing of the JVC AND the Radiance. I would just use the Radiance and send via SDR. This should deliver better performance all around.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> I don't have a 4500 here anymore but I can't think of any reason why you would use the normal HDR processing of the JVC AND the Radiance. I would just use the Radiance and send via SDR. This should deliver better performance all around.


At least with the 5000, it works better than sending SDR2020... and the 5000 processes the signal differently with or without the HDR flag, so the color renders more accurately with this approach.

I recall that WAAY back in the beginning, the original approach of IM was to in fact send HDR2020 not SDR.


----------



## Kris Deering

With the 5000ES its makes sense simply because the 5000ES won't do wider than 709 color gamut if it is sent an SDR signal. The 4500 doesn't have this issue. I don't like the idea of stacking tone maps, especially ones that aren't that great as a baseline (Sony AND JVC). But in your case you don't have a choice if you want to preserve the widest color gamut possible.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> With the 5000ES its makes sense simply because the 5000ES won't do wider than 709 color gamut if it is sent an SDR signal. The 4500 doesn't have this issue. I don't like the idea of stacking tone maps, especially ones that aren't that great as a baseline (Sony AND JVC). But in your case you don't have a choice if you want to preserve the widest color gamut possible.


We posted together it seems...

I stumbled into this trying to see why things felt non-optimal, and confirmed over a month ago from two Sony engineers this is how it works.

You can make it look fantastic however

I am curious if Lumagen knows/knew this because I never saw the recommendation to use hdr2020 to Sony projectors, which I’m sure make up a significant portion of their base.


----------



## Roland Janus

I have a Nvidia Shield which unfortunately doesn't have auto colorspace yet.
I have to switch to 709 for Blu-ray and 2020 for UHD, very annoying.

Can the radiance be used to keep the shield on 2020 and still play sdr and hdr properly, considering that the sony 5000 will switch into a 2020 mode?

-roland


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> I have a Nvidia Shield which unfortunately doesn't have auto colorspace yet.
> I have to switch to 709 for Blu-ray and 2020 for UHD, very annoying.
> 
> Can the radiance be used to keep the shield on 2020 and still play sdr and hdr properly, considering that the sony 5000 will switch into a 2020 mode?
> 
> -roland


Note that UHD SDR sources use Rec 709 color space (for commercial releases that I know of), and UHD HDR sources use Rec 2020. Does the NVidea correctly output SDR as SDR and HDR as HDR?

Since the Pro is set to output SDR 2020 for HDR sources (if you have followed our recommendations), you should be able to use the NVidea left in 2020 color space output mode. This does assume it correctly converts the Rec 709 to Rec2020 data when appropriate.

An SDR source sent as SDR 2020 the Pro would still use CMS1 (same as for HDR source), but since it is SDR mode HDR IM would be disabled. For HDR the HDR IM would be enabled and would still use CMS1 in Rec 2020 color space. If the Rec 2020 is reasonably accurate (calibrated or not), then both HDR and SDR material should be able to be made to look excellent.

I have not seen this, but believe it should work well and eliminate your need to manually change the NVidea mode assuming it correctly outputs SDR/HDR modes, and correctly converts 709 to 2020. If you use this, please report back on how well it works.


----------



## jrp

We posted a new release today. It has some nice tweaks:

Beta 042218- Doubled range for HDR intensity mapping ratio setting. Modified Output HDR menu so as to not obscure view while setting Display Max LIght. Added extra check of output device EDID for 600mhz capability after seeing a couple of devices reporting 300Mhz support in one part of their EDID and 600Mhz in another section---these devices are now detected as 600Mhz capable. Added Kaleidescape setup menu under Other: I/O Setup: Kaleidescape for a Strato/Co-Star switching setup in order to automatically switch to the active device (also requires buying the "Co-Star for Lumagen" feature. Contact Kaleidescape for details). To use the Pro's Strato/Co-Star switching solution the Strato needs to be on an 18Ghz input and the Co-Star must on an input card different from the Strato. Added new input aspect ratios of 2.0 and 2.2, selectable on Lumagen remote with Alt then 4:3 and Alt then 16:9, respectively. These two new input aspects can also be detected with auto aspect feature when enabled. Also added separate sizing memory for the 2.40 input aspect (alt- 2.35) which had been sharing sizing parameters with 2.35. Added an option to reduce maximum bandwidth under Output: Styles: StyleX: HDMI Format: Reduce Max. When enabled the blanking time is reduced by ~5% so the original picture is not being resized and if the display accepts non-standard timings this can be a solution in some cases where the video connection is unreliable or slow to get picture.

======= 

We have had requests for a while to add 2.0 and 2.2 input aspects, but sounds like there is more material on Netflix using these aspects. So we added these in this release.

The ability to lower the clock rate for 18 GHz output by about 5% has helped several projector setups having issues at 18 GHz become solid due to the slightly reduced clock rate.

We have also added support for the Kaleidescape "Co-Star for Lumagen" feature. This allows a Strato to control another Kaleidescape player so they share a common control and OSD. Contact Kaleidescape for more information.

We also have added support for some devices with errors in their EDID for 18 GHz so the Pro treats them as 18 GHz (=600 MHz, even though in one EDID field they report their maximum clock rate as 300 MHz).

===== 

Some of you will be happy to hear that Patrick is now working on a HDR IM "desaturation" control.


----------



## Mark_H

Roland Janus said:


> I have a Nvidia Shield which unfortunately doesn't have auto colorspace yet.
> I have to switch to 709 for Blu-ray and 2020 for UHD, very annoying.
> 
> Can the radiance be used to keep the shield on 2020 and still play sdr and hdr properly, considering that the sony 5000 will switch into a 2020 mode?
> 
> -roland


If you are interested in switching devices, I believe the Apple TV 4K supports auto colourspace/frame rate and auto SDR/HDR...


----------



## Surfdrifter

jrp said:


> We posted a new release today. It has some nice tweaks:
> 
> 
> 
> Beta 042218- Doubled range for HDR intensity mapping ratio setting. Modified Output HDR menu so as to not obscure view while setting Display Max LIght. Added extra check of output device EDID for 600mhz capability after seeing a couple of devices reporting 300Mhz support in one part of their EDID and 600Mhz in another section---these devices are now detected as 600Mhz capable. Added Kaleidescape setup menu under Other: I/O Setup: Kaleidescape for a Strato/Co-Star switching setup in order to automatically switch to the active device (also requires buying the "Co-Star for Lumagen" feature. Contact Kaleidescape for details). To use the Pro's Strato/Co-Star switching solution the Strato needs to be on an 18Ghz input and the Co-Star must on an input card different from the Strato. Added new input aspect ratios of 2.0 and 2.2, selectable on Lumagen remote with Alt then 4:3 and Alt then 16:9, respectively. These two new input aspects can also be detected with auto aspect feature when enabled. Also added separate sizing memory for the 2.40 input aspect (alt- 2.35) which had been sharing sizing parameters with 2.35. Added an option to reduce maximum bandwidth under Output: Styles: StyleX: HDMI Format: Reduce Max. When enabled the blanking time is reduced by ~5% so the original picture is not being resized and if the display accepts non-standard timings this can be a solution in some cases where the video connection is unreliable or slow to get picture.
> 
> 
> 
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> We have had requests for a while to add 2.0 and 2.2 input aspects, but sounds like there is more material on Netflix using these aspects. So we added these in this release.
> 
> 
> 
> The ability to lower the clock rate for 18 GHz output by about 5% has helped several projector setups having issues at 18 GHz become solid due to the slightly reduced clock rate.
> 
> 
> 
> We have also added support for the Kaleidescape "Co-Star for Lumagen" feature. This allows a Strato to control another Kaleidescape player so they share a common control and OSD. Contact Kaleidescape for more information.
> 
> 
> 
> We also have added support for some devices with errors in their EDID for 18 GHz so the Pro treats them as 18 GHz (=600 MHz, even though in one EDID field they report their maximum clock rate as 300 MHz).
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you will be happy to hear that Patrick is now working on a HDR IM "desaturation" control.




Great tweaks! Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

@jrp


Hi Jim- is the reduce max bandwidth tweaked further since I last tested a few weeks back? Worth trying again with the new microcode and the 5000?


The 300/600 fix - presuming the issue I have with the 18ghz output through the Trinnov (where passing the Radiance output through the Altitude 18ghz I/O was being read as a 9ghz path by the Radiance) is addressed with this firmware?


Anything on the roadmap for frame by frame IM and PIP?


Thanks, and nice update


----------



## Rod#S

Is the Pro capable of mixing and matching video and audio from different inputs? For example say I have Oppo 205 used for listening to music from a NAS on one input and on another I have a DVR. Could I listen to music from the Oppo but watch the video signal from the DVR?


----------



## thrang

Rod#S said:


> Is the Pro capable of mixing and matching video and audio from different inputs? For example say I have Oppo 205 used for listening to music from a NAS on one input and on another I have a DVR. Could I listen to music from the Oppo but watch the video signal from the DVR?


No

Per your similar question in the Trinnov thread - the ability to choose a different audio source for a given hdmi input is actually in the Altitude GUI but it is disabled. Purportedly coming in a future firmware update.


----------



## Rod#S

Thanks thrang. So at least one device on the market, in theory will have this ability then.


----------



## thrang

Rod#S said:


> Thanks thrang. So at least one device on the market, in theory will have this ability then.


Pretty sure my Marantz 8801 from many years ago let you choose analog or optical audio sources for a given HDMI source (though not another HDMI sources' audio).

Useful when watching sports featuring annoying announcers...


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> @jrp
> 
> 1) is the reduce max bandwidth tweaked further since I last tested a few weeks back? Worth trying again with the new microcode and the 5000?
> 
> 2) The 300/600 fix - presuming the issue I have with the 18ghz output through the Trinnov (where passing the Radiance output through the Altitude 18ghz I/O was being read as a 9ghz path by the Radiance) is addressed with this firmware?
> 
> 3)Anything on the roadmap for frame by frame IM and PIP?


1) Unlikely to make a difference. Three of the four VW5000ES systems we know about that had lock on issues were fixed by the clock rate reduction, but yours (the forth one) was not. The clock rate reduction in this release is the same as the manual setting you have already tried. So continue to use the "HDMI splitter" that has been working for you as a buffer in front of your VW5000ES.

2) I believe the Trinnov has the same error in their EDID (max clock rate report). If so, it will now report as 18GHz by the Pro (assuming no other issues in its EDID). You can check by looking at "Info Pg 2" (press OK twice with no Pro OSD on the screen) with the new firmware. See if it reports "18G:Y" for the output connected to the Trinnov.

3) We believe we will add an internally calculated "dynamic MaxCLL" to the Radiance Pro software, but have not yet committed to do this. I consider this likely to become a high-priority for us though.

The PiP function for 444X models is on the to-do list, but at this time it is not on the high-priority list. This could change. So I don't have a good time frame for you on PiP.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> 1) Three of the four VW5000ES systems we know about that had lock on issues were fixed by the clock rate reduction.


Jim just to clarify, is that fix referring to stability with the original 18 ghz microcode, or the newer code?



jrp said:


> 3) We believe we will add an internally calculated "dynamic MaxCLL" to the Radiance Pro software, but have not yet committed to do this. I consider this likely to become a high-priority for us though.


I would think this is potentially a serious benefit!


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> Note that UHD SDR sources use Rec 709 color space (for commercial releases that I know of), and UHD HDR sources use Rec 2020. Does the NVidea correctly output SDR as SDR and HDR as HDR?
> 
> Since the Pro is set to output SDR 2020 for HDR sources (if you have followed our recommendations), you should be able to use the NVidea left in 2020 color space output mode. This does assume it correctly converts the Rec 709 to Rec2020 data when appropriate.
> 
> An SDR source sent as SDR 2020 the Pro would still use CMS1 (same as for HDR source), but since it is SDR mode HDR IM would be disabled. For HDR the HDR IM would be enabled and would still use CMS1 in Rec 2020 color space. If the Rec 2020 is reasonably accurate (calibrated or not), then both HDR and SDR material should be able to be made to look excellent.
> 
> I have not seen this, but believe it should work well and eliminate your need to manually change the NVidea mode assuming it correctly outputs SDR/HDR modes, and correctly converts 709 to 2020. If you use this, please report back on how well it works.


Actually, I own the Sony 5000, which what I've read recently is not supposed be used with SD2020. You saw those comments?

Yes, when playing Blu-ray, the output is SD2020 and the projector uses a 2020 mode.
How about calibrating then for both situations?

-roland


----------



## Roland Janus

Mark_H said:


> If you are interested in switching devices, I believe the Apple TV 4K supports auto colourspace/frame rate and auto SDR/HDR...


would be a choice indeed, but I already have enough media players…


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> We posted together it seems...
> 
> I stumbled into this trying to see why things felt non-optimal, and confirmed over a month ago from two Sony engineers this is how it works.
> 
> You can make it look fantastic however
> 
> I am curious if Lumagen knows/knew this because I never saw the recommendation to use hdr2020 to Sony projectors, which I’m sure make up a significant portion of their base.


Jim:

Can you comment on this for us 5000ES owners....


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> I’m on travel this week but can post some examples when I get home next week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Can you please look into that?


----------



## fatjulio

jrp said:


> We posted a new release today. It has some nice tweaks:
> 
> ...Added new input aspect ratios of 2.0 and 2.2, selectable on Lumagen remote with Alt then 4:3 and Alt then 16:9, respectively. These two new input aspects can also be detected with auto aspect feature when enabled. Also added separate sizing memory for the 2.40 input aspect (alt- 2.35) which had been sharing sizing parameters with 2.35...
> 
> =======
> 
> We have had requests for a while to add 2.0 and 2.2 input aspects, but sounds like there is more material on Netflix using these aspects. So we added these in this release.


Will the older Radiance models get this too? I have a 2021 and would like it.


----------



## thrang

Just updated to the new firmware - couple of quick notes:

- Radiance now see the Trinnov Altitude as an 18 ghz output device so thats fixed. thanks

- Reduced timing + 4096 output results in a output-side green vertical line screen center - this was something I experienced with some, but not all, the custom timings I was testing offline if you recall.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Rod#S said:


> Is the Pro capable of mixing and matching video and audio from different inputs? For example say I have Oppo 205 used for listening to music from a NAS on one input and on another I have a DVR. Could I listen to music from the Oppo but watch the video signal from the DVR?


My Theta Digital CBIV-A permits me to do this, as does prior versions of the CB that I have had, if my memory is any good!


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> Jim:
> 
> Can you comment on this for us 5000ES owners....


I have commented before on devices that do not correctly allow Rec 2020 color space for SDR before, and/or limit maximum brightness for SDR sources, but did not know the VW5000ES falls in this category.

My previous comments hold. That is, you may be forced to set the Pro output to HDR2020 in order to get either the maximum light output, or the Rec 2020 color space, or both. I find this a poor design decision on the part of the TV/projector manufacturer, but it is out of our control.

NOTE: There can be design issues involved for the maximum light output, since the average light output of a true SDR source is likely closer to the maximum than it is for HDR. So the manufacturers may be erring on the the conservative side of preventing a situation that might damage the TV or projector due to too much average power, or drawing more power than the power supplies are designed to produce. Still I think they choose the easy way, and definitely not the best way.

Unfortunately the projector designer's decision then forces the Pro output Colorspace to be set to HDR2020 (to get maximum light output), which in turn requires the Display Max Light setting be much higher, which in turn minimizes the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping's ability to improve the image. So the choice comes down to IMO better Tone Mapping with less light (and sounds like in the VW5000ES case less color Gamut), verses more light and less Tone Mapping control.

I understand why people would choose more light and less control for HDR. On the other hand if you calibrate using the Pro's 3D LUT you can get the colors looking much closer to Rec 2020 than a reduced color Gamut would provide by default. So then it comes down mostly to maximum light, and often you need to temper maximum light to insure that the most important criteria - black level - is set optimally.

It sounds like Thrang is doing a good job of minimizing the effect of the VW5000ES internal Tone Mapping to allow the Pro Tone Mapping to have more control, and getting an excellent picture as a result. So his approach is certainly a reasonable one.


----------



## jrp

fatjulio said:


> Will the older Radiance models get this too? I have a 2021 and would like it.


The 2.0 and 2.2 input aspects are under consideration for the 2XXX models, so it might happen for these. No commitment to do this though.


----------



## Rod#S

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> My Theta Digital CBIV-A permits me to do this, as does prior versions of the CB that I have had, if my memory is any good!


Thanks Steve. So based on what you say and thrang about the Trinnov seemingly having the ability but currently not active it comes down to the choice of the manufacturer. For the longest time I wasn't sure if this was even possible but it's good to see it happening, even if in the minority of device implementations.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Roland Janus said:


> I have a Nvidia Shield which unfortunately doesn't have auto colorspace yet.
> I have to switch to 709 for Blu-ray and 2020 for UHD, very annoying.
> 
> Can the radiance be used to keep the shield on 2020 and still play sdr and hdr properly, considering that the sony 5000 will switch into a 2020 mode?


I don't use my Shield to view SDR709 content. So it is permanently set to BT.2020 10bit. Yesterday I tried some SDR709 movies that way. I haven't measured it, but the colors seemed to be correct with SDR2020 on CMS1.


----------



## thrang

Just a couple more shots of the hybrid IM approach...same settings as reported earlier, except ratio at 0




















_(full disclosure - I adjusted the tint on the above images to better represent what I am seeing, as my iPhone was adding a cool cast to these shots for some reason)_



















Here's a close up shot of the stairs in the rear of the BR2049 shot - there is more detail there (and visible from the seating location) then the overall screen grab shows (again, my iPhone is incorrectly rendering the cyan tinge in the highlights which is not evident in person:











Again, screen shots can get you close, but never really represent precisely what is seen in the real, but hopefully this is sufficiently helpfully indicative... (I've never put those three words together before I don't believe...)


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> Just a couple more shots of the hybrid IM approach...same settings as reported earlier, except ratio at 0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(full disclosure - I adjusted the tint on the above images to better represent what I am seeing, as my iPhone was adding a cool cast to these shots for some reason)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, screen shots can get you close, but never really represent precisely what is seen in the real, but hopefully this is sufficiently helpfully indicative... (I've never put those three words together before I don't believe...)


Looks spectacular Greg


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## ccool96

thrang said:


> Just a couple more shots of the hybrid IM approach...same settings as reported earlier, except ratio at 0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(full disclosure - I adjusted the tint on the above images to better represent what I am seeing, as my iPhone was adding a cool cast to these shots for some reason)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a close up shot of the stairs in the rear of the BR2049 shot - there is more detail there (and visible from the seating location) then the overall screen grab shows (again, my iPhone is incorrectly rendering the cyan tinge in the highlights which is not evident in person:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, screen shots can get you close, but never really represent precisely what is seen in the real, but hopefully this is sufficiently helpfully indicative... (I've never put those three words together before I don't believe...)




Could you share your IM setting? I saw where you reduced your IM display nit to 2400 and I saw your Sony projector settings, but I couldn’t find you IM setting in the lumagen for Trans / Shape / etc. are you just using the original recommended setting from lumagen? 

I switched to the hybrid approach a few months back after you and others recommended it, and also found it yielded better results than I could get with outputting SDR2020 from the Lumagen. 

Thanks! 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ronb23

*Newbie to lumagen products*

please forgive me if this was already answered in previous post.
I just ordered the 4242 with 18gb in/out as suggested the my equipment can handle.
I have oppo 205 / optoma uhz65 / certified 18gb cables
from some of the post that I have read and trying to not get more confused.
I saw some Hybrid settings and others - I thought that once setup and calibrated all will be awesome.
I watch a mix of Dish network 1080i, blu ray, and hdr.
not to sure what my nits are for this projector, but I do see major differences from disk to disk in HDR mode.
I do know the strengths and weaknesses of the uhz65 - 100% rec 709 / 73% of BT2020

So with all things stated 
how do get the best out of SDR and HDR world


----------



## Roland Janus

KarlKlammer said:


> I don't use my Shield to view SDR709 content. So it is permanently set to BT.2020 10bit. Yesterday I tried some SDR709 movies that way. I haven't measured it, but the colors seemed to be correct with SDR2020 on CMS1.


Looks ok, but I'd like to calibrate like that.
What's the approach for that?

I also think due CMS1 used for SDR and HDR that I would need to use a different CMS and a memory?


----------



## thrang

ccool96 said:


> Could you share your IM setting? I saw where you reduced your IM display nit to 2400 and I saw your Sony projector settings, but I couldn’t find you IM setting in the lumagen for Trans / Shape / etc. are you just using the original recommended setting from lumagen?
> 
> I switched to the hybrid approach a few months back after you and others recommended it, and also found it yielded better results than I could get with outputting SDR2020 from the Lumagen.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hi Chris

The IM shape and transition controls have reduced functionality in this mode so I haven’t experimented so much with them yet - using 2 or 3 for both I believe.

Ratio ranges +- 15 generally depending upon content. Gamma 0-1, rarely 2.

Black level 0 so far...


----------



## KarlKlammer

Roland Janus said:


> Looks ok, but I'd like to calibrate like that.
> What's the approach for that?


The Shield seems to work like my satellite box which puts the Rec.709 primaries into a container within BT.2020. So you only would need to calibrate BT.2020. I think there are test patterns for Rec.709 primaries witin BT.2020 on Sony UHD BDs that you could use for verification. 


> I also think due CMS1 used for SDR and HDR that I would need to use a different CMS and a memory?


IM is only active when the Radiance receives the HDR flag. Otherwise it falls back to Gamma 2.4. I could use the same CMS and memory.


----------



## mskreis

Roku Ultra issues - recently my Roku is reporting that my display is not capable of 4K HDR at 60 fps. I can override auto detect for a viewing session but find I have to do that on a near daily basis. This is a new issue and I don’t know if it’s the Roku or Lumagen. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Bruzonsky

mskreis said:


> Roku Ultra issues - recently my Roku is reporting that my display is not capable of 4K HDR at 60 fps. I can override auto detect for a viewing session but find I have to do that on a near daily basis. This is a new issue and I don’t know if it’s the Roku or Lumagen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have a Roku 4k, Radiance Pro, and Sony 5000ES and I do not have this issue.


----------



## mskreis

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I have a Roku 4k, Radiance Pro, and Sony 5000ES and I do not have this issue.




Well puzzling. Mine did not have this issue until recently and I’m not sure which fw update resulted in the change. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mikigio

Good morning, the new Firmware seems to present a partial return to the black screen problem on LG Oled.

About two months ago I mentioned a problem occurred on Oled Tv black screen in relation to BluRay, Apple TV etc., Sky etc ..... even the pattern generator was no longer usable.

With the penultimate firmware the problem was completely resolved, now with the latest firmware back to show up on SkyQ sometimes, to get back the image serves Alt Prev.

Question: if I make a downgrade return to the operation condition of the penultimate firmware?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mikigio said:


> Good morning, the new Firmware seems to present a partial return to the black screen problem on LG Oled.
> 
> About two months ago I mentioned a problem occurred on Oled Tv black screen in relation to BluRay, Apple TV etc., Sky etc ..... even the pattern generator was no longer usable.
> 
> With the penultimate firmware the problem was completely resolved, now with the latest firmware back to show up on SkyQ sometimes, to get back the image serves Alt Prev.
> 
> Question: if I make a downgrade return to the operation condition of the penultimate firmware?


you can go back to previous firmware with no issue if you want. It will not affect your configuration


----------



## mikigio

Gordon Fraser said:


> you can go back to previous firmware with no issue if you want. It will not affect your configuration


Ok, thank you.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 042318*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 042318*
Fix for the new Kaleidescape Strato/Co-Star setup menu. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 050418*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 050418*
Added new HDR intensity mapping parameter to allow desaturation of extremely bright HDR colors when outputting HDR in an SDR container. 
The new setting is labeled High Luminance Desat (or 'HDSat' for short when visually editing) and is in the input HDR menu. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

The 050418 release adds a HDR desaturation parameter for very bright objects. Patrick came up with a better algorithm for the desaturation and it works well in our testing so far. It is designed to allow some desaturation of intense colors without being too heavy handed in the effect of the control.

The range is 0 to 15 and we have chosen to set it at a default value of 4. With a setting of four, using Mad Max Fury Road as a reference, the lightning at 28:53 becomes near white, while the burnt-orange flames in the car explosion at 28:29 remain burnt-orange. The cyan in the fender scene (beginning of movie, but not sure time stamp), and the cyan in the muzzle flash at 38:13 are desaturated toward white to some degree.

As the HDSat value is increased toward its maximum value of 15, the fender and muzzle flash become near white, and the burnt-orange flames start to show some yellow.

The HDSat parameter does not affect middle intensities or low intensities and is based on the source nit level. So titles with a MaxCLL in the 1000 range are not affected by the control. This is consistent with the feedback we have received that only the very high nit titles benefit from desaturation of the highest intensities. 

This is the first release with the desaturation control and there may be some changes. Please give us your feedback on the HDSat control to let us know if you are liking the results and if you agree that the control does not need to change the saturation of sources in the 1000 nit MaxCLL range.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Hi Jim!
I made a few tests with my TV. And if the things I saw there look similar on the big screen, I think I will like the HDSat Option a lot! 

Here are some screenshots from Mad Max (HDSat 0, 4, 12) and Batman vs Superman (HDSat 0, 4, 12, LightSpace)


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## KarlKlammer

HDSat also affects the 1000 nits titles. And what I saw solves some other issues for me too. 

These are some screenshots from the Samsung Clip "Chasing the light" (HDSat 0, 12, LightSpace). Especially the sun and the surrounding area looked odd until now. 
Also there are some screenshots from the LG Clip "Cymatic Jazz" (0, 4, 12, LightSpace). Those LED cubes always looked a little oversaturated to me.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer:

Thanks for the feedback on the new desaturation feature, and info on 1000 nit titles being affected. I had not expected much visible effect at 1000 nits, but it is useful that there is some tuning possible for 1000 nit titles since they are the majority of HDR releases.

If anyone else has comments or suggestions on the new desaturation feature, please let us know.


----------



## LJG

What happens with HDsat when outputting HDR in HDR container?


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> What happens with HDsat when outputting HDR in HDR container?


We felt that with output Colorspace = HDR that the TV/projector is already doing it own tone mapping and desaturation and doing another stage of desaturation in the Pro would likely be at cross purpose to what the TV/Projector is doing. So in the current release the desaturation is disabled when the output Colorspace = HDR.

However, if anyone has a good argument that desaturation should be enabled for this case, we can certainly change our minds and allow the desaturation to be enabled when the the output Colorspace = HDR.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> We felt that with output Colorspace = HDR that the TV/projector is already doing it own tone mapping and desaturation and doing another stage of desaturation in the Pro would likely be at cross purpose to what the TV/Projector is doing. So in the current release the desaturation is disabled when the output Colorspace = HDR.
> 
> However, if anyone has a good argument that desaturation should be enabled for this case, we can certainly change our minds and allow the desaturation to be enabled when the the output Colorspace = HDR.


if there is a benefit for e.g. Sony 5000 owners, who actually have to use HDR from what I've read, then yes, it would make sense.

-roland


----------



## madshi

jrp said:


> We felt that with output Colorspace = HDR that the TV/projector is already doing it own tone mapping and desaturation and doing another stage of desaturation in the Pro would likely be at cross purpose to what the TV/Projector is doing. So in the current release the desaturation is disabled when the output Colorspace = HDR.
> 
> However, if anyone has a good argument that desaturation should be enabled for this case, we can certainly change our minds and allow the desaturation to be enabled when the the output Colorspace = HDR.


IMHO, desaturation (as part of tone mapping) has a very specific scientific purpose and should only be used for that exact purpose. Consequently, in any situation, for any pixel where desaturation helps avoiding/reducing RGB overflows, a certain amount of desaturation should probably be applied. Regardless of which color space or transfer function you're outputting to the display. But for any pixels which don't ever overflow, desaturation should always be completely disabled.

Just my 2 cents, of course.


----------



## LJG

Roland Janus said:


> if there is a benefit for e.g. Sony 5000 owners, who actually have to use HDR from what I've read, then yes, it would make sense.
> 
> -roland


Exactly


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> if there is a benefit for e.g. Sony 5000 owners, who actually have to use HDR from what I've read, then yes, it would make sense.
> 
> -roland


This is the question I was implying. So if anyone, including VW5000ES owners, have feedback on needing desaturation in the Pro while outputting HDR to the projector/TV, please let us know.

Specific scene examples would be helpful.


----------



## Eventidal

Desaturation would be helpful for IM and especially while using HDR2020 instead of SDR2020 in the Pro. The colours are way oversaturated while everything else seems perfect on a Sony 885ES.


----------



## LJG

Jim what would be the harm if the Desat can be turned on/off completely? Then we could let you know if it looks good with HDR out. For Sony projectors HDR out is the best option.


----------



## jrp

The 050518 release just posted now enables the new HDR desaturation feature for either Output CMS Colorspace=SDR or Colorspace=HDR. 

Default is still 4 out of the range of 0 to 15. You can change the HDSat parameter to 0 to eliminate the desaturation effect completely.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> The 050518 release just posted now enables the new HDR desaturation feature for either Output CMS Colorspace=SDR or Colorspace=HDR.
> 
> 
> 
> Default is still 4 out of the range of 0 to 15. You can change the HDSat parameter to 0 to eliminate the desaturation effect completely.




Hi Jim, this new feature is brilliant and works well for movies, which are very light. However some movies look oversaturated I set the HDsat to 0 but still it’s very oversaturated:
https://imgur.com/a/tTMmHiE
HDR content Spy movie, using IM in SDR709, ColorSpace2 in Sony
Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KarlKlammer

@jrp
Could you please provide a newer revision for Tech Tip 11?
I guess ZY518 would be different now. And ZQI52 is missing.


----------



## madshi

SoulOfUniverse said:


> However some movies look oversaturated I set the HDsat to 0 but still it’s very oversaturated


I think there's a misunderstanding here:

The new desaturation algorithm is only for very specific situations where overbright pixels are tone mapped down. All pixels which are not overbright are not affected at all by the new desat algo. That is exactly as intended.

What you're describing sounds like a movie which was mastered with an overall much too high saturation level. Of course it would be possible to offer a setting/algorithm to "fix" such a problem. But that's a *completely* different topic. The new desaturation algo introduced in the latest Lumagen firmware was never meant to fix movies which were mastered with an overall much too high saturation level.


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim, this new feature is brilliant and works well for movies, which are very light. However some movies look oversaturated I set the HDsat to 0 but still it’s very oversaturated:
> https://imgur.com/a/tTMmHiE
> HDR content Spy movie, using IM in SDR709, ColorSpace2 in Sony
> Thank you


To add to what madshi said, I want to make sure you understand that the HDSat = 0 is *no* desaturation, and HDSat = 15 is maximum desaturation.

As madshi says, only pixels that are very bright and highly saturated are affected by the new desaturation feature. Colorful pixels of moderate intensity are not affected at all.


----------



## marion34

it s very good but some part of picture are saturate some part of pixel are oversaturated :

leon
lalalande the skin is oversaturate
murder on orient express the skin is great but sometimes it s red skin on hight light

config projector
hdr 2020 to sur 2020
hd sat 15
and nits 200 nits(on radiance) for 35 real nits on screen


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## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> To add to what madshi said, I want to make sure you understand that the HDSat = 0 is *no* desaturation, and HDSat = 15 is maximum desaturation.
> 
> 
> 
> As madshi says, only pixels that are very bright and highly saturated are affected by the new desaturation feature. Colorful pixels of moderate intensity are not affected at all.




Hi Jim thank you, but I have a feeling all movies are now slightly more saturated, which most of the titles are showing great, but probably this one I’ve mentioned been badly mastered at studios and doesn’t look natural. Will check more other titles, which I know very good. But checked cartoon Sing, and it shows much better as it was very undersaturated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jabz

Hi I pretty much stopped reading the forum after applying Beta 121217 and using the IM feature to enjoy some 4K UHD watching.

Now that I have watched a majority of my 4K UHD's, I want to upgrade my Pro to the latest release and get up to speed on the latest release.
I have a Sony VW520/665. Settings on the projector I set HDR= OFF, and Colourspace= BT2020 When using the IM feature on the Lumagen.

What additional settings/improvements have been made, and what other/or existing settings should I be using to improve the viewing of 4K HDR material?
thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

I played with the new desaturation for just a little while last night. I mainly used Batman VS Superman and Mad Max as these tend to be the main titles people look at for this issue. With the default 4 it made a very small difference with the test clips we typically see from MM, but I thought going all the way to 12 or higher was too much and started taking too much color away from the scenes. The same thing happed with BVS. I found 8 to be a better compromise. It preserved the color tones better but still gave appreciable results with the clips.


----------



## madshi

Kris Deering said:


> I played with the new desaturation for just a little while last night. I mainly used Batman VS Superman and Mad Max as these tend to be the main titles people look at for this issue. With the default 4 it made a very small difference with the test clips we typically see from MM, but I thought going all the way to 12 or higher was too much and started taking too much color away from the scenes. The same thing happed with BVS. I found 8 to be a better compromise. It preserved the color tones better but still gave appreciable results with the clips.


What's the max possible value in the Lumagen settings? FWIW, "a bit more than 50%" is the desaturation strength I liked most in madVR, as an overall compromise. But it's really hard deciding on one specific value. E.g. for the green spear scene in BvS, I prefer a rather high desaturation strength, but for Mad Max explosions, such a setting would make explosions look awfully pale, so finding a good compromise is not easy.


----------



## KarlKlammer

The maximum possible setting for desaturation is 15.
After testing HDSat on my TV a few days ago I watched the same scenes with my projector. And this is the closest IM has ever been to Arve or LightSpace in those scenes. 
At first I also thought, 8 would be the suitable setting for me. But I took a closer look again at the Mad Max scene witth the lightning bolt. The flames in the foreground lose their cyan tint completely with 8 while the lightning bolt loses it with 12. So I decided to stay with 12. But going above 12 is too much for me.
But as with all other settings too, this might be something for personal taste.


----------



## arthurli

I have one problem with the latest fw,when turn on hdr mapping when watching UHD bd, the screen appear noisy and blurred. Turn hdr mapping to off, everything return normally


----------



## Kris Deering

madshi said:


> What's the max possible value in the Lumagen settings? FWIW, "a bit more than 50%" is the desaturation strength I liked most in madVR, as an overall compromise. But it's really hard deciding on one specific value. E.g. for the green spear scene in BvS, I prefer a rather high desaturation strength, but for Mad Max explosions, such a setting would make explosions look awfully pale, so finding a good compromise is not easy.


Interesting. I found a lower value works better for the spear scene than the MM scenes with the Lumagen. I'm going to settle on 8 for now. Again, other than these two movies, I rarely have any issue with saturation, so I am not going to make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. I watch movies all the time and this problem probably represents less than 1% of viewing time for issues (the slight gamma manipulation from the dynamic iris process in my JVC causes more issues than this), so I'm not gonna sweat it. If I was watching these two movies all the time, maybe I'd care more. I like that it is in the quick adjustment menu for the Lumagen though, easy to just tweak it quickly if you knew you were watching a title like this.


----------



## thrang

Paradoxically, the more controls we have the further away we get from the simple joy of watching...

My top down view is most of these controls have no set and forget mode, so the more options, the more fiddling and the more invasive the whole process becomes

This is the Windows approach to intensity mapping. We need the Apple approach. Perhaps that is frame by frame IM that may be coming. But adding more spices doesn’t always make the dish taste better

And I’m not criticizing Lumagen at all here - they are trying to deal with the mess of all the variables to make this work. But perhapas a different paradigm is needed here.


----------



## marion34

is it possible to have dolby vision news for radiance compatibility


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Paradoxically, the more controls we have the further away we get from the simple joy of watching...
> 
> 
> 
> My top down view is most of these controls have no set and forget mode, so the more options, the more fiddling and the more invasive the whole process becomes
> 
> 
> 
> This is the Windows approach to intensity mapping. We need the Apple approach. Perhaps that is frame by frame IM that may be coming. But adding more spices doesn’t always make the dish taste better
> 
> 
> 
> And I’m not criticizing Lumagen at all here - they are trying to deal with the mess of all the variables to make this work. But perhapas a different paradigm is needed here.




I fell like I’ve gotten to set and forget, but my settings won’t just magically work with everyone else’s. But I don’t feel like I have to adjust them on a movie to movie basis at all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## thrang

I don’t see it Kris... content is too variable. I mean, yes, you can find compromised settings and leave it, but not optimized...

I think you need frame-based analysis to make this truly the transformative (if this is possible; I’m no programmer)


----------



## Kris Deering

Define optimized? I rarely find content that looks compromised and I watch a UHD movie almost every day. 

You're working with a completely different scenario than me though, you're essentially doing two completely different tone maps overlaying each other. So it is probably a lot harder to find a good fit. I'm doing HDR to SDR and I find it extremely rare that something looks "off" in my setup. Granted, it took a lot of time to get there, but I feel like I've subjectively emulated my OLED about as well as I can. 

I also don't feel like content is too variable. It shouldn't be either. Unless you're just trying to achieve some hyper HDR feel for every movie, I just don't see a lot of variation that isn't handled well by the crossover point the Lumagen allows. From low nit titles to the Mad Max's, I feel like my image is very balanced across the spectrum. The last title I saw any kind of anomalies in was The Greatest Showman, but it turns out that was from the dynamic iris functionality of my projector and not IM.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Interesting. I found a lower value works better for the spear scene than the MM scenes with the Lumagen. I'm going to settle on 8 for now. Again, other than these two movies, I rarely have any issue with saturation, so I am not going to make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. I watch movies all the time and this problem probably represents less than 1% of viewing time for issues (the slight gamma manipulation from the dynamic iris process in my JVC causes more issues than this), so I'm not gonna sweat it. If I was watching these two movies all the time, maybe I'd care more. I like that it is in the quick adjustment menu for the Lumagen though, easy to just tweak it quickly if you knew you were watching a title like this.


What are your settings for IM >2500 and


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> What are your settings for IM >2500 and


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> I don't remember off the top of my head, if I power up tonight I'll post them. I have my crossover at 2000 though, not 2500.


Great. Last time you suggested:


>2000 from left to right: -15, 4, 9, 0, 0


----------



## madshi

Kris Deering said:


> Again, other than these two movies, I rarely have any issue with saturation, so I am not going to make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. I watch movies all the time and this problem probably represents less than 1% of viewing time for issues (the slight gamma manipulation from the dynamic iris process in my JVC causes more issues than this), so I'm not gonna sweat it. If I was watching these two movies all the time, maybe I'd care more.


It's currently only dramatically obvious in a few rare movies/scenes. However, I bet there are a million scenes where although not obvious, this feature will make a clearly visible difference if you compare side-by-side. Furthermore, in the long run I'd expect the trend to go towards 4000nits masters, maybe at some point even 10000nits masters. Which should increase the amount of movies/scenes where saturation could become an obvious problem. So while desaturation might be not the most important thing in the world, I still think it's an important part of tone mapping.



thrang said:


> Paradoxically, the more controls we have the further away we get from the simple joy of watching...
> 
> My top down view is most of these controls have no set and forget mode, so the more options, the more fiddling and the more invasive the whole process becomes
> 
> This is the Windows approach to intensity mapping. We need the Apple approach. Perhaps that is frame by frame IM that may be coming. But adding more spices doesn’t always make the dish taste better
> 
> And I’m not criticizing Lumagen at all here - they are trying to deal with the mess of all the variables to make this work. But perhapas a different paradigm is needed here.


HDR -> SDR tone mapping is not standardized anywhere. Everybody does it differently. So at this point we're all still experimenting with different curves and different formulas. If you want a pefectly tuned solution which works well for all movies out of the box with no options at all (or with all options having a clear and well optimized default value), then come back in a few months/years. For now all the solutions need fine tuning, and user feedback is helpful there, so it makes sense to start with a lot of options, and to thin them out over time based on user feedback.

I don't see why frame by frame analysis would reduce the number of options. Actually, there will probably at least be one more option: Namely to enable or disable frame by frame analysis.


----------



## Dirk44

I can only speek from a simple user and movie geek side, but I really like that lumagen /madvr or arve try clear all the " mistakes " the industry give us by brave new 4K/UHD world.
I see the HDSAT Feature as a mark, what is possible is the near future, if everbody inputs and work together


----------



## Eventidal

Unfortunately the desaturation feature still does not work for IM with HDR2020 output. There is no viewable change.


----------



## thrang

madshi said:


> It's currently only dramatically obvious in a few rare movies/scenes. However, I bet there are a million scenes where although not obvious, this feature will make a clearly visible difference if you compare side-by-side. Furthermore, in the long run I'd expect the trend to go towards 4000nits masters, maybe at some point even 10000nits masters. Which should increase the amount of movies/scenes where saturation could become an obvious problem. So while desaturation might be not the most important thing in the world, I still think it's an important part of tone mapping.
> 
> 
> HDR -> SDR tone mapping is not standardized anywhere. Everybody does it differently. So at this point we're all still experimenting with different curves and different formulas. If you want a pefectly tuned solution which works well for all movies out of the box with no options at all (or with all options having a clear and well optimized default value), then come back in a few months/years. For now all the solutions need fine tuning, and user feedback is helpful there, so it makes sense to start with a lot of options, and to thin them out over time based on user feedback.
> 
> I don't see why frame by frame analysis would reduce the number of options. Actually, there will probably at least be one more option: Namely to enable or disable frame by frame analysis.


In theory, frame-by-frame analysis should provide better automated results than disc-based. Wouldn’t adjusting the tone mapping based on real-time MAXCLL analysis provide more optimized results? Likely with less manual intervention required? I also recall Jim mentioning he’s come across titles with incorrect meta data, so performing frame-based analysis should be more accurate than disc-based meta data.

(I would think....)


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> In theory, frame-by-frame analysis should provide better automated results than disc-based. Wouldn’t adjusting the tone mapping based on real-time MAXCLL analysis provide more optimized results? Likely with less manual intervention required? I also recall Jim mentioning he’s come across titles with incorrect meta data, so performing frame-based analysis should be more accurate than disc-based meta data.
> 
> (I would think....)


I dunno, you see a future of dynamically optimised image, I see a future of odd image pumping artifacts from bad metadata and corner case scenes...

If I were choosing how to spend my Dev budget it would go into working on HDR10+ as a real solution to the problem. Dynamic HDR for what will soon be in the "I can't believe they used to do it like that" bin seems a little futile.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## madshi

thrang said:


> In theory, frame-by-frame analysis should provide better automated results than disc-based. Wouldn’t adjusting the tone mapping based on real-time MAXCLL analysis provide more optimized results? Likely with less manual intervention required? I also recall Jim mentioning he’s come across titles with incorrect meta data, so performing frame-based analysis should be more accurate than disc-based meta data.


Frame-by-frame analysis sure has the potential to improve image quality. But I don't think it will help to reduce manual intervention. Well, that said, I don't know Lumagen's current set of options, so maybe I'm wrong. But I can say that frame-by-frame analysis did nothing to reduce the number of options in madVR.



bobof said:


> I dunno, you see a future of dynamically optimised image, I see a future of odd image pumping artifacts from bad metadata and corner case scenes...
> 
> If I were choosing how to spend my Dev budget it would go into working on HDR10+ as a real solution to the problem.


I'm confused. If you're worried about bad metadata, then why do you tout HDR10+ as being a real solution to the problem? HDR10+ is relying on metadata, while "dynamically optimised image" based on frame-by-frame analysis is not. So it seems to me you probably have this exactly backwards. If the metadata is bad, then HDR10+ will run into trouble, while it doesn't make a difference to frame-by-frame analysis.


----------



## jrp

Eventidal said:


> Unfortunately the desaturation feature does not work for IM with HDR2020 output.


The 050518 release allows the new desaturation control to work with CMS Colorspace = HDR2020 (or HDR709) output.

We did not allow it in the initial desaturation release since we were not certain it would be very useful and so wanted feedback from users first. Since several requested it, and since it is easily disabled (set HDSat = 0), we changed the software to allow desaturation for HDR output.


----------



## Eventidal

Jim-
I cannot see any difference using the HDSat parameters while outputting HDR2020.


----------



## bobof

madshi said:


> I'm confused. If you're worried about bad metadata, then why do you tout HDR10+ as being a real solution to the problem? HDR10+ is relying on metadata, while "dynamically optimised image" based on frame-by-frame analysis is not. So it seems to me you probably have this exactly backwards. If the metadata is bad, then HDR10+ will run into trouble, while it doesn't make a difference to frame-by-frame analysis.


Sorry, I'm confusing you with two issues I see, my message was poor. 

My most recent HDR annoyance is with some content on AppleTV Netflix sending out wildly varying maxCLLs during the program despite not being connected to a DV capable set, which then cause a tone curve switch in Lumagen (bad metadata causing pumping). It's very annoying. 

When I think of dynamic algorithm based HDR I think that I've yet to see a single dynamic contrast / iris / lamp etc type implementation that didn't annoy me enough, quickly enough, that it didn't get disabled within minutes. So for me at least I fear that dynamic frame analysis seems to be destined to be a feature people toil over to develop and improve in a futile effort (as without editorial input it is a bit of a thankless task of coefficient tweakery) only for me to disable it the first time I see it get tripped up. So to me it stands to offer little value.

HDR10+ on the other hand if it is well implemented in content and device should allow the tone curve switches to happen at sensible points in time, all the time (metadata permitting). Implementing HDR10+ gets you a feature tick (dynamic metadata); might get some marketing miles, and with enough critical mass might stop DV getting locked and loaded as the de-facto dynamic metadata solution. HDR10+ making its way into systems in Hollywood execs personal theatres might be a nice way for it to get some more traction.


----------



## madshi

bobof said:


> When I think of dynamic algorithm based HDR I think that I've yet to see a single dynamic contrast / iris / lamp etc type implementation that didn't annoy me enough, quickly enough, that it didn't get disabled within minutes. So for me at least I fear that dynamic frame analysis seems to be destined to be a feature people toil over to develop and improve in a futile effort (as without editorial input it is a bit of a thankless task of coefficient tweakery) only for me to disable it the first time I see it get tripped up. So to me it stands to offer little value.


There are some rather big differences between dynamic iris/lamp adjustments and "dynamic algorithm based HDR". Dynamic iris/lamp adjustments affect the whole frame. Basically you even physically change the amount of light that the projector outputs. Obviously that affects every pixel. In addition to that, neither dynamic irises nor lamp modulation is usually frame-by-frame real time (except when using laser or LED light sources). Which adds another potential problem.

In contrast to that, a well implemented dynamic HDR tone mapping algorithm based on frame-by-frame analysis is not only perfectly real time, it also has the potential to only affect the way overbright pixels are rendered and leave all non-overbright pixels exactly the same. The exact behaviour will depend on the implementation, of course. But if you design the tone mapping curve to only start compressing above a certain pixel brightness level (e.g. 100nits), then regardless of what the frame-by-frame analysis will detect, all pixels below the specified brightness level (e.g. 100nits) will be totally unaffected. That should help a great deal avoiding heavy pumping. Pumping can still occur for overbright pixels, of course, but it shouldn't be too hard to (mostly) avoid that, by using a clever algorithm.



bobof said:


> HDR10+ on the other hand if it is well implemented in content and device should allow the tone curve switches to happen at sensible points in time, all the time (metadata permitting). Implementing HDR10+ gets you a feature tick (dynamic metadata); might get some marketing miles, and with enough critical mass might stop DV getting locked and loaded as the de-facto dynamic metadata solution. HDR10+ making its way into systems in Hollywood execs personal theatres might be a nice way for it to get some more traction.


You are way more optimistic about this than I am. Considering how unreliable maxCLL metadata is (see your very own experience!!), what makes you think that HDR10+ will be any more reliable? It's a metadata solution very similar to maxCLL. I doubt it will be implemented well in content. Maybe the encoding houses will carefully tune the HDR10+ metadata for high-profile titles, but I expect for mid- and low-tier titles the HDR10+ metadata will be auto-calculated by the encoding software, and how well that works you can see by looking at the current maxCLL situation. But let's wait and see...


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> The 050518 release allows the new desaturation control to work with CMS Colorspace = HDR2020 (or HDR709) output.
> 
> We did not allow it in the initial desaturation release since we were not certain it would be very useful and so wanted feedback from users first. Since several requested it, and since it is easily disabled (set HDSat = 0), we changed the software to allow desaturation for HDR output.


Hi Jim

It doesn’t seem to be working for me either with 050518 and hdr out


----------



## bobof

madshi said:


> In contrast to that, a well implemented dynamic HDR tone mapping algorithm based on frame-by-frame analysis is not only perfectly real time, it also has the potential to only affect the way overbright pixels are rendered and leave all non-overbright pixels exactly the same. The exact behaviour will depend on the implementation, of course. But if you design the tone mapping curve to only start compressing above a certain pixel brightness level (e.g. 100nits), then regardless of what the frame-by-frame analysis will detect, all pixels below the specified brightness level (e.g. 100nits) will be totally unaffected. That should help a great deal avoiding heavy pumping. Pumping can still occur for overbright pixels, of course, but it shouldn't be too hard to (mostly) avoid that, by using a clever algorithm.


I get that lamp / iris are perhaps bad examples, and dynamic contrast also to an extent depending on the sophistication of implementation.

This is the bit I struggle with conceptually so I'd like to see what the "state of the art" is. If you design it to only start compressing say above 100nits, and you have a scene that has 1000nits in it, so some curve is applied to those pixels to bring them into range (close to the display peak). And then some 10K highlight comes into view in that scene - what will happen to the curve of the content which is still on screen at 1000nits? It is really hard to see how this can be made to work well without having known in advance to expect it and reserve the headroom. And if the effect of the dynamic algorithm ends up being super-conservative, it might as well perhaps have just been a fixed tone curve and we could have saved some effort!

Of course on a PC you might have some advantage; you could always choose to pre-process the content, and you could do snazzy things like working out good "cut points" to splice in your tone curve adjustments by looking for black frames or obvious scene transitions.

And yes, perhaps I am being optimistic, but surely getting good metadata is the only way to really deal with this correctly. I'd like to think what I saw with the AppleTV was a flat-out bug, but it could just be the result as you say of some automatic processor running on the HDR. I'm surprised so much TV is actually being made in DV, and wonder if this is the result of some sausage machine that is taking HDR in and outputting DV en-masse without user intervention.

In general though I'd prefer real, quantifiable features to things that might be rabbitholes with limited shelf life.


----------



## Eventidal

They just released an update with a fix for HDR2020. You gotta love these people...

Beta 060518


----------



## madshi

bobof said:


> This is the bit I struggle with conceptually so I'd like to see what the "state of the art" is. If you design it to only start compressing say above 100nits, and you have a scene that has 1000nits in it, so some curve is applied to those pixels to bring them into range (close to the display peak). And then some 10K highlight comes into view in that scene - what will happen to the curve of the content which is still on screen at 1000nits? It is really hard to see how this can be made to work well without having known in advance to expect it and reserve the headroom. And if the effect of the dynamic algorithm ends up being super-conservative, it might as well perhaps have just been a fixed tone curve and we could have saved some effort!


A naive implementation would switch curves frame-by-frame. So in the moment the movie jumps from 1000nits peak to 10000nits peak the curve would switch as well, which would make former 1000nits pixels suddenly go noticeably darker, which would be visible as pumping or even flickering. My first implementation did this, and it produced very annoying flickering.

One workaround (which I'm currently using) is to use a rolling average of frame measurements. This way the measurement doesn't directly jump from 1000nits to 10000nits, but it will gradually increase in smaller steps. Of course this means that the first few 10000nits frames will be clipped at slightly above 1000nits. The curve will only adjust to the new 10000nits peak gradually. So it's not a perfect solution, but it seems to work ok for now.

I don't want this thread to talk too much about my stuff, though, so I'll bow out here for now.



bobof said:


> Of course on a PC you might have some advantage; you could always choose to pre-process the content, and you could do snazzy things like working out good "cut points" to splice in your tone curve adjustments by looking for black frames or obvious scene transitions.


Pre-processing is hard, at least for the environment my implementation is running in. I could imagine remembering the measurements during playback, though, to optimize playback if the same movie is played a 2nd time. Searching for "cut points" is one of the things I'm planning to look into when I find some more time. That is something Lumagen could also do, I think.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I'm surprised so much TV is actually being made in DV, and wonder if this is the result of some sausage machine that is taking HDR in and outputting DV en-masse without user intervention.


Um, because DV is the ONLY solution that if all devices are DV compliant there is NO issue with HDR?? It is the only end to end solution right now that takes away all the guess work and issues that we talk about daily on these threads. The only issue I know of with DV, when fully implemented (whole chain supports), is the black bar issue on some flat panels. Now if you're using DV on an ATV4K with the Lumagen and a projector you are layering tone maps. If the content is DV, it is converted in the ATV4K to HDR10 (via Dolby's algorithm and tone mapping) and then sent to your Lumagen for further tone mapping. Also, depending on how you have the ATV setup, it can be converting EVERYTHING to DV. Apple did this to make the experience "seamless" to the end user (which is probably is for the general public) but I'm not a fan as it even converts SDR material to HDR artificially. They then gave us the option of automatically switching to the proper "dynamic range" on the fly in the A/V settings so that wouldn't happen.


----------



## Kris Deering

madshi said:


> A naive implementation would switch curves frame-by-frame. So in the moment the movie jumps from 1000nits peak to 10000nits peak the curve would switch as well, which would make former 1000nits pixels suddenly go noticeably darker, which would be visible as pumping or even flickering. My first implementation did this, and it produced very annoying flickering.
> 
> One workaround (which I'm currently using) is to use a rolling average of frame measurements. This way the measurement doesn't directly jump from 1000nits to 10000nits, but it will gradually increase in smaller steps. Of course this means that the first few 10000nits frames will be clipped at slightly above 1000nits. The curve will only adjust to the new 10000nits peak gradually. So it's not a perfect solution, but it seems to work ok for now.
> 
> I don't want this thread to talk too much about my stuff, though, so I'll bow out here for now.
> 
> 
> Pre-processing is hard, at least for the environment my implementation is running in. I could imagine remembering the measurements during playback, though, to optimize playback if the same movie is played a 2nd time. Searching for "cut points" is one of the things I'm planning to look into when I find some more time. That is something Lumagen could also do, I think.



Interesting points. It is almost too bad that the actual metadata included on discs is so poorly implemented. If it was actually reliable, it could be used for frame by frame analysis as a gating system since you would "know" that the content will not exceed certain barriers. You could technically do that now with the max display info (as long as you are okay with clipping at the same point the mastering was clipping at, for example 4000 nits with something like MM as opposed to the real values that are on the disc for some reason) but MaxCLL seems to be less reliable. I'm not sure how displays that do frame by frame (LG OLEDs, Sony Z9D) handle this but I've heard that despite the frame by frame on the LG it is still effected by the metadata. 


I have NO faith at all that HDR10+ is going to be better. They couldn't get a single set of numbers right for metadata and now I'm supposed to think they'll get EVERY frame right? The CE industry has always failed MISERABLY with metadata. THX tried to do it, HDMI tried to do it, and we see already how bad they're doing with HDR.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Um, because DV is the ONLY solution that if all devices are DV compliant there is NO issue with HDR?? It is the only end to end solution right now that takes away all the guess work and issues that we talk about daily on these threads. The only issue I know of with DV, when fully implemented (whole chain supports), is the black bar issue on some flat panels. Now if you're using DV on an ATV4K with the Lumagen and a projector you are layering tone maps. If the content is DV, it is converted in the ATV4K to HDR10 (via Dolby's algorithm and tone mapping) and then sent to your Lumagen for further tone mapping. Also, depending on how you have the ATV setup, it can be converting EVERYTHING to DV. Apple did this to make the experience "seamless" to the end user (which is probably is for the general public) but I'm not a fan as it even converts SDR material to HDR artificially. They then gave us the option of automatically switching to the proper "dynamic range" on the fly in the A/V settings so that wouldn't happen.


You might want to get your computer checked out. It appears your shift key has a defect which makes it look like you are sporadically shouting into your laptop screen... 

As far as your point on DV being end-to-end; well, it might be if you want to watch on a piffling small screen with your speakers under it, but I prefer a more cinematic presentation... As yet Dolby show no interest in the projection market (and why would they? - it is going to be hard to charge a license that makes sense in such a small market). Maybe you know it is just round the corner, but I'd be surprised. Dolby's attitude towards Lumagen and Accupel further cements my own thoughts that if DV were to crash and burn (not exactly a ton of discs coming out) and HDR10+ succeed the world would probably be a better place.

On the subject of the ATV4K, I have the ATV set to auto dynamic range and framerate, so it should only output HDR with HDR stuff.

I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that DV content on ATV4k Netflix (like on disc) wouldn't be tone-mapped by the ATV to HDR10 from the DV stream using the metadata, but would instead revert to an HDR10 base layer / alternate stream. However this doesn't still explain the issue seen where the ATV is outputting something which should be HDR10 but has what appears to be sporadically changing MaxCLL data. Iron Fist was the title I noticed this on. 

If that is the case then I'd be better off watching the content using a non-DV streaming device with Netflix HDR support, like my Sony UHD player. That particular problematic content plays fine via that, in HDR10, so there obviously are plain HDR10 streams available of this DV content...


----------



## Kris Deering

No, the caps are for emphasis, not yelling. And I'm not disputing your issues with no support for projection (I feel the same way when it comes to watching content). 


HDR10+ succeeding would not be a better situation, as we've already seen how good HDR10 has been implemented. HDR10+ is a half baked solution that is designed to improve the performance of edge lit displays more than anything else. But maybe I'll be surprised (if it ever happens, which so far is a complete no show). 


Every time I've talked to Dolby about projector support they've said that market is not on their radar as they are trying to get things rolling the way it should with the flat panel market, which makes the projection market look like a piece of dust on the floor in comparison. It's frustrating, but I understand from a business standpoint. 


I don't remember all the setup options in the ATV but I know there is way of basically saying your display supports HDR but that it DOES NOT support DV. But there is no such thing as a base layer on the ATV side, it is in fact changing one format to another based on all the information I've been told. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding based on the information I've been given. 


Is Iron Fist listed as a DV title? If not, I would again make sure that your ATV thinks that your display does not do DV but does do HDR10. It may change your results. Also, make sure that no pop up menus or anything of that nature is coming up during the movie, that may change the metadata values simply because that is generated on the fly and may be different values than the content.


----------



## bobof

madshi said:


> A naive implementation would switch curves frame-by-frame. So in the moment the movie jumps from 1000nits peak to 10000nits peak the curve would switch as well, which would make former 1000nits pixels suddenly go noticeably darker, which would be visible as pumping or even flickering. My first implementation did this, and it produced very annoying flickering.
> 
> One workaround (which I'm currently using) is to use a rolling average of frame measurements. This way the measurement doesn't directly jump from 1000nits to 10000nits, but it will gradually increase in smaller steps. Of course this means that the first few 10000nits frames will be clipped at slightly above 1000nits. The curve will only adjust to the new 10000nits peak gradually. So it's not a perfect solution, but it seems to work ok for now.
> 
> I don't want this thread to talk too much about my stuff, though, so I'll bow out here for now.
> 
> Pre-processing is hard, at least for the environment my implementation is running in. I could imagine remembering the measurements during playback, though, to optimize playback if the same movie is played a 2nd time. Searching for "cut points" is one of the things I'm planning to look into when I find some more time. That is something Lumagen could also do, I think.


I'm sure it is all good and Jim et al will probably be quite interested in stuff you did and didn't work. 
All the rolling averages etc I guess will for some definition "work" but effectively end up (like anything like this) getting you further away from that fast and snappy response which was the ultimate aim. Maybe it works well enough but that muted transitioning is what I usually dislike about dynamic contrast. 

At least as a renderer running on the same machine as the playback you could come up with some way of communicating the pre-process information, it is really, really hard for a standalone device. 

Cut points could be really interesting for either implementation. If you know that the current frame looks like it is a completely different camera angle (the content is wildly different between frames) then you could make bolder assumptions about how likely it is that you can use a quite different tone curve based on the new frame's pixel data with less chance of getting wrong-footed.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> No, the caps are for emphasis, not yelling. And I'm not disputing your issues with no support for projection (I feel the same way when it comes to watching content).
> 
> 
> HDR10+ succeeding would not be a better situation, as we've already seen how good HDR10 has been implemented. HDR10+ is a half baked solution that is designed to improve the performance of edge lit displays more than anything else. But maybe I'll be surprised (if it ever happens, which so far is a complete no show).
> 
> 
> Every time I've talked to Dolby about projector support they've said that market is not on their radar as they are trying to get things rolling the way it should with the flat panel market, which makes the projection market look like a piece of dust on the floor in comparison. It's frustrating, but I understand from a business standpoint.
> 
> 
> I don't remember all the setup options in the ATV but I know there is way of basically saying your display supports HDR but that it DOES NOT support DV. But there is no such thing as a base layer on the ATV side, it is in fact changing one format to another based on all the information I've been told. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding based on the information I've been given.
> 
> 
> Is Iron Fist listed as a DV title? If not, I would again make sure that your ATV thinks that your display does not do DV but does do HDR10. It may change your results. Also, make sure that no pop up menus or anything of that nature is coming up during the movie, that may change the metadata values simply because that is generated on the fly and may be different values than the content.


Apologies, I was feeling a bit sore from picking up an infraction for daring to talk about trying to figure out how to get a 3DLUT into an LG set without using CM. Best not dwell on it lest I get it with both barrels...

On the ATV Iron Fist shows as DV when connected to my Lumagen Pro, even though Lumagen Pro can't do DV. (apparently this is par for the course). On the Sony player it shows as HDR. The metadata changing constantly is a real thing - it does it repeatedly in the same places, and depending on the values you'll see the Lumagen switch between the two HDR ranges which is really annoying. It is a pain. 

No-where in the Apple setup menus with the Pro connected does it say DV - it just says HDR with the option to switch to SDR - so I assume the ATV is just detecting an HDR10 capable device. I don't know what it shows if a DV device is connected though - whether it states DV or just HDR still.

I haven't checked the above in the last few weeks as the Pro is in it's box at the mo waiting for my room to be finished, but when I get it out again I'll have another look.


----------



## Kris Deering

No worries. I will try and remember to look on my ATV tonight and see what I did to ensure DV was turned off. I will then try some DV titles fed into my Lumagen and see if I get changes in metadata.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> No worries. I will try and remember to look on my ATV tonight and see what I did to ensure DV was turned off. I will then try some DV titles fed into my Lumagen and see if I get changes in metadata.


I think the Marvel content were prime offenders. Iron fist definitely did it. Check the MaxCLL ocassionally and you'll see. You'll also quite often notice the shifting tone map as it crosses the threshold (the MaxCLL varied wildly). I think I posted a timestamp up the thread somewhere where it was really obvious.
[email protected] Convergent confirmed it was happening. There was another little bonus last time I checked - you might hear an audio glitch at the point in time that the tone curve switch happens; Lumagen didn't (at the time, going back a month) behave completely cleanly when receiving the unexpected (illegal for HDR10?) MaxCLL update.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> What are your settings for IM >2500 and


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I think the Marvel content were prime offenders. Iron fist definitely did it. Check the MaxCLL ocassionally and you'll see. You'll also quite often notice the shifting tone map as it crosses the threshold (the MaxCLL varied wildly). I think I posted a timestamp up the thread somewhere where it was really obvious.
> [email protected] Convergent confirmed it was happening. There was another little bonus last time I checked - you might hear an audio glitch at the point in time that the tone curve switch happens; Lumagen didn't (at the time, going back a month) behave completely cleanly when receiving the unexpected (illegal for HDR10?) MaxCLL update.


I did some testing on this and confirm I see the same thing, BUT, I don't think it is an ATV4K problem, I think it is a NETFLIX app problem. I played the first episode of Iron Fist and immediately had changing HDR metadata and audio drops. But, if I play a Dolby Vision 4K movie from my iTunes library (I used 3 different ones from various studios) I don't get any of the same issues. One of the titles I tried was Blade Runner 2049 and it did have a problem, the metadata gave it a MaxCLL of 3999, which is WAY too high for this film as we already know. So that's an issue, but I think that is part of the conversion from Dolby to HDR10. But it stayed the same for as long as I played the movie or even did chapter skips.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I did some testing on this and confirm I see the same thing, BUT, I don't think it is an ATV4K problem, I think it is a NETFLIX app problem. I played the first episode of Iron Fist and immediately had changing HDR metadata and audio drops. But, if I play a Dolby Vision 4K movie from my iTunes library (I used 3 different ones from various studios) I don't get any of the same issues. One of the titles I tried was Blade Runner 2049 and it did have a problem, the metadata gave it a MaxCLL of 3999, which is WAY too high for this film as we already know. So that's an issue, but I think that is part of the conversion from Dolby to HDR10. But it stayed the same for as long as I played the movie or even did chapter skips.


If I recall correct it seems a problem of certain content in the Netflix app - I'm sure some of the HDR content doesn't have the problem.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> If I recall correct it seems a problem of certain content in the Netflix app - I'm sure some of the HDR content doesn't have the problem.


I didn't test other HDR content in the Netflix app, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was only the Dolby Vision content within the app and not an issue with the standard HDR10 content. But definitely only happening with content in the NETFLIX app specifically, which is why I don't think it is a problem with the ATV4K per se, but the app itself.


----------



## baseball0618

thrang said:


> I don’t see it Kris... content is too variable. I mean, yes, you can find compromised settings and leave it, but not optimized...
> 
> I think you need frame-based analysis to make this truly the transformative (if this is possible; I’m no programmer)


I agree 100% and it's why I am staying on the sidelines for now. For the majority of owners there are way too many variables to keep on top of that require, for most, way too much time, effort and inherent knowledge. I applaud Lumagen for the technology they have and the work they are doing. I hope that in a year or two that many of the variables that are present, mostly due to how titles are mastered it seems, can be ironed out more efficiently so that this type of processor can be more "plug and play" and useful to those whom don't have the time to invest in maximizing this piece of kit.


----------



## thrang

Looks like 050618 was released to fix the HDR out desaturation not working in 0505...


----------



## Mike_WI

baseball0618 said:


> I agree 100% and it's why I am staying on the sidelines for now. For the majority of owners there are way too many variables to keep on top of that require, for most, way too much time, effort and inherent knowledge. I applaud Lumagen for the technology they have and the work they are doing. I hope that in a year or two that many of the variables that are present, mostly due to how titles are mastered it seems, can be ironed out more efficiently so that this type of processor can be more "plug and play" and useful to those whom don't have the time to invest in maximizing this piece of kit.


I have been delaying a calibration (besides coordinating schedules) in part to wait for more stability in how to calibrate HDRs with projectors.
Looks great even without it and going through Lumagen.


----------



## baseball0618

Mike_WI said:


> I have been delaying a calibration (besides coordinating schedules) in part to wait for more stability in how to calibrate HDRs with projectors.
> Looks great even without it and going through Lumagen.



yes this was one of my fears b/c I don't want to pay for a professional calibration only to have the calibration become "outdated" a month later and then have to rely on my limited knowledge to make adjustments. It just screams of a situation where I end up pulling my hair out, breaking my equipoment and my wife filing for divorce!


----------



## Mike_WI

baseball0618 said:


> yes this was one of my fears b/c I don't want to pay for a professional calibration only to have the calibration become "outdated" a month later and then have to rely on my limited knowledge to make adjustments. It just screams of a situation where I end up pulling my hair out, breaking my equipoment and my wife filing for divorce!


I hear you. Good news is that Lumagen is always improving. Bad news is Lumagen is always improving.
At some point you just need to jump in.
Likely later this summer for me -- just based on scheduling.

Mike


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> I hear you. Good news is that Lumagen is always improving. Bad news is Lumagen is always improving.
> At some point you just need to jump in.
> Likely later this summer for me -- just based on scheduling.
> 
> Mike


Yes, The Radiance certainly offers many solid benefits - no question... it's worth it.

I just think at times they need to look at technology implementation from a user perspective, not only calibrator-centric. Something like cleaning up tone mapping, if possible - improving/simplifying/automating better would be a significant improvement (I refer to the frame-based analysis, chiefly, under the presumption that would contribute greatly in this regard). They are a small company and are very tech-focused in their resources it seems (which is largely an excellent thing) but even a bit more attention to GUI organization and quality wouldn't be a bad thing...ethernet with web/IP control might also make sense at one point.

Separately, I am discussing with Sony the concept of adding a HDR via SDR mode to the 5000 (no tone mapping and HDR luminance passed under an SDR flag). Maybe something like:










I think it would help for anyone one else here (dealers/calibrators) that have good contacts within Sony to also make this case. I don't know if there are technical limitations to this, but it can't hurt for multiple people to raise the possibility.


----------



## Mike_WI

^^^
I think an improved UI/UX would result in increased sales for Lumagen and greater uptake by calibrators.
Currently it is difficult finding Lumagen savvy calibrators.

I am plenty smart (by a variety of externally validated sources), but don't have the time/energy to dive into calibration fully buy the necessary high end gear.
Even if there was a UI/UX "shell" it would help and "pros" used to the old version could bypass to the old version.
I suspect it wouldn't cost much to code that.

Mike


----------



## SJHT

What’s so great about the Lumagen is that you can try things out. I have Ken Whitcomb’s Memory A and B and three CMSs that he set up as well as one setting (Reference) on my Sony 885. That leaves me all the rest to play around with, but frankly go back to what Ken setup at this point. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike_WI said:


> I have been delaying a calibration (besides coordinating schedules) in part to wait for more stability in how to calibrate HDRs with projectors.
> Looks great even without it and going through Lumagen.


Calibrating your projector for HDR with the Lumagen is a pretty easy process overall. Shouldn't be an issue at all for someone that is familiar with the Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Yes, The Radiance certainly offers many solid benefits - no question... it's worth it.
> 
> I just think at times they need to look at technology implementation from a user perspective, not only calibrator-centric. Something like cleaning up tone mapping, if possible - improving/simplifying/automating better would be a significant improvement (I refer to the frame-based analysis, chiefly, under the presumption that would contribute greatly in this regard). They are a small company and are very tech-focused in their resources it seems (which is largely an excellent thing) but even a bit more attention to GUI organization and quality wouldn't be a bad thing...ethernet with web/IP control might also make sense at one point.
> 
> Separately, I am discussing with Sony the concept of adding a HDR via SDR mode to the 5000 (no tone mapping and HDR luminance passed under an SDR flag). Maybe something like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would help for anyone one else here (dealers/calibrators) that have good contacts within Sony to also make this case. I don't know if there are technical limitations to this, but it can't hurt for multiple people to raise the possibility.


The only thing it sounds like Sony needs to offer is support for WCG without an HDR input signal. If you had that (which every other brand of projector seems to offer), you wouldn't have any issues. I don't understand how that can be much of an issue to implement with firmware.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> The only thing it sounds like Sony needs to offer is support for WCG without an HDR input signal. If you had that (which every other brand of projector seems to offer), you wouldn't have any issues. I don't understand how that can be much of an issue to implement with firmware.


My understanding, (which is subject to thrashing and mashing), is that is displays 2020 (nee P3), but "excludes" the higher HDR luminance levels...I presume "excludes" means remaps to SDR levels.

So the larger footprint but a short leg...


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> My understanding, (which is subject to thrashing and mashing), is that is displays 2020 (nee P3), but "excludes" the higher HDR luminance levels...I presume "excludes" means remaps to SDR levels.
> 
> So the larger footprint but a short leg...


Gregg:

Are you saying perhaps that when the Sony enters HDR they increase the gains of the RGB? This was an early manual workaround pre- Sony HDR tone mapping.


----------



## thrang

LJG said:


> Gregg:
> 
> Are you saying perhaps that when the Sony enters HDR they increase the gains of the RGB? This was an early manual workaround pre- Sony HDR tone mapping.


I think it has more to do with not displaying higher-than-SDR luminance (which is contained in the SDR signal from an IM-SDR signal from the Radiance). Whether this is gain-related is unclear to me...I suppose we can check the service menu gain values to see if they change with an HDR flag, but I suspect not.

EDIT: I checked the service menu, gains do not seemed changed there...


----------



## thrang

In general, should a higher HDSat level reveal more detail than a lower number for the brightest pixels in greater-than 1000 nit titles? Maybe I'm not understanding the feature completely...


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> In general, should a higher HDSat level reveal more detail than a lower number for the brightest pixels in greater-than 1000 nit titles? Maybe I'm not understanding the feature completely...


It isn't detail that HDSat is working with, detail shouldn't change at all. It has to do with the saturation of the pixels. So think of it almost like a change in color. If you turn the number up you'll see REALLY saturated colors start to desaturate (if they were already outside spec). It doesn't change the detail of the image at all, just how extreme the colors are (it eliminates what looks like clipping in the Mad Max clips that are always used for comparisons).


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> It isn't detail that HDSat is working with, detail shouldn't change at all. It has to do with the saturation of the pixels. So think of it almost like a change in color. If you turn the number up you'll see REALLY saturated colors start to desaturate (if they were already outside spec). It doesn't change the detail of the image at all, just how extreme the colors are (it eliminates what looks like clipping in the Mad Max clips that are always used for comparisons).


I originally thought the same - I asked because I am seeing this:




















(In fact there; s a lot more more detail and color information in the flame highlights in the lower image, but its blowing out as I capture it...)

On one hand, one might say this is an artifact of the hybrid HDR approach - however, since Lumagen is supporting HDSat via HDR, I'm also suspecting something may not be working correctly?


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> I originally thought the same - I asked because I am seeing this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (In fact there; s a lot more more detail and color information in the flame highlights in the lower image, but its blowing out as I capture it...)
> 
> On one hand, one might say this is an artifact of the hybrid HDR approach - however, since Lumagen is supporting HDSat via HDR, I'm also suspecting something may not be working correctly?


Interesting. It almost looks like it is doing the opposite of what it should in this case, but I've never used it with HDR out, only SDR. Jim may have to chime in on this one.


----------



## madshi

Kris Deering said:


> It has to do with the saturation of the pixels. So think of it almost like a change in color. If you turn the number up you'll see REALLY saturated colors start to desaturate (if they were already outside spec). It doesn't change the detail of the image at all, just how extreme the colors are (it eliminates what looks like clipping in the Mad Max clips that are always used for comparisons).


HDSat does not necessarily desaturate really saturated colors at all, even at max setting it doesn't. HDSat only desaturates if a pixel is both too bright *and* too saturated at the same time. In that situation a setting of HDSat=0 results in brightness being clipped and saturation being maintained, while a setting of HDSet=15 results in saturation being clipped and brightness being maintained. Any setting between 0 and 15 is a compromise between sacrificing some saturation and some brightness. It's a "pick your poison" type of situation. Obviously reducing either brightness or saturation is not something we would ideally like to do. But in this situation we have to lose something, because the display simply can't handle the situation properly.

Explosions are usually extremely bright and deeply saturated. So it's a typical situation where HDSat comes into play. I would not recommend to use the highest possible HDSat setting, though. Some compromise between losing some saturation and some brightness is probably a better choice. I'd suggest maybe a setting of 8-10 as a decent starting point for tests.


----------



## Eventidal

I cannot see any desaturation on my 885ES with HDR2020 as well. Maybe my projector is not bright enough or they need to increase the range.

Edit: I can see a change in the highlights thanks to Thrangs pictures!


----------



## desertdome

thrang said:


> Yes, The Radiance certainly offers many solid benefits - no question... it's worth it.
> 
> I just think at times they need to look at technology implementation from a user perspective, not only calibrator-centric. Something like cleaning up tone mapping, if possible - improving/simplifying/automating better would be a significant improvement (I refer to the frame-based analysis, chiefly, under the presumption that would contribute greatly in this regard). They are a small company and are very tech-focused in their resources it seems (which is largely an excellent thing) but even a bit more attention to GUI organization and quality wouldn't be a bad thing...ethernet with web/IP control might also make sense at one point.
> 
> Separately, I am discussing with Sony the concept of adding a HDR via SDR mode to the 5000 (no tone mapping and HDR luminance passed under an SDR flag). Maybe something like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would help for anyone one else here (dealers/calibrators) that have good contacts within Sony to also make this case. I don't know if there are technical limitations to this, but it can't hurt for multiple people to raise the possibility.


I haven't read all of your post so you may have already explained it. Why aren't you just using Intensity Mapping in the Lumagen? In my opinion, you get the most "correct" image quality with HDR off on the Sony and letting the Lumagen do all the processing.

I used a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 at AXPONA 2018 with a Sony 5000ES and Panamorph Paladin DCR. The 5000ES manual says on page 22, "All of the modes of “Color Space” are selectable when “HDR10,” “HLG,” or “Off” is selected." I turned HDR off and set the color space to BT.2020. Then I profiled the 5000ES with LightSpace Pro and created two LUT's using LightSpace's Map Space Algorithm.

From Light Illusion:
_Map Space is far more advanced than any of the other options, and uses a complex set of Colour Engine algorithms in generating the final LUT that are applied in a totally unique multi-step approach to LUT generation and calibration. This process will more often or not produce a 'cleaner' picture quality on any display, with a high level of calibration accuracy, even on displays with poor RGB channel separation (bad cross-coupling), but especially on displays with a smaller gamut than the target colour space.

The approach taken with Map Space is to assess the raw underlying capabilities of the display, without any reference to the target colour space, to see what the display is natively capable of, and then 'map' those capabilities into the target colour space, using a multi-step mathematical process. This mapping process will work on any display, with any underlying 'issues' that may cause calibration artefacts/problems with the other LUT generation options._

The first LUT I created mapped to the maximum native color space of the 5000ES. This was loaded into CMS2 on the Lumagen. The second LUT I created mapped to BT.709 and was loaded into CMS1. I could have lowered the brightness of the BT.709 LUT to set the white level at 14fL, but due to show conditions I kept it a little brighter. I then left the 5000ES in the same mode all the time and UHD Blu-rays and standard Blu-ray content all played correctly since the Lumagen automatically switched LUTs. 

I still have the Sony 5000ES and Panamorph Paladin DCR. I've been using my 50' Long Haul Fiber Optic HDMI cable from AVProConnect with no issues on the Sony. I recently delivered the Lumagen to a customer so I no longer have it. A quick note on the Panamorph lens is that it increases brightness by 18%. I did some measurements with Chris Seymour/Seymour-Screen Excellence and performed some more measurements at home. You do get a 32% increase in brightness going from 3820x2160 to 4096x2160 with vertical stretch. However, you can go to 4096x2160 with the Lumagen or madVR without vertical stretch and get a nice boost in brightness. Adding the Panamorph then adds another 18% increase.

During a calibration, one of the first things I do is set optical black to its darkest level and then calibrate digital black. Lumagen recommends the same practice. This is a very important part of the Lumagen calibration and must be understood in order to get maximum contrast ratio. I use my meter to set optical black. The Lumagen (and madVR) make it easy to set digital black for a calibration. For other calibrations I typically have to use a custom gamma curve. With the Sony 5000ES, optical black was set with the brightness control set to -2 or -3. I can't remember exactly. 

I will confess to a mistake. At AXPONA I have to setup a theater, calibrate the audio, and calibrate the video all in one day so time is of the essence. I was using an HTPC as my source with madVR so I could have a nice playlist of virtual clips of UHD Blu-rays. When doing the display profiling, I normally use madVR to generate the patterns if using an HTPC so the complete signal chain is taken into account. I felt that the Lumagen patterns switched a little faster with LightSpace so I used the Lumagen to generate the patterns. I could have also used my Murideo SIX-G. I set madVR so the setting "this display is already calibrated" and that it was calibrated to BT.2020. However, I forgot to switch the default 2.2 gamma to 2.4 in madVR. I had created the LUTs for a 2.4 gamma so the black levels were slightly elevated. I didn't realize until I got home and was playing content in my own environment that I realized something was a little off.

If anyone does have a calibration done for a Lumagen, I recommend that LightSpace is used instead of CalMan (I also have Calman Professional). Jim will concur that LightSpace allows for a superior 3D LUT and he was very instrumental in my decision to switch to LightSpace.


----------



## thrang

The 5000 won’t display HDR luminance values inside a signal flagged as SDR - that’s the issue.


----------



## bobof

desertdome said:


> During a calibration, one of the first things I do is set optical black to its darkest level and then calibrate digital black. Lumagen recommends the same practice. This is a very important part of the Lumagen calibration and must be understood in order to get maximum contrast ratio. I use my meter to set optical black. The Lumagen (and madVR) make it easy to set digital black for a calibration. For other calibrations I typically have to use a custom gamma curve. With the Sony 5000ES, optical black was set with the brightness control set to -2 or -3. I can't remember exactly.


I don't fully understand this process, but maybe that is because of the PJ I have. I have an old JVC X30. If I use a test disc to set optical black (the point at which the brightness control causes no raising of level 16 background) I always find that 17 is (only just) visible. In this scenario, isn't digital black set correct? If not, can someone please explain a bit more about how the two interact. I'm pretty sure I get the optical, but the digital is confusing me (though maybe it is just because my PJ has a well-mannered brightness control).



thrang said:


> The 5000 won’t pass HDR luminance values inside a signal flagged as SDR - that’s the issue.


This confuses me also as the terminology doesn't make sense. When you say "won't pass HDR luminance values" - obviously the projector can't meet HDR luminance values for any of the standards anyway, and it isn't "passing" values through to some other HDMI device. Do you just mean that the peak white when in SDR-in mode is darker than in HDR-in mode, so you just end up using HDR mode because you want the extra brightness? If this is the case, how much difference is there?


----------



## thrang

bobof said:


> I don't fully understand this process, but maybe that is because of the PJ I have. I have an old JVC X30. If I use a test disc to set optical black (the point at which the brightness control causes no raising of level 16 background) I always find that 17 is (only just) visible. In this scenario, isn't digital black set correct? If not, can someone please explain a bit more about how the two interact. I'm pretty sure I get the optical, but the digital is confusing me (though maybe it is just because my PJ has a well-mannered brightness control).
> 
> 
> 
> This confuses me also as the terminology doesn't make sense. When you say "won't pass HDR luminance values" - obviously the projector can't meet HDR luminance values for any of the standards anyway, and it isn't "passing" values through to some other HDMI device. Do you just mean that the peak white when in SDR-in mode is darker than in HDR-in mode, so you just end up using HDR mode because you want the extra brightness? If this is the case, how much difference is there?


Poor use of words...won’t “display”... changed my post.

Yes it’s darker and less color accurate with HDR as SDR in..the difference is quite obvious...


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> Poor use of words...won’t “display”... changed my post.
> 
> Yes it’s darker and less color accurate with HDR as SDR in..the difference is quite obvious...


Interesting. So do the colours measure less accurately before the LUT is enabled for SDR2020 vs HDR2020, or is this a subjective looks less accurate?


----------



## thrang

bobof said:


> Interesting. So do the colours measure less accurately before the LUT is enabled for SDR2020 vs HDR2020, or is this a subjective looks less accurate?


Subjectively darker and reduced color with SDR in IM (subjectively as I don't have the tools to measure, but fairly self evident). But also observed by others here and Sony as to the behavior... and benefit...

Besides the more muted image with SDR in, another thing I was fighting for a while was banding in gradient areas (think the light glow in K's apartment in Blade Runner 2049, spilling onto the gray wall...). When I switched to HDR in, the banding was essentially gone. I can only surmise this was caused by the 5000 mapping higher luminance values down to a strict SDR space, and inevitably, this introduced banding ....


----------



## TomHuffman

tibia said:


> Auto-Calibration will try to calibrate to Chromapure HDR10 or HDR10-Projector gamma. It will be successful up to signal intensities up to about 50%. Above that everything is white clipped and the results are terrible because the projector had already reached its maximum light output. With a fresh lamp or laser light source projector the white clip point could be higher. Furthermore, once the projector has reached maximum light output there is nothing left for the Pro's Intensity Mapping algorithm to work with. Turning it on makes the resulting image completely unwatchable.
> 
> On the other hand, if you setup both Chromapure and the Pro to do SDR2020 calibration but using a Rec 709 source and 2.4 power law gamma Auto-Calibration works fantastically well. After running Auto-Cal turn on Pro's Intensity Mapping to put the sparkle back in the image. You really need to be comfortable navigating the Pro's menu to get the setup correct because it is somewhat detailed.


You can control the intensity target that auto-cal aims for via the Intensity filter. It is not hard-coded at 50%. In any case, at the 50% point using HDR - Projector gamma the target output is only 27.7 nits, which would certainly not max out the projector's light output. Even 60% should be fine, as it is only 73.2 nits. If you are getting "terrible" results with HDR2020 it is for some other reason. If you have a 2017 or earlier JVC projector the reason may be that the projector's gamma mode D and Color settings are not optimized for HDR. Once you make manual adjustments to them, HDR2020 calibration results look really good. I posted the settings in the ChromaPure thread and I'll copy them here. 

BTW the concern you voice is a real one. CP is designed to follow the PQ curve as close as possible (HDR10 - Projector does so at a lower amplitude) up to a certain point when the display's tone mapping is supposed to take over. Somewhere between 60%-70% seems a good cut-off point for the Intensity filter. 



**********************



*Important: JVC Projector settings for HDR Calibration* 
By default, pre-2018 JVC projectors are not optimally configured for HDR. To get a good HDR calibration (manual or auto-cal) you need to manually input the following settings BEFORE starting the the calibration.

*ChromaPure Settings*
Gamma: HDR10 - Projector
Gamut: Rec. 2020

Models DLA-X950R, X750R, X550R, X9000, X7000, X5000, XC7890R, XC6890R, XC5890R, RS600, RS500, RS400

*General*

Iris: Manual, Fully open
Picture Mode: Reference
Lamp Power: High

*Gamma*

Gamma setting: D
Picture Tone: +12
Dark Level: +5
Bright Level: +4

*Color*

Models DLA-X950R,X750R,X9000,X7000,XC7890R,RS600,RS500

Picture Mode: Reference
Color: +20
Tint: -5
Color Management: On
Color Selection: Blue, Hue： -15
Color Selection: Yellow, Hue： -3

Models DLA-X550R,X5000,XC6890R,XC5890R,RS400

Color Profile: Cinema
Color: +30
Color Management: On
Color Selection: Blue, Hue： -15

I completed both a manual and HDR/2020 calibration using these settings and got excellent results. Without the adjustments Gamma D is nearly unusable and achieving good color is very difficult.


----------



## Roland Janus

TomHuffman said:


> You can control the intensity target that auto-cal aims for via the Intensity filter. It is not hard-coded at 50%. In any case, at the 50% point using HDR - Projector gamma the target output is only 27.7 nits, which would certainly not max out the projector's light output. Even 60% should be fine, as it is only 73.2 nits. If you are getting "terrible" results with HDR2020 it is for some other reason. If you have a 2017 or earlier JVC projector the reason may be that the projector's gamma mode D and Color settings are not optimized for HDR. Once you make manual adjustments to them, HDR2020 calibration results look really good. I posted the settings in the ChromaPure thread and I'll copy them here.
> 
> BTW the concern you voice is a real one. CP is designed to follow the PQ curve as close as possible (HDR10 - Projector does so at a lower amplitude) up to a certain point when the display's tone mapping is supposed to take over. Somewhere between 60%-70% seems a good cut-off point for the Intensity filter.
> 
> 
> 
> **********************
> 
> 
> 
> *Important: JVC Projector settings for HDR Calibration*
> By default, pre-2018 JVC projectors are not optimally configured for HDR. To get a good HDR calibration (manual or auto-cal) you need to manually input the following settings BEFORE starting the the calibration.
> 
> *ChromaPure Settings*
> Gamma: HDR10 - Projector
> Gamut: Rec. 2020
> 
> Models DLA-X950R, X750R, X550R, X9000, X7000, X5000, XC7890R, XC6890R, XC5890R, RS600, RS500, RS400
> 
> *General*
> 
> Iris: Manual, Fully open
> Picture Mode: Reference
> Lamp Power: High
> 
> *Gamma*
> 
> Gamma setting: D
> Picture Tone: +12
> Dark Level: +5
> Bright Level: +4
> 
> *Color*
> 
> Models DLA-X950R,X750R,X9000,X7000,XC7890R,RS600,RS500
> 
> Picture Mode: Reference
> Color: +20
> Tint: -5
> Color Management: On
> Color Selection: Blue, Hue： -15
> Color Selection: Yellow, Hue： -3
> 
> Models DLA-X550R,X5000,XC6890R,XC5890R,RS400
> 
> Color Profile: Cinema
> Color: +30
> Color Management: On
> Color Selection: Blue, Hue： -15
> 
> I completed both a manual and HDR/2020 calibration using these settings and got excellent results. Without the adjustments Gamma D is nearly unusable and achieving good color is very difficult.


You have something like that for the Sony 5000?


----------



## TomHuffman

Roland Janus said:


> You have something like that for the Sony 5000?


I am unaware of anything like this for the Sony. Does it need more than the normal adjustments?


----------



## Roland Janus

TomHuffman said:


> I am unaware of anything like this for the Sony. Does it need more than the normal adjustments?


I guess not, but was wondering if you had something from your experience with it.
Hm, have you actually done tests wit it, in particular the HDR/SDR topic?

-roland


----------



## cappy1

*Oppo 203 Tone Mapping Settings*

As a newbie to this forum and to tone mapping I need a little help with the correct Oppo 203 settings. I want to insure the Radiance Pro handles all tone mapping without potential conflicts. My projector is a Sony VW885ES.


----------



## TomHuffman

Roland Janus said:


> I guess not, but was wondering if you had something from your experience with it.
> Hm, have you actually done tests wit it, in particular the HDR/SDR topic?


No, sorry. The only HDR projector I have worked with is a JVC.


----------



## Mike_WI

cappy1 said:


> As a newbie to this forum and to tone mapping I need a little help with the correct Oppo 203 settings. I want to insure the Radiance Pro handles all tone mapping without potential conflicts. My projector is a Sony VW885ES.


Just use Oppo "Source Direct" setting and then Lumagen will do all processing.

Mike


----------



## cappy1

Mike_WI said:


> Just use Oppo "Source Direct" setting and then Lumagen will do all processing.
> 
> Mike


Thanks Mike. I had been using "Source Direct", but had no idea it would override tone mapping. Duh!


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Subjectively darker and reduced color with SDR in IM (subjectively as I don't have the tools to measure, but fairly self evident). But also observed by others here and Sony as to the behavior... and benefit...
> 
> Besides the more muted image with SDR in, another thing I was fighting for a while was banding in gradient areas (think the light glow in K's apartment in Blade Runner 2049, spilling onto the gray wall...). When I switched to HDR in, the banding was essentially gone. I can only surmise this was caused by the 5000 mapping higher luminance values down to a strict SDR space, and inevitably, this introduced banding ....


Just a quick thought Greg. I know some guys have used the Arve tool to import custom HDR gamma curves into Sony projectors using the Sony Image Director software.

Could you not use that to import a standard 2.4 power gamma for the HDR mode. If it works, that might allow you to get more benefit out of the Lumagen IM controls, as the two tone mapping system won't be fighting one another. Jim may then be able to give you an option to include a forced HDR flag on the outgoing SDR2020 2.4 gamma output to engage the Sony HDR mode.


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Just a quick thought Greg. I know some guys have used the Arve tool to import custom HDR gamma curves into Sony projectors using the Sony Image Director software.
> 
> Could you not use that to import a standard 2.4 power gamma for the HDR mode. If it works, that might allow you to get more benefit out of the Lumagen IM controls, as the two tone mapping system won't be fighting one another. Jim may then be able to give you an option to include a forced HDR flag on the outgoing SDR2020 2.4 gamma output to engage the Sony HDR mode.



Hi Wookie

Not following here... if the Sony kicks to HDR mode, there is no need to use an external tool for a custom gamma - it looks great in the hybrid approach. The Sony HDR mode does not have the issues the JVC has with its HDR Gamma mode being way off...

The issue is to see if the Sony can process a SDR2020 signal without remapping the embedded HDR luminance levels to SDR limits.

So perhaps I'm missing your point here...

Thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Hi Wookie
> 
> 
> 
> Not following here... if the Sony kicks to HDR mode, there is no need to use an external tool for a custom gamma - it looks great in the hybrid approach. The Sony HDR mode does not have the issues the JVC has with its HDR Gamma mode being way off...
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is to see if the Sony can process a SDR2020 signal without remapping the embedded HDR luminance levels to SDR limits.
> 
> 
> 
> So perhaps I'm missing your point here...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks




The problem here is there are no “SDR limits” when it comes to luminance. This is why I’m confused about why the Sony is having this issue. I could understand it not supporting 2020 with a SDR signal, we’ve seen that with other displays, but limiting luminance doesn’t make any sense at all. Which makes me question it as a setup issue. But without having access to one I can’t say for sure. I wish there was someone local with that combo that I could test out. Then I could provide feedback for you or other members with this setup. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> The problem here is there are no “SDR limits” when it comes to luminance. This is why I’m confused about why the Sony is having this issue. I could understand it not supporting 2020 with a SDR signal, we’ve seen that with other displays, but limiting luminance doesn’t make any sense at all.


Same here, seems positively nuts, since you're effectively crippling the maximum screen size for no obvious reason.
Unless the laser can't run that hot for long or some other weirdness.


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Hi Wookie
> 
> Not following here... if the Sony kicks to HDR mode, there is no need to use an external tool for a custom gamma - it looks great in the hybrid approach. The Sony HDR mode does not have the issues the JVC has with its HDR Gamma mode being way off...
> 
> The issue is to see if the Sony can process a SDR2020 signal without remapping the embedded HDR luminance levels to SDR limits.
> 
> So perhaps I'm missing your point here...
> 
> Thanks


if you're happy with the results, then its probably a moot point. It was purely a suggestion to prevent you having to overlay two different sets of tone mapping, and also give you a route to be able to accurately calibrate greyscale and gamma, which presumably you can't do with the current method.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> The problem here is there are no “SDR limits” when it comes to luminance. This is why I’m confused about why the Sony is having this issue. I could understand it not supporting 2020 with a SDR signal, we’ve seen that with other displays, but limiting luminance doesn’t make any sense at all. Which makes me question it as a setup issue. But without having access to one I can’t say for sure. I wish there was someone local with that combo that I could test out. Then I could provide feedback for you or other members with this setup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





bobof said:


> Same here, seems positively nuts, since you're effectively crippling the maximum screen size for no obvious reason.
> Unless the laser can't run that hot for long or some other weirdness.



Its nothing to do with the laser running in high output...thats not an issue.

There seems to be some processing in the 5000 that remaps HDR levels when the flag is SDR. It processes 2020 automatically. I'm not saying this is correct or purposeful - who knows at the moment - just the behavior. When it sees the HDR flag, all seems quite well.

Kris - if you're ever in the NYC area, you're welcome to come visit. There are really no settings that can circumvent this behavior, unless there is something buried in the service menu...


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> if you're happy with the results, then its probably a moot point. It was purely a suggestion to prevent you having to overlay two different sets of tone mapping, and also give you a route to be able to accurately calibrate greyscale and gamma, which presumably you can't do with the current method.


I'm not being dismissive, just not following the suggestion - I'm open to explore options!


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> Its nothing to do with the laser running in high output...thats not an issue.
> 
> There seems to be some processing in the 5000 that remaps HDR levels when the flag is SDR. It processes 2020 automatically. I'm not saying this is correct or purposeful - who knows at the moment - just the behavior. When it sees the HDR flag, all seems quite well.
> 
> Kris - if you're ever in the NYC area, you're welcome to come visit. There are really no settings that can circumvent this behavior, unless there is something buried in the service menu...


There's no such things as HDR levels when the flag is SDR - they're just SDR levels at that point, so it seems odd.
Am I right in thinking you're not actually making a 3DLUT based on the profile of the projector in SDR mode?


----------



## thrang

bobof said:


> There's no such things as HDR levels when the flag is SDR - they're just SDR levels at that point, so it seems odd.
> Am I right in thinking you're not actually making a 3DLUT based on the profile of the projector in SDR mode?


I'm using the 3D calibrated LUT done by Ken Whitcomb, which was done as SDR out to the 5000. This is the same approach that others are using here with Ken's calibration...

Unless there is something "wrong" with the calibration workflow (he used Calman). That would be the only other common denominator between myself and others here with 5000/Radiance/calibration workflow

EDIT - Is it possible the SDR patterns were used inadvertently? I presume that could lead to these results...

I have Chromapure and a Display 3 Pro.. I guess I could dust this stuff off and see if there's a step by step guide on how to do this myself to compare...


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> I'm using the 3D calibrated LUT done by Ken Whitcomb, which was done as SDR out to the 5000. This is the same approach that others are using here with Ken's calibration...
> 
> Unless there is something "wrong" with the calibration workflow (he used Calman). That would be the only other common denominator between myself and others here with 5000/Radiance/calibration workflow


Don't know Calman. With Lightspace I known you have to create two LUTs and upload to different CMS memories in the Radiance. One for REC709, and one for REC2020. If you have the Radiance sending REC709 and REC2020 you will have to have made two measurement profiles, one at each output type from the Radiance. If you don't do that you would end up constrained by the LUT you create for REC709 I think (or perhaps not have an active own profiled LUT at all).

Anyway, sounds like you're in the hands of a pro so not much point trying to second guess how it is set up.


----------



## thrang

@jrp

Jim if I send you my Radiance config, can you analyze it to see if the calibration was done correctly? (are the HDR2020 luminance values limited to SDR for example, and perhaps what patterns were used for a given cms calibration)?

Thanks


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> @jrp
> 
> Jim if I send you my Radiance config, can you analyze it to see if the calibration was done correctly? (are the HDR2020 luminance values limited to SDR for example, and perhaps what patterns were used for a given cms calibration)?
> 
> Thanks


Sorry, but not able to look at the calibration and see from the config file.


----------



## desertdome

thrang said:


> Hi Wookie
> 
> Not following here... if the Sony kicks to HDR mode, there is no need to use an external tool for a custom gamma - it looks great in the hybrid approach. The Sony HDR mode does not have the issues the JVC has with its HDR Gamma mode being way off...
> 
> The issue is to see if the Sony can process a SDR2020 signal without remapping the embedded HDR luminance levels to SDR limits.
> 
> So perhaps I'm missing your point here...
> 
> Thanks


There are no "embedded HDR luminance levels" when you send an SDR2020 signal to whatever is next in the signal chain. The correct setting for this is HDR off and Color Space set to BT.2020. I've been to Sony headquarters in San Diego for HDR training with Sony engineers. While Sony prefers to use their own tone mapping, they have also enabled one to use upstream tone mapping and send SDR2020 to the 5000ES. It does not remap anything when using the correct settings. 

Sony says in their manual, "If the setting is not correct for the input content, the bright and dark areas of the video may appear too bright or too dark." This happens if you leave HDR to Auto, but send it SDR2020 content. Perhaps this is what you see as the problem. I think the HDR mode is triggered by the detected color space. One is either going to let the Sony do the tone mapping and send it HDR and BT.2020 or let the Lumagen (or madVR) do the tone mapping and set HDR to Off. There really isn't a use case when one wants to have the Lumagen tone map some of the time and have the Sony tone map some of the time and have the HDR Auto setting detect the HDR metadata. I just sent the 5000ES back to Sony today so I can't check into this further.


----------



## thrang

desertdome said:


> There are no "embedded HDR luminance levels" when you send an SDR2020 signal to whatever is next in the signal chain. The correct setting for this is HDR off and Color Space set to BT.2020. I've been to Sony headquarters in San Diego for HDR training with Sony engineers. While Sony prefers to use their own tone mapping, they have also enabled one to use upstream tone mapping and send SDR2020 to the 5000ES. It does not remap anything when using the correct settings.
> 
> Sony says in their manual, "If the setting is not correct for the input content, the bright and dark areas of the video may appear too bright or too dark." This happens if you leave HDR to Auto, but send it SDR2020 content. Perhaps this is what you see as the problem. I think the HDR mode is triggered by the detected color space. One is either going to let the Sony do the tone mapping and send it HDR and BT.2020 or let the Lumagen (or madVR) do the tone mapping and set HDR to Off. There really isn't a use case when one wants to have the Lumagen tone map some of the time and have the Sony tone map some of the time and have the HDR Auto setting detect the HDR metadata. I just sent the 5000ES back to Sony today so I can't check into this further.


I've tried HDR off with a tone-mapped SDR2020 signal from the Radiance and it does not change the presentation of the image: _Auto_ and _Off_ for HDR are exactly the same. So this is not a "correct" setting in my experience (and the experience of others here who have compared both approaches)

As much as I theoretically agree with you that that hybrid approach doesn't make "sense," it is in actuality the better approach for Radiance and 5000 users as far as I can ascertain in my content testing to date...and after conversations with Sony, and other comments posted here about limitations with the current processing in the 5000. It seems to assume an SDR flag means "that's the color volume" it should expect in the incoming signal; yet the tone-mapped signal of course contains a larger color volume (and peak whites) - greater than expected for SDR (29 fl/100 nits?). According to Kris, other devices, such as the JVC 4500, could care less how the flag is set in the incoming signal, and processes/displays whatever is presented within the limitations of the device. Apparently the Sony cares for some reason.

Everything I understand is that color output is impacted by both 2020 (P3) as well as the higher luminance values of HDR. So if the 5000 is not processing this correctly, brightness and color range would be reduced, which is pretty much what I see.

I mean, take the Radiance out of the chain - an HDR signal from your UHD player is brighter and more vibrant on the 5000 then sending tone-mapped SDR-2020 from the Radiance to it. It just is.

I'm ALWAYS open to re-looking at a wrong setting, or just learning more - but again, a few others are also trying this hybrid approach and are much more satisfied with the results. Again, this appears not to be a Radiance issue, but how Sony is processing higher luminance values via a SDR2020 signal.


https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nits-and-bits-hdr-and-color


----------



## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> The problem here is there are no “SDR limits” when it comes to luminance. This is why I’m confused about why the Sony is having this issue. I could understand it not supporting 2020 with a SDR signal, we’ve seen that with other displays, but limiting luminance doesn’t make any sense at all. Which makes me question it as a setup issue. But without having access to one I can’t say for sure. I wish there was someone local with that combo that I could test out. Then I could provide feedback for you or other members with this setup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hi Kris:

I see you are getting a 885 for review next week, perhaps you could look at this for the Sony users here.


----------



## Kris Deering

LJG said:


> Hi Kris:
> 
> I see you are getting a 885 for review next week, perhaps you could look at this for the Sony users here.


Not getting it for review, it is the unit that I already reviewed some time ago. I am just going to play around with it again starting next week. Want to see how it reacts to the Lumagen stuff, though I don't know if it has the same issues that have been brought up for the 5000ES. But I'll chime in on what I find.


----------



## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> Not getting it for review, it is the unit that I already reviewed some time ago. I am just going to play around with it again starting next week. Want to see how it reacts to the Lumagen stuff, though I don't know if it has the same issues that have been brought up for the 5000ES. But I'll chime in on what I find.


Thanks Kris!!


----------



## SJHT

Just got included in the beta of the Lumagen Pro Kaleidescape costar. Not sure how much I can say,lol, but it is SLICK.....


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> Just got included in the beta of the Lumagen Pro Kaleidescape costar. Not sure how much I can say,lol, but it is SLICK.....


So is that basically using the Lumagen Pro to do the switching instead of the diddy little switch they usually use, or something else? What's the benefit of doing it with the Pro?


----------



## SJHT

bobof said:


> So is that basically using the Lumagen Pro to do the switching instead of the diddy little switch they usually use, or something else? What's the benefit of doing it with the Pro?


Faster, less hardware, separate configs, etc......


----------



## LJG

I am having issues running my Directv mini 4K through Lumagen, all of the 4K signals (104,105,106) are muted/off no audio or video. The 720P and 1080i are outputting just fine. Running same cables direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly. Anyone else running DTV mini4K through Lumagen into Sony 5000ES?


----------



## jrp

For those who do not know what the Kaleidescape Costar feature is, it allows a Kaleidescape Strato to be the master device and control another Kaleidescape player using a single OSD. If you own a Kaleidescape player, or wish to, contact Kaleidescape for more information.

The Kaleidescape "Costar for Lumagen" uses the Strato's HDMI Info Frame output to tell the Radiance Pro whether to select the Strato output or the "Costar" output. This is better than the external auto-switch (or internal Pro auto-switch) since the output of both the Strato and the Costar can be left on. This eliminates the "acquire a new signal" delay needed for the auto-switch Costar variant. With the auto-switch approach the time it takes the HDMI input chip to acquire a new signal as either the Strato or the Costar output is enabled has to be added to the switching time.

As mentioned, using the Costar for Lumagen, you can also have a different input setup for the Strato, and the Costar player.

Kaleidescape charges for the "Costar for Lumagen." For new sales of the Radiance Pro in the USA or Canada, Lumagen is offering a $500 retail credit toward the purchase of a new Radiance Pro once the customer shows they have purchased the Costar for Lumagen feature from Kaleidescape. Ask your Lumagen dealer to contact Lumagen for details of this limited time offer.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> I am having issues running my Directv mini 4K through Lumagen, all of the 4K signals (104,105,106) are muted/off no audio or video. The 720P and 1080i are outputting just fine. Running same cables direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly. Anyone else running DTV mini4K through Lumagen into Sony 5000ES?


I have a DirecTV Genie 54 w a 4k mini-Genie running 4k into Radiance Pro then to 5000ES and no issues whatsoever. For many months now! Check the 4k mini-Genie Settings menu to ensure you can output native rate including 4k.


----------



## LJG

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I have a DirecTV Genie 54 w a 4k mini-Genie running 4k into Radiance Pro then to 5000ES and no issues whatsoever. For many months now! Check the 4k mini-Genie Settings menu to ensure you can output native rate including 4k.


Thanks for the try Steve, but Native rate settings are correct in DTV mini, not sure what is going on.


----------



## SJHT

I have Dish 4K, but is there some type of HLG setting you need to set on the Pro or DTV box? Just guessing.... SJ


----------



## LJG

SJHT said:


> I have Dish 4K, but is there some type of HLG setting you need to set on the Pro or DTV box? Just guessing.... SJ


The box Mini4K is set correctly I am not sure why both the audio and video is muted for 4K broadcast's through Lumagen, I just swapped mini 4k boxes and both work direct to Sony but neither works through Lumagen. It's very odd and must be a setting in the Lumagen some where buried.
where.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> The box Mini4K is set correctly I am not sure why both the audio and video is muted for 4K broadcast's through Lumagen, I just swapped mini 4k boxes and both work direct to Sony but neither works through Lumagen. It's very odd and must be a setting in the Lumagen some where buried.
> where.


If its the Lumagen - give JimP at Lumagen a call tomorrow and have him walk you through steps to check your audio out settings! If its the Lumagen that will solve the issue.

Another thing you can do first is simply replace the HDMI cable from Mini4k to Lumagen to see if that might solve the issue.


----------



## LJG

Issue resolved thanks all for help


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Issue resolved thanks all for help


What was it? HDMI cable?


----------



## LJG

EDID from switcher which did not cause a problem direct to projector, so I did't re-look at switcher until I tried everything else. Upgrade firmware to switcher and it plays nicely with Lumagen now.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> EDID from switcher which did not cause a problem direct to projector, so I did't re-look at switcher until I tried everything else. Upgrade firmware to switcher and it plays nicely with Lumagen now.


Are you using the switcher box after your DirecTV mini4k? (I assume so since you have a 5000ES projector AND multiple flat tvs for multiple sports watching at once!)

What switcher box are you using?


----------



## cappy1

tibia said:


> ...if you setup both Chromapure and the Pro to do SDR2020 calibration but using a Rec 709 source and 2.4 power law gamma Auto-Calibration works fantastically well.


Why would you want to use Rec.709 instead of Rec.2020?


----------



## thrang

cappy1 said:


> Why would you want to use Rec.709 instead of Rec.2020?


Anyone email Lumagen lately? Two days I’m getting bounce backs from Jim’s address...


----------



## wjchan

thrang said:


> It seems to assume an SDR flag means "that's the color volume" it should expect in the incoming signal; yet the tone-mapped signal of course contains a larger color volume (and peak whites) - greater than expected for SDR (29 fl/100 nits?).


I did some quick measurements today with a Jeti 1511 probe. Playing the windowed 100% white 1000- and 4000-nits patterns from R. Masciola's Advanced Calibration Disc through my Panny 900 player, I got about 208 nits using the HDR->SDR IM setting calibrated by Ken Whitcomb. When I switched to HDR into Sony--still through the Lumagen albeit uncalibrated--I got about 220 nits. Ken told me there is a ~8% loss due to the calibration so the numbers look fine at first glance. Is there anything else you want me to test?

--wilson

P.S. I was zoomed into 16:9 on my 140" 2.40 ST100 screen with laser at 50 and that's why it's kind of bright.


----------



## mskreis

thrang said:


> Anyone email Lumagen lately? Two days I’m getting bounce backs from Jim’s address...




Yep. I’ve noted the same. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mskreis said:


> Yep. I’ve noted the same.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 Well they are still there so i guess it's an email issue.....try sending to [email protected] u m a g......etc and see what happens


----------



## Gordon Fraser

i should add i received emails from them on friday...


----------



## thrang

Gordon Fraser said:


> i should add i received emails from them on friday...


Both Jim’s and the Beta email addresses still down - keep getting undeliverable notices 

Hope all is well...


----------



## ccool96

thrang said:


> Both Jim’s and the Beta email addresses still down - keep getting undeliverable notices
> 
> 
> 
> Hope all is well...




I had the same issue, but emailed [email protected] and they got right back with me. 

Not sure what’s going on. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## thrang

ccool96 said:


> I had the same issue, but emailed [email protected] and they got right back with me.
> 
> Not sure what’s going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Did you mention that the other emails have been bouncing for days? Did they say anything?


----------



## GerryWaz

A while back I had trouble getting emails from Jim on the beta. Turns out my email service had them blacklisted.


Wondering if it's the same type of issue again?????


https://mxtoolbox.com/domain/lumagen.com/


----------



## jrp

Okay everyone ... yes we are still here. Please don't interpret the email-gods wars in the Ether as anything to do with Lumagen. BTW: I am still getting hundreds of emails a day (many SPAM unfortunately). So this is an isolated issue apparently.

Our email service provider has on occasion hosted too many SPAM generators and got us thrown out with the bath water. No idea if this is what you are having happen. However, it should affect all Lumagen email not just me or RadiancePro_beta (which BTW you should consider switching to the shorter [email protected]). So I am not sure why and email to sales would work and one to me would not. Might be a address update issue somewhere out there in the Ether.

If you see lumagen.com on a blacklist website, please let me know (503-574-2211 if email is not working). I will then be able to have a specific issue with our ISP.

Thanks for posting about the issue. If you are concerned about anything please pick up the phone and call (and hopefully our phone system is not down at the same time)


----------



## *Harry*

so let's go on with issues 

I'm in concern with my 4446.
Last WE I've tried to install Beta 050618.
The first attempt was via USB, 112Kbaud (that's my preffered connection, working fine with LightSpace for instance) 
 

Result:
A checksum error message came up at the end of download section 1
I've repeated the update via RS232 -> same issue.
Also with a lowered link speed at 56k and with the previous Beta (050418)

Then I've temporarily unplugged the AC adapter. After that, the 4446 didn't came up, only the fan was spinning up.
So my last chance was the update in bootloader mode - and thanks god, that worked fine ...

Any ideas what could cause those update issues?
I have to say, that this wasn't the first time that I had this update trouble.
Don't hope, that my board gets broken ...


----------



## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> Not getting it for review, it is the unit that I already reviewed some time ago. I am just going to play around with it again starting next week. Want to see how it reacts to the Lumagen stuff, though I don't know if it has the same issues that have been brought up for the 5000ES. But I'll chime in on what I find.


Any further light on this Kris?


----------



## mskreis

*Harry* said:


> so let's go on with issues
> 
> I'm in concern with my 4446.
> Last WE I've tried to install Beta 050618.
> The first attempt was via USB, 112Kbaud (that's my preffered connection, working fine with LightSpace for instance)
> 
> 
> Result:
> A checksum error message came up at the end of download section 1
> I've repeated the update via RS232 -> same issue.
> Also with a lowered link speed at 56k and with the previous Beta (050418)
> 
> Then I've temporarily unplugged the AC adapter. After that, the 4446 didn't came up, only the fan was spinning up.
> So my last chance was the update in bootloader mode - and thanks god, that worked fine ...
> 
> Any ideas what could cause those update issues?
> I have to say, that this wasn't the first time that I had this update trouble.
> Don't hope, that my board gets broken ...




This happened to me for the first time several months ago for the first time on my Pro. I forced the update and haven’t had a problem since despite multiple updates. It’s disconcerting but has not recurred. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

LJG said:


> Any further light on this Kris?



No, my full time job is keeping me busier than normal lately with lots of travel. So I haven't had a lot of chance to do just about anything HT related that I've wanted to lately. Probably won't get to this until mid-month at the earliest as I'm leaving tomorrow for a long trip for work and then have family stuff going on after that. I started a new position at my work near the end of last year and I'm putting in a LOT of travel and extra work to get up to speed in the new position. Hoping by fall I'll be up to speed and things will settle down for more hobby oriented stuff.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 052518*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*FW Beta 052518*
Small improvement in color precision. 
Added dither option to menu under *Output: Styles: HDMI Format*. 
Fix for setting "Lbox Zoom" to off and over zooming when input aspect greater than 16:9. 
Other small bugfixes and improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Display Max Light 400 (actual peak is 23 fL with my current bulb on a 140" scope 1.0 gain screen)
> 
> Mapping:
> 
> Crossover is 2000 nits
> 
> >2000 is -15, 4, 9, 8, 0 , 0


----------



## jrp

Our ISP appears to have resolved our email "mx lookup" issue and several who were having problems sending email to lumagen.com can now get email to us.

===== 

On update issues:

If you have an update fail, I recommend doing a "Boot Mode Update" to recover. It is possible a failed update can prevent future "normal" updates from working correctly.

For the Boot Mode Update the processor is not running normal code and so can dedicate 100% of its resources to the update. 

Boot Mode Update is described in the Tech Tip that comes with each update.

If you are updating with a portable computer we recommend always have the PC on wall power during the update. Some portables require the external power to correctly complete a Radiance Pro update.


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz output microcode in current FW updates?*

@jrp -

I may have missed if this was explicitly stated somewhere.
Do the newer firmwares use the "new" 18 GHz firmware?
In the past you could play with toggling new 18GHz chip FW on/off.

*0850* - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
*0851* - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent


I never did that, so wondering if I should, or if it is already baked into the newer firmwares.


Thanks,

Mike

EDIT: On 06/13/18 I 0851'd FW to go from 0->1 to new 18 GHz output microcode

RE: (bold added)


> All units with 18 GHz output(s) ship with the original 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> On Info Pg 4 (press OK 4 times) at lower left is "18G:" in a different color.
> This is followed by either "??/?,n" for the 424x units or "*????/??,n*" for the 444X units.
> The ?'s are Y for 18 GHz card, N for 9 GHz card, or "-" if no card.
> For the 18 GHz microcode the *"n" is 0 for original *18 GHz output microcode or *1 for the new 18 GHz output microcode*.


----------



## Ian_Currie

SJHT said:


> Kris, these setting layered on top of Ken Whitcomb’s work on my setup are awesome. Thank you! SJ


Curious, which projector are you using?


----------



## SJHT

Ian_Currie said:


> Curious, which projector are you using?


Sony 885 (with a ST100 Stewart Screen).... SJ


----------



## SJHT

Mike_WI said:


> @jrp -
> 
> I may have missed if this was explicitly stated somewhere.
> Do the newer firmwares use the "new" 18 GHz firmware?
> In the past you could play with toggling new 18GHz chip FW on/off.
> 
> *0850* - switch to original firmware
> command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
> *0851* - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
> command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
> 
> 
> I never did that, so wondering if I should, or if it is already baked into the newer firmwares.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike


Somewhere he mentioned you could look at the info screens and tell which version you are running. Think something was set to "1"? SJ


----------



## rolldog

LJG said:


> I am having issues running my Directv mini 4K through Lumagen, all of the 4K signals (104,105,106) are muted/off no audio or video. The 720P and 1080i are outputting just fine. Running same cables direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly. Anyone else running DTV mini4K through Lumagen into Sony 5000ES?


I'm running a DIRECTV 4K mini through my Lumagen onto a JVC DLA-RS4500K, with a Paladin DCR lens. All my equipment was only setup yesterday, and I have to power cycle my Lumagen whenever changing sources. After power cycling, everything works fine. My installers are coming back on Monday to finish setting everything up, tweaks, etc. I chose to live with the power cycling over the weekend and being able to use the projector instead of waiting until Monday when everything will be finished. With that being said, after power cycling the Lumagen, my DIRECTV 4K mini works just fine. I watched River Monsters last night on ch 104.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

My 4k Mini started acting strange after a reset, on the 4k channel saying it could only output 1080p because thats all my tv (Radiance Pro) could accept. I found in its menu it was unchecking 4k resolution, so I rechecked it. And then I restarted the 4k Mini and now all is fine.


----------



## mskreis

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> My 4k Mini started acting strange after a reset, on the 4k channel saying it could only output 1080p because thats all my tv (Radiance Pro) could accept. I found in its menu it was unchecking 4k resolution, so I rechecked it. And then I restarted the 4k Mini and now all is fine.




This glitch happens on my Mini frequently. I am now routinely checking the video output settings on the Mini due to the frequency with which my 4K gets unchecked. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jamesmil

I occasionally get a blank screen switching to the DirecTV C61k, but I find just changing channels (with “native” set in the C61 video output settings) is enough to sync again and resume working.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Somewhere he mentioned you could look at the info screens and tell which version you are running. Think something was set to "1"? SJ


All units with 18 GHz output(s) ship with the original 18 GHz output microcode.

On Info Pg 4 (press OK 4 times) at lower left is "18G:" in a different color. This is followed by either "??/?,n" for the 424x units or "????/??,n" for the 444X units. The ?'s are Y for 18 GHz card, N for 9 GHz card, or "-" if no card. For the 18 GHz microcode the "n" is 0 for original 18 GHz output microcode or 1 for the new 18 GHz output microcode.

==== 

Not to be a broken record, but if you have switching issues the most likely solution is better HDMI cable(s). And often it is the cable between the Pro and the Projector/TV that needs to be improved since often the issue is the projector/TV not locking on an HDMI restart. These can happen on a channel or input change.

There could of course be some compatibility issues with the DirecTV Mini boxes being used with the Pro. We have had some report if issues in the past, but I believe these have been resolved by switching to a better 18 GHz HDMI cable. Not sure what the current state of compatibility is between the Pro and the DirecTV Mini, but we have not had recent reports of issues (not including these posts).

If you continue to have issues please contact Lumagen support by email or phone.


----------



## Bluemalu

jrp said:


> All units with 18 GHz output(s) ship with the original 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> On Info Pg 4 (press OK 4 times) at lower left is "18G:" in a different color. This is followed by either "??/?,n" for the 424x units or "????/??,n" for the 444X units. The ?'s are Y for 18 GHz card, N for 9 GHz card, or "-" if no card. For the 18 GHz microcode the "n" is 0 for original 18 GHz output microcode or 1 for the new 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> ====
> 
> Not to be a broken record, but if you have switching issues the most likely solution is better HDMI cable(s). And often it is the cable between the Pro and the Projector/TV that needs to be improved since often the issue is the projector/TV not locking on an HDMI restart. These can happen on a channel or input change.
> 
> There could of course be some compatibility issues with the DirecTV Mini boxes being used with the Pro. We have had some report if issues in the past, but I believe these have been resolved by switching to a better 18 GHz HDMI cable. Not sure what the current state of compatibility is between the Pro and the DirecTV Mini, but we have not had recent reports of issues (not including these posts).
> 
> If you continue to have issues please contact Lumagen support by email or phone.


Silly question of the day for 18GHz cards.

If it's not broke should we keep with Original Microcode (0)
or
Change to New Microcode (1) and try to break it?


----------



## jrp

Bluemalu said:


> for 18GHz cards.
> 
> If it's not broke should we keep with Original Microcode (0) or change to New Microcode (1) and try to break it?


Generally we recommend not changing the output microcode if it is working for you. We know the Sony VW5000ES often has issues with the new 18 GHz output microcode and so if you have the VW5000ES definitely stay with the original 18 GHz output microcode.

That said, the new 18 GHz output microcode has been measured on a Tektronix HDMI tester to have lower jitter than the original output microcode. Does this matter you ask. The answer is maybe, depending on the quality of the rest of your system.

Lower jitter is never a bad thing, but depending on the conditions as long as all the bits "get there" jitter is often not a concern for video. In the 1080p60 days, the bit error rates for HDMI seemed excellent, and a lower jitter would not (IMO) have changed the video quality. However, even at 1080p, jitter can affect the audio quality - if you have good enough gear to hear the difference. Jitter in an audio stream can make 24-bit audio sound like 12-bit audio. That is why AVRs and audio processors have jitter reduction circuitry to reduce the jitter in the source. However, I think a good argument can be made that less jitter on the source means lower jitter out of the jitter reduction circuitry and this is a good thing.

With 4k, I believe that most systems are going to suffer from an increase HDMI bit error rate compared to 1080p60. These bit errors are often due to marginal HDMI cables (there I go again about HDMI cable quality) causing issues like signal reflections that increase jitter.

Since the new output microcode has lower jitter, if there are not issues with a specific device keeping you from using it, you *might* see a picture improvement (due to reduced bit error rate), and *might* hear an audio quality improvement (if you have great audio gear). So, even though the original microcode is working, if you are adventuresome you can give the new 18 GHz output microcode a try. If it works reliably with your gear, then it should be as good as, or *potentially* provide even better image quality and audio than the original output microcode.

This is a controversial subject but I believe it is possible to improve picture and audio by reducing jitter (which can involve using better interconnects in addition to using the new 18 GHz output microcode).


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz output New Microcode (1)*



Bluemalu said:


> Silly question of the day for 18GHz cards.
> 
> If it's not broke should we keep with Original Microcode (0)
> or
> Change to New Microcode (1) and try to break it?





jrp said:


> Generally we recommend not changing the output microcode if it is working for you. We know the Sony VW5000ES often has issues with the new 18 GHz output microcode and so if you have the VW5000ES definitely stay with the original 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> That said, the new 18 GHz output microcode has been measured on a Tektronix HDMI tester to have lower jitter than the original output microcode. Does this matter you ask. The answer is maybe, depending on the quality of the rest of your system.
> 
> Lower jitter is never a bad thing, but depending on the conditions as long as all the bits "get there" jitter is often not a concern for video. In the 1080p60 days, the bit error rates for HDMI seemed excellent, and a lower jitter would not (IMO) have changed the video quality. However, even at 1080p, jitter can affect the audio quality - if you have good enough gear to hear the difference. Jitter in an audio stream can make 24-bit audio sound like 12-bit audio. That is why AVRs and audio processors have jitter reduction circuitry to reduce the jitter in the source. However, I think a good argument can be made that less jitter on the source means lower jitter out of the jitter reduction circuitry and this is a good thing.
> 
> With 4k, I believe that most systems are going to suffer from an increase HDMI bit error rate compared to 1080p60. These bit errors are often due to marginal HDMI cables (there I go again about HDMI cable quality) causing issues like signal reflections that increase jitter.
> 
> Since the new output microcode has lower jitter, if there are not issues with a specific device keeping you from using it, you *might* see a picture improvement (due to reduced bit error rate), and *might* hear an audio quality improvement (if you have great audio gear). So, even though the original microcode is working, if you are adventuresome you can give the new 18 GHz output microcode a try. If it works reliably with your gear, then it should be as good as, or *potentially* provide even better image quality and audio than the original output microcode.
> 
> This is a controversial subject but I believe it is possible to improve picture and audio by reducing jitter (which can involve using better interconnects in addition to using the new 18 GHz output microcode).


Interesting.
I just did the old -> new 18 GHz output microcode switch.
Things were working, but figured I should be on the latest FW.
I did it at the end of a movie and everything appeared find after, but I haven't run through many on/off and source types to test.

Mike

EDIT: 06-18-18 watched a movie in 4K with the kids without incident, so appears to work for me with new 18 GHz microcode

EDIT #2 : 06-24-18
Playing around with Lumagen Radiance Pro FW for 18 GHz output.
New FW doesn't allow 5.1 audio (on Agents of Shield season 5) via Amazon -> Netflix
Old FW does.
Back to old

0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> With 4k, I believe that most systems are going to suffer from an increase HDMI bit error rate compared to 1080p60. These bit errors are often due to marginal HDMI cables (there I go again about HDMI cable quality) causing issues like signal reflections that increase jitter.


Jim, do you envisage that once we start seeing new cables released in longer runs (presumably fibre), that meet the HDMI 2.1 spec of 48Gbps, this cable issue will be finally put to bed?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> Lower jitter is never a bad thing, but depending on the conditions as long as all the bits "get there" jitter is often not a concern for video. In the 1080p60 days, the bit error rates for HDMI seemed excellent, and a lower jitter would not (IMO) have changed the video quality. However, even at 1080p, jitter can affect the audio quality - if you have good enough gear to hear the difference. Jitter in an audio stream can make 24-bit audio sound like 12-bit audio. That is why AVRs and audio processors have jitter reduction circuitry to reduce the jitter in the source. However, I think a good argument can be made that less jitter on the source means lower jitter out of the jitter reduction circuitry and this is a good thing.


My experience on the audio side totally agrees that the better/less jitter the source the better the sonics in my own system!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> Generally we recommend not changing the output microcode if it is working for you. We know the Sony VW5000ES often has issues with the new 18 GHz output microcode and so if you have the VW5000ES definitely stay with the original 18 GHz output microcode.


I have the Sony 5000ES and several times over months tried changing to new microcode. Each time caused nothing but problems. If you have the Sony 5000ES do not even bother trying the new microcode if you want to save total aggravation! Even if it works at the very start, within days you will start having insurmountable issues. At one point the Radiance Pro pretty much locked up - have to then disconnect HDMI to projector and then enter codes for old 18 GHz firmware and then all is fine.


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> Jim, do you envisage that once we start seeing new cables released in longer runs (presumably fibre), that meet the HDMI 2.1 spec of 48Gbps, this cable issue will be finally put to bed?


Can't hurt, but HDMI issues are not just the cable. In fact when I say "you need a better HDMI cable" it may well be the cable meets spec but the downstream device input itself is marginal (we see this a lot) and is taking too much of the HDMI signal margin for itself. Generally changing the HDMI cable is the only "degree of freedom" you have and so improving it becomes part of solving issues even if the cable is in spec.

Fiber cables, and active HDMI cables, help a lot since the cable designer knows the output side is driving only a connector and a couple inches of PCB trace. The fiber (or any active) HDMI cable output does not need "cable EQ" and also can use slower output edge rates. This in turn makes it easier on the input of the downstream device and will reduce the problems caused by transmission line discontinuities inside the receiving device.

==== 

And of course it's not always a cable issue. We have seen many issues in HDMI implementations in various devices. Recently we saw one HDR TV lock up when sent an HDMI "Video Mute" command, and we had to figure out a way to keep it from locking up while still allowing the Pro to mute video when switching. We also recently had a streamer source come in due to a customer saying it had issues with the Pro. Patrick was able to figure out what it was doing wrong and reported back to the vendor. Unfortunately the vendor is buying the HDMI board from a third party and could only say they would report our findings back to the board manufacturer. Compounding the issue is this board is used in a number of streaming devices, and so all have these issues found in our testing of the one in our lab. Improving the HDMI cable would not help with these issues.

====

Also note I am not saying the Radiance Pro is perfect. The HDMI I/O chips we use in the Radiance Pro are autonomous. So for better or worse there are some bugs in other devices we cannot work around, and there can be issues in the HDMI I/O chips we use that we cannot work around, because we do not have the information needed to program the I/O chips. Don't get me wrong the chips we use are good, and we have spent a lot of time figuring out how to work around issues in the chips themselves and in other devices even though the Radiance Pro microprocessor's control of these chips is limited. At this point we are happy to report that the vast majority of issues are not in the Pro but in other devices and/or cabling, and that we have been able to work around almost all of the issues we have found.


----------



## Bluemalu

I'm game, I'll give the new code a go, although my audio system is rather prosaic and archaic; Source Devices -> Lumagen -> HDMI to SPDIF -> SPDIF Delay unit -> Cyrus AV8. I'm currently saving up the pennies for a nice new Trinnov Altitude 16.


----------



## Craig Peer

For anyone that has a Panasonic UB900 and has recently done a firmware update - if you are experiencing syncing problems with your Radiance Pro, check your UB900 setup. It seems that the firmware update changed the output on my UB900 to 4K / 60p 4:4:4, from my previous setting of 4K / 24p. It caused slower syncing times, and the occasional input switching to get it to sync. Just FYI.


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## Ian_Currie

Craig Peer said:


> For anyone that has a Panasonic UB900 and has recently done a firmware update - if you are experiencing syncing problems with your Radiance Pro, check your UB900 setup. It seems that the firmware update changed the output on my UB900 to 4K / 60p 4:4:4, from my previous setting of 4K / 24p. It caused slower syncing times, and the occasional input switching to get it to sync. Just FYI.


Thanks for the heads up, Craig!


----------



## Craig Peer

Ian_Currie said:


> Thanks for the heads up, Craig!


When everything is working fine, it's always fun to install new firmware updates on both your 4K Blu-ray player and your Radiance Pro on the same day and see if you can screw things up. Turns out loading the newer Lumagen HDMI output microcode ( Menu 0851 ) fixed my sync problem, which had persisted even after setting the UB900's video output back to where I had it originally.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Craig Peer said:


> When everything is working fine, it's always fun to install new firmware updates on both your 4K Blu-ray player and your Radiance Pro on the same day and see if you can screw things up. Turns out loading the newer Lumagen HDMI output microcode ( Menu 0851 ) fixed my sync problem, which had persisted even after setting the UB900's video output back to where I had it originally.


Well that's interesting and good to know!


----------



## mskreis

Craig Peer said:


> When everything is working fine, it's always fun to install new firmware updates on both your 4K Blu-ray player and your Radiance Pro on the same day and see if you can screw things up. Turns out loading the newer Lumagen HDMI output microcode ( Menu 0851 ) fixed my sync problem, which had persisted even after setting the UB900's video output back to where I had it originally.




My sync problems have been completely remedied by a Vertex between my Pro and 640. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ian_Currie

mskreis said:


> My sync problems have been completely remedied by a Vertex between my Pro and 640.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Am I the only one who has no idea what a Vertex is?


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> Am I the only one who has no idea what a Vertex is?


Are you using it at 18G? My Vertex and pro quite dislike each other at 18G. Tried lots of different certified passive 2m-ish cables. Should be getting a proper 18G capable display soon which will be interesting from the point of removing the Vertex. Though the 18G display is a DLAX7900... 

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


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## bobof

mskreis said:


> My sync problems have been completely remedied by a Vertex between my Pro and 640.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sorry I meant to quote this post not the one below. Are you sure it is still working at 18G? (are you suing 18g?) Earlier Vertex firmwares had an issue I noticed where the Lumagen would only detect them as a 9G sink.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


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## mskreis

bobof said:


> Are you using it at 18G? My Vertex and pro quite dislike each other at 18G. Tried lots of different certified passive 2m-ish cables. Should be getting a proper 18G capable display soon which will be interesting from the point of removing the Vertex. Though the 18G display is a DLAX7900...
> 
> Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk




Yes, 18G and with latest microcode. The Vertex is connected via a 10m Ruipro cable from the Pro and the Vertex is connected to the JVC with a 2m Monoprice certified premium high speed cable. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mskreis

Ian_Currie said:


> Am I the only one who has no idea what a Vertex is?




Here’s the description:

https://www.hdfury.com/product/vertex-4k60-444-600mhz/




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bobof

mskreis said:


> Yes, 18G and with latest microcode. The Vertex is connected via a 10m Ruipro cable from the Pro and the Vertex is connected to the JVC with a 2m Monoprice certified premium high speed cable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The active fibre cable might be helping. I had much more luck when I inserted a Lindy 18G Hdmi copper re-timer between pro out and Vertex in, and I believe the active cables probably end up doing much the same.

Are you using a different Psu with the Vertex? They warn against unpowered Active Hdmi cables without one.
Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


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## mskreis

bobof said:


> The active fibre cable might be helping. I had much more luck when I inserted a Lindy 18G Hdmi copper re-timer between pro out and Vertex in, and I believe the active cables probably end up doing much the same.
> 
> Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk




I was hoping that the fibre cable alone would solve my sync issues but it did not. I had an unused Vertex and decided to give it a try. I’ve not had a sync issue since. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

Ian_Currie said:


> Am I the only one who has no idea what a Vertex is?


it's the latest version of the HD Fury. The HD Fury solved a lot of HDMI problems when 4K Blu-ray players first came out. it even allowed me to have a Sim Lumis Host 1080p projector and a Sony VW600 4K projector connected to my HDMI chain at the same time - without it I had all sorts of HDMI problems. Haven't needed one in quite a while though.


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## bobof

mskreis said:


> I was hoping that the fibre cable alone would solve my sync issues but it did not. I had an unused Vertex and decided to give it a try. I’ve not had a sync issue since.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's interesting and shows what a minefield this all seems to be. Good job I've kept the Vertex, might end up needing it still...


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## mikela

mskreis said:


> Yes, 18G and with latest microcode. The Vertex is connected via a 10m Ruipro cable from the Pro and the Vertex is connected to the JVC with a 2m Monoprice certified premium high speed cable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Would there be any difference using an Integral...which I happen to have?


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## mskreis

Craig Peer said:


> it's the latest version of the HD Fury. The HD Fury solved a lot of HDMI problems when 4K Blu-ray players first came out. it even allowed me to have a Sim Lumis Host 1080p projector and a Sony VW600 4K projector connected to my HDMI chain at the same time - without it I had all sorts of HDMI problems. Haven't needed one in quite a while though.




Yea, I had no intention of removing it from the box but got desperate due to endless sync issues. Jim indicated that the latest JVCs were marginal at 18 GHz input so I felt like I had nothing to lose. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mskreis

bobof said:


> Are you using a different Psu with the Vertex? They warn against unpowered Active Hdmi cables without one.
> Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk



No, standard PS that came with the Vertex. I have the RUIPRO voltage inserter and will likely try it in the near future to see if I need the Vertex. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mskreis

mikela said:


> Would there be any difference using an Integral...which I happen to have?




I don’t know but if you’re having sync issues why not give it a a try?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mikela

mskreis said:


> I don’t know but if you’re having sync issues why not give it a a try?


I put the Integral at the end of a 50' Monoprice Slimrun fiber cable and then ran a 6' Monoprice 18Gbs certified cable from the Integral to the RS600. No more sync issues.


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## mskreis

mikela said:


> I put the Integral at the end of a 50' Monoprice Slimrun fiber cable and then ran a 6' Monoprice 18Gbs certified cable from the Integral to the RS600. No more sync issues.




Very nice. I was pleasantly surprised by the results from the Vertex. It’s a shame we need the extra hardware for our equipment to function optimally - I’m using JVCs most current projector and the latest sources including Oppo, Xbox, PS4, Roku. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mike_WI

*The Cutting Edge vs. the Bleeding Edge*



mskreis said:


> Very nice. I was pleasantly surprised by the results from the Vertex. It’s a shame we need the extra hardware for our equipment to function optimally - I’m using JVCs most current projector and the latest sources including Oppo, Xbox, PS4, Roku.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was looking for attribution for the quote: "At the cutting edge, there is often blood", but found this instead...

*The Cutting Edge vs. the Bleeding Edge*
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/cutting-edge-vs-bleeding-edge/



> Some people would say that to be on the cutting edge means upgrading to the newest technology the moment it comes out, or even when it is merely in the beta testing stage.
> This is what I call the ‘bleeding edge’ however, because this is where you’re literally throwing caution to the wind and allowing yourself (and your equipment) to become the guinea pig.



Mike


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## bobof

mikela said:


> I put the Integral at the end of a 50' Monoprice Slimrun fiber cable and then ran a 6' Monoprice 18Gbs certified cable from the Integral to the RS600. No more sync issues.





mskreis said:


> Very nice. I was pleasantly surprised by the results from the Vertex. It’s a shame we need the extra hardware for our equipment to function optimally - I’m using JVCs most current projector and the latest sources including Oppo, Xbox, PS4, Roku.


In both cases I wonder what it is that the HDFURY devices are helping with. I have just got an X7900 and Radiance Pro, not commissioned them yet; though I have a Vertex in the cupboard I'd prefer not to use it. Have you tried the same devices without the Pro?


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## mikela

bobof said:


> In both cases I wonder what it is that the HDFURY devices are helping with.


My guess is HDCP handshaking issues.


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## mskreis

bobof said:


> In both cases I wonder what it is that the HDFURY devices are helping with. I have just got an X7900 and Radiance Pro, not commissioned them yet; though I have a Vertex in the cupboard I'd prefer not to use it. Have you tried the same devices without the Pro?




The ONLY reason I used the Vertex was because of all the sync issues between my Radiance Pro and JVC RS640. I even purchased the Ruipro cable based on recommendations from Lumagen in an attempt to solve sync problems. My Vertex was sitting in an unopened box initially as well. I’m glad I had it because I doubt I would have purchased it solely to troubleshoot my issues. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dlinsley

I use the Vertex to autoswitch user mode on my JVC RS600 projector, when the Radiance output switches between Rec709 and 2020. Eventually I'll switch to a Pi or something reading the Radiance RS232 output, but for now this works great that my family never has to think about why the colors are garish when they watch without me.


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## Kris Deering

Just wanted to chime in. I did some testing yesterday with the Sony 885ES and the Radiance Intensity Mapping. I was curious to see how it would behave after seeing some posts about peculiar results with the 5000ES. I can report there were no issues at all using the tone mapping with the 885ES. I used the SDR output to trick the projector into thinking it was getting SDR vs HDR so I wasn't overlapping tone maps (which I think is a bad idea). I did notice that if you leave HDR to AUTO in the advanced menu it made it easier for auto switching of the projector's color space (2020 vs 709). If you turn it off it still works, but you have to manually select it. I am going to an event in August that will have a Radiance and Sony 5000ES and I'm hoping I will have some time to do the same testing with that one to see if I can figure out why it doesn't work or if it does and it has just been a setup issue.


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## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> Just wanted to chime in. I did some testing yesterday with the Sony 885ES and the Radiance Intensity Mapping. I was curious to see how it would behave after seeing some posts about peculiar results with the 5000ES. I can report there were no issues at all using the tone mapping with the 885ES. I used the SDR output to trick the projector into thinking it was getting SDR vs HDR so I wasn't overlapping tone maps (which I think is a bad idea). I did notice that if you leave HDR to AUTO in the advanced menu it made it easier for auto switching of the projector's color space (2020 vs 709). If you turn it off it still works, but you have to manually select it. I am going to an event in August that will have a Radiance and Sony 5000ES and I'm hoping I will have some time to do the same testing with that one to see if I can figure out why it doesn't work or if it does and it has just been a setup issue.


Thanks for looking into this for us 5000ES owners.


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## wjchan

Kris Deering said:


> Just wanted to chime in. I did some testing yesterday with the Sony 885ES and the Radiance Intensity Mapping. I was curious to see how it would behave after seeing some posts about peculiar results with the 5000ES. I can report there were no issues at all using the tone mapping with the 885ES. I used the SDR output to trick the projector into thinking it was getting SDR vs HDR so I wasn't overlapping tone maps (which I think is a bad idea). I did notice that if you leave HDR to AUTO in the advanced menu it made it easier for auto switching of the projector's color space (2020 vs 709). If you turn it off it still works, but you have to manually select it. I am going to an event in August that will have a Radiance and Sony 5000ES and I'm hoping I will have some time to do the same testing with that one to see if I can figure out why it doesn't work or if it does and it has just been a setup issue.


I measured the peak brightness with the R.Masciola's Test Pattern using both the 5000ES internal IM and Lumagen IM and saw essentially no difference. Anything else I should check out?

--wilson


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## Kris Deering

wjchan said:


> I measured the peak brightness with the R.Masciola's Test Pattern using both the 5000ES internal IM and Lumagen IM and saw essentially no difference. Anything else I should check out?
> 
> 
> 
> --wilson




Not sure. Thrang mentioned some issues so you might want to PM him. I was gonna before the event to get specific details. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Mike_WI

*New 18GHz FW didn't allow 5.1 audio (Netflix)*

Playing around with Lumagen Radiance Pro FW for 18 GHz output.
New 18 GHz output FW didn't allow 5.1 audio (on Agents of Shield season 5) via Amazon -> Netflix.
I could get audio with stereo only.
Switch to old FW does allow 5.1 audio.
Back to old then...

Mike

*0850* - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
*0851* - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent


Mike_WI said:


> Interesting.
> I just did the old -> new 18 GHz output microcode switch.
> Things were working, but figured I should be on the latest FW.
> I did it at the end of a movie and everything appeared find after, but I haven't run through many on/off and source types to test.
> 
> Mike
> 
> EDIT: 06-18-18 watched a movie in 4K with the kids without incident, so appears to work for me with new 18 GHz microcode


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> The PiP function for 444X models is on the to-do list, but at this time it is not on the high-priority list. This could change. So I don't have a good time frame for you on PiP.


What would make it change? It seems to just keep getting bumped down the list. We used to get guesses on timeframes, since we aren't even getting that now I don't have much hope of seeing it any time soon. I've had the Radiance Pro for over 3 years...

A picture of watching the world cup on my 160" screen with side-by-side feeds came up -- in my Facebook memories from 4 years ago...sigh...


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## giomania

I don’t know if anyone is monitoring the Radiance 20XX support thread, but I could use some input from the Lumagen veterans.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...upport-thread-13.html#/topics/1489346?page=38



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## jrp

turls said:


> What would make it change? It seems to just keep getting bumped down the list. We used to get guesses on timeframes, since we aren't even getting that now I don't have much hope of seeing it any time soon. I've had the Radiance Pro for over 3 years...
> 
> A picture of watching the world cup on my 160" screen with side-by-side feeds came up -- in my Facebook memories from 4 years ago...sigh...


Sorry for the delay in PiP/PoP for the 444X. As you know we have been prioritizing HDR and other features. I know we have a few who owners want PiP/PoP, but I estimate that 99% of the Radiance Pro owners want HDR, and other features, prioritized over PiP/PoP. So it has not gotten the attention needed to get it done.

PiP/PoP is getting closer to the top of the priority list. We are working on some pipeline precision enhancements, then we plan to add some 4k enhancements, and then work on PiP/PoP. I can't be sure, but we are now hoping for an initial PiP/PoP release late Q4.


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## Wookii

jrp said:


> . . . We are working on some pipeline precision enhancements, then we plan to add some 4k enhancements . . .


I'm intrigued Jim, are you able to elaborate?


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## turls

jrp said:


> Sorry for the delay in PiP/PoP for the 444X. As you know we have been prioritizing HDR and other features. I know we have a few who owners want PiP/PoP, but I estimate that 99% of the Radiance Pro owners want HDR, and other features, prioritized over PiP/PoP. So it has not gotten the attention needed to get it done.
> 
> PiP/PoP is getting closer to the top of the priority list. We are working on some pipeline precision enhancements, then we plan to add some 4k enhancements, and then work on PiP/PoP. I can't be sure, but we are now hoping for an initial PiP/PoP release late Q4.


More of my two cents on this...I've said all along that I get that some features get priority over others (although I seriously doubt the 99% number, just from the users that speak up in this forum), but as I've said before, it goes back to which is the moving target. I got some pushback when I called HDR a moving target previously, but it has proven to be just that, in more ways than I previously envisioned. For example, if I turn on the HDR / HLG, stuff looks bad for me on my Sony 1100ES. How to get it to not look bad? Understand more than I know about advanced calibration techniques and / or buy ChromaPure or pay a calibrator. Paying a top calibrator for one calibration, on beta hardware, for a beta HDR implementation, costs more than ChromaPure. So I might buy ChromaPure with the faith that it will be product that is future proof until this stuff isn't beta, but I'm sure not going to pay a calibrator at this point.

So for now, I'm forcing all my sources to not transmit HDR / HLG, because it doesn't look good. That's what matters to me, as a 7 year Radiance user.


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## bobof

turls said:


> More of my two cents on this...I've said all along that I get that some features get priority over others (although I seriously doubt the 99% number, just from the users that speak up in this forum), but as I've said before, it goes back to which is the moving target. I got some pushback when I called HDR a moving target previously, but it has proven to be just that, in more ways than I previously envisioned. For example, if I turn on the HDR / HLG, stuff looks bad for me on my Sony 1100ES. How to get it to not look bad? Understand more than I know about advanced calibration techniques and / or buy ChromaPure or pay a calibrator. Paying a top calibrator for one calibration, on beta hardware, for a beta HDR implementation, costs more than ChromaPure. So I might buy ChromaPure with the faith that it will be product that is future proof until this stuff isn't beta, but I'm sure not going to pay a calibrator at this point.
> 
> So for now, I'm forcing all my sources to not transmit HDR / HLG, because it doesn't look good. That's what matters to me, as a 7 year Radiance user.


I find your comment mildly bemusing and don't really understand it... It sounds like at the moment you're not using probably some of the best features in the Radiance units for the sake of the cost of a calibration - and I don't get it? I don't know about US calibration costs, but the gear your using (the PJ + Lumagen) must run you to well over $30K? Please forgive me if there is something obvious I'm missing, but it sounds almost like you don't fully get the 3DLUT aspect.

The right calibrator using the right tool (ie Lightspace) would be able to profile your projector - which should be good for ages due to the laser source - and generate the corrected SDR709 / HDR2020 / SDR2020 as required LUTS. Nothing is going to change these as they are just "transfer functions" mapping your projector display response to the relevant standards. The rest of it (playing with which particular combination of HDR mapping settings you prefer) you can carry on with, but your display would be correctly mapped in all cases. Using Lightspace and keeping hold of the profile data would allow another future different LUT to be uploaded, but really you should only need the "standard" LUTs if you plan on using intensity mapping and/or player based HDR conversion.

For what it is worth I never thought very much of Chromapure's results with the Lumagen units I used it on previously - greyscale would always end up in need of too much adjustment for my liking. Lightspace is a much better option.

Bear in mind if you are considering DIY calibration as you have a laser light source you probably need gear that is going to be miles outside of what you want to spend if calibration costs make you sweat. Really you need a 5nm or better spectro for profiling at least (>$5K) and preferably a nice colorimeter to go with it (another $5k).


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> I'm intrigued Jim, are you able to elaborate?


The front end of the pipeline (scaling) has been 10-bits, and the back end (calibration) pipeline has always been 12+ bits for Radiance, and Radiance Pro, products. Since HDR increased the data size to 10-bits we have been increasing parts of the Radiance Pro front end pipeline to 12+ bits for a few tough corner cases we have found. We think we have the tough HDR cases addressed already but we still want to increase the entire pipeline to 12+ bits for the Radiance Pro and are working on this now.

The enhancements for 4k (and all input resolutions) will be "edge" and/or similar type of enhancements.


----------



## turls

bobof said:


> I find your comment mildly bemusing and don't really understand it... It sounds like at the moment you're not using probably some of the best features in the Radiance units for the sake of the cost of a calibration - and I don't get it? I don't know about US calibration costs, but the gear your using (the PJ + Lumagen) must run you to well over $30K? Please forgive me if there is something obvious I'm missing, but it sounds almost like you don't fully get the 3DLUT aspect.
> 
> The right calibrator using the right tool (ie Lightspace) would be able to profile your projector - which should be good for ages due to the laser source - and generate the corrected SDR709 / HDR2020 / SDR2020 as required LUTS. Nothing is going to change these as they are just "transfer functions" mapping your projector display response to the relevant standards. The rest of it (playing with which particular combination of HDR mapping settings you prefer) you can carry on with, but your display would be correctly mapped in all cases. Using Lightspace and keeping hold of the profile data would allow another future different LUT to be uploaded, but really you should only need the "standard" LUTs if you plan on using intensity mapping and/or player based HDR conversion.
> 
> For what it is worth I never thought very much of Chromapure's results with the Lumagen units I used it on previously - greyscale would always end up in need of too much adjustment for my liking. Lightspace is a much better option.


Well, that's part of my lack of understanding I'll concede if it were true, but I have a 1100ES that is a bulb, not a laser, and I have documented gamma shift (Sony SXRD defect) from previous calibrations. So I'm not sure I fall into the category of one and done on the calibration. It's also not native HDR, so not necessarily the primary target of the ongoing enhancements ("moving target"). 

But good to know on Chromapure, I thought that was my longterm solution considering my dynamic environment, but maybe not.


----------



## jrp

turls said:


> More of my two cents on this...I've said all along that I get that some features get priority over others (although I seriously doubt the 99% number, just from the users that speak up in this forum), but as I've said before, it goes back to which is the moving target. I got some pushback when I called HDR a moving target previously, but it has proven to be just that, in more ways than I previously envisioned. For example, if I turn on the HDR / HLG, stuff looks bad for me on my Sony 1100ES. How to get it to not look bad? Understand more than I know about advanced calibration techniques and / or buy ChromaPure or pay a calibrator. Paying a top calibrator for one calibration, on beta hardware, for a beta HDR implementation, costs more than ChromaPure. So I might buy ChromaPure with the faith that it will be product that is future proof until this stuff isn't beta, but I'm sure not going to pay a calibrator at this point.
> 
> So for now, I'm forcing all my sources to not transmit HDR / HLG, because it doesn't look good. That's what matters to me, as a 7 year Radiance user.


Of course the 99% wanting other features prioritized is a guesstimate. However, since 2/3 (or more) of all our sales for the Radiance Pro are the 424X series, which will never have PiP/PoP, I put all those customers into my estimate in the "other feature priority" category. Then based on calls and emails I get, I can say that PiP/PoP requests have been virtually (but not completely) non-existent, but inquiries for other features are common. I have had a couple people asking about PiP/PoP, but even then when asked about priority the person typically (but not always) agrees it's "other features" that should be the priority (which is what my 99% is based on rather than just "inquiries" as seen on this forum). So while not precise I think my 99% is pretty close, and even if it is off a bit the "other features priority" is the overwhelming choice.

This is not to set aside the desire some have for PiP/PoP, and I realize that we still need to get PiP/PoP into the Radiance Pro software. So we will try to have an initial PiP/PoP release in Q4.

==== 

If you anyone is not able to get the HDR Mapping looking good, please give us a call (USA 503-574-2211 [EDIT] Option 2), or email Lumagen support, and we can help you though the setup.


----------



## bobof

turls said:


> Well, that's part of my lack of understanding I'll concede if it were true, but I have a 1100ES that is a bulb, not a laser, and I have documented gamma shift (Sony SXRD defect) from previous calibrations. So I'm not sure I fall into the category of one and done on the calibration. It's also not native HDR, so not necessarily the primary target of the ongoing enhancements ("moving target").
> 
> But good to know on Chromapure, I thought that was my longterm solution considering my dynamic environment, but maybe not.


I couldn't believe on seeing the list price for that beast that it wasn't laser, sorry my bad!
Even with a lamp though the base 3DLUT you would use wouldn't really change that much over time - if it is changing that much you have bigger problems.
One good reason not to be calibrating now would be if you were close to lamp replacement when you would have an impending large step-change. That case withstanding you'd at least be starting now from a corrected position with the display doing it's own thing if its performance is drifting.

I don't think the enhancements discussed are particularly targeted at HDR projectors per se. Most of the recent HDR developments in the Radiance are for the case where you're taking HDR in and processing in the Radiance, perhaps (often?) outputting SDR, which is what you would be doing if that Sony can't take an HDR input.

Anyway it sounds like your case is a little complicated by your history with the Sony. I just know it would kill me to not be using something like the Pro to get it as good as it can be. 
cheers


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> 2/3 (or more) of all our sales for the Radiance Pro are the 424X series, which will never have PiP/PoP.


Is routing of inputs into the FPGA a bit different on the 44xx units then, or a commercial decision? 
When I was swapping an 18G card into my 4242 the other day and looking at how the various chips were laid out I could see it looks like on the 424x that twin 18G PIP (even from different 18G in cards) could never happen as it appears there is only 18G of input capability to the FPGA in total (switched to the input cards via the multiplexer on the mainboard). Do the 444x units have a different arrangement? Would they support dual 18G PIP from two different 18G in cards when implemented?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bobof said:


> Is routing of inputs into the FPGA a bit different on the 44xx units then, or a commercial decision?
> When I was swapping an 18G card into my 4242 the other day and looking at how the various chips were laid out I could see it looks like on the 424x that twin 18G PIP (even from different 18G in cards) could never happen as it appears there is only 18G of input capability to the FPGA in total (switched to the input cards via the multiplexer on the mainboard). Do the 444x units have a different arrangement? Would they support dual 18G PIP from two different 18G in cards when implemented?



yes the hardware architecture pipeline in the 444x units is not the same as the 424x units. Video performance is the same.


I can also say that i have used LightSpace to profile Lamped projectors for some Pro owners (who live several hundred miles from me or even off the mainland of UK and as IM has been steadily implemented and improved i've updated the clients config remotely. In some cases i've even redone the LUT's as LightSpace has had it's own LUT creation algorithms improved.


----------



## bobof

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes the hardware architecture pipeline in the 444x units is not the same as the 424x units. Video performance is the same.
> 
> 
> I can also say that i have used LightSpace to profile Lamped projectors for some Pro owners (who live several hundred miles from me or even off the mainland of UK and as IM has been steadily implemented and improved i've updated the clients config remotely. In some cases i've even redone the LUT's as LightSpace has had it's own LUT creation algorithms improved.


Neat  How do you do the remote LUT update? Do you upload the LUT to a local Lumagen running a backup of the target config, back it up again, then use the backup / restore tool at the customer site to restore the new config with the new LUT in it? Or is there some other way using Lightspace over Vpn?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> The front end of the pipeline (scaling) has been 10-bits, and the back end (calibration) pipeline has always been 12+ bits for Radiance, and Radiance Pro, products. Since HDR increased the data size to 10-bits we have been increasing parts of the Radiance Pro front end pipeline to 12+ bits for a few tough corner cases we have found. We think we have the tough HDR cases addressed already but we still want to increase the entire pipeline to 12+ bits for the Radiance Pro and are working on this now.
> 
> The enhancements for 4k (and all input resolutions) will be "edge" and/or similar type of enhancements.


Jim, 

I have had a Radiance 2041 since 2014, and just recently acquired a 4K LG OLED 55B7A, so now am looking at (FINALLY) using the 4K/30 output option for scaling my SDR sources. I am wondering if the Radiance performs better sending out 4K/24/30, 4:4:4, 10-bit -OR- 4K/24/30, 4:2:2, 12-bit? If the Lumagen performs the same with 10 or 12-bit, then I guess I would just choose the one the TV can handle the best.

All my source devices (details below) are in an equipment rack in the basement, and the LG OLED is in the family room, connected by a 45-foot HDMI cable (details below) to an AVR. 

Source Devices
AppleTV 4K
Mede8er X10003D
OPPO UDP-203
Nvidia Shield TV Pro
Tivo Roamio Pro DVR

Television
LG OLED 55B7A

AVR - Coming Soon
2018 Denon X3500H (4K/60 capable)

HDMI Cable Details
BJC Series-1 with 23.5 AWG Belden Bonded-Pair
Standard Speed, 10.2 Gbps, 10.2 Gbps
Category 1
74.5MHz

Possibilities with this cable:
4K/24/30, 4:2:2, 12-bit, 8.9 Gbps (Any benefit, since the Radiance is limited to 10-bit input processing?)
4K/24/30, 4:4:4, 8-bit, 8.9 Gbps
4K/24/30, 4:4:4, 10-bit, 11.1 Gbps (only if it can go higher than rated...fingers crossed)

Thanks for any input.

Mark


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> Jim,
> 
> I have had a Radiance 2041 since 2014, and just recently acquired a 4K LG OLED 55B7A, so now am looking at (FINALLY) using the 4K/30 output option for scaling my SDR sources. I am wondering if the Radiance performs better sending out 4K/24/30, 4:4:4, 10-bit -OR- 4K/24/30, 4:2:2, 12-bit? If the Lumagen performs the same with 10 or 12-bit, then I guess I would just choose the one the TV can handle the best.
> ... Mark


 If you have a 2041, it's max output rate is 4k30 as you note. I recommend against outputting any 60 Hertz video soures at 30 Hertz (or 50 Hertz sources at 25). The issue is one of motion judder. So I would set the 2041 to output 4k24 4:2:2 for 24 Hertz movie sources and 1080p60 for video sources (or 4k25 and 1080p50 in 50 Hertz countries).

The judder at 30 Hertz is a noticeable artifact and so better to leave the 2041 output at 1080p for video sources. For the 214X and Pro you would of course select 4k60 for video source, but not 4k30f ro the 204X units.


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> If you have a 2041, it's max output rate is 4k30 as you note. I recommend against outputting any 60 Hertz video soures at 30 Hertz (or 50 Hertz sources at 25). The issue is one of motion judder. So I would set the 2041 to output 4k24 4:2:2 for 24 Hertz movie sources and 1080p60 for video sources (or 4k25 and 1080p50 in 50 Hertz countries).
> 
> 
> 
> The judder at 30 Hertz is a noticeable artifact and so better to leave the 2041 output at 1080p for video sources. For the 214X and Pro you would of course select 4k60 for video source, but not 4k30f ro the 204X units.



Thanks for the reply, Jim. I am a bit sad, as it would seem the 2041 was a wasted upgrade, as I don’t watch movies on the Family Room TV. I watch them in the theater, and still have a 1080p projector in there.

I guess I should have waited.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bobof said:


> Neat  How do you do the remote LUT update? Do you upload the LUT to a local Lumagen running a backup of the target config, back it up again, then use the backup / restore tool at the customer site to restore the new config with the new LUT in it? Or is there some other way using Lightspace over Vpn?
> 
> Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk





Yes ik put the clients config on one of my own units and then upload the new LUT and send it back to customer.


----------



## SJHT

A couple of members were going to do a more detailed Lightspace guide for the Lumagen Pro. Did I miss that? Fine if not going to happen but just wondered. Thanks. SJ


----------



## MJV29

Yeah i would love to have a guide on how to calibrate with Lightspace and the Radiance Pro. Just a step by step process, I know the procedure might change over time but if I had some kind of understanding it would help big time. Would just like to be able to do a calibration on my own and it be correct and not me wondering if what I am doing is right or not. Lol


----------



## LJG

Multi view/window processor question, is there any advantage to running say a RGB Superview 4K multi view processor with HD sources directly to projector and outputting 4K from RGB Superview to projector vs using say a Crestron DVPHD multi view processor with HD sources and outputting HD to Lumagen Radiance and have Radiance output 4K to projector. 

So to sum up any advantage to purchasing a RGB Superview 4K vs an Crestron DVPHD very big price difference.


----------



## GerryWaz

Any impartial plus/minus comparisons out there between LightSpace, Calman, and Chromapure for calibating a Radiance Pro?


----------



## GerryWaz

Also, with 8K sets "supposedly" around the corner ( https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1530524983 ), what does that mean for the future of separate video processors?


----------



## Wookii

GerryWaz said:


> Also, with 8K sets "supposedly" around the corner ( https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1530524983 ), what does that mean for the future of separate video processors?


It'll probably mean that Jim will eventually be forced to divert some resource to an 8K model at some point unfortunately.

I was a big advocate of 4K, I thought it would bring a significant tangible benefit to projector owners in particular. The resulting improvement, now that we have some well mastered 4K content with a 4K DI, is certainly visible, but not nearly as much as I was anticipating when compared to 1080p content of a similar quality. Certainly the difference between 1080p and 4K is incremental at best, and nowhere near the difference between SD and 1080p.

I can only speculate then, that the move from 4K to 8K will likely be almost imperceivable on all but the very largest projector screen (think 14' wide and beyond).

Factor in that you then have to wait for a) display manufacturers to start offering 8K projection (many can't even offer true 4K yet outside of their flagships), and b) content producers filming and mastering in 8K (many have only just reached the point of using a 4K DI). Thats going to take a long time to happen. 

Finally you have appreciate that upscaling and output resolution are only a very small part of what a video processor like the Lumagen Pro brings to the table, so I don't think video processor manufacturers like Lumagen need to worry about 8K anytime soon.


----------



## Mike_WI

Wookii said:


> It'll probably mean that Jim will eventually be forced to divert some resource to an 8K model at some point unfortunately.
> 
> I was a big advocate of 4K, I thought it would bring a significant tangible benefit to projector owners in particular. The resulting improvement, now that we have some well mastered 4K content with a 4K DI, is certainly visible, but not nearly as much as I was anticipating when compared to 1080p content of a similar quality. Certainly the difference between 1080p and 4K is incremental at best, and nowhere near the difference between SD and 1080p.
> 
> I can only speculate then, that the move from 4K to 8K will likely be almost imperceivable on all but the very largest projector screen (think 14' wide and beyond).
> 
> Factor in that you then have to wait for a) display manufacturers to start offering 8K projection (many can't even offer true 4K yet outside of their flagships), and b) content producers filming and mastering in 8K (many have only just reached the point of using a 4K DI). Thats going to take a long time to happen.
> 
> Finally you have appreciate that upscaling and output resolution are only a very small part of what a video processor like the Lumagen Pro brings to the table, so I don't think video processor manufacturers like Lumagen need to worry about 8K anytime soon.


...and you need enough people that want/need an aftermarket video processor.

HDR is still a mess. 
HDMI is still a mess.

Increasing resolution seems easier, but I'm not sure how 8K transmissions over HDMI will work. We have enough problems with 4K.

I would presume that a completely new Lumagen unit would be needed with higher CPU/GPU capability.
Might be interesting to speculate about what that would look like and features to include.


Mike


----------



## uderman

jrp said:


> Wookii said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm intrigued Jim, are you able to elaborate?
> 
> 
> 
> The front end of the pipeline (scaling) has been 10-bits, and the back end (calibration) pipeline has always been 12+ bits for Radiance, and Radiance Pro, products. Since HDR increased the data size to 10-bits we have been increasing parts of the Radiance Pro front end pipeline to 12+ bits for a few tough corner cases we have found. We think we have the tough HDR cases addressed already but we still want to increase the entire pipeline to 12+ bits for the Radiance Pro and are working on this now.
> 
> The enhancements for 4k (and all input resolutions) will be "edge" and/or similar type of enhancements.
Click to expand...


For us who are using the Radiance Pro with another Radiance(older) attached for legacy sources and more inputs, should we disable the scaling on the older units once the Pro gets 12+ bits scaling? Given these are all 8 bit sources however my Radiance 2144 outputs 12 bits 4:2:2 into my 4449.

On the enhancements, any chance we are getting video noise reduction? There is already Darbee for edge enhancements, I don’t see the point of getting more edge enhancements


----------



## uderman

I am pretty sure Jim mentioned in the past that the Radiance Pro is capable of upscaling to 8K. Most likely limited to 4K inputs but 8K output with new hdmi boards and new 8K scaling algorithm in the fpga. 

8K content will be surely scarse for many years


----------



## Mike_WI

uderman said:


> I am pretty sure Jim mentioned in the past that the Radiance Pro is capable of upscaling to 8K. Most likely limited to 4K inputs but 8K output with new hdmi boards and new 8K scaling algorithm in the fpga.
> 
> 8K content will be surely scarse for many years


Wow.
That would be very interesting.

Mike


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> It'll probably mean that Jim will eventually be forced to divert some resource to an 8K model at some point unfortunately.
> 
> I was a big advocate of 4K, I thought it would bring a significant tangible benefit to projector owners in particular. The resulting improvement, now that we have some well mastered 4K content with a 4K DI, is certainly visible, but not nearly as much as I was anticipating when compared to 1080p content of a similar quality. Certainly the difference between 1080p and 4K is incremental at best, and nowhere near the difference between SD and 1080p.


I was surprised how obviously 4K made blu-ray look blurry and undersaturated in comparison... I don't expect 8k to be a similar jump, due to visual acuity, but that remains to be seen...


----------



## Mike_WI

Mark_H said:


> I was surprised how obviously 4K made blu-ray look blurry and undersaturated in comparison... I don't expect 8k to be a similar jump, due to visual acuity, but that remains to be seen...


I do wonder if you can get a 4K or 8K display at projector sizes with better HDR, then how long will projectors last.
At the size of (especially) >70-80" you would need some sort of modularity or bend-ability to be practical.

Mike


----------



## Mark_H

Mike_WI said:


> I do wonder if you can get a 4K or 8K display at projector sizes with better HDR, then how long will projectors last.
> At the size of (especially) >70-80" you would need some sort of modularity or bend-ability to be practical.
> 
> Mike


Undoubtedly the future. Technology already starting to appear... 

https://movieweb.com/samsung-3d-led-movie-theater-screen/


----------



## Mike_WI

Mark_H said:


> Undoubtedly the future. Technology already starting to appear...
> 
> https://movieweb.com/samsung-3d-led-movie-theater-screen/


Now I suspect THAT size might benefit from 8K (vs 4K):


> ...33.8 feet wide and 17.7 feet high, with nearly 9 million pixels, meaning this thing comes with very sharp 4K resolution


----------



## Roland Janus

There hasn't been a fw update for almost 2 months now.
What's up next?


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062518*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 062518*
Fix for pillarbox option with NLS settings. 
Improvement to power-on input selection and option to delay input selection (only at power on) by 3 seconds in order to get correct color information from some sources (failing case was a DirectTV box). 
The delay setting is in the menu under *Other: OnOff Setup: Input Select* . 
Fix for letterbox zoom off/on cases with 1.85,2.2,2.35 input aspects. 
Added option to enable sending HDR output flag to display even when using SDR colorspace. 
This new option is called *HDR Flag* and in the menu under *Output: CMS's: Colorspace* . 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


*EDIT:*
(updated version)

*Beta 062518*
Fix for pillarbox option with NLS settings. 
Improvement to power-on input selection and option to delay input selection (only at power on) by 3 seconds in order to get correct color information from some sources (failing case was a DirectTV box). 
The delay setting is in the menu under *Other: OnOff Setup: Input Select *. 
Fix for letterbox zoom off/on cases with 1.85,2.2,2.35 input aspects. Added option to enable sending HDR output flag to display even when using SDR colorspace. 
This new option is called *HDR Flag* and in the menu under *Output: CMS's: Colorspace* . 
Added "menu 0966" command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off. 
When leterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## LJG

What is the new option called HDR Flag used for?


----------



## Mike_WI

*menu 0966*



Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 062518*
> Fix for pillarbox option with NLS settings.
> Improvement to power-on input selection and option to delay input selection (only at power on) by 3 seconds in order to get correct color information from some sources (failing case was a DirectTV box).
> The delay setting is in the menu under *Other: OnOff Setup: Input Select* .
> Fix for letterbox zoom off/on cases with 1.85,2.2,2.35 input aspects.
> Added option to enable sending HDR output flag to display even when using SDR colorspace.
> This new option is called *HDR Flag* and in the menu under *Output: CMS's: Colorspace* .
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware
> 
> EDIT:
> (updated version)
> 
> *Beta 062518*
> Fix for pillarbox option with NLS settings.
> Improvement to power-on input selection and option to delay input selection (only at power on) by 3 seconds in order to get correct color information from some sources (failing case was a DirectTV box).
> The delay setting is in the menu under *Other: OnOff Setup: Input Select *.
> Fix for letterbox zoom off/on cases with 1.85,2.2,2.35 input aspects. Added option to enable sending HDR output flag to display even when using SDR colorspace.
> This new option is called *HDR Flag* and in the menu under *Output: CMS's: Colorspace* .
> Added "menu 0966" command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off.
> When leterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


 @jrp

I suspect I need to play with this menu 0966 toggle.
With old prior FW 052518 I could hit "2.35" button and get that.
With 062518 the "2.35" button needs zoom x2 to fill screen.


Mike


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
Press *Menu* then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler" 
Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0910 - service mode
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0966 - command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off
When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not
0997 - save to backup config location
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)


Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

Edits based on posts by: jrp, colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, bobof, et alia


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The new HDR flag option is to allow owners of JVC projectors to have the Lumagen force the projector in to another preset automatically. RS4500/Z1 and latest RS and X series JVC's will go to their HDR preset when they see an HDR flag. The HDR preset can be set to not use JVC HDR colourspaces or EOTF's though. When an SDR signal is sent to these projectors they will return back to their last used SDR preset. So for folk who do not have control systems this setting can just make the system simpler to operate.


----------



## bobof

Really looking forward to trying out the new HDR flag setting with my JVC X7900 - should allow me to have completely automated optimal settings for HDR and SDR. 
Not sure what those settings will be yet though (!) - had some thought-provoking discussions with Jim about whether I'm better off setting my projector up for maximum contrast but with more limited light output for HDR, or raising the black slightly, slighly less on / off contrast but higher peak white than SDR.

On my JVC for SDR at 16ftL I would usually set low lamp and iris to -11 which yields great on/off contrast. Question is whether for HDR I:
1) leave iris as is, keep great on/off contrast and use intensity mapping to map the HDR image into the SDR luminance range
2) open the iris more (perhaps fully) to get more light for peaks onto the screen - this pretty much doubles from -11 to 0. This does raise black a little though, and the on/off contrast is further reduced due to iris being more open. So my dynamic range is decreased! (not exactly High Dynamic Range if it is lower than SDR lol)
3) leave iris as-is and get a bit of a brightness bump from high lamp (undesireable due to noise). Same on/off contrast as SDR, with black and white level raised equally.

Room is fully light controlled with black fabric ceiling / walls etc.

As Jim says, the eye very quickly adjusts to peak level, so perhaps keeping the sequential contrast is the most important factor for HDR. I agree with the logic, though part of me says if I've ended up at the same peak output I can stop buying HDR content now and just buy SDR (maybe that is a legitimate and not facetious comment for projection "HDR"). 
Thoughts folks?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Gordon Fraser said:


> The new HDR flag option is to allow owners of JVC projectors to have the Lumagen force the projector in to another preset automatically. RS4500/Z1 and latest RS and X series JVC's will go to their HDR preset when they see an HDR flag. The HDR preset can be set to not use JVC HDR colourspaces or EOTF's though. When an SDR signal is sent to these projectors they will return back to their last used SDR preset. So for folk who do not have control systems this setting can just make the system simpler to operate.


So this feature, the new HDR flag option, has no applicability to Sony projectors (using Radiance Pro for placing HDR in 2020SDR container)?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> So this feature, the new HDR flag option, has no applicability to Sony projectors (using Radiance Pro for placing HDR in 2020SDR container)?





No it just sends the HDR flag so that any display that auto switches to a different preset for HDR content. I asked Jim to impliment it specifically for JVC owners. Some where using other solutions to recognise HDR flag on source to send serial commands to make their projectors auto switch presets.


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> So this feature, the new HDR flag option, has no applicability to Sony projectors (using Radiance Pro for placing HDR in 2020SDR container)?


No...looks like poo (checked just to see)


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> The new HDR flag option is to allow owners of JVC projectors to have the Lumagen force the projector in to another preset automatically. RS4500/Z1 and latest RS and X series JVC's will go to their HDR preset when they see an HDR flag. The HDR preset can be set to not use JVC HDR colourspaces or EOTF's though. When an SDR signal is sent to these projectors they will return back to their last used SDR preset. So for folk who do not have control systems this setting can just make the system simpler to operate.


Very cool, nicely done. I will appreciate this!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

With the latest 6-25-2018 firmware update, my Radiance Pro aspect ratios set for my 2.40 screen, the 1.85A is stretched vertically and horizontally to fit as though I had the same screen width but the higher 16:9 screen (as opposed to my 2.40 screen) height. 16:9 and 2:40 Radiance Pro buttons work correctly. I reverted to 5-25-2018 firmware and all is ok.


----------



## Mike_WI

*menu 0966*



Steve Bruzonsky said:


> With the latest 6-25-2018 firmware update, my Radiance Pro aspect ratios set for my 2.40 screen, the 1.85A is stretched vertically and horizontally to fit as though I had the same screen width but the higher 16:9 screen (as opposed to my 2.40 screen) height. 16:9 and 2:40 Radiance Pro buttons work correctly. I reverted to 5-25-2018 firmware and all is ok.


I'm not tracking your post completely, but think I have the same issue.
I haven't tried this --> Added "*menu 0966*" command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off. When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not.

I may try it tonight if time.
However, likely need a new FW to make work from default.
I often wait a day or longer to FW update, but jumped on this one fast.

Mike


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike_WI said:


> I'm not tracking your post completely, but think I have the same issue.
> I haven't tried this --> Added "*menu 0966*" command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off. When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not.
> 
> I may try it tonight if time.
> However, likely need a new FW to make work from default.
> I often wait a day or longer to FW update, but jumped on this one fast.
> 
> Mike


I didn't engage the auto letterbox zoom. And the Radiance Pro's 16:9 and 2:40 buttons worked correctly without any letterbox zoom. Sounds like the letterbox zoom is auto engaged for the 1.85A/1.85 aspect ratios.

Q: If one engaged the auto letterbox zoom, how do you disengage it, what's the menu #### code?


----------



## Mike_WI

*menu 0966*



Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I didn't engage the auto letterbox zoom. And the Radiance Pro's 16:9 and 2:40 buttons worked correctly without any letterbox zoom. Sounds like the letterbox zoom is auto engaged for the 1.85A/1.85 aspect ratios.
> 
> Q: If one engaged the auto letterbox zoom, how do you disengage it, what's the menu #### code?


Per this:
(bold added)
Added "menu 0966" command to globally *set letterbox zoom on or off*. 
When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not.


Sounds like it toggles it on/off.


Mike


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062618*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 062618*
Fixup of 1.85 input aspect ratio incorrectly zooming in due to some changes in 062518 update. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 062618*
> Fixup of 1.85 input aspect ratio incorrectly zooming in due to some changes in 062518 update.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Told ya. I knew Jim P & gang would fix this quick! Thanks.


----------



## Mike_WI

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Told ya. I knew Jim P & gang would fix this quick! Thanks.


I had no doubt.
I did a quick FW update last night before people came over to watch a movie (usually a no-no in case anything happens) and everything working fine.

Mike


----------



## marion34

when a new upgrade HDR 
with Madvr . the old version desaturation is good but we wait for better HDR/sdr .
please


----------



## mskreis

As a JVC owner and a user of SDR IM, I really appreciate the new HDR flag option. Hard to beat auto switching to appropriate modes based on input. 

Thank you Jim!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

There is NO product I own that adds improvements to help customers as Lumagen. Amen.


----------



## Eventidal

Anyone else having problems with the latest firmware upgrade (062618) regarding letterbox zoom with a fixed anamorphic lense installation? 
Regardless of zoom mode picture does not fill a 21:9 screen correctly anymore. Had to downgrade to make it work again.


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> There is NO product I own that adds improvements to help customers as Lumagen. Amen.





mskreis said:


> As a JVC owner and a user of SDR IM, I really appreciate the new HDR flag option. Hard to beat auto switching to appropriate modes based on input.


Just wanted to add my voice of thanks to this; I haven't decided yet which way to go (whether I'll flick in the WCG filter and open the aperture fully, or have HDR and SDR at same aperture and colourspace), but now I have the choice; the feature appears to work great and I think is really useful. 

Plus it just exposed my broken iris mechanism... better to find these things out sooner rather than later! Damn JVC quality control...


----------



## sjschaff

Having created an appropriate CMS1 for sources that deliver UHD (3840x2160) content, I was wondering if the Lumagen could automatically alert my JVC RS500 to change it's iris from -9 to 0 and back again when the CMS changes. Is that possible?


----------



## bobof

sjschaff said:


> Having created an appropriate CMS1 for sources that deliver UHD (3840x2160) content, I was wondering if the Lumagen could automatically alert my JVC RS500 to change it's iris from -9 to 0 and back again when the CMS changes. Is that possible?


Does that model change to HDR mode if it receives an HDR signal? If so you can change the iris setting in the HDR mode, and use the new feature in the latest firmware to switch to HDR mode even if you're not sending HDR (you just need to set the gamma and colourspace to something appropriate in the HDR mode) Works great on my new X7900, but I don't know if older models can switch automatically on receiving the HDR flag.


> Added option to enable sending HDR output flag to display even when using SDR colorspace.
> This new option is called HDR Flag and in the menu under Output: CMS's: Colorspace .


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> No it just sends the HDR flag so that any display that auto switches to a different preset for HDR content. I asked Jim to impliment it specifically for JVC owners. Some where using other solutions to recognise HDR flag on source to send serial commands to make their projectors auto switch presets.


This didn't work out for me in the way that I had hoped. When my RS4500 sees the HDR flag it insists on going to the HDR preset when I need it to go to a user preset (I still use the HDR preset in many instances so I don't want to change its settings). 

I was hoping the projector would simply remember my preferred mode for the HDR flag and not insist on its dedicated one.

Oh well, no biggie.


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> This didn't work out for me in the way that I had hoped. When my RS4500 sees the HDR flag it insists on going to the HDR preset when I need it to go to a user preset (I still use the HDR preset in many instances so I don't want to change its settings).
> 
> I was hoping the projector would simply remember my preferred mode for the HDR flag and not insist on its dedicated one.
> 
> Oh well, no biggie.


Why not just use the HDR mode for Lumagen auto HDR, and use one of the User modes for your other requirements? Harmony remote at least has discrete IR codes for the User modes (or it did on the x30, not tried it on X7900 yet).

Or do you have some other devices connected direct to display without the Lumagen in circuit (and so need the HDR mode to be a "proper" HDR mode?


----------



## sjschaff

bobof said:


> Does that model change to HDR mode if it receives an HDR signal? If so you can change the iris setting in the HDR mode, and use the new feature in the latest firmware to switch to HDR mode even if you're not sending HDR (you just need to set the gamma and colourspace to something appropriate in the HDR mode) Works great on my new X7900, but I don't know if older models can switch automatically on receiving the HDR flag.



When I switch to my Panasonic UB900 and put in a 4K/UHD disc the Lumagen Pro detects the source correctly and switches to CMS1 from normal CMS0. Followed lots of instructions from JP on "calibrating" CMS1 for the JVC for this new HDR. I don't believe I'm actually changing to what you call "HDR mode". How can I tell?



I wasn't aware that the Lumagen could actually switch/change the iris in the JVC 500. What specific setting/settings do I change to get this to work?


----------



## Ian_Currie

bobof said:


> Why not just use the HDR mode for Lumagen auto HDR, and use one of the User modes for your other requirements? Harmony remote at least has discrete IR codes for the User modes (or it did on the x30, not tried it on X7900 yet).
> 
> Or do you have some other devices connected direct to display without the Lumagen in circuit (and so need the HDR mode to be a "proper" HDR mode?


The HDR mode has been calibrated and therefore cannot be moved to another user memory (at least that's my understanding).

Everything goes through my Lumagen, but I prefer to bypass the Lumagen's HDR->SDR conversion for a lot of HDR material.


----------



## KarlKlammer

I also don't have a practical use for the HDR flag option with my X9500, as the JVC HDR preset doesn't allow me to select the matching color profile to my BT.2020 conversion LUT on CMS1.


----------



## KarlKlammer

sjschaff said:


> I wasn't aware that the Lumagen could actually switch/change the iris in the JVC 500. What specific setting/settings do I change to get this to work?



The RS500 doesn't have a specific HDR preset. When it receives an HDR flag, all it does is switch to Gamma D. So this option in the Radiance doesn't help you that much.


----------



## sjschaff

KarlKlammer said:


> The RS500 doesn't have a specific HDR preset. When it receives an HDR flag, all it does is switch to Gamma D. So this option in the Radiance doesn't help you that much.



Hmmm. Now I'm really confused as to the function/capability of the Lumagen Pro with the JVC 500. Seems that independent of whatever CMS is used the Lumagen does not have any means for changing the JVC's iris setting, right?


----------



## dlinsley

I have the JVC RS600 and use an HDFury Vertex to switch user modes on the JVC when Rec2020 is received instead of 709.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I also don't have a practical use for the HDR flag option with my X9500, as the JVC HDR preset doesn't allow me to select the matching color profile to my BT.2020 conversion LUT on CMS1.


Interesting - which colour profile are you using for 2020 content in that case - not the BT2020 or HDR ones it sounds like? How come? (note I'm not criticising - I'm genuinely interested in how people are setting these things up as mine isn't done yet).


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> The HDR mode has been calibrated and therefore cannot be moved to another user memory (at least that's my understanding).
> 
> Everything goes through my Lumagen, but I prefer to bypass the Lumagen's HDR->SDR conversion for a lot of HDR material.


Fair enough, I don't know which bits you could move across by hand from the menus and which bits you can't..., and I guess whether the calibration included using the JVC Autocal gear would probably also make a difference. 

It's hard to see how it could help you because it sounds like at some point you're making a manual decision to swap between Lumagen HDR and JVC HDR. Do you make the decision per input or on the fly based on how it looks?

If you use a Harmony remote you can always do what I used to do and have a macro to change memories on the Lumagen at the same time as you switch user modes on the JVC. I think that would give you a single button that you could press to go between PJ HDR and Lumagen HDR.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Interesting - which colour profile are you using for 2020 content in that case - not the BT2020 or HDR ones it sounds like? How come? (note I'm not criticising - I'm genuinely interested in how people are setting these things up as mine isn't done yet).



I'm using the Reference profile and let my LightSpace LUT do the conversion on CMS1.
A LUT based on the JVC BT.2020 profile causes problems because of the poor RGB separation.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I'm using the Reference profile and let my LightSpace LUT do the conversion on CMS1.
> A LUT based on the JVC BT.2020 profile causes problems because of the poor RGB separation.


Useful info, I haven't tried profiling the BT2020 profile yet, and that was going to be my first call as I wanted to try and use the cinema filter. Does Reference allow use of the cinema filter then?

I guess you could still use the new firmware with an HDFURY vertex to spot the HDR flag, strip it out so the JVC doesn't switch to HDR mode, and then send the serial command to the JVC to switch to your user mode. So it gets you part of the way that you couldn't do automatically before I think...

It would be really cool if you could get the Lumagen to take on the role of a mini-control system, sending out certain RS232 strings in certain situations. For example I've got a new screen with electric masks coming, would be brilliant to be able to set up the Lumagen to drive them for me. 

Anyone else here setting up Lumagens with electric masking variable ratio screens? How are you doing it?


----------



## Ian_Currie

bobof said:


> Fair enough, I don't know which bits you could move across by hand from the menus and which bits you can't..., and I guess whether the calibration included using the JVC Autocal gear would probably also make a difference.


I thought all calibration data was 100% visible in the JVC menus but I recently had Chad B out here to re-calibrate mine and he told me there was settings behind the scenes from the autocal that he did.



bobof said:


> It's hard to see how it could help you because it sounds like at some point you're making a manual decision to swap between Lumagen HDR and JVC HDR. Do you make the decision per input or on the fly based on how it looks?


Yes, I'm making a manual decision for my own viewing. I thought it might be nice to automate it for when my daughter watches a movie (where I'd have her watch HDR converted since it doesn't require high laser mode). Currently I have to set it up for her since the mode depends on what she watches.



bobof said:


> If you use a Harmony remote you can always do what I used to do and have a macro to change memories on the Lumagen at the same time as you switch user modes on the JVC. I think that would give you a single button that you could press to go between PJ HDR and Lumagen HDR.


There doesn't seem to be any way to have my JVC go to a user picture mode directly, you have to navigate the menus otherwise I would do this (as I use Harmony).


----------



## stefanop

bobof said:


> It would be really cool if you could get the Lumagen to take on the role of a mini-control system, sending out certain RS232 strings in certain situations. For example I've got a new screen with electric masks coming, would be brilliant to be able to set up the Lumagen to drive them for me.


yeessss! That would be marvelous!!!! I have to manually send the command to the screen for each movie, boring.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Useful info, I haven't tried profiling the BT2020 profile yet, and that was going to be my first call as I wanted to try and use the cinema filter. Does Reference allow use of the cinema filter then?


Yes, it uses the cinema filter. In fact I also use it for SDR since my unit does not fully reach Rec.709 in low lamp mode for the green primary without it. And by doing it this way the only difference between SDR and HDR is the iris setting for the JVC.


> I guess you could still use the new firmware with an HDFURY vertex to spot the HDR flag, strip it out so the JVC doesn't switch to HDR mode, and then send the serial command to the JVC to switch to your user mode. So it gets you part of the way that you couldn't do automatically before I think...


I sold my Vertex because it caused too many HDMI lockups on my JVC.



> It would be really cool if you could get the Lumagen to take on the role of a mini-control system, sending out certain RS232 strings in certain situations.


Yes, that would be nice. But with my Logitech Harmony and a small tool I wrote for controlling the JVC and Radiance via laptop and wifi, I don't have much trouble.


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> I thought all calibration data was 100% visible in the JVC menus but I recently had Chad B out here to re-calibrate mine and he told me there was settings behind the scenes from the autocal that he did.


Sounds like you need to leave HDR mode alone then.



Ian_Currie said:


> There doesn't seem to be any way to have my JVC go to a user picture mode directly, you have to navigate the menus otherwise I would do this (as I use Harmony).


JVC have lots of discrete codes which aren't on the remote; in the Harmony remote database for the previous X3 / X30 I had there were discrete buttons for USER1...5 and all the other modes. But I just checked the current 7900 Harmony database and it doesn't include anything that isn't on the original remote control.

There is a big list of old codes here:
http://support.jvc.com/consumer/support/documents/DILAremoteControlGuide.pdf
Another here:
http://support.jvc.com/consumer/support/documents/2014 D-ILA Remote Code.pdf

I'd be mighty surprised if one of these codes doesn't have the desired effect, but you'd have to get them into the Harmony. At a push you might find adding the DLA-X30 to your config might allow you to test out the IR codes which are in there - they might work. If they do work it makes it much easier to communicate to Logitech to get them to add the appropriate codes to the device you are using.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, it uses the cinema filter. In fact I also use it for SDR since my unit does not fully reach Rec.709 in low lamp mode for the green primary without it. And by doing it this way the only difference between SDR and HDR is the iris setting for the JVC.
> I sold my Vertex because it caused too many HDMI lockups on my JVC.
> 
> Yes, that would be nice. But with my Logitech Harmony and a small tool I wrote for controlling the JVC and Radiance via laptop and wifi, I don't have much trouble.


Mine also doesn't reach green in non-filter modes, so I was wondering what to do about that; was considering leaving it a little short. If reference colourspace is linear with the filter I'll use that instead. Thanks for the info! 

I've considered writing similar, probably on a little RaspberryPI or similar - but a lot of the reason I use a Lumagen is I just don't have time to hack around with stuff much these days.

For screen control I'll probably end up making macros to do manual screen setting and changing mode to match on the Lumagen. Might be nice to have an easy option to let Auto Aspect control the screen masking though. Probably not as much of a corner-case as you'd think given folk buying Lumagens might well be likely to have electric mask screens etc.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Mine also doesn't reach green in non-filter modes, so I was wondering what to do about that; was considering leaving it a little short. If reference colourspace is linear with the filter I'll use that instead. Thanks for the info!


If you measure in high lamp mode without filter, you will see, that it reaches the green primary. With chromapure and an i1 Pro 2 it is possible to measure the lamp spectrum. And between low and high lamp mode there is a visible difference.



> I've considered writing similar, probably on a little RaspberryPI or similar - but a lot of the reason I use a Lumagen is I just don't have time to hack around with stuff much these days.
> 
> For screen control I'll probably end up making macros to do manual screen setting and changing mode to match on the Lumagen. Might be nice to have an easy option to let Auto Aspect control the screen masking though. Probably not as much of a corner-case as you'd think given folk buying Lumagens might well be likely to have electric mask screens etc.


Some things for the Radiance are nearly impossible to do with macros: for instance turning HDR profiler on/off or setting an override for MaxCLL which needs some calculations and loops. And it is nicer to see info menus on a different screen.


----------



## Ian_Currie

bobof said:


> Sounds like you need to leave HDR mode alone then.
> 
> 
> JVC have lots of discrete codes which aren't on the remote; in the Harmony remote database for the previous X3 / X30 I had there were discrete buttons for USER1...5 and all the other modes. But I just checked the current 7900 Harmony database and it doesn't include anything that isn't on the original remote control.
> 
> There is a big list of old codes here:
> http://support.jvc.com/consumer/support/documents/DILAremoteControlGuide.pdf
> Another here:
> http://support.jvc.com/consumer/support/documents/2014 D-ILA Remote Code.pdf
> 
> I'd be mighty surprised if one of these codes doesn't have the desired effect, but you'd have to get them into the Harmony. At a push you might find adding the DLA-X30 to your config might allow you to test out the IR codes which are in there - they might work. If they do work it makes it much easier to communicate to Logitech to get them to add the appropriate codes to the device you are using.



Thanks. Maybe I'll try that. Logitech's Harmony system is fairly 'closed' and it's tricky getting it to do what you want. An old adage comes to mind "design a system that any fool could use and only a fool will want to use it".


----------



## bobof

What is the RGB value of the 1% bar in the pluge test pattern?


----------



## dlinsley

KarlKlammer said:


> I sold my Vertex because it caused too many HDMI lockups on my JVC.


I run my Vertex off a second output from the Radiance, but leave the output of the Vertex disconnected - it is only driving the JVC serial port. I use an unused 9G output, which works fine (downgrades to 8bpp according to the Vertex display) even when the main 18G is outputting 4k60 4:2:2 12-bit.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 062718*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 062718*
(consolidated 062518 & 062618 updates and removed alterations to letterbox input aspect behavior)
Fix for pillarbox option with NLS settings. 
Improvement to power-on input selection and option to delay input selection (only at power on) by 3 seconds in order to get correct color information from some sources (failing case was a DirectTV box). 
The delay setting is in the menu under *Other: OnOff Setup: Input Select* . 
Fix for letterbox zoom off/on cases with 1.85,2.2,2.35 input aspects. 
Added option to enable sending HDR output flag to display even when using SDR colorspace. 
This new option is called *HDR Flag* and in the menu under *Output: CMS's: Colorspace* . 
Added "menu 0966" command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SJHT

Seems to me the Lumagen Pro beta is done. Lol. Well, maybe after PIP is finally done. It really is a solid device. SJ


----------



## Dirk44

from a NONE self calibrator ,"just movie geek "user view, I would say the beta can go after: 
a well implemented dynamic HDR tone mapping algorithm based on frame-by-frame analysis made by Lumagen

P.S. an a faster acting Auto Aspect Ratio please

But thats just my opion man...the Dude would say


----------



## bobof

Dirk44 said:


> from a NONE self calibrator ,"just movie geek "user view, I would say the beta can go after:
> a well implemented dynamic HDR tone mapping algorithm based on frame-by-frame analysis made by Lumagen
> 
> P.S. an a faster acting Auto Aspect Ratio please
> 
> But thats just my opion man...the Dude would say


I think if the current features are solid it should leave beta status already. 
Otherwise it will never be out of beta.
I'm frankly surprised the beta tag is still on the releases.


----------



## Eventidal

Dynamic HDR, Sharpness, Auto Aspect and BETA is done


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> Dynamic HDR, Sharpness, Auto Aspect and BETA is done


Is auto-aspect still "touchy" or is there some other functionality it is missing?


----------



## Eventidal

It still takes quite long until it switches to the correct format/aspect and is thus very annoying sometimes. You would see black bars first and after a while it switches aspects.


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> It still takes quite long until it switches to the correct format/aspect and is thus very annoying sometimes. You would see black bars first and after a while it switches aspects.


Hrm... on the 2143 it was annoying the other way in that it was quicker but would often seem to get tripped up and make wrong decisions.

I guess I will find out soon when my masking screen goes up and I'm switching into bluray menus at 2.35:1.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

HDR intensity mapping was never a planned feature and is actually an extra over the features that were originally intended so it is , i would say, actually irrelevant as to whether it's in beta.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Gordon Fraser said:


> HDR intensity mapping was never a planned feature and is actually an extra over the features that were originally intended so it is , i would say, actually irrelevant as to whether it's in beta.


Gordon, I wouldn't go quite that far. HDR intensity mapping is perhaps the primary reason many of us have bought and are using the Radiance Pro, at least those of us with Sony laser projectors! And my understanding is that Lumagen will continue to develop and improve this feature!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Gordon, I wouldn't go quite that far. HDR intensity mapping is perhaps the primary reason many of us have bought and are using the Radiance Pro, at least those of us with Sony laser projectors! And my understanding is that Lumagen will continue to develop and improve this feature!





that is not what i am saying. I am saying that in the past Lumagen have not said a product is out of beta until the orignal pre-beta launch features have been implemented. Even in basic form. No HDR intensity mapping was ever offered as a potential feature of the product at launch. It just developed and its popularity has knocked back the implementation of other promised features. From my point of view the product has not been a "beta" product for over 18 months. I fully expect them to continue to increase the performance of all facets of the units performance


Gordon


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Gordon Fraser said:


> that is not what i am saying. I am saying that in the past Lumagen have not said a product is out of beta until the orignal pre-beta launch features have been implemented. Even in basic form. No HDR intensity mapping was ever offered as a potential feature of the product at launch. It just developed and its popularity has knocked back the implementation of other promised features. From my point of view the product has not been a "beta" product for over 18 months. I fully expect them to continue to increase the performance of all facets of the units performance
> 
> 
> Gordon


PiP and PoP were prelaunch features that so far have not been implemented. As they are still listed on the website as a future update Lumagen apparently has not given up on implementing them one day and therefore the Pro would have to stay in Beta until then.
The intensity mapping is indeed very important and it was the right decision to push back other things in order to implement IM and other HDR related features and functionality so no complaints from me that we are still in Beta.


----------



## BakeApples

Question, does the 4242 model have the auto aspect feature for movies with shifting aspect ratio, (like TDK and Dunkirk movies) so that it detects when there is a change of AR and automatically switches to fill the screen?


----------



## bobof

BakeApples said:


> Question, does the 4242 model have the auto aspect feature for movies with shifting aspect ratio, (like TDK and Dunkirk movies) so that it detects when there is a change of AR and automatically switches to fill the screen?


It does have that feature, but it isn't really suitable for movies with shifting aspect ratio as it stands.
There is a (non-configurable) delay between detection and switching (i guess to avoid false switching). This is reasonably long, and it is safe to say the lag would spoil movies like those mentioned that change format during the content.

For those titles you'd probably be better off fixing the crop to 'scope (if you have a scope screen). If you have a 16:9 screen I don't think there is much you can do to avoid it.


----------



## BakeApples

bobof said:


> It does have that feature, but it isn't really suitable for movies with shifting aspect ratio as it stands.
> There is a (non-configurable) delay between detection and switching (i guess to avoid false switching). This is reasonably long, and it is safe to say the lag would spoil movies like those mentioned that change format during the content.
> 
> For those titles you'd probably be better off fixing the crop to 'scope (if you have a scope screen). If you have a 16:9 screen I don't think there is much you can do to avoid it.


Ok, thanks for info. How long is this delay, 5, 10 seconds after shifting?
Have lumagen said anything about improving this feature anytime soon?


----------



## bobof

BakeApples said:


> Ok, thanks for info. How long is this delay, 5, 10 seconds after shifting?
> Have lumagen said anything about improving this feature anytime soon?


It's less than that but still significant. I couldn't watch it in a Nolan film (neither would I want to, director's intent and all that).
It used to be less in previous product but they did seem to false switch more than the last time I tried it on the Pro.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Can someone explain to me why they care about PiP (which I assume is picture in picture)? Maybe at the same time PoP? I'm curious...


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> It's less than that but still significant. I couldn't watch it in a Nolan film (neither would I want to, director's intent and all that).
> It used to be less in previous product but they did seem to false switch more than the last time I tried it on the Pro.


Interesting that it was implemented better in older / previous radiance models. I hope there will be an update at some point. Been waiting for a long time but Jim said it was not a priority on there to-do-list


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> *Interesting that it was implemented better in older / previous radiance models*. I hope there will be an update at some point. Been waiting for a long time but Jim said it was not a priority on there to-do-list


*
I didn't say that, it definitely was not better. * Previous models might have switched quicker, but they also got it wrong much more. 

Neither implementation in my opinion is suitable for watching movies with variable aspect - if you're sitting down to watch and enjoy the movie as if in a quality theatre. In that scenario nothing short of perfect, instant switching is really good enough - any time the "wrong" aspect is shown, then switching to another, is a time you will be pulled out of the movie and wondering what is going on with the projection system.

For me the Auto Aspect feature is great for doing bluray menus when in scope movies, or for having a setup that automatically switches for whole pieces of content (ie I start a new movie / episode, and it switches within a few moments of starting play).

For all the reasons mentioned above, plus respect for the director intent, I think that auto aspect switching for content which has been made in multiple aspects is a bad idea. Best to just crop top and bottom off the IMAX sections if you have a 2.35:1 screen, or play as it is on the disc if you have a 16:9 screen.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> *
> I didn't say that, it definitely was not better. * Previous models might have switched quicker, but they also got it wrong much more.
> 
> Neither implementation in my opinion is suitable for watching movies with variable aspect - if you're sitting down to watch and enjoy the movie as if in a quality theatre. In that scenario nothing short of perfect, instant switching is really good enough - any time the "wrong" aspect is shown, then switching to another, is a time you will be pulled out of the movie and wondering what is going on with the projection system.
> 
> For me the Auto Aspect feature is great for doing bluray menus when in scope movies, or for having a setup that automatically switches for whole pieces of content (ie I start a new movie / episode, and it switches within a few moments of starting play).
> 
> *For all the reasons mentioned above, plus respect for the director intent, I think that auto aspect switching for content which has been made in multiple aspects is a bad idea. Best to just crop top and bottom off the IMAX sections if you have a 2.35:1 screen, or play as it is on the disc if you have a 16:9 screen*.


That's what I do. Interstellar - I watch it in 2.35:1 with my Paladin DCR lens on a scope screen. Dunkirk - I watch that on my 16:9 screen, since at least 1/2 that movie is 16:9. It's all good.


----------



## SJHT

Ian_Currie said:


> Can someone explain to me why they care about PiP (which I assume is picture in picture)? Maybe at the same time PoP? I'm curious...


Play Xbox while the local football game is shown in the corner.


----------



## DenverMDM

KarlKlammer said:


> The RS500 doesn't have a specific HDR preset. When it receives an HDR flag, all it does is switch to Gamma D. So this option in the Radiance doesn't help you that much.


Is their a plan for future upgrade that will automatically switch user profiles and bypass HDR flags on the JVC like the Vertex? This would allow us to use the dynamic Iris if needed and save some brain damage on having another HDMI handshake in the chain.

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

DenverMDM said:


> Is their a plan for future upgrade that will automatically switch user profiles and bypass HDR flags on the JVC like the Vertex? This would allow us to use the dynamic Iris if needed and save some brain damage on having another HDMI handshake in the chain.
> 
> Thanks!


The Pro can already do the HDR flags bypassing I believe. I think RS232 control could do with being more generic than just JVC control though. For example, I'd like to be able to control a masking screen as well / instead; that also takes RS232 commands.

Of course this could be dealt with externally to the Pro though, with some kind of control system; watching the Pro status and sending out corresponding macros. Perhaps a Raspberry Pi with some USB serial ports. That would also give the flexibility of doing IP control instead of just RS232.

I've got a masking screen on the way, and am using a JVC, both of which are RS232 devices, so if I wanted to do control both of those "smartly" in a Pro system via RS232 it would be difficult (due to a single RS232 port). As it happens my JVC can parse the HDR flag, so I'd only need the Pro to control the masking screen for a fully automated self contained system.


----------



## Speakender

I’m a new Radiance Pro owner, and I have much to learn.

I currently have two video sources: 1. Oppo UDP-203; 2. AppleTV 4k. The Radiance Pro is feeding video from these sources to a Sony VPL-VW385ES projector, which is paired with a Panamorph Paladin DCR anamorphic lens, and pointed at a 2.35 screen.

Based on this setup, I followed these instructions from Lumagen:

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0007_FixedAnamorphicLens_011818.pdf

However, the image is still stretched a bit vertically (i.e., people have long faces and are tall and skinny). It’s not bad - I don’t think my family would notice it - But it’s noticeable to me.

As a result, I have a few questions:

1. The instructions recommend outputting a 2.37 aspect ratio - Is that to split the difference between 2.35 and 2.4 or is there another reason for their recommendation?

2. Could the vertical stretching I’m seeing (when watching Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, which has a 2.39 aspect ratio) be the result of outputting a 2.37 aspect ratio or is there another variable I need to consider?

3. Is it possible (or worth) setting discrete aspect ratios, like 2.35, 2.39, 2.40, etc., so I can quickly select a custom aspect ratio via the Lumagen remote?

My setup is looking relatively good; I just need to familiarize myself with the interplay between components. Fortunately, each component has a good communitiy on this forum.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Speakender said:


> I’m a new Radiance Pro owner, and I have much to learn.
> 
> I currently have two video sources: 1. Oppo UDP-203; 2. AppleTV 4k. The Radiance Pro is feeding video from these sources to a Sony VPL-VW385ES projector, which is paired with a Panamorph Paladin DCR anamorphic lens, and pointed at a 2.35 screen.
> 
> Based on this setup, I followed these instructions from Lumagen:
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0007_FixedAnamorphicLens_011818.pdf
> 
> However, the image is still stretched a bit vertically (i.e., people have long faces and are tall and skinny). It’s not bad - I don’t think my family would notice it - But it’s noticeable to me.
> 
> As a result, I have a few questions:
> 
> 1. The instructions recommend outputting a 2.37 aspect ratio - Is that to split the difference between 2.35 and 2.4 or is there another reason for their recommendation?
> 
> 2. Could the vertical stretching I’m seeing (when watching Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, which has a 2.39 aspect ratio) be the result of outputting a 2.37 aspect ratio or is there another variable I need to consider?
> 
> 3. Is it possible (or worth) setting discrete aspect ratios, like 2.35, 2.39, 2.40, etc., so I can quickly select a custom aspect ratio via the Lumagen remote?
> 
> My setup is looking relatively good; I just need to familiarize myself with the interplay between components. Fortunately, each component has a good communitiy on this forum.



Those Lumagen instructions are for a typical anamorphic lens - one that stretches in the image horizontally; your Paladin does not do this - it affects the image vertically (and compresses it instead of stretching if I'm not mistaken). 

I don't have this lens and can't help you with specifics (hopefully someone else will chime in) but thought I'd point that out.


----------



## movieguy2001

Speakender said:


> I’m a new Radiance Pro owner, and I have much to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> I currently have two video sources: 1. Oppo UDP-203; 2. AppleTV 4k. The Radiance Pro is feeding video from these sources to a Sony VPL-VW385ES projector, which is paired with a Panamorph Paladin DCR anamorphic lens, and pointed at a 2.35 screen.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on this setup, I followed these instructions from Lumagen:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0007_FixedAnamorphicLens_011818.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> However, the image is still stretched a bit vertically (i.e., people have long faces and are tall and skinny). It’s not bad - I don’t think my family would notice it - But it’s noticeable to me.
> 
> 
> 
> As a result, I have a few questions:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The instructions recommend outputting a 2.37 aspect ratio - Is that to split the difference between 2.35 and 2.4 or is there another reason for their recommendation?
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Could the vertical stretching I’m seeing (when watching Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, which has a 2.39 aspect ratio) be the result of outputting a 2.37 aspect ratio or is there another variable I need to consider?
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Is it possible (or worth) setting discrete aspect ratios, like 2.35, 2.39, 2.40, etc., so I can quickly select a custom aspect ratio via the Lumagen remote?
> 
> 
> 
> My setup is looking relatively good; I just need to familiarize myself with the interplay between components. Fortunately, each component has a good communitiy on this forum.




I ran into the same thing when I was setting up my Lumagen and Paladin. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out. You have set up the scaling correctly, but your output resolution is 3840 x 2160 by default (or at least it was for me). This is a standard 16:9 aspect ratio, while your lens scales to a 17:9 aspect ratio. This is why your image doesn’t look correct. You need to set your output resolution to the native resolution of your display - 4096 x 2160. Once you do this the lumagen will scale correctly with the lens. 

I have to say the lumagen has turned out to be one of the best purchases I have made and it continues to get better with firmware updates. I have also been really happy with the Paladin lens and panamorph’s support has been top notch. The combo of these two working together on a 4K projector is really special. I see myself using these for a very long time. 

I know it adds a little more expense, but I really encourage you to consider a professional calibrator for this setup. They are able to dial in the color and intensity using the tone and intensity mapping on the lumagen and the results are breathtaking. With a laser projector you can expect your investment in calibration to last a long time as there isn’t much change in the output characteristics of the projector over thousands of hours!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Speakender

movieguy2001 said:


> I ran into the same thing when I was setting up my Lumagen and Paladin. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out. You have set up the scaling correctly, but your output resolution is 3840 x 2160 by default (or at least it was for me). This is a standard 16:9 aspect ratio, while your lens scales to a 17:9 aspect ratio. This is why your image doesn’t look correct. You need to set your output resolution to the native resolution of your display - 4096 x 2160. Once you do this the lumagen will scale correctly with the lens.
> 
> I have to say the lumagen has turned out to be one of the best purchases I have made and it continues to get better with firmware updates. I have also been really happy with the Paladin lens and panamorph’s support has been top notch. The combo of these two working together on a 4K projector is really special. I see myself using these for a very long time.
> 
> I know it adds a little more expense, but I really encourage you to consider a professional calibrator for this setup. They are able to dial in the color and intensity using the tone and intensity mapping on the lumagen and the results are breathtaking. With a laser projector you can expect your investment in calibration to last a long time as there isn’t much change in the output characteristics of the projector over thousands of hours!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

For posterity, it was a matter of pressing Menu 0877 on the Lumagen remote to change the output resolution to 4096 x 2160, and now I don’t have a distorted image.

100% agreed on having my setup professionally calibrated. I’ve reached out to Chad B based on several recommendations from this forum.

Thanks again for the help!


----------



## Kris Deering

Craig Peer said:


> That's what I do. Interstellar - I watch it in 2.35:1 with my Paladin DCR lens on a scope screen. Dunkirk - I watch that on my 16:9 screen, since at least 1/2 that movie is 16:9. It's all good.


I always watch the movie in the aspect that it was shown theatrically (non-IMAX), so with both of these I do 2.35. If the director wanted a taller aspect ratio outside of IMAX theaters, he would have done 1.78 theatrically as well.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

Kris Deering said:


> I always watch the movie in the aspect that it was shown theatrically (non-IMAX), so with both of these I do 2.35. If the director wanted a taller aspect ratio outside of IMAX theaters, he would have done 1.78 theatrically as well.


Why not 2.2:1? 
I have only seen it in flat 70mm (which is ca. 2.2:1 not 2.35:1) but I doubt there are any sequences on the disc that are wider than that?


----------



## westmd

When I play HDR content do I need to alter min and max mastering values or are the ones that the Lumagen automatically receives are correct?


----------



## Ian_Currie

How is everyone dealing with the video delay as as result of the Lumagen's processing? My home theater processor can only delay audio by 150ms and that isn't enough to compensate.

I have two sources: 


- HTPC (running Kodi/madVR) which allows me to delay the audio and this works great.

- Panasonic UB820 which does not. 


I wish the Lumagen offered audio delay.


----------



## ereed

Craig Peer said:


> That's what I do. Interstellar - I watch it in 2.35:1 with my Paladin DCR lens on a scope screen. Dunkirk - I watch that on my 16:9 screen, since at least 1/2 that movie is 16:9. It's all good.


How do you tell which aspect ratio the film is mostly in prior to seeing the movie? So with multiple aspect ratios, what do you look for before determining the screen to project it on?


----------



## Craig Peer

ereed said:


> How do you tell which aspect ratio the film is mostly in prior to seeing the movie? So with multiple aspect ratios, what do you look for before determining the screen to project it on?


You don't really. I previewed the film ( Dunkirk ) before watching it with anyone else, on my 122" diagonal 16:9 screen. That's when I decided that for me, it looked better on my 16:9 screen, partially due to the amazing aerial footage. Technically speaking, I don't have a CIH set up - I have two separate electric screens - one 2.35:1, and one 16:9 ( I sort of split the difference size wise vs constant height ). All the other aspect ratio changing movies I've watched once on my 16:9 screen, and those I prefer watching as a scope aspect movie.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Ian_Currie said:


> How is everyone dealing with the video delay as as result of the Lumagen's processing? My home theater processor can only delay audio by 150ms and that isn't enough to compensate.
> 
> I have two sources:
> 
> 
> - HTPC (running Kodi/madVR) which allows me to delay the audio and this works great.
> 
> - Panasonic UB820 which does not.
> 
> I wish the Lumagen offered audio delay.



Lumagens video delay is under 50ms worse case scenario. ( i think Jim may have posted that it's nearer half that) ...so you have an issue with other devices also causing delays and the cascade is a problem or you have some form of auto audio delay that is not working as intended. I have zero audio delay applied in my own system at home.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Gordon Fraser said:


> Lumagens video delay is under 50ms worse case scenario. ( i think Jim may have posted that it's nearer half that) ...so you have an issue with other devices also causing delays and the cascade is a problem or you have some form of auto audio delay that is not working as intended. I have zero audio delay applied in my own system at home.


Thanks, Gordon, that is very interesting (and helpful).

What player do you use?


----------



## movieguy2001

Dumb question - I have an Oppo UHD player and when I start up a UHD blurray the Lumagen automatically switches to a 2:35 widescreen format. I have auto aspect change off, but it seems to do this every time I start up a movie - whether the aspect ratio is 2:35 or not. It only seems to do this for my Oppo player.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is there a setting I might be overlooking? Its been more of an annoyance, but I'd like to figure it out at some point. I'm sure I am missing something.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

movieguy2001 said:


> Dumb question - I have an Oppo UHD player and when I start up a UHD blurray the Lumagen automatically switches to a 2:35 widescreen format. I have auto aspect change off, but it seems to do this every time I start up a movie - whether the aspect ratio is 2:35 or not. It only seems to do this for my Oppo player.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? Is there a setting I might be overlooking? Its been more of an annoyance, but I'd like to figure it out at some point. I'm sure I am missing something.



Put it in 16:9 and do a menu>save>save and see what happens next time you come to it.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Ian_Currie said:


> Thanks, Gordon, that is very interesting (and helpful).
> 
> What player do you use?



I have multiple sources. Currently got a Samsung8500 for UHD testing along with uk 4K satellite and Cable boxes and Apple TV4K


----------



## Mike_WI

*16:9 and do a menu>save>save*



movieguy2001 said:


> Dumb question - I have an Oppo UHD player and when I start up a UHD blurray the Lumagen automatically switches to a 2:35 widescreen format. I have auto aspect change off, but it seems to do this every time I start up a movie - whether the aspect ratio is 2:35 or not. It only seems to do this for my Oppo player.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? Is there a setting I might be overlooking? Its been more of an annoyance, but I'd like to figure it out at some point. I'm sure I am missing something.





Gordon Fraser said:


> Put it in 16:9 and do a menu>save>save and see what happens next time you come to it.


Same with me.
I had just noticed it recently. Not sure if with new FW update or something else.
Will try this simple fix.

Mike


----------



## Mark_H

Gordon Fraser said:


> I have zero audio delay applied in my own system at home.


I'm saying nothing! But if I were, I'm sure my lips would be saying it before your heard my words!


----------



## Ian_Currie

Mark_H said:


> I'm saying nothing! But if I were, I'm sure my lips would be saying it before your heard my words!


Seems like you have the opposite problem I have.


----------



## youngsyp

Ian_Currie said:


> How is everyone dealing with the video delay as as result of the Lumagen's processing? My home theater processor can only delay audio by 150ms and that isn't enough to compensate.
> 
> I have two sources:
> 
> 
> - HTPC (running Kodi/madVR) which allows me to delay the audio and this works great.
> 
> - *Panasonic UB820 which does not*.
> 
> 
> I wish the Lumagen offered audio delay.


The UB820 does offer configurable audio delay.

With sound coming from an Arcam Solobar, fed via the audio only HDMI port on the UB820 (I.e. audio bypassing my Radiance Pro 4242), I have my UB820 set at 50ms delay for UHD BD. This seems to work fine for BD too.

I also have an HTPC (an Intel NUC) running Kodi for a movie library, and that uses 0ms of audio delay, with the audio routed via the 4242 to the Solobar.

Typing this out makes me think I should try routing audio from the UB820 to the Solobar, using a single AV HDMI cable via the 4242...

Paul


----------



## Ian_Currie

youngsyp said:


> The UB820 does offer configurable audio delay.


Paul, where are you seeing the setting for this? I've just looked again and can't find any adjustment.


----------



## Wookii

Moving from the chat in the Sony 885 thread:



bobof said:


> I've just been "playing" with IM at the moment and do really like it, was just hoping to canvas some expert opinion on what works well. I can just "fiddle with the knobs" of course...


There is some guidance throughout this thread, and I think Kris and others have posted their settings a few pages back, but with the lack of any target or standards to aim for, it is very much a 'trial by preference'. 



bobof said:


> Very off topic - but do you bother looking at how it tracks after doing IM? Or just how it tracks once the 2020 / 709 LUTs are loaded?


I have done some measurements in the past, back when I was comparing IM to the Arve curves, but I don't any more. IM works so well, and as I say there is no target curve to calibrate to anyway, so measuring with IM engaged is academic at best. You also have to consider that IM adjusts the curve based on the static HDR metadata of the content being played, so any curve you measure with test patterns and IM engaged is not necessarily going to accurately represent the curve being applied with actual content.

The key thing is getting a good clean 1D LUT (2.4 power gamma and greyscale tracking), that will ensure that IM has the best basis to tone map the HDR into.


----------



## youngsyp

Ian_Currie said:


> Paul, where are you seeing the setting for this? I've just looked again and can't find any adjustment.


Hi Ian,

The setting can be found here: Setup > Player Settings > Sound > Audio Delay

Paul


----------



## Rengozu

JVC RS:600 calibrated by ChadB, Oppo 203, and a Panamorph Paladin lens. 

I always hear about Lumagen and that it can make a perfect companion piece to an anamorphic lens, but never having seen in action or used one, I can't figure out what exactly it would help with in my setup. Just trying to read about it makes me think I'd be in way over my head with it and need calibration assistance, but is it really a noteworthy addition to my current setup? What differences would I see? I only use the Oppo in there on the JVC for video.

Just kind of at that point where my room is done and getting curious about potential upgrades like this.


----------



## Mike_WI

Rengozu said:


> JVC RS:600 calibrated by ChadB, Oppo 203, and a Panamorph Paladin lens.
> 
> I always hear about Lumagen and that it can make a perfect companion piece to an anamorphic lens, but never having seen in action or used one, I can't figure out what exactly it would help with in my setup. Just trying to read about it makes me think I'd be in way over my head with it and need calibration assistance, but is it really a noteworthy addition to my current setup? What differences would I see? I only use the Oppo in there on the JVC for video.
> 
> Just kind of at that point where my room is done and getting curious about potential upgrades like this.


Will DM you.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 070218*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 070218*
Bug in 062718 for 9Ghz inputs could sometimes cause inability to connect with the video source. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Moving from the chat in the Sony 885 thread:
> 
> There is some guidance throughout this thread, and I think Kris and others have posted their settings a few pages back, but with the lack of any target or standards to aim for, it is very much a 'trial by preference'.
> 
> I have done some measurements in the past, back when I was comparing IM to the Arve curves, but I don't any more. IM works so well, and as I say there is no target curve to calibrate to anyway, so measuring with IM engaged is academic at best. You also have to consider that IM adjusts the curve based on the static HDR metadata of the content being played, so any curve you measure with test patterns and IM engaged is not necessarily going to accurately represent the curve being applied with actual content.
> 
> The key thing is getting a good clean 1D LUT (2.4 power gamma and greyscale tracking), that will ensure that IM has the best basis to tone map the HDR into.


Sorry, meant to reply to this the other day and didn't get round to it.
I'm still a way from getting the screen in and being in a position to do the calibration (myself with Lightspace HTP). I did have a play with it and as you say there isn't really much can be said for "calibrating" the curve as it is a fabrication vs the standards I believe; so I will just get a good 2.4 power gamma & greyscale 1D / 3DLUT set up.

At a cursory glance I was very impressed with how IM looked from fiddling with the settings a bit. I did have a little play with Masciola's test disc and could see the max light seemed to be setting the point at which clipping started to happen.

I don't know how other amateur calibrators are feeling about HDR - I'm personally finding it a bit annoying as I start to understand about it - particularly for projection. Because I don't want to use dynamic iris all the options that involve getting higher peak white also involve a contrast ratio sacrifice and / or a black level increase over SDR.

Given how the eye behaves, it really makes me question "what is the point" of HDR for projection.

I can set up my projector easily for >110nits peak with 35,000:1 contrast (iris open), or 56 nits with 65,000:1 contrast (iris at -11). If I'm in a dark room (no ambient light at all) - I question what the value is of the extra nits. The eye will adjust very quickly to the light level in the room and of the projection system, so surely all it is left with is the contrast ratio and black level, both of which are better with the lower peak white.

If I was in a room with a raised black floor, perhaps I would feel differently. But in a dark room with a better black floor than the projector is capable of I'm feeling a little cheated by the industry.

I'm left just feeling like I'm doing HDR in the Lumagen for no other reason than to get an acceptable picture (colorimetry / gamma wise) out of HDR discs so I can enjoy the WCG / Atmos sound / 4k res. It all feels a bit unsatisfactory (not through any fault of the Lumagen - which is a great tool and I certainly wouldn't leave the JVC to do HDR on it's own).

What am I missing folks?


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> I can set up my projector easily for >110nits peak with 35,000:1 contrast (iris open), or 56 nits with 65,000:1 contrast (iris at -11). If I'm in a dark room (no ambient light at all) - I question what the value is of the extra nits. The eye will adjust very quickly to the light level in the room and of the projection system, so surely all it is left with is the contrast ratio and black level, both of which are better with the lower peak white.


There isn't really a wrong answer here, there is no standard for HDR tone mapping as you know, and it is more problematic on projectors than other displays. 

Ultimately then it comes down to personal preference, and the two options you mention are always going to result in a trade off given the current state of domestic projector technology. Until we can get Dolby cinema style 1mil to 1 on/off contrast this is always going to remain the case.

You therefore have to make the decision you outline above as to whether to favour peak highlights, or black level (or chose somewhere in between). Either way Lumagen's IM is going to be the best way to get you there. You could even have multiple settings, one that favours highlights for movies you know are going to be overtly bright, and one than favours black level for movies you know are going to be particularly dark.

Personally, given the measurements you stated above, I'd be cranking the output to max (I would be quite pleased with 35k:1), and switch on the DI (which is very good on the JVC's) to deliver the necessary black level in darker scenes - that would seem the best of both worlds to me.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> There isn't really a wrong answer here, there is no standard for HDR tone mapping as you know, and it is more problematic on projectors than other displays.
> 
> Ultimately then it comes down to personal preference, and the two options you mention are always going to result in a trade off given the current state of domestic projector technology. Until we can get Dolby cinema style 1mil:1 onff contrast this is always going to remain the case.
> 
> You therefore have to make the decision you outline above as to whether to favour peak highlights, or black level (or chose somewhere in between). Either way Lumagen's IM is going to be the best way to get you there. You could even have multiple settings, one that favours highlights for movies you know are going to be overtly bright, and one than favours black level for movies you know are going to be particularly dark.
> 
> Personally, given the measurements you stated above, I'd be cranking the output to max (I would be quite pleased with 35k:1), and switch on the DI (which is very good on the JVC's) to deliver the necessary black level in darker scenes - that would seem the best of both worlds to me.


I'm unlikely to ever get used to the DI enough to leave it engaged. Every time I do try it I end up getting annoyed with it. I don't like the way it deals with going from dark to bright scenes - the bright scene "melts" into view as the iris opens and the gamma curve gets fiddled to match - I find it very distracting when it catches my eye. 

I guess it will just be suck it and see. I'll set up SDR for what I consider reference with the highest contrast and see which option is preferable for HDR. It's great to have the options, mustn't grumble really


----------



## Kris Deering

HDR with projectors is interesting. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not necessarily trying to achieve a fantastic HDR picture akin to what I get on my OLED, but a fantastic SDR+ image that takes advantage of all the perks I can knowing that I will never be able to achieve the same "peaks". The reason having a higher brightness is more of a necessity isn't so you can get "specular highlights" like you do on a flat panel, but mainly to give the signal more breathing room so that artifacts from trying to crunch down such a wide dynamic range into a smaller one don't become an issue. So as little harm as possible so that you can enjoy the wider color, more resolution and higher bit depth afforded by the format.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> HDR with projectors is interesting. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not necessarily trying to achieve a fantastic HDR picture akin to what I get on my OLED, but a fantastic SDR+ image that takes advantage of all the perks I can knowing that I will never be able to achieve the same "peaks". The reason having a higher brightness is more of a necessity isn't so you can get "specular highlights" like you do on a flat panel, but mainly to give the signal more breathing room so that artifacts from trying to crunch down such a wide dynamic range into a smaller one don't become an issue. So as little harm as possible so that you can enjoy the wider color, more resolution and higher bit depth afforded by the format.


Thanks for the description Kris; I can buy that. Makes sense that wrestling with the signal to get the 1000 or 4000 max nits into 56 real nits might just be a step too far. 

Seems a bit of a shame to lose a little bit off the black floor; though I guess the other benefit with a JVC of leaving the iris more open for HDR is that the ANSI contrast is quite a lot higher which I guess helps with the overall image in HDR scenes.

So out of interest; how many nits minimum should I be shooting for, for a good result with IM and HDR content? I guess there's no point opening the iris much more than I have to; if 90 nits is good, then no point opening the iris to 110 nits. Might as well keep as much black as I can?

I'm in an (I guess lucky) situation of having a small screen at 2m wide, so lack of light isn't going to be a problem.


----------



## Kris Deering

I don't think ANSI matters any more with HDR than it did with SDR. If you thought of the imaging science behind it, it would actually be less as the brighter highlights would bias your eye even more than a typical 50% APL image would. ANSI is simply the crutch that displays with bad sequential contrast use to throw pseudo science into their lack of understanding of how contrast and real world images work. 

As for how much light you need, I'm strolling along at about 70 nits right now and the image looks fantastic. Ultimately I think having more headroom is better, but I don't know if you need to stretch much over 100 nits. I personally would rather have more dynamic range than a brighter image, but if you go too dim it is harder to get it to look good with all content and compromises will be seen. You also have to take into account your own priorities in image quality and the viewing enviroment. My screen is pretty big and taxes the RS600 I'm using now. I would like to have 100 nit comfortably, and my next projector will be able to deliver that as a requirement.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I don't think ANSI matters any more with HDR than it did with SDR. If you thought of the imaging science behind it, it would actually be less as the brighter highlights would bias your eye even more than a typical 50% APL image would. ANSI is simply the crutch that displays with bad sequential contrast use to throw pseudo science into their lack of understanding of how contrast and real world images work.
> 
> As for how much light you need, I'm strolling along at about 70 nits right now and the image looks fantastic. Ultimately I think having more headroom is better, but I don't know if you need to stretch much over 100 nits. I personally would rather have more dynamic range than a brighter image, but if you go too dim it is harder to get it to look good with all content and compromises will be seen. You also have to take into account your own priorities in image quality and the viewing enviroment. My screen is pretty big and taxes the RS600 I'm using now. I would like to have 100 nit comfortably, and my next projector will be able to deliver that as a requirement.


Makes sense. Really good info, thanks; once the screen goes up I'll see how much light I've really ended up with and go from there (just been messing around with a temporary screen for now).


----------



## Kurvenal

*Netflix HDR dropouts*

Is anyone having issues watching Netflix HDR titles through the Radiance Pro? I have been getting frequent audio dropouts and some less common video freezing with two out of three Netflix HDR titles I tested.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kurvenal said:


> Is anyone having issues watching Netflix HDR titles through the Radiance Pro? I have been getting frequent audio dropouts and some less common video freezing with two out of three Netflix HDR titles I tested.



Marvel content (Fefenders, Daredevil, Jessica Jones etc) and Glow have dynamically changing HDR meta data which appears to be causing the audio drop out. that is the only content i'vr found. I've emailed Jim and they will look in to it. I suggest you email support direct to help them prioritise it.


----------



## bobof

Kurvenal said:


> Is anyone having issues watching Netflix HDR titles through the Radiance Pro? I have been getting frequent audio dropouts and some less common video freezing with two out of three Netflix HDR titles I tested.





Gordon Fraser said:


> Marvel content (Fefenders, Daredevil, Jessica Jones etc) and Glow have dynamically changing HDR meta data which appears to be causing the audio drop out. that is the only content i'vr found. I've emailed Jim and they will look in to it. I suggest you email support direct to help them prioritise it.


I saw this a while ago, surprised it hasn't been picked up yet (though I guess strictly speaking at least the cause of it is content related). It is an issue it seems particular to AppleTV4K and some Netflix HDR shows. The one I found (quite a bit further up this thread) was Iron Fist. I don't think all the Marvel shows are affected - I >think< Luke Cage is OK. 

At the core is that the AppleTV4K for reasons best known to it for these shows sends out updated HDR metadata exactly every 30s IIRC. If you watch the HDR data in the Radiance debug screens it changes wildly. I'm not sure if it is somehow real "rolling" data expressing what is happening over the next 30s, or something else.

This is not "normal" behaviour I think - HDR10 content doesn't change mid-stream. This causes 3 issues for Radiance users which all come from the same thing; an audio dropout (severity depends on audio settings and AVR); and occasionally a video stutter and raising or falling of the video levels. The audio dropout I believe is observed every time, while the video levels and stutter only when there is a material change between the levels.

Basically the metadata change triggers an HDR settings change, and that change in the Pro isn't clean or a smooth transition, and can have the issues mentioned. It shouldn't happen mid-programme for HDR10 content so it shouldn't be an issue, but Apple / Netflix are sending the new metadata midstream and so it is an issue.

MENU + 0533 turns off the automatic detection of the HDR metadata and I recall stops the issue temporarily. I never got round to working out if there is a way to make that setting "sticky" on a per-input basis, which would be a potential work around (though you'd have to manually select HDR curves then).

If the Radiance adds support dynamic metadata formats like HDR10+ I guess it will have to work out how to transition between metadata levels cleanly, both without causing audio glitches and without obvious jumps in the image levels or motion.

I also have a Sony UHD player with Netflix and that (though much clunkier and a bit crashy) does do HDR playback and doesn't suffer from this issue with the same Netflix content; so Apple / Netflix >could< change their behaviour to work better. I have a feeling they might be using different streams for the AppleTV box which supports DV vs the Sony UHD player which doesn't.

Netflix technical support can be pretty switched on if you get to the right person; I worked with them on an issue that said Sony player had with some content locking up their UIs when a particular EDID was received; they did get this fix into their middleware / app and it stopped being a problem. I might try and get in touch with them again.

Edit: I should add - it isn't just the Radiance Pro that finds this Apple / Neftlix behaviour inconvenient. On the HDFURY Vertex it causes the OSD to display every 30s if you have that enabled; and if you had the Vertex set to send commands to your JVC projector based on the maxCLL information it would be very inconvenient.


----------



## Kurvenal

bobof said:


> I saw this a while ago, surprised it hasn't been picked up yet (though I guess strictly speaking at least the cause of it is content related). It is an issue it seems particular to AppleTV4K and some Netflix HDR shows. The one I found (quite a bit further up this thread) was Iron Fist. I don't think all the Marvel shows are affected - I >think< Luke Cage is OK.
> 
> At the core is that the AppleTV4K for reasons best known to it for these shows sends out updated HDR metadata exactly every 30s IIRC. If you watch the HDR data in the Radiance debug screens it changes wildly. I'm not sure if it is somehow real "rolling" data expressing what is happening over the next 30s, or something else.
> 
> This is not "normal" behaviour I think - HDR10 content doesn't change mid-stream. This causes 3 issues for Radiance users which all come from the same thing; an audio dropout (severity depends on audio settings and AVR); and occasionally a video stutter and raising or falling of the video levels. The audio dropout I believe is observed every time, while the video levels and stutter only when there is a material change between the levels.
> 
> Basically the metadata change triggers an HDR settings change, and that change in the Pro isn't clean or a smooth transition, and can have the issues mentioned. It shouldn't happen mid-programme for HDR10 content so it shouldn't be an issue, but Apple / Netflix are sending the new metadata midstream and so it is an issue.
> 
> MENU + 0533 turns off the automatic detection of the HDR metadata and I recall stops the issue temporarily. I never got round to working out if there is a way to make that setting "sticky" on a per-input basis, which would be a potential work around (though you'd have to manually select HDR curves then).
> 
> If the Radiance adds support dynamic metadata formats like HDR10+ I guess it will have to work out how to transition between metadata levels cleanly, both without causing audio glitches and without obvious jumps in the image levels or motion.
> 
> I also have a Sony UHD player with Netflix and that (though much clunkier and a bit crashy) does do HDR playback and doesn't suffer from this issue with the same Netflix content; so Apple / Netflix >could< change their behaviour to work better. I have a feeling they might be using different streams for the AppleTV box which supports DV vs the Sony UHD player which doesn't.
> 
> Netflix technical support can be pretty switched on if you get to the right person; I worked with them on an issue that said Sony player had with some content locking up their UIs when a particular EDID was received; they did get this fix into their middleware / app and it stopped being a problem. I might try and get in touch with them again.
> 
> Edit: I should add - it isn't just the Radiance Pro that finds this Apple / Neftlix behaviour inconvenient. On the HDFURY Vertex it causes the OSD to display every 30s if you have that enabled; and if you had the Vertex set to send commands to your JVC projector based on the maxCLL information it would be very inconvenient.


Thank you Gordon and bobof. Very, very interesting because those are exactly the titles I was having problems with. Interestingly, I was also having trouble with audio dropouts with at least one of these Netflix titles on my Roku Ultra, but it did not happen right away. 

I will follow-up with Lumagen.


----------



## bobof

Kurvenal said:


> Thank you Gordon and bobof. Very, very interesting because those are exactly the titles I was having problems with. Interestingly, I was also having trouble with audio dropouts with at least one of these Netflix titles on my Roku Ultra, but it did not happen right away.
> 
> I will follow-up with Lumagen.


Try MENU 0533 on the Lumagen remote - that does seem to fix it for me.
If that does work, then a good fix would be to add a per-input per memory option to set this (I'm not sure if the option might already exist - @Gordon Fraser / @jrp ?

I'm going to hook my AppleTV4K up to Xcode so that I can enable the developer heads-up-display. This shows information about the source video and the output format. I want to see if there is some obvious pattern source material wise with what is going on.

Interesting that the Roku Ultra also exhibits the issue. I don't have one of those to be able to test; but I guess it may make a stronger argument for there being a way to bypass the HDR metadata interpreting for now. 

You can check to see if it is the same issue on the Roku as on the AppleTV by looking at the HDR metadata in the Lumagen diagnostic / status screens before and after the glitches - it will usually be different (at least it is on the AppleTV4k)


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## Mike_WI

Since FW Beta 070218 update I have had problems getting inputs to work (Oppo 103 and Amazon Fire) and they only seem to work after doing on/off with various components and projector.


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## bobof

I did install Xcode and enable the developer HUD on my AppleTV4K. This shows no obvious basic difference in the content that works (Luke Cage) vs the content that doesn't (Iron Fist). Both claim to be Dolby Vision streams which are converted by the AppleTV into HDR10 streams because that is all the Lumagen will accept. Not sure if the changing metadata is Apple or Netflix's fault, and so far I've not managed to get through to anyone useful at Netflix to discuss (will try again another evening). It's been like it for months so I don't think it is obviously a problem for the population at large.

It would be good if we could disable the automatic HDR profile switching features on a per-input per-memory basis; this would circumvent the issue seen so far with AppleTV4K (and it sounds the Roku Ultra). Is it possible to store the equivalent of MENU 0533 for each input / memory? Any chance of it getting into a future release @jrp ?


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## Bluemalu

Before I splash out on some new wiring, my old Panasonic TX-L32ET5B has now moved to another room, I have a 15m HDMI lead available, my main TV is 4K and setup nicely with the Lumagen. My question is MENU 0 2 4 OK to force the Lumagen down to 720p as it detects the TV at the end but tries to send 1080p which might be too much.


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## rolldog

The last couple of nights I went to watch a movie in my media room, and after about 5 minutes, I got a message on my screen that my Lumagen Radiance Pro was overheating. I installed some patch panels in my equipment racks to help clean up the wiring of my switches, and to make room for them, I moved the Lumagen up one space to the top of my rack. Since I never got an overheating message before moving it, I thought I would move it back down in my rack where it has more airflow.

Another thing I noticed is that my firmware isn’t up to date. Since I recently purchased this Lumagen, I’ve never had to upgrade the firmware before, but after reading the introductions to do this, I read that I need a USB to DB9 cable to upgrade the firmware from a PC. I didn’t install it, but after it was installed, all I saw that came with it was a standard serial DB9F-DB9F cable. Does anyone know where I can find a USB-DB9 cable or is there another way to update the firmware without this cable? I figured moving the Lumagen back to a place in my rack where it has better airflow plus updating the firmware to the most recent version will probably help with the overheating.

If anyone has any suggestions how I can get one of these cables or if there’s a way to update the firmware without this cable, I’d love some suggestions. Thanks.


----------



## Wookii

rolldog said:


> The last couple of nights I went to watch a movie in my media room, and after about 5 minutes, I got a message on my screen that my Lumagen Radiance Pro was overheating. I installed some patch panels in my equipment racks to help clean up the wiring of my switches, and to make room for them, I moved the Lumagen up one space to the top of my rack. Since I never got an overheating message before moving it, I thought I would move it back down in my rack where it has more airflow.
> 
> Another thing I noticed is that my firmware isn’t up to date. Since I recently purchased this Lumagen, I’ve never had to upgrade the firmware before, but after reading the introductions to do this, I read that I need a USB to DB9 cable to upgrade the firmware from a PC. I didn’t install it, but after it was installed, all I saw that came with it was a standard serial DB9F-DB9F cable. Does anyone know where I can find a USB-DB9 cable or is there another way to update the firmware without this cable? I figured moving the Lumagen back to a place in my rack where it has better airflow plus updating the firmware to the most recent version will probably help with the overheating.
> 
> If anyone has any suggestions how I can get one of these cables or if there’s a way to update the firmware without this cable, I’d love some suggestions. Thanks.


You only need a standard USB (A to B) cable for firmware updates.


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## Eventidal

rolldog said:


> The last couple of nights I went to watch a movie in my media room, and after about 5 minutes, I got a message on my screen that my Lumagen Radiance Pro was overheating. I installed some patch panels in my equipment racks to help clean up the wiring of my switches, and to make room for them, I moved the Lumagen up one space to the top of my rack. Since I never got an overheating message before moving it, I thought I would move it back down in my rack where it has more airflow.
> 
> Another thing I noticed is that my firmware isn’t up to date. Since I recently purchased this Lumagen, I’ve never had to upgrade the firmware before, but after reading the introductions to do this, I read that I need a USB to DB9 cable to upgrade the firmware from a PC. I didn’t install it, but after it was installed, all I saw that came with it was a standard serial DB9F-DB9F cable. Does anyone know where I can find a USB-DB9 cable or is there another way to update the firmware without this cable? I figured moving the Lumagen back to a place in my rack where it has better airflow plus updating the firmware to the most recent version will probably help with the overheating.
> 
> If anyone has any suggestions how I can get one of these cables or if there’s a way to update the firmware without this cable, I’d love some suggestions. Thanks.


You might as well want to change the fan speed if overheating occurs again.


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## bobof

rolldog said:


> The last couple of nights I went to watch a movie in my media room, and after about 5 minutes, I got a message on my screen that my Lumagen Radiance Pro was overheating. I installed some patch panels in my equipment racks to help clean up the wiring of my switches, and to make room for them, I moved the Lumagen up one space to the top of my rack. Since I never got an overheating message before moving it, I thought I would move it back down in my rack where it has more airflow.


In a rack which doesn't have sufficient active cooling to evacuate all the heat produced in general you are best off having stuff you care about (things with mechanical moving parts like hard drives / optical drives, sensitive electronics) lower down in a rack. Hottest stuff at the top. Unfortunately this often means heavy stuff like power amps that the natural inclination might be to put at the bottom for mechanical stability.


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## rolldog

Thanks for the info. I think I have one of those cables laying around somewhere.

How do I change the fan speed? Gregg Loewen came to my house for a week to calibrate everything, so I'm not familiar with the interface besides changing the aspect ratio. I've never even seen the Lumagen outside of my rack. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## rolldog

My racks have intake fans in the front bottom of my racks and exhaust fansat the top and top back of the rack. They speeds of the fans are controlled automatically by the temp inside the rack,which usually fluctuates between 70-80 degrees Fahrenheit. I also had 2 AC vents installed in the equipment room and 2 air intakes.


bobof said:


> In a rack which doesn't have sufficient active cooling to evacuate all the heat produced in general you are best off having stuff you care about (things with mechanical moving parts like hard drives / optical drives, sensitive electronics) lower down in a rack. Hottest stuff at the top. Unfortunately this often means heavy stuff like power amps that the natural inclination might be to put at the bottom for mechanical stability.


Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## bobof

rolldog said:


> My racks have intake fans in the front bottom of my racks and exhaust fansat the top and top back of the rack. They speeds of the fans are controlled automatically by the temp inside the rack,which usually fluctuates between 70-80 degrees Fahrenheit. I also had 2 AC vents installed in the equipment room and 2 air intakes.


Sounds impressive, but you're the one posting about overheating (!)  . Unless the reason for you post was that you think the Radiance is mistaken? 

Worth checking (dumb question, perhaps, I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs) - do you have an empty rackspace both underneath and on top of the unit (1U) or underneath the unit (2U)? And a way for cool air to get to the inlet? The inlet is in the bottom in both cases, the 2U exhausts out the back and the 1U out the top. (I'm sure on the 1U, don't have access to a 2U but that is how I think it works)

I design pro AV gear and have looked at lots of quite broken though well intentioned rack layouts in the past; fans and temperature control sound great in principle but don't mean you don't have hotspots in your rack.

And as I say, having sensitive stuff at the top of the rack isn't the best setup, your gear will thank you if you get stuff with motors and sensitive electronics closer to the bottom.


----------



## rolldog

bobof said:


> Sounds impressive, but you're the one posting about overheating (!)  . Unless the reason for you post was that you think the Radiance is mistaken?
> 
> Worth checking (dumb question, perhaps, I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs) - do you have an empty rackspace both underneath and on top of the unit (1U) or underneath the unit (2U)? And a way for cool air to get to the inlet? The inlet is in the bottom in both cases, the 2U exhausts out the back and the 1U out the top. (I'm sure on the 1U, don't have access to a 2U but that is how I think it works)
> 
> I design pro AV gear and have looked at lots of quite broken though well intentioned rack layouts in the past; fans and temperature control sound great in principle but don't mean you don't have hotspots in your rack.
> 
> And as I say, having sensitive stuff at the top of the rack isn't the best setup, your gear will thank you if you get stuff with motors and sensitive electronics closer to the bottom.


Exactly! I am posting about the Lumagen overheating since it’s the only component installed in 3 x 55 inch racks that has warned me that it’s overheating. I’m hoping when the message popped up telling me that it was overheating at 110 that it means Fahrenheit, not Celsius. At 110 degree Fahrenheit, it shouldn’t even have a warning. Either the Lumagen is especially sensitive to temperatures or something is really wrong if it’s reading 110 degrees Celsius. The hottest I’ve ever recorded the processor in any of my electronics is 70 degrees Celsius, but I was running 1.35 volts through it. I know for a fact that I don’t have any hot spots in my equipment enclosure because the temp sensors and the fans I installed take readings from multiple areas, post the temp from each area, average the temps, and then calculate the delta, relative to ambient temps. I know a microprocessor can run up to 90 degrees Celsius before I need to worry about degradation. Like I mentioned, I didn’t setup my equipment, I’m just trying to prevent it from overheating. 

The Lumagen was installed in the top 1U spot in one of my racks. I just pulled it out and noticed that the exhaust for the Lumagen is on the top. So, I’m moving some networking gear, some Control4 gear, and some QNAP gear up a spot in my rack so I can reinstall the Lumagen further down in the rack. The Lumagen is the only thing overheating, nothing else, and I didn’t realize it has a fan setting. I need to check and make sure it’s running on high or at least make sure it’s turned on, but hopefully moving it down in the rack will help.


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## jtjjen

rolldog said:


> Thanks for the info. I think I have one of those cables laying around somewhere.
> 
> How do I change the fan speed? Gregg Loewen came to my house for a week to calibrate everything, so I'm not familiar with the interface besides changing the aspect ratio. I've never even seen the Lumagen outside of my rack.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


To change fan speed:

Menu—> Other —> Fan Control


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## Kurvenal

bobof said:


> I did install Xcode and enable the developer HUD on my AppleTV4K. This shows no obvious basic difference in the content that works (Luke Cage) vs the content that doesn't (Iron Fist). Both claim to be Dolby Vision streams which are converted by the AppleTV into HDR10 streams because that is all the Lumagen will accept. Not sure if the changing metadata is Apple or Netflix's fault, and so far I've not managed to get through to anyone useful at Netflix to discuss (will try again another evening). It's been like it for months so I don't think it is obviously a problem for the population at large.
> 
> It would be good if we could disable the automatic HDR profile switching features on a per-input per-memory basis; this would circumvent the issue seen so far with AppleTV4K (and it sounds the Roku Ultra). Is it possible to store the equivalent of MENU 0533 for each input / memory? Any chance of it getting into a future release @jrp ?


I should have mentioned that one of the titles that I am having problems with is Luke Cage. It sounds like you are saying that it works for you? I was getting the exact same issues described by bobof in his reply above. 

Incidentally, I used the Netflix "Report a Problem" option for each title in Viewing Activity in my account that had issues to report on this problem in detail as requested by Netflix support. Maybe if enough people did this it might get their attention?


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## rolldog

jtjjen said:


> To change fan speed:
> 
> Menu—> Other —> Fan Control


Thank you!


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> Exactly! I am posting about the Lumagen overheating since it’s the only component installed in 3 x 55 inch racks that has warned me that it’s overheating. I’m hoping when the message popped up telling me that it was overheating at 110 that it means Fahrenheit, not Celsius. At 110 degree Fahrenheit, it shouldn’t even have a warning. Either the Lumagen is especially sensitive to temperatures or something is really wrong if it’s reading 110 degrees Celsius. The hottest I’ve ever recorded the processor in any of my electronics is 70 degrees Celsius, but I was running 1.35 volts through it. I know for a fact that I don’t have any hot spots in my equipment enclosure because the temp sensors and the fans I installed take readings from multiple areas, post the temp from each area, average the temps, and then calculate the delta, relative to ambient temps. I know a microprocessor can run up to 90 degrees Celsius before I need to worry about degradation. Like I mentioned, I didn’t setup my equipment, I’m just trying to prevent it from overheating.
> 
> The Lumagen was installed in the top 1U spot in one of my racks. I just pulled it out and noticed that the exhaust for the Lumagen is on the top. So, I’m moving some networking gear, some Control4 gear, and some QNAP gear up a spot in my rack so I can reinstall the Lumagen further down in the rack. The Lumagen is the only thing overheating, nothing else, and I didn’t realize it has a fan setting. I need to check and make sure it’s running on high or at least make sure it’s turned on, but hopefully moving it down in the rack will help.


Well, unless your fan is broken, or the fan control logic buggy, most likely is your install is problematic. You've already seen a change in behaviour from one spot in the rack to another - so there is either a starving of air or a difference in rack temperature in those two positions.

The Lumagen temperature display is centrigrade (like most electronics and engineering, due to direct relationship to the underlying Kelvin scale), so it sounds much too hot. The FPGA does run quite hot in these units - target of 84'C would be maintaining a delta of around 50-60degrees to the air intake in most installations.

You've already said you didn't notice the exhaust on the top... this means you've got a 1U unit I guess?
Are you / has your installer left an empty rack space clear underneath the unit? Or at least the equivalent height of the feet. The air intake is on the bottom.

If you have left the bottom of the unit clear, then where is the air into the bottom of the unit coming from - is it convected out of whatever it is sat on top of?

I'm not sure the fan speed will necessarily help you unless the temperature spikes causing the issue are very short lived while it ramps up the fan. This is because the fan speed is the minimum fan speed, and it ramps up the fan speed to maintain the target temperature. 110'C is much higher than the highest target temperature of 94'C.
You can see the current fan speed on the screen that the fan control algorithm has set.

See the manual:

"Fan Control
The target FPGA (“Chip”) temperature can be selected as well as the minimum fan speed. It is
recommended that the target FPGA Chip temperature is selected as 84C, which is the default. Temperatures
up to 94C can be selected, and for most systems work fine, but system speed is rated at 85C.
The minimum fan speed helps maintain a more consistent FPGA temperature. The minimum fan speed
defaults to 4.
The FPGA temperature is shown in the menu and on the Info Screen page 2. The command is:
MENU → Other → Fan Control"


----------



## rolldog

bobof said:


> Well, unless your fan is broken, or the fan control logic buggy, most likely is your install is problematic. You've already seen a change in behaviour from one spot in the rack to another - so there is either a starving of air or a difference in rack temperature in those two positions.
> 
> The Lumagen temperature display is centrigrade (like most electronics and engineering, due to direct relationship to the underlying Kelvin scale), so it sounds much too hot. The FPGA does run quite hot in these units - target of 84'C would be maintaining a delta of around 50-60degrees to the air intake in most installations.
> 
> You've already said you didn't notice the exhaust on the top... this means you've got a 1U unit I guess?
> Are you / has your installer left an empty rack space clear underneath the unit? Or at least the equivalent height of the feet. The air intake is on the bottom.
> 
> If you have left the bottom of the unit clear, then where is the air into the bottom of the unit coming from - is it convected out of whatever it is sat on top of?
> 
> I'm not sure the fan speed will necessarily help you unless the temperature spikes causing the issue are very short lived while it ramps up the fan. This is because the fan speed is the minimum fan speed, and it ramps up the fan speed to maintain the target temperature. 110'C is much higher than the highest target temperature of 94'C.
> You can see the current fan speed on the screen that the fan control algorithm has set.
> 
> See the manual:
> 
> "Fan Control
> The target FPGA (“Chip”) temperature can be selected as well as the minimum fan speed. It is
> recommended that the target FPGA Chip temperature is selected as 84C, which is the default. Temperatures
> up to 94C can be selected, and for most systems work fine, but system speed is rated at 85C.
> The minimum fan speed helps maintain a more consistent FPGA temperature. The minimum fan speed
> defaults to 4.
> The FPGA temperature is shown in the menu and on the Info Screen page 2. The command is:
> MENU → Other → Fan Control"


The Lumagen was installed in the top 1U space at the top of one of my racks with a 24 Port Switch directly beneath it. I pulled it out, moved the switches up in the rack, and now have my Lumagen installed around mid rack with a small amount of space above and below it. If I had to guess, having it sandwiched between a 24 Port Switch and the top of my rack probably made it overheat since it wasn't getting any airflow. I'll try it again tomorrow while waiting for Gregg to get some feedback from Lumagen.


----------



## bobof

Kurvenal said:


> I should have mentioned that one of the titles that I am having problems with is Luke Cage. It sounds like you are saying that it works for you? I was getting the exact same issues described by bobof in his reply above.
> 
> Incidentally, I used the Netflix "Report a Problem" option for each title in Viewing Activity in my account that had issues to report on this problem in detail as requested by Netflix support. Maybe if enough people did this it might get their attention?


You're right; either they've updated the streams for Luke Cage to now be failing or I'm mis-remembering. I just checked it again and Luke Cage does fail now for me.

Altered Carbon does appear to work correctly though. I checked it in the HUD and it appears the same as the failing titles - ie a DolbyVision title converted to HDR10 by the AppleTV.

I'm not sure if the problem is Apple's or Netflix's but would be good to try and get it fixed at source.


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> The Lumagen was installed in the top 1U space at the top of one of my racks with a 24 Port Switch directly beneath it. I pulled it out, moved the switches up in the rack, and now have my Lumagen installed around mid rack with a small amount of space above and below it. If I had to guess, having it sandwiched between a 24 Port Switch and the top of my rack probably made it overheat since it wasn't getting any airflow. I'll try it again tomorrow while waiting for Gregg to get some feedback from Lumagen.


Sounds like you're on the right tracks.
The switch directly underneath would almost certainly have been blocking the intake.

In general gear which isn't specifically designed for forced air rack cooling front to back (which is basically everything home theatre) needs very careful consideration as to how and where it goes in a rack, and how air travels through that rack. Pros aren't immune to making mistakes either; Years ago I saw a custom rack shelf for a device from a very well known rack company that had covered up the product intake vents...!


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## sjschaff

*Kodi - Nvidia Shield settings for Lumagen Pro*

Just got this and was wondering what settings are appropriate to feed the Lumagen. Seems that Adjust display refresh rate to match video and Sync Playback to Display are most relevant but not clear on ideal settings. I have both 1080p and 3840 UHD content entering the Nvidia but would like to ensure best picture yet avoid the Nvidia doing any heavy lifting or otherwise mucking things up and leave it to the Lumagen if possible.


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## rolldog

Well, it seems like moving the Lumagen further down in my rack did the trick. I guess it wasn’t getting enough air flow sitting above 2 Ubiquiti 16 Port switches, in the top 1U position. After moving it, I was able to watch everything in its 4096x2160 glory. This thing must have some powerful components inside for it to be able to hit 110 degrees in just a matter of minutes. I’m SO glad nothing was damaged inside at those temps. 110 is way too hot for a warning to pop up. I would have set the overheating warning to come on around 90 degrees, but they must know the limitations of what’s inside. I should build a custom watercooler for this thing.


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## SJHT

If fan noise it not an issue (my equipment is located in a different room than my theater), then leave the fan on max. That’s what I do. SJ


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## bobof

rolldog said:


> Well, it seems like moving the Lumagen further down in my rack did the trick. I guess it wasn’t getting enough air flow sitting above 2 Ubiquiti 16 Port switches, in the top 1U position. After moving it, I was able to watch everything in its 4096x2160 glory. This thing must have some powerful components inside for it to be able to hit 110 degrees in just a matter of minutes. I’m SO glad nothing was damaged inside at those temps. 110 is way too hot for a warning to pop up. I would have set the overheating warning to come on around 90 degrees, but they must know the limitations of what’s inside. I should build a custom watercooler for this thing.


It must have been pretty hot and / or quite starved of air. My unit maintains 85'C with the fan settled around 7. That is on a bottom shelf in a closed cupboard in a room which is about 70'F.

The top "target" temperature is 94'C I seem to remember.


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## rolldog

Well mine was definitely starved for air, on the top and the bottom of the Lumagen. Now I has plenty of clearance above and below it. Now I can get back to enjoying it.


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## BrolicBeast

SJHT said:


> If fan noise it not an issue (my equipment is located in a different room than my theater), then leave the fan on max. That’s what I do. SJ


Same here.... helps eliminate cooling concerns across all devices. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## rolldog

Here's some pics of my equipment room, which is still work in progress. Unfortunately, I had to put another one downstairs. I would have liked to keep all the racks in here, but it didn't work out that way. I'm about to put some movie memorabilia/movie posters on the walls, and I've been considering having a moulding made, where the ceiling starts to slope up from the wall and add some LED lighting, which would shine upwards towards the ceiling. The enclosure these racks are in have fan intakes at the bottom of each one, axial fan exhausts on the top of the enclosure, which run at full speed all the time, and I have 4 x 120mm fans exhausting air out of the back. The fans on the back of the enclosure, and the ones on the bottom in the front, are controlled based on the temperature inside of the enclosure. I also had some HVAC guys add 2 AC vents in here and and 2 intakes, one at each end of the hallway.


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## bobof

rolldog said:


> Here's some pics of my equipment room, which is still work in progress. Unfortunately, I had to put another one downstairs. I would have liked to keep all the racks in here, but it didn't work out that way. I'm about to put some movie memorabilia/movie posters on the walls, and I've been considering having a moulding made, where the ceiling starts to slope up from the wall and add some LED lighting, which would shine upwards towards the ceiling. The enclosure these racks are in have fan intakes at the bottom of each one, axial fan exhausts on the top of the enclosure, which run at full speed all the time, and I have 4 x 120mm fans exhausting air out of the back. The fans on the back of the enclosure, and the ones on the bottom in the front, are controlled based on the temperature inside of the enclosure. I also had some HVAC guys add 2 AC vents in here and and 2 intakes, one at each end of the hallway.


What's keeping the integra cool? Even if it is only a processor it can still go through about 70W I believe.


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## rolldog

There’s enough air flow inside of this enclosure to keep everything cool. There’s about a foot of open space between the back of the racks and the back of the enclosure. The temperature inside stays between 70-80 degrees Fahrenheit, even when all the switches, amplifiers, and processors running. The Integra is kind of old, and I’ve been thinking about swapping it out for Marantz’s 8805, although, I have an Anthem in my rack downstairs, which I got about 3 months ago, and I’ve been happy with it. I was very impressed with Anthem’s auto calibration, which comes with a microphone configured specifically for this Anthem to run the calibration. I’ve had a Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Yamaha, plus this Integra, and I think the Anthem’s autocal works the best. 

I really don’t need to upgrade, but I’d like to if I can get better sound quality out of my new Triad speakers. These days, it’s much easier to buy a new processor if one stops working or if you’re buying one for a room that doesn’t have one, but it’s much more difficult to upgrade for better sound quality since most of the local home theater shops, where you could actually demo equipment, have all shut down.


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## LJG

Hi Jim:

I was wondering if you would be kind enough to share the roadmap for updates to the Lumagen. What is being worked on for the near future?


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## nonstopdoc1

Complete n00b question here. 

Some of the lumagen models have multiple inputs. Whats the benefit? Isn't it supposed to take the output from AVR/PrePro, process it and output to the display so all you actually need is just 1 input? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Complete n00b question here.
> 
> Some of the lumagen models have multiple inputs. Whats the benefit? Isn't it supposed to take the output from AVR/PrePro, process it and output to the display so all you actually need is just 1 input?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Many of us setup our equipment so that all sources go into the Lumagen Pro (I'm using all 8 inputs right now). One output goes to my projector, another goes to my audio processor. In my case, a third output goes to a secondary display. This setup allows you to tweak each input (via the Lumagen). SJ


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## nonstopdoc1

SJHT said:


> Many of us setup our equipment so that all sources go into the Lumagen Pro (I'm using all 8 inputs right now). One output goes to my projector, another goes to my audio processor. In my case, a third output goes to a secondary display. This setup allows you to tweak each input (via the Lumagen). SJ


Thanks for the clarification. So if I am understanding correctly, Multiple video sources -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Display setup should technically work without any problem.


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## dlinsley

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. So if I am understanding correctly, Multiple video sources -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Display setup should technically work without any problem.


Yes. I've run both methods with my Anthem MRX1120, but returned to the Radiance taking all the inputs as the number of HDMI syncs was reduced when changing channels on DirecTV.


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## bobof

SJHT said:


> Many of us setup our equipment so that all sources go into the Lumagen Pro (I'm using all 8 inputs right now). One output goes to my projector, another goes to my audio processor. In my case, a third output goes to a secondary display. This setup allows you to tweak each input (via the Lumagen). SJ





nonstopdoc1 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. So if I am understanding correctly, Multiple video sources -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Display setup should technically work without any problem.


If you want to have per input settings you can apply many of the settings using the Lumagen "virtual inputs". On the Pro units you actually get 8 virtual inputs to which you can assign any physical input. So you could have all 8 virtual inputs set to the same physical input. On switching inputs using your control system (eg Logitech Harmony) you'd switch both the AVR and the Lumagen to the desired input. 

There are other reasons to prefer the setup with the Lumagen receiving all inputs. You can't be sure all processing is disabled in the AVR hardware; the AVR hardware may have HDMI quirks; and smaller HDMI chains are generally better. But routing everything via the AVR probably lets you easily see things like volume level which otherwise you might not see, and give easier access to the AVR OSD.

For now I have my Pro setup with just audio going to the AVR, the Lumagen video out going to the display primary HDMI inptus and the AVR hooked up to a second input on the projector so I can bring up the OSD if I really need to, All sources via the Lumagen. If I run out of inputs on the Lumagen I might use an input switch and the virtual inputs instead of taking advantage of the AVR inputs.


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## nonstopdoc1

bobof said:


> If you want to have per input settings you can apply many of the settings using the Lumagen "virtual inputs". On the Pro units you actually get 8 virtual inputs to which you can assign any physical input. So you could have all 8 virtual inputs set to the same physical input. On switching inputs using your control system (eg Logitech Harmony) you'd switch both the AVR and the Lumagen to the desired input.
> 
> There are other reasons to prefer the setup with the Lumagen receiving all inputs. You can't be sure all processing is disabled in the AVR hardware; the AVR hardware may have HDMI quirks; and smaller HDMI chains are generally better. But routing everything via the AVR probably lets you easily see things like volume level which otherwise you might not see, and give easier access to the AVR OSD.
> 
> For now I have my Pro setup with just audio going to the AVR, the Lumagen video out going to the display primary HDMI inptus and the AVR hooked up to a second input on the projector so I can bring up the OSD if I really need to, All sources via the Lumagen. If I run out of inputs on the Lumagen I might use an input switch and the virtual inputs instead of taking advantage of the AVR inputs.





dlinsley said:


> Yes. I've run both methods with my Anthem MRX1120, but returned to the Radiance taking all the inputs as the number of HDMI syncs was reduced when changing channels on DirecTV.





SJHT said:


> Many of us setup our equipment so that all sources go into the Lumagen Pro (I'm using all 8 inputs right now). One output goes to my projector, another goes to my audio processor. In my case, a third output goes to a secondary display. This setup allows you to tweak each input (via the Lumagen). SJ


Thanks guys!

Is this something that needs to be installed and setup by a dealer or can one order it online and can be setup by a prosumer like me. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## bobof

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is this something that needs to be installed and setup by a dealer or can one order it online and can be setup by a prosumer like me.


It's not clear from your post if you have lots of video calibration gear and software already and you know all about this stuff or not.

There's nothing to stop a consumer setting these up (nothing's locked down), but most consumers don't have the gear necessary to set them up to their full potential. One of the biggest benefits is from the 3DLUT correction capabilities, which means a certain level of investment in software, probes, know how, etc.

The intensity mapping HDR stuff is neat and you can set that up without meters, as you can with the Darbee functionality for 1080p sources and advanced scaling, but really I think if you're giving your system a Lumagen injection it also deserves a bit of pro attention (unless you are the pro!  )

I do set mine up all myself but I'm probably not typical...


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## nonstopdoc1

One last thing. Are these upgradable in case a newer version of HDMI e.g HDMI 2.1 comes out or you have a to replace them with a newer unit like AVRs?


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## bobof

nonstopdoc1 said:


> One last thing. Are these upgradable in case a newer version of HDMI e.g HDMI 2.1 comes out or you have a to replace them with a newer unit like AVRs?


The HDMI IO cards are quite easily upgradeable (easier in the 424x than the original 2U 444x). There has already been upgrade to 18G cards from 9G cards.

However, with respect to HDMI2.1, I think the answer is "potentially upgradeable to some, but not all functionality / performance". @jrp can answer in more detail (perhaps it has come up before). I might be mistaken on some of the below.

From what I can tell the 424x units (I have 4242) only have 18G of I/O bandwidth internally on the video backplane to / from the FPGA, so while they could potentially support some features of HDMI2.1 with an upgraded IO card (perhaps even a microcode for the existing 18G card) there isn't any more bandwidth available than the current cards allow for.

I understand the 444x have a different setup and have 36G of I/O backplane bandwidth available to / from the FPGA; so if Lumagen created an input or output card which spanned two of the current IO card slots they could perhaps get up to 36G - which is a bit short of the full HDMI2.1 max spec, but probably covers most formats people will need.

This difference in backplane is I think what also allows the option (as yet unimplemented) of some PIP/POP functionality on the 444x units. From what I can tell PIP/POP would only ever be able to work for 18G signals between different cards, not between the the 2 18G HDMI inputs on a single card (that limit might apply to any signal type on an 18G card, not just 18G signals).


----------



## kaotikr1

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Is this something that needs to be installed and setup by a dealer or can one order it online and can be setup by a prosumer like me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk




I’ve had quite a few customers just like you and they all set them up. Your dealer would be a valuable resource and everyone on these forums are willing to assist should you run into any issues. 

It’s a product that I can’t be without.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Hi Jim:
> 
> I was wondering if you would be kind enough to share the roadmap for updates to the Lumagen. What is being worked on for the near future?


This question bears repeating. Especially with more and more Dolby Vision 4k movies coming out, it would be nice if the Radiance Pro can upgrade/implement the dynamic per frame HDR evaluation.


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> This question bears repeating. Especially with more and more Dolby Vision 4k movies coming out, it would be nice if the Radiance Pro can upgrade/implement the dynamic per frame HDR evaluation.


I'm not completely sure of the relevance to the quantity of DV titles coming out - not sure what link you are making? - Dynamic per frame HDR evaluation would offer no specific benefit to DV content over HDR10 content.

Perhaps as interesting if it ever gets a foothold - HDR10+ seems to be announcing in the last day that it has actually made it into TVs and there is content on the way (only one studio as yet). The admin license cost for HDR10+ is a pittance so I can't see any reason why Lumagen wouldn't support that, assuming the standards exist now for it happening over HDMI.
https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/28/hdr10-plus-panasonic-samsung-4k-tv/


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> I'm not completely sure of the relevance to the quantity of DV titles coming out - not sure what link you are making? - Dynamic per frame HDR evaluation would offer no specific benefit to DV content over HDR10 content.
> 
> Perhaps as interesting if it ever gets a foothold - HDR10+ seems to be announcing in the last day that it has actually made it into TVs and there is content on the way (only one studio as yet). The admin license cost for HDR10+ is a pittance so I can't see any reason why Lumagen wouldn't support that, assuming the standards exist now for it happening over HDMI.
> https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/28/hdr10-plus-panasonic-samsung-4k-tv/


I suspect Steve was referencing Lumagen's own proprietary frame-by-frame tone mapping where the processor would make its own assessment of each forthcoming frame and adjust tone mapping dynamically - Jim made reference to it being a possibility some time ago. The major benefit is it would be much more accurate than relying on any metadata, and would make (for Lumagen owners) reliance on DV or HDR10+ metadata redundant.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> I suspect Steve was referencing Lumagen's own proprietary frame-by-frame tone mapping where the processor would make its own assessment of each forthcoming frame and adjust tone mapping dynamically - Jim made reference to it being a possibility some time ago. The major benefit is it would be much more accurate than relying on any metadata, and would make (for Lumagen owners) reliance on DV or HDR10+ metadata redundant.


Ok, just seemed a bit non-sequitur - that more DV content in the market made it a more important feature for Lumagen to have. I was wondering if Steve was under a mis-aprehension that the a dynamic HDR solution would help when presented with DV content, hence why he wants it now there is more DV content. It won't, as all Lumagen will be able to deal with is the HDR10 base layer, or an HDR10 conversion from DV in the case of AppleTV.


----------



## LJG

Wookii said:


> I suspect Steve was referencing Lumagen's own proprietary frame-by-frame tone mapping where the processor would make its own assessment of each forthcoming frame and adjust tone mapping dynamically - Jim made reference to it being a possibility some time ago. The major benefit is it would be much more accurate than relying on any metadata, and would make (for Lumagen owners) reliance on DV or HDR10+ metadata redundant.


Yes this would be a nice addition, dynamic tone mapping. It would be nice at least to hear his road map. However if Jim does not wish to share I can respect that also, its a great product.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Wookii said:


> I suspect Steve was referencing Lumagen's own proprietary frame-by-frame tone mapping where the processor would make its own assessment of each forthcoming frame and adjust tone mapping dynamically - Jim made reference to it being a possibility some time ago. The major benefit is it would be much more accurate than relying on any metadata, and would make (for Lumagen owners) reliance on DV or HDR10+ metadata redundant.


Thanks. You techno wookie language is much better than mine!


----------



## Wookii

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Thanks. You techno wookie language is much better than mine!


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDR with Auto Tone Mapping function*

What are thoughts on the new JVC projector HDR with Auto Tone Mapping function?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...ctor-anticipation-thread-49.html#post56729038

Update:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...ctor-anticipation-thread-50.html#post56729552

*● Is their new tone mapping based on static HDR metadata, or are they doing real-time processing to calculate each frame’s peak brightness to emulate HDR10+ (similar to what MadVR does [EDIT:apparently, the UB820 only processes HDR10 static metadata])*

Yes it is indeed based on static HDR metadata, similar to how the new Panasonic UB820 and UB9000 Blu-Ray players operate. 

Furthermore, a rather neat feature, it tells you what is the media’s static HDR metadata. See this photo that I took which shows this:



Update: 
Picture of on screen GUI for JVC tone mapping:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...ctor-anticipation-thread-80.html#post56754892


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## KarlKlammer

I hope the N7 still features the "Reference" color profile and blissfully ignores every internal HDR/BT.2020-mechanism when receiving SDR2020.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Now I've had my VW5000ES for 11 months, and properly setup and calibrated by the amazing Ken Whitcomb since mid last December! I've learned some things in using the projector especially in conjunction with the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

1. Initially, I had a lot of issues getting video picture and sync for some months. These issues have been alleviated by (1) 50' Monoprice fiber 18 gbs HDMI cable (the Ruipro I had been using went sour); and (2) setting the Radiance Pro so that the output refresh rate is the same as the input refresh rate (E.G. Menu-0-8-7-2 set output 4k24 and 4k60 same as input rate)

2. I played with the "input lag reduction" feature, which went on initially seemed to cure the video picture and sync issue. However, this turns off Motion Flow except for "Impulse" and also turns off "Reality Creation". And I found that #1 above solved the issue without needing "input lag reduction" on for this. 

3. I have a 14' wide Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 2.40 aspect ratio Snomatte 1.0 gain screen (with masking coming in from the sides all the way to 4:3). Some shows on Netflix are a 2.0 aspect ratio. Some 4k & blu ray discs and tv programs/movies (DirecTV, Netflix, Amazon, etc) are varying aspect ratios 4:4/1:66/1:78/1:85/2:0/2:20/2:35/2:39 (and more). The Radiance Pro does give me the benefit of being able to match the proper aspect ratio of the video source
even more so than does the projector (E.G. for a 2:0 or 2:20 aspect ratio, I can hit the "16:9" button and then zoom the image with the Radiance Pro so the top and bottom of the picture fill the screen and then I can set the sides of the screen to the edge of the picture).

4. I had to experiment myself over time. And what I found that was using the Radiance Pro to scale 720p and 1080i HD video to 4k then output to the projector is as a whole simply not nearly as good or satisfying on average as letting the Radiance Pro output native 720p and 1080p (for 1080i video) for blu ray disc 1080p24 and 720p and 1080i tv (DirecTV, Netflix, Amazon, etc) (the latter recommended by JoeRod). With the Radiance Pro outputting everything as 4k, I had difficulty seeing much of a difference using different Motion Flow settings on blu ray disc 1080p24 and 720p and 1080i tv. This is not the case when outputting from the Radiance Pro 720p and 1080p for blu ray and tv, I can see the differences. 

Lately, I've been liking setting Motion Flow to "Smooth High" for 4k and 4k blu ray movies and also for DirecTV 4k video (Manual states this setting smoother picture movement, especially for film-based content); and to "Smooth Low" for regular tv video (Manual states this setting provides smoother picture movement for standard use). I tried using the Radiance Pro for 24p video to output 60p, and felt that it made people look a bit too cartoonish in outline, whereas the projector's Motion Flow seems to be natural.

And with Reality Creation on, lately on most tv and blu ray 1080p I often set Resolution as "high" as 65 (never higher) (I keep RC's Noise Reduction at 10), and on 4k video I find that using RC gives me a bit of more real 3D without detracting from the picture and I use Resolution as high as 65 depending on the movie and how it looks - RC makes the picture look a bit more real life 3D and if not set too high doesn't detract from how I like the picture. 

I know that professional calibrators like to set up projectors with Motion Flow and Reality Creation set to off, and may find that video setup patterns do not look right engaging these features. My prior 9.5 year Sim2 C3X1080p projector had its best picture using my then Radiance XE to output 1080p24/1080p60 and setting off scaling and using "pixel perfect" setting for the projector. And my prior Dwin CRT projectors of course had no such scaling, etc features built-in to the projector. 
But again, I have to admit JoeRod was right!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Now I've had my VW5000ES for 11 months, and properly setup and calibrated by the amazing Ken Whitcomb since mid last December! I've learned some things in using the projector especially in conjunction with the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

1. Initially, I had a lot of issues getting video picture and sync for some months. These issues have been alleviated by (1) 50' Monoprice fiber 18 gbs HDMI cable (the Ruipro I had been using went sour); and (2) setting the Radiance Pro so that the output refresh rate is the same as the input refresh rate (E.G. Menu-0-8-7-2 set output 4k24 and 4k60 same as input rate)

2. I played with the "input lag reduction" feature, which went on initially seemed to cure the video picture and sync issue. However, this turns off Motion Flow except for "Impulse" and also turns off "Reality Creation". And I found that #1 above solved the issue without needing "input lag reduction" on for this. 

3. I have a 14' wide Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 2.40 aspect ratio Snomatte 1.0 gain screen (with masking coming in from the sides all the way to 4:3). Some shows on Netflix are a 2.0 aspect ratio. Some 4k & blu ray discs and tv programs/movies (DirecTV, Netflix, Amazon, etc) are varying aspect ratios 4:4/1:66/1:78/1:85/2:0/2:20/2:35/2:39 (and more). The Radiance Pro does give me the benefit of being able to match the proper aspect ratio of the video source
even more so than does the projector (E.G. for a 2:0 or 2:20 aspect ratio, I can hit the "16:9" button and then zoom the image with the Radiance Pro so the top and bottom of the picture fill the screen and then I can set the sides of the screen to the edge of the picture).

4. I had to experiment myself over time. And what I found that was using the Radiance Pro to scale 720p and 1080i HD video to 4k then output to the projector is as a whole simply not nearly as good or satisfying on average as letting the Radiance Pro output native 720p and 1080p (for 1080i video) for blu ray disc 1080p24 and 720p and 1080i tv (DirecTV, Netflix, Amazon, etc) (the latter recommended by JoeRod). With the Radiance Pro outputting everything as 4k, I had difficulty seeing much of a difference using different Motion Flow settings on blu ray disc 1080p24 and 720p and 1080i tv. This is not the case when outputting from the Radiance Pro 720p and 1080p for blu ray and tv, I can see the differences. 

Lately, I've been liking setting Motion Flow to "Smooth High" for 4k and 4k blu ray movies and also for DirecTV 4k video (Manual states this setting smoother picture movement, especially for film-based content); and to "Smooth Low" for regular tv video (Manual states this setting provides smoother picture movement for standard use). I tried using the Radiance Pro for 24p video to output 60p, and felt that it made people look a bit too cartoonish in outline, whereas the projector's Motion Flow seems to be natural.

And with Reality Creation on, lately on most tv and blu ray 1080p I often set Resolution as "high" as 65 (never higher) (I keep RC's Noise Reduction at 10), and on 4k video I find that using RC gives me a bit of more real 3D without detracting from the picture and I use Resolution as high as 65 depending on the movie and how it looks - RC makes the picture look a bit more real life 3D and if not set too high doesn't detract from how I like the picture. 

I know that professional calibrators like to set up projectors with Motion Flow and Reality Creation set to off, and may find that video setup patterns do not look right engaging these features. My prior 9.5 year Sim2 C3X1080p projector had its best picture using my then Radiance XE to output 1080p24/1080p60 and setting off scaling and using "pixel perfect" setting for the projector. And my prior Dwin CRT projectors of course had no such scaling, etc features built-in to the projector. But again, I have to admit JoeRod was right!

5. Last but not least, the Radiance Pro's tonemapping (setup by my calibrator) is outstanding and really makes 4k HDR watching so much better.
My calibrator setup on the Radiance Pro the "A" button for tonemapping and the "B" button for straight HDR without tonemapping and the positive difference using tonemapping is very evident on my 14' wide flat 1.0 gain screen! Whether disc players or a firmware upgrade for the projector ever do it as well as the Radiance Pro is speculative, especially as the rumor is that Lumagen is working on per frame dynamic tonemapping.


----------



## dlinsley

Does anyone know if Lumagen are involved in one of the other CEDIA booths? They aren't on the exhibitor list, but potentially with Kaleidescape? I was hoping that amongst their summer vacation, maybe Dynamic Tone Mapping or PiP/PoP were going to be shown


----------



## SJHT

They are not here to my knowledge, but Kris Deering is setting up a Sony 5000 with a Lumagen Pro at the Harmon booth. I’m going to stop by and hopefully chat with him tomorrow. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

dlinsley said:


> Does anyone know if Lumagen are involved in one of the other CEDIA booths? They aren't on the exhibitor list, but potentially with Kaleidescape? I was hoping that amongst their summer vacation, maybe Dynamic Tone Mapping or PiP/PoP were going to be shown


I have no idea, but recall several years ago attending CES and going through the Lumagen booth.
I thought it was far too expensive for me to ever buy.
That changed.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi Guys,

I would like to share with you my own development of Lumagen Radiance Systems Control Application.
By now it can only set all the labels in you Lumagen Device.
1. Input Labels
2. Output Custom Labels
3. Output CMS Labels
5. Output Styles Labels

*Download link: http://gofile.me/3o5m5/JETwkwxnF*

This is the info panel when you start up the application:








































1. Connect your Lumagen Radiance device to your PC and select appropriate serial port from the list.
2. Once the port is select click Connect and the connection should be established.
3. Navigate through the appropriate tabs, the labels you want to update with required Namings. 
4. Click send across relevant name input for the label this will update your label at Lumagen Radiance system
5. After you have updated all required labels, you'll have to save the latest settings in Lumagen. 
Click MENU → Save → Save → OK → OK
6. All the labels will be now saved in global config and upon next boot up, the settings will be preloaded. 

Note: at the moment, there is a small issue updating Input labels. Lumagen Support team is working to resolve that small issue and with the next firmware update it should be resolved. Once the firmware update with the fix is released, I'll release my application update, which will give you an access to input labels.

Thank you and enjoy, I hope this will help you to save time on setting the correct labels via this app and not via the remote control .
Any feedback is appreciated in this thread or via direct email: [email protected]

There is a separate thread for this App:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...plication-sergey-kravchenko.html#post56772040


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 090118*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 090118*
Fix for sometimes incorrectly setting mode with 'Reduce Max' setting enabled. 
Fix for the set input label command (and rs232 version of it) which only set the label for memory A of the input. 
Small improvement to internal HDR parameter calculations. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Tuning

I am new to the anamorphic world and had a quick question. Is it possible to use lumagen pro to change the aspect ratio such that when the projector is put in the anamorphic mode, the right ratio picture is displayed without the use of anamorphic lens?

In other words, is it possible to get the extra brightness using the projector anamorphic mode and just the lumagen without the use of anamorphic lens?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Tuning said:


> I am new to the anamorphic world and had a quick question. Is it possible to use lumagen pro to change the aspect ratio such that when the projector is put in the anamorphic mode, the right ratio picture is displayed without the use of anamorphic lens?
> 
> *In other words, is it possible to get the extra brightness using the projector anamorphic mode and just the lumagen without the use of anamorphic lens?*


 *NO*

With say a 2:40 screen like mine, you set up the projector so the top and bottom overscan the screen, not using the top and bottom combined about 25% of the screen. The only way to utilize the full 17:9 panel is to use an anamorphic lens.

Even with an anamorphic lens, if you have the Radiance Pro, you can use the Radiance Pro to then adjust the aspect ratio.


----------



## Tuning

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> *NO*
> 
> With say a 2:40 screen like mine, you set up the projector so the top and bottom overscan the screen, not using the top and bottom combined about 25% of the screen. The only way to utilize the full 17:9 panel is to use an anamorphic lens.
> 
> Even with an anamorphic lens, if you have the Radiance Pro, you can use the Radiance Pro to then adjust the aspect ratio.


Thanks for the response. 

I am curious, why is this not feasible through lumagen? Take for example, the 17:9 ratio. It is activated by using the projectors anamorphic mode, correct? So essentially it does the vertical/horizontal stretch. A lens like paladin dci then does 0.8x vertical squeeze to bring the image to the correct ratio. 

Instead why is it not possible to stretch and squeeze the image through lumagen so that when the anamorphic mode is activated, the projector restores the image to the right ratio. In other words, if lumagen can squeeze the image by 0.8x before sending to projector, shouldn’t the projectors’s anamorphic mode restore the image by applying the right stretch? 
What am I missing here?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Tuning said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> I am curious, why is this not feasible through lumagen? Take for example, the 17:9 ratio. It is activated by using the projectors anamorphic mode, correct? So essentially it does the vertical/horizontal stretch. A lens like paladin dci then does 0.8x vertical squeeze to bring the image to the correct ratio.
> 
> Instead why is it not possible to stretch and squeeze the image through lumagen so that when the anamorphic mode is activated, the projector restores the image to the right ratio. In other words, if lumagen can squeeze the image by 0.8x before sending to projector, shouldn’t the projectors’s anamorphic mode restore the image by applying the right stretch?
> What am I missing here?


I can only say it doesn’t work that way as the 4k chips are 17:9!


----------



## Kris Deering

Not true. You could use the full 4096 witha 4K projector without a lens. You will get a very modest bump in light output, but not as much as using an anamorphic lens. You can’t do an anamorphic squeeze though. You’re just doing 17:9 instead of 16:9.


----------



## littlemoses

Hi all (this is my first post here). I have a question regarding the radiance pro and HDR output / intensity mapping. Is it possible to configure the radiance so that it will output an "HDR info" frame but with "standard gamma". Background: My TV (Panasonic OLED, 2018 model) has a setting per HDMI input called "HDMI EOTF TYPE" where it is possible to select from "PQ / HLG / Traditional Gamma" so i figured that setting this to "Traditional Gamma" and feeding it a "HDR signal" would then allow me to "defeat" the "tone mapping" but still get the max. possible luminance (HDR Mode). The plan would then be to use a 3D lut (lightspace) together with the intensity mapping pros intensity mapping feature. From what i have read it would be possible to output SDR from the pro (which implies a "standard gamma") but then the TV would not go into HDR mode. I hope that makes sense, all input is welcome. Thanks!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> Not true. You could use the full 4096 witha 4K projector without a lens. You will get a very modest bump in light output, but not as much as using an anamorphic lens. You can’t do an anamorphic squeeze though. You’re just doing 17:9 instead of 16:9.


However, I have tried with my Radiance Pro outputting 3840 consumer HD as 4096 and I found in my setup (no anamorphic lens) a noticeable softening of the picture, so I stick to 3840.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

littlemoses said:


> Hi all (this is my first post here). I have a question regarding the radiance pro and HDR output / intensity mapping. Is it possible to configure the radiance so that it will output an "HDR info" frame but with "standard gamma". Background: My TV (Panasonic OLED, 2018 model) has a setting per HDMI input called "HDMI EOTF TYPE" where it is possible to select from "PQ / HLG / Traditional Gamma" so i figured that setting this to "Traditional Gamma" and feeding it a "HDR signal" would then allow me to "defeat" the "tone mapping" but still get the max. possible luminance (HDR Mode). The plan would then be to use a 3D lut (lightspace) together with the intensity mapping pros intensity mapping feature. From what i have read it would be possible to output SDR from the pro (which implies a "standard gamma") but then the TV would not go into HDR mode. I hope that makes sense, all input is welcome. Thanks!





I have not tried this trick on the new Panasonics. It should be possible though. This would utilise the new HDR flag feature that went in to the firmware a few weeks ago.


----------



## bobof

Doing the most basic auto aspect setup, what decides how to treat the various input aspects?
If I set my screen to 2.4:1 aspect in the style settings, with the vertical shrunk appropriately - I notice that 1.78:1 content is displayed pillarboxed, while 2.0:1 content is zoomed to will the screen width (ie top/bottom cropped). What if you preferred 2.0 content to be displayed pillarboxed? How would you set that up?


----------



## turls

Haven't been here for a while but amused that some discussion over the past couple months that the beta is or should be over--when many menu options are not live...and of course the 3 initials that shall not be mentioned...of course whether it is "beta" or not we know that they keep working on these for a long long time...


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

turls said:


> Haven't been here for a while but amused that some discussion over the past couple months that the beta is or should be over--when many menu options are not live...and of course the 3 initials that shall not be mentioned...of course whether it is "beta" or not we know that they keep working on these for a long long time...


They are, and I must admit Lumagen is the best Video Processor on the market in the whole world. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

New Radiance Pro 4446-18G owner. The unit came in a 2U case, and the manual stated 2U cases would be used until the stock was exhausted. I thought that since the Pro was released a couple of years, I would be getting a 1U case.

I am guessing since they have been out for a couple of years that is why my 18G unit has “9G” under the HDMI input and output ports?

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dlinsley

giomania said:


> I am guessing since they have been out for a couple of years that is why my 18G unit has “9G” under the HDMI input and output ports?


I would verify that they are really 18G ports. If this was a 9G unit upgraded to 18G, the upgrade boards come with 18G stickers to place on the rear of the unit by the upgraded ports.


----------



## giomania

dlinsley said:


> I would verify that they are really 18G ports. If this was a 9G unit upgraded to 18G, the upgrade boards come with 18G stickers to place on the rear of the unit by the upgraded ports.




Thanks for the reply. It shipped directly from Lumagen with the 18G boards, but I guess they forgot the stickers. 🧐. I will take a closer look at the accessories, but I am pretty sure they weren’t in there.

I got it set up last night and am sending 4K 60 HDR through and 18 G is listed on one of the info screen pages.

Interestingly, my 50-foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable exhibited recurring flashing until I used an HDMI voltage inserter on the output of the Lumagen.

Another issue is that two of my sources that will only pass 2-channel audio, so I probably to modify the EDID for those sources. They passed the bitstream audio just fine from the Radiance 4442, but I had modified EDID for that unit, as I recall.

It was a late night last night, but I am initially pleased with the upscaling quality to 4K 60.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SJHT

And here is how to find out what your ports are:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2172017-new-lumagen-radiance-pro-series-107.html#post56323848


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Thanks for the reply. It shipped directly from Lumagen with the 18G boards, but I guess they forgot the stickers. 🧐. I will take a closer look at the accessories, but I am pretty sure they weren’t in there.
> 
> I got it set up last night and am sending 4K 60 HDR through and 18 G is listed on one of the info screen pages.
> 
> Interestingly, my 50-foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable exhibited recurring flashing until I used an HDMI voltage inserter on the output of the Lumagen.
> 
> Another issue is that two of my sources that will only pass 2-channel audio, so I probably to modify the EDID for those sources. They passed the bitstream audio just fine from the Radiance 4442, but I had modified EDID for that unit, as I recall.
> 
> It was a late night last night, but I am initially pleased with the upscaling quality to 4K 60.


Are you using the 9G HDMI audio output as well, or just the 18G video / audio out? If I recall you only get stereo out by default on the 18G out if you only have the 18G video out connected and nothing on the audio HDMI. Might have changed in recent firmwares - doesn't affect me now as I use the HDMI audio out these days.


----------



## giomania

SJHT said:


> And here is how to find out what your ports are:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-107.html#post56323848




Thanks, that’s what I saw, with all “Y”’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Are you using the 9G HDMI audio output as well, or just the 18G video / audio out? If I recall you only get stereo out by default on the 18G out if you only have the 18G video out connected and nothing on the audio HDMI. Might have changed in recent firmwares - doesn't affect me now as I use the HDMI audio out these days.




Thanks bobof.

Yes, I am only using the 18GHz video/audio outputs 2 and 4, but one source sent DTS-HD MA from the same MKV file I was testing across the sources, so maybe EDID manipulation for those inputs will fix it.

The sources were the OPPO UDP-203 (direct play from NAS), Nvidia Shield TV Pro (Plex app), and a Mede8er X10003D media player (direct play from NAS). Only the Mede8er sent the bitstream, so some research is required.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Thanks bobof.
> 
> Yes, I am only using the 18GHz video/audio outputs 2 and 4, but one source sent DTS-HD MA from the same MKV file I was testing across the sources, so maybe EDID manipulation for those inputs will fix it.
> 
> The sources were the OPPO UDP-203 (direct play from NAS), Nvidia Shield TV Pro (Plex app), and a Mede8er X10003D media player (direct play from NAS). Only the Mede8er sent the bitstream, so some research is required.


Sounds like it still behaves the same by default, and the Mede8er just ignores the sink EDID and sends whatever is configured. The older non-pro units had a bit better audio EDID management - I think on the pros there are just a couple of "presets" you can select, instead of the big formats table where you could enable and disable individual formats. I just stuck something on the audio HDMI output with a copy of the audio EDID I wanted merging with the video EDID - I understand that the default behaviour for the pro sinks is basically "merge the audio output HDMI EDID or fallback to stereo only".


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Sounds like it still behaves the same by default, and the Mede8er just ignores the sink EDID and sends whatever is configured. The older non-pro units had a bit better audio EDID management - I think on the pros there are just a couple of "presets" you can select, instead of the big formats table where you could enable and disable individual formats. I just stuck something on the audio HDMI output with a copy of the audio EDID I wanted merging with the video EDID - I understand that the default behaviour for the pro sinks is basically "merge the audio output HDMI EDID or fallback to stereo only".




So that’s why I couldn’t find that audio EDID table last night. Darn, that came in handy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## giomania

SJHT said:


> And here is how to find out what your ports are:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-107.html#post56323848




So I have the original microcode, which probably doesn’t matter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> Yes, The Radiance certainly offers many solid benefits - no question... it's worth it.
> 
> I just think at times they need to look at technology implementation from a user perspective, not only calibrator-centric. Something like cleaning up tone mapping, if possible - improving/simplifying/automating better would be a significant improvement (I refer to the frame-based analysis, chiefly, under the presumption that would contribute greatly in this regard). They are a small company and are very tech-focused in their resources it seems (which is largely an excellent thing) but even a bit more attention to GUI organization and quality wouldn't be a bad thing...ethernet with web/IP control might also make sense at one point.
> 
> Separately, I am discussing with Sony the concept of adding a HDR via SDR mode to the 5000 (no tone mapping and HDR luminance passed under an SDR flag). Maybe something like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would help for anyone one else here (dealers/calibrators) that have good contacts within Sony to also make this case. I don't know if there are technical limitations to this, but it can't hurt for multiple people to raise the possibility.


Anything further from Sony on adding this feature?


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> Thanks for the reply. It shipped directly from Lumagen with the 18G boards, but I guess they forgot the stickers. 🧐. I will take a closer look at the accessories, but I am pretty sure they weren’t in there.
> 
> I got it set up last night and am sending 4K 60 HDR through and 18 G is listed on one of the info screen pages.
> 
> Interestingly, my 50-foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable exhibited recurring flashing until I used an HDMI voltage inserter on the output of the Lumagen.
> 
> Another issue is that two of my sources that will only pass 2-channel audio, so I probably to modify the EDID for those sources. They passed the bitstream audio just fine from the Radiance 4442, but I had modified EDID for that unit, as I recall.
> 
> It was a late night last night, but I am initially pleased with the upscaling quality to 4K 60.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





bobof said:


> Are you using the 9G HDMI audio output as well, or just the 18G video / audio out? If I recall you only get stereo out by default on the 18G out if you only have the 18G video out connected and nothing on the audio HDMI. Might have changed in recent firmwares - doesn't affect me now as I use the HDMI audio out these days.





giomania said:


> Thanks bobof.
> 
> Yes, I am only using the 18GHz video/audio outputs 2 and 4, but one source sent DTS-HD MA from the same MKV file I was testing across the sources, so maybe EDID manipulation for those inputs will fix it.
> 
> The sources were the OPPO UDP-203 (direct play from NAS), Nvidia Shield TV Pro (Plex app), and a Mede8er X10003D media player (direct play from NAS). Only the Mede8er sent the bitstream, so some research is required.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Update: 
I solved this audio EDID issue by using the following miscellaneous direct command:

"Menu 0943", which does the following: "Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources (feature toggle)".

Mark


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Update:
> I solved this audio EDID issue by using the following miscellaneous direct command:
> 
> "Menu 0943", which does the following: "Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources (feature toggle)".


Thanks for following up . I was aware of this code a while ago but I'd forgotten all about it as my system seemed to work OK. I should try it out on my own system though - I occasionally end up with no audio on startup with my Arcam AVR - only seems to get fixed by swapping inputs back and forth on the Lumagen.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

bobof said:


> Thanks for following up . I was aware of this code a while ago but I'd forgotten all about it as my system seemed to work OK. I should try it out on my own system though - I occasionally end up with no audio on startup with my Arcam AVR - only seems to get fixed by swapping inputs back and forth on the Lumagen.


Might be useful 
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0013_DirectCommandsAndMenuShortcuts_071316.pdf all commands and shortcuts.


----------



## Sandel

This might be of interest for some of you. Sorry, it's a bit out of focus, but here the content matters more than the PQ, I'd say...


----------



## jkeifer3

*Radiance Pro Recommendations*

I have recently purchased a new projector, a Sony VPLVW885ES in 4K UHD, to replace my old Epson 6010 and Lumagen 2143 combo. Come to find out that the 2143 needs to be replaced as well if I am to enjoy the full capabilities of the projector and the Sony 4k UHD player I've got.


At the current time, I have only the single 4K UHD source and the one projector. For audio, I use a McIntosh MX-150 taking the audio from the 2143. I have four or five other 1080p sources that I'd still like to use if at all possible including a DirecTV receiver, an OPPO BDP-95 for video and SACD playback, a computer interface, an old Toshiba HD-DVD player and I need an input back from the McIntosh MX-150 for viewing menus and other setup information.


Regarding the Radiance Pro, do I need 18Ghz ins and outs or are 9Ghz fine? Any suggestions as to which models would fit my needs would be much appreciated! Thanks!


----------



## Mike_WI

jkeifer3 said:


> I have recently purchased a new projector, a Sony VPLVW885ES in 4K UHD, to replace my old Epson 6010 and Lumagen 2143 combo. Come to find out that the 2143 needs to be replaced as well if I am to enjoy the full capabilities of the projector and the Sony 4k UHD player I've got.
> 
> 
> At the current time, I have only the single 4K UHD source and the one projector. For audio, I use a McIntosh MX-150 taking the audio from the 2143. I have four or five other 1080p sources that I'd still like to use if at all possible including a DirecTV receiver, an OPPO BDP-95 for video and SACD playback, a computer interface, an old Toshiba HD-DVD player and I need an input back from the McIntosh MX-150 for viewing menus and other setup information.
> 
> 
> Regarding the Radiance Pro, do I need 18Ghz ins and outs or are 9Ghz fine? Any suggestions as to which models would fit my needs would be much appreciated! Thanks!


If you get a new Lumagen I would get 18GHz.
You could contact dealer or Lumagen directly about trade-in/ups.


----------



## jkeifer3

Mike_WI said:


> I you get a new Lumagen I would get 18GHz.
> You could contact dealer or Lumagen directly about trade-in/ups.


Thanks Mike. I'll take your advice and contact Lumagen directly.


----------



## giomania

Can you ask them to send me the 18 GHz stickers they forgot to include with my unit? 🧐


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jkeifer3

giomania said:


> Can you ask them to send me the 18 GHz stickers they forgot to include with my unit? 🧐
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I did contact them and they said that the 18 GHZ stickers you are talking about are a $1,995.95 option.


----------



## uderman

jkeifer3 said:


> I have recently purchased a new projector, a Sony VPLVW885ES in 4K UHD, to replace my old Epson 6010 and Lumagen 2143 combo. Come to find out that the 2143 needs to be replaced as well if I am to enjoy the full capabilities of the projector and the Sony 4k UHD player I've got.
> 
> 
> At the current time, I have only the single 4K UHD source and the one projector. For audio, I use a McIntosh MX-150 taking the audio from the 2143. I have four or five other 1080p sources that I'd still like to use if at all possible including a DirecTV receiver, an OPPO BDP-95 for video and SACD playback, a computer interface, an old Toshiba HD-DVD player and I need an input back from the McIntosh MX-150 for viewing menus and other setup information.
> 
> 
> Regarding the Radiance Pro, do I need 18Ghz ins and outs or are 9Ghz fine? Any suggestions as to which models would fit my needs would be much appreciated! Thanks!


I would do all 9Ghz inputs and maybe one 18GHz output card. There is no content that requires 18GHz bandwidth. Billy Lynn’s long halftime walk is the only UHD BD that has 4K60 in 10bit and HDR. All others including the content on streaming services (i.e. netflix, prime) are 4K24 in 10bit/HDR which is below 9GHz bandwidth.

18GHz output card might be useful when you upscale 1080i60/720p60 (Cable TV) to 4K60 in 8Bit. 9GHz card will subsample to 4:2:0 chroma space and 18GHz will keep it at 4:2:2. It’s debatable if you can see the difference.

There are also some disadvantages of 18GHz cards. They don’t allow Pip/Pop on the same card. And you lose one video output. 

I have a 4449 with one 18GHz input and one 18GHz output. Billy Lynn disc is the only time I took full advantage of it. I don’t know how many I will watch that movie. 

Due to no pip/pop on the 18Ghz card, I only hook up 1 device on that card. So my system is now 7 inputs. But then pip/pop is still a “coming soon on fw update” feature. I may not care for it as much when it is available.


----------



## Mike_WI

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/


----------



## jkeifer3

uderman said:


> I would do all 9Ghz inputs and maybe one 18GHz output card. There is no content that requires 18GHz bandwidth. Billy Lynn’s long halftime walk is the only UHD BD that has 4K60 in 10bit and HDR. All others including the content on streaming services (i.e. netflix, prime) are 4K24 in 10bit/HDR which is below 9GHz bandwidth.
> 
> 18GHz output card might be useful when you upscale 1080i60/720p60 (Cable TV) to 4K60 in 8Bit. 9GHz card will subsample to 4:2:0 chroma space and 18GHz will keep it at 4:2:2. It’s debatable if you can see the difference.
> 
> There are also some disadvantages of 18GHz cards. They don’t allow Pip/Pop on the same card. And you lose one video output.
> 
> I have a 4449 with one 18GHz input and one 18GHz output. Billy Lynn disc is the only time I took full advantage of it. I don’t know how many I will watch that movie.
> 
> Due to no pip/pop on the 18Ghz card, I only hook up 1 device on that card. So my system is now 7 inputs. But then pip/pop is still a “coming soon on fw update” feature. I may not care for it as much when it is available.



After consulting with Jim, I decided to go with a 4444 with six inputs, four at 18Ghz and two at 9Ghz, and two outputs one at 9Ghz and one at 18Ghz.


I am looking forward to learning the ins and outs of the new unit and moving up to 4k.


Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!


----------



## Ian_Currie

uderman said:


> . There is no content that requires 18GHz bandwidth. Billy Lynn’s long halftime walk is the only UHD BD that has 4K60 in 10bit and HDR. All others including the content on streaming services (i.e. netflix, prime) are 4K24 in 10bit/HDR which is below 9GHz bandwidth.


I don't think this is correct. I think you need for 18ghz for any UHD content.


----------



## thrang

Ian_Currie said:


> I don't think this is correct. I think you need for 18ghz for any UHD content.


No 9 ghz is sufficient for 2160/24p 4:2:0


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> No 9 ghz is sufficient for 2160/24p 4:2:0


Hmm, I guess I will to dig deeper and see if I can get my 4k sources to work in the 9ghz inputs. I have two 18ghz and two 9ghz and I've been manually switching cables because the 9ghz wouldn't give me HDR.


----------



## Wookii

Ian_Currie said:


> Hmm, I guess I will to dig deeper and see if I can get my 4k sources to work in the 9ghz inputs. I have two 18ghz and two 9ghz and I've been manually switching cables because the 9ghz wouldn't give me HDR.


Which devices? The problem with many is their opening menu is 2160p at 50/60Hz. The better option though is probabaly just to buy another 18Ghz card.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Wookii said:


> Which devices? The problem with many is their opening menu is 2160p at 50/60Hz. The better option though is probabaly just to buy another 18Ghz card.


One that I can think of offhand is the Google Chromecast.


----------



## uderman

4K 24/25/30 in 12 bit 4:2:2 is 8.9 Gbps and standard input cards are capable of handling these. As I said earlier, all UHD content is 4K24 10bit 4:2:0 with one exception of Billy Lynn which is 4K60 10bit 4:2:0.

I have the Oppo player and an Apple TV 4K. Both have 9Ghz mode for menus and all.

9GHz Pros: Sufficient for all content with very rare exceptions. Less prone to Hdmi cabling issues, faster switching
9GHZ Cons: Some devices will output menus in 4K60 in 12 bit which is above 9Ghz.

18GHz Pros: Can handle all content and menus from any device
18GHz Cons: Slower switching, More likely to have issues with long HDMI runs, No PIP/POP on the same input card, you lose one video output which becomes audio only.

I have the Radiance 4449 with a built in 8x7 Matrix (7 independent zones). I do want PIP/POP when available. 18GHz cards can't PIP/POP and switching is slower. I bought a set of one 18GHz input and output cards for the sake of science. I wanted to test out if it would benefit me with the devices I have. So far I found no need.


----------



## Kris Deering

LJG said:


> Anything further from Sony on adding this feature?


It doesn't need it. HDR passed as SDR via something like the Lumagen or the Panasonic UB820 works just fine with both the 885ES and 5000ES. I've done it with both with no issues. I'm currently doing it with a 885ES in my house right now with fantastic results.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> I don't think this is correct. I think you need for 18ghz for any UHD content.


Not the case. There are quite a few tables that will show you the bandwidth requirements.


----------



## jkeifer3

giomania said:


> Can you ask them to send me the 18 GHz stickers they forgot to include with my unit? 🧐
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



My 4444 was delivered with every connector screen printed 18Ghz. Only the 9Ghz I/O ports had a sticker


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> It doesn't need it. HDR passed as SDR via something like the Lumagen or the Panasonic UB820 works just fine with both the 885ES and 5000ES. I've done it with both with no issues. I'm currently doing it with a 885ES in my house right now with fantastic results.


I'm beginning to think my experiences may be partly related to a less-than-optimal calibration of the Radiance for SDR2020 out, though this in inconclusive to me atm.

My calibrator's process certainly felt like it was like a "work-in-progress" based on the number of calls that were required to Jim... and it took a second visit.

At this point, Jim seems to be recommending Lightspace calibrations as opposed to Calman (which was used for my calibration) for optimal results. However, the one Lightspace calibrator I could find quoted me more than $3,000 including travel. 

Nonetheless the hybrid approach is still producing stellar results with my particular playback chain, even if it is not the optimal method.

(BTW - I've been largely away from AVS a while - daughter's wedding and then vacation, so apologies for not posting on this for some time)


----------



## dlinsley

Sandel said:


> This might be of interest for some of you. Sorry, it's a bit out of focus, but here the content matters more than the PQ, I'd say...
> http://youtu.be/eW4BU2ysBdE


So Jim was in Germany... Was he there for Oktoberfest? Or after the back and forth with Madshi a few pages ago, was he was delivering a Radiance dev board?


----------



## bobof

Now we have some HDR10+ titles on UHD announced, any chance of getting HDR10+ support in the Pro?
https://www.avsforum.com/first-imax-enhanced-4k-blu-rays-announced-featuring-hdr10/

Would also dearly love some improvements to the auto-aspect detection, which is still a bit patchy in places. That has to be my pet peeve for the moment.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bobof said:


> Now we have some HDR10+ titles on UHD announced, any chance of getting HDR10+ support in the Pro?
> https://www.avsforum.com/first-imax-enhanced-4k-blu-rays-announced-featuring-hdr10/
> 
> Would also dearly love some improvements to the auto-aspect detection, which is still a bit patchy in places. That has to be my pet peeve for the moment.



That would be nice wouldn't it


----------



## bobof

Gordon Fraser said:


> That would be nice wouldn't it


Not sure which bit; they'd both be nice   

Well, it will be particularly nice if HDR10+ actually takes off. Dolby are being such a bunch of >expletive deleted< with DV.
Hopefully we will see Lumagen soon on the HDR10+ adopters list:
https://hdr10plus.org/current-adopters/
From what I can see the "join the club" fees for HDR10+ are so minimal that you could consider them token.
It's not much of a title list yet though... Can only hope I guess.

The auto aspect niggles are just "getting on my wick" a bit now... It has been a long time since this was first addd to the 20xx product and it is still pretty patchy in use. Everything else about the Pro basically works for me now in my setup. 

I've got an electric mask screen with top / bottom masks and there are two setups I'd like to put in place (16:9 full screen with automatic masking down to content size, and 2.4 CIH with auto zooming) and it seems neither could be made to work robustly with the detection as it stands. It looks like perhaps there is encoding noise present in a lot of scope content which puts just above black pixels in the black bars (perhaps) - so maybe it just needs a tweak of the thresholds. It would also be really nice if the delays which have changed over time but always been hard coded became user facing. 

A bit of a question on the setup of the first of those; if I have the screen set to 1.78:1 and auto-aspect enabled, when 2.35 or other aspect ratio content is displayed it will cause the content to zoom to fill the 16:9 height (if it detects the bars correctly). How can I make the Radiance detect the aspect ratio change but not actually scale the image? I'm not sure the options available would allow me to report the aspect of the content to a control system but not actually apply any scaling to the image. Anyone else set this up?


----------



## dlinsley

I've preordered the JVC RS3000 projector and am thinking of using the Paladin DCR with it for more brightness in scope HDR. To simplify installation, I'd just leave it in place. Presumably auto-aspect is a pain with the likes of Nolan's movies in a fixed lens system? I guess you get to see all of the frame, as intended, but you shrink then expand back?


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Not sure which bit; they'd both be nice
> 
> Well, it will be particularly nice if HDR10+ actually takes off. Dolby are being such a bunch of >expletive deleted< with DV.
> Hopefully we will see Lumagen soon on the HDR10+ adopters list:
> https://hdr10plus.org/current-adopters/
> From what I can see the "join the club" fees for HDR10+ are so minimal that you could consider them token.
> It's not much of a title list yet though... Can only hope I guess.
> 
> The auto aspect niggles are just "getting on my wick" a bit now... It has been a long time since this was first addd to the 20xx product and it is still pretty patchy in use. Everything else about the Pro basically works for me now in my setup.
> 
> I've got an electric mask screen with top / bottom masks and there are two setups I'd like to put in place (16:9 full screen with automatic masking down to content size, and 2.4 CIH with auto zooming) and it seems neither could be made to work robustly with the detection as it stands. It looks like perhaps there is encoding noise present in a lot of scope content which puts just above black pixels in the black bars (perhaps) - so maybe it just needs a tweak of the thresholds. It would also be really nice if the delays which have changed over time but always been hard coded became user facing.
> 
> A bit of a question on the setup of the first of those; if I have the screen set to 1.78:1 and auto-aspect enabled, when 2.35 or other aspect ratio content is displayed it will cause the content to zoom to fill the 16:9 height (if it detects the bars correctly). How can I make the Radiance detect the aspect ratio change but not actually scale the image? I'm not sure the options available would allow me to report the aspect of the content to a control system but not actually apply any scaling to the image. Anyone else set this up?


Just to add: I also would like to see an update on the auto-aspect feature.
I do also believe it isn't that much of a challenge  compared to anything HDR related


----------



## Kris Deering

dlinsley said:


> I've preordered the JVC RS3000 projector and am thinking of using the Paladin DCR with it for more brightness in scope HDR. To simplify installation, I'd just leave it in place. Presumably auto-aspect is a pain with the likes of Nolan's movies in a fixed lens system? I guess you get to see all of the frame, as intended, but you shrink then expand back?


You have two options. Just run the movie in scope and sacrifice the extra info for those scenes (this is what I do) or watch the movie in 16x9 mode and have black bars for the scenes without the extra information. There is a thread in the CIH forum that talks about movies with this issue and if they are "safe" for 2.35 playback with the extra info cropped off. I think there is only like one or two that are not composed for safe 2.35 playback.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Dolby are being such a bunch of >expletive deleted< with DV.


Not sure what you mean by this comment. What is the issue with Dolby?

If you think them charging companies to use DV is bad, why? They've spent YEARS developing HDR for the market, why should they give it away? The only reason we even have HDR10 is because Dolby decided to give them something that they could use, despite it being severely limited in its ability. But I see no issue at all with Dolby wanting to make a return on investment for years of work making HDR work right. 

I'm bummed that they haven't supported the consumer projection market yet, but it is such a tiny fraction of the market compared to flat panels and has such large limitations and variances in playback level that it would require a lot of work that they may not feel would be warranted with the return. Or maybe they'll get to it after they've got things more locked down on the flat panel market.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure what you mean by this comment. What is the issue with Dolby?
> 
> If you think them charging companies to use DV is bad, why? They've spent YEARS developing HDR for the market, why should they give it away? The only reason we even have HDR10 is because Dolby decided to give them something that they could use, despite it being severely limited in its ability. But I see no issue at all with Dolby wanting to make a return on investment for years of work making HDR work right.
> 
> I'm bummed that they haven't supported the consumer projection market yet, but it is such a tiny fraction of the market compared to flat panels and has such large limitations and variances in playback level that it would require a lot of work that they may not feel would be warranted with the return. Or maybe they'll get to it after they've got things more locked down on the flat panel market.


There's nothing wrong with charging for something; however it seems whole sectors of the market are being kept out of the tech for unclear reasons.

Some not-that-coded messages in the Accupel thread would imply they're not exactly being helpful in getting support into those products ( https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-...-desktop-firmware-updates-2.html#post56578242 ) leaving I think only one pattern generator for calibration purposes. 
Maybe it is just a money thing, who knows. 

There shouldn't be any good reason why the technology couldn't be used for projection. It's not like we're talking massive differences; an OLED set can probably only achieve 2-3x the colour luminance of my own JVC PJ in high lamp. But it seems the way in which Dolby Vision is being made available as a technology to adopters seems to make it very hard for this to happen. 

What we have at the moment is a pretty dysfunctional market for HDR techs it seems, and I believe this is perhaps because Dolby don't feel any outside pressure to do better. HDR10+ if it could get a foothold of some sorts might make them shift their behaviour a bit.


----------



## thrang

So my foray into the hybrid IM approach may have concluded, thanks to Kris Deering.

Kris and I spent a good amount of time on the phone reviewing where I was at with both the Sony 5000 and Radiance settings, along with the specifics of my overall setup. Kris then suggested a number of changes, some minor, many more significant, in both the projector and processor.

Summed, the changes are now delivering a very impressive SDR2020 output from my setup, to the point I do not feel I have the need to return to the hybrid approach.

Every set-up is different of course, so it’s quite difficult to share specific values as some standard candle But changes were made in laser level, contrast, and contrast enhancer in the Sony, and max nits, ratio, shape, transition, and gamma in the Radiance.

One suggestion I’ve not yet implemented yet is disabling the CMS completely, as Kris feels the 5000 is accurate enough to not need it. He may be correct, but to my eye, the existing CMS performed previously improves the image in terms of accuracy, saturation, and peak color brightness. But it takes time to evaluate a lot of content to make a final determination.

And while Kris suggested max laser level, I am more the satisfied with 90% at the moment. But since so many settings are interrelated, I may end up boosting that as I experiment with values around the reference points from Kris.

So a big thanks to Kris for his time, goodwill, and great demeanor! We covered a lot of other ground about the industry as well, and some people common to our circles. It has been an illuminating few days, and I haven’t felt this good about the video portion of my system in a while.


----------



## SJHT

Please share at least your IM settings and max nits. Kris has posted them in the past but wondered what you have them set at. I have my Ken W calibration settings in two of my memories, but play around with the rest. Lol. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> So my foray into the hybrid IM approach may have concluded, thanks to Kris Deering.
> 
> Kris and I spent a good amount of time on the phone reviewing where I was at with both the Sony 5000 and Radiance settings, along with the specifics of my overall setup. Kris then suggested a number of changes, some minor, many more significant, in both the projector and processor.
> 
> Summed, the changes are now delivering a very impressive SDR2020 output from my setup, to the point I do not feel I have the need to return to the hybrid approach.
> 
> Every set-up is different of course, so it’s quite difficult to share specific values as some standard candle But changes were made in laser level, contrast, and contrast enhancer in the Sony, and max nits, ratio, shape, transition, and gamma in the Radiance.
> 
> One suggestion I’ve not yet implemented yet is disabling the CMS completely, as Kris feels the 5000 is accurate enough to not need it. He may be correct, but to my eye, the existing CMS performed previously improves the image in terms of accuracy, saturation, and peak color brightness. But it takes time to evaluate a lot of content to make a final determination.
> 
> And while Kris suggested max laser level, I am more the satisfied with 90% at the moment. But since so many settings are interrelated, I may end up boosting that as I experiment with values around the reference points from Kris.
> 
> So a big thanks to Kris for his time, goodwill, and great demeanor! We covered a lot of other ground about the industry as well, and some people common to our circles. It has been an illuminating few days, and I haven’t felt this good about the video portion of my system in a while.


Glad I could help! I'm sure we could have reached an even better result with me out there for a full calibration, but I'm glad the changes made a difference. Maybe I'll make it out there at some point!


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Please share at least your IM settings and max nits. Kris has posted them in the past but wondered what you have them set at. I have my Ken W calibration settings in two of my memories, but play around with the rest. Lol. Thanks. SJ


There is a small chance I may make it out your way by year's end. Not sure if you'd be interested in me doing a calibration/dial in while I'm there. Shoot me a PM if that is something you'd be interested in.


----------



## Kris Deering

Been working with Lumagen on some new changes that I think you'll be seeing real soon. They will nearly eliminate any issue we have now with bad or astray metadata. I wasn't always happy with the way the Radiance would go with some metadata combinations and now that will be resolved. Makes having to tweak MaxCLL using special codes a thing of the past. 

Next step after that is also being worked and I'm excited to see how that will go too. Jim and company are definitely taking a great product and making it even better!!


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Glad I could help! I'm sure we could have reached an even better result with me out there for a full calibration, but I'm glad the changes made a difference. Maybe I'll make it out there at some point!


Yes, if not for a calibration, at least for a movie, burger, and beer!


----------



## thrang

And here are the obligatory useless photos...


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Been working with Lumagen on some new changes that I think you'll be seeing real soon. They will nearly eliminate any issue we have now with bad or astray metadata. I wasn't always happy with the way the Radiance would go with some metadata combinations and now that will be resolved. Makes having to tweak MaxCLL using special codes a thing of the past.
> 
> Next step after that is also being worked and I'm excited to see how that will go too. Jim and company are definitely taking a great product and making it even better!!


Hopefully there will be rolled up in the update a way to stop it breaking (audio glitch plus HDR intensity band jump on fixed interval coincident with metadata update) with so much of the Netflix AppleTV HDR content due to the periodic HDR metadata updates these streams do. I'm sure it is probably Netflix or Apple's fault to some extent but chances of getting them to do anything about it are next to zero it seems (I've tried).


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> Hopefully there will be rolled up in the update a way to stop it breaking (audio glitch plus HDR intensity band jump on fixed interval coincident with metadata update) with so much of the Netflix AppleTV HDR content due to the periodic HDR metadata updates these streams do. I'm sure it is probably Netflix or Apple's fault to some extent but chances of getting them to do anything about it are next to zero it seems (I've tried).


It should fix that by default, if I am correct in assuming Kris is referring to the inbuilt Dynamic IM system based on frame read ahead and APL assessment - that Jim mentioned some time ago - rather than rely on any metadata. It would mean the AppleTV/Netflix could refresh the metadata as much as they like, the Radiance would ignore it, and base IM on the incoming physical video frames only (I assume).


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Been working with Lumagen on some new changes that I think you'll be seeing real soon. They will nearly eliminate any issue we have now with bad or astray metadata. I wasn't always happy with the way the Radiance would go with some metadata combinations and now that will be resolved. Makes having to tweak MaxCLL using special codes a thing of the past.
> 
> Next step after that is also being worked and I'm excited to see how that will go too. Jim and company are definitely taking a great product and making it even better!!


Great news Kris, I've been excited about the possibility of this since Jim mentioned it. Do we have a possible release timescale?

Have you noticed a significant improvement in the tone mapping going from I'm based on static metadata vs dynamic frame-by-frame assessment (I'm assuming its doing it frame-by-frame?)?


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> It should fix that by default, if I am correct in assuming Kris is referring to the inbuilt Dynamic IM system based on frame read ahead and APL assessment - that Jim mentioned some time ago - rather than rely on any metadata. It would mean the AppleTV/Netflix could refresh the metadata as much as they like, the Radiance would ignore it, and base IM on the incoming physical video frames only (I assume).


Hopefully, fingers crossed. Looking forward to it. Got lots of HDR queued up at Netflix that I've been avoiding watching until there is something workable.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Hopefully there will be rolled up in the update a way to stop it breaking (audio glitch plus HDR intensity band jump on fixed interval coincident with metadata update) with so much of the Netflix AppleTV HDR content due to the periodic HDR metadata updates these streams do. I'm sure it is probably Netflix or Apple's fault to some extent but chances of getting them to do anything about it are next to zero it seems (I've tried).


Not sure if this update will help with the ATV4K woes. That device seems like a bag of hurt when it comes to doing HDR properly.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> Great news Kris, I've been excited about the possibility of this since Jim mentioned it. Do we have a possible release timescale?
> 
> Have you noticed a significant improvement in the tone mapping going from I'm based on static metadata vs dynamic frame-by-frame assessment (I'm assuming its doing it frame-by-frame?)?


This isn't the eventual frame by frame tone mapping. They are still working on that, but we're still a little way away I believe. This still relies on metadata, but how it handles that metadata is different now and IMHO a better solution for getting the best from the content you're playing. Eliminates nearly every problem disc I've used when it comes to it.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> This isn't the eventual frame by frame tone mapping. They are still working on that, but we're still a little way away I believe. This still relies on metadata, but how it handles that metadata is different now and IMHO a better solution for getting the best from the content you're playing. Eliminates nearly every problem disc I've used when it comes to it.


Oh OK, thanks for confirming Kris. Are you able to elaborate how it differs? Are you referring to titles that have a relatively high MaxCCL but a comparatively low MaxFALL?


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure if this update will help with the ATV4K woes. That device seems like a bag of hurt when it comes to doing HDR properly.


Not sure if this is something else I have to thank Dolby for given the streams are all DV and then converted... but I think I'll lay this on Apple / Netflix for now.
I think it would work much better (probably quite acceptably) if there was an option to just be able to force the HDR profile used for an input, making it ignore the metadata. At the moment I think the only fix is the magic menu 0533 command which doesn't persist for the input - unless I'm missing some trick?


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> Oh OK, thanks for confirming Kris. Are you able to elaborate how it differs? Are you referring to titles that have a relatively high MaxCCL but a comparatively low MaxFALL?


A couple things have been addressed. In the past, if MaxCLL was greater than the mastering display, the Lumagen would use an average of the two for its tone map. So a title like Mad Max that has a MaxCLL of like 9900 and a display max of 4000 would tone map to around 7000ish which is really high for a movie that may only have a few instances of pixels that go anywhere near that high. Since the mastering displays don't tone map, any pixel above that max would have been clipped in mastering, so now if MaxCLL exceeds the mastering max, the Lumagen just uses the mastering max (so for like Mad Max, it would be 4000). This is actually a pretty common problem on both Sony and Warner titles.

The next one is titles with a MaxCLL of 0. In the past the Radiance would use the Mastering Max, but all the titles that have a 0 for MaxCLL and 4000 for mastering max look really bad (and I've verified by insiders and others that their real MaxCLL is more in line with 1000, so the Radiance now defaults to 1100 for these titles, regardless. You can change the default for this setting though in the input options under the HDR settings. If you take a title like Sicario and test the opening sequence before and after this update, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. 

These updates, coupled with some other little things in the background, should make it where it is VERY rare that the Radiance will use the wrong tone map or you'll get a result that looks wrong. It isn't frame by frame yet, but I think it will go a long way.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

thrang said:


> And here are the obligatory useless photos...


Just love them superb quality, is that via 5000ES?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Kris Deering said:


> A couple things have been addressed. In the past, if MaxCLL was greater than the mastering display, the Lumagen would use an average of the two for its tone map. So a title like Mad Max that has a MaxCLL of like 9900 and a display max of 4000 would tone map to around 7000ish which is really high for a movie that may only have a few instances of pixels that go anywhere near that high. Since the mastering displays don't tone map, any pixel above that max would have been clipped in mastering, so now if MaxCLL exceeds the mastering max, the Lumagen just uses the mastering max (so for like Mad Max, it would be 4000). This is actually a pretty common problem on both Sony and Warner titles.
> 
> The next one is titles with a MaxCLL of 0. In the past the Radiance would use the Mastering Max, but all the titles that have a 0 for MaxCLL and 4000 for mastering max look really bad (and I've verified by insiders and others that their real MaxCLL is more in line with 1000, so the Radiance now defaults to 1100 for these titles, regardless. You can change the default for this setting though in the input options under the HDR settings. If you take a title like Sicario and test the opening sequence before and after this update, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> These updates, coupled with some other little things in the background, should make it where it is VERY rare that the Radiance will use the wrong tone map or you'll get a result that looks wrong. It isn't frame by frame yet, but I think it will go a long way.


That explains why some of the titles are really washed out and the color wise its just not there at all, and where in vice versa some titles just throws outstanding image. Thank you for that effort Kris.


----------



## thrang

SJHT said:


> Please share at least your IM settings and max nits. Kris has posted them in the past but wondered what you have them set at. I have my Ken W calibration settings in two of my memories, but play around with the rest. Lol. Thanks. SJ


Max Nits 300

IM Settings (top to bottom)

>2000
-23, 3, 11, 6, 2, )


----------



## thrang

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Just love them superb quality, is that via 5000ES?


Yes, love that thing!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

That's the same movie but via vw760es and Lumagen Pro calibrated via LightSpace:










































































thrang said:


> Yes, love that thing!
> 
> Those are also photos from the new iPhone XSMax, and I think the AutoHDR feature goes a long way to improving screen shots without a lot of fuss. Its still not perfect, occasionally some low and high end crush, and sometimes a little color shift, but really a helluva lot better than anything before. The camera tech in that phone is phenomenal for many scenarios...


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

@SoulOfUniverse

Great shots...yes, I’d love to get a Lighspace cal, but almost no one does them, and the one quote I got was ludicrous.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

I'll do a full write up on how to very soon results are superb


thrang said:


> @SoulOfUniverse
> 
> Great shots...yes, I’d love to get a Lighspace cal, but almost no one does them, and the one quote I got was ludicrous.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I'll do a full write up on how to very soon results are superb
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Write it for idiots. Then dumb it down from there...


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> @SoulOfUniverse
> 
> Great shots...yes, I’d love to get a Lighspace cal, but almost no one does them, and the one quote I got was ludicrous.


You should be able to get great results with Calman also, now you are using SDR2020 out of the Pro - getting a good clean 1D LUT/greyscale gets you 90% of the way there, and if your 5000ES is anything like my 760ES, a couple of clicks on the primaries within your 5000ES's CMS will probably give you excellent saturation tracking for the colour space. No real need for a 3D LUT or Lightspace if its proving that difficult to source.


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> You should be able to get great results with Calman also, now you are using SDR2020 out of the Pro - getting a good clean 1D LUT/greyscale gets you 90% of the way there, and if your 5000ES is anything like my 760ES, a couple of clicks on the primaries within your 5000ES's CMS will probably give you excellent saturation tracking for the colour space. No real need for a 3D LUT or Lightspace if its proving that difficult to source.


Perhaps, I think Kris feels the same - that the Sony's out-of-box color is accurate enough to not need a full blown CMS - just greyscale gamma, and primaries/secondaries if I understand him correctly...


----------



## Kris Deering

That has been my experience so far, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. I've found with both the Sony and JVC models that if you have gamma/grayscale and especially white point dialed in, their 2020 color modes are generally quite good. I just bought Lightspace a week ago but I've been swamped with other things so I won't get any chance to use it until next month.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Kris Deering said:


> That has been my experience so far, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. I've found with both the Sony and JVC models that if you have gamma/grayscale and especially white point dialed in, their 2020 color modes are generally quite good. I just bought Lightspace a week ago but I've been swamped with other things so I won't get any chance to use it until next month.


Lightspace is quite tricky to use as the workflow is completely different comparing to chromapure and calman. As I've promised I'm about to write a full document on how to - so it will save you a lot amount of time  Will be doing this probably next week.


----------



## thrang

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Lightspace is quite tricky to use as the workflow is completely different comparing to chromapure and calman. As I've promised I'm about to write a full document on how to - so it will save you a lot amount of time  Will be doing this probably next week.


Remember:

- write it for idiots
- then dumb it down
- and oh yes, incorporate lots of Lightspace settings screen shots!

thanks


----------



## thrang

Rather than muck up this thread further, I've posted some additional SDR2020 screen shots *here*


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 100118*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 100118*
Fix for an issue with Pro's hdmi output causing a Trinnov Altitude audio processor to switch some noisy relays unnecessarily for some sources even though they were not playing any audio. 
Added faint single pixel with adjustable brightness in upper left corner of solid black test pattern to keep laser projectors from turning off. 
Made some small improvements to calculation of src max for HDR. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## SoulOfUniverse

Mike does that one contain the fix for the input labels setting, then one I was testing in my app?


Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 100118*
> Fix for an issue with Pro's hdmi output causing a Trinnov Altitude audio processor to switch some noisy relays unnecessarily for some sources even though they were not playing any audio.
> Added faint single pixel with adjustable brightness in upper left corner of solid black test pattern to keep laser projectors from turning off.
> Made some small improvements to calculation of src max for HDR.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

It's been a while and I wanted to post an update on what we are working on for the Radiance Pro:

- As Kris Deering posted, for the 100118 release we implemented several of his suggestions for dealing with MaxCLL for HDR sources that fail to follow the spec and provide correct MaxCLL information. Kris' tested showed that we could change the defaults when the source fails to provide correct info. These changes improve the Radiance Pro tone mapping for these errant HDR titles.

- For a long time we have considered doing (optional) matrix based conversion from 709 to 2020 or 2020 to 709. This was to allow a 709 projector to look as good as possible for HDR material (using 2020 to 709) without a 3D LUT calibration, or to allow all material to be shown with the projector/TV in 2020 mode (using 709 to 2020). In either of these cases it would allow for faster switching as it eliminated the HDMI restart need for the 709 to/from 2020 change.

- Kris Deering recently suggested we add conversion from 2020 to P3 to make 3D calibrations better for projectors and TVs that had a Gamut at or near P3. Adding to the above conversion would allow all material to be shown as P3 again. One limitation for P3 is it is only defined for RGB, so output from the Pro would have to be RGB for any P3 mode. A positive is that since projectors and TVs often have a near P3 color space this simplifies 3D LUT calibration. Because of this I believe Calman will be able to do a good calibration to the P3 Colorspace. NOTE: HDR still comes in a 2020 container. A 2020 to P3 then converts the material to a P3 container. NOTE: I am told JVC projectors actually have a "P3 mode" and so can pay attention to the "HDMI Info frame P3 Flag" that would be set for this conversion. The conversion to P3 could still be used for other projectors and TVs.

- Kris' request for a P3 output mode pushed the matrix conversion feature to the top of the list. The next release (after 100118), we are adding matrix based conversion between color spaces. These are 709 to 2020, 2020 to 709, 709 to P3, and 2020 to P3. These will be optional. Using a matrix based conversion is better than using a 3D LUT since it is accurate for all data values where as the 3D LUT is a 17x17x17 piece-wise-linear approximation of the conversion and then only if you do the 3D LUT calibration successfully (for 2020 this has meant using Lightspace). If you decide to use the conversion to P3, a 3D LUT conversion to P3 is still recommended since it is generally not a supported format in projectors or TVs, but as I mentioned above I believe Calman, or Lightspace, and probably Chromapure, could do this P3 calibration.

- Some comments on Dolby Vision (DV) title issues on Netflix being converted by the AppleTV 4K. DV has dynamic meta data. However, the HDR10 specification calls for "static metadata." We designed to the HDR10 spec. The current implementation must do a lot of calculations when the MaxCLL changes. Since MaxCLL is not supposed to change during a program this is normally not an issue. However, the AppleTV 4k is violating the HDR10 spec when it converts DV titles and is changing metadata frequently. This causes issues with the current Radiance Pro releases.

- Next up after these color space conversions is dynamic tone mapping. However, due to the AppleTV 4k changing the metadata during the program, we will insert a half-step toward this. I have completed the algorithm to interpolate between the current "2500 nit" parameter set in the FPGA based on the MaxCLL. Patrick still needs to implement the FPGA and software for this, but this change allows the Pro to change the MaxCLL based transfer function by writing only a few registers in the FPGA. We believe this change will eliminate the issues caused by the AppleTV 4k changing the metadata when it shouldn't, and this is also a direct step toward dynamic tone mapping.

- Since the transfer function will change based on a weighted-average of the parameters for 2500 nits, rather than just switching between them, this will change the image to some degree. However, we believe since the transfer function will more accurately represent the MaxCLL value these minor changes with be improvements in the image. The worst case example at factory default for the crossover is a MaxCLL = 2500 nit movie versus the same movie coded as MaxCLL = 2501 nits. With current software these could look significantly different since they would use different parameter sets. After this change they would look essentially identical.

- Then it will be on to dynamic tone mapping which we hope to release this quarter.

- We still have PiP/PoP (for 444X units only), and edge enhancement on our plate, but it is looking like the first releases for these will be in 2019 Q1.

- Another "under the hood" feature we plan on is converting the entire pipeline to 12-bits or more. At this point the front end is 10-bits. The 10-bit front-end precision looks very good, and most of the pipeline is already 12-bits, but there may be some small visual improvements having the entire pipeline at 12-bits and higher. Patrick has some of this work done already, but we want to get the rest completed before adding it to a software release.


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Mike does that one contain the fix for the input labels setting, then one I was testing in my app?


I can confirm the RS-232 command to set input labels bug fix is in the 100118 release.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> I can confirm the RS-232 command to set input labels bug fix is in the 100118 release.


Thank you Jim, I'll amend changes in my app and will release an update as well.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> - For a long time we have considered doing (optional) matrix based conversion from 709 to 2020 or 2020 to 709. This was to allow a 709 projector to look as good as possible for HDR material (using 2020 to 709) without a 3D LUT calibration, or to allow all material to be shown with the projector/TV in 2020 mode (using 709 to 2020). In either of these cases it would allow for faster switching as it eliminated the HDMI restart need for the 709 to/from 2020 change.
> 
> - Kris Deering recently suggested we add conversion from 2020 to P3 to make 3D calibrations better for projectors and TVs that had a Gamut at or near P3. Adding to the above conversion would allow all material to be shown as P3 again. One limitation for P3 is it is only defined for RGB, so output from the Pro would have to be RGB for any P3 mode. A positive is that since projectors and TVs often have a near P3 color space this simplifies 3D LUT calibration. Because of this I believe Calman will be able to do a good calibration to the P3 Colorspace. NOTE: HDR still comes in a 2020 container. A 2020 to P3 then converts the material to a P3 container. NOTE: I am told JVC projectors actually have a "P3 mode" and so can pay attention to the "HDMI Info frame P3 Flag" that would be set for this conversion. The conversion to P3 could still be used for other projectors and TVs.


Great to read this update Jim, some very exciting stuff in here. Still wrapping my head around this, but if I understand correctly, can I just clarify:

So if you calibrate to a P3 3DLUT, the Pro will convert the incoming 2020 to P3 and then pass through the 3DLUT. Will there then be the option to either convert back to 2020 4:2:2 or send as P3 RGB? What I'm thinking here is whilst RGB is fine for 24p content, as it can remains at 10/12bits, will 60p content sent as RGB not be forced down to 8bits to fit in the HDMI bandwidth?

Do these changes mean that the Pro will now be able to process incoming 4:4:4 signals without sub-sampling to 4:2:2, or does that require the full 12bit pipeline you mention?



jrp said:


> - Then it will be on to dynamic tone mapping which we hope to release this quarter.


Very much looking forward to this!



jrp said:


> edge enhancement on our plate, but it is looking like the first releases for these will be in 2019 Q1.


Just out of interest (and obviously without giving away any IP) are you working on new alogrithms for this, or just porting over what you had on the 20XX/21XX series?


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Just out of interest (and obviously without giving away any IP) are you working on new alogrithms for this, or just porting over what you had on the 20XX/21XX series?


I don't think it can be a port; there's nothing to port. From what I understand this functionality lived in the bought-in Gennum VXP processor chip, which is a black box device. Any new edge enhancement is going to have to be a pure FPGA implementation. The reason Darbee came over from the previous range was that was done in FPGA originally (and obviously still is).

In previous posts further up somewhere there was talk of bought-in FPGA IP blocks vs inhouse developed - but I can't remember which specific area of functionality that was.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> It's been a while and I wanted to post an update on what we are working on for the Radiance Pro:
> 
> 
> - Then it will be on to dynamic tone mapping which we hope to release this quarter.
> 
> I am really looking forward to this being implemented.
> 
> Kudos to Kris Deering for working so closely with Lumagen that is a big bonus to both projector owners and Lumagen owners, thanks Kris


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the information on the further development of the Radiance Pro. 
About a year ago you mentioned that a new 257 point 1D LUT is planned in front of the 3D LUT.
Is this plan still available or was it given up?
Peter


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> 1) So if you calibrate to a P3 3DLUT, the Pro will convert the incoming 2020 to P3 and then pass through the 3DLUT. Will there then be the option to either convert back to 2020 4:2:2 or send as P3 RGB? What I'm thinking here is whilst RGB is fine for 24p content, as it can remains at 10/12bits, will 60p content sent as RGB not be forced down to 8bits to fit in the HDMI bandwidth?
> 
> 2) Do these changes mean that the Pro will now be able to process incoming 4:4:4 signals without sub-sampling to 4:2:2, or does that require the full 12bit pipeline you mention?
> 
> 3) Just out of interest (and obviously without giving away any IP) are you working on new algorithms for this, or just porting over what you had on the 20XX/21XX series?


For 1): If you select conversion to P3 using the new matrix conversion it will stay in P3 for output. It would not make sense to then convert to 2020, as in that case you should never have converted to P3.

While P3 is only defined for RGB, the Pro will not enforce this. You can select a 4:2:2 12-bit output mode and the conversion to P3 at the same time. Since there is no 4:2:2 color space defined for P3, you would then likely have to do a 3D LUT calibration. If your projector has a P3RGB mode (like some JVC's do), then you would not be forced to do a 3D LUT calibration if you set the output to RGB (what the JVC specifies for P3 input).

For 2): For the 12-bit upgrade, we are working on - but *not* committing to - make the processing blocks and frame buffer 4:4:4. Note that for 4k60, this limits video to 8-bit data. For 4k24, the Pro could accept deep-color 4:4:4, but our output chip does not support 4:4:4 or RGB deep color at 4k24. Note that with the Pro's dithering on its output having been recently improved even further, we are to the point where I think 8-bits looks as good as 12-bits even for HDR (using the Pro for tone mapping and output HDR in a SDR container). In our test cases we we did not see a difference, but since we have not looked at everything there might be cases where there is a very slight visual difference. However, if there is a small difference I think it would be so small as to be inconsequential.

For 3): As pointed out already, the edge enhancement in earlier Radiance models was done in the GF9450 (a.k.a. Gennum chip). We will likely use public domain algorithms for edge enhancement in the Pro. We have looked into this but need more work to decide what to do that gives a reasonable enhancement without adding too many artifacts and is sized right to fit in our FPGA gate budget.


----------



## jrp

OMARDRIS said:


> About a year ago you mentioned that a new 257 point 1D LUT is planned in front of the 3D LUT. Is this plan still available or was it given up?
> Peter


In my stream of consciousness post I did not think to put this in. So thanks for asking.

Yes, we still plan a 257 point 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT. This will be nice to have, but I currently believe the items I listed are higher priority than this feature. So I think it will be at least 2019 Q2 before we can get to this.


----------



## jrp

I would like to let everyone know that Lumagen is joining a new organization, the Professional Video Alliance (PVA). The PVA is dedicated to improving video by selection of the right products, and using calibration to maximize video quality.

There will be calibration training classes in multiple locations each year. The one that I want to mention here is in Las Vegas after CES on January 12 to 13, 2019. The reason I mention this particular class here is that on the evening of the 12th, I will be doing a three hour class on setup and calibration using the Radiance Pro.

I believe there is a $100 charge for my class, but Lumagen will provide a $250 (retail) coupon toward the purchase of any Radiance Pro processor for everyone who attends the class. I also believe this is independent of the two day advanced calibration class it is linked with. So you can attend just the Lumagen training (check with the PVA to be certain). Hopefully you can learn some Radiance Pro setup and calibration, and make a return on your investment of money and time when you use the coupon. Class size is limited and I believe priority may go to those attending the two day advanced calibration class. Hopefully room seating and interested party count match.

Here is a link to the PVA training page:

https://professionalvideoalliance.com/launch/training/

Connect with the PVA for additional information on the advance calibration class and the Lumagen training.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> I would like to let everyone know that Lumagen is joining a new organization, the Professional Video Alliance (PVA). The PVA is dedicated to improving video by selection of the right products, and using calibration to maximize video quality.
> 
> There will be calibration training classes in multiple locations each year. The one that I want to mention here is in Las Vegas after CES on January 12 to 13, 2019. The reason I mention this particular class here is that on the evening of the 12th, I will be doing a three hour class on setup and calibration using the Radiance Pro.
> 
> I believe there is a $100 charge for my class, but Lumagen will provide a $250 (retail) coupon toward the purchase of any Radiance Pro processor for everyone who attends the class. I also believe this is independent of the two day advanced calibration class it is linked with. So you can attend just the Lumagen training (check with the PVA to be certain). Hopefully you can learn some Radiance Pro setup and calibration, and make a return on your investment of money and time when you use the coupon. Class size is limited and I believe priority may go to those attending the two day advanced calibration class. Hopefully room seating and interested party count match.
> 
> Here is a link to the PVA training page:
> 
> https://professionalvideoalliance.com/launch/training/
> 
> Connect with the PVA for additional information on the advance calibration class and the Lumagen training.


Hi Jim, can you attend London to do the courses as well? ) Us folks based in UK, would love to visit your trainings as well.


----------



## Gregg Loewen

Hi guys!!

If you attend the 2 day advanced PVA Calibration training in Las Vegas on January 12 and 13th, you can attend the 3 hour Lumagen training at NO COST and ALSO receive the $250 Lumagen product credit. 

Yes, we plan on offering this Lumagen course offering at future PVA Video Training Classes. 

Gregg Loewen


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim, can you attend London to do the courses as well? ) Us folks based in UK, would love to visit your trainings as well.


Never say never, but I am not thinking I will get to London for a PVA class should one be scheduled (I did not see one on the list of classes).

However, I might be able to convince Gordon to do a class there and perhaps connect it with a PVA class. Gordon is certainly one of the most knowledgeable calibrators for Lumagen products and I will have prepared a class for the January PVA class slide set he could use.

Not sure if Gordon would be up for such a class, but I am sure he will see this and chime in either way (Gordon sorry for putting you on the spot).


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 100718*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 100718*
Adds P3 output colorspace option under *Output: CMS: Colorspace*. 
Added automatic conversion for going between 2020 and 601/709 colorspaces. 
This new capability defaults to "Off" when updating a current setup as the Pro's 3D Lut may have been set up to do the conversion (which was the only way to do it prior to this update). 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Mike can you confirm please, so when ColorSpace is set to p3, we have to recalibrate 3d Lut to have targeted to sci p3, for instance in LightSpace, and not like rec2020 with gamma target 2.4 as before?


Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 100718*
> Adds P3 output colorspace option under Output: CMS: Colorspace.
> Added automatic conversion for going between 2020 and 601/709 colorspaces.
> This new capability defaults to "Off" when updating a current setup as the Pro's 3D Lut may have been set up to do the conversion (which was the only way to do it prior to this update).
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Mike can you confirm please, so when ColorSpace is set to p3, we have to recalibrate 3d Lut to have targeted to sci p3, for instance in LightSpace, and not like rec2020 with gamma target 2.4 as before?
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


I'm just posting the FW update info to help people.

I have no other knowledge about the firmware. JRP looks like he is super engaged on AVS now, so hopefully he'll answer.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Thank you Mike


Mike_WI said:


> I'm just posting the FW update info to help people.
> 
> I have no other knowledge about the firmware. JRP looks like he is super engaged on AVS now, so hopefully he'll answer.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Roland Janus

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 100718*
> Adds P3 output colorspace option under *Output: CMS: Colorspace*.
> Added automatic conversion for going between 2020 and 601/709 colorspaces.
> This new capability defaults to "Off" when updating a current setup as the Pro's 3D Lut may have been set up to do the conversion (which was the only way to do it prior to this update).
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


 @Jim: So what does that mean for the VPL-VW5000?

With that firmware on a nvidia shield the only output option in the shield is RGB 709 8bit, everything else is grayed out.
when playing HDR content I get this:
In RGB 709, Out 422 SDR709, it does not switch to HDR at all, I guess that's because the shield does not recognize the display modes available anymore.
Going back to prev. version.

-roland


----------



## rolldog

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure if this update will help with the ATV4K woes. That device seems like a bag of hurt when it comes to doing HDR properly.


I'm glad I came to this thread! I've been having issues enabling HDR on my Apple TV 4k. Whenever switching to HDR, the ATV4k comes to a screen to keep the settings, but if you don't select it within a specific period of time, it automatically switches back to SDR. Since my ATV4K is going through my Control4 matrix, a Marantz AV8805, and a Lumagen Radiance Pro before reaching my JVC RS4500K, I wasn't sure if I was having a handshake problem along the line somewhere, a component problem, or if the Apple TV 4k just doesn't work in HDR with the components I'm using. I was able to use the Apple TV 4k in HDR before iOS12 was rolled out, but ever since, I haven't been able to get a video signal before it switched back to SDR. From what it sounds like, this is an issue with the Apple TV 4k. If this is the case, you've just saved me a lot of time/money trying to diagnose this issue.

Does anyone have problems using HDR on a Roku Ultra? If not, I might swap the Apple TV out with my Roku so I can at least watch some kind of streaming HDR content. I haven't had any issues watching content with my Oppo, which is setup the same way as my Apple TV, but sometimes that immediate gratification gets the best of me so I'll rent, or buy, a movie instead of buying the UHD Blu-ray and waiting for it to arrive, especially when my kids want to watch a movie.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

I've used Roku 4k pro and apple 4k, Apple has issues with switching between HDR and SDR content, then I stopped at Roku 4k, but after Roku I've switched to zx9s and it is my main video source and doesn't have any issues at all


rolldog said:


> I'm glad I came to this thread! I've been having issues enabling HDR on my Apple TV 4k. Whenever switching to HDR, the ATV4k comes to a screen to keep the settings, but if you don't select it within a specific period of time, it automatically switches back to SDR. Since my ATV4K is going through my Control4 matrix, a Marantz AV8805, and a Lumagen Radiance Pro before reaching my JVC RS4500K, I wasn't sure if I was having a handshake problem along the line somewhere, a component problem, or if the Apple TV 4k just doesn't work in HDR with the components I'm using. I was able to use the Apple TV 4k in HDR before iOS12 was rolled out, but ever since, I haven't been able to get a video signal before it switched back to SDR. From what it sounds like, this is an issue with the Apple TV 4k. If this is the case, you've just saved me a lot of time/money trying to diagnose this issue.
> 
> Does anyone have problems using HDR on a Roku Ultra? If not, I might swap the Apple TV out with my Roku so I can at least watch some kind of streaming HDR content. I haven't had any issues watching content with my Oppo, which is setup the same way as my Apple TV, but sometimes that immediate gratification gets the best of me so I'll rent, or buy, a movie instead of buying the UHD Blu-ray and waiting for it to arrive, especially when my kids want to watch a movie.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> I'm glad I came to this thread! I've been having issues enabling HDR on my Apple TV 4k. Whenever switching to HDR, the ATV4k comes to a screen to keep the settings, but if you don't select it within a specific period of time, it automatically switches back to SDR. Since my ATV4K is going through my Control4 matrix, a Marantz AV8805, and a Lumagen Radiance Pro before reaching my JVC RS4500K, I wasn't sure if I was having a handshake problem along the line somewhere, a component problem, or if the Apple TV 4k just doesn't work in HDR with the components I'm using. I was able to use the Apple TV 4k in HDR before iOS12 was rolled out, but ever since, I haven't been able to get a video signal before it switched back to SDR. From what it sounds like, this is an issue with the Apple TV 4k. If this is the case, you've just saved me a lot of time/money trying to diagnose this issue.
> 
> Does anyone have problems using HDR on a Roku Ultra? If not, I might swap the Apple TV out with my Roku so I can at least watch some kind of streaming HDR content. I haven't had any issues watching content with my Oppo, which is setup the same way as my Apple TV, but sometimes that immediate gratification gets the best of me so I'll rent, or buy, a movie instead of buying the UHD Blu-ray and waiting for it to arrive, especially when my kids want to watch a movie.


That just sounds like your video chain is a bit too long and you can't get an image to select the appropriate mode... In any case, if you watch Netflix I don't think it is really feasible to use the ATV4K in HDR via the Lumagen at the moment; it is too hit and miss and becomes distracting trying to work out if you need to apply the magic keypresses to stop the video level jumping and audio glitching due to the dodgy metadata. I don't have any experience of the content in Apple's own store, I have a feeling that might be better behaved.

For what it is worth the Netflix player in the Sony X800 player which I have seems better behaved with respect to HDR. However it has a really annoying habit of switching refresh rates for the little trailers embedded in the UI which makes browsing the UI really painful on a JVC PJ with slow syncs.

I guess the Kaleidescape units aren't a bad option for those looking for robust "instant gratification", a little pricey for mere mortals but we've blown how much on a VP?!


----------



## bobof

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I've used Roku 4k pro and apple 4k, Apple has issues with switching between HDR and SDR content, then I stopped at Roku 4k, but after Roku I've switched to zx9s and it is my main video source and doesn't have any issues at all


Do you have access to any "non ripped" HDR content on the ZX9S?


----------



## dinamigym

bobof said:


> That just sounds like your video chain is a bit too long and you can't get an image to select the appropriate mode... In any case, if you watch Netflix I don't think it is really feasible to use the ATV4K in HDR via the Lumagen at the moment; it is too hit and miss and becomes distracting trying to work out if you need to apply the magic keypresses to stop the video level jumping and audio glitching due to the dodgy metadata. I don't have any experience of the content in Apple's own store, I have a feeling that might be better behaved.
> 
> 
> 
> For what it is worth the Netflix player in the Sony X800 player which I have seems better behaved with respect to HDR. However it has a really annoying habit of switching refresh rates for the little trailers embedded in the UI which makes browsing the UI really painful on a JVC PJ with slow syncs.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the Kaleidescape units aren't a bad option for those looking for robust "instant gratification", a little pricey for mere mortals but we've blown how much on a VP?!




Kaleidescape works perfect! My ATV4k is pretty much useless since latest Apple firmware. My video chain is ATV4k - Lumagen - Sony 5000. Worked fine before the Apple firmware update so I have to blame that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SoulOfUniverse

No, I don't watch stream services like Netflix or Amazon, I download all the content from my reliable sources all in HDR best quality


bobof said:


> Do you have access to any "non ripped" HDR content on the ZX9S?


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## bobof

SoulOfUniverse said:


> No, I don't watch stream services like Netflix or Amazon, I download all the content from my reliable sources all in HDR best quality


Sure, I guess it is of little help to the OP though in that case as they were talking about renting / buying content.

These days there's much more HDR content coming out of Netflix than the whole of Hollywood pretty much (not saying anything about the quality though!) so it's worth trying to get something viable setup. 

I'm intrigued about the issues folk are seeing switching HDR/SDR though on the ATV4K. I've not seen any problems with that side of it in my own setup (ATV4K -> 18G in on 4242 -> Atlona 18G HDBT -> JVC DLA-X7900) - it seems to do what you ask it to do with respect to the various menu options.


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## rolldog

For now, if I want to watch 4k HDR content, I'll use the built-in apps on my LG W7, which is in my living room hooked up to my Anthem, but I'm pretty much limited in my media room where my JVC RS4500K is hooked up. I had a Roku Ultra hooked up to the HDMI IN on the Oppo, but swapped it out for the Apple TV since I thought my daughters would have an easier time navigating the Apple TV since they both use iPhones. The Apple TV worked fine until the last firmware update. Now it's just a piece of garbage. I've been thinking about buying a Kaleidescape, but lately I've just been trying to figure out what the problem was. Now that I know it's the Apple TV, I'm seriously going to consider another source for content, and I'd like to find a source that works through my audio/video matrix since every TV in my house is 4k HDR. I can always use the apps built into the TV, but if I do this, I'll have to use the TV's internal speakers in some rooms. 

For now, I guess I'll swap out the Apple TV with the Roku. I've considered getting a new UHD blu-ray player, but I really don't want to give up my Oppo.


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## SoulOfUniverse

Yes agree mate, this was around 5 months ago, therefore Apple could have released firmware fixing it , the issue I had it didn't switch automatically between HDR and SDR content, where Roku worked fine, apart from Amazon service HDR didn't switch to at all, stayed as sdr2020


bobof said:


> Sure, I guess it is of little help to the OP though in that case as they were talking about renting / buying content.
> 
> These days there's much more HDR content coming out of Netflix than the whole of Hollywood pretty much (not saying anything about the quality though!) so it's worth trying to get something viable setup.
> 
> I'm intrigued about the issues folk are seeing switching HDR/SDR though on the ATV4K. I've not seen any problems with that side of it in my own setup (ATV4K -> 18G in on 4242 -> Atlona 18G HDBT -> JVC DLA-X7900) - it seems to do what you ask it to do with respect to the various menu options.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> That just sounds like your video chain is a bit too long and you can't get an image to select the appropriate mode... In any case, if you watch Netflix I don't think it is really feasible to use the ATV4K in HDR via the Lumagen at the moment; it is too hit and miss and becomes distracting trying to work out if you need to apply the magic keypresses to stop the video level jumping and audio glitching due to the dodgy metadata. I don't have any experience of the content in Apple's own store, I have a feeling that might be better behaved.
> 
> For what it is worth the Netflix player in the Sony X800 player which I have seems better behaved with respect to HDR. However it has a really annoying habit of switching refresh rates for the little trailers embedded in the UI which makes browsing the UI really painful on a JVC PJ with slow syncs.
> 
> I guess the Kaleidescape units aren't a bad option for those looking for robust "instant gratification", a little pricey for mere mortals but we've blown how much on a VP?!


I have the Radiance Pro with a Sony VW5000 projector. I've been using a Roku Ultra 4k instead of my Amazon Fire 4k, because I find the Roku can be set to output the native refresh rate which looks best videowise whereas the Amazon Fire 4k can't do this. I have had no problems obtaining video with HDR content with either player. Ken Whitcomb setup my video so that the Radiance Pro outputs HDR in a btr.2020 container. Appple TV 4k is set to video 4k60 SDR (and on any HDR then automatically outputs HDR).

I just got an Apple TV 4k (IOS12.0.1) the other day and so far, watched a number of 4k HDR tv shows and also no issue obtaining video with HDR content.

Just lucky I guess?


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I have the Radiance Pro with a Sony VW5000 projector. I've been using a Roku Ultra 4k instead of my Amazon Fire 4k, because I find the Roku can be set to output the native refresh rate which looks best videowise whereas the Amazon Fire 4k can't do this. I have had no problems obtaining video with HDR content with either player. Ken Whitcomb setup my video so that the Radiance Pro outputs HDR in a btr.2020 container. Appple TV 4k is set to video 4k60 SDR (and on any HDR then automatically outputs HDR).
> 
> I just got an Apple TV 4k (IOS12.0.1) the other day and so far, watched a number of 4k HDR tv shows and also no issue obtaining video with HDR content.
> 
> Just lucky I guess?


Likewise I don't get any issue obtaining video content, my issues are all around what Apple / Netflix are doing with HDR.

I guess you're only watching shows bought through the apple store, and not HDR content from Netflix? Are you using intensity mapping?


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## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> Likewise I don't get any issue obtaining video content, my issues are all around what Apple / Netflix are doing with HDR.
> 
> I guess you're only watching shows bought through the apple store, and not HDR content from Netflix? Are you using intensity mapping?


Yes Ken Whitcomb set this up via the Radiance Pro. Ijust watched Daredevil Season 3 in 4k HDR on Netflix (on Roku Ultra, but got Apple TV 4k and viewed it a bit and looked good), and Jack Ryan on Amazon Prime (on Apple TV 4k), of course using the Radiance Pro's intensity mapping as set by Ken Whitcomb, and looked excellent.


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Yes Ken Whitcomb set this up via the Radiance Pro. Ijust watched Daredevil Season 3 in 4k HDR on Netflix (on Roku Ultra, *but got Apple TV 4k and viewed it a bit and looked good*), and Jack Ryan on Amazon Prime (on Apple TV 4k), of course using the Radiance Pro's intensity mapping as set by Ken Whitcomb, and looked excellent.


Hrmph... the plot thickens...!
If you are able to detail how you have it set up that would be much appreciated. I've just had a look at Daredevil S03 on the ATV4K and it has the same issue with the metadata upsetting my Pro as configured - every 30s the audio drops out, and if you then check the debug screens you can see this co-incides with the metadata having been updated. 
If you have a moment it would be great to know if the AppleTV is outputting 4K HDR and what is then being output from the Lumagen. (a photo of the first two debug info screens from pressing OK would be super).


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

rolldog said:


> Is anyone using an Apple TV 4k with their 4500? I have one and had it set up in HDR mode, but ever since updating the iOS on the Apple TV 4k, I can't enable HDR mode. I'm trying to narrow down where my issue is. If anyone is using an Apple TV 4k, then you're probably aware that after enabling HDR mode it pops up a screen to select keep these settings, but to prevent someone from enabling HDR and not having compatible equipment, if you don't select "Keep these settings" within a specific time period, it automatically switches back to SDR mode. In my media room where my projector is setup, if I chose to watch content on the Apple TV 4k, the signal goes through my Control4 matrix, through my Marantz AV8805, through my Lumagen Radiance Pro, and finally to my 4500k, and since it takes some time for all the handshakes required going through all these components, the Apple TV 4k switches back to SDR before I even get a picture on my screen.
> 
> If anyone is using an Apple TV 4k in HDR mode on their RS4500, then I'll know it's not a bug in the latest iOS and then try to hook it up as a local device instead of going through my Control4 matrix to hopefully reduce the amount of time it takes to get an image. It was working fine before the update to iOS 12, so if anyone could confirm that they're using an Apple TV 4k in HDR mode, it would really help me narrow down where this problem is. The Lumagen Radiance Pro already adds some time to the video signal being displayed, but some tweaks were done on it when it was setup initially to reduce this time. I'm able to get an HDR signal from my Oppo, which is setup exactly like the Apple TV, and I'm able to get an HDR signal from my Xbox One X, which is setup locally and bypasses the matrix. If anyone can confirm if they're able to use an Apple TV 4k in HDR mode on their 4500, or not, I would greatly appreciate it.



If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k HDR then it will auto convert all SDR to HDR. This could be an issue with the settings you have in the Radiance Pro.

If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k SDR it will still for HDR programs output HDR for those programs only. This is what I do.

I also have Apple TV 4k and Roku Ultra 4k to output native refresh rate.


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k HDR then it will auto convert all SDR to HDR. This could be an issue with the settings you have in the Radiance Pro.
> 
> If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k SDR it will still for HDR programs output HDR for those programs only. This is what I do.


I have it set the second way. It switches fine between HDR and SDR at the appropriate time. Just this issue with the metadata causing the Pro heartache, regular as clockwork. I'm really intrigued that you're not seeing it which makes me think something is set up a bit different in your system.

My mistake earlier though - I haven't watched Daredevil so it launched straight into season 1!
Season 1 and Season 2 both seem to have the bogus metadata issue. Season 3 seems to have fixed metadata with MaxFALL / MaxCLL pegged at 4000 nits each. Much better, no playback issues with Season 3.

Can you try an episode from Season 1 or 2? I'm guessing you'll see the same issue as I've seen.

With any luck this means Netflix won't be turning out any more broken content...! I'm starting to think this is a Netflix mastering issue and not an Apple DV->HDR10 conversion issue.


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## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> Hrmph... the plot thickens...!
> If you are able to detail how you have it set up that would be much appreciated. I've just had a look at Daredevil S03 on the ATV4K and it has the same issue with the metadata upsetting my Pro as configured - every 30s the audio drops out, and if you then check the debug screens you can see this co-incides with the metadata having been updated.
> If you have a moment it would be great to know if the AppleTV is outputting 4K HDR and what is then being output from the Lumagen. (a photo of the first two debug info screens from pressing OK would be super).


My Radiance Pro info page shows incoming HDR from Apple TV 4k for 4k HDR programming, and shows 2020SDR output to my projector (this is how
Ken Whitcomb set it up for Radiance Pro intensity mapping).


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> I have it set the second way. It switches fine between HDR and SDR at the appropriate time. Just this issue with the metadata causing the Pro heartache, regular as clockwork. I'm really intrigued that you're not seeing it which makes me think something is set up a bit different in your system.
> 
> My mistake earlier though - I haven't watched Daredevil so it launched straight into season 1!
> Season 1 and Season 2 both seem to have the bogus metadata issue. Season 3 seems to have fixed metadata with MaxFALL / MaxCLL pegged at 4000 nits each. Much better, no playback issues with Season 3.
> 
> Can you try an episode from Season 1 or 2? I'm guessing you'll see the same issue as I've seen.
> 
> With any luck this means Netflix won't be turning out any more broken content...! I'm starting to think this is a Netflix mastering issue and not an Apple DV->HDR10 conversion issue.


I can say all the previous Netflix Marvel shows in HDR didn't look right to me and have been too dark, until the more recent second season of Iron Fist. As to why the newer HDR shows look good I can't say. As I said, Ken Whitcomb set this up for me and I really can't say or do anymore than I have here! Mebbe this is why new Sony TVs (I think Sony) will have a special Netflix mode? And yea with Netflix HDR I still get a rare loss of video sync, picture and sound maybe once to twice per episode at most but in sat 5 seconds it all comes back.


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## bobof

For what it is worth I've posted on the subject in the AppleTV thread here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-networking-media-servers-content-streaming/1278071-apple-tv-owners-thread-637.html#post57029412

I can't work out if the content is broken or the AppleTV is broken or both. The only other HDR capable Netflix device I have is an HDR10 Sony UHD player, and that has fixed metadata for the HDR10 streams it sends out for these titles. But there are other annoyances with it - if set to change refresh rates to match the content it changes even for the UI adverts which makes the UI almost unusable on a PJ with long sync times like my JVC X7900.


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## rolldog

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I can say all the previous Netflix Marvel shows in HDR didn't look right to me and have been too dark, until the more recent second season of Iron Fist. As to why the newer HDR shows look good I can't say. As I said, Ken Whitcomb set this up for me and I really can't say or do anymore than I have here! Mebbe this is why new Sony TVs (I think Sony) will have a special Netflix mode? And yea with Netflix HDR I still get a rare loss of video sync, picture and sound maybe once to twice per episode at most but in sat 5 seconds it all comes back.


I had Gregg Loewen in town for a week to calibrate all my displays and my Lumagen. Thankfully, I haven’t needed to touch anything since then. I pressed a button on the Lumagen remote to take a look at the UI and had a flashback to the old MS-DOS days, which isn’t a bad thing since computers back then were much more reliable. In this case, I feel a need to leave any adjustments to my Lumagen in the hands of a professional. Hopefully Apple will get their act together with this metatdata issue, or lack thereof.


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## Roland Janus

What's the consensus now on converting HDR to SDR2020 with the VPL-VW5000?

I'm still under the impresion that not using HDR mode with HDR material is in particular bad for the Sony.

Not true?
Unclear?

cheers, roland


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## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 100818*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


*FW Beta 100818*
Bug in 100718 update would turn off audio if the input was reselected. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## SoulOfUniverse

jrp said:


> - Kris' request for a P3 output mode pushed the matrix conversion feature to the top of the list. The next release (after 100118), we are adding matrix based conversion between color spaces. These are 709 to 2020, 2020 to 709, 709 to P3, and 2020 to P3. These will be optional. Using a matrix based conversion is better than using a 3D LUT since it is accurate for all data values where as the 3D LUT is a 17x17x17 piece-wise-linear approximation of the conversion and then only if you do the 3D LUT calibration successfully (for 2020 this has meant using Lightspace). If you decide to use the conversion to P3, a 3D LUT conversion to P3 is still recommended since it is generally not a supported format in projectors or TVs, but as I mentioned above I believe Calman, or Lightspace, and probably Chromapure, could do this P3 calibration.


Hi Jim,

So does that mean that now the best is to Profiling against Colour Standard Target set to DCI P3 D65?








But DCI P3 D65 Gamma reference is at 2.6
Is that what Lumagen is expecting at 3D Lut when using that?









Before that change, usually we had to select Targeted Colour Standard UHD Rec2020, which does profiling at Rec2020 container with Gamma reference set to 2.4.
Lumagen does expect to have gamma reference 3D Lut at 2.4, and then we choose HDR Mapping to use that 3D Lut in the OUTPUT CMS.
Can you please clarify more on this?

Thank you,

Regards,

Sergejs K.


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## loggeo

Good question. Is the matrix conversion (2020-->p3) happening before or after we upload the 3d lut? If it is before then we have to upload a dci p3 profile. If it is after we are aiming for 2020. Correct?
Also, I would be interested to know if it would be preferable to generate a custom source profile (dci p3 d65 *gamma2.4*).


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## sofakng

Is it true that the Lumagen Radiance Pro can downscale 4K (2160p) to 1440p?

If so, what is the latency and is there a one or two port HDMI solution?


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## Unherdable

jrp said:


> - For a long time we have considered doing (optional) matrix based conversion from 709 to 2020 or 2020 to 709. This was to allow a 709 projector to look as good as possible for HDR material (using 2020 to 709) without a 3D LUT calibration


Thanks for this, works great with my DPI Laser 4K.


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## jrp

On P3 matrix conversion:

- We set the P3 output up to target Gamma of 2.4. This is to match the Gamma we use for HDR-to-SDR2020 output. It allows one "P3 D65 Gamma 2.4" CMS to be used for 709 source and HDR output as "SDR P3 D65."

- You need to select the "DCI P3 D65" mode for the calibration software as shown in the SoulOfUniverse's post.

- The only color format defined for P3 is RGB. If your TV/projector supports P3, and pays attention to the HDMI Info Frame P3 flag, then you might not be required to do a 3D LUT calibration if you output P3 in RGB color format. If you output P3 in any other color format you need to do a 3D LUT calibration since there is no standard for the conversion to YCbCr. Typically you will need to do a calibration for TV/projectors that do not have a specific P3 D65 mode.

- The matrix conversion comes before the 3D LUT. It is in the same "RGB Linear Gamma" portion of the pipeline where the HDR Intensity Mapping resides.

- You must set the output "Colorspace" as P3 (output as P3 always enable the matrix conversion from the source format), and output color format (typically RGB for P3) *before* doing the calibration since it affects the calibration

- If you want P3 output for both 709 and 2020, calibrate for "DCI P3 D65" for CMS0 and then copy to CMS1. This allows you to tweak the CMS differently for SDR and for HDR sources while using the same 1D and 3D LUT.

==== 

For output of HDR as 709, or 709 as 2020, the matrix conversion is optional. We recommend turning it on if you plan to do a calibration as this will give you netter results than jut using the 3D LUT to do the conversion. If you have not done a calibration we recommend turning the matrix conversion on. If you have already done a calibration and turn matrix conversion on your calibration will be voided.

==== 

Please note: It is early in the game for P3. I suggest waiting until the dust has settled a bit if you plan to hire in a calibrator to use the new matrix conversions. If you do your own calibrations we believe the conversion are working correctly. So please do calibrate your system and let us know your results. I believe we will have enough feedback in the next week or two to confirm all is working with P3 and so if you plan to hire a calibrator to use the new matrix conversion I think a couple of weeks from now should be good.


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## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> What's the consensus now on converting HDR to SDR2020 with the VPL-VW5000?
> 
> I'm still under the impresion that not using HDR mode with HDR material is in particular bad for the Sony.
> 
> Not true?
> Unclear?
> 
> cheers, roland


anyone?


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## SoulOfUniverse

It's not clear on what context, your question doesn't contain enough information, what is exactly the problem??


Roland Janus said:


> anyone?


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## Roland Janus

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It's not clear on what context, your question doesn't contain enough information, what is exactly the problem??
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Wouldn't call it problem.
I think in the past, maybe Thrang, mentioned that Sony itself said that with HDR signals the 5000 should be put in HDR mode not SDR.
But there are also some doing HDR to SDR now, so I was wondering what is better now and why?

There must be some obvious advantages for one or the other.
What are all those 5000 owners with a pro now doing and why?

cheers, roland


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## SoulOfUniverse

Do you have Lumagen? At the moment there is no such projector in the world, which can handle HDR natively with 2084 PQ EOTF gamma curve without crushed blacks or clipping white, even Dolby Cristie projector which costs 6 figures 5000 lens entry cannot do that with its 30000 lumens, as it still cannot reach 10000 bits. Therefore the mapping must be implemented in Projectors world to achieve the best result when you are watching HDR content. Now there are several ways how you can achieve that tone mapping, you can either output CMS Color profile sdr2020 or sdr709, Sony sdr2020 forces you to use only one colour profile bt2020, but it's RGB Separation is poor comparing to it's colorspace2 or colorspace3, therefore I used sdr709 in Lumagen as ColorSpace output, if you use HDR output it will force you to use 2048 PQ gamma reference, which assumes your video display is capable of producing 10000nits, therefore I would never use that approach at the moment.


Roland Janus said:


> Wouldn't call it problem.
> I think in the past, maybe Thrang, mentioned that Sony itself said that with HDR signals the 5000 should be put in HDR mode not SDR.
> But there are also some doing HDR to SDR now, so I was wondering what is better now and why?
> 
> There must be some obvious advantages for one or the other.
> What are all those 5000 owners with a pro now doing and why?
> 
> cheers, roland


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

Roland Janus said:


> Wouldn't call it problem.
> I think in the past, maybe Thrang, mentioned that Sony itself said that with HDR signals the 5000 should be put in HDR mode not SDR.
> But there are also some doing HDR to SDR now, so I was wondering what is better now and why?
> 
> There must be some obvious advantages for one or the other.
> What are all those 5000 owners with a pro now doing and why?
> 
> cheers, roland


I posted in detail a few weeks back, with Kris Deering’s help in adjusting many knobs and things, that SDR2020 with IM in the Radiance was now looking as it should, which is excellent.


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## Roland Janus

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Do you have Lumagen? At the moment there is no such projector in the world, which can handle HDR natively with 2084 PQ EOTF gamma curve without crushed blacks or clipping white, even Dolby Cristie projector which costs 6 figures 5000 lens entry cannot do that with its 30000 lumens, as it still cannot reach 10000 bits. Therefore the mapping must be implemented in Projectors world to achieve the best result when you are watching HDR content. Now there are several ways how you can achieve that tone mapping, you can either output CMS Color profile sdr2020 or sdr709, Sony sdr2020 forces you to use only one colour profile bt2020, but it's RGB Separation is poor comparing to it's colorspace2 or colorspace3, therefore I used sdr709 in Lumagen as ColorSpace output, if you use HDR output it will force you to use 2048 PQ gamma reference, which assumes your video display is capable of producing 10000nits, therefore I would never use that approach at the moment.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


I have a pro and so far I just used the mapping with HDR2020 out. Seems that this isn't optimal anymore.
But there seems also now two different approaches;

HDR2020 -> SDR709, what you do

HDR2020 -> SDR2020, what Thrang does.



What's Lumagen recommendation?
And how does the new P3 mode play a role in that (for the Sony)?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Roland Janus said:


> I have a pro and so far I just used the mapping with HDR2020 out. Seems that this isn't optimal anymore.
> But there seems also now two different approaches;
> 
> HDR2020 -> SDR709, what you do
> 
> HDR2020 -> SDR2020, what Thrang does.
> 
> 
> 
> What's Lumagen recommendation?
> And how does the new P3 mode play a role in that (for the Sony)?


It depends whether you are doing a calibration 3D Lut?
If so, HDR2020 -> SDR709 is preferrable as, SDR2020 locks SONY to use BT2020 colorspace, this has poor RGB Separation (I have not tested this on 5000ES, but tested this on my VW760ES 2 units I had), I can assume it is the same across other Sony 4k PJs.
Therefore myself and Gordon found that ColorSpace3 has the best RGB Separation and also does the same colour coverage of DCI-P3 as others colorspaces.
In regards P3, because sony doesn't have DCI-P3 ColorSpace predefined (I've seen only JVC has, like the new model N5, N7, NX9 has this space), therefore you'll have to do 3D Lut Mapping targeted to a custom DCI-P3 D65 Gamma 2.4 reference color space. You'll have to output RGB signal from your Source device into Lumagen (as this is what I understand the limitation of P3 matrixes). Again I haven't tried this myself yet as it might be not that simple and requires doing several tests myself. I will be away whole November from PJ, so the only test I'll be able to perform will be Mid December, then I'll be able to help more to clarify on those things. But more likely someone, who has already tried that will be able to answer your question more in details.

At the moment my VW760ES, I use the following settings in Lumagen:
CMS Output -> ColorSpace SDR709
HDR Mapping -> On, 400 nits, 3D Lut (Auto)
in Projector
Picture -> Expert Settings -> Color Space - Color Space 3
Picture -> Expert Settings -> Gamma 2.6
Picture -> Expert Settings -> HDR - OFF
But bear in mind I have 3D Lut calibrated loaded into Lumagen which is targeting colour space UHD Rec2020 Gamma 2.4.


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## Roland Janus

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It depends whether you are doing a calibration 3D Lut?
> If so, HDR2020 -> SDR709 is preferrable as, SDR2020 locks SONY to use BT2020 colorspace, this has poor RGB Separation (I have not tested this on 5000ES, but tested this on my VW760ES 2 units I had), I can assume it is the same across other Sony 4k PJs.
> Therefore myself and Gordon found that ColorSpace3 has the best RGB Separation and also does the same colour coverage of DCI-P3 as others colorspaces.
> In regards P3, because sony doesn't have DCI-P3 ColorSpace predefined (I've seen only JVC has, like the new model N5, N7, NX9 has this space), therefore you'll have to do 3D Lut Mapping targeted to a custom DCI-P3 D65 Gamma 2.4 reference color space. You'll have to output RGB signal from your Source device into Lumagen (as this is what I understand the limitation of P3 matrixes). Again I haven't tried this myself yet as it might be not that simple and requires doing several tests myself. I will be away whole November from PJ, so the only test I'll be able to perform will be Mid December, then I'll be able to help more to clarify on those things. But more likely someone, who has already tried that will be able to answer your question more in details.
> 
> At the moment my VW760ES, I use the following settings in Lumagen:
> CMS Output -> ColorSpace SDR709
> HDR Mapping -> On, 400 nits, 3D Lut (Auto)
> in Projector
> Picture -> Expert Settings -> Color Space - Color Space 3
> Picture -> Expert Settings -> Gamma 2.6
> Picture -> Expert Settings -> HDR - OFF
> But bear in mind I have 3D Lut calibrated loaded into Lumagen which is targeting colour space UHD Rec2020 Gamma 2.4.



thank you very much, lots of useful stuff, I have to think about all that.

cheers, roland


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Roland Janus said:


> thank you very much, lots of useful stuff, I have to think about all that.
> 
> cheers, roland


No problem Roland,

I still want to do a full write up on how to, but this takes time and I simply don't have it at the moment, so will try my best, when will be back in December in UK.


----------



## Roland Janus

SoulOfUniverse said:


> No problem Roland,
> 
> I still want to do a full write up on how to, but this takes time and I simply don't have it at the moment, so will try my best, when will be back in December in UK.


In regards to RGB out, this doesn't look right from my Nvidia Shield.
Anyone else getting other choices or what do you get for e.g. for Apple TV?

-roland


----------



## mskreis

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *FW Beta 100818*
> 
> Bug in 100718 update would turn off audio if the input was reselected.
> 
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware




I can’t successfully upload this fw. I’ve tried 4x with no success. Last attempt was at the lowest speed and I continue to get a checksum error. Even tried a force update with the same results. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

mskreis said:


> I can’t successfully upload this fw. I’ve tried 4x with no success. Last attempt was at the lowest speed and I continue to get a checksum error. Even tried a force update with the same results.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I had the same issue with that firmware. What worked is the low level update or whatever it’s called... get the updater ready and connected to the Radiance but don’t start it yet. Unplug the Radiance from power for a few seconds, then plug it back in, and start he update within 10 seconds (doesn’t matter that the power indicator is red on the Radiance) This is a longer process but worked for me.

You can use their Radiance-config software to backup your settings first just in case something goes haywire... it’s on their site.


----------



## mskreis

thrang said:


> I had the same issue with that firmware. What worked is the low level update or whatever it’s called... get the updater ready and connected to the Radiance but don’t start it yet. Unplug the Radiance from power for a few seconds, then plug it back in, and start he update within 10 seconds (doesn’t matter that the power indicator is red on the Radiance) This is a longer process but worked for me.
> 
> 
> 
> You can use their Radiance-config software to your settings first just in case something goes haywire... it’s on their site.




Yes. That’s what I finally did last night but with fw 100718. Maybe I’ll use this approach and try 100818 again. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Any particular reason these firmwares are not working like all the others? Maybe Jim can answer. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Any particular reason these firmwares are not working like all the others? Maybe Jim can answer. SJ


First let me say that if you have a normal update fail, I recommend then switching to "Boot Mode Update." The reason is a failed update can actually cause the software to misbehave enough to prevent any future "normal update" from working. Since the "Boot Mode" code is never updated and does not have any other tasks to perform, it works when a normal update will not.

Once you have the "Boot Mode Update" completed and the unit is working again, you could then switch back to doing normal updates for future releases.

===== 

I don't know why an update might not work in 'Normal Update Mode" other then to surmise some internal timing changed such that the update is not getting enough CPU resources to complete correctly. As an example, if a source or TV/projector is not connecting properly it can create so many interrupts the microprocessor does not have enough resources left for the update.

It can be a good idea to turn off (or even disconnect) sources when doing an update. Note that if you do a Boot Mode update you would not need to turn off sources since the Boot Mode code is designed to only spend time doing the update, ignoring all sources and devices on its output. Patrick and I have actually had discussions about recommending only doing Boot mode updates (but are not making this recommendation at this time). The down side of a Boot Mode Update is they always take 5 to 6 minutes at 230K BAUD, where a normal update would only take about one minute for updates that do not include a new FPGA program.


----------



## rolldog

Roland Janus said:


> In regards to RGB out, this doesn't look right from my Nvidia Shield.
> Anyone else getting other choices or what do you get for e.g. for Apple TV?
> 
> -roland


The Nvidia Shield gives many more display output options than ATV4K. Sticking with Apple’s proprietary “simplistic” interface, like every Apple device, the ATV4K allows you to choose 4K60 SDR or 4K60 HDR. It doesn’t allow you to choose anything beyond that, like the display output of REC709, REC2020, YUV, RGB, etc. And as I mentioned a couple of pages ago, currently, only 4K60 SDR is currently working. Before the update to iOS12, 4K60 HDR was working just fine. Because of this, none of the content on the Apple TV is offered in HDR.

I haven’t used my Nvidia Shield in quite a while, but I think I’m going to hook it back up. Are you using your Shield for HDR content in Netflix, Vudu, etc?


----------



## rolldog

SJHT said:


> Any particular reason these firmwares are not working like all the others? Maybe Jim can answer. SJ


Also make sure the correct COM Port is selected if you’re updating via USB. Mine normally takes the update immediately, but this time, for whatever reason, the USB was set to the incorrect COM Port. Once I noticed this and changed it, the update worked fine.


----------



## SJHT

It all went normal for me as usual. Same port, etc. SJ


----------



## rolldog

FWIW, for all of you who have been having issues with the ATV4K running 4KHDR60, I was actually able to get the ATV4K to work with the Lumagen using the 1080P HDR signal. I don't know exactly what the issue is with 4KHDR, but when I'm using the ATV4K through the Lumagen, switch it to 4KHDR, the picture goes out. While it's out, if I press OK on the Lumagen remote, it doesn't show any input signal at all. Only after it defaults back to SDR does it show a signal. I'm about to drop kick this ATV4K into my pool.


----------



## thrang

rolldog said:


> FWIW, for all of you who have been having issues with the ATV4K running 4KHDR60, I was actually able to get the ATV4K to work with the Lumagen using the 1080P HDR signal. I don't know exactly what the issue is with 4KHDR, but when I'm using the ATV4K through the Lumagen, switch it to 4KHDR, the picture goes out. While it's out, if I press OK on the Lumagen remote, it doesn't show any input signal at all. Only after it defaults back to SDR does it show a signal. I'm about to drop kick this ATV4K into my pool.


Not sure what your issues are but no problems here, though my default set up is 4K SDR with frame rate and dynamic range matching on

I recall Lumagen support mention some time back that occasionally there was some odd handshake issue and was suggested, after power cycling the Radiance, to restart the Apple TV

What happens when you bypass the Radiance and output 4K HDR?


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> FWIW, for all of you who have been having issues with the ATV4K running 4KHDR60, I was actually able to get the ATV4K to work with the Lumagen using the 1080P HDR signal. I don't know exactly what the issue is with 4KHDR, but when I'm using the ATV4K through the Lumagen, switch it to 4KHDR, the picture goes out. While it's out, if I press OK on the Lumagen remote, it doesn't show any input signal at all. Only after it defaults back to SDR does it show a signal. I'm about to drop kick this ATV4K into my pool.


My ATV4K seems to work generally fine via an 18G input on my Pro 4242. I usually have the UI running SDR4K50, but the other resolutions work fine, and it autoswitches resolution / dynamic range OK. By generally fine I mean so long as I stay away from Netflix HDR content with its wonky metadata!  . The only thing I notice is I often see a very brief green flash in the bottom area of the screen a few seconds after starting using the ATV. After that it is rock solid. Via a BJC certified premium cable. I'm pretty sure this flash is at least somehow ATV related as I don't think I see it on other inputs.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> Not sure what your issues are but no problems here, though my default set up is 4K SDR with frame rate and dynamic range matching on
> 
> I recall Lumagen support mention some time back that occasionally there was some odd handshake issue and was suggested, after power cycling the Radiance, to restart the Apple TV
> 
> What happens when you bypass the Radiance and output 4K HDR?


I got my ATV4k 10 days ago and its been working fine so far. I use a 18G input on my Radiance Pro and a 18G output to my Sony VW5000! With ATV4k set to output 4k SDR (which means that when anything is HDR, it outputs HDR only for HDR material).


----------



## rolldog

thrang said:


> Not sure what your issues are but no problems here, though my default set up is 4K SDR with frame rate and dynamic range matching on
> 
> I recall Lumagen support mention some time back that occasionally there was some odd handshake issue and was suggested, after power cycling the Radiance, to restart the Apple TV
> 
> What happens when you bypass the Radiance and output 4K HDR?


I'm not sure, that's my next test. I thought I would try HDR using different resolutions before taking it out of my rack. However, I did hook the ATV4K into my Control4 matrix and used a different display to set it to 4KHDR, but that did the same thing. I'm guessing it's an issue with the ATV4K. The odd thing is the Lumagen doesn't even recognize an input signal when switching the ATV4K signal to 4KHDR. Everything was working fine before iOS 12, so it must have something to do with the botched metadata coming from the ATV4K. I'm not 100% sure, but I think iOS 12 is when they introduced DV.

thrang - When you use the ATV4K in 4KSDR, do you get an option to display movies in HDR?


----------



## thrang

rolldog said:


> I'm not sure, that's my next test. I thought I would try HDR using different resolutions before taking it out of my rack. However, I did hook the ATV4K into my Control4 matrix and used a different display to set it to 4KHDR, but that did the same thing. I'm guessing it's an issue with the ATV4K. The odd thing is the Lumagen doesn't even recognize an input signal when switching the ATV4K signal to 4KHDR. Everything was working fine before iOS 12, so it must have something to do with the botched metadata coming from the ATV4K. I'm not 100% sure, but I think iOS 12 is when they introduced DV.
> 
> thrang - When you use the ATV4K in 4KSDR, do you get an option to display movies in HDR?


It’s not an option - it’s automatic via the match rate and range option in the ATV

Try a different cable as well; change conditions. This is not typical. And you can always wipe the Atv and set it up again - doesn’t take very long


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> I'm not sure, that's my next test. I thought I would try HDR using different resolutions before taking it out of my rack. However, I did hook the ATV4K into my Control4 matrix and used a different display to set it to 4KHDR, but that did the same thing. I'm guessing it's an issue with the ATV4K. The odd thing is the Lumagen doesn't even recognize an input signal when switching the ATV4K signal to 4KHDR. Everything was working fine before iOS 12, so it must have something to do with the botched metadata coming from the ATV4K. I'm not 100% sure, but I think iOS 12 is when they introduced DV.
> 
> thrang - When you use the ATV4K in 4KSDR, do you get an option to display movies in HDR?


Do you have a spec sheet for the Control4 6x6 matrix? The only data I could find suggests it doesn't support 4K60 HDR...

https://www.control4.com/docs/produ.../latest/4k-uhd-lu-series-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf


----------



## rolldog

Well, I guess I should try watching a movie. I thought if it was set to 4KSDR I wouldn't be able to select HDR content. That's what most streamers do, but I didn't realize the UI could be set for SDR and actually watch HDR content. I guess I need to try it,


----------



## rolldog

Yep, that’s what I thought. On my ATV4K, it only plays SDR content unless 4K60 HDR is selected in the ATV video settings. When I go into the video settings and select Match Content, it shows 4K HDR 60Hz as an “Unverified Format.” I guess I’ll remove it from my rack and try it somewhere else and see if I can get a picture using 4K HDR 60Hz.

The only thing that I can think of that could possibly be the issue is my matrix because when I switch to 4K HDR and press ok on my Lumagen, it doesn’t show any input signal. My Oppo and DIRECTV both play 4K HDR through my matrix so I’m not sure why the ATV would be any different. I guess it’s time to pull it from the rack. If it still doesn’t work, it’s going in my pool.


----------



## rolldog

bobof said:


> Do you have a spec sheet for the Control4 6x6 matrix? The only data I could find suggests it doesn't support 4K60 HDR...
> 
> https://www.control4.com/docs/produ.../latest/4k-uhd-lu-series-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf


Yes, the one I have is C4-LU862, which handles 4K60, HDR 10 bit color, Atmos DTS:X, etc

https://www.control4.com/docs/produ.../latest/4k-uhd-lu-series-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> Yes, the one I have is C4-LU862, which handles 4K60, HDR 10 bit color, Atmos DTS:X, etc
> 
> https://www.control4.com/docs/produ.../latest/4k-uhd-lu-series-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf


Maybe Check that with Control4 support.

The datasheet you linked says different:
"HDR @ UHD: 3840x2160p30 4:2:0 10bit (30bit color)"

By my recollection from when I was looking at HDBT solutions; some of them unfortunately have EDIDs which effectively advertise that they can do 4KHDR60_10big but can't actually do it, resulting in being able to select the option in device menus but not actually get an image. Even claimed 18G HDBT solutions are a compromise as the underlying transport is only capable of a little over 10G. The best units use visually lossless chroma compression from VESA which has some strong research behind it; it does seem to work well. Some use silent colour space conversion at both ends which is a bit nasty.


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> Yes, the one I have is C4-LU862, which handles 4K60, HDR 10 bit color, Atmos DTS:X, etc
> 
> https://www.control4.com/docs/produ.../latest/4k-uhd-lu-series-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf


Did you get to the bottom of this?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


----------



## rolldog

bobof said:


> Did you get to the bottom of this?
> 
> Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk


Yes, sorry, I had to leave town and just got back today, and I haven’t had time to get back on here to let you know how it turned out. Apparently, it’s an issue with the Control4 matrix. Even though I can get 4K60 HDR on my OPPO through the matrix, I have the OPPO set on force HDR. I’m assuming this is an issue when it comes to the Apple TV being able to detect the capability of the display so it can decide whether to play 4K SDR, HDR, DV, Atmos, etc. When I bypass the matrix, the Apple TV recognizes the capability to play 4K60 HDR. 

I’m very surprised, happy surprised, by the capabilities of the Apple TV! Most other media players I’ve used in the past had to be set for 4K60 HDR in the device settings in order to play 4K60 HDR content, but the Apple TV recognizes the capability, allows you to use the UI in either SDR or HDR, and when you decide to watch something, it changes everything to watch the best format possible based on the capabilities of the display and pre/pro. Like I mentioned, I don’t have any issues watching 4K HDR through the matrix using my OPPO or watching 4K HLG HDR on DIRECTV, so it must have something to do with the Apple TV auto-sensing the display capabilities with the matrix in the chain. Having the OPPO set to force HDR allows the content to pass through to every display in, and outside, my house.

Thank you everyone for the advice/recommendations. Now, I think I’ll go watch some of the UHD Blu-rays that came in while I was in Dallas.


----------



## bobof

rolldog said:


> Yes, sorry, I had to leave town and just got back today, and I haven’t had time to get back on here to let you know how it turned out. Apparently, it’s an issue with the Control4 matrix. Even though I can get 4K60 HDR on my OPPO through the matrix, I have the OPPO set on force HDR. I’m assuming this is an issue when it comes to the Apple TV being able to detect the capability of the display so it can decide whether to play 4K SDR, HDR, DV, Atmos, etc. When I bypass the matrix, the Apple TV recognizes the capability to play 4K60 HDR.
> 
> I’m very surprised, happy surprised, by the capabilities of the Apple TV! Most other media players I’ve used in the past had to be set for 4K60 HDR in the device settings in order to play 4K60 HDR content, but the Apple TV recognizes the capability, allows you to use the UI in either SDR or HDR, and when you decide to watch something, it changes everything to watch the best format possible based on the capabilities of the display and pre/pro. Like I mentioned, I don’t have any issues watching 4K HDR through the matrix using my OPPO or watching 4K HLG HDR on DIRECTV, so it must have something to do with the Apple TV auto-sensing the display capabilities with the matrix in the chain. Having the OPPO set to force HDR allows the content to pass through to every display in, and outside, my house.
> 
> Thank you everyone for the advice/recommendations. Now, I think I’ll go watch some of the UHD Blu-rays that came in while I was in Dallas.


It >might< (I've not looked into this) be that the OPPO can negotiate an 8 bit 420 connection to the display. That would be downgrading the data coming off disc which is 10bit, but would get under the limits listed in the C4 doc. 

The ATV4K euphoria may be short lived if you start watching much HDR. The user implementation is excellent, however the underlying technical implementation is a bit problematic.

Apple / content providers like Netflix seem to have issues with the HDR10 conversion they do from DV which gives constantly changing metadata where it should be static for a title. For some Netflix content there is an update every 30s which causes an audio drop / sometimes a luminance jump in the Lumagen, for some AppleTV movies it is every 5 mins. This is also problematic for Sony projectors - so Lumagen aren't alone here. There are quite a lot of posts in the AppleTV thread and a dedicated Sony PJ thread for the issue.

There also appear to be some issues with the levels or noise in the black bars on lots of content which make Lumagen auto aspect detection pretty patchy.

Lumagen are being great though, and working to try and improve both these issues that aren't really their problem; it's brilliant to be able to talk to sensible people at Lumagen as the support folk at Netflix and Apple so far haven't come up with much...


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 110618*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 110618*
Some fixes and imrprovements for image based auto aspect detection. 
Fix for Apple TV changing HDR values and audio information in the middle of a program (occurs almost every 30 seconds in some newer material on Netflix). 
This was causing video to stutter and audio to dropout. 
The HDR fix is a placeholder until ability is added to Pro to react to HDR changes without video interruption. 
Fix for audio format not being detected correctly with Trinnov Altitude 16. 
Other small bugfixes. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## dinamigym

rolldog said:


> FWIW, for all of you who have been having issues with the ATV4K running 4KHDR60, I was actually able to get the ATV4K to work with the Lumagen using the 1080P HDR signal. I don't know exactly what the issue is with 4KHDR, but when I'm using the ATV4K through the Lumagen, switch it to 4KHDR, the picture goes out. While it's out, if I press OK on the Lumagen remote, it doesn't show any input signal at all. Only after it defaults back to SDR does it show a signal. I'm about to drop kick this ATV4K into my pool.




Were you able to come to any resolution. I have my ATV4k going direct to Lumagen and Lumagen direct to Sony 5000. Worked fine until ios12 update. Since then...nothing but trouble. If I power off ATV and back on it works fine until I power off system and then try turning on again later. No sync for ATV. Same as you...no input signal shows on Lumagen? I’ve tried running ATV at various HDR and SDR with same result? Requires ATV unit power off and on for it to sync again. I’m about to **** can it! All other sources work flawless! Strato, Oppo, xfinity...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sda

*No video signal from Xfinity X1 through 4446 to TV*

I've scoured this thread looking for an answer to no avail. I'm setting up my system after a move with a 2012 Pioneer Plasma as a placeholder until my 4K TV arrives. My Xfinity X1 cable box will drive the TV directly, but when connected through the Lumagen, I get audio, but no video. My other sources (Blu-Ray, Apple TV) are working just fine. 

I've tried swapping HDMI cables and swapping inputs with the known working sources to see if I can get it to work--all to no avail. I have also installed the latest Lumagen firmware (Beta 110618).  Does anyone have ideas on how to proceed?


----------



## scrowe

sda said:


> I've scoured this thread looking for an answer to no avail. I'm setting up my system after a move with a 2012 Pioneer Plasma as a placeholder until my 4K TV arrives. My Xfinity X1 cable box will drive the TV directly, but when connected through the Lumagen, I get audio, but no video. My other sources (Blu-Ray, Apple TV) are working just fine.
> 
> I've tried swapping HDMI cables and swapping inputs with the known working sources to see if I can get it to work--all to no avail. I have also installed the latest Lumagen firmware (Beta 110618).  Does anyone have ideas on how to proceed?


Can you still bring up the Lumagen OSD on the input? I would try reducing the Input video to 1080p max on the Hdmi EDID input settings, and setting the output to 1080p, and see if that gets a picture.


----------



## sda

scrowe said:


> Can you still bring up the Lumagen OSD on the input? I would try reducing the Input video to 1080p max on the Hdmi EDID input settings, and setting the output to 1080p, and see if that gets a picture.


I don't have a 4K TV yet, nor do I have the modules for 4K for the Lumagen, hence the unit has always been in 1080p mode. I just switched TV's and cable boxes (used to use a TiVo) and now I get no picture.

By the way, swapping 1080p sources (such as a Blu-Ray player) works just fine. But no surprise with that since it works on other inputs as well. It's just the X1 that doesn't seem to drive the signal through the 4446.

Any other ideas?


----------



## dinamigym

sda said:


> I don't have a 4K TV yet, nor do I have the modules for 4K for the Lumagen, hence the unit has always been in 1080p mode. I just switched TV's and cable boxes (used to use a TiVo) and now I get no picture.
> 
> By the way, swapping 1080p sources (such as a Blu-Ray player) works just fine. But no surprise with that since it works on other inputs as well. It's just the X1 that doesn't seem to drive the signal through the 4446.
> 
> Any other ideas?




I have an x1 running direct to my Lumagen. It’s rare, but occasionally I’ll lose signal and the solution for me is to pull the power from the x1 box wait 20s and power back up. I have it set at 1080p60 in and out of the Lumagen and rate match set to No


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sda

dinamigym said:


> I have an x1 running direct to my Lumagen. It’s rare, but occasionally I’ll lose signal and the solution for me is to pull the power from the x1 box wait 20s and power back up. I have it set at 1080p60 in and out of the Lumagen and rate match set to No
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I changed the "Rate Match" to "No" and double checked the other settings. Curiously enough, when I power cycle the X1, I get the "powering up" screen to show but no actual video content once the unit has finished its bootup cycle. 



At this point, I think I'm resigned to waiting for the new TV, which may be a bit further off than I anticipated.


----------



## youngsyp

Is there a way to disable HLG support?

To elaborate on my 'issue' - I have a Panasonic UB820 UHD BD player that I'm using for iPlayer UHD duties. There's a setting within the UB820 that will enable it to perform a HLG to HDR10 conversion (automatically). However, my belief is that as it sees the Radiance Pro supports HLG, despite the TV not supporting it, the conversion will not activate. And there's no manual option.

Whilst the Radiance Pro does a great job of this conversion itself, it's more convenient to allow the UB820 to do it. And I'd like to see how good a job it will do too.

Paul


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 110718*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 110718*
Fix for bug in the previous update that caused some displays to not recognize HDR when being output from the Pro. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .

Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

*Displays affected prior to 110718 FW update?*



Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 110718*
> Fix for bug in the previous update that caused some displays to not recognize HDR when being output from the Pro.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


 @jrp
Can you tell us which displays?


----------



## SJHT

Mike_WI said:


> @jrp
> Can you tell us which displays?


I know mine was one of them. Sony 885. Fixed with this update. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

SJHT said:


> I know mine was one of them. Sony 885. Fixed with this update. SJ


Thanks. Helpful.
I was wondering if JVC projectors were involved.


----------



## westmd

Can anybody help me with configuring the NLS? Background is that I have ordered a Paladin DCR for the new JVC projectors with 17/9 native 4k panel. As they are postponed into next year I already want to use the lens with my existing JVC X7000 16/9 panel. That means I have to configure the stretch / output so that the lens works again in my setup. Has anybody done this?


----------



## msamblanet

westmd said:


> Can anybody help me with configuring the NLS? Background is that I have ordered a Paladin DCR for the new JVC projectors with 17/9 native 4k panel. As they are postponed into next year I already want to use the lens with my existing JVC X7000 16/9 panel. That means I have to configure the stretch / output so that the lens works again in my setup. Has anybody done this?


I’m waiting on a jvc preorder also...

You should not need NLS - adjust your image with lens to fill screen height with the lens. Then just configure the Lumagen’s output-style with the current proj+lens aspect ratio of 2.22 (16:9 x 1.25) and it should handle the rest.

If you want to avoid the slight letterbox left for scope movies, you could add in a second lens memory to zoom in for scope to take the 2.22 -> full screen width...


----------



## littlemoses

@jrp

I wanted to give the new "P3 colorspace output" feature a try and stumbled across some questions / "issues":

* I use lightspace to calibrate a (2018) panasonic oled tv
* When i leave the colorspace in the radiance pro at auto (no 3DLUT enabled) and do a profile with a custom colorspace DCI P3 D65 with Gamma 2.4 the result is already very "close" (dE bellow 1 for most points). So i figured that by using a DCI P3 -> native display colorspace 3D LUT instead of the current Rec2020 -> display 3D LUT i should get better results. So what i did was then to:
* Set the colorspace to P3 SDR for CMS0
* Changed the format in Style0 from Auto to RGB/vid
* The info screen then shows that the output is P3 SDR RGB as expected
* The TV is left at its "native colorspace" setting
* Now at that point i would expect that a profile from lightspace still shows me a result close to DCI P3, but it does not (in fact it is really bad compared to before). I then tried changing RGB to auto again (resulting in YCbCr 422) but still the same result. The TV does not show any (extra) information when the radiance outputs P3, the colorspace is set manually to "native" (actually the TV has a "DCI P3 colorspace setting", when that is selected i get the same results as with native) so i would assume that its not the TV that is interpreting the input differently but something different is going on (of course it cant tell for sure)

* From my understanding enabling the P3 colorspace output feature should just
* Add some "info" frame to the output (which is think is ignored by my TV, though i am not sure)
* Do a "input" -> P3 matrix conversion before the 3D LUT / intesity mapping

* So to me this boils down to the question if the TV is somehow interpreting the input differently or the radiance doing something that i don't understand. Oh and the radiance also acts as pattern generator (which should not be affected by the input matrix conversion at all?)

Thanks in advance for any help here


----------



## stefanop

With RS232 I'd like to query Radiance for current Aspect Ratio selected (I'm using a 2.40:1 screen) in order to trigger screen shades motors but the TechTip11 is updated 'til 2009. Does anybody know where can I find a newer updated version with the latest commands and parameters?


----------



## stefanop

...sorry I forgot to write: to query and SET Radiance for Aspect Ratio...


----------



## giomania

There was a list posted here (as I recall) with more codes, as the Radiance Pro manual includes some as well. I had created a Word document for my own use with all the codes I might need that I found in the tech tips, manuals, and the posts here.

Let me know if you can’t find the posts, and I can send it to you if desired, or put it in Google Docs with a shareable link. Again, it doesn’t have all the codes listed in the sources above, just those I thought I would need.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*



stefanop said:


> With RS232 I'd like to query Radiance for current Aspect Ratio selected (I'm using a 2.40:1 screen) in order to trigger screen shades motors but the TechTip11 is updated 'til 2009. Does anybody know where can I find a newer updated version with the latest commands and parameters?





giomania said:


> There was a list posted here (as I recall) with more codes, as the Radiance Pro manual includes some as well. I had created a Word document for my own use with all the codes I might need that I found in the tech tips, manuals, and the posts here.
> 
> Let me know if you can’t find the posts, and I can send it to you if desired, or put it in Google Docs with a shareable link. Again, it doesn’t have all the codes listed in the sources above, just those I thought I would need.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
Press Menu then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler" 
Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0910 - service mode
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0966 - command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off (from 06-25-18 FW)
When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not
0997 - save to backup config location
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.


AND:

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0013_DirectCommandsAndMenuShortcuts_071316.pdf


----------



## bobof

stefanop said:


> With RS232 I'd like to query Radiance for current Aspect Ratio selected (I'm using a 2.40:1 screen) in order to trigger screen shades motors but the TechTip11 is updated 'til 2009. Does anybody know where can I find a newer updated version with the latest commands and parameters?


Get to the updated tech tip via the Lumagen website instead of via the outdated Google one that gets found. It is here:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_010418.pdf

You can enable status reporting in the menus on the Lumagen to automatically output this info if the input aspect changes; that allows you to use the IR for the Lumagen to control the masks, and also use auto aspect to control the masks.

I've done this and am using a Raspberry Pi to parse the output of the Auto Aspect algorithm and drive my screen motors, which makes my screen masks move automagically and is very cool. My screen is a 1.78:1 with electric top and bottom masks.


----------



## stefanop

Thank you very much to giomania, Mike_WI and bobof!! The answers helped me a lot and saved me a ton of time. Thank you again.
I've just trashed my old TechTip11 sheets and replaced with the new printed ones after downloading the PDF linked.
Probably with ZQI20 and ZQI22 I'll solve 90% of the queries I need.

The target is the one described by bobof: screen masks which move automatically when Input-Aspect changes.


----------



## Htnut2000

littlemoses said:


> @jrp
> 
> I wanted to give the new "P3 colorspace output" feature a try and stumbled across some questions / "issues":
> 
> * I use lightspace to calibrate a (2018) panasonic oled tv
> * When i leave the colorspace in the radiance pro at auto (no 3DLUT enabled) and do a profile with a custom colorspace DCI P3 D65 with Gamma 2.4 the result is already very "close" (dE bellow 1 for most points). So i figured that by using a DCI P3 -> native display colorspace 3D LUT instead of the current Rec2020 -> display 3D LUT i should get better results. So what i did was then to:
> * Set the colorspace to P3 SDR for CMS0
> * Changed the format in Style0 from Auto to RGB/vid
> * The info screen then shows that the output is P3 SDR RGB as expected
> * The TV is left at its "native colorspace" setting
> * Now at that point i would expect that a profile from lightspace still shows me a result close to DCI P3, but it does not (in fact it is really bad compared to before). I then tried changing RGB to auto again (resulting in YCbCr 422) but still the same result. The TV does not show any (extra) information when the radiance outputs P3, the colorspace is set manually to "native" (actually the TV has a "DCI P3 colorspace setting", when that is selected i get the same results as with native) so i would assume that its not the TV that is interpreting the input differently but something different is going on (of course it cant tell for sure)
> 
> 
> * From my understanding enabling the P3 colorspace output feature should just
> * Add some "info" frame to the output (which is think is ignored by my TV, though i am not sure)
> * Do a "input" -> P3 matrix conversion before the 3D LUT / intesity mapping
> 
> * So to me this boils down to the question if the TV is somehow interpreting the input differently or the radiance doing something that i don't understand. Oh and the radiance also acts as pattern generator (which should not be affected by the input matrix conversion at all?)
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help here


I think your problem is switching the color space on the Pro to P3 SDR before profiling the display

I found that the procedure that worked for me is to use REC 709 for generating the profile 

After you have generated the LUT, you can switch the Pro output space to P3 and it should work correctly


----------



## bobof

stefanop said:


> Thank you very much to giomania, Mike_WI and bobof!! The answers helped me a lot and saved me a ton of time. Thank you again.
> I've just trashed my old TechTip11 sheets and replaced with the new printed ones after downloading the PDF linked.
> Probably with ZQI20 and ZQI22 I'll solve 90% of the queries I need.
> 
> The target is the one described by bobof: screen masks which move automatically when Input-Aspect changes.


Cool, it works well (mostly). Make sure you use the very latest releases from Lumagen as there were some bugs which made it break (get stuck with wrong aspects) until October.
Outstanding issues that I notice in auto-aspect (so you don't waste your time going crazy!) 

1) Black bar detection doesn't always work perfectly. AppleTV4K SDR streaming from Netflix with output in YCrCb is usually a very good example of this failure. I'm sure it is because the black bars aren't really black or have noise, but it is annoying. For AppleTV4K specifically switching to RGB High mode helps, which points to issues in black level. Lumagen mentioned they'd try to make it more robust. I have also seen this in some disc content (much rarer though).
2) If you have the status updates set and you are using a mode which doesn't change zooming etc in the Lumagen you'll notice a very brief glitch on screen when the RS232 update happens over the serial port. I think this also happens when you manually issue the queries. So a setup which is polling the status by sending the requests every 1s will give quite a bad experience. It is better to enable updates and have something listen to the output on the serial port (which contains the aspect information). This way you only have serial traffic when there is an aspect update. Even better if Lumagen improve it further to prevent these glitches 

Out of interest, what will you use for doing the aspect control?


----------



## stefanop

bobof said:


> Out of interest, what will you use for doing the aspect control?


A multisession client-server .Net based application which I'm still writing. At the moment I can control processor, projector, media streamer and UHD-disc player.
Thank you for the latest two tips.


----------



## jrp

youngsyp said:


> Is there a way to disable HLG support?
> 
> To elaborate on my 'issue' - I have a Panasonic UB820 UHD BD player that I'm using for iPlayer UHD duties. There's a setting within the UB820 that will enable it to perform a HLG to HDR10 conversion (automatically). However, my belief is that as it sees the Radiance Pro supports HLG, despite the TV not supporting it, the conversion will not activate. And there's no manual option.
> 
> Whilst the Radiance Pro does a great job of this conversion itself, it's more convenient to allow the UB820 to do it. And I'd like to see how good a job it will do too.
> 
> Paul


Comments on HLG support:

The next release will split HDR10 and HLG in the Global.Video.SrcFormat EDID control menu (as well as the individual input menu where you can select "Use Global" or independently select to report HLG or not in the Pro's EDID back to sources). So once released you will be able to enable HDR10 but disable HLG in the Pro's EDID back to sources if you would like to.

For those who want to use the Pro for HLG tone mapping, note that you must choose the output format as "SDR" (2020, P3, or 709) and enable "HDR Mapping" in the output CMS1 (default) menu.

==== 

We think the Pro allows you to dial in HLG better than TV/projectors, but this allows you an option to test our theory. As always we appreciate feedback on how we can improve the Radiance Pro, and we do listen to suggestions. In fact user feedback is why this new EDID feature is being added.


----------



## jrp

westmd said:


> Can anybody help me with configuring the NLS? Background is that I have ordered a Paladin DCR for the new JVC projectors with 17/9 native 4k panel. As they are postponed into next year I already want to use the lens with my existing JVC X7000 16/9 panel. That means I have to configure the stretch / output so that the lens works again in my setup. Has anybody done this?


First a side note on the Paladin lens (which we are using in the Lumagen Demo theater we are working on to gain more light output): The base Paladin lens is designed for 3840x1920 projectors and has a 0.75 vertical compression. This results in an output aspect ratio of 2.37 = ((3840/2160) / 0.75). The Paladin DCR is generally used for 4096x2160 projectors and results in a 2.37 aspect ratio as well ((4096/2160) / 0.8).

You can us the Paladin DCR lens with a 3840x2160 16:9 projector. In this case you end up with an output aspect ratio from the lens of 2.22 = ((3840/2160) / 0.8). If you have a 2.35 (or similar) screen, you can then use the Pro's "Output Shrink" feature to reduce the vertical to 2.35 aspect ratio (or your screen aspect ratio if not 2.35).

The Radiance Pro setup for a fixed anamorphic lens is just to set the output aspect ratio to the screen aspect ratio and use the Radiance Pro's "Output Shrink" feature (MENU.Output.Styles.Style0.Mask/Shrink.Shrink) to fit the image to the screen if needed. Make sure to do a Save after any changes you want to make permanent.

=====

NLS is not related directly to having an anamorphic lens since it depends only on the screen aspect ratio. Once the output aspect is correctly programmed, you can use NLS.

Using NLS is a two button sequence. For an anamorphic screen (typically 2.35 or 2.40) you just select the source aspect (16:9 or 4:3) and then press the NLS button. Note that for 4:3 source NLS stretches to 16:9 width, and for 16:9 source it stretches to screen width.

If you like the default settings for NLS, there is no setup. You can reprogram the settings for NLS which are the amount of stretch in the middle section (which is a constant horizontal stretch), the width of the center section, and if there will be some cropping at the top and/or bottom. Details for this are in the Radiance Pro manual on the Lumagen support/manuals page. NLS parameters are independently programmable on a per input aspect, per input memory, per input, basis.


----------



## jrp

littlemoses said:


> @jrp...
> 
> * So to me this boils down to the question if the TV is somehow interpreting the input differently or the radiance doing something that i don't understand. Oh and the radiance also acts as pattern generator (which should not be affected by the input matrix conversion at all?)


Most TVs and projectors do not support the HDMI P3RGB info frame flag, or P3 directly. So you should not expect turning on P3 to get you lower dE's initially.

P3 is only defined for RGB and then only *if* the TV/projector supports the HDMI P3 info frame flag.

Do not output HDR as HDR and instead use the Pro to "output HDR in a SDR container" if you want to use the P3 output color format.

If your TV/projector does not support P3 (or even if it does), I suggest using 4:2:2 output and then choosing the TV/projector color mode that gets you closet to P3. Then do the 3D LUT calibration.

Unless your TV/projector explicitly, and accurately, supports P3 RGB, a 3D LUT calibration will be required for this mode. If your TV/projector does not meet this criteria, do not use P3 output mode unless you also do a 3D LUT calibration.

If your TV/projector has only a Rec 709 Gamut, as almost all DLP projectors currently do, use the Pro's new matrix conversion to convert HDR output to Rec 709 (rather than P3). This will insure that colors that are reproducible within the Rec 709 Gamut are correct to the accuracy of the TV/projector. A 3D LUT calibration will further improve this accuracy.

If you select P3RGB output mode, the Radiance Pro internal patterns will be accurate. Since P3 is defined only for RGB, if you select P3 output mode for a different output color format they are not necessarily accurate. However, if you select 4:2:2 output mode, the Pro does not assert the P3RGB HDMI info frame flag (or HDR flag if you output HDR in a SDR container). So mathematically they should be pretty good since the Pro will convert the initial RGB pattern to YCbCr using the Rec 709 matrix, and then the TV/projector should convert the 4:2:2 YCbCr it receives back to RGB for display using the inverse Rec 709 matrix.


----------



## youngsyp

jrp said:


> Comments on HLG support:
> 
> The next release will split HDR10 and HLG in the Global.Video.SrcFormat EDID control menu (as well as the individual input menu where you can select "Use Global" or independently select to report HLG or not in the Pro's EDID back to sources). So once released you will be able to enable HDR10 but disable HLG in the Pro's EDID back to sources if you would like to.
> 
> For those who want to use the Pro for HLG tone mapping, note that you must choose the output format as "SDR" (2020, P3, or 709) and enable "HDR Mapping" in the output CMS1 (default) menu.
> 
> ====
> 
> We think the Pro allows you to dial in HLG better than TV/projectors, but this allows you an option to test our theory. As always we appreciate feedback on how we can improve the Radiance Pro, and we do listen to suggestions. In fact user feedback is why this new EDID feature is being added.


Thanks Jim.

Support send me a link to the new FW yesterday, I installed it and can confirm it works to perfection, as expected.


I should add that this and allowing the UB820 to perform the HLG > HDR conversion is merely a stop gap for me, until I understand the tone mapping capabilities of the Radiance Pro better. From the high level usage I've had of the IM features, I'm sure the Radiance Pro will do a better job.


Paul


----------



## jrp

We have posted a professionally developed Crestron Control Module. It is on our website here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control

We are not Crestron programmers and do not understand the internals of this control module. We can forward questions or bugs to the programmer should there be any.

This module has a virtual Lumagen remote page, and also parses the "report mode changes FullV2" (ZQI22 format) output strings for easier use by programmers.

If you use this module, please let us know how it goes, including any bugs.


----------



## littlemoses

I added some comments, thanks for the information so far.





jrp said:


> Most TVs and projectors do not support the HDMI P3RGB info frame flag, or P3 directly. So you should not expect turning on P3 to get you lower dE's initially.
> 
> 
> * When i turn on P3 (RGB or 4:2:2) i get the same bad results (dE > 4 for all colors). When P3 is not enabled i get a result which is (without any 3DLUT) really close to P3 and the dE values are already really good.
> 
> 
> 
> P3 is only defined for RGB and then only *if* the TV/projector supports the HDMI P3 info frame flag.
> 
> 
> * Understood, then i will only use P3 / 4:2:2 (however this gives me the same result on my TV :-/)
> 
> 
> Do not output HDR as HDR and instead use the Pro to "output HDR in a SDR container" if you want to use the P3 output color format.
> 
> 
> * I only use the "HDR in a SDR container" feature of the radiance (great work btw!!)
> 
> 
> If your TV/projector does not support P3 (or even if it does), I suggest using 4:2:2 output and then choosing the TV/projector color mode that gets you closet to P3. Then do the 3D LUT calibration.
> 
> 
> * I also tried that (P3 with 4:2:2) which gave me the same bad results as RGB. I actually tried a 3D LUT calibration which was also pretty useless.
> 
> 
> Unless your TV/projector explicitly, and accurately, supports P3 RGB, a 3D LUT calibration will be required for this mode. If your TV/projector does not meet this criteria, do not use P3 output mode unless you also do a 3D LUT calibration.
> 
> 
> * The plan was to switch to P3 and then do a 3D LUT calibration
> 
> 
> If your TV/projector has only a Rec 709 Gamut, as almost all DLP projectors currently do, use the Pro's new matrix conversion to convert HDR output to Rec 709 (rather than P3). This will insure that colors that are reproducible within the Rec 709 Gamut are correct to the accuracy of the TV/projector. A 3D LUT calibration will further improve this accuracy.
> 
> 
> * The TV allows to switch between different settings. One of them is DCI-P3. A profile against DCI-P3 and "native" mode did not show a difference (both are very "close" to P3, >95% coverage)
> 
> 
> If you select P3RGB output mode, the Radiance Pro internal patterns will be accurate. Since P3 is defined only for RGB, if you select P3 output mode for a different output color format they are not necessarily accurate. However, if you select 4:2:2 output mode, the Pro does not assert the P3RGB HDMI info frame flag (or HDR flag if you output HDR in a SDR container). So mathematically they should be pretty good since the Pro will convert the initial RGB pattern to YCbCr using the Rec 709 matrix, and then the TV/projector should convert the 4:2:2 YCbCr it receives back to RGB for display using the inverse Rec 709 matrix.
> 
> 
> * Is it possible that lightspace (as it will "upload" the test patterns to the radiance) is somehow the problem here then?


----------



## stefanop

Following bobof tips in post #3613 I've set AutoAspect to On and it works good 95% of times but I've go two remaining issues which I hope someone has already cleared:
1) When Radiance detects 1.85:1 movies it stretches horizontally with 1.85A and not with 1.85 as the movie would require.
2) When Radiance detects 1.33:1 TV-Series episodes (in DVD interlaced) it stretches horizontally with 1.78 and not with 1.33

With all other formats Radiance works beautifully!!


----------



## bobof

stefanop said:


> Following bobof tips in post #3613 I've set AutoAspect to On and it works good 95% of times but I've go two remaining issues which I hope someone has already cleared:
> 1) When Radiance detects 1.85:1 movies it stretches horizontally with 1.85A and not with 1.85 as the movie would require.
> 2) When Radiance detects 1.33:1 TV-Series episodes (in DVD interlaced) it stretches horizontally with 1.78 and not with 1.33


Do you have the Letterbox Zoom option disabled in the auto aspect menus? (it defaults to enabled) (that helped me out, but my screen is different aspect so my cases were different).


----------



## jrp

stefanop said:


> Following bobof tips in post #3613 I've set AutoAspect to On and it works good 95% of times but I've go two remaining issues which I hope someone has already cleared:
> 1) When Radiance detects 1.85:1 movies it stretches horizontally with 1.85A and not with 1.85 as the movie would require.
> 2) When Radiance detects 1.33:1 TV-Series episodes (in DVD interlaced) it stretches horizontally with 1.78 and not with 1.33
> 
> With all other formats Radiance works beautifully!!


Thanks for the feedback.

I am actually out on vacation and so cannot check if there is a way to select 1.85A rather than 1.85 for auto-aspect, but I do not think there is. If you want effectively "1.85A" for this, you should be able to use the "input sizing" for the 1.85 input aspect to adjust the image to get what you want.

The 4:3 NLS not using 4:3 correctly sounds like a Pro software bug. Do you have the latest software release on your Radiance Pro? I seem to recall a bug like this but thought we had it sorted. I will ask Patrick about this.

Save any changes you want to be permanent.


----------



## littlemoses

Htnut2000 said:


> I think your problem is switching the color space on the Pro to P3 SDR before profiling the display
> 
> I found that the procedure that worked for me is to use REC 709 for generating the profile
> 
> After you have generated the LUT, you can switch the Pro output space to P3 and it should work correctly



I would not expect this to work. I think that my understanding of what a colourspace actually is (or better, how it is represented) is somehow wrong. I would expect that switching to P3 (4:2:2, which, as jrp pointed out uses a Rec.709 matrix to convert from RGB to 4:2:2) still gives me the same results on my TV as leaving it on "standard output" (which is Rec 709).


----------



## stefanop

jrp said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I am actually out on vacation and so cannot check if there is a way to select 1.85A rather than 1.85 for auto-aspect, but I do not think there is. If you want effectively "1.85A" for this, you should be able to use the "input sizing" for the 1.85 input aspect to adjust the image to get what you want.
> 
> The 4:3 NLS not using 4:3 correctly sounds like a Pro software bug. Do you have the latest software release on your Radiance Pro? I seem to recall a bug like this but thought we had it sorted. I will ask Patrick about this.
> 
> Save any changes you want to be permanent.


Hello Jim,

glad having an answer directly from you!
No the firmware is out of date because with a recent one I had problems with HDR movies having random blue pixels around the images and so I downgraded the firmware 'til the blue pixel problems vanished. I'll try the latest one published in your website some days ago and I'll let you know.
Thank you, have a nice Holiday.


----------



## stefanop

Normally 1.85 Movies are letterboxed inside a 1.78 raster, so for people like me having 2.40:1 screens, pressing ALT+1.85 results in having a perfectly fitted 1.85 movie without crops with lateral black bars. Actually Auto Aspect in Radiance selects 1.85 which only stretches horizontally but not vertically, to me it should select ALT+1.85.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Does anyone have experience with a TIVO Bolt OTA with the Lumagen Radiance Pro?

I like the Bolt because you can set video output to output native rate 720p and 1080i of your OTA local HD channels.

I also set the Bolt to video output 4k 24/30/60p per native content frame rate. This works for Netflix and Amazon Prime apps. I tried it for the Youtube app, which I've read outputs in 4k, but it will only output in 1080
On Youtube there's some 4k 60p HDR video. I set the Bolt to video output everything in 4k 60, also tried "Auto", but again the Youtube 4k video output in 1080p only.

Is this anything to do with the Radiance Pro and needing a firmware upgrade? Or just TIVO sucks on this? Note that from what I can see thanks to Radiance Pro's info screen Bolt will not output any HDR.

Frankly, not a problem for me really, because I am using an Apple TV 4k for 4k and 4k HDR streaming anyway at least on Netflix and Amazon Prime. But Apple TV 4k is not 4k for Youtube and the TIVO Bolt supposedly is.

And when I set the Bolt to output only 4k 60p, where its supposed to scale everything to that rate, the Radiance Pro info screen shows its receiving only 1080p from the Bolt regardless of whether its Amazon Prime, Netflix 4k video or Youtube 4k video. What gives? Isn't the Bolt supposed to recognize the Radiance Pro is 4k 60p cable and output that rate to the Radiance Pro (I have the 18 Gb output cards for the Radiance Pro and its set 
to output 4k 60p when it receives that video signal).


----------



## jrp

stefanop said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> glad having an answer directly from you!
> No the firmware is out of date because with a recent one I had problems with HDR movies having random blue pixels around the images and so I downgraded the firmware 'til the blue pixel problems vanished. I'll try the latest one published in your website some days ago and I'll let you know.
> Thank you, have a nice Holiday.


We just posted a new release (110918) which has some auto-aspect fixes that hopefully will fix your 4:3 auto-aspect bug.

This release also has a faster FPGA load and so should not suffer from the timing issues you saw in a recent release. Hopefully anyway. The timing tools for our FPGA are not perfect and it is possible for them to report all is well while there still is an issue with a small fraction of FPGAs.


----------



## jrp

Steve Bruzonsky:

Make sure you have not programmed the Radiance Pro to report "HDCP 1.X" rather than "HDCP 2.2" capability. If you have the Pro report HDCP 1.X all common 4k sources, including the BOLT, would limit their output to 1080p. You can insure all inputs report HDCP 2.2 with MENU 0829 and a Save.

Also make sure you have not programmed the Pro EDID to report only up to 1080p in the Input Options HDMI setup menu.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> We just posted a new release (110918) which has some auto-aspect fixes that hopefully will fix your 4:3 auto-aspect bug.
> 
> This release also has a faster FPGA load and so should not suffer from the timing issues you saw in a recent release. Hopefully anyway. The timing tools for our FPGA are not perfect and it is possible for them to report all is well while there still is an issue with a small fraction of FPGAs.


Just out of interest Jim, how are you getting on with the frame-by-frame intensity mapping? Do you still envisage a 2018 Q4 initial release for this, as mentioned previously?


----------



## stefanop

jrp said:


> We just posted a new release (110918) which has some auto-aspect fixes that hopefully will fix your 4:3 auto-aspect bug.
> 
> This release also has a faster FPGA load and so should not suffer from the timing issues you saw in a recent release. Hopefully anyway. The timing tools for our FPGA are not perfect and it is possible for them to report all is well while there still is an issue with a small fraction of FPGAs.


Very good! Now 4:3 works perfectly. It starts stretched in a 1.78 raster and after a couple of seconds...voilà...Radiance switches to 4:3. Well done!!!
It suddenly remain the problems with 1.85 movies but I'll send you an email with the snapshots of the images on the screen so you can better see what happens.
Thank you Jim great work


----------



## Eventidal

Wookii said:


> Just out of interest Jim, how are you getting on with the frame-by-frame intensity mapping? Do you still envisage a 2018 Q4 initial release for this, as mentioned previously?


This would be an awesome x-mas gift for us Pro owners!!


----------



## jrp

Wookii said:


> Just out of interest Jim, how are you getting on with the frame-by-frame intensity mapping? Do you still envisage a 2018 Q4 initial release for this, as mentioned previously?


We are making progress on dynamic tone mapping.

The algorithm I did blends the "2500 nit" parameter set based on the calculated data from the source material.

Pat is working how to calculate the best blend factor for each scene. It is rather difficult.

We may release this in stages:
1) Use the low-nit and high-nit blend function with the reported source MaxCLL. This will improve the current tone mapping since each movie will have tone map tailored for its reported MaxCLL
2) Add in something for AppleTV 4K which converts Dolby Vision titles to HDR10, and then changes the reported MaxCLL every 30 seconds with absolutely no intelligence about changing at appropriate times. As a side note what Apple should fix this so the AppleTV 4k changes the HDR10 Metadata on a frame basis to match the DV frame MaxCLL equivalent data. Then the data would make sense.
3) Initial dynamic tone mapping release
4) on-going tuning since this is a hard nut to crack. 

I am hoping the first stage would be in the next week or two.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 111018*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 111018*
Fix for 1.85 image based auto aspect incorrectly selecting wrong aspect (anamorphic 1.85). 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> 2) Add in something for AppleTV 4K which converts Dolby Vision titles to HDR10, and then changes the reported MaxCLL every 30 seconds with absolutely no intelligence about changing at appropriate times. As a side note what Apple should fix this so the AppleTV 4k changes the HDR10 Metadata on a frame basis to match the DV frame MaxCLL equivalent data. Then the data would make sense.


Re: this; it is hard to see what makes most sense; as it is just defective output really. From my point of view what would appear to be most logical for dealing with bad sources would be would be to allow complete disregard of the incoming metadata, replacing it (if it is still somehow used) with some user configurable data. It would be nice to be able to save this and have it permanent for a given input. It might also be nice to be able to carry on using the temporary override (not sure if this could make it into the HDR menu you can access using the cursors during HDR playback, instead of using the menu xxxx short code for this.

I'd probably prefer the above to the current workaround which I'm still a little unsure of. In discussions with Patrick I think it is possible (though I haven't tried to find an example) that the current workaround could end up ignoring bona-fide metadata updates from a well mannered source (eg if you had a source which really did need to switch metadata from one title to another, and it didn't change refresh or resolution in the intervening time - I think that would trip up the current workaround and swallow the metadata change).


----------



## stefanop

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 111018*
> Fix for 1.85 image based auto aspect incorrectly selecting wrong aspect (anamorphic 1.85).
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Thank you Mike_WI,
Auto Aspect now works perfectly with every ratio in the right way. Well done!!!


I'd like to give you an input:
With AutoAspect set to HDMI+Image is it possible having in the future a customizable time buffer before triggering the recognized ratio? This would avoid Radiance bouncing between formats every time a little "imperfection" appears on the screen. Example: I'm watching John Wick (2.40:1 movie) in a 2.40:1 projection screen. If I'd want to change language or subtitles, I press LANG or SUB buttons on Oppo RC and on screen appears a partially visible selection tools (partially visible because of the format of my screen). Radiance recognizes graphichs outside the current format and triggers 1.78. As soon as language selection tools disappears, Radiance recognizes a 2.40:1 format and triggers 2.40. Sometime in very dark sequences Radiance triggers 2.35 and after a while it returns to 2.40. This is very annoying.
If you could set a time buffer of 10, 20 or 30 seconds, while watching a movie when Radiance detects the necessity of triggering a new format,waits 10, 20 or 30 seconds and if the condition still persists then it triggers the new format otherway it stays in the current format and reset the counter.


----------



## Mike_WI

stefanop said:


> Thank you Mike_WI,
> Auto Aspect now works perfectly with every ratio in the right way. Well done!!!
> 
> 
> I'd like to give you an input:
> With AutoAspect set to HDMI+Image is it possible having in the future a customizable time buffer before triggering the recognized ratio? This would avoid Radiance bouncing between formats every time a little "imperfection" appears on the screen. Example: I'm watching John Wick (2.40:1 movie) in a 2.40:1 projection screen. If I'd want to change language or subtitles, I press LANG or SUB buttons on Oppo RC and on screen appears a partially visible selection tools (partially visible because of the format of my screen). Radiance recognizes graphichs outside the current format and triggers 1.78. As soon as language selection tools disappears, Radiance recognizes a 2.40:1 format and triggers 2.40. Sometime in very dark sequences Radiance triggers 2.35 and after a while it returns to 2.40. This is very annoying.
> If you could set a time buffer of 10, 20 or 30 seconds, while watching a movie when Radiance detects the necessity of triggering a new format,waits 10, 20 or 30 seconds and if the condition still persists then it triggers the new format otherway it stays in the current format and reset the counter.


Just FYI that I'm just posting the publicly available FW updates so everyone (including myself) sees them and we are talking about the same things.
I don't work for Lumagen or know anything more than other forum users.


----------



## Wookii

Mike_WI said:


> Just FYI that I'm just posting the publicly available FW updates so everyone (including myself) sees them and we are talking about the same things.
> I don't work for Lumagen or know anything more than other forum users.


 . . . and please continue to do so Mike, it is appreciated and is the main way I find out about a newly released FW.


----------



## jrp

stefanop said:


> With AutoAspect set to HDMI+Image is it possible having in the future a customizable time buffer before triggering the recognized ratio? This would avoid Radiance bouncing between formats every time a little "imperfection" appears on the screen. Example: I'm watching John Wick (2.40:1 movie) in a 2.40:1 projection screen. If I'd want to change language or subtitles, I press LANG or SUB buttons on Oppo RC and on screen appears a partially visible selection tools (partially visible because of the format of my screen). Radiance recognizes graphics outside the current format and triggers 1.78. As soon as language selection tools disappears, Radiance recognizes a 2.40:1 format and triggers 2.40. Sometime in very dark sequences Radiance triggers 2.35 and after a while it returns to 2.40. This is very annoying.
> If you could set a time buffer of 10, 20 or 30 seconds, while watching a movie when Radiance detects the necessity of triggering a new format,waits 10, 20 or 30 seconds and if the condition still persists then it triggers the new format otherway it stays in the current format and reset the counter.


I consider the improvements to auto-aspect we have done recently to be bug fixes. We prioritize bug fixes very high. Your suggestion of programmable detect time is a feature enhancement and so while we can add it to the under consideration list it would get lower priority. Most people requesting enhancement of the auto-aspect are asking for faster response for auto aspect, and your request for 10 or more seconds delay is new. It is of course a valid request and we can consider it, but at a lower priority.

It might actually be that for this case the better solution is the fast detect so that when you access your language select the auto-aspect detects this and quickly changes aspect so you see the language menu, but once it disappears the Pro would detect this and quickly change back to the movie's detected aspect ratio.

My suggestion (at least for now) is when you select the language tool, etc., that when it disappears, manually select the 2.35 (or 2.40) aspect and the Pro will immediately revert to 2.35 and (if "sticky override is off) restart auto-aspect. You could alternately select "sticky override" in the auto-aspect menu. If you do this when you select 2.35 (or 2.40) the auto-aspect disengages until you re-select the input, or select a different input. So for the rest of the movie the aspect would be constant and then you re-select the input at the end of the movie to re-engage auto-aspect.


----------



## bobof

stefanop said:


> Thank you Mike_WI,
> Auto Aspect now works perfectly with every ratio in the right way. Well done!!!
> 
> 
> I'd like to give you an input:
> With AutoAspect set to HDMI+Image is it possible having in the future a customizable time buffer before triggering the recognized ratio? This would avoid Radiance bouncing between formats every time a little "imperfection" appears on the screen. Example: I'm watching John Wick (2.40:1 movie) in a 2.40:1 projection screen. If I'd want to change language or subtitles, I press LANG or SUB buttons on Oppo RC and on screen appears a partially visible selection tools (partially visible because of the format of my screen). Radiance recognizes graphichs outside the current format and triggers 1.78. As soon as language selection tools disappears, Radiance recognizes a 2.40:1 format and triggers 2.40. Sometime in very dark sequences Radiance triggers 2.35 and after a while it returns to 2.40. This is very annoying.
> If you could set a time buffer of 10, 20 or 30 seconds, while watching a movie when Radiance detects the necessity of triggering a new format,waits 10, 20 or 30 seconds and if the condition still persists then it triggers the new format otherway it stays in the current format and reset the counter.


I guess the flipside to this though is that this might (with the current algorithm) make it take a really long time to get into aspect, or never get there at all.

I think it works by having to "see" the active aspect continuously for a certain amount of time, then switching. I think the movies that currently appear very slow to switch have slightly noisy bars, which means you only get enough continuous time with black bars every so often. If you extend the amount of sampled time then you might make it really hard to get into a new aspect ratio as you might never get enough time with black bars.

Having said that the black bar detection perhaps should accept that the bars won't always be perfectly black (I don't know how black it expects them to be at the moment). I mean, the bars on the AppleTV Netflix SDR output look black enough to my blind eyes (yet usually don't trigger the detection).


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Re: this; it is hard to see what makes most sense; as it is just defective output really. From my point of view what would appear to be most logical for dealing with bad sources would be would be to allow complete disregard of the incoming metadata, replacing it (if it is still somehow used) with some user configurable data. It would be nice to be able to save this and have it permanent for a given input. It might also be nice to be able to carry on using the temporary override (not sure if this could make it into the HDR menu you can access using the cursors during HDR playback, instead of using the menu xxxx short code for this.
> 
> I'd probably prefer the above to the current workaround which I'm still a little unsure of. In discussions with Patrick I think it is possible (though I haven't tried to find an example) that the current workaround could end up ignoring bona-fide metadata updates from a well mannered source (eg if you had a source which really did need to switch metadata from one title to another, and it didn't change refresh or resolution in the intervening time - I think that would trip up the current workaround and swallow the metadata change).


The current work-around for DV titles coming in as HDR10 from the AppleTV is temporary until dynamic tone mapping is complete. Since the AppleTV 4k changes to MaxCLL are done in a nonsensical way we do plan to (mostly) ignore the MaxCLL reported by the AppleTV 4k. Note that this applies to all HDR sources once Dynamic MaxCLL calculation and Dynamic Tone Mapping are complete. 

When I say "mostly ignore" reported MaxCLL, I mean that we will likely still use the reported MaxCLL as a "hint" especially when HDR starts up. How this "hint" might be applied is TBD.

We are also discussing a dynamic tone mapping feature that allows the viewer to enter some "hints" about the current movie/program that would bias the Dynamic Tone Mapping in a way to better tailor it for the specific content. The "hints" would be optional and default numbers would be used if the "hints" are not entered. The "hints" would be based on profile data for the entire movie/program. What these "hints" entail and how they are applied is TBD and it may well be the Pro can itself create these the best hints for the dynamic tone mapping and we would not have a viewer hint feature.


----------



## Mike_WI

Appreciate @jrp commentary.
I have an Apple TV 4K in box ready to install in my HT room, so very interested in the ATV developments.


----------



## stefanop

jrp said:


> I consider the improvements to auto-aspect we have done recently to be bug fixes. We prioritize bug fixes very high. Your suggestion of programmable detect time is a feature enhancement and so while we can add it to the under consideration list it would get lower priority. Most people requesting enhancement of the auto-aspect are asking for faster response for auto aspect, and your request for 10 or more seconds delay is new. It is of course a valid request and we can consider it, but at a lower priority.
> 
> It might actually be that for this case the better solution is the fast detect so that when you access your language select the auto-aspect detects this and quickly changes aspect so you see the language menu, but once it disappears the Pro would detect this and quickly change back to the movie's detected aspect ratio.
> 
> My suggestion (at least for now) is when you select the language tool, etc., that when it disappears, manually select the 2.35 (or 2.40) aspect and the Pro will immediately revert to 2.35 and (if "sticky override is off) restart auto-aspect. You could alternately select "sticky override" in the auto-aspect menu. If you do this when you select 2.35 (or 2.40) the auto-aspect disengages until you re-select the input, or select a different input. So for the rest of the movie the aspect would be constant and then you re-select the input at the end of the movie to re-engage auto-aspect.


Yes Jim, Auto Aspect now is bug fixed and everything is working in the right way.
As regards my situation with Oppo lang-menu and 2.40:1 screen in an hour I'll give sticky-option a try. Thank you for your advice.


----------



## jbrinegar

A basic newb question on someone interested in a radiance pro:

It appears after reading through the thread most people input their sources (4k blu ray player, apple tv, xbox, etc) into the input of the lumagen, and then run the video output to their projector and the audio separately to the AVR. 

Is this the best way to do it? Would that remove the avr's osd?

Is it ok to run all my sources to the avr first, then run a single hdmi output to the lumagen, then output to the projector?

My curent equipment (also in my sig)

Sony 885es

Anthem mrx1120

Panny 820/apple 4ktv/xbox one x/ps4 pro/direct tv (1080 only)

Thank you!


----------



## dinamigym

jbrinegar said:


> A basic newb question on someone interested in a radiance pro:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears after reading through the thread most people input their sources (4k blu ray player, apple tv, xbox, etc) into the input of the lumagen, and then run the video output to their projector and the audio separately to the AVR.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the best way to do it? Would that remove the avr's osd?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it ok to run all my sources to the avr first, then run a single hdmi output to the lumagen, then output to the projector?
> 
> 
> 
> My curent equipment (also in my sig)
> 
> 
> 
> Sony 885es
> 
> 
> 
> Anthem mrx1120
> 
> 
> 
> Panny 820/apple 4ktv/xbox one x/ps4 pro/direct tv (1080 only)
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!



It would remove ability to see AVR OSD. If you run all sources to AVR and then video out of AVR to Lumagen just make sure you disable all video scaling and processing in AVR. Many do it that way in order to maintain ability to see AVR OSD. Only other possible downside is that it introduces another level of HDMI switching to the chain and possible sync issues but if that is not a problem then you are golden!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

jbrinegar said:


> A basic newb question on someone interested in a radiance pro:
> 
> It appears after reading through the thread most people input their sources (4k blu ray player, apple tv, xbox, etc) into the input of the lumagen, and then run the video output to their projector and the audio separately to the AVR.
> 
> Is this the best way to do it? Would that remove the avr's osd?
> 
> Is it ok to run all my sources to the avr first, then run a single hdmi output to the lumagen, then output to the projector?
> 
> My curent equipment (also in my sig)
> 
> Sony 885es
> 
> Anthem mrx1120
> 
> Panny 820/apple 4ktv/xbox one x/ps4 pro/direct tv (1080 only)


Can't comment on that particular kit combination; but if you do run the sources to the AVR then a single HDMI to the Lumagen bear in mind the Lumagen can assign "virtual" inputs to the same physical HDMI input, so you can still have different "per input" settings even though everything is routed through the same physical HDMI connector.


----------



## dlinsley

I run all my sources into the Radiance and then a single 18G output to my Anthem MRX1120 input 1, and the output of the Anthem to my projector (JVC RS600). This works great, without issue, and allows me to see the volume / sound mode etc. I have tried placing the Anthem first, but HDMI sync across channel changes of my DirecTV box are faster via the Radiance.

Sources: Oppo 203, Roku Ultra, DirecTV C61K, HD-DVD


----------



## jbrinegar

^
^
^
Thanks everyone, great info! Much appreciated


----------



## jrp

jbrinegar said:


> A basic newb question on someone interested in a radiance pro:
> 
> It appears after reading through the thread most people input their sources (4k blu ray player, apple tv, xbox, etc) into the input of the Lumagen, and then run the video output to their projector and the audio separately to the AVR.
> 
> Is this the best way to do it? Would that remove the avr's osd?


Your question prompted me to once again touch on not only the answer to your question, but also to bring up HDMI issues and how to avoid them since audio is the weakest link in the HDMI food chain.

We recommend connecting sources to the Radiance Pro and let it do the switching. The advantage of this is often more reliable and always faster video switching. In addition as new features are added (for example HLG) that might not be supported in the AVR you would get to use these if the Pro is doing the switching.

The disadvantage of letting the Pro do the switching is you loose access to the AVR's OSD. However, you can generally connect the AVR output to an unused input on the Pro to be able to select it to see the AVR OSD, but there is a chance this will cause an HDMI HDCP authentication loop. Generally this has not been an issue with the current generation of 4k AVRs but just yesterday we had an email about what we believe is an authentication loop with an audio processor. Note: The authentication loop is the output of the Pro to the AVR authenticating HDCP, which causes the AVR to authenticate its output going to the Pro which can then cause the Pro to again authenticate the connection to the AVR, etc.. This is not necessarily a fault in either product, but a result of the timing and function of the HDMI HDCP authentication. We try to eliminate the loop issue if we can get the equipment in that has this authentication loop issue with the Radiance Pro.

[EDIT] Or switch with the Pro, output through the AVR to the projector/TV. Since we recommend the Pro do Tone Mapping and "output HDR in a SDR container" the AVR only need to support SDR modes. Switching is a little slower this way but you get to use the AVR OSD.

==== 

There have been a few high-end audio processors that have had issues with the Pro audio output. These have been (as best we can determine) that the audio processor is not processing all needed audio interrupts for the Pro's "audio only" output (and instead depending on video interrupts to know when to change the audio mode which does not work with an "audio only" stream since the blank video carrying the audio does not change), or HDMI circuit designs that need an active cable because they cannot deal with the fast edge rates of the Radiance Pro audio only output. Or, as another example, one high end audio product's switch board (which is used in a number of high end audio products) was reporting that the 6 Channel PCM it was receiving was 6 channel PCM as it should, but only processing the left and right channels. Patrick figured out how to have the Pro output kick the audio processor switch board just right to wake it up and get it to not only report the 6 channels, but also to process all of them. Fortunately we have now worked around the audio processor audio issues we know about. I mention these in case something new pops up with a different product.

Finally, as always, I strongly recommend 18 GHz Certified HDMI cables for all connections. This includes the "audio only" output from the Pro even though it is running at an HD rate. This is because transmission-line theory says it is the edge rate that matters most for required cable quality, rather than video rate (which does matter but not as much). Also avoid passive HDMI cables less than 2 meters long (especially for audio) as the signal can be too hot due to cable EQ. I recommend Tributaries "Certified" 2 to 3 meter UHDP passives, or for the long run from the Pro output the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" cables.


----------



## SJHT

I also run everything into the Lumagen Pro and have the Pro output going to my projector. I also have the output from my AVP going to a second input on the projector, but frankly never use it. May depend on your AVR. Mine has a web interface for everything. My control system gives me basic info (e.g. volume, input, input signal format, audio mode, etc...). There are many control systems that do this for general info you might need while using the system (vs. setup activities). SJ


----------



## dlinsley

westmd said:


> Can anybody help me with configuring the NLS? Background is that I have ordered a Paladin DCR for the new JVC projectors with 17/9 native 4k panel. As they are postponed into next year I already want to use the lens with my existing JVC X7000 16/9 panel. That means I have to configure the stretch / output so that the lens works again in my setup. Has anybody done this?





msamblanet said:


> I’m waiting on a jvc preorder also...
> 
> You should not need NLS - adjust your image with lens to fill screen height with the lens. Then just configure the Lumagen’s output-style with the current proj+lens aspect ratio of 2.22 (16:9 x 1.25) and it should handle the rest.
> 
> If you want to avoid the slight letterbox left for scope movies, you could add in a second lens memory to zoom in for scope to take the 2.22 -> full screen width...


 @westmd did you get this working? I'm in a similar boat and thinking about getting the DCR now to play with my RS600 while I wait for the RS3000.


----------



## giomania

Is anyone using a Denon AVR-X3500H with the Pro?

I am experiencing intermittent audio/video blanking that lasts around 10 seconds with multiple sources. 

I also have a 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR, so was thinking that component may be the cause. I am using an HDMI voltage inserter on the cable at the Pro output, because without it the video signal flashes repeatedly. I attempted to move the HDMI voltage inserter to the sink end (the AVR input) yesterday, but that caused constant audio issues.

I haven’t made any changes to the AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue.

Any input/advice is appreciated.

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dinamigym

giomania said:


> Is anyone using a Denon AVR-X3500H with the Pro?
> 
> I am experiencing intermittent audio/video blanking that lasts around 10 seconds with multiple sources.
> 
> I also have a 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR, so was thinking that component may be the cause. I am using an HDMI voltage inserter on the cable at the Pro output, because without it the video signal flashes repeatedly. I attempted to move the HDMI voltage inserter to the sink end (the AVR input) yesterday, but that caused constant audio issues.
> 
> I haven’t made any changes to the AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue.
> 
> Any input/advice is appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




I use that exact cable and length with Pro and Marantz 8805. I don’t use a voltage inserter and don’t experience any of that. Is the long run to your Display or AVR?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

dinamigym said:


> I use that exact cable and length with Pro and Marantz 8805. I don’t use a voltage inserter and don’t experience any of that. Is the long run to your Display or AVR?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The cable goes from the output of the pro to the input of the AVR. 

I’m guessing the HDMI circuitry is different between the X3500H, and the 8805, but if you could post your AVR HDMI settings then I will mirror them.

Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dinamigym

giomania said:


> The cable goes from the output of the pro to the input of the AVR.
> 
> I’m guessing the HDMI circuitry is different between the X3500H, and the 8805, but if you could post your AVR HDMI settings then I will mirror them.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




No problem I will send when I get home this afternoon. I have my AVR running to an input on the Pro and the Pro output to my projector. Did you happen to try pro out to Display and see if that gives a different result?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

dinamigym said:


> No problem I will send when I get home this afternoon. I have my AVR running to an input on the Pro and the Pro output to my projector. Did you happen to try pro out to Display and see if that gives a different result?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I don’t think I tested that path since I installed the Pro. If the AVR settings don’t help, then I will.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> Is anyone using a Denon AVR-X3500H with the Pro?
> 
> I am experiencing intermittent audio/video blanking that lasts around 10 seconds with multiple sources.
> 
> I also have a 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR, so was thinking that component may be the cause. I am using an HDMI voltage inserter on the cable at the Pro output, because without it the video signal flashes repeatedly. I attempted to move the HDMI voltage inserter to the sink end (the AVR input) yesterday, but that caused constant audio issues.
> 
> I haven’t made any changes to the AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue.
> 
> Any input/advice is appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





dinamigym said:


> I use that exact cable and length with Pro and Marantz 8805. I don’t use a voltage inserter and don’t experience any of that. Is the long run to your Display or AVR?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





giomania said:


> The cable goes from the output of the pro to the input of the AVR.
> 
> I’m guessing the HDMI circuitry is different between the X3500H, and the 8805, but if you could post your AVR HDMI settings then I will mirror them.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





dinamigym said:


> No problem I will send when I get home this afternoon. I have my AVR running to an input on the Pro and the Pro output to my projector. Did you happen to try pro out to Display and see if that gives a different result?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





giomania said:


> I don’t think I tested that path since I installed the Pro. If the AVR settings don’t help, then I will.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks for the PM with the pictures. My settings are below, and I have marked in bold text the items that are different from your settings.

Setup => Video => HDMI Setup
*HDMI Audio Out is not able to be selected*, as I have ARC enabled below.
*Vertical Stretch is not an option on my AVR*
*HDMI Pass Through is "On"*
*-Pass Through Source is "Last"*
*-RC Source Select is "Power On + Source"*
HDMI Control is "Off"
*-ARC is "On"*
The following settings not able to be selected because I have HDMI Control Off, but I will list them anyway.
-TV Audio Switching is "On"
-Power Off Control is "All"
-Power Saving is "Off"
-Smart Menu is "Off"

Setup => Video => Output Settings
HDMI Video Output is "Auto (Dual)"
Video Mode is "Auto"
Video Conversion is "On"
i/p Scaler is "Off"
The following settings not able to be selected because I have i/p Scaler Off, but I will list them anyway.
-Resolution (analog) is "Auto"
-Resolution (HDMI) is "Auto"
-Sharpness is "Off"
-Progressive Mode is "Off"
-Aspect Ratio is "16:9"

Setup => Video => On Screen Display
Volume is "Bottom"
Info is "On"
Now Playing is "Always On"

Setup => Video => 4K Signal Format
I didn't see this in your message, but *4K Signal Format is "Enhanced"* on my AVR.

Setup => Video => TV Format
Format is "NTSC"

Last night my son watched a movie by himself, and said he did not notice the intermittent audio/video blanking, so maybe the firmware update I applied to the Radiance Pro on Wednesday changed something for my particular setup. We will have to wait and see now.

Mark


----------



## dinamigym

Last night my son watched a movie by himself, and said he did not notice the intermittent audio/video blanking, so maybe the firmware update I applied to the Radiance Pro on Wednesday changed something for my particular setup. We will have to wait and see now.



Mark[/QUOTE]



Glad to hear...yes, I find it’s ultra important to keep up to date with the latest firmware. Jim & the guys always seem to be improving & fixing things real time!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hey guys, got strange issue.
I'm playing ripped UHD disc from OPPO UDP-203 Network, its DTS VOL 22 demo disc, and it sends audio as Stereo, audio track is DTS-HD 7.1 however it does send it as Stereo.
I'm hooking it via Lumagen and Audio goes from Lumagen to my AVR DENON X3500H, I know this is not AVR issue as I can play the same source from X9S ZIDOO box and it does play in DTS-HD and not in Stereo, X9S is hooked via Lumagen and the same cable goes from HDMI OUT 1 to feed the audio, and AVR does receive it as DTS-HD.
Only from Oppo it does play stereo only, I've tried setting in Audio output settings to Bitstream, but absolutely the same, all movies are played in stereo. 
I have latest firmware checked via network update.
Did anyone experience similar? Is it OPPO issue or this can be Lumagen issue?


----------



## giomania

I had this problem where all my sources were sending two channel audio.

the fix was to use the shortcut (menu, 0943) which will report all audio formats back to the sources.

If that works, then you have to save.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> I had this problem where all my sources were sending two channel audio.
> 
> the fix was to use the shortcut (menu, 0943) which will report all audio formats back to the sources.
> 
> If that works, then you have to save.


The issue described I believe usually occurs if you don't have a device connected to the Audio only HDMI output, and are only using the Video+Audio HDMI outs - it causes a stereo only EDID to be sent to the sources. Is that what you are doing?

This seems counter intuitive to me; in the absence of a device attached to the Audio HDMI out I would have thought it would make more sense to copy the Audio part of the EDID from the active video HDMI. Having said that the workaround is relatively simple (menu command mentioned).


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> There have been a few high-end audio processors that have had issues with the Pro audio output. These have been (as best we can determine) that the audio processor is not processing all needed audio interrupts for the Pro's "audio only" output (and instead depending on video interrupts to know when to change the audio mode which does not work with an "audio only" stream since the blank video carrying the audio does not change), or HDMI circuit designs that need an active cable because they cannot deal with the fast edge rates of the Radiance Pro audio only output. Or, as another example, one high end audio product's switch board (which is used in a number of high end audio products) was reporting that the 6 Channel PCM it was receiving was 6 channel PCM as it should, but only processing the left and right channels. Patrick figured out how to have the Pro output kick the audio processor switch board just right to wake it up and get it to not only report the 6 channels, but also to process all of them. Fortunately we have now worked around the audio processor audio issues we know about. I mention these in case something new pops up with a different product.
> 
> Finally, as always, I strongly recommend 18 GHz Certified HDMI cables for all connections. This includes the "audio only" output from the Pro even though it is running at an HD rate. This is because transmission-line theory says it is the edge rate that matters most for required cable quality, rather than video rate (which does matter but not as much). Also avoid passive HDMI cables less than 2 meters long (especially for audio) as the signal can be too hot due to cable EQ. I recommend Tributaries "Certified" 2 to 3 meter UHDP passives, or for the long run from the Pro output the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" cables.


Interesting.

I use a Monoprice certified 18 GHz HDMI cable from Radiance Pro audio only HDMI output to my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP. With the CBIVA having the prior HDMI 1.4 card, and now the current and latest HDMI 2.0 card, whenever I start up the SSP, I often find I need to turn it off from the back for a few seconds and then back on from the back, and then turn back on from standby on the front, to get an audio lock with DirecTV and sometimes other audio/AV sources as well. Jim, are you saying that this latest technology passive Tributaries HDMI cable may help this?


----------



## mikela

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hey guys, got strange issue.
> I'm playing ripped UHD disc from OPPO UDP-203 Network, its DTS VOL 22 demo disc, and it sends audio as Stereo, audio track is DTS-HD 7.1 however it does send it as Stereo.


There is an audio selection button on the Oppo remote which should allow you to switch music tracks.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

mikela said:


> There is an audio selection button on the Oppo remote which should allow you to switch music tracks.


I have already resolved that issue, this was Lumagen.
The input HDMI config for audio been set to Passback, but my output is set to output 2 , I've set to common and all worked as expected, so now it detects audio from oppo as needed.


claw said:


> I have that disc and when played from either my Oppo 203 or Panasonic UB820, my Denon X6400H reports DTS:X MSTR audio. Does the same issue occur if you play the physical disc instead of the UHD folder?
> 
> Update: I created a UHD folder backup of my disc and played it with my Oppo. AVR reports DTS:X MSTR just like it did for the disc. Option button on the Oppo remote shows just one audio format: DTS:HD MA 7.1.
> 
> Oppo audio is set to Bitstream.
> Secondary Audio is set to Off.


So now works great.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

giomania said:


> I had this problem where all my sources were sending two channel audio.
> 
> the fix was to use the shortcut (menu, 0943) which will report all audio formats back to the sources.
> 
> If that works, then you have to save.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hi Mark,

Thank you I've resolved that problem yesterday, exactly. This command sets to report common audio modes to all sources.
By default the Audio EDID is set to passback, this will only work when you connect Audio output from Output 1 on Lumagen to your AVR.
Now when I connected my Audio Output 1 to AVR, because I'm hooking from Monitor2 into Lumagen Input 3, I think there was that Loop issue described by Jim, so the work around was to hook Audio from Output 2 and Set Audio EDID to Report Common to all devices, this has resolved the audio problems for Oppo and also I'm able to see the Denon OSD and main menu from the Input 3 without Authentication loop issue.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> The issue described I believe usually occurs if you don't have a device connected to the Audio only HDMI output, and are only using the Video+Audio HDMI outs - it causes a stereo only EDID to be sent to the sources. Is that what you are doing?
> 
> This seems counter intuitive to me; in the absence of a device attached to the Audio HDMI out I would have thought it would make more sense to copy the Audio part of the EDID from the active video HDMI. Having said that the workaround is relatively simple (menu command mentioned).





SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thank you I've resolved that problem yesterday, exactly. This command sets to report common audio modes to all sources.
> By default the Audio EDID is set to passback, this will only work when you connect Audio output from Output 1 on Lumagen to your AVR.
> Now when I connected my Audio Output 1 to AVR, because I'm hooking from Monitor2 into Lumagen Input 3, I think there was that Loop issue described by Jim, so the work around was to hook Audio from Output 2 and Set Audio EDID to Report Common to all devices, this has resolved the audio problems for Oppo and also I'm able to see the Denon OSD and main menu from the Input 3 without Authentication loop issue.


Thanks guys. I always wondered why I needed to do this command to get multi-channel audio, and now I know.

Mark


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Thanks guys. I always wondered why I needed to do this command to get multi-channel audio, and now I know.


Yes, it is different I believe to how the 2143 used to work; if I'm honest I preferred the Audio EDID management setup in the older units as it was much more explicit; was nice to be able to arbitrarily toggle all the formats for a given input. The stereo thing got me when I first set up my unit, the Pro behaviour is quite counter-intuitive.


----------



## giomania

I noted in the test pattern tech tips it states that "The test patterns can be used for calibrating displays and 3D glasses.."

I researched this lightly, and did find in the Radiance (non-Pro) manual the below mention, but it would appear this is for CRT projectors, and perhaps modern displays do not require any calibration of 3D glasses? 

3D Glasses Adjust
When using the Radiance to control 3D glasses timing, such as with a CRT projector, this setting adjusts the timing offset of the 3D glasses. This delay is combined with the global delay setting under the MENU → Other → I/O Setup → 3D Glasses menu. This command has no effect if the 3D display is controlling the 3D glasses. 

In the event that calibrating 3D glasses is possible / required on modern displays, does anyone know which specific pattern(s) would be used for this, and how that is accomplished? I assume the display 3D settings would need to be adjusted while viewing the test patterns. 

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

Hi,

as far as you know, will a horizontal keystone be implemented in the PRO?

Thanks.


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> Is anyone using a Denon AVR-X3500H with the Pro?
> 
> I am experiencing intermittent audio/video blanking that lasts around 10 seconds with multiple sources.
> 
> I also have a 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR, so was thinking that component may be the cause. I am using an HDMI voltage inserter on the cable at the Pro output, because without it the video signal flashes repeatedly. I attempted to move the HDMI voltage inserter to the sink end (the AVR input) yesterday, but that caused constant audio issues.


I am probably duplicating other replies, but I recommend getting rid of the voltage-inserter between the Pro and the RUIPRO. The Pro has plenty of HDMI standby output power to drive the RUIPRO, and the inserter is nothing more than a discontinuity in the HDMI transmission lines. The discontinuity it creates may be the cause of your dropouts, and in any case is a bad idea for a 4k HDMI connection.

I recommend against fiber cables for connections carrying audio since they tend to have more jitter than metal only HDMI cables. I also recommend against such a long cable for audio. Audio is much more sensitive than video for HDMI. If you need to go 50 feet from the Pro for the output carrying audio I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" all metal cable. I do not have any jitter data on this versus the RUIPRO but I have noticed the HDMI connection locks faster using the UHDT than the RUIPRO. I believe this is in part due to it having less jitter, but might just be it is a clean signal. Either way I prefer the Tributaries Titan, especially for audio connections, while still recommending the RUIPRO as an excellent cable.

It sounds like you pass video through the AVR. I recommend the Pro drive the Projector/TV directly and not through the AVR. I suspect if you send video from the Pro to the TV/projector directly, and audio to the AVR, both using Titan cables, you will improve your reliability. Of course I cannot be certain, but this change in connectivity has resolved dropouts in other systems.


----------



## mikela

jrp said:


> If you need to go 50 feet from the Pro for the output carrying audio I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" all metal cable


What do you recommend for shorter distances...say 2 meters?


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> I am probably duplicating other replies, but I recommend getting rid of the voltage-inserter between the Pro and the RUIPRO. The Pro has plenty of HDMI standby output power to drive the RUIPRO, and the inserter is nothing more than a discontinuity in the HDMI transmission lines. The discontinuity it creates may be the cause of your dropouts, and in any case is a bad idea for a 4k HDMI connection.
> 
> 
> 
> I recommend against fiber cables for connections carrying audio since they tend to have more jitter than metal only HDMI cables. I also recommend against such a long cable for audio. Audio is much more sensitive than video for HDMI. If you need to go 50 feet from the Pro for the output carrying audio I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" all metal cable. I do not have any jitter data on this versus the RUIPRO but I have noticed the HDMI connection locks faster using the UHDT than the RUIPRO. I believe this is in part due to it having less jitter, but might just be it is a clean signal. Either way I prefer the Tributaries Titan, especially for audio connections, while still recommending the RUIPRO as an excellent cable.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you pass video through the AVR. I recommend the Pro drive the Projector/TV directly and not through the AVR. I suspect if you send video from the Pro to the TV/projector directly, and audio to the AVR, both using Titan cables, you will improve your reliability. Of course I cannot be certain, but this change in connectivity has resolved dropouts in other systems.




Thanks Jim.

I will try removing it again, but the two times I have tried to remove the voltage inserter previously, there is constant flashing of the signal on and off. I should probably try different HDMI inputs on the AVR to make it a thorough test. 

The reason for testing the other inputs is that Denon has recommended in the past with other AVR’s to use the HDMI input that is physically closest to the output to mitigate issues with 4K HDR source devices.

I want the AVR volume display on my TV and am willing to live with some compromises to achieve that goal.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## thrang

What do you say Jim, frame-based intensity mapping as a nice Christmas gift???


----------



## jrp

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I use a Monoprice certified 18 GHz HDMI cable from Radiance Pro audio only HDMI output to my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP. With the CBIVA having the prior HDMI 1.4 card, and now the current and latest HDMI 2.0 card, whenever I start up the SSP, I often find I need to turn it off from the back for a few seconds and then back on from the back, and then turn back on from standby on the front, to get an audio lock with DirecTV and sometimes other audio/AV sources as well. Jim, are you saying that this latest technology passive Tributaries HDMI cable may help this?


No, the Tributaries cables will not help with the problem you describe, unless you also have dropouts while watching a program. Then it might help. However I think your issue likely missing HDMI audio interrupts in the Theta.

If you have a 9 GHz output available use MENU 0943 and a save to "enable common audio formats" (if you have not already. Entering this if already enabled goes back to pass-back audio EDID from device on Output 1).

Then connect the 9 GHz output to the Theta, and enable both audio and video on that output using the Output Setup Menu, and then Save. If the issue with the Theta is missing HDMI audio interrupt processing, you should then get solid audio switching.

If this does not help try going back to the audio-only output but insert a 1-to-2 1080p HDMI splitter. Use the 2 meter Monoprice from the Pro to the splitter, and another Monoprice 2 meter from the splitter out 1 to the Theta. If this helps then the issue is a transmission line issue in the HDMI input of the Theta.

If neither helps email or call support. I get back from vacation on Monday. Feel free to call me next week.


----------



## jrp

mikela said:


> What do you recommend for shorter distances...say 2 meters?


For passive HDMI cables I recommend:

Always use 18 GHz Certified cable no matter the actual connection speed.

Never use less than a 2 meter passive. HDMI has static cable EQ which is designed for longer cable so the signal on a shorter cable can be too hot for the receiver. This is especially true for audio and I likely have one or more systems a month where going from a 1 meter to a two meter passive fixes the issues.

For 4k I recommend a 2 to 3 meter length using an 18 GHz HDMI cable.

I recommend against longer than 3 meter passives with some exceptions. This is actually more an input design issue in products than a cable issue. For example I have a number of tests using an eight-meter 18 GHz passive HDMI cable from sources to the Radiance Pro at 18 GHz and it passed my testing. However the same source and cable to TVs has not worked at 18 GHz. Note this is not an exhaustive test by any means. Also, please understand I do not recommend using an eight-meter passive for 18 GHz, but in some cases a 4 or 5 meter 18 GHz passive cable can be used for well designed products at 18 GHz.

[EDIT]: I see I didn't make specific recommendations. For 2 to 3 meter passive I recommend Tributaries UHDP cables. They are excellent both mechanically and electrically and not outrageously expensive. I really like the way the UHDP cables are retained in the HDMI jack. Based on how good I think they are Lumagen is now a dealer for Tributaries cables. I also recommend the Ethereal Velox, and the Monoprice 18 GHz certified HDMI cables. There are other good 18 GHz certified cables, but these are the three I recommend.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> What do you say Jim, frame-based intensity mapping as a nice Christmas gift???


I don't like to post schedules since things always take longer than expected.

That said, we are making progress on dynamic tone mapping. So there is a chance for the first "Alpha Level" dynamic tone mapping release will be this year. Certainly not a "schedule" and it may be into next year before we have this in a release. Sorry that's the best i can give as to time frame.

Note that as I have said before there will likely be ongoing tuning releases since this is a rather difficult task.


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> I noted in the test pattern tech tips it states that "The test patterns can be used for calibrating displays and 3D glasses.."
> 
> I researched this lightly, and did find in the Radiance (non-Pro) manual the below mention, but it would appear this is for CRT projectors, and perhaps modern displays do not require any calibration of 3D glasses?
> 
> 3D Glasses Adjust
> When using the Radiance to control 3D glasses timing, such as with a CRT projector, this setting adjusts the timing offset of the 3D glasses. This delay is combined with the global delay setting under the MENU → Other → I/O Setup → 3D Glasses menu. This command has no effect if the 3D display is controlling the 3D glasses.


This feature was specific to CRT projectors.

For digital projectors and TVs the 3D glasses timing is controlled by the projector or TV.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> I don't like to post schedules since things always take longer than expected.
> 
> That said, we are making progress on dynamic tone mapping. So there is a chance for the first "Alpha Level" dynamic tone mapping release will be this year. Certainly not a "schedule" and it may be into next year before we have this in a release. Sorry that's the best i can give as to time frame.
> 
> Note that as I have said before there will likely be ongoing tuning releases since this is a rather difficult task.


Alpha-level!? Not sure if that’s warm chestnuts or coals in our stockings...

But beggars can’t be choosers!

Thanks


----------



## Eventidal

Gianluca Vignini said:


> Hi,
> 
> as far as you know, will a horizontal keystone be implemented in the PRO?
> 
> Thanks.


I requested this a long time ago. The answer I got was: " It is not easy to implement"

For us cinemascope users that would be an absolute fantastic feature....


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 111518*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 111518*
Improves or fixes several deficits in image based auto aspect detection. 
Fix for sometimes missing MaxCll detection from HDR sources and also cases of not changing the colorspace when HDR/SDR changes occur. 
Added another rs232 report for only SDR/HDR under *Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup : Report changes*. 
If set to SDR/HDR 'S' or 'H' will be output on rs232 for SDR or HDR respectively. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware

EDIT:

** NOTE: Don't install 111518 ***

*Beta 111618*
Fixed saving bug in 111518. 
Improves or fixes several deficits in image based auto aspect detection. 
Fix for sometimes missing MaxCll detection from HDR sources and also cases of not changing the colorspace when HDR/SDR changes occur which were issues in 1101-111018 firmware. 
Added another rs232 report for only SDR/HDR under *Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup : Report changes*. 
If set to SDR/HDR 'S' or 'H' will be output on rs232 for SDR or HDR respectively. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


*Bug with 111518 *
Saving menu changes caused units to hang and corrupted the configuration. 
If you've updated to 111518 already then don't save any configuration changes and to update you'll need to do a bootloader update which means unplugging power, then replugging power and starting the update utility in ~10 seconds.


----------



## stefanop

Some problems. 1.85 aspect ratio doesn't work anymore, sometimes saving data configuration hangs the Radiance and you have to unplug from AC, image has a permanent black border in top and and bottom.
Tried to restore previous firmware but it hangs while "UsingFPGA loc00". I tried normal and Forced.
Does anybody have an idea how can I restore it to previous firmware?


----------



## stefanop

if it can be helpful, here is the log:

Status: Connect to Lumagen Video Processor...
Status: Set communication speed...
Status: Connected
Status: Checking firmware version...
Status: RX fw ver = 1161300, rd:01161300
Status: TX fw ver = 1000900, rd:01000900 txlen=286720
Status: NTX fw ver = 1001200, rd:01001200 txlen=286720
Status: 01001200 SW Rev:111518 Serial:3487 baud rate:115200
This updater is Rev:111018
This updater is Rev:111018
Status: Checking the mode of communication...
Status: We are in normal operation mode
Using FPGA loc:00
Status: erase failed.


----------



## stefanop

Now it can't definitely save configuration any more. It always hangs on "Press 'OK' to confirm saving configuration Saving…..please wait"
I have to unplug AC


----------



## Eventidal

You need to make a bootloader firmware restore.

1. Turn the Radiance power off by unplugging the AC power cord or unplugging the power cord from the back of the Radiance.
2. On the PC double click (run) the download utility.
3. Choose the correct Com port.
4. Plug in the Radiance power cord.
5. Within 10 seconds, click “Start” to begin the download.
6. The firmware update will start updating which can take a couple minutes. The PC
utility will finish and tell you when it’s done.
7. If the utility finishes with and error; just turn the Radiance off, then back on and
rerun the download utility


----------



## stefanop

Eventidal said:


> You need to make a bootloader firmware restore.
> 
> 1. Turn the Radiance power off by unplugging the AC power cord or unplugging the power cord from the back of the Radiance.
> 2. On the PC double click (run) the download utility.
> 3. Choose the correct Com port.
> 4. Plug in the Radiance power cord.
> 5. Within 10 seconds, click “Start” to begin the download.
> 6. The firmware update will start updating which can take a couple minutes. The PC
> utility will finish and tell you when it’s done.
> 7. If the utility finishes with and error; just turn the Radiance off, then back on and
> rerun the download utility


Thank you Eventidal, you solved it! It downgraded perfectly but I had to reload a configuration backup because colors were completely nonsense like cross-processed film.

Thank you very much for your help.


----------



## Eventidal

Always glad to help!


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 111618*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 111618*
Fixed saving bug in 111518. 
Improves or fixes several deficits in image based auto aspect detection. 
Fix for sometimes missing MaxCll detection from HDR sources and also cases of not changing the colorspace when HDR/SDR changes occur which were issues in 1101-111018 firmware. 
Added another rs232 report for only SDR/HDR under *Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup : Report changes*. 
If set to SDR/HDR 'S' or 'H' will be output on rs232 for SDR or HDR respectively. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


*Bug with 111518 *
Saving menu changes caused units to hang and corrupted the configuration. 
If you've updated to 111518 already then don't save any configuration changes and to update you'll need to do a bootloader update which means unplugging power, then replugging power and starting the update utility in ~10 seconds.


----------



## stefanop

Probably I'm unfortunate. I can't no more restore the unit from standy with RS232 PowerOn command. I have to power on with remote control, then if I send StandBy command via RS232 the unit goes in standby but If I send PowerOn command it doesn't wake up. I have to do it via remote control.


----------



## stefanop

...and if you change aspect ratio it no more sends out an automatic v2 Full Info via RS232. Rev is 111618


----------



## patrick harkin

stefanop said:


> Probably I'm unfortunate. I can't no more restore the unit from standy with RS232 PowerOn command. I have to power on with remote control, then if I send StandBy command via RS232 the unit goes in standby but If I send PowerOn command it doesn't wake up. I have to do it via remote control.


Email [email protected] with your current config file from your Pro (if you haven't done it before, just use the config utility from our website to get it). Sending '%' via rs232 to power-on the Pro still works so it's either something a bit off about your power-on string your control system is sending or a bug in the Pro with the settings that you have.


----------



## stefanop

patrick harkin said:


> Email [email protected] with your current config file from your Pro (if you haven't done it before, just use the config utility from our website to get it). Sending '%' via rs232 to power-on the Pro still works so it's either something a bit off about your power-on string your control system is sending or a bug in the Pro with the settings that you have.


Just sent, thank you for the advice.


----------



## bobof

stefanop said:


> ...and if you change aspect ratio it no more sends out an automatic v2 Full Info via RS232. Rev is 111618


I think something must have happened to your config as all RS232 comms are still working fine on mine (auto aspect v2 full info on rs232); but I never saved any settings with 1115.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Unplug AC power supply for about a minute, plug it in back and repeat procedure this will work 100÷ as I had similar issues you've described. You cannot brick Lumagen as you can always boot this in safe mode


stefanop said:


> Probably I'm unfortunate. I can't no more restore the unit from standy with RS232 PowerOn command. I have to power on with remote control, then if I send StandBy command via RS232 the unit goes in standby but If I send PowerOn command it doesn't wake up. I have to do it via remote control.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 111718*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 111718*
Fix for audio dropouts with Dolby Atmos on AppleTV. 
Fix for rs232 report change messages not getting sent out usb port when active. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> Fix for rs232 report change messages not getting sent out usb port when active.


I'd seen this behaviour a couple of months ago and assumed it was by design, so started to use the RS232 for auto aspect notifications...! Nice one.


----------



## J.P

Hi, is the auto aspect function so fast that it can be used in films with different aspects ?


----------



## Mike_WI

I thought this would be of interest to Lumagen owners.

From
*NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread*
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...ors-anticipation-thread-399.html#post57301166




> Originally Posted by doctormyeyes View Post
> Well, yes, ... I would agree that tone mapping to adapt HDR to our projectors is necessary, as for many of us, limited brightness is our problem. However, that should be largely achievable with a single fixed HDR calibration for your projector. My point being that dynamic tone mapping within the projector will become less important once standards are more uniform. So... choose your projector based on its basic image rather than its HDR processing capability.
> 
> The system built into the Panasonic 820, and it appears the new JVC's, seem less designed to make HDR possible than to make it more consistent from source to source. My RS540 looks great with HDR, once it has been 'tuned in'. Its problem is the source variability, requiring re-tuning for many presentations.
> 
> If I'm wrong, there will undoubtedly be a Panasonic 820 or other brand successor, AVR or other device, less costly than a Lumagen and less complicated than a PC, that is capable of processing HDR for all your devices.
> 
> Mind you, I am sure the new JVC's will be great projectors. I just wouldn't make its HDR tone mapping paramount in my decision to purchase.
> .......
> You might actually have a point here.. When I was demoeing the N5 at my local dealer, they have uploaded their custom HDR curve to the projector instead of using the ready made HDR tone mapping. I asked them why they did that when all they have to do is set to the auto tone mapping.. they said that their curve is far superior to the built in HDR auto tone mapping for ALL content they tested it on.. and they tested it on many UHD disks...
> 
> I then switched between the auto tone mapping and what they did and the difference were astounding... their own custom curves were soooo good... images were totally popping... while the auto tone mapping looked anaemic in contrast.. it's not that it's bad.. but in comparison not even in the same ball park...


----------



## bobof

J.P said:


> Hi, is the auto aspect function so fast that it can be used in films with different aspects ?


No, it is not. Switching can take a couple of seconds, more if the bars aren't very black.

What is your interest in this? Do you:
1) have a 16:9 screen with top and bottom masking you want to drive?,
2) want to zoom into the 2.35:1 sections to fill a 16:9 screen, or
3) want to zoom out of the 16:9 sections to fit within a 2.35:1 screen?

2) & 3) would be abominations in my mind as you'd be massively changing the framing intent of the movie. 1) I have sympathy with (I have top / bottom electric masks) but the mask system noise and lag ends up being more of a distraction than benefit - . You could only really achieve it with a preprogrammed set of movements which got the masks to the right place at the right time.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Does anyone know why the auto aspect feature only works on some films? I can't seem to find a patter but many of my 2.35:1 movies aren't recognized by the feature.


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> Does anyone know why the auto aspect feature only works on some films? I can't seem to find a patter but many of my 2.35:1 movies aren't recognized by the feature.


From discussions with Lumagen it seems that some sources / content have "noisy" or "raised" bars, and perhaps the thresholds currently used by the algorithm for bar detection is lower than the level of the bars from some content / sources. I believe the bars presence has to be detected continuously for a certain amount of time before it locks in.

It seems perhaps a relaxing of the threshold might help, but if it were that simple I guess it would be done already...! 

AppleTV4k Netflix is terrible for this, though it has improved a bit in the most recent release.

I hope it improves further over the coming releases. I have the auto aspect detected ratios hooked up via a Raspberry Pi to my electric masks and it does irk me when it decides to jump out of 2.35:1 mode for no reason you can actually see on screen. Obviously the Radiance saw something it didn't like (the cases tend to be quite repeatable) - but it wasn't anything obvious so it is like there is a knife-edge the aspect decision is balancing on at the mo.

If you have specific examples please send them to Lumagen. They have been engaged with the Auto Aspect functionality recently and the more concrete examples they can have of content that trips it up the better it can get.


----------



## J.P

bobof said:


> No, it is not. Switching can take a couple of seconds, more if the bars aren't very black.
> 
> 
> What is your interest in this? Do you:
> 1) have a 16:9 screen with top and bottom masking you want to drive?,
> 2) want to zoom into the 2.35:1 sections to fill a 16:9 screen, or
> 3) want to zoom out of the 16:9 sections to fit within a 2.35:1 screen?
> 
> 2) & 3) would be abominations in my mind as you'd be massively changing the framing intent of the movie. 1) I have sympathy with (I have top / bottom electric masks) but the mask system noise and lag ends up being more of a distraction than benefit - . You could only really achieve it with a preprogrammed set of movements which got the masks to the right place at the right time.


Ok, thanks. (interest would be to use the Lumagen with an anamorphic lens)


----------



## bobof

J.P said:


> Ok, thanks. (interest would be to use the Lumagen with an anamorphic lens)


OK, so that is a variant of 3), and it is (with respect) completely nutso for the AR changing movies... 
Think about it. The whole point of those IMAX scenes is to give more impact for those sections of the movie. If you're using an anamorphic lens (with a 2.35 screen?) then switching aspect at the IMAX scenes would make those scenes smaller!  . So you'd reduce their impact...

For AR changing movies on a 'scope screen the only option than makes sense is to crop the top and bottom of the IMAX sections off. Many theatres would present these movies this way anyway so you're unlikely to lose much, and it would certainly be a more faithful reproduction than trying to use auto aspect for those scenes.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> then switching aspect at the IMAX scenes would make those scenes smaller!  . So you'd reduce their impact...


I must contradict you here, when using the auto detect function on a cinemascope screen you would want to use the NLS feature for 16:9 content (it is somewhere int the auto detect setings). Then you ain´t get cut off heads and the scenes get bigger (just like IMAX).


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I must contradict you here, when using the auto detect function on a cinemascope screen you would want to use the NLS feature for 16:9 content (it is somewhere int the auto detect setings). Then you ain´t get cut off heads and the scenes get bigger (just like IMAX).


Horses for courses. The geometry distortion that NLS introduces makes me want to hurl every time I've tried it... Reminds me of the old "smart" aspect stuff that 16:9 TVs could do with 4:3 screen. 
But it's been there for ever so I guess some folk like it...

In any case, the detection isn't fast enough to not be distracting in that situation. When the 16:9 scenes end you will have bars visible for a little while before it detects the aspect and switches back to 2.35:1.

For my mind the only two setups that make real sense from the point of view of giving you a seamless presentation are either to watch them on a large unmasked 16:9 screen (preferably through a PJ with high native contrast) or to crop them onto a 2.35:1 screen. I don't think anything else really works for these movies.


----------



## Eventidal

True, it isn´t fast enough, yet. But the NLS feature itself is absolutely awesome for cinemascope and the no.1 reason that I bought the Radiance in the first place. I wished they would also implement the horizontal keystone feature to avoid the geometry distortion. My point was solely that this way the IMAX scenes won´t get smaller. Right now the auto aspect feature is useless for me.


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> True, it isn´t fast enough, yet. But the NLS feature itself is absolutely awesome for cinemascope and the no.1 reason that I bought the Radiance in the first place. I wished they would also implement the horizontal keystone feature to avoid the geometry distortion. My point was solely that this way the IMAX scenes won´t get smaller.* Right now the auto aspect feature is useless for me*.


How so? Surely you watch more stuff than just the handful of movies that exist that have changing aspect? If you like NLS then surely the auto aspect function will work well for you for much content at the moment (minus some of the niggles with detection on certain titles / sources?). The slight delay in switching aspects isn't a big issue, it should usually detect before the movie much gets going. If you've got examples of movies that should work but don't then get them to Lumagen support so they can fix the algorithms to deal better with them.

The aspect ratio changing movies are a cinematic oddity and I don't think this feature was ever designed to operate on them. There are other issues there - the aspect switches in the Lumagen aren't completely seamless I think, and if you have serial port notifications turned on you'll also notice a stutter in the image.

Can you explain a bit more about what you mean in terms of horizontal keystone? I don't get what that has to do with the geometry distortion from NLS. Is this some problem with your A-lens setup (that the lens and PJ isn't dead centre to the screen?). Or is it related to NLS? The NLS distortion is different and is intrinsic in what you are doing with NLS (ie stretching some of the image more than other bits). Horizontal keystone won't help with that distortion.


----------



## Eventidal

I prefer setting up things manually. Hence I watch the entire movie with NLS (16:9 and switching content). I will give the auto aspect feature another shot, maybe it´s faster than it used it to be...

By horizontal keystone correction I meant to adjust the pincushion effect (it is slight and not visible unless you watch sports and have some sort of info bar on the screen).


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I prefer setting up things manually. Hence I watch the entire movie with NLS (16:9 and switching content). I will give the auto aspect feature another shot, maybe it´s faster than it used it to be...
> 
> By horizontal keystone correction I meant to adjust the pincushion effect (it is slight and not visible unless you watch sports and have some sort of info bar on the screen).


I really don't understand now (!)... So you watch aspect switching movies on the 2.35:1 screen through the A lens with NLS enabled? How does that work? You must have some projected black bars on the screen then during the 'scope sections of the movie?

I don't think you mean horizontal keystone in that case. Horizontal keystone is to correct trapezoid distortion from projecting off centre. Unless your pincushion is very different to how I imagine it what you are really asking is for some kind of specific pincushion correction to counteract the lens pincushion effect. It's not keystone.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> I don't think you mean horizontal keystone in that case. Horizontal keystone is to correct trapezoid distortion from projecting off centre. Unless your pincushion is very different to how I imagine it what you are really asking is for some kind of specific pincushion correction to counteract the lens pincushion effect. It's not keystone.


Then you might call it vertical keystone correction. As I said, to adjust the pincushion effect, especially in the corners.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> I really don't understand now (!)... So you watch aspect switching movies on the 2.35:1 screen through the A lens with NLS enabled? How does that work? You must have some projected black bars on the screen then during the 'scope sections of the movie?


I don´t recall any black bars with NLS but I haven´t watched a switching movie in a long time.


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> Then you might call it vertical keystone correction. As I said, to adjust the pincushion effect, especially in the corners.


No, it's not that either!  It is something completely different to keystone.
Keystone (horizontal or vertical) is just for correcting keystone distortion. These two shapes (image borrowed from projectorpeople.com).









Neither horizontal nor vertical keystone correction will help with pincushion, it is something different.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> No, it's not that either!  It is something completely different to keystone.
> Keystone (horizontal or vertical) is just for correcting keystone distortion. These two shapes (image borrowed from projectorpeople.com).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither horizontal nor vertical keystone correction will help with pincushion, it is something different.


Thanks for clarification. Then let´s call it pincushion correction for now..


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike_WI said:


> I thought this would be of interest to Lumagen owners.
> 
> From
> *NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread*
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...ors-anticipation-thread-399.html#post57301166


The problem I have with that post is it generalizes way too much. It really feels like most people just want an HDR image that looks bright all the time, which defeats the purpose of HDR. So by that ration I almost feel like those people should just really stick to standard Blu-ray and avoid the issue completely. Sure you lose a little something, but BD still looks fantastic on a well calibrated screen. 

This is the same issue we see with music all the time. The purists want high resolution audio with high dynamic range. The problem is, that only works out well in a really well controlled enviroment with almost no noise floor. As soon as you try to listen in a more realistic everyday setting, the quiet parts are way too quiet and the loud parts scare the crap out of you because you turned it up so loud to hear the quiet stuff! 

So people want tone maps that just normalize the entire image into something bright while sacrificing the HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE to get it. They are happy with the movies that actually don't have much dynamic range, because they are easy to project and watch while the movies that are actually dynamic are "bad mastering" or "poor presentations". The true problem is our display device (projectors) don't have nearly enough headroom (light starved) and don't have enough native contrast to make these titles look good. Flat panels have these things but most people use them in their family rooms and not our bat caves so they complain about the dim image because their noise floor (room lights/ambient light) is so high, just like high dynamic range music in a car. 

I love what HDR brings to the table, but I really feel like it wasn't well thought out. It is spectacular in a very specific usage case (very bright, high dynamic range display in a perfect enviroment) but creates usage issues in just about every practical application to which they delivered nearly no solutions for.


----------



## kal

*Paging John Salter! Your reply-to email address is invalid!*

This is a complete shot in the dark, but if you're the John Salter that has been emailing me at [email protected] with Radiance Pro questions you're going to have to fix your Outlook email settings for me to be able to reply to you. Right now your reply-to email address is set up as something invalid and my replies are simply bouncing. See here for your issue and how to resolve:

https://support.office.com/en-us/ar...-windows-90ed7938-7f21-4cb5-a69d-a3b79ea4eafd

Kal


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDR10+ in Oppo Latest Public Beta Test Release*

FYI for Oppo-philes interested in HDR

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-...udp-203-owner-s-thread-1150.html#post57338384
New public beta firmware with HDR10+ and HDMI IN BYPASS to allow external Dolby Vision signal passthrough.

https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/UDP203-firmware-64-1221B.aspx
*Release date: December 28, 2018.
Category: Latest Public Beta Test Release*

Main Version: UDP20X-64-1221B
Loader Version: TF0035
MCU Version: MCU203-01-1118, MCU205-01-1220

Release Notes:
This release is for the OPPO UDP-20x 4K UHD Blu-ray Disc Player.
Comparing to the current Official release version UDP20X-60-0625, the major changes included in this version are:
Added the *HDR10+ support*. A HDR10+ enabled TV is required to view content in HDR10+.
Added the "HDMI IN BYPASS" mode for *Dolby Vision passthrough *via HDMI In.
General fixes and disc compatibility improvements based on recent and upcoming UHD Blu-ray releases as well as user-submitted samples.


Firmware Upgrade Instructions:
Note: Since this is a public beta test version, it cannot be installed using the "Via Network" upgrade method. Please choose the "Via USB" or "Via Disc" method instead. Alternatively, you can wait for this beta test version to be qualified as an official release version, and then perform an update to the latest official release via the Internet.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike_WI said:


> FYI for Oppo-philes interested in HDR
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-...udp-203-owner-s-thread-1150.html#post57338384
> New public beta firmware with HDR10+ and HDMI IN BYPASS to allow external Dolby Vision signal passthrough.
> 
> https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/UDP203-firmware-64-1221B.aspx
> *Release date: December 28, 2018.
> Category: Latest Public Beta Test Release*
> 
> Main Version: UDP20X-64-1221B
> Loader Version: TF0035
> MCU Version: MCU203-01-1118, MCU205-01-1220
> 
> Release Notes:
> This release is for the OPPO UDP-20x 4K UHD Blu-ray Disc Player.
> Comparing to the current Official release version UDP20X-60-0625, the major changes included in this version are:
> Added the *HDR10+ support*. A HDR10+ enabled TV is required to view content in HDR10+.
> Added the "HDMI IN BYPASS" mode for *Dolby Vision passthrough *via HDMI In.
> General fixes and disc compatibility improvements based on recent and upcoming UHD Blu-ray releases as well as user-submitted samples.
> 
> 
> Firmware Upgrade Instructions:
> Note: Since this is a public beta test version, it cannot be installed using the "Via Network" upgrade method. Please choose the "Via USB" or "Via Disc" method instead. Alternatively, you can wait for this beta test version to be qualified as an official release version, and then perform an update to the latest official release via the Internet.


Is there at this time any advantage for me to load this to my Oppo 205 in conjunction with the current tone mapping of my Lumagen Radiance Pro? Or will this only be of utility in the future when the Radiance Pro's firmware has the necessary update?


----------



## SJHT

Wonder is 2019 is the year we will finish the beta for the Pro. . Happy New Year!


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> Is anyone using a Denon AVR-X3500H with the Pro?
> 
> I am experiencing intermittent audio/video blanking that lasts around 10 seconds with multiple sources.
> 
> I also have a 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR, so was thinking that component may be the cause. I am using an HDMI voltage inserter on the cable at the Pro output, because without it the video signal flashes repeatedly. I attempted to move the HDMI voltage inserter to the sink end (the AVR input) yesterday, but that caused constant audio issues.
> 
> I haven’t made any changes to the AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue.
> 
> Any input/advice is appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





jrp said:


> I am probably duplicating other replies, but I recommend getting rid of the voltage-inserter between the Pro and the RUIPRO. The Pro has plenty of HDMI standby output power to drive the RUIPRO, and the inserter is nothing more than a discontinuity in the HDMI transmission lines. The discontinuity it creates may be the cause of your dropouts, and in any case is a bad idea for a 4k HDMI connection.
> 
> I recommend against fiber cables for connections carrying audio since they tend to have more jitter than metal only HDMI cables. I also recommend against such a long cable for audio. Audio is much more sensitive than video for HDMI. If you need to go 50 feet from the Pro for the output carrying audio I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" all metal cable. I do not have any jitter data on this versus the RUIPRO but I have noticed the HDMI connection locks faster using the UHDT than the RUIPRO. I believe this is in part due to it having less jitter, but might just be it is a clean signal. Either way I prefer the Tributaries Titan, especially for audio connections, while still recommending the RUIPRO as an excellent cable.
> 
> It sounds like you pass video through the AVR. I recommend the Pro drive the Projector/TV directly and not through the AVR. I suspect if you send video from the Pro to the TV/projector directly, and audio to the AVR, both using Titan cables, you will improve your reliability. Of course I cannot be certain, but this change in connectivity has resolved dropouts in other systems.





giomania said:


> Thanks Jim.
> 
> I will try removing it again, but the two times I have tried to remove the voltage inserter previously, there is constant flashing of the signal on and off. I should probably try different HDMI inputs on the AVR to make it a thorough test.
> 
> The reason for testing the other inputs is that Denon has recommended in the past with other AVR’s to use the HDMI input that is physically closest to the output to mitigate issues with 4K HDR source devices.
> 
> I want the AVR volume display on my TV and am willing to live with some compromises to achieve that goal.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I wanted to post an update that I solved my problem and was able to remove the HDMI voltage inserter by switching the Ruipro cable to a different input on the AVR, a Denon AVR-X3500H.

As noted above, Denon has recommended in the past with other AVR’s to use the HDMI input that is physically closest to the output to mitigate issues with 4K HDR source devices, so I was using input #7 (CD) since I purchased the AVR, as it was the closest input to the outputs. I was using it with the same Ruipro 50-foot cable and the Lumagen Radiance 2041 without the voltage inserter without issues.

I noted above that I would try the other inputs on the AVR to make the test thorough, and I finally got around to that task, and here are the detailed results. First I removed the voltage inserter from the source end (output of the Lumagen Radiance Pro) of the cable.

HDMI Input #1 (CBL/SAT)
This is farthest input (in physical distance) from the HDMI outputs on the receiver. This input resulted in a blanking video signal about every minute, and intermittent audio interruptions that occurred around every 10 seconds or so. The audio interruptions were very brief (milliseconds?), but were frequent enough to be annoying.

HDMI Input #2 (DVD)
This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.

HDMI Input #3 (Blu-ray)
This input resulted in no video or audio blanking.

HDMI Input #4 (GAME)
This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.

HDMI Input #5 (MEDIA PLAYER)
This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.

HDMI Input #6 (AUX2)
This input resulted in no picture at all; it never synched. I verified the input was set to use HDMI 6.

HDMI Input #7 (CD)
This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.

I don't really see any pattern to the above results, but I am glad I was able to remove the voltage inserter.

Mark


----------



## OMARDRIS

*Measuring the black level of Sony laser projector*

Hello,
I wish you all the best for the New Year.
I would like to point out a little peculiarity when measuring the laser projector VW760ES with the Radiance Pro. Presumably it will be the same with the VW870ES and VW5000ES. 

It is well known that these projectors perform laser dimming and, when set to "Laser Dimming = Full", turn off the laser completely when a black image is displayed. To measure the dimming effect, you usually use a black pattern with a pixel that is not black to prevent the laser from shutting off completely. With the VW760ES, the dimming improves the black value by about a factor of 1.5.

But I do not think it is known to all that the laser of the VW760ES also reacts to test patterns that are not completely black even with the setting "Laserdimming = Off". A single non-black pixel is enough to increase the black value by about 12%. This behavior of the VW760ES has not changed in the current firmware 8.004.
If you are prepared for the effect, you can see it quite well with your eyes. Of course, a Klein K10A reacts immediately. There is a small effect on the gamma curve in the lower range of 0 to 15%. This is certainly of little relevance for practical film use, as a picture is seldom 100% black.
But you should always know what you measure. 

If the Radiance Pro is used as a pattern generator, it always shows the letter "A" in the upper right corner for a few seconds when calling a pattern. The Klein K10A is done with black measurement before the letter "A" disappears. This letter and the non-black pixel in the "black pattern" introduced since version 100118 cause the VW760ES to raise the black value.
If you take a "neutral" pattern generator instead, such as the DVDO TPG, then you measure a black level that is around 12% low.

If someone has a VW760ES and the Radiance Pro, he can very easily check the "effect" in a dark room by manually calling up the black test pattern on the Radiance Pro via the menu, switching off the info with the "2" button and then use the arrow keys "up" and "down" to switch the "special pixel" in the upper left corner to "black" or "not black". For the first test you should set the laser dimming on the VW760ES to "full", because then the laser completely shuts off, if the "special pixel" is switched to black. Then you get a feeling how to use the arrow keys. On the second test, the laser dimming will be turned off, and then you can see with your eyes that the black level changes slightly when you switch the pixel.

Perhaps it would be possible for Jim and Patrick to offer a switch for a "completely neutral" output of the patterns, but of course that's a big hassle.

Right now I'm helping myself by connecting the DVDO TPG as a pattern generator to the Radiance Pro's input and then measuring when logging the black value is important in the context of a LUT.
Thank you for your patience.
Peter


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

OMARDRIS said:


> Hello,
> I wish you all the best for the New Year.
> I would like to point out a little peculiarity when measuring the laser projector VW760ES with the Radiance Pro. Presumably it will be the same with the VW870ES and VW5000ES.
> 
> It is well known that these projectors perform laser dimming and, when set to "Laser Dimming = Full", turn off the laser completely when a black image is displayed. To measure the dimming effect, you usually use a black pattern with a pixel that is not black to prevent the laser from shutting off completely. With the VW760ES, the dimming improves the black value by about a factor of 1.5.
> 
> But I do not think it is known to all that the laser of the VW760ES also reacts to test patterns that are not completely black even with the setting "Laserdimming = Off". A single non-black pixel is enough to increase the black value by about 12%. This behavior of the VW760ES has not changed in the current firmware 8.004.
> If you are prepared for the effect, you can see it quite well with your eyes. Of course, a Klein K10A reacts immediately. There is a small effect on the gamma curve in the lower range of 0 to 15%. This is certainly of little relevance for practical film use, as a picture is seldom 100% black.
> But you should always know what you measure.
> 
> If the Radiance Pro is used as a pattern generator, it always shows the letter "A" in the upper right corner for a few seconds when calling a pattern. The Klein K10A is done with black measurement before the letter "A" disappears. This letter and the non-black pixel in the "black pattern" introduced since version 100118 cause the VW760ES to raise the black value.
> If you take a "neutral" pattern generator instead, such as the DVDO TPG, then you measure a black level that is around 12% low.
> 
> If someone has a VW760ES and the Radiance Pro, he can very easily check the "effect" in a dark room by manually calling up the black test pattern on the Radiance Pro via the menu, switching off the info with the "2" button and then use the arrow keys "up" and "down" to switch the "special pixel" in the upper left corner to "black" or "not black". For the first test you should set the laser dimming on the VW760ES to "full", because then the laser completely shuts off, if the "special pixel" is switched to black. Then you get a feeling how to use the arrow keys. On the second test, the laser dimming will be turned off, and then you can see with your eyes that the black level changes slightly when you switch the pixel.
> 
> Perhaps it would be possible for Jim and Patrick to offer a switch for a "completely neutral" output of the patterns, but of course that's a big hassle.
> 
> Right now I'm helping myself by connecting the DVDO TPG as a pattern generator to the Radiance Pro's input and then measuring when logging the black value is important in the context of a LUT.
> Thank you for your patience.
> Peter


Hi Peter, yes I've noticed that issue on my VW760ES when were calibrating 3D Lut via LightSpace.
I Simply turn off Dynamic Laser Control , so set it to Off, and perform a usual step by step calibration. 
I also use patterns without info letters (A letter at the corner).


----------



## Kris Deering

OMARDRIS said:


> Hello,
> I wish you all the best for the New Year.
> I would like to point out a little peculiarity when measuring the laser projector VW760ES with the Radiance Pro. Presumably it will be the same with the VW870ES and VW5000ES.
> 
> It is well known that these projectors perform laser dimming and, when set to "Laser Dimming = Full", turn off the laser completely when a black image is displayed. To measure the dimming effect, you usually use a black pattern with a pixel that is not black to prevent the laser from shutting off completely. With the VW760ES, the dimming improves the black value by about a factor of 1.5.
> 
> But I do not think it is known to all that the laser of the VW760ES also reacts to test patterns that are not completely black even with the setting "Laserdimming = Off". A single non-black pixel is enough to increase the black value by about 12%. This behavior of the VW760ES has not changed in the current firmware 8.004.
> If you are prepared for the effect, you can see it quite well with your eyes. Of course, a Klein K10A reacts immediately. There is a small effect on the gamma curve in the lower range of 0 to 15%. This is certainly of little relevance for practical film use, as a picture is seldom 100% black.
> But you should always know what you measure.
> 
> If the Radiance Pro is used as a pattern generator, it always shows the letter "A" in the upper right corner for a few seconds when calling a pattern. The Klein K10A is done with black measurement before the letter "A" disappears. This letter and the non-black pixel in the "black pattern" introduced since version 100118 cause the VW760ES to raise the black value.
> If you take a "neutral" pattern generator instead, such as the DVDO TPG, then you measure a black level that is around 12% low.
> 
> If someone has a VW760ES and the Radiance Pro, he can very easily check the "effect" in a dark room by manually calling up the black test pattern on the Radiance Pro via the menu, switching off the info with the "2" button and then use the arrow keys "up" and "down" to switch the "special pixel" in the upper left corner to "black" or "not black". For the first test you should set the laser dimming on the VW760ES to "full", because then the laser completely shuts off, if the "special pixel" is switched to black. Then you get a feeling how to use the arrow keys. On the second test, the laser dimming will be turned off, and then you can see with your eyes that the black level changes slightly when you switch the pixel.
> 
> Perhaps it would be possible for Jim and Patrick to offer a switch for a "completely neutral" output of the patterns, but of course that's a big hassle.
> 
> Right now I'm helping myself by connecting the DVDO TPG as a pattern generator to the Radiance Pro's input and then measuring when logging the black value is important in the context of a LUT.
> Thank you for your patience.
> Peter


I saw this when I was doing the contrast measurements for the 995ES review I'm writing. I use a single pixel pattern for black so that the laser doesn't turn off. Normally, this would be the native black floor but I saw the same thing you did. The black floor is different between a full black (no pixel) and even a single pixel. 

Native contrast (no pixel): 16,500:1 Native contrast (single pixel): 12,000:1

This also applies when you use the dimming modes

Limited CR (no pixel): 24,000:1, (with pixel): 16,800:1

So the absolute best contrast one can get from this projector (because all content will have at least a pixel worth of data other than a true black out) is 21,000:1 (this was in dimming mode FULL with a single pixel). 

To say I was REALLY surprised by this result would be an understatement, but it was VERY repeatable and the single pixel was not influencing the meter at all (well outside of the read area).


----------



## bobof

Getting very OT but really interesting; so it sounds like there is some kind of undefeatable dimming happening even with the dimming notionally turned off? Is this a cynical attempt to fudge on/off contrast measurements? Is the dimming happening at the laser or is it somehow at the panel level? There is at least one interesting and slightly odd phenomenon you can observe on a JVC PJ if you're awake; where the black floor raises (black colour shifts to redder also) during the transition to the lens control screens and at some other mode transitions - like some "extra black" "thing" is electronically turned off. It affects the non-pixel areas of the panel also, so I'm sure it isn't just digital black being raised and is something that happens which changes the black floor. It isn't related to the iris or lamp as you can see these don't change, nor is it the cinema filter.


----------



## Kris Deering

Not sure if it is at the panel or laser level, would be really hard to figure that out. 

I've seen the shifting in JVC levels when it is resynching to an input signal, the Sony does something similar at times.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure if it is at the panel or laser level, would be really hard to figure that out.
> 
> I've seen the shifting in JVC levels when it is resynching to an input signal, the Sony does something similar at times.


If the level shift is that significant you >might< be able to see some interesting info by watching the power consumption of the unit in real time while testing. It wouldn't be conclusive, but would probably be right.

You could work out what manual laser levels gave you the different measured black levels with dimming disabled and a single pixel on the screen (to prevent the dimming); and then measure the power consumption at those levels. Do this both for the black levels you get with the pixel and without (but always with the pixel displayed).
Then look at your zero pixel images. If the power consumption now drops in line with the power consumption of the single pixel tests at that black level then it is probably fairly safe to say that the laser is being dimmed.


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Wonder is 2019 is the year we will finish the beta for the Pro. . Happy New Year!


I'm looking forward to the dynamic HDR tone mapping !!


----------



## Wookii

Craig Peer said:


> I'm looking forward to the dynamic HDR tone mapping !!


As am I - I'm hearing very good reports out of the MadVR camp that moving to dynamic tone mapping has made a substantial improvement.


----------



## AidenL

Craig Peer said:


> I'm looking forward to the dynamic HDR tone mapping !!





Wookii said:


> As am I - I'm hearing very good reports out of the MadVR camp that moving to dynamic tone mapping has made a substantial improvement.


When is it supposed to arrive?


----------



## thrang

AidenL said:


> When is it supposed to arrive?


Two weeks ago!  (apologies Jim, but this is great spot for a little update!)


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've been very much out of the loop, but just wanted to ask a question: If I update my Radiance Pro to the most recent firmware (it's about a year out of date currently) and run a calibration, would I then have to run another calibration if the dynamic HDR function becomes available? In other words, would this function 'sit on top' of any 2.4/rec2020 calibration that I do?

I don't have much chance to do a calibration, so I've been using my Pro as a rather expensive HDMI switch/'shrink mode device for CIH' since I got it last year.  I have a few bits to finish in my room with more black velvet, but hope to do this soon so it would make it worth doing a calibration. I just don't want to have to repeat it all again if the dynamic function comes along. 

On the other hand, if it's going to be a work in progress for a while then maybe I'll just use the most recent stable firmware, run a calibration and stick with that until next winter's viewing season...


----------



## dlinsley

thrang said:


> Two weeks ago!  (apologies Jim, but this is great spot for a little update!)


Did anyone here go to Jim's calibration session at CES this week?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Jim's calibration and Radiance Pro class is tonight after CES in Vegas.


Kelvin. I'd expect that the dynamic tonemapping will apply over a 2.4 gamma SDR gamma curve. So you should be able to go and do your rec2020 2.4gamma calibration.


----------



## bearcat2002

Craig Peer said:


> I'm looking forward to the dynamic HDR tone mapping !!


Me too!!!


----------



## Ian_Currie

Wookii said:


> As am I - I'm hearing very good reports out of the MadVR camp that moving to dynamic tone mapping has made a substantial improvement.


I can confirm this - it's amazing.


----------



## bearcat2017

Ian_Currie said:


> I can confirm this - it's amazing.




Now that is just downright mean.  Hope to hear a timeline soon!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Roland Janus

*Auto-aspect issue*

With the I think latest two changes regarding auto-aspect I noticed issues.
I had them before and went back to an older version, but now even the latest shows the same so I'm pretty confident that it is related:

I use 2.35 same aspect mode and NLS, as described in a technical note.
two things happen:

1.
On darker scenes, and I don't mean like really black, even with some brighter elements, the ratio changes to like 1:78 (auto), although the content is 2.35.
This happens just randomly, but usually on darker scenes. Sometime several times in a row. I always have to manually override.

2.
That one is really nasty and it seems related to 1.78 or 1.85 content. There is also switching but there is no real picture anymore, just a 4:3 aspect color mess in the middle of the screen.
It also happens sometimes several times in a row or nothing for longer period of time.

Any ideas?

cheers, roland


----------



## molave78

I recently just bought RadiancePro 4240. First thing I was trying to do was update the software as mentioned in the Radiance Pro setup slide. I have PC with windows 7 with no physical serial port, only USB. The Lumagen Pro came with a USB with type A on one end that connects to the PC and type B on the other end that connects to the unit. I believed I followed the instruction on how to update the unit but I am lost when it asked me the COM port number. Since there is no physical serial port, do I need to buy a Virtual COM port software to do this? The instruction did mention about "the interface remains a virtual serial port interface" when using the provided USB cable. What does this mean? Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance!


----------



## bearcat2002

molave78 said:


> I recently just bought RadiancePro 4240. First thing I was trying to do was update the software as mentioned in the Radiance Pro setup slide. I have PC with windows 7 with no physical serial port, only USB. The Lumagen Pro came with a USB with type A on one end that connects to the PC and type B on the other end that connects to the unit. I believed I followed the instruction on how to update the unit but I am lost when it asked me the COM port number. Since there is no physical serial port, do I need to buy a Virtual COM port software to do this? The instruction did mention about "the interface remains a virtual serial port interface" when using the provided USB cable. What does this mean? Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance!


Just select a COM port and start...if it's not the right one it won't start. Just keep trying different COM ports and eventually it will begin.


----------



## GerryWaz

molave78 said:


> I recently just bought RadiancePro 4240. First thing I was trying to do was update the software as mentioned in the Radiance Pro setup slide. I have PC with windows 7 with no physical serial port, only USB. The Lumagen Pro came with a USB with type A on one end that connects to the PC and type B on the other end that connects to the unit. I believed I followed the instruction on how to update the unit but I am lost when it asked me the COM port number. Since there is no physical serial port, do I need to buy a Virtual COM port software to do this? The instruction did mention about "the interface remains a virtual serial port interface" when using the provided USB cable. What does this mean? Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance!



I'm not sure if this will will work with Windows 7 or not but you can also try this to find the exact COM port to use.


Hook up your Lumagen to your Windows laptop or PC with the provided connection. Make sure the Radiance has power and is in standby or is powered on.


Go to Windows Device Manager. (See this if you need help.)


In Device Manager, look for the Port section. Expand the Port section.


You should see which COM port to use in the Radiance firmware updater. In the image below, I should use the USB serial port, which is COM3.





















Easy peasy.


----------



## molave78

Finally, software updated. I did what bearcat2002 suggested. Weird that under device management, the Port line is not showing. So I just started form COM1 and got lucky with COM3. I was so scared that it may Brick the Radiance Pro. I wasted 2 days trying to figure this out myself and browsing through hundreds of post here. I should have just asked. Thank you so much for the help!


----------



## Roland Janus

No one?

This looks very much like a bug, so I was expecting at least something from Lumagen... 




Roland Janus said:


> With the I think latest two changes regarding auto-aspect I noticed issues.
> I had them before and went back to an older version, but now even the latest shows the same so I'm pretty confident that it is related:
> 
> I use 2.35 same aspect mode and NLS, as described in a technical note.
> two things happen:
> 
> 1.
> On darker scenes, and I don't mean like really black, even with some brighter elements, the ratio changes to like 1:78 (auto), although the content is 2.35.
> This happens just randomly, but usually on darker scenes. Sometime several times in a row. I always have to manually override.
> 
> 2.
> That one is really nasty and it seems related to 1.78 or 1.85 content. There is also switching but there is no real picture anymore, just a 4:3 aspect color mess in the middle of the screen.
> It also happens sometimes several times in a row or nothing for longer period of time.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> cheers, roland


----------



## dlinsley

Maybe NLS needs to be enabled for this bug to show? I don't think most people use NLS. I'm currently using the DCR with my 16:9 JVC RS600 while I await the RS3000 (Monday!), setting the Radiance to an aspect of 2.22 to keep the final aspect correct, and I don't see any issues with auto-aspect other than sometimes I have to force it to scope due to the black bars not being black enough, such as the Bernard visions in West World season 2.

I'd email Lumagen support.


----------



## Roland Janus

dlinsley said:


> Maybe NLS needs to be enabled for this bug to show? I don't think most people use NLS. I'm currently using the DCR with my 16:9 JVC RS600 while I await the RS3000 (Monday!), setting the Radiance to an aspect of 2.22 to keep the final aspect correct, and I don't see any issues with auto-aspect other than sometimes I have to force it to scope due to the black bars not being black enough, such as the Bernard visions in West World season 2.
> 
> I'd email Lumagen support.


I also think its NLS related, well I guess I email them then, still, they are active here so...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Roland Janus said:


> I also think its NLS related, well I guess I email them then, still, they are active here so...



this is not a support forum. If you have bugs or find issues your best and fastest course of action to a result is to email them. you can see from length of time between visits that this is not somewhere that they visit every day...or even every week. Emailing usually gets a response within 24 hours in my experience.



Gordon


----------



## Roland Janus

Gordon Fraser said:


> this is not a support forum. If you have bugs or find issues your best and fastest course of action to a result is to email them. you can see from length of time between visits that this is not somewhere that they visit every day...or even every week. Emailing usually gets a response within 24 hours in my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Gordon


I guess you're right. Would have been nice though.


----------



## AidenL

I’m thinking I may invest in a Lumagen to avail of the dynamic tone mapping which is incoming. 

I can’t spare the time to mess around with Mad VR and so on, life’s too short, and time is too precious. 

Just wondering what all you owners consider to be the best feature, most used and most beneficial?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

How much of the lumagen is set it and forget it? Or do I always have to tweak it? 
I watch Netflix 4k hdr, amazon, vudu 4k, plex movies 1080p blu ray rips. Occasional disc on the oppo 403.

Was about to pay for an ISF calibration but was trying to figure out of the lumagen can auto calibrate yet? 
Does the lumagen 4k have that ability to tie in with a meter and go thru at least a wizard?


----------



## sjschaff

It is set it and forget it until things change, such as lamp aging. However, the fly in the ointment is the rise of UHD/HDR. It's more than a little complicated to use the Radiance Pro and calibration software (at least for me with CalMAN Enthusiast). Wondering if any other software with appropriate meters makes it much easier to do a calibration, at least at this point in time.


----------



## bobof

sjschaff said:


> It is set it and forget it until things change, such as lamp aging. However, the fly in the ointment is the rise of UHD/HDR. It's more than a little complicated to use the Radiance Pro and calibration software (at least for me with CalMAN Enthusiast). Wondering if any other software with appropriate meters makes it much easier to do a calibration, at least at this point in time.


I'm surprised it is complicated for HDR in Calman. In Lightspace all you need to do is set the PJ to whatever mode you would use for HDR, play some HDR content, upload a null cube to reset the LUT and make a profile of however large you want it, and then create a 3DLUT. There is some detail you need to understand around what you have your output colourspace set to - and hence what you set your LUT target to be - but there's not that much to it. What aspect of the Calman setup do you find complicated?


----------



## sjschaff

Glad Lightspace is easy. I’m looking for CalMAN for HDR to be as simple as using its Autocal for SDR.


----------



## bobof

In fairness I don't think what Lightspace does could be called anything close to a guided "autocal" process. I don't find it complicated (in fact the only times I've seen Calman in use I've disliked the guided way it works) but I'm an electronics engineer who prefers the nuts and bolts of things.


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> I'm surprised it is complicated for HDR in Calman. In Lightspace all you need to do is set the PJ to whatever mode you would use for HDR, play some HDR content, upload a null cube to reset the LUT and make a profile of however large you want it, and then create a 3DLUT. There is some detail you need to understand around what you have your output colourspace set to - and hence what you set your LUT target to be - but there's not that much to it. What aspect of the Calman setup do you find complicated?


I've never been able to do a Rec2020 3D LUT in Calman, though its been over a year since I tried, it always seemed to make a complete mess of it. From (distant) memory I think Calman always tried to apply the full PQ gamma curve in measuring and calculating the LUT points, so a large proportion of the points in the colour cube were clipped because the projector couldn't get anywhere near the luminance range. Don't quote me, and they may have changed things in the past year, but I think that's why it didn't work in the past.

How do you tackle that in Lightspace? Does it let you do a 3D LUT for BT2020 based on a 2.4 power gamma?

Luckily I never really needed it as the 760's gamuts track really well, so a 1D LUT for SDR2020 output has been sufficient.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> I've never been able to do a Rec2020 3D LUT in Calman, though its been over a year since I tried, it always seemed to make a complete mess of it. From (distant) memory I think Calman always tried to apply the full PQ gamma curve in measuring and calculating the LUT points, so a large proportion of the points in the colour cube were clipped because the projector couldn't get anywhere near the luminance range. Don't quote me, and they may have changed things in the past year, but I think that's why it didn't work in the past.
> 
> How do you tackle that in Lightspace? Does it let you do a 3D LUT for BT2020 based on a 2.4 power gamma?
> 
> Luckily I never really needed it as the 760's gamuts track really well, so a 1D LUT for SDR2020 output has been sufficient.


That side of things works great; if you know enough to know that's what you want & need you'd probably find Lightspace a refreshing change.

You create the cube profile based on your probe capabilities, display characteristics and time available. This cube is colour space agnostic - it just represents measured xyY for given input triplets.

When you want to create a 3DLUT you have tons of options of targets; including REC709, 2020 with power gamma (known in LS as UHD 2020), 2020 with PQ curve (ST2084), ST 2084 2020 with baked in tone mapping curve to BT2390, DCI P3 with D65 white point (defaults to 2.6 gamma but can be set to 2.4), etc. 
I've recently been doing DCIP3 D65 output 3DLUTs and using them with the new DCIP3 output colourspace settings in the Lumagen, which seems useful as most projectors don't even meet DCIP3. The neat thing is I was actually able to generate the newly supported DCIP3 LUT from an old set of profile data.

You can also create custom colourspaces where you modify some of the gamut points which can be useful in some situations.

If you ever want to have a poke around in LS let me know (though I think you can actually try out the LUT generation in the demo, it just inserts a watermark notch which spoils the greyscale)


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> That side of things works great; if you know enough to know that's what you want & need you'd probably find Lightspace a refreshing change.
> 
> You create the cube profile based on your probe capabilities, display characteristics and time available. This cube is colour space agnostic - it just represents measured xyY for given input triplets.
> 
> When you want to create a 3DLUT you have tons of options of targets; including REC709, 2020 with power gamma (known in LS as UHD 2020), 2020 with PQ curve (ST2084), ST 2084 2020 with baked in tone mapping curve to BT2390, DCI P3 with D65 white point (defaults to 2.6 gamma but can be set to 2.4), etc.
> I've recently been doing DCIP3 D65 output 3DLUTs and using them with the new DCIP3 output colourspace settings in the Lumagen, which seems useful as most projectors don't even meet DCIP3. The neat thing is I was actually able to generate the newly supported DCIP3 LUT from an old set of profile data.
> 
> You can also create custom colourspaces where you modify some of the gamut points which can be useful in some situations.
> 
> If you ever want to have a poke around in LS let me know (though I think you can actually try out the LUT generation in the demo, it just inserts a watermark notch which spoils the greyscale)


That does sound good to be honest. I’ve downloaded the demo a couple of times previously, but just find the interface almost impenetrable. I think I probabaly need to pencil in a day to really have a concerted effort to climb the learning curve, but it’s a hard nut to crack on first inspection.

I believe someone (Gordon?) was going to post a primer at some point - that would be a useful way into the software. I imagine, like most things, once you’ve done a couple of cals on it, it becomes more intuitive.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> That does sound good to be honest. I’ve downloaded the demo a couple of times previously, but just find the interface almost impenetrable. I think I probabaly need to pencil in a day to really have a concerted effort to climb the learning curve, but it’s a hard nut to crack on first inspection.
> 
> I believe someone (Gordon?) was going to post a primer at some point - that would be a useful way into the software. I imagine, like most things, once you’ve done a couple of cals on it, it becomes more intuitive.


I've been using it for a couple of years now. Cut my teeth just doing SDR LUTs, then hacked around doing HDR LUTs for my old X30 JVC with the 2143 (using a Linker to force output of the WCG2020 data at 1080p to the 2143), and now got the Pro. The LS docs are pretty good and you have the benefit that Steve is here in our timezone and appears to not sleep, so will reply it seems at most times within hours. There are a few things about the interface and graphs which are a bit idiosyncratic, and it isn't a great tool for manual (interactive) calibration, but for 3DLUT I don't think it really has any competition. I did own CP3 and really didn't get on with that at all, I've seen CM being used and don't like the restrictive workflow.

Once you get your head round profiling and LUT generation being separate things you do it is actually pretty straightforward - especially if you're already across the technical reqs, which is where a lot of CM users I think fall down because Calman significantly lowers the bar in terms of what you need to understand to be able to get some kind of calibration done.

It is pretty much:

Set up patch generation in the Lumagen or an external patch gen (oddly, under Upload). Upload a NULL cube to the currently active CMS by checking the box.
Go to Calibration interface - it will ask you to connect to the meter. Spend a little time taking some manual readings and quick profiles to figure out how you're going to set up the projector in what modes for what you are trying to achieve.
Go to Display Characterisation and set up the cube or patch sequence you are going to profile. Run the profile.
Use Convert Colorspace to choose the target colourspace (top section) and the measured profile (middle section); setting options / LUT algorithm (bottom section).
Upload the cube by unchecking the upload NULL box, which will upload the currently selected LUT to the currently active CMS. It uploads a calculated 1D and 3D lut together as a pair (they're both generated mathematically from the one profile pass).


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> It is pretty much:
> 
> Set up patch generation in the Lumagen . . . .


It sounds fairly straight forward, and it almost sounds like you’re half way to writing a primer yourself - add a few dozen annotated screen grabs, pad out the instructions so it’s a bit more like painting by numbers, and I think it’ll be there! 

Seriously though, if you ever get time to put one together, I’m sure I’m not the only one that would find it useful.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> It sounds fairly straight forward, and it almost sounds like you’re half way to writing a primer yourself - add a few dozen annotated screen grabs, pad out the instructions so it’s a bit more like painting by numbers, and I think it’ll be there!
> 
> Seriously though, if you ever get time to put one together, I’m sure I’m not the only one that would find it useful.


Maybe next time I run a cal I will leave a screen recorder running and then maybe I can edit something together.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

So, can someone explain to a newbie what this all means?

If I buy the lumagen, what do I do then? do I buy a lightmeter? does it come with software? or do I buy that seperate? Do I have to be a trained professional to figure it out? or is there a walk thru tutorial. ?

Do I just leave the projector on out of the box settings and the lumagen changes evertyhing it needs on the input signal? or does the software tell me what to change on the projector? Is this close to or the same as an ISF calibration?

Or do I still have to hire someone to come and do that?


----------



## sjschaff

gadgetfreaky said:


> So, can someone explain to a newbie what this all means?
> 
> If I buy the lumagen, what do I do then? do I buy a lightmeter? does it come with software? or do I buy that seperate? Do I have to be a trained professional to figure it out? or is there a walk thru tutorial. ?
> 
> Do I just leave the projector on out of the box settings and the lumagen changes evertyhing it needs on the input signal? or does the software tell me what to change on the projector? Is this close to or the same as an ISF calibration?
> 
> Or do I still have to hire someone to come and do that?


 The Radiance Pro is a great product but somewhat beyond most of us to properly configure, let alone use with CalMAN or other software and probes, etc. to have a calibration done. 

First thing is to call Lumagen to get their assessment of what you're attempting.

Get an expert if you're likely to want HDR calibration. That area is truly, at this point in time, a mess and likely to cause you grief trying to do on your own. I know, I've been there as a so-called "enthusiast" of CalMAN. Just had Chad in yesterday to do his magic. What a difference. He uncovered many issues with my setup and calibration efforts. In future I'll look to far better display technology, mostly in terms of usability, stability, fewer artifacts, and ease of calibration by the average joe, etc. Even then I'll schedule a pro to come in soon after any new purchase. I know enough, at this point, just how much I don't know...


----------



## Mike_WI

sjschaff said:


> The Radiance Pro is a great product but somewhat beyond most of us to properly configure, let alone use with CalMAN or other software and probes, etc. to have a calibration done.
> 
> First thing is to call Lumagen to get their assessment of what you're attempting.
> 
> Get an expert if you're likely to want HDR calibration. That area is truly, at this point in time, a mess and likely to cause you grief trying to do on your own. I know, I've been there as a so-called "enthusiast" of CalMAN. Just had Chad in yesterday to do his magic. What a difference. He uncovered many issues with my setup and calibration efforts. In future I'll look to far better display technology, mostly in terms of usability, stability, fewer artifacts, and ease of calibration by the average joe, etc. Even then I'll schedule a pro to come in soon after any new purchase. I know enough, at this point, just how much I don't know...


Did Chad use the Lumagen to calibrate?


----------



## sjschaff

He chased me out of the room, so I didn't get to see precisely what he was up to. I'm guessing it was a mix of direct work on both the JVC RS-500 and Lumagen Pro. He's got his own mix of CalMAN driven steps. I believe for HDR the activities were based on prior and rather lengthy calibrations and results from those using Lumagen models as a basis. 



For me it's the results that count. Given that he's been at this since the turn of the century, I'd say he's mastered his craft.


----------



## SJHT

Maybe just me because this is a hobby, but I would not hire any calibrator that didn’t allow me to stay in the room and ask some questions. They have plenty of time especially when Calman is running measurements. SJ


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> Maybe just me because this is a hobby, but I would not hire any calibrator that didn’t allow me to stay in the room and ask some questions. They have plenty of time especially when Calman is running measurements. SJ


Can you imagine the uproar though from the animal rights lobby when it is revealed that pro calibrators round the globe are cleaning the lens with freshly squeezed unicorn tears?


----------



## uderman

2u units are removed from the lumagen website. Are they now discontinued?


----------



## SJHT

The picture was changed to a 1U unit. But the description still has all of them. Would not be enough inputs for my setup unless they change it. SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Maybe just me because this is a hobby, but I would not hire any calibrator that didn’t allow me to stay in the room and ask some questions. They have plenty of time especially when Calman is running measurements. SJ


I stayed in the room when Chad calibrated my projector. You need to give input time to time. Wasn't a problem. Mostly I observed.


----------



## Chad B

Mike_WI said:


> Did Chad use the Lumagen to calibrate?




Yes, I had the Lumagen do the tone mapping. 

I answer all my customer’s questions. I just don’t like to feel like I’m being watched while I work especially if I am dealing with a particularly difficult or unusual situation; it just adds to the stress level. In those cases, if I am not asked, I say something along the lines of I prefer working by myself. I think most people would want their calibrator to be as relaxed and stress free as possible when he’s making judgement calls about HDR tone mapping. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> 2u units are removed from the lumagen website. Are they now discontinued?


The 2U version of the Radiance Pro 444X is now housed in a 1U case. We switched all Radiance Pro products to 1U for manufacturing reasons. 

However, note there is an exception in that the Radiance Pro 424X is available in a small, non-rack-mount "compact" case (424x-C). This is intended for calibrators and/or instructors who need to carry a unit with them. We have also sold a few to people with limited space for the Radiance Pro.

We updated the Lumagen website front page, but still need to remove the 2U from some other pages.


----------



## jrp

The Radiance Pro initial release of dynamic tone mapping is getting closer but we have been off on a bug hunt concerning Image Based Auto Aspect which seems to have been getting more use of late. We have always prioritized bug fixes higher than new features and this is no exception. Patrick should be back working on dynamic tone mapping soon.

==== 

Please note that if you have a bug report, you should email Lumagen support. If it is urgent, or hard to express in an email, you can call Lumagen support. Usually email is best. Please make sure you are on the latest release first, and include as much information as possible including how to create the bug, sources TV/projector, audio processor, connections, and (very important) brand, model, and length of HDMI cables and where they are connected. We also like to get pictures of the four "Info pages" (press OK on the remote, take picture, repeat for all four info pages).

Certainly fine if you post that you have found the bug and are contacting Lumagen, but please do not expect a response to your post from Lumagen. You might get a Lumagen response of course, but might not. Posting is helpful as it will let others know about the potential bug and some may have a comment or resolution.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> The Radiance Pro initial release of dynamic tone mapping is getting closer but we have been off on a bug hunt concerning Image Based Auto Aspect which seems to have been getting more use of late. We have always prioritized bug fixes higher than new features and this is no exception. Patrick should be back working on dynamic tone mapping soon.


I for one am extremely grateful for the bug fixes to auto aspect. I've been using it to "family friendly" correct masking and calibration in my home theatre - it really gets my goat having a masking screen that I'm the only one to get the benefit of if it is driven manually (these things cost way too much for what they are as it is). It is working really well now it seems with most content; just seen some reluctance with AppleTV HDR content. 

---------- 

For anyone who is wondering; I've just re-written what was a horrid shell script running on a Raspberry Pi in something a little nicer - python - though the script is still a bit quick and dirty. I'll probably iterate over this and make it do a bit more in terms of parsing the Lumagen status outputs.

There really isn't much required. This script waits for serial lines to appear, then works out what the command received is, and if it is a V2 report (you have to enable them in comms menu) it parses it to get the aspect reported. It then grabs a particular URL based on what the aspect is - that is how I set the aspect of the screen in my home control system. It just sits in a loop forever waiting. This script has the added advantage of working with both the output of the auto aspect logic and also the manually selected aspect ratios, so it is quite useful even if you're not using auto aspect and have a mask screen.

Took about 90 mins to work out how to do this, much of that being due to limited knowledge of Python! I'm not a huge fan, the use of whitespace as an active code element and case sensitivity of Python drives me a little up the wall 


Code:


rakoip = "192.168.xxx.xxx"

screencommands = {
        "178": "3",
        "185": "4",
        "200": "5",
        "220": "5",
        "235": "6",
        "240": "1",
        }

rakocommand = rakoip + "/rako.cgi?room=10&ch=0&com="

import serial
import urllib2

ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600 )  # open serial port
print "serial port: " + ser.name         # check which port was really used

while True:
        print "--------------------------------------"
        line = ser.readline()     # read a line
        print "Lumagen line:" + line # print line
        command = ""
        arguments = ""
        foundcmd = False
        endcmd = False
        for char in line:
                if endcmd:
                        arguments = arguments + char
                if foundcmd and not endcmd:
                        if char not in ',':
                                command = command + char
                        else:
                                endcmd = True
                if not foundcmd:
                        if char in '!':
                                foundcmd = True
        print "Lumagen command: " + command
        print "Lumagen arguments: " + arguments
        if command == "I22":
                print "found v2 status report"
                argnum = 7
                currentarg = 1
                argument = ""
                for char in arguments:
                        if char not in ',' and currentarg == argnum:
                                argument = argument + char
                        if char in ',':
                                currentarg = currentarg + 1
                print "aspect reported: " + argument
                url = "http://" + rakocommand + screencommands.get (argument)
                print "URL to get: " + url
                request = urllib2.Request(url)
                contents = urllib2.urlopen(request).read()
ser.close()             # close port


----------



## stefanop

bobof said:


> I for one am extremely grateful for the bug fixes to auto aspect. I've been using it to "family friendly" correct masking and calibration in my home theatre - it really gets my goat having a masking screen that I'm the only one to get the benefit of if it is driven manually (these things cost way too much for what they are as it is). It is working really well now it seems with most content; just seen some reluctance with AppleTV HDR content.
> 
> For anyone who is wondering; I've just re-written what was a horrid shell script running on a Raspberry Pi in something a little nicer - python - though the script is still a bit quick and dirty. I'll probably iterate over this and make it do a bit more in terms of parsing the Lumagen status outputs.
> 
> There really isn't much required. This script waits for serial lines to appear, then works out what the command received is, and if it is a V2 report (you have to enable them in comms menu) it parses it to get the aspect reported. It then grabs a particular URL based on what the aspect is - that is how I set the aspect of the screen in my home control system. It just sits in a loop forever waiting. This script has the added advantage of working with both the output of the auto aspect logic and also the manually selected aspect ratios, so it is quite useful even if you're not using auto aspect and have a mask screen.
> 
> Took about 90 mins to work out how to do this, much of that being due to limited knowledge of Python! I'm not a huge fan, the use of whitespace as an active code element and case sensitivity of Python drives me a little up the wall
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> rakoip = "192.168.xxx.xxx"
> 
> screencommands = {
> "178": "3",
> "185": "4",
> "200": "5",
> "220": "5",
> "235": "6",
> "240": "1",
> }
> 
> rakocommand = rakoip + "/rako.cgi?room=10&ch=0&com="
> 
> import serial
> import urllib2
> 
> ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600 )  # open serial port
> print "serial port: " + ser.name         # check which port was really used
> 
> while True:
> print "--------------------------------------"
> line = ser.readline()     # read a line
> print "Lumagen line:" + line # print line
> command = ""
> arguments = ""
> foundcmd = False
> endcmd = False
> for char in line:
> if endcmd:
> arguments = arguments + char
> if foundcmd and not endcmd:
> if char not in ',':
> command = command + char
> else:
> endcmd = True
> if not foundcmd:
> if char in '!':
> foundcmd = True
> print "Lumagen command: " + command
> print "Lumagen arguments: " + arguments
> if command == "I22":
> print "found v2 status report"
> argnum = 7
> currentarg = 1
> argument = ""
> for char in arguments:
> if char not in ',' and currentarg == argnum:
> argument = argument + char
> if char in ',':
> currentarg = currentarg + 1
> print "aspect reported: " + argument
> url = "http://" + rakocommand + screencommands.get (argument)
> print "URL to get: " + url
> request = urllib2.Request(url)
> contents = urllib2.urlopen(request).read()
> ser.close()             # close port


Same logic I used for an application I wrote based on .NET framework and it works but as I've reported to Lumagen and as reported from some former there's still something in Radiance to be fixed up in order to reach 2.35 frame recognition. Sometime it jumps from 2.35 to 1.78 and back.
In Lumagen bug fixing is a priority and their support is second to none in my experience. With next firmware I'm sure it'll be working perfectly.


----------



## bobof

stefanop said:


> Same logic I used for an application I wrote based on .NET framework and it works but as I've reported to Lumagen and as reported from some former there's still something in Radiance to be fixed up in order to reach 2.35 frame recognition. Sometime it jumps from 2.35 to 1.78 and back.
> In Lumagen bug fixing is a priority and their support is second to none in my experience. With next firmware I'm sure it'll be working perfectly.


Fingers crossed. I've seen it steadily become much, much better. I'm sure the remaining issues are "baked in" to the content / source black level fidelity - yesterday I saw the same HDR content on AppleTV not work well (DV converted to "HDR10_ish_lol"), but work fine when played via my Sony UHD player in HDR10. 

It's obviously a fine line between detecting quickly correctly and staying locked in, and not having false detections. From what I could see the only issues left look like these "marginal" cases. Of course to the end user they don't look hard at all as we can't see what is going on in the black bars usually. 

For me auto-aspect is a real stand-out feature in the product and really adds both "wow" feeling to the theatre and enhances PQ of the presentation. Arguably with the quality of image being put out by most projectors these days via their internal controls (at least for SDR) there is more overall PQ benefit to a correctly masked image than there is to 3DLUT calibration. Of course if you have a Kaleidescape system you have instant aspect information available, and with an HTPC you could similarly implement 100% accurate aspect info; but increasingly with content reaching us through streaming means via a multitude of services and products something like the Lumagen Pro is the only way to achieve it for all sources (in fact, I think it is the only "consumer" way to do this - I've seen something advertised for a particular Barco projector if I recall but I think that was $$$$$).


----------



## Gordon Fraser

gadgetfreaky said:


> So, can someone explain to a newbie what this all means?
> 
> If I buy the lumagen, what do I do then? do I buy a lightmeter? does it come with software? or do I buy that seperate? Do I have to be a trained professional to figure it out? or is there a walk thru tutorial. ?
> 
> Do I just leave the projector on out of the box settings and the lumagen changes evertyhing it needs on the input signal? or does the software tell me what to change on the projector? Is this close to or the same as an ISF calibration?
> 
> Or do I still have to hire someone to come and do that?



Depenmding on the initial accuracy of the displays rec709 or rec2020 or P3 colour settings you could just plug and play a Pro and set up some intial parameters to give you, most likely, superior HDR playback performance on many displays. Using a basic probe like a DisplayPro3 probe and some simple software like LightSpace you could, with a little learning, quickly learn how to do basic set up and calibratrion on your display followed by additional LUT based calibrations using the Lumagen as the colour processor. 



It was a year ago that i said i'd do a basic video walk through of this but i have been very busy. I really should try to get on to that


----------



## GGA

I don't own the Pro but have owned the XS and previous models for a number of years. I hope my question will be applicable to Pro users.


Streaming from Amazon and Netflix now includes a number of foreign shows. These seem to be shown at 1080p25 or 1080p30. When I upscale to 4K with my Oppo 203 is there a consensus whether l080p25 should be shown at 4K25p or 4K50p? Similarly for 1080p30, 4K30p or 4K60p?


Since 1080p24 is upscaled to 4K24p and not 4K48p it seems we should stay at 25p and 30p.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

AidenL said:


> I’m thinking I may invest in a Lumagen to avail of the dynamic tone mapping which is incoming.
> 
> 
> 
> I can’t spare the time to mess around with Mad VR and so on, life’s too short, and time is too precious.
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering what all you owners consider to be the best feature, most used and most beneficial?


I use Lumagen for about 4-5 years can't remember exactly. What the best thing I love in Lumagen is the calibration abilities to your display, especially the 3d Lut calibration. If done in proper hands with mind thinking you will get absolutely superb stunning result. On the other hand Lumagen is the only one video processor, which works with many different inputs as many as you want and applies tone mapping as required, also soon should be dynamic tone mapping be present. From those one of the mains features, there are tons of others starting from scaling and ending with easier setups with anamorphic lens with NLS stretches and etc. It is a great video processor to the current time and is the best in the world. Every penny I've spent on it is absolutely worth it, do don't even doubt if you have budget just spend on that item and then you'll find yourself that you cannot live without it  

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## OzHDHT

bobof said:


> I've been using it for a couple of years now. Cut my teeth just doing SDR LUTs, then hacked around doing HDR LUTs for my old X30 JVC with the 2143 (using a Linker to force output of the WCG2020 data at 1080p to the 2143), and now got the Pro. The LS docs are pretty good and you have the benefit that Steve is here in our timezone and appears to not sleep, so will reply it seems at most times within hours. There are a few things about the interface and graphs which are a bit idiosyncratic, and it isn't a great tool for manual (interactive) calibration, but for 3DLUT I don't think it really has any competition. I did own CP3 and really didn't get on with that at all, I've seen CM being used and don't like the restrictive workflow.
> 
> Once you get your head round profiling and LUT generation being separate things you do it is actually pretty straightforward - especially if you're already across the technical reqs, which is where a lot of CM users I think fall down because Calman significantly lowers the bar in terms of what you need to understand to be able to get some kind of calibration done.
> 
> It is pretty much:
> 
> Set up patch generation in the Lumagen or an external patch gen (oddly, under Upload). Upload a NULL cube to the currently active CMS by checking the box.
> Go to Calibration interface - it will ask you to connect to the meter. Spend a little time taking some manual readings and quick profiles to figure out how you're going to set up the projector in what modes for what you are trying to achieve.
> Go to Display Characterisation and set up the cube or patch sequence you are going to profile. Run the profile.
> Use Convert Colorspace to choose the target colourspace (top section) and the measured profile (middle section); setting options / LUT algorithm (bottom section).
> Upload the cube by unchecking the upload NULL box, which will upload the currently selected LUT to the currently active CMS. It uploads a calculated 1D and 3D lut together as a pair (they're both generated mathematically from the one profile pass).



I've had my Lumagen for a good 9 months now and finally started delving into CP3 as I've been extremely happy with JVC autocal to date (as limited as it is) with my 4500. I pretty quickly found I really didn't like CP3 much at all and now keen for an alternative. Souinds like LS could be the go now that I am on the thread reading the recent feedback here.


----------



## bobof

OzHDHT said:


> I've had my Lumagen for a good 9 months now and finally started delving into CP3 as I've been extremely happy with JVC autocal to date (as limited as it is) with my 4500. I pretty quickly found I really didn't like CP3 much at all and now keen for an alternative. Souinds like LS could be the go now that I am on the thread reading the recent feedback here.


I had CP3 and was unimpressed with the LUT generation. From what I understand from watching it in action it basically iterated over the LUT points trying to lower their dE, and stopped once it got to a certain dE threshold. It's an annoying way to do it:
1) why limit how good you could get
2) it seemed to result in quite wonky greyscales, I guess because it was just lowering the dE, rather than doing math to try and keep all the errors the same side of grey. I'd often end up with a grey then a pink then a green (exagerated) in the low end greyscale.
3) you had to set the target you were adjusting to before starting the LUT process, and couldn't re-target or adjust after the fact,

Lightspace is nice. It very much feels like a no-nonsense no-frills pro tool, which is exactly what it is. From what I've seen it appears their 3DLUT math is the best in the business; I've not used Calman but friends have and haven't been impressed (your mileage may vary). Lightspace has been constantly improved significantly over the period I've owned it, and I've not had to buy any updates in that time as they've had a "no updates charge" policy forever. The Lumagen integration works well.

Being critical my gripes would be:
a) manual calibration; the interface isn't that helpful to the task in hand (free HCFR does a better job on the usability for what you need to achieve during manual cal. But for setting up the pre-conditions for LUT in the display it is more than adequate
b) one of the charts is a bit non-standard for HT use (gamma difference instead of absolute gamma as it both appears upside down to what you might expect, is difficult to scale and doesn't show the actual target gamma). This one is a bit of an idealogical war still with Light Illusion it seems...  I doubt it will ever change.
c) the license cost is tied to some features and some meter options - you get more meters and LUT math options with HTP. HTL (the least expensive option) supports entry level meters like i1d3, spyder, i1pro. You have to buy the much more reasuringly HTP level at least to support high end meters like Kleins / Jetis / Colorimetry Research / Minolta etc. There is a bit of an anomally there I think in that even the Discus (a £700 colorimeter) is included in the HTP level but not HTL. Which meant I had to get HTP. As it happens I have a Jeti now so I'd have to have bought HTP anyway (eventually).

Steve is very responsive to support queries and clearly very knowledgeable, support is first rate.

Anyway, worth giving a go. If you can afford a long calibration weekend you can buy a time limited 3 day license to play with it.


----------



## darksets

How smart is the auto aspect detection? If I switch my cable tv channel from a channel playing a 1.78:1 movie to one playing a 2.35:1 movie will it detect it?


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> How smart is the auto aspect detection? If I switch my cable tv channel from a channel playing a 1.78:1 movie to one playing a 2.35:1 movie will it detect it?


Yes* it will. I love this feature as I have it automating the electric masks on my screen which open and close automatically in time with the content.

*At the moment there are some titles auto-aspect is reluctant to detect on, or detects and flip-flops in. It seems from discussions with Lumagen support these are titles where there is noise in the bars / and / or they're not pure video black. Anyway, Lumagen are working on it.


----------



## OzHDHT

bobof said:


> I had CP3 and was unimpressed with the LUT generation. From what I understand from watching it in action it basically iterated over the LUT points trying to lower their dE, and stopped once it got to a certain dE threshold. It's an annoying way to do it:
> 1) why limit how good you could get
> 2) it seemed to result in quite wonky greyscales, I guess because it was just lowering the dE, rather than doing math to try and keep all the errors the same side of grey. I'd often end up with a grey then a pink then a green (exagerated) in the low end greyscale.
> 3) you had to set the target you were adjusting to before starting the LUT process, and couldn't re-target or adjust after the fact,
> 
> Lightspace is nice. It very much feels like a no-nonsense no-frills pro tool, which is exactly what it is. From what I've seen it appears their 3DLUT math is the best in the business; I've not used Calman but friends have and haven't been impressed (your mileage may vary). Lightspace has been constantly improved significantly over the period I've owned it, and I've not had to buy any updates in that time as they've had a "no updates charge" policy forever. The Lumagen integration works well.
> 
> Being critical my gripes would be:
> a) manual calibration; the interface isn't that helpful to the task in hand (free HCFR does a better job on the usability for what you need to achieve during manual cal. But for setting up the pre-conditions for LUT in the display it is more than adequate
> b) one of the charts is a bit non-standard for HT use (gamma difference instead of absolute gamma as it both appears upside down to what you might expect, is difficult to scale and doesn't show the actual target gamma). This one is a bit of an idealogical war still with Light Illusion it seems...  I doubt it will ever change.
> c) the license cost is tied to some features and some meter options - you get more meters and LUT math options with HTP. HTL (the least expensive option) supports entry level meters like i1d3, spyder, i1pro. You have to buy the much more reasuringly HTP level at least to support high end meters like Kleins / Jetis / Colorimetry Research / Minolta etc. There is a bit of an anomally there I think in that even the Discus (a £700 colorimeter) is included in the HTP level but not HTL. Which meant I had to get HTP. As it happens I have a Jeti now so I'd have to have bought HTP anyway (eventually).
> 
> Steve is very responsive to support queries and clearly very knowledgeable, support is first rate.
> 
> Anyway, worth giving a go. If you can afford a long calibration weekend you can buy a time limited 3 day license to play with it.



Thanks bobof, great feedback there. I'll definitely look into LightSpace!


----------



## ronaks

Will POP and PIP support just two sources? Any chance we will be able to get 4 sources up at once?


----------



## LJG

ronaks said:


> Will POP and PIP support just two sources? Any chance we will be able to get 4 sources up at once?


While I would love this feature I don't believe its on the road map at all. I for one would pay an additional upgrade charge for this feature.


----------



## SJHT

LJG said:


> While I would love this feature I don't believe its on the road map at all. I for one would pay an additional upgrade charge for this feature.


Assume you are meaning for more than 2 sources. PIP/POP is still on the roadmap!

SJ


----------



## LJG

SJHT said:


> Assume you are meaning for more than 2 sources. PIP/POP is still on the roadmap!
> 
> SJ


I believe the OP was referring to a multi window of 4, and that is what I was referencing.


----------



## thrang

Let's go Jimmy and Patty, I'm getting bored - gimme some tone mapping firmware!

If we're casting votes, that's probably of greater interest to users than the auto aspect change bug (all due respect to those patiently waiting for that!). At least for the pigs like me who use the Paladin DCR...

I'M BORED! "111718" looks so OLD in the OSD...

ok, rant over...


----------



## darksets

thrang said:


> Let's go Jimmy and Patty, I'm getting bored - gimme some tone mapping firmware!
> 
> If we're casting votes, that's probably of greater interest to users than the auto aspect change bug (all due respect to those patiently waiting for that!). At least for the pigs like me who use the Paladin DCR...
> 
> I'M BORED! "111718" looks so OLD in the OSD...
> 
> ok, rant over...



I will cast a vote the other way. The auto aspect bug is much more important. Unless your projector is capable of producing 100 fL your HDR picture can't be salvaged by anamorphic lenses, don't fool yourself.


----------



## thrang

darksets said:


> I will cast a vote the other way. The auto aspect bug is much more important. Unless your projector is capable of producing 100 fL your HDR picture can't be salvaged by anamorphic lenses, don't fool yourself.


Even with the understood limitations, there is a definite difference between hdr and sdr in my setup, so I vote a SECOND time for tone mapping firmware!  And the frame based tone mapping should improve things further.


----------



## darksets

thrang said:


> Even with the understood limitations, there is a definite difference between hdr and sdr in my setup, so I vote a SECOND time for tone mapping firmware!  And the frame based tone mapping should improve things further.



Well ok, I'll vote for both I'm sure Lumagen will take care of all of us anyway.


----------



## Eventidal

Definitely dynamic tone mapping! Everything else is not even close on my priority list...


----------



## BCWookie

Do any of you run a PC or Xbox your other console through the Lumagen?
Does it add significant lag?
I will be running Gaming pc/Xbox one X. ——->Marantz 8805 ——>Lumagen pro —->Sony 5000 projector.

I was wondering about using this for basic gaming but also possibly HDR with tone mapping..


----------



## stefanop

BCWookie said:


> Do any of you run a PC or Xbox your other console through the Lumagen?
> Does it add significant lag?
> I will be running Gaming pc/Xbox one X. ——->Marantz 8805 ——>Lumagen pro —->Sony 5000 projector.
> 
> I was wondering about using this for basic gaming but also possibly HDR with tone mapping..


65-70ms with radiance tone mapping and sony frame interpolation SOURCE->RADIANCE->SONY


----------



## BCWookie

stefanop said:


> 65-70ms with radiance tone mapping and sony frame interpolation SOURCE->RADIANCE->SONY


That is pretty high for gaming- is there any adjustments that can be made to make it lower? turn off tone mapping etc. Game mode on projector. Anyone have experience with gaming?


----------



## dlinsley

Has anyone used the new matrix conversion to convert Rec709 to BT2020?

I have the JVC RS3000 and these new models still don't autoswitch between color profiles from what I can see (it does support using the HDR flag to switch modes though). My DirecTV 4k receiver outputs all SDR in 2020, and so far I'm needing to manually switch color profile when switching between TV and BD or Roku. I intend to try the matrix conversion to avoid this, and was just wondering if anyone had been successful and had any gotchas / useful tips.

Ideally I'd like to not need the Vertex to RS232 control the JVC this round - I did this with the RS600 to switch between my profiles for SDR and HDR since the HDR flag forced Gamma D there - but for my family I need this all automated and hope the matrix conversion gets me there without the extra box.


----------



## Wookii

stefanop said:


> 65-70ms with radiance tone mapping and sony frame interpolation SOURCE->RADIANCE->SONY


I’d assume the FI is adding quite a bit of latency there. I think the Sony’s go down to about 40ms or so in low latency mode, and I suspect that what the Radiance adds is negligible.



BCWookie said:


> That is pretty high for gaming- is there any adjustments that can be made to make it lower? turn off tone mapping etc. Game mode on projector. Anyone have experience with gaming?


65-70ms isn’t particularly high, but I’d imagine having the projector in low latency mode (without the FI engaged as mentioned above) you’ll be sub-50ms.

I don’t notice any latency issues in HDR gaming at all, PS4Pro > Radiance Pro > Sony 760 - regularly get top 3 placing in CODWWII, by far the bigger problem is other players with poor connections (which an open NAT can help with).


----------



## jaychatbonneau

BCWookie said:


> That is pretty high for gaming- is there any adjustments that can be made to make it lower? turn off tone mapping etc. Game mode on projector. Anyone have experience with gaming?


I would game without the HDR. IMHO HDR as currently implemented just doesn't do much to improve the gaming experience.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen vs Oppo 203 vs JVC RS520 Tone Mapping*

For those that don't follow the *Wisconsin Area Home Theater Meet Thread*:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-a...-wisconsin-area-home-theater-meet-thread.html


Reformatted and bold added for clarity in this sub-forum

I thought I'd mention these posts here: @pennynike1

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-a...home-theater-meet-thread-37.html#post57547290


> What a great weekend. It isn't often that I get to witness 2 excellent tone mapping devices, especially so close-in-time together, but that is exactly what @SOWK was able to arrange for me this weekend! Thanks Tony!!
> 
> On Friday, I had the opportunity to meet @SirMaster , and Tony and I got the unique opportunity to see what an amazing job the MadVr handled tone mapping with the NX9.
> I really felt it was truly amazing on my 13 foot wide screen!! It was great to meet you Nick, and thank you for the suggestions for the gaming PC build as well. A very sincere welcome to the WI group
> 
> Today, Mike was nice enough to allow me to see his JVC 520 in action with an ISCO III anamorphic lens, combined with a Lumagen.
> While it was not apples to apples due to smaller screen size and added brightness associated with the lens, *I was extremely impressed with how the Lumagen handled the tone mapping as compared to the JVC 520 itself and the Oppo*.


I had been waiting for a professional calibration because of my busyness and new FW updates always coming.
@SOWK did a great job optimizing everything by eye alone -- no instruments. He used a hard drive of test patterns.
The difference was very obvious.

He went through the exercise of checking the various locations for tone mapping - Oppo 203, JVC RS520, or Lumagen Radiance Pro. The Lumagen was really superior.

I still hope to get a professional calibration eventually and compare his "eyeballing" vs an instrumented calibration.
Also waiting for the dynamic tone mapping firmware updates.


----------



## Wookii

jaychatbonneau said:


> I would game without the HDR. IMHO HDR as currently implemented just doesn't do much to improve the gaming experience.


You must be playing the wrong games! The only game I’ve played that hasn’t looked fantastic in HDR is Red Dead 2, and that’s only because they botched the HDR implementation.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

My understanding is that the Radiance Pro will NEVER be able to give us the benefit of Dolby Vision because they are unable to obtain licensing of the technology from Dolby. I assume this is because the licensing is so expensive and a small company like Lumagen simply can't afford it? Has anyone heard of this changing?

I appreciate that all 4k discs and streaming video which are encoded for Dolby Vision are also encoded for HDR10. So at least we get that benefit in the Radiance Pro's tone mapping for our projectors.

I understand anytime now - hopefully - there will be a firmware upgrade for the Radiance Pro where it does dynamic frame by frame tone mapping. YES! Will this make the lack of Dolby Vision for the Radiance Pro no longer be an issue? If not, what if the Radiance Pro firmware could be upgraded to allow a player or streamer which can tonemap Dolby Vision HDR, such as the Oppo 203/205 or other players which do this, so you could set the player to perhaps tonemap some and then the Radiance Pro could interpret this and improve upon this to give us the best tone mapping for Dolby Vision. Now this idea of mine is strictly off the wall and I have no idea if this could be done but I thought I'd raise the point.


----------



## Wookii

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> My understanding is that the Radiance Pro will NEVER be able to give us the benefit of Dolby Vision because they are unable to obtain licensing of the technology from Dolby. I assume this is because the licensing is so expensive and a small company like Lumagen simply can't afford it? Has anyone heard of this changing?


I don’t believe it’s got anything to do with cost afaik Steve, it’s simply that Dolby’s current stance is that they will not certify a device that doesn’t have a known peak brightness output and therefore a known tone map. So that includes any video processor, projector or source device, and is why only flat panels are getting bestowed with DV.

I suspect that won’t change until mainstream flat panels start hitting 4000nits or more, potentially rendering DV redundant and eating into Dolby licence fees, at which points they’ll open up the flood gates to gain more licensing revenue.



Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I appreciate that all 4k discs and streaming video which are encoded for Dolby Vision are also encoded for HDR10. So at least we get that benefit in the Radiance Pro's tone mapping for our projectors.
> 
> I understand anytime now - hopefully - there will be a firmware upgrade for the Radiance Pro where it does dynamic frame by frame tone mapping. YES! Will this make the lack of Dolby Vision for the Radiance Pro no longer be an issue? If not, what if the Radiance Pro firmware could be upgraded to allow a player or streamer which can tonemap Dolby Vision HDR, such as the Oppo 203/205 or other players which do this, so you could set the player to perhaps tonemap some and then the Radiance Pro could interpret this and improve upon this to give us the best tone mapping for Dolby Vision. Now this idea of mine is strictly off the wall and I have no idea if this could be done but I thought I'd raise the point.


Players don’t tone map the DV content, they’re simply certified allow reading of the DV metadata and pass through to the DV display.

I fully believe that once Lumagens Dynamic IM is refined it will give results that will at least equal, if not surpass DV.

Between future flat panel brightness increases and Lumagen (and no doubt eventually source and projector manufacturers) releasing their own dynamic tone mapping, DV looks to me to have a fairly limitef shelf life, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it.


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> My understanding is that the Radiance Pro will NEVER be able to give us the benefit of Dolby Vision because they are unable to obtain licensing of the technology from Dolby. I assume this is because the licensing is so expensive and a small company like Lumagen simply can't afford it? Has anyone heard of this changing?
> 
> I appreciate that all 4k discs and streaming video which are encoded for Dolby Vision are also encoded for HDR10. So at least we get that benefit in the Radiance Pro's tone mapping for our projectors.
> 
> I understand anytime now - hopefully - there will be a firmware upgrade for the Radiance Pro where it does dynamic frame by frame tone mapping. YES! Will this make the lack of Dolby Vision for the Radiance Pro no longer be an issue? If not, what if the Radiance Pro firmware could be upgraded to allow a player or streamer which can tonemap Dolby Vision HDR, such as the Oppo 203/205 or other players which do this, so you could set the player to perhaps tonemap some and then the Radiance Pro could interpret this and improve upon this to give us the best tone mapping for Dolby Vision. Now this idea of mine is strictly off the wall and I have no idea if this could be done but I thought I'd raise the point.


I don't think it is as simple as money, though ultimately most stuff does boil down to that.
A device like the Pro doesn't sit in the DV ecosystem as an entity that could exist and be certified. Per my understanding DV TVs and players all run software provided by Dolby, and the function of that software once integrated is verified by Dolby to show compliance with their standards. A device which is a processor of DV for any display doesn't have easily definable IO that you can measure against such a standard.

On the point of DV encoding ; while discs are laid out as an HDR10 base layer with a DV overlay (which is a subpicture the DV player or TV can "flatten" into a single image); streaming services do not transmit in this way. They send something called "DV profile 5" usually which has no HDR10 backwards compatibility. The way the AppleTV displays this content on HDR10 displays is to "play out" the DV internally and output it as HDR10. You can observe this behaviour using the Apple developer HUD.

I'm not sure exactly what the OPPO players do if you ask them to output HDR10 from a DV disc - they could just be outputting the HDR10 base layer. In which case the DV option would give no benefit. 

Although dynamic tone mapping systems can offer a lot, they are not the golden ticket. They have a limited time horizon and have to guess at things like scene transitions within the time constraints they have and the images they have in front of them (I think the Lumagen at the cost of latency could have up to a 6 frame horizon (perhaps)). I imagine once available the Lumagen setup will be one of the best available, but really what you really, really want is a well implemented and open dynamic metadata system. HDR10+ could be that, except it seems a bit >ehem< slow off the blocks (perhaps I'd go so far as DOA).

There are a handful of HDR10+ discs making their way into the market, Lumagen could add HDR10+ support to the product, but it would be a shame if it would be wasted effort due to lack of adoption of the format.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 112818*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 112818*
Improvements to P3 colorspace output option. 
Improved image based input auto-aspect detection. 
Update to new 18 Ghz output firmware. 
Couple other minor improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware -- also takes extra minute on first power-up after update to bring up picture.


...EDIT Updated text 02/05/2019...


*Beta 112818*
Improvements to P3 colorspace output option. 
Improved image based input auto-aspect detection. 
Updated 'new' 18 Ghz output firmware. 
The 'original' 18 Ghz output firmware has not changed and remains the default. 
Press "menu 0851" to switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware or "menu 0850" to switch to original firmware. 
Couple other minor improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware -- also takes extra minute on first power-up after update to bring up picture.


----------



## Mike_WI

@jrp can you expand on the "Update to new 18 Ghz output firmware."

I previously tried the new 18 GHz microcode and it didn't work so I toggled back to the old 18 GHz microcode and I'm still on it.
What was I missing then and what is new now.
Everything is working well, so I don't want to mess anything up, but I am curious.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike_WI said:


> @jrp can you expand on the "Update to new 18 Ghz output firmware."
> 
> I previously tried the new 18 GHz microcode and it didn't work so I toggled back to the old 18 GHz microcode and I'm still on it.
> What was I missing then and what is new now.
> Everything is working well, so I don't want to mess anything up, but I am curious.


Same for me! The new 18 GHz microcode caused big issues with my Sony 5000ES projector! Does the updated new microcode fix this issue?


----------



## bobof

For what it is worth I seem to get better results when using genlock and the new output microcode than I have done in the past on my 18G cards. Of course that isn't to say everyone will benefit as this does all seem a little "fussy" and dependent on partner gear. For what it is worth I'm using an 18G HDBT solution from Atlona at the output which is also due a FW update I see now, no doubt that will break everything for me...(!)

The auto aspect stuff seems to have made a real huge jump in performance, I've never seen it work so well and am very happy with it now. Since this update (I've had it for a little while) I've not had a single incorrect detection or "bounce" out of correct aspect, and it has always detected the bars (eventually). On occasion it can take a little while to detect, but now you can almost always see on screen the reason for this (usually a very dark scene where there aren't distinct bars visible). As soon as there is a credible bar on screen it seems to detect robustly. Often the bars are detected before the JVC unblanks the screen during the mode change.

It even appears robust with the video encoded bars present in Netflix SDR and HDR titles, detecting 2.0 aspects well which is really nice. I find all content really benefits from correct masking, it is by far my favourite image enhancement.

Really happy that the auto aspect stuff at last seems to behave in a way which makes it really useful. Since loading this firmware I haven't manually changed aspect once, which says something.

Thanks Patrick, Jim and all!


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 112818*

EDIT Updated text 02/05/2019

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 112818*
Improvements to P3 colorspace output option. 
Improved image based input auto-aspect detection. 
Updated 'new' 18 Ghz output firmware. 
The 'original' 18 Ghz output firmware has not changed and remains the default. 
Press "menu 0851" to switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware or "menu 0850" to switch to original firmware. 
Couple other minor improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware -- also takes extra minute on first power-up after update to bring up picture.


----------



## thrang

Interestingly, I could not get signal with the new micro code in this version passing through the Trinnov. Just a black screen and no audio. Hard power cycled the Radiance multiple times and cycled inputs on the Trinnov and the Sony 5000.

I then hot plugged the Radiance video out directly to the 5000, and immediately got video. The earlier new microcode really disliked the 5000. Maybe this one dislikes the Trinnov.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> Interestingly, I could not get signal with the new micro code in this version passing through the Trinnov. Just a black screen and no audio. Hard power cycled the Radiance multiple times and cycled inputs on the Trinnov and the Sony 5000.
> 
> I then hot plugged the Radiance video out directly to the 5000, and immediately got video. The earlier new microcode really disliked the 5000. Maybe this one dislikes the Trinnov.


Lets see how well your Sony 5000 functions with the 18 GHz new microcode over the next week or so. When I used the new 18 GHz firmware with my 5000, initially it seemed fine but after a few days really screwed me over!


----------



## thrang

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Lets see how well your Sony 5000 functions with the 18 GHz new microcode over the next week or so. When I used the new 18 GHz firmware with my 5000, initially it seemed fine but after a few days really screwed me over!


Well, just try it and add to the testing feedback? You’re not “screwed over” as it’s easy enough to switch back. But yes, repeated boot cycles are the only way to know for sure


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> Well, just try it and add to the testing feedback? You’re not “screwed over” as it’s easy enough to switch back. But yes, repeated boot cycles are the only way to know for sure


Yea! When I used it before, my Radiance Pro locked up totally. However, Jim Peterson educated me to simply disconnect the HDMI cable to the projector and then it would switch back to the old 18 Ghz code no problem!


----------



## dinamigym

Tried newer 18 firmware after update. Whatever changed appears to work for me now. Never could use before and have stayed on old until this release. I go direct out from Lumagen to 5000. Time will tell, but for now, New appears to work at least as well as old for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mike_WI

dinamigym said:


> Tried newer 18 firmware after update. Whatever changed appears to work for me now. Never could use before and have stayed on old until this release. I go direct out from Lumagen to 5000. Time will tell, but for now, New appears to work at least as well as old for me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very good to know.
I will wait until after some travel to try with my JVC RS520 projector.
Anyone try it [18 GHz microcode] with JVC yet?


----------



## Unherdable

dlinsley said:


> Has anyone used the new matrix conversion to convert Rec709 to BT2020?


Yes, I use it to enable my Rec709 Digital Projection Insight Laser 4K to view Rec2020 material. The matrix conversion is [for me] the single best feature ever put out in a firmware update! So much so that I'm not going to bother updating my projector that is a few years old at this point until there is a decently bright projector available around the same price point. I also greatly prefer it over the LUT implementation I used before to fix the colors with Rec2020 sources. I have a Kaleidescape system, and many of my titles only had HDR versions, so this was a fabulous feature for me. I'm supremely content with how I have dialed in the tonemapping too, so I'm a happy camper.

And before anyone says it's not really HDR, rec2020 blah blah blah. Yes, I know, I do have several very nice Dolby Vision panels in my other AV installations too, but this conversion feature will definitely extend the useful life of my old Insight 4K and keep me happy.


----------



## msamblanet

Mike_WI said:


> EDIT Updated text 02/05/2019
> *Beta 112818*
> ...
> Updated 'new' 18 Ghz output firmware.
> The 'original' 18 Ghz output firmware has not changed and remains the default.
> Press "menu 0851" to switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware or "menu 0850" to switch to original firmware.


If we were previously using the new 18 Ghz output firmware, do we need to do anything special to upgrade to the new-new output firmware? Or is simply loading 112818 sufficient?


----------



## msamblanet

*Feedback on P3 conversion*

I've been debating if using P3 conversion would simplify calibration of my projector since I would not need HDR vs SDR cubes (although still high-low and filter/no-filter variations)...

I've not seen a lot of comments on people's experience with the color space conversions...does anybody who has tried this have any feedback on how these have worked out for them and recommendations for new victims...er...volunteers?


----------



## dinamigym

msamblanet said:


> If we were previously using the new 18 Ghz output firmware, do we need to do anything special to upgrade to the new-new output firmware? Or is simply loading 112818 sufficient?




I believe the default is the original 18 firmware so after loading latest update you’d have to reselect the new 18 manually.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## msamblanet

dinamigym said:


> I believe the default is the original 18 firmware so after loading latest update you’d have to reselect the new 18 manually.


I tried a Menu-0851 (after updating) and it gave me a message "Already on TX fw:1 no change" - of course I can't tell from that message if that is the "old-new" firmware or the "new-new" firmware, thus my question...

I do software development for a living and versioning is always sooooooo much fun


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz microcode old/new status*



msamblanet said:


> If we were previously using the new 18 Ghz output firmware, do we need to do anything special to upgrade to the new-new output firmware? Or is simply loading 112818 sufficient?





dinamigym said:


> I believe the default is the original 18 firmware so after loading latest update you’d have to reselect the new 18 manually.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


...and I think (???) that the 18 GHz microcode old/new status is visible on the INFO screens.
I can't recall where. May need to search this thread, or just play with it and post results.


----------



## msamblanet

Mike_WI said:


> ...and I think (???) that the 18 GHz microcode old/new status is visible on the INFO screens.
> I can't recall where. May need to search this thread, or just play with it and post results.


Info page 4: "18G:YY/Y,1" is what I had both before and after the update. ",0" was old...since I was not sure, in the end I just decided to do a menu-0850 to go back to old and menu-0851 to re-apply the new and make sure I had the new-new one.

Would be nice if the newer version came up as ",2" instead of ",1" so it was easier to be sure...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike_WI said:


> ...and I think (???) that the 18 GHz microcode old/new status is visible on the INFO screens.
> I can't recall where. May need to search this thread, or just play with it and post results.


Menu 0536 will show an info screen to tell whether you have old vs new 18GHz microcode. On the info screen, a 0 at very bottom right means the old code and a 1 means the new code.

Has anyone noticed an improvement in picture quality using the new microcode?

I'm afraid I tried the new microcode again today, but again still have issues and had to revert back to the old microcode. I have a 50' Monoprice fiber 18 GHz certified cable which works fine with my Sony VW5000ES projector - but not with the new updated 18 GHz microcode apparently. If you have it working with the Sony 5000 projector, what HDMI cable are you using and what's the length?


----------



## Mike_WI

*0536*



Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Menu 0536 will show an info screen to tell whether you have old vs new 18GHz microcode. On the info screen, a 0 at very bottom right means the old code and a 1 means the new code.
> 
> Has anyone noticed an improvement in picture quality using the new microcode?
> 
> I'm afraid I tried the new microcode again today, but again still have issues and had to revert back to the old microcode. I have a 50' Monoprice fiber 18 GHz certified cable which works fine with my Sony VW5000ES projector - but not with the new updated 18 GHz microcode apparently. If you have it working with the Sony 5000 projector, what HDMI cable are you using and what's the length?


Thanks.
Found this in my old notes:
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware


----------



## dinamigym

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Menu 0536 will show an info screen to tell whether you have old vs new 18GHz microcode. On the info screen, a 0 at very bottom right means the old code and a 1 means the new code.
> 
> Has anyone noticed an improvement in picture quality using the new microcode?
> 
> I'm afraid I tried the new microcode again today, but again still have issues and had to revert back to the old microcode. I have a 50' Monoprice fiber 18 GHz certified cable which works fine with my Sony VW5000ES projector - but not with the new updated 18 GHz microcode apparently. If you have it working with the Sony 5000 projector, what HDMI cable are you using and what's the length?


I had trouble and was on the old microcode until this latest version. The new microcode now appears to be working at least as well as the old one did for me. I use a ruipro 45ft fiber cable from the lumagen direct to my 5000.


----------



## cappy1

Perhaps I missed something, but I don’t recall seeing an explanation of any actual differences I may actually see or experience by switching to the new microcode. The new code still doesn’t seem to work in my setup. I could pull out all stops to make it work, but hesitant since I don’t know if it is worth the trouble. 

In any event, my first priority would be to fix the random problem of not synching when switching from one source to another. I am using Monoprice Certified Premium 18Gbps 6’ cables for sources and currently running a 20 meter Ruipro cable from the Pro to the Sony 885ES. (Previously I did a temporary hookup with a 15 meter Ruipro cable and had the same issue).


----------



## SJHT

cappy1 said:


> Perhaps I missed something, but I don’t recall seeing an explanation of any actual differences I may actually see or experience by switching to the new microcode. The new code still doesn’t seem to work in my setup. I could pull out all stops to make it work, but hesitant since I don’t know if it is worth the trouble.
> 
> In any event, my first priority would be to fix the random problem of not synching when switching from one source to another. I am using Monoprice Certified Premium 18Gbps 6’ cables for sources and currently running a 20 meter Ruipro cable from the Pro to the Sony 885ES. (Previously I did a temporary hookup with a 15 meter Ruipro cable and had the same issue).


I have 2 50’ monoprice fiber optic cables running to my 885ES from the Pro. Haven’t updated to this latest, but using the previous NEW version with no issues. They should have made this new version number 2 and allowed to go back to number 1. Guess I will update at some point, but now I’m hesitant. SJ


----------



## cappy1

SJHT said:


> I have 2 50’ monoprice fiber optic cables running to my 885ES from the Pro. Haven’t updated to this latest, but using the previous NEW version with no issues.SJ


Hmm! I have another manufacturers fiber optic cable coming today to evaluate. If it doesn't help I will try the Monoprice since it works for you.

Update: Mea culpa. I tried power cycling and the new microcode works! But, it does nothing to help random loss of synch when changing sources to the Pro.


----------



## Mike_WI

*"new" 18 GHz microcode*

In the past the "new" 18 GHz microcode didn't work for me.
Trying today with FW Beta 112818.
My gear link in in signature, but using Oppo/AT4K/etc --> Lumagen --> JVC RS520

Video processor: Lumagen RadiancePro 4444 (4-28-16) --> 12-24-16 converted to a 4446 -- 4446: 8 inputs, 4 processed outputs, 2U case

HDMI cables: 
Sources to Lumagen & Lumagen to Denon 5308CI AVR (audio): Black Squid - HDMI Cable (6 Feet) with Braided Cord (4K 2K 2160p 1080p 3D 18Gbps) - High Speed Category 2 - Ethernet & Audio Return Channel
Lumagen to Projector (in wall/ceiling): Monoprice Cabarnet Ultra CL2 Active High Speed HDMI Cable, 30 ft

Reminder:


> All units with 18 GHz output(s) ship with the original 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> On Info Pg 4 (press OK 4 times) at lower left is "18G:" in a different color. This is followed by either "??/?,n" for the 424x units or "????/??,n" for the 444X units.
> The ?'s are Y for 18 GHz card, N for 9 GHz card, or "-" if no card.
> For the 18 GHz microcode the "n" is 0 for original 18 GHz output microcode or 1 for the new 18 GHz output microcode.


*0850 - switch to original firmware*
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent

*0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware*
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent

*0853 - Display 18 GHz microcode status*
(after FW update this code didn't work) 


Will post pre-FW update and after pics (if possible)...

After FW update I hit "Menu 0851" and there was a quick message and a Lumagen reboot.
Look like the newest 18 GHz microcode is working for me now.
Sources tested and work: Apple TV 4K, Oppo 203 with 4K disc

So, looks like it works. That's great.
Wish I knew what the benefit of the new 18 GHz card microcode was.

Also, noting the dates of FWs:

112818
111718

The 112818 (newest) FW must have been alpha tested for a while and is over 2 months "old".
I would speculate that the next FW will be a "big one". I have no inside knowledge, just speculating.


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> Also, noting the dates of FWs:
> 
> 112818
> 111718
> 
> The 112818 (newest) FW must have been alpha tested for a while and is over 2 months "old".


I'm not completely sure these "dates" work like that. I was sent a test version (1127) a couple of weeks ago, fed back some issues with particular titles for Auto Aspect, and a week later received 1128 with them fixed. The conversations with Patrick seemed to imply the work was being done to fix them in that timeframe post me reporting them, not that it was an old version sat in a queue waiting that happened to fix the issues. Of course it's possible, but didn't seem likely.

----

For anyone who uses both the serial port and the USB port, I've noticed the status reports sometimes get disabled on the RS232 serial port after you've used the USB port for calibration duties in Lightspace. Worth watching out for. At the moment the only way I can fix the reports on the RS232 reliably is to power cycle it at the wall. Anyone seen anything like this? Anyone got an alternative to removing power (IR command that does a full power cycle, or a harder reboot?).


----------



## Mike_WI

bobof said:


> I'm not completely sure these "dates" work like that. I was sent a test version (1127) a couple of weeks ago, fed back some issues with particular titles for Auto Aspect, and a week later received 1128 with them fixed. The conversations with Patrick seemed to imply the work was being done to fix them in that timeframe post me reporting them, not that it was an old version sat in a queue waiting that happened to fix the issues. Of course it's possible, but didn't seem likely.
> 
> ----
> 
> For anyone who uses both the serial port and the USB port, I've noticed the status reports sometimes get disabled on the RS232 serial port after you've used the USB port for calibration duties in Lightspace. Worth watching out for. At the moment the only way I can fix the reports on the RS232 reliably is to power cycle it at the wall. Anyone seen anything like this? Anyone got an alternative to removing power (IR command that does a full power cycle, or a harder reboot?).


Pure speculation on my part. We will see.
Just glad to get the new FW updated and the new microcode tested and working.


----------



## FidelioX

Hi,
I read that someone use the new matrix conversion function and their happy with that. 
I actually create UHD rec. 2020 (gamma curve 2.4) luts with Lightspace and, once uploaded to Radiance, I activate hdr intensity mapping.

Please can you explain the best method to calibrate Lumagen using matrix conversion?

My projector is a Sony vpl-vw570es.

Thank you


----------



## loggeo

FidelioX said:


> Hi,
> I read that someone use the new matrix conversion function and their happy with that.
> I actually create UHD rec. 2020 (gamma curve 2.4) luts with Lightspace and, once uploaded to Radiance, I activate hdr intensity mapping.
> 
> Please can you explain the best method to calibrate Lumagen using matrix conversion?
> 
> My projector is a Sony vpl-vw570es.
> 
> Thank you


I do the same. As soon as I receive my new JVC, I will enable a P3 colorspace and experiment using lightspace to built a dci/d65/gamma 2.4 lut. Then I will enable intensity mapping.


----------



## mhafner

The new firmware seems to work with my JVC projector. The one before did not.


----------



## bobof

How are the auto aspect fans out there getting on? I've yet to see a single aspect mistake. Hope the new version has also fixed your issues. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bobof said:


> How are the auto aspect fans out there getting on? I've yet to see a single aspect mistake. Hope the new version has also fixed your issues.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


I have found that with UK satellite channels auto aspect must be looking at signalling from the source platform rather than black bars. ie black bar detection is secondary to data in the HDMI signal. This means that in cases where the satellite provider sends data saying it's 16:9 and the content is actually 2.3:1 the auto aspect actually stays in 16:9 and jumps back to 16:9 immediately if 2.3:1 is selected unless sticky overiide is applied. I'm going to ask Jim if they can give an option of black bar detection only. Auto detect does seem much much faster and more robust now though


----------



## bobof

Gordon Fraser said:


> I have found that with UK satellite channels auto aspect must be looking at signalling from the source platform rather than black bars. ie black bar detection is secondary to data in the HDMI signal. This means that in cases where the satellite provider sends data saying it's 16:9 and the content is actually 2.3:1 the auto aspect actually stays in 16:9 and jumps back to 16:9 immediately if 2.3:1 is selected unless sticky overiide is applied. I'm going to ask Jim if they can give an option of black bar detection only. Auto detect does seem much much faster and more robust now though


Interesting. I've always seen that option and wondered what devices actually put it out, and thought it would be bound to trip me up not being able to select just image based auto aspect (having to HDMI + Image), but alas I'd not yet found a device that caused me that issue. Congratulations!  lol Is that $ky UK broadcasting?

I think if there are devices where the data is perhaps going to be unhelpful it would definitely be good for it to either be possible to do image only, or to change the priority so that image overrides data.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bobof said:


> Interesting. I've always seen that option and wondered what devices actually put it out, and thought it would be bound to trip me up not being able to select just image based auto aspect (having to HDMI + Image), but alas I'd not yet found a device that caused me that issue. Congratulations!  lol Is that $ky UK broadcasting?
> 
> I think if there are devices where the data is perhaps going to be unhelpful it would definitely be good for it to either be possible to do image only, or to change the priority so that image overrides data.


Yes i was on site with a dealer yesterday and we were testing SkyQ SkyCinema channel and we saw this condition with this piece of content.


----------



## thrang

After further testing, the initial brief success with the newnew microcode and the Sony 5000 vanished...caused some severe boot up issues thereafter so back to original microcode.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thrang said:


> After further testing, the initial brief success with the newnew microcode and the Sony 5000 vanished...caused some severe boot up issues thereafter so back to original microcode.


Yup! My experience as well. DARN!


----------



## Mike_WI

*18 GHz microcode old/new status*



mhafner said:


> The new firmware seems to work with my JVC projector. The one before did not.





thrang said:


> After further testing, the initial brief success with the newnew microcode and the Sony 5000 vanished...caused some severe boot up issues thereafter so back to original microcode.





Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Yup! My experience as well. DARN!


Hmm.
I will see if I have time to re-test tonight.

EDIT:
I retried tonight and everything (new 18 GHz card microcode) is working on JVC RS520


----------



## dlinsley

I'm not yet sure if it's the new microcode (status still shows ",1" as before the upgrade), but I lose picture from my DirecTV C61k quite regularly with the new firmware. Switching inputs and back again fixes it, and I need to try switching to the old microcode.


----------



## dlinsley

dlinsley said:


> Has anyone used the new matrix conversion to convert Rec709 to BT2020?
> 
> I have the JVC RS3000 and these new models still don't autoswitch between color profiles from what I can see (it does support using the HDR flag to switch modes though). My DirecTV 4k receiver outputs all SDR in 2020, and so far I'm needing to manually switch color profile when switching between TV and BD or Roku. I intend to try the matrix conversion to avoid this, and was just wondering if anyone had been successful and had any gotchas / useful tips.
> 
> Ideally I'd like to not need the Vertex to RS232 control the JVC this round - I did this with the RS600 to switch between my profiles for SDR and HDR since the HDR flag forced Gamma D there - but for my family I need this all automated and hope the matrix conversion gets me there without the extra box.





Unherdable said:


> Yes, I use it to enable my Rec709 Digital Projection Insight Laser 4K to view Rec2020 material. The matrix conversion is [for me] the single best feature ever put out in a firmware update! So much so that I'm not going to bother updating my projector that is a few years old at this point until there is a decently bright projector available around the same price point. I also greatly prefer it over the LUT implementation I used before to fix the colors with Rec2020 sources. I have a Kaleidescape system, and many of my titles only had HDR versions, so this was a fabulous feature for me. I'm supremely content with how I have dialed in the tonemapping too, so I'm a happy camper.
> 
> And before anyone says it's not really HDR, rec2020 blah blah blah. Yes, I know, I do have several very nice Dolby Vision panels in my other AV installations too, but this conversion feature will definitely extend the useful life of my old Insight 4K and keep me happy.


Unless I'm missing something, it seems the matrix conversion cannot do what I want. Since the DirecTV box always output 2020 (SDR or HDR), CMS1 is always selected. For SDR2020 I'd like to use CMS0 and matrix it down to 709 output.


----------



## SJHT

Just to be clear, is there anyway to get back to the previous NEW code if we install this latest one without loading a previous firmware (which would also remove other new non-HDMI related updates)? The previous NEW code works great for my setup. Thanks. SJ


----------



## mhafner

Tonight the new firmware did not work so I went back to the old one. :frown:


----------



## Roland Janus

just my two cents:
I like what they did to the auto-aspect feature.
So far stable, faster and not yet seen the flickering screen yet.
Good work !


----------



## patrick harkin

SJHT said:


> Just to be clear, is there anyway to get back to the previous NEW code if we install this latest one without loading a previous firmware (which would also remove other new non-HDMI related updates)? The previous NEW code works great for my setup. Thanks. SJ


There is another version of 112818 available that uses the previous "new" 18Ghz output firmware. You can download it at www.lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro112818_tx12.zip . When rebooting it takes an extra minute to start as the Pro internally updates the 18Ghz output card fw. Please let us know how it goes.


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> just my two cents:
> I like what they did to the auto-aspect feature.
> So far stable, faster and not yet seen the flickering screen yet.
> Good work !


Yup, it looks really good. I've still not seen any mis-steps.

---

For anyone wondering about my serial port issue with the status updates (might be useful for anyone else automating aspect control), with some pointers from Patrick I got to the bottom of how the unit behaves currently. At first power on reports are sent to the RS232 port. If you start to interact with the USB port (like Lightspace does in my system when I'm calibrating) they switch over to that port; they basically appear on the last serial port that had been sent characters. To get them back on the RS232 port you need to send some characters to that port once you are done with the USB. It has to be something other than the no-op underscore character, so for now I've just been resending the serial echo on (ZE1) command which doesn't have any effect on the video output. The active serial port persists even when you take the unit in and out of standby at the moment, instead of being reset.


----------



## darksets

Does anyone here use the Radiance Pro together with a Bryston SP3?


----------



## Eventidal

It seems Auto Aspect Detection is not working with 3D sources. Also I cannot apply this feature and save to all settings despite having the option do so...


----------



## BCWookie

*lumagen software update*

i just installed my new radaince pro. Imam try to update the software, but when i follow the directions for update my computer is not showing thde com port in device manager. it only show an unkown USB serial device and seems to need a driver. anyone have a solution?


----------



## dlinsley

BCWookie said:


> i just installed my new radaince pro. Imam try to update the software, but when i follow the directions for update my computer is not showing thde com port in device manager. it only show an unkown USB serial device and seems to need a driver. anyone have a solution?


Usually it's automatic as the FTDI driver is on Windows Update. If you right click on the unknown device, select Update Driver and then Search Automatically, does it find it?


----------



## BCWookie

dlinsley said:


> Usually it's automatic as the FTDI driver is on Windows Update. If you right click on the unknown device, select Update Driver and then Search Automatically, does it find it?


No it says it is unable to update


----------



## BCWookie

BCWookie said:


> No it says it is unable to update


I download FIDI driver and it is working


----------



## uderman

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> My understanding is that the Radiance Pro will NEVER be able to give us the benefit of Dolby Vision because they are unable to obtain licensing of the technology from Dolby. I assume this is because the licensing is so expensive and a small company like Lumagen simply can't afford it? Has anyone heard of this changing?
> 
> I appreciate that all 4k discs and streaming video which are encoded for Dolby Vision are also encoded for HDR10. So at least we get that benefit in the Radiance Pro's tone mapping for our projectors.
> 
> I understand anytime now - hopefully - there will be a firmware upgrade for the Radiance Pro where it does dynamic frame by frame tone mapping. YES! Will this make the lack of Dolby Vision for the Radiance Pro no longer be an issue? If not, what if the Radiance Pro firmware could be upgraded to allow a player or streamer which can tonemap Dolby Vision HDR, such as the Oppo 203/205 or other players which do this, so you could set the player to perhaps tonemap some and then the Radiance Pro could interpret this and improve upon this to give us the best tone mapping for Dolby Vision. Now this idea of mine is strictly off the wall and I have no idea if this could be done but I thought I'd raise the point.



A couple of years ago Jim said they had a meeting with Dolby for licensing the Pro for DV however Dolby canceled it the last minute stating they had no plans to license video processors. I don’t know if Lumagen made any attempts after but hdfury products (they are now sort of video processors) and a number of AVRs support DV. So at least as a pass through, a DV support on none display devices should be possible. 

Besides dynamic metadata, DV is also 12 bit vs 10 bit on hdr10. Most displays are 8 bit or faux 10 bit so I am not sure if 12 bit video makes any change.


----------



## SJHT

patrick harkin said:


> There is another version of 112818 available that uses the previous "new" 18Ghz output firmware. You can download it at www.lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro112818_tx12.zip . When rebooting it takes an extra minute to start as the Pro internally updates the 18Ghz output card fw. Please let us know how it goes.


Thanks for providing this in case needed. I did update today to the latest firmware (with the NEWEST 18 Ghz output firmware) and all still seems to be solid for my setup (Sony 885 projector). I will see how things go over the next week, but looks good so far... SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Thanks for providing this in case needed. I did update today to the latest firmware (with the NEWEST 18 Ghz output firmware) and all still seems to be solid for my setup (Sony 885 projector). I will see how things go over the next week, but looks good so far... SJ


I'm using the latest with the new microcode on a 885ES in my room with no issue.


----------



## A7mad78

simple Q?

If my FW is back about month or so and then lumagen add 2 or 3 update after my last FW do i need to do them one by one or jump to the recent one ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

A7mad78 said:


> simple Q?
> 
> If my FW is back about month or so and then lumagen add 2 or 3 update after my last FW do i need to do them one by one or jump to the recent one ?


They're always stand alone updates so do not depend on previous versions (so you can just grab the latest), but depending on what version from and to you are going you might find the update takes more or less time (depending on which areas of the Lumagen are being updated). The listed typical update time at the Lumagen only applies if you are going from the previous version.


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> They're always stand alone updates so do not depend on previous versions (so you can just grab the latest), but depending on what version from and to you are going you might find the update takes more or less time (depending on which areas of the Lumagen are being updated). The listed typical update time at the Lumagen only applies if you are going from the previous version.




How can i know which update ? 

I am little bit a new 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

A7mad78 said:


> How can i know which update ?
> 
> I am little bit a new


I don't understand your question.
The newest public update is always the top item at the following page:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

There have been very few cases of an update causing significant problems, usually the latest update is the one to go for unless advised otherwise. The note at the top of that page explains probably all you need to know.


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> I don't understand your question.
> 
> The newest public update is always the top item at the following page:
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> There have been very few cases of an update causing significant problems, usually the latest update is the one to go for unless advised otherwise. The note at the top of that page explains probably all you need to know.




Sorry I mean which update I have in my unit 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

A7mad78 said:


> Sorry I mean which update I have in my unit


It is explained on that page. 
"You can check your firmware revision by pressing "OK" on the Radiance Pro remote when the menu is not up, or navigate to the Info Menu."


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> It is explained on that page.
> 
> "You can check your firmware revision by pressing "OK" on the Radiance Pro remote when the menu is not up, or navigate to the Info Menu."




Thx 


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## A7mad78

A7mad78 said:


> Thx
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Good I am not that much late my FW 111618 


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----------



## Craig Peer

I updated the firmware last night, and tried the new microcode. So far it seems to work better with my RS4500 than the 0850 original HDMI firmware did ( the previous 0851 HDMI microcode was too glitchy with my setup ). Seems more stable - and the signal locks on faster.


----------



## bobof

I noticed something mildly entertaining the other evening. I have a JVC eShift projector and had struggled to use the genlock mode with previous output microcodes, everything would just seem to be too fragile. It seems to work fine now with the new microcode, but the funny thing is that if I listen to the eShift characteristic sound I can hear it cycling through a change of pitch on a pretty repeatable cycle (if I get a moment I'll try and record it one day). I'm guessing the eShift mechanism movement is connected fairly directly to the HDMI clock, and what I'm perhaps hearing is the PLL clock adjustment being used to keep the HDMI output of the Lumagen in step with the input HDMI clock.

It's very slight and I don't care, as it is working, but it explains something else which has been reported elsewhere about different sources making eShift more or less audible. Anyways, geek out.


----------



## A7mad78

Craig Peer said:


> I updated the firmware last night, and tried the new microcode. So far it seems to work better with my RS4500 than the 0850 original HDMI firmware did ( the previous 0851 HDMI microcode was too glitchy with my setup ). Seems more stable - and the signal locks on faster.




Me too I just update and use the 0851 microcode and it works fine when i try it with my source and I will have more look later to confirm with my trinnov/balder cinemascope 


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----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> I wanted to post an update that I solved my problem and was able to remove the HDMI voltage inserter by switching the Ruipro cable to a different input on the AVR, a Denon AVR-X3500H.
> 
> As noted above, Denon has recommended in the past with other AVR’s to use the HDMI input that is physically closest to the output to mitigate issues with 4K HDR source devices, so I was using input #7 (CD) since I purchased the AVR, as it was the closest input to the outputs. I was using it with the same Ruipro 50-foot cable and the Lumagen Radiance 2041 without the voltage inserter without issues.
> 
> I noted above that I would try the other inputs on the AVR to make the test thorough, and I finally got around to that task, and here are the detailed results. First I removed the voltage inserter from the source end (output of the Lumagen Radiance Pro) of the cable.
> 
> HDMI Input #1 (CBL/SAT)
> This is farthest input (in physical distance) from the HDMI outputs on the receiver. This input resulted in a blanking video signal about every minute, and intermittent audio interruptions that occurred around every 10 seconds or so. The audio interruptions were very brief (milliseconds?), but were frequent enough to be annoying.
> 
> HDMI Input #2 (DVD)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> HDMI Input #3 (Blu-ray)
> This input resulted in no video or audio blanking.
> 
> HDMI Input #4 (GAME)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> HDMI Input #5 (MEDIA PLAYER)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> HDMI Input #6 (AUX2)
> This input resulted in no picture at all; it never synched. I verified the input was set to use HDMI 6.
> 
> HDMI Input #7 (CD)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> I don't really see any pattern to the above results, but I am glad I was able to remove the voltage inserter.
> 
> Mark


While the major intermittent audio/video blanking noted above has been solved, I have now turned my attention to a smaller, but still annoying problem with a single source.

I have a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR that has fairly frequent (~1-2 minute intervals) but intermittent audio blanking that lasts about 2-3 seconds, as well as occasional video blanking that lasts around 5-7 seconds. This is the only source that exhibits these symptoms, and these symptoms were not present when the same equipment was used with the Radiance 2441. I am assuming there is some minor syncing issue between the Pro and the Denon AVR-X3500H.

While we could point to the 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR as the culprit and call it a day, however, *I did not experience these issues with the Radiance 2441 in the system*. Therefore, I am thinking that Lumagen can fix this, as they have done for other offending source devices. Before I send an email to report this, I thought I would ask here:

Is anyone else using a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR with the Radiance Pro? 

The symptoms occur with live TV or recorded content. I haven’t made any changes to the TiVo or AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue, but I don't know what changes I could make anyway.

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## bearcat2002

giomania said:


> While the major intermittent audio/video blanking noted above has been solved, I have now turned my attention to a smaller, but still annoying problem with a single source.
> 
> I have a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR that has fairly frequent (~1-2 minute intervals) but intermittent audio blanking that lasts about 2-3 seconds, as well as occasional video blanking that lasts around 5-7 seconds. This is the only source that exhibits these symptoms, and these symptoms were not present when the same equipment was used with the Radiance 2441. I am assuming there is some minor syncing issue between the Pro and the Denon AVR-X3500H.
> 
> While we could point to the 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR as the culprit and call it a day, however, *I did not experience these issues with the Radiance 2441 in the system*. Therefore, I am thinking that Lumagen can fix this, as they have done for other offending source devices. Before I send an email to report this, I thought I would ask here:
> 
> Is anyone else using a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR with the Radiance Pro?
> 
> The symptoms occur with live TV or recorded content. I haven’t made any changes to the TiVo or AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue, but I don't know what changes I could make anyway.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


I am using a TiVo mini with a Radiance Pro 4446 without any issues.


----------



## giomania

bearcat2002 said:


> I am using a TiVo mini with a Radiance Pro 4446 without any issues.


Thanks.

Here are some questions:

What DVR model? 
What TiVo software? (I am on the old one, not the new version) 
Video settings: Are you using Source Direct, wherein the resolution options are set to output 480i, 720p, and 1080i? 
Audio settings; bitstream? 

Those some things I thought of to ask off the top of my head.

Mark


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> While the major intermittent audio/video blanking noted above has been solved, I have now turned my attention to a smaller, but still annoying problem with a single source.
> 
> I have a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR that has fairly frequent (~1-2 minute intervals) but intermittent audio blanking that lasts about 2-3 seconds, as well as occasional video blanking that lasts around 5-7 seconds. This is the only source that exhibits these symptoms, and these symptoms were not present when the same equipment was used with the Radiance 2441. I am assuming there is some minor syncing issue between the Pro and the Denon AVR-X3500H.
> 
> While we could point to the 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR as the culprit and call it a day, however, *I did not experience these issues with the Radiance 2441 in the system*. Therefore, I am thinking that Lumagen can fix this, as they have done for other offending source devices. Before I send an email to report this, I thought I would ask here:
> 
> Is anyone else using a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR with the Radiance Pro?
> 
> The symptoms occur with live TV or recorded content. I haven’t made any changes to the TiVo or AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue, but I don't know what changes I could make anyway.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


When I was looking into various bits of HDBaseT kit something that came up fairly frequently in application notes is issues with cable and satellite boxes, due to "clock stretching" causing HDCP problems. 
One such application note is as follows:
https://www.snapav.com/wcsstore/Ext...SupportDocuments/HDBaseT Clock Stretching.pdf

I don't know if this is your issue, but it could be that their suggested fix (an additional splitter at the output of the cable box) might at least change the behaviour.

Worth a think / look.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> When I was looking into various bits of HDBaseT kit something that came up fairly frequently in application notes is issues with cable and satellite boxes, due to "clock stretching" causing HDCP problems.
> One such application note is as follows:
> https://www.snapav.com/wcsstore/Ext...SupportDocuments/HDBaseT Clock Stretching.pdf
> 
> I don't know if this is your issue, but it could be that their suggested fix (an additional splitter at the output of the cable box) might at least change the behaviour.
> 
> Worth a think / look.


Thanks. The Roamio Pro is HDMI 1.3 (not 1.3b), and I have an extra splitter I can try out.


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Thanks. The Roamio Pro is HDMI 1.3 (not 1.3b), and I have an extra splitter I can try out.


No worries. I don't know if there are some special requirements for the particular splitter, but anything has to be worth a try. Good luck! 
I think Atlona actually have a device targeted at just this:
https://support.atlona.com/hc/en-us...ific-Atlanta-cable-box-and-HDBaseT-Extenders-


----------



## bearcat2017

giomania said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some questions:
> 
> 
> 
> What DVR model?
> 
> What TiVo software? (I am on the old one, not the new version)
> 
> Video settings: Are you using Source Direct, wherein the resolution options are set to output 480i, 720p, and 1080i?
> 
> Audio settings; bitstream?
> 
> 
> 
> Those some things I thought of to ask off the top of my head.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark













Using it with a TiVo Bolt. And using Gen 3 GUI. I can’t stand Gen4 (Hydra)



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----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> No worries. I don't know if there are some special requirements for the particular splitter, but anything has to be worth a try. Good luck!
> I think Atlona actually have a device targeted at just this:
> https://support.atlona.com/hc/en-us...ific-Atlanta-cable-box-and-HDBaseT-Extenders-


The splitter did not eliminate the problem; at first I thought it improved it a little bit, but in the end I am not really sure. Also, I did a little more research on the HDMI version of the Roamio Pro, and it is not published, but I would think it has to be at least 1.4, because that was released in 2009, and the Roamio came out in 2011.

Mark


----------



## sceptre-lcd

Kris Deering said:


> I'm using the latest with the new microcode on a 885ES in my room with no issue.


On my 760 the latest 18g firmware 0851 does not work 
If I go back to 0850 then things are back to normal
this is for the 112818 release


----------



## Kris Deering

sceptre-lcd said:


> On my 760 the latest 18g firmware 0851 does not work
> If I go back to 0850 then things are back to normal
> this is for the 112818 release


Did you unplug the HDMI connection from the Sony and Lumagen before doing the update? I had done one before with the HDMI plugged in and it didn't work. When I did the latest firmware I was sure to unplug before hand and had no issues at all.


----------



## sceptre-lcd

Kris Deering said:


> sceptre-lcd said:
> 
> 
> 
> On my 760 the latest 18g firmware 0851 does not work
> If I go back to 0850 then things are back to normal
> this is for the 112818 release
> 
> 
> 
> Did you unplug the HDMI connection from the Sony and Lumagen before doing the update? I had done one before with the HDMI plugged in and it didn't work. When I did the latest firmware I was sure to unplug before hand and had no issues at all.
Click to expand...

I will try unplugging 
Practically though is 0851 more stable or has less sync time with the Sony and Lumagen than 0850 ? What is better about 0851 vs. 0850 ?


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Did you unplug the HDMI connection from the Sony and Lumagen before doing the update? I had done one before with the HDMI plugged in and it didn't work. When I did the latest firmware I was sure to unplug before hand and had no issues at all.


Are you talking about the firmware not updating correctly or that there were not HDMI issues after the firmware updated. I left mine plugged in and don’t have any issues with the latest firmware and my 885. I seem to recall Jim mentioning unplugging the HDMI connection when doing an update, but I’ve never done that.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you unplug the HDMI connection from the Sony and Lumagen before doing the update? I had done one before with the HDMI plugged in and it didn't work. When I did the latest firmware I was sure to unplug before hand and had no issues at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about the firmware not updating correctly or that there were not HDMI issues after the firmware updated. I left mine plugged in and don’t have any issues with the latest firmware and my 885. I seem to recall Jim mentioning unplugging the HDMI connection when doing an update, but I’ve never done that.
Click to expand...

This is only for microcode changes, not standard firmware updates. Microcode changes can cause issues with the HDMI connection so you should unplug before changing.


----------



## A7mad78

Kris Deering said:


> This is only for microcode changes, not standard firmware updates. Microcode changes can cause issues with the HDMI connection so you should unplug before changing.




I do the change but i kept the projector off but never unplug the cable and after update to the 0851 microcode every thing works fine and much much batter until now with the new microcode before i have image droop out and now watch twice and never droop 

Is it fine or I need to do it again good to know this info coz I am new to lumagen world 


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----------



## wjchan

My config: Panny UB900 -> Lumagen -> VPL-VW5000

After firmware update the Panny didn't see the Lumagen as HDR-capable. I had to do Alt-Prev to reset the HDMI to get it to work.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> This is only for microcode changes, not standard firmware updates. Microcode changes can cause issues with the HDMI connection so you should unplug before changing.


I tried the new microcode again following Kris' advise. No picture at all. Back to old microcode and fine. Could be do to the date of the HDMI board in my VPL5000ES which I got late September 2017?


----------



## Kris Deering

Hard to say on that one Steve. Not sure if Sony did any HDMI board changes on the 5000ES.


----------



## A7mad78

after a week from updating to 0851 with batter performance today got a problem with hdcp2.2 and and always got this message 











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----------



## darksets

Does anyone here have a Verizon Fios cable box? The auto aspect detection is not working for me and I was wondering if someone could confirm.


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> Does anyone here have a Verizon Fios cable box? The auto aspect detection is not working for me and I was wondering if someone could confirm.


Gordon reported an issue with a UK satellite box. It seems that some boxes output a signal indicating 16:9, and it looks like this overrides AA. I wonder if this is the issue you have.


----------



## darksets

bobof said:


> Gordon reported an issue with a UK satellite box. It seems that some boxes output a signal indicating 16:9, and it looks like this overrides AA. I wonder if this is the issue you have.


That could be it, the horizontal bars look very black, same as the vertical ones. But I don't know for sure, that's why I was trying to see if there's someone with the same box that could confirm the problem.


----------



## sceptre-lcd

sceptre-lcd said:


> I will try unplugging
> Practically though is 0851 more stable or has less sync time with the Sony and Lumagen than 0850 ? What is better about 0851 vs. 0850 ?


I unplugged the HDMI cable into the projector before hitting Menu 0851 and that seems to have done the trick - the 760 now syncs up to the new 0851 microcode in 112818
It seems to sync up a bit faster than the old microcode when you change inputs or when you switch from SDR to HDR or back on one input


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I tried the new microcode again following Kris' advise. No picture at all. Back to old microcode and fine. Could be do to the date of the HDMI board in my VPL5000ES which I got late September 2017?





Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I am crossing my fingers! HA! With the Monoprice 18 Gbs HDMI certified 50' cable, I have now tried using my Sony 5000ES projector HDMI input 2. I was using HDMI input 1. Right now with new microcode everything is working and switching fine. Time will tell though. Here's hoping. Jim Peterson told me some time ago that some 5000ES owners were reporting the HDMI 2 input seemed to work better and more stable with the Radiance Pro.


I am now not crossing my fingers. I think I've figured it out! And its not HDMI 1 vs HDMI 2 input to my projector. The issue has been when I've done Menu 0851 to go to the new 18 GHz microcode, and then reconnected HDMI from Radiance Pro to the projector, that I was running the HDMI input 1 DirecTV on either 1080p (for native 1080i) or 720p (for native 720p) (I feel at least with the old 18 GHz microcode that my picture looks its best for HD sources output from Radiance at 1080p/720p and not 4k as this gives me what I feel is the best picture for HD sources and allows my Sony 5000ES projector to use its variable setting Reality Creation, the latter which with the current firmware only works for HD and not 4k) and not using the DirecTV 4k channel. (Note I output from Radiance Pro 3840, not 4096, as this gives me a sharper picture in my setup). I had my sources set at DirecTV for HD, Tivo HD at HD, Oppo 205 at 4k 24p playing, and all of these sources switched fine. However, I had my Apple TV 4k playing at 4k 59.94 Hz, and all sources but the Apple TV would come up on screen. Then I switched to DirecTV channel 104 with 4k 59.94 Hz playing and again no picture. But I could switch to any HD or 4k 24k source and get a picture.

My brain whirled and I tried something unprecedently new. I turned to DirecTV channel 104 with 4k 59.94 Hz playing. I disconnected HDMI cable to projector from back of Radiance Pro. I turned off my Sony 5000ES projector at my Furman Elite 20PFi where its connected. Then I hit Menu 0851 to upgrade the 18 GHz firmware in the Radiance Pro. After it booted back up, I reconnected the HDMI cable to the Radiance Pro and turned on the projector, and PRESTO everything is working fine. I have two 18 GHz outputs from the Radiance Pro. I tried them both, switching between all sources, and everything seems perfect and works fine.

Now I'm no engineer or technocrat but my theory is the damn projector HDMI when it gets an incoming signal programs itself in a certain way,
and when I went thru the above procedure the projector HDMI input got "reprogrammed" and accepted the incoming video signal whether HD or up to 4k 59.94 Hz.

Though I guess I should keep crossing my fingers in the next few hours and days and hope this continues working smoothly. But I did just put both Radiance Pro outputs through their paces and seems to work glitch free and fine!


----------



## blazar

today in 2019, what is the main reason to be purchasing a Lumagen? Most of my content is coming off of apple tv and some from Oppo 4k HDR.

What kind of time frame to obsolescence do you guys peg the device?

Is there a particular type of projector or situation where a lumagen would be expected to be useful?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

blazar said:


> today in 2019, what is the main reason to be purchasing a Lumagen? Most of my content is coming off of apple tv and some from Oppo 4k HDR.
> 
> What kind of time frame to obsolescence do you guys peg the device?
> 
> Is there a particular type of projector or situation where a lumagen would be expected to be useful?



As there are folk currently still using and purchasing s/h original Radiance units which wil now be around 10 + years old i'd expect there will be plenty of life left in the Pro. Lumagen also tend to keep on upgrading the performance and features until they run out of FPGA gates in the devices. So they just keep getting better.


On the subject of what projectors would benefit. All projectors i've come across will benefit. The internal calibration controls of the Radiance Pro units combined with a good calibration specialist, or a keen enthusiast, will give you a much more accurate image than not having one. In many systems the programmable input and output capabilities of Radiance Pro allow many marginal HDMI systems to perform much more robustly. The Auto aspect feature, an example of constant improvements, is one of those things that i regularly have clients "wow"ing over and expressing that they think that alone is a feature they would have paid the, not insubstantial, amount of money for. Then there is of course the fact that if you watch lower res content or use an anamorphic lens the scaling capabilities of Lumagen are without equal. Finally, the Lumagen Intentisty Mapping (tone mapping) feature is already better than in any domestic projection display and imminently it will get even better still.



I find myself installing Radiance Pro units on projectors ranging from sub $5000 to $50,000 + and all of them look and perform better afterwards


----------



## Mike_WI

*What has the Lumagen done for you lately, in 2019...*



blazar said:


> today in 2019, what is the main reason to be purchasing a Lumagen? Most of my content is coming off of apple tv and some from Oppo 4k HDR.
> 
> What kind of time frame to obsolescence do you guys peg the device?
> 
> Is there a particular type of projector or situation where a lumagen would be expected to be useful?


See this post earlier in thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-127.html#post57550190



> What a great weekend. It isn't often that I get to witness 2 excellent tone mapping devices, especially so close-in-time together, but that is exactly what @SOWK was able to arrange for me this weekend! Thanks Tony!!
> 
> On Friday, I had the opportunity to meet @SirMaster , and Tony and I got the unique opportunity to see what an amazing job the MadVr handled tone mapping with the NX9.
> I really felt it was truly amazing on my 13 foot wide screen!! It was great to meet you Nick, and thank you for the suggestions for the gaming PC build as well. A very sincere welcome to the WI group
> 
> Today, Mike was nice enough to allow me to see his JVC 520 in action with an ISCO III anamorphic lens, combined with a Lumagen.
> While it was not apples to apples due to smaller screen size and added brightness associated with the lens, *I was extremely impressed with how the Lumagen handled the tone mapping as compared to the JVC 520 itself and the Oppo.*


and my comments:



> I had been waiting for a professional calibration because of my busyness and new FW updates always coming.
> @SOWK did a great job optimizing everything by eye alone -- no instruments. He used a hard drive of test patterns.
> The difference was very obvious.
> 
> He went through the exercise of checking the various locations for tone mapping - Oppo 203, JVC RS520, or Lumagen Radiance Pro. The Lumagen was really superior.
> 
> I still hope to get a professional calibration eventually and compare his "eyeballing" vs an instrumented calibration.
> Also waiting for the dynamic tone mapping firmware updates.


So, despite improvements in some (Oppo 203) sources and projectors, the Lumagen Radiance Pro is still better -- even by just eyeballing.


----------



## blazar

Gordon Fraser said:


> As there are folk currently still using and purchasing s/h original Radiance units which wil now be around 10 + years old i'd expect there will be plenty of life left in the Pro. Lumagen also tend to keep on upgrading the performance and features until they run out of FPGA gates in the devices. So they just keep getting better.
> 
> 
> On the subject of what projectors would benefit. All projectors i've come across will benefit. The internal calibration controls of the Radiance Pro units combined with a good calibration specialist, or a keen enthusiast, will give you a much more accurate image than not having one. In many systems the programmable input and output capabilities of Radiance Pro allow many marginal HDMI systems to perform much more robustly. The Auto aspect feature, an example of constant improvements, is one of those things that i regularly have clients "wow"ing over and expressing that they think that alone is a feature they would have paid the, not insubstantial, amount of money for. Then there is of course the fact that if you watch lower res content or use an anamorphic lens the scaling capabilities of Lumagen are without equal. Finally, the Lumagen Intentisty Mapping (tone mapping) feature is already better than in any domestic projection display and imminently it will get even better still.
> 
> 
> 
> I find myself installing Radiance Pro units on projectors ranging from sub $5000 to $50,000 + and all of them look and perform better afterwards



I currently own a optoma uhd60. Would you say a better "upgrade" would be a) add a lumagen b) get a better projector?

In other words, is a lumagen pro an item you would add only if you had surplus money and had the best projector on the market?

I'm not really sure how long HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 will be the standard vs an increase for 8k video or whatever.


----------



## LJG

blazar said:


> today in 2019, what is the main reason to be purchasing a Lumagen? Most of my content is coming off of apple tv and some from Oppo 4k HDR.
> 
> What kind of time frame to obsolescence do you guys peg the device?
> 
> Is there a particular type of projector or situation where a lumagen would be expected to be useful?


I find the Lumagen Pro indispensable in my setup (Sony VPL-VW5000es). Here are the reasons.

1)For Switching DTV source 720P and 1080I the Lumagen continuously outputs 4K 60, thus eliminating the synch up times for the Projector. this is crucial for switching sporting events.
2)The Pro 4449, also acts as a very basic HDMI matrix switcher which allows an additional 6 matrixed outputs of unprocessed outputs.
3)Scaling sources to 4K.
4)HDR tone mapping, which is the current most important feature for my setup.


----------



## A7mad78

blazar said:


> I currently own a optoma uhd60. Would you say a better "upgrade" would be a) add a lumagen b) get a better projector?
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, is a lumagen pro an item you would add only if you had surplus money and had the best projector on the market?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not really sure how long HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 will be the standard vs an increase for 8k video or whatever.




I had Balder cinemascope and just add lumagen never see my projector bright as it’s now after add lumagen and never just think to go without lumagen 

The result was outstanding and the pic never look like this before 

So happy 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blazar

A7mad78 said:


> I had Balder cinemascope and just add lumagen never see my projector bright as it’s now after add lumagen and never just think to go without lumagen
> 
> The result was outstanding and the pic never look like this before
> 
> So happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


wow, it seems unusual to me that projector manufacturers wouldn't incorporate similar strategies into the projector itself. My projector is kinda bargain level price, so it does make me a bit nervous buying a high end video processor. That's pretty much why I've been asking about this to begin with.

Also, will the lumagen allow separation of audio signal (for my hdmi 1.2 receiver) while passing the video signal to the 4k projector?

Is it pretty snappy about its auto-adjustments and audio so that the receiver doesn't wind up with sync errors and whatnot?


----------



## A7mad78

blazar said:


> wow, it seems unusual to me that projector manufacturers wouldn't incorporate similar strategies into the projector itself. My projector is kinda bargain level price, so it does make me a bit nervous buying a high end video processor. That's pretty much why I've been asking about this to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, will the lumagen allow separation of audio signal (for my hdmi 1.2 receiver) while passing the video signal to the 4k projector?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it pretty snappy about its auto-adjustments and audio so that the receiver doesn't wind up with sync errors and whatnot?




The audio in direct to trinnov and the video from the source to the projector I am not much technical so i will let the expert here explain but believe me I am so happy with pic result 

It’s true but some manufacture provide external scaler like runco before and i think wolf dose it’s so so great product and if u got the lut3D calibration and with the projector as well u will get a very nice image like u got a new projector but it must install with an expert 


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## blazar

A7mad78 said:


> The audio in direct to trinnov and the video from the source to the projector I am not much technical so i will let the expert here explain but believe me I am so happy with pic result
> 
> It’s true but some manufacture provide external scaler like runco before and i think wolf dose it’s so so great product and if u got the lut3D calibration and with the projector as well u will get a very nice image like u got a new projector but it must install with an expert
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ok so specialty measurement equipment is required to do a calibration then? I would have to fly someone in to do it then which ups the cost more (unless it is included in the retail price or something).


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## bearcat2017

I love my radiance pro but checked and I don’t have auto aspect enabled. Is this something I should change?


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## Steve Bruzonsky

blazar said:


> wow, it seems unusual to me that projector manufacturers wouldn't incorporate similar strategies into the projector itself. My projector is kinda bargain level price, so it does make me a bit nervous buying a high end video processor. That's pretty much why I've been asking about this to begin with.
> 
> Also, will the lumagen allow separation of audio signal (for my hdmi 1.2 receiver) while passing the video signal to the 4k projector?
> 
> Is it pretty snappy about its auto-adjustments and audio so that the receiver doesn't wind up with sync errors and whatnot?


I can't see spending the bucks on a Radiance Pro for a budget level projector. Doesn't make sense. For your Oppo 4k player use its tone mapping feature and experiment - no, not as good as Radiance Pro, but your video picture quality on a budget projector is limited, too, so you won't see the improvement us Sony laser projector owners see.

As the Oppo has a HDMI input, try the Apple TV 4k into the Oppo and using the Oppo's tone mapping. That may work good enough for you.
(I haven't tried my Oppo HDMI input to see if and how this will work).

Yes the $$ is better spent I think on a better projector than the Optoma. Not putting it down at all - just where does it make sense to spend your [email protected]@@ Radiance Pro will cost at least $7 grand or so, and pro calibration using it another 2 grand plus travel (Ken Whitcomb who I used)


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## A7mad78

blazar said:


> ok so specialty measurement equipment is required to do a calibration then? I would have to fly someone in to do it then which ups the cost more (unless it is included in the retail price or something).




Yes it need to be setup properly base in ur setup and u will get a great result for sure especially for HDR with the tone mapping 


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## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I am now not crossing my fingers. I think I've figured it out! And its not HDMI 1 vs HDMI 2 input to my projector. The issue has been when I've done Menu 0851 to go to the new 18 GHz microcode, and then reconnected HDMI from Radiance Pro to the projector, that I was running the HDMI input 1 DirecTV on either 1080p (for native 1080i) or 720p (for native 720p) (I feel at least with the old 18 GHz microcode that my picture looks its best for HD sources output from Radiance at 1080p/720p and not 4k as this gives me what I feel is the best picture for HD sources and allows my Sony 5000ES projector to use its variable setting Reality Creation, the latter which with the current firmware only works for HD and not 4k) and not using the DirecTV 4k channel. (Note I output from Radiance Pro 3840, not 4096, as this gives me a sharper picture in my setup). I had my sources set at DirecTV for HD, Tivo HD at HD, Oppo 205 at 4k 24p playing, and all of these sources switched fine. However, I had my Apple TV 4k playing at 4k 59.94 Hz, and all sources but the Apple TV would come up on screen. Then I switched to DirecTV channel 104 with 4k 59.94 Hz playing and again no picture. But I could switch to any HD or 4k 24k source and get a picture.
> 
> My brain whirled and I tried something unprecedently new. I turned to DirecTV channel 104 with 4k 59.94 Hz playing. I disconnected HDMI cable to projector from back of Radiance Pro. I turned off my Sony 5000ES projector at my Furman Elite 20PFi where its connected. Then I hit Menu 0851 to upgrade the 18 GHz firmware in the Radiance Pro. After it booted back up, I reconnected the HDMI cable to the Radiance Pro and turned on the projector, and PRESTO everything is working fine. I have two 18 GHz outputs from the Radiance Pro. I tried them both, switching between all sources, and everything seems perfect and works fine.
> 
> Now I'm no engineer or technocrat but my theory is the damn projector HDMI when it gets an incoming signal programs itself in a certain way,
> and when I went thru the above procedure the projector HDMI input got "reprogrammed" and accepted the incoming video signal whether HD or up to 4k 59.94 Hz.
> 
> Though I guess I should keep crossing my fingers in the next few hours and days and hope this continues working smoothly. But I did just put both Radiance Pro outputs through their paces and seems to work glitch free and fine!


Whereas with the old 18 GHz microcode I found that I liked letting my Sony VW5000 do the upscaling for HD video as opposed to the Radiance Pro doing the upscaling, not so with the new and updated 18 GHz microcode. 

However, as I had DirecTV and my TIVO Bolt OTA both set to output HD at 1080p/720p for HD channels, I ran into a snag when I started upscaling DirecTV via Radiance Pro to 4k instead of projector doing it. When I switched inputs like to the TIVO Bolt OTA I lost picture again! Frustrating.

But last, but not least, I fixed it and all seems great! I went back to the old microcode. Then I hit "Menu 0872" so that the Radiance Pro upscaled all HD video to 4k. Then I turned off projector and disconnected HDMI cable (to projector) from back of Radiance Pro. Then I went to the new microcode for the Radiance Pro. Then turned off Radiance Pro after it was all loaded with new microcode. Then followed my normal turn on sequence of projector first and then Radiance Pro. WOW! My video sources connected to Radiance Pro - DirecTV, Oppo 205, TIVO Bolt OTA, and Apple 4k TV, no matter what HD or 4k rate they input to Radiance Pro, output from Radiance Pro 4k; say a program switches HD to 4k and/or refresh rates and/or 1080i or 720p, video sync times seem pretty fast (compared to before) and the picture has never looked this good! With the old microcode, I had found HD video looked as good or better having Radiance Pro output 1080p/720p but NO MORE! Its clear that Lumagen has been improving their
upscaling plus whatever else to improve the picture! NICE!

One more thing so far. If I turn off the projector, leave the Radiance Pro on standby, then come back and turn projector back on, I will get no picture as video sync is lost. If I turn projector on first, wait a tad until the projector picture is about to pop on, then turn on Radiance Pro from standby, so far everything works fine and picture pops up with the new microcode.


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## A7mad78

Intresting and if I want to go back from menu 0872 what code shall I do and do i need to unplug the hdmi when go back or update the microcode 




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## Steve Bruzonsky

A7mad78 said:


> Intresting and if I want to go back from menu 0872 what code shall I do and do i need to unplug the hdmi when go back or update the microcode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I already told you what I did (please read)! And several others here posted that you should disconnect HDMI to projector when you change the 18 GHz microcode. The "Menu 0872" simply changes all outputs to 4k at the same as original refresh rate.


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## A7mad78

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I already told you what I did (please read)! And several others here posted that you should disconnect HDMI to projector when you change the 18 GHz microcode. The "Menu 0872" simply changes all outputs to 4k at the same as original refresh rate.




Thx but i mean vice versa if i want back the projector do the upscale for HD 




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## Steve Bruzonsky

A7mad78 said:


> Thx but i mean vice versa if i want back the projector do the upscale for HD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you are using the projector to do the upscaling, and you have the Radiance Pro set for this, save the Radiance Pro's configuration (Lumagen support page has a utility tool to do this), and then if you're not happy with the Radiance Pro outputting 4k by Menu 0872 then reload the saved configuration.

As to manually changing (and then saving if you want to save) output resolutions, go into the Radiance Pro's output menu, play around a bit, and you will find it!


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## A7mad78

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If you are using the projector to do the upscaling, and you have the Radiance Pro set for this, save the Radiance Pro's configuration (Lumagen support page has a utility tool to do this), and then if you're not happy with the Radiance Pro outputting 4k by Menu 0872 then reload the saved configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> As to manually changing (and then saving if you want to save) output resolutions, go into the Radiance Pro's output menu, play around a bit, and you will find it!




Clear thx a lot 


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## dlinsley

*MadVR and auto-aspect to bypass Lumagen processing?*

Does anyone use MadVR for their PC source, but still switch through their Radiance (which continues to be used for other sources)?

Since I have a Nvidia 1060 card in my PC, I feel I should try MadVR to see if I'm leaving anything significant on the table - especially with the much vaunted NGU scaling for BD. However, is it possible to (in conjunction with whatever playback software) have auto-aspect CIH zooming like the Radiance to 4096x2160 for use with the DCR lens? And then input to the Radiance just for source switching, but bypass all of it's scaling?


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## madshi

That seems more like a madVR specific question, so I'm not sure if it should be discussed in this thread. You might want to follow-up on a madVR specific thread. But to answer shortly: Yes, I believe it should be possible. madVR also does auto-aspect-ratio detection and adjusts zooming automatically, for your CIH setup (you need to setup the "zoom control" settings properly, and you need to setup masking in the "screen config" settings page, which you get after you told madVR that your display is a projector). And your Lumagen should simply pass through the video untouched, if it already exactly matches the output/display resolution.


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## Eventidal

I just saw that the new JVC projectors have pincushion correction. It should be fairly easy to be handled by the Radiance Pro and I have requested it a lot of times from Jim. Quite disappointed that they won´t implement it after all...


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## thrang

Eventidal said:


> I just saw that the new JVC projectors have pincushion correction. It should be fairly easy to be handled by the Radiance Pro and I have requested it a lot of times from Jim. Quite disappointed that they won´t implement it after all...


Hopefully they will reconsider...


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## bobof

Quoting here as it is probably the most relevant place for these discussions... 



Kris Deering said:


> Yes and no. You're oversimplifying a bit. Digital 17 percentage wise is extremely low, so the odds that it will be calibrated in your adjustments is almost nil. More often than not the first percentage most people calibrate is around 5%, and that is way past digital 17. I know with CalMan, after I do a 1D LUT I will go back and add more measurement points near black to see how well it is tracking and usually it is fine.





Dominic Chan said:


> Many consumer displays (including the JVC projectors) have limited granularity in setting the black level (which is essentially the only control you have on code level 17). One “click” will make it either too bright or too dark, one cannot “set” its luminance level.
> 
> In Arves Tool there’s a BBO that people use to make level 17 “visible” without affecting level 16, but to me it’s wrong to create a step between the two levels. Just let the gamma curve determine where level 17 falls, whether you can see it or nor.





Wookii said:


> But what I mean is I thought the Lumagen was limited to 21 greyscale points?


Just a note that might be (slightly) interesting to you folk - particularly anyone using Lumagens with recent JVC units, I have had a bit of a calibration run recently and I found a couple of things. These may not be news to you but they were useful learning points for me.

1) Post 3DLUT for eg BT1886 REC709 indeed (for my X7900 at least) the gamma tracks really well from 5% onwards, but as I had thought the very low codes from 17 upwards do measure slightly too dark for the gamma target. Tweaking the Radiance CMS black level control up a touch (to 0.5 in my case) makes these levels track bang-on and doesn't appear to affect 16. It very slightly raises the low end gamma if you do it post LUT generation, but I think (not tried it yet) that if you do it pre-LUT generation you'll end up tracking perfectly out of black and with correct gamma from 5% onwards.

2) Light Illusion often say in their docs that there is no real need to set 100% white to D65 in the display; that this can be done in the LUT, and while true, there is a non-obvious gotcha for the Radiance. If you have a non-D65 native whitepoint and calibrate so that WTW is not shown (I think common for most projection folk), once the LUT is loaded and it corrects 235,235,235 to D65 it will reveal some WTW codes against the background of the native projector white point. This is because the Radiance doesn't control the WTW whitepoint, so there are some codes that appear because the LUT ends at 235,235,235 and there is still some native (albeit non-D65) white headroom left. Obviously you'll only see it in content with WTW; it is observed in WTW / contrast test images clearly.

3) There is a hack you can do to gain a processing-bypassing "profile off filter on" mode on the JVC X7900 (at least on my X7900); details here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...790-x7900-owners-thread-366.html#post57624280 . It's not perfect, but might be useable for you. This is handy as it gets you much better results in LS LUTs as...

4) You'll be mostly on a hiding to nowhere trying to generate P3 LUTs with the cinema filter on in any of the builtin modes with Lightspace. LS can't currently deal with the fact that the JVC modes with the filter all clip saturation as you get to the gamut extremes (because the projector tracks correctly for the saturation points it can display). This means LS "peak" and "map" LUTs have lots of broken points at the gamut edge, leading to banding. The only workaround so far from LS results in a longwinded process and a much reduced gamut. "fit" fares better, but it is just a matrix + 1D LUT really at its heart (not really volumetric). There is a long discussion in the LS thread with no current practical solution, so the hack in 3) has allowed me to use the filter and generate a very good P3 LUT to use with the new P3 functionality in Radiance Pro.


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## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Tweaking the Radiance CMS black level control up a touch (to 0.5 in my case) makes these levels track bang-on and doesn't appear to affect 16.


I have done this some time ago (post LUT). But at least for my HDR-LUT I'm not sure if that introduced some banding in the low end. 



> 3) There is a hack you can do to gain a processing-bypassing "profile off filter on" mode on the JVC X7900 (at least on my X7900); details here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...790-x7900-owners-thread-366.html#post57624280 . It's not perfect, but might be useable for you. This is handy as it gets you much better results in LS LUTs as...
> 
> 4) You'll be mostly on a hiding to nowhere trying to generate P3 LUTs with the cinema filter on in any of the builtin modes with Lightspace. LS can't currently deal with the fact that the JVC modes with the filter all clip saturation as you get to the gamut extremes (because the projector tracks correctly for the saturation points it can display). This means LS "peak" and "map" LUTs have lots of broken points at the gamut edge, leading to banding. The only workaround so far from LS results in a longwinded process and a much reduced gamut. "fit" fares better, but it is just a matrix + 1D LUT really at its heart (not really volumetric). There is a long discussion in the LS thread with no current practical solution, so the hack in 3) has allowed me to use the filter and generate a very good P3 LUT to use with the new P3 functionality in Radiance Pro.


The remote control documentation for JVC DLA-N5/N7/NX9 (RS1000-3000) includes IR commands for the filter. Logitech added them to the device profile for the NX9. They also work for my X9500. But I haven't made any attempt to generate a LUT based on this. I'm saving this for the time when my NX9 finally arrives.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I have done this some time ago (post LUT). But at least for my HDR-LUT I'm not sure if that introduced some banding in the low end.


I guess the beauty is you can choose to do this or not do this for each of the CMS options, so just get the benefit in SDR and leave it as it was for HDR. What is interesting is that if you use the black control with a standard code 16 /17 test image on a JVC to make 17 "just visible" you end up making this worse. For me I can reduce this control down to -0.5 and 17 is still >just< visible, but the low levels track worse than at 0 or +0.5. Anyway, something to consider.



KarlKlammer said:


> I have done this some time ago (post LUT). But at least for my HDR-LUT I'm not sure if that introduced some banding in the low end.
> 
> The remote control documentation for JVC DLA-N5/N7/NX9 (RS1000-3000) includes IR commands for the filter. Logitech added them to the device profile for the NX9. They also work for my X9500. But I haven't made any attempt to generate a LUT based on this. I'm saving this for the time when my NX9 finally arrives.


That is handy to know, I'd been sending the codes over IP to activate the filter; Harmony is easier. I will start to use that one as then I can add it to the power-off sequence, I'd already been using the old JVC model instead of the current as it had some of the discrete user mode buttons in it. 

The quirk on the X7900 is that it is only a temporary setting until HDMI resync happens, unless you power off with the filter forced on and then it becomes permanent until you change modes to a profile without the filter (and shutdown).

You get superb LUTs for profile off mode with the filter enabled. In high lamp on my X7900 LS reckon at something like 94-95% DCI P3, low lamp is a couple of % lower.

Be really interesting to see your profiles on the NX9, please share!


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> That is handy to know, I'd been sending the codes over IP to activate the filter; Harmony is easier. I will start to use that one as then I can add it to the power-off sequence, I'd already been using the old JVC model instead of the current as it had some of the discrete user mode buttons in it.
> 
> The quirk on the X7900 is that it is only a temporary setting until HDMI resync happens, unless you power off with the filter forced on and then it becomes permanent until you change modes to a profile without the filter (and shutdown).
> 
> You get superb LUTs for profile off mode with the filter enabled. In high lamp on my X7900 LS reckon at something like 94-95% DCI P3, low lamp is a couple of % lower.


I made sure they added *all* available commands. 

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/manual/2018_ILA-FPJ_Remote_Control_Code_Table_V1.1.pdf

But I have to see what the note at the bottom of the page means for the NX9. With the X9500 there was no limitation for both commands.


----------



## Dominic Chan

bobof said:


> Quoting
> 
> 1) Post 3DLUT for eg BT1886 REC709 indeed (for my X7900 at least) the gamma tracks really well from 5% onwards, but as I had thought the very low codes from 17 upwards do measure slightly too dark for the gamma target. Tweaking the Radiance CMS black level control up a touch (to 0.5 in my case) makes these levels track bang-on and doesn't appear to affect 16. It very slightly raises the low end gamma if you do it post LUT generation, but I think (not tried it yet) that if you do it pre-LUT generation you'll end up tracking perfectly out of black and with correct gamma from 5% onwards.


Probably related to this: 

When viewing HDR black clipping patterns, I noticed some “rainbow colours” effect where one code value (e.g. level 80) has a visibly different tint compared with the adjacent patterns. Adjusting the individual colour gamma controls doesn’t help and I was considering editing the individual 256-pt gamma tables.

Presumably it’s not something even a 3DLUT can fix.


----------



## bobof

bobof said:


> 2) Light Illusion often say in their docs that there is no real need to set 100% white to D65 in the display; that this can be done in the LUT, and while true, there is a non-obvious gotcha for the Radiance. If you have a non-D65 native whitepoint and calibrate so that WTW is not shown (I think common for most projection folk), once the LUT is loaded and it corrects 235,235,235 to D65 it will reveal some WTW codes against the background of the native projector white point. This is because the Radiance doesn't control the WTW whitepoint, so there are some codes that appear because the LUT ends at 235,235,235 and there is still some native (albeit non-D65) white headroom left. Obviously you'll only see it in content with WTW; it is observed in WTW / contrast test images clearly.


So I have two options here:
1) Have no WTW levels available, all clipped, and white is always D65.
2) I can leave it as is, with D65 up to 235,235,235, and leave the little bit of headroom between that and the native panel white point as a little bit of "free" WTW (It isn't costing me any contrast, but it also isn't D65 - progressively more and more yellow as you get further away from 235 and towards native white).

What would you learned folk do?


----------



## Dominic Chan

bobof said:


> So I have two options here:
> 1) Have no WTW levels available, all clipped, and white is always D65.
> 2) I can leave it as is, with D65 up to 235,235,235, and leave the little bit of headroom between that and the native panel white point as a little bit of "free" WTW (It isn't costing me any contrast, but it also isn't D65 - progressively more and more yellow as you get further away from 235 and towards native white).
> 
> What would you learned folk do?


I don’t claim to be “learned”, but personally I would adjust the white point externally and use the full cube to do more useful stuff. Especially if the headroom is off colour.


----------



## LJG

Just wondering if there’s an updated release schedule for dynamic tone mapping?


----------



## darksets

bobof said:


> Gordon reported an issue with a UK satellite box. It seems that some boxes output a signal indicating 16:9, and it looks like this overrides AA. I wonder if this is the issue you have.


I ended up fixing the problem by upgrading my cable box to the newest model (Arris). Auto aspect detection now works perfectly. However, it depends on what video format I set the cable box to output. When I select 1080i it doesn't work. It only works when I select 1080p or 2160p. That would also explain why it wasn't working with my old cable box which didn't have 1080p or 2160p options.


----------



## giomania

Assuming that somebody has a 2018 model JVC projector, and possibly some first-hand calibration experience, I thought I would ask my calibration setup questions here. 

I was wondering what would be the ideal settings for an SDR2020 calibration using ChromaPure auto-calibration? I am asking due to the recommendation of setting the display to the most accurate SDR wide-gamut picture mode, with Rec. 2020 color. I am trying to figure out the ideal settings to achieve the Lumagen recommendation on the RS540, and here are the settings I think need to be adjusted:

Color Space: YCbCr (4:2:2), as recommended by Lumagen

Picture Mode: Natural

Clear Black: Off ???

Lens Aperture: Manual at "0"??? I have seen posts in the JVC thread that DI should be turned off during calibration, so I just want to confirm how to do that.

Color Profile: Reference??? I have seen posts in the JVC thread that this color profile is the most accurate.

Color Temp.: 6500K

Gamma: 2.2??? Not sure about this, given the detailed guidance on gamma settings from the calibration training slide deck Jim posted:

B.	Check the default Gamma curve of the display.
i.	Specifications call for a Gamma of 2.2, however many professionals prefer a Gamma of 2.4.
ii.	Consider changing the Gamma to its highest setting before doing the calibration. 
a)	If the display has a 1D LUT for grayscale calibration, you can even calibrate it to increase the display Gamma to 3, or 4. Depending on the internal precision of the display, it may result in lower noise near black for HDR material. 
b)	The result is the HDMI interface from the Radiance™ Pro to the display is at a higher Gamma, which can potentially provide additional precision near black. The output Gamma will be correct after the calibration of the Radiance™ Pro 1D grayscale LUT and 3D color cube LUT. 
c)	Just as the higher HDR Gamma helps reduce noise near black, this can help preserve the benefit of the higher Gamma used for HDR sources.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I'm in the same boat Mark; I'm just about to get round to calibrating my X7500 using Chromapure V3 and my Lumagen Pro for SDR/2020. Hopefully we'll get some advice from the experts, this is what I think based on what I've read/previous calibrations on JVCs and my older Radiance.

Color Space: YCbCr (4:2:2), as recommended by Lumagen: Agree

Picture Mode: Natural: I use one of the User modes, but I'm not sure how important this is if you change the other settings listed below.

Clear Black: Off ??? Yes...Personally I'm not a fan as I've seen it add noise/artefacts to some low level test patterns.

Lens Aperture: Manual at "0"??? I have seen posts in the JVC thread that DI should be turned off during calibration, so I just want to confirm how to do that: Agree turn off DI during calibration, iris at whatever peak white level you want to target (or 0 if you just want the full output).

Color Profile: Reference??? I have seen posts in the JVC thread that this color profile is the most accurate: Not sure as previously I've been recommend to use 'OFF' or 'Wide'.

Color Temp.: 6500K: I run a base measurement to see which is closest to 6500K. It might be that I use 5500K setting or 7500K. In any case I will adjust the gains to set the 100% colour temperature. In the past I haven't adjusted the low end RGB to avoid raising black level, not sure if this is still the recommendation for X7500 onward JVCs.

Gamma: 2.2??? I was planning on aiming for 2.4, but also saw Jim's comments about 'the highest gamma before calibration' so my plan now is to set the JVC to 2.6 unless I hear otherwise by the time I get round to this calibration.

I've read through the Pro manual and was looking for any tips on the Lumagen site, but didn't see anything specifically related to this (or tone mapping settings, which are still an enigma to me). I did find a Chromapure document that explains how to set up for HDR/2020 and SDR/2020 entitled: 'Advanced LUT Auto-calibration with the Lumagen Pro'. That should be enough information for you to search for it, if you haven't come across it already.

I spent a couple of years learning video calibration using the early versions of Chromapure and manual calibration, eventually getting a Mini 3D Lumagen and using autocalibration. I have a pretty good handle on HD calibration to rec709/2.2 gamma, but I feel there is still much to learn about 4K/HDR/rec2020 calibration.


----------



## giomania

Kelvin1965S said:


> I'm in the same boat Mark; I'm just about to get round to calibrating my X7500 using Chromapure V3 and my Lumagen Pro for SDR/2020. Hopefully we'll get some advice from the experts, this is what I think based on what I've read/previous calibrations on JVCs and my older Radiance.
> 
> Color Space: YCbCr (4:2:2), as recommended by Lumagen: Agree
> 
> Picture Mode: Natural: I use one of the User modes, but I'm not sure how important this is if you change the other settings listed below. Good point; I see in the manual (Page 33) that all the color profiles are available to be selected in the user modes.
> 
> Clear Black: Off ??? Yes...Personally I'm not a fan as I've seen it add noise/artefacts to some low level test patterns.
> 
> Lens Aperture: Manual at "0"??? I have seen posts in the JVC thread that DI should be turned off during calibration, so I just want to confirm how to do that: Agree turn off DI during calibration, iris at whatever peak white level you want to target (or 0 if you just want the full output). It seems this adjustment would be made when setting the display peak white level, as covered in "Calibrating Display White Level process.
> 
> Color Profile: Reference??? I have seen posts in the JVC thread that this color profile is the most accurate: Not sure as previously I've been recommend to use 'OFF' or 'Wide'. I don't see the color profile options of 'OFF' or 'Wide' for the RS540 on page 32 of the manual. Based on that page, I am guessing that the 'HDR' (without filter) or 'BT.2020' (with filter) color profile would cover the Lumagen's recommendation of "Set the display to the most accurate SDR wide-gamut picture mode, with Rec. 2020 color.". If we need to stay strictly in SDR, then the two color profile options that seem best are either 'Natural' (without filter) or 'Reference' (with filter).
> 
> Color Temp.: 6500K: I run a base measurement to see which is closest to 6500K. It might be that I use 5500K setting or 7500K. In any case I will adjust the gains to set the 100% colour temperature. In the past I haven't adjusted the low end RGB to avoid raising black level, not sure if this is still the recommendation for X7500 onward JVCs.
> 
> Gamma: 2.2??? I was planning on aiming for 2.4, but also saw Jim's comments about 'the highest gamma before calibration' so my plan now is to set the JVC to 2.6 unless I hear otherwise by the time I get round to this calibration.
> 
> I've read through the Pro manual and was looking for any tips on the Lumagen site, but didn't see anything specifically related to this (or tone mapping settings, which are still an enigma to me). I did find a Chromapure document that explains how to set up for HDR/2020 and SDR/2020 entitled: 'Advanced LUT Auto-calibration with the Lumagen Pro'. That should be enough information for you to search for it, if you haven't come across it already. I found that ChromaPure document awhile ago when starting this adventure. Since this is very confusing to me, I created an MS Word document that is 77 pages long. The document took material from the calibration slide deck, the Radiance Pro Manual, and ChromaPure documentation. I wanted to have all the information in one place, organized by sections, so I don't have to go hunting through different documents and (multiple places) in the Radiance Pro manual for a given subject. I also have a section on Tone mapping. I created step by step calibration instructions in the document, and the plan is to have it in front of me as I calibrate. I don't have a lot of spare time to go back and redo things as I find information here and there, so I wanted to do it (fairly accurately) one time. If you want me to share this with you, I can email it. I could share it as a Google document, but I don't want to get in trouble with Lumagen, since I copied text from their manual, and then re-wrote it in some instances to make it a "Calibration for Dummies" style.
> 
> I spent a couple of years learning video calibration using the early versions of Chromapure and manual calibration, eventually getting a Mini 3D Lumagen and using autocalibration. I have a pretty good handle on HD calibration to rec709/2.2 gamma, but I feel there is still much to learn about 4K/HDR/rec2020 calibration.


Comments in red above.

Mark


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Thanks Mark,

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page with this. You may be right about there not being an 'OFF' option as I could be thinking of my previous X500 (since I haven't run any calibration on this X7500). In that case I would plan to do some pre calibration checks to see which covers the largest gamut without the filter (I have an AT screen and would prefer to avoid high lamp if I can).

I'll PM you with my email as your PDF sounds very useful. 

I was just thinking I might update my Lumagen as I'm running an older firmware from over a year ago. I started with the basic calibration of the display black levels using the manual's instructions, but figure I should update before I go too far.


----------



## bobof

At least on the X7900, if the JVC is set in "HDR" picture mode you can't select colour profile off; you can only select it in (I think) a user mode. On the old X30, the closest to profile off was Wide2.


----------



## Dominic Chan

giomania said:


> It seems this adjustment would be made when setting the display peak white level, as covered in "Calibrating Display White Level process.


It's the peak white for whatever other settings you prefer, including the luminance level. For SDR you would adjust the projector controls to achieve 50 nits (using the manual iris) and well as D65 (using the RGB gains), and _then_ run the calibration.



> I don't see the color profile options of 'OFF' or 'Wide' for the RS540 on page 32 of the manual.


Profile "Off" is available in the User Picture Modes. See page 31 of the manual.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Thanks Dominic; I guess 'OFF' is still the recommended choice or is that just for rec709 calibration?
@bobof I guess we wouldn't be using the projector in HDR though if the Lumagen is tone mapping? Or have I got that bit wrong as well?

Just running an update on my Pro. It took two laptops as the first one didn't recognise my USB/RS232 adaptor and it's a work laptop, so nothing I could do. Luckily I claimed my son's old laptop before he went to Uni (well we did buy him a newer one) and that works and has Chromapure V3 loaded for when I'm ready to run (and my wife goes out for the night ).


----------



## Dominic Chan

Kelvin1965S said:


> Thanks Dominic; I guess 'OFF' is still the recommended choice or is that just for rec709 calibration?


“Profile Off” does not engage the P3 colour filter unless you use the trick that bobof discovered.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Thanks Dominic, without wishing to start a witch hunt (as per another thread I saw), but I'm happy not to use the filter, so that will suit me fine.

I've just done the update to 112818 and had trouble getting my PVR to work properly via the Lumagen: It's a 1080/50i output and the TV was showing a stuttering image (1080/50p), like it was only showing every other frame (or less). It worked fine with my UHD player, so I checked various settings. I changed Genlock to 'on' and this didn't help, but when I turned it off again for that input, the stuttering stopped. 

Hoping it stays working OK as I don't want to have to do a full reset of the Lumagen (I have various settings for 2.35:1 without anamorphic lens and masking that I'd prefer not to have to put back in). I may risk turning it off and on again to check, but my wife wants to watch something this evening.


----------



## stefanop

Installed latest firmware, I haven't performed a reset, switched to new 18GHz microcode. It works. No problems. Projector is a VW5000ES. Auto aspect, now, works too and fill my CIH screen perfectly...everytime. Great job with this firmware!!


----------



## bobof

Kelvin1965S said:


> Thanks Dominic; I guess 'OFF' is still the recommended choice or is that just for rec709 calibration?
> 
> @bobof I guess we wouldn't be using the projector in HDR though if the Lumagen is tone mapping? Or have I got that bit wrong as well?
> 
> Just running an update on my Pro. It took two laptops as the first one didn't recognise my USB/RS232 adaptor and it's a work laptop, so nothing I could do. Luckily I claimed my son's old laptop before he went to Uni (well we did buy him a newer one) and that works and has Chromapure V3 loaded for when I'm ready to run (and my wife goes out for the night ).


I'm not sure what most folk are doing these days as there are so many options for how you can configure the Pro and projector.
As I've discovered a way to "profile off" to work with "filter on" I'm currently using that for everything, as my own X7900 doesn't cover REC709 green well without filter. I've set up 3 modes on my PJ; one for SDR which is profile off filter on for about 56 nit / 16FtL output (low / -10 iris). Then I've set up the same for HDR but with different lamp / iris settings (low -5 for about 75-80nits with better contrast than fully open, and I'm playing with a high lamp option), and I have the Lumagen configured to output "P3" without the HDR flag so I can use my user modes. I'm creating a P3 LUT in LS and uploading that. The P3 LUT is gamma 2.4 with SDR selected in the Lumagen menu for the LUT gamma, with the tone mapping being done by the Lumagen. I think this way I'm maximising use of the HDMI bits and getting the widest possible gamuts.

You can use a USB lead into the pro instead of a serial adapter, it has an FTDI serial adapter internally I believe.


----------



## loggeo

Kelvin1965S said:


> Thanks Dominic, without wishing to start a witch hunt (as per another thread I saw), but I'm happy not to use the filter, so that will suit me fine.
> 
> I've just done the update to 112818 and had trouble getting my PVR to work properly via the Lumagen: It's a 1080/50i output and the TV was showing a stuttering image (1080/50p), like it was only showing every other frame (or less). It worked fine with my UHD player, so I checked various settings. I changed Genlock to 'on' and this didn't help, but when I turned it off again for that input, the stuttering stopped.
> 
> Hoping it stays working OK as I don't want to have to do a full reset of the Lumagen (I have various settings for 2.35:1 without anamorphic lens and masking that I'd prefer not to have to put back in). I may risk turning it off and on again to check, but my wife wants to watch something this evening.



I have a problem with my satellite receiver too (pace). The only way I could make it work was to set a separate memory output, and enable video limit to 9Ghz under input-->options-->hdmi setup-->video edid.


----------



## loggeo

bobof said:


> I'm not sure what most folk are doing these days as there are so many options for how you can configure the Pro and projector.
> As I've discovered a way to "profile off" to work with "filter on" I'm currently using that for everything, as my own X7900 doesn't cover REC709 green well without filter. I've set up 3 modes on my PJ; one for SDR which is profile off filter on for about 56 nit / 16FtL output (low / -10 iris). Then I've set up the same for HDR but with different lamp / iris settings (low -5 for about 75-80nits with better contrast than fully open, and I'm playing with a high lamp option), and I have the Lumagen configured to output "P3" without the HDR flag so I can use my user modes. I'm creating a P3 LUT in LS and uploading that. The P3 LUT is gamma 2.4 with SDR selected in the Lumagen menu for the LUT gamma, with the tone mapping being done by the Lumagen. I think this way I'm maximising use of the HDMI bits and getting the widest possible gamuts.
> 
> You can use a USB lead into the pro instead of a serial adapter, it has an FTDI serial adapter internally I believe.



i have been playing around with ls, p3 lut and lut concatenation. I am curious about the color convert option though. Do you have it set to Yes? I am not sure what is the ideal choice.


----------



## Ferdy7

Hi guys, I've been using Radiance Pro for some time to calibrate my projector. at the moment I get about 90 nits to 100% white. 
what value is recommended for the light display output in the tone mapping menu? 
shape and trans less than 2500 nits? 

Thanks!


----------



## Ferdy7

I use the SDR2020 output mode from the Radiance with a 2.4 gamma calibrated in the projector, as recommended by JRP.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> i have been playing around with ls, p3 lut and lut concatenation. I am curious about the color convert option though. Do you have it set to Yes? I am not sure what is the ideal choice.


I think (I'm not sure, struggling a bit with the terminology) that you would only use the convert option if your LUT is a P3 LUT and the particular CMS slot is for SDR playback. I think in that case it maps the 709 input into the subset of P3 output that corresponds to the 709 space. Or at least that is how I understand it.

In my case, no, I don't have convert set. I have two different LUTs, so two different CMS banks, one I use for 709 content (which maps PJ native to 709), and another that maps PJ native to P3.

I don't know if this is "right" or "best", but to me it seems most logical just because the P3 LUT is a bit compromised (as my X7900 can't reach all of P3) so it seems better to just use it for HDR playback, and make a "proper" 709 LUT which definitely ends up with the correct points in the right places, rather than mapping into something that is already a suboptimal mapping.

Not sure if my logic makes sense to you, it (almost) makes sense to me.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

loggeo said:


> I have a problem with my satellite receiver too (pace). The only way I could make it work was to set a separate memory output, and enable video limit to 9Ghz under input-->options-->hdmi setup-->video edid.


I have already set that option because I'm currently using a HDMI balun set up that is limited to 9Ghz. I've had a couple of issues since I updated the firmware this weekend when using the PVR (Humax model FWIW). Previously it would sometimes not sync and give a picture/sound, so I'd have to restart the PVR, but this weekend sometimes just changing channels seemed to cause a problem and a brief 'snowstorm' screen before re-syncing. 

I don't know which micro-code I'm using, but since I've never actively changed it then I guess it's the original version? Maybe I ought to try the newer micro-code, but just need to read back to check how it is changed.


----------



## Mike_WI

Kelvin1965S said:


> I have already set that option because I'm currently using a HDMI balun set up that is limited to 9Ghz. I've had a couple of issues since I updated the firmware this weekend when using the PVR (Humax model FWIW). Previously it would sometimes not sync and give a picture/sound, so I'd have to restart the PVR, but this weekend sometimes just changing channels seemed to cause a problem and a brief 'snowstorm' screen before re-syncing.
> 
> I don't know which micro-code I'm using, but since I've never actively changed it then I guess it's the original version? Maybe I ought to try the newer micro-code, but just need to read back to check how it is changed.


FYI...

*0850 - switch to original firmware*
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent

*0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware*
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

2019 Feb 6 - Steve Bruzonsky
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-128.html#post57561822
*Menu 0536 *will show an info screen to tell whether you have old vs new 18GHz microcode. 
On the info screen, a *0 at very bottom right means the old code* and a *1 means the new code*.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Thanks Mike. I changed the 18GHz output microcode to the latest version following your instructions. It did occur to me whether this would have any impact on my current system as I am limited to 9Ghz due to using a HDMI/Cat 7 balun set up. Does the 18Ghz microcode have any effect when not running at 18Ghz output?

I've made some changes* to the settings applied to the input I have my PVR on and they seem to have resolved my loss of picture/white noise when changing channels. 

Fingers crossed that issue is resolved (more for domestic harmony to be honest ), but I'll apply the same settings for use with my X7500 as it's a pain being plunged into darkness if I change channels when watching on the projector. 


*Since the PVR only outputs 1080/50i I changed the output rate to the same 1080/50p for ALL different resolution/rate on input #1 . I believe that when it changes channels from SD to HD, sometimes the Lumagen detects 'OTHER' input which was set to something like 2160/50p which my TV can't accept. Now that it is set to 1080/50p for every input resolution/rate on input 1 it seems to be more stable and I didn't have any white noise between channel changes last night.


----------



## Mike_WI

Kelvin1965S said:


> Thanks Mike. I changed the 18GHz output microcode to the latest version following your instructions. It did occur to me whether this would have any impact on my current system as I am limited to 9Ghz due to using a HDMI/Cat 7 balun set up. Does the 18Ghz microcode have any effect when not running at 18Ghz output?


I don't know functions of new code.
It didn't work for me in the past and now the new 18Ghz microcode is working. 
Only JRP knows.


----------



## giomania

KarlKlammer said:


> The remote control documentation for JVC DLA-N5/N7/NX9 (RS1000-3000) includes IR commands for the filter. Logitech added them to the device profile for the NX9. They also work for my X9500.





bobof said:


> That is handy to know, I'd been sending the codes over IP to activate the filter; Harmony is easier. I will start to use that one as then I can add it to the power-off sequence, I'd already been using the old JVC model instead of the current as it had some of the discrete user mode buttons in it.
> 
> The quirk on the X7900 is that it is only a temporary setting until HDMI resync happens, unless you power off with the filter forced on and then it becomes permanent until you change modes to a profile without the filter (and shutdown).
> 
> You get superb LUTs for profile off mode with the filter enabled. In high lamp on my X7900 LS reckon at something like 94-95% DCI P3, low lamp is a couple of % lower.





KarlKlammer said:


> I made sure they added *all* available commands.
> 
> http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/manual/2018_ILA-FPJ_Remote_Control_Code_Table_V1.1.pdf
> 
> But I have to see what the note at the bottom of the page means for the NX9. With the X9500 there was no limitation for both commands.


I have searched both the "2018 ILA-FPJ Remote Control Codes Table (V1.1)" (posted above), as well as the "External Command Communication Specification Ver. 1.2" (Link here), and cannot find the command referenced above to enable or disable the DCI-P3 filter. Can you point me to the specific command location on the given document and/or page?

Thank you very much.

Mark


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> I have searched both the "2018 ILA-FPJ Remote Control Codes Table (V1.1)" (posted above), as well as the "External Command Communication Specification Ver. 1.2" (Link here), and cannot find the command referenced above to enable or disable the DCI-P3 filter. Can you point me to the specific command location on the given document and/or page?
> 
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Mark


Code D2 (Solenoid normal) and D3 (solenoid wide) change the filter position.
I notice on my unit that the filter position only sticks until an HDMI input resync - UNLESS I power cycle after enabling the filter in profile off mode, then it seems to stick for profile off mode.


----------



## KarlKlammer

giomania said:


> I have searched both the "2018 ILA-FPJ Remote Control Codes Table (V1.1)" (posted above), as well as the "External Command Communication Specification Ver. 1.2" (Link here), and cannot find the command referenced above to enable or disable the DCI-P3 filter. Can you point me to the specific command location on the given document and/or page?
> 
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Mark


 It's sightly cryptic. 

Solenoid(Normal) = filter disabled
Solenoid(Wide) = filter enabled


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Code D2 (Solenoid normal) and D3 (solenoid wide) change the filter position.
> I notice on my unit that the filter position only sticks until an HDMI input resync - UNLESS I power cycle after enabling the filter in profile off mode, then it seems to stick for profile off mode.





KarlKlammer said:


> It's sightly cryptic.
> 
> Solenoid(Normal) = filter disabled
> Solenoid(Wide) = filter enabled


Thanks gents. 

What about the annotation: (*1) This command is effective in the following cases.
- No Input
- Displaying test pattern.

Now I need to convert those to Pronto Hex using makehex.exe, as noted in a prior post. Edit: Nevermind, as the Pronto Hex is in the 2015 documentation.


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> What about the annotation: (*1) This command is effective in the following cases.
> - No Input
> - Displaying test pattern.


I dunno... I read that note as a challenge?! 

All I can say is it doesn't behave that way on my X7900. I wasn't surprised because JVC's firmware controls are pretty "lax" - see all the issues that happen around powering on / off with different iris settings on my unit, issues of grinding irises, etc.

But if one day you turn on the PJ and it launches the cinema filter through the lens at you and embeds it in your forehead, I don't wanna hear you whining...! 

I've actually discovered profile off filter on appears to be a bit of a hidden gem. On my unit it appears that once you adjust profile off with filter on to D65 there is zero light loss compared to if you adjust profile off filter off to D65. So I seem to get the wider colour gamut with no real world brightness loss, and a useful contrast improvement (because it allows more panel dynamic range to be used to generate D65 white, and the black level is improved).


----------



## Dominic Chan

giomania said:


> What about the annotation: (*1) This command is effective in the following cases.
> - No Input
> - Displaying test pattern.


This seems to imply you can diaplay test patterns using ip commands, which would be quite handy. I haven’t seen those commands, however.


----------



## jrp

loggeo said:


> I have a problem with my satellite receiver too (pace). The only way I could make it work was to set a separate memory output, and enable video limit to 9Ghz under input-->options-->hdmi setup-->video edid.


We have seen a number of 1080 devices that have not written their EDID parsers with future changes in mind. One such device family is the DirecTV 1080 receivers. For these devices we have a manual Input Memory setting to reduce the EDID back to what they can process.

Note that generally audio is most affected by the EDID parser issue in these devices.

In the Radiance Pro MENU->Input->Option->HDMI Setup->Video EDID and change Video Limit to 1080p, press OK to accept and then do a Save.

In the cases we know about this has fixed DirecTV issues as well as issues in other 1080i/p devices.


----------



## bobof

Dominic Chan said:


> This seems to imply you can diaplay test patterns using ip commands, which would be quite handy. I haven’t seen those commands, however.


I'm pretty sure it has been available forever; it is how Autocal works, after all.
There are some codes in this ancient X30 manual, along with entertaining things like being able to disable individual panels and other exciting stuff...
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/manual/2011model_CEDIA_spec_v1.7_English_20111219.pdf
A brief play with Autocal and wireshark would probably confirm.


----------



## OzHDHT

I got the new 18ghz microcode going with no dramas at all on my RS4500. 



On the calibration side, after deciding not to spend any more time with Chromapure, I bought CalMan to give it's autocal a go. However, in trying it both on my laptop and then later on my HTPC (both Windows 10), for the life of me I couldn't get it recognise the Lumagen in source find mode on either. Both can be easily used to connect the firmware updates and the correct com port is automatically identified however you end up with a connection error. It absolutely stumped me since Chromapure has absolutely no issue communicating with the Lumagen. To this end I may end up going back to Chromapure. I might have to post in the CalMan thread to see if there's any simple solutions but all of the standard PC troubleshooting efforts were of no help.


----------



## jrp

loggeo said:


> i have been playing around with ls, p3 lut and lut concatenation. I am curious about the color convert option though. Do you have it set to Yes? I am not sure what is the ideal choice.


You need to enable the color space "auto convert" for playback, but disable it for calibration.

For calibration you want the data points passed to the projector/TV without any changes (except maybe format choice of RGB, or 4:2:2, or 4:4:4). If the points were converted by the Pro then the calibration would be incorrect. Set the calibration software to target the primary points for the appropriate color space and Gamma = 2.4. Set the Pro output CMS Colorspace to the desired mode, but disable the "Auto convert." For P3 this means you need a very recent software release that allows the auto convert to P3 to be disabled.

Then calibrate. For example for P3 (making sure to select D65 for white point if there is a choice between D65 and DCI white) set the calibration software to target P3, set the CMS Colorspace =P3, and leave the output color mode at4:2:2. For this example let's use CMS0. Have the Pro generate SDR patterns, then the calibration software will measure to the selected P3 targets with a Gamma of 2.4 and adjust the Pro 1D and 3D LUT as needed. You can then copy CMS0 to CMS1 for use with HDR. For HDR in CMS1 enable the color space (already set to SDRP3) auto convert, enable HDR Mapping, and set the Display Max Light. Make sure to Save. You can use the calibration left in CMS0 for SDR and HDR sources assuming there no issue in teh projector/TV.


----------



## Dominic Chan

bobof said:


> I've actually discovered profile off filter on appears to be a bit of a hidden gem. On my unit it appears that once you adjust profile off with filter on to D65 there is zero light loss compared to if you adjust profile off filter off to D65. So I seem to get the wider colour gamut with no real world brightness loss, and a useful contrast improvement (because it allows more panel dynamic range to be used to generate D65 white, and the black level is improved).


Here are my measurements (on my x750), which include the nits as well as the individual RGB percentage relative to Rec709:

Rec709 6500K (134 nits)
100, 100, 100

Rec709F (115 nits)
85, 86, 86

BT2020NF (134 nits)
98, 100, 100

BT2020 (115 nits)
83, 86, 86

Profile Off - High Bright (163 nits)
113, 124, 111

Profile Off, Filter on (148 nits)
94, 114, 112

The filter cuts Red even more than Green. In my case there would be a drop in luminance when calibrated with the filter. Also, in the past I noticed that reducing RGB Gains actually reduce the luminance of the primary colours.


----------



## jrp

*Dynamic Tone Mapping*

Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight). I have tested the prerelease version and have watched many hours of HDR and viewing extended portions of perhaps 10 movies (tough job I have 😊). I think the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping looks excellent and I see a visible improvement versus the Static Tone Mapping of earlier releases, especially for source material that incorrectly reports MaxCLL. I did not see any “less than optimal” decisions made by the Dynamic Tone Mapping in my viewing. So, I think this will be a good release to post for everyone to test.

Of course, there may be further improvement possible. Once you have the Dynamic Tone Mapping, if you see something you think might be improved, email lumagen.com support with the player/streamer model, movie/program and time stamp. Include a description of what you are seeing and what you think might be done to improve it. There is a chance we can improve the scene you point out. However, understand it might be intrinsic to dynamically calculated MaxCLL.

Dynamic Tone Mapping can change the effective MaxCLL on any frame, but it only makes sense to change it at the beginning of a scene. Changing it in the middle of the scene would cause a visible change in areas of the picture that should not be change during the scene. So, the Radiance Pro works by changing the effective MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.

You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel menu. Note: Dynamic Tone Mapping is disabled by default (at least for now). The menu looks like:

Enabled: No, Yes
Level: 1 to 8
For Input Current or All
For Memory Current or All

As noted in the DynamicLevel menu you can press the “ALT” key while the menu is active if you want to show an abbreviated menu at the bottom of the screen, so it is out of the way for testing different “Level” values and off versus on. Press OK to get back to the normal menu screen.

The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.

We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.

As always, if you have a bug report, please email lumagen.com support. Include as much information as you can (e.g. source device, movie/program, timestamp, how to reproduce, etc.). You can also post here if you wish, but we see bug reports emailed to us quickly and may not see bug report here for some time.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight). I have tested the prerelease version and have watched many hours of HDR and viewing extended portions of perhaps 10 movies (tough job I have 😊). I think the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping looks excellent and I see a visible improvement versus the Static Tone Mapping of earlier releases, especially for source material that incorrectly reports MaxCLL. I did not see any “less than optimal” decisions made by the Dynamic Tone Mapping in my viewing. So, I think this will be a good release to post for everyone to test.
> 
> Of course, there may be further improvement possible. Once you have the Dynamic Tone Mapping, if you see something you think might be improved, email lumagen.com support with the player/streamer model, movie/program and time stamp. Include a description of what you are seeing and what you think might be done to improve it. There is a chance we can improve the scene you point out. However, understand it might be intrinsic to dynamically calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> Dynamic Tone Mapping can change the effective MaxCLL on any frame, but it only makes sense to change it at the beginning of a scene. Changing it in the middle of the scene would cause a visible change in areas of the picture that should not be change during the scene. So, the Radiance Pro works by changing the effective MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.
> 
> You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel menu. Note: Dynamic Tone Mapping is disabled by default (at least for now). The menu looks like:
> 
> Enabled: No, Yes
> Level: 1 to 8
> For Input Current or All
> For Memory Current or All
> 
> As noted in the DynamicLevel menu you can press the “ALT” key while the menu is active if you want to show an abbreviated menu at the bottom of the screen, so it is out of the way for testing different “Level” values and off versus on. Press OK to get back to the normal menu screen.
> 
> The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.
> 
> We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> As always, if you have a bug report, please email lumagen.com support. Include as much information as you can (e.g. source device, movie/program, timestamp, how to reproduce, etc.). You can also post here if you wish, but we see bug reports emailed to us quickly and may not see bug report here for some time.


Great news


EDIT:
I remembered to look back at this:
(bold added)

02-07-19
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-128.html#post57564990


> Also, noting the dates of FWs:
> 112818
> 111718
> 
> The 112818 (newest) FW must have been alpha tested for a while and is over 2 months "old".
> *I would speculate that the next FW will be a "big one".* I have no inside knowledge, just speculating.


----------



## alex_t

jrp said:


> Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.
> 
> We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> .



Hello Jim,


Thank you for this great news.


Could you confirm that LEVEL is automatically set at 8 (whatever the user's setting) when Static MaxCLL is not reported by a source ?


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> You need to enable the color space "auto convert" for playback, but disable it for calibration.
> 
> For calibration you want the data points passed to the projector/TV without any changes (except maybe format choice of RGB, or 4:2:2, or 4:4:4). If the points were converted by the Pro then the calibration would be incorrect. Set the calibration software to target the primary points for the appropriate color space and Gamma = 2.4. Set the Pro output CMS Colorspace to the desired mode, but disable the "Auto convert." For P3 this means you need a very recent software release that allows the auto convert to P3 to be disabled.
> 
> Then calibrate. For example for P3 (making sure to select D65 for white point if there is a choice between D65 and DCI white) set the calibration software to target P3, set the CMS Colorspace =P3, and leave the output color mode at4:2:2. For this example let's use CMS0. Have the Pro generate SDR patterns, then the calibration software will measure to the selected P3 targets with a Gamma of 2.4 and adjust the Pro 1D and 3D LUT as needed. You can then copy CMS0 to CMS1 for use with HDR. For HDR in CMS1 enable the color space (already set to SDRP3) auto convert, enable HDR Mapping, and set the Display Max Light. Make sure to Save. You can use the calibration left in CMS0 for SDR and HDR sources assuming there no issue in teh projector/TV.


Is there any benefit (other than a reduction in calibration profiling time) to using the same 3DLUT for REC709 and P3?

Ps. really looking forward to seeing the dynamic tone mapping release.


----------



## roxiedog13

jrp said:


> Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight). I have tested the prerelease version and have watched many hours of HDR and viewing extended portions of perhaps 10 movies (tough job I have 😊). I think the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping looks excellent and I see a visible improvement versus the Static Tone Mapping of earlier releases, especially for source material that incorrectly reports MaxCLL. I did not see any “less than optimal” decisions made by the Dynamic Tone Mapping in my viewing. So, I think this will be a good release to post for everyone to test.
> 
> Of course, there may be further improvement possible. Once you have the Dynamic Tone Mapping, if you see something you think might be improved, email lumagen.com support with the player/streamer model, movie/program and time stamp. Include a description of what you are seeing and what you think might be done to improve it. There is a chance we can improve the scene you point out. However, understand it might be intrinsic to dynamically calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> Dynamic Tone Mapping can change the effective MaxCLL on any frame, but it only makes sense to change it at the beginning of a scene. Changing it in the middle of the scene would cause a visible change in areas of the picture that should not be change during the scene. So, the Radiance Pro works by changing the effective MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.
> 
> You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel menu. Note: Dynamic Tone Mapping is disabled by default (at least for now). The menu looks like:
> 
> Enabled: No, Yes
> Level: 1 to 8
> For Input Current or All
> For Memory Current or All
> 
> As noted in the DynamicLevel menu you can press the “ALT” key while the menu is active if you want to show an abbreviated menu at the bottom of the screen, so it is out of the way for testing different “Level” values and off versus on. Press OK to get back to the normal menu screen.
> 
> The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.
> 
> We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> As always, if you have a bug report, please email lumagen.com support. Include as much information as you can (e.g. source device, movie/program, timestamp, how to reproduce, etc.). You can also post here if you wish, but we see bug reports emailed to us quickly and may not see bug report here for some time.



Wonderful news, looking forward to seeing the results. HDR tone mapping with the Lumagen Pro has been without a doubt the best single improvement in years for HT projectors .When I ugraded my Pro with HDR tone mapping I experienced for the very first time what HDR was supposed to be , nothing else available could match . That said I could still see many scenes that were not optimal, I expect this will address this area now that MasCLL and MaxFALL are going to adjust metadata on a per scene basis instead of the more broad approach provided with the first update. I expect these results to be nothing short of spectacular.



Without a doubt the tone mapping is a stand alone reason why the Lumagen is worth every penny , this was before the update, now you have improved even further. For the HT enthusiast wanting the very best HDR performance, there is no other option. This will be the second major improvement for HDR on my pro now a few years old . What other manufacturer does this, including the ability for upgrades to input/output cards as technology changes? Then there are all the other very important advanced features for precision calibration, screen size scaling......and the list goes on. Like I said, worth every penny .


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedesday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight) . . . .


Fantastic news Jim!

A couple of questions ahead of the release: 

1. How do our current IM settings affect the new Dynamic Tone Mapping. For example say we have Dynamic Tone mapping (I'll call it DTM for short) set to 8, and we have the switching point between the IM settings set at 2000. If one scene has a calculated MaxCLL of >2000, and the following scene has a calculated MaxCLL of


----------



## SJHT

OzHDHT said:


> I got the new 18ghz microcode going with no dramas at all on my RS4500.
> 
> 
> 
> On the calibration side, after deciding not to spend any more time with Chromapure, I bought CalMan to give it's autocal a go. However, in trying it both on my laptop and then later on my HTPC (both Windows 10), for the life of me I couldn't get it recognise the Lumagen in source find mode on either. Both can be easily used to connect the firmware updates and the correct com port is automatically identified however you end up with a connection error. It absolutely stumped me since Chromapure has absolutely no issue communicating with the Lumagen. To this end I may end up going back to Chromapure. I might have to post in the CalMan thread to see if there's any simple solutions but all of the standard PC troubleshooting efforts were of no help.


Make sure you change the delimiter in the Pro RS232 settings. I always have to do this with Calman as I control the Pro with RS232. Might not help in your setup, but something you can try. SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

*Dynamic Tone Mapping and media to test*



jrp said:


> Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight). I have tested the prerelease version and have watched many hours of HDR and viewing extended portions of perhaps 10 movies (tough job I have 😊). I think the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping looks excellent and I see a visible improvement versus the Static Tone Mapping of earlier releases, especially for source material that incorrectly reports MaxCLL. I did not see any “less than optimal” decisions made by the Dynamic Tone Mapping in my viewing. So, I think this will be a good release to post for everyone to test.
> 
> Of course, there may be further improvement possible. Once you have the Dynamic Tone Mapping, if you see something you think might be improved, email lumagen.com support with the player/streamer model, movie/program and time stamp. Include a description of what you are seeing and what you think might be done to improve it. There is a chance we can improve the scene you point out. However, understand it might be intrinsic to dynamically calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> Dynamic Tone Mapping can change the effective MaxCLL on any frame, but it only makes sense to change it at the beginning of a scene. Changing it in the middle of the scene would cause a visible change in areas of the picture that should not be change during the scene. So, the Radiance Pro works by changing the effective MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.
> 
> You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel menu. Note: Dynamic Tone Mapping is disabled by default (at least for now). The menu looks like:
> 
> Enabled: No, Yes
> Level: 1 to 8
> For Input Current or All
> For Memory Current or All
> 
> As noted in the DynamicLevel menu you can press the “ALT” key while the menu is active if you want to show an abbreviated menu at the bottom of the screen, so it is out of the way for testing different “Level” values and off versus on. Press OK to get back to the normal menu screen.
> 
> The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.
> 
> We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.
> 
> As always, if you have a bug report, please email lumagen.com support. Include as much information as you can (e.g. source device, movie/program, timestamp, how to reproduce, etc.). You can also post here if you wish, but we see bug reports emailed to us quickly and may not see bug report here for some time.


 @jrp 

In anticipation of today's Dynamic Tone Mapping firmware update, can you give us a list of examples of media to test with Static vs. Dynamic Tone Mapping?
That is, test cases of inaccurate MaxCLL and various scenes to observe differences and stress test the FW and settings?

Thanks.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

This is great news Jim.  Excellent timing for me too as I've mainly been using my Pro as a HDMI switch and for scope non-anamorphic lens scaling for the last 18 months or so.  I haven't got round to running a calibration yet, but been preparing for it recently as I hope the last bits of my room will be finished soon.

I've seen a few negative posts regarding Chromapure (ie people moving away from it for something else). I've never used anything else apart from the free HFCR back many years ago and I've already paid for the V3 upgrade. I figure I might as well use it and see how I get on, but never had issues in the past, perhaps the issues relate to 4K calibration? If anything I probably need a new/better sensor than my i1D3 anyway.

Perhaps some kind of list of base settings might be useful (added to the first post of this thread?) once people start using it and we find out answers to questions like Wookii and others have asked. In particular what we should be looking for when adjusting the IM settings (if they are still involved with DTM?).


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> We have seen a number of 1080 devices that have not written their EDID parsers with future changes in mind. One such device family is the DirecTV 1080 receivers. For these devices we have a manual Input Memory setting to reduce the EDID back to what they can process.
> 
> Note that generally audio is most affected by the EDID parser issue in these devices.
> 
> In the Radiance Pro MENU->Input->Option->HDMI Setup->Video EDID and change Video Limit to 1080p, press OK to accept and then do a Save.
> 
> In the cases we know about this has fixed DirecTV issues as well as issues in other 1080i/p devices.


Jim, so if we are using a DirecTV mini-Genie 4k (which outputs natively 720p, 1080i, 4k and 4k HLG (for HDR), I assume the above video EDID is not an issue?


----------



## Craig Peer

Great news about the Dynamic Tone Mapping ! Can't wait to download and implement this.


----------



## LJG

Fantastic news, just curious if Dynamic tone mapping will work with HLG? Can never get DTV4k mini too look good in HLG


----------



## Theaterfreak360

Hi guys. I seem to be having an issue with my Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 with two 18Ghz cards (four 18Ghz inputs), Xbox One X and JVC RS620. I get a lot of image drop off when it comes to HDR content. The HDR mode will kick in on the JVC, play for a few minutes and drop-off again, then the pattern repeats. 

The Xbox is in one of the 18Ghz slots. The cables from the projector to the Lumagen are Inneos fiber optic cables with fiber optic extenders. They work great with all other devices, but for some reason when it comes to the Xbox One X, I keep getting image drop off. The Lumagen settings seem to be correct. I, originally, had Ruipro cables in the setup, but found I was having issues with that cable, so I upgraded to Inneos cables and now have less issues with most devices, except for the Xbox One X.

The image drop off doesn't happen with the Oppo 203 bluray player and PS4 Pro. All are in 18Ghz inputs as well. I changed the settings on the Xbox from the 12 bit to 10 bit and the problem still exists. Is there anyone else who has experienced something similar and if so, were you able to get it resolved?

You know...I love my Lumagen. Wouldn't trade having one for the world! But man, I've been working hard to get over some real issues. One other issue I seem to have is playing "Billy Lynn's Halftime Long Walk" 4K HDR Bluray because of the 60FPS. When I plug my Oppo directly into the JVC projector, the video plays fine. However, going from the Oppo to the Lumagen to the JVC, it will not play. I made sure all Lumagen output settings are on 3860 x 2160 60FPS and the Mode is Auto 4. The Oppo settings are optimal as well. I'm, also, curious if any others with similar devices in their chain have experienced this as well or if the situation is unique to my setup?

Last thing, just in case anyone is wondering...I have the latest firmware update on the Lumagen also, which is Beta 112818.


----------



## SJHT

I don’t have my previous JVC, but it always seemed to work fine with my Xbox one x. My current settings are Xbox to 4K UHD, allow 4K, Allow HDR10, allow YCC 4:2:2. Display Auto-detect, color depth 10-bit, color space standard. Since I have a Sony now, not much more help. You may want to send a note to Lumagen Support as they have likely seen your combo before. SJ


----------



## DenverMDM

Theaterfreak360 said:


> Hi guys. I seem to be having an issue with my Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 with two 18Ghz cards (four 18Ghz inputs), Xbox One X and JVC RS620. I get a lot of image drop off when it comes to HDR content. The HDR mode will kick in on the JVC, play for a few minutes and drop-off again, then the pattern repeats.
> 
> The Xbox is in one of the 18Ghz slots. The cables from the projector to the Lumagen are Inneos fiber optic cables with fiber optic extenders. They work great with all other devices, but for some reason when it comes to the Xbox One X, I keep getting image drop off. The Lumagen settings seem to be correct. I, originally, had Ruipro cables in the setup, but found I was having issues with that cable, so I upgraded to Inneos cables and now have less issues with most devices, except for the Xbox One X.
> 
> The image drop off doesn't happen with the Oppo 203 bluray player and PS4 Pro. All are in 18Ghz inputs as well. I changed the settings on the Xbox from the 12 bit to 10 bit and the problem still exists. Is there anyone else who has experienced something similar and if so, were you able to get it resolved?
> 
> You know...I love my Lumagen. Wouldn't trade having one for the world! But man, I've been working hard to get over some real issues. One other issue I seem to have is playing "Billy Lynn's Halftime Long Walk" 4K HDR Bluray because of the 60FPS. When I plug my Oppo directly into the JVC projector, the video plays fine. However, going from the Oppo to the Lumagen to the JVC, it will not play. I made sure all Lumagen output settings are on 3860 x 2160 60FPS and the Mode is Auto 4. The Oppo settings are optimal as well. I'm, also, curious if any others with similar devices in their chain have experienced this as well or if the situation is unique to my setup?
> 
> Last thing, just in case anyone is wondering...I have the latest firmware update on the Lumagen also, which is Beta 112818.


This sounds like a cabling issue. Try other cables to be sure you don’t have a bad link


----------



## bearcat2017

Anticipation!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Dynamic tone mapping firmware upgrade is up and I've just loaded it into my Radiance Pro! WOW!

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## KarlKlammer

So far I only had time to make a few tests with one of my biggest HDR issues: Netflix (via Samsung K8500)
DareDevil, Jessica Jones or Punisher always looked dark with burned highights. And I didn't find settings that were convincing to me. 

With Dynamic Tone Mapping this looked very very promising! 
But of course I have to look further into it and also test some UHD Blurays.

But I noticed some stability issues with this firmware (old and new code for output card). Not every HDMI sync/handshake was successful (black picture or severely destroyed picture). A restart cured this. But here I also have to do some further tests.


----------



## jrp

*Dynamic Tone Mapping*

We have released 011119 with Dynamic Tone Mapping. You will note that the date of the release is not the same day as it is posted, but a somewhat inscrutable date Patrick comes up with.

Some comments based on questions:

The "Level" parameter is set by the user. We decided to use the same approach as is in the Static Tone Mapping to determine and equivalent value to replace the erroneous Metadata data from some sources. So we do not force it to 8 if the reported MaxCLL is = 0.

We do not expect you will change the "Level" once you settle on a value. The differences are small and I think 5 and 8 both look good.

The low parameter set (2500 nit) are used as reference points to the interpolation of the current transfer function that is based on the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. Some will leave these values the same and some may tweak them. I have not tweaked them for my testing and the default values the Pro sets at "Factory Reset" work well with Dynamic Tone Mapping. If you decide to tweak the low or high parameter set we suggest the source scene be dark when adjusting the low-set, and very bright when adjusting the high set. The changes are applied as you make the change in the menu.

The algorithms for detecting scene changes, and how the MaxCLL is changed, are proprietary.

HLG should work fine with Dynamic Tone Mapping since it uses the same hardware block and same dynamic MaxCLL calculation. However, I have not tested this yet. Note that for Static HLG Tone Mapping only the "low" (


----------



## jrp

Theaterfreak360 said:


> Hi guys. I seem to be having an issue with my Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 with two 18Ghz cards (four 18Ghz inputs), Xbox One X and JVC RS620. I get a lot of image drop off when it comes to HDR content. The HDR mode will kick in on the JVC, play for a few minutes and drop-off again, then the pattern repeats.
> 
> The Xbox is in one of the 18Ghz slots. The cables from the projector to the Lumagen are Inneos fiber optic cables with fiber optic extenders. They work great with all other devices, but for some reason when it comes to the Xbox One X, I keep getting image drop off. The Lumagen settings seem to be correct. I, originally, had Ruipro cables in the setup, but found I was having issues with that cable, so I upgraded to Inneos cables and now have less issues with most devices, except for the Xbox One X.
> 
> The image drop off doesn't happen with the Oppo 203 bluray player and PS4 Pro. All are in 18Ghz inputs as well. I changed the settings on the Xbox from the 12 bit to 10 bit and the problem still exists. Is there anyone else who has experienced something similar and if so, were you able to get it resolved?
> 
> You know...I love my Lumagen. Wouldn't trade having one for the world! But man, I've been working hard to get over some real issues. One other issue I seem to have is playing "Billy Lynn's Halftime Long Walk" 4K HDR Bluray because of the 60FPS. When I plug my Oppo directly into the JVC projector, the video plays fine. However, going from the Oppo to the Lumagen to the JVC, it will not play. I made sure all Lumagen output settings are on 3860 x 2160 60FPS and the Mode is Auto 4. The Oppo settings are optimal as well. I'm, also, curious if any others with similar devices in their chain have experienced this as well or if the situation is unique to my setup?
> 
> Last thing, just in case anyone is wondering...I have the latest firmware update on the Lumagen also, which is Beta 112818.


If you are having issues it is best to call us at 503-574-2211 Option 2 for support. As mentioned by someone else this is likely a HDMI cable issue (or at least an issue you need better cables for). There are also setup options that can sometimes help as well.


----------



## jrp

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Jim, so if we are using a DirecTV mini-Genie 4k (which outputs natively 720p, 1080i, 4k and 4k HLG (for HDR), I assume the above video EDID is not an issue?


We have only seen the EDID issue I mentioned with devices with a maximum output rate of 1080i or 1080p. 4k devices should not have this EDID issue since they should account for the changes needed in the EDID for 18 GHz.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 011119*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 011119*
Adds dynamic HDR tone mapping. 
Enable and adjust in the menu under *Input: Options: HDR Setup: DynamicLevel*. 
The Dynamic Level setting moderates between the amount of dynamic light levels of the video and the light level of the static HDMI metadata that are used. 
A higher Dynamic Level uses more dynamic information and less of the static metadata. 
Added "Image" option to auto aspect setting for situations where the "HDMI+Image" setting had problem with a source due to bad HDMI aspect information. 
Fix for the Colorspace HDR Flag setting when set to On which was not working with non-HDR sources. 
**Dynamic HDR is working well but we have one scene we're still working on so expect another version of this soon. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware -- if updating from 111718 or earlier, Pro takes extra minute on first power-up after update to bring up picture.


----------



## SJHT

Does dynamic HDR tone mapping add any video processing delays/lag to the signal? Also, what is the recommended settings to achieve the least lag in the Lumagen Pro for 4K HDR gaming sources? Thanks. SJ


----------



## thrang

Good first start for dynamic tone mapping - early impressions are it is a benefit for darker scenes, though I am seeing scenarios of slightly muted brightness and saturation in higher brightness scenes (though one might argue there is a bit more image detail with this) So pick your pleasure at the moment!

One scene to watch is in Blade Runner 2049, when K is walking through the bright orange exterior of Vegas, then moves inside to the dark stairwells/hallways/casinos. Turn it on off during those scenes.



















Not sure, perhaps the static tone mapping settings (using Kris' suggestions) need changing.


Lots of dials and parameters now!


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> One scene to watch is in Blade Runner 2049, when K is walking through the bright orange exterior of Vegas, then moves inside to the dark stairwells/hallways/casinos. *Turn it on off during those scenes.*


Why's that Greg? Can you clarify where you feel is DTM going wrong (so I can check myself when I get home tonight)? Does your comment relate to the two screen shots? Its hard to judge on my monitor, but the first one with it enabled looks better - or are you saying DTM is making them too dark?



thrang said:


> Lots of dials and parameters now!


Yes, I agree, there's almost too many now. My hope is Jim and Patrick can reach a point where we only have one set of IM parameters, rather than two sets above and below a fixed point - I would have thought that would give a smoother transition across the whole scale of scene ADL.

Edit: I'm surprised that DTM makes much of a difference on BR2049 given its very low MaxCLL.


----------



## Eventidal

Somehow I had hoped that Dynamic Tone Mapping would replace Intensity Mapping. Seems to be even more complex now...


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> Somehow I had hoped that Dynamic Tone Mapping would replace Intensity Mapping. Seems to be even more complex now...


You should think of dynamic tone mapping replacing the static metadata on the disc or streamed content with much more accurate dynamic metadata, rather than replacing IM - we still need some IM settings to tailor the tone map to the display.


----------



## Mike_WI

*User interface (UI) / User experience (UX)*



Wookii said:


> Why's that Greg? Can you clarify where you feel is DTM going wrong (so I can check myself when I get home tonight)? Does your comment relate to the two screen shots? Its hard to judge on my monitor, but the first one with it enabled looks better - or are you saying DTM is making them too dark?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree, there's almost too many now. My hope is Jim and Patrick can reach a point where we only have one set of IM parameters, rather than two sets above and below a fixed point - I would have thought that would give a smoother transition across the whole scale of scene ADL.
> 
> Edit: I'm surprised that DTM makes much of a difference on BR2049 given its very low MaxCLL.


I realize the Lumagen UI/UX hasn't been a priority but I think it would help even forum users like ourselves and would likely increase market for people expecting a certain interface look in AV gear now.


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Why's that Greg? Can you clarify where you feel is DTM going wrong (so I can check myself when I get home tonight)? Does your comment relate to the two screen shots? Its hard to judge on my monitor, but the first one with it enabled looks better - or are you saying DTM is making them too dark?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree, there's almost too many now. My hope is Jim and Patrick can reach a point where we only have one set of IM parameters, rather than two sets above and below a fixed point - I would have thought that would give a smoother transition across the whole scale of scene ADL.
> 
> Edit: I'm surprised that DTM makes much of a difference on BR2049 given its very low MaxCLL.


Well, lets not say its going wrong, as much as it behaves differently in low brightness vs. high brightness scenes (in BR2049 anyway, haven't had time to look at anything else). Its not "terrible" by any means...

In person, you see a bit of brightness reduction (the image is slightly "flatter") when viewing higher brightness scenes. In darker scenes, it helps reveal detail by lifting the image/apparent contrast.

As I watch more, I may find that is a rare anomaly, and I suspect, such feedback from all of us will help Lumagen as they tweak the algorithms going forward.


----------



## Wookii

Mike_WI said:


> I realize the Lumagen UI/UX hasn't been a priority but I think it would help even forum users like ourselves and would likely increase market for people expecting a certain interface look in AV gear now.


Well, yes, a web based GUI with tabbed sections (without needing to bring a menu up on screen) and firmware updates direct to the box from the Lumagen server would both be on my wish list for when future box replaces the Pro, but my comment that you quoted was more just relating to the current IM settings.

I would have thought, from my laymans perspective, that the system should be able to use one set of IM settings, and flex the curve accordingly for all scene/frame ADL levels, rather than requiring two sets of settings with a hard 'knee' in the middle.

I'd also like to see the main Display Max Light setting actually relate directly to a measurable value for peak brightness, rather than an arbitary value to help remove some of the guesswork on setting average HDR brightness levels.

Ideally we want to be deviating to a point where everyone is able to achieve a similar level of diffuse white, and a comparable ADL on the same scenes that don't contain bright highlights.

I don't know if any of the pro-calibrators such as Kris, Chad or Gordon have worked out a technique for determining a reference level of diffuse white, and maybe a test pattern than can be measured to reference it to, but it would seem logical to me that when numerous displays are calibrated so their tone mapping looks correct/similar, there should be a diffuse white pattern that measures relatively similar between them all?


----------



## Roland Janus

Wookii said:


> Well, yes, a web based GUI with tabbed sections (without needing to bring a menu up on screen) and firmware updates direct to the box from the Lumagen server would both be on my wish list for when future box replaces the Pro, but my comment that you quoted was more just relating to the current IM settings.
> 
> I would have thought, from my laymans perspective, that the system should be able to use one set of IM settings, and flex the curve accordingly for all scene/frame ADL levels, rather than requiring two sets of settings with a hard 'knee' in the middle.
> 
> I'd also like to see the main Display Max Light setting actually relate directly to a measurable value for peak brightness, rather than an arbitary value to help remove some of the guesswork on setting average HDR brightness levels.
> 
> Ideally we want to be deviating to a point where everyone is able to achieve a similar level of diffuse white, and a comparable ADL on the same scenes that don't contain bright highlights.
> 
> I don't know if any of the pro-calibrators such as Kris or Chad have worked out a technique for determining a reference level of diffuse white, and maybe a test pattern than can be measured to reference it to, but it would seem logical to me that when numerous displays are calibrated so their tone mapping looks correct/similar, there should be a diffuse white pattern that measures relatively similar between them all?



I'd like a new manual considering all that, currently this is all scattered across several, back and forth.
While adding those features is great, it makes something terrible complex even more complex and I'm already lost...

I wish someone could explain how to deal with all those choices from start to finish, but even best would be specifics for some devices (Sony 5000).


----------



## GerryWaz

A new UI with the help built in (with everything in the manual and constantly being updated as features are released or changed and the specific help for a setting accessible by that setting) would be optimal, IMVHO. 



I'm too old fashioned. Reading a manual and then having to sort through hundreds of forum posts for additional nuggets of wisdom is not my "favorite" thing to do.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Does dynamic HDR tone mapping add any video processing delays/lag to the signal? Also, what is the recommended settings to achieve the least lag in the Lumagen Pro for 4K HDR gaming sources? Thanks. SJ


Dynamic Tone Mapping does not increase the video delay through the Lumagen. 

Video delay is approximately 24 mS, plus up to one frame time, with Genlock off, and approximately a fixed 24 mS with Genlock enabled. Note that we recommend against Genlock for most systems since it does cause issues with some projectors and possibly some TVs. However, for gaming, to achieve the shortest video latency (and also consistent video latency) through the Radiance Pro, you can turn Genlock on, if it works with your TV or projector.

Note: If you enable Genlock, we recommend the output to the audio processor be set to "audio only" so the slight increase in output jitter with Genlock on does not increase the jitter for the audio output. The audio processor should still work with both audio and video enabled with Genlock on for the Radiance Out driving it, but jitter *might* affect sound quality.


----------



## jrp

GerryWaz said:


> A new UI with the help built in (with everything in the manual and constantly being updated as features are released or changed and the specific help for a setting accessible by that setting) would be optimal, IMVHO.
> 
> I'm too old fashioned. Reading a manual and then having to sort through hundreds of forum posts for additional nuggets of wisdom is not my "favorite" thing to do.


There is a help feature. When you are in a menu you want some hints on press the HELP button above and to right of the arrow keys. Most menus have a help message that will come up describing the current menu. Press HELP again to turn the help message off.

I have had *many* discussions on the UI with people saying what you said. Once the discussion is complete people have to admit given all the features of the Pro the PC menu-tree approach is the best and really only solution. We could "beautify" the menu with a proportional font and different colors, but that would not affect the functional layout and given we are always improving the function of the Radiance Pro we feel that takes precedence over any beautification of the menu.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Dynamic Tone Mapping does not increase the video delay through the Lumagen.
> 
> Video delay is approximately 24 mS, plus up to one frame time, with Genlock off, and approximately a fixed 24 mS with Genlock enabled. Note that we recommend against Genlock for most systems since it does cause issues with some projectors and possibly some TVs. However, for gaming, to achieve the shortest video latency (and also consistent video latency) through the Radiance Pro, you can turn Genlock on, if it works with your TV or projector.
> 
> Note: If you enable Genlock, we recommend the output to the audio processor be set to "audio only" so the slight increase in output jitter with Genlock on does not increase the jitter for the audio output. The audio processor should still work with both audio and video enabled with Genlock on for the Radiance Out driving it, but jitter *might* affect sound quality.


Doesn't running with genlock off mean you'll get occasional dropped or duplicate frames (from the manual)? I always try and run with it on, but it has been a sure source of HDMI nastiness in the past. How often can you expect a duplicate or dropped frame with genlock off?


----------



## thrang

Not sure if this is a bug or by design, but it appears Shape and Transition are disabled with DTM on.

You can adjust the values, but they impart no change on the image. Turning DTM off returns their function to normal.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> The low parameter set (2500 nit) are used as reference points to the interpolation of the current transfer function that is based on the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. Some will leave these values the same and some may tweak them. I have not tweaked them for my testing and the default values the Pro sets at "Factory Reset" work well with Dynamic Tone Mapping. If you decide to tweak the low or high parameter set we suggest the source scene be dark when adjusting the low-set, and very bright when adjusting the high set. The changes are applied as you make the change in the menu.
> 
> Hi Jim:
> 
> What are these recommended default values?


----------



## thrang

LJG said:


> jrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> The low parameter set (2500 nit) are used as reference points to the interpolation of the current transfer function that is based on the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. Some will leave these values the same and some may tweak them. I have not tweaked them for my testing and the default values the Pro sets at "Factory Reset" work well with Dynamic Tone Mapping. If you decide to tweak the low or high parameter set we suggest the source scene be dark when adjusting the low-set, and very bright when adjusting the high set. The changes are applied as you make the change in the menu.
> 
> Hi Jim:
> 
> What are these recommended default values?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even sure what he's referring to - the intensity mapping defaults? If so, as I just posted, the Shape and Transition (via left arrow pop up from a no OSD state) have no affect at the moment
Click to expand...


----------



## giomania

Roland Janus said:


> I'd like a new manual considering all that, currently this is all scattered across several, back and forth.
> While adding those features is great, it makes something terrible complex even more complex and I'm already lost...
> 
> I wish someone could explain how to deal with all those choices from start to finish, but even best would be specifics for some devices (Sony 5000).


I am updating mine now, Roland.


----------



## giomania

LJG said:


> jrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> The low parameter set (2500 nit) are used as reference points to the interpolation of the current transfer function that is based on the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. Some will leave these values the same and some may tweak them. I have not tweaked them for my testing and the default values the Pro sets at "Factory Reset" work well with Dynamic Tone Mapping. If you decide to tweak the low or high parameter set we suggest the source scene be dark when adjusting the low-set, and very bright when adjusting the high set. The changes are applied as you make the change in the menu.
> 
> Hi Jim:
> 
> What are these recommended default values?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thrang said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LJG said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even sure what he's referring to - the intensity mapping defaults? If so, as I just posted, the Shape and Transition (via left arrow pop up from a no OSD state) have no affect at the moment
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was thinking he may have been referring to the Crossover Pt., as it has two adjustments for '>' and '≤', but then as I read the description, I think maybe he is referring to "Transition"?.
> 
> 	Crossover Pt
> 	The Crossover Pt adjustments are intended to be adjusted with known source material to set the initial values. There are settings allowed for each Input and Input Memory.
> 	The command is: MENU → Input → Options → HDR Setup → Crossover Pt
> 
> 1)	MaxCLL > Crossover
> 2)	MaxCLL ≤ Crossover
> 
> 
> Transition	Range: 0 to 15 (default = 6 for ≤2500 nit sources and 10 for > 2500 nit sources)
> ▪	The Transition parameter controls the percentage of the range that HDR Intensity Mapping tries to match “nit for nit.”
> ▪	Reducing Transition, or increasing Shape, both have the effect of reducing the “nit for nit” range, so they are very interactive.
> ▪	Larger values increase nit-for-nit range and reduce range available for highlights.
> ▪	Suggested values are
> •	MaxCLL ≤ 2500: 6 to 8 (default is 6)
> •	MaxCLL > 2500: 8 to 13 (default is 10)
> ▪	Transition is the parameter most likely to change for different systems.
> •	It depends the TV or projector brightness and content.
> •	A 1500 nit TV will likely use a larger Transition value than an 80-nit projector.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## thrang

The Crossover point menu states *Not Used when Dynamic HDR is Enabled*...

So if the crossover is not used, does that imply the values set in less than/greater than are not used?

It’s not completely true, as gamma and black level impact the image. But shape, transition (and it appears hdsat) are not working

Oooohh it’s getting nice and gooey now...!


----------



## jrp

*Dynamic Tone Mapping*

I looked at Thang's posts and I have to say it looks like the Dynamic Tone Mapping is doing exactly what it should. You cannot expect the intensity to be the same since the intensity is matched to the actual scene instead of a "one size fits all frames" static number.

One potentially interesting side note on Blade Runner 2049: It reports MaxCLL = 182 nits, but MaxCLL is actually >480 nits. So using the reported MaxCLL having such a large error actually leads to an incorrect transfer function. This is exactly the type of case that pushed us forward on Dynamic Tone Mapping. That is bad metadata from the source.

You can certainly leave Tone Mapping in static mode if you want, but if you want *the most accurate* tone mapping using the dynamic is the way to go.

That said we will continue to work to make dynamic tone mapping better, but this scene is not one that is in any way wrong. I would say this is similar to the "yellow propane explosion" in Fury Road (28:29). Some like yellow flames, even though burnt orange is the correct dominant color.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> I looked at Thang's posts and I have to say it looks like the Dynamic Tone Mapping is doing exactly what it should. You cannot expect the intensity to be the same since the intensity is matched to the actual scene instead of a "one size fits all frames" static number.
> 
> One potentially interesting side note on Blade Runner 2049: It reports MaxCLL = 182 nits, but MaxCLL is actually >480 nits. So using the reported MaxCLL having such a large error actually leads to an incorrect transfer function. This is exactly the type of case that pushed us forward on Dynamic Tone Mapping. That is bad metadata from the source.
> 
> You can certainly leave Tone Mapping in static mode if you want, but if you want *the most accurate* tone mapping using the dynamic is the way to go.
> 
> That said we will continue to work to make dynamic tone mapping better, but this scene is not one that is in any way wrong. I would say this is similar to the "yellow propane explosion" in Fury Road (28:29). Some like yellow flames, even though burnt orange is the correct dominant color.


Could be Jim, will take a little time to look at various content and also objectively identify "brightness bias" in my mind

However, here is an example of something that's likely not right - again in a brighter scene - this is from Coco...look at the contrast/detail in the people stone and concrete pavers in the background:



















And should shape and transition feature still impact the image? Or are they disabled with DTM?


Thanks


----------



## giomania

thrang said:


> The Crossover point menu states *Not Used when Dynamic HDR is Enabled*...
> 
> So if the crossover is not used, does that imply the values set in less than/greater than are not used?
> 
> It’s not completely true, as gamma and black level impact the image. But shape, transition (and it appears hdsat) are not working
> 
> Oooohh it’s getting nice and gooey now...!


What about Transition?

Transition	Range: 0 to 15 (default = 6 for ≤2500 nit sources and 10 for > 2500 nit sources)
▪	The Transition parameter controls the percentage of the range that HDR Intensity Mapping tries to match “nit for nit.” 
▪	Reducing Transition, or increasing Shape, both have the effect of reducing the “nit for nit” range, so they are very interactive.
▪	Larger values increase nit-for-nit range and reduce range available for highlights.
▪	Suggested values are
•	*MaxCLL ≤ 2500: 6 to 8 (default is 6)
•	MaxCLL > 2500: 8 to 13 (default is 10)*
▪	Transition is the parameter most likely to change for different systems. 
•	It depends the TV or projector brightness and content. 
•	A 1500 nit TV will likely use a larger Transition value than an 80-nit projector.


----------



## thrang

On a positive note, a darker movie like "Ghost in the Shell" benefits much more consistently...


----------



## thrang

giomania said:


> What about Transition?
> 
> Transition	Range: 0 to 15 (default = 6 for ≤2500 nit sources and 10 for > 2500 nit sources)
> ▪	The Transition parameter controls the percentage of the range that HDR Intensity Mapping tries to match “nit for nit.”
> ▪	Reducing Transition, or increasing Shape, both have the effect of reducing the “nit for nit” range, so they are very interactive.
> ▪	Larger values increase nit-for-nit range and reduce range available for highlights.
> ▪	Suggested values are
> •	*MaxCLL ≤ 2500: 6 to 8 (default is 6)
> •	MaxCLL > 2500: 8 to 13 (default is 10)*
> ▪	Transition is the parameter most likely to change for different systems.
> •	It depends the TV or projector brightness and content.
> •	A 1500 nit TV will likely use a larger Transition value than an 80-nit projector.


As I've posted a few times, you can set transition and shape but the values have no affect on the image while DMT is enabled. At least for me...


----------



## stefanop

I tried Many 4K HDR Movies and I must say DTM for the dark scenes is a joy. As thrang reported, strange behavior is with high brightness scenes, because they tend to be a bit muted; If you switch DTM ON/OFF you can clearly see a brightness dimming/expanding.
My copy of BR2049 reports 457 as MaxCLL.
At the very beginning of Labyrinth (2:45 on) there are some jumps in overall scene brightness that are not nice to see.
For the rest this new DTM is a giant leap for videophiles


----------



## stefanop

thrang said:


> On a positive note, a darker movie like "Ghost in the Shell" benefits much more consistently...


I totally agree, I'm just watching it.


----------



## giomania

thrang said:


> As I've posted a few times, you can set transition and shape but the values have no affect on the image while DMT is enabled. At least for me...




So the question remains as to what Jim was referring to, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## thrang

giomania said:


> So the question remains as to what Jim was referring to, correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I interpret his post to mean the less than/greater crossover settings are part of the DMT calculations, but most of those settings aren’t working, so that would imply his statement is not right or needs clarification - or there is a bug, since changing values should have an impact on the image presentation when changed... which they don’t under DTM (shape and transition and possible HD Sat).


----------



## giomania

thrang said:


> I interpret his post to mean the less than/greater crossover settings are part of the DMT calculations, but most of those settings aren’t working, so that would imply his statement is not right or needs clarification - or there is a bug, since changing values should have an impact on the image presentation when changed... which they don’t under DTM (shape and transition and possible HD Sat).




Ok, so thinking through this: 

As I recall the crossover point is part of the initial (static) Tone Mapping Setup, and then Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) is disabled by default, so it could still be part of the equation? 

If that were the case, and you wanted to change the crossover point, and therefore the DTM transfer function(?), you could disable DTM, adjust the crossover point, and re-enable DTM.

Maybe...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## thrang

giomania said:


> Ok, so thinking through this:
> 
> As I recall the crossover point is part of the initial (static) Tone Mapping Setup, and then Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) is disabled by default, so it could still be part of the equation?
> 
> If that were the case, and you wanted to change the crossover point, and therefore the DTM transfer function(?), you could disable DTM, adjust the crossover point, and re-enable DTM.
> 
> Maybe...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It’s use wouldn’t be that convoluted... either it’s not meant to be used (and then I’m not really understanding Jim’s reference to the settings), or they’re intended to be used but there is a bug. I’m assuming the latter...


----------



## thrang

So it seems the values are used when the “greater than” IM settings are in use... I set Prometheus maxcll manually to 2100 (my crossover is 2000), and then the value changes for shape and transition impacted the image as expected even with DTM on.

When I set it to 2000 (or lower) the “less than” settings are in use but the value changes don’t do a thing.


----------



## thrang

So.... now I think I see how works, which is somewhat counter-intuitive based on how things were before...

With DTM, the "less than/greater than" settings than are now "Hi/Low", and both are in use at the same time, for the shadow/highlights - there in the same menu spot as the IM crossover settings, (which is an either/or utilization), so that where it was confusing.

I've also been very reliant in the left cursor arrow to call up the IM settings, so that's where I would typical change values, so I guess thats no longer useful or needs to be re-done to reflect hi-low (perhaps disable it when DTM is enabled to limit confusion?)

I guess I dont yet understand why it was using the old IM values from less than/greater than as I would think the setup would be different with DTM...

Jim, since I already had custom values in there for the old IM, what are the hi/low values you are defaulting to on a new setup? I'd like to plug those in and salt it from there....


----------



## DenverMDM

jrp said:


> We have released 011119 with Dynamic Tone Mapping. You will note that the date of the release is not the same day as it is posted, but a somewhat inscrutable date Patrick comes up with.
> 
> Some comments based on questions:
> 
> The "Level" parameter is set by the user. We decided to use the same approach as is in the Static Tone Mapping to determine and equivalent value to replace the erroneous Metadata data from some sources. So we do not force it to 8 if the reported MaxCLL is = 0.
> 
> We do not expect you will change the "Level" once you settle on a value. The differences are small and I think 5 and 8 both look good.
> 
> The low parameter set (2500 nit) are used as reference points to the interpolation of the current transfer function that is based on the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. Some will leave these values the same and some may tweak them. I have not tweaked them for my testing and the default values the Pro sets at "Factory Reset" work well with Dynamic Tone Mapping. If you decide to tweak the low or high parameter set we suggest the source scene be dark when adjusting the low-set, and very bright when adjusting the high set. The changes are applied as you make the change in the menu.
> 
> The algorithms for detecting scene changes, and how the MaxCLL is changed, are proprietary.
> 
> HLG should work fine with Dynamic Tone Mapping since it uses the same hardware block and same dynamic MaxCLL calculation. However, I have not tested this yet. Note that for Static HLG Tone Mapping only the "low" (


----------



## uderman

Now the dynamic tone mapping is out of the way, what’s next on the priority list?

What’s the current expected features list?


----------



## SJHT

Just watched Solo with Dynamic HDR level on 8. Wow. The beginning is really dark and MUCH improved with this. Switching back and forth between two memories to see the difference. Kris Deering also just finished calibrating my setup a few days ago. Just in time to try it out! SJ


----------



## darksets

I'm having a problem with adjusting the DynamicLevel settings. When I try to set the Level for All Inputs or All Memories by hitting the OK button, I get sent back and the settings only apply to the current input and current memory. Is anybody else having the same problem?


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> The Crossover point menu states *Not Used when Dynamic HDR is Enabled*...
> 
> So if the crossover is not used, does that imply the values set in less than/greater than are not used?
> 
> It’s not completely true, as gamma and black level impact the image. But shape, transition (and it appears hdsat) are not working


Thrang gave me a call and I understand what he is saying here. He said changing the HDR Mapping high set changed the image and changing the low set did not for Blade Runner 2049. I agree he was not seeing the changes he expected, but after we got off the phone I thought more about the math and why he was not seeing changes manipulating the low parameter set.

First let me confirm that the Crossover point is not used with Dynamic Tone Mapping. This is because the low and high set are blended based on the current MaxCLL for a frame as a percentage from the low set and the high set. This eliminates the need for a hard cut-off point between low and high sets.

===== 

For Blade Runner 2049, a large portion of most scenes fall in the "nit-for-nit" range. Because of this the Low-Set Shape and Transition have very little effect (confirming what Thrang saw). 

Now on to what for me is the interesting part. Since blade Runner 2049 has a low MaxCLL, for the Low Parameter Set a large amount of the material is in the "nit-for-nit" range. So, changes to Shape and Transition, even for Static Tone Mapping, are going to have a small effect as just mentioned. However, for the High Set of HDR Mapping parameters changing Shape and Transition can have a very large effect on the transfer function up to and including reducing the nit-for-nit range. This means changing the high set will have a larger effect than one might expect on low MaxCLL content, even though it's blend percentage is modest.

Here is an example: Thrang has a Sony VW5000ES, and Display Max Light is likely set to the 500 range (plus or minus). Consider a scene in Blade Runner with a MaxCLL of 200 or even 300. This falls in the range of what the Display Max Light says the projector can properly display. So in this case there is no Tone Mapping needed and the Low-Set Shape and Transition therefore really don't have anything they must change (Note that in the Tone Mapping equations for this type of scenario I did allow Shape and Transition the capability to make a small change "for personal preference" even though technically not needed). This is why they are not having a visible effect on the material in question as Thrang pointed out.


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> I'm having a problem with adjusting the DynamicLevel settings. When I try to set the Level for All Inputs or All Memories by hitting the OK button, I get sent back and the settings only apply to the current input and current memory. Is anybody else having the same problem?


If I understand your question: In the Dynamic HDR Level menu, select Yes to enable, down arrow, select the Level using left and right arrows, then down arrow to the "For Input" line and right arrow to select All for inputs, then down arrow to the "For Memory" line and right arrow to select All for Memory. Then Press OK. Make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.

This appears to work for me (I just checked one other input but I think that is sufficient).


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> Thrang gave me a call and I understand what he is saying here. He said changing the HDR Mapping high set changed the image and changing the low set did not for Blade Runner 2049. I agree he was not seeing the changes he expected, but after we got off the phone I thought more about the math and why he was not seeing changes manipulating the low parameter set.
> 
> First let me confirm that the Crossover point is not used with Dynamic Tone Mapping. This is because the low and high set are blended based on the current MaxCLL for a frame as a percentage from the low set and the high set. This eliminates the need for a hard cut-off point between low and high sets.
> 
> =====
> 
> For Blade Runner 2049, a large portion of most scenes fall in the "nit-for-nit" range. Because of this the Low-Set Shape and Transition have very little effect (confirming what Thrang saw).
> 
> Now on to what for me is the interesting part. Since blade Runner 2049 has a low MaxCLL, for the Low Parameter Set a large amount of the material is in the "nit-for-nit" range. So, changes to Shape and Transition, even for Static Tone Mapping, are going to have a small effect as just mentioned. However, for the High Set of HDR Mapping parameters changing Shape and Transition can have a very large effect on the transfer function up to and including reducing the nit-for-nit range. This means changing the high set will have a larger effect than one might expect on low MaxCLL content, even though it's blend percentage is modest.
> 
> Here is an example: Thrang has a Sony VW5000ES, and Display Max Light is likely set to the 500 range (plus or minus). Consider a scene in Blade Runner with a MaxCLL of 200 or even 300. This falls in the range of what the Display Max Light says the projector can properly display. So in this case there is no Tone Mapping needed and the Low-Set Shape and Transition therefore really don't have anything they must change (Note that in the Tone Mapping equations for this type of scenario I did allow Shape and Transition the capability to make a small change "for personal preference" even though technically not needed). This is why they are not having a visible effect on the material in question as Thrang pointed out.


Thanks jim - but to confirm what we also talked about, it seems there is a bug in the low values not being applied to the calculations regardless of which title I watch... I took a look at Prometheus, Alien Covenant, The Martian, Deadpool, and a few others, In no instances on a variety of scenes to the shape and transition values make a different for the low values - only high.

So that seems to be something that needs to be looked at as far as I can tell.

Thanks


----------



## thrang

Btw - I don’t want to come across as negative on dynamic tone mapping... it really is a great improvement overall...Jim and Patrick did some really good things here...


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> Now the dynamic tone mapping is out of the way, what’s next on the priority list?
> 
> What’s the current expected features list?


LOL ... that didn't take long 

First let me say Dynamic Tone Mapping is out but not complete. As good as I think it is already, I believe we will be tuning it for a while yet. However, there will likely be resource to work on other things.

There are three high priority items (assuming I am not forgetting anything):
- PiP/PoP (for 444X only)
- Some form of 4k image enhancement
- Pipeline precision enhancement to 12-bits, or more, for the entire pipeline

We have not decided yet, but I am leaning toward some form of edge enhancement for 4k sources (and lower resolutions as well of course) as the highest priority.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> If I understand your question: In the Dynamic HDR Level menu, select Yes to enable, down arrow, select the Level using left and right arrows, then down arrow to the "For Input" line and right arrow to select All for inputs, then down arrow to the "For Memory" line and right arrow to select All for Memory. Then Press OK. Make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.
> 
> This appears to work for me (I just checked one other input but I think that is sufficient).


Yes, when I select DynamicLevel I get the following:

Enabled : Yes
Level : 8
For Input : 1 All (1 selected)
For Memory : A All (A selected)

I press the down arrow and get to "For Input" and then right arrow to select All, then I press OK and the menu shrinks down to:

Enabled : Yes
Level : 8

the other options are gone and the selection is DynamicLevel. If I then press the OK button get back to:

Enabled : Yes
Level : 8
For Input : 1 All (1 selected)
For Memory : A All (A selected)

So my last selection is gone, there is no way to select All.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> Thanks jim - but to confirm what we also talked about, it seems there is a bug in the low values not being applied to the calculations regardless of which title I watch... I took a look at Prometheus, Alien Covenant, The Martian, Deadpool, and a few others, In no instances on a variety of scenes to the shape and transition values make a different for the low values - only high.
> 
> So that seems to be something that needs to be looked at as far as I can tell.
> 
> Thanks


Give me a call and I can further explain my last post. In a nut shell it explains why for low nit scenes you will not see changes when adjusting the Low-Set Shape or Transition using your VW5000ES with the Display Max Light in the 400 to 600 range. Even though this might not be intuitive it is as it should be.

[EDIT] Thrang called and it seems the frames he was looking at are bright enough that changing the Low-Set should have at least a minimal effect. So I am off thinking about why and seeing if there might be something we can improve in the interpolation percentage between low and high set. Since the High-Set change shows up, it might be the blend ratio is off.


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> Yes, when I select DynamicLevel I get the following:
> 
> Enabled : Yes
> Level : 8
> For Input : 1 All (1 selected)
> For Memory : A All (A selected)
> 
> I press the down arrow and get to "For Input" and then right arrow to select All, then I press OK and the menu shrinks down to:
> 
> Enabled : Yes
> Level : 8
> 
> the other options are gone and the selection is DynamicLevel. If I then press the OK button get back to:
> 
> Enabled : Yes
> Level : 8
> For Input : 1 All (1 selected)
> For Memory : A All (A selected)
> 
> So my last selection is gone, there is no way to select All.


Don't Press OK until after you set both All for Input and All for Memory.

When you press OK it "accepts" the changes, and only shows the current input, until you again go into the sub-menu once more by again pressing OK.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> Don't Press OK until after you set both All for Input and All for Memory.
> 
> When you press OK it "accepts" the changes, and only shows the current input, until you again go into the sub-menu once more by again pressing OK.


I did as you suggested but still same outcome. I select All "For Input" and "For Memory" and press OK. It sends me back to DynamicLevel with

Enabled : Yes
Level : 8

and nothing else. I save and exit the menu but when I get back to it I get the same old picture:

Enabled : Yes
Level : 8
For Input : 1 All (1 selected)
For Memory : A All (A selected)

Perhaps it's saved for all Inputs and Memories but that's not what it shows.


----------



## SJHT

I really would like to get PIP/POP! At least before the NFL fires up again.. love watching football and doing other things like playing Xbox. Lol. SJ


----------



## OzHDHT

SJHT said:


> Make sure you change the delimiter in the Pro RS232 settings. I always have to do this with Calman as I control the Pro with RS232. Might not help in your setup, but something you can try. SJ





Ok, that's a great tip potentially. Would never have stumbled across such a setting in relation to Calman. But as you you're doing it with RS232, so not quite sure of the effect on USB connection if any. Won't hurt to try it next time I have time to have look. Meanwhile the dynamic tonemapping beta is here


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> For Blade Runner 2049, a large portion of most scenes fall in the "nit-for-nit" range. Because of this the Low-Set Shape and Transition have very little effect (confirming what Thrang saw).
> 
> Now on to what for me is the interesting part. Since blade Runner 2049 has a low MaxCLL, for the Low Parameter Set a large amount of the material is in the "nit-for-nit" range. So, changes to Shape and Transition, even for Static Tone Mapping, are going to have a small effect as just mentioned. However, for the High Set of HDR Mapping parameters changing Shape and Transition can have a very large effect on the transfer function up to and including reducing the nit-for-nit range. This means changing the high set will have a larger effect than one might expect on low MaxCLL content, even though it's blend percentage is modest.
> 
> Here is an example: Thrang has a Sony VW5000ES, and Display Max Light is likely set to the 500 range (plus or minus). Consider a scene in Blade Runner with a MaxCLL of 200 or even 300. This falls in the range of what the Display Max Light says the projector can properly display. So in this case there is no Tone Mapping needed and the Low-Set Shape and Transition therefore really don't have anything they must change (Note that in the Tone Mapping equations for this type of scenario I did allow Shape and Transition the capability to make a small change "for personal preference" even though technically not needed). This is why they are not having a visible effect on the material in question as Thrang pointed out.


 Thank you for those insights, Jim.
Maybe this explains why I have found certain scenes that don't look so good. For example there is a scene at the very beginning of "The Martian" where the sun rises behind the dark shape of mars. The aura/halo around the sun looks ugly to me with DTM compared with IM. 
It reminds me a little of the beginning with IM. I also had some issues with highlights that were more or less solved by expanding the range of the IM parameters and finally the desaturation parameter. By the way, my Display Max Light is set to 700.
Is there an explanation why there are some instances where it seems like some parts of the picture are losing details? It's like the pictures thrang took earlier from coco.

Despite some issues, the start of DTM gets a definite "thumps up".
Dark scenes/movies benefit clearly ("Arrival" is another example). 
And the over all impact on Netflix streams is enormous.


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> I did as you suggested but still same outcome. I select All "For Input" and "For Memory" and press OK. It sends me back to DynamicLevel with
> 
> Enabled : Yes
> Level : 8
> 
> and nothing else. I save and exit the menu but when I get back to it I get the same old picture:
> 
> Enabled : Yes
> Level : 8
> For Input : 1 All (1 selected)
> For Memory : A All (A selected)
> 
> Perhaps it's saved for all Inputs and Memories but that's not what it shows.


I see the confusion.

This is a menu to set view and set one input memory's Level, but it allows you to send it "as a command" to all inputs and/or memories each time you enter the menu. It does *not* show the state of Level for all inputs and is not intended to. When you enter the command it assumes the change you make is only for the current input and memory until you tell it otherwise.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> I see the confusion.
> 
> This is a menu to set view and set one input memory's Level, but it allows you to send it "as a command" to all inputs and/or memories each time you enter the menu. It does *not* show the state of Level for all inputs and is not intended to. When you enter the command it assumes the change you make is only for the current input and memory until you tell it otherwise.


Maybe it shouldn't show the memory targets until you try and edit the values, which would make it clearer.


----------



## mhafner

jrp said:


> T
> Here is an example: Thrang has a Sony VW5000ES, and Display Max Light is likely set to the 500 range (plus or minus).


What's the point of using a value that is far above what the display can actually do? If that is supposed to make images brighter or whatever it's not the right way to do this. The algorithm must know exactly what the display can do and personal preferences for brighter with more clipping or darker with less/no clipping etc. would have to be in other parameters, no?


----------



## stefanop

mhafner said:


> What's the point of using a value that is far above what the display can actually do? If that is supposed to make images brighter or whatever it's not the right way to do this. The algorithm must know exactly what the display can do and personal preferences for brighter with more clipping or darker with less/no clipping etc. would have to be in other parameters, no?


I set 100, than I measured light output and set that value in less than parameters (65 nits) and 2x65 (130) in Greater than parameters and TM works very good to me. If I set 500 the image is dark like a cave.
There's no math just resulting picture to my eyes.


----------



## Eventidal

How do you calculate Display Max Light for a Projector? I had hoped to set all this once and there was no need to play with any other HDR parameters like transition (this really wrongs the picture easily in so many ways) etc. because dynamic tone mapping would be some sort of all automatic adjustment feature. It´s getting way too complicated.


----------



## Eventidal

Also if I remember correctly display max light is depending on HDR-SDR conversion or if you leave it on HDR.


----------



## KarlKlammer

I took LightSpace to model a curve that I replicated with the Radiance controls afterwards.


----------



## Wookii

I've always found the Display Max Light problematic for a projector, as it seems too arbitary, and a bit of a fudge for projectors.

I suspect for those people seeing a loss of detail in highlights (I've not had chance to do any testing myself yet), there is a disconnect between where they have set Display Max Light to get a correct average brightness level for the image, and as a result what the Dynamic Tone Mapping then assumes is the correct nit-for-nit range of the display, and the actual available nit-for-nit range of the display.

If you think about it logically, up to now with static IM settings, tone mapping has generally been based on a MaxCLL value higher than the majority of the scenes being viewed, so the proportion of the displays dynamic range reserved for the nit-for-nit range would be naturally lower, with a larger proportion of the displays range held over for tone mapping the highlights. 

With DTM the MaxCLL value used for those same scenes is now likely much lower, which could result in more of the displays range being reserved for nit-for-nit, and comparably less display range held over for tone mapping the highlights. As a result I suspect some users are seeing some highlight compression resulting is the loss of detail, as seen in Greg's Coco screen shots.

The question is can we fix it by reducing the DML setting, or will that still mess up the average image brightness during DTM. It almost feels like the Pro needs to account for the display being either a projector, or a flat panel.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I took LightSpace to model a curve that I replicated with the Radiance controls afterwards.


Lightspace's own controls on the matter are a bit arbitrary also, with a random-number generator "multiplier" to enter...

---

I'm an engineer myself, but it's hard not to think that if you have to give someone a ton of knobs to twiddle then the job probably isn't done yet... 
I'd love to see the controls rationalised, it will surely get to a point where there is just "insert PJ peak white level here" and assuming you have a 2.4 gamma display or LUT loaded you'd just get a "right" image. (though the other settings should persist I guess for folk who want to get the last drop out).

I think it is pretty good already though; my own inclination these days is to leave the tone mapping presets as is and just adjust the max light value. I can see for my PJ it looks like the max light needs setting to something like 4-5x the real light output of the projector to give a sensible image.

I spent some time watching last night and overall I thought it did a commendable job. The only thing I really noticed (which I need to go back and play with) was a couple of scenes where some elements took on a bit of a "milky" look, like they were being lifted / compressed somehow. I'll have to have a bit more of a play with a fresh set of eyes this evening.


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> I spent some time watching last night and overall I thought it did a commendable job. The only thing I really noticed (which I need to go back and play with) was *a couple of scenes where some elements took on a bit of a "milky" look*, like they were being lifted / compressed somehow. I'll have to have a bit more of a play with a fresh set of eyes this evening.


Was that on brighter or darker scenes James? What movies and time stamps?


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Lightspace's own controls on the matter are a bit arbitrary also, with a random-number generator "multiplier" to enter...


Sure, but you can always generate a LUT, upload it an see if the general brightness suits you.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Was that on brighter or darker scenes James? What movies and time stamps?


I saw an instance in Mad Max Fury Road, and another in Star Trek off Netflix. They were middling scenes where the overall brightness of the scene wasn't very high. I'll have a play again this evening. 

It wasn't content I was very familiar with (I'm not very familiar with any HDR really as the room is only really just starting to get used). Anyway, I'll try and get some timestamps later. It could totally be part of the content.


----------



## SJHT

Watched Overlord the other night and it looked fantastic with DTM. Kris Deering has done so much with the Sony 885 and Lumagen Pro that he factory reset my Pro and loaded his own configuration in as a starting point for the calibration he did earlier this week. The image although pretty good before is so much more crisp and clean now. It really pops with HDR. DTM is the icing on the cake.  Highly recommend him if you have any of these types of components! SJ


----------



## Roland Janus

Eventidal said:


> How do you calculate Display Max Light for a Projector? I had hoped to set all this once and there was no need to play with any other HDR parameters like transition (this really wrongs the picture easily in so many ways) etc. because dynamic tone mapping would be some sort of all automatic adjustment feature. It´s getting way too complicated.


I have the same question.
If there is no math then it's visual, so how to do it visually?


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Was that on brighter or darker scenes James? What movies and time stamps?


Netflix (from ATV4k) Star Trek Discovery S1 E2 19:26 is the first scene I noted it on. Philippa in the scene doesn't have great contrast as it is, but she gets a fair bit milkier / hazier with DTM on. But you do recover more detail in the lights strip top left with DTM on.

These are truly awful phone photos but they're surprisingly accurate for the general look of the scene.

I make no comment on what is right or wrong for this scene, other folk who have more experience with HDR content and access maybe to an HDR TV can maybe provide a better opinion on how it should look. For this scene I found it more pleasing with DTM disabled.


----------



## darksets

bobof said:


> I think it is pretty good already though; my own inclination these days is to leave the tone mapping presets as is and just adjust the max light value. I can see for my PJ it looks like the max light needs setting to something like 4-5x the real light output of the projector to give a sensible image.


Same here. I just leave all the defaults and only adjust the Display Max Light. The result is very satisfactory considering my projector's limitations.


----------



## darksets

Roland Janus said:


> I have the same question.
> If there is no math then it's visual, so how to do it visually?


I assume you have it set to SDR output. With only using the 100 increment it was easy for me. When I start with a low value like 200 the picture is too bright and washed out, as I keep increasing it gets darker but also gains contrast. Past a certain value it's too dark. I choose the highest number before the picture gets too dark. I imagine with 1 point increments it would be a lot harder to find the optimal value, that's probably best left to a professional calibrator.


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> Same here. I just leave all the defaults and only adjust the Display Max Light. The result is very satisfactory considering my projector's limitations.


Thing is, I don't have any frame of reference - I have no HDR TV. So I can make a reference colour correction LUT, no problem, and I can adjust the max light parameter easily enough to make the image look about right to the eye. But that is about it, I'm not going to start second guessing how this should look. 

My hope would be if you have a corrected LUT getting you to P3 2.4 that the default settings are good to go. If there are better settings to use depending on the display capabilites I'd hope that ultimately their selection could be automated depending on the max light setting. Or at least we could document that if your display is below X nits you should probably tweak them this way.  

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> Netflix (from ATV4k) Star Trek Discovery S1 E2 19:26 is the first scene I noted it on. Philippa in the scene doesn't have great contrast as it is, but she gets a fair bit milkier / hazier with DTM on. But you do recover more detail in the lights strip top left with DTM on.
> 
> These are truly awful phone photos but they're surprisingly accurate for the general look of the scene.
> 
> I make no comment on what is right or wrong for this scene, other folk who have more experience with HDR content and access maybe to an HDR TV can maybe provide a better opinion on how it should look. For this scene I found it more pleasing with DTM disabled.


CBS All Access including Star Trek: Discovery is broadcast only in HD.

https://www.pcmag.com/review/357316/cbs-all-access

So the streamer box (in my case, Apple TV 4k) does the upscaling. With latest firmware upgrade, Apple TV 4k can output various rates, including 4k and also 1080p HDR/no HDR, and can be set also to output native dynamic range (whether HDR or no HDR) and native refresh rate. When I watch native non-4k/HD programming I set Apple 4k TV to output "1080p HDR" with native dynamic range & refresh rate enabled and it outputs 1080p SDR and then the Radiance Pro does upscaling to 4k SDR. I find the picture is at its best this way in my setup. So absent HDR DTM does not operate.

Given that if you have HDR in your Star Trek: Discovery picture its HDR via streamer conversion, one can't put any importance on what the picture looks like as far as the Radiance Pro, as we should be concerned with true HDR, not HDR inserted by the streamer.


----------



## mikela

SJHT said:


> Watched Overlord the other night and it looked fantastic with DTM. Kris Deering has done so much with the Sony 885 and Lumagen Pro that he factory reset my Pro and loaded his own configuration in as a starting point for the calibration he did earlier this week. The image although pretty good before is so much more crisp and clean now. It really pops with HDR. DTM is the icing on the cake.  Highly recommend him if you have any of these types of components! SJ


Kris just calibrated my RS600 on Wednesday and it looks spectacular. He stopped by yesterday to check out DTM and we played a number of HDR torture tests movies. We both liked what we were seeing although I believe he wants to spend some more time with it when he returns home.


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> CBS All Access including Star Trek: Discovery is broadcast only in HD.
> 
> https://www.pcmag.com/review/357316/cbs-all-access
> 
> So the streamer box (in my case, Apple TV 4k) does the upscaling. With latest firmware upgrade, Apple TV 4k can output various rates, including 4k and also 1080p HDR/no HDR, and can be set also to output native dynamic range (whether HDR or no HDR) and native refresh rate. When I watch native non-4k/HD programming I set Apple 4k TV to output "1080p HDR" with native dynamic range & refresh rate enabled and it outputs 1080p SDR and then the Radiance Pro does upscaling to 4k SDR. I find the picture is at its best this way in my setup. So absent HDR DTM does not operate.
> 
> Given that if you have HDR in your Star Trek: Discovery picture its HDR via streamer conversion, one can't put any importance on what the picture looks like as far as the Radiance Pro, as we should be concerned with true HDR, not HDR inserted by the streamer.


Sorry but I think your thought process is flawed here. What CBS are showing it in is irrelevant.
The cinematic process for this content is listed at IMDB as Dolby Vision / HDR10.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5171438/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
Netflix only display programmes as HDR / DV which have been delivered to them as such.

If they're showing it as SDR HD at CBS it is because of choices they've made either in their platform or acquisition of rights for this content.

I should add; HD resolution only (1080p) does not preclude HDR colour / luminance.

Edit: as this is DV though, it does mean the ATV4K is "flattening' it to HDR10. I have another pure HDR10 Netflix player, I'll have a look at that and see how it behaves with the same scene.


----------



## A7mad78

I know it’s out of topic that trend now with DTM need some recommendations for hdmi cable 18gbps 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

I know it’s out of topic that trend now with DTM need some recommendations for hdmi cable 18gbps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> Sorry but I think your thought process is flawed here. What CBS are showing it in is irrelevant.
> The cinematic process for this content is listed at IMDB as Dolby Vision / HDR10.
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5171438/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
> Netflix only display programmes as HDR / DV which have been delivered to them as such.
> 
> If they're showing it as SDR HD at CBS it is because of choices they've made either in their platform or acquisition of rights for this content.
> 
> I should add; HD resolution only (1080p) does not preclude HDR colour / luminance.
> 
> Edit: as this is DV though, it does mean the ATV4K is "flattening' it to HDR10. I have another pure HDR10 Netflix player, I'll have a look at that and see how it behaves with the same scene.


Here in US Netflix doesn’t show Star Trek Discovery only available on CBS All Access which is HD only! In rest of world depends on whether the CBS feed in HD is provided to Netflix or whether the originally filmed show is provided to Netflix!


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Here in US Netflix doesn’t show Star Trek Discovery only available on CBS All Access which is HD only! In rest of world depends on whether the CBS feed in HD is provided to Netflix or whether the originally filmed show is provided to Netflix!


You should probably avoid talking about HD in this respect. HD can be 1080p with REC2020 WCG HDR colour and luminance. HDR does not have to come with 4K. There is quite a lot of 1080p HDR on Netflix.
Have a look here at this article that covers it in some detail (actually, in particular respect of this exact program):
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnar...-expects-you-to-pay-more-for-it/#757a20cf95cb


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

bobof said:


> You should probably avoid talking about HD in this respect. HD can be 1080p with REC2020 WCG HDR colour and luminance. HDR does not have to come with 4K. There is quite a lot of 1080p HDR on Netflix.
> Have a look here at this article that covers it in some detail (actually, in particular respect of this exact program):
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnar...-expects-you-to-pay-more-for-it/#757a20cf95cb


. It

I am well aware of the above.

Again, here in the U.S., CBS All Access provides Star Trek Discovery only in 1080i with no HDR, and its not available here in the US via Netflix.
I set my Apple TV 4k to output 1080p (won't do 1080i) for this show and let Radiance Pro upscale to 4k.

If one uses the Apple TV 4k streamer as I do, initially it converted everything to HDR and this would show up in what the Radiance Pro was receiving. Now as I stated in my above post you can set the streamer to native dynamic range so a show not in HDR will not be streamed in HDR.

Are you in the US, if so, then the show is 1080i with no HDR. If you are not in the US, then you receive the show however Netflix broadcasts it!

Do you have a streamer box which is set to take non-HDR and output as HDR? 

It could well be that outside the US you are receiving a 4k HDR stream natively, which would be nice!


----------



## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> . It
> 
> I am well aware of the above.
> 
> Again, here in the U.S., CBS All Access provides Star Trek Discovery only in 1080i with no HDR, and its not available here in the US via Netflix.
> I set my Apple TV 4k to output 1080p (won't do 1080i) for this show and let Radiance Pro upscale to 4k.
> 
> If one uses the Apple TV 4k streamer as I do, initially it converted everything to HDR and this would show up in what the Radiance Pro was receiving. Now as I stated in my above post you can set the streamer to native dynamic range so a show not in HDR will not be streamed in HDR.
> 
> Are you in the US, if so, then the show is 1080i with no HDR. If you are not in the US, then you receive the show however Netflix broadcasts it!
> 
> Do you have a streamer box which is set to take non-HDR and output as HDR?
> 
> It could well be that outside the US you are receiving a 4k HDR stream natively, which would be nice!


I'm in the UK, my ATV4K is set to output everything as originally received via Match Frame Rate / Match Dynamic Range. It is definitely received at the box as DV, and then converted to HDR10 and sent to the Lumagen. In any case, it's clearly not going to be a good example for folk in the States if this content isn't available on Netflix in the US in HDR10.

I noticed something similar in an HDR10 rip of Mad Max Fury Road, I'll just have to try and find the bit again. Looking at the image though I think you can see what is going on - it appears there might be a tradeoff of the mid levels to get more detail in highlights (maybe). Perhaps some tuning of the many parameters can improve this.

These scenes are by far in the minority though. When I enable DTM in other areas of the program (like when you can see the T'kuvma's armour in all it's glory) there is a glorious increase in the amount of detail and vibrancy of the spikes of his armour - it appears to come alive and become much more "dynamic"


----------



## Gordon Fraser

A7mad78 said:


> I know it’s out of topic that trend now with DTM need some recommendations for hdmi cable 18gbps
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



i use Belden FE Bonded pair cable 8ft. Available from bluejeanscables


----------



## giomania

OzHDHT said:


> I got the new 18ghz microcode going with no dramas at all on my RS4500.
> 
> 
> 
> On the calibration side, after deciding not to spend any more time with Chromapure, I bought CalMan to give it's autocal a go. However, in trying it both on my laptop and then later on my HTPC (both Windows 10), for the life of me I couldn't get it recognise the Lumagen in source find mode on either. Both can be easily used to connect the firmware updates and the correct com port is automatically identified however you end up with a connection error. It absolutely stumped me since Chromapure has absolutely no issue communicating with the Lumagen. To this end I may end up going back to Chromapure. I might have to post in the CalMan thread to see if there's any simple solutions but all of the standard PC troubleshooting efforts were of no help.





SJHT said:


> Make sure you change the delimiter in the Pro RS232 settings. I always have to do this with Calman as I control the Pro with RS232. Might not help in your setup, but something you can try. SJ





OzHDHT said:


> Ok, that's a great tip potentially. Would never have stumbled across such a setting in relation to Calman. But as you you're doing it with RS232, so not quite sure of the effect on USB connection if any. Won't hurt to try it next time I have time to have look. Meanwhile the dynamic tonemapping beta is here


As I get closer to actually running my first auto calibration, I am seeing some posts with reference of issues with ChromaPure. What are those issues?

Also, I am wondering if there is any appreciable difference in communication success or failures between these two connection options, which need to be around 30-40 feet:

A USB-A (Laptop end) to USB-B cable (Radiance end)

-or-

A USB-Serial / RS-232 Adapter (Laptop end) to Serial / RS-232 cable (Radiance end) 

Thanks for any input.

Mark


----------



## A7mad78

Gordon Fraser said:


> i use Belden FE Bonded pair cable 8ft. Available from bluejeanscables




Thx Gordon 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> As I get closer to actually running my first auto calibration, I am seeing some posts with reference of issues with ChromaPure. What are those issues?
> 
> Also, I am wondering if there is any appreciable difference in communication success or failures between these two connection options, which need to be around 30-40 feet:
> 
> A USB-A (Laptop end) to USB-B cable (Radiance end)
> 
> -or-
> 
> A USB-Serial / RS-232 Adapter (Laptop end) to Serial / RS-232 cable (Radiance end)
> 
> Thanks for any input.
> 
> Mark


USB at that length would have to be some kind of active solution; better going for a USB-RS232 adapter and making the long run RS232.


----------



## jrp

*Dynamic Tone Mapping*

Wow, we sure did stir up the hornet's nest. 

Here's an update.

- I checked with Patrick, and it turns out that that HLG does not yet support Dynamic Tone Mapping. We will implement HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping, but it might be a bit before we can get it in the code.

- Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.

- So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.

- I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.

- We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> Wow, we sure did stir up the hornet's nest.
> 
> Here's an update.
> 
> - I checked with Patrick, and it turns out that that HLG does not yet support Dynamic Tone Mapping. We will implement HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping, but it might be a bit before we can get it in the code.
> 
> - Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.
> 
> - So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.
> 
> - I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.
> 
> - We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the


----------



## KarlKlammer

KarlKlammer said:


> For example there is a scene at the very beginning of "The Martian" where the sun rises behind the dark shape of mars. The aura/halo around the sun looks ugly to me with DTM compared with IM.


 I just found out that DTM is not the reason behind this artifact. It happens when activating the dynamic iris that also manipulates the gamma. 
It seems to be an odd coincidence, that this doesn't happen with IM.


----------



## Roland Janus

darksets said:


> I assume you have it set to SDR output. With only using the 100 increment it was easy for me. When I start with a low value like 200 the picture is too bright and washed out, as I keep increasing it gets darker but also gains contrast. Past a certain value it's too dark. I choose the highest number before the picture gets too dark. I imagine with 1 point increments it would be a lot harder to find the optimal value, that's probably best left to a professional calibrator.


aehm no. Didn't get to the point doing that.

I noticed today (with HDR out) that I need to get closer to 800-1000 on the Sony 5000 or some lighter objects would just disappear.

I'm looking for something more repeatable then random content. Is there maybe a good scene where watching out for something specific would help determine that value?


----------



## darksets

Roland Janus said:


> aehm no. Didn't get to the point doing that.
> 
> I noticed today (with HDR out) that I need to get closer to 800-1000 on the Sony 5000 or some lighter objects would just disappear.
> 
> I'm looking for something more repeatable then random content. Is there maybe a good scene where watching out for something specific would help determine that value?


With HDR out Display Max Light settings are supposed to be in the 3000-9900 range. But even with a Sony 5000 you won't get a good picture with HDR out, you need to use SDR2020 output and then DML is supposed to be in the 200-600 range. I believe for your projector a good value is 400-500.


----------



## Htnut2000

darksets said:


> With HDR out Display Max Light settings are supposed to be in the 3000-9900 range. But even with a Sony 5000 you won't get a good picture with HDR out, you need to use SDR2020 output and then DML is supposed to be in the 200-600 range. I believe for your projector a good value is 400-500.



I am now totally confused by this post and some previous ones regarding Display Max Light.

I thought that Display Max Light should be set to the maximum nits that the display device can output. I have been measuring this from my projector, setting this in the menu and using the ratio to fine tune it according to content. 

I don't understand why one would set this value to be above the display device's capability. 

Is that not the main reason for tone mapping?

If I have misunderstood I would greatly appreciate being corrected


----------



## dlinsley

giomania said:


> As I get closer to actually running my first auto calibration, I am seeing some posts with reference of issues with ChromaPure. What are those issues?
> 
> Also, I am wondering if there is any appreciable difference in communication success or failures between these two connection options, which need to be around 30-40 feet:
> 
> A USB-A (Laptop end) to USB-B cable (Radiance end)
> 
> -or-
> 
> A USB-Serial / RS-232 Adapter (Laptop end) to Serial / RS-232 cable (Radiance end)
> 
> Thanks for any input.
> 
> Mark


I use this 36ft active USB A-B when calibrating: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W0BVTW/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It works without issue connecting my laptop or hub to the Radiance, and also between my laptop and hub.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Htnut2000 said:


> I thought that Display Max Light should be set to the maximum nits that the display device can output. I have been measuring this from my projector, setting this in the menu and using the ratio to fine tune it according to content.
> 
> I don't understand why one would set this value to be above the display device's capability.


This is what Jim wrote about Display Max Light some time ago:


jrp said:


> Display Max Light: For HDR in to SDR out, it is approximately the display Max Nit output. However, there is a multiplier for the screen size similar to the cosmological constant. That is a fudge factor to account for screen size. For HDR out, the Display Max Light is what the TV/projector is expecting. This is really 10000 nits for HDR10. However, if you turn down the “HDR slider” on the projector/TV, assuming there is one and assuming it works similar to the Sony 5000’s, you can drop the Display Max for HDR output down some. Note though that even if Display Max Light = 5000 nits is not too bright a setting, this only leaves a 2:1 ratio for HDR Intensity Mapping to work with and given roll off is needed you really can’t see much effect. So we are working on ways to do a 3D LUT that assumes a HDR EOTF but a maximum level of something more in the 1000 nit range to get a 10:1 ratio for the HDR Intensity Mapping to work with.


----------



## mhafner

jrp said:


> It is not possible to get perfect results for every scene using Dynamic Tone Mapping.


Just a terminology remark. No device so far can do automatic tone mapping based on scenes unless a human operator has input the scene starting and ending frames. It's all based on shots, the frames between edits/cuts. That alone is difficult enough since identifying a cut is not always straightforward (false positives and missed cuts). Reliable scene detection would require an AI approach. Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are very useful in this regard as the AI part can be done by humans understanding the content and desired esthetic effect, which remains elusive for programs for the forseeable future.


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> Just a terminology remark. *No device so far can do automatic tone mapping based on scenes unless a human operator has input the scene starting and ending frames.* It's all based on shots, the frames between edits/cuts. That alone is difficult enough since identifying a cut is not always straightforward (false positives and missed cuts). Reliable scene detection would require an AI approaches. Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are very useful in this regard as the AI part can be done by humans understanding the content and desired esthetic effect, which remains elusive for programs for the forseeable future.


I'm not sure what your definition of device is, but scene change detection is quite feasible with a pretty good success rate (embedded device suitable for live content) and very good (offline processing of movies before playout in a PC).


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> I think saying that having more controls means the job is not done ignores that different producers do things differently, and every person has their personal preferences. The only way to deal with this is enough controls to tune the image to personal taste and compensate for differences in the content. I don't get that people say there are too many controls when they do not have to use them since the default settings are extremely good.


We're all doomed in that case... 

It's as much a complaint about the general state of HDR playback as anything else, if we really do need a bank of sliders to optimize this stuff then so be it. Reality is though for me if it really is necessary to tweak movies on a per title basis, then with that big list of controls to fiddle it isn't going to happen, it just gets in the way of watching. I'm a design engineer by day, but allergic to doing anything other than pressing play to watch a movie - you know I've been trying to get all the auto aspect stuff up to scratch (which works great now!). 

It probably breaks down that if you get to the point where you have a correction LUT that gets to to correct 2.4 gamma for the projector, that the default settings work once you fiddle the max light parameter (they seem to work well for me) and all the user should really need to do is make some content dependent adjustment if they're watching a particularly "dark" or overly "bright" piece of content. Hopefully those kind of things could be available "out of the box" as useful presets that could be selected quickly, rather than having to interview different pieces of content to set it up, cursor up through various parameter values, which just seems like it shouldn't be really necessary to get to 95%.

The other thing that perhaps would help de-obfuscate the behaviour of the various controls would be showing a graphical representation of the tone curve as you adjust the settings.


----------



## Mark Burton

Great job on the dynamic tone mapping. However, my JVC is now switching to HDR mode whatever the signal is? I’ve had to switch the HDR flag off temporarily.

Anyone else noticed this?


----------



## thrang

Mark Burton said:


> Great job on the dynamic tone mapping. However, my JVC is now switching to HDR mode whatever the signal is? I’ve had to switch the HDR flag off temporarily.
> 
> Anyone else noticed this?


No


----------



## mhafner

bobof said:


> I'm not sure what your definition of device is, but scene change detection is quite feasible with a pretty good success rate (embedded device suitable for live content) and very good (offline processing of movies before playout in a PC).


A realtime device like Lumagen which can store only very few frames at the same time. Even for humans it can be unclear where a scene starts or ends when the normal editing conventions are not used.


----------



## darksets

Htnut2000 said:


> I am now totally confused by this post and some previous ones regarding Display Max Light.
> 
> I thought that Display Max Light should be set to the maximum nits that the display device can output. I have been measuring this from my projector, setting this in the menu and using the ratio to fine tune it according to content.
> 
> I don't understand why one would set this value to be above the display device's capability.
> 
> Is that not the main reason for tone mapping?
> 
> If I have misunderstood I would greatly appreciate being corrected


Whatever the name is, "Display Max Light" should not be interpreted literally. From the Radiance Pro manual:

"With HDR Intensity Mapping control parameters at default values, use the Display Max Light as a coarse 
"brightness" control. When outputting HDR source in HDR mode (CMS Colorspace = HDR2020 and Gamma to
3D LUT = HDR or Auto), typical Display Max Light settings range from about 3000 to 9900. For SDR output
mode (CMS Colorspace = SDR2020), typical Display Max Light settings are in the range of 200 to 600 for a
projector, or 200 to 800 for a current TV. The Display Max Light setting is higher for HDR output, because the
display's internal Tone Mapping is already reducing the HDR input to match the display's actual light output..."

With a projector, to get the best picture enable HDR Intensity Mapping by setting the colorspace to SDR2020:

MENU -> Output -> CMSs -> CMS1
Colorspace = SDR2020
HDR Mapping = On
Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR

and then set the Display Max Light between 200 and 600.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> Wow, we sure did stir up the hornet's nest.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an update.
> 
> 
> 
> - I checked with Patrick, and it turns out that that HLG does not yet support Dynamic Tone Mapping. We will implement HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping, but it might be a bit before we can get it in the code.
> 
> 
> 
> - Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.
> 
> 
> 
> - So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.
> 
> 
> 
> - I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.
> 
> 
> 
> - We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> A realtime device like Lumagen which can store only very few frames at the same time. Even for humans it can be unclear where a scene starts or ends when the normal editing conventions are not used.


Sure, I'm sceptical also, obviously you can't catch every scene single scene change, the question is can you catch enough significant scene changes to make significant improvement, while not getting false positives resulting in pumping. So far I've not seen any such pumping from the Lumagen - maybe it is quite conservative in detecting new scenes, which has to be the best option. I've definitely seen a general improvement in the presented images from playing with DTM so far.

Unfortunately at the moment we don't have any better option for our projection systems if we need to do this with live content. There is no dynamic metadata format with significant content availability that is open to us; DV availability is probably going to happen... never... for us, and it's unclear that HDR10+ is going to gain any traction (and HDR10+ doesn't mandate the human oversight you're hoping for, anyway). HDR10+ correctly implemented to the maximum spec has potential to solve everything for us and remove the need for DTM - I believe they could code something resembling the cinematic "EDR" map onto the retail HDR10+ content via an alternative extended display mapping metadata block with an appropriately set "target_max_PQ"
(https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/103500_103599/103572/01.01.01_60/ts_103572v010101p.pdf)
But seeing as plenty of companies are struggling to put ANY metadata on HDR10 content, unless the authoring process does this for them I'm not holding out much hope.

---
@jrp - I recall there is the potential in the Lumagen to have quite a substantial video delay (isn't it something like 6 frames max, which is pretty huge at 24p?) For folk who can tolerate the extra lag (ie not gamers) could there be any performance benefit to having a DTM mode which used the maximal amount of video buffers, giving a bigger horizon onto what is coming up?


----------



## Craig Peer

I've got the latest firmware loaded and tried the HDR Dynamic Intensity Mapping today. So far it looks really good. Another step up picture wise ! Watching the 4K Blu-ray "Overlord " tonight with it !


----------



## Craig Peer

I just watched Overlord on 4K Blu-ray tonight with 5 friends that had no clue what they were watching. They loved it ! What a great WWII / sci fi mashup ! The picture and sound are most definitely reference quality! Picture detail is amazing - one guest remarked on the way out how even the gravel and dirt looked so detailed and realistic. The Dynamic HDR Tone Mapping worked really well. I also have my RS4500 set on the less aggressive mode 1 laser dimming. I see zero artifacts, problems or stumbles. Great job Jim. It's easy to see what the dynamic tone mapping is doing using the Alt button and toggling it on and off. Now I need to re-watch John Wick 2 and Arrival ( to name two ).


----------



## Kerlucun

I wanted to test the HDR/SDR-Autoconvert functions and obtained the same results for HDR and SDR.
I thought I was getting a 2.4 gamma for SDR and I actually got a ST2084 PQ identical to the HDR.
Is it a Lumagen problem or a configuration error on my part?
Thank you for your help


----------



## loggeo

Tried it myself yesterday watching Justice league. I 've got mixed feelings. Overall it looks pretty good! At some cases there was a lot of clipping compared to (edit) static tone mapping but that resulted an overall brighter picture in the background. There was just no way that I could adjust the dynamic tone mapping level to come closer to my original static tone mapping settings.


----------



## jrp

*Dynamic Tone Mapping*

Someone asked for more details on Dynamic Tone Mapping. I think many would be interested and so am posting my answer here.

Similar to the human eye's iris constricting for bright conditions, or opening for dark conditions, Dynamic Tone Mapping works to maximize the image quality for every scene's brightness. Consider a 100 nit projector. The Radiance Pro dynamic Tone Mapping will change to use the 100 nit range for a 100 nit scene. Essentially this maps 0 to 100 nits scene source to 0 to 100 nits output, which in turn maximizes image quality. For a very bright scene to improve the bright content the Radiance Pro changes the transfer function so that the brightest object in the scene maps to 100 nits and then uses the Tone Mapping parameters to make the appropriate trade-offs for all other intensities from black to the brightest objects so as to maximize image quality.

The Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene changes, calculates the new scene's MaxCLL (brightest pixels), and then sets the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping transfer function based on this new MaxCLL for the entire scene. This task is significantly complicated by "scene fade in" and so there are many special cases to deal with. So please consider the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping a work in progress - even though it is working extremely well already.

Dynamic Tone Mapping then uses the scene's MaxCLL to interpolate between the Low-set of parameters (called 2500 nits parameter set in Static mode). So these parameter sets are still used. NOTE: With the current release (011119) the Low-set Shape and Transition do not have any visible effect. We are working on a change to the algorithm so they do have some effect. Should be in a released in the next week.

Note: For Dynamic Tone Mapping it does not make sense to change the MaxCLL on every frame. This would look bad. This is in part due to distracting changes in the background intensity that should not happen. So the Pro changes the MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.

The Dynamic Level control in MENU->Input->Option->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel ranges from 1 (the HDR10 Static Metadata has some effect on moderating changes to the dynamically calculated MaxCLL), to 8 (uses the calculated MaxCLL almost exclusively).

Please note that you may want to tune the HDR Mapping parameters while Dynamic Tone Mapping is on since there is some difference in the image from Static mode settings. We are still working on best practices for this. However, you should use a dark movie (such as Blade Runner 2049, once the next release is out so changes can be seen) for the low-set, and a bright movie (such as Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29) for the high-set, parameters.

Note that HLG is not yet implemented for Dynamic Tone Mapping.

If you have specific scenes that you believe we can improve please email lumagen.com support with the source device, the source original mode (HLG, HDR10, Dolby Vision even if converted to HDR10), the source's mode as sent to the Radiance Pro, the program/movie and timestamp.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> @jrp - I recall there is the potential in the Lumagen to have quite a substantial video delay (isn't it something like 6 frames max, which is pretty huge at 24p?) For folk who can tolerate the extra lag (ie not gamers) could there be any performance benefit to having a DTM mode which used the maximal amount of video buffers, giving a bigger horizon onto what is coming up?


Patrick is doing all the heuristics for scene detection and the special cases it creates. He says that the six frames of delay would *not* improve scene detection or the scene transition logic.


----------



## jrp

Kerlucun said:


> I wanted to test the HDR/SDR-Autoconvert functions and obtained the same results for HDR and SDR.
> I thought I was getting a 2.4 gamma for SDR and I actually got a ST2084 PQ identical to the HDR.
> Is it a Lumagen problem or a configuration error on my part?
> Thank you for your help


Your TV/projector, or if you do a 1D LUT calibration the calibration, determine the Gamma for SDR in to out. At default there is no Gamma change in the Pro for SDR in to out. For HDR "output in a SDR container" the Pro tone map assumes you have the projector/tv set to Gamma=2.4 or you did a LUT calibration to Gamma=2.4.

The procedure we recommend is to select your output format and any conversion and then do a calibration to the specified Gamma.


----------



## KarlKlammer

@jrp
It would be nice to see the current scene maxCLL in one of the info screens.


----------



## Kerlucun

@jrp
My idea was to use the SDR2020 conversion (pure math) and generate a 3dlut UHD Rec2020 of this configuration with Lightspace.
All that remained was to use the Dynamic Tone Mapping to complete the transformation.
But maybe it’s a bad idea.
Anyway by testing on my TV REC709 Gamma 2.4/2.5 the Autoconvert function I get the same result with HDR2020 and SDR2020,
same gamut, even 'Gamma' when I expected the SDR2020 Gamma to stay at 2.4/2.5, otherwise why have 2 functions (HDR2020 and SDR2020)?


----------



## Wookii

I had chance to have a play with the new Dynmaic Tone Mapping over the weekend, and I have to say I'm incredibly impressed! I've had high hopes for DTM since it was announced quite some time ago, but the improvement in image quality I'm seeing on HDR material is more than I'd hoped for.

I've tried a few different titles, including BR2049 and Coco (as they've been referenced by other in this thread already), Passengers, Ghost in the Shell, Underworld Blood Wars and a couple of scenes from both Oblivion and Mad Max.

Pretty much across the board the image becomes much more dynamic and punchy, with brighter highlights and greater gradation on dark areas, but particularly on those films with darker scenes - Passengers looked superb, and it made a huge difference to Underworld Blood Wars which is incredibly dark and 'crushed' in many scenes. DTM clearly adds greater gradation, and hence more apparent detail in darker scenes which produces more visual depth to the image - I guess I really hadn't appreciated just how much of the displays dynamic range was being left on the table with static tone mapping. Hats off to Jim and Patrick, they've done a terrific job with this update.

@Thang - I tried that scene in Coco that you showed screen shots for Greg, and no matter how I adjusted the DTM settings or DML, I couldn't replicate the loss of detail (in the stone etc) shown in your images. It might mean therefore that there is something else in your video chain, or calibration that is interacting with DTM in a way that doesn't happen in my set-up?


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> @jrp
> It would be nice to see the current scene maxCLL in one of the info screens.


For the initial Dynamic Tone Mapping release (011119) and later, we have updated the MENU 0532 debug command that previously allowed seeing pixels brighter than a set value blink red, or do profiling of the video, to now, in addition, show a live MaxCLL (and MaxY) calculation. Note that before using MENU 0532 degraded the image quality. This is no longer the case. You can use "Live" or "Profile" options of the MENU 0532 debug command without the image degrading.

Enter MENU 0532. The "live MaxCLL" display comes up. If you left/right arrow to the left column you can change the current debug function between the three options.

The "Filt" is how many pixels need to be above the reported level for it to be considered the MaxCLL. You can change the size of the filter area, but it seems you need to arrow away from the column for this, and then back, before it will allow the change. You change the kernel size with the up or down arrow.

The "MaxCLL" is the Pro's calculated MaxCLL for a single frame, and it reports about a frame per second.

The "MaxY" is the Pro's calculated maximum Luma value ("Y" which is the weighted R, G, B value) for a single frame which is the same frame, and same pixels, as the reported MaxCLL.

If the MaxCLL and MaxY are nearly the same, it means the brightest pixels are near the Gray Vector. If they are significantly different it means the pixels for the reported MaxCLL are more saturated.

I used this feature a lot when testing Dynamic Tone Mapping to judge the image brightness and then see if the Dynamic Tone Mapping decisions seemed reasonable.


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> For the initial Dynamic Tone Mapping release (011119) and later, we have updated the MENU 0532 debug command that previously allowed seeing pixels brighter than a set value blink red, or do profiling of the video, to now, in addition, show a live MaxCLL (and MaxY) calculation. Note that before using MENU 0532 degraded the image quality. This is no longer the case. You can use "Live" or "Profile" options of the MENU 0532 debug command without the image degrading.


 Thank you!
I also used Menu 0532 very often in the past to see if it was better to bypass maxCLL provided by the metadata. 
But I wasn't expecting the new live data also to be there.


----------



## cargen

Can the newly added Dynamic Tone Mapping of the Radiance Pro be used in conjunction with the tone mapping functions of the newest JVC projectors or does it have to be one or the other (but NOT both)?


----------



## rachmat-d

I have a question about Dynamic tone maping .
I have a SDR tO SDR AND HDR to HDR calibration.
Do i need to recalibrate to get Benefit dynamic tone mapping ?

Thx.


----------



## KarlKlammer

cargen said:


> Can the newly added Dynamic Tone Mapping of the Radiance Pro be used in conjunction with the tone mapping functions of the newest JVC projectors or does it have to be one or the other (but NOT both)?


 You can't combine them. 

I'm sure, I won't even try JVCs Auto Tone Mapping should my NX9 ever arrive.


----------



## Craig Peer

rachmat-d said:


> I have a question about Dynamic tone maping .
> I have a SDR tO SDR AND HDR to HDR calibration.
> Do i need to recalibrate to get Benefit dynamic tone mapping ?
> 
> Thx.


I've been pretty happy with my HDR calibration on my RS4500. Without doing anything else other than turning on the Dynamic HDR tone mapping, I see an improvement. I toggled it on and off with various scenes on several 4K Blu-rays. It looks better to me !!


----------



## SJHT

Watched the 4K HDR Aquaman (Strato) with some guests the other night. Looked great with DTM. I’m running it at 8. The image was just crystal clear with a lot of punch. There are various light and dark scenes in the movie which just looked great. Thanks to Kris Deering and the new DTM, I really can see the improvement. SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Watched the 4K HDR Aquaman (Strato) with some guests the other night. Looked great with DTM. I’m running it at 8. The image was just crystal clear with a lot of punch. There are various light and dark scenes in the movie which just looked great. Thanks to Kris Deering and the new DTM, I really can see the improvement. SJ


I'm running it at 8 too.


----------



## Wookii

Craig Peer said:


> I'm running it at 8 too.


Same here - no point in half measures.


----------



## Mike_WI

I downloaded FW Beta 011119 and thought I didn't activate the DTM.
However, I must have.
I didn't watch a 4K UHD, but I watched the Aliens blu ray with my kids.
I remember thinking how amazing it looked.
I later went back and found the DTM was on at level 5.

I could see a big difference with playing with scenes on the Ready Player One 4K UHD.
Great job so far team Lumagen!


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> I downloaded FW Beta 011119 and thought I didn't activate the DTM.
> However, I must have.
> I didn't watch a 4K UHD, but I watched the Aliens blu ray with my kids.
> I remember thinking how amazing it looked.
> I later went back and found the DTM was on at level 5.
> 
> I could see a big difference with playing with scenes on the Ready Player One 4K UHD.
> Great job so far team Lumagen!


It appears to be enabled by default instead of off like Jim's original message indicated; or at least it was on my unit, also (on at Level 5 after update).


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> I downloaded FW Beta 011119 and thought I didn't activate the DTM.
> However, I must have.
> I didn't watch a 4K UHD, but I watched the Aliens blu ray with my kids.
> I remember thinking how amazing it looked.
> I later went back and found the DTM was on at level 5.
> 
> I could see a big difference with playing with scenes on the Ready Player One 4K UHD.
> Great job so far team Lumagen!


If it shows enabled it’s just some GUI programming that needs a clean up... DTM is applicable for HDR sources only, so it would have had no affect on “Aliens” BR


----------



## Mike_WI

*DTM on/off*



thrang said:


> If it shows enabled it’s just some GUI programming that needs a clean up... DTM is applicable for HDR sources only, so it would have had no affect on “Aliens” BR


Ah!

Here is screen shot from menu info p.2


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> Ah!
> 
> Here is screen shot from menu info p.2


That looks wrong for a Blu Ray. Are you forcing your player to output HDR?


----------



## Mike_WI

thrang said:


> That looks wrong for a Blu Ray. Are you forcing your player to output HDR?


Actually that screen shot was before I played that BR, so two different circumstances. Sorry for confusion.

EDIT:
My display looks so much better after @SOWK came by and calibrated by eyeball.
I get a full professional gear-driven calibration on April 10 by @desertdome


----------



## thrang

Mike_WI said:


> Ah!
> 
> Here is screen shot from menu info p.2


What does your input screen look like?


----------



## Mike_WI

thrang said:


> What does your input screen look like?


I'm not at home, so will try to take new pics tonight if I can.
Thanks for query.
We setup the projector for two color spaces for BR or 4K UHD.
2020HDR is converted to 2020SDR


----------



## dlinsley

Has tonemapping always displayed SDH2020 in the debug menu, or is that recent? I'm sure it used to say SDR2020 and was just wondering if that was a bug or a new feature to indicate tonemapping is in play (without then looking at the input saying HDR2020).


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> Has tonemapping always displayed SDH2020 in the debug menu, or is that recent? I'm sure it used to say SDR2020 and was just wondering if that was a bug or a new feature to indicate tonemapping is in play (without then looking at the input saying HDR2020).


The "SDH2020" is short hand for SDR 2020 output but with the HDR flag enabled on the output. This is a special case features that works for *only* the JVC 4k projectors. These can use the HDR flag to switch memories , but still *not* do tone mapping. This allows the Pro to do the tone mapping but the projector to select a different memory with different settings (such as aperture or laser-level). 

I do not think any other projector manufacturer has this special case ability. So unless you have a JVC, for HDR sources you should set the CMS1->Colorspace to SDR2020 (or in some cases SDR709 or SDRP3) and make sure the HDR Flag is off in this menu. You can enable auto-convert in the Colorspace.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Dynamic HDR is on*



thrang said:


> What does your input screen look like?





Mike_WI said:


> I'm not at home, so will try to take new pics tonight if I can.
> Thanks for query.
> We setup the projector for two color spaces for BR or 4K UHD.
> 2020HDR is converted to 2020SDR


"Dynamic HDR is on" is shown (p. 2) for both 4K UHD and blur ray


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> The "SDH2020" is short hand for SDR 2020 output but with the HDR flag enabled on the output. This is a special case features that works for *only* the JVC 4k projectors. These can use the HDR flag to switch memories , but still *not* do tone mapping. This allows the Pro to do the tone mapping but the projector to select a different memory with different settings (such as aperture or laser-level).
> 
> I do not think any other projector manufacturer has this special case ability. So unless you have a JVC, for HDR sources you should set the CMS1->Colorspace to SDR2020 (or in some cases SDR709 or SDRP3) and make sure the HDR Flag is off in this menu. You can enable auto-convert in the Colorspace.


Thanks Jim, that's exactly what I'm doing  JVC RS3000 + HDR flag to switch presets. I'd not noticed before since I couldn't use it with the RS600 before, and just hadn't correlated enabling it with seeing the SDH pop up.


----------



## Kris Deering

cargen said:


> Can the newly added Dynamic Tone Mapping of the Radiance Pro be used in conjunction with the tone mapping functions of the newest JVC projectors or does it have to be one or the other (but NOT both)?


Technically yes, but the results would be better if you just used SDR2020 out instead of trying to overlap two tone maps. The only reason one might use HDR out with IM enabled is with a flat panel system.



rachmat-d said:


> I have a question about Dynamic tone maping .
> I have a SDR tO SDR AND HDR to HDR calibration.
> Do i need to recalibrate to get Benefit dynamic tone mapping ?
> 
> Thx.


No. The base calibration is exactly the same as before. The settings for the tone map will be different though because of the way the tone map is interpolated now.


----------



## Eventidal

Mike_WI said:


> "Dynamic HDR is on" is shown (p. 2) for both 4K UHD and blur ray


Did you enable colour space conversion for blu rays?


----------



## Mike_WI

Eventidal said:


> Did you enable colour space conversion for blu rays?


I manually switch color spaces in the JVC RS520 projector:
709 for BR
2020 for UHD


----------



## Eventidal

Are you sending an HDR flag? You might want to investigate your colour space and HDR settings...


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDR flag*



Eventidal said:


> Are you sending an HDR flag? You might want to investigate your colour space and HDR settings...


From Lumagen Menu info it looks like I am not (pics below)
eg 
BR: 444-SDR709 -> 422-SDR709
4K: 444-HDR2020 -> 422-SDR2020


----------



## Eventidal

Mike_WI said:


> From Lumagen Menu info it looks like I am not (pics below)
> eg
> BR: 444-SDR709 -> 422-SDR709
> 4K: 444-HDR2020 -> 422-SDR2020


Everything looks as it should.


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> I manually switch color spaces in the JVC RS520 projector:
> 709 for BR
> 2020 for UHD


With a raspberry PI and a bit of python (or pretty much any commercial RS232 / IP capable control system) it should be quite simple to detect the HDR source from the Lumagen and send an IP command to the projector to switch to whatever mode suits best. I'm about to extend the Python script I use for auto aspect control of my screen masking to do exactly that to my X7900 (because the HDR flag only allows you to choose a limited selection of colour profiles). Would it be useful to you?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Python script - HDR JVC*



bobof said:


> With a raspberry PI and a bit of python (or pretty much any commercial RS232 / IP capable control system) it should be quite simple to detect the HDR source from the Lumagen and send an IP command to the projector to switch to whatever mode suits best. I'm about to extend the Python script I use for auto aspect control of my screen masking to do exactly that to my X7900 (because the HDR flag only allows you to choose a limited selection of colour profiles). Would it be useful to you?


Not sure I understand how it works, but sounds interesting and likely useful to me and others.


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> Not sure I understand how it works, but sounds interesting and likely useful to me and others.


At the most basic level, the Lumagen can be made to send a message out on the serial port any time the input status changes (aspect ratio, resolution, refresh, HDR, etc). The JVC projectors can be controlled over a network, so a little script in the middle can see that the input has changed to HDR and switch the projector for you. 

I've already got the bit that talks to the Lumagen done, just need to add the JVC control stuff. If I can I'll try and pack it up in a way that is easy to use for folk who aren't familiar with this sort of thing.


----------



## Mike_WI

bobof said:


> At the most basic level, the Lumagen can be made to send a message out on the serial port any time the input status changes (aspect ratio, resolution, refresh, HDR, etc). The JVC projectors can be controlled over a network, so a little script in the middle can see that the input has changed to HDR and switch the projector for you.
> 
> I've already got the bit that talks to the Lumagen done, just need to add the JVC control stuff. If I can I'll try and pack it up in a way that is easy to use for folk who aren't familiar with this sort of thing.


Sounds good.
I even have the control wires pulled to my JVC. Just never used.
Could this also be done via the Lumagen alone?


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> Sounds good.
> I even have the control wires pulled to my JVC. Just never used.
> Could this also be done via the Lumagen alone?


Not without a fair bit of work by Lumagen, and even then it would be a little bit sub-optimal as it could only be over RS232 (so you'd need a huge serial lead to the projector, or serial over HDbaseT or similar).

They'd basically have to give the ability to send arbitrary control strings over the serial port on the back of some change happening. Of course setting these strings up would be torture if you had to do it via the remote control.

An external box to do it is a better and more flexible approach.

It is possible I believe to also do this with an HDFury Vertex, but that adds another HDMI device which has to be best avoided in what are already quite long chains.


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> Not without a fair bit of work by Lumagen, and even then it would be a little bit sub-optimal as it could only be over RS232 (so you'd need a huge serial lead to the projector, or serial over HDbaseT or similar).
> 
> 
> 
> They'd basically have to give the ability to send arbitrary control strings over the serial port on the back of some change happening. Of course setting these strings up would be torture if you had to do it via the remote control.
> 
> 
> 
> An external box to do it is a better and more flexible approach.
> 
> 
> 
> It is possible I believe to also do this with an HDFury Vertex, but that adds another HDMI device which has to be best avoided in what are already quite long chains.




Crestron driver can handle this I am not an expert in that but they made it for me possible and it change whatever source is to the right choice 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> With a raspberry PI and a bit of python (or pretty much any commercial RS232 / IP capable control system) it should be quite simple to detect the HDR source from the Lumagen and send an IP command to the projector to switch to whatever mode suits best. I'm about to extend the Python script I use for auto aspect control of my screen masking to do exactly that to my X7900 (because the HDR flag only allows you to choose a limited selection of colour profiles). Would it be useful to you?




So you are not only using the recommended SDR2020 or P3D65 (IIRC for P3 Matrix conversion) to send HDR in an SDR container to the projector?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> So you are not only using the recommended SDR2020 or P3D65 (IIRC for P3 Matrix conversion) to send HDR in an SDR container to the projector?


If you want to have different levels of peak white for SDR vs HDR then you have two choices, you either make a LUT to artificially limit peak white (which reduces your SDR contrast) or you switch the projector into a different mode with different iris and hence peak white. I have a P3D65 2.4gamma LUT for HDR, and a separate REC709 LUT for SDR. These are profiled against different user modes in the JVC with different peak white.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> If you want to have different levels of peak white for SDR vs HDR then you have two choices, you either make a LUT to artificially limit peak white (which reduces your SDR contrast) or you switch the projector into a different mode with different iris and hence peak white. I have a P3D65 2.4gamma LUT for HDR, and a separate REC709 LUT for SDR. These are profiled against different user modes in the JVC with different peak white.




Thank you. That makes sense. I thought the User modes in the JVC were not able to save different Iris settings? Or is it they can’t save filter on and filter off settings?

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Thank you. That makes sense. I thought the User modes in the JVC were not able to save different Iris settings? Or is it they can’t save filter on and filter off settings?


User modes can save iris settings fine, and also in a roundabout way filter settings (by setting the colour profile for the user mode to profiles with the filter enabled).

You can't enable the filter in a straightforward fashion though for the most linear Profile off mode (though there is a workaround using a special IR / IP control code).

HDR flag on X7900 can't select a user mode though, it can only select the HDR mode, which has limited colour profiles supported (and not the linear profile off mode), hence the reason for working around it using an external controller.

I think on the newer N5...NX9 range the HDR flag can be set to select other modes. Still no filter on / profile off mode though.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> It is possible I believe to also do this with an HDFury Vertex, but that adds another HDMI device which has to be best avoided in what are already quite long chains.


I was doing this with the Vertex to control my RS600, but took it out with the RS3000 as I thought I wasnt going to need it. However, my satellite TV receiver always outputs SDR in 2020 and will require me to add it back to keep things 100% automated.

If you have two HDMI cables you can solve the long chain issue. I left my previous cable installed when I added the RuiPro, and so have my old cable connected to a Lumagen 9G output and at the projector end it connects to the Vertex. The Vertex does not have it's HDMI output connected. The Lumagen will downconvert to 8bpp on the 9G output, while leaving the 18G output untouched, so that the Vertex still sees HDR, colorspace etc, and so can switch the JVC correctly.


----------



## jamesmil

FWIW, I have two different memory settings on my Epson LS10000. One for rec709 with the DCI filter disengaged and a reduced iris and laser light level and one for HDR/2020 with the filter engage and light power turned up.

I then use the Lumagen trigger out configured to change when a HDR input signal is active to automatically change between them. It works great.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> I was doing this with the Vertex to control my RS600, but took it out with the RS3000 as I thought I wasnt going to need it. However, my satellite TV receiver always outputs SDR in 2020 and will require me to add it back to keep things 100% automated.
> 
> If you have two HDMI cables you can solve the long chain issue. I left my previous cable installed when I added the RuiPro, and so have my old cable connected to a Lumagen 9G output and at the projector end it connects to the Vertex. The Vertex does not have it's HDMI output connected. The Lumagen will downconvert to 8bpp on the 9G output, while leaving the 18G output untouched, so that the Vertex still sees HDR, colorspace etc, and so can switch the JVC correctly.


Sounds like you've got a Lumagen with more than one output card? I've only got a 4242 with a single 18G video out and the 9G audio out (which doesn't carry the HDR signalling as far as I know). So I'd have to put it "in circuit" somewhere.



jamesmil said:


> FWIW, I have two different memory settings on my Epson LS10000. One for rec709 with the DCI filter disengaged and a reduced iris and laser light level and one for HDR/2020 with the filter engage and light power turned up.
> 
> I then use the Lumagen trigger out configured to change when a HDR input signal is active to automatically change between them. It works great.


Cool! How does that work - does the Epson have a trigger input that can choose different memories? (I couldn't see one?) Or are you feeding the trigger out to something else that sends a command to the Epson?


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've been thinking about how I'll be setting up my X7500 when I calibrate it for use with the DTM. I seem to remember that one difference from mine to the newer X7900 is that I can't use dynamic iris in HDR mode and I prefer to use it. So I wouldn't be able to use the SDH mode refered to earlier in this thread to automatically change my projector's mode.

I guess I'll just have to manually change the user mode in the X7500 depending what I'm going to watch (UHD or BD) first and the Lumagen will work out whether to use CMS0 or CMS1 accordingly?

Also, once I've calibrated for the SDR2020 mode and saved it to CMS1, I presume I can then change my projector setting and just calibrate CMS0 to my usual 2.2 gamma/rec709 for BD sources? 

Since I need 4 modes (SDR/rec709 for scope and 16:9 zoomed, plus SDR/rec202 for scope and 16:9 zoomed) I would do each calibration using CMS0, then copy it to another slot and set up that memory to select (for example) CMS2 for scope SDR/rec709 and CMS3 would be automatically selected when I play a UHD disc for scope SDR/rec2020.

So as a sanity check I plan to do the following:
MemA for 16:9 zooming, CMS0 for BD, CMS1 for UHD (DTM)
MemB for zoomed to scope, CMS2 for BD, CMS3 for UHD (DTM)
I'll need to set up and then manually select 4 User modes in the X7500 to match each of the above CMS#s.

Does this look right?


----------



## jamesmil

bobof said:


> Sounds like you've got a Lumagen with more than one output card? I've only got a 4242 with a single 18G video out and the 9G audio out (which doesn't carry the HDR signalling as far as I know). So I'd have to put it "in circuit" somewhere.
> 
> Cool! How does that work - does the Epson have a trigger input that can choose different memories? (I couldn't see one?) Or are you feeding the trigger out to something else that sends a command to the Epson?


In my case I'm using a URC remote controller, as it was already in place and it was very easy to use the trigger out as a signal for that. When it sees the signal change, it changes the memory position on the Epson. I'm sure there are other approaches that would work as well. Props again to Jim and Patrick, who added HDR trigger capability to the Radiance Pro at my request for this.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> Sounds like you've got a Lumagen with more than one output card? I've only got a 4242 with a single 18G video out and the 9G audio out (which doesn't carry the HDR signalling as far as I know). So I'd have to put it "in circuit" somewhere.


Sorry, yes it hadn't occurred to me to think of newer boxes which were 18G from the off. I bought my Pro in 2015 and then the 18G card when they came out ~ autumn 2016 IIRC.


----------



## SSnarski

What determines which Lumagen Radiance Pro that would be needed for Projection System - Might have to bite the bullet if i choose to buy an RS4500 JVC projector and purchase a Panamorph DCR Lens in lieu of the standard Paladin Lens, Using the std. Paladin lens would cause me to have to move the projector farther back in my room at his point 1.5'-2' farther - that is not going to happen at this point.


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## fatherom

Have a question about the new firmware. I just installed it. Before that, the High Luminance Desat param (and two other params) were split between above/below the maxcll threshold. Now, these three params are shared between the high/low tables.

That's fine, but before this new firmware, I had Desat set to 6 for >2500 and 0 for


----------



## rachmat-d

HI, in INFO Page 2 There are : Mastermin : .10000, Max : 1000 , MaxCLL : 927.
Can someone explain, what is the meaning of those number?

Should I set the MaxCLL to 900 in setting ?

Thx.


----------



## Wookii

fatherom said:


> Have a question about the new firmware. I just installed it. Before that, the High Luminance Desat param (and two other params) were split between above/below the maxcll threshold. Now, these three params are shared between the high/low tables.
> 
> That's fine, but before this new firmware, I had Desat set to 6 for >2500 and 0 for


----------



## Eventidal

Wookii said:


> I’d be interested to know what everyone else has settled on for the various DTM parameters?


I leave it on 8 all the time. Could not figure any difference, just like to believe it reacts faster...


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> I leave it on 8 all the time. Could not figure any difference, just like to believe it reacts faster...


Are you referring to Desat? If so, yes, I leave it on 8 also.

My query above though was what everyone else had decided on for all the other DTM parameters (shape, transition, ratio etc). I’ve currently just left those on default values.


----------



## gonzalc3

How does the dynamic hdr tone mapping compared to the one on Madvr? 
I am on the fence on buying either a lumagen radiance pro, a madvr envy, or build an HTPC. I am interested also on 3D LUT calibration.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fatherom

Have another question for those using dynamic tone mapping. I think what I'm seeing is related to it, and it's not a problem per se, mainly just want to see if others have seen it.

I was showing my daughter some clips from A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody, and going back and forth between the movie and the main menu. Whenever I hit 'menu' on the Oppo, and right when the main menu appears, there would be about 1 second (2 seconds, tops) of flickering/flashing...almost as if the dynamic tone mapping was trying to figure out how bright things should be. I also noticed it on the MPAA rating logo screen when we watched How to Train Your Dragon.

Have others experienced this?

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## darksets

Wookii said:


> I’d be interested to know what everyone else has settled on for the various DTM parameters? I’ve found they seem to have much less impact on the image than with IM, leading me to generally just settle on the defaults (plus a single click in the gamma setting).
> 
> I don’t know if the parameters will have more of an impact in future updates, but right now it feels more of a simple “on/off” option for DTM, with less need to worry if you haven’t got the image dialled in correctly.



I have all parameters on default with DTM level set to 8. Looks great.


----------



## DenverMDM

fatherom said:


> Have another question for those using dynamic tone mapping. I think what I'm seeing is related to it, and it's not a problem per se, mainly just want to see if others have seen it.
> 
> I was showing my daughter some clips from A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody, and going back and forth between the movie and the main menu. Whenever I hit 'menu' on the Oppo, and right when the main menu appears, there would be about 1 second (2 seconds, tops) of flickering/flashing...almost as if the dynamic tone mapping was trying to figure out how bright things should be. I also noticed it on the MPAA rating logo screen when we watched How to Train Your Dragon.
> 
> Have others experienced this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


I’ve noticed this on Oceans Eight. Seems like it’s more he transition from indoor to outdoor scenes


----------



## fatherom

I've never seen it (yet) in the midst of content. Only during the transitions of authored sections on the disc (like jumping to the main menu, or when the MPAA rating logo screen pops up)


----------



## Wookii

DenverMDM said:


> I’ve noticed this on Oceans Eight. Seems like it’s more he transition from indoor to outdoor scenes





fatherom said:


> I've never seen it (yet) in the midst of content. Only during the transitions of authored sections on the disc (like jumping to the main menu, or when the MPAA rating logo screen pops up)


Can’t say I’ve spotted this myself yet, but if you guys haven’t done so already, make sure you e-mail Jim and Patrick with the details (including time stamps if it’s mid-movie), so they can replicate it in their lab, and help them refine the DTM algo’s.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I had a play with DTM on my projector (X7500) last night. I'm still finishing some black velvet bits in my room, so haven't run a calibration yet, but was very impressed with how DTM worked it's magic with pretty much default settings. I've lowered the Max Light setting from 500 to 400 and increased the Dynamic HDR level to 6 from default of 5 and found the picture looked great, despite my test content being a particularly darkly shot series (Altered Carbon off Netflix, Sony X800 source). I'm waiting for some UHD discs to arrive, so will do more testing another day, hopefully after I've had chance to run a proper calibration first.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've noticed something odd using the built in test patterns and my Sony X800 UHD player:

If I have the X800 switched on, then look at the Reference test pattern for Contrast 1, the 96% and 104% bars are not visible, regardless of how low I set the display's contrast setting. Same applies in the Adjust test pattern.

This also applies if I use the Ref/w mode and set the test mode to: Rec2020/HDR ON/1080.50p/3D OFF/CMS1/Style 0 (I'm testing using my TV to save powering up my projector, but it also behaves the same way).

If I turn the X800 off, or change to the other input with my PVR on, then the 96% and 104% bars can be made visible by adjusting the display's contrast.

I even changed the output resolution of my X800 to 1080i (same as my PVR) as a test and the bars are still not visible if the X800 is on. The Sony shows as HDCP 2.2 and the PVR as HDCP 1.x in the Lumagen info page, so that is the only difference I can see. The PVR is YCbCr 4:4:4 only, but changing the Sony to the same instead of 4:2:2 makes no difference.

My CMS are all cleared at the moment ready for running an autocalibration sometime soon. I just want to get all the basics set right beforehand.

Not sure if it's a Sony issue, or whether I should just ignore the issue and adjust the display with the Sony switched off, using Ref/w mode set to the appropriate values?

Might be worth me contacting Lumagen I guess, just wondered if anyone else had seen this?


----------



## darksets

Kelvin1965S said:


> I've noticed something odd using the built in test patterns and my Sony X800 UHD player:
> 
> If I have the X800 switched on, then look at the Reference test pattern for Contrast 1, the 96% and 104% bars are not visible, regardless of how low I set the display's contrast setting. Same applies in the Adjust test pattern.
> 
> This also applies if I use the Ref/w mode and set the test mode to: Rec2020/HDR ON/1080.50p/3D OFF/CMS1/Style 0 (I'm testing using my TV to save powering up my projector, but it also behaves the same way).
> 
> If I turn the X800 off, or change to the other input with my PVR on, then the 96% and 104% bars can be made visible by adjusting the display's contrast.
> 
> I even changed the output resolution of my X800 to 1080i (same as my PVR) as a test and the bars are still not visible if the X800 is on. The Sony shows as HDCP 2.2 and the PVR as HDCP 1.x in the Lumagen info page, so that is the only difference I can see. The PVR is YCbCr 4:4:4 only, but changing the Sony to the same instead of 4:2:2 makes no difference.
> 
> My CMS are all cleared at the moment ready for running an autocalibration sometime soon. I just want to get all the basics set right beforehand.
> 
> Not sure if it's a Sony issue, or whether I should just ignore the issue and adjust the display with the Sony switched off, using Ref/w mode set to the appropriate values?
> 
> Might be worth me contacting Lumagen I guess, just wondered if anyone else had seen this?



It has been mentioned before that when you do a calibration you should switch the Lumagen to an inactive input. I'm not sure that's the issue you are having but it certainly won't hurt.


----------



## darksets

fatherom said:


> Have another question for those using dynamic tone mapping. I think what I'm seeing is related to it, and it's not a problem per se, mainly just want to see if others have seen it.
> 
> I was showing my daughter some clips from A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody, and going back and forth between the movie and the main menu. Whenever I hit 'menu' on the Oppo, and right when the main menu appears, there would be about 1 second (2 seconds, tops) of flickering/flashing...almost as if the dynamic tone mapping was trying to figure out how bright things should be. I also noticed it on the MPAA rating logo screen when we watched How to Train Your Dragon.
> 
> Have others experienced this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris



Is the menu on the Oppo HDR? I think it's SDR and the flickering could be related to changing input mode from HDR to SDR


----------



## Eventidal

Wookii said:


> Are you referring to Desat? If so, yes, I leave it on 8 also.
> 
> My query above though was what everyone else had decided on for all the other DTM parameters (shape, transition, ratio etc). I’ve currently just left those on default values.


Sorry if I was unprecise, I was talking about DTM. Always on 8.


----------



## fatherom

darksets said:


> Is the menu on the Oppo HDR? I think it's SDR and the flickering could be related to changing input mode from HDR to SDR


Actually, in my experience most 4K disc main menus are HDR.


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> Sorry if I was unprecise, I was talking about DTM. Always on 8.


Oh I see, yep, same here - I don’t really want the static metadata to have any influence on the result.

What do you (and others) have the other parameters set at though - i.e. ratio, shape and transition for low and high, and gamma/black for both? Default values or something else?

I have default values for ratio, shape and transition, Desat at 8, gamma at 1, and black at zero.


----------



## ShadeRF

I've been toying around with the DTM since the firmware and I kept noticing something weird watching Blade Runner 4k Final Cut. I use this disc to test changes I make as I'm very familiar with it and can quickly tell what kind of impact my changes have made. Anyways, I've noticed the beginning of Chapter 36 at 1:28:46 is incredibly dim with DTM enabled. Interestingly if I pause and toggle DTM off and back on the scene looks as I would expect. Can anyone else test and see if they are seeing this behavior? I'm using the default tone mapping settings with DTM at level 8 (though I tested with a default of 5 and saw the same experience). Sending SDR2020 to my JVC RS3000 with a 700 nit target.


----------



## stefanop

Wookii said:


> Oh I see, yep, same here - I don’t really want the static metadata to have any influence on the result.
> 
> What do you (and others) have the other parameters set at though - i.e. ratio, shape and transition for low and high, and gamma/black for both? Default values or something else?
> 
> I have default values for ratio, shape and transition, Desat at 8, gamma at 1, and black at zero.


SONY VW5000ES with built-in filter in position
LOW: Ratio=31 Shape=7 Trans=14 Desat=4 Gamma and Black default value
HIGH: Ratio=0 Shape=7 Trans=7 Desat=4 Gamma and Black default value (I edited because I wrote 14 instead of 7)
DTM Value=8
Max Luminosity=450

I set Trans to 14 because of a strange behaviour that is good to me: Upping Trans value normally increase image luminosity and high key values are burned but, with DTM at 14, you'll recover most of high key values and resulting image is more natural and "chemical".


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

Mike_WI said:


> *Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
> Press *Menu* then...
> 
> 
> 029 - 4k60 output mode
> 025 - 4k50 output mode
> 0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
> There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code.
> We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code.
> I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
> 0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
> 0532 - HDR "Profiler"
> Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
> 0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
> 0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware
> 0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
> Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
> 0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4.
> Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
> 0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
> Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
> 0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
> Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
> 0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
> 0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
> 0850 - switch to original firmware
> command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
> 0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
> command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
> 0860 - Darbee Off
> 0861 - Darbee On
> 0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
> 0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
> 0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
> 0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
> 0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
> 0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
> 0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
> 0910 - service mode
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
> 0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs
> 0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1).
> The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
> 0966 - command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off
> When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not
> 0997 - save to backup config location
> 0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)
> 
> 
> Other:
> Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.
> 
> Edits based on posts by: jrp, colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, bobof, et alia


 @Mike_WI : Thx for listing menu codes.  Any updates to list?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*



Carbon Ft Print said:


> @Mike_WI : Thx for listing menu codes.  Any updates to list?


Not sure if anything new.
Here is my current unofficial list...

*Lumagen Radiance Pro Codes*
Press Menu then...


029 - 4k60 output mode
025 - 4k50 output mode
0514 - re-initializes all the I/O boards
There was mention of the "MENU 0514" code to re-flash all I/O microcode. This code is intended as an internal Lumagen code. 
We recommend you do not use this code unless the update corrupted the I/O microcode in a way not detected by the power-on code. 
I recommend contacting Lumagen support if you think you need to use this code.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55232532
0529 - debug command to view last 32 characters received over RS232
0532 - HDR "Profiler" 
Command "Viewer" will show pixels above the "Linear Y" percentage (of 10000 nits) as red dots. It also reports the maximum for Red, Green, Blue for the frame
0533 - Override Max Mastering Level and MaxCLL
0536 - designates at the end of the last line - new (1) or original 18Ghz (0) output firmware 
0541 - toggle video enable to output 1 (for audio receivers not able to handle 4K)
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0546 - toggle audio enable on outputs 2-4. 
Temporary commands until more options are available in the menu.
0744 - relocate the output shrink & mask setting
Go into service mode (pressing "menu 0910") and then pressing "menu 0744"
0811 - set input HDCP to 1.X
Useful for some new 4K sources if you have an older HDCP 1.4 display
0821 - set input back to the default of HDCP 2.2
0827 - implement fixed zoom method from tech tip 16
0850 - switch to original firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0851 - switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware
command is "sticky" and unlike other commands you do not need to do a Save to make the selection of the new 18 GHz output microcode permanent
0853 - Display 18 GHz microcode status (didn't work after 112818 FW update)
0860 - Darbee Off
0861 - Darbee On 
0870 - Set default Auto output mode. This clears manual output overrides
0871 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 1080p50, 1080p60 based on input rate
0872 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate
0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0874 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
0876 - Set output as 2048x1080 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0877 - Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off
0910 - service mode
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...agen-radiance-pro-series-74.html#post55197494
0943 - enables common audio formats from all Pro inputs 
0944 - enables basic audio formats from all Pro inputs (2 channel PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1). 
The 0943 & 0944 commands are alternatives to feeding back the audio capabilities, aka audio EDID, from a device on output.
0966 - command to globally set letterbox zoom on or off (from 06-25-18 FW)
When letterbox zoom is 'on' the Pro fills to the height of the picture and when 'off' it does not
0997 - save to backup config location
0999 - Factory reset (do a Save afterwards to make it permanent)

Other:
Press "ALT" then "PREV" on the Pro Remote to do an HDMI resync on the output.

Edits based on posts by: jrp, colinp, KarlKlammer, & GerryWaz, bobof, et alia


----------



## bobof

Out of interest, is there an easy way to set all inputs to be scaled to 1080p but with correct frame rate? The only ways I can think of seem a bit tortuous and involve selecting each resolution / refresh and setting it to 1080p with correct frame rate.

I'd basically like to try to not have any eshift active in the projector but still receive the 4K HDR signal from streaming boxes and scale it down to 1080p in the Lumagen.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

You can set 'ALL 24p' to 1080/24p, then 'ALL 50p' to 1080/50p, etc quite quickly for a memory. It's quicker than selecting every possible input resolution/rate and setting to 1080/24/50/60. 

Not sure if that helps Bobof?


----------



## bobof

Kelvin1965S said:


> You can set 'ALL 24p' to 1080/24p, then 'ALL 50p' to 1080/50p, etc quite quickly for a memory. It's quicker than selecting every possible input resolution/rate and setting to 1080/24/50/60.
> 
> Not sure if that helps Bobof?


That will do I guess, not too onerous  . Thanks!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Tried Dynamic Tone Mapping yesterday, pictures better more bright and pop out, also no crushed blacks and black floor is not elevated, tried Sicario2 , AquaMen and some other titles, I use at setting 6, trans and other HDR settings remain untouched only the ratio level is changed for max nits. Will continue my testing and will let know for other titles.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Eventidal

I am still not able to set the pro to output 4:4:4 at 12 bit. I have 18 G cards for in - and outputs.

Has this feature not been implemented yet?


----------



## mskreis

Eventidal said:


> I am still not able to set the pro to output 4:4:4 at 12 bit. I have 18 G cards for in - and outputs.
> 
> 
> 
> Has this feature not been implemented yet?




It’s my understanding that the only way to output 4:4:4 is at 8 bit, due to the 18 G limitation. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mskreis

Eventidal said:


> I am still not able to set the pro to output 4:4:4 at 12 bit. I have 18 G cards for in - and outputs.
> 
> 
> 
> Has this feature not been implemented yet?



It’s my understanding that the only way to output 4:4:4 is at 8 bit, due to the 18 G limitation



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Eventidal

mskreis said:


> It’s my understanding that the only way to output 4:4:4 is at 8 bit, due to the 18 G limitation


While that is true for 4k60p, 18G cards allow to pass/process 4:4:4 12 bit at 4k24p. So ideally you could set presets for sat tv (which is 60p) to 8 bit and UHD blu ray to 12 bit at max quality. Other than Billy Lynn I have zero UHD movies which require 60hz playback..


----------



## giomania

Eventidal said:


> I leave it on 8 all the time. Could not figure any difference, just like to believe it reacts faster...


Too bad it doesn't go to 11.


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

Also found DTM "Enabled" upon download. Surprised it was enabled.


----------



## Kris Deering

Eventidal said:


> While that is true for 4k60p, 18G cards allow to pass/process 4:4:4 12 bit at 4k24p. So ideally you could set presets for sat tv (which is 60p) to 8 bit and UHD blu ray to 12 bit at max quality. Other than Billy Lynn I have zero UHD movies which require 60hz playback..


4:4:4 would just be padding. The Lumagen does all its processing and output at 4:2:2 and the output is 12 bit for any output resolution (including 4K60). The display will convert to 4:4:4 when it does its RGB conversion. Would not suggest you output 4:4:4 under any circumstance with the Radiance.


----------



## Eventidal

Kris Deering said:


> 4:4:4 would just be padding. The Lumagen does all its processing and output at 4:2:2 and the output is 12 bit for any output resolution (including 4K60). The display will convert to 4:4:4 when it does its RGB conversion. Would not suggest you output 4:4:4 under any circumstance with the Radiance.


Pretty much what Jim said. He mentioned that it is very unfortunate that many sources fail to support 4:2:2 12 bit since it would be always best ( I guess what HDMI 2.0 allows)

So now I am thinking of downgrading my 18G outputs back to 9G, then I will have my 2 video outputs back as 4:2:2 12 bit is supported with 24p playback for uhd blu ray. I will have faster sync times and simply set my sat tv (mainly sports) to 4:2:0.
Curious if I can leave my 60p sources on 4:2:2 and if the radiance will convert to 4:2:0 automatically.


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> Pretty much what Jim said. He mentioned that it is very unfortunate that many sources fail to support 4:2:2 12 bit since it would be always best ( I guess what HDMI 2.0 allows)


So now I am thinking of downgrading my 18G outputs back to 9G, then I will have my 2 video outputs back as 4:2:2 12 bit is supported with 24p playback for uhd blu ray. I will have faster sync times and simply set my sat tv (mainly sports) to 4:2:0.

You don't need to change the output cards (though they may well give faster sync times) - you can chose between 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 output in the Style menu, and allocate a specific 'Style' setting to 2160p/24 output in the Output configuration menu.



Eventidal said:


> Curious if I can leave my 60p sources on 4:2:2 and if the radiance will convert to 4:2:0 automatically.


You don't want the Radiance to subsample to 4:2:0 (I'm not even sure if it offers that as an output option). As Kris says, it currently processes internally at 4:2:2, so if you source is outputting 4:2:2, just set the Output Style to 4:2:2, then there will be no further chroma changes until inside the display.


----------



## Kris Deering

Eventidal said:


> Pretty much what Jim said. He mentioned that it is very unfortunate that many sources fail to support 4:2:2 12 bit since it would be always best ( I guess what HDMI 2.0 allows)
> 
> So now I am thinking of downgrading my 18G outputs back to 9G, then I will have my 2 video outputs back as 4:2:2 12 bit is supported with 24p playback for uhd blu ray. I will have faster sync times and simply set my sat tv (mainly sports) to 4:2:0.
> Curious if I can leave my 60p sources on 4:2:2 and if the radiance will convert to 4:2:0 automatically.


I don't understand this post. Why would you want to downgrade your outputs? You want to output 4:2:2 for all sources and resolutions, which requires the 18G outputs for 60p.


----------



## darksets

I know Lumagen doesn't support Dolby Vision but what happens exactly when playing a DV disc? I bought The Matrix 4k disc without realizing it's DV. When I played it, the Auto Aspect detection didn't work, I just got a small rectangle in the middle of my screen. So what is the image we get in this case, is it SDR? And why won't Auto Aspect work?


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I can't help with the auto aspect as I've never used it myself, but I was wondering if DTM effectively means that not having a DV player is moot now?

I have just received my copy of the Masicola HDR-10 UHD test disc. I want to try to understand 4K/UHD/HDR a bit more and figured the test disc might also help, plus to help me confirm some basic display settings. 

I saw that when playing a white clip test pattern that above around 3000 nits is clipping: No matter what I did in the display contrast, or in the Lumagen (even turning on and off DTM, display max settings, etc). I expected that by adjusting contrast (or some other settings in DTM) I would adjust the display so that 10,000 nits is the clipping point.

My question is; what should I be able to see in terms of maximum nits on this test pattern (it goes up to 10,000 nits)? What (if anything) should I change to enable being able to see higher than 3000 nits on this test pattern?

EDIT: I found that by using the player's picture controls I could reduce contrast by -4 and show up to 10,000 nits on this pattern. It had a knock on effect on the black clipping pattern though, so have set the player (Sony X800) back to 'Direct' rather than 'Custom 1 or 2'. I figure having the black clipping set optimally is more critical than worrying about clipping above 4000 nits. 
(Not that anyone is reading or responding ).


----------



## Eventidal

Kris Deering said:


> I don't understand this post. Why would you want to downgrade your outputs.


To have my two video outputs back. I do not see any advantage of keeping them 18 G. If I set the sat receiver at 8bit I can pass 4k60p without any problems.


----------



## dlinsley

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Tried Dynamic Tone Mapping yesterday, pictures better more bright and pop out, also no crushed blacks and black floor is not elevated, tried Sicario2 , AquaMen and some other titles, I use at setting 6, trans and other HDR settings remain untouched only the ratio level is changed for max nits. Will continue my testing and will let know for other titles.


Piling on. We are watching the Harry Potter films as my eldest gets through the books, and the graveyard fight near the end of Goblet of Fire was incredible! Searing intensity (with detail) in the bolts from the wands, while the rest of the picture still looked "correct". I haven't compared with DTM off, but so far I've just been impressed with everything we've thrown at it.


----------



## Eventidal

Wookii said:


> You don't need to change the output cards (though they may well give faster sync times) - you can chose between 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 output in the Style menu, and allocate a specific 'Style' setting to 2160p/24 output in the Output configuration menu.


You think the 18Ghz output card changes from 1 video and 1 audio out to a 2 video out 9Ghz card when set to 9Ghz in the menu?


----------



## Lynkage

*Lip Sync*

Please forgive me if this has been answered before.

So let's say I buy a 4 in 2 out (18Ghz) LRP, I feed all of my sources to the Pro and I have the unit set for 18 Ghz output and I feed the second, audio out to my prepro is there more lipsync to deal with? Maybe less? Prepro is not decided yet but will most likely be an 8805 or AVM 60.

Thanks for any help here or correct me if I do not understand this correctly.


----------



## OzHDHT

I finally got to load the beta tonemapping firmware last night. Found it really impressive off the bat with quite a few movies tested off the HTPC (no actual discs through the 9000 yet). Seems to be a great compliment to the 4500.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> I don't understand this post. Why would you want to downgrade your outputs? You want to output 4:2:2 for all sources and resolutions, which requires the 18G outputs for 60p.


Kris,

Please correct me if and where I may be wrong.

Right now nothing, except for one 4k blu ray Billy Lynn’s which is 60p (all others are 24p), uses 18 GHz unless you play Billy Lynn 4k or output Apple 4k TV stuff if you find something which is 4k 60p output and I haven’t found anything which is natively, and I have Apple set to output native dynamic range (HDR or no HDR) and native refresh rate (all 4k stuff seems to be 24p). 

Also, all satellite, cable, streaming boxes are recorded in 4:2:0. So take a 1080i tv show set out by Apple tv 4k at 4k 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 - - - if Radiance Pro is set to output 9 GHz the 4k video will be 4:2:0 and the projector will upsample to 4:4:4. If Radiance Pro is set to output 18 GHz the 4k video will be 4:4:4. That’s the only difference. And the picture itself won’t look any different. 4k Blu Rays except for Billy Lynn at 4k 24p 4:2:2 incoming to Radiance Pro and output to projector at 4k 24p 4:2;2 and the identical video and picture whether the Radiance Pro outputs 9 GHz or 18 GHz.

Now I see 2 potential benefits of 18 GHz output :

1. If you want Radiance Pro to output 4k 24p 4:2:2 4k blu rays at 4k 60p 4:4:4, but doing so makes the picture look too cartoonish, not like film. 

2. If you want Radiance Pro to output 4k 60p 4:2:2 for satellite/cable/streamer 1080i/720p HD programming which is 60p refresh rate, or streamer
4k 60p output even though if you set native with the Apple 4k TV it will output 24p. If you output 4k 60p, at 9 GHz, Radiance Pro will output 4:2:0 video, not 4:2:2 video, but projector will upsample internally to 4:4:4. With my Sony 5000ES projector, I have found no difference in picture quality either way.

What I have found is my Sony 5000ES, purchased Sept 2018, is funky funky on losing HDMI sync/picture too often with Radiance Pro set to use 18 GHz output, whereas using 9 Ghz output no sync or losing video issues at all!

Of course once the Radiance Pro has the 12 bit pipeline I'd luv to use it. But my projector doesn't seem to like it consistently. 

I didn't listen and got two 18 GHz output cards. Now I know why Jim Peterson recommended one 9 GHz and one 18 GHz output card . 

Is there any way to program one output at 9 GHz but the other output at 18 GHz when both output cards are 18 GHz?


----------



## Eventidal

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Is there any way to program one output at 9 GHz but the other output at 18 GHz when both output cards are 18 GHz?


Yes, go to menu - Output - Styles - Style 123... - HDMI Format - Type - Set to 9 Ghz.

Which means you have to program styles individually for 9Ghz output presets.


----------



## Kris Deering

Lynkage said:


> Please forgive me if this has been answered before.
> 
> So let's say I buy a 4 in 2 out (18Ghz) LRP, I feed all of my sources to the Pro and I have the unit set for 18 Ghz output and I feed the second, audio out to my prepro is there more lipsync to deal with? Maybe less? Prepro is not decided yet but will most likely be an 8805 or AVM 60.
> 
> Thanks for any help here or correct me if I do not understand this correctly.


Typically don't have to adjust for lip synch, but you should be able to with your pre-pro. I use an AVM60 and I don't need to compensate if I use the Radiance for switching. 



Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Kris,
> 
> Please correct me if and where I may be wrong.
> 
> Right now nothing, except for one 4k blu ray Billy Lynn’s which is 60p (all others are 24p), uses 18 GHz unless you play Billy Lynn 4k or output Apple 4k TV stuff if you find something which is 4k 60p output and I haven’t found anything which is natively, and I have Apple set to output native dynamic range (HDR or no HDR) and native refresh rate (all 4k stuff seems to be 24p).
> 
> Also, all satellite, cable, streaming boxes are recorded in 4:2:0. So take a 1080i tv show set out by Apple tv 4k at 4k 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 - - - if Radiance Pro is set to output 9 GHz the 4k video will be 4:2:0 and the projector will upsample to 4:4:4. If Radiance Pro is set to output 18 GHz the 4k video will be 4:4:4. That’s the only difference. And the picture itself won’t look any different. 4k Blu Rays except for Billy Lynn at 4k 24p 4:2:2 incoming to Radiance Pro and output to projector at 4k 24p 4:2;2 and the identical video and picture whether the Radiance Pro outputs 9 GHz or 18 GHz.
> 
> Now I see 2 potential benefits of 18 GHz output :
> 
> 1. If you want Radiance Pro to output 4k 24p 4:2:2 4k blu rays at 4k 60p 4:4:4, but doing so makes the picture look too cartoonish, not like film.
> 
> 2. If you want Radiance Pro to output 4k 60p 4:2:2 for satellite/cable/streamer 1080i/720p HD programming which is 60p refresh rate, or streamer
> 4k 60p output even though if you set native with the Apple 4k TV it will output 24p. If you output 4k 60p, at 9 GHz, Radiance Pro will output 4:2:0 video, not 4:2:2 video, but projector will upsample internally to 4:4:4. With my Sony 5000ES projector, I have found no difference in picture quality either way.
> 
> What I have found is my Sony 5000ES, purchased Sept 2018, is funky funky on losing HDMI sync/picture too often with Radiance Pro set to use 18 GHz output, whereas using 9 Ghz output no sync or losing video issues at all!
> 
> Of course once the Radiance Pro has the 12 bit pipeline I'd luv to use it. But my projector doesn't seem to like it consistently.
> 
> I didn't listen and got two 18 GHz output cards. Now I know why Jim Peterson recommended one 9 GHz and one 18 GHz output card .
> 
> Is there any way to program one output at 9 GHz but the other output at 18 GHz when both output cards are 18 GHz?


You should not be outputting 4:4:4 under any circumstance, just 4:2:2. This will be 12 bit for all sources and resolutions. If you revert to 9 Ghz you will be 4:2:0 for 60p out, the rest will still be 4:2:2. 

Not sure what to say on your projector situation specifically. I've calibrated a few 5000ES models with Radiance Pros and didn't have any synch issues as long as the cables were good. More often than not I find cable issues causing issues. But without specific troubleshooting of your system it is impossible to tell for sure. If switching to 9 Ghz output seems to give you consistent results I don't see much harm in using it.


----------



## Lynkage

Kris Deering said:


> Typically don't have to adjust for lip synch, but you should be able to with your pre-pro. I use an AVM60 and I don't need to compensate if I use the Radiance for switching.



Thank you for the information and reply Kris!


----------



## SJHT

I have a McIntosh MX160 and have to change lipsync for a few sources coming from the pro. I’ve built the commands into the switching macro for them.... SJ


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> You should not be outputting 4:4:4 under any circumstance, just 4:2:2. This will be 12 bit for all sources and resolutions. If you revert to 9 Ghz you will be 4:2:0 for 60p out, the rest will still be 4:2:2.
> 
> Not sure what to say on your projector situation specifically. I've calibrated a few 5000ES models with Radiance Pros and didn't have any synch issues as long as the cables were good. More often than not I find cable issues causing issues. But without specific troubleshooting of your system it is impossible to tell for sure. If switching to 9 Ghz output seems to give you consistent results I don't see much harm in using it.


Thanks.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Eventidal said:


> Yes, go to menu - Output - Styles - Style 123... - HDMI Format - Type - Set to 9 Ghz.
> 
> Which means you have to program styles individually for 9Ghz output presets.


Thanks


----------



## mhafner

Can one do dynamic tone mapping with HDR2020 out to a JVC projector (about 3 years old with the notorious gamma D), HDR flag on? I tried it with gamma D and it worked. It looked even comparable to using SDR out except it had banding problems at times. Is that expected? What if gamma D were replaced with a custom gamma curve from the Arve tool?


----------



## A7mad78

any news about what jim said about new FW should be out this week for the DTM ?


another matter what’s the differences in pic quality between the old 18gbps microcode and newer? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## darksets

A7mad78 said:


> any news about what jim said about new FW should be out this week for the DTM ?
> 
> 
> another matter what’s the differences in pic quality between the old 18gbps microcode and newer?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't think the microcode makes any difference in picture quality. Sync times and handshaking issues maybe affected but not video or audio quality.


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

Does RP support vertical image compression for anamorphic lens? Need it for UHD 60Hz with JVC RS600. Searched the User's Manual and can't find it. If so, what cmds? Thx.

Saw this from jrp (post 3619):

"The Radiance Pro setup for a fixed anamorphic lens is just to set the output aspect ratio to the screen aspect ratio and use the Radiance Pro's "Output Shrink" feature (MENU.Output.Styles.Style0.Mask/Shrink.Shrink) to fit the image to the screen if needed. Make sure to do a Save after any changes you want to make permanent."


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Tech Tip 7 on this page 



http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

I have DirecTV, and an Apple TV 4k and Roku 4k (which since I got the Apple TV 4k I don't bother with anymore). 

With DirecTV, I have video set to output native 1080i and 720p for HD (and 4k for 4k video).

With Apple TV 4k, it can't be set to 1080i for 1080i sources, only 1080p. I find 1080i HD programming looks better outputting to Radiance Pro at 1080p and then having either Radiance Pro or projector do the upscaling to 4k for my Sony VW5000ES projector.

To my knowlege although the Radiance Pro can reinterlace 480p to 480i (a longstanding feature for years for Lumagen video prcoessors), that the Radiance Pro cannot reinterlace 1080i from 1080p. I think it should.

For example, here in the U.S, you can only get Star Trek Discovery on CBS All Access and its broadcast here in US only in HD. I find it looks appreciably better in my setup setting the Apple TV 4k to output 1080p rather than the Apple box upscaling to 4k. HBO and Showtime programs which are 1080i for my DirecTV do not look as good streaming at 1080p!

I wish Lumagen would implement this. Streaming boxes have a lot of HD programming and cannot be set to output 1080i, only 1080p (and 4k, etc).


----------



## Eventidal

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> To my knowlege although the Radiance Pro can reinterlace 480p to 480i (a longstanding feature for years for Lumagen video prcoessors), that the Radiance Pro cannot reinterlace 1080i from 1080p. I think it should.


There has been quite a huge firmware on deinterlacing, I think it was this one: "Beta 020118- Deinterlacing much improved..."
I do not recall wether 1080i reinterlacing was implemented as well, if not give Patrick a shot.


----------



## Eventidal

What drives me personally still crazy is, that the Darbee cannot be used on 4k sources when outputting 1080p due to the fact that it is at the front of the signal processing chain. if it was moved to the end it would work no problem. To this very day I do not understand why Lumagen made this decision. I wished I could use the Darbee and the Reality Creation of my projector at the same time.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Eventidal said:


> What drives me personally still crazy is, that the Darbee cannot be used on 4k sources when outputting 1080p due to the fact that it is at the front of the signal processing chain. if it was moved to the end it would work no problem. To this very day I do not understand why Lumagen made this decision. I wished I could use the Darbee and the Reality Creation of my projector at the same time.


I assume that Darbee, before he passed away, developed his process for 2k HD only, not for 4k. http://www.darbeevision.com/ only shows a 2k HD product.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Eventidal said:


> There has been quite a huge firmware on deinterlacing, I think it was this one: "Beta 020118- Deinterlacing much improved..."
> I do not recall wether 1080i reinterlacing was implemented as well, if not give Patrick a shot.


Thanks, but that was deinterlacing, not reinterlacing!


----------



## Eventidal

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I assume that Darbee, before he passed away, developed his process for 2k HD only, not for 4k. http://www.darbeevision.com/ only shows a 2k HD product.


I am talking about outputting 1080p. If the Darbee was moved to the end of the signal chain then the radiance could output 4k sources (i.e. sources that ouptut 4k but are mainly only HD content (sports/netflix etc) with Darbee processing.

For example my sky satellite receiver is set to 4k because some content is 4k, mainly sports. But it´s a very annoying procedure to set the resolution each time to 1080p and it also does not record 4k content when set to 1080p.


----------



## Eventidal

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Thanks, but that was deinterlacing, not reinterlacing!


Did you take a look? I think it was both!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Eventidal said:


> Did you take a look? I think it was both!


Yes I looked! Reinterlacing was not mentioned. Did you look?


----------



## Eventidal

Haha, good one! I just recalled there were settings... 

Take a look at page 21 of the manual!

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_030618.pdf

True, no 1080p sources...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mani and I, both with Radiance Pros and Sony VW5000ES projectors, got into a discussion that sometime back, we recall that someone here at AVS Forum
mentioned that per Sony engineers, the projector won’t display accurate 2020 color space unless it sees HDR2020 input. Both of our setups were done with the Radiance Pro doing the HDR tone mapping and outputting SDR2020 to our projectors, and if my memory is any good I think I was then told then the calibrator was able to expand the color of SDR2020 to a wider range. Is this the best way to tone map HDR in our setup, or is there a better way? Our video looks awful darn good already! Thanks.


----------



## netroamer

*New Radiance Pro Microcode and the VW5000*

I also posted this in the Sony VW5000 forum. Has anyone been able to get the 5000 to display a raster loading the new microcode after the 011119 update? I will get audio from output 1 of the Pro but no picture on the 5000 from either 2 0r 4. A reboot to the old code sets everything to normal. Am I missing some specific way of performing the change?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

netroamer said:


> I also posted this in the Sony VW5000 forum. Has anyone been able to get the 5000 to display a raster loading the new microcode after the 011119 update? I will get audio from output 1 of the Pro but no picture on the 5000 from either 2 0r 4. A reboot to the old code sets everything to normal. Am I missing some specific way of performing the change?


I have played with the old and new microcode. At times I have had the new microcode working for a bit but then I change source and too often blanks 
out. I'm done with the new microcode, it sucks with my 5000. I am using the old microcode forever and happy doing so.


----------



## Craig Peer

The more I use the new dynamic HDR tone mapping, the more I like it. Watched parts of John Wick 2 and GOTG2 - lots of scenes just look so much better with it. Now I want to re-watch lots of 4K HDR movies I have to just to see how much better they look !


----------



## steelman1991

Craig Peer said:


> The more I use the new dynamic HDR tone mapping, the more I like it. Watched parts of John Wick 2 and GOTG2 - lots of scenes just look so much better with it. Now I want to re-watch lots of 4K HDR movies I have to just to see how much better they look !



Agreed. Just downloaded last night and it's made a huge difference to my set-up. The whole colour palette seems to have opened up. Wonderful addition, well done Lumagen team.


----------



## Wookii

Craig Peer said:


> The more I use the new dynamic HDR tone mapping, the more I like it. Watched parts of John Wick 2 and GOTG2 - lots of scenes just look so much better with it. Now I want to re-watch lots of 4K HDR movies I have to just to see how much better they look !


Agreed, I re-watched the most recent Tomb Raider film last night, and it looked simply stunning, the dynamic range now present in some of the cave scenes and elsewhere was superb. It's also one of the cleanest and sharpest films I've seen, and the Atmos track is one of the most engaging also. Having Alicia Vikander rendered in such HDR clarity doesn't hurt either!


----------



## Eventidal

While I think the new tonemapping works well, much better than just intensity mapping before, I can clearly still see lots of problems in very bright scenes.


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> While I think the new tonemapping works well, much better than just intensity mapping before, I can clearly still see lots of problems in very bright scenes.


Do you have some examples? I've one seen a clear issue of highlights being blown out in one film so far.


----------



## Eventidal

I was watching Skysraper the other night and while it is quite a "dark" movie, some bright scenes were so blown out that I had to reduce the contrast to find details which then made it look quite dull in comparison. 

It seems there is still a tradeoff with HDR on projectors (and tonemapping....) But never say never, looking forward to DTM Mk2


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> I was watching Skysraper the other night and while it is quite a "dark" movie, some bright scenes were so blown out that I had to reduce the contrast to find details which then made it look quite dull in comparison.
> 
> It seems there is still a tradeoff with HDR on projectors (and tonemapping....) But never say never, looking forward to DTM Mk2


Do you have specific time stamps though, then I can check on my set-up - it might be useful to see if everyone sees the same issues to eliminate set-up issues elsewhere in the chain.


----------



## Eventidal

Wookii said:


> Do you have specific time stamps though, then I can check on my set-up - it might be useful to see if everyone sees the same issues to eliminate set-up issues elsewhere in the chain.


True, I will try to check tonight!


----------



## Craig Peer

Eventidal said:


> I was watching Skysraper the other night and while it is quite a "dark" movie, some bright scenes were so blown out that I had to reduce the contrast to find details which then made it look quite dull in comparison.
> 
> It seems there is still a tradeoff with HDR on projectors (and tonemapping....) But never say never, looking forward to DTM Mk2


I needed to make some adjustments to my gamma settings for HDR. I like a really bright picture and have been using my HDR settings in a brighter calibrated setting. I find I don't need to use the same settings with the dynamic tone mapping - I can use a darker setting and it looks better overall. " Kingsman - The Secret Service " on 4K UHD Blu-ray caused the same issue - that's a really bright disc to begin with. Even using the darker HDR settings it's just as bright in the brighter scenes and way better looking in those difficult for projectors dark scenes than before. So you might need to adjust or re-calibrate your settings now. 


At this point I'm really hoping to get Kris Deering down to my theater for a total re-calibration with dynamic HDR tone mapping in the mix.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've noticed some 'pulsing' on brighter scenes when watching Sicario 2 last weekend. However I haven't done a proper calibration on my projector yet (JVC X7500), just a basic contrast/brightness and 2 point greyscale in the projector itself. I also use DI (auto 2) so it may have been the cause. I did have the DTM level set to 8 and lowered it back to default of 5 and didn't see the issue again for the rest of the disc, which makes me think that had something to do with it.

I bought the Masciola HDR10 test disc recently to help with basic set up and to try to get an understanding of how HDR/tone mapping works. What I have noticed is that I can't get the lowest black bar to flash (0.5%), without getting the 0% bar flashing as well when using DTM. I've tried every different setting I could find in the Lumagen (and the display's own controls are too coarse as well) to no avail. Hopefully the next update might make some difference as I gather it is due soon.

I received a UHD of Oblivion today, so I've been comparing it with my BluRay and the two settings in my display/Lumagen. It has helped me set the display max level for my TV in the Lumagen (I'll do the projector later) and subjectively the two discs now seem a similar brightness, although it takes so long to swap between them it's not an A-B test...more of an A.................................B test.


----------



## A7mad78

I place order from Amazon to these monoprice hdmi cable to replace my recent which i face i huge problem from them maybe coz they are only 1.5 m is some one try to use these cables 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

A7mad78 said:


> I place order from Amazon to these monoprice hdmi cable to replace my recent which i face i huge problem from them maybe coz they are only 1.5 m is some one try to use these cables
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many of us have been using this Monoprice HDMI cable. However, this HDMI cable only costs a tad more and may be even better:

Apple TV 4k Issues - Use Belkin 8k HDMI Cable
For those of us with the Apple 4k TV:

With my Sony VW5000ES projector & Lumagen Radiance Pro: I like to watch Star Trek Discovery on CBS All Access, which here in US is only broadcast in 1080i, having my Apple 4k TV set at 1080p. I also prefer 1080p output for other HD programming on my Apple 4k TV. But whenever I switch to or from 1080p or 4k for video, I get issues with the video picture getting way too big or where the remote doesn't work except for speech and I have to use speech to go into Settings and turn off the voice accessibility which I never turned on!

However, Apple recommends and sells on their website (and Amazon) the following 2M 8k 48 Gbs HDMI cable for their Apple 4k TV:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have gone in and switched to every video resolution possible and not had one issue. So you may want to try this cable! Amazon has a few other 8k cables from other companies and I think the longest length is 10 feet for those cables but I haven't tried them and would stick to Belkin unless you need more than 2M!


----------



## A7mad78

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Many of us have been using this Monoprice HDMI cable. However, this HDMI cable only costs a tad more and may be even better:
> 
> 
> 
> Apple TV 4k Issues - Use Belkin 8k HDMI Cable
> 
> For those of us with the Apple 4k TV:
> 
> 
> 
> With my Sony VW5000ES projector & Lumagen Radiance Pro: I like to watch Star Trek Discovery on CBS All Access, which here in US is only broadcast in 1080i, having my Apple 4k TV set at 1080p. I also prefer 1080p output for other HD programming on my Apple 4k TV. But whenever I switch to or from 1080p or 4k for video, I get issues with the video picture getting way too big or where the remote doesn't work except for speech and I have to use speech to go into Settings and turn off the voice accessibility which I never turned on!
> 
> 
> 
> However, Apple recommends and sells on their website (and Amazon) the following 2M 8k 48 Gbs HDMI cable for their Apple 4k TV:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> 
> 
> I have gone in and switched to every video resolution possible and not had one issue. So you may want to try this cable! Amazon has a few other 8k cables from other companies and I think the longest length is 10 feet for those cables but I haven't tried them and would stick to Belkin unless you need more than 2M!




Thx steve defiantly i got an issue with my cable they are 1m and certified as 18gbps I remember that i got another cable and i try it now more than 3 hours every thing works fine even this cable not certified as 18gbps but it works fine until know that’s way i go for monoprice as a test coz it’s not cost much 

I am thinking also in pixelgendesign they got good recommendation 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

A7mad78 said:


> Thx steve defiantly i got an issue with my cable they are 1m and certified as 18gbps I remember that i got another cable and i try it now more than 3 hours every thing works fine even this cable not certified as 18gbps but it works fine until know that’s way i go for monoprice as a test coz it’s not cost much
> 
> I am thinking also in pixelgendesign they got good recommendation


That Kordz cable isn't certified for 18G operation - check their website:
https://www.kordz.com/pro-hdmi-cable


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> That Kordz cable isn't certified for 18G operation - check their website:
> 
> https://www.kordz.com/pro-hdmi-cable




Yes i know i got the problem with R.3 that certified as 18gbps and when i plug the pro it work for me batter than the R.3 And from more than 3 hours every thing with thr pro work fine .. so weird  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

Kelvin1965S said:


> I've noticed some 'pulsing' on brighter scenes when watching Sicario 2 last weekend. However I haven't done a proper calibration on my projector yet (JVC X7500), just a basic contrast/brightness and 2 point greyscale in the projector itself. I also use DI (auto 2) so it may have been the cause. I did have the DTM level set to 8 and lowered it back to default of 5 and didn't see the issue again for the rest of the disc, which makes me think that had something to do with it.
> 
> I bought the Masciola HDR10 test disc recently to help with basic set up and to try to get an understanding of how HDR/tone mapping works. What I have noticed is that I can't get the lowest black bar to flash (0.5%), without getting the 0% bar flashing as well when using DTM. I've tried every different setting I could find in the Lumagen (and the display's own controls are too coarse as well) to no avail. Hopefully the next update might make some difference as I gather it is due soon.
> *
> I received a UHD of Oblivion today, so I've been comparing it with my BluRay and the two settings in my display/Lumagen. *It has helped me set the display max level for my TV in the Lumagen (I'll do the projector later) and subjectively the two discs now seem a similar brightness, although it takes so long to swap between them it's not an A-B test...more of an A.................................B test.


That is one movie where you might find the Blu-ray looks just as good or better than the 4k disc. I think they botched that 4K disc.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Yes Craig; since receiving that disc I've been told that by a few people now.  At least it was cheap.  I've only looked at it downscaled on my 1080p TV so I didn't really notice any issues/lack of improvement over the BD. It was more an exercise to help me subjectively balance the brightness between SDR and HDR sources. I've also got Gladiator coming (because I already have the BluRay and my wife wants to watch it again once I've got my calibration sorted)...probably picked another bad one there knowing my luck.


----------



## Wookii

Kelvin1965S said:


> Yes Craig; since receiving that disc I've been told that by a few people now.  At least it was cheap.  I've only looked at it downscaled on my 1080p TV so I didn't really notice any issues/lack of improvement over the BD. It was more an exercise to help me subjectively balance the brightness between SDR and HDR sources. I've also got Gladiator coming (because I already have the BluRay and my wife wants to watch it again once I've got my calibration sorted)...probably picked another bad one there knowing my luck.


Gladiator looks good for it’s age to be honest, I really enjoyed revisiting that one. There are some really grainy scenes, but many of the closer framed ones have scrubbed up really well.

Bear in kind though Kelvin, every 4K disc you buy has the blu-ray disc included with it, so you’ll always have both even if you buy a new title.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I've not bought many UHDs so I hadn't realised that they come with both.  I got one included with my Sony X800 with only the UHD disc and I usually rent the rest since I don't tend to watch films over and over.

Any news on this update yet?


----------



## LJG

Is anyone else running Directv 4K HLG through the Pro? The HLG image is totally washed out


----------



## Garth Jacobsen

LJG said:


> Is anyone else running Directv 4K HLG through the Pro? The HLG image is totally washed out


Tried a 4k March madness game and it looked terrible, switched over to the regular HD channel. Would love suggeations... 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Is anyone else running Directv 4K HLG through the Pro? The HLG image is totally washed out


Yes. This wash out is brightness, and if you turn projector brightness down picture is better. This only occurred very recently, never was an issue until recently.


----------



## LJG

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Yes. This wash out is brightness, and if you turn projector brightness down picture is better. This only occurred very recently, never was an issue until recently.


I think its been like this for a long while, I seem to remember tuning into last years Masters and it was unwatchable. For kicks and giggles Steve, turn off the tone mapping in Lumagen and output native HLG/HDR to you Sony and you will see a much superior image for the live feeds on 106. This tells me something is off in the Lumagen HLG tone mapping.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> I think its been like this for a long while, I seem to remember tuning into last years Masters and it was unwatchable. For kicks and giggles Steve, turn off the tone mapping in Lumagen and output native HLG/HDR to you Sony and you will see a much superior image for the live feeds on 106. This tells me something is off in the Lumagen HLG tone mapping.


I did and I agree!


----------



## Htnut2000

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I did and I agree!


I think @jrp has said previously that HLG dynamic tone mapping is not implemented yet


----------



## Wookii

Htnut2000 said:


> I think @jrp has said previously that HLG dynamic tone mapping is not implemented yet


Agreed, I thought I’d read the same.


----------



## LJG

Htnut2000 said:


> I think @jrp has said previously that HLG dynamic tone mapping is not implemented yet


I was not talking about HLG dynamic, I was talking about HLG static....


----------



## audvid

I am a bit confused as to which lumagen to purchase.



My _current_ set up requires the following; 

minimum 4 hdmi 18 ghz inputs. Preferably 6

1 hdmi hdr 4k 18 ghz output
1 hdmi audio output
1 hdmi 2k output

Its hard to explain why but I absolutely need these outputs.


I see on lumagen site that the 18 ghz output has audio output also. 



So, 4442 or 4444.. for example, 4444, I assume I can use one 18 ghz output for 1080p also?


Can output cards be added at a later time? If so, how much?
Thanks.


----------



## mhafner

Tested the dynamic tone mapping some more and it can create flicker in some situations. When playing the opening credits of "Blade Runner" it adds short flicker at times. And the dynamic iris of my JVC adds pumping, of course (that's why it is always off). So the shot heuristics need to be improved to recognize that fade in and out of stuff on black background is one shot and no edits are present.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

@mhafner What DTM level setting were you using when you saw this? I'd put mine up to 8 and saw pulsing on a few scenes on Sicario 2 last week. Once I turned the level back to default of 5 it seemed to be OK for the rest of the film (I didn't go back and check the same scenes though). Bare in mind that I do use DI on my X7500 and I'm not normally troubled by pumping (except on end credits, which doesn't bother me anyway), so this stood out much more than any DI pumping.

Hopefully this is something that is being improved for the next update, but in the meantime I'd try putting the level setting back to default of 5. I watched Oblivion last night and didn't notice any issues with pumping with the setting on 5.

@audvid I often output 1080p from my 18Ghz output as I have a splitter on the HDMI output and one side goes to a 1080p TV which I watch much more than my projector. Just a matter of setting up a different memory with all the output resolutions set to 1080p.


----------



## audvid

Kelvin1965S said:


> @*audvid* I often output 1080p from my 18Ghz output as I have a splitter on the HDMI output and one side goes to a 1080p TV which I watch much more than my projector. Just a matter of setting up a different memory with all the output resolutions set to 1080p.


Which brand splitter do you use? Can you suggest 1X3 splitter along with a good 4k hdr 6X1 switch or even a 4X4 matrix switch?
Thanks


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I'm using a HDFury Integral that I bought to help with HDCP issues when I had a JVC X500, I just use it as a two way splitter now. I can't recommend any others as I haven't tried them with 4K though sorry.


----------



## mhafner

Kelvin1965S said:


> @*mhafner* What DTM level setting were you using when you saw this?.


8. I have to test if less makes a difference.


----------



## bobof

audvid said:


> I am a bit confused as to which lumagen to purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> My _current_ set up requires the following;
> 
> minimum 4 hdmi 18 ghz inputs. Preferably 6
> 
> 1 hdmi hdr 4k 18 ghz output
> 1 hdmi audio output
> 1 hdmi 2k output
> 
> Its hard to explain why but I absolutely need these outputs.
> 
> 
> I see on lumagen site that the 18 ghz output has audio output also.
> 
> 
> 
> So, 4442 or 4444.. for example, 4444, I assume I can use one 18 ghz output for 1080p also?
> 
> 
> Can output cards be added at a later time? If so, how much?
> Thanks.


You'll need to provide a bit more detail about why you need the outputs, or at least if they all need to work simultaneously. It isn't possible to have video at 1080p and 4K simultaneously from a Radiance Pro regardless of number of outputs. To do that you'd need some kind of external box to split and downscale the 4K output - such as perhaps something from HDFURY.


----------



## audvid

My set up :
BenQ lk970 4k projector
datasat ls10 (hdmi out doesn't have audio and hdmi in is not 4k ready)
Sony Avr feeding a 2k TV in adjacent room. I don't watch 4k source material on this.
I don't watch both screens simultaneously.

I could use one 18 ghz out of lumagen to send video to BenQ and same output's audio to datasat.
the 2nd 18ghz output will be sent to the Sony Avr and 1080p TV. I assume I can switch this output to be 1080p at the push of a memory button? Or can I simply program output 2 to be simple pass thru?

I am not sure if I really want to deal with a lumagen. I wish I could find a high quality 4x4 matrix or a 6x1 matrix plus 1x3 splitter. If you know of such, please advice.


----------



## Craig Peer

Kelvin1965S said:


> Yes Craig; since receiving that disc I've been told that by a few people now.  At least it was cheap.  I've only looked at it downscaled on my 1080p TV so I didn't really notice any issues/lack of improvement over the BD. It was more an exercise to help me subjectively balance the brightness between SDR and HDR sources. *I've also got Gladiator coming (because I already have the BluRay and my wife wants to watch it again once I've got my calibration sorted)...probably picked another bad one there knowing my luck*.


Gladiator looks excellent on 4K BR ( haven't watched it with dynamic tone mapping yet ). One of my favorite Ridley Scott films ! I like the extended cut myself - Joaquin Phoenix is extra creepy in it as the emperor !


----------



## Gordon Fraser

audvid said:


> My set up :
> BenQ lk970 4k projector
> datasat ls10 (hdmi out doesn't have audio and hdmi in is not 4k ready)
> Sony Avr feeding a 2k TV in adjacent room. I don't watch 4k source material on this.
> I don't watch both screens simultaneously.
> 
> I could use one 18 ghz out of lumagen to send video to BenQ and same output's audio to datasat.
> the 2nd 18ghz output will be sent to the Sony Avr and 1080p TV. I assume I can switch this output to be 1080p at the push of a memory button? Or can I simply program output 2 to be simple pass thru?
> 
> I am not sure if I really want to deal with a lumagen. I wish I could find a high quality 4x4 matrix or a 6x1 matrix plus 1x3 splitter. If you know of such, please advice.



The Lumagen Pro always outpus the same processed signal on all video outputs. You cannot programme it to output different resoltuions at the same time or to have one video output be processed and one pass through. You can have different resoltuions going to different displays at different times by programming the unit to use differet output modes and styles and cms banks on different memories. ie when TV is in use you use MEMORY A and when Projector is in use you use MEMORY B.


----------



## mhafner

mhafner said:


> 8. I have to test if less makes a difference.


When I retested no flicker at any setting. Puzzling...


----------



## bobof

There is at least one issue I see fairly frequently with DTM that I'm surprised hasn't been reported by anyone else which is a single frame bright flash which seems to be able to happen when transitioning from very dark scenes to bright scenes. 

Is that what you're referring to @mhafner ? 

For me the easily reproducible case was:

"Watching Triple Frontier on Netflix I came across a reproducible and pretty obvious case of something I'm sure I've been seeing a bit with DTM., but not stopped to analyse.

Player is Sony UBPX800 outputting HDR10. Basically the issue I see is that occasionally after a dark and dingy scene that cuts to a bright scene the first frame appears to be a single frame very bright flash, like it is massively clipped. 38m50 onwards is where it happens. The guys are in the car at night and then it cuts to a bright market scene. As it cuts to the new scene you get the bright flash. Seems to go away if you disable DTM."


----------



## mhafner

bobof said:


> There is at least one issue I see fairly frequently with DTM that I'm surprised hasn't been reported by anyone else which is a single frame bright flash which seems to be able to happen when transitioning from very dark scenes to bright scenes.
> Is that what you're referring to @*mhafner* ?


Could be related. It's all black and then bright white letters fade in quickly.
DTM not always gives a picture with more depth. It may also make it look more milky compared to the static version, but with bright/highlight detail less/not clipped away. I watched "A Star Is Born" and it was full of somewhat hazy shots with DTM. But my settings are also rather extreme (shape 3, transition 7-10, display brightness 300 nits).


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> Could be related. It's all black and then bright white letters fade in quickly.
> DTM not always gives a picture with more depth. It may also make it look more milky compared to the static version, but with bright/highlight detail less/not clipped away. I watched "A Star Is Born" and it was full of somewhat hazy shots with DTM. But my settings are also rather extreme (shape 3, transition 7-10, display brightness 300 nits).


I also reported a couple of hazy looking shots earlier in Star Trek - Discovery on Netflix in UK, but I haven't played with settings much yet.


----------



## dinamigym

For those that use a Lumagen with their Sony 5000....Aside from the aspect ratio, tone mapping, calibration benefits when incorporating the Lumagen with the 5000 is there any consensus on whether it makes HDMI switching better or worse? I have used a Lumagen from day one with my 5000 and HDMI handshake/switching is ok on the best days and very frustrating on the worst. I'm considering pulling it from the chain to see if there is an improvement but before I do I figured I'd ask? I have tried numerous cable combinations and currently use a 45ft Ruipro fiber cable. Its the best so far but my handshake issues still leave much to be desired.


----------



## thrang

bobof said:


> There is at least one issue I see fairly frequently with DTM that I'm surprised hasn't been reported by anyone else which is a single frame bright flash which seems to be able to happen when transitioning from very dark scenes to bright scenes.


Yes, I reported that to Jim as well as Kris who is spending a lot of time on DTM... The latest beta seems to address this (it is unreleased but I am evaluating)

However I do notice some brightness clampdown on a number of scenes in The Martian that look more appropriate with DTM off (many exterior scenes especially. Haven't had enough time to see if this is disc specific or not but will look more. There was a another segment in The Martian, as the Ares lifts off from Mars and then dissolves to Jeff Daniels press conference where the Daniels scene starts of quite bright, but as the camera trucks back for several seconds, it suddenly clamps down to a darker image.

I've reported all this - Lumagen are doing some really nice work with DTM, so I'm sure over the next month or so there will be several more refinements


----------



## mskreis

dinamigym said:


> For those that use a Lumagen with their Sony 5000....Aside from the aspect ratio, tone mapping, calibration benefits when incorporating the Lumagen with the 5000 is there any consensus on whether it makes HDMI switching better or worse? I have used a Lumagen from day one with my 5000 and HDMI handshake/switching is ok on the best days and very frustrating on the worst. I'm considering pulling it from the chain to see if there is an improvement but before I do I figured I'd ask? I have tried numerous cable combinations and currently use a 45ft Ruipro fiber cable. Its the best so far but my handshake issues still leave much to be desired.




I’ve had a similar experience with my JVC 640 and a 10m Ruipro. I had an unused Vertex and decided to add it to the chain. It sits on top of my JVC and has eliminated nearly all of my handshake issues. Most of my issues were with Directv. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## appelz

dinamigym said:


> For those that use a Lumagen with their Sony 5000....Aside from the aspect ratio, tone mapping, calibration benefits when incorporating the Lumagen with the 5000 is there any consensus on whether it makes HDMI switching better or worse? I have used a Lumagen from day one with my 5000 and HDMI handshake/switching is ok on the best days and very frustrating on the worst. I'm considering pulling it from the chain to see if there is an improvement but before I do I figured I'd ask? I have tried numerous cable combinations and currently use a 45ft Ruipro fiber cable. Its the best so far but my handshake issues still leave much to be desired.


Make sure cables from sources to Lumagen are also quality cables and in the 2m-3m length.


----------



## dinamigym

mskreis said:


> I’ve had a similar experience with my JVC 640 and a 10m Ruipro. I had an unused Vertex and decided to add it to the chain. It sits on top of my JVC and has eliminated nearly all of my handshake issues. Most of my issues were with Directv.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have one of those. I'll give it a try. Thanks


----------



## dinamigym

appelz said:


> Make sure cables from sources to Lumagen are also quality cables and in the 2m-3m length.


I've tried adjusting/changing those also. Have you ever gone source direct to your AVR, then direct to projector? I guess 
I'm trying to figure out if the Lumagen is making that handshake more difficult or not. Right now Lumagen is doing all my video switching. Only audio going to AVR.


----------



## appelz

dinamigym said:


> I've tried adjusting/changing those also. Have you ever gone source direct to your AVR, then direct to projector?


I haven't tried that with a Sony 5000, no. I can't think of an install I've worked on with that projector that didn't have a Lumagen in the path. I have seen a couple of bad RUIPro cables over the years, like anything else.


----------



## dinamigym

appelz said:


> I haven't tried that with a Sony 5000, no. I can't think of an install I've worked on with that projector that didn't have a Lumagen in the path. I have seen a couple of bad RUIPro cables over the years, like anything else.




Thanks. I was thinking of trying the AVPro UNC but trying to exhaust all other possibilities before spending the dough.

Jim recommended going to 9GHZ output which helped but it messed with my Kaleidescape Strato movies. The movie playback wasn’t fluid anymore it wasn’t terrible but definitely could see it jumping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## appelz

dinamigym said:


> Thanks. I was thinking of trying the AVPro UNC but trying to exhaust all other possibilities before spending the dough.
> 
> Jim recommended going to 9GHZ output which helped but it messed with my Kaleidescape Strato movies. The movie playback wasn’t fluid anymore it wasn’t terrible but definitely could see it jumping.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did just use one at the new CEDIA Experience Center cinema, and flawless so far. Barco Loki Cinemascope tho, not a Sony.


----------



## Eventidal

dinamigym said:


> Jim recommended going to 9GHZ output which helped but it messed with my Kaleidescape Strato movies. The movie playback wasn’t fluid anymore it wasn’t terrible but definitely could see it jumping.


Did you check other sources as well? 

Sounds more like incorrect frame rate matching, 9GHZ usually has no dropouts/stutter. 

Did you check the info menu? 

What HDMI microcode are you using?


----------



## dinamigym

Eventidal said:


> Did you check other sources as well?
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds more like incorrect frame rate matching, 9GHZ usually has no dropouts/stutter.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you check the info menu?
> 
> 
> 
> What HDMI microcode are you using?




I’m on the new microcode. I agree...does seem like a frame rate issue but I did check the info menu and I can’t see anything wrong. When I switch back to 18ghz the stutter goes away and frame rate doesn’t change. Shows same as it did when outputting 9ghz.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Eventidal

Try reloading the old microcode, it might work better with the 9GHZ output boards...

Did you activate frame rate matching?


----------



## dinamigym

Eventidal said:


> Try reloading the old microcode, it might work better with the 9GHZ output boards...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you activate frame rate matching?




Did not activate frame rate matching. Should I do that when trying the 9GHZ output?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## netroamer

*HDR Tone Mapping-Sony 5000*

I looking for the best tone mapping setup for the Pro with a Sony 5000 PJ. Any input would be appreciated. Bright scenes look too washed out.


----------



## Eventidal

dinamigym said:


> Did not activate frame rate matching. Should I do that when trying the 9GHZ output?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you set the HDMI format to 9GHZ auto in the radiance? 

I always use frame rate matching.Give it a try.

If still no luck then reload old microcode and check colour depth in the Kaleidascape...


----------



## dinamigym

Eventidal said:


> Have you set the HDMI format to 9GHZ auto in the radiance?
> 
> 
> 
> I always use frame rate matching.Give it a try.
> 
> 
> 
> If still no luck then reload old microcode and check colour depth in the Kaleidascape...




Thanks...Yes 9GHZ auto. That’s what gave me stuttering in the Strato output. I’ll try reloading old code. I do know when I switch to 9 and check Strato HDMI port status I get a yellow output status. When I’m on 18 auto on lumagen all Strato ports show blue (fully operational).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gordon Fraser

dinamigym said:


> Thanks...Yes 9GHZ auto. That’s what gave me stuttering in the Strato output. I’ll try reloading old code. I do know when I switch to 9 and check Strato HDMI port status I get a yellow output status. When I’m on 18 auto on lumagen all Strato ports show blue (fully operational).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



when you change to 9GHz output there should be absolutely no change in status on the Strato and what it reports it can send to the Lumagen as that is based on the capabilities of the INPUT board, not output board. Are you sure you are changing output board setting not input one? Also rate match can cause additional re-syncs so i'd have it off and also have genlock off as both of those should make sync better.


----------



## dinamigym

Gordon Fraser said:


> when you change to 9GHz output there should be absolutely no change in status on the Strato and what it reports it can send to the Lumagen as that is based on the capabilities of the INPUT board, not output board. Are you sure you are changing output board setting not input one? Also rate match can cause additional re-syncs so i'd have it off and also have genlock off as both of those should make sync better.




Thanks...I’m going to double check that now that you mention.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## giomania

Gordon Fraser said:


> when you change to 9GHz output there should be absolutely no change in status on the Strato and what it reports it can send to the Lumagen as that is based on the capabilities of the INPUT board, not output board. Are you sure you are changing output board setting not input one? Also rate match can cause additional re-syncs so i'd have it off and also have genlock off as both of those should make sync better.




Where is this output board setting located? I am having a minor audio issue with a TiVo Roamio Pro and a 50-foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable I have been trying to solve. I have the input limited to 1080p as recommended by Jim for older HDMI devices with issues. The Radiance 2441 did not have this issue, so the Pro is the key factor that changed when this problem started.

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## netroamer

giomania said:


> Where is this output board setting located? I am having a minor audio issue with a TiVo Roamio Pro and a 50-foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable I have been trying to solve. I have the input limited to 1080p as recommended by Jim for older HDMI devices with issues. The Radiance 2441 did not have this issue, so the Pro is the key factor that changed when this problem started.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



If you're losing audio when switching from a different input back to the Roamio...welcome to the club. I've tried all I know without success.


----------



## giomania

netroamer said:


> If you're losing audio when switching from a different input back to the Roamio...welcome to the club. I've tried all I know without success.




I have not experienced that symptom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mhafner

I looked at the credits of "Blade Runner" again. Apart from the flickering there is a saturation problem with the green tree at the beginning when dynamic mapping is on. It's hardly green anymore but brighter, of course. So are the white text. The red text stays red, though. I guess this can be improved. ? In general I liked the effect on the credits a lot since they are now much punchier.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

giomania said:


> Where is this output board setting located?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



MENU>OUTPUTSTYLE*>HDMI FORMAT>TYPE> Auto 9GHz


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> MENU>OUTPUTSTYLE*>HDMI FORMAT>TYPE> Auto 9GHz


When you change to 9GHz (and have 18Ghz cards), does a Y or N show up on page 4 of the info screen? I.e. is it showing the physical hardware on that info screen or what you have it set for? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> When you change to 9GHz (and have 18Ghz cards), does a Y or N show up on page 4 of the info screen? I.e. is it showing the physical hardware on that info screen or what you have it set for? Thanks. SJ



I believe that is showing the physical hardware.


----------



## sdrucker

Question for you guys (I think this is my first post on this thread):
I'm looking at finally pulling the trigger on a Radiance Pro 4444 or 4446 to go with my Trinnov Altitude 32/24. However, I still have the original Altitude HDMI card that only had Input 1 as HDMI 1.4 with (partially) HDCP 2.2 and a single HDCP 2.2 compatible output with Output 2. Wondering whether I will have to upgrade the HDMI card in the Altitude assuming the following....

Three potential UHD sources (Oppo 203, Roku Ultra, HTPC with a 4K/HDCP 2.2 NVidia card), maybe a fourth that's Apple TV 4K
Lumagen has either three or four 18 Ghz inputs (TBD), and one 18 Ghz output
6' 18 Ghz compatible cable from sources to Lumagen, and similar to my JVC RS600

My question: if I'm sending 18 Ghz (presumably) video output to the JVC RS600, and audio output from the Lumagen to the Altitude, is there any reason I can't just send HDMI 1.4 compatible output to the Altitude or will I break HDCP 2.2 and cause issues? And do I really need 18 Ghz video output to an JVC RS600 given my sources, or can I get by with 9 Ghz video output?

I could, of course, upgrade the Altitude to the newer board, decide which of my inputs are going to be 9 Ghz or 18 Ghz in the upcoming software update or the beta (if my Roku and HTPC are just doing 4K streaming; do I even need or want them to have 18 Ghz input?), and having a single video output from the Altitude to the Lumagen that's HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 compatible. However, can I get by with the older HDMI I/O card, and save the $700 or so on the card towards calibration, or do I really want to swap out the I/O card as part of the cost of upgrading my video?

Thanks in advance...just trying to avoid breaking what's not broken, so pardon the relatively simple question.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

sdrucker said:


> Question for you guys (I think this is my first post on this thread):
> I'm looking at finally pulling the trigger on a Radiance Pro 4444 or 4446 to go with my Trinnov Altitude 32/24. However, I still have the original Altitude HDMI card that only had Input 1 as HDMI 1.4 with (partially) HDCP 2.2 and a single HDCP 2.2 compatible output with Output 2. Wondering whether I will have to upgrade the HDMI card in the Altitude assuming the following....
> 
> Three potential UHD sources (Oppo 203, Roku Ultra, HTPC with a 4K/HDCP 2.2 NVidia card), maybe a fourth that's Apple TV 4K
> Lumagen has either three or four 18 Ghz inputs (TBD), and one 18 Ghz output
> 6' 18 Ghz compatible cable from sources to Lumagen, and similar to my JVC RS600
> 
> My question: if I'm sending 18 Ghz (presumably) video output to the JVC RS600, and audio output from the Lumagen to the Altitude, is there any reason I can't just send HDMI 1.4 compatible output to the Altitude or will I break HDCP 2.2 and cause issues? And do I really need 18 Ghz video output to an JVC RS600 given my sources, or can I get by with 9 Ghz video output?
> 
> I could, of course, upgrade the Altitude to the newer board, decide which of my inputs are going to be 9 Ghz or 18 Ghz in the upcoming software update or the beta (if my Roku and HTPC are just doing 4K streaming; do I even need or want them to have 18 Ghz input?), and having a single video output from the Altitude to the Lumagen that's HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 compatible. However, can I get by with the older HDMI I/O card, and save the $700 or so on the card towards calibration, or do I really want to swap out the I/O card as part of the cost of upgrading my video?
> 
> Thanks in advance...just trying to avoid breaking what's not broken, so pardon the relatively simple question.


If you are using the Radiance Pro for all video switching and source inputs (unless you have a 4k player like Oppo with one HDMI video and one HDMI audio output, which makes no difference since HDMI 1.4 audio output goes to Trinnov), then you only have HDMI 1.4 going out of Radiance Pro and into the Trinnov - so upgrading to the new HDMI board is I would think not necessary. On the other hand, my Altitude 32 arrived late last Sept and only required a firmware upgrade to be HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2.

If you want to use the Trinnov to do video switching, then you will need the HDMI board HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2.


----------



## westmd

Are the input and output HDMI boards interchangable? I do have one 18GHz in and one 9GHz in and an 18GHz out and I wanted to exchange them to two 18GHz in and a 9GHz out. Would that work?


----------



## bobof

westmd said:


> Are the input and output HDMI boards interchangable? I do have one 18GHz in and one 9GHz in and an 18GHz out and I wanted to exchange them to two 18GHz in and a 9GHz out. Would that work?


No, not interchangeable, the cards are different. There might be a commercial solution (like a trade-in discount or something).


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Gordon Fraser said:


> ...Also rate match can cause additional re-syncs so i'd have it off and also have genlock off as both of those should make sync better.


I changed this setting during the week after reading your post. I had Genlock off already as it happens, so it was just rate match I turned off. However, last night I watched a film 'The Commuter' and kept noticing a 'jump' every now and then. I checked the info screen and saw it was 24.00 input and Lumagen giving 23.98 output. I couldn't see any way to set this in the output settings so I got 24.00 out, but I changed the rate match back to ON and that sorted it, 24 in and 24 out. No further jumps during the film.

Since this type of disc seems to be a rarity I guess I'll just have to change this on a disc by disc basis, or live with possible worse syncing and just leave rate match on all the time.


----------



## bobof

Rate match to me seems like a particularly bad idea for what is a high-end device. I can't understand why anyone would really want to see a dropped frame every ~42seconds with certain content. 

Given the amount of effort folk go to correct colour and aspect presentation, I then find it incredible that dopped frames would be OK. The only time you get an advantage (ie not seeing the resync happen) is when you're going from a 23.976 to 24p source. If there isn't much 24.000p content then there is no advantage to rate match, and if there is lots of content (and lots of sync changes) then it means you're getting lots of dropped frames in lots of content! It seems like lose-lose.

I think the only real place it has is where someone is converting everything to 60p out because they're already tolerant of that video abuse , and so as there is already a 3:2 telecine conversion happening it isn't so noticeable if sometimes you get and sometimes you get 3:2:3:2:2:3:2. I think folk in the US cut motion a lot more slack because they've always lived (until relatively recently) with the pulldown cadence.

It's worth noting that even if you have rate matching enabled in the Radiance Pro, some source devices don't handle this content correctly. Biggest notable example is the AppleTV4K which only ever outputs 23.976p with 24p content. I noticed this the other day in Netflix movie Triple Frontier which is 24p. Luckily my Sony BD player works correctly and does output 23.976p and 24p from Netflix content.

I've still not really found a good explanation for how Genlock works and quantifying its downside. I know having it enabled is implicated in causing some HDMI sync problems with some displays, but there must be a downside to not having it enabled. I think without it enabled you might also get occasional dropped or duplicate frames, but I believe that their frequency will be related to the fractional difference in accuracy between the source device HDMI clock and that locally generated by the Radiance Pro; and that the dropped or duplicate frame will happen once the drift between the two clocks reaches a certain threshold.


----------



## *Harry*

Gordon Fraser said:


> I believe that is showing the physical hardware.


Yes, on Info page 4 you see if/what type of card is installed:
"Y" = 18GHz
"N" = 9GHz
"-" = card not installed


----------



## Unherdable

sdrucker said:


> My question: if I'm sending 18 Ghz (presumably) video output to the JVC RS600, and audio output from the Lumagen to the Altitude, is there any reason I can't just send HDMI 1.4 compatible output to the Altitude or will I break HDCP 2.2 and cause issues?


Just to answer this question in case nobody else did.... it will work great. I have an original Altitude with its HDMI 1.4 and I do audio-only output to the Altitude. Most of the other inputs/outputs of my pro are 18GHz.


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

Can Lumagen take a 4K UHD BT2020 movie from OPPO203 player and convert it to 2k rec709 SDR to play on a older(2012) 2k rec709 Sony TV? Don't want to make any changes to the OPPO player to do this.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Quote: Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
My question: if I'm sending 18 Ghz (presumably) video output to the JVC RS600, and audio output from the Lumagen to the Altitude, is there any reason I can't just send HDMI 1.4 compatible output to the Altitude or will I break HDCP 2.2 and cause issues?



Unherdable said:


> Just to answer this question in case nobody else did.... it will work great. I have an original Altitude with its HDMI 1.4 and I do audio-only output to the Altitude. Most of the other inputs/outputs of my pro are 18GHz.


I believe when you use HDMI out 1 its presetup to output HDMI 1.4 audio. I have 18 GHz video output and route all video sources to Radiance Pro, then HDMI out 1 to Altitude 32, and audio is perfect every time. And this was when my Altitude HDMI input was HDMI 1.4 - now with firmware uploaded and in the menu HDMI port designation to HDMI 2.0 audio still works perfect (HDMI 2.0 is backwards compatible with HDMI 1.4).


----------



## loggeo

Carbon Ft Print said:


> Can Lumagen take a 4K UHD BT2020 movie from OPPO203 player and convert it to 2k rec709 SDR to play on a older(2012) 2k rec709 Sony TV? Don't want to make any changes to the OPPO player to do this.



Yes it can and you can take advantage of lumagen's tone mapping for hdr content.


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

loggeo said:


> Yes it can and you can take advantage of lumagen's tone mapping for hdr content.


That's quite excellent. Lumagen can color space convert BT2020 to rec709. Thx!


----------



## loggeo

Carbon Ft Print said:


> That's quite excellent. Lumagen can color space convert BT2020 to rec709. Thx!


Selecting output colorspace sdr709 and setting output resolution to 1080p should do the trick. Then you can enable hdr mapping and take advantage of Lumagen's great feature. I don't believe you will face any kind of problem due to Sony not supporting hdcp 2.2.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

loggeo said:


> Selecting output colorspace sdr709 and setting output resolution to 1080p should do the trick. Then you can enable hdr mapping and take advantage of Lumagen's great feature. I don't believe you will face any kind of problem due to Sony not supporting hdcp 2.2.



If the TV is not HDCP2/2 then i am sure that you will not be able to play any HDCP2.2 content without the use of something like an HD FURY device. The Pro can do all the conversions but it will not convert the copy protection.


----------



## loggeo

Gordon Fraser said:


> If the TV is not HDCP2/2 then i am sure that you will not be able to play any HDCP2.2 content without the use of something like an HD FURY device. The Pro can do all the conversions but it will not convert the copy protection.


Correct. However I have successfully connected an oppo 203 directly to a jvc rs48 (no lumagen in the chain) on a friend's set up. In this case, all the conversions were made by the oppo. But shouldn't there be an hdcp problem when playing uhd content? We used oppo's tone mapping. We had zero issues.
And this begs the question. If lumagen outputs sdr709 (with no metadata) signal why should there be an hdcp issue?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

loggeo said:


> Correct. However I have successfully connected an oppo 203 directly to a jvc rs48 (no lumagen in the chain) on a friend's set up. In this case, all the conversions were made by the oppo. But shouldn't there be an hdcp problem when playing uhd content? We used oppo's tone mapping. We had zero issues.
> And this begs the question. If lumagen outputs sdr709 (with no metadata) signal why should there be an hdcp issue?



Well that's one for Lumagen. I am pretty sure that if it receives an HDCP2.2 signal from any source then it will not output it at all unless the display is HDCP2.2 compliant.


----------



## bobof

Gordon Fraser said:


> Well that's one for Lumagen. I am pretty sure that if it receives an HDCP2.2 signal from any source then it will not output it at all unless the display is HDCP2.2 compliant.


I believe what a well mannered UHD disk player would do in the presence of an HDCP1.4-only capable sink is downscale the content to 1080p. Fixing the output of a UHD player to 1080p should make it work with 1.4 sinks. 

If you want to keep 4k output though you either need a 2.2 compliant display or an HDFury linker or better.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I'll have to do some checking of what is happening with my (1080p) TV on the output of the Pro then: I've got a HD Fury Integral (which I got when I had a JVC X500, I thought it was to do with HDCP, but it's so long ago now I forget  these day's it's just a handy way to split the output from my Pro).

I seem to remember I can plug into the Integral and read some information from it, but I guess what would be the clue is what the Pro says on the info page while playing back HDCP 2.2 signals?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kelvin1965S said:


> I'll have to do some checking of what is happening with my (1080p) TV on the output of the Pro then: I've got a HD Fury Integral (which I got when I had a JVC X500, I thought it was to do with HDCP, but it's so long ago now I forget  these day's it's just a handy way to split the output from my Pro).
> 
> I seem to remember I can plug into the Integral and read some information from it, but I guess what would be the clue is what the Pro says on the info page while playing back HDCP 2.2 signals?



yes the Integral tells the thing feeding it that it is HDCP2.2 compliant then it either removes or changes the HDCP to 1.x thereby allowing a display or intermediary device to display or pass through content it is not actually licensed to show or pass through


----------



## A7mad78

Hi Gordon 

Change new to old microcode dose it need to unplug the cable before enter the code 0850 or vice versa 

Thx 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I believe you should remove the HDMI cable before doing the micro-code update.


----------



## A7mad78

I update my apple tv before 2 days and something weird happen all the source are work fine even APTV but when i open Netflix and after watch I press back to apple main page something crazy happen the image blink fast and and can’t do nothing 

Only in apple tv 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

A7mad78 said:


> I update my apple tv before 2 days and something weird happen all the source are work fine even APTV but when i open Netflix and after watch I press back to apple main page something crazy happen the image blink fast and and can’t do nothing
> 
> Only in apple tv
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try turning off the Match Content features in the ATV settings/display.... SJ


----------



## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> Try turning off the Match Content features in the ATV settings/display.... SJ




The way I can resolve this issue is weird go back to Netflix and play any content and go back to apple main menu and then every thing works as it should 

Confused  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Bruzonsky

A7mad78 said:


> I update my apple tv before 2 days and something weird happen all the source are work fine even APTV but when i open Netflix and after watch I press back to apple main page something crazy happen the image blink fast and and can’t do nothing
> 
> Only in apple tv
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Apple TV 4k Issues - Use Belkin 8k HDMI Cable
For those of us with the Apple 4k TV:

With my Sony VW5000ES projector & Lumagen Radiance Pro: I like to watch Star Trek Discovery on CBS All Access, which here in US is only broadcast in 1080i, having my Apple 4k TV set at 1080p. I also prefer 1080p output for other HD programming on my Apple 4k TV. But whenever I switch to or from 1080p or 4k for video, I get issues with the video picture getting way too big or where the remote doesn't work except for speech and I have to use speech to go into Settings and turn off the voice accessibility which I never turned on!

However, Apple recommends and sells on their website (and Amazon) the following 2M 8k HDMI cable for their Apple 4k TV:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have gone in and switched to every video resolution possible and not had one issue. So you may want to try this cable!


----------



## Colozeus

Hello,
Just wanted to ask, how is the new dynamic tone mapping (frame by frame) that was made available been working out for you guys? Has anyone done comparisons to madvr's tone mapping?


----------



## A7mad78

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Apple TV 4k Issues - Use Belkin 8k HDMI Cable
> 
> For those of us with the Apple 4k TV:
> 
> 
> 
> With my Sony VW5000ES projector & Lumagen Radiance Pro: I like to watch Star Trek Discovery on CBS All Access, which here in US is only broadcast in 1080i, having my Apple 4k TV set at 1080p. I also prefer 1080p output for other HD programming on my Apple 4k TV. But whenever I switch to or from 1080p or 4k for video, I get issues with the video picture getting way too big or where the remote doesn't work except for speech and I have to use speech to go into Settings and turn off the voice accessibility which I never turned on!
> 
> 
> 
> However, Apple recommends and sells on their website (and Amazon) the following 2M 8k HDMI cable for their Apple 4k TV:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> 
> 
> I have gone in and switched to every video resolution possible and not had one issue. So you may want to try this cable!




Just now change ALL my cable to pixelgen and it resolve all my problem that i face in all my source never been quite good as now when i used them just this matter and it resolve with a silly thing just go back and play and go back again to the main menu and done.. every thing as swiss watch 

With my pervious hdmi cable all the source I have make my life hard and never watch a single movie without any problem so Just when I update to 12.2 this thing happen and only in netflix even my movies in apple works fine zero problem just netflix and only as i mention it resolve with silly thing 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dinamigym

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Apple TV 4k Issues - Use Belkin 8k HDMI Cable
> For those of us with the Apple 4k TV:
> 
> With my Sony VW5000ES projector & Lumagen Radiance Pro: I like to watch Star Trek Discovery on CBS All Access, which here in US is only broadcast in 1080i, having my Apple 4k TV set at 1080p. I also prefer 1080p output for other HD programming on my Apple 4k TV. But whenever I switch to or from 1080p or 4k for video, I get issues with the video picture getting way too big or where the remote doesn't work except for speech and I have to use speech to go into Settings and turn off the voice accessibility which I never turned on!
> 
> However, Apple recommends and sells on their website (and Amazon) the following 2M 8k HDMI cable for their Apple 4k TV:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> I have gone in and switched to every video resolution possible and not had one issue. So you may want to try this cable!


+1 one for the Belkin 8k cable. Had a ton of 5000, Lumagen, and Apple TV issues. Appeared almost unusable at times. Cable seems to have magically solved them all!


----------



## fatherom

That amazon link doesn't work. Can you re-post it?


----------



## dinamigym

fatherom said:


> That amazon link doesn't work. Can you re-post it?




Here you go....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B075N83B9X?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_pd_title


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

I am still considering something like a Lumagen Pro to add to my projector (JVC RS4500/Panamorph Paladin). 

A calibration client of mine has one and while he loves what it does, his seems to be fairly "glitchy" in the sense that while he can fix what doesn't work, it is, according to him, anything but wife friendly.

I would be interested in other's experience along these lines.

I ask because while I, too, can probably "fix it", I no longer have any interest in buying stuff that is not, for the most part. "set it and forget it".

Thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

audioguy said:


> I am still considering something like a Lumagen Pro to add to my projector (JVC RS4500/Panamorph Paladin).
> 
> A calibration client of mine has one and while he loves what it does, his seems to be fairly "glitchy" in the sense that while he can fix what doesn't work, it is, according to him, anything but wife friendly.
> 
> I would be interested in other's experience along these lines.
> 
> I ask because while I, too, can probably "fix it", I no longer have any interest in buying stuff that is not, for the most part. "set it and forget it".
> 
> Thanks



I have installed hundreds of Radiance Pro's....it is set and forget. There is no need to be constantly playing with things. In UK JVC actually started selling the RS4500 with Radiance Pro's specifically because it improved the reliability of their projectors HDMI handshaking, the increase in picture quality is just icing on the cake.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Audioguy; a Harmony remote (or similar) is the answer. 

I have my various activities set up to include changing the Memory I'm using in the Lumagen. Sure it took some setting up to start with, but now it is pretty much set and forget especially with the dynamic tone mapping (I don't feel the need to keep fiddling about with settings). My wife uses the Harmony remote and is completely unaware of the Lumagen.


----------



## thrang

Gordon Fraser said:


> I have installed hundreds of Radiance Pro's....it is set and forget. There is no need to be constantly playing with things. In UK JVC actually started selling the RS4500 with Radiance Pro's specifically because it improved the reliability of their projectors HDMI handshaking, the increase in picture quality is just icing on the cake.


Ehhhh.....? Radiance is a great box, but HDMI is far from rock-solid..


----------



## audioguy

thrang said:


> Ehhhh.....? Radiance is a great box, but HDMI is far from rock-solid..


So how do you deal with it when HDMI issues strike?


----------



## hellride

audioguy said:


> I am still considering something like a Lumagen Pro to add to my projector (JVC RS4500/Panamorph Paladin).
> 
> A calibration client of mine has one and while he loves what it does, his seems to be fairly "glitchy" in the sense that while he can fix what doesn't work, it is, according to him, anything but wife friendly.
> 
> I would be interested in other's experience along these lines.
> 
> I ask because while I, too, can probably "fix it", I no longer have any interest in buying stuff that is not, for the most part. "set it and forget it".
> 
> Thanks


The Pro is a great unit. But it is everything but wife friendly. Recently we had a lot of faulty firmware releases / buggy implementations. 

The list of problems in beta is endless, just to name a few:

Hdmi handshake issues , aspect ratios (wrong aspects/ bad auto detection), audio dropouts, faulty 18 Ghz soft & hardware, no image/picture loss and so on.

You can read through all of this yourself on the Lumagen Update/Support website.

Sometimes updates cause unrelated problems and whilst you wanted others to do the testing of a new release, the Pro community is not that big that errors are found immediately. It´s a lot of communicating problems with Lumagen directly.

Would I buy the Pro again at the beginning of beta? Definitely not! 

Would I buy it at this this stage? Yes, if you have the passion for it and the will to put some time into it.

Never update the pro before watching a movie with the wife or friends!


----------



## SJHT

I’ve never had any HDMI issues with the Pro and the Sony 885 even running the latest firmware. The opposite was true when I had my previous JVC projector. Was a nightmare. Praying for syncing when I had guests over to watch a movie.... . Seems that some of the HDMI issues must include displays as they have older HDMI components or who knows.... It is great that the Lumagen folks continue to support and make allowances for their customer base. I have seen specific notes on the firmware for changes to accommodate X components issues. Even keeping previous HDMI code around. What other company would do all of this..... If you want a Pro in a new setup with few issues, I would talk to the Lumagen folks to see what components they might recommend based upon their experience as a data point. SJ


----------



## audioguy

hellride said:


> Would I buy the Pro again at the beginning of beta? Definitely not!
> 
> Would I buy it at this this stage? *Yes, if you have the passion for it and the will to put some time into it*.


So even if I didn't install one at the beginning of a beta release, would it then be wife friendly? It appears some folks seem to have no issues and others, do have issues.


----------



## Eventidal

audioguy said:


> So even if I didn't install one at the beginning of a beta release, would it then be wife friendly? It appears some folks seem to have no issues and others, do have issues.


Beta is ongoing since three years or so and yet there are many more things on the implementation list...


----------



## audioguy

Eventidal said:


> Beta is ongoing since three years or so and yet there are many more things on the implementation list...


Which seems to imply it will never be particularly user friendly. Even without one of those in my chain, I have HDMI issues. Oh well.


----------



## mikela

SJHT said:


> I’ve never had any HDMI issues with the Pro and the Sony 885 even running the latest firmware. The opposite was true when I had my previous JVC projector. Was a nightmare. Praying for syncing when I had guests over to watch a movie.... .


I am pretty sure this is inherent to the JVC. I had the exact same experience with my RS600. Putting an HDFury Integral at the input to the JVC solved my sync issues.


----------



## loggeo

audioguy said:


> Which seems to imply it will never be particularly user friendly. Even without one of those in my chain, I have HDMI issues. Oh well.


I have owned many generations of Lumagen products. I simply cannot do without. Mainly because it can help get the best out of my displays.
If you like video calibration and fine tuning (just like you do for audio), you will eventually love it.
I, too, am not fond of its hdmi boards. I have struggled and (still do) with hdmi sinking issues. And it is hard to accept that it is a cable issue when i have tried countless times the same cables at 18 Gbps bypassing lumagen.
If you plan on hiring a professional and getting the suggested hdmi cables, it could be as easy as using the memory buttons.


----------



## audioguy

loggeo said:


> I have owned many generations of Lumagen products. I simply cannot do without. Mainly because it can help get the best out of my displays.
> If you like video calibration and fine tuning (just like you do for audio), you will eventually love it.
> I, too, am not fond of its hdmi boards. I have struggled and (still do) with hdmi sinking issues. And it is hard to accept that it is a cable issue when i have tried countless times the same cables at 18 Gbps bypassing lumagen.
> If you plan on hiring a professional and getting the suggested hdmi cables, it could be as easy as using the memory buttons.


For all I know about audio, I know close to zero about video. I pay to have my projector properly calibrated and would do the same if I were to get a Lumagen. But given the time delay to get a calibrator here, I would like to be able to at least take advantage of the tone mapping functionality prior to getting the entire system calibrated!


----------



## thrang

mikela said:


> I am pretty sure this is inherent to the JVC. I had the exact same experience with my RS600. Putting an HDFury Integral at the input to the JVC solved my sync issues.


No, I have a Sony 5000 and have to use a Vertex between the Radiance and the projector to have 96% reliability. So it’s not a JVC issue. Or a Sony issue.


----------



## mikela

thrang said:


> No, I have a Sony 5000 and have to use a Vertex between the Radiance and the projector to have 96% reliability. So it’s not a JVC issue. Or a Sony issue.


Sounds more endemic than I thought.


----------



## kaotikr1

audioguy said:


> Which seems to imply it will never be particularly user friendly. Even without one of those in my chain, I have HDMI issues. Oh well.




I don’t have any issues and the Lumagen is very transparent in my setup unless I’m messing with settings. I can go months without needing to touch it and it’s still working fine. It does time a little bit of time to setup and get familiar with the menu but then it should be set and forget unless you want to tinker.


----------



## audioguy

mikela said:


> I am pretty sure this is inherent to the JVC. I had the exact same experience with my RS600. Putting an HDFury Integral at the input to the JVC solved my sync issues.


I happen to have an Integral laying around not being used. So what setting would I use to address these miserable HDMI issues?


----------



## bobof

I've found the 18G output to be best described as "touchy", more so than any other piece of 18G kit I have with the same 18G certified cables. The only 18G input device that really seems to not mind it is an Atlona "18G" HDR HDbaseT transmitter I have (HDR-EX-70-2PS), so I'm glad that is the way I'm connecting to my display... The latest firmware in both the Atlona and 18G output microcode seem to be robust for me, feeding into a JVC DLA-X7900. I used to have the first release of HDfury Vertex and that didn't like the Pro output much either. I do have a preference to have genlock on, which might exasperate matters.

Outside of the above it is reliable in my system, which is a family cinema room and my kids and wife operate it seamlessly via a Harmony remote control, with automated masking and projector HDR mode switching courtesy of a Raspberry Pi parsing the RS232 status output from the Pro. There is the odd interoperability glitch still (such as the ongoing problems with audio glitching with some HDR AppleTV4K content) but in that particular case I'm prepared to lay most of the blame at Apple's door as they're not playing ball with their metadata.


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> I happen to have an Integral laying around not being used. So what setting would I use to address these miserable HDMI issues?




Just start with one familiar with the lumagen setup and 3D LUT calibration and I will be pretty sure that when u look to an HDR image u will hold ur head and say WoooW it’s one of the best purchase I done and I consider it as the trinnov but in video arena


----------



## thrang

audioguy said:


> I happen to have an Integral laying around not being used. So what setting would I use to address these miserable HDMI issues?


With my Vertex, I just leave it on default settings - I dint think the issue is signal format related - just that the 18 ghz outputs on the Radiance are very sensitive to god knows what, and the Vertex handshake seems more robust. 

Having said that, I must hard power on my Radiance at the end of my boot cycle to make this work. Soft start is not as reliable.

Don't get me wrong, its a great box for CMS, dynamic tone mapping, aspect control and many other things and I would always want one on the mix. But its HDMI chip vendor seems to be less than ideal for a lot of playback chains. Any source, and at least three different pre-pros, in any connection combination and with nearly any HDMI cable, reliably sync with the 5000 without the Radiance. With the Radiance, I must spin some plates like I'm on the Ed Sullivan show...


----------



## mikela

audioguy said:


> I happen to have an Integral laying around not being used. So what setting would I use to address these miserable HDMI issues?


Here are my settings:














































If you have a SN1 device use the bottom input.


----------



## cargen

mikela said:


> If you have a SN1 device use the bottom input.


Please define what a "SN1 device" is.

Thanks.


----------



## mikela

cargen said:


> Please define what a "SN1 device" is.
> 
> Thanks.


It's the serial number of the device. You either have SN1 or SN2. The number on the back of the device starts out as 01 or 02.


----------



## mikela

Anyone using the Tributaries cable that Jim recommended? If so, are you still having HDMI sync issues?


----------



## mikela

bobof said:


> The only 18G input device that really seems to not mind it is an Atlona "18G" HDR HDbaseT transmitter I have (HDR-EX-70-2PS)


The only issue I have with the current wave of HDbaseT solutions is that they all use compression. It is claimed to be indiscernible to the user. The HDFury Maestro is the only HDbaseT solution claiming to be lossless. However, it is way more than I want to spend.


----------



## jbrinegar

I have had my lumagen for a couple of weeks now and have been very happy so far. 

Ive been using it with my JVC rs2000 and my panasonic ub820/direct tv/apple tv 4k/xbox one X/PS4 pro.

Luckily Im happy to report no sync issues. It takes about 10-15 secs to sync, but it works everytime. It syncs a little quicker with my sony 885es, but not by much.

Im hooked up different than most ( I have all my devices running to my anthem AVR passthru then a single output to my Lumagen then output to my projector, all with cert premium monoprice cables) so I can keep my AVR OSD. 

Im just thrilled with the HDR tone mapping.

Im using dynamic tone mapping sdh2020 on "8".

Is it recommended to also set the HDR intensity mapping as well? Just experimenting, I like it set to about 800 nits. Does that sound about right for others with a similar set up to mine (JVC rs2000/135 inch diagonal 16x9 neve screen in a light controlled room)?

Thanks for any advice!


----------



## bobof

mikela said:


> Anyone using the Tributaries cable that Jim recommended? If so, are you still having HDMI sync issues?


Interesting - unless their web information is out of date they are all long length active copper solutions without HDMI.org "hologram" compliance labels. Tributaries guarantee them to 18G but they're only actually certified to the HDMI.org 10.2G level (I guess because they are active with oversize connectors and an external power connection).
https://www.tributariescable.com/products/UHDT


----------



## mikela

Apparently Jim thinks enough of them to carry their product.


----------



## bobof

mikela said:


> The only issue I have with the current wave of HDbaseT solutions is that they all use compression. It is claimed to be indiscernible to the user. The HDFury Maestro is the only HDbaseT solution claiming to be lossless. However, it is way more than I want to spend.


The compression used by the best units is the same compression that has been included in the HDMI2.1 standard. I've not seen any ill-effect from it, but that's not to say there isn't some conceivable issue. When you think it is only having to achieve a 2:1 compression it really doesn't need to do that much with most video signals...

I'm still not convinced by the claims from HDFury on this as they are very cagey when pressed on the detail of their definition of Lossless (I've asked a couple of times and might buy it if I was a bit more convinced), but until someone hooks up a capture card through it you might give them the benefit of the doubt. Ask them the direct question and see what they say if that is a part of your purchasing decision.


----------



## mikela

bobof said:


> I'm still not convinced by the claims from HDFury on this as they are very cagey when pressed on the detail of their definition of Lossless (I've asked a couple of times and might buy it if I was a bit more convinced), but until someone hooks up a capture card through it you might give them the benefit of the doubt. Ask them the direct question and see what they say if that is a part of your purchasing decision.


They are playing the proprietary card...don't expect an answer.


----------



## GerryWaz

*"*



mikela said:


> Anyone using the Tributaries cable that Jim recommended? If so, are you still having HDMI sync issues?



Yes, I use the cable and no sync issues--although I may not be a "typical user" as I am not using the Radiance with a projector. I'm using it with my Sony Z9D LED TV.


----------



## bobof

GerryWaz said:


> Yes, I use the cable and no sync issues--although I may not be a "typical user" as I am not using the Radiance with a projector. I'm using it with my Sony Z9D LED TV.


Which model / length are you using out of interest? Looking at @mikela's links I see two families that were recommended.


----------



## GerryWaz

bobof said:


> Which model / length are you using out of interest? Looking at @*mikela* 's links I see two families that were recommended.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UULJGMW/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Kris Deering

I always find it interesting to see the complaints about HDMI and picture issues with the Lumagen. I think I can safely say that I change my setup more often than just about anybody here. In the last year I've had at least five different projectors in and out of my room, about 4-5 different disc spinners and a host of streaming devices. I am CONSTANTLY changing things for reviews and evaluations. The amount of times I've ever had an issue getting an image out of my Radiance I could probably count on one hand and still have fingers to spare. So the idea that people have all these issues always causes me to scratch my head. 

Jim has said time and again that the edge rates out of the Lumagen are on the high side, meaning that cable selection and length are very important. Some seem to just ignore this or try and argue it out. I use 6-foot long certified Monoprice HDMI cables for all input sources and I've NEVER had an issue, even hot plugging in and out. I have a 25-foot run to the projector mount, which I use a Monoprice for as well, no issues at all for the last 8 or so years I've used it. I constantly go to clients homes that are using 3-foot cables, off brand cables, splitters for this and that and a multitude of other things that are far from simple installations. I can't count how many times I've swapped some high priced cable with a simple $6 Monoprice and things work just fine from there. 

In the projection world there are a couple projectors that have pretty sketchy HDMI input designs. The JVC RSx00 series and the Sony 5000ES come to mind directly. These show up a lot in client's homes and seem to be more sensitive to just about everything. I've had the Sony 885 and 995 in my room and didn't have ANY HDMI issues, so I think it is something that Sony have addressed in future designs. I had the RS600 for nearly 9 months with no issues, I always used HDMI input 1 and reliability was excellent for me. I haven't had to resort to reducing the inputs or outputs to 9 Ghz or using older microcode. I have an NX9 at the house now, haven't had a single HDMI hiccup yet. I'll be testing some BenQ projectors in the upcoming weeks and will see how they fare, although I didn't have any issues with last year's BenQ (HT9050). 

So in the end I typically suggest MINIMUM 6-foot length Monoprice CERTIFIED HDMI cables for connecting sources. These are pretty much bullet proof and cost a fraction of the price of most cables. For runs greater than 25 ft, use the Monoprice fiber cables (Models 21566 thru 21569) or the Ruipro Ultra Slims (10, 15 and 30 meter designs). Take the rest out, plug the Radiance to the display with NOTHING connected to it to start. Make sure it synchs with the projector just fine on its own. Then plug each source in one at a time and make sure they work fine. I've done this numerous times for my clients and with the right cables I rarely ever have an issue. For clients that buy their Lumagen directly from me, I setup the Lumagen during the installation or if I'm not going to be the one that is there for the setup/calibration, I setup the Lumagen before I ship it to them, delivering plug and play results with little issue. I always suggest what they use for cabling before hand to eliminate as many prospective issues as possible, and I rarely get calls from clients needing help or having connectivity issues.


----------



## darksets

mikela said:


> Anyone using the Tributaries cable that Jim recommended? If so, are you still having HDMI sync issues?


I'm using the active version of the Titan cables, 12m long to connect the Pro to my projector. I'm having a quite stable connection, never have any issues past the power up stage. On a rare occasion there's a glitch when turning everything on and it hasn't happened for weeks now. I don't even know if it's related to that cable or to the connection between the Pro and the other components.


----------



## mikela

darksets said:


> I'm using the active version of the Titan cables


They have several active versions including fiber and metal...which one do you have?


----------



## tcramer

Just checked the Lumagen site and looks like there is a new firmware:

Beta 020619- Fix for audio loss issue using netlifx. Many improvements to Dynamic Tone Mapping. Added dynamic settings to left arrow pop-up HDR menu. Some other small fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .

Edit: Just downloaded and am trying it out with my Sony 5000 projector. Not sure if it's something in my settings, but now with DTM enabled, even on 1, it is over-brightening everything and it looks terrible. I'll have to do some more testing tomorrow.


----------



## Eventidal

Testing this new software since one week and DTM works fine in my setup.

The new HDR menu is great (arrow left). Everything in one spot and ratio covers the whole nit range.


----------



## darksets

mikela said:


> They have several active versions including fiber and metal...which one do you have?



I have the metal one. UHDT Titan which is passive up to 10 meters and active 12 and above. I have the active one.


----------



## mobetterblues

I've loaded the new firmware 020619 and I have no obvious or otherwise issues to report.
And I'm certainly liking the new menu.


----------



## Wookii

Do we know what has changed on the latest version of DTM? Anyone have any specific issues that they have found it resolves?


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 020619*



tcramer said:


> Just checked the Lumagen site and looks like there is a new firmware:
> 
> Beta 020619- Fix for audio loss issue using netlifx. Many improvements to Dynamic Tone Mapping. Added dynamic settings to left arrow pop-up HDR menu. Some other small fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> Edit: Just downloaded and am trying it out with my Sony 5000 projector. Not sure if it's something in my settings, but now with DTM enabled, even on 1, it is over-brightening everything and it looks terrible. I'll have to do some more testing tomorrow.





mobetterblues said:


> I've loaded the new firmware 020619 and I have no obvious or otherwise issues to report.
> And I'm certainly liking the new menu.





Wookii said:


> Do we know what has changed on the latest version of DTM? Anyone have any specific issues that they have found it resolves?


I haven't uploaded new FW yet, but am very interested -- especially in FW stability since I have a paid calibration tomorrow morning.


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> Is anyone using a Denon AVR-X3500H with the Pro?
> 
> I am experiencing intermittent audio/video blanking that lasts around 10 seconds with multiple sources.
> 
> I also have a 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR, so was thinking that component may be the cause. I am using an HDMI voltage inserter on the cable at the Pro output, because without it the video signal flashes repeatedly. I attempted to move the HDMI voltage inserter to the sink end (the AVR input) yesterday, but that caused constant audio issues.
> 
> I haven’t made any changes to the AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue.
> 
> Any input/advice is appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





jrp said:


> I am probably duplicating other replies, but I recommend getting rid of the voltage-inserter between the Pro and the RUIPRO. The Pro has plenty of HDMI standby output power to drive the RUIPRO, and the inserter is nothing more than a discontinuity in the HDMI transmission lines. The discontinuity it creates may be the cause of your dropouts, and in any case is a bad idea for a 4k HDMI connection.
> 
> I recommend against fiber cables for connections carrying audio since they tend to have more jitter than metal only HDMI cables. I also recommend against such a long cable for audio. Audio is much more sensitive than video for HDMI. If you need to go 50 feet from the Pro for the output carrying audio I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" all metal cable. I do not have any jitter data on this versus the RUIPRO but I have noticed the HDMI connection locks faster using the UHDT than the RUIPRO. I believe this is in part due to it having less jitter, but might just be it is a clean signal. Either way I prefer the Tributaries Titan, especially for audio connections, while still recommending the RUIPRO as an excellent cable.
> 
> It sounds like you pass video through the AVR. I recommend the Pro drive the Projector/TV directly and not through the AVR. I suspect if you send video from the Pro to the TV/projector directly, and audio to the AVR, both using Titan cables, you will improve your reliability. Of course I cannot be certain, but this change in connectivity has resolved dropouts in other systems.





giomania said:


> Thanks Jim.
> 
> I will try removing it again, but the two times I have tried to remove the voltage inserter previously, there is constant flashing of the signal on and off. I should probably try different HDMI inputs on the AVR to make it a thorough test.
> 
> The reason for testing the other inputs is that Denon has recommended in the past with other AVR’s to use the HDMI input that is physically closest to the output to mitigate issues with 4K HDR source devices.
> 
> I want the AVR volume display on my TV and am willing to live with some compromises to achieve that goal.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





giomania said:


> I wanted to post an update that I solved my problem and was able to remove the HDMI voltage inserter by switching the Ruipro cable to a different input on the AVR, a Denon AVR-X3500H.
> 
> As noted above, Denon has recommended in the past with other AVR’s to use the HDMI input that is physically closest to the output to mitigate issues with 4K HDR source devices, so I was using input #7 (CD) since I purchased the AVR, as it was the closest input to the outputs. I was using it with the same Ruipro 50-foot cable and the Lumagen Radiance 2041 without the voltage inserter without issues.
> 
> I noted above that I would try the other inputs on the AVR to make the test thorough, and I finally got around to that task, and here are the detailed results. First I removed the voltage inserter from the source end (output of the Lumagen Radiance Pro) of the cable.
> 
> HDMI Input #1 (CBL/SAT)
> This is farthest input (in physical distance) from the HDMI outputs on the receiver. This input resulted in a blanking video signal about every minute, and intermittent audio interruptions that occurred around every 10 seconds or so. The audio interruptions were very brief (milliseconds?), but were frequent enough to be annoying.
> 
> HDMI Input #2 (DVD)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> HDMI Input #3 (Blu-ray)
> This input resulted in no video or audio blanking.
> 
> HDMI Input #4 (GAME)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> HDMI Input #5 (MEDIA PLAYER)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> HDMI Input #6 (AUX2)
> This input resulted in no picture at all; it never synched. I verified the input was set to use HDMI 6.
> 
> HDMI Input #7 (CD)
> This input resulted in very frequent video and audio blanking every few seconds.
> 
> I don't really see any pattern to the above results, but I am glad I was able to remove the voltage inserter.
> 
> Mark





giomania said:


> While the major intermittent audio/video blanking noted above has been solved, I have now turned my attention to a smaller, but still annoying problem with a single source.
> 
> I have a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR that has fairly frequent (~1-2 minute intervals) but intermittent audio blanking that lasts about 2-3 seconds, as well as occasional video blanking that lasts around 5-7 seconds. This is the only source that exhibits these symptoms, and these symptoms were not present when the same equipment was used with the Radiance 2441. I am assuming there is some minor syncing issue between the Pro and the Denon AVR-X3500H.
> 
> While we could point to the 50 foot Ruipro hybrid fiber cable in between the pro and the AVR as the culprit and call it a day, however, *I did not experience these issues with the Radiance 2441 in the system*. Therefore, I am thinking that Lumagen can fix this, as they have done for other offending source devices. Before I send an email to report this, I thought I would ask here:
> 
> Is anyone else using a TiVo Roamio Pro DVR with the Radiance Pro?
> 
> The symptoms occur with live TV or recorded content. I haven’t made any changes to the TiVo or AVR settings in an attempt to mitigate this issue, but I don't know what changes I could make anyway.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark





Kris Deering said:


> I always find it interesting to see the complaints about HDMI and picture issues with the Lumagen. I think I can safely say that I change my setup more often than just about anybody here. In the last year I've had at least five different projectors in and out of my room, about 4-5 different disc spinners and a host of streaming devices. I am CONSTANTLY changing things for reviews and evaluations. The amount of times I've ever had an issue getting an image out of my Radiance I could probably count on one hand and still have fingers to spare. So the idea that people have all these issues always causes me to scratch my head.
> 
> Jim has said time and again that the edge rates out of the Lumagen are on the high side, meaning that cable selection and length are very important. Some seem to just ignore this or try and argue it out. I use 6-foot long certified Monoprice HDMI cables for all input sources and I've NEVER had an issue, even hot plugging in and out. I have a 25-foot run to the projector mount, which I use a Monoprice for as well, no issues at all for the last 8 or so years I've used it. I constantly go to clients homes that are using 3-foot cables, off brand cables, splitters for this and that and a multitude of other things that are far from simple installations. I can't count how many times I've swapped some high priced cable with a simple $6 Monoprice and things work just fine from there.
> 
> In the projection world there are a couple projectors that have pretty sketchy HDMI input designs. The JVC RSx00 series and the Sony 5000ES come to mind directly. These show up a lot in client's homes and seem to be more sensitive to just about everything. I've had the Sony 885 and 995 in my room and didn't have ANY HDMI issues, so I think it is something that Sony have addressed in future designs. I had the RS600 for nearly 9 months with no issues, I always used HDMI input 1 and reliability was excellent for me. I haven't had to resort to reducing the inputs or outputs to 9 Ghz or using older microcode. I have an NX9 at the house now, haven't had a single HDMI hiccup yet. I'll be testing some BenQ projectors in the upcoming weeks and will see how they fare, although I didn't have any issues with last year's BenQ (HT9050).
> 
> So in the end I typically suggest MINIMUM 6-foot length Monoprice CERTIFIED HDMI cables for connecting sources. These are pretty much bullet proof and cost a fraction of the price of most cables. For runs greater than 25 ft, use the Monoprice fiber cables (Models 21566 thru 21569) or the Ruipro Ultra Slims (10, 15 and 30 meter designs). Take the rest out, plug the Radiance to the display with NOTHING connected to it to start. Make sure it synchs with the projector just fine on its own. Then plug each source in one at a time and make sure they work fine. I've done this numerous times for my clients and with the right cables I rarely ever have an issue. For clients that buy their Lumagen directly from me, I setup the Lumagen during the installation or if I'm not going to be the one that is there for the setup/calibration, I setup the Lumagen before I ship it to them, delivering plug and play results with little issue. I always suggest what they use for cabling before hand to eliminate as many prospective issues as possible, and I rarely get calls from clients needing help or having connectivity issues.


Hi Kris, 

While I don't have major HDMI sync issues like some users, I did have a problem syncing when I installed the Radiance Pro, which has since been resolved. I do have one remaining *issue with one source device that did not exist until the Radiance 2441 was replaced with the Radiance Pro 4446*. My TiVo Roamio Pro device exhibits frequent intermittent audio skips, and less intermittent video blanking. I have quoted the posts above related to the issue if you care to read about it. I did nothing but swap the Lumagen devices and the issue manifested, so the Pro caused it. That said, whether or not the Pro is the problem or the source device is now suddenly misbehaving is up for debate. 

Since this is in the family room system, and we don't watch TV that much there, troubleshooting has taken me a long time, as you can see from the date ranges of the posts above . The only change made to the Radiance Pro settings in an attempt to fix this issue was setting the TiVo input on the Radiance Pro to limit it to 1080p as recommended by Jim to another user for solving another problem with a different (but also older) HDMI source device. I am using source direct (essentially) from the TiVo, as I have it set to send 480i, 720p, and 1080i resolutions to benefit from the Radiance Pro's de-interlacing and scaling prowess. I did think about changing the audio setting from bitstream to PCM in the TiVo, but have not tried that yet. 

I just can't get past the fact that this all worked fine with the Radiance 2441 in the same exact system with the same exact cables. If I watched more TV in the family room, I would be more inclined to troubleshoot and probably not have let this fester so long. 

Mark


----------



## mhafner

Wookii said:


> Do we know what has changed on the latest version of DTM? Anyone have any specific issues that they have found it resolves?


Blade Runner credits are more stable but still one instance of flicker. Levels above 5 can clip high brightness detail severely (see "Starship Troopers Tristar Logo").


----------



## Colozeus

Hello folks, 
Does the radiance pro have a passthrough mode that disables all processing?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Colozeus said:


> Hello folks,
> Does the radiance pro have a passthrough mode that disables all processing?



No.


You can create a memory that has no alterations but there is no "bypass" as it were. It all goes through the main processing pipeline.


----------



## bferbrache

tcramer said:


> Just checked the Lumagen site and looks like there is a new firmware:
> 
> Beta 020619- Fix for audio loss issue using netlifx. Many improvements to Dynamic Tone Mapping. Added dynamic settings to left arrow pop-up HDR menu. Some other small fixes. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at
> 
> Edit: Just downloaded and am trying it out with my Sony 5000 projector. Not sure if it's something in my settings, but now with DTM enabled, even on 1, it is over-brightening everything and it looks terrible. I'll have to do some more testing tomorrow.


I have tried the Beta 020619 and like you I am seeing an overly bright picture with HDR sources from both my Oppo and my Apple TV. Gone back to 011119 and all seems ok again, I will email Lumagen support with my findings but my system doesn't seem to like the new firmware. Panasonic FZ802 OLED is my screen 
Cheers
Brian


----------



## tcramer

bferbrache said:


> I have tried the Beta 020619 and like you I am seeing an overly bright picture with HDR sources from both my Oppo and my Apple TV. Gone back to 011119 and all seems ok again, I will email Lumagen support with my findings but my system doesn't seem to like the new firmware. Panasonic FZ802 OLED is my screen
> Cheers
> Brian


I'm going to do some more testing tonight, but will probably roll back. To do that, do you just download and apply the previous firmware or are there special steps for the roll back?

Hopefully I'll get some other 5000 owners to chime in - I know there are a handful out there.

The wife is having a movie night on Thursday so I better have it looking good by the, current version or previous.


----------



## bferbrache

tcramer said:


> I'm going to do some more testing tonight, but will probably roll back. To do that, do you just download and apply the previous firmware or are there special steps for the roll back?
> 
> Hopefully I'll get some other 5000 owners to chime in - I know there are a handful out there.
> 
> The wife is having a movie night on Thursday so I better have it looking good by the, current version or previous.


I just loaded the previous firmware and it is looking good again, seems a bit strange if others are using the new firmware without issue, I'm sure Lumagen will come back to me with some suggestions


----------



## Colozeus

Gordon Fraser said:


> No.
> 
> 
> You can create a memory that has no alterations but there is no "bypass" as it were. It all goes through the main processing pipeline.




So how much i put lag would be added if i have zero alterations enabled? I’m assuming it has to add some. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jbrinegar

In regards to the dynamic tone mapping and the HDR intensity mapping, do you use both together?

For example, I have the dynamic mapping on 8, and the intensity mapping on 700 nits. Is that correct? Or are you supposed to turn off the intensity mapping when using the dynamic mapping?

Thanks for any advice!


----------



## Craig Peer

mobetterblues said:


> I've loaded the new firmware 020619 and I have no obvious or otherwise issues to report.
> And I'm certainly liking the new menu.


What display are you using ? I have folks coming for a movie tonight, so I think I'll download the new firmware after they leave ! Then I can test it with a 4K Blu-ray I just watched.


----------



## mhafner

bferbrache said:


> I just loaded the previous firmware and it is looking good again, seems a bit strange if others are using the new firmware without issue, I'm sure Lumagen will come back to me with some suggestions


 It's a bug in the firmware. I started with normal looking video but when I changed the gamma into LUT from SDR to HDR it got too bright, as expected, but setting it back to SDR did not fix it anymore. It stayed bright till I rebooted. So skip this firmware. It needs fixing.


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> It's a bug in the firmware. I started with normal looking video but when I changed the gamma into LUT from SDR to HDR it got too bright, as expected, but setting it back to SDR did not fix it anymore. It stayed bright till I rebooted. So skip this firmware. It needs fixing.


Sounds like it might only be an issue then if you need to have HDR gamma in your LUT?


----------



## darksets

bferbrache said:


> I just loaded the previous firmware and it is looking good again, seems a bit strange if others are using the new firmware without issue, I'm sure Lumagen will come back to me with some suggestions


Interesting. I thought it was just my imagination when the picture seemed brighter to me. I reduced the laser level of my 995 to 80 from 100 for HDR, thinking that the new firmware is so much better that I don't need all that light. It seems there's more to it...


----------



## Kris Deering

darksets said:


> Interesting. I thought it was just my imagination when the picture seemed brighter to me. I reduced the laser level of my 995 to 80 from 100 for HDR, thinking that the new firmware is so much better that I don't need all that light. It seems there's more to it...


The difference in light between 100 and 80 is only about 10% at the most, so you should be seeing barely any difference as is.


----------



## darksets

Kris Deering said:


> The difference in light between 100 and 80 is only about 10% at the most, so you should be seeing barely any difference as is.


True, the difference is small. But it's definitely noticeable. I can switch between the two with a button push and it's obvious. With the previous firmware 100 looked better but with this one I prefer 80. It's still a very early impression though.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I too have the bright screen issue and i sent Pat and Jim pictures plus my config yesterday afternoon. They have found the issue and a fix is on the way.


----------



## hellride

audioguy said:


> Which seems to imply it will never be particularly user friendly. Even without one of those in my chain, I have HDMI issues. Oh well.


You see, another firmware release with problems.

This thing eats up time! Therefore it keeps constantly getting better.


----------



## Mike_WI

mhafner said:


> It's a bug in the firmware. I started with normal looking video but when I changed the gamma into LUT from SDR to HDR it got too bright, as expected, but setting it back to SDR did not fix it anymore. It stayed bright till I rebooted. So skip this firmware. It needs fixing.





Gordon Fraser said:


> I too have the bright screen issue and i sent Pat and Jim pictures plus my config yesterday afternoon. They have found the issue and a fix is on the way.


Thanks for the info and confirmation.
I have a professional calibration starting in 45 min.
Holding off on FW update then.


----------



## SJHT

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for the info and confirmation.
> I have a professional calibration starting in 45 min.
> Holding off on FW update then.


I’m not an expert, but I believe the base calibration shouldn’t be impacted with changes in IM/DTM. However, that might depend on how the calibration is done. I think Kris Deering told me something like that when he did my setup... SJ


----------



## Mike_WI

SJHT said:


> I’m not an expert, but I believe the base calibration shouldn’t be impacted with changes in IM/DTM. However, that might depend on how the calibration is done. I think Kris Deering told me something like that when he did my setup... SJ


Thanks. I think that is likely true.
Didn't want to insert something potentially buggy right before a calibration.
Just saw a post about Kris Deering Colorado JVC and Sony projector shoot out. Sounds cool


----------



## audioguy

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for the info and confirmation.
> I have a professional calibration starting in 45 min.
> Holding off on FW update then.


Who is doing your calibration?


----------



## Mike_WI

audioguy said:


> Who is doing your calibration?


Mike @desertdome


----------



## tcramer

New firmware just dropped to fix the brightness issues with DTM:

Beta 020819- Fixup for issue causing overly bright result with DTM (Dynamic Tone Mapping). Fix for another bug that in some cases gave incorrect DTM results. A quality improvement for DTM. Fixup for bringing up test patterns when in DTM mode. Fix for getting a message in menu that settings have changed when they hadn't been. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .


----------



## mhafner

tcramer said:


> New firmware just dropped to fix the brightness issues with DTM:
> .


The bug is fixed.


----------



## mikela

mhafner said:


> The bug is fixed.


Have you been able to note any improvements in DTM?


----------



## mhafner

mikela said:


> Have you been able to note any improvements in DTM?


I think there is less clipping of bright detail with the agressive parameters I use (level 5,shape 3, transition 10, 300 nits).


----------



## Mike_WI

mikela said:


> Have you been able to note any improvements in DTM?





mhafner said:


> I think there is less clipping of bright detail with the agressive parameters I use (level 5,shape 3, transition 10, 300 nits).


Thanks.
Any new bugs?
I am out later today til Sat at AXPONA, then plan to do FW update Sat or Sun before Sun Game of Thrones watching with multiple people.


----------



## Craig Peer

I didn't have time to install the last firmware update, but I guess it's just as well. I've got 020819 downloaded and ready to install and test out over the weekend !


----------



## jaychatbonneau

How long will it probably take to get the firmware out of beta and into production releases?

Also, how well is the static HDR to SDR tone mapping working now? What are your opinions about PQ with static tone mapping versus dynamic tone mapping? Is static tone mapping less buggy?

Thank you very much!

Jay


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jaychatbonneau said:


> How long will it probably take to get the firmware out of beta and into production releases?
> 
> Also, how well is the static HDR to SDR tone mapping working now? What are your opinions about PQ with static tone mapping versus dynamic tone mapping? Is static tone mapping less buggy?
> 
> Thank you very much!
> 
> Jay



How long till Jim declares firmware non beta is unknown. In the past they called firmware non beta once they put in all the promised features set. With the Pro they decided to start adding in features never offered but that customers were asking for. This has set back the date by probably over 18 months. The reality is that the device is not a beta product and probably hasn't been for 18 months. Yes, they increase the performance with new firmware and that brings out a couple of bugs in some specific systems, then those get fixed in the next few days and after that it is fine until next big firmware release. If you never updated it'd continue to work just fine as many many folk worldwide experience. Prior to the dynamic tone mapping of a week or two the static tone mapping that adapted based on metadata in signal was superior to that in any display...the dynamic adjustment just made it even better. There are a few features not in yet that were promised at launch but how long they take to add is unknown. Demand for the best HDR tone mapping seems to be greater than folk screaming for some noise reduction or 4K sharpness control.


----------



## hellride

4K Sharpness control, PLEASE!


----------



## Ferdy7

hellride said:


> 4K Sharpness control, PLEASE!


+1!!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

hellride said:


> 4K Sharpness control, PLEASE!



Well Jim prioritizes things on basis of what folk ask...so if that's what you want...email Lumagen. I have only ever had a couple of requests for 4K sharpness (both non UK clients) and none for noise reduction....and a couple for picture in picture.....but most folk I see want ultimate HDR tonemapping and larger calibration LUT's. So direct action by emailing lumagen is likely to elicit faster responses to your needs.


----------



## SJHT

I’m still waiting for PiP/PoP!


----------



## Eventidal

Sharpness !!! +1


----------



## KarlKlammer

Noise reduction!


----------



## espny

hellride said:


> 4K Sharpness control, PLEASE!


+1


----------



## bferbrache

tcramer said:


> New firmware just dropped to fix the brightness issues with DTM:
> 
> Beta 020819- Fixup for issue causing overly bright result with DTM (Dynamic Tone Mapping). Fix for another bug that in some cases gave incorrect DTM results. A quality improvement for DTM. Fixup for bringing up test patterns when in DTM mode. Fix for getting a message in menu that settings have changed when they hadn't been. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .


Just loaded this firmware and it looks amazing on my Panasonic 802 OLED, they've sorted the overly bright picture and it looks even better than the last DTM software in my opinion. The Revenant in HDR from the UHD disc looks outstanding, very happy!


----------



## uderman

- pip/pop for 44xx only
- enhancements (noise reduction/ edge enhancement)

I believe these two are the only remaining promised features. 

Jim said many times noise reduction is unlikely to happen. Some sharpness is planned but not top priority. I think Pip will come first once the tone mapping is complete.

I believe pip/pop must come eventually. This feature was the only reason I bought their highest configuration 4449 with 8 inputs and 10 outputs. I could buy the lowest configuration and buy a 4K matrix switch instead. 

Dropping noise reduction from future plans is a little disappointing but I don’t feel that bad about it. I absolutely don’t care for sharpness. 

My vote is for pip/pop


----------



## hellride

Unfortunately pip is only for 444x models....


----------



## darksets

The new DTM is just amazing. I've tested it with my reference HDR discs and it's so good that my projector's light deficiency for HDR is basically irrelevant. As for features like Sharpness Control (euphemism for edge enhancement) and Noise Reduction, I hope they never add them. You'll say you can just turn it off but I believe a product should have an identity and if your identity is great, accurate picture those features don't belong there. I would think less of Lumagen if it offers picture distorting/degrading features, especially if I have to do something to turn them off.


----------



## tcramer

darksets said:


> The new DTM is just amazing. I've tested it with my reference HDR discs and it's so good that my projector's light deficiency for HDR is basically irrelevant. As for features like Sharpness Control (euphemism for edge enhancement) and Noise Reduction, I hope they never add them. You'll say you can just turn it off but I believe a product should have an identity and if your identity is great, accurate picture those features don't belong there. I would think less of Lumagen if it offers picture distorting/degrading features, especially if I have to do something to turn them off.



Yes, agreed. Much better and resolved the brightness issue. It still elevates blacks a touch on dark scenes, but the tradeoff for the brightness of highlights is worth it. I need to mess around with the "Black" setting a bit more - initial testing looks good and it seems to lower the blacks without crushing, which would be incredible if it works consistently for all sources. Need to try this on some dark content.

It's very nice to actually have some scenes somewhat resemble HDR on a projector and not be dark and dingy like they typically are.


----------



## hellride

darksets said:


> I would think less of Lumagen if it offers picture distorting/degrading features, especially if I have to do something to turn them off.


Are you serious??! Just leave them on zero then. I would rather have my Lumagen do it than my projector!


----------



## audioguy

Anyone happen to have an email address for Jim Peterson at Lumagen?

Thanks


----------



## markmon1

jbrinegar said:


> Im hooked up different than most ( I have all my devices running to my anthem AVR passthru then a single output to my Lumagen then output to my projector, all with cert premium monoprice cables) so I can keep my AVR OSD.


Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?


----------



## G-Rex

audioguy said:


> Anyone happen to have an email address for Jim Peterson at Lumagen?
> 
> Thanks


PM sent


----------



## Mike_WI

markmon1 said:


> Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?


If you have an old AVR (like I do) then I output video FROM Lumagen TO AVR.
I lose OSD that way.
With older (XE) Lumagen there was the possibility of a PIP display with OSD from component or composite input back to Lumagen (HDMI gave some sort of loop effect).


----------



## Mike_WI

*Lumagen Lipsync*

In the process of calibration Wed we did a Lumagen reset.

Last night I updated to latest (Beta 020819) FW and looked at HBO.
There is a big lip sync issue.
It wasn't perfect before reset/update, but better.

Any thoughts on what to do with this screen (below)?
I tried turning on but it did some delay/reset function.


----------



## dlinsley

markmon1 said:


> Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?


Jim mentioned this could be the case, and it was for my situation, that taking all sources through the Lumagen might reduce HDMI handshakes. This is certainly true for my DirecTV 4k receiver when switching between channels with different resolutions. I still get AVR OSD feeding the Lumagen output through my Anthem and then onward to the projector.


----------



## uderman

markmon1 said:


> jbrinegar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im hooked up different than most ( I have all my devices running to my anthem AVR passthru then a single output to my Lumagen then output to my projector, all with cert premium monoprice cables) so I can keep my AVR OSD.
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?
Click to expand...

Because AVR might and likely does some processing to the signal. Some color space conversion is typically done to overlay OSD even if all features are disabled. 

I am sure there are some that doesn’t alter the video in anyway. But the video aspect of AVRs are not well documented as video is not their primary focus. 

You can assume it is a bit perfect pass thorough or you be sure it doesn’t even pass through it via routing your video directly to Radiance.


----------



## jbrinegar

tcramer said:


> Yes, agreed. Much better and resolved the brightness issue. It still elevates blacks a touch on dark scenes, but the tradeoff for the brightness of highlights is worth it. I need to mess around with the "Black" setting a bit more - initial testing looks good and it seems to lower the blacks without crushing, which would be incredible if it works consistently for all sources. Need to try this on some dark content.
> 
> It's very nice to actually have some scenes somewhat resemble HDR on a projector and not be dark and dingy like they typically are.


I’ve played with the black setting too. For example,for the opening blade runner credits, the black floor looks much better the more you lower it. But, when I used the masciola disc to check my black levels, it started clipping if I went past -2. 

Overall I really love the DTM. Gotg v2 and pacific rim in particular look amazing. The best I’ve ever seen it. Very happy with it!


----------



## Eventidal

markmon1 said:


> Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?


Because you lose the option to set each input individually with the Lumagen. You might have different sources that require different settings for masking, shrinking, aspects, Darbee, HDR parameters, 3D Luts and so on. Instead of having 16 configurations for four inputs with one input from the AVR you end up having a total of only four configurations (and up to eight with virtual inputs of course). It is also way easier to remember presets for sources on individual inputs and having the ability to label them as such in the Lumagen.


----------



## Wookii

markmon1 said:


> Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?


As others have said, I'd rather have all my sources pass through the Lumagen, and be able to have different settings on a source by source basis (though I think you can probably still do that using virtual inputs), and have the Lumagen simply squirt the audio out to my processor on a separate dedicated output.


----------



## Wookii

darksets said:


> As for features like Sharpness Control (euphemism for edge enhancement) and Noise Reduction, I hope they never add them. You'll say you can just turn it off but I believe a product should have an identity and if your identity is great, accurate picture those features don't belong there. I would think less of Lumagen if it offers picture distorting/degrading features, especially if I have to do something to turn them off.


I would much rather Lumagen added features with the ability to turn them off, than didn't add them at all. Sharpening and edge enhancement can make an improvement in perceived image quality if used judiciously - the enhancement settings in the Panasonic blu-ray players are a good example of that, and provide a welcome increase in the percieved clarity of UHD blu-rays. 

Lumagen has had picture enhancement controls of its own, and also Darby processing, for years now so this isn't something new, like a change in some sort of perceived 'purist' stance. The Radiance processors are designed to give the widest possible breadth of user/installer control and configurability, so I'm not sure how anyone could argue for a feature _not_ to be added. 

If Jim could come up with something similar to Darby processing, for 4K, I'd personally welcome it with open arms!


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> As others have said, I'd rather have all my sources pass through the Lumagen, and be able to have different settings on a source by source basis (though I think you can probably still do that using virtual inputs), and have the Lumagen simply squirt the audio out to my processor on a separate dedicated output.


I am considering acquiring a Lumagen given all of the positive hype over Dynamic Tone Mapping.

So you send video direct to your Z1 and audio to your Trinnov? Any issues with lip sync and if so, do you fix them in the Trinnov or the Lumagen?

Also, is the upgrade to the 18GHz card critical and if so, what benefit does it provide?


----------



## Wookii

audioguy said:


> I am considering acquiring a Lumagen given all of the positive hype over Dynamic Tone Mapping.
> 
> So you send video direct to your Z1 and audio to your Trinnov? Any issues with lip sync and if so, do you fix them in the Trinnov or the Lumagen?


Yep, I've not had a specific issue with lip sync, but both the Radiance and the Altitude have have the ability to adjust audio delay, so if the issue appears it would be easy to deal with.



audioguy said:


> Also, is the upgrade to the 18GHz card critical and if so, what benefit does it provide?


It's not critical, no, it will just limit the maximum signal that you can use from your devices. So all 2160p/24Hz film content will be fine, it will just be 2160p/60Hz content (some streamed content, and some device menus and GUI's) that you'll have to limit to 4:2:0 8bit output.


----------



## Craig Peer

Wookii said:


> As others have said, I'd rather have all my sources pass through the Lumagen, and be able to have different settings on a source by source basis (though I think you can probably still do that using virtual inputs), and have the Lumagen simply squirt the audio out to my processor on a separate dedicated output.


That's also how I have mine hooked up - sources to the Lumagen, video straight out of the Lumagen to my RS4500. Audio only to the receiver. Any problems like audio dropouts etc. were solved by not running video at all thought the receiver. I think that caused HDMI issues. And there are some calibrators that say pre - pros / receivers do effect the video even with " pass through " set, so that question is eliminated. I should have listened to Jim and Kris and set it up like this to begin with. 

So far, the new DTM looks good !!


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone. I'm very interested in buying a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have a few questions to ask.

1.Can the Radiance Pro support HDMI 2.1(48Gbps) in the future(upgradable hardware)?
2.Can the Radiance Pro support Dolby Vision, HDR10+ and HLG in the future(upgradable firmware)?
3.Does the dynamic tone mapping with latest firmware have any bugs or glitches?

I know it's a lot of money to pay, so I hope at least it should have some future proof and no severe bugs or glitches.
Thank you for all your reply.


----------



## markmon1

Craig Peer said:


> That's also how I have mine hooked up - sources to the Lumagen, video straight out of the Lumagen to my RS4500. Audio only to the receiver. Any problems like audio dropouts etc. were solved by not running video at all thought the receiver. I think that caused HDMI issues. And there are some calibrators that say pre - pros / receivers do effect the video even with " pass through " set, so that question is eliminated. I should have listened to Jim and Kris and set it up like this to begin with.
> 
> So far, the new DTM looks good !!


You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.



Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone. I'm very interested in buying a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have a few questions to ask.
> 
> 1.Can the Radiance Pro support HDMI 2.1(48Gbps) in the future(upgradable hardware)?
> 2.Can the Radiance Pro support Dolby Vision, HDR10+ and HLG in the future(upgradable firmware)?
> 3.Does the dynamic tone mapping with latest firmware have any bugs or glitches?
> 
> I know it's a lot of money to pay, so I hope at least it should have some future proof and no severe bugs or glitches.
> Thank you for all your reply.


Dynamic tone mapping is a good replacement for HDR10+ and Dolby vision. It basically does the same thing but possibly better because HDR10+ and DV rely on the mastering engineer carefully measuring each frame where DTM always measures each frame accurately at playback. So I don't think supporting these things is necessary.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

markmon1 said:


> You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.


I've run my AV system this way for a number of years: I don't find any need to see the HUD from my AVR: I have the master volume limit set up to my preferred maximum listening level, so even if I sat on the remote it wouldn't go any higher. Not having easy access to the HUD also prevents fiddling about with settings (which I usually do via my TV if making any audio adjustments). The AVR is set to correctly decode the soundtrack and apply my preferred up-mixing mode (where appropriate), which it 'remembers' on a per input basis and from the last setting.

Maybe it helps that I use a Harmony remote too, but I just don't feel any need to look at HUD when watching films.

If I need to check on the HUD then I can still do that via my TV for adjustment/set up purposes: For me TV is far less critical viewing, so I'm not bothered about any extra noise/issues caused by passing video through the AVR. For the big screen viewing, I just want the maximum quality I can achieve, so that means minimising the potential for video interference/additional conversions and associated noise or side effects.


----------



## Craig Peer

markmon1 said:


> *You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.*
> 
> 
> 
> Dynamic tone mapping is a good replacement for HDR10+ and Dolby vision. It basically does the same thing but possibly better because HDR10+ and DV rely on the mastering engineer carefully measuring each frame where DTM always measures each frame accurately at playback. So I don't think supporting these things is necessary.


The on screen display info? True - and I admit I resisted setting it up this way because I like and am used to having the OSD info. However, in my case I re-arranged my equipment rack ( which is right behind me ) so I can see what the volume level is if need be. And if I need the OSD to change a bunch of settings in the future, that can be temporarily re-established if needed. I find I don't really need it day to day though.


----------



## SJHT

Many control systems can show all of that info if setup properly. Really depends on the system and the programmer. SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Many control systems can show all of that info if setup properly. Really depends on the system and the programmer. SJ


Besides, sometimes I don't want my wife to know how loud the movie really is going to get. 

" Green Book " looked outstanding last night, using the latest DTM firmware. I'm pulling out some 4K HDR old favorites this week for more testing !


----------



## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> Many control systems can show all of that info if setup properly. Really depends on the system and the programmer. SJ




Me too every thing it show on my Ipad from volume to change the up-mix or to change my calibration preset if u have more than preset U can throw controller such crestron or control4 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

markmon1 said:


> You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.


The Lumagen API does support displaying text on screen overlay of up to a couple of lines I believe. I'm going to use this facility to add OSD overlay of AVR volume and audio mode via my Raspberry Pi integration stuff.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> The Lumagen API does support displaying text on screen overlay of up to a couple of lines I believe. I'm going to use this facility to add OSD overlay of AVR volume and audio mode via my Raspberry Pi integration stuff.


Back in the day, Shawn Fogg used to sell a little device that could take the RS232 output of a Meridian processor (and others I believe) and feed that into a Lumagen. I used to do that between my G68 and VisionHDP. Brings back good memories!


----------



## jbrinegar

markmon1 said:


> You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer



I prefer my lumagen at the end of the chain so I still get all my AVR OSD. No problems for me. Syncs fine. Very happy with my setup.

I acknowledge its not the recommended way, but it can be done and works very well for me.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Back in the day, Shawn Fogg used to sell a little device that could take the RS232 output of a Meridian processor (and others I believe) and feed that into a Lumagen. I used to do that between my G68 and VisionHDP. Brings back good memories!


Cool, just looked that up, looked like a neat solution. I'm going to implement in the first instance for my own Arcam AVR. I've already got the HDR flag triggering different user modes in my JVC projector for SDR and HDR duties, as well as the aspect ratio flags coming out of the auto aspect detection driving my screen masks.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Just noticed another update appeared on the Lumagen site: 

*Beta 021219* " DTM improvement cleared up problem on opening of Starship Troopers UHD. Small fix to DTM lower curve. Extra bit of range added for DTM with SDR output. Removed message regarding "effective display max" when adjusting display ratio in DTM mode since there are other variables that enter into this calculation"

Haven't had chance to put the 'too bright' one (and it's subsequent update) on mine yet...I'll wait a few days to put this newest one on due to visitors.


----------



## kaotikr1

jbrinegar said:


> I prefer my lumagen at the end of the chain so I still get all my AVR OSD. No problems for me. Syncs fine. Very happy with my setup.
> 
> I acknowledge its not the recommended way, but it can be done and works very well for me.


I have tried to run mine that way through the Anthem AVM 60 and I just run into sync issues. It seems sometimes HDMI just does whatever it wants. With me having all inputs go to the Lumagen everything syncs correctly 99.99% of the time. I can go months without a hiccup. If I route through the Anthem then I can get sync issues each time I use the system. 

I think you just have to find what works for you and roll with it. I do miss the volume but if I want I can easily look at the app on my iPhone to get the current volume if needed. I also like to set and forget it when I watch a movie, set the volume and press play and enjoy. Nobody in my family or group of friends wants me messing with stuff especially when I like everyone to put their devices away and enjoy the show!


----------



## darksets

Wookii said:


> I would much rather Lumagen added features with the ability to turn them off, than didn't add them at all. Sharpening and edge enhancement can make an improvement in perceived image quality if used judiciously - the enhancement settings in the Panasonic blu-ray players are a good example of that, and provide a welcome increase in the percieved clarity of UHD blu-rays.
> 
> Lumagen has had picture enhancement controls of its own, and also Darby processing, for years now so this isn't something new, like a change in some sort of perceived 'purist' stance. The Radiance processors are designed to give the widest possible breadth of user/installer control and configurability, so I'm not sure how anyone could argue for a feature _not_ to be added.
> 
> If Jim could come up with something similar to Darby processing, for 4K, I'd personally welcome it with open arms!


Ah, yes. I had forgotten about Darbee, I guess that ship has sailed already (i.e. Lumagen being a purist's device). I think it goes without saying that one of the first things I did after getting my Radiance Pro was to issue command "Menu 0860" to turn Darbee off. 

As for allowing for image distorting gimmicks like edge enhancement, the problem is not so much the trouble of turning it off, as the idea that they have spent their resources implementing them and that I have paid for that.


----------



## cargen

kaotikr1 said:


> I have tried to run mine that way through the Anthem AVM 60 and I just run into sync issues. It seems sometimes HDMI just does whatever it wants. With me having all inputs go to the Lumagen everything syncs correctly 99.99% of the time. I can go months without a hiccup. If I route through the Anthem then I can get sync issues each time I use the system.


Interesting to hear of your problems running your Radiance Pro thru the AVM-60 because that is the way I have mine cabled and I have experienced zero sync issues.


----------



## Mark_H

darksets said:


> Ah, yes. I had forgotten about Darbee, I guess that ship has sailed already (i.e. Lumagen being a purist's device). I think it goes without saying that one of the first things I did after getting my Radiance Pro was to issue command "Menu 0860" to turn Darbee off.


Then, it goes without saying, that you are missing out 

This Lumagen purist uses the Darbee processing in both my cinema and TV units. Would love to see a 4K version or facsimile thereof added to the Lumagen.


----------



## Wookii

darksets said:


> Ah, yes. I had forgotten about Darbee, I guess that ship has sailed already (i.e. Lumagen being a purist's device).


As I say, Lumagen has had image processing functions long before Darbee was implemented (it is a _video processor_ after all), including a variety of sharpening modes (including adjustment for horizontal, vertical and diagonal edge enhancement and texture/fine detail sharpening), noise reduction (temporal, spacial and block noise reduction settings), and also intra-frame contrast enhancer called 'Adaptive Contrast'.



darksets said:


> As for allowing for image distorting gimmicks like edge enhancement, the problem is not so much the trouble of turning it off, as the idea that they have spent their resources implementing them and that I have paid for that.


Technically you haven't paid for it if it wasn't in the device when you bought it, or if it was a promised feature at the time of purchase, you bought the device knowing it would be added - semantics I know, but the point is still there.

You also have to take a little wider view, and realise the device is designed to suit a broad range of people, and they have differing needs and tastes. I have absolutely no interest what-so-ever in PiP, but I wouldn't for one minute suggest Lumagen don't add that feature as I appreciate many here want to see it and use it.

I do understand your 'purist' stance to an extent, but how far do you take it? Do you not own a Sony 995? A projector that has inherent and undefeatable noise reduction processing. You are also using DTM - definitely not a purist approach to displaying HDR given it is effectively an active gamma manipulation of the original content - should a hardcore purist not really be displaying 1 nit input to 1 nit output and clip everything their display cannot render? An extreme example I appreciate, but it makes the point that you cannot take a purist hard line in home projection, and even less so now we have to deal with HDR.


----------



## *Harry*

Wookii said:


> As I say, Lumagen has had image processing functions long before Darbee was implemented (it is a _video processor_ after all), *including a variety of sharpening modes (including adjustment for horizontal, vertical and diagonal edge enhancement and texture/fine detail sharpening), noise reduction (temporal, spacial and block noise reduction settings), and also intra-frame contrast enhancer called 'Adaptive Contrast'*.


Yes; but if I'm right, all these functions were done by HW in the Gennum VXP.
I'm looking forward to get those implemented in the FPGA beast ...


----------



## darksets

Wookii said:


> I do understand your 'purist' stance to an extent, but how far do you take it? Do you not own a Sony 995? A projector that has inherent and undefeatable noise reduction processing. You are also using DTM - definitely not a purist approach to displaying HDR given it is effectively an active gamma manipulation of the original content - should a hardcore purist not really be displaying 1 nit input to 1 nit output and clip everything their display cannot render? An extreme example I appreciate, but it makes the point that you cannot take a purist hard line in home projection, and even less so now we have to deal with HDR.


I didn't say I wouldn't buy a Lumagen because it has some features I don't like. The overall package is very compelling. That doesn't mean I'm happy paying for those features and, more importantly, that they are spending their resources implementing them instead of something useful.

Your argument about HDR is just silly. There is no projector capable of properly displaying HDR, as opposed to just displaying a picture without distorting it with edge enhancement. Applying DTM is actually more accurate than clipping information that the display cannot produce.


----------



## OzHDHT

For a few like myself who happen to have a Panny 9000 player and the Radiance, it opens up some options for experimentation with tone mapping. I'm wondering if any here has had checked out using Panasonic's HDR Optomiser in conjunction with DTM on the Radiance? I haven't had a chance yet as such, I've just been experimenting with DTM on it's own. I know in other combinations such as the NX9 projector and the 9000, guys like Kris D are liking the way the HDR optimiser works with the NX9's ATM function. I might have a play with it on the weekend on my 4500.


----------



## A7mad78

Kelvin1965S said:


> Just noticed another update appeared on the Lumagen site:
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 021219* " DTM improvement cleared up problem on opening of Starship Troopers UHD. Small fix to DTM lower curve. Extra bit of range added for DTM with SDR output. Removed message regarding "effective display max" when adjusting display ratio in DTM mode since there are other variables that enter into this calculation"
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't had chance to put the 'too bright' one (and it's subsequent update) on mine yet...I'll wait a few days to put this newest one on due to visitors.




any good feedback about this FW and is there are something else to setup 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wookii

A7mad78 said:


> any good feedback about this FW and is there are something else to setup
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I loaded it last night, and it looks good. It resolved the two issues I've seen where highlights have been blown out, and subjectively mid-tones look a bit better balanced (could just be my mind playing tricks on me there though).

I'm still having an issue with highlights being blown out on some HDR games - but given that they go up to 10,000nits, it might just be that there simply isn't enough brightness range on the projector to show them properly without compressing the nit-for-nit range too much.


----------



## A7mad78

Wookii said:


> I loaded it last night, and it looks good. It resolved the two issues I've seen where highlights have been blown out, and subjectively mid-tones look a bit better balanced (could just be my mind playing tricks on me there though).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still having an issue with highlights being blown out on some HDR games - but given that they go up to 10,000nits, it might just be that there simply isn't enough brightness range on the projector to show them properly without compressing the nit-for-nit range too much.




I will try to loud it today last one was so good compare to IM I keep them on level 8 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

I just loaded the new firmware. I have 4K HDR movie nights planned for Sat. / Sunday / Monday and Tuesday, so it will get a good testing out.


----------



## jbrinegar

Very happy with how the DTM is coming along. Ive been doing a rewatch of the Marvel movies before endgame, and Ive got to say that GOTG vol 2, Avengers 1 and Ultron all look spectacular. Best its ever looked in my theater. Excellent job!


----------



## A7mad78

every time i set the Dynamic HDR level to 8 and SAVE IT it come back to 5 after Shutdown my system it’s never save I run the latest FW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mhafner

A7mad78 said:


> every time i set the Dynamic HDR level to 8 and SAVE IT it come back to 5 after Shutdown my system it’s never save I run the latest FW
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you save in the general menu for saving the configuration or the left arrow tone mapping menu? The latter does not survive a shutdown.


----------



## Kris Deering

markmon1 said:


> Dynamic tone mapping is a good replacement for HDR10+ and Dolby vision. It basically does the same thing but possibly better because HDR10+ and DV rely on the mastering engineer carefully measuring each frame where DTM always measures each frame accurately at playback. So I don't think supporting these things is necessary.


Not really the same thing. For one, none of these solutions really do "frame by frame" for TONE MAPPING. They do scene by scene. It would be way too time and processing intensive to actually do frame by frame tone mapping and typically scenes don't vary enough to justify a new tone map for every frame. It also raises the chances of seeing artifacts like pumping. I've talked to people involved with Dolby's mastering process and they say the same thing.

What Dolby and HDR10+ do that DTM does NOT do is provide the frame metadata to the display. That doesn't matter with DTM if you are talking about tone mapping specifically, but that is only part of the equation. That frame data (if present and accurate) provides useful information for flat panels that rely on contrast manipulation, like dynamic dimming or zone based dimming. Without that data the display has to guess on the fly, which leads to common issues like pumping or gamma issues. If they have the information for the frame, they know EXACTLY where they should be APL wise, so it is a huge benefit to maximize range and minimize artifacts. This is the main reason that Samsung wanted HDR10+, the bulk of their displays were edge lit and benefit GREATLY from the information. Far more than actual tone mapping information since they are bright enough that more often than not they are simply nit for nit. With PQ and flat panels, issues with tone mapping should be extremely rare. Older sets that relied on static metadata had more issues than recent ones because they would actually use the wrong data. 

Projectors with dynamic contrast adjustments (nearly all of them) could also benefit a lot from frame by frame information like what DV provides for their systems too. I discussed this with JVC engineers the year they premiered the RS4500 at CEDIA. They acknowledged it as well and said they have been pressing to work with Dolby, but so far it hadn't gotten anywhere.


----------



## A7mad78

mhafner said:


> Do you save in the general menu for saving the configuration or the left arrow tone mapping menu? The latter does not survive a shutdown.




From the hdr menu i go to DTM and change the value from 5 to 8 and press OK until it show in the display it save but in the next time To run the lumagen it return back to 5 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mhafner

A7mad78 said:


> From the hdr menu i go to DTM and change the value from 5 to 8 and press OK until it show in the display it save but in the next time To run the lumagen it return back to 5
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You need to save the configuration after changing any settings for them to survive a reboot.


----------



## Kris Deering

A7mad78 said:


> mhafner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you save in the general menu for saving the configuration or the left arrow tone mapping menu? The latter does not survive a shutdown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the hdr menu i go to DTM and change the value from 5 to 8 and press OK until it show in the display it save but in the next time To run the lumagen it return back to 5
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Any changes to the Lumagen settings are wiped when you shut off power unless you do a full save in the main menu.


----------



## A7mad78

Kris Deering said:


> Any changes to the Lumagen settings are wiped when you shut off power unless you do a full save in the main menu.




Thx Kris how can I save in the main menu pls after i setup the DTM to 8 


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## SSnarski

New to the lumagen trying to get the 4096 x to take in the output settings with the dcr lens and RS4500 JVC projector there are mult choices in their and none of them seem to do anything,
when i try to hit "ok" to save on any of them nothing happens, which one is the correct one to use.

Was able to turn on the HDR tone mapping and save that, but the output settings no so much,


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## SSnarski

One other thing, how do load firmware upgrades on the lumagen since it has no cat 5 internet connection


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## bearcat2017

Firmware updates are sent from pc to Lumagen through usb.


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## appelz

SSnarski said:


> One other thing, how do load firmware upgrades on the lumagen since it has no cat 5 internet connection


http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf

http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


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## SSnarski

appelz said:


> http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf
> 
> http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


Thank you very much, Just an update put all the recommended settings Craig Peer Sent over that Kris Deering shared, finally got the Lumagen set up with full resolution to utilize the Panamorph DCR - the lens/Lumagen/and RS4500 are all working together, thought something was wrong when Aquaman 4k uhd kept changing the ratio but it was the movie not everything else, I keep dialing little things in and it seems to be Quite Pleasing even with a 150 Diagonal 240 scope screen,
I put everything in using settings for Mid Laser, but still might fiddle with some settings to use the high laser and its full potential, Just trying to get everything functioning before Chad B comes out to do a final calibration

I did put the Panasonic 9000 in the mix and put the HDR optimizer on, did not see the choices in there for 350/500 nits in the menu, i will have to dive into that a little deeper, just did not have much time today to work on it, just got back from Vacation and back to work tomorrow. There are just quite a few adjustments and recommendations for all the new added equipment.


----------



## OzHDHT

SSnarski said:


> Thank you very much, Just an update put all the recommended settings Craig Peer Sent over that Kris Deering shared, finally got the Lumagen set up with full resolution to utilize the Panamorph DCR - the lens/Lumagen/and RS4500 are all working together, thought something was wrong when Aquaman 4k uhd kept changing the ratio but it was the movie not everything else, I keep dialing little things in and it seems to be Quite Pleasing even with a 150 Diagonal 240 scope screen,
> I put everything in using settings for Mid Laser, but still might fiddle with some settings to use the high laser and its full potential, Just trying to get everything functioning before Chad B comes out to do a final calibration
> 
> I did put the Panasonic 9000 in the mix and put the HDR optimizer on, did not see the choices in there for 350/500 nits in the menu, i will have to dive into that a little deeper, just did not have much time today to work on it, just got back from Vacation and back to work tomorrow. There are just quite a few adjustments and recommendations for all the new added equipment.



The projector settings you're looking for are in the home menu's setup menu, you won't have access to them while playing content.I've been meaning to do some 9000/Lumagen DTM experimenting but I've been tied up across the whole Easter weekend unfortunately.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

To save from main menu


MENU>SAVE>SAVE OK



OR 



MENU> up arrow, ok, ok, ok


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## A7mad78

Gordon Fraser said:


> To save from main menu
> 
> 
> MENU>SAVE>SAVE OK
> 
> 
> 
> OR
> 
> 
> 
> MENU> up arrow, ok, ok, ok




Got it 

Thx mate 


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## markmon1

Kris Deering said:


> Not really the same thing. For one, none of these solutions really do "frame by frame" for TONE MAPPING. They do scene by scene. It would be way too time and processing intensive to actually do frame by frame tone mapping and typically scenes don't vary enough to justify a new tone map for every frame. It also raises the chances of seeing artifacts like pumping. I've talked to people involved with Dolby's mastering process and they say the same thing.


FYI, madVR sort of does "frame by frame" in a sense. It works off scenes like you say, but then it takes the max tone mapping value in the scene by analyzing frames and slowly changes it within the scene. I only bring up madVR in this thread because you say "none of these solutions..." otherwise I'd not be talking about it in here. My guess is as Lumagen DTM matures further, it may adopt similar behavior.


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## Wookii

markmon1 said:


> FYI, madVR sort of does "frame by frame" in a sense. It works off scenes like you say, but then it takes the max tone mapping value in the scene by analyzing frames and slowly changes it within the scene. I only bring up madVR in this thread because you say "none of these solutions..." otherwise I'd not be talking about it in here. My guess is as Lumagen DTM matures further, it may adopt similar behavior.


Lumagen DTM works in exactly the same basic way as MadVR to the extent that it buffers frames and analyses each individual frames luminance properties to determine the tone mapping gamma curve to be applied. The only way MadVR and Lumagen DTM are likely to differ are:

a) the data they choose to use from the analysis of the individual frames (e.g. overall ADL, percentage of pixels above a certain luminance threshold etc)
b) the decisions they choose to make based on that data (e.g. when, how and where they decide to manipulate the gamma curve)
c) possibly the number of frames to be buffered (though I suspect they’ll both have have similar tolerances for latency)

I suspect if you were to compare both side by side now, you would be hard pushed to tell the results apart, and once both have fully matured they will likely be indistinguishable - they are after all seeking identical goals on the identical source material.


----------



## jamesmil

SSnarski said:


> Thank you very much, Just an update put all the recommended settings Craig Peer Sent over that Kris Deering shared, finally got the Lumagen set up with full resolution to utilize the Panamorph DCR - the lens/Lumagen/and RS4500 are all working together, thought something was wrong when Aquaman 4k uhd kept changing the ratio but it was the movie not everything else, I keep dialing little things in and it seems to be Quite Pleasing even with a 150 Diagonal 240 scope screen,
> I put everything in using settings for Mid Laser, but still might fiddle with some settings to use the high laser and its full potential, Just trying to get everything functioning before Chad B comes out to do a final calibration
> 
> I did put the Panasonic 9000 in the mix and put the HDR optimizer on, did not see the choices in there for 350/500 nits in the menu, i will have to dive into that a little deeper, just did not have much time today to work on it, just got back from Vacation and back to work tomorrow. There are just quite a few adjustments and recommendations for all the new added equipment.


Note, the Aquaman 4K uhd uses multiple aspect ratios during the movie... The "imax native" scenes are 1.78:1, where the rest of the scenes are 2.39:1.


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## SSnarski

jamesmil said:


> Note, the Aquaman 4K uhd uses multiple aspect ratios during the movie... The "imax native" scenes are 1.78:1, where the rest of the scenes are 2.39:1.



I was thinking with the DCR Lens and Lumagen set up you would not notice the changes during the viewing of the movie - may have something to do with the set up in the Panasonic 9000 - output - i will have to pull up the menu and see what is being output - i have not done this yet - only turned on the HDR optimizer in the quick set up button, i had the oppo 203 in the mix in my audio cabinets and it was all set up for output for dolby vision for a LG 77" OLED prior to the HT addition - I just got everything else up and running last night when i got back from Vacation, have not had the time to really start really getting into everything - 



Has anyone else noticed screen size changes with the DCR/ Lumagen on any mult. aspect ratio movie watching?


----------



## bobof

SSnarski said:


> Has anyone else noticed screen size changes with the DCR/ Lumagen on any mult. aspect ratio movie watching?


I don't have a DCR lens but do use auto aspect a lot. The feature works brilliantly within what it is designed for, which is to switch correctly for a whole movie. If you're thinking of using auto aspect with multi aspect movies I really wouldn't. The aspect changes aren't instantaneous. There are two notable delays; one is the period during which it detects the aspect (which can vary depending on the scene and how obvious the bars are in the content) and the other is what I think amounts to a single frame pause as the aspect actually changes. Both of those would spoil a movie for me if in content, but are absolutely fine as a movie starts up in the credits or intro sequence (in fact, the masks moving in my setup add to the cinematic feel). 

I would just have a memory set which turned off auto aspect for those kind of films.


----------



## SSnarski

bobof said:


> I don't have a DCR lens but do use auto aspect a lot. The feature works brilliantly within what it is designed for, which is to switch correctly for a whole movie. If you're thinking of using auto aspect with multi aspect movies I really wouldn't. The aspect changes aren't instantaneous. There are two notable delays; one is the period during which it detects the aspect (which can vary depending on the scene and how obvious the bars are in the content) and the other is what I think amounts to a single frame pause as the aspect actually changes. Both of those would spoil a movie for me if in content, but are absolutely fine as a movie starts up in the credits or intro sequence (in fact, the masks moving in my setup add to the cinematic feel).
> 
> I would just have a memory set which turned off auto aspect for those kind of films.



Bobof - 

Is this some setting in the Lumagen or the Projector - I am pretty new to all this so i have a lot to learn - when watching on my OLED it would just fill the entire screen when watching multi apsect movies kind of gave you a bigger picture since you no longer had black bars at the top and bottom - with the projector it kind of did the opposite - it shrunk the picture or added black bars to the top and bottom.


----------



## bobof

SSnarski said:


> Bobof -
> 
> Is this some setting in the Lumagen or the Projector - I am pretty new to all this so i have a lot to learn - when watching on my OLED it would just fill the entire screen when watching multi apsect movies kind of gave you a bigger picture since you no longer had black bars at the top and bottom - with the projector it kind of did the opposite - it shrunk the picture or added black bars to the top and bottom.


It will be settings related, though I can't quite understand from how you would have had it set up. For it to have been seamless with no bars you'd have had to have been zoomed into just the centre of the image, or using non-linear stretch I believe, both of which would be pretty horrid. Or alternatively viewing another version of the movie that didn't have the aspect ratio changes in it somehow? 

I tend to try and avoid any non-original scaling or framing of movies if possible so I'm not sure what best to advise as my advice would usually be... don't!


----------



## jrp

SSnarski said:


> New to the lumagen trying to get the 4096 x to take in the output settings with the dcr lens and RS4500 JVC projector there are mult choices in their and none of them seem to do anything,
> when i try to hit "ok" to save on any of them nothing happens, which one is the correct one to use.
> 
> Was able to turn on the HDR tone mapping and save that, but the output settings no so much,


You can use the menu to change the output to 4096 by 2160, but it is more complicated if you want to support 24, 25, 50 and 60 Hertz output. I have done this successfully, but there is a "direct code" shortcut since this is a common setup. To output 4096x2160 at 4k24, 4k25, 4k50 or 4k60 press, as appropriate, enter MENU 0877 and then do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK).

For the Paladin DCR lens with 4096x2160 output mode the resulting aspect ratio is 2.37. What I usually recommend is you can set the MENU->Output->Styles->Style0->Aspect->Single Aspect to 2.37. Then I suggest zooming in so both 2.35 movies (selected by pressing 2.35), and 2.40 movies (selected by pressing ALT 2.35) fill the screen. Then use the Pro "Mask" (Style0->Mask/Shrink/Mask) to adjust over-scan. I prefer loosing a few pixels and not having black bars for either of these source aspect ratios. You can of course choose a different compromise.

There is a manual on line and toward the back is a "Direct Codes" section with codes we have added for common cases. It is on the support/manuals page. I am actually working on an update that includes information on Dynamic Tone Mapping.

===== 

For updating, you need to use a PC (or virtual PC on a MAC) along with the supplied USB cable. On our Support/Updates/Radiance Pro page download the latest. There is no need to load in-between updates. Also, there is a Tech Tip that comes with each release that describes how to do the update.


----------



## jrp

We appreciate all the positive feedback we have received on Dynamic Tone Mapping.

Thanks to everyone who provided scenes for us to optimize for Dynamic Tone Mapping. With the current release (021219) we think we have addressed all the scenes reported to us. Dynamic Tone Mapping can't be perfect for every scene but if people report scenes that aren't as good as they can be, we can work on improving them. So please keep sending us scenes to work on if you find such scenes and are so inclined. 

Patrick is working on a few additional improvements, and is also implementing HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping. Turns out we had a bug that made HLG too bright that will be corrected in the next release as well. I hope these improvements are in a release this week.

We will continue looking into another changes for Dynamic Tone Mapping, along with specific scenes reported to us. 

=== 

I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.

=== 

As I mentioned in my previous post I am working on an update to the Radiance Pro manual that includes Dynamic Tone Mapping. I hope to have something to put on the website mid-May.


----------



## A7mad78

Thx Jim for updating us and I think the pipline is batter to be the next to close the chapter of pic improvement then the last for the owners of 444 to add pip and so to be the final cherry on the top of cake 



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## Eventidal

jrp;57940912. said:


> ===
> 
> I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.


I personally favour the 12 bit pipeline (as probably all 42xx owners) but I really hope you will implement sharpness and noise reduction sometime soon after all these years of waiting....


----------



## SSnarski

jrp said:


> You can use the menu to change the output to 4096 by 2160, but it is more complicated if you want to support 24, 25, 50 and 60 Hertz output. I have done this successfully, but there is a "direct code" shortcut since this is a common setup. To output 4096x2160 at 4k24, 4k25, 4k50 or 4k60 press, as appropriate, enter MENU 0877 and then do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK).
> 
> For the Paladin DCR lens with 4096x2160 output mode the resulting aspect ratio is 2.37. What I usually recommend is you can set the MENU->Output->Styles->Style0->Aspect->Single Aspect to 2.37. Then I suggest zooming in so both 2.35 movies (selected by pressing 2.35), and 2.40 movies (selected by pressing ALT 2.35) fill the screen. Then use the Pro "Mask" (Style0->Mask/Shrink/Mask) to adjust over-scan. I prefer loosing a few pixels and not having black bars for either of these source aspect ratios. You can of course choose a different compromise.
> 
> There is a manual on line and toward the back is a "Direct Codes" section with codes we have added for common cases. It is on the support/manuals page. I am actually working on an update that includes information on Dynamic Tone Mapping.
> 
> =====
> 
> For updating, you need to use a PC (or virtual PC on a MAC) along with the supplied USB cable. On our Support/Updates/Radiance Pro page download the latest. There is no need to load in-between updates. Also, there is a Tech Tip that comes with each release that describes how to do the update.





I had the output at 4096 x 2160 60 hz - in conversation with Craig Peer i changed that to 24 hz, spent a little time last night tweaking things - i printed out your suggestions and will have to find the time to keep working on things, i did complete the latest update last night on the Lumagen, Still have to play with the Panasonic 9000 - i put that on High LUM projector in the menu - for some reason the Panasonic 9000 auto chose LCD as it's choice for the RS4500, prior to this i had it hooked up to my OLED when i first received the P 9000 - it chose correctly (OLED) as its choice when it was hooked up that way. IMO it almost looked better playing in the LCD mode rather than projector mode.



Note: I did notice after the lastest update with the Lumagen - the LIP Sync is now a split second off - was not like this prior to the update.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> We appreciate all the positive feedback we have received on Dynamic Tone Mapping.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who provided scenes for us to optimize for Dynamic Tone Mapping. With the current release (021219) we think we have addressed all the scenes reported to us. Dynamic Tone Mapping can't be perfect for every scene but if people report scenes that aren't as good as they can be, we can work on improving them. So please keep sending us scenes to work on if you find such scenes and are so inclined.
> 
> Patrick is working on a few additional improvements, and is also implementing HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping. Turns out we had a bug that made HLG too bright that will be corrected in the next release as well. I hope these improvements are in a release this week.
> 
> We will continue looking into another changes for Dynamic Tone Mapping, along with specific scenes reported to us.
> 
> ===
> 
> I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.
> 
> ===
> 
> As I mentioned in my previous post I am working on an update to the Radiance Pro manual that includes Dynamic Tone Mapping. I hope to have something to put on the website mid-May.


I'm not sure what the full list of possible work is, but I would prioritize:
- manual updated for DTM
- PIP/POP
- 12 bit


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## SSnarski

I think i will need to verify which firmware updated the projector has as well, that is one thing that i have not checked yet.


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## Wookii

jrp said:


> ===
> 
> I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.
> 
> ===


Jim, is the 256 point 1D LUT part of that proposed 12 bit pipeline work, or a separate area of firmware development? if the latter, is it still on the 'list'?


----------



## Wookii

SSnarski said:


> I had the output at 4096 x 2160 60 hz - in conversation with Craig Peer i changed that to 24 hz, spent a little time last night tweaking things - i printed out your suggestions and will have to find the time to keep working on things, i did complete the latest update last night on the Lumagen, Still have to play with the Panasonic 9000 - i put that on High LUM projector in the menu - for some reason the Panasonic 9000 auto chose LCD as it's choice for the RS4500, prior to this i had it hooked up to my OLED when i first received the P 9000 - it chose correctly (OLED) as its choice when it was hooked up that way. IMO it almost looked better playing in the LCD mode rather than projector mode.


I suspect the 'High Lumen Projector'/OLED/LCD settings relate to the Panny 9000 performing some sort of tone mapping internally. You want to try and turn that all off and send the unmolested HDR to your Radiance Pro to allow the Lumagen DTM to do its work.


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## SSnarski

Wookii said:


> I suspect the 'High Lumen Projector'/OLED/LCD settings relate to the Panny 9000 performing some sort of tone mapping internally. You want to try and turn that all off and send the unmolested HDR to your Radiance Pro to allow the Lumagen DTM to do its work.





I do not believe there is a way to turn off what you are displaying to - High/Low Projector, OLED, LCD, etc. in initial set up you have to choose something or the unit does that itself automatically - You do however have the ability to directly turn off the HDR Tone Mapping, if you hold down the quick HDR button it will go into advanced HDR mode to make changes


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## SJHT

Mike_WI said:


> I'm not sure what the full list of possible work is, but I would prioritize:
> - manual updated for DTM
> - PIP/POP
> - 12 bit


Agree!

Specifically purchased my 444x for PIP/POP.....


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## Mike_WI

*PIP/POP and AVR GUIs*



SJHT said:


> Agree!
> 
> Specifically purchased my 444x for PIP/POP.....


I didn't use PIP/POP that much when I had the XE but I will likely try to use it more now.
In the past I couldn't look at onscreen menu for my old Denon 5308CI AVR, but would love if that is possible now with PIP/POP.
I think there is a HDMI feedback issue that is difficult. In the past this was resolvable with a component out from AVR into Lumagen XE I think.


----------



## Garth Jacobsen

SJHT said:


> Agree!
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically purchased my 444x for PIP/POP.....


I too specifically went with my 444x for the PIP/POP promise so would definately vote for that!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## jrp

Thanks for the feedback on which feature to implement next. A real tight race between PiP and pipeline improvements. We plan to do an "edge enhancement" feature and it is high on the list, but after the pipeline improvements to avoid working on it both before and after the pipeline improvements.

I do not use PiP/PoP, and do not like "edge enhancement." On the other hand, I have taken to leaving Darbee on for 1080 and lower sources, but at a low setting of around 25 where it does not seem to create artifacts but does give a bit of enhancement due to its "local contrast improvement." I mention this as my personal interest is mostly in the pipeline improvement even though the pipeline precision is already very good.

Having said that and after considering feedback, I think we will work in the following order:
1) Initial "Basic PiP" (no PoP)
2) Pipeline enhancements
3) Initial "Basic PoP"
4) Some form of edge enhancement
5) Additional PiP/PoP improvement

It may be that 1 and 3 are best done at the same time. 

I think this gets people with 444X units the most important PiP feature of using pip to see their audio processor OSD.

NOTE: As a reminder for those wanting PiP/PoP for their 444X unit: Only one input on each 18 GHz input board can be active at any one time and so you cannot do PiP/PoP using both inputs on a single 18 GHz input card. Input boards have two inputs. So input 1&2, etc., share a board. This limitation does not apply to 9 GHz input cards since each input has its own input chip.

NOTE: There will be only a single tone mapping circuit for the main window. The PiP Window will not have any video enhancements or controls (or only very minimal control) and is expected to be a SDR source.


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## jamesmil

jrp said:


> NOTE: There will be only a single tone mapping circuit for the main window. The PiP Window will not have any video enhancements or controls (or only very minimal control) and is expected to be a SDR source.


One question on that last point - Will the EDID for the PiP Window source disable the "HDR Allowed" attribute such that HDR-capable devices will still work with it by only sending SDR signals in that configuration?


----------



## jbrinegar

SSnarski said:


> I do not believe there is a way to turn off what you are displaying to - High/Low Projector, OLED, LCD, etc. in initial set up you have to choose something or the unit does that itself automatically - You do however have the ability to directly turn off the HDR Tone Mapping, if you hold down the quick HDR button it will go into advanced HDR mode to make changes


I believe as long as you have the HDR optimizer turned off, it will ignore whatever display type you select


----------



## jrp

jamesmil said:


> One question on that last point - Will the EDID for the PiP Window source disable the "HDR Allowed" attribute such that HDR-capable devices will still work with it by only sending SDR signals in that configuration?


Even though I said the PiP source is expected to be SDR, I really hope we can support some basic HDR source processing. I just did not (and still do not) want to commit to it until we know it will fit in the FPGA.

I think it likely that we will allow the PiP source to be HDR and that we will be able to do a "simplified" conversion to the output format based on the Display Max Light setting. Note that depending on the output format this might be HDR to SDR or SDR to HDR.

As an example, we might use a "1D LUT" like a lot of projectors do for their "Tone Mapping" since it is small. Even though this is mathematically incorrect it does an okay job (near the gray vector) and might be acceptable for the PiP Window. We would also need a color space converter since the PiP source's color format may be different than the output color format. So there is going to be some hardware needed, but as I mentioned there may not be any user controls visible for the PiP source (or maybe there will be. Just don't know yet)

If the conversion above is not going to fit the user already can select an EDID that says "No HDR" for the PiP input for a specific memory to be used when the source is going to the PiP window. We could of course make this automatic and would consider that as well. 

There is also a small chance we say that the main window and the PiP window must be the same dynamic range and color format which saves the color space conversion and the "basic tone mapping" and so is easiest to fit in the FPGA. This may not be as bad as it sounds. For example PoP is likely for two sports games and so they can likely be the same format. Or it might be for two game consoles and then both can be put in the same output format. Or your audio processor OSD might look a little to bright or colorful if the output format does not match. Don't worry too much on this one. I think we will have room for the basic tone map and color format change, but not committing to it.


----------



## jrp

*Lumagen Demo Theater*

I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" in a custom built 19 feet wide by 21 feet long (plus a two foot deep false wall for equipment and speakers) by 12 feet high room. There is still some fine tuning of sound to do, and a few other tweaks, but it is very nice already. Here are some of the fun facts:

Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 (okay, no surprise here)
JVC RS4500
Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, 168 inch diagonal (155 inch wide), 2.40 fixed screen
Trinnov Altitude 16 in a 9.2.6 configuration
Two Trinnov Amplitude8, eight channel power amplifiers
MiniDSP (to control Sub Woofers) that has not been implemented yet
Revel C208 center channel speaker
Revel F206 for Left and Right speakers
Revel W383 for the 12 surround speakers
Two Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers
Custom built (by me) enclosures for the surrounds so they point in the correct ATMOS direction
Kaleidescape Strato
Oppo 203 (modified for reduced output jitter and reduced EMI by CineMike in Germany)
Panasonic UB900
Roku Ultra
AppleTV 4k (yet to be installed)
DirecTV
Chairs by Row One (two rows of five with back row on 8 inch riser)
URC control system
Dedicated 30 Amp 240 VAC and 20 Amp 120 VAC circuits for equipment
4 inch thick acoustic panels by Acoustimac
Understated LOTR theme courtesy of my wife

I want to especially thank JVC, Revel, Stewart Filmscreen, and Trinnov for their assistance in helping make our Demo Theater a most excellent place to watch movies and do training. Also thanks to Floyd Toole for his excellent book on acoustics.

I had Craig Rounds (video calibration), Curt Hoyt (audio calibration of the Trinnov), and Kris Deering (video calibration and audio consulting), over for a fun filled weekend to christen the theater and help me get it tuned up. John Schuermann of The Screening Room also attended and gave us his reviewer's view of the theater.

I don't want to hijack this thread so please email me at our Lumagen support email if you would like additional details. Of course, if your questions are appropriate for this thread (e.g. Radiance Pro setup for the RS4500) I think it is fine to ask questions here.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" . . .


Superb Jim, congrats on getting it all over the line - certainly a reference grade system! It'd be good to see some pics of it all (either in this thread or another dedicated thread).

Given I also own the RS4500 I'd be interested to hear what settings you've settled on in your Radiance, and also what peak nits you are running HDR at? Also, have you chosen to output BT2020 to your RS4500, or chosen to covert to P3?


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" in a custom built 19 feet wide by 21 feet long (plus a two foot deep false wall for equipment and speakers) by 12 feet high room. There is still some fine tuning of sound to do, and a few other tweaks, but it is very nice already. Here are some of the fun facts:
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 (okay, no surprise here)
> 
> JVC RS4500
> 
> Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, 168 inch diagonal (155 inch wide), 2.40 fixed screen
> 
> Trinnov Altitude 16 in a 9.2.6 configuration
> 
> Two Trinnov Amplitude8, eight channel power amplifiers
> 
> MiniDSP (to control Sub Woofers) that has not been implemented yet
> 
> Revel C208 center channel speaker
> 
> Revel F206 for Left and Right speakers
> 
> Revel W383 for the 12 surround speakers
> 
> Two Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers
> 
> Custom built (by me) enclosures for the surrounds so they point in the correct ATMOS direction
> 
> Kaleidescape Strato
> 
> Oppo 203 (modified for reduced output jitter and reduced EMI by CineMike in Germany)
> 
> Panasonic UB900
> 
> Roku Ultra
> 
> AppleTV 4k (yet to be installed)
> 
> DirecTV
> 
> Chairs by Row One (two rows of five with back row on 8 inch riser)
> 
> URC control system
> 
> Dedicated 30 Amp 240 VAC and 20 Amp 120 VAC circuits for equipment
> 
> 4 inch thick acoustic panels by Acoustimac
> 
> Understated LOTR theme courtesy of my wife
> 
> 
> 
> I want to especially thank JVC, Revel, Stewart Filmscreen, and Trinnov for their assistance in helping make our Demo Theater a most excellent place to watch movies and do training. Also thanks to Floyd Toole for his excellent book on acoustics.
> 
> 
> 
> I had Craig Rounds (video calibration), Curt Hoyt (audio calibration of the Trinnov), and Kris Deering (video calibration and audio consulting), over for a fun filled weekend to christen the theater and help me get it tuned up. John Schuermann of The Screening Room also attended and gave us his reviewer's view of the theater.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to hijack this thread so please email me at our Lumagen support email if you would like additional details. Of course, if your questions are appropriate for this thread (e.g. Radiance Pro setup for the RS4500) I think it is fine to ask questions here.




Love to see the theme 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## loggeo

Pictures please!!!


----------



## GerryWaz

jbrinegar said:


> I believe as long as you have the HDR optimizer turned off, it will ignore whatever display type you select


Where/how do you select the display type?


----------



## jbrinegar

GerryWaz said:


> Where/how do you select the display type?



Its under the setup menu-->HDMI-->advanced settings if memory serves. 

However, Im assuming since you have the lumagen doing the dynamic tone mapping so youll have the ub820s hdr optimzer off so display type shouldnt matter


----------



## GerryWaz

jbrinegar said:


> Its under the setup menu-->HDMI-->advanced settings if memory serves.
> 
> However, Im assuming since you have the lumagen doing the dynamic tone mapping so youll have the ub820s hdr optimzer off so display type shouldnt matter



Thanks!


----------



## jbrinegar

Last night I watched Thor Ragnarok 4K UHD disc (pan ub820, JVC rs2000) with the DTM enabled on the lumagen.

I noticed during several random bright scenes the picture would significantly darken, then be back to normal on the next scene. This is the first time Ive noticed this behavior. At first I thought it was my JVC DI malfunctioning, but the behavior continued even with the DI shut off.

After some troubleshooting, I determined it was the subtitles causing it. I usually never use the subtitles so ive never seen this phenomenon before (but I was watching with my parents who need the subtitles).

Turning subtitles off fixed the issue. Also, turning the luminance of the subtitles down to about -10 also resolved the problem.

Perhaps this was already a known issue, but just wanted to see if anyone else has noticed this


----------



## Craig Peer

Wookii said:


> Superb Jim, congrats on getting it all over the line - certainly a reference grade system! It'd be good to see some pics of it all (either in this thread or another dedicated thread).
> 
> Given I also own the RS4500 I'd be interested to hear what settings you've settled on in your Radiance, and also what peak nits you are running HDR at? Also, have you chosen to output BT2020 to you RS4500, or chosen to covert to P3?


I'd be curious too. There are a few of us RS4500 / Radiance Pro owners here.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" in a custom built 19 feet wide by 21 feet long (plus a two foot deep false wall for equipment and speakers) by 12 feet high room. There is still some fine tuning of sound to do, and a few other tweaks, but it is very nice already. Here are some of the fun facts:
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 (okay, no surprise here)
> JVC RS4500
> Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, 168 inch diagonal (155 inch wide), 2.40 fixed screen
> Trinnov Altitude 16 in a 9.2.6 configuration
> Two Trinnov Amplitude8, eight channel power amplifiers
> MiniDSP (to control Sub Woofers) that has not been implemented yet
> Revel C208 center channel speaker
> Revel F206 for Left and Right speakers
> Revel W383 for the 12 surround speakers
> Two Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers
> Custom built (by me) enclosures for the surrounds so they point in the correct ATMOS direction
> Kaleidescape Strato
> Oppo 203 (modified for reduced output jitter and reduced EMI by CineMike in Germany)
> Panasonic UB900
> Roku Ultra
> AppleTV 4k (yet to be installed)
> DirecTV
> Chairs by Row One (two rows of five with back row on 8 inch riser)
> URC control system
> Dedicated 30 Amp 240 VAC and 20 Amp 120 VAC circuits for equipment
> 4 inch thick acoustic panels by Acoustimac
> Understated LOTR theme courtesy of my wife
> 
> I want to especially thank JVC, Revel, Stewart Filmscreen, and Trinnov for their assistance in helping make our Demo Theater a most excellent place to watch movies and do training. Also thanks to Floyd Toole for his excellent book on acoustics.
> 
> I had Craig Rounds (video calibration), Curt Hoyt (audio calibration of the Trinnov), and Kris Deering (video calibration and audio consulting), over for a fun filled weekend to christen the theater and help me get it tuned up. John Schuermann of The Screening Room also attended and gave us his reviewer's view of the theater.
> 
> I don't want to hijack this thread so please email me at our Lumagen support email if you would like additional details. Of course, if your questions are appropriate for this thread (e.g. Radiance Pro setup for the RS4500) I think it is fine to ask questions here.


I don't think you can hijack the thread about Lumagen!


Looks like your live about 9 miles from my brother in Portland.
Even more reasons to visit him.

Mike


----------



## audioguy

I have decided to join the Lumagen club. 

I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!

This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.


----------



## Wookii

audioguy said:


> I have decided to join the Lumagen club.


I knew it was only a matter of time Chuck


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> I have decided to join the Lumagen club.
> 
> 
> 
> I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!
> 
> 
> 
> This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.




Congrats u will be impressed from what ur pic will be wait to ur first impressions 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> I knew it was only a matter of time Chuck


You may know me better than I know me.

It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the jump. I know lots of folks love this product, but until DTM, I really had zero interest.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> You may know me better than I know me.
> 
> It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the jump. I know lots of folks love this product, but until DTM, I really had zero interest.


Now you just need to replace the Paladin lens with a Paladin DCR lens to complete your journey down the very slippery slope !


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

audioguy said:


> I have decided to join the Lumagen club.
> 
> I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!
> 
> This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.





audioguy said:


> You may know me better than I know me.
> 
> It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the jump. I know lots of folks love this product, but until DTM, I really had zero interest.





Craig Peer said:


> Now you just need to replace the Paladin lens with a Paladin DCR lens to complete your journey down the very slippery slope !


And a Kaleidescope! HA! (You won't live forever. Might as well spend more of that retirement cash now! Then in a few years we can go live in the poorhouse together!)


----------



## audioguy

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> And a Kaleidescope! HA! (You won't live forever. Might as well spend more of that retirement cash now! Then in a few years we can go live in the poorhouse together!)


If I keep spending on this hobby like I have in the last 6 to 12 months (Trinnov, two new amps, 4 more speakers, RS4500, Lumagen, Paladin and calibration), I won't even be able to afford the poorhouse. 

I had a Kaleidescape system but sold it since, in my opinion and for my needs, it has far too many shortcomings for 4K/HDR. I want a 100% disc-less solution as I don't want to try and remember if the movie I want to watch is on the K system or on my shelf. I absolutely loved the K system for SDR since for movies K could not support, I could use the Disc Vault or use the Vault for my existing library. But since there is no 4K version of the Disc Vault, I still need a disc player for those movies K does not support. And, K is still releasing 4K movies with 5.1 audio even if the shiny disc has Atmos. Yes, they may eventually re-release an Atmos version but why would I want to watch again. Lastly, if K goes "toes up" AGAIN, for every movie you buy from them (and for which you do not have the shiny disc) you are screwed if your hardware fails. Yes, you may get digital rights to that movie, but I have not invested what I have in my audio and video system to be forced to watch movies with compressed audio and video.

And I have thought about swapping my Paladin for a DCR, but given the fairly small increase in light output, I am willing forgo that "upgrade". Given my screen size, throw distance and the addition of the Lumagen, I don't think I will be light-starved when viewing HDR films.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

audioguy said:


> If I keep spending on this hobby like I have in the last 6 to 12 months (Trinnov, two new amps, 4 more speakers, RS4500, Lumagen, Paladin and calibration), I won't even be able to afford the poorhouse.
> 
> I had a Kaleidescape system but sold it since, in my opinion and for my needs, it has far too many shortcomings for 4K/HDR. I want a 100% disc-less solution as I don't want to try and remember if the movie I want to watch is on the K system or on my shelf. I absolutely loved the K system for SDR since for movies K could not support, I could use the Disc Vault or use the Vault for my existing library. But since there is no 4K version of the Disc Vault, I still need a disc player for those movies K does not support. And, K is still releasing 4K movies with 5.1 audio even if the shiny disc has Atmos. Yes, they may eventually re-release an Atmos version but why would I want to watch again. Lastly, if K goes "toes up" AGAIN, for every movie you buy from them (and for which you do not have the shiny disc) you are screwed if your hardware fails. Yes, you may get digital rights to that movie, but I have not invested what I have in my audio and video system to be forced to watch movies with compressed audio and video.
> 
> And I have thought about swapping my Paladin for a DCR, but given the fairly small increase in light output, I am willing forgo that "upgrade". Given my screen size, throw distance and the addition of the Lumagen, I don't think I will be light-starved when viewing HDR films.


I was just joshin' you! HA! I get it!


----------



## darksets

audioguy said:


> I have decided to join the Lumagen club.
> 
> I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!
> 
> This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.



Congratulations! I also have a 4242 calibrated by Craig and I believe you will be very happy with the picture you'll get. Enjoy!


----------



## Wookii

Flo, I'm cross-quoting your post from the other thread, as the discussion is more relevant here. 

@jrp Jim, this is a discussion from another thread where Flo (owner of the excellent ProjectionDream website, and creator of a MadVR dynamic tone mapping add-on) is querying how Lumagen DTM is working, and more specifically how it is interacting with the Display Max Light setting, more specifically I think Flo's initial perception is that because we are entering a multiplier derived DML setting for projector set-ups, the system isn't tone mapping dynamically/correctly. I think Flo's perception is incorrect, so below is my attempt to explain it. I have brought the discussion here in the hope you can answer directly to Flo, and correct any errors in my explanations below.



Soulnight said:


> If what you say is up to date for the Lumagen DTM, and from what you are describing, lumagen dynamic tone mapping seems to still be using a fixed "display target nits / display max light setting" as madVR used to do in the past.
> In that state, only the movie peak defined in bt2390 is adjusted dynamically based on the measured frame peak.
> 
> In that level of development, projector users do have to lie and use a factor for the target nits so that the highlights become less compressed.


I may be misunderstanding but I suspect you've got the wrong end of the stick on this, but I'll do my best to full in the gaps as much as I'm able, where I can understand what you're asking. I am only a user on the outside looking in, I don't have working knowledge of exactly how the algorithms are constructed - you'd be better placed asking more specific questions on this thread so @jrp Jim can answer directly (as long as the answer isn't likely to expose any IP). But I'll have a stab at it:

The Radiance Display Max Light setting is simply inputting the displays measured peak brightness in its HDR mode. It is not in any way setting a hard clip point for the tone mapping algo (I think that what you were thinking above?). It works (as far as I am aware) in exactly the same way as your add-on that you describe works for MadVR, in that you enter the displays measured peak nits. 

The only difference is, they way the Radiance handles the figure that is entered, as it seems to assume it is for a flat panel where 1 nit input = 1 nit output, which obviously isn't appropriate for a projector, so we currently have to apply a multiplier to our measured peak luminance and enter that calculated figure, otherwise the overall picture level is too bright.

I will admit, I don't like having to do that, as you rightly point out, it adds too much guess work into the setting, and leads to trial and error to get the average picture level (nit-for-nit area excluding highlights) to what you would expect with the equivalent SDR version. I would much rather enter an actual measured peak nits as you describe, and then select a check box to tell the system that I'm using a projector so the nit-for-nit range is scaled correctly for projector use. I have requested this before. Jim can probably outline if the system cannot be altered to work this way for projector owners?



Soulnight said:


> Here a bit of history about madVR evolution in dynamic tone mapping:
> 
> MadVR went through that phase at some point with a static target nits for all movies a long time ago.
> While having a dynamic tone mapping up to the frame peak nits still helps a lot for decompressing the picture and give it back some pop, it's still far from optimal. A static target nits is a compromise for brightness and picture depth over all movies available.
> 
> Later on, @Manni01 introduced profile rules based on your REAL nits on the screen and the maxCLL of the movie to automatically select an appropriate target nits per movie.
> For a movie like blade runner 2049 with 99% of all frame peak below 150nits, it makes no sense to have a display target nits higher than that... EXCEPT if your display real nits is higher. Then you should use that instead so that you watch the movie with the correct brightness, and not brighter than intended.
> 
> Later on came the possibility to pre measure movie and to get more usefull variable like avgfmll, which is the avg frame peak throughout the movie. And then the target nits profiled evolved to use that instead of the often useless maxcll.
> 
> And then later again, Anna and I introduced a dynamic target nits algo within a add-on tool for madVR based on the measured histogram and peak.
> 
> Goal 1) is to have nits for nits rendered at the screen whenever possible for example if the frame peak is lower than your real nits at the screen. For that to happen you need know to tell the truth about your real nits. In your case 150nits. Any frame with a peak lower than 150nits, will be rendered perfectly /no compression with the original brightness. Target nits =real display nits.
> 
> Goal 2) is to never compress to much the highlights which would create a flat image. If the analysed frame is bright (high Fall value), then you need a higher target nits than your real nits. How high will depend on the frame. The meg can need target nits above 1000nits in some cases. But never higher than the frame peak because this would throw away brightness.
> 
> The Fall algo from our tool "madmeasurehdr optimizer" is now directly available in the LIVE algo without pre measurement needed.
> 
> Dynamic Target nits was kind of a revolution since you get much more brightness whenever possible and much more picture depth whenever needed, per movie and changing dynamically during a movie.
> 
> And dynamic target nits is only possible if madVR/Lumagen knows your real nits.


As I mentioned above, as far as the system is concerned the user is entering their real nits, its just as a projector owner you've got to fudge the figure a bit to get there (as I say, I don't like having to do that, but that's how is currently works). 

The end result however is still the same, and your Goals 1) and 2) are achieved, and is how I understand Lumagen DTM works currently in that every frame, or 'scene' is rendered based on its frame/scene MaxCLL and MaxY (Lumagens nomenclature for MaxFALL), plus no doubt other factors I'm not privy too.

Your comment "Dynamic Target nits was kind of a revolution since you get much more brightness whenever possible and much more picture depth whenever needed, per movie and changing dynamically during a movie." is exactly what many of us on this thread have found when Lumagens DTM was released.

Just out of interest, I assume your algo already takes account of the fact that a projector is being used, or you have some sort of check box to select a projector vs a flat panel? How do users account for differing preferences in average brightness level of the nit-for-nit range - similar to setting SDR peak luminance in that some might prefer 42nits (12FtL) while some prefer 61nits (18FtL)? I imagine there is still a bit of 'fudging' that has to be done on projectors 



Soulnight said:


> So we should probably differentiate or at least clarify what exactly is doing the Lumagen compared to madVR.
> 
> MadVR dynamic tone mapping per frame/scene includes:
> 
> - dynamic movie peak adjusted to frame peak
> - dynamic target nits
> - dynamic clipping
> As a consequence dark scene below your real display nits will all look identical regardless of the max projector lumens and nits on the screen.
> And bright scene will preserve hdr effect and contrast but will only be displayed less bright than intended.



OK, I'll try; as far as I can tell, the above is essentially exactly what Lumagen DTM is doing.

- I don't believe there is any 'dynamic movie peak', just dynamic frame (or group of similar frames = 'scene') peak
- I'm not sure what you mean by dynamic target nits? I believe there is just the measured frame/scene peak nits, and the user entered display peak nits. DTM will then render the frame based on that. Where frame peak nits display peak nits, the DTM algo will then tone map the highlights whilst trying to preserve as much of the nit-for-nit range as possible without overly compressing the highlights.

For more clarification, this is a recent post Jim made on that same subject:



jrp said:


> - Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.
> 
> - So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.
> 
> - I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.
> 
> - We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the


----------



## Soulnight

@Wookii

Thanks for bringing the topic here.

Here the begining of the discussion:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...k-dlp-laser-12-999k-msrp-66.html#post57954362

Again from your new explanation, it seems that Lumagen only implemented the first stone of dynamic tone mapping.

And that is using the frame peak instead of the movie peak in the bt2390 formulas.

However: display target nits, also defined in the bt2390 can also be made dynamic as it has been done in madVR. And this has a huge positive impact on the global picture.
And you can only do that if you can enter your real nits "somewhere" so that madVR / lumagen could decide on the fly what display target nits should be used with real nits as the low bound (or 2×real nits if you want to put the diffuse white at 50nits for projector)

I'll let Jim answer that.

In any case, dynamic peak was already something we considered as a big improvement for madVR. So I can imagine how Lumagen users would be happy going from completely static to dynamic tone mapping up to frame peak.

But the improvement with dynamic display target nits was even bigger in my opinion. As it impacts the global brightness on the fly. If done well to be invisible, you can 1:1 brightness in some cases with real nits=target nits or preserve picture dynamic range (at the cost of a dimmer picture) instead of compressing too much by raising the target nits as much as necessary.
The smart resides in how to choose this dynamic target nits since no paper is describing it.


----------



## Wookii

Soulnight said:


> @Wookii
> 
> Thanks for bringing the topic here.


No problem, I thought it was the best move, then @jrp Jim or Patrick (I forget his forum handle), or maybe even @Kris Deering or @Gordon Fraser (who will be much more technically versed on this than me) can come back to you.



Soulnight said:


> But the improvement with *dynamic display target nits* was even bigger in my opinion. As it impacts the global brightness on the fly. If done well to be invisible, you can 1:1 brightness in some cases with real nits=target nits or preserve picture dynamic range (at the cost of a dimmer picture) instead of compressing too much by raising the target nits as much as necessary. The smart resides in how to choose this dynamic target nits since no paper is describing it.


Can you clarify what you mean by "dynamic display target nits" Flo? I don't understand how you are differentiating this from "dynamic frame nits"? Feel free to use a practical example to explain the difference as that might be easier to follow.


----------



## Soulnight

Wookii said:


> Can you clarify what you mean by "dynamic display target nits" Flo? I don't understand how you are differentiating this from "dynamic frame nits"? Feel free to use a practical example to explain the difference as that might be easier to follow.


Easy. For each frame of the movie, you stop the picture, and adjust the display target nits, or what lumagen calls "Display Max Light" until the picture look the best for you for this single frame. You will end up with very different value for dark content and for bright content.

Please have a look at page 22 of the Rep. ITU-R BT.2390-5 if you want to understand the math behind.

In the document, display target nits is refered to as:
"target display maximum (Lmax) luminances".


What the "basic" dynamic tone mapping is adjusting on the other hand, is called "mastering display white luminances: LW". It happens on the fly with the measured current frame peak.

Of course both the dynamic Lw and Lmax need to be smooth / resetted at scene cut to have an enjoyable experience without visible pumping.

MadVR have both Lw and Lmax dynamic. And from your description, Lumagen has only Lw.


----------



## Wookii

Soulnight said:


> Easy. For each frame of the movie, you stop the picture, and adjust the display target nits, or what lumagen calls "Display Max Light" until the picture look the best for you for this single frame. You will end up with very different value for dark content and for bright content.
> 
> Please have a look at page 22 of the Rep. ITU-R BT.2390-5 if you want to understand the math behind.
> 
> In the document, display target nits is refered to as:
> "target display maximum (Lmax) luminances".
> 
> 
> What the "basic" dynamic tone mapping is adjusting on the other hand, is called "mastering display white luminances: LW". It happens on the fly with the measured current frame peak.
> 
> Of course both the dynamic Lw and Lmax need to be smooth / resetted at scene cut to have an enjoyable experience without visible pumping.
> 
> MadVR have both Lw and Lmax dynamic. And from your description, Lumagen has only Lw.


I'm struggling to understand how this would work in practical terms Flo (so please bear with me). Are you saying you raise the average luminance of a dark scene so that it occupies a greater proportion of the displays available brightness range, i.e. output nits > input nits?

As I say, its probably best demonstrating with some work examples:

So say you have a projector set-up with a measured peak nits of 100 nits. Say you want to target average brightness (excluding highlights) in movies to look similar to their SDR counterparts, so roughly 2 nits input to 1 nit output (on screen).

You have four frames (or Scenes) with a MaxCLL of 50nits, 150nits, 1000 nits and 2500nits respectively.

In my (basic) understanding of dynamic tone mapping, the first two frames/scenes, would effectively be shown nit for nit (or 2 nits for 1 nit on our projector) with no tone mapping since they both fall within the displays physical luminance range.

The 1000nit frame falls beyond the displays brightness range so the DTM system has to choose a proportion of the input range to maintain as nit-for-nit (2 nits input for 1 nit output on our projector), and a proportion to allocate for tone mapping the highlights (obviously with some sort of smooth transition between the two) - for example, maybe the first 150 nits input to the displays 0-75nit output range, and reserves the remaining 25 nits output range to tone map the highlights (151-1000nits input) into.

The 2500nit frame falls even further beyond the displays brightness range so the DTM system has to choose a smaller proportion of the input to maintain as nit-for-nit (2 nits for 1 nit on our projector) to allow greater display output range to map the highlights into. For example, maybe the first 100 nits input to the displays 0-50nit output range, and reserves the remaining 50 nits output range to tone map the highlights (101-2500 input nits) into.

It's obviously a very over-simplified example, with simplified round numbers just to get the idea across, but that is my (very basic) understanding of how dynamic tone mapping works. That prioritises the nit-for-nit range and maintains the average brightness level of that nit for nit range where most of the content exists, and as it would have been viewed during mastering (as in one movie scene to the next).

Now eventually to the question, which is the purpose of my post, how does changing the Display Max Light (Lmax) dynamically, affect how those scenes are rendered on screen?


----------



## SJHT

Interesting stuff.  I think Jim specifically mentioned he would be not be describing in too much detail how they do it for IP reasons. Call it magic!


----------



## Soulnight

Wookii said:


> I'm struggling to understand how this would work in practical terms Flo (so please bear with me). Are you saying you raise the average luminance of a dark scene so that it occupies a greater proportion of the displays available brightness range, i.e. output nits > input nits?
> 
> As I say, its probably best demonstrating with some work examples:
> 
> So say you have a projector set-up with a measured peak nits of 100 nits. Say you want to target average brightness (excluding highlights) in movies to look similar to their SDR counterparts, so roughly 2 nits input to 1 nit output (on screen).
> 
> You have four frames (or Scenes) with a MaxCLL of 50nits, 150nits, 1000 nits and 2500nits respectively.
> 
> In my (basic) understanding of dynamic tone mapping, the first two frames/scenes, would effectively be shown nit for nit (or 2 nits for 1 nit on our projector) with no tone mapping since they both fall within the displays physical luminance range.
> 
> The 1000nit frame falls beyond the displays brightness range so the DTM system has to choose a proportion of the input range to maintain as nit-for-nit (2 nits input for 1 nit output on our projector), and a proportion to allocate for tone mapping the highlights (obviously with some sort of smooth transition between the two) - for example, maybe the first 150 nits input to the displays 0-75nit output range, and reserves the remaining 25 nits output range to tone map the highlights (151-1000nits input) into.
> 
> The 2500nit frame falls even further beyond the displays brightness range so the DTM system has to choose a smaller proportion of the input to maintain as nit-for-nit (2 nits for 1 nit on our projector) to allow greater display output range to map the highlights into. For example, maybe the first 100 nits input to the displays 0-50nit output range, and reserves the remaining 50 nits output range to tone map the highlights (101-2500 input nits) into.
> 
> It's obviously a very over-simplified example, with simplified round numbers just to get the idea across, but that is my (very basic) understanding of how dynamic tone mapping works. That prioritises the nit-for-nit range and maintains the average brightness level of that nit for nit range where most of the content exists, and as it would have been viewed during mastering (as in one movie scene to the next).
> 
> Now eventually to the question, which is the purpose of my post, how does changing the Display Max Light (Lmax) dynamically, affect how those scenes are rendered on screen?



In your initial post, you mentioned at the beginning that you had 150nits on the screen but where using a fixed display target nits (display max light: Lmax) of 500nits instead.

500/150 gives you a factor 3.3.
It means that instead of having your diffuse white of 100nits shown at 100nits, or even at 50nits if we speak about old sdr projector standard, you have effectively your diffuse white at 33nits.

In your example if you were using 300 target nits instead, you would be getting a nice 2:1 ratio for diffuse white brightness. Would look very nice for all dark scene.
Why did you not do it? Simple. Because you had to compromise. If you play the movie the Meg with some frame with a FALL over 1000nits (!!!), a display target nits of 300 would be too low and everything would get flattened, blown-out.
Why? Because you have to compress everything avove 300nits and put it below. If you compress 300nits to 4000nits within let's say 100(bt2390 knee start) to 300nits, you are compressed extremely heavily. And if like in the Meg 90% of the picture is above 300nits to begin with, you are basically heavily compressing the whole picture!
To compress less and retain some hdr effect, you would have to raise the target nits to something like 1000 or higher in some scene of the meg.

But at the same time, if you have 100nits, and you want a 2:1 mapping up to the diffuse white, you need to choose 200 Target nits. This will give you great results for any frame peak below 200. But 200 Target nits will be very inadequate for bright scenes. Depending on how bright you will want to go up with your target nits to retain hdr and image plasticity.

Therefore, dynamic target nits is a great solution to display dark content as bright as your projector can (1:1 or 2:1 depending on your taste) and bright content with a still a great in picture contrast/hdr with a higher target nits.

With a static, you have to pick a middle and it's never optimal.

Edit:

And the smaller the real nits you get on the screen, the worse the compromise. With only 50nits on the screen for example, it would be a veeeery bad idea to pick a display target nits of 2:1 because most movie would look completely blown out. From experience a 300 static target nits is a good compromise with 50 real nits. But that's a factor 6 on the diffuse white!!
Here dynamic target nits is even more important so that you can have 100 target nits (2:1) for scene with a peak lower than 100nits. And higher target nits 200,300,400,... 1000 and more for brighter scene to retain some hdr effect and picture depth.


----------



## Wookii

Soulnight said:


> 500/150 gives you a factor 3.3.
> It means that instead of having your diffuse white of 100nits shown at 100nits, or even at 50nits if we speak about old sdr projector standard, you have effectively your diffuse white at 33nits.


Thanks for the explanation, that’s a bit clearer.

If I wanted to test that would measuring 18% windowed test pattern at 100 nit input be sufficient? In that case are you anticipating that would be 33nits?



Soulnight said:


> In your example if you were using 300 target nits instead, you would be getting a nice 2:1 ratio for diffuse white brightness. Would look very nice for all dark scene.
> Why did you not do it? Simple. Because you had to compromise. If you play the movie the Meg with some frame with a FALL over 1000nits (!!!), a display target nits of 300 would be too low and everything would get flattened, blown-out.


I have the Meg, but I’ve not tried it under DTM, do you have a time stamp I can take a look at?


----------



## beastaudio

Ok so we all know that the new paladin DCR lens will add 30% more brightness to a scope setup vs. zooming. My question is, with the Lumagen, do you get more brightness preserved in a scope presentation as well? Do we know the percentage?

Also, how well does the lumagen handle mixed aspect ratio movies? 

I know these questions have likely been asked many times but I couldn't turn up in search a distinct answer for the first one at least...


----------



## Craig Peer

beastaudio said:


> Ok so we all know that the new paladin DCR lens will add 30% more brightness to a scope setup vs. zooming. My question is, with the Lumagen, do you get more brightness preserved in a scope presentation as well? Do we know the percentage?
> 
> Also, how well does the lumagen handle mixed aspect ratio movies?
> 
> I know these questions have likely been asked many times but I couldn't turn up in search a distinct answer for the first one at least...


I only use the Lumagen and scope screen with the DCR lens, which gives me 38% more light ( as actually measured ) when using 4096 x 2160, vs zooming using 3840 x 2160. Used this way, with a DCR lens, mixed aspect ratio movies just become scope movies. Period. Nobody in my theater even notices. If I want to watch them as aspect ratio changing movies ( Dunkirk comes to mind since over 1/2 of that film is 16:9 ), I just watch them on my 16:9 screen.

I just want to add, the scenes I looked at last night with the Lumagen DTM - several in Passengers, and Oblivion - including the dark interrogation scenes with Morgan Freeman in the dark - looked profoundly better to me than without the HDR tone mapping. 

I'm still surprised how much my RS4500 has evolved over 2 years, with the JVC firmware updates, the Panamorph DCR lens, the Lumagen Radiance Pro and now dynamic HDR tone mapping. It's like having a completely new and improved projector when it comes to watching 4K HDR. The difference is astounding !


----------



## beastaudio

Craig Peer said:


> I only use the Lumagen and scope screen with the DCR lens, which gives me 38% more light ( as actually measured ) when using 4096 x 2160, vs zooming using 3840 x 2160. Used this way, with a DCR lens, mixed aspect ratio movies just become scope movies. Period. Nobody in my theater even notices. If I want to watch them as aspect ratio changing movies ( Dunkirk comes to mind since over 1/2 of that film is 16:9 ), I just watch them on my 16:9 screen.
> 
> I just want to add, the scenes I looked at last night with the Lumagen DTM - several in Passengers, and Oblivion - including the dark interrogation scenes with Morgan Freeman in the dark - looked profoundly better to me than without the HDR tone mapping.
> 
> I'm still surprised how much my RS4500 has evolved over 2 years, with the JVC firmware updates, the Panamorph DCR lens, the Lumagen Radiance Pro and now dynamic HDR tone mapping. It's like having a completely new and improved projector when it comes to watching 4K HDR. The difference is astounding !


Thanks Craig but my question was that if you chose NOT to use the DCR, would the lumagen's aspect manipulation software preserve some brightness just like the DCR regains by not having to zoom the PJ. It doesn't sound like this is the case, since using the lumagen you would still have to use the zoom method for a scope source. I was hoping since you could use the lumagen to stretch a 16:9 image out to scope, that you could then further stretch a scope source vertically and not have to use the zoom method.


----------



## Craig Peer

beastaudio said:


> Thanks Craig but my question was that if you chose NOT to use the DCR, would the lumagen's aspect manipulation software preserve some brightness just like the DCR regains by not having to zoom the PJ. It doesn't sound like this is the case, since using the lumagen you would still have to use the zoom method for a scope source. I was hoping since you could use the lumagen to stretch a 16:9 image out to scope, that you could then further stretch a scope source vertically and not have to use the zoom method.


You kind of need either a HE lens to expand the picture horizontally back into the correct aspect ratio, or a VC lens to compress it vertically back into the correct aspect ratio.


----------



## beastaudio

Craig Peer said:


> You kind of need either a HE lens to expand the picture horizontally back into the correct aspect ratio, or a VC lens to compress it vertically back into the correct aspect ratio.


Im sure my trusty ole uh380 could handle that then, but what I was hoping to do was accomplish everything just within a lumagen processor and avoid a lens.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 042019*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 042019*
Found and fixed issues with HLG tone mapping and also now have it working with DTM. 
Fixed an issue causing a flickering effect in some scenes with DTM. 
DTM improved to avoid some undesirable tonemap updates. 
New 18 Ghz input chip firmware from chip vendor which fixes an Apple TV audio dropout issue. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 042019*
> Found and fixed issues with HLG tone mapping and also now have it working with DTM.
> Fixed an issue causing a flickering effect in some scenes with DTM.
> DTM improved to avoid some undesirable tonemap updates.
> New 18 Ghz input chip firmware from chip vendor which fixes an Apple TV audio dropout issue.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update


I've just installed and given this a go, looks great, ATV4k audio fix is working well, and has fixed up a few issues I'd reported in to Lumagen. Hats off to the guys at Lumagen, many thanks Patrick for the continued updates. Keeps getting better.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> I've just installed and given this a go, looks great, *ATV4k audio fix is working well*, and has fixed up a few issues I'd reported in to Lumagen. Hats off to the guys at Lumagen, many thanks Patrick for the continued updates. Keeps getting better.


And you were just talking about this issue in another thread. " Voila' " - there's a fix !


----------



## jrp

I am not a photographer but in response to requests here I took a couple pictures of the Lumagen Demo Theater.

The knickknacks on shelves are LOTR reproductions include "Sting" and a couple pipes, etc. The glasses have etched text in "LOTR Elvish." We have two additional LOTR swords and a shield in the hall not pictured. In the theater we have four faux "hand hewn" look beams each with a hand forged sconce to give a slight castle look (okay very slight).

Certainly a very mild rendition of a LOTR theme but we like it.


----------



## jrp

Soulnight said:


> @Wookii
> 
> Thanks for bringing the topic here.
> 
> Here the begining of the discussion:
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...k-dlp-laser-12-999k-msrp-66.html#post57954362
> 
> Again from your new explanation, it seems that Lumagen only implemented the first stone of dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> And that is using the frame peak instead of the movie peak in the bt2390 formulas.


There is obviously a misunderstanding of how the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping works. It definitely dynamically adjusts both the scene max light (a.k.a. Lw), and the display max target (a.k.a. LMax) on a scene by scene basis. Doing this is not optional for dynamic tone mapping.

Perhaps what was missed is that the HDR parameter "Ratio" adjusts the display target max on an input and input memory basis and separately for darker movies and brighter movies (low set and high set). The Radiance Pro allows the user to adjust these to match the TV/projector and their personal taste. We have refined our defaults to the point where we feel that almost all users will be very happy with the defaults. So that the only adjustment needed by most users is the "Display Max Light" in the CMS. Dynamic Tone Mapping makes it even less necessary to adjust the HDR Parameters (IMO).

Someone complained that there was some trial and error setting Display Max Light, but I think this is an advantage and not a detriment. In any case it is what we choose to do and I am very happy with how it works. It is very straight forward to set Display Max Light once you get the hang of it.

Current Dynamic Tone Mapping uses the low set Ratio (LMax if you prefer) for darker scenes, and the High set Ratio (LMax again) for bright movies. The Low and High set Shape and Transition also play a key role. It then dynamically interpolates, the low/high Display Max Light (LMax), Shape, Transition, and of course the dynamically calculated scene max light (Lw), and so takes user settings/preferences into account appropriately for each scene's brightness. Stated more explicitly display target max is not the same for dark scenes and bright scenes.

==== 

I have completed C code for a new low/high blend algorithm and have handed it off for Patrick to work his magic in integrating it in the software and in the FPGA code. I likely should not mention this since while it looks like a nice improvement in plots we have yet to see it on the screen. It may not prove visibly better (but I think it will). 

*If* we decide to switch to the new algorithm it has three control points for Display Max Light (LMax again). These are at the display max, 1000 nits, and 5000 nits, and then the >5000 range is handled somewhat like the display max to 1000 nit range only going from 5000 nits to 10000 nits.

In the current implementation the Low Set Shape and Transition have no effect at the display max (but some effect as the scene max rises). The current implementation interpolates the highly non-linear changes in the transfer function in one section from the display max up to the high end of the curve. While this is working very well, I think the new algorithm will be better, and I have it completed and ready to implement. It breaks the interpolation into Display Max up to 1000 nits, then 1000 nits to 5000 nits (and then there is additional processing for over 5000 nits). This significantly improves the accuracy of the blend for dark scenes (whether this will be visible is unknown). It also uses a different algorithm from Display Max to 1000, than it does from 1000 to 5000 nits, which gives us more accurate interpolation.

I probably should not have mentioned this until we know if we will use it or not, but it seems appropriate for this post. So, you may, or may not, see this new blend algorithm in a release in a couple weeks.

==== 

I believe Patrick has done an amazing job on the his algorithms and implementation of scene detection. I have been told by someone who's opinion I respect that it is better than professional editing suite's scene detection. Patrick has been able to completely resolve (or in one or two cases significantly improve) each scene sent to us to look at. This is a real tightrope walk since the scene being worked on has to be improved without breaking any other scenes. In my testing (looking at a debug version with the scene detection information visible) i continue to be impressed how the Pro scene detection catches cases I didn't think it could. It also does an excellent job of not having false detection of a scene change that causes a visible change in the middle of a scene. Patrick is still working on a couple scenes with bright flashes that "look" like a new scene, but has already significantly improved the ones we know about.

As you find new scenes for us to work on please send them to us at the Lumagen support email. It is impossible to have perfect scene detection, and so we know as good as it is already we can improve it with your help finding the scenes that need attention.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> I am not a photographer but in response to requests here I took a couple pictures of the Lumagen Demo Theater.
> 
> 
> 
> The knickknacks on shelves are LOTR reproductions include "Sting" and a couple pipes, etc. The glasses have etched text in "LOTR Elvish." We have two additional LOTR swords and a shield in the hall not pictured. In the theater we have four faux "hand hewn" look beams each with a hand forged sconce to give a slight castle look (okay very slight).
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly a very mild rendition of a LOTR theme but we like it.




Love it Will done 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> We have refined our defaults to the point where we feel that almost all users will be very happy with the defaults. So that the only adjustment needed by most users is the "Display Max Light" in the CMS. Dynamic Tone Mapping makes it even less necessary to adjust the HDR Parameters (IMO).
> 
> Someone complained that there was some trial and error setting Display Max Light, but I think this is an advantage and not a detriment. In any case it is what we choose to do and I am very happy with how it works. It is very straight forward to set Display Max Light once you get the hang of it.


Guilty as charged!  . Indeed now I have good P3 LUTS loaded in the Pro (using the hack discovered to make the X7900 units have a linear mode with the WCG filter enabled) I don't change any of the settings (other than the level of DTM for some sources) and am very happy with the results seen so far. I too have been very pleasantly surprised with what has been achieved on what is clearly a hard problem.

A bit of experience has shown me that for my peak white, display size / viewing angle and room lighting the "correct" Display Max Light setting is about 300-400 for 75 nits peak and about 500-600 for 130 nits peak. I do wonder if a curve could be fitted to that control to make it represent something more like the real measured max nits, though I guess that would deter experimentation that might be beneficial if there were all of a sudden only one "right" answer for it. And probably it would need to be at least two controls really, one that defined the measured max nits and one that defined the field of view that those nits were occupying (maybe even a third control to define the room ambient...). When I think in those terms, actually just fiddling the Display Max Light (which takes moments) is perhaps the easier approach. It is easy for us in our projection bubble to think that everyone is doing projection, but of course this isn't true.

I think my comments with respect to the rest of the controls were really more related to "paradox of choice" matters, which being a self confessed "maximizer" affects me more than most (interesting reading and insight into the way many of us on these forums are; book exec summary here: https://keithdwalker.ca/wp-content/summaries/m-p/Paradox of Choice.Schwartz.EBS.pdf).


----------



## Soulnight

jrp said:


> There is obviously a misunderstanding of how the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping works. It definitely dynamically adjusts both the scene max light (a.k.a. Lw), and the display max target (a.k.a. LMax) on a scene by scene basis. Doing this is not optional for dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> Perhaps what was missed is that the HDR parameter "Ratio" adjusts the display target max on an input and input memory basis and separately for darker movies and brighter movies (low set and high set). The Radiance Pro allows the user to adjust these to match the TV/projector and their personal taste. We have refined our defaults to the point where we feel that almost all users will be very happy with the defaults. So that the only adjustment needed by most users is the "Display Max Light" in the CMS. Dynamic Tone Mapping makes it even less necessary to adjust the HDR Parameters (IMO).
> 
> Someone complained that there was some trial and error setting Display Max Light, but I think this is an advantage and not a detriment. In any case it is what we choose to do and I am very happy with how it works. It is very straight forward to set Display Max Light once you get the hang of it.
> 
> Current Dynamic Tone Mapping uses the low set Ratio (LMax if you prefer) for darker scenes, and the High set Ratio (LMax again) for bright movies. The Low and High set Shape and Transition also play a key role. It then dynamically interpolates, the low/high Display Max Light (LMax), Shape, Transition, and of course the dynamically calculated scene max light (Lw), and so takes user settings/preferences into account appropriately for each scene's brightness. Stated more explicitly display target max is not the same for dark scenes and bright scenes.


Thank you for the explanation. You are correct that I did not know of the "Ratio" settings since it seems that most Lumagen user keep default settings currently and therefore do not mention it.
This raises some other questions. 

So, to take back the case of @Wookii :
He has a projector with an on screen brightness of 150nits. He has set-up the "display max light" to 500nits.
From what he wrote earlier in this thread, he is using the "default" settings for everything else including Ratio setting for both low and high sets.

A few questions:
1) What is the default ratio setting? 
2) Can this ratio both adjust from the display max light of 500nits to a lower value for a dark scene AND a higher value of Lmax for a bright scene? What would be the range of acceptable value for Lmax for Wookii calculated by the DTM?
To make the question a bit more precise: can Wookii get an dynamic "Display max Target" lower than 500nits? Can it even get lower than 300nits (2:1 ratio for diffuse white at 50nits?) or lower than his real nits (150) on screen (1:1 ratio with diffuse white at 100nits?)

3) How does Lumagen DTM ensures that the picture will never be displayed brighter than was encoded in nits on the UHD Bluray? Can the user input somewhere his Real nits?

4) How would DTM differentiate between:
a) a TV User with a real on screen brightness of 500nits and who sets the "display max light" to 500nits and is using default settings for everything else
b) a projector user like @Wookii with a real on screen brightness of 150nits but who set 500nits to "the display max light" as well.

In case a), you don't want ever to use a Lmax (Display Target nits) lower than 500nits so that the content is never shown brighter than coded on the UHD bluray
In case b), @Wookii would like to have 2:1 ratio whenever possible which means that the target nits (Lmax) should be able to drop to 300nits. Some other user might even want to have 1:1 whenever possible which would mean than Lmax should be able to go down up to 150nits Lmax (Target Nits).

Thank you. 
I think the clarification you provide will help the Lumagen users to better understand how to use DTM in itself.
It will also explain differences in rendering between madVR DTM and Lumagen DTM when compared.

Florian


----------



## audioguy

I have yet to receive my Lumagen and have it calibrated, but I sure hope there is a "set it and forget it" default mode, even if it does not *always* produce the most optimized results in *all* cases. I really prefer to not have to diddle with any Lumagen settings when we go to the theater to watch a movie. I wouldn't mind if there was a single setting to adjust *if I were in my "tweak mode"* but I'm trying very hard to make our theater as wife friendly as possible - and requiring her to diddle with Lumagen settings would be moving in the opposite direction. 

From reading much of the posting above, it is clearl that the majority of users who post on this thread are about 1 million times more knowledgeable than I am in all matters of video.


----------



## Mike_WI

audioguy said:


> I have yet to receive my Lumagen and have it calibrated, but I sure hope there is a "set it and forget it" default mode, even if it does not *always* produce the most optimized results in *all* cases. I really prefer to not have to diddle with any Lumagen settings when we go to the theater to watch a movie. I wouldn't mind if there was a single setting to adjust *if I were in my "tweak mode"* but I'm trying very hard to make our theater as wife friendly as possible - and requiring her to diddle with Lumagen settings would be moving in the opposite direction.
> 
> From reading much of the posting above, it is clearl that the majority of users who post on this thread are about 1 million times more knowledgeable than I am in all matters of video.


I think most people set and forget. Or hire someone to set it.
The DTM should make the dynamic adjustment happen in the background.
There will always be room for the tweakers that like to see what adjustments do.


----------



## bobof

Soulnight said:


> A few questions:
> 1) What is the default ratio setting?
> 2) Can this ratio both adjust from the display max light of 500nits to a lower value for a dark scene AND a higher value of Lmax for a bright scene? What would be the range of acceptable value for Lmax for Wookii calculated by the DTM?
> To make the question a bit more precise: can Wookii get an dynamic "Display max Target" lower than 500nits? Can it even get lower than 300nits (2:1 ratio for diffuse white at 50nits?) or lower than his real nits (150) on screen (1:1 ratio with diffuse white at 100nits?)


Hi Florian,

I believe the following will help your understanding for the above points; these are two shots I just took of DML400 with DTM enabled and disabled on the Masciola ramps. Deliberately underexposed to capture the highlights, so completely ignore the shadow detail (it is resolved almost all the way down with this 10,000 nit image, which I guess is as you would expect). Clearly there is detail resolved above the DML400 "limit" with DTM enabled. A couple of other shots also of DML set to 9900 and 50 to show the extremes. You can see with DML 50 it still appears to resolve up to well over 1000 nits, but that if you up it to 9900 you are resolving the few patches that DTM did clip at the lower settings (it actually starts to resolve all those boxes around 6000 if I recall).

Everything else in this image is factory I recall believe.

In terms of your other questions, I understand the point you are making; from what I can see if you had a 500 nit TV in a living room environment you'd actually want to set DML higher than 500 nits, and / or modify the Ratio I believe (don't have one so haven't tried to know exactly what). I think there are some levels of indirection here with the way the settings interact that make it a little harder to achieve a specific numeric goal, but at the same time you have to bear in mind that this has been built up in such a way that the significant number of folk who have had units professionally calibrated previously and set up with the old Intensity Mapping settings have been able to just upgrade their SW and it has added DTM seemingly without any additional configuration needed. Of course, at the moment most MadVR users of DTM are enthusiasts who are right "in the guts" of their tone mapping solution.

FWIW I am outputting P3 SDR with a 3DLUT to convert the native PJ gamut (x7900 profile off / filter on) to P3 2.4 gamma per Radiance requirements, 75 real nits on screen. Photos are just a Sony mobile phone so apologies for the quality, but I think they probably give you the idea.


----------



## loggeo

Soulnight said:


> Thank you for the explanation. You are correct that I did not know of the "Ratio" settings since it seems that most Lumagen user keep default settings currently and therefore do not mention it.
> This raises some other questions.
> 
> So, to take back the case of @Wookii :
> He has a projector with an on screen brightness of 150nits. He has set-up the "display max light" to 500nits.
> From what he wrote earlier in this thread, he is using the "default" settings for everything else including Ratio setting for both low and high sets.
> 
> A few questions:
> 1) What is the default ratio setting?
> 2) Can this ratio both adjust from the display max light of 500nits to a lower value for a dark scene AND a higher value of Lmax for a bright scene? What would be the range of acceptable value for Lmax for Wookii calculated by the DTM?
> To make the question a bit more precise: can Wookii get an dynamic "Display max Target" lower than 500nits? Can it even get lower than 300nits (2:1 ratio for diffuse white at 50nits?) or lower than his real nits (150) on screen (1:1 ratio with diffuse white at 100nits?)
> 
> 3) How does Lumagen DTM ensures that the picture will never be displayed brighter than was encoded in nits on the UHD Bluray? Can the user input somewhere his Real nits?
> 
> 4) How would DTM differentiate between:
> a) a TV User with a real on screen brightness of 500nits and who sets the "display max light" to 500nits and is using default settings for everything else
> b) a projector user like @Wookii with a real on screen brightness of 150nits but who set 500nits to "the display max light" as well.
> 
> In case a), you don't want ever to use a Lmax (Display Target nits) lower than 500nits so that the content is never shown brighter than coded on the UHD bluray
> In case b), @Wookii would like to have 2:1 ratio whenever possible which means that the target nits (Lmax) should be able to drop to 300nits. Some other user might even want to have 1:1 whenever possible which would mean than Lmax should be able to go down up to 150nits Lmax (Target Nits).
> 
> Thank you.
> I think the clarification you provide will help the Lumagen users to better understand how to use DTM in itself.
> It will also explain differences in rendering between madVR DTM and Lumagen DTM when compared.
> 
> Florian


This is more to validate the method we have been using so far and hopefully it helps with your questions. I never used just the default settings, so it will be interesting to recheck now. If only jvc would deliver my projector..
Lumagen has an adjustable MaxCLL crossover for static tone mapping. It defaults at 2500 nits. Therefore you can have different settings (presets) for above and below crossover settings. 
Its preset consists of some sub settings to optimize static tone mapping (ratio, shape, transition, hdsaturation, gamma, black).
While you set the display max light once (defaults at 500 nits but it is also adjustable), you can use the ratio sub setting to adjust max display light per preset.
Ideally you optimize the 2 presets and then enable the dynamic tone mapping.
At least this is what I have been doing with a temporary projector I have here.


----------



## nbynw

audioguy said:


> I have yet to receive my Lumagen and have it calibrated, but I sure hope there is a "set it and forget it" default mode, even if it does not *always* produce the most optimized results in *all* cases. I really prefer to not have to diddle with any Lumagen settings when we go to the theater to watch a movie. I wouldn't mind if there was a single setting to adjust *if I were in my "tweak mode"* but I'm trying very hard to make our theater as wife friendly as possible - and requiring her to diddle with Lumagen settings would be moving in the opposite direction.
> 
> From reading much of the posting above, it is clearl that the majority of users who post on this thread are about 1 million times more knowledgeable than I am in all matters of video.


Once you have it installed and your theatre calibrated you won't need to adjust anything. Everyone's theatre is unique and the smallest variable can create large problems - hdmi cables for example - and what you read may not be applicable to your theatre. I personally was so happy with my video that I did not install a single update for nearly 2 years - until the creation of DTM. A couple emails to Patrick and Jim prior to installing the update to confirm the process were answered nearly instantaneously. The customer service offered by Jim and Patrick is second to none. I installed the update in 15 minutes and the new DTM has breathed new life into my projector. 

So, yes, if you want it to be set it and forget it then it certainly can be.


----------



## audioguy

nbynw said:


> So, yes, if you want it to be set it and forget it then it certainly can be.


That is good to know. Thanks. As it turns out, a calibration client I am working with has a Lumagen and he has never touched it!!


----------



## SSnarski

jrp said:


> There is obviously a misunderstanding of how the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping works. It definitely dynamically adjusts both the scene max light (a.k.a. Lw), and the display max target (a.k.a. LMax) on a scene by scene basis. Doing this is not optional for dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> Perhaps what was missed is that the HDR parameter "Ratio" adjusts the display target max on an input and input memory basis and separately for darker movies and brighter movies (low set and high set). The Radiance Pro allows the user to adjust these to match the TV/projector and their personal taste. We have refined our defaults to the point where we feel that almost all users will be very happy with the defaults. So that the only adjustment needed by most users is the "Display Max Light" in the CMS. Dynamic Tone Mapping makes it even less necessary to adjust the HDR Parameters (IMO).
> 
> Someone complained that there was some trial and error setting Display Max Light, but I think this is an advantage and not a detriment. In any case it is what we choose to do and I am very happy with how it works. It is very straight forward to set Display Max Light once you get the hang of it.
> 
> Current Dynamic Tone Mapping uses the low set Ratio (LMax if you prefer) for darker scenes, and the High set Ratio (LMax again) for bright movies. The Low and High set Shape and Transition also play a key role. It then dynamically interpolates, the low/high Display Max Light (LMax), Shape, Transition, and of course the dynamically calculated scene max light (Lw), and so takes user settings/preferences into account appropriately for each scene's brightness. Stated more explicitly display target max is not the same for dark scenes and bright scenes.
> 
> ====
> 
> I have completed C code for a new low/high blend algorithm and have handed it off for Patrick to work his magic in integrating it in the software and in the FPGA code. I likely should not mention this since while it looks like a nice improvement in plots we have yet to see it on the screen. It may not prove visibly better (but I think it will).
> 
> *If* we decide to switch to the new algorithm it has three control points for Display Max Light (LMax again). These are at the display max, 1000 nits, and 5000 nits, and then the >5000 range is handled somewhat like the display max to 1000 nit range only going from 5000 nits to 10000 nits.
> 
> In the current implementation the Low Set Shape and Transition have no effect at the display max (but some effect as the scene max rises). The current implementation interpolates the highly non-linear changes in the transfer function in one section from the display max up to the high end of the curve. While this is working very well, I think the new algorithm will be better, and I have it completed and ready to implement. It breaks the interpolation into Display Max up to 1000 nits, then 1000 nits to 5000 nits (and then there is additional processing for over 5000 nits). This significantly improves the accuracy of the blend for dark scenes (whether this will be visible is unknown). It also uses a different algorithm from Display Max to 1000, than it does from 1000 to 5000 nits, which gives us more accurate interpolation.
> 
> I probably should not have mentioned this until we know if we will use it or not, but it seems appropriate for this post. So, you may, or may not, see this new blend algorithm in a release in a couple weeks.
> 
> ====
> 
> I believe Patrick has done an amazing job on the his algorithms and implementation of scene detection. I have been told by someone who's opinion I respect that it is better than professional editing suite's scene detection. Patrick has been able to completely resolve (or in one or two cases significantly improve) each scene sent to us to look at. This is a real tightrope walk since the scene being worked on has to be improved without breaking any other scenes. In my testing (looking at a debug version with the scene detection information visible) i continue to be impressed how the Pro scene detection catches cases I didn't think it could. It also does an excellent job of not having false detection of a scene change that causes a visible change in the middle of a scene. Patrick is still working on a couple scenes with bright flashes that "look" like a new scene, but has already significantly improved the ones we know about.
> 
> As you find new scenes for us to work on please send them to us at the Lumagen support email. It is impossible to have perfect scene detection, and so we know as good as it is already we can improve it with your help finding the scenes that need attention.


JRP

You posted - So that the only adjustment needed by most users is the "Display Max Light" in the CMS. 

? Is the CMS one of the settings in the lumagen - or is this something in the projector, i am pretty new to all this but trying to learn and keep up.

I do have the RS4500 DCR and Lumagen 4240 that i just purchased. I did the recent update this afternoon on the lumagen.

Many thanks


----------



## dinamigym

SSnarski said:


> JRP
> 
> 
> 
> You posted - So that the only adjustment needed by most users is the "Display Max Light" in the CMS.
> 
> 
> 
> ? Is the CMS one of the settings in the lumagen - or is this something in the projector, i am pretty new to all this but trying to learn and keep up.
> 
> 
> 
> I do have the RS4500 DCR and Lumagen 4240 that i just purchased. I did the recent update this afternoon on the lumagen.
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks




CMS is found in the Lumagen and stands for Color Management System. Stores settings used to calibrate display color.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Hi Florian,
> 
> I believe the following will help your understanding for the above points; these are two shots I just took of DML400 with DTM enabled and disabled on the Masciola ramps. Deliberately underexposed to capture the highlights, so completely ignore the shadow detail (it is resolved almost all the way down with this 10,000 nit image, which I guess is as you would expect). Clearly there is detail resolved above the DML400 "limit" with DTM enabled. A couple of other shots also of DML set to 9900 and 50 to show the extremes. You can see with DML 50 it still appears to resolve up to well over 1000 nits, but that if you up it to 9900 you are resolving the few patches that DTM did clip at the lower settings (it actually starts to resolve all those boxes around 6000 if I recall).
> 
> Everything else in this image is factory I recall believe.
> 
> In terms of your other questions, I understand the point you are making; from what I can see if you had a 500 nit TV in a living room environment you'd actually want to set DML higher than 500 nits, and / or modify the Ratio I believe (don't have one so haven't tried to know exactly what). I think there are some levels of indirection here with the way the settings interact that make it a little harder to achieve a specific numeric goal, but at the same time you have to bear in mind that this has been built up in such a way that the significant number of folk who have had units professionally calibrated previously and set up with the old Intensity Mapping settings have been able to just upgrade their SW and it has added DTM seemingly without any additional configuration needed. Of course, at the moment most MadVR users of DTM are enthusiasts who are right "in the guts" of their tone mapping solution.
> 
> FWIW I am outputting P3 SDR with a 3DLUT to convert the native PJ gamut (x7900 profile off / filter on) to P3 2.4 gamma per Radiance requirements, 75 real nits on screen. Photos are just a Sony mobile phone so apologies for the quality, but I think they probably give you the idea.



Would that be a reliable method to determine MaxLight, using a ramp?

-roland


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> Would that be a reliable method to determine MaxLight, using a ramp?


Hi Roland,

I spent much of yesterday locked away in the cinema room trying to get my head around it and what should be the "correct" settings for my room. much of it prompted by trying to get my head around the questions @Soulnight mentions ("thanks"...  no really I mean it, it is good to learn  ) Still not really there and hopefully we could get a definitive guide to these parameters at some point.
I'm not sure(!) is the honest answer.

Per my understanding; if you had a movie scene which had all the pixels between 0 and 100 nits (notionally the diffuse white level if it was SDR) you'd want that SDR level to be around what you would have had your diffuse level for projection previously (so I guess around 41-55 nit depending on your preference?).

I've previously just set DML by eye, which recently with DTM has been around the 400 level, but we all know how fallible the Calibrated Eyeball Mk 1 is, so my honest preference would be for a solid method to set these parameters correctly via measurement.

With the default settings showing these kind of ramp images the level of the 100 nits patch gets dropped right down, and if you then removed the highlights and showed the image again you'd see the 100 nits using a much greater amount of the dynamic range.

If I leave the settings at default and just play with DML parameter, and enabling / disabling DTM (also checked the DTM settings), displaying just a 92 nit patch (it was the closest I had on UHD disc) then I actually have to raise my DML much higher than I had previously expected to get the diffuse white to be around the typical SDR levels I would have. I'd need to have my DML set to around 700 with my paltry 74 nits peak for the patch to look similar to how it would under SDR at typical levels. I spent some time yesterday watching some content at 700 and it looked great to be honest. 

If you have, say, 150 nits like @Wookii has and DML at 500 then an SDR-esque scene within an HDR10 container (100 nits max content) would be much brighter than the equivalent from an SDR source configured for "normal" SDR projection levels.

DTM results in a much brighter image for that kind of scene with the same DML settings vs DTM off with just intensity mapping. See the table I did below. 









For what it is worth (little really, but was interesting to look into) this is the MadVR tonemapped image from Lucy (courtesy of @Javs ) on my macbook photographed in front of my projection screen showing the same image from UHD source. At 700 nits DML it was a much closer match for how MadVR it seems would have mapped that image. As you lower the DML it gets much brighter in the midtones as expected; which perhaps looks more pleasing in isolation, but what about the intent?
Edit: I should add, in reality there is much more shadow detail in both images, but the camera crushes it to avoid clipping the whites.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> I spent some time yesterday watching some content at 700 and it looked great to be honest.


 That's interesting. 

I'm in the range of 110-130 nits and use 700 since IM. That was a decision I made when I tested several ST.2084 LUTs. But for IM to work with 700 you have to tweak the other parameters a bit. 

With DTM I can leave all parameters where they were.


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> If you have, say, 150 nits like @Wookii has and DML at 500 then an SDR-esque scene within an HDR10 container (100 nits max content) would be much brighter than the equivalent from an SDR source configured for "normal" SDR projection levels.


Nice work James, that’s really interesting. I have thought for a while that the average picture levels looked brighter under DTM than IM, but hadn’t got around to trying to measure anything.

I’ll run some measures tonight and post for comparison purposes, it will be interesting to see if it tracks in a similar way. However if your DTM percentage column is correct, and you’re running at a DML setting of 700 with 75 peak nits off screen, it would suggest for my 150nits, I need the DML setting to be up around 1400-1500?

I really do wish we had the option to tell the Radiance Pro that a projector was being used, and enter the actual measured peak luminance. It would take out a lot of the guesswork. Perhaps now Jim has an RS4500 set up and running to test it on, this might be a possible future development.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> I'm in the range of 110-130 nits and use 700 since IM. That was a decision I made when I tested several ST.2084 LUTs. But for IM to work with 700 you have to tweak the other parameters a bit.
> 
> With DTM I can leave all parameters where they were.


Yes, it is all very interesting. As I say when I've set this by eye I've settled lower typically; my process has usually gone "too bright, too bright, that starts to look nice, that looks good, that looks darker than what I thought looked good, back up"... which I can see now gives me brighter than typical reference SDR diffuse white. Damn you, lying eyes! .

So have you put up a 100 nit (or 92 nit) test image with your current settings? what level do you end up with when you do that?

I'm certainly not saying using the DML control to hit source 100 nits at reference SDR levels is the right way to set these up; I just found it interesting how it all seems to behave given what my internal calibration was telling me to set DML to.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Nice work James, that’s really interesting. I have thought for a while that the average picture levels looked brighter under DTM than IM, but hadn’t got around to trying to measure anything.
> 
> I’ll run some measures tonight and post for comparison purposes, it will be interesting to see if it tracks in a similar way. However if your DTM percentage column is correct, and you’re running at a DML setting of 700 with 75 peak nits off screen, it would suggest for my 150nits, I need the DML setting to be up around 1400-1500?
> 
> I really do wish we had the option to tell the Radiance Pro that a projector was being used, and enter the actual measured peak luminance. It would take out a lot of the guesswork. Perhaps now Jim has an RS4500 set up and running to test it on, this might be a possible future development.


If I recall right the DML stopped doing anything "useful" for that 92 nit patch much above 900 nits, I think that was it slowing right down and probably why I didn't go any higher.

As per my note to Karl - I'm certainly not saying this is a right way to set them up, but I was interested in how bright that 92 nit patch ended up on my screen given my limited nits.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> So have you put up a 100 nit (or 92 nit) test image with your current settings? what level do you end up with when you do that?


No, I have to admit that it was based on a multiplier I used in LightSpace and found suitable for average picture brightness in my setup. If I remember correctly, it was somewhere between 5.5 and 6.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> No, I have to admit that it was based on a multiplier I used in LightSpace and found suitable for average picture brightness in my setup. If I remember correctly, it was somewhere between 5.5 and 6.


We've come at it from similar angles I think. I also started my HDR journey with LUTs created in LS using the manual multiplier option, so have grown accustomed to the "suck it and see" approach...


----------



## audioguy

The more I read in this thread the more glad I am that I have chosen to have my Lumagen calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing.

What seems to be happening in the last several posts is a lot of "nit picking"!!  (I'm sorry, I just could not control myself)


----------



## Wookii

audioguy said:


> The more I read in this thread the more glad I am that I have chosen to have my Lumagen calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> What seems to be happening in the last several posts is a lot of "nit picking"!!  (I'm sorry, I just could not control myself)


Chuck, think of it as being similar to adjusting the target curve and the advanced Optimiser settings in the Trinnov Altitude - not so much 'nit picking' as trying to adjust settings to optimise performance.


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> Chuck, think of it as being similar to adjusting the target curve and the advanced Optimiser settings in the Trinnov Altitude - not so much 'nit picking' as trying to adjust settings to optimise performance.


I think I understand what the objective of the discussion is. But it points out, yet again, how very little I understand about video, and in this case in particular, about how to use the Lumagen. Which I why I commented about being glad that I am having someone else do the work. 

And in many ways, I am quite pleased that I don't really understand. In the audio side, I can't seem to just pick a target curve and adjust some of the Optimizer parameters and be done with it. There ALWAYS sits in the back of my mind, "I wonder what it would sound like if I .........". If I had that knowledge and capability in video (as well as audio), I would never end up actually watching movies. I'd spend all of my time diddling and tweaking. Part of the curse of the hobby (and my own "curious" personality).


----------



## giomania

loggeo said:


> This is more to validate the method we have been using so far and hopefully it helps with your questions. I never used just the default settings, so it will be interesting to recheck now. If only jvc would deliver my projector..
> *Lumagen has an adjustable MaxCLL crossover for static tone mapping.* It defaults at 2500 nits. Therefore you can have different settings (presets) for above and below crossover settings.
> Its preset consists of some sub settings to optimize static tone mapping (ratio, shape, transition, hdsaturation, gamma, black).
> While you set the display max light once (defaults at 500 nits but it is also adjustable), you can use the ratio sub setting to adjust max display light per preset.
> Ideally you optimize the 2 presets and then enable the dynamic tone mapping.
> At least this is what I have been doing with a temporary projector I have here.


If you are referring to the "Crossover Pt", It was posted at some point that this is disabled when Dynamic Tone Mapping is enabled, as it is only used for static tone mapping now. I don't know if that changed as soon as Dynamic Tone Mapping was implemented, or as they refined the algorithm.

Mark


----------



## dinamigym

A little off topic but for those that are GOT Fans/watchers any thoughts on the video/audio quality of last nights episode. For me...I thought it was awful streaming on ATV4k with HBOGO. Very unfortunate as I was really looking forward to it. As far a streaming seems to have come all I could think of is please give me the physical disk Blu-Ray version instead!


----------



## Mike_WI

dinamigym said:


> A little off topic but for those that are GOT Fans/watchers any thoughts on the video/audio quality of last nights episode. For me...I thought it was awful streaming on ATV4k with HBOGO. Very unfortunate as I was really looking forward to it. As far a streaming seems to have come all I could think of is please give me the physical disk Blu-Ray version instead!


I agree. There are multiple comments in the GOT thread on this and on other social media.
11 people were watching it with me -- they didn't complain -- but I thought it was terrible.
ATV4K with HBO NOW.
The BR and S1 4K UHD are great.
I remember the cable DVR'd episodes also were formatted oddly. Disappointing for such a big budget production.


----------



## mhafner

The latest firmware's DTM is so far stable and issue free for me. Good job!


----------



## SSnarski

mhafner said:


> The latest firmware's DTM is so far stable and issue free for me. Good job!





I downloaded the lastest and had no issues whatsoever, picture is impressive for sure, might try and go into the CMS settings and try to figure a little more out on that, i have the HDR set to 8 as someone suggested, but after reading the posts, it looks like i was supposed to leave that alone and increase some numbers in the cms instead.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 042119*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 042119*
Kept other improvements from 042019 but reverted back to older 18 Ghz input chip microcode as newer version had numerous connectivity issues with many sources. 
Working with chip vendor for improvements. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update---if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time.


----------



## giomania

Hello everyone, 

As some of you know, Jim Peterson from Lumagen® posted a webinar presentation he provided to dealers and calibrators in December, 2017. 

While that document contained a lot of useful information, I was struggling to process that along with the manual, so I combined excerpts from the webinar, the manual, tech tips, forum posts, and ChromaPure calibration information into an 88-page document to help me understand setup and calibration of the Radiance™ Pro, as well as to create a step-by-step guide to calibration.

This guide has become especially pertinent for me as we have been witnessing the birth and evolution of the Dynamic Tone Mapping. I had shared this directly with a few members, but decided to ask Jim's permission to post this more widely, and have uploaded to Google Drive, so you can download it if you wish.

Jim just asked that I caution that *this is not an official Lumagen® document; it is an aggregation of information* that I collected. 

I suspect *the section on tone mapping* may be of the most interest, since the development managed to get ahead of the manual, so if you want to take a peek, it *starts on page 69*. Note that to retain the proper formatting, you will need to download it as the original MS Word document, as it doesn't properly format when viewed.

If you all catch any errors, please let me know. Jim caught a few things after scanning it briefly before starting his vacation, but I am sure there is room for improvement. Any items highlighted in red are issues that I noticed, but have not yet addressed.

Mark

Here is the link to the document


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> *Beta 042119*
> 
> Kept other improvements from 042019 but reverted back to older 18 Ghz input chip microcode as newer version had numerous connectivity issues with many sources.
> 
> Working with chip vendor for improvements.
> 
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update---if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time.




Just to be sure do I need to remove the hdmi cable before i do the update ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

A7mad78 said:


> Just to be sure do I need to remove the hdmi cable before i do the update ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't. I have a USB from back to a front adapter on my MA rack plate for FW updates.


----------



## Wookii

Mike_WI said:


> I don't. I have a USB from back to a front adapter on my MA rack plate for FW updates.


I think he's referring to the recommendation previously in this thread, to remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code Mike.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code*



Wookii said:


> I think he's referring to the recommendation previously in this thread, to remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code Mike.


Ah. Thanks. I missed that.


----------



## A7mad78

Wookii said:


> I think he's referring to the recommendation previously in this thread, to remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code Mike.




Yes that what I mean so it’s batter in this update to remove it before i made the update or it’s save to keep them 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## A7mad78

A7mad78 said:


> Yes that what I mean so it’s batter in this update to remove it before i made the update or it’s save to keep them
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



any help pls I don’t want to lose my hdmi cable they brand new  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eventidal

A7mad78 said:


> any help pls I don’t want to lose my hdmi cable they brand new
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did not disconnect my HDMI cable and everything worked fine. It cannot hurt though to disconnect it prior upgrading


----------



## dinamigym

A7mad78 said:


> any help pls I don’t want to lose my hdmi cable they brand new
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




You won’t hurt your cable either way. I’ve updated my Lumagen countless times with cables attached. The preferred method just seems to be to disconnect cables from Lumagen prior to update and then reattach after.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## A7mad78

dinamigym said:


> You won’t hurt your cable either way. I’ve updated my Lumagen countless times with cables attached. The preferred method just seems to be to disconnect cables from Lumagen prior to update and then reattach after.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Thx I do this in regular updates but if thing about microcode chip change from old to new or vice versa i remove the hdmi cables from the pro but just to update the microcode that already use that’s my Q if needed or just install without remove same as change the microcode from old to new 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## giomania

A7mad78 said:


> Thx I do this in regular updates but if thing about microcode chip change from old to new or vice versa i remove the hdmi cables from the pro but just to update the microcode that already use that’s my Q if needed or just install without remove same as change the microcode from old to new
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I think that removing the HDMI cables was Jim’s recommendation, but why don’t they put that in the release notes?

For the record, I forgot to do this during the last update that included an HDMI microcode update and the unit did not self-destruct and say “No HDMI for you!”




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## A7mad78

giomania said:


> I think that removing the HDMI cables was Jim’s recommendation, but why don’t they put that in the release notes?
> 
> For the record, I forgot to do this during the last update that included an HDMI microcode update and the unit did not self-destruct and say “No HDMI for you!”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




Hahah I do it now without removing seem every thing good lazy to remove  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Maybe a useful tip for Lightspace users, maybe just showing my ignorance  ; I've been successfully using the SDRP3 method with a 2.4 P3 D65 LUT in my Lumagen Pro for some time (works great) but always struggled to get a correct validation out of LS after then actually using that LUT and conversion in the Radiance. I could validate fine using manual patches and HCFR, but I never managed to get the right combination of settings in LS to:
a) make the patches line up with the targets and
b) avoid measuring a load of 2020 patches which we know are going to be way out of achievable gamut for most of us (and not useful either).

I finally figured out what combination of settings are required in the LS windows. In particular the "sub colourspace" feature is a relatively recent addition I believe.

Basically you set the validation to be against ST2084 P3 D65 targets, but the patch generation to be ST2084 P3 D65 as a sub colourspace of ST2084 2020. Note that although you created your LUT using SDR P3 D65 w/ 2.4 gamma, once in HDR mode the patches have to be generated for ST2084.

It's a shame that the built in QP sets don't have more saturation points and a dimmer set though, 75% is still very bright for ST2084 for most folk doing projection.


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> As some of you know, Jim Peterson from Lumagen® posted a webinar presentation he provided to dealers and calibrators in December, 2017.
> 
> While that document contained a lot of useful information, I was struggling to process that along with the manual, so I combined excerpts from the webinar, the manual, tech tips, forum posts, and ChromaPure calibration information into an 88-page document to help me understand setup and calibration of the Radiance™ Pro, as well as to create a step-by-step guide to calibration.
> 
> This guide has become especially pertinent for me as we have been witnessing the birth and evolution of the Dynamic Tone Mapping. I had shared this directly with a few members, but decided to ask Jim's permission to post this more widely, and have uploaded to Google Drive, so you can download it if you wish.
> 
> Jim just asked that I caution that *this is not an official Lumagen® document; it is an aggregation of information* that I collected.
> 
> I suspect *the section on tone mapping* may be of the most interest, since the development managed to get ahead of the manual, so if you want to take a peek, it *starts on page 69*. Note that to retain the proper formatting, you will need to download it as the original MS Word document, as it doesn't properly format when viewed.
> 
> If you all catch any errors, please let me know. Jim caught a few things after scanning it briefly before starting his vacation, but I am sure there is room for improvement. Any items highlighted in red are issues that I noticed, but have not yet addressed.
> 
> Mark
> 
> Here is the link to the document


Brilliant work on collecting this all in one place, much appreciated!


----------



## Mike_WI

*HDMI unplugging when FW updating?*



dinamigym said:


> You won’t hurt your cable either way. I’ve updated my Lumagen countless times with cables attached. The preferred method just seems to be to disconnect cables from Lumagen prior to update and then reattach after.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





A7mad78 said:


> Thx I do this in regular updates but if thing about microcode chip change from old to new or vice versa i remove the hdmi cables from the pro but just to update the microcode that already use that’s my Q if needed or just install without remove same as change the microcode from old to new
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





giomania said:


> I think that removing the HDMI cables was Jim’s recommendation, but why don’t they put that in the release notes?
> 
> For the record, I forgot to do this during the last update that included an HDMI microcode update and the unit did not self-destruct and say “No HDMI for you!”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





A7mad78 said:


> Hahah I do it now without removing seem every thing good lazy to remove
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think I have removed my HDMI cables when updating.
Maybe back on "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode, but not since.
My equipment is in a Middle Atlantic rack with difficult access to the rear of the units.
(one of many things I would do differently if building a new home theater)


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> I don't think I have removed my HDMI cables when updating.
> Maybe back on "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode, but not since.
> My equipment is in a Middle Atlantic rack with difficult access to the rear of the units.
> (one of many things I would do differently if building a new home theater)


I don't disconnect, but I find quite often my ATV4K needs a reboot after a Radiance update. It will be left in an odd state either with no video or with working video but HDCP issues.


----------



## Craig Peer

" Beta 042119
if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time. " 

I had the weird colors on start up with the previous firmware, but this firmware update a day later fixed it ! Thanks for such quick updates !!


----------



## Eventidal

Craig Peer said:


> " Beta 042119
> if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time. "
> 
> I had the weird colors on start up with the previous firmware, but this firmware update a day later fixed it ! Thanks for such quick updates !!


That was more of a bugfix rather than an update 

The HDMI update was simply removed!


----------



## ShadeRF

I'm on the struggle bus with my Roku Ultra -> Marantz SR6011 -> Lumagen -> RS3000 and the Netflix app. I'm outputting 4096x2160 with the Lumagen for use with my Paladin DCR. The Roku is set to output auto (i've also tried 4k hdr 60 but it always defaults back to auto). When going into the Netflix app it continually blacks out as it seems to be constantly changing between 60 and 24. Here's a video of what's happening. 



 Any ideas on how to fix?


----------



## Craig Peer

Eventidal said:


> That was more of a bugfix rather than an update
> 
> The HDMI update was simply removed!


Then let me re-state that - the quick bug fixes and frequent DTM improvements are appreciated !!


----------



## dinamigym

ShadeRF said:


> I'm on the struggle bus with my Roku Ultra -> Marantz SR6011 -> Lumagen -> RS3000 and the Netflix app. I'm outputting 4096x2160 with the Lumagen for use with my Paladin DCR. The Roku is set to output auto (i've also tried 4k hdr 60 but it always defaults back to auto). When going into the Netflix app it continually blacks out as it seems to be constantly changing between 60 and 24. Here's a video of what's happening. https://youtu.be/BtFKg9NnUu4 Any ideas on how to fix?




I had a similar issue with Netflix. Mine had to do with the rate match setting in the Lumagen. Have you tried toggling rate match on/off to see if that’s causing?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

ShadeRF said:


> I'm on the struggle bus with my Roku Ultra -> Marantz SR6011 -> Lumagen -> RS3000 and the Netflix app. I'm outputting 4096x2160 with the Lumagen for use with my Paladin DCR. The Roku is set to output auto (i've also tried 4k hdr 60 but it always defaults back to auto). When going into the Netflix app it continually blacks out as it seems to be constantly changing between 60 and 24. Here's a video of what's happening. https://youtu.be/BtFKg9NnUu4 Any ideas on how to fix?


It's just a poor player implementation in the Roku I think.
Netflix on the Roku and Sony UBP-X800 support framerate switching, but in their infinite wisdom they also framerate switch for each of the little trailer clips on their menus. The menus are 60p and the trailers more often than not are 24p.
AppleTV is the only rate switching player I'm aware of that doesn't switch rates for the trailers - so the trailers always play at whatever the UI is. The ATV4k has so many other issues though that I'd hesitate to recommend it unless you want to lose hair.

I think the only options to maintain sanity is to either disable frame rate matching in the Roku, or put the Radiance into a mode that converts everything to the same framerate for that device. You could set it so everything got played at 60p and then have another memory that you could switch to after actually playing something that then switched back to the right frame rates for the content.


----------



## ShadeRF

dinamigym said:


> I had a similar issue with Netflix. Mine had to do with the rate match setting in the Lumagen. Have you tried toggling rate match on/off to see if that’s causing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Toggled it off and it had no effect!


----------



## audioguy

My Lumagen shows up tomorrow and on Friday Craig Rounds (remotely) will show me how to enable DTM and hopefully Non Linear Stretch until such time as he can get here and do the full calibration. Given I have never experienced DTM, I am very hopeful it will be as impressive as most say - and worth what this hardware/calibration will have cost.


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> My Lumagen shows up tomorrow and on Friday Craig Rounds (remotely) will show me how to enable DTM and hopefully Non Linear Stretch until such time as he can get here and do the full calibration. Given I have never experienced DTM, I am very hopeful it will be as impressive as most say - and worth what this hardware/calibration will have cost.




It’s too important to get full calibration on site and then he can do modification remotely for ur file if needed but as u plan to get it ur in save hand for sure .. enjoy ur new projector  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

ShadeRF said:


> Toggled it off and it had no effect!


As above, the only things that will fix that are either disabling frame rate matching on the Roku, or setting the Lumagen to output the same refresh rate for all input rates (ie rate convert). Or using a different player. The behaviour of the Roku is, it seems, by their own design. If you connect it direct to the projector you'll see the same I believe.


----------



## A7mad78

I figure that message from K-scape for the audio and the audio setup is just pass through my trinnov 










any help why it doesn’t show that my trinnov not support 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

A7mad78 said:


> It’s too important to get full calibration on site and then he can do modification remotely for ur file if needed but as u plan to get it ur in save hand for sure .. enjoy ur new projector


Thanks. Actually the projector is no longer new but the Lumagen will be.


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> Thanks. Actually the projector is no longer new but the Lumagen will be.




Hahah just a say that ur pic after lumagen will be as u have a new projector 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

ShadeRF said:


> I'm on the struggle bus with my Roku Ultra -> Marantz SR6011 -> Lumagen -> RS3000 and the Netflix app.


As @bobof mentioned, switching the Roku (see here) should fix it. However, if you can you could temporarily try moving the Lumagen before the Marantz to see if that's better. My system is Roku Ultra -> Lumagen -> Anthem -> JVC RS3000. The switching on the RS3000 is a lot faster than the RS600 before, that I set the Roku back to switching frame rates as needed.

On a side note, I see Netflix now support Atmos for Roku but only Roku TV devices. Grrrr. Atmos works fine for Vudu and Amazon, so I was hoping the new enhanced bitrate would bring us Atmos. At least the 5.1 stream will be the better.


----------



## ShadeRF

dlinsley said:


> As @bobof mentioned, switching the Roku (see here) should fix it. However, if you can you could temporarily try moving the Lumagen before the Marantz to see if that's better. My system is Roku Ultra -> Lumagen -> Anthem -> JVC RS3000. The switching on the RS3000 is a lot faster than the RS600 before, that I set the Roku back to switching frame rates as needed.
> 
> On a side note, I see Netflix now support Atmos for Roku but only Roku TV devices. Grrrr. Atmos works fine for Vudu and Amazon, so I was hoping the new enhanced bitrate would bring us Atmos. At least the 5.1 stream will be the better.


I have the 4240 so this isn't really an option for me. I guess I'm just going to have to look into a different player, and as you've mentioned preferably one that supports Atmos. I've been a little peeved that the app on the Roku never received an update to do Atmos when Atmos is perfectly fine in other apps.


----------



## A7mad78

A7mad78 said:


> I figure that message from K-scape for the audio and the audio setup is just pass through my trinnov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> any help why it doesn’t show that my trinnov not support
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




When I press menu 0943 it act batter for DTS X but still get both atmos and dts the same message 











Before i hit the menu 0943 dts x show as dts only but now show dts x but still get same the message in the pic below for both format 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dinamigym

A7mad78 said:


> When I press menu 0943 it act batter for DTS X but still get both atmos and dts the same message
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before i hit the menu 0943 dts x show as dts only but now show dts x but still get same the message in the pic below for both format
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Lumagen should not degrade the video or audio capabilities of your Kaleidescape in any way. All should pass at 100% (Blue) efficiency on the Strato HDMI status page. If they don't then something else in the chain is causing the problem.


----------



## A7mad78

dinamigym said:


> The Lumagen should not degrade the video or audio capabilities of your Kaleidescape in any way. All should pass at 100% (Blue) efficiency on the Strato HDMI status page. If they don't then something else in the chain is causing the problem.




I send a mail to lumagen support and I include the CEA audio data block I get it from K so hope they will help to resolve the matter 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

A7mad78 said:


> I send a mail to lumagen support and I include the CEA audio data block I get it from K so hope they will help to resolve the matter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Jim’s new Lumagen theater has a Strato and Trinnov, so they should be able to help.... SJ


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Keep in mind for the Trinnov SSP that only one of the two HDMI outs is HDMI 2.0, the other is HDMI 1.4; and if you haven't already if you want any of the HDMI ins to handle HDMI 2.0, then you need to go into the SSP's menu and set the HDMI inputs to HDMI 2.0. If you can't figure out how to do it contact [email protected] and they will log into your SSP and do it for you.

Of course if all your video sources go direct to the Radiance Pro, then audio out to the Trinnov SSP, then you don't need to worry about this.


----------



## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> Jim’s new Lumagen theater has a Strato and Trinnov, so they should be able to help.... SJ




I got back from jim but I was little disappointed he was think when I send the pic of what show in K web interface that my player not a strato so his advice can’t be to reduce the EDID to 1080 in the pro and actually I got a strato and pic from 4k hdr source 

I send another email with a video from the new K web interface to proof that’s strato and I explain that’s new web from K and all my setup is 4k 

I hope I get back from them with a solution soon 

In trinnov it show that's atoms or dtsx and the problem only can’t recognize object base sound high channel in lumagen and thx to j.Green who provide for me the report and I send it to lumagen support 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Keep in mind for the Trinnov SSP that only one of the two HDMI outs is HDMI 2.0, the other is HDMI 1.4; and if you haven't already if you want any of the HDMI ins to handle HDMI 2.0, then you need to go into the SSP's menu and set the HDMI inputs to HDMI 2.0. If you can't figure out how to do it contact [email protected] and they will log into your SSP and do it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course if all your video sources go direct to the Radiance Pro, then audio out to the Trinnov SSP, then you don't need to worry about this.




Yes I just use input for audio from trinnov and out1 from lumagen 

Thx 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Just got my Lumagen installed and some VERY BASIC settings changed in the Lumagen and the RS4500 (from direction by Craig Rounds via phone) including enabling DTR. He should be here near the end of this month or the beginning of next to do the full calibration. But even at first glance (freezing some frames of interest) it is easy to see what DTR is doing. In many cases, the image appears "brighter" and in some, it appears less bright. I am most anxious to see what it looks like when everything is fine tuned.

I have to be able to disable up-converting 1080P to 4K in my Nvidia Shield/Plex platform to see how the Lumagen does in un-converting.


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> Just got my Lumagen installed and some VERY BASIC settings changed in the Lumagen and the RS4500 (from direction by Craig Rounds via phone) including enabling DTR. He should be here near the end of this month or the beginning of next to do the full calibration. But even at first glance (freezing some frames of interest) it is easy to see what DTR is doing. In many cases, the image appears "brighter" and in some, it appears less bright. I am most anxious to see what it looks like when everything is fine tuned.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to be able to disable up-converting 1080P to 4K in my Nvidia Shield/Plex platform to see how the Lumagen does in un-converting.




Congrats enjoy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Can the Lumagen convert SDR to HDR? And if so, how well does it do so?

And while I am asking questions, when I switch between the Lumagen inputs, the chance of me getting audio and video is close to zero percent. I have to bounce around from input to input and various other activies to eventually get it to sync. This did not occur when I plugged my sources into my processor. And I paid extra to get all inputs and outputs utilizing the 18GHz cards. The HDMI cables I am using (*THESE*) are those recommended by Kris Deering and Craig Rounds. My previous experience with MonoPrice cables was awful, but given the recommendation, I bought the MonoPrice. I had previously ordered about 15 XLR audio cables and more than 50% were bad - and the few in my system continue to fail. Prior to adding the Lumagen, I was using BlueJeans Belden Series-FE HDMI Cable. 

I have not checked the status of the firmware but given it was shipped last Monday, I assume it was the latest. I will check later today. 

I'm sure this is not typical performance, because as it stands right now, it is an unusable product.


----------



## *Harry*

audioguy said:


> when I switch between the Lumagen inputs, the chance of me getting audio and video is close to zero percent. I have to bounce around from input to input and various other activies to eventually get it to sync.


If your source is set at 1080p, you could try to set the input at *HDMI 1.x*:
*MENU → Input → Options → HDMI Setup → HDCP*

Alternatively, you can do this with the direct command *MENU 0819* ( = set all inputs/menories to report HDCP 1.x back to sources)

If it works, don't forget to save the new configuration.



audioguy said:


> I was using BlueJeans Belden Series-FE HDMI Cable.


Gordon has recommended these cables to me also; so I got two of them in 6 feet / 1,8 meters and can not complain about ... at least 1080p24/50/60 should work without problems.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Can the Lumagen convert SDR to HDR? And if so, how well does it do so?
> 
> And while I am asking questions, when I switch between the Lumagen inputs, the chance of me getting audio and video is close to zero percent. I have to bounce around from input to input and various other activies to eventually get it to sync. This did not occur when I plugged my sources into my processor. And I paid extra to get all inputs and outputs utilizing the 18GHz cards. The HDMI cables I am using (*THESE*) are those recommended by Kris Deering and Craig Rounds. My previous experience with MonoPrice cables was awful, but given the recommendation, I bought the MonoPrice. I had previously ordered about 15 XLR audio cables and more than 50% were bad - and the few in my system continue to fail. Prior to adding the Lumagen, I was using BlueJeans Belden Series-FE HDMI Cable.
> 
> I have not checked the status of the firmware but given it was shipped last Monday, I assume it was the latest. I will check later today.
> 
> I'm sure this is not typical performance, because as it stands right now, it is an unusable product.


Is the link the exact variant you are using (3ft?). Apparently the 3ft cables are not favoured, too short. I have a combination of the Belden FE and Monoprice cables; I think they're of similar quality.
Maybe you can describe a bit more how everything in your system is connected. Pretty much every time I've had HDMI IO issues with my own Radiance it is at the output side that is problematic.

There was a recent firmware update which introduced a new video input board firmware, that version seems to be a little worse behaved than the previous version and has been backed out. That is version 042019. Versions either side of that don't have the issue.

Additionally, there are two different HDMI output firmware versions which behave differently on different kit.



> . Added direct commands to select either default 18Ghz output firmware or newer firmware from manufacturer. Press "menu 0851" to switch to newer 18Ghz output firmware or "menu 0850" to switch to original firmware. The Pro will automatically reboot (no save is necessary) and then take a minute to complete the change . All Pro's are currently using the original firmware and if you don't have 18Ghz outputs or are having no issues then there is no need to perform these commands. If you have an issue that you feel may be hdmi related between an 18Ghz output of the Pro and a display or are just curious then please try the newer firmware with "menu 0851" and we appreciate any feedback you have on it. You can go back to the original firmware with "menu 0850" if necessary. You can check which you are using to verify by pressing "menu 0536" and at the end of the last line there is a ",1" or ",0" which designates the new or original 18Ghz output firmware respectively.


----------



## audioguy

Another question:

I'm trying to update the firmware version. Is it possible on a Mac or must I run it using Parallels/Windows? If possible on a Mac, how does one do so?


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> Another question:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to update the firmware version. Is it possible on a Mac or must I run it using Parallels/Windows? If possible on a Mac, how does one do so?




Parallels/ windows 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lockdown571

This has probably been answered at some point, but is anyone using the dynamic tone mapping function with an Nvidia Shield and confirmed that the Shield is sending maxfall/maxcll info? It's supposed to to with the Shield 7.2 update. And I'm assuming it should work regardless of what app you use (Plex, Kodi, MrMC, Emby, etc.)?


----------



## bobof

lockdown571 said:


> This has probably been answered at some point, but is anyone using the dynamic tone mapping function with an Nvidia Shield and confirmed that the Shield is sending maxfall/maxcll info? It's supposed to to with the Shield 7.2 update. And I'm assuming it should work regardless of what app you use (Plex, Kodi, MrMC, Emby, etc.)?


Just press OK a couple of times on the remote of the Lumagen, the received MaxCLL will be displayed.


----------



## lockdown571

bobof said:


> Just press OK a couple of times on the remote of the Lumagen, the received MaxCLL will be displayed.


Thanks, but I don't own a Lumagen (yet). Was curious if anyone was using it with their Shield.


----------



## bobof

lockdown571 said:


> Thanks, but I don't own a Lumagen (yet). Was curious if anyone was using it with their Shield.


Ah ok, sorry I don't use one myself.
For what it is worth, with DTM it's not as important as it once was, DTM set to 8 only uses a bit of the HDMI transmitted HDR metadata, mostly it comes from the content itself.


----------



## jamesmil

lockdown571 said:


> This has probably been answered at some point, but is anyone using the dynamic tone mapping function with an Nvidia Shield and confirmed that the Shield is sending maxfall/maxcll info? It's supposed to to with the Shield 7.2 update. And I'm assuming it should work regardless of what app you use (Plex, Kodi, MrMC, Emby, etc.)?




Yes it does (Shield TV v7.23). EDIT: The screenshot is from Plex, but I tested with Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Vudu as well (I wasn't able to get Google Movies & TV or Kodi to kick into HDR mode).


----------



## darksets

audioguy said:


> Another question:
> 
> I'm trying to update the firmware version. Is it possible on a Mac or must I run it using Parallels/Windows? If possible on a Mac, how does one do so?


This is my biggest complaint about Lumagen. Basically anything other than Windows entails a risk. These days people upgrade software through wi-fi, usb sticks etc. and should be OS agnostic. Lumagen instead of working on lame features like sharpness enhancements and PIP, should bring their software upgrades up to 21st century standards. Regarding your video+audio sync issues you should get advice from Lumagen support. Whatever cables various people suggest, it's all anecdotal evidence. With proper cables and setup you should have no issues.


----------



## lockdown571

jamesmil said:


> Yes it does (Shield TV v7.23). EDIT: The screenshot is from Plex, but I tested with Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Vudu as well (I wasn't able to get Google Movies & TV or Kodi to kick into HDR mode).


Thank you, exactly what I was looking for! Just as an FYI, to get Kodi to switch to HDR, you need to enable mediacodec (surface) in the kodi settings. Cheers.


----------



## Roland Janus

lockdown571 said:


> Thank you, exactly what I was looking for! Just as an FYI, to get Kodi to switch to HDR, you need to enable mediacodec (surface) in the kodi settings. Cheers.


and if you want the Shield to autoswitch between 709/2020 there is a developer option to do that (working very well).

-Roland


----------



## audioguy

Roland Janus said:


> and if you want the Shield to autoswitch between 709/2020 there is a developer option to do that (working very well).
> 
> -Roland


Speaking about the Shield, do you know of a way to have the Shield/Plex combination NOT up convert 1080P to 4K (I want the Lumagen to do that)? I have tried two other Shield apps (Kodi and MrMC) that will pass 1080P but the UI of those are too clunky for my use.


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> Is the link the exact variant you are using (3ft?). Apparently the 3ft cables are not favoured, too short. I have a combination of the Belden FE and Monoprice cables; I think they're of similar quality.
> Maybe you can describe a bit more how everything in your system is connected. Pretty much every time I've had HDMI IO issues with my own Radiance it is at the output side that is problematic.
> 
> There was a recent firmware update which introduced a new video input board firmware, that version seems to be a little worse behaved than the previous version and has been backed out. That is version 042019. Versions either side of that don't have the issue.
> 
> Additionally, there are two different HDMI output firmware versions which behave differently on different kit.


A couple of comments. As it turns out, even though my Lumagen was shipped last Monday, it was several firmware updates behind, some of which had to do with HDMI issues. (And I have yet to get the firmware update process to work). Secondly, when I got on the phone with Craig and was going to walk through the issue with him, the Lumagen switching worked perfectly (?) and lastly, all of my Monoprice (and the Blue Jeans) cables in use are >6 feet. This was recommended to me but why longer is better is way beyond me.

I'm comfortable that eventually at least this part of my Lumagen integration will get better,


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> This is my biggest complaint about Lumagen. Basically anything other than Windows entails a risk. These days people upgrade software through wi-fi, usb sticks etc. and should be OS agnostic. Lumagen instead of working on lame features like sharpness enhancements and PIP, should bring their software upgrades up to 21st century standards. Regarding your video+audio sync issues you should get advice from Lumagen support. Whatever cables various people suggest, it's all anecdotal evidence. With proper cables and setup you should have no issues.


I don't see it as that much of a limitation as every single piece of calibration software you could use to set these things up is also Windows only, and the best you could hope for on these existing products would be a Mac cabled uploaded (as there isn't a USB host to connect a USB drive or WiFi adapter) . I'm mostly a Mac user, except for when I have to use a PC, and unfortunately most niche products support PC first (and maybe will never support Mac). 


Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> A couple of comments. As it turns out, even though my Lumagen was shipped last Monday, it was several firmware updates behind, some of which had to do with HDMI issues. (And I have yet to get the firmware update process to work). Secondly, when I got on the phone with Craig and was going to walk through the issue with him, the Lumagen switching worked perfectly (?) and lastly, all of my Monoprice (and the Blue Jeans) cables in use are >6 feet. This was recommended to me but why longer is better is way beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm comfortable that eventually at least this part of my Lumagen integration will get better,




I have all Blue Jeans Cables Belden Series F and FE; many shorter than 6 feet. 

The only HDMI issues I have is with my 50-foot RuiPro Hybrid Fiber.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## lockdown571

audioguy said:


> Speaking about the Shield, do you know of a way to have the Shield/Plex combination NOT up convert 1080P to 4K (I want the Lumagen to do that)? I have tried two other Shield apps (Kodi and MrMC) that will pass 1080P but the UI of those are too clunky for my use.


Unfortunately, no. The official Plex app doesn't support resolution switching. I've been begging for this feature for a while. Have to use Kodi/MrMC or Emby in the meantime. Too bad the Emby interface is really ugly.


----------



## Roland Janus

lockdown571 said:


> Unfortunately, no. The official Plex app doesn't support resolution switching. I've been begging for this feature for a while. Have to use Kodi/MrMC or Emby in the meantime. Too bad the Emby interface is really ugly.


OT on:
Never bothered with Plex, always used Kodi any yes getting Kodi to do exactly what I want is a pita...
But using the right skin and config it does look very nice and works (most of the time)

OT off.


----------



## audioguy

lockdown571 said:


> Unfortunately, no. The official Plex app doesn't support resolution switching. I've been begging for this feature for a while. Have to use Kodi/MrMC or Emby in the meantime. Too bad the Emby interface is really ugly.


Other than Plex, I dislike the UI of Kodi, MrMC and Emby. I switched from a Dune to improve the interface and Plex/Nvidia did it - except it won't allow pass through of 1080P video resolutions.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> A couple of comments. As it turns out, even though my Lumagen was shipped last Monday, it was several firmware updates behind, some of which had to do with HDMI issues. (And I have yet to get the firmware update process to work). Secondly, when I got on the phone with Craig and was going to walk through the issue with him, the Lumagen switching worked perfectly (?) and lastly, all of my Monoprice (and the Blue Jeans) cables in use are >6 feet. This was recommended to me but why longer is better is way beyond me.
> 
> I'm comfortable that eventually at least this part of my Lumagen integration will get better,


Audioguy:

Your unit shipped with the latest release that was available on the day it was shipped. The newer releases came after shipment. When Craig comes to calibrate, he can update the unit if you are not able to do so before then.

Unfortunately, while the new 18 GHz input chip microcode provided by the chip vendor that was used in the release your unit shipped (which had a work-around for the AppleTV4K's "changing Static Metadata every 30 seconds when its not supposed to" bug), created new issues. We had to revert to the original 18 GHz input chip microcode. So once you are able to update your firmware to the latest release you should have improved switching. 

As I mentioned the Lumagen Demo Theater uses mostly the same equipment you have (we have an Oppo 203, Strato, DirecTV Genie, Roku, Radiance Pro, Trinnov Altitude16, and RS4500), and I have no issues switching at all. We use Tributaries UHDP for 2 to 3 meter passive HDMI, and Tributaries UHDT "Titan" for the 15 meter run to the RS4500 (RUIPRO fiber was also tested and works without issue). We find that better HDMI cabling is almost always the way to fix issues.

Note: For the Altitude 4k capable switch board you need to use input 5, 6, or 7, as they work better than inputs 1 to 4. You probably know this already, but I thought I would mention it for others.

Contact support at Lumagen (503-574-2211 Option 2) if you want to work through issues. Randy is covering for me while I am on vacation. If you don't get things sorted with Randy he can give you my cell number and you can call me.


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> Audioguy:
> 
> Your unit shipped with the latest release that was available on the day it was shipped. The newer releases came after shipment. When Craig comes to calibrate, he can update the unit if you are not able to do so before then.
> 
> Unfortunately, while the new 18 GHz input chip microcode provided by the chip vendor that was used in the release your unit shipped (which had a work-around for the AppleTV4K's "changing Static Metadata every 30 seconds when its not supposed to" bug), created new issues. We had to revert to the original 18 GHz input chip microcode. So once you are able to update your firmware to the latest release you should have improved switching.
> 
> As I mentioned the Lumagen Demo Theater uses mostly the same equipment you have (we have an Oppo 203, Strato, DirecTV Genie, Roku, Radiance Pro, Trinnov Altitude16, and RS4500), and I have no issues switching at all. We use Tributaries UHDP for 2 to 3 meter passive HDMI, and Tributaries UHDT "Titan" for the 15 meter run to the RS4500 (RUIPRO fiber was also tested and works without issue). We find that better HDMI cabling is almost always the way to fix issues.
> 
> Note: For the Altitude 4k capable switch board you need to use input 5, 6, or 7, as they work better than inputs 1 to 4. You probably know this already, but I thought I would mention it for others.
> 
> Contact support at Lumagen (503-574-2211 Option 2) if you want to work through issues. Randy is covering for me while I am on vacation. If you don't get things sorted with Randy he can give you my cell number and you can call me.


Thanks for your response. I suspect the switching issue is related to the comment you made above, which should be addressed with the update. As it turns out, when Craig and I were on the phone together to discuss my switching issue, it worked flawlessly - sort of like when you take your car for service and the "squeak" you were complaining about doesn't show up. The cables I am using (that I just purchased) were recommended by Kris and Craig gave his nod as well so I don't think that is the issue. I already had a RUIPRO HDMI Fiber Cable running to the projector and everyone seems to think that is more than satisfactory and has not proven to have any issues in the 7 months or so I have owned it.

I will call Randy tomorrow to see if he can help me untangle my inability to get my computer (Windows running on my Mac) to see the Lumagen. Once that occurs, I will be off to the races - and reach the finish once Craig gets here. Craig wailed me through getting DTM operational and I was able to enable and disable DTM while watching some 4K material. Very cool and I'm sure once I get this most recent update and once Craig gets here, it will be even more impressive. Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph - one heck of a combination !!!


----------



## nbynw

audioguy said:


> Thanks for your response. I suspect the switching issue is related to the comment you made above, which should be addressed with the update. As it turns out, when Craig and I were on the phone together to discuss my switching issue, it worked flawlessly - sort of like when you take your car for service and the "squeak" you were complaining about doesn't show up. The cables I am using (that I just purchased) were recommended by Kris and Craig gave his nod as well so I don't think that is the issue. I already had a RUIPRO HDMI Fiber Cable running to the projector and everyone seems to think that is more than satisfactory and has not proven to have any issues in the 7 months or so I have owned it.
> 
> I will call Randy tomorrow to see if he can help me untangle my inability to get my computer (Windows running on my Mac) to see the Lumagen. Once that occurs, I will be off to the races - and reach the finish once Craig gets here. Craig wailed me through getting DTM operational and I was able to enable and disable DTM while watching some 4K material. Very cool and I'm sure once I get this most recent update and once Craig gets here, it will be even more impressive. Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph - one heck of a combination !!!


i updated flawlessly with my 2018 macbook pro updated to mojave and running parallels/windows10. you need to ensure the correct port is selected and you can identify this by clicking the apple>about this mac>system report and looking under hardware to see what port your usb is connected to. 

also, i updated my lumagen after i disconnected all my input and output hdmi cables. the only cable connected to the lumagen was the usb provided to do the updates. disconnect the cables prior to turning on the lumagen. 

it takes about 10 minutes depending on your internet connection

and this is the kind of support i have come to expect from jim...he is very generous with his time even when he is on holiday


----------



## audioguy

nbynw said:


> i updated flawlessly with my 2018 macbook pro updated to mojave and running parallels/windows10. you need to ensure the correct port is selected and you can identify this by clicking the apple>about this mac>system report and looking under hardware to see what port your usb is connected to.
> 
> also, i updated my lumagen after i disconnected all my input and output hdmi cables. the only cable connected to the lumagen was the usb provided to do the updates. disconnect the cables prior to turning on the lumagen.
> 
> it takes about 10 minutes depending on your internet connection
> 
> and this is the kind of support i have come to expect from jim...he is very generous with his time even when he is on holiday


Thanks. I had previously found the port doing what you described but did not disconnect all cables and re-start. I will try that later. Thanks.


----------



## SSnarski

audioguy said:


> Thanks. I had previously found the port doing what you described but did not disconnect all cables and re-start. I will try that later. Thanks.





Audioguy, i am fairly new to the lumagen as well, i had to load the full software update in lieu of just the latest updates on mine when i received it, mine was missing a few of the updates as well, but they have been coming out rather quickly as of late, as the latest updates that i had to do on mine would not take by themselves, it took a few more minutes of time but it worked fine, the second time i updated it with just the latest update and that worked just fine, i did not disconnect any of the hdmi feeds on mine, but may do so from now on, i was unaware of that until reading the posts.


----------



## audioguy

SSnarski said:


> Audioguy, i am fairly new to the lumagen as well, i had to load the full software update in lieu of just the latest updates on mine when i received it, mine was missing a few of the updates as well, but they have been coming out rather quickly as of late, as the latest updates that i had to do on mine would not take by themselves, it took a few more minutes of time but it worked fine, the second time i updated it with just the latest update and that worked just fine, i did not disconnect any of the hdmi feeds on mine, but may do so from now on, i was unaware of that until reading the posts.


Are you using a Mac or a PC?


----------



## SSnarski

audioguy said:


> Are you using a Mac or a PC?


PC - laptop


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> ... I will call Randy tomorrow to see if he can help me untangle my inability to get my computer (Windows running on my Mac) to see the Lumagen. Once that occurs, I will be off to the races - and reach the finish once Craig gets here. Craig wailed me through getting DTM operational and I was able to enable and disable DTM while watching some 4K material. Very cool and I'm sure once I get this most recent update and once Craig gets here, it will be even more impressive. Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph - one heck of a combination !!!


The following may not provide any new information, but as a reference for everyone:

I have not used a MAC running Windows emulation to update a Radiance, but from what I have been told if you assign a specific USB port to Windows from within MAC OS you should then be able to do the update from within the Windows emulator. You plug the USB cable into the assigned USB port and to the Radiance Pro. Then you find the "COM" port in the Control Panel, under "Devices and Printers" (for Windows 10) as usual for a Pro update. Once you select the assigned COM port in the updater (must be port 16 or less), the updater should work.

Portable PCs should be plugged in to wall power for the update.

Note: Some Windows 10 systems (but not all) need a newer device driver than the one loaded in the Pro's internal USB-to-Serial adapter. New device drivers can be found at FTDIChip.com, under drivers and "VCP" (Virtual COM Port). Our updater is a 32-bit .exe, so you should download the 32-bit driver, even if you are running 64-bit Windows (at least this worked for me).


----------



## Dirk44

Hello Jim,

at first thank you for including the DTM from me also.
I have a very deeply 20" curved V6 screen 150" wide and really like the old 70 mm movies etc.

I know its a bit early for X was wishes, but can I ask you again: if its possible to include WARPING into the Pro ? sometimes ? 
Only a 4 Corner set up maybe / at least?

All the best from Germany dirk


----------



## jrp

Dirk44 said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> at first thank you for including the DTM from me also.
> I have a very deeply 20" curved V6 screen 150" wide and really like the old 70 mm movies etc.
> 
> I know its a bit early for X was wishes, but can I ask you again: if its possible to include WARPING into the Pro ? sometimes ?
> Only a 4 Corner set up maybe / at least?
> 
> All the best from Germany dirk


A full warping engine cannot be added to the Radiance Pro.

While there is a chance we could add a horizontal *only* warping, it is not on our to-do list. This would correct an "arc" on the left and right, but *not* top and bottom. Since pin-cushion, and barrel, distortion are, I believe, generally worse on the sides, this would add a mitigation for situations like the one you describe (although I have never heard of a 20" deep curve for a 150" screen. So maybe top/bottom distortion is a significant issue for you).

To be added to the to-do list we would need a number of people to request this feature be added. We would then need to investigate if the Vertical-Keystone-Correction logic could serve as a foundation for horizontal pin-cushion and barrel distortion correction (I believe this is likely true), and how much additional logic and time would be needed to implement it.

Never hurts to ask, and if we get more people requesting a horizontal barrel and pin-cushion feature we will consider adding it to the to-do list.


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> A full warping engine cannot be added to the Radiance Pro.
> 
> While there is a chance we could add a horizontal *only* warping, it is not on our to-do list. This would correct an "arc" on the left and right, but *not* top and bottom. Since pin-cushion, and barrel, distortion are, I believe, generally worse on the sides, this would add a mitigation for situations like the one you describe (although I have never heard of a 20" deep curve for a 150" screen. So maybe top/bottom distortion is a significant issue for you).
> 
> To be added to the to-do list we would need a number of people to request this feature be added. We would then need to investigate if the Vertical-Keystone-Correction logic could serve as a foundation for horizontal pin-cushion and barrel distortion correction (I believe this is likely true), and how much additional logic and time would be needed to implement it.
> 
> Never hurts to ask, and if we get more people requesting a horizontal barrel and pin-cushion feature we will consider adding it to the to-do list.


Add me to the list Jim! I think all Paladin DCR and ISCO would highly appreciate this feature!


----------



## Dirk44

Thank you Jim, I know the bow is a little gaga, but I really like it.
I have my VW 1100 together with a Isco 1.25 Lens placed nearly middle of screen and minimum throw, that combination gives me "only" a correction difference of 2,5" Bottom from the middle to both sides.
Its hard to explain.
I'm not a technical guy, just a Hometheater geek, how is happy to have an expert in Oliver Klohs in the near for calibration etc. 
Happy that the image is sharp in all corners for same reasons. 
Looking curios forward to hear if other Lumagen user looking for warping!


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> While there is a chance we could add a horizontal *only* warping, it is not on our to-do list. This would correct an "arc" on the left and right, but *not* top and bottom.





Eventidal said:


> Add me to the list Jim! I think all Paladin DCR and ISCO would highly appreciate this feature!


I was thinking of asking the other day if this was on the todo list. I'm at min throw for the DCR, and the curve is negligible for 16:9 content but a little more obvious in the full corners if you ever need to look at straight line detail there. Zooming those out a little larger (but of course clipping content) would be great to see if it worked well. I do have space to move my projector back about 10" with the mount, or maybe 16" if I move to a shelf, and long term will likely do that though. I'd love to build a shelf / hushbox solution to use high lamp as the lamp ages on my RS3000.


----------



## DenverMDM

Eventidal said:


> Add me to the list Jim! I think all Paladin DCR and ISCO would highly appreciate this feature!


Me as well! Pincushion adjustment would be much appreciated


----------



## cargen

DenverMDM said:


> Me as well! Pincushion adjustment would be much appreciated


*What is 'horizontal *only* warping' ???*

Please define.

Dumb as mud,

Chris


----------



## bobof

cargen said:


> *What is 'horizontal *only* warping' ???*
> 
> Please define.


Jim did, it means just adjusting the arc at the sides of the screen, not at the top and bottom:



jrp said:


> A full warping engine cannot be added to the Radiance Pro.
> 
> While there is a chance we could add a horizontal *only* warping, it is not on our to-do list. This would correct an "arc" on the left and right, but *not* top and bottom.


I'm guessing, but I believe the reason for horizontal being more feasible is that it is *relatively* easily done on a line by line basis to the image (the image is received in lines of pixels) . At its most basic you just compress each line slightly about the centre of the screen. Vertical warp (to correct top and bottom pincushion) is much more complicated as the pixels need to change across many lines; it can only effectively be done on complete frames as when you get to the bottom half of the frame you need to pull pixels forward from many lines "in the future".


----------



## audioguy

I am using Plex on a Nvidia Shield and I assume that since the Shield "sees" my 4K projector, it upscales all 1080P material to 4K - and as of this moment, there is no way to disable that function. I want the Lumagen to do the upscaling.

This may be a really silly question, but since the Lumagen sits between the projector and the Shield, is there a way for the Lumagen to make the Shield "think" it is looking at a 1080P display, and therefore, not upscale?


----------



## giomania

With the standard (non-Pro) Radiance models, the video EDID can be customized to report yes or no for all resolutions.

I don’t think this capability is on the Pro.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## cappy1

*Warping*

Jim:

Please add me to the list of those very interested in "Warping".


----------



## hellride

Please add me too!

Jim: 

*Warping + 1!*


----------



## scrowe

audioguy said:


> I am using Plex on a Nvidia Shield and I assume that since the Shield "sees" my 4K projector, it upscales all 1080P material to 4K - and as of this moment, there is no way to disable that function. I want the Lumagen to do the upscaling.
> 
> This may be a really silly question, but since the Lumagen sits between the projector and the Shield, is there a way for the Lumagen to make the Shield "think" it is looking at a 1080P display, and therefore, not upscale?


Yes, I have 2 seperate input memories fir a couple of devices like this.

Under Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p from Max. Hopefully this will make the Shield detect it can only send 1080p and stop it doing the upscaling. This works for my Panasonic UHD Player when playing Bluray versus UHD Discs.


----------



## audioguy

scrowe said:


> Yes, I have 2 seperate input memories fir a couple of devices like this.
> 
> Under Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p from Max. Hopefully this will make the Shield detect it can only send 1080p and stop it doing the upscaling. This works for my Panasonic UHD Player when playing Bluray versus UHD Discs.


Thanks.

But what occurs when the Nvidia is trying to play a real 4K/HDR movie?


----------



## giomania

He is saying to use two separate memories on the input.

One with the setting to limit to 1080p enabled (MEMA for example).

Another at the default setting so the Shield will send the full resolution (MEMB for example).

Mark




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

Got it. With no understanding of the architecture of the Lumagen, I did not understand. That will definitely solve the problem. Thanks.


----------



## Roland Janus

audioguy said:


> Speaking about the Shield, do you know of a way to have the Shield/Plex combination NOT up convert 1080P to 4K (I want the Lumagen to do that)? I have tried two other Shield apps (Kodi and MrMC) that will pass 1080P but the UI of those are too clunky for my use.


Never used it, but as mentioned already, I don't think Plex can do that.


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> Got it. With no understanding of the architecture of the Lumagen, I did not understand. That will definitely solve the problem. Thanks.




I can definitely be confusing. Check out the link in my signature for the link to a post about my “set up guide” which may help you out, because there are some tips in there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bferbrache

scrowe said:


> Yes, I have 2 seperate input memories fir a couple of devices like this.
> 
> Under Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p from Max. Hopefully this will make the Shield detect it can only send 1080p and stop it doing the upscaling. This works for my Panasonic UHD Player when playing Bluray versus UHD Discs.


I am interested in this but with a slightly different set of parameters, is it possible to set the Video Limit to 1080i? This could be very helpful when watching HD channels on my SKY and Virgin TV boxes in the UK. At the moment I have to manually select the output when watching 4K broadcasts and then back to 1080i broadcasts.

I couldn't see 1080i as an option in the Lumagen menu

Thanks

Brian


----------



## scrowe

bferbrache said:


> scrowe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have 2 seperate input memories fir a couple of devices like this.
> 
> Under Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p from Max. Hopefully this will make the Shield detect it can only send 1080p and stop it doing the upscaling. This works for my Panasonic UHD Player when playing Bluray versus UHD Discs.
> 
> 
> 
> I am interested in this but with a slightly different set of parameters, is it possible to set the Video Limit to 1080i? This could be very helpful when watching HD channels on my SKY and Virgin TV boxes in the UK. At the moment I have to manually select the output when watching 4K broadcasts and then back to 1080i broadcasts.
> 
> I couldn't see 1080i as an option in the Lumagen menu
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Brian
Click to expand...

No the only option is 1080p, you could email Lumagen support and request it, especially as 1080i is the native output from most Satellite/Cable delivery. 

I am assuming what you want to do is allow the Lumagen to do the deinterlacing to 1080p rather than let the satellite/cable box do it, which would be my preference. 

In my case with SkyQ in the UK, I find significant artifacts with manually setting the box to output 1080i, and letting Lumagen do the deinterlacing. It's either an inherent problem with the Lumagen on 50Hz source material, or a problem unique to my SkyQ video chain as I haven't seen anyone else report similar issues. I believe Lumagen are a bit stuck because without the ability to replicate it or provide them with access to the native video source, they are limited. Therefore I set my Sky box to 1080p and manually switch to UHD for 4K content, as it doesn't have an auto-resolution mode.


----------



## bferbrache

scrowe said:


> No the only option is 1080p, you could email Lumagen support and request it, especially as 1080i is the native output from most Satellite/Cable delivery.
> 
> I am assuming what you want to do is allow the Lumagen to do the deinterlacing to 1080p rather than let the satellite/cable box do it, which would be my preference.
> 
> In my case with SkyQ in the UK, I find significant artifacts with manually setting the box to output 1080i, and letting Lumagen do the deinterlacing. It's either an inherent problem with the Lumagen on 50Hz source material, or a problem unique to my SkyQ video chain as I haven't seen anyone else report similar issues. I believe Lumagen are a bit stuck because without the ability to replicate it or provide them with access to the native video source, they are limited. Therefore I set my Sky box to 1080p and manually switch to UHD for 4K content, as it doesn't have an auto-resolution mode.


Thank you very much for the reply - like you I set my Sky Q and Virgin V6 to 1080i for most viewing and manually switch to 2160p for 4K viewing.

If I can get the Lumagen to force these boxes to output 1080i for HD viewing by using different memories it will save a lot of time having to manually change the output resolution.

I will contact Lumagen as you suggest to see if this is possible

Thanks again

Brian


----------



## scrowe

bferbrache said:


> Thank you very much for the reply - like you I set my Sky Q and Virgin V6 to 1080i for most viewing and manually switch to 2160p for 4K viewing.
> 
> If I can get the Lumagen to force these boxes to output 1080i for HD viewing by using different memories it will save a lot of time having to manually change the output resolution.
> 
> I will contact Lumagen as you suggest to see if this is possible
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Brian


If you are watching SkyQ on 1080i native, and assuming you are outputting to display at 1080p or 2160p do you see artifacts? My main viewing is US drama via SkyQ, and what I see is background motion, which gets a comb/jaggy effect on slight movement. A common scenario is you will have a character mainly in the foreground, and a character in the background may make a movement, and you get the artifacts around the motion. I haven't looked at this any closer for about a year, but I didn't have this issue with the firmware before the deinterlacing improvements awhile back.


----------



## bferbrache

scrowe said:


> bferbrache said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for the reply - like you I set my Sky Q and Virgin V6 to 1080i for most viewing and manually switch to 2160p for 4K viewing.
> 
> If I can get the Lumagen to force these boxes to output 1080i for HD viewing by using different memories it will save a lot of time having to manually change the output resolution.
> 
> I will contact Lumagen as you suggest to see if this is possible
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> If you are watching SkyQ on 1080i native, and assuming you are outputting to display at 1080p or 2160p do you see artifacts? My main viewing is US drama via SkyQ, and what I see is background motion, which gets a comb/jaggy effect on slight movement. A common scenario is you will have a character mainly in the foreground, and a character in the background may make a movement, and you get the artifacts around the motion. I haven't looked at this any closer for about a year, but I didn't have this issue with the firmware before the deinterlacing improvements awhile back.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, I have not noticed the issue with the TV shows you mentioned but I will take a closer look later on and report back. 

I am currently outputting 1080i from the sky Q box and the lumagen is outputting 2160p to my Panasonic OLED.

I have tried the EDID limit on the Radiance to force the sky q box to output 1080p but the limit is ignored. Using the EDID to force the Virgin V6 box to output 1080p works well.

I have been in touch with Lumagen support and they don't seem to think that it is possible to force the sky Q to output 1080i or p with the EDID limit. 

I've asked if they can introduce EDID limit of 1080i as an option for the Virgin V6 box but not heard anything back yet

Thanks 

Brian


----------



## bobof

I could be wrong here, but I didn't think the de-interlacer in the Pro is anywhere near as comprehensive as was in non-pro units courtesy of the Gennum VXP chip. "Back in the day" there was a lot of work put into deinterlacing by specialist companies, trying to deal with all the special cases (like interlaced scrolling text over video with 3:2 pulldown, discerning the difference between interlaced video and interlaced film - film mode vs video mode detection, etc), and these days I don't think it gets as much attention.

If someone wants to compare how these things fare, probably the best source to use to try and form an objective opinion of the behaviour would be the demo / test discs from the then-competing HQV scaler / deinterlacer chips. I've got the PAL and NTSC versions somewhere around here, though I've lost interest in interlaced video these days.


----------



## scrowe

bferbrache said:


> scrowe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bferbrache said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for the reply - like you I set my Sky Q and Virgin V6 to 1080i for most viewing and manually switch to 2160p for 4K viewing.
> 
> If I can get the Lumagen to force these boxes to output 1080i for HD viewing by using different memories it will save a lot of time having to manually change the output resolution.
> 
> I will contact Lumagen as you suggest to see if this is possible
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> 
> If you are watching SkyQ on 1080i native, and assuming you are outputting to display at 1080p or 2160p do you see artifacts? My main viewing is US drama via SkyQ, and what I see is background motion, which gets a comb/jaggy effect on slight movement. A common scenario is you will have a character mainly in the foreground, and a character in the background may make a movement, and you get the artifacts around the motion. I haven't looked at this any closer for about a year, but I didn't have this issue with the firmware before the deinterlacing improvements awhile back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the reply, I have not noticed the issue with the TV shows you mentioned but I will take a closer look later on and report back.
> 
> I am currently outputting 1080i from the sky Q box and the lumagen is outputting 2160p to my Panasonic OLED.
> 
> I have tried the EDID limit on the Radiance to force the sky q box to output 1080p but the limit is ignored. Using the EDID to force the Virgin V6 box to output 1080p works well.
> 
> I have been in touch with Lumagen support and they don't seem to think that it is possible to force the sky Q to output 1080i or p with the EDID limit.
> 
> I've asked if they can introduce EDID limit of 1080i as an option for the Virgin V6 box but not heard anything back yet
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Brian
Click to expand...

Yes if I power up with my Sky HD Mem and try to switch box from 1080p to 2160p it says my TV won't support it. If I switch to my Sky UHD Mem it let's me switch to 2160p. On next power up on Sky HD Mem it ignores this and box is still at 2160p.This implies the SkyQ only checks EDID on manual res switch, not on a power up from standby.


----------



## scrowe

bobof said:


> I could be wrong here, but I didn't think the de-interlacer in the Pro is anywhere near as comprehensive as was in non-pro units courtesy of the Gennum VXP chip. "Back in the day" there was a lot of work put into deinterlacing by specialist companies, trying to deal with all the special cases (like interlaced scrolling text over video with 3:2 pulldown, discerning the difference between interlaced video and interlaced film - film mode vs video mode detection, etc), and these days I don't think it gets as much attention.
> 
> If someone wants to compare how these things fare, probably the best source to use to try and form an objective opinion of the behaviour would be the demo / test discs from the then-competing HQV scaler / deinterlacer chips. I've got the PAL and NTSC versions somewhere around here, though I've lost interest in interlaced video these days.


I've never properly understood whether cheap cable/satellite boxes that output 1080i native, but can be forced to 1080p do anything but double the lines, as opposed to an expensive chip and software magically recreating the missing picture information. I want to believe my multi-thousand pound Lumagan Pro does it better than my £200 Sky box.


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> Never hurts to ask, and if we get more people requesting a horizontal barrel and pin-cushion feature we will consider adding it to the to-do list.



+1
A friend, who bought my _old_ Radiance pro and is not an active member here due to the language barrier, asked me to put his 'name' on the list. 

He also would like to see some form of noise reduction/edge enhancement, since it is already in the menu.


----------



## Wookii

jrp said:


> To be added to the to-do list we would need a number of people to request this feature be added. We would then need to investigate if the Vertical-Keystone-Correction logic could serve as a foundation for horizontal pin-cushion and barrel distortion correction (I believe this is likely true), and how much additional logic and time would be needed to implement it.
> 
> Never hurts to ask, and if we get more people requesting a horizontal barrel and pin-cushion feature we will consider adding it to the to-do list.


I'll be hopefully installing a Paladin DCR lens next week, so if barrel distortion correction is likely to improve the use of that lens, then please add my +1 to that feature request also.


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> Never hurts to ask, and if we get more people requesting a horizontal barrel and pin-cushion feature we will consider adding it to the to-do list.


Jim, the response is quite significant, hopefully enough to add it to the to-list. I think once you incorporate this feature this will go viral in the 

DCR/ISCO threads.


----------



## loggeo

Count me in. Using a Paladic DCR on minimum throw (1.4). It would be awesome.


----------



## Eventidal

loggeo said:


> Count me in. Using a Paladic DCR on minimum throw (1.4). It would be awesome.


NICE!!! Once Jim confirms we need to bring this to the attention of DCR owners in the Paladin DCR thread....


----------



## AlterBridge86

jrp said:


> Never hurts to ask, and if we get more people requesting a horizontal barrel and pin-cushion feature we will consider adding it to the to-do list.


I have a DCR at right around minimum throw as well, so count me in for barrel distortion correction!


----------



## Craig Peer

AlterBridge86 said:


> I have a DCR at right around minimum throw as well, so count me in for barrel distortion correction!


Same here. So +1 !


----------



## rcsauvag

AlterBridge86 said:


> I have a DCR at right around minimum throw as well, so count me in for barrel distortion correction!


As someone who is curious about a DCR lens, how big of a problem is this? From reading on the site they made it seem like its really not and the distortion gets lost in the screen frame 1.5" anyways?


----------



## AlterBridge86

rcsauvag said:


> As someone who is curious about a DCR lens, how big of a problem is this? From reading on the site they made it seem like its really not and the distortion gets lost in the screen frame 1.5" anyways?


It's not a big problem at all. The barrel distortion, even at minimum throw, is very subtle. Currently I just zoom it into the velvet border around the screen and am none the wiser. 

Of course, if I have the _option _of getting that minimal distortion corrected for, I'd go with that for sure!


----------



## bobof

AlterBridge86 said:


> It's not a big problem at all. The barrel distortion, even at minimum throw, is very subtle. Currently I just zoom it into the velvet border around the screen and am none the wiser.
> 
> Of course, if I have the _option _of getting that minimal distortion corrected for, I'd go with that for sure!


Have folk actually tested what this kind of correction would do for the image quality?
It sounds like it would be a very small scale factor across a large proportion of the screen, which is usually bad news. Think how much of a panning folk give keystone adjustment, this is very similar.

Just thinking aloud here, might a better option not be to have a pixel perfect barrel distortion crop function, that allowed you to crop pixels around the edge of the screen in the shape of the barrel distortion, while leaving the image unaltered? SO you'd overscan your image to the point where the whole screen had pixels projected onto it, and then crop the areas that significantly extended onto the frame?


----------



## AlterBridge86

bobof said:


> Have folk actually tested what this kind of correction would do for the image quality?
> It sounds like it would be a very small scale factor across a large proportion of the screen, which is usually bad news. Think how much of a panning folk give keystone adjustment, this is very similar.
> 
> Just thinking aloud here, might a better option not be to have a pixel perfect barrel distortion crop function, that allowed you to crop pixels around the edge of the screen in the shape of the barrel distortion, while leaving the image unaltered? SO you'd overscan your image to the point where the whole screen had pixels projected onto it, and then crop the areas that significantly extended onto the frame?


That's a good point, I know I haven't tested it because that capability doesn't exist anywhere in my equipment stack currently...not sure if something like MadVR can do it currently to even get an idea what the end result would be. 

Of course if this sort of correction caused more harm than good, I wouldn't use it . You're second solution is what I do currently, using the projector's built in masking to cover up the few pixels on the edges which are distorted.


----------



## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Same here. So +1 !



I'll throw my hat in the ring too as a DCR owner like Craig!


----------



## thrang

I’d still like to see further tweaks to DTM. Later firmware seems to introduce some colorization in highlight/gradient areas that I did not notice earlier.

We need detailed documentation with test examples for dialing in DTM settings and the interrelationship between the settings.

I’d like to see Lumagen endeavor to add a BYOM auto calibration feature (bring your own meter) as the number of qualified calibrators are vanishingly small. A bare bones computer app (if necessary) for meter connection, computations, pattern control, and text report. No fancy GUI or graphics/charts. Perhaps it could use measured values for better baseline DTM settings as well.


Separately, I wonder what deleterious impact there is on resolution using shrink, keystone, and the requested pincushion features...


----------



## KarlKlammer

thrang said:


> I’d still like to see further tweaks to DTM.


 Yes, I also think that some further tweaks would be good for DTM.
Here is an example from The Magnificent Seven, where I can see some extensive clipping compared to IM.
It doesn't really matter how I set the parameters. The clipping remains.

With IM parameters it was possible to give the transfer function an s-shape. My attempts at measuring DTM (Dynamic 1, forced maxCLL) somehow show that it is no longer an s-shape. Maybe there a connection to the clipping in some scenes.


----------



## stefanop

Does anybody know how to set default values in DTM? There is no more reset caption in the low/high menu.


----------



## Mark_H

Bring up the on screen DTM menu (left button on the remote) then cycle through the ON/OFF/'set to defaul't options, remembering to OK to make it stick.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> Have folk actually tested what this kind of correction would do for the image quality?
> It sounds like it would be a very small scale factor across a large proportion of the screen, which is usually bad news. Think how much of a panning folk give keystone adjustment, this is very similar.
> 
> *Just thinking aloud here, might a better option not be to have a pixel perfect barrel distortion crop function, that allowed you to crop pixels around the edge of the screen in the shape of the barrel distortion, while leaving the image unaltered? SO you'd overscan your image to the point where the whole screen had pixels projected onto it, and then crop the areas that significantly extended onto the frame?*


That would work for me. With an electric screen, my masking isn't as dark as with most fixed screens.


----------



## giomania

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, I also think that some further tweaks would be good for DTM.
> Here is an example from The Magnificent Seven, where I can see some extensive clipping compared to IM.
> It doesn't really matter how I set the parameters. The clipping remains.
> 
> With IM parameters it was possible to give the transfer function an s-shape. My attempts at measuring DTM (Dynamic 1, forced maxCLL) somehow show that it is no longer an s-shape. Maybe there a connection to the clipping in some scenes.




If that is the scene in the magnificent seven that is supposed to be a good example of both dark and bright areas (specular highlight in an overall low-APL scene) would you please advise the chapter and or timestamp?

That is one of the pieces of information missing in my “guide”. 

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mike_WI

giomania said:


> If that is the scene in the magnificent seven that is supposed to be a good example of both dark and bright areas (specular highlight in an overall low-APL scene) would you please advise the chapter and or timestamp?
> 
> That is one of the pieces of information missing in my “guide”.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thank you for your continued efforts -- and comments in my HT thread today.


----------



## KarlKlammer

giomania said:


> If that is the scene in the magnificent seven that is supposed to be a good example of both dark and bright areas (specular highlight in an overall low-APL scene) would you please advise the chapter and or timestamp?


No, I wouldn't say that it is a good example. It is just a scene where I think DTM has an issue.
This is chapter 3 / 12:01. According to the live profiler there is 1113 maxCLL and 1752 MaxY.


----------



## giomania

KarlKlammer said:


> No, I wouldn't say that it is a good example. It is just a scene where I think DTM has an issue.
> This is chapter 3 / 12:01. According to the live profiler there is 1113 maxCLL and 1752 MaxY.




Thanks.

Do you know of a better example?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## KarlKlammer

I think there are a few good scenes in 'Phantastic Beasts' (with flashes and such). But I would have search for the time codes.
We could also take a look at the _epic madVR screenshot thread_ for some good examples.


----------



## Craig Peer

The Magnificent Seven 4K BR seems like a movie shot in a stylized " blown out " look to begin with. It's an odd looking disc at times without DTM.


----------



## giomania

Thanks guys. I saw the reference to Magnificent 7 at some point, but as stated, there may be better examples nowadays.

I will just incorporate these comments into the recommended material section.

Edit:

I have the time stamp for the Magnificent 7 scene at 16:00. This was one of two examples provided to set the MaxLight (Display Max Light) to reflect the display maximum light output capability in the CMS setup: MENU → Output → CMSs → [CMS] → HDR Mapping

The two program examples mentioned in the Radiance Pro manual on page 18, for adjusting Intensity Mapping Controls are The Magnificent 7 and Mad Max Fury Road. It also notes about making the initial setup on this same page, so I always assumed these were the two sources to use, at the time the manual was written.

Based on this information, here is what I have in my guide in the HDR IM CMS Setup section:

4)	Make the adjustment while viewing (paused) HDR source material. Choose a scene with both dark and bright areas or a scene with a very bright object; see the HDR Content Examples section for further details on the scene examples below.
a.	Example 1: The Magnificent 7™ (2016) at 16:00 has both dark and bright areas.
b.	Example 2: Mad Max Fury Road (2015) at 38:13 has a very bright object (a muzzle flash).

The Radiance Pro training presentation Jim posted specifically mentioned Mad Max and The Martian scenes for two examples to use in adjusting HDR IM parameters (no mention of setting MaxLight). *Basically, I am looking for what (if any) specific program material scenes would be best for the initial setting of MaxLight in the CMS Setup*.

Any input/comments appreciated.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Lasalle

giomania said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Do you know of a better example?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You might like some of the “Magic Blue Light” scenes in Smurfs 2, especially the outdoor night ones
Also Life of Pi, night water scene


----------



## Garth Jacobsen

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

Garth Jacobsen said:


> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk




You press the “alt” button when you have the abbreviated menu up to switch between high and low parameters, as noted on page 73 of the guide linked in my signature.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Garth Jacobsen

giomania said:


> You press the “alt” button when you have the abbreviated menu up to switch between high and low parameters, as noted on page 73 of the guide linked in my signature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks! 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## KarlKlammer

KarlKlammer said:


> Here is an example from The Magnificent Seven, where I can see some extensive clipping compared to IM.
> It doesn't really matter how I set the parameters. The clipping remains.



I found out, that setting Display Max Light to 1800 removes the clipping in that scene...


----------



## RickAVManiac

For Radiance Pro owner, I think this news is cool 🙂

Zappiti as release a new firmware for there HDR media player that allow a source direct (no scaling and no processing) mode. So everything is send native (ex. 1080p or DVD) to the Radiance than the Radiance can apply is own scaling and processing. 

Small media box never have good processing and scaling so I think this will made a difference in my setup... Cant wait to test that new feature.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...s-content-streaming/#/topics/2686633?page=274


----------



## Wookii

RickAVManiac said:


> For Radiance Pro owner, I think this news is cool 🙂
> 
> Zappiti as release a new firmware for there HDR media player that allow a source direct (no scaling and no processing) mode. So everything is send native (ex. 1080p or DVD) to the Radiance than the Radiance can apply is own scaling and processing.
> 
> Small media box never have good processing and scaling so I think this will made a difference in my setup... Cant wait to test that new feature.
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...s-content-streaming/#/topics/2686633?page=274


The Zidoo and Dune players have had that as an option for quite some time.


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> The Zidoo and Dune players have had that as an option for quite some time.


The Dune most certainly does and the Nvidia Shiled does as long as you don't use Plex. You can use either MrMC or Kodi but the UI of both of those is much more "clunky" than Plex - at least to me. But with the Lumagen's ability to "fake out" the Shield/Plex combination, I will continue to use it.


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> The Dune most certainly does and the Nvidia Shiled does as long as you don't use Plex. You can use either MrMC or Kodi but the UI of both of those is much more "clunky" than Plex - at least to me. But with the Lumagen's ability to "fake out" the Shield/Plex combination, I will continue to use it.




How do you configure the Pro so the Shield TV Plex app will send native resolution and frame rate? I don’t remember hearing about this.

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

giomania said:


> How do you configure the Pro so the Shield TV Plex app will send native resolution and frame rate? I don’t remember hearing about this.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


See post #4595 in this thread. This technique "fakes out" the Shield/Plex so it thinks it "sees" a 1080P projector so sends 1080P as 1080P. Of course, to have it send 4K, another "pseudo input" on the Lumagen is required. Since I know if I will be watching in either 4K or 1080P this works for me. My wife won't care so if she selects the input that is actually 4K, then the Shield/Plex will upscale. (But she couldn't tell the difference nor would she care).


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> See post #4595 in this thread. This technique "fakes out" the Shield/Plex so it thinks it "sees" a 1080P projector so sends 1080P as 1080P. Of course, to have it send 4K, another "pseudo input" on the Lumagen is required. Since I know if I will be watching in either 4K or 1080P this works for me. My wife won't care so if she selects the input that is actually 4K, then the Shield/Plex will upscale. (But she couldn't tell the difference nor would she care).




Without looking at the post, I understand. So you are limiting one of the virtual inputs to 1080p, which is a great idea. If only I wasn’t out of inputs. Do I use all my inputs? Yes Could I eliminate one source device? Probably.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## aeneas01

my setup: windows 10 htpc > lumagen pro > 4k uhd hdr projector (benq lk953st, pixel shift).

what's the best way to play the my hdr files that i've ripped from my 4k/uhd/hdr blu-ray library?

do i disable hdr in windows and let my lumagen handle the hdr tone mapping? if so, how do i pass hdr to the lumagen with hdr turned off in windows? i tried using potplayer/madvr and setting madvr to pass thru hdr (with windows hdr turned off) but that didn't seem to work... also, fwiw, i also have a vertex if that will help the cause.

any help would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Wookii

aeneas01 said:


> my setup: windows 10 htpc > lumagen pro > 4k uhd hdr projector (benq lk953st, pixel shift).
> 
> what's the best way to play the my hdr files that i've ripped from my 4k/uhd/hdr blu-ray library?
> 
> do i disable hdr in windows and let my lumagen handle the hdr tone mapping? if so, how do i pass hdr to the lumagen with hdr turned off in windows? i tried using potplayer/madvr and setting madvr to pass thru hdr (with windows hdr turned off) but that didn't seem to work... also, fwiw, i also have a vertex if that will help the cause.
> 
> any help would be greatly appreciated!


If you want to use the Lumagen tone mapping, you need to pass the video stream with the HDR metadata untouched so the Pro sees it as a true HDR signal. How you do that with MadVR is probably more a question for the MadVR thread.


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> If you want to use the Lumagen tone mapping, you need to pass the video stream with the HDR metadata untouched so the Pro sees it as a true HDR signal. How you do that with MadVR is probably more a question for the MadVR thread.


Interesting. I was under the impression that DTM on MadVR was excellent and someone is building a MadVR dedicated product to compete with the Lumagen????


----------



## beastaudio

audioguy said:


> Interesting. I was under the impression that DTM on MadVR was excellent and someone is building a MadVR dedicated product to compete with the Lumagen????


Yep, Shi is working on a standalone unit.


----------



## aeneas01

Wookii said:


> If you want to use the Lumagen tone mapping, you need to pass the video stream with the HDR metadata untouched so the Pro sees it as a true HDR signal. How you do that with MadVR is probably more a question for the MadVR thread.


not really asking how i accomplish this using madvr (as i mentioned i tried and couldn't get it to work), and more interested in knowing what others are doing to accomplish this (pass the video stream with hdr metadata untouched to the pro), those with htpc + lumagen pro... or is something that most (all?) htpc + lumagen pro owners don't bother doing, trying to pass the metadata from their pc to their lumagen? if that's the case, how are most folks using an htpc + lumagen pro combination?


----------



## llang269

Do you have to send the Pro back to Lumagen to add the 18ghz cards?


----------



## SJHT

llang269 said:


> Do you have to send the Pro back to Lumagen to add the 18ghz cards?


I did them all myself but with the older/larger enclosure. You can certainly find out by calling them.... SJ


----------



## Eventidal

llang269 said:


> Do you have to send the Pro back to Lumagen to add the 18ghz cards?


No. It's a very easy install! Got mine by mail.


----------



## GerryWaz

I had issues trying to removing the screws from the old card so I sent it back to them. Came back just fine--and quickly. Great service.


Might replace another input card shortly. Will have them do it from the start. YMMV.


----------



## dlinsley

GerryWaz said:


> I had issues trying to removing the screws from the old card so I sent it back to them. Came back just fine--and quickly. Great service.


One of my cards was torqued really high, and I stripped the screws even with my Wiha and Wera screw drivers. I did eventually get it out, but let Jim know in case it was an issue on the production line.


----------



## Eventidal

I had to use my electric screwdriver, they were so damn tight. But in the end everything worked like a charm.


----------



## giomania

I ran my first calibration today using Chromapure v3 with the radiance pro; Rec.709 125-point just to start, and all sources have strange colors now.

I’ve been through all the settings and can’t figure out what is the problem. Here is a picture from an OPPO menu.










Thanks for any insight.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> I ran my first calibration today using Chromapure v3 with the radiance pro; Rec.709 125-point just to start, and all sources have strange colors now.
> 
> I’ve been through all the settings and can’t figure out what is the problem. Here is a picture from an OPPO menu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any insight.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This morning I thought to check the other display connected to the Radiance Pro, and it has the same issue, so it is not a display setting that I changed prior to calibration. I am thinking this must be some setting in the CMS section, since that is what the ChromaPure v3 Autocal calibration modifies?

I have a pre-calibration backup file I can re-load so I can run the calibration again, but it would be nice to know what is causing the issue.

The only thing I can think of that I may have done incorrectly was to change the HDR / 2020 CMS from CMS 1 to CMS 0 prior to calibration, and then reverted that change post-calibration. I am not sure if that guidance should apply to ChromaPure Autocal. 

I only ran a 125-point calibration to test out the process, so not a big deal to run it again, but it would be nice to know what I did wrong.

Edit: I figured out what I did wrong: I ran another calibration without changing the HDR / 2020 CMS from CMS 1 to CMS 0 prior to calibration, and it looks fine. 

I know the guidance for SDR2020 calibrations has the recommendation to change the 601/709 CMS from CMS 0 to CMS 1 prior to calibration, and then reverted that change post-calibration. I guess I got mixed up between HDR and SDR calibrations.

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on some posts, and news on the next Dynamic Tone Mapping release:

The Radiance Pro CMS only does what it is told. If you have color issues after a calibration then the calibration is suspect. The only calibration software (at this point) that I would recommend as good enough to do a 3D LUT, especially for Rec 2020, is Lightspace. I know Portrait Displays has hired a Color Scientist to improve their 3D LUT Rec 2020 calibration. So I expect Calman will have a much improved 3D LUT capability at come point in the future. My attempts at 3D LUTs with Chromapure did not work out for me.

For the Lumagen Demo Theater I use Lightspace for 3D LUTs. I have also used Calman, but did not have great results for 3D LUTs using Calman. If you have a projector with good Rec 709, and Rec 2020, response to its Gamut limit (such as the RS4500) a 1D LUT may be sufficient for excellent performance.

In the Lumagen theater Radiance Pro I have two different Calman calibrations (1D LUT only, with one each for SDR and HDR) that look good. I also have a full 3D LUT for SDR and another for HDR using Lightspace. I use the 3D LUT calibration on daily basis, and believe it is better than the 1D only calibration. 

The advantage of using Lightspace to do 3D LUTs for our RS4500 is that I can set the Color Mode in the RS4500 to Off. This bypasses its internal CMS and in my measurements gives a slightly larger Gamut for Green and Red, but necessitates doing a 3D LUT calibration. I use this for both SDR Rec 709 and HDR Rec 2020. At least in our RS4500 the Rec 709 mode shows a slightly under-saturated Green, but the Color Mode = Off allows me to get a fully saturated Green for Rec 709 using Lightspace 3D LUT.

For reference I use a CR-100 tri-stimulus probe calibrated against Kris Deering's CR-250 spectro-radiometer for the Lumagen RS4500. For the 3D LUTs I did a 21x21x21 profile run (took about 4 hours each since I increased the minimum measurement time).

====

When we change Tone Mapping, if you see color changes, the issue is in the projector/TV, and/or potentially in the calibration. The Tone Mapping modifies red, green, and blue by exactly the same percentage and so cannot change the color. Of course intensity changes the perception of the color, but this would be a change in perceived saturation as the intensity is changed rather than a change in color (e.g. red versus green). 

Precision issues in the projector can also come into play. For example some projectors that are DCI based truncate to 8-bit internally. If you have a dark color (say 30 in the 16 to 235 range used for 8 bit color) a change might affect only one channel. This is due to how "fractional bits" come into play. In the above case if only red changed by one LSB it changes the percentage of red from (30-16)/(235-16) = 6.39% to (29-16)/(235-16) = 5.94%. Then since Green stays at 6.39% (assuming near the gray vector) in the example the percentage change versus red is (6.39%-5.94%)/6.39% = 7%. This artifact of the limited pipeline precision away form red due to the truncation to 8-bits in the projector can be a noticeable color shift.

In contrast the calibration pipeline of the Radiance Pro is 12-bits (and much higher in critical spots) this type of precision error would be no more than 0.44% (1/16 that of 8-bit) and so is very likely not noticeable. In testing with the RS4500 we see no color shifts due to changes in Tone Mapping. Of course we do see changes in the intensity due to the improvements in tone mapping affecting the transfer function.

==== 

We have have been testing the next version of Dynamic Tone Mapping, and it is IMO (and others) yet another improvement in the Radiance Pro's DTM. This upcoming release includes a new blending algorithm between dark and bright transfer functions and well as additional improvements in scene detection.

We should have a release with the new DTM, and a couple other improvements, in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## audioguy

I'm a newbie Radiance Pro owner but am more than a bit impressed by the ongoing support and upgrades that Jim and his team provide. Someone made the comment that the Lumagen Radiance Pro is the Trinnov of video. At this point, it would be hard to argue that......and mine hasn't even been calibrated yet !!!!


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I'm a newbie Radiance Pro owner but am *more than a bit impressed by the ongoing support and upgrades that Jim and his team provide.* Someone made the comment that the Lumagen Radiance Pro is the Trinnov of video. At this point, it would be hard to argue that......and mine hasn't even been calibrated yet !!!!


Agreed. The improvement of the Radiance Pro via firmware upgrades over the last year has been amazing. And support via email is 2nd to none ! Thanks to DTM, I'm enjoying my RS4500 and 4k movies more than ever !


----------



## giomania

I’m having a hard time getting my head wrapped around the storage of multiple calibrations using auto cal with Chromapure v3.

I ran 125 point SDR calibration just to make sure everything is working and now that I’m going to run a 729 point SDR

After that I want to run a 729 point HDR calibration, but want to make sure the SDR calibration isn’t over written.

How does this work? Automagically in CMS memory, or do I need to change to a different CMS before running the HDR calibration?

I realize CP3 is not ideal for 3DLUT with HDR but it’s all I have and it’s better than nothing.

Thank you for any help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Dominic Chan

giomania said:


> I’m having a hard time getting my head wrapped around the storage of multiple calibrations using auto cal with Chromapure v3.
> 
> I ran 125 point SDR calibration just to make sure everything is working and now that I’m going to run a 729 point SDR
> 
> After that I want to run a 729 point HDR calibration, but want to make sure the SDR calibration isn’t over written.
> 
> How does this work? Automagically in CMS memory, or do I need to change to a different CMS before running the HDR calibration?
> 
> I realize CP3 is not ideal for 3DLUT with HDR but it’s all I have and it’s better than nothing.
> 
> Thank you for any help.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


AFAIK, if you use the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping the projector only needs to be calibrated for gamma 2.4, not HDR ST.2084 PQ. However, the colour profile needs to be BT.2020 or DCI-P3.


----------



## giomania

Dominic Chan said:


> AFAIK, if you use the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping the projector only needs to be calibrated for gamma 2.4, not HDR ST.2084 PQ. However, the colour profile needs to be BT.2020 or DCI-P3.


Thanks. I will save the configuration files individually before and after the HDR calibration just to be sure. That way, if I screw something up, just re-load the configuration.

I am planning on using a separate profiles in my JVC RS540 projector, both with Profile Off, Filter On, gamma 2.4, and one with ~14 fL for SDR and one with whatever maximum Lumens I can get for HDR.

Mark


----------



## TomHuffman

giomania said:


> I’m having a hard time getting my head wrapped around the storage of multiple calibrations using auto cal with Chromapure v3.


The Lumagen automatically stores calibrations in CMS0 when it detects a SDR input and CMS01 when it detects a HDR input. If you only used SDR709 and HDR2020 calibrations, this would be all you would have to concern yourself with. SDR2020 calibrations introduce a complication. The Lumagen detects a HDR input and so will store the calibration in CMS01, which would overwrite any HDR2020 calibration you would have there. For this reason, we recommend that you copy any HDR2020 calibration to another CMS, so that it can be retrieved at any time. Also, you should copy the SDR2020 calibration to another CMS as well for the same reason. 

For playback use CMS0 for SDR709 and CMS01 for both HDR2020 and SDR2020. Just copy the stored SDR2020 or HDR2020 to CMS01 prior to playback.

I hope that this clarifies the issue.

In the next release we will offer a wizard that automates much of the a Lumagen auto-cal process. We have had a lot of support issues with this. The problem appears to be either corrupted installations not related to auto-cal or user error in following the documented steps. I am sympathetic to this because there are a lot of steps required, so it is easy to miss one, which is why we are automating much of this to simplify the process.


----------



## TomHuffman

giomania said:


> Edit: I figured out what I did wrong: I ran another calibration without changing the HDR / 2020 CMS from CMS 1 to CMS 0 prior to calibration, and it looks fine.
> 
> I know the guidance for SDR2020 calibrations has the recommendation to change the 601/709 CMS from CMS 0 to CMS 1 prior to calibration, and then reverted that change post-calibration. I guess I got mixed up between HDR and SDR calibrations.


If you have an active HDR-UHD input when you begin the Lumagen will automatically select CMS01 and you would have had no problem.

This is a good example of what I discussed below.


----------



## bobof

TomHuffman said:


> *The Lumagen automatically stores calibrations in CMS0 when it detects a SDR input and CMS01 *when it detects a HDR input. If you only used SDR709 and HDR2020 calibrations, this would be all you would have to concern yourself with. SDR2020 calibrations introduce a complication. The Lumagen detects a HDR input and so will store the calibration in CMS01, which would overwrite any HDR2020 calibration you would have there. For this reason, we recommend that you copy any HDR2020 calibration to another CMS, so that it can be retrieved at any time. Also, you should copy the SDR2020 calibration to another CMS as well for the same reason.
> 
> For playback use CMS0 for SDR709 and CMS01 for both HDR2020 and SDR2020. Just copy the stored SDR2020 or HDR2020 to CMS01 prior to playback.
> 
> I hope that this clarifies the issue.
> 
> In the next release we will offer a wizard that automates much of the a Lumagen auto-cal process. We have had a lot of support issues with this. The problem appears to be either corrupted installations not related to auto-cal or user error in following the documented steps. I am sympathetic to this because there are a lot of steps required, so it is easy to miss one, which is why we are automating much of this to simplify the process.


A clarification. The Lumagen stores the 3DLUT being uploaded into whatever CMS is currently active, and it automatically can switch CMS based on several different criteria. CMS0 for REC709 and CMS1 for REC2020 is the default behaviour though. However, it isn't a given that CMS0 and CMS1 correspond to SDR and HDR, as the actual CMS switched to for each input combination is configured in the "Output" screen in the Lumagen. 

---

As an aside @jrp it is a bit of a shame there isn't a LUT upload command in the API that can upload to a specified CMS slot instead of the currently active slot. or a command to just switch CMS for LUT upload. For people using something like Lightspace to target multiple LUTS from profiles it is a bit of an annoyance to have to replicate input states or change the output settings just to upload a LUT to a particular slot.


----------



## *Harry*

bobof said:


> CMS0 for REC709 and CMS1 for REC2020 is the default behaviour though.


 But Tom wrote


> a HDR input and so will store the calibration in CMS*01*


So I wonder if that was a typo or does the Pro really have different CMS grouped slots for 709 / 2020?
(CMS 0...9 = 709 and CMS 01...09 = 2020 ... )


----------



## bobof

*Harry* said:


> But Tom wrote So I wonder if that was a typo or does the Pro really have different CMS grouped slots for 709 / 2020?
> (CMS 0...9 = 709 and CMS 01...09 = 2020 ... )


No, there aren't two groups of slots, that would be a minor typo from Tom I believe. It is 8 CMS slots, CMS0-7 shared for for REC709/2020 - and 3D duties also if you calibrate that (typically only 709). By default all REC709 sources are pointed at CMS0 and all REC2020 sources at CMS1. This means that SDR2020 and HDR2020 sources would both point at CMS1 by default - so these CMS are not really for HDR vs SDR, but for REC709 vs REC2020 colourspace input. While all HDR tends to be 2020, not all SDR is 709 thanks to devices like the Panasonic players. Many of the HDR settings reside in the CMS slot, but are only activated when the input is HDR.

See the following from Lumagen manual:


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to drop my feedback in regards latest DTM feature that Lumagen has developed, it is indeed increased the overall performance of how the image is processed and displayed, I've rewatched few common titles (Earth 2, Dynasties, Polar and other movies) and I must say it works now much better, i.e. the overall pictures looks even more popout, no crushing blacks or whites. I like that you have introduced a DTM value setting, which identifies how aggressively you want to apply this new algorithm, I remain this watching at 5 but sometimes I change to 6. 
@jrp very satisfied with what you've implemented so far.


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> On P3 matrix conversion:
> 
> - We set the P3 output up to target Gamma of 2.4. This is to match the Gamma we use for HDR-to-SDR2020 output. It allows one "P3 D65 Gamma 2.4" CMS to be used for 709 source and HDR output as "SDR P3 D65."
> 
> - You need to select the "DCI P3 D65" mode for the calibration software as shown in the SoulOfUniverse's post.
> 
> - The only color format defined for P3 is RGB. If your TV/projector supports P3, and pays attention to the HDMI Info Frame P3 flag, then you might not be required to do a 3D LUT calibration if you output P3 in RGB color format. If you output P3 in any other color format you need to do a 3D LUT calibration since there is no standard for the conversion to YCbCr. Typically you will need to do a calibration for TV/projectors that do not have a specific P3 D65 mode.
> 
> - The matrix conversion comes before the 3D LUT. It is in the same "RGB Linear Gamma" portion of the pipeline where the HDR Intensity Mapping resides.
> 
> - You must set the output "Colorspace" as P3 (output as P3 always enable the matrix conversion from the source format), and output color format (typically RGB for P3) *before* doing the calibration since it affects the calibration
> 
> - If you want P3 output for both 709 and 2020, calibrate for "DCI P3 D65" for CMS0 and then copy to CMS1. This allows you to tweak the CMS differently for SDR and for HDR sources while using the same 1D and 3D LUT.
> 
> ====
> 
> For output of HDR as 709, or 709 as 2020, the matrix conversion is optional. We recommend turning it on if you plan to do a calibration as this will give you netter results than jut using the 3D LUT to do the conversion. If you have not done a calibration we recommend turning the matrix conversion on. If you have already done a calibration and turn matrix conversion on your calibration will be voided.
> 
> ====
> 
> Please note: It is early in the game for P3. I suggest waiting until the dust has settled a bit if you plan to hire in a calibrator to use the new matrix conversions. If you do your own calibrations we believe the conversion are working correctly. So please do calibrate your system and let us know your results. I believe we will have enough feedback in the next week or two to confirm all is working with P3 and so if you plan to hire a calibrator to use the new matrix conversion I think a couple of weeks from now should be good.


Has anyone tried this with a JVC RS540 (X790x7900) projector? I see from the JVC manual that the "Cinema 2" profile is described as "Color space that is close to that of the DCI standard". That said, I am guessing that this color space is not technically a DCI-P3 (RGB) Colorspace and I doubt the projector honors the HDMI Info Frame P3 flag.

Assuming both of these are true, as Jim recommends, I would need to use I could use the "Cinema 2" profile, as that is (apparently) closet to DCI-P3 Colorspace, and set the Radiance™ Pro output at YCbCr 4:2:2. The problem I have is this method requires a 3D LUT calibration, and I experienced issues with creating a 1D & 3DLUT when attempting an SDR2020 calibration using ChromaPure. The issues was the 3DLUT, because when I ran only the 1DLUT, it worked fine. The 1D & 3DLUT worked fine using ChromaPure for an SDR709 calibration.

I successfully ran three calibrations, saved to three different CMS memories, but am just wondering if this option would be better. I currently have an SDR709 for CMS0, and SDR2020 for CMS1, and an SDR709 for 3D on CMS3. I created the separate 3D calibration because I strapped the 3D glasses to the Colorimeter. I still need to calibrate my LG B7A OLED TV, so that will use two more of the CMS memories.

Mark


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

giomania said:


> Has anyone tried this with a JVC RS540 (X790x7900) projector? I see from the JVC manual that the "Cinema 2" profile is described as "Color space that is close to that of the DCI standard". That said, I am guessing that this color space is not technically a DCI-P3 (RGB) Colorspace and I doubt the projector honors the HDMI Info Frame P3 flag.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming both of these are true, as Jim recommends, I would need to use I could use the "Cinema 2" profile, as that is (apparently) closet to DCI-P3 Colorspace, and set the Radiance Pro output at YCbCr 4:2:2. The problem I have is this method requires a 3D LUT calibration, and I experienced issues with creating a 1D & 3DLUT when attempting an SDR2020 calibration using ChromaPure. The issues was the 3DLUT, because when I ran only the 1DLUT, it worked fine. The 1D & 3DLUT worked fine using ChromaPure for an SDR709 calibration.
> 
> 
> 
> I successfully ran three calibrations, saved to three different CMS memories, but am just wondering if this option would be better. I currently have an SDR709 for CMS0, and SDR2020 for CMS1, and an SDR709 for 3D on CMS3. I created the separate 3D calibration because I strapped the 3D glasses to the Colorimeter. I still need to calibrate my LG B7A OLED TV, so that will use two more of the CMS memories.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


Hi Mark,
Instead of assuming by manual that the color space 2 is the closest to DCI-P3 gamut , I would run the probe on primaries and secondaries colour points with all existing color presets available on your JVC. You simply can do this in ChromaPure in precalibration section as I remember. What is the most important is to have a good RGB separation, as I remember chroma pure doesn't provide you this measuring, I use lightspace for all my calibrations and find this the best software at the moment to use for 3D lut calibrations it gives just very good results. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## stefanop

As an owner of SONY laser projector with dynamic black set to ON, I'd like to know if there's a possibility to turn on 1 white pixel on radiance to avoid laser shutdown in all-black images.
….and eventually how to turn it OFF.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

stefanop said:


> As an owner of SONY laser projector with dynamic black set to ON, I'd like to know if there's a possibility to turn on 1 white pixel on radiance to avoid laser shutdown in all-black images.
> 
> ….and eventually how to turn it OFF.


Not sure what you relate to, in real content you never have a completely black scene, as in regards the patterns you can toggle to show white pixel in the upper top corner when you do a calibration . 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## Eventidal

stefanop said:


> As an owner of SONY laser projector with dynamic black set to ON, I'd like to know if there's a possibility to turn on 1 white pixel on radiance to avoid laser shutdown in all-black images.
> ….and eventually how to turn it OFF.


As far as I remember you can. Patrick made this feature available within the test patterns for black level calibration.


----------



## audioguy

I was finally able to get my (new to me but refurbished) PC to connect to the Lumagen (after some assistance from Jim Peterson) and download the latest firmware, with the attendant improvements in DTM. Last night we watched the latest "How To Train Your Dragon" movie. 

It really is hard to imagine that film looking any better on any projector (I also have a Panamorph Paladin). I run my projector on mid-laser and based upon the projected images we viewed last night, that is more than enough light. 

And, this is using the calibration that existed in my JVC (done my ChadB) with the Lumagen just doing the tone mapping. Anxious to see what improvements will come when Craig Rounds is able to make it to my home and get the entire link calibrated. But even if that never happens, it really is a stunning image - just stunning.

And FWIW, even though this is probably considered a "kid's movie" we both enjoyed it. Animated movies have come a long, long way since I first saw the early Disney movies in the 50's.


----------



## aeneas01

audioguy said:


> I was finally able to get my (new to me but refurbished) PC to connect to the Lumagen (after some assistance from Jim Peterson) and download the latest firmware, with the attendant improvements in DTM. Last night we watched the latest "How To Train Your Dragon" movie.
> 
> It really is hard to imagine that film looking any better on any projector (I also have a Panamorph Paladin). I run my projector on mid-laser and based upon the projected images we viewed last night, that is more than enough light.
> 
> And, this is using the calibration that existed in my JVC (done my ChadB) with the Lumagen just doing the tone mapping. Anxious to see what improvements will come when Craig Rounds is able to make it to my home and get the entire link calibrated. But even if that never happens, it really is a stunning image - just stunning.
> 
> And FWIW, even though this is probably considered a "kid's movie" we both enjoyed it. Animated movies have come a long, long way since I first saw the early Disney movies in the 50's.


1. no soul should ever feel the need to apologize for "how to train your dragon", it's a clever, beautifully done dreamworks production, and the same goes for ratatouille!

2. can you tell me about your pc > lumagen setup, very interested, have been toying around with a similar setup and i'm close to bald from pulling my hair out!

thanks!


----------



## audioguy

aeneas01 said:


> 1. no soul should ever feel the need to apologize for "how to train your dragon", it's a clever, beautifully done dreamworks production, and the same goes for ratatouille!
> 
> 2. can you tell me about your pc > lumagen setup, very interested, have been toying around with a similar setup and i'm close to bald from pulling my hair out!
> 
> thanks!


I just used the PC to upgrade to the Lumagen to the latest firmware


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## aeneas01

audioguy said:


> I just used the PC to upgrade to the Lumagen to the latest firmware


ah, gotchya, thanks just the same!


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## stefanop

Eventidal said:


> As far as I remember you can. Patrick made this feature available within the test patterns for black level calibration.


Yes, I've read of it and I hoped there was a similar tip for normal video because while watching a movie, with black screen frames in it, SONY shut down the laser and power it up again when frame content is above black level; you have OFF-ON effect which is very distracting.


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## stefanop

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Not sure what you relate to, in real content you never have a completely black scene, as in regards the patterns you can toggle to show white pixel in the upper top corner when you do a calibration .
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


SONY algorithm probably shut down laser power not at 0 RGB level but a bit more higher and this is distracting with dark movies like "The cat o' nine tails" or "Chain reaction", just for naming 2 of them.


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## Eventidal

stefanop said:


> Yes, I've read of it and I hoped there was a similar tip for normal video because while watching a movie, with black screen frames in it, SONY shut down the laser and power it up again when frame content is above black level; you have OFF-ON effect which is very distracting.


I love this feature.... If you don´t then simply set the dimming to limited or off.


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## stefanop

Eventidal said:


> I love this feature.... If you don´t then simply set the dimming to limited or off.


Not same low light effect. With Limited blacks are a bit washed and with off blacks are gray.


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## jabz

Ever since I updated to Beta 112818 and then 011119 (Dynamic HDR tone mapping), I am having instances of video blanking/dropping out. It was pretty stable on my previous firmware which was 100317.

With 100317 I had my Oppo 203 connected to the Bd/DVD input of the Onkyo RZ3100, and the output connected to the input of the Lumagen Pro (18GHz input card). I have 1, 18GHz output card which is connected via fibre optic HDMI to my Sony VW520ES. This setup worked fine until I updated to 112818 I started getting video dropouts. 

So as a test I took the Onkyo AV receiver out of the video path, and connected the Oppo Main HDMI out direct to the Lumagen 18GHz input, and the Oppo 2nd (audio) HDMI out to the AV receiver. This cleared up the issue and it worked fine. 
However I also have an LG OLED and needed the Oppo to work with it too, and to maintain Dolby Vision, so I used a HD Fury Vertex in splitter mode to split the Oppo Main HDMI OUT. So from the Vertex HDMI 0 Output to the Lumagen Input, and HDMI 1 Output to the AV Receiver Bd/DVD input.

This is still causing video blanking/video dropouts.

So has anyone else experienced the same, and what did you do to fix it?
Have the most recent Firmware updates fixed it?
I may try a 9Ghz output port to the Projector, seeing as it doesn't need 18GHz, to check if the issue is isolated to the 18GHz output?

Note Direct input from the Oppo to Lumagen is ok, however need the Oppo to output to my Projector and also the LG OLED, so can't leave it in this config. What are others doing here?


----------



## uderman

Is there any room left on the fpga for 8K upscaling? I think 8K TVs will be very common in 2 years.


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## sjschaff

Anyone out there with an Nvidia Shield TV, who is attempting to play source files that are HDR, through the Lumagen? 



When I try to do so, I find that the advanced HDMI settings in the Nvidia, though they present an option for YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709, never let me "keep" this setting. It reverts back to YUV 422 8-bit Rec. 709. Using OK button on the Lumagen remote shows that the source colorspace and Lumagen are different. Input shows RGB-HDR709 and output 422-SDR2020. By the way, this is for using CMS1 for all HDR source. Also, not using Auto-Convert for either CMS0 or CMS1.



The only way I can get this option in the Nvidia to "stick" is to alter the Lumagen Pro's input setting for the Nvidia. The specific setting is Video Limit. Changing from 9ghz or 9ghz Max to 1080p has the Lumagen working with the Nvidia to allow a set of options, which includes the color space I tried to pick. When I now pick the YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 the Nvidia suddenly asks if I want to keep it. I say yes, and now find that when I return to the advanced HDMI settings the "current" setting has been updated to reflect the change. Lumagen OK button now shows for input 422-HDR2020 and output 422-SDR2020 while playing HDR source. So, this all seems to suggest some sort of limitation or disagreement in the Nvidia with the Lumagen or configuration problem on my part in either/both devices.



By the way, I have enabled colorimetry in the Nvidia via the developer options, as described in prior posts for Nvidia Shield for colorspace switching.


Also, if anyone is using the 18 ghz cards in the Lumagen along with the Shield does this combination allow for 422 12-bit Rec 709 to work on the Nvidia?


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

jabz said:


> What are others doing here?


Same config as yours ... no drop outs ... took 5 wks to figure this out. For this to work, Dolby Vision is "Forced" manually via Vertex when watching Dolby Vision 4k movies via LG OLED ... (the JVC projector is off when watching DV movies). When watching "non Dolby Vision" HDR movies, Dolby Vision is not forced via Vertex.

*Video drop outs can be caused by: remedy found*:

1. Bad cables: HDfury 18Ghz 6 ft, Tributaries 18GHz 6ft, RUIPRO 18GHz 10M optic cable.
2. Device settings: see below for OPPO and Vertex setup.
3. Device power up sequence: see below. 
4. Sink (display) devices are asleep and need to be awaken for proper handshaking: Sink Hot plug disconnect/reconnect and/or reset Vertex ... else, power off/on sink device.
5. Source devices are asleep and need to be awaken for proper handshaking: eject disk and re-insert disc and/or reset Vertex... else, power off/on source device.
6. AVR/Pre-Pro is asleep and is blocking handshaking btwn sink and source devices and need to be awaken: switch to another input then back ... else power off/on AVR/Pre-Pro.
7. "Forced Dolby Vision" by Vertex/OPPO: let Vertex do the manual "Force Dolby Vision" ... this works faster than having to eject the disc then forcing Dolby Vision via OPPO.

*Device Settings (Use Vertex App (not OPPO) to "Force Dolby Vision" when using LG OLED in Dolby Vision mode):*

*OPPO:* Set all video settings to (4k) Auto. This automatically forces 2160p/24 444 12bit BT2020 for HDR disc movies. For Dolby Vision disc movies, this forces 1080p/60, RGB, 8 bit tunneling of Dolby Vision. See Dolby Vision Tunneling below. LPro does 24p to 60p conversion.
*Vertex:* Automix, Mix Audio=max/max, Mix Video= nothing checked (except to "Forced DV" only when LG OLED is doing Dolby Vision and JVC is not on), no scaling.

*First power up sequence *(First step is needed to erase past history of EDID/HDCP handshakes ... for subsequent power up sequences, just do steps 2 and 3):

1. Turn off all devices. Then, pull power cords from AC power source for ALL devices in video/audio handshaking path. Wait 10 seconds. Plugin all devices ... DO NOT power up devices at this point ... i.e. leave all devices Standby mode. Wait 2 minutes for all handshaking to finish ... yes, devices talk to each other in standby mode.
2. Then power up Vertex and Audio Processor.
3. Then power up all other devices.

*Dolby Vision Tunneling:*

Dolby Vision HDR RGB Tunneling (copied from another source ... don't remember who):
The method Dolby Vision HDR (DV) uses to transport the signal over HDMI is referred to as “RGB Tunneling”. The 12-bit ICtCp or ITP colorspace DV signal + Metadata is encapsulated inside the regular RGB 8-bit video signal. The DV “tunneling” carries 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 data in an RGB 4:4:4 8-bit transport. This is possible because both signal formats have the same 8.9 Gbps data rate requirements.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...hite-paper.pdf

*Config:*

OPPO Main V/A(Out1) ---> Vertex(IN 0)

Vertex(Out 0) --->> LumagenPro(In 1)
Vertex(Out 1) ---> RMC-1(In 1)

Lumagen(Out 2 18 Gbps) --->---> JVC600 (In 1)

RMC-1 (Out 1 18 Gbps) ---> LG C8 OLED
RMC-1 (Out 2 18GHz) --->---> JVC 600 (In 2) ... used to compare LPro vs. Custom Curves on JVC

Cable Notes: 
---> = HDfury 18GHz 6ft Cable
--->> = Tributaries 18GHz 6ft Cable
--->---> = RUIPRO 10M 18GHz Fiber Cable


----------



## mikela




----------



## turls

uderman said:


> Is there any room left on the fpga for 8K upscaling? I think 8K TVs will be very common in 2 years.


Hopefully, we'll see what is left after the current todo list is done. PiP well over 3 years waiting at this point...

If 8K is in the conversation before that is done, that's a little over the top IMO...


----------



## audioguy

Got a chance to do some A/B-ing with the latest DTM firmware. LOVE it. Great upgrade to my video chain.

I have a few folks who might be prospective Lumagen clients and would like to give them a demo comparing with and without DTM engaged.

Can anyone recommend a movie and scene that makes the comparison obvious even to the untrained eye, so that I don't have to search through a gazillion movies to find a few good examples. 

Thanks


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

audioguy said:


> Got a chance to do some A/B-ing with the latest DTM firmware. LOVE it. Great upgrade to my video chain.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few folks who might be prospective Lumagen clients and would like to give them a demo comparing with and without DTM engaged.
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend a movie and scene that makes the comparison obvious even to the untrained eye, so that I don't have to search through a gazillion movies to find a few good examples.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


I tried Dynasties it's the series about life and animals on earth, also planet earth II I believe the best examples to demo DTM  

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I tried Dynasties it's the series about life and animals on earth, also planet earth II I believe the best examples to demo DTM


I don't have those but do have a couple of movies that might be great examples. "IMAX: Journey to Space" and "A Beautiful Planet". I will try those next time I am in the theater.

Thanks


----------



## Htnut2000

jabz said:


> Ever since I updated to Beta 112818 and then 011119 (Dynamic HDR tone mapping), I am having instances of video blanking/dropping out. It was pretty stable on my previous firmware which was 100317.


I have been having similar issues but cant pinpoint exactly which version started this. It seems to me that the recent firmware is more sensitive to cables.

I have talked to Jim and he believes it is an HDMI cable issue. 

I have ordered Tributary 2m cables and a Ruipro 20m cable to replace my existing cables and hope that that solves the problem.

HDMI is such a pain!


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## audioguy

Just remember: HDMI means Highly Demonic Media Interface


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## A7mad78

Htnut2000 said:


> I have been having similar issues but cant pinpoint exactly which version started this. It seems to me that the recent firmware is more sensitive to cables.
> 
> 
> 
> I have talked to Jim and he believes it is an HDMI cable issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I have ordered Tributary 2m cables and a Ruipro 20m cable to replace my existing cables and hope that that solves the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> HDMI is such a pain!




It’s true when I changed All my hdmi it work like I was laying about the issue i report every thing then works fine at the highest level 18gbps 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

I remember watching the Solo SW 4K HDR movie prior to IM and now DTM. It was so dark, we almost put on the Blu-ray version from K vs. playing the 4K HDR version. Now, much easier to watch with these improvements. SJ


----------



## KarlKlammer

DTM does a really good job with titles mastered at 1000 nits. But the more titles I watch that are mastered at >=4000 nits the more issues I notice. 

How do you set the parameters for The MEG for example to prevent the picture from looking overexposed and flat and highlights from being totally clipped?
It's the same issue I noticed with the scene from Magnificent Seven I posted some time ago. Display Max Light set to 1800 improves the picture at the cost of general brightness in darker scenes and 1000 nits titles being unwatchable.

I downgraded to Beta 011119. And at least the higlights looked a little bit better than with the current Beta. 

I hope this will be addressed with the upcoming version.


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## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I don't have those but do have a couple of movies that might be great examples. "IMAX: Journey to Space" and "A Beautiful Planet". I will try those next time I am in the theater.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks




Overlord, Guardians of the Galaxy II are two that come to mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

uderman said:


> Is there any room left on the fpga for 8K upscaling? I think 8K TVs will be very common in 2 years.


Which Lumagen Pro are you thinking of? I'm sure the 424x architecture only has a maximum of 18gbps simultaneous IO bandwidth which I think falls short for any of the 8K formats, so I don't think there is any possibility of those units going much above 4K.

I believe there is some chance the 444x could have input / output cards spanning two slots (4 ports) that could support 8K in and out.


----------



## jabz

Carbon Ft Print said:


> Same config as yours ... no drop outs ... took 5 wks to figure this out.


Awesome thanks for the detailed write up will try this out.
One note however the cables I'm using are as follows:

Monoprice SlimRun Fiber Optic AV HDR Cable 20m
Monoprice Certified Premium High Speed HDMI cable - 1.8m

Do I really need to change cables?


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## audioguy

My opinion, but 8K really does seem to be one of those "we can so we should" technologies. The arguments on both sides of the benefits (or lack) of 8K vs 4K are almost as vitriolic as political discussions. In my own experience (~13 feet from a 10 foot wide screen), the differences between properly shot 1080P and 4K PALE in comparison to the advantages of HDR vs SDR.

While I am probably in the small minority, 8K is of zero interest to me. But it will eventually be here and when it is, either the Lumagen will need to upgraded to handle it or there will need to be Lumagen Radiance Pro II. But I won't need to worry about that.


----------



## Tom Bley

audioguy said:


> In my own experience (~13 feet from a 10" wide screen), the differences between properly shot 1080P and 4K PALE in comparison to the advantages of HDR vs SDR.


You could probably get away with 480p with that distance and screen size.


----------



## giomania

sjschaff said:


> Anyone out there with an Nvidia Shield TV, who is attempting to play source *files that are HDR*, through the Lumagen?
> 
> 
> 
> When I try to do so, I find that the advanced HDMI settings in the Nvidia, though they present an option for *YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709*, never let me "keep" this setting. It reverts back to YUV 422 8-bit Rec. 709. Using OK button on the Lumagen remote shows that the source colorspace and Lumagen are different. Input shows RGB-HDR709 and output 422-SDR2020. By the way, this is for using CMS1 for all HDR source. Also, not using Auto-Convert for either CMS0 or CMS1.
> 
> 
> 
> The only way I can get this option in the Nvidia to "stick" is to alter the Lumagen Pro's input setting for the Nvidia. The specific setting is Video Limit. Changing from 9ghz or 9ghz Max to 1080p has the Lumagen working with the Nvidia to allow a set of options, which includes the color space I tried to pick. When I now pick the YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 the Nvidia suddenly asks if I want to keep it. I say yes, and now find that when I return to the advanced HDMI settings the "current" setting has been updated to reflect the change. Lumagen OK button now shows for input 422-HDR2020 and output 422-SDR2020 while playing HDR source. So, this all seems to suggest some sort of limitation or disagreement in the Nvidia with the Lumagen or configuration problem on my part in either/both devices.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I have enabled colorimetry in the Nvidia via the developer options, as described in prior posts for Nvidia Shield for colorspace switching.
> 
> 
> Also, if anyone is using the 18 ghz cards in the Lumagen along with the Shield does this combination allow for 422 12-bit Rec 709 to work on the Nvidia?


I have a shield and 18 GHz input and output cards, so I can provide some feedback. However, I am confused why you are attempting to use YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 for HDR files (which I assume are 4K HDR). Did you mean to type "SDR files" instead of "HDR files"?

Mark


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> Got a chance to do some A/B-ing with the latest DTM firmware. LOVE it. Great upgrade to my video chain.
> 
> I have a few folks who might be prospective Lumagen clients and would like to give them a demo comparing with and without DTM engaged.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a movie and scene that makes the comparison obvious even to the untrained eye, so that I don't have to search through a gazillion movies to find a few good examples.
> 
> Thanks


Maybe these scenes for setting up would be of use? Please forgive the formatting issues.

1)	Mad Max Fury Road™ (2015)	Max Mon = 4000, MaxCLL = 9919
▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:28:37	Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
▪	Examples of extremely bright (specular) highlights.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:28:29	Sand Storm: Car exploding in the air.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:28:37	Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:38:13 Muzzle flash; a couple pixels in the 4400 Nit range.
•	Chapter 11 / 1:46.59	Sunset in the desert.

2)	The Martian™ (2015) Max Mon = 1100, MaxCLL = 0
▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
•	Chapter 02 / 0:33:35	Storm approaching.
•	Chapter 21 / 1:19:08	Large setting sun with character sitting on a rock.
•	Chapter 24 / 1:37:35	Sun peeking around dark mountains.

3)	The Magnificent 7™ (2016)	Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = ????
▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
•	Chapter 3 / 0:12:01	Horseback rider cresting hill with sun in the background.
•	MaxCLL = 1113, MaxY = 1752
•	Chapter 03 / 0:16:00	Dimly lit bar with bright windows & doorway in the background.	

4)	Blade Runner 2049 (2018)	Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = 480
▪	A very dark movie with a MaxCLL = 480 Nits (Disc metadata incorrectly reports 182 Nits)


----------



## sjschaff

giomania said:


> I have a shield and 18 GHz input and output cards, so I can provide some feedback. However, I am confused why you are attempting to use YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 for HDR files (which I assume are 4K HDR). Did you mean to type "SDR files" instead of "HDR files"?
> 
> Mark


I only have 9ghz cards in my Lumagen Pro. Kris Deering came by a few months ago to calibrate my Lumagen Pro to JVC RS500 setup. I will caution that we did not work on the Nvidia source at all. Just used UHD discs on my Panasonic 900 and previous JVC settings performed by another calibrator.

The reason for the particular setting is that I received this information from Kris. The recommendations came from a friend of his, as settings to use for the Nvidia Shield. 

Here are the full details I received:

In the NVidia Shield Settings Menu:
1) Set the default GUI resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Resolution > Set to 4K 59.940 Hz.
2) Set the default color space and resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Advanced Settings > HDMI Settings > Choose 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709.
3) Next enable developers options: Go to - Settings > About > Build > Click seven times on build to become a developer (you will see a toast which will say you are now a developer).
4) Set color space switching: Go to - Settings > Developer Options > Colorimetry (set toggle to ON) > restart the NVidia Shield for changes to take effect. Colorimetry is under “HDMI” and is pretty far down the menu, there are a lot of options before it.
5) Restart the NVidia Shield.

In The Kodi Settings Menu:
1) Set Kodi to “Expert” mode: Go to - Settings > System > Click on the gear icon at the bottom of the list until it shows “Expert.”
2) Set Kodi to resolution switching: Go to - Settings > System > Display > Whitelist and then enable ALL of the resolutions displayed. Click “OK.”

Your experience and thoughts on this are appreciated. I can obviously also provide any other Lumagen settings or Nvidia as well, beyond what you see above. My communication with JRP suggests that the Lumagen is configurable to handle most anything and that it may well be a fault with the Nvidia at possibly a hardware level in complying with spec.


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

jabz said:


> Awesome thanks for the detailed write up will try this out.
> One note however the cables I'm using are as follows:
> 
> Monoprice SlimRun Fiber Optic AV HDR Cable 20m
> Monoprice Certified Premium High Speed HDMI cable - 1.8m
> 
> Do I really need to change cables?


A year or so ago, @jrp recommends Tributaries for 6-10ft lengths and RUIPRO for longer lengths. @jrp recommendation at that time had to do with how the cable handled the sharpness of the digitized waveforms associated with the Lumagen Pro (very fast rise times) ... and these cables handled them the best. Not sure if @jrp recommendation applied to both LPro's input and output, but I applied it to both input and output. 

People on this thread have also had good luck with monoprice and blue jeans cables ... don't have those cables.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> DTM does a really good job with titles mastered at 1000 nits. But the more titles I watch that are mastered at >=4000 nits the more issues I notice.
> 
> How do you set the parameters for The MEG for example to prevent the picture from looking overexposed and flat and highlights from being totally clipped?
> It's the same issue I noticed with the scene from Magnificent Seven I posted some time ago. Display Max Light set to 1800 improves the picture at the cost of general brightness in darker scenes and 1000 nits titles being unwatchable.
> 
> I downgraded to Beta 011119. And at least the higlights looked a little bit better than with the current Beta.
> 
> I hope this will be addressed with the upcoming version.


Karl, for what it’s worth I don’t have any clipping issues in that Magnificent 7 scene with DTM on. I am a couple of FW behind at 021219:










Do you have time stamps for The Meg and we can compare those too? Thanks


----------



## KarlKlammer

Wookii said:


> Karl, for what it’s worth I don’t have any clipping issues in that Magnificent 7 scene with DTM on. I am a couple of FW behind at 021219:
> Do you have time stamps for The Meg and we can compare those too? Thanks



Thanks for the screenshot. This looks OK to me. Which value did you set for Display Max Light?
If I remember it correctly, this is how it looked with 011119. But I have to check it again this weekend to be sure. 



With The MEG, I have four examples:


00:18-00:20 -> Clipping
01:13 -> Clipping in red background
05:23 -> overexposed (too bright)
05:56 -> overexposed (too bright)



I have seen these issues in two different installations with different settings (my own and at a friend).



I attached four screenshots from VLC. They are just for illustration and not actually projected. I try to get some projected screenshots this weekend.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> Thanks for the screenshot. This looks OK to me. Which value did you set for Display Max Light?
> If I remember it correctly, this is how it looked with 011119. But I have to check it again this weekend to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> With The MEG, I have four examples:
> 
> 
> 00:18-00:20 -> Clipping
> 01:13 -> Clipping in red background
> 05:23 -> overexposed (too bright)
> 05:56 -> overexposed (too bright)
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen these issues in two different installations with different settings (my own and at a friend).
> 
> 
> 
> I attached four screenshots from VLC. They are just for illustration and not actually projected. I try to get some projected screenshots this weekend.


I have DML on 600, approx 150nits measured peak.

I will try and check those Meg shots tomorrow evening. When you say those screen shots are from VLC - do you mean they are grabbed from the source file?


----------



## KarlKlammer

Wookii said:


> I have DML on 600, approx 150nits measured peak.
> 
> I will try and check those Meg shots tomorrow evening. When you say those screen shots are from VLC - do you mean they are grabbed from the source file?



Yes, they are just grabbed from the source.
I have about 120 nits measured peak and used to set my DML to 700.
In the other installation I saw, DML was set to 300 (with 70 nits peak). The other settings were left to standard. That was even worse.


----------



## Lasalle

Htnut2000 said:


> I have been having similar issues but cant pinpoint exactly which version started this. It seems to me that the recent firmware is more sensitive to cables.
> 
> I have talked to Jim and he believes it is an HDMI cable issue.
> 
> I have ordered Tributary 2m cables and a Ruipro 20m cable to replace my existing cables and hope that that solves the problem.
> 
> HDMI is such a pain!


I have several 2M Tributaries and a 25m Ruipro, they work flawlessly and I never have a handshake issue with them.


----------



## uderman

bobof said:


> uderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any room left on the fpga for 8K upscaling? I think 8K TVs will be very common in 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Which Lumagen Pro are you thinking of? I'm sure the 424x architecture only has a maximum of 18gbps simultaneous IO bandwidth which I think falls short for any of the 8K formats, so I don't think there is any possibility of those units going much above 4K.
> 
> I believe there is some chance the 444x could have input / output cards spanning two slots (4 ports) that could support 8K in and out.
Click to expand...

I don’t think 8K input will be necessary for a long time but 8K output. There are some 8K tvs already and in two years I believe all high end models will be 8K with hdmi 2.1.


----------



## sjschaff

giomania said:


> I have a shield and 18 GHz input and output cards, so I can provide some feedback. However, I am confused why you are attempting to use YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 for HDR files (which I assume are 4K HDR). Did you mean to type "SDR files" instead of "HDR files"?
> 
> Mark


What are the settings you are using for the Nvidia Shield? Are you using Kodi or another app for playback? When playing an HDR file what does the OK button on the Lumagen indicate?


----------



## jabz

Carbon Ft Print said:


> A year or so ago, @jrp recommends Tributaries for 6-10ft lengths and RUIPRO for longer lengths. @jrp





Lasalle said:


> I have several 2M Tributaries and a 25m Ruipro, they work flawlessly and I never have a handshake issue with them.


Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Thanks for the screenshot. This looks OK to me. Which value did you set for Display Max Light?
> If I remember it correctly, this is how it looked with 011119. But I have to check it again this weekend to be sure.
> 
> With The MEG, I have four examples:
> 
> 00:18-00:20 -> Clipping
> 01:13 -> Clipping in red background
> 05:23 -> overexposed (too bright)
> 05:56 -> overexposed (too bright)
> 
> I have seen these issues in two different installations with different settings (my own and at a friend).
> 
> I attached four screenshots from VLC. They are just for illustration and not actually projected. I try to get some projected screenshots this weekend.


First, thanks for the report. We will look into these further, but I checked these on my Pro/RS4500 to see what is going on.

00:18: The Sunburst is very bright. I do not see what I would call "clipping." I checked the max brightness of the scene and the internal "MaxCLL" calculated by the Pro for the scene looks good and is a bit higher than the brightest pixels (which are near white and so MaxY is larger than MaxCLL). There are some significant transitions in the Sunburst. The center of the burst is in the 3000 nit range. Where it transitions to what I would call the start of the corona is about 650 nits. If you have a 100 nit projector this range *must* be compressed. While the Pro output is not clipping, the input to output transfer function slope is very shallow for the Sunburst center to corona. But it is not "Clipping" IMO.

If you have a projector with a limited internal bit depth you might see clipping. The Sony 5000 internally truncates to 8-bits as the data enters the "DCI projector" portion of the light engine. This limited bit depth could show some clipping in this scene (and others). If you have such a projector try setting the Pro output dither to 8-bit and see if this reduces the clipping you are seeing. The dither should help with clipping if a projector truncates to 8-bits internal because the Pro will have adapted the data for an 8-bit projector pipeline.

01:13: I do see clipping in the red on the right shoulder of the person's protective suit. I checked the data and looks to be a fully saturated red. So this is at the full Rec 2020 Gamut extent for red and while the RS4500 is a great projector it cannot show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red and so will clip at its Gamut limit. I checked the calculated MaxCLL for the scene and it again looks good. To see if the issue is Dynamic Tone Mapping, or just projector color clipping, I would need a display that can show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red. I suspect the clipping is the projector Gamut limitation and not a DTM limitation. Can't be sure though. 

Is your projector capable of a fully saturated Rec 2020 red? I don't know of any consumer projectors or displays that can, but if someone has one they can check this scene and let us know the results.

05:23 and 05:56: The clouds do look brighter than in Static Tone Mapping (STM) mode. I looked at the levels and the clouds are in the 1000 to 1500 nit range, and other than the light at the lower right (for 05:23) the rest of the scenes are below 700 nits with most under 500 nits, and the ocean is about 200 nits (at 05:23). So the clouds *should* be very bright and IMO are correct in the DTM and too dark with STM. That said we are already looking into the brightness of clouds in another scene in the Meg (about 58:05, MEG's fin in water) to see if we can get more detail. However, given how bright the clouds are they are in the "shallow slope" portion of the transfer function for projectors and so will lose some detail. I think this is also true in real life. Go out on a very bright day with clouds in the distance directly lit by the Sun and I think you will not be able to make out much detail due to how bright the clouds are.

So I have to say I do not think the clouds are over exposed. We are checking this in the the lab to see if these can be improved.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> First, thanks for the report. We will look into these further, but I checked these on my Pro/RS4500 to see what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 00:18: The Sunburst is very bright. I do not see what I would call "clipping." I checked the max brightness of the scene and the internal "MaxCLL" calculated by the Pro for the scene looks good and is a bit higher than the brightest pixels (which are near white and so MaxY is larger than MaxCLL). There are some significant transitions in the Sunburst. The center of the burst is in the 3000 nit range. Where it transitions to what I would call the start of the corona is about 650 nits. If you have a 100 nit projector this range *must* be compressed. While the Pro output is not clipping, the input to output transfer function slope is very shallow for the Sunburst center to corona. But it is not "Clipping" IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a projector with a limited internal bit depth you might see clipping. The Sony 5000 internally truncates to 8-bits as the data enters the "DCI projector" portion of the light engine. This limited bit depth could show some clipping in this scene (and others). If you have such a projector try setting the Pro output dither to 8-bit and see if this reduces the clipping you are seeing. The dither should help with clipping if a projector truncates to 8-bits internal because the Pro will have adapted the data for an 8-bit projector pipeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 01:13: I do see clipping in the red on the right shoulder of the person's protective suit. I checked the data and looks to be a fully saturated red. So this is at the full Rec 2020 Gamut extent for red and while the RS4500 is a great projector it cannot show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red and so will clip at its Gamut limit. I checked the calculated MaxCLL for the scene and it again looks good. To see if the issue is Dynamic Tone Mapping, or just projector color clipping, I would need a display that can show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red. I suspect the clipping is the projector Gamut limitation and not a DTM limitation. Can't be sure though.
> 
> 
> 
> Is your projector capable of a fully saturated Rec 2020 red? I don't know of any consumer projectors or displays that can, but if someone has one they can check this scene and let us know the results.
> 
> 
> 
> 05:23 and 05:56: The clouds do look brighter than in Static Tone Mapping (STM) mode. I looked at the levels and the clouds are in the 1000 to 1500 nit range, and other than the light at the lower right (for 05:23) the rest of the scenes are below 700 nits with most under 500 nits, and the ocean is about 200 nits (at 05:23). So the clouds *should* be very bright and IMO are correct in the DTM and too dark with STM. That said we are already looking into the brightness of clouds in another scene in the Meg (about 58:05, MEG's fin in water) to see if we can get more detail. However, given how bright the clouds are they are in the "shallow slope" portion of the transfer function for projectors and so will lose some detail. I think this is also true in real life. Go out on a very bright day with clouds in the distance directly lit by the Sun and I think you will not be able to make out much detail due to how bright the clouds are.
> 
> 
> 
> So I have to say I do not think the clouds are over exposed. We are checking this in the the lab to see if these can be improved.




I check the 01:13 scene with DTM On and OFF in this scene as u said and I am not expert like u jim the pipe in the back ground not show 










and when I turn OFF the DTM it become more visible 










Hope this will help to improve

Thx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

jabz said:


> Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.


For 2 to 3 meter passive HDMI I recommend the Tributaries UHDP. Note that the Ethereal Velox, and the Monoprice 18 GHz certified are also very good, but I like the mechanical design of the UHDP better.

For long runs I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" active cable (but with a 3 Amp power cube rather than the 1 Amp provided). The RUIPRO (on USA amazon.com) also work well. We have one or two cases where one of these worked and the other didn't. So there is no sure thing as far as HDMI is concerned.

====== 

We have perhaps two reports of people having issues with 042119. Since this has a new FPGA load it is possible some FPGA's might not "like" the FPGA load for 042119. The FPGA synthesis and timing tools are good but not perfect and from our experience they can say the FPGA load meets timing but there might be one to two FPGA's in the field that "disagree."

To see if this the case for your system you can revert to an earlier release with a different FPGA load. Look for a release before the note says the release will take "about 5 minutes" to update. If a release uses the same FPGA as the previous release the time will say about a minute. If the release has a new FPGA then it will say "about 5 minutes."

NOTE: If you have an issue with 042119, I think it is more likely to be a HDMI cable needing to be replaced with a better cable. Each FPGA load will vary the output very slightly. Still within spec but ever so slightly different. If this minor difference causes an issue then as I like to say "you fell of the HDMI cliff." No way to know which without testing.

Also, sometimes a cable will get bumped during an update and cause random issues. I have helped a number of people restore function in their system just by having them unplug and re-plug each end of every HDMI cable five times (after removing wall power). In fact I just had this happen in our Lumagen Demo Theater. One plug was out by about 1/16 of an inch. I had even felt the connectors to make sure they were inserted but one was not and I initially missed it. I pushed the plug into the Radiance Pro the rest of the way and now everything is working again.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Thank you for your post, Jim!
I would have reported this via mail. But as I didn't get a reply to my previous report for Magnificent Seven, I think my address is blocked (again) or the mail got lost somehow.
I will try to get some actual pictures in the next days. Hopefully I can capture the issues, which isn't always easy with HDR.



jrp said:


> First, thanks for the report. We will look into these further, but I checked these on my Pro/RS4500 to see what is going on.
> 
> 00:18: The Sunburst is very bright. I do not see what I would call "clipping." I checked the max brightness of the scene and the internal "MaxCLL" calculated by the Pro for the scene looks good and is a bit higher than the brightest pixels (which are near white and so MaxY is larger than MaxCLL). There are some significant transitions in the Sunburst. The center of the burst is in the 3000 nit range. Where it transitions to what I would call the start of the corona is about 650 nits. If you have a 100 nit projector this range *must* be compressed. While the Pro output is not clipping, the input to output transfer function slope is very shallow for the Sunburst center to corona. But it is not "Clipping" IMO.
> 
> If you have a projector with a limited internal bit depth you might see clipping. The Sony 5000 internally truncates to 8-bits as the data enters the "DCI projector" portion of the light engine. This limited bit depth could show some clipping in this scene (and others). If you have such a projector try setting the Pro output dither to 8-bit and see if this reduces the clipping you are seeing. The dither should help with clipping if a projector truncates to 8-bits internal because the Pro will have adapted the data for an 8-bit projector pipeline.


It is not the sunburst or corona, that I am concerned about in this scene. It is the loss of detail in the lower part of the image. I can't distinguish the 'crystals' from the ground or the sunburst anymore. 
I would think that my JVC NX9/RS3000 would be capable of processing more than 8bit internally.



> 01:13: I do see clipping in the red on the right shoulder of the person's protective suit. I checked the data and looks to be a fully saturated red. So this is at the full Rec 2020 Gamut extent for red and while the RS4500 is a great projector it cannot show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red and so will clip at its Gamut limit. I checked the calculated MaxCLL for the scene and it again looks good. To see if the issue is Dynamic Tone Mapping, or just projector color clipping, I would need a display that can show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red. I suspect the clipping is the projector Gamut limitation and not a DTM limitation. Can't be sure though.
> 
> Is your projector capable of a fully saturated Rec 2020 red? I don't know of any consumer projectors or displays that can, but if someone has one they can check this scene and let us know the results.


When I raise Display Max Light, I can see cables or pipes appearing in the red background on the left.
The NX9 is not capable of displaying full saturated BT.2020 red. It mostly reaches DCI-P3.



> 05:23 and 05:56: The clouds do look brighter than in Static Tone Mapping (STM) mode. I looked at the levels and the clouds are in the 1000 to 1500 nit range, and other than the light at the lower right (for 05:23) the rest of the scenes are below 700 nits with most under 500 nits, and the ocean is about 200 nits (at 05:23). So the clouds *should* be very bright and IMO are correct in the DTM and too dark with STM. That said we are already looking into the brightness of clouds in another scene in the Meg (about 58:05, MEG's fin in water) to see if we can get more detail. However, given how bright the clouds are they are in the "shallow slope" portion of the transfer function for projectors and so will lose some detail. I think this is also true in real life. Go out on a very bright day with clouds in the distance directly lit by the Sun and I think you will not be able to make out much detail due to how bright the clouds are.
> 
> So I have to say I do not think the clouds are over exposed. We are checking this in the the lab to see if these can be improved.


I feel the image looks too flat in these scenes. Raising Display Max Light gives the ocean a more pronounced appearance and also helps to give the image more depth.


----------



## Lasalle

jabz said:


> Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.


The 2m cables are Tributaries UHD Pro's.


----------



## audioguy

Tom Bley said:


> You could probably get away with 480p with that distance and screen size.


Oops !!


----------



## audioguy

giomania said:


> Maybe these scenes for setting up would be of use? Please forgive the formatting issues.
> 
> 1)	Mad Max Fury Road™ (2015)	Max Mon = 4000, MaxCLL = 9919
> ▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
> •	Chapter 03 / 0:28:37	Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
> ▪	Examples of extremely bright (specular) highlights.
> •	Chapter 03 / 0:28:29	Sand Storm: Car exploding in the air.
> •	Chapter 03 / 0:28:37	Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
> •	Chapter 03 / 0:38:13 Muzzle flash; a couple pixels in the 4400 Nit range.
> •	Chapter 11 / 1:46.59	Sunset in the desert.
> 
> 2)	The Martian™ (2015) Max Mon = 1100, MaxCLL = 0
> ▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
> •	Chapter 02 / 0:33:35	Storm approaching.
> •	Chapter 21 / 1:19:08	Large setting sun with character sitting on a rock.
> •	Chapter 24 / 1:37:35	Sun peeking around dark mountains.
> 
> 3)	The Magnificent 7™ (2016)	Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = ????
> ▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
> •	Chapter 3 / 0:12:01	Horseback rider cresting hill with sun in the background.
> •	MaxCLL = 1113, MaxY = 1752
> •	Chapter 03 / 0:16:00	Dimly lit bar with bright windows & doorway in the background.
> 
> 4)	Blade Runner 2049 (2018)	Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = 480
> ▪	A very dark movie with a MaxCLL = 480 Nits (Disc metadata incorrectly reports 182 Nits)


Thanks. I very much appreciate the effort to give the specifics. I will check these out.


----------



## bobof

As I say the 424x is 18G limited in both directions. I think the only way you could get to 8k out from 4k source in those units would be if the output card itself had a scaler on board.

In any case, as others have pointed out I can't see this being of much importance any time soon if ever, at almost any seating distance to consider that there will be much difference observable in different 4k to 8k scalers is I think going to be something only for those with Superman's eyesight...  

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

sjschaff said:


> Anyone out there with an Nvidia Shield TV, who is attempting to play source files that are HDR, through the Lumagen?
> 
> When I try to do so, I find that the advanced HDMI settings in the Nvidia, though they present an option for YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709, never let me "keep" this setting. It reverts back to YUV 422 8-bit Rec. 709. Using OK button on the Lumagen remote shows that the source colorspace and Lumagen are different. Input shows RGB-HDR709 and output 422-SDR2020. By the way, this is for using CMS1 for all HDR source. Also, not using Auto-Convert for either CMS0 or CMS1.
> 
> The only way I can get this option in the Nvidia to "stick" is to alter the Lumagen Pro's input setting for the Nvidia. The specific setting is Video Limit. Changing from 9ghz or 9ghz Max to 1080p has the Lumagen working with the Nvidia to allow a set of options, which includes the color space I tried to pick. When I now pick the YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 the Nvidia suddenly asks if I want to keep it. I say yes, and now find that when I return to the advanced HDMI settings the "current" setting has been updated to reflect the change. Lumagen OK button now shows for input 422-HDR2020 and output 422-SDR2020 while playing HDR source. So, this all seems to suggest some sort of limitation or disagreement in the Nvidia with the Lumagen or configuration problem on my part in either/both devices.
> 
> By the way, I have enabled colorimetry in the Nvidia via the developer options, as described in prior posts for Nvidia Shield for colorspace switching.
> 
> Also, if anyone is using the 18 ghz cards in the Lumagen along with the Shield does this combination allow for 422 12-bit Rec 709 to work on the Nvidia?





giomania said:


> I have a shield and 18 GHz input and output cards, so I can provide some feedback. However, I am confused why you are attempting to use YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 for HDR files (which I assume are 4K HDR). Did you mean to type "SDR files" instead of "HDR files"?
> 
> Mark





sjschaff said:


> I only have 9ghz cards in my Lumagen Pro. Kris Deering came by a few months ago to calibrate my Lumagen Pro to JVC RS500 setup. I will caution that we did not work on the Nvidia source at all. Just used UHD discs on my Panasonic 900 and previous JVC settings performed by another calibrator.
> 
> The reason for the particular setting is that I received this information from Kris. The recommendations came from a friend of his, as settings to use for the Nvidia Shield.
> 
> Here are the full details I received:
> 
> In the NVidia Shield Settings Menu:
> 1) Set the default GUI resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Resolution > Set to 4K 59.940 Hz. *This was the setting on my Shield TV*.
> 2) Set the default color space and resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Advanced Settings > HDMI Settings > Choose 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709. *When I changed this, there was an HDMI sync and a message asking if wanted to keep this setting. My Shield was set to 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 2020, which was also the recommended setting.*
> 3) Next enable developers options: Go to - Settings > About > Build > Click seven times on build to become a developer (you will see a toast which will say you are now a developer).
> 4) Set color space switching: Go to - Settings > Developer Options > Colorimetry (set toggle to ON) > restart the NVidia Shield for changes to take effect. Colorimetry is under “HDMI” and is pretty far down the menu, there are a lot of options before it.
> 5) Restart the NVidia Shield. *I had already completed this process when I read about the option*.
> 
> In The Kodi Settings Menu:
> 1) Set Kodi to “Expert” mode: Go to - Settings > System > Click on the gear icon at the bottom of the list until it shows “Expert.”
> 2) Set Kodi to resolution switching: Go to - Settings > System > Display > Whitelist and then enable ALL of the resolutions displayed. Click “OK.” *I had to install and set up Kodi to point to my Network files (Ugh!), but I took one for the team and then completed both of these steps as well*.
> 
> Your experience and thoughts on this are appreciated. I can obviously also provide any other Lumagen settings or Nvidia as well, beyond what you see above. My communication with JRP suggests that the Lumagen is configurable to handle most anything and that it may well be a fault with the Nvidia at possibly a hardware level in complying with spec.





sjschaff said:


> What are the settings you are using for the Nvidia Shield? Are you using Kodi or another app for playback? When playing an HDR file what does the OK button on the Lumagen indicate?


I made notes above in bold where appropriate. I performed the test last night on my Nvidia Shield TV Pro, and my second display, an HDR-capable LG 55B7A OLED TV. The Lumagen Info showed the following:

For an SDR signal
Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
Input Format: 422-SDR709 Output Format: 422-SDR709 (I have this particular SDR CMS configured to output 422-SDR709)

For an HDR signal
Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
Input Format: 422-HDR2020 Output Format: 422-HDR2020 (I have this particular HDR CMS configured to output 422-HDR2020)

So for HDR, the input format did not honor the Shield TV setting of 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709, so I think that aligns with your experience. 

As I am typing up the results, I realized I should have confirmed my setting for MENU → Input → Options → HDMI Setup → Type. The options for this parameter are Auto (default), YCbCr 444, YCbCr 422, and RGB. I leave this set to the default of "Auto", unless the source device is not sending YCbCr 422, so I suspect this is set to Auto for this input. I am wondering if yours is set to RGB? Alternatively, could this be a limitation / issue with 9 GHz output with your HDMI cable?

I hope this helps.

Mark


----------



## Carbon Ft Print

jabz said:


> Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.


Tributaries purchased: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UXLIR6U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

RUIPRO purchased: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XGDFCSC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## uderman

bobof said:


> As I say the 424x is 18G limited in both directions. I think the only way you could get to 8k out from 4k source in those units would be if the output card itself had a scaler on board.
> 
> In any case, as others have pointed out I can't see this being of much importance any time soon if ever, at almost any seating distance to consider that there will be much difference observable in different 4k to 8k scalers is I think going to be something only for those with Superman's eyesight... /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


It matters for pixel matching. My favorite feature for all Lumagen products is no ringing scaling. To me it makes little sense to have Radiance does its best to make great 4K images then the TV takes over and molest it to make it 8K.

Flagship models for Samsung, Sony and LG (including Oleds) are 8K already now. In two years, expect middle of the road models to be all 8K as well. 

I agree on diminishing returns. I don’t believe 8K is enough returns if any. But if you want a very good display in the near future, it’s likely going to be 8K. Just like you can’t buy a good 1080p anymore as those are budget friendly models only.


----------



## sjschaff

giomania said:


> I made notes above in bold where appropriate. I performed the test last night on my Nvidia Shield TV Pro, and my second display, an HDR-capable LG 55B7A OLED TV. The Lumagen Info showed the following:
> 
> For an SDR signal
> Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
> Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
> Input Format: 422-SDR709 Output Format: 422-SDR709 (I have this particular SDR CMS configured to output 422-SDR709)
> 
> For an HDR signal
> Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
> Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
> Input Format: 422-HDR2020 Output Format: 422-HDR2020 (I have this particular HDR CMS configured to output 422-HDR2020)
> 
> So for HDR, the input format did not honor the Shield TV setting of 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709, so I think that aligns with your experience.
> 
> As I am typing up the results, I realized I should have confirmed my setting for MENU → Input → Options → HDMI Setup → Type. The options for this parameter are Auto (default), YCbCr 444, YCbCr 422, and RGB. I leave this set to the default of "Auto", unless the source device is not sending YCbCr 422, so I suspect this is set to Auto for this input. I am wondering if yours is set to RGB? Alternatively, could this be a limitation / issue with 9 GHz output with your HDMI cable?
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Mark



Thanks. I think you're right about the 9gzh vs. 18ghz since this would appear to be the only hardware difference in our mutual systems. The only other Lumagen setting that I see which may or may not have an affect on things is:
Input...In Configs...4K...4K0...Picture...Colorspace which had been set to Auto. When I changed this to Rec2020 the only result was that the OK button, while playing HDR content, changed to 420 HDR2020 on the input. So, while still keeping the Lumagen's input setting for Video Limit a 9ghz Max, and altering the above Colorspace setting, the resulting OK Format for Input shows 420-HDR2020. But none of this affects my ability to alter the Nvidia's Colorspace setting. And, as expected, switching the SDR to HDR profile on the JVC that had been set up by Kris simply screwed up the color. Obviously oversaturated.


By the way, what display/projector are you currently using? In speaking with Jim Peterson his belief, at least with my current JVC RS500, is that the Lumagen does a far better job of managing output for tone mapping, among other things, so that putting out SDR2020 is best. Finally, I've started the ball rolling on ordering up an 18ghz card for the Lumagen.


----------



## giomania

sjschaff said:


> Thanks. I think you're right about the 9gzh vs. 18ghz since this would appear to be the only hardware difference in our mutual systems. The only other Lumagen setting that I see which may or may not have an affect on things is:
> Input...In Configs...4K...4K0...Picture...Colorspace which had been set to Auto. When I changed this to Rec2020 the only result was that the OK button, while playing HDR content, changed to 420 HDR2020 on the input. So, while still keeping the Lumagen's input setting for Video Limit a 9ghz Max, and altering the above Colorspace setting, the resulting OK Format for Input shows 420-HDR2020. But none of this affects my ability to alter the Nvidia's Colorspace setting. And, as expected, switching the SDR to HDR profile on the JVC that had been set up by Kris simply screwed up the color. Obviously oversaturated.
> 
> 
> By the way, what display/projector are you currently using? In speaking with Jim Peterson his belief, at least with my current JVC RS500, is that the Lumagen does a far better job of managing output for tone mapping, among other things, so that putting out SDR2020 is best. Finally, I've started the ball rolling on ordering up an 18ghz card for the Lumagen.


That makes sense that you could only pass 4:2:0, as that is at the 9 GHz limit for 3840 x 2160 resolution:










I am using a JVC RS540 with a 1D & 3D LUT calibration with an SDR2020 output for HDR sources.

I would still like to know from @Kris Deering why the Shield is set to output Rec. 709 vice Rec. 2020.

Mark


----------



## Kris Deering

giomania said:


> That makes sense that you could only pass 4:2:0, as that is at the 9 GHz limit for 3840 x 2160 resolution:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am using a JVC RS540 with a 1D & 3D LUT calibration with an SDR2020 output for HDR sources.
> 
> I would still like to know from @Kris Deering why the Shield is set to output Rec. 709 vice Rec. 2020.
> 
> Mark


As Steve already mentioned, I did NOT setup the Shield. I told Steve that I have very limited experience with the Shield and that every time I have worked with one it has been nothing but problems due to the Shield's main setup giving you ZERO ability to just set a native output. I referred his questions to someone else that has a Shield that said he got it working well with his Radiance and gave him those settings.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Kris Deering said:


> As Steve already mentioned, I did NOT setup the Shield. I told Steve that I have very limited experience with the Shield and that every time I have worked with one it has been nothing but problems due to the Shield's main setup giving you ZERO ability to just set a native output. I referred his questions to someone else that has a Shield that said he got it working well with his Radiance and gave him those settings.


I have a shield working but yes it has issues with native playback but there are some work arounds.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I have a shield working but yes it has issues with native playback but there are some work arounds.


I really like the Shield/Plex combination but was getting ready to sell it since I can't turn off the upscaling that is does on 1080P material. So you have a work-around? If so, would you mind sharing it?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

audioguy said:


> I really like the Shield/Plex combination but was getting ready to sell it since I can't turn off the upscaling that is does on 1080P material. So you have a work-around? If so, would you mind sharing it?


In regards the uspcale there are no workaround but there is in regards the frame rate switch and in Kodi, I don't use Pleslx. At the moment the most reliable and proven android box is x9s or any ZIDOO box based on the same chip. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> Thank you for your post, Jim!
> 1) It is not the sunburst or corona, that I am concerned about in this scene. It is the loss of detail in the lower part of the image. I can't distinguish the 'crystals' from the ground or the sunburst anymore.
> 
> 2) I would think that my JVC NX9/RS3000 would be capable of processing more than 8bit internally.
> 
> 3) When I raise Display Max Light, I can see cables or pipes appearing in the red background on the left.
> 
> 4) The NX9 is not capable of displaying full saturated BT.2020 red. It mostly reaches DCI-P3.
> 
> 5) I feel the image looks too flat in these scenes. Raising Display Max Light gives the ocean a more pronounced appearance and also helps to give the image more depth.



It looks like from one of your screen shots you are not on the latest (042119). I suggest you update to 042119 and see if there is any improvement (which there should be).

I should also note that I am on a pre-release of the new Dynamic Tone Mapping algorithm with the improved low to high blend. This could be part of the difference you are seeing. I could revert to 042119 but I am a bit lazy tonight. Maybe later if I get pushed to do it and test again. Just note that what I am evaluating is what will be available soon in a new release.

1) 00:18 of The Meg: I don't feel I have loss in detail for the crystals versus the surface. I took a picture to post here. I hate posting these types of pictures as they seem to never be as good as the image on the screen, but I think this shows that the crystal detail remains. I will put the pictures in another post so they do not propagate with any responses.

2) 01:13 of The Meg: While we are going to look further at this scene, I can see the detail on the wall behind the man on our RS4500. It looks like one might expect looking through a haze. The fact that you cannot see this detail could be a setting issue, or something about your setup. I took a picture of this as well but it did not come out as well as I hoped. Will post it in another post as well. NOTE: I do agree we should look at this scene and hopefully improve it. 

05:23 and 05:56 of The Meg: As I mentioned these scenes are very similar to a scene we already have on the "tune up" list. So hopefully we can carve out some more detail.

The internal pipeline precision of the nx9/RS3000 (and nx7/RS2000) and RS4500) are all excellent and exhibit none of the banding issues we have seen in other brands.

3) Sounds like you might need to have a higher setting for Display Max Light if increasing it improves these pictures. The nx9 has a 2100 lumen rating. Depending on your screen size, gain, whether you have an anamorphic lens and if it is perforated/weave, you should likely have a Display Max Light around 400 maybe higher. For our 3000 lumen RS4500 on a 14 foot diagonal 2.4 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130 I have Display Max Light set to 400.

4) So like our RS4500 the fully saturated Rec 2020 red at 1:13 will get clipped and affect the image.

5) Again sounds like you might want to use the higher Display Max Light.

Everything about Dynamic Tone Mapping is a balancing act. We want each scene to be as bright as it can be, but that can mean less detail in highlights. You can use Static Tone mapping which will give you more detail in the sky, but a significantly darker over-all brightness for the movie. Or use DTM and have each scene optimized - which is a trade off of highlight detail (e.g. the clouds), and the brightness of the main portion of the image.

For the clouds at 05:23 and 05:56, I agree that they are too bright and we will see if we can tone them down (pun intended) a bit. We will look at the saturated red haze as 01:30 as well. I really don't see any issues in the scene at 00:18, but we can look into that as well and see if we can improve it. 

Thanks again for the feedback. Dynamic Tone Mapping is, as I have said, a work in progress and everyone's feedback can help us continue to improve it.

Pictures in my next post.


----------



## jrp

Here are photos promised in my previous post. These are The Meg at 00:18 (Sunburst and crystals in ground) and then 01:13 (person in protective suit with red haze). These were taken with my iPhone. They are as downloaded from the phone except I reduced the resolution for posting.

Pictures are not as good as what I see on the screen but I think are helpful.

If anyone needs help setting up HDR Tone Mapping in the Pro, please email our support email or call us (503-574-2211 Option 2).


----------



## KarlKlammer

Thank you again for looking into this.



jrp said:


> It looks like from one of your screen shots you are not on the latest (042119). I suggest you update to 042119 and see if there is any improvement (which there should be).
> 
> I should also note that I am on a pre-release of the new Dynamic Tone Mapping algorithm with the improved low to high blend. This could be part of the difference you are seeing. I could revert to 042119 but I am a bit lazy tonight. Maybe later if I get pushed to do it and test again. Just note that what I am evaluating is what will be available soon in a new release.


I am on the latest available release (042119). The screen shots were taken from the source to illustrate which scenes I am talking about. There was no Radiance involved.



> 3) Sounds like you might need to have a higher setting for Display Max Light if increasing it improves these pictures. The nx9 has a 2100 lumen rating. Depending on your screen size, gain, whether you have an anamorphic lens and if it is perforated/weave, you should likely have a Display Max Light around 400 maybe higher. For our 3000 lumen RS4500 on a 14 foot diagonal 2.4 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130 I have Display Max Light set to 400.
> 
> 4) So like our RS4500 the fully saturated Rec 2020 red at 1:13 will get clipped and affect the image.
> 
> 5) Again sounds like you might want to use the higher Display Max Light.


I currently have 120-130 nits peak luminance available. For Intensity Mapping I set Display Max Light to 700. This in combination with the other parameters worked so well, that I didn't have to adjust a single parameter for a year.

With DTM and titles mastered with 1000 nits there is hardly an issue. So it seems that my settings for Intensity mapping also work for DTM and those titles. But that changes with higher mastered titels.
I can set Display Max Light to 1800, Ratio to 15 and Gamma to -3 for the scenes to look good. But then I'm in trouble in other scenes. You are right. It is a question of balance to find the right parameters. I don't mind to make some compromises for a general good result as I want to watch movies and not stills.
What I don't want is to apply settings by title. If that were the consequence, I would have to go back to Intensity Mapping.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> Thanks for the screenshot. This looks OK to me. Which value did you set for Display Max Light?
> If I remember it correctly, this is how it looked with 011119. But I have to check it again this weekend to be sure.
> 
> With The MEG, I have four examples:
> 
> 00:18-00:20 -> Clipping
> 01:13 -> Clipping in red background
> 05:23 -> overexposed (too bright)
> 05:56 -> overexposed (too bright)
> 
> I have seen these issues in two different installations with different settings (my own and at a friend).
> 
> I attached four screenshots from VLC. They are just for illustration and not actually projected. I try to get some projected screenshots this weekend.


I managed to get time to test these scenes last night Karl. here are some screen grabs:

00:18 - I don't get any clipping on that scene as far as I can tell:










01:13:

I do get some clipping on the red back ground when I compare DTM on vs off. @jrp Jim, I'm not sure this is anything to do with gamut saturation, otherwise I assume the extra detail in the background would not be visible when you switch DTM off? Rather I assume it is the gradient of the slope at the top of the DTM curve that is causing the fine gradation in colour between the elements in that background to merge/clip:



















05:23 + 05:26 - I see what you are saying here Karl, these scenes do look overly bright and over saturated, but turning DTM off does not resolve any additional detail to me or make a massive amount of difference to the saturation, which leads me to think its inherent in the mastering perhaps - it's hard to tell comparing side by side with your VLC images on a non-HDR monitor, but the biggest difference on the 05:26 image appear to be a big difference in saturation?


----------



## KarlKlammer

Thank you very much for testing it, Wookie! 
I have a suspicion that my IM-parameters and the workflow I used to find them are no longer compatible with the way DTM works. I'm pretty sure that was not the case with the earlier releases. So I will take one or two steps back, start from scratch and see, what happens.

But I also don't think that the clipping in the red background is cause by the limited gamut.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> Thank you very much for testing it, Wookie!
> I have a suspicion that my IM-parameters and the workflow I used to find them are no longer compatible with the way DTM works. I'm pretty sure that was not the case with the earlier releases. So I will take one or two steps back, start from scratch and see, what happens.
> 
> But I also don't think that the clipping in the red background is cause by the limited gamut.


I've tried measuring DTM on a couple of occasions, and I have yet to come up with a workflow that produces repeatable results. I have up to now assumed it is do with how the scene detection works, that makes it difficult to measure with test patterns. Eventually I gave up.

Its also work bearing in mind that DTM utilises the full dynamic range of the display, so your gamma tracking in the 1D LUT at the top end (90%-100%) can probably result in big differences in highlight clipping like the examples we are looking at. (Not saying yours is incorrect, more that differences between calibrations could result in significant perceived differences in that highlight region - especially when you consider how much input range we are trying to display).

Its one of the reasons I'd like to see Lumagen implement a revised 1D LUT operation with greater resolution than 21 points (Jim mentioned 256 points previously) - I think it will help the accuracy of gradation at both he very top and bottom of the display range where they are most critical.


----------



## giomania

SoulOfUniverse said:


> In regards the uspcale there are no workaround but there is in regards the frame rate switch and in Kodi, I don't use Pleslx. At the moment the most reliable and proven android box is x9s or any ZIDOO box based on the same chip.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


Hmmm...I have an X9S that I haven't really used, so I should get that updated with current firmware and test it again. I just use my OPPO UDP-203 to serve my network files stored on the NAS.

Mark


----------



## sjschaff

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I have a shield working but yes it has issues with native playback but there are some work arounds.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


Seems that those who’ve gotten the Nvidia Shield and Lumagen Pro to work correctly are using 18 GHz input cards on the Lumagen. I am using Kodi on the Nvidia. Would love to know if the workarounds you are aware of might apply with my configuration.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Wookii said:


> I've tried measuring DTM on a couple of occasions, and I have yet to come up with a workflow that produces repeatable results. I have up to now assumed it is do with how the scene detection works, that makes it difficult to measure with test patterns. Eventually I gave up.
> 
> Its also work bearing in mind that DTM utilises the full dynamic range of the display, so your gamma tracking in the 1D LUT at the top end (90%-100%) can probably result in big differences in highlight clipping like the examples we are looking at. (Not saying yours is incorrect, more that differences between calibrations could result in significant perceived differences in that highlight region - especially when you consider how much input range we are trying to display).
> 
> Its one of the reasons I'd like to see Lumagen implement a revised 1D LUT operation with greater resolution than 21 points (Jim mentioned 256 points previously) - I think it will help the accuracy of gradation at both he very top and bottom of the display range where they are most critical.


My attempts at measuring DTM were repeatable, but not as I liked them to be. The result was always the same, regardless of the input.
With IM it was easy. You were able to use MENU 0533 to force a desired maxCLL, measure and adjust the parameters so that the transfer function worked as you wanted. I did this at 1000 and 4000 nits. And this got me where I wanted to be. I was of the impression that DTM only reuses these parameters in a different way.
I would like to have a way to measure what DTM does to avoid the guessing or uncertainty that things on screen should look like they do.

I haven't spent much time with calibration yet as I currently only have 22 hours on my second unit. So I just applied some LUTs based on QuickProfiles to get started. I'm not cancelling out the possibility that some aspects could be due to the calibration.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

giomania said:


> Hmmm...I have an X9S that I haven't really used, so I should get that updated with current firmware and test it again. I just use my OPPO UDP-203 to serve my network files stored on the NAS.
> 
> Mark


At the moment Zidoo is the only one box I know, which has great quality in playing back ripped 4k HDR movies, especially with the NAS setup. It plays via its own native player, which doesn't have issues in passing through the raw audio, also passing correct colorspace and HDR flag information with resolution and framerate.
The only downside is that you loose all the stat from the native KODI player, since you use ZDMC (fork of Kodi) to playback video files, it doesn't interact with Kodi library stats and you don't have those stats like how many movies you've watched, last saved bookmark and etc. Also ZIDOO boxes are not that fast, I wish they would be faster. 
Also I don't like that it doesn't have chromecast inbuilt and its Youtube application doesn't have a capability of 4K playback only 1080p. 
That's why I'm looking at alternatives, and NShield is the fastest Android box and yes it is fast, but they still got bugs in regards the native playback (resolution isn't switching natively and is always fixed). Also it has some instability in regards how the remote works, sometimes it doesn't respond at all.
As for Zidoo there been banding issues, but its been resolved with the latest firmware, I really compared the quality playback from OPPO UDP-203 and Zidoo X9S, and I couldn't tell any difference at all. So for the last 9 months I haven't used OPPO at all, all my movie library is served with nas416play 24TB .


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

sjschaff said:


> Seems that those who’ve gotten the Nvidia Shield and Lumagen Pro to work correctly are using 18 GHz input cards on the Lumagen. I am using Kodi on the Nvidia. Would love to know if the workarounds you are aware of might apply with my configuration.


1st issue I had were audio dropouts, very interminent and usually when I playback 4K SDR2020 from Youtube at @60. In Lumagen in input, HDMI settings I've choosen Audio EDID to select Common and apply to input you have your nshield and all memories.
2nd issue I had were Kodi didn't see all the formats avialable when I select audio passthrough, you have to select Surround Sound (Always) in Nvidia Shield settings.
3rd issue I had framerate didn't match the source file and always been selected the one you select in Nvidia output, in Kodi in Player settings there is an option Always Adjust/Change Framerate on Start/Stop I choose to Always. It will then playback all 4K content with its native framerate and all 1080p content with the framerate being doubled up. 
4th issue autoswitch the resolution still I haven't figured out how to resolve, Nvidia claims that they have exposed the API to change resolution and that its up to a software to control that, and they blame Kodi devs for not using it. Kodi with the latest 18.3 Leya RC build still have all resolutions hardcoded. 
Hope this helps, at the moment I still prefer my Zidoo instead of Shield, until they resolve all the issues.


----------



## sjschaff

SoulOfUniverse said:


> At the moment Zidoo is the only one box I know, which has great quality in playing back ripped 4k HDR movies, especially with the NAS setup. It plays via its own native player, which doesn't have issues in passing through the raw audio, also passing correct colorspace and HDR flag information with resolution and framerate.
> The only downside is that you loose all the stat from the native KODI player, since you use ZDMC (fork of Kodi) to playback video files, it doesn't interact with Kodi library stats and you don't have those stats like how many movies you've watched, last saved bookmark and etc. Also ZIDOO boxes are not that fast, I wish they would be faster.
> Also I don't like that it doesn't have chromecast inbuilt and its Youtube application doesn't have a capability of 4K playback only 1080p.
> That's why I'm looking at alternatives, and NShield is the fastest Android box and yes it is fast, but they still got bugs in regards the native playback (resolution isn't switching natively and is always fixed). Also it has some instability in regards how the remote works, sometimes it doesn't respond at all.
> As for Zidoo there been banding issues, but its been resolved with the latest firmware, I really compared the quality playback from OPPO UDP-203 and Zidoo X9S, and I couldn't tell any difference at all. So for the last 9 months I haven't used OPPO at all, all my movie library is served with nas416play 24TB .



A few things: 

Are you using 18 Ghz input cards on your Lumagen? 

Have you enabled developer and turned on Colorimetry in the Nvidia to allow for colorspace switching? 

Do you set up the Nvidia input on the Lumagen to limit 1080p or do you use 9 Ghz (or with 18 Gzh cards) 18 Ghz? Or do you perform some other steps to allow for correct resolution?


Sounds like with the demise of the Oppo (USB capable input) I may be left with using the Zidoo if I find that I cannot make my existing hardware work.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

sjschaff said:


> A few things:
> 
> Are you using 18 Ghz input cards on your Lumagen?
> 
> Have you enabled developer and turned on Colorimetry in the Nvidia to allow for colorspace switching?
> 
> Do you set up the Nvidia input on the Lumagen to limit 1080p or do you use 9 Ghz (or with 18 Gzh cards) 18 Ghz? Or do you perform some other steps to allow for correct resolution?
> 
> 
> Sounds like with the demise of the Oppo (USB capable input) I may be left with using the Zidoo if I find that I cannot make my existing hardware work.


Yes sorry forgot to mention I use 18Ghz input and output modules in Lumagen, yes I did enabled colorspace option in the Developer option. In Lumagen inputs are not limited. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## sjschaff

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Yes sorry forgot to mention I use 18Ghz input and output modules in Lumagen, yes I did enabled colorspace option in the Developer option. In Lumagen inputs are not limited.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk



So, I guess my simple question, at least I hope it is: If using Kodi/Nvidia Shield -> Lumagen Pro with 18 Ghz input cards -> projector or other HDR capable device for HDR file playback are there still reasons to go with the Zidoo X9S? Currently I'm using both USB drives connected via a USB hub as well as a Synology NAS. I'm assuming both would be supported by the Zidoo.


----------



## giomania

sjschaff said:


> So, I guess my simple question, at least I hope it is: If using Kodi/Nvidia Shield -> Lumagen Pro with 18 Ghz input cards -> projector or other HDR capable device for HDR file playback are there still reasons to go with the Zidoo X9S? Currently I'm using both USB drives connected via a USB hub as well as a Synology NAS. I'm assuming both would be supported by the Zidoo.


I am catching up on the Nvidia Shield thread, and found this post:



> Hey guys remind me of something please, do I have to set the Shield to 1080p for resolution switching to work with Kodi? I know that was the case with Emby, but thought Kodi was different. I have my Shield set to 2160p, when watching a 1080p file Kodi only changed the refresh rate, the tv was receiving a 2160p signal.
> 
> If this is the case then that means netflix and prime will always be at 1080p. Which is why I have it at 2160p. For some reason I thought Kodi solved this issue.
> No, you do not have to set the Shield to 1080p. You can leave the Shield set to 4K. If you're using Kodi, you have to go into settings and "whitelist" the appropriate resolutions. Then it will switch to 1080p as needed.


 This explains the reason for whitelisting resolutions in Kodi. With MrMC, it is a little simpler, as reported here.

Also, someone created an app to control refresh rate of apps: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1105215/shield-tv/-apk-refresh-rate-tool/?offset=4#6023111

Before you purchase another media player, you may want to hit this link to the 4K media player thread.

Now, to bring this back on topic...can't wait for the new DTM updates coming soon!

Mark


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## sjschaff

giomania said:


> I am catching up on the Nvidia Shield thread, and found this post:
> 
> This explains the reason for whitelisting resolutions.
> 
> Also, someone created an app to control refresh rate of apps: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1105215/shield-tv/-apk-refresh-rate-tool/?offset=4#6023111
> 
> Before you purchase another media player, you may want to hit this link to the 4K media player thread.
> 
> Now, to bring this back on topic...can't wait for the new DTM updates coming soon!
> 
> Mark



Well it's both better to go with what you've got, than to take a flyer on a new piece of gear. So, I've ordered up the 18 Ghz input card from Lumagen. At least people on this forum have gotten that to work with the Nvidia. And Jim from Lumagen does the best support of any company I've run into for us in this often complex world of video. Now that I think of it, Lumagen literally coddles us, compared to Apple, despite the praise often raining down on them ('course that's by comparison to other computer firms). Finally, I've got Alexa and Harmony Elite working nicely (well mostly) with the Nvida while I'm quite certain it would be less likely to have success with the Zidoo, or other devices.


----------



## mikela

SoulOfUniverse said:


> At the moment the most reliable and proven android box is x9s or any ZIDOO box based on the same chip.


Would the Z9S also be a good choice?


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## KarlKlammer

@*jrp* 
After some more testing and revising my parameters, I think we don't need to look further at 0:00:18 of The MEG.
But the clipping ~00:01:13 remains. Also the strange brightness/saturation in the other two scenes remains.

At the moment I prefer setting Display Max Light to 800 Nits.


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## giomania

mikela said:


> Would the Z9S also be a good choice?




The X9S (which has the RTD1295 SoC) is not produced any longer, so existing inventory or used would be the only options.

The Z9S (which has the RTD1296 SoC) is a fine choice. There is not much difference between the two chips, and might as well get the one that might be supported longer.

Check availability for both and decide, but do take a peek at the spreadsheet in the thread I posted above if you need a certain thing supported or if performance with a certain App is important to you.

Mark

Edit: Chip M/N Corrections.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SoulOfUniverse

giomania said:


> I am catching up on the Nvidia Shield thread, and found this post:
> 
> 
> 
> This explains the reason for whitelisting resolutions in Kodi. With MrMC, it is a little simpler, as reported here.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, someone created an app to control refresh rate of apps: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1105215/shield-tv/-apk-refresh-rate-tool/?offset=4#6023111
> 
> 
> 
> Before you purchase another media player, you may want to hit this link to the 4K media player thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, to bring this back on topic...can't wait for the new DTM updates coming soon!
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


Hey Mark I've just figured out how to make Autoswitch work with Kodi and Nvidia Shield 4K via Lumagen

      
Here are the screenshots
So you have to select Recommended resolution in Nvidia, make sure it is staying at @59 recommend FPS
Then in Kodi in System settings in Video section you have to actually whitelist all available resolutions by opening the window and marking all of them.
Then in Player settings for Video select to change frame rate always
And now Autoswitch works as expected, audio passtrhough works as expected, no dropped frames and it uses native player of Kodi, which I always wanted. So I am continuing to test it at the moment happy.
Also don't forget to select auto switch colorspace in Developer options.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## SoulOfUniverse

mikela said:


> Would the Z9S also be a good choice?


Yes, I've mentioned pros and cons

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## Roland Janus

*DTM and Sony 5000*

can some Sony 5000 users please post their settings when using DTM?
In particular the Max light setting and maybe the NITS you get?

thanks, roland


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## mikela

giomania said:


> take a peek at the spreadsheet in the thread I posted above if you need a certain thing supported or if performance with a certain App is important to you.


What a great resource!

Thanks


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## giomania

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hey Mark I've just figured out how to make Autoswitch work with Kodi and Nvidia Shield 4K via Lumagen
> http://imgur.com/a/actkluY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the screenshots
> So you have to select Recommended resolution in Nvidia, make sure it is staying at @59 recommend FPS
> Then in Kodi in System settings in Video section you have to actually whitelist all available resolutions by opening the window and marking all of them.
> Then in Player settings for Video select to change frame rate always
> And now Autoswitch works as expected, audio passtrhough works as expected, no dropped frames and it uses native player of Kodi, which I always wanted. So I am continuing to test it at the moment happy.
> Also don't forget to select auto switch colorspace in Developer options.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk




After setting this up, Kodi is not totally working for me; it won’t send 23.98 Hz. MrMC will send 23.98 Hz, but sends only PCM, not bitstream. Ugh.

Thankfully I have my OPPO which just works.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## OMARDRIS

KarlKlammer said:


> At the moment I prefer setting Display Max Light to 800 Nits.


Hi,
At 120 - 130 nits in the production environment, I think the setting of 800 for Max Light in the Radiance for DTM operation is very good.

For Sony projectors that use the HDR tuning over the color space "Userdef 5" must be checked when using the DTM, if the base gamma (SDR) in the upper range is not significantly below 2.4 and correct here if necessary. This HDR tuning was designed for static and not for dynamic HDR.
Peter


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## A7mad78

I found that in 1000 nits movies the best max light is about 400-450 

But when I play a 4000 nits movies like the meg the best max light is around 700-800 nits and i prefer 700 such the scene 01:13 looks batter in and reduce the clipping still there but much batter and the back ground looks great 

Here pic in 450 nits DML










and here a pic in 750 nits DML










I hope the pic reflect what I see in real 

So I think if there option in DTM to keep 2 different DML for 1000 nits content and 4000 nits content it will be good I think to tone map properly 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sjschaff

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hey Mark I've just figured out how to make Autoswitch work with Kodi and Nvidia Shield 4K via Lumagen
> 
> 
> Here are the screenshots
> So you have to select Recommended resolution in Nvidia, make sure it is staying at @59 recommend FPS
> Then in Kodi in System settings in Video section you have to actually whitelist all available resolutions by opening the window and marking all of them.
> Then in Player settings for Video select to change frame rate always
> And now Autoswitch works as expected, audio passtrhough works as expected, no dropped frames and it uses native player of Kodi, which I always wanted. So I am continuing to test it at the moment happy.
> Also don't forget to select auto switch colorspace in Developer options.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


 What I've found in my Kodi/Nvidia Shield/Lumagen Pro environment is that when switching from one input (say Tivo) to the Nvidia switching is quick. However, to play a file of any format if I use Kodi settings under Player ... Playback ... Adjust display refresh rate set to Always there is a delay in showing the video (though sound is immediate) of 15-20 seconds. This is independent of whether or not I set Sync Playback to Display on or off. If the Adjust display refresh rate is off, the video displays immediately. However in this case many videos I'll watch will not be smooth at all (rather jerky), so I'm assuming the frame rate of the source is not being handled correctly. I'm wondering if there's some setting in the Nvidia that should be altered instead, to allow correct frame rate matching with Kodi, avoiding the noticeable delay I experience with the Kodi setting. Or are there some other Kodi settings I've missed. I've tried both enabling and disabling any hardware acceleration but no effect. One thing I did notice is that Render Method is greyed out. What would keep this from being adjustable? But that may have nothing at all to do with what I'm finding.


Did try and see if changing the refresh rate in Kodi from 59.xx to 23.xx did anything, but none.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

sjschaff said:


> What I've found in my Kodi/Nvidia Shield/Lumagen Pro environment is that when starting to play a file of any format if I use Kodi settings under Player ... Playback ... Adjust display refresh rate set to Always there is a delay in showing the video (though sound is immediate) of 15-20 seconds. This is independent of whether or not I set Sync Playback to Display on or off. If the Adjust display refresh rate is off, the video displays immediately. However in this case many videos I'll watch will not be smooth at all (rather jerky), so I'm assuming the frame rate of the source is not being handled correctly. I'm wondering if there's some setting in the Nvidia that should be altered instead, to allow correct frame rate matching with Kodi, avoiding the noticeable delay I experience with the Kodi setting. Or are there some other Kodi settings I've missed. I've tried both enabling and disabling any hardware acceleration but no effect. One thing I did notice is that Render Method is greyed out. What would keep this from being adjustable? But that may have nothing at all to do with what I'm finding.


I suppose you have JVC projector if you experience 15-20 seconds delay? This is normal behaviour as when you play video it switches to its native resolution and frame rate, therefore it is expected that there will be a new handshake between your display and Lumagen. I have Sony vw760es and my delays are around 5 seconds, so is fine. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## sjschaff

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I suppose you have JVC projector if you experience 15-20 seconds delay? This is normal behaviour as when you play video it switches to its native resolution and frame rate, therefore it is expected that there will be a new handshake between your display and Lumagen. I have Sony vw760es and my delays are around 5 seconds, so is fine.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk



Got me! I see that the Lumagen shows the input as 23.98 after I start playing, so it's that EDID negotiation that must be occurring. Wonder if this is true of all later JVC projectors.


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## Roland Janus

*DTM and Sony 5000*



Roland Janus said:


> can some Sony 5000 users please post their settings when using DTM?
> In particular the Max light setting and maybe the NITS you get?
> 
> thanks, roland


bump


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## stefanop

Roland Janus said:


> bump


Max Light=600 but I use the in-built filter, otherwise 800 is more reasonable value


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## Roland Janus

stefanop said:


> Max Light=600 but I use the in-built filter, otherwise 800 is more reasonable value


thanks!
you also know the light output (nits) with that?


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## jh901

giomania said:


> 4) Blade Runner 2049 (2018) Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = 480
> ▪ A very dark movie with a MaxCLL = 480 Nits (Disc metadata incorrectly reports 182 Nits)



Those interested should buy the Sony release. Appreciably better detail. Not sure if the HDR metadata is unique, but I can look (on UB820).


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## stefanop

Roland Janus said:


> thanks!
> you also know the light output (nits) with that?


No, I don't


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## giomania

giomania said:


> After setting this up, Kodi is not totally working for me; it won’t send 23.98 Hz. MrMC will send 23.98 Hz, but sends only PCM, not bitstream. Ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully I have my OPPO which just works.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




Nevermind: Both Kodi and MrMC are working fine. For some reason, my output setting for Mode was Custom0 (1080p60) instead of Auto 1. I changed that, and they both send 23.98 Hz fine and MrMC I had the incorrect audio settings for bitstream.



Does anyone know why we have Auto 1 through 4 as options for Mode in the output setup menu?



Mark


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## beastaudio

Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?


----------



## thrang

Any eta on the next firmware?


----------



## Gotchaa

Anyone with 18ghz outputs experiencing green screen on 042119? Multiple reboots flash down and back up seem to make no difference at this point.


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## gattorodolfo

thrang said:


> Any eta on the next firmware?


I'm also interested in knowing when the next firmware could come out


----------



## giomania

Gotchaa said:


> Anyone with 18ghz outputs experiencing green screen on 042119? Multiple reboots flash down and back up seem to make no difference at this point.




All good on mine.

Can you provide setup info and more details? Default settings used?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## giomania

giomania said:


> Does anyone know why we have Auto 1 through 4 as options for Mode in the output setup menu?
> 
> Mark


I found this in the manual, by the way.

Setting the mode to “Auto” followed by an output number will get data from the display for its preferred mode. *The output number allows choosing one primary output*. The command is:
MENU → Output → Custom Modes → [Custom] → Select Mode

I have mine set to Auto1 because I did not look in the manual when I set this. The strange thing is that nothing is connected to output #1 , but now my Shield TV will send 23.98 Hz video when appropriate for the content, and before it was sending 59.94 Hz for all content. 

When the Radiance Pro was set to the default Output Mode of Custom0 (1080p60) the only source device that would consistently send 23.98 Hz when appropriate for the content was the OPPO UDP-203.

Isn't HDMI great? 

Mark


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## audioguy

giomania said:


> Isn't HDMI great?
> 
> Mark


Just remember, HDMI stands for "Highly Demonic Media Interface" !!


----------



## sjschaff

giomania said:


> I found this in the manual, by the way.
> 
> Setting the mode to “Auto” followed by an output number will get data from the display for its preferred mode. *The output number allows choosing one primary output*. The command is:
> MENU → Output → Custom Modes → [Custom] → Select Mode
> 
> I have mine set to Auto1 because I did not look in the manual when I set this. The strange thing is that nothing is connected to output #1 , but now my Shield TV will send 23.98 Hz video when appropriate for the content, and before it was sending 59.94 Hz for all content.
> 
> When the Radiance Pro was set to the default Output Mode of Custom0 (1080p60) the only source device that would consistently send 23.98 Hz when appropriate for the content was the OPPO UDP-203.
> 
> Isn't HDMI great?
> 
> Mark



Tried to use another output option to force the Lumagen to always output 23.98 GHz but it didn't seem to help speed up the EDID synch with my Kodi/Nvidia Shield/Lumagen/JVC chain. For Kodi I can tell it to use 23.98 for its menus and do a similar bit for the Nividia (though its 4k 23.98 GHz as I recall). I'll give this option a try. However, as I think you pointed out, the JVC is the big fly in the ointment for me. Audio always precedes video by 15 seconds or so.


I'll experiment with Custom Modes to see if that holds any key to getting things working better.


----------



## David Johannesen

Trying to connect my new JVC NX9 to my RadiancePro. When connected to the Lumagen, jvc says no signal. If I connect the projector directly to the source I get signal and picture. If I connect through my old Radiance 2021 iget a signal. I also get a signal if I connect to my Sony 385. But no signal if I have Radiance Pro in the signal path to the NX9. I feel like I am forgetting something simple and basic. Suggestions welcome.


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## giomania

David Johannesen said:


> Trying to connect my new JVC NX9 to my RadiancePro. When connected to the Lumagen, jvc says no signal. If I connect the projector directly to the source I get signal and picture. If I connect through my old Radiance 2021 iget a signal. I also get a signal if I connect to my Sony 385. But no signal if I have Radiance Pro in the signal path to the NX9. I feel like I am forgetting something simple and basic. Suggestions welcome.




Look at the video output options on page 9? Of the manual and try some of those commands to force output resolution.

If you changed any settings while playing around you might consider factory default, unless you have some inputs for source devices tweaked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Gotchaa

giomania said:


> All good on mine.
> 
> Can you provide setup info and more details? Default settings used?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I have one of the original batch of beta units, so this one is down for the count, factory defaults/old code, etc no luck. Lumagen is working with me to get it replaced.


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## David Johannesen

Regarding RadiancePro and JVC Nx9. I do get a signal if I change hdmi 2 on projector to EDID B, which limits me to 1080p. So it is an hdmi sync issue. I have the output on the Radiance Pro set to auto 2. Tried changing it to Auto 1 and it made no difference. I really haven’t done anything exotic, except for configuring tone mapping. Most settings are at their default values.


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## giomania

David Johannesen said:


> Trying to connect my new JVC NX9 to my RadiancePro. When connected to the Lumagen, jvc says no signal. If I connect the projector directly to the source I get signal and picture. If I connect through my old Radiance 2021 iget a signal. I also get a signal if I connect to my Sony 385. But no signal if I have Radiance Pro in the signal path to the NX9. I feel like I am forgetting something simple and basic. Suggestions welcome.





giomania said:


> Look at the video output options on page 9? Of the manual and try some of those commands to force output resolution.
> 
> If you changed any settings while playing around you might consider factory default, unless you have some inputs for source devices tweaked.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





David Johannesen said:


> Regarding RadiancePro and JVC Nx9. I do get a signal if I change hdmi 2 on projector to EDID B, which limits me to 1080p. So it is an hdmi sync issue. I have the output on the Radiance Pro set to auto 2. Tried changing it to Auto 1 and it made no difference. I really haven’t done anything exotic, except for configuring tone mapping. Most settings are at their default values.


I am trying to see a pattern without knowing much about your setup. I am suspecting this is an HDMI cable bandwidth issue, because you get a signal when the projector is limited to 1080p EDID. Can you try a different cable? If not, here are some suggestions:

Set the Lumagen to ouptput 1080p (1080p60: MENU 0 2 7 OK) and see if you get a picture with EDID A on the projector. You can make the change via the Radiance Pro OSD while you have a picture using EDID B, save the settings in the Radiance Pro, then switch the EDID in the projector, and if it does not synch, try power-cycling the Radiance Pro. 

Assuming you have 18 GHz output cards, you try limiting the output to 9 GHz via the command: Output→Style [choose style]→HDMI Format→Type [change to 9 GHz Auto].

Or you can just call Lumagen support (leave a message if it goes to voice mail): 503-574-2211

Mark


----------



## giomania

I am using ChromaPure v3 Auto calibration, and I need to re-accomplish the 3D LUT calibration on my LG OLED due to having selected the incorrect color setting on the TV. Is it OK just to re-run (over-write) both the 1D and 3D LUT without "erasing" the existing 1D and 3D LUT calibrations in the Radiance Pro?

When I was figuring out how to get AutoCal working, I made multiple calibration runs, and I was only re-setting the Color Gamut and Grayscale and Gamma settings to the defaults in the CMS menu. Would it be better to copy an unused CMS into the calibrated CMS, thereby really erasing the 1D and 3D LUT calibrations?

Thanks.

Edit: I called Lumagen, and Jim said it is best to reset the 1D and 3D LUT's to their defaults like I have been doing. I will point out that you have to turn on the service mode temporarily to be able to access those settings, but there is a notification about this in the GUI.

Mark


----------



## dinamigym

David Johannesen said:


> Regarding RadiancePro and JVC Nx9. I do get a signal if I change hdmi 2 on projector to EDID B, which limits me to 1080p. So it is an hdmi sync issue. I have the output on the Radiance Pro set to auto 2. Tried changing it to Auto 1 and it made no difference. I really haven’t done anything exotic, except for configuring tone mapping. Most settings are at their default values.




Auto leaves my sync very unstable with the Sony 5000. Maybe try this. It helped fix my sync. If it works you can expand on it to differentiate between 4k24 and 4k60.

In the Output Setup Menu under 2D select All inputs, All Memories, and All input resolutions and then select the output mode as 2160p60 (3840x2160). Then change the “Rate Match” setting to “No.” 
Rate Match
Some material may be sourced at 24.00/60.00 Hertz refresh rates instead of the standard 23.98/59.94 Hertz rates. It is desirable to slightly alter the output rate to match the input rate as long as the display works with these different rates. The default setting is 'Off.' Use 'Off' if your display will not accept these rates. If the output mode is set to “Auto”, this setting is ignored and rate matching is used if needed. The command is:
MENU  Output  Styles  [Styles]  HDMI Format  Rate Match  (No, Yes)

Then do a Save.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

beastaudio said:


> Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?


No color on this from anyone?


----------



## dinamigym

beastaudio said:


> No color on this from anyone?




Cant comment directly on DTV but I am very happy with the Xfinity result.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

beastaudio said:


> Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?


I don't have DirectTV either, but our fairly poor looking A T & T U Verse cable TV does look cleaner / better going through the Lumagen.


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## Karl Maga

sjschaff said:


> Got me! I see that the Lumagen shows the input as 23.98 after I start playing, so it's that EDID negotiation that must be occurring. Wonder if this is true of all later JVC projectors.


The latest JVC’s are said to have improved sync times with JVC having acknowledged that it has been a common frustration for their customers. Like you, I have a DLA-RS500U; I’m trying to decipher if a Lumagen processor will improve its picture quality performance and usability (think sync times, they drive me nuts!) enough that I’d be happy keeping the RS500.


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## sjschaff

Karl Maga said:


> The latest JVC’s are said to have improved sync times with JVC having acknowledged that it has been a common frustration for their customers. Like you, I have a DLA-RS500U; I’m trying to decipher if a Lumagen processor will improve its picture quality performance and usability (think sync times, they drive me nuts!) enough that I’d be happy keeping the RS500.



I would contact Lumagen and provide them details on your current hardware configuration. I believe that in the case of the JVC RS500/600 product line the delays are on the projector rather than Lumagen. I've tried all sorts of settings to keep things consistent or force everything on the input side and output side to prevent refreshes of hardware EDID related actions to no avail. I suspect over time JVC will work to minimize the delays. Meanwhile, I just make sure to press pause after I launch a film in Kodi (app on my Nvidia Shield TV) and await the display of the image on from the JVC before playing.


----------



## Karl Maga

sjschaff said:


> I would contact Lumagen and provide them details on your current hardware configuration. I believe that in the case of the JVC RS500/600 product line the delays are on the projector rather than Lumagen. I've tried all sorts of settings to keep things consistent or force everything on the input side and output side to prevent refreshes of hardware EDID related actions to no avail. I suspect over time JVC will work to minimize the delays. Meanwhile, I just make sure to press pause after I launch a film in Kodi (app on my Nvidia Shield TV) and await the display of the image on from the JVC before playing.


Your response is quite useful, though disappointing in that I had hoped a Lumagen could prevent, or minimize, the EDID refreshes. I realize the sync delay is a JVC thing, it’s my only area of serious dissatisfaction with it.


----------



## sjschaff

Karl Maga said:


> Your response is quite useful, though disappointing in that I had hoped a Lumagen could prevent, or minimize, the EDID refreshes. I realize the sync delay is a JVC thing, it’s my only area of serious dissatisfaction with it.



I know that Lumagen continues to work on identifying and working to mitigate any refreshes that may take place between the Lumangen Pro and associated displays. Suggest you give Jim a call to review your configuration, to find out what might be possible, now and in the future. I know that he and Patrick will have your attention. Unfortunately they can't fix what is already "broken" with JVC projectors.


----------



## SJHT

My RS600 (replaced with a Sony) was frustrating to use, but Jim and company have dealt with these older JVCs and can recommend settings to minimize the dreaded long resync. I’m fairly certain they have spoken directly with JVC about the HDMI input design. The newer JVCs are suppose to be improved.


----------



## dlinsley

beastaudio said:


> Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?


I use a DirecTV 4k mini (from a Genie 2) with my Lumagen. The Women's World Cup in 4k is obviously a world apart from the regular channels though. Would the issue you are seeing not be baked into the content, seeing as ABC are a 720p channel? Otherwise, upscaling and deinterlacing of the 1080i channels is great. Jim mentioned years ago after the last big deinterlacing update that they would look into doing more in future such as diagonal filtering. I've not really seem more than 1 or 2 split second cases in that time though where I felt the old Gennum in the XD might have down a better job.


----------



## David Johannesen

dlinsley said:


> I use a DirecTV 4k mini (from a Genie 2) with my Lumagen. The Women's World Cup in 4k is obviously a world apart from the regular channels though. Would the issue you are seeing not be baked into the content, seeing as ABC are a 720p channel? Otherwise, upscaling and deinterlacing of the 1080i channels is great. Jim mentioned years ago after the last big deinterlacing update that they would look into doing more in future such as diagonal filtering. I've not really seem more than 1 or 2 split second cases in that time though where I felt the old Gennum in the XD might have down a better job.


Lumagen and Nx9. Jim helped me out yesterday and I can get a connection if I enter menu code to force 9 ghz. I have ordered new hdmi cable. It occurs to me that I never tried an 18 gig connection before since my Sony 395 did not have 18 gig inputs. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will post tomorrow if the new RUIPRO solves the problem.


----------



## bobof

Karl Maga said:


> The latest JVC’s are said to have improved sync times with JVC having acknowledged that it has been a common frustration for their customers. Like you, I have a DLA-RS500U; I’m trying to decipher if a Lumagen processor will improve its picture quality performance and usability (think sync times, they drive me nuts!) enough that I’d be happy keeping the RS500.


There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:

Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
Disabling rate matching
Disabling genlock

However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that! 

Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.


----------



## KarlKlammer

I have another question regarding DTM. 
How do you set your parameters to prevent alternating brightness between two scenes?
This happens several times in Mad Max. Setting the low ratio to -5 and the high ratio to 20 will help a little. But that makes darker mastered movies even darker.


----------



## Karl Maga

bobof said:


> There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
> 
> Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
> Disabling rate matching
> Disabling genlock
> 
> However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!
> 
> Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.


Thank you for explaining this. When I still had Charter cable the sync issue rarely occurred outside of source changing. However, upon replacing the Charter DVR with a Roku Ultra and subsequent move to PS Vue, it started to happen frequently: such as when commercials air. I set the output of the Roku to 4K / 60 FPS for all content. This has helped, but a Lumagen would obviously improve picture quality vs the Roku’s video processing.


----------



## thrang

bobof said:


> There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
> 
> Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
> Disabling rate matching
> Disabling genlock
> 
> However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!
> 
> Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.


I am very bothered by the 23.976 stutter if genlock is off, so have it enabled.


----------



## sjschaff

bobof said:


> There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
> 
> Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
> Disabling rate matching
> Disabling genlock
> 
> However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!
> 
> Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.



I've already had my input/output matching for the Nvidia Shield at the 4k / 23.98
Also, rate matching was set via Menu 0873 (Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off)
However, I'd had Genlock set to Auto24-Normal. When I turned it off I suddenly find that choosing any file for playback through Kodi/Nvidia the video delay disappears. In fact the video image appears even before the audio.
Thanks for pointing this out.


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## bobof

sjschaff said:


> I've already had my input/output matching for the Nvidia Shield at the 4k / 23.98
> Also, rate matching was set via Menu 0873 (Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off)
> However, I'd had Genlock set to Auto24-Normal. When I turned it off I suddenly find that choosing any file for playback through Kodi/Nvidia the video delay disappears. In fact the video image appears even before the audio.
> Thanks for pointing this out.


Yup, "Genlock" incurs some delay as it has to sync up the "flywheel" (PLL) attached to the video output clock to the input clock to avoid dropped / duplicate frames.
Genlock Normal and Fast vary in how aggressively they attack the flywheel (braking / accelerating it). Once the clock is considered valid the display then has to be made to re sync to it. 

I'm surprised by how much content there is now in 24p (vs 23.976p) - I keep finding it on Netflix. Without a player that correctly supports 24p out (and rate matching on) you're doomed to a dropped frame every 41s and lipsync that cycles on a 0-1 frame gap. Once you solve that you then need genlock mode to avoid the player and Lumagen clock drifting and also causing dropped or duplicate frames.


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## sjschaff

bobof said:


> Yup, "Genlock" incurs some delay as it has to sync up the "flywheel" (PLL) attached to the video output clock to the input clock to avoid dropped / duplicate frames.
> Genlock Normal and Fast vary in how aggressively they attack the flywheel (braking / accelerating it). Once the clock is considered valid the display then has to be made to re sync to it.
> 
> I'm surprised by how much content there is now in 24p (vs 23.976p) - I keep finding it on Netflix. Without a player that correctly supports 24p out (and rate matching on) you're doomed to a dropped frame every 41s and lipsync that cycles on a 0-1 frame gap. Once you solve that you then need genlock mode to avoid the player and Lumagen clock drifting and also causing dropped or duplicate frames.



Thanks for the detailed explanation. At least for the Kodi/Nvidia Shield it seems that the firmware updates providing the Video settings for Adjust Display Refresh Rate to match video and Sync Playback to the Display work to alleviate the problem for 24p. I do, from time to time, run into jerky video on some content. Not sure the cause. Don't know of any settings in the Nvidia or Lumagen Pro to get past this.


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## bobof

sjschaff said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation. At least for the Kodi/Nvidia Shield it seems that the firmware updates providing the Video settings for Adjust Display Refresh Rate to match video and Sync Playback to the Display work to alleviate the problem for 24p. I do, from time to time, run into jerky video on some content. Not sure the cause. Don't know of any settings in the Nvidia or Lumagen Pro to get past this.


It's simple enough, you have to back out all the settings that stop you seeing the JVC black screens  . There isn't any magic, you either abuse the frame rates and put up with the jerky playback or put up with the sync delays and have video that doesn't get jerky.

The best answer would be a display that doesn't get such a large penalty from framerate switching so you could have genlock and framerate matching on without being sat in the dark for 10-15s at a time. It's all compromises unfortunately. 

Edit: one mitigation strategy would be to have a memory on the Lumagen that "did the right thing" with respect to genlock and framerate matching, and switch to that memory only when you have an obvious issue (to see if it resolves it for you). That might be an almost best of both worlds.


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## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I have another question regarding DTM.
> How do you set your parameters to prevent alternating brightness between two scenes?
> This happens several times in Mad Max. Setting the low ratio to -5 and the high ratio to 20 will help a little. But that makes darker mastered movies even darker.


I'm not sure there is much you can do about it by parameter fiddling with the current options, I think most of the changes would have to come from Lumagen as the scene detection parameters aren't exposed (not that I'm arguing for them to be! See previous rants... lol) 

They made some big improvements on the back of the trucks fight scenes from around 1hr43 onwards where the lighting differences were very obvious across some of the scene angle cuts. It's still not perfect - there are a couple of scenes in there that cause a notable difference in the sky - but it is much better than the first release. 

I see it often in Mad Max, but not so much in other movies. I don't know if that is because Mad Max is particularly bad for it, or whether it is because when I'm watching Mad Max it is usually for this kind of thing rather than actually watching the movie...! . I think it might have something to do though with Mad Max having a lot of very bright skys which make it very obvious when it happens.


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## KarlKlammer

That's what I secretly thought, to be honest. 
But I wanted to ask anyway, just to be sure that this is not a product of my own inability to set it up correctly.


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## David Johannesen

*New NX 9 and Radiance Pro*

RUIPRO cable came yesterday and connectivity working fine, even reporting out on info screen #2 that projector has 18 gig input. Thanks again for all the earlier responses.
Now I have a new question. Since I am busy twiddling with settings on my new toy, I pulled up test patterns on the Radiance Pro while DTM was engaged. On the contrast pattern and the white ramp, there were no bars, it was totally blown out on white level. No adjustment of contrast or iris could get me any of the bars on the pattern. I reconnected my Sony 385 and saw the same behavior. Do I have my tone mapping grossly misconfigured or am I demonstrating my ignorance in expecting the contrast test patterns to work while tone mapping is engaged?


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## giomania

David Johannesen said:


> RUIPRO cable came yesterday and connectivity working fine, even reporting out on info screen #2 that projector has 18 gig input. Thanks again for all the earlier responses.
> 
> Now I have a new question. Since I am busy twiddling with settings on my new toy, I pulled up test patterns on the Radiance Pro while DTM was engaged. On the contrast pattern and the white ramp, there were no bars, it was totally blown out on white level. No adjustment of contrast or iris could get me any of the bars on the pattern. I reconnected my Sony 385 and saw the same behavior. Do I have my tone mapping grossly misconfigured or am I demonstrating my ignorance in expecting the contrast test patterns to work while tone mapping is engaged?



I experienced the same behavior with my JVC RS540 projector while in “HDR” mode, with the Radiance Pro sending out SDR2020 with the HDR flag engaged.

I calibrated with a different user profile for HDR, and am running the lamp on high, and Iris opened up for maximum lumens for HDR. 

I was unable to see any difference in the pattern while adjusting Contrast. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## gattorodolfo

good morning to all I have recently bought the 4242 I feel good and I'm starting to understand the hdr / sdr configuration with excellent results. I find it difficult instead to configure hlg, or at least the result is not so good.
you can help me as it is configured, for example while being updated to 042119 it seems to me that the dtm is not active between on and of does not change anything yet I read from the firware specifications that should be active.
I thank you I look forward to your answers


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## Roland Janus

when adding a Paladin DCR, would all config then be done on the Radiance (outputing 4096x2160p) and the PJ config is kept as is?

What about different resolutions/aspect ratios?


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## Gordon Fraser

Roland Janus said:


> when adding a Paladin DCR, would all config then be done on the Radiance (outputing 4096x2160p) and the PJ config is kept as is?
> 
> What about different resolutions/aspect ratios?



yes you would normally set the PJ to fill screen with lens in place. Have scaler MODE to 4K outputs and Style setting with aspect of your screen. Then the auto aspect or direct input aspect buttons will scale image to fit within screen height. tech tip 7


http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals


Set output MODE so ALL 24K does 4K24 out, ALL 50Hz is 4K50 out and ALL 60Hz in is 4K60 out.


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## Roland Janus

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes you would normally set the PJ to fill screen with lens in place. Have scaler MODE to 4K outputs and Style setting with aspect of your screen. Then the auto aspect or direct input aspect buttons will scale image to fit within screen height. tech tip 7
> 
> 
> http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals
> 
> 
> Set output MODE so ALL 24K does 4K24 out, ALL 50Hz is 4K50 out and ALL 60Hz in is 4K60 out.


thanks a lot!
I'll order one then (great price on AVS btw)


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## bobof

Now we're starting to see discs with HDR10+ happen (I count well over 10 now: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=300877) is it looking like HDR10+ might be gaining traction, and if so, couldn't it be a useful addition to the Lumagen products? Would be nice to get the best possible out of those titles.


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## Wookii

bobof said:


> Now we're starting to see discs with HDR10+ happen (I count well over 10 now: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=300877) is it looking like HDR10+ might be gaining traction, and if so, couldn't it be a useful addition to the Lumagen products? Would be nice to get the best possible out of those titles.


I assume you need a display that also supports HDR10+? Given the debacle over HDR10 metadata, I’ve no real confidence they’ll be any better at applying it dynamically!


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## audioguy

The whole issue with the two formats and correct/incorrect meta data is eliminated with the way the Lumagen works. The display can be HDR format agnostic !!


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## bobof

Wookii said:


> I assume you need a display that also supports HDR10+? Given the debacle over HDR10 metadata, I’ve no real confidence they’ll be any better at applying it dynamically!


Not with a Radiance you don't, just like you can do "HDR" on non-HDR displays  . I guess the thought would be that an HDR10+ implementation in the Radiance could receive the HDR10+ metadata and use that to optimally map, perhaps having a better understanding of scenes and not having some of the side effects sometimes noted in DTM algorithms.

While I agree with the sentiment on static metadata; I guess this is a bit different due to where we are in the development cycle of HDR displays. Static metadata to date has been widely ignored by display manufacturers so there hasn't really been much pain for getting it wrong. Dynamic metadata on the other hand, if done badly, will have really quite notable ill effects during the movie when a display starts using that metadata to make mapping decisions.

I guess until we see some in depth tech info from HDR10+ content we won't know how good the dynamic data looks. But if it is being well implemented it seems to me like it would be well worth having.


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## Dominic Chan

bobof said:


> Not with a Radiance you don't, just like you can do "HDR" on non-HDR displays  . I guess the thought would be that an HDR10+ implementation in the Radiance could receive the HDR10+ metadata and use that to optimally map, perhaps having a better understanding of scenes and not having some of the side effects sometimes noted in DTM algorithms.


Can this be done for Dolby Vision as well?


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## bobof

Dominic Chan said:


> Can this be done for Dolby Vision as well?


Technically yes (after all, that is exactly what a display does), but practically no, because Dolby won't license DV to be used in that way.


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## Wookii

bobof said:


> Not with a Radiance you don't, just like you can do "HDR" on non-HDR displays  . I guess the thought would be that an HDR10+ implementation in the Radiance could receive the HDR10+ metadata and use that to optimally map, perhaps having a better understanding of scenes and not having some of the side effects sometimes noted in DTM algorithms.


That's good in theory, but is HDR10+ not 'locked down' in terms of signal chain certification in the same way the DV is? Certainly I've heard no mention of HDR10+ for projectors yet - but I guess Jim can confirm if they are likely to get HDR10+ certification.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> That's good in theory, but is HDR10+ not 'locked down' in terms of signal chain certification in the same way the DV is? Certainly I've heard no mention of HDR10+ for projectors yet - but I guess Jim can confirm if they are likely to get HDR10+ certification.


From what I understand for HDR10+ you pay your money (described as an admin fee), sign to undertake to follow the standards and get the specs in return, unless you are a display, in which case you have to go through a certification scheme. It's not immediately obvious which category of device an HDR10+ decoding Lumagen would be, as it would potentially simultaneously be able to both receive and transmit HDR10+
https://hdr10plus.org/license-program/

At the end of the day it will end up being completely worthless if the data is BS, so you'd hope given that participation as content is optional that if they bother to include HDR10+ that the data has some value; but we won't know until someone has a look at a piece of content in detail and sees what the metadata amounts to, comparing that data to what the content actually does.


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## bobof

Program linked here can parse HEVC files and output the HDR10+ metadata. Might have to pick up a couple of titles.
https://github.com/quietvoid/hdr10plus_parser
Edit: Nice bit of detail on the metadata here:
http://mile-high.video/files/mhv2018/pdf/day1/1_10_Mandel.pdf


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## jrp

David Johannesen said:


> RUIPRO cable came yesterday and connectivity working fine, even reporting out on info screen #2 that projector has 18 gig input. Thanks again for all the earlier responses.
> Now I have a new question. Since I am busy twiddling with settings on my new toy, I pulled up test patterns on the Radiance Pro while DTM was engaged. On the contrast pattern and the white ramp, there were no bars, it was totally blown out on white level. No adjustment of contrast or iris could get me any of the bars on the pattern. I reconnected my Sony 385 and saw the same behavior. Do I have my tone mapping grossly misconfigured or am I demonstrating my ignorance in expecting the contrast test patterns to work while tone mapping is engaged?


This it normal behavior. In HDR input mode the patterns can go from 0 to 10000 nits. Since your projector may be getting you about 100 nits, the Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) is doing what it is designed to do. That is, it rolls off the response as the level of the pattern rises. So you will not see the levels above a certain threshold (even though they continue to rise, but at a much reduced "below perception" level).


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## Craig Peer

I watched a movie on UHD Blu-ray last night I had not watched since before getting the Lumagen ( and Panamorph DCR lens for that matter ) - " Logan ". I thought the UHD Blu-ray looked dark before, even with a custom Arve's curve and full calibration, compared to the Blu-ray. But that was before the Lumagen and dynamic tone mapping. It looked like an entirely different movie last night! It looked stunning !


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## audioguy

Can u do NLS with an A Lens in place?


----------



## Eventidal

audioguy said:


> Can u do NLS with an A Lens in place?


Absolutely. My lens is always in the light path (fixed installation). I watch most 16:9 movies with NLS.


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## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Can u do NLS with an A Lens in place?




Certainly! I just don’t remember how. Toyed around with the concept back in the day, although I never stuck with the permanent Anamorphic lens. Your calibrator will know for sure when he comes. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## cargen

Code:







Roland Janus said:


> when adding a Paladin DCR, would all config then be done on the Radiance (outputing 4096x2160p) and the PJ config is kept as is?


Stating the above differently, in the gear combination of a Paladin DCR. Lumagen Radiance Pro and a new-gen JVC projector, should all the JVC Anamorphic A, B and C options be turned to *OFF*?


Chris


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## A7mad78

telem said:


> Can anyone recommend a calibrator in Switzerland ? Or in France(close to Geneva cities) ?
> 
> 
> 
> If yes please PM me, thank you very much!




In Europe I know Gordon fraser he is a great calibrator who know very will about the lumagen highly recommend 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thrang

The Lumagen Firmware Department has


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## Roland Janus

A7mad78 said:


> In Europe I know Gordon fraser he is a great calibrator who know very will about the lumagen highly recommend
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's UK right?
travel expenses...


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## AlterBridge86

cargen said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stating the above differently, in the gear combination of a Paladin DCR. Lumagen Radiance Pro and a new-gen JVC projector, should all the JVC Anamorphic A, B and C options be turned to *OFF*?
> 
> 
> Chris


Yes, all JVC anamorphic options should be off with the Lumagen handling the scaling. I have the DCR paired with an RS2000 and Lumagen in the rack. 

All those JVC anamorphic options do is scale the input to fill the full 4096x2160 panel, which when shown through the DCR appears correct on screen. With Lumagen in place, you will want to use it's (far superior) scaling to output all sources as 4096x2160. The projector sees the 4096x2160 input and lights up the full panel without having to use those anamorphic options. 

Probably one of my favorite things about using the Lumagen is the black bar detection - it will automatically switch aspect ratios based on where it detects black bars to be. Play a 16:9 movie or show, it displays correctly on your screen. Play a 2.0:1 show (i'm looking at you Netflix), it scales to fit the height of your screen. And of course play a scope 2.35:1 movie and you guessed it, it scales correctly to the screen . With the JVC native anamorphic option, you only get scaling for 2.35:1 and a distorted 16:9.


----------



## audioguy

AlterBridge86 said:


> Probably one of my favorite things about using the Lumagen is the black bar detection - it will automatically switch aspect ratios based on where it detects black bars to be. Play a 16:9 movie or show, it displays correctly on your screen. Play a 2.0:1 show (i'm looking at you Netflix), it scales to fit the height of your screen. And of course play a scope 2.35:1 movie and you guessed it, it scales correctly to the screen . With the JVC native anamorphic option, you only get scaling for 2.35:1 and a distorted 16:9.



I have not had my Lumagen fully integrated yet but those are some very mice features. Thanks for posting.


----------



## cargen

AlterBridge86 said:


> Yes, all JVC anamorphic options should be off with the Lumagen handling the scaling. I have the DCR paired with an RS2000 and Lumagen in the rack.
> 
> All those JVC anamorphic options do is scale the input to fill the full 4096x2160 panel, which when shown through the DCR appears correct on screen. With Lumagen in place, you will want to use it's (far superior) scaling to output all sources as 4096x2160. The projector sees the 4096x2160 input and lights up the full panel without having to use those anamorphic options.
> 
> Probably one of my favorite things about using the Lumagen is the black bar detection - it will automatically switch aspect ratios based on where it detects black bars to be. Play a 16:9 movie or show, it displays correctly on your screen. Play a 2.0:1 show (i'm looking at you Netflix), it scales to fit the height of your screen. And of course play a scope 2.35:1 movie and you guessed it, it scales correctly to the screen . With the JVC native anamorphic option, you only get scaling for 2.35:1 and a distorted 16:9.



Many thanks for your answer.
Don't know why I was so confused, but surely was and I appreciate the clarity of your answer!


Chris


----------



## A7mad78

Roland Janus said:


> He's UK right?
> 
> travel expenses...




Yes he is from UK about his expenses it’s something belong to him I just recommend Gordon and I know his work how good 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

AlterBridge86 said:


> Probably one of my favorite things about using the Lumagen is the black bar detection - it will automatically switch aspect ratios based on where it detects black bars to be. Play a 16:9 movie or show, it displays correctly on your screen. Play a 2.0:1 show (i'm looking at you Netflix), it scales to fit the height of your screen. And of course play a scope 2.35:1 movie and you guessed it, it scales correctly to the screen . With the JVC native anamorphic option, you only get scaling for 2.35:1 and a distorted 16:9.


For bonus points, hook up the autoaspect detection to an electric masking screen for one step closer to cinema nirvana; masks that open and close with no user interaction whatsoever.

Auto aspect was a bit patchy a year ago but is in a great place now; I don't see any false triggers any more. At the moment I'm only tracking two issues with it remaining:
1) Doesn't work with 3D frame packed content for some reason
2) Doesn't currently detect ratios >2.4:1, so for me content such as LaLaLand doesn't move the masks. 
They both affect me fairly regularly; hopefully they might get addressed


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## *Harry*

A7mad78 said:


> I just recommend Gordon and I know his work how good


+1 !!!
And his great service at all!


----------



## Roland Janus

A7mad78 said:


> Yes he is from UK about his expenses it’s something belong to him I just recommend Gordon and I know his work how good
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think I've asked him already, not sure what the answer was.

Anyway, the expenses add quiet a bit, but what if my Geneva colleague and I (from Basel) pool for that together, just one trip.


----------



## Eventidal

Roland Janus said:


> I think I've asked him already, not sure what the answer was.
> 
> Anyway, the expenses add quiet a bit, but what if my Geneva colleague and I (from Basel) pool for that together, just one trip.


Since he is the European Lumagen distributor he is the perfect choice!


----------



## llang269

Hey guys I have a radiance pro and I'm curious is this supposed to run so hot? btw I am loving it so far. Especially since I've upgrade all my hdmi cables. I was have a pink screen issue and audio drop outs. Seems all good now


----------



## Sandel

Eventidal said:


> Since he is the European Lumagen distributor he is the perfect choice!


Well, there's another one in Germany, Michael Schiffers from www.cinemike.de. At least he's the one I got my Lumagen from (and all my other stuff as well) and he really helped me squeeze the last bit of picture quality out of my setup.
Highly recommended!


----------



## SSnarski

llang269 said:


> Hey guys I have a radiance pro and I'm curious is this supposed to run so hot? btw I am loving it so far. Especially since I've upgrade all my hdmi cables. I was have a pink screen issue and audio drop outs. Seems all good now





Be very careful to allow plenty of airflow from the bottom of the unit as the fan draws air from the bottom for cooling, the unit does make a lot of heat, if the unit gets too hot it will automatically shut down.


----------



## Dirk44

Oliver Klohs calibrate my Lumagen Pro, he is a well known member of the avs and active here as well


----------



## jabz

Hi I've got the Oppo 203 however the Panasonic 820 is now the better 4K player due to the superior tone mapping and no issues with BT2020 output, unlike the Oppo's BT2020 issues.
Although none of this matters when using the Lumagen for tone mapping correct?


----------



## audioguy

jabz said:


> Hi I've got the Oppo 203 however the Panasonic 820 is now the better 4K player due to the superior tone mapping and no issues with BT2020 output, unlike the Oppo's BT2020 issues.
> *Although none of this matters when using the Lumagen for tone mapping correct?*


Correct.


----------



## jabz

Is there a beginners guide for basic calibration of a 4K Projector with Lumagen Pro using Lightspace yet? When I say beginner I mean starting from the beginning, i.e. you've taken the projector out of the box..

thanks


----------



## SJHT

jabz said:


> Is there a beginners guide for basic calibration of a 4K Projector with Lumagen Pro using Lightspace yet? When I say beginner I mean starting from the beginning, i.e. you've taken the projector out of the box..
> 
> thanks


We are still waiting for that... lol. I won’t tag anyone.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I know, i know....if you follow the instructions on the LightIllusion site you should be fine for now


----------



## giomania

I wish LightSpace wasn’t so expensive. 

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## A7mad78

I think we should receive an update for the lumagen from a 3 weeks ago any news about when it will be released ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

They’re probably aging it in an oak barrel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Pat and Jim have been working on it and Pat is now fixing it up for release. Might be ready by end of this week.


----------



## A7mad78

Gordon Fraser said:


> Pat and Jim have been working on it and Pat is now fixing it up for release. Might be ready by end of this week.




Thx mate 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

giomania said:


> They’re probably aging it in an oak barrel.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




Thx a lot  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

Gordon Fraser said:


> Pat and Jim have been working on it and Pat is now fixing it up for release. Might be ready by end of this week.


I'm looking forward to seeing what new improvements this brings !


----------



## jabz

jrp said:


> For 2 to 3 meter passive HDMI I recommend the Tributaries UHDP





Lasalle said:


> The 2m cables are Tributaries UHD Pro's.



Thanks Locally it appears I only have a choice between 1m or 3m Tributaries UHD Pro, there no stock of 2m. I take it you'd pick 3m? As I've heard issues with HDMI shorter than 1.8m is that right?


----------



## Lasalle

jabz said:


> Thanks Locally it appears I only have a choice between 1m or 3m Tributaries UHD Pro, there no stock of 2m. I take it you'd pick 3m? As I've heard issues with HDMI shorter than 1.8m is that right?


Yes 3m, one of my runs is 3m, I can’t tell the difference between that and the 2m. Shorter than 2m may give you reflection issues.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Craig Peer said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing what new improvements this brings !


So am I, but I've just checked and I'm still on 011119, so I might just update to 042119 and see what issues (if any) come up with the new one and then update in a month or so. I haven't used my X7500 since about March, so I'm mostly just using my Pro to downscale/convert to SDR 4K Netflix content to my 1080p TV.


----------



## FenceMan

How difficult is a Lumagen Pro to setup for a JVC RS2000 projector? It seems like from reading here this is a fairly complex process vs just turning on HDR optimizer on the Panasonic player? I assume the Lumagen results are a lot better though? If I have already auto calibrated the projector are 3d luts necessary on the Lumagen or optional (with improved results)? I have owned Lumagen's for years so I have no issue working with them, just wondering how complex the HDR setup is?


----------



## dinamigym

FenceMan said:


> How difficult is a Lumagen Pro to setup for a JVC RS2000 projector? It seems like from reading here this is a fairly complex process vs just turning on HDR optimizer on the Panasonic player? I assume the Lumagen results are a lot better though? If I have already auto calibrated the projector are 3d luts necessary on the Lumagen or optional (with improved results)? I have owned Lumagen's for years so I have no issue working with them, just wondering how complex the HDR setup is?




I would say it depends on how much you want to dig into. In my opinion, the default settings out of the box give a damn good result. You can always tweak over time at your leisure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jbrinegar

FenceMan said:


> How difficult is a Lumagen Pro to setup for a JVC RS2000 projector? It seems like from reading here this is a fairly complex process vs just turning on HDR optimizer on the Panasonic player? I assume the Lumagen results are a lot better though? If I have already auto calibrated the projector are 3d luts necessary on the Lumagen or optional (with improved results)? I have owned Lumagen's for years so I have no issue working with them, just wondering how complex the HDR setup is?


IMO: I also have an JVC rs2000 and the lumagen dynamic tone mapping is significantly better than my panasonic ub820, plus it works on all sources. Theres no way I could ever do without it now for HDR sources.

Setup wasnt too difficult after reading through this thread and emailing setup questions to lumagen. As a noob to lumagen, I had it all setup within a day or two.

Ive also gotten great calibration results with the lumagen and my id3 and chromapure auto calibration, although I cant say how it compares to the JVC autocal as Ive never done it before.

To me, a lumagen or MadVr is a must own if your going to watch alot of HDR as I feel like it looks that much better


----------



## FenceMan

jbrinegar said:


> IMO: I also have an JVC rs2000 and the lumagen dynamic tone mapping is significantly better than my panasonic ub820, plus it works on all sources. Theres no way I could ever do without it now for HDR sources.
> 
> Setup wasnt too difficult after reading through this thread and emailing setup questions to lumagen. As a noob to lumagen, I had it all setup within a day or two.
> 
> Ive also gotten great calibration results with the lumagen and my id3 and chromapure auto calibration, although I cant say how it compares to the JVC autocal as Ive never done it before.
> 
> To me, a lumagen or MadVr is a must own if your going to watch alot of HDR as I feel like it looks that much better


Do you set the Lumagen to output SDR2020 so the JVC doesn't do any tone mapping? Will the Lumagen automatically output Rec 709 for Blu and 2020 for HDR?


----------



## giomania

jbrinegar said:


> IMO: I also have an JVC rs2000 and the lumagen dynamic tone mapping is significantly better than my panasonic ub820, plus it works on all sources. Theres no way I could ever do without it now for HDR sources.
> 
> 
> 
> Setup wasnt too difficult after reading through this thread and emailing setup questions to lumagen. As a noob to lumagen, I had it all setup within a day or two.
> 
> 
> 
> Ive also gotten great calibration results with the lumagen and my id3 and chromapure auto calibration, although I cant say how it compares to the JVC autocal as Ive never done it before.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, a lumagen or MadVr is a must own if your going to watch alot of HDR as I feel like it looks that much better




Did you have success using chromapure to perform a 3D LUT calibration?

I couldn’t get it to work so I had to do only 1D LUT.

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## giomania

FenceMan said:


> Do you set the Lumagen to output SDR2020 so the JVC doesn't do any tone mapping? Will the Lumagen automatically output Rec 709 for Blu and 2020 for HDR?




Yes to both questions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Dirk44

Hallo everbody,

what happen with my question for warping?
Lumangen do think you had enough votes to get it on the list ?

best regards dirk


----------



## Eventidal

Dirk44 said:


> Hallo everbody,
> 
> what happen with my question for warping?
> Lumangen do think you had enough votes to get it on the list ?
> 
> best regards dirk


A lot of people voted for this. I also hope Jim added it to the list!!!!


----------



## dlinsley

I also liked @bobof idea of a curved masking control to make the sides look straight.


----------



## Eventidal

dlinsley said:


> I also liked @bobof idea of a curved masking control to make the sides look straight.


That´s what we are talking about...


----------



## Wookii

Eventidal said:


> That´s what we are talking about...


No, they’re different. Your talking about warping, which is scaling the entire image in a non-uniform way to counter the distortions caused by the lens.

Curved masking control involves no scaling, and simply masks pixels from the edges of the frame in a curvature opposite to that produced by the lens, to prevent overspill onto the screen border.


----------



## Eventidal

Wookii said:


> No, they’re different. Your talking about warping, which is scaling the entire image in a non-uniform way to counter the distortions caused by the lens.
> 
> Curved masking control involves no scaling, and simply masks pixels from the edges of the frame in a curvature opposite to that produced by the lens, to prevent overspill onto the screen border.


We were initially talking about "WARPING" and then Jim said that he could probably only correct the curve. And yes, they are different indeed.


----------



## Kris Deering

Hey Everyone. Just thought I'd chime in. I've been doing a bunch of testing these last couple days on the BIG update that is coming to the tone mapping for the Radiance Pro. This will be a full FPGA update with completely new curves designed from the ground up. I'm sure Jim will chime in with more specifics. To sum it up, the update is absolutely fantastic. Massive improvements in near black performance, change detections and the curves in general. I've been trying all the different torture tests that I've come up with over the years and I've been drawing as many as possible from the MadVR thread that people have found there and I haven't found a single issue yet. I think this will be going live VERY soon and everyone is in for a treat.


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just thought I'd chime in. I've been doing a bunch of testing these last couple days on the BIG update that is coming to the tone mapping for the Radiance Pro. This will be a full FPGA update with completely new curves designed from the ground up. I'm sure Jim will chime in with more specifics. To sum it up, the update is absolutely fantastic. Massive improvements in near black performance, change detections and the curves in general. I've been trying all the different torture tests that I've come up with over the years and I've been drawing as many as possible from the MadVR thread that people have found there and I haven't found a single issue yet. I think this will be going live VERY soon and everyone is in for a treat.


Wow - great news Kris ! Thanks for the update.


----------



## giomania

I wonder when the “Warp Drive” will be added. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just thought I'd chime in. I've been doing a bunch of testing these last couple days on the BIG update that is coming to the tone mapping for the Radiance Pro. This will be a full FPGA update with completely new curves designed from the ground up. I'm sure Jim will chime in with more specifics. To sum it up, the update is absolutely fantastic. Massive improvements in near black performance, change detections and the curves in general. I've been trying all the different torture tests that I've come up with over the years and I've been drawing as many as possible from the MadVR thread that people have found there and I haven't found a single issue yet. I think this will be going live VERY soon and everyone is in for a treat.


[email protected]@@

Any news on which if any demos at CEDIA 2019 will use the Radiance Pro?


----------



## cargen

*Update to the Radiance Pro manual*

jrp on 4-23-19:



jrp said:


> As I mentioned in my previous post I am working on an update to the Radiance Pro manual that includes Dynamic Tone Mapping. I hope to have something to put on the website mid-May.


Except for the intriguing enhancememts to Dynamic Tone Mapping that Kris Deering just teased us with, I would most prefer an update to the Radiance Pro manual re: DTM before any esoteric feature enhancement.

Since it is now mid-July, any word on status of an update?


----------



## Kris Deering

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Everyone. Just thought I'd chime in. I've been doing a bunch of testing these last couple days on the BIG update that is coming to the tone mapping for the Radiance Pro. This will be a full FPGA update with completely new curves designed from the ground up. I'm sure Jim will chime in with more specifics. To sum it up, the update is absolutely fantastic. Massive improvements in near black performance, change detections and the curves in general. I've been trying all the different torture tests that I've come up with over the years and I've been drawing as many as possible from the MadVR thread that people have found there and I haven't found a single issue yet. I think this will be going live VERY soon and everyone is in for a treat.
> 
> 
> 
> [email protected]@@
> 
> Any news on which if any demos at CEDIA 2019 will use the Radiance Pro?
Click to expand...

Not sure. I am. It presently doing any booth calibrations or setups but if I do I will try and get one to display.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just thought I'd chime in. I've been doing a bunch of testing these last couple days on the BIG update that is coming to the tone mapping for the Radiance Pro. This will be a full FPGA update with completely new curves designed from the ground up. I'm sure Jim will chime in with more specifics. To sum it up, the update is absolutely fantastic. Massive improvements in near black performance, change detections and the curves in general. I've been trying all the different torture tests that I've come up with over the years and I've been drawing as many as possible from the MadVR thread that people have found there and I haven't found a single issue yet. I think this will be going live VERY soon and everyone is in for a treat.


Really pleased to hear this. Though the current public release is much, much better than not running DTM; now I'm out of my setup phase(ish) in my new room and actually sitting back and watching movies I notice in particular that the change detection can very occasionally be a bit sub-optimal in places. Very excited to see the new release when it drops


----------



## venkatesh_m

Question, if all we were to use is 4k SDR 2020 from the Lumagen with DTM would the 18Gbps outputs be necessary? What kind of data rates would be likely be used?

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

venkatesh_m said:


> Question, if all we were to use is 4k SDR 2020 from the Lumagen with DTM would the 18Gbps outputs be necessary? What kind of data rates would be likely be used?


If you are happy to keep 4k50 or 4k60 to 8bit 420, and 4k24 to 12bit 422, then you can use 9G out cards.
This is the best chart for seeing this at a glance.


----------



## audioguy

I went through a similar analysis on deciding on how many inputs/outputs I wanted to be 18G. Finally determined, I would rather be safe, spend the extra money when I purchased it and went for all 18G. The Lumagen, like my A-Lens, processor, projector, speaker and amps, are very long ownership purchases. So I decided it was worth it.


----------



## venkatesh_m

bobof said:


> If you are happy to keep 4k50 or 4k60 to 8bit 420, and 4k24 to 12bit 422, then you can use 9G out cards.
> 
> This is the best chart for seeing this at a glance.


Thanks...I hv seen this chart so many times but not sure why I confused all this with 4k SDR...and I'm also pretty sure I read the answer before, most likely from you as well...thanks again. Overthinking is a nasty habit

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## venkatesh_m

audioguy said:


> I went through a similar analysis on deciding on how many inputs/outputs I wanted to be 18G. Finally determined, I would rather be safe, spend the extra money when I purchased it and went for all 18G. The Lumagen, like my A-Lens, processor, speaker and amps, are very long ownership purchases. So I decided it was worth it.


Yeah...I hear you...time to make a decision. I just got the S & M UHD disc as well and the demo clip where you get to change the mastering level is an eye opener for sure and comparing the output of the clip on my JVC with custom curves and the built in DTM on my LG OLED tells me that the way forward for projectors would be with some form on DTM and not static curves, no matter how much one thinks it looks ok. The saturation does not look as good on static curves.

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

venkatesh_m said:


> Thanks...I hv seen this chart so many times but not sure why I confused all this with 4k SDR...and I'm also pretty sure I read the answer before, most likely from you as well...thanks again. Overthinking is a nasty habit


For what it is worth I don't think it is that clear cut of a decision, particularly if you're going with a unit with only 1 output "slot" (ie a 42xx).

From what I understand you're likely to have less interoperability / HDMI handshake / cable etc issues sticking with the 9G out cards, and you get video out on both ports, instead of 1x 18G video + 1x9G audio with blue screen video.
I don't think 444 out is important particularly; so that leaves things like AppleTV UI and Billy Lynn's Long Halftime as benefiting from 4k50/60 >8bit. I think last time it came up Jim mentioned that the dithering to 8 bit is very good.
I think you definitely want 18G inputs unless you're likely to be a heavy PIP user when that feature lands on the larger units (you can't PIP the two inputs of a single 18G card I recall, pip has to be between different 18G cards).


----------



## Craig Peer

Wookii said:


> No, they’re different. Your talking about warping, which is scaling the entire image in a non-uniform way to counter the distortions caused by the lens.
> *
> Curved masking control involves no scaling, and simply masks pixels from the edges of the frame in a curvature opposite to that produced by the lens, to prevent overspill onto the screen border.*


That would be a nice feature. Icing on the cake for sure !


----------



## uderman

venkatesh_m said:


> Yeah...I hear you...time to make a decision. I just got the S & M UHD disc as well and the demo clip where you get to change the mastering level is an eye opener for sure and comparing the output of the clip on my JVC with custom curves and the built in DTM on my LG OLED tells me that the way forward for projectors would be with some form on DTM and not static curves, no matter how much one thinks it looks ok. The saturation does not look as good on static curves.
> 
> Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk



I have had my Radiance Pro 4449 since the day it came out. I purchased a 18GHz input and 18GHz output cards on the day they were released. So far, the only instances I ever needed 18GHz were Billy Lynn’s 4K UHD Blu-ray and Battlefield V on Xbox One X. Billy Lynn is the only 4K disc mastered in 60 frames and I doubt there will be more titles like this ever. Most Xbox one X games including 4K enhanced ones are OK with 9GHz in 4K60 in 8 bits , Battlefield V and maybe a few other 4K HDR titles need 4K60 in 12 bits. 

I actually decided to return my 18 GHz input card for a 9 Ghz card. 44xx units will get PIP/POP and 18 GHz input cards have limitations with this function. I am buying another 18 Ghz output card however. I prefer to send at least 4:2:2 to my TV.


----------



## LJG

Wondering when the new update will drop?


----------



## audioguy

LJG said:


> Wondering when the new update will drop?


Given the public comments by Kris Deering as well as an email conversation I had with Craig Rounds, it has to be very, very close - but I have not a clue what that means!!

I know. Not helpful in the slightest.


----------



## Praetorpwj

LJG said:


> Wondering when the new update will drop?


Not as imminently as hoped but I’d rather they get it right! Have been checking twice a day all week!


----------



## Craig Peer

Praetorpwj said:


> Not as imminently as hoped but I’d rather they get it right! Have been checking twice a day all week!


You and me both !


----------



## gadgetfreaky

considering getting a lumagen 4240, a few questions as I'm a newbie.
I have a projector, BenQ 990, that's connected to an Arcam receiver. inputs on the receiver are appletv, roku, of which I watch mostly Netflix, and movies that are 4k streams from vudu/appletv. 

Would I just get the 4240 and put it in between the receiver and projector?

how easy is it to setup?http://www.chromapure.com/products-lumagenPro-new.asp Here it says it comes with a meter, and software chromapure. Do all lumagens come with this? If i were to calibrate the projector (I've never done it with a meter) is it easy? How automated is it?

or do I get a i3 Display pro 3 and use HCFR?

or CalMan ? 

lastly I don't understand the 3D LUT do I need it?


----------



## audioguy

gadgetfreaky said:


> Would I just get the 4240 and put it in between the receiver and projector?


Yes



> how easy is it to setup?http://www.chromapure.com/products-lumagenPro-new.asp Here it says it comes with a meter, and software chromapure. Do all lumagens come with this? If i were to calibrate the projector (I've never done it with a meter) is it easy? How automated is it?
> 
> or do I get a i3 Display pro 3 and use HCFR?
> 
> or CalMan ?
> 
> lastly I don't understand the 3D LUT do I need it?


All Lumagen's don't come with ChromaPure - or CalMan. It is a package deal the video calibration software companies offer.

I can't comment on how easy it would be for you to do all of the calibration, implement 3D LUT, etc. I bought my first Lumagen (from CalMan) in order to be able to calibrate my projector, similar to what you are considering. At the time (maybe 8 or 10 years ago), it was anything but fully automated, though some portions were. And I clearly did not (and still don't) have the underlying knowledge to be able to successfully take full advantage of what it had to offer. That should not imply that you won't.

So instead of buying the Lumagen from ChromaPure (or CalMan), I bought my current one from someone who is an approved Lumagen Calibrator. There are a few of them but *Craig Rounds* (from whom I bought mine) is one as is *Kris Deering*. I'm sure there are others. Not inexpensive but you would be confident of getting the most out of your Lumagen/projector. That hardware is a significant investment and extracting all it has to offer would seem the logical choice.


----------



## Craig Peer

Waiting for this new firmware is a little bit like waiting for Christmas .


----------



## SJHT

Craig Peer said:


> Waiting for this new firmware is a little bit like waiting for Christmas .


You’ve heard of Christmas in July... Well, this is it!!


----------



## dlinsley

Is there a NORAD Santa Tracker that shows where the update will be next? We know it has already reached part of Western Washington at Kris' house. Where's he due next?


----------



## thrang




----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Craig Peer said:


> Waiting for this new firmware is a little bit like waiting for Christmas .





SJHT said:


> You’ve heard of Christmas in July... Well, this is it!!





dlinsley said:


> Is there a NORAD Santa Tracker that shows where the update will be next? We know it has already reached part of Western Washington at Kris' house. Where's he due next?


Everyone here is MAD with ENVY over what the Radiance Pro does already and even more so with the shortly upcoming firmware upgrade! (Pun intended!)


----------



## riddle

I still don't know what to buy, MadVR ENVY can be very interesting solution for an interesting price. But Lumanagen Radiance PRO have currently very good support but at a higher price. I think i will have to wait for some comparison.


----------



## bobof

riddle said:


> I still don't know what to buy, MadVR ENVY can be very interesting solution for an interesting price. But Lumanagen Radiance PRO have currently very good support but at a higher price. I think i will have to wait for some comparison.


Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.


----------



## riddle

bobof said:


> Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
> So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.



At least I suppose they will try to set a pricing policy to have room for competition. Anyway, we'll have to wait for some oficial info.


----------



## RickAVManiac

riddle said:


> bobof said:
> 
> 
> 
> Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
> So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least I suppose they will try to set a pricing policy to have room for competition. Anyway, we'll have to wait for some oficial info.
Click to expand...

MadVR Envy is not out yet and when it will be nobody really know. The Radiance Pro is a product available today that’s getting better everyday and will be even better by the time MadVr Envy will be out. I value a lot the fact that the Radiance IS available now 🙂

Getting out with a new product is really hard and it’s a long road. Ask Lumagen or any other AV company. A new product need a lot of testing and modifications before being ready for prime time. 

My guess is MadVR will be a great product but it is not out yet and will not be for a while. It will take months before the first units and after that a beta phase, the official launch and then we will have to wait for first bugs to be iron out. All this will take time.

Also, it will not be free. It will be a high end product with a high end price.

Everybody is free to wait but the wait will be long and during that time, I will use my Radiance everyday.

Also, it’s hard to compare the Envy to the Radiance because we dont know what exactly the Envy will be able to do and the Radiance is also a moving target, getting better everyday with new firmwares.


----------



## audioguy

RickAVManiac said:


> MadVR Envy is not out yet and when it will be nobody really know. The Radiance Pro is a product available today that’s getting better everyday and will be even better by the time MadVr Envy will be out. I value a lot the fact that the Radiance IS available now 🙂
> 
> Getting out with a new product is really hard and it’s a long road. Ask Lumagen or any other AV company. A new product need a lot of testing and modifications before being ready for prime time.
> 
> My guess is MadVR will be a great product but it is not out yet and will not be for a while. It will take months before the first units and after that a beta phase, the official launch and then we will have to wait for first bugs to be iron out. All this will take time.
> 
> Also, it will not be free. It will be a high end product with a high end price.
> 
> Everybody is free to wait but the wait will be long and during that time, I will use my Radiance everyday.
> 
> Also, it’s hard to compare the Envy to the Radiance because we dont know what exactly the Envy will be able to do and the Radiance is also a moving target, getting better everyday with new firmwares.


Yes, yes, and yes !! It is a long way from a piece of software running in a PC to a production product running in a custom enclosure, Beta tested, released, documented, supported. Then finding and supporting other distribution channels. Will it happen? Probably. Will they have long term viability? Who knows.

I really do wish them well. I've started a small company (not audio) and it was way tougher (and way more costly) than I expected. It turned out successful but I ate a gigantic hole in my savings/networth before I turned the corner.


----------



## jrp

First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.

Now on to the fun stuff:

We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.

We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.

This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.

We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved. 

We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.

The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.

====== 

People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.

Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350. 

Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.

===== 

I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


----------



## thrang

jrp said:


> First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.
> 
> Now on to the fun stuff:
> 
> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
> 
> We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.
> 
> This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.
> 
> We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.
> 
> We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.
> 
> The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.
> 
> ======
> 
> People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.
> 
> Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.
> 
> Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.
> 
> =====
> 
> I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


Great to hear - thanks Jim/Patrick


----------



## Craig Peer

thrang said:


> Great to hear - thanks Jim/Patrick


I 2nd that - great news Jim !


----------



## appelz

jrp said:


> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.


I spent last weekend at the Lumagen Demo Theater (thank you, what an incredible weekend), and Jim showed off some of the particularly difficult scenes that were used to improve DTM. The improvements are significant. Not quite as significant as the improvements I made to the audio side of things Sunday night of course.


----------



## Praetorpwj

appelz said:


> jrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
> 
> 
> 
> I spent last weekend at the Lumagen Demo Theater (thank you, what an incredible weekend), and Jim showed off some of the particularly difficult scenes that were used to improve DTM. The improvements are significant. Not quite as significant as the improvements I made to the audio side of things Sunday night of course. /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif
Click to expand...

This is terrific news and very exciting as a two week old owner!

Could you pass on details of any of the test scenes as I would love to do a comparison on release?


----------



## jrp

appelz said:


> I spent last weekend at the Lumagen Demo Theater (thank you, what an incredible weekend), and Jim showed off some of the particularly difficult scenes that were used to improve DTM. The improvements are significant. Not quite as significant as the improvements I made to the audio side of things Sunday night of course.


Adam:

Yes you did and thanks a bunch. Huge audio improvement versus my remotely run Trinnov Altitude only audio calibration (which was already a big improvement in sound). Since Adam was on site he was able to take a rather spikie sub response and make it very smooth using the Altitude's Parametric EQ (PEQ). He even time aligned the subs to the main speakers.

Adam then did two-channel listening tests and was able to significantly improve two-channel performance, again using the Altitude's PEQ capability. While my two-channel was good before, after this part of the calibration I mentioned that I could now compare two-channel audio quality to my previous two-channel system that included Watt Puppies, and used Jeff Roland balanced pre-amp and power-amp.

I am now a firm believer in on-site audio (and of course video) tuning. Adam did a great job on the audio, and he is a recommended Lumagen video calibrator as well.


----------



## avkv

jrp said:


> First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.
> 
> Now on to the fun stuff:
> 
> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
> 
> We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.
> 
> This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.
> 
> We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.
> 
> We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.
> 
> The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.
> 
> ======
> 
> People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.
> 
> Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.
> 
> Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.
> 
> =====
> 
> I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


Thanks for all the great work; I am looking forward to the results!


----------



## audioguy

This new update news is quite exciting. Craig (Rounds) will be at my home on August 1st to calibrate everything and, I assume, install this most recent update. Since I have the same video system (almost) as Jim (Radiance, RS4500, Panamorph, but smaller screen with less gain), I expect to be blown away.

If the improvement is as significant as I hope, I have a friend who then may be a prospect for a new Lumagen as well.


----------



## jrp

venkatesh_m said:


> Question, if all we were to use is 4k SDR 2020 from the Lumagen with DTM would the 18Gbps outputs be necessary? What kind of data rates would be likely be used?


For HDR sources, most require an 18 GHz input on the Pro. There are some exceptions that work with a 9 GHz input for 4k24 HDR sources (Kaleidescape Strato, Panasonic UB900 and likely UB9000, Oppo 203). We recommend 18 GHz inputs for HDR sources, but you can choose either 18 GHz or 9 GHz for non-HDR sources since the material is compressed 8-bit and so even at 4k60 using 9 GHz 4:2:0 at 8-bit is enough.

====== 

For Radiance Pro outputs, I actually recommend 9 GHz outputs to customers, when they are not stuck on having 18 GHz output just because. Here's why:

The 9 GHz outputs have slower edge rates than the 18 GHz outputs. This is easier on what I refer to as "marginal HDMI input designs." We have seen some projectors that work with the 9 GHz output at 9 GHz, but *not* with the 18 GHz output running at 9 GHz. The only difference in this case is the output edge rate, and perhaps slightly different output EQ. This is an issue either in the projector's input PCB layout, or an issue in the HDMI input chip, or both (assuming a good HDMI cable). Interestingly TVs have better HDMI inputs than most projectors. The TVs we have tested all work well at 18 GHz.

Even if your projector has a good 18 GHz input (our RS4500 for example), it will almost certainly lock on to a 9 GHz signal faster than a 18 GHz signal.

For output at 4k24, there is no difference in the output data between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards, for our recommended 4:2:2 at 12-bit output mode. Zero. Both output card types use 12-bit 4:2:2. So you cannot see a difference between a 18 GHz output card and a 9 GHz output card for 4k24 movies and other 24 Hertz programs.

For SDR sources outputting at 4k60, since the SDR source is compressed 8-bit to start, with the Pro's excellent output dither which takes the 12-bit pipeline (which is up-sampled from the 8 bit source) and dithers it back down to 8-bit, in my opinion, there is no chance you would see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz outputs, even doing an A to B comparison.

That leaves 10-bit HDR10 outputting at 4k60 in the Lumagen recommended "HDR output in a SDR container." There is currently one 4k60 HDR movie that I am aware of. So we tested by outputting 4k24 HDR movies at 4k60 and compared the 8-bit 9 GHz 4:2:0 output from the Pro to the 12-bit 4:2:2 4k60 output from the Pro. I can't see a difference even on tough scenes. It used to be on a very few scenes there was a very small visible difference, but we improved the Radiance Pro output dither until there is IMO no visible difference for these. I have challenged a few technical video folks to prove me wrong and so far no takers, and this is for A to B comparisons. Since I have not evaluated all possible content I can only say than I have not found a difference. Since you would not be doing an A to B comparison, but rather watching video, I am very confident you would never see an issue caused by the output being 8-bit dithered rather than 12-bit. You might see content compression related issue, but these are not due to the Pro's output dither.

Another advantage of the dual 9 GHz output, is that both outputs in a 424X can carry both audio and video. We have seen a number of audio processors that apparently do not correctly implement all HDMI audio interrupts. So these products depend on the video changing to know when the audio has changed. With an audio only output the video does not change. We have worked hard to "kick" the audio processors awake when the Pro detects and audio change, but for some audio processors the only reliable work-around to their issue is to enable both audio and video on the output of the Pro that is connected to their input. With the 9 GHz output card in a 424X, you can do this, but with the 18 GHz output in the 424X, only one output can have both audio and video.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Prior professional calibration okay with new FW update?*



jrp said:


> First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.
> 
> Now on to the fun stuff:
> 
> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
> 
> We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.
> 
> This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.
> 
> We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.
> 
> We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.
> 
> The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.
> 
> ======
> 
> People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.
> 
> Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.
> 
> Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.
> 
> =====
> 
> I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


This may be a dumb question, but if I have had my Lumagen Radiance Pro fairly recently professionally calibrated - a few months ago - will this new FW update (and series of itterative updates) "break" that calibration?
Or will the original calibration still be full functional and these updates will optimize within that calibration -- sort of an interpolation?


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> This may be a dumb question, but if I have had my Lumagen Radiance Pro fairly recently professionally calibrated - a few months ago - will this new FW update (and series of itterative updates) "break" that calibration?
> 
> Or will the original calibration still be full functional and these updates will optimize within that calibration -- sort of an interpolation?




Exactly think the same +1 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirk44

Great News Jim, 
I plan a movie night with few other home theater geeks on Monday evening CET, wich is 9h + Portland time.
what time you usually put the updates online ?


----------



## SJHT

Mike_WI said:


> This may be a dumb question, but if I have had my Lumagen Radiance Pro fairly recently professionally calibrated - a few months ago - will this new FW update (and series of itterative updates) "break" that calibration?
> Or will the original calibration still be full functional and these updates will optimize within that calibration -- sort of an interpolation?


I was told it does not. Unless something has changed recently. SJ


----------



## Wayne Z

*Display Max Setting*

After the software release, I will have Dallas Dingle of Supercalibrations install it. I do have a question on the max display setting. I have a 2.35 aspect ration screen, but watch most things at 1.78. When I want to watch a film at 2.35, I zoom the lens on my Sony 885 projector; this obviously reduces the light output. So should we measure the nits at both 1.78 and 2.35 and then multiply those amounts by 4? We would then set the default using the 1.78 setting, and then adjust for the lower setting when watching something at 2.35.


----------



## bobof

Wayne Z said:


> After the software release, I will have Dallas Dingle of Supercalibrations install it. I do have a question on the max display setting. I have a 2.35 aspect ration screen, but watch most things at 1.78. When I want to watch a film at 2.35, I zoom the lens on my Sony 885 projector; this obviously reduces the light output. So should we measure the nits at both 1.78 and 2.35 and then multiply those amounts by 4? We would then set the default using the 1.78 setting, and then adjust for the lower setting when watching something at 2.35.


To really to it right you'd probably want to match the brightness for the two modes (via control of the laser level in the Sony).
If you're not wanting to do that (maybe you like big movies darker!) then you could set up two memories in the Lumagen and have different max display light settings for the both.
If neither of those appeal you could always just go for something somewhere in the middle.

Note that if you're doing 3DLUT correction and you have 2 modes with different laser levels you might want to have 2 separate 3DLUTs as the white balance can shift when changing laser level.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike_WI said:


> This may be a dumb question, but if I have had my Lumagen Radiance Pro fairly recently professionally calibrated - a few months ago - will this new FW update (and series of itterative updates) "break" that calibration?
> Or will the original calibration still be full functional and these updates will optimize within that calibration -- sort of an interpolation?


If the base calibration was done properly for the previous DTM, it will work fine with this one as well. The baseline did not change, just the settings in the Lumagen itself.



Wayne Z said:


> After the software release, I will have Dallas Dingle of Supercalibrations install it. I do have a question on the max display setting. I have a 2.35 aspect ration screen, but watch most things at 1.78. When I want to watch a film at 2.35, I zoom the lens on my Sony 885 projector; this obviously reduces the light output. So should we measure the nits at both 1.78 and 2.35 and then multiply those amounts by 4? We would then set the default using the 1.78 setting, and then adjust for the lower setting when watching something at 2.35.


I would do two separate memories. Memory A for 16x9 with the tone mapping setup properly for the light output and Memory B for 2.35 (with the aspect ratio changed properly in Styles) with another calibration for the other zoom position.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> Adam:
> 
> Yes you did and thanks a bunch. Huge audio improvement versus my remotely run Trinnov Altitude only audio calibration (which was already a big improvement in sound). Since Adam was on site he was able to take a rather spikie sub response and make it very smooth using the Altitude's Parametric EQ (PEQ). He even time aligned the subs to the main speakers.
> 
> Adam then did two-channel listening tests and was able to significantly improve two-channel performance, again using the Altitude's PEQ capability. While my two-channel was good before, after this part of the calibration I mentioned that I could now compare two-channel audio quality to my previous two-channel system that included Watt Puppies, and used Jeff Roland balanced pre-amp and power-amp.
> 
> I am now a firm believer in on-site audio (and of course video) tuning. Adam did a great job on the audio, and he is a recommended Lumagen video calibrator as well.


Good to know! Ken Whitcomb did a phenomenal job setting up my Sony VW5000 and Radiance Pro Dec 2017. However, my theatre renovation/upgrade starts late next week - will take awhile - will include moving projector back a few feet, adding a Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, and enclosing the projector with a cooling system as well - so will need some video touchup. Will be setting up Adam to do his magic for my Trinnov Altitude 32 and audio system so may as well have him tweak the video at the same time! GREAT!


----------



## appelz

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Good to know! Ken Whitcomb did a phenomenal job setting up my Sony VW5000 and Radiance Pro Dec 2017. However, my theatre renovation/upgrade starts late next week - will take awhile - will include moving projector back a few feet, adding a Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, and enclosing the projector with a cooling system as well - so will need some video touchup. Will be setting up Adam to do his magic for my Trinnov Altitude 32 and audio system so may as well have him tweak the video at the same time! GREAT!


Audio is still my primary passion, so although I am willing and able, Ken will probably do a better job, with a more critical eye on the video.


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on updating to the upcoming DTM enhancement release:

- The update does not over-write or change your configuration.

- You do not need any re-calibration if you already have a good calibration.

- You should be able to leave the Display Max Light (in CMS1->HDR Mapping) the same.

- You should be able to use your current HDR parameters. However, you might want to set the parameters to default and start tweaking again if you are so inclined since the curves are slightly different with this upcoming release, but not by much so your current settings should be fine. I believe the differences should only improve your image without any change in parameters.

- Even though the update does not change your configuration, the probability is minuscule, but not zero, that the update could go way wrong. I recommend always downloading your configuration to a PC (remember to save it to a file after downloading it) before doing an update using the config reader here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities. Make sure to use the latest Rev 1.90 of the config reader so it works with the Pro (this is the same revision that always has been used with the Pro). 

- While Pat prefers to do a normal update, I often prefer to do a Boot Mode Update. For the Boot Mode Update you set up to update as normal (COM Port, and BAUD Rate = 230K), but pull and re-inset power to the Pro and (leaving the Pro off) start the update within 10 seconds. The reason I like Boot Mode Update is there is no chance HDMI interrupts or other processor functions might somehow interfere with the update since the only thing running is the boot loader. The reason Pat likes the normal update method is that it has had more testing. However, I have not had any issues doing Boot Mode Updates, so I think it is safe and a good option for doing updates. Then again I often just do normal updates since it is quicker if only the software has changed and the update uses the same FPGA as the update being replaced.

- If an update fails to complete, or shows errors, then you must do a Boot Mode Update since the update might have only partially completed and left the code corrupted. We have had a few cases of an incomplete update preventing the unit from booting correctly and preventing the unit from updating correctly using a normal update.


----------



## jrp

Dirk44 said:


> Great News Jim,
> I plan a movie night with few other home theater geeks on Monday evening CET, wich is 9h + Portland time.
> what time you usually put the updates online ?


email me at support at Lumagen and I can send you the test release in case we do not post the public release early enough for you on Monday.

There is also a chance it will be posted on our website by Sunday.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

appelz said:


> Audio is still my primary passion, so although I am willing and able, Ken will probably do a better job, with a more critical eye on the video.


Adam, as always your honesty and willingness to share your expertise is so much appreciated.


----------



## A7mad78

Hope that today we can download the new update  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike Garrett

riddle said:


> I still don't know what to buy, MadVR ENVY can be very interesting solution for an interesting price. *But Lumanagen Radiance PRO have currently very good support but at a higher price.* I think i will have to wait for some comparison.





bobof said:


> Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
> So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.


Pricing has not been posted anywhere. For MadVR to do its thing, it has to have an HTPC with a good (expensive) video card. If that is the route MadVR goes, how could that be cheaper than Lumagen using software on a chip?


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> Pricing has not been posted anywhere. For MadVR to do its thing, it has to have an HTPC with a good (expensive) video card. If that is the route MadVR goes, how could that be cheaper than Lumagen using software on a chip?


The "HTPC" could be some kind of stripped down Unix box, custom enclosure, and some custom (but still probably expensive) video card. I HAVE to believe that the Envy product will be some less than the Lumagen, else they are in deep weeds before they leave the gate. 

But as I have said (way) more than once, hardware costs (and price) notwithstanding, there is the issue of testing, long term support (e.g. distribution of new firmware/software updates), product documentation, customer service, finding new distribution channels and training them, etc, etc, etc. It is way more than making some wonderful software run in a box. Given my experience with "startups", and failures in this industry in particular (even from well known and previously viable companies), I would wait until the Envy is in the field a few years prior to me investing in one.

And, at the end of the day, we still don't know if it will be better than, worse than, or the same performance as the Lumagen.


----------



## Teejoo

Mike Garrett said:


> Pricing has not been posted anywhere. For MadVR to do its thing, it has to have an HTPC with a good (expensive) video card. If that is the route MadVR goes, how could that be cheaper than *Lumagen using software on a chip*?


Is Lumagan also analyzing each frame to optimize tonemapping? If so, it would be even more impressive that they can do that with a single chip.


----------



## audioguy

Teejoo said:


> Is Lumagan also analyzing each frame to optimize tonemapping? If so, it would be even more impressive that they can do that with a single chip.


It is either each frame or each scene, but yes!


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> The "HTPC" could be some kind of stripped down Unix box, custom enclosure, and some custom (but still probably expensive) video card. I HAVE to believe that the Envy product will be some less than the Lumagen, else they are in deep weeds before they leave the gate.
> 
> But as I have said (way) more than once, hardware costs (and price) notwithstanding, there is the issue of testing, long term support (e.g. distribution of new firmware/software updates), product documentation, customer service, finding new distribution channels and training them, etc, etc, etc. It is way more than making some wonderful software run in a box. Given my experience with "startups", and failures in this industry in particular (even from well known and previously viable companies), I would wait until the Envy is in the field a few years prior to me investing in one.
> 
> And, at the end of the day, we still don't know if it will be better than, worse than, or the same performance as the Lumagen.


Which would be cheaper a Lumagen that uses an FPGA or a Lumagen that used an HTPC with high end 4K video card? Because that is basically what you are comparing, if MadVR is using a PC.


----------



## Yoxxy

Mike Garrett said:


> Which would be cheaper a Lumagen that uses an FPGA or a Lumagen that used an HTPC with high end 4K video card? Because that is basically what you are comparing, if MadVR is using a PC.


Does the Lumagen not also color correct for the projector? I do not believe Madvr has anywhere near the color correction capabilities of the Lumagen. It may be better at DTM, I would argue it appears very close; however, the Lumagen was built for the color correction and DTM added. Madvr was built for upscaling and then DTM was added.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Yoxxy said:


> Does the Lumagen not also color correct for the projector? I do not believe Madvr has anywhere near the color correction capabilities of the Lumagen. It may be better at DTM, I would argue it appears very close; however, the Lumagen was built for the color correction and DTM added. Madvr was built for upscaling and then DTM was added.


That has nothing to do with the hardware differences that I listed. If MadVR is using a HTPC with high end video card, vs an FPGA, then there is a huge price differnce in hardware cost.


----------



## Craig Peer

I think the new firmware release must be delayed so it will arrive the same day my copy of " Alita " Battle Angel " on 4K BR gets here !


----------



## A7mad78

Craig Peer said:


> I think the new firmware release must be delayed so it will arrive the same day my copy of " Alita " Battle Angel " on 4K BR gets here !






I don’t count how many time today and yesterday I go to lumagen website to look hope today 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> Pricing has not been posted anywhere. For MadVR to do its thing, it has to have an HTPC with a good (expensive) video card. If that is the route MadVR goes, how could that be cheaper than Lumagen using software on a chip?


Small (seemingly pedantic) point. Lumagen isn't software on a chip (well, there is some software driving the menus and config stuff and other dull things). It is effectively custom hardware which can be field upgraded.

FPGAs are hardware that just happens to be re-wireable. It is an important distinction. Effectively when the FPGA powers on the first thing it does is look for its bitstream of configuration information. This is a "wiring diagram" for the FPGA. Once this is loaded it doesn't change at runtime, it is effectively at that point a piece of custom hardware whose functional blocks have almost entirely been designed by the staff at Lumagen (depending on chip there will be some or other "hard" functionality included in the chip, too, to be taken advantage of in an application or not if they're not useful).

Many very hard problems are attacked using FPGAs as this configurability allows the achievement of levels of efficiency not possible with GPU based solutions. There is no clear "it's a fast GPU so it must be more capable than xyz FPGA solution" as there are so many degrees of freedom around implementation techniques, designer skill, tool and architecture suitability, etc.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Looks like it's out

Beta 071919- Improvements to Dynamic & Static Tone Mapping as well as some cases of input->output color conversion. Fix for Alt-Prev command sometimes leaving output off. Fix for not showing P3 on output colorspace when set for it. Added a true "Off" setting for intensity mapping enable and the previous "Off" setting which was really a simplified conversion from HDR to SDR was renamed to "Default". Fix for rs232 status report of SDR/HDR not always being reported. Fix for Copying input HDR parameters to other memories. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Craig Peer

I have it installed in my Radiance Pro. I will try it later tonight ( pool time first ) !


----------



## jbrinegar

Looks terrific on uhd discs. I am getting some odd artifacts on 4k iTunes movies on my apple 4k tv with the new firmware. 

There’s a flickering going on in some dark scenes. Note my jvc DI is off. It’s easy to see at about 54min in the interrogation scene over Morgan freeman’s face in oblivion

Also screen flickering in the opening of Jurassic world 2 just as the sub’s lights come on and it comes into view. Can anyone else compare on their Apple TV?

Doesn’t happen on discs (or Vudu for that matter, and didn’t happen on previous firmware). 

Short of that it looks brilliant! Must be a weird iTunes bug.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

I updated the firmware!
and just got the lumagen radiance pro 4240. I have the BenQ LK990 I just upgraded from the LK970 (sooo much brighter)

I'm assuming, On, with a maxlight setting, I have the BenQ LK990 I think maxlight of 700 is right? and Gamma2LUT SDR?

On the projector, do I just start with cinema mode and then go thru lumagen settings for everything? Projector has bright, vivid, Presn modes. Does the lumagen automatically adjust everything if I switch from cinema mode to say bright? trying to figure out which mode is best to switch to during the day with a ton of ambient light.

Under CMS0 I have colorspace as SDR709 HDR flag off and auto convert. is this right? since this projector is only rec 709. Under CMS1, also SDR709 hdr flag off and auto convert?

So with the lumagen, basically the projector never goes into it's HDR mode correct? Only bummer is this projector in HDR mode, you could +1, +2 HDR Brightness which makes the pictures super bright for daytime viewing.

Question is I usually have 3 settings. 1. super bright, daytime, lots of ambient light viewing. 2. bright late afternoon, evening with lights on viewing. 3. dark room no ambient light.

Do I do the above by changing "picture mode" Bright, vivid, and cinema? and then save corresponding CMS? So CMS2, cms 3 and CMS0? Or do I only change the lamp brightness.? I have smart eco with cinema mode for dark rooms (apparently dimming happens in smart eco)

thanks!


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> I updated the firmware!
> and just got the lumagen radiance pro 4240. I have the BenQ LK990 I just upgraded from the LK970 (sooo much brighter)
> 
> I'm assuming, On, with a maxlight setting, I have the BenQ LK990 I think maxlight of 700 is right? and Gamma2LUT SDR?
> 
> On the projector, do I just start with cinema mode and then go thru lumagen settings for everything? Projector has bright, vivid, Presn modes. Does the lumagen automatically adjust everything if I switch from cinema mode to say bright? trying to figure out which mode is best to switch to during the day with a ton of ambient light.
> 
> Under CMS0 I have colorspace as SDR709 HDR flag off and auto convert. is this right? since this projector is only rec 709. Under CMS1, also SDR709 hdr flag off and auto convert?
> 
> So with the lumagen, basically the projector never goes into it's HDR mode correct? Only bummer is this projector in HDR mode, you could +1, +2 HDR Brightness which makes the pictures super bright for daytime viewing.
> 
> Question is I usually have 3 settings. 1. super bright, daytime, lots of ambient light viewing. 2. bright late afternoon, evening with lights on viewing. 3. dark room no ambient light.
> 
> Do I do the above by changing "picture mode" Bright, vivid, and cinema? and then save corresponding CMS? So CMS2, cms 3 and CMS0? Or do I only change the lamp brightness.? I have smart eco with cinema mode for dark rooms (apparently dimming happens in smart eco)
> 
> thanks!


To be honest the nature of your questions makes me think that you'll only scratch the surface of the capabilities of the Lumagen without getting a pro calibrator (experienced with Lumagen units) who understands all the ins and outs.

To answer some of your points:
The Lumagen can be set up to have different configuration memories, which can be used for different viewing environments and / or different output modes on a projector / and or other purposes (different screen aspects, etc etc)
The Lumagen won't receive info about what mode the PJ is in. Such things would usually be dealt with at the system integration level - so you might have a complex control system which tied in blinds, lighting, projector modes and memory selection (maybe automatically depending on time of day) - or you might have something simpler with a macro on a Harmony remote, or simpler still, selecting the modes manually on the respective remote controls for the projector and Lumagen.
Ideally when using different modes in the projector which may have different colour gamuts etc you would have each mode profiled using 3DLUT software and a probe to allow the Lumagen to accurately map to the display within the constraints of the display mode.

If I was trying to do this without any test gear or software, my starter would be to find out (probably in the projector specific threads) what are the most neutral settings for the projector that track closest to a particular standard, and then set up the Lumagen so that CMS 0 and CMS1 are set to output that standard, using the Lumagen to map the SDR and HDR into that standard as necessary, adjusting the max light to the ball park you mention and trying either side a bit to see how the image looks in a variety of scenes. Further up there is a presentation from Jim which has a lot of good detail on setting up.

Good luck!


----------



## *Harry*

bobof said:


> Small (seemingly pedantic) point. Lumagen isn't software on a chip (well, there is some software driving the menus and config stuff and other dull things). It is effectively custom hardware which can be field upgraded.
> 
> FPGAs are hardware that just happens to be re-wireable. It is an important distinction. Effectively when the FPGA powers on the first thing it does is look for its bitstream of configuration information. This is a "wiring diagram" for the FPGA. Once this is loaded it doesn't change at runtime, it is effectively at that point a piece of custom hardware whose functional blocks have almost entirely been designed by the staff at Lumagen (depending on chip there will be some or other "hard" functionality included in the chip, too, to be taken advantage of in an application or not if they're not useful).
> 
> Many very hard problems are attacked using FPGAs as this configurability allows the achievement of levels of efficiency not possible with GPU based solutions. There is no clear "it's a fast GPU so it must be more capable than xyz FPGA solution" as there are so many degrees of freedom around implementation techniques, designer skill, tool and architecture suitability, etc.


Good explanation!

In addition it's worth to say: Programming a FPGA is very, very complex (especially such a big one inside the Pro Series). You have to deal with exact timings, clock domains and many other special things. Beside of that you can implement an emulated CPU inside the FPGA (I think the menu system takes use of it).

To be able for realize such a very complex thing like the Pro Series, an FPGA programming engineer first has to visit special courses. But that's far not enough - many years of practical experience are needed in addition. So my big respect goes to Jim and his professional team - you've done an outstanding work!


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> To be honest the nature of your questions makes me think that you'll only scratch the surface of the capabilities of the Lumagen *without getting a pro calibrator* (experienced with Lumagen units) who understands all the ins and outs.


I too, recommend the OP hire a calibrator, simply based upon the questions he asked.

Someone recently posted that the Lumagen was the Trinnov of video. And, as with the Trinnov, without a fairly deep understanding of the subject (Trinnov = audio; Lumagen = video), and the necessary tools and knowledge of how to use those tools associated with the product, the chances of getting even close to optimum results are pretty much, zero. 

The guys that know how to help the end user get what they paid for out of the Lumagen, don't come cheap. But at the end of the day, the Lumagen isn't cheap either.


----------



## SSnarski

Craig Peer said:


> I have it installed in my Radiance Pro. I will try it later tonight ( pool time first ) !





Craig, i too loaded the update last night and also have the JVC RS4500/Lumagen/DCR Lens combo, but you would have had 3 extra hours for the time zone difference once you got done in the pool to review,
The new firmware went through without a hitch, i put in Shazam 4k BR disc before new the download and then just after as a quick test and i could immediately visualize a difference, dramatic enough for the eyes to see without specialized tools, picture is def. more vivid (brighter HDR pic for sure) - sort or changing the Dolby Vision modes on an OLED TV if you are playing a DV 4K Disc - Maybe just because it is new and or different but the picture to me just looks more sharp and clear, esp in the darker scenes - not that it looked bad before, it was already spectacular - i skipped around to different parts of the movie for reference - Chad B calibrated my whole system a while back, but this update on the lumagen adds something special for sure
I will be following the thread to hear some more opinions on the update



I have several new 4K BR Discs that i have not watched just waiting on the update - Alita Battle Angel for one - i watched it on my LG OLED in my living room last Tuesday when it came out - but i just don't have the audio in the living room anymore since i stole all the audio equipment and speakers and put them in the theater room.


----------



## Craig Peer

SSnarski said:


> Craig, i too loaded the update last night and also have the JVC RS4500/Lumagen/DCR Lens combo, but you would have had 3 extra hours for the time zone difference once you got done in the pool to review,
> The new firmware went through without a hitch, i put in Shazam 4k BR disc before new the download and then just after as a quick test and i could immediately visualize a difference, dramatic enough for the eyes to see without specialized tools, picture is def. more vivid (brighter HDR pic for sure) - sort or changing the Dolby Vision modes on an OLED TV if you are playing a DV 4K Disc - Maybe just because it is new and or different but the picture to me just looks more sharp and clear, esp in the darker scenes - not that it looked bad before, it was already spectacular - i skipped around to different parts of the movie for reference - Chad B calibrated my whole system a while back, but this update on the lumagen adds something special for sure
> I will be following the thread to hear some more opinions on the update
> 
> 
> 
> I have several new 4K BR Discs that i have not watched just waiting on the update - Alita Battle Angel for one - i watched it on my LG OLED in my living room last Tuesday when it came out - but i just don't have the audio in the living room anymore since i stole all the audio equipment and speakers and put them in the theater room.




I only had time for a brief test with “ Pacific Rim “, which looked spectacular. But I’ll need to run a bunch of discs to really test it. I’ll have time now that the Tour de France is over. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

*Harry* said:


> Good explanation!
> 
> In addition it's worth to say: Programming a FPGA is very, very complex (especially such a big one inside the Pro Series). You have to deal with exact timings, clock domains and many other special things. Beside of that you can implement an emulated CPU inside the FPGA (I think the menu system takes use of it).
> 
> To be able for realize such a very complex thing like the Pro Series, an FPGA programming engineer first has to visit special courses. But that's far not enough - many years of practical experience are needed in addition. So my big respect goes to Jim and his professional team - you've done an outstanding work!


Fun fact; the new JVC 4k projectors actually have a large FPGA - according to Cine4Home, the Altera Arria 10 10AX048H3F34E2SG with a retail of $2000USD (not that anyone sensible pays retail for an FPGA)... 
I don't know which part Lumagen are using in the Pro, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to get "Lumagen Inside" for these projectors?


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> I don't know which part Lumagen are using in the Pro, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to get "Lumagen Inside" for these projectors?


Now that is a great idea. Jim could sell license rights to those guys!! The high end projector companies (Sony, JVC, Christie, etc) could offer it as an upgrade option. And since they sell more projectors than Lumagen sells Lumagens, they could probably get better pricing on the parts. And no additional costs for enclosures, or power supplies or .....

Sure wouldn't help me directly, but sure would help Lumagen and therefore help me long term.

Heck of an idea.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Fun fact; the new JVC 4k projectors actually have a large FPGA - according to Cine4Home, the Altera Arria 10 10AX048H3F34E2SG with a retail of $2000USD (not that anyone sensible pays retail for an FPGA)...
> I don't know which part Lumagen are using in the Pro, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to get "Lumagen Inside" for these projectors?


That's actually a pretty good sized FPGA and there might be some room left depending exactly what gets done in the FPGA. We are always open to discuss possibilities.

I have been told by a number of people that *every* current projector needs a Radiance Pro in front of it to get the best picture. So, adding Lumagen technology inside a projector certainly makes sense to me.

Honestly I am surprised a projector manufacturer has not tried to buy us up. They would get Lumagen technology and (if they want) could prevent other projector companies from benefiting from Lumagen technology. Two birds, one stone. Perhaps it's "NIH" (not invented here), or perhaps they just are not interested.


----------



## *Harry*

Hey Jim ... you do not need getting swallowed from any company ... your skills + knowledge is good enough to come up with your own Lumagen Projector - your beast would beat them all!


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> Perhaps it's "NIH" (not invented here), or perhaps they just are not interested.


Or perhaps they don't really understand the value that it brings. In the days prior to DTM, one "might" argue the value proposition of your product (I was one of those). But now, the value is so very "black and white" (pardon the use of such an analogy) and obvious to anyone.

Possible recommendation: Find a partner to work with at the upcoming CEDIA who was planning on using, for example, a JVC projector. Have JVC calibrate their projector and then you (or someone you recommend) do a calibration using the Lumagen. Find some material that will allow the projector to use its Tone Mapping and switch between it and your product doing DTM. EVERYONE will see the difference. Then see if one of your contacts (maybe someone from AV Sciences) can contact some higher up person in JVC and give them a private demo. If possible, do the same with someone who will be using a Sony projector. 

Who knows?


----------



## Kris Deering

jbrinegar said:


> Looks terrific on uhd discs. I am getting some odd artifacts on 4k iTunes movies on my apple 4k tv with the new firmware.
> 
> Thereâ€™️s a flickering going on in some dark scenes. Note my jvc DI is off. Itâ€™️s easy to see at about 54min in the interrogation scene over Morgan freemanâ€™️s face in oblivion
> 
> Also screen flickering in the opening of Jurassic world 2 just as the subâ€™️s lights come on and it comes into view. Can anyone else compare on their Apple TV?
> 
> Doesnâ€™️t happen on discs (or Vudu for that matter, and didnâ€™️t happen on previous firmware).
> 
> Short of that it looks brilliant! Must be a weird iTunes bug.


Watched both of these scenes via my ATV4K. No issues at all. Not even a hint of flicker seen.


----------



## dinamigym

Watching Endgame on KScape new firmware...it looks off the charts good!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cappy1

*Harry* said:


> Hey Jim ... you do not need getting swallowed from any company ... your skills + knowledge is good enough to come up with your own Lumagen Projector - your beast would beat them all!


Modify production projectors and sell them like Runco once did.


----------



## jbrinegar

Kris Deering said:


> Watched both of these scenes via my ATV4K. No issues at all. Not even a hint of flicker seen.


Thanks for checking Kris. It must be in my setup then, not sure why it was ok before, and why it doesnt show 
up on discs or on vudu. 

Ive got apple 4k tv to lumagen with 6 ft cert prem monoprice, then to my rs2000 with a 15 ft cert prem monoprice. 

DI turned off.

Im using match frame rate/match dynamic range on apple tv. HDR2020 to SDR(H)2020 on lumagen.

I can try switching out cables. Any other suggestions for troubleshooting?


----------



## Kris Deering

Those cables should be fine. If you want to see if it is Lumagen specific, you can try plugging the ATV directly into the JVC and watch the same scenes. Does it happen with JVC's tone mapping as well? If it doesn't, and it does the same thing when you go back through the Lumagen, it may be a settings issue in the Lumagen itself.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> *Or perhaps they don't really understand the value that it brings.* In the days prior to DTM, one "might" argue the value proposition of your product (I was one of those). But now, the value is so very "black and white" (pardon the use of such an analogy) and obvious to anyone.
> 
> Possible recommendation: Find a partner to work with at the upcoming CEDIA who was planning on using, for example, a JVC projector. Have JVC calibrate their projector and then you (or someone you recommend) do a calibration using the Lumagen. Find some material that will allow the projector to use its Tone Mapping and switch between it and your product doing DTM. EVERYONE will see the difference. Then see if one of your contacts (maybe someone from AV Sciences) can contact some higher up person in JVC and give them a private demo. If possible, do the same with someone who will be using a Sony projector.
> 
> Who knows?


My JVC rep just visited my theater and saw the Lumagen Radiance Pro DTM ( previous firmware though - which worked quite well overall I thought ) on my RS4500, and my Panamorph DCR lens. He certainly has seen a lot of RS4500's. He said he has never seen one that looked as good. And he stated he can't imagine I could get a better picture from anything coming out in the foreseeable future. So at least one person at JVC understands the value picture wise. I'm sure he will mention it to other folks at JVC.  We compared the DTM to the new JVC tone mapping firmware. He had a UB9000 and I have a UB820. We each had a copy of Mad Max on 4K BR, and GOTG2 on 4K BR, so we could flip back and forth between the two players with the discs in sync ( the UB9000 was run direct to the RS4500's HDMI2 input and my UB820 through the Lumagen to HDMI 1 ). The Lumagen had the better looking HDR. And that was before this new firmware !


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> My JVC rep just visited my theater and saw the Lumagen Radiance Pro DTM ( previous firmware though - which worked quite well overall I thought ) on my RS4500, and my Panamorph DCR lens. He certainly has seen a lot of RS4500's. He said he has never seen one that looked as good. And he stated he can't imagine I could get a better picture from anything coming out in the foreseeable future. So at least one person at JVC understands the value picture wise. I'm sure he will mention it to other folks at JVC.  We compared the DTM to the new JVC tone mapping firmware. He had a UB9000 and I have a UB820. We each had a copy of Mad Max on 4K BR, and GOTG2 on 4K BR, so we could flip back and forth between the two players with the discs in sync ( the UB9000 was run direct to the RS4500's HDMI2 input and my UB820 through the Lumagen to HDMI 1 ). The Lumagen had the better looking HDR. And that was before this new firmware !


Thanks great. Doing something in a place like CEDIA would be a bit more "formal" and hopefully get the right folks from JVC/Sony to see it!!


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Thanks great. Doing something in a place like CEDIA would be a bit more "formal" and hopefully get the right folks from JVC/Sony to see it!!


Right there is one of life's great challenges - getting a properly set up demo at Cedia !


----------



## gadgetfreaky

audioguy said:


> I too, recommend the OP hire a calibrator, simply based upon the questions he asked.
> 
> Someone recently posted that the Lumagen was the Trinnov of video. And, as with the Trinnov, without a fairly deep understanding of the subject (Trinnov = audio; Lumagen = video), and the necessary tools and knowledge of how to use those tools associated with the product, the chances of getting even close to optimum results are pretty much, zero.
> 
> The guys that know how to help the end user get what they paid for out of the Lumagen, don't come cheap. But at the end of the day, the Lumagen isn't cheap either.


Yes, I plan on hiring someone, but wanted to get it up and running and learn a little bit first. Who in LA (i'm near LAX) would be good? i also wanted my sound system calibrated as well. I'm hoping Nyal Mellor from Acoustic Frontiers can come down since I hired him to design the specs of the room for sound and picture. He was awesome btw.


----------



## jrp

*Harry* said:


> Hey Jim ... you do not need getting swallowed from any company ... your skills + knowledge is good enough to come up with your own Lumagen Projector - your beast would beat them all!


Thanks to everyone suggesting that Lumagen do our own projector and that it would be the best. We appreciate your support.

It would be a major undertaking both from an engineering and financial point of view. We actually considered trying to do a Lumagen projector in the 1080p days. I decided we did not have the infrastructure or resources to keep up on the projector end (even if just modifications), and I think the warranty and product support (projectors seem to need a significant amount of these) would have killed Lumagen. So in hind sight I believe I made the right decision then, and I think the answer is the same now. That is "stick to our knitting."

So unless a company with the infrastructure, and financials, buys Lumagen for their projector products, I am happy being the best possible "front end electronics" for every projector on the planet.


----------



## Mike Garrett

I have a 4242 on its way to me. Trying to decide if I want to run all sources to the Lumagen and then audio to my processor or place lumagen between my processor and RS3000. If I run all sources to the Lumagen, then no risk of prepro messing with the video, but I give up on screen info from prepro. If I run it between prepro and projector, I can temporary place the Lumagen in the room with the projector. That will allow the Lumagen remote to be used. if placed before the prepro, then will have to teach the needed Lumagen functions to my Harmony.


----------



## SJHT

Mike Garrett said:


> I have a 4242 on its way to me. Trying to decide if I want to run all sources to the Lumagen and then audio to my processor or place lumagen between my processor and RS3000. If I run all sources to the Lumagen, then no risk of prepro messing with the video, but I give up on screen info from prepro. If I run it between prepro and projector, I can temporary place the Lumagen in the room with the projector. That will allow the Lumagen remote to be used. if placed before the prepro, then will have to teach the needed Lumagen functions to my Harmony.


I have everything going into the Lumagen as that is the recommended setup. But, my remote system displays all needed info, so I don’t need the OSD.... Also, when PIP is implemented this will allow overlaying the OSD of the audio processor. However, not sure the 4242 will do PIP... You can also run the audio output into a second HDMI input on your RS3000 if you need to use the OSD for some reason. Most web GUIs also do that. SJ


----------



## gadgetfreaky

For Global Video, 709 CMS Mode what setting? Linear?


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> For Global Video, 709 CMS Mode what setting? Linear?


Set this to "Source"


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> That's actually a pretty good sized FPGA and there might be some room left depending exactly what gets done in the FPGA. We are always open to discuss possibilities.
> 
> I have been told by a number of people that *every* current projector needs a Radiance Pro in front of it to get the best picture. So, adding Lumagen technology inside a projector certainly makes sense to me.
> 
> Honestly I am surprised a projector manufacturer has not tried to buy us up. They would get Lumagen technology and (if they want) could prevent other projector companies from benefiting from Lumagen technology. Two birds, one stone. Perhaps it's "NIH" (not invented here), or perhaps they just are not interested.


I think they use it for much the same stuff, just not as well. There are lots of examples of this kind of thing, such as the Autocal SW, which can only talk to low-rent meters when there are a ton of products out there that can manage almost the full range of meters in the market - could have just done a deal with one of them!

I'm almost certain that the colour correction they do with autocal is internally a 3DLUT (if you sniff the network traffic to the unit during autocal you get an exact cube sized set of values being sent over) but then they don't expose any really useful interface and rely on creating a cube with a tiny number of measurements. Likewise for their own auto tone mapping, scaling, etc etc.

So arguably they could swap out a lot of things to make room for better implementations.

Even if it were "full" and a Lumagen IP core had to go in as additional stuff, the F34 BGA 1152 package on Arria 10 goes up to larger models with twice the amount of logic elements which I believe are pin compatible, so there might not be much to do to get more capacity. 

But with most these things it's usually not a technical battle, and more of a commercial and corporate culture thing... I know Darbee had some amount of success licensing their IP core to 3rd parties (at least getting it in, not sure if very profitably). Though I don't think they got it into any Japanese companies, who are still dominating the HT projector market.

----

Anyway, I spent a little while last night watching some things through the new tone mapping, and I must say it does look stunning. I'm pretty sure all the suboptimal decisions I'd noticed previously appear to be gone from what I could see. In Mad Max for example the back of truck fight scene works really well without any obvious jarring changes in skyline levels. Really well done!


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Anyone coming to or near LA near LAX that really knows the Lumagen and ideally also has calibrated it with the BenQ LK990?


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> A couple comments on updating to the upcoming DTM enhancement release:
> 
> 
> 
> - The update does not over-write or change your configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> - You do not need any re-calibration if you already have a good calibration.
> 
> 
> 
> - You should be able to leave the Display Max Light (in CMS1->HDR Mapping) the same.
> 
> 
> 
> - You should be able to use your current HDR parameters. However, you might want to set the parameters to default and start tweaking again if you are so inclined since the curves are slightly different with this upcoming release, but not by much so your current settings should be fine. I believe the differences should only improve your image without any change in parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> - Even though the update does not change your configuration, the probability is minuscule, but not zero, that the update could go way wrong. I recommend always downloading your configuration to a PC (remember to save it to a file after downloading it) before doing an update using the config reader here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities. Make sure to use the latest Rev 1.90 of the config reader so it works with the Pro (this is the same revision that always has been used with the Pro).
> 
> 
> 
> - While Pat prefers to do a normal update, I often prefer to do a Boot Mode Update. For the Boot Mode Update you set up to update as normal (COM Port, and BAUD Rate = 230K), but pull and re-inset power to the Pro and (leaving the Pro off) start the update within 10 seconds. The reason I like Boot Mode Update is there is no chance HDMI interrupts or other processor functions might somehow interfere with the update since the only thing running is the boot loader. The reason Pat likes the normal update method is that it has had more testing. However, I have not had any issues doing Boot Mode Updates, so I think it is safe and a good option for doing updates. Then again I often just do normal updates since it is quicker if only the software has changed and the update uses the same FPGA as the update being replaced.
> 
> 
> 
> - If an update fails to complete, or shows errors, then you must do a Boot Mode Update since the update might have only partially completed and left the code corrupted. We have had a few cases of an incomplete update preventing the unit from booting correctly and preventing the unit from updating correctly using a normal update.




When update the lumagen via Boot Mode do we need to remove the hdmi cable or it save to do tje update in boot mode and the cables remain in place ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> I have a 4242 on its way to me. Trying to decide if I want to run all sources to the Lumagen and then audio to my processor or place lumagen between my processor and RS3000. If I run all sources to the Lumagen, then no risk of prepro messing with the video, but I give up on screen info from prepro. If I run it between prepro and projector, I can temporary place the Lumagen in the room with the projector. That will allow the Lumagen remote to be used. if placed before the prepro, then will have to teach the needed Lumagen functions to my Harmony.


Mike:

(1) Put the sources connected directly to the Lumagen

(2) My equipment is behind my screen wall so the IR remote sensor of the Lumagen is useless. I bought one of *THESE*, and problem solved. I have the IR pick up sensor from this device come into the room through the front wall (where my L+R speaker cables come through), and attached it to front wall below the screen. Works perfect.


----------



## SJHT

gadgetfreaky said:


> Anyone coming to or near LA near LAX that really knows the Lumagen and ideally also has calibrated it with the BenQ LK990?


You can reach out to Lumagen support and get a list of calibrators that know the Lumagen product. Sometimes calibrators travel and you can get them to stop by during their visits. Kris Deering visited me during one of his trips to my area. SJ


----------



## audioguy

gadgetfreaky said:


> Anyone coming to or near LA near LAX that really knows the Lumagen and ideally also has calibrated it with the BenQ LK990?


*Kris Deering* and *Craig Rounds* both travel the US doing exactly what you want. There are others as well. 

Both of those guys also sell the Lumagen as part of a product/calibration package. Click on their links above and it will take you to their web sites where you can find contact information.


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> Mike:
> 
> (1) Put the sources connected directly to the Lumagen
> 
> (2) My equipment is behind my screen wall so the IR remote sensor of the Lumagen is useless. I bought one of *THESE*, and problem solved. I have the IR pick up sensor from this device come into the room through the front wall (where my L+R speaker cables come through), and attached it to front wall below the screen. Works perfect.


My equipment is located one floor below my theater, so I use RF. But I do have that very same IR extender sitting somewhere. I bought it for my inlaws and they ended up going a different route. May temporary hook it up so that actual Lumagen remote can be used for setup.


----------



## dinamigym

Mike Garrett said:


> My equipment is located one floor below my theater, so I use RF. But I do have that very same IR extender sitting somewhere. I bought it for my inlaws and they ended up going a different route. May temporary hook it up so that actual Lumagen remote can be used for setup.




RS232 Lumagen control also works very well if you have a third party remote/control system. I currently control with RTI and RS232 but I’ve also controlled with ELAN G RS232 in past. Both work real well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> I have a 4242 on its way to me. Trying to decide if I want to run all sources to the Lumagen and then audio to my processor or place lumagen between my processor and RS3000. If I run all sources to the Lumagen, then no risk of prepro messing with the video, but I give up on screen info from prepro. If I run it between prepro and projector, I can temporary place the Lumagen in the room with the projector. That will allow the Lumagen remote to be used. if placed before the prepro, then will have to teach the needed Lumagen functions to my Harmony.


Do I remember right and you have an electric mask screen? If so you definitely want to try and get Auto Aspect hooked up to it; it is superb. I have a Raspberry PI programmed as a basic control system watching the output of the Lumagen and switching to whcihever HDR mode I want and adjusting the screen masks for the correct ratio. It's very slick.

I'm not sure there is a right answer to the AVR thing first vs last. If you use genlock mode (which gives true native framerate support) there are some AVRs / processors that might not like the output of the Lumagen much (@JRP can give you the details from the horses mouth). I'd be surprised if AVRs are still much mangling the video, though nothing will ever cease to amaze me. And you've not got a ton of inputs on a 4242, whereas most AVR units will have 6 or more these days.


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> Do I remember right and you have an electric mask screen? If so you definitely want to try and get Auto Aspect hooked up to it; it is superb. I have a Raspberry PI programmed as a basic control system watching the output of the Lumagen and switching to whcihever HDR mode I want and adjusting the screen masks for the correct ratio. It's very slick.
> 
> I'm not sure there is a right answer to the AVR thing first vs last. If you use genlock mode (which gives true native framerate support) there are some AVRs / processors that might not like the output of the Lumagen much (@JRP can give you the details from the horses mouth). I'd be surprised if AVRs are still much mangling the video, though nothing will ever cease to amaze me. And you've not got a ton of inputs on a 4242, whereas most AVR units will have 6 or more these days.


Audioguy's post about the IR system reminded me that I had one of those new in a box that I got for my inlaws and was never used. I have hooked it up, so now I can use individual remotes for setup and my Harmony for actual use. So I will run all sources to Lumagen and only audio to prepro. Will connect 2nd HDMI cable from prepro to HDMI 2 on the RS3000, so that I can check audio setting, if needed.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Having much slower HDMI Handshakes with the Lumagen between the receiver and the projector. I had an HDfury before that I took out the system, should I put it back? If so, what setttings? AutoEDID? or a custom one? And I'm assuming passthru scaling? Would you put it between the receiver and the lumagen or after the lumagen to the projector. Sometimes when I start a movie on appletv it takes so long the receiver kicks back to another output that has a picture. 

Right now with no disc in, the oppo home screen menu shows up. as soon as I put in a disc, either bluray or bluray HDR, no picture comes up. The Lumagen doesnt like something. 
On the Oppo203, what settings do I put it on? HDR strip metadata? Auto? output resolution source direct? 24p frame conversion?

Going crazy trying to figure this out. it's gotta be an HDMI sync issue? some setting probably is gonna fix this.


----------



## Sandel

gadgetfreaky said:


> Having much slower HDMI Handshakes with the Lumagen between the receiver and the projector. I had an HDfury before that I took out the system, should I put it back? If so, what setttings? AutoEDID? or a custom one? And I'm assuming passthru scaling? Would you put it between the receiver and the lumagen or after the lumagen to the projector. Sometimes when I start a movie on appletv it takes so long the receiver kicks back to another output that has a picture.
> 
> Right now with no disc in, the oppo home screen menu shows up. as soon as I put in a disc, either bluray or bluray HDR, no picture comes up. The Lumagen doesnt like something.
> On the Oppo203, what settings do I put it on? HDR strip metadata? Auto? output resolution source direct? 24p frame conversion?
> 
> Going crazy trying to figure this out. it's gotta be an HDMI sync issue? some setting probably is gonna fix this.


I'm regularly experiencing the exact same thing, 98% of the time with AppleTV. Using the 9Ghz-Output (instead of the 18Ghz) sometimes reduces the handshake issues a bit...


----------



## jbrinegar

gadgetfreaky said:


> Having much slower HDMI Handshakes with the Lumagen between the receiver and the projector. I had an HDfury before that I took out the system, should I put it back? If so, what setttings? AutoEDID? or a custom one? And I'm assuming passthru scaling? Would you put it between the receiver and the lumagen or after the lumagen to the projector. Sometimes when I start a movie on appletv it takes so long the receiver kicks back to another output that has a picture.
> 
> Right now with no disc in, the oppo home screen menu shows up. as soon as I put in a disc, either bluray or bluray HDR, no picture comes up. The Lumagen doesnt like something.
> On the Oppo203, what settings do I put it on? HDR strip metadata? Auto? output resolution source direct? 24p frame conversion?
> 
> Going crazy trying to figure this out. it's gotta be an HDMI sync issue? some setting probably is gonna fix this.


I have an oppo 203 and a JVC rs2000 and its working well. My pathway is Oppo 203 with hdmi to lumagen, then HDMI to JVC pj (audio only to AVR)

I use source direct on the oppo because I want the Lumagen to do all the processing. Def dont use strip metadata, just use HDR output on the oppo (You want the lumagen to do its wonderful dynamic tone mapping). 

Are you hooked up in a similar fashion? If youre running video through the AVR instead of bypassing it, that adds another hdmi sync point, which could be your problem.


----------



## jbrinegar

Kris Deering said:


> Those cables should be fine. If you want to see if it is Lumagen specific, you can try plugging the ATV directly into the JVC and watch the same scenes. Does it happen with JVC's tone mapping as well? If it doesn't, and it does the same thing when you go back through the Lumagen, it may be a settings issue in the Lumagen itself.


Thanks for the tips Kris. I did as you suggested and hooked apple tv directly to JVC, bypassing Lumagen, and the flickering still exists, so it must be a setting I have wrong in the apple tv or in the projector itself. 

Definitely not a lumagen problem


----------



## Kris Deering

jbrinegar said:


> Thanks for the tips Kris. I did as you suggested and hooked apple tv directly to JVC, bypassing Lumagen, and the flickering still exists, so it must be a setting I have wrong in the apple tv or in the projector itself.
> 
> Definitely not a lumagen problem


With the content you mentioned I have serious doubts on it being the ATV, so that leaves the JVC or possibly your cables. Can you connect the ATV to your JVC using the shorter cable you mentioned temporarily and see if you have the same issue?


----------



## LJG

Installed the updated software Wednesday night, had a quick 5-minute phone call with Kris (Thanks Kris) to update my settings and watched Shazam last night. Awesome Awesome Awesome update, I have never seen the black level so good before with HDR tone mapping. Great job Jim and Patrick !!!! 

All I can say is if you're not using Lumagen DTM with your Sony 5000ES you are really doing a disservice to your setup.


----------



## FenceMan

LJG said:


> Installed the updated software Wednesday night, had a quick 5-minute phone call with Kris (Thanks Kris) to update my settings and watched Shazam last night. Awesome Awesome Awesome update, I have never seen the black level so good before with HDR tone mapping. Great job Jim and Patrick !!!!
> 
> All I can say is if you're not using Lumagen DTM with your Sony 5000ES you are really doing a disservice to your setup.


More like - 

All I can say is if you're not using Lumagen DTM with your you are really doing a disservice to your setup.


----------



## LJG

FenceMan said:


> More like -
> 
> All I can say is if you're not using Lumagen DTM with your you are really doing a disservice to your setup.


Agreed, but I can only speak to my setup


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> With the content you mentioned I have serious doubts on it being the ATV, so that leaves the JVC or possibly your cables. Can you connect the ATV to your JVC using the shorter cable you mentioned temporarily and see if you have the same issue?


I had similar issues with ATV and once I changed to this HDMI cable no further issues:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075N83B9X/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

This cable is sold by Apple for use with the ATV.


----------



## A7mad78

LJG said:


> Installed the updated software Wednesday night, had a quick 5-minute phone call with Kris (Thanks Kris) to update my settings and watched Shazam last night. Awesome Awesome Awesome update, I have never seen the black level so good before with HDR tone mapping. Great job Jim and Patrick !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say is if you're not using Lumagen DTM with your Sony 5000ES you are really doing a disservice to your setup.




What kind of adjust in the setting is recommend if possible to say 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Installed the updated software Wednesday night, had a quick 5-minute phone call with Kris (Thanks Kris) to update my settings and watched Shazam last night. Awesome Awesome Awesome update, I have never seen the black level so good before with HDR tone mapping. Great job Jim and Patrick !!!!
> 
> All I can say is if you're not using Lumagen DTM with your Sony 5000ES you are really doing a disservice to your setup.


Yea I've been telling Ash Sharma this for nearly two years now - but NOW it is so much more true than ever before!!!! Come on Ash!


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## LJG

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Yea I've been telling Ash Sharma this for nearly two years now - but NOW it is so much more true than ever before!!!! Come on Ash!


I was one of the original 5000ES owners even before it had tone mapping of any kind and HDR was basically unwatchable. It got better with the internal tone mapping but not very good. The Lumagen improved upon the internal with the first run static tone mapping which required a great deal of user adjustments for each movie. Lumagen improved upon this with the first iteration of DTM which was again better but not perfect by any means. This last update to my eyes is near perfect. DTM is an absolute must for any projector. It is not a subtle improvement from static tone mapping available internally or through the Pany 4K disc player.


----------



## LJG

A7mad78 said:


> What kind of adjust in the setting is recommend if possible to say
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Best to contact Kris Deering for this.


----------



## A7mad78

LJG said:


> Best to contact Kris Deering for this.




Far far away from US 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LJG

A7mad78 said:


> Far far away from US
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Contact him via email or telephone.


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## A7mad78

LJG said:


> Contact him via email or telephone.




Ok thx 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thebland

bobof said:


> Do I remember right and you have an electric mask screen? If so you definitely want to try and get Auto Aspect hooked up to it; it is superb. I have a Raspberry PI programmed as a basic control system watching the output of the Lumagen and switching to whcihever HDR mode I want and adjusting the screen masks for the correct ratio. It's very slick.
> .


Can the Lumagen Auto-detect aspect and trigger various screen aspects or how does it work? I have an automask screen (Stewart) and use Crestron.


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> Can the Lumagen Auto-detect aspect and trigger various screen aspects or how does it work? I have an automask screen (Stewart) and use Crestron.


Yes, Auto aspect works great in releases from the last 6 months (a couple of caveats I'll cover later) but you'll need your integrator to program it (or DIY if you are your integrator!). Basically you enable auto aspect, set up the aspect ratios to do the correct processing in the Lumagen, and then need the control system to watch the serial port for the status updates that have the aspect ratio info in them. You can't interface the Lumagen directly to the screen unless your screen controller is very advanced and can be programmed for custom strings (most can't).

I don't use a traditional control system, instead I have a custom Python script running on a Raspberry PI connected to the Lumagen RS232 interface and to my screen controller. Works great. 

The two caveats for autoaspect at the moment are:
1) It doesn't currently work at all if the content is frame-packed 3D
2) If the image has a non-standard aspect then auto aspect won't switch. So for example if you go from 16:9 to watching LaLaLand (which is 2.55:1) it stays at 16:9. I'd prefer it to switch to the closest ratio, which in the Lumagen is 2.40:1. I believe the supported ratios are 1.33:1, 1.78:1, 1.85:1, 2.0:1, 2.35:1, 2.4:1.

The above caveats are a small % of my viewing, but hopefully might be addressed in future releases. Outside of the above the Auto Aspect algorithm works brilliantly. For me the masks have usually started moving before the projector has displayed an image due to the sync times involved in the JVC units. There is something quite spellbinding about masks just doing the right thing when flipping through content on a media server, in Netflix or Amazon prime, etc etc. It makes my masking screen setup completely family friendly and I know they're watching content in the best possible presentation without me having to be there to set it up.

One other small point, there isn't any sensible way to deal with aspect changing movies with Auto Aspect as most screen motors will be too slow to react to content correctly. So you'd want to have a mode programmed to either lock masking to 2.4:1 or 1.78:1 depending on preference and whether you are CIH or CIW.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 072019*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 072019*
HDR parameter changes (.ie Ratio, Shape, etc) were needlessly slow to change when being modified. 
Removed HDR Min Offset from menu. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## GregCh

bobof said:


> Yes, Auto aspect works great in releases from the last 6 months (a couple of caveats I'll cover later)


Bobof,

I am a newbie to the Lumagen Video Processor but I have been thinking about adding something like a lumagen or MadVR Envy? when available for my JVC RS3000 Home Theater. 

It would primarily be used to help with two issues. 1) Improved 4k upscaling of HD Satellite TV. and 2) Auto-tone mapping of DV and HDR10 content before sending to the RS3000. 

What level is Lumagen at with auto-tone mapping DV and HDR10 signals? Do they support dynamic frame by frame tone mapping similar to DV or are they still doing static tone mapping like JVC? Does it require correct metadata to work or will it tone map based on analysis of incoming frame data? 

Also is the 4k upscaling superior to JVC's built in upscaling and so they handle motion well?

I am sure you guys have discussed it somewhere in this thread but with 167+ pages it is difficult to find the current state of the hardware.

Thanks


----------



## bobof

GregCh said:


> Bobof,
> 
> I am a newbie to the Lumagen Video Processor but I have been thinking about adding something like a lumagen or MadVR Envy? when available for my JVC RS3000 Home Theater.
> 
> It would primarily be used to help with two issues. 1) Improved 4k upscaling of HD Satellite TV. and 2) Auto-tone mapping of DV and HDR10 content before sending to the RS3000.
> 
> What level is Lumagen at with auto-tone mapping DV and HDR10 signals? Do they support dynamic frame by frame tone mapping similar to DV or are they still doing static tone mapping like JVC? Does it require correct metadata to work or will it tone map based on analysis of incoming frame data?
> 
> Also is the 4k upscaling superior to JVC's built in upscaling and so they handle motion well?
> 
> I am sure you guys have discussed it somewhere in this thread but with 167+ pages it is difficult to find the current state of the hardware.
> 
> Thanks


HDR10 tone mapping on the Lumagen is frame by frame analysis with the tone map being adjust based on that analysis. The methods are proprietary to Lumagen, but there is clearly some advanced scene detection going on to work out when and where to adjust the tone map to get the most from the image without making the adjustments visible in operation. Scene detection is hard - I was very sceptical that it could ever really work very well, and initial releases of all DTM from Lumagen and MadVR have been tripped up occasionally by various bits of content. 

So far I haven't seen a single issue with the most recent version of the Lumagen tone mapping, and that is no mean feat. I don't really follow MadVR development as to date the lack of ability to tone map HDMI sources has made it a non-starter, others might better know how the state of the art there behaves. Last time I looked it seemed a bit disjointed with a helper app to assist with the tone mapping adjustment - not sure if this is still the case, though I imagine that will get sorted for the Envy release.

Re: metadata; on the Lumagen there is a control which acts as a "metadata volume control" - it controls how much notice is paid to the metadata. So DTM can work well even in the face of bogus or missing metadata.

No-one is tone mapping DV because Dolby won't license to video processors. It is a little bit of a shame as the curated DV metadata could add to the picture quality, though it is hard to see how the current implementation could get that much better!

I don't personally use 1080p upscaling much (most content 4K, or ends up scaled unavoidably by player to 4K) , I'm sure others are better qualified to discuss relative merits of MadVR vs Lumagen scaling. But do use the scaling engine to zoom the image sometimes and think it work really well without scaling artefacts.

At the risk of stating the obvious, you can get the Lumagen now with well understood performance  . I don't think anyone (who's talking!) knows how long we might be waiting for the Envy to hit the stores. So far I've enjoyed real dynamic tone mapping for all my sources already for the last 3 months... and the previous Intensity Mapping incarnation for about a year before that. Happy days.


----------



## GregCh

bobof said:


> HDR10 tone mapping on the Lumagen is frame by frame analysis with the tone map being adjust based on that analysis. The methods are proprietary to Lumagen, but there is clearly some advanced scene detection going on to work out when and where to adjust the tone map to get the most from the image without making the adjustments visible in operation. Scene detection is hard - I was very sceptical that it could ever really work very well, and initial releases of all DTM from Lumagen and MadVR have been tripped up by various bits of content.
> 
> So far I haven't seen a single issue with the most recent version of the Lumagen tone mapping, and that is no mean feat. I don't really follow MadVR development as to date the lack of ability to tone map HDMI sources has made it a non-starter, others might better know how the state of the art there behaves. Last time I looked it seemed a bit disjointed with a helper app to assist with the tone mapping adjustment - not sure if this is still the case, though I imagine that will get sorted for the Envy release.
> 
> Re: metadata; on the Lumagen there is a control which acts as a "metadata volume control" - it controls how much notice is paid to the metadata. So DTM can work well even in the face of bogus or missing metadata.
> 
> No-one is tone mapping DV because Dolby won't license to video processors. It is a little bit of a shame as the curated DV could add to the picture quality, though it is hard to see how the current implementation could get that much better!
> 
> I don't personally use 1080p upscaling much (most content 4K, or ends up scaled unavoidably by player to 4K) , I'm sure others are better qualified to discuss relative merits of MadVR vs Lumagen scaling. But do use the scaling engine to zoom the image sometimes and think it work really well without scaling artefacts.
> 
> At the risk of stating the obvious, you can get the Lumagen now with well understood performance  . I don't think anyone (who's talking!) knows how long we might be waiting for the Envy to hit the stores. So far I've enjoyed real dynamic tone mapping for all my sources already for the last 3 months... and the previous Intensity Mapping incarnation for about a year before that. Happy days.


Thank you for the summation, it helped a lot. I was not a MadVR user. I had just heard that MadVR was trying to come out with an inline HDMI solution called MadVR Envy but I really don't want to wait around for an unknown product either. Craig of AVScience raves about his RS4500 with the Lumagen for tone mapping and I wasn't sure what he was talking about. I appreciate the info.


----------



## Craig Peer

GregCh said:


> Thank you for the summation, it helped a lot. I was not a MadVR user. I had just heard that MadVR was trying to come out with an inline HDMI solution called MadVR Envy but I really don't want to wait around for an unknown product either. Craig of AVScience raves about his RS4500 with the Lumagen for tone mapping and I wasn't sure what he was talking about. I appreciate the info.


Bobof pretty much said it all. Cable TV looks much better through the Lumagen in my opinion - at least lackluster AT & T U Verse. I don't really see any difference motion wise. But dynamic tone mapping just took a leap forward and looks outstanding now ( I thought it looked great before ). The Radiance Pro really takes 4K HDR to another level. That said, I'm curious what Kris Deering can do to make it look even better when he gets here in 2 weeks. To steal a quote from The Princess Bride - can it actually look even better ? Inconceivable !


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 072019*
> HDR parameter changes (.ie Ratio, Shape, etc) were needlessly slow to change when being modified.
> Removed HDR Min Offset from menu.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


You can't snooze around here or you'll miss a firmware update !


----------



## SJHT

thebland said:


> Can the Lumagen Auto-detect aspect and trigger various screen aspects or how does it work? I have an automask screen (Stewart) and use Crestron.


I would say that if the source is a Strato it likely can be done. The Strato sends out events when things change and your control system can capture this and make changes accordingly. Just mentioned this in the Strato thread....


----------



## jon1199

jrp said:


> First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.
> 
> Now on to the fun stuff:
> 
> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
> 
> We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.
> 
> This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.
> 
> We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.
> 
> We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.
> 
> The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.
> 
> ======
> 
> People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.
> 
> Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.
> 
> Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.
> 
> =====
> 
> I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


Hi Jim,

I would like to give you a big Thanks!

This is for continuing to support your products with after sales / tech support as well as continually improving and updating, such as with the most recent update for DTM. I was already impressed with the former, when I had to email for help with synch issues early on and got such prompt and helpful replies from you. With the DTM update - WOW..
When I first decided to jump on and purchase a Radiance Pro around 15 months ago, I really did not expect the level of commitment you have provided with Lumagen. Usually with other 'high-end' AV gear, I would be expecting to look at another purchase / upgrade to keep up with 'improvements'. I did go from a Sony 885ES over to a 995ES within a year and lost a significant amount of $$  But on the other hand, my Radiance Pro 15 months later, has had improvements on improvements.
The expectation may be that once someone pays higher $$$ for a product, you should see the support but this is often not the case.
So in short, I really appreciate what you are doing to make the Radiance Pro such an awesome device and an 'investment' or at least a highly positive cost value proposition. THANK YOU!


----------



## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> You can't snooze around here or you'll miss a firmware update !





Far out I just got my HTPC to behave last night and start seeing the Lumagen properly and ended the night feeling good in the thought I finally got the update... D'oh!


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> Can the Lumagen Auto-detect aspect and trigger various screen aspects or how does it work? I have an automask screen (Stewart) and use Crestron.


The Radiance Pro can auto-detect the input aspect and then auto-report the input and output information to a control system like the Crestron. This information is in the RS232 Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page. This information for the "Full v2" status report information is shown below:

Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
X= Input config number for current input resolution
AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)


----------



## SJHT

Wow! Does it generate events automatically if something changes or do you have to query? SJ


----------



## jrp

jon1199 said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I would like to give you a big Thanks!
> 
> This is for continuing to support your products with after sales / tech support as well as continually improving and updating, such as with the most recent update for DTM. I was already impressed with the former, when I had to email for help with synch issues early on and got such prompt and helpful replies from you. With the DTM update - WOW..
> When I first decided to jump on and purchase a Radiance Pro around 15 months ago, I really did not expect the level of commitment you have provided with Lumagen. Usually with other 'high-end' AV gear, I would be expecting to look at another purchase / upgrade to keep up with 'improvements'. I did go from a Sony 885ES over to a 995ES within a year and lost a significant amount of $$  But on the other hand, my Radiance Pro 15 months later, has had improvements on improvements.
> The expectation may be that once someone pays higher $$$ for a product, you should see the support but this is often not the case.
> So in short, I really appreciate what you are doing to make the Radiance Pro such an awesome device and an 'investment' or at least a highly positive cost value proposition. THANK YOU!


Thanks for the very positive comments. We really appreciate the recognition of our efforts.

We are thrilled with the great response the DTM improvements are receiving. We believe the DTM is in excellent shape now, but will also work on any additional scenes reported to us. And of course we have other features we will be adding.

We also want to thank the Radiance Pro community for all the feedback sent to us (such as scenes for Tone Mapping improvement, plus other positive comments and areas for improvement). This has been instrumental in helping us improve the Radiance Pro.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Wow! Does it generate events automatically if something changes or do you have to query? SJ


Yes, you can set the Pro to automatically (without any query command) send the "Full v2" status (or other supported status) report out the RS232 port if any of the reported status changes.


----------



## A7mad78

@jrp


Can u spoke about the new update lunch today and the small change come in the HDR setting (trans,shape...etc) 

Thx 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> I would say that if the source is a Strato it likely can be done. The Strato sends out events when things change and your control system can capture this and make changes accordingly. Just mentioned this in the Strato thread....


I think the Kaleidescape players are unique in that they have a curated metadata output for the aspect ratio, so no real need to use Lumagen Auto Aspect with them (though it might be simpler to use the same aspect control for all sources)
For all other products you probably want to use Lumagen Auto Aspect by watching the Lumagen serial port for the input update events. Works great and is very slick.


----------



## jabz

jrp said:


> I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


Great thanks for this. Are there any further changes being made to the manual since it's still not on the site yet?


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> The Radiance Pro can auto-detect the input aspect and then auto-report the input and output information to a control system like the Crestron. This information is in the RS232 Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page. This information for the "Full v2" status report information is shown below:
> 
> Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
> M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
> RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
> VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
> D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
> X= Input config number for current input resolution
> AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
> SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
> Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
> T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
> WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
> C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
> B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
> PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
> QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
> ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
> E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
> F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
> G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
> H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)


Thanks for the detailed response Jim.

So, when the splash / menu screen comes on masking will move to 16:9 and then to whatever aspect the film is once the movie is started... for all sources?

Also, In terms of a model to buy, I do not fully understand the input / output options. If I have 2 primary sources (disc player and KScape) and then an occasional cable program, what is basic model I would use? All sources are currently into a JBL / Trinnov SSP. 

I also use an anamorphic lens (Paladin). Any issues with a lens in a permanent position in front of lens? Sony 5000ES PJ.


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> jrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Radiance Pro can auto-detect the input aspect and then auto-report the input and output information to a control system like the Crestron. This information is in the RS232 Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page. This information for the "Full v2" status report information is shown below:
> 
> Radiance Pro only. Full information query (â€œFull v2â€ for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
> M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
> RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
> VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
> D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
> X= Input config number for current input resolution
> AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
> SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
> Y= NLS active (â€˜-â€˜ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
> T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
> WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
> C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
> B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
> PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
> QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
> ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
> E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
> F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
> G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
> H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response Jim.
> 
> So, when the splash / menu screen comes on masking will move to 16:9 and then to whatever aspect the film is once the movie is started... for all sources?
> 
> Also, In terms of a model to buy, I do not fully understand the input / output options. If I have 2 primary sources (disc player and KScape) and then an occasional cable program, what is basic model I would use? All sources are currently into a JBL / Trinnov SSP.
> 
> I also use an anamorphic lens (Paladin). Any issues with a lens in a permanent position in front of lens? Sony 5000ES PJ.
Click to expand...

Sent you a PM


----------



## jrp

jabz said:


> Great thanks for this. Are there any further changes being made to the manual since it's still not on the site yet?


I attached the new manual a few posts ago, but have asked Patrick to get the new manual up on the website today. It will be under support/manuals.


----------



## thrang

Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On

The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes

There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet

So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.

Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image


----------



## LGJr

*Drop Outs/sync issuses*

With all sources going into lumagen pro and video to tv and audio to processor on directv something is odd. When watching live tv on directv I have to reboot my lumagen pro for stable output every once and awhile. When I watch shows that I've recorded on directv I never have this problem. Any ideas why this happens?


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> So, when the splash / menu screen comes on masking will move to 16:9 and then to whatever aspect the film is once the movie is started... for all sources?
> 
> Also, In terms of a model to buy, I do not fully understand the input / output options. If I have 2 primary sources (disc player and KScape) and then an occasional cable program, what is basic model I would use? All sources are currently into a JBL / Trinnov SSP.
> 
> I also use an anamorphic lens (Paladin). Any issues with a lens in a permanent position in front of lens? Sony 5000ES PJ.


The Pro detects the input aspect based on there being (or not) a letter box bar above the movie. If there is is video filling the raster the Pro detects it as 16:9 for HDR and UHD, or for SD it is treated as 4:3. Splash screens are typically 16:9 and the Pro will report this. Then when you start a movie or other program the Pro detects its aspect ratio.

If auto aspect is enabled for that input the Pro then uses the configured settings for that source aspect. When it reports the status (either through a query or the "auto report") it reports the current source aspect if that information is in the selected status type).

==== 

Based on your description I suggest the Radiance Pro 4242 which has four inputs and two outputs (default is 9 GHz I/O cards). I would suggest upgrading the input cards (two in this case) to 18 GHz. Then you put your source into inputs 1, 3, 4, 2 from most to least used. The reason is 18 GHz input cards have one input chip per two inputs. By putting your two primary sources as inputs 1 and 3, you can switch between these two sources faster than if they are on, say, inputs 1 and 2.

I just posted on why I tell people to get a 9 GHz output card for the 4242. In short I can't see a difference upgrading to 18 GHz even for 4k60 HDR output, and the 9 GHz output has slower edge rates than the 18 GHz output making it easier on marginal TV/projector input designs. Since with the 9 GHz output both outputs can be independently programmed as video, audio, or both, this can help when an audio processor does not implement all the needed audio interrupts and instead depends on video interrupts to know when to change the audio. With the 9 GHz output you can enable both video and audio on Output 1 to the audio processor.

I have our Trinnov Altitude 16 on Output 1 (currently a 9 GHz output card) of our Radiance Pro 4446 with both audio and video enabled. Our JVC RS4500 is on Output 4. This is an 18 GHz output. This way the Pro can do the switching which is our recommendation.

As a side note I switch between the 18 GHz output at 18 GHz and the 9 GHz output to the RS4500. I use both since I want to show the 18 GHz output works reliably with a projector that has a good 18 GHz input design, such as the RS4500, but that 9 GHz output with the Pro's excellent dithering looks just as good (IMO).

==== 

No issues with the Paladin in front of your Sony 5000. Is it the DCR version? What is your screen aspect? If a DCR I recommend 4096 by 2160 (Cin4K MENU 0877 output mode) since the scaling in the VW5000 is always on (due to its internal digital convergence). Might as well get the extra light output versus 3840 wide output. If non-DCR then use 3840 by 2160 output mode for a 2.35 or 2.40 screen. There are tricks you can employ to fill the screen for both 2.35 and 2.40 content. This varies slightly based on your screen aspect. 

There is a quirk in the VW5000. It is internally a DCI projector with a HDMI to Display Port adapter. The DCI input inside the projector at the DCI interface is 8 bits and so whatever is sent to the VW5000 is truncated (I believe) to 8 bits at the DCI interface. Because of this I have been suggesting people set the Dither in the Output->Styles->Style->HDMI Setup->Dither to 8 bits. With this setting there is no need to 18 GHz output at all. Unfortunately so far no one has responded with a thumbs up or thumbs down for this. To see if this is better you would find a scene using the 12-bit 4:2:2 output that shows a bit of contouring due to the truncation to 8-bit. Then try dithering it to 8 bits to see if it mitigates the 8 bit limitation.

Let me know all the details of your screen and whether you have a DCR lens and I can post something here that might interest you and others about setting so both 2.35 and 2.40 content look as good as possible.


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> Let me know all the details of your screen and whether you have a DCR lens and I can post something here that might interest you and others about setting so both 2.35 and 2.40 content look as good as possible.


Thank you for the incredibly detailed response.

I have a Sony 5000ES, a Stewart VistaScope (BRIC controller) @ 14.5' wide, 2.40 Aspect. My anamorphic lens is a fixed Panamorph Paladin *DCR* into a SDP-75 / Altitude. Sources are KScape, BD / UHD Player, Comcast 4K box (though no 4K content on Xfinity yet), Apple TV. 90% of viewing is KScape.

Again, Thanks so much.


----------



## Craig Peer

thrang said:


> Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On
> 
> The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes
> 
> There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet
> 
> So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.
> 
> Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image


There are so many variables when it comes to projector settings, I would have to imagine you can get things more to your liking. With movies that had a tendency to look a bit blown out before ( Magnificent Seven 4K, The Kingsman ), it's looked much better now on my system. I haven't had a chance to watch a full movie with the new firmware yet, but I have friends coming shortly to watch La La Land, so I'll report back tomorrow on what I see.


----------



## jrp

LGJr said:


> With all sources going into lumagen pro and video to tv and audio to processor on directv something is odd. When watching live tv on directv I have to reboot my lumagen pro for stable output every once and awhile. When I watch shows that I've recorded on directv I never have this problem. Any ideas why this happens?


I responded to this in email, but the most likely issues is:

Potentially a cable is a bit loose or got bumped during the update. I recommend (with wall power diconntected) pulling and then re-inserting each end of every HDMI cable 5 times to clean and better form the contacts together. Then making very sure the plugs are all the way inserted.

I had this issue about a month ago. A cable got bumped and even though it looked like it was fully inserted it was not. Pushing it in (about 1/16 inch) resolved the issue.

Also there a small chance the specific FPGA in a system does not like the new release. This is very rare but can happen. Testing with a release that was working again to see if the issue goes away would be an indication of if this is an issue.


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> Thank you for the incredibly detailed response.
> 
> I have a Sony 5000ES, a Stewart VistaScope (BRIC controller) @ 14.5' wide, 2.40 Aspect. My anamorphic lens is a fixed Panamorph Paladin *DCR* into a SDP-75 / Altitude. Sources are KScape, BD / UHD Player, Comcast 4K box (though no 4K content on Xfinity yet), Apple TV. 90% of viewing is KScape.
> 
> Again, Thanks so much.


Since you have a 2.40 with a Paladin DCR, I recommend setting the Pro output to 4096x2160. You can do this by entering MENU 0877, then do a Save.

For the Sony VW5000ES, I suggest either using 9 GHz output (I have recently explained why this is a good idea), or if you want to run at 18 GHz, turn on the Reduce Max feature (Output->Styles->Style0->HDMI Format->Reduce Max). This reduces the blanking time, with no change to the actual image, reducing the output to about 17 GHz which the Sony VW5000 likes better than 18 GHz. If you do this for the output to the SDP75 (Altitude) have video turned off since this is a non standard rate and it can mess with an audio processor.

I personally like both 2.40 and 2.35 to fill my screen. There are a couple options I can recommend for this.

- Set the Pro output aspect to "single output aspect" = 2.40. Then select input aspect as 2.35 and zoom so it fills the width of the screen (should also fill the height). Then use the Pro masking (Output->Styles->Style0->Mask/Shrink->Mask) to set the overscan to a reasonable place.

- Set the Pro output aspect to "single output aspect" = 2.40. Then change the output aspect to "Output Aspect per Input aspect." Leave all input aspects as 2.40 except for 2.35 set the output aspect to 2.35. Not precise but with this setting the 2.35 content should fill the width of the screen instead of having small pillar box bars.

For our Strato, I program the Pro to always output 24 Hertz, even for the 60 Hertz OSD. This way the projector does not have its long lock on time changing from 60 to 24 Hertz or back at start/finish of the movie. If content is really 60 Hertz I override this back to 59.94 once I have started the content. I also do this for my Oppo 203. You do this in Output->Output Setup->2D. Select the Strato input, All for Memory, and All for input Mode (resolution), then select Output Mode = "2160p24 (4096x2160)" and then press OK to accept and do a Save.

I also program the SDR content to be output as SDR2020 in CMS0, and turn on the CMS0->Colorspace->2020< - > 601/709 = Auto convert. Since I use the recommended HDR output in a SDR container the CMS1 Colorspace is set up the same as CMS0, so no change going from SDR to HDR. I used Lightspace to do a 21x21x21 profile and generate a 17x17x17 3D LUT. For CMS0 I set targets as SDR Rec 709, and for HDR I set targets for SDR Rec 2020. If your projector is close to correct for Rec 2020 you can get by without a 3D LUT calibration, but I do always recommend a full color profile to see how good it is and then decide. This in turn means a professional calibrator.

Using these last two settings the output restart should be eliminated for start/finish of movies, once I have the Strato image on the screen (accounting for the change to 24 Hertz output when I select the Strato or Oppo), because there is no rate change and no colorspace change on the start/finish of the movie. So the only wait time is the Strato starting the movie.

Make sure to Save your changes.

I hope these "tricks" prove useful.


----------



## audioguy

thrang said:


> Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - c*urrently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On*
> 
> The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes
> 
> There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet
> 
> So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.
> 
> Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image


That was my first response as well after I installed the new firmware and had it calibrated over the last two days by Craig Rounds. THEN I watched some movie clips without turning DTM on and off. All I can say is WOW!! Just WOW. (That is a good WOW, by the way)

I will be interested to hear Jim or Kris Deering respond to your concerns.


----------



## thrang

audioguy said:


> thrang said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - c*urrently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On*
> 
> The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - Iâ€™️ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes
> 
> There is something odd that I canâ€™️t figure out yet
> 
> So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - Iâ€™️ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.
> 
> Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if Iâ€™️m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - Iâ€™️d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image
> 
> 
> 
> That was my first response as well after I installed the new firmware and had it calibrated over the last two days by Craig Rounds. THEN I watched some movie clips without turning DTM on and off. All I can say is WOW!! Just WOW. (That is a good WOW, by the way)
> 
> I will be interested to hear Jim or Kris Deering respond to your concerns.
Click to expand...

So I’m continuing to experiment and find I need to raise the high ratio to 21 or so (from the default 0) and Tran to 9 to eliminate the flatter duller look and reduced contrast I was experiencing. Jim is this in the realm of normal or indicative of something else perhaps not set right? Effective max display nits is around 272...

Thanks


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> For our Strato, I program the Pro to always output 24 Hertz, even for the 60 Hertz OSD. This way the projector does not have its long lock on time changing from 60 to 24 Hertz or back at start/finish of the movie. If content is really 60 Hertz I override this back to 59.94 once I have started the content. I also do this for my Oppo 203. You do this in Output->Output Setup->2D. Select the Strato input, All for Memory, and All for input Mode (resolution), then select Output Mode = "2160p24 (4096x2160)" and then press OK to accept and do a Save.


I did this for awhile, but the Strato OSD seemed very jerky at 24 vs. 60 Hertz (movie covers). My Sony 995 is not too bad in syncing (well at least compared to my previous JVC). Guess the trade off is faster switching vs. jerky movie covers moving around unless you don’t use that feature which especially our guests like.  SJ


----------



## jrp

Thrang made some comments that spurred me on to post some additional DTM information.

First, I would like to remind people that we have two horses in this race. A large portion of the improvements we made for Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) apply to Static Tone Mapping (STM). For example, the much higher precision in the calculations, the improved mapping curve generation, and the higher precision in the curves. So we not only raised the bar for DTM, we also raised it for STM. So this is a case of us competing with ourselves.

The relationship between the brightness for DTM and STM is very complicated. However, I need to note that "STM is brighter and so better" is in general wrong or at the least misleading. Also as I will discuss later, the parameters are used somewhat differently for DTM. So you cannot compare directly. 

Hard to know exactly what the grader intended for sure since you would have to have been looking over the shoulder of the grader, or viewing on the same monitor model used for grading. 

A case in point of not knowing for sure what the intent was is Incredibles 2. There are a number of people noting that it is darker than other HDR movies, but this appears to be the intent of the grade. You would need to look at the same monitor used for grading to know for sure though (although what people have posted is convincing).

Also note that The "HDR Mapping" in the Pro *cannot* change the color saturation. It only changes the intensity. Of course you may like the look of brighter pixels better and the intensity can change the perception of color, but as stated above brighter is often wrong.

One movie I think Thrang referenced in his discussion with Kris Deering was Blade Runner 2049 "Retiring the farmer" scene. I just had a look at this scene on our Strato. The movie reports a MaxCLL of 181 on the Strato when in fact the movie's MaxCLL is just above 480. This makes the movie brighter than it should be if one pays attention to the reported MaxCLL, which the Pro does with STM. You would have full brightness output at an input of 181 nits, and clip everything above this. Note: That we adjust for this issue in the Pro STM. So this error in the source is not as bad as it might be using STM.

For DTM the Pro calculates the actual scene brightness. The first time there is a close up of the farmers face in this scene the MaxCLL is reported as 19 by the Pro. Because of the way the Pro calculates this it is slightly less than a MaxCLL would be as reported in the Info Frame. So we might estimate the MaxCLL at about 25. This is the brightest part of the image. The background is much darker. So if you see this scene and the background looks like in daylight, it is wrong. This background along with much of Blade Runner 2049 is intentionally dark.

To see why there is a difference between DTM for this scene and STM I set the Max Light = 200 and Low-set and High-set Ratios to 0. What this means is the DTM and STM are using as close to the same parameters as possible quickly. To do the best comparison I would have to have two memories setup to optimize DTM independently from STM. Not going down that road.

DTM applies the parameters differently than STM. So as the Low-Set Ratio increases the differences between STM and DTM increase. With both Ratios at zero, I can go back and forth between STM and DTM and not see a perceptible difference. Is this correct? For the specifics of this scene, since the Max Light is 200, the STM MaxCLL is 181, and the Pro's "calculated scene MaxCLL is 200," yes it is.

===== 

So what about bright scenes? As the scene MaxCLL approaches the Info Frame MaxCLL, STM and DTM should become almost indistinguishable. Said another way when the DTM scene MaxCLL = STM MaxCLL they should look the essentially same. This is not quite the case since the DTM is a blended curve, and STM is a directly calculated curve, but they are in fact very close. I checked Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29 seconds, where the truck is exploding in the air. On the Strato this movie reports MaxCLL = 4000. For this scene the Pro sets the scene MaxCLL at 2490. Not exact but close enough. And in fact going between DTM and STM looks very similar.

===== 

So, said again, raising the Low-set Ratio increases the brightness faster for STM than for DTM for scene under 1000 nits. This is just how the math worked out. Does this mean the DTM is wrong? Nope. Does it mean that to do a valid comparison you would have to have different settings for Ratio (and other parameters) for STM than for DTM? Yes.

It was not a goal to be able to compare the two by turning DTM on and off. So, just going between DTM on and off is *not* a valid comparison. You are comparing proverbial apples and oranges. In fact, I must say I only evaluated if DTM looked as good as we could get it, without reference to STM.

===== 

I have spent hundreds of hours evaluating DTM. Tonight, I spent a few hours comparing DTM to STM. In pretty much every case I looked at, with the parameters set appropriately to do the comparison correctly, the DTM looked more accurate, and had a better "contrast" to the image. The image just looked better. Dark areas were as dark as they should be with DTM and this was not quite as true for STM (still very good though).

Is DTM perfect? No. Will we be working to make it even better? Yes. Should you compare DTM to STM by turning it on and off? No, unless you know the algorithm well enough to set the parameters for each appropriately to get as close to an apples to apples comparison as possible. I'm not even sure I know how to do this for all cases.

So my recommendation is tune up DTM to your personal preferences, or use the defaults as I do. Do not waste time trying to compare to STM, you can't get the parameters set correctly for a fair comparison.

If you want a brighter picture, reduce the Max Light setting and it will be so.

Or, if you like STM use that. It's our second horse, but it's still our horse. And it's a very pretty horse. Just not as pretty as our new horse. 

Most importantly, enjoy your Radiance Pro.


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## jrp

SJHT said:


> I did this for awhile, but the Strato OSD seemed very jerky at 24 vs. 60 Hertz (movie covers). My Sony 995 is not too bad in syncing (well at least compared to my previous JVC). Guess the trade off is faster switching vs. jerky movie covers moving around unless you don’t use that feature which especially our guests like.  SJ


Nope, not a fan of the Strato movie covers. They run away as I try to select them. 

I am a big fan of the Strato itself.

When I am doing demos, and evaluating DTM, and other features, just the Strato's movie start time is longer than I would prefer. I am often looking at one scene each in many different movies. Eliminating the projector restart helps me get more work done.


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## thebland

jrp said:


> Nope, not a fan of the Strato movie covers. They run away as I try to select them.
> 
> I am a big fan of the Strato itself.
> 
> ...Eliminating the projector restart helps me get more work done.


Me too on the Strato.

What do you mean by 'eliminating PJ restarts'? Not following you.


I am mulling purchasing the 4242. Once calibrated and set, my biggest concern is having new beta upgrades change or upset the apple cart if all was doing well prior. I notice the updates are still referred to as 'beta'. DO you generally recommend updating to every new beta or are there more benchmark, non-beta updates that come along every so often that can be 'safely' loaded without fear of any regression or affecting stability. FO the casual non-tweaker with an out of town calibrator, how do you generally recommend updating the unit? Thanks!


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## audioguy

As I noted above, when I did the "turn on/turn off" thing with DTM, "On" looked brighter. But when I did not do that and just watched content, I was completely blown away.

I understood about 4.28% of what Jim posted just above (or maybe less). But I am, at least so far, 100% satisfied with the image I have as a result of the Lumagen and what Craig Rounds did with it and my projector ... and I am 200% satisfied having bought a product that is supported so very well. Very, very unique in the AV business. Very.

I just can not imagine a better image than I now get from the Lumagen, RS4500 and Panamorph. Simply breathtaking!


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## A7mad78

With the last DTM update I keep every thing as it is in my configuration file the max light set to 400 nits and the DTM on 5 and huge different in the last update the pic looks great in most and even the clip in the meg 1:13 looks more great than before so time to relax and enjoy and I am sure the gays in Lumagen will do all what they can to reach the perfection 

Well done @jrp and all ur team 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kelvin1965S

Just wanted to clarify something: With the latest DTM all I need to do is choose the 'set defaults' option I came across in one of the menus (the left arrow one with the various gamma, black, etc settings) and put in an appropriate value for screen max light (approx 3-4 times what the actual value is)?

I know we can all tweak ad infinitum, but just keep things simple.


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## audioguy

thebland said:


> Me too on the Strato.
> 
> What do you mean by 'eliminating PJ restarts'? Not following you.
> 
> 
> I am mulling purchasing the 4242. Once calibrated and set, my biggest concern is having new beta upgrades change or upset the apple cart if all was doing well prior. I notice the updates are still referred to as 'beta'. DO you generally recommend updating to every new beta or are there more benchmark, non-beta updates that come along every so often that can be 'safely' loaded without fear of any regression or affecting stability. FO the casual non-tweaker with an out of town calibrator, how do you generally recommend updating the unit? Thanks!


If you are concerned about doing a particular firmware upgrade and messing up a good thing, then don't do it initially and wait until you are more comfortable with it. And, doing firmware upgrades really is easy-peazy!

And in the FWIW catagory, more than one person has told me that you have not seen anywhere what the 5000 can provide without using a Lumagen.


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## bearcat2002

audioguy said:


> As I noted above, when I did the "turn on/turn off" thing with DTM, "On" looked brighter. But when I did not do that and just watched content, I was completely blown away.
> 
> 
> 
> I understood about 4.28% of what Jim posted just above (or maybe less). But I am, at least so far, 100% satisfied with the image I have as a result of the Lumagen and what Craig Rounds did with it and my projector ... and I am 200% satisfied having bought a product that is supported so very well. Very, very unique in the AV business. Very.
> 
> 
> 
> I just can not imagine a better image than I now get from the Lumagen, RS4500 and Panamorph. Simply breathtaking!




Well I have my doctorate and you understood 3.28% more than I did. I think Jim is a genius.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## youngsyp

I started playing with IM, seriously, last night. I configured the Output of the Pro as suggested in the manual and training guides. I.e.

Colourspace: SDR2020
HDR Flag: Off
2020 601/709: Auto Convert

IM: On
Display Max Light: 7000
Gamma into 3D LUT: Auto

Input side IM/ HDR settings at default.

The issue is that the image is extremely dark and there are no HDR effects, so I've clearly missed something.

Display is a LG B6 OLED, disc player a Panasonic UB820.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Paul


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## FenceMan

youngsyp said:


> I started playing with IM, seriously, last night. I configured the Output of the Pro as suggested in the manual and training guides. I.e.
> 
> Colourspace: SDR2020
> HDR Flag: Off
> 2020 601/709: Auto Convert
> 
> IM: On
> Display Max Light: 7000
> Gamma into 3D LUT: Auto
> 
> Input side IM/ HDR settings at default.
> 
> The issue is that the image is extremely dark and there are no HDR effects, so I've clearly missed something.
> 
> Display is a LG B6 OLED, disc player a Panasonic UB820.
> 
> Any guidance would be appreciated.
> 
> Paul


Isn't 7000 way high (making it way too dark)??


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## SJHT

thebland said:


> Me too on the Strato.
> 
> What do you mean by 'eliminating PJ restarts'? Not following you.


If the OSD for the Strato is set to its normal 4K60, when you select a 24 Hertz movie, this causes a longer resync vs. forcing the OSD to 4K24..... SJ


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## thebland

SJHT said:


> If the OSD for the Strato is set to its normal 4K60, when you select a 24 Hertz movie, this causes a longer resync vs. forcing the OSD to 4K24..... SJ


So, how does 'projector restarts' figure into this? You have to restart your PJ or the sync time is simply delayed?

Thanks


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## SJHT

thebland said:


> So, how does 'projector restarts' figure into this? You have to restart your PJ or the sync time is simply delayed?
> 
> Thanks


Just delayed. It is MUCH longer for most projectors. Every time you go from the movie display to the playing the movie (and back). Example, 4K60 (movie titles screen) to 4K24 (actual movie playing) then back to 4K60 when the movie is done and back to the movie screen. Some people also play the movies at 4K60 to eliminate the longer sync. Good news is that the Lumagen gives you all of these options!


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## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> Just delayed. It is MUCH longer for most projectors. Every time you go from the movie display to the playing the movie (and back). Example, 4K60 (movie titles screen) to 4K24 (actual movie playing) then back to 4K60 when the movie is done and back to the movie screen. Some people also play the movies at 4K60 to eliminate the longer sync. Good news is that the Lumagen gives you all of these options!




I use about the slight delayed love the screen cover for K and coz I used the Ipad to control so it’s so easy to play with 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

A7mad78 said:


> I use about the slight delayed love the screen cover for K and coz I used the Ipad to control so it’s so easy to play with
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m OK with the delay as we also like the movie cover screen. Jim is jumping back and forth between the two doing all of his testing. He needs to write a script. . Script movie changes do not resync but there is a slight delay between scenes in the script. A cool feature. I have several for demo purposes. Peter (CINERAMAX) is the undisputed king of scripts!


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## youngsyp

FenceMan said:


> Isn't 7000 way high (making it way too dark)??


It was recommended to me by a very highly regarded calibrator, here in the UK, whom uses it with their Sony A1. It's also worth stating that I tried numerous other values for that attribute, and they were all what I'd determine as way too dark. To get a reasonable APL, every other setting being equal, I'd need to set Display Max Light in the 00's. And regardless, there would still be no 'HDR effects'.

Paul


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## Gordon Fraser

youngsyp said:


> It was recommended to me by a very highly regarded calibrator, here in the UK, whom uses it with their Sony A1. It's also worth stating that I tried numerous other values for that attribute, and they were all what I'd determine as way too dark. To get a reasonable APL, every other setting being equal, I'd need to set Display Max Light in the 00's. And regardless, there would still be no 'HDR effects'.
> 
> Paul



For those wondering what is going on....I recommended trying 7000 if you are sending HDR REC2020 to an OLED display that is already doing HDR EOTF of it's own...sort of as a pre mapping to play with. If you are sending SDR like Paul is then you put in the measured value of your display. Some OLED's will not achieve the same light output when in SDR modes compared to their HDR modes...hence the "try 7000". So that is why it's mega dark.


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## youngsyp

Gordon Fraser said:


> For those wondering what is going on....I recommended trying 7000 if you are sending HDR REC2020 to an OLED display that is already doing HDR EOTF of it's own...sort of as a pre mapping to play with. If you are sending SDR like Paul is then you put in the measured value of your display. Some OLED's will not achieve the same light output when in SDR modes compared to their HDR modes...hence the "try 7000". So that is why it's mega dark.


Thanks Gordon.

I'll mention that I also tried as you've suggested, to 'pre-map' and it looked great, except for blown out detail in bright areas (skies and clouds). I did a few profile passes with LightSpace and it would seem this is because the luminance starts to really ramp up at 40% stimulus, instead of 70% (IIRC).

This now gives me a few options to play around with, so thanks.

Paul

ETA: To measure the peak light output, when letting the Pro IM, is that using the 1% of the screen at a 1 degree arc method, as Jim mentioned in one of his posts?


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## jrp

thebland said:


> Me too on the Strato.
> 
> What do you mean by 'eliminating PJ restarts'? Not following you.
> 
> I am mulling purchasing the 4242. Once calibrated and set, my biggest concern is having new beta upgrades change or upset the apple cart if all was doing well prior. I notice the updates are still referred to as 'beta'. Do you generally recommend updating to every new beta or are there more benchmark, non-beta updates that come along every so often that can be 'safely' loaded without fear of any regression or affecting stability. For the casual non-tweaker with an out of town calibrator, how do you generally recommend updating the unit? Thanks!


When the movie starts, if the player is set to match the frame rate, the player output frame rate switches from the OSD (60 Hertz for the Strato) to the movie frame rate (23.98 for almost all movies). This means the input on the Radiance Pro has to lock on to the new signal rate. This adds perhaps 3 seconds to the movie start time since the Pro is able to lock on to the new signal pretty fast.

If you program the Pro to match the frame rate of the source that means the Pro output would change from 60 to 23.98 as well. However, projectors are slow locking on to a signal change with some taking 30 seconds, or more. This has improved lately and I would say it is now mostly in the 10 to 15 second range, but this is still longer than I prefer.

To prevent this, and to allow me to watch movies at 23.98 Hertz (rather than 59.94), for the Strato input, I program the Radiance Pro to always output 23.98 to our JVC RS4500, and to always output SDR2020 (color format changes require an output restart although this is much faster than a output rate change locking on since it is at the same rate before and after). So when the movie starts the Pro has to lock on to the input rate change from 60 to 23.98 from the Strato, but the projector does not even now anything changed and so carries on without interruption. Note: Genlock must be off to prevent a Pro output restart. Since the Strato OSD is 60 Hertz, outputting at 23.98 means the "covers" moving around do not look smooth. I don't care about this. What is great is I can watch movies at 23.98 with a "select to movie image time" around 7 seconds instead of in the range of 20 to 25 seconds.

Note: for the Content that is 59.94, I manually change the output of the Pro to 59.94 after starting the program. You can program a memory to use a different output style to be user friendly. I just enter MENU 029 which is a temporary debug command to change the output to 4k60.

===== 

Updating software does not change any of your settings. I do recommend backing up your configuration to a PC using our Config Reader before updating just in case. Another reason to backup to a PC is the very remote chance a power surge takes out equipment like the Radiance Pro, or there is a random failure.

We could easily call our releases "production." This is for us pure semantics. Calling them Beta means we can release them faster, and so make faster progress on adding features. I explain this to people if they ask (like you). For people new to Lumagen I understand it feels better to see the word "production" on the releases. I think I will ask Patrick to mark older releases as "production," and keep only the latest release on our website as Beta.

New release are vetted by our customers very quickly, often within hours, and they are not shy about pointing out issues. So once a release has been on the website for a week or so, we can know if it is a good release or not so good. If we do end up with a not as good release we can generally have it fixed in a day or two and post a new release.

If someone, like a dealer, is (very reasonably) more concerned with stability than the latest feature, I recommend loading the release prior to the latest since it will have been well vetted or we would have removed or made a "do not use" note in the release notes.


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## jrp

SJHT said:


> I’m OK with the delay as we also like the movie cover screen. Jim is jumping back and forth between the two doing all of his testing. He needs to write a script. . Script movie changes do not resync but there is a slight delay between scenes in the script. A cool feature. I have several for demo purposes. Peter (CINERAMAX) is the undisputed king of scripts!


I know about Strato scripts but do not know how to create them. On my to-do list for doing better demos.

However, when evaluation, I do not look at movies in any sequence, or even the same scene in the movie. We might be changing between two movies but in a couple hours be changing between two different movies. So not ideal conditions for a script.


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## stefanop

With the last firmware, with Sony 5000 if I set HDMI ReduceMax:Yes, a green vertical line appears in the middle of the screen. If I set ReduceMax:Off the green line disappears. I tried several time. Power Off and then On either the Radiance or the projector.


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## stefanop

I tried with Sony 5000 to set Dither in different settings, the best seems AUTO, with 10 and lower values image pixelates severely when there are some faint halo in the image (in the picture shot by the director, not halo of the lens of the projector...).


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## David Johannesen

Can a 4240 take a second output card? If not, what kind of handshaking delay would a hdmi splitter introduce when switching sources with JVC projector?


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## jrp

In my previous posts I was focusing projectors. TVs with a lot more light are different beasts. Allow me to use the LG OLED as an example.

Most TVs - through the complete dedication to customer support (sic) - do not output as much light in SDR mode as they do in HDR Mode. This makes little sense, other than to reduce phone calls to their support line. Because of this, we have Pro customers setting the Pro output Colorspace = HDR2020 so they can maximize light output. I understand given the overly simplistic limitation in the TV, the customer has little choice. Two ways to work this.

Options

1) Set the CMS1 Colorspace = HDR2020, HDR Flag = on, 2020 < - > 601/709 is a don't care, but selecting "Auto Convert" is fine. Then turn down the amount of Tone Mapping in the TV as much as reasonable. If you plan to try to use the Radiance Pro DTM, the OLED DTM needs to be off. Put on a bright movie frame. As I have said before I use Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29 truck exploding in the air. Adjust CMS1->HDR Mapping -> Max Light.

It is very important to note that the Max Light tells the Pro "I can correctly display up to XXX nits." Because of this scenes before Max Light are not being "Tone Mapped" but rather are passed through because there is no reason to tone map if the TV can represent the scene accurately without tone mapping.

What this means is if you end up with Max Light at 7000 as reported in a previous post, only content above 7000 nits is being tone mapped. At this time I believe this is limited to computer games and test discs. So try to turn down the TV tone Mapping enough so you can get a good looking image with Max Light in the 2000 to 3000 range. Then at least 3000 nit and higher titles will get some tone mapping. For this option if you have to have a higher Max Light than this you might want to turn the Radiance Pro tone mapping off.

The TV has DTM it would need to be off, otherwise the Pro's Tone Mapping needs to be off.

2) Still waiting on feedback on this one. You can select CMS1->Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = On, auto convert is still a don't care with these settings. Still set Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR in the HDR Mapping. This will work best for a TV that has a "one size fits all" tone mapping. The TV will give you more brightness since it thinks the Radiance Pro is sending HDR.

As part of this you need to do a 1D LUT calibration to 2.4 Gamma to undo the TVs attempts at a Bt.2084 Gamma. Use the Gamma_Factor = 0.80 first to get the Gamma a little closer to 2.4, and then run a normal SDR 2.4 Gamma calibration. So we fool the TV to output more light, but still allow the Pro to have room for Tone Mapping to work. For an OLED, I think you will end up with Max Light in the range of 500 to perhaps as high as 1200.

If the TV has DTM, you have to disable it. If the TV's DTM cannot be disabled Option 2 is not likely going work out. If the TV pays attention to the MaxCLL, but in a static way, this should work, but potentially only after I get Pat to add a fixed MaxCLL in the Pro output Metadata for this "non-HDR but with HDR flag" mode.

If you want to give Option 2 a try, you can call me on the Lumagen support line (503-574-2211) as you have questions. I am usually in around 9 AM Pacific time and am usually available until late evening.

I am still waiting for someone to try Option 2 and report back. It should work, but need feedback to confirm.


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## audioguy

Has anyone watched Shazam using a projector and the new DTM updates? We just did (NOT my favorite movie) and am curious about your thoughts on how the Lumagen/DTM performed on the dark scenes.


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## youngsyp

jrp said:


> I am still waiting for someone to try Option 2 and report back. It should work, but need feedback to confirm.


Thank you for the hugely informative post. I suspect that I'm in the minority, with what I'm trying to achieve, so I appreciate your input.

I'll give option 2 a try and feedback. As far as I'm aware, there's no way to disable tone mapping within the display, so this could be a good approach for what I want.

I've tried the SDR2020, with 450 Max Light and HDR2020 with 7000 Max light approaches this evening and much prefer the latter as I get the 'HDR effect' I'd expect. I've managed to restore the blown out light areas by correctly setting the output colourspace to HDR2020 and also further improve it by reducing the Ratio to -5.

More than happy to experiment with this, if it will assist others.

Thanks again and I'll feedback when I have anything useful to add.

Paul


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## stefanop

As Thrang already wrote, I find the latest incarnation of DTM not so good. The overall image is light, dull, there's no contrast or punch. If I set MaxLight to 200, instead of 300 400 500 600, you can see a bright image but it is over processed and not real-like.
I think there shadows are overly brightened and lights are dull, overall resulting image is a perfectly visible details in shadows and bright-lights but without contrast and punch. Colors are a bit desauturated, too.
I tried multiple combination of Trans, Level, Gamma…..but without satisfaction. Waiting for a future upgrade, I'm crancking up Light to MAX on Sony 5000, disabling Radiance ToneMapping and setting internal SONY HDR Profile and….Ok not perfect in low level, but average image is super punchy and colorful.


Probably I can't set and balance correct values with this new DTM function.


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## jabz

What are people doing with an Oppo 203 when playing a dolby vision title, since the Lumagen appears to see this as RGB-SDR709 when the Oppo HDR is set to Auto. How do you get the Oppo to play the HDR10 base instead of outputting DV?


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## audioguy

I watched our first full movie yesterday since having my Lumagen and projector calibrated the past few days. And while I don't see exactly what the poster above stated:


> "The overall image is light, dull, there's no contrast or punch"


 (actually, most scenes, quite the contrary), the darker images do appear pretty dull and lifeless. While I read Jim's comments above (and most certainly could not comprehend all of it), but the "net net" to my eyes is that this most recent upgrade seemed a step backward for many (not all) of the darker scenes from the previous one. (And I did not play with turning on an off DTM).

Just sayin'


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## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> I watched our first full movie yesterday since having my Lumagen and projector calibrated the past few days. And while I don't see exactly what the poster above stated: (actually, most scenes, quite the contrary), the darker images do appear pretty dull and lifeless. While I read Jim's comments above (and most certainly could not comprehend all of it), but the "net net" to my eyes is that this most recent upgrade seemed a step backward for many (not all) of the darker scenes from the previous one. (And I did not play with turning on an off DTM).
> 
> 
> 
> Just sayin'




I agree with u but for me I don’t see it backward but move in the right path compare to the other FW 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LJG

audioguy said:


> Has anyone watched Shazam using a projector and the new DTM updates? We just did (NOT my favorite movie) and am curious about your thoughts on how the Lumagen/DTM performed on the dark scenes.


I thought it looked stunning.


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## Kris Deering

One thing to keep in mind is that the new DTM and the settings work quite a bit different than they did in the static days and some of the issues some may be having is related to setup. I've reached out to Audioguy to look at the scenes he is having issues with to see what I'm seeing in my setup (which is similar) and also to compare it to what those scenes look like when played back in DV on a calibrated OLED. Some movies are just dark by design and should be (Solo and Arrival are great examples) and no matter what some people just find them dull and unflattering. Dynamic tone mapping does take away a bit in the absolute darkest scenes because it has to build in some padding for something bright that may come on screen the next frame, similar to a dynamic contrast system. If you don't build a bit of range into the system, clipping will occur. It is just the nature of the beast. So a static tone map curve will probably look better for one scene than DTM, but the point of DTM is that it will look better throughout whereas a static curve could look better for a single scene but not as good for the overall movie. 

Think of this like a dynamic iris. Some complain because a dynamic iris will take away a bit from the top end in scenes like star fields. That is because the overall APL is so low, but there are still bright objects. Because the APL is low, the dynamic iris clamps down to give you the best blacks at the expense of a bit of white. If you turn it off, the whites look better, but the blacks suffer. You can't have both. With a dynamic tone map they have to have some padding to allow for quick transitions so that you don't get obvious clipping.


----------



## audioguy

I just watched Alita. Lots of dark scenes but they all looked amazing!


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> I just watched Alita. Lots of dark scenes but they all looked amazing!


Dark scenes are always interesting because there are really two types. There are the really dark scenes with some highlights or bright objects; these generally look really good because the highlights give you something to compare black with. So subjectively they always pop. These scenes tend to look good even with lower contrast displays because you have a reference in frame with white objects. 

The harder ones are extremely dark, low APL scenes with nothing to give contrast to. These tend to look murky and gray with low contrast displays, but even the better contrast of something like a JVC can only do so much. I have a couple that I use to test with. Infinite contrast displays like an OLED can help but we're also seeing a recent trend with movies where really dark sequences are not actually using a true black, so even with an OLED they look murky and sometimes too gray. This could have been a capture issue (cameras don't do that well with near black and little light) or an artistic choice. I've read enough American Cinematographer issues to know that a lot of DPs don't like pure ink black because we actually don't see that much in real life. I prefer true blacks personally. 

I see A LOT of Dolby Cinema presentations and it's amazing how many of them are not encoded with a true black. You see it immediately when the film starts because you'll see the difference in black between the active frame and the black bars (my DCs are all academy flat screens). 

The opening sequence of Shazam in the car doesn't have a lot of highlight info and is really dark (almost looks like it has some slight crush). This would be a touch scene for lots of displays and the 4500 that Audioguy is using is on the lower end for native contrast, especially if he isn't using the dynamic dimming (which I'm not sure if he is). But due to the largely low level of actual highlights, the auto dimming on the 4500 may actually have issues with this scene. I am supposed to do a Radiance/4500 calibration in about two weeks so I will definitely look at this scene to see how it behave. I plan on evaluating it on my OLED tonight with the DV grade to see how it compares subjectively to my RS3000/Lumagen combination.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> Dark scenes are always interesting because there are really two types. There are the really dark scenes with some highlights or bright objects; these generally look really good because the highlights give you something to compare black with. So subjectively they always pop. These scenes tend to look good even with lower contrast displays because you have a reference in frame with white objects.
> 
> .


Kris,
Please, if possible, give us your top 5 movies to watch (content not important - only video) with the Lumagen DTM to witness the difference it brings to the picture..
Thanks in advance.
Ash


----------



## FenceMan

I am trying to digest and understand a lot of info as a recent Pro user, is HDR (at least on a projector) always going to be a personal preference setup? I know the Fury Road scene to set Max Light but am still somewhat unclear as to how to know where to set it based on that scene? Is a test pattern (ala AVS 709 where you can clearly and with 100% certainty see where to set brightness) not possible for HDR setup?

I have an RS 2000 about 10.5' from a 100" screen and I think I've settled on about 550 but I keep questioning that because I am not confident in how I arrived there. To me darker scenes are amazing but sometimes the really bright scenes seem too bright. I have used JVC auto calibration with a Spyder 5 for gamma and iPro2 for color and verified contrast and brightness with Lumagen test patterns so I think the only question is the Max Light and what to look for when setting?


----------



## jrp

New release 072119 to fix issues with 072019.

Reason: 071919 has debug debug code left in which slowed down the menu. 072019 attempted to remove it but not quite right. So 072119 should complete the removal of the debug code.


----------



## jrp

Kelvin1965S said:


> Just wanted to clarify something: With the latest DTM all I need to do is choose the 'set defaults' option I came across in one of the menus (the left arrow one with the various gamma, black, etc settings) and put in an appropriate value for screen max light (approx 3-4 times what the actual value is)?
> 
> I know we can all tweak ad infinitum, but just keep things simple.


Yes, this can work.

For others, the Menu is Input->Options->HDR Mapping -> Set Defaults. Select the reset to defaults (this is for HDR Mapping only)

Remember to Save your changes.


----------



## jrp

Dark scenes can't really "pop" like bright scenes. Not enough contrast. I agree with all Kris said about them. 

- Issues with the contrast ratio of the projector/TV can hurt dark scenes, but not be an issue with really bright scenes.

- Movie grades often do not reach black. This reduces the scene contrast ratio.

If you want to try to improve them two things to try:

You can increase your effective Max Light by increasing the Low-set Ratio. For our RS4500 (85 nit brightness) I have Max Light = 350 and Ratio set to 15 (the default). However, I am considering increasing this to 20 to 21 as this reduces the effective display max light for dark scenes four our RS4500 from about 196 to 150 or so. This will make dark scenes brighter and you my like the result.

As Kris mentioned, what passes for black in many (most?) movies is not black (i.e. not code value 64). I have the "Journey to Space" documentary that I use since it has "black of space," but not quite. It is 16:9 so I see its black does not match the black in my side-bars. I have to take the HDR Parameter Menu "Black" to -9 to get its black to be black. I am *not* suggesting you set black to -9 as that could cause issues with crushing. However, I am suggesting that taking the HDR parameter Black slightly negative can compensate for a movie grade that does not get black down to black.


----------



## jrp

FenceMan said:


> I am trying to digest and understand a lot of info as a recent Pro user, is HDR (at least on a projector) always going to be a personal preference setup? I know the Fury Road scene to set Max Light but am still somewhat unclear as to how to know where to set it based on that scene? Is a test pattern (ala AVS 709 where you can clearly and with 100% certainty see where to set brightness) not possible for HDR setup?
> 
> I have an RS 2000 about 10.5' from a 100" screen and I think I've settled on about 550 but I keep questioning that because I am not confident in how I arrived there. To me darker scenes are amazing but sometimes the really bright scenes seem too bright. I have used JVC auto calibration with a Spyder 5 for gamma and iPro2 for color and verified contrast and brightness with Lumagen test patterns so I think the only question is the Max Light and what to look for when setting?


If dark scene look good, and bright scenes are too bright in your opinion, you can adjust the High Set Ratio. I normally recommend the High-set ratio always be set to 0, but in your case you can keep your dark scenes settings, and darken the bright scenes by having a negative High-set Ratio. Adjust the negative until you are happy with bright scenes. Then check dark scene to make sure they are still good.


----------



## jrp

stefanop said:


> With the last firmware, with Sony 5000 if I set HDMI ReduceMax:Yes, a green vertical line appears in the middle of the screen. If I set ReduceMax:Off the green line disappears. I tried several time. Power Off and then On either the Radiance or the projector.


We will take a look. 

Your feedback that this is only with Reduce max is a clue. It is possible that some VW5000 are less happy with reduce max. Or it is possible there is an issue in the Pro output with Reduce max (although it does not seem like the Pro could generate a green line in the middle. Never know until it gets figured out though). We have seen a green line in the middle with at least one or two other Sony 5000's, but never (to the best of my knowledge) with a different projector.

We have had a vertical line on one side or the other that did turn out to be a FPGA issue. That is an "edge case" while the green line in the middle is a in the middle of everything which is not likely in the Pro architecture, but certainly worth us looking into this.

You can actually test this with a TV with Reduce Max to see if it happens on a second device (then likely the Pro). However, very few TVs work with Reduce Max since it is a non-standard pixel rate and timing.

If Reduce Max = Off works, that is the standard "18 GHz" rate. Use this if it works for you.


----------



## Soulnight

jrp said:


> You can increase your effective Max Light by increasing the Low-set Ratio. For our RS4500 (85 nit brightness) I have Max Light = 350 and Ratio set to 15 (the default). However, I am considering increasing this to 20 to 21 as this reduces the effective display max light for dark scenes four our RS4500 from about 196 to 150 or so. This will make dark scenes brighter and you my like the result.


Interesting. 

Could you provide the formula between ratio, max light and "effective display max light "?

That will be useful to everybody with projectors to set scientifically the brightness wanted for dark scenes based on their REAL nits on screen (in your case 85nits)

Some may like to get 2:1 brightness to follow SDR brightness calibration recommendations for projector.
So 2×85=170nits "effective display max light" for any scene with frame peak lower than 170nits.

Some may like 1:1 to follow the absolute brightness directly on the UHD disc.
So 85nits "effective display max light" for any scene with frame peak lower than 170nits.

Also with this knowledge, TV users with "max light" value already equal to their real nits will be able to tune the "low set ratio" so that they do NOT watch the movie any brighter than the absolute brightness coded on the uhd bluray. In your example, if someone had a TV with 350 real nits and would have set 350 as "max light", then with default ratio of 15, dark scene would be viewed with 196 target nits, which would result in a picture 350/196=1.78 times brighter than it was ever intended.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris,
> 
> Please, if possible, give us your top 5 movies to watch (content not important - only video) with the Lumagen DTM to witness the difference it brings to the picture..
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Ash




Not Kris, but here are my top 5 for DTM so far. There are many more, but these are the scenes I think run the gamut in bright scenes, dark scenes, nuanced performance in dimly lit rooms, etc.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## dgkula

Hi Everyone,

I have been absent on the forums for the last six to eight months and it is great to see that the DTM is taking off and developing. My setup is quite simple: JVC RS620 onto 16:9 100" Stewart ST100 in a batcave. I watch a mix of HDR/SDR on Roku and on blu ray dvd. I have the HDFury integral setup to switch between custom curves based on HDR metadata.

I've been following this thread off and on and am debating buying a Lumagen (maybe the 4240) to run either inline between my AVR and projector or roku + blu ray in to lumagen with a/v out to proj and audio out to AVR. In this case I might want more inputs just in case I add devices down the line. How do I think about the 18GHz in/out?

Given the lack of complexity in my setup (e.g. not anamorphic lens, etc) and my primary interest being DTM (especially for Netflix shows which are always dark, dark, dark) would this me the right choice? Is this a "set it and forget it" type of solution? Don't get me wrong I am technical and have used REW to make custom MiniDSP filters for my 3 subs but haven't touched that in 6+ months (et it and forget it )

Thanks,
David


----------



## Ash Sharma

BrolicBeast said:


> Not Kris, but here are my top 5 for DTM so far. There are many more, but these are the scenes I think run the gamut in bright scenes, dark scenes, nuanced performance in dimly lit rooms, etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks - this could make a good Kaleidescape Script for a torture Test


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## BrolicBeast

Ash Sharma said:


> Thanks - this could make a good Kaleidescape Script for a torture Test




No problem! It definitely would. If you need timestamps, let me know—I can send them to you (not sure how Kscape scripts work by time stamp or chapter). These are derived from MKV files— isolated by time stamp start/stop times and placed into individual bit-perfect files w/ full resolution/HDR & Atmos for demo purposes played back via Plex app on an NVidia Shield. If scripts allow you to build demos, then that’s an AMAZING feature. The moment Kscape gets Atmos/DTS:X in every single title, I’ll place my order that day. Huge fan of the interface and I’ve been keeping current with my Movies Anywhere account (which I hope KScape interfaces with, now that UV is dead.) But any way you can view these scenes—definitely do! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Ash Sharma

BrolicBeast said:


> If scripts allow you to build demos, then that’s an AMAZING feature. The moment Kscape gets Atmos/DTS:X in every single title, I’ll place my order that day. Huge fan of the interface and I’ve been keeping current with my Movies Anywhere account (which I hope KScape interfaces with, now that UV is dead.) But any way you can view these scenes—definitely do!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Yes you can make Scripts all day long on K - and they are getting better with Immersive tracks - this month I wanted to buy three titles - Shazam - Rocketman and John Wick 3 and to my surprise all three had ATMOS. In fact Rocketman we will have tommorow almost a month before the Disc and even John Wick 3.

I sent you a PM.


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> New release 072119 to fix issues with 072019.
> 
> Reason: 071919 has debug debug code left in which slowed down the menu. 072019 attempted to remove it but not quite right. So 072119 should complete the removal of the debug code.


Jim, 

Would the 072019 update caused any stuttering video and pixelization (not sure if that is the correct term)? I loaded the 072019 firmware yesterday, and was watching TV via my TiVo Roamio Pro DVR, and noticed these issues, which I had never seen before. I did not perform any other testing by using another source or the other display setup, as it was late in the day. 

The signal is going from the Pro to a 15-meter RuiPro hybrid fiber cable to a Denon AVR-X3500H, and finally on to a 2017 LG OLED. I have a separate style for this source set to 9GHz output, based upon our prior troubleshooting of the issues with this particular source.

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> No problem! It definitely would. If you need timestamps, let me know—I can send them to you (not sure how Kscape scripts work by time stamp or chapter). These are derived from MKV files— isolated by time stamp start/stop times and placed into individual bit-perfect files w/ full resolution/HDR & Atmos for demo purposes played back via Plex app on an NVidia Shield. If scripts allow you to build demos, then that’s an AMAZING feature. The moment Kscape gets Atmos/DTS:X in every single title, I’ll place my order that day. Huge fan of the interface and I’ve been keeping current with my Movies Anywhere account (which I hope KScape interfaces with, now that UV is dead.) But any way you can view these scenes—definitely do!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


email Sent


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> email Sent



EDIT—CAME THROUGH.


Hey buddy, I have not yet received it....my server might be running slow?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## giomania

BrolicBeast said:


> Not Kris, but here are my top 5 for DTM so far. There are many more, but these are the scenes I think run the gamut in bright scenes, dark scenes, nuanced performance in dimly lit rooms, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro




Time stamps, please, so I can make my own with MKVToolnix. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> Based on your description I suggest the Radiance Pro 4242 which has four inputs and two outputs (default is 9 GHz I/O cards). I would suggest upgrading the input cards (two in this case) to 18 GHz. Then you put your source into inputs 1, 3, 4, 2 from most to least used. The reason is 18 GHz input cards have one input chip per two inputs. By putting your two primary sources as inputs 1 and 3, you can switch between these two sources faster than if they are on, say, inputs 1 and 2.
> 
> I just posted on why I tell people to get a 9 GHz output card for the 4242. In short I can't see a difference upgrading to 18 GHz even for 4k60 HDR output, and the 9 GHz output has slower edge rates than the 18 GHz output making it easier on marginal TV/projector input designs. Since with the 9 GHz output both outputs can be independently programmed as video, audio, or both, this can help when an audio processor does not implement all the needed audio interrupts and instead depends on video interrupts to know when to change the audio. With the 9 GHz output you can enable both video and audio on Output 1 to the audio processor.
> 
> I have our Trinnov Altitude 16 on Output 1 (currently a 9 GHz output card) of our Radiance Pro 4446 with both audio and video enabled. Our JVC RS4500 is on Output 4. This is an 18 GHz output. This way the Pro can do the switching which is our recommendation.


Hi Jim

So, 18 gHz INpUT card and 9gHz output card for a 4242... Seems like a plan. 

With upgrading 2 cards, cost is pretty similar between an upgraded 9gHz Pro (with 2 18 gHz cards placed at factory) vs an all 18gHz Radiance pro - but the 9gHz cards play better with the 'marginal' HDMI boards on projectors (e.g. my Sony 5000)?

Thanks so much.


----------



## mikela

giomania said:


> Time stamps, please, so I can make my own with MKVToolnix.


I think I'm going to take a shot at this too. I just ordered "Angels & Demons", the only one I didn't have. I just recently started merging with mkvtoolnix so will have to figure it out.


----------



## jrp

David Johannesen said:


> Can a 4240 take a second output card? If not, what kind of handshaking delay would a hdmi splitter introduce when switching sources with JVC projector?


The 424X unit have one (maximum) output card. The 444X have two outputs cards. We recommend a 444X model if you have more than one display/projector as introducing a splitter may cause issues. Of course it may work well with both your display(s) or projector(s).

Depending on the splitter, it might introduce anywhere from about 3 seconds to about 8 seconds of addition "Output restart" time. This is less of an issue if you program the Pro to minimize output restarts as I have discussed in a few recent posts.


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> Jim,
> 
> Would the 072019 update caused any stuttering video and pixelization (not sure if that is the correct term)?


Please update to 072119, which should fix your issues.

The 071919 had debug RS-232 debug print statements. The 072019 tried to get all the debug code out of the release but a section of debug code was missed and remained in the 072019 release.

Having debug code in a public release can introduce, bad frame-flips, screen tearing, or stutter, since our microprocessor is having to do more work than normal. I suspect this is what you saw.

Pixelization to me means you are loosing resolution. I do not think that the debug statements would cause this. If you see a reduction in resolution in 072119, please email us at Lumagen support, or call our support at 503-574-2211.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> Please update to 072119, which should fix your issues.
> 
> 
> 
> The 071919 had debug RS-232 debug print statements. The 072019 tried to get all the debug code out of the release but a section of debug code was missed and remained in the 072019 release.
> 
> 
> 
> Having debug code in a public release can introduce, bad frame-flips, screen tearing, or stutter, since our microprocessor is having to do more work than normal. I suspect this is what you saw.
> 
> 
> 
> Pixelization to me means you are loosing resolution. I do not think that the debug statements would cause this. If you see a reduction in resolution in 072119, please email us at Lumagen support, or call our support at 503-574-2211.




That’s exactly what I have I will try to do the update today hope it will resolve the flipping 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

dgkula said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I have been absent on the forums for the last six to eight months and it is great to see that the DTM is taking off and developing. My setup is quite simple: JVC RS620 onto 16:9 100" Stewart ST100 in a batcave. I watch a mix of HDR/SDR on Roku and on blu ray dvd. I have the HDFury integral setup to switch between custom curves based on HDR metadata.
> 
> I've been following this thread off and on and am debating buying a Lumagen (maybe the 4240) to run either inline between my AVR and projector or roku + blu ray in to lumagen with a/v out to proj and audio out to AVR. In this case I might want more inputs just in case I add devices down the line. How do I think about the 18GHz in/out?
> 
> Given the lack of complexity in my setup (e.g. not anamorphic lens, etc) and my primary interest being DTM (especially for Netflix shows which are always dark, dark, dark) would this me the right choice? Is this a "set it and forget it" type of solution? Don't get me wrong I am technical and have used REW to make custom MiniDSP filters for my 3 subs but haven't touched that in 6+ months (et it and forget it )
> 
> Thanks,
> David


Sent you a PM David.


----------



## WisconsinEric

Kris Deering said:


> Sent you a PM David.


Would you mind sharing your thoughts with me as well?

I am in practically the same boat as David (except I use JVC RS2000) and was looking to benefit from whatever answers he got to his question =]


----------



## Kris Deering

WisconsinEric said:


> Would you mind sharing your thoughts with me as well?
> 
> I am in practically the same boat as David (except I use JVC RS2000) and was looking to benefit from whatever answers he got to his question =]


PM sent


----------



## jrp

Soulnight said:


> Could you provide the formula between ratio, max light and "effective display max light "?


For projectors for the recent DTM release we ended up with results such that you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value. If you change Ratio, the HDR Mapping->Max Light is not the effective value. So leave Ratio = 0 unless you have a good reason not to. The best multiple varies based on personal taste, but this is a good starting point.

Note that if you have a "light cannon" and are getting, say, 400 nits, you will likely want to drop this to about 3X. However, I cannot afford a Light Cannon to get 400 nits on our 14 foot diagonal screen, and so this is an estimate.

Press OK to accept and then Save your changes.

Remember changes to CMS1->HDR Mapping affect all inputs and input memories at factory settings since it is an Output CMS menu and all inputs and all input memories point to CMS1 for HDR source by default.

====== 

For the Low Set Ratio, set it to about 2 times your measured light output. For our RS4500 at 85 nits, with Max Light = 350, I need to set Ratio to 20 to approximate an Effective Display Max Light of about 170. A Ratio of 20 cuts the Effective Light in about half of the Max Light if High-set Ratio = 0. The default of 15 is roughly 0.6 * Max Light for Low-set effective Display Max Light, which also works well.

To figure out the Effective Max Light for the Low Set, go to the "left arrow" parameter menu, and make sure it is showing the Low-set. This is reported on the bottom line. Or if you are not sure, if you have not made an adjustment you can know this since Ratio defaults to 15 for the Low-set and 0 for the High-set. Then turn DTM Off temporarily, and go to the Ratio column.

When you are on the Ratio column in Static mode the line below the Ratio number shows the "effective display max light" value after taking into account the Ratio. Wish we had made this an add/subtract to make it easy to calculate but it is a change to the Ratio, but we didn't. So you have to go to Static mode to see the effective Display Max Light. Once adjusted, again enable DTM. Press OK to accept any changes.

Remember the parameter menu is an input menu. So it applies to one input and one input memory. If you have multiple sources you need copy to inputs and/or input memories you want to propagate the changes to. Save your changes.

======= 

After viewing some material you may choose to make changes to the above. Certainly reasonable since this is going to vary to some degree based on personal preference. However for projectors in the 70 to 140 nit range I believe this is a excellent starting point and you may well agree with me that they are good final settings.

======= 

I have do more work to do to get my recommendations for TVs updated. I am planning to buy an OLED to have in the Lumagen Demo Theater to compare DTM results using our RS4500 image versus the OLED, and to come up with some better recommendations for bright TVs. Not sure when this will happen but stay tuned.


----------



## Eventidal

Hi Jim-

Could you provide all of your HDR settings for the RS4500? DTM and IM. 

I am sure this would be more than helpful for all of us, even for us Sony pj owners.


----------



## RickAVManiac

My turn 🙂 

Cant wait to plug my new Radiance Pro later today. It’s the new DTM that close the deal for me. All other features are good too but as value for money, the Radiance with the DTM is just a sweeter deal...


----------



## baseball0618

Taking the plunge! Just ordered my Radiance Pro and will have Craig Rounds do a custom calibration in my HT using a DCR paladin lens to pair w/ my RS4500. Can't wait to see the results and thank everyone on here for the insight into how the Lumagen works and the constant improvements being made by the folks at Lumagen to keep the performance at the peak of the industry.


----------



## jbrinegar

Quick update to everyone helping me with my earlier apple 4k tv issues (strobe like flashes in dark scenes on itunes hdr movies only) or in case your having this issue yourself.

Originally thought it was due to the lumagen update (it was not ), or due to cables or projector settings.

After some help from apple, figured out it ended up being a bug introduced in the latest apple 4k tv update 12.3 or 12.4 I think. I got a beta update from apple 13.0 and it is fixed. 

This link describes it pretty well:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250384290

Bottom line, big thanks to everyones help on this thread. Problem is gone now. 

Just thought Id share in case anyone else comes across this problem to save them a few hrs of troubleshooting


----------



## jrp

Eventidal said:


> Hi Jim-
> 
> Could you provide all of your HDR settings for the RS4500? DTM and IM.


To have our setup in one place:

JVC RS4500 in mid laser, dynamic laser off, Iris wide open for both SDR and HDR sources.

Stewart Film Screen Studiotek 130, 2.40 aspect, 14 foot diagonal.

Kris Deering did the RS4500 internal "pre-calibration" for us to get the projector to its best possible state. This includes the 100% white point RGB balance. There are similar improvements that can be made in Sony and other projectors.

Measuring about 85 nits using the Pro output set to 4096x2160 (MENU 0877 is the short cut for this). This gives 6.7% more light but forces scaling on. I might go back to 3840x2160 so scaling can be off for 4k 2.35 and 2.40 content and take the 6.7% light output reduction.

RS4500 CMS is off. I forget the menu name for this and not in theater at the moment. If you do this you need a Lightspace 3D LUT calibration for both SDR and HDR. For SDR memory (CMS0) profile and target Rec709 Bt.1886. For HDR source (CMS1) use same profile and target Rec2020 Gamma = 2.4. Auto Convert needs to be off when calibrating.

When HDR Flag is Off projector in "Natural" memory and "HDR" color (color filter is not in light path with these settings), Gamma = 2.3 (because it measured closest to 2.4)

When HDR Flag is On projector in "HDR" memory and "HDR" color (color filter is not in light path with these settings), Gamma = 2.3 (because it measured closest to 2.4)

Pro CMS0->Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = Off, 2020 < - > 601/709 = Auto Convert

Pro CMS1->Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = On, 2020 < - > 601/709 = Auto Convert (Auto Convert not needed but a don't care. I set it so I don't forget when I test with P3 output mode)

Global->Video->Src Format, set all entries to Yes then press OK.

In CMS1->HDR Mapping enable HDR Mapping and set Max Light as discussed in previous posts. For our RS4500 Max Light it is set to 350.

For DTM HDR Parameters I normally use at factory defaults (DTM=On, DLev=5, Ratio, Shape, Tran, DSat, Black, Gamma). However, I am evaluating Low-set Ratio = 20 to get a 2:1 ratio for "effective display max light" between bright scenes (which use Max Light setting), versus dark scenes with a low scene MaxCLL.

============

Notes:

Having HDR Flag = On when outputting SDR2020 for HDR *only* works for JVC projectors since they allow a 2.4 Gamma even when the HDR Flag is on. This is a nice bonus for JVCs as it allows the Pro to select a different memory for SDR and for HDR content so you can adjust settings in each.

For inputs from HDR players (Oppo 203, and Strato), I use Output Setup to always output 23.98 to speed movie startup. If a title is 59.94 I manually switch output to 59.94 using MENU 029 (this is a temporary debug command and seems to turn itself off the next time I select a 23.98 source).

Set both optical and digital black as I describe in the Radiance Pro setup slide set posted previously. Since both SDR and HDR are output as "SDR" the Black level in CMS0 and CMS1 should be the same.

I no longer use Static Tone Mapping (STM). If you want to use STM select STM and set Max Light using a very bright scene (like Mad Max Fury Road). Then check and see if the defaults work for you and if not adjust as described in previous posts.

If I missed something, please post a question and I will try to answer.


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> If I missed something, please post a question and I will try to answer.


Thank you so much, Jim. Highly appreciated!!


----------



## audioguy

baseball0618 said:


> Taking the plunge! Just ordered my Radiance Pro and will have Craig Rounds do a custom calibration in my HT using a DCR paladin lens to pair w/ my RS4500. Can't wait to see the results and thank everyone on here for the insight into how the Lumagen works and the constant improvements being made by the folks at Lumagen to keep the performance at the peak of the industry.


You will love it. Craig was here this past weekend doing my Lumagen/4500/Panamorph.

In a word: STUNNING!! 

You will love it!!


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> For projectors for the recent DTM release we ended up with results such that you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value. If you change Ratio, the HDR Mapping->Max Light is not the effective value. So leave Ratio = 0 unless you have a good reason not to. The best multiple varies based on personal taste, but this is a good starting point.
> 
> Note that if you have a "light cannon" and are getting, say, 400 nits, you will likely want to drop this to about 3X. However, I cannot afford a Light Cannon to get 400 nits on our 14 foot diagonal screen, and so this is an estimate.
> 
> Press OK to accept and then Save your changes.
> 
> Remember changes to CMS1->HDR Mapping affect all inputs and input memories at factory settings since it is an Output CMS menu and all inputs and all input memories point to CMS1 for HDR source by default.
> 
> ======
> 
> For the Low Set Ratio, set it to about 2 times your measured light output. For our RS4500 at 85 nits, with Max Light = 350, I need to set Ratio to 20 to approximate an Effective Display Max Light of about 170. A Ratio of 20 cuts the Effective Light in about half of the Max Light if High-set Ratio = 0. The default of 15 is roughly 0.6 * Max Light for Low-set effective Display Max Light, which also works well.
> 
> To figure out the Effective Max Light for the Low Set, go to the "left arrow" parameter menu, and make sure it is showing the Low-set. This is reported on the bottom line. Or if you are not sure, if you have not made an adjustment you can know this since Ratio defaults to 15 for the Low-set and 0 for the High-set. Then turn DTM Off temporarily, and go to the Ratio column.
> 
> When you are on the Ratio column in Static mode the line below the Ratio number shows the "effective display max light" value after taking into account the Ratio. Wish we had made this an add/subtract to make it easy to calculate but it is a change to the Ratio, but we didn't. So you have to go to Static mode to see the effective Display Max Light. Once adjusted, again enable DTM. Press OK to accept any changes.
> 
> Remember the parameter menu is an input menu. So it applies to one input and one input memory. If you have multiple sources you need copy to inputs and/or input memories you want to propagate the changes to. Save your changes.
> 
> =======
> 
> After viewing some material you may choose to make changes to the above. Certainly reasonable since this is going to vary to some degree based on personal preference. However for projectors in the 70 to 140 nit range I believe this is a excellent starting point and you may well agree with me that they are good final settings.
> 
> =======
> 
> I have do more work to do to get my recommendations for TVs updated. I am planning to buy an OLED to have in the Lumagen Demo Theater to compare DTM results using our RS4500 image versus the OLED, and to come up with some better recommendations for bright TVs. Not sure when this will happen but stay tuned.


I had to read this through a couple of times, but following along with the Radiance Pro menu helped me to understand Jim's instructions. I was messing around on my uncalibrated LG OLED B7A. Now, I don't know if I am going crazy or not, but prior to this software release, even static tone mapping did not seem to make a difference for HDR, and LG's built-in Dynamic Tone Mapping (Dynamic Contrast, set to Low) was better than static tone mapping. 

However, when I evaluated this tonight, now the static tone mapping makes a difference, but I wound up with the Max Light set to 9900, and then the DTM Low-Set Ratio to 20. I was primarily evaluating scenes in The Magnificent 7 and Mad Max Fury Road. The main problem I have is I don't know exactly how these scenes are supposed to look, but I adjust them until they look the best to me.

Next time I fire up the projector, I am going to work on the settings for that display.

Here are the scenes I am referencing; forgive the formatting issues, as I pasted this from Word:

1)	Mad Max Fury Road™ (2015)	Max Mon = 4000, MaxCLL = 9919
▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:28:37	Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
▪	Examples of extremely bright (specular) highlights.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:28:29	Sand Storm: Car exploding in the air.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:28:37	Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:38:13 Muzzle flash; a couple pixels in the 4400 Nit range.
•	Chapter 11 / 1:46.59	Sunset in the desert.

2)	The Martian™ (2015) Max Mon = 1100, MaxCLL = 0
▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
•	Chapter 02 / 0:33:35	Storm approaching.
•	Chapter 21 / 1:19:08	Large setting sun with character sitting on a rock.
•	Chapter 24 / 1:37:35	Sun peeking around dark mountains.

3)	The Magnificent 7™ (2016)	Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = ????
▪	Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
•	Chapter 3 / 0:12:01	Horseback rider cresting hill with sun in the background.
•	MaxCLL = 1113, MaxY = 1752
•	Post about DTM issues with this scene.
•	Chapter 03 / 0:16:00	Dimly lit bar with bright windows & doorway in the background.


----------



## gigimonagas

thrang said:


> Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On
> 
> The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes
> 
> There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet
> 
> So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.
> 
> Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image


I'm in the same boat as you, Thrang. I want to go back to the previous firmware. 

How can I go back to previous firmware?


----------



## gigimonagas

gigimonagas said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, Thrang. I want to go back to the previous firmware.
> 
> How can I go back to previous firmware?


I went back to previous firmware by doing a boot update and brightness, colors and contrast are back to normal. There's definetly something weird with new firmware. Just like Thrang said, image is flat and lifeless and way less brighter at least on my RS4500.


----------



## audioguy

gigimonagas said:


> I went back to previous firmware by doing a boot update and brightness, colors and contrast are back to normal. There's definetly something weird with new firmware. Just like Thrang said, image is flat and lifeless and way less brighter at least on my RS4500.


I had someone walk me through some changes to some of the parameters (can't recall the parameters nor how to do it). While I don't recall everything I changed, I think most were those outlined by Jim in one of his posts above.

I then watched an entire movie with it and did not flip the on/off DTM switch. The images were stunning. At the end of the movie, I started in some random spot and played the on/off game. And while the initial "feel" of what I saw lined up with your comments, when I looked carefully at some of the scenes, it was easy to see how the lighter portion of a specific image actually had better definition. And in some cases, the lighter areas went from "totally washed out" to much more highly defined image.

Jim Peterson or Kris Deering or Craig Rounds would have to validate/clairfy what I am describing.

This is probably not a valid comparison but I offer it nonetheless. When I was into audio retailing, I use to play a trick on my unsuspecting prospects. I would ask them to shut their eyes and compare two reproductions of the same music (there were multiple speakers in front of them). I would "switch back and forth" and ask then which they preferred. However, I actually never switched speakers but had it set up such that one session ON THE SAME SET OF SPEAKERS) was 2dB louder than the other session. And, of course, 100% of them selected the louder comparison. And I think some of that may be going on here. Our eyes instantly prefer the brighter image even before analyzing all of the specifics of the image. As I said, this may not apply but it helps explain to me at least why, when watching the movie without fiddling with the on/off toggle, the image looks spectacular. And only when I do the A/B do I "perceive"something is "wrong".

Clearly, in this case, YMMV!


----------



## Mike Garrett

Received my 4242 yesterday. I installed the rack ears and placed in my rack. Have only checked to see if it powers on or not. Have not connected any cables, doubt I have time to do anything with it until this weekend.


----------



## gigimonagas

audioguy said:


> I had someone walk me through some changes to some of the parameters (can't recall the parameters nor how to do it). While I don't recall everything I changed, I think most were those outlined by Jim in one of his posts above.
> 
> I then watched an entire movie with it and did not flip the on/off DTM switch. The images were stunning. At the end of the movie, I started in some random spot and played the on/off game. And while the initial "feel" of what I saw lined up with your comments, when I looked carefully at some of the scenes, it was easy to see how the lighter portion of a specific image actually had better definition. And in some cases, the lighter areas went from "totally washed out" to much more highly defined image.
> 
> Jim Peterson or Kris Deering or Craig Rounds would have to validate/clairfy what I am describing.
> 
> This is probably not a valid comparison but I offer it nonetheless. When I was into audio retailing, I use to play a trick on my unsuspecting prospects. I would ask them to shut their eyes and compare two reproductions of the same music (there were multiple speakers in front of them). I would "switch back and forth" and ask then which they preferred. However, I actually never switched speakers but had it set up such that one session ON THE SAME SET OF SPEAKERS) was 2dB louder than the other session. And, of course, 100% of them selected the louder comparison. And I think some of that may be going on here. Our eyes instantly prefer the brighter image even before analyzing all of the specifics of the image. As I said, this may not apply but it helps explain to me at least why, when watching the movie without fiddling with the on/off toggle, the image looks spectacular. And only when I do the A/B do I "perceive"something is "wrong".
> 
> Clearly, in this case, YMMV!


I messed around for over an hour trying to get the same results I had with the previous firmware. I even reloaded the firmware again to see if something went wrong during the update. As soon I went back to my image was bright and colors were popping.


----------



## SSnarski

jrp said:


> To have our setup in one place:
> 
> JVC RS4500 in mid laser, dynamic laser off, Iris wide open for both SDR and HDR sources.
> 
> Stewart Film Screen Studiotek 130, 2.40 aspect, 14 foot diagonal.
> 
> Kris Deering did the RS4500 internal "pre-calibration" for us to get the projector to its best possible state. This includes the 100% white point RGB balance. There are similar improvements that can be made in Sony and other projectors.
> 
> Measuring about 85 nits using the Pro output set to 4096x2160 (MENU 0877 is the short cut for this). This gives 6.7% more light but forces scaling on. I might go back to 3840x2160 so scaling can be off for 4k 2.35 and 2.40 content and take the 6.7% light output reduction.
> 
> RS4500 CMS is off. I forget the menu name for this and not in theater at the moment. If you do this you need a Lightspace 3D LUT calibration for both SDR and HDR. For SDR memory (CMS0) profile and target Rec709 Bt.1886. For HDR source (CMS1) use same profile and target Rec2020 Gamma = 2.4. Auto Convert needs to be off when calibrating.
> 
> When HDR Flag is Off projector in "Natural" memory and "HDR" color (color filter is not in light path with these settings), Gamma = 2.3 (because it measured closest to 2.4)
> 
> When HDR Flag is On projector in "HDR" memory and "HDR" color (color filter is not in light path with these settings), Gamma = 2.3 (because it measured closest to 2.4)
> 
> Pro CMS0->Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = Off, 2020 < - > 601/709 = Auto Convert
> 
> Pro CMS1->Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = On, 2020 < - > 601/709 = Auto Convert (Auto Convert not needed but a don't care. I set it so I don't forget when I test with P3 output mode)
> 
> Global->Video->Src Format, set all entries to Yes then press OK.
> 
> In CMS1->HDR Mapping enable HDR Mapping and set Max Light as discussed in previous posts. For our RS4500 Max Light it is set to 350.
> 
> For DTM HDR Parameters I normally use at factory defaults (DTM=On, DLev=5, Ratio, Shape, Tran, DSat, Black, Gamma). However, I am evaluating Low-set Ratio = 20 to get a 2:1 ratio for "effective display max light" between bright scenes (which use Max Light setting), versus dark scenes with a low scene MaxCLL.
> 
> ============
> 
> Notes:
> 
> Having HDR Flag = On when outputting SDR2020 for HDR *only* works for JVC projectors since they allow a 2.4 Gamma even when the HDR Flag is on. This is a nice bonus for JVCs as it allows the Pro to select a different memory for SDR and for HDR content so you can adjust settings in each.
> 
> For inputs from HDR players (Oppo 203, and Strato), I use Output Setup to always output 23.98 to speed movie startup. If a title is 59.94 I manually switch output to 59.94 using MENU 029 (this is a temporary debug command and seems to turn itself off the next time I select a 23.98 source).
> 
> Set both optical and digital black as I describe in the Radiance Pro setup slide set posted previously. Since both SDR and HDR are output as "SDR" the Black level in CMS0 and CMS1 should be the same.
> 
> I no longer use Static Tone Mapping (STM). If you want to use STM select STM and set Max Light using a very bright scene (like Mad Max Fury Road). Then check and see if the defaults work for you and if not adjust as described in previous posts.
> 
> If I missed something, please post a question and I will try to answer.



I am not exactly sure how Chad B has my set up using my JVC RS4500 Lumagen Rad Pro and DCR lens but putting in SHAZAM 4k Disc prior to and after the new release (the first one- i have not loaded the latest one or two) there was a definitive difference noticed on how VIVID the HDR picture looks now, i have had no time to put more movies in since i have been really busy, i have been following the posts as much as possible - I do not know much about the settings Chad B. has in my calibrations but does not appear that they match above, i told him make it project the best possible picture - he is using high laser on HDR - medium laser on SDR and maybe some custom REC2084 calibration (i would have to double check the numbers but def. not REC2020 - i would have to flow through the menu and write some stuff down - but needless to say i am floored at the picture it produces. I am using the Panasonic 9000 UHD player - but I am pretty sure the Rad Pro is doing all the DTM work.


----------



## Heornath

GerryWaz said:


> A new UI with the help built in (with everything in the manual and constantly being updated as features are released or changed and the specific help for a setting accessible by that setting) would be optimal, IMVHO.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm too old fashioned. Reading a manual and then having to sort through hundreds of forum posts for additional nuggets of wisdom is not my "favorite" thing to do.


our man watches the instructions then - when he has already broken everything


----------



## audioguy

GerryWaz said:


> A new UI with the help built in (with everything in the manual and constantly being updated as features are released or changed and the specific help for a setting accessible by that setting) would be optimal, IMVHO.
> 
> I'm too old fashioned. Reading a manual and then having to sort through hundreds of forum posts for additional nuggets of wisdom is not my "favorite" thing to do.


You may, then, want to consider having someone do the calibration for you! Then you don't need to worry about manuals, and help screens and the UI. Write the check and sit back and enjoy.


----------



## LJG

SSnarski said:


> I am not exactly sure how Chad B has my set up using my JVC RS4500 Lumagen Rad Pro and DCR lens but putting in SHAZAM 4k Disc prior to and after the new release (the first one- i have not loaded the latest one or two) there was a definitive difference noticed on how VIVID the HDR picture looks now


Same exact results with Shazam 4K absolutely stunning!!!


----------



## SJHT

Watched Endgame last night. Kris Deering calibrated my 995 and provided me with new settings which he walked me through updating. Thanks Kris! Wow. Hard to see how this could be further improved without a new projector like a Christie Eclipse, but I’m sure Jim and company will keep tweaking... My wife commented how good it looked and that hasn’t happened too often.  The Kaleidescape version of this film is top notch. SJ


----------



## GerryWaz

audioguy said:


> You may, then, want to consider having someone do the calibration for you! Then you don't need to worry about manuals, and help screens and the UI. Write the check and sit back and enjoy.


I was actually just about to do that. 

Jim Peterson recommended a local calibrator to me last week who knows the Radiance, and I was going to contact that person. But, before that, I decided to do one last trial. 

I'm probably one of the few folks here who use the Radiance Pro with a regular TV and not a projector--in my case, the Sony 75Z9D. Netflix HDR from my Roku Ultimate box was looking faded and drab. So I wanted to try connecting the video feed from the Roku directly to the 75Z9D and see how it looked in comparison.

As I was about to do that and shift my HDMI cables around (I use Tributaries UHD Pro 2.0M cables as recommended by Jim), I remembered what he had said recently about making sure your HDMI cable plugs were all the way inserted. Turns out a couple of mine were not, probably just around a 1/8 inch "off" from being completely inserted.

Making the connections very snug made all the difference in the world. HDR content from Netflix is now colorful and popping.  Even SD content is more detailed and popping.  Something that simple. I fool so feelish. 

So, for now, I'm back to reviewing all the documentation and trying a few tweaks first to see if I can improve what is right now very, very acceptable.

I'm good technically on most things but when it comes to HDR stuff, it gets too confusing too fast with all the acronyms and standards and options, so a calibrator is defintely the way I'll go if I want more.

I'm also more of a visual learner as I get older. I need to both read and see things. Sometimes wish there were some up-to-date videos on these things on something like YouTube--or a local or streamed class or two.


----------



## Craig Peer

After downloading firmware 071919 and 072019, I had the same issue Thrang had - I watched " La La Land " with some friends, and thought it did not have the same look as the previous DTM had. It looked flat, and colors weren't as bright. But then I installed the latest 072119 version, and yesterday while changing gamma settings while walking Terry Honaker through installing the latest RS4500 firmware, something changed. I had " Captain Marvel " on 4K on and it suddenly got brighter. I tested La La Land and it looks just as good or better than before firmware 071919. Not sure what happened. " Ghost In The Machine ".


----------



## FenceMan

I hesitate to even say this because I am far from qualified but add my name to the list of folks thinking that the previous DTM was better and much more vibrant.


----------



## BrolicBeast

I'm wondering if this is just based on evaluating popular test material mentioned on this thread, because my experience is showing superior performance in lighter and dark scenes with the new firmware.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## SSnarski

BrolicBeast said:


> I'm wondering if this is just based on evaluating popular test material mentioned on this thread, because my experience is showing superior performance in lighter and dark scenes with the new firmware.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



I only have 071919 loaded, i am going to load the latest 072119 when i get a chance - it appears that 071919 gave some people different results, i am sure there were some bugs somewhere, hence the re-release of two more quick updates, because it obviously regressed some peoples DTM from what it was prior - for me i would say it worked great

BrolicBeast not sure which latest firmware you have loaded - as Craig pointed out there were three 071919 - 072019 - and 072119


One movie i am going to try out next would be Captain Marvel, one of the worst 4k UHD discs picture wise i have seen to date besides the original Superman 4K Disc - that one has to be the worst i have seen, might even throw it in the garbage - absolutely terrible

I believe someone mentioned Captain Marvel might have just been filmed to look like that - i want to see what the new DTM does to some of the dark scenes in that movie - Looked pretty good on my 77" OLED - but on the RS4500 not so much! These movies were watched prior to the new DTM updates.


----------



## Craig Peer

SSnarski said:


> I only have 071919 loaded, i am going to load the latest 072119 when i get a chance - it appears that 071919 gave some people different results, i am sure there were some bugs somewhere, hence the re-release of two more quick updates, because it obviously regressed some peoples DTM from what it was prior - for me i would say it worked great
> 
> BrolicBeast not sure which latest firmware you have loaded - as Craig pointed out there were three 071919 - 072019 - and 072119
> 
> 
> One movie i am going to try out next would be Captain Marvel, one of the worst 4k UHD discs picture wise i have seen to date besides the original Superman 4K Disc - that one has to be the worst i have seen, might even throw it in the garbage - absolutely terrible
> 
> I believe someone mentioned Captain Marvel might have just been filmed to look like that - i want to see what the new DTM does to some of the dark scenes in that movie - Looked pretty good on my 77" OLED - but on the RS4500 not so much! These movies were watched prior to the new DTM updates.


I watched " Captain Marvel " with the older 042119 DTM firmware on my RS4500 ( I have no OLED - or really any TV other than a smaller HDTV for watching the news ) and I thought it looked good. It appeared to look as good if not better yesterday with the latest firmware. Hell, " Solo " looks good on my 4500 !  I'm going to wait on watching a bunch of new 4K Blu-rays until after Kris Deering calibrates my RS4500 next Thursday. I have plenty of movies on Blu-ray to catch up on in the mean time.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> After downloading firmware 071919 and 072019, I had the same issue Thrang had - I watched " La La Land " with some friends, and thought it did not have the same look as the previous DTM had. It looked flat, and colors weren't as bright. But then I installed the latest 072119 version, a*nd yesterday while changing gamma settings* while walking Terry Honaker through installing the latest RS4500 firmware, something changed. I had " Captain Marvel " on 4K on and it suddenly got brighter. I tested La La Land and it looks just as good or better than before firmware 071919. Not sure what happened. " Ghost In The Machine ".


My bet is the change of Gamma settings is what you are seeing. I upgraded a bit ago from 7-20 to 7-21 and see absolutely zero difference.

I would add that when I don't play the DTM On/Off game, the image is simply stellar, I see no flatness or dullness. Looks great.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> My bet is the change of Gamma settings is what you are seeing. I upgraded a bit ago from 7-20 to 7-21 and see absolutely zero difference.
> 
> I would add that when I don't play the DTM On/Off game, the image is simply stellar, I see no flatness or dullness. Looks great.


Maybe I had something set wrong from futzing with settings. Seems good now.


----------



## BrolicBeast

One of my DTM evaluation scenes not on the top 5 I posted earlier in this thread. Check out the lights and shadows in this scene. It's a cell phone camera, but some of it should hopefully come through:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B067VHJAesd/?igshid=2n24ounht95c

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## BrolicBeast

@SSnarski I'm using the 21 variant! Working great for me! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## GeorgeHolland

LJG said:


> Same exact results with Shazam 4K absolutely stunning!!!


I watched the movie as well after Kris updated my Lumagen and did a touch up on my lowly RS500. While the picture was amazing and I hadn't viewed it prior to the upgrade, keeping engaged with the movie itself was difficult. I can appreciate teen themed movies but Shazam was not one I think I can watch many more times, wish I hadn't purchased it.

I am looking forward to more captivating releases or re-releases to enjoy what appears after limited tests to be a very nice upgrade after the latest firmware. Of course much of that could be due to Kris's expertise, he is a gentleman and skilled calibrater to be sure.


----------



## galaxyluv

Gotchaa said:


> Anyone with 18ghz outputs experiencing green screen on 042119? Multiple reboots flash down and back up seem to make no difference at this point.


I am also experiencing the same issue. Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242-18GHz. Using Beta 072119 Firmware.


----------



## audioguy

GeorgeHolland said:


> keeping engaged with the movie itself was difficult. I can appreciate teen themed movies but Shazam was not one I think I can watch many more times, wish I hadn't purchased it.


I would agree with you. In my case, other than using some scenes to check out how DTM is working, I won't be watching it again ...... at all! I wish I could say this is the only movie I have purchased, that after watching, regretted my purchase.


----------



## SSnarski

Craig Peer said:


> I watched " Captain Marvel " with the older 042119 DTM firmware on my RS4500 ( I have no OLED - or really any TV other than a smaller HDTV for watching the news ) and I thought it looked good. It appeared to look as good if not better yesterday with the latest firmware. Hell, " Solo " looks good on my 4500 !  I'm going to wait on watching a bunch of new 4K Blu-rays until after Kris Deering calibrates my RS4500 next Thursday. I have plenty of movies on Blu-ray to catch up on in the mean time.





Craig, I downloaded the latest firmware last night and did not notice any change from the 071919, picture still great, i am very pleased with the complete set up even more so with the latest DTM changes on the lumagen rad pro - I was just using Shazam 4k as a reference point because it was the latest 4K UHD Disc to release at the time the new DTM went into play and it was already in the UHD player (i played a few scenes right before the first update) - When i am comparing apples to oranges from a 77" OLED with DV to the RS4500 set up i have in my theater you can see motion and other things where the OLED can't be matched - size does come into play for the immersion in the theater room - but i think with the latest changes to the DTM the results are very, very, good - I am sure many have there favorite movie that they keep returning to that they catch watch over and over time and time again.


----------



## LJG

GeorgeHolland said:


> I watched the movie as well after Kris updated my Lumagen and did a touch up on my lowly RS500. While the picture was amazing and I hadn't viewed it prior to the upgrade, keeping engaged with the movie itself was difficult. I can appreciate teen themed movies but Shazam was not one I think I can watch many more times, wish I hadn't purchased it.
> 
> I am looking forward to more captivating releases or re-releases to enjoy what appears after limited tests to be a very nice upgrade after the latest firmware. Of course much of that could be due to Kris's expertise, he is a gentleman and skilled calibrater to be sure.


I was only referring to the visual quality of the movie not its contents.


----------



## youngsyp

jrp said:


> 2) Still waiting on feedback on this one. You can select CMS1->Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = On, auto convert is still a don't care with these settings. Still set Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR in the HDR Mapping. This will work best for a TV that has a "one size fits all" tone mapping. The TV will give you more brightness since it thinks the Radiance Pro is sending HDR.
> 
> As part of this you need to do a 1D LUT calibration to 2.4 Gamma to undo the TVs attempts at a Bt.2084 Gamma. Use the Gamma_Factor = 0.80 first to get the Gamma a little closer to 2.4, and then run a normal SDR 2.4 Gamma calibration. So we fool the TV to output more light, but still allow the Pro to have room for Tone Mapping to work. For an OLED, I think you will end up with Max Light in the range of 500 to perhaps as high as 1200.
> 
> If the TV has DTM, you have to disable it. If the TV's DTM cannot be disabled Option 2 is not likely going work out. If the TV pays attention to the MaxCLL, but in a static way, this should work, but potentially only after I get Pat to add a fixed MaxCLL in the Pro output Metadata for this "non-HDR but with HDR flag" mode.
> 
> If you want to give Option 2 a try, you can call me on the Lumagen support line (503-574-2211) as you have questions. I am usually in around 9 AM Pacific time and am usually available until late evening.
> 
> I am still waiting for someone to try Option 2 and report back. It should work, but need feedback to confirm.


Just wanted to give some feedback on this one.

My TV is a 2016 LG OLED (OLED55B6V).

I set up the input and output settings as per Jim's instruction. Checked Black level and measured peak white, using a 1% and 11% patch. There was little difference between the two with a peak luminance value of around 650 nits. So far so good.

Then I performed a quick greyscale profile, (using LightSpace) and unfortunately, the TV was using a PQ EOTF for gamma. So that's a bust, at least with the LG OLED's.

However, it appears that the latest Panasonic OLED's allow the user to adjust the 'HDMI EOTF Type' and one of the options is 'Traditional gamma'. I'll be buying one of these at some point so, will re-try 'option 2' once I have one sitting on front of me.

Paul


----------



## Craig Peer

SSnarski said:


> Craig, I downloaded the latest firmware last night and did not notice any change from the 071919, picture still great, i am very pleased with the complete set up even more so with the latest DTM changes on the lumagen rad pro - I was just using Shazam 4k as a reference point because it was the latest 4K UHD Disc to release at the time the new DTM went into play and it was already in the UHD player (i played a few scenes right before the first update) - When i am comparing apples to oranges from a 77" OLED with DV to the RS4500 set up i have in my theater you can see motion and other things where the OLED can't be matched - size does come into play for the immersion in the theater room - but i think with the latest changes to the DTM the results are very, very, good - I am sure many have there favorite movie that they keep returning to that they catch watch over and over time and time again.


All seems good now. But I've decided to catch up on Blu-rays I haven't had a chance to watch and stockpile new 4K discs until after Kris gets here next week !


----------



## Kris Deering

youngsyp said:


> Just wanted to give some feedback on this one.
> 
> My TV is a 2016 LG OLED (OLED55B6V).
> 
> I set up the input and output settings as per Jim's instruction. Checked Black level and measured peak white, using a 1% and 11% patch. There was little difference between the two with a peak luminance value of around 650 nits. So far so good.
> 
> Then I performed a quick greyscale profile, (using LightSpace) and unfortunately, the TV was using a PQ EOTF for gamma. So that's a bust, at least with the LG OLED's.
> 
> However, it appears that the latest Panasonic OLED's allow the user to adjust the 'HDMI EOTF Type' and one of the options is 'Traditional gamma'. I'll be buying one of these at some point so, will re-try 'option 2' once I have one sitting on front of me.
> 
> Paul


This isn't working most likely because Jim said to have the HDR flag in the colorspace output to ON. It should be OFF. Otherwise the display thinks it is getting an HDR signal, and you don't want that. I would try again with that to OFF and it will probably work just fine.


----------



## youngsyp

Kris Deering said:


> This isn't working most likely because Jim said to have the HDR flag in the colorspace output to ON. It should be OFF. Otherwise the display thinks it is getting an HDR signal, and you don't want that. I would try again with that to OFF and it will probably work just fine.


Yes I agree but, the peak luminance wouldn't be high enough without the HDR flag set to ON. That was the issue Jim was trying to work around I believe.

Paul


----------



## Kris Deering

youngsyp said:


> Yes I agree but, the peak luminance wouldn't be high enough without the HDR flag set to ON. That was the issue Jim was trying to work around I believe.
> 
> Paul


Ah, understood. I imagine you've tried doing it this way and put the panel brightness to max. I have never attempted this with a OLED. It is unfortunate that the 6 series OLEDs just weren't that great for tone mapping.


----------



## youngsyp

Kris Deering said:


> Ah, understood. I imagine you've tried doing it this way and put the panel brightness to max. I have never attempted this with a OLED. It is unfortunate that the 6 series OLEDs just weren't that great for tone mapping.


Yes, exactly. It hits around 450 nits peak using a power law gamma setting, and I don't typically watch the TV in a pitch black environment, which isn't ideal.

In my experience, limited though I admit, the B6 does a reasonable job of tone mapping. Paired with the Panasonic UB820 Blu-ray deck, with the HDR Optimiser enabled, it certainly improves though.

Paul


----------



## bferbrache

I have a small issue that I was hoping someone could help me with. My Nvidia Shield outputs SDR when viewing menus but when I watch Amazon Prime and the output switches to HDR I lose audio to my Denon receiver from the Radiance. A reboot of the Radiance or quick switch of inputs solves the problem but I was hoping there might be a way to avoid having to do this?
Thanks
Brian


----------



## audioguy

More thoughts on why the switch between DTM on and off makes "off" look brighter than "on".

There is a scene at the beginning of Shazam!, where the young boy is in the backseat of the car, the passengers in the front seat are gone and the windows begin to ice over. While that scene was playing, I turned DTM on and off and what popped out to me was that while the "off" position was clearly brighter, the detail of the ice on the windows was bleached out compared to when DTM was on.

So maybe what we are seeing is the same thing you see when you walk through the isles of Best Buys or Costco or other big stores. That is, your eyes are drawn to the brightest image - EVEN IF THE BRIGHTNESS OF THAT TV IS SET WELL ABOVE WHAT IT SHOULD BE IF PROPERLY CALIBRATED.

I have come to this (possible) conclusion because when I DON'T play with the DTM on/off toggle and just watch the movie, it looks spectacular. Are there still some very dark scenes? Yes. Would I like them brighter? Certainly. But just maybe that is what they are supposed to look like. In fact. Kris Deering compared the two scenes that I first commented about on Shazam! (the above referenced scene in the car, and the following scenes in the cave) on his projector system and on his OLED. He commented, based upon that comparison, that that is how the scenes were apparently authored.

Recommendation: Either (1) go back a few iterations of the Lumagen firmware so that when you do the comparison, DTM on looks "brighter" or; (2) Don't play with the DTM toggle switch.


----------



## giomania

bferbrache said:


> I have a small issue that I was hoping someone could help me with. My Nvidia Shield outputs SDR when viewing menus but when I watch Amazon Prime and the output switches to HDR I lose audio to my Denon receiver from the Radiance. A reboot of the Radiance or quick switch of inputs solves the problem but I was hoping there might be a way to avoid having to do this?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Brian




Assuming you are using Premium certified cables, try different inputs on the Denon AVR?

If no joy, maybe adjustment of the HDMI input settings for that particular input will have some desired improvements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> Ah, understood. I imagine you've tried doing it this way and put the panel brightness to max. I have never attempted this with a OLED. It is unfortunate that the 6 series OLEDs just weren't that great for tone mapping.




What about the seven series LG OLED’s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## tibia

*Gamut Choice*

I have JVC RS600, OPPO 203, Radiance Pro and auto-calibrate with current version Chromapure 3. My preferred viewing is 4K UHD blu-ray movies. In trying to get as close as I can to what I see in my local Regal Cinema. To that end I have been calibrating to DCI-P3 gamut and am generally pleased with the results, especially with the latest Lumagen firmware. I follow this forum daily and can't remember when or if I have ever seen any mention of DCI-P3. So my question is, does anyone here use it and if not, why not?


----------



## Kris Deering

giomania said:


> What about the seven series LG OLED’s?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


7 series and up look fine. Their auto tone map actually does a pretty good job too. I wouldn't set the output to SDR in the Lumagen for a 7 series and up, I would set to output HDR and turn DTM on with a display max of about 700-800.


----------



## Kris Deering

tibia said:


> I have JVC RS600, OPPO 203, Radiance Pro and auto-calibrate with current version Chromapure 3. My preferred viewing is 4K UHD blu-ray movies. In trying to get as close as I can to what I see in my local Regal Cinema. To that end I have been calibrating to DCI-P3 gamut and am generally pleased with the results, especially with the latest Lumagen firmware. I follow this forum daily and can't remember when or if I have ever seen any mention of DCI-P3. So my question is, does anyone here use it and if not, why not?


It works now that they have fixed the conversion. You ONLY want to use that if you have the output setup for SDRP3 with the conversion set to ON. Remember, the content is in 2020, not P3. I also wouldn't base too much on the local cinema. That is a low nit grade and a completely different type of projector for dynamic range. You should be getting a MUCH better image than your local cinema if calibrated properly.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> More thoughts on why the switch between DTM on and off makes "off" look brighter than "on".
> 
> There is a scene at the beginning of Shazam!, where the young boy is in the backseat of the car, the passengers in the front seat are gone and the windows begin to ice over. While that scene was playing, I turned DTM on and off and what popped out to me was that while the "off" position was clearly brighter, the detail of the ice on the windows was bleached out compared to when DTM was on.
> 
> So maybe what we are seeing is the same thing you see when you walk through the isles of Best Buys or Costco or other big stores. That is, your eyes are drawn to the brightest image - EVEN IF THE BRIGHTNESS OF THAT TV IS SET WELL ABOVE WHAT IT SHOULD BE IF PROPERLY CALIBRATED.
> 
> I have come to this (possible) conclusion because when I DON'T play with the DTM on/off toggle and just watch the movie, it looks spectacular. Are there still some very dark scenes? Yes. Would I like them brighter? Certainly. But just maybe that is what they are supposed to look like. In fact. Kris Deering compared the two scenes that I first commented about on Shazam! (the above referenced scene in the car, and the following scenes in the cave) on his projector system and on his OLED. He commented, based upon that comparison, that that is how the scenes were apparently authored.
> 
> Recommendation: Either (1) go back a few iterations of the Lumagen firmware so that when you do the comparison, DTM on looks "brighter" or; (2) Don't play with the DTM toggle switch.


What you are seeing has to do with the way the dynamic processor compensates for transitions. It has to have headroom for highlights that could come in the next scene so you don't get blow outs or clipping. I am working with Lumagen on a new update that will help with this on some titles because of certain protections that can be used, but not sure if it would help with that specific title. I will look tonight though. There is an update in the works that I'm very happy with that resolves some issues with this last one. As always, stay tuned!


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> What you are seeing has to do with the way the dynamic processor compensates for transitions. It has to have headroom for highlights that could come in the next scene so you don't get blow outs or clipping. I am working with Lumagen on a new update that will help with this on some titles because of certain protections that can be used, but not sure if it would help with that specific title. I will look tonight though. There is an update in the works that I'm very happy with that resolves some issues with this last one. As always, stay tuned!


How cool is it that Lumagen (aka Jim Peterson) won't "rest on their laurels" but rather is ALWAYS improving the product and via a 5 minute download/install process, we get the benefits. This product certainly sits near the top of my better AV purchase decisions.


----------



## Kris Deering

Looked at Shazam. Stuff I’m testing improves that opening scene quite a bit. Dynamic much better than static and the other thing is helping as well. Talked the powers that be to try something new that I’m hoping I can test this weekend. If it turns out like I’m envisioning there will be some super happy campers here! Great that Jim and Pat have been so receptive to inputs!!


----------



## bferbrache

giomania said:


> Assuming you are using Premium certified cables, try different inputs on the Denon AVR?
> 
> If no joy, maybe adjustment of the HDMI input settings for that particular input will have some desired improvements.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks for the response, I have ordered another cable for the audio out as you suggest (I wasn’t aware that the audio cable had to be premium certified), hopefully that will improve things 
Brian


----------



## littlemoses

youngsyp said:


> Just wanted to give some feedback on this one.
> 
> My TV is a 2016 LG OLED (OLED55B6V).
> 
> I set up the input and output settings as per Jim's instruction. Checked Black level and measured peak white, using a 1% and 11% patch. There was little difference between the two with a peak luminance value of around 650 nits. So far so good.
> 
> Then I performed a quick greyscale profile, (using LightSpace) and unfortunately, the TV was using a PQ EOTF for gamma. So that's a bust, at least with the LG OLED's.
> 
> However, it appears that the latest Panasonic OLED's allow the user to adjust the 'HDMI EOTF Type' and one of the options is 'Traditional gamma'. I'll be buying one of these at some point so, will re-try 'option 2' once I have one sitting on front of me.
> 
> Paul


 @youngsyp



> However, it appears that the latest Panasonic OLED's allow the user to adjust the 'HDMI EOTF Type' and one of the options is 'Traditional gamma'. I'll be buying one of these at some point so, will re-try 'option 2' once I have one sitting on front of me.


I am the owner of a 2018 Panasonic OLED. Unfortunately the "Traditional gamma" option will "disable" HDR. I did not find a way to get a traditional gamma response with full panel brightness. Do you suggest that this had changed with the 2019 models? And even it would be possible, there is still the limitation of the WOLED panel (only white is going up to ~750nits / RGB is "clipping" at ~400 nits).


----------



## bferbrache

bferbrache said:


> Thanks for the response, I have ordered another cable for the audio out as you suggest (I wasn’t aware that the audio cable had to be premium certified), hopefully that will improve things
> Brian


Tried it with a certified cable from the Radiance audio output to the Denon and tried a different hdmi input but unfortunately the glitch is still present. Can anyone suggest what else I could try?
Thanks 
Brian


----------



## bobof

bferbrache said:


> Tried it with a certified cable from the Radiance audio output to the Denon and tried a different hdmi input but unfortunately the glitch is still present. Can anyone suggest what else I could try?


Probably best contact Support directly. I've been working through a similar but different issue with one particular source and audio disappearing during chapter skips occasionally. Jim had quite a list of things that might improve matters (none have worked for me yet, still debugging it, sure we'll get there).

One of those things on the list if I recall is seeing if you use the audio+video output from the Lumagen to the AVR (instead of just the audio) does that help?


----------



## Sandel

I'm using a Paladin DCR for my JVC RS4500 on a 21:9 Stewart screen, so all the 16:9 content has black vertical bars left and right of the screen.
Now I wonder how to get different maskings within the Lumagen settings for 16:9 and 21:9 separately as I need to mask the 16:9 picture differently than my 21:9 picture.
Do I need to use different memory settings, or what's the best way here?

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

I'm finding the conversations on DTM behaviour / previous tone mapping version interesting. I've personally found the new version of DTM to be a very welcome improvement over the previous, really looking forward to seeing what else lies in store.

Most notably for me; my main annoyance (incidents of luminance jumping through scene detection) are massively minimized (I've only seen two so far, both reported).

On the DTM on / off thing; if I look at an SDR-ish scene I find that with DTM off though it receives an instant "boost" at the point of turning it off, the scene bares very little resemblance in tone to the same scene in true colorist-created SDR. So I'm sure that DTM is getting us very much closer to the artistic intent for the movie.

Personally I choose to have my ratio between display max light and actual display output a bit higher. I have about 75-80 nits at the screen and set it at 400. Turning off the DTM then shows that for the low set ratio to result in a low set effective max light around double my peak nits I need to adjust the ratio in the low set to around 25-26. If I have the display max light lower than that I don't find the image as satisfying.

For the rest of the setup - I have a 3DLUT targeting DCI-P3 and gamma 2.4, with the CMS set to DCI-P3 / 3DLUT set to HDR. My projector is a JVC DLA-X7900 with the filter "tricked" into place, running in profile off mode. 3DLUT created with Lightspace.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I'm finding the conversations on DTM behaviour / previous tone mapping version interesting. I've personally found the new version of DTM to be a very welcome improvement over the previous, really looking forward to seeing what else lies in store.
> 
> Most notably for me; my main annoyance (incidents of luminance jumping through scene detection) are massively minimized (I've only seen two so far, both reported).
> 
> On the DTM on / off thing; if I look at an SDR-ish scene I find that with DTM off though it receives an instant "boost" at the point of turning it off, the scene bares very little resemblance in tone to the same scene in true colorist-created SDR. So I'm sure that DTM is getting us very much closer to the artistic intent for the movie.
> 
> Personally I choose to have my ratio between display max light and actual display output a bit higher. I have about 75-80 nits at the screen and set it at 400. Turning off the DTM then shows that for the low set ratio to result in a low set effective max light around double my peak nits I need to adjust the ratio in the low set to around 25-26. If I have the display max light lower than that I don't find the image as satisfying.
> 
> For the rest of the setup - I have a 3DLUT targeting DCI-P3 and gamma 2.4, with the CMS set to DCI-P3 / 3DLUT set to HDR. My projector is a JVC DLA-X7900 with the filter "tricked" into place, running in profile off mode. 3DLUT created with Lightspace.


DTM off is basically static, and with that last build the coding on static was actually wrong, which is why everyone keeps seeing so much disparity. That will be resolved shortly. 

Looking at your settings, 400 is probably good, if not slightly low. I would look at some really high nit content to see if that is allowing enough latitude without artifacts. The Meg, the Spears and Munsil 4K disc and Starship Troopers are all good high nit discs to look at. 

My biggest concern with your setup would be the LUT set to HDR. For your setup I would highly suggest SDRP3 with gamma output set to SDR. Then have the projector calibrated to P3/D65 with a gamma of 2.4. If I am understanding your setup, you are double tone mapping, which would not be advised.


----------



## jrp

We are working on a new update to the DTM release.

Note that from a Tone Mapping perspective 071919, 072019, and 072119 are identical. The only changes were to remove some unwanted debug code. With the debug code left in the release (071919, 072019) you might have seen some bad frame flips, or screen tearing, but the processing is the same.

===== 

After my post on comparing STM to DTM, we investigated why STM was brighter than DTM, when this should not have been the case. The fact that Static Tone Mapping (STM) was brighter than Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) in these three release was due to some DTM code being active in STM. This was making STM incorrectly brighter by effectively reducing the Max Light value. While a specific scene looked brighter and so some might have thought it looked better, if one analysed a lot of content the user would have increased Max Light to optimize different content and negated the incorrect brightness increase. DTM should always be as bright (bright scenes near the STM MaxCLL) or brighter (dark scenes) since the scene's MaxCLL is lower than, or equal to, the movies MaxCLL. We will have this correction in the next release.

===== 

In a previous post I mentioned the Low-set "effective Display Max Light" being set to approximately two times the measured nits of the projector, and the CMS1 Max Light being set to approximately four times the measured nits (with High-set Ratio = 0). This was based on a lot of evaluation by myself, Kris Deering and others. After my recommendation post Kris did a lot more evaluation on content with 072119. Based on his results the Low-Set recommendation is the same, but we are changing the CMS1 "Max Light" multiplier recommendation to "in the range of four to eight times the measured light in nits." This requires some further explanation. 

With the CMS1 Max Light at four times the measured light, images are brighter than at an eight times multiple. In contrast the eight times multiple, while darker, preserves more color saturation in bright objects. This can improve the detail in bright saturated colors. So this means user preference comes into play choosing to either maximize brightness, or maximize bright color saturation, or balance these two objectives. I have increased our Demo Theater multiple to about five after doing more evaluation, and I think Kris is liking the Max Light multiple of around eight.

=====

The next release will have a few other improvements for scenes Kris found. So it will be even better than the previous 072119 release.


----------



## tibia

Kris Deering said:


> It works now that they have fixed the conversion. You ONLY want to use that if you have the output setup for SDRP3 with the conversion set to ON. Remember, the content is in 2020, not P3. I also wouldn't base too much on the local cinema. That is a low nit grade and a completely different type of projector for dynamic range. You should be getting a MUCH better image than your local cinema if calibrated properly.


Kris, thanks for your comments. My local Regal cinema uses Sony projectors and one Barco in its largest auditorium. For sure, the image I get at home is significantly better than any of those at the cinema mostly due to JVC's superior native black level. I do have the Radiance output set to SDRP3 but have never been sure about the conversion setting. The OSD simply says "conversion" when SDRP3 is selected whereas if SDR2020 is selected, OSD offers "2020601/709." In reality is this the same conversion as what is shown when SDRP3 is the selected output? Or is it actually converting P3 to 601/709 rather than 2020 to 601/709?


----------



## Kris Deering

tibia said:


> Kris, thanks for your comments. My local Regal cinema uses Sony projectors and one Barco in its largest auditorium. For sure, the image I get at home is significantly better than any of those at the cinema mostly due to JVC's superior native black level. I do have the Radiance output set to SDRP3 but have never been sure about the conversion setting. The OSD simply says "conversion" when SDRP3 is selected whereas if SDR2020 is selected, OSD offers "2020601/709." In reality is this the same conversion as what is shown when SDRP3 is the selected output? Or is it actually converting P3 to 601/709 rather than 2020 to 601/709?


In the CMS, if you select output colorspace as SDRP3 and have conversion ON, it is changing 2020 to P3. The Lumagen also offers 2020 conversion to 709, but that is a different selection.


----------



## tibia

Kris Deering said:


> In the CMS, if you select output colorspace as SDRP3 and have conversion ON, it is changing 2020 to P3. The Lumagen also offers 2020 conversion to 709, but that is a different selection.


Great! Your response is what I hoped it would be. I am a happy camper now and always pay attention to whatever you write.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> DTM off is basically static, and with that last build the coding on static was actually wrong, which is why everyone keeps seeing so much disparity. That will be resolved shortly.
> 
> Looking at your settings, 400 is probably good, if not slightly low. I would look at some really high nit content to see if that is allowing enough latitude without artifacts. The Meg, the Spears and Munsil 4K disc and Starship Troopers are all good high nit discs to look at.
> 
> My biggest concern with your setup would be the LUT set to HDR. For your setup I would highly suggest SDRP3 with gamma output set to SDR. Then have the projector calibrated to P3/D65 with a gamma of 2.4. If I am understanding your setup, you are double tone mapping, which would not be advised.


Hi Kris; thanks, interesting that DTM off is currently weird. I had wondered as I'd never noticed such a big difference before from turning DTM off. 

I was previous to the current version using a fair bit higher than 400 max light as it looked better (600 most often recently) - I tried Jim's recomendation of 2-4x and disliked it, but 400 seems OK. Currently 400/26 for low ratio seems to get me closest to the behaviour of SDR areas of HDR discs, but I'm going to keep playing. I dislike having max light as low as Jim suggests (only 3-4x peak nits) because it seems to give problems with highlight areas (ie faces in sunshine) which seem to lose all detail and surface contrast.

I'm only tone mapping in the Pro. The JVC X7900 is in profile off mode with gamma set to 2.4 (but not calibrated - as it is in profile off autocal has no effect). I've tricked the projector into slipping the filter in with profile off which you can't do from the menus, which gets me the completely linear colorimetry of the profile off mode with the native panel gamut and gamma (so the LUT is also correcting the gamma droop)

The profile off / filter on mode of the projector is profiled with Lightspace, and then a 2.4 power gamma P3 LUT is created (because it is closer to P3 than 2020, so need to waster RGB code values) and the Lumagen output is set to P3 with the LUT having 2.4 SDR gamma. Seems to work...

Edit: interesting, I see Jim just updated his recommendation on max light prior to me posting. I'd been using 600 (sometimes 700) for a few months and did think it looked very good, though I thought it seemed a little darker in some scenes with the most recent release.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Hi Kris; thanks, interesting that DTM off is currently weird. I had wondered as I'd never noticed such a big difference before from turning DTM off.
> 
> I was previous to the current version using a fair bit higher than 400 max light as it looked better (600 most often recently) - I tried Jim's recomendation of 2-4x and disliked it, but 400 seems OK. Currently 400/26 for low ratio seems to get me closest to the behaviour of SDR areas of HDR discs, but I'm going to keep playing. I dislike having max light as low as Jim suggests (only 3-4x peak nits) because it seems to give problems with highlight areas (ie faces in sunshine) which seem to lose all detail and surface contrast.
> 
> I'm only tone mapping in the Pro. The JVC X7900 is in profile off mode with gamma set to 2.4 (but not calibrated - as it is in profile off autocal has no effect). I've tricked the projector into slipping the filter in with profile off which you can't do from the menus, which gets me the completely linear colorimetry of the profile off mode with the native panel gamut and gamma (so the LUT is also correcting the gamma droop)
> 
> The profile off / filter on mode of the projector is profiled with Lightspace, and then a 2.4 power gamma P3 LUT is created (because it is closer to P3 than 2020, so need to waster RGB code values) and the Lumagen output is set to P3 with the LUT having 2.4 SDR gamma. Seems to work...
> 
> Edit: interesting, I see Jim just updated his recommendation on max light prior to me posting. I'd been using 600 (sometimes 700) for a few months and did think it looked very good, though I thought it seemed a little darker in some scenes with the most recent release.


Agree completely with the lower display max light. You have to be very careful what you use to set these values. I prefer to use content that is not stylized. Movies are hard to use because they stylize the crap out of them and its hard to know exactly what it should look like without a reference (though I do second check everything against my calibrated OLED using a DV grade if I have one). I've been using the JVC HDR demo or the new Spears and Munsil a bit more, looking for scenes with higher peaks and APL. You'll find settings that make a movie look good will make natural photography look wrong, especially in flesh tones and foliage colors. 

I've read about the trick for using the filter. Does this require you to do anything every time you start the projector or is it set this once and you're good to go? You can PM on this if you'd like to keep the thread on topic.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> In a previous post I mentioned the Low-set "effective Display Max Light" being set to approximately two times the measured nits of the projector, and the CMS1 Max Light being set to approximately four times the measured nits (with High-set Ratio = 0). This was based on a lot of evaluation by myself, Kris Deering and others. After my recommendation post Kris did a lot more evaluation on content with 072119. Based on his results the Low-Set recommendation is the same, but we are changing the CMS1 "Max Light" multiplier recommendation to "in the range of four to eight times the measured light in nits." This requires some further explanation.
> 
> With the CMS1 Max Light at four times the measured light, images are brighter than at an eight times multiple. In contrast the eight times multiple, while darker, preserves more color saturation in bright objects. This can improve the detail in bright saturated colors. So this means user preference comes into play choosing to either maximize brightness, or maximize bright color saturation, or balance these two objectives. I have increased our Demo Theater multiple to about five after doing more evaluation, and I think Kris is liking the Max Light multiple of around eight.


One thing I noticed (and one reason I didn't stick at my old 600-700 setting with the newer releases once I understood the ratio setting and the trick of getting the low effective max indication on screen with DTM off ) was that I didn't think Ratio in low had enough range. At 600 nit max light you have to set ratio all the way up to 31 to get effective display max down to 153 nits, and driving any control to max usually raises concern unless you fully understand the implementation behind it.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> One thing I noticed (and one reason I didn't stick at my old 600-700 setting with the newer releases once I understood the ratio setting and the trick of getting the low effective max indication on screen with DTM off ) was that I didn't think Ratio in low had enough range. At 600 nit max light you have to set ratio all the way up to 31 to get effective display max down to 153 nits, and driving any control to max usually raises concern unless you fully understand the implementation behind it.


153 is really low, I'm surprised that you would go that low with any content. It may look good with something extremely dark (I have a great test scene for this in The Revenant) but it would be at the expense of other content looking too bright. I wouldn't recommend going under 200 unless you have a REALLY dim projector (something with peak light output less than 15fL of so). There is never going to be a perfect solution unless you had per frame data to work with, so it is finding the best overall compromise so you don't find yourself fiddling with it constantly. Dynamic systems will ALWAYS have to have some issues, it is the nature of the beast. It is just finding the settings that provide you with the best results for your tastes and the least amount of artifacts that annoy you.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> 153 is really low, I'm surprised that you would go that low with any content. It may look good with something extremely dark (I have a great test scene for this in The Revenant) but it would be at the expense of other content looking too bright. I wouldn't recommend going under 200 unless you have a REALLY dim projector (something with peak light output less than 15fL of so). There is never going to be a perfect solution unless you had per frame data to work with, so it is finding the best overall compromise so you don't find yourself fiddling with it constantly. Dynamic systems will ALWAYS have to have some issues, it is the nature of the beast. It is just finding the settings that provide you with the best results for your tastes and the least amount of artifacts that annoy you.


I'm still playing, it is a brave new world with the latest updates to DTM. 
My understanding of the low ratio giving something like 153 would be that for content that measured as having an SDRish "DTM max CLL" this ratio would result in most of that content being mapped into the 75 nits like it were a standard projection setup with approx half the luminance of an SDR reference monitor (which seems to be the norm for SDR projection), so it would be most like the SDR image I like. Maybe that is missing the point of HDR a bit, though I still remain to be convinced HDR isn't just something pointless we have to deal with in projection to get access to 4K and WCG.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm trying all options at the moment and will fiddle more with this in line with your suggestion. In a way I wish there were a little less indirection on the Pro between what is happening with respect to nits levels and the ratios setup / multipliers spread to max light setting, though I can see why we are where we are given the evolution. It is just a little funny now that we really only have two settings recommended for tweaking initially (max light and low ratio) whose parameters it seems could be expressed differently on the UI in terms of real nits.

I really hope that HDR10+ takes off as we could get the benefit of that metadata as an input to Lumagen tone mapping. I've been pleasantly surprised with the quality of the scene detection to date, and it is only getting better, but good data could really bring that little extra, and I disagree quite strongly that dynamic tonemapping should be thought as a reason why DV/HDR10+ aren't necessary (and why I'm quite bitter DV won't open up their data to Lumagen at the moment) 

I know there are some concerns from some that HDR10+ data could be only as good as HDR10 data (ie not very) but I don't think that will be the case seeing as you'd have to go out of your way to add the HDR10+ data, so why bother for it not to be sensible? I understand it is generally just the output of an automatic parser which is great if it gives you that crucial vision into the future of the scene.


----------



## tibia

Kris Deering said:


> In the CMS, if you select output colorspace as SDRP3 and have conversion ON, it is changing 2020 to P3. The Lumagen also offers 2020 conversion to 709, but that is a different selection.


One final question. When I disable DTM during calibration, does that also disable 2020 to P3 conversion? I am hoping DTM and 2020 to P3 gamut conversion controls are independent of each other. I don't think I've seen anything in the new Radiance Owner's Manual about this. Perhaps I should mention it to Jim P. His home/office is just 20 minutes away from me.


----------



## jrp

tibia said:


> One final question. When I disable DTM during calibration, does that also disable 2020 to P3 conversion? I am hoping DTM and 2020 to P3 gamut conversion controls are independent of each other. I don't think I've seen anything in the new Radiance Owner's Manual about this. Perhaps I should mention it to Jim P. His home/office is just 20 minutes away from me.


If you follow our recommended "output HDR in a SDR container" calibration is done with SDR patterns. Tone Mapping is off in this case.

The colorspace conversions are independent of the SDR or HDR and Tone Mapping mode. If the input color space is different than the output and the "Auto Convert" is enabled it will always change the data from the input color format to be correct for the output color format.

NOTE: If you want to use a different output color format and use Auto Convert to change the data you need to know what is going on so you can leave auto convert enabled or disable it as appropriate. Here are two examples:

For SDR source I use CMS0->Colorspace = SDR2020, with Auto Convert. For this I have our JVC RS4500 CMS disabled (but these comments work the same if you have it set to 2020). I can do a profile using SDR patterns with Auto Convert *on* and then create a 1D/3D LUT targeting Rec709 Gamut with Bt.1886 Gamma. This is because while Auto Convert is changing the data to 2020, so I can run the projector in 2020 mode (helps reduce the number of output restarts switching from SDR to HDR content), I want to calibrate to Rec709. This 1D/3D LUT is loaded into CMS0. Auto Convert must be on for watching content.

If I set HDR color mode as CMS1->Colorspace = SDRP3, since in this case I want to output and calibrate to P3 for a projector (or TV) with a Gamut around P3, when I do the profile, I must turn Auto Convert *off*. With Auto Convert off, I do a profile with SDR patterns and then create a 1D/3D LUT targeting P3 (D65) and Gamma = 2.4. This 1D/3D LUT is loaded into CMS1. Auto Convert must be on for watching content.


----------



## KarlKlammer

It seems to me that HDSat is no longer working as it was in previous versions. It is less effective in the attached screenshot from Mad Max or completely uneffective when I watch the spear scene in Batman vs. Superman.


----------



## Sandel

Sandel said:


> I'm using a Paladin DCR for my JVC RS4500 on a 21:9 Stewart screen, so all the 16:9 content has black vertical bars left and right of the screen.
> Now I wonder how to get different maskings within the Lumagen settings for 16:9 and 21:9 separately as I need to mask the 16:9 picture differently than my 21:9 picture.
> Do I need to use different memory settings, or what's the best way here?
> 
> Thanks!



Anybody?


----------



## Eventidal

Sandel said:


> Anybody?


You are on the right track! Use different styles (masking option/shrinking options) and address these to the different memory slots a/b/c/d via the output setup.


----------



## jrp

KarlKlammer said:


> It seems to me that HDSat is no longer working as it was in previous versions. It is less effective in the attached screenshot from Mad Max or completely uneffective when I watch the spear scene in Batman vs. Superman.


For the scene shown you need to raise DSat to the 12 to 15 range for it to affect the Cyan in the source image. This has always been the case. I have not looked at Batman vs. Superman, but DSat only affects the brightest of objects in high MaxCLL movies. 

We are discussing ways to enhance this feature for those who like it, but it is not on the priority list.


----------



## Eventidal

Jim,

could you make the "left" key, which usually accesses the DTM menu, work for SDR as well? So that gamma and black levels would be always easily accessible via the same route?


----------



## KarlKlammer

jrp said:


> I have not looked at Batman vs. Superman, but DSat only affects the brightest of objects in high MaxCLL movies.


I watched the scene again several times and even switched back to older FW versions. This is really strange. Sometimes I see the spear like in the first screenshot. But more often I get to see it like the second screenshot, completely green without structure and even the shape is not visible because of the halo. 

DTM off always looks like the first screenshot.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I watched the scene again several times and even switched back to older FW versions. This is really strange. Sometimes I see the spear like in the first screenshot. But more often I get to see it like the second screenshot, completely green without structure and even the shape is not visible because of the halo.
> 
> DTM off always looks like the first screenshot.


If you are skipping / seeking to the scene you could be having different scene conditions so maybe or not detecting scene at the point you skip to. One example of this is to try and go backwards and forwards through the patch sequences on R Masciola's test disc for HDR. You can see some interesting effects as the Lumagen locks onto a different detected maxCLL with the luminance of the patches looping.

You really need to make sure you are skipping to a time well before the scene you are evaluating.


----------



## KarlKlammer

I didn't skip directly to that scene and gave the Radiance about 10 seconds before it.


Edit:
It seems to have something to do with the nVidia Shield. Even starting playback 3 minutes before the scene resulted in the second screenshot.
Then I changed the player and and the scene always resulted in the first screenshot. 
There are too many variables in this game.


----------



## Sandel

Eventidal said:


> You are on the right track! Use different styles (masking option/shrinking options) and address these to the different memory slots a/b/c/d via the output setup.


Cool, thanks! Just wanted to make sure I'm doing the right thing...


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> I didn't skip directly to that scene and gave the Radiance about 10 seconds before it.
> 
> 
> Edit:
> It seems to have something to do with the nVidia Shield. Even starting playback 3 minutes before the scene resulted in the second screenshot.
> Then I changed the player and and the scene always resulted in the first screenshot.
> There are too many variables in this game./forum/images/smilies/confused.gif


I don’t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.


I thought that DLev 8 would ignore the metadata.


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> I donâ€™️t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesnâ€™️t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that DLev 8 would ignore the metadata.
Click to expand...

I don’t think there are any that completely ignore but I could be wrong.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t think there are any that completely ignore but I could be wrong.


I also thought this from previous postings on the subject from @jrp, but the most recent training material from @jrp now says:



> ▪ A value of 8 does not use any of the static MaxCLL data


I don't know if the above is a simplification of the behaviour for reasons of brevity in the slide, or a genuine change in behaviour.


----------



## Eventidal

Sandel said:


> Cool, thanks! Just wanted to make sure I'm doing the right thing...


I have styles for 2.35 with DCR lens, 2.40 and NLS. Works awesome!


----------



## Ash Sharma

BrolicBeast said:


> I'm wondering if this is just based on evaluating popular test material mentioned on this thread, because my experience is showing superior performance in lighter and dark scenes with the new firmware.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


We watched RocketMan on K Escape last night - I believe it will be a good test of DTM, let us know if you watch it.

On a separate note - my Lumagen is Ordered and Adam Peltz will be here to install it last week of August. 
I am curious to see how it works as I have been holding out on the Lumagen even after all the harassment from Steve B....


----------



## Yoxxy

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.


The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I also thought this from previous postings on the subject from @jrp, but the most recent training material from @jrp now says:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if the above is a simplification of the behaviour for reasons of brevity in the slide, or a genuine change in behaviour.


That is probably correct, I didn't remember off the top of my head. So not sure what would be causing your issue.


----------



## Roland Janus

Yoxxy said:


> The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.


I noticed that too, also weird results like HDR709
How can they break something working in dev mode once it's in prod.


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> I didn't skip directly to that scene and gave the Radiance about 10 seconds before it.
> 
> 
> Edit:
> It seems to have something to do with the nVidia Shield. Even starting playback 3 minutes before the scene resulted in the second screenshot.
> Then I changed the player and and the scene always resulted in the first screenshot.
> There are too many variables in this game.


Indeed. Do you have the same content available to you via disc playback? I would see if you get the same results from a disc as the Shield. But it sounds like the Shield indeed still has issues to work out.


----------



## audioguy

Yoxxy said:


> The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.


That update to 8.0 broke mine as well. In addition to both colorimetry and resolution not working, it also screwed up the image placement on my screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Based upon some recommendations by Craig Rounds who is investigating the Zappiti and has seen it in action (and was quite impressed with it), that may be my next device to play my ripped files. That would be number 5 (Apple TV, Dune, Zidoo and Shield). At least it has an option to send source direct material to my Lumagen processor. We shall see and I won't buy one until Craig checks it out thoroughly.


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> We watched RocketMan on K Escape last night - I believe it will be a good test of DTM, let us know if you watch it.
> 
> On a separate note - my Lumagen is Ordered and Adam Peltz will be here to install it last week of August.
> I am curious to see how it works as *I have been holding out on the Lumagen even after all the harassment from Steve B...*.


Steve B has been holding out on getting a Panamorph DCR lens despite being harassed, so what goes around comes around.


----------



## Yoxxy

Roland Janus said:


> I noticed that too, also weird results like HDR709
> How can they break something working in dev mode once it's in prod.


Owning shields for the last three years it always seems to work this way. Every milestone update destroys something.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> That update to 8.0 broke mine as well. In addition to both colorimetry and resolution not working, it also screwed up the image placement on my screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Based upon some recommendations by Craig Rounds who is investigating the Zappiti and has seen it in action (and was quite impressed with it), that may be my next device to play my ripped files. That would be number 5 (Apple TV, Dune, Zidoo and Shield). At least it has an option to send source direct material to my Lumagen processor. We shall see and I won't buy one until Craig checks it out thoroughly.


I'm working on a review of the Zappiti for Sound and Vision now. So look for that at some point to help.


----------



## Praetorpwj

audioguy said:


> Yoxxy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> That update to 8.0 broke mine as well. In addition to both colorimetry and resolution not working, it also screwed up the image placement on my screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Based upon some recommendations by Craig Rounds who is investigating the Zappiti and has seen it in action (and was quite impressed with it), that may be my next device to play my ripped files. That would be number 5 (Apple TV, Dune, Zidoo and Shield). At least it has an option to send source direct material to my Lumagen processor. We shall see and I won't buy one until Craig checks it out thoroughly.
Click to expand...

I use a Zappiti 4K HDR and it generally works well with the Lumagen. Does seem to increase handshake time but I’m working with an older JVC.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> I'm working on a review of the Zappiti for Sound and Vision now. So look for that at some point to help.


That's really great news. Any estimated time frame for publication? 

Craig Rounds has a couple of models of the Zappiti on the way to him so he can check them out. My needs are pretty simple: Don't screw up the color; don't diddle with the resolution; make the UI easy to modify/customize; and give me direct access to the multiple movie folders I have (e.g. 4K; BluRay; Concert Videos; Next Up - New Movies; Next Up - Old Movies; etc). 

Meeting those objectives is, apparently, more difficult than I can comprehend because none of the 4 units I have tried were able to achieve all of those objectives!


----------



## audioguy

Praetorpwj said:


> I use a Zappiti 4K HDR and it generally works well with the Lumagen. Does seem to increase handshake time but I’m working with an older JVC.


HDMI Gremlins. And remember: HDMI stands for *H*ighly *D*emonic *M*edia *I*nterface


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> That's really great news. Any estimated time frame for publication?
> 
> Craig Rounds has a couple of models of the Zappiti on the way to him so he can check them out. My needs are pretty simple: Don't screw up the color; don't diddle with the resolution; make the UI easy to modify/customize; and give me direct access to the multiple movie folders I have (e.g. 4K; BluRay; Concert Videos; Next Up - New Movies; Next Up - Old Movies; etc).
> 
> Meeting those objectives is, apparently, more difficult than I can comprehend because none of the 4 units I have tried were able to achieve all of those objectives!


In the early stages of the review as I am doing a Zappiti system (4K HDR pro, mini unit and NAS). So probably won't be published until late September/early October with the other things I'm working on.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Kris Deering said:


> Indeed. Do you have the same content available to you via disc playback? I would see if you get the same results from a disc as the Shield. But it sounds like the Shield indeed still has issues to work out.


I just watched the scenes from Batman V Superman and Mad Max with my Samsung K8500 (disc) and vero4k (file). Both did not show the issues. So that means that the Shield cannot be trusted at the moment.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> In the early stages of the review as I am doing a Zappiti system (4K HDR pro, mini unit and NAS). So probably won't be published until late September/early October with the other things I'm working on.


Someone beat you to the punch in reviewing the Zappiti!

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-player/mediaserver/zappiti-one-4k-hdr-media-player-review/


----------



## Kris Deering

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Someone beat you to the punch in reviewing the Zappiti!
> 
> https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-player/mediaserver/zappiti-one-4k-hdr-media-player-review/


Different unit. I am doing the pro higher-end model. Plus I'm reviewing as a system with one of their mini-players and the NAS ripper. But any comments from that review for interface should be the same since it is universal across the line. Video performance may be slightly different though.

Actually, that review is from 2017, so they may have done quite a few updates to their interface and hardware since then.


----------



## audioguy

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Someone beat you to the punch in reviewing the Zappiti!
> 
> https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-player/mediaserver/zappiti-one-4k-hdr-media-player-review/


There are a number of reviews of these products. But I will trust the word of someone who is in the video calibration business (Kris Deering, Craig Rounds, etc) who I am comfortable will dig much deeper than was done in the attached review. It is reviews like the attached that got me to buy the units I have bought. 

Having owned 4 other devices, I want the next one to be THE one, so I will wait for Kris or Craig's evaluation prior to buying.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Someone beat you to the punch in reviewing the Zappiti!
> 
> https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-player/mediaserver/zappiti-one-4k-hdr-media-player-review/





Kris Deering said:


> Different unit. I am doing the pro higher-end model. Plus I'm reviewing as a system with one of their mini-players and the NAS ripper. But any comments from that review for interface should be the same since it is universal across the line. Video performance may be slightly different though.
> 
> Actually, that review is from 2017, so they may have done quite a few updates to their interface and hardware since then.





audioguy said:


> There are a number of reviews of these products. But I will trust the word of someone who is in the video calibration business (Kris Deering, Craig Rounds, etc) who I am comfortable will dig much deeper than was done in the attached review. It is reviews like the attached that got me to buy the units I have bought.
> 
> Having owned 4 other devices, I want the next one to be THE one, so I will wait for Kris or Craig's evaluation prior to buying.


I fully agree!


----------



## audioguy

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I fully agree!


Curious. Given you have (I think) a Kaleidescape System, what would be your interest in such a device? Streaming from Netflix, Amazon, etc?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

audioguy said:


> Curious. Given you have (I think) a Kaleidescape System, what would be your interest in such a device? Streaming from Netflix, Amazon, etc?


I'm really not interested. But I read about your interest! HA!


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> That's really great news. Any estimated time frame for publication?
> 
> 
> 
> Craig Rounds has a couple of models of the Zappiti on the way to him so he can check them out. My needs are pretty simple: Don't screw up the color; don't diddle with the resolution; make the UI easy to modify/customize; and give me direct access to the multiple movie folders I have (e.g. 4K; BluRay; Concert Videos; Next Up - New Movies; Next Up - Old Movies; etc).
> 
> 
> 
> Meeting those objectives is, apparently, more difficult than I can comprehend because none of the 4 units I have tried were able to achieve all of those objectives!




It sounds to me what you are describing is covered (sans UI mods) by the Network function of my precious OPPO UDP-203.

Granted, it is just a basic folder navigator with no artwork, but that is what I have Plex and other streaming devices for.

The damn thing just works, IMHO. Too bad they don’t make them any longer.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

giomania said:


> It sounds to me what you are describing is covered (sans UI mods) by the Network function of my precious OPPO UDP-203.
> 
> Granted, it is just a basic folder navigator with no artwork, but that is what I have Plex and other streaming devices for.
> 
> The damn thing just works, IMHO. Too bad they don’t make them any longer.
> 
> Mark


I have an Oppo 203. I have used it to playing my MKV files. But even calling it "basic" would be a stretch. I am attempting to get as close as possible to when I had a Kaleidescape system that my wife could operate. The UI I was able to get with Plex on the Shield was a close as I would need. BUT, Plex (on the Shield) would not allow me to pass the video (1080P) un-molested. Craig was going to show me how to use Kodi to see if I could get closer, but, unfortunately, I upgraded the firmware and now nothing works!!


----------



## Kris Deering

I use my Oppo for playing MKV no problem except for some reason I can't get subtitles to work. I can even select the different subtitle options using the subtitle button on the Oppo remote but nothing works. Anyone else have this problem or some insight on something I may be missing?


----------



## fatjulio

Kris Deering said:


> I use my Oppo for playing MKV no problem except for some reason I can't get subtitles to work. I can even select the different subtitle options using the subtitle button on the Oppo remote but nothing works. Anyone else have this problem or some insight on something I may be missing?


Have you paused when selecting the subtitles? I've sometimes found that it will only work while the video is still playing, so don't pause, just select the subs.
One thing that sometimes gets me is when the movie/show is 2.35 aspect (I have a constant height setup) and they're being displayed outside the image area.


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> I use my Oppo for playing MKV no problem except for some reason I can't get subtitles to work. I can even select the different subtitle options using the subtitle button on the Oppo remote but nothing works. Anyone else have this problem or some insight on something I may be missing?




I use CloneBD (free) with the Blu-Ray subtitles option, and am able to select and see the subtitles. Forced usually do not work, however. 1st world problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## RickAVManiac

I will received my Zappiti Pro tomorrow.

I will use it with my Radiance Pro, I am no calibrator but will report back my personal findings...

I plan to use there source direct option so everything from dvd to UHD should go untouched to the Radiance. 

Of course my main testing points will be HDR movies pair with the Radiance DTM.

I have own Zappiti in the past so I know my way around there gui. It’s no contest the best jukebox interface on the market, Simple but very complete and rich in features.


----------



## loggeo

Kris Deering said:


> I use my Oppo for playing MKV no problem except for some reason I can't get subtitles to work. I can even select the different subtitle options using the subtitle button on the Oppo remote but nothing works. Anyone else have this problem or some insight on something I may be missing?



While on playback, try pressing the info button after you have chosen the external subtitles. 

Regarding the zappiti pro 4k my understanding is that it does not read metadata correctly (it sends 0 values to the display). At least this was the case the time the following video was released ( I have asked the reviewer).


----------



## Yoxxy

The shield worked just fine with before this update, if you read the forums it will be fixed after another update. I have one in another room that didn't update and it works fine.


----------



## Kris Deering

loggeo said:


> While on playback, try pressing the info button after you have chosen the external subtitles.
> 
> Regarding the zappiti pro 4k my understanding is that it does not read metadata correctly (it sends 0 values to the display). At least this was the case the time the following video was released ( I have asked the reviewer).
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJm3YrkQQBg


I've heard the metadata issue is the same with any of the devices that use the Android system for playback. Does the Shield report identical HDR metadata as playing back the same content from a disc player?


----------



## loggeo

Kris Deering said:


> I've heard the metadata issue is the same with any of the devices that use the Android system for playback. Does the Shield report identical HDR metadata as playing back the same content from a disc player?



I have read zidoo reports metadata correctly. I believe Shield fixed this problem too.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> I have read zidoo reports metadata correctly. I believe Shield fixed this problem too.


I had a Z9S for a while, so much potential but so much annoying about it. Occasionally sending SDR instead of HDR, glitchy playback from network sources, etc. I returned to Amazon.

I've just got an Oppo clone; which though it sucks from a UI perspective, actually seems to, you know, play video properly...! "You only had to do one thing right..." is a phrase that comes to mind with so many of these network players.


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> I had a Z9S for a while, so much potential but so much annoying about it. Occasionally sending SDR instead of HDR, glitchy playback from network sources, etc. I returned to Amazon.
> 
> I've just got an Oppo clone; which though it sucks from a UI perspective, actually seems to, you know, play video properly...! "You only had to do one thing right..." is a phrase that comes to mind with so many of these network players.


Can we hear an Amen! I had the Z9s as well (and the Dune and ATV and Shield). And NONE of them could get it all right. I am (cautiously) hopeful the Zappiti will be the answer, but I will wait until those I trust tell me it is the real deal.


----------



## loggeo

bobof said:


> I had a Z9S for a while, so much potential but so much annoying about it. Occasionally sending SDR instead of HDR, glitchy playback from network sources, etc. I returned to Amazon.
> 
> I've just got an Oppo clone; which though it sucks from a UI perspective, actually seems to, you know, play video properly...! "You only had to do one thing right..." is a phrase that comes to mind with so many of these network players.



Yes I have tested an oppo clone (v.1). Gave it to a friend, he had to return after a couple of weeks (faulty unit).
Thankfully my oppo 203 (custom firmware) is rock solid.


----------



## Kris Deering

loggeo said:


> Yes I have tested an oppo clone (v.1). Gave it to a friend, he had to return after a couple of weeks (faulty unit).
> Thankfully my oppo 203 (custom firmware) is rock solid.


Tried your method of bringing up the info display to see if subtitles will work and it seems to have done the trick. Thanks for the input on that!!


----------



## Wookii

bobof said:


> I had a Z9S for a while, so much potential but so much annoying about it. Occasionally sending SDR instead of HDR, glitchy playback from network sources, etc. I returned to Amazon.
> 
> I've just got an Oppo clone; which though it sucks from a UI perspective, actually seems to, you know, play video properly...! "You only had to do one thing right..." is a phrase that comes to mind with so many of these network players.


Not my experience at all - I’ve had the X9S for some months now and it’s worked largely flawlessly. I came to it rather late after it’s release so the firmware was presumably more mature, but I’ve had no issues with it outputting the correct frame rate, resolution, and colour space. The interface is also good, as is the automated library integration and scraping providing you adopt the necessary file naming conventions.

I’ve had numerous media players of one form or another ever since the TViX boxes some 15 years ago, and the Zidoo has been the best so far for me.


----------



## Wookii

audioguy said:


> Can we hear an Amen! I had the Z9s as well (and the Dune and ATV and Shield). And NONE of them could get it all right. I am (cautiously) hopeful the Zappiti will be the answer, but I will wait until those I trust tell me it is the real deal.


Bear in mind Chuck that the Z9S, Dune and Zappiti all run on essentially the same hardware (the Z9S uses a slight newer and faster SoC) and OS, differing only in the custom software running over the top of them.

Cross your fingers that the next gen ATV will allow bitstream output, and we can all revert to Infuse!


----------



## mikela

Wookii said:


> Not my experience at all - I’ve had the X9S for some months now and it’s worked largely flawlessly. I came to it rather late after it’s release so the firmware was presumably more mature, but I’ve had no issues with it outputting the correct frame rate, resolution, and colour space. The interface is also good, as is the automated library integration and scraping providing you adopt the necessary file naming conventions.
> 
> I’ve had numerous media players of one form or another ever since the TViX boxes some 15 years ago, and the Zidoo has been the best so far for me.


Same here. I have the Z9S on the latest firmware and it just does what it is supposed to do. I use it for 4K movies and blu-ray music. 

I don't use my Oppo at all anymore given Zidoo's much better UI. Having said that, I have no brand loyalty when it comes to media players and will be keeping a close eye on Kris' review.


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> Bear in mind Chuck that the Z9S, Dune and Zappiti all run on essentially the same hardware (the Z9S uses a slight newer and faster SoC) and OS, differing only in the custom software running over the top of them.


Which, apparently, is what makes one better than the other - or not.



> Cross your fingers that the next gen ATV will allow bitstream output, and we can all revert to Infuse!


Amen to that. THAT missing piece is the ONLY shortcoming of that product.


----------



## GeorgeHolland

LJG said:


> I was only referring to the visual quality of the movie not its contents.


I didn't assume nor mean to question want others enjoy as desirable movies. I'm sure I like a number of movies others would find less than compelling and understand many of the comments deal with torture scenes and presentation. As a video hobbyist, I appreciate as much as any the possibilities of HDR and 4K and am excited about the possibilities. Possibly due to the Film Appreciation class my wife is taking I have been exposed to a number of older films the class has required her to watch. I had watched many of them already but even black and white films in my theater have been a treat. Sorry to get off topic and I know there are a handful of recent movies that really test the capabilities of 4K projectors but at the risk of taking this thread even more off topic, here are some of the films I have watched with my wife as she works through her course; and what fun it has been to revisit or see for the first time films that capture my attention from beginning to end and they have little to do with current technology. I did not mean to disparage or judge, we all like what we like.

Paper Moon, Double Indemnity, Philadelphia Story, It’s a Wonderful Life (Extra Credit), Vertigo, Casablanca, 42nd Street, Gold Diggers (One scene covered),
Singing in the Rain, Mr. Smith goes to Washington, His Girl Friday, From Here to Eternity (wasn't crazy about this), The Postman Always rings twice, Bonnie and Clyde, 
The Apartment, On the Waterfront, The Graduate, Guess who is coming to dinner, In the heat of the night.

and some of the first; A trip to the Moon, ,The Great Train Robbery, Muybridge Experiment (Horses with all 4 feet off the ground), Lumiere Brothers (First or early silent films), 
The Dickenson Experiment (First time sound with film)

Again, I am appreciating the Lumagen upgrades and Kris's calibration magic., even for older, less dynamic content and look forward to more.


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Not my experience at all - I’ve had the X9S for some months now and it’s worked largely flawlessly. I came to it rather late after it’s release so the firmware was presumably more mature, but I’ve had no issues with it outputting the correct frame rate, resolution, and colour space. The interface is also good, as is the automated library integration and scraping providing you adopt the necessary file naming conventions.
> 
> I’ve had numerous media players of one form or another ever since the TViX boxes some 15 years ago, and the Zidoo has been the best so far for me.


I was initially impressed with it. Perhaps the X9S chip support is better sorted. The HDR as SDR thing was provably an internal problem (every so often it would decide to output HDR content tagged as REC709, usually after being on for a few days). The glitching issues don't affect Infuse on the same network cable, so it at least wasn't as robust to whatever was happening there.



audioguy said:


> Amen to that. THAT missing piece is the ONLY shortcoming of that product.


ATV also doesn't support the integer 24p and 60p refresh rate outputs (only the fractional 23.976 and 59.94 are supported) or 3D, both of which would be nice to have.


----------



## audioguy

GeorgeHolland said:


> Paper Moon, Double Indemnity, Philadelphia Story, It’s a Wonderful Life (Extra Credit), Vertigo, Casablanca, 42nd Street, Gold Diggers (One scene covered),
> Singing in the Rain, Mr. Smith goes to Washington, His Girl Friday, From Here to Eternity (wasn't crazy about this), The Postman Always rings twice, Bonnie and Clyde,
> The Apartment, On the Waterfront, The Graduate, Guess who is coming to dinner, In the heat of the night.
> 
> and some of the first; A trip to the Moon, ,The Great Train Robbery, Muybridge Experiment (Horses with all 4 feet off the ground), Lumiere Brothers (First or early silent films),
> The Dickenson Experiment (First time sound with film)


What a great list of movies. I have seen many but most certainly not all. And even with a quick glance, none probably use CGI. While there are some good movies released in these recent years, the number with just great stories and acting (few, if any, special effects) pales in comparison to the above. 

The class your wife is taking sounds fabulous!


----------



## galaxyluv

Radiance Pro 4242-18GHz
I am using a Radiance Pro 4242-18GHz.

When I check on the Info Screen, Page 2, The Output Device Capabilities Reads as "18G:N". Does anyone have any idea why it is not showing 18G:Y, because I have the 18GHz Input and Output cards installed.


----------



## giomania

Is the output set to limit to 9 GHz? This is option is configured in the “Style”.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## jrp

galaxyluv said:


> Radiance Pro 4242-18GHz
> I am using a Radiance Pro 4242-18GHz.
> 
> When I check on the Info Screen, Page 2, The Output Device Capabilities Reads as "18G:N". Does anyone have any idea why it is not showing 18G:Y, because I have the 18GHz Input and Output cards installed.


The information on Info Pg 2 is what the downstream device is reporting in its EDID and not what your Pro is capable of.

You can see what you have installed looking at the lower left of Info Pg 4. The colored section says "18G:" the letters after this and before the slash represent one input card each, the letter(s) after the slash represent one output card each. There are two inputs per input card and two outputs per output card. The letter says "Y" if the card is a 18 GHz card, a "N" says it is not a 18 GHz card (and so a 9 GHz card), and a "-" means no card is installed.

As an example for a 4242 with two 18 GHz inputs (1&2), two 9 GHz inputs(3&4), and a 18 GHz output card, will show as "18G: YN/Y,m" where the "m" show as a 0 if the old 18 GHz output microcode is loaded and a 1 if the new 18 GHz output microcode is loaded.


----------



## FenceMan

jrp said:


> If you follow our recommended "output HDR in a SDR container" calibration is done with SDR patterns. Tone Mapping is off in this case.
> 
> The colorspace conversions are independent of the SDR or HDR and Tone Mapping mode. If the input color space is different than the output and the "Auto Convert" is enabled it will always change the data from the input color format to be correct for the output color format.
> 
> NOTE: If you want to use a different output color format and use Auto Convert to change the data you need to know what is going on so you can leave auto convert enabled or disable it as appropriate. Here are two examples:
> 
> For SDR source I use CMS0->Colorspace = SDR2020, with Auto Convert. For this I have our JVC RS4500 CMS disabled (but these comments work the same if you have it set to 2020). I can do a profile using SDR patterns with Auto Convert *on* and then create a 1D/3D LUT targeting Rec709 Gamut with Bt.1886 Gamma. This is because while Auto Convert is changing the data to 2020, so I can run the projector in 2020 mode (helps reduce the number of output restarts switching from SDR to HDR content), I want to calibrate to Rec709. This 1D/3D LUT is loaded into CMS0. Auto Convert must be on for watching content.
> 
> If I set HDR color mode as CMS1->Colorspace = SDRP3, since in this case I want to output and calibrate to P3 for a projector (or TV) with a Gamut around P3, when I do the profile, I must turn Auto Convert *off*. With Auto Convert off, I do a profile with SDR patterns and then create a 1D/3D LUT targeting P3 (D65) and Gamma = 2.4. This 1D/3D LUT is loaded into CMS1. Auto Convert must be on for watching content.


This is a little confusing and I would like to confirm (I have been using Calman with a 2144 for years but the Pro is a bit more complicated) -

For SDR content I want to output SDR 709 (I manually switch my RS2000 from 709 to 2020) so you are saying for this basically just do the same as I have always done with 2144 calibrate CMS0 to Rec709 BT1886 gamma correct?

For HDR content I want to output DTM SDR 2020 so for this one I want (with auto convert off) to calibrate CMS1 to P3 colorspace and Power Gamma 2.4 and then once I turn auto convert back on it will use this P3 Lut to make sure 2020 is correct? Once this is complete I can use the RS2000 in 2020 mode with the color filter engaged?

And then for my TV I can do both over again but use say CMS2 and 3 to have a separate SDR and HDR calibration for the TV? The way I did it with 2144 is set projector to A and TV to B for separate calibrations, sound about right?


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering calibrated my Lumagen / RS4500 yesterday. Kris's mastery of the Lumagen and dynamic tone mapping is impressive, and the picture looks amazing. Now to watch a bunch of movies. Thank you Kris !


----------



## A7mad78

Craig Peer said:


> Kris Deering calibrated my Lumagen / RS4500 yesterday. Kris's mastery of the Lumagen and dynamic tone mapping is impressive, and the picture looks amazing. Now to watch a bunch of movies. Thank you Kris !




Looking for some great pic in twitter 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Kris Deering calibrated my Lumagen / RS4500 yesterday. Kris's mastery of the Lumagen and dynamic tone mapping is impressive, and the picture looks amazing. Now to watch a bunch of movies. Thank you Kris !



Craig any specific Lumagen ATM tweaks other RS4500 guys might find useful? I'll be watching some stuff tonight, it's been awhile.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Just spotted another update: 

Beta 080919- Posted 081619 Fix for a DTM color flash issue that occurred for a few seconds on an HDR mode change. Further improvements to Dynamic Tone Mapping. 

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


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## Mike_WI

Kelvin1965S said:


> Just spotted another update:
> 
> Beta 080919- Posted 081619 Fix for a DTM color flash issue that occurred for a few seconds on an HDR mode change. Further improvements to Dynamic Tone Mapping.
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


I like the new inclusion of the "posted on" date.


----------



## bobof

Kelvin1965S said:


> Just spotted another update:
> 
> Beta 080919- Posted 081619 Fix for a DTM color flash issue that occurred for a few seconds on an HDR mode change. Further improvements to Dynamic Tone Mapping.
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


Awesome, will get this loaded this evening


----------



## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> Craig any specific Lumagen ATM tweaks other RS4500 guys might find useful? I'll be watching some stuff tonight, it's been awhile.


Hard to say since I only have one movie under my belt. Basically I just had a full system re-calibration, so you could say everything got tweaked !  One thing I did not have setup that Kris did to the Lumagen is the auto aspect detection - which is very cool !


----------



## Kris Deering

This new update is a substantial revision to the dynamic tone mapping and how it is done. Most likely will require most to adjust the settings in their processor to get the best results. I’ll be reaching out to my clients this week and would suggest those that have had theirs setup professionally do the same.


----------



## bobof

Noticed it has AA detecting 2.4 for AR > 2.4, which is nice. So now La La Land (2.55:1) triggers 2.4 instead of not detecting anything.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> Hard to say since I only have one movie under my belt. Basically I just had a full system re-calibration, so you could say everything got tweaked !  One thing I did not have setup that Kris did to the Lumagen is the auto aspect detection - which is very cool !


Craig,
How does this work if you don't want to use the correct AR? I watched Shape Of Water using bt DCR in 2:40 and loved it.
Also, I would like to hit 16:9 to see the MENU say in a K Movie ot Apple TV?? Or my movies area in the VUDU app.
My install of Lumagen is on 26th - I am sure Adam will be able to answer all these questions - but I am just wondering.
Thanks,
Ash


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> Craig,
> How does this work if you don't want to use the correct AR? I watched Shape Of Water using bt DCR in 2:40 and loved it.
> Also, I would like to hit 16:9 to see the MENU say in a K Movie ot Apple TV?? Or my movies area in the VUDU app.
> My install of Lumagen is on 26th - I am sure Adam will be able to answer all these questions - but I am just wondering.
> Thanks,
> Ash


Not sure since I have two screens and always watch in the native aspect ratio. But that does bring up a question - i'm not sure what happens with those changing aspect ratio movies. I'll have to throw one on and see.


----------



## Kris Deering

They change aspect ratio


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> They change aspect ratio


Now that I think about it - in 2.40:1 mode with the DCR lens, it shouldn't make any difference. And on a 16:9 screen - watching Dunkirk ( with the Lumagen set to 16:9 mode ) it should not change either.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Ash Sharma said:


> Craig,
> 
> How does this work if you don't want to use the correct AR? I watched Shape Of Water using bt DCR in 2:40 and loved it.
> 
> Also, I would like to hit 16:9 to see the MENU say in a K Movie ot Apple TV?? Or my movies area in the VUDU app.
> 
> My install of Lumagen is on 26th - I am sure Adam will be able to answer all these questions - but I am just wondering.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ash


Ash, I'm covering this in a YouTube video...already shot. Just need to edit the content. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Hard to say since I only have one movie under my belt. Basically I just had a full system re-calibration, so you could say everything got tweaked !  One thing I did not have setup that Kris did to the Lumagen is the auto aspect detection - which is very cool !



Thanks Craig, understood. I was probably more asking on the side of whether there were any specific settings altered in the Lumagen for use with DTM that might translate as a benefit to other 4500 owners. Auto aspect is indeed very cool. I've got it permanently engaged and it works a treat .


----------



## Ash Sharma

BrolicBeast said:


> Ash, I'm covering this in a YouTube video...already shot. Just need to edit the content.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Also very interested in your Q Sys Core Modes


----------



## BrolicBeast

Ash Sharma said:


> Also very interested in your Q Sys Core Modes


Love that rack! Man, the Qsys might need to be on a separate video... covered a lot of ground on the video side. YouTuber viewers' attention spans are not what they used to be.

Here's my Lumagen atop The Qsys core and DCA stack! 










But hey, check this video out for my early Qsys implementation...my modes have certainly changed since then. Learned tons about eq and some of the rules thereof since then:






Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> Thanks Craig, understood. I was probably more asking on the side of whether there were any specific settings altered in the Lumagen for use with DTM that might translate as a benefit to other 4500 owners. Auto aspect is indeed very cool. I've got it permanently engaged and it works a treat .




Kris changed pretty much all my settings. But it would be hard to say what would work for someone else - it’s all custom situation specific. Looks great too. I’ll elaborate more as I watch stuff over the next week or two.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Kris changed pretty much all my settings. But it would be hard to say what would work for someone else - it’s all custom situation specific. Looks great too. I’ll elaborate more as I watch stuff over the next week or two.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah completely understand Craig, there would be a lot going on in the Lumagen settings across the board with Kris' full calibration of your set up. If I can hone down my question right to what I was getting at really specifically perhaps. What I was interested in was whether say if you were to compare what Jim himself says about the evolution of the default DTM settings and honing these settings slightly out of the box and noting the adjustments to for their house 4500 (matched up to their screen size and with DCR lens of course). If we compared that to what Kris did with right key DTM settings on yours (of course paying note to your specific screen size) was there that much difference to say Jim's 4500 or say mine?. Given Kris is contributing a lot himself to Jim and helping further refine the DTM software, that's kind of why I'm curious to know if much stands out in the actual DTM settings menu on yours now he's done the calibration (that isn't so much screen size dependent say). Hope that makes sense .


I spent some time with the latest firmware today and thought several samples I looked at were excellent. Solo was noticeably improved in the dark scenes.


----------



## Kris Deering

Not to sound mean or rude but I’ve asked my clients not to share settings that I’ve done in their setups with others. This is now how I make my living and the level of knowledge I have with the Lumagen and a lot of other things is based on years of work and testing. The fact that most of the defaults in the Lumagen and a lot of the changes you see are based on my testing and feedback with Lumagen speaks volumes to this.

I’m happy to work with any members here on their Lumagen and they can reach out via PM or my website. I’d prefer if the people that paid for my services to get the most from their setup would simply refer those that ask to me. This ensures that others get the best setup for their own home theater and my work and living isn’t undermined. Hope everyone understands.


----------



## audioguy

Interesting.

Lumagen must have changed the enclosure size sometime during the time this product has been on the market. The height of yours is taller than mine and those on his website. Given it is a 4444 with more inputs and outputs than mine would certainly explain the difference, however.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Lumagen must have changed the enclosure size sometime during the time this product has been on the market. The height of yours is taller than mine and those on his website. Given it is a 4444 with more inputs and outputs than mine would certainly explain the difference, however.


The original 44xx units were 2U. Interestingly you won't usually really gain any rack height from the change to 1U height because if I recall the 2U intake and exhaust are both on the rear - so it doesn't have as much need for space above and below. The 1U intake and exhaust are bottom and top of the unit I think (at least they are on my 4242), meaning you really need at least 1/2U if not more of spacing top / bottom (at least in the area around the vents).

You can probably squeeze the 1U a bit if you're careful about what you put under it when designing your rack (eg a shelf to take some non-full width components could have a cable TV box offset from the intake)

Edit: Not sure about the 2U observations above - I think the 2U Pro might have the intake on the bottom still...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> Not to sound mean or rude but I’ve asked my clients not to share settings that I’ve done in their setups with others. This is now how I make my living and the level of knowledge I have with the Lumagen and a lot of other things is based on years of work and testing. The fact that most of the defaults in the Lumagen and a lot of the changes you see are based on my testing and feedback with Lumagen speaks volumes to this.
> 
> I’m happy to work with any members here on their Lumagen and they can reach out via PM or my website. I’d prefer if the people that paid for my services to get the most from their setup would simply refer those that ask to me. This ensures that others get the best setup for their own home theater and my work and living isn’t undermined. Hope everyone understands.


Kris, you are not being mean or rude. You put a lot of work into this and are providing a great service to your clients. Not all calibrators do this by any means, more one and done!


----------



## Ash Sharma

BrolicBeast said:


> Love that rack!
> 
> Here's my Lumagen atop The Qsys core and DCA stack!
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Beautiful Rack - You Too..
And Amazing Video - Cant wait for the next one to be released - thanks for sharing your knowledge to all in the forum.
I will post pictures of my Rack once my Lumagen is Installed.
And will send you PM on the Q Sys to keep this thread in line with Lumagen.


----------



## bobof

If using auto aspect I find it best to have the Enable "Sticky Aspect Override" option enabled.. This means if you find yourself watching something with changing aspects you can quickly make it stop checking the auto aspect until you next change inputs or memory (I think maybe input refresh rate changes might also re-enable aspect detection).
Depending on your exact screen setup you might also need to enable digital masking of top and bottom regions for input aspects.

With the above, if you are watching an AR changing movie and don't realise it will change AR. If it does that then you just press what aspect you want to watch the movie in on the Lumagen remote and it will lock to that aspect until one of the above mentioned changes happens.


----------



## audioguy

Auto Aspect sounds like an interesting feature. But I am having trouble understanding how I, in my situation, might benefit from it.

I am using Control4 in my theater, so when I select, for example, to watch Dish, C4 closes the screen masks and tells the Lumagen to switch to 16x9 *OR* I might experiment and see what NLS does (We use Dish primarily for regular TV and sports (golf and college football). When I choose to watch a movie, it automatically opens the masks and switches to 2:35. And yes, on occasion, if the movie is 16x9, I need to tell it to switch back to 16x9 *OR* I will try NLS. When I watch concert videos, I can tell my Alexa to change to 16x9 and the masks close and again it changes to 16x9. *OR* I might try NLS. 

So that I might experiment, how/where does the Lumagen tell me what the proper aspect ratio is?


----------



## mikela

audioguy said:


> So that I might experiment, how/where does the Lumagen tell me what the proper aspect ratio is?


Hit the OK button 3 times...it displays on the 3rd information screen.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Lumagen must have changed the enclosure size sometime during the time this product has been on the market. The height of yours is taller than mine and those on his website. Given it is a 4444 with more inputs and outputs than mine would certainly explain the difference, however.


The early Radiance Pro 444X units were housed in a 2U case. The Radiance Pro 424X was designed from the beginning to be in a 1U case. Then for manufacturing reasons we switched to a 1U case for the 444X units.


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> Not to sound mean or rude but I’ve asked my clients not to share settings that I’ve done in their setups with others. This is now how I make my living and the level of knowledge I have with the Lumagen and a lot of other things is based on years of work and testing. The fact that most of the defaults in the Lumagen and a lot of the changes you see are based on my testing and feedback with Lumagen speaks volumes to this.
> 
> I’m happy to work with any members here on their Lumagen and they can reach out via PM or my website. I’d prefer if the people that paid for my services to get the most from their setup would simply refer those that ask to me. This ensures that others get the best setup for their own home theater and my work and living isn’t undermined. Hope everyone understands.


Kris has been instrumental in providing feedback for our development of the Radiance Pro from the early stages. Even more so for Static and Dynamic Tone Mapping. I am sure part of this is he wants his own theater to have the best imagery possible using his Radiance Pro, but it goes well beyond this. His "product reviewer" mindset means he is constantly finding and providing us with feedback on image quality and scenes for us to look at.

DTM is a long term process of evaluating as much material as possible after *every* proposed DTM change. I cannot overstate how important Kris' feedback is for this process, nor how accurate his feedback is in helping us improve the RadiancePro for all our customers - even me. Kris recently convinced me to raise my "CMS1 Max Light" to balance a bit more for Chroma versus Luma.

I think Kris has every right to ask, and even expect, his customers, to hold the knowledge he imparts to them on Radiance Pro setup and calibration as confidential This includes optimal settings for the Radiance Pro but also internal settings projectors and TVs. All Radiance Pro owners benefit from the STM and DTM enhancements Kris has influenced. Kris is available to help with taking performance to an even higher level. If you can't get him on location, even hiring him for a phone consultation can help you optimize your theater.

Thanks for your support of Lumagen. Kris and others who help with our evaluation and development, such as Jon Thompson and Craig Rounds, and the many owners who have provided feedback and sent us movie timestamps for scenes for us to evaluate, all help provide the Radiance Pro community with the best possible image quality.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Auto Aspect sounds like an interesting feature. But I am having trouble understanding how I, in my situation, might benefit from it.
> 
> I am using Control4 in my theater, so when I select, for example, to watch Dish, C4 closes the screen masks and tells the Lumagen to switch to 16x9 *OR* I might experiment and see what NLS does (We use Dish primarily for regular TV and sports (golf and college football). When I choose to watch a movie, it automatically opens the masks and switches to 2:35. And yes, on occasion, if the movie is 16x9, I need to tell it to switch back to 16x9 *OR* I will try NLS. When I watch concert videos, I can tell my Alexa to change to 16x9 and the masks close and again it changes to 16x9. *OR* I might try NLS.
> 
> So that I might experiment, how/where does the Lumagen tell me what the proper aspect ratio is?


What is the movie source?

The benefit AA would give you would be that in your movie mode (why limit it to that to be honest, I use it for everything) it would automatically close the masks and switch aspect ratios for you where the content was detected as 16:9 (in fact, it could automatically set the correct masking for 16:9, 1.85:1, 2:1, 2.2:1, 2.35:1 and 2.40:1, assuming you can set varying mask positions in your mask control). You could still choose to override with NLS if you want, though that might need some extra work with your control system (I'm not sure I'd bother, but then I've never seen the appeal of NLS).

I find it really comes into its own with the high quality stuff coming over the streaming services, where you frequently switch from 16:9 menus to content in a variety of ratios. The masking always being correct without any user interaction I just find adds so much to the presentation, it really takes things to the next level (though it has made me really intolerant of incorrect masking). For me it is now one of my favourite Lumagen features.


----------



## audioguy

mikela said:


> Hit the OK button 3 times...it displays on the 3rd information screen.


I worded the question not properly. I meant to ask how it feeds the correct signal to control4 or directly to my masking system.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> I worded the question not properly. I meant to ask how it feeds the correct signal to control4 or directly to my masking system.


There is an option in the menus to enable output from the serial interface on the Pro anytime an input change happens, including aspect ratio changes in the source material. So the Lumagen effectively shouts out "Aspect ratio of content is now 16:9!" to anyone who knows how to listen.

Your integrator (or you, if you are the integrator!) programs the control system to watch the Lumagen serial output for the indication of the aspect ratio, and then sets up the appropriate "glue logic" in the control system to tell your screen masks to do the right thing (along with anything else you might have that needs to happen, such as projector memory changing, sliding in an anamorphic lens, drawing curtains, moving seat positions, changing audio EQ settings or switching speakers, etc!)


----------



## audioguy

I just installed the newest firmware update and Craig Rounds "helped me" change all of the necessary parameters. "Helped me" in this case means he told me which buttons on the remote to hit and which numbers to insert as necessary. [And I couldn't help but think how nice an IP interface would be so that he (or other qualified calibrators) could do that all remotely] 

Initial impressions: Excellent.

I used Shazam! as my first (and only) test case. The early part of the movie that takes place at night in a car and then in a cave are both dark - the car with no light source as part of the scene and the cave with various light sources. Very much improved. Very much.

What I have concluded, as an aside, is that while switching DTM on and off is fun, (and in this update, "on" seems "brighter" than "off"), the real test is just watching a movie and enjoying the spectacular image that the Lumagen and the associated projector can display. Incredible.


----------



## bobof

@jrp - if there is hint as to what areas are likely to need addressing in the settings after this update it would be great if you could post to point us in the general direction - I guess some of the parameters have changed in their effect?


----------



## bobof

Does anyone know if there is already a Harmony device that has the direct IR codes for the various aspects, instead of having to do alt+235 for 2.4 etc?


----------



## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> Yeah completely understand Craig, there would be a lot going on in the Lumagen settings across the board with Kris' full calibration of your set up. If I can hone down my question right to what I was getting at really specifically perhaps. What I was interested in was whether say if you were to compare what Jim himself says about the evolution of the default DTM settings and honing these settings slightly out of the box and noting the adjustments to for their house 4500 (matched up to their screen size and with DCR lens of course).* If we compared that to what Kris did with right key DTM settings on yours (of course paying note to your specific screen size) was there that much difference to say Jim's 4500 or say mine?.* Given Kris is contributing a lot himself to Jim and helping further refine the DTM software, that's kind of why I'm curious to know if much stands out in the actual DTM settings menu on yours now he's done the calibration (that isn't so much screen size dependent say). Hope that makes sense .
> 
> 
> I spent some time with the latest firmware today and thought several samples I looked at were excellent. Solo was noticeably improved in the dark scenes.


There is one of the problems with home theater in general - unless I visit you or Jim ( Jim would be easier - he's one state away ) and see what the end result looks like, and see how it's set up, we are really only guessing a lot of the time. No two projectors / theater environments will be the same. I'll tell you this - I was used to static tone mapping, and while a lot of stuff looked good, I was clipping a lot of material. Not anymore. The picture now has a clarity and looks even more realistic, and there is no clipping. Partially due to the newest DTM, and of course a lot has to do with Kris's calibration. A lot has changed in the 20 months since Chad B last calibrated my projector!! It's a whole new world with a Lumagen.


----------



## dinamigym

Anyone on the latest firmware and a Sony 5000 have an issue where the Lumagen continuously loses sync/black screen and then regains/image comes back. Happens about every 30s. Have not had this issue until I loaded the latest firmware. So far it happens watching Godzilla:King of the Monsters on Kscape Strato and Netflix HDR content thru ATV4K? Haven't really tested beyond that. Thinking of going back to previous FW. I watched Godzilla straight thru on the previous FW without any such issue?


----------



## Yoxxy

New firmware looks much better in dtm on rs2000. Dark scenes seem much less overexposed to gamma


----------



## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> There is one of the problems with home theater in general - unless I visit you or Jim ( Jim would be easier - he's one state away ) and see what the end result looks like, and see how it's set up, we are really only guessing a lot of the time. No two projectors / theater environments will be the same. I'll tell you this - I was used to static tone mapping, and while a lot of stuff looked good, I was clipping a lot of material. Not anymore. The picture now has a clarity and looks even more realistic, and there is no clipping. Partially due to the newest DTM, and of course a lot has to do with Kris's calibration. A lot has changed in the 20 months since Chad B last calibrated my projector!! It's a whole new world with a Lumagen.





Well yes, I agree Craig totally. I think I was looking for any indication of any of the DTM settings which say Kris paid more attention to in particular given there's a few. I'm always keeping my eye out naturally here for tips and things to try -Jim's ones have been excellent of course. Otherwise, I'd like to think I'm getting a good feel for how to get nice results when looking at content through DTM mode. I've had an extensive look at how display max light and Ratio effect the picture, especially with clipping.


I watched a few scenes from Captain Marvel and Alita yesterday, both looked superb with DTM. The real test was how good the low light scenes in Solo looked, they really looked improved. I ran the same scenes through MadVR DTM and it didn't quite get there when the settings were matched up, still looked a bit too dim.


----------



## RickAVManiac

Since I received my Radiance I watch couples of movies and with the DTM I can now say I really like to watch a HDR movie. My JVC NX7 look spectacular pair with the Radiance Pro. 

Before the Pro, I used to always prefer the blu ray version of the movie. Call me crazy but I tough the blu ray has better black and more realistic looking image. Of course I was at the same time impress by the 4K HDR but to my eye there was always something wrong. The black seem elevated and the bright as no details. Everything else in the middle was not better and many time look too dim.

Thanks to the Radiance Pro I now have best of both world. I still have the wow factor from a good 4k HDR transfer. But at the same time I keep the best black with lot of details and best bright with lots of details. The image is just outstanding but at the same time still look natural and realistic. 

Like you can read, to date I am pretty happy and would recommend the Radiance Pro to all setup that want to be serious about HDR. 

The financial investment was big for me but since I think it’s a medium/long term investment, the Radiance will be in my rack longer than my current projector and the one after. 

And all that good word is only for one function the DTM. The Radiance can do a lot more like grayscal, gamma and color calibration. And many many other functions. 

So now it’s time for me to attack my next goal, calibrate my NX7 with Chromapure and my meter.


----------



## Craig Peer

RickAVManiac said:


> Since I received my Radiance I watch couples of movies and with the DTM I can now say I really like to watch a HDR movie. My JVC NX7 look spectacular pair with the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Before the Pro, I used to always prefer the blu ray version of the movie. Call me crazy but I tough the blu ray has better black and more realistic looking image. Of course I was at the same time impress by the 4K HDR but to my eye there was always something wrong. The black seem elevated and the bright as no details. Everything else in the middle was not better and many time look too dim.
> 
> Thanks to the Radiance Pro I now have best of both world. I still have the wow factor from a good 4k HDR transfer. But at the same time I keep the best black with lot of details and best bright with lots of details. The image is just outstanding but at the same time still look natural and realistic.
> 
> Like you can read, to date I am pretty happy and would recommend the Radiance Pro to all setup that want to be serious about HDR.
> 
> The financial investment was big for me but since I think it’s a medium/long term investment, the Radiance will be in my rack longer than my current projector and the one after.
> 
> And all that good word is only for one function the DTM. The Radiance can do a lot more like grayscal, gamma and color calibration. And many many other functions.
> 
> So now it’s time for me to attack my next goal, calibrate my NX7 with Chromapure and my meter.


I have a pile of 4K movies to watch this week. I’ll bet 4K looks great on your NX7 too. It’s amazing how far 4K has come this year picture wise !!







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BrolicBeast

bobof said:


> Does anyone know if there is already a Harmony device that has the direct IR codes for the various aspects, instead of having to do alt+235 for 2.4 etc?




Yes—the Harmony Elite. I mapped ARs to buttons for rapid access.

I posted a YouTube video about mapping Lumagen AR functions to a remote, Auto-Aspect switching, NLS, and DTM last night, but YouTube took it down immediately because some of the audio from an Interstellar Clip was audible. I need to re-edit the video and post tonight. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

BrolicBeast said:


> Yes—the Harmony Elite. I mapped ARs to buttons for rapid access.
> 
> I posted a YouTube video about mapping Lumagen AR functions to a remote, Auto-Aspect switching, NLS, and DTM last night, but YouTube took it down immediately because some of the audio from an Interstellar Clip was audible. I need to re-edit the video and post tonight.


I have Harmony Elite, my point is that for 2.4 all the devices I could find in the Harmony DB only have ALT and 2.35 so you can make a macro. They don't have a discrete 2.4 button. Did you find a device in the database that has a discrete 2.4 command in it?


----------



## BrolicBeast

bobof said:


> I have Harmony Elite, my point is that for 2.4 all the devices I could find in the Harmony DB only have ALT and 2.35 so you can make a macro. They don't have a discrete 2.4 button. Did you find a device in the database that has a discrete 2.4 command in it?



Nope, you would def need to create the macro sequence and map it to a single button.

Edit: What I do for my macros is I configure the commands to repeat 5 times with each button press, because sometimes once just isn’t enough.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> but YouTube took it down immediately because some of the audio from an Interstellar Clip was audible.


REALLY. What is that about? Not sanctioned/approved by the Studio?


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> REALLY. What is that about? Not sanctioned/approved by the Studio?




Yup. Many studies don’t allow their content on YouTube. The new Lumagen software update is great. Did tons of real-time A/B tests on my favorite DTM test scenes for the video.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## bobof

BrolicBeast said:


> Nope, you would def need to create the macro sequence and map it to a single button.
> 
> Edit: What I do for my macros is I configure the commands to repeat 5 times with each button press, because sometimes once just isn’t enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Cool. It is just annoying as if I recall you have to create the macros for each activity you want to put it in. Would be nice if the IR protocol were extended with custom IR discrete codes for all the ALT commands. 

I have IR in on my Pi based controller, I will probably make that do the aspect changes over the serial interface in response to a single button press instead. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


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## bobof

BrolicBeast said:


> Yup. Many studies don’t allow their content on YouTube. The new Lumagen software update is great. Did tons of real-time A/B tests on my favorite DTM test scenes for the video.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Did you make any changes to your DTM setup on the basis of the new update? I watched Interstellar last night and thought the new release looked great with my own settings (defaults apart from the low ratio being adjusted upwards) 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> The new Lumagen software update is great. Did tons of real-time A/B tests on my favorite DTM test scenes for the video.


Is is great. After I installed it, Craig Rounds walked me through changing a bunch of parameters and the end result is stunning (though I only watched a bit of the beginning of Shazam! since it was the movie that showed some weaknesses(?) in the previous release). The details in dark scenes is way better as is the overall image. A not inexpensive add-on but one that will last in my system as long as I last on planet earth - as will the panamorph - as will the projector!


----------



## BrolicBeast

bobof said:


> Did you make any changes to your DTM setup on the basis of the new update? I watched Interstellar last night and thought the new release looked great with my own settings (defaults apart from the low ratio being adjusted upwards)
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk




Nope, I stuck with the defaults. The defaults work really, really well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> Is is great. After I installed it, Craig Rounds walked me through changing a bunch of parameters and the end result is stunning (though I only watched a bit of the beginning of Shazam! since it was the movie that showed some weaknesses(?) in the previous release). The details in dark scenes is way better as is the overall image. A not inexpensive add-on but one that will last in my system as long as I last on planet earth - as will the panamorph - as will the projector!




If I look hard enough, I could quote at least three times from your build thread and your previous theater’s thread where you said something akin to keeping gear forever.....

Just saying.....the grave condition of upgradeitis was originally diagnosed based on your symptoms! You were patient zero! Lol. 

Shazam is one I haven’t tried—I can’t bring myself to purchase it...maybe if I find it on sale for under $15. What have you been using for your HDR torture tests? HDR Intensity Mapping introduced last year was a truly great addition, and Dynamic Tone Mapping really rounds out the package for a stellar HDR image. No other piece of equipment in my rack has the continued support or the company-to-customer feedback that Lumagen has. Glad I made this financially significant yet uber high-value investment back in 2017! It continues to pay for itself. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Roland Janus

dinamigym said:


> Anyone on the latest firmware and a Sony 5000 have an issue where the Lumagen continuously loses sync/black screen and then regains/image comes back. Happens about every 30s. Have not had this issue until I loaded the latest firmware. So far it happens watching Godzilla:King of the Monsters on Kscape Strato and Netflix HDR content thru ATV4K? Haven't really tested beyond that. Thinking of going back to previous FW. I watched Godzilla straight thru on the previous FW without any such issue?


never seen that.


----------



## Craig Peer

BrolicBeast said:


> If I look hard enough, I could quote at least three times from your build thread and your previous theater’s thread where you said something akin to keeping gear forever.....
> 
> *Just saying.....the grave condition of upgradeitis was originally diagnosed based on your symptoms! You were patient zero! Lol.*
> 
> Shazam is one I haven’t tried—I can’t bring myself to purchase it...maybe if I find it on sale for under $15. What have you been using for your HDR torture tests? HDR Intensity Mapping introduced last year was a truly great addition, and Dynamic Tone Mapping really rounds out the package for a stellar HDR image. No other piece of equipment in my rack has the continued support or the company-to-customer feedback that Lumagen has. Glad I made this financially significant yet uber high-value investment back in 2017! It continues to pay for itself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Ha ha ! Upgradeitis is a chronic disease whose symptoms lay dormant for years ( I had my Sim2 Lumis Host for 7 1/2 years until I had another occurrence ). The Lumagen and DCR lens hopefully have inoculated me for 4 or 5 more years. 

I'm watching Shazam tomorrow - I'll let you know what I think. Looks pretty funny.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Roland Janus said:


> never seen that.


I have the same drop out problem with ATV4K and made Jim aware. I know of one UK customer who also has this issue. I am using the previous release until the guys can get to bottom of it. Neither myself or my customer are VW5000 owners...both JVC's.


----------



## MickyTVR

Craig Peer said:


> Ha ha ! Upgradeitis is a chronic disease whose symptoms lay dormant for years ( I had my Sim2 Lumis Host for 7 1/2 years until I had another occurrence ). The Lumagen and DCR lens hopefully have inoculated me for 4 or 5 more years.
> 
> I'm watching Shazam tomorrow - I'll let you know what I think. Looks pretty funny.


Reported the same issue on my Sony 760es last night have reverted to the previous update that’s working ok.

Mick


----------



## tigerhonaker

Hello all,

I just read through a great many of the more recent pages on this thread.
I find the content on the Lumagen of great interest.

Terry


----------



## gigimonagas

gigimonagas said:


> I went back to previous firmware by doing a boot update and brightness, colors and contrast are back to normal. There's definetly something weird with new firmware. Just like Thrang said, image is flat and lifeless and way less brighter at least on my RS4500.


Well, last night I upgraded to the latest firmware and I must say I'm impressed. Brightness is back to normal and colors more real than ever!


----------



## audioguy

BrolicBeast said:


> If I look hard enough, I could quote at least three times from your build thread and your previous theater’s thread where you said something akin to keeping gear forever.....
> 
> Just saying.....the grave condition of upgradeitis was originally diagnosed based on your symptoms! You were patient zero! Lol.


At least three times - probably more. This time, however, I decided I needed an accountability partner. So I wrote a letter to my wife committing to not change the following for at least 5 years: Projector, Lumagen, Lens, Trinnov, amps, and speakers (subs could be an exception if I were to find something that the net exchange cost would be zero - or less). Not only was spending money part of the issue, I was spending too much time thinking about the next widget and not enough enjoying what I already have. 



> Shazam is one I haven’t tried—I can’t bring myself to purchase it...maybe if I find it on sale for under $15. What have you been using for your HDR torture tests? HDR Intensity Mapping introduced last year was a truly great addition, and Dynamic Tone Mapping really rounds out the package for a stellar HDR image. No other piece of equipment in my rack has the continued support or the company-to-customer feedback that Lumagen has. Glad I made this financially significant yet uber high-value investment back in 2017! It continues to pay for itself.


Shazam! was not my kind of movie. I bought it based upon Ralph's review. While the audio and video are nice, it just did not click for me. 

I've looked at a number of clips of different movies (some of which are on your list) but at the end of the day, looking for either "improvements" or changes by turning on and off DTM is just one more way to take away from the experience. I LOVE the image I am seeing.

And I would agree with you on the longevity possibilities of the Lumagen - but I would add the Panamorph products as well. I had my last one for over 15 years.


----------



## Eventidal

The latest software is also not working with my Sony995ES. Loss of HDMI connection, green screen.... Back to old firmware.

Do not install if you own a Sony projector!


----------



## Roland Janus

Eventidal said:


> The latest software is also not working with my Sony995ES. Loss of HDMI connection, green screen.... Back to old firmware.
> 
> Do not install if you own a Sony projector!


Wondering if Lumagen has a Sony pj to test with, even better a 5000


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> At least three times - probably more. This time, however, I decided I needed an accountability partner. So I wrote a letter to my wife committing to not change the following for at least 5 years: Projector, Lumagen, Lens, Trinnov, amps, and speakers (subs could be an exception if I were to find something that the net exchange cost would be zero - or less). Not only was spending money part of the issue, I was spending too much time thinking about the next widget and not enough enjoying what I already have.
> 
> 
> 
> Shazam! was not my kind of movie. I bought it based upon Ralph's review. While the audio and video are nice, it just did not click for me.
> 
> I've looked at a number of clips of different movies (some of which are on your list) but at the end of the day, looking for either "improvements" or changes by turning on and off DTM is just one more way to take away from the experience. I LOVE the image I am seeing.
> 
> And I would agree with you on the longevity possibilities of the Lumagen - but I would add the Panamorph products as well. I had my last one for over 15 years.


Chuck,

What is the exact full-name of the Lumagen as I wish to do some in-depth reading from reviewers/owners not on AVS.
I also would like to look up the current product with the New/Latest Firmware Up-Dates for correct pricing ???

Thanks,
Terry


----------



## Craig Peer

tigerhonaker said:


> Chuck,
> 
> What is the exact full-name of the Lumagen as I wish to do some in-depth reading from reviewers/owners not on AVS.
> I also would like to look up the current product with the New/Latest Firmware Up-Dates for correct pricing ???
> 
> Thanks,
> Terry


RadiancePro Series UltraHD Video Processor - http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_details


----------



## jrp

Gordon Fraser said:


> I have the same drop out problem with ATV4K and made Jim aware. I know of one UK customer who also has this issue. I am using the previous release until the guys can get to bottom of it. Neither myself or my customer are VW5000 owners...both JVC's.


Over the weekend I received a few reports of issues with the 080919 release for dropouts. On the other hand most are saying it works for them. So FPGA is close but not perfect.

While the CAD tools said the new FPGA had good timing, the tools are not perfect. Patrick is on vacation but will return on Thursday and can work on the FPGA timing then.

Anyone having an issue with 080919, please revert to an earlier release that works for you until we can get a release with a better FPGA posted.


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> Wondering if Lumagen has a Sony pj to test with, even better a 5000


We use a JVC RS4500 and various TVs (mainly an LG OLED and a Sony 4K HDR TV) for testing. So no Sony projector here.


----------



## stefanop

Eventidal said:


> The latest software is also not working with my Sony995ES. Loss of HDMI connection, green screen.... Back to old firmware.
> 
> Do not install if you own a Sony projector!


I've installed it on a VW5000 and almost everything is working perfectly, just a couple of random frame with noticeable yellow cast in the whole evening


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> 7 series and up look fine. Their auto tone map actually does a pretty good job too. I wouldn't set the output to SDR in the Lumagen for a 7 series and up, I would set to output HDR and turn DTM on with a display max of about 700-800.




I think there may be something wrong with my “system”, because with Display Max Light set to 700-800 results in the picture being way way way too bright, with blown out colors and blacks. I am finding I need to add an extra “0” to your numbers, and it looks fine.

I settled on 6,000, and it looks good, but I am sure there is room for improvement.

Is this normal?

Edit: I am using HDR2020 output, no 1D or 3D LUT calibrations, and the LG OLED Dynamic Contrast setting is Off.

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## dinamigym

stefanop said:


> I've installed it on a VW5000 and almost everything is working perfectly, just a couple of random frame with noticeable yellow cast in the whole evening




Do you happen to have Kaleidescape Strato as a source? That is pretty much unsusable with the new FW in my system. It works perfect with the previous FW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eventidal

stefanop said:


> I've installed it on a VW5000 and almost everything is working perfectly, just a couple of random frame with noticeable yellow cast in the whole evening


Well, the update worked with some sources but not all of them. Sky receiver had no problems but my Zappiti video player had serious (timing) issues.
Wondered at first why Patrick did not response.


----------



## BrolicBeast

For anyone interested, I shot a video on the video setup in my cinema, inclusive of the Lumagen Radiance Pro. Auto-aspect setup, NLS, DTM setup, control recommendations for AR switching, and more are covered in the video.


----------



## jamesmil

jrp said:


> Over the weekend I received a few reports of issues with the 080919 release for dropouts. On the other hand most are saying it works for them. So FPGA is close but not perfect.
> 
> While the CAD tools said the new FPGA had good timing, the tools are not perfect. Patrick is on vacation but will return on Thursday and can work on the FPGA timing then.
> 
> Anyone having an issue with 080919, please revert to an earlier release that works for you until we can get a release with a better FPGA posted.


Just to add to this, I noticed that with 080919 the Nvidia Shield TV (using 6' Monoprice Certified Premium High Speed cable) will exhibit dropouts when set to 4K60 4:2:2, but not when set to 4K60 4:2:0 (or anything 4K24). This wasn't the case in previous releases. Benefits of 080919 outweigh this issue for me, so not reverting, just wanted to give you another data point to potentially test with.


----------



## audioguy

I finally watched a few movies all of the way through since I installed the update. WOW! pretty much sums it up. The RS4500, when compared to other JVC projectors, doesn't have the same contrast levels. That may be true on some test patterns but when watching real world movies, you would be hard pressed to tell. 

The combination of the RS4500/Lumagen/Panamorph is one heck of a combination. Consider me more than pleasantly pleased!!


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> I think there may be something wrong with my “system”, because with Display Max Light set to 700-800 results in the picture being way way way too bright, with blown out colors and blacks. I am finding I need to add an extra “0” to your numbers, and it looks fine.
> 
> I settled on 6,000, and it looks good, but I am sure there is room for improvement.
> 
> Is this normal?
> 
> Edit: I am using HDR2020 output, no 1D or 3D LUT calibrations, and the LG OLED Dynamic Contrast setting is Off.


With the output Colorspace = HDR2020, you are doing tone mapping twice (in the Pro and the in projector/TV). This is not a good situation.

However, some have made it work but turning down the projector/TV tone mapping and setting Max Light to the 2000 to 3000 range. If you do not turn down the projector/TV tone mapping you really need the Max Light at 10000 - the full HDR range since that is likely what the projector/TV is assuming.

If you can turn the projector/TV's tone mapping down enough to be able to use Max Light in the 2000 range the Pro can do some tone mapping for content mastered to 3000 nits and higher.

That said there are some tricks you can do with a calibration to partially diminsh the projector/TV's tone mapping. I have some ideas I plan to test (just bought a LG OLED for this and other testing). Kris Deering has some tricks for this case as well that he could do if you hire him to calibrate.

In general projectors should have output Colorspace = SDR2020. If a TV does not allow the same light output for SDR input mode as for HDR input mode, it may be best to set Pro output Colorspace = HDR2020. In this case you might find double tone mapping to have issues and the only choice then would be to turn off the Radiance Pro tone mapping and use the TVs tone mapping. Or the above balancing the Pro and TV tone mapping may work best. If you are like many and are happy with the light output of your TV in SDR2020 mode, then you would set up as I have discussed, as shown in the Radiance Pro manual and the set-up slide set.


----------



## stefanop

dinamigym said:


> Do you happen to have Kaleidescape Strato as a source? That is pretty much unsusable with the new FW in my system. It works perfect with the previous FW.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, No Strato here. Oppo 203 and many Dune Media Player.


----------



## stefanop

Eventidal said:


> Well, the update worked with some sources but not all of them. Sky receiver had no problems but my Zappiti video player had serious (timing) issues.
> Wondered at first why Patrick did not response.


I've got many Dune (Pro 4K) which, I suppose, are similar, if not equal, to Zappiti player. Maybe is the way they are connected to. All my player go into the receiver and then the receiver goes to Radiance


----------



## Eventidal

stefanop said:


> I've got many Dune (Pro 4K) which, I suppose, are similar, if not equal, to Zappiti player. Maybe is the way they are connected to. All my player go into the receiver and then the receiver goes to Radiance


No, all of my sources go directly into the Lumagen as recommended. No problems except last firmware. Back to old firmware. No problems.

So the conclusion is obvious... firmware bug.


----------



## msleb

Does anybody have experience using the Lumagen auto aspect function with a Control4 set up? My needs are fairly simple. Currently I do not use auto aspect, and when I am watching a 2.35 aspect ratio movie I use the Control4 remote to activate a macro, which zooms my Sony 5000 lens and removes my masking panels. When I am watching a 1.78 aspect ratio movie I use the Control4 remote, manually, to activate another macro, which zooms out the Sony 5000 lens and puts the side masking panels back in place. 

This isn’t exactly a hardship, but it would be nice to use a serial cable between the radiance Pro and the Control4 HC 800 to automate this process. Is this easy to do? Or, to put it another way, does the Control4 serial driver allow use of a customized macro? 

I have seen other posts that are several years old that say the serial driver is limited and to stack and IP driver on top of the serial driver, but I am not entirely clear how that would work. Any help would be appreciated!


----------



## thrang

Re: the new firmware:

For me, the left arrow shape and transition values are broken for both high and low - setting either to one extreme or the other has no impact on the image - zero.

Ratio, gamma, and black seems to work

The broken shape and transition issue exists for dtm on or off - doesn’t matter.

EDIT: perhaps not broken but certain titles reflect no changes, other the changes are very subtle...while the idea of finer changes is good, perhaps you need many more steps than 0-7 or 0-15 for shape and transition accordingly


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Re: the new firmware:
> 
> For me, the left arrow shape and transition values are broken for both high and low - setting either to one extreme or the other has no impact on the image - zero.
> 
> Ratio, gamma, and black seems to work
> 
> The broken shape and transition issue exists for dtm on or off - doesn’t matter.
> 
> EDIT: perhaps not broken but certain titles reflect no changes, other the changes are very subtle...while the idea of finer changes is good, perhaps you need many more steps than 0-7 or 0-15 for shape and transition accordingly


Personally I would go the other way. I'd like to eventually see shape and transition removed entirely. I can't help but think that for any given measured peak brightness and black floor, there should be an optimal shape, transition and ratio value (for both high and low scenes) that a) maximises the nit-for-nit range, b) minimises highlight compression, and c) provides the smoothest transition between the two, without the need for more dial turning. 

I appreciate we need these controls now because DTM is still in something of a testing phase, but I'd like to hope we are converging on a future point where the user enters their measured peak brightness (the actual measurement not a multiple thereof), perhaps selects a display type, and is done - maybe retaining gamma and black level controls to allow seasoning to taste.


----------



## SJHT

Eventidal said:


> The latest software is also not working with my Sony995ES. Loss of HDMI connection, green screen.... Back to old firmware.
> 
> Do not install if you own a Sony projector!


It seems very stable on my 995, but only have been using Strato/Alto/costar and DISH as sources since updating. SJ


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Personally I would go the other way. I'd like to eventually see shape and transition removed entirely. I can't help but think that for any given measured peak brightness and black floor, there should be a optimal shape, transition and ratio value (for both high and low scenes) that a) maximises the nit-for-nit range, b) minimises highlight compression, and c) provides the smoothest transition between the two, without the need for more dial turning.
> 
> I appreciate we need these controls now because DTM is still in something of a testing phase, but I'd like to hope we are converging on a future point where the user enters their measured peak brightness (the actual measurement not a multiple thereof), perhaps selects a display type, and is done - maybe retaining gamma and black level controls to allow seasoning to taste.


Agree, I'd very much prefer eventually the work of converting "real observed nits" into whatever internal parameters are necessary for driving the various bits of internal machinery to be done by the Lumagen. Apart from anything else this should (from a user's point of view) eliminate the need to consider settings changes between releases - the algorithms would be expected to do the best job with the observed physical capabilities of the system.

I can see how we got here given the evolution in HDR mapping over what has been a relatively short period of time, but I do think that a rationalisation would be helpful. It seems like now there are basically two controls of most significance - the Display Max Light and the Low Ratio setting - whose relationship to peak white is becoming reasonably defined to the peak white performance, so this is almost a UI thing now. Plus I guess the black control (and maybe gamma) if you have a raised black floor in room. And maybe having all the necessary controls living in the same place. I'm not really sure what the reasoning is still for the low ratio, for example, still being input related, while DML isn't.

Within the confines of the current setup; I'd personally currently find it more useful if on the "left arrow" menu you had quick direct access to DML and low ratio (and if there isn't space, for it to nudge shape and trans off the list). With the low ratio showing the relevant calculation whether or not you're in DTM mode (instead of having to toggle DTM to get it to display).


----------



## dinamigym

SJHT said:


> It seems very stable on my 995, but only have been using Strato/Alto/costar and DISH as sources since updating. SJ


For me...Strato, new FW and Sony 5000 are not playing well together at all. Previous FW its rock solid.


----------



## KarlKlammer

After watching 6 minutes of The Meg and trying for two hours to figure out how to prevent burned out highlights and clipped colors (including a complete factory reset), I went back to 072119.


----------



## Praetorpwj

New firmware did not get on well with my Zappiti. Worked initially then consistent and significant distortion and signal loss even after rebooting both machines. Using JVC X7000. Back to 0421 for me again.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> Personally I would go the other way. I'd like to eventually see shape and transition removed entirely. I can't help but think that for any given measured peak brightness and black floor, there should be an optimal shape, transition and ratio value (for both high and low scenes) that a) maximises the nit-for-nit range, b) minimises highlight compression, and c) provides the smoothest transition between the two, without the need for more dial turning.
> 
> I appreciate we need these controls now because DTM is still in something of a testing phase, but I'd like to hope we are converging on a future point where the user enters their measured peak brightness (the actual measurement not a multiple thereof), perhaps selects a display type, and is done - maybe retaining gamma and black level controls to allow seasoning to taste.


Agree completely. I tell all my clients to just leave them alone. There is absolutely no reason to mess with shape/transition at this point. Most people don't even understand what they do and just start randomly cycling them up and down. They really don't need to be touched. There are other settings in the menu I would eliminate as well, but Jim is always nervous about getting rid of features. 



KarlKlammer said:


> After watching 6 minutes of The Meg and trying for two hours to figure out how to prevent burned out highlights and clipped colors (including a complete factory reset), I went back to 072119.


Sounds like you have some setup issues with both the projector and Lumagen. I offer consulting and setup services for the Lumagen so reach out if you need a hand.


----------



## Kris Deering

Stability issues definitely sound Sony related. I installed the latest on several JVC's over the weekend and used it on mine with zero issues. I have one client that had an issue with a JVC so far, others haven't said a peep. I'm sure Jim and Pat will have a look soon to try and dial in the FPGA a bit more.


----------



## jrp

Concerning comments on removing Shape and Transition:

We have for several months been considering adding an "Expert" mode for HDR tone mapping now that we have Dynamic Tone Mapping working so well. With Static Tone Mapping all the control parameters made sense to expose to allow users to tweak the settings for different movies. Now with DTM both Kris and I are finding that changing them does not improve the image quality and can certainly hurt image quality poorly adjusted when using DTM.

As an aside DTM is now at the stage that we are recommending you set DLev = 8. This ignores the Static Metadata for DTM. This helps improve dark scenes like those in Blade Runner 2049 since blending with the STM MaxCLL is not holding the scene MaxCLL up to a higher level and preventing the scene from getting as dark as it should.

Note that a slight change to Shape or Tran can help a particular scene, but it would then hurt other content. We are finding the defaults give excellent image quality for all content. For an Expert Mode we would not remove the settings, but would only show them in Expert Mode to prevent those who do not know how they work from hurting image quality.

We will likely change the default Low-set Ratio to 24 based on a typical projector and what we are seeing with the current DTM implementation. However, 15 still looks excellent and gives a bit more headroom for dark scenes, but 24 gives a brighter image (to an appropriate level for dark scenes IMO).

Several have noted now that DTM settings required are only CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light (for very bright scenes), and the Low-set Ratio (to adjust effective-display-max-light for dark scenes). We agree with this assessment.

If we add the expert mode, the defaults would be (as of today):

- Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu as it is now. Set by user
- Low-Set Ratio in the left parameter menu. Shows effective-max-light. Set by user
- DTM would always be on (but not shown). No reason to use STM anymore
- DLev = 8 (but not shown)
- Ratio = 24 for Low-set (shown), and 0 for High-set (not shown)
- Shape = current defaults (not shown)
- Tran = current defaults (not shown)
- Gamma = 0 (not shown)
- Black = 0 (not shown)
- Crossover value is not used for DTM (not shown)
- Default Max is not needed for DTM (not shown)

In "Expert mode" we would likely have the same look as in the current release. 

Not in a rush to do this but it makes sense.

=============== 

I gave some suggestions for Max Light and Low-Set Effective Max Light in a previous post. Those still hold but we have refined the suggestions as shown below. Note that the following recommendations are for projectors:

Enable DTM

Set DLev = 8

Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation

Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column

Leave other HDR Tone Mapping parameters at default values.

======= 

As a side note, I had Max Light at 350 to 400, and Low-set Ratio = 15, for STM, and now for DTM I have Max Light = 350 to 400 and Ratio = 24 (but 15 still looks excellent). So while you might want to tweak Tone Mapping parameters I believe we have met our goal of "no required changes" from the STM settings for excellent performance with DTM. I know this audience will want to tweak, but I can assure our non-tweak customers that they do not need to change any Tone Mapping settings to get excellent results with DTM.

======= 

I am planning to work with our LG OLED and hopefully come up with some recommendations for TVs.

======= 

Again, thanks for all the praise for the new DTM version. We are thrilled with how positive the comments are. And for those with issues for the 080919 release, we hope to have a release with an improved FPGA this week.


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> Stability issues definitely sound Sony related. I installed the latest on several JVC's over the weekend and used it on mine with zero issues. I have one client that had an issue with a JVC so far, others haven't said a peep. I'm sure Jim and Pat will have a look soon to try and dial in the FPGA a bit more.




Watched “ Shazam “ tonight on 4K Blu-ray. The picture was jaw dropping good and DTM worked extremely well. Your calibration Kris is outstanding! No issues here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mark_H

With my JVC 4500 (Z1) I only get ~50 nits on screen (big screen/low gain) and definitely need all the DTM controls in order to get a decent "HDR" image. Default settings, with current firmwares, do not work for me at all. So while it might be safe to say that the current Lumagen defaults are looking good on most displays, they don't work for every display and so, please do not remove access to the full set of DTM settings: an expert mode is fine, as long as there is some way to get to all the parameters...


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> With my JVC 4500 (Z1) I only get ~50 nits on screen (big screen/low gain) and definitely need all the DTM controls in order to get a decent "HDR" image. Default settings, with current firmwares, do not work for me at all. So while it might be safe to say that the current Lumagen defaults are looking good on most displays, they don't work for every display and so, please do not remove access to the full set of DTM settings: an expert mode is fine, as long as there is some way to get to all the parameters...


Out of interest, which settings and how are you tweaking? (assuming you are at liberty to disclose). Are you outputting SDR2020? 

As an aside though, I don't think there will be anything unique about your 50 nits vs anyone else's (assuming your 50 nits has the recommended starting point and are calibrated to standard gamma 2.4) so if there ever were a much simplified peak nits based set of options and low nit displays didn't work with the current settings you'd assume that would get fixed in the algorithm that goes from peak nits to the various control values. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Out of interest, which settings and how are you tweaking? (assuming you are at liberty to disclose). Are you outputting SDR2020?


Outputting SDR2020, yes. 



> As an aside though, I don't think there will be anything unique about your 50 nits vs anyone else's (assuming your 50 nits has the recommended starting point and are calibrated to standard gamma 2.4)


It does.

The default settings were pretty good on previous firmwares, but the recent changes "broke" that leaving me with a dull image. Only way to get back to where I was, without blowing out colours etc, is to adjust RATIO, SHAPE and TRANSITION away from their defaults, with custom settings for both HIGH and LOW ranges. With those adjustments made the image is once again back to where it was and very good looking. All I'm saying is that I, and perhaps others, need those adjustments available... "hidden" in an expert mode is fine, just as long as they are there. 

The problem with low nits displays, in my experience, is that you cannot aim for a MAX LIGHT of 4 x nits, which I think is the current recommended starting point for projectors, and which I guess the defaults are predicated upon. That setting (200) on my projector results in a bright image but with lots of blown colours and an artificial looking image. Raising MAX LIGHT is the solution, but then the defaults no longer look good.


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Outputting SDR2020, yes.
> 
> It does.
> 
> The default settings were pretty good on previous firmwares, but the recent changes "broke" that leaving me with a dull image. Only way to get back to where I was, without blowing out colours etc, is to adjust RATIO, SHAPE and TRANSITION away from their defaults, with custom settings for both HIGH and LOW ranges. With those adjustments made the image is once again back to where it was and very good looking. All I'm saying is that I, and perhaps others, need those adjustments available... "hidden" in an expert mode is fine, just as long as they are there.
> 
> The problem with low nits displays, in my experience, is that you cannot aim for a MAX LIGHT of 4 x nits, which I think is the current recommended starting point for projectors, and which I guess the defaults are predicated upon. That setting (200) on my projector results in a bright image but with lots of blown colours and an artificial looking image. Raising MAX LIGHT is the solution, but then the defaults no longer look good.


50nits is a tough call for tone mapping, as there is essentially no range for highlights if you want to keep ADL similar to SDR. It might be a usage case that Jim and Patrick haven't specifically tested for.

Are you using an a-lens Mark, and are you running the Z1 in high or mid laser?


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> 50nits is a tough call for tone mapping, as there is essentially no range for highlights if you want to keep ADL similar to SDR. It might be a usage case that Jim and Patrick haven't specifically tested for.


It *is* a tough call. For a while there, prior to DTM, I actually disabled HDR processing and went straight SDR2020 from the source as it was the only way to maintain acceptable brightness, however there were still issues, especially colour problems. DTM changed all that and allows the Lumagen to very successfully do all the HDR->SDR conversion so that I can once again get the best possible image from UHD sources within my limited brightness.



> Are you using an a-lens Mark, and are you running the Z1 in high or mid laser?


No a-lens for me, and running both MID (for 1.78 material) and HIGH (for ZOOMed 2.35 material) laser as that balances out the brightness for both types of presentation.

Fingers are still tightly crossed for a brighter JVC laser at some point, so my brightness issues fade away. Or I could go for a higher gain screen, but that's not something I can easily achieve without major work to my room.


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> It *is* a tough call. For a while there, prior to DTM, I actually disabled HDR processing and went straight SDR2020 from the source as it was the only way to maintain acceptable brightness, however there were still issues, especially colour problems. DTM changed all that and allows the Lumagen to very successfully do all the HDR->SDR conversion so that I can once again get the best possible image from UHD sources within my limited brightness.
> 
> 
> 
> No a-lens for me, and running both MID (for 1.78 material) and HIGH (for ZOOMed 2.35 material) laser as that balances out the brightness for both types of presentation.
> 
> Fingers are still tightly crossed for a brighter JVC laser at some point, so my brightness issues fade away. Or I could go for a higher gain screen, but that's not something I can easily achieve without major work to my room.


You could add the Paladin DCR - that would get you up to around 67 nits - still quite low, but an increased range for highlight mapping.


----------



## Mark_H

Wookii said:


> You could add the Paladin DCR - that would get you up to around 67 nits - still quite low, but an increased range for highlight mapping.


Well, without wanting to start a fight with anybody, I'm not interested in a-lenses. Been there, done that; prefer the image without one. Will hold out for a brighter projector...


----------



## FenceMan

Does 147 nits measured from a 100" screen sound about right for RS2000?


----------



## Wookii

Mark_H said:


> Well, without wanting to start a fight with anybody, I'm not interested in a-lenses. Been there, done that; prefer the image without one. Will hold out for a brighter projector...


That's fair enough, it was just a thought for the least painful way to add a fair bit of brightness. FWIW I had similar reservations about adding an A-lens back in, after getting rid of my Prismasonic years ago, and was ready to send the DCR straight back if I saw even the slightest loss in resolution or other negative artefact. However it was a completely different animal to the Prismasonic - it's without compromise in my set-up it just adds usable brightness without any negative consequence.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Outputting SDR2020, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does.
> 
> 
> 
> The default settings were pretty good on previous firmwares, but the recent changes "broke" that leaving me with a dull image. Only way to get back to where I was, without blowing out colours etc, is to adjust RATIO, SHAPE and TRANSITION away from their defaults, with custom settings for both HIGH and LOW ranges. With those adjustments made the image is once again back to where it was and very good looking. All I'm saying is that I, and perhaps others, need those adjustments available... "hidden" in an expert mode is fine, just as long as they are there.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with low nits displays, in my experience, is that you cannot aim for a MAX LIGHT of 4 x nits, which I think is the current recommended starting point for projectors, and which I guess the defaults are predicated upon. That setting (200) on my projector results in a bright image but with lots of blown colours and an artificial looking image. Raising MAX LIGHT is the solution, but then the defaults no longer look good.


Even around 300 DML I find a bit too clipped in lots of content with the default settings, so I sympathise... 

It is a massive shame that the only way as projection consumers that we have of getting 4k and WCG is to also take the bitter pill that is the consumer HDR transfers which really are wholly unsuitable. Shame there isn't a service that would allow access to the DCP packages for back catalog. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> Again, thanks for all the praise for the new DTM version. We are thrilled with how positive the comments are. And for those with issues for the 080919 release, we hope to have a release with an improved FPGA this week.


Hope you release it this week as my Lumagen Install is on Monday by Adam Peltz and it will be great that he can install the latest version on my Sony VW5000 - Kaleidescape Mix which looks to be most problematic.

On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??

Thanks in advance.


----------



## SJHT

Ash Sharma said:


> Hope you release it this week as my Lumagen Install is on Monday by Adam Peltz and it will be great that he can install the latest version on my Sony VW5000 - Kaleidescape Mix which looks to be most problematic.
> 
> On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Two options that I can think of:
1. Call dealer and they walk you through updating the settings. Not too bad really depending on the changes. Kris Deering recently did this for me.
2. Download your configuration. Email the file to your dealer. They update and send it back. You would have to upload back into your Pro. Not really much different then updating firmware.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

SJHT said:


> Two options that I can think of:
> 1. Call dealer and they walk you through updating the settings. Not too bad really depending on the changes. Kris Deering recently did this for me.
> 2. Download your configuration. Email the file to your dealer. They update and send it back. You would have to upload back into your Pro. Not really much different then updating firmware.





I have done the second option for many clients in UK and beyond...quite simple with a windows laptop or a mac running parallels etc


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> With my JVC 4500 (Z1) I only get ~50 nits on screen (big screen/low gain) and definitely need all the DTM controls in order to get a decent "HDR" image. Default settings, with current firmwares, do not work for me at all. So while it might be safe to say that the current Lumagen defaults are looking good on most displays, they don't work for every display and so, please do not remove access to the full set of DTM settings: an expert mode is fine, as long as there is some way to get to all the parameters...


While 50 nits does present limitations in overall brightness, you should be able to get a nice looking image without any artifacts. I offer remote setup/tweaking of the Lumagen so am available if you need help.



Craig Peer said:


> Watched “ Shazam “ tonight on 4K Blu-ray. The picture was jaw dropping good and DTM worked extremely well. Your calibration Kris is outstanding! No issues here.


Glad to hear it is looking so good! The new DTM helps a lot with that movie, especially in the darker scenes like the opening sequence.



FenceMan said:


> Does 147 nits measured from a 100" screen sound about right for RS2000?


Sounds about right to me, more than enough light to make HDR look great. Would even consider dialing down your iris to increase contrast since you have headroom. Remember, HDR isn't about being bright, it is about increased dynamic range. You can't make a projector look like a flat panel, but going too bright can compromise the range you have available to the image. 



SJHT said:


> Two options that I can think of:
> 1. Call dealer and they walk you through updating the settings. Not too bad really depending on the changes. Kris Deering recently did this for me.
> 2. Download your configuration. Email the file to your dealer. They update and send it back. You would have to upload back into your Pro. Not really much different then updating firmware.


Speaking of which, once you move to the new firmware we need to tweak your settings! 



Ash Sharma said:


> Hope you release it this week as my Lumagen Install is on Monday by Adam Peltz and it will be great that he can install the latest version on my Sony VW5000 - Kaleidescape Mix which looks to be most problematic.
> 
> On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Your dealer or someone else should be able to help you remotely when it comes to updating settings. That is part of supporting a product. At a minimum they should familiarize you with how to do firmware updates or how to download your profile so they can work on it remotely.


----------



## audioguy

Ash Sharma said:


> On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Craig Rounds did my calibration and after I installed the new update, he walked me through (via phone) which buttons to push on the remote to make the necessary changes.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> While 50 nits does present limitations in overall brightness, you should be able to get a nice looking image without any artifacts. I offer remote setup/tweaking of the Lumagen so am available if you need help.


Thanks, Kris. Noted. 

The image in my bat cave is generally stunning, even with the limited brightness (still ~14fL, so plenty bright for me) depending on the source, of course. Lumagen, as always, has been the key that unlocks the best possible image.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Speaking of which, once you move to the new firmware we need to tweak your settings!


Just updated. Picture looks great. I’ve been using the 4K HDR movie Hunter Killer. The dark underwater sub scenes are really difficult but handled well with DTM... SJ


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> Stability issues definitely sound Sony related. I installed the latest on several JVC's over the weekend and used it on mine with zero issues. I have one client that had an issue with a JVC so far, others haven't said a peep. I'm sure Jim and Pat will have a look soon to try and dial in the FPGA a bit more.


Hence my question on also having a Sony PJ to test with.
Sony and JVC are the majority used those also having a Radiance, so it makes sense to have a test device available.

Additionally it would allow tuning tips to be provided by Lumagen.
Just saying, doesn't have to be a 5000 

-roland


----------



## A7mad78

I’d love to thank @Krisdeering for his great service to dial up my DTM setup before the DTM I was happy with the result that I have from the IM very happy but when the DTM arrive got a conflict between good and bad image so from this thread I reach kris and provide the right info he need he made the right modification and send back the file and every thing has change and I play the scenes that I was not happy with and really his service is outstanding 

Now I can setback and enjoy 

also I want to thanks @GordonFraser he is the man how let me enter the world of lumagen 

@Kris Deering
@Gordon Fraser 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## baseball0618

Craig Peer said:


> Watched “ Shazam “ tonight on 4K Blu-ray. The picture was jaw dropping good and DTM worked extremely well. Your calibration Kris is outstanding! No issues here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Craig are you still using laser dimming?


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> For projectors for the recent DTM release we ended up with results such that you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value. If you change Ratio, the HDR Mapping->Max Light is not the effective value. So leave Ratio = 0 unless you have a good reason not to. The best multiple varies based on personal taste, but this is a good starting point.
> 
> Note that if you have a "light cannon" and are getting, say, 400 nits, you will likely want to drop this to about 3X. However, I cannot afford a Light Cannon to get 400 nits on our 14 foot diagonal screen, and so this is an estimate.
> 
> Press OK to accept and then Save your changes.
> 
> Remember changes to CMS1->HDR Mapping affect all inputs and input memories at factory settings since it is an Output CMS menu and all inputs and all input memories point to CMS1 for HDR source by default.
> 
> ======
> 
> For the Low Set Ratio, set it to about 2 times your measured light output. For our RS4500 at 85 nits, with Max Light = 350, I need to set Ratio to 20 to approximate an Effective Display Max Light of about 170. A Ratio of 20 cuts the Effective Light in about half of the Max Light if High-set Ratio = 0. The default of 15 is roughly 0.6 * Max Light for Low-set effective Display Max Light, which also works well.
> 
> To figure out the Effective Max Light for the Low Set, go to the "left arrow" parameter menu, and make sure it is showing the Low-set. This is reported on the bottom line. Or if you are not sure, if you have not made an adjustment you can know this since Ratio defaults to 15 for the Low-set and 0 for the High-set. Then turn DTM Off temporarily, and go to the Ratio column.
> 
> When you are on the Ratio column in Static mode the line below the Ratio number shows the "effective display max light" value after taking into account the Ratio. Wish we had made this an add/subtract to make it easy to calculate but it is a change to the Ratio, but we didn't. So you have to go to Static mode to see the effective Display Max Light. Once adjusted, again enable DTM. Press OK to accept any changes.
> 
> Remember the parameter menu is an input menu. So it applies to one input and one input memory. If you have multiple sources you need copy to inputs and/or input memories you want to propagate the changes to. Save your changes.
> 
> =======
> 
> After viewing some material you may choose to make changes to the above. Certainly reasonable since this is going to vary to some degree based on personal preference. However for projectors in the 70 to 140 nit range I believe this is a excellent starting point and you may well agree with me that they are good final settings.
> 
> =======
> 
> I have do more work to do to get my recommendations for TVs updated. I am planning to buy an OLED to have in the Lumagen Demo Theater to compare DTM results using our RS4500 image versus the OLED, and to come up with some better recommendations for bright TVs. Not sure when this will happen but stay tuned.





jrp said:


> We are working on a new update to the DTM release.
> 
> Note that from a Tone Mapping perspective 071919, 072019, and 072119 are identical. The only changes were to remove some unwanted debug code. With the debug code left in the release (071919, 072019) you might have seen some bad frame flips, or screen tearing, but the processing is the same.
> 
> =====
> 
> After my post on comparing STM to DTM, we investigated why STM was brighter than DTM, when this should not have been the case. The fact that Static Tone Mapping (STM) was brighter than Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) in these three release was due to some DTM code being active in STM. This was making STM incorrectly brighter by effectively reducing the Max Light value. While a specific scene looked brighter and so some might have thought it looked better, if one analysed a lot of content the user would have increased Max Light to optimize different content and negated the incorrect brightness increase. DTM should always be as bright (bright scenes near the STM MaxCLL) or brighter (dark scenes) since the scene's MaxCLL is lower than, or equal to, the movies MaxCLL. We will have this correction in the next release.
> 
> =====
> 
> In a previous post I mentioned the Low-set "effective Display Max Light" being set to approximately two times the measured nits of the projector, and the CMS1 Max Light being set to approximately four times the measured nits (with High-set Ratio = 0). This was based on a lot of evaluation by myself, Kris Deering and others. After my recommendation post Kris did a lot more evaluation on content with 072119. Based on his results the Low-Set recommendation is the same, but we are changing the CMS1 "Max Light" multiplier recommendation to "in the range of four to eight times the measured light in nits." This requires some further explanation.
> 
> With the CMS1 Max Light at four times the measured light, images are brighter than at an eight times multiple. In contrast the eight times multiple, while darker, preserves more color saturation in bright objects. This can improve the detail in bright saturated colors. So this means user preference comes into play choosing to either maximize brightness, or maximize bright color saturation, or balance these two objectives. I have increased our Demo Theater multiple to about five after doing more evaluation, and I think Kris is liking the Max Light multiple of around eight.
> 
> =====
> 
> The next release will have a few other improvements for scenes Kris found. So it will be even better than the previous 072119 release.





jrp said:


> Concerning comments on removing Shape and Transition:
> 
> We have for several months been considering adding an "Expert" mode for HDR tone mapping now that we have Dynamic Tone Mapping working so well. With Static Tone Mapping all the control parameters made sense to expose to allow users to tweak the settings for different movies. Now with DTM both Kris and I are finding that changing them does not improve the image quality and can certainly hurt image quality poorly adjusted when using DTM.
> 
> As an aside DTM is now at the stage that we are recommending you set DLev = 8. This ignores the Static Metadata for DTM. This helps improve dark scenes like those in Blade Runner 2049 since blending with the STM MaxCLL is not holding the scene MaxCLL up to a higher level and preventing the scene from getting as dark as it should.
> 
> Note that a slight change to Shape or Tran can help a particular scene, but it would then hurt other content. We are finding the defaults give excellent image quality for all content. For an Expert Mode we would not remove the settings, but would only show them in Expert Mode to prevent those who do not know how they work from hurting image quality.
> 
> We will likely change the default Low-set Ratio to 24 based on a typical projector and what we are seeing with the current DTM implementation. However, 15 still looks excellent and gives a bit more headroom for dark scenes, but 24 gives a brighter image (to an appropriate level for dark scenes IMO).
> 
> Several have noted now that DTM settings required are only CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light (for very bright scenes), and the Low-set Ratio (to adjust effective-display-max-light for dark scenes). We agree with this assessment.
> 
> If we add the expert mode, the defaults would be (as of today):
> 
> - Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu as it is now. Set by user
> - Low-Set Ratio in the left parameter menu. Shows effective-max-light. Set by user
> - DTM would always be on (but not shown). No reason to use STM anymore
> - DLev = 8 (but not shown)
> - Ratio = 24 for Low-set (shown), and 0 for High-set (not shown)
> - Shape = current defaults (not shown)
> - Tran = current defaults (not shown)
> - Gamma = 0 (not shown)
> - Black = 0 (not shown)
> - Crossover value is not used for DTM (not shown)
> - Default Max is not needed for DTM (not shown)
> 
> In "Expert mode" we would likely have the same look as in the current release.
> 
> Not in a rush to do this but it makes sense.
> 
> ===============
> 
> I gave some suggestions for Max Light and Low-Set Effective Max Light in a previous post. Those still hold but we have refined the suggestions as shown below. Note that the following recommendations are for projectors:
> 
> Enable DTM
> 
> Set DLev = 8
> 
> Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation
> 
> Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column
> 
> Leave other HDR Tone Mapping parameters at default values.
> 
> =======
> 
> As a side note, I had Max Light at 350 to 400, and Low-set Ratio = 15, for STM, and now for DTM I have Max Light = 350 to 400 and Ratio = 24 (but 15 still looks excellent). So while you might want to tweak Tone Mapping parameters I believe we have met our goal of "no required changes" from the STM settings for excellent performance with DTM. I know this audience will want to tweak, but I can assure our non-tweak customers that they do not need to change any Tone Mapping settings to get excellent results with DTM.
> 
> =======
> 
> I am planning to work with our LG OLED and hopefully come up with some recommendations for TVs.
> 
> =======
> 
> Again, thanks for all the praise for the new DTM version. We are thrilled with how positive the comments are. And for those with issues for the 080919 release, we hope to have a release with an improved FPGA this week.


Here are Jim's recent posts about DTM, all in one place.

You're welcome. 

Mark


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> With the output Colorspace = HDR2020, you are doing tone mapping twice (in the Pro and the in projector/TV). This is not a good situation.
> 
> However, some have made it work but turning down the projector/TV tone mapping and setting Max Light to the 2000 to 3000 range. If you do not turn down the projector/TV tone mapping you really need the Max Light at 10000 - the full HDR range since that is likely what the projector/TV is assuming.
> 
> If you can turn the projector/TV's tone mapping down enough to be able to use Max Light in the 2000 range the Pro can do some tone mapping for content mastered to 3000 nits and higher.
> 
> That said there are some tricks you can do with a calibration to partially diminsh the projector/TV's tone mapping. I have some ideas I plan to test (just bought a LG OLED for this and other testing). Kris Deering has some tricks for this case as well that he could do if you hire him to calibrate.
> 
> In general projectors should have output Colorspace = SDR2020. If a TV does not allow the same light output for SDR input mode as for HDR input mode, it may be best to set Pro output Colorspace = HDR2020. In this case you might find double tone mapping to have issues and the only choice then would be to turn off the Radiance Pro tone mapping and use the TVs tone mapping. Or the above balancing the Pro and TV tone mapping may work best. If you are like many and are happy with the light output of your TV in SDR2020 mode, then you would set up as I have discussed, as shown in the Radiance Pro manual and the set-up slide set.


Thanks for the input, Jim.

I do have the 2017 LG's Dynamic Tone Mapping feature (called Dynamic Contrast on this TV) set to "Off". I don't know how to turn off the static tone mapping on the TV. I do remember everyone say not to touch the OLED light setting, as it affects the tone mapping. I am eagerly awaiting your OLED recommendations, now that you have one.

The measured max white light for my panel is 613 Nits, so if we go by your projector recommendations, setting CMS Max Light to 6X would be 3,678 Nits. I will try this next time I am watching the set just to see how it looks.

Mark


----------



## GregCh

I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.

Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?

Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve? 

I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.

Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)

I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.


----------



## thrang

Thanks Kris for assisting with my machinations and ruminations regarding the latest firmware, and to Jim and Patrick for the significant improvements.


----------



## JOE-C

GregCh said:


> I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.
> 
> Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?
> 
> Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?
> 
> I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.
> 
> Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)
> 
> I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.


I have a 4500/DCR lens/ Lumagen Pro combo. I know it’s not the 2000 or 3000 but it’s similar. 
I was reluctant to spend the money to purchase the Lumagen also.
I finally did and the DTM alone is worth the price ( not to mention the incredible company support as they keep improving it).
To top it off I had Kris Deering come and calibrate my projector ( using both auto cal and the Lumagen ) and he set up my Lumagen to auto select the aspect ratio along with SDR and HDR. The Lumagen basically is “ plug and play” now. I basically just select something to watch and hit play.
The picture is absolutely incredible- I keep appreciating it more every time I watch.
I would highly recommend if you do decide to buy it you get in touch with Kris (he has a 3000) or someone else who knows how to calibrate and set it up ( not sure where you are located) to get the most out of your purchases ( projector and Lumagen).
There really is nothing quite like a professional calibration by a highly capable calibrator ( well worth the extra expense).
I have to say the Lumagen is one of the best video purchases I’ve ever made if not the best.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

GregCh said:


> I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.
> 
> Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?
> 
> Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?
> 
> I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.
> 
> Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)
> 
> I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.



Once set up the Lumagen will recognise the incoming signal type and will automatically optimise the image for dynamic range and colour fidelity for the display system. 



The Lumagen does the tone mapping and can send several different colourspaces to the display. Whether it would be SDR2020 depends on the method the calibrator or installer chooses to use in your specific system. The JVC would not be using any HDR EOTF. It would be on an SDR style preset with gamma 2.4


As to value for money. Well , that is a personal thing and it is different for different folk. I can say that the very first N9 i did in UK i spent several hours optimising the calibration of the projector for the client, then afterwards he asked if could show him what the Radiance Pro did ( i was not there to install a Pro, only to do calibration). The clients jaw hit the floor and he was stunned at the difference. As i left he asked me to tell him the soonest i could return to install a unit for him. So for him there was an obvious cost to performance benefit. This is not an uncommon scenario for me.


Gordon


----------



## bobof

GregCh said:


> Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale *and motion process* those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)


Just a note that from what I understand there isn't any motion processing of note in the Lumagen available to a 1080p signal. That sort of thing usually is best done in the display as quite often there is black frame insertion, panel drive tweaks and other things which you can't do over HDMI and rely on knowledge of the particular display tech.


----------



## Yoxxy

GregCh said:


> I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.
> 
> Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?
> 
> Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?
> 
> I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.
> 
> Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)
> 
> I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.


Yes it is worth it on my RS2000. As far as your questions on signal detection, you just need to change inputs. I had been running with multiple controls for a long time as I hated my harmony. Finally broke down to program a harmony. Switch from PS4 (4k) -> Switch (1080p) -> Shield (4K/1080p and multiple color spaces) is painless.


----------



## msleb

msleb said:


> Does anybody have experience using the Lumagen auto aspect function with a Control4 set up? My needs are fairly simple. Currently I do not use auto aspect, and when I am watching a 2.35 aspect ratio movie I use the Control4 remote to activate a macro, which zooms my Sony 5000 lens and removes my masking panels. When I am watching a 1.78 aspect ratio movie I use the Control4 remote, manually, to activate another macro, which zooms out the Sony 5000 lens and puts the side masking panels back in place.
> 
> This isn’t exactly a hardship, but it would be nice to use a serial cable between the radiance Pro and the Control4 HC 800 to automate this process. Is this easy to do? Or, to put it another way, does the Control4 serial driver allow use of a customized macro?
> 
> I have seen other posts that are several years old that say the serial driver is limited and to stack and IP driver on top of the serial driver, but I am not entirely clear how that would work. Any help would be appreciated!


anyone?


----------



## audioguy

msleb said:


> anyone?


I have Control4 and just tried (temporarily) Auto Aspect Detection - but I have them as mutually exclusive. What I was looking for was two things: (1) I use a Nvidia Shield/Plex for watching my ripped movies and it's menus are 16x9, However, when I select that input on my C4, it sets the Lumagen to 2:35 and opens my masks. Auto Aspect fixed that; (2) most movie menu screens are also 16x9 and I had the same issue. AA fixed that as well.

Mind you, I have just played around with it and I did not save the settings. The only thing that integrating AA with C4 would do would be to allow me to close or open the masks when AA said to do so. But I don't want that to happen. I just need to be able to see everything that is on the screen. At first blush, it seems to work.

What I don't want is for AA to start changing aspects mid movie and I don't know if there is a way to control that. As I said, just experimenting. But so far, so good!!


----------



## Wookii

audioguy said:


> What I don't want is for AA to start changing aspects mid movie and I don't know if there is a way to control that. As I said, just experimenting. But so far, so good!!


You need to enable the 'Sticky Aspect Override' control Chuck. That means when you get a multi-AR movie, you manually press the aspect ratio you want it to stay in, and it 'sticks' for the remainder the movie until the Input is reselected.


----------



## msleb

audioguy said:


> I have Control4 and just tried (temporarily) Auto Aspect Detection - but I have them as mutually exclusive. What I was looking for was two things: (1) I use a Nvidia Shield/Plex for watching my ripped movies and it's menus are 16x9, However, when I select that input on my C4, it sets the Lumagen to 2:35 and opens my masks. Auto Aspect fixed that; (2) most movie menu screens are also 16x9 and I had the same issue. AA fixed that as well.
> 
> Mind you, I have just played around with it and I did not save the settings. The only thing that integrating AA with C4 would do would be to allow me to close or open the masks when AA said to do so. But I don't want that to happen. I just need to be able to see everything that is on the screen. At first blush, it seems to work.
> 
> What I don't want is for AA to start changing aspects mid movie and I don't know if there is a way to control that. As I said, just experimenting. But so far, so good!!


Got it, thanks- so, you are using a serial cable to connect Lumagen to C4, and using the serial driver? Did you stack the IP driver on top of it? In order to open your masks, do you use a macro? In other words, does the Lumagen/C4 serial driver allow you to point to a macro?


----------



## audioguy

Wookii said:


> You need to enable the 'Sticky Aspect Override' control Chuck. That means when you get a multi-AR movie, you manually press the aspect ratio you want it to stay in, and it 'sticks' for the remainder the movie until the Input is reselected.


So after the movie itself starts and switches from 16x9 to 2:35 (via AA), I then select the desired aspect (after enabling 'Sticky Aspect Override') and it stays in that format? That works. And in 95%++ of the cases, even if I were to forget that, it would make no difference since most don't change aspects.

Thanks (yet again) for your assistance. Very helpful.


----------



## audioguy

msleb said:


> Got it, thanks- so, you are using a serial cable to connect Lumagen to C4, and using the serial driver? Did you stack the IP driver on top of it? In order to open your masks, do you use a macro? In other words, does the Lumagen/C4 serial driver allow you to point to a macro?


First of all, I did not do the C4 programming. Atlanta Home Theater did so. My masks are controlled (and have been way before a Lumagen showed up) via an IR output from the C4 controller. So, for example, when I select my Shield, the masks open and the Lumagen (previously the projector) switches to 2:35 format. When I select my DishTV, it closes the masks and changes the AR to 16x9. I have my C4 system connected to my Amazon Alexa so I usually change aspects and masks (and lights and sources and ..) by voice command. Then I don't have to worry about finding my remote! My primary use of the C4 remote is volume control.

As for the connection from the C4 controller to my Lumagen, that was initially done via just IR but the last time they were here, they attached serial cable between them. I did not ask why but if you want me to, I can call and find out.


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> First of all, I did not do the C4 programming. Atlanta Home Theater did so. My masks are controlled (and have been way before a Lumagen showed up) via an IR output from the C4 controller. So, for example, when I select my Shield, the masks open and the Lumagen (previously the projector) switches to 2:35 format. When I select my DishTV, it closes the masks and changes the AR to 16x9. I have my C4 system connected to my Amazon Alexa so I usually change aspects and masks (and lights and sources and ..) by voice command. Then I don't have to worry about finding my remote! My primary use of the C4 remote is volume control.
> 
> As for the connection from the C4 controller to my Lumagen, that was initially done via just IR but the last time they were here, they attached serial cable between them. I did not ask why but if you want me to, I can call and find out.


RS232 can be 2-way and IR is 1-way. So RS232 is more robust. So fewer errors when sending a signal.


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> RS232 can be 2-way and IR is 1-way. So RS232 is more robust. So fewer errors when sending a signal.


Thanks. Iwas aware of that. 2 theaters ago, I did my own Crestron programming. I was a programmer for the first 5 or 6 years when I got out of college and while this was 30 or 40 years after the fact, it was fun. But when we moved, I chose to spend my time elsewhere (like making .1dB changes in a target curve ) so I am totally out of the loop on how this is all being done. I just call them and send money !


----------



## dlinsley

GregCh said:


> I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.


One small thing to add in terms of increased usability even without a control system, is that the Radiance can still send the HDR flag even when outputting SDR2020. You can then set the JVC to switch to any preset you want when that flag is present, for example one with the BT2020 or HDR colorspace but with a 2.4 gamma and iris at 0. This simplifies things considerably, with no need for macros. If only JVC would add similar capability when 3D is detected.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> One small thing to add in terms of increased usability even without a control system, is that the Radiance can still send the HDR flag even when outputting SDR2020. You can then set the JVC to switch to any preset you want when that flag is present, for example one with the BT2020 or HDR colorspace but with a 2.4 gamma and iris at 0. This simplifies things considerably, with no need for macros. If only JVC would add similar capability when 3D is detected.


For 3D, you can implement it yourself quite simply with a control system (or raspberry PI in my case). The same V2 notification string that has the aspect ratio information also indicates if the input is 3D, and you can then switch the JVC PJ over IP to whatever mode you want. I do this for both HDR and 3D on my X7900 (which has only a limited set of modes that can be selected by the HDR flag, so it's not as useful as you might think on those units)


----------



## beastaudio

First and foremost, there is way too much positivity and stellar reviews of this lumagen thingy going on around here. It's making people like me want one even at the expense of my perfectly happy marriage...




Craig Peer said:


> Hard to say since I only have one movie under my belt. Basically I just had a full system re-calibration, so you could say everything got tweaked !  One thing I did not have setup that Kris did to the Lumagen is the auto aspect detection - which is very cool !


I almost think this, for scope screen peeps is the most valuable feature of the entire unit!!!



BrolicBeast said:


> Ash, I'm covering this in a YouTube video...already shot. Just need to edit the content.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I thought I had already seen the video with the AA stuff going? Did you take it down to edit further?


My next question for the masses is in regards to a previously calibrated PJ. If you already have some custom profiles done, and then subsequently put the lumagen in the chain, does it then make those previous calibrations defunct? I wouldn't think so since they should be calibrated to reference....except with HDR since instead of an HDR calibrated mode you'd be using the standard gamma 2.4 with the lumagen? You could almost conceivably map over the regular rec709 1080p calibration to another custom profile, add in the bt2020 color filter and then you are good for 4K/HDR? I guess I am just a little confused by that part... (FWIW if I were to get one of these guys, I would use Kris or Craig's expertise for pre-setup).


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> I thought I had already seen the video with the AA stuff going? Did you take it down to edit further?


There are two videos in which covered NLS from 7 years ago....this new one touches on Auto-Aspect setup w/ NLS engaged, along with DTM setup, on/off comparisons, and some other things.


----------



## beastaudio

BrolicBeast said:


> There are two videos in which covered NLS from 7 years ago....this new one touches on Auto-Aspect setup w/ NLS engaged, along with DTM setup, on/off comparisons, and some other things.


NLS? Sorry, I'm a little dense today...


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> For 3D, you can implement it yourself quite simply with a control system (or raspberry PI in my case). The same V2 notification string that has the aspect ratio information also indicates if the input is 3D, and you can then switch the JVC PJ over IP to whatever mode you want. I do this for both HDR and 3D on my X7900 (which has only a limited set of modes that can be selected by the HDR flag, so it's not as useful as you might think on those units)


Absolutely, which is why I mentioned event without a control system it was a nice benefit. A Vertex can also be used as a relatively cheap option, that doesn't require much technical skills. I also plan on the Pi system when I build my masking system - your previous talks on your Python script have made a big impression on me - but one of these days it might be a fun project to start with a Vertex "replacement" and put together a supply list and GitHub project for a Pi Zero W distribution that you just configure your JVC IP address and it switches the modes. I may have talked myself into doing that, but then it might take as long as Gordon's Lightspace guide :-O


----------



## bobof

beastaudio said:


> I almost think this, for scope screen peeps is the most valuable feature of the entire unit!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My next question for the masses is in regards to a previously calibrated PJ. If you already have some custom profiles done, and then subsequently put the lumagen in the chain, does it then make those previous calibrations defunct? I wouldn't think so since they should be calibrated to reference....except with HDR since instead of an HDR calibrated mode you'd be using the standard gamma 2.4 with the lumagen?


AA is awesome if you have a scope screen, doubly so if you have masking. I love it in my setup.

You should be able to still use your existing Rec709 calibration, but you may not want to. Calibrations done in a projectors own CMS are usually a compromise as the controls rarely allow you to get a truly reference calibration throughout the gamut for all saturation and luminance levels. So often they'll target the more used 75% points and accept compromise at the 100%, for example. And though you might have pretty base graphs of t he primaries at 75%, say, if you plot the whole gamut in 3D after such a calibration you will often find areas of significant over or under saturation, maybe hue shifts, etc. 

With a Lumagen the optimum calibration is a 3DLUT calibration. For that the start condition is usually finding the display mode which is most linear and best covers the target gamut (often not the same mode you might use for a manual calibration), and then using Pro tools like Lightspace to generate a super clean 3DLUT from a profile of the entire gamut. This corrects in 3D and has much better results where accuracy is concerned. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Absolutely, which is why I mentioned event without a control system it was a nice benefit. A Vertex can also be used as a relatively cheap option, that doesn't require much technical skills. I also plan on the Pi system when I build my masking system - your previous talks on your Python script have made a big impression on me - but one of these days it might be a fun project to start with a Vertex "replacement" and put together a supply list and GitHub project for a Pi Zero W distribution that you just configure your JVC IP address and it switches the modes. I may have talked myself into doing that, but then it might take as long as Gordon's Lightspace guide :-O


I think I shared a version of the AA script a while ago; it is due a bit of a tweak as I don't think I uploaded the mode script. When I do I will post it up. I don't have much interest at the moment in making it a neat project as once it works I tend to lose interest until the next thing... At the moment playing with patch set sorting for optimal drift free OLED profiling... (don't even have an Oled... D'oh!). Mostly in the interest of having interesting problems to solve while learning Python, instead of canned examples. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

bobof said:


> AA is awesome if you have a scope screen, doubly so if you have masking. I love it in my setup.
> 
> You should be able to still use your existing Rec709 calibration, but you may not want to. Calibrations done in a projectors own CMS are usually a compromise as the controls rarely allow you to get a truly reference calibration throughout the gamut for all saturation and luminance levels. So often they'll target the more used 75% points and accept compromise at the 100%, for example. And though you might have pretty base graphs of t he primaries at 75%, say, if you plot the whole gamut in 3D after such a calibration you will often find areas of significant over or under saturation, maybe hue shifts, etc.
> 
> With a Lumagen the optimum calibration is a 3DLUT calibration. For that the start condition is usually finding the display mode which is most linear and best covers the target gamut (often not the same mode you might use for a manual calibration), and then using Pro tools like Lightspace to generate a super clean 3DLUT from a profile of the entire gamut. This corrects in 3D and has much better results where accuracy is concerned.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


Thanks for that. Considering my own inability to do any of the above mentioned work however, and would have to stick with the existing calibration at least for a while, it would still be beneficial to use these custom calibrated profiles up to the point where a new calibration using the lumagen would replace it though correct? I should still get better results via this method than just resorting back to one of the stock profiles?


----------



## bobof

beastaudio said:


> Thanks for that. Considering my own inability to do any of the above mentioned work however, and would have to stick with the existing calibration at least for a while, it would still be beneficial to use these custom calibrated profiles up to the point where a new calibration using the lumagen would replace it though correct? I should still get better results via this method than just resorting back to one of the stock profiles?


Yes, for SDR you'd just use your calibrated Rec709 profile if you have one. For HDR if you have had the profiles set up properly you might be able to just switch the HDR profile to Gamma 2.4 and then do the tone mapping in the Lumagen using DTM.

You won't have any significant benefit for SDR (except perhaps scaling gains, and Darbee for 1080p sources if you like that, perhaps deinterlacing for 1080i) but For HDR the benefit from tone mapping should be significant. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## BrolicBeast

beastaudio said:


> NLS? Sorry, I'm a little dense today...


No prob! It's Non-Linear Stretch! 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## beastaudio

bobof said:


> Yes, for SDR you'd just use your calibrated Rec709 profile if you have one. For HDR if you have had the profiles set up properly you might be able to just switch the HDR profile to Gamma 2.4 and then do the tone mapping in the Lumagen using DTM.
> 
> You won't have any significant benefit for SDR (except perhaps scaling gains, and Darbee for 1080p sources if you like that, perhaps deinterlacing for 1080i) but For HDR the benefit from tone mapping should be significant.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


Lumagen has Darbee tech in it too? Good to know.



BrolicBeast said:


> No prob! It's Non-Linear Stretch!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Boom Duh. Thx bud.


----------



## audioguy

beastaudio said:


> Thanks for that. Considering my own inability to do any of the above mentioned work however, and would have to stick with the existing calibration at least for a while, it would still be beneficial to use these custom calibrated profiles up to the point where a new calibration using the lumagen would replace it though correct? I should still get better results via this method than just resorting back to one of the stock profiles?


Get the Lumagen and buy from Craig, Kris, or someone else that does Calibrations as they typically offer these as a package deal. In my case, I purchased from Craig and he told me how to set up DTM but using my existing ChadB settings. Then when he and i could coordinate the time where he could come (and I had the $$), he came and re-did everything.

PM will be sent!!


----------



## LGJr

Should HDR flag be set to on when using LG e7 oled?


----------



## *Harry*

beastaudio said:


> Lumagen has Darbee tech in it too? Good to know.


... and in addition it will get its own picture sharpening + denoise function (maybe still in 2019 ? )


----------



## Eventidal

And pincushion correction?!

:


----------



## giomania

LGJr said:


> Should HDR flag be set to on when using LG e7 oled?




If you are sending HDR2020, The flag is on by default. Are you sending SDR2020?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## msleb

Mike Garrett said:


> RS232 can be 2-way and IR is 1-way. So RS232 is more robust. So fewer errors when sending a signal.





audioguy said:


> Thanks. Iwas aware of that. 2 theaters ago, I did my own Crestron programming. I was a programmer for the first 5 or 6 years when I got out of college and while this was 30 or 40 years after the fact, it was fun. But when we moved, I chose to spend my time elsewhere (like making .1dB changes in a target curve ) so I am totally out of the loop on how this is all being done. I just call them and send money !


Thanks Audioguy and Mike-
Im still not clear on whether I need to stack drivers (ie serial and IP), or if the Lumagen C4 serial driver (plus the serial cable to connect Lumagen to C4 HC800) is all I need. Currently I have the Lumagen set to output everything at 1.78 AR-- even 2.35/2.40 AR films. 

If I am watching a 2.35 AR film I manually select a macro that I created in C4 which (a) Tells the masking panels to open up and (b) tells the Sony 5000 to zoom the lens (to a preset I created) such that the black bars are now outside of the screen area and the film now fills my screen.

And, when I go back to 16:9 AR film/TV I activate a different macro which closes masking panels and unzooms the lens to the other preset.

It's simple enough to press the remote macro once in the beginning of each movie so I dont want to jump through hoops just to avoid doing that, but I'm a sucker for automation...

So, do you know if I just need the C4 serial driver and the serial cable and somehow point to a macro? Or, since I have the Lumagen output everything at 1.78 am I not able to take advantage of Auto Aspect Ratio?


----------



## RickAVManiac

*Harry* said:


> beastaudio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen has Darbee tech in it too? Good to know.
> 
> 
> 
> ... and in addition it will get its own picture sharpening + denoise function (maybe still in 2019 ? )
> /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

That will be great. 

I know the focus is presently on DTM and it’s a good thing but yesterday I test the Radiance Pro with some of my favorites 1080p blu ray and the result is impressive. 

Another reason to justify the cost, my blu ray never have look that good. The Radiance Pro upscaling join with a bit of Darbee processing give the upscale picture a very natural, sharp looking image. Cleary better than letting my projector or media player do the upscale to 4k. I love to watch new HDR titles on my Pro but still many of my movies are in 1080p and I guess many of them will never have a HDR transfer, so having the Radiance Pro upscale 4k with Darbee processing is the next best thing for me...


----------



## Craig Peer

RickAVManiac said:


> That will be great.
> 
> I know the focus is presently on DTM and it’s a good thing but yesterday I test the Radiance Pro with some of my favorites 1080p blu ray and the result is impressive.
> 
> Another reason to justify the cost, my blu ray never have look that good. The Radiance Pro upscaling join with a bit of Darbee processing give the upscale picture a very natural, sharp looking image. Cleary better than letting my projector or media player do the upscale to 4k. I love to watch new HDR titles on my Pro but still many of my movies are in 1080p and I guess many of them will never have a HDR transfer, so having the Radiance Pro upscale 4k with Darbee processing is the next best thing for me...


Blu-rays can look amazing upscaled with the Lumagen to 4K. You're right - lots of my favorite films on Blu-ray will probably never see a 4K release, but when they look as good as they do, I can live with that.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> Blu-rays can look amazing upscaled with the Lumagen to 4K. You're right - lots of my favorite films on Blu-ray will probably never see a 4K release, but when they look as good as they do, I can live with that.


Are you using Darbee?


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Are you using Darbee?


Good question, since I turned Darbee off at one point, but Kris re-set the Radiance Pro and set it up from scratch. But unless something is different in the Lumagen, I thought Darbee didn't work with 4K. I'm sending 4K from my UB820 and Oppo 203 ( 3840 x 2160 ) and upscaling to 4096 x 2160 if it's scope. Does Darbee work with 4K in a Radiance Pro? I think not.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> Good question, since I turned Darbee off at one point, but Kris re-set the Radiance Pro and set it up from scratch. But unless something is different in the Lumagen, I thought Darbee didn't work with 4K. I'm sending 4K from my UB820 and Oppo 203 ( 3840 x 2160 ) and upscaling to 4096 x 2160 if it's scope. Does Darbee work with 4K in a Radiance Pro? I think not.


I was asking about using it with 1080P stuff?


----------



## mikela

RickAVManiac said:


> Another reason to justify the cost, my blu ray never have look that good. The Radiance Pro upscaling join with a bit of Darbee processing give the upscale picture a very natural, sharp looking image. Cleary better than letting my projector or media player do the upscale to 4k.


Sounds interesting. Never tried that. I will have to give this a go. I normally upscale my 1080p collection with madVR.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I was asking about using it with 1080P stuff?


I don't really watch any 1080p stuff except rarely cable TV. 99% of what I watch is either Blu-rays ( upscaled to 4K by the 4K Blu-ray player ) or 4K Blu-rays.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> I don't really watch any 1080p stuff except rarely cable TV. 99% of what I watch is either Blu-rays ( upscaled to 4K by the 4K Blu-ray player ) or 4K Blu-rays.


BluRays are 1080P. But you have the player up convert to 4K vs the Lumagen?


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> BluRays are 1080P. But you have the player up convert to 4K vs the Lumagen?


If you use a Panasonic UB820 ( or UB900 or perhaps the UB9000 ) and it sees your display is 4K, it will upscale automatically. It's not really a problem. The Lumagen upscales that to 4096 for use with the DCR lens. Works fine. Kris thought it looked excellent. The Oppo could use native or upscale to 4K. I can't see a difference personally. Once again, for scope, the Lumagen upscales that to 4096 for the DCR lens. There would be some might fine hair splitting to see much difference in my opinion.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Craig Peer said:


> Good question, since I turned Darbee off at one point, but Kris re-set the Radiance Pro and set it up from scratch. But unless something is different in the Lumagen, I thought Darbee didn't work with 4K. I'm sending 4K from my UB820 and Oppo 203 ( 3840 x 2160 ) and upscaling to 4096 x 2160 if it's scope. Does Darbee work with 4K in a Radiance Pro? I think not.


I am surprised you do not have the Oppo set for source direct, so that the Lumagen upscales 1080P to 4K. That is why I pulled the UB9000 from my HT system and put the Oppo 203 back in. Will use the Panasonic with my RS640 in the media room.


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike Garrett said:


> I am surprised you do not have the Oppo set for source direct, so that the Lumagen upscales 1080P to 4K. That is why I pulled the UB9000 from my HT system and put the Oppo 203 back in. Will use the Panasonic with my RS640 in the media room.


For all practical purposes I haven't seen an advantage to doing that ( it doesn't look any better that way IMO ). And I had an instance or two of it not wanting to sync that way. And the Oppo doesn't look better to me than the UB820 either. We are back to splitting hairs. I'm not a big fan of Darbee processing either. It can make things look over processed.


----------



## scrowe

Mike Garrett said:


> I am surprised you do not have the Oppo set for source direct, so that the Lumagen upscales 1080P to 4K. That is why I pulled the UB9000 from my HT system and put the Oppo 203 back in. Will use the Panasonic with my RS640 in the media room.


With the Lumagen you just set a BD versus UHD memory with 1080p max input, and the UB9000 or 820 on automatic res. This forces the Panny to output 1080p automatically on that memory and let’s the Lumagen take care of the full scaling to 4k.


----------



## GerryWaz

New firmware available to try for those of us with video issues from the last release:


*Beta 081019- *_Posted 082319_ A new FPGA version from rev 080919 fixes issues seen in many systems with getting picture and other video issues. Software identical to 080919.
*
*
It fixed my issues. 



Thank you, Jim and Pat, for the quick release. *
*


----------



## thebland

*HDMI ISSUES *

I am having connection issues to my Sony 5000 from my 4242 9 gHz outt. I am using 2M Velox cables. What is cable of choice for HDMI handshake issues. Can’t get 4K signal to sync. Only 1080P. Any ideas here?


----------



## A7mad78

thebland said:


> *HDMI ISSUES *
> 
> 
> 
> I am having connection issues to my Sony 5000 from my 4242 9 gHz outt. I am using 2M Velox cables. What is cable of choice for HDMI handshake issues. Can’t get 4K signal to sync. Only 1080P. Any ideas here?




For me I change all my cable to Pixelgen and all the problem resolve got some time handshaking in APTV but easy resolve oppo and k-scape zero problem i got 4242 pro 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

*Auto Aspect Detection*

I had tried AA once and I liked it a lot but did not save the settings. I decided to re-implement it but now I can't get it to work. Here are my settings:

Auto Aspect Control = HDMI
Sticky Aspect Override = On
NLS when applicable = Off
Letterbox zoom = Norm

What am I doing wrong or not doing?

Thanks


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> I had tried AA once and I liked it a lot but did not save the settings. I decided to re-implement it but now I can't get it to work. Here are my settings:
> 
> Auto Aspect Control = HDMI
> Sticky Aspect Override = On
> NLS when applicable = Off
> Letterbox zoom = Norm
> 
> What am I doing wrong or not doing?
> 
> Thanks


Auto Aspect Control should be set to Image. There is an HDMI + Image option, but it is more trouble than it is worth.
Image just analyses the image to see what the aspect is, intead of relying on (often wrong) HDMI metadata.


----------



## GerryWaz

thebland said:


> *HDMI ISSUES *
> 
> I am having connection issues to my Sony 5000 from my 4242 9 gHz outt. I am using 2M Velox cables. What is cable of choice for HDMI handshake issues. Can’t get 4K signal to sync. Only 1080P. Any ideas here?



I use the Tributaries that Jim recommends in the linked post below. For my setup, they work great.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-158.html#post58142658


----------



## llang269

jim recommended the Velox to me and they have worked flawlessly.


----------



## appelz

llang269 said:


> jim recommended the Velox to me and they have worked flawlessly.


For source components, these are pretty much the only HDMI cables I recommend lately.


----------



## Kris Deering

For HDMI, 2 meter or longer Monoprice certified. For 25 ft or more, their fiber. Been using these for years with the Radiance and a boat load of different sources and displays with absolutely zero issue. But if you want to spend more money go for it!


----------



## appelz

Kris Deering said:


> For HDMI, 2 meter or longer Monoprice certified. For 25 ft or more, their fiber. Been using these for years with the Radiance and a boat load of different sources and displays with absolutely zero issue. But if you want to spend more money go for it!


This is mostly anecdotal, as I don't have the tools to actually measure what is going on, but I've convinced myself that the Velox cables have better shielding from EMI/RFI. Nearly all the systems I work on are engineered designs, enclosed racks, and often sharing rack space with network switches, control systems etc. All of the rooms lately have lots of RGB LED lighting with the associated transformers and LED drivers. Toss a handful of wall warts inside the rack, put everything in a small room with a WiFi access point... Seems like a harsh environment to me. 

Now combine the above with the recommendation of 2m-3m cables with a meter or more of excess cable length in service loops wired into an CEDIA award winning "Show us your racks" configuration with all of the HDMI cables on the same path and Velcroed together. 

Maybe at some point I'll hack apart a few HDMI cable brands and look at their construction.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> For HDMI, 2 meter or longer Monoprice certified. For 25 ft or more, their fiber. Been using these for years with the Radiance and a boat load of different sources and displays with absolutely zero issue. But if you want to spend more money go for it!


Since you, Craig and I think Jim Peterson (could be wrong on that) recommended those as source HDMI cables, that is what I purchased. From the Lumagen to the projector, I tried a bunch if cables and ended up with 10 meter RUIPRO HDMI Fiber cable. It seems to work fine and has passed the HDMI torture test (Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk).


----------



## thebland

thebland said:


> *HDMI ISSUES *
> 
> I am having connection issues to my Sony 5000 from my 4242 9 gHz outt. I am using 2M Velox cables. What is cable of choice for HDMI handshake issues. Can’t get 4K signal to sync. Only 1080P. Any ideas here?


Well, I went to Best Buy and bought some pricey Audioquest HDMI cables to try. As soon as I plugged them in, the picture snapped into place. They were expensive so I took Kris’s advice and bought the Monoprice certified cables. Amazon has same day delivery here, so I’ll try these later. If they work, I’ll be returning the pricey Audioquest. 

I love monoprice. Certified, premium and all those fancy descriptors for a $10 cable....

But now I get to see the tone mapping in action! 

The VELOX cables I used prior to having the Radiance Pro in my system worked flawlessly. Never one issue. Something with the Radiance seems to requires some HDMI experimentation. Even though Jim and Adam like Velox cables, apparently cable choice is system dependent. 

So far so good. 

Thanks!


----------



## Craig Peer

GerryWaz said:


> I use the Tributaries that Jim recommends in the linked post below. For my setup, they work great.
> 
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-158.html#post58142658


I got the same HDMI cables from Jim. They work. Monoprice ones were hit or miss.


----------



## Mike Garrett

thebland said:


> Well, I went to Best Buy and bought some pricey Audioquest HDMI cables to try. As soon as I plugged them in, the picture snapped into place. They were expensive so I took Kris’s advice and bought the Monoprice certified cables. Amazon has same day delivery here, so I’ll try these later. If they work, I’ll be returning the pricey Audioquest.
> 
> I love monoprice. Certified, premium and all those fancy descriptors for a $10 cable....
> 
> But now I get to see the tone mapping in action!
> 
> The VELOX cables I used prior to having the Radiance Pro in my system worked flawlessly. Never one issue. Something with the Radiance seems to requires some HDMI experimentation. Even though Jim and Adam like Velox cables, apparently cable choice is system dependent.
> 
> So far so good.
> 
> Thanks!


You are not using anything under 6' with the Lumagen, are you?


----------



## Mike Garrett

Craig Peer said:


> I got the same HDMI cables from Jim. They work. Monoprice ones were hit or miss.


I am using 6' Monoprice from Lumagen to Marantz prepro for audio and 40' Monoprice fiber optic to RS3000. I am using an older version of this cable.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=21568
Have used it with RS600, RS400, two RS640's, RS4500 and RS3000. No issues with any of the projectors.


----------



## appelz

Mike Garrett said:


> You are not using anything under 6' with the Lumagen, are you?


Not sure what cables he has purchased recently, but the installed cables were all 2m and 3m.


----------



## appelz

thebland said:


> The VELOX cables I used prior to having the Radiance Pro in my system worked flawlessly. Never one issue. Something with the Radiance seems to requires some HDMI experimentation. Even though Jim and Adam like Velox cables, apparently cable choice is system dependent.


And they worked flawlessly while I was there for 2 days installing the Lumagen and doing the calibration and other programming changes. They just don't seem to be happy with the replacement Lumagen. All weird for sure!


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike Garrett said:


> I am using 6' Monoprice from Lumagen to Marantz prepro for audio and 40' Monoprice fiber optic to RS3000. I am using an older version of this cable.
> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=21568
> Have used it with RS600, RS400, two RS640's, RS4500 and RS3000. *No issues with any of the projectors*.


Worked with projectors before and works with the same projector with the Lumagen in the chain now can be two entirely different kettles of fish. That said, my system is working flawlessly - but that took a bit of cable swapping and experimentation.


----------



## thebland

appelz said:


> And they worked flawlessly while I was there for 2 days installing the Lumagen and doing the calibration and other programming changes. They just don't seem to be happy with the replacement Lumagen. All weird for sure!


Right. For the 2 days you were on site, no issues with 4242 #1 . Oh well. 

But I’ve powered up the system at 2 different times and still all good. All new cables 2 meters. . Looking forward to trying the Monoprice tonight. 

HDMI is just killer in these more complicated applications.


----------



## audioguy

thebland said:


> HDMI is just killer in these more complicated applications.


HDMI = Highly Defective (or Demonic, or Daunting, or Deadly, or Debilitating, or Decrepit, or Deficient, or ..........) Media Interface


----------



## Mike Garrett

Craig Peer said:


> Worked with projectors before and works with the same projector with the Lumagen in the chain now can be two entirely different kettles of fish. That said, my system is working flawlessly - but that took a bit of cable swapping and experimentation.


Lumagen is in the chain, no issues.


----------



## audioguy

I now have a second favorite feature of the Lumagen. First, of course, is DTM but the second is Automatic Aspect control. I don't need it to control changing masks because the system does that other ways, but the menus from my Nvidia Shield/Plex are 16x9 and most movie menu screens are 16x9. And once the movie starts, it switches to 2:35 if appropriate. How cool is that?

My 3rd favorite feature is NLS used for watching college football. 

LOVE this product. Absolutely LOVE it!!


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> I now have a second favorite feature of the Lumagen. First, of course, is DTM but the second is Automatic Aspect control. I don't need it to control changing masks because the system does that other ways, but the menus from my Nvidia Shield/Plex are 16x9 and most movie menu screens are 16x9. And once the movie starts, it switches to 2:35 if appropriate. How cool is that?
> 
> My 3rd favorite feature is NLS used for watching college football.
> 
> LOVE this product. Absolutely LOVE it!!


NLS works for football, but it makes basketball players, tennis players and soccer players look like football players.


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> NLS works for football, but it makes basketball players, tennis players and soccer players look like football players.


Does the same to golfers


----------



## thebland

Mike Garrett said:


> Lumagen is in the chain, no issues.


Exactly. Completely random and system dependent.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I now have a second favorite feature of the Lumagen. First, of course, is DTM but the second is Automatic Aspect control. I don't need it to control changing masks because the system does that other ways, but the menus from my Nvidia Shield/Plex are 16x9 and most movie menu screens are 16x9. And once the movie starts, it switches to 2:35 if appropriate. How cool is that?
> 
> My 3rd favorite feature is NLS used for watching college football.
> 
> LOVE this product. Absolutely LOVE it!!


It's very cool, except, I need the sticky aspect override command for Interstellar. Having the movie shift to 16:9 on my scope screen and DCR lens is not ideal. I don't like these aspect ratio changing films. Pick a damn aspect ratio and stick with. It's like having a commitment issue !


----------



## mikela

Once you have applied a sticky command is there a way to revert back to AA?

Edit: It looks like you only have to reselect the input or memory to have it revert back.


----------



## Marc Alexander

audioguy said:


> I now have a second favorite feature of the Lumagen. First, of course, is DTM but the second is Automatic Aspect control. I don't need it to control changing masks because the system does that other ways, but the menus from my Nvidia Shield/Plex are 16x9 and most movie menu screens are 16x9. And once the movie starts, it switches to 2:35 if appropriate. How cool is that?
> 
> My 3rd favorite feature is NLS used for watching college football.
> 
> LOVE this product. Absolutely LOVE it!!


YES! Auto Aspect even works with non-standard ARs like 1.66:1 and 2:1 which seems to be used for a lot of original programming these days (i.e. The Handmaid's Tale).


----------



## audioguy

craig peer said:


> it's very cool, except, i need the sticky aspect override command for interstellar. Having the movie shift to 16:9 on my scope screen and dcr lens is not ideal. I don't like these aspect ratio changing films. *pick a damn aspect ratio and stick with. It's like having a commitment issue !*


lol!!


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> It's very cool, except, I need the sticky aspect override command for Interstellar. Having the movie shift to 16:9 on my scope screen and DCR lens is not ideal. I don't like these aspect ratio changing films. Pick a damn aspect ratio and stick with. It's like having a commitment issue !


In Interstellar I would like to see the Masking system go 16:9 and 2:40 depending on the AR of the movie and the picture changing the AR in Tandem.

I have a DCR also in the chain as you may know.

Since I have Adam here for two days and he will be programming my Crestron also (apart from installing Lumagen) - Let me know if a Toggle Button:

Sticky On and Off on the Crestron Remote...

Should this do the job ? Or do you have any suggestions how to get my objective accomplished.


----------



## Eventidal

Ash Sharma said:


> In Interstellar I would like to see the Masking system go 16:9 and 2:40 depending on the AR of the movie and the picture changing the AR in Tandem.
> 
> I have a DCR also in the chain as you may know.


By the time it changes the masking the scene is over  Just kidding, how long does your system take to mask the screen?

I will have a DCR installed soon as well.


----------



## crg28

Kris Deering said:


> For HDMI, 2 meter or longer Monoprice certified. For 25 ft or more, their fiber. Been using these for years with the Radiance and a boat load of different sources and displays with absolutely zero issue. But if you want to spend more money go for it!


Which Monoprice Fiber cable are you referring to?

Theater being done now. UB9000 with hopefully a NX7 for now. I'm am planning on adding a Lumagen later in the year. Which cables do you recommend I leave in place for the Lumagen?


----------



## Craig Peer

crg28 said:


> *Which Monoprice Fiber cable are you referring to?*
> 
> Theater being done now. UB9000 with hopefully a NX7 for now. I'm am planning on adding a Lumagen later in the year. Which cables do you recommend I leave in place for the Lumagen?


Get the " Premium Certified " cables.


----------



## Kris Deering

crg28 said:


> Which Monoprice Fiber cable are you referring to?
> 
> Theater being done now. UB9000 with hopefully a NX7 for now. I'm am planning on adding a Lumagen later in the year. Which cables do you recommend I leave in place for the Lumagen?


Sent you a PM


----------



## Kris Deering

mikela said:


> Once you have applied a sticky command is there a way to revert back to AA?
> 
> Edit: It looks like you only have to reselect the input or memory to have it revert back.


It clears whenever it sees a change in resolution or frame rate, so you wouldn't have to worry about it sticking after the movie as most home screens or changes in source will do one of the changes already.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Mike Garrett said:


> NLS works for football, but it makes basketball players, tennis players and soccer players look like football players.


Don't you just love it when Lebron James makes a touchdown???

lol NLS and Auto Aspect are awesome though. They elevate the cinema ownership experience in such amazing ways.


----------



## Mike Garrett

BrolicBeast said:


> Don't you just love it when Lebron James makes a touchdown???
> 
> lol NLS and Auto Aspect are awesome though. They elevate the cinema ownership experience in such amazing ways.


I like AA, but never did use NLS on my scope screen. I mean, I looked at it and decided not to use it.


----------



## Craig Peer

Thanks to Kris Deering I now have the " sticky aspect ratio " feature working. Very cool ! Thank you Kris ! Problem solved.


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> I like AA, but never did use NLS on my scope screen. I mean, I looked at it and decided not to use it.


It can look a bit odd on some material but is 'ok' watching football.


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> It can look a bit odd on some material but is 'ok' watching football.


I agree. For football it did not bother me, but did on pretty much everything else.


----------



## LJG

So for someone like myself who does not have an anamorphic lens but instead employs a CIA setup with Projector Lens/Zoom and 4 way screen masking the Lumagen could send RS232 commands to my Crestron system to set specific presets in both the projector and Stewart Bric screen masking system. This would be done automatically with AA set to image?


----------



## RickAVManiac

A question for Radiance Pro owner and Paladin DCR owner. 

I read over Panamorph web site that the JVC NX7 is not able to do 3D with the DCR lens. I think the anamorphic mode on the JVC does not support 3D processing. 

Did someone know if the Radiance Pro support 3D when using the DCR lens?


----------



## bobof

LJG said:


> So for someone like myself who does not have an anamorphic lens but instead employs a CIA setup with Projector Lens/Zoom and 4 way screen masking the Lumagen could send RS232 commands to my Crestron system to set specific presets in both the projector and Stewart Bric screen masking system. This would be done automatically with AA set to image?


The Lumagen sends generic status messages (when enabled) over the RS232 port to a connected control system. It is for the control system to receive these messages and interpret them, controlling your projector, masks and anything else required. It doesn't have anything built in that can control a particular screen or projector. There are lots of different bits of status information output from the Lumagen you might want to leverage - it can tell you if the source is SDR, HDR or 3D, it can tell you the detected aspect ratio of the input source, resolution, refresh, etc. When enabled, aspect ratio detection typically takes a couple of seconds - for most content on my JVC projector the screen is still black from the HDMI resync when the aspect of my electronic masks is being driven under Auto Aspect control.

Aspect ratio detection is based on the settings in the Auto Aspect menus. Auto aspect set to image is the best option - there is scope for some limited aspect ratio signalling on HDMI but it is more likely to cause a problem than provide any benefit. You'll also usually want to enable Sticky Aspect Override for annoying aspect switching content.

Someone will need to program the appropriate logic into your control system, be that your installer or you if you look after your control system yourself. It isn't a very big job, but it is certainly non-zero and how much effort / cost will depend on complexity of your control system, whether the installer / programmer has done it before / etc. The Lumagen RS232 interface itself works reliably, but the projector IP / RS232 interfaces from JVC (don't know if that is what you are using) are quirky and annoying (they stop responding during refresh / resolution changes on the HDMI, for example).


----------



## Mike Garrett

RickAVManiac said:


> A question for Radiance Pro owner and Paladin DCR owner.
> 
> I read over Panamorph web site that the JVC NX7 is not able to do 3D with the DCR lens. I think the anamorphic mode on the JVC does not support 3D processing.
> 
> Did someone know if the Radiance Pro support 3D when using the DCR lens?


Good question. I have not checked, but if the projector is not doing the scaling, I would think you would have no problem with the 3D scope image.


----------



## bobof

RickAVManiac said:


> A question for Radiance Pro owner and Paladin DCR owner.
> 
> I read over Panamorph web site that the JVC NX7 is not able to do 3D with the DCR lens. I think the anamorphic mode on the JVC does not support 3D processing.
> 
> Did someone know if the Radiance Pro support 3D when using the DCR lens?


Should be fine, No-Ring scaling in the Lumagen is available in 2D and 3D for ratio changing (I don't think you can scale 3D to 4K though)

Note that at present if you were planning on using Auto Aspect to move the lens or masks it doesn't automatically detect aspect ratios for frame-packed 3D content, only 2D content. I've raised it with the excellent Lumagen support & Jim I think it is on the list of things to address.


----------



## MovieRAV

RickAVManiac said:


> A question for Radiance Pro owner and Paladin DCR owner.
> 
> I read over Panamorph web site that the JVC NX7 is not able to do 3D with the DCR lens. I think the anamorphic mode on the JVC does not support 3D processing.
> 
> Did someone know if the Radiance Pro support 3D when using the DCR lens?


I was under the impression that the answer is no - the Lumagen can't solve this problem. The problem as I understand it is the JVC projector only supports 3D with 1080P inputs (so the external scaler cannot overcome this limitation) AND the JVC implementation of Anamorphic X does not support 3D. Therefore the anamorphic lens has to be removed for 3D. 

I am also interested in this - so if an expert can chime in....


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> I was under the impression that the answer is no - the Lumagen can't solve this problem. The problem as I understand it is the JVC projector only supports 3D with 1080P inputs (so the external scaler cannot overcome this limitation) AND the JVC implementation of Anamorphic X does not support 3D. Therefore the anamorphic lens has to be removed for 3D.
> 
> I am also interested in this - so if an expert can chime in....


With a Lumagen you wouldn't need to use the anamorphic scaling option in the JVC projector - you'd do the anamorphic scaling in the Lumagen - so you would be fine to leave the lens in place for 3D.


----------



## MovieRAV

bobof said:


> With a Lumagen you wouldn't need to use the anamorphic scaling option in the JVC projector - you'd do the anamorphic scaling in the Lumagen - so you would be fine to leave the lens in place for 3D.


I am thoroughly confused - as I thought the opposite conclusion was reached earlier in the DCR thread (posts 927 to 935).

Can you shed any light on that discussion? This is also something I would really like to do as I am thinking about getting an NX9, Lumagen, and Paladin DCR.


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> I am thoroughly confused - as I thought the opposite conclusion was reached earlier in the DCR thread (posts 927 to 935).
> 
> Can you shed any light on that discussion? This is also something I would really like to do as I am thinking about getting an NX9, Lumagen, and Paladin DCR.


Can you link to the posts?
Edit: ok, found them. I'm not an anamorphic lens user, so I don't know if what I'm about to suggest is dumb, but I would have thought that _if_ you could zoom the projector with the DCR lens in place (can you do that and keep focus?) you could fill the DCR with the 16:9 width and then you would just scale in the Lumagen to a slightly different vertical ratio (not using full height of the panel)...
If you can't zoom the projector with the lens in place then it does sound like you are out of luck.

But you wouldn't be using full panel width (or height), so you'd have less light going through, which I thought was the whole point of the DCR...


----------



## baseball0618

Mike Garrett said:


> I am surprised you do not have the Oppo set for source direct, so that the Lumagen upscales 1080P to 4K. That is why I pulled the UB9000 from my HT system and put the Oppo 203 back in. Will use the Panasonic with my RS640 in the media room.


Did the same thing when I added the Lumagen to my HT. I swapped out my UB820 with my Oppo 203.


----------



## beastaudio

Craig Peer said:


> If you use a Panasonic UB820 ( or UB900 or perhaps the UB9000 ) and it sees your display is 4K, it will upscale automatically. It's not really a problem. The Lumagen upscales that to 4096 for use with the DCR lens. Works fine. Kris thought it looked excellent. The Oppo could use native or upscale to 4K. I can't see a difference personally. Once again, for scope, the Lumagen upscales that to 4096 for the DCR lens. There would be some might fine hair splitting to see much difference in my opinion.


How would it treat non-DCR lenses? 



audioguy said:


> Does the same to golfers


Honestly even using the uh380 to stretch golf broadcasting to scope to get more immersive, the change in aspect only bothers me if I put the lens back and forth into place and out of place. If I just leave it, my brain adjusts very quickly and the added image size totally trumps the not so accurate image dimensions IMO.


----------



## Craig Peer

baseball0618 said:


> Did the same thing when I added the Lumagen to my HT. I swapped out my UB820 with my Oppo 203.


I have one of each. An ongoing " comparison test ". Plus, you never know when your Blu-ray player will just up and die on you.


----------



## Craig Peer

beastaudio said:


> *How would it treat non-DCR lenses? *
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly even using the uh380 to stretch golf broadcasting to scope to get more immersive, the change in aspect only bothers me if I put the lens back and forth into place and out of place. If I just leave it, my brain adjusts very quickly and the added image size totally trumps the not so accurate image dimensions IMO.


I'm not following your question. Which lens exactly ?


----------



## giomania

Mike Garrett said:


> You are not using anything under 6' with the Lumagen, are you?




I have been using many HDMI cables under six feet for many years, without issues. For inquiring minds, the cables are all Blue Jeans Cables, the Belden Series made with Belden cable. 

I started buying these cables in 2011, and they even work with 4K HDR HDMI 2.0! I even have a 25-foot model going from the Lumagen to the projector that works just fine.

As mentioned, with HDMI, YMMV. 

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Craig Peer

giomania said:


> I have been using many HDMI cables under six feet for many years, without issues. For inquiring minds, the cables are all Blue Jeans Cables, the Belden Series made with Belden cable.
> 
> I started buying these cables in 2011, and they even work with 4K HDR HDMI 2.0! I even have a 25-foot model going from the Lumagen to the projector that works just fine.
> 
> As mentioned, with HDMI, YMMV.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Sometimes it seems like you either need a priest to bless your cables or a voodoo witch doctor to drive the evil spirits away..................


----------



## pjones

giomania said:


> I have been using many HDMI cables under six feet for many years, without issues. For inquiring minds, the cables are all Blue Jeans Cables, the Belden Series made with Belden cable.
> 
> I started buying these cables in 2011, and they even work with 4K HDR HDMI 2.0! I even have a 25-foot model going from the Lumagen to the projector that works just fine.
> 
> As mentioned, with HDMI, YMMV.


I also use all Blue Jeans HDMI cables, including a 30-foot passive BJC Series-1 behind wall/ceiling to projector mount installed back in 2011. I was anxious about whether that cable still would still work with equipment upgrades earlier this year—because it would be a huge hassle to replace—but happily it has continued to work flawlessly with 4096x2160p60 from Radiance Pro 18GHz output (to JVC RS1000).

(All my others are BJC Series-FE at 6-feet, per longstanding guidance from Lumagen not to go shorter than that.)


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> I am thoroughly confused - as I thought the opposite conclusion was reached earlier in the DCR thread (posts 927 to 935).
> 
> Can you shed any light on that discussion? This is also something I would really like to do as I am thinking about getting an NX9, Lumagen, and Paladin DCR.


Just to follow up on this, I see @Wookii had the same thought as me on this (see quote below). Maybe someone who has implemented 3D with a fixed DCR lens could comment, as for me the below it theoretical rather than practical experience. 

As the JVC can only receive 1080p 3D, and can't expand it using the anamorphic modes for the DCR correctly, what you'd do is output from the Lumagen a 1080p signal with slightly less vertical expansion than you'd usually use, leaving a small black bar top and bottom as well as left and right. You'd then zoom the projector lens slightly (depending on lens shift you might have to change lens shift as well) to make the 1080p width of the panel fit the screen.

The bit I'm unclear on is whether with a fixed DCR lens you can shift and zoom slightly your image in the projector without negatively impacting the image. You would have to be able to adjust the image zoom and shift in the projector with the lens in place for this to work.

Anyway, if it could work, this means you'd lose the extra light benefit that the DCR lens had over a normal anamorphic lens for 3D (in fact, I think it would be slightly worse because you'd be using slightly less panel), and you'd have a little less vertical resolution for your 3D content, plus you'd need two lens shift memories, one for 2D using full panel and one for 3D with the image zoomed. 

I think there is also the option - instead of using the mechanical zoom - be able to use the built in "Aspect" -> Zoom function in the projector to zoom the slightly vertically squashed image to full panel width - not sure if that option works in 3D on the projector. 



Wookii said:


> Ah I see, sorry I wasn't aware the JVC's were limited to a 1080p input for 3D (though it makes sense given that is the only format it's available in) - though that would be a JVC limitation, not a Lumagen one - that said I'm surprised there isn't a work around, like having the Lumagen perform a 6% vertical compression (and add black bars that could be zoomed off screen with a lens memory), to counter the 6% horizontal squeeze, even if outputting as 1080p.


----------



## RickAVManiac

This morning I've got some time to lose so I decide to remove the Radiance from the path and re-try the JVC auto tone map. Just want to confirm to myself that the Radiance DTM was really adding a plus. I know it was but was curious to re-validate that. The honeymoon period with the Pro was over so maybe I will be more critical...

Oh boy!!! Test was short, first movie I put was Harry Potter and Goblet of Fire 4k HDR and without the Radiance Pro the image has less details in dark and bright scene. I try to play with my JVC HDR setting but nothing I can do to even get close to the Radiance DTM. Also somehow, with the Pro all those details in bright scene and black scene make the image depth look way better. 

Did not even bother to try a second disk. 

Looks like the honeymoon continu


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> Just to follow up on this, I see @Wookii had the same thought as me on this (see quote below). Maybe someone who has implemented 3D with a fixed DCR lens could comment, as for me the below it theoretical rather than practical experience.
> 
> As the JVC can only receive 1080p 3D, and can't expand it using the anamorphic modes for the DCR correctly, what you'd do is output from the Lumagen a 1080p signal with slightly less vertical expansion than you'd usually use, leaving a small black bar top and bottom as well as left and right. You'd then zoom the projector lens slightly (depending on lens shift you might have to change lens shift as well) to make the 1080p width of the panel fit the screen.
> 
> The bit I'm unclear on is whether with a fixed DCR lens you can shift and zoom slightly your image in the projector without negatively impacting the image. You would have to be able to adjust the image zoom and shift in the projector with the lens in place for this to work.
> 
> Anyway, if it could work, this means you'd lose the extra light benefit that the DCR lens had over a normal anamorphic lens for 3D (in fact, I think it would be slightly worse because you'd be using slightly less panel), and you'd have a little less vertical resolution for your 3D content, plus you'd need two lens shift memories, one for 2D using full panel and one for 3D with the image zoomed.
> 
> I think there is also the option - instead of using the mechanical zoom - be able to use the built in "Aspect" -> Zoom function in the projector to zoom the slightly vertically squashed image to full panel width - not sure if that option works in 3D on the projector.


Since 3D is not specified for any 4K format no projector or TV can handle it. With the Sony Pjs the workaround is, set the Aspect to 2.35 zoom and use the full panel. 
I just tried that and it works.


----------



## Craig Peer

RickAVManiac said:


> This morning I've got some time to lose so I decide to remove the Radiance from the path and re-try the JVC auto tone map. Just want to confirm to myself that the Radiance DTM was really adding a plus. I know it was but was curious to re-validate that. The honeymoon period with the Pro was over so maybe I will be more critical...
> 
> Oh boy!!! Test was short, first movie I put was Harry Potter and Goblet of Fire 4k HDR and without the Radiance Pro the image has less details in dark and bright scene. I try to play with my JVC HDR setting but nothing I can do to even get close to the Radiance DTM. Also somehow, with the Pro all those details in bright scene and black scene make the image depth look way better.
> 
> Did not even bother to try a second disk.
> 
> Looks like the honeymoon continu


There is really no comparison. DTM is a game changer !


----------



## Mike Garrett

giomania said:


> I have been using many HDMI cables under six feet for many years, without issues. For inquiring minds, the cables are all Blue Jeans Cables, the Belden Series made with Belden cable.
> 
> I started buying these cables in 2011, and they even work with 4K HDR HDMI 2.0! I even have a 25-foot model going from the Lumagen to the projector that works just fine.
> 
> As mentioned, with HDMI, YMMV.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I would not use anything under 6'. Less likely to have issues.


----------



## dlinsley

GerryWaz said:


> *Beta 081019- *_Posted 082319_ A new FPGA version from rev 080919 fixes issues seen in many systems with getting picture and other video issues. Software identical to 080919.
> *
> *
> It fixed my issues.


I wasn't experiencing issues with the prior release until we went to start Stranger Things 3 last night. Although the Roku is set for auto framerate switch, ST3 was (unexpectedly to me, maybe it's correct) outputting as 4k60 and sent the Radiance into snow after a few seconds of starting the stream. Three cycles of standby, power, retry and same issue I remembered about this update. Although it was late, thankfully my wife stuck with me as I applied the update and it worked


----------



## MovieRAV

Eventidal said:


> Since 3D is not specified for any 4K format no projector or TV can handle it. With the Sony Pjs the workaround is, set the Aspect to 2.35 zoom and use the full panel.
> I just tried that and it works.


Was this with the Lumagen Radiance and an anamorphic lens? I don't understand how using 2.35 zoom solves the problem. Doesn't it expand the image in every direction? 

Perhaps the problem people refer to in combining 3D with the NX9 and an anamorphic lens is losing resolution? With non-3D 1080P material and the lens in place the Lumagen can upscale the 16:9 image to 3037 x 2160. However if the JVC only accepts a 1920 x 1080 image for 3D, this image would have to be vertically compressed by the Lumagen by something like 20% (with a loss of resolution).

Or perhaps the Lumagen doesn't support this combination (3D, 1080p output, anamorphic lens with vertical compression)?


----------



## Eventidal

MovieRAV said:


> Was this with the Lumagen Radiance and an anamorphic lens? I don't understand how using 2.35 zoom solves the problem. Doesn't it expand the image in every direction?
> 
> Perhaps the problem people refer to in combining 3D with the NX9 and an anamorphic lens is losing resolution? With non-3D 1080P material and the lens in place the Lumagen can upscale the 16:9 image to 3037 x 2160. However if the JVC only accepts a 1920 x 1080 image for 3D, this image would have to be vertically compressed by the Lumagen by something like 20% (with a loss of resolution).
> 
> Or perhaps the Lumagen doesn't support this combination (3D, 1080p output, anamorphic lens with vertical compression)?


Yes, with an anamorphic lens. The Lumagen does the correct scaling and the projector was set to 2.35 zoom. My old lens uses horizontal expansion though . I have not installed the DCR yet. I have asked Jim to give us a heads up on this...


----------



## Mike Garrett

Let's see if this is still a problem after the next JVC firmware update.


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> Was this with the Lumagen Radiance and an anamorphic lens? I don't understand how using 2.35 zoom solves the problem. Doesn't it expand the image in every direction?
> 
> Perhaps the problem people refer to in combining 3D with the NX9 and an anamorphic lens is losing resolution? With non-3D 1080P material and the lens in place the Lumagen can upscale the 16:9 image to 3037 x 2160. However if the JVC only accepts a 1920 x 1080 image for 3D, this image would have to be vertically compressed by the Lumagen by something like 20% (with a loss of resolution).
> 
> Or perhaps the Lumagen doesn't support this combination (3D, 1080p output, anamorphic lens with vertical compression)?


There are no such limitations I'm aware of on the Lumagen side, the scaling ratios are arbitrarily adjustable even in 3D and 1080p out.

The net effect on the output of the Lumagen would be that:

If you're talking about watching 16:9 3D content, output to be pillarboxed within 2.35 framing, then with a lens in place it would have to be horizontally compressed only with some loss of resolution (it could be output at full panel height)
If you're talking about watching letterboxed 2.35 16:9 3D content then it would have no horizontal compression, and would be expanded vertically from the the letterboxed content 2.35 height up to a little bit less than full 1080p height (to create a 17:9 output frame within 1080p for expansion to 2.35:1 by the lens)

It's another discussion, but is pillarboxed 3D 16:9 on a 2.35:1 screen worth losing sleep over? In my own 3D collection much of the 16x9 stuff is IMAX originated and you wouldn't want to watch it that way anyhow, I open the top and bottom masks for that.

However if the loss of horizontal resolution is a big issue with 3D 16:9 content output to be pillarboxed then I think regardless of projector (given the lack of 4K 3D support) you'd want to have the lens automated to move it out of the way as desired.


----------



## MovieRAV

Mike Garrett said:


> Let's see if this is still a problem after the next JVC firmware update.


That sounds very promising! Maybe CEDIA....


----------



## Craig Peer

RickAVManiac said:


> This morning I've got some time to lose so I decide to remove the Radiance from the path and re-try the JVC auto tone map. Just want to confirm to myself that the Radiance DTM was really adding a plus. I know it was but was curious to re-validate that. The honeymoon period with the Pro was over so maybe I will be more critical...
> 
> Oh boy!!! Test was short, first movie I put was Harry Potter and Goblet of Fire 4k HDR and without the Radiance Pro the image has less details in dark and bright scene. I try to play with my JVC HDR setting but nothing I can do to even get close to the Radiance DTM. Also somehow, with the Pro all those details in bright scene and black scene make the image depth look way better.
> 
> Did not even bother to try a second disk.
> 
> *Looks like the honeymoon continu*


I put the " Alita : Battle Angel " 4K Blu-ray on and the honeymoon was re-ignited ! Lumagen's DTM might be the best thing to happen to 4K and my RS4500 ! Thanks Kris for the amazing calibration too.


----------



## jrp

MovieRAV said:


> I was under the impression that the answer is no - the Lumagen can't solve this problem. The problem as I understand it is the JVC projector only supports 3D with 1080P inputs (so the external scaler cannot overcome this limitation) AND the JVC implementation of Anamorphic X does not support 3D. Therefore the anamorphic lens has to be removed for 3D.
> 
> I am also interested in this - so if an expert can chime in....


For 3D the Pro needs to send 1080 Frame Packed or 1080 Side-by-side (or top over bottom) to the JVC projectors. 

Your post reminded me that the JVC will only output 3840x2160 for 3D content and so is not ideal for the DCR lens. That is for 3D you can not fill the 4096 width.

You could set up a JVC lens memory for 3840 wide to fill the screen for 3D, and then have a Radiance Pro memory adjusted for the 3840 wide and "shrink" the top and bottom so the 3D fills the screen appropriately for 2.40 3D content. 

[EDIT] If you do *not* have an A-Lens you could also have a 16:9 lens zoom for 16:9 3D content and then a different memory set up for that. I believe more animated 3D content is 16:9 and this would almost double the light output if you have a 2.40 screen, so losing 60% to the 50% glasses shutter duty cycle and light loss in the glasses would not be as large an issue.

[Additional edit below]

There seems to be a lot of confusion on 3D and the anamorphic lens. So here are some more comments:

You set the Pro up like you did in the "1080 days" for an anamorphic screen. The Pro will output 3D content as 1080 (1080p24 Frame packed for 24 Hertz, and 1080p60 Side-by-side for 60 Hertz content).

You can leave the A-Lens in place and get most of the light gain (somewhat less since it will be 3840x2160 rather than 4096/2160). This is still more light than without the A-Lens and you do not need to move the A-Lens out of the light path.

In the Output->OutputSetup->3D select all inputs, all input memories and all input modes, then you can select "auto" for output mode, then select a CMS for the "601/709" column and a "Style" specific to 3D.

In the Output Style for 3D, you can select the output aspect as 2.40 (match your screen). If you do not have an A-Lens you need to also adjust the "Output Shrink" so the content fills the height.

Since the Pro will stretch the 1080 "2.40" content up (not down) to vertically fill the raster, you are not really loosing resolution, but rather you are gaining the light output for anamorphic content.

Choose a projector memory for use with 3D and zoom the active raster (3840 wide) to the width of the screen. Use "Output Shrink" for the Style used for 3D as needed.

I usually recommend copying the 2D SDR 709 CMS (normally CMS0) to the CMS used for 3D. Then with the glasses on viewing the "3D Contrast 2 pattern" in the Radiance Pro (just have a 3D source active and the Pro will output the test pattern in a 3D mode but both eyes are the same) you can adjust the 3D's CMS Black level up to account for the light loss of the 3D glasses. For the die hard calibrator *if* you want to calibrate 3D, I recommend shooting a reference without the glasses, then one with glasses "open" and using the offset just like you would a Spectro to calibrate a tri-stimulus probe.


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> Your post reminded me that the JVC will only output 3840x2160 for 3D content and so is not ideal for the DCR lens. That is for 3D you can not fill the 4096 width.


Aren´t the Sony Pjs taking advantage of the full display using 4096 width by using 2.35 zoom mode with 3D content?


----------



## hamster71

Eventidal said:


> Aren´t the Sony Pjs taking advantage of the full display using 4096 width by using 2.35 zoom mode with 3D content?


Hello everyone, I follow this forum for a while, own me also a lumagen Pro. First of all, I would like to thank you for all the advice I could draw from it.

I have never posted messages because I do not speak English, but I have a question to which I have not found answers.

I am very satisfied with the latest firmware versions of the Lumagen, but I noticed something strange. 4K films that have a maximum brightness of 4000 Nits are quite dark compared to movies that have 1000 nits of max luminesity.

Is this normal?
I thought the Lumagen automatically adjusted the brightness to the max cll brightness of the 4K bluray ?

For example if I compare the bluray of Avengers Endgame, the 1080p version is much brighter than the version 4K 4000 nits ...

While if I compare a bluray 4K 1000 nits, for example Captain Marvell, I do not see glaring differences in brightness between the two versions, 4k and 1080p ...

I hope my message is understandable and I apologize for any orthographic errors.


----------



## MovieRAV

jrp said:


> If you do *not* have an A-Lens you could also have a 16:9 lens zoom for 16:9 3D content and then a different memory set up for that. I believe more animated 3D content is 16:9 and this would almost double the light output if you have a 2.40 screen, so losing 60% to the 50% glasses shutter duty cycle and light loss in the glasses would not be as large an issue.


I am considering purchasing both a Lumagen Radiance (because of rave reviews of the DTM feature) and an A-lens (to gain light output for 2.40) to go with a JVC NX9. 

2.40 material seems pretty clear - major gains even for 3D (as Jim described above).

I am still a bit unsure how to handle 16:9 source material. 

Will the Lumagen let me project 16:9 source material with an arbitrary aspect ratio through the A-lens if I want a larger (brighter) picture? I find when I zoom and mask 1.78 to fit 2.40 it cuts off a bit more than I would like. Can I choose any arbitrary aspect ratio to project from 16:9 source material - such as 2.10? 

And can I do the same with 3D?


----------



## jrp

hamster71 said:


> Hello everyone, I follow this forum for a while, own me also a Lumagen Pro. First of all, I would like to thank you for all the advice I could draw from it.
> 
> I have never posted messages because I do not speak English, but I have a question to which I have not found answers.
> 
> I am very satisfied with the latest firmware versions of the Lumagen, but I noticed something strange. 4K films that have a maximum brightness of 4000 Nits are quite dark compared to movies that have 1000 nits of max luminosity.
> 
> Is this normal? ...


This is not normal. However, note that this might be scene-specific. The Radiance Pro DTM analyzes each scene. So for a given set of parameters a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movies should look similar to a 500 nit scene in a 4000 nit movie, but a 100 nit scene in the 4000 nit movie can look darker than a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movie.

As a suggestion, go into the MENU->Options->HDR Setup on latest release and reset the HDR parameters to default. The set the "DLev" = 8 so that the movies reported MaxCLL is not affecting the brightness (this is a recent change in our recommendation). Then use a bright movie (for example Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29, or "The Meg" in a bright scene) and set the MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light appropriately.

After doing this look a scenes from 1000 nit movies and 4000 nit movies to see if scenes with similar MaxCLL values look similar. You can see the current frame's MaxCLL and MaxY using the debug command MENU 0532 "Live" mode. The best comparison may be for scenes with a MaxY of about 500.


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> This is not normal. However, note that this might be scene-specific. The Radiance Pro DTM analyzes each scene. So for a given set of parameters a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movies should look similar to a 500 nit scene in a 4000 nit movie, but a 100 nit scene in the 4000 nit movie can look darker than a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movie.
> 
> As a suggestion, go into the MENU->Options->HDR Setup on latest release and reset the HDR parameters to default. The set the "DLev" = 8 so that the movies reported MaxCLL is not affecting the brightness (this is a recent change in our recommendation). Then use a bright movie (for example Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29, or "The Meg" in a bright scene) and set the MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light appropriately.
> 
> After doing this look a scenes from 1000 nit movies and 4000 nit movies to see if scenes with similar MaxCLL values look similar. You can see the current frame's MaxCLL and MaxY using the debug command MENU 0532 "Live" mode. The best comparison may be for scenes with a MaxY of about 500.


Jim, I would just like to confirm the recommended workflow is to turn on DTM and set DLev to 8 prior to setting the CMS Max Light?

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## beastaudio

Craig Peer said:


> I'm not following your question. Which lens exactly ?


Any lens other than the DCR basically since the DCR treats the image slightly differently than all others...standard paladin notwithstanding. 



hamster71 said:


> Hello everyone, I follow this forum for a while, own me also a lumagen Pro. First of all, I would like to thank you for all the advice I could draw from it.
> 
> I have never posted messages because I do not speak English, but I have a question to which I have not found answers.
> 
> I am very satisfied with the latest firmware versions of the Lumagen, but I noticed something strange. 4K films that have a maximum brightness of 4000 Nits are quite dark compared to movies that have 1000 nits of max luminesity.
> 
> Is this normal?
> I thought the Lumagen automatically adjusted the brightness to the max cll brightness of the 4K bluray ?
> 
> For example if I compare the bluray of Avengers Endgame, the 1080p version is much brighter than the version 4K 4000 nits ...
> 
> While if I compare a bluray 4K 1000 nits, for example Captain Marvell, I do not see glaring differences in brightness between the two versions, 4k and 1080p ...
> 
> I hope my message is understandable and I apologize for any orthographic errors.


Please don't ever hesitate to post my friend! Your prose is better than 90% of the posters that DO speak engish. Shoot, I even had to look up "Orthographic" just to be sure, haha.

In my experience all 4000 nit titles I own do happen to be a shade darker than lower Nit titles but I am not sure how aggressive of an issue you are experiencing. Perhaps a settings issue but I'll let one of the more knowledgeable guys respond to that!


----------



## Craig Peer

beastaudio said:


> *Any lens other than the DCR basically since the DCR treats the image slightly differently than all others...standard paladin notwithstanding*.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't ever hesitate to post my friend! Your prose is better than 90% of the posters that DO speak engish. Shoot, I even had to look up "Orthographic" just to be sure, haha.
> 
> In my experience all 4000 nit titles I own do happen to be a shade darker than lower Nit titles but I am not sure how aggressive of an issue you are experiencing. Perhaps a settings issue but I'll let one of the more knowledgeable guys respond to that!


1.33X lenses including the regular Paladin have the correct aspect ratio using 3840 x 2196. 1.25X lenses - 4096 x 2160.


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> I am considering purchasing both a Lumagen Radiance (because of rave reviews of the DTM feature) and an A-lens (to gain light output for 2.40) to go with a JVC NX9.
> 
> 2.40 material seems pretty clear - major gains even for 3D (as Jim described above).
> 
> I am still a bit unsure how to handle 16:9 source material.
> 
> Will the Lumagen let me project 16:9 source material with an arbitrary aspect ratio through the A-lens if I want a larger (brighter) picture? I find when I zoom and mask 1.78 to fit 2.40 it cuts off a bit more than I would like. Can I choose any arbitrary aspect ratio to project from 16:9 source material - such as 2.10?
> 
> And can I do the same with 3D?


While watching 3D content you should be able to set the Lumagen to output "correct" aspects for everything (eg 16:9 pillarboxed for 2.35:1 screen). If you then want to zoom 16:9 content a bit more you just press the up arrow on the Lumagen remote and you get something like 4-5 steps of zoom into the image.
I've just checked on my unit, this does work as expected with frame-packed 3D content and 2D content. As I mentioned in an earlier post, so far the only thing I've seen that doesn't work in 3D mode is auto-aspect, and I'm pretty sure that is considered a bug to be looked at.

There is a ton of flexibility as you can configure many of the options differently for each input and output aspect. I don't do this myself as I usually watch everything as it was made (16:9 as 16:9, 2.4 as 2.4) but you can do all kinds of "unclean" stuff like using NLS to apply a non-linear stretch to the image to make 16:9 fill the 2.4 screen...

The only thing you can't do is overcome hard limits in the projector. As the projector can't receive more than 1920x1080p for 3D mode, everything you do has to fit within that. Other than that obvious limitation, you can pretty much do what you want scaling wise.


----------



## MovieRAV

bobof said:


> While watching 3D content you should be able to set the Lumagen to output "correct" aspects for everything (eg 16:9 pillarboxed for 2.35:1 screen). If you then want to zoom 16:9 content a bit more you just press the up arrow on the Lumagen remote and you get something like 4-5 steps of zoom into the image.
> I've just checked on my unit, this does work as expected with frame-packed 3D content and 2D content. As I mentioned in an earlier post, so far the only thing I've seen that doesn't work in 3D mode is auto-aspect, and I'm pretty sure that is considered a bug to be looked at.
> 
> There is a ton of flexibility as you can configure many of the options differently for each input and output aspect. I don't do this myself as I usually watch everything as it was made (16:9 as 16:9, 2.4 as 2.4) but you can do all kinds of "unclean" stuff like using NLS to apply a non-linear stretch to the image to make 16:9 fill the 2.4 screen...
> 
> The only thing you can't do is overcome hard limits in the projector. As the projector can't receive more than 1920x1080p for 3D mode, everything you do has to fit within that. Other than that obvious limitation, you can pretty much do what you want scaling wise.


Thank you - that is very helpful information. I must admit that I kind of liked watching 16:9 in a 2.1 aspect ratio after trying it last night on a complete movie. I am going to start digging into the Lumagen manual to understand it better. I am especially looking forward to DTM.


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> Thank you - that is very helpful information. I must admit that I kind of liked watching 16:9 in a 2.1 aspect ratio after trying it last night on a complete movie. I am going to start digging into the Lumagen manual to understand it better. I am especially looking forward to DTM.


Whatever works for you 

You should consider hitting up whoever you'll buy this from for specifics about your install, they're high-ticket items and I'm sure the kind of people selling them know all the ins and outs.

Are you DIY'ing or getting it installed / calibrated?


----------



## MovieRAV

bobof said:


> Whatever works for you
> 
> You should consider hitting up whoever you'll buy this from for specifics about your install, they're high-ticket items and I'm sure the kind of people selling them know all the ins and outs.
> 
> Are you DIY'ing or getting it installed / calibrated?


Most definitely - good advice! I am not so much a DIY type - more because of time than anything else. I do a lot of technical work - to the extent that I am working on developing a product right now that amongst many other details has an HDMI output. That has been interesting because we did some internal testing and found that the specific HDMI connector we were planning to use was creating issues from an EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) perspective. 

My install is being done by Abt Electronics, who are local here in Chicago and do really good work - but even they told me I should get a specialist to setup the Lumagen.


----------



## dinamigym

MovieRAV said:


> Most definitely - good advice! I am not so much a DIY type - more because of time than anything else. I do a lot of technical work - to the extent that I am working on developing a product right now that amongst many other details has an HDMI output. That has been interesting because we did some internal testing and found that the specific HDMI connector we were planning to use was creating issues from an EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) perspective.
> 
> My install is being done by Abt Electronics, who are local here in Chicago and do really good work - but even they told me I should get a specialist to setup the Lumagen.


I am in no way suggesting that at some point you wouldn't/shouldn't get a professional calibration done to dial everything in. However, I'm confident with your technical background that, in short order, you can have the Lumagen working pretty well out of the box with most of the default settings. The menu system is pretty intuitive. I wouldn't be afraid to familiarize yourself with it a bit prior to a professional install/calibration. It can only help in the long run.


----------



## bobof

MovieRAV said:


> Most definitely - good advice! I am not so much a DIY type - more because of time than anything else. I do a lot of technical work - to the extent that I am working on developing a product right now that amongst many other details has an HDMI output. That has been interesting because we did some internal testing and found that the specific HDMI connector we were planning to use was creating issues from an EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) perspective.


Likely we move in similar circles, I'm also doing an HDMI design at the moment...  Boards back from manufacturing soon...
I'm sure you could set it up yourself if you wanted to. There's nothing intrinsically difficult about them and the UI is logical enough when you get your head round it.

Most folk don't have good enough meters or the SW to do the 3DLUT side very well though, so definitely worth getting someone to do at least the colour correction and calibration even if you set up the rest yourself.



MovieRAV said:


> My install is being done by Abt Electronics, who are local here in Chicago and do really good work - but even they told me I should get a specialist to setup the Lumagen.


Sound like a good outfit if they're recommending to get a specialist rather than "winging it".


----------



## darksets

The latest DTM is another great step by Lumagen and I would like to exchange information with other owners of the Sony vw-995es projector. My calibrator has been unable to advise me on how to adjust the settings to the latest DTM software but I did my own sight based adjustment. I found the results very satisfying for the few titles I tested. Here are my settings:


Display Max Light: 200
Ratio: 10
Shape: 2
Tran: 7


I'm looking forward to comparing my settings with other 995 owners, provided they don't violate any confidentiality agreements with their calibrators of course.


----------



## jbrinegar

I used to have a Sony 885es and your display max light seems a little low and bright scenes might be a little washed out. I think I used around 500 for display max light (I was hitting about 100 nits with my 885es)

I think current lumagen recommendation is to use a multiplier of 4-8x your nits and set your low scrMax ratio to hit double your nits. 

For example: say you’re measuring 80 nits with your 995es. Set your display max light to 400( 80x5=400) and set your low scrMax ratio to hit 160 (80x2=160), which will probably be around 20 or so. Leave everything else to default. 

Of course it’s mostly individual taste and preferences!😁




darksets said:


> The latest DTM is another great step by Lumagen and I would like to exchange information with other owners of the Sony vw-995es projector. My calibrator has been unable to advise me on how to adjust the settings to the latest DTM software but I did my own sight based adjustment. I found the results very satisfying for the few titles I tested. Here are my settings:
> 
> 
> Display Max Light: 200
> Ratio: 10
> Shape: 2
> Tran: 7
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to comparing my settings with other 995 owners, provided they don't violate any confidentiality agreements with their calibrators of course.


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> The latest DTM is another great step by Lumagen and I would like to exchange information with other owners of the Sony vw-995es projector. My calibrator has been unable to advise me on how to adjust the settings to the latest DTM software but I did my own sight based adjustment. I found the results very satisfying for the few titles I tested. Here are my settings:
> 
> Display Max Light: 200
> Ratio: 10
> Shape: 2
> Tran: 7


For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.

The best settings depend on your screen size and your screen "gain" and if you have an anamorphic lens. As a rough estimate, if you have a 10 foot wide unity gain screen you might end up with Max Light at about 400. Then go into the Input->Options->HDR Setup menu and reset the parameters to defaults. This will put Low-set Ratio=15, Shape=3, Tran=7, and High set Ratio=0, Shape=4, Tran=9. Then you will have a good place to try tweaks if you want. However, note that we are finding the defaults work very well and changing parameter incorrectly can actually reduce picture quality.


----------



## Eventidal

darksets said:


> The latest DTM is another great step by Lumagen and I would like to exchange information with other owners of the Sony vw-995es projector. My calibrator has been unable to advise me on how to adjust the settings to the latest DTM software but I did my own sight based adjustment. I found the results very satisfying for the few titles I tested. Here are my settings:
> 
> 
> Display Max Light: 200
> Ratio: 10
> Shape: 2
> Tran: 7
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to comparing my settings with other 995 owners, provided they don't violate any confidentiality agreements with their calibrators of course.


I am using with my 995ES

Display Max Light 350/400
Ratio depending on movie
Shape 3
Transition 6/7
DTM Level 8


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.
> 
> The best settings depend on your screen size and your screen "gain" and if you have an anamorphic lens. As a rough estimate, if you have a 10 foot wide unity gain screen you might end up with Max Light at about 400. Then go into the Input->Options->HDR Setup menu and reset the parameters to defaults. This will put Low-set Ratio=15, Shape=3, Tran=7, and High set Ratio=0, Shape=4, Tran=9. Then you will have a good place to try tweaks if you want. However, note that we are finding the defaults work very well and changing parameter incorrectly can actually reduce picture quality.


Thanks Jim, and everybody else who replied. The values you recommend are exactly what I had with the old DTM and worked great. But everybody says that the new DTM requires different values and indeed when I updated the software and tested the picture with the old values looked a bit dim and lacking punch. So I find it interesting that everybody pretty much recommends settings that worked well with the old DTM. Is it not true that the new DTM requires adjustment to settings?


----------



## hamster71

jrp said:


> This is not normal. However, note that this might be scene-specific. The Radiance Pro DTM analyzes each scene. So for a given set of parameters a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movies should look similar to a 500 nit scene in a 4000 nit movie, but a 100 nit scene in the 4000 nit movie can look darker than a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movie.
> 
> As a suggestion, go into the MENU->Options->HDR Setup on latest release and reset the HDR parameters to default. The set the "DLev" = 8 so that the movies reported MaxCLL is not affecting the brightness (this is a recent change in our recommendation). Then use a bright movie (for example Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29, or "The Meg" in a bright scene) and set the MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light appropriately.



Hello,

Thank you for your suggestions, I had already set the default HDR parameters and the "DLev" to 8.

In fact I adapted the Display Max Light and it is much better, because it is less powerful with the latest version of the DTM.



beastaudio said:


> Please don't ever hesitate to post my friend!
> 
> In my experience all 4000 nit titles I own do happen to be a shade darker than lower Nit titles but I am not sure how aggressive of an issue you are experiencing. Perhaps a settings issue but I'll let one of the more knowledgeable guys respond to that!


Thank you 

Yes after several tests, I also note that the films with 4000 nits remain slightly darker than the films with 1000 nits.



darksets said:


> Thanks Jim, and everybody else who replied. The values you recommend are exactly what I had with the old DTM and worked great. But everybody says that the new DTM requires different values and indeed when I updated the software and tested the picture with the old values looked a bit dim and lacking punch. So I find it interesting that everybody pretty much recommends settings that worked well with the old DTM. Is it not true that the new DTM requires adjustment to settings?


Totally agree with you, I made the mistake of leaving the Display Max Light at the same level. But with the latest update the DTM we have to lower it to find the same brightness. So with a projector not bright it can become problematic.


----------



## Kris Deering

hamster71 said:


> Yes after several tests, I also note that the films with 4000 nits remain slightly darker than the films with 1000 nits.


This will most likely be the case, but with the proper settings it shouldn't be nearly as often as before. With high nit titles with high APL you have to allow for more dynamic range because there is more dynamic range to deal with. With the scene by scene tone mapping the difference should be slight at best though, but there will be times when you have to allow for more range to avoid clipping and other artifacts so some scenes may look slightly darker. 

With my clients I think I have had exactly ONE that hasn't been absolutely thrilled with the results. Everyone else has said the image looks better than it ever has, even with scenes that they were struggling with. And as I mentioned before, I am available for remote setup of the Radiance Pro for anyone that wants to take advantage of it. This has worked out really well for a lot of customers so far.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.
> 
> The best settings depend on your screen size and your screen "gain" and if you have an anamorphic lens. As a rough estimate, if you have a 10 foot wide unity gain screen you might end up with Max Light at about 400. Then go into the Input->Options->HDR Setup menu and reset the parameters to defaults. This will put Low-set Ratio=15, Shape=3, Tran=7, and High set Ratio=0, Shape=4, Tran=9. Then you will have a good place to try tweaks if you want. However, note that we are finding the defaults work very well and changing parameter incorrectly can actually reduce picture quality.



I set the Display Max Light back to 400 and tried your method of aiming to get the low end effective Max Light to 2x the light output in nits. The settings I ended up with are:

Display Max Light: 400
Ratio: 23
Shape: 3
Tran: 7

So the only difference in settings compared to the old DTM is the Ratio from 15 to 23.
My impression so far is that the picture looks really good, I'll keep testing with more material. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## Mark_H

The new Spears & Munsil disc is incredibly useful when setting up DTM. The ability to be able to switch between 1000 & 4000 nit mastered demo footage on the fly makes adjusting the DTM HIGH/LOW parameters very easy and results in a very consistent image.


----------



## hamster71

jrp said:


> After doing this look a scenes from 1000 nit movies and 4000 nit movies to see if scenes with similar MaxCLL values look similar. You can see the current frame's MaxCLL and MaxY using the debug command MENU 0532 "Live" mode. The best comparison may be for scenes with a MaxY of about 500.


can you tell me how to activate the "Live mode" to use the Menu command?



darksets said:


> I set the Display Max Light back to 400 and tried your method of aiming to get the low end effective Max Light to 2x the light output in nits. The settings I ended up with are:
> 
> My impression so far is that the picture looks really good, I'll keep testing with more material. Thanks for the advice!


And if you now compare the same movie with the 1080p bluray version, you can not find the less luminous 4k version?


----------



## Wookii

hamster71 said:


> can you tell me how to activate the "Live mode" to use the Menu command?


Jim gave you the button sequence to activate the 'Live' mode: Press in sequence - 'Menu' '0' '5' '3' '2'


----------



## hamster71

Kris Deering said:


> With my clients I think I have had exactly ONE that hasn't been absolutely thrilled with the results. Everyone else has said the image looks better than it ever has, even with scenes that they were struggling with. And as I mentioned before, I am available for remote setup of the Radiance Pro for anyone that wants to take advantage of it. This has worked out really well for a lot of customers so far.


I live in Switzerland, and here there is absolutely no one to calibrate and adjust a Lumagen Pro to my knowledge ...

And I admit that I am passionate about everything that is settings. I like to understand everything and be able to manage on my own. I own Chromapure 3 with a display 3 Pro for the image and a Clio pocket for the sound 

I think the main problem on my system is my projector which is not very bright. I have a 130-inch basic screen with a gain of 2, and my projector is a Marantz VP-11S2. So that I have to set the max light display on 100 at home to have a correct brightness ...

For info, on a 100% pattern, I arrive at 17FL in SDR mode.


----------



## hamster71

Wookii said:


> Jim gave you the button sequence to activate the 'Live' mode: Press in sequence - 'Menu' '0' '5' '3' '2'


oh ok, I did not understand like that, sometimes the translation is not perfect, I'm francophone ...

I also want to thank you all for your help and answers, I appreciate very much .

I will add that the latest version of the DTM is great, the dark scenes are no longer clogged and clear scenes very legible. which was not the case on the old version of the DTM.

I love my Lumagen, it lacks more than the settings images, sharpness, dnr, etc .. for it to be perfect. It's been more than three years that I wait for them :frown:...


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 082219*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 082219*
Posted 090419 
Bug fix for test patterns if output vertical top shrink is being used. 
Bugfix for restoring Alt-1.85 input aspect after displaying test pattern. 
Bugfix for *Input: Options: Lipsync *menu not being able to change setting. 
Added some more audio EDID format options under *Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Audio EDID*. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> The new Spears & Munsil disc is incredibly useful when setting up DTM. The ability to be able to switch between 1000 & 4000 nit mastered demo footage on the fly makes adjusting the DTM HIGH/LOW parameters very easy and results in a very consistent image.


I hope you don’t mean that you are trying to make them look the same. The S&M disc was graded to a very high APL and each step up should be noticeably higher in brightness unlike most motion picture content.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I hope you don’t mean that you are trying to make them look the same. The S&M disc was graded to a very high APL and each step up should be noticeably higher in brightness unlike most motion picture content.


I mean the access to lots of varied imagery with which to adjust settings. And the ability to switch between mastering levels means you don't need to go digging for the right demo discs.


----------



## Mike_WI

*JVC Projector Firmware Update -- Upgraded HDR Performance*

FYI...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-d...ectors-comparison-thread-75.html#post58516190


> Did you see the new feature list for JVC?
> 
> New features for November firmware update
> Frame by frame DTM HDR Can also be set up for scene by scene.
> 12 bit to 18 bit
> Anamorphic D (DCR owners can rejoice)
> SpyderX support for autocal
> More support for screen selection.


Primary data:
Sep 5, 2019
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html



> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> 
> JVC Projector Firmware Update
> Delivers Significantly Upgraded HDR Performance
> 
> *New Frame Adapt HDR analyzes HDR10 content frame by frame and automatically optimizes brightness.*
> 
> 
> LONG BEACH, Calif, September 5, 2019 – Underscoring its commitment to offer the best possible home theater experience, JVC today announced a firmware update for its line of Native 4K D-ILA projectors that delivers a significant advancement in HDR performance. JVC will demonstrate this feature at the 2019 CEDIA Expo, September 12 - 14 in Denver at booth 2536.
> 
> This feature forward update adds JVC’s new Frame Adapt HDR function, which dynamically analyzes HDR10 picture level frame by frame and automatically adjusts the brightness & color to optimize HDR performance for each frame.
> 
> Because content brightness varies, a fixed setting cannot deliver optimum image quality. JVC’s new Frame Adapt HDR solves this by instantly analyzing the peak brightness of each frame or scene using a proprietary JVC algorithm, and adjusting dynamic range to provide the best possible HDR image. Frame Adapt HDR works with any HDR10 content, even content that does not contain brightness metadata (Max CLL/Max FALL).
> 
> *Main Features*
> 
> *Delivers images closer to reality*
> Dynamic range is adjusted in real time for optimal image projection. At the same time, saturation, hue, and brightness is analyzed and optimal corrections are made, which reduces color loss.
> 
> As a result, even within a single program, darker scenes have deeper blacks with enhanced color. Bright scenes have higher peak brightness without color loss while maintaining black level. All content is reproduced closer to what the human eye is capable of seeing.
> 
> *Compatible with all HDR10 content*
> Frame Adapt HDR adjustments are based on analysis of the input HDR10 signal. Therefore, it is effective on content with or without mastering information. As a result, all HDR10 content can be enjoyed with greater dynamic range and image quality than ever before.
> 
> *Smooth gradation with 18-bit level gamma accuracy*
> The gamma processing accuracy, which in the past was based on 12-bit equivalent, has been improved to 18-bit and as a result gradation performance is dramatically improved. In any given scene, it reduces the banding effect in the bright portions and the crushing of dark portions. This provides accurate, smooth gradation along with higher average peak level brightness and increased color saturation, which has previously been a challenge with HDR content.
> 
> *Other Improvements*
> Support for 16x9 content when using a Panamorph Paladin DCR lens (adds Anamorphic D). It is now possible to leave a Paladin DCR lens in position and view both ultra-wide and 16x9 content correctly.
> Auto Calibration support for Spyder X sensor.
> Adds new presets to screen adjustment function.
> The firmware will be available for download at no charge in October for the DLA-NX9, DLA-NX7 and DLA-NX5 as well as the DLA-RS3000, DLA-RS2000 and DLA-RS1000.
> 
> Link for download: https://https://www3.jvckenwood.com...a-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/
> 
> About JVCKENWOOD USA Corporation
> 
> JVCKENWOOD USA Corporation is a wholly-owned subsidiary of JVCKENWOOD Corporation and is a leading developer of imaging, home and car entertainment and navigation products for the consumer market, two-way radio communications systems for public safety, private industry and amateur users, and video equipment for the broadcast and professional markets. For detailed information, call JVCKENWOOD USA at 1-310-639-9000 or visit us at www.jvckenwood.com/en.html/, www.kenwood.com/usa and www.jvc.com


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> I mean the access to lots of varied imagery with which to adjust settings. And the ability to switch between mastering levels means you don't need to go digging for the right demo discs.


I like that you can select different mastering levels, but the content tends to be pretty high APL most of the time, so it may not be the best solution for setting levels specifically, but it certainly is a great piece of material to verify your settings afterward to ensure that everything consistently looks good and natural. I like this disc and the JVC HDR Demo disc for this because they are natural photography with very little stylization so they are good for second checking settings to ensure color, contrast and highlights are preserved naturally. If something is off, it typically shows up pretty well.


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> Thanks Jim, and everybody else who replied. The values you recommend are exactly what I had with the old DTM and worked great. But everybody says that the new DTM requires different values and indeed when I updated the software and tested the picture with the old values looked a bit dim and lacking punch. So I find it interesting that everybody pretty much recommends settings that worked well with the old DTM. Is it not true that the new DTM requires adjustment to settings?


While you might like to tweak with the new DTM, we actually tried to adjust the "on screen settings to transfer function results" so that people could keep their old settings and have excellent results. We did not want people to need to change settings and I think we came pretty close to this goal.

I ended up with the same Max Light = 400 I used most before the latest DTM release. I find the default of Low-set ratio (15) works well, but I have increased it in my system to 24. I measure 71 nits off the screen and this gets me to about 2X for the Low-set effective max light, and about 5.5 for the High-set Max Light (High set ratio still = 0).

Still personal taste but now we feel comfortable in recommending the setting ratios more explicitly. That is 2X for low-set and 4x to 8x for high set, with most people I have talked to being happy with the high-set multiple in the 5 to 6 range.


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

Hey Lumagen users,

There is a beta version of LightSpace CMS where its been added option to Lumagen processors to upload 1D LUT separately from 3D LUT.










This should improve the attainable greyscale.

As the 1D LUT is positioned after the 3D LUT in the video processing pipeline of Lumagen, you must profile and upload the 1D LUT first, and then re-profile with the 1D active, and upload the 3D.

The 1D+3D option works as before.

I have posted about this beta to the LightSpace thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-...ema-calibration-software-79.html#post58517394


----------



## bobof

ConnecTEDDD said:


> Hey Lumagen users,
> 
> There is a beta version of LightSpace CMS where its been added option to Lumagen processors to upload 1D LUT separately from 3D LUT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This should improve the attainable greyscale.
> 
> As the 1D LUT is positioned after the 3D LUT in the video processing pipeline of Lumagen, you must profile and upload the 1D LUT first, and then re-profile with the 1D active, and upload the 3D.
> 
> The 1D+3D option works as before.
> 
> I have posted about this beta to the LightSpace thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-...ema-calibration-software-79.html#post58517394


Does the "null cube" option take notice of the setting of the dropdown also? So if you have "null cube" selected, and "3D only" in the dropdown, does it only clear the 3DLUT and leave the 1D LUT as-is?


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

bobof said:


> Does the "null cube" option take notice of the setting of the dropdown also? So if you have "null cube" selected, and "3D only" in the dropdown, does it only clear the 3DLUT and leave the 1D LUT as-is?


No, Null Cube always Nulls everything.

Upload a physical Null LUT to reset an individual LUT - 1D or 3D.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> While you might like to tweak with the new DTM, we actually tried to adjust the "on screen settings to transfer function results" so that people could keep their old settings and have excellent results. We did not want people to need to change settings and I think we came pretty close to this goal.
> 
> I ended up with the same Max Light = 400 I used most before the latest DTM release. I find the default of Low-set ratio (15) works well, but I have increased it in my system to 24. I measure 71 nits off the screen and this gets me to about 2X for the Low-set effective max light, and about 5.5 for the High-set Max Light (High set ratio still = 0).
> 
> Still personal taste but now we feel comfortable in recommending the setting ratios more explicitly. That is 2X for low-set and 4x to 8x for high set, with most people I have talked to being happy with the high-set multiple in the 5 to 6 range.


Although we have different projectors, I ended up having almost identical settings to yours (400 max light, 23 Low-set ratio). Using your algorithm for adjusting max light as a function of nits off the screen is gold and I strongly recommend it. Thanks again!


----------



## wjchan

Mark_H said:


> The new Spears & Munsil disc is incredibly useful when setting up DTM. The ability to be able to switch between 1000 & 4000 nit mastered demo footage on the fly makes adjusting the DTM HIGH/LOW parameters very easy and results in a very consistent image.


With DTM on, what are we expected to see in the horses in snow scene at 1000, 4000, and 10000 nits when watching on a PJ with 100 nits measured brightness? The scene clips at both 4000 and 10000 for me.


----------



## Mark_H

Personally I make adjustments to make the image look as natural as possible: if there is egregious clipping (as there can be in that scene) I try to deal with it and find that those settings translate well onto my film/TV viewing.


----------



## beastaudio

Mark_H said:


> The new Spears & Munsil disc is incredibly useful when setting up DTM. The ability to be able to switch between 1000 & 4000 nit mastered demo footage on the fly makes adjusting the DTM HIGH/LOW parameters very easy and results in a very consistent image.


Which begs another question tho with the SM disc....do you have a saved setting for calibrating to 1000nit for contrast and brightness then another saved preset for 4000nit that you use depending on the title? I got into the disc the other night and immediately stopped because I couldn't decide how to go about it.


----------



## Mark_H

beastaudio said:


> Which begs another question tho with the SM disc....do you have a saved setting for calibrating to 1000nit for contrast and brightness then another saved preset for 4000nit that you use depending on the title? I got into the disc the other night and immediately stopped because I couldn't decide how to go about it.


Brightness and contrast are separate from DTM in that DTM sits ON TOP of your normal calibration and maps the HDR onto your underlying calibration.


----------



## LJG

Has anyone noticed that AA does not work on Directv?


----------



## bobof

LJG said:


> Has anyone noticed that AA does not work on Directv?


Try with AA is set to "Image" and not "Image+HDMI". I recall someone (maybe @Gordon Fraser ) mentioning that the HDMI metadata causes issues with AA for some set top boxes.


----------



## LJG

bobof said:


> Try with AA is set to "Image" and not "Image+HDMI". I recall someone (maybe @Gordon Fraser ) mentioning that the HDMI metadata causes issues with AA for some set top boxes.


Thanks for the suggestion but I already have it set to Image, I am wondering if its something in the black bars on Directv....


----------



## Wookii

Given how DTM has changed, what are most people now targeting as peak white nits prior to calibration, for a projector.

Previously under IM I targeted around 50FtL/170nits. With DTM, I see from some of the comments that many people are now targeting lower peak nits. Owning a JVC, I can of course clamp down the iris and get more native contrast if a lower peak target is ideal.

So I was just wondering what the general consensus is, if a wide range of target peak nits is readily available, what is the optimum?


----------



## msleb

Some questions for Sony 5000 owners: 

I dont have a huge screen-- 120" wide at 2.4 AR, with a throw of 18'. Ken W measured 123.5 nits. What is everyone using for their Display Max Light and DTM settings? I had been choosing 300 nits as display max light, but also note that Jim P and others using JVC, which should be less bright than the Sony, are setting Max Light at 400. 

Jim stated "Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation." Given what was measured, these ranges would equate to ~ 500-1000 (4-8x), or, using the optimal range of 5-6x would result in ~600-750.

However, elsewhere I read: "you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value". 

These seem to be contradictory- in one place the Display Max light should be set from 4-8x measured, and optimally 5-6x measured, and then subsequently it says to make this value 4x measured. 

So, in my case, measured at 123.5 nits, do I set display max light to 500 (more accurately 490)?



And, for the Sony users, what is the consensus on: 

*DLev* (I understand Jim now suggests setting this to 8 in order to fully ignore Static MaxCLL)

*Ratio* This one still confuses me. I read Jim's suggestion to an earlier post "For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.
"
Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column. Sorry for a dumb question, but how/where does one see this? What are Sony users finding for this value? And, I should therefore target a ration where my max light at the selected ratio is ~ 247? Jim suggests 15-24, but said he thinks 24 is better now.

And, per above, high set ratio should be 0, right?

I can’t find the default values for these, and would rather not ‘reset to defaults’ globally because I have tweaked gamma and black levels. What are defaults for the following, and does anyone use settings other than default with good effect?

*Shape* 

*Transition* 

*Gamma* 

*Black* 

I like to use the MEM ABCD to quickly toggle between a few presets (eg Mem D might have gamma 1, black -1 to increase apparent contrast/improve apparent black levels). Am I correct that the setting I might want to play around with the most is Ratio? My recollection from Jim’s recent comments was that changing shape and transition would likely cause more harm than good.

Finally, I believe the default settings breaks low end at source max 2000. Does everyone leave this at default? If not, what value is used and how is it changed?

Sorry for so many questions but would love to wrap my head around all of this, short of trial and eror.


----------



## jrp

msleb:

I am pretty sure the recommendation of 4X for Max Light predates the 5 to 6, and was for an earlier release. Does not really matter at this point. With current DTM we believe people may vary in their personal preference and choose something in the range of 4x (brighter) to 8x (more color saturation) for Max Light. As I mentioned after much experimentation I am at about 5.5x. So this is somewhat "trial and error" as you suggest, but this is important so you can optimize to your personal preference.

The 2X nits settings for Low-set "effective Display Max Light" seems to be a good number with less variance than the CMS Max Light.

===== 

Note that for DTM, the "Cross Over Point" used for Static Tone Mapping is not used at all.


----------



## ShaharT

Hi, a complete newbie question, sorry for it being so basic.
Got the Lumagen Radiance pro 4446 installed and working great.
Tried to upgrade the firmware. Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
What am I missing?
Thanks!


----------



## sjschaff

ShaharT said:


> Hi, a complete newbie question, sorry for it being so basic.
> Got the Lumagen Radiance pro 4446 installed and working great.
> Tried to upgrade the firmware. Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
> Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
> The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
> Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
> Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
> What am I missing?
> Thanks!



Assume you're following Tech Tip 6. Worse case, either the Lumagen's physical port or associated electronics or more likely the cable you have is not performing as intended (you can verify this by testing it with an external powered hard drive, if you have one, that uses USB-B connector).



Try the following to see if the Lumagen is being "seen" by Windows 10: ensure that the Lumagen is powered on (might want to disconnect power and reconnect, just to ensure all is well with the unit, and you're able to see input to your monitor, and use the remotes Menu button to get details). Then plug the supplied USB cable into your computer as well as Lumagen, and power it up the computer. Device manager should show that the Lumagen is using a Com port. If not, it's likely the cable is bad, so try another. If the cable is fine and you've been able to validate that your computer can communicate via the USB connection to another USB device (e.g. disk drive) then it's possible the Lumagen's physical port isn't working. By the way, under normal conditions, even when the Lumagen is not on (that is the system has not booted up) the Windows system should still "see" that the USB cable is connected to the Lumagen and show in Device Manager a Com port line item and under USB there should be an entry for some sort of serial converter I believe.



All comes down to a process of elimination...


----------



## KarlKlammer

ShaharT said:


> Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
> Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
> The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
> Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
> Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
> What am I missing?


 You could try to install the latest FTDI driver. This worked for me.
https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm


----------



## ShaharT

KarlKlammer said:


> You could try to install the latest FTDI driver. This worked for me.
> https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm


Thanks so much! Issue solved. Firmware upgrade done.


----------



## darksets

msleb said:


> Some questions for Sony 5000 owners:
> 
> I dont have a huge screen-- 120" wide at 2.4 AR, with a throw of 18'. Ken W measured 123.5 nits. What is everyone using for their Display Max Light and DTM settings? I had been choosing 300 nits as display max light, but also note that Jim P and others using JVC, which should be less bright than the Sony, are setting Max Light at 400.
> 
> Jim stated "Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation." Given what was measured, these ranges would equate to ~ 500-1000 (4-8x), or, using the optimal range of 5-6x would result in ~600-750.
> 
> However, elsewhere I read: "you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value".
> 
> These seem to be contradictory- in one place the Display Max light should be set from 4-8x measured, and optimally 5-6x measured, and then subsequently it says to make this value 4x measured.
> 
> So, in my case, measured at 123.5 nits, do I set display max light to 500 (more accurately 490)?
> 
> 
> 
> And, for the Sony users, what is the consensus on:
> 
> *DLev* (I understand Jim now suggests setting this to 8 in order to fully ignore Static MaxCLL)
> 
> *Ratio* This one still confuses me. I read Jim's suggestion to an earlier post "For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.
> "
> Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column. Sorry for a dumb question, but how/where does one see this? What are Sony users finding for this value? And, I should therefore target a ration where my max light at the selected ratio is ~ 247? Jim suggests 15-24, but said he thinks 24 is better now.
> 
> And, per above, high set ratio should be 0, right?
> 
> I can’t find the default values for these, and would rather not ‘reset to defaults’ globally because I have tweaked gamma and black levels. What are defaults for the following, and does anyone use settings other than default with good effect?
> 
> *Shape*
> 
> *Transition*
> 
> *Gamma*
> 
> *Black*
> 
> I like to use the MEM ABCD to quickly toggle between a few presets (eg Mem D might have gamma 1, black -1 to increase apparent contrast/improve apparent black levels). Am I correct that the setting I might want to play around with the most is Ratio? My recollection from Jim’s recent comments was that changing shape and transition would likely cause more harm than good.
> 
> Finally, I believe the default settings breaks low end at source max 2000. Does everyone leave this at default? If not, what value is used and how is it changed?
> 
> Sorry for so many questions but would love to wrap my head around all of this, short of trial and eror.


I have a Sony 995. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I ended up setting Display Max Light at 400 (about 5xlight output in nits). The next most important
setting in my opinion is low end effective Ratio, and I set that to 23 following jrp's recommendation to have effective Max Light at 2xlight output in nits. You can see the effective Max Light at the Lumagen menu for setting the Ratio, it's shown as a "commentary line".


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> This is not normal. However, note that this might be scene-specific. The Radiance Pro DTM analyzes each scene. So for a given set of parameters a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movies should look similar to a 500 nit scene in a 4000 nit movie, but a 100 nit scene in the 4000 nit movie can look darker than a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movie.
> 
> As a suggestion, go into the MENU->Options->HDR Setup on latest release and reset the HDR parameters to default. The set the "DLev" = 8 so that the movies reported MaxCLL is not affecting the brightness (this is a recent change in our recommendation). Then use a bright movie (for example Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29, or "The Meg" in a bright scene) and set the MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light appropriately.
> 
> After doing this look a scenes from 1000 nit movies and 4000 nit movies to see if scenes with similar MaxCLL values look similar. You can see the current frame's MaxCLL and MaxY using the debug command MENU 0532 "Live" mode. The best comparison may be for scenes with a MaxY of about 500.





giomania said:


> Jim, I would just like to confirm the recommended workflow is to turn on DTM and set DLev to 8 prior to setting the CMS Max Light?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


Jim?


----------



## sjschaff

KarlKlammer said:


> You could try to install the latest FTDI driver. This worked for me.
> https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm



This surprises me. Would have thought that Win10, assuming updated to latest level, would include the necessary serial to USB signal support for all current and legacy systems that can run Win10.
Guess I've been spending far too much time in the Apple world this past decade to recall the days of fixing your own automobile, that is Windows. I only use Windows for the "odd" unsupported app these days under Boot Camp.


Maybe some day Lumagen will have a Mac version...


----------



## beastaudio

Mark_H said:


> Brightness and contrast are separate from DTM in that DTM sits ON TOP of your normal calibration and maps the HDR onto your underlying calibration.


Correct, however the S-M disc allows patterns for 1000 or 4000 nits depending on the display. Being a PJ I immediately went to the 1000 nit selection for the patterns, but then got curious if I should have another saved preset and use the 4000 nit patterns and save it to use for 4000 nit mastered movies...


----------



## Mark_H

beastaudio said:


> Correct, however the S-M disc allows patterns for 1000 or 4000 nits depending on the display. Being a PJ I immediately went to the 1000 nit selection for the patterns, but then got curious if I should have another saved preset and use the 4000 nit patterns and save it to use for 4000 nit mastered movies...


You *could* use seperate CMS memories to do this, but whether you'd gain anything PQ-wise, I don't think so. And the big downside is you'd have to manually select the CMS after checking the mastering level...


----------



## Sittler27

I currently use Madvr so only my mkv rips (which is like 60% of what I watch) have the improvements it offers.

I was curious about what the same could do for my other sources, namely HDTV and AppleTV.

Can anyone comment on if the improvements a Lumagen offers for these types of sources matches the level of improvements in pq I have seen going from my previous player (Oppo 203) to a HTPC with madvr setup?

Does it really sharpen up 1080p HDTV content to the same degree, or is it much less of a degree due to the source content not being as good originally as mkv/bluray rips would be?


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> I currently use Madvr so only my mkv rips (which is like 60% of what I watch) have the improvements it offers.
> 
> I was curious about what the same could do for my other sources, namely HDTV and AppleTV.
> 
> Can anyone comment on if the improvements a Lumagen offers for these types of sources matches the level of improvements in pq I have seen going from my previous player (Oppo 203) to a HTPC with madvr setup?
> 
> Does it really sharpen up 1080p HDTV content to the same degree, or is it much less of a degree due to the source content not being as good originally as mkv/bluray rips would be?


The Lumagen has "No ring scaling" which is an excellent scaler but devoid of sharpening / detail recovery features, and there aren't currently additional sharpening controls on the Pro units - the older units did have sharpening and some other bits of processing (I believe from the Gennum VXP processor). For 1080p content it does feature Darbee processing.

The main benefits I find with my AppleTV are the colour / gamma correction, HDR tone mapping, and aspect ratio processing.


----------



## OzHDHT

sjschaff said:


> This surprises me. Would have thought that Win10, assuming updated to latest level, would include the necessary serial to USB signal support for all current and legacy systems that can run Win10.
> Guess I've been spending far too much time in the Apple world this past decade to recall the days of fixing your own automobile, that is Windows. I only use Windows for the "odd" unsupported app these days under Boot Camp.
> 
> 
> Maybe some day Lumagen will have a Mac version...




I have tons of problems trying to get my USB-Serial driver to operate stably on my Windows 10 HTPC - Lumagen. I've been through periods where it takes umpteen goes to sort it out and get the update working despite the device manager telling me Com 3 is good to go. You can also rip out drivers re-install, pull down the FTDI driver, etc and still have issues. More recently, rather than take what can be hours to get an update to actually work, I'm grabbing an old Windows XP laptop that sits in my equipment closet and using that with no problems whatsoever. So yeah in the first time in a while I've actually stepped around Windows 10 to do something.


----------



## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> I have tons of problems trying to get my USB-Serial driver to operate stably on my Windows 10 HTPC - Lumagen. I've been through periods where it takes umpteen goes to sort it out and get the update working despite the device manager telling me Com 3 is good to go. You can also rip out drivers re-install, pull down the FTDI driver, etc and still have issues. More recently, rather than take what can be hours to get an update to actually work, I'm grabbing an old Windows XP laptop that sits in my equipment closet and using that with no problems whatsoever. So yeah in the first time in a while I've actually stepped around Windows 10 to do something.




Try the 2nd fastest setting instead of the fastest setting. I never have a problem downloading firmware updates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Try the 2nd fastest setting instead of the fastest setting. I never have a problem downloading firmware updates.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Don't worry Craig, you know me, I'm a PC guy from way back . Been down every route, and even with the top spec of the MSI motherboard in my HTPC, it still is incredibly finicky with USB-Serial port drivers. The little old laptop handles it with no issues. I've literally spent a period over a month persisting with trying methods to get the HTPC to simply work to do update -which itself is extremely simple if it is given I can leave the USB connected in the rack between the two. I might come back to it again at some stage but when you're literally ripping all of the USB drivers out and starting fresh only to still see constant failed to connect errors off the bat in the updater, there isn't a whole lot more I can do. It's nothing I'm losing sleep over though since the old laptop takes all of 3 minutes more work to use instead.


----------



## hamster71

Same for me, I have never managed to update via the USB port. I use an RS232 / USB adapter and it works very well.

I would still like to be able to update directly from the USB port. The best thing would have been to have an RJ45 plug and be able to update directly by the network.

I was surprised when the Lumagen Pro came out, it does not offer this feature, because it is true that a Lumagen update is not so simple when it has never been done.



bobof said:


> The Lumagen has "No ring scaling" which is an excellent scaler but devoid of sharpening / detail recovery features, and there aren't currently additional sharpening controls on the Pro units - the older units did have sharpening and some other bits of processing (I believe from the Gennum VXP processor). For 1080p content it does feature Darbee processing.
> 
> The main benefits I find with my AppleTV are the colour / gamma correction, HDR tone mapping, and aspect ratio processing.


Now that the DTM is in focus, I hope Lumagen will finally look at the sharpness filters ... I know a lot of people are waiting for them, at least in Europe. In the USA it seems unfortunately that it is not the priority of the users to what I understood.

Some people have not bought the Lumagen Pro because of this point, it's a shame. Especially that there is the Envy that will come out, suddenly all these potential buyers will now wait to see what will propose this competitor Lumagen Pro.


----------



## jrp

giomania:

To answer you question:

Enable HDR Mapping as previously discussed, turn DTM on (the default), and set DLev = 8 (default is 5 going to change to 8 - might already be 8 the latest). Then set the Max Light (make sure "High-Set Ratio = 0) to about 5 to 6 times measured output in nits. Then set Low-set Ratio so that the Low-set effective-max-light is about 2X the measures light output in nits.

Then check dark and very bright content to confirm all look good.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> giomania:
> 
> 
> 
> To answer you question:
> 
> 
> 
> Enable HDR Mapping as previously discussed, turn DTM on (the default), and set DLev = 8 (default is 5 going to change to 8 - might already be 8 the latest). Then set the Max Light (make sure "High-Set Ratio = 0) to about 5 to 6 times measured output in nits. Then set Low-set Ratio so that the Low-set effective-max-light is about 2X the measures light output in nits.
> 
> 
> 
> Then check dark and very bright content to confirm all look good.


I'm wondering that why don't you change the UI so that users could only input their real peak nits to one place, and then all the calculations would be done in the background? Then maybe put a slider where users can adjust the average brightness to suit their preference.

Should be easy to do, and would be a lot straight forward for users to adjust.

Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## Eventidal

MDesigns said:


> I'm wondering that why don't you change the UI so that users could only input their real peak nits to one place, and then all the calculations would be done in the background? Then maybe put a slider where users can adjust the average brightness to suit their preference.
> 
> Should be easy to do, and would be a lot straight forward for users to adjust.
> 
> Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla


I have to agree: It would be nice if all of the HDR settings would be in one place without using Alt buttons and different sub-menus.


----------



## Sandel

Today I learned that the new and upcoming competitor for the Lumagen, the MadVR's ENVY, will feature "geometry correction" which is supposed to make image "warping" possible which I'd need for my curved screen..
Is this something the Lumagen will feature as well in the foreseeable future?


----------



## hamster71

I just saw the prices and features of both versions of the Envy and I think it's not really a Lumagen competitor eventually. In my opinion, it is aimed at another type of clientele.

I kept an eye on the Envy but I must say that now it does not really interest me anymore and my Lumagen Pro will stay for many years in my rack.


----------



## Ash Sharma

You could turn off the DTM in the Lumagen Pro and get its output to the Envy for Tone Mapping


----------



## audioguy

Given the Envy's price point, I think they really have their work cut out for them - to say the least!!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

hamster71 said:


> I just saw the prices and features of both versions of the Envy and I think it's not really a Lumagen competitor eventually. In my opinion, it is aimed at another type of clientele.
> 
> 
> 
> I kept an eye on the Envy but I must say that now it does not really interest me anymore and my Lumagen Pro will stay for many years in my rack.


I have to say they cannot compete with Lumagen at all, I was the demo CEDIA today in the morning, but it was impossible to say it did greater job on DTM than Lumagen, the same relates to upscaling. But this requires a separate demo in a proper installed room and have both Lumagen and Envy close to each other. But price wise, I personally believe it is overpriced. Flagship should retail around 5-6k and base model 2.5k. I just don't see the market where people would select Envy towards Lumagen Pro, which is cheaper. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Sandel said:


> Today I learned that the new and upcoming competitor for the Lumagen, the MadVR's ENVY, will feature "geometry correction" which is supposed to make image "warping" possible which I'd need for my curved screen..
> Is this something the Lumagen will feature as well in the foreseeable future?


You are probably 0.01÷ of users with this request. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandel

SoulOfUniverse said:


> You are probably 0.01÷ of users with this request.


Maybe. Or maybe not.
I don't think curved screens are such a rare species...


----------



## audioguy

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I have to say they cannot compete with Lumagen at all, I was the demo CEDIA today in the morning, but it was impossible to say it did greater job on DTM than Lumagen, the same relates to upscaling. But this requires a separate demo in a proper installed room and have both Lumagen and Envy close to each other. But price wise, I personally believe it is overpriced. Flagship should retail around 5-6k and base model 2.5k. I just don't see the market where people would select Envy towards Lumagen Pro, which is cheaper.


Totally agree. To grab market share they need to meet or exceed what the Lumagen can do for much less $$. I must confess I was surprised to hear about their pricing. On the other hand, this would not be the first time I was proved WRONG.


----------



## Soccerdude

Is this Faroudja in steroids?..


----------



## Wookii

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I have to say they cannot compete with Lumagen at all, I was the demo CEDIA today in the morning, but it was impossible to say it did greater job on DTM than Lumagen, the same relates to upscaling. But this requires a separate demo in a proper installed room and have both Lumagen and Envy close to each other. But price wise, I personally believe it is overpriced. Flagship should retail around 5-6k and base model 2.5k. I just don't see the market where people would select Envy towards Lumagen Pro, which is cheaper.


To be honest Serge, I think you are probably right. I lost a little interest when I found out it only had a single input, no virtual inputs/preset memories, and essentially a single CMS. As it stands, I don't think the Envy is a compelling purchase.

I wouldn't expect a significant difference between the Envy and Lumagen when it comes to DTM, the development of both system will likely converge on a common end point, if they haven't done so already.

I'm sure with the Envy's processing power, it can probably achieve better upscaling than the Pro, particularly as I believe some of their algo's do pixel level enhancement during the process. The amount of perceptual difference that probably adds, is not likely to be massive though.

In this new 4K world, this might be an area where Lumagen can refresh their no-ring scaling and add some 'enhancement' options to improve the perception of additional fine detail recovery during scaling. But again I wouldn't expect this to make ground breaking differences.


----------



## Mark_H

I've noticed that my Apple TV now converts all SDR material into an HDR wrapper if the display is in HDR mode. You can check this by looking at MaxCLL - if it's 250 then it's very likely that the source is SDR. With DTM the results generally look very good indeed. I wonder whether Lumagen could add an SDR->HDR mode that does the same thing?


----------



## Die Zwei

Sandel said:


> Maybe. Or maybe not.
> I don't think curved screens are such a rare species...


Now we´re 2 already, adding up to 0,02%. 
Image warping adds to the features i like about the Envy. Technically, it´s not really complicated and doesn´t eat much performance. And since we´re talking about equipment that do image processing anyway, i wonder why this is not already a common feature....


----------



## Sandel

hockyAVS said:


> Technically, it´s not really complicated and doesn´t eat much performance. And since we´re talking about equipment that do image processing anyway, i wonder why this is not already a common feature....



It still has a downside as you can only deal with a given maximum resolution. This means that you're losing resolution once you start warping the picture within the given picture coordinates. So you can only shrink it, but never expand it. But for slight adjustments like the correction of barrel distortion and such, it should be ok.


----------



## Mark_H

Given the "do no harm" axiom of video processing, I cannot imagine that digital warping isn't going to be detrimental to the image...


----------



## Die Zwei

Sandel said:


> It still has a downside as you can only deal with a given maximum resolution. This means that you're losing resolution once you start warping the picture within the given picture coordinates. So you can only shrink it, but never expand it. But for slight adjustments like the correction of barrel distortion and such, it should be ok.


Sure. As always you have to trade between the pros and cons.
If you don´t do any geometrical correction on a curved screen, you get a distorted picture or lose content (or both).
So i prefer to correct that. And if you do that with an highend scaler like a Lumagen or Envy, loss of picture quality shouldn´t be an issue.

Some projectors already have that functionality included. However, most of them lack the ability to do different adjustments for the top and the bottom of the screen (distortion is different on top and bottom if you don´t place the projector directly into the center of the screen - which isn´t an option for most installations).


----------



## Die Zwei

Mark_H said:


> Given the "do no harm" axiom of video processing, I cannot imagine that digital warping isn't going to be detrimental to the image...


Well, in that sense, a curved screen is already an issue in itself 
Like with every image processing, if you do it right, it can even improve the picture quaility. Basically, it´s just a pixel transformation.
Actually, it´s pretty common in event projection when projecting to pillars, objects like cubes, buildings, etc. (of course in that case, picture quality is not the major concern)


----------



## Sandel

There are already some picture processing algorithms inside the Lumagen that pixel purists could complain about, like all the Darbee stuff, that (if overused) can severly damage the picture quality.
So I'd say the Lumagen is a versatile tool that CAN help to improve and adjust the picture, IF wisely used.

And an option to correct geometrics would simply complete the offered toolset. At least in my opinion.

BTW: The ENVY only has ONE HDMI input, so it can't be used as a high end switch. A clear win for the Lumagen in this regard.


----------



## audioguy

Just curious:

So given the Envy's current hardware limitation of one HDMI input and price that is not any less than a Lumagen, why would anyone buy an Envy? While it apparently has better 1080 up-scaling (which may or may not be visible from a screen distance or more away), the move is toward 4K and then 8K. Sure, broadcast TV as most Netflix/Amazon/Hulu etc material is 1080P (or less), but for what may be an incremental (and maybe not visible) improvement, I'm still not sure I get what all of the forecasted Envy excitement was about.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> I've noticed that my Apple TV now converts all SDR material into an HDR wrapper if the display is in HDR mode. You can check this by looking at MaxCLL - if it's 250 then it's very likely that the source is SDR. With DTM the results generally look very good indeed. I wonder whether Lumagen could add an SDR->HDR mode that does the same thing?


I haven’t seen this. For your setup of the ATV put the output to 4K SDR 60 and set the match content settings to On for both range and rate. This should eliminate and HDR wrapper for non-HDR content.


----------



## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> Just curious:
> 
> So given the Envy's current hardware limitation of one HDMI input and price that is not any less than a Lumagen, why would anyone buy an Envy? While it apparently has better 1080 up-scaling (which may or may not be visible from a screen distance or more away), the move is toward 4K and then 8K. Sure, broadcast TV as most Netflix/Amazon/Hulu etc material is 1080P (or less), but for what may be an incremental (and maybe not visible) improvement, I'm still not sure I get what all of the forecasted Envy excitement was about.


Bit off-topic in a Lumagen thread, but in short:
Recently, madVR (the software Envy is based on) is mostly renown for it´s excellent HDR dynamic tone-mapping. In addition, it can do excellent up- and downscaling and a couple of extra things (black bar detection, anamorphic stretch, etc.). Downside up to now: it can only process what´s played back on the (Windows) machine, madVR is running on.
Envy is madVR on a black-box you put between the source and the display/projector (that´s the reason it only has one HDMI-input and one output, it´s not supposed to be a switching device like a Lumagen). Now, the benefits of madVR (plus some extras like image warping) are available for any media-device on the market.


----------



## audioguy

hockyAVS said:


> Bit off-topic in a Lumagen thread, but in short:
> Recently, madVR (the software Envy is based on) is mostly renown for it´s excellent HDR dynamic tone-mapping. In addition, it can do excellent up- and downscaling and a couple of extra things (black bar detection, anamorphic stretch, etc.). Downside up to now: it can only process what´s played back on the (Windows) machine, madVR is running on.
> Envy is madVR on a black-box you put between the source and the display/projector (that´s the reason it only has one HDMI-input and one output, it´s not supposed to be a switching device like a Lumagen). Now, the benefits of madVR (plus some extras like image warping) are available for any media-device on the market.


I agree this is the Lumagen thread. But the Envy has (had?) the potential to be a serious Lumagen competitor so was not sure where to post this. If I posted it in the Envy thread, it would be just as OT since I would be comparing it to the Lumagen.

But the question is still the same. Is the Envy HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping superior to what is currently available on the Lumagen? The only comments I have seen so far are based upon someone who saw the Envy Demo and was not overly impressed. As for black bar detection (Auto Aspect detection in the Lumagen) and anamorphic stretch, the Lumagen can do those as well. My question once again: If the Envy was market ready and if I were in the market for such a device, what is the compelling reason for me to pick it over the Lumagen? Competition is great for consumers so I am hoping it does offer serious competition.


----------



## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> My question once again: If the Envy was market ready and if I were in the market for such a device, what is the compelling reason for me to pick it over the Lumagen? Competition is great for consumers so I am hoping it does offer serious competition.


The Envy (and already the madVR) dynamic tone mapping is supposed to be the best on the market.
The comment you are referring to is based on the display currently at the CEDIA booth which is not suitable to do a judgement.
So we need to wait until test units are available and somebody does a proper comparison i guess.

EDIT: But i think it´s not about "which one is better Lumagen or Envy". I think they are different products with a different purpose.


----------



## SJHT

I hope this thread doesn’t become a JVC/Sony type thing...


----------



## audioguy

SJHT said:


> I hope this thread doesn’t become a JVC/Sony type thing...


Fair enough. I will post no more questions about the Envy.


----------



## Eventidal

It would be easiest for all of us to open a"Lumagen Radiance Pro / MadVR Envy DTM comparison" thread...


----------



## tigerhonaker

Eventidal said:


> It would be easiest for all of us to open a"Lumagen Radiance Pro / MadVR Envy DTM comparison" thread...


I hope that does take place for us that are still in the process of collecting information on those units.

Terry


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Eventidal said:


> It would be easiest for all of us to open a"Lumagen Radiance Pro / MadVR Envy DTM comparison" thread...


It's too early for this thread, as we don't have Envy boxes in hands yet, but I'll do later on my HTPC comparison I have 1080ti which is 11tflops and will set it up properly and will see how it compares to Lumagen 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It's too early for this thread, as we don't have Envy boxes in hands yet, but I'll do later on my HTPC comparison I have 1080ti which is 11tflops and will set it up properly and will see how it compares to Lumagen


That might be helpful. After all, Envy is supposed to be "MadVR In A Box".


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> I've noticed that my Apple TV now converts all SDR material into an HDR wrapper if the display is in HDR mode. You can check this by looking at MaxCLL - if it's 250 then it's very likely that the source is SDR. With DTM the results generally look very good indeed. I wonder whether Lumagen could add an SDR->HDR mode that does the same thing?


They've always done this if you have the UI set to HDR I believe.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> They've always done this if you have the UI set to HDR I believe.


Will check my settings!


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Will check my settings!


I have my ATV4K attached to my Lumagen and for some reason ocassionally the ATV4k decides it will start outputting the UI in HDR - seems related to it having seen a different EDID and decided that a new display is connected. Anyway, changing the UI back to what I think is optimum fixes it. For me optimum is the UI set to 4k SDR 24p, with match rate and match dynamic range enabled. This gives correct ouput for SDR vs HDR and avoids a re-sync for most SDR content. Downside is the UI and screensavers are a bit jerky (I don't tend to watch them... so don't care!)


----------



## jrp

I don't comment on competitor's products directly, but I have decided it is time to refute some of the silliness going around.

I can say that a person who is a professional in the movie business, and who's opinion has great merit for me (this person has the best eyes on the planet for evaluating video quality, and detecting artifacts, in my opinion), has compared the Lumagen to other products. He said that the current Radiance Pro DTM is the best he has seen - and he has evaluated the other implementations, including that the Radiance Pro scene detection is better than the professional suites he uses. He also said that for a $5000 PC running other processing code compared to the Radiance Pro, that the Radiance Pro scaling is still the best available. I will also admit that he said on his $50000 editing PC (with $20000 of nVidea GPUs), that bicubic scaling does edge out the Lumagen NoRing(TM) scaling ever so slightly (guess I might look at implementing bicubic. On the other hand I have some ideas to improve our NoRing(TM) scaling).

Nothing against other products, but to say "we have AI" or "we use the algorithm" and so therefore we are the best is, to put it bluntly, without merit. The only thing that matters is the end result - as some of you have already pointed out.

The Radiance Pro uses an FPGA. This is totally different than a processor, or GPU, based video processor. You cannot reasonably compare the two and say one is more powerful than the other based on a PC metric. Again the only valid comparison is viewing the end result.

=== 

As our customers know, for the past 16 years, we have constantly added new features and improved algorithms. We plan to continue this effort, and we have a significant amount of room left in the Radiance Pro FPGA to do so. Now that we have DTM nailed, we can get back to the pipeline improvements, and adding other features (PiP/PoP for 444X, edge enhancements, etc.). And we will continue to provide the best support in the industry.

As always thank you for your support, feedback, and praise on the Radiance Pro, especially DTM. We believe the improvements planned for the future will make the best video processor even better. Yes, the Radiance Pro is the best video processor and will continue to be so, and this is not even considering one can, when the Pro is setup properly, switch between two 4k60 sources and have the video back in 3 seconds.


----------



## Sandel

jrp said:


> We believe the improvements planned for the future will make the best video processor even better.



Is there a roadmap for these upcoming improvements? And could you shed a little light on what these features are?
You've already mentioned PiP/PoP for 444X and edge enhancement. Anything else on the list that you're willing to talk about in this (probably) early stage?


----------



## SJHT

Sandel said:


> Is there a roadmap for these upcoming improvements? And could you shed a little light on what these features are?
> You've already mentioned PiP/PoP for 444X and edge enhancement. Anything else on the list that you're willing to talk about in this (probably) early stage?


For PiP/PoP I would recommend reading about it from a previous model (page 23):

http://lumagen.com/docs/RadianceXDXE_091211.pdf

That feature is the reason I purchase my Pro model. SJ


----------



## Sandel

SJHT said:


> For PiP/PoP I would recommend reading about it from a previous model...


Thanks, but I wasn't wondering about HOW PiP/PoP is supposed to look, I was wondering what OTHER features might be in the making...


----------



## joerod

jrp said:


> I don't comment on competitor's products directly, but I have decided it is time to refute some of the silliness going around.
> 
> I can say that a person who is a professional in the movie business, and who's opinion has great merit for me (this person has the best eyes on the planet for evaluating video quality, and detecting artifacts, in my opinion), has compared the Lumagen to other products. He said that the current Radiance Pro DTM is the best he has seen - and he has evaluated the other implementations, including that the Radiance Pro scene detection is better than the professional suites he uses. He also said that for a $5000 PC running other processing code compared to the Radiance Pro, that the Radiance Pro scaling is still the best available. I will also admit that he said on his $50000 editing PC (with $20000 of nVidea GPUs), that bicubic scaling does edge out the Lumagen NoRing(TM) scaling ever so slightly (guess I might look at implementing bicubic. On the other hand I have some ideas to improve our NoRing(TM) scaling).
> 
> Nothing against other products, but to say "we have AI" or "we use the algorithm" and so therefore we are the best is, to put it bluntly, without merit. The only thing that matters is the end result - as some of you have already pointed out.
> 
> The Radiance Pro uses an FPGA. This is totally different than a processor, or GPU, based video processor. You cannot reasonably compare the two and say one is more powerful than the other based on a PC metric. Again the only valid comparison is viewing the end result.
> 
> ===
> 
> As our customers know, for the past 16 years, we have constantly added new features and improved algorithms. We plan to continue this effort, and we have a significant amount of room left in the Radiance Pro FPGA to do so. Now that we have DTM nailed, we can get back to the pipeline improvements, and adding other features (PiP/PoP for 444X, edge enhancements, etc.). And we will continue to provide the best support in the industry.
> 
> As always thank you for your support, feedback, and praise on the Radiance Pro, especially DTM. We believe the improvements planned for the future will make the best video processor even better. Yes, the Radiance Pro is the best video processor and will continue to be so, and this is not even considering one can, when the Pro is setup properly, switch between two 4k60 sources and have the video back in 3 seconds.


I like this post. It’s rare we get something so straightforward and honest from a company. It makes me want to finally add a Lumagen to my theater. Well said Jim P...


----------



## audioguy

joerod said:


> I like this post. It’s rare we get something so straightforward and honest from a company. It makes me want to finally add a Lumagen to my theater. Well said Jim P...


If you have a Sony 5000, you NEED a Lumagen.


----------



## Die Zwei

joerod said:


> I like this post. It’s rare we get something so straightforward and honest from a company. It makes me want to finally add a Lumagen to my theater. Well said Jim P...


Well, actually i think is quite remarkable that a Lumagen representative feels the need to speak up to praise his product in such an early stage. I think that alone is a nice success for the Envy team. 
Best part of the post is in my opinion:


> Again the only valid comparison is viewing the end result.


 the rest is marketing blabla.


----------



## audioguy

hockyAVS said:


> I think that alone is a nice success for the Envy team.


Seriously? 

If I were in Jim's shoes and kept reading all about how some "awesome", not-yet-existing product is going to whip up on a product that has been around for 16 years and supported at a very high level, I, too, would be forced to speak up. And how his comments are some kind of success for Envy is way beyond me.

I am not an unbiased bystander. But if I were, and learned what I have about the (non-existent) Envy pricing and feature set, vs that of a real world product, my decision would be quite clear.

But, in the FWIW department, JVC's new, in-projector DTM is not going to help either Lumagen or Envy. I get that it is not the only reason for these products, but it is, for many, the most important one. I have a friend who was going to buy an RS2000 + Lumagen. It will now be an RS2000 with no Lumagen. And I bet he is not the only one.


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> If I were in Jim's shoes and kept reading all about how some "awesome", not-yet-existing product is going to whip up on a product that has been around for 16 years and supported at a very high level, I, too, would be forced to speak up. And how his comments are some kind of success for Envy is way beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not an unbiased bystander. But if I were, and learned what I have about the (non-existent) Envy pricing and feature set, vs that of a real world product, my decision would be quite clear.
> 
> 
> 
> But, in the FWIW department, JVC's new, in-projector DTM is not going to help either Lumagen or Envy. I get that it is not the only reason for these products, but it is, for many, the most important one. I have a friend who was going to buy an RS2000 + Lumagen. It will now be an RS2000 with no Lumagen. And I bet he is not the only one.




The REAL 16 years is just enough to know which way I go .. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> If I were in Jim's shoes and kept reading all about how some "awesome", not-yet-existing product is going to whip up on a product that has been around for 16 years and supported at a very high level, I, too, would be forced to speak up. And how his comments are some kind of success for Envy is way beyond me.


Because it tells that the Envy is recognized as a competitor. Otherwise they wouldn´t be any need to comment.
Not more, but not less.


----------



## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> But, in the FWIW department, JVC's new, in-projector DTM is not going to help either Lumagen or Envy. I get that it is not the only reason for these products, but it is, for many, the most important one. I have a friend who was going to buy an RS2000 + Lumagen. It will now be an RS2000 with no Lumagen. And I bet he is not the only one.


JVCs new projector DTM is as non-existent as the Envy since it has been showcased and is forecasted to be released in Q4 2019. Same as the Envy. 
I would do a buying/non-buying decision based on that right now either for a Lumagen or for an Envy..


----------



## audioguy

hockyAVS said:


> Because it tells that the Envy is recognized as a competitor. Otherwise they wouldn´t be any need to comment.
> Not more, but not less.


"Potential" competitor, maybe. Of course they are recognized as a potential "competitor". And that is what they are - a "potential" competitor.

I've once owned a small (non AV) business for about 10 years. I was the first in that city to offer the service we offered. And every once in a while, an "Envy equivalent" potential competitor would start making noises about how much better they were going to be than I was, blah, blah, blah. And I would get questions from existing and potential clients. My response was not much different than Jim's. I stated the facts about my company, and the history, and how long I had been in business, and our value proposition. Of course I was recognizing that this entity was a "potential' competitor. But how that gave any "credence" to my potential competitor is beyond me. 

But let's come back to this discussion in about 2 to 3 years and see where things stand. Then we won't be discussing reality vs "potential". Until then, we are simply wasting electrons. Over and out!


----------



## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> But let's come back to this discussion in about 2 to 3 years and see where things stand. Then we won't be discussing reality vs "potential". Until then, we are simply wasting electrons. Over and out!



Agree!


----------



## joerod

audioguy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> If I were in Jim's shoes and kept reading all about how some "awesome", not-yet-existing product is going to whip up on a product that has been around for 16 years and supported at a very high level, I, too, would be forced to speak up. And how his comments are some kind of success for Envy is way beyond me.
> 
> I am not an unbiased bystander. But if I were, and learned what I have about the (non-existent) Envy pricing and feature set, vs that of a real world product, my decision would be quite clear.
> 
> But, in the FWIW department, JVC's new, in-projector DTM is not going to help either Lumagen or Envy. I get that it is not the only reason for these products, but it is, for many, the most important one. I have a friend who was going to buy an RS2000 + Lumagen. It will now be an RS2000 with no Lumagen. And I bet he is not the only one.


Lumagen has absolutely zero to worry about. I just read it doesn’t even do 4K/60. I am not going to spend $5K and take a step back. Now to find a Lumagen dealer...


----------



## audioguy

joerod said:


> Now to find a Lumagen dealer...


Will send PM


----------



## A7mad78

joerod said:


> Lumagen has absolutely zero to worry about. I just read it doesn’t even do 4K/60. I am not going to spend $5K and take a step back. Now to find a Lumagen dealer...




U will not regret it’s my trinnov in the video side best buy along with trinnov 

Just an end user who is happy with what I get 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MDesigns

joerod said:


> Lumagen has absolutely zero to worry about. I just read it doesn’t even do 4K/60. I am not going to spend $5K and take a step back. Now to find a Lumagen dealer...


You read that from where? That is not true.

Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla


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## dinamigym

MDesigns said:


> You read that from where? That is not true.
> 
> Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla


I'm guessing he read it on the Envy thread... "One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?"

No one disputed it. In fact someone basically confirmed it. Sounds like Joe's statement is true unless you buy the $10k version of the Envy.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

joerod said:


> I like this post. It’s rare we get something so straightforward and honest from a company. It makes me want to finally add a Lumagen to my theater. Well said Jim P...


And I reassure you , you won't regret a single penny spent on it. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

joerod said:


> Lumagen has absolutely zero to worry about. I just read it doesn’t even do 4K/60. I am not going to spend $5K and take a step back. Now to find a Lumagen dealer...


With the Radiance Pro you will not be "Envy"ous at all! Lumagen has a proven industry track record having been around more than 16 years and understands what its customers require for video performance and setup. And its dynamic tone mapping is the killer! And auto aspect ratio detection is very cool and useful, too.


----------



## audioguy

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> With the Radiance Pro you will not be "Envy"ous at all! Lumagen has a proven industry track record having been around more than 16 years and understands what its customers require for video performance and setup. And its dynamic tone mapping is the killer! *And auto aspect ratio detection is very cool and useful, too*.


That was an unknown when I bought mine and is VERY useful.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

hockyAVS said:


> Because it tells that the Envy is recognized as a competitor. Otherwise they wouldn´t be any need to comment.
> 
> Not more, but not less.


It can't be a competitor at all, as I have already mentioned Lumagen provides much more wider spectrum of video processing solutions, and you need to be silly to ignore that. At the moment the two options it can "potentially" outperform is upscaling and DTM, which I personally believe can do in upscaling but not in DTM. This is it, there are no other things it can compete with, Lumagen would have a huge list of capabilities against the Envy. I will be soon doing those two features comparisons between Lumagen and Envy having HTPC madVR setup with gtx 1080ti. Envy can be a great product and it might find its followers and customers, but it can't compete with Lumagen at all, it's just different product with different technologies inside and approach selected. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## MDesigns

dinamigym said:


> I'm guessing he read it on the Envy thread... "One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
> 
> What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?"
> 
> 
> 
> No one disputed it. In fact someone basically confirmed it. Sounds like Joe's statement is true unless you buy the $10k version of the Envy.


No, as madshi said earlier in the thread the base model can do 4K/60, it just can't use the highest quality settings like the pro model.

Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## MDesigns

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It can't be a competitor at all, as I have already mentioned Lumagen provides much more wider spectrum of video processing solutions, and you need to be silly to ignore that. At the moment the two options it can "potentially" outperform is upscaling and DTM, which I personally believe can do in upscaling but not in DTM. This is it, there are no other things it can compete with, Lumagen would have a huge list of capabilities against the Envy. I will be soon doing those two features comparisons between Lumagen and Envy having HTPC madVR setup with gtx 1080ti. Envy can be a great product and it might find its followers and customers, but it can't compete with Lumagen at all, it's just different product with different technologies inside and approach selected.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


That feature comparison would be really nice! Also would be nice to have a list of what a Lumagen can do and what the Envy can do. 

Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## Die Zwei

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It can't be a competitor at all, as I have already mentioned Lumagen provides much more wider spectrum of video processing solutions, and you need to be silly to ignore that. At the moment the two options it can "potentially" outperform is upscaling and DTM, which I personally believe can do in upscaling but not in DTM. This is it, there are no other things it can compete with, Lumagen would have a huge list of capabilities against the Envy. I will be soon doing those two features comparisons between Lumagen and Envy having HTPC madVR setup with gtx 1080ti. Envy can be a great product and it might find its followers and customers, but it can't compete with Lumagen at all, it's just different product with different technologies inside and approach selected.


I agree with you 90%. I said it before - Lumagen and Envy have different features and are for different purpose.
But they compete at least in the areas you mention above: upscaling and DTM plus there are others that are obviously similar as also mentioned here like aspect ratio detection, etc.
So of course there´s no competition on the product line, Lumagen has a much broader line-up. I think that is out of question. 



> I'm guessing he read it on the Envy thread... "One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
> What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?"
> 
> No one disputed it.


Well, it was a simple question (from me) which has answered to my satisfaction in the meantime - what is there to dispute about?


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> But they compete at least in the areas you mention above: upscaling and DTM plus there are others that are obviously similar as also mentioned here like aspect ratio detection, etc.


Strictly speaking, there's no competition at the moment, so really we should be framing points appropriately.
On the one hand you have currently unobtanium and unproven as a complete product proposition, and the other is shipping and a very well understood and regarded proposition. Perhaps there will be some competition in a few months (competition is a good thing!), but until then... I'll be watching the only shipping HDMI in DTM solution (as I have been for the last 9 months... plus intensity mapping before that ).


----------



## dinamigym

hockyAVS said:


> I agree with you 90%. I said it before - Lumagen and Envy have different features and are for different purpose.
> But they compete at least in the areas you mention above: upscaling and DTM plus there are others that are obviously similar as also mentioned here like aspect ratio detection, etc.
> So of course there´s no competition on the product line, Lumagen has a much broader line-up. I think that is out of question.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it was a simple question (from me) which has answered to my satisfaction in the meantime - what is there to dispute about?


. No dispute...just clarification that the base Envy only does a scaled back version of 4k60 which is an issue for some who might consider it.


----------



## Die Zwei

dinamigym said:


> . No dispute...just clarification that the base Envy only does a scaled back version of 4k60 which is an issue for some who might consider it.


Given the very limited amount of material in 4K60, that´s OK for me. But indeed that´s nothing that is in favour of the base model.


----------



## Ash Sharma

The auto AR works awesome on my setup - but today I watched the new Netflix Show 'The Spy' and the AR did not work - the picture is 1:78 with black bars top and down - switched to Stranger Things 2.0 and it worked like a charm.
Does the Lumagen Team watch issues on this thread and resolve them?


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> The auto AR works awesome on my setup - but today I watched the new Netflix Show 'The Spy' and the AR did not work - the picture is 1:78 with black bars top and down - switched to Stranger Things 2.0 and it worked like a charm.
> Does the Lumagen Team watch issues on this thread and resolve them?


Best to ping them an email. I'll check that out later as I was going to watch it


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> The auto AR works awesome on my setup - but today I watched the new Netflix Show 'The Spy' and the AR did not work - the picture is 1:78 with black bars top and down - switched to Stranger Things 2.0 and it worked like a charm.
> Does the Lumagen Team watch issues on this thread and resolve them?


It looks like it is something like ~2.1:1 aspect ratio. 

Lumagen recently fixed up aspect ratios >2.4 to detect as 2.4 (previously they wouldn't detect at all). This is similar - because whatever aspect they've edited this programme to isn't a defined aspect in the Lumagen it doesn't detect any change of aspect.

It should probably at least detect it to the closest aspect ratio without cropping (which I think in this case would probably be 2.0:1), or perhaps the next ratio up with a slight crop (eg 2.2:1). Maybe that should be a configurable preference.

Hopefully this can be improved at some point 

Edit: it might also be nice to have the option to report actual exact ratio. That way those of us with constantly variable aspect masking screens could always have exactly correct masking. It would have to be an optional config though as otherwise it could break existing installations.


----------



## DMILANI

Can the Lumagen be configured to enable one of its trigger outputs when it detect wide aspect ratio? For example to trigger my masking system automatically?


----------



## Ash Sharma

bobof said:


> Hopefully this can be improved at some point
> 
> Edit: it might also be nice to have the option to report actual exact ratio. That way those of us with constantly variable aspect masking screens could always have exactly correct masking. It would have to be an optional config though as otherwise it could break existing installations.


You are correct - once the show finished - BTW, nice Show - the AR switched to 16:9 correctly


----------



## Ash Sharma

DMILANI said:


> Can the Lumagen be configured to enable one of its trigger outputs when it detect wide aspect ratio? For example to trigger my masking system automatically?


My Crestron based system - Lumagen Triggers masking on my Stewart Vistascope Screen - This is a awesome feature.
Unfortunately, it is a hit and miss (it sometimes works and sometimes does not) and my integrator Adam Peltz confirmed that this is a hit and miss as he has seen it in other implementations.
I am hoping Lumagen fixes this Crestron Module soon as this feature has brought me to a total Press Play and watch control in my theater for my family members who are always confused about my control system.


----------



## SJHT

What does the hit or miss have to do with a Crestron module? I know you can get the Full information query from Lumagen and maybe that is giving the incorrect information to your control system on occasion. If your source is Kaleidescape, then the source information will pretty much always be accurate if your control system integrates with K to get aspect ratio information, HDR, SDR, etc. SJ


----------



## darksets

Ash Sharma said:


> The auto AR works awesome on my setup - but today I watched the new Netflix Show 'The Spy' and the AR did not work - the picture is 1:78 with black bars top and down - switched to Stranger Things 2.0 and it worked like a charm.
> Does the Lumagen Team watch issues on this thread and resolve them?


I also would like to report a problem with auto-aspect ratio for John Wick 3, the 4k version. It's shown letterboxed in the middle of my 2.35: 1 screen. I sent an email to support but I got no reply.


----------



## Ash Sharma

darksets said:


> I also would like to report a problem with auto-aspect ratio for John Wick 3, the 4k version. It's shown letterboxed in the middle of my 2.35: 1 screen. I sent an email to support but I got no reply.


So what is the option to force a AR if Lumagen is not doing the Auto AR correctly? 
It would be great to get that programmed in my Crestron Remote - while waiting for Lumagen to do their thing.

BTW - I sent a mail to [email protected] and Jim Peterson sent me a mail Sunday evening and told me they will look into it - talk about great service.


----------



## darksets

Ash Sharma said:


> So what is the option to force a AR if Lumagen is not doing the Auto AR correctly?
> It would be great to get that programmed in my Crestron Remote - while waiting for Lumagen to do their thing.
> 
> BTW - I sent a mail to [email protected] and Jim Peterson sent me a mail Sunday evening and told me they will look into it - talk about great service.


You can overwrite it, in my logitech universal remote shows up as "Screen 2.35", I believe in the original Lumagen remote it's simply "2.35". There is also a setting in the menu about "sticky overwrite", I think you need to set it to on if you don't want it to revert after a while.


----------



## bobof

DMILANI said:


> Can the Lumagen be configured to enable one of its trigger outputs when it detect wide aspect ratio? For example to trigger my masking system automatically?


I'm not sure they come with simple trigger outputs any more (or at least not as standard). My 4242 doesn't.

In any case I don't think you'd really want to use a simple trigger output. The Lumagen can detect and set at least 6 different aspect ratios, so assuming your masking screen has more than two positions you'd really want something with a bit more intelligence sat between the screen and the Lumagen to be able to set to each of those ratios. A trigger output could only give you two positions. A control system on the RS232 is ideal. I did it myself with a Raspberry Pi which was about $50 in parts and a couple of evenings of scripting.



Ash Sharma said:


> So what is the option to force a AR if Lumagen is not doing the Auto AR correctly?
> It would be great to get that programmed in my Crestron Remote - while waiting for Lumagen to do their thing.
> 
> BTW - I sent a mail to [email protected] and Jim Peterson sent me a mail Sunday evening and told me they will look into it - talk about great service.


You want to set "Sticky Override" to yes in the Auto aspect menu. Then when you press an aspect change button it will override the detection for the duration of the programme (until something like an input or resolution change happens).


----------



## DMILANI

I have a Control4 system in my theater, but not sure there is such as sophisticated driver for Lumagen to detect and set my screen masking system. Does anyone know?


----------



## SJHT

I’ve not implemented the Lumagen process yet (Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page), but most control systems can monitor serial/IP feedback and then take action. I’ve only done it with Kaleidescape and my MX160. For K as an example, when you select a movie to play, K generates system events. These events include things like aspect ratio (2.40, 1.85, etc.), HDR, SDR, etc. A control system picks up on these and can execute commands to do whatever you want. Assume you would need to work with whomever programmed your system to see if the information is included in the drivers or whatever else is needed if you want to pursue. Also, assume there is a central control hardware that is monitoring vs. just a remote. SJ


----------



## LJG

Ash Sharma said:


> My Crestron based system - Lumagen Triggers masking on my Stewart Vistascope Screen - This is a awesome feature.
> Unfortunately, it is a hit and miss (it sometimes works and sometimes does not) and my integrator Adam Peltz confirmed that this is a hit and miss as he has seen it in other implementations.
> I am hoping Lumagen fixes this Crestron Module soon as this feature has brought me to a total Press Play and watch control in my theater for my family members who are always confused about my control system.


Hi Ash:

We just finished setting this up in my system which is even more complicated as the AA and Crestron set screen masking AND projector Lens memories per aspect ratio. It is so very awesome to not fiddle with each Aspect Ratio the Lumagen is 100 percent accurate except for Directv which is 99 percent 1.78. Tell Adam he needs to have the Crestron poll the Lumagen every few seconds. I love this now!! Running 1.78, 1.85, 2.0 @ one projector lens memory, and 2.0 (large), 2.2, 2.35, 2.40 @ another lens memory.


----------



## LJG

Ash Sharma said:


> The auto AR works awesome on my setup - but today I watched the new Netflix Show 'The Spy' and the AR did not work - the picture is 1:78 with black bars top and down - switched to Stranger Things 2.0 and it worked like a charm.
> Does the Lumagen Team watch issues on this thread and resolve them?


If you press enter 3 times on Lumagen menu it shows the input/output Aspect Ratio.


----------



## audioguy

darksets said:


> I also would like to report a problem with auto-aspect ratio for John Wick 3, the 4k version. It's shown letterboxed in the middle of my 2.35: 1 screen. I sent an email to support but I got no reply.


I just watched it and did not have that issue - and I also have a 2:35 screen.

EDIT: And to add clarity, I watched from an MKV ripped copy playing from a Nvidia Shield/Plex.


----------



## mikela

^
Same here. Just watched this with a group of fellow AVS'ers yesterday...no problem.


----------



## SJHT

darksets said:


> I also would like to report a problem with auto-aspect ratio for John Wick 3, the 4k version. It's shown letterboxed in the middle of my 2.35: 1 screen. I sent an email to support but I got no reply.


What is your source?


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> I also would like to report a problem with auto-aspect ratio for John Wick 3, the 4k version. It's shown letterboxed in the middle of my 2.35: 1 screen. I sent an email to support but I got no reply.


Your email never made it here. Likely our sometimes over active SPAM filter. If you can let us know your email (PM would work) I can get you on our white list, or if you have a different email you can send it from please try that.

I just purchased John Wick 3 for our Strato and can check for that version.

It might be specific to your player combined with the content. Which player are you using, and where did the file come from? 

In the past we have seen some content have an error in their black level and this then looks like video to the Pro. We should be able to adapt for the player/content causing issues. Of course could be a bug in the auto-aspect we have not yet seen. We will take a look.


----------



## darksets

SJHT said:


> What is your source?



4k Blu-Ray Disc playing on Oppo 203.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> Your email never made it here. Likely our sometimes over active SPAM filter. If you can let us know your email (PM would work) I can get you on our white list, or if you have a different email you can send it from please try that.
> 
> I just purchased John Wick 3 for our Strato and can check for that version.
> 
> It might be specific to your player combined with the content. Which player are you using, and where did the file come from?
> 
> In the past we have seen some content have an error in their black level and this then looks like video to the Pro. We should be able to adapt for the player/content causing issues. Of course could be a bug in the auto-aspect we have not yet seen. We will take a look.


Thanks Jim. I've had email exchanges with [email protected] before so I think I'm ok. Something might have gone wrong with that particular message. As for the movie, I'm using an Oppo 203 and the 4k Blu-Ray disc.


----------



## jrp

Update on John Wick 3 and auto aspect.

I watched John Wick 3 from a Kaleidescape Strato in the Lumagen Demo Theater on our 2.40 screen with auto aspect enabled and the Radiance Pro detected 2.40 and selected it immediately when I started the movie, and stayed that way for the entire movies.

So we will need to investigate further. We have an Oppo 203 in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I just ordered the disc to test to see if we can replicate the issue you are seeing on your Oppo 203.

[EDIT] Darkset: Can you confirm you have the Oppo 203 set to "Source Direct" and the output color format set to 4:2:2, as recommended?


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> Update on John Wick 3 and auto aspect.
> 
> I watched John Wick 3 from a Kaleidescape Strato in the Lumagen Demo Theater on our 2.40 screen with auto aspect enabled and the Radiance Pro detected 2.40 and selected it immediately when I started the movie, and stayed that way for the entire movies.
> 
> So we will need to investigate further. We have an Oppo 203 in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I just ordered the disc to test to see if we can replicate the issue you are seeing on your Oppo 203.
> 
> [EDIT] Darkset: Can you confirm you have the Oppo 203 set to "Source Direct" and the output color format set to 4:2:2, as recommended?


Yes, those are my settings. However, I cannot replicate the problem now. I just tried playing the disc again and now it's shown correctly without changing anything. I apologize for the confusion I created, I really can't understand it.


----------



## Craig Peer

jrp said:


> Update on John Wick 3 and auto aspect.
> 
> I watched John Wick 3 from a Kaleidescape Strato in the Lumagen Demo Theater on our 2.40 screen with auto aspect enabled and the Radiance Pro detected 2.40 and selected it immediately when I started the movie, and stayed that way for the entire movies.
> 
> So we will need to investigate further. We have an Oppo 203 in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I just ordered the disc to test to see if we can replicate the issue you are seeing on your Oppo 203.
> 
> [EDIT] Darkset: Can you confirm you have the Oppo 203 set to "Source Direct" and the output color format set to 4:2:2, as recommended?


While I hadn't planned on watching John Wick 3 for the first time until Sunday ( a John Wick 2 & 3 double feature with Blanton's bourbon ! ), I decided to put it on and test it ahead of time. Also using an Oppo 203. I started letterboxed, but then went to 2.40:1 ( I'm using a DCR lens ). Played fine. Unfortunately I got sucked into the movie. When John breaks into the firearms museum and is attacked by the gang of Asian hitmen ( after trying to assemble a single action revolver ), it suddenly went back to letterboxed in the center of the screen. A backed it up, replayed it and used the sticky aspect ratio command for 2.40:1. I'm not sure what is different about this disc, but I just made a note to use the sticky aspect ratio for 2.40:1. That fixes it. 

Damn movie is great - watched at least 1/2 of it. Can't wait for Sunday !


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> While I hadn't planned on watching John Wick 3 for the first time until Sunday ( a John Wick 2 & 3 double feature with Blanton's bourbon ! ), I decided to put it on and test it ahead of time. Also using an Oppo 203. I started letterboxed, but then went to 2.40:1 ( I'm using a DCR lens ). Played fine. Unfortunately I got sucked into the movie. When John breaks into the firearms museum and is attacked by the gang of Asian hitmen ( after trying to assemble a single action revolver ), it suddenly went back to letterboxed in the center of the screen. A backed it up, replayed it and used the sticky aspect ratio command for 2.40:1. I'm not sure what is different about this disc, but I just made a note to use the sticky aspect ratio for 2.40:1. That fixes it.
> 
> Damn movie is great - watched at least 1/2 of it. Can't wait for Sunday !


Lon Mentioned in the 5000ES thread that his programmer (Crestron) set a polling AR command and it works flawless.
Jim wrote to me yesterday that he is looking into the code itself working with Adam.


----------



## LJG

Ash Sharma said:


> Lon Mentioned in the 5000ES thread that his programmer (Crestron) set a polling AR command and it works flawless.
> Jim wrote to me yesterday that he is looking into the code itself working with Adam.


I watched John Wick 3, Oppo 203, AA picked up 2.4 AR, masking set, projector lens memory it was perfect. Only when I went to review a scene backward did it reset to 1.78, but as soon as it went to play 2.4. @ Ash, Crestron modules are often broken and buggy it is rare that a Crestron module works without the programmer debugging.


----------



## Craig Peer

LJG said:


> I watched John Wick 3, Oppo 203, AA picked up 2.4 AR, masking set, projector lens memory it was perfect. Only when I went to review a scene backward did it reset to 1.78, but as soon as it went to play 2.4. @ Ash, Crestron modules are often broken and buggy it is rare that a Crestron module works without the programmer debugging.


Mine didn't go to 1.78:1. It letterboxed the movie in the center of my scope screen, just like Darksets. Weird !


----------



## LJG

I was rewinding the Movie I should have made that clearer so really no issue at all


----------



## Wookii

LJG said:


> I watched John Wick 3, Oppo 203, AA picked up 2.4 AR, masking set, projector lens memory it was perfect. Only when I went to review a scene backward did it reset to 1.78, but as soon as it went to play 2.4. @ Ash, Crestron modules are often broken and buggy it is rare that a Crestron module works without the programmer debugging.


AA will revert to 1.78 if you pause or rewind etc, as symbols and progress bars etc can appear within the black bars.



Craig Peer said:


> Mine didn't go to 1.78:1. It letterboxed the movie in the center of my scope screen, just like Darksets. Weird !


That is going to 1:78 Craig, the auto-aspect system thinks a 1.78 (16:9) frame is being displayed, so will attempt to fit it within your scope screen. Did you press any control buttons at the time (pause, rewind, info etc)?


----------



## Craig Peer

Wookii said:


> AA will revert to 1.78 if you pause or rewind etc, as symbols and progress bars etc can appear within the black bars.
> 
> 
> 
> *That is going to 1:78 Craig, the auto-aspect system thinks a 1.78 (16:9) frame is being displayed, so will attempt to fit it within your scope screen. Did you press any control buttons at the time (pause, rewind, info etc)*?


I guess you are right - and it showed the black bars top and bottom which made it look like a letterboxed image. I touched nothing - I was just watching the movie. It totally switched on its own mid movie. Also, I think the menu at the beginning of the movie was not in 16:9. This disc affected AA different than any other scope film I've watched - I haven't had any problems until now. Maybe I should try it in my UB820 just for fun, although I'm willing to bet it's a disc encoding issue and not player related. Easily solved by using the sticky aspect ratio, but I hope other new films don't do this - it's irritating !


----------



## LJG

Wookii said:


> AA will revert to 1.78 if you pause or rewind etc, as symbols and progress bars etc can appear within the black bars.
> 
> 
> 
> That is going to 1:78 Craig, the auto-aspect system thinks a 1.78 (16:9) frame is being displayed, so will attempt to fit it within your scope screen. Did you press any control buttons at the time (pause, rewind, info etc)?


Agreed that's why I said only when I rewound


----------



## bobof

It would be nice to be able to send a temporary "ignore aspect change" command to the Pro to make it ignore changes for a specified period, along with the option to cancel the ignore command. This way you could stop it caring about the on screen junk during seeking quite easily by just sending the ignore command on pressing seek, and perhaps also sending the cancel ignore command on resuming playback.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> It would be nice to be able to send a temporary "ignore aspect change" command to the Pro to make it ignore changes for a specified period, along with the option to cancel the ignore command. This way you could stop it caring about the on screen junk during seeking quite easily by just sending the ignore command on pressing seek, and perhaps also sending the cancel ignore command on resuming playback.


You can now. In my case I press "alt " and " 2.35:1 ". I have to do that if I want to watch " Interstellar " in scope - otherwise things get really crazy with the AA.


----------



## bobof

Craig Peer said:


> You can now. In my case I press "alt " and " 2.35:1 ". I have to do that if I want to watch " Interstellar " in scope - otherwise things get really crazy with the AA.


It's not quite the same thing as you have to know the AR in advance.
But you're right, it is currently probably possible to do but hard.

On someone pressing seek you'd currently have to intercept the seek command from the remote, then:
Query the current AR
Force the current AR to the current AR (I'm not sure if that will make it stick if you're not changing AR, need to try it).
Do your seeking
(some timeout to allow OSD junk to go away)
Send ZY550 RS232 command to reset the auto aspect engine

It would perhaps be nice to have a single command to make the current AR sticky without having to know what the AR is.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> It's not quite the same thing as you have to know the AR in advance.
> But you're right, it is currently probably possible to do but hard.
> 
> On someone pressing seek you'd currently have to intercept the seek command from the remote, then:
> Query the current AR
> Force the current AR to the current AR (I'm not sure if that will make it stick if you're not changing AR, need to try it).
> Do your seeking
> (some timeout to allow OSD junk to go away)
> Send ZY550 RS232 command to reset the auto aspect engine
> 
> *It would perhaps be nice to have a single command to make the current AR sticky without having to know what the AR is*.


That could be useful.


----------



## Ash Sharma

LJG said:


> Agreed that's why I said only when I rewound


New Firmware Posted at Lumagen to Fix My AR Issues...


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> New Firmware Posted at Lumagen to Fix My AR Issues...


It's interesting, it did eventually detect 2.0 for The Spy, but often takes a really, really long time to do so.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 090919*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 090919*
- Posted 091819 
Improvement to auto-detecting 2.0 input aspect on some sources. 
Fix for rs232 status reporting of output aspect which was sometimes not current. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> It's not quite the same thing as you have to know the AR in advance.
> But you're right, it is currently probably possible to do but hard.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> It would perhaps be nice to have a single command to make the current AR sticky without having to know what the AR is.


We like the idea of having a way to ignore auto aspect and keep the current aspect.

Pat and I talked and we decided that we will put the following into the next release (after the 090919 that was just posted):

ALT CLR: Ignore Auto Aspect changes and keep current aspect

ALT NLS: Enable Auto Aspect changes (if auto aspect feature is on)

=====

NOTE: For the Oppo 203 at least you can turn off the OSD symbols that display when you pause/FF/Rew. I did this since having the "PAUSE" show up in the image would mess up DTM while I was trying to evaluate a paused image. However, this should also keep the OSD symbols from causing auto aspect to detect a different aspect ratio. This is in the Oppo's Setup menu under Playback setup. Select "OSD Mode" as "Off."


----------



## audioguy

I have owned a lot of high end audio and video products in the last (OVER) 40 years. None of those companies (with the possible exception of Trinnov) come close to providing the kind of responsiveness we get from Lumagen. Simply blown away! Incredible!!


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I have owned a lot of high end audio and video products in the last (OVER) 40 years. None of those companies (with the possible exception of Trinnov) come close to providing the kind of responsiveness we get from Lumagen. Simply blown away! Incredible!!


Agreed. Thank you Jim and Pat. Great seeing you at Cedia Jim.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> We like the idea of having a way to ignore auto aspect and keep the current aspect.
> 
> Pat and I talked and we decided that we will put the following into the next release (after the 090919 that was just posted):
> 
> ALT CLR: Ignore Auto Aspect changes and keep current aspect
> 
> ALT NLS: Enable Auto Aspect changes (if auto aspect feature is on)
> 
> =====
> 
> NOTE: For the Oppo 203 at least you can turn off the OSD symbols that display when you pause/FF/Rew. I did this since having the "PAUSE" show up in the image would mess up DTM while I was trying to evaluate a paused image. However, this should also keep the OSD symbols from causing auto aspect to detect a different aspect ratio. This is in the Oppo's Setup menu under Playback setup. Select "OSD Mode" as "Off."


Awesome, look forward to trying it out 

The Oppo is annoying a bit when doing network playback of MKV files as although they did put that nice option to remove the OSD symbols, the MKV player sticks up a bright yellow chapter change text on the bottom of the screen... argh!  . This will be really useful to neuter that.

Sony UHD players also have such an option to disable OSD widgets in their menus I recall.


----------



## Mike Garrett

dinamigym said:


> I'm guessing he read it on the Envy thread... "One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
> What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?"
> 
> No one disputed it. In fact someone basically confirmed it. Sounds like Joe's statement is true unless you buy the $10k version of the Envy.


The base does 4k 60hz. The pro can do it with using all the features and full computational power. In other words, in MadVR's opinion, no compromise. The base model will not be able to do it with full computational power, due to less computational power available, so when some features are used, it runs into its limit. I know this is the Lumagen thread, but just correcting some misinformation.


----------



## dinamigym

Mike Garrett said:


> The base does 4k 60hz. The pro can do it with using all the features and full computational power. In other words, in MadVR's opinion, no compromise. The base model will not be able to do it with full computational power, due to less computational power available, so when some features are used, it runs into its limit. I know this is the Lumagen thread, but just correcting some misinformation.


Thanks Mike. Yes, I did see that point was clarified. I Should have edited/noted that later in the post. - Paul


----------



## bob u

I would like to compliment Jim from Lumagen also. He has always bent over backwards to help me with the setup of my system and sage advice on everything from what hdmi cables will work to calibration.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 091019*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 091019*
- Posted 091919 
Added commands to temporarily disable/re-enable auto aspect detection. 
Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it. 
These commands can be issued via rs232 using the ascii characters for these 2 remote buttons. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Craig Peer

Wow - that was fast ! Thanks !


----------



## gadgetfreaky

audioguy said:


> I too, recommend the OP hire a calibrator, simply based upon the questions he asked.
> 
> Someone recently posted that the Lumagen was the Trinnov of video. And, as with the Trinnov, without a fairly deep understanding of the subject (Trinnov = audio; Lumagen = video), and the necessary tools and knowledge of how to use those tools associated with the product, the chances of getting even close to optimum results are pretty much, zero.
> 
> The guys that know how to help the end user get what they paid for out of the Lumagen, don't come cheap. But at the end of the day, the Lumagen isn't cheap either.





Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k HDR then it will auto convert all SDR to HDR. This could be an issue with the settings you have in the Radiance Pro.
> 
> If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k SDR it will still for HDR programs output HDR for those programs only. This is what I do.
> 
> I also have Apple TV 4k and Roku Ultra 4k to output native refresh rate.


So is this the definitive solution? I have a benq LK990 projector. I have the appletv 4k video setting as 
1. enable HDR
2. Format 4k SDR 60Hz
HDMI output YCbCR
Chroma 4:4:4
match dynamic range = on
match frame rate off (not sure if this is right thing to do)

What settings should I have on teh radiance pro? anything different? I actually prefer the roku but they aren't supporting atmos yet!

I'm thinking of giving up both and moving to Nvidia shield


----------



## Kris Deering

gadgetfreaky said:


> So is this the definitive solution? I have a benq LK990 projector. I have the appletv 4k video setting as
> 1. enable HDR
> 2. Format 4k SDR 60Hz
> HDMI output YCbCR
> Chroma 4:4:4
> match dynamic range = on
> match frame rate off (not sure if this is right thing to do)
> 
> What settings should I have on teh radiance pro? anything different? I actually prefer the roku but they aren't supporting atmos yet!
> 
> I'm thinking of giving up both and moving to Nvidia shield


Those settings should be fine, I would also turn Match Rate to ON. In the Radiance I would have the HDR CMS output colorspace set to SDR709 since your projector doesn't do anything over 709.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Kris Deering said:


> Those settings should be fine, I would also turn Match Rate to ON. In the Radiance I would have the HDR CMS output colorspace set to SDR709 since your projector doesn't do anything over 709.


When I turn match rate on, and start an appletV hdr movie, I get no picture. turn it off, picture comes on. for HDR CMS1 I have set to SDR709 do I have HDR flag off? or On? and is the 2020-601/709 set to auto convert?

Is there another setting for the frame rate on the ravii.


----------



## Kris Deering

HDR flag should probably be off. Convert should be on for that CMS. Not sure why you would have issues getting a picture when you start a movie. The only change would be from 60p to 24p.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Kris Deering said:


> Those settings should be fine, I would also turn Match Rate to ON. In the Radiance I would have the HDR CMS output colorspace set to SDR709 since your projector doesn't do anything over 709.


got everything working, not sure which setting did it LOL.. but on CMS1 (HDR), I left HDR flag on and tried colorspace at BT2020 and turned off 2020- 601/709, and it looks great. The manual says the projector does BT2020 and picture in the menu settings it'll show that it's seeing and displaying a BT2020 (on projector menu).

Reason why I should do output colorspace SDR709?


----------



## Kris Deering

gadgetfreaky said:


> got everything working, not sure which setting did it LOL.. but on CMS1 (HDR), I left HDR flag on and tried colorspace at BT2020 and turned off 2020- 601/709, and it looks great. The manual says the projector does BT2020 and picture in the menu settings it'll show that it's seeing and displaying a BT2020 (on projector menu).
> 
> Reason why I should do output colorspace SDR709?


Couple things here. You don't want the HDR flag on if you want the Radiance to do the tone mapping. I also recommended SDR709 for the output because that projector's colorspace is limited to 709 for gamut coverage. I know it will accept 2020, but there is no reason to feed it 2020. The Radiance does a great job with 2020->709 conversion.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Kris Deering said:


> Couple things here. You don't want the HDR flag on if you want the Radiance to do the tone mapping. I also recommended SDR709 for the output because that projector's colorspace is limited to 709 for gamut coverage. I know it will accept 2020, but there is no reason to feed it 2020. The Radiance does a great job with 2020->709 conversion.


Really? Radiance Pro doesn't tone map before the video goes to the projector? Are you saying when HDR flag is off, radiance pro just passes the signal to the projector to tonemap? is there such a thing as leaving it on, and the radiance pro tone maps, then the projector takes that picture and does "another tone map" to it ? sorry still trying to figure things out.

I notice the nit settings makes a big difference. What should that be at? i'm seeing a good pic at 500-700. But sometimes, not all, whites are a bit too blown out (mostly on some netflix reality show, not on movies or edited shows on netflix)

As for "limited to 709 for gamut coverage" where do you see that? I couldn't find it in the specs or manual? Manual says "Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for
display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color
gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3
according to your needs."

I take this as it displays BT.2020?


----------



## Kris Deering

Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.


----------



## MDesigns

gadgetfreaky said:


> As for "limited to 709 for gamut coverage" where do you see that? I couldn't find it in the specs or manual? Manual says "Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for
> display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
> With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color
> gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3
> according to your needs."
> 
> I take this as it displays BT.2020?


From the Benq website and it has been measured also. It doesn't even get to full Rec. 709: "LK990’s powerful BlueCore laser projection utilizes a dual color wheel system to produce unparalleled color performance by increasing color ratios and purity of RGBY color while *achieving 92% of Rec.709 color coverage*, dramatically enhancing color saturation to ensure superior viewing experiences."

https://business-display.benq.com/en/findproduct/projector/installation-projectors/lk990.html


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.


Awesome. If you're going anywhere near the scene detection logic, there are a couple of scenes I'd noted so far with repeatable obvious slight curve jumps mid scene in recent versions (I may have seen one or two more but not wanted to stop and note them). I should note these kind of things are much, much reduced vs previous incarnations but it would be really nice to get the last few nailed. Would be worth adding them to your tests perhaps:

Narcos S1 E3 on Netflix played in HDR10 on Samsung UHD disc player, around 15:15 as the camera scans from the table to the narco "Poison" against the light coming through the window.
LaLaLand, 6:46. UHD disc MKV 1:1 rip playing via Infuse on ATV4K or Oppo player.


Both the above issues are actually baked into the Studio HDR transfers - thanks @Kris Deering for setting me straight. The Narcos one seems less obvious with DTM off, but is still observed, whereas the LaLaLand one is very obvious.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Really? Radiance Pro doesn't tone map before the video goes to the projector? Are you saying when HDR flag is off, radiance pro just passes the signal to the projector to tonemap? is there such a thing as leaving it on, and the radiance pro tone maps, then the projector takes that picture and does "another tone map" to it ? sorry still trying to figure things out.
> 
> I notice the nit settings makes a big difference. What should that be at? i'm seeing a good pic at 500-700. But sometimes, not all, whites are a bit too blown out (mostly on some netflix reality show, not on movies or edited shows on netflix)


The HDR flag toggling was added really just for JVC projectors where you can use it to trigger a mode change in the projector - it is separate from whether the output is 2020 or 709 (hence why it is provided as an option)

I understand the Pro can do DTM for both 2.4 (SDR) and PQ (HDR) output gamma, but you wouldn't want to output PQ gamma unless you have a very specific use case. For instance, there are some displays that can't achieve either full brightness (LG OLED) or full gamut (BENQ LED projector) without being sent something tagged as PQ gamma. From what I understand your BENQ laser isn't in that category so you should send it 709 SDR for both CMS0 and CMS1 (assuming more or less default setup) and let the pro do everything else for you.



gadgetfreaky said:


> As for "limited to 709 for gamut coverage" where do you see that? I couldn't find it in the specs or manual? Manual says "Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for
> display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
> With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color
> gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3
> according to your needs."
> 
> I take this as it displays BT.2020?


"Displays" is relative. You get an image, and it adjusts the image to fit within the primaries that the display can actually achieve so it doesn't look terrible. But it can't even achieve full coverage of REC709, let alone the massive BT2020 space.

In sending both REC2020 and PQ HDR gamma to a display that doesn't achieve them you are wasting a lot of the HDMI bandwidth and adding a pair of layers of indirection in the projector. You really want to be working as close to the native response of the projector as possible unless there is some very good reason not to do so.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> Working on a new update with Jim and Pat *based on an idea I had* while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.


Can you be more specific Kris?


----------



## thrang

Wookii said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Working on a new update with Jim and Pat *based on an idea I had* while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Canâ€™️t wait for people to get hold of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you be more specific Kris?
Click to expand...

He set all the knobs to 11....(say it with a British accent for full effect...)


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> He set all the knobs to 11....(say it with a British accent for full effect...)


Is that before or after he was only supposed to blow the bloody doors off?!


----------



## thrang

As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)

So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Awesome. If you're going anywhere near the scene detection logic, there are a couple of scenes I'd noted so far with repeatable obvious slight curve jumps mid scene in recent versions (I may have seen one or two more but not wanted to stop and note them). I should note these kind of things are much, much reduced vs previous incarnations but it would be really nice to get the last few nailed. Would be worth adding them to your tests perhaps:
> 
> Narcos S1 E3 on Netflix played in HDR10 on Samsung UHD disc player, around 15:15 as the camera scans from the table to the narco "Poison" against the light coming through the window.
> LaLaLand, 6:46. UHD disc MKV 1:1 rip playing via Infuse on ATV4K or Oppo player.


Always looking at this, so I will try and look at the scenes you mention here today.



Wookii said:


> Can you be more specific Kris?


Turning the already great dynamic tone mapping to 11! 



thrang said:


> As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)
> 
> So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.


Sounds like you've been chatting it up with someone in the know  This is the crux of it, but it has morphed into more than I originally anticipated and Pat has come up with some great new code to approach it in a new way. More soon I'm sure!


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.


Are we there yet 
When do we expect to get hold of this?


----------



## thrang

Ash Sharma said:


> Are we there yet
> When do we expect to get hold of this?


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)
> 
> So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.


I think you can also flip this around. I provided two examples above where the current scene detection is arguably not cautious enough (or perhaps DTM is not smooth enough in transitioning between different parameters) as both those scenes give a hard-edges gamma curve / luma jump in the middle of the scene. Such things were happening much, much more often in the earlier releases of DTM (perhaps "less cautious") and for me personally I find all such occurrences very distracting in a movie.

I accept some folk may not find such things objectionable, but it would be nice if there really were no choice between impactful vs caution for that to be a tuneable option (much though I hate the proliferation of options!). 

I know some other DTM implementations don't change curve with such a hard edge though, so perhaps there is opportunity to improve in both respects by softening such transitions.


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> Always looking at this, so I will try and look at the scenes you mention here today.
> 
> 
> 
> Turning the already great dynamic tone mapping to 11!
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you've been chatting it up with someone in the know  This is the crux of it, but it has morphed into more than I originally anticipated and Pat has come up with some great new code to approach it in a new way. More soon I'm sure!


Wow - can wait to see this ! Thanks to you, Pat and Jim for all your work on this !


----------



## Craig Peer

thrang said:


> As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)
> 
> So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.


I agree with your observations. I imagine it's a fine line, but a little more " punch " to the picture would be great, if it doesn't bring any objectionable artifacts. I watched John Wick 2 & 3 as a double feature ( 4K Blu-ray ) last weekend with friends, and the picture looked excellent overall - especially dark scenes.


----------



## thrang

bobof said:


> I accept some folk may not find such things objectionable, but it would be nice if there really were no choice between impactful vs caution for that to be a tuneable option (much though I hate the proliferation of options!).


Not with the relative limited light output of projectors, for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Awesome. If you're going anywhere near the scene detection logic, there are a couple of scenes I'd noted so far with repeatable obvious slight curve jumps mid scene in recent versions (I may have seen one or two more but not wanted to stop and note them). I should note these kind of things are much, much reduced vs previous incarnations but it would be really nice to get the last few nailed. Would be worth adding them to your tests perhaps:
> 
> Narcos S1 E3 on Netflix played in HDR10 on Samsung UHD disc player, around 15:15 as the camera scans from the table to the narco "Poison" against the light coming through the window.
> LaLaLand, 6:46. UHD disc MKV 1:1 rip playing via Infuse on ATV4K or Oppo player.


I looked at the scenes mentioned above. The La La Land is an encode issue, not scene detection issue. If you turn dynamic off it does exactly the same thing, so it is baked in to the movie. 

The Narcos clip had some subtle variation in the scene. I saw it one time through, but not the second time. The version of DTM I am testing may be better for you, let me know when it is released as I am not sure how much of a problem it is when you watch it compared to what I'm seeing.

UPDATE, the Narcos scene is the same issue. It is baked into the scene. I imagine you are talking about right after he says poison as it shows the printer and pans up to the guy standing in front of the window and you see a flicker in luminance? This happens whether you are in dynamic or not, so again, baked into the source.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I looked at the scenes mentioned above. The La La Land is an encode issue, not scene detection issue. If you turn dynamic off it does exactly the same thing, so it is baked in to the movie.
> 
> The Narcos clip had some subtle variation in the scene. I saw it one time through, but not the second time. The version of DTM I am testing may be better for you, let me know when it is released as I am not sure how much of a problem it is when you watch it compared to what I'm seeing.
> 
> UPDATE, the Narcos scene is the same issue. It is baked into the scene. I imagine you are talking about right after he says poison as it shows the printer and pans up to the guy standing in front of the window and you see a flicker in luminance? This happens whether you are in dynamic or not, so again, baked into the source.


Well what do you know. Of course you are right - they looked the same as the previous luma jumps in the Mad Max sequence and I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Interestingly the Narcos one is barely visible with DTM off, but DTM makes it a bit more noticeable. 

I guess I'm wasted on electronics and should have got a job as a Hollywood colorist instead...! . Really surprised by the LaLaLand one as it is a complete miss (unless they intended it...)


----------



## Kris Deering

I don’t think is intentional. Looks like a miss.


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.


It's like waiting for Xmas morning when you are 5. Again !


----------



## thrang

Craig Peer said:


> It's like waiting for Xmas morning when you are 5. Again !


----------



## Kris Deering

I'm pretty sure this next update will hit on Monday or Tuesday. I found a small bug over the weekend that will be addressed on Monday, but after that it should go live. I have a feeling that most will really like the results with this new build.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> I'm pretty sure this next update will hit on Monday or Tuesday. I found a small bug over the weekend that will be addressed on Monday, but after that it should go live. I have a feeling that most will really like the results with this new build.


Let all of your customers know whether we need to update settings again...


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Let all of your customers know whether we need to update settings again...


Hopefully not !


----------



## Kris Deering

There will be only a single change. When you press left arrow and bring up the tone map menu, there is a new setting called DPad that replaces the old DLev setting. The number I recommend is a 3 or 4. 3 will give you better highlights but may give an occasional artifact (slight clipping) whereas 4 is slightly less aggressive and less of a chance of any artifacts. All the other settings stay the same.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 092019*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 092019*
- Posted 093019 
Replaced the DTM dynamic level (aka DLev) setting with a new more useful setting called dynamic pad (aka DPad). 
Added a new "adaptive" capability to DTM which allows DTM to adapt to light level changes between scene cuts. 
The adaptive feature can be enabled/disabled in the menu under *Input: Options: HDR Setup: DynamicCtrls* and defaults to enabled. 
Bugfix for DTM flickering issue. 
Bugfix for 2.40 input aspect with scale bias off was not as accurate as it should have been. 
Other small bugfixes. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Craig Peer

Thanks for the heads up Mike !


----------



## Wookii

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 092019*
> - Posted 093019
> Replaced the DTM dynamic level (aka DLev) setting with a new more useful setting called dynamic pad (aka DPad).
> Added a new "adaptive" capability to DTM which allows DTM to adapt to light level changes between scene cuts.
> The adaptive feature can be enabled/disabled in the menu under *Input: Options: HDR Setup: DynamicCtrls* and defaults to enabled.
> Bugfix for DTM flickering issue.
> Bugfix for 2.40 input aspect with scale bias off was not as accurate as it should have been.
> Other small bugfixes.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I think we need some background and explanation from @jrp on this . . .


----------



## Kris Deering

When I was helping Jim and Pat on the last big update to the tone mapping I was experimenting a lot with different things that showed there were limitations in highlights due to the "padding" used on the upper end to eliminate the chance for clipping/artifacts. I discussed with them the idea of doing a true "dynamic" tone map that enabled the user to adjust how aggressive to be when it came to the "pad" allowing the end user to vary a setting that would give more highlight pop at the expense of some possible artifacts (think of how a dynamic iris works and how more aggressive modes can sometimes show an artifact but give better results with blacks). DPad is exactly that. I've found that a level of 3 gives the best combination of highlight intensity with VERY little artifacts associated with it. 4 is also good and would give less artifacts at the expense of some highlight pop. 2 will likely show too many artifacts for most. 6 is about the same as what the DLev value of 8 was before, which is still quite good but I imagine once people have a taste of 3 or 4 they won't go back to 6.

As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system). 

So for this build end users shouldn't have to adjust any of their settings from before except that I would recommend they switch DPad to 3 or 4 to give better highlight results when watching content. Enjoy!


----------



## thrang

Superb work by Pat Jim and Kris 

I will say as a Sony 5000 user, the overall brightness is so much improved that I can run max nits at 700 or 800 instead of 400 to 500, with low ratio to do around 240-250 effective nits

This results in better blacks and still plenty of brightness and highlights as the scenes require - this also helps improve color saturation as well. Early testing for sure and things may change a bit but I am fizzed how good this looks right now.

Now I’m running an 11 foot wide screen at 90 laser, so I am not starved for light output. Wider screens might be so these settings could be be too ambitious. Still, it is worth experimenting depending upon your setup (screen size, gain, light control etc)


----------



## thrang

thrang said:


> Superb work by Pat Jim and Kris
> 
> I will say as a Sony 5000 user, the overall brightness is so much improved that I can run max nits at 700 or 800 instead of 400 to 500, with low ratio to do around 240-250 effective nits
> 
> This results in better blacks and still plenty of brightness and highlights as the scenes require - this also helps improve color saturation as well. Early testing for sure and things may change a bit but I am fizzed how good this looks right now.
> 
> Now I’m running an 11 foot wide screen at 90 laser, so I am not starved for light output. Wider screens might be so these settings could be be too ambitious. Still, it is worth experimenting depending upon your setup (screen size, gain, light control etc)


Working a bit more with Kris, who forced me to learn algebra again, I pulled out my light meter, did some peak white measurements, did more conversions and calculations than NASA did to land Apollo 11 on the moon, and came up wit 178 nits for my screen size at 90 laser, reduced to 158 or so because of my screen negative screen gain - from this, we settled on max nits of 950 and low ratio of 28 (311 effective nits)

This is significantly different than before and it simply looks stunning. Perhaps because of these changes, the image appears cleaner, less processed, and more film-like than ever.

There is appreciably more dynamic range and better color saturation.

Thanks Kris - outstanding help!


----------



## thrang

Very quick iPhone shots....


----------



## Killroy

The red neon "Hospital" sign as she is leaving the hospital is a good torture test for DTM. I have yet to see a single player get that one right.


----------



## thrang

To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)


- Measured LUX using a AEMC CA813 light meter with a 100% white Radiance Test pattern, making sure I was in the projector picture mode I use for HDR content. _Pointed at the projector not the screen_.
- Converted LUX to nits (LUX/3.1459) - (used the inverse of this calculation: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html)
- Multiplied this by SCREEN GAIN for actual NIT value
- Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
- Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu​
So my measured LUX value was 555 or so. To convert to Nits, it was 551/3.1459= 176. Multiplied by 0.9 screen gain, the NIT value at center screen was 159.

159 x6 gave me 953 for the MAX NIT value. 159 x2 gave the the low ratio target of 317, so ratio 28 was closest (311) (all math approximate here)

To check the max nit value was correct (besides Kris confirming the values!) I used a Lux to Lumen spreadsheet to input my screen size parameters, throw distance, and center screen LUX measurement. The measured peak lumens was *2634*. 

From this site https://hometheatreengineering.com/projectors-screen-sizes/, there is the following calculation:

Lumens = Nits x Screen Area (in square meters) * Pi (3.14159). For me (square meters for my screen is approx 4.7), this calculated lumens to *2608*, so quite close to the spreadsheet value.

Hope this helps... if Kris corrects my ass here, I'll update the post!


----------



## thrang

Killroy said:


> The red neon "Hospital" sign as she is leaving the hospital is a good torture test for DTM. I have yet to see a single player get that one right.


What is "right" for that?


----------



## Killroy

thrang said:


> What is "right" for that?


Damn good question! Since every player gets it differently, I am not 100% sure but there was one comparison in the madvr thread that showed that there should be separation between the letters (you should be able to see them). I will hunt down the Blu-ray to see how it shows it.

EDIT - Yeah, in the Blu-ray there is separation between the letters right in the middle of the sign and on several letters.


----------



## Kris Deering

I’ll look at that scene tomorrow. But, there is no player that does true DTM. Just “smart” static.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> The HDR flag toggling was added really just for JVC projectors where you can use it to trigger a mode change in the projector - it is separate from whether the output is 2020 or 709 (hence why it is provided as an option)
> 
> I understand the Pro can do DTM for both 2.4 (SDR) and PQ (HDR) output gamma, but you wouldn't want to output PQ gamma unless you have a very specific use case. For instance, there are some displays that can't achieve either full brightness (LG OLED) or full gamut (BENQ LED projector) without being sent something tagged as PQ gamma. From what I understand your BENQ laser isn't in that category so you should send it 709 SDR for both CMS0 and CMS1 (assuming more or less default setup) and let the pro do everything else for you.
> 
> 
> "Displays" is relative. You get an image, and it adjusts the image to fit within the primaries that the display can actually achieve so it doesn't look terrible. But it can't even achieve full coverage of REC709, let alone the massive BT2020 space.
> 
> In sending both REC2020 and PQ HDR gamma to a display that doesn't achieve them you are wasting a lot of the HDMI bandwidth and adding a pair of layers of indirection in the projector. You really want to be working as close to the native response of the projector as possible unless there is some very good reason not to do so.


Do you know who "measured" the BenQ LK990 in terms of it's coverage of REC709? Was it Kris? I'm wondering if this projector is one of the projectors that can achieve BT2020 if you send it a flagged HDR signal? When I toggle CMS1 to send HDR2020 vs rec709 the picture is actually better. For example on Netflix Dolby Vision show Politics, when there's a scene with a blue sky I see banding in the sky, artifact like (compression like), when it's HDR2020 it's very light compared to when it's rec709. So wondering what's going on. when it's rec709 there's a slight graininess to the picture on some scenes, and the colors are a little softer. But, when it's HDR, colors pop, although some colors are overblown a bit like red and sometimes skin tones when there's red in the picture. I'm wondering if this can be tuned.


----------



## stefanop

thrang said:


> Working a bit more with Kris, who forced me to learn algebra again, I pulled out my light meter, did some peak white measurements, did more conversions and calculations than NASA did to land Apollo 11 on the moon, and came up wit 178 nits for my screen size at 90 laser, reduced to 158 or so because of my screen negative screen gain - from this, we settled on max nits of 950 and low ratio of 28 (311 effective nits)
> 
> This is significantly different than before and it simply looks stunning. Perhaps because of these changes, the image appears cleaner, less processed, and more film-like than ever.
> 
> There is appreciably more dynamic range and better color saturation.
> 
> Thanks Kris - outstanding help!


I've got a screen like yours in dimensions (Screen Research), I tried your values just for fast test and image is very good but blacks are a lot far from yours. In your pictures blacks are very deep, Plasma-like. In my calibrated setup are washed out in comparison. Do you utilize some black compensation? ...Off, Limited, Full in Sony menu or blacks in Radiance left-button menu?


----------



## MDesigns

gadgetfreaky said:


> Do you know who "measured" the BenQ LK990 in terms of it's coverage of REC709?


 @Javs I believe has done the best measurements of the LK990.

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Do you know who "measured" the BenQ LK990 in terms of it's coverage of REC709? Was it Kris? I'm wondering if this projector is one of the projectors that can achieve BT2020 if you send it a flagged HDR signal? When I toggle CMS1 to send HDR2020 vs rec709 the picture is actually better. For example on Netflix Dolby Vision show Politics, when there's a scene with a blue sky I see banding in the sky, artifact like (compression like), when it's HDR2020 it's very light compared to when it's rec709. So wondering what's going on. when it's rec709 there's a slight graininess to the picture on some scenes, and the colors are a little softer. But, when it's HDR, colors pop, although some colors are overblown a bit like red and sometimes skin tones when there's red in the picture. I'm wondering if this can be tuned.


A few folk have published measurements.
Benq published the gamut triangle on their website, they just "helpfully" left off the reference gamuts of REC709, P3 and 2020 so you can't easily get the information; and instead compared it to a "lamp" projector. (hint: it is a loaded comparison to a crappy lamp projector)









These projectors have an excess of blue saturation with a wrong hue for both 2020 and P3 I believe but fall very short on red and green (and fall short of REC709 too in those respects I recall). 

You might find that in the different modes you end up with different things happening in the BENQ inbuilt CMS, which may explain what you're seeing, but without fully understanding how each mode tracks the standards for both colorimetry and gamma you'll have no idea which gives more accurate reproduction. This would involve measuring them (or getting that information from other users).


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> The HDR flag toggling was added really just for JVC projectors where you can use it to trigger a mode change in the projector - it is separate from whether the output is 2020 or 709 (hence why it is provided as an option)
> 
> I understand the Pro can do DTM for both 2.4 (SDR) and PQ (HDR) output gamma, but you wouldn't want to output PQ gamma unless you have a very specific use case. For instance, there are some displays that can't achieve either full brightness (LG OLED) or full gamut (BENQ LED projector) without being sent something tagged as PQ gamma. From what I understand your BENQ laser isn't in that category so you should send it 709 SDR for both CMS0 and CMS1 (assuming more or less default setup) and let the pro do everything else for you.
> 
> 
> "Displays" is relative. You get an image, and it adjusts the image to fit within the primaries that the display can actually achieve so it doesn't look terrible. But it can't even achieve full coverage of REC709, let alone the massive BT2020 space.
> 
> In sending both REC2020 and PQ HDR gamma to a display that doesn't achieve them you are wasting a lot of the HDMI bandwidth and adding a pair of layers of indirection in the projector. You really want to be working as close to the native response of the projector as possible unless there is some very good reason not to do so.





MDesigns said:


> @Javs I believe has done the best measurements of the LK990.
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


Thanks! @Javs did you by chance measure when the projector displayed 2020? wondering what is happening when the projector seed an HDR2020 signal with the HDR flag on. driving me nuts trying to figure out the difference. each setting has a pro con, with 2020 a better picture, just the colors are off and wondering if calibrating fixes it.


----------



## Ash Sharma

What is the best movie to watch using Radiance Pro DTM to showcase HDR?
I agree this may be dependent on what all is in your video chain but.... still asking


----------



## Javs

gadgetfreaky said:


> Thanks! @Javs did you by chance measure when the projector displayed 2020? wondering what is happening when the projector seed an HDR2020 signal with the HDR flag on. driving me nuts trying to figure out the difference. each setting has a pro con, with 2020 a better picture, just the colors are off and wondering if calibrating fixes it.


I don't have it on hand but if you click my name and go to threads I started you will find heaps of colour gamut measurements incl 2020 for the lk990 in my 'jvc x9500 and Ben lk990 comparison's thread.

HCFR doesn't show a percentage but you will see where it falls short. Hint. It's a lot.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ash Sharma said:


> What is the best movie to watch using Radiance Pro DTM to showcase HDR?
> I agree this may be dependent on what all is in your video chain but.... still asking


On the opening scene of 'Revenent' I could see for the first time the two color tone of the fabric in the tall boy's (not Leonardo's son) sweatpants - very cool...


----------



## thrang

stefanop said:


> I've got a screen like yours in dimensions (Screen Research), I tried your values just for fast test and image is very good but blacks are a lot far from yours. In your pictures blacks are very deep, Plasma-like. In my calibrated setup are washed out in comparison. Do you utilize some black compensation? ...Off, Limited, Full in Sony menu or blacks in Radiance left-button menu?


Remember that screenshots tend to be a bit different that what you see by eye - there is a bit more detail in black areas that the photos don’t show identically. Nonetheless washed out black levels indicate something is amiss with your basic calibration

I use Limited Iris in the 5000, contrast enhancer is off. No black or gamma adjustments in DTM.

When Kris calibrated my setup he determined Sony brightness should be set at 42 - is your setup calibrated?


----------



## stefanop

thrang said:


> Remember that screenshots tend to be a bit different that what you see by eye - there is a bit more detail in black areas that the photos don’t show identically. Nonetheless washed out black levels indicate something is amiss with your basic calibration
> 
> I use Limited Iris in the 5000, contrast enhancer is off. No black or gamma adjustments in DTM.
> 
> When Kris calibrated my setup he determined Sony brightness should be set at 42 - is your setup calibrated?


Yes it is. But calibration was made a year ago. Lots of upgrade with Radiance in a year (great upgrades to me). Better have a check and eventually a new calibration. I've got exactly same parameters but Brightness (set to 48). Thank you thrang, very helpful.


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)
> 
> 
> - Measured LUX using a AEMC CA813 light meter with a 100% white Radiance Test pattern, making sure I was in the projector picture mode I use for HDR content. _Pointed at the projector not the screen_.
> - Converted LUX to nits (LUX/3.1459) - (used the inverse of this calculation: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html)
> - Multiplied this by SCREEN GAIN for actual NIT value
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu​
> So my measured LUX value was 555 or so. To convert to Nits, it was 551/3.1459= 176. Multiplied by 0.9 screen gain, the NIT value at center screen was 159.
> 
> 159 x6 gave me 953 for the MAX NIT value. 159 x2 gave the the low ratio target of 317, so ratio 28 was closest (311) (all math approximate here)
> 
> To check the max nit value was correct (besides Kris confirming the values!) I used a Lux to Lumen spreadsheet to input my screen size parameters, throw distance, and center screen LUX measurement. The measured peak lumens was *2634*.
> 
> From this site https://hometheatreengineering.com/projectors-screen-sizes/, there is the following calculation:
> 
> Lumens = Nits x Screen Area (in square meters) * Pi (3.14159). For me (square meters for my screen is approx 4.7), this calculated lumens to *2608*, so quite close to the spreadsheet value.
> 
> Hope this helps... if Kris corrects my ass here, I'll update the post!


I didn't think there was any way to come with an approximate nits value using a light meter (e.g. a lux value).


----------



## dlinsley

Ian_Currie said:


> I didn't think there was any way to come with an approximate nits value using a light meter (e.g. a lux value).


 @thrang post looks right. Here's my cheat sheet:

10.76 lux = 1fc = 1 lumens/sqft = fL
1fL = 3.43 nits
lumens * 10.76 / area = lux
fL = lux * gain / 10.76
fL * area / gain = lumens


----------



## thrang

dlinsley said:


> @thrang post looks right. Here's my cheat sheet:
> 
> 10.76 lux = 1fc = 1 lumens/sqft = fL
> 1fL = 3.43 nits
> lumens * 10.76 / area = lux
> fL = lux * gain / 10.76
> fL * area / gain = lumens


Across the globe, fellow AVS’er heads are exploding...


----------



## Wookii

thrang said:


> Across the globe, fellow AVS’er heads are exploding...


----------



## dlinsley

I compiled all that when considering moving from my RS600 to a slightly bigger, but less gain, screen and the RS3000 + DCR lens (which I did). However, like Robbie Hart's song about Linda's love for him, it was all (somewhat) bs due to bulb variance. DTM (and the DCR as I just wouldn't have the brightness) FTW though


----------



## Kris Deering

Killroy said:


> The red neon "Hospital" sign as she is leaving the hospital is a good torture test for DTM. I have yet to see a single player get that one right.


Not sure where you're getting the info on "right" vs "wrong". I looked at that scene with zero tone mapping, and DTM and they look identical in terms of how distinguishable the words are. Then I looked at the SDR grade and it looked the same (letters only have a second or so where they have any gaps between them). I also looked at the Dolby Vision grade and it looked the same way. So at least in my setup, it looks the same in every single usage case (aside from the increase in color saturation between the HDR and SDR grades).


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure where you're getting the info on "right" vs "wrong". I looked at that scene with zero tone mapping, and DTM and they look identical in terms of how distinguishable the words are. Then I looked at the SDR grade and it looked the same (letters only have a second or so where they have any gaps between them). I also looked at the Dolby Vision grade and it looked the same way. So at least in my setup, it looks the same in every single usage case (aside from the increase in color saturation between the HDR and SDR grades).


If you're telling me that your set up with the Lumagen can get that sign to show up properly then I can amend my statement that the Lumagen is a player that can do it. My calibrated RS3000 with MadVR has a hard time with that one and the other screen shots I have seen from others show the same highlight crush and/or blooming.

Can you post a screen shot of the frame cause that would be awesome to get me over the edge in my decision to buy a Lumagen.


----------



## thrang

Killroy said:


> If you're telling me that your set up with the Lumagen can get that sign to show up properly then I can amend my statement that the Lumagen is a player that can do it. My calibrated RS3000 with MadVR has a hard time with that one and the other screen shots I have seen from others show the same highlight crush and/or blooming.
> 
> Can you post a screen shot of the frame cause that would be awesome to get me over the edge in my decision to buy a Lumagen.


You’re looking for something that doesn’t really exist - the shot starts with the background already in soft focus and racks quickly to a more shallow depth of field as Lucy approaches the camera - it should not be expected to be distinct.

Even the white lettering on the blue sign which was soft but legible at the start is completely blurred as the focus racks


----------



## Killroy

thrang said:


> You’re looking for something that doesn’t really exist - the shot starts with the background already in soft focus and racks quickly to a more shallow depth of field as Lucy approaches the camera - it should not be expected to be distinct.
> 
> Even the white lettering on the blue sign which was soft but legible at the start is completely blurred as the focus racks


But that's the issue, on the SDR Blu-ray the letters can be distinguished, I did not say readable. There is a slight separation in the gradients so you can actually see the outline of the letters. And there was a shot on the MadVR thread that someone posted with a raw image from the UHD that showed that the detail visible on the SDR Blu-ray is actually there on the UHD. But there was hard time duplicating it on screen due to the HDR. MadVr comes pretty darn close but there is some highlight blooming that makes it look, shall we say ugly. It's kinda like the spear on BvS. That one is another torture test that everyone uses as a benchmark. I personally don't like that one. I prefer neon signs, or scenes lit by neon (looking at you Atomic Blonde club scene), on several movies to test HDR since it is a very hard color to replicate. Even film (still, not motion) has a hard time doing it. I also have not found settings that I like for Atomic Blonde that doesn't make it (that club scene) look over-saturated. Yes, there are some that come close...but not quite there yet.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.
> 
> Now on to the fun stuff:
> 
> We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
> 
> We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.
> 
> This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.
> 
> We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.
> 
> We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.
> 
> The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.
> 
> ======
> 
> People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.
> 
> Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.
> 
> Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.
> 
> =====
> 
> I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.


Hi, is there an update to the training doc? Some of the things have changed, and just want to make sure i'm doing everything right. Thanks!


----------



## thrang

Killroy said:


> But that's the issue, on the SDR Blu-ray the letters can be distinguished, I did not say readable. There is a slight separation in the gradients so you can actually see the outline of the letters. And there was a shot on the MadVR thread that someone posted with a raw image from the UHD that showed that the detail visible on the SDR Blu-ray is actually there on the UHD. But there was hard time duplicating it on screen due to the HDR. MadVr comes pretty darn close but there is some highlight blooming that makes it look, shall we say ugly. It's kinda like the spear on BvS. That one is another torture test that everyone uses as a benchmark. I personally don't like that one. I prefer neon signs, or scenes lit by neon (looking at you Atomic Blonde club scene), on several movies to test HDR since it is a very hard color to replicate. Even film (still, not motion) has a hard time doing it. I also have not found settings that I like for Atomic Blonde that doesn't make it (that club scene) look over-saturated. Yes, there are some that come close...but not quite there yet.


The scenes starts with a few frames in soft focus with a few letters barely delineated - it then quickly racks out of focus. The focal plane is causing the blurring/blooming

Look at the Christmas tree not the dead pine needles in the carpet


----------



## Killroy

thrang said:


> The scenes starts with a few frames in soft focus with a few letters barely delineated - it then quickly racks out of focus. The focal plane is causing the blurring/blooming
> 
> Look at the Christmas tree not the dead pine needles in the carpet


But if the player or projector can't properly show me the dead pine needles on the carpet how am I supposed to believe that the live Christmas tree is accurately displayed? The devil is in the details.


----------



## thrang

Killroy said:


> But if the player or projector can't properly show me the dead pine needles on the carpet how am I supposed to believe that the live Christmas tree is accurately displayed? The devil is in the details.


Keep looking and report back.


----------



## Kris Deering

Killroy said:


> But that's the issue, on the SDR Blu-ray the letters can be distinguished, I did not say readable. There is a slight separation in the gradients so you can actually see the outline of the letters. And there was a shot on the MadVR thread that someone posted with a raw image from the UHD that showed that the detail visible on the SDR Blu-ray is actually there on the UHD. But there was hard time duplicating it on screen due to the HDR. MadVr comes pretty darn close but there is some highlight blooming that makes it look, shall we say ugly. It's kinda like the spear on BvS. That one is another torture test that everyone uses as a benchmark. I personally don't like that one. I prefer neon signs, or scenes lit by neon (looking at you Atomic Blonde club scene), on several movies to test HDR since it is a very hard color to replicate. Even film (still, not motion) has a hard time doing it. I also have not found settings that I like for Atomic Blonde that doesn't make it (that club scene) look over-saturated. Yes, there are some that come close...but not quite there yet.


Again, the letters look the same in my system regardless of the playback system. The letters are only deliniated for short second before the focus takes them out. This is in every version I have here and on two different displays (SDR, HDR10, DV). So not sure what shots you're seeing that you're trying to compare to.

The scene in BvS is an authoring issue, not a player issue. But some tone mapping solutions came up with a way to fix the issue by desaturating when the encode should have to start with (Mad Max has similar issues).


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Javs said:


> I don't have it on hand but if you click my name and go to threads I started you will find heaps of colour gamut measurements incl 2020 for the lk990 in my 'jvc x9500 and Ben lk990 comparison's thread.
> 
> HCFR doesn't show a percentage but you will see where it falls short. Hint. It's a lot.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


Thanks! I'll dig thru. I spent 3hrs last night toggling a bunch of settings. I'm using AppleTV and was using Netflix Dolby Vision Politician show, and Alita 4k via itunes . When I set Colorspace SR709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 Auto - everything is a little lighter, colors lose the punch, but when scenes have things like a flashlight there's an unnatural glow around it. red brakelights, etc. 


What do I do with Gamma2LUT? Should it be HDR or SDR?
If Gamma2LUT is HDR, I have to crankx Maxlight up to 2800 . If I put Gamma2LUT as SDR, it's down to 100 and pic feels a little dark.
Should I adjust ratio/shape/tran/hdsat?


The picture looks a LOT better if I set colorspace HDR2020, HDR flag on, and 2020- 601//709 OFF. The Gamma2LUT HDR and MaxLight 3000. The picture is sharp thoughout, picture has punch. 

Can someone tell me Gamma2LUT and MaxLight settings should be?


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system).


Can you give a bit more information about what a single adjustment and two adjustments per frame is? I guess this is related to some step size either in % or absolute number of nits which is the most it adjusts the parameters by per single frame?
I thought I saw some (very) slight flickering in a couple of scenes before you posted the above info. I didn't have much time though and fiddling with the adaptive option is a bit annoying to A-B as it is burried in the menu.

Overall very impressed though with the image from this latest release.


----------



## madshi

Killroy said:


> If you're telling me that your set up with the Lumagen can get that sign to show up properly then I can amend my statement that the Lumagen is a player that can do it. My calibrated RS3000 with MadVR has a hard time with that one and the other screen shots I have seen from others show the same highlight crush and/or blooming.


You mean this neon sign?

Lucy Red Neon Sign

This is the first frame after the scene cut. Top image is SDR (upscaled), bottom image is HDR (tone mapped to BT.709). I don't see any highlight crush or blooming here? If you're sending BT.2020 to your RS3000, it might be the RS3000 doing the blooming/crushing, maybe? Try calibrating your RS3000 to DCI-P3 instead of BT.2020, that might improve the results.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> When I was helping Jim and Pat on the last big update to the tone mapping I was experimenting a lot with different things that showed there were limitations in highlights due to the "padding" used on the upper end to eliminate the chance for clipping/artifacts. I discussed with them the idea of doing a true "dynamic" tone map that enabled the user to adjust how aggressive to be when it came to the "pad" allowing the end user to vary a setting that would give more highlight pop at the expense of some possible artifacts (think of how a dynamic iris works and how more aggressive modes can sometimes show an artifact but give better results with blacks). DPad is exactly that. I've found that a level of 3 gives the best combination of highlight intensity with VERY little artifacts associated with it. 4 is also good and would give less artifacts at the expense of some highlight pop. 2 will likely show too many artifacts for most. 6 is about the same as what the DLev value of 8 was before, which is still quite good but I imagine once people have a taste of 3 or 4 they won't go back to 6.
> 
> As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system).
> 
> So for this build end users shouldn't have to adjust any of their settings from before except that I would recommend they switch DPad to 3 or 4 to give better highlight results when watching content. Enjoy!





thrang said:


> To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)
> 
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu[/INDENT]


So I uploaded the new firmware last night, and changed my DML and low ratio setting in line with Greg's post above - which I assume is your recommendation Kris? Initial impressions are positive, there is more apparent pop to the image for sure. However it looks like average brightness in the nit for nit range is increasing also; skin tones increase in brightness also for example compared to the previous DTM iteration (and my previous DML settings) when DPad is on 3 or 4 (I've settled initially on setting this at 4, as 3 seems to brighten everything a touch too much).

Whilst that isn't a problem in itself, what has always bugged me with tone mapping is I have no way of telling if I have that average scene brightness (of that nit-for-nit range) set correctly. No one has yet offered up a test pattern (for example an 18% window of a certain ST2084 code value) and said "under correct settings, this pattern should measure X nits".

So without that ability, and whilst we wait on a formal response from Jim - is a fixed multiplier of 6 for the DML and a fixed multiplier of 2 to the low ratio/effective nits, now the definitive recommendation for all projector users? Which of course has changed from the recommendation of a multiplier of 4-5 for DML and a low ratio of around 19 for the previous iteration?


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Thanks! I'll dig thru. I spent 3hrs last night toggling a bunch of settings. I'm using AppleTV and was using Netflix Dolby Vision Politician show, and Alita 4k via itunes . When I set Colorspace SR709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 Auto - everything is a little lighter, colors lose the punch, but when scenes have things like a flashlight there's an unnatural glow around it. red brakelights, etc.
> 
> 
> What do I do with Gamma2LUT? Should it be HDR or SDR?
> If Gamma2LUT is HDR, I have to crankx Maxlight up to 2800 . If I put Gamma2LUT as SDR, it's down to 100 and pic feels a little dark.
> Should I adjust ratio/shape/tran/hdsat?
> 
> 
> The picture looks a LOT better if I set colorspace HDR2020, HDR flag on, and 2020- 601//709 OFF. The Gamma2LUT HDR and MaxLight 3000. The picture is sharp thoughout, picture has punch.
> 
> Can someone tell me Gamma2LUT and MaxLight settings should be?


Current recommendation is maxlight is around 6x measured peak nits for SDR 2.4 gamma output.
Gamma2LUT depends on the LUT you have loaded - HDR means the LUT is describing a "perfect" PQ gamma display, SDR means it is describing a 2.4 power law gamma display.

It is hard to understand what is your process here, if you're just twiddling knobs and trying to get a pleasing visual result it's going to be very hard to get good advice. Kris has already given you details of what is likely to get the most accurate result from across the interwebs, but it sounds like your "calibrated eyeball 1.0" prefers other settings?

You might find more information about this particular projector in the owner's thread - the details of what output modes are best to use will be the same for Lumagen and for MadVR users. If you're not calibrating and you wanted a shot at accuracy you'd want to choose factory modes known to be closest to given standards, and then set the Lumagen to be outputting to those standards.

Personally the best result for you would seem to be either to invest in the equipment to measure and understand your display and modes better yourself if you're going for accuracy, or to hire a professional with experience of Lumagen units and 3DLUTS to do it for you.


----------



## jqmn

I don't understand your statement. With a ST2084 curve, a measured peak white below 10K nits and black it is a calculated value as to what the 18% window should be; values will change if you apply knees and roll-offs to the curve. What Lumagen does is a different matter since as far as I know there isn't an update to the spec for dynamic processing other than meta data based. I assume they are essentially generating their own values by scene and then doing some secret sauce thing as well.



Wookii said:


> Whilst that isn't a problem in itself, what has always bugged me with tone mapping is I have no way of telling if I have that average scene brightness (of that nit-for-nit range) set correctly. No one has yet offered up a test pattern (for example an 18% window of a certain ST2084 code value) and said "under correct settings, this pattern should measure X nits".
> 
> So without that ability, and whilst we wait on a formal response from Jim - is a fixed multiplier of 6 for the DML and a fixed multiplier of 2 to the low ratio/effective nits, now the definitive recommendation for all projector users? Which of course has changed from the recommendation of a multiplier of 4-5 for DML and a low ratio of around 19 for the previous iteration?


----------



## Wookii

jqmn said:


> I don't understand your statement. With a ST2084 curve, a measured peak white below 10K nits and black it is a calculated value as to what the 18% window should be; values will change if you apply knees and roll-offs to the curve. What Lumagen does is a different matter since as far as I know there isn't an update to the spec for dynamic processing other than meta data based. I assume they are essentially generating their own values by scene and then doing some secret sauce thing as well.


Yes, but the lowest part of the ST2084 curve is usually maintained nit-for-nit (or maybe for projectors 2 nits input to 1 nit output) - the tone mapping affects values above that range - by doing so, normal mid-tone areas of the image (i.e. those that do not contain specular highlights, such a normally illuminated faces etc) should look largely the same or similar irrespective of whether a user is running their set-up at a peak luminance of 80nits or 150nits. Common sense therefore dictates then that we should be able to determine a test pattern, whose luminance lies within that range, that can be measured to determine whether the brightness of those mid-tones is at the right level when using the tone mapping settings, rather than trying to set it by eye.

With SDR of course we use the 100% white pattern for this, and set peak luminance (to 50 nits for example), but we can't do this with tone mapped HDR as that peak luminance varies wildly as you point out - so I believe we need a reference point within the nit-for-nit range that we can use to set average image luminance when adjusting tone mapping settings (not just in the Radiance Pro, but for whatever tone mapping device is being used).


----------



## Killroy

madshi said:


> You mean this neon sign?
> 
> Lucy Red Neon Sign
> 
> This is the first frame after the scene cut. Top image is SDR (upscaled), bottom image is HDR (tone mapped to BT.709). I don't see any highlight crush or blooming here? If you're sending BT.2020 to your RS3000, it might be the RS3000 doing the blooming/crushing, maybe? Try calibrating your RS3000 to DCI-P3 instead of BT.2020, that might improve the results.


That would be the one! I guess I will try DCI-P3 and try again. Thanks for the verification @madshi.


----------



## MDesigns

Wookii said:


> Yes, but the lowest part of the ST2084 curve is usually maintained nit-for-nit (or maybe for projectors 2 nits input to 1 nit output) - the tone mapping affects values above that range - by doing so, normal mid-tone areas of the image (i.e. those that do not contain specular highlights, such a normally illuminated faces etc) should look largely the same or similar irrespective of whether a user is running their set-up at a peak luminance of 80nits or 150nits. Common sense therefore dictates then that we should be able to determine a test pattern, whose luminance lies within that range, that can be measured to determine whether the brightness of those mid-tones is at the right level when using the tone mapping settings, rather than trying to set it by eye.
> 
> With SDR of course we use the 100% white pattern for this, and set peak luminance (to 50 nits for example), but we can't do this with tone mapped HDR as that peak luminance varies wildly as you point out - so I believe we need a reference point within the nit-for-nit range that we can use to set average image luminance when adjusting tone mapping settings (not just in the Radiance Pro, but for whatever tone mapping device is being used).


I think with MadVR they have found an automatic way to do this, you just need to know the real nits of your display. You input the real nits, then MadVR never ever shows anything brighter than it is in the source.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Can you give a bit more information about what a single adjustment and two adjustments per frame is? I guess this is related to some step size either in % or absolute number of nits which is the most it adjusts the parameters by per single frame?
> I thought I saw some (very) slight flickering in a couple of scenes before you posted the above info. I didn't have much time though and fiddling with the adaptive option is a bit annoying to A-B as it is burried in the menu.
> 
> Overall very impressed though with the image from this latest release.


Pat or Jim would have to give the specific details. Pat told me that with each step it would allow one bit of information to change. The default allows one. Also, if you go to the menu where you can turn it off and on, if you hit ALT it allows you to have that menu smaller on the display so you can A/B in real time!



madshi said:


> You mean this neon sign?
> 
> Lucy Red Neon Sign
> 
> This is the first frame after the scene cut. Top image is SDR (upscaled), bottom image is HDR (tone mapped to BT.709). I don't see any highlight crush or blooming here? If you're sending BT.2020 to your RS3000, it might be the RS3000 doing the blooming/crushing, maybe? Try calibrating your RS3000 to DCI-P3 instead of BT.2020, that might improve the results.


That is what I am seeing as well, but only for the first frame or two after the scene cut then the focal point of the lens changes and the letters bloom out.



Wookii said:


> So I uploaded the new firmware last night, and changed my DML and low ratio setting in line with Greg's post above - which I assume is your recommendation Kris? Initial impressions are positive, there is more apparent pop to the image for sure. However it looks like average brightness in the nit for nit range is increasing also; skin tones increase in brightness also for example compared to the previous DTM iteration (and my previous DML settings) when DPad is on 3 or 4 (I've settled initially on setting this at 4, as 3 seems to brighten everything a touch too much).
> 
> Whilst that isn't a problem in itself, what has always bugged me with tone mapping is I have no way of telling if I have that average scene brightness (of that nit-for-nit range) set correctly. No one has yet offered up a test pattern (for example an 18% window of a certain ST2084 code value) and said "under correct settings, this pattern should measure X nits".
> 
> So without that ability, and whilst we wait on a formal response from Jim - is a fixed multiplier of 6 for the DML and a fixed multiplier of 2 to the low ratio/effective nits, now the definitive recommendation for all projector users? Which of course has changed from the recommendation of a multiplier of 4-5 for DML and a low ratio of around 19 for the previous iteration?


Jim will have to chime in on this. It is my understanding that the Lumagen is maintaining nearly complete nit for nit for the values UNDER your effective display max light on the low end with a a slight curve starting in near the upper part. But the Lumagen is also taking into account the actual APL of the scene, which may be higher than the SDR version. Maybe Jim can chime in with more info on this. When I look at values in real time for most content, it is actually pretty rare to find scenes that don't exceed the normal SDR range unless they are REALLY dark. 



MDesigns said:


> I think with MadVR they have found an automatic way to do this, you just need to know the real nits of your display. You input the real nits, then MadVR never ever shows anything brighter than it is in the source.


That would only work properly if the scene had absolutely nothing that was above your actual peak value. It would also make the gamma change from scene to scene because the headroom required for the highlights would then push into the normal range. I could see them wanting to preserve the first 100 nits as close to nit for nit as possible (at a 2x) but if you are lower than that you'd start seeing issues if they stayed perfect nit for nit and then shifted. So I don't think it is as simple as you're stating.


----------



## Wookii

MDesigns said:


> I think with MadVR they have found an automatic way to do this, you just need to know the real nits of your display. You input the real nits, then MadVR never ever shows anything brighter than it is in the source.


Well Lumagen's DTM probably wouldn't normally go brighter than the source either, assuming a massive error hadn't been made with the DML setting, but for a projector you may not necessarily want it the same brightness as the source. You might want it closer to half the source nits for the nit-for-nit range. So you still need a way to tell the system that. Beyond that, I'm more of a numbers guy. I do favour a more automated system, but I like to be able to take a verification measurement and have a target number to hang my hat on. It is the basis of accurate calibration after all.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wookii said:


> Well Lumagen's DTM probably wouldn't normally go brighter than the source either, assuming a massive error hadn't been made with the DML setting, but for a projector you may not necessarily want it the same brightness as the source. You might want it closer to half the source nits for the nit-for-nit range. So you still need a way to tell the system that. Beyond that, I'm more of a numbers guy. I do favour a more automated system, but I like to be able to take a verification measurement and have a target number to hang my hat on. It is the basis of accurate calibration after all.


I agree for the most part, but with HDR there really isn't a way to have an "accurate" calibration as there is no standard. You can have an accurate P3/2020 calibration and an accurate grayscale/gamma calibration for the baseline, but once you get into the PQ aspect there is not "right" way to do it per se. 

With the 2x multiplier on the bottom, you're essentially defining the "nit for nit" range of the image for the Radiance. It isn't a perfect nit for nit, because there always has to be so much assigned to start the roll off, but the majority of that range is still nit for nit. Again, Jim could probably shed more light on this as it is all based on his curves.


----------



## Craig Peer

The new DTM firmware works really well. Watched some of GOTG2, Ready Player One and nearly all of 13 Hours last night. I'm using the DPad setting 3. I may try 4 and compare. But so far I like the picture a lot.


----------



## SSnarski

Craig Peer said:


> The new DTM firmware works really well. Watched some of GOTG2, Ready Player One and nearly all of 13 Hours last night. I'm using the DPad setting 3. I may try 4 and compare. But so far I like the picture a lot.



I loaded the new lumagan update last night and placed the dpad on 3, watched the new Spiderman Far from Home 4K Disc that released yesterday, the movie was ok not great, but Sony did a fantasic job with the picture quality on this disc, this by far has to be the sharpest 4K disc i have seen on my projection system, i picked up the Dr Strange 4K Disc as well, i will have to watch this one soon, really loved this movie, but now they have added the Atmos track as well can't wait to see and hear the improvements.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> I agree for the most part, but with HDR there really isn't a way to have an "accurate" calibration as there is no standard. You can have an accurate P3/2020 calibration and an accurate grayscale/gamma calibration for the baseline, but once you get into the PQ aspect there is not "right" way to do it per se.
> 
> With the 2x multiplier on the bottom, you're essentially defining the "nit for nit" range of the image for the Radiance. It isn't a perfect nit for nit, because there always has to be so much assigned to start the roll off, but the majority of that range is still nit for nit. Again, Jim could probably shed more light on this as it is all based on his curves.


Thanks Kris - yes that’s what I’m getting at, it would be good to know whether of not, for example if your low ratio effective nits is 300 nits (given a x2 multiplier to your measured peakY of 150nits), the 100nit and below values are being sent to the display 2 nits input to one nit output. I could then put up a 100nit test pattern and presumably measure 50nits off screen?


----------



## bobof

Wookii said:


> Thanks Kris - yes that’s what I’m getting at, it would be good to know whether of not, for example if your low ratio effective nits is 300 nits (given a x2 multiplier to your measured peakY of 150nits), the 100nit and below values are being sent to the display 2 nits input to one nit output. I could then put up a 100nit test pattern and presumably measure 50nits off screen?


This sounds like there could be a case for some new test patterns for testing behaviour of dynamic tone mapping implementations. Perhaps something @sspears could think about for V2 of the UHD disc that is in the works.

I'm imagining several sequences of grey scale windowed patches where somewhere on the screen (I guess as far away from the centre as possible, maybe a border around the edge of the screen) you'd have a significantly sized amount of varying peak nit levels so that you could see what happens to the greyscale patches when the analysed maxCLL / maxFALL from a DTM engine is in operation. 

So you could have a 100 nit border with patches from 0-100 nit, a 200 nit border with parches from 0-200 nit, etc. Maybe have peaks of 100, 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 10000.


----------



## Kris Deering

SSnarski said:


> I loaded the new lumagan update last night and placed the dpad on 3, watched the new Spiderman Far from Home 4K Disc that released yesterday, the movie was ok not great, but Sony did a fantasic job with the picture quality on this disc, this by far has to be the sharpest 4K disc i have seen on my projection system, i picked up the Dr Strange 4K Disc as well, i will have to watch this one soon, really loved this movie, but now they have added the Atmos track as well can't wait to see and hear the improvements.


I picked this one up today but haven't had a chance to look at it yet. We watched the new Men In Black movie the other night and the picture quality was breathtaking for detail and the HDR really lent a lot to the image. So might be worth checking out!



Wookii said:


> Thanks Kris - yes that’s what I’m getting at, it would be good to know whether of not, for example if your low ratio effective nits is 300 nits (given a x2 multiplier to your measured peakY of 150nits), the 100nit and below values are being sent to the display 2 nits input to one nit output. I could then put up a 100nit test pattern and presumably measure 50nits off screen?


I don't think that is how it works. He didn't build in a multiplier to everything. BUT, if you had put in that your max is 100 nits for low (which means your measured is about 50 nits) you are essentially building in a 2x multiplier already. Stacey built a 100 nit test pattern into the new 4K disc at my request. It is in the advanced video section. I believe it is one of the last patterns in the list. You could measure there and see. 

The problem with setting a generic 2x for everything 100 nit and below is you are assuming that everyone did this with SDR, which isn't the case. Most of my clients want it brighter (most ask for around 20 fL, not 14-16). What Jim is doing is leaving as much range as he can nit for nit, but you have to build in for what will eventually be the curve. And that curve is going to be different depending on how high the content needs to stretch. So if you are putting in a higher display max light, you are getting more nit for nit range before the curve starts, but there isn't a hard fast rule that I'm aware of. I looked at the graphical representation of his curves when I was at his place a month or so ago and you could see the most of the curves were nit for nit for most of the same amount until you got to the really high nit values. 



bobof said:


> This sounds like there could be a case for some new test patterns for testing behaviour of dynamic tone mapping implementations. Perhaps something @sspears could think about for V2 of the UHD disc that is in the works.
> 
> I'm imagining several sequences of grey scale windowed patches where somewhere on the screen (I guess as far away from the centre as possible, maybe a border around the edge of the screen) you'd have a significantly sized amount of varying peak nit levels so that you could see what happens to the greyscale patches when the analysed maxCLL / maxFALL from a DTM engine is in operation.
> 
> So you could have a 100 nit border with patches from 0-100 nit, a 200 nit border with parches from 0-200 nit, etc. Maybe have peaks of 100, 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 10000.


That wouldn't work because the patches would all be in the same frame. The only way this would work is if the pattern wasn't fixed and was updating like live video. I gave Stacey the idea of using dynamic MaxCLL/DML values for the 4K disc based on what I saw Panasonic doing with their test disc. Stacey took it a step forward and made it so you could change the actual grade of the content on the fly rather than just the metadata. So you could bounce between different patterns he has using the up arrow to select a different grade, but I don't know how much that will tell you about how the DTM is going to act with real content playing. Since Stacey's montage is a regrade each time, it doesn't work quite the way you'd want for evaluation. It also gets significantly brighter overall with each grade up (APL on his grades are really high). But the Lumagen does a great job with all the graded montages on that disc when I've tested it.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> That wouldn't work because the patches would all be in the same frame. The only way this would work is if the pattern wasn't fixed and was updating like live video. I gave Stacey the idea of using dynamic MaxCLL/DML values for the 4K disc based on what I saw Panasonic doing with their test disc. Stacey took it a step forward and made it so you could change the actual grade of the content on the fly rather than just the metadata. So you could bounce between different patterns he has using the up arrow to select a different grade, but I don't know how much that will tell you about how the DTM is going to act with real content playing. Since Stacey's montage is a regrade each time, it doesn't work quite the way you'd want for evaluation. It also gets significantly brighter overall with each grade up (APL on his grades are really high). But the Lumagen does a great job with all the graded montages on that disc when I've tested it.


I think perhaps it wasn't a very clear explanation (it was clear in my mind).
This is several sequences of test images that you would be able to cursor through to take measurements at relevant stages.
The first image in each sequence would be black, in an attempt to reset any scene detection algorithm.
Next you would have an image with a border around the screen of the given peak for the sequence. Say 100 nits. Centre of the window is black. The idea would be that you might reasonably expect this to have triggered detection of a scene with MaxCLL of 100.
The next x images you can cursor through have the same 100 nit border, but have a single windowed patch in the centre of the screen. This should allow you to plot the response of the tone mapping algorithm when "in" a certain scene. I said above you would only measure patches up to the scene peak, but actually it probably makes sense to be able to go beyond the scene peak.
It would be important that the images transition seemlessly.
Repeat for different peak nits in the border. The list I gave was just a suggestion. It occurs to me that you'd probably also want some "scenes" with much lower peaks than 100 nits to prove that it truly were "nit for nit" in dark scenes.

There are probably two distinct sets that make sense for various purposes. One where the border is constant and the windowed patch is varied; another where the windowed patch is constant and the border is varied. 

Of course there are questions about how big the borders etc might need to be to see that they reasonably trigger the various mechanisms in the tone mapping algorithm you're looking at, and it is always possible that transitioning from one image to the next itself triggers a scene detection change instead of a highlight detection. There may need to be a 3rd set of images where the whole image remains the same but an additional highlight above the peak is displayed at some location on the screen.


----------



## Wookii

Kris Deering said:


> I don't think that is how it works. He didn't build in a multiplier to everything. BUT, if you had put in that your max is 100 nits for low (which means your measured is about 50 nits) you are essentially building in a 2x multiplier already. Stacey built a 100 nit test pattern into the new 4K disc at my request. It is in the advanced video section. I believe it is one of the last patterns in the list. You could measure there and see.
> 
> The problem with setting a generic 2x for everything 100 nit and below is you are assuming that everyone did this with SDR, which isn't the case. Most of my clients want it brighter (most ask for around 20 fL, not 14-16). What Jim is doing is leaving as much range as he can nit for nit, but you have to build in for what will eventually be the curve. And that curve is going to be different depending on how high the content needs to stretch. So if you are putting in a higher display max light, you are getting more nit for nit range before the curve starts, but there isn't a hard fast rule that I'm aware of. I looked at the graphical representation of his curves when I was at his place a month or so ago and you could see the most of the curves were nit for nit for most of the same amount until you got to the really high nit values.


Thanks Kris, but I think you've misunderstood what I meant slightly - I'm wasn't suggesting a x2 low ratio should be baked in, I was just using it as an example to determine where we might be able to measure a pattern to verify results. We need something to adjust mid-tone brightness to taste (I run SDR at 18FtL also) - if the 'Low Ratio' setting is it, then fair enough. 

Running though the example just for the sake of clarity:

- You measure a peakY off screen of 150nits
- So you set a 6x multiplier for DML giving 900
- And you set a low ratio to achieve a 2 x ratio of your measured peakY = 300 nits (which currently comes out around 28) [again the 2x multiplier is just an example, you could use x1.8 or x2.2 or whatever to taste]

By definition does that mean that the nit for nit range is output at 1/2 the luminance of the source (as you've used a 2x multiplier when setting the low ratio)?

Given those figures then, and assuming the above assumption on the nit-for-nit range is correct - is it then safe to deduce that 100 nits and below will definitely be within the nit-for-nit range? 

If so, on that basis we should be able to throw up a 100nit HDR test pattern and measure 50 nits. If it doesn't, then we can adjust DML or Low Ratio until we hit 50nits. Of course our target can be higher or lower to taste; e.g. 40nits off the 100nit pattern, or 60 nits off the 100 nit pattern - but at least we have a system to verify the multiplier to the nit-for-nit range rather than eyeballing it alone.

What that also allows us to do is match the APL of the nit-for-nit range between two system - so if one user has a peakY of 150nits, and another has a peakY of 100nits, but they both adjust Low Ratio until they measure the same nits from a 100nit test pattern - the mid-tone luminance should be identical, and their images in the nit-for-nit range should be very similar (assuming similar accurate 2.4 gamma base calibrations).

I'll consider stumping up for the new Spears disc then, and try that pattern and see what happens.


----------



## thrang

Are shape and transition disabled with latest release ? I’m not seeing any change to the image regardless of content


----------



## SSnarski

Kris Deering said:


> I picked this one up today but haven't had a chance to look at it yet. We watched the new Men In Black movie the other night and the picture quality was breathtaking for detail and the HDR really lent a lot to the image. So might be worth checking out!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that is how it works. He didn't build in a multiplier to everything. BUT, if you had put in that your max is 100 nits for low (which means your measured is about 50 nits) you are essentially building in a 2x multiplier already. Stacey built a 100 nit test pattern into the new 4K disc at my request. It is in the advanced video section. I believe it is one of the last patterns in the list. You could measure there and see.
> 
> The problem with setting a generic 2x for everything 100 nit and below is you are assuming that everyone did this with SDR, which isn't the case. Most of my clients want it brighter (most ask for around 20 fL, not 14-16). What Jim is doing is leaving as much range as he can nit for nit, but you have to build in for what will eventually be the curve. And that curve is going to be different depending on how high the content needs to stretch. So if you are putting in a higher display max light, you are getting more nit for nit range before the curve starts, but there isn't a hard fast rule that I'm aware of. I looked at the graphical representation of his curves when I was at his place a month or so ago and you could see the most of the curves were nit for nit for most of the same amount until you got to the really high nit values.
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't work because the patches would all be in the same frame. The only way this would work is if the pattern wasn't fixed and was updating like live video. I gave Stacey the idea of using dynamic MaxCLL/DML values for the 4K disc based on what I saw Panasonic doing with their test disc. Stacey took it a step forward and made it so you could change the actual grade of the content on the fly rather than just the metadata. So you could bounce between different patterns he has using the up arrow to select a different grade, but I don't know how much that will tell you about how the DTM is going to act with real content playing. Since Stacey's montage is a regrade each time, it doesn't work quite the way you'd want for evaluation. It also gets significantly brighter overall with each grade up (APL on his grades are really high). But the Lumagen does a great job with all the graded montages on that disc when I've tested it.



Kris,


I picked up the new MIB International when it released a while back, watched it on my OLED TV upstairs, I will have to re-watch in the theater room, maybe this winter when things slow down a bit, i have been real busy. But i have to say the improvements with the Lumagen Rad Pro with DTM has been a game changer for sure!


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)
> 
> 
> - Measured LUX using a AEMC CA813 light meter with a 100% white Radiance Test pattern, making sure I was in the projector picture mode I use for HDR content. _Pointed at the projector not the screen_.
> - Converted LUX to nits (LUX/3.1459) - (used the inverse of this calculation: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html)
> - Multiplied this by SCREEN GAIN for actual NIT value
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu​
> So my measured LUX value was 555 or so. To convert to Nits, it was 551/3.1459= 176. Multiplied by 0.9 screen gain, the NIT value at center screen was 159.
> 
> 159 x6 gave me 953 for the MAX NIT value. 159 x2 gave the the low ratio target of 317, so ratio 28 was closest (311) (all math approximate here)
> 
> To check the max nit value was correct (besides Kris confirming the values!) I used a Lux to Lumen spreadsheet to input my screen size parameters, throw distance, and center screen LUX measurement. The measured peak lumens was *2634*.
> 
> From this site https://hometheatreengineering.com/projectors-screen-sizes/, there is the following calculation:
> 
> Lumens = Nits x Screen Area (in square meters) * Pi (3.14159). For me (square meters for my screen is approx 4.7), this calculated lumens to *2608*, so quite close to the spreadsheet value.
> 
> Hope this helps... if Kris corrects my ass here, I'll update the post!


I wonder if someone can help me troubleshoot my attempt at measuring my nits.

I am using the same light meter as Thrang. I'm using a 100% white pattern and of course holding the meter at the screen facing the projector. My projector is set to use the picture mode I use for HDR (tone-mapped) content My lux measurement is a measly 117 (versus Thrang's 555). 117 / 3.1459 = 37. Multiplied by my screen gain of 1.3 I get 48 nits. This can't be correct.

I noticed that I had another pattern (from the same source) that consisted of a full frame of white (versus a white rectangle in the middle of the screen) and measuring that I come up with 163 lux. Better, but 163 / 3.1459 = 51. Multiplied by my screen gain of 1.3 I get 67 nits. Still not looking correct. I'm pretty sure I have over 100 nits (I suspect somewhere between 100 & 125 as those values result in the most natural looking HDR tone mapping when using madVR).

I suspect I'm using the wrong test pattern. I can't explain why I get a stronger measurement with the full screen 100% white vs the rectangle (my theater is a black cave so no reflections). 

Any ideas?


----------



## Craig Peer

Ian_Currie said:


> I wonder if someone can help me troubleshoot my attempt at measuring my nits.
> 
> I am using the same light meter as Thrang. I'm using a 100% white pattern *and of course holding the meter at the screen facing the projector. * My projector is set to use the picture mode I use for HDR (tone-mapped) content My lux measurement is a measly 117 (versus Thrang's 555). 117 / 3.1459 = 37. Multiplied by my screen gain of 1.3 I get 48 nits. This can't be correct.
> 
> I noticed that I had another pattern (from the same source) that consisted of a full frame of white (versus a white rectangle in the middle of the screen) and measuring that I come up with 163 lux. Better, but 163 / 3.1459 = 51. Multiplied by my screen gain of 1.3 I get 67 nits. Still not looking correct. I'm pretty sure I have over 100 nits (I suspect somewhere between 100 & 125 as those values result in the most natural looking HDR tone mapping when using madVR).
> 
> I suspect I'm using the wrong test pattern. I can't explain why I get a stronger measurement with the full screen 100% white vs the rectangle (my theater is a black cave so no reflections).
> 
> Any ideas?


You probably should take any measurements with the AEMC CA813 with a grain of salt compared to other meters / readings. When I got my Sper Scientific 840020C ( N.I.S.T. traceable certificate of calibration ), readings with it showed my AEMC CA813 was 10% low in comparison. YMMV. 

Corrected / edited now that I've had 2 cups of coffee and am fully awake.


----------



## thrang

Craig Peer said:


> I've always measured brightness off the screen. Not facing the projector. And you probably should take any measurements with the AEMC CA813 with a grain of salt compared to other meters / readings. When I got my Sper Scientific 840020C ( N.I.S.T. traceable certificate of calibration ), readings with it showed my AEMC CA813 was 10% low in comparison. Just FYI.
> 
> Bottom line - can't you just measure lux off the screen with a 100 IRE test pattern like normal and convert the foot lamberts to nits ?


I don’t know that it’s easy to get an accurate reading off the screen - the shadow caused by the probe is an issue (and some screens have various reflectivity based on angle I think) to avoid the shadow you need to pull back further from the screen and I think the impacts accuracy - I only get 240 best case depending upon angle and distance to screen, implying I have. .5 gain screen! Which I don’t....


----------



## ccool96

Craig Peer said:


> I've always measured brightness off the screen. Not facing the projector. And you probably should take any measurements with the AEMC CA813 with a grain of salt compared to other meters / readings. When I got my Sper Scientific 840020C ( N.I.S.T. traceable certificate of calibration ), readings with it showed my AEMC CA813 was 10% low in comparison. Just FYI.
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line - can't you just measure lux off the screen with a 100 IRE test pattern like normal and convert the foot lamberts to nits ?




I have never heard of anyone using that style meter to read the light output directly off the screen. Are you sure about that? 

I used a Minolta LS100 to read the exact fL directly off the screen. But previously I also used a AEMC CA813 and I would place that meter at the screen with the probe facing the projector. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ccool96

Ian_Currie said:


> I wonder if someone can help me troubleshoot my attempt at measuring my nits.
> 
> 
> 
> I am using the same light meter as Thrang. I'm using a 100% white pattern and of course holding the meter at the screen facing the projector. My projector is set to use the picture mode I use for HDR (tone-mapped) content My lux measurement is a measly 117 (versus Thrang's 555). 117 / 3.1459 = 37. Multiplied by my screen gain of 1.3 I get 48 nits. This can't be correct.
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed that I had another pattern (from the same source) that consisted of a full frame of white (versus a white rectangle in the middle of the screen) and measuring that I come up with 163 lux. Better, but 163 / 3.1459 = 51. Multiplied by my screen gain of 1.3 I get 67 nits. Still not looking correct. I'm pretty sure I have over 100 nits (I suspect somewhere between 100 & 125 as those values result in the most natural looking HDR tone mapping when using madVR).
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect I'm using the wrong test pattern. I can't explain why I get a stronger measurement with the full screen 100% white vs the rectangle (my theater is a black cave so no reflections).
> 
> 
> 
> Any ideas?




What size screen do you have? What fabric? And what power level and iris setting were you using on your RS4500. 

With my 5000ES, I have 42fL when measured directly off the screen with a Minolta LS100. Which is equal to 143 nits or 450 lux. 

With 67 nits you would be getting right at 20fL. Sounds like you might of measured your light output when it was set for SDR viewing? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Des511

Is it ok to roll back to the previous update?


----------



## Craig Peer

ccool96 said:


> I have never heard of anyone using that style meter to read the light output directly off the screen. Are you sure about that?
> 
> I used a Minolta LS100 to read the exact fL directly off the screen. But previously I also used a AEMC CA813 and I would place that meter at the screen with the probe facing the projector.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You're 100% right. I wrote that prior to my first cup of coffee this morning. Obviously I was 1/2 asleep and 100 brain dead ( I'm like that before coffee ).


----------



## thrang

Des511 said:


> Is it ok to roll back to the previous update?


Yes


----------



## Craig Peer

thrang said:


> I don’t know that it easy to get a reading off the screen - the shadow caused by the probe is an issue (and some screens have various reflectivity based on angle I think) to avoid the shadow you need to pull back further from the screen and I think the impacts accuracy - I only get 240 best case depending up angle and distance to screen, implying I have. .5 gain screen! Which I don’t....


Note to self - drink coffee before posting anything first thing in the morning.  You are correct. But I would say nobody should stake their life on comparisons of readings from one AEMC CA813 to the next.


----------



## Craig Peer

I flipped back and forth between a DPad setting of 3 and 4 last night ( and between 2 and 5 just to see what the effect is ). I think overall I like the brighter picture using 3. I definitely like what this DTM firmware is doing. I think it's the best yet.


----------



## Ian_Currie

ccool96 said:


> What size screen do you have? What fabric? And what power level and iris setting were you using on your RS4500.
> 
> With my 5000ES, I have 42fL when measured directly off the screen with a Minolta LS100. Which is equal to 143 nits or 450 lux.
> 
> With 67 nits you would be getting right at 20fL. Sounds like you might of measured your light output when it was set for SDR viewing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I appreciate the reply.

11 foot wide 2.35:1 Stewart ST130 (see signature). I'm using mid laser with -5 iris setting and Mode 2 laser dimming. This *is* an SDR setting (although with HDR color setting) because I use dynamic tone mapping.

I had ChadB calibrate my projector and his documentation says that it was 29fl before his calibration and 16 afterwards (going as high as 27 if I don't use the iris) so maybe the real nits value is around 67. 

Still doesn't explain why the two test patterns measured differently. Which test pattern do you use for this purpose?

I will try entering 67 nits in madVR and see what happens, but I've been using values between 100 and 130 and thought 100 was a little fatiguing (i.e. bright) so I can only imagine what 67 will be like.


----------



## ccool96

Ian_Currie said:


> I appreciate the reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 11 foot wide 2.35:1 Stewart ST130 (see signature). I'm using mid laser with -5 iris setting and Mode 2 laser dimming. This *is* an SDR setting (although with HDR color setting) because I use dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> 
> 
> I had ChadB calibrate my projector and his documentation says that it was 29fl before his calibration and 16 afterwards (going as high as 27 if I don't use the iris) so maybe the real nits value is around 67.
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't explain why the two test patterns measured differently. Which test pattern do you use for this purpose?
> 
> 
> 
> I will try entering 67 nits in madVR and see what happens, but I've been using values between 100 and 130 and thought 100 was a little fatiguing (i.e. bright) so I can only imagine what 67 will be like.




Sounds like the reading is about spot on then. I understand it’s your SDR setting with HDR color, since using DTM, but many still use higher light output settings for HDR content with DTM compared to actual SDR content. 

DTM is fantastic but I don’t consider DTM a replacement for light output. DTM can work wonders for those who don’t have extra light output to work with, but for those that do have the headroom, why not make use of it. 

While 16fL looks ok for SDR and can look ok with DTM, 30+fL with DTM looks even that much better. 

When watching HDR content with DTM why not try setting your max light based on either mid laser with the iris fully open or even high laser with the iris closed down some? 

I can’t imagine wanting to watch HDR content at 16fL, especially when you have such a nice projector with headroom. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> I appreciate the reply.
> 
> 11 foot wide 2.35:1 Stewart ST130 (see signature). I'm using mid laser with -5 iris setting and Mode 2 laser dimming. This *is* an SDR setting (although with HDR color setting) because I use dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> I had ChadB calibrate my projector and his documentation says that it was 29fl before his calibration and 16 afterwards (going as high as 27 if I don't use the iris) so maybe the real nits value is around 67.
> 
> Still doesn't explain why the two test patterns measured differently. Which test pattern do you use for this purpose?
> 
> I will try entering 67 nits in madVR and see what happens, but I've been using values between 100 and 130 and thought 100 was a little fatiguing (i.e. bright) so I can only imagine what 67 will be like.


Given your variables I would expect you to have somewhere around 60-75 nits. Mid laser is not that far off what I would get with the RS3000 and my screen is very similar (though yours is 1.3 gain and mine is 1.0, but any time I've compared the two you DO NOT get a 30% jump, it is really around half of that). So I would try about 80 nits max. That means in the Lumagen your Display Max Light in the CMS would be 480 and your ratio for the low set should be fine at 28.


----------



## thrang

ccool96 said:


> When watching HDR content with DTM why not try setting your max light based on either mid laser with the iris fully open or even high laser with the iris closed down some?
> 
> I can’t imagine wanting to watch HDR content at 16fL, especially when you have such a nice projector with headroom.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Exactly - you should not be using your SDR709 settings (light output) for your DTM output from the Lumagen. Is the how your calibrator set you up?


----------



## Ian_Currie

Kris Deering said:


> Given your variables I would expect you to have somewhere around 60-75 nits. Mid laser is not that far off what I would get with the RS3000 and my screen is very similar (though yours is 1.3 gain and mine is 1.0, but any time I've compared the two you DO NOT get a 30% jump, it is really around half of that). So I would try about 80 nits max. That means in the Lumagen your Display Max Light in the CMS would be 480 and your ratio for the low set should be fine at 28.


Thanks, Kris, I appreciate it.

I use both the Lumagen and madVR (the latter for my ripped movies, the former when playing actual discs) and so I input 67 nits into madVR to see how it looked. I was half expecting the whites to be overblown (and the image too bright) but to my surprise that didn't happen and the image was much improved (including contrast) in most respects.

Now to try the Lumagen... 

ccool96: I'm still not sure about sacrificing contrast (opening up the iris or dropping the dynamic laser) to get more nits, but I'll experiment with it.


----------



## Ian_Currie

thrang said:


> Exactly - you should not be using your SDR709 settings (light output) for your DTM output from the Lumagen. Is the how your calibrator set you up?


Admittedly, no. When ChadB set me up for HDR it was with his custom curves with the projector in true HDR mode (and full light output). Since I now use dynamic tone mapping (HDR->SDR) I basically use his SDR settings but change the color space to his HDR calibration and choose 2.4 gamma. I'm guessing this is close but not perfect.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ian_Currie said:


> Thanks, Kris, I appreciate it.
> 
> I use both the Lumagen and madVR (the latter for my ripped movies, the former when playing actual discs) and so I input 67 nits into madVR to see how it looked. I was half expecting the whites to be overblown (and the image too bright) but to my surprise that didn't happen and the image was much improved (including contrast) in most respects.
> 
> Now to try the Lumagen...
> 
> ccool96: I'm still not sure about sacrificing contrast (opening up the iris or dropping the dynamic laser) to get more nits, but I'll experiment with it.


Ian,
You are one of the few using both MadVR and Lumagen - and could give the best overview what is in store with the upcoming Envy as compared to the Lumagen.
Could you comment in DTM through Lumagen versus MadVR for UHD 4K Discs?
If one is better than other then by what percentage in your opinion.
Thanks in advance.
Ash


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> Admittedly, no. When ChadB set me up for HDR it was with his custom curves with the projector in true HDR mode (and full light output). Since I now use dynamic tone mapping (HDR->SDR) I basically use his SDR settings but change the color space to his HDR calibration and choose 2.4 gamma. I'm guessing this is close but not perfect.


I would use Chad's HDR mode and just change the gamma from import to 2.4 and the keep the rest the same. This would probably give you better results that using his SDR setup which would be for a completely different light output.


----------



## mandragora

Hello guys noob question 

it is safe to update the firmware and leaving everything untouched and still enjoying a good picture ?

My projector/screen was calibrated a while ago by @Gordon but I don't the means to ask him to come over anytime soon.

So I was wondering if I can safely update the firmware without destroying completely the picture quality 

thanks for the help, 

Ben


----------



## mandragora

Hello guys noob question 

it is safe to update the firmware and leaving everything untouched and still enjoying a good picture ?

My projector/screen was calibrated a while ago by @Gordon but I don't the means to ask him to come over anytime soon.

So I was wondering if I can safely update the firmware without destroying completely the picture quality 

thanks for the help, 

Ben


----------



## Wookii

mandragora said:


> Hello guys noob question
> 
> it is safe to update the firmware and leaving everything untouched and still enjoying a good picture ?
> 
> My projector/screen was calibrated a while ago by @Gordon but I don't the means to ask him to come over anytime soon.
> 
> So I was wondering if I can safely update the firmware without destroying completely the picture quality
> 
> thanks for the help,
> 
> Ben


I'm sure Gordon will guide you through any changes he may recommend you to make, based on the calibration he completed for you. I would recommend you contact him privately.


----------



## mandragora

Wookii said:


> I'm sure Gordon will guide you through any changes he may recommend you to make, based on the calibration he completed for you. I would recommend you contact him privately.


thanks for the recommendation and I did as you suggested.

I was wondering if Jim or anybody else expert in the radiance can give a bit of insights on this.
Recently I've seen so many new options and tweaks that honestly I do not know where to start 

so I was hoping for an official answer from Jim or anybody else like "yes you can update ... you won't get the best but surely not worse" 

does it make sense ? 

thanks for the help anyway.

Ben


----------



## Eventidal

thrang said:


> Are shape and transition disabled with latest release ? I’m not seeing any change to the image regardless of content


No, they are not disabled. But now they only seem to work in specific scenes.

But with my dtm settings I could not see ANY changes while altering the d-pad level. Anybody else with that issue?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mandragora said:


> thanks for the recommendation and I did as you suggested.
> 
> I was wondering if Jim or anybody else expert in the radiance can give a bit of insights on this.
> Recently I've seen so many new options and tweaks that honestly I do not know where to start
> 
> so I was hoping for an official answer from Jim or anybody else like "yes you can update ... you won't get the best but surely not worse"
> 
> does it make sense ?
> 
> thanks for the help anyway.
> 
> Ben



for clarification. you can update then reset the hdr tonemap settings to defaults then put dpad to 4 and you wont be far out. look at what your cms hdr max light is currently at and then set ratio to give you a value 1/3rd of it.


----------



## mandragora

Gordon Fraser said:


> for clarification. you can update then reset the hdr tonemap settings to defaults then put dpad to 4 and you wont be far out. look at what your cms hdr max light is currently at and then set ratio to give you a value 1/3rd of it.


I'll give it a try hoping to do not screw up things 

thanks @Gordon


----------



## dlinsley

mandragora said:


> I'll give it a try hoping to do not screw up things [/MENTION]


If you haven't done so, though Gordon probably has a copy, backup your current settings using the config tool so you can always go back if you make a drastic mistake: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities

Chose the Download from the Radiance option then Save to file.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Ash Sharma said:


> Ian,
> You are one of the few using both MadVR and Lumagen - and could give the best overview what is in store with the upcoming Envy as compared to the Lumagen.
> Could you comment in DTM through Lumagen versus MadVR for UHD 4K Discs?
> If one is better than other then by what percentage in your opinion.
> Thanks in advance.
> Ash


Hey Ash,
I honestly felt the Lumagen was well behind madVR when it came to DTM but recent updates to the Lumagen make it pretty much the equal of madVR at the moment. It's probably fair to say both products will see improvements as well. I would be happy with either solution for UHD movies. 

I am so grateful for both products. It wasn't that long ago when so many UHDs were a frustrating experience, now they are pure joy.


----------



## giomania

So if I only planned on adjusting Dpad is it safe to update tonight?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ian_Currie said:


> Hey Ash,
> I honestly felt the Lumagen was well behind madVR when it came to DTM but recent updates to the Lumagen make it pretty much the equal of madVR at the moment. It's probably fair to say both products will see improvements as well. I would be happy with either solution for UHD movies.
> 
> I am so grateful for both products. It wasn't that long ago when so many UHDs were a frustrating experience, now they are pure joy.


Thanks Ian for the input - I watched the movie 'Crawl' on K Escape, the pciture was breathtaking - as Lon had posted - the Radiance DTM is a must for VW5000 owners. The unit is rock solid and there are so many additional benefits such as Auto AR 3D LUT etc.
All this time IMHO the JVC RS4500 picture is hard to beat and that was the projector I would have bought if it had 5000 Lumens - but after adding the DCR and ESPECIALLY the Lumagen Pro DTM, the picture meets or beats the RS4500 but I have the additional Lumens required for my screen size.
The Radiance Pro DTM makes me go through all my HDR movies one more time...


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Just updating to the new version now. Please could someone explain how to set the ratio value? I see mention of 2x the actual NITs reading, but not how this relates to the ratio value.

If it helps I'm working on an actual NITs value of 50 (I know it's low compared to most on here, but that's what I'm working with right now).

I would set my MAX NIT value to 300 (ie actual x6) and the low ratio target would therefore be 100, so what do I need to set the low ratio to?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kelvin1965S said:


> Just updating to the new version now. Please could someone explain how to set the ratio value? I see mention of 2x the actual NITs reading, but not how this relates to the ratio value.
> 
> If it helps I'm working on an actual NITs value of 50 (I know it's low compared to most on here, but that's what I'm working with right now).
> 
> I would set my MAX NIT value to 300 (ie actual x6) and the low ratio target would therefore be 100, so what do I need to set the low ratio to?



If you play a movie and press left arrow to throw up the RATIO part and go to it when you adjust it tells you the "equivalent" max nits value you setting with each "click"


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Great thanks Gordon.


----------



## thebland

*092019 Question*

In loading the NEW 092019 firmware, It came up as DPAD '6' after initial install. I changed it to '3'. Is that all there is to adjust to . get the full benefit in my current calibration?

Thanks!


----------



## pjones

DTM question for folks who use an Apple TV 4K as a source for their Radiance Pro—and to be clear this is _just_ about screen saver clips, so it's not a big deal, but I'm still curious. If you have your Apple TV 4K's video output set to HDR (even if you have "match range" enabled) so that the menus/UI are output as HDR, do you notice that some of the screen saver images appear to have really blown out highlights, with DTM enabled? Among the current clips in the screen saver rotation, this phenomenon is especially noticeable in the scene of earth from orbit.

The really weird thing is, or was, that with previous firmware versions, if I just changed the *DLev* setting at all, even changing it back and forth to its original value (4 or 8 or whatever), the blown-out image would snap to something much more natural-looking—until the scene would change to another screen saver clip, which might appear to have blown-out highlights again. Now that I've updated to the latest firmware, *092019*, I still see the same phenomenon (only with the Apple TV 4K screen saver clips), but there is no longer a *DLev* setting, and adjusting the new *DPad* setting doesn't have the same mitigating effect. Disabling DTM altogether makes the image look much more natural, but enabling it again brings back the blown-out highlights for the same clip.

Again, I haven't noticed anything similar when watching actual HDR program content, so it's not a big deal and at this point I'm mostly curious if others see the same phenomenon and if the cause is known. (My display is a JVC RS1000 projector, and I have my Radiance Pro sending it SDR2020 for HDR inputs.)


----------



## Ian_Currie

Ash Sharma said:


> Thanks Ian for the input - I watched the movie 'Crawl' on K Escape, the pciture was breathtaking - as Lon had posted - the Radiance DTM is a must for VW5000 owners. The unit is rock solid and there are so many additional benefits such as Auto AR 3D LUT etc.
> All this time IMHO the JVC RS4500 picture is hard to beat and that was the projector I would have bought if it had 5000 Lumens - but after adding the DCR and ESPECIALLY the Lumagen Pro DTM, the picture meets or beats the RS4500 but I have the additional Lumens required for my screen size.
> The Radiance Pro DTM makes me go through all my HDR movies one more time...


Hey Ash, interesting about Crawl... I have the SDR version (no UHD was released) and see that there is a 1080p HDR version on Kaleidescape store. I don't see a HDR version anywhere else, weird that they seem to have an exclusive.

But $36 is just crazy...


----------



## jtjjen

Ian_Currie said:


> Hey Ash, interesting about Crawl... I have the SDR version (no UHD was released) and see that there is a 1080p HDR version on Kaleidescape store. I don't see a HDR version anywhere else, weird that they seem to have an exclusive.
> 
> But $36 is just crazy...


It’s a digital release only - Vudu has it too (and I assume Apple). Also, it’s full 4K.

John


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ian_Currie said:


> Hey Ash, interesting about Crawl... I have the SDR version (no UHD was released) and see that there is a 1080p HDR version on Kaleidescape store. I don't see a HDR version anywhere else, weird that they seem to have an exclusive.
> 
> But $36 is just crazy...


I think you meant 4k and not 1080p
K Escape is Pricey no doubt... but now I don't have to hoard movies I just buy them when I am ready to watch as they take 30 minutes tops to load and even lesser.
Check out the K Escape owners forum there are many movies available in 4K UHD and in HDR on K and also many jewels on 1080p HD that are not available on disc in HD or not at all. All K movies are bit for bit and there is a rumor they are higher bit rate than disc.... although many are missing immersive audio.


----------



## MAttHEATLifer

Ash Sharma said:


> I think you meant 4k and not 1080p
> K Escape is Pricey no doubt... but now I don't have to hoard movies I just buy them when I am ready to watch as they take 30 minutes tops to load and even lesser.
> Check out the K Escape owners forum there are many movies available in 4K UHD and in HDR on K and also many jewels on 1080p HD that are not available on disc in HD or not at all. All K movies are bit for bit and there is a rumor they are higher bit rate than disc.... although many are missing immersive audio.


You are correct about higher bit rates

Avengers Endgame is great example, 4K HDR movie is 103.3 GB just for the movie where as 4K disc version was only a 66GB disc...


----------



## Ian_Currie

Ash Sharma said:


> I think you meant 4k and not 1080p
> K Escape is Pricey no doubt... but now I don't have to hoard movies I just buy them when I am ready to watch as they take 30 minutes tops to load and even lesser.
> Check out the K Escape owners forum there are many movies available in 4K UHD and in HDR on K and also many jewels on 1080p HD that are not available on disc in HD or not at all. All K movies are bit for bit and there is a rumor they are higher bit rate than disc.... although many are missing immersive audio.


I meant 1080p because the store seemed to suggest it was (it said HDR but not UHD HDR). Good to know it was 2160p.

That K stuff isn't for me as I like to have all my movies on my own server for easy, fast access (and of course I prefer to use madVR on 1080p titles) and I wouldn't be interested in investing in the hardware (plus those crazy movie prices) but it's great that it's out there and successful - and that they have exclusives. I did check Apple iTunes for Crawl and their version is only 1080p SDR. 

So yes, sounds like your K + Lumagen combo is perfect for you.


----------



## Ian_Currie

MAttHEATLifer said:


> You are correct about higher bit rates
> 
> Avengers Endgame is great example, 4K HDR movie is 103.3 GB just for the movie where as 4K disc version was only a 66GB disc...


That is very interesting.


----------



## MAttHEATLifer

Ian_Currie said:


> I meant 1080p because the store seemed to suggest it was (it said HDR but not UHD HDR). Good to know it was 2160p.
> 
> That K stuff isn't for me as I like to have all my movies on my own server for easy, fast access (and of course I prefer to use madVR on 1080p titles) and I wouldn't be interested in investing in the hardware (plus those crazy movie prices) but it's great that it's out there and successful - and that they have exclusives. I did check Apple iTunes for Crawl and their version is only 1080p SDR.
> 
> So yes, sounds like your K + Lumagen combo is perfect for you.


In the Kaleidescape Movie Store UHD means just 4K with no HDR and HDR means 4K with HDR...

Attached picture showing iTunes is 4K HDR, plus Dolby Vision...


----------



## MAttHEATLifer

Ian_Currie said:


> That is very interesting.


Article about Kaleidescape’s Movie Store process...

https://www.cineluxe.com/kaleidescapes-amazing-transfers/


----------



## gadgetfreaky

pjones said:


> DTM question for folks who use an Apple TV 4K as a source for their Radiance Pro—and to be clear this is _just_ about screen saver clips, so it's not a big deal, but I'm still curious. If you have your Apple TV 4K's video output set to HDR (even if you have "match range" enabled) so that the menus/UI are output as HDR, do you notice that some of the screen saver images appear to have really blown out highlights, with DTM enabled? Among the current clips in the screen saver rotation, this phenomenon is especially noticeable in the scene of earth from orbit.
> 
> The really weird thing is, or was, that with previous firmware versions, if I just changed the *DLev* setting at all, even changing it back and forth to its original value (4 or 8 or whatever), the blown-out image would snap to something much more natural-looking—until the scene would change to another screen saver clip, which might appear to have blown-out highlights again. Now that I've updated to the latest firmware, *092019*, I still see the same phenomenon (only with the Apple TV 4K screen saver clips), but there is no longer a *DLev* setting, and adjusting the new *DPad* setting doesn't have the same mitigating effect. Disabling DTM altogether makes the image look much more natural, but enabling it again brings back the blown-out highlights for the same clip.
> 
> Again, I haven't noticed anything similar when watching actual HDR program content, so it's not a big deal and at this point I'm mostly curious if others see the same phenomenon and if the cause is known. (My display is a JVC RS1000 projector, and I have my Radiance Pro sending it SDR2020 for HDR inputs.)


Yeah I have mine as 4k SDR with HDR enabled, otherwise I get too much hdmi blanking out when I'm surfing around netflix


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> Current recommendation is maxlight is around 6x measured peak nits for SDR 2.4 gamma output.
> Gamma2LUT depends on the LUT you have loaded - HDR means the LUT is describing a "perfect" PQ gamma display, SDR means it is describing a 2.4 power law gamma display.
> 
> It is hard to understand what is your process here, if you're just twiddling knobs and trying to get a pleasing visual result it's going to be very hard to get good advice. Kris has already given you details of what is likely to get the most accurate result from across the interwebs, but it sounds like your "calibrated eyeball 1.0" prefers other settings?
> 
> You might find more information about this particular projector in the owner's thread - the details of what output modes are best to use will be the same for Lumagen and for MadVR users. If you're not calibrating and you wanted a shot at accuracy you'd want to choose factory modes known to be closest to given standards, and then set the Lumagen to be outputting to those standards.
> 
> Personally the best result for you would seem to be either to invest in the equipment to measure and understand your display and modes better yourself if you're going for accuracy, or to hire a professional with experience of Lumagen units and 3DLUTS to do it for you.


Yes, you are right, I unfortunately am twiddling knobs  . Kris and others aren't in LA anytime soon, so i'm trying to get a good picture until I can get a professional to calibrate. Anyone in LA want to come by? 
I'll just put the settings Kris recommended and wait till I can get a professional calibrator.


----------



## pjones

gadgetfreaky said:


> Yeah I have mine as 4k SDR with HDR enabled, otherwise I get too much hdmi blanking out when I'm surfing around netflix


I have our Apple TV 4K outputting 4K HDR 24Hz by default (with match rate + range) for similar reasons—HDR/24Hz matches the program content we're most often watching these days, so using it for the menus as well avoids most resync blanking.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

pjones said:


> I have our Apple TV 4K outputting 4K HDR 24Hz by default (with match rate + range) for similar reasons—HDR/24Hz matches the program content we're most often watching these days, so using it for the menus as well avoids most resync blanking.


With match rate on, i've had lip sync issues with an HDR movie last night. after seeing this post, I just realized that when I get a 23.98Hz input, and out 23.98Hz I am getting a little shakiness in the picture (seen when I launch the menu of radiance).
If I then set the radiance to only 50Hz and 60Hz (menu 0874) and input is 24Hz out is 60Hz, it's fine. if I enable 24Hz on the radiance menu 0872 I get the juttering again.

So is it the radiance? myprojector? or appleTV? Should I just turn off frame rate matching on the appletv? am I missing out on anything by watching movies at 60Hz instead of the intended 24Hz? what setting on resolution & Hz should I set the appleTV. 4K SDR 60Hz, 4KHDR 60Hz, or any other frequency? 50Hz, 24Hz?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

pjones said:


> I have our Apple TV 4K outputting 4K HDR 24Hz by default (with match rate + range) for similar reasons—HDR/24Hz matches the program content we're most often watching these days, so using it for the menus as well avoids most resync blanking.


and do you have chroma 4:2:2 or 4:2:0


----------



## pjones

gadgetfreaky said:


> hmm, 24Hz not 60Hz? I also had lip sync issues on a 4kHDR vudu movie last night with frame rate on in appletv 4k so turned that off. I'll try 24Hz


Yes 24Hz (for the menus) because most TV shows and movies we watch on the Apple TV are natively 24Hz, so with frame rate matching enabled we'd have resync blanking when switching between menus and show playback otherwise (to be clear, I also have the Radiance Pro matching output frame rate to input). So instead we do have blanking when playing/stopping 60Hz/50Hz shows, but we watch them less often.



gadgetfreaky said:


> and do you have chroma 4:2:2 or 4:2:0


I have the Apple TV outputting 4:2:2 to the Radiance Pro for HDR, and 4:4:4 for SDR.


----------



## audioguy

MAttHEATLifer said:


> You are correct about higher bit rates
> 
> Avengers Endgame is great example, 4K HDR movie is 103.3 GB just for the movie where as 4K disc version was only a 66GB disc...



That is a 50% difference. I wonder how much of the extra is for specific K functions, like, for example, "scenes"? And while I really thought the image from my K system was stellar, I did not think it looked any better than my Oppo produced. But then again, maybe my eyes are not what they once were!!!


----------



## Eventidal

Eventidal said:


> No, they are not disabled. But now they only seem to work in specific scenes.
> 
> But with my dtm settings I could not see ANY changes while altering the d-pad level. Anybody else with that issue?


The new DTM release seems to be a step backwards, there are no visible changes for d-pad and only randomly in shape and transition.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ian_Currie said:


> That is very interesting.


Ian if you have a copy of Star Wars - Last Jedi in 4K HDR ATMOS (Low volume on the ATMOS I had to jack up the volume 4DB) - take it out and dust it off and watch it on the Lumagen DTM - it is a whole new movie - just a beautiful picture.
And that is on my Sony VW5000 with a messed up blu primary which did not allow Adam to do a calibration (or 3D LUT) when he installed the Lumagen in my video chain. The projector is making a trip to Sony - hope to get it back soon brand spanking new with the upcoming Sony Firmware update.
And then calibration.... fun fun...
I will be checking out until then - leaving for Cabo - enjoy your DTM experience.


----------



## thrang

Eventidal said:


> Eventidal said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, they are not disabled. But now they only seem to work in specific scenes.
> 
> But with my dtm settings I could not see ANY changes while altering the d-pad level. Anybody else with that issue?
> 
> 
> 
> The new DTM release seems to be a step backwards, there are no visible changes for d-pad and only randomly in shape and transition.
Click to expand...

I find this release one of the most significant steps forward for both dtm and overall image quality for as long as I can remember


----------



## Eventidal

thrang said:


> I find this release one of the most significant steps forward for both dtm and overall image quality for as long as I can remember


Could you please explain to me what exactly has improved with this release and give me some scenes to check? And what do you mean by overall image quality? This release seems to be not very responsive in terms of adjustments.


----------



## thrang

Eventidal said:


> thrang said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find this release one of the most significant steps forward for both dtm and overall image quality for as long as I can remember
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please explain to me what exactly has improved with this release and give me some scenes to check? And what do you mean by overall image quality? This release seems to be not very responsive in terms of adjustments.
Click to expand...

Whether or not there are adjustment control issues, I am seeing the underlying approach to DTM allows a high Max nit setting for me, which is resulting in better blacks and shadow details, better saturation, yet still having the output for high contrast and highlights. 

I believe as a result of not pushing the max nits lower (as the added padding required in earlier versions), the image is more film-like and cleaner. Certainly, there is a reduction in a lot of contouring/banding that I saw in earlier iterations (not often, but enough to catch your eye) that was automatically blamed on the Sony 5000

My non-technical take is the extra padding in earlier iterations tended to darken the image. This sort of forced me to run max nits lower to gain brightness that was muted by that extra padding. Perhaps this changed the calculations to apply mapping earlier/more aggressively, resulting in some artifacts and compressed tonal range.

With the extra padding removed, the baseline brightness is higher, allowing me to increase max nits and the resultant mapping appears much more naturally applied and with a great reduction of artifacts.

This is for me, I can’t speak to other setups. And my guess as to why I see what I see may be wrong - nonetheless the underlying engine seems to have changed appreciably.


----------



## Eventidal

I have to correct myself-
Patrick sent me some scenes to check and after changing the ratio in my setup to 15 (300 src. max in the dtm menu) and Display Max Light to 500 nits in the CMS, the changes in Dpad became alive. Very visible. Nice work!


----------



## gadgetfreaky

pjones said:


> Yes 24Hz (for the menus) because most TV shows and movies we watch on the Apple TV are natively 24Hz, so with frame rate matching enabled we'd have resync blanking when switching between menus and show playback otherwise (to be clear, I also have the Radiance Pro matching output frame rate to input). So instead we do have blanking when playing/stopping 60Hz/50Hz shows, but we watch them less often.
> 
> 
> 
> I have the Apple TV outputting 4:2:2 to the Radiance Pro for HDR, and 4:4:4 for SDR.


HDR 24HZ or SDR24HZ with HDR enabled? 
what setting is "radiance pro matching output frame rate to input"? 

And how do you have appleTV outputting 4:2:2 for HDR and 4:4:4 for SDR, is that a setting? I don't see it.


----------



## streits

Eventidal said:


> I have to correct myself-
> 
> Patrick sent me some scenes to check and after changing the ratio in my setup to 15 (300 src. max in the dtm menu) and Display Max Light to 500 nits in the CMS, the changes in Dpad became alive. Very visible. Nice work!




Please can you share these scenes.
Thanks


----------



## pjones

gadgetfreaky said:


> HDR 24HZ or SDR24HZ with HDR enabled?


In my ATV4K's settings, for video "Format" I have "4K HDR 24Hz" (right now, at least), and under "Match Content" I have both "Match Dynamic Range" and "Match Rate" set to *On*, so it will still output SDR709 for an SDR show/movie, etc.

Again, the HDR/24Hz for the default video format is just to minimize blanking on resync for the shows that we've been watching most often recently—I used to have it HDR/60Hz but on many Netflix shows we'd miss the first few seconds of video during the resync to 24Hz to match the show.



gadgetfreaky said:


> what setting is "radiance pro matching output frame rate to input"?


By that I just mean that in my Radiance Pro's "Output Setup" I have it configured so that if the input is any 24Hz format, the output is 4k24; if the inputs is 30Hz, the output is 4k30; if the input is 50Hz, the output is 4k50; and otherwise the output is 4k60—so that for all typical input frame rates, the output frame rate to my projector will match (though scaled to 4096x2160).



gadgetfreaky said:


> And how do you have appleTV outputting 4:2:2 for HDR and 4:4:4 for SDR, is that a setting? I don't see it.


The ATV4K setup interface is confusing in this regard. You can only adjust the "Chroma" setting for the current video "format", so you have to switch among video formats to control the chroma subsampling ratio for that format. (Note that for the 4K 24Hz formats there is only once choice, 4:2:2 for HDR or 4:4:4 SDR; for the 4K 60Hz formats, 4:2:0 is also an option.) I'm not claiming that the ATV4K's chroma subsampling ratio setting makes a noticeable difference—the content is presumably encoded with 4:2:0 anyway—just reporting what I'm using.

In other news, my ATV4K was just updated to tvOS 13.0, and tonight I'm no longer seeing the issue that I reported the other day about blown out highlights in the screen saver clips with DTM. Weird—seems that something in the way the old tvOS version was sending the screen saver clips was confusing the DTM (they looked much better with DTM disabled), but the new tvOS version isn't doing that.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

pjones said:


> In my ATV4K's settings, for video "Format" I have "4K HDR 24Hz" (right now, at least), and under "Match Content" I have both "Match Dynamic Range" and "Match Rate" set to *On*, so it will still output SDR709 for an SDR show/movie, etc.
> 
> Again, the HDR/24Hz for the default video format is just to minimize blanking on resync for the shows that we've been watching most often recently—I used to have it HDR/60Hz but on many Netflix shows we'd miss the first few seconds of video during the resync to 24Hz to match the show.
> 
> 
> 
> By that I just mean that in my Radiance Pro's "Output Setup" I have it configured so that if the input is any 24Hz format, the output is 4k24; if the inputs is 30Hz, the output is 4k30; if the input is 50Hz, the output is 4k50; and otherwise the output is 4k60—so that for all typical input frame rates, the output frame rate to my projector will match (though scaled to 4096x2160).
> 
> 
> 
> The ATV4K setup interface is confusing in this regard. You can only adjust the "Chroma" setting for the current video "format", so you have to switch among video formats to control the chroma subsampling ratio for that format. (Note that for the 4K 24Hz formats there is only once choice, 4:2:2 for HDR or 4:4:4 SDR; for the 4K 60Hz formats, 4:2:0 is also an option.) I'm not claiming that the ATV4K's chroma subsampling ratio setting makes a noticeable difference—the content is presumably encoded with 4:2:0 anyway—just reporting what I'm using.
> 
> In other news, my ATV4K was just updated to tvOS 13.0, and tonight I'm no longer seeing the issue that I reported the other day about blown out highlights in the screen saver clips with DTM. Weird—seems that something in the way the old tvOS version was sending the screen saver clips was confusing the DTM (they looked much better with DTM disabled), but the new tvOS version isn't doing that.


Why scale it to 4096x2160? I saw the option of "menu 0877. Projector is only capable of 3840x2160? When I enable 24Hz with "menu 0872" I get everything vibating/micro shaking picture. when I do frame rate "menu 0874" which enables just 50 or 60Hz, no more shaking, pic is fine. Input is 23.98Hz but out is 59.94Hz, so i'm not getting the framerate I should? Does this mean the lumagen is taking the 24Hz and upconverting it to 60hz?


----------



## Eventidal

streits said:


> Please can you share these scenes.
> Thanks


The Revenant at 35.58 and 36.58.


----------



## Yoxxy

The new firmware gives the best picture I have ever seen in my room. Makes the NX7 really shine. I'm extremely happy with the image.

I have one source that is 24p with 1080p (4:2:0) that the lumagen seems to forget it is programmed to convert to 4k24p @ 4:2:2 and instead converts to 4k60p @ 4:2:2. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to letting the lumagen convert from 24p to 60p as opposed to my projector doing it? I can manually go in and select the correct refresh rate but it's cumbersome.


----------



## thrang

Eventidal said:


> I have to correct myself-
> Patrick sent me some scenes to check and after changing the ratio in my setup to 15 (300 src. max in the dtm menu) and Display Max Light to 500 nits in the CMS, the changes in Dpad became alive. Very visible. Nice work!


This seems to be a different ratio of max nits to effective nits than what Kris has been recommending, though perhaps it is more tuned for your setup...


----------



## Eventidal

thrang said:


> This seems to be a different ratio of max nits to effective nits than what Kris has been recommending, though perhaps it is more tuned for your setup...


I tested my settings with MEG and The Revenant , looks very good. The recommended settings made no difference...


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I followed the settings as recommended by JimP and the information from GordonF and it's looking good to me. My wife wanted to watch A Star is born, which I had on rental 4K disc. I don't know if this is a particularly challenging disc for DTM, but it looked nice and bright, with good punchy highlights and plenty of contrast (can't say too much about the film itself, but it was better than I expected to be fair).

Also tested some of Altered Carbon from Netflix: This series seems to have been mostly filmed in the dark and when I first watched the series (pre DTM and some of the earlier updates) it was hard to see much at all on this program. The latest DTM has really improved this, making it brighter and still retaining good blacks/contrast. 

I don't have any standout time stamps as I tend to just get into a film once it starts, so it's more anecdotal, but I do feel that I'm finally getting the benefit of feeding my projector with 4K sources via the Lumagen.


----------



## pjones

gadgetfreaky said:


> Why scale it to 4096x2160? I saw the option of "menu 0877. Projector is only capable of 3840x2160?


I'm scaling to 4096x2160 because that's the native panel resolution of my projector (JVC RS1000) so I can fill its panel width, if/when desired, with all scaling done by the Lumagen.



gadgetfreaky said:


> When I enable 24Hz with "menu 0872" I get everything vibating/micro shaking picture.


Hmm, is your display known to support 24Hz video input?



gadgetfreaky said:


> when I do frame rate "menu 0874" which enables just 50 or 60Hz, no more shaking, pic is fine. Input is 23.98Hz but out is 59.94Hz, so i'm not getting the framerate I should? Does this mean the lumagen is taking the 24Hz and upconverting it to 60hz?


Yes in that configuration the Lumagen is doing frame rate conversion, with 3:2 repetition to go from 24->60Hz. Disadvantage is that you'll see more judder during some motion with 24Hz source material. (Advantage can be fewer display resyncs as you switch between 24Hz and 60Hz material.)


----------



## audioguy

I started watching Doctor Strange last evening. Talk about a dark movie !! I think my Lumagen was breathing pretty hard !!


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> I started watching Doctor Strange last evening. Talk about a dark movie !! I think my Lumagen was breathing pretty hard !!


Love it LOL


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> This seems to be a different ratio of max nits to effective nits than what Kris has been recommending, though perhaps it is more tuned for your setup...


Jim typically recommends the same settings as me more often now. Pat is a bit more reserved, so his settings tend to look a bit too padded for my taste. I don't think you'd like Pat's settings.


----------



## Kris Deering

Here is some info on the new DPAD function. I generally use a level of 3, but 4 is quite good as well and will probably have less of a chance of artifacts:

DPad=1 generally slightly below peak so will see more clipping, but will be
brighter (IN MY TESTING THERE ARE TOO MANY CLIPPING ARTIFACTS WITH THIS OR A LEVEL OF 2)

DPad=3 generally at scene peak or slightly higher (OCCASIONAL ARTIFACTS IN VERY DIFFICULT MATERIAL)

DPad=4 generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount (ARTIFACTS ARE RARE)
of pad depending on scene

DPad=6 closest to current Dlev of 8 (IF YOU LIKED WHAT YOU HAD BEFORE THIS UPDATE, USE THIS)

DPad=8 more pad then current with Dlev of 8


----------



## Mike Garrett

I set my Dpad to 3 and so far the image has looked great with every movie I have watched. Even my wife commented on how good Alladin looked.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I started watching Doctor Strange last evening. Talk about a dark movie !! I think my Lumagen was breathing pretty hard !!


I think the largest improvements using the DTM are in the darkest scenes - although I'm not sure how much of that is the new firmware and how much is the result of Kris's calibration. Plenty of dark scenes during my John Wick 2 and 3 double feature, and both movies looked awesome ! I've run out of things to nit pick on the video side - I'm back to nit picking stuff on the audio side in my theater now.


----------



## thrang

Craig Peer said:


> I think the largest improvements using the DTM are in the darkest scenes - although I'm not sure how much of that is the new firmware and how much is the result of Kris's calibration. Plenty of dark scenes during my John Wick 2 and 3 double feature, and both movies looked awesome ! I've run out of things to nit pick on the video side - I'm back to nit picking stuff on the audio side in my theater now.


Yes, except the opening scene in Dr Strange UHD - that looks a bit murky which I suspect is some elevated black in the content, not anything DTM did....


----------



## Craig Peer

thrang said:


> Yes, except the opening scene in Dr Strange UHD - that looks a bit murky which I suspect is some elevated black in the content, not anything DTM did....


I'll have to check that out when my copy arrives. Another dark movie I've been meaning to re-watch ( and a great movie at that ) is Arrival. DTM should make for a better picture. Time to spin that disc again.


----------



## ShaharT

Beginner question. Tיhanks in advance for an answer and an explanation.

My PJ is a Sony 995 4K.
When I have a source material at [email protected], should I set Lumagen to upscale to:
a) 4096x2160P @ 50Hz
b) 3840x2160P @ 23.98Hz
c) 4096x2160 @ 23.98Hz?

My Projector & Lumagen were professionally calibrated, and left on one of the above options for [email protected] input material  
The source is a Dune 4K Pro.

I'm very curious to learn more.
Thanks!


----------



## SJHT

Most movies look great with this update, but anyone try Solo (opening scenes)? It seems to look darker than before. I know the movie was likely mastered that way, but seems to be worse than previous firmwares. SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Most movies look great with this update, but anyone try Solo (opening scenes)? It seems to look darker than before. I know the movie was likely mastered that way, but seems to be worse than previous firmwares. SJ


I'll give it a spin tonight and test it. That is one dark mofo in the beginning.  But still looks better at home than what folks saw in the theater from what I hear.


----------



## Eventidal

ShaharT said:


> Beginner question. Tיhanks in advance for an answer and an explanation.
> 
> My PJ is a Sony 995 4K.
> When I have a source material at [email protected], should I set Lumagen to upscale to:
> a) 4096x2160P @ 50Hz
> b) 3840x2160P @ 23.98Hz
> c) 4096x2160 @ 23.98Hz?
> 
> My Projector & Lumagen were professionally calibrated, and left on one of the above options for [email protected] input material
> The source is a Dune 4K Pro.
> 
> I'm very curious to learn more.
> Thanks!


Your best choice is either b) or c). I think Auto 2 will set it automatically to c).
a) will cause stutter. 
You could also set the Lumagen to 1080p24 and simply use the RC of the Sony. 
Just check what looks best for you.


----------



## darksets

I updated to the latest software and set DPad to 4 to try it out. I was watching Terminator 2 and the bike chase scene looked washed out. I set DPad to 6 and everything looked right again. Just my two cents.


----------



## dlinsley

SJHT said:


> Most movies look great with this update, but anyone try Solo (opening scenes)? It seems to look darker than before. I know the movie was likely mastered that way, but seems to be worse than previous firmwares. SJ


I haven't watched it recently, so hard to say, but I just watched the first ten minutes and it didn't seem much different than what I recall seeing at home or at the AMC Dolby. My settings are dpad 3, ratio 28, display effective light 350 (my Discus recorded 57 nits off the screen). The speeder chase outside is certainly brighter than the earlier inside scenes, but they look "right" to me. Black Panther looked glorious though. I need more time to just watch


----------



## Alyaji

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to check whether anyone has had issues with the three firmware upgrades released in September (09xx19). I’ve had @ 4242 connected to a Sony 1100ES for the past three years and never any issue with it. I’ve tried upgrading to each of the three firmwares, using standard procedure and boot load with no success. The upgrade itself completes properly but after reboot, the radiance pro and the projector don’t manage the handshake. I’m getting a no signal icon on a black screen. Downgrading to 082219 sorts the issue.
I’ve raised a ticket with support and I’m waiting to hear from Jim and Patrick but I wanted to have the views of the members her as well.

Regards,


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Most movies look great with this update, but anyone try Solo (opening scenes)? It seems to look darker than before. I know the movie was likely mastered that way, but seems to be worse than previous firmwares. SJ




Well it looked a little darker than before I had Kris calibrate my RS4500 and the latest firmware, but the dark scenes looked pretty good now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Kris did mine aa well. Maybe a bad example but maybe Kris would explain what is happening, This is a movie that if you watch the normal non 4K Blu-ray it is better. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol


----------



## aeneas01

hoping someone might be able to help me out with the best settings for this chain:

apple tv 4k (used to mostly stream my ripped library, which includes many 4k hdr titles) > radiance pro > 40' bjc 3 active hdmi cable > epson 6050ub.

currently my screen momentarily flashes bight green when i start and stop 4k hdr movie files using the atv4k (infuse), everything else seems to be fine.

currently:

apple tv 4k = hdr enabled, matched content both on, under format i've tried 4k sdr 60hz, 4k hdr 60hz and 4k hdr (which i stopped using because i believed it was causing handshake issues).

radiance pro (18ghz inputs, 9ghz outputs) = all default settings, hdr tone mapping off, have also tried cms1 colorspace = sdr709 with sdr709 and 709 auto convert, hdr tone mapping on, max light 800, which i used with my previous benq lk953st 4k projector.

epson 6050un = currently default settings.

thanks!


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Kris did mine aa well. Maybe a bad example but maybe Kris would explain what is happening, This is a movie that if you watch the normal non 4K Blu-ray it is better. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol


It's certainly watchable. It's not as bright as when I accidentally had Chad B's static HDR curve and DTM on at the same time.  But you shouldn't do that.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> I'll have to check that out when my copy arrives. Another dark movie I've been meaning to re-watch ( and a great movie at that ) is Arrival. DTM should make for a better picture. Time to spin that disc again.


Eager to hear your comment on Arrival _ I tried it a bit and found the picture to be dark and dreary - the movie is authored that way I am told as the intent of the Director was to paint a dreary picture.
If you have the new Robin Hood - give it a spin - mediocre movie but awesome audio and video - shines on the DTM.


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> Eager to hear your comment on Arrival _ I tried it a bit and found the picture to be dark and dreary - the movie is authored that way I am told as the intent of the Director was to paint a dreary picture.
> If you have the new Robin Hood - give it a spin - mediocre movie but awesome audio and video - shines on the DTM.


I didn't have a chance to watch Arrival last night, but it is supposed to be dark - to match the dread people feel wondering why aliens are here and what they want. I've always found it quite watchable on my RS4500, so I'm eager to see what it looks like with the latest firmware. I do not have Robin Hood, but I finally got around to watching the last film in the Maze Runner trilogy. I thought The Death Cure wasn't bad - and the picture and sound on 4K UHD were amazing at times.


----------



## *Harry*

Eventidal said:


> You could also set the Lumagen to 1080p24 and simply use the RC of the Sony.


... for 1080p sources I would recommend that too, as here you can use Lumagens Darbee implementation in addition, if wanted.


----------



## Eventidal

*Harry* said:


> ... for 1080p sources I would recommend that too, as here you can use Lumagens Darbee implementation in addition, if wanted.


You can use the Darbee also with 4k output formats like 3840*2160, all that matters for the Darbee algorithm is the source input format (up to Full HD) . 

But using HD instead of UHD output by the Radiance has mostly different results in combination with the RC. You will need to check artifacts, sharpness (ringing) and noise etc.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Most movies look great with this update, but anyone try Solo (opening scenes)? It seems to look darker than before. I know the movie was likely mastered that way, but seems to be worse than previous firmwares. SJ





Ash Sharma said:


> Eager to hear your comment on Arrival _ I tried it a bit and found the picture to be dark and dreary - the movie is authored that way I am told as the intent of the Director was to paint a dreary picture.
> If you have the new Robin Hood - give it a spin - mediocre movie but awesome audio and video - shines on the DTM.


Bradford Young is the DP for both of these movies and his signature style is dark (natural light only, very dark). The point of DTM isn't to make movies that are SUPPOSED to be dark brighter. If they authored the movie to look dark, or just scenes to look dark, than DTM making them look bright is actually the opposite of what we're trying to achieve (movies look the way they are intended). Jim isn't manipulating gamma to boost the low end, he is preserving your dynamic range so you don't make them look artificially dark due to the tone map. Arrival and Solo look the way they are supposed to look.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> Bradford Young is the DP for both of these movies and his signature style is dark (natural light only, very dark). The point of DTM isn't to make movies that are SUPPOSED to be dark brighter. If they authored the movie to look dark, or just scenes to look dark, than DTM making them look bright is actually the opposite of what we're trying to achieve (movies look the way they are intended). Jim isn't manipulating gamma to boost the low end, he is preserving your dynamic range so you don't make them look artificially dark due to the tone map. Arrival and Solo look the way they are supposed to look.


I agree Kris - but one might argue that the approach is so exacting in its limited tonal range that it makes for difficult viewing at times, whether at home are in the theaters. I've seen more than a few titles at a local Dolby Cinema where dark scenes were not terribly discernible, or had a couple of bad bottoming out contours of "digital black holes". Was really quite bad.


----------



## Kris Deering

​


thrang said:


> I agree Kris - but one might argue that the approach is so exacting in its limited tonal range that it makes for difficult viewing at times, whether at home are in the theaters. I've seen more than a few titles at a local Dolby Cinema where dark scenes were not terribly discernible, or had a couple of bad bottoming out contours of "digital black holes". Was really quite bad.


I'm not saying that they are not difficult to watch. I heard the same complaints during their theatrical run too. But it ins't a problem with DTM, it is the intention of the master. You can futz with settings and try and make it more watchable, I would just make sure you return the settings to normal afterwards. These are not movies that main settings should be built around.

On that note though, I don't have any difficulty with either of these two titles. Both are easy to watch in my setup (I watched Arrival not long ago and looked at Solo when I was testing the latest build). I do find it interesting that everyone that is complaining about them specifically has a Sony projector with much lower contrast than my JVC. Coincidence???


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> ​
> I'm not saying that they are not difficult to watch. I heard the same complaints during their theatrical run too. But it ins't a problem with DTM, it is the intention of the master. You can futz with settings and try and make it more watchable, I would just make sure you return the settings to normal afterwards. These are not movies that main settings should be built around.
> 
> On that note though, I don't have any difficulty with either of these two titles. Both are easy to watch in my setup (I watched Arrival not long ago and looked at Solo when I was testing the latest build). I do find it interesting that everyone that is complaining about them specifically has a Sony projector with much lower contrast than my JVC. Coincidence???


Correct, never was blaming "your" DTM 

And I am personally ok with Arrival on my setup - the latest DTM and settings does help with detail in darker scenes. So I'm as happy as dark movie can leave me...


----------



## aeneas01

aeneas01 said:


> hoping someone might be able to help me out with the best settings for this chain:
> 
> apple tv 4k (used to mostly stream my ripped library, which includes many 4k hdr titles) > radiance pro > 40' bjc 3 active hdmi cable > epson 6050ub.
> 
> currently my screen momentarily flashes bight green when i start and stop 4k hdr movie files using the atv4k (infuse), everything else seems to be fine.
> 
> currently:
> 
> apple tv 4k = hdr enabled, matched content both on, under format i've tried 4k sdr 60hz, 4k hdr 60hz and 4k hdr (which i stopped using because i believed it was causing handshake issues).
> 
> radiance pro (18ghz inputs, 9ghz outputs) = all default settings, hdr tone mapping off, have also tried cms1 colorspace = sdr709 with sdr709 and 709 auto convert, hdr tone mapping on, max light 800, which i used with my previous benq lk953st 4k projector.
> 
> epson 6050ub = currently default settings.
> 
> thanks!



any help would be appreciated!


----------



## giomania

SJHT said:


> Kris did mine aa well. Maybe a bad example but maybe Kris would explain what is happening, This is a movie that if you watch the normal non 4K Blu-ray it is better. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol




You are not crazy. Terminator 2 UHD reviews point out this fact.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dlinsley

aeneas01 said:


> any help would be appreciated!


Does the ATV->Epson have the same behavior with the Radiance bypassed?

Do you get the correct image on screen and then it goes green before restoring the image? Or just green then image?


----------



## aeneas01

dlinsley said:


> Does the ATV->Epson have the same behavior with the Radiance bypassed?
> 
> Do you get the correct image on screen and then it goes green before restoring the image? Or just green then image?


 thanks very much for your response.

actually i haven't even tried bypassing the lumagen, probably because it needs to be in the chain, i suppose trying it would at least tell me something about the hdmit cable(s) - one thing i did learn since my post is that a green screen almost always points to handshake issues, which i didn't know.

all of that said, i''m confident that i will get it sorted out along with a few other nuisances, for example from the lumagen i have one hdmi out to the pj (video only) and another hdmi out to my avr (audio only), my avr is a yamaha cx-a5100 with 4k pass-through set, but whenever i do anything with my avr when a movie is playing, such as turn another zone, the movie and audio turn off and on as (i'm assuming) more handshakes within the avr are resolved.

anyway, what i'm most interested in at the moment is getting some advice on the best settings for video in my setup, i.e. the best settings for the atv4k, lumagen and pj to watch my ripped library which includes a lot of 4k hdr titles, fwiw i updated both the lumagen and atv4k to the latest firmware last night.

thanks again!


----------



## aeneas01

bobof said:


> My ATV4K seems to work generally fine via an 18G input on my Pro 4242. I usually have the UI running SDR4K50, but the other resolutions work fine, and it autoswitches resolution / dynamic range OK. By generally fine I mean so long as I stay away from Netflix HDR content with its wonky metadata!  . The only thing I notice is I often see a very brief green flash in the bottom area of the screen a few seconds after starting using the ATV. After that it is rock solid. Via a BJC certified premium cable. I'm pretty sure this flash is at least somehow ATV related as I don't think I see it on other inputs.


did you ever resolve this? i'm having the issue excpet my entire screen flashes green... like you i own a 4242 with 18g inputs, apple tv 4k, bjc active cable....


----------



## bobof

aeneas01 said:


> did you ever resolve this? i'm having the issue excpet my entire screen flashes green... like you i own a 4242 with 18g inputs, apple tv 4k, bjc active cable....


I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:

1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.

Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop. 

This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.


----------



## baseball0618

bobof said:


> I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:
> 
> 1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
> *2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content*
> 3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.
> 
> Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.
> 
> This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.


This is the best change that I have made to my AP TV4K settings to date. It saves a lot of refresh time especially for me b/c I have the RS4500 and it's sync times are quite slow.


----------



## LJG

My only complaint with the DTM now is how it works with HLG, the picture is totally washed out. Now that we are getting Thursday night Fox games in HDR, and some Saturday football this is somewhat important to me. Hopefully Pat can take a look at this.


----------



## audioguy

LJG said:


> My only complaint with the DTM now is how it works with HLG, the picture is totally washed out. Now that we are getting Thursday night Fox games in HDR, and some Saturday football this is somewhat important to me. Hopefully Pat can take a look at this.



I give up. HLG = ?


----------



## LJG

audioguy said:


> I give up. HLG = ?


Hybrid Log Gamma, the broadcast version of HDR.


----------



## audioguy

LJG said:


> Hybrid Log Gamma, the broadcast version of HDR.



Thanks. It is amazing what one can learn by hanging out on AVS. After doing a quick bit of research, it appears that the college games are only available in HDR *if *you have DirecTV - which I don't (just switched to YouTube TV). Oh well. 



Thanks again.


----------



## mskreis

LJG said:


> My only complaint with the DTM now is how it works with HLG, the picture is totally washed out. Now that we are getting Thursday night Fox games in HDR, and some Saturday football this is somewhat important to me. Hopefully Pat can take a look at this.




Yes, I thought so as well. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

bobof said:


> I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:
> 
> 1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
> 2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
> 3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.
> 
> Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.
> 
> This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.


I should have added, there are 3 ways to work around this with Apple TV currently (all a bit annoying):
* route HDMI via the AVR first and then through the Lumagen - gains OSD from AVR but also adds risk of AVR image manipulation
* use a splitter at HDMI output of Apple TV to route to both AVR and Lumagen separately
* Disable HDR in the Apple TV.


----------



## Craig Peer

Watched " Blade Runner 2049 " last night with a friend that had never seen it. Hadn't watched it since Mr. Deering did his magic and the latest DTM firmware came out. All I can say is the picture was astounding!


----------



## dgkula

TomHuffman said:


> The Lumagen automatically stores calibrations in CMS0 when it detects a SDR input and CMS01 when it detects a HDR input. If you only used SDR709 and HDR2020 calibrations, this would be all you would have to concern yourself with. SDR2020 calibrations introduce a complication. The Lumagen detects a HDR input and so will store the calibration in CMS01, which would overwrite any HDR2020 calibration you would have there. For this reason, we recommend that you copy any HDR2020 calibration to another CMS, so that it can be retrieved at any time. Also, you should copy the SDR2020 calibration to another CMS as well for the same reason.
> 
> For playback use CMS0 for SDR709 and CMS01 for both HDR2020 and SDR2020. Just copy the stored SDR2020 or HDR2020 to CMS01 prior to playback.
> 
> I hope that this clarifies the issue.
> 
> In the next release we will offer a wizard that automates much of the a Lumagen auto-cal process. We have had a lot of support issues with this. The problem appears to be either corrupted installations not related to auto-cal or user error in following the documented steps. I am sympathetic to this because there are a lot of steps required, so it is easy to miss one, which is why we are automating much of this to simplify the process.


Hi Tom, apologies for the n00b question - is there a timeline and description of this next release that you note above?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:
> 
> 1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
> 2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
> 3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.
> 
> Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.
> 
> This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.


Would an HDFury help with the blanking of the screen when I start and stop shows on Hulu, netflix? the 5-10 seconds everytime i stop a show and try to find something to watch is just so annoying


----------



## ShaharT

Another newbie question:

If I get 444-SDR709 input signal, why is the output signal 422-SDR709, and not 444-SDR709?
Am I not 'losing' something, if the content is already encoded as 444?

The source is a 4K Netflix @ Apple TV, and the output device is a Sony 4K 995 PJ.
Thanks!


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Would an HDFury help with the blanking of the screen when I start and stop shows on Hulu, netflix? the 5-10 seconds everytime i stop a show and try to find something to watch is just so annoying


No, it would probably make them worse. 

Investigate why you have the blanking; there are nearly always compromised you can put in place to the video playback that will reduce blanking times. If you press Enter on the Lumagen during the Hulu shows and then also during the AppleTV menus it will show what you have coming in and what you can going out.

For example, you could disable match rate and match dynamic range on the AppleTV, to make it always output as HDR. Or you can leave them enabled, but make the Lumagen output everything in a fixed format such as 4K60. Of course these tweaks usually compromise some other aspect of playback, so you either need to get to grips with the compromises and whether they are acceptable to you, or speak to a calibrator experienced in configuring Lumagen devices to best meet your needs.

If you share some more details of how you have everything setup and what the Lumagen says it is doing then I'm sure folk in here can help you with understanding what you have set up, why it behaves like it does, and what changes you could think about implementing.


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Another newbie question:
> 
> If I get 444-SDR709 input signal, why is the output signal 422-SDR709, and not 444-SDR709?
> Am I not 'losing' something, if the content is already encoded as 444?
> 
> The source is a 4K Netflix @ Apple TV, and the output device is a Sony 4K 995 PJ.
> Thanks!


Bluntly, because that is how you have the Lumagen configured.  You can choose most formats for output under Output -> Styles -> HDMI Output format
From the manual (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_071819.pdf). 422 is the default output.



> HDMI Output Type
> You can specify the digital output range as “RGB-PC level” (e.g. for 8-bit 0 to 255) or “RGB-Video level” (e.g. for 8-
> bit 16 to 235). “YCbCr 422” is the recommended output format. For the HDMI RGB output, setting the level as
> video allows blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white video levels to be output from the Radiance. The command
> is:
> MENU → Output → Styles → [Style] → HDMI Format → Type → (Auto, RGB/Level=Vid,
> RGB/Level=PC, RGB/36bpp Dual Out/Level=Vid, YCbCr444, YCbCr422)
> Note that for some output rates (e.g. 4k60 using 9 GHz output cards) the mode may not be programmable. For
> reference the 4k60 output mode using 9 GHz I/O cards is always 4:2:0, 8-bit. Note that the RGB/36bpp is
> supported only for 9 GHz output cards.


----------



## ShaharT

bobof said:


> Bluntly, because that is how you have the Lumagen configured.  You can choose most formats for output under Output -> Styles -> HDMI Output format
> From the manual (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_071819.pdf). 422 is the default output.


Thanks much!
I had the Lumagen calibrated by a professional. Hence My question 
Am I right in understanding that it makes sense to change the output to 444 when the input is 444?
Is it like resolution, that I can set it to 444 output based on an input of 444, and 422 output based on 422 input?
I much appreciate how helpful this forum is!


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Thanks much!
> I had the Lumagen calibrated by a professional. Hence My question
> Am I right in understanding that it makes sense to change the output to 444 when the input is 444?
> Is it like resolution, that I can set it to 444 output based on an input of 444, and 422 output based on 422 input?
> I much appreciate how helpful this forum is!


I don't think you can match input format to output format automagically (I've not seen option to). The closest thing you could do is set up different styles with the different output settings, and use some of the logic in the Output screen to choose different styles for different scenarios. So I believe you could use different styles based on:
Resolution
Selected input
Selected Memory
REC709 vs REC2020 vs 3D
And any combination of the above.
There is also an Auto option for output format, I think this tries to use the "best" format up to the available bandwidth for the given output resolution, but I'm not completely sure.

I guess if you have a player which is noted for having particularly good chroma upsampling (like a Panasonic UHD player) there might be some benefit to doing 444 in and 444 out. Note that the video doesn't stay 444 YCrCb all the way through the Lumagen - there are conversions along the way to / from RGB through to the output I recall.


----------



## DMILANI

Someone just snagged an almost new 4240 on eBay for about half the price of new. I’d buy one in a heartbeat at that price. 

Lumagen should think about a Radiance Pro “Light” with just DTM features without the scaling or calibration capabilities and just one HDMI in and out. 

Maybe someday?


----------



## aeneas01

@*bobof* , found all of your responses extremely helpful and informative, thanks very much!

i'm also battling some handshake issues where the screen flashes green and then black, it happens when i try to play a 4k hdr movie file, and happens again when i stop play, doesn't matter what i set the apple tv 4k to (4k hdr 60, 4k sdr 60, or any other variation the atv4k offers), always happens... also, on top of this, when i play a 4k hdr movie file there's a delay in displaying the image, the image will finally display about 5 secs in so i won't see the full studio introduction.

looking at the link to the lumagen manual you posted, i didn't realize that my 9ghz output cards (18 input cards) were limited 4:2:0, 8-bit... consequently, is there any reason to set the atv4k output to anything higher than that, 4:4:4 for example? in fact by setting the 4tv4k to a different chroma subsampling than the lumagen can't output, would this contribute to handshake issues (green flash)?

and finally, what hdr tone mapping settings do you recommend for cms1? i have an espon 6050ub.
btw, i updated the lumagen's firmware a couple of nights ago, how do i access dtm setting using the remote? when i was paying around with the atv4k's hdr output settings, i noticed that it caused the dtm menu to pop up at one point, which i dismissed, haven't seen that menu again.

thanks!


----------



## loggeo

DMILANI said:


> Someone just snagged an almost new 4240 on eBay for about half the price of new. I’d buy one in a heartbeat at that price.
> 
> Lumagen should think about a Radiance Pro “Light” with just DTM features without the scaling or calibration capabilities and just one HDMI in and out.
> 
> Maybe someday?



What would a lumagen lite device not contain? The fpga or the hdmi boards?
Hardware wise there could not be any difference.


----------



## DMILANI

I would say FPGA with not as many resources (same family but not as much logic or memory resources) and not as many HDMI ports, possibly fixed at 18G and not hardware upgradeable. Hardware wise it should be cheaper to produce. Less power hungry FPGA could lower power supply and thermal requirements, further reducing complexity and cost. 

Just wishful thinking, but maybe some day.


----------



## pjones

bobof said:


> ...there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.
> 
> This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.


Curious to know specific (non-Atmos) content for which you're getting these audio dropouts. FWIW—just to provide data, not discounting your experience—AppleTV 4K directly into 18G input on my Radiance Pro 4444, with 18G output to my JVC RS1000 and other output to my AVR, has been working well for me, never had audio dropouts or green flashes. Cables are all BJC passive, 2m or longer.

A while back I used to sometimes see totally wrong colors decoded from the ATV4K after a rate/range change (Radiance OSD still had correct colors, so problem was between ATV4k and it) and I'd have to switch around to correct it, but haven't had that problems for months, guessing either an Apple or Lumagen software update fixed it.

I do of course have several seconds of blank video during rate/range changes, and as mentioned a few pages back I'm currently using 4K HDR 24Hz for the ATV4K menus to minimize that effect for Netflix HDR material.


----------



## pjones

aeneas01 said:


> btw, i updated the lumagen's firmware a couple of nights ago, how do i access dtm setting using the remote? when i was paying around with the atv4k's hdr output settings, i noticed that it caused the dtm menu to pop up at one point, which i dismissed, haven't seen that menu again.


There are DTM settings that you can access quickly by pressing the left arrow on the Lumagen remote (by default, though this can be customized). Can't adjust "Display Max Light" from there, though—don't know of a way to get to that setting quickly.


----------



## bobof

pjones said:


> Curious to know specific (non-Atmos) content for which you're getting these audio dropouts. FWIW—just to provide data, not discounting your experience—AppleTV 4K directly into 18G input on my Radiance Pro 4444, with 18G output to my JVC RS1000 and other output to my AVR, has been working well for me, never had audio dropouts or green flashes. Cables are all BJC passive, 2m or longer.
> 
> A while back I used to sometimes see totally wrong colors decoded from the ATV4K after a rate/range change (Radiance OSD still had correct colors, so problem was between ATV4k and it) and I'd have to switch around to correct it, but haven't had that problems for months, guessing either an Apple or Lumagen software update fixed it.
> 
> I do of course have several seconds of blank video during rate/range changes, and as mentioned a few pages back I'm currently using 4K HDR 24Hz for the ATV4K menus to minimize that effect for Netflix HDR material.


As I said, without the Atmos MAT format it is very hard to spot on PCM content as it is super brief (it used to be worse, but Lumagen did manage to tweak it a bit) - but you'll still catch it occasionally. It is also audible if you have an Atmos title and disable Atmos, but again you need to listen really carefully when not Atmos. Many folk might not notice. 

It is a known issue by Lumagen support. Release 042019 was an attempt to fix it with a new vendor firmware for the HDMI input boards - "New 18 Ghz input chip microcode from chip vendor which fixes an Apple TV audio dropout issue." but was backed out at the next release as it caused other connectivity issues. (http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates)

I've just rewired my system so that the AppleTV is connected directly to the AVR, but all other devices are connected to the Lumagen inputs. I then route the video out of the AVR to one of the Lumagen inputs. This works well and results in the issue above not being a problem. As it doesn't seem like a fix is likely in the near term for this issue I'll either leave it like this or get a splitter so I can avoid having the AVR in circuit for the AppleTV video.


----------



## bobof

Has anyone watched "El camino" on AppleTV from Netflix via DTM? Noticed quite a few sections with overblown highlights - eg the diner scene Jesse's face around 1hr48. To recover them I have to dial up the display max light substantially - from 500 it needs to go up to around 8-900 for his cheeks to show some skin tones, or alternatively drop the ratio to 18-20. Be interested to see what others are seeing there with their settings.
I have approx 75 real nits. Usually DML usually 500, dPad set to 4, Low ratio to 27.


----------



## idratherbeflying

DMILANI said:


> Someone just snagged an almost new 4240 on eBay for about half the price of new. I’d buy one in a heartbeat at that price.
> 
> Lumagen should think about a Radiance Pro “Light” with just DTM features without the scaling or calibration capabilities and just one HDMI in and out.
> 
> Maybe someday?


I was watching that one too. Almooooooost bid, but I need more inputs and feared adding a switch in ahead of the Lumagen.

I'll be watching for more listings however as used is the only way I'll ever afford one of these. Had one with my old RS1 projector and loved it. Special thanks to JVC and their "HDR handling" on my RS500 for putting me in the market for another Lumagen :serious:


I don't know enough about the hardware/software to say much about a lite version but it would probably bug me knowing I was missing out on a feature with which a calibrator could have improved my image.


----------



## aeneas01

pjones said:


> Curious to know specific (non-Atmos) content for which you're getting these audio dropouts. FWIW—just to provide data, not discounting your experience—AppleTV 4K directly into 18G input on my Radiance Pro 4444, with 18G output to my JVC RS1000 and other output to my AVR, has been working well for me, never had audio dropouts or green flashes. Cables are all BJC passive, 2m or longer.
> 
> A while back I used to sometimes see totally wrong colors decoded from the ATV4K after a rate/range change (Radiance OSD still had correct colors, so problem was between ATV4k and it) and I'd have to switch around to correct it, but haven't had that problems for months, guessing either an Apple or Lumagen software update fixed it.
> 
> I do of course have several seconds of blank video during rate/range changes, and as mentioned a few pages back I'm currently using 4K HDR 24Hz for the ATV4K menus to minimize that effect for Netflix HDR material.


 i wonder if my handshake / green flash issues could have something to do with my 9ghz output cards? my setup seems very similar to yours: atv4k directly into 18g input on my radiance pro 4242, with 9g output to my epson 6050bu and the other output to my avr.

i noticed that you've set up your atv4k to output 4k hdr 24hz, i've tried this setting and pretty much all others, both hdr and sfr, i've also tried with matching on and off, including combos of on and off, still get the green flashes... i'm using a 40' bjc active cable from the lumagen to my pj, what are you using?



pjones said:


> There are DTM settings that you can access quickly by pressing the left arrow on the Lumagen remote (by default, though this can be customized). Can't adjust "Display Max Light" from there, though—don't know of a way to get to that setting quickly.


ahh, i must have inadvertently hit the left arrow when the dtm screen popped up, i was juggling 3 remotes at the time, thanks!


----------



## pjones

bobof said:


> As I said, without the Atmos MAT format it is very hard to spot on PCM content as it is super brief (it used to be worse, but Lumagen did manage to tweak it a bit) - but you'll still catch it occasionally. It is also audible if you have an Atmos title and disable Atmos, but again you need to listen really carefully when not Atmos. Many folk might not notice.
> 
> It is a known issue by Lumagen support. Release 042019 was an attempt to fix it with a new vendor firmware for the HDMI input boards - "New 18 Ghz input chip microcode from chip vendor which fixes an Apple TV audio dropout issue." but was backed out at the next release as it caused other connectivity issues. (http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates)


I do remember that firmware back-and-forth and had asked Lumagen about it at the time—they explained to me that the audio dropouts which they were trying to fix would happen every 30 seconds on DV+Atmos content from ATV4K. Maybe I'm just not noticing it with LPCM audio, though I'd think that I (or someone at my house) would have by now.


----------



## pjones

aeneas01 said:


> i wonder if my handshake / green flash issues could have something to do with my 9ghz output cards? my setup seems very similar to yours: atv4k directly into 18g input on my radiance pro 4242, with 9g output to my epson 6050bu and the other output to my avr.
> 
> i noticed that you've set up your atv4k to output 4k hdr 24hz, i've tried this setting and pretty much all others, both hdr and sfr, i've also tried with matching on and off, including combos of on and off, still get the green flashes... i'm using a 40' bjc active cable from the lumagen to my pj, what are you using?


I'm using an old 30' BJC Series-1, which is passive—which is not typically recommended for 4K at that length, but thankfully (because it would have been a big pain to replace) it has been working fine at 4K24/50/60 from my Radiance to my JVC.

So do you see the green flashes at arbitrary times, or just while it's settling after changing input / frame rate / dynamic range?


----------



## aeneas01

pjones said:


> I'm using an old 30' BJC Series-1, which is passive—which is not typically recommended for 4K at that length, but thankfully (because it would have been a big pain to replace) it has been working fine at 4K24/50/60 from my Radiance to my JVC.
> 
> So do you see the green flashes at arbitrary times, or just while it's settling after changing input / frame rate / dynamic range?


 don't see the green flash at arbitrary times, i see it at very specific times, for example when i start and stop an hdr movie file, or when i do anything with my avr given i've connected one of the lumagen's hdmi outs (audio only in the lumagen's setup) to my avr for audio, which is a real pain in the neck.... if the pj, lumagen and avr are on and i turn off the avr (resulting in no audio) i get a green flash and handshake delay, when i turn the avr on again same thing...

glad you have the long passive working, i've had luck with long passives in the past but thought i'd go ahead and get an active given lumagen's recommendation, might try my passive again... btw i've tried 3 active cables including a ruipro and currently a bjc3 and have gotten the same green flash with all of them, really don't want to spend $500 for tributaries or the like if i don't have to, mat dust off one of many passives and give that a try.


----------



## bobof

aeneas01 said:


> don't see the green flash at arbitrary times, i see it at very specific times, for example when i start and stop an hdr movie file, or when i do anything with my avr given i've connected one of the lumagen's hdmi outs (audio only in the lumagen's setup) to my avr for audio, which is a real pain in the neck.... if the pj, lumagen and avr are on and i turn off the avr (resulting in no audio) i get a green flash and handshake delay, when i turn the avr on again same thing...
> 
> glad you have the long passive working, i've had luck with long passives in the past but thought i'd go ahead and get an active given lumagen's recommendation, might try my passive again... btw i've tried 3 active cables including a ruipro and currently a bjc3 and have gotten the same green flash with all of them, really don't want to spend $500 for tributaries or the like if i don't have to, mat dust off one of many passives and give that a try.


I think you need to treat it like a problem of onion layers and work backwards. You don't say if you get the flashes without the Lumagen in circuit? If you want suggestions on how to set it up that might avoid the flashes you'll need to provide some more information:

1) exactly how is everything wired up?
2) define "do anything with my AVR" - as you say that causes green flashes? It it showing an OSD somewhere?
3) does it go away without the Lumagen in circuit?
4) If you play the content, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
5) If you look at the UI, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
6) Do you have genlock enabled for the inputs?

The above info would start to allow you to formulate an idea of things you could change to see if they affect the problem. I don't have any flashes, but I also have a JVC projector which blacks the screen for 10-15s. One thing I did early on with my JVC was disable the blue input background and corner display of HDMI input info as it made the presentation much cleaner - but those were both projector settings.

Have you contacted Lumagen support? They're very helpful and will have seen most issues before.


----------



## bobof

pjones said:


> I do remember that firmware back-and-forth and had asked Lumagen about it at the time—they explained to me that the audio dropouts which they were trying to fix would happen every 30 seconds on DV+Atmos content from ATV4K. Maybe I'm just not noticing it with LPCM audio, though I'd think that I (or someone at my house) would have by now.


It is just not very noticeable on ATV in PCM mode. If you want to try a title that I know you can spot it on, I recall "the Meg" from Itunes library at 5mins 5s or so as the helicopter comes in to land is very noticeable in Atmos mode, and just about audible in non-Atmos mode. That title has them every 5m 5s or so. Netflix Iron Fist Season 1 was also quite easy to hear it on - you just need to listen carefully. I don't have it hooked up in the way that makes it happen at the moment. 

In Iron Fist they are there every 30s from the start but to be very noticeable in PCM mode the glitch has to coincide with the audio samples either side of the glitch having a highish level - otherwise you don't hear the glitch. But because of that they can often disappear into the background of the noise.

I'm glad it doesn't seem to bother you but I'd be very surprised if you don't have it in your system. You don't mention it explicitly I think, but I assume you have the 18G input cards and the ATV is input to the Lumagen, that you are watching the content from the Apple TV in HDR mode (you need that to get the glitch) with the audio coming out of the Lumagen and playing into the AVR via one of the HDMI outs of the Lumagen?


----------



## jabz

Has anyone compared the recently released DTM firmware for the JVC NX range vs the Lumagen DTM?


----------



## audioguy

Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?

Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed *THIS DEVICE* (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen. 

As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.


----------



## Bumper

Hopefully a simple question for this thread;


I use an HTPC (MPC-BE + MadVR) outputting 3840x2160 all the time for all content (720, 1080 and 4K). The HTPC is connected to a Sony VPL-VW760ES. If a Lumagen Radiance Pro sits in the video stream, will it still use its upscaling algo's and can Darbee be used when the HTPC is playing non 4K (so 720 or 1080) content or does the HTPC output and therefore the Lumagen input need a 1080p signal in this case?


----------



## bobof

Bumper said:


> Hopefully a simple question for this thread;
> 
> 
> I use an HTPC (MPC-BE + MadVR) outputting 3840x2160 all the time for all content (720, 1080 and 4K). The HTPC is connected to a Sony VPL-VW760ES. If a Lumagen Radiance Pro sits in the video stream, will it still use its upscaling algo's and can Darbee be used when the HTPC is playing non 4K (so 720 or 1080) content or does the HTPC output and therefore the Lumagen input need a 1080p signal in this case?


Well, if you leave the PC configured to upscale then no, the Lumagen won't do any upscaling and no, you won't be able to use Darbee functionality - it has a hard max of 1080p.

You'd have to configure your PC to output 720p or 1080p if you want to use either the upscaling or Darbee capabilities. So to use Darbee on 1080p content you would have to also use the Lumagen's upscaling.


----------



## SJHT

audioguy said:


> Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?
> 
> .


I also can see hardly any difference. Must need to be an expert to spot.


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> I also can see hardly any difference. Must need to be an expert to spot.


When I first got the new release on the content I happened to be watching (can't remember what it was  ) it made quite an obvious effect, though last night when I was messing around with the clipped scenes in El Camino it made seemingly quite little difference, so it seems quite scene dependent.


----------



## Kris Deering

aeneas01 said:


> @*bobof* , found all of your responses extremely helpful and informative, thanks very much!
> 
> i'm also battling some handshake issues where the screen flashes green and then black, it happens when i try to play a 4k hdr movie file, and happens again when i stop play, doesn't matter what i set the apple tv 4k to (4k hdr 60, 4k sdr 60, or any other variation the atv4k offers), always happens... also, on top of this, when i play a 4k hdr movie file there's a delay in displaying the image, the image will finally display about 5 secs in so i won't see the full studio introduction.
> 
> looking at the link to the lumagen manual you posted, i didn't realize that my 9ghz output cards (18 input cards) were limited 4:2:0, 8-bit... consequently, is there any reason to set the atv4k output to anything higher than that, 4:4:4 for example? in fact by setting the 4tv4k to a different chroma subsampling than the lumagen can't output, would this contribute to handshake issues (green flash)?
> 
> and finally, what hdr tone mapping settings do you recommend for cms1? i have an espon 6050ub.
> btw, i updated the lumagen's firmware a couple of nights ago, how do i access dtm setting using the remote? when i was paying around with the atv4k's hdr output settings, i noticed that it caused the dtm menu to pop up at one point, which i dismissed, haven't seen that menu again.
> 
> thanks!


For the ATV I typically set them up to be 4K60 SDR for the output with both range and rate match to ON. Chroma output is typically 444, but 420 works fine too. The Lumagen is designed to process and output in 422, so I would not recommend changing the output (neither would Lumagen) to 444. I've setup LOTS of ATVs this way in lots of different setups (including my own) with no issues other than the stupid audio drop outs when watching content that is specifically Dolby Vision with Dolby Atmos (I get no dropouts with Atmos tracks that are not tied to a DV title). 



jabz said:


> Has anyone compared the recently released DTM firmware for the JVC NX range vs the Lumagen DTM?


 I have. The Lumagen is still quite a step up, though the JVC did far better than I was expecting for their first time out. I find the Lumagen does a better job with both darker titles and high brightness titles. I see some occasional clipping with the JVCs that I don't see with the Lumagen, even with a Pad level of 3. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Lumagen DTM is still based around your measured brightness levels whereas the JVC does not give you that option. I did a comparison for two friends recently with a mix of content and they both thought the JVC did a great job but saw clear improvements with the Lumagen. We used a mix of titles that included The Meg, the new Spears and Munsil 4K Benchmark demo montage, Lucy and Blade Runner 2049. 



audioguy said:


> Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?
> 
> Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed *THIS DEVICE* (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.
> 
> As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.


For the first one, the reason is simple when you think about it. I've seen people talk about the shape/transition function in this way too. With the new DTM and the more aggressive padding, there isn't nearly as much range being wasted, so when you change things the differences are MUCH smaller compared to what you were doing before. Each frame is much closer to a static tone map for that specific frame, so the range of manipulation is much smaller than what you had before (much larger pad or static). The amount of instances where you are going to see artifacts that may need a setting change is much smaller now (ON PURPOSE!) so that people don't feel like they have to fiddle (which is a really good thing since most owners don't even know what the settings are supposed to be doing in the first place!). With a DPAD of 3 there is a chance you could see some artifacts if you knew what to look for. You also loose a bit of saturation/contrast going that high but you get the brighter highlights. With a DPAD of 1 or 2 you're likely to see clipped whites more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes that have highlights. As you go to a higher number in DPAD (say a 6) you will get a bit more saturation in colors and overall contrast, but again, the difference isn't huge because of the way they are now doing the tone map and per frame adaptation.


----------



## cappy1

audioguy said:


> Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed *THIS DEVICE* (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.
> 
> .


Why not control using an IP to IR converter, converting at the equipment being controlled. I am not familiar with Control4, but you may wish to check compatibility with something like:
https://www.amazon.com/Global-Cache-IP2IR-iTach-Wired/dp/B073XPV13V


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed *THIS DEVICE* (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.
> 
> As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.


There are some Control4 bits here, I don't use Control4 but I figure they're likely useful for you:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control
Even if those modules don't do what you need, I can't believe it would be very hard to control a Lumagen from Control4. You literally only need to send single characters over the serial port to emulate the remote control keys, or use an IR emitter out of the control4 box to the front of the Lumagen.

Really though Control4 is an installer product - your installer should be able to sort this out a it is a simple problem. If they can't and they're leaving you to do it, new installer time...


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> For the first one, the reason is simple when you think about it. I've seen people talk about the shape/transition function in this way too. With the new DTM and the more aggressive padding, there isn't nearly as much range being wasted, so when you change things the differences are MUCH smaller compared to what you were doing before. Each frame is much closer to a static tone map for that specific frame, so the range of manipulation is much smaller than what you had before (much larger pad or static). The amount of instances where you are going to see artifacts that may need a setting change is much smaller now (ON PURPOSE!) so that people don't feel like they have to fiddle (which is a really good thing since most owners don't even know what the settings are supposed to be doing in the first place!). With a DPAD of 3 there is a chance you could see some artifacts if you knew what to look for. You also loose a bit of saturation/contrast going that high but you get the brighter highlights. With a DPAD of 1 or 2 you're likely to see clipped whites more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes that have highlights. As you go to a higher number in DPAD (say a 6) you will get a bit more saturation in colors and overall contrast, but again, the difference isn't huge because of the way they are now doing the tone map and per frame adaptation.



So would a rough translation of the above be that since the differences between DTM on and off are larger than they use to be, the differences in various DPad settings are smaller?


----------



## JFR0317

bobof said:


> There are some Control4 bits here, I don't use Control4 but I figure they're likely useful for you:
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control
> Even if those modules don't do what you need, I can't believe it would be very hard to control a Lumagen from Control4. You literally only need to send single characters over the serial port to emulate the remote control keys, or use an IR emitter out of the control4 box to the front of the Lumagen.
> 
> Really though Control4 is an installer product - your installer should be able to sort this out a it is a simple problem. If they can't and they're leaving you to do it, new installer time...


Thanks for posting this. When I originally installed my Radiance Pro 3.5 years ago, I didn't see the DVD Secondary IR driver to download. It looks like the installer will just need to add the "DVD Secondary IR" driver to the project and make a binding from the "Virtual Output - Video - HDMI" to an input on the AV Switch driver and make a binding from the DVD Secondary IR driver's IR Input to a Control4 controller IR output (plus either use the controller's front panel IR blaster or use a wired IR emitter).

I'm check to confirm this works the next time I am at my Austin house.


----------



## bobof

JFR0317 said:


> Thanks for posting this. When I originally installed my Radiance Pro 3.5 years ago, I didn't see the DVD Secondary IR driver to download. It looks like the installer will just need to add the "DVD Secondary IR" driver to the project and make a binding from the "Virtual Output - Video - HDMI" to an input on the AV Switch driver and make a binding from the DVD Secondary IR driver's IR Input to a Control4 controller IR output (plus either use the controller's front panel IR blaster or use a wired IR emitter).
> 
> I'm check to confirm this works the next time I am at my Austin house.


It' all double dutch to me (though I've designed product controlled by Control4 and other systems I'm not familiar with the Control4 language or usage). Anyway, hopefully those files will be useful for you. I did my own control myself using a raspberry Pi for auto aspect / screen masking control duties.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the first one, the reason is simple when you think about it. I've seen people talk about the shape/transition function in this way too. With the new DTM and the more aggressive padding, there isn't nearly as much range being wasted, so when you change things the differences are MUCH smaller compared to what you were doing before. Each frame is much closer to a static tone map for that specific frame, so the range of manipulation is much smaller than what you had before (much larger pad or static). The amount of instances where you are going to see artifacts that may need a setting change is much smaller now (ON PURPOSE!) so that people don't feel like they have to fiddle (which is a really good thing since most owners don't even know what the settings are supposed to be doing in the first place!). With a DPAD of 3 there is a chance you could see some artifacts if you knew what to look for. You also loose a bit of saturation/contrast going that high but you get the brighter highlights. With a DPAD of 1 or 2 you're likely to see clipped whites more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes that have highlights. As you go to a higher number in DPAD (say a 6) you will get a bit more saturation in colors and overall contrast, but again, the difference isn't huge because of the way they are now doing the tone map and per frame adaptation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So would a rough translation of the above be that since the differences between DTM on and off are larger than they use to be, the differences in various DPad settings are smaller?
Click to expand...

For the most part. If you went back to the static days the tone map was based on the brightest part of the movie. So the difference between the peak of a single scene and tells tone map was quite large u less you just happened to be on that peak scene. Then when DTM first was introduced the difference between a scene and the tone map got smaller, but there was still quite a bot of pad to account for right objects that may pop up in a scene so you wouldn’t see clipping. With the latest iteration the pad is much smaller so you have even less deviation. So if you run a DPAD of like 9 vs 1, the settings would show more latitude because you are using more padding. But with something like a 3 or 4 the gap between the tone map and the scene itself is tiny, so changing settings doesn’t show as much variation.


----------



## aeneas01

bobof said:


> I think you need to treat it like a problem of onion layers and work backwards. You don't say if you get the flashes without the Lumagen in circuit? If you want suggestions on how to set it up that might avoid the flashes you'll need to provide some more information:
> 
> 1) exactly how is everything wired up?
> 2) define "do anything with my AVR" - as you say that causes green flashes? It it showing an OSD somewhere?
> 3) does it go away without the Lumagen in circuit?
> 4) If you play the content, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
> 5) If you look at the UI, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
> 6) Do you have genlock enabled for the inputs?
> 
> The above info would start to allow you to formulate an idea of things you could change to see if they affect the problem. I don't have any flashes, but I also have a JVC projector which blacks the screen for 10-15s. One thing I did early on with my JVC was disable the blue input background and corner display of HDMI input info as it made the presentation much cleaner - but those were both projector settings.
> 
> Have you contacted Lumagen support? They're very helpful and will have seen most issues before.


 thanks for your response....

everything is very straightforward in terms of wiring, couldn't be simpler, atv4k into lumagen, out to pj (video) and avr (audio), genlock is set at default, haven't changed it.

it's become clear that it's an hdr handshake issue, happens with or without the lumagen in the loop, altho with the lumagen the handshakes are considerably longer as is the duration and intensity of the green flash (which fills the entire screen by the way).

disable hdr in the 4tv4k and everything is silky smooth.... i've tried every combo of hdr and sdr setting in the 4tv4k, matching on/off, and just about every lumagen input / output setting (fixed 60hz, color spaces, etc.), nothing mitigates the hdr issue.

it's either an epson pj issue or an hdmi cable issue, but given i've tried 3 different high quality certified 4k 18ghz cables and it was the same with all, i'm going to go with the epson... add to this lumagen warned me that epson hdmi inputs were a bit problematic when i informed lumagen that i had one on the way... if the epson blacked out the screen during these handshakes as the jvc does (i was told) instead of flashing green, it could be workable, but the constant green flashing whenever i start, stop, pause an hdr file is a real pain... i have a movie folder with about 30 hdr demo clips, very short in duration, that's a real treat to watch when set to play one after another, argh.

here's the thing, i could probably live with the issue, but pj hdr is so finicky i'm wondering if it's even worth it... every hdr title seems to respond entirely differently to the hdr settings, it's not even remotely close to a one size fits all proposition, for example i was testing "passengers" (hdr) and tweaked the hdr settings on the lumagen and pj a bit and got an absolutely stunning hdr picture, it's was very, very impressive, then tried i tried the "dark knight" (hdr) and a lot of it was blown out, then i tried "jurassic world" (hdr) and it was a completely new set of issues... that said, i could tweak the hdr setting for each title and get a stunning hdr picture, but who wants to do that every time they want to watch and hdr movie?

insult to injury, when i connect the same setup to my 60" lg oled 4k hdr tv, i.e. when i swap out the pj for the lg, everything works like a dream, especially hdr, silky smooth, no hint of green flashes, super quick handshakes, and the image is stunning, alas if i could only blow up the lg to 150"!

anyway, not sure where i'm going to go from here, non hdr movie files have been absolutely beautiful with the lumagen and epson, spectacular even, minus all of the handshake issues, maybe i'll just try that road for now, maybe even try some of these "harpervision" settings that reportedly ape hdr without enabling hdr.


off topic - does anyone know why paragraphs are double spacing when i post? this never used to happen, now i have to edit my posts in order to remove the double spacing.


----------



## aeneas01

Kris Deering said:


> For the ATV I typically set them up to be 4K60 SDR for the output with both range and rate match to ON. Chroma output is typically 444, but 420 works fine too. The Lumagen is designed to process and output in 422, so I would not recommend changing the output (neither would Lumagen) to 444. I've setup LOTS of ATVs this way in lots of different setups (including my own) with no issues other than the stupid audio drop outs when watching content that is specifically Dolby Vision with Dolby Atmos (I get no dropouts with Atmos tracks that are not tied to a DV title).


thanks for the response kris...

yes, that's one of the first things i did when i purchased the apple tv 4k, set it to 4k60 sdr, it was one of the many tips i came across in a youtube atv4k setup vid that i watched while waiting for it to arrive, have also tried chroma at 444 and 420 (and 422 with other atvk4 settings), made no difference with the handshake / green flash issues i'm having... also, fwiw, i have 9ghz output cards in my radiance pro (18ghz input cards), so setting the lumagen to 4k60 output mode results in 4:2:0 8-bit.


----------



## bobof

aeneas01 said:


> thanks for your response....
> 
> everything is very straightforward in terms of wiring, couldn't be simpler, atv4k into lumagen, out to pj (video) and avr (audio), genlock is set at default, haven't changed it.
> 
> it's become clear that it's an hdr handshake issue, happens with or without the lumagen in the loop, altho with the lumagen the handshakes are considerably longer as is the duration and intensity of the green flash (which fills the entire screen by the way).
> 
> disable hdr in the 4tv4k and everything is silky smooth.... i've tried every combo of hdr and sdr setting in the 4tv4k, matching on/off, and just about every lumagen input / output setting (fixed 60hz, color spaces, etc.), nothing mitigates the hdr issue.
> 
> it's either an epson pj issue or an hdmi cable issue, but given i've tried 3 different high quality certified 4k 18ghz cables and it was the same with all, i'm going to go with the epson... add to this lumagen warned me that epson hdmi inputs were a bit problematic when i informed lumagen that i had one on the way... if the epson blacked out the screen during these handshakes as the jvc does (i was told) instead of flashing green, it could be workable, but the constant green flashing whenever i start, stop, pause an hdr file is a real pain... i have a movie folder with about 30 hdr demo clips, very short in duration, that's a real treat to watch when set to play one after another, argh.
> 
> here's the thing, i could probably live with the issue, but pj hdr is so finicky i'm wondering if it's even worth it... every hdr title seems to respond entirely differently to the hdr settings, it's not even remotely close to a one size fits all proposition, for example i was testing "passengers" (hdr) and tweaked the hdr settings on the lumagen and pj a bit and got an absolutely stunning hdr picture, it's was very, very impressive, then tried i tried the "dark knight" (hdr) and a lot of it was blown out, then i tried "jurassic world" (hdr) and it was a completely new set of issues... that said, i could tweak the hdr setting for each title and get a stunning hdr picture, but who wants to do that every time they want to watch and hdr movie?
> 
> insult to injury, when i connect the same setup to my 60" lg oled 4k hdr tv, i.e. when i swap out the pj for the lg, everything works like a dream, especially hdr, silky smooth, no hint of green flashes, super quick handshakes, and the image is stunning, alas if i could only blow up the lg to 150"!
> 
> anyway, not sure where i'm going to go from here, non hdr movie files have been absolutely beautiful with the lumagen and epson, spectacular even, minus all of the handshake issues, maybe i'll just try that road for now, maybe even try some of these "harpervision" settings that reportedly ape hdr without enabling hdr.


From what you are saying it seems most likely that the Epson has those flashes across changes in input formats.

In that case you'd want to do everything you can to minimize output changes from the Lumagen. Note these settings are usually 180 degrees away from what you'd want to do for best quality, but you're trying to work around an errant display here it seems so you don't have much choice.

One way to do that would be to sacrifice the framerate and dynamic range matching in the AppleTV. This should most likely prevent the green flashes. You'd need to set the AppleTV to 60p HDR output, and it would put SDR content within that HDR container, and turn 24p content into 60p. Some displays can perform an inverse telecine conversion on the 60p output to get back to 24p to fix up the motion - I'm not sure if your Epson can do that,

Another alternative is to leave the AppleTV doing match rate and match dynamic range, set the AppleTV UI to 24p as most netflix content is 24p these days, and set up the Lumagen to map SDR and HDR content into the same output (you can set them up to use the same CMS for output, with the gamut mapping option set in the output). It will then use your tone mapping settings for HDR and will remap SDR into this output. You may still get flashes though when switching to 60p content - you always have the option of disabling match rate and going with 60p out of the AppleTV, or you can make the Lumagen convert all 24p content to 60p. The later is a setup recommended by Lumagen for minimizing output mode changes. 

Anyway, those are some things you could try. None are perfect, and it will depend on how much the green flashes are bothering you whether the compromises are worth it; it sounds like if the Epson PJ behaves that way without the Lumagen in circuit then you're just into making the best of a bad situation.

I really don't think static "Harpervision" settings are going to give you anything at all over a dynamic tone mapping solution. If they would then we're all wasting our time here with working on dynamic solutions... And it's not like that will solve your green flashes either it seems.


----------



## gattorodolfo

yes, I also have problems with the latest firmware with hlg that I did not have with the previous one


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> When I was helping Jim and Pat on the last big update to the tone mapping I was experimenting a lot with different things that showed there were limitations in highlights due to the "padding" used on the upper end to eliminate the chance for clipping/artifacts. I discussed with them the idea of doing a true "dynamic" tone map that enabled the user to adjust how aggressive to be when it came to the "pad" allowing the end user to vary a setting that would give more highlight pop at the expense of some possible artifacts (think of how a dynamic iris works and how more aggressive modes can sometimes show an artifact but give better results with blacks). DPad is exactly that. I've found that a level of 3 gives the best combination of highlight intensity with VERY little artifacts associated with it. 4 is also good and would give less artifacts at the expense of some highlight pop. 2 will likely show too many artifacts for most. 6 is about the same as what the DLev value of 8 was before, which is still quite good but I imagine once people have a taste of 3 or 4 they won't go back to 6.
> 
> As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system).
> 
> So for this build end users shouldn't have to adjust any of their settings from before except that I would recommend they switch DPad to 3 or 4 to give better highlight results when watching content. Enjoy!





Kris Deering said:


> Here is some info on the new DPAD function. I generally use a level of 3, but 4 is quite good as well and will probably have less of a chance of artifacts:
> 
> DPad=1 generally slightly below peak so will see more clipping, but will be
> brighter (IN MY TESTING THERE ARE TOO MANY CLIPPING ARTIFACTS WITH THIS OR A LEVEL OF 2)
> 
> DPad=3 generally at scene peak or slightly higher (OCCASIONAL ARTIFACTS IN VERY DIFFICULT MATERIAL)
> 
> DPad=4 generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount (ARTIFACTS ARE RARE)
> of pad depending on scene
> 
> DPad=6 closest to current Dlev of 8 (IF YOU LIKED WHAT YOU HAD BEFORE THIS UPDATE, USE THIS)
> 
> DPad=8 more pad then current with Dlev of 8


Hi Kris, 

I am updating my Setup & Calibration Tips document with the new DTM Pad, and wanted to be sure I have interpreted correctly what you posted above about the DPad settings. In the below, I am trying to explain what happens with highlight intensity, color saturation, contrast, and artifacts at each level of adjustment. I totally made up 5 and 7, since I did not find any posts about those levels. 

Thanks for your continued efforts in improving DTM. I plan on sharing this information once I have finished editing.

▪	Below are explanations of what you may see as you adjust the DPad levels as explained by Kris Deering in this post and this post. The differences may be hard to see due to the per-frame adjustments made by the Adaptive feature.

•	Level 1: Greatest highlight intensity, least color saturation and contrast, with too many artifacts. This is generally slightly below peak, so clipped whites may appear more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes with highlights.

•	Level 2: Increase highlight intensity, decreased color saturation and contrast, but will likely show too many artifacts.

•	Level 3: The best combination of highlight intensity (pop), a slight loss of color saturation and contrast, with minimal artifacts. The artifacts would only be occasional in very difficult material. This is generally at scene peak or slightly higher. 

•	Level 4: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with extremely rare artifacts. This is generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount of pad.

•	Level 5: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.

•	Level 6: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts. It is about the same as what the Dynamic Level value of 8 was in the prior releases, which is still quite good.

•	Level 7: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.

•	Level 8: Least highlight intensity, greatest color saturation and contrast, with no artifacts.


----------



## Kris Deering

giomania said:


> Hi Kris,
> 
> I am updating my Setup & Calibration Tips document with the new DTM Pad, and wanted to be sure I have interpreted correctly what you posted above about the DPad settings. In the below, I am trying to explain what happens with highlight intensity, color saturation, contrast, and artifacts at each level of adjustment. I totally made up 5 and 7, since I did not find any posts about those levels.
> 
> Thanks for your continued efforts in improving DTM. I plan on sharing this information once I have finished editing.
> 
> ▪	Below are explanations of what you may see as you adjust the DPad levels as explained by Kris Deering in this post and this post. The differences may be hard to see due to the per-frame adjustments made by the Adaptive feature.
> 
> •	Level 1: Greatest highlight intensity, least color saturation and contrast, with too many artifacts. This is generally slightly below peak, so clipped whites may appear more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes with highlights.
> 
> •	Level 2: Increase highlight intensity, decreased color saturation and contrast, but will likely show too many artifacts.
> 
> •	Level 3: The best combination of highlight intensity (pop), a slight loss of color saturation and contrast, with minimal artifacts. The artifacts would only be occasional in very difficult material. This is generally at scene peak or slightly higher.
> 
> •	Level 4: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with extremely rare artifacts. This is generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount of pad.
> 
> •	Level 5: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.
> 
> •	Level 6: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts. It is about the same as what the Dynamic Level value of 8 was in the prior releases, which is still quite good.
> 
> •	Level 7: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.
> 
> •	Level 8: Least highlight intensity, greatest color saturation and contrast, with no artifacts.


That all looks fine. I would generally NOT advise to use DPAD levels of 1 or 2 under any circumstances. Same would probably go for 7 or 8 unless you have a REALLY bright display and would like to get a bit more saturation/contrast. But I generally think that people that have a LOT of light output should chose to bring it down using something like an aperture to increase contrast. Remember, higher light output only helps HDR if you are not hurting your blacks and contrast to get it. Otherwise you are just getting a brighter highlight at the expense of all else. Once you hit about 30 fL (100 nits) or so, you shouldn't really need a lot more headroom for HDR unless you're just someone that is in love with an extremely bright image. Once you hit around that level I would concentrate on trying to get more contrast out of the image, this will do more for "highlights" than just making EVERYTHING bright.


----------



## Hyrax

Hello-
I've a general question about video processors. I'm looking for a TV for daytime viewing. I have a 1080P projector and can make my TV room reasonably dark. Even though it is too dark to read a book, contrast and details are still lost while watching in the afternoon. The problem with adding a flat panel is that most of the TV reviews talk about their motion processing being bad (except some Sony models, perhaps). I have a DVDO Edge currently and it does a pretty good job getting rid of these problems with most videos, but there are still plenty of stutter/judder problems.


For example,I am quite aware of what I think of as stutter in poorly transferred/authored European TV shows. The motion is just not smooth and it feels a bit like vertigo to watch some of those shows. The way I currently deal with European shows is to set my video player output to PAL, and have my EDGE convert it to 60 FPS. This almost gets rid of the problems. 


Does it make sense to get something like a Lumagen to address these motion issues? Can it convert videos to 60 FPS without making the shows look awful. On a side issue, can it also tone down bright white subtitles?


Thanks in advance.


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> That all looks fine. I would generally NOT advise to use DPAD levels of 1 or 2 under any circumstances. Same would probably go for 7 or 8 unless you have a REALLY bright display and would like to get a bit more saturation/contrast. But I generally think that people that have a LOT of light output should chose to bring it down using something like an aperture to increase contrast. Remember, higher light output only helps HDR if you are not hurting your blacks and contrast to get it. Otherwise you are just getting a brighter highlight at the expense of all else. Once you hit about 30 fL (100 nits) or so, you shouldn't really need a lot more headroom for HDR unless you're just someone that is in love with an extremely bright image. Once you hit around that level I would concentrate on trying to get more contrast out of the image, this will do more for "highlights" than just making EVERYTHING bright.


Thank you Kris. I have added the link to the document in Google Drive to my signature. When viewed with formatting in the Word document, I think it is clear that the reader is guided to use DPad level 3.

Mark


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?
> 
> Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed *THIS DEVICE* (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.
> 
> As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.


I use the same exact device and it works for me every time. I also have a Harmony RF system. I set up the IR repeater system, so that I could use the IR remotes for system setup, when I need to make changes to the system. Use the Harmony for everyday use.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?


I tried different dPad levels with a scene in " Passengers " paused, and I could certainly see brightness differences going from 6 to 1! Seeing as I like a bright picture, 3 seemed just right.


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> I use the same exact device and it works for me every time.



It worked for a while and then it quit. If I put the receiver eye in my brightly lit equipment room, it works 100% of the time. If I put it where it was in the theater (just below the screen), it does NOT work 100% of the time - even if all of the theater lights are on. As of now, I open the door to the equipment room and attach the receiver eye to the open door and THEN it mostly works !!


BIZARRE !!!


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> It worked for a while and then it quit. If I put the receiver eye in my brightly lit equipment room, it works 100% of the time. If I put it where it was in the theater (just below the screen), it does NOT work 100% of the time - even if all of the theater lights are on. As of now, I open the door to the equipment room and attach the receiver eye to the open door and THEN it mostly works !!
> 
> 
> BIZARRE !!!


That is strange. I added an extender cable to the receiver and have it located at the front of the room, above my screen. My room is a black pit. Since my equipment room is on the floor below my theater, I was getting some dropout with my Harmony system. So I moved the Harmony hub into my theater room. I now have the harmony hub blaster sending the signal to the IR receiver in the room. This setup allows me to use Harmony for everyday use of the system and not have to point a remote and if I need to use the individual remote for changes or programing, I just aim them at the IR sensor.

Added
I am also using 35/40' existing component cables in the wall to extend the IR emitters from the BAFX to my equipment. So I am extending the receiver and extending the emitters. Probably a worst case scenario for use and it is working well for me.


----------



## Wayne Z

*Goliath on Amazon Prime*

After installing the new Lumagen software and using the default settings, I watched Dunkirk on disc, El Camino on Netflix and Lone Survivor on iTunes. El Camino and Lone Survivor were streamed from an Apple TV 4K. Both Dunkirk and Lone Survivor were beautiful, and El Camino was very good. My display is a Sony 885 projector, and the picture was more than bight enough on all of these films. 

Then we come to Goliath from Amazon Prime. I streamed it in 4K on the Apple TV, and also a Fire TV stick. It looked terrible on both. The picture in 4K is so dim that it's like watching through a neutral density filter. I have noticed this on other Amazon Prime series. It was so bad that I watched most of the series on a Roku Ultra set to 1080p output. Is there any fix for this, or is it up to Amazon to fix it?


----------



## Mike Garrett

Wayne Z said:


> After installing the new Lumagen software and using the default settings, I watched Dunkirk on disc, El Camino on Netflix and Lone Survivor on iTunes. El Camino and Lone Survivor were streamed from an Apple TV 4K. Both Dunkirk and Lone Survivor were beautiful, and El Camino was very good. My display is a Sony 885 projector, and the picture was more than bight enough on all of these films.
> 
> Then we come to Goliath from Amazon Prime. I streamed it in 4K on the Apple TV, and also a Fire TV stick. It looked terrible on both. The picture in 4K is so dim that it's like watching through a neutral density filter. I have noticed this on other Amazon Prime series. It was so bad that I watched most of the series on a Roku Ultra set to 1080p output. Is there any fix for this, or is it up to Amazon to fix it?


I just went and checked Goliath on my RS3000 with Lumagen DTM and it looked fine. Slightly darker than some of the HDR that I watched, but nothing to complain about. I am streaming using a Roku Ultra. Now I am in a black pit of a room. If I had much ambient light, then it would have been too dark.


----------



## dgkula

Hi, 

QQ pls - I currently have a JVC RS620 and I just bought a used Lumagen 4242 18G. I have an HDfury integral 2 inline stripping HDR flag and sending RS232 commands to change to a custom HDR curve based on HDR metadata & enabling DI with HDR. 

With the Lumagen I will use DTM for HDR:

1. Will I be able to enable DI? I guess I can keep the Integral inline and strip HDR flag and just switch to a single default HDR picture mode if no other method exists with the Lumagen to enable DI

2. I have not changed the gamma curve for the "HDR" default HDR picture mode (it is set at ST.2084) but have changed settings like "Picture Tone", "Dark Level", "Bright Level" etc. When using DTM do I want all of these settings at "0" or default value so as not to change the image coming from the Lumagen?

Thanks!


----------



## KarlKlammer

dgkula said:


> Hi,
> 
> QQ pls - I currently have a JVC RS620 and I just bought a used Lumagen 4242 18G. I have an HDfury integral 2 inline stripping HDR flag and sending RS232 commands to change to a custom HDR curve based on HDR metadata & enabling DI with HDR.
> 
> With the Lumagen I will use DTM for HDR:
> 
> 1. Will I be able to enable DI? I guess I can keep the Integral inline and strip HDR flag and just switch to a single default HDR picture mode if no other method exists with the Lumagen to enable DI
> 
> 2. I have not changed the gamma curve for the "HDR" default HDR picture mode (it is set at ST.2084) but have changed settings like "Picture Tone", "Dark Level", "Bright Level" etc. When using DTM do I want all of these settings at "0" or default value so as not to change the image coming from the Lumagen?
> 
> Thanks!



You don't really need the Integral to strip the HDR flag. The Radiance can do this on its own. But to automatically switch to an HDR picture mode, you would need the macro functionality of the integral. With HDR flag stripped, you can use the DI. 
In order to use DTM you have to switch the RS620 to Gamma 2.4. Picture Tone, Dark and Bright Level are only needed to get a straight Gamma 2.4.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> But to automatically switch to an HDR picture mode, you would need the macro functionality of the integral.


You can have the Radiance Pro add the HDR flag back in (SDH2020) also.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Wookii said:


> You can have the Radiance Pro add the HDR flag back in (SDH2020) also.


That is extremely useful for the JVC N series, but no so much for an RS620.


----------



## Wookii

KarlKlammer said:


> That is extremely useful for the JVC N series, but no so much for an RS620.


Oh right, does the 620 revert to gamma D like the 600 did then? 

Adding the flag back in work perfectly for the Z1, so I assumed the 620 might work in a similar way.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Wookii said:


> Oh right, does the 620 revert to gamma D like the 600 did then?
> 
> Adding the flag back in work perfectly for the Z1, so I assumed the 620 might work in a similar way.


Yes, it reverts back to the ST.2084 gamma. Even if it is not quite as awful as gamma D, there never was a time when I would have wanted to use it.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, it reverts back to the ST.2084 gamma. Even if it is not quite as awful as gamma D, there never was a time when I would have wanted to use it.


At least on the newer units (540/X7900) although it defaults to ST.2084 gamma you can set it to 2.4 gamma in the mode which is auto selected. I wouldn't use the auto-select for other reasons though - the JVC units aren't very good at tracking what they do with the iris across mode changes and power downs. Better to explicitly set the projector to a mode.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 100619*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Beta 100619*
- Posted 101819 
Bugfix for issue updating from 082219 and getting no picture with forced output mode selection via "menu 0874" command. 
Added P3 colorspace to 'ZY46FC' rs232 command. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


*Beta 100119* 
- Posted 100819
A small improvement to DTM (dynamic tone mapping) that improves some scenes with low light levels. 
A small fix for starting up test patterns via rs232. 
Fix for the Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match menu not allowing changes to rate match setting. 
Couple other minor bugs fixed.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Ash Sharma

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *Beta 100619*
> - Posted 101819
> Bugfix for issue updating from 082219 and getting no picture with forced output mode selection via "menu 0874" command.
> Added P3 colorspace to 'ZY46FC' rs232 command.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
> 
> 
> *Beta 100119*
> - Posted 100819
> A small improvement to DTM (dynamic tone mapping) that improves some scenes with low light levels.
> A small fix for starting up test patterns via rs232.
> Fix for the Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match menu not allowing changes to rate match setting.
> Couple other minor bugs fixed.
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Can these firmware upgrades be skipped? 
In other words, if I install 100619 do I automatically get all the goodies of 100119?


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> Can these firmware upgrades be skipped?
> In other words, if I install 100619 do I automatically get all the goodies of 100119?


That's always the case with all Lumagen updates to date. The package includes everything, but the updater is smart enough if you don't run it in the forced mode to update only the bits it needs to in the flash memory (to save time). If you skip updates though the update time may be longer as the assumption in the posted time is that you are running the previous version.


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> That's always the case with all Lumagen updates to date. The package includes everything, but the updater is smart enough if you don't run it in the forced mode to update only the bits it needs to in the flash memory (to save time). If you skip updates though the update time may be longer as the assumption in the posted time is that you are running the previous version.




How can i do forced mode 

I do it without skip always and it’s take time 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

I use Auto Aspect Detection (which I love) but can't recall the keys to use to "freeze" it at the current aspect.


Thanks


----------



## Mike_WI

A7mad78 said:


> How can i do forced mode
> 
> I do it without skip always and it’s take time
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you only use forced mode when something isn't working.
Set up FW update and go grab a beer or make a sandwich and be patient.


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> I think you only use forced mode when something isn't working.
> 
> Set up FW update and go grab a beer or make a sandwich and be patient.




Hahahah that’s what I do I install both of them and enjoy a cup of espresso and a cigar  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kelvin1965S

My software update process is as follows:

1. Read on here or Lumagen's site that there is a new update.
2. Post on the UK forum to let readers there know incase they haven't seen this thread.
3. Wait up to a week for posts on here to see if any issues.
4. Check again no further updates (if so repeat 3).
5. Start the update and go and play my guitar...by the time I remember I'd started the update it's finished. 

All being well I'll update next Saturday.


----------



## wjchan

Kelvin1965S said:


> My software update process is as follows:
> 
> 1. Read on here or Lumagen's site that there is a new update.
> 2. Post on the UK forum to let readers there know incase they haven't seen this thread.
> 3. Wait up to a week for posts on here to see if any issues.
> 4. Check again no further updates (if so repeat 3).
> 5. Start the update and go and play my guitar...by the time I remember I'd started the update it's finished.
> 
> All being well I'll update next Saturday.


Why so cautious? You can always revert to an older firmware.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

wjchan said:


> Why so cautious? You can always revert to an older firmware.


Because I only tend to sit down and watch films at the weekend and I don't want to have to start rolling back software half way through a film...easier to wait and let the early adopters find the bugs (if there are any). No need to be on the bleeding edge all the time these days I find. 

Not like there are any particular issues with the version I'm running anyway, so not really a hardship to watch 2-3 films on this version.

Otherwise there's a danger you end up like the MadVR guys; spend more time faffing about with the gear instead of watching films.


----------



## bobof

A7mad78 said:


> How can i do forced mode
> I do it without skip always and it’s take time


I think you're misunderstanding me.

Forced mode isn't quicker, it forces all areas of flash to update I believe, so I think it always takes the same (long) time.

Normal mode is sometimes quicker depending, I believe, on whether it is just a "program" update or whether you also need an "FPGA" update. (my terms for the parts of the updates, there might be more separate parts or they may not be divided like that).

You can see the difference on the Lumagen support page, where some updates take 1 minute vs previous, and some take 5 minutes vs previous. (for what it is worth I think the 1m is generous even at 230k - it seems to take longer than that for a small update for me),

There is additionally the bootloader flashing mode, but I've only used this in the event of a bad flash (once only on the Pro) as it is a bit awkward - you need access to the power input to the box to be able to disconnect the power, reconnect the power, and then start flashing during the power up process.


----------



## Kris Deering

The DTM update was a fix for some flickering I saw in some low light areas (BR2049 interrogation scene). There were also some framing issues with aspect. I've been running a beta of the software released for about a week or so now with no issues, so should be fine for updating to.


----------



## dlinsley

Kris Deering said:


> The DTM update was a fix for some flickering I saw in some low light areas (BR2049 interrogation scene).


My wife and I noticed some flickering (reduction in overall level and then back to "correct") while watching Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle last week with firmware 092019. First time was when they are on the grassy hill after Nigel drops them off, and second time was in the bizarre around the cake scene where there is a hanging lamp in the background. I couldn't reproduce it later though, and so didn't know if it was the JVC DI or DTM to report it. I've read elsewhere the DI uses fuzzy logic, while I presume DTM produces the same each time?


----------



## Kris Deering

dlinsley said:


> My wife and I noticed some flickering (reduction in overall level and then back to "correct") while watching Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle last week with firmware 092019. First time was when they are on the grassy hill after Nigel drops them off, and second time was in the bizarre around the cake scene where there is a hanging lamp in the background. I couldn't reproduce it later though, and so didn't know if it was the JVC DI or DTM to report it. I've read elsewhere the DI uses fuzzy logic, while I presume DTM produces the same each time?


If it is not reproducible, it isn't the DTM. That should be the same every time. DI can change depending on the lead up.


----------



## darksets

giomania said:


> Hi Kris,
> 
> I am updating my Setup & Calibration Tips document with the new DTM Pad, and wanted to be sure I have interpreted correctly what you posted above about the DPad settings. In the below, I am trying to explain what happens with highlight intensity, color saturation, contrast, and artifacts at each level of adjustment. I totally made up 5 and 7, since I did not find any posts about those levels.
> 
> Thanks for your continued efforts in improving DTM. I plan on sharing this information once I have finished editing.
> 
> ▪ Below are explanations of what you may see as you adjust the DPad levels as explained by Kris Deering in this post and this post. The differences may be hard to see due to the per-frame adjustments made by the Adaptive feature.
> 
> • Level 1: Greatest highlight intensity, least color saturation and contrast, with too many artifacts. This is generally slightly below peak, so clipped whites may appear more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes with highlights.
> 
> • Level 2: Increase highlight intensity, decreased color saturation and contrast, but will likely show too many artifacts.
> 
> • Level 3: The best combination of highlight intensity (pop), a slight loss of color saturation and contrast, with minimal artifacts. The artifacts would only be occasional in very difficult material. This is generally at scene peak or slightly higher.
> 
> • Level 4: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with extremely rare artifacts. This is generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount of pad.
> 
> • Level 5: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.
> 
> • Level 6: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts. It is about the same as what the Dynamic Level value of 8 was in the prior releases, which is still quite good.
> 
> • Level 7: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.
> 
> • Level 8: Least highlight intensity, greatest color saturation and contrast, with no artifacts.


Thanks for the detailed description of the various levels. It's obviously a personal preference. My viewpoint is that it's nuts to exchange highlight intensity for artifacts and reduced color saturation and contrast. I think highlights is a stupid idea that was imposed upon us by the greedy designers of HDR. Higher resolution and color gamut would have been the ideal step up from HD.


----------



## fatherom

With the most recent firmware, I'm seeing some flickering as if DTM is getting confused. Alien Covenant has a few moments of it...anyone else?

Chris


----------



## Kris Deering

darksets said:


> Thanks for the detailed description of the various levels. It's obviously a personal preference. My viewpoint is that it's nuts to exchange highlight intensity for artifacts and reduced color saturation and contrast. I think highlights is a stupid idea that was imposed upon us by the greedy designers of HDR. Higher resolution and color gamut would have been the ideal step up from HD.


The difference in color saturation and contrast is minimal at best. You are more likely to see difference with those variables from how you set your display max light. I watch A LOT of content in testing and rarely see artifacts with the DTM, and I am actually going out of my way to look for them rather than just casual viewing and I still rarely see them with the DPAD level of 3. Any dynamic system will have artifacts, it is the nature of the beast, but you can definitely minimize them with a higher number for DPAD.


----------



## Mike_WI

*All updates are complete and contain everything from earlier updates*



Ash Sharma said:


> Can these firmware upgrades be skipped?
> In other words, if I install 100619 do I automatically get all the goodies of 100119?





bobof said:


> That's always the case with all Lumagen updates to date. The package includes everything, but the updater is smart enough if you don't run it in the forced mode to update only the bits it needs to in the flash memory (to save time). If you skip updates though the update time may be longer as the assumption in the posted time is that you are running the previous version.


And, I guess I missed that this is explicitly stated at the top of the update page:
(bold added)

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates



> The current firmware release is shown at the top of the list below. *All updates are complete and contain everything from earlier updates. So, you only need to load the latest update. *You can check your firmware revision by pressing "OK" on the Radiance Pro remote when the menu is not up, or navigate to the Info Menu.


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> And, I guess I missed that this is explicitly stated at the top of the update page:
> 
> (bold added)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates




U make my day and save time for next upgrades 

Many thx 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gattorodolfo

good morning to all, with the last update known in some films of fast light variations, it suddenly drops then returns as before, this only with values ​​of dtm 1,2,3,4,5, with 6 less with 7 or 8 all is well. have you noticed this too? .

regards


----------



## bobof

gattorodolfo said:


> good morning to all, with the last update known in some films of fast light variations, it suddenly drops then returns as before, this only with values ​​of dtm 1,2,3,4,5, with 6 less with 7 or 8 all is well. have you noticed this too? .


Have you got any example scene timestamps? I've only watched one HDR title since updating (Sicario) and I didn't notice anything there. I run with DPAD set to 4, DML 450, Low ratio 28. Output is SDR P3, real display peak nits around 75.


----------



## gattorodolfo

bobof said:


> Have you got any example scene timestamps? I've only watched one HDR title since updating (Sicario) and I didn't notice anything there. I run with DPAD set to 4, DML 450, Low ratio 28. Output is SDR P3, real display peak nits around 75.


in the movie skyscraper in almost the whole movie


----------



## bobof

gattorodolfo said:


> in the movie skyscraper in almost the whole movie


Are you watching from UHD disc (which player) or streaming?


----------



## gattorodolfo

bobof said:


> Are you watching from UHD disc (which player) or streaming?




from file 1:1


----------



## bobof

gattorodolfo said:


> from file 1:1


Just so I can try it set up the same - what is the player and does it output the correct metadata for the title - and what is that metadata (reported on the Lumagen info screen)?


----------



## gattorodolfo

the two devices are oppo and invidia shild the metadata read by the radiance correspond both to nvidia and oppo 203 the defects of him correspond for the two devices


----------



## bobof

gattorodolfo said:


> the two devices are oppo and invidia shild the metadata read by the radiance correspond both to nvidia and oppo 203 the defects of him correspond for the two devices


Cool, I'll have a look at some point if I see it cheap on UHD disc. I only have that movie in the AppleTV library at the moment. 
What display are you using and do you have any DI / panel dimming or similar enabled?


----------



## gattorodolfo

the apple tv that I own is not ideal as a proof because it is the only device that is not reliable, rather it modifies the metadata, even if the sudden changes of light have nothing to do with this


----------



## Kris Deering

I've reported a few scenes that have a sudden change of light and then back to Pat. He is working on something else at the moment and then will get to this. It is related to the frame adaptive update that fixed a different issue before. Frame adaptive is extremely new, so there were bound to be some tweaking needed. I've only seen the issue in a few movies and it sometimes it is noticeable and other times it is not. So far it is pretty rare. But hopefully he'll be able to find a solution. If it is bothering you enough, you can turn off frame adaptive in the HDR settings menu for the input.


----------



## mskreis

gattorodolfo said:


> good morning to all, with the last update known in some films of fast light variations, it suddenly drops then returns as before, this only with values ​​of dtm 1,2,3,4,5, with 6 less with 7 or 8 all is well. have you noticed this too? .
> 
> 
> 
> regards




I may have experienced the same thing last night while watching the 4K football game via Directv. I noticed abrupt changes in brightness that I’ve never seen before. The broadcast is in HLG. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dgkula

Hi,

I was looking for some feedback please. Last night I put a Lumagen 4242 in my chain and have been experiencing some dropouts. Prior to the Lumagen I had no dropouts.

Prior chain:
Roku Premier Plus > Denon X4300 AVR > HDFury Integral 2 > JVC RS620
Panasonic UB900 > Denon X4300 AVR > HDFury Integral 2 > JVC RS620
All HDMI cables are Blue Jeans. Shorter cables between components and AVR & Integral 2 to JVC at projector are BJC Belden Series-FE. In-wall from AVR to Integral 2 is a 16' BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable.

New chain:
Panasonic UB900 > Lumagen input 1 > Lumagen video out > JVC RS620
Roku Premier Plus > Lumagen input 3 > Lumagen video out >JVC RS620
Lumagen audio out > AVR
All HDMI cables are Blue Jeans. Shorter cables between components and Lumagen are BJC Belden Series-FE. In-wall from Lumagen video out to JVC RS620 is a 16' BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable.

When I powered everything up the Roku defaulted to "auto" detect display type. Prior it had been manually set to 4k60p HDR. I also changed the UB900 to "auto" detect so I can use an input memory to force the UB900 to send 1080p for blu rays to see the Lumagen upscaling.

The dropouts look like handshaking issues and occur mostly after a source change from watching HDR content (SDR2020 to projector w/HDR flag) back to SDR709 (like returning to the menu on the ROku from HDR content). I did have a dropout watching non-HDR 4k content on the ROku as well.

I changed the Roku and the UB900 back to manually select 4k60p HDR display type as I thought maybe something was happening in HDMI that resulted in an erroneous re-negotiation of the display type or something as it was set to "auto" discover the display type - havent watched enough yet to know if that fixed it.

Any thoughts? I have had no dropouts or issues of any kind watching 4kHDR (or just 4k) in my system prior to adding the Lumagen. I am liking the DTM.

Thanks!


----------



## dlinsley

Kris Deering said:


> I've reported a few scenes that have a sudden change of light and then back to Pat. He is working on something else at the moment and then will get to this. It is related to the frame adaptive update that fixed a different issue before. Frame adaptive is extremely new, so there were bound to be some tweaking needed. I've only seen the issue in a few movies and it sometimes it is noticeable and other times it is not. So far it is pretty rare. But hopefully he'll be able to find a solution. If it is bothering you enough, you can turn off frame adaptive in the HDR settings menu for the input.


I wonder if I had frame adaptive when I was watching Jumanji (reported above). I was using a beta firmware from Pat to debug an issue with test patterns on a scope screen/DCR and Calman that I was seeing. Will check tonight


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> I've reported a few scenes that have a sudden change of light and then back to Pat. He is working on something else at the moment and then will get to this. It is related to the frame adaptive update that fixed a different issue before. Frame adaptive is extremely new, so there were bound to be some tweaking needed. I've only seen the issue in a few movies and it sometimes it is noticeable and other times it is not. So far it is pretty rare. But hopefully he'll be able to find a solution. If it is bothering you enough, you can turn off frame adaptive in the HDR settings menu for the input.


I’ve seen this more than a few times on multiple titles - arrival, the Martian, endgame - pretty noticeable.


----------



## Eventidal

dgkula said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was looking for some feedback please. Last night I put a Lumagen 4242 in my chain and have been experiencing some dropouts. Prior to the Lumagen I had no dropouts.
> 
> Prior chain:
> Roku Premier Plus > Denon X4300 AVR > HDFury Integral 2 > JVC RS620
> Panasonic UB900 > Denon X4300 AVR > HDFury Integral 2 > JVC RS620
> All HDMI cables are Blue Jeans. Shorter cables between components and AVR & Integral 2 to JVC at projector are BJC Belden Series-FE. In-wall from AVR to Integral 2 is a 16' BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable.
> 
> New chain:
> Panasonic UB900 > Lumagen input 1 > Lumagen video out > JVC RS620
> Roku Premier Plus > Lumagen input 3 > Lumagen video out >JVC RS620
> Lumagen audio out > AVR
> All HDMI cables are Blue Jeans. Shorter cables between components and Lumagen are BJC Belden Series-FE. In-wall from Lumagen video out to JVC RS620 is a 16' BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable.
> 
> When I powered everything up the Roku defaulted to "auto" detect display type. Prior it had been manually set to 4k60p HDR. I also changed the UB900 to "auto" detect so I can use an input memory to force the UB900 to send 1080p for blu rays to see the Lumagen upscaling.
> 
> The dropouts look like handshaking issues and occur mostly after a source change from watching HDR content (SDR2020 to projector w/HDR flag) back to SDR709 (like returning to the menu on the ROku from HDR content). I did have a dropout watching non-HDR 4k content on the ROku as well.
> 
> I changed the Roku and the UB900 back to manually select 4k60p HDR display type as I thought maybe something was happening in HDMI that resulted in an erroneous re-negotiation of the display type or something as it was set to "auto" discover the display type - havent watched enough yet to know if that fixed it.
> 
> Any thoughts? I have had no dropouts or issues of any kind watching 4kHDR (or just 4k) in my system prior to adding the Lumagen. I am liking the DTM.
> 
> Thanks!


It´s almost every single time a cable issue. Make sure the cables are at least 2 meters (6 feet). Email Jim for the latest recommendations.


----------



## alex_t

Kris Deering said:


> I've reported a few scenes that have a sudden change of light and then back to Pat. He is working on something else at the moment and then will get to this. It is related to the frame adaptive update that fixed a different issue before. Frame adaptive is extremely new, so there were bound to be some tweaking needed. I've only seen the issue in a few movies and it sometimes it is noticeable and other times it is not. So far it is pretty rare. But hopefully he'll be able to find a solution. If it is bothering you enough, you can turn off frame adaptive in the HDR settings menu for the input.



Hello,


The issue appears several times in The mule and even with frame adaptive at OFF.


----------



## Kris Deering

alex_t said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've reported a few scenes that have a sudden change of light and then back to Pat. He is working on something else at the moment and then will get to this. It is related to the frame adaptive update that fixed a different issue before. Frame adaptive is extremely new, so there were bound to be some tweaking needed. I've only seen the issue in a few movies and it sometimes it is noticeable and other times it is not. So far it is pretty rare. But hopefully he'll be able to find a solution. If it is bothering you enough, you can turn off frame adaptive in the HDR settings menu for the input.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> The issue appears several times in The mule and even with frame adaptive at OFF.
Click to expand...

I’ll have to pick that one up to look. Do you have repeatable time stamps? I’ve never seen flicker that is tone map related that doesn’t have to do with frame adaptive. Are you sure it wasn’t related to something else like dynamic contrast enabled?


----------



## Des511

I’ve seen is on the 4k digital version of Hobbs and Shaw and the UHD of the original Hellboy. 
Nothing has changed in my set up since the last up date. I’ve reverted back to the last update.


----------



## alex_t

Kris Deering said:


> I’ll have to pick that one up to look. Do you have repeatable time stamps? I’ve never seen flicker that is tone map related that doesn’t have to do with frame adaptive. Are you sure it wasn’t related to something else like dynamic contrast enabled?



Hello, I'm sure it is not related to dynamic contrast since all this kind of feature is at off in my setup. I did not write down the time stamps but it appears several times at the beginning of the film, I would say every 5mn then it decreased after a while (maybe every 15mn). It was the 1st time I watched this film. So I cannot tell you if with previous Radiance pro firmware the behaviour would had the same. Issue was also with frame adaptive at off. Actually I'm wondering if the issue can come from the film encoding itself ??? Unfortunately I have only one setup to watch HDR so I cannot check myself.


----------



## giomania

dgkula said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> I was looking for some feedback please. Last night I put a Lumagen 4242 in my chain and have been experiencing some dropouts. Prior to the Lumagen I had no dropouts.
> 
> 
> 
> Prior chain:
> 
> Roku Premier Plus > Denon X4300 AVR > HDFury Integral 2 > JVC RS620
> 
> Panasonic UB900 > Denon X4300 AVR > HDFury Integral 2 > JVC RS620
> 
> All HDMI cables are Blue Jeans. Shorter cables between components and AVR & Integral 2 to JVC at projector are BJC Belden Series-FE. In-wall from AVR to Integral 2 is a 16' BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable.
> 
> 
> 
> New chain:
> 
> Panasonic UB900 > Lumagen input 1 > Lumagen video out > JVC RS620
> 
> Roku Premier Plus > Lumagen input 3 > Lumagen video out >JVC RS620
> 
> Lumagen audio out > AVR
> 
> All HDMI cables are Blue Jeans. Shorter cables between components and Lumagen are BJC Belden Series-FE. In-wall from Lumagen video out to JVC RS620 is a 16' BJC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable.
> 
> 
> 
> When I powered everything up the Roku defaulted to "auto" detect display type. Prior it had been manually set to 4k60p HDR. I also changed the UB900 to "auto" detect so I can use an input memory to force the UB900 to send 1080p for blu rays to see the Lumagen upscaling.
> 
> 
> 
> The dropouts look like handshaking issues and occur mostly after a source change from watching HDR content (SDR2020 to projector w/HDR flag) back to SDR709 (like returning to the menu on the ROku from HDR content). I did have a dropout watching non-HDR 4k content on the ROku as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I changed the Roku and the UB900 back to manually select 4k60p HDR display type as I thought maybe something was happening in HDMI that resulted in an erroneous re-negotiation of the display type or something as it was set to "auto" discover the display type - havent watched enough yet to know if that fixed it.
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts? I have had no dropouts or issues of any kind watching 4kHDR (or just 4k) in my system prior to adding the Lumagen. I am liking the DTM.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!




I know that many will say it is likely a cable issue, but I also use many shorter BJC Belden Series cables, and if all you did was insert the Radiance without setting it up, there are a lot of settings to go through. 

Check the document in my signature if you want an easier (than the manual) to follow set up guide.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## robinsj

Can anyone help advise me how to setup auto aspect, as I have a Sony 5000 projector, and a paladin dcr lense. I was under the impression it would auto change to fill the screen, instead of using the projectors stretch to do this, am I wrong?


----------



## darksets

robinsj said:


> Can anyone help advise me how to setup auto aspect, as I have a Sony 5000 projector, and a paladin dcr lense. I was under the impression it would auto change to fill the screen, instead of using the projectors stretch to do this, am I wrong?


I assume you have already set up the correct screen aspect ratio. Then go to MENU->Input->Options->Aspect Setup->Auto Aspect and turn it on. But it won't fill the screen if the source aspect ratio is not the same as your screen's.


----------



## audioguy

robinsj said:


> Can anyone help advise me how to setup auto aspect, as I have a Sony 5000 projector, and a paladin dcr lense. I was under the impression it would auto change to fill the screen, instead of using the projectors stretch to do this, am I wrong?



Auto Aspect does not necessarily fill the screen. It auto changes the image to fit what it should be. For example, if it sees a 16 x9 image, it will display a 16 x 9 image. Same for 2:35.


----------



## dgkula

giomania said:


> I know that many will say it is likely a cable issue, but I also use many shorter BJC Belden Series cables, and if all you did was insert the Radiance without setting it up, there are a lot of settings to go through.
> 
> Check the document in my signature if you want an easier (than the manual) to follow set up guide.
> 
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Just ran a RUIPRO 10m fiber active cable and all the problems are gone. I really thought the BJC Belden Serie 1E was certified when I put two 15' cables in the wall from rack to RS620  Swapping out is going to be a PITA - the RUIPRO may be dangling against the wall for a while …

The DTM is really nice - watched Mad Max Fury Road tonight. Wow!


----------



## JOE-C

gattorodolfo said:


> good morning to all, with the last update known in some films of fast light variations, it suddenly drops then returns as before, this only with values ​​of dtm 1,2,3,4,5, with 6 less with 7 or 8 all is well. have you noticed this too? .
> 
> regards


I watched the new MIB on 4K UHD disc a few nights ago and the light output variations happened throughout the whole movie.
At first I thought it was the laser dimming on the JVC 4500 or maybe my cables or Blu-ray player so I tried changing them to no avail.
I tried a few other movies and they played with no issues.
Then I came here to read that it was an issue with the latest firmware.
As MIB has a lot of black/ white scene changes it may be a good one for Jim to check out as he makes changes to the DTM.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

JOE-C said:


> Then I came here to read that it was an issue with the latest firmware.


Just quoting this after my comments last week about why I wait for a week or so after a firmware update.  I'm sure it'll get sorted out, but given the small amount of time I have for actually watching films at the weekend (verses messing about with updates), I'll stay on my current version a while longer.


----------



## audioguy

dgkula said:


> Just ran a RUIPRO 10m fiber active cable and all the problems are gone. I really thought the BJC Belden Serie 1E was certified when I put two 15' cables in the wall from rack to RS620  Swapping out is going to be a PITA - the RUIPRO may be dangling against the wall for a while …
> 
> The DTM is really nice - watched Mad Max Fury Road tonight. Wow!



I had to switch from a BJC "certified" cable as well and moved to the same cable you are using. Works flawlessly.


----------



## dlinsley

*Calman and P3 measurements?*

Are there other steps to setting up Calman to measure P3, other than in Calman selecting DCI-P3, D65, 2.4 gamma and CMS1? My projector is the JVC RS3000 and when I measure for BT2020 I get great saturation sweeps until the limits of the gamut (with the filter and high lamp I'm getting 72% of BT2020). However, when I set Calman for P3 I get good results at the extremities (measuring 97% of volume) and D65, but the sweeps are way off except in yellow. Looks like user error, unless there is a bug in Calman 2018 - I've had the enthusiast license since 2011, but didn't take them up on their "offer" to move to Ultimate.

Thanks!


----------



## robinsj

darksets said:


> I assume you have already set up the correct screen aspect ratio. Then go to MENU->Input->Options->Aspect Setup->Auto Aspect and turn it on. But it won't fill the screen if the source aspect ratio is not the same as your screen's.


I guess I just thought for 2.35 material. It would change to fill my 2.35 screen, instead of using the squish/stretch of the projector.


----------



## darksets

robinsj said:


> I guess I just thought for 2.35 material. It would change to fill my 2.35 screen, instead of using the squish/stretch of the projector.


They have a feature called NLS (Non-linear stretch) which I think you can combine with auto aspect. I don't use that feature so I can't confirm but according to the manual you can enable it this way:

MENU → Input → In Configs → [Resolution] → [#] → Size → [Aspect Ratio] → NLStretch


----------



## dgkula

Has anyone compared Lumagen's scaling of blu ray media (e.g. 1080/24) to 4k to the scaling performed by current players (e.g. Panasonic UB900)?

I set a memory with custom output to force the edid the player sees (set on automatic) to deliver 1080/24 to the Lumagen which scales to 4k60 (I think I can get it to scale to 4k24 but ran out of time). I tried to compare with setting the UB900 output to 4k which delivers 4k to the Lumagen and dint see much difference.

Has anyone done this comparison and is it worth having the Lumagen do the upscaling vs the player?

Thanks!


----------



## dinamigym

robinsj said:


> I guess I just thought for 2.35 material. It would change to fill my 2.35 screen, instead of using the squish/stretch of the projector.




I have a 5000 and auto aspect plus NLS active. Always fills my 2.35 screen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## robinsj

dinamigym said:


> I have a 5000 and auto aspect plus NLS active. Always fills my 2.35 screen



Do you use a anamorphic lense like the Panamorph Paladin Dcr? I have just been going by the setup steps from them, which switches between aspect ratios on the projector, to show 16:9 and 2.35 material. Am I supposed to just switch the aspect ratio back to normal on the projector, then let the lumagen switch between the aspects to fill the screen through the anamorphic lens?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

When I'm switching content on the appletv sometimes when I'm switching to 4k the screen blanks out so long my receiver swtiches inputs as it thinks there's no picture. then I have to switch the input back to the appletv. 

Is there any setting on the lumagen you think I can change to fix this?


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> When I'm switching content on the appletv sometimes when I'm switching to 4k the screen blanks out so long my receiver swtiches inputs as it thinks there's no picture. then I have to switch the input back to the appletv.
> 
> Is there any setting on the lumagen you think I can change to fix this?


Sounds more likely to be (at root) an issue with the AVR. Changing inputs through lack of signal isn't a typical behaviour. I'd have thought you must have an auto select option enabled. The Lumagen also has such an option (disabled by default), though it sounds like you're sure it is the AVR switching and not the Lumagen, so probably not relevant. 

You can do things to the Lumagen output to prevent or reduce delays on source mode / input changes, mostly by making it remove the mode changes (a fixed output mode such as 4K60) and / or disabling genlock mode / rate matching in the Lumagen. However they are all compromises on correct frame cadence - some folk don't mind the compromises. If you are noting the delays on input switching, and have 18G input cards, you can put frequently switched devices on different 18G cards - the 18G cards only keep one input active at a time, which means switching between inputs on a card takes a bit longer than switching between cards where the right per card input is already selected.

Just a side note, the AppleTV doesn't change between 1080p and 4k except for when you go into the settings menu and change the resolution yourself. The AppleTV always keeps the resolution at what you set in that menu, and only varies the refresh rate and dynamic range / gamma to match the content if you have "Match Rate" and "Match Dynamic Range" enabled in the AppleTV menu. It also changes the pixel formats (between 420, 422, 444 and RGB) to make sure it is outputting a legal format for the given refresh rate and dynamic range / HDR type.


----------



## dinamigym

robinsj said:


> Do you use a anamorphic lense like the Panamorph Paladin Dcr? I have just been going by the setup steps from them, which switches between aspect ratios on the projector, to show 16:9 and 2.35 material. Am I supposed to just switch the aspect ratio back to normal on the projector, then let the lumagen switch between the aspects to fill the screen through the anamorphic lens?


Unfortunately I do not. I use the standard 5000 lens only. I setup the 5000 in the "normal" aspect ratio mode and never touch again. All the content resizing is done in the lumagen which is setup per their instructions. I know some prefer to watch content in its original aspect ratio. My screen is a Stewart Studiotek 100 fixed and I prefer to always fill the screen.


----------



## tcramer

I am having an odd issue I believe could be caused by the Lumagen. For reference, my 4K sources into the Lumagen are a Roku Ultra, Oppo 203, Kaleidescape and Chromecast Ultra. The Lumagen then feeds video to a Sony 5000 projector via a Ruipro HDMI cable and audio to a Trinnov. I tried one additional cable to the projector so I do not believe that is the cause.

When watching HDR sources, there will be occasional video blips of about 1 second where the screen just freezes. The audio remains perfect throughout, so there is something in the video only with this problem. It then picks up and is fine before doing it again, sometimes a few seconds or minutes later. I have seen this on all 4 of my 4K sources, so it does not seem to be source, cable or input specific either. Oddly, it seems to get worse if I pause or rewind and play again. 

I have tried a few different firmware versions, currently on the most recent, and have seen it on all of them. Any ideas on this one? See the stutter at 3 and 9 seconds in the below.





 -


----------



## audioguy

I'm no expert on these matters, but since I have a Lumagen and an Oppo 203, and a Nvidia Shield and an AppleTV and a Trinnov and the same HDMI cable to my JVC RS4500 projector that you do, and this movie, and I don't have this issue (nor have I on any version of the Lumagen firmware), I am betting it is NOT the Lumagen. My first guess would always be the HDMI cables used from source to Lumagen (and Lumagen to Trinnov) . Are they all over 6 feet long as recommended by Lumagen? It was recommended to me to use *THESE * by more than one calibrator.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

gadgetfreaky said:


> When I'm switching content on the appletv sometimes when I'm switching to 4k the screen blanks out so long my receiver swtiches inputs as it thinks there's no picture. then I have to switch the input back to the appletv.
> 
> Is there any setting on the lumagen you think I can change to fix this?


I had all sorts of funny issues like this with my Apple TV 4k (Radiance Pro and Sony VW5000). A friend said his issues went away when he got the following HDMI cable for his Apple TV 4k (which Apple sells on its website as the cable to use with the ATV4k). So I got this cable and presto, no issues anymore. Try it!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075N83B9X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Kris Deering

tcramer said:


> I am having an odd issue I believe could be caused by the Lumagen. For reference, my 4K sources into the Lumagen are a Roku Ultra, Oppo 203, Kaleidescape and Chromecast Ultra. The Lumagen then feeds video to a Sony 5000 projector via a Ruipro HDMI cable and audio to a Trinnov. I tried one additional cable to the projector so I do not believe that is the cause.
> 
> When watching HDR sources, there will be occasional video blips of about 1 second where the screen just freezes. The audio remains perfect throughout, so there is something in the video only with this problem. It then picks up and is fine before doing it again, sometimes a few seconds or minutes later. I have seen this on all 4 of my 4K sources, so it does not seem to be source, cable or input specific either. Oddly, it seems to get worse if I pause or rewind and play again.
> 
> I have tried a few different firmware versions, currently on the most recent, and have seen it on all of them. Any ideas on this one? See the stutter at 3 and 9 seconds in the below.
> 
> I added a video here -


Sounds like you took the Lumagen out of the loop and it worked fine, but did you take the Trinnov out and try it? Leave the Lumagen plugged to the display and unplug the cable going to the Trinnov. Does the same issue happen now? The HDMI boards on the Trinnov have known issues that have caused issues with the Lumagen before. Does your Trinnov have the upgraded HDMI board and the latest microcode running?

If that doesn't work you could try to run the "reduce output" that is specifically for the 5000ES in the Lumagen. Or you could change your output to 9GHz, which is recommended by Lumagen for 5000's anyways. There is a history of issues with the 5000ES HDMI input. Also, make sure you are using INPUT 2 on the Sony, it is more stable than 1.


----------



## tcramer

Kris Deering said:


> Sounds like you took the Lumagen out of the loop and it worked fine, but did you take the Trinnov out and try it? Leave the Lumagen plugged to the display and unplug the cable going to the Trinnov. Does the same issue happen now? The HDMI boards on the Trinnov have known issues that have caused issues with the Lumagen before. Does your Trinnov have the upgraded HDMI board and the latest microcode running?
> 
> If that doesn't work you could try to run the "reduce output" that is specifically for the 5000ES in the Lumagen. Or you could change your output to 9GHz, which is recommended by Lumagen for 5000's anyways. There is a history of issues with the 5000ES HDMI input. Also, make sure you are using INPUT 2 on the Sony, it is more stable than 1.


Thanks Kris (and others who responded). I also emailed Jim at Lumagen and he provided some suggestions too, along the line with yours Kris.

My calibrator had set HDMI to 444 out so I think that was biggest issue here as the Lumagen was outputting everything as 59.94 Hz and 444. It was just odd how it worked fine other than the occasional drop out for the past year or so, up to the past couple months. He’ll be coming back at some point in the near future to do some Trinnov updates, so I’ll make sure he checks everything at that point. I had not tried it with the Trinnov out of the equation. Input 2 on the Sony has always been used as well.

I was able to change it to “Reduce Max” and it seemed to work with 18 GHz auto alright. As Jim suggested, I went ahead and dropped it to the 9 GHz auto setting and with some testing last night, I did not have any of the dropouts. I guess if I am not losing anything with it set to 9 GHz, I’ll leave it. I was concerned there would be a negative PQ impact of either losing HDR or WCG with that, but if you guys all suggest it with the 5000, obviously that is not the case. 

I will give this a try for the near future and see if any issues pop up again.


----------



## Kris Deering

tcramer said:


> Thanks Kris (and others who responded). I also emailed Jim at Lumagen and he provided some suggestions too, along the line with yours Kris.
> 
> My calibrator had set HDMI to 444 out so I think that was biggest issue here as the Lumagen was outputting everything as 59.94 Hz and 444. It was just odd how it worked fine other than the occasional drop out for the past year or so, up to the past couple months. He’ll be coming back at some point in the near future to do some Trinnov updates, so I’ll make sure he checks everything at that point. I had not tried it with the Trinnov out of the equation. Input 2 on the Sony has always been used as well.
> 
> I was able to change it to “Reduce Max” and it seemed to work with 18 GHz auto alright. As Jim suggested, I went ahead and dropped it to the 9 GHz auto setting and with some testing last night, I did not have any of the dropouts. I guess if I am not losing anything with it set to 9 GHz, I’ll leave it. I was concerned there would be a negative PQ impact of either losing HDR or WCG with that, but if you guys all suggest it with the 5000, obviously that is not the case.
> 
> I will give this a try for the near future and see if any issues pop up again.


Have absolutely zero idea why anyone that knows how to setup a Lumagen would have set the output to 444. Glad that was discovered and resolved. You could try reduce output before 9GHZ if you'd like, but the 9GHZ output works just fine too and typically causes far less issues with the 5000ES. Hope you get to the bottom of it!


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> tcramer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Kris (and others who responded). I also emailed Jim at Lumagen and he provided some suggestions too, along the line with yours Kris.
> 
> My calibrator had set HDMI to 444 out so I think that was biggest issue here as the Lumagen was outputting everything as 59.94 Hz and 444. It was just odd how it worked fine other than the occasional drop out for the past year or so, up to the past couple months. Heâ€™️ll be coming back at some point in the near future to do some Trinnov updates, so Iâ€™️ll make sure he checks everything at that point. I had not tried it with the Trinnov out of the equation. Input 2 on the Sony has always been used as well.
> 
> I was able to change it to â€œReduce Maxâ€ and it seemed to work with 18 GHz auto alright. As Jim suggested, I went ahead and dropped it to the 9 GHz auto setting and with some testing last night, I did not have any of the dropouts. I guess if I am not losing anything with it set to 9 GHz, Iâ€™️ll leave it. I was concerned there would be a negative PQ impact of either losing HDR or WCG with that, but if you guys all suggest it with the 5000, obviously that is not the case.
> 
> I will give this a try for the near future and see if any issues pop up again.
> 
> 
> 
> Have absolutely zero idea why anyone that knows how to setup a Lumagen would have set the output to 444. Glad that was discovered and resolved. You could try reduce output before 9GHZ if you'd like, but the 9GHZ output works just fine too and typically causes far less issues with the 5000ES. Hope you get to the bottom of it!
Click to expand...

Reduce max throws a centered vertical green line when I try it with my 5000 - I reported it some time ago...


----------



## stefanop

thrang said:


> Reduce max throws a centered vertical green line when I try it with my 5000 - I reported it some time ago...


I reported it, too. Same behavior


----------



## tcramer

thrang said:


> Reduce max throws a centered vertical green line when I try it with my 5000 - I reported it some time ago...





stefanop said:


> I reported it, too. Same behavior


I did not see it right away but interestingly enough, I was curious last night, turned it on and had the same thing. I'll report it as well.

I assume you guys are just using 9 GHz auto with your 5000's as well then?


----------



## stefanop

tcramer said:


> I did not see it right away but interestingly enough, I was curious last night, turned it on and had the same thing. I'll report it as well.
> 
> I assume you guys are just using 9 GHz auto with your 5000's as well then?


I did all combinations and the green line was ever in the middle. Actually it's all set to 18GHz.


----------



## Bytehoven

Could someone comment or send me a PM regarding what is involved in adding another input pair to the 4240? Thanks

Edit... I chatted with Jim by phone and got the info I needed. Thanks Jim.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

For those others wanting to know how hard it is to add another input to a 4240 the answer is it is simple. Order the module from your dealer then take lid off scaler, undo the screws holding the blanking plate in place and fit the extra module. Reverse the above procedure to refit lid. Done. This should be done in anti-static environment but other than that it is extremely simple if you have the right size screwdriver.


----------



## LJG

I was sent the advance release of the new HLG DTM and it looks fantastic. Now that DTV has a full slate of 4K HDR live sporting events this is very timely. Great work Pat and Jim


----------



## audioguy

Not sure where to post this but I will try here. We watched the beginning of the new season of Jack Ryan on Amazon, and I could never determine what the correct aspect ratio was supposed to be. Using the Lumagen remote, I never could find one that worked. It appears to be 16x9 but with black bars on the top. I tried every other option in the remote and non worked.

Has anyone else had this issue?


----------



## netroamer

audioguy said:


> Not sure where to post this but I will try here. We watched the beginning of the new season of Jack Ryan on Amazon, and I could never determine what the correct aspect ratio was supposed to be. Using the Lumagen remote, I never could find one that worked. It appears to be 16x9 but with black bars on the top. I tried every other option in the remote and non worked.
> 
> Has anyone else had this issue?



The correct aspect ratio is 2.00. The Lumagen can reproduce this AR. You can set this manually by pressing the "Alt" key then the 4.3 key.


----------



## LJG

netroamer said:


> The correct aspect ratio is 2.00. The Lumagen can reproduce this AR. You can set this manually by pressing the "Alt" key then the 4.3 key.


Correct the Lumagen AA nailed it @ 2.0, in fact I have seen movies on Kscape with the wrong Aspect Ratio listed on Kscape where the Lumagen got it correct. I've yet to see the Lumagen AA miss !!!!


----------



## audioguy

netroamer said:


> The correct aspect ratio is 2.00. The Lumagen can reproduce this AR. You can set this manually by pressing the "Alt" key then the 4.3 key.



Thanks. I looked at last season and it was a more typical aspect. I will try 2.00.


----------



## audioguy

LJG said:


> Correct the Lumagen AA nailed it @ 2.0, in fact I have seen movies on Kscape with the wrong Aspect Ratio listed on Kscape where the Lumagen got it correct. I've yet to see the Lumagen AA miss !!!!


Interesting - and thanks. I have AA enabled (I am pretty sure) and it did not select the proper aspect. I will need to re-check my settings and what I might have set in my projector.


----------



## bobof

There's quite a lot of 2.0 out there these days, lots of series on Netflix seemed to be being made in it. I quite like it for stuff like House of Cards etc. It's not a movie but it's also not football... 

Still love auto aspect. It works brilliantly these days; there is something totally magical about the presentation when you have masking coming in and out automatically to match the content. For me it is as important as any other feature on the Pro. 

The only thing I sometimes think "would be nice" in the icing-on-the-cake stakes is that when it detects a new aspect the aspect digitally switches immediately, but in the case where you have motorised masks they obviously take some amount of time to move out of the way. In my case I have a top / bottom masking screen and when going from a wider ratio to a narrower one you get overspill onto the frame. It would be nice to be able to somehow control the digital unmasking of the image to (more or less) sync with the motor travel speed; this would give a super-clean presentation. If you have side masks you have the opposite issue, going from narrow to wider.

It's in the realms of not even being a first world problem, but would be pretty special to offer.


----------



## gwthacker

bobof said:


> There's quite a lot of 2.0 out there these days, lots of series on Netflix seemed to be being made in it. I quite like it for stuff like House of Cards etc. It's not a movie but it's also not football...
> 
> .



Yeah here’s some info on the 2.0 usage. And there have been more since this article. 

https://vashivisuals.com/the-hot-new-filmmaking-aspect-ratio/




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

^^ Fascinating. I had no clue!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

LJG said:


> Correct the Lumagen AA nailed it @ 2.0, in fact I have seen movies on Kscape with the wrong Aspect Ratio listed on Kscape where the Lumagen got it correct. I've yet to see the Lumagen AA miss !!!!


Same for me. Radiance Pro's auto aspect is great in particular for so much 2.0 stuff these days on streaming.


----------



## mskreis

I’ve never played with the AA feature. Is there any benefit if I have a 16x9 screen and don’t mask or have an external lens?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

JOE-C said:


> I watched the new MIB on 4K UHD disc a few nights ago and the light output variations happened throughout the whole movie.
> At first I thought it was the laser dimming on the JVC 4500 or maybe my cables or Blu-ray player so I tried changing them to no avail.
> I tried a few other movies and they played with no issues.
> Then I came here to read that it was an issue with the latest firmware.
> As MIB has a lot of black/ white scene changes it may be a good one for Jim to check out as he makes changes to the DTM.


I've only had a chance to watch " Shaun Of The Dead " and " Yesterday " on 4K. I have not seen this issue with either title.


----------



## bobof

mskreis said:


> I’ve never played with the AA feature. Is there any benefit if I have a 16x9 screen and don’t mask or have an external lens?


If you have a 16:9 screen and don't have any masking then the main use you can put it to is making wider than 16:9 content "auto zoom" to fill the screen height.

I _think_ you might also be able to set it up to shift scope images to the bottom of the screen instead of being in the middle, which can minimize the appearance of the scope bars (you tend not to notice the top bar so much if the bottom one is gone). It can also make it quite cheap to do DIY masking - if you shift scope content to the bottom of the screen you only need a motorised black rollerblind to do an inexpensive masking system. I say think as I've not tried setting that up (as my screen does mask top and bottom).


----------



## thebland

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Same for me. Radiance Pro's auto aspect is great in particular for so much 2.0 stuff these days on streaming.


Which setting is preferred? I was going to go through some settings today’s and wanted to check this out. 

HDMI (only) or HDMI plus Image based auto aspect? Thanks.


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> Which setting is preferred? I was going to go through some settings today’s and wanted to check this out.
> 
> HDMI (only) or HDMI plus Image based auto aspect? Thanks.


The (fairly recently added) image only works better often. Some set top boxes send unhelpful things in the HDMI signalling which will prevent the auto aspect working right on that source.

You'll always (I believe) want to have Image enabled. Most of the useful AA detection comes from the Image analysis which looks at the frame and figures out if you're likely looking at a change of aspect.


----------



## SJHT

bobof said:


> If you have a 16:9 screen and don't have any masking then the main use you can put it to is making wider than 16:9 content "auto zoom" to fill the screen height.
> 
> I _think_ you might also be able to set it up to shift scope images to the bottom of the screen instead of being in the middle, which can minimize the appearance of the scope bars (you tend not to notice the top bar so much if the bottom one is gone). It can also make it quite cheap to do DIY masking - if you shift scope content to the bottom of the screen you only need a motorised black rollerblind to do an inexpensive masking system. I say think as I've not tried setting that up (as my screen does mask top and bottom).


That’s what I do. I have both a retractable screen and a second retractable mask all hidden in a soffit. My control system reads the aspect ratio and takes appropriate action. All completely automated. For 2.4, moves the image to the bottom and triggers the down masking system. For 1.85, uses AA to fill to 16:9. When I’m watching a Kscape 2.4 movie and go back to the movie titles screen, it switches back to 16:9 and raises the mask. Gives me the maximum screen size as we watch a lot of sports, play games, etc. as well as movies. SJ


----------



## dgkula

Looking for some feedback on settings. Watched Shazam yesterday evening and found some scenes much too bright.

I have a JVC RS620 at 10' from a Stewart ST100 screen in a batcave. A light meter from Amazon reads 154 nits to the screen in HDR high-lamp mode with iris wide open.

I have set Display Max Light at 890 nits, Dpad at 4 and Low Set Ratio I have been switching between 15 - 24. Seems like lower numbers bring down the highs. I have also changed Brightness in the projector to -3 to try and get better contrast.

DTM looks very good but some scenes are pretty bright (the Meg is a bright movie, Shazam, etc). Any feedback on what to tune? Thx


----------



## LJG

thebland said:


> Which setting is preferred? I was going to go through some settings today’s and wanted to check this out.
> 
> HDMI (only) or HDMI plus Image based auto aspect? Thanks.


Image only


----------



## OMARDRIS

*Direct Selection of CMS memory in LightSpace*

Hi @All Radiance Pro users who also use LightSpace

Light Illusion has implemented a long-cherished wish of mine and many others for the Radiance Pro. 
In LightSpace you can now directly select and switch the CMS memory (CMS0 - CMS7) of Radiance. 

I just tested the beta version and it works fine, so the function can be integrated into the next release.
The selection of the CMS memory in LightSpace is done in the option menu for Radiance Pro:










I think this new feature is helpful because you don't have to look for the Radiance Pro remote control anymore just to switch the CMS memory. 

Light Illusion supports a lot of devices with LightSpace and has countless interfaces to maintain. Therefore not every wish can be fulfilled immediately.
Nevertheless, Steve Shaw and his team still have an open ear for ideas and suggestions from the circle of users. This is not the case everywhere and it makes working with Light Illusion so enjoyable and productive. 
Peter


----------



## Des511

Watching Netflix from the Apple 4k box through the Lumagen to my JVC NX7 projector and I’m getting what seems like a slight stutter every now and again. Anyone else getting something like this?


----------



## Kris Deering

Des511 said:


> Watching Netflix from the Apple 4k box through the Lumagen to my JVC NX7 projector and I’m getting what seems like a slight stutter every now and again. Anyone else getting something like this?


I got this exact same issue watching "The King" last night on Netflix. I will talk with Lumagen about it today.


----------



## Kris Deering

Update on the frame dropping/stutter with Netflix. I tested the same movie with my OLED downstairs playing directly from my ATV4K. Same stutter. So it looks like Netflix is doing some kind of frame rate conversion (output is 23.976) or something else is going on. But Radiance doesn't look to be the culprit.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Update on the frame dropping/stutter with Netflix. I tested the same movie with my OLED downstairs playing directly from my ATV4K. Same stutter. So it looks like Netflix is doing some kind of frame rate conversion (output is 23.976) or something else is going on. But Radiance doesn't look to be the culprit.


I've not tried that title, and I'm not sure if it is this issue you are seeing, but note that some Netflix content is 24.00p - which the AppleTV cannot output at native framerate - it has to output at 23.976p which means a dropped frame every 42s or so. It has a similar issue with 60p vs 59.94p, but 60p content is very uncommon.

There are some test streams in the Netflix library for all the rates that you can check - search "Test Patterns" from the search UI. 

Some recent titles that are affected:
El Camino: A Breaking Bad Movie
Dolemite Is My Name
Bird Box
Triple Frontier
Murder Mystery
Dark
Shaft
Sand Castle
The Red Sea Diving Resort
Dark Tourist

Samsung UHD players do correctly switch to 24.00p output for the above, so if you have one of those then you can check the title in question and look at the output; if it switches to 24.00p then you know why the AppleTV is dropping frames.
Sony players also switch if configured to do so, but only for 23.976 vs 24p. Everything else is played back at 59.94p, including 25p (which is pretty tragic looking).

The only option if you have to use an AppleTV that minimizes the stutter is (rather counter intuitively) to disable rate matching. This converts 24.00p to 59.94p and your eye will usually lose the dropped frames necessary because the cadence is already ruined by the 3:2 pulldown that just occasionally changes to 2:2 for 24.00p content.

Unfortunately on the AppleTV even the Developer HUD won't accurately tell you the framerate for most streaming content so you have to try another player that is known to behave itself if you want to be sure this is the issue.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I've not tried that title, and I'm not sure if it is this issue you are seeing, but note that some Netflix content is 24.00p - which the AppleTV cannot output at native framerate - it has to output at 23.976p which means a dropped frame every 42s or so. It has a similar issue with 60p vs 59.94p, but 60p content is very uncommon.
> 
> There are some test streams in the Netflix library for all the rates that you can check - search "Test Patterns" from the search UI.
> 
> Some recent titles that are affected:
> El Camino: A Breaking Bad Movie
> Dolemite Is My Name
> Bird Box
> Triple Frontier
> Murder Mystery
> Dark
> Shaft
> Sand Castle
> The Red Sea Diving Resort
> Dark Tourist
> 
> Samsung UHD players do correctly switch to 24.00p output for the above, so if you have one of those then you can check the title in question and look at the output; if it switches to 24.00p then you know why the AppleTV is dropping frames.
> Sony players also switch if configured to do so, but only for 23.976 vs 24p. Everything else is played back at 59.94p, including 25p (which is pretty tragic looking).
> 
> The only option if you have to use an AppleTV that minimizes the stutter is (rather counter intuitively) to disable rate matching. This converts 24.00p to 59.94p and your eye will usually lose the dropped frames necessary because the cadence is already ruined by the 3:2 pulldown that just occasionally changes to 2:2 for 24.00p content.
> 
> Unfortunately on the AppleTV even the Developer HUD won't accurately tell you the framerate for most streaming content so you have to try another player that is known to behave itself if you want to be sure this is the issue.


Well that explains it, thanks! Output for The King, which is a Netflix original movie, is 23.976 when you check it on the Radiance. So definitely an issue with that one and why I see it on the OLED as well. I bought a Roku Ultra about a week ago to test as I wanted to see if I can find a workaround for the ATV problem of changing metadata constantly with DV content. The Roku didn't have this problem but it also didn't support Atmos from Netflix of Apple content (they have the Apple TV app to access your iTunes library), so it wasn't the solution I was hoping for. Feels like every single streaming box solution has a gotcha. Frustrating.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Well that explains it, thanks! Output for The King, which is a Netflix original movie, is 23.976 when you check it on the Radiance. So definitely an issue with that one and why I see it on the OLED as well. I bought a Roku Ultra about a week ago to test as I wanted to see if I can find a workaround for the ATV problem of changing metadata constantly with DV content. The Roku didn't have this problem but it also didn't support Atmos from Netflix of Apple content (they have the Apple TV app to access your iTunes library), so it wasn't the solution I was hoping for. Feels like every single streaming box solution has a gotcha. Frustrating.


I'll check that title later on my Samsung to be sure as I'm interested in this issue, as not all Netflix originals are affected, but I think that because they're no longer constrained to having to have an NTSC release (the reason for the 23.976p rate in the first place) a lot of post places aren't converting the 24.00p package to 23.976p any more.

I didn't think the Roku could correctly support 24.00p, but I could certainly be wrong there. 

It has become a pet annoyance of mine. Apple even have a few 24.00p titles in the itunes library that don't play back properly. Highlander 30th Anniversary is one such title. 

The Samsung UHD player is pretty faultless in Netflix were it not for the lack of Atmos streaming. I might pick up a new Shield to try that again, but their "auto" framerate isn't as yet auto and and relies on a 3rd party app to do full auto framerate switching. plus there are bugs with correct colourspace output for HDR vs SDR content. 

As you say, it is generally very frustrating. You can't help but feel that these video players really should start with the basics, like, errr, playing video properly... before moving on to other trivia. Such is the world we live in that expecting video to play properly gets you branded some sort of unreasonable fanatic in some of the threads on here!


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Well that explains it, thanks! Output for The King, which is a Netflix original movie, is 23.976 when you check it on the Radiance.


Just checked, here it is output from the Samsung UHD player. Confirmed for certain as a 24.00p title, so "expected behaviour" on current AppleTV 
Add it to the list of annoyances with AppleTV playback, along with stupid metadata for some DV content. Maybe they'll fix it one day - though perhaps it needs new hardware.


----------



## jorgebetancourt

need to get a lumagen for my 640 eventually.. Just redid my room so need to save money for next year..


----------



## thrang

I'm also experiencing occasional micro stutters, through from a Kaliesdcape Strato to the Radiance (4k/HDR titles). Very difficult to track down, as its not repeatable or consistent - even on the same titles.

Appears the Radiance gets a little glitchy occasionally for some reason. When I shutdown the system and check again later in the day or a following day, it likely won't be there. I've also seen occasional glitchiness as slightly fuzzed/distorted video, color mis-mapping, and heavy banding. Power cycling the Radiance clears these glitches, so I'm suspecting the micro stutter every few minutes in my case may fall under the same umbrella...

I'm also seeing a lot of brightness changes with DTM, so hoping that gets fixed soon.


----------



## A7mad78

thrang said:


> I'm also experiencing occasional micro stutters, through from a Kaliesdcape Strato to the Radiance (4k/HDR titles). Very difficult to track down, as its not repeatable or consistent - even on the same titles.
> 
> 
> 
> Appears the Radiance gets a little glitchy occasionally for some reason. When I shutdown the system and check again later in the day or a following day, it likely won't be there. I've also seen occasional glitchiness as slightly fuzzed/distorted video, color mis-mapping, and heavy banding. Power cycling the Radiance clears these glitches, so I'm suspecting the micro stutter every few minutes in my case may fall under the same umbrella...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also seeing a lot of brightness changes with DTM, so hoping that gets fixed soon.




I agree with u about the brightness changes i notice this many time since last upgrade 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Des511

thrang said:


> I'm also experiencing occasional micro stutters, through from a Kaliesdcape Strato to the Radiance (4k/HDR titles). Very difficult to track down, as its not repeatable or consistent - even on the same titles.
> 
> Appears the Radiance gets a little glitchy occasionally for some reason. When I shutdown the system and check again later in the day or a following day, it likely won't be there. I've also seen occasional glitchiness as slightly fuzzed/distorted video, color mis-mapping, and heavy banding. Power cycling the Radiance clears these glitches, so I'm suspecting the micro stutter every few minutes in my case may fall under the same umbrella...
> 
> I'm also seeing a lot of brightness changes with DTM, so hoping that gets fixed soon.


I have the exact same thing happening regarding the micro stutters. I have being trying to solve it for the past few weeks and was about to contact the calibrator who supplied and calibrated it when I had to unplug it yesterday and the micro stutters have gone for now. Maybe it needs unplugging every now and then to get rid of the electrical build up inside.


----------



## thrang

Des511 said:


> I have the exact same thing happening regarding the micro stutters. I have being trying to solve it for the past few weeks and was about to contact the calibrator who supplied and calibrated it when I had to unplug it yesterday and the micro stutters have gone for now. Maybe it needs unplugging every now and then to get rid of the electrical build up inside.


It's far from certain, but at times I wonder if it happens after I access the Lumagen menu's rather heavily and make certain changes (to experiment with different options)...

If you notice calling up menus can often result in a slight micro-stutter of the live video behind the video... the issue is sort of like that...


----------



## Mike Garrett

Kris Deering said:


> Well that explains it, thanks! Output for The King, which is a Netflix original movie, is 23.976 when you check it on the Radiance. So definitely an issue with that one and why I see it on the OLED as well. I bought a Roku Ultra about a week ago to test as I wanted to see if I can find a workaround for the ATV problem of changing metadata constantly with DV content. The Roku didn't have this problem but it also didn't support Atmos from Netflix of Apple content (they have the Apple TV app to access your iTunes library), so it wasn't the solution I was hoping for. Feels like every single streaming box solution has a gotcha. Frustrating.


Roku is currently waiting on Netflix to implement atmos. That is all that is keeping Roku from having atmos on Netflix. Roku does do atmos on Amazon Prime.


----------



## dlinsley

Mike Garrett said:


> Roku is currently waiting on Netflix to implement atmos. That is all that is keeping Roku from having atmos on Netflix. Roku does do atmos on Amazon Prime.


Did Roku state that? That would be good news. It also works with Vudu - I have the Dolby demos still in my library before they made them unavailable to new customers.


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> Roku is currently waiting on Netflix to implement atmos. That is all that is keeping Roku from having atmos on Netflix. Roku does do atmos on Amazon Prime.


I think there is at least some old info in that table - Shield has Atmos in Netflix now. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


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## Kris Deering

A7mad78 said:


> I agree with u about the brightness changes i notice this many time since last upgrade
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The brightness changes are a known issue. Pat has been working on the HLG update and I was told he has a fix for the brightness changes as well. He is working on an updated FPGA to implement these changes so expect to see it pretty soon.


----------



## Eventidal

Good to hear! I hope the stutter while accessing the menu will be gone too!


----------



## A7mad78

Kris Deering said:


> The brightness changes are a known issue. Pat has been working on the HLG update and I was told he has a fix for the brightness changes as well. He is working on an updated FPGA to implement these changes so expect to see it pretty soon.




That’s great ..

Thank u Kris 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ShadeRF

Had to roll back to an earlier version last night while watching Men in Black International. I hadn't noticed too many of the brightness changes watching other films but it felt like a strobe show it was changing so much. Just paused about 25 minutes in and rolled back and all is good in the world. Hopefully the fix is out soon!


----------



## Bytehoven

I finally pulled the trigger and bought David's 4442. (Thanks Dave)

I'm diving into Giomania's reference guides. (thanks James)

I'd also welcome any tips for use with my x990 from other JVC/eshift users, so feel free to post or send me a PM to help me get my new box dialed in.

_"As your mother tells you, and my mother certainly told me, it is important, she always used to say, always to try new things."_ Hannibal Lecter

:grin:


----------



## bobof

Bytehoven said:


> I finally pulled the trigger and bought David's 4442. (Thanks Dave)
> 
> I'm diving into Giomania's reference guides. (thanks James)
> 
> I'd also welcome any tips for use with my x990 from other JVC/eshift users, so feel free to post or send me a PM to help me get my new box dialed in.
> 
> _"As your mother tells you, and my mother certainly told me, it is important, she always used to say, always to try new things."_ Hannibal Lecter


Do you have meters and LUT based calibration SW?


----------



## Bytehoven

bobof said:


> Do you have meters and LUT based calibration SW?


Chad did my initial setup (200ish hours) because I was totally unfamiliar with the nuances of HDR and the JVC eshift series.

I was considering having Chad return if/when I acquired a Lumagen Pro.

I have a Spyder 5 and an Extech light meter. My CalMan seat is way expired but I have HCFR I never used. So, not the preferred tools to get the best results.

I'm approaching 1400 hours on my 1st lamp, so I'm in the zone for a possible gamma droop touch up anyway. Or I could install and burn in my new lamp, recal and keep the current lamp as a back up.


----------



## Craig Peer

ShadeRF said:


> Had to roll back to an earlier version last night while watching Men in Black International. I hadn't noticed too many of the brightness changes watching other films but it felt like a strobe show it was changing so much. Just paused about 25 minutes in and rolled back and all is good in the world. Hopefully the fix is out soon!


Can you just install an earlier firmware version like normal ? I've never gone " backwards ", so these things are good to know.


----------



## ShadeRF

Craig Peer said:


> Can you just install an earlier firmware version like normal ? I've never gone " backwards ", so these things are good to know.


Ya, I just downloaded and ran the 092019 beta and installed as normal. It took about 5 minutes as I assume it had to rewrite the whole thing as opposed to a small piece when doing a forward update.


----------



## bobof

Bytehoven said:


> Chad did my initial setup (200ish hours) because I was totally unfamiliar with the nuances of HDR and the JVC eshift series.
> 
> I was considering having Chad return if/when I acquired a Lumagen Pro.
> 
> I have a Spyder 5 and an Extech light meter. My CalMan seat is way expired but I have HCFR I never used. So, not the preferred tools to get the best results.
> 
> I'm approaching 1400 hours on my 1st lamp, so I'm in the zone for a possible gamma droop touch up anyway. Or I could install and burn in my new lamp, recal and keep the current lamp as a back up.


IMHO for very best results you want a profile of your display in the modes you'll use for SDR and HDR in the most linear modes you can, converted into a REC709 3D LUT (BT1886 gamma) and a P3 3DLUT (2.4 gamma). These provide a "reference" base so then what you're looking at should be correct colour plus the excellent Lumagen tone mapping. In my experience to date Lightspace generates the best LUTs consistently. They've just added the ability to generate the 1D separate from the 3D which gives an extra level of accuracy.

My own X7900 doesn't reach REC709 gamut without the filter in, so I have two modes, both with the filter in place, but with the HDR mode having the iris more open than SDR (I use -9 for SDR and -3 for HDR currently). You can have the Lumagen switch the projector between modes (with some limitations) using the HDR gamma flag over HDMI (can only select certain modes), or you can do what I did and have some external control switch modes in the projector over IP or RS232. That allows you to pick user modes for HDR vs SDR signals. 

I use a bit of a hack that "works for me" which allows you to use profile off (the very most linear mode on a JVC, without colour management or even the gamma autocal) with the filter in place. This means my gamma droop is also corrected in the 1DLUT in the Lumagen.

Set up CMS0 set to REC709. CMS1 set to DCIP3. CMS1 with DTM enabled, DML to around 6x your max measured nits, low ratio set to make the effective nits = 2x the measured peak nits. I have DSAT set to 0, which is supposed to prevent / reduce colour desaturation hue shift. It presently doesn't fully do this, but there is an update in the works to fix the behaviour.

-

The above represents what I think is a "reference" calibration for a JVC with a Lumagen, but starting from zero. If you're just trying to use it with your existing calibration; assuming your REC709 cal is good you don't need to load a LUT for that. If the HDR mode calibration is also tracking right for REC2020, then you don't need a LUT for that either and can set the output for CMS1 to 2020SDR output (but with the HDR flag to switch modes) and set the gamma to be 2.4 gamma curve in the projector. Then tune the DTM parameters as above (DML, low ratio, DSAT).

Anyway, that's what I'd do. If you are usually in the capable hands of a calibrator then I'm sure either Chad or Kris could help you get set up remotely to a pretty good level until a calibration makes sense with lamp etc in consideration. Good luck!


----------



## Bytehoven

bobof said:


> IMHO for very best results you want a profile of your display in the modes you'll use for SDR and HDR in the most linear modes you can, converted into a REC709 3D LUT (BT1886 gamma) and a P3 3DLUT (2.4 gamma). These provide a "reference" base so then what you're looking at should be correct colour plus the excellent Lumagen tone mapping. In my experience to date Lightspace generates the best LUTs consistently. They've just added the ability to generate the 1D separate from the 3D which gives an extra level of accuracy.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> My own X7900 doesn't reach REC709 gamut without the filter in, so I have two modes, both with the filter in place, but with the HDR mode having the iris more open than SDR (I use -9 for SDR and -3 for HDR currently). You can have the Lumagen switch the projector between modes (with some limitations) using the HDR gamma flag over HDMI (can only select certain modes), or you can do what I did and have some external control switch modes in the projector over IP or RS232. That allows you to pick user modes for HDR vs SDR signals.
> 
> I use a bit of a hack that "works for me" which allows you to use profile off (the very most linear mode on a JVC, without colour management or even the gamma autocal) with the filter in place. This means my gamma droop is also corrected in the 1DLUT in the Lumagen.
> 
> Set up CMS0 set to REC709. CMS1 set to DCIP3. CMS1 with DTM enabled, DML to around 6x your max measured nits, low ratio set to make the effective nits = 2x the measured peak nits. I have DSAT set to 0, which is supposed to prevent / reduce colour desaturation hue shift. It presently doesn't fully do this, but there is an update in the works to fix the behaviour.
> 
> -
> 
> The above represents what I think is a "reference" calibration for a JVC with a Lumagen, but starting from zero. If you're just trying to use it with your existing calibration; assuming your REC709 cal is good you don't need to load a LUT for that. If the HDR mode calibration is also tracking right for REC2020, then you don't need a LUT for that either and can set the output for CMS1 to 2020SDR output (but with the HDR flag to switch modes) and set the gamma to be 2.4 gamma curve in the projector. Then tune the DTM parameters as above (DML, low ratio, DSAT).
> 
> Anyway, that's what I'd do. If you are usually in the capable hands of a calibrator then I'm sure either Chad or Kris could help you get set up remotely to a pretty good level until a calibration makes sense with lamp etc in consideration. Good luck!



I need to run this thru Google translate. :wink:

I can live without the automation, as it helps me stay better connected to what tech choices were/are being made. Once I get a few weeks, months away from the initial tech process by being insulated thru automation, my old brain forgets too much. But I will look into how to execute the IP connection.

My 1st follow up for the short term, what should be i thinking about with 2x 18g inputs and 2x 9g inputs? I will probably leave any 1080SDR devices routed thru the AVR. The 9g limitation is 4k60 420, correct?

A remote consultation sounds like a great idea until I can work out an onsite visit. Thanks. I'll definitely do my homework and experiment to make the most of that step.


----------



## bobof

Bytehoven said:


> [/Spoiler]
> 
> I need to run this thru Google translate. :wink:
> 
> I can live without the automation, as it helps me stay better connected to what tech choices were/are being made. Once I get a few weeks, months away from the initial tech process by being insulated thru automation, my old brain forgets too much. But I will look into how to execute the IP connection.
> 
> My 1st follow up for the short term, what should be i thinking about with 2x 18g inputs and 2x 9g inputs? I will probably leave any 1080SDR devices routed thru the AVR. The 9g limitation is 4k60 420, correct?
> 
> A remote consultation sounds like a great idea until I can work out an onsite visit. Thanks. I'll definitely do my homework and experiment to make the most of that step.


Hehe, professional calibrators certainly earn their money in terms of what they need to know (across how many different devices they calibrate) and the quality of equipment they use. At the end of the day if you are interested enough and prepared to invest in software and equipment you can make a very good go at it yourself, but given the amount of money on gear and time I have spent I sometimes doubt it was worth my own efforts.

I don't have any 9G inputs or outputs, but I believe that in general you probably want sources you'll watch HDR from routed through the 18G inputs if you can. This is because they sometimes will limit their HDR capabilities if they're not connected to an 18G input.

I usually have player device UIs set to SDR23.976p. This makes UI motion look worse, but is one of your only options to reduce blank times on the JVC units that doesn't come at a compromise to video quality. The other options (disabling rate match / genlock / converting everything to 59.94p) all result in not watching video as intended. If the JVC blank times don't worry you then set the player UIs to 59.94p and enjoy the smoother UI motion.

If you're wanting to colour correct your SDR sources connected to the AVR you'll need to route them to the Lumagen.

Note there are some devices that currently have the odd audio issues when routed through the Lumagen for Audio:
1) AppleTV4k dropped samples (resulting in clicks) in some DV titles that have changing metadata being output as HDR10. Can be every 5m05s or 0m30s depending on content (maybe other intervals).
2) Samsung UHD players skipping chapters can lose audio when playing bitstream HD audio.

Because of the above I have some sources connected to my AVR directly to avoid these audio issues.

My system is:

AppleTV
Samsung UHD player
Lumagen audio output
Connected to AVR ins

PC
Oppo player
Set top Box
AVR video output
Connected to Lumagen ins

JVC projector
Connected to Lumagen out.

You do ideally need some kind of a Harmony remote to manage the above as if you mistakenly leave the AVR connected to the Lumagen audio output and set the Lumagen to the AVR video output you'll likely create an HDCP loop and end up with no image (not even from the Lumagen OSD). So the above setup lets me watch devices that have known issues with audio via the Lumagen to bypass it for audio, but devices which don't seem to (like the Oppo player) connect directly to the Lumagen for the purest signal patch.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> My own X7900 doesn't reach REC709 gamut without the filter in


I guess you mean DCI-P3?


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I guess you mean DCI-P3?


No, I mean REC709.

It is not uncommon for JVC projector to fall short of 100% REC709 coverage without the filter in.
both samples of X7900 that I've had have been afflicted by this. I've had some previous generation units that have been closer to REC709 - my X3 was closest, and my X30 was a little bit shorter than the X3 (but better than the X7900.

They exceed it in the y direction but the green primary is rotated in hue about the neutral axis towards red in the x direction, so you have a gamut that is bigger in size than REC709 but can't actually cover all the colours in REC709. So the gamut can be claimed to be bigger than 100% REC709 but it isn't actually able to cover 100% REC709.

Those that are short of REC709 green due to being off-hue without the filter also won't be able to reach DCIP3 green with the filter.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> It is not uncommon for JVC projector to fall short of 100% REC709 coverage without the filter in.


I had no idea. Always thought you would only need the filter for DCI-P3/BT2020.


----------



## Mike Garrett

ShadeRF said:


> I have the 4240 so this isn't really an option for me. I guess I'm just going to have to look into a different player, and as you've mentioned preferably one that supports Atmos. *I've been a little peeved that the app on the Roku never received an update to do Atmos when Atmos is perfectly fine in other apps.*


The lack of atmos with Roku on Netflix is a Netflix problem, not Roku problem. Roku will have atmos as soon as Netflix sets it up.


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I had no idea. Always thought you would only need the filter for DCI-P3/BT2020.


It's more severe with low lamp, too. If you can use high lamp you'll be much closer to hitting it. Mine is very close in high lamp, less so in low lamp.


----------



## Roland Janus

*How does it work when using 3D with a Radiance Pro with a DCR lens?*

The problem is that 1080p has to be send out to the projector to even do 3D, but with 1080p the lense is squeezing the picture, making it smaller horizontally.
I think this is rather generic, but as Sony 5000 owner maybe there is something specific that can be done?


----------



## dlinsley

Roland Janus said:


> *How does it work when using 3D with a Radiance Pro with a DCR lens?*
> 
> The problem is that 1080p has to be send out to the projector to even do 3D, but with 1080p the lense is squeezing the picture, making it smaller horizontally.
> I think this is rather generic, but as Sony 5000 owner maybe there is something specific that can be done?


Can the Sony still scale to panel width? This is an issue on the 4k JVCs where even in Anamorphic C or D mode 3D scales up from 1920 to 3840, but not 4096 wide and so you are left with side bars. 

(On the JVC I'm still playing around with a second lens memory to zoom 3840 wide to fill the screen and on the Lumagen set a different aspect ratio to counteract using None/C/D mode on the JVC)


----------



## Naylorman32

I'm having a lip sync issue in my setup consisting of a Marantz 8802, Lumagen pro, and my JVC rs540. I tried setting the audio delay on the Marantz to 200ms, but that still isnt fixing it. I'm wondering if i'm possibly using an incorrect configuration? I have Output 1 going to the Marantz input 1 (which could this potentially be the issue? I just need the marantz to pass through Audio), and output 2 going to my projector. Any ideas?


----------



## tnaik4

ive been using Lightspace 3DLUT with madVR for my movies and the lut makes a huge difference in image quality so i ve been wanting to have the same for all my sources, mainly pc gaming / ps4 / netflix etc... , so i think my only option is the Radiance pro .

Is the lumagen upgradable in terms of HDMI 2.1 ? this is very important for pc gaming and might be available in the upcoming graphic cards , also whoever is using lumagen with a PC , is there any issues one should know of ?

Also if i input all my sources to my AV receiver that would mean i only need the Radiance pro with 1input/1output to apply it to all , m i correct ?

thank you.


----------



## Bytehoven

bobof said:


> ... If you're wanting to colour correct your SDR sources connected to the AVR you'll need to route them to the Lumagen.


Are there any dynamic gamma/luminance mapping type tools for SDR content?


----------



## Kris Deering

Naylorman32 said:


> I'm having a lip sync issue in my setup consisting of a Marantz 8802, Lumagen pro, and my JVC rs540. I tried setting the audio delay on the Marantz to 200ms, but that still isnt fixing it. I'm wondering if i'm possibly using an incorrect configuration? I have Output 1 going to the Marantz input 1 (which could this potentially be the issue? I just need the marantz to pass through Audio), and output 2 going to my projector. Any ideas?


This is typically a setup issue in the Marantz. Go to the audio setup and make sure that lip-synch is OFF in the processor. I see this on a lot and it always causes issues. I would suggest the Spears and Munsil Benchmark discs (either the Blu-ray or 4K Blu-ray) and use the AV synch pattern to set lipsynch properly.



tnaik4 said:


> ive been using Lightspace 3DLUT with madVR for my movies and the lut makes a huge difference in image quality so i ve been wanting to have the same for all my sources, mainly pc gaming / ps4 / netflix etc... , so i think my only option is the Radiance pro .
> 
> Is the lumagen upgradable in terms of HDMI 2.1 ? this is very important for pc gaming and might be available in the upcoming graphic cards , also whoever is using lumagen with a PC , is there any issues one should know of ?
> 
> Also if i input all my sources to my AV receiver that would mean i only need the Radiance pro with 1input/1output to apply it to all , m i correct ?
> 
> thank you.


No upgrade to HDMI 2.1 being discussed and when that time comes it will likely be for a new Radiance. I would also NEVER recommend sources going to your AVR then to the Lumagen, causes all kinds of HDMI synch issues. Should always be sources to Radiance to AVR/Processor for best performance.



Bytehoven said:


> Are there any dynamic gamma/luminance mapping type tools for SDR content?


Not even sure what this means. You can do multiple calibration for SDR (say one that is power gamma and one that is 1886) but not sure what you mean by "dynamic". SDR content is typically mastered in 1886 or a power 2.4 gamma and displays are calibrated accordingly.


----------



## Naylorman32

Kris Deering said:


> This is typically a setup issue in the Marantz. Go to the audio setup and make sure that lip-synch is OFF in the processor. I see this on a lot and it always causes issues. I would suggest the Spears and Munsil Benchmark discs (either the Blu-ray or 4K Blu-ray) and use the AV synch pattern to set lipsynch properly.
> 
> Thanks Kris. So Lip Synch is off, and like i said i tried all the way up to 200ms audio delay. i dont think ive ever seen this type of issue before, at least one i couldnt fix just with the audio delay. I'm going to grab one of the discs tonight once i find one online, just to be safe.


----------



## dlinsley

Naylorman32 said:


> Thanks Kris. So Lip Synch is off, and like i said i tried all the way up to 200ms audio delay. i dont think ive ever seen this type of issue before, at least one i couldnt fix just with the audio delay. I'm going to grab one of the discs tonight once i find one online, just to be safe.


Unlikely, but also check Input->Options->Video Delay is not set as that can be used to add over 100ms of extra video delay.

+1 for the Spears & Munsil lip sync video being really great. I've never had good luck with other methods to dial in easily, but the flashing light going back and forth made it super easy to set perfectly in just a few seconds. Another reason to have their disk in your toolkit.


----------



## bobof

Bytehoven said:


> Are there any dynamic gamma/luminance mapping type tools for SDR content?


I'm not sure what you're asking for. For SDR - in particular with a JVC projector - I don't see any good reason to want to try and do anything "dynamic" with the gamma, just set is correctly to BT1886 and have a reference SDR presentation without adulteration. I believe you'll want to do that either with JVC Autocal, a custom JVC gamma curve or using the Lumagen 1D/3DLUT (I do mine in the 1D/3DLUT so I'm hazy on the detail of the other two methods).

The old SDR Radiance units had a "dynamic contrast" function courtesy of the gennum VXP chip, but there isn't anything like that on these units.

Each CMS does have a gamma tweak option which does allow you to tweak the gamma, or you can edit it manually using the 21pt greyscale control.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I would also NEVER recommend sources going to your AVR then to the Lumagen, causes all kinds of HDMI synch issues. Should always be sources to Radiance to AVR/Processor for best performance.


I think it is a good aim to have all sources routed via the Lumagen, but not always possible. 

There are 2 devices I have - AppleTV4k and a Samsung M8500 UHD player - where the workarounds to get solid audio performance through the Lumagen are IMHO worse or more limiting than the potential for HDMI sync issues (at least with my Arcam AVR550 which appears to tolerate the setup a few posts up). They both affect 18G inputs only I believe (I don't have any 9G input cards to check).

The AppleTV4k has audio dropouts with some HDR content with varying metadata - which though by all accounts a spec violation it seems is the world we live in (thanks, Apple). They're particularly noticeable if you have MAT Atmos out enabled as they break the bitstream, which causes a problem with the decoding in the AVR. You can still (just) make them out even if you disable Atmos (though it helps to know where the glitches happen as they can be very subtle). On affected titles the only way to remove it completely is to watch in SDR. So for that reason my AppleTV4k goes direct to the AVR.

The Samsung UHD player when skipping chapter switches audio output formats from bitstream to PCM and back very quickly, which it seems upsets the input on the Lumagen Pro and can result in you losing audio until the input card gets reset (switching to the other input on the card and back again seems to fix it usually). Switching to PCM out appears to fix / alleviate it, though you'll lose Atmos.

From what I understand from going back and forth extensively with Jim and Patrick on the issues above they're both acknowledged and both appear down to device interactions with the microcode from Silicon Image for the input cards. I do sympathise as in my own work I often end up finding all kinds of issues with vendor supplied blobs that you can't control. Hopefully Silicon Image will provide a working microcode, but until they do I can't run all the devices via the Lumagen exclusively (which I would prefer).


----------



## Roland Janus

dlinsley said:


> Can the Sony still scale to panel width? This is an issue on the 4k JVCs where even in Anamorphic C or D mode 3D scales up from 1920 to 3840, but not 4096 wide and so you are left with side bars.
> 
> (On the JVC I'm still playing around with a second lens memory to zoom 3840 wide to fill the screen and on the Lumagen set a different aspect ratio to counteract using None/C/D mode on the JVC)


Anamorphic mode on the PJ while sending 1080p?
Probably, but wouldn't I need to have not send exactly 1080p with the Lumagen then?
Confused


----------



## Bytehoven

Kris Deering said:


> ... Not even sure what this means. You can do multiple calibration for SDR (say one that is power gamma and one that is 1886) but not sure what you mean by "dynamic". SDR content is typically mastered in 1886 or a power 2.4 gamma and displays are calibrated accordingly.





bobof said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking for.


Please pardon my brain f*art.  Yes, all I need are solid fundamentals because the source content has been mastered to well established standards.

My Bad!


----------



## dlinsley

Roland Janus said:


> Anamorphic mode on the PJ while sending 1080p?
> Probably, but wouldn't I need to have not send exactly 1080p with the Lumagen then?
> Confused


If using anamorphic modes in the projector, the Lumagen would be set for 1920x1080 with a 1.78 (16:9) aspect so that it sends the 3D through 1:1.


----------



## bobof

Bytehoven said:


> Please pardon my brain f*art.  Yes, all I need are solid fundamentals because the source content has been mastered to well established standards.
> 
> My Bad!


So if you already have the ChadB gamma curve that you want in the projector you don't need to do anything, it will still be there for REC709 content (for which the default is to pass through as is). 

When you next get calibrated you get the choice I guess of keeping the SDR gamma cal in the PJ or doing it in the Lumagen. I don't know if there is much reason to prefer one over the other - I think you may get more precision and granularity in the projector at present (especially if you upload a curve using the ARVE tools), but the Lumagen can be more convenient (especially if you're doing stuff with the 3DLUTs anyway). There has been talk of increases in both the number of control points for the 1D and increased pipeline precision - not sure where those are on the dev priorities these days.


----------



## Kris Deering

Bytehoven said:


> Please pardon my brain f*art.  Yes, all I need are solid fundamentals because the source content has been mastered to well established standards.
> 
> My Bad!


Interesting graph. I'm surprised that the upper end of the 1886 curve is so far away from 2.4. Chad's almost looks like a rolling 2.35 curve, but the 1886 is a head scratcher. Was your overall contrast just really low so it moved the white point that far down?


----------



## Bytehoven

Kris Deering said:


> Interesting graph. I'm surprised that the upper end of the 1886 curve is so far away from 2.4. Chad's almost looks like a rolling 2.35 curve, but the 1886 is a head scratcher. Was your overall contrast just really low so it moved the white point that far down?


That was just a convenient image of curves I had collected from other AVS threads such as this... Gamma Curve example


----------



## ShadeRF

I have been ripping a lot of my DVD (480p) content to my PC for streaming in the house with Plex or Emby (currently testing both). Today I tried for the first time to stream some 480p content to my Roku and received an out of range error on the JVC. Whether I tried Plex or Emby I got the same error when streaming 480p content. I tried adjusting the various output resolutions in the Lumagen for 480p content but continue to get out of range on the JVC RS3000, again only when streaming 480p content. I'm not sure if this is the place I should start searching for help, but hopefully one of you might have some guidance on what I should try next.

My setup is Roku -> Marantz SR6011 -> Lumagen Radiance Pro -> JVC RS3000


----------



## Kris Deering

Finishing up some testing on a new build for the Radiance Pro. Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue that was talked about before. I've checked it on every occasion that I've seen it with and no issues so far. They've also made some other improvements to the way colors are handled that have fixed some issues that I thought were related to the padding. So at least so far, I can run a more aggressive Dpad (think 1 or 2) with near zero artifacts to report. This gives a significant boost in brighter areas and highlights, even compared to the last update that most were really impressed with. So look for this one soon if no other issues are spotted!


----------



## mandragora

Kris Deering said:


> Finishing up some testing on a new build for the Radiance Pro. Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue that was talked about before. I've checked it on every occasion that I've seen it with and no issues so far. They've also made some other improvements to the way colors are handled that have fixed some issues that I thought were related to the padding. So at least so far, I can run a more aggressive Dpad (think 1 or 2) with near zero artifacts to report. This gives a significant boost in brighter areas and highlights, even compared to the last update that most were really impressed with. So look for this one soon if no other issues are spotted!


Hello all, 

unfortunately I've seen brightness drop couple of times in Jurassic World and The Meg, firmware updated last Friday.

The drops were in just couple of occasions, so not a massive problem, but it was noticeable.

anybody else out there who has watched those movies who can confirm the issue or not ?

thanks, 

Benedetto


----------



## audioguy

What I continue to find amazing about the Lumagen product and company is how they CONTINUALLY are working to improve it's performance. It simply never stops. There are very few audio companies who can say that. I remember either reading on these forums or hearing from a Lumagen owner that the "Lumagen was the Trinnov of video". Having now owned both for a while, I really do get the comparison.

Hats off to Lumagen, and Jim and his team!!


----------



## alex_t

mandragora said:


> Hello all,
> 
> unfortunately I've seen brightness drop couple of times in Jurassic World and The Meg, firmware updated last Friday.
> 
> The drops were in just couple of occasions, so not a massive problem, but it was noticeable.
> 
> anybody else out there who has watched those movies who can confirm the issue or not ?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Benedetto



Hello,


The firmware Kris Deering is referring to is not the last update (Beta 100619) available on Lumagen site but it is most likely the next one coming soon.


I confirm that Beta 100619 generates brightness drops on several HDR titles.


----------



## Kris Deering

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> The firmware Kris Deering is referring to is not the last update (Beta 100619) available on Lumagen site but it is most likely the next one coming soon.
> 
> 
> I confirm that Beta 100619 generates brightness drops on several HDR titles.


Correct. The firmware I was referring to HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED publicly yet. It addresses the brightness drops directly (and fixes every instance that I've tested with known scenes). It is still going through internal testing and hopefully will be released soon. 

For those of you who are distracted or bothered by the brightness drops, you can turn off the adaptive function that causes this issue. Go into INPUT SETTINGS:OTHER:HDR SETTINGSYNAMIC SETTINGS and turn OFF the adaptive option.


----------



## mandragora

Kris Deering said:


> Correct. The firmware I was referring to HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED publicly yet. It addresses the brightness drops directly (and fixes every instance that I've tested with known scenes). It is still going through internal testing and hopefully will be released soon.
> 
> For those of you who are distracted or bothered by the brightness drops, you can turn off the adaptive function that causes this issue. Go into INPUT SETTINGS:OTHER:HDR SETTINGSYNAMIC SETTINGS and turn OFF the adaptive option.


thanks all for the input, it make more sense now  

have a nice day, 

Benedetto


----------



## abinav555

Can the Lumagen convert 2.35 content to 16:9 or 2.0:1 without cropping ?


----------



## bobof

abinav555 said:


> Can the Lumagen convert 2.35 content to 16:9 or 2.0:1 without cropping ?


There is no sensible way to do it without cropping (on any processor).

Without cropping the extra pixels off the sides of the wider aspect your only option is to stretch the image out to be taller - the Lumagen can't magically re-create the missing pixels that are outside of the top and bottom of the frame. So everyone ends up being much taller if you don't crop.

In the other direction when you go from a 16:9 image to a 2.35:1 screen there is a non-linear stretch mode which can stretch out the edge of the image more than the centre. It only just about works in that direction (I dislike it, some folk like it). In the direction you want to do there isn't really any screen area that you could apply sensibly a non-linear stretch to. 

You could just make the Lumagen stretch the content vertically if you wanted to by abusing the settings, but it would look terrible and I don't know why you'd want to do it.

By far the best option if you are watching scope content on a 16:9 screen with a Lumagen is to use auto aspect and masking together (kind of assumes a projector though). An inexpensive masking system can be to have the Lumagen automatically shift wider ratios to the bottom of the screen, and then have simple black roller blind (perhaps motorised) to mask just the top inactive area of the screen.


----------



## Roland Janus

*Green Line*

recently I get a green vertical line in the middle of the screen when turning everything on.
Once I restart the Pro it's gone and stays gone when playing 1080p24, 3D or 4K.

But when playing 1080p50 today it's constant there and very annoying.
There is another line on the left side, almost out of the screen.

When disabling 1080p50 in Kodi, forcing it to 24 (with less annoying stutter), there isn't one.

Anyone noticed that?


----------



## stefanop

I assume you have a SONY5000. You have to deselect reduce bandwidth in Radiance.


----------



## Roland Janus

stefanop said:


> I assume you have a SONY5000. You have to deselect reduce bandwidth in Radiance.


I do. I check it out.

thanks!


----------



## abinav555

bobof said:


> abinav555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can the Lumagen convert 2.35 content to 16:9 or 2.0:1 without cropping ?
> 
> 
> 
> There is no sensible way to do it without cropping (on any processor).
> 
> Without cropping the extra pixels off the sides of the wider aspect your only option is to stretch the image out to be taller - the Lumagen can't magically re-create the missing pixels that are outside of the top and bottom of the frame. So everyone ends up being much taller if you don't crop.
> 
> In the other direction when you go from a 16:9 image to a 2.35:1 screen there is a non-linear stretch mode which can stretch out the edge of the image more than the centre. It only just about works in that direction (I dislike it, some folk like it). In the direction you want to do there isn't really any screen area that you could apply sensibly a non-linear stretch to.
> 
> You could just make the Lumagen stretch the content vertically if you wanted to by abusing the settings, but it would look terrible and I don't know why you'd want to do it.
> 
> By far the best option if you are watching scope content on a 16:9 screen with a Lumagen is to use auto aspect and masking together (kind of assumes a projector though). An inexpensive masking system can be to have the Lumagen automatically shift wider ratios to the bottom of the screen, and then have simple black roller blind (perhaps motorised) to mask just the top inactive area of the screen.
Click to expand...

Thanks bobof for the detailed explanation. I now understand that even though it is an option, it probably is a terrible one. On that note, can I use custom aspect ratios(with cropping ofcourse) ? I find that while using Kodi to stream my files, I have the option ot zoom the image to create my own ratio. Hence I tend to lean more towards a 2.0:1 ratio. This crops the inage but does not lose any detail as such. But this zoom mode is not possible while watching movies on Netflix.


----------



## bobof

abinav555 said:


> Thanks bobof for the detailed explanation. I now understand that even though it is an option, it probably is a terrible one. On that note, can I use custom aspect ratios(with cropping ofcourse) ? I find that while using Kodi to stream my files, I have the option ot zoom the image to create my own ratio. Hence I tend to lean more towards a 2.0:1 ratio. This crops the inage but does not lose any detail as such. But this zoom mode is not possible while watching movies on Netflix.


Ok, so if you are happy to have a little cropping there is lots you can do as the Lumagen's ratios are very configurable.
At the simplest level the Lumagen up / down buttons on the remote default to "zoom" - but this isn't like your usual simple TV zoom function. Zoom has configurable step size and several steps and so allows you to zoom eg: 2.35 content to something more like 2.0 with just a couple of button presses. 

Outside of that you could make auto aspect detect the formats like 2.35 and 2.0 and then edit those aspect ratios so that they are always auto zoomed a bit to your preference. (I'm pretty sure that is configurable per input aspect if you press the right buttons - I haven't done it like this as I have a masking screen. If I remember next time I'm in the room I'll give it a go and report back - though someone else may just know the answer off the top of their head)

These options make much more sense than trying to stretch the image vertically to fill the screen.


----------



## bobof

How are folk getting on with balancing dPad and low ratio?

I was just watching Hacksaw Ridge 1h38:00 there is a bright explosion. This looked very detail-light with my current settings, with large blocks of the explosion blown out to white (real nits around 75, DML 450, dPad 4, low ratio 28 for effective DML 147). I think these settings are more or less in line with the current recommendations.

I can bring back the detail in the highlights by either increasing dPad to 8 or dropping the low Ratio significantly. I guess ideally it would be nice for something to recover that lost detail for me automagically...

Anyone else watched that scene recently? What do you think should happen in that explosion?

Note I have the adaptive feature turned off due to the jumps it introduces; not sure if this is the sort of scene it should fix.


----------



## mhafner

Watched the 3D BD of Alita on my JVC projector and via Lumagen the right edge looks striped (last 50 pixels or so per line are the same). Without Lumagen it's fine. I'm on the latest firmware. Anyone else seeing this with 3D titles?


----------



## dgkula

Hi,

I am having a minor issue and would like to put it out there to see if it is my configuration or something I can address with MyHarmony remote startup sequences or something else.

I have three activities on my MyHarmony:

1. "Watch HD Movie" for 1080p BluRay. I set this up on Input 1, Memory B, Video Limit 1080p to send the player EDID for 1080p so that the Lumagen does the upscaling to 4k. When I start the activity, the Harmony workflow selects input 1 and MemB. This works. When I turn this activity off, I first select MemA then set the Lumagen to standby (just in case; don't want startup of other activities to see MemB set).

2. "Watch UHD Movie" for 4k UHD. Set up on Input 1, Memory A, all defaults. When I start the activity, the Harmony workflow selects input 1 and MemA.This works.

3. "Watch Roku" on Input 3. When I start the activity, the Harmony workflow selects input 3 and MemA. This works generally.

I haven't done lots of work to repro this but in a few instances, when sitting down to watch Roku I hit the OK button and find that the Roku has picked up the 1080p EDID and is sending 1080p to the Lumagen. I'm pretty sure this is happening after watching a UHD Movie so oddly enough doesn't seem to have anything to do with watching 1080p and forcing that EDID. The Roku is set up to auto-detect so all I do is go into the settings menu to auto detect again and it picks up 4k60p.

Any idea on how to troubleshoot this? It is annoying.


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am having a minor issue and would like to put it out there to see if it is my configuration or something I can address with MyHarmony remote startup sequences or something else.
> 
> I have three activities on my MyHarmony:
> 
> 1. "Watch HD Movie" for 1080p BluRay. I set this up on Input 1, Memory B, Video Limit 1080p to send the player EDID for 1080p so that the Lumagen does the upscaling to 4k. When I start the activity, the Harmony workflow selects input 1 and MemB. This works. When I turn this activity off, I first select MemA then set the Lumagen to standby (just in case; don't want startup of other activities to see MemB set).
> 
> 2. "Watch UHD Movie" for 4k UHD. Set up on Input 1, Memory A, all defaults. When I start the activity, the Harmony workflow selects input 1 and MemA.This works.
> 
> 3. "Watch Roku" on Input 3. When I start the activity, the Harmony workflow selects input 3 and MemA. This works generally.
> 
> I haven't done lots of work to repro this but in a few instances, when sitting down to watch Roku I hit the OK button and find that the Roku has picked up the 1080p EDID and is sending 1080p to the Lumagen. I'm pretty sure this is happening after watching a UHD Movie so oddly enough doesn't seem to have anything to do with watching 1080p and forcing that EDID. The Roku is set up to auto-detect so all I do is go into the settings menu to auto detect again and it picks up 4k60p.
> 
> Any idea on how to troubleshoot this? It is annoying.


For belts and braces I'd go for doing something to the Roku to make it reboot / reset if possible on the switch. I reboot my AppleTV every time I switch to it because on occasion it would do unhelpful things. 

It looks like the Roku has the right 4K EDID already at that point on the screen - I guess you haven't done anything to make it pick it up on that screen? Sounds like a bug in the Roku (or feature perhaps) that once it sees the 1080p EDID once and goes down to 1080p it doesn't automatically change back up to 4K until you select it manually. SO it would seem on some occasions it is being shown the 1080p EDID.

Have you saved the config when in Mem A? If not after some types of power up it will go to whatever mem you were in when you did your save. 

I think to have the 1080p limit you could try using a virtual input instead for input 1 vs input 1 with 1080p (so you'd set one of the other HDMI input numbers to also point at physical input 1). That would avoid having to do the frig with the memory to get to 1080p, making your Harmony activity switching much simpler. Simpler is always better.

Hope you find some things of use to try in the above.


----------



## Bytehoven

dgkula said:


> Hi,
> ...
> I haven't done lots of work to repro this but in a few instances, when sitting down to watch Roku I hit the OK button and find that the Roku has picked up the 1080p EDID and is sending 1080p to the Lumagen. I'm pretty sure this is happening after watching a UHD Movie so oddly enough doesn't seem to have anything to do with watching 1080p and forcing that EDID. The Roku is set up to auto-detect so all I do is go into the settings menu to auto detect again and it picks up 4k60p.
> 
> Any idea on how to troubleshoot this? It is annoying.


I think it's a bug with the 9.2 software update. I have the same issue with the Ultra. It has happened enough, that I have set the Roku in 4k60 mode instead of auto.

I will try what you suggest to force the roku to auto detect again.


----------



## dgkula

bobof said:


> For belts and braces I'd go for doing something to the Roku to make it reboot / reset if possible on the switch. I reboot my AppleTV every time I switch to it because on occasion it would do unhelpful things.


Will try this.



bobof said:


> It looks like the Roku has the right 4K EDID already at that point on the screen - I guess you haven't done anything to make it pick it up on that screen? Sounds like a bug in the Roku (or feature perhaps) that once it sees the 1080p EDID once and goes down to 1080p it doesn't automatically change back up to 4K until you select it manually. SO it would seem on some occasions it is being shown the 1080p EDID.


Correct - this is after turning everything on, hitting Ok and discovering that the Roku is sending 1080p, moving to the display settings screen on the Roku to discover that it has correctly identified the device settings in auto mode as 4k60p but for some reason sending 1080p



bobof said:


> Have you saved the config when in Mem A? If not after some types of power up it will go to whatever mem you were in when you did your save.


I'm pretty sure that at least one of the several saves I have done has been in MemA as that is my default mem. I only go to MemB for the 1080p blu ray case to force the EDID so the Panny UB900 sends 1080p. I switch to MemB in that startup sequence so when the Panny detects Lumagen mode via EDID on startup it sees 1080p.



bobof said:


> I think to have the 1080p limit you could try using a virtual input instead for input 1 vs input 1 with 1080p (so you'd set one of the other HDMI input numbers to also point at physical input 1). That would avoid having to do the frig with the memory to get to 1080p, making your Harmony activity switching much simpler. Simpler is always better.


Virtual inputs is not ringing a bell - will need to go through the manual again to see how this is done. Thank you very much for the ideas!


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> I'm pretty sure that at least one of the several saves I have done has been in MemA as that is my default mem. I only go to MemB for the 1080p blu ray case to force the EDID so the Panny UB900 sends 1080p. I switch to MemB in that startup sequence so when the Panny detects Lumagen mode via EDID on startup it sees 1080p.


One of several doesn't help much...  It has to be precisely the most recent save. This catches me out all the time as it also remembers things like the current input, which means that your power up behaviour on the Lumagen can be different after a save because you forgot to change back to your default input.



dgkula said:


> Will try this.
> Virtual inputs is not ringing a bell - will need to go through the manual again to see how this is done. Thank you very much for the ideas!


You have a 4242 like me. You will have logical inputs 1-8; by default inputs 1-4 are mapped to the expected connectors. I can't remember what the default is for inputs 5-8, but you can basically set them to be a different physical input and you then get different settings for that virtual input. I can't recall if you get different settings for everything, but certainly for quite a lot of stuff. Of course because it becomes a different input you can now make other useful things happen in the outputs screen, too.


----------



## dgkula

bobof said:


> One of several doesn't help much...  It has to be precisely the most recent save. This catches me out all the time as it also remembers things like the current input, which means that your power up behaviour on the Lumagen can be different after a save because you forgot to change back to your default input.


Ok thx. I just did a save on Input 3A. I also modified power on settings to always choose 3A (this is Roku 18GHz which should default to 4k60p).



bobof said:


> You have a 4242 like me. You will have logical inputs 1-8; by default inputs 1-4 are mapped to the expected connectors. I can't remember what the default is for inputs 5-8, but you can basically set them to be a different physical input and you then get different settings for that virtual input. I can't recall if you get different settings for everything, but certainly for quite a lot of stuff. Of course because it becomes a different input you can now make other useful things happen in the outputs screen, too.


Got it - in theory this shouldn't make a difference I think, whether I use the same input #3 with different memories A (18GHz) & B (1080p) or use input 5A mapped to input #3 with per-input MemA at 1080p.


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> Ok thx. I just did a save on Input 3A. I also modified power on settings to always choose 3A (this is Roku 18GHz which should default to 4k60p).
> 
> Got it - in theory this shouldn't make a difference I think, whether I use the same input #3 with different memories A (18GHz) & B (1080p) or use input 5A mapped to input #3 with per-input MemA at 1080p.


I'd be tempted not to have the power on input being the device that has issues, but that's just me.

I guess the only danger with your current set up is that you have mem B on the Roku set to something else (like your 1080p limit) and thus occasionally when you switch it misses the first switch to Mem A on exiting "watch HD movie), then does the input switch (so it would momentarily be in mem B) and then the mem A switch happens.

Anyway, I guess you've got some things to experiment with. They might amount to nothing. Good luck with it


----------



## dgkula

Bytehoven said:


> I think it's a bug with the 9.2 software update. I have the same issue with the Ultra. It has happened enough, that I have set the Roku in 4k60 mode instead of auto.


Every time I set the Roku to 40k60p it resets to auto detect when I start the system and I get a dialog box. Didn't do this before the Lumagen.


----------



## audioguy

I am using the Nvidia Shield/Plex to watch my ripped movie files. The only issue is that there is no way to keep Plex from up-converting to 4K if it sees a 4K display. Based upon the above, it sounds like there is a way that I can use the same physical input on the Lumagen (different virtual input?) that would be set so the Lumagen will tell the Nvidia that it is 1080P. That would then allow the Lumagen to do the up-conversion. 

How, exactly, would I set that up? (I had someone else do the setup and calibration of the Lumagen so I know very little about it).


----------



## Bytehoven

:grin:


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> I am using the Nvidia Shield/Plex to watch my ripped movie files. The only issue is that there is no way to keep Plex from up-converting to 4K if it sees a 4K display. Based upon the above, it sounds like there is a way that I can use the same physical input on the Lumagen (different virtual input?) that would be set so the Lumagen will tell the Nvidia that it is 1080P. That would then allow the Lumagen to do the up-conversion.
> 
> How, exactly, would I set that up? (I had someone else do the setup and calibration of the Lumagen so I know very little about it).


How >exactly< depends on many things, but basically:

Switch to another unused input (preferably one that you don't have a physical card for - on my 4242 with 4 physical inputs that is inputs 5-8)
Change Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Physical in to the correct input
Change Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Video EDID -> video limit to 1080p

Any time you switch to that input the device will see the 1080p EDID instead of 4K.
How exactly your player deals with this though depends on the player. It seems possible the player might drop to 1080p and not come back up to 4K unless you manually tell it to, depending on settings / implementation.

Bear in mind that if you had settings that had been specifically made to that original input number and not to ALL inputs then you will likely have to re-apply those settings to the new input.

If you're not comfortable with tweaking these things (and probably even if you are) make sure you have a backup of the work your pro has done in the Lumagen first. There is a utility on the Lumagen website that can download all the config to your PC for safe keeping before you start twiddling knobs


----------



## dgkula

Looks like there may be a bug in rokus new firmware release related to this 1080p behavior. Thank the lumagen team fir not automatically pushing firmware updates.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...ere-ultra-owners-thread-406.html#post58832244


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> How >exactly< depends on many things, but basically:
> 
> Switch to another unused input (preferably one that you don't have a physical card for - on my 4242 with 4 physical inputs that is inputs 5-8)
> Change Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Physical in to the correct input
> Change Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Video EDID -> video limit to 1080p
> 
> Any time you switch to that input the device will see the 1080p EDID instead of 4K.
> How exactly your player deals with this though depends on the player. It seems possible the player might drop to 1080p and not come back up to 4K unless you manually tell it to, depending on settings / implementation.
> 
> Bear in mind that if you had settings that had been specifically made to that original input number and not to ALL inputs then you will likely have to re-apply those settings to the new input.
> 
> If you're not comfortable with tweaking these things (and probably even if you are) make sure you have a backup of the work your pro has done in the Lumagen first. There is a utility on the Lumagen website that can download all the config to your PC for safe keeping before you start twiddling knobs



Excellent. Thanks. And I will most certainly back it up prior to trying this just in case I screw things up


----------



## mskreis

dgkula said:


> Every time I set the Roku to 40k60p it resets to auto detect when I start the system and I get a dialog box. Didn't do this before the Lumagen.




In the Roku forum it was suggested that one should Disable Automatic Recovery from within one of the hidden menus. Since doing this my Roku no longer reverts back to 1080. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bytehoven

I spent about 9 hours playing with the 4442 in my set up last night.

WOW!

1st let me thank Jm and Giomania for the owners manual and the user guides. At 1st glance, this box can be intimidating with the seriously wide range of stuff it can do. The 7/2019 manual and the user guides, were a wonderful walk thru, for my old brain.

Also thanks to Bobof for getting me started with some settings, from which to explore.


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> Excellent. Thanks. And I will most certainly back it up prior to trying this just in case I screw things up


I don't know if this will help, but I record my per-source input and output settings on this spreadsheet:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wciFZNNsErmaVpRZwvAQe3pK6AeTx1JP

Mark


----------



## dgkula

mskreis said:


> In the Roku forum it was suggested that one should Disable Automatic Recovery from within one of the hidden menus. Since doing this my Roku no longer reverts back to 1080.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you very much! Made the change will see if that fixes it.


----------



## Des511

Any update on when the next firmware will be available?


----------



## D6500Ken

Kris Deering said:


> Finishing up some testing on a new build for the Radiance Pro. Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue that was talked about before. I've checked it on every occasion that I've seen it with and no issues so far. They've also made some other improvements to the way colors are handled that have fixed some issues that I thought were related to the padding. So at least so far, I can run a more aggressive Dpad (think 1 or 2) with near zero artifacts to report. This gives a significant boost in brighter areas and highlights, even compared to the last update that most were really impressed with. So look for this one soon if no other issues are spotted!



I can confirm that (on my torture-test discs) Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue in the pre-release build. Kudos to the team for their efforts in chasing down these issues.


Ken Whitcomb


----------



## stefanop

D6500Ken said:


> I can confirm that (on my torture-test discs) Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue in the pre-release build. Kudos to the team for their efforts in chasing down these issues.
> 
> 
> Ken Whitcomb


great news! It was very annoying


----------



## Craig Peer

D6500Ken said:


> I can confirm that (on my torture-test discs) Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue in the pre-release build. Kudos to the team for their efforts in chasing down these issues.
> 
> 
> Ken Whitcomb


I'm looking forward to this release. The fact that you can improve your picture month after month using the same projector makes it worth every penny IMO. The Radiance Pro is more of a bargain than most people realize. Watching John Wick 2 & 3 with friends the other night looked better than ever !


----------



## SJHT

We have IT Chapter 2 and decided to go back and rewatch Chapter 1. That movie in 4K HDR was difficult to watch because of it being so dark. Not anymore with all the Lumagen Pro upgrades! Much improved video. SJ


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Kris did a walk thru with me a few weeks ago on my system, it looks awesome.Most of the HDMI switching issues in terms of length of time switching on netflix HDR to UHD etc went away when I went directly to the lumagen as the video switcher. Looks like i'm going to order 2 more cards.
One thing I'm still getting an issue is on the Roku 4k Ultra when I set it to auto adjust display refresh rate, I get issues like a shaking pic if i pull up the lumagen menu, or really long blank screens (20 seconds), and some videos on youtube not even playing. It seems the lumagen doesn't like the roku auto refresh rate? for example on Amazon jack ryan, when i enable it, input says 24hz, but menu when pulled up has a slight shake, and before pic comes up it takes a good 20 seconds.

AppleTV works great with auto refresh.

Also, did I read that I can setup a virtual input on the lumagen so that the roku thinks it's a 1080p display and automatically goes to 1080p? I would love to do this when watching movies off my plex server which most are 1080p and have the lumagen upscale vs. the roku. Otherwise, manually going in on the roku each time to switch it is a pain. I was going to have a button the remote to switch inputs on the lumagen if this is the case.?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

another question is I can't get jack ryan on roku ultra 4k to do atmos to my receiver now that I went thru the lumagen. Under HDMI input setup audio edid, what should it be? common? passbackOut1 passbackout2, basic? I can't remember where it was after I changed it trying to fix this.


----------



## dlinsley

gadgetfreaky said:


> another question is I can't get jack ryan on roku ultra 4k to do atmos to my receiver now that I went thru the lumagen. Under HDMI input setup audio edid, what should it be? common? passbackOut1 passbackout2, basic? I can't remember where it was after I changed it trying to fix this.


I've not tried to replicate your issue with Jack Ryan (I also have a Roku Ultra 4k, but Atmos in general has been working fine), but try "MENU 0943 Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources (feature toggle)"


From the Radiance firmware updates page:
Beta 070117- Fixed up auto input selection which is enabled and configured in the menu under Other: I/O Setup: Auto Select . Added Dobly Atmos flag to the global common audio formats (if you've already enabled common audio formats with "menu 0943" the Atmos flag will now be present). Not all audio sources needed to see the Atmos flag but some sources do. Fixed up a bug in 062617 which could cause no video on output.

I had an issue back in the day, and Jim/Pat made changes to Menu 0943 that fixed it.


----------



## dgkula

gadgetfreaky said:


> Also, did I read that I can setup a virtual input on the lumagen so that the roku thinks it's a 1080p display and automatically goes to 1080p? I would love to do this when watching movies off my plex server which most are 1080p and have the lumagen upscale vs. the roku. Otherwise, manually going in on the roku each time to switch it is a pain. I was going to have a button the remote to switch inputs on the lumagen if this is the case.?


 @bobof detailed the settings earlier in the thread:

How >exactly< depends on many things, but basically:

Switch to another unused input (preferably one that you don't have a physical card for - on my 4242 with 4 physical inputs that is inputs 5-8)
Change Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Physical in to the correct input
Change Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Video EDID -> video limit to 1080p

Any time you switch to that input the device will see the 1080p EDID instead of 4K.
How exactly your player deals with this though depends on the player. It seems possible the player might drop to 1080p and not come back up to 4K unless you manually tell it to, depending on settings / implementation.

I do the same with a memory on the same input (e.g. my Panny UB900 is on input 3; 3A is 4k, 3B is 1080p) so hitting the MemB will send the EDID for 1080p.


----------



## dgkula

Just got a 2019 NVIDIA Shield TV Pro - mostly for Atmos for Netflix and Amazon Prime content - my Roku doesn't have that capability.

The Shield detects my display through the Lumagen as HDR10 BT2020 capable and seems to be sending SDR using the 2020 colorspace. The Lumagen picks that up and passes on the HDR flag which puts my JVC projector in high lamp mode which burns my retinas!!



















It looks like the Lumagen offers a single CMS selection for HDR/2020 and defaults to CMS1 which sends the HDR flag. It does know that the source is not HDR as the tone mapping is not enabled with a message like "source is not HDR."

Any idea how I can pass the SDR 2020 from input to output without enabling the HDR flag? Any other tips for the Shield? Thx!


----------



## KarlKlammer

dgkula said:


> Any idea how I can pass the SDR 2020 from input to output without enabling the HDR flag? Any other tips for the Shield? Thx!


I set the Shield to Rec.709 and enabled the automatic color space switching.




Another thing about Shield 2019: AI-Upscaling looks artificial, while Radiance Upscaling looks natural.


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> Just got a 2019 NVIDIA Shield TV Pro - mostly for Atmos for Netflix and Amazon Prime content - my Roku doesn't have that capability.
> 
> The Shield detects my display through the Lumagen as HDR10 BT2020 capable and seems to be sending SDR using the 2020 colorspace. The Lumagen picks that up and passes on the HDR flag which puts my JVC projector in high lamp mode which burns my retinas!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the Lumagen offers a single CMS selection for HDR/2020 and defaults to CMS1 which sends the HDR flag. It does know that the source is not HDR as the tone mapping is not enabled with a message like "source is not HDR."
> 
> Any idea how I can pass the SDR 2020 from input to output without enabling the HDR flag? Any other tips for the Shield? Thx!


Set the colorspace in use to not be AUTO and to instead be SDR 2020 with the HDR flag disabled. It will use the same setting for HDR and SDR2020 input from the source, but it will apply the tone mapping only to the HDR content.

If you need to do different projector user modes for HDR vs SDR 2020 vs SDR709 input you'll have to have some control system of sorts (I use a raspberry pi) to monitor the Lumagen reports of the input format and send mode changes to the projector via IR or IP. However that does present some calibration challenges as you can't have separate 3DLUTS auto switch in the Lumagen for SDR709, SDR2020 and HDR2020, and you really want a different 3DLUT at each iris setting - that logic would have to be done externally I believe, switching the Lumagen into a different memory when HDR2020 or SDR2020 were detected.

What is the point in having the shield output SDR2020 - there isn't any useful SDR2020 content out there? It means SDR709 content will either be gamut mapped, which is fine if it gets it right...


----------



## dgkula

bobof said:


> What is the point in having the shield output SDR2020 - there isn't any useful SDR2020 content out there? It means SDR709 content will either be gamut mapped, which is fine if it gets it right...


Thanks for the feedback - I figured out how to get the Shield to default to SDR 709 for the menu and play HDR 2020 as required by content.


----------



## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> Finishing up some testing on a new build for the Radiance Pro. Lumagen has fixed the random flicker/brightness drop issue that was talked about before. I've checked it on every occasion that I've seen it with and no issues so far. They've also made some other improvements to the way colors are handled that have fixed some issues that I thought were related to the padding. So at least so far, I can run a more aggressive Dpad (think 1 or 2) with near zero artifacts to report. This gives a significant boost in brighter areas and highlights, even compared to the last update that most were really impressed with. So look for this one soon if no other issues are spotted!


I guess there were a few bugs discovered, looking forward to this release


----------



## gadgetfreaky

dlinsley said:


> I've not tried to replicate your issue with Jack Ryan (I also have a Roku Ultra 4k, but Atmos in general has been working fine), but try "MENU 0943 Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources (feature toggle)"
> 
> 
> From the Radiance firmware updates page:
> Beta 070117- Fixed up auto input selection which is enabled and configured in the menu under Other: I/O Setup: Auto Select . Added Dobly Atmos flag to the global common audio formats (if you've already enabled common audio formats with "menu 0943" the Atmos flag will now be present). Not all audio sources needed to see the Atmos flag but some sources do. Fixed up a bug in 062617 which could cause no video on output.
> 
> I had an issue back in the day, and Jim/Pat made changes to Menu 0943 that fixed it.


0943 just moves EDID audio to common right? Im getting dolby atmos on my apple 4k, but not on the roku ultra 4k. I'm only getting dolby digital plus on the roku.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> Set the colorspace in use to not be AUTO and to instead be SDR 2020 with the HDR flag disabled. It will use the same setting for HDR and SDR2020 input from the source, but it will apply the tone mapping only to the HDR content.
> 
> If you need to do different projector user modes for HDR vs SDR 2020 vs SDR709 input you'll have to have some control system of sorts (I use a raspberry pi) to monitor the Lumagen reports of the input format and send mode changes to the projector via IR or IP. However that does present some calibration challenges as you can't have separate 3DLUTS auto switch in the Lumagen for SDR709, SDR2020 and HDR2020, and you really want a different 3DLUT at each iris setting - that logic would have to be done externally I believe, switching the Lumagen into a different memory when HDR2020 or SDR2020 were detected.
> 
> What is the point in having the shield output SDR2020 - there isn't any useful SDR2020 content out there? It means SDR709 content will either be gamut mapped, which is fine if it gets it right...



wow, this is what I'd love to figure out, somehow trigger the projector to change to one of the custom picture settings and light output at 100 when it see HDR content, but when it's SDR, it's the other custom picture setting (gamma 2.2, light output to 70%). how did you do that?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

thrang said:


> To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)
> 
> 
> - Measured LUX using a AEMC CA813 light meter with a 100% white Radiance Test pattern, making sure I was in the projector picture mode I use for HDR content. _Pointed at the projector not the screen_.
> - Converted LUX to nits (LUX/3.1459) - (used the inverse of this calculation: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html)
> - Multiplied this by SCREEN GAIN for actual NIT value
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu​
> So my measured LUX value was 555 or so. To convert to Nits, it was 551/3.1459= 176. Multiplied by 0.9 screen gain, the NIT value at center screen was 159.
> 
> 159 x6 gave me 953 for the MAX NIT value. 159 x2 gave the the low ratio target of 317, so ratio 28 was closest (311) (all math approximate here)
> 
> To check the max nit value was correct (besides Kris confirming the values!) I used a Lux to Lumen spreadsheet to input my screen size parameters, throw distance, and center screen LUX measurement. The measured peak lumens was *2634*.
> 
> From this site https://hometheatreengineering.com/projectors-screen-sizes/, there is the following calculation:
> 
> Lumens = Nits x Screen Area (in square meters) * Pi (3.14159). For me (square meters for my screen is approx 4.7), this calculated lumens to *2608*, so quite close to the spreadsheet value.
> 
> Hope this helps... if Kris corrects my ass here, I'll update the post!


wow, found this post..

HDR Intensity Mapping "Display max Light (nits): if my projector on a white screen is 860 lux measured (yes it's a light cannon, benq LK990)

860/3.1459 x 1.4 (black diamond screen innvovations 1.4 gain) = 382 NITS x6 = 2,296 Max nit value. 382x2 =764 for low screen ratio of 28. so I have DPad 4, Ratio 28 Shape 3 Tran 7 HDsat 8 

would this be right? now the black diamond 1.4 gain is super bright as well so not sure if that puts a bigger gain multiplier than 1.4? I noticed that until I crank Max value to 2800 is where each individual cloud shows up in a scene in spiderman homecoming. But that does darken the overall pic a bit.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I set the Shield to Rec.709 and enabled the automatic color space switching.


You must have the beta update then I guess, as I thought the colour space switching is still broken?


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> You must have the beta update then I guess, as I thought the colour space switching is still broken?


Yes, I am on the second Hotfix (32.7.301.43).


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> wow, this is what I'd love to figure out, somehow trigger the projector to change to one of the custom picture settings and light output at 100 when it see HDR content, but when it's SDR, it's the other custom picture setting (gamma 2.2, light output to 70%). how did you do that?


What display is it?

If it is a recent JVC, and you set your source devices to output REC709 for SDR and REC2020 for HDR, and you're happy to use one of a limited selection of modes for HDR, then you can use the "HDR flag" option to trigger a different projector mode. 

If it is not, then you effectively need a "control system". The Lumagen can be set up to automatically output status updates on its serial port when certain things happen (input format change, aspect ratio change, etc). I use a Raspberry Pi connected to the serial port as my control system. I built a small script that parses the automatic output and based on the content of the output either change modes in my projector (control over IP) or adjust my screen masking (again, control over IP). That was a DIY project - I used it as an opportunity to learn a bit of Python. If that isn't your idea of fun, then a custom install integrator should be able to implement this sort of thing using an off-the-shelf control / automation system. If you already have such an automation system in place then it would likely be possible to extend it to do this via programming.

With the JVC projector you are lucky that you have the option of controlling it over IP or RS232 or IR. For some displays your only option might be to have the control system see the output of the Lumagen status updates and emit some IR, pretending to be a remote control.

Another option is the use of an HDFury box like a Vertex, maestro, diva, vertex2. I'm hesitant to recommend this as it adds another HDMI device in the chain which I don't think is ever a good idea if there is an option not to, and the use of it gets very complicated if the Lumagen is being used to modify the output to SDR2020 or similar - as the information needed may no longer be present at the Lumagen output, you might need to be operating at the source device's output instead.

If you provide more information about your system and display, any control system you already have, and your own technical ability I could perhaps suggest a good way forward for you.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, I am on the second Hotfix (32.7.301.43).


Cool. I'm frankly a bit shocked it got through QC like that and has put me right off the idea of getting a Shield 2019 for now. From following some of the stuff on the hotfixes it looks like even the hotfix wasn't reliable on all displays. I'll probably still "break" and pick one up though...


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Cool. I'm frankly a bit shocked it got through QC like that and has put me right off the idea of getting a Shield 2019 for now. From following some of the stuff on the hotfixes it looks like even the hotfix wasn't reliable on all displays. I'll probably still "break" and pick one up though...


Yes, I also find this a little bit disappointed. It's 2019 and the third incarnation of the Sihield. And we still have to deal with colour space, refresh rate, resolution and sound issues. 

At least it is not a huge investment. And I was in the mood to have an additional device to play around with this LLDV thing.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, I also find this a little bit disappointed. It's 2019 and the third incarnation of the Sihield. And we still have to deal with colour space, refresh rate, resolution and sound issues.
> 
> At least it is not a huge investment. And I was in the mood to have an additional device to play around with this LLDV thing.


Like most of this stuff, it's not so much the cost, more the time these days. As I age I'm finding myself more reluctant to invest my time in helping corporations who rarely want to listen. Small firms like the Lumagens of this world are a completely different matter as they give back often more than you put in.

On the LLDV thing; it would be really nice if Lumagen added somehow the option to use fully custom video / audio EDIDs. It would avoid having to stick an HDfury in circuit for that kind of fringe hackery. It wouldn't need to be (that) complicated - some custom EDID slots with just a serial API to upload to them. 

I've had many of the HDFury devices in the past and while very good it is a universal truth that longer HDMI chains usually mean yet more lost time trying to make everything play nice together, more quirks to work out, more bugs to feed back...


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> On the LLDV thing; it would be really nice if Lumagen added somehow the option to use fully custom video / audio EDIDs. It would avoid having to stick an HDfury in circuit for that kind of fringe hackery. It wouldn't need to be (that) complicated - some custom EDID slots with just a serial API to upload to them.
> 
> I've had many of the HDFury devices in the past and while very good it is a universal truth that longer HDMI chains usually mean yet more lost time trying to make everything play nice together, more quirks to work out, more bugs to feed back...


A custom EDID slot for the Radiance would be sensational! With all these funny experiments, it usually doesn't take long for me to realise, why I don't really like a HDfury in my chain. Apart from multple handshakes where I sit in the dark for up to a minute, it's the fear that at some point this will kill my lamp iris.


----------



## dlinsley

gadgetfreaky said:


> 0943 just moves EDID audio to common right? Im getting dolby atmos on my apple 4k, but not on the roku ultra 4k. I'm only getting dolby digital plus on the roku.


Sorry, I missed that you were getting it on the Apple. On the Roku ensure you have audio at Auto and not Highest.



gadgetfreaky said:


> wow, this is what I'd love to figure out, somehow trigger the projector to change to one of the custom picture settings and light output at 100 when it see HDR content, but when it's SDR, it's the other custom picture setting (gamma 2.2, light output to 70%). how did you do that?





bobof said:


> What display is it?
> 
> If it is a recent JVC, and you set your source devices to output REC709 for SDR and REC2020 for HDR, and you're happy to use one of a limited selection of modes for HDR, then you can use the "HDR flag" option to trigger a different projector mode.


To expand on that, for the current JVCs (maybe the same for the previous gen or two where they added this) go to Input Signal -> HDR Settings -> HDR10 Auto Select and select which picture mode you want to use when the HDR flag is seen. The JVC will revert to the previous picture mode when the HDR flag is removed. On the Lumagen in CMS1 set the HDR flag to Enable. This works great to auto switch between SDR and HDR.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> To expand on that, for the current JVCs (maybe the same for the previous gen or two where they added this) go to Input Signal -> HDR Settings -> HDR10 Auto Select and select which picture mode you want to use when the HDR flag is seen. The JVC will revert to the previous picture mode when the HDR flag is removed. On the Lumagen in CMS1 set the HDR flag to Enable. This works great to auto switch between SDR and HDR.


To further expand on your expansion; I don't use this any more and one reason is that I'm not convinced in JVC's logic with tracking the position of the iris vs the auto mode. On my own X7900 if I shut down in auto (HDR) and power up in auto (SDR) or vice versa, the iris doesn't actually move and it leaves the mechanism unsynchronized with the UI. It can cause gear grinding the next time you change, and incorrect light level output.

I'm pretty sure this is a bug in JVCs firmware but I've not managed to get others to confirm.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

dgkula said:


> Thanks for the feedback - I figured out how to get the Shield to default to SDR 709 for the menu and play HDR 2020 as required by content.


I'm considering moving from appletv 4k and roku 4k to the shield. what was the setting? Pro/cons? can you watch movies you have in 4k from itunes?I unfortunately invested in a few movies there.

And can you have specific apps run at 1080p? I have movies on my plex server that are 1080p, or is there a programmable quick button to switch between sr709 4k to 1080p? would be good to watch netflix/amazon/hulu content thare just "HD" 1080p in 1080p and have the lumagen upscale instead of the shield. I have control4 so can program something.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> What display is it?
> 
> If it is a recent JVC, and you set your source devices to output REC709 for SDR and REC2020 for HDR, and you're happy to use one of a limited selection of modes for HDR, then you can use the "HDR flag" option to trigger a different projector mode.
> 
> If it is not, then you effectively need a "control system". The Lumagen can be set up to automatically output status updates on its serial port when certain things happen (input format change, aspect ratio change, etc). I use a Raspberry Pi connected to the serial port as my control system. I built a small script that parses the automatic output and based on the content of the output either change modes in my projector (control over IP) or adjust my screen masking (again, control over IP). That was a DIY project - I used it as an opportunity to learn a bit of Python. If that isn't your idea of fun, then a custom install integrator should be able to implement this sort of thing using an off-the-shelf control / automation system. If you already have such an automation system in place then it would likely be possible to extend it to do this via programming.
> 
> With the JVC projector you are lucky that you have the option of controlling it over IP or RS232 or IR. For some displays your only option might be to have the control system see the output of the Lumagen status updates and emit some IR, pretending to be a remote control.
> 
> Another option is the use of an HDFury box like a Vertex, maestro, diva, vertex2. I'm hesitant to recommend this as it adds another HDMI device in the chain which I don't think is ever a good idea if there is an option not to, and the use of it gets very complicated if the Lumagen is being used to modify the output to SDR2020 or similar - as the information needed may no longer be present at the Lumagen output, you might need to be operating at the source device's output instead.
> 
> If you provide more information about your system and display, any control system you already have, and your own technical ability I could perhaps suggest a good way forward for you.


I have control4 which controls my BenQ LK990 projector vis RS232 so I can definitely have it change settings based on rules. I havnet had my installer connect to the lumagen via rs232/serial yet. I wanted to figure out what I want them to program first. Still dialing everything in, trying to decide if I keep my appletv4k or roku4k or move to the shield. Each one has it's strength/weaknesses. I might watch everything on the appletv, and set the roku at 1080p and have my plex app just on that one so I can have the lumagen upscale my 1080p movies vs the appletv/roku upscaling..

I want to get atmos when I can as well. I have an HDFury 4k Vertex that is not connected since I got the Lumagen. I just ordered 2 more inputs for the Lumagen so I can have 4 inputs, output of the lumagen goes straight to my projector. This definitely reduced all the dumb netflix handshake delays I was having. I was gonna hook up appletV, roku 4k(set at 1080p for plex, chromecast ( I'm an android house, so sometimes I want to cast pictures or oculus), and then my oppo 203 of which I might switch out for the Panny UB9000. downside of this btw and not running thru the receiver is I don't know the audio mode the receiver is in (atmos or not), and I have to run upstairs to look at the rack, nor do i know the volume which i'm getting used to.

What would I do with the HDFury? Could the control4 see a signal from the lumagen and automatically switch the projector mode? Is there a delay though? would hate to be browsing on netflix jumping between SDR709 and HDR and it keeps togging the projector. As of now I was going to upgrade the remote to the control4 to their new color UI button one and have a button that says HDR , Non-HDR and manually do it, and then everytime the system turns out default it back to non HDR but this isn't ideal.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> I have control4 which controls my BenQ LK990 projector vis RS232 so I can definitely have it change settings based on rules. I havnet had my installer connect to the lumagen via rs232/serial yet. I wanted to figure out what I want them to program first. Still dialing everything in, trying to decide if I keep my appletv4k or roku4k or move to the shield. Each one has it's strength/weaknesses. I might watch everything on the appletv, and set the roku at 1080p and have my plex app just on that one so I can have the lumagen upscale my 1080p movies vs the appletv/roku upscaling..
> 
> I want to get atmos when I can as well. I have an HDFury 4k Vertex that is not connected since I got the Lumagen. I just ordered 2 more inputs for the Lumagen so I can have 4 inputs, output of the lumagen goes straight to my projector. This definitely reduced all the dumb netflix handshake delays I was having. I was gonna hook up appletV, roku 4k(set at 1080p for plex, chromecast ( I'm an android house, so sometimes I want to cast pictures or oculus), and then my oppo 203 of which I might switch out for the Panny UB9000. downside of this btw and not running thru the receiver is I don't know the audio mode the receiver is in (atmos or not), and I have to run upstairs to look at the rack, nor do i know the volume which i'm getting used to.
> 
> What would I do with the HDFury? Could the control4 see a signal from the lumagen and automatically switch the projector mode? Is there a delay though? would hate to be browsing on netflix jumping between SDR709 and HDR and it keeps togging the projector. As of now I was going to upgrade the remote to the control4 to their new color UI button one and have a button that says HDR , Non-HDR and manually do it, and then everytime the system turns out default it back to non HDR but this isn't ideal.


If you have a Control4, don't do anything with the HDfury. Do it all in Lumagen. Have the Control4 watch the Lumagen status updates on the serial output and control your projector (and anything else in your system like masking) appropriately.

The Lumagen also has a programmable OSD overlay, so if your programmer is clever and your AVR is suitably equipped you can parse the output of your AVR over IP or serial and configure your control system to present on the Lumagen OSD overlay text information about your audio system (even a basic bar volume display). That way you don't need to check it at the unit.

Like all these things, the results with a control system will depend on how much effort you're willing to pay for your programmer to put in, and how skilled they are...

The RS232 guide is here:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf
The OSD commands are ZB,ZC,ZT.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

dlinsley said:


> Sorry, I missed that you were getting it on the Apple. On the Roku ensure you have audio at Auto and not Highest.
> 
> 
> Yes, i've tried every mode on the roku, I can't seem to get atmos on the roku, only on the appletv 4k. I think it's the lumagen, as this wasn't the problem when i had the roku first attached to my arcam receiver.


----------



## dlinsley

gadgetfreaky said:


> Yes, i've tried every mode on the roku, I can't seem to get atmos on the roku, only on the appletv 4k. I think it's the lumagen, as this wasn't the problem when i had the roku first attached to my arcam receiver.


I just started S2E1 of Jack Ryan and my Anthem MRX1120 front panel shows it is receiving Dolby Atmos. My Roku Ultra has Audio set to Auto and HDMI/SPDIF set to Auto. The Roku goes into an 18G input of the Lumagen (4446 model) and the 18G video output goes to my projector. The audio out of the Lumagen is then connected to the Anthem, and was also previously configured with the Menu 0943 option. I'd suggest emailing Lumagen support if you haven't done so already.


----------



## mandragora

dgkula said:


> Thanks for the feedback - I figured out how to get the Shield to default to SDR 709 for the menu and play HDR 2020 as required by content.


hello there would you be so kind to explain what you did ? I've never been able to setup correctly my shield and I've been always using my oppo 203 to browse and play stuff from my NAS .

thanks in advance!


----------



## Yoxxy

mandragora said:


> hello there would you be so kind to explain what you did ? I've never been able to setup correctly my shield and I've been always using my oppo 203 to browse and play stuff from my NAS .
> 
> thanks in advance!


There's a setting under display that says auto colorspace switching, just turn it on. Kodi will pick colorspace for 2020 and HDR when those files are played. 709 will be displayed on menus by default.


----------



## mandragora

Yoxxy said:


> There's a setting under display that says auto colorspace switching, just turn it on. Kodi will pick colorspace for 2020 and HDR when those files are played. 709 will be displayed on menus by default.


Thanks ;-)


----------



## dgkula

gadgetfreaky said:


> dlinsley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I missed that you were getting it on the Apple. On the Roku ensure you have audio at Auto and not Highest.
> 
> 
> Yes, i've tried every mode on the roku, I can't seem to get atmos on the roku, only on the appletv 4k. I think it's the lumagen, as this wasn't the problem when i had the roku first attached to my arcam receiver.
> 
> 
> 
> On the Roku forums, some users suggested that a factory reset was what enabled Atmos on Prime. I am getting Atmos on Prime without the reset.
Click to expand...


----------



## tnaik4

i just ordered Radiance Pro 4242 18gb, i have a question regarding using it with my HTPC.

If i want to use madVR for all my movies, but use the Radiance for my pc gaming for DTM / 3DLUT , how would i go about doing that ? 

Also is there any issues using the Radiance with an HTPC to generate 3dlut to use with games?

of course ill be also using the radiance for everything else ( ps4-firetv etc.. ) . 

Thank you.


----------



## bobof

tnaik4 said:


> i just ordered Radiance Pro 4242 18gb, i have a question regarding using it with my HTPC.
> 
> If i want to use madVR for all my movies, but use the Radiance for my pc gaming for DTM / 3DLUT , how would i go about doing that ?
> 
> Also is there any issues using the Radiance with an HTPC to generate 3dlut to use with games?
> 
> of course ill be also using the radiance for everything else ( ps4-firetv etc.. ) .
> 
> Thank you.


In the output menu you can set which of 8 CMS slots are used for output / input combos and modes. Default is CMS 0 for SDR709 and 3D, CMS 1 for 2020 (HDR and SDR). These CMS slots store the 3DLUT, 1DLUT, output format, tone mapping settings, etc. You would set up your desired 3DLUT and DTM in CMS 0 and 1 for your sources, and then for the HTPC input switch it to some of the other CMS slots configured to not do DTM or have a 3LUT. You can do this for all or some input formats. You can also have separate memory banks that would allow you to have the option to have DTM and 3DLUT enabled / disabled quickly on the HTPC input if you wanted to try it for comparison.

Having the Lumagen in circuit for the HTPC or gaming use might be something you'd prefer to avoid, depending on your point of view. Latency through the Lumagen is non-zero (I don't have measures of it as I don't care for gaming and it doesn't much interest me, maybe someone else has this info). Also note that there isn't as far as I'm aware even configured to not apply DTM and 3DLUT, the path through the Lumagen isn't 100% bit perfect to 12 bits. It's likely all but invisible, but measurable.


----------



## tnaik4

bobof said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i just ordered Radiance Pro 4242 18gb, i have a question regarding using it with my HTPC.
> 
> If i want to use madVR for all my movies, but use the Radiance for my pc gaming for DTM / 3DLUT , how would i go about doing that ?
> 
> Also is there any issues using the Radiance with an HTPC to generate 3dlut to use with games?
> 
> of course ill be also using the radiance for everything else ( ps4-firetv etc.. ) .
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> In the output menu you can set which of 8 CMS slots are used for output / input combos and modes. Default is CMS 0 for SDR709 and 3D, CMS 1 for 2020 (HDR and SDR). These CMS slots store the 3DLUT, 1DLUT, output format, tone mapping settings, etc. You would set up your desired 3DLUT and DTM in CMS 0 and 1 for your sources, and then for the HTPC input switch it to some of the other CMS slots configured to not do DTM or have a 3LUT. You can do this for all or some input formats. You can also have separate memory banks that would allow you to have the option to have DTM and 3DLUT enabled / disabled quickly on the HTPC input if you wanted to try it for comparison.
> 
> Having the Lumagen in circuit for the HTPC or gaming use might be something you'd prefer to avoid, depending on your point of view. Latency through the Lumagen is non-zero (I don't have measures of it as I don't care for gaming and it doesn't much interest me, maybe someone else has this info). Also note that there isn't as far as I'm aware even configured to not apply DTM and 3DLUT, the path through the Lumagen isn't 100% bit perfect to 12 bits. It's likely all but invisible, but measurable.
Click to expand...

I did ask Lumagen directly concerning gaming and they said that the Radiance pro adds very little latency and wouldnt matter for non twitch games, i m not a competetive gamer and i will use my monitor for MMOs that i play. If it adds around 20ms that would be fine but if its up close to 100 that woule be an issue, hopefully someone who knows can chime in.
I want to apply DTM and 3DLUT when pc gaming but turn it off when using madVR DTM , i can maybe use a different output on my 1080ti direcrly to the AVR without going through the Radiance just for madVR watching but it would be more convernient to just turn a setting on and off.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

tnaik4 said:


> I did ask Lumagen directly concerning gaming and they said that the Radiance pro adds very little latency and wouldnt matter for non twitch games, i m not a competetive gamer and i will use my monitor for MMOs that i play. If it adds around 20ms that would be fine but if its up close to 100 that woule be an issue, hopefully someone who knows can chime in.
> I want to apply DTM and 3DLUT when pc gaming but turn it off when using madVR DTM , i can maybe use a different output on my 1080ti direcrly to the AVR without going through the Radiance just for madVR watching but it would be more convernient to just turn a setting on and off.



you can use different memories to have the on and off DTM/CMS for the HTPC


Latency is around 24ms in your scenario (pretty sure that is what Jim said ages ago) I have many gamers in UK who use their Pro's and play online with no problems.


----------



## mandragora

Gordon Fraser said:


> ... Latency is around 24ms in your scenario (pretty sure that is what Jim said ages ago) I have many gamers in UK who use their Pro's and play online with no problems.


As @Gordon said I had no issues whatsoever with my ps4pro hooked into one of the 18ghz inputs of the Pro


----------



## tnaik4

Gordon Fraser said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did ask Lumagen directly concerning gaming and they said that the Radiance pro adds very little latency and wouldnt matter for non twitch games, i m not a competetive gamer and i will use my monitor for MMOs that i play. If it adds around 20ms that would be fine but if its up close to 100 that woule be an issue, hopefully someone who knows can chime in.
> I want to apply DTM and 3DLUT when pc gaming but turn it off when using madVR DTM , i can maybe use a different output on my 1080ti direcrly to the AVR without going through the Radiance just for madVR watching but it would be more convernient to just turn a setting on and off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can use different memories to have the on and off DTM/CMS for the HTPC
> 
> 
> Latency is around 24ms in your scenario (pretty sure that is what Jim said ages ago) I have many gamers in UK who use their Pro's and play online with no problems.
Click to expand...

Hi Gordon, just to clarify that i dont want to use it as a passthrough for games, i bought it to take advantage of 3DLUT / DTM with PC games.
So the latency is no issue with the above processing working during ganeplay ?

Thank you.


----------



## SJHT

What are the preferred settings for gaming? They should implement back in the gaming mode from older models if possible. Turn it on and it configures for the least delay.... All new titles are usually 4K HDR. SJ


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Lumagen Output 3840x2160p at 23.98Hz, my Benq LK990 picture has a slight shake to it. This doesn't happen at 59.94
manual says it supports 2160/24P 3840 x 2160 Vertical Frequency 24 Hz Horizontal 54 kHz Pixel Frequency 297MHz


I've tried changing every toggle I could find on the lumagen and can't get it to be a non shaky picture at 23.98 or 24 Hz. 25 I'm find. 

when I do Menu 0870 to turn on auto output mode and the roku or appletv goes from a tv show to a movie that's in 24p, output either goes to 23.98 or 24 depending on content.

When I do MENU 0874 Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off

it'll take any 24 or 23.98 content to 59.94 and picture is perfect. So that means the lumagen is doing the 3:2 pulldown right? shouldn't I be watching things at 24 if it's a 24 content?

I was looking at changing the Display Timing setting? but dont know what to change.. thoughts?


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Guys, whats the benefit of using Lumagen with the newer JVC projectors (RS1000/RS2000/RS3000) which have in built scaling modes for Panamorh DCR lenses? Is there any post or thread with that information that you can point me to?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

of;58867404]If you have a Control4, don't do anything with the HDfury. Do it all in Lumagen. Have the Control4 watch the Lumagen status updates on the serial output and control your projector (and anything else in your system like masking) appropriately.

The Lumagen also has a programmable OSD overlay, so if your programmer is clever and your AVR is suitably equipped you can parse the output of your AVR over IP or serial and configure your control system to present on the Lumagen OSD overlay text information about your audio system (even a basic bar volume display). That way you don't need to check it at the unit.

Like all these things, the results with a control system will depend on how much effort you're willing to pay for your programmer to put in, and how skilled they are...

The RS232 guide is here:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf
The OSD commands are ZB,ZC,ZT.[/QUOTE]

Wow, thanks, I'll ask, that would be awesome if the control4 can watch the lumagen status update, and maybe if it sees a status update for 5seconds it switches the projector status. I figure it has to be a few seconds in case when channel surfing on netflix previews, etc it doesn't keep triggering the change?

why doesn't Lumagen pull in the receiver OSD and push it out as an option? I have an Arcam 390.


----------



## SJHT

gadgetfreaky said:


> of;58867404]
> 
> why doesn't Lumagen pull in the receiver OSD and push it out as an option? I have an Arcam 390.


Something like that (just for volume) will be part of PIP/POP whenever released. SJ


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Wow, thanks, I'll ask, that would be awesome if the control4 can watch the lumagen status update, and maybe if it sees a status update for 5seconds it switches the projector status. I figure it has to be a few seconds in case when channel surfing on netflix previews, etc it doesn't keep triggering the change?
> 
> why doesn't Lumagen pull in the receiver OSD and push it out as an option? I have an Arcam 390.


I'm sure it can, it will be a matter of whether your integrator can do it and whether you want to pay for it! 

I don't have any delay on mine as there don't seem to be any situations with my own devices where things switch from HDR to SDR modes and back frequently. Might not be a bad idea though. The JVC API kind of does this for you as it tends to go to sleep a lot when mode changes etc are happening - you often have to sit in your script waiting for it to wake up again.

I have my Lumagen set up both ways. I have the HDMI out of the AVR connected to one of the inputs on the Lumagen, with a couple of tricky devices on the AVR inputs (ATV4k, Samsung UHD player). I then also have other devices connected direct to the Lumagen for a pure video path. Having this setup does have the side benefit of being able to access the Arcam UI pretty easily.

My receiver is an AVR550 so pretty similar to yours.


----------



## Kris Deering

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Guys, whats the benefit of using Lumagen with the newer JVC projectors (RS1000/RS2000/RS3000) which have in built scaling modes for Panamorh DCR lenses? Is there any post or thread with that information that you can point me to?


Better calibration options, better scaling, aspect ratio support for more input aspect ratios than JVC's 2, better tone mapping, completely automates aspect ratio control so far less tedious than the JVC option. I'm sure there is more, just off the top of my head. I've had plenty of clients that have come over to get a Radiance demo thinking that the tone mapping was the only reason they were considering a Radiance. Once I show them how much easier aspect ratio control is with a scope screen (regardless of whether you're using a lens or not) that typically gets them every time.

I have this all setup for my client's specific system before the Lumagen ever arrives at their house when I sell them. It is easily the feature that most of them rave about afterward, right after the tone mapping.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

gadgetfreaky said:


> Lumagen Output 3840x2160p at 23.98Hz, my Benq LK990 picture has a slight shake to it. This doesn't happen at 59.94
> manual says it supports 2160/24P 3840 x 2160 Vertical Frequency 24 Hz Horizontal 54 kHz Pixel Frequency 297MHz
> 
> 
> I've tried changing every toggle I could find on the lumagen and can't get it to be a non shaky picture at 23.98 or 24 Hz. 25 I'm find.
> 
> when I do Menu 0870 to turn on auto output mode and the roku or appletv goes from a tv show to a movie that's in 24p, output either goes to 23.98 or 24 depending on content.
> 
> When I do MENU 0874 Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
> 
> it'll take any 24 or 23.98 content to 59.94 and picture is perfect. So that means the lumagen is doing the 3:2 pulldown right? shouldn't I be watching things at 24 if it's a 24 content?
> 
> I was looking at changing the Display Timing setting? but dont know what to change.. thoughts?


Ugh, looks like it's not the lumagen, either the projector or the HDMi cable. Hooking up directly the roku/appletv/ oppo 203 playin 24Hz I get it. I'm running a 65ft Fiber RUI PRO HDMI cable of which will be really expensive/hard to replace, as I'd have to snake a new cable thru conduit. Albeit I guess it can be done. 
I thought that was the best long cable out there? Ballun's work? anything new yet for distance?

I gotta get the ladder out tomorrow to try to connect the roku directly to the projector on a shorter 6ft hdmi cable to confirm in fact it's the long cable run to make sure it's no the projector.

So what's the downside of not being able to play 24Hz? Am I better off just forcing 60Hz at the lumagen and letting the lumagen do the conversion? Or should I disable frame rate match on all the devices and output 60Hz? appetv/roku/bluray. I think the only downside of that is dolby vision is at 30Hz? Is there a way to only enable all other frame rates on the lumagen EXCEPT for 24? 25 seems to work as well as 30.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Ugh, looks like it's not the lumagen, either the projector or the HDMi cable. Hooking up directly the roku/appletv/ oppo 203 playin 24Hz I get it. I'm running a 65ft Fiber RUI PRO HDMI cable of which will be really expensive/hard to replace, as I'd have to snake a new cable thru conduit. Albeit I guess it can be done.
> I thought that was the best long cable out there? Ballun's work? anything new yet for distance?
> 
> I gotta get the ladder out tomorrow to try to connect the roku directly to the projector on a shorter 6ft hdmi cable to confirm in fact it's the long cable run to make sure it's no the projector.
> 
> So what's the downside of not being able to play 24Hz? Am I better off just forcing 60Hz at the lumagen and letting the lumagen do the conversion? Or should I disable frame rate match on all the devices and output 60Hz? appetv/roku/bluray. I think the only downside of that is dolby vision is at 30Hz? Is there a way to only enable all other frame rates on the lumagen EXCEPT for 24? 25 seems to work as well as 30.


The Roku device must be small enough to take up to the projector and test with an alternative cable?
I wouldn't be hopeful though, sounds to me to be likely something to do with the PJ, or perhaps the setup of the player. 60p increases requirements on the cable (usually, all other things equal), so if 60p works fine it is unlikely that.

Doesn't sound like something you should be planning to live with, unless you have no route to support with the projector?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kris Deering said:


> Better calibration options, better scaling, aspect ratio support for more input aspect ratios than JVC's 2, better tone mapping, completely automates aspect ratio control so far less tedious than the JVC option. I'm sure there is more, just off the top of my head. I've had plenty of clients that have come over to get a Radiance demo thinking that the tone mapping was the only reason they were considering a Radiance. Once I show them how much easier aspect ratio control is with a scope screen (regardless of whether you're using a lens or not) that typically gets them every time.
> 
> I have this all setup for my client's specific system before the Lumagen ever arrives at their house when I sell them. It is easily the feature that most of them rave about afterward, right after the tone mapping.



indeed, i went to hep a UK dealer with a video problem where there were huge sync times and his client was pissed at it. I fixed that with a Pro and then when the client came back from a business meeting we showed him what i'd done. I'd set auto aspect on and when the image jumped from 16:9 to fill his scope screen when the film started he jumped up and said, "what just happened?" I explained the feature and he said, "wow, it's worth the money just for that!"...i retorted, i needed more customers like him! lol...


----------



## JustMike

*1.85 vs 1.85A vs Alt + 1.85?*

Greetings,

I have my Radiance Pro set up to apply various image shift settings depending on the aspect ratio of whatever I'm watching. My screen has motorized top masking only, so what I do is apply appropriate shift settings for letterboxed content so that I can move the letterboxed area down to the bottom of the screen, and then drop the top mask to line up with the top of the image. I trigger aspect ratio changes via my Control4 system, driven either by the Kaleidescape system's aspect ratio cues, or via manual button presses if I'm watching another source. Works great, and has for years. I can also select aspect ratios on the Pro with the IR remote, of course (but this doesn't trigger my masking system).

I noticed the other day, though, that my 1.85 ratio looked incorrect, and I can't figure out what's going on. I know that this _was_ set up properly at some point, so I'm wondering if there's been a change (intentional or otherwise) in what the Pro is doing. What it looks like is that the image is appropriately shifted, but then it is additionally compressed vertically by a small amount. 

I have presets for other ratios including 2.20, 2.40 and 2.76, and all ratios other than 1.85 work perfectly.

After much futzing around, I found that I could make things look correct by pressing Alt on the remote followed by 1.85. So, I altered the Control4 programming to send this sequence as well, and now my masking looks correct. However, this has never been necessary before, so I'm wondering what might have changed to cause this.

Letterbox Zoom is turned off, by the way, and in fact, the Control4 sends the 1.85NZ command to ensure that it's always off.

I'm also confused by some labeling. When I press the 1.85 button on the IR remote and then go into Menu->Input 4A->In Configs->4K->4K-0, the "Sizing" item is labeled "Sizing-1.85A". What's the A? That A appears whether or not I simply press 1.85, or Alt + 1.85. And ditto for 1080.

My Pro is running 042119. I know this is not current, but it was decent looking for the dynamic tone mapping and I don't have enough time to keep up on the discussions of the various DTM releases, so I haven't wanted to blunder into a newer release that might cause DTM issues for me.

Thanks for any clarification anyone can offer!


----------



## Kris Deering

The 1.85A was for anamorphic DVD back in the day. So the proper one is alt+1.85 for today’s displays.


----------



## mandragora

Gordon Fraser said:


> indeed, i went to hep a UK dealer with a video problem where there were huge sync times and his client was pissed at it. I fixed that with a Pro and then when the client came back from a business meeting we showed him what i'd done. I'd set auto aspect on and when the image jumped from 16:9 to fill his scope screen when the film started he jumped up and said, "what just happened?" I explained the feature and he said, "wow, it's worth the money just for that!"...i retorted, i needed more customers like him! lol...



hey All Lumagen experts ... could you please point me in the direction where I can get info on how to setup this ? ...
@Gordon I wish I was still in the UK and ask your assistance ;-)

Ben


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mandragora said:


> hey All Lumagen experts ... could you please point me in the direction where I can get info on how to setup this ? ...
> 
> @*Gordon* I wish I was still in the UK and ask your assistance ;-)
> 
> Ben



You can still ask my assitance....


MENU>OK>OPTIONS>AspectSetup> Auto Aspect>OK> set Auto aspect Control to HDMI then you might want to turn on Sticky Aspect override


Sticky aspect override allows you to manually force it to stay in a specific aspect until the content changes format, at which point it will revert to auto aspect. This is useful for films that bounce around between different aspects within one scene...


remember to save this once you've done it so it sticks in memory


----------



## mandragora

Gordon Fraser said:


> You can still ask my assitance....


your customer care has always been second to none !!! 

thanks Gordon !


----------



## JustMike

Kris Deering said:


> The 1.85A was for anamorphic DVD back in the day. So the proper one is alt+1.85 for today’s displays.


Thanks, Kris!

Any insight as to whether something has changed here, though? I've never had to hit Alt+1.85 in years of using first a Radiance XS and now a Radiance Pro, but now I'm seeing this vertical compression happening.

Also, even when I do hit Alt+1.85, when I go into the menus, it is still showing me "1.85A".

Thanks again.


----------



## tnaik4

gadgetfreaky said:


> Lumagen Output 3840x2160p at 23.98Hz, my Benq LK990 picture has a slight shake to it. This doesn't happen at 59.94
> manual says it supports 2160/24P 3840 x 2160 Vertical Frequency 24 Hz Horizontal 54 kHz Pixel Frequency 297MHz
> 
> 
> I've tried changing every toggle I could find on the lumagen and can't get it to be a non shaky picture at 23.98 or 24 Hz. 25 I'm find.
> 
> when I do Menu 0870 to turn on auto output mode and the roku or appletv goes from a tv show to a movie that's in 24p, output either goes to 23.98 or 24 depending on content.
> 
> When I do MENU 0874 Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 18 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off
> 
> it'll take any 24 or 23.98 content to 59.94 and picture is perfect. So that means the lumagen is doing the 3:2 pulldown right? shouldn't I be watching things at 24 if it's a 24 content?
> 
> I was looking at changing the Display Timing setting? but dont know what to change.. thoughts?


I m not sure if anyone answered you , bit it is not the lumagen, i have the LK970 and when i took it to do the firmware updates it started having that shaking image at 23/24hz , and it doesnt do it at 25+ hz.
So i reverted back to 1.0.1 and everything works perfectly.


----------



## tnaik4

Guys when creating 3dlut with HTPC, should i use video level full (0-255) in my nvidia control panel and limited ( 16-235 ) in lumagen and projector ?
With madVR it is recommended to use this combination so i m not sure if it the same concept with lumagen.

Also does Lumagen have an option to detect black bars and shift the image to the bottom of the screen automatically?


----------



## Craig Peer

LJG said:


> I guess there were a few bugs discovered, looking forward to this release


If it takes much longer, it will be a Festivus Miracle !


----------



## Kris Deering

The release is just about ready. It had some rather significant updates in it that changed a lot of the way things were being done under the hood. This revealed a few issues that have been getting dealt with. The issues are small (I doubt hardly anyone would have noticed them), but Lumagen wanted to be sure to get them resolved before hand. I have actually suggested that Lumagen updates its default settings for the tone map to different settings now because of the performance is quite different (in a good way). 

I think most will be quite pleased with the end result. It eliminated all of the little niggles I see with some really difficult material that I thought would never get fixed (due to the nature of how something dynamic works with no way to frame buffer). Color reproduction is also quite a bit better. 

So hopefully not too much longer!


----------



## Craig Peer

Thanks Kris!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> So hopefully not too much longer!


Just in time for Kris to visit my home for a calibration...looking forward to it Kris...


----------



## SJHT

I know Kris will let his customers know if we need to make any changes whenever this new firmware drops...


----------



## jh901

Kris Deering said:


> The release is just about ready. It had some rather significant updates in it that changed a lot of the way things were being done under the hood.


Can you ask your contact for their opinion of histogram shaped tone mapping (HSTM) algorithms? I suppose I'm wondering if Lumagen's upcoming DTM improvements are virtually insignificant tweaks compare to the advances in MadVR.


----------



## Kris Deering

jh901 said:


> Can you ask your contact for their opinion of histogram shaped tone mapping (HSTM) algorithms? I suppose I'm wondering if Lumagen's upcoming DTM improvements are virtually insignificant tweaks compare to the advances in MadVR.


HSTM is just an approach to tone mapping. I imagine Madshi is taking advantage of the fact that he can frame buffer, the Lumagen cannot do this. I'm excited to see what it brings to the image, but until I can do a good comparison side by side, it is hard to say how much something like that will make a difference. It sounds (from what I've read) like he is looking at local contrast differences and enhancing them (this is what Darbee did). 

For the Lumagen we have been doing comparisons with a industry professional on the authoring/mastering side that is using a Lumagen with a Dolby Cinema projector and comparing the results of the Lumagen tone mapping not only to their in house regrades but also to a Pulsar in the same room to see how the balance is maintained. He's been testing for Lumagen for some time now and has said that the tone mapping Lumagen is performing now is better that what their own tools outside of Dolby's full grading can do and in many respects they like it more than the regrade. So I'd say that is a nice reinforcement of the performance I am seeing here as well. The advancements in Lumagen's tone map over the last month or so have been pretty significant and the full fruit of that will be released with this upcoming build.

I'm very excited to see what the Envy brings to the table and doing some tone mapping comparisons. I expect to see differences between the two for sure, the question is how much difference is there. I am also looking forward to seeing their scaling performance both for upscaling and downscaling. I've always heard such high praise, so I'm excited to see for myself at some point.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> I know Kris will let his customers know if we need to make any changes whenever this new firmware drops...


Changes are not particularly necessary, but with the new build you can run the DPAD and DMAX more aggressively if you want. The existing settings would be fine though and still provide great results.


----------



## jh901

Kris Deering said:


> HSTM is just an approach to tone mapping. I imagine Madshi is taking advantage of the fact that he can frame buffer, the Lumagen cannot do this. I'm excited to see what it brings to the image, but until I can do a good comparison side by side, it is hard to say how much something like that will make a difference. It sounds (from what I've read) like he is looking at local contrast differences and enhancing them (this is what Darbee did).
> 
> For the Lumagen we have been doing comparisons with a industry professional on the authoring/mastering side that is using a Lumagen with a Dolby Cinema projector and comparing the results of the Lumagen tone mapping not only to their in house regrades but also to a Pulsar in the same room to see how the balance is maintained.


Interesting. I'll be following the Lumagen thread as well. If your industry pro works in a major studio home video department other than Sony, then I'd sure like to know if they intend to figure out how to catch up with them (for back catalog UHD excellence).



Kris Deering said:


> I am also looking forward to seeing their scaling performance both for upscaling and downscaling. I've always heard such high praise, so I'm excited to see for myself at some point.


I'll be screening more 1080P Blu-ray than UHD for years to come, so this is a big deal for me. If one or the other has an insurmountable advantage, then I'll want to know!


----------



## Kris Deering

jh901 said:


> Interesting. I'll be following the Lumagen thread as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be screening more 1080P Blu-ray than UHD for years to come, so this is a big deal for me. If one or the other has an insurmountable advantage, then I'll want to know!


The same industry engineer did comparisons of the upscaling of the Lumagen, MadVR and their in house scaling (which is NOT on the fly). Their system takes a 4K source and downscales to 1080p and then use analysis to see how close the upscale is to the original from different solutions. Their solution (which is what a lot of studios use for their 4K HDR releases that are NOT from a true 4K DI) score really high, but again is not an on the fly solution like Lumagen and MadVR or other consumer resources. When comparing MadVR (HTPC version on a $20K in studio PC and Lumagen to their solution that didn't do nearly as well, but I would expect that given they are a totally different process. When comparing MadVR to the Lumagen directly the difference reported by the analysis was barely anything with the Lumagen scoring I think 2 points higher. MadVR did better with downscaling and one other type of scaling though (I don't remember off hand how much difference). This test also doesn't take into account subjective preference for any display enhancements, which I know MadVR has, so subjectively that may give different results to consumers comparing directly with different enhancements engaged.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Changes are not particularly necessary, but with the new build you can run the DPAD and DMAX more aggressively if you want. The existing settings would be fine though and still provide great results.




Which setting is DMAX?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Changes are not particularly necessary, but with the new build you can run the DPAD and DMAX more aggressively if you want. The existing settings would be fine though and still provide great results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which setting is DMAX?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Sorry, Display Max Light/Ratio. Basically you can run a more aggressive setting for what your light level is without artifacts for those that like a brighter image.


----------



## madshi

(I try not to post in this thread, but gotta chime in here for a second. I apologize for the intrusion.)



Kris Deering said:


> Their system takes a 4K source and downscales to 1080p and then use analysis to see how close the upscale is to the original


Which is what every scientific paper about upscaling does to compare the quality of different algorithms. And this is exactly the type of artificial test where neural network upscaling shines, because that's exactly what it was trained for. Consequently, I would bet a lot on that the industry engineer didn't actually use madVR's highest quality (neural network) upscaling in his test.


----------



## Kris Deering

madshi said:


> (I try not to post in this thread, but gotta chime in here for a second. I apologize for the intrusion.)
> 
> 
> Which is what every scientific paper about upscaling does to compare the quality of different algorithms. And this is exactly the type of artificial test where neural network upscaling shines, because that's exactly what it was trained for. Consequently, I would bet a lot on that the industry engineer didn't actually use madVR's highest quality (neural network) upscaling in his test.


Hey Madshi! That very well may be. I was not there for this testing (I have never been in their production suite), so I can't vouch at all for how MadVR or the Lumagen he was using was setup.


----------



## Craig Peer

Waiting for this new firmware is now a bit like waiting for Xmas - and it will hopefully be a nice end of the year holiday present from Lumagen !


----------



## Eventidal

Yeah, new firmware please!


----------



## Kris Deering

Because of the changes in this firmware there are going to be changes to the Radiance as a whole. The defaults for tone mapping are going to be different (based on results we are seeing) and the HDR quick menu will be simplified greatly in the USER menus because most of the adjustments just don't need to be touched or shouldn't be by people that don't know what they are doing or what the settings actually change. Some other small changes were made by request including the ability to use a quick key to enter the test patterns now and some other small changes. With these changes being done, some checks on the tone mapping and the holidays, things are going slower, but I expect we'll see this one released soon.


----------



## thebland

Hi Kris

So, is a recalibration necessary after installation? Or if defaults are changed, what’s the plan for us more lay people?! 

Thanks for the intel.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Just to let people know, Lumagen has announced a price increase, starting January 1st. Also the 4240 and 4440 are being dropped from the lineup.


----------



## Karl Maga

Mike Garrett said:


> Just to let people know, Lumagen has announced a price increase, starting January 1st. Also the 4240 and 4440 are being dropped from the lineup.


Thank you Mike, I was contemplating a purchase and was considering delaying until after the holidays.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Karl Maga said:


> Thank you Mike, I was contemplating a purchase and was considering delaying until after the holidays.


I figure there are several people in your shoes.


----------



## Ash Sharma

It is nice to see a price increase and dropping lowest price units from product line - displays Lumagen's confidence in their product especially as competition is setting in with over VP's and projector in built Tone Mapping.


----------



## D6500Ken

Kris Deering said:


> Because of the changes in this firmware there are going to be changes to the Radiance as a whole. The defaults for tone mapping are going to be different (based on results we are seeing) and the HDR quick menu will be simplified greatly in the USER menus because most of the adjustments just don't need to be touched or shouldn't be by people that don't know what they are doing or what the settings actually change. Some other small changes were made by request including the ability to use a quick key to enter the test patterns now and some other small changes. With these changes being done, some checks on the tone mapping and the holidays, things are going slower, but I expect we'll see this one released soon.


I'm glad to hear that some of the changes we discussed at Lumagen boot camp are being implemented. Great work by the entire Lumagen team!


Ken Whitcomb


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> Hi Kris
> 
> So, is a recalibration necessary after installation? Or if defaults are changed, whatâ€™️s the plan for us more lay people?!
> 
> Thanks for the intel.


The base calibration always stays the same. The only changes would be the tone mapping settings depending on where you are starting from. Some may not to change at all, it just depends on what build the settings where based on. Also, all of the base settings that are in the Lumagen now and with the new update are based on my recommendation to Lumagen and represent the safest settings for a starting point for most setups. They can be improved with calibration and measurements specific to one’s setup. 

I keep clients that bought their units through me or had them calibrated by me up to date on changes I recommend. So anyone that’s worked with me can reach out anytime if they are unsure about an update or their settings.


----------



## ddingle

*Directv 4k client reporting 2020 HDR on all channels*

Hi, I spoke to Jim Peterson about this,but thought I would check here to see if anyone could add insight into the issue. We just installed a Radiance Pro with a Sony 885ES projector. We had a new 4k dish and client installed in the media room. It seems that the Directv client is incorrectly reporting HDR 2020 instead of standard 709 for all Directv channels. The Lumagen of course sets up 2020 and the picture looks a bit weird. Jim indicates not much to do at the moment,but he is working on a setting change to allow switching to 709 one way or another. Anyone else bump into this? Thanks!


----------



## dlinsley

ddingle said:


> Hi, I spoke to Jim Peterson about this,but thought I would check here to see if anyone could add insight into the issue. We just installed a Radiance Pro with a Sony 885ES projector. We had a new 4k dish and client installed in the media room. It seems that the Directv client is incorrectly reporting HDR 2020 instead of standard 709 for all Directv channels. The Lumagen of course sets up 2020 and the picture looks a bit weird. Jim indicates not much to do at the moment,but he is working on a setting change to allow switching to 709 one way or another. Anyone else bump into this? Thanks!


Earlier this year my DirecTV 4K client would output SDR2020 for all SDR channels, but wasn't mapping the colors correctly. However, a couple of months ago it corrected itself. I've not ran into an issue with it outputting HDR (thankfully).


----------



## tnaik4

i just received my Radiance pro and i m finding it a little tricky to configure , i m using my PC as a source and when connecting it through the Radiance pro the desktop looks blurry, it looks way better and sharper when i connect my pc directly to the AVR , what settings should i change in the radiance pro to make it look normal with a pc as a source , i tried changing it from 422sdr to RGBsdr but its the same.

thank you


----------



## Yoxxy

tnaik4 said:


> i just received my Radiance pro and i m finding it a little tricky to configure , i m using my PC as a source and when connecting it through the Radiance pro the desktop looks blurry, it looks way better and sharper when i connect my pc directly to the AVR , what settings should i change in the radiance pro to make it look normal with a pc as a source , i tried changing it from 422sdr to RGBsdr but its the same.
> 
> thank you


What resolution are you using? 1440p doesn't look the best in Lumagen off my desktop. Either 1080p or 2160p look great. The colorspace shouldn't impact blurriness. It also appears you are using an e-shift projector, which if using 4k as an output always looked blurry on my desktop.


----------



## MDesigns

Mike Garrett said:


> Just to let people know, Lumagen has announced a price increase, starting January 1st. Also the 4240 and 4440 are being dropped from the lineup.


Where can I find the prices and differences between models?

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## tnaik4

Yoxxy said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i just received my Radiance pro and i m finding it a little tricky to configure , i m using my PC as a source and when connecting it through the Radiance pro the desktop looks blurry, it looks way better and sharper when i connect my pc directly to the AVR , what settings should i change in the radiance pro to make it look normal with a pc as a source , i tried changing it from 422sdr to RGBsdr but its the same.
> 
> thank you
> 
> 
> 
> What resolution are you using? 1440p doesn't look the best in Lumagen off my desktop. Either 1080p or 2160p look great. The colorspace shouldn't impact blurriness. It also appears you are using an e-shift projector, which if using 4k as an output always looked blurry on my desktop.
Click to expand...

I m using 2160p resolution, no i even tried with my 4k Oled and it looked blurry, and my other dlp projector looks way sharper when i connect it to the avr instead of lumagen.
Are u using nvidia graphic card ?


----------



## audioguy

MDesigns said:


> Where can I find the prices and differences between models?


Click *HERE* for a start.


----------



## riddle

Mike Garrett said:


> Just to let people know, Lumagen has announced a price increase, starting January 1st. Also the 4240 and 4440 are being dropped from the lineup.



Hi, do you have some oficial info about this? I still decide between MadVR and Lumagen and I can't choose.  I would like optimal see some comparison.


----------



## Mike Garrett

MDesigns said:


> Where can I find the prices and differences between models?
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


Contact a dealer in your country for pricing. Lumagen website for models.


----------



## Eventidal

MDesigns said:


> Where can I find the prices and differences between models?
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


Gordon Fraser is the distributor for Europe. Based in the UK. Excellent calibrator and helpful in every possible way.

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/home.html

He is on avsforum and you can contact him via pm.


----------



## Mike Garrett

riddle said:


> Hi, do you have some oficial info about this? I still decide between MadVR and Lumagen and I can't choose.  I would like optimal see some comparison.


Yes, Lumagen sent out email to dealers. Included was new price list dated January 2020.


----------



## CDJayRFU

Yoxxy said:


> What resolution are you using? 1440p doesn't look the best in Lumagen off my desktop. Either 1080p or 2160p look great. The colorspace shouldn't impact blurriness. It also appears you are using an e-shift projector, which if using 4k as an output always looked blurry on my desktop.





tnaik4 said:


> i just received my Radiance pro and i m finding it a little tricky to configure , i m using my PC as a source and when connecting it through the Radiance pro the desktop looks blurry, it looks way better and sharper when i connect my pc directly to the AVR , what settings should i change in the radiance pro to make it look normal with a pc as a source , i tried changing it from 422sdr to RGBsdr but its the same.
> 
> thank you


What graphics card are you using? 

It's just as likely to be at the PC end; if it's Nvidia jump into the control panel and check you're on either RGB or Component 444 (*not* 422. That'll do the blurry thing! ). Also ensure you're running at native resolution with no scaling anywhere in the chain for desktop.

CDJay


----------



## riddle

Mike Garrett said:


> Yes, Lumagen sent out email to dealers. Included was new price list dated January 2020.



Oh, I see I hope they add something very interesting to Lumagen when they planed to raise the price when the MadVR is just behind the door.


----------



## Mike_WI

riddle said:


> Oh, I see I hope they add something very interesting to Lumagen when they planed to raise the price when the MadVR is just behind the door.


The firmware will no longer be called "beta".


----------



## tnaik4

CDJayRFU said:


> Yoxxy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What resolution are you using? 1440p doesn't look the best in Lumagen off my desktop. Either 1080p or 2160p look great. The colorspace shouldn't impact blurriness. It also appears you are using an e-shift projector, which if using 4k as an output always looked blurry on my desktop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i just received my Radiance pro and i m finding it a little tricky to configure , i m using my PC as a source and when connecting it through the Radiance pro the desktop looks blurry, it looks way better and sharper when i connect my pc directly to the AVR , what settings should i change in the radiance pro to make it look normal with a pc as a source , i tried changing it from 422sdr to RGBsdr but its the same.
> 
> thank you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What graphics card are you using?
> 
> It's just as likely to be at the PC end; if it's Nvidia jump into the control panel and check you're on either RGB or Component 444 (*not* 422. That'll do the blurry thing! /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif). Also ensure you're running at native resolution with no scaling anywhere in the chain for desktop.
> 
> CDJay
Click to expand...

I m using a 1080ti , and yes i m using RGB 444 , with native resolution, i ve been emailing Jim from lumagen and he was telling me that Radiance pro output 422 as its best for video calibration and its a limitation now with desktop text.

Hope they improve this sometime soon


----------



## tnaik4

does the radiance pro has a feature to detect black bars and shift the whole image to the bottom of the screen automatically ? this will make it easier to mask the double black bars at the top.


----------



## riddle

Mike_WI said:


> The firmware will no longer be called "beta".



Thats greate... i hope that there will be no limitation if I get a basic model with 18Gbps ports when they will release new oficial firmware...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I will be working out the new pricing etc for Europe today or tomorrow.


The Radiance detects black bars to do it's auto aspect but i'm not sure ihow you would or could use that to move every aspect to shift to bottom of screen. Might be worth asking lumagen to put it on list for possible feature.


----------



## SJHT

tnaik4 said:


> does the radiance pro has a feature to detect black bars and shift the whole image to the bottom of the screen automatically ? this will make it easier to mask the double black bars at the top.


The Lumagen can’t do this directly, but many control systems can get info from the Lumagen and make appropriate changes to your setup. Example, detects 2.4 aspect ratio, lowers image to the bottom and triggers a top masking system. SJ


----------



## audioguy

riddle said:


> Oh, I see I hope they add something very interesting to Lumagen when they planed to raise the price when the MadVR is just behind the door.



MadVR has been "just behind the door" for quite some time.


----------



## Mike Garrett

riddle said:


> Oh, I see I hope they add something very interesting to Lumagen when they planed to raise the price when the MadVR is just behind the door.


I have been getting a bunch of emails from lots of companies, regarding price increases, due to the tariffs. I am sure MadVR is also experiencing price increases.


----------



## docrog

Mike Garrett said:


> Contact a dealer in your country for pricing. Lumagen website for models.


Mike, I believe that you own both the RS3000 (with DTM firmware update) and Lumagen Radiance Pro. Could you please comment on what difference you perceive when comparing JVC DTM versus HDR10 + Lumagen DTM when viewing native 4K/UHD content (disc or streaming)? If there are appreciable improvements with Lumagen, are they present for * ALL* material or only noticeable with with specific (poorly) mastered content. Thanks!


----------



## jh901

Mike Garrett said:


> I have been getting a bunch of emails from lots of companies, regarding price increases, due to the tariffs. I am sure MadVR is also experiencing price increases.


Funny. Those emails about price decreases will surely flood your inbox when China agrees to be held accountable, which could be sooner than later. 

Good grief!


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> Mike, I believe that you own both the RS3000 (with DTM firmware update) and Lumagen Radiance Pro. Could you please comment on what difference you perceive when comparing JVC DTM versus HDR10 + Lumagen DTM when viewing native 4K/UHD content (disc or streaming)? If there are appreciable improvements with Lumagen, are they present for * ALL* material or only noticeable with with specific (poorly) mastered content. Thanks!


Since I had the Lumagen first and all set up, I never bothered with updating to Frame Adapt on the JVC.


----------



## jh901

docrog said:


> Mike, I believe that you own both the RS3000 (with DTM firmware update) and Lumagen Radiance Pro. Could you please comment on what difference you perceive when comparing JVC DTM versus HDR10 + Lumagen DTM when viewing native 4K/UHD content (disc or streaming)? If there are appreciable improvements with Lumagen, are they present for * ALL* material or only noticeable with with specific (poorly) mastered content. Thanks!


Can you find a single account from a member here who would put JVC DTM in the same league as Radiance (even before the new f/w)?

You will have to retire your furniture vibrators if you get a video processor (incompatible with smell-o-vision as well). There's always a trade-off!


----------



## docrog

jh901 said:


> Can you find a single account from a member here who would put JVC DTM in the same league as Radiance (even before the new f/w)?


I've asked that same question in multiple forums, but have yet to get any concrete examples that comment on specific material where the Lumagen is in a "different league" for HDR DTM management. Mostly, I read ambiguous opinions or abstract comments of praise.


----------



## jh901

docrog said:


> I've asked that same question in multiple forums, but have yet to get any concrete examples that comment on specific material where the Lumagen is in a "different league" for HDR DTM management. Mostly, I read ambiguous opinions or abstract comments of praise.


Irrespective of specific examples, you would still need to experience it in your own theater in order to draw definitive conclusions. If you're in the market to drop $5,000 - $10,000 into theater improvements, then there's plenty to consider. You could make a top ten list for sound quality alone since you're image quality is at such a high level.


----------



## docrog

Mike Garrett said:


> Since I had the Lumagen first and all set up, I never bothered with updating to Frame Adapt on the JVC.


I find that to be a bit surprising. As a highly regarded dealer of both JVC & Lumagen products, I would have anticipated that the devices which you personally own would be current with regards to firmware optimization since your insights are potentially of significant importance to would-be purchasers.


----------



## docrog

jh901 said:


> Irrespective of specific examples, you would still need to experience it in your own theater in order to draw definitive conclusions.


I have zero access to be able to assess Lumagen's potential in upgrading my HT (no nearby dealers or acquaintances with similar equipment). I'd be thrilled if I could demo the Radiance Pro in my HT prior to completing the purchase, even if it meant a reasonable restocking charge if I didn't find it to be in another league.


----------



## tnaik4

SJHT said:


> The Lumagen can’t do this directly, but many control systems can get info from the Lumagen and make appropriate changes to your setup. Example, detects 2.4 aspect ratio, lowers image to the bottom and triggers a top masking system. SJ


Can u plz give me an example of a control system that can do this .

thank you


----------



## ddingle

dlinsley said:


> Earlier this year my DirecTV 4K client would output SDR2020 for all SDR channels, but wasn't mapping the colors correctly. However, a couple of months ago it corrected itself. I've not ran into an issue with it outputting HDR (thankfully).


Thanks for the info! Since your problem went away one might assume that Directv updated the software on your 4k receiver/client and eliminated the problem. Hopefully something like that will happenb at our client's home. As a last resort I sent a direct message to Directv on Twitter asking about the problem.Might get lucky and someone might have some insight into the issue.


----------



## audioguy

I would ask Kris Deering. I know he has a Lumagen and an RS3000. And since he is in the business of video calibration, if anyone knows the comparison of the Lumagen vs the JVC software, it would be him.


That said, the Lumagen can do things the projector does not. For example, automatic aspect recognition and adjustments as necessary.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I would ask Kris Deering. I know he has a Lumagen and an RS3000. And since he is in the business of video calibration, if anyone knows the comparison of the Lumagen vs the JVC software, it would be him.
> 
> 
> That said, the Lumagen can do things the projector does not. For example, *automatic aspect recognition and adjustments as necessary*.


I love that feature !


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> I love that feature !


As do I. In my case, I use a Nvidia Shield/Plex combo for viewing ripped movies. The main Plex menu is at 16 x 9 and the vast majority of movies are 2:35. Prior to this, I would have to manually switch back to 16x9 and then when I selected the movie, switch back to 2:35. Now I do nothing. 

That said, I can't remember which keys you hit to lock in the selected aspect ratio.


----------



## MDesigns

SJHT said:


> The Lumagen can’t do this directly, but many control systems can get info from the Lumagen and make appropriate changes to your setup. Example, detects 2.4 aspect ratio, lowers image to the bottom and triggers a top masking system. SJ


Do you mean lower the image with a lens shift? I believe tnaik4 has a Benq without electric lensshift.

But I think a proper video processor really should have an automatic feature to drop the picture to the bottom, or top, of the screen if needed.

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## tnaik4

MDesigns said:


> Do you mean lower the image with a lens shift? I believe tnaik4 has a Benq without electric lensshift.
> 
> But I think a proper video processor really should have an automatic feature to drop the picture to the bottom, or top, of the screen if needed.
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


it is a feature in madVR that detects black bars and shift the whole image to the top or bottom and u can mask the double bar easier that way , i was trying to see if lumagen has a feature like this , prior to madVR i was using lens shift on my JVC rs440 but the black bar detection is a lot better and more convenient.


----------



## SJHT

tnaik4 said:


> Can u plz give me an example of a control system that can do this .
> 
> thank you


Typically a control system that has some type of central hardware as it needs to actively monitor the Lumagen for changes and then take appropriate action. Examples would be Crestron, Control 4, Savant, Kramer, etc. 



MDesigns said:


> Do you mean lower the image with a lens shift? I believe tnaik4 has a Benq without electric lensshift.
> 
> But I think a proper video processor really should have an automatic feature to drop the picture to the bottom, or top, of the screen if needed.
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


You can lower the screen using the Vertical Shift feature under the Input settings of the Lumagen Pro. You can store this in a different memory and then push a button to have it lowered. I'm sure there are other ways to do this. You can reach out to Lumagen support for help. Having the Lumagen alone do this would not be enough for many as most want things like masking also triggered.

Some info:
http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> As do I. In my case, I use a Nvidia Shield/Plex combo for viewing ripped movies. The main Plex menu is at 16 x 9 and the vast majority of movies are 2:35. Prior to this, I would have to manually switch back to 16x9 and then when I selected the movie, switch back to 2:35. Now I do nothing.
> 
> That said, I can't remember which keys you hit to lock in the selected aspect ratio.


Generally speaking, I only want to do that for scope with the DCR lens, where those pesky IMAX scenes wack everything out. Then I use Alt 2.40 during the movie - enables Sticky Aspect Ratio.


----------



## bobof

tnaik4 said:


> it is a feature in madVR that detects black bars and shift the whole image to the top or bottom and u can mask the double bar easier that way , i was trying to see if lumagen has a feature like this , prior to madVR i was using lens shift on my JVC rs440 but the black bar detection is a lot better and more convenient.


As @SJHT says; enable auto aspect, play the content in the aspect you want to adjust, then go to input -> in configs -> select the first config option -> sizing (which should have the detected aspect) -> Vert shift. Positive values shift the image down.

You can set each aspect to have different amounts of shift / zoom / non linear stretch / crop / etc.

Then whenever that aspect and input combination is detected it will shift the image. 

But if you also want to control some actual physical masking you will need a control system of some sort.


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> I find that to be a bit surprising. As a highly regarded dealer of both JVC & Lumagen products, I would have anticipated that the devices which you personally own would be current with regards to firmware optimization since your insights are potentially of significant importance to would-be purchasers.


As I have always said, do not install an update if it does not offer you an improvement or solve a problem. Since I would not be using frame adapt, the update offered me nothing.


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> I would ask Kris Deering. I know he has a Lumagen and an RS3000. And since he is in the business of video calibration, if anyone knows the comparison of the Lumagen vs the JVC software, it would be him.
> 
> 
> That said, the Lumagen can do things the projector does not. For example, automatic aspect recognition and adjustments as necessary.


Kris and I have talked about comparison of them side by side. My info I posted above is based on this conversation.


----------



## dlinsley

ddingle said:


> Thanks for the info! Since your problem went away one might assume that Directv updated the software on your 4k receiver/client and eliminated the problem. Hopefully something like that will happenb at our client's home. As a last resort I sent a direct message to Directv on Twitter asking about the problem.Might get lucky and someone might have some insight into the issue.


Sorry, yes I meant to be more explicit that it seemed DirecTV fixed it with a firmware update. It still shows SDR2020 as input to the Lumagen, but the colors are now correct.


----------



## mskreis

ddingle said:


> Thanks for the info! Since your problem went away one might assume that Directv updated the software on your 4k receiver/client and eliminated the problem. Hopefully something like that will happenb at our client's home. As a last resort I sent a direct message to Directv on Twitter asking about the problem.Might get lucky and someone might have some insight into the issue.




I’m still having this issue with my Directv receiver/client but it seems to be inconsistent. 

But as noted above, colors appear to be correct. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

Has anyone had success placing the Lumagen after the AVR (between the AVR & projector) in the video chain? I don't want to lose functionality of the AVR's GUI and I'd prefer not to have to run a 2nd line to the projector and switch PJ inputs whenever I want to access that GUI. I've heard that even top of the line AVRs can potentially add unwanted video artifacts which could be problematic for the Lumagen to compensate for, even after optimal calibration. I certainly don't want to be purposefully considering something that potentially negatively affects my reason for purchasing the Lumagen to pair with my JVC NX7.


----------



## bearcat2002

Works fine either way. Just make sure the AVR isn’t doing any video processing though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KarlKlammer

docrog said:


> Has anyone had success placing the Lumagen after the AVR (between the AVR & projector) in the video chain?


Yes, that is how I set it up.


----------



## docrog

Question from a prospective buyer: how close to perceived HD/1080p Blu Ray resolution can Lumagen upscale SD/480p DVD source material when output as 4K?


----------



## docrog

Can the Radiance Pro simply be placed in the video chain with an already professionally calibrated NX7 or does it require separate calibration in order to be optimally utilized? Thanks!


----------



## Mike_WI

docrog said:


> Can the Radiance Pro simply be placed in the video chain with an already professionally calibrated NX7 or does it require separate calibration in order to be optimally utilized? Thanks!


I think the answers are 1) Yes, 2) Yes.
You can just plug it in, but optimal calibration will utilize it in the calibration process.


----------



## Kris Deering

tnaik4 said:


> it is a feature in madVR that detects black bars and shift the whole image to the top or bottom and u can mask the double bar easier that way , i was trying to see if lumagen has a feature like this , prior to madVR i was using lens shift on my JVC rs440 but the black bar detection is a lot better and more convenient.


You can setup the Lumagen so it uses the bottom of the active image area for the picture and leaves the black bars at the top instead.


----------



## tnaik4

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, that is how I set it up.


are u having any sync issues or audio cut out ? i had many audio cut outs when i tried connecting my radiance pro -> Yamaha 2050 AVR ->PJ , its a lot more convenient to do it that way though.


----------



## tnaik4

i ve had the radiance pro for couple of days and need help in 2 issues :

1- i have the 4242 model , and i cant seem to get the audio working from hdmi out1 to AVR , is there any specific setting i should use , when i go into audio settings under global tab , it says no switched outputs installed ( for ouputs 1-2 see output setup menu) . I tried output setup menu with many configurations but didnt work.

2-i am having a lot of sync issues with picture cutting out randomly and coming back after a sec or 2. that is happening when using the radiance pro as in-out without any added device in the chain , all my cables are rupiro fiber cables and work perfectly when i use them directly with my AVR, didnt have sync issues the first day, it started happening the next day, tried unplugging the cables to clean the hdmi ports but still having the same issues.

3-this not an issue, i m asking if someone can tell me how to store 2 different 1dlut/3dlut for 2 projectors while using the same output, since my 4242 has 1 video 18g output i have to switch cables if i want to use different projector or route it through my AVR which has 2 out s, but how can i change the 3dlut to match the projector ? is there a quick way to switch ?


----------



## KarlKlammer

tnaik4 said:


> are u having any sync issues or audio cut out ?


No, not in recent months. All sync issues/drop outs I had at the beginning (2017) were due to cables, HDfury devices or strangely enough user defined Harmony sequences.


----------



## Eventidal

tnaik4 said:


> i ve had the radiance pro for couple of days and need help in 2 issues :
> 
> 
> 2-i am having a lot of sync issues with picture cutting out randomly and coming back after a sec or 2. that is happening when using the radiance pro as in-out without any added device in the chain , all my cables are rupiro fiber cables and work perfectly when i use them directly with my AVR, didnt have sync issues the first day, it started happening the next day, tried unplugging the cables to clean the hdmi ports but still having the same issues.


Did you switch the Yamaha to 18 Gbit - Mode 1 in Advanced Setup settings?


----------



## tnaik4

Eventidal said:


> Did you switch the Yamaha to 18 Gbit - Mode 1 in Advanced Setup settings?


i m having sync issues without the yamaha in the chain , just using SOURCE ---> LUMAGEN ---> PROJECTOR , this shouldnt have any sync issues to my knowledge.


----------



## Kerlucun

I thought it was possible to get out in 10 bits with the Lumagen PRO but I can’t figure out how to do it.
Does anyone have a solution?


----------



## docrog

Since DTM capabilities are present for both Lumagen & JVC since recent firmware updates, does the mechanism/process by which Lumagen performs DTM differ appreciably from the way that JVC does their frame-by-frame DTM?


----------



## jh901

docrog said:


> Since DTM capabilities are present for both Lumagen & JVC since recent firmware updates, does the mechanism/process by which Lumagen performs DTM differ appreciably from the way that JVC does their frame-by-frame DTM?


Sincerely, why aren't you enjoying what ChadB did for you? You'd want him to come back and use the Lumagen tools to calibrate. Plus, Envy hasn't even come out yet. There's no rush, is there!? 

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, then start upgrading to separate hi-end pre-amp and power amp. Treat your room with GIK acoustics bass traps, etc. After that, then there's really taking the sound to another level with proper hi-end current conditioning.


----------



## dlinsley

PHP:







Kerlucun said:


> I thought it was possible to get out in 10 bits with the Lumagen PRO but I can’t figure out how to do it.
> Does anyone have a solution?


If you bring up the debug menu (press OK without the menus already showing) and on the third page (IIRC) what does Obpp show? Is it just 8? If so, on the first page is it showing 444 output or 422? If the latter, are you output 4k60 on a 9G or 18G output? If it's showing 444 in the Style menu change the HDMI Output Type to 422.

(I use YCbCr422 output type and Obpp is 12 even at 4k60 via the 18G output card)


----------



## Kerlucun

dlinsley said:


> If you bring up the debug menu (press OK without the menus already showing) and on the third page (IIRC) what does Obpp show? Is it just 8? If so, on the first page is it showing 444 output or 422? If the latter, are you output 4k60 on a 9G or 18G output? If it's showing 444 in the Style menu change the HDMI Output Type to 422.
> 
> (I use YCbCr422 output type and Obpp is 12 even at 4k60 via the 18G output card)


Obpp says it’s eight.
I have a Sony TV via Vertex2 on the 9 Ghz output and a JVC 7900 via a Denon 4300 on the 18 Ghz output.
The output is 4k50 and Ycbcr444
I unplugged the entrance on the Vertex and there the Obpp went to 10 even by reconnecting the Lumagen on the Vertex.
By passing in Ycbcr422 the Obpp changes to 12
Probably a HDMI communication problem.
Thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## Eventidal

tnaik4 said:


> i m having sync issues without the yamaha in the chain , just using SOURCE ---> LUMAGEN ---> PROJECTOR , this shouldnt have any sync issues to my knowledge.


What boards are you using? 9Ghz or 18 Ghz? In/out? If it is not the cables (and the radiance is picky) you might have a defective board. That is very rare but happened to me (18 Ghz out).

Another posssibiliy is a bad frame rate match. Check the output or info pages.


----------



## tnaik4

Eventidal said:


> What boards are you using? 9Ghz or 18 Ghz? In/out? If it is not the cables (and the radiance is picky) you might have a defective board. That is very rare but happened to me (18 Ghz out).
> 
> Another posssibiliy is a bad frame rate match. Check the output or info pages.


i m using 18ghz , today i unplugged all cables and tried cleaning the ports and so far everything is good, i dont want to jinx it but its been good even connecting SOURCE-->LUMAGEN-->AVR--->PJ , so i hope it stays stable .


----------



## docrog

jh901 said:


> Sincerely, why aren't you enjoying what ChadB did for you? You'd want him to come back and use the Lumagen tools to calibrate. Plus, Envy hasn't even come out yet. There's no rush, is there!? If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, then start upgrading to separate hi-end pre-amp and power amp. Treat your room with GIK acoustics bass traps, etc. After that, then there's really taking the sound to another level with proper hi-end current conditioning.


I don't believe that this is the first time that you've written unsolicited critical/condescending comments to members on AVSForum threads. Unless your signature is in error, you don't possess either the Lumagen Radiance Pro or a current JVC PJ with DTM. That makes me wonder why you felt compelled to weigh in on my specific question or this thread, in general. You certainly haven't made any attempt to provide new information related to the query to which you've replied. The fact that you'd assume that I (or anyone else) would feel obliged to defend, to you, their interest in making the effort to understand state of the art DTM processing is really quite amazing.


----------



## audioguy

jh901 said:


> *Sincerely, why aren't you enjoying what ChadB did for you?* You'd want him to come back and use the Lumagen tools to calibrate. Plus, Envy hasn't even come out yet. There's no rush, is there!?
> 
> If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, then start upgrading to separate hi-end pre-amp and power amp. Treat your room with GIK acoustics bass traps, etc. After that, then there's really taking the sound to another level with proper hi-end current conditioning.


That is an odd question. How do you know he isn't enjoying his current PJ/Calibration? The fact that he is continuing to explore options does not mean he doesn't enjoy what he has. This is, after all, AVSForum, set up so we can all learn about new options and new products.

Odd indeed.


----------



## Eventidal

tnaik4 said:


> i m using 18ghz , today i unplugged all cables and tried cleaning the ports and so far everything is good, i dont want to jinx it but its been good even connecting SOURCE-->LUMAGEN-->AVR--->PJ , so i hope it stays stable .


Great. As I said, check frame rates next time. I ended up removing my 18 Ghz output board. Back to 9Ghz and two video outputs.


----------



## riddle

Hi, any tip to dont foget to set up on Lumagen? I brought from my friend his 4446 yesterday and I'm wondering where to start with seting...


----------



## bobof

riddle said:


> Hi, any tip to dont foget to set up on Lumagen? I brought from my friend his 4446 yesterday and I'm wondering where to start with seting...


The most helpful docs are here from @giomania - he has collected lots of wisdom into one big doc:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-183.html#post58532696

And these training notes from Jim of Lumagen @jrp:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-164.html#post58340230

If you get stuck with anything post in the thread, there's a mix of owners who get them set up by pros, owners / operators (like me), and calibrators who sell them and calibrate them. It's a very powerful device from a configuration standpoint but none of it is particularly complicated (ish!). 

Maybe if you gave some info about what other devices you have in your system and what your calibration experience / skill / equipment is you might get some more tailored suggestions?


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> It's a very powerful device from a configuration standpoint but *none of it is particularly complicated* (ish!).


Maybe if one understands the basic concepts of video - but that would not be me. But I most certainly agree with your position that to extract all that the Lumagen has to offer, most would best be served by hiring someone who has lots knowledge and experience in these matters to perform the calibration and setup.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Maybe if one understands the basic concepts of video - but that would not be me. But I most certainly agree with your position that to extract all that the Lumagen has to offer, most would best be served by hiring someone who has lots knowledge and experience in these matters to perform the calibration and setup.


I think I put it in the same category as many things, if you can spend the time most folk can learn to do most things. I taught myself to change cambelt on my car (an interference diesel engine) being a relative mechanical novice. But it cost me more in time and tools than paying the main dealership to do the job! It was a fun project for someone who likes taking stuff apart and sometimes putting it back together.

If you don't want to learn these things or have better things to do with your time, for sure hiring a pro is a great idea. And if you don't have calibration gear, I think you're massively missing out by not having a pro use the calibration functions such as the 3DLUT colour correction - you should definitely hire a pro.


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> I think I put it in the same category as many things, if you can spend the time most folk can learn to do most things. I taught myself to change cambelt on my car (an interference diesel engine) being a relative mechanical novice. But it cost me more in time and tools than paying the main dealership to do the job! It was a fun project for someone who likes taking stuff apart and sometimes putting it back together.
> 
> If you don't want to learn these things or have better things to do with your time, for sure hiring a pro is a great idea. And if you don't have calibration gear, I think you're massively missing out by not having a pro use the calibration functions such as the 3DLUT colour correction - you should definitely hire a pro.



Exact same thing applies to folks who buy something like a Trinnov (the Lumagen of audio). On that product, I am VERY comfortable and have calibrated quite of few AVSer systems (but having the tools and knowledge and experience are critical to extracting all that is possible). I am sure I could learn how to calibrate a projector/Lumagen but at my age, why?


----------



## Karl Maga

audioguy said:


> ... I am sure I could learn how to calibrate a projector/Lumagen but at my age, why?


I’m at the stage where I prefer to pay a pro to proficiently provide me with superb results. I understand those who like to dig into the details as I was once of that mind. 

However, I desire to spend my twilight using the big red EZ button as often as possible. I’m going to purchase my Lumagen from @Kris Deering and have him set it up right.


----------



## riddle

bobof said:


> The most helpful docs are here from @*giomania* - he has collected lots of wisdom into one big doc:
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-183.html#post58532696
> 
> And these training notes from Jim of Lumagen @*jrp* :
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-164.html#post58340230
> 
> If you get stuck with anything post in the thread, there's a mix of owners who get them set up by pros, owners / operators (like me), and calibrators who sell them and calibrate them. It's a very powerful device from a configuration standpoint but none of it is particularly complicated (ish!).
> 
> Maybe if you gave some info about what other devices you have in your system and what your calibration experience / skill / equipment is you might get some more tailored suggestions?



Thanks for reply i will look on thats links, this is my home setup:
JVC NX7, OPPO 203, Marantz SR7013, AppleTV4K, Panasonic UB9000, PS4PRO

And yes i have some experience with calibration, i already have Calman Video PRO with VideoForge PRO and C6HDR2000, Spyder5/X, X-Rite i1Pro2 (OEM)


----------



## tnaik4

bobof said:


> I think I put it in the same category as many things, if you can spend the time most folk can learn to do most things. I taught myself to change cambelt on my car (an interference diesel engine) being a relative mechanical novice. But it cost me more in time and tools than paying the main dealership to do the job! It was a fun project for someone who likes taking stuff apart and sometimes putting it back together.
> 
> If you don't want to learn these things or have better things to do with your time, for sure hiring a pro is a great idea. And if you don't have calibration gear, I think you're massively missing out by not having a pro use the calibration functions such as the 3DLUT colour correction - you should definitely hire a pro.


i m with bobof here , i really find enjoyement calibrating and learning new gear, i have the Radiance pro 4242 now for 3-4 days , it felt really overwhelming at first but now i m getting comfortable with it and its becoming easy to setup multiple memories/3dlut calibrations/settings.... for 2 different projectors , and its satisfying when everything clicks and u see the great results u achieved.
i can see also why some would like it to be setup by a professional and have it ready to go without fiddling with it.


----------



## audioguy

Karl Maga said:


> However, I desire to spend my twilight using the big red EZ button as often as possible. I’m going to purchase my Lumagen from @Kris Deering and have him set it up right.


Good plan. I did the same only used Craig Rounds.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Got tired of the AppleTV UI, and the Roku 4k not having atmos on netflix. So got the Nvidia Shield Pro, I should have done it a long time ago! It has chromecast built in, so I free up an input on the Lumagen. The remote thru CEC somehow controls volume on my receiver (appletv woulnd't) but I can't get it to turn on and off the projector 

My questions is there a way for the Lumagen to not switch inputs automatically when there's no signal? I have the shield on input 2, and sometimes accidentally turn off the shield, so then Lumagen switches input to 1 which has a signal on it (roku for now). Then I have to get my lumagen remote out and switch inputs back. I can't find any setting on the lumagen to disable that. 

Also, is there a resolution setting that's best for the lumagen to set the Nvidia to?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Ever since I go the Lumagen I started seeing some rainbow effect on my BenQ LK990, it only happens for a split second on scenes with something white and i dart my eyes a bit across the screen. I definitely never got it before the lumagen. Is that a possibility? maybe it's the refresh rate? should I set the nvidia to 60 or 59.97hz? 

Turns out the BenQ does have a firmware update to fix my 24hz shaking issue, so sending it in for that as well.

Bugs me a little that i'm getting the rainbow though, again only in a handful of scenes in a show and for a second.


----------



## docrog

Still considering the purchase of the Radiance Pro for my JVC NX7. Question: is there any downside of purchasing the Lumagen with a 9GHz output, rather than 18GHz (my cable to the JVC is a rock solid Ruipro optical cable). I know that the ATV4K plays well with 18GHz on the input side, so would there be a conflict with this (or any other device) with 18GHz input & 9GHz output? Thanks!


----------



## dlinsley

docrog said:


> Still considering the purchase of the Radiance Pro for my JVC NX7. Question: is there any downside of purchasing the Lumagen with a 9GHz output, rather than 18GHz (my cable to the JVC is a rock solid Ruipro optical cable). I know that the ATV4K plays well with 18GHz on the input side, so would there be a conflict with this (or any other device) with 18GHz input & 9GHz output? Thanks!


See Nyal Mellor's table at http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/ . You wont get 4k60 HDR at full 10/12-bit without the 18G input and output. I don't know if the source is really 4k60 but some shows on Netflix - like ST3 - report as 4k60 HDR.


----------



## docrog

dlinsley said:


> See Nyal Mellor's table at http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/ . You wont get 4k60 HDR at full 10/12-bit without the 18G input and output. I don't know if the source is really 4k60 but some shows on Netflix - like ST3 - report as 4k60 HDR.


Thanks for that link. I remember seeing that article last year when the question of HDMI cable capacity was being discussed elsewhere. I'm really a novice regarding chroma & color depth, but I had thought that someone had indicated that, with output "dithering", any 12 bit/18GHz format could be successfully output at 8 bit/9GHz. Does that not include 8 bit 4:4:4 18GHz from some device menus & limited content? Are there other significant limitations?


----------



## Kris Deering

gadgetfreaky said:


> Got tired of the AppleTV UI, and the Roku 4k not having atmos on netflix. So got the Nvidia Shield Pro, I should have done it a long time ago! It has chromecast built in, so I free up an input on the Lumagen. The remote thru CEC somehow controls volume on my receiver (appletv woulnd't) but I can't get it to turn on and off the projector /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
> 
> My questions is there a way for the Lumagen to not switch inputs automatically when there's no signal? I have the shield on input 2, and sometimes accidentally turn off the shield, so then Lumagen switches input to 1 which has a signal on it (roku for now). Then I have to get my lumagen remote out and switch inputs back. I can't find any setting on the lumagen to disable that.
> 
> Also, is there a resolution setting that's best for the lumagen to set the Nvidia to?


Lumagen doesn’t auto switch so not sure why yours is. 



gadgetfreaky said:


> Ever since I go the Lumagen I started seeing some rainbow effect on my BenQ LK990, it only happens for a split second on scenes with something white and i dart my eyes a bit across the screen. I definitely never got it before the lumagen. Is that a possibility? maybe it's the refresh rate? should I set the nvidia to 60 or 59.97hz?
> 
> Turns out the BenQ does have a firmware update to fix my 24hz shaking issue, so sending it in for that as well.
> 
> Bugs me a little that i'm getting the rainbow though, again only in a handful of scenes in a show and for a second.


RBE on a DLP is not uncommon, even with laser models. Typically seen on high contrast scenes with small white objects so this sounds like or for the course. 



docrog said:


> dlinsley said:
> 
> 
> 
> See Nyal Mellor's table at http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/ . You wont get 4k60 HDR at full 10/12-bit without the 18G input and output. I don't know if the source is really 4k60 but some shows on Netflix - like ST3 - report as 4k60 HDR.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that link. I remember seeing that article last year when the question of HDMI cable capacity was being discussed elsewhere. I'm really a novice regarding chroma & color depth, but I had thought that someone had indicated that, with output "dithering", any 12 bit/18GHz format could be successfully output at 8 bit/9GHz. Does that not include 8 bit 4:4:4 18GHz from some device menus & limited content? Are there other significant limitations?
Click to expand...

With 4K60 the output drops but material in that refresh rate is rare and when compared to a normal output I’ve never seen a difference. 18G gives piece of mind though for most, but otherwise you shouldn’t have any issues.


----------



## mskreis

Watched Men in Black International the other night and was distracted by multiple, abrupt changes in brightness. I disabled the lamp iris but it persisted. I assume this is the issue discussed last month that will be addressed with new firmware. 

This movie more than any other I’ve watched recently really demonstrates the issue. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bytehoven

mskreis said:


> Watched Men in Black International the other night and was distracted by multiple, abrupt changes in brightness. I disabled the lamp iris but it persisted. I assume this is the issue discussed last month that will be addressed with new firmware.
> 
> This movie more than any other I’ve watched recently really demonstrates the issue.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Turn Adaptive off until they release the next update Kris has referenced.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> With 4K60 the output drops but material in that refresh rate is rare and when compared to a normal output I’ve never seen a difference. 18G gives piece of mind though for most, but otherwise you shouldn’t have any issues.


Thanks, Kris. I'm still trying to decide if it's worth the $250 to upgrade the output card to 18GHz. I remember that the Samsung 8500 (my 1st UHD player) had a main menu screen at 4K 60Hz 4:4:4 and required the an 18GHz HDMI cable bandwidth to avoid dropouts & snow. I don't have the knowledge base to determine whether real world issues would occur if the Lumagen's output was restricted by a 9MHz card.


----------



## docrog

I'd like to have the option to assess whether applying some amount of Darbee processing would enhance native 480/720p and 1080i/p content to be upscaled by the Lumagen. I've read the user manual and I can't determine if the choice to enable Darbee can be selected according to incoming resolution or only by the specific HDMI input source. This matters to me, because it's most likely that the Lumagen would only be fed by the AVR (so that I can maintain the GUI) and it would see the native resolution but not be able to identify the source. Can anyone provide me with that information?


----------



## alex_t

docrog said:


> I'd like to have the option to assess whether applying some amount of Darbee processing would enhance native 480/720p and 1080i/p content to be upscaled by the Lumagen. I've read the user manual and I can't determine if the choice to enable Darbee can be selected according to incoming resolution or only by the specific HDMI input source. This matters to me, because it's most likely that the Lumagen would only be fed by the AVR (so that I can maintain the GUI) and it would see the native resolution but not be able to identify the source. Can anyone provide me with that information?



Hello


When Radiance is fed by the AVR, you can use the virtual input feature, it is a very cool feature. Example, let's say AVR is plugged on Radiance input 1 and let's say your radiance has 4 inputs available. Also let's say you have 4 sources plugged into your AVR:
1) through the specific Radiance MENU (refer to manual), map the 4 Radiance inputs for acquiring physically hdmi signal on Radiance input 1 only
2) plug the output AVR in Radiance input 1
3.1) when you select AVR input 1 then select Radiance input 1 with the Radiance remote
3.2) when you select AVR input 2 then select Radiance input 2 with the Radiance remote
3.3) when you select AVR input 3 then select Radiance input 3 with the Radiance remote
3.4) when you select AVR input 4 then select Radiance input 4 with the Radiance remote

=> With this mapping, it is like you had your 4 sources directly plugged on 4 inputs of the Radiance.

Darbee can be turned ON whatever the input or memory selected. When at ON, Darbee processing is active only when incoming resolution is from 480p up to 1080p.


----------



## togs

Relatively new Lumagen owner.

Any experience of pro/cons using the following devices for Netflix/Amazon streaming. . The following feed my lumagen for other purposes and all have apps for streaming Amazon/Netflix.

- Panasonic UB820
- Nvidia Shield (old model)
- PC (disadvantage that would not work with my remote control)

They are all set up to feed the Lumagen on to a JVC N7 and an ATMOS capable set up.

Thoughts or experiences welcome.

Thanks

PS also posted on avforums (UK)


----------



## Mark_H

gadgetfreaky said:


> My questions is there a way for the Lumagen to not switch inputs automatically when there's no signal? I have the shield on input 2, and sometimes accidentally turn off the shield, so then Lumagen switches input to 1 which has a signal on it (roku for now). Then I have to get my lumagen remote out and switch inputs back. I can't find any setting on the lumagen to disable that.
> 
> Also, is there a resolution setting that's best for the lumagen to set the Nvidia to?


MENU → Other → I/O Setup → Auto Select


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mark_H said:


> MENU → Other → I/O Setup → Auto Select



Exactly as Mark H has said. The Pro does have an auto detect and switch feature. I've actually no idea when it went in to the pro firmware but it is there and i presume it is enabled in your system. Just alter it to do what you want.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Thanks, Kris. I'm still trying to decide if it's worth the $250 to upgrade the output card to 18GHz. I remember that the Samsung 8500 (my 1st UHD player) had a main menu screen at 4K 60Hz 4:4:4 and required the an 18GHz HDMI cable bandwidth to avoid dropouts & snow. I don't have the knowledge base to determine whether real world issues would occur if the Lumagen's output was restricted by a 9MHz card.



I have one of those players here. You only need the 18GHz input to get it to work. No need for 18GHz output unless you want to watch one of the very very few high frame rate 4K HDR discs. Even then, Jim believes that with the work they have done on the 9GHz output you are not going to see any visible difference between it and an 18GHz card on actual video material


----------



## docrog

alex_t said:


> Hello
> 
> When Radiance is fed by the AVR, you can use the virtual input feature, it is a very cool feature. Example, let's say AVR is plugged on Radiance input 1 and let's say your radiance has 4 inputs available. Also let's say you have 4 sources plugged into your AVR:
> 1) through the specific Radiance MENU (refer to manual), map the 4 Radiance inputs for acquiring physically hdmi signal on Radiance input 1 only
> 2) plug the output AVR in Radiance input 1
> 3.1) when you select AVR input 1 then select Radiance input 1 with the Radiance remote
> 3.2) when you select AVR input 2 then select Radiance input 2 with the Radiance remote
> 3.3) when you select AVR input 3 then select Radiance input 3 with the Radiance remote
> 3.4) when you select AVR input 4 then select Radiance input 4 with the Radiance remote
> 
> => With this mapping, it is like you had your 4 sources directly plugged on 4 inputs of the Radiance.
> 
> Darbee can be turned ON whatever the input or memory selected. When at ON, Darbee processing is active only when incoming resolution is from 480p up to 1080p.


Thanks! That's very useful information. Unfortunately, I was planning on purchasing the 4240 configuration (only 2 inputs) and, as I'm currently configured, I have 5 potential devices. Of these, one is the UB820 UHD player which is set at "auto" resolution meaning that it will upscale any content, other than 3D Blu Ray discs, to 4K. Because of this feature, I'll have to keep my Oppo 103D in the video chain (to be set at native resolution) if I want the Lumagen to perform upscaling of 480/1080p discs (rather than in the UB820). The Roku Ultra and ATV4K are set at 4K resolution, so Darbee can't be applied. The TiVo Bolt is set at native resolution and will be upscaled in the Lumagen, but Darbee isn't presently being applied here. 

Can the mapping feature be configured so that (with only 2 Lumagen inputs) it sees the Oppo's AVR input as a separate device and the remaining devices (AVR inputs) as only one device? If not, I guess the workaround would be to keep Darbee turned on in the Oppo (with native resolution output) and not enable Darbee in the Lumagen. In that case, the mapping feature wouldn't be necessary. I had planned to turn off the Oppo's Darbee feature once the Lumagen was in the video chain since I wasn't certain about how the Lumagen's upscaling would interface with legacy content signal that already had Darbee processing applied. It's a shame that neither the UB420/820 or the Samsung K8500 can be set to output native resolution (upscaling to 4K is unable to be defeated when it "sees" a UHD display) and I'm not aware of any UHD player that has that feature............


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> I have one of those players here. You only need the 18GHz input to get it to work. No need for 18GHz output unless you want to watch one of the very very few high frame rate 4K HDR discs. Even then, Jim believes that with the work they have done on the 9GHz output you are not going to see any visible difference between it and an 18GHz card on actual video material


Thanks for that response. I'm not concerned with the limited content of those few UHD discs (I'm only aware of "Billy Linn"), but I was concerned whether or not any streaming content from Netflix or Amazon might require similar bandwidth/chroma capabilities on the output side. If not, I'd certainly feel comfortable with the 9GHz output card, as per Jim Peterson's recommendation.


----------



## jrp

I have been away from AVS for a while. We are about to do another release that has significant improvement for DTM. So time for me to check in.

This release improves the "Adaptive" part of DTM (call it ADTM). We had some "pumping" issues with ADTM that are now resolved. There are also a number of other improvements. Some apply to many scenes and some are more specific to a small class of scene types. I have been surprised at how Patrick has been able to continue to improve on the already excellent scene detection, and scene adaptive function (the ADTM). I think you will be excited by the improvements.

We have also had a few people (more than a few?) messing about with the DTM parameters and getting themselves in a bad state. So, this release will also have a simplified DTM user interface in "User Mode." If you insist on more "rope," the current interface will still be available in Service Mode. Just be aware that we believe the defaults are the best settings and changes you make to parameters not shown in User Mode will likely degrade the image rather than improve it.

We are simplifying the DTM parameter menu in User Mode. The DTM parameter menu (left arrow) will be:

Low Ratio: 0 to 63 (Default = 31)
DynPad: 0 to 7 (Default = 3)
DeSat: 0 to 15 (default = 4)
Global Max Light: 100 to 9990 (default = 500)

You need to set the Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu (or it is now shown in the DTM parameter menu as Global Max Light). I am recommending five (5) times the measured light in nits. This multiple is a trade off between brighter scenes (lower Max Light), and color saturation (higher Max Light). I am considering more testing using a multiple of four (4) times measured maximum light, but not there yet. Also, I have talked to some who prefer a multiple of 3 to 4. This is a personal choice and can also depend on if you have a lower light output projector and want a brighter image.

Note that if you have values other than the above defaults in your unit, they will not be changed by the update. You would need to reset the HDR parameters (each input and input memory or change one and copy to the others. Then do a Save).

Some have asked why the Max Light is not set to 1X measured light in nits. The "1X measured light" setting is in the mix, but for "dark scenes" as it needs to be. We will show the effective Low Light Max in this menu. You can look a the "effective Max Light" (adjusted by Low Ratio) and adjust until it is about 1X measured light (or your preferred multiple for low light scenes).

Note that, as shown, the new default for "Low Ratio" is 31 (currently 15). Using 15 still works well, but with the improvements in the DTM we are seeing that you can raise this value (reducing the dark scene effective max light and raising brightness) without seeing clipping. Setting the Low-set ratio to 31 will result in roughly “1X” measured light (assuming Max Light is in the 5x range) for dark scenes. We have exended the Low Ratio range. It was -31 to 31, and now is 0 to 63. We eliminated negative numbers as they do not make sense to use, but were still showing up in some questions I received.

We are also changing the default DynPad to 3 (currently 6). Again this is because the improvement allow a brighter image without showing clipping. With a setting of 3 we do not expect there to be visible clipping. However, even a settings of 2, or 1, may have few scenes where there might be a bit of clipping of highlights. However the overall image will be brighter. I am currently using DynPad = 3 but experimenting with settings of 1 and 2. So you might want to try 1, 2, and 3 for DynPad to see which you prefer.

DeSat (de-saturation) has not changed. We left it in for User Mode since some like to have a different setting for this.

Note: The ADTM parameters are per-input and per-input-memory, except for "Global Max Light." It is "global" to all inputs and input memories that use the currently active CMS (which is typically CMS1 for HDR). For example if the current CMS for HDR is CMS1, this Global Max Light is the same value as CMS1->HDR Mapping->HDR Mapping->Max Light.

Note: If you want the settings (excepting Max Light) to apply to other inputs or input memories, use the "Input Copy" command to copy to the other inputs and/or memories. As always, make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.

There are a few other additions to the user interface. For example you can now program the right arrow to bring up test patterns rather than the Darbee menu, or program the up/down arrows to step through Input Aspect Ratio selections. This release fixes an issue using NLS with "Auto Aspect" that was recently reported.

These improvements should be in a release in the next day or two.


----------



## Craig Peer

Great news Jim. Thank you.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> It's a shame that neither the UB420/820 or the Samsung K8500 can be set to output native resolution (upscaling to 4K is unable to be defeated when it "sees" a UHD display) and I'm not aware of any UHD player that has that feature............


Sony and Pioneer offer UHD players with source direct outputs.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> I have been away from AVS for a while. We are about to do another release that has significant improvement for DTM. So time for me to check in.
> 
> 
> 
> This release improves the "Adaptive" part of DTM (call it ADTM). We had some "pumping" issues with ADTM that are now resolved. There are also a number of other improvements. Some apply to many scenes and some are more specific to a small class of scene types. I have been surprised at how Patrick has been able to continue to improve on the already excellent scene detection, and scene adaptive function (the ADTM). I think you will be excited by the improvements.
> 
> 
> 
> We have also had a few people (more than a few?) messing about with the DTM parameters and getting themselves in a bad state. So, this release will also have a simplified DTM user interface in "User Mode." If you insist on more "rope," the current interface will still be available in Service Mode. Just be aware that we believe the defaults are the best settings and changes you make to parameters not shown in User Mode will likely degrade the image rather than improve it.
> 
> 
> 
> We are simplifying the DTM parameter menu in User Mode. The DTM parameter menu (left arrow) will be:
> 
> 
> 
> Low Ratio: 0 to 63 (Default = 31)
> 
> DynPad: 0 to 7 (Default = 3)
> 
> DeSat: 0 to 15 (default = 4)
> 
> Global Max Light: 100 to 9990 (default = 500)
> 
> 
> 
> You need to set the Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu (or it is now shown in the DTM parameter menu as Global Max Light). I am recommending five (5) times the measured light in nits. This multiple is a trade off between brighter scenes (lower Max Light), and color saturation (higher Max Light). I am considering more testing using a multiple of four (4) times measured maximum light, but not there yet. Also, I have talked to some who prefer a multiple of 3 to 4. This is a personal choice and can also depend on if you have a lower light output projector and want a brighter image.
> 
> 
> 
> Note that if you have values other than the above defaults in your unit, they will not be changed by the update. You would need to reset the HDR parameters (each input and input memory or change one and copy to the others. Then do a Save).
> 
> 
> 
> Some have asked why the Max Light is not set to 1X measured light in nits. The "1X measured light" setting is in the mix, but for "dark scenes" as it needs to be. We will show the effective Low Light Max in this menu. You can look a the "effective Max Light" (adjusted by Low Ratio) and adjust until it is about 1X measured light (or your preferred multiple for low light scenes).
> 
> 
> 
> Note that, as shown, the new default for "Low Ratio" is 31 (currently 15). Using 15 still works well, but with the improvements in the DTM we are seeing that you can raise this value (reducing the dark scene effective max light and raising brightness) without seeing clipping. Setting the Low-set ratio to 31 will result in roughly “1X” measured light (assuming Max Light is in the 5x range) for dark scenes. We have exended the Low Ratio range. It was -31 to 31, and now is 0 to 63. We eliminated negative numbers as they do not make sense to use, but were still showing up in some questions I received.
> 
> 
> 
> We are also changing the default DynPad to 3 (currently 6). Again this is because the improvement allow a brighter image without showing clipping. With a setting of 3 we do not expect there to be visible clipping. However, even a settings of 2, or 1, may have few scenes where there might be a bit of clipping of highlights. However the overall image will be brighter. I am currently using DynPad = 3 but experimenting with settings of 1 and 2. I believe Kris Deering is already choosing to set DynPad = 1. So you might want to try 1, 2, and 3 for DynPad to see which you prefer.
> 
> 
> 
> DeSat (de-saturation) has not changed. We left it in for User Mode since some like to have a different setting for this.
> 
> 
> 
> Note: The ADTM parameters are per-input and per-input-memory, except for "Global Max Light." It is "global" to all inputs and input memories that use the currently active CMS (which is typically CMS1 for HDR). For example if the current CMS for HDR is CMS1, this Global Max Light is the same value as CMS1->HDR Mapping->HDR Mapping->Max Light.
> 
> 
> 
> Note: If you want the settings (excepting Max Light) to apply to other inputs or input memories, use the "Input Copy" command to copy to the other inputs and/or memories. As always, make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.
> 
> 
> 
> There are a few other additions to the user interface. For example you can now program the right arrow to bring up test patterns rather than the Darbee menu, or program the up/down arrows to step through Input Aspect Ratio selections. This release fixes an issue using NLS with "Auto Aspect" that was recently reported.
> 
> 
> 
> These improvements should be in a release in the next day or two.




Looking forward for this big update  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgkula

Kris Deering said:


> Sony and Pioneer offer UHD players with source direct outputs.





docrog said:


> Thanks! That's very useful information. Unfortunately, I was planning on purchasing the 4240 configuration (only 2 inputs) and, as I'm currently configured, I have 5 potential devices. Of these, one is the UB820 UHD player which is set at "auto" resolution meaning that it will upscale any content, other than 3D Blu Ray discs, to 4K. Because of this feature, I'll have to keep my Oppo 103D in the video chain (to be set at native resolution) if I want the Lumagen to perform upscaling of 480/1080p discs (rather than in the UB820).
> 
> It's a shame that neither the UB420/820 or the Samsung K8500 can be set to output native resolution (upscaling to 4K is unable to be defeated when it "sees" a UHD display) and I'm not aware of any UHD player that has that feature............


You can set a memory or virtual input to send EDID for 1080p to the input device (e.g. UB820). In auto mode this will keep the UB820 from upscaling to 4k so the Lumagen can do it. So I dont believe that you need the Oppo for this. I have a Harmony remote sequence for "Watch UHD BR" and "Watch HD" BR. The Panny UB900 is set to "auto" and for the latter sequence the remote sends the code for a memory that forced EDID for 1080p to the Panny so it sends 1080p and the Lumagen upscales. I think this is what you want ... so sell that Oppo! I dont think you could set the EDID to send 480p though ...


----------



## docrog

dgkula said:


> You can set a memory or virtual input to send EDID for 1080p to the input device (e.g. UB820). In auto mode this will keep the UB820 from upscaling to 4k so the Lumagen can do it. So I dont believe that you need the Oppo for this. I have a Harmony remote sequence for "Watch UHD BR" and "Watch HD" BR. The Panny UB900 is set to "auto" and for the latter sequence the remote sends the code for a memory that forced EDID for 1080p to the Panny so it sends 1080p and the Lumagen upscales. I think this is what you want ... so sell that Oppo! I don't think you could set the EDID to send 480p though ...


Thanks for those suggestions, but I still have a fairly large collection of DVDs which are highly unlikely to ever be released in Blu Ray format (even if I wanted to purchase them again). Also, FWIW, the Oppo will never be sold since it's my player for the SACD collection.


----------



## alex_t

docrog said:


> Thanks! That's very useful information. Unfortunately, I was planning on purchasing the 4240 configuration (only 2 inputs) and, as I'm currently configured, I have 5 potential devices. Of these, one is the UB820 UHD player which is set at "auto" resolution meaning that it will upscale any content, other than 3D Blu Ray discs, to 4K. Because of this feature, I'll have to keep my Oppo 103D in the video chain (to be set at native resolution) if I want the Lumagen to perform upscaling of 480/1080p discs (rather than in the UB820). The Roku Ultra and ATV4K are set at 4K resolution, so Darbee can't be applied. The TiVo Bolt is set at native resolution and will be upscaled in the Lumagen, but Darbee isn't presently being applied here.
> 
> Can the mapping feature be configured so that (with only 2 Lumagen inputs) it sees the Oppo's AVR input as a separate device and the remaining devices (AVR inputs) as only one device? If not, I guess the workaround would be to keep Darbee turned on in the Oppo (with native resolution output) and not enable Darbee in the Lumagen. In that case, the mapping feature wouldn't be necessary. I had planned to turn off the Oppo's Darbee feature once the Lumagen was in the video chain since I wasn't certain about how the Lumagen's upscaling would interface with legacy content signal that already had Darbee processing applied. It's a shame that neither the UB420/820 or the Samsung K8500 can be set to output native resolution (upscaling to 4K is unable to be defeated when it "sees" a UHD display) and I'm not aware of any UHD player that has that feature............



Hello,


I think all the models allow to manage up to 8 virtual HDMI inputs. To be checked with Lumagen team (through an email you should receive an answer quickly)


----------



## docrog

Can Lumagen enable Darbee processing to be applied to 3D Blu Ray (1080p) movies? The user manual indicates that Darbee is applicable up to 1080p, but the Darbee section doesn't make reference to 3D movies. Thanks!


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> Can Lumagen enable Darbee processing to be applied to 3D Blu Ray (1080p) movies? The user manual indicates that Darbee is applicable up to 1080p, but the Darbee section doesn't make reference to 3D movies. Thanks!


Absolutely. It´s my favourite choice to use it. Absolutely stunning combined with Sony Reality Creation on a 995ES.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Absolutely. It´s my favourite choice to use it. Absolutely stunning combined with Sony Reality Creation on a 995ES.


That's great to know! The Lumagen's user manual doesn't mention Darbee in section #11 (3D Support). Can the user enable Darbee universally (except for UHD content) or does it have to be selected alá carte? I anticipate that the Lumagen will be located between the AVR & PJ in my video chain, so *ALL* resolutions of video will appear to the Lumagen as originating under one "wrapper", without discrete devices being plugged into a 4240.


----------



## Eventidal

Unfortunately the Darbee cannot be used for 4k sources, even if you want to output only 1080. I asked Jim several times to move the Darbee to the end of the processing chain but he refused to do so. It still upsets me  

You can select the Darbee via quick menu (arrow right to see if it is available) and you can save it individually to each input config, using various settings.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Eventidal said:


> Unfortunately the Darbee cannot be used for 4k sources, even if you want to output only 1080. I asked Jim several times to move the Darbee to the end of the processing chain but he refused to do so. It still upsets me
> 
> You can select the Darbee via quick menu (arrow right to see if it is available) and you can save it individually to each input config, using various settings.


Unfortunately the inventor of Darbee passed away a few years ago. Darbee was never available for 4k processing or patented as such. Lumagen I'm sure is licensing Darbee as it is, processing 2k. Accordingly, it can't be at the end of the Radiance Pro's processing chain as it can only process 2k, and after any Darbee is applied, then the Radiance Pro can output 2k in 4k.


----------



## docrog

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Unfortunately the inventor of Darbee passed away a few years ago. Darbee was never available for 4k processing or patented as such. Lumagen I'm sure is licensing Darbee as it is, processing 2k. Accordingly, it can't be at the end of the Radiance Pro's processing chain as it can only process 2k, and after any Darbee is applied, then the Radiance Pro can output 2k in 4k.


I'm confused now. I am aware that Darbee processing could not be applied to native UHD content. In my current set-up, my Oppo 103D is able to use Darbee to enhance SD & HD discs. The output from my Oppo is set at 4K for all video and there's no indication that Darbee processing has been disabled. Are you suggesting that Darbee would only be relevant for 3D Blu Ray when using the Lumagen to upscale legacy content to 4K?


----------



## docrog

I've completed reading the user manual in anticipation of receiving the 4240. There will only be one input used: my Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR which will perform all video switching. My Oppo 103D can output SD & HD discs at source direct for up-scaling in the Lumagen. I potentially have the option of applying Darbee processing in the Oppo, so it would arrive already processed at the Lumagen *or *applying Darbee initially in the Lumagen (unprocessed video from the Oppo). Is one of these optional pathways likely to produce a better end product? It seems to me that I might not have to set up individual memories if the Oppo initially applies the Darbee processing. If the optimal pathway is for the Lumagen to receive unprocessed/native SD & HD content and then apply Darbee processing, could I set up the Lumagen memory settings via the remote as follows: "A"= all UHD sources (ATV4K, Roku Ultra, UHD Blu Ray discs; no Darbee), "B"= Lumagen Up-scaled 2D 1080p Blu Ray discs with Darbee, "C"= Lumagen up-scaled SD DVD content with Darbee, "D"= native 1080p 3D content with Darbee? Many thanks for helping me work through this issue!


----------



## Eventidal

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> . Accordingly, it can't be at the end of the Radiance Pro's processing chain as it can only process 2k, and after any Darbee is applied, then the Radiance Pro can output 2k in 4k.


Jim said himself it was possible to move the Darbee to the end of the processing chain when the 4k signal has been converted to 2k.


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> I'm confused now. I am aware that Darbee processing could not be applied to native UHD content. In my current set-up, my Oppo 103D is able to use Darbee to enhance SD & HD discs. The output from my Oppo is set at 4K for all video and there's no indication that Darbee processing has been disabled. Are you suggesting that Darbee would only be relevant for 3D Blu Ray when using the Lumagen to upscale legacy content to 4K?


Any 2D / 3D 1080p source can be used with Darbee in the Lumagen.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Any 2D / 3D 1080p source can be used with Darbee in the Lumagen.


As well as SD DVD's as in the Oppo? I know that 3D is output at 1080p (so Darbee compatibility isn't an issue), but what about if Darbee processing is applied to SD & HD content which is subsequently upscaled to 4K in Lumagen?


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> As well as SD DVD's as in the Oppo? I know that 3D is output at 1080p (so Darbee compatibility isn't an issue), but what about if Darbee processing is applied to SD & HD content which is subsequently upscaled to 4K in Lumagen?


If the content arrives as 1080p you can add the Darbee, no problem. The Lumagen will upscale to 4k then. I just much rather use Direct Output from the Oppo 203 and let the Sony do the upscaling via Reality Creation of 1080p content. Looks better, seems the picture is sharper and has more detail. The Reality Creation does not work as well with 4k content.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> If the content arrives as 1080p you can add the Darbee, no problem. The Lumagen will upscale to 4k then. I just much rather use Direct Output from the Oppo 203 and let the Sony do the upscaling via Reality Creation of 1080p content. Looks better, seems the picture is sharper and has more detail. The Reality Creation does not work as well with 4k content.


You prefer to have the Sony do the upscaling, rather than the Lumagen????? I thought that, prior to HDR DTM, the quality of Lumagen's upscaling was one of *THE* primary reasons for purchase. No???


----------



## nbynw

Am I the only one checking the Lumagen website every 10 minutes in hopes of the update!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CDJayRFU

Nope, I am too 

We've started the Witcher series on Netflix, which makes my wife very happy, and I'd be elated should the update appear before we end the series run!

We're on Episode 2. *Hint* *Hint* 

CDJay


----------



## aeneas01

1. windows 10 htpc (resolution set to 3840x2160, hdr toggled on) > vertex (edid port 0 and 1 set to 11., no scaling) > epson 6050ub projector.


projector image is rock solid, no drop outs or flickering, no green flash on screen when handshakes occur.


2. windows 10 htpc (resolution set to 3840x2160, hdr toggled on) > vertex (edid port 0 and 1 set to 11., no scaling) > *radiance pro (2x 18ghz input cards, 2 x 9ghx output cards)* > epson 6050ub projector.


projector can't lock onto signal, have to drop vertex edid to 24hz to get it to lock, annoying green flashing on screen when handshakes occur.


i feel like i've tried every radiance pro setting, starting with default, to get the vertex input to play nice with my projector, to play like it does when the pro is out of the loop, what am i doing worng?


thanks!


----------



## tnaik4

CDJayRFU said:


> Nope, I am too /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
> 
> We've started the Witcher series on Netflix, which makes my wife very happy, and I'd be elated should the update appear before we end the series run!
> 
> We're on Episode 2. *Hint* *Hint* /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif
> 
> CDJay


Haha i m on episode 2 right now also and keep checking this thread if the update is released, 1st episode looked amazing though.
I think ill stop after this one to wait for the update.


----------



## Mike Garrett

CDJayRFU said:


> Nope, I am too
> 
> We've started the Witcher series on Netflix, which makes my wife very happy, and I'd be elated should the update appear before we end the series run!
> 
> We're on Episode 2. *Hint* *Hint*
> 
> CDJay


Started watching it this evening. On Episode 6 right now.


----------



## docrog

I'd appreciate it if an owner of both the Lumagen Radiance Pro and a DTM updated JVC NX7/9-RS2000/3000 (*NOT* an earlier JVC e-shifter or 4500) *without* an additional anamorphic lens could comment on how the viewing experience is enhanced by the addition of the Lumagen. Thanks!


----------



## Craig Peer

nbynw said:


> Am I the only one checking the Lumagen website every 10 minutes in hopes of the update!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, you are not. I predict Dec. 23rd will be the day - which means it will be a Festivus Miracle !


----------



## kaotikr1

docrog said:


> I'd appreciate it if an owner of both the Lumagen Radiance Pro and JVC NX7/9-RS2000/3000 (*NOT* earlier JVC e-shifter or 4500) *without* an additional anamorphic lens could comment on how the viewing experience is enhanced by the addition of the Lumagen. Thanks!


For me personally, since I live in an area that makes it difficult to reasonable get a calibrator to my home I got into the Lumagen for the auto calibration features. I love being able to run an auto calibration and walk away and come back to a calibrated picture. So I didn't use a lot of the features as I didn't feel I needed to. 

Fast forward to HDR and for me and a lot of others the DTM has been amazing and a game changer. With the Pro and the RS2000 I knew that for that budget pairing I was getting the best I could out of my system. I can't give figures, or measurements on the differences, but I do know that I am getting the best HDR picture I can at this time. 

Another huge thing for me has been the support that Jim and his team provide, it is some of the best support not only in the industry but just service in general. They are always working to improve the Lumagen and will continue to invest in making it an excellent platform. 

At the end of the day, like any upgrade people seems to perceive improvements differently. I know for me personally, I don't ever plan on being without a Lumagen in the chain, It's something that I just dont think I could go on without. Looking back at your posts, it seems your on the fence and I would suggest you take that leap and take some time to really get to know your Lumagen and get it dialed in and you will be very happy.


----------



## docrog

kaotikr1 said:


> Fast forward to HDR and for me and a lot of others the DTM has been amazing and a game changer. With the Pro and the RS2000 I knew that for that budget pairing I was getting the best I could out of my system. I can't give figures, or measurements on the differences, but I do know that I am getting the best HDR picture I can at this time.


Thanks for your reply. I wasn't asking for figures or measurements, just how you might have perceived the differences (benefits) of the Lumagen compared with the DTM of your RS2000 (assuming that you performed the recent firmware upgrade). Posters have used euphemisms like "in a different league", etc. but have never provided anything more descriptive. You're correct, I had been on the fence. I've now decided to go through with the purchase of a 18G 4240, but I'd really like to be on the lookout for how others have found the displayed image to surpass what's already a truly excellent with HDR image from the NX7 subsequent to the DTM upgrade. Blood out of a stone????


----------



## kaotikr1

docrog said:


> Thanks for your reply. I wasn't asking for figures or measurements, just how you might have perceived the differences (benefits) of the Lumagen compared with the DTM of your RS2000 (assuming that you performed the recent firmware upgrade). Posters have used euphemisms like "in a different league", etc. but have never provided anything more descriptive. You're correct, I had been on the fence. I've now decided to go through with the purchase of a 18G 4240, but I'd really like to be on the lookout for how others have found the displayed image to surpass what's already a truly excellent with HDR image from the NX7 subsequent to the DTM upgrade. Blood out of a stone????


I totally get what your trying to get from the users, but for me it would be hard to put into words what the difference is I seeing. Also, it would take quite a bit of effort for those of us that have Lumagens that have been calibrated to pull off a true test. The calibration for my setup lies within my Lumagen, so if it was taken out of the chain to video the JVC DTM, it would introduce more variables than juts a true DTM to DTM comparison. I also think that Jim and his team will continue to make strides on improving the DTM vs JVC who might tweak some things here and there, but we are going to see many updates as Jim and the team find ways to improve DTM. 

I think it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts after you get yours, to see if it met your expectations. Glad you got one coming, I think you will be impressed.


----------



## docrog

kaotikr1 said:


> I totally get what your trying to get from the users, but for me it would be hard to put into words what the difference is I seeing. Also, it would take quite a bit of effort for those of us that have Lumagens that have been calibrated to pull off a true test. The calibration for my setup lies within my Lumagen, so if it was taken out of the chain to video the JVC DTM, it would introduce more variables than juts a true DTM to DTM comparison. I also think that Jim and his team will continue to make strides on improving the DTM vs JVC who might tweak some things here and there, but we are going to see many updates as Jim and the team find ways to improve DTM. I think it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts after you get yours, to see if it met your expectations. Glad you got one coming, I think you will be impressed.


I totally appreciate the ongoing effort being made by the team at Lumagen to constantly improve the function & quality of their product. Frankly, however, I'd be surprised if I'll have my "socks blown off" by the differences in DTM (even with the upcoming Lumagen update), given how frame by frame DTM looks on my NX7 which had beautifully calibrated by Chad B. (he thought that I might have obtained a golden sample). I still have (and watch) a large collection of DVDs (including "This Is Spinal Tap" which I watched earlier today) and Blu Rays and I'm anticipating that the upscaling provided by the current Lumagen will surpass that of my older generation Oppo 103D or Panasonic UB820. I also anticipate that the Lumagen has the potential to deliver a better image for my 3D Blu Ray collection. Where I'm actually excited about HDR DTM from the Lumagen is with UHD streaming from Netflix & Amazon. The increased processing power may show substantial improvement compared with the NX7. I expect to be able to offer my subjective views in early January......


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> You prefer to have the Sony do the upscaling, rather than the Lumagen????? I thought that, prior to HDR DTM, the quality of Lumagen's upscaling was one of *THE* primary reasons for purchase. No???


Well, what I have read here it beats JVCs upscaling, but thats about it. Sonys reality creation is good, panasonic is good and also the newer AI upscalers are a lot better.

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## docrog

MDesigns said:


> Well, what I have read here it beats JVCs upscaling, but thats about it. Sonys reality creation is good, panasonic is good and also the newer AI upscalers are a lot better.
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


Thanks! I'm unfamiliar with AI upscalers. Could you please provide examples? BTW, are you suggesting that Lumagen's current upscaling algorithm lags behind most competitors (either PJ or player)???


----------



## tnaik4

the firmware is up guys !

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> Thanks! I'm unfamiliar with AI upscalers. Could you please provide examples? BTW, *are you suggesting that Lumagen's current upscaling algorithm lags behind most competitors (either PJ *or player)???


 I would most certainly hope that is not what he is suggesting. It would certainly not be consistent with my experience (I have no experience with MadVR).


----------



## tnaik4

how can i set the left arrow to be set to bring up HDR settings, it just changes the aspect ratio now, that is how it came as default i never changed it .


----------



## Mike Garrett

MDesigns said:


> Well, what I have read here it beats JVCs upscaling, but thats about it. Sonys reality creation is good, panasonic is good and also the newer AI upscalers are a lot better.
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


I can go read that the earth is flat, but that does not mean that it is true. RC, along with it being an upscaling algorithm, it is a sharpening algorithm also. Many people mistake the sharpening for improved scaling.


----------



## Mike Garrett

tnaik4 said:


> the firmware is up guys !
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates


Just loaded it onto my Lumagen, but will not get to look at it until tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## tnaik4

Mike Garrett said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the firmware is up guys !
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> Just loaded it onto my Lumagen, but will not get to look at it until tomorrow afternoon. /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
Click to expand...

It was 3am my time when it was released hahah, i loaded it up and tested it till 5am.
Its pretty nice!! The picture now is brighter while looking better at the same time. Great job indeed for the lumagen team.
I did leave all the default settings but just preferred to use transition 8 instead of 7, will test it further .
The only place where lumagen can improve the DTM is highlight revovery, when comparing back to back with madVR u can see a lot more highlights than the radiance in some scenes.
It was very obvious in Avengers :Infinity War in the snow scene in the beginning, i will add the time stamp and couple of pics later.


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> You prefer to have the Sony do the upscaling, rather than the Lumagen????? I thought that, prior to HDR DTM, the quality of Lumagen's upscaling was one of *THE* primary reasons for purchase. No???


Sony´s Reality Creation is the best upscaling function I have ever seen. Nothing close to it. - my take...


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Sony´s Reality Creation is the best upscaling function I have ever seen. Nothing close to it. - my take...


Could you possibly be more specific regarding the advantages of Reality Creation when compared with Lumagen upscaling (plus Darbee enhancement/processing)? The origin of Reality Creation is over 20 years old, so I would have anticipated that Lumagen would be able to utilize state-of-the-art algorithms in their upscaling of legacy content.


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> Could you possibly be more specific regarding the advantages of Reality Creation when compared with Lumagen upscaling (plus Darbee enhancement/processing)?


As i mentioned before RC seems to create higher resolution and results in better sharpness. I use Direct Output all of the time and I am using the Darbee with RC for 1080p content rather than upscaling 1080p content to 2160p by the Lumagen. 

RC has more impact on the picture. Then the Darbee adds the flavour  Combined it is incredible with 3D on my 995ES.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> As i mentioned before RC seems to create higher resolution and results in better sharpness. I use Direct Output all of the time and I am using the Darbee with RC for 1080p content rather than upscaling 1080p content to 2160p by the Lumagen.
> 
> RC has more impact on the picture. Then the Darbee adds the flavour  Combined it is incredible with 3D on my 995ES.


Unfortunately, the NX7 appears to fall short of the UB820 & Oppo for upscaling to 4K, so I'm hoping that the Lumagen's upscaling will outperform those latter two. The NX7 does a fine job projecting 3D, so I'm looking forward to pairing it with Lumagen & Darbee (as I previously did with the 103D & Darbee). BTW, since 3D 1080p isn't further upscaled by a native 4K PJ, how does Reality Creation factor into your 3D viewing if Darbee (from the Lumagen) is already adding sharpening?


----------



## audioguy

Eventidal said:


> As i mentioned before RC seems to create higher resolution and results in better sharpness. I use Direct Output all of the time and I am using the Darbee with RC for 1080p content rather than upscaling 1080p content to 2160p by the Lumagen.
> 
> RC has more impact on the picture. Then the Darbee adds the flavour  Combined it is incredible with 3D on my 995ES.



Lest we forget, much of our decision process on these audio and video matters includes PREFERENCE. While one may technically be more "correct" than the other, that does not always transfer to what one prefers. While I have not used the Darbee function in my Lumagen, when I had a separate Darbee processor, I always set it a tad more aggressive than many since that is how I preferred it.


----------



## Eventidal

audioguy said:


> Lest we forget, much of our decision process on these audio and video matters includes PREFERENCE. While one may technically be more "correct" than the other, that does not always transfer to what one prefers. While I have not used the Darbee function in my Lumagen, when I had a separate Darbee processor, I always set it a tad more aggressive than many since that is how I preferred it.


I cannot agree more on this. Well said!


----------



## OMARDRIS

*Firmware 120419*

Hi Jim and Patrick,
I have just made a first test of the new firmware 120419. Respect, you did a good job and the longer waiting time was worth it.
And the default settings for DTM are absolutely usable, so we now have a plug and play solution for DTM. Especially great is that the settings also fit well for HDR streaming. I am surprised myself how often I use the streaming services.
Peter


----------



## Mike Garrett

I have been checking out several scenes with the new firmware. Definite improvement. Looks fantastic. Dark scenes on my RS3000 look jaw dropping.


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> While I have not used the Darbee function in my Lumagen, when I had a separate Darbee processor, I always set it a tad more aggressive than many since that is how I preferred it.


Since you've written that you previously employed (and enjoyed) your Darblet, what's your reasoning behind never having enabled Darbee with your Lumagen?


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> Since you've written that you previously employed (and enjoyed) your Darblet, what's your reasoning behind never having enabled Darbee with your Lumagen?



Fair question. Answer: (1) the vast majority of what I watch is 4K; (2) I just have not gotten around to trying it, but will now that this subject has come up (once I can figure out where it is in the Lumagen menu system).


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> I have been checking out several scenes with the new firmware. Definite improvement. Looks fantastic. Dark scenes on my RS3000 look jaw dropping.


Did you change any of the parameters?


----------



## Ash Sharma

tnaik4 said:


> The only place where lumagen can improve the DTM is highlight revovery, when comparing back to back with madVR u can see a lot more highlights than the radiance in some scenes.
> It was very obvious in Avengers :Infinity War in the snow scene in the beginning, i will add the time stamp and couple of pics later.


WOW... so a comparison from a real user who has both MadVR and Lumagen - if the performance is very close already and Lumagen improves the 'Highlights' (not sure if the FPGA has the horse power) then we have something good going here.... for the Lumagen.


----------



## audioguy

Ash Sharma said:


> WOW... so a comparison from a real user who has both MadVR and Lumagen - if the performance is very close already and Lumagen improves the 'Highlights' (not sure if the FPGA has the horse power) *then we have something good going here.... for the Lumagen*.



Actually, we already do have something good going here! And it keeps getting better. As it is now, unless I see something really glaringly wrong, I don't even think about any improvements that might be necessary.


----------



## Ash Sharma

audioguy said:


> Actually, we already do have something good going here! And it keeps getting better. As it is now, unless I see something really glaringly wrong, I don't even think about any improvements that might be necessary.


I am always looking for the 100% for my setup BUT with Lumagen's stability - many many other features such as regular support, auto AR and Masking all the inputs and audio out to keep HDMI stable ... if say it is even 90% as good as MadVR (which I have not seen in action) - then at least I know what my choice will be...
After fooling with my theater for last three years to bring ATMOS and Dolby Vision type Picture... my goal is to take a breather and enjoy it in 2020 and refrain from upgrades.
The best part is there is soooo much good content out there that I am actually very very behind in my viewing and a lot to catch up in months to come.


----------



## mhafner

Unfortunately the latest firmware is not stable here. It worked some time and then the Lumagen crashed and would not restart. A hard power off/on restart had it turn itself off again quickly.
To be sure I reloaded the new firmware with force option but it did not help. I had to revert back
to the previous firmware. This was with a JVC NX7 as display.


----------



## dinamigym

I’m running new FW on Sony 5000. Image is looking spectacular IMO using default settings and no other calibration done. Just a 5000 on its latest FW and the Lumagen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

tnaik4 said:


> It was 3am my time when it was released hahah, i loaded it up and tested it till 5am.
> Its pretty nice!! The picture now is brighter while looking better at the same time. Great job indeed for the lumagen team.
> I did leave all the default settings but just preferred to use transition 8 instead of 7, will test it further .
> The only place where lumagen can improve the DTM is highlight revovery, when comparing back to back with madVR u can see a lot more highlights than the radiance in some scenes.
> It was very obvious in Avengers :Infinity War in the snow scene in the beginning, i will add the time stamp and couple of pics later.


Good input but also a clear example of why I am so weary about people doing "comparisons" with stuff like MadVR that are not savvy on setting up the Lumagen properly. 

You mention that the Lumagen needs to improve in highlight recovery and then say that you are using DPAD at 8. DPAD is EXACTLY the setting that has to do with highlight recovery and you have it at the worst setting for exactly that. A properly setup Lumagen should not exceed a value of 3 if properly setup, and that is absolute worst case. With the new firmware, a properly setup Lumagen should be able to use DPAD at 1 with no issues with 99.9999999999999% of content. This is a dynamic solution so there always may be an outlier but it would be EXTREMELY rare (I've been testing this latest processing for weeks now looking for examples that break it and to say it is rare is an understatement). You will find that highlight preservation is drastically better at DPAD 1 because highlights are nearly 1:1 more often than not with little to no dynamic padding.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ash Sharma said:


> WOW... so a comparison from a real user who has both MadVR and Lumagen - if the performance is very close already and Lumagen improves the 'Highlights' (not sure if the FPGA has the horse power) then we have something good going here.... for the Lumagen.


I tried dpad at 1, to see if I saw any errors and I did not. Watched half of Alita and all of John Wick 3 with dpad at 1.


----------



## Kris Deering

Couple input on this new build. I worked with Jim and Pat on some suggestions for ease of use that Jim and I have been discussing for quite a while now. The HDR quick menu is a great example (Menu mode needs to be USER for this, which I recommend to EVERYONE). But there were also some other tweaks that I wanted for everyday use. 

If you go into MENU>OTHER>IO Setup>Remote you can now change how the arrow keys work. By default, left arrow is HDR settings, right arrow is Darbee and up and down are zoom. You can now make the right arrow bring up the test patterns directly (great for quick looks and it defaults to a fantastic pattern for a quick check of your focus). You can also change the up and down arrows to cycle through the various aspect ratios so you don't have to futz with the ALT + (aspect ratio) buttons for some of the more obscure aspects when you want to force one (for those that don't use auto aspect). There is also a setting to make the 1.85 hard button work like the rest of them (based on a 1.78 display system) as opposed to the old "letterboxed" style 1.85. Just set it to "NEW" style and it now works like all the other aspect ratio buttons already did. 

I also asked them to make it where any labeling done in the menu system shows across all the menus now. So if you label an input, you should see that label not only in the menus but also in the status menu as well. For some reason those labels were not displaying across all screens, they do now.


----------



## Mike Garrett

mhafner said:


> Unfortunately the latest firmware is not stable here. It worked some time and then the Lumagen crashed and would not restart. A hard power off/on restart had it turn itself off again quickly.
> To be sure I reloaded the new firmware with force option but it did not help. I had to revert back
> to the previous firmware. This was with a JVC NX7 as display.


RS3000 here and zero issues after several hours of use.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Good input but also a clear example of why I am so weary about people doing "comparisons" with stuff like MadVR that are not savvy on setting up the Lumagen properly.
> 
> You mention that the Lumagen needs to improve in highlight recovery and then say that you are using DPAD at 8. DPAD is EXACTLY the setting that has to do with highlight recovery and you have it at the worst setting for exactly that. A properly setup Lumagen should not exceed a value of 3 if properly setup, and that is absolute worst case. With the new firmware, a properly setup Lumagen should be able to use DPAD at 1 with no issues with 99.9999999999999% of content. This is a dynamic solution so there always may be an outlier but it would be EXTREMELY rare (I've been testing this latest processing for weeks now looking for examples that break it and to say it is rare is an understatement). You will find that highlight preservation is drastically better at DPAD 1 because highlights are nearly 1:1 more often than not with little to no dynamic padding.


Has the function of DPAD changed then? When I last looked at this I thought DPAD was more about reserving headroom for highlights at the cost of image brightness, and the higher settings reserved more and had a generally darker image than lower settings; with lower DPAD settings resulting in more clipping and hence highlights blowing out more often rather than less. 

I've not updated to the latest firmware yet - are the issues @mhafner reports being seen by anyone else?


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> So if you label an input, you should see that label not only in the menus but also in the status menu as well. For some reason those labels were not displaying across all screens, they do now.


Kris, does this new labeling function also apply to "virtual" inputs as well as physical inputs?


----------



## tnaik4

Ash Sharma said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only place where lumagen can improve the DTM is highlight revovery, when comparing back to back with madVR u can see a lot more highlights than the radiance in some scenes.
> It was very obvious in Avengers :Infinity War in the snow scene in the beginning, i will add the time stamp and couple of pics later.
> 
> 
> 
> WOW... so a comparison from a real user who has both MadVR and Lumagen - if the performance is very close already and Lumagen improves the 'Highlights' (not sure if the FPGA has the horse power) then we have something good going here.... for the Lumagen.
Click to expand...

Yes ive been comparing them back and forth last 10 days since i got my radiance pro.
Being a new radiance user i didnt want to judge it from the get go until i get the hang of it and know what i m doing with regards to dtm/3dlut.
Today's update is a very good step forward, its more of a plug and play than before as i was changing the settings a lot to make it match closely madVR tonemapping. But once i got it very close in some scenes it wasnt in others so ihad again to change the hdr settings.
With the latest update i no longer need to change much, i just like to have transition to 8 instead of 7 and that is it.
MadVR dtm looks more contrasty with the latest addition of HSTM but that can be added to lumagen later.
Other than that they are pretty close except highlight recovery, in some scenes i can see many more details with madVR .
Lumagen is doing an excellent job in my opninion specially being in such a small factor, Jim mentioned not long ago that there is a lot of power left in the FPGA so things will only get better and better


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good input but also a clear example of why I am so weary about people doing "comparisons" with stuff like MadVR that are not savvy on setting up the Lumagen properly.
> 
> You mention that the Lumagen needs to improve in highlight recovery and then say that you are using DPAD at 8. DPAD is EXACTLY the setting that has to do with highlight recovery and you have it at the worst setting for exactly that. A properly setup Lumagen should not exceed a value of 3 if properly setup, and that is absolute worst case. With the new firmware, a properly setup Lumagen should be able to use DPAD at 1 with no issues with 99.9999999999999% of content. This is a dynamic solution so there always may be an outlier but it would be EXTREMELY rare (I've been testing this latest processing for weeks now looking for examples that break it and to say it is rare is an understatement). You will find that highlight preservation is drastically better at DPAD 1 because highlights are nearly 1:1 more often than not with little to no dynamic padding.
> 
> 
> 
> Has the function of DPAD changed then? When I last looked at this I thought DPAD was more about reserving headroom for highlights at the cost of image brightness, and the higher settings reserved more and had a generally darker image than lower settings; with lower DPAD settings resulting in more clipping and hence highlights blowing out more often rather than less.
> 
> I've not updated to the latest firmware yet - are the issues @mhafner reports being seen by anyone else?
Click to expand...

Display max light and ratio do more of what you are describing. Dpad is for padding at or near CLL for a scene. So it is directly related to highlight strength where the others are overall dynamic range. 



docrog said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if you label an input, you should see that label not only in the menus but also in the status menu as well. For some reason those labels were not displaying across all screens, they do now.
> 
> 
> 
> Kris, does this new labeling function also apply to "virtual" inputs as well as physical inputs?
Click to expand...

Good question. I don’t use virtual so you’d have to check. But I imagine it would. 



tnaik4 said:


> Ash Sharma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only place where lumagen can improve the DTM is highlight revovery, when comparing back to back with madVR u can see a lot more highlights than the radiance in some scenes.
> It was very obvious in Avengers :Infinity War in the snow scene in the beginning, i will add the time stamp and couple of pics later.
> 
> 
> 
> WOW... so a comparison from a real user who has both MadVR and Lumagen - if the performance is very close already and Lumagen improves the 'Highlights' (not sure if the FPGA has the horse power) then we have something good going here.... for the Lumagen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes ive been comparing them back and forth last 10 days since i got my radiance pro.
> Being a new radiance user i didnt want to judge it from the get go until i get the hang of it and know what i m doing with regards to dtm/3dlut.
> Today's update is a very good step forward, its more of a plug and play than before as i was changing the settings a lot to make it match closely madVR tonemapping. But once i got it very close in some scenes it wasnt in others so ihad again to change the hdr settings.
> With the latest update i no longer need to change much, i just like to have transition to 8 instead of 7 and that is it.
> MadVR dtm looks more contrasty with the latest addition of HSTM but that can be added to lumagen later.
> Other than that they are pretty close except highlight recovery, in some scenes i can see many more details with madVR .
> Lumagen is doing an excellent job in my opninion specially being in such a small factor, Jim mentioned not long ago that there is a lot of power left in the FPGA so things will only get better and better
Click to expand...

As I said before, your DPAd setting is working against you for what you are looking to accomplish.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Display max light and ratio do more of what you are describing. Dpad is for padding at or near CLL for a scene. So it is directly related to highlight strength where the others are overall dynamic range.


OK, thanks for the explanation. I've obviously completely misunderstood how/what it does in that case. I'll have to have a play again once I get the firmware installed (I've been in the rabbithole that is playing with a MiniDSP unit for the last couple of weeks!)


----------



## tnaik4

Kris Deering said:


> Good input but also a clear example of why I am so weary about people doing "comparisons" with stuff like MadVR that are not savvy on setting up the Lumagen properly.
> 
> You mention that the Lumagen needs to improve in highlight recovery and then say that you are using DPAD at 8. DPAD is EXACTLY the setting that has to do with highlight recovery and you have it at the worst setting for exactly that. A properly setup Lumagen should not exceed a value of 3 if properly setup, and that is absolute worst case. With the new firmware, a properly setup Lumagen should be able to use DPAD at 1 with no issues with 99.9999999999999% of content. This is a dynamic solution so there always may be an outlier but it would be EXTREMELY rare (I've been testing this latest processing for weeks now looking for examples that break it and to say it is rare is an understatement). You will find that highlight preservation is drastically better at DPAD 1 because highlights are nearly 1:1 more often than not with little to no dynamic padding.


kris i dont have dpad at 8 , i actually have all the settings at default and only changed the display max light to my max nit multiplied by 4-5 , i said i just tried changing trans to 8 instead of 7 and i liked it more since it gave better pop but all my comparison was with it at 7 which is the default. JIM advise is to keep all the default settings and just change the max light since that gives the best pic and that is exactly what i did .
My DPAD setting was at 3 but i actually preffered it better at 1.


----------



## tnaik4

Kris this the scene i m talking about , its phone pics so not the best quality , this is with default settings and dpad 1 , the highlights are there but not as visible as with madVR , when u see it as whole it makes a very noticeable difference.

dont get me wrong i m already in love with my radiance pro after 2 weeks with it, it is amazing and essential in any system in my opinion, but since i can compare both madVR and the radiance pro i m trying to give some feedback of what can be improved.

i can show different scenes too but i m not sure if that is the thread to post it in as i dont want to annoy anyone with out of topic posts.

also if there is any setting i m missing plz let me know.


----------



## audioguy

tnaik4 said:


> Kris this the scene i m talking about , its phone pics so not the best quality , this is with default settings and dpad 1 , the highlights are there but not as visible as with madVR , when u see it as whole it makes a very noticeable difference.
> 
> dont get me wrong i m already in love with my radiance pro after 2 weeks with it, it is amazing and essential in any system in my opinion, but since i can compare both madVR and the radiance pro i m trying to give some feedback of what can be improved.
> 
> i can show different scenes too but i m not sure if that is the thread to post it in as i dont want to annoy anyone with out of topic posts.
> 
> also if there is any setting i m missing plz let me know.



Which image is MadVR and which is the Lumagen?


----------



## tnaik4

audioguy said:


> Which image is MadVR and which is the Lumagen?


the madVR pc is the 2nd one , if u open them back to back ucan see clearly how much more visible the highlights are with the madVR pic.


----------



## audioguy

tnaik4 said:


> the madVR pc is the 2nd one , if u open them back to back ucan see clearly how much more visible the highlights are with the madVR pic.



This comparison is why I am not a video expert. Certainly the contrast in the 2nd seems better but if you zoom up in the first one, you can see more of the specifics in the "man" than you can in the 2nd. NEITHER of them are problematic in the grand scheme of things *to my eyes*. But certainly if the 2nd is what it is suppose to look like (?), then I am sure it may be helpful to Lumagen.


----------



## tnaik4

audioguy said:


> This comparison is why I am not a video expert. Certainly the contrast in the 2nd seems better but if you zoom up in the first one, you can see more of the specifics in the "man" than you can in the 2nd. NEITHER of them are problematic in the grand scheme of things *to my eyes*. But certainly if the 2nd is what it is suppose to look like (?), then I am sure it may be helpful to Lumagen.


keep in mind that what you are describing is due to the camera , in person its more contrasty but without crushing any black , so all the details in the "man" is there .

and of course neither is problematic , i m not saying that , both are actually excellent, but it doesnt hurt if we can provide more feedback to keep improving things.


----------



## jrp

I don't like discussing comparisons, but I will make an exception for the Inifinity War pictures.

Things to look at:

- I realize these are phone camera photos but they do give a comparison.

- The MadVR looks a bit more contrasty because blacks are completely crushed out of existence. Not a good thing. I looked closely and there remains details in the dark rock areas (as there should be) for the Radiance Pro image, and there is a complete lack of detail in the dark areas of the MadVR image. One may like a more contrasty image but crushing blacks is not the way to get there.

- Another example of the crushed blacks in the MadVR picture is in the creature mid-scene. Look at a close up of MadVR. The creature has almost no detail. Then look at a close up of the Radiance Pro and you will see the detail that is missing in the MadVR image. The detail that needs to be there in a correctly rendered image.

- Look at the color of the snow. I have to believe that the bright white shown in the Radiance Pro is correct versus the off color "dingy" snow in the MadVR image.

I really don't see how anyone can think the Radiance Pro is anything but significantly better and, very importantly, a more accurate rendering of the scene. I have spent thousands of hours analyzing scenes, and hope I have a "Grader's eye" for what is important and correct in images. Our goal is to match a professional grader for every scene, and every frame (if any grader actually would even consider grading every frame), of the movie.

I realize people want to compare, but I think it is important that before anyone publishes comparisons that they understand what is important in video quality analysis, and how the image should be rendered. I don't mean to cause offense, but people read the conclusion, and even though it is wrong, go with it.

No question the Pro wins this round hands down. Not saying bad things about MadVR. Just that the Pro remains the best video processor available and it shows when one knows what to look for.


----------



## tnaik4

jrp said:


> I don't like discussing comparisons, but I will make an exception for the Inifinity War pictures.
> 
> Things to look at:
> 
> - I realize these are phone camera photos but they do give a comparison.
> 
> - The MadVR looks a bit more contrasty because blacks are completely crushed out of existence. Not a good thing. I looked closely and there remains details in the dark rock areas (as there should be) for the Radiance Pro image, and there is a complete lack of detail in the dark areas of the MadVR image. One may like a more contrasty image but crushing blacks is not the way to get there.
> 
> - Another example of the crushed blacks in the MadVR picture is in the creature mid-scene. Look at a close up of MadVR. The creature has almost no detail. Then look at a close up of the Radiance Pro and you will see the detail that is missing in the MadVR image. The detail that needs to be there in a correctly rendered image.
> 
> - Look at the color of the snow. I have to believe that the bright white shown in the Radiance Pro is correct versus the off color "dingy" snow in the MadVR image.
> 
> I really don't see how anyone can think the Radiance Pro is anything but significantly better and, very importantly, a more accurate rendering of the scene. I have spent thousands of hours analyzing scenes, and hope I have a "Grader's eye" for what is important and correct in images. Our goal is to match a professional grader for every scene, and every frame (if any grader actually would even consider grading every frame), of the movie.
> 
> I realize people want to compare, but I think it is important that before anyone publishes comparisons that they understand what is important in video quality analysis, and how the image should be rendered. I don't mean to cause offense, but people read the conclusion, and even though it is wrong, go with it.
> 
> No question the Pro wins this round hands down. Not saying bad things about MadVR. Just that the Pro remains the best video processor available and it shows when one knows what to look for.


Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim, the actual image is by no means crushing any blacks , it just comes out like this with the phone camera since its a little brighter and more contrasty , but which one is closer to the original grading i have no idea, i m no expert.
Didnt mean any harm though, just a hint of comparison for people who'd like to know.


----------



## Kris Deering

tnaik4 said:


> It was 3am my time when it was released hahah, i loaded it up and tested it till 5am.
> Its pretty nice!! The picture now is brighter while looking better at the same time. Great job indeed for the lumagen team.
> I did leave all the default settings but just preferred to use transition 8 instead of 7, will test it further .
> The only place where lumagen can improve the DTM is highlight revovery, when comparing back to back with madVR u can see a lot more highlights than the radiance in some scenes.
> It was very obvious in Avengers :Infinity War in the snow scene in the beginning, i will add the time stamp and couple of pics later.





tnaik4 said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim, the actual image is by no means crushing any blacks , it just comes out like this with the phone camera since its a little brighter and more contrasty , but which one is closer to the original grading i have no idea, i m no expert.
> Didnt mean any harm though, just a hint of comparison for people who'd like to know.


Sorry about the misunderstanding earlier, I didn't key on on you mentioning TRANSITION specifically, but I agree with Jim, leave it at default. While it may look better sometimes with with the other number, it will probably cause harm more often than not. This is why I suggest people change their menu mode to USER MODE and just use the adjustments in there rather than fart around with the expanded settings in expert, which few understand and tinkering can do more harm than good.

Thanks for the comparison pictures, but I agree they are not of much use. It is nearly impossible to take pictures of something high contrast for comparison like that. You don't know what the camera did to the image or how it should look in comparison. I learned this the hard way with that recent YouTube video that TVS Pros did when I was in Salt Lake. To say that the video doesn't do the comparison of the two projectors justice is an absolute understatement. Video didn't look nearly as close in person. 

I've said it countless times already, I'm excited to see what MadVR brings to the table and how their tone mapping compares. I have no doubt at all that it will be fantastic given all the hard work Madshi has put into it along with the members helping him here through the forum. I haven't seen HSTM yet but from the sounds of it (from the boards) it reminds me a lot of the process that Darbee relies upon (increasing local contrast by increasing/decreasing whites/blacks in areas they co-exist). This would definitely provide an increase in perceived contrast and highlights. But I also look at tone mapping as not a way to simulate HDR (it shouldn't be simulated, you are never going to get a true 1000 nit or any other nit highlight out of your peak white) but to do an on-the-fly re-grading to your actual peak nit level. This is (IMHO) the true intent of good tone mapping, not to make it a simulation of something it isn't. Just like I don't like fake frames or many other "image enhancements". The results of the Radiance provide fantastic results with even the most difficult material and the balance of the tone map looks fantastic and in line with what I see from true HDR displays but without the overall light output. This is also what other industry professionals are seeing including people comparing studio grades IN THE STUDIO to the Radiance output. Stacey Spears even came to my house to look at his UHD Benchmark montage with the Radiance and my projector and commented on how the combination was doing a better job with a lot of the more difficult material than even the best flat panels he's used. 

I have no doubt that MadVR brings exceptional results and when compared side by side with the Radiance there will be pros and cons to both. I can't wait for them to enter the market fully so we have choices as consumers and each brand hopefully puts pressure on the other to continue to innovate and improve performance. I also extend a welcome to anyone in the Seattle area with a properly setup MadVR rig to bring it by to do comparisons directly with the Radiance Pro I have here in my system!


----------



## tnaik4

that was a great read kriss about what is the intention of DTM , i agree we as consumer are the winner here , i have both and i cant wait to see what improvement will the future bring.


----------



## zombie10k

tnaik4 said:


> Kris this the scene i m talking about , its phone pics so not the best quality , this is with default settings and dpad 1 , the highlights are there but not as visible as with madVR , when u see it as whole it makes a very noticeable difference.
> 
> dont get me wrong i m already in love with my radiance pro after 2 weeks with it, it is amazing and essential in any system in my opinion, but since i can compare both madVR and the radiance pro i m trying to give some feedback of what can be improved.
> 
> i can show different scenes too but i m not sure if that is the thread to post it in as i dont want to annoy anyone with out of topic posts.
> 
> also if there is any setting i m missing plz let me know.


I just checked this scene with MadVR, it doesn't look anything like your screenshot. I see full detail on Cull Obsidian's armor in my setup and in the mountains as well. 

This is one of the risks of posting camera phone screenshots, they usually misrepresent what is being seen in person.


----------



## Craig Peer

zombie10k said:


> I just checked this scene with MadVR, it doesn't look anything like your screenshot. I see full detail on Cull Obsidian's armor in my setup and in the mountains as well.
> 
> This is one of the risks of posting camera phone screenshots, they usually misrepresent what is being seen in person.


I bought a Canon G7X MKII specifically to take screen shots. It was $700.00 when I bought it, and it can still be difficult to take screen shots that represent what I see in person. Phone camera - forget about it.


----------



## tnaik4

zombie10k said:


> I just checked this scene with MadVR, it doesn't look anything like your screenshot. I see full detail on Cull Obsidian's armor in my setup and in the mountains as well.
> 
> This is one of the risks of posting camera phone screenshots, they usually misrepresent what is being seen in person.


yes exactly , i have said it multiple times that it is not crushing details in person, its just the camera , i only posted it to show if at all possible the improved highlights , i guess i shouldnt have lol


----------



## Kris Deering

Here is a comparison of that frame (roughly) between my JVC/Radiance Pro (Image 1) and the Dolby Vision grade on my OLED (needs recalibration, hence the slightly blue hue). 



















You can see the contrast is not nearly as extreme as your pic shows (looks identical in person between my Radiance and the OLED DV transfer. I can make it look more "contrasty" by adjusting the gamma via the Lumagen, but it just looks exaggerated and not as intended. These images were taken using the auto mode of my iPhone 11 Pro. No touch up, just loaded to computer and then my website so I could link them directly.


----------



## jrp

tnaik4 said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim, the actual image is by no means crushing any blacks , it just comes out like this with the phone camera since its a little brighter and more contrasty , but which one is closer to the original grading i have no idea, i m no expert.
> Didn't mean any harm though, just a hint of comparison for people who'd like to know.


[EDIT] I posted the following before seeing Kris' post right above this one. However, Kris' photos show an excellent match between the Pro DTM and the Dolby Vision grade on the OLED.

===

I would say that if the detail does not show on your camera it is too dark. Sit at viewing distance. Do you see the black area detail and the creature detail with MadVR? I would ask "as it should be" but hard to know other than it should be clearly visible detail and not barely discernible detail as I expect it is on MadVR.

I can also say I have been on a glacier with a view similar to the image, and the Radiance Pro is in my opinion is closer to reality in its rendering. Of course I was not on that mountain on that day, and so not a perfect comparison.

Also we don't know if the Pro, or MadVR, is set up correctly. Setup can affect the results as well.


----------



## Karl Maga

I just ordered a Radiance Pro 4242 on the 19th and I’m obviously looking forward to it’s presence in my video chain. I covet it’s peerless image quality and it’s remediation of some minor but annoying idiosyncrasies associated with a projector and various sources. 

There really isn’t anything like it on the market, and it’s usability is quite refined. Comparisons to a technology that necessitates ripping discs isn’t much of a comparison outside of image processing. 

But I’m most interested in image processing of *sources that are most commonly used*. Streaming and cable are prolific, followed by spinning discs. A Radiance Pro seamlessly and easily enhances the enjoyment of all of these, and more. * These are* NOT small *differentiators*.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> I haven't seen HSTM yet but from the sounds of it (from the boards) it reminds me a lot of _the process that Darbee relies upon _(increasing local contrast by increasing/decreasing whites/blacks in areas they co-exist). This would definitely provide an increase in perceived contrast and highlights. But I also look at tone mapping as not a way to simulate HDR (it shouldn't be simulated, you are never going to get a true 1000 nit or any other nit highlight out of your peak white) but to do an on-the-fly re-grading to your _actual peak nit level_. This is (IMHO) the true intent of good tone mapping, not to make it a simulation of something it isn't. Just like I don't like fake frames or many other "image enhancements".


Kris, I have 2 questions which were stimulated from your recent post: 
1. Do you ever employ Darbee when you watch video through your Lumagen? If so, for what native resolutions and at what settings?

2. If optimal HDR tone mapping is related to "actual peak nit level", would it be beneficial for there to be a Lumagen menu into which the user could enter that nits value, if known (otherwise general default settings as is found with the Panasonic UHD players)? Thanks!


----------



## SJHT

Karl Maga said:


> I just ordered a Radiance Pro 4242 on the 19th and I’m obviously looking forward to it’s presence in my video chain. I covet it’s peerless image quality and it’s remediation of some minor but annoying idiosyncrasies associated with a projector and various sources.
> 
> There really isn’t anything like it on the market, and it’s usability is quite refined. Comparisons to a technology that necessitates ripping discs isn’t much of a comparison outside of image processing.
> 
> But I’m most interested in image processing of *sources that are most commonly used*. Streaming and cable are prolific, followed by spinning discs. A Radiance Pro seamlessly and easily enhances the enjoyment of all of these, and more. * These are* NOT small *differentiators*.


To me that’s the advantage of how the Lumagen deals with all HDMI sources. It’s just not something to deal with one in and one output prior to going to your display to enhance 4K HDR. It deals with all the source issues. Thank goodness I don’t rely on AVP which would be a nightmare for me. My AVP only has to be great at audio processing and not video. The folks at Lumagen partner with Kaleidescape and also test other sources to make sure they work and will help you solve issues you have. Amazing support. SJ


----------



## tnaik4

jrp said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim, the actual image is by no means crushing any blacks , it just comes out like this with the phone camera since its a little brighter and more contrasty , but which one is closer to the original grading i have no idea, i m no expert.
> Didn't mean any harm though, just a hint of comparison for people who'd like to know.
> 
> 
> 
> [EDIT] I posted the following before seeing Kris' post right above this one. However, Kris' photos show an excellent match between the Pro DTM and the Dolby Vision grade on the OLED.
> 
> ===
> 
> I would say that if the detail does not show on your camera it is too dark. Sit at viewing distance. Do you see the black area detail and the creature detail with MadVR? I would ask "as it should be" but hard to know other than it should be clearly visible detail and not barely discernible detail as I expect it is on MadVR.
> 
> I can also say I have been on a glacier with a view similar to the image, and the Radiance Pro is in my opinion is closer to reality in its rendering. Of course I was not on that mountain on that day, and so not a perfect comparison.
> 
> Also we don't know if the Pro, or MadVR, is set up correctly. Setup can affect the results as well.
Click to expand...

Jim when u say properly setup , is there anything else that i should setup in the radiance pro for best picture quality ?

Here is what i use:
I m using default HDR settings with DPAD at 1, and max light and 300 ( my pj is at 65nits ).
I m using input 422 12bit and output the same.
I m also using a rec709 3dlut calibration and inputing HDR2020 and output rec709 with convertion to ON.
Anyrhing else i m missing to setup the Radiance pro properly?


----------



## audioguy

tnaik4 said:


> Jim when u say properly setup , is there anything else that i should setup in the radiance pro for best picture quality ?
> 
> Here is what i use:
> I m using default HDR settings with DPAD at 1, and max light and 300 ( my pj is at 65nits ).
> I m using input 422 12bit and output the same.
> I m also using a rec709 3dlut calibration and inputing HDR2020 and output rec709 with convertion to ON.
> Anyrhing else i m missing to setup the Radiance pro properly?



I'm not Jim nor do I know much about video in general nor the Lumagen specifically. I think he may be referring to the full calibration of the PJ/Lumagen as part of the "properly setup" comment.


----------



## jh901

Reality Creation and Darbee are tools that enable the user to customize a preferred look, right? Lumagen and MadVR are generally used for creating ever better fidelity to the source. It's one thing to like fake video processing, such as soap opera look or sharpening (or, ugh, NR), and another to believe that it's better.

With that said, I'm hoping for respondents here to provide perspective here and there as necessary. There's a chance that comparisons between the new Envy and the new Radiance f/w will involve the nuances of how the source is intended to look. Otherwise, perhaps one will be flat out better than the other at HDR tone mapping or handling of 1080P.


----------



## tnaik4

audioguy said:


> tnaik4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jim when u say properly setup , is there anything else that i should setup in the radiance pro for best picture quality ?
> 
> Here is what i use:
> I m using default HDR settings with DPAD at 1, and max light and 300 ( my pj is at 65nits ).
> I m using input 422 12bit and output the same.
> I m also using a rec709 3dlut calibration and inputing HDR2020 and output rec709 with convertion to ON.
> Anyrhing else i m missing to setup the Radiance pro properly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jim nor do I know much about video in general nor the Lumagen specifically. I think he may be referring to the full calibration of the PJ/Lumagen as part of the "properly setup" comment.
Click to expand...

I m trying to know since i m new to Lumagen , ive had it for 2 weeks but i think now i know all i should about DTM and calibration, but maybe i missed something.
And i already have it calibrated with C6 HDR 2000 / 1dlut-3dlut , so i m all set i guess.


----------



## audioguy

jh901 said:


> With that said, I'm hoping for respondents here to provide perspective here and there as necessary. There's a chance that comparisons between the new Envy and the new Radiance f/w will involve the nuances of how the source is intended to look. Otherwise, perhaps one will be flat out better than the other at HDR tone mapping or handling of 1080P.


In my opinion and in my experience, for any comparison to be truly valid (audio or video), it must be conducted "blind" and each of the two units need to be set up by an expert on that unit. Like it or not and believe it or not, "expectation bias" is real!

And given the above I would highly doubt that "one will be flat out better than the other". While it is likely each will have their individual strengths, I would be doubtful of a downright winner.

That said, I will repeat myself yet again. MadVR is most likely an excellent technology. But packaging that technology into a "box" with full documentation, supported distribution channels, always available and timely customer support with continual product enhancement and do this OVER THE LONG RUN, is a completely different matter. Only time will tell. 

At this point, and cost notwithstanding, I will continue to support Lumagen even if MadVR were a tad better in some respects. The fact that Lumagen has been around for a very long time, has great products and incredible support is really critical to me. If sometime in the future (5 years?) things are gong well for them, I might feel differently. It gets old buying great technology only to have them go belly up a few years later. 

I really, really do wish madVR great success. Competition is great for the consumer and, at the moment, Lumagen really has none (which, interestingly enough, has not slowed down their chase to "perfection"). Yet one more reason I really like that company.


----------



## sjschaff

jh901 said:


> Reality Creation and Darbee are tools that enable the user to customize a preferred look, right? Lumagen and MadVR are generally used for creating ever better fidelity to the source. It's one thing to like fake video processing, such as soap opera look or sharpening (or, ugh, NR), and another to believe that it's better.
> 
> With that said, I'm hoping for respondents here to provide perspective here and there as necessary. There's a chance that comparisons between the new Envy and the new Radiance f/w will involve the nuances of how the source is intended to look. Otherwise, perhaps one will be flat out better than the other at HDR tone mapping or handling of 1080P.



As I recall, from many years ago reading the technical papers re: Darbee, the intent is to mimic, from a two dimensional image, what the human eye sees in a three dimensional world. It's a combination of depth of field and, given we have two eyes, with our brain getting a parallax image, there's a displacement which exists to differing degrees based on where we look and how far away an object is in our field of view. The algorithms developed and deployed by Darbee are an attempt to "fake" this for us when viewing a non-3D sourced image and then using 3d glasses to view it, all within a two dimensional projection. I recall that with some sources, like cartoons, you can push the "Darbee effect" to a greater degree and fully accept the result. I've yet to play around with Darbee while watching "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". But I suspect that would be a telling means for setting it up - call it a Darbee "test pattern" of sorts.


----------



## cappy1

audioguy said:


> In my opinion and in my experience, for any comparison to be truly valid (audio or video), it must be conducted "blind" and each of the two units need to be set up by an expert on that unit. Like it or not and believe it or not, "expectation bias" is real!



Well, even double-blind testing can be misleading, depending on the experience and knowledge of the individuals tested. Collective data from randomly chosen subjects might favor an image with more “pop” and crushed blacks as opposed to an image rendered correctly.


----------



## docrog

@Krisdeering Here's an absolutely gushing review of the Darblet (the initial stand alone device from Darbee) from 2012 penned in "Sound and Vision" by none other than our highly esteemed contributor: Kris Deering. Do you still feel the same about Darbee processing as currently implemented by Lumagen 7 years later, Kris????

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/darbee-visual-presence-darblet-video-enhancer


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> @Krisdeering Here's an absolutely gushing review of the Darblet (the initial stand alone device from Darbee) from 2012 penned in "Sound and Vision" by none other than our highly esteemed contributor: Kris Deering. Do you still feel the same about Darbee processing as currently implemented by Lumagen 7 years later, Kris????
> 
> https://www.soundandvision.com/content/darbee-visual-presence-darblet-video-enhancer


The Darbee is a great tool for giving a little bit more pop to a HD image. It performs better than most sharpening tools out there but care must be taken to ensure it is not used too aggressively. Lumagen defaults to a setting of 40, which is a bit hot IMHO. I would prefer a default of 35 at the most but actually more like 30. I would also prefer that it default to OFF so that customers can chose to have it on or off by default. 

When I reviewed the Darbee we had vastly different displays and content than we do now. I typically don't use it myself, but I have zero issue with those that still enjoy what it brings to the image. As I tell all my customers, image enhancements are a "season to taste" sort of thing. At the end of the day it is their system and they should enjoy it the way they want to, regardless of what the forums and others say. If that means Darbee, RC or any other "enhancement", go for it. It never hurts to turn it on and experiment with some content that you may feel is lacking in detail and decide for yourself.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Kris, I have 2 questions which were stimulated from your recent post:
> 1. Do you ever employ Darbee when you watch video through your Lumagen? If so, for what native resolutions and at what settings?
> 
> 2. If optimal HDR tone mapping is related to "actual peak nit level", would it be beneficial for there to be a Lumagen menu into which the user could enter that nits value, if known (otherwise general default settings as is found with the Panasonic UHD players)? Thanks!


1. I have in the past but don't presently. 
2. The Lumagen does have this, your dealer should be able to help you with this and any other setup concerns. I typically setup all of this for my customers before the Lumagen even ships to them for plug and play out of the box functionality.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> The Darbee is a great tool for giving a little bit more pop to a HD image. It performs better than most sharpening tools out there but care must be taken to ensure it is not used too aggressively. Lumagen defaults to a setting of 40, which is a bit hot IMHO. I would prefer a default of 35 at the most but actually more like 30. I would also prefer that it default to OFF so that customers can chose to have it on or off by default.
> 
> When I reviewed the Darbee we had vastly different displays and content than we do now. I typically don't use it myself, but I have zero issue with those that still enjoy what it brings to the image. As I tell all my customers, image enhancements are a "season to taste" sort of thing. At the end of the day it is their system and they should enjoy it the way they want to, regardless of what the forums and others say. If that means Darbee, RC or any other "enhancement", go for it. It never hurts to turn it on and experiment with some content that you may feel is lacking in detail and decide for yourself.


Thanks, Kris. Has Darbee technology changed since the initial offerings in 2012 or has the technology remained static? I have an Oppo 103D; would it be better to enable the Oppo's Darbee (for 2D/3D1080 and upscaling 480i DVD content) and turn it OFF in the Lumagen *or* turn it OFF in the Oppo and enable it in the Lumagen?


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks, Kris. Has Darbee technology changed since the initial offerings in 2012 or has the technology remained static? I have an Oppo 103D; would it be better to enable the Oppo's Darbee (for 2D/3D1080 and upscaling 480i DVD content) and turn it OFF in the Lumagen *or* turn it OFF in the Oppo and enable it in the Lumagen?


Nothing has changed. There is no benefit to using one vs the other unless you want to use Darbee for other sources feeding the Lumagen that are not your Oppo.


----------



## Dirk44

I really like Darbee in times it hit market, but 2020 in knocking not 2012 sorry.
The great Darbee algo works only with a 1080p Signal, but this thread is about the last generation of Lumagen, wich build for 2160p Signals.

So please, lets get back to the new update of DTM,thank you Lumagen for work you put in this update again, to let us enjoy even more the UHD and 4k streams. 
have a merry X was everybody


----------



## docrog

Dirk44 said:


> I really like Darbee in times it hit market, but 2020 in knocking not 2012 sorry. The great Darbee algo works only with a 1080p Signal, but this thread is about the last generation of Lumagen, which build for 2160p Signals. So please, lets get back to the new update of DTM,thank you Lumagen for work you put in this update again, to let us enjoy even more the UHD and 4k streams. have a merry X was everybody


I have a large amount of legacy (DVD & HD discs) content as well as 1080i cable TV, all of which will be going through the Lumagen for upscaling to 4K. Lumagen's superior upscaling was among the important considerations for deciding to purchase the 4240. If Lumagen felt that Darbee was insignificant in 2019 they probably would not continue pay to license it or include it in the Radiance Pro (enabled at default). Darbee is an important consideration for more than a few Lumagen users, so exploring how best to make use of that processing is certainly well within the reasons for posting to this thread. I'm equally interested in DTM and have posted on that subject as well. Discussing the synergy between Lumagen and Darbee in this thread is not the same as digressing into fine wines, high end sports cars or urinary catheters (as has occurred elsewhere in these forums)......


----------



## Eventidal

Dirk44 said:


> I really like Darbee in times it hit market, but 2020 in knocking not 2012 sorry.
> The great Darbee algo works only with a 1080p Signal, but this thread is about the last generation of Lumagen, wich build for 2160p Signals.
> 
> So please, lets get back to the new update of DTM,thank you Lumagen for work you put in this update again, to let us enjoy even more the UHD and 4k streams.
> have a merry X was everybody


What are you trying to say? That you stopped watching Blu Rays on your Radiance?  Let alone 3D? 

Merry x- mas!


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Nothing has changed. There is no benefit to using one vs the other unless you want to use Darbee for other sources feeding the Lumagen that are not your Oppo.


Thanks for that information, Kris. I'll choose to enable Darbee in the 4240, as *all* of my video sources are switched in the AVR. That will allow me to disable Darbee in the Oppo and output in direct source mode for DVD & 2D/3D HD content and I can send the 1080i TiVO in native mode to the AVR, rather than continuing to route it through the Oppo's HDMI input in order to gain Darbee processing.


----------



## Lasalle

We had a chance to setup the new DTM update. @Alan Gouger was doing the setup. He was able to compare the update to MADVR in his home lab. His initial comment was Lumagen significantly closed the gap on this update. The impact on the Sim2 Duo Plus was stunning, nice job Jim and Kris.


----------



## jh901

Eventidal said:


> What are you trying to say? That you stopped watching Blu Rays on your Radiance?


Those who feel compelled to spice up their image with motion control, sharpening, NR, and the like seem to want to conflate artificial processing with advances in algos that deliver ever better 1080P for 4K displays. This thread will be unproductive if the likes of Darbee or Sony RC take over the discussion. Advances in legit scaling and, separately, in tone mapping are extremely exciting and relevant. Hopefully, those who appreciate source fidelity won't be crowded out with "noise".


----------



## Ash Sharma

Lasalle said:


> We had a chance to setup the new DTM update. @Alan Gouger was doing the setup. He was able to compare the update to MADVR in his home lab. His initial comment was Lumagen significantly closed the gap on this update. The impact on the Sim2 Duo Plus was stunning, nice job Jim and Kris.


I watched Expanse Season 1 Episode 10 - half on my Sony5000/Lumagen/DCR Calibrated by Kris and caught the rest on my 65 inch Samsung QLED (Uncalibrated) and was shocked that my Sony 5000 threw a vastly better picture and due to the scale of the screen 14 foot wide - the show was hugely more engrossing than the 65 inch Diagonal QLED.
Even when comparing the picture the Sony 5000 was way better although it is calibrated to 110 Nits (with DTM) and the QLED is rated to 4000 nits (I think).


----------



## docrog

jh901 said:


> Those who feel compelled to spice up their image with motion control, sharpening, NR, and the like seem to want to conflate artificial processing with advances in algos that deliver ever better 1080P for 4K displays. This thread will be unproductive if the likes of Darbee or Sony RC take over the discussion. Advances in legit scaling and, separately, in tone mapping are extremely exciting and relevant. Hopefully, those who appreciate source fidelity won't be crowded out with "noise".


Sony RC may be considered "noise" as it's *not* a component of the Radiance Pro (what this thread is supposedly dedicated to). Darbee processing *is* a component of the Radiance Pro, hence the relevance for owners in discovering how best to apply it. BTW, it seems that your Lumagen is missing from your otherwise highly detailed signature of components; perhaps you might consider updating it.


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> BTW, it seems that your Lumagen is missing from your otherwise highly detailed signature of components; perhaps you might consider updating it.


Or he doesn't actually own one!!


----------



## Kris Deering

Lasalle said:


> We had a chance to setup the new DTM update. @Alan Gouger was doing the setup. He was able to compare the update to MADVR in his home lab. His initial comment was Lumagen significantly closed the gap on this update. The impact on the Sim2 Duo Plus was stunning, nice job Jim and Kris.


Good to hear. Have Alan reach out if he wants any help or has questions about the new update.


----------



## Eventidal

jh901 said:


> This thread will be unproductive if the likes of Darbee or Sony RC take over the discussion.


This is a VERY legit discussion since Darbee is part of the Lumagen and this thread is not just built entirely around tone mapping, sorry for the news!


----------



## audioguy

jh901 said:


> Those who feel compelled to spice up their image with motion control, sharpening, NR, and the like seem to want to conflate artificial processing with advances in algos that deliver ever better 1080P for 4K displays.



If I've learned anything after being in this business for a very long time, user "preference" ALWAYS comes into play on product choices - and product use. Otherwise, there would be one very popular speaker brand one very popular projector. That some folks happen to like the resultant image after applying Darbee (or anything else for that matter), is a perfectly reasonable position to take. That you clearly don't like it is OK as well - but denigrating the position of those who happen to have a different view is really not necessary.


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> If I've learned anything after being in this business for a very long time, user "preference" ALWAYS comes into play on product choices - and product use. Otherwise, there would be one very popular speaker brand one very popular projector. That some folks happen to like the resultant image after applying Darbee (or anything else for that matter), is a perfectly reasonable position to take. That you clearly don't like it is OK as well - but denigrating the position of those who happen to have a different view is really not necessary.


I completely agree with your statement. It was important for me to know whether Darbee processing had changed in the 7+ years since I purchased my Oppo 103D (Kris Deering responded that it hadn't) as there's a fine line between appealing and appalling whenever digital image processing is applied to legacy content. As I wrote previously, Lumagen presumably accepts the fact that Darbee processing can be a valid component for their products, otherwise I believe that Darbee would would not have been included in the Radiance Pro. BTW, you'll remember that this is not the first time that same poster has felt compelled to deliver an unsolicited and denigrating "lecture" in this thread (for example, post 6145).


----------



## Yoxxy

Is the BETA 1204 posted 1221 the new firmware that changes HDR or are we still waiting on that?

Thanks.


----------



## A7mad78

Yoxxy said:


> Is the BETA 1204 posted 1221 the new firmware that changes HDR or are we still waiting on that?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.




Yes it’s 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> Unfortunately the latest firmware is not stable here. It worked some time and then the Lumagen crashed and would not restart. A hard power off/on restart had it turn itself off again quickly.
> To be sure I reloaded the new firmware with force option but it did not help. I had to revert back
> to the previous firmware. This was with a JVC NX7 as display.


I've watched a bit with the new firmware and not seen any issues. I wonder if there is something about your config causing issues. Did you try the bootloader firmware installation (power off at mains, power on at mains and within a couple of seconds start firmware download process).

Hope you get sorted.


----------



## mhafner

bobof said:


> I've watched a bit with the new firmware and not seen any issues. I wonder if there is something about your config causing issues. Did you try the bootloader firmware installation (power off at mains, power on at mains and within a couple of seconds start firmware download process).
> Hope you get sorted.


Yes, I did.
Lumagen will send me a test version later.


----------



## docrog

Anyone having issues with this thread not being up to date?


----------



## audioguy

Test post


----------



## tnaik4

docrog said:


> Anyone having issues with this thread not being up to date?


Yes if i open it from my desktop its not up to date, but from my phone it is, weird.


----------



## tnaik4

Jim or Kris any reason why the radiance pro support up to 17^3 3DLUT and not 21^3 ? is it a limitation or just a choice made that 17^3 is enough?


----------



## Eventidal

tnaik4 said:


> Yes if i open it from my desktop its not up to date, but from my phone it is, weird.


I had to log out and log back in again. Very strange... Working for now!


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> Anyone having issues with this thread not being up to date?


Yes for a day and a half, it would not show me the new posts. I could see that new posts were added, because name of last post kept changing, but I could not see the posts.


----------



## Kris Deering

tnaik4 said:


> Jim or Kris any reason why the radiance pro support up to 17^3 3DLUT and not 21^3 ? is it a limitation or just a choice made that 17^3 is enough?


Jim would have to answer but I imagine it is a memory limit. Finding 4,913 color points not enough compared to the typical 6 not enough? 😂


----------



## tnaik4

Kris Deering said:


> Jim would have to answer but I imagine it is a memory limit. Finding 4,913 color points not enough compared to the typical 6 not enough? 😂


4,913 is definitely enough, but with problematic displays like the LK970 i have, when i use the 9261 LUT into madvr it gives better color results accross the board. on the other hand with my jvc rs440 i can get excellent results with a 2000LUT or even less.

what is interesting and i m not sure if u ever encountered that issue with ur calibration , when i do a 1DLUT it just looks perfect but as soon as i apply the 3Dlut it messes the 1dlut significantly, ive been told that the radiance proccess the 3dlut before the 1dlut and lightspace expect the opposite. any tips on how to fix that ?


----------



## darksets

jh901 said:


> Those who feel compelled to spice up their image with motion control, sharpening, NR, and the like seem to want to conflate artificial processing with advances in algos that deliver ever better 1080P for 4K displays. This thread will be unproductive if the likes of Darbee or Sony RC take over the discussion. Advances in legit scaling and, separately, in tone mapping are extremely exciting and relevant. Hopefully, those who appreciate source fidelity won't be crowded out with "noise".



Thank you for injecting some sanity. The artificial processing crowd were about to establish their distorted view as the normal.


----------



## Eventidal

darksets said:


> Thank you for injecting some sanity. The artificial processing crowd were about to establish their distorted view as the normal.


A few mentions of Darbee and the likes of you go nuts? Again: The Darbee is part of the Lumagen for very good reason. If you like it or not. Just like motion flow is part of your projector, noise reduction, contrast enhancers and so on. 

You might want to open a tone mapping thread instead?


----------



## hellride

darksets said:


> Thank you for injecting some sanity. The artificial processing crowd were about to establish their distorted view as the normal.


Seriously?


----------



## baseball0618

I have been fiddling with the Dpad setting and I have found that I prefer a setting of 1 over my previous setting of 3. Can someone kindly tell me the correct way to make this change and copy it to all of my inputs without me screwing up my entire calibration?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## stefanop

Just downloaded, installed and reset to default.
I own a Sony 5000, the image was very plasma-like and now it's plasma-like with a slight touch of oled.
Just a question: if I change Display Max Light and then alter Low Display Ratio I can go down to 75 max. Is it a mandatory limit? ...Low Display Ratio has to ramp up to high values in order to reach 75 in the value of Effective dispay Max Light (L)


----------



## SJHT

For Lumagen Pro and A4KTV owners... I am using source output of 4K SDR with all matching on. Typically works well. However, noticed when watching Netflix Dolby Vision titles, the source shows an output of 4K HDR? SJ


----------



## stefanop

Bram Stoker's Dracula is now outstanding with deep inky reds.


----------



## Mike Garrett

baseball0618 said:


> I have been fiddling with the Dpad setting and I have found that I prefer a setting of 1 over my previous setting of 3. Can someone kindly tell me the correct way to make this change and copy it to all of my inputs without me screwing up my entire calibration?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


On each input with HDR source playing, use left arrow on Lumagen, then select dpad of 1.


----------



## baseball0618

Mike Garrett said:


> On each input with HDR source playing, use left arrow on Lumagen, then select dpad of 1.


There is a way to make a change to 1 input and then apply that to all. That's what I am trying to do. Thanks


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> For Lumagen Pro and A4KTV owners... I am using source output of 4K SDR with all matching on. Typically works well. However, noticed when watching Netflix Dolby Vision titles, the source shows an output of 4K HDR? SJ


The Lumagen EDID doesn't claim DV compatibility, so the AppleTV sees the HDR10 capability in the EDID and converts DV to HDR10 output, albeit often with noncompliant metadata which causes issues for the 18G inputs (audio glitches up to every 30 s on some content is the one remaining issue). 

It is arguably a bug (or at least a strange choice) that Apple decide to tell you the content is available in Dolby Vision when the display can't display it as DV. I guess at least it helps you realise the reason why you might have issues. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

tnaik4 said:


> what is interesting and i m not sure if u ever encountered that issue with ur calibration , when i do a 1DLUT it just looks perfect but as soon as i apply the 3Dlut it messes the 1dlut significantly, ive been told that the radiance proccess the 3dlut before the 1dlut and lightspace expect the opposite. any tips on how to fix that ?


An update to Lightspace a few months ago allows you to upload the 1D and 3D LUTs separately, or combined like before. So you can profile with nothing active, upload a 1D LUT, profile with the 1D active and finally upload the 3D only. I think the Radiance instructions on Light Illusion's website were updated, but it was described in the Lightspace thread in the Calibration subforum here if not.


----------



## SJHT

baseball0618 said:


> There is a way to make a change to 1 input and then apply that to all. That's what I am trying to do. Thanks



Just use the copy function in the input settings area. SJ


----------



## bobof

baseball0618 said:


> There is a way to make a change to 1 input and then apply that to all. That's what I am trying to do. Thanks


As @SJHT says, you can copy all the input settings in one go. There is another way for this particular setting though. Go Menu -> Input Setup -> Options -> HDR Setup -> DynamicCtrls, and edit DTM Pad in there. When you hit OK it will ask you which input / memory to apply to (you can just select All for both if that is appropriate).


----------



## sjschaff

baseball0618 said:


> There is a way to make a change to 1 input and then apply that to all. That's what I am trying to do. Thanks



This is on the Input side. Menu-Input-Options-HDR Mapping as I recall. This is after you've already enabled HDR Mapping in CMS1. I don't know how much the current firmware differs from what is presented in the latest online manual at the Lumagen support page, however.


----------



## Bobkbusch

New owner of a Radiance 4242 Pro. Reading all I can (including the manual and about a third of the way through this entire thread) and the learning curve is a bit steep for me, but I'm enjoying the process.

I have my Radiance in a rack outside my theater and I'm currently using an IR extender to access it, via the port on the rear, using the included Radiance remote. 

I also have it set up in my Harmony remote app, and need to use the front IR sensor window to power up/stby when powering up my theater with the Harmony. If I unplug the IR extender, from the rear of the Radiance, the front sensor works fine, but the front sensor doesn't work if something is plugged in to the rear "IR In" port.

Is there any way to keep the front IR sensor window active even when there is also an IR cable plugged in to the "IR In" port on the back? 

I suppose I will eventually just use the Harmony remote for everything, but for now, it would be easier to do all the setup/tweaking with the include remote and just use the Harmony for the power up/stby sequence.


----------



## Kerlucun

I noticed that my JVC X7900 does not indicate quantification when my Lumagen PRO comes out in 12 bits when it is correct in 8 bits, it is the same on my Denon AV amp.
However, if I use my Vertex2 to pass the signal from 8 to 12 bits the JVC and the Denon indicates that the input is in 12 bits.
Is any information missing from the Lumagen?


----------



## jrp

Bobkbusch said:


> New owner of a Radiance 4242 Pro. Reading all I can (including the manual and about a third of the way through this entire thread) and the learning curve is a bit steep for me, but I'm enjoying the process.
> 
> I have my Radiance in a rack outside my theater and I'm currently using an IR extender to access it, via the port on the rear, using the included Radiance remote.
> 
> I also have it set up in my Harmony remote app, and need to use the front IR sensor window to power up/stby when powering up my theater with the Harmony. If I unplug the IR extender, from the rear of the Radiance, the front sensor works fine, but the front sensor doesn't work if something is plugged in to the rear "IR In" port.
> 
> Is there any way to keep the front IR sensor window active even when there is also an IR cable plugged in to the "IR In" port on the back? ...


Plugging a plug into the Radiance Pro back IR control wired input disables the front side IR receiver. There is not way to enable both.

I recommend, as an example, for my family room I use a Xantech repeater with the elite IR blaster by it to overcome this. The Xantech output is used as the wired IR input on the Pro, the wired input on a Denon receiver, and to drive IR bugs on other equipment. The Elite IR blaster sends IR commands out from my Elite remote for normal operation. The ELite's IR output drives the Xantech IR receiver, but I can also use my Radiance Pro IR remote (and other IR remotes) to do setup commands.


----------



## Ash Sharma

stefanop said:


> Bram Stoker's Dracula is now outstanding with deep inky reds.


Watch John Wick 3 Wow..
Remember DFO off - and I have DI to high in 4.8 firmware Sony


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> The Lumagen EDID doesn't claim DV compatibility, so the AppleTV sees the HDR10 capability in the EDID and converts DV to HDR10 output, albeit often with non-compliant metadata which causes issues for the 18G inputs (audio glitches up to every 30 s on some content is the one remaining issue).


 @jrp, is this ATV4K issue with compliance why you'd encouraged me to configure with a 9G (rather than 18G) output card? Since I prefer ATV4K for Amazon & Netflix streaming in HDR10 (JVC NX7), am I about to run into more issues like this if you build my unit with the 18G output card?


----------



## jrp

Kerlucun said:


> I noticed that my JVC X7900 does not indicate quantification when my Lumagen PRO comes out in 12 bits when it is correct in 8 bits, it is the same on my Denon AV amp.
> However, if I use my Vertex2 to pass the signal from 8 to 12 bits the JVC and the Denon indicates that the input is in 12 bits.
> Is any information missing from the Lumagen?


I assume you are using 4:2:2. The 4:2:2 format is always 12-bits per the HDMI spec. To report anything else is incorrect.

The 4:2:2 format predates "Deep Color." While deep-color formats can have a bit depth of 8, 10, 12, or 16, bits, there is no redefinition of 4:2:2 to use the deep-color bit depth. So, indicating 4:2:2 as anything other than 12-bits is, based on my reading of the HDMI specification, incorrect. I could not find anything in the HDMI spec that said the deep-color bit depth information applied to 4:2:2. I believe the AVR, projectors, or other components, are incorrectly using the HDMI deep-color bit depth which does not apply to 4:2:2 (to the best of my knowledge).

If someone knows that there is such information about 4:2:2 bit-depth in the HDMI spec, please point it out. There is a small chance I, and several other who read the spec looking for this, missed the information.


----------



## Kerlucun

jrp said:


> I assume you are using 4:2:2. The 4:2:2 format is always 12-bits per the HDMI spec. To report anything else is incorrect.
> 
> The 4:2:2 format predates "Deep Color." While deep-color formats can have a bit depth of 8, 10, 12, or 16, bits, there is no redefinition of 4:2:2 to use the deep-color bit depth. So, indicating 4:2:2 as anything other than 12-bits is, based on my reading of the HDMI specification, incorrect. I could not find anything in the HDMI spec that said the deep-color bit depth information applied to 4:2:2. I believe the AVR, projectors, or other components, are incorrectly using the HDMI deep-color bit depth which does not apply to 4:2:2 (to the best of my knowledge).
> 
> If someone knows that there is such information about 4:2:2 bit-depth in the HDMI spec, please point it out. There is a small chance I, and several other who read the spec looking for this, missed the information.



Thank you Jim for that clarification, I understand better and I will investigate what is happening with the other formats.


----------



## Bobkbusch

jrp said:


> Plugging a plug into the Radiance Pro back IR control wired input disables the front side IR receiver. There is not way to enable both.
> 
> I recommend, as an example, for my family room I use a Xantech repeater with the elite IR blaster by it to overcome this. The Xantech output is used as the wired IR input on the Pro, the wired input on a Denon receiver, and to drive IR bugs on other equipment. The Elite IR blaster sends IR commands out from my Elite remote for normal operation. The ELite's IR output drives the Xantech IR receiver, but I can also use my Radiance Pro IR remote (and other IR remotes) to do setup commands.


Thanks Jim! Changed my IR repeater setup to match yours and that works like a charm!


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> @jrp, is this ATV4K issue with compliance why you'd encouraged me to configure with a 9G (rather than 18G) output card? Since I prefer ATV4K for Amazon & Netflix streaming in HDR10 (JVC NX7), am I about to run into more issues like this if you build my unit with the 18G output card?


For the Radiance Pro the choice of output card has nothing at all to do with the choice of an input card(s). They are completely independent since the Pro always converts to 4:2:2 (and later in the pipeline RGB) for processing.

For Pro input cards, we recommend 18 GHz inputs for HDR sources since many sources require an 18 GHz connection before they will enable HDR.

For Pro output cards, for the 424X model I recommend 9 GHz output card for several reasons:
- Some AVRs and audio processor do not implement all the required audio interrupts, and so depend on the video changes to know when the audio changes. While bad practice we have no control over this. The 9 GHz output card allows the audio output (Output 1) to be audio or audio+video to overcome this AVR issue.

- The 9 GHz output has slower edge rates and I believe less EQ. This means the 9 GHz output card will have fewer HDMI cable related issues than the 18 GHz output card. Since, given the Pro's excellent dithering on its output, I see no difference for 4k60, even for HDR, between 18G 4:2:2 12-bit, and 9G 4:2:0 8-bit, I do not believe there is a quality reason to choose 18 GHz output card for the 424X models. Also since, for 4K24, both a 9G and a 18G cards run at 12-bit 4:2:2 there is zero reason for 18G cards for 24 Hertz movies.

For 444X models, I recommend one 18G output card plus one 9 GHz output card. This allows a 9 GHz output port for audio (optionally with audio and video), and the choice of using either a 9 GHz or a 18 GHz output, for video.

NOTE: I am seeing that new models of cables, projector inputs, and audio product inputs, are getting better able to actually work at 18 GHz for recent products. So, I can say that the video side of this issue is diminishing over time. In addition, on the audio side, I know of only one recently released product that needs both audio and video to have audio work. In addition we have done work to "kick" the audio processors when the Pro detects an audio change, so that (hopefully) they are sure to notice. So, if you are considering the Radiance Pro 4242, it is now very reasonable to go for an 18 GHz output card.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> For the Radiance Pro the choice of output card has nothing at all to do with the choice of an input card(s). They are completely independent since the Pro always converts to 4:2:2 (and later in the pipeline RGB) for processing.
> 
> For Pro input cards, we recommend 18 GHz inputs for HDR sources since many sources require an 18 GHz connection before they will enable HDR.
> 
> For Pro output cards, for the 424X model I recommend 9 GHz output card for several reasons:
> - Some AVRs and audio processor do not implement all the required audio interrupts, and so depend on the video changes to know when the audio changes. While bad practice we have no control over this. The 9 GHz output card allows the audio output (Output 1) to be audio or audio+video to overcome this AVR issue.
> 
> - The 9 GHz output has slower edge rates and I believe less EQ. This means the 9 GHz output card will have fewer HDMI cable related issues than the 18 GHz output card. Since, given the Pro's excellent dithering on its output, I see no difference for 4k60, even for HDR, between 18G 4:2:2 12-bit, and 9G 4:2:0 8-bit, I do not believe there is a quality reason to choose 18 GHz output card for the 424X models. Also since, for 4K24, both a 9G and a 18G cards run at 12-bit 4:2:2 there is zero reason for 18G cards for 24 Hertz movies.
> 
> For 444X models, I recommend one 18G output card plus one 9 GHz output card. This allows a 9 GHz output port for audio (optionally with audio and video), and the choice of using either a 9 GHz or a 18 GHz output, for video.
> 
> NOTE: I am seeing that new models of cables, projector inputs, and audio product inputs, are getting better able to actually work at 18 GHz for recent products. So, I can say that the video side of this issue is diminishing over time. In addition, on the audio side, I know of only one recently released product that needs both audio and video to have audio work. In addition we have done work to "kick" the audio processors when the Pro detects an audio change, so that (hopefully) they are sure to notice. So, if you are considering the Radiance Pro 4242, it is now very reasonable to go for an 18 GHz output card.


Thanks, Jim. Your response seems identical with your prior posts. I've opted for the 18G 4240 which will almost certainly be placed between the AVR & NX7, so there won't be any audio return from Lumagen. My Ruipro fiber-optic active 10m HDMI cable is performing flawlessly under demanding 18G bandwidth sources between my AVR (Yamaha RX-A3080) & NX7.


----------



## jh901

jrp said:


> NOTE: I am seeing that new models of cables, projector inputs, and audio product inputs, are getting better able to actually work at 18 GHz for recent products. So, I can say that the video side of this issue is diminishing over time. In addition, on the audio side, I know of only one recently released product that needs both audio and video to have audio work. In addition we have done work to "kick" the audio processors when the Pro detects an audio change, so that (hopefully) they are sure to notice. So, if you are considering the Radiance Pro 4242, it is now very reasonable to go for an 18 GHz output card.


Just to be clear, the 18GHz I/O would be the way to go for those sending only audio to a dedicated audio component (no video pass) and only video to the Radiance by using dual HDMI outputs of the source UHD player.

Appreciated!


----------



## jrp

A few comments on 1D and 3D LUT order and calibration. Don't want o be off-topic on a "calibration" post, but see a few questions related to Pro hardware.

The Radiance and Radiance Pro products have the 3D LUT before the 1D LUT. This is because when we were designing the 3D LUT we were working with Spectracal (Calman) and they requested that we move the 1D from before to after the 3D LUT. I initially had the 1D before the 3D because to me that seemed the best place to put it, but Calman wanted it after. Later, Steve of Light Illusions (Lightspace) said they prefer it before or having a 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT and a 1D LUT after the 3D LUT.

I use Lightspace mostly, but also use Calman from time to time.

Running a 3D LUT can perturb the gray-vector to some degree, but I do not think it should be by as much as I see that it does. I can start with a excellent 1D Gary-vector, and after the 3D LUT run the gray-vector is not so good. I have discussed this with Steve of Lightspace and they have added a 1D separate from 3D LUT mode. Still I don't see why the gray-vector should move as much as it does running the 3D LUT.

It seems to me the 3D LUT run could use the 17 points along the gray-vector to make the gray-vector come out excellent during the 3D LUT calibration (but I don't have to implement color calibration software so may be implementation details that prevent this).

We have discussed potentially adding an additional higher point count 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT in the Radiance Pro. However, at this point, because of DTM gate count and other planned features it is not clear if we can do this.

For now Lightspace is the only software that does a good job for Rec 2020 3D LUTs. However, I know that Portrait Displays (now owner of Calman) is working on new algorithms for 2020.

We choose 17x17x17 for the Radiance 21XX and Radiance Pro 3D LUT size for two reasons. First, it is not too large for our FPGA (rather important for us). Second reason is that it gives great performance for TVs and projectors with a reasonably linear response curve. Since most current name brand TVs, and projectors, have reasonably linear response curves this works out well. Professional calibrators consistently achieve excellent results on a variety of TVs and projectors using the Radiance Pro 17x17x17 3D LUT. 

A 21x21x21 3D LUT could give slightly better results, but I am not sure how much the difference would be visible to humans. If a TV/projector has a non-linear response, the larger 3D LUT may make a small but visible improvement. In any case there is not enough room in the current design for a 21x21x21 3D LUT.

Errors in gray-vector are the easiest to see. Errors in "memory colors" (a term I am borrowing from Lightspace which refers to colors known to the viewer like "Coke Red") are not as easy to see but are still important. Finally comes "non memory colors," which are colors not commonly associated with specific objects. For example one does not know if the color of the flower in a scene is correct or not since flower colors vary a lot. Larger (but not huge) errors in "non memory colors" do not make as much difference to human observers. So analysis of dE reports should focus first on the gray-vector, and then on "memory colors," with a look-see at "non memory colors."

So what are considered good targets? It used to be that a dE of 3 for the gray-vector was considered good enough. Now people want gray-vector dE's under 1. The following are my opinion and so not subject to debate, and of course you are welcome to have different targets.

I target gray-vector dE under 1, but do not get concerned if a few are in the 1.5 or even nearing 2.0 range. For the gray vector it is more important that the R, G, and B error curves be smooth. That is, for example, as Red goes from 0 to 100%, the errors should not oscillate between (these numbers are just examples) 1, -1, and back to 1. This gives a delta-dE (dE^2) of 2 even though no one reading is over 1. I prefer color errors form a fairly smooth curve, even if dE's go a bit above one. I would prefer dE's going from 1 to 2 and back to 1 since this is a dE^2 of 1. In addition, the colors should conform with each other as much as possible. For example, you would not want error for Red to go from 1, to -1, to 1, while Green goes from -1, to 1, to -1 for the same points. So I always look at the RGB graph rather than just the dEs.

For non-gray-vector memory-colors, I try for a dE of 2 or less, but am not too concerned with dE's of 4 for these.

For non-memory-colors, I try for a dE under 6 to 8, but I take what I can get since without a "color match" to reference I do not think people notice these larger errors in random non-memory colors.

I am not a color scientist, and these are my "can't see any color errors" suggestions. If a PhD Color Physicist told me I need to change my thoughts on this I would listen closely, meaning these are not cast in stone. Some prefer achieving smaller errors. However, I also believe that calibration is like pulling on control points using rubber bands. If you pull on the rubber bands too hard you may get better readings, and a worse picture. I call this breaking the rubber bands. Said targeting lower dEs than these may not get you a better picture.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> For Lumagen Pro and A4KTV owners... I am using source output of 4K SDR with all matching on. Typically works well. However, noticed when watching Netflix Dolby Vision titles, the source shows an output of 4K HDR? SJ


DV titles are converted to HDR10 with the AppleTV and a Radiance/Projector. You have to have a DV capable display to get DV output.



bobof said:


> The Lumagen EDID doesn't claim DV compatibility, so the AppleTV sees the HDR10 capability in the EDID and converts DV to HDR10 output, albeit often with noncompliant metadata which causes issues for the 18G inputs (audio glitches up to every 30 s on some content is the one remaining issue).
> 
> It is arguably a bug (or at least a strange choice) that Apple decide to tell you the content is available in Dolby Vision when the display can't display it as DV. I guess at least it helps you realise the reason why you might have issues.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


I don't know if Apple changed something with their output lately but I am not getting any audio drops with DV/Dolby Atmos titles anymore. I've watched quite a few over the holidays with nary a drop. I used to get them quite frequently. I am investigating this more this week.


----------



## Vinturbo

I installed the long awaited new firmware and I must say that it is a very powerful step forward. I have observed that occasionally the light of the scene varies in intensity. even if you remove adaptive hdr the problem remains. has happened to someone?


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks, Jim. Your response seems identical with your prior posts. I've opted for the 18G 4240 which will almost certainly be placed between the AVR & NX7, so there won't be any audio return from Lumagen. My Ruipro fiber-optic active 10m HDMI cable is performing flawlessly under demanding 18G bandwidth sources between my AVR (Yamaha RX-A3080) & NX7.


Just to put it out there, in my experience having a Lumagen between an AVR/pre-pro and a projector is typically not that great for overall performance and stability. I've had lots of clients that have tried it and most have had issues (I've even tried it between my AVM60, which doesn't have ANY video processing and my projector and it always creates issues that are a non-issue when I use the Radiance for switching). I HIGHLY encourage using the Radiance for the video switching. Yamaha receivers haven't impressed me with how they handle HDMI in terms of just leaving it completely alone when they pass it thru.



jrp said:


> A few comments on 1D and 3D LUT order and calibration. Don't want o be off-topic on a "calibration" post, but see a few questions related to Pro hardware.
> 
> The Radiance and Radiance Pro products have the 3D LUT before the 1D LUT. This is because when we were designing the 3D LUT we were working with Spectracal (Calman) and they requested that we move the 1D from before to after the 3D LUT. I initially had the 1D before the 3D because to me that seemed the best place to put it, but Calman wanted it after. Later, Steve of Light Illusions (Lightspace) said they prefer it before or having a 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT and a 1D LUT after the 3D LUT.
> 
> I use Lightspace mostly, but also use Calman from time to time.
> 
> Running a 3D LUT can perturb the gray-vector to some degree, but I do not think it should be by as much as I see that it does. I can start with a excellent 1D Gary-vector, and after the 3D LUT run the gray-vector is not so good. I have discussed this with Steve of Lightspace and they have added a 1D separate from 3D LUT mode. Still I don't see why the gray-vector should move as much as it does running the 3D LUT.
> 
> It seems to me the 3D LUT run could use the 17 points along the gray-vector to make the gray-vector come out excellent during the 3D LUT calibration (but I don't have to implement color calibration software so may be implementation details that prevent this).
> 
> We have discussed potentially adding an additional higher point count 1D LUT in front of the 3D LUT in the Radiance Pro. However, at this point, because of DTM gate count and other planned features it is not clear if we can do this.
> 
> For now Lightspace is the only software that does a good job for Rec 2020 3D LUTs. However, I know that Portrait Displays (now owner of Calman) is working on new algorithms for 2020.
> 
> We choose 17x17x17 for the Radiance 21XX and Radiance Pro 3D LUT size for two reasons. First, it is not too large for our FPGA (rather important for us). Second reason is that it gives great performance for TVs and projectors with a reasonably linear response curve. Since most current name brand TVs, and projectors, have reasonably linear response curves this works out well. Professional calibrators consistently achieve excellent results on a variety of TVs and projectors using the Radiance Pro 17x17x17 3D LUT.
> 
> A 21x21x21 3D LUT could give slightly better results, but I am not sure how much the difference would be visible to humans. If a TV/projector has a non-linear response, the larger 3D LUT may make a small but visible improvement. In any case there is not enough room in the current design for a 21x21x21 3D LUT.
> 
> Errors in gray-vector are the easiest to see. Errors in "memory colors" (a term I am borrowing from Lightspace which refers to colors known to the viewer like "Coke Red") are not as easy to see but are still important. Finally comes "non memory colors," which are colors not commonly associated with specific objects. For example one does not know if the color of the flower in a scene is correct or not since flower colors vary a lot. Larger (but not huge) errors in "non memory colors" do not make as much difference to human observers. So analysis of dE reports should focus first on the gray-vector, and then on "memory colors," with a look-see at "non memory colors."
> 
> So what are considered good targets? It used to be that a dE of 3 for the gray-vector was considered good enough. Now people want gray-vector dE's under 1. The following are my opinion and so not subject to debate, and of course you are welcome to have different targets.
> 
> I target gray-vector dE under 1, but do not get concerned if a few are in the 1.5 or even nearing 2.0 range. For the gray vector it is more important that the R, G, and B error curves be smooth. That is, for example, as Red goes from 0 to 100%, the errors should not oscillate between (these numbers are just examples) 1, -1, and back to 1. This gives a delta-dE (dE^2) of 2 even though no one reading is over 1. I prefer color errors form a fairly smooth curve, even if dE's go a bit above one. I would prefer dE's going from 1 to 2 and back to 1 since this is a dE^2 of 1. In addition, the colors should conform with each other as much as possible. For example, you would not want error for Red to go from 1, to -1, to 1, while Green goes from -1, to 1, to -1 for the same points. So I always look at the RGB graph rather than just the dEs.
> 
> For non-gray-vector memory-colors, I try for a dE of 2 or less, but am not too concerned with dE's of 4 for these.
> 
> For non-memory-colors, I try for a dE under 6 to 8, but I take what I can get since without a "color match" to reference I do not think people notice these larger errors in random non-memory colors.
> 
> I am not a color scientist, and these are my "can't see any color errors" suggestions. If a PhD Color Physicist told me I need to change my thoughts on this I would listen closely, meaning these are not cast in stone. Some prefer achieving smaller errors. However, I also believe that calibration is like pulling on control points using rubber bands. If you pull on the rubber bands too hard you may get better readings, and a worse picture. I call this breaking the rubber bands. Said targeting lower dEs than these may not get you a better picture.


All great points Jim. I think we are seeing more of the dE of 1 or below because people have this need to cling to numbers (just like marketing). In the CRT days getting a dE of 10 or less was stellar, now we have folks obsessing over numbers that are WAY below the threshold of our perception because the programs provide more information to focus on and charts with reports that change as you adjust and NEVER look perfect because they scale on the fly. A dE of 3 or less is still low enough that you can't see the error in normal use. A 1 or less is required in studio work for a couple reasons. Mainly because in studios you have multiple monitors side by side, so you are comparing images DIRECTLY and you will see differences in that usage case (which we don't have at home). But also because the error is additive for studio work. If their monitor isn't really low, the errors in their authoring work will compound with the errors in the end users display. So if they start high, and the end user (consumer) has a display with high error, they compound. When I calibrate I try my best to get a dE of 2 or less for my max and an average under 1 if at all possible (some displays can't achieve this even with a LUT box due to limitations in design). I do this so that there is room to drift over time before errors will become more noticeable with my clients.


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> I installed the long awaited new firmware and I must say that it is a very powerful step forward. I have observed that occasionally the light of the scene varies in intensity. even if you remove adaptive hdr the problem remains. has happened to someone?


Sometimes this is in the source itself. I remember another member here commenting on this before and gave me some examples, and they all did it even without any DTM on because the source had variation in it. You may also get some variability from any dynamic contrast function you have engaged on your display (if you are using any). If you have frame adaptive off, you shouldn't see any variability from the Lumagen. You may see some on occasion with it on, as it is a dynamic function and some scenes may cause issues. That is the nature of a dynamic system, it can never be perfect.


----------



## Yoxxy

Vinturbo said:


> I installed the long awaited new firmware and I must say that it is a very powerful step forward. I have observed that occasionally the light of the scene varies in intensity. even if you remove adaptive hdr the problem remains. has happened to someone?


It looks fantastic. A major step forward. Barring jvc finds someway to take a massive step forward in black floor, I can’t imagine the picture looking any better.


----------



## Vinturbo

Kris Deering said:


> Sometimes this is in the source itself. I remember another member here commenting on this before and gave me some examples, and they all did it even without any DTM on because the source had variation in it. You may also get some variability from any dynamic contrast function you have engaged on your display (if you are using any). If you have frame adaptive off, you shouldn't see any variability from the Lumagen. You may see some on occasion with it on, as it is a dynamic function and some scenes may cause issues. That is the nature of a dynamic system, it can never be perfect.


Hi Kris thanks for your reply. i don't use any dynamic contrast on my JVC, but i will check if whitout DTM the problem remain because the movie has the problem. If the problem isn't on the movie, i will write where is the problem and which movie


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Just to put it out there, in my experience having a Lumagen between an AVR/pre-pro and a projector is typically not that great for overall performance and stability. I've had lots of clients that have tried it and most have had issues (I've even tried it between my AVM60, which doesn't have ANY video processing and my projector and it always creates issues that are a non-issue when I use the Radiance for switching). I HIGHLY encourage using the Radiance for the video switching. Yamaha receivers haven't impressed me with how they handle HDMI in terms of just leaving it completely alone when they pass it thru.


Thanks, as always, for weighing in, Chris. I totally understand your opinion, but I'm prepared to initially attempt that video chain configuration in order to maintain the AVR's GUI. Judging from the results of Chad B's highly accurate calibration (and his professional opinion), it seems that the RX-A3080 pass through proved highly stable and did not add unwanted noise or other artifact to the video signal path. My 4240 will be installed & calibrated by Craig Rounds. He intends to bring a 2nd 18GHz input card with him, just in case the 3080 proves problematic when positioned before the 4240.

Lastly, you mention that your clients have had "issues" but you don't provide any clue as to what these issues might be. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could be a bit more specific so that I be on the lookout when the 4240 is installed.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks, as always, for weighing in, Chris. I totally understand your opinion, but I'm prepared to initially attempt that video chain configuration in order to maintain the AVR's GUI. Judging from the results of Chad B's highly accurate calibration (and his professional opinion), it seems that the RX-A3080 pass through proved highly stable and did not add unwanted noise or other artifact to the video signal path. My 4240 will be installed & calibrated by Craig Rounds. He intends to bring a 2nd 18GHz input card with him, just in case the 3080 proves problematic when positioned before the 4240.
> 
> Lastly, you mention that your clients have had "issues" but you don't provide any clue as to what these issues might be. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could be a bit more specific so that I be on the lookout when the 4240 is installed.


If you want the AVR/audio-processor in-line with the video, I suggest you put it after the Radiance Pro and use output 2 on a 424X model, for 18 GHz output, or Output 1 for 9 GHz output card after you enable video (need to temporarily use output 2 to see video, then enable video on the 9 GHz Output 1 using the Output Setup Menu, do a Save, and then switch to using Output 1).

Several advantages to having the Pro do the switching over the AVR first scheme:

- The AVR need only support SDR since Pro will tone map HDR10, or HLG, back to SDR (we call this "HDR in a SDR container"). If a new video format is added the AVR would not need to add it before it can be supports, Of course the Pro would but that is true for either connection order.

- If you have a projector that only achieves a 709 Gamut, the Pro can convert to SDR 709 so the AVR then does not need to support Rec 2020.

- The Pro works to minimize output restarts, and you can set the Pro to nearly eliminate them for video. If the Pro output does not restart than the AVR/audio-processor does not need to restart the HDMI connection on either its input or output. The Pro has an internal frame buffer, and especially for 4k most AVRs/audio-processor do not. The frame buffer helps reduce the number of output restarts that have to trickle through the chain. Audio does need to restart on a audio change but if the video is not changing this is faster than if you have the AVR first in the chain.

- I believe the Pro output is more "compatible" than many AVR/audio-processors. At least the Pro output is better at driving AVR inputs than AVRs are at driving the Pro.

So you might want to give the Pro being first in the chain a try so it does the switching.


----------



## jrp

I thought I should give readers here an update on products. Below is some of the information I sent to our dealers in early December.

We have had an increase in manufacturing cost for the Radiance Pro line nearing 20% for the 424X models in just this past year. Some of this is the China tariffs (a lot of our parts come from China), a large increase in assembly cost, and a large increase in the cost of the FPGA (which as some of you know was already a large percentage of our product cost). I am hopeful the tariff situation will get better, but the other increases are here to stay. So, we need to make some changes to the product line.

Because of the cost increases, the two input Radiance Pro models no longer meet our minimum margin requirements, so we are dropping the two-input models from the product line. After January first the 4240 and the 4440 will no longer be available. We also need to raise prices on the 4242 models by between $200 and $250, starting January 1st, 2020. 

Note that the 4442, 4444, and the 4446 pricing remains the same.

The new "entry" model for those who need HDR source support (most everyone) is a 4242 with two 18 GHz inputs, two 9 GHz inputs, and two 9 GHz outputs. To simply ordering for this, I have added this to our product list as the "Radiance Pro 4242+."

Not much else to say on this. No one likes price increases. We have been covering the China tariff increase, and assembly cost increases, over the past year, but the FPGA price increase was the last straw, so to speak.

If you have questions, please contact your Lumagen dealer or Lumagen sales directly.


----------



## tnaik4

docrog said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to put it out there, in my experience having a Lumagen between an AVR/pre-pro and a projector is typically not that great for overall performance and stability. I've had lots of clients that have tried it and most have had issues (I've even tried it between my AVM60, which doesn't have ANY video processing and my projector and it always creates issues that are a non-issue when I use the Radiance for switching). I HIGHLY encourage using the Radiance for the video switching. Yamaha receivers haven't impressed me with how they handle HDMI in terms of just leaving it completely alone when they pass it thru.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, as always, for weighing in, Chris. I totally understand your opinion, but I'm prepared to initially attempt that video chain configuration in order to maintain the AVR's GUI. Judging from the results of Chad B's highly accurate calibration (and his professional opinion), it seems that the RX-A3080 pass through proved highly stable and did not add unwanted noise or other artifact to the video signal path. My 4240 will be installed & calibrated by Craig Rounds. He intends to bring a 2nd 18GHz input card with him, just in case the 3080 proves problematic when positioned before the 4240.
> 
> Lastly, you mention that your clients have had "issues" but you don't provide any clue as to what these issues might be. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could be a bit more specific so that I be on the lookout when the 4240 is installed.
Click to expand...

I have the 4242 model and i use it before the AVR, so all my inputs straight to the radiance and then out 2 for audio/ video to the AVR ( yamaha AX2050 ) and it works like a charm once u have all the correct settings, it might have the odd hdmi sync from time to time but i found that was due to the source or a mismach between in and out, once i set 422 12bit for both in and out its completelt stable.
I do use though all Ruepiro fiber cables.


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## bobof

Vinturbo said:


> Hi Kris thanks for your reply. i don't use any dynamic contrast on my JVC, but i will check if whitout DTM the problem remain because the movie has the problem. If the problem isn't on the movie, i will write where is the problem and which movie


Definitely double check the source. I was the poster referred to by @Kris Deering and was caught out by some source issues looking very similar to previously addressed issues in the Lumagen DTM - I think the two issues I saw was one scene in Narcos and another at the beginning of LaLaLand. Since seeing those I've spotted a few other content issues where it looks like someone has either got a notchy aperture on a non-video lens, or has applied something in post without aligning to the beginning of a scene. It is quite surprising some of the gaffes that get through to release. The one on LaLaLand, given the budget of the movie and how obvious the issue is - really surprised me.

---

For what it is worth I don't think I've seen a mis-step yet in the most recent release from Lumagen, it's an awesome piece of work. Congrats to @jrp and the team


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## docrog

If connected through the Radiance Pro, is there any disadvantage to using an entry level Sony UHD player (Sony UBP-X700) in comparison with the Panasonic UB820 in terms of ultimate video quality sent to the JVC NX7?


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> If connected through the Radiance Pro, is there any disadvantage to using an entry level Sony UHD player (Sony UBP-X700) in comparison with the Panasonic UB820 in terms of ultimate video quality sent to the JVC NX7?


No, the Sony is fine. It also allows for a source direct mode, so you can use the scaling in the Radiance for DVD/Blu-ray sources instead of the onboard scaling in the player. It is also a faster player than the 820 for everyday use if I remember properly.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> No, the Sony is fine. It also allows for a source direct mode, so you can use the scaling in the Radiance for DVD/Blu-ray sources instead of the onboard scaling in the player. It is also a faster player than the 820 for everyday use if I remember properly.


Thanks, Chris, I knew that upscaling could be turned off in the X700, so I was hoping that would be the answer (a plus is that the Sony can also play my SA-CD collection, so the Oppo would no longer be required). That player would allow me to sell off the Oppo 103D and UB820, consolidating to 4 video sources. It should wind up pretty close to a wash: purchasing the Sony & 2nd Lumagen video input card versus selling the 103D & UB820. I guess the decision would be whether to purchase the 9GHz or 18GHz input card to go along with the 18GHZ input card in the current 4240 configuration. I'm not sure whether or not 2 of the 4 sources (Sony UBP-X700, ATV4K, TiVO Bolt & Roku Ultra) will play nicely with the 9GHz input card, since I believe that 3 of them might be better off interfacing with the 18GHz card.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks, as always, for weighing in, Chris. I totally understand your opinion, but I'm prepared to initially attempt that video chain configuration in order to maintain the AVR's GUI. Judging from the results of Chad B's highly accurate calibration (and his professional opinion), it seems that the RX-A3080 pass through proved highly stable and did not add unwanted noise or other artifact to the video signal path. My 4240 will be installed & calibrated by Craig Rounds. He intends to bring a 2nd 18GHz input card with him, just in case the 3080 proves problematic when positioned before the 4240.
> 
> Lastly, you mention that your clients have had "issues" but you don't provide any clue as to what these issues might be. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could be a bit more specific so that I be on the lookout when the 4240 is installed.


Maybe you just don't know this but this industry is how I make my living. As you can see in my signature I have a consulting and education business. I also sell Lumagen processors. If I was to mention every issue, setting and tweak to guys on the forum I am essentially devaluing the services I offer to paid customers. That is why I don't chime in with settings and guides. If your dealer for a product can't offer you that type of support, maybe you should think about where you're buying a product like this from and how many questions you are going to have after you install it.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Maybe you just don't know this but this industry is how I make my living. As you can see in my signature I have a consulting and education business. I also sell Lumagen processors. If I was to mention every issue, setting and tweak to guys on the forum I am essentially devaluing the services I offer to paid customers. That is why I don't chime in with settings and guides. If your dealer for a product can't offer you that type of support, maybe you should think about where you're buying a product like this from and how many questions you are going to have after you install it.


Kris, I'm very well aware that your professional services are your livelihood. I would NEVER ask you to share setting information (etc.). You had replied to my recent post by indicating that there had been occasions when your clients experienced issues when the Lumagen was positioned between the AVR and display in the video chain. I was only following up on your post by inquiring what was meant by "issues" so that I could on the lookout for them, if they occurred. I am always appreciative of your contributions to the several threads on which you post and value your responses to my posts.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Chris, I'm very well aware that your professional services are your livelihood. I would NEVER ask you to share setting information (etc.). You had replied to my recent post by indicating that there had been occasions when your clients experienced issues when the Lumagen was positioned between the AVR and display in the video chain. I was only following up on your post by inquiring what was meant by "issues" so that I could on the lookout for them, if they occurred. I am always appreciative of your contributions to the several threads on which you post and value your responses to my posts.


There are potential issues both ways; Sources -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Display, and Sources -> Lumagen -> AVR & Display. For sources travelling via an AVR you have possible issues of unwanted video meddling from the AVR HDMI board, and device specific connectivity issues. A for-instance would be that my previous 18G Denon AVR's output was not liked much by the Lumagen, but my current Arcam's appears to be fine.

For AppleTV4K there is good reason not to connect via Lumagen inputs if you have HDR enabled and 18G input - the DV -> HDR10 conversion process results in some odd (out of spec) metadata changes for some titles, and the current 18G input firmware will often glitch audio at those points. It is particularly noticeable on Atmos titles but can be detected without Atmos too. Because of this I have my AppleTV connected direct to the AVR with video looped back to the Lumagen, which eliminates the audio glitching as an issue.

Similarly, for Samsung UHD players there is also good reason to at least run a separate audio out to the AVR if you have a player with such, or run the combined video / audio to the AVR and loop the video back to the Lumagen. If you have a Samsung UHD player enabled for Bitstream audio then on chapter skips it switches very briefly from bitstream -> PCM -> bitstream, and occasionally this causes an issue in the 18G input card and audio mutes until input change.

I have my system setup in a mixed mode where some devices go direct via the Lumagen to the display with audio only to the AVR (either from the Lumagen or from the device direct), and some are hooked up to the AVR direct with the Lumagen receiving the AVR video. It took some significant effort for me to find all the various quirks of the setups possible and work to get the best result, and I guess that kind of know-how is also what you are paying for when dealing with a pro.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> There are potential issues both ways; Sources -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Display, and Sources -> Lumagen -> AVR & Display. For sources travelling via an AVR you have possible issues of unwanted video meddling from the AVR HDMI board, and device specific connectivity issues. A for-instance would be that my previous 18G Denon AVR's output was not liked much by the Lumagen, but my current Arcam's appears to be fine.
> 
> For AppleTV4K there is good reason not to connect via Lumagen inputs if you have HDR enabled and 18G input - the DV -> HDR10 conversion process results in some odd (out of spec) metadata changes for some titles, and the current 18G input firmware will often glitch audio at those points. It is particularly noticeable on Atmos titles but can be detected without Atmos too. Because of this I have my AppleTV connected direct to the AVR with video looped back to the Lumagen, which eliminates the audio glitching as an issue.
> 
> Similarly, for Samsung UHD players there is also good reason to at least run a separate audio out to the AVR if you have a player with such, or run the combined video / audio to the AVR and loop the video back to the Lumagen. If you have a Samsung UHD player enabled for Bitstream audio then on chapter skips it switches very briefly from bitstream -> PCM -> bitstream, and occasionally this causes an issue in the 18G input card and audio mutes until input change.
> 
> I have my system setup in a mixed mode where some devices go direct via the Lumagen to the display with audio only to the AVR (either from the Lumagen or from the device direct), and some are hooked up to the AVR direct with the Lumagen receiving the AVR video. It took some significant effort for me to find all the various quirks of the setups possible and work to get the best result, and I guess that kind of know-how is also what you are paying for when dealing with a pro.


Many thanks for that extremely detailed synopsis. I anticipate that my Lumagen will arrive next week and be fully calibrated/integrated in late January by one of the most knowledgeable Lumagen installers in the USA. While I await professional calibration, I plan to position the Lumagen between the AVR & NX7 to avoid having to break out audio as well as being able to maintain the AVR's GUI. Thus far, my AVR/NX7 have proven to be entirely compatible with all of my video sources (including 18GHz). I'll certainly be able to catalog obvious glitches (such as audio drop out) and incompatibilities, but I'm uncertain if those are the "issues" to which Kris Deering was referring. My assumption was that he was referring to some component of video degradation, "unwanted video meddling" as you put it, a feature that might be more subtle and difficult to identify without having some warning..........


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Many thanks for that extremely detailed synopsis. I anticipate that my Lumagen will arrive next week and be fully calibrated/integrated in late January by one of the most knowledgeable Lumagen installers in the USA. While I await professional calibration, I plan to position the Lumagen between the AVR & NX7 to avoid having to break out audio as well as being able to maintain the AVR's GUI. Thus far, my AVR/NX7 have proven to be entirely compatible with all of my video sources (including 18GHz). I'll certainly be able to catalog obvious glitches (such as audio drop out) and incompatibilities, but I'm uncertain if those are the "issues" to which Kris Deering was referring. My assumption was that he was referring to some component of video degradation, a feature that might be more subtle and difficult to identify without having some warning..........


Well, hopefully it works for you with the particular AVR you plan to use - it works OK for my Arcam. My experience with my Denon AVR into the Lumagen input was one of frustration, frequent drop outs and resyncs. That was almost a couple of years ago though, with one of Denon's first 18G designs. Not wanting to put words into anyone's mouth, but I think @jrp was referring more to issues of HDMI robustness than subtleties of marginal picture quality variation due to unwanted processing.



jrp said:


> I believe the Pro output is more "compatible" than many AVR/audio-processors. At least the Pro output is better at driving AVR inputs than AVRs are at driving the Pro.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Well, hopefully it works for you with the particular AVR you plan to use - it works OK for my Arcam. My experience with my Denon AVR into the Lumagen input was one of frustration, frequent drop outs and resyncs. That was almost a couple of years ago though, with one of Denon's first 18G designs. Not wanting to put words into anyone's mouth, but I think @jrp was referring more to issues of HDMI robustness than subtleties of marginal picture quality variation due to unwanted processing.


My Yamaha RX-A3080 is the current year top-of-the-line, so, hopefully, the kinks may have been worked out. I have absolutely *NO* understanding of "robustness" as it applies to HDMI


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## Bytehoven

bobof said:


> ... It took some significant effort for me to find all the various quirks of the setups possible and work to get the best result, and I guess that kind of know-how is also what you are paying for when dealing with a pro.


Bobof... thank you for being one of the members who helps others. I know you and Geomania made my brief experience with the 4442 very productive. I try to pay forward all of the help I have received over the years, and AVS is a worthy destination because so many others share your love of all things HT. 

Happy Holidays and Happy New Year.

:grin:


----------



## dgkula

Anyone seeing instability with the new firmware? I watched the Last Jedi 4k HDR last night and about an hour in had bad audio dropouts, pixellation, screen freezes and the video and audio eventually locked up. I can't reproduce it now but it was persistent in that I went back to main menu on the Panasonic Blu ray player and hitting play again resulted in the freezes. I put in Logan 4k HDR and watched that instead without issue. 

I haven't had any issues since installing the monoprice cables at the rack and the ruipro cable from lumagen to projector. All sources go into lumagen and audio goes to AVR, video runs from lumagen to jvc projector.

Any thoughts? I'll try to reproduce this weekend.


----------



## Mike Garrett

dgkula said:


> Anyone seeing instability with the new firmware? I watched the Last Jedi 4k HDR last night and about an hour in had bad audio dropouts, pixellation, screen freezes and the video and audio eventually locked up. I can't reproduce it now but it was persistent in that I went back to main menu on the Panasonic Blu ray player and hitting play again resulted in the freezes. I put in Logan 4k HDR and watched that instead without issue.
> 
> I haven't had any issues since installing the monoprice cables at the rack and the ruipro cable from lumagen to projector. All sources go into lumagen and audio goes to AVR, video runs from lumagen to jvc projector.
> 
> Any thoughts? I'll try to reproduce this weekend.


No instability here and I have probably watched 20 hours of HDR with new firmware.


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> Anyone seeing instability with the new firmware? I watched the Last Jedi 4k HDR last night and about an hour in had bad audio dropouts, pixellation, screen freezes and the video and audio eventually locked up. I can't reproduce it now but it was persistent in that I went back to main menu on the Panasonic Blu ray player and hitting play again resulted in the freezes. I put in Logan 4k HDR and watched that instead without issue.
> 
> I haven't had any issues since installing the monoprice cables at the rack and the ruipro cable from lumagen to projector. All sources go into lumagen and audio goes to AVR, video runs from lumagen to jvc projector.
> 
> Any thoughts? I'll try to reproduce this weekend.


Did you have to do anything to un-lock it up, other than change disc? The way you describe it, it almost sounds more like just a bad disc read / issue with your player, rather than issue with the Lumagen. Pixellation in particular (by which my understanding would be that the image becomes recognise-able but very blocky, with pixels grouped into larger blocks) is hard to think of a way that it would happen in the Pro, whereas it is very easily created in a player.

I've racked up quite a few hours without issue, though one other poster did report some stability issue. Not sure where they got to in their investigations.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-210.html#post59000378


----------



## dgkula

bobof said:


> Did you have to do anything to un-lock it up, other than change disc? The way you describe it, it almost sounds more like just a bad disc read / issue with your player, rather than issue with the Lumagen. Pixellation in particular (by which my understanding would be that the image becomes recognise-able but very blocky, with pixels grouped into larger blocks) is hard to think of a way that it would happen in the Pro, whereas it is very easily created in a player.
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-210.html#post59000378


I took the Lumagen out of the chain so it is Panasonic UB900 > audio out to AVR (Monoprice certified 6' cable) / video out to JVC RS620 (Ruipro 30m hybrid cable) and it still happens. Video linked below (takes a second to load). So it is either the player or the media - the Blu Ray was sold in the US (Best Buy) and the back is in mint condition so it isn't a result of damage to the disc.

Any thoughts on how to troubleshoot? Maybe simple as ordering another copy of the disc?

https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid...1FBDA03C32F6B9!172848&authkey=APcojHdE_n-W5-o


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> I took the Lumagen out of the chain so it is Panasonic UB900 > audio out to AVR (Monoprice certified 6' cable) / video out to JVC RS620 (Ruipro 30m hybrid cable) and it still happens. Video linked below (takes a second to load). So it is either the player or the media - the Blu Ray was sold in the US (Best Buy) and the back is in mint condition so it isn't a result of damage to the disc.
> 
> Any thoughts on how to troubleshoot? Maybe simple as ordering another copy of the disc?
> 
> https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid...1FBDA03C32F6B9!172848&authkey=APcojHdE_n-W5-o


Discs can be bad regardless of the surface looking mint; I guess worst case it could be a sign of a player turning its toes up. Just get a replacement, I give you a 90% chance of it fixing it.


----------



## Craig Peer

dgkula said:


> I took the Lumagen out of the chain so it is Panasonic UB900 > audio out to AVR (Monoprice certified 6' cable) / video out to JVC RS620 (Ruipro 30m hybrid cable) and it still happens. Video linked below (takes a second to load). So it is either the player or the media - the Blu Ray was sold in the US (Best Buy) and the back is in mint condition so it isn't a result of damage to the disc.
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on how to troubleshoot? Maybe simple as ordering another copy of the disc?
> 
> 
> 
> https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid...1FBDA03C32F6B9!172848&authkey=APcojHdE_n-W5-o




Try cleaning the disc. Even though it looks good you never know. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgkula

Washed it with dishsoap - no dice, still freezes and pizellates. Ordered a new copy on Amazon. Searched the internet for "UHD Blu Ray freezing" and holy cow - kind of hard to believe this is the first experience I have had as troubles seem rife with this format. Appreciate the help. Good luck all.


----------



## Ash Sharma

As a big Sci Fi fan -I am loving Lost In Space Season 2 on Netflix - love the eye candy of the space scenes picture and ATMOS sound quality is 10 times better than Mandalorian (shame on you Disney).
But watching this show also proves how difficult it is to handle HDR using DTM on a low Nit Projector system like mine (110 nit) no matter how good the ALGO (could be a good MadVR and Lumagen DTM compare material). 
Scenes for example on season 2 episode 2 and 3 (I have not watched 4 yet) where the characters are inside the ship wearing their lighted space suits - the lights from the bulbs on the helmets project up like flash lights on my Projector image.
The same scene on my 4K QLED Q9FN (lots of nits no DTM applied) image - none of those anomalies.
The material is awesome and its of intentional lens flaring strobing of lights and very bright scenes )in fact they have a disclaimer before each episode that the photoelectric lights may not be suitable for all users).
If someone is interested in this material - please watch and post your comments - I would like to know if others have the same experience.


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> I have been away from AVS for a while. We are about to do another release that has significant improvement for DTM. So time for me to check in.
> 
> This release improves the "Adaptive" part of DTM (call it ADTM). We had some "pumping" issues with ADTM that are now resolved. There are also a number of other improvements. Some apply to many scenes and some are more specific to a small class of scene types. I have been surprised at how Patrick has been able to continue to improve on the already excellent scene detection, and scene adaptive function (the ADTM). I think you will be excited by the improvements.
> 
> We have also had a few people (more than a few?) messing about with the DTM parameters and getting themselves in a bad state. So, this release will also have a simplified DTM user interface in "User Mode." If you insist on more "rope," the current interface will still be available in Service Mode. Just be aware that we believe the defaults are the best settings and changes you make to parameters not shown in User Mode will likely degrade the image rather than improve it.
> 
> We are simplifying the DTM parameter menu in User Mode. The DTM parameter menu (left arrow) will be:
> 
> Low Ratio: 0 to 63 (Default = 31)
> DynPad: 0 to 7 (Default = 3)
> DeSat: 0 to 15 (default = 4)
> Global Max Light: 100 to 9990 (default = 500)
> 
> You need to set the Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu (or it is now shown in the DTM parameter menu as Global Max Light). I am recommending five (5) times the measured light in nits. This multiple is a trade off between brighter scenes (lower Max Light), and color saturation (higher Max Light). I am considering more testing using a multiple of four (4) times measured maximum light, but not there yet. Also, I have talked to some who prefer a multiple of 3 to 4. This is a personal choice and can also depend on if you have a lower light output projector and want a brighter image.
> 
> Note that if you have values other than the above defaults in your unit, they will not be changed by the update. You would need to reset the HDR parameters (each input and input memory or change one and copy to the others. Then do a Save).
> 
> Some have asked why the Max Light is not set to 1X measured light in nits. The "1X measured light" setting is in the mix, but for "dark scenes" as it needs to be. We will show the effective Low Light Max in this menu. *You can look a the "effective Max Light" (adjusted by Low Ratio) and adjust until it is about 1X measured light (or your preferred multiple for low light scenes).*
> 
> Note that, as shown, the new default for "Low Ratio" is 31 (currently 15). Using 15 still works well, but with the improvements in the DTM we are seeing that you can raise this value (reducing the dark scene effective max light and raising brightness) without seeing clipping. Setting the Low-set ratio to 31 will result in roughly “1X” measured light (assuming Max Light is in the 5x range) for dark scenes. We have exended the Low Ratio range. It was -31 to 31, and now is 0 to 63. We eliminated negative numbers as they do not make sense to use, but were still showing up in some questions I received.
> 
> We are also changing the default DynPad to 3 (currently 6). Again this is because the improvement allow a brighter image without showing clipping. With a setting of 3 we do not expect there to be visible clipping. However, even a settings of 2, or 1, may have few scenes where there might be a bit of clipping of highlights. However the overall image will be brighter. I am currently using DynPad = 3 but experimenting with settings of 1 and 2. So you might want to try 1, 2, and 3 for DynPad to see which you prefer.
> 
> DeSat (de-saturation) has not changed. We left it in for User Mode since some like to have a different setting for this.
> 
> Note: The ADTM parameters are per-input and per-input-memory, except for "Global Max Light." It is "global" to all inputs and input memories that use the currently active CMS (which is typically CMS1 for HDR). For example if the current CMS for HDR is CMS1, this Global Max Light is the same value as CMS1->HDR Mapping->HDR Mapping->Max Light.
> 
> Note: If you want the settings (excepting Max Light) to apply to other inputs or input memories, use the "Input Copy" command to copy to the other inputs and/or memories. As always, make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.
> 
> There are a few other additions to the user interface. For example you can now program the right arrow to bring up test patterns rather than the Darbee menu, or program the up/down arrows to step through Input Aspect Ratio selections. This release fixes an issue using NLS with "Auto Aspect" that was recently reported.
> 
> These improvements should be in a release in the next day or two.


Hi Jim, 

I would just like to confirm if the recommendation is now to set Low Ratio to 1x, as you noted above? "You can look a the "effective Max Light" (adjusted by Low Ratio) and adjust until it is about 1X measured light (or your preferred multiple for low light scenes)."

Back in August, in this post, it was recommended:

For Projectors in the 70-140 Nit Range: 
▪	Adjust the Low-set ratio so that it is 2 times the measured maximum (HDR) light output. For a projector with 100 Nits maximum (HDR) brightness, set this to get as close to 200 as possible.

OLED Panels: 
▪	Adjust the Low-Set ratio so that it is 2 times the measured maximum (HDR) light output. 

Thanks for all your efforts.

Mark


----------



## WCW

We are so enjoying our HT. It just keeps getting better, the firmware update is fantastic. Great job by the folks at Lumagen and Kris, keep up the good work guys!


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ash Sharma said:


> As a big Sci Fi fan -I am loving Lost In Space Season 2 on Netflix - love the eye candy of the space scenes picture and ATMOS sound quality is 10 times better than Mandalorian (shame on you Disney).
> But watching this show also proves how difficult it is to handle HDR using DTM on a low Nit Projector system like mine (110 nit) no matter how good the ALGO (could be a good MadVR and Lumagen DTM compare material).
> Scenes for example on season 2 episode 2 and 3 (I have not watched 4 yet) where the characters are inside the ship wearing their lighted space suits - the lights from the bulbs on the helmets project up like flash lights on my Projector image.
> The same scene on my 4K QLED Q9FN (lots of nits no DTM applied) image - none of those anomalies.
> The material is awesome and its of intentional lens flaring strobing of lights and very bright scenes )in fact they have a disclaimer before each episode that the photoelectric lights may not be suitable for all users).
> If someone is interested in this material - please watch and post your comments - I would like to know if others have the same experience.


I watched season 2 on my RS3000 and thought it looked very good. I will have to take a look at those scenes on my QLED Q80.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Mike Garrett said:


> I watched season 2 on my RS3000 and thought it looked very good. I will have to take a look at those scenes on my QLED Q80.


Mike - The picture looks fantastic, no complaints at all - without Radiance no way I could achieve such a good image.
My comments are just a observation - and actually I like the over emphasized effects on my projector versus the QLED...


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> The Lumagen EDID doesn't claim DV compatibility, so the AppleTV sees the HDR10 capability in the EDID and converts DV to HDR10 output, albeit often with noncompliant metadata which causes issues for the 18G inputs (audio glitches up to every 30 s on some content is the one remaining issue).
> 
> It is arguably a bug (or at least a strange choice) that Apple decide to tell you the content is available in Dolby Vision when the display can't display it as DV. I guess at least it helps you realize the reason why you might have issues.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


I'm a bit confused by your post regarding the Lumagen's EDID as seen by ATV4K. Is the ATV4K DV issue relevant for 18GHz on the Lumagen's input or output card (or both??)? Thanks!


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> If you want the AVR/audio-processor in-line with the video, I suggest you put it after the Radiance Pro and use output 2 on a 424X model, for 18 GHz output, or Output 1 for 9 GHz output card after you enable video (need to temporarily use output 2 to see video, then enable video on the 9 GHz Output 1 using the Output Setup Menu, do a Save, and then switch to using Output 1).
> 
> Several advantages to having the Pro do the switching over the AVR first scheme:
> 
> - The AVR need only support SDR since Pro will tone map HDR10, or HLG, back to SDR (we call this "HDR in a SDR container"). If a new video format is added the AVR would not need to add it before it can be supports, Of course the Pro would but that is true for either connection order.
> 
> - If you have a projector that only achieves a 709 Gamut, the Pro can convert to SDR 709 so the AVR then does not need to support Rec 2020.
> 
> - The Pro works to minimize output restarts, and you can set the Pro to nearly eliminate them for video. If the Pro output does not restart than the AVR/audio-processor does not need to restart the HDMI connection on either its input or output. The Pro has an internal frame buffer, and especially for 4k most AVRs/audio-processor do not. The frame buffer helps reduce the number of output restarts that have to trickle through the chain. Audio does need to restart on a audio change but if the video is not changing this is faster than if you have the AVR first in the chain.
> 
> - I believe the Pro output is more "compatible" than many AVR/audio-processors. At least the Pro output is better at driving AVR inputs than AVRs are at driving the Pro.
> 
> So you might want to give the Pro being first in the chain a try so it does the switching.


Jim, thank you for that advice as an alternative video chain which would preserve my AVR's GUI. Although my AVR (Yamaha RX-A3080) is able to successfully pass through HDR BT.2020 for 4K @ 60Hz (18GHz, 4:4:4) to my JVC NX7, I will try that configuration. However, I had originally planned on a 18G 4240 (if the Lumagen was between the AVR & NX7 I'd only need 1 input card). Can *2* of these *4* devices successfully make use of a 9G input card (to change the Lumagen to 4242): ATV4K, Roku Ultra, TiVO Bolt, Sony UBP-X700 UHD player???


----------



## Mike_WI

*Year 2020 Priority List?*

@jrp was wondering what the Yr 2020 priority list is looking like?
When is the FW not "beta"?

Thanks and Happy New Year all!


*2019 Feb 28*
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-134.html#post57675682




> Now the dynamic tone mapping is out of the way, what’s next on the priority list?
> 
> What’s the current expected features list?
> LOL ... that didn't take long
> 
> First let me say Dynamic Tone Mapping is out but not complete. As good as I think it is already, I believe we will be tuning it for a while yet. However, there will likely be resource to work on other things.
> 
> There are three high priority items (assuming I am not forgetting anything):
> - PiP/PoP (for 444X only)
> - Some form of 4k image enhancement
> - Pipeline precision enhancement to 12-bits, or more, for the entire pipeline
> 
> We have not decided yet, but I am leaning toward some form of edge enhancement for 4k sources (and lower resolutions as well of course) as the highest priority.


----------



## docrog

If I'm only using 1 HDMI input (4240), am I able to map the 4 physical memory buttons (A-D) on the remote control to 4 virtual memories, or are these buttons specifically tied to separate HDMI inputs?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> If I'm only using 1 HDMI input (4240), am I able to map the 4 physical memory buttons (A-D) on the remote control to 4 virtual memories, or are these buttons specifically tied to separate HDMI inputs?


The A B C D memories are specific to the Inputs be they real or virtual.....ie Input 4 MEM D could be looking at PHYSICAL input 1 as could Input 3 MEM D


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> The A B C D memories are specific to the Inputs be they real or virtual.....ie Input 4 MEM D could be looking at PHYSICAL input 1 as could Input 3 MEM D


Thanks for your response. I seem to be a bit dense here..... I would have only 1 HDMI input source from the AVR (which performs switching from 4 video devices). I want to be able to have 4 virtual memories in the Lumagen, one for each of the video devices plugged into HDMI ports in the AVR (with the potential for separate parameters for each virtual memory=video device). How do I remap the remote control's memory buttons to accomplish that access? The user manual lacks clarity for this feature.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I'm a bit confused by your post regarding the Lumagen's EDID as seen by ATV4K. Is the ATV4K DV issue relevant for 18GHz on the Lumagen's input or output card (or both??)? Thanks!


Ignore the post, it was only relevant to the original poster I was replying to. The Lumagen EDID is correct and it doesn't say it can handle DV; the AppleTV will still display DV logos where the content is streamed to the AppleTV in DV and converted internally to HDR10. 

If you want to use an AppleTV4k in HDR you need to be using 18G input cards, output card is down to your preference (see previous comments from @jrp about dithering on 9G cards and the other benefits vs how you feel about not having a true 18G out).



docrog said:


> If I'm only using 1 HDMI input (4240), am I able to map the 4 physical memory buttons (A-D) on the remote control to 4 virtual memories, or are these buttons specifically tied to separate HDMI inputs?


The memories aren't "physical" they're "logical". You get 4 logical memories and up to 8 inputs (virtual or real, depending on connectors and user setup). You can set all the inputs up as virtual inputs with the same physical input connector, which could allow you up to 32 different configuration sets selectable from the remote (8 virtual inputs 1-8 x 4 memories A-D).


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Thanks for your response. I seem to be a bit dense here..... I would have only 1 HDMI input source from the AVR (which performs switching from 4 video devices). I want to be able to have 4 virtual memories in the Lumagen, one for each of the video devices plugged into HDMI ports in the AVR (with the potential for separate parameters for each virtual memory=video device). How do I remap the remote control's memory buttons to accomplish that access? The user manual lacks clarity for this feature.


You can do it eiother by INPUT or by MEMORY.


You can do this by just using MEM A, B, C, D and setting the parameters you want for each. Use a different memory for each source....or


Press INPUT2 and then navigate to MENU> INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>PHYSICAL IN> and SET it to INPUT1 then when you select INPUT 2 on remote it will actually look at INPUT 1 physical input for signal and you can have different parameters set for 2 Mem A. Do the same for INPUT 3 and INPUT 4....remember to SAVE after you've done this


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> The memories aren't "physical" they're "logical". You get 4 logical memories and up to 8 inputs (virtual or real, depending on connectors and user setup). You can set all the inputs up as virtual inputs with the same physical input connector, which could allow you up to 32 different configuration sets selectable from the remote (8 virtual inputs 1-8 x 4 memories A-D).


That seems to clear up much of my confusion. On page 20 in the user manual (Video input menu: in configs setup) it states: "For each input sub-memory adjustments include Picture, Size, Control, and Enhance." Darbee is listed in the manual as an "Enhancement". Does this mean that specific Darbee settings can be applied to each/any of the virtual memories? If not, what does "enhance" represent on p.20?


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> That seems to clear up much of my confusion. On page 20 in the user manual (Video input menu: in configs setup) it states: "For each input sub-memory adjustments include Picture, Size, Control, and Enhance." Darbee is listed in the manual as an "Enhancement". Does this mean that specific Darbee settings can be applied to each/any of the virtual memories? If not, what does "enhance" represent on p.20?


Yes, this covers Darbee. See p. 25 of the manual. 
There were more enhancements available on the previous generation non-Pro product, such as sharpness, contrast enhancement, edge enhancement, etc. Now I think it is pretty much just Darbee available under the Enhance menu.


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> You can do it either by INPUT or by MEMORY.
> 
> You can do this by just using MEM A, B, C, D and setting the parameters you want for each. Use a different memory for each source....or
> 
> Press INPUT2 and then navigate to MENU> INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>PHYSICAL IN> and SET it to INPUT1 then when you select INPUT 2 on remote it will actually look at INPUT 1 physical input for signal and you can have different parameters set for 2 Mem A. Do the same for INPUT 3 and INPUT 4....remember to SAVE after you've done this


Thanks for you assistance, but too many options!


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Yes, this covers Darbee. See p. 25 of the manual. There were more enhancements available on the previous generation non-Pro product, such as sharpness, contrast enhancement, edge enhancement, etc. Now I think it is pretty much just Darbee available under the Enhance menu.


Much appreciated, as always. That's the answer that I was hoping for since it means that I wouldn't have to access the Darbee controls (through that long string of config. commands) for individual virtual devices. Since the PRO only lists 1 enhancement: Darbee, it would have been clearer (at least for me) if the pathway on p.20 had substituted "Darbee" for "Enhance". I wonder if there's any chance that could be rectified in a subsequent firmware version (hint, @jrm)???


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Much appreciated, as always. That's the answer that I was hoping for since it means that I wouldn't have to access the Darbee controls (through that long string of config. commands) for individual virtual devices. Since the PRO only lists 1 enhancement: Darbee, it would have been clearer (at least for me) if the pathway on p.20 had substituted "Darbee" for "Enhance". I wonder if there's any chance that could be rectified in a subsequent firmware version (hint, @jrm)???


I don't think so; I recall sharpness is still in there as placeholders.
You can access Darbee settings for the current input / memory combo using the cursor pad (cursor right assuming default settings) on the remote during 1080p or less playback. You can then copy those settings to other inputs as necessary. It's not _that_ long winded. 

It would be nice one day to have a PC based configuration editor, but the remote works well enough.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> I don't think so; I recall sharpness is still in there as placeholders. You can access Darbee settings for the current input / memory combo using the cursor pad (cursor right assuming default settings) on the remote during 1080p or less playback. You can then copy those settings to other inputs as necessary. It's not _that_ long winded.  It would be nice one day to have a PC based configuration editor, but the remote works well enough.


I knew that Darbee could be accessed from the remote, but it hadn't dawned on me that whatever setting had been selected could then be saved into any individual memory. I guess it would still having to go through the "copy enhancements" string shown on p.25 rather than a 1 button save function.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I knew that Darbee could be accessed from the remote, but it hadn't dawned on me that whatever setting had been selected could then be saved into any individual memory. I guess it would still having to go through the "copy enhancements" string shown on p.25 rather than a 1 button save function.


The right cursor menu acts on the current input / memory combo, you don't need to copy it, just do the config save. To replicate the setting you can either do copy input or just switch to the inputs / memories one by one, setting it appropriately using the right cursor menu. If I recall there is a quick menu shortcut to disable Darbee globally, too (default is on). MENU 0860 turns it globally off, MENU 0861 turns it globally on. 

MENU 19 is a shortcut to get to the full Darbee menu, saves navigating (many such shortcuts listed here: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0013_DirectCommandsAndMenuShortcuts_071316.pdf )


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> The right cursor menu acts on the current input / memory combo, you don't need to copy it, just do the config save. To replicate the setting you can either do copy input or just switch to the inputs / memories one by one, setting it appropriately using the right cursor menu. If I recall there is a quick menu shortcut to disable Darbee globally, too (default is on). MENU 0860 turns it globally off, MENU 0861 turns it globally on. MENU 19 is a shortcut to get to the full Darbee menu, saves navigating (many such shortcuts listed here: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0013_DirectCommandsAndMenuShortcuts_071316.pdf )


So much to learn, so little time..........


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## Craig Peer

Wow - the picture with the new DTM firmware ( now that I've had time to download and test it after the holiday ) looks amazing. Great job !


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> I knew that Darbee could be accessed from the remote, but it hadn't dawned on me that whatever setting had been selected could then be saved into any individual memory. I guess it would still having to go through the "copy enhancements" string shown on p.25 rather than a 1 button save function.


Make sure you are using different input configs for each memory memory if you want to program multiple Darbee settings. Because that´s where the Darbee is stored.


----------



## bearcat2002

Are the new settings set to recommended levels in the new firmware or if we had everything good to go with the last one, just update and forget?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uderman

bobof said:


> Ignore the post, it was only relevant to the original poster I was replying to. The Lumagen EDID is correct and it doesn't say it can handle DV; the AppleTV will still display DV logos where the content is streamed to the AppleTV in DV and converted internally to HDR10.
> 
> If you want to use an AppleTV4k in HDR you need to be using 18G input cards, output card is down to your preference (see previous comments from @jrp about dithering on 9G cards and the other benefits vs how you feel about not having a true 18G out).
> 
> 
> 
> The memories aren't "physical" they're "logical". You get 4 logical memories and up to 8 inputs (virtual or real, depending on connectors and user setup). You can set all the inputs up as virtual inputs with the same physical input connector, which could allow you up to 32 different configuration sets selectable from the remote (8 virtual inputs 1-8 x 4 memories A-D).



Are you positive on ATV4K HDR? I don’t have access to my Radiance Pro at the moment but I am pretty sure I have my ATV4K hooked up to a 9Ghz input card and I get HDR. I can confirm DV is converted to HDR internally on ATV4K.


----------



## giomania

bearcat2002 said:


> Are the new settings set to recommended levels in the new firmware or if we had everything good to go with the last one, just update and forget?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The New default settings for Low Ratio and DynPad did not change when I updated. So those have to be changed to 31 for Low Ratio and 3 for DunPad to align with the new default recommended settings.

By the way gentlemen, I updated the unofficial guide linked in my signature with the changes in the recent firmer update.

Mark


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## bearcat2002

Thanks Giomania


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## A7mad78

giomania said:


> The New default settings for Low Ratio and DynPad did not change when I updated. So those have to be changed to 31 for Low Ratio and 3 for DunPad to align with the new default recommended settings.
> 
> By the way gentlemen, I updated the unofficial guide linked in my signature with the changes in the recent firmer update.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




Can u post the link here with Tapatalk can’t open it in the signature

Thx 


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## giomania

A7mad78 said:


> Can u post the link here with Tapatalk can’t open it in the signature
> 
> Thx
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




IKR

When are they going to add that feature?


https://docs.google.com/file/d/1Zi9...qbClF3E/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msword



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## bobof

uderman said:


> Are you positive on ATV4K HDR? I don’t have access to my Radiance Pro at the moment but I am pretty sure I have my ATV4K hooked up to a 9Ghz input card and I get HDR. I can confirm DV is converted to HDR internally on ATV4K.


The info comes from @Gordon Fraser who's installed a lot of these. 

I only have 18G input cards, but I did an experiment and switched one to 9G mode; you'll find that from a factory reset AppleTV it doesn't seem possible to enable HDR using the "correct" way through the UI - when you select the "enable HDR" menu option you'll just get a black screen and be told after the timeout that HDR can't be enabled. It is possible it seems to get HDR working by playing around with the manual selection in the menu of 24p HDR which seems to enable it for that mode, but I think that you end up with something a bit fragile.

Certainly if you're planning a new system and you want an AppleTV4k in it you should plan to get an 18G input. But then you have to offset the issues with audio dropouts that can happen at the moment on some DV originated titles... not ideal. Mine goes via the AVR and into the Radiance 18G input, which works well.

In any case the ATV4k is very rapidly falling off my love list. There is so much content now on the Netflix service that is in 24.0p - that the AppleTV can't play natively, and drops a frame on every 42s - that it is getting less and less use in my system. As of today, Witcher is the latest afflicted series. Hope Apple pull their finger out and fix this (not holding my breath though).


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> In any case the ATV4k is very rapidly falling off my love list. There is so much content now on the Netflix service that is in 24.0p - that the AppleTV can't play natively, and drops a frame on every 42s - that it is getting less and less use in my system. As of today, Witcher is the latest afflicted series. Hope Apple pull their finger out and fix this (not holding my breath though).


I have two Pros and two ATV4K - one in my cinema and one under my TV. My TV plays perfectly with the ATV/Netflix- no glitches; my cinema has the stuttering issues you mention. Very high chances that both Pros are differently configured, but I cannot recall their configs off the top of my head - my cinema Pro definitely has 18Ghz output cards whereas I doubt my TV one does. Cinema may also have 18Ghz in (maybe not for the ATV however) whereas my TV Pro almost certainly doesn't.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> I have two Pros and two ATV4K - one in my cinema and one under my TV. My TV plays perfectly with the ATV/Netflix- no glitches; my cinema has the stuttering issues you mention. Very high chances that both Pros are differently configured, but I cannot recall their configs off the top of my head - my cinema Pro definitely has 18Ghz output cards whereas I doubt my TV one does. Cinema may also have 18Ghz in (maybe not for the ATV however) whereas my TV Pro almost certainly doesn't.


If the AppleTV isn't matching framerate (ie presenting 24.0p as 59.94 with a broadly 3:2 pulldown with occassional 2:2), and the TV has an advanced reverse pulldown setup, then it might well be masked by the TV processing.


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## Mark_H

bobof said:


> If the AppleTV isn't matching framerate (ie presenting 24.0p as 59.94 with a broadly 3:2 pulldown with occassional 2:2), and the TV has an advanced reverse pulldown setup, then it might well be masked by the TV processing.


Both ATV are set to match frame rate. TV is doing no such processing...


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Both ATV are set to match frame rate. TV is doing no such processing...


Well, there's something going on...  Be interesting if you get to the bottom of what it is.


----------



## pjones

bobof said:


> It is just not very noticeable on ATV in PCM mode. If you want to try a title that I know you can spot it on, I recall "the Meg" from Itunes library at 5mins 5s or so as the helicopter comes in to land is very noticeable in Atmos mode, and just about audible in non-Atmos mode. That title has them every 5m 5s or so. Netflix Iron Fist Season 1 was also quite easy to hear it on - you just need to listen carefully. I don't have it hooked up in the way that makes it happen at the moment.
> 
> In Iron Fist they are there every 30s from the start but to be very noticeable in PCM mode the glitch has to coincide with the audio samples either side of the glitch having a highish level - otherwise you don't hear the glitch. But because of that they can often disappear into the background of the noise.
> 
> I'm glad it doesn't seem to bother you but I'd be very surprised if you don't have it in your system. You don't mention it explicitly I think, but I assume you have the 18G input cards and the ATV is input to the Lumagen, that you are watching the content from the Apple TV in HDR mode (you need that to get the glitch) with the audio coming out of the Lumagen and playing into the AVR via one of the HDMI outs of the Lumagen?


Sorry for the 2+ month late reply—I was just catching up on this thread (before updating to the latest firmware) and saw this topic being discussed again. FWIW, yes, I have my ATV4K sending HDR directly to an 18G input on my Lumagen (Radiance Pro 4444) with audio going to my (ancient, non-Atmos) AVR via output 1, which is a 9G output (output 2 is 18G to projector). Maybe it's me, but I still haven't noticed these audio dropouts. Among various other Netflix DV titles, I've tried Iron Fist as you suggested, including listening with headphones from my AVR.


----------



## thebland

*AUTO=ASPECT QUESTION*

With new firmware, my (Stewart) masking isn't responding to Auto Aspect. Are there any features that may've been deselected during upgrade that I may have to engage? Auto Aspect is enabled on all memories and all inputs. Any thoughts / suggestions?

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

pjones said:


> Sorry for the 2+ month late reply—I was just catching up on this thread (before updating to the latest firmware) and saw this topic being discussed again. FWIW, yes, I have my ATV4K sending HDR directly to an 18G input on my Lumagen (Radiance Pro 4444) with audio going to my (ancient, non-Atmos) AVR via output 1, which is a 9G output (output 2 is 18G to projector). Maybe it's me, but I still haven't noticed these audio dropouts. Among various other Netflix DV titles, I've tried Iron Fist as you suggested, including listening with headphones from my AVR.


Pardon the potentially dumb question - you've got a Netflix Ultra subscription with 4K / HDR?


----------



## pjones

bobof said:


> Pardon the potentially dumb question - you've got a Netflix Ultra subscription with 4K / HDR?


 Yes, I do.


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> *AUTO=ASPECT QUESTION*
> 
> With new firmware, my (Stewart) masking isn't responding to Auto Aspect. Are there any features that may've been deselected during upgrade that I may have to engage? Auto Aspect is enabled on all memories and all inputs. Any thoughts / suggestions?
> 
> Thanks!


It's working fine here for me, but my screen isn't a Stewart - the auto aspect logic is something I put into a Raspberry Pi for control of my screen. But still, I didn't need to change anything.

Note that the Lumagen mutes the updates to the serial port if anything has spoken to it over the USB port, so make sure nothing has done that. Culprits can be doing things like opening Lightspace or other calibration software that talks to the Lumagen for the purpose of setting up the pattern generator.

Have you still got status reporting enabled in the menus?


----------



## thebland

bobof said:


> It's working fine here for me, but my screen isn't a Stewart - the auto aspect logic is something I put into a Raspberry Pi for control of my screen. But still, I didn't need to change anything.
> 
> Note that the Lumagen mutes the updates to the serial port if anything has spoken to it over the USB port, so make sure nothing has done that. Culprits can be doing things like opening Lightspace or other calibration software that talks to the Lumagen for the purpose of setting up the pattern generator.
> 
> Have you still got status reporting enabled in the menus?


My masks speak via RS-232. Just have . to find which reporting settings to engage?? Know them?

Thanks so much!


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## bobof

thebland said:


> My masks speak via RS-232. Just have . to find which reporting settings to engage?? Know them?
> 
> Thanks so much!


Yes, I get they are RS232, but what happens is any conversation over the USB interface with the Lumagen unit stops the reports being sent to the RS232 port, and so having talked to the Radiance over the USB interface with some calibration SW, or something else having polled the USB port, is one reason why RS232 masks stop working.

The report settings shouldn't have disengaged by themselves, unless you've done something like a factory reset?

It could be either "Full" or "Full V2" reports - they both have enough information for aspect control of a screen, and it would be down to the integrator to decide which (not sure if Stewart did the integration, or someone else via a control system).

It's the kind of thing the installer who put it in should be able to advise on if you don't have the details yourself.


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## Mike_WI

*FW Beta 122819*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 122819
Posted 123119 
Small improvement to adaptive HDR DTM for rare occurrence of adapting too quickly. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


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## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> 
> 
> Beta 122819
> 
> Posted 123119
> 
> Small improvement to adaptive HDR DTM for rare occurrence of adapting too quickly.
> 
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> 
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware




a nice happy new year gift

Happy new year for every one 


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## thebland

bobof said:


> Yes, I get they are RS232, but what happens is any conversation over the USB interface with the Lumagen unit stops the reports being sent to the RS232 port, and so having talked to the Radiance over the USB interface with some calibration SW, or something else having polled the USB port, is one reason why RS232 masks stop working.
> 
> The report settings shouldn't have disengaged by themselves, unless you've done something like a factory reset?
> 
> It could be either "Full" or "Full V2" reports - they both have enough information for aspect control of a screen, and it would be down to the integrator to decide which (not sure if Stewart did the integration, or someone else via a control system).
> 
> It's the kind of thing the installer who put it in should be able to advise on if you don't have the details yourself.


Yes. We did a factory reset for a new calibration. But USB port is now empty and calibrator gone. . Will try this. Thanks!


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## appelz

bobof said:


> Yes, I get they are RS232, but what happens is any conversation over the USB interface with the Lumagen unit stops the reports being sent to the RS232 port, and so having talked to the Radiance over the USB interface with some calibration SW, or something else having polled the USB port, is one reason why RS232 masks stop working.
> 
> The report settings shouldn't have disengaged by themselves, unless you've done something like a factory reset?
> 
> It could be either "Full" or "Full V2" reports - they both have enough information for aspect control of a screen, and it would be down to the integrator to decide which (not sure if Stewart did the integration, or someone else via a control system).
> 
> It's the kind of thing the installer who put it in should be able to advise on if you don't have the details yourself.


I sent the info, but didn't hear back if it solved his issue. For anyone else reading along, or searching in the future

Menu > Other > I/O Setup > RS232 Setup > Report Mode Changes > Full V2

And, of course, Save after !


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## bobof

thebland said:


> Yes. We did a factory reset for a new calibration. But USB port is now empty and calibrator gone. . Will try this. Thanks!


In that case you will have lost whatever settings were there for the status reports and will need to reinstate them - I am pretty sure that factory fresh the Radiance doesn't send out any unsolicited reports on the serial port.

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## bearcat2002

Updated to the latest firmware and put in the parameters per Giomania. Have to say...AWESOME.


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## bobof

appelz said:


> I sent the info, but didn't hear back if it solved his issue. For anyone else reading along, or searching in the future
> 
> Menu > Other > I/O Setup > RS232 Setup > Report Mode Changes > Full V2
> 
> And, of course, Save after !


So do Stewart have a screen controller that "talks Lumagen" or was there an intermediate control system involved? I had to implement something myself for my Screen Research mask screen which uses Nice controls / motors.


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## appelz

bobof said:


> So do Stewart have a screen controller that "talks Lumagen" or was there an intermediate control system involved? I had to implement something myself for my Screen Research mask screen which uses Nice controls / motors.


In this case, the cinema is controlled by a Crestron control system, so that handles all of the interaction between sources, display, and screen masking. 

The Stewart motor control is by Converging Systems, and would be able to interface directly to the Lumagen though. They develop motor control and LED lighting control systems. 

https://www.convergingsystems.com/


----------



## dgkula

Does it mean anything that i am only able to perform updates in boot mode?
following the "normal" process documented in the instructions always results in errors.
thx


----------



## Gordon Fraser

dgkula said:


> Does it mean anything that i am only able to perform updates in boot mode?
> following the "normal" process documented in the instructions always results in errors.
> thx



No it's fine. Lumagen recommend boot mode version and had considered making that the only way you could do it.


----------



## A7mad78

dgkula said:


> Does it mean anything that i am only able to perform updates in boot mode?
> 
> following the "normal" process documented in the instructions always results in errors.
> 
> thx




alwyes do update in boot mode it help me to keep away from hdmi issue 


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## docrog

A little help, please.......... will *any* of the following video sources work *flawlessly* when connected to a Radiance Pro *9*GHz input card with an 18GHz output card: ATV4K, Roku Ultra, Sony X700 UHD player, TiVO Bolt? Will any *REQUIRE* an *18*GHZ input card? Thanks!!


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> A little help, please.......... will *any* of the following video sources work *flawlessly* when connected to a Radiance Pro *9*GHz input card with an 18GHz output card: ATV4K, Roku Ultra, Sony X700 UHD player, TiVO Bolt? Will any *REQUIRE* an *18*GHZ input card? Thanks!!


Why would you do a 9hz input and 18Hz output? You either want 18Hz input and 18Hz output or 18hz input and 9Hz output. With the second one, the Lumagen would dither down all sources above 9Hz and it is easier on your cables, but myself, I would go 18Hz all the way.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> Beta 122819
> Posted 123119
> Small improvement to adaptive HDR DTM for rare occurrence of adapting too quickly.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I had the 12/22/19 firmware, but just now updated to this 12/28/19 firmware. I was not seeing any problems with 12/22/19.


----------



## docrog

Mike Garrett said:


> Why would you do a 9hz input and 18Hz output? You either want 18Hz input and 18Hz output or 18hz input and 9Hz output. With the second one, the Lumagen would dither down all sources above 9Hz and it is easier on your cables, but myself, I would go 18Hz all the way.


There's a cost savings involved for the 9GHz input card, so I'm still trying to discover if any 2 of those sources will "work" with the 9GHz input (not "require" 18GHz). Unfortunately, no one has yet to answer that question. :frown:


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> There's a cost savings involved for the 9GHz input card, so I'm still trying to discover if any 2 of those sources will "work" with the 9GHz input (not "require" 18GHz). Unfortunately, no one has yet to answer that question. :frown:


I see a problem with streaming from ATV4K and Roku Ultra streaming of 4K, since that will be above 9Hz.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> A little help, please.......... will *any* of the following video sources work *flawlessly* when connected to a Radiance Pro *9*GHz input card with an 18GHz output card: ATV4K, Roku Ultra, Sony X700 UHD player, TiVO Bolt? Will any *REQUIRE* an *18*GHZ input card? Thanks!!


If you're doing HDR and need 60p then the answer is definitely no for the Sony UHD and ATV4k, as HDR10 formats are all 10 bit and you'll only be able to fit 8 bit at 60p into 9GHz. So it either won't do HDR or you'll be limited to 1080p or put into 8 bit mode (which isn't enough for sending an HDR signal with PQ gamma). Exactly which of those outcomes you get will be device dependent. 

The AppleTV doesn't really like being presented with a 9GHz output and trying to enable HDR from the AppleTV menu after factory reset will fail from what I've seen. There might be workarounds that might work or might not (such as just enabling HDR for 24p).

I don't know much about the Roku Ultra or Tivo bolt, but the ATV4K and X700 will certainly be being limited in their functionality in some way by being connected to a 9G input.


----------



## jh901

docrog said:


> There's a cost savings involved for the 9GHz input card, so I'm still trying to discover if any 2 of those sources will "work" with the 9GHz input (not "require" 18GHz). Unfortunately, no one has yet to answer that question. :frown:


What is the cost difference? Is it truly any more than a rounding error?

Hopefully, you've assessed the overall value of an external video processor for YOU and for YOUR home theater. How many thousands are you so desperate to part with?! What will you get from it? Are you getting advice privately that is best for YOU and for YOUR home theater? (my "advice" may not be taken sincerely, but hopefully someone is actually helping)

There is ALWAYS an upgrade. ALWAYS! Both video and especially audio. That's the main point. These threads can make it seem like a home theater is broken without doing this or doing that. Good grief, there's a few well-heeled who've got thousands into an A-lens!!

I can guarantee that $10,000 into proper power cables and A/C conditioning will absolutely revolutionize the surround sound for oh so many dozens around here who believe that they've heard it all, but it would only be worth it for a small percent. It wouldn't take but one of our influencers to discovery this truth themselves and then everyone would have to jump on board!


----------



## docrog

jh901 said:


> What is the cost difference? Is it truly any more than a rounding error?
> 
> Hopefully, you've assessed the overall value of an external video processor for YOU and for YOUR home theater. How many thousands are you so desperate to part with?! What will you get from it? Are you getting advice privately that is best for YOU and for YOUR home theater? (my "advice" may not be taken sincerely, but hopefully someone is actually helping)
> 
> There is ALWAYS an upgrade. ALWAYS! Both video and especially audio. That's the main point. These threads can make it seem like a home theater is broken without doing this or doing that. Good grief, there's a few well-heeled who've got thousands into an A-lens!!
> 
> I can guarantee that $10,000 into proper power cables and A/C conditioning will absolutely revolutionize the surround sound for oh so many dozens around here who believe that they've heard it all, but it would only be worth it for a small percent. It wouldn't take but one of our influencers to discovery this truth themselves and then everyone would have to jump on board!


I cannot understand why you continue to provide unsolicited harangues that have *ZERO* to do with responding to posts to which you've replied. If I had wanted to solicit opinions as to whether or not a Lumagen upgrade was appropriate in my specific situation, I would have phrased it in that way. Please do me the favor of restraining yourself from responding to any of my posts in the future unless you can provide helpful technical information regarding the question which has been posed.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> If you're doing HDR and need 60p then the answer is definitely no for the Sony UHD and ATV4k, as HDR10 formats are all 10 bit and you'll only be able to fit 8 bit at 60p into 9GHz. So it either won't do HDR or you'll be limited to 1080p or put into 8 bit mode (which isn't enough for sending an HDR signal with PQ gamma). Exactly which of those outcomes you get will be device dependent.
> 
> The AppleTV doesn't really like being presented with a 9GHz output and trying to enable HDR from the AppleTV menu after factory reset will fail from what I've seen. There might be workarounds that might work or might not (such as just enabling HDR for 24p).
> 
> I don't know much about the Roku Ultra or Tivo bolt, but the ATV4K and X700 will certainly be being limited in their functionality in some way by being connected to a 9G input.


Thanks, as always, for your helpful comments. I'll have 18GHz on the output side, irrespective of the input card. I'd previously read about this issue with the ATV4k but I was unaware that there would be an issue with the X700 if it was set to output 4:2:0 (other than possibly problematic for a small handful of 4K @60 discs; I'm not sure that it be affected by the main menu, as had been the case with the Samsung 8500 UHD player). Because of my cable provider, the TiVO bolt will be set to output a maximum HD resolution of 1080p. I have no way of determining the bandwidth necessary for HDR from the Roku Ultra.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks, as always, for your helpful comments. I'll have 18GHz on the output side, irrespective of the input card. I'd previously read about this issue with the ATV4k but I was unaware that there would be an issue with the X700 if it was set to output 4:2:0 (other than possibly problematic for a small handful of 4K @60 discs; I'm not sure that it be affected by the main menu, as had been the case with the Samsung 8500 UHD player). Because of my cable provider, the TiVO bolt will be set to output a maximum HD resolution of 1080p. I have no way of determining the bandwidth necessary for HDR from the Roku Ultra.


I think you need to further qualify your question. The Roku supports 60p HDR too I believe. If you're not planning on watching 60p HDR on the Roku it might work, if you want to watch 60p HDR it won't. Likewise for the Sony player, you weren't specific.

Assuming the new info (that you don't care about 60p) - although those players could work fine for 24p HDR 10bit on 9GHz - whether they do or not I couldn't be sure as I don't have either. 

So it sounds like if you're setting the Tivo box to 1080p you're looking for one other device to go on that input card with it? If I'm honest I'd be surprised if neither worked for 24p content, but perhaps someone who has them can advise further.


----------



## fatherom

Hi all, have a random (slightly silly) question about hdmi input switching speed...I hope you'll indulge me.

I downloaded some of the Dolby Atmos trailers that I like to show people when demonstrating my system. They are 24hz (not 23.98). When I play them on my Oppo 203, the video takes a while to switch and before I see anything (about 3-4 seconds into the file). I have the Oppo set to Source Direct.

I tried, temporarily, setting the Oppo to 1080p 24hz, but that didn't help, probably due to the fact that the files are exactly 24 (not 23.98).

And then the problem gets worse as one file ends and the next begins, because the Oppo is most likely switching resolution and frame rate between each file playing.

Is there any (even temporarily) way to lock the lumagen into a certain input and output resolution to eliminate the video switching?

Thanks all,

Chris


----------



## bobof

fatherom said:


> Hi all, have a random (slightly silly) question about hdmi input switching speed...I hope you'll indulge me.
> 
> I downloaded some of the Dolby Atmos trailers that I like to show people when demonstrating my system. They are 24hz (not 23.98). When I play them on my Oppo 203, the video takes a while to switch and before I see anything (about 3-4 seconds into the file). I have the Oppo set to Source Direct.
> 
> I tried, temporarily, setting the Oppo to 1080p 24hz, but that didn't help, probably due to the fact that the files are exactly 24 (not 23.98).
> 
> And then the problem gets worse as one file ends and the next begins, because the Oppo is most likely switching resolution and frame rate between each file playing.
> 
> Is there any (even temporarily) way to lock the lumagen into a certain input and output resolution to eliminate the video switching?


Turn off rate matching. It will not attempt to match exactly 23.976p to 24.000p and vice-versa - either of those should match to the other so you don't get a resync due to that change. You will incurr as a compromise a once per 42s frame drop.

Alternatively you can set output for all rates to be 59.94 (or 60p). You don't drop any frames fully that way (just get odd cadence of 3:2 mostly with ocassional 2:2) but you have the 3:2 motion artifacts.

You could make either of those setups a use of one of your memories and switch to it only for this content.


----------



## bferbrache

docrog said:


> A little help, please.......... will *any* of the following video sources work *flawlessly* when connected to a Radiance Pro *9*GHz input card with an 18GHz output card: ATV4K, Roku Ultra, Sony X700 UHD player, TiVO Bolt? Will any *REQUIRE* an *18*GHZ input card? Thanks!!


I bought my Radiance Pro 2nd hand with 9GHz input cards and 18GHz outputs. There are restrictions with this setup as described by the others who have already responded but I can watch 4K HDR source material at 24Hz, it's only an issue for me if I want to send 50/60Hz material through the Radiance. My Apple TV is setup to output 4K SDR 24Hz and auto switches to HDR 24Hz when watching an HDR movie or TV show. The Apple TV will not output 4K material at 50/60Hz with my Lumagen configuration as others have already stated.

I haven't tried any of your other sources so can't comment on them

Brian


----------



## fatherom

bobof said:


> Turn off rate matching. It will not attempt to match exactly 23.976p to 24.000p and vice-versa - either of those should match to the other so you don't get a resync due to that change. You will incurr as a compromise a once per 42s frame drop.
> 
> Alternatively you can set output for all rates to be 59.94 (or 60p). You don't drop any frames fully that way (just get odd cadence of 3:2 mostly with ocassional 2:2) but you have the 3:2 motion artifacts.
> 
> You could make either of those setups a use of one of your memories and switch to it only for this content.


Thanks, as an aside, when I go to the menu, it says "Rate Match Output - Forced off by 'Menu 087X'" and I cannot change the setting in the menu itself, even though a recent firmware says:

Beta 100119- _Posted 100819_ A small improvement to DTM (dynamic tone mapping) that improves some scenes with low light levels. A small fix for starting up test patterns via rs232. *Fix for the Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match menu not allowing changes to rate match setting. Couple other minor bugs fixed.*

EDIT: just realized when i first got the lumagen, my dealer had me do a "menu 0872". Should I undo that change?

EDIT 2: also realizing that this implies my rate matching was already off, so I don't know why I'm getting resyncs on these atmos demo files


----------



## docrog

bferbrache said:


> I bought my Radiance Pro 2nd hand with 9GHz input cards and 18GHz outputs. There are restrictions with this setup as described by the others who have already responded but I can watch 4K HDR source material at 24Hz, it's only an issue for me if I want to send 50/60Hz material through the Radiance. My Apple TV is setup to output 4K SDR 24Hz and auto switches to HDR 24Hz when watching an HDR movie or TV show. The Apple TV will not output 4K material at 50/60Hz with my Lumagen configuration as others have already stated. I haven't tried any of your other sources so can't comment on them. Brian


That's very helpful. I guess the question is: if the ATV4K (set to 4K SDR output) provides HDR @24, what type of ATV4K program material would normally be @60???


----------



## bobof

fatherom said:


> Thanks, as an aside, when I go to the menu, it says "Rate Match Output - Forced off by 'Menu 087X'" and I cannot change the setting in the menu itself, even though a recent firmware says:
> 
> Beta 100119- _Posted 100819_ A small improvement to DTM (dynamic tone mapping) that improves some scenes with low light levels. A small fix for starting up test patterns via rs232. *Fix for the Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match menu not allowing changes to rate match setting. Couple other minor bugs fixed.*
> 
> EDIT: just realized when i first got the lumagen, my dealer had me do a "menu 0872". Should I undo that change?
> 
> EDIT 2: also realizing that this implies my rate matching was already off, so I don't know why I'm getting resyncs on these atmos demo files


You can't avoid the resync at the input - the Lumagen is always going to see the input change from 23.976 to 24.000 and back. So there will always be some delay there.
Can you get to the bottom of what your Input and Output is doing for both the menus and the content?

Edit: I guess you could force the player to output everything at 59.94 for this content, including the menu. That might avoid the resync for you.


----------



## bferbrache

docrog said:


> That's very helpful. I guess the question is: if the ATV4K (set to 4K SDR output) provides HDR @24, what type of ATV4K program material would normally be @60???


Some streaming content from Amazon Prime and Netflix. The Grand Tour on Amazon was 4K 50Hz HDR i believe, some of the recent English Premier League football (soccer) coverage on Amazon was 50Hz HDR so I could only watch it in SDR. I'm sure there is some other stuff but I can't remember at the moment


----------



## rboster

jh901 said:


> What is the cost difference? Is it truly any more than a rounding error?
> 
> Hopefully, you've assessed the overall value of an external video processor for YOU and for YOUR home theater. How many thousands are you so desperate to part with?! What will you get from it? Are you getting advice privately that is best for YOU and for YOUR home theater? (my "advice" may not be taken sincerely, but hopefully someone is actually helping)
> 
> There is ALWAYS an upgrade. ALWAYS! Both video and especially audio. That's the main point. These threads can make it seem like a home theater is broken without doing this or doing that. Good grief, there's a few well-heeled who've got thousands into an A-lens!!
> 
> I can guarantee that $10,000 into proper power cables and A/C conditioning will absolutely revolutionize the surround sound for oh so many dozens around here who believe that they've heard it all, but it would only be worth it for a small percent. It wouldn't take but one of our influencers to discovery this truth themselves and then everyone would have to jump on board!


There is no need to offer your advice to this member, please move on.


----------



## fatherom

bobof said:


> You can't avoid the resync at the input - the Lumagen is always going to see the input change from 23.976 to 24.000 and back. So there will always be some delay there.
> Can you get to the bottom of what your Input and Output is doing for both the menus and the content?
> 
> Edit: I guess you could force the player to output everything at 59.94 for this content, including the menu. That might avoid the resync for you.


This is, admittedly, a first world problem for me. 

The Dolby Atmos demo disc's menu and content is all 24.000. If I use the full disc, I don't have issues, because there's no switching once the disc has launched.

However, I wanted to cherry-pick a few m2ts files and also download a movie trailer and put them all in a folder and have my Oppo 203 play them. The Oppo's main menu can be 23.976 or 59.94, but not 24.000. So when I play a file, or there's a transition from file-to-file, there's a resync.

The Rise Of Skywalker trailer I downloaded is a .mov file which is also 24.000. Basically, selecting that on the Oppo results in missing the first 3 seconds (or so) of the picture (you can hear the sound from the beginning).

I'm thinking there may be no way around this, due to the frame rate of the Oppo's main menu screen.

Chris


----------



## fatherom

bobof said:


> Edit: I guess you could force the player to output everything at 59.94 for this content, including the menu. That might avoid the resync for you.


Thanks for the assistance...tried that and it's close, but sometimes the Oppo is still cutting off the video at the very beginning. If I press |


----------



## bobof

fatherom said:


> This is, admittedly, a first world problem for me.
> 
> The Dolby Atmos demo disc's menu and content is all 24.000. If I use the full disc, I don't have issues, because there's no switching once the disc has launched.
> 
> However, I wanted to cherry-pick a few m2ts files and also download a movie trailer and put them all in a folder and have my Oppo 203 play them. The Oppo's main menu can be 23.976 or 59.94, but not 24.000. So when I play a file, or there's a transition from file-to-file, there's a resync.
> 
> The Rise Of Skywalker trailer I downloaded is a .mov file which is also 24.000. Basically, selecting that on the Oppo results in missing the first 3 seconds (or so) of the picture (you can hear the sound from the beginning).
> 
> I'm thinking there may be no way around this, due to the frame rate of the Oppo's main menu screen.
> 
> Chris


Are the clips with the issue long and / or subject to lipsync issues? If they're just Atmos promo trailers and not very long then you could perhaps just fiddle the video to be 23.976 instead of 24.000. I've not tried it myself, but you might be able to get away with just editing the metadata for the video - worth a try anyway. Edit: not sure it would work, you probably need to remux the video and audio and I'm not sure the free remuxers can do Atmos.


----------



## docrog

bferbrache said:


> Some streaming content from Amazon Prime and Netflix. The Grand Tour on Amazon was 4K 50Hz HDR i believe, some of the recent English Premier League football (soccer) coverage on Amazon was 50Hz HDR so I could only watch it in SDR. I'm sure there is some other stuff but I can't remember at the moment


Thanks, again. I'd really like to know at what rate the ATV4K streams movies from iTunes and the Roku Ultra streams movies from VUDU. Perhaps someone here might be able to definitively answer that question.


----------



## audioguy

jh901 said:


> What is the cost difference? Is it truly any more than a rounding error?
> 
> Hopefully, you've assessed the overall value of an external video processor for YOU and for YOUR home theater. How many thousands are you so desperate to part with?! What will you get from it? Are you getting advice privately that is best for YOU and for YOUR home theater? (my "advice" may not be taken sincerely, but hopefully someone is actually helping)
> 
> There is ALWAYS an upgrade. ALWAYS! Both video and especially audio. That's the main point. These threads can make it seem like a home theater is broken without doing this or doing that. Good grief, there's a few well-heeled who've got thousands into an A-lens!!
> 
> *I can guarantee that $10,000 into proper power cables and A/C conditioning will absolutely revolutionize the surround sound for oh so many dozens around here* who believe that they've heard it all, but it would only be worth it for a small percent. It wouldn't take but one of our influencers to discovery this truth themselves and then everyone would have to jump on board!


Since you seem bent on posting unsolicited advice, I would like to do so as well:


----------



## docrog

Tonight I changed the ATV4K to 4K SDR and it played an HDR iTunes movie in HDR, as was suggested above by @bferbrache. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (Amazon Video) and The Highwaymen (Netflix) also played in HDR at this same setting. As expected, You Tube HDR videos @60 played in Rec. 709, so I would plan to use the Roku Ultra set with HDR @60 for appropriate content. The ATV4K chroma was still set at 4:4:4, rather than 4:2:0, but I'm uncertain if there would have been any compatibility changes with the chroma set at 4:2:0. If what has previously been posted is correct, it would seem that I'll be able to connect the ATV4K SDR @60 as well as the TiVO into the 9GHz input card and the Roku Ultra and the Sony X700 into the 18GHz inputs in the eventuality that I'm unable to acceptably locate the Lumagen between my AVR and NX7. The 4240 shipped today and will be in my HT by Thursday of next week. I hope to provide some objective information once the Lumagen is formally calibrated by Craig Rounds later this month. Thanks to all!

EDIT: as expected, changing chroma from 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 (SDR @60) did *not* provide the ability to stream HDR @60 You Tube videos.


----------



## mindedc

docrog said:


> A little help, please.......... will *any* of the following video sources work *flawlessly* when connected to a Radiance Pro *9*GHz input card with an 18GHz output card: ATV4K, Roku Ultra, Sony X700 UHD player, TiVO Bolt? Will any *REQUIRE* an *18*GHZ input card? Thanks!!


The problem is not a problem of hardware or devices, the problem is Amazon, Netflix et. al. Most of these streaming services want to see 4K60HDR 4:2:2 (18Ghz) before enabling HDR, even for a 4K24PHDR movie that should only need 9ghz. You need 18ghz inputs to light up HDR in those apps. Sony bluray should be fine with the exception of a hand full of 4K60UHD titles. Cant comment on the tivo but OTA/Cable/Satellite do weird things. Perhaps someone else here is knowledgeable.

The Roku caused me severe problems with my JVC projector before I had a lumagen, your mileage may vary. I enjoy using it on the bedroom tv in 1080P. The Nvidia Shield has been much more stable from a 4K60P HDR 4:2:2 HDMI perspective.


----------



## mindedc

docrog said:


> Tonight I changed the ATV4K to 4K SDR and it played an HDR iTunes movie in HDR, as was suggested above by @bferbrache. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (Amazon Video) and The Highwaymen (Netflix) also played in HDR at this same setting. As expected, You Tube HDR videos @60 played in Rec. 709, so I would plan to use the Roku Ultra set with HDR @60 for appropriate content. The ATV4K chroma was still set at 4:4:4, rather than 4:2:0, but I'm uncertain if there would have been any compatibility changes with the chroma set at 4:2:0. If what has previously been posted is correct, it would seem that I'll be able to connect the ATV4K SDR @60 as well as the TiVO into the 9GHz input card and the Roku Ultra and the Sony X700 into the 18GHz inputs in the eventuality that I'm unable to acceptably locate the Lumagen between my AVR and NX7. The 4240 shipped today and will be in my HT by Thursday of next week. I hope to provide some objective information once the Lumagen is formally calibrated by Craig Rounds later this month. Thanks to all!


Looks like you're using your ATV for the streaming and it's working with 4K24 HDR, that seems like a good compromise. My roku experience was it needed 4K60 HDR 4:2:2 to enable HDR videos. The 4:4:4 chroma is almost exclusively computer, game, or user interface. 99% of recorded video does some sort of subsampling and would be 4:2:2 or 4:2:0.


----------



## mhafner

mhafner said:


> Yes, I did.
> Lumagen will send me a test version later.


The latest firmware is stable here so far.


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> The latest firmware is stable here so far.


Looks good for me too, though I didn't have any issue with previous version! Glad it is working for you anyway


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Tonight I changed the ATV4K to 4K SDR and it played an HDR iTunes movie in HDR, as was suggested above by @*bferbrache* . The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (Amazon Video) and The Highwaymen (Netflix) also played in HDR at this same setting. As expected, You Tube HDR videos @60 played in Rec. 709, so I would plan to use the Roku Ultra set with HDR @60 for appropriate content. The ATV4K chroma was still set at 4:4:4, rather than 4:2:0, but I'm uncertain if there would have been any compatibility changes with the chroma set at 4:2:0. If what has previously been posted is correct, it would seem that I'll be able to connect the ATV4K SDR @60 as well as the TiVO into the 9GHz input card and the Roku Ultra and the Sony X700 into the 18GHz inputs in the eventuality that I'm unable to acceptably locate the Lumagen between my AVR and NX7. The 4240 shipped today and will be in my HT by Thursday of next week. I hope to provide some objective information once the Lumagen is formally calibrated by Craig Rounds later this month. Thanks to all!



i set up bfebrache unit and i've done the same thing on another clients unit but i can't get it to work on my own 444X unit at home. I will test further when i get a moment.


----------



## A7mad78

The latest FW will make me to rewatch many of movies what an improvement made in this release  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

A7mad78 said:


> The latest FW will make me to rewatch many of movies what an improvement made in this release
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you saying that the Beta 122819 (posted 12/31) made a *significant* improvement over Beta 120419 (posted 12/21)? If so, could you please be more specific regarding your observations? Thanks!


----------



## A7mad78

docrog said:


> Are you saying that the Beta 122819 (posted 12/31) made a *significant* improvement over Beta 120419 (posted 12/21)? If so, could you please be more specific regarding your observations? Thanks!




The last one made small improvement but in general both of them was great addition from lumagen 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

A7mad78 said:


> The last one made small improvement but in general both of them was great addition from lumagen
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is there any possibility that you could better define what improvement the newest firmware update provided over the earlier December release? I anticipate that my 4240 will arrive next week having been flashed with the earlier December version and I'd like to know whether or not to attempt to update to the final 2019 version.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Is there any possibility that you could better define what improvement the newest firmware update provided over the earlier December release? I anticipate that my 4240 will arrive next week having been flashed with the earlier December version and I'd like to know whether or not to attempt to update to the final 2019 version.


Assuming no-one finds anything significant between now and when you receive your unit, there's probably no real good reason not to update. All you're doing is exposing yourself to finding the same issues that prompted the update being created in the first place...


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Is there any possibility that you could better define what improvement the newest firmware update provided over the earlier December release? I anticipate that my 4240 will arrive next week having been flashed with the earlier December version and I'd like to know whether or not to attempt to update to the final 2019 version.


Hello there,

I promise an answer to your question is in this, but I wanted to offer a small piece of advice.  I promise I won't be as blunt as someone else recently who came out of left-field with non related answers.

I would suggest not being so worried about the Lumagen, specifically...the firmware updates come very frequently; don't be afraid to update often (I do as soon as they're released). You can ALWAYS revert to a firmware if you don't like it.

Believe me, I scrutinize/agonize and nitpick this stuff to death in my home theater (noticing issues with video, etc). But having a Lumagen has caused me to be more experimental. Obviously, some people set these up and don't touch them, but I think part of the fun is messing around with different things and getting excited for better results, especially with new f/w releases.

Don't be afraid to experiment, try things out when you get your Lumagen in house...once you get it, you'll be able to test the various stuff you've been asking about (AppleTV, Roku, etc).

Hope this helps,

Chris


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I promise an answer to your question is in this, but I wanted to offer a small piece of advice.  I promise I won't be as blunt as someone else recently who came out of left-field with non related answers.
> 
> I would suggest not being so worried about the Lumagen, specifically...the firmware updates come very frequently; don't be afraid to update often (I do as soon as they're released). You can ALWAYS revert to a firmware if you don't like it.
> 
> Believe me, I scrutinize/agonize and nitpick this stuff to death in my home theater (noticing issues with video, etc). But having a Lumagen has caused me to be more experimental. Obviously, some people set these up and don't touch them, but I think part of the fun is messing around with different things and getting excited for better results, especially with new f/w releases.
> 
> Don't be afraid to experiment, try things out when you get your Lumagen in house...once you get it, you'll be able to test the various stuff you've been asking about (AppleTV, Roku, etc).
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Chris


Thanks, Chris (and to all of the other posters who have tried to help me understand the nuances of adding the Radiance Pro to my HT). Having owned (and witnessed the evolution of) front projectors for almost 40 years, I am truly stunned by the resolution and color accuracy of my NX7's HDR, especially since JVC released frame adaptive DTM. Never having seen the Lumagen "in action", it's extremely hard for me to grasp that what I'm about to witness is "in another league", as more than a few trusted posters have proclaimed. So, it's "experimental" enough just for me to purchase the Radiance Pro, without contemplating how I could further enhance the image versus seriously messing things up. FWIW, knowing that Chad B. pronounced my NX7 to appear to be a "golden sample" when he previously calibrated my PJ, Craig Rounds has warned me against expecting any appreciable improvement simply by adding the Lumagen to my video chain until he's completed his calibrations.

I've had very mixed experiences with firmware upgrades over the years (some disastrous, many "piece of cake"), but the cost of the Lumagen and obtaining high end calibration makes me somewhat leery of tampering with a device which, as of the early December update, seems to have come very close to "checking all of the boxes". I was assured that the 4240 would be flashed with the most recent firmware prior to shipping. The 4240 was shipped yesterday, so there's a reasonable chance that the Beta 123119 version will have already been installed. 

The Lumagen will arrive configured as a full 18GHz 4240 since my preference would be to position it between the AVR & PJ, requiring only 1 input card. My questions regarding the applicability of potentially adding a 9GHz input card (in case my hoped for video chain is untenable and I need to connect 4 sources directly to the Lumagen) is so that my calibrator/installer will be able to bring the correct card when he arrives later this month. I won't have the opportunity to test a 9GHz input card before then and I'm not aware of being able to "turn" the 18GHz input card into a 9GHz card to be able to test my devices before then.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> oh, I actually have a HDFury Vertex 4k60 that I set aside when I got the lumagen. I didn't realize I can do this. The projector though is already hooked up to the control4 via rs232 to the control4. can I just use a splitter? So then I program the hdfury to send a command when it sees HDR10? (i'll look into that, didn't realize you could program it)
> 
> But if I put the vertex after the lumagen or madvr before the projector and the HDR flag is set to off since i'm tone mapping from either the HDfury, wouldn't the Fury see the same thing regardless if the source was HDR or not since i'm tone mapping? sorry to take off topic, should i move this to hdfury discussion?


If you have a control4 system, maybe get the integrator back to finish the job...  . I jest, perhaps they didn't have all the gear at programming time.

You won't want to have two devices driving the projector via RS232, recipe for something getting broken.
If you have a control system, get it hooked up to the output of your Radiance Pro with status reports enabled (which can tell you all about the input formats such as HDR and 3D, plus aspect info and a host of other stuff) and have the control system drive the projector to the modes you desire based on your requirements.

I wouldn't bother with the HDfury device as you already have a control system; you're just making your HDMI chain even harder than usual to unpick when things don't quite work. The proper way to do this is as I outline.


----------



## mindedc

bobof said:


> If you have a control4 system, maybe get the integrator back to finish the job...  . I jest, perhaps they didn't have all the gear at programming time.
> 
> You won't want to have two devices driving the projector via RS232, recipe for something getting broken.
> If you have a control system, get it hooked up to the output of your Radiance Pro with status reports enabled (which can tell you all about the input formats such as HDR and 3D, plus aspect info and a host of other stuff) and have the control system drive the projector to the modes you desire based on your requirements.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the HDfury device as you already have a control system; you're just making your HDMI chain even harder than usual to unpick when things don't quite work. The proper way to do this is as I outline.


If your PJ has IP control you can use that in parallel to RS232. I'm also working on a Control 4 full bi-directional serial driver that would let you use the C4 system to make those changes. PM me if you're interested in the driver.


----------



## bobof

mindedc said:


> If your PJ has IP control you can use that in parallel to RS232. I'm also working on a Control 4 full bi-directional serial driver that would let you use the C4 system to make those changes. PM me if you're interested in the driver.


He was referring to a Vertex which only has RS232 for macro control (no IP) - so he'd have to move the Benq over to IP for general control from control 4, which would mean reconfiguring the Control4 system, and at that point the answer surely is "do it properly" without involving an HDFury device in the chain (parsing the Lumagen Status updates and acting on them appropriately).

In any case the use of his existing Vertex looks to be a moot discussion as it appears not to support custom strings - only JVC mode switching strings are supported. I certainly wouldn't recommend buying another device he doesn't already own to add into his chain to do this job when he has everything he needs (just not the appropriate programming).


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> If you have a control4 system, maybe get the integrator back to finish the job...  . I jest, perhaps they didn't have all the gear at programming time.
> 
> You won't want to have two devices driving the projector via RS232, recipe for something getting broken.
> If you have a control system, get it hooked up to the output of your Radiance Pro with status reports enabled (which can tell you all about the input formats such as HDR and 3D, plus aspect info and a host of other stuff) and have the control system drive the projector to the modes you desire based on your requirements.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the HDfury device as you already have a control system; you're just making your HDMI chain even harder than usual to unpick when things don't quite work. The proper way to do this is as I outline.



Thank you.. so helpful. clarification "Radiance pro with status reports enabled" is that a setting? and when you say "hooked up to out put of your radiance pro" would that be via RS232?

And I get it now. Have the control4 continuously check the input format on the radiance pro, and if the input format changes HDR, send change of picture setting command to projector, only if projetor is on. (since the appletv/nvidia/lumagen basically are always on (do you guys put them on standby? i usually just leave them on). and repeat for non HDR, for my other picture setting.

does the radiance pro have 1 specific field for control systems to check HDR vs. non -HDR? I guess I could also do it if it's outputting custom 1 (HDR) vs. custom 0 (non HDR) to make it easier as well.

thanks again and I'll see if i can get my installer to do this! should work, trying to think of edge cases where it won't.


----------



## scrowe

docrog said:


> I won't have the opportunity to test a 9GHz input card before then and I'm not aware of being able to "turn" the 18GHz input card into a 9GHz card to be able to test my devices before then.


Well in a way you can, you can limit to 9GHz bandwidth on an 18GHz input. Whether this ability allows you to scientifically verify what you want to achieve is another thing.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> Thank you.. so helpful. clarification "Radiance pro with status reports enabled" is that a setting? and when you say "hooked up to out put of your radiance pro" would that be via RS232?
> 
> And I get it now. Have the control4 continuously check the input format on the radiance pro, and if the input format changes HDR, send change of picture setting command to projector, only if projetor is on. (since the appletv/nvidia/lumagen basically are always on (do you guys put them on standby? i usually just leave them on). and repeat for non HDR, for my other picture setting.
> 
> does the radiance pro have 1 specific field for control systems to check HDR vs. non -HDR? I guess I could also do it if it's outputting custom 1 (HDR) vs. custom 0 (non HDR) to make it easier as well.
> 
> thanks again and I'll see if i can get my installer to do this! should work, trying to think of edge cases where it won't.


There is a setting that makes the Lumagen automatically send out status updates when something changes, over a serial port (could be either RS232 or USB, usually RS232 for control systems). The V2 status report format is the latest and has the most complete information, I'd recommend using that personally. An installer / programmer basically writes a parser to grab the important info out of the status reports, and then do appropriate actions in the system (move masks, change display modes, etc). You can see it reports HDR vs SDR (field F below) and crucially this is the Input range, not the output range (which might well be SDR if you're outputting SDR2020 or SDRP3 like I do). So it works perfectly to switch the display into a correct mode based on the content type.

You probably don't need to go to the effort of only sending control strings to the projector if it is on (I don't bother checking for that). Status reports are only sent out if the Lumagen is in on mode, and I tend to have my Lumagen off when the projector is off. But having said that if it's not a ton of extra work it's never a bad idea to program defensively.

The detail on the status update format is from here; this is the doc your installer needs to reference:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf
MENU→Other→I/O Setup→RS-232 Setup→Report mode changes 
This results in messages appearing at the serial port if the input format changes, or aspect ratio, or other info. The details of the report from the Lumagen are:


> Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited
> status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T,
> WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
> M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
> RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
> VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
> D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
> X= Input config number for current input resolution
> AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
> SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
> Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
> T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
> WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
> C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
> B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
> PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
> QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
> ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
> E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
> F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
> G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
> H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)
> NOTICE: When writing a parser for this command allow for future
> comma delimited fields being added at the end of the response


There are a couple of gotchas to watch out for around the use of the serial port:

From what I can tell internally the Lumagen has a single logical serial controller hooked up to both the USB and RS232 ports, and it switches which is active based on which port was the last to receive a message (controller -> Lumagen). So if you also use USB for calibration duties on the Lumagen, you'll find the reports on the RS232 serial port stop until you send a message on the RS232 port (or hard power cycle). As I do use both the RS232 port for control and the USB port for calibration duties I made my script for control periodically send out a speculative message on the RS232 to make sure it is always active. 
When trying to make a script work it might be tempting to fiddle with the serial port settings (which again, are shared between the RS232 and USB port). Bear in mind that calibration software often expects the serial / USB port to be set up a particular way, and if you make your control script use different serial port settings to your calibration software then you will have to change the serial port settings back and forth every time you calibrate, which is a proper ball-ache. So best to make sure your script / control system doesn't deviate from the standard serial port settings unless you have a very compelling reason to do so.


----------



## docrog

scrowe said:


> Well in a way you can, you can limit to 9GHz bandwidth on an 18GHz input. Whether this ability allows you to scientifically verify what you want to achieve is another thing.


That would be a most excellent option. However, I've read the user's manual and have been unable to find that capability. Could you possibly point me to the appropriate page/instruction? Thanks!!!


----------



## mindedc

bobof said:


> He was referring to a Vertex which only has RS232 for macro control (no IP) - so he'd have to move the Benq over to IP for general control from control 4, which would mean reconfiguring the Control4 system, and at that point the answer surely is "do it properly" without involving an HDFury device in the chain (parsing the Lumagen Status updates and acting on them appropriately).
> 
> In any case the use of his existing Vertex looks to be a moot discussion as it appears not to support custom strings - only JVC mode switching strings are supported. I certainly wouldn't recommend buying another device he doesn't already own to add into his chain to do this job when he has everything he needs (just not the appropriate programming).


I mentioned the IP control as a lot of the integration dealers get really squeamish about anything other than the most basic config possible. A lot of them won't even do serial much less IP control, they will put IR bugs all over gear that supports IP and serial drivers.... they see it as more reliable and in a way it is. If anything breaks you have a macro that powers everything off with a wattbox or similar PDU. I prefer having full control and comuniction as opposed to a "dumb" system. I can see them not wanting to have the control system interact based on changes from a video processor. Doing IP to the PJ and serial to the Vertex could be a compromise as he will rely upon his dealer to support the system if/when it breaks. I agree that having the control system make changes based upon what the lumagen is seeing and nixing the vertex entirely is the right way to do it, that's why I'm writing a driver and offered a copy.


----------



## mindedc

docrog said:


> That would be a most excellent option. However, I've read the user's manual and have been unable to find that capability. Could you possibly point me to the appropriate page/instruction? Thanks!!!


In the on screen menu it's under output somewhere. It literally says 9Ghz or 18Ghz. There is a page of quick functions in the manual in "Section 13" on page 42, that is another way to do it. If you have a good working config otherwise I would save it, experiment and be ready to reload your save if you screw it up. As I recall if using the quick commands you need to use the 0873 and then the 0872 to allow switching between 24/60P. The commands from the manual:

MENU 0872 Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate, with rate match off
MENU 0873 Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off


----------



## docrog

mindedc said:


> In the on screen menu it's under output somewhere. It literally says 9Ghz or 18Ghz. There is a page of quick functions in the manual in "Section 13" on page 42, that is another way to do it. If you have a good working config otherwise I would save it, experiment and be ready to reload your save if you screw it up. As I recall if using the quick commands you need to use the 0873 and then the 0872 to allow switching between 24/60P. The commands from the manual:
> 
> MENU 0872 Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate, with rate match off
> MENU 0873 Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off


Although I appreciate your assistance, those commands appear to reference setting the output (based on input rate), rather than setting the input of an 18GHz input card as 9GHz (which is what @scrowe was suggesting). Perhaps @jrp or @ChrisDeeringcan provide that clarification.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> That would be a most excellent option. However, I've read the user's manual and have been unable to find that capability. Could you possibly point me to the appropriate page/instruction? Thanks!!!


Menu -> Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Video EDID -> Video Limit and select 9GHz. 
It's described on Page 25 of the user guide (though the exact meaning of Video Limit isn't made clear). You can select Max (18GHz if you have an 18GHz card), 9GHz or 1080p as the Video Limit.

It doesn't make the input behave exactly as a 9GHz card (as they are quite different electronically) but it should make the Apple TV or other device think it is connected to the same sort of input as if it were on a 9GHz card.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Menu -> Input -> Options -> HDMI setup -> Video EDID -> Video Limit and select 9GHz.
> It's described on Page 25 of the user guide (though the exact meaning of Video Limit isn't made clear). You can select Max (18GHz if you have an 18GHz card), 9GHz or 1080p as the Video Limit.
> 
> It doesn't make the input behave exactly as a 9GHz card (as they are quite different electronically) but it should make the Apple TV or other device think it is connected to the same sort of input as if it were on a 9GHz card.


Much appreciated, as always!  I would never have imagined that "video limit" would have that meaning when in association with a grouping of video resolutions. I'll be sure to try that setting once my 4240 arrives next week. Would I be correct that it will revert to 18GHz on next power up if I haven't saved the 9GHz setting?


----------



## SSnarski

Loaded the new firmware Last night and was watching the 4K UHD Disc of Mission Impossible Fall Out - After initial update the lumagen came back on with dpad on 3 had to change it to 1 several times before the save actually kept it there - i believe i had changed this to "1" on the prior update and saved - but who knows? Picture quality was super - each update always brings a little more to the table - 
THE ISSUE - this is the first time ever i had audio drop out - this happened almost all the way through the movie when the helicopter scene started and when they crashed them on the rocks -
it happened twice - all audio just cut out and then resumed after a few seconds - 

I have never had an audio drop on any of the updates - i have had the lumagen over a year so there has been many updates during that period.
Just thought i would post to see if anyone else has experienced any audio dropouts.


----------



## A7mad78

SSnarski said:


> Loaded the new firmware Last night and was watching the 4K UHD Disc of Mission Impossible Fall Out - After initial update the lumagen came back on with dpad on 3 had to change it to 1 several times before the save actually kept it there - i believe i had changed this to "1" on the prior update and saved - but who knows? Picture quality was super - each update always brings a little more to the table -
> 
> THE ISSUE - this is the first time ever i had audio drop out - this happened almost all the way through the movie when the helicopter scene started and when they crashed them on the rocks -
> 
> it happened twice - all audio just cut out and then resumed after a few seconds -
> 
> 
> 
> I have never had an audio drop on any of the updates - i have had the lumagen over a year so there has been many updates during that period.
> 
> Just thought i would post to see if anyone else has experienced any audio dropouts.




I got this also with new update more than once 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Much appreciated, as always!  I would never have imagined that "video limit" would have that meaning when in association with a grouping of video resolutions. I'll be sure to try that setting once my 4240 arrives next week. Would I be correct that it will revert to 18GHz on next power up if I haven't saved the 9GHz setting?


Yes, if you do that it won't save the setting (like every other setting in the menu I believe EXCEPT the quick menu commands for changing the 18G output microcode version, they "save" immediately as they operate using another mechanism). You can also make the change in an alternate memory so you can switch easily between 9G and 18G (or 1080P if you want to disable 4K upscaling in a device like the AppleTV that doesn't have source direct).

I believe on making the change in the menus it toggles the hotplug pin on the HDMI port and makes the connected HDMI source device think the cable has been pulled and a new device with a different EDID is connected. For the purpose of your testing of various devices you may want to power cycle the connected source device (at the mains). Some devices don't pick up new EDIDs in operation reliably. I think Samsung UHD players are in that category but there may be others, and not doing this risks you getting false results.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Yes, if you do that it won't save the setting (like every other setting in the menu I believe EXCEPT the quick menu commands for changing the 18G output microcode version, they "save" immediately as they operate using another mechanism). You can also make the change in an alternate memory so you can switch easily between 9G and 18G (or 1080P if you want to disable 4K upscaling in a device like the AppleTV that doesn't have source direct).
> 
> I believe on making the change in the menus it toggles the hotplug pin on the HDMI port and makes the connected HDMI source device think the cable has been pulled and a new device with a different EDID is connected. For the purpose of your testing of various devices you may want to power cycle the connected source device (at the mains). Some devices don't pick up new EDIDs in operation reliably. I think Samsung UHD players are in that category but there may be others, and not doing this risks you getting false results.


Thanks for that further explanation. It sounds a bit intimidating, but I'll give it a whirl if placing the Pro after the AVR is untenable. 

What's difficult for me to understand is exactly *what* ill effects have been known to occur if the Pro is *AFTER* a state-of-the-art AVR's pass through. Vague condemnations have been posted in this thread, without any concrete examples. In the user's manual there 2 (equally vague) sentences on p.14 (section 4: Video Configuration Examples): 1. Receiver after Radiance: "...guarantees that the receiver does not *degrade* the video" and 2. Receiver in front of Radiance: "Note that some AVRs* add artifacts* to the video". Won't someone please clarify the meanings/implications of "degrade" and "add artifacts" and the likelihood of their occurrence when no degradation or artifacts were apparent when my current RX-A3080 -> JVC NX7 video chain was professionally calibrated?????


----------



## mindedc

docrog said:


> Thanks for that further explanation. It sounds a bit intimidating, but I'll give it a whirl if placing the Pro after the AVR is untenable.
> 
> What's difficult for me to understand is exactly *what* ill effects have been known to occur if the Pro is *AFTER* a state-of-the-art AVR's pass through. Vague condemnations have been posted in this thread, without any concrete examples. In the user's manual there 2 (equally vague) sentences on p.14 (section 4: Video Configuration Examples): 1. Receiver after Radiance: "...guarantees that the receiver does not *degrade* the video" and 2. Receiver in front of Radiance: "Note that some AVRs* add artifacts* to the video". Won't someone please clarify the meanings/implications of "degrade" and "add artifacts" and the likelihood of their occurrence when no degradation or artifacts were apparent when my current RX-A3080 -> JVC NX7 video chain was professionally calibrated?????


This is exactly where I was when I got my pro and I initially set it up like that. I've never seen degradation or other issues with my Marantz 7702MKII processor while playing video despite that it's an early implementation of 18Ghz. I think one of the potential issues is a lot of processor/receivers do their own upscaling, they certainly unpack the video to apply a volume/mute overlay etc... they could be introducing artifacts. I will say that on the flip side I do now like having the lumagen video path side car to the audio path for several reasons. One is that it allows the lumagen to completely manage the HDMI starts/restarts etc... without an extra element in the way. I'm running an "old busted" RS540U, not the "new hotness" NX7 and my re-sync times are dramatically better with only the lumagen in the path. NX7 may re-sync faster but I am unfortunately (and jealously  not familiar. There were also some weird glitchy things happening when syncing/resyncing with the marantz in the path. Once video was playing it was fine. It also made configuring some per source features easier on the Lumagen as its tied to a particular physical interface. Yes, there are logical interface settings but it's was easy to apply a setting or two to a physical. The other thing it's helped with is *audio* artifacts on switching. The lumagen seems to always keep the audio stream active and not turn it on/off which some of my sources do creating a lag on gui sounds. That wasn't a huge issue as I've lived with it for quite a while, but a nice to have.

From a personal experience I would say it's been more of a nicer setup for me sidecar than it having been a fatal issue inline. I am a single datapoint though and hopefully there are more people that will respond.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks for that further explanation. It sounds a bit intimidating, but I'll give it a whirl if placing the Pro after the AVR is untenable.
> 
> What's difficult for me to understand is exactly *what* ill effects have been known to occur if the Pro is *AFTER* a state-of-the-art AVR's pass through. Vague condemnations have been posted in this thread, without any concrete examples. In the user's manual there 2 (equally vague) sentences on p.14 (section 4: Video Configuration Examples): 1. Receiver after Radiance: "...guarantees that the receiver does not *degrade* the video" and 2. Receiver in front of Radiance: "Note that some AVRs* add artifacts* to the video". Won't someone please clarify the meanings/implications of "degrade" and "add artifacts" and the likelihood of their occurrence when no degradation or artifacts were apparent when my current RX-A3080 -> JVC NX7 video chain was professionally calibrated?????


The only specific example I can offer is relating to HDMI dropouts from my Denon AVR out into the Lumagen (since sold). However Spears and Munsil had this to offer on the subject:
http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio-item/getting-started-with-the-high-definition-benchmark-2/


> Important note: If you are running the HDMI signal through a receiver or switcher and find problems, especially with clipping, you should try taking the receiver or switcher out of the chain and connecting the player directly to the display to see if that fixes the problem. There are several receivers, switchers, and video processors that will clip the signal passing through them, even if they aren’t doing any processing of the image. Also check the web sites of the manufacturer of your receiver or switcher to see if there is a new firmware, as this might correct some or all of the errors.


Looking at this pragmatically; the first reality is that there are lots of ways HDMI passing through a product can go wrong. There can be undesired extra colour space conversions or chroma upsampling / downsampling happening, there can be scaling to defeat, there can even be image processing controls / CMS in some AV receivers. It might not be possible to make an AV receiver look like a transparent piece of wire for your HDMI video.

The second reality is that figuring out exactly how an HDMI device behaves is a long job, doing it properly needs thousands to tens of thousands of dollars of equipment and a lot of time to go through all the signal permutations possible, and the experience to know how to diagnose what is going wrong. But I can tell you that when even folk making pattern generators for the calibration industry - such as Murideo's 6G product - have managed to have errors in their bit accuracy of their outputs, that it is certainly not far fetched at all for there to be issues of accuracy in the HDMI output of a consumer bit of equipment like an AVR.

I can tell you that my AppleTV "works fine" via my Arcam AVR into my Lumagen; however I haven't gone into the detail of knowing if anything undesireable is happening at the hands of the Arcam - which has the capability to be futzxing with the video as it can generate an Onscreen Display as a video overlay. I'm doing that video / audio route out of necessity as the AppleTV has audio issues routed via the Lumagen, so the investigation is to an extent moot (I'm not in the mood for replacing the AVR). I could run all my devices through the AVR, but seeing as I have a setup I know presents a pristine route (avoiding the AVR video circuits), versus one of unknown quality that would cost significant effort to validate - why wouldn't I just go via the Lumagen instead?

And that will be part of the issue you will face in trying to get specifics here - most folk just won't bother finding out. They'll either hook it up and say "looks OK to me" at which point you don't know what their frame of reference is ($50,000 of analyzer or Calibrated Eyeball Mk1) or they'll go with the recommendation and avoid the video passing through the AVR. There is a good recommendation which has a sensible basis and the effort required to prove an alternative is a clean route is inordinately high for the payback.


----------



## docrog

mindedc said:


> This is exactly where I was when I got my pro and I initially set it up like that. I've never seen degradation or other issues with my Marantz 7702MKII processor while playing video despite that it's an early implementation of 18Ghz. I think one of the potential issues is a lot of processor/receivers do their own upscaling, they certainly unpack the video to apply a volume/mute overlay etc... they could be introducing artifacts. I will say that on the flip side I do now like having the lumagen video path side car to the audio path for several reasons. One is that it allows the lumagen to completely manage the HDMI starts/restarts etc... without an extra element in the way. I'm running an "old busted" RS540U, not the "new hotness" NX7 and my re-sync times are dramatically better with only the lumagen in the path. NX7 may re-sync faster but I am unfortunately (and jealously  not familiar. There were also some weird glitchy things happening when syncing/resyncing with the marantz in the path. Once video was playing it was fine. It also made configuring some per source features easier on the Lumagen as its tied to a particular physical interface. Yes, there are logical interface settings but it's was easy to apply a setting or two to a physical. The other thing it's helped with is *audio* artifacts on switching. The lumagen seems to always keep the audio stream active and not turn it on/off which some of my sources do creating a lag on gui sounds. That wasn't a huge issue as I've lived with it for quite a while, but a nice to have.
> 
> From a personal experience I would say it's been more of a nicer setup for me sidecar than it having been a fatal issue inline. I am a single datapoint though and hopefully there are more people that will respond.


Much obliged for your comments! Although sync times for the NX7 are *MUCH* improved compared to my previous RS500, I've become accustomed to putting content on pause (once I hear audio) until sync occurs. I'm not aware that, when in full pass through mode, the RX-A3080 performs *any * upscaling or other processing, but your point about potential influence from video overlays (for volume & muting, GUI, etc.) is certainly valid. I'm probably missing a connect the dots here, but, with the Lumagen after the AVR, isn't the Lumagen then performing its processing without further pathway degradation? I would have thought that connecting the sources to the Lumagen which then sends both audio & video to the AVR (previously suggested as a possibility) would lead to more potential issues, as the AVR could subsequently affect what the Lumagen had already processed.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Looking at this pragmatically; the first reality is that there are lots of ways HDMI passing through a product can go wrong. There can be undesired extra colour space conversions or chroma upsampling / downsampling happening, there can be scaling to defeat, there can even be image processing controls / CMS in some AV receivers. It might not be possible to make an AV receiver look like a transparent piece of wire for your HDMI video.... And that will be part of the issue you will face in trying to get specifics here - most folk just won't bother finding out. They'll either hook it up and say "looks OK to me" at which point you don't know what their frame of reference is ($50,000 of analyzer or Calibrated Eyeball Mk1) or they'll go with the recommendation and avoid the video passing through the AVR.


Thanks, as always, for your insightful observations & comments. You're entirely correct that, merely because Yamaha stipulates that no processing is occurring when the AVR is in pass through mode, I'm not able to determine whether or not color space, chroma, or scaling manipulations are taking place. I don't know whether or not Craig Rounds' calibrating equipment will be able to determine what the AVR may be adding to the video path when he calibrates the Lumagen later this month.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I'm probably missing a connect the dots here, but, with the Lumagen after the AVR, isn't the Lumagen then performing its processing without further pathway degradation? I would have thought that connecting the sources to the Lumagen which then sends both audio & video to the AVR (previously suggested as a possibility) would lead to more potential issues, as the AVR could subsequently affect what the Lumagen had already processed.


The recommended connection scheme is with the AVR just receiving HDMI for the purpose of decoding the audio. It doesn't then pass it on to the display; the display HDMI comes direct from the Lumagen. See here:









This does lose access to the AVR OSD unless you also make arrangements for that via another HDMI to the display, or some other mechanism, but keeps video away from the AVR completely.

If you have source devices that have dual HDMI outputs then you can also bypass the Lumagen for audio, by connecting direct to the AVR from the source audio only ports. Makes system setup a bit trickier but can bring some benefits.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> The recommended connection scheme is with the AVR just receiving HDMI for the purpose of decoding the audio. It doesn't then pass it on to the display; the display HDMI comes direct from the Lumagen. This does lose access to the AVR OSD unless you also make arrangements for that via another HDMI to the display, or some other mechanism, but keeps video away from the AVR completely.


Yes, I've read the user manual and I'm aware of the recommended configuration diagrams. However, in post 6329, @jrp indicated that, considering my goal was to maintain the AVR's GUI, it was an acceptable configuration to have both the audio & video from the Lumagen's output #2 go to a single AVR input. His feeling was that the Lumagen was more capable as a switching device: 

If you want the AVR/audio-processor in-line with the video, I suggest you put it after the Radiance Pro and use output 2 on a 424X model for 18 GHz output.

- The Pro works to minimize output restarts, and you can set the Pro to nearly eliminate them for video. If the Pro output does not restart then the AVR/audio-processor does not need to restart the HDMI connection on either its input or output. The Pro has an internal frame buffer, and especially for 4k most AVRs/audio-processor do not. The frame buffer helps reduce the number of output restarts that have to trickle through the chain. Audio does need to restart on a audio change but if the video is not changing this is faster than if you have the AVR first in the chain.

- I believe the Pro output is more "compatible" than many AVR/audio-processors. At least the Pro output is better at driving AVR inputs than AVRs are at driving the Pro.

My confusion remains because,* if *my AVR's output is possibly capable of successfully switching the Lumagen, why it would be considered acceptable (post 6329) to have Sources -> Lumagen -> AVR (which may or may not fiddle with color space, chroma, etc.) -> NX7 *but not* Sources ->AVR (which may or may not fiddle with color space, chroma, etc.) -> Lumagen -> NX7. It seems to me that, if the AVR can be acceptably located in the video pathway, having a properly calibrated Lumagen be able to correct for any prior AVR fiddling would yield a more optimal video outcome than allowing the AVR to fiddle with what the Lumagen has already processed.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Yes, I've read the user manual and I'm aware of the recommended configuration diagrams. However, in post 6329, @jrp indicated that, considering my goal was to maintain the AVR's GUI, it was an acceptable configuration to have both the audio & video from the Lumagen's output #2 go to a single AVR input. His feeling was that the Lumagen was more capable as a switching device:
> 
> If you want the AVR/audio-processor in-line with the video, I suggest you put it after the Radiance Pro and use output 2 on a 424X model for 18 GHz output.
> 
> - The Pro works to minimize output restarts, and you can set the Pro to nearly eliminate them for video. If the Pro output does not restart then the AVR/audio-processor does not need to restart the HDMI connection on either its input or output. The Pro has an internal frame buffer, and especially for 4k most AVRs/audio-processor do not. The frame buffer helps reduce the number of output restarts that have to trickle through the chain. Audio does need to restart on a audio change but if the video is not changing this is faster than if you have the AVR first in the chain.
> 
> - I believe the Pro output is more "compatible" than many AVR/audio-processors. At least the Pro output is better at driving AVR inputs than AVRs are at driving the Pro.
> 
> My confusion remains because,* if *my AVR's output is possibly capable of successfully switching the Lumagen, why it would be considered acceptable (post 6329) to have Sources -> Lumagen -> AVR (which may or may not fiddle with color space, chroma, etc.) -> NX7 *but not* Sources ->AVR (which may or may not fiddle with color space, chroma, etc.) -> Lumagen -> NX7. It seems to me that, if the AVR can be acceptably located in the video pathway, having a properly calibrated Lumagen be able to correct for any prior AVR fiddling would yield a more optimal video outcome than allowing the AVR to fiddle with what the Lumagen has already processed.


Sorry, you were replying to someone who doesn't have video via their AVR it seems, it wasn't clear you were spring-boarding off that to a different config. 

I you thought there were significant chromatic (colour) errors creeping in from the AVR (really, really hope not!l), you would want the Lumagen before the AVR. Putting it before the AVR would mean the patch generator used for calibration would be affected by the errors, you would measure those errors on screen, and then the 3DLUT would apply a correction to reverse them. If you put Lumagen after the AVR you'd have to use an external pattern generator into the AVR input to calibrate all the way through the video chain.

Jim's reasons above for preferring the AVR after the Lumagen are different, and related to switching performance it seems. That might be the case, but I'd personally respectfully disagree with that way of setting it up if your source is an AppleTV playing HDR (due to audio dropouts on some content), or a Samsung HDR disc spinner (due to occasional audio muting on chapter changes). They're both issues you are exposed to with audio via the Lumagen (confirmed with Lumagen support).

Anyway, I think "you pays your money and takes your choice". There are pros and cons to all options. You have the option of getting a pro to do the whole setup and then it's their problem if any of it doesn't work as it should... . Sounds like you've got it on order anyway and it will be with you imminently, let us know how you get on with whichever way you decide to set it up.


----------



## Speakender

ChadB calibrated my projector and Radiance Pro in March 2019.

I’ve installed the latest Radiance Pro firmware. Are there projector / processor settings I should consider changing to take better advantage of the latest DTM enhancements?

For example, when viewing HDR content, the projector’s laser is set to 95 (out of 100); while it’s set to 15 for SDR content.

With DTM, would I be able to set the laser closer to 15 for HDR content (and achieve similar results)?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> The only specific example I can offer is relating to HDMI dropouts from my Denon AVR out into the Lumagen (since sold). However Spears and Munsil had this to offer on the subject:
> http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio-item/getting-started-with-the-high-definition-benchmark-2/
> 
> 
> Looking at this pragmatically; the first reality is that there are lots of ways HDMI passing through a product can go wrong. There can be undesired extra colour space conversions or chroma upsampling / downsampling happening, there can be scaling to defeat, there can even be image processing controls / CMS in some AV receivers. It might not be possible to make an AV receiver look like a transparent piece of wire for your HDMI video.
> 
> The second reality is that figuring out exactly how an HDMI device behaves is a long job, doing it properly needs thousands to tens of thousands of dollars of equipment and a lot of time to go through all the signal permutations possible, and the experience to know how to diagnose what is going wrong. But I can tell you that when even folk making pattern generators for the calibration industry - such as Murideo's 6G product - have managed to have errors in their bit accuracy of their outputs, that it is certainly not far fetched at all for there to be issues of accuracy in the HDMI output of a consumer bit of equipment like an AVR.
> 
> I can tell you that my AppleTV "works fine" via my Arcam AVR into my Lumagen; however I haven't gone into the detail of knowing if anything undesireable is happening at the hands of the Arcam - which has the capability to be futzxing with the video as it can generate an Onscreen Display as a video overlay. I'm doing that video / audio route out of necessity as the AppleTV has audio issues routed via the Lumagen, so the investigation is to an extent moot (I'm not in the mood for replacing the AVR). I could run all my devices through the AVR, but seeing as I have a setup I know presents a pristine route (avoiding the AVR video circuits), versus one of unknown quality that would cost significant effort to validate - why wouldn't I just go via the Lumagen instead?
> 
> And that will be part of the issue you will face in trying to get specifics here - most folk just won't bother finding out. They'll either hook it up and say "looks OK to me" at which point you don't know what their frame of reference is ($50,000 of analyzer or Calibrated Eyeball Mk1) or they'll go with the recommendation and avoid the video passing through the AVR. There is a good recommendation which has a sensible basis and the effort required to prove an alternative is a clean route is inordinately high for the payback.


I originally had AppleTV/Roku/oppo/chromecast ->Arcam (HDMi bypass) -> BenQ Projector but noticed the handshake slowness of netflix particularly (more on roku vs apple when switching between HDR and non HDR content, and especially when frame rate adjusted or between devices. It would be 10 seconds or more. Now I made a ton of changes since then, but got 2 more 18GBps slots on the Lumagen thru Kris Dearing and for the price it was worth it as I think the HDMI handoffs are just a bit better as the inputs are already essentially "active" on the lumagen in terms of being sync'd for HDCP etc. downside is I lost the OSD from the arcam to tell me volume, but I just set max volume on it via receiver so it can't be blown out, and now getting used to volume based on hearing not visual (i was always a 70, but find myself now at 75 etc) but other downside is I don't know if i'm in atmos mode or not unless I run upstairs to the rack to look.

i've now switched 90% of my viewing to the NVidia Pro Shield and it's MUCH better than appletv or roku in terms of rarely blanking out on HDMI stuff when switching between netflix content etc, and really fast for the HDR non HDR switches. my 10% is Disney starwars atmos since only appletv has it right now. As soon as Nvidia supports it, i'll be all Nvidia, and bonus is Nvidia shield is also a chromecast so we throw the oculus up there . turns out i didn't need the 2 extra inputs after all.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Anyway, I think "you pays your money and takes your choice". There are pros and cons to all options. You have the option of getting a pro to do the whole setup and then it's their problem if any of it doesn't work as it should... . Sounds like you've got it on order anyway and it will be with you imminently, let us know how you get on with whichever way you decide to set it up.


FYI, I'm not aware of any video errors/issues related to my AVR. I'll have the opportunity to audition multiple configurations and can only hope that I'll find some mechanism that allows me to continue to have access to my AVR's GUI since I access it on a regular basis. I understand that my fall back position (if configured as Sources -> Lumagen -> NX7; eliminating the AVR from the video stream) would be by using the AVR video out to the NX7 as a second input. I'm not sure how much sync time there would be (in switching PJ inputs to & from HDR source material to an SDR AVR home screen) and whether that would be a tolerable long term situation.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Speakender said:


> ChadB calibrated my projector and Radiance Pro in March 2019.
> 
> I’ve installed the latest Radiance Pro firmware. Are there projector / processor settings I should consider changing to take better advantage of the latest DTM enhancements?
> 
> For example, when viewing HDR content, the projector’s laser is set to 95 (out of 100); while it’s set to 15 for SDR content.
> 
> With DTM, would I be able to set the laser closer to 15 for HDR content (and achieve similar results)?



What projector is this? and how many lumens /nits? Isn't t dim at 15/100? my LK990 is 860 LUX at 100% ,480 if I turn off brilliant color mode (which Kris had recommended)
I'm trying out the ecosmart mode on the projector which apparently is 40%~100% of Normal mode.(0% under Full Black),


----------



## Speakender

gadgetfreaky said:


> What projector is this? and how many lumens /nits? Isn't t dim at 15/100? my LK990 is 860 LUX at 100% ,480 if I turn off brilliant color mode (which Kris had recommended)
> I'm trying out the ecosmart mode on the projector which apparently is 40%~100% of Normal mode.(0% under Full Black),


My projector is a Sony VPL-VW885ES. It’s ~2,000 lumens and 50-200 nits (depending on the content / settings).

SDR content is not dim with the laser set to 15.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> I originally had AppleTV/Roku/oppo/chromecast ->Arcam (HDMi bypass) -> BenQ Projector but noticed the handshake slowness of netflix particularly (more on roku vs apple when switching between HDR and non HDR content, and especially when frame rate adjusted or between devices. It would be 10 seconds or more. Now I made a ton of changes since then, but got 2 more 18GBps slots on the Lumagen thru Kris Dearing and for the price it was worth it as I think the HDMI handoffs are just a bit better as the inputs are already essentially "active" on the lumagen in terms of being sync'd for HDCP etc. downside is I lost the OSD from the arcam to tell me volume, but I just set max volume on it via receiver so it can't be blown out, and now getting used to volume based on hearing not visual (i was always a 70, but find myself now at 75 etc) but other downside is I don't know if i'm in atmos mode or not unless I run upstairs to the rack to look.
> 
> i've now switched 90% of my viewing to the NVidia Pro Shield and it's MUCH better than appletv or roku in terms of rarely blanking out on HDMI stuff when switching between netflix content etc, and really fast for the HDR non HDR switches. my 10% is Disney starwars atmos since only appletv has it right now. As soon as Nvidia supports it, i'll be all Nvidia, and bonus is Nvidia shield is also a chromecast so we throw the oculus up there . turns out i didn't need the 2 extra inputs after all.


If you are handy with scripting or have a good installer you could get a rudimentary OSD overlay for your Arcam going on via the Lumagen - you can make an overlay of a couple of lines of text. Could be enough to show you the level and mode, for example. 

Am following the 2019 Shield with interest as I'd really like to have working Atmos and correct framerates; however the framerate stuff is as far as I can see annoying (no support other than manual switching via a popup, or a 3rd party app), and there is all the junk over wrong colourspaces being used at launch - is that resolved yet or do you still need a hotfix?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> I have been away from AVS for a while. We are about to do another release that has significant improvement for DTM. So time for me to check in.
> 
> This release improves the "Adaptive" part of DTM (call it ADTM). We had some "pumping" issues with ADTM that are now resolved. There are also a number of other improvements. Some apply to many scenes and some are more specific to a small class of scene types. I have been surprised at how Patrick has been able to continue to improve on the already excellent scene detection, and scene adaptive function (the ADTM). I think you will be excited by the improvements.
> 
> We have also had a few people (more than a few?) messing about with the DTM parameters and getting themselves in a bad state. So, this release will also have a simplified DTM user interface in "User Mode." If you insist on more "rope," the current interface will still be available in Service Mode. Just be aware that we believe the defaults are the best settings and changes you make to parameters not shown in User Mode will likely degrade the image rather than improve it.
> 
> We are simplifying the DTM parameter menu in User Mode. The DTM parameter menu (left arrow) will be:
> 
> Low Ratio: 0 to 63 (Default = 31)
> DynPad: 0 to 7 (Default = 3)
> DeSat: 0 to 15 (default = 4)
> Global Max Light: 100 to 9990 (default = 500)
> 
> You need to set the Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu (or it is now shown in the DTM parameter menu as Global Max Light). I am recommending five (5) times the measured light in nits. This multiple is a trade off between brighter scenes (lower Max Light), and color saturation (higher Max Light). I am considering more testing using a multiple of four (4) times measured maximum light, but not there yet. Also, I have talked to some who prefer a multiple of 3 to 4. This is a personal choice and can also depend on if you have a lower light output projector and want a brighter image.
> 
> Note that if you have values other than the above defaults in your unit, they will not be changed by the update. You would need to reset the HDR parameters (each input and input memory or change one and copy to the others. Then do a Save).
> 
> Some have asked why the Max Light is not set to 1X measured light in nits. The "1X measured light" setting is in the mix, but for "dark scenes" as it needs to be. We will show the effective Low Light Max in this menu. You can look a the "effective Max Light" (adjusted by Low Ratio) and adjust until it is about 1X measured light (or your preferred multiple for low light scenes).
> 
> Note that, as shown, the new default for "Low Ratio" is 31 (currently 15). Using 15 still works well, but with the improvements in the DTM we are seeing that you can raise this value (reducing the dark scene effective max light and raising brightness) without seeing clipping. Setting the Low-set ratio to 31 will result in roughly “1X” measured light (assuming Max Light is in the 5x range) for dark scenes. We have exended the Low Ratio range. It was -31 to 31, and now is 0 to 63. We eliminated negative numbers as they do not make sense to use, but were still showing up in some questions I received.
> 
> We are also changing the default DynPad to 3 (currently 6). Again this is because the improvement allow a brighter image without showing clipping. With a setting of 3 we do not expect there to be visible clipping. However, even a settings of 2, or 1, may have few scenes where there might be a bit of clipping of highlights. However the overall image will be brighter. I am currently using DynPad = 3 but experimenting with settings of 1 and 2. So you might want to try 1, 2, and 3 for DynPad to see which you prefer.
> 
> DeSat (de-saturation) has not changed. We left it in for User Mode since some like to have a different setting for this.
> 
> Note: The ADTM parameters are per-input and per-input-memory, except for "Global Max Light." It is "global" to all inputs and input memories that use the currently active CMS (which is typically CMS1 for HDR). For example if the current CMS for HDR is CMS1, this Global Max Light is the same value as CMS1->HDR Mapping->HDR Mapping->Max Light.
> 
> Note: If you want the settings (excepting Max Light) to apply to other inputs or input memories, use the "Input Copy" command to copy to the other inputs and/or memories. As always, make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.
> 
> There are a few other additions to the user interface. For example you can now program the right arrow to bring up test patterns rather than the Darbee menu, or program the up/down arrows to step through Input Aspect Ratio selections. This release fixes an issue using NLS with "Auto Aspect" that was recently reported.
> 
> These improvements should be in a release in the next day or two.


I updated firmware, including the newest. There is a scene in Ad Astra at 1:40:05 right before you here "ahh" as his dad floats off the planet above him that flickers or pumps darker then brighter for a second if dPad is set to 3, or 2. At 1 I don't get it.

So does that mean I should have mine set at 1?

also, I'm measuring 860 lux which I believe is 380 nits with my 1.4 screen. If I multiply by 5 that's max 1900. Ratio at 31 =486 not 1x as you mentioned above, I have to have ratio at 33 to get 395. What does raising ratio/lowering it do? if i want blacker blacks, do I do a lower ratio and have a higher a maxLight? thus 31 is blacker blacks than 33?

Pic looks amazing btw. I'm now playing around with smarteco on my BenQ LK990.. Given I'm a rec709 projector but super bright which I need for my room daytime viewing., it's been a ton of tweaking and tuning, thank you btw @Krisdearing. He's amazing.
still haven't decided if I should leave the brilliant color on or off (kris recommended off, but it does drop my nits to 213)


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky:

For Lux to nits divide lux / Pi = lux / 3.14159, as shown here: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html

So 860 Lux = 274 nits. This is a bright image so I suggest using the lower end of the "4 to 5 times nits" multiple. I recommend you try a Max Light setting of 1000. With a low Ratio of 31 (new default) this gives you a "Dark-scene Max Light" of 256 (shows on "left arrow" menu when you select Low Ratio), which is near the 1:1 ratio to measured nits we are recommending for dark scenes.

I too recommend "brilliant color" off. It gives you more white but at the expense of color saturation. I think you will appreciate the richer colors off having it off, and even if it cuts your light output from 274 nits down to (my estimate based on your post) 154 nits, that is still a very bright image for a projector. For comparison I have 88 nits on in the Lumagen Demo Theater on a 14 foot diagonal, Studiotek 130, using a RS4500 and a Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. Although I would certainly like more brightness for HDR, the picture is stunning with the Radiance Pro ADTM at 88 nits. In addition, the lower white level *may* mean a better black level. Having the best black level for HDR is critical, and IMO more important than brighter whites. If you go this way, I suggest a Max Light = around 650 (you can now select this in the left-arrow menu), and leave the Low Ratio = 31 (gives a "Dark-scene Max Light" of 166). I think you would be happy with the 154 nits, the better color fidelity, and potentially better black level, for HDR content.


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on connection order:

We recommend the Pro do the switching and then send output 1 to the AVR/audio-processor, and the highest numbered output to the projector/TV. We believe this gives the best and mot reliable switching. However, we realize that some want to see the AVR OSD.

For those who want the AVR/audio-processor in the chain, we recommend you still use the Radiance Pro for switching, and then send both audio and video to the AVR/audio-processor, and then the output from the AVR/audio-processor to the projector/TV. This gets you the AVR OSD, but also the Pro can reduce the times the video needs to restart. For example, you can set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020, and then set the Pro to always output 60 Hertz to eliminate the video restart in most cases. Not everyone wants to watch moves at 60 Hertz, but even if you set the Pro to output 24 Hertz movies at 24, the Pro can still reduce the number of output restarts that need to trickle through the AVR and to the projector.

We recommend against the AVR/audio-processor doing the switching. This does work for a number of our customers, but it can also cause issues.


----------



## jrp

Concerning audio dropouts after an update:

I can say from experience that if you do an update and then get any dropouts, this comes down to the HDMI cabling. The different releases can have slightly different output jitters. The Pro has some of the lowest jitter measurements of any HDMI device I know about, but the low jitter does vary from release to release by a small margin. However, this should not affect either audio or the video. If it does check your cables:

- Make sure you did not loosen a HDMI plug while updating. It happens. I did this to myself on the latest release. I had a drop out in video and then discovered a plug slightly moved out. Plugged it back in and no more dropouts.

- Make sure all passive HDMI cables are 2 to 3 meters long and 18 GHz Certified. Very important. Cables under 2 meter can cause issues with the signal being "too hot" and audio goes first due to the IMO poor decision that it is carried as a non-coherent data stream on top of video. I solve issues in the field all the time by getting people to replace their 1 meter cables with 2 meter cables.

- I recommend the Tributaries UHDP passive HDMI cables, but there are a few other good HDMI cables available. Getting people to switch to the UHDP has solved issues on a number of occasions.

- Might even help to clean the contacts. Pull each end of every HDMI cable half way out and push back in five times. This cleans the contacts and better forms the contacts together. This little trick has resolved a lot of issues in various systems.


----------



## jrp

I have updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set to reflect the 120419 and later releases and have attached the slides to this post.

With the latest release initial setup is simplified. I tried to capture all the important points to consider, but let me know if you have questions, or you find I missed something (here or by email to support at lumagen.com. No PM's please).

I again included how to adjust your black level. There is also some information on 1D and 3D LUT calibration for the CMS used for HDR specifically for calibrators.

I hope the new slide set is useful to everyone.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> gadgetfreaky:
> 
> For Lux to nits divide lux / Pi = lux / 3.14159, as shown here: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html
> 
> So 860 Lux = 274 nits. This is a bright image so I suggest using the lower end of the "4 to 5 times nits" multiple. I recommend you try a Max Light setting of 1000. With a low Ratio of 31 (new default) this gives you a "Dark-scene Max Light" of 256 (shows on "left arrow" menu when you select Low Ratio), which is near the 1:1 ratio to measured nits we are recommending for dark scenes.
> 
> I too recommend "brilliant color" off. It gives you more white but at the expense of color saturation. I think you will appreciate the richer colors off having it off, and even if it cuts your light output from 274 nits down to (my estimate based on your post) 154 nits, that is still a very bright image for a projector. For comparison I have 88 nits on in the Lumagen Demo Theater on a 14 foot diagonal, Studiotek 130, using a RS4500 and a Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. Although I would certainly like more brightness for HDR, the picture is stunning with the Radiance Pro ADTM at 88 nits. In addition, the lower white level *may* mean a better black level. Having the best black level for HDR is critical, and IMO more important than brighter whites. If you go this way, I suggest a Max Light = around 650 (you can now select this in the left-arrow menu), and leave the Low Ratio = 31 (gives a "Dark-scene Max Light" of 166). I think you would be happy with the 154 nits, the better color fidelity, and potentially better black level, for HDR content.


I have a screen innovations black diamond 1.4 gain screen so I multiplied my 274x 1.4. is that right? That would 382nits? the screen innovations also is a ALR screen so does make things even brighter (some tiny sparkles if you stare at whites). 

would you do the same for non-HDR stuff, that is turn off brilliant color?


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> I have a screen innovations black diamond 1.4 gain screen so I multiplied my 274x 1.4. is that right? That would 382nits? the screen innovations also is a ALR screen so does make things even brighter (some tiny sparkles if you stare at whites).
> 
> would you do the same for non-HDR stuff, that is turn off brilliant color?


Your post said you measured 860 lux. This needs to be measured off the screen as it appears you did. Any "gain" in the screen is part of the measurement. So you would not multiply by the gain after your measure.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> Concerning audio dropouts after an update:
> 
> 
> 
> I can say from experience that if you do an update and then get any dropouts, this comes down to the HDMI cabling. The different releases can have slightly different output jitters. The Pro has some of the lowest jitter measurements of any HDMI device I know about, but the low jitter does vary from release to release by a small margin. However, this should not affect either audio or the video. If it does check your cables:
> 
> 
> 
> - Make sure you did not loosen a HDMI plug while updating. It happens. I did this to myself on the latest release. I had a drop out in video and then discovered a plug slightly moved out. Plugged it back in and no more dropouts.
> 
> 
> 
> - Make sure all passive HDMI cables are 2 to 3 meters long and 18 GHz Certified. Very important. Cables under 2 meter can cause issues with the signal being "too hot" and audio goes first due to the IMO poor decision that it is carried as a non-coherent data stream on top of video. I solve issues in the field all the time by getting people to replace their 1 meter cables with 2 meter cables.
> 
> 
> 
> - I recommend the Tributaries UHDP passive HDMI cables, but there are a few other good HDMI cables available. Getting people to switch to the UHDP has solved issues on a number of occasions.
> 
> 
> 
> - Might even help to clean the contacts. Pull each end of every HDMI cable half way out and push back in five times. This cleans the contacts and better forms the contacts together. This little trick has resolved a lot of issues in various systems.




Thx jim for all what u done with all the team 

If i update the pro with boot mode which i always do Do I need to unplug all the hdmi cable from the pro?

Thx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgkula

SSnarski said:


> Loaded the new firmware Last night and was watching the 4K UHD Disc of Mission Impossible Fall Out - After initial update the lumagen came back on with dpad on 3 had to change it to 1 several times before the save actually kept it there - i believe i had changed this to "1" on the prior update and saved - but who knows? Picture quality was super - each update always brings a little more to the table -


I just watched this movie again tonight - love these movies and the orchestral soundtracks! I had one instance during the Paris motorcycle chase where the video signal switched from HDR > SDR > HDR so with the JVC projector this meant black screen and lens motor running for 60 secs during the change. Only issue and after the movie I tried to reproduce it in the same spot and wasnt successful.


----------



## msleb

*Audio and video dropouts, and a Directv bug and possible workaround*

I’ve had a few, brief audio dropouts also (beta 122819, posted 123119). It’s happened on several sources and on SDR/ HDR, as well as 1080 and 4K sources. No change with any HDMI cables. And, per Jim’s suggestion, all removed/reinserted and all in recommended length. Prior to most recent release it’s never happened in 2 years. 

In addition, I seem to have a new problem with video dropouts when I am on AppleTV source—>Netflix. Specifically, when Netflix’s (annoying, and not user changeable) that is when the video drops out for 5-10 seconds, almost as if the input was changing SDR —>HDR—>SDR, but the Lumagen status menu (which can’t be engaged visibly during the blackout) doesn’t seem to show any such change. To be clear, once I start a Netflix show, this behavior disappears and playback is fine.

Finally, I realize the Jim and Patrick have identified an issue with Directv, but the description is too cryptic for me (“ Added a small option to help an issue with DIrectTV not setting 2020 flag off after leaving an HDR selection -- find this option under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Type: 2020 Flag Use“)

In my case, I hadn’t touched this new setting, so my setting was “normal.” However, while watching DTV tonight (NFL playoffs) I noticed that input was SDR2020, as was output, despite it being a 1080i SDR source. I then went to a 4K HDR show about Yellowstone (visually awesome btw) and it still (correctly, now) revealed HDR input and output.

I then tried to use this new menu option, and toggled it (I’m no longer in theater, but I believe the opposite setting is HDR flag on). That didn’t fix my problem. I then realized I could change my DTV input under “options” to change REC2020 to off or to on instead of auto, and assign one memory to each, in refer to manually call for the proper setting, but then it dawned on me— and here is where I am hoping to either help others in my situation OR be told of the error of my thinking—that the ONLY programming (OTA, Directv, Oppo, Streaming boxes etc) that is ever HDR is 4K stuff (yes, I realize not all 4K is HDR, but all HDR is 4K), and that all 1080/720/480 sources are REC709, so I went to the Lumagen Output settings, and pointed all 1080/720/480 inputs to output my SDR CMS, regardless of whether DTV was (erroneously) flagging input as SDR 2020.

I then tested various sources with SDR and HDR and everything seems to be as it should- SDR stuff like NFL is unconverted from 1080i to 4K and is output as REC709, 4k HDR stuff on DTV, like Yellowstone, is in SDR 2020 (is HDR in SDR container) and same holds true for SDR/HDR programs in AppleTV. 

Is my workaround reasonable?


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> For example, you can set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace to SDR2020, and then set the Pro to always output 60 Hertz to eliminate the video restart in most cases. Not everyone wants to watch moves at 60 Hertz, but even if you set the Pro to output 24 Hertz movies at 24, the Pro can still reduce the number of output restarts that need to trickle through the AVR and to the projector.


But wouldn´t that cause judder while watching 24Hertz content?


----------



## SSnarski

jrp said:


> Concerning audio dropouts after an update:
> 
> I can say from experience that if you do an update and then get any dropouts, this comes down to the HDMI cabling. The different releases can have slightly different output jitters. The Pro has some of the lowest jitter measurements of any HDMI device I know about, but the low jitter does vary from release to release by a small margin. However, this should not affect either audio or the video. If it does check your cables:
> 
> - Make sure you did not loosen a HDMI plug while updating. It happens. I did this to myself on the latest release. I had a drop out in video and then discovered a plug slightly moved out. Plugged it back in and no more dropouts.
> 
> - Make sure all passive HDMI cables are 2 to 3 meters long and 18 GHz Certified. Very important. Cables under 2 meter can cause issues with the signal being "too hot" and audio goes first due to the IMO poor decision that it is carried as a non-coherent data stream on top of video. I solve issues in the field all the time by getting people to replace their 1 meter cables with 2 meter cables.
> 
> - I recommend the Tributaries UHDP passive HDMI cables, but there are a few other good HDMI cables available. Getting people to switch to the UHDP has solved issues on a number of occasions.
> 
> - Might even help to clean the contacts. Pull each end of every HDMI cable half way out and push back in five times. This cleans the contacts and better forms the contacts together. This little trick has resolved a lot of issues in various systems.


Jim,
I will go through and check all the HDMI cables and make sure nothing got loosened up in the system - Just strange that i have never had a video or audio dropout in my system until I loaded the most recent update on the Lumagen - There has been numerous updates since my purchase of the lumagen - 

Keep up the good work - Jumping into the cost of the LRP at first was questionable - Needed for the RS4500/DCR lens combo for what i was trying to achieve, but after the purchase, all the support, and what all the updates have achieved - WORTH IT!


----------



## dgkula

As cables are super critical to our experience with the Lumagen, i wanted to ask if anyone has checked out the 8k ruipro cable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081SFN2FG?th=1


----------



## mindedc

dgkula said:


> As cables are super critical to our experience with the Lumagen, i wanted to ask if anyone has checked out the 8k ruipro cable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081SFN2FG?th=1


No, but I do have the 18Ghz ruipro and was having problems getting 4K60HDR...even had lumagen set to use 9ghz. I finally remembered that I had a 90 degree HDMI adapter on the back of the projector to reduce strain on the ruipro and pulling that eliminated my problem at 18Ghz.... It works perfectly now...


----------



## mindedc

Eventidal said:


> But wouldn´t that cause judder while watching 24Hertz content?


That's why JRP said "you can". If you prefer you can enable 24P output. Apparently some people are:

A. Insensitive to the Judder
B. Used to to Judder because it's so widespread
C. More bothered by re-sync delay than Judder.

Most of my family fit in one of the above categories. It drives me crazy, I pass 24P to my projector and live with the re-sync delay (JVC projector). 

That's the nice thing about the Lumagen, you have choices.


----------



## Eventidal

mindedc said:


> That's why JRP said "you can". If you prefer you can enable 24P output. Apparently some people are:
> 
> A. Insensitive to the Judder
> B. Used to to Judder because it's so widespread
> C. More bothered by re-sync delay than Judder.
> 
> Most of my family fit in one of the above categories. It drives me crazy, I pass 24P to my projector and live with the re-sync delay (JVC projector).
> 
> That's the nice thing about the Lumagen, you have choices.


I am just shocked that a videophile like Jim recommends this. 

How can you be insensitive to judder ? 

Not a choice to me!


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I am just shocked that a videophile like Jim recommends this.
> 
> How can you be insensitive to judder ?
> 
> Not a choice to me!


I must say it has always surprised me, but I think there are probably more folk than not who are either cadence-blind (either physiologically or due to brainwashing by US TV distribution) or it bothers them less than the delays their projector introduces on switching. In any case, I guess it is nice to have the option.

I'm amazed more folk aren't up in arms over the current situation with Apple TV and Netflix - where most of their new content drops a frame completely every 42s due to 24.000p content vs 23.976p playout; but the issue barely gets any traction other than with the Native Framerate Brotherhood...!


----------



## Vinturbo

Kris Deering said:


> Sometimes this is in the source itself. I remember another member here commenting on this before and gave me some examples, and they all did it even without any DTM on because the source had variation in it. You may also get some variability from any dynamic contrast function you have engaged on your display (if you are using any). If you have frame adaptive off, you shouldn't see any variability from the Lumagen. You may see some on occasion with it on, as it is a dynamic function and some scenes may cause issues. That is the nature of a dynamic system, it can never be perfect.


hi Kriss, I checked without DTM. The overall change of light of the scene is not present on the disc. The film is Casino Royale, precisely at 12:09 minutes. There is a very rapid change of scene immediately afterwards. the situation does not change by deactivating or activating the adaptive DTM


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> hi Kriss, I checked without DTM. The overall change of light of the scene is not present on the disc. The film is Casino Royale, precisely at 12:09 minutes. There is a very rapid change of scene immediately afterwards. the situation does not change by deactivating or activating the adaptive DTM


I can look at it today. But what you said makes no sense, if the artifact is the same with DTM on or off, then it is not the DTM doing it, that typically means it is the encode.


----------



## Vinturbo

Kris Deering said:


> I can look at it today. But what you said makes no sense, if the artifact is the same with DTM on or off, then it is not the DTM doing it, that typically means it is the encode.


The wrong light change appears only with the DTM. adaptive activated and not activated nothing changes. Without DTM there is no change of light. In fact, it's not a disk problem


----------



## Kris Deering

Eventidal said:


> But wouldn´t that cause judder while watching 24Hertz content?


It can. Some are more sensitive to it than others. I have had a few customers that leave the output at 60p for ALL input sources so they never have resynchs and they don't seem to mind. If resynchs really bother the customer, it is an option and they can experiment and see if the change in frame rate bothers them (again, some may not even notice!). Always good to have options, certainly not a requirement.


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> The wrong light change appears only with the DTM. adaptive activated and not activated nothing changes. Without DTM there is no change of light. In fact, it's not a disk problem


Gotcha. So frame adaptive has no effect but DTM does. I guess I misunderstood. Again, I will test today and see if I can re-create.


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can look at it today. But what you said makes no sense, if the artifact is the same with DTM on or off, then it is not the DTM doing it, that typically means it is the encode.
> 
> 
> 
> The wrong light change appears only with the DTM. adaptive activated and not activated nothing changes. Without DTM there is no change of light. In fact, it's not a disk problem
Click to expand...

I can confirm the jump as well. Last for many a second, but there. I let Lumagen know. They’ll look at it. Thanks!


----------



## jrp

Thought I would clear up a miss-quote.

- I do *not* recommend watching 23.98 Hertz movies at 59.94 Hertz. I always watch these movies at 23.98 Hertz, because I am sensitive to judder.

- The Pro does *allow* someone to output all content at 59.94 Hertz. Yes, many people are so used to watching movies on their TVs that they have desensitized themselves to the additional judder. When I talk to dealers I ask if their client cares more about switching speed, or watching 23.98 Hertz moves at 23.98. You would be surprised at how many of their clients do not care about the judder, but do care about their projector taking 20 or 30 seconds to sync on an input change or starting/stopping a movie.

The Radiance Pro has many features to satisfy the different desires of our various customers. Just because it's available does not mean I recommend it. I do make sure that customers know the options, but this is not a recommendation.


----------



## jrp

A7mad78 said:


> Thx jim for all what u done with all the team
> 
> If i update the pro with boot mode which i always do Do I need to unplug all the hdmi cable from the pro?


When doing a Boot Mode Update, the microprocessor is only working on the update and does not process any interrupts. So you should be fine leaving the HDMI cables connected.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> When doing a Boot Mode Update, the microprocessor is only working on the update and does not process any interrupts. So you should be fine leaving the HDMI cables connected.




Thx Jim 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

SSnarski said:


> Jim,
> I will go through and check all the HDMI cables and make sure nothing got loosened up in the system - Just strange that i have never had a video or audio dropout in my system until I loaded the most recent update on the Lumagen - There has been numerous updates since my purchase of the lumagen -
> 
> Keep up the good work - Jumping into the cost of the LRP at first was questionable - Needed for the RS4500/DCR lens combo for what i was trying to achieve, but after the purchase, all the support, and what all the updates have achieved - WORTH IT!


Thanks for the kind words.

If you know you have good HDMI cables (for example the Tributaries UHDP for 2 meter passives and the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" hybrid-fiber for the long run form the Pro to the projector/TV), then it may not be the cables. I did not think to mention it, but the FPGA synthesis tools, while excellent, are not perfect. In addition every FPGA is slightly different than every other FPGA. So while not common, there is a small chance your FPGA does not "like" the 122819 release.

If you have an 18 GHz output, try both the new 18 GHz output microcode (MENU 0851) and the original (MENU 0850). No need to Save after these and the Pro will reboot if you ask for the version not already loaded. To a degree these have different HDMI characteristics. Not all products work with the newer 18 GHz output microcode (for example Sony projectors), but if it works with you projector/TV there will be slightly less jitter on the Pro output. Note that the Pro output has very low jitter with either original or new 18 GHz output microcode.

Also, we have seen the configuration affect the output jitter. You may want to experiment with (first download your config to a PC) resetting the Pro configuration to Factory and doing the minimum amount of setup to see if you still have drop outs. I have had at least one case where resetting and starting over fixed dropout issues (although this was with video).

It is possible having Rate-match = Off will affect the audio. The command I recommend to set the output rate (MENU 0873 for 9 GHz and MENU 0874 for 18 GHz, and then either MENU 0872 to add 24 Hertz at 3840 wide or MENU 0877 to add 24 Hertz at 4096 wide) turns Rate Match off. 

Also turning Genlock on will increase the jitter slightly because the Pro's internal PLL need to make fine adjustments to keep the output in sync with the source timing. If you have Genlock turned on try with it turned off. 

Do my unplug/re-plug trick on the HDMI cables to see if it helps, but if not you might have to wait for a new release that also has a new FPGA to see if it helps.


----------



## jrp

Here is a Tech Tip on reducing movie start times for some sources.

I have two output profiles. MEMB follows the input rate (23.98 or 59.94) for all sources, and MEMA follows the input rate for DirecTV and Roku, but only outputs 23.98 for the Kaleidescape Strato or Oppo 203. For the Oppo I also have the OSD output at 24 Hertz. Can't do this with the Strato unfortunately.

When I select the Oppo or Strato, I pay the projector re-sync time switching to 23.98. However, when I start a movie on the Oppo or Strato there is no Radiance Pro output rate change (or restart since I output both SDR and HDR content as SDR2020) from Radiance Pro to the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. If I choose 59.94 Hertz content from either, I then manually press MEMB to change the output of the Pro for the Oppo or Strato to match content. Since most of the time I am watching (and/or testing with) movies this speeds things up.

If this is interesting to you, look at the manual for the Output Setup Command. You can select an output mode specific to an input and/or memory. A bit of setup but this works out well for me.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> Your post said you measured 860 lux. This needs to be measured off the screen as it appears you did. Any "gain" in the screen is part of the measurement. So you would not multiply by the gain after your measure.


when you say " off the screen" how do you mean? I held a light meter (android app on my pixel) at the screen pointed at the projector, so it was how much light the screen was getting. or are you saying i need to point the sensor at the screen and catch light as it reflects off of the screen?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> 
> If you know you have good HDMI cables (for example the Tributaries UHDP for 2 meter passives and the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" hybrid-fiber for the long run form the Pro to the projector/TV), then it may not be the cables. I did not think to mention it, but the FPGA synthesis tools, while excellent, are not perfect. In addition every FPGA is slightly different than every other FPGA. So while not common, there is a small chance your FPGA does not "like" the 122819 release.
> 
> If you have an 18 GHz output, try both the new 18 GHz output microcode (MENU 0851) and the original (MENU 0850). No need to Save after these and the Pro will reboot if you ask for the version not already loaded. To a degree these have different HDMI characteristics. Not all products work with the newer 18 GHz output microcode (for example Sony projectors), but if it works with you projector/TV there will be slightly less jitter on the Pro output. Note that the Pro output has very low jitter with either original or new 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> Also, we have seen the configuration affect the output jitter. You may want to experiment with (first download your config to a PC) resetting the Pro configuration to Factory and doing the minimum amount of setup to see if you still have drop outs. I have had at least one case where resetting and starting over fixed dropout issues (although this was with video).
> 
> It is possible having Rate-match = Off will affect the audio. The command I recommend to set the output rate (MENU 0873 for 9 GHz and MENU 0874 for 18 GHz, and then either MENU 0872 to add 24 Hertz at 3840 wide or MENU 0877 to add 24 Hertz at 4096 wide) turns Rate Match off.
> 
> Also turning Genlock on will increase the jitter slightly because the Pro's internal PLL need to make fine adjustments to keep the output in sync with the source timing. If you have Genlock turned on try with it turned off.
> 
> Do my unplug/re-plug trick on the HDMI cables to see if it helps, but if not you might have to wait for a new release that also has a new FPGA to see if it helps.



Can you please explain what Genlock does and what setting it should be ? I've always wondered on the lumagen


----------



## SSnarski

jrp said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> 
> If you know you have good HDMI cables (for example the Tributaries UHDP for 2 meter passives and the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" hybrid-fiber for the long run form the Pro to the projector/TV), then it may not be the cables. I did not think to mention it, but the FPGA synthesis tools, while excellent, are not perfect. In addition every FPGA is slightly different than every other FPGA. So while not common, there is a small chance your FPGA does not "like" the 122819 release.
> 
> If you have an 18 GHz output, try both the new 18 GHz output microcode (MENU 0851) and the original (MENU 0850). No need to Save after these and the Pro will reboot if you ask for the version not already loaded. To a degree these have different HDMI characteristics. Not all products work with the newer 18 GHz output microcode (for example Sony projectors), but if it works with you projector/TV there will be slightly less jitter on the Pro output. Note that the Pro output has very low jitter with either original or new 18 GHz output microcode.
> 
> Also, we have seen the configuration affect the output jitter. You may want to experiment with (first download your config to a PC) resetting the Pro configuration to Factory and doing the minimum amount of setup to see if you still have drop outs. I have had at least one case where resetting and starting over fixed dropout issues (although this was with video).
> 
> It is possible having Rate-match = Off will affect the audio. The command I recommend to set the output rate (MENU 0873 for 9 GHz and MENU 0874 for 18 GHz, and then either MENU 0872 to add 24 Hertz at 3840 wide or MENU 0877 to add 24 Hertz at 4096 wide) turns Rate Match off.
> 
> Also turning Genlock on will increase the jitter slightly because the Pro's internal PLL need to make fine adjustments to keep the output in sync with the source timing. If you have Genlock turned on try with it turned off.
> 
> Do my unplug/re-plug trick on the HDMI cables to see if it helps, but if not you might have to wait for a new release that also has a new FPGA to see if it helps.





Jim,
Thank you for thinking this through -

I think you hit the nail on the head with the first explanation - what i found is that the fiber optic cable was not completely seated in the hdmi adapter that runs from the Lumagen Pro to the projector - although not the hdmi out going from the Lumagen Pro to the Receiver for audio it was still causing the issue i am 100% sure. Was watching Ad Astra 4k Disc and early in the movie there was a dropout - once i tracked the issue down there was no more audio drops. Waste of a couple of hours - the movie was terrible - luckily i did not purchase this one i borrowed it from a co-worker that did -


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I have two output profiles. MEMB follows the input rate (23.98 or 59.94) for all sources, and MEMA follows the input rate for DirecTV and Roku, but only outputs 23.98 for the Kaleidescape Strato or Oppo 203. For the Oppo I also have the OSD output at 24 Hertz. Can't do this with the Strato unfortunately.


Could you please clarify how to set MEMA (input & output rates) for Roku? Also, if your MEMB follows input rates "for all (other?) sources", what have you set as the output rate for those sources? Thanks!


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Here is a Tech Tip on reducing movie start times for some sources.
> 
> I have two output profiles. MEMB follows the input rate (23.98 or 59.94) for all sources, and MEMA follows the input rate for DirecTV and Roku, but only outputs 23.98 for the Kaleidescape Strato or Oppo 203. *For the Oppo I also have the OSD output at 24 Hertz.* Can't do this with the Strato unfortunately.
> 
> When I select the Oppo or Strato, I pay the projector re-sync time switching to 23.98. However, when I start a movie on the Oppo or Strato there is no Radiance Pro output rate change (or restart since I output both SDR and HDR content as SDR2020) from Radiance Pro to the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. If I choose 59.94 Hertz content from either, I then manually press MEMB to change the output of the Pro for the Oppo or Strato to match content. Since most of the time I am watching (and/or testing with) movies this speeds things up.
> 
> If this is interesting to you, look at the manual for the Output Setup Command. You can select an output mode specific to an input and/or memory. A bit of setup but this works out well for me.


Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I currently have my Oppo set to Source Direct for the resolution, per my installer's advice. How are you telling the oppo to output the OSD at 24Hz, by some other mechanism?

Now I admit this is a first-world problem, but nearly every disc I put in my Oppo, I basically never see the studio logos (my screen is blank during). I see main menus of discs fine, and when I start a film, I typically don't miss anything from the beginning. I realize that perhaps the studio logos are at a different frame rate (60?) and that might be the reason.


----------



## loggeo

So, I have been running some tests with the new tone mapping firmware. I have calibrated to dci d65 gamma 2.4 using lightspace. I have also calibrated madvr to dci d65 gamma 2.2. I must say that both set ups look incredibly impressive. 

Knowing my lumagen better I was able to tweak my settings and get a bit more contrast and saturation. I absolutely love the result.
Congratulation to Jim and Patrick for their incredible work.

GOT season 8 episode 3 (The long night) is a great torture test for low settings and highlights the importance of good (gamma) calibration before applying tone mapping. 

As an example, there is a scene at 04:23. Soldiers are marching and the dragons flight in the background. Before (gamma) calibration it was very easy to miss them.
Of course I understand that this has to do with my precalibration gamma settings and not everyone will experience it.

Anyway, a question to anyone that can test and especially @Kris Deering . If I enable the "Adaptive" option this scene becomes a bit messy and clips detail. Anybody else seeing this issue?


----------



## Mike Garrett

gadgetfreaky said:


> when you say " off the screen" how do you mean? I held a light meter (android app on my pixel) at the screen pointed at the projector, so it was how much light the screen was getting. or are you saying i need to point the sensor at the screen and catch light as it reflects off of the screen?


Yes, measure off the screen. That is the brightness of your system.


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## docrog

I know that Lumagen is reported to do an exceptional job of upscaling 1080p Blu Ray to 4K. With regards to steaming video, I cannot prevent ATV4K or Roku Ultra from upscaling HD Netflix, Amazon, You Tube or Vudu content to 4K, but I could add a non-UHD Roku stick to output at 1080p if the Lumagen would outperform the steaming devices in upscaling legacy streaming material to 4K. Can anyone provide an opinion as to whether the Lumagen would be superior in this context? Thanks!


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> I know that Lumagen is reported to do an exceptional job of upscaling 1080p Blu Ray to 4K. With regards to steaming video, I cannot prevent ATV4K or Roku Ultra from upscaling HD Netflix, Amazon, You Tube or Vudu content to 4K, but I could add a non-UHD Roku stick to output at 1080p if the Lumagen would outperform the steaming devices in upscaling legacy streaming material to 4K. Can anyone provide an opinion as to whether the Lumagen would be superior in this context? Thanks!


My personal experience sitting 13 feet from a 10 foot wide screen: I use Plex on a Nvidia Shield for watching my ripped movies. It, at the moment, will not allow passing video through in its native resolution. I have yet to see anything in 1080P that did not look just stunning. My guess is that once Plex gets this addressed, that the Lumagen will do a better upscaling job but the important question is: will I see any difference in my theater? My guess would be if the images were side by side and someone who knew what to look for was pointing out the differences, I might see them. 

I suppose if I were sitting closer, it would be more important. I know that Plex is working on this so when they complete that work, I will then know for sure.

All of that to say, not having the Lumagen do the up-converting does absolutely nothing to take away the enjoyment of my moving watching experience.

It does do the upconverting of what I watch from Youtube TV!


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> My personal experience sitting 13 feet from a 10 foot wide screen: I use Plex on a Nvidia Shield for watching my ripped movies. It, at the moment, will not allow passing video through in its native resolution. I have yet to see anything in 1080P that did not look just stunning. My guess is that once Plex gets this addressed, that the Lumagen will do a better upscaling job but the important question is: will I see any difference in my theater? My guess would be if the images were side by side and someone who knew what to look for was pointing out the differences, I might see them.
> 
> I suppose if I were sitting closer, it would be more important. I know that Plex is working on this so when they complete that work, I will then know for sure.
> 
> All of that to say, not having the Lumagen do the up-converting does absolutely nothing to take away the enjoyment of my moving watching experience.
> 
> It does do the upconverting of what I watch from Youtube TV!


Thank you for providing that insight. However, it's not in any way applicable to my HT or the question that I posed: will Lumagen provide better upscaling of streaming HD content (from a 1080p Roku stick) than ATV4K or Roku Ultra? Although the Sony X700 UHD player will output SD & HD discs at 1080p, unfortunately it cannot be defeated from upscaling HD streaming material to 4K.


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> when you say " off the screen" how do you mean? I held a light meter (android app on my pixel) at the screen pointed at the projector, so it was how much light the screen was getting. or are you saying i need to point the sensor at the screen and catch light as it reflects off of the screen?


To get an accurate maximum light reading you need to measure with your color probe point at the screen. Not sure your "pixel" is capable of a good reading (although maybe it can. Not really familiar with it).

Note that a screen "gain" of 1.0 does not mean the screen reflects 100% of the light back (not even a mirror does this). What it means is the screen has the same reflectively of a matte sheet of white paper. With a "gain" of 1.4 you are getting 40% more light than off a sheet of paper (within the specified viewing angle). So multiplying the light approaching the screen with probe pointing back at the projector is definitely not an accurate way to figure out the light coming back off the screen.

If you tell me what projector you have, its Lumens rating, the screen size and the "gain" of the screen (1.4 per post), I might be able to give you an approximation of the maximum light output off the screen.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> I know that Lumagen is reported to do an exceptional job of upscaling 1080p Blu Ray to 4K. With regards to steaming video, I cannot prevent ATV4K or Roku Ultra from upscaling HD Netflix, Amazon, You Tube or Vudu content to 4K, but I could add a non-UHD Roku stick to output at 1080p if the Lumagen would outperform the steaming devices in upscaling legacy streaming material to 4K. Can anyone provide an opinion as to whether the Lumagen would be superior in this context? Thanks!


You can test this for yourself without having to purchase anything else.

Set a different memory (e.g. MEMB) to report only up to 1080 in the Pro's EDID. You do this by selecting MEMB, then go into MENU->Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Video EDID, and for "Video Limit" select 1080, press OK (and Save if desired). This should force the streamers back to 1080 (if they pay attention to Hot Plug, and EDID, as they should). Then you can evaluate the scaling of the Pro with the 1080 source outputting 1080. Pressing MEMA will change back to the MEMA EDID (and likely cause a source restart as it rereads the Pro's EDID due to the Pro toggling Hot Plug). So you may be able to compare the streamer output at 4k versus 1080 by toggling between MEMA and MEMB.

We don't have a way currently to set the Video Limit in the Pro's EDID to 1080i, so the streamer will likely output at 1080p preventing you from evaluating the Pro's deinterlacing.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I currently have my Oppo set to Source Direct for the resolution, per my installer's advice. How are you telling the oppo to output the OSD at 24Hz, by some other mechanism?
> 
> Now I admit this is a first-world problem, but nearly every disc I put in my Oppo, I basically never see the studio logos (my screen is blank during). I see main menus of discs fine, and when I start a film, I typically don't miss anything from the beginning. I realize that perhaps the studio logos are at a different frame rate (60?) and that might be the reason.


For the Oppo 203, go into Setup Menu, then Video Output Setup. Set Output Resolution to Custom, and then Custom Resolution to UHD 24Hz. Oppo *almost* did it right.

=== 

Soap box alert: It is beyond belief that manufactures set their OSD output resolution to 60.00 Hertz (or 24.00 Hertz in this case with the Oppo 203) when almost all consumer video content is either 59.94 or 23.98 (excepting 25 and 50 Hertz for this discussion). This is just plain dumb (and I am being kind). It also baffles that PCs did not long ago change from their default from being 60.00 Hertz to 59.94 Hertz. Once they started being video devices this is the only choice that makes any sense. So a very nice feature of the Oppo (i.e. a 24 Hertz OSD) is made much less nice since when you play 23.98 Hertz content, the Oppo stills need to restart its output because changing from 24.00 to 23.98 *is* a rate change. Of course this rate change is faster then 60 to 23.98, so better than nothing. If any, Bluray player, streamer, or PC, manufacturers are reading this, please take note. You will have a much better product if you set your OSD (and gaming and video playback) to output 59.94, allowing 23.98, or 50 Hertz if appropriate, and of course please also support source direct mode like the Oppo 203. End of soap box.

=== 

To avoid the output restart on the Radiance Pro for this case you can turn "Rate Match" off. You should also manually select the output rates as noted in the slides I posted a few days ago (MENU 0873 for 9 GHz, or MENU 0874 for 18 GHz, then MENU 0872 for 3840 wide or MENU 0877 for 4095 wide. This turns Rate Match Off, and allows 23.98, 25, 50, 59.94 out of the Pro). One other Pro setting. You can set both CMS0 and CMS1 to SDR 2020 output mode (or SDR709 for a TV/projector with only a 709 Gamut). This eliminates the output restart for the color format change (e.g. starting a HDR movie). With these you should be able to see video from the Oppo in about 3 to 4 seconds (I measured just over three seconds in the Lumagen Demo Theater).


----------



## DannyBoy73

audioguy said:


> My personal experience sitting 13 feet from a 10 foot wide screen: I use Plex on a Nvidia Shield for watching my ripped movies. It, at the moment, will not allow passing video through in its native resolution. I have yet to see anything in 1080P that did not look just stunning. My guess is that once Plex gets this addressed, that the Lumagen will do a better upscaling job but the important question is: will I see any difference in my theater? My guess would be if the images were side by side and someone who knew what to look for was pointing out the differences, I might see them.
> 
> I suppose if I were sitting closer, it would be more important. I know that Plex is working on this so when they complete that work, I will then know for sure.
> 
> All of that to say, not having the Lumagen do the up-converting does absolutely nothing to take away the enjoyment of my moving watching experience.
> 
> It does do the upconverting of what I watch from Youtube TV!


Do you know of any device/software combo that will just output the native resolution of what you play? I've been reading about the new Atari VCS which has sandbox mode, I'm hoping that might be able too.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> You can test this for yourself without having to purchase anything else.
> 
> Set a different memory (e.g. MEMB) to report only up to 1080 in the Pro's EDID. You do this by selecting MEMB, then go into MENU->Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Video EDID, and for "Video Limit" select 1080, press OK (and Save if desired). This should force the streamers back to 1080 (if they pay attention to Hot Plug, and EDID, as they should). Then you can evaluate the scaling of the Pro with the 1080 source outputting 1080. Pressing MEMA will change back to the MEMA EDID (and likely cause a source restart as it rereads the Pro's EDID due to the Pro toggling Hot Plug). So you may be able to compare the streamer output at 4k versus 1080 by toggling between MEMA and MEMB.
> 
> We don't have a way currently to set the Video Limit in the Pro's EDID to 1080i, so the streamer will likely output at 1080p preventing you from evaluating the Pro's deinterlacing.


Thanks for that work around, Jim. BTW, I wouldn't have to purchase any additional Roku stick, merely (temporarily?) borrow one from another display in my home. I guess my question could be rephrased by inquiring whether the Radiance Pro's scaling of HD streaming content is managed the same as HD Blu Ray content ("no ringing", etc.). If so, in *your* opinion, would you anticipate that I should be able to see a similar upscaling improvement with the Pro versus ATV4K or Roku Ultra?


----------



## audioguy

DannyBoy73 said:


> Do you know of any device/software combo that will just output the native resolution of what you play? I've been reading about the new Atari VCS which has sandbox mode, I'm hoping that might be able too.


Yes. The Shield using Kodi will do so and the Shield with MrMC will do so. The interfaces for each of those would not meet my requirements but for lots of folks, they work fine. (I had previously used 3 other boxes that also could play native video but each of those had other issues that were unacceptable for me - Dune, Zidoo, and one other, in addition to the AppleTV box. Any of those might work for you, in addition to the latest Zappiti box.

I have my movies in about 8 different folders and only Plex (at least as far as I could determine) would allow specific access to that exact group of folders individually. In my case, I have the following specific folders: All Movies; 4K movies; Blu Ray Movies: Concert Videos; HDR Demo Movie Clips; SDR Demo Movie Clips; Next Up - Old Movies; Next Up - New Movies.

And as a reminder, I know that Plex is working on this issue and, in fact, had a release that included that ability but had to pull it due to some bugs that needed addressing. It will show up soon enough.


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Do you know of any device/software combo that will just output the native resolution of what you play? I've been reading about the new Atari VCS which has sandbox mode, I'm hoping that might be able too.


The M9702 network only clone of the Oppo units (or a Jailbroken Oppo unit) will play ISO, VIDEO_TS and MKV at original resolution and refresh rate. User interface is ghastly though.


----------



## docrog

Given the option when playing SD DVD movies, is it preferable (in terms of ultimate PQ) to have the player output at 480p (and have the Lumagen upscale to 4K) or have the player output at 1080p (and have the Lumagen upscale from there to 4K)? Or, does it make no difference for legacy SD content? Thanks!


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks for that work around, Jim. BTW, I wouldn't have to purchase any additional Roku stick, merely (temporarily?) borrow one from another display in my home. I guess my question could be rephrased by inquiring whether the Radiance Pro's scaling of HD streaming content is managed the same as HD Blu Ray content ("no ringing", etc.). If so, in *your* opinion, would you anticipate that I should be able to see a similar upscaling improvement with the Pro versus ATV4K or Roku Ultra?


The Pro's NoRing scaling is used for all sources any time scaling is needed. To answer as asked, yes, the streaming content is handled the same as Bluray content in the Radiance Pro, and in fact there is no way for the Pro to tell which is which.

If you like the effect of the Darbee processing (some do, some don't), then the additional advantage of the streamer outputting at 1080 is you can use the Darbee processing, and you can't if the streamer outputs 4k.

I believe you will see improvements using the Pro scaling versus the streamers scaling. This has been true in the past when comparisons were made. I do not expect this has changed, but you can do your own comparisons.

As an aside: Most scaling has a lot of "ringing." At first glance this ringing can make the image look sharper, but as you evaluate the image quality you will see it actually degrades the image since it creates artifacts in the image. For example, the ringing can create "halos" around objects that should not be there. In addition fine details can be obscured by the ringing.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Given the option when playing SD DVD movies, is it preferable (in terms of ultimate PQ) to have the player output at 480p (and have the Lumagen upscale to 4K) or have the player output at 1080p (and have the Lumagen upscale from there to 4K)? Or, does it make no difference for legacy SD content? Thanks!


Good question. I have not evaluated this, and it would depend on how good the scaling is in the player. I can say, scaling from 480p to 1080p in a Radiance 2XXX, and then scaling from 1080p to 2160p in a Radiance Pro is slightly better given how our NoRing(TM) scaling algorithm is currently implemented. We have a few customers with this setup and I always recommend the 2XXX output 1080p for these clients.

The problem doing this in the source is the source device will almost certainly be adding ringing if it scales at all. Once the ringing is in the image it is part of the image and the Radiance Pro would scale the ringing right along with the actual video content. So I believe outputting the native resolution from the source device will provide a better image. This is what we always recommend, when the source device allows a "Source Direct" mode (or you program the Pro EDID to disallow a higher resolution).

===== 

A corollary is selecting the output color format from source device. Consumer video is always encoded as 4:2:0. That is 1/4 resolution Chroma. There is a very good reason for doing this. That is that the human visual system is about 1/9th as sensitive to Chroma as it is to Luma. So 1/4 Chroma is actually a excellent trade-off between bit rate and image quality. So, for Color Format "source direct" would also want to be 4:2:0 from the source device. There is a 4:2:0 format but it is not defined in HDMI for 24 Hertz. So at least for 24 Hertz content, the best format available from the source device is 4:2:2, which is half-res-Chroma (and *not* 4:4:4). The reason is historically some source devices have done a poor job of converting 4:2:0 to 4:4:4. So having the source only up-convert Chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 gives sources one less thing to mess up. Note also that for 4k60, 4:4:4 only has 8-bits maximum, but 4:2:2 is 12-bits. Unfortunately many source devices do not allow output as 4:2:2. Another mistake if any were to ask me.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> The Pro's NoRing scaling is used for all sources any time scaling is needed. To answer as asked, yes, the streaming content is handled the same as Bluray content in the Radiance Pro, and in fact there is no way for the Pro to tell which is which.
> 
> If you like the effect of the Darbee processing (some do, some don't), then the additional advantage of the streamer outputting at 1080 is you can use the Darbee processing, and you can't if the streamer outputs 4k.
> 
> I believe you will see improvements using the Pro scaling versus the streamers scaling. This has been true in the past when comparisons were made. I do not expect this has changed, but you can do your own comparisons.
> 
> As an aside: Most scaling has a lot of "ringing." At first glance this ringing can make the image look sharper, but as you evaluate the image quality you will see it actually degrades the image since it creates artifacts in the image. For example, the ringing can create "halos" around objects that should not be there. In addition fine details can be obscured by the ringing.


Excellent resumé. Many thanks!


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Good question. I have not evaluated this, and it would depend on how good the scaling is in the player. I can say, scaling from 480p to 1080p in a Radiance 2XXX, and then scaling from 1080p to 2160p in a Radiance Pro is slightly better given how our NoRing(TM) scaling algorithm is currently implemented. We have a few customers with this setup and I always recommend the 2XXX output 1080p for these clients.
> 
> The problem doing this in the source is the source device will almost certainly be adding ringing if it scales at all. Once the ringing is in the image it is part of the image and the Radiance Pro would scale the ringing right along with the actual video content. So I believe outputting the native resolution from the source device will provide a better image. This is what we always recommend, when the source device allows a "Source Direct" mode (or you program the Pro EDID to disallow a higher resolution).


My Lumagen is a 4240 *JUST* arrived (undamaged) and I'll be placing it in my HT later this afternoon! FWIW, I recently (before the 4240 arrived) tried setting the Oppo 103D (yes, I enjoy mild Darbee processing of legacy content) in "Source Direct" resolution. When playing an SD DVD the NX7 showed a blank screen and "Out of Range" appeared in the right upper corner. When I re-set the resolution to "Auto" the DVD played at 1080p output without any hiccups. Is this to be expected? Thanks, again!


----------



## docrog

4240 now in my HT. Although I had been assured that the firmware version would be up to date prior to shipping on 1/2/20, it arrived with v100619.  A quick question: does the power/standby LED remain blue even after there has been no active input for over 20 minutes? Pushing the power button on the remote does not appear to change the state of the LED. I'm not able to find any further reference in the user manual.


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## bobof

docrog said:


> 4240 now in my HT. Although I had been assured that the firmware version would be up to date prior to shipping on 1/2/20, it arrived with v100619.  A quick question: does the power/standby LED remain blue even after there has been no active input for over 20 minutes? Pushing the power button on the remote does not appear to change the state of the LED. I'm not able to find any further reference in the user manual.


There is no auto-off function.
There are two power related buttons on the remote. STBY puts the unit into standby. ON... only turns it on. Make sure you are pressing STBY if you want to turn it "off" (into standby).


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## docrog

bobof said:


> There is no auto-off function. There are two power related buttons on the remote. STBY puts the unit into standby. ON... only turns it on. Make sure you are pressing STBY if you want to turn it "off" (into standby).


Got it, thanks! Pushing standby on the remote changed the LED to red. I guess I had assumed that there would be an auto-on/off function since the processor is only relevant when there's an active HDMI input. I wish that there had been the option for an input trigger for power on/off (from the AVR) as is the case for my external amplifiers.........


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## bobof

docrog said:


> Got it, thanks! Pushing standby on the remote changed the LED to red. I guess I had assumed that there would be an auto-on/off function since the processor is only relevant when there's an active HDMI input. I wish that there had been the option for an input trigger for power on/off (from the AVR) as is the case for my external amplifiers.........


I think most systems incorporating a Lumagen will have some sort of control system coordinating proceedings, be that a Harmony or something much grander. If you haven't got at least a harmony in your theatre you really should have. Power on / standby are supported over the Rs232 control port or via IR.

Auto off etc features are disliked by pretty much anyone in custom install as they make the behaviour of a system much harder to model (your system now has two or more state engines). It is much better for the behaviour to be deterministic.

Likewise the separate on / standby buttons are a massive plus when automating a system. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


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## docrog

bobof said:


> I think most systems incorporating a Lumagen will have some sort of control system coordinating proceedings, be that a Harmony or something much grander. If you haven't got at least a harmony in your theatre you really should have. Power on / standby are supported over the Rs232 control port or via IR.
> 
> Auto off etc features are disliked by pretty much anyone in custom install as they make the behaviour of a system much harder to model (your system now has two or more state engines). It is much better for the behaviour to be deterministic.
> 
> Likewise the separate on / standby buttons are a massive plus when automating a system.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


I do have an older Harmony One+ remote and I'll upgrade it to include Lumagen this weekend. At least I'll know what button/function to add (standby) in my "power down" macro! It still would have been a nice feature to have an input (power) trigger as an option......


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## uderman

jrp said:


> Good question. I have not evaluated this, and it would depend on how good the scaling is in the player. I can say, scaling from 480p to 1080p in a Radiance 2XXX, and then scaling from 1080p to 2160p in a Radiance Pro is slightly better given how our NoRing(TM) scaling algorithm is currently implemented. We have a few customers with this setup and I always recommend the 2XXX output 1080p for these clients.
> 
> The problem doing this in the source is the source device will almost certainly be adding ringing if it scales at all. Once the ringing is in the image it is part of the image and the Radiance Pro would scale the ringing right along with the actual video content. So I believe outputting the native resolution from the source device will provide a better image. This is what we always recommend, when the source device allows a "Source Direct" mode (or you program the Pro EDID to disallow a higher resolution).
> 
> =====
> 
> A corollary is selecting the output color format from source device. Consumer video is always encoded as 4:2:0. That is 1/4 resolution Chroma. There is a very good reason for doing this. That is that the human visual system is about 1/9th as sensitive to Chroma as it is to Luma. So 1/4 Chroma is actually a excellent trade-off between bit rate and image quality. So, for Color Format "source direct" would also want to be 4:2:0 from the source device. There is a 4:2:0 format but it is not defined in HDMI for 24 Hertz. So at least for 24 Hertz content, the best format available from the source device is 4:2:2, which is half-res-Chroma (and *not* 4:4:4). The reason is historically some source devices have done a poor job of converting 4:2:0 to 4:4:4. So having the source only up-convert Chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 gives sources one less thing to mess up. Note also that for 4k60, 4:4:4 only has 8-bits maximum, but 4:2:2 is 12-bits. Unfortunately many source devices do not allow output as 4:2:2. Another mistake if any were to ask me.


This is interesting. Which is the best combination for 480i content? (480i to)480p out from 2XXX to Radiance Pro, 480i to 1080p in 2XXX to Radiance Pro, 480i to 4K in 2XXXX to Radiance Pro? Or 480i directly into Radiance Pro and let it deinterlace and scale to 4K?

How does the deinterlacing on Pro compare to Gennum VXP on 2XXX on SD film content? How does it compare to film mode deinterlacing on 2XXX?

Is there any room on the FPGA and any plans to include video noise reduction on Radiance Pro? Even for only SD and/or HD resolutions? I don’t believe there is a need for it for 4K and 1080p material but 480i DVDs, 720p/1080i cable/sat TV can use some mosquito noise reduction.


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## docrog

uderman said:


> This is interesting. Which is the best combination for 480i content? (480i to)480p out from 2XXX to Radiance Pro, 480i to 1080p in 2XXX to Radiance Pro, 480i to 4K in 2XXXX to Radiance Pro? Or 480i directly into Radiance Pro and let it deinterlace and scale to 4K?


I'm unfamiliar with the term *2XXX*. What is its applicability regarding the 4240 that I've just received? Thanks!


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## DannyBoy73

docrog said:


> I'm unfamiliar with the term *2XXX*. What is its applicability regarding the 4240 that I've just received? Thanks!


I believe it refers to the old models of Radiance, before 4k.... So I think the suggestion is, SD -> to HD via 2xxx unit and then 2xxx unit into a 4xxx unit.


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## docrog

DannyBoy73 said:


> I believe it refers to the old models of Radiance, before 4k.... So I think the suggestion is, SD -> to HD via 2xxx unit and then 2xxx unit into a 4xxx unit.


If that's the case, I'm not sure how it's applicable to a 4240 owner who doesn't also own an older Lumagen model. I think that the best option (regarding using the 4240 to upscale SD content to 4K rather than having a Blu Ray player perform that upscaling) for me would be to resurrect an old progressive DVD player (480i -> 480p) as a separate input device: 480p -> 4240 -> 4K -> NX7.


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## DannyBoy73

docrog said:


> If that's the case, I'm not sure how it's applicable to a 4240 owner who doesn't also own an older Lumagen model. I think that the best option (regarding using the 4240 to upscale SD content to 4K rather than having a Blu Ray player perform that upscaling) for me would be to resurrect an old progressive DVD player (480i -> 480p) as a separate input device: 480p -> 4240 -> 4K -> NX7.


I think you're correct, the 4xxx unit should upscale better than the older player, so output the old player at native 480i/480p.

However, the above comments do raise the question, which would be better?

Older player 480i/480p -> 4240 4k -> Projector

Older player 480i/480p -> 2XXX 1080p -> 4240 4k -> Projector

Would the 2xxx device upscale from SD to HD better than the 4240 going from SD to 4k?

If there is any difference then I'm sure it would be marginal. You'd have to really care about SD content to make it worth buying a 2xxx unit just for that.


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## docrog

DannyBoy73 said:


> I think you're correct, the 4xxx unit should upscale better than the older player, so output the old player at native 480i/480p. Would the 2xxx device upscale from SD to HD better than the 4240 going from SD to 4k? If there is any difference then I'm sure it would be marginal. You'd have to really care about SD content to make it worth buying a 2xxx unit just for that.


There's no way I could justify $$$ for likely little appreciable gain for my remaining DVD collection. I'll go on the assumption that providing 480p and utilizing the 4240's Darbee processing will provide a far more than acceptable upscaled 4K image. One of the comparisons I'm looking forward to making is whether I perceive any differences in comparing an upscaled DVD (via the 4240) versus HD upscaling which I purchased by converting the same title to HD in Vudu for streaming (via "disc-to-digital"). Since "The Abyss" has never been released on Blu Ray (1080p/UHD) and cannot be upscaled through Vudu, I'm very much looking forward to viewing it again through the 4240.


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## docrog

jrp said:


> Good question. I have not evaluated this, and it would depend on how good the scaling is in the player. I can say, scaling from 480p to 1080p in a Radiance 2XXX, and then scaling from 1080p to 2160p in a Radiance Pro is slightly better given how our NoRing(TM) scaling algorithm is currently implemented. We have a few customers with this setup and I always recommend the 2XXX output 1080p for these clients.


Could someone please clear up an issue for me? It's stated under the heading of "key features" (in the Radiance Pro brochure) that there is "per pixel SD/HD deinterlacing". Does this mean that the Radiance Pro deinterlaces 480p content prior to upscaling and outputting at 4K progressive? If not, to what does that "key feature" pertain?


----------



## uderman

Yes, 2XXX refers to previous generation Radiance models which were on a different FPGA and perhaps on different code. 

Jim said above that having 2XXX do scaling up to 1080p then Radiance Pro doing the rest got him better results than just Radiance Pro handling SD content. That’s why I asked these questions. 

I know the TM no ringing scaling differs on previous generations. An HDQ doesn’t scale as good as Radiance XD although they both claim the same no ringing scaling to 1080p. Perhaps there are differences between Radiance 2XXX and Radiance Pro? 

Also, the deinterlacing engines are completely different. Jim previously stated they both strengths and weaknesses such as Radiance Pro combs far less than Gennum VXP but VXP has diagonal filtering for some content. I believe his comments were referring to HD deinterlacing. I am curious about his opinion on SD deinterlacing. 

I am sure for most applications a Radiance Pro will be adequate but for those who wants the best in every content, adding another Radiance isn’t unrealistic. Older models aren’t as expensive as Radiance Pro anyway. 

I personally kept my 2144 for my SD and analog sources. So far I have been using 480i (source) into 2144 (480p out) into Algolith mosquito hdmi (480p out) into Radiance Pro 4449 (4K60 out). I am wondering if I should remove Algolith mosquito hdmi, have 2144 output 1080p into Radiance Pro like Jim suggested above and I am curious why it is better than Radiance Pro upscaling the entire range.

Note: Algolith mosquito hdmi is a dedicated video noise reduction device. It doesn’t deinterlace or upscale. It only has various noise reduction filters and settings. It is best I have seen in this regard. The company was purchased by a Canadian broadcast equipment company a long time and they pulled from the consumer market. Mosquito Hdmi was their last product and it can only handle up to 1080i/1080p24.(not enough bandwidth for 1080p60). Some of their algorithms went into HQV.


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## docrog

Of note is the fact that the Radiance Pro brochure indicates that it accepts SD content, but it doesn't specify whether that means 480i, 480p, or both. I guess that choosing which resolution to use is relevant with regards to obtaining optimal upscaling to 4K if I'm not planning to add an additional 2XXX Lumagen.

EDIT: Sending 480i (DVD source direct) from my Oppo 103D to the 4240 looked quite acceptable upscaled to 4K with Darbee set at 45%!


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## docrog

I've just installed a Lumagen 4240 before my NX7. Irrespective of the source, HDR content input is shown by the Lumagen to be 420 HDR 2020, but the output is reported as 422 SDR 2020 (the NX7 reports YUV BT2020). The Lumagen is connected to the NX7 via the same optical fiber Ruipro cable which previously appropriately carried these same sources as HDR. A 2nd cable is connected direct from the AVR to the NX7's 2nd HDMI input and this is carrying HDR BT2020, while switching NX7 inputs back to the 4240 continues to carry SDR BT2020 for the same content. Am I missing a setting here? 

BTW, firmware is current (122819). Thanks!


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## bobof

This would imply it has been set up (usually correctly) to output SDR2020 for your tone mapped HDR input.

If you want to to output HDR2020 for HDR input then you'd typically change CMS1 output format away from SDR2020. But why would you want to do that? I'm assuming you bought it to tone map with...!


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## docrog

bobof said:


> This would imply it has been set up (usually correctly) to output SDR2020 for your tone mapped HDR input.
> 
> If you want to to output HDR2020 for HDR input then you'd typically change CMS1 output format away from SDR2020. But why would you want to do that? I'm assuming you bought it to tone map with...!


Thanks, Bob. This is highly confusing to me since I did purchase the Pro because it was reported to be more precise with adaptive DTM than the current JVC firmware. Are you saying that the NX7 should never report HDR output from the Pro because HDR always being mapped in SDR BT2020? If that's the case, what user mode & color profile for the NX7 is appropriate? Natural & BT2020 (filter engaged)? 

Last year Chad B. provided me with a user mode "SDR BT2020NF", would that be the appropriate setting for the NX7? I had thought that I would continue to use the HDR10 mode with BT2020 color profile, but disable the NX7's tone mapping feature when I used the Pro.


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## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks, Bob. This is highly confusing to me since I did purchase the Pro because it was reported to be more precise with adaptive DTM than the current JVC firmware. Are you saying that the NX7 should never report HDR output from the Pro because HDR always being mapped in SDR BT2020? If that's the case, what user mode & color profile for the NX7 is appropriate? Natural & BT2020 (filter engaged)?
> 
> Last year Chad B. provided me with a user mode "SDR BT2020NF", would that be the appropriate setting for the NX7? I had thought that I would continue to use the HDR10 mode with BT2020 color profile, but disable the NX7's tone mapping feature when I used the Pro.


Read Jim's notes on optimum setup, but basically for best results if your display doesn't have some odd limitation (like needing PQ gamma to do WCG) you should output SDR2020 for HDR tone mapped content - which means your projector will never think it is receiving HDR. You optionally may choose to tag that signal as HDR using the HDR flag to take advantage of automatic mode switching in the projector (so in that case it would see the HDR flag), but you'd still set the display up for 2.4 power gamma. The JVC projectors don't have any odd behaviours so this is the best way to set them up. 

I believe you'd want to be in BT2020 colour profile mode with SDR gamma (2.4 power law gamma) instead of HDR gamma. 2020NF implies no filter, which you don't need unless you are short of light. Using 2020NF means you won't get the most saturated P3 colours but might be able to close iris further for same light output (and so get a bit more contrast). It's a "suck it and see" job unless you take advice from a calibrator who's tried it and can sell you their decision...  

As I say, best read and inwardly digest the training notes from Jim. Maybe consider getting one of the calibrators who specialise in these to give you some telephone consultancy on how to get it set up best.


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## docrog

bobof said:


> Read Jim's notes on optimum setup, but basically for best results if your display doesn't have some odd limitation (like needing PQ gamma to do WCG) you should output SDR2020 for HDR tone mapped content - which means your projector will never think it is receiving HDR. You optionally may choose to tag that signal as HDR using the HDR flag to take advantage of automatic mode switching in the projector (so in that case it would see the HDR flag), but you'd still set the display up for 2.4 power gamma. The JVC projectors don't have any odd behaviours so this is the best way to set them up.
> 
> I believe you'd want to be in BT2020 colour profile mode with SDR gamma (2.4 power law gamma) instead of HDR gamma. 2020NF implies no filter, which you don't need unless you are short of light. Using 2020NF means you won't get the most saturated P3 colours but might be able to close iris further for same light output (and so get a bit more contrast). It's a "suck it and see" job unless you take advice from a calibrator who's tried it and can sell you their decision...
> 
> As I say, best read and inwardly digest the training notes from Jim. Maybe consider getting one of the calibrators who specialise in these to give you some telephone consultancy on how to get it set up best.


Craig Rounds will be coming to my home at the end of the month to do Lumagen & NX7 calibration. I have read the Lumagen user manual and now understand that SDR will be the output of HDR input. Interestingly, and the reason that I was confused, was because the 4240 was outputting HDR10 last night with firmware v101619, but now it's SDR BT2020 since the current firmware (v1228519) has been successfully updated. However, I still have to choose a "Picture Mode" to go along with the "Color Profile" (BT2020). That seems to be the final piece of the larger puzzle which needs to be ironed out.


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## bobof

docrog said:


> Craig Rounds will be coming to my home at the end of the month to do Lumagen & NX7 calibration. I have read the Lumagen user manual and now understand that SDR will be the output of HDR input. Interestingly, and the reason that I was confused, was because the 4240 was outputting HDR10 last night with firmware v101619, but now it's SDR BT2020 since the current firmware (v1228519) has been successfully updated. However, I still have to choose a "Picture Mode" to go along with the "Color Profile" (BT2020). That seems to be the final piece of the larger puzzle which needs to be ironed out.


Do you want / need the projector to switch to different iris settings for SDR vs HDR?


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## dgkula

docrog said:


> Craig Rounds will be coming to my home at the end of the month to do Lumagen & NX7 calibration. I have read the Lumagen user manual and now understand that SDR will be the output of HDR input. Interestingly, and the reason that I was confused, was because the 4240 was outputting HDR10 last night with firmware v101619, but now it's SDR BT2020 since the current firmware (v1228519) has been successfully updated. However, I still have to choose a "Picture Mode" to go along with the "Color Profile" (BT2020). That seems to be the final piece of the larger puzzle which needs to be ironed out.


I have a JVC RS620 and when I first received my Lumagen I was a little confused about the fact that it would send HDR in an SDR container and I wouldnt use the HDR mode on the projector per se.

The Lumagen will send the HDR flag so the projector will switch into HDR mode automatically but you will want to use an SDR 2.4 gamma - I used the existing HDR mode to allow the auto-switch and changed the gamma in that mode from HDR to 2.4 and kept the BT2020 color profile (with filter) and the result is perfect.


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## DannyBoy73

dgkula said:


> The Lumagen will send the HDR flag so the projector will switch into HDR mode automatically but you will want to use an SDR 2.4 gamma - I used the existing HDR mode to allow the auto-switch and changed the gamma in that mode from HDR to 2.4 and kept the BT2020 color profile (with filter) and the result is perfect.


So is your HDR profile the same as SDR now? You're just using the HDR flag to auto switch to the HDR profile?


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## dgkula

DannyBoy73 said:


> So is your HDR profile the same as SDR now? You're just using the HDR flag to auto switch to the HDR profile?


For normal SDR content I dont use the BT2020 color space, I use REC 709.

My HDR profile for "HDR in an SDR container" is Gamma 2.4 / BT2020 and high lamp. This allows for Lumagen DTM and the JVC auto-switch.
My SDR profile is Gamma 2.4 / REC 709 and low lamp

Anyone feel free to correct me if I have this set up worng but this is what I got from the manual & this thread and it looks perfect!


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## docrog

bobof said:


> Do you want / need the projector to switch to different iris settings for SDR vs HDR?


Ordinarily, before I added the 4240, my iris was set at -4 (low lamp) for SDR Rec.709 and (previously, when using JVC frame adaptive DTM) the iris was set at -4 (low lamp) for HDR BT.2020. Right now FWIW, Chad B's profile for both HDR10 and SDR BT.2020NF had the iris at 0 (lamp high) with custom gamma curves. I'll be playing around with different combinations this afternoon.


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## docrog

dgkula said:


> I have a JVC RS620 and when I first received my Lumagen I was a little confused about the fact that it would send HDR in an SDR container and I wouldn't use the HDR mode on the projector per se.
> 
> The Lumagen will send the HDR flag so the projector will switch into HDR mode automatically but you will want to use an SDR 2.4 gamma - I used the existing HDR mode to allow the auto-switch and changed the gamma in that mode from HDR to 2.4 and kept the BT2020 color profile (with filter) and the result is perfect.


I tried setting up a user mode as you've mentioned, but the Lumagen is apparently not sending the HDR flag, so no switch is occurring for my NX7. Could you assist me in getting the Lumagen to send the HDR flag? BTW, what color temperature did you select for this SDR BT2020 mode: HDR10 or 6500? Thanks!

EDIT: No help needed! Craig Rounds walked me through the Lumagen menus and the NX7 auto switches to the new user mode with HDR content (but still output as SDR BT.2020).


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## riddle

Hi, could I ask how many of you are using Lumagen radiance PRO in combination with HTPC MadVR Nvidia GPU? Whether it makes any sense and added some values. HTPC KODI/Gamer have very universally application.


Thank you


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## jrp

I will try to touch on the topics since my last posts.

In an attempt to simplify setup (and reduce my time on the phone helping setup), I asked Patrick to change the Global EDID to always report HDR/HLG/2020, and turn on HDR Mapping by default, in 122819. Unfortunately it looks like the TVs and projectors are ignoring the Rec 2020 flag (a major mistake in my opinion) and so do not go to Rec 2020 when the Pro output is set to SDR2020 automatically. So people were not actually getting Rec 2020 in the Projector/TV for HDR. Not good. Unfortunately it means my plans to reduce my support load are stymied. So back to default being HDR in gets you HDR out with Tone Mapping off. We will leave the HDR/HLG/2020 EDID flags enabled back to sources so a small victory for reduced setup time.

We will be adding a few more "direct codes" for me, and others, to help get setup quickly. More on this at a later date.

If you just received your unit it had older software due to an internal miss communication. One of our internal only tests was broken in 120419 and 121819. I asked out test person to just use 100619 for that test, and she thought I meant test and ship with 100619. Apologizes for this. We have addressed this and are now using 122819. There are improvements in 122819, so you may want to consider upgrading if you received your unit recently.

Here is a setup tip for the Harmony remote products. The correct way to select an input with a programmable remote is to send the "Input" code, and then the input number. Unfortunately Harmony did not include the "Input" button. If nothing is on the screen sending just the input number works, but if anything is on the screen and you send just a number it will not work and could possibly do something unwanted. The work around is to send a "CLR" code to clear any onscreen display first, and then the input digit. This is especially important after power-on since the OSD should the input on screen, requiring the Input command first, but the CLR command does the job by taking down the OSD so then just the input number is needed. As part of this, I tell my Harmony Elite "no input select needed to the Pro", but then I add both the CLR and input number as commands to achieve a source change. This saves the bit of time needed to send the number by itself and perhaps might prevent an unwanted option.

Someone asked if deinterlacing applied to 480p. It does not. Deinterlacing is for only interlaced sources. There are 480i60, 576i50, 1080i50, and 1080i60. Progressive sources (480p, 720p, 1080p, 2160p) do not need deinterlacing. The Pro does have a "re-interlace" feature mostly used in Europe. In Europe (and elsewhere) many settop boxes only did a vertical pixel replication for 576i to 576p, instead of deinterlacing. The Pro re-interlacing detects the fields, internally converts back to interlaced, and then does its own deinterlacing.

Someone noted my earlier posts on Pro deinterlacing versus the "Gennum" in 1080 Radiance products. The Gennum has a diagonal filter which is good for sports like hockey with a pronounced line in the middle. The Pro does not have a diagonal filter. I think the Pro has the advantage for HD content and likely non-sports SD content over the Gennum since thePro deinterlacing is designed to "comb" much less often. I very much dislike combing for deinterlacing, and so I prefer the Pro deinterlacing.

To repeat something in one of my recent posts: We recommend that the sources be set to output content at the native resolution for the content, including SD content. Then the Pro NoRing(TM) scales up to 4k.

When we mention the Pro accepts SD content, it means all SD content.

I mentioned a 2XXX unit scaling to 1080 before going into the Pro mostly for completeness. I am not recommending you run out an buy a 2143 for this. as the different would be small. The Pro does a very good job scaling SD to 4k, and improving this further is on our to-do list. Not sure when we could get to this though.

On the question of noise reduction and enhancements: We plan to add spacial image enhancement, and spacial noise reduction. We do not plan to add temporal noise reduction. Now that we have ADTM well in hand these are high priority, right behind our planned pipeline precision improvement taking the entire pipeline to at least 12 bits (current front end is 10-bit).

The Pro "outputs HDR in a SDR container." For this output mode, only the JVC (that I know of) works with the trick of setting the HDR Flag on even through the Pro is outputs in SDR mode. As mentioned you select a Gamma = 2.4 in the JVC projector for the memory you select with this (I use the "HDR" mode, with Gamma in the Projector = 2.2 since it measured closet to 2.4). This does not work with other products. For example teh Sony forces it HDR tone mapping on if the HDR flag is set. No way to turn off its tone mapping in this case and you do not want to tone map twice.

Lots of little details. Hopefully I got them all.


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## fatherom

jrp said:


> In an attempt to simplify setup (and reduce my time on the phone helping setup), I asked Patrick to change the Global EDID to always report HDR/HLG/2020, and turn on HDR Mapping by default, in 122819. Unfortunately it looks like the TVs and projectors are ignoring the Rec 2020 flag (a major mistake in my opinion) and so do not go to Rec 2020 when the Pro output is set to SDR2020 automatically. So people were not actually getting Rec 2020 in the Projector/TV for HDR. Not good. Unfortunately it means my plans to reduce my support load are stymied. So back to default being HDR in gets you HDR out with Tone Mapping off. We will leave the HDR/HLG/2020 EDID flags enabled back to sources so a small victory for reduced setup time.



I have a question about this. Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying, but it seems you're saying 122819 broke sdr2020?

I'm confused because in my setup I haven't noticed any difference with respect to this. My Sony still claims its getting 2020 when I bring up the info menu. And the lumagen status info still looks as it always has when I'm doing hdr->sdr. 

Chris, slightly confused



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mindedc

jrp said:


> I will try to touch on the topics since my last posts.
> 
> In an attempt to simplify setup (and reduce my time on the phone helping setup), I asked Patrick to change the Global EDID to always report HDR/HLG/2020, and turn on HDR Mapping by default, in 122819. Unfortunately it looks like the TVs and projectors are ignoring the Rec 2020 flag (a major mistake in my opinion) and so do not go to Rec 2020 when the Pro output is set to SDR2020 automatically. So people were not actually getting Rec 2020 in the Projector/TV for HDR. Not good. Unfortunately it means my plans to reduce my support load are stymied. So back to default being HDR in gets you HDR out with Tone Mapping off. We will leave the HDR/HLG/2020 EDID flags enabled back to sources so a small victory for reduced setup time.
> 
> We will be adding a few more "direct codes" for me, and others, to help get setup quickly. More on this at a later date.
> 
> If you just received your unit it had older software due to an internal miss communication. One of our internal only tests was broken in 120419 and 121819. I asked out test person to just use 100619 for that test, and she thought I meant test and ship with 100619. Apologizes for this. We have addressed this and are now using 122819. There are improvements in 122819, so you may want to consider upgrading if you received your unit recently.
> 
> Here is a setup tip for the Harmony remote products. The correct way to select an input with a programmable remote is to send the "Input" code, and then the input number. Unfortunately Harmony did not include the "Input" button. If nothing is on the screen sending just the input number works, but if anything is on the screen and you send just a number it will not work and could possibly do something unwanted. The work around is to send a "CLR" code to clear any onscreen display first, and then the input digit. This is especially important after power-on since the OSD should the input on screen, requiring the Input command first, but the CLR command does the job by taking down the OSD so then just the input number is needed. As part of this, I tell my Harmony Elite "no input select needed to the Pro", but then I add both the CLR and input number as commands to achieve a source change. This saves the bit of time needed to send the number by itself and perhaps might prevent an unwanted option.
> 
> Someone asked if deinterlacing applied to 480p. It does not. Deinterlacing is for only interlaced sources. There are 480i60, 576i50, 1080i50, and 1080i60. Progressive sources (480p, 720p, 1080p, 2160p) do not need deinterlacing. The Pro does have a "re-interlace" feature mostly used in Europe. In Europe (and elsewhere) many settop boxes only did a vertical pixel replication for 576i to 576p, instead of deinterlacing. The Pro re-interlacing detects the fields, internally converts back to interlaced, and then does its own deinterlacing.
> 
> Someone noted my earlier posts on Pro deinterlacing versus the "Gennum" in 1080 Radiance products. The Gennum has a diagonal filter which is good for sports like hockey with a pronounced line in the middle. The Pro does not have a diagonal filter. I think the Pro has the advantage for HD content and likely non-sports SD content over the Gennum since thePro deinterlacing is designed to "comb" much less often. I very much dislike combing for deinterlacing, and so I prefer the Pro deinterlacing.
> 
> To repeat something in one of my recent posts: We recommend that the sources be set to output content at the native resolution for the content, including SD content. Then the Pro NoRing(TM) scales up to 4k.
> 
> When we mention the Pro accepts SD content, it means all SD content.
> 
> I mentioned a 2XXX unit scaling to 1080 before going into the Pro mostly for completeness. I am not recommending you run out an buy a 2143 for this. as the different would be small. The Pro does a very good job scaling SD to 4k, and improving this further is on our to-do list. Not sure when we could get to this though.
> 
> On the question of noise reduction and enhancements: We plan to add spacial image enhancement, and spacial noise reduction. We do not plan to add temporal noise reduction. Now that we have ADTM well in hand these are high priority, right behind our planned pipeline precision improvement taking the entire pipeline to at least 12 bits (current front end is 10-bit).
> 
> The Pro "outputs HDR in a SDR container." For this output mode, only the JVC (that I know of) works with the trick of setting the HDR Flag on even through the Pro is outputs in SDR mode. As mentioned you select a Gamma = 2.4 in the JVC projector for the memory you select with this (I use the "HDR" mode, with Gamma in the Projector = 2.2 since it measured closet to 2.4). This does not work with other products. For example teh Sony forces it HDR tone mapping on if the HDR flag is set. No way to turn off its tone mapping in this case and you do not want to tone map twice.
> 
> Lots of little details. Hopefully I got them all.


Thank you so much for the detail. At work most of our manufacturers are scared to provide high levels of detail about forthcoming changes. This is pretty rare and valuable in this day and age.


----------



## riddle

jrp said:


> I will try to touch on the topics since my last posts.
> 
> In an attempt to simplify setup (and reduce my time on the phone helping setup), I asked Patrick to change the Global EDID to always report HDR/HLG/2020, and turn on HDR Mapping by default, in 122819. Unfortunately it looks like the TVs and projectors are ignoring the Rec 2020 flag (a major mistake in my opinion) and so do not go to Rec 2020 when the Pro output is set to SDR2020 automatically. So people were not actually getting Rec 2020 in the Projector/TV for HDR. Not good. Unfortunately it means my plans to reduce my support load are stymied. So back to default being HDR in gets you HDR out with Tone Mapping off. We will leave the HDR/HLG/2020 EDID flags enabled back to sources so a small victory for reduced setup time.
> 
> We will be adding a few more "direct codes" for me, and others, to help get setup quickly. More on this at a later date.
> 
> If you just received your unit it had older software due to an internal miss communication. One of our internal only tests was broken in 120419 and 121819. I asked out test person to just use 100619 for that test, and she thought I meant test and ship with 100619. Apologizes for this. We have addressed this and are now using 122819. There are improvements in 122819, so you may want to consider upgrading if you received your unit recently.
> 
> Here is a setup tip for the Harmony remote products. The correct way to select an input with a programmable remote is to send the "Input" code, and then the input number. Unfortunately Harmony did not include the "Input" button. If nothing is on the screen sending just the input number works, but if anything is on the screen and you send just a number it will not work and could possibly do something unwanted. The work around is to send a "CLR" code to clear any onscreen display first, and then the input digit. This is especially important after power-on since the OSD should the input on screen, requiring the Input command first, but the CLR command does the job by taking down the OSD so then just the input number is needed. As part of this, I tell my Harmony Elite "no input select needed to the Pro", but then I add both the CLR and input number as commands to achieve a source change. This saves the bit of time needed to send the number by itself and perhaps might prevent an unwanted option.
> 
> Someone asked if deinterlacing applied to 480p. It does not. Deinterlacing is for only interlaced sources. There are 480i60, 576i50, 1080i50, and 1080i60. Progressive sources (480p, 720p, 1080p, 2160p) do not need deinterlacing. The Pro does have a "re-interlace" feature mostly used in Europe. In Europe (and elsewhere) many settop boxes only did a vertical pixel replication for 576i to 576p, instead of deinterlacing. The Pro re-interlacing detects the fields, internally converts back to interlaced, and then does its own deinterlacing.
> 
> Someone noted my earlier posts on Pro deinterlacing versus the "Gennum" in 1080 Radiance products. The Gennum has a diagonal filter which is good for sports like hockey with a pronounced line in the middle. The Pro does not have a diagonal filter. I think the Pro has the advantage for HD content and likely non-sports SD content over the Gennum since thePro deinterlacing is designed to "comb" much less often. I very much dislike combing for deinterlacing, and so I prefer the Pro deinterlacing.
> 
> To repeat something in one of my recent posts: We recommend that the sources be set to output content at the native resolution for the content, including SD content. Then the Pro NoRing(TM) scales up to 4k.
> 
> When we mention the Pro accepts SD content, it means all SD content.
> 
> I mentioned a 2XXX unit scaling to 1080 before going into the Pro mostly for completeness. I am not recommending you run out an buy a 2143 for this. as the different would be small. The Pro does a very good job scaling SD to 4k, and improving this further is on our to-do list. Not sure when we could get to this though.
> 
> On the question of noise reduction and enhancements: We plan to add spacial image enhancement, and spacial noise reduction. We do not plan to add temporal noise reduction. Now that we have ADTM well in hand these are high priority, right behind our planned pipeline precision improvement taking the entire pipeline to at least 12 bits (current front end is 10-bit).
> 
> The Pro "outputs HDR in a SDR container." For this output mode, only the JVC (that I know of) works with the trick of setting the HDR Flag on even through the Pro is outputs in SDR mode. As mentioned you select a Gamma = 2.4 in the JVC projector for the memory you select with this (I use the "HDR" mode, with Gamma in the Projector = 2.2 since it measured closet to 2.4). This does not work with other products. For example teh Sony forces it HDR tone mapping on if the HDR flag is set. No way to turn off its tone mapping in this case and you do not want to tone map twice.
> 
> Lots of little details. Hopefully I got them all.



Hi JRP good luck ans I really appreciate your commitment about support and continuous in improvement of Radiance PRO. May I ask you if there will be some support for HDR10 + in the future update?


thank you


----------



## dgkula

aeneas01 said:


> did you ever resolve this? i'm having the issue excpet my entire screen flashes green... like you i own a 4242 with 18g inputs, apple tv 4k, bjc active cable....


BTW my screen pretty much always flashes green when switching from SDR to HDR. Using Monoprice certified 2m for all interconnects at rack and Ruipro hybrid/fiber from Lumagen to projector. Just switched to the new microcode for 18Ghz outputs and the green is a bit more visible but havent had any instability/dropouts lately.


----------



## Karl Maga

My Radiance Pro 4242-18g arrived this week and was bought from and preconfigured by @Kris Deering who subsequently walked me through the relevant config alterations to my JVC NX7 projector.

I want to comment on two things:
- the 4242-18g certainly improves the images I see from both 1080p and 4K HDR sources.
- Kris’ services made the attainment and system integration a breeze. Additionally I have an optimized solution quickly and hassle free because of his proficiency and expertise.

The Radiance Pro has enhanced my theatre, and professional services enabled me to realize it’s benefits almost immediately. I’d like to thank the manufacturer, and my dealer.


----------



## cargen

Karl Maga said:


> My Radiance Pro 4242-18g arrived this week and was bought from and preconfigured by @Kris Deering who subsequently walked me through the relevant config alterations to my JVC NX7 projector.
> 
> I want to comment on two things:
> - the 4242-18g certainly improves the images I see from both 1080p and 4K HDR sources.
> - Kris’ services made the attainment and system integration a breeze. Additionally I have an optimized solution quickly and hassle free because of his proficiency and expertise.
> 
> The Radiance Pro has enhanced my theatre, and profes
> sional services enabled me to realize it’s benefits almost immediately. I’d like to thank the manufacturer, and my dealer.



Dittos to all of that!!

I owned the Radiance Pro 4242 for several months before I had Kris to my home media room to optimize the Radiance Pro and the rest of my system. 
Kris' expertise with the Radiance Pro transformed complicated (for me) into simple/automatic via the straight forward remote control configs he set up for me.
Especially helpful as I switch back and forth between my two ceiling-mounted 16:9 and 240:1 screens depending upon circumstances.

Can't recommend Kris enough!


----------



## audioguy

cargen said:


> Dittos to all of that!!
> 
> I owned the Radiance Pro 4242 for several months before I had Kris to my home media room to optimize the Radiance Pro and the rest of my system.
> Kris' expertise with the Radiance Pro transformed complicated (for me) into simple/automatic via the straight forward remote control configs he set up for me.
> *Especially helpful as I switch back and forth between my two ceiling-mounted 16:9 and 240:1 screens *depending upon circumstances.
> 
> Can't recommend Kris enough!



That is a VERY wide screen !!!


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> I have a question about this. Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying, but it seems you're saying 122819 broke sdr2020?
> 
> I'm confused because in my setup I haven't noticed any difference with respect to this. My Sony still claims its getting 2020 when I bring up the info menu. And the lumagen status info still looks as it always has when I'm doing hdr->sdr.
> 
> Chris, slightly confused


The 122819 release *only* changes the Factory Defaults. It was my attempt to simplify setup. It would have worked if projectors and TVs actually did what they should do and pay attention to the Rec 2020 flag. They don't. So backing this change to default settings out in the next release.

If you already had your setup working there is no change (other than the DTM improvements in 122819).


----------



## jrp

Tech Tip:

I believe I have touched on using SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1 before, but if you do not have a JVC projector, you can simplify your interface, assuming your projector is reasonably accurate in Rec 2020 mode (e.g. Sony 4k projectors), by doing the following:

CMS0 is used for SDR 709 content, and would normally be set to Colorspace = SDR709. However since typically CMS1 (HDR content) is set to Colorspace = SDR2020, and since TVs/projectors apparently do not pay attention to the Rec 2020 Info Frame Flag, this means you have to somehow change the color format to get accurate colors. This is reasonably straight forward if you have a control system (e.g. Crestron, Control4, et. al.). However if you do not have a bidirectional control system (RS232 both to and from the Pro) you would have to do this manually.

By setting CMS0 to SDR2020 (with "Auto Convert" of color data enabled), this is the same format as the Pro would use for "HDR output in a SDR container." So if you set both CMS0 and CMS1 output to SDR2020, you do not need to change the projector color mode when switching to or from HDR. Nice if you have been doing this manually, since you can't forget, and you do not need to train others in your family to make the change.

In addition, if you want HDR to be brighter than SDR, you can turn the "White Level" down in CMS0 and leave the lamp mode the same as for HDR. These two changes together mean you would not have to make a manual change in the projector switching SDR to or from HDR.

==== 

As mentioned previously, if you have a projector that only can produce colors out to Rec 709 (or less), instead set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace to SDR709, and enable Auto Convert of the color data. I have helped dealers and customers switch to SDR709 for both CMS0 and CMS1 for these type of projectors,and many cases report an instant improvement for HDR colors. The reason is it seems while many projectors report they can take Rec 2020, that they do not do the correct math to make these colors look as they should within the bounds of the projector's actual color Gamut. This also has the added advantage of not having to manually change the projectors color space as discussed above.


----------



## jrp

On the topic of HDR10+:

We are considering adding HDR10+. However, I currently believe that the Pro's adaptive DTM is so good there may be little to no benefit from doing so.

HDR10+ has a MaxCLL per scene. However, given how poorly the studios are doing getting the single MaxCLL number for the entire movie correct, it remains to be seen if they can get the MaxCLL for every scene correct.

HDR10+ has only a handful of scene MaxCLL values available. Not quite sure why they decided to limit this so much.

The dynamic Metadata for HDR10+ is on a scene by scene basis (although I think it could be done on a frame by frame basis in the future). We have found that adapting every frame within every scene is very important.

The ADTM in the Radiance Pro selects the scene MaxCLL in 10 nit steps, and then the adaptation changes each frame's MaxCLL in as little as 10 nit steps.

==== 

Conclusion:

If we were to implement HDR10+ we would use its dynamic Metadata as a hint, but we would still be doing ADTM using the Radiance Pro algorithm on top of HDR10+.

Could the HDR10+ Metadata be more accurate than the Pro's ADTM analysis of the scene? Perhaps, but I do not think by much.

While the jury is still out on if we will implement HDR10+, it may be as Thanos, inevitable.


----------



## bobof

riddle said:


> May I ask you if there will be some support for HDR10 + in the future update?


Out of interest - what sources are currently able to do HDR10+ over HDMI? I know some disc players are capable - are there any streaming providers outputting HDR10+ via players that could be plugged into a Radiance Pro via HDMI? Which ones? Thanks!


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> On the topic of HDR10+:
> 
> We are considering adding HDR10+.


That would be awesome. Would love to throw in a HDR10+ disc and compare it to ADTM.


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> Tech Tip:
> 
> By setting CMS0 to SDR2020 (with "Auto Convert" of color data enabled), this is the same format as the Pro would use for "HDR output in a SDR container." So if you set both CMS0 and CMS1 output to SDR2020, you do not need to change the projector color mode when switching to or from HDR.


What´s the main benefit out of this? Faster sync times or better colour reproduction?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

With some displays this will give faster sync times. If the LUT in the Pro is created to target 2020 well then probably no difference to little difference in colour accuracy i'd think. If no LUT in use and just using the displays REC2020 colour space then how accurate REC709 will be compared to the native REC709 space of the display depends entirely on how accurate both the REC709 colourspace and REC2020 colourspace are displayed on that device in the first place.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> To get an accurate maximum light reading you need to measure with your color probe point at the screen. Not sure your "pixel" is capable of a good reading (although maybe it can. Not really familiar with it).
> 
> Note that a screen "gain" of 1.0 does not mean the screen reflects 100% of the light back (not even a mirror does this). What it means is the screen has the same reflectively of a matte sheet of white paper. With a "gain" of 1.4 you are getting 40% more light than off a sheet of paper (within the specified viewing angle). So multiplying the light approaching the screen with probe pointing back at the projector is definitely not an accurate way to figure out the light coming back off the screen.
> 
> If you tell me what projector you have, its Lumens rating, the screen size and the "gain" of the screen (1.4 per post), I might be able to give you an approximation of the maximum light output off the screen.


thanks, not sure how to measure light reflecting back from the screen with my phone since the phone uses the camera as the sensor but holding it in front of the screen (assuming a few inches away?) creates a shadow so not sure how you would do that? other posts i've read is you hold the meter sensor towards the projector at the screen. how would any sensor measure what's being reflected back from a projector without casting a shadow?

I have the benq LK990 rated at 6,000 lumens, 120" black diamond screen innovations ALR 1.4 gain.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

can i use Gamma factor to change projector gamma from 2.2 to 2.4? 

For SDR, I think I should be in 2.2 right? but for HDR 2.4? And rather than change projector settings, can I use gamma factor? So for cms0 for HDR content, does gamme factor of 1.09 multiply my current gamma of 2.2 on the projector to 2.398?

Just trying to automate things a bit so I don't have to do a projector blackout and programming of my control4 system.


----------



## darksets

I just noticed a problem with the auto aspect ratio function. The radiance pro fails to detect the aspect ratio of the 4k version of the movie "2001:A Space Odyssey" and shows it letterboxed in the middle of the screen.


----------



## KarlKlammer

riddle said:


> Hi, could I ask how many of you are using Lumagen radiance PRO in combination with HTPC MadVR Nvidia GPU? Whether it makes any sense and added some values.


Out of curiosity, I did this a few days ago. This experiment renewed my respect for the performance of the Radiance as a complete package. At this time, I see no advantage for me for an HTPC.


----------



## venkatesh_m

KarlKlammer said:


> Out of curiosity, I did this a few days ago. This experiment renewed my respect for the performance of the Radiance as a complete package. At this time, I see no advantage for me for an HTPC.


I know this is subjective, but how is your take on the DTM on the JVC compared to the madVR/Lumagen in your opinion?


----------



## riddle

venkatesh_m said:


> I know this is subjective, but how is your take on the DTM on the JVC compared to the madVR/Lumagen in your opinion?





I personally see the difference between JVC DTM and Lumagen. Its looks thas JVC DTM cannot display as much detail as Lumagen while the image from Lumagen is very clear and natural.


----------



## tnaik4

gadgetfreaky said:


> jrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> To get an accurate maximum light reading you need to measure with your color probe point at the screen. Not sure your "pixel" is capable of a good reading (although maybe it can. Not really familiar with it).
> 
> Note that a screen "gain" of 1.0 does not mean the screen reflects 100% of the light back (not even a mirror does this). What it means is the screen has the same reflectively of a matte sheet of white paper. With a "gain" of 1.4 you are getting 40% more light than off a sheet of paper (within the specified viewing angle). So multiplying the light approaching the screen with probe pointing back at the projector is definitely not an accurate way to figure out the light coming back off the screen.
> 
> If you tell me what projector you have, its Lumens rating, the screen size and the "gain" of the screen (1.4 per post), I might be able to give you an approximation of the maximum light output off the screen.
> 
> 
> 
> thanks, not sure how to measure light reflecting back from the screen with my phone since the phone uses the camera as the sensor but holding it in front of the screen (assuming a few inches away?) creates a shadow so not sure how you would do that? other posts i've read is you hold the meter sensor towards the projector at the screen. how would any sensor measure what's being reflected back from a projector without casting a shadow?
> 
> I have the benq LK990 rated at 6,000 lumens, 120" black diamond screen innovations ALR 1.4 gain.
Click to expand...

In order to measure off the screen u need to tilt the meter upward so it wont measure its own shadow, just aim it with a 110-120degree angle and put it around 3-4 feet back , this way it ll meausre it of the screen.
Not sure how accurate a phone is though, u could buy an i1d3 for not much and it ll give way better readings than a phone.


----------



## KarlKlammer

venkatesh_m said:


> I know this is subjective, but how is your take on the DTM on the JVC compared to the madVR/Lumagen in your opinion?


 Here is an example for Frame Adapt vs. DTM (prior to the current adaptive implementation on the Radiance).

https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxt...html?uid=3442e3ca-f42d-11e9-b9b8-0edaf8f81e27
Please note that this is not brightness matched, but with identical iris position in both cases. Both pictures were taken with identical exposure times (the Radiance image on screen is not too dark). 

In my opinion Frame Adapt is a major step and nearly plug and play HDR. But it cannot match Radiance DTM. You see this especially when it comes to highlights.


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> Out of curiosity, I did this a few days ago. This experiment renewed my respect for the performance of the Radiance as a complete package. At this time, I see no advantage for me for an HTPC.



I second what you 're saying, although I am still a little bit puzzled by the "Adaptive" option on some scenes Karl.


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> I second what you 're saying, although I am still a little bit puzzled by the "Adaptive" option on some scenes Karl.


Did you come across a sudden "dimming" within a scene?
I noticed this with Beta 120419, but not with 122819 yet.


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> Did you come across a sudden "dimming" within a scene?
> I noticed this with Beta 120419, but not with 122819 yet.


Please see my post here. I am waiting for anyone to test the particular scene. I see a candidate.


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> Please see my post here. I am waiting for anyone to test the particular scene. I see a candidate.


Ah, I missed that. But to test it, it would require for me to have this episode in my collection.


----------



## docrog

loggeo said:


> Please see my post here. I am waiting for anyone to test the particular scene. I see a candidate.


Could you please mention again what specific scene you're referring to? The only "torture test" scene that I could find posted by you was GOT, season 8, episode 3, but GOT is SDR on HBO (at least, for me) so adaptive HDR isn't relevant. Thanks.


----------



## loggeo

docrog said:


> Could you please mention again what specific scene you're referring to? The only "torture test" scene that I could find posted by you was GOT, season 8, episode 3, but GOT is SDR on HBO (at least, for me) so adaptive HDR isn't relevant. Thanks.



GOT Season 8 is also available on uhd bluray. And it looks really good too!


----------



## docrog

loggeo said:


> GOT Season 8 is also available on uhd bluray. And it looks really good too!


Thanks for that clarification. Sorry that I can't help you because I don't own the Blu Ray.


----------



## loggeo

docrog said:


> Thanks for that clarification. Sorry that I can't help you because I don't own the Blu Ray.



No worries!


----------



## dgkula

Anyone with a JVC RS420/520/620 or similar - what are you using for gamma and lens aperture. I am using gamma 2.4 in a custom slot and Auto2


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 010220*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*FW 010220*
Posted 011320 
Added some direct codes to aid in initial HDR mapping setup from factory reset. 
All these codes enable HDR mapping
"menu 0890" : CMS0 colorspace=SDR709, CMS1=SDR709 with HDR flag=Off
"menu 0892" : CMS0 colorspace=SDR709, CMS1=SDR2020 with HDR flag=Off
"menu 0893" : CMS0 colorspace=SDR2020, CMS1=SDR2020 with HDR flag=Off
"menu 0896" : CMS0 colorspace=SDR709, CMS1=SDR2020 with HDR flag=On
"menu 0897" : CMS0 colorspace=SDR2020, CMS1=SDR2020 with HDR flag=On
No need to update from 122819 unless just starting setup. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


It looks like the "beta" has been dropped from the name of recent FW updates.


----------



## audioguy

^^ Now I'm two updates behind. But I installed some updated parameters I got from Craig Rounds (e.g. set Dpad to 1) and all I can say is 'WOW". I looked as some dark scenes in some clips from various movies and the image is just amazing. The improvements I have seen in this product since I bought it are incredible.


----------



## jrp

Everyone:

As an engineer, I am not all that great at marketing but sometimes I have to put my marketing hat on.

On that subject, we have been getting rave reviews on the latest Radiance Pro software. Mostly the ADTM, but also the other features as well. If you are willing to be quoted on the nice things you have said (or have thought but not posted) about the Radiance Pro, and Lumagen, it would be helpful to us if you can send a quote to us, along with how you would want your name noted (name or handle) to our support at-sign Lumagen.com email.

We would sure appreciate the support, and it would help us update the Lumagen website.

Thanks for your consideration and support of Lumagen.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Karl Maga said:


> My Radiance Pro 4242-18g arrived this week and was bought from and preconfigured by @Kris Deering who subsequently walked me through the relevant config alterations to my JVC NX7 projector.
> 
> I want to comment on two things:
> - the 4242-18g certainly improves the images I see from both 1080p and 4K HDR sources.
> - Kris’ services made the attainment and system integration a breeze. Additionally I have an optimized solution quickly and hassle free because of his proficiency and expertise.
> 
> The Radiance Pro has enhanced my theatre, and professional services enabled me to realize it’s benefits almost immediately. I’d like to thank the manufacturer, and my dealer.


yup, Kris was awesome. I still tweak and tune the radiance but saved me countless hours. As for the radiance pro, all I regret is not buying it earlier. It has made every picture better. Old and new, it's night and day, worth every penny. Timing of getting it as DTM is being rolled out was perfect timing. More so,it's so impressive that they keep updating and tweaking and listen to customers. I'm telling everyone it's been the best upgrade. Hope they keep it up.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> Tech Tip:
> 
> I believe I have touched on using SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1 before, but if you do not have a JVC projector, you can simplify your interface, assuming your projector is reasonably accurate in Rec 2020 mode (e.g. Sony 4k projectors), by doing the following:
> 
> CMS0 is used for SDR 709 content, and would normally be set to Colorspace = SDR709. However since typically CMS1 (HDR content) is set to Colorspace = SDR2020, and since TVs/projectors apparently do not pay attention to the Rec 2020 Info Frame Flag, this means you have to somehow change the color format to get accurate colors. This is reasonably straight forward if you have a control system (e.g. Crestron, Control4, et. al.). However if you do not have a bidirectional control system (RS232 both to and from the Pro) you would have to do this manually.
> 
> By setting CMS0 to SDR2020 (with "Auto Convert" of color data enabled), this is the same format as the Pro would use for "HDR output in a SDR container." So if you set both CMS0 and CMS1 output to SDR2020, you do not need to change the projector color mode when switching to or from HDR. Nice if you have been doing this manually, since you can't forget, and you do not need to train others in your family to make the change.
> 
> In addition, if you want HDR to be brighter than SDR, you can turn the "White Level" down in CMS0 and leave the lamp mode the same as for HDR. These two changes together mean you would not have to make a manual change in the projector switching SDR to or from HDR.
> 
> ====
> 
> As mentioned previously, if you have a projector that only can produce colors out to Rec 709 (or less), instead set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace to SDR709, and enable Auto Convert of the color data. I have helped dealers and customers switch to SDR709 for both CMS0 and CMS1 for these type of projectors,and many cases report an instant improvement for HDR colors. The reason is it seems while many projectors report they can take Rec 2020, that they do not do the correct math to make these colors look as they should within the bounds of the projector's actual color Gamut. This also has the added advantage of not having to manually change the projectors color space as discussed above.


Thanks you for this! I'm in the latter camp with BenQ LK990 rec 709. What about gamma? I thought HDR you'd want 2.4 Gamma but for SDR 2.2 ?


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> Thanks you for this! I'm in the latter camp with BenQ LK990 rec 709. What about gamma? I thought HDR you'd want 2.4 Gamma but for SDR 2.2 ?


Typically for SDR target is Bt.1886 (close to 2.4), although some experts target 2.4 or even 2.6 for SDR movies.

We did the Tone Mapping Linear Gamma "re-Gamma" to SDR assuming the projector/TV is calibrated to a straight 2.4 Gamma.


----------



## jh901

loggeo said:


> GOT Season 8 is also available on uhd bluray. And it looks really good too!


Hopefully everyone who's got many tens of thousands into a front projection home theater is buying physical disc UHD. Good grief, all of that time and money into electronics, etc and then skimp on content. Sigh!


----------



## Kelvin1965S

jh901 said:


> Hopefully everyone who's got many tens of thousands into a front projection home theater is buying physical disc UHD. Good grief, all of that time and money into electronics, etc and then skimp on content. Sigh!


I rent my discs (rarely watch a film twice, at least for many years) and I have 4K Netflix & Amazon video accounts, so have plenty of content to watch and use my Lumagen DTM with. I do buy some concert discs though, but when I put those on I'm usually playing along with them on my guitar, so they may as well be DVDs.


----------



## loggeo

jh901 said:


> Hopefully everyone who's got many tens of thousands into a front projection home theater is buying physical disc UHD. Good grief, all of that time and money into electronics, etc and then skimp on content. Sigh!



On the other hand I look at my library and see for example that I have Braveheart on dvd, bluray and uhd. Paid it 3 times. Sigh!


----------



## ht guy

Hey guys, just wondering if someone here could give me some quick setup tips until I can get Craig Rounds into our theater. (We've got a call scheduled for today to get something set up.)

I've got a JVC NX-7, DCR and a 4242 with 2 18 ghz input cards.

Source devices are Oppo 205, Panasonic UB9000 and AppleTV running through a Yamaha CX-A5200 pre/pro.

I'v been trying to get through this thread (on about post 5100) and have done searches, but relatively empty-handed so far...

I've seen Jim's responses for other PJs, just not the NX-7/RS2000.

I understand I need to turn off all anamorphic options on the NX7, and run video through the 4242 and audio to the Yamaha, but beyond that...


----------



## audioguy

ht guy said:


> Hey guys, just wondering if someone here could give me some quick setup tips until I can get Craig Rounds into our theater. (We've got a call scheduled for today to get something set up.)
> 
> I've got a JVC NX-7, DCR and a 4242 with 2 18 ghz input cards.
> 
> Source devices are Oppo 205, Panasonic UB9000 and AppleTV running through a Yamaha CX-A5200 pre/pro.
> 
> I'v been trying to get through this thread (on about post 5100) and have done searches, but relatively empty-handed so far...
> 
> I've seen Jim's responses for other PJs, just not the NX-7/RS2000.
> 
> I understand I need to turn off all anamorphic options on the NX7, and run video through the 4242 and audio to the Yamaha, but beyond that...


Seems you know about the same amount about video that I do. I also purchased mine from Craig and it arrived before he did. Over the phone he will be able to get you started using Dynamic Tone Mapping - even without being in front of his own Lumagen will tell you which button to push on the remote and in what order. (And probably a few more settings in your NX7). Shouldn't take more then a few moments. Then when he gets to your home he can perform his full magic.

You will ABSOLUTELY love it!!!


----------



## ht guy

audioguy said:


> Seems you know about the same amount about video that I do. I also purchased mine from Craig and it arrived before he did. Over the phone he will be able to get you started using Dynamic Tone Mapping - even without being in front of his own Lumagen will tell you which button to push on the remote and in what order. (And probably a few more settings in your NX7). Shouldn't take more then a few moments. Then when he gets to your home he can perform his full magic.
> 
> You will ABSOLUTELY love it!!!


Thanks, @audioguy! My focus thus far has also been on audio.

and hey, NO PRESSURE, @CIR-Engineering!


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.
I am interested in Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have some questions to ask.

1.Since my prepro is HDMI 1.4, I must split HDMI signal on Lumagen, video to projector(Sony 695ES) and audio only to prepro.
With latest firmware, does it have any problems with Apple TV 4k especially HDMI handshaking issues?
I heard from my friends about 1 year ago that it had a lot of problems especially HDMI handshaking issues.

2.If I connect PS4 pro or Xbox one X to Lumagen and split HDMI signal, video to projector and audio only to prepro.
With full calibration and dynamic tone mapping on Lumagen, can the input lag be increased?

Thank you for your help.


----------



## docrog

ht guy said:


> Hey guys, just wondering if someone here could give me some quick setup tips until I can get Craig Rounds into our theater. (We've got a call scheduled for today to get something set up.)
> 
> I've got a JVC NX-7, DCR and a 4242 with 2 18 ghz input cards.
> 
> Source devices are Oppo 205, Panasonic UB9000 and AppleTV running through a Yamaha CX-A5200 pre/pro.
> 
> I'v been trying to get through this thread (on about post 5100) and have done searches, but relatively empty-handed so far...
> 
> I've seen Jim's responses for other PJs, just not the NX-7/RS2000.
> 
> I understand I need to turn off all anamorphic options on the NX7, and run video through the 4242 and audio to the Yamaha, but beyond that...


I'm also awaiting Craig's visit next week to calibrate the Lumagen. So far, my configuration has the Pro located *between* the Yamaha RX-A3080 (similar to your CX-A5200) and my NX7. It has been *ENTIRELY* stable with no appreciable switching delay issues. I'm still very much hoping that this will continue to be my final video chain, as it avoids any audio loop back from the Pro and allows the Yamaha GUI/OSD to be utilized.

I can't honestly say that there has been an appreciable difference in PQ compared to how the NX7 looked before the Lumagen was added, but since the Pro hasn't been calibrated I'm (obviously) withholding any judgement, especially because of the many highly positive reviews on these forums. 

BTW, the only significant change that Craig suggested in our recent conversation was related to the need to enable the HDR flag in SDR output if your firmware is the December upgrade; the Pro now sends out HDR in an SDR envelope by default, so the NX7 won't otherwise go into HDR (it will be YUV SDR BT.2020). You should be able to note this if you go to the info sub-menu and look at what color space is listed for the output or look at the NX7 info sub-menu to see your input. This doesn't seem to be an issue if you're running the October firmware update for adaptive DTM, since I believe that HDR output was default at that time.


----------



## Kris Deering

Hey everyone. I thought I'd chime in to talk about a few features that may have fallen under the radar that have been added recently (and will be with a FW coming very soon). After what felt like an eternity of tone map tuning, I asked Jim and Pat to add a few features that made overall operability a little nicer. Here is a rundown of a few:

If you go to Menu->Options->IO setup you can now change how the remote works in some ways that some may find handy. Available already is the ability to change the behavior of the 1.85 aspect button on the remote to work the same as the other aspect buttons (to deliver TRUE 1.85:1 for those using a scope screen). Before it was designed for a letterbox approach for old DVDs. With the update that is coming in the very near future, I also asked them to give the option to change the 2.35 button to 2.40 (this will be an option in that menu) since there is just about zero content shot in true 2.35. This eliminates the need to hit ALT->2.35 any time you want to force 2.40 (none of this changes the auto aspect functions which will select the aspect properly by detection, this is just for forcing aspects). 

I also asked them to add the ability to change the right arrow from just doing Darbee setup to now giving the option to set it to access instantly the test pattern suite. Some may find this handy as the first pattern that comes up is a great pattern for checking your focus, but you can scan through all the test patterns. This is already available now but the upcoming firmware will allow you to set it up so that you can view the ADJUSTABLE test patterns or the REFERENCE test patterns. Adjustable allows you to view the patterns with your current calibration applied, Reference does not apply the calibration. 

Last up is you can change the up and down arrows to cycle through the aspect ratios on the fly. Originally the arrows were tied to the ZOOM settings, but you can opt for either now in the menu. This makes it easy to cycle through the aspects without having to memorize the different aspect keys at the top of the remote. 

Once again, a big thanks to Jim and Pat for taking all these inputs into consideration and adding new features to make this product even better and easier to use!


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Last up is you can change the up and down arrows to cycle through the aspect ratios on the fly. Originally the arrows were tied to the ZOOM settings, but you can opt for either now in the menu. This makes it easy to cycle through the aspects without having to memorize the different aspect keys at the top of the remote.


Kris, I've never made use of the "zoom" function for my 1.85 screen. In what setting would it be utilized if I'm never purposefully changing aspect ratios?


----------



## Kris Deering

Zoom is just a generic zoom like you find on flat panels. It wouldn't help with a 1.85:1 screen. But Craig could setup your Lumagen output for a 1.85 screen to that you have a bit more width for any aspect greater than 16x9 and still maintain proper aspect for 16x9 (small black slivers on the sides) if you'd like.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Zoom is just a generic zoom like you find on flat panels. It wouldn't help with a 1.85:1 screen. But Craig could setup your Lumagen output for a 1.85 screen so that you have a bit more width for any aspect greater than 16x9 and still maintain proper aspect for 16x9 (small black slivers on the sides) if you'd like.


Thanks for that prompt response! Perhaps you could mention it to Craig if he hasn't already returned to Chicago; otherwise I'll bring it up with him when he's here next week.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Craig Rounds*



ht guy said:


> Thanks, @audioguy! My focus thus far has also been on audio.
> 
> and hey, NO PRESSURE, @ Craig Rounds! (couldn't figure out his username here to tag him...)


 @CIR-Engineering I think


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 011020*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*FW 011020*
Posted 011620 
Fix to adaptive DTM for an incorrect brightness change. 
Fix for problems using right arrow for test pattern command. 
Some additional options added to *Other: I/O Setup: Remote Ctl *menu. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *FW 011020*
> Posted 011620
> Fix to adaptive DTM for an incorrect brightness change.
> Fix for problems using right arrow for test pattern command.
> Some additional options added to *Other: I/O Setup: Remote Ctl *menu.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


This has the new features I talked about a few posts up. This also fixes the brightness jump reported here before that occurs in Casino Royale (and probably fixes other jumps in software that haven't been reported).


----------



## Des511

Fantastic service once again from Lumagen.


----------



## Vinturbo

Kris Deering said:


> This has the new features I talked about a few posts up. This also fixes the brightness jump reported here before that occurs in Casino Royale (and probably fixes other jumps in software that haven't been reported).


very well !! Thanks to Lumagen


----------



## CIR-Engineering

ht guy said:


> Thanks, @audioguy! My focus thus far has also been on audio.
> 
> and hey, NO PRESSURE, @CIR-Engineering!


Thanks for the plug  I don't frequent the forums much anymore so it's nice when folks mention me. I've been working with Lumagen since the inception of the company twenty years ago, was hired by Jim (the CEO) to help man their booth at CEDIA a number of years ago, I help with product development, and as such am intimately familiar with the Lumagen product line inside and out. I also work with pretty much any projectors out there including the newest models and still maintain front projection CRT. I myself have a JVC RS3000 and Sony G90 CRT in my theater room. I love all things video! Lately it's been a lot of Sony, JVC, and Barco models.

I just spent the past few days at Kris Deering's house and we went over a lot of stuff. I helped him with LightSpace, and he uncovered a few new ideas for me on JVC projectors. We also worked on finding Lumagen bugs and making improvements there. It was a fun trip for us both and I think it was quite mutually beneficial.

Anyway, I'm always around if people need me.

ind regards,
craigr


----------



## CIR-Engineering

Mike_WI said:


> @CIR-Engineering I think


Thanks Mike!

craigr


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Last up is you can change the up and down arrows to cycle through the aspect ratios on the fly. Originally the arrows were tied to the ZOOM settings, but you can opt for either now in the menu. This makes it easy to cycle through the aspects without having to memorize the different aspect keys at the top of the remote.
> 
> Once again, a big thanks to Jim and Pat for taking all these inputs into consideration and adding new features to make this product even better and easier to use!


Awesome update, working great here. Having a mask screen hooked up to the aspect out from the Lumagen works great with the new aspect up / down arrow key function.
It would be really quite nice to be able to remove some aspects from the list it goes through - there are at least two aspects in there that aren't applicable to my system I'd like to remove for neatness.


----------



## fatherom

Forgive the noob question...I should probably know this. 

If I have a 16:9 screen, in what situations would I want to use the aspect ratio buttons? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CIR-Engineering

bobof said:


> Awesome update, working great here. Having a mask screen hooked up to the aspect out from the Lumagen works great with the new aspect up / down arrow key function.
> It would be really quite nice to be able to remove some aspects from the list it goes through - there are at least two aspects in there that aren't applicable to my system I'd like to remove for neatness.


I'll talk to Pat about that. It's a very reasonable and good idea!

Best,
craigr


----------



## CIR-Engineering

fatherom said:


> Forgive the noob question...I should probably know this.
> 
> If I have a 16:9 screen, in what situations would I want to use the aspect ratio buttons?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most likely you would not want to use them... There are some scenarios, but the only obvious one would be to fit 4x3 back into 16x9 if your source stretches 4x3. You could also use 1.85, but I prefer to just live with the small black bars at the top and bottom on a 16x9 screen.

craigr


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last up is you can change the up and down arrows to cycle through the aspect ratios on the fly. Originally the arrows were tied to the ZOOM settings, but you can opt for either now in the menu. This makes it easy to cycle through the aspects without having to memorize the different aspect keys at the top of the remote.
> 
> Once again, a big thanks to Jim and Pat for taking all these inputs into consideration and adding new features to make this product even better and easier to use!
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome update, working great here. Having a mask screen hooked up to the aspect out from the Lumagen works great with the new aspect up / down arrow key function.
> It would be really quite nice to be able to remove some aspects from the list it goes through - there are at least two aspects in there that aren't applicable to my system I'd like to remove for neatness.
Click to expand...

Agree. I had already mentioned this before. Look for some changes to that soon.


----------



## docrog

Is the Pro capable of displaying the bit rate of the incoming video signal?


----------



## uderman

docrog said:


> Is the Pro capable of displaying the bit rate of the incoming video signal?


No it does not. It is not possible to implement this as it needs to be done before decoding in the streamer/disc player.


----------



## docrog

uderman said:


> No it does not. It is not possible to implement this as it needs to be done before decoding in the streamer/disc player.


That's what I thought. I was hoping to be able to identify whether there was any difference in the bit rate transmission of the same UHD movie (redeemed on MA) between iTunes on ATV4K and Vudu on Roku. It seems that neither of those streaming devices display bit rate output.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I had already mentioned this before. Look for some changes to that soon.


After playing around a bit more with it (and discovering a bug in my control setup with aspects I wasn't expecting!) I realise that the order it goes through the aspects is a bit... quirky...
16x9 -> 1.85A -> 1.85 -> 2.35 -> 2.40 -> 2.0 -> 2.2 -> 4:3 -> LBOX. 
It would seem to make more sense to me for it to go in increasing ratio and loop at the end, and be able to disable ratios as desired. As I cursor up through the ratios it makes my masks do a right merry old dance... 
On my system I'd be looking to get rid of 1.85A, 4:3 and LBOX and would prefer the ratios under cursor control to go 16x9 -> 1.85 -> 2.0 -> 2.2 -> 2.35 -> 2.40 as I have those presets setup in my mask system.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> That's what I thought. I was hoping to be able to identify whether there was any difference in the bit rate transmission of the same UHD movie (redeemed on MA) between iTunes on ATV4K and Vudu on Roku. It seems that neither of those streaming devices display bit rate output.


On the AppleTV4k you can enable the developer heads up display (a yellow text overlay over the media playback) which will show you the bitrate for playing content. You'll need a Mac and the Xcode developer environment (free download) to be able to do this.

On the Roku I don't think there is any way to enable this info, but maybe there is (I'm not very familiar with Roku units).

You could also use a router that allows you to monitor the bitrates of individual network streams and monitor it at the network level. You wouldn't be able to discern the difference between video and audio that way, though - it would all be lumped together in one figure.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> On the AppleTV4k you can enable the developer heads up display (a yellow text overlay over the media playback) which will show you the bitrate for playing content. You'll need a Mac and the Xcode developer environment (free download) to be able to do this.
> 
> On the Roku I don't think there is any way to enable this info, but maybe there is (I'm not very familiar with Roku units).
> 
> You could also use a router that allows you to monitor the bitrates of individual network streams and monitor it at the network level. You wouldn't be able to discern the difference between video and audio that way, though - it would all be lumped together in one figure.


All above me pay grade, but thanks! Unless someone actually has the answer I'll have to assume that they both output similarly (or that MA provides only 1 bit rate and both are capable of that pipe). I can't see a significant difference between them (in terms of compression artifacts, banding, etc.), so I guess they are equally comparable.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> After playing around a bit more with it (and discovering a bug in my control setup with aspects I wasn't expecting!) I realise that the order it goes through the aspects is a bit... quirky...
> 16x9 -> 1.85A -> 1.85 -> 2.35 -> 2.40 -> 2.0 -> 2.2 -> 4:3 -> LBOX.
> It would seem to make more sense to me for it to go in increasing ratio and loop at the end, and be able to disable ratios as desired. As I cursor up through the ratios it makes my masks do a right merry old dance...
> On my system I'd be looking to get rid of 1.85A, 4:3 and LBOX and would prefer the ratios under cursor control to go 16x9 -> 1.85 -> 2.0 -> 2.2 -> 2.35 -> 2.40 as I have those presets setup in my mask system.


Yes, the order was commented on as well. Pat and I discussed at length which aspects should stay/go for the arrows. This is what it looks like it will end up as: 4x3, 16x9, 1.85, 2.0, 2.2, 2.4

This gets rid of some of the older aspects for letterbox systems and 2.35, which is EXTREMELY rare in actual content and close enough to 2.4 to just stick with that.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> All above me pay grade, but thanks! Unless someone actually has the answer I'll have to assume that they both output similarly (or that MA provides only 1 bit rate and both are capable of that pipe). I can't see a significant difference between them (in terms of compression artifacts, banding, etc.), so I guess they are equally comparable.


output bitrate has far more to do with the streaming service than the box. The box is more about ease of use, features enabled per service, and supplementary service/features. I believe ATV offers better HDR/Atmos support across apps than Roku at the moment, but it has been a little bit since I looked. I got a Roku to test over the holidays and it didn't support as many features as ATV for that sort of stuff.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Yes, the order was commented on as well. Pat and I discussed at length which aspects should stay/go for the arrows. This is what it looks like it will end up as: 4x3, 16x9, 1.85, 2.0, 2.2, 2.4
> 
> This gets rid of some of the older aspects for letterbox systems and 2.35, which is EXTREMELY rare in actual content and close enough to 2.4 to just stick with that.


I guess that would be a fair bit better that current 

4:3 is a bit of an oddball as it doesn't work the same as the rest of the aspects.
The other aspects assume input is letterboxed.
4:3 assumes the input is full frame 4:3 as opposed to pillarboxed even if the input resolution is obviously 16:9. On my system (which I'll happily admit may not be 100% optimally set up here) selecting 4:3 ends up visually messy with the full input frame "squished" horizontally into the 4:3 frame.

Do you know if there is a way to prevent 4:3 from doing that?


----------



## DannyBoy73

bobof said:


> You could also use a router that allows you to monitor the bitrates of individual network streams and monitor it at the network level. You wouldn't be able to discern the difference between video and audio that way, though - it would all be lumped together in one figure.


Could you provide some more info on this? Are you suggesting a router can show what bitrate the video/network player is streaming content at from a provider?


----------



## docrog

Is calibration of the Radiance Pro on an input-by-input basis or only once per Lumagen? Is the display's calibration relevant to Lumagen calibration and, if so, does the display calibration precede that of the Lumagen?


----------



## scrowe

docrog said:


> Is calibration of the Radiance Pro on an input-by-input basis or only once per Lumagen? Is the display's calibration relevant to Lumagen calibration and, if so, does the display calibration precede that of the Lumagen?


My understanding is that a well trod method is to calibrate the display device as much as possible using its native tools. The Lumagen is then used to correct anything further that cannot be done natively. Then you are free to make further changes on a per input/memory basis if the input devices have flaws. To what level this 3rd per input calibration is taken is dependent on the calibrator. I think the basic calibration is primarily aimed at the display/Lumagen combination.


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Could you provide some more info on this? Are you suggesting a router can show what bitrate the video/network player is streaming content at from a provider?


Exactly that; you need a router that can show some kind of bandwidth utilisation (either total traffic in / out which you'd have to divide by the amount of time played, or some even show it as average bitrate). Some routers will show this per IP and some even per connection over a given port. Of course doing it this way means you either need a quiet network or need to put a router in place just for the purpose of doing this monitoring. It's not hard if you mess around with this sort of stuff "for fun". But at the same time, it's really all a bit "don't care". There are many other reasons to choose one player over another without getting into whether one streams at slightly higher bitrate than another.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> My understanding is that a well trod method is to calibrate the display device as much as possible using its native tools. The Lumagen is then used to correct anything further that cannot be done natively. Then you are free to make further changes on a per input/memory basis if the input devices have flaws. To what level this 3rd per input calibration is taken is dependent on the calibrator. I think the basic calibration is primarily aimed at the display/Lumagen combination.


If you're doing 3DLUT based correction the best approach may be to get the display into whatever mode is most linear, which may well not be very calibrated at all, and to use as few of the controls as possible as they often have unintended consequences. For example on my X7900 I'm using profile off with just the peak white adjusted to D65 and no gamma correction. Everything is then just taken care of int he Lumagen 1D/3D LUTs.


----------



## DannyBoy73

bobof said:


> Exactly that; you need a router that can show some kind of bandwidth utilisation (either total traffic in / out which you'd have to divide by the amount of time played, or some even show it as average bitrate). Some routers will show this per IP and some even per connection over a given port. Of course doing it this way means you either need a quiet network or need to put a router in place just for the purpose of doing this monitoring. It's not hard if you mess around with this sort of stuff "for fun". But at the same time, it's really all a bit "don't care". There are many other reasons to choose one player over another without getting into whether one streams at slightly higher bitrate than another.


Thanks.

So are you saying you can work out the bitrate by how much data is transmitted? I wouldn't have thought the video stream would be consistence size per second?

Or maybe by inspecting the network packets and getting it from the actual data?


----------



## dgkula

Kris Deering said:


> The Lumagen is designed to process and output in 422, so I would not recommend changing the output (neither would Lumagen) to 444.


I'm new to considering chroma so this may be a dumb question: My Panasonic UB900 defaults to upsampling chroma to 444 12-bit but when I look at the "playback status" screen for both UHD and HD blu ray titles, they seem to be encoded on the media in 420 10-bit. I read that HDMI requires 422 as part of the spec (but I dont understand what that means).

For best performance and minimizing redundant processing, if the content is encoded at 420, HDMI requires 422, and the Lumagen is designed to handle 422 on input and output is there any benefit to having the Panny upsample to 444? Naively I think "no" but wanted to check with the pros.

I can set the UB900 Color Mode to "YCbRr 4:2:2" which results in "422 12-bit" being sent to the Lumagen. This seems to align with the Lumagen design partially.

I also have an option under "Deep Color Output" to change the default "Auto (12bit priority)" to "10bit priority" or off. Is there any benefit to selecting "12bit" or "10bit" to the Lumagen? 

The manual Introduction states "The Radiance family offers 10-bit front-end, and 12-bit back-end" so should I cap the output of the Panny to "10bit" to match the front end design and eliminate additional processing? I think the net impact would be for the Panny to send 422 10-bit for UHD and HD blu ray.

edit: i have 18GHz inputs/outputs - I think that has an impact on bit rates ...

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So are you saying you can work out the bitrate by how much data is transmitted? I wouldn't have thought the video stream would be consistence size per second?
> 
> Or maybe by inspecting the network packets and getting it from the actual data?


Don't over complicate it. Bitrates are average over time, the network traffic itself will often be "gulpy". So measure how much data is transferred over some time period (say 2 minutes) and divide that total amount of data by the number of seconds (in this case, 120). 

Some routers may do this sum for you, though the averaging window might not be long enough to give very useful results.


----------



## DannyBoy73

bobof said:


> Don't over complicate it. Bitrates are average over time, the network traffic itself will often be "gulpy". So measure how much data is transferred over some time period (say 2 minutes) and divide that total amount of data by the number of seconds (in this case, 120).
> 
> Some routers may do this sum for you, though the averaging window might not be long enough to give very useful results.


Personally, I don't think bytes/data sent could be used to calculate if a video stream is 8, 10 or 12bit. There's no standard about of data transmitted for a 2 minute clip of video to compare it too.

You could look at the packets with DPI (deep packet inspection), however, most streams from the internet are encrypted these days so that wouldn't help.


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Personally, I don't think bytes/data sent could be used to calculate if a video stream is 8, 10 or 12bit. There's no standard about of data transmitted for a 2 minute clip of video to compare it too.
> 
> You could look at the packets with DPI (deep packet inspection), however, most streams from the internet are encrypted these days so that wouldn't help.


We are talking about different things; you're mis-using the term Bit Rate.

Bit Rate (how much data is sent in a second) (which is what I was talking about, and what the OP asked about) is different to Bit Depth (what are the number of digital quantization steps in the signal) (which is what you are talking about).


----------



## DannyBoy73

bobof said:


> We are talking about different things; you're mis-using the term Bit Rate.
> 
> Bit Rate (how much data is sent in a second) (which is what I was talking about, and what the OP asked about) is different to Bit Depth (what are the number of digital quantization steps in the signal) (which is what you are talking about).


Ah yes you're right, doh!!I think I merged @docrog and @dgkula questions together! All makes sense now


----------



## bearcat2002

Do we want dpad to be 1 now after all the changes back in December or is it still 3/4 preferred by most to be best default?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BobDyl

bobof said:


> On the AppleTV4k you can enable the developer heads up display (a yellow text overlay over the media playback) which will show you the bitrate for playing content. You'll need a Mac and the Xcode developer environment (free download) to be able to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> On the Roku I don't think there is any way to enable this info, but maybe there is (I'm not very familiar with Roku units).



You can get bitrate info on the Roku for the Netflix app IIRC. Try pressing “*” in the show description screen or when video is buffering to toggle on and off.


----------



## dgkula

dgkula said:


> I also have an option under "Deep Color Output" to change the default "Auto (12bit priority)" to "10bit priority" or off. Is there any benefit to selecting "12bit" or "10bit" to the Lumagen?
> 
> The manual Introduction states "The Radiance family offers 10-bit front-end, and 12-bit back-end" so should I cap the output of the Panny to "10bit" to match the front end design and eliminate additional processing? I think the net impact would be for the Panny to send 422 10-bit for UHD and HD blu ray.
> 
> edit: i have 18GHz inputs/outputs - I think that has an impact on bit rates ...
> 
> Thanks!


I **think** based on the article at Acoustic Frontiers http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/ that in the HDMI 2.0 spec 4:2:2 10 bit is not supported based on the table in the article. Looks like 4:2:2 12-bit works for 4k 24/25/30 at 8.9 Gbps and 4:2:2 12-bit works for 4k 50/60 at 17.8Gbps. I believe that all of my UHD and HD BRs are 4k24 so seems like the Panasonic UB900 sending 422 12-bit is the way to go ...

Someone please let me know if I'm getting this completely wrong.


----------



## Craig Peer

bearcat2002 said:


> Do we want dpad to be 1 now after all the changes back in December or is it still 3/4 preferred by most to be best default?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


1 seems to be the preferred setting. I can vouch that 1 looks awesome on my RS4500 ! 

This latest firmware update forced me to use " boot mode " to update. Was a bit worried but it worked and all is fine.


----------



## Kris Deering

dgkula said:


> I'm new to considering chroma so this may be a dumb question: My Panasonic UB900 defaults to upsampling chroma to 444 12-bit but when I look at the "playback status" screen for both UHD and HD blu ray titles, they seem to be encoded on the media in 420 10-bit. I read that HDMI requires 422 as part of the spec (but I dont understand what that means).
> 
> For best performance and minimizing redundant processing, if the content is encoded at 420, HDMI requires 422, and the Lumagen is designed to handle 422 on input and output is there any benefit to having the Panny upsample to 444? Naively I think "no" but wanted to check with the pros.
> 
> I can set the UB900 Color Mode to "YCbRr 4:2:2" which results in "422 12-bit" being sent to the Lumagen. This seems to align with the Lumagen design partially.
> 
> I also have an option under "Deep Color Output" to change the default "Auto (12bit priority)" to "10bit priority" or off. Is there any benefit to selecting "12bit" or "10bit" to the Lumagen?
> 
> The manual Introduction states "The Radiance family offers 10-bit front-end, and 12-bit back-end" so should I cap the output of the Panny to "10bit" to match the front end design and eliminate additional processing? I think the net impact would be for the Panny to send 422 10-bit for UHD and HD blu ray.
> 
> edit: i have 18GHz inputs/outputs - I think that has an impact on bit rates ...
> 
> Thanks!


No matter what you end up with at the projector, the content is ALWAYS going to be 4:2:0 10 bit if we are talking about UHD HDR. But consumer specs don't support this. This was also the case with DVD/Blu-ray with 4:2:0 8-bit. So the player has to convert it to something the devices will accept. This is typically either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. This means that the CHROMA resolution has been scaled. 4:2:2 is ALWAYS 12 bit. Anything that says anything else is wrong, 4:2:2 will ALWAYS be 12 bit. 4:4:4 can be either 10 or 12 bit and tends to cause more problems with setups because of bandwidth. Remember, EVERY display eventually converts this all to RGB because the displays we use are RGB. So the conversions happen in multiple instances and sometimes some devices do it better than others. Some use chroma resolution patterns for this, but that can be a bit of a misnomer because chroma resolution in real content is not anywhere near that level of resolution. I think most would be blown away if they could take an animated movie and strip out the grayscale and only see the color left, it isn't anywhere near as much as you think. So 4:2:2 is what I always suggest because it is preserves bit depth for processing and has the least amount of issues in transmission. If you want chroma patterns that don't translate much to real world performance to look better, use 4:4:4 but be prepared for other potential issues.


----------



## dgkula

Kris Deering said:


> So 4:2:2 is what I always suggest because it is preserves bit depth for processing and has the least amount of issues in transmission. If you want chroma patterns that don't translate much to real world performance to look better, use 4:4:4 but be prepared for other potential issues.


Thank you Kris! I was having an occasional random audio or video dropout only from the Panasonic UB900 with UHD BR which is why I was going down this path. I set it to upconvert to 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4 (default) so perhaps that will address my occasional issue. Appreciate the feedback!


----------



## tibia

Craig Peer said:


> 1 seems to be the preferred setting. I can vouch that 1 looks awesome on my RS4500 !
> 
> This latest firmware update forced me to use " boot mode " to update. Was a bit worried but it worked and all is fine.


I also had to use "boot mode" on the versions posted on 011320 and 011620. Furthermore I had to use the default baud rate (115K) rather than the faster 230K. I've had to use "Force" only on a very few updates, but this is the first time I had to reduce baud rate as well.


----------



## Craig Peer

tibia said:


> I also had to use "boot mode" on the versions posted on 011320 and 011620. Furthermore I had to use the default baud rate (115K) rather than the faster 230K. I've had to use "Force" only on a very few updates, but this is the first time I had to reduce baud rate as well.


First time needing boot mode for me - ever. But I usually use the slower 115K speed as it always works. But not this time. Still, all is good. Boot mode sure takes a long time in comparison though.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> First time needing boot mode for me - ever. But I usually use the slower 115K speed as it always works. But not this time. Still, all is good. Boot mode sure takes a long time in comparison though.



I have not downloaded the most recent update. Other than being slower, is the procedure the same as doing it the normal method?


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I have not downloaded the most recent update. Other than being slower, is the procedure the same as doing it the normal method?


It is unless you have to use " boot mode ". Then a screen popped up that said to disconnect power to the Radiance Pro, then plug it back in and start the firmware download within 10 seconds.  That worked.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> It is unless you have to use " boot mode ". Then a screen popped up that said to disconnect power to the Radiance Pro, then plug it back in and start the firmware download within 10 seconds.  That worked.


I’ve had to do that on almost every update!!


----------



## Kelvin1965S

I thought boot mode was the recommended method? It's how i do mine anyway, though it's a of a pain reaching the power socket on my set up, then getting back out in time to hit the update button. 

That's partly why I never rush to put any new versions on until I've read a bit of feedback. Must get round to putting the latest one on now since it seems to be fine.


----------



## docrog

scrowe said:


> My understanding is that a well trod method is to calibrate the display device as much as possible using its native tools. The Lumagen is then used to correct anything further that cannot be done natively. Then you are free to make further changes on a per input/memory basis if the input devices have flaws. To what level this 3rd per input calibration is taken is dependent on the calibrator. I think the basic calibration is primarily aimed at the display/Lumagen combination.


Thanks! Does that mean that the Lumagen would have to be re-calibrated as the PJ bulb ages or is swapped out if there are no interval changes to the input devices?


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> Thanks! Does that mean that the Lumagen would have to be re-calibrated as the PJ bulb ages or is swapped out if there are no interval changes to the input devices?


Yes, but you could also just run auto calibration on your projector.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Yes, but you could also just run auto calibration on your projector.


I've sold my Spyder and now rely on professional calibration at regular (typically, yearly) intervals. My question is whether or not the Lumagen would need to be re-calibrated following any subsequent PJ calibration. I'm not sure that you've answered that.


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> I've sold my Spyder and now rely on professional calibration at regular (typically, yearly) intervals. My question is whether or not the Lumagen would need to be re-calibrated following any subsequent PJ calibration. I'm not sure that you've answered that.


Auto Calibration is a feature built into your JVC projector. No need to recalibrate.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Auto Calibration is a feature built into your JVC projector. No need to recalibrate.


Sorry to seem dense, but what does the JVC's auto calibration feature have to do with the need for re-calibration of the Lumagen?


----------



## mikela

audioguy said:


> I’ve had to do that on almost every update!!


Same here


----------



## kaotikr1

docrog said:


> I've sold my Spyder and now rely on professional calibration at regular (typically, yearly) intervals. My question is whether or not the Lumagen would need to be re-calibrated following any subsequent PJ calibration. I'm not sure that you've answered that.


I would recommend your calibration take place in the Lumagen. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## hellride

docrog said:


> Sorry to seem dense, but what does the JVC's auto calibration feature have to do with the need for re-calibration of the Lumagen?


Maybe time to study some manuals!


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I've sold my Spyder and now rely on professional calibration at regular (typically, yearly) intervals. My question is whether or not the Lumagen would need to be re-calibrated following any subsequent PJ calibration. I'm not sure that you've answered that.


Yes. If you do a calibration on a system with a Lumagen/projector, you are doing the calibration as a SYSTEM, not one device only. You wouldn't want to do anything with one and not the other, they work as a SYSTEM. So if you were to redo the calibration settings in the JVC, this would necessitate the need to redo calibration work in the Lumagen (1D and/or 3D LUTs, tone mapping).


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I’ve had to do that on almost every update!!


Interesting. This is certainly the first time I've had to. Maybe it will become the " new normal " way of doing it. We will see. The picture sure looks good now though.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Yes. If you do a calibration on a system with a Lumagen/projector, you are doing the calibration as a SYSTEM, not one device only. You wouldn't want to do anything with one and not the other, they work as a SYSTEM. So if you were to redo the calibration settings in the JVC, this would necessitate the need to redo calibration work in the Lumagen (1D and/or 3D LUTs, tone mapping).


Thanks, Kris. That definitively answers my question. If a new video source is subsequently added to the configuration, would that always prompt the need for Lumagen re-calibration?


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks, Kris. That definitively answers my question. If a new video source is subsequently added to the configuration, would that always prompt the need for Lumagen re-calibration?


No, calibrations shouldn't be needed on a per input basis unless there is something wrong with the output of the source device.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> No, calibrations shouldn't be needed on a per input basis unless there is something wrong with the output of the source device.


Good to know! I was just wondering because you had mentioned calibrating "as a system" and wasn't sure if that term included source devices.


----------



## jaychatbonneau

So I just got my Radiance Pro 4240. How do I turn on Dynamic tone mapping for HDR?


----------



## Craig Peer

jaychatbonneau said:


> So I just got my Radiance Pro 4240. How do I turn on Dynamic tone mapping for HDR?


From my notes - " You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->Dynamic Level menu. "


----------



## jaychatbonneau

Kris Deering said:


> No, calibrations shouldn't be needed on a per input basis unless there is something wrong with the output of the source device.





Craig Peer said:


> From my notes - " You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->Dynamic Level menu. "


Thank you!


----------



## Mike Garrett

Craig Peer said:


> First time needing boot mode for me - ever. But I usually use the slower 115K speed as it always works. But not this time. Still, all is good. Boot mode sure takes a long time in comparison though.


I have a very old Acer laptop, so I always use 115k speed. I had zero issues updating to the new firmware.


----------



## jrp

jaychatbonneau said:


> So I just got my Radiance Pro 4240. How do I turn on Dynamic tone mapping for HDR?


With recent software as soon as you enable HDR Mapping in the CMS1 menu, you also get Dynamic Tone Mapping with Adaptive intra-scene mapping enabled as well. I am calling this ADTM.

To enable HDR Mapping go to MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1-> Colorspace and change it to SDR2020 (or for a projector/TV with a limit of a Rec 709 Gamut, SDR709, with Auto Convert). Press OK to accept. Then go to MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1-> HDR Mapping and turn the "Enable" to On. Then adjust the Max Light as appropriate. Leaving it at the default 500 is not a bad place to start. Then press OK to accept. Then do a Save to make the changes permanent.

Note: Once you have enabled HDR mapping, with recent software you can adjust the CMS1 Max Light in the "Left Arrow" HDR parameter menu. This parameter changes the value in the CMS1 menu and so affect all HDR sources. However, the other parameters in the Left-arrow menu affect only the current input and input memory. Also note while in the Left-arrow menu press OK to accept changes and EXIT to discard the changes. Save any changes.

As an example for Max Light I have 88 nits off the screen, and I have my Max Light = 400. So just a bit less than 5x the nits measurement off the screen.


----------



## LGJr

*Sdr2020*

When I change cms1 to sdr2020, hdr flag on or off, auto convert on or off, the picture gets very dim. When set to hdr2020, hdr always on, auto convert on or off, I get a brighter picture. Even then the picture doesn't have the pop I thought I would get from 4k hdr. Television LG 65E7, Lumagen 4242 and OPPO 203. The Lumagen doesn't have a calibration done, just 2pt white balance on television. All processing is off on tv, & color gamut extended(not wide). Setting on Lumagen dtm/on, dpad 1,ratio 31 the rest are defaults.


----------



## Kris Deering

LGJr said:


> When I change cms1 to sdr2020, hdr flag on or off, auto convert on or off, the picture gets very dim. When set to hdr2020, hdr always on, auto convert on or off, I get a brighter picture. Even then the picture doesn't have the pop I thought I would get from 4k hdr. Television LG 65E7, Lumagen 4242 and OPPO 203. The Lumagen doesn't have a calibration done, just 2pt white balance on television. All processing is off on tv, & color gamut extended(not wide). Setting on Lumagen dtm/on, dpad 1,ratio 31 the rest are defaults.


The DTM is setup for a projector out of the box, not a flat panel. You would not want to run it in SDR2020 for an OLED. So far I have not seen a reason to use a Lumagen for DTM with a flat panel like the 7 series OLED, but I also haven’t done any testing directly to see what merits it would have vice the onboard tone mapping.


----------



## docrog

With regards to Rec709 and calibration with 1D & 3D LUT, will the Lumagen & NX7 demonstrate better color accuracy in comparison with the NX7 (without Lumagen in the video chain) calibrated by more conventional software (for example, Calman)? Also, with regards to 1D & 3D LUT calibration, are *BOTH* the Lumagen & NX7 calibrated separately? Thanks!


----------



## sceptre-lcd

*HLG support*

My understanding is that Fox is supposed to broadcast the superbowl this year in 4K using HLG. they are using a 1080p HLG production feed and then upscaling it to 4K before it goes to for distribution. 

I assume Radiance Pro will support taking in an HLG feed ? and then translating/mapping it appropriately for a Sony or JVC 4K projector ? Fox is supposed to offer this 4K feed through their streaming app besides directv etc.


----------



## jrp

sceptre-lcd said:


> My understanding is that Fox is supposed to broadcast the superbowl this year in 4K using HLG. they are using a 1080p HLG production feed and then upscaling it to 4K before it goes to for distribution.
> 
> I assume Radiance Pro will support taking in an HLG feed ? and then translating/mapping it appropriately for a Sony or JVC 4K projector ? Fox is supposed to offer this 4K feed through their streaming app besides directv etc.


The Radiance Pro will process HLG and it does not matter which source device is being used.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Kris Deering said:


> The DTM is setup for a projector out of the box, not a flat panel. You would not want to run it in SDR2020 for an OLED. So far I have not seen a reason to use a Lumagen for DTM with a flat panel like the 7 series OLED, but I also haven’t done any testing directly to see what merits it would have vice the onboard tone mapping.


Is it not reasonable to assume the Lumagen DTM would be better than LG's onboard tone mapping? Also, if what you say is true, wouldn't that also apply to JVC projectors with the now onboard tone mapping?


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> With regards to Rec709 and calibration with 1D & 3D LUT, will the Lumagen & NX7 demonstrate better color accuracy in comparison with the NX7 (without Lumagen in the video chain) calibrated by more conventional software (for example, Calman)? Also, with regards to 1D & 3D LUT calibration, are *BOTH* the Lumagen & NX7 calibrated separately? Thanks!


Lumagen 1D+3DLUT should give better accuracy (it does in my case on the previous gen X7900). I personally don't use any controls in the projector other than the gains to control the white point colour temp and the iris to set peak level, and use profile off as that has the most linear response and provides the best foundation for a 3DLUT - though it needs a hack to get the filter in place for wide colour gamut with profile off(in fact, even for 100% REC709 on my unit). Probably not relevant to NX7 for 709 (though I've seen at least one set of results showing it not quite reaching REC709 without filter). There are other approaches (using autocal as a base to 3DLUT on top, or using ARVE's tools to upload custom gamma curves to correct the gamma droop instead of relying on the 1D / 3D LUT).

If you've already selected a calibrator though you should ask them once you've told them your requirements; you're buying their experience, and you don't really want to be telling them how to calibrate your system (at that point, you might as well be doing it yourself!). Any calibrator doing Lumagen units regularly will certainly have done many JVC projectors with them and should know all the nooks and crannies (though may not want to share their tricks of the trade here publicly).


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> If you've already selected a calibrator though you should ask them once you've told them your requirements; you're buying their experience, and you don't really want to be telling them how to calibrate your system (at that point, you might as well be doing it yourself!).


I have had multiple calibrations performed on my projectors over the past 25+ years, as well as previously using the Spyder to calibrate my RS500 with JVC provided software. Now I'm trying to understand the relationship of the calibration process of the Lumagen relative to calibration of the NX7, since that information doesn't seem to be present in the Pro's user manual. It has never been my intent to "tell" the calibrator how to perform his mission, as he's obviously being paid for his expertise. Although many Lumagen related posts have focused on the impact of 1D & (suggested 17 x 17 x 17) 3D LUT calibration for the BT2020 color space over less complex calibration software, far fewer have focused on how/if Lumagen improves the color accuracy for Rec 601/709 color space for SD & HD material. That's the information that I was attempting to acquire in order to make me a more informed owner.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I have had multiple calibrations performed on my projectors over the past 25+ years, as well as previously using the Spyder to calibrate my RS500 with JVC provided software. Now I'm trying to understand the relationship of the calibration process of the Lumagen relative to calibration of the NX7, since that information doesn't seem to be present in the Pro's user manual. It has never been my intent to "tell" the calibrator how to perform his mission, as he's obviously being paid for his expertise. Although many Lumagen related posts have focused on the impact of 1D & (suggested 17 x 17 x 17) 3D LUT calibration for the BT2020 color space over less complex calibration software, far fewer have focused on how/if Lumagen improves the color accuracy for Rec 601/709 color space for SD & HD material. That's the information that I was attempting to acquire in order to make me a more informed owner.


1D+3DLUT will almost always yield improvements over display only calibration - if not there wouldn't be much point in the feature . Now you can get into all kinds of arguments about how much better the LUT corrected display will be, and whether that yields visible improvement, but it will certainly be measurably better. Often those arguments against LUT calibration are poorly substantiated by folk looking at a flat 2D CIE chart and saying they've got some small number of points on target so LUT isn't necessary; in order to answer the question fully you really need a 3D profile of a display with just the corrections applied in display to see where it is deficient.

The only displays where you don't really* stand to gain from an external LUT holder like the Lumagen are those displays that have built in LUT holders that can be loaded with a LUT that comes from volumetric data - so things like the latest LG OLED displays. 

*there could always be problems with an internal implementation which means it doesn't work as well as an external one.


----------



## Kris Deering

DannyBoy73 said:


> Is it not reasonable to assume the Lumagen DTM would be better than LG's onboard tone mapping? Also, if what you say is true, wouldn't that also apply to JVC projectors with the now onboard tone mapping?


Tone mapping for an OLED vs a projector are really two entirely different animals. An OLED has enough overall brightness that the benefits of Lumagen's DTM aren't nearly as drastic as they are with a projector. It is complete apples and oranges. 

It would not apply to JVC's tone mapping either, you use one or the other, and I would suggest the Lumagen for the tone map as it outperforms the JVC's (though the JVC does an great job for an onboard projector tone map).


----------



## fatherom

Question about 24.000Hz input sources when the Lumagen is outputting 23.976Hz (rate match off - I have menu 0872 engaged).

I'm assuming (and expecting) that the occasional dropped frame is to be expected? In these cases, does it make sense, temporarily, to do a menu 0870 and have the lumagen output true 24.000 instead of 23.976? (I'm presuming my Sony projector will be fine with that)

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## bobof

fatherom said:


> Question about 24.000Hz input sources when the Lumagen is outputting 23.976Hz (rate match off - I have menu 0872 engaged).
> 
> I'm assuming (and expecting) that the occasional dropped frame is to be expected? In these cases, does it make sense, temporarily, to do a menu 0870 and have the lumagen output true 24.000 instead of 23.976? (I'm presuming my Sony projector will be fine with that)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


Yes, you'll get a dropped frame once every 41s for 24 vs 23.976
Hrm... if you do it temporarily, then that's kind of the equivalent of leaving rate match on...  Unless what you're really trying to guard against is the 59.94 vs 60 instances, or only want to apply it if you notice the dropped frames.

In any case, the rate match setting lives within an output Style. So it is quite possible to have either an output setup that for all 24p content uses a style with rate match enabled, and for 60p content doesn't. If you wanted manual control instead of that kind of automation you could also set one of the memory options to manually switch to a style that you had rate match enabled on.


----------



## docrog

I noticed that Lumagen posted yet another firmware update yesterday. Does this update suffer from what's been reported with the prior update: requiring boot mode and a slower baud rate to download?


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> I noticed that Lumagen posted yet another firmware update yesterday. Does this update suffer from what's been reported with the prior update: requiring boot mode and a slower baud rate to download?


Now that I've done the boot mode, it wasn't a big deal. That said, this update doesn't do anything I need, so I'm not going to bother with it.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> I noticed that Lumagen posted yet another firmware update yesterday. Does this update suffer from what's been reported with the prior update: requiring boot mode and a slower baud rate to download?


The previous update doesn't always need slower rate or bootmode. I have updated several clients units with it and have never had to do slower rate or use boot mode. In fact i've never ever updated a unit using a slower baud rate that i can remember...and i update a lot more units than the average user....


----------



## ht guy

New (purchased used) Lumagen owner here.

Just checking in to say that 1) DTM is amazing and 2) 2nd favorite feature is the automatic aspect correction.

Talk about saving time vs the prior solution of going into the projector setup menu to select aspect (and even then, it didn't cover other than 235 & 16x9.)

What a great box!


----------



## SJHT

Gordon Fraser said:


> The previous update doesn't always need slower rate or bootmode. I have updated several clients units with it and have never had to do slower rate or use boot mode. In fact i've never ever updated a unit using a slower baud rate that i can remember...and i update a lot more units than the average user....


I can’t remember the last time I had to use boot mode. Also always use the fastest speed. The only thing I attribute it to is that DISH is my main default input and is running at 1080i when I’m updating. Who knows.... SJ


----------



## MJV29

Hey guys, I just tried to hook a new Roku up to the Lumagen and I can seem to get a picture on my screen. Would anyone know what I can do to get a picture or what to try? In the info box it says that input 4 has no signal. Everything is N/A. I have tried my xbox and it work prior to, just not sure what setting the Roku has to be on. I have never had this issue before. 

Thanks, Matt


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> I can’t remember the last time I had to use boot mode. Also always use the fastest speed. The only thing I attribute it to is that DISH is my main default input and is running at 1080i when I’m updating. Who knows.... SJ


I don't ever seem to have a problem either. I tend to just turn on the Lumagen and leave the rest of the system off though (based on the good info from Jim about input / output state changes potentially causing issues)


----------



## dinamigym

MJV29 said:


> Hey guys, I just tried to hook a new Roku up to the Lumagen and I can seem to get a picture on my screen. Would anyone know what I can do to get a picture or what to try? In the info box it says that input 4 has no signal. Everything is N/A. I have tried my xbox and it work prior to, just not sure what setting the Roku has to be on. I have never had this issue before.
> 
> Thanks, Matt


I run my Roku direct into Lumagen. No problems ever. Actually, my ATV4k is much more temperamental. I have Lumagen set to output all 60hz material @ 2160 60hz and all 24hz material @ 2160 24hz, rate match off. HDR2020 = SDR2020, tone-mapping on.

Hope this helps...


----------



## AKJohnny

MJV29 said:


> Hey guys, I just tried to hook a new Roku up to the Lumagen and I can seem to get a picture on my screen. Would anyone know what I can do to get a picture or what to try? In the info box it says that input 4 has no signal. Everything is N/A. I have tried my xbox and it work prior to, just not sure what setting the Roku has to be on. I have never had this issue before.
> 
> Thanks, Matt




By chance is it a 1080p tv you’re hooking up to? I had that issue with my 4K Roku connected to 1080p tv. Had to make some change to the lumagen input settings to accept. Just can’t remember which off the top of my head. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Htnut2000

I was having a lot of problems with updates especially with the longer ones.
I needed to run at the slowest speed and boot mode.

By chance I discovered there is a USB setting under advanced power management in Windows 10 that was enabled. I disabled it and have now the updates are rock solid and at the highest speed.

I have attached a screenshot of the highly hidden option.


----------



## Craig Peer

I found and made those changes on my computer. I’ll see what happens next update.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

Any word on a refreshed Lumagen that supports HDMI 2.1 ?


----------



## docrog

Craig Rounds just completed his extremely meticulous calibration of my 4240 and NX7. Although I haven't yet had the opportunity to make an extensive evaluation, I'm already impressed by how natural colors (especially skin tones) are rendered. ADTM has been flawless on those streaming and UHD discs passages that I've so far seen. The most recent firmware update was problem free and at maximum baud rate (not requiring boot mode).

I had been concerned whether or not my video chain would be an issue: video sources -> AVR -> 4240 -> NX7. Craig found NO evidence of video processing issues caused by the AVR (Yamaha RX-A3080) and switching appeared to be rock solid with as rapid a handshake as would have been expected with the Lumagen acting as the video switcher. I'm thrilled that my excellent outcome means that I'll be able to make use of the AVR's GUI, as I'd hoped for.

The only "glitch" was that it seems that Darbee levels were not able to be saved in individual memories (addressed by the remote's M1-4 buttons) for the same individual physical input. Although this is only of minimal concern, it would be excellent if anyone is aware of how to proceed.


----------



## uderman

blake said:


> Any word on a refreshed Lumagen that supports HDMI 2.1 ?


Why would you need such a thing? The current Radiance Pro is not complete yet, I would guess not soon.


----------



## blake

uderman said:


> Why would you need such a thing? The current Radiance Pro is not complete yet, I would guess not soon.




I have not purchased a Lumagen Radiance Pro yet , but I am close to pulling the trigger on JVC RS4500 (for new theater build) which will not be receiving the dynamic tone mapping upgrade so Lumagen would have to do it. I am not in hurry for a Lumagen, and since HDmI 2.1 devices are around the corner, figure it makes sense to wait for the Lumagen version to support this to avoid having to pay for upgrade later.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> I have not purchased a Lumagen Radiance Pro yet , but I am close to pulling the trigger on JVC RS4500 (for new theater build) which will not be receiving the dynamic tone mapping upgrade so Lumagen would have to do it. I am not in hurry for a Lumagen, and since HDmI 2.1 devices are around the corner, figure it makes sense to wait for the Lumagen version to support this to avoid having to pay for upgrade later.


Seems like an odd position, given that even if an HDMI 2.1 Radiance does appear you won't get any useful HDMI 2.1 features that will knock on into a benefit with an RS4500 - or at least I can't think of any. VRR and QMS would all need display support, and the link to the RS4500 will be constrained to 18G, so there isn't any benefit there. If it's just about having the latest thing, I'd consider holding fire on the RS4500 too, as that represents a far greater investment in non-bleeding-edge tech.


----------



## blake

bobof said:


> Seems like an odd position, given that even if an HDMI 2.1 Radiance does appear you won't get any useful HDMI 2.1 features that will knock on into a benefit with an RS4500 - or at least I can't think of any. VRR and QMS would all need display support, and the link to the RS4500 will be constrained to 18G, so there isn't any benefit there. If it's just about having the latest thing, I'd consider holding fire on the RS4500 too, as that represents a far greater investment in non-bleeding-edge tech.




All valid points. I figured I would own the Lumagen for a longer period of time, during which time I would upgrade one or two projector generations over the years. Perhaps this wouldn’t be the case. 

There just isn’t another projector that can provide the light output of the RS4500 (in high laser: 2500 calibrated lumens) in 4k with similar picture quality. At least not for $20k usd. Rumor has it JVC isn’t replacing this unit with a new flagship at Cedia 2020 (Sept) .. so I would be waiting 1.5 years for something better at Cedia 2021.


----------



## loggeo

bobof said:


> Seems like an odd position, given that even if an HDMI 2.1 Radiance does appear you won't get any useful HDMI 2.1 features that will knock on into a benefit with an RS4500 - or at least I can't think of any. VRR and QMS would all need display support, and the link to the RS4500 will be constrained to 18G, so there isn't any benefit there. If it's just about having the latest thing, I'd consider holding fire on the RS4500 too, as that represents a far greater investment in non-bleeding-edge tech.



Well, soon there will be some cool features, but all of them have to do with gaming (mostly PC). So I don't know if it would be wise to add a radiance device in the chain. 

New graphic cards that support uhd [email protected] are just around the corner and PS5/ Xbox will probably be available before the end of the year.
In any case GSync would be a cool feature to have on our Lumagen, should we decide to play a game every now and then.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> All valid points. I figured I would own the Lumagen for a longer period of time, during which time I would upgrade one or two projector generations over the years. Perhaps this wouldn’t be the case.
> 
> There just isn’t another projector that can provide the light output of the RS4500 (in high laser: 2500 calibrated lumens) in 4k with similar picture quality. At least not for $20k usd. Rumor has it JVC isn’t replacing this unit with a new flagship at Cedia 2020 (Sept) .. so I would be waiting 1.5 years for something better at Cedia 2021.


Fair enough. If I had the beans for an RS4500 I'd want to be getting the best of it from the get go, and for my money that is with a Lumagen hooked up (or other solution for tone mapping). The auto aspect is also extremely compelling if you have a mask screen (or even if you have a fixed 2.4 screen) as are the calibration controls.

I think there are issues over HDMI 2.1 chip availability - we're not seeing it in AVRs yet either. TV vendors work to different rules as they have the scale to be able to do things that are not options to smaller players.


----------



## tnaik4

loggeo said:


> bobof said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like an odd position, given that even if an HDMI 2.1 Radiance does appear you won't get any useful HDMI 2.1 features that will knock on into a benefit with an RS4500 - or at least I can't think of any. VRR and QMS would all need display support, and the link to the RS4500 will be constrained to 18G, so there isn't any benefit there. If it's just about having the latest thing, I'd consider holding fire on the RS4500 too, as that represents a far greater investment in non-bleeding-edge tech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, soon there will be some cool features, but all of them have to do with gaming (mostly PC). So I don't know if it would be wise to add a radiance device in the chain.
> 
> New graphic cards that support uhd [email protected] are just around the corner and PS5/ Xbox will probably be available before the end of the year.
> In any case GSync would be a cool feature to have on our Lumagen, should we decide to play a game every now and then./forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

When i bought my radiance pro 4242 i made sure to ask if the hdmi is upgradable for when hdmi 2.1 is released , and the response was that it is upgradable, i guess it will be the same way it is now when u can switch a 9ghz port to 18ghz .
Mayne Jim can clarify it but thats what ive been told.


----------



## bobof

tnaik4 said:


> When i bought my radiance pro 4242 i made sure to ask if the hdmi is upgradable for when hdmi 2.1 is released , and the response was that it is upgradable, i guess it will be the same way it is now when u can switch a 9ghz port to 18ghz .
> Mayne Jim can clarify it but thats what ive been told.


My understanding is that yes it is upgradeable, but there are limits and complications... As you say perhaps Jim can clarify exactly what the status is.

From my understanding and having had a poke around inside my unit during IO card swaps I believe the 42xx series only has an 18G total backplane - hence why it could never do PIP as if you had 2 18G sources then you can't actually get the data into the FPGA to do the PIP processing. So >maybe< you could get a partial update with some 2.1 functions, but I don't think you'll be able to get the higher bitrates above 18G. The 44xx units are a bit different I believe (not seen inside one) in that I >think< they have twice the internal bandwidth (and hence >could< do PIP of two 18G sources). The individual input / output card slots shared with the 42xx series only have 18G of bandwidth though, so I believe you'd need a funky card that spanned two slots to have any chance of getting more than 18G into / out of the FPGA for processing from a single video source. Even then, I don't >think< you'd get up to full spec for HDMI 2.1.


----------



## Craig Peer

loggeo said:


> Well, soon there will be some cool features, but all of them have to do with gaming (mostly PC). So I don't know if it would be wise to add a radiance device in the chain.
> 
> New graphic cards that support uhd [email protected] are just around the corner and PS5/ Xbox will probably be available before the end of the year.
> In any case GSync would be a cool feature to have on our Lumagen, should we decide to play a game every now and then.


As a non gamer ( except maybe on my computer ) that only uses his home theater for watching movies, the new HDMI standard is really of no interest. I have no sources that need this. And considering I got all my HDMI issues fixed 100%, I'm in no hurry to open a new Pandora's Box of new HDMI problems. I'm enjoying 4K movies too much to even worry about HDMI 2.1.


----------



## bobof

Craig Peer said:


> As a non gamer ( except maybe on my computer ) that only uses his home theater for watching movies, the new HDMI standard is really of no interest. I have no sources that need this. And considering I got all my HDMI issues fixed 100%, I'm in no hurry to open a new Pandora's Box of new HDMI problems. I'm enjoying 4K movies too much to even worry about HDMI 2.1.


Yup. Higher resolution seems pointless at my (nay any!) seating distance, 444 vs 422 at 60p is the biggest "meh" ever; and also don't game. The quick switching functionality is the only bit that interests me; and I can't see it coming to JVC any time soon because they're still soooo far behind in terms of switching speed achievable with HDMI currently (vs the best TVs). I'll be pretty surprised if we see any 2.1 functionality on the next iteration of the N series to be honest, which sees us out to 2021 at least before there is any relevance...


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> Yup. Higher resolution seems pointless at my (nay any!) seating distance, 444 vs 422 at 60p is the biggest "meh" ever; and also don't game. The quick switching functionality is the only bit that interests me; and I can't see it coming to JVC any time soon because they're still soooo far behind in terms of switching speed achievable with HDMI currently (vs the best TVs). I'll be pretty surprised if we see any 2.1 functionality on the next iteration of the N series to be honest, which sees us out to 2021 at least before there is any relevance...


Things move so slow in the home theater world, I wouldn't be surprised if HDMI 2.1 didn't show up in home theater projectors until 2024 or 2025. About the time Epson brings out native 4K projectors.


----------



## Mike Garrett

dinamigym said:


> I run my Roku direct into Lumagen. No problems ever. Actually, my ATV4k is much more temperamental. I have Lumagen set to output all 60hz material @ 2160 60hz and all 24hz material @ 2160 24hz, rate match off. HDR2020 = SDR2020, tone-mapping on.
> 
> Hope this helps...


Same here, Roku Ultra connected direct to Lumagen, no issues.


----------



## blake

loggeo said:


> Well, soon there will be some cool features, but all of them have to do with gaming (mostly PC). So I don't know if it would be wise to add a radiance device in the chain.
> 
> New graphic cards that support uhd [email protected] are just around the corner and PS5/ Xbox will probably be available before the end of the year.
> In any case GSync would be a cool feature to have on our Lumagen, should we decide to play a game every now and then.




Agreed ! I plan to add my PC to the home theater projector chain, so variable refresh rate / Nvidis G-Sync support on HdMI 2.1 would be awesome ! Not sure if the projector (rs4500) would accept that, though ?

I too would like Jim to comment about potential hdmi 2.1 upgradability of current units ! What was the cost of this in the past (ex 1.4 to 2.0)? Can you do yourself ?


----------



## dlinsley

blake said:


> Agreed ! I plan to add my PC to the home theater projector chain, so variable refresh rate / Nvidis G-Sync support on HdMI 2.1 would be awesome ! Not sure if the projector (rs4500) would accept that, though ?
> 
> I too would like Jim to comment about potential hdmi 2.1 upgradability of current units ! What was the cost of this in the past (ex 1.4 to 2.0)? Can you do yourself ?


1.4 to 2.0 required buying the Pro. On the original Radiance XD, which was an HDMI 1.1 device, it was possible to support some later features like 3D without new hardware. Lumagen charged $300/400 for this. I suspect VRR may fall into this category - depending on ultimate max frame rate required it seems doable given the architecture, but it wasn't promised upfront. Then again, DTM has been a wonderful "freebie"


----------



## DenverMDM

I currently have a Lumagen with the 9GHZ output card. When watching Gemini Man in 4K at 60HZ the picture is down graded to an 8 bit instead of a 12 bit picture. Although it looks phenomenal, I’m thinking if I purchased the 18GHZ card would it be even better looking going to my JVC RS500? My JVC can support 4K at 60HZ, correct. Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## Kris Deering

DenverMDM said:


> I currently have a Lumagen with the 9GHZ output card. When watching Gemini Man in 4K at 60HZ the picture is down graded to an 8 bit instead of a 12 bit picture. Although it looks phenomenal, I’m thinking if I purchased the 18GHZ card would it be even better looking going to my JVC RS500? My JVC can support 4K at 60HZ, correct. Thanks in advance for the help!


An 18G cars should work fine with your 4500, but not sure how improvement you’d see in the image. But it would then be 12bit 422 instead of 8 bit 420. PM me if I can help.


----------



## ht guy

Speaking of which...

4242 here. My installer put the Oppo on input 1, AppleTV on 2 and TiVo Mini 4k on 3.

Believe the 18g cards are 1 & 3, so had I been here for the full install (he was also putting up the pj), I would have asked to swap the ATV and TiVo inputs.

The remote is programmed, so while I can swap the cables and use the remote to switch to the "correct" input, I would need to pick up the ATV remote once switched (until I can get him back for a bit more programming.)

Watching the ATV on input 2, it seems to look fine.

Will I get a better picture with the AppleTV on the 18 vs 9g input?


----------



## Eventidal

ht guy said:


> Speaking of which...
> 
> 4242 here. My installer put the Oppo on input 1, AppleTV on 2 and TiVo Mini 4k on 3.
> 
> Believe the 18g cards are 1 & 3, so had I been here for the full install (he was also putting up the pj), I would have asked to swap the ATV and TiVo inputs.
> 
> The remote is programmed, so while I can swap the cables and use the remote to switch to the "correct" input, I would need to pick up the ATV remote once switched (until I can get him back for a bit more programming.)
> 
> Watching the ATV on input 2, it seems to look fine.
> 
> Will I get a better picture with the AppleTV on the 18 vs 9g input?


How many input cards did you buy? You can easily look it up on the info screen (press ok to step through these). Look for 18Ghz, y/n. Each card has two inputs and they are sitting next to each other (aligned) . So it is either Input 1&2 or 3&4 for 18Ghz if you have one card only. If you bought two cards you have got four 18Ghz inputs and you are fine. I definitely recommend Apple TV to use 18Ghz inputs (for 60hz playback with 4:2:2 12bit)


----------



## bobof

ht guy said:


> Speaking of which...
> 
> 4242 here. My installer put the Oppo on input 1, AppleTV on 2 and TiVo Mini 4k on 3.
> 
> Believe the 18g cards are 1 & 3, so had I been here for the full install (he was also putting up the pj), I would have asked to swap the ATV and TiVo inputs.
> 
> The remote is programmed, so while I can swap the cables and use the remote to switch to the "correct" input, I would need to pick up the ATV remote once switched (until I can get him back for a bit more programming.)
> 
> Watching the ATV on input 2, it seems to look fine.
> 
> Will I get a better picture with the AppleTV on the 18 vs 9g input?


You could swap which physical connector is hooked up to which logical input in the menus, swap the cables, and then your remote programming should still work... If you're not confident around the settings ask your installer to talk you through it for your system (maybe back up your programming too first using the Lumagen utility). 
Page 25:
http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_071819.pdf



> Physical to Virtual Input Mapping
> If desired the input selection for HDMI sources can be assigned to different physical HDMI inputs. This
> “Virtual Input” feature can be useful if a receiver or HDMI switcher is used to switch several HDMI sources
> to a single input on the Radiance. Using Virtual Inputs different settings and calibrations for several virtual
> HDMI inputs can be stored for the same physical HDMI input. The command is:
> MENU → Input → Options → HDMI Setup → Physical In


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey, all:

I just updated to the latest firmware—what changes do I need to make in the Lumagen RadiancePro?

I tried searching because I know I saw it before (in a post from Jim, I believe) but my Tapatalk search function is not pulling relevant posts up right now.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ht guy

Eventidal said:


> How many input cards did you buy? You can easily look it up on the info screen (press ok to step through these). Look for 18Ghz, y/n. Each card has two inputs and they are sitting next to each other (aligned) . So it is either Input 1&2 or 3&4 for 18Ghz if you have one card only. If you bought two cards you have got four 18Ghz inputs and you are fine. I definitely recommend Apple TV to use 18Ghz inputs (for 60hz playback with 4:2:2 12bit)





bobof said:


> You could swap which physical connector is hooked up to which logical input in the menus, swap the cables, and then your remote programming should still work... If you're not confident around the settings ask your installer to talk you through it for your system (maybe back up your programming too first using the Lumagen utility)
> Page 25:
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_071819.pdf


Thanks guys!

Eventidal, I bought it used, and it should have 2 18Ghz and 2 9Ghz inputs. Don't know why I thought the 18Ghz inputs would be 1 & 3. If they are 1 and 2, problem solved. Checking the info screens tonight.

bobof, I didn't realize I could assign inputs (like in my Yamaha.) So even if the 18g inputs are 1 & 3 (now sounds not possible,) problem solved - and I need to RTFM.

Much appreciated.


----------



## bobof

ht guy said:


> bobof, I didn't realize I could assign inputs (like in my Yamaha.) So even if the 18g inputs are 1 & 3 (now sounds not possible,) problem solved - and I need to RTFM.


All the IO cards span 2 HDMI connector holes on the rear panel. It is the 18G output card that has an 18G (video + audio) plus a 9G (audio with blue screen). The 18G input card has two 18G ports next to each other, and a 9G card has 2 9G ports next to each other. So they'll always be grouped in pairs at the input side.


----------



## ht guy

Makes complete sense.

...no wonder the AppleTV looked so good (and everything passed the ATV's HDMI test.)


----------



## crtone

Mike Garrett said:


> Same here, Roku Ultra connected direct to Lumagen, no issues.


Same here. I have Roku Ultra ([email protected] 60 Hz HDR Chroma 4:2:2) connected to a Lumagen Radiance Pro (all 18 GHz inputs) and have no problems.


On the hand I have AppleTV 4K also connected to the Pro (4K SDR HDR enabled with Chroma 4;2:0/4:4:4) and it is temperamental. On some days it works flawlessly, as soon as I wake it up, on other days (50-70% times), the screen starts to blink after a few minutes every 10-15 sec. Sometimes a restart helps, other times several restarts and a "check HDMI" and a restart would be needed. I have a 13.3 OS on the unit.


----------



## bobof

crtone said:


> On the hand I have AppleTV 4K also connected to the Pro (4K SDR HDR enabled with Chroma 4;2:0/4:4:4) and it is temperamental. On some days it works flawlessly, as soon as I wake it up, on other days (50-70% times), the screen starts to blink after a few minutes every 10-15 sec. Sometimes a restart helps, other times several restarts and a "check HDMI" and a restart would be needed. I have a 13.3 OS on the unit.


I found similar with the AppleTV 4K. I've set it not to sleep, and modified my Harmony configuration to reset it every time I switch to it. Other than the annoyance of starting up the AppleTV activity taking a bit long, it seems to behave robustly configured like that.


----------



## crtone

bobof said:


> I found similar with the AppleTV 4K. I've set it not to sleep, and modified my Harmony configuration to reset it every time I switch to it. Other than the annoyance of starting up the AppleTV activity taking a bit long, it seems to behave robustly configured like that.


Thanks for the suggestion. I do not have Harmony. Also, did you mean "reset" or "restart" ? Resetting the AppleTV 4K deletes all the account info.


----------



## SJHT

crtone said:


> Same here. I have Roku Ultra ([email protected] 60 Hz HDR Chroma 4:2:2) connected to a Lumagen Radiance Pro (all 18 GHz inputs) and have no problems.
> 
> 
> On the hand I have AppleTV 4K also connected to the Pro (4K SDR HDR enabled with Chroma 4;2:0/4:4:4) and it is temperamental. On some days it works flawlessly, as soon as I wake it up, on other days (50-70% times), the screen starts to blink after a few minutes every 10-15 sec. Sometimes a restart helps, other times several restarts and a "check HDMI" and a restart would be needed. I have a 13.3 OS on the unit.


I've never had any issue with AppleTV 4K. Per Kris Deering's recommendation, I'm running 4K SDR with all frame matching on. 4K HDR does come on with Dolby Vision titles and that even still works fine. Maybe different displays are the issue (or even cables) vs. Lumagen Pro. I have a Sony 995. SJ


----------



## bobof

crtone said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I do not have Harmony. Also, did you mean "reset" or "restart" ? Resetting the AppleTV 4K deletes all the account info.


Sorry, I said "Reset" in the PC lingo. I mean "restart" according to the AppleTV menu lingo.  On the Harmony remote, to add to the confusion, the discrete direct remote code that causes a "restart" is actually labelled "reboot"! I guess at least that is fairly unambiguous... Anyway, I have the "Reboot" command added to the Harmony startup sequence. It does the reboot last thing, so the Lumagen, AVR and Projector are all as they should be at the point the AppleTV boots up.


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> I've never had any issue with AppleTV 4K. Per Kris Deering's recommendation, I'm running 4K SDR with all frame matching on. 4K HDR does come on with Dolby Vision titles and that even still works fine. Maybe different displays are the issue (or even cables) vs. Lumagen Pro. I have a Sony 995. SJ


Perhaps. I'm using an HTBT system from Atlona connected ultimately to a JVC projector. On my system when there are issues it often gets into a state where starting play of content just gives a spinny wheel, and eventually you get some complaints about HDCP etc on screen from the AppleTV.


----------



## baseball0618

Anyone else have lip sync issues w/ Amazon prime streaming via an APTV4K? Only seems to be amazon prime streaming that exhibits a lip sync issue.


----------



## bobof

baseball0618 said:


> Anyone else have lip sync issues w/ Amazon prime streaming via an APTV4K? Only seems to be amazon prime streaming that exhibits a lip sync issue.


I don't think it is anything to do with the Lumagen, I also get this issue with it on my lounge system which has no Lumagen. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## baseball0618

bobof said:


> I don't think it is anything to do with the Lumagen, I also get this issue with it on my lounge system which has no Lumagen.
> 
> Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


I figured it wasn't the Lumagen, just wanted to check with others whom have the same equipment chain to make sure it wasn't an issue unique to my HT . Thanks!


----------



## SJHT

Speaking of lip sync, what test material do folks use for 4K24 and 4k60? Would be cool if the Lumagen had a test pattern for that .


----------



## bobof

baseball0618 said:


> I figured it wasn't the Lumagen, just wanted to check with others whom have the same equipment chain to make sure it wasn't an issue unique to my HT . Thanks!


My lounge and cinema systems couldn't be more different and they both do it occasionally, the only common denominator is the Apple TV and Amazon service.


----------



## Mark_H

SJHT said:


> Speaking of lip sync, what test material do folks use for 4K24 and 4k60? Would be cool if the Lumagen had a test pattern for that .


Best method is to use a lip sync meter and appropriate test patterns (eg spears & munsil test disc).

Next best is to find a film with a nice long talky scene, preferably with good close shots of lips and use that to dial it in. 

You will need to do it for multiple codecs (PCM/DTS/TrueHD/DD) as they all have different latencies, as well as devices, eg as people have mentioned the ATV4 above.

A good approach is the old computer method of binary chopping - start watching something - then adjust lipsync by a big number either way - decide which is better and go to that point - then divide the number you used in half and try adjusting by that value either way - choose the best, move to it and divide again. In this way you can very quickly dial in to a good number.

The ATV needs a lot of adjustment to get right - under my TV it's 100msec of adjustment. In the cinema it's even more. Different apps on the ATV, eg Netflix vs Amazon also have different settings. It's a real pain...


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Different apps on the ATV, eg Netflix vs Amazon also have different settings. It's a real pain...


I'm pretty sure the Amazon app suffers from going miles out occasionally too, which I've rarely seen on other apps. Not sure why / what happens, but it goes _very_ wrong at times.


----------



## Mark_H

Yes, it does. I'm guessing the source material rather than Amazon app. Discs do the same if mastered incorrectly. I'm pretty good at dialing in on the fly these days and my control system is set up to allow me to do the necessary adjustments very quickly. I've probably spent more time taming lipsync than any other thing in my cinema :/


----------



## dlinsley

Out of the lip sync methods/patterns I've tried in the past, dialing in by hand, the Spears and Munsil 4k disc has been by far the easiest. The disc is worth it for this alone!


----------



## docrog

dlinsley said:


> Out of the lip sync methods/patterns I've tried in the past, dialing in by hand, the Spears and Munsil 4k disc has been by far the easiest. The disc is worth it for this alone!


That will work for properly mastered UHD discs, but any delay that you need to compensate for won't necessarily be properly carried over to streaming sources.


----------



## dlinsley

docrog said:


> That will work for properly mastered UHD discs, but any delay that you need to compensate for won't necessarily be properly carried over to streaming sources.


It gives you a good baseline though, I never could get it perfect before. Also, I've not actually noticed any issues with streaming Netflix/Amazon/Disney+ from the Roku Ultra since. Admittedly we haven't watched much on Disney+ other than the Mandalorian, which hardly has any dialogue, but catching up on Downton on Amazon is all dialogue.

Maybe Stacey and Don could get their disc on Movies Anywhere, so it can freely port to many of the streaming services (in the USA at least) for testing on each


----------



## crtone

bobof said:


> Sorry, I said "Reset" in the PC lingo. I mean "restart" according to the AppleTV menu lingo.  On the Harmony remote, to add to the confusion, the discrete direct remote code that causes a "restart" is actually labelled "reboot"! I guess at least that is fairly unambiguous... Anyway, I have the "Reboot" command added to the Harmony startup sequence. It does the reboot last thing, so the Lumagen, AVR and Projector are all as they should be at the point the AppleTV boots up.


Thanks. I will look into getting the Harmony.


Another interesting factor. I also have an HTBT system from Atlona connected to the projector. But then, the Roku Ultra ([email protected] Hz HDR (bt. 2020) 4:2:2/4:2:0 Chroma) has no problem with this setup.


----------



## crtone

Update:


My system with AppleTV 4K is stable now. I made the following changes:


1. Updated to 13.3.1 OS.
2. set the unit to "never sleep."


No more screen blinking. Not sure, though, how long the unit fan would la


----------



## baseball0618

bobof said:


> I'm pretty sure the Amazon app suffers from going miles out occasionally too, which I've rarely seen on other apps. Not sure why / what happens, but it goes _very_ wrong at times.


Agree. I usually have to adjust at least 200ms to make it palpable.


----------



## Ash Sharma

My Trinnov Altitude 32 firmware upgrade payed havoc on HDMI signals from Lumagen.
Finally the only connection which have both audio and video was Lumagen Output 1 (18GHZ) to Trinnov and Trinnov Output 2 to projector.
I lost the ability to split the audio and video - Output 1 Lumagen video to Projector - Output 4 audio to Trinnov Input for audio (when I connect this way I get video but no audio).
Not sure if this is a problem but for now that is the only way I can have both audio and video.
Projector is Sony VW5000.
If anyone has any tips I would love to know.


----------



## netroamer

Disconnect the Trinnov from the Lumagen and the 5000. Send the Lumagen Output 4 to the 5000. Confirm you have video. Send the Lumagen Output 1 to the Trinnov. Confirm you have audio and double check that video is still present on the 5000.




Ash Sharma said:


> My Trinnov Altitude 32 firmware upgrade payed havoc on HDMI signals from Lumagen.
> Finally the only connection which have both audio and video was Lumagen Output 1 (18GHZ) to Trinnov and Trinnov Output 2 to projector.
> I lost the ability to split the audio and video - Output 1 Lumagen video to Projector - Output 4 audio to Trinnov Input for audio (when I connect this way I get video but no audio).
> Not sure if this is a problem but for now that is the only way I can have both audio and video.
> Projector is Sony VW5000.
> If anyone has any tips I would love to know.


----------



## Ash Sharma

netroamer said:


> Disconnect the Trinnov from the Lumagen and the 5000. Send the Lumagen Output 4 to the 5000. Confirm you have video. Send the Lumagen Output 1 to the Trinnov. Confirm you have audio and double check that video is still present on the 5000.


No luck that way...
Only way it is working is Output 4 from Lumagen to Input 7 of Trinnov and Output 2 of Trinnov to Projector VW5000...


----------



## SJHT

My update to my Alt32 had no impact. I’m using the audio only output from the Lumagen Pro to the Trinnov and using my 18ghz output to my Sony 995. I’m sure Jim will update his setup for the Lumagen Theater. Maybe he could offer feedback. I love the fact that he is using this same setup which he does because the Lumagen/Trinnov is a common config. SJ


----------



## appelz

SJHT said:


> My update to my Alt32 had no impact. I’m using the audio only output from the Lumagen Pro to the Trinnov and using my 18ghz output to my Sony 995. I’m sure Jim will update his setup for the Lumagen Theater. Maybe he could offer feedback. I love the fact that he is using this same setup which he does because the Lumagen/Trinnov is a common config. SJ


Had quite a few other clients upgrade over the weekend with similar, if not exact, setups. For some reason, this one got goofy. I had an Altitude recently do something similar, but was solved by temporarily connecting the display to the HDMI output of the Altitude, but that didn't work on this one. Ash and I spent close to two hours testing different configurations while I was logged in remotely. Since he was planning on watching a movie that evening, and this worked, we went with this for now.


----------



## SJHT

appelz said:


> Had quite a few other clients upgrade over the weekend with similar, if not exact, setups. For some reason, this one got goofy. I had an Altitude recently do something similar, but was solved by temporarily connecting the display to the HDMI output of the Altitude, but that didn't work on this one. Ash and I spent close to two hours testing different configurations while I was logged in remotely. Since he was planning on watching a movie that evening, and this worked, we went with this for now.


One of the reasons I love the Lumagen is that it separates video and audio integration. When I swapped out my MX160 for the Trinnov, I didn’t even have to worry about video related issues. Only audio. Jim gave me feedback regarding my Alt32 connection based upon their experience with their own setup. Now I’m confused! How could an Alt32 firmware upgrade impact HDMI issues or something? I had zero issues as I kind of expected. I only feed audio to the Trinnov so if the source didn’t change, what could possibly change?


----------



## audioguy

*AppleTV Settings when using a Lumagen*

*Anyone who has an Apple TV with a Lumagen: * Is there a way to set the AppleTV to output "native" video resolution and let the Lumagen do the up-scaling? The settings :allow" for me to select from a list of resolutions which means I would have to know what the content is in order to set the resolution to that value - if I am reading it correctly. This came up last evening when we wanted to use the ATV to watch the game (which apparently was in 1080P).


Thanks


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> *Anyone who has an Apple TV with a Lumagen: * Is there a way to set the AppleTV to output "native" video resolution and let the Lumagen do the up-scaling? The settings :allow" for me to select from a list of resolutions which means I would have to know what the content is in order to set the resolution to that value - if I am reading it correctly. This came up last evening when we wanted to use the ATV to watch the game (which apparently was in 1080P).


There's no setting in the AppleTV to make it autoswitch. If you know the content is 1080p you can make a memory on the Lumagen that sets the EDID to "1080p only" which will stop the AppleTV from outputting 4K. Alternatively you would have to change the output settings on the AppleTV to 1080p/4k.


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> There's no setting in the AppleTV to make it autoswitch. If you know the content is 1080p you can make a memory on the Lumagen that sets the EDID to "1080p only" which will stop the AppleTV from outputting 4K. Alternatively you would have to change the output settings on the AppleTV to 4K.



Thanks. But what a pain in the rear that is!!! And how do I determine what the native ATV content is? With a ATV based movie I can know but if I am using, for example, the Fox Sports App, how do I know?


Apple: Love 'em and/or Hate 'em!!


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Thanks. But what a pain in the rear that is!!! And how do I determine what the native ATV content is? With a ATV based movie I can know but if I am using, for example, the Fox Sports App, how do I know?
> 
> 
> Apple: Love 'em and/or Hate 'em!!


Yup, it is completely impractical.
If you have a Mac, using X-code it is possible to enable developer mode. That in turn lets you enter a special menu on the AppleTV and enable an overlay which does show the original stream format - but again it is impractical as you'd have to interrupt your viewing pleasure for each item. Maybe you could work out some general rules you thought applied and set up separate activities for certain kinds of content or apps (if, for example, some apps always stream 1080p).

If there was a way to get at that information programmatically via some API then I guess it might be possible to make the Lumagen change the EDID when you detected the playing content was 1080p, and then make the Lumagen change the EDID. I doubt the AppleTV will like much the display "changing" while content is playing though, so it might all be a lot of faff for a poor result.


----------



## scrowe

It's not that bad, it's just a single button press to switch the Lumagen Input from one memory to another. I wish the Lumagen could offer more resolutions from the EDID, but as far as the AppleTV goes does it do anything other than 1080p versus 2160p for any commercial content, assuming Match Frame Rate works in the playback app? I have to use this method between Sky satellite, Panny Bluray and AppleTV but luckily I always know if I am going to be watching native HD versus UHD in advance, and except for Sky, the device recognises the Mem change dynamically.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> It's not that bad, it's just a single button press to switch the Lumagen Input from one memory to another. I wish the Lumagen could offer more resolutions from the EDID, but as far as the AppleTV goes does it do anything other than 1080p versus 2160p for any commercial content, assuming Match Frame Rate works in the playback app? I have to use this method between Sky satellite, Panny Bluray and AppleTV but luckily I always know if I am going to be watching native HD versus UHD in advance, and except for Sky, the device recognises the Mem change dynamically.


The switch itself is easy to implement, the problem is knowing whether or not switching is appropriate. If you leave it in 1080p you don't get told content is 4k, so you have to leave it in 4k and work out whether the content is 1080p and then switch. It's a bit inconsistent between apps whether it will tell you or not in the UI (Netflix usually does).

I think in general anything where you have to know something about the content and do something to play it optimally is just begging for the wrong choice to be made; not that it is Lumagen's fault - it is a limitation of the player not to have a source direct type function.

For what it is worth I don't sweat it though myself. IMHO by the time you're watching streaming it's already reasonably compromised if 1080p (because the 1080p streams aren't great in the first place), and the AppleTV isn't that bad at scaling. For disc content or disc backups I use an Oppo which does implement source direct, so the Lumagen is always doing the scaling.


----------



## scrowe

bobof said:


> I think in general anything where you have to know something about the content and do something to play it optimally is just begging for the wrong choice to be made; not that it is Lumagen's fault - it is a limitation of the player not to have a source direct type function.


I still don’t think it’s an issue. Outside of AppleTV+, Netflix and Prime, is any other streaming service doing anything but 1080p. As for those popular services, you know that any new series native to the streaming providor is probably 4K HDR, and everything else in 1080p. Plus the services show on the splash screens when browsing what the available resolution is.

P.S. Is your Oppo a clone M9702? Almost did a group buy this weekend on one, but opted for an Odroid N2, with a view to playback of backed up disc content source-direct from an NFS server.


----------



## docrog

scrowe said:


> I still don’t think it’s an issue. Outside of AppleTV+, Netflix and Prime, is any other streaming service doing anything but 1080p. As for those popular services, you know that any new series native to the streaming providor is probably 4K HDR, and everything else in 1080p. Plus the services show on the splash screens when browsing what the available resolution is.
> 
> P.S. Is your Oppo a clone M9702? Almost did a group buy this weekend on one, but opted for an Odroid N2, with a view to playback of backed up disc content source-direct from an NFS server.


Couldn't you add another inexpensive non-UHD (legacy) streaming device from Roku or Apple (etc.) and use that device when the content is 1080p?


----------



## scrowe

docrog said:


> Couldn't you add another inexpensive non-UHD (legacy) streaming device from Roku or Apple (etc.) and use that device when the content is 1080p?


Well I have the ATV4K. Switching input to watch a different resolution on a different device versus switching memory on a Lumagen? The AppleTV4K is the best overall available streaming device for commercial content. Not for curated local content though, the ultimate streamer there still seems to be a bit of a holy grail.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> I still don’t think it’s an issue. Outside of AppleTV+, Netflix and Prime, is any other streaming service doing anything but 1080p. As for those popular services, you know that any new series native to the streaming providor is probably 4K HDR, and everything else in 1080p. Plus the services show on the splash screens when browsing what the available resolution is.
> 
> P.S. Is your Oppo a clone M9702? Almost did a group buy this weekend on one, but opted for an Odroid N2, with a view to playback of backed up disc content source-direct from an NFS server.


Several things on Netflix that are new are 1080p HDR, but I take your general point (Star Trek is the first that comes to mind). Netflix made a bit of a song and dance about HDR being more important than 4k a little while ago I recall. 

Anyway, as I say, I personally can't be bothered to change to 1080p out on a manual basis for shows (I really dislike doing stuff I shouldn't have to, it's almost a principle, chopping off my nose to spite my face hehe), I was just answering the question of how you'd do it to the OP, who seems of a similar mindset. However, if you can be bothered to select options according to content then more power to you! You win at getting the best video   

Yes, I should have said "Oppo"... hehe. It came via the Spanish group buy and arrived in good time, in one piece and is still working several months later. Am using it to playback own 4K disc backups off an NFS "UnRAID" server; mkv mostly. Works pretty well if you can get over the shocking UI. Has a couple of annoyances that I understand are actually Original Oppo quirks - like losing audio ocassionally and needing to switch soundtracks to get it back.

Edit: I should add, more recently for my own system I've actually been outputting 1080p native content from the Oppo at 1080p from the Lumagen and disabling eShift completely in my X7900 fauxK projector. I actually think this gives a better image with 1080p content than any of the scaling options. Of course this is unlikely the case with 4K native units most folk are looking at now or upgrading to.


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> annoyances that I understand are actually Original Oppo quirks - like losing audio ocassionally and needing to switch soundtracks to get it back.
> 
> Edit: I should add, more recently for my own system I've actually been outputting 1080p native content from the Oppo at 1080p from the Lumagen and disabling eShift completely in my X7900 fauxK projector. I actually think this gives a better image with 1080p content than any of the scaling options. Of course this is unlikely the case with 4K native units most folk are looking at now or upgrading to.


I can confirm that both of my units, Oppo 203 AND the Zappiti have that occasional audio loss with mkv files. I do the exact same trick - switching soundtracks. So it´s not just an Oppo problem. It´s happily quite rare...


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I can confirm that both of my units, Oppo 203 AND the Zappiti have that occasional audio loss with mkv files. I do the exact same trick - switching soundtracks. So it´s not just an Oppo problem. It´s happily quite rare...


Thanks, you've saved me a couple of hundred quid and the effort to work it out. Zappiti were on my list of things to try.
So frustrating that something you'd expect wouldn't be >that< hard seems to evade these high-end products... The mind boggles.


----------



## scrowe

That's the pain of it. A couple years back I paid £200 for an ultimate streaming device, based on reputation, being the Dune 4K Pro, supposedly the best chipset paired with the best software house. But it's just been continual finding limitations and bugs. It was OK for episodic MKVs from BD, native resolution and framerate, bitstreaming HD audio. But ISOs are buggy, and ICBA ripping and naming small mkv. Then I wanted to remux, Atmos into 3D titles, but it doesn't support the mk3d format. And it has undefeatable 4k up scaling from DVD mpeg or iso. This was long after realising it didn't properly support Netflix, Prime, which is why I ultimately went Appletv. A Lumagen owner needs sourcedirect for local curated content. Hopefully this odroid N2 I now have in my bag whilst travelling home running CoreELEC is the droid I've been looking for, apart from its not android its Linux-based like the Oppo.


----------



## MOberhardt

scrowe said:


> That's the pain of it. A couple years back I paid £200 for an ultimate streaming device, based on reputation, being the Dune 4K Pro, supposedly the best chipset paired with the best software house. But it's just been continual finding limitations and bugs. It was OK for episodic MKVs from BD, native resolution and framerate, bitstreaming HD audio. But ISOs are buggy, and ICBA ripping and naming small mkv. Then I wanted to remux, Atmos into 3D titles, but it doesn't support the mk3d format. And it has undefeatable 4k up scaling from DVD mpeg or iso. This was long after realising it didn't properly support Netflix, Prime, which is why I ultimately went Appletv. A Lumagen owner needs sourcedirect for local curated content. Hopefully this odroid N2 I now have in my bag whilst travelling home running CoreELEC is the droid I've been looking for, apart from its not android its Linux-based like the Oppo.


Yeah none of them get it right. I have a zidoo. I do a lot of Atmos 3d remuxing also. Easiest to build an iso and burn to a Blu Ray to be honest.


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah none of them get it right. I have a zidoo. I do a lot of Atmos 3d remuxing also. Easiest to build an iso and burn to a Blu Ray to be honest.


Not sure I agree with this. To me, burning to a blu-ray is cost prohibitive, especially when dealing with 4K content where the size can exceed 50GB.

I have my Oppo 203 which plays nearly everything, and also the m9702 (Oppo 203 clone) which plays ISOs, etc...never had any issues with any content at all.


----------



## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> Not sure I agree with this. To me, burning to a blu-ray is cost prohibitive, especially when dealing with 4K content where the size can exceed 50GB.
> 
> I have my Oppo 203 which plays nearly everything, and also the m9702 (Oppo 203 clone) which plays ISOs, etc...never had any issues with any content at all.


I was specifically talking about 3d atmos remuxes. I've never seen any need to remux atmos onto a UHD...


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> I was specifically talking about 3d atmos remuxes. I've never seen any need to remux atmos onto a UHD...


I've had no issues with any of my 3D atmos remuxes on my playback devices...all play flawlessly...


----------



## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> I've had no issues with any of my 3D atmos remuxes on my playback devices...all play flawlessly...


Isos or mkvs? And what devices? I keep researching and have tried a couple but have ultimately been disappointed. And so many have glaring inexcusable issues with even properly handling something incredibly basic 23.976 fps...


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> Isos or mkvs? And what devices? I keep researching and have tried a couple but have ultimately been disappointed. And so many have glaring inexcusable issues with even properly handling something incredibly basic 23.976 fps...



Already mentioned earlier, but I’m using an Oppo 203 and an m9702 (Oppo 203 clone). No problem with ISOs on m9702, no problems with mkvs on either device. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

fatherom said:


> Already mentioned earlier, but I’m using an Oppo 203 and an m9702 (Oppo 203 clone). No problem with ISOs on m9702, no problems with mkvs on either device.


The Oppo doesn't do 3D MKV though, does it (unless I'm being a dummy, and the MKVs I'm making are defective)? So they must be ISOs you're talking about for 3D?
Do you have a recipe for making 3D ISOs of Atmos titles (just main feature)? When I tried, tsremux was giving me all kinds of bother as it didn't like the Atmos sound for some reason it seems 

Sorry for the off topic but I've been tearing my hair out a bit with this.


----------



## OzHDHT

bobof said:


> The Oppo doesn't do 3D MKV though, does it (unless I'm being a dummy, and the MKVs I'm making are defective)? So they must be ISOs you're talking about for 3D?
> Do you have a recipe for making 3D ISOs of Atmos titles (just main feature)? When I tried, tsremux was giving me all kinds of bother as it didn't like the Atmos sound for some reason it seems
> 
> Sorry for the off topic but I've been tearing my hair out a bit with this.


Could be converted 3D format like side by side MKVs. Not that I had any reason to test that format when I've had Oppos in the past.


----------



## MOberhardt

bobof said:


> The Oppo doesn't do 3D MKV though, does it (unless I'm being a dummy, and the MKVs I'm making are defective)? So they must be ISOs you're talking about for 3D?
> Do you have a recipe for making 3D ISOs of Atmos titles (just main feature)? When I tried, tsremux was giving me all kinds of bother as it didn't like the Atmos sound for some reason it seems
> 
> Sorry for the off topic but I've been tearing my hair out a bit with this.


TSRemux works perfect for me for iso. I've never had an issue. It doesn't natively recognize the atmos metadata, and just shows as 7.1 (same with DTSX), but of you mux it, and open the iso with DBInfo, it is fine, and it works.


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> TSRemux works perfect for me for iso. I've never had an issue. It doesn't natively recognize the atmos metadata, and just shows as 7.1 (same with DTSX), but of you mux it, and open the iso with DBInfo, it is fine, and it works.


I'll have to give it another go. I thought last time I tried it was borked on the files and exited, but it was a while ago. Thanks!


----------



## DannyBoy73

fatherom said:


> Not sure I agree with this. To me, burning to a blu-ray is cost prohibitive, especially when dealing with 4K content where the size can exceed 50GB.
> 
> I have my Oppo 203 which plays nearly everything, and also the m9702 (Oppo 203 clone) which plays ISOs, etc...never had any issues with any content at all.


Would you recommend the m9702? I've been looking at them for awhile...

Do you use the 203 for physical discs and m9702 for files/isos?


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> The Oppo doesn't do 3D MKV though, does it (unless I'm being a dummy, and the MKVs I'm making are defective)? S


The Zappiti does


----------



## fatherom

Eventidal said:


> The Zappiti does


As does my Oppo 103.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Yes, I should have said "Oppo"... hehe. It came via the Spanish group buy and arrived in good time, in one piece and is still working several months later. Am using it to playback own 4K disc backups off an NFS "UnRAID" server; mkv mostly. Works pretty well if you can get over the shocking UI. Has a couple of annoyances that I understand are actually Original Oppo quirks - like losing audio ocassionally and needing to switch soundtracks to get it back.





Eventidal said:


> I can confirm that both of my units, Oppo 203 AND the Zappiti have that occasional audio loss with mkv files. I do the exact same trick - switching soundtracks. So it´s not just an Oppo problem. It´s happily quite rare...





fatherom said:


> I have my Oppo 203 which plays nearly everything, and also the m9702 (Oppo 203 clone) which plays ISOs, etc...never had any issues with any content at all.


I also have no issues with MKV audio playback on my OPPO; there is an occasional slight pause (~2 seconds) of both audio and video, but that is a network or NAS issue. The issue with losing audio entirely is if you play a DTS or DTS-HD MA track, and then go back and try to play the Dolby Atmos track, it will fail (no sound output) until you play another Dolby Digital track or power-cycle the OPPO. I always rip MKVs with multiple English tracks if they exist on disc for this reason. This issue may be a MediaTek chipset issue, and may explain why OPPO was never able to fix it.

Mark


----------



## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> As does my Oppo 103.


Hmm, I have an oppo 103. Do they play 3d mkvs from USB. With Atmos etc? That is handy to know


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> The DTM is setup for a projector out of the box, not a flat panel. You would not want to run it in SDR2020 for an OLED. So far I have not seen a reason to use a Lumagen for DTM with a flat panel like the 7 series OLED, but I also haven’t done any testing directly to see what merits it would have vice the onboard tone mapping.





DannyBoy73 said:


> Is it not reasonable to assume the Lumagen DTM would be better than LG's onboard tone mapping? Also, if what you say is true, wouldn't that also apply to JVC projectors with the now onboard tone mapping?





Kris Deering said:


> Tone mapping for an OLED vs a projector are really two entirely different animals. An OLED has enough overall brightness that the benefits of Lumagen's DTM aren't nearly as drastic as they are with a projector. It is complete apples and oranges.
> 
> It would not apply to JVC's tone mapping either, you use one or the other, and I would suggest the Lumagen for the tone map as it outperforms the JVC's (though the JVC does an great job for an onboard projector tone map).


Kris, 

I find this very surprising, given the Radiance Pro performs Dynamic Intra-Scene Tone Mapping, versus the LG OLEDs' (presumably) scene by scene tone mapping. I suspect that most of your calibration sessions are on projectors, not OLED panels, but I would have to think the Radiance Pro would improve on the LG native tone mapping. My 2017 LG OLED has ~540 Nits of brightness if memory serves, so that is almost 50% of a 1000 Nit mastered movie to squeeze into the display capabilities. 

I would like to say I have compared this for myself, but I have not. It is not for lack of trying though. I am using my Radiance Pro with two displays; a JVC RS540 in the theater, and an LG OLED 55B7A in the family room. I am using SDR2020 on the JVC projector for HDR content.

However, for the LG OLED, I was only able to successfully generate a 3D LUT for SDR using ChromaPure. I tried many many many times, worked with Tom, etc. and it just didn't work for me; the results were extremely poor. I did use the scenes from Mad Max and Magnificent 7, turning on an off the LG's native tone mapping, and it did improve the picture. I recently acquired LightSpace, but have not use the software yet, but if I am able to successfully generate a 3D LUT for HDR for the LG OLED, I will finally be able to make the comparison.

Mark


----------



## Kris Deering

giomania said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> The DTM is setup for a projector out of the box, not a flat panel. You would not want to run it in SDR2020 for an OLED. So far I have not seen a reason to use a Lumagen for DTM with a flat panel like the 7 series OLED, but I also havenâ€™️t done any testing directly to see what merits it would have vice the onboard tone mapping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DannyBoy73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it not reasonable to assume the Lumagen DTM would be better than LG's onboard tone mapping? Also, if what you say is true, wouldn't that also apply to JVC projectors with the now onboard tone mapping?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tone mapping for an OLED vs a projector are really two entirely different animals. An OLED has enough overall brightness that the benefits of Lumagen's DTM aren't nearly as drastic as they are with a projector. It is complete apples and oranges.
> 
> It would not apply to JVC's tone mapping either, you use one or the other, and I would suggest the Lumagen for the tone map as it outperforms the JVC's (though the JVC does an great job for an onboard projector tone map).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Kris,
> 
> I find this very surprising, given the Radiance Pro performs Dynamic Intra-Scene Tone Mapping, versus the LG OLEDs' (presumably) scene by scene tone mapping. I suspect that most of your calibration sessions are on projectors, not OLED panels, but I would have to think the Radiance Pro would improve on the LG native tone mapping. My 2017 LG OLED has ~540 Nits of brightness if memory serves, so that is almost 50% of a 1000 Nit mastered movie to squeeze into the display capabilities.
> 
> I would like to say I have compared this for myself, but I have not. It is not for lack of trying though. I am using my Radiance Pro with two displays; a JVC RS540 in the theater, and an LG OLED 55B7A in the family room. I am using SDR2020 on the JVC projector for HDR content.
> 
> However, for the LG OLED, I was only able to successfully generate a 3D LUT for SDR using ChromaPure. I tried many many many times, worked with Tom, etc. and it just didn't work for me; the results were extremely poor. I did use the scenes from Mad Max and Magnificent 7, turning on an off the LG's native tone mapping, and it did improve the picture. I recently acquired LightSpace, but have not use the software yet, but if I am able to successfully generate a 3D LUT for HDR for the LG OLED, I will finally be able to make the comparison.
> 
> Mark
Click to expand...

You are assuming the content is 1000 nits because of what? The metadata tells you the mastering monitor capability, not what the content is. MaxCLL tells you the peak value of a single R,G, or B pixel, not the peak white level. The majority of movies are still inside the SDR luminance range with highlights extending out. Perceptual highlights with a display that is nearly 600 nits would be significantly different than one with 100 nits, and the tone map roll off would be completely different. I think the assumptions here are based on assumptions about HDR that are frequently wrong.


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> I also have no issues with MKV audio playback on my OPPO; there is an occasional slight pause (~2 seconds) of both audio and video, but that is a network or NAS issue. The issue with losing audio entirely is if you play a DTS or DTS-HD MA track, and then go back and try to play the Dolby Atmos track, it will fail (no sound output) until you play another Dolby Digital track or power-cycle the OPPO. I always rip MKVs with multiple English tracks if they exist on disc for this reason. This issue may be a RealTek chipset issue, and may explain why OPPO was never able to fix it.


Thanks. That probably explains what is going on, appreciate the description. A bit of a fail really, how annoying... FWIW I _think_ the Oppo is Mediatek based, not Realtek


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> The Oppo doesn't do 3D MKV though, does it (unless I'm being a dummy, and the MKVs I'm making are defective)? So they must be ISOs you're talking about for 3D?
> Do you have a recipe for making 3D ISOs of Atmos titles (just main feature)? When I tried, tsremux was giving me all kinds of bother as it didn't like the Atmos sound for some reason it seems
> 
> Sorry for the off topic but I've been tearing my hair out a bit with this.


I am pretty sure only a jail-broken OPPO or the ChinOPPO are capable of playing ISO files. I have an older Mede8er that I used to play my 3D MKVs on, but these didn't work on the OPPO. Thanks to several members on the OPPO thread, here is how to get 3D playback to work on the OPPO using tsMuxer: 

1. Use Clone BD or MakeMKV to generate an MKV file from the disc or from an ISO.
2. Use tsMuxer to open the MKV.
3. Change the order of the MVC line item from 1st to 2nd place order. 
4. Change the file type from MKV to a m2ts (doing this from memory here).
5. Remux.

See this post on OPPO's sort of hidden "3D Ehancement", which is a major benefit of using the OPPO to play 3D vice other devices.

I hope this helps.

Mark


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Thanks. That probably explains what is going on, appreciate the description. A bit of a fail really, how annoying... FWIW I _think_ the Oppo is Mediatek based, not Realtek


Yes, that is correct, so I fixed my post.


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> You are assuming the content is 1000 nits because of what? The metadata tells you the mastering monitor capability, not what the content is. MaxCLL tells you the peak value of a single R,G, or B pixel, not the peak white level. The majority of movies are still inside the SDR luminance range with highlights extending out. Perceptual highlights with a display that is nearly 600 nits would be significantly different than one with 100 nits, and the tone map roll off would be completely different. I think the assumptions here are based on assumptions about HDR that are frequently wrong.


Touche'


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> The switch itself is easy to implement, the problem is knowing whether or not switching is appropriate. If you leave it in 1080p you don't get told content is 4k, so you have to leave it in 4k and work out whether the content is 1080p and then switch. It's a bit inconsistent between apps whether it will tell you or not in the UI (Netflix usually does).
> 
> I think in general anything where you have to know something about the content and do something to play it optimally is just begging for the wrong choice to be made; not that it is Lumagen's fault - it is a limitation of the player not to have a source direct type function.
> 
> *For what it is worth I don't sweat it though myself. IMHO by the time you're watching streaming it's already reasonably compromised if 1080p (because the 1080p streams aren't great in the first place), and the AppleTV isn't that bad at scaling. For disc content or disc backups I use an Oppo which does implement source direct, so the Lumagen is always doing the scaling.*



I do the same with Roku for streaming and Oppo for disc playback.


----------



## jaychatbonneau

I have a Sony VPL-VW520es that is only capable of playing 50/60 fps UHD in 8-bit 420 color and 24/25/30 fps UHD in 10-bit 422 color. HDR is not in play here as I am using and loving dynamic tone mapping. My disc player is an Oppo 203.

How do I set my Lumagen to take all 8-bit and 10-bit 50/60 fps 480i/480p to UHD sources, and convert the signal to UHD 8-bit 420 color with dithering?

How do I set my Lumagen to take all 24/25/30 fps 480i/480p to UHD sources, and convert the signal to 10-bit 422 UHD?

I want the color gamut of DVDs converted to Rec. 709. I want the gamut on everything else preserved. 

Thank you so much for your help!


----------



## blake

Is there any downside is having the Lumagen output hdmi (video and audio) to your prepro, then prepro to projector ?

As opposed to Lumagen output 1 to projector, Lumagen output 2 to prepro (for audio only)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

blake said:


> Is there any downside is having the Lumagen output hdmi (video and audio) to your prepro, then prepro to projector ?
> 
> As opposed to Lumagen output 1 to projector, Lumagen output 2 to prepro (for audio only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



To me its worth having one less step in the video chain. It's not to say your prepro will introduce anything unwanted but definitely removes any chance of it causing complications or if it's not fully HDMI 2.0 compliant let's say. I was literally stoked to be able to bypass my McIntosh MX160 in the video chain when I got my Lumagen as it was probably the most finnicky HDMI passthrough I'd encountered and total pain adjust as it had a slew of video input and output parameters. I now have flawless automated (via smart remote) switching between all sources to my 4500.


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> Is there any downside is having the Lumagen output hdmi (video and audio) to your prepro, then prepro to projector ?
> 
> As opposed to Lumagen output 1 to projector, Lumagen output 2 to prepro (for audio only)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had very rare but very annoying audio drop outs running everything through the receiver. No doubt HDMI cable related. Once I separated the audio and video ( like separating two kids that fight ), the drop outs went away 100%.


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## blake

Craig Peer said:


> I had very rare but very annoying audio drop outs running everything through the receiver. No doubt HDMI cable related. Once I separated the audio and video ( like separating two kids that fight ), the drop outs went away 100%.




Lol nice analogy. 

So would a unit like a 4242 still work that has 2 outputs (1 if 18 GHz). Could you use one x 18 ghz for your projector video, but still use the other output to pass audio only ?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

blake said:


> Lol nice analogy.
> 
> So would a unit like a 4242 still work that has 2 outputs (1 if 18 GHz). Could you use one x 18 ghz for your projector video, but still use the other output to pass audio only ?


The second output on an 18G card can only be used for that purpose. It only carries a static blue screen for video.


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## ccool96

blake said:


> Lol nice analogy.
> 
> So would a unit like a 4242 still work that has 2 outputs (1 if 18 GHz). Could you use one x 18 ghz for your projector video, but still use the other output to pass audio only ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yes, that’s exactly the way it would work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Craig Peer

blake said:


> Lol nice analogy.
> 
> So would a unit like a 4242 still work that has 2 outputs (1 if 18 GHz). Could you use one x 18 ghz for your projector video, but still use the other output to pass audio only ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yes - exactly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> I had very rare but very annoying audio drop outs running everything through the receiver. No doubt HDMI cable related. Once I separated the audio and video ( like separating two kids that fight ), the drop outs went away 100%.


Your experience does not mirror mine, where I have had *ZERO* issues (video deterioration/sync issues or audio dropouts/sync issues) running all video sources through my Yamaha RX-A3080 for switching and then to the Radiance Pro -> JVC NX7. It seems to be dependent on the capabilities/limitations of the AVR/pre-pro as to whether or not the video chain can be configured in a certain way. This has allowed me to utilize a single 18 gig input card (4240).


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> Your experience does not mirror mine, where I have had *ZERO* issues (video deterioration/sync issues or audio dropouts/sync issues) running all video sources through my Yamaha RX-A3080 for switching and then to the Radiance Pro -> JVC NX7. It seems to be dependent on the capabilities/limitations of the AVR/pre-pro as to whether or not the video chain can be configured in a certain way. This has allowed me to utilize a single 18 gig input card (4240).




That’s great to hear. And maybe Blake won’t have any problems. Try running through the receiver first. It might be something weird in my HDMI chain.

Wait - so you are running all of your HDMI sources to the receiver first, then running the HDMI output from the receiver to the Lumagen ? I didn't route things that way, but at this point everything works, so I'm not changing anything ! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

blake said:


> Is there any downside is having the Lumagen output hdmi (video and audio) to your prepro, then prepro to projector ? As opposed to Lumagen output 1 to projector, Lumagen output 2 to prepro (for audio only)


You could also try all video sources -> pre-pro -> Lumagen -> PJ; this configuration allows the pre-pro's GUI to be utilized. My video chain runs through my Yamaha RX-A3080 with this configuration and has been absolutely problem free (LightSpace calibration & system function).


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## blake

docrog said:


> Your experience does not mirror mine, where I have had *ZERO* issues (video deterioration/sync issues or audio dropouts/sync issues) running all video sources through my Yamaha RX-A3080 for switching and then to the Radiance Pro -> JVC NX7. It seems to be dependent on the capabilities/limitations of the AVR/pre-pro as to whether or not the video chain can be configured in a certain way. This has allowed me to utilize a single 18 gig input card (4240).




Can you still individually calibrate each source via the Lumagen if they are all coming in via a pre-pro ? Any disadvantage signal wise (assuming you don’t have hdmi sync and other issues)


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## OzHDHT

blake said:


> Can you still individually calibrate each source via the Lumagen if they are all coming in via a pre-pro ? Any disadvantage signal wise (assuming you don’t have hdmi sync and other issues)



Probably in most cases these days not really. It's more of an issue for 'purists' I'd say. But as others have said I'd try both methods and see which works the best in your HT. The pure annoyance of the MX160's passthrough was enough to make me want to cut it straight out of the video chain.


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## docrog

blake said:


> Can you still individually calibrate each source via the Lumagen if they are all coming in via a pre-pro ? Any disadvantage signal wise (assuming you don’t have hdmi sync and other issues)


Although my NX7 & 4240 were calibrated by Craig Rounds for various color spaces (Rec709, BT2020) and basic 3D, individual sources were not otherwise calibrated in the video chain that I'd indicated. I'd suggest that calibrators who monitor/participate in this thread could chime in as to whether or not source specific calibration is essential. As I previously indicated, my HDMI sync times/stability have been unaffected when comparing the presence/absence of the Lumagen, which operates as expected with the most current firmware. As Jim Peterson and others have suggested, my success (with the RX-A3080) may not be reproducible with other AVR/pre-pro devices and, therefore, is not the configuration most typically recommended.

EDIT: I do note one "glitch" with the 4240 which was not present prior to owning the Lumagen. Certain You Tube HDR videos, exclusively when content contains a substantial amount of black in the frame, intermittently/briefly lose video sync when played from the You Tube app with my ATV4K or UB820. However, this *NEVER* occurs when playing those same You Tube videos via the Roku Ultra. There has never been any loss of video sync with any BR (UHD or legacy) content or from my TiVO Bolt.

I'm currently unable to say whether this glitch is exclusively due to You Tube with the ATV4K/UB820 app & 4240 or my specific video chain, since I've never connected these sources directly to the 4240. A future weekend project?


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## SJHT

How are people dealing with audio/video sync when sending audio to your AVP and video to your projector? With my previous AVP, I would add 150ms delay for audio for 4K24. Now with a Trinnov, wondering if I should use the Pros delay capabilities or something. This is primarily for a Strato source. Thanks. SJ


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## OzHDHT

SJHT said:


> How are people dealing with audio/video sync when sending audio to your AVP and video to your projector? With my previous AVP, I would add 150ms delay for audio for 4K24. Now with a Trinnov, wondering if I should use the Pros delay capabilities or something. This is primarily for a Strato source. Thanks. SJ


Haven't had to use It for HTPC or 4K disc player For audio into the MX160 and video on the 4500. I can't say I've ever had access to a Strato though.


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## dinamigym

SJHT said:


> How are people dealing with audio/video sync when sending audio to your AVP and video to your projector? With my previous AVP, I would add 150ms delay for audio for 4K24. Now with a Trinnov, wondering if I should use the Pros delay capabilities or something. This is primarily for a Strato source. Thanks. SJ


I send video direct from Lumagen to projector and audio only to AVP/Trinnov. One of my sources is a Strato. I find I don't require any audio delay adjustment whatsoever.


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## audioguy

^^ While I never noticed any inconsistent lip sync issues prior to ripping all of my content (and also prior to my Lumagen), I do now. While everything is Source (Nvidia Shield/Plex) ----> Lumagen----->PJ AND Lumagen audio to Trinnov), I now get inconistent sync issues. Watched a movie yesterday that had zero sync issues but one the day prior with bad lip sync issues. And while the Trinnov allows sync adjustment per source, it sure does not per movie - though I could and do (occasionally) make adjustments on the fly.. So I get it as close as I can and just deal with it.


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## SJHT

audioguy said:


> ^^ While I never noticed any inconsistent lip sync issues prior to ripping all of my content (and also prior to my Lumagen), I do now. While everything is Source (Nvidia Shield/Plex) ----> Lumagen----->PJ AND Lumagen audio to Trinnov), I now get inconistent sync issues. Watched a movie yesterday that had zero sync issues but one the day prior with bad lip sync issues. And while the Trinnov allows sync adjustment per source, it sure does not per movie - though I could and do (occasionally) make adjustments on the fly.. So I get it as close as I can and just deal with it.


That’s what I’m noticing. Sometimes it seems correct doing nothing and other times off just a bit. Not too much to always have to correct. With my Oppo 205 it always seems locked in (vs Strato). But rarely use the 205. Where are you correcting the audio when you have to? There isn’t any control automation commands to change it. Jim told me he corrects via the Lumagen Pro and that the Trinnov is consistent. For TrueHD based signals he uses 48ms video delay in the Pro. The Pro video delay is 2 frames (16.7 mS for 60, and 42 mS for 24), plus if Genlock is off up to one more frame, plus about 4 ms. My 995 projector has a lag of 31ms at least per one review. The Lumagen theater has a 4500 or maybe another JVC. Not sure what that lag is. Thanks. SJ


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## mskreis

docrog said:


> Your experience does not mirror mine, where I have had *ZERO* issues (video deterioration/sync issues or audio dropouts/sync issues) running all video sources through my Yamaha RX-A3080 for switching and then to the Radiance Pro -> JVC NX7. It seems to be dependent on the capabilities/limitations of the AVR/pre-pro as to whether or not the video chain can be configured in a certain way. This has allowed me to utilize a single 18 gig input card (4240).




Same setup here but all running to a Marantz 7704 then to the Pro -> JVC RS 640. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

SJHT said:


> That’s what I’m noticing. Sometimes it seems correct doing nothing and other times off just a bit. Not too much to always have to correct. With my Oppo 205 it always seems locked in (vs Strato). But rarely use the 205. Where are you correcting the audio when you have to? There isn’t any control automation commands to change it. Jim told me he corrects via the Lumagen Pro and that the Trinnov is consistent. For TrueHD based signals he uses 48ms video delay in the Pro. The Pro video delay is 2 frames (16.7 mS for 60, and 42 mS for 24), plus if Genlock is off up to one more frame, plus about 4 ms. My 995 projector has a lag of 31ms at least per one review. The Lumagen theater has a 4500 or maybe another JVC. Not sure what that lag is. Thanks. SJ



I don't know my way around the Lumagen but I do the Trinnov, so I use it to adjust the sync. Go to the Processor Tab, then, on the left side select the Master tab. There is a spot to adjust the Master delay and then another that can be stored in a Preset.


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## DannyBoy73

docrog said:


> Your experience does not mirror mine, where I have had *ZERO* issues (video deterioration/sync issues or audio dropouts/sync issues) running all video sources through my Yamaha RX-A3080 for switching and then to the Radiance Pro -> JVC NX7. It seems to be dependent on the capabilities/limitations of the AVR/pre-pro as to whether or not the video chain can be configured in a certain way. This has allowed me to utilize a single 18 gig input card (4240).


I to do this with no issues at all.

Shield (and other devices) -> Anthem AVM60 -> Lumagen -> x790/x7900.

I really like having the Anthem's OSD so very happy with this config.


----------



## docrog

DannyBoy73 said:


> I to do this with no issues at all. Shield (and other devices) -> Anthem AVM60 -> Lumagen -> x790/x7900. I really like having the Anthem's OSD so very happy with this config.


With the inclusion of your post it's apparent that certain AVR/pre-pros from (at least) Anthem, Marantz and Yamaha have successfully been able to implement this video chain configuration, permitting the OSD/GUI to be utilized and requiring only a single video input card (as was the default configuration of the no longer available 4240). I'm sure that Jim Peterson (@jrp) appreciates being made aware of this fact, as he's previously indicated that the Radiance Pro has been the preferred switching device because of apparent increased sync stability (as well as minimizing video processing issues caused by including the AVR/pre-pro in the video chain) versus using the AVR/pre-pro as the video (and audio) switcher located before the Lumagen.


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## DannyBoy73

docrog said:


> With the inclusion of your post it's apparent that certain AVR/pre-pros from (at least) Anthem, Marantz and Yamaha have successfully been able to implement this video chain configuration, permitting the OSD/GUI to be utilized and requiring only a single video input card (as was the default configuration of the no longer available 4240). I'm sure that Jim Peterson (@jrp) appreciates being made aware of this fact, as he's previously indicated that the Radiance Pro has been the preferred switching device because of apparent increased sync stability (as well as minimizing video processing issues caused by including the AVR/pre-pro in the video chain) versus using the AVR/pre-pro as the video (and audio) switcher located before the Lumagen.


I think Jim Peterson (@jrp) made a comment a month or so ago stating that, the issues seen with AVR/pre-pro doing the switching is more of a historic thing and that later/more modern AVR/pre-pros don't tend to give issues anymore. That certainly seems to backup what people are seeing. I'll try and find the quote from Jim.


----------



## docrog

DannyBoy73 said:


> I think Jim Peterson (@jrp) made a comment a month or so ago stating that, the issues seen with AVR/pre-pro doing the switching is more of a historic thing and that later/more modern AVR/pre-pros don't tend to give issues anymore. That certainly seems to backup what people are seeing. I'll try and find the quote from Jim.


I'm aware of Jim's quote because it was in response to my query (prior to the arrival of my 4240) regarding whether or not my proposed configuration would detract from the optimal Lumagen experience. In any case, I'm pleased to read others' positive experiences with more current HDCP/HDMI devices & cables since it helps to grow the knowledge base.


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## dgkula

Prior to buying the Lumagen, I had two static curves for my RS620 and I switched them with an HDFury Integral2 automatically via RS232 using HDR metadata. This worked OK but was static and there is incorrect metadata out there so there is that ... the experience was OK but sub-optimal and sometimes required fiddling. However there are a set of shows on Netflix that are dark, dark, dark and I had to build a custom HDR profile on the JVC - basically a "burn out your retinas" mode so that the image was bright enough to passably watch in HDR. 

One of these shows was the Adventures of Sabrina which my wife and I watched together for two seasons. Well the new season is out and we watched the first episode last night. The DTM did a PERFECT job on that typically very dark show! Much better than my manual HDR setting as it adapted per scene and didnt blow everything bright out. This is basically why I bought the Lumagen - the DTM has really changed my HDR viewing experience period. Outstanding! I also watched Ad Astra in UHD blu ray this weekend - a great film if you havent yet seen it. Just wanted to share my continued enthusiasm. 

I was also having a few minor issues - intermittent dropouts but I have the right cables - and at Jim's suggestion did a factory reset and re-configured and have had zero issues since.


----------



## Kris Deering

DannyBoy73 said:


> I to do this with no issues at all.
> 
> Shield (and other devices) -> Anthem AVM60 -> Lumagen -> x790/x7900.
> 
> I really like having the Anthem's OSD so very happy with this config.


Interesting. I have a AVM60 as well and every time I've attempted to make this work with my setup it has been nothing but HDMI synch issues. Nowhere near as drama free as with the Lumagen doing the switching.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Interesting. I have a AVM60 as well and every time I've attempted to make this work with my setup it has been nothing but HDMI synch issues. Nowhere near as drama free as with the Lumagen doing the switching.


Maybe it's your cables??


----------



## Bobkbusch

Out of curiosity, what do most consider a decent HDMI sync time? I have my setup...source-->Marantz 8802a-->Lumagen-->projector to keep my AVR's OSD. My average sync time is about 7 seconds.


I have a very occasional instance of the sync taking longer and every great once in a while, the sync fails when starting a movie via Plex. In that case, I just select the movie again and it starts without issue...could be a hard drive sleep issue, but I'm not sure. Once I am synced, I don't have any issues.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Kris Deering said:


> Interesting. I have a AVM60 as well and every time I've attempted to make this work with my setup it has been nothing but HDMI synch issues. Nowhere near as drama free as with the Lumagen doing the switching.


I'd say 98% of my viewing is done via the Shield (not much input switching going on), so in terms of hdmi syncing, most of mine is with kodi/plex switching res/frame rate/hdr mode.

I use a ruipro hybrid hdmi cable from Lumagen to the JVC and also have a LG TV connected to the other Lumagen ouput, however the JVC and TV are never on at the same time.

I do have my Lumagen set to 9-bit output?


----------



## mindedc

Bobkbusch said:


> Out of curiosity, what do most consider a decent HDMI sync time? I have my setup...source-->Marantz 8802a-->Lumagen-->projector to keep my AVR's OSD. My average sync time is about 7 seconds.
> 
> 
> I have a very occasional instance of the sync taking longer and every great once in a while, the sync fails when starting a movie via Plex. In that case, I just select the movie again and it starts without issue...could be a hard drive sleep issue, but I'm not sure. Once I am synced, I don't have any issues.



When changing rates and resolution with my marantz and JVC RS540 it was approximately 14 seconds. Now it's more like 6-7 seconds with switching done by lumagen and same JVC. I leave resolution constant at 4k but the rate changes (24/30/60) as I can't handle judder...


----------



## docrog

mindedc said:


> When changing rates and resolution with my marantz and JVC RS540 it was approximately 14 seconds. Now it's more like 6-7 seconds with switching done by lumagen and same JVC. I leave resolution constant at 4k but the rate changes (24/30/60) as I can't handle judder...


If one's configuration is stable, I guess it basically boils down to whether or not slightly faster sync times during occasional source switching is more important than maintaining the AVR/pre-pro OSD and not having to make use of separate audio run(s) with the potential for lip sync issues.


----------



## OzHDHT

docrog said:


> If one's configuration is stable, I guess it basically boils down to whether or not slightly faster sync times during occasional source switching is more important than maintaining the AVR/pre-pro OSD and not having to make use of separate audio run(s) with the potential for lip sync issues.


This is very true. In my setup the dramas with the McIntosh MX160's HDMI passthrough trump any desire for OSD. My source switching is seamless via Harmony Ultimate. If I really have see what's happening for say surround mode or upmixing or adjust the voicing EQ curve, I open the MX160 network GUI on my phone and do it very easily.


----------



## mindedc

OzHDHT said:


> This is very true. In my setup the dramas with the McIntosh MX160's HDMI passthrough trump any desire for OSD. My source switching is seamless via Harmony Ultimate. If I really have see what's happening for say surround mode or upmixing or adjust the voicing EQ curve, I open the MX160 network GUI on my phone and do it very easily.


I very rarely go into the gui on my Marantz and can access all the settings via web browser or phone app so it's not a big deal. I have written a Control 4 driver that automatically grabs the room volume and mute state to display via the Lumagen which I will make public after two users on here finish beta testing.. it's a reasonable compromise... 

Now if only they could change that gawd awful teal background color... I can deal with monospace font, the colors drive me crazy.....


----------



## ccool96

mindedc said:


> I very rarely go into the gui on my Marantz and can access all the settings via web browser or phone app so it's not a big deal. I have written a Control 4 driver that automatically grabs the room volume and mute state to display via the Lumagen which I will make public after two users on here finish beta testing.. it's a reasonable compromise...
> 
> 
> 
> Now if only they could change that gawd awful teal background color... I can deal with monospace font, the colors drive me crazy.....




That sounds like a cool feature for the volume overlay with the Lumagen. 

Do you have or could you create a 2-way RS232 driver for the Lumagen, so that Control4 programming could be done based on the “auto aspect detection”. So when the Lumagen reports the aspect as “x” then Control4 could trigger the appropriate screen masking. 

In addition to being able to program based on the Lumagen reported screen aspect, programming based on HDR, SDR, Rec709, and Rec2020 would be awesome as well. 

I know the Lumagen can report all these settings but I don’t believe a 2 way Driver exist for Control4. I know quite a few people who would gladly pay for it. 


Thanks! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SJHT

Most good control systems can report most critical elements from an AVP GUI. Volume, source, processing, audio info, etc. all gathered and displayed on a remote. I guess whenever PIP/POP gets implemented you can also overlay GUI as needed. Worked well in previous Lumagen models. I personally don’t want to see volume control across my screen while adjusting or other AVP changes. Maybe others do want that. SJ


----------



## JustMike

SJHT said:


> Most good control systems can report most critical elements from an AVP GUI. Volume, source, processing, audio info, etc. all gathered and displayed on a remote. I guess whenever PIP/POP gets implemented you can also overlay GUI as needed. Worked well in previous Lumagen models. I personally don’t want to see volume control across my screen while adjusting or other AVP changes. Maybe others do want that. SJ


It is eternally baffling to me that Control4 has sold remote controls for years with lovely little OLED displays in them, but there’s no way that I know of to get volume feedback onto those displays, even when the system knows the room’s current volume and mute state.


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## ccool96

JustMike said:


> It is eternally baffling to me that Control4 has sold remote controls for years with lovely little OLED displays in them, but there’s no way that I know of to get volume feedback onto those displays, even when the system knows the room’s current volume and mute state.




That feature was just recently added to the new Control4 Neeo remote. The Neeo remote, shows the current volume level as it’s beings adjusted, directly on the remote’s touch screen. 

But I agree, idk why it wasn’t ever available on the previous SR series remotes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Roland Janus

*Input/Aspect change display timeout*

when changing the input or more relevant the aspect, that information is shown for about 8 seconds.
That's rather long for that kind of info, way to long IMO.
Can that timeout be shorted or even better, made customizable?


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## mindedc

ccool96 said:


> That sounds like a cool feature for the volume overlay with the Lumagen.
> 
> Do you have or could you create a 2-way RS232 driver for the Lumagen, so that Control4 programming could be done based on the “auto aspect detection”. So when the Lumagen reports the aspect as “x” then Control4 could trigger the appropriate screen masking.
> 
> In addition to being able to program based on the Lumagen reported screen aspect, programming based on HDR, SDR, Rec709, and Rec2020 would be awesome as well.
> 
> I know the Lumagen can report all these settings but I don’t believe a 2 way Driver exist for Control4. I know quite a few people who would gladly pay for it.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes, my driver is full two way. If you change the input on the remote it tells C4 the input has changed and any associated programming would change. It interprets all of the following fields and exposes them as variables. You can use the "on variable changed" feature to trigger programming based on any of the fields below. I also have all of the commands exposed so you can change memories, styles, or whatever based on programming. It also supports triggering mute message on/off and volume programatically if you have two displays in different rooms. I also have the provisions to write arbitrary messages to the display (I.E. Doorbell rang, security alarm went off etc...) but I haven't decided how to implement that on the C4 side yet (I.E. have say 5 pre-defined messages or have a variable you can update and it writes to the display).



Code:


Variable           	Value
-------------------	-------------------
OUTPUT_ADJUSTED_ASPECT	178
INPUT_3D_MODE  	2D Mode
NLS            	Normal
MEM            	A
INPUT_ASPECT   	235
INPUT_STATUS   	Active Video
OUTPUT_CMS_NUMBER	1
INPUT_CONFIG_NUMBE	0
OUTPUT_MODE    	P
INPUT_LOGICAL  	1
INPUT_RESOLUTION	2160
INPUT_DYNAMIC_RANGE	HDR
OUTPUT_ASPECT  	240
INPUT_MODE     	p
INPUT_PHYSICAL 	1
OUTPUT_STATUS  	000e
OUTPUT_RESOLUTION	2160
OUTPUT_STYLE_NUMBER	0
INPUT_RATE     	23
OUTPUT_RATE    	23
OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE	2D
OUTPUT_3D_MODE 	REC2020

If there is interest in buying the driver I can certainly be motivated to publish and support it.


----------



## audioguy

ccool96 said:


> That feature was just recently added to the new Control4 Neeo remote. The Neeo remote, shows the current volume level as it’s beings adjusted, directly on the remote’s touch screen.
> 
> But I agree, idk why it wasn’t ever available on the previous SR series remotes.



So where/how does C4 get the volume information to display on their new Neeo remote (I have a Trinnov)? I don't know what that remote costs but if getting the volume on it is not too complicated for the guys that do my C4 work, I would buy it today!! The only way I can see the volume now is using the VNC app on an iPad or my computer (pain in the rear).


----------



## ccool96

mindedc said:


> Yes, my driver is full two way. If you change the input on the remote it tells C4 the input has changed and any associated programming would change. It interprets all of the following fields and exposes them as variables. You can use the "on variable changed" feature to trigger programming based on any of the fields below. I also have all of the commands exposed so you can change memories, styles, or whatever based on programming. It also supports triggering mute message on/off and volume programatically if you have two displays in different rooms. I also have the provisions to write arbitrary messages to the display (I.E. Doorbell rang, security alarm went off etc...) but I haven't decided how to implement that on the C4 side yet (I.E. have say 5 pre-defined messages or have a variable you can update and it writes to the display).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Variable           Value
> 
> --------------------------------------
> 
> OUTPUT_ADJUSTED_ASPECT178
> 
> INPUT_3D_MODE  2D Mode
> 
> NLS            Normal
> 
> MEM            A
> 
> INPUT_ASPECT   235
> 
> INPUT_STATUS   Active Video
> 
> OUTPUT_CMS_NUMBER1
> 
> INPUT_CONFIG_NUMBE0
> 
> OUTPUT_MODE    P
> 
> INPUT_LOGICAL  1
> 
> INPUT_RESOLUTION2160
> 
> INPUT_DYNAMIC_RANGEHDR
> 
> OUTPUT_ASPECT  240
> 
> INPUT_MODE     p
> 
> INPUT_PHYSICAL 1
> 
> OUTPUT_STATUS  000e
> 
> OUTPUT_RESOLUTION2160
> 
> OUTPUT_STYLE_NUMBER0
> 
> INPUT_RATE     23
> 
> OUTPUT_RATE    23
> 
> OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE2D
> 
> OUTPUT_3D_MODE REC2020
> 
> 
> 
> If there is interest in buying the driver I can certainly be motivated to publish and support it.




That would be awesome. I would love to test your driver on my system. I am interested in two main things. 

I. Being able to trigger my 4way masking screen “presets” based on aspect ratio, when using the “auto aspect detection” on the Lumagen. 

2. Being able to switch “presets” on my Sony 5000ES based on if the input is HDR or SDR, to adjust laser output power. (The Sony will automatically do this when switching from HDR to SDR, but with the Lumagen, it always outputs in an SDR container, so being able to switch based on the input signal would be required. 

I’ll PM you. 

Thanks
Chris 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ccool96

audioguy said:


> So where/how does C4 get the volume information to display on their new Neeo remote (I have a Trinnov)? I don't know what that remote costs but if getting the volume on it is not too complicated for the guys that do my C4 work, I would buy it today!! The only way I can see the volume now is using the VNC app on an iPad or my computer (pain in the rear).




The Neeo remote retails for $600.00. 

The volume overlay works automatically with any receiver / preamp / amplifier that uses a 2way driver, like the Trinnov. 

Control4 just pushed this “volume overlay update”
to the remote last week and it works great. No programming required. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

ccool96 said:


> The Neeo remote retails for $600.00.
> 
> The volume overlay works automatically with any receiver / preamp / amplifier *that uses a 2way driver*, like the Trinnov.
> 
> Control4 just pushed this “volume overlay update”
> to the remote last week and it works great. No programming required.



Does that imply that the Trinnov must be C4 controlled via RS232 or will this work using IP?


----------



## ccool96

audioguy said:


> Does that imply that the Trinnov must be C4 controlled via RS232 or will this work using IP?




Works over IP. That’s how my SDP75 is controlled and that’s also how all the Yamaha AVRs in my other rooms are controlled as well. 

When the volume up / volume down is pressed on the remote, the slider overlays on top of the other touchscreen info. 

See picture below.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

ccool96 said:


> Works over IP. That’s how my SDP75 is controlled and that’s also how all the Yamaha AVRs in my other rooms are controlled as well.
> 
> When the volume up / volume down is pressed on the remote, the slider overlays on top of the other touchscreen info.
> 
> See picture below.



Excellent. Unfortunately, I think using this also means I would need to replace my C4 Controller to the latest model. Oh well - only $$.


----------



## SJHT

JustMike said:


> It is eternally baffling to me that Control4 has sold remote controls for years with lovely little OLED displays in them, but there’s no way that I know of to get volume feedback onto those displays, even when the system knows the room’s current volume and mute state.


That’s very surprising. It’s just basic two-way control supported by almost all manufacturers. SJ


----------



## JFR0317

audioguy said:


> Excellent. Unfortunately, I think using this also means I would need to replace my C4 Controller to the latest model. Oh well - only $$.


Which C4 controller are you currently using? The Neeo remote does require you to be on Control4 operating system OS 3.1.1, but that can be run with an HC800 controller as the primary controller as well as on the new EA series controllers. However, any HC250's or older controllers are not compatible, even when not used as the primary controller. Also, although the HC800 will run OS3.1.1, it cannot provide an onscreen display of the Control4 GUI.


----------



## audioguy

JFR0317 said:


> Which C4 controller are you currently using? The Neeo remote does require you to be on Control4 operating system OS 3.1.1, but that can be run with an HC800 controller as the primary controller as well as on the new EA series controllers. However, any HC250's or older controllers are not compatible, even when not used as the primary controller. *Also, although the HC800 will run OS3.1.1, it cannot provide an onscreen display of the Control4 GUI.*



I have the HC800. Not exactly sure what the bolded statement means? If it does not affect the ability of the remote to display volume, then I'm still OK with it.


----------



## JFR0317

audioguy said:


> I have the HC800. Not exactly sure what the bolded statement means? If it does not affect the ability of the remote to display volume, then I'm still OK with it.


With an HC800 running 3.1.1, the onscreen GUI display (what shows up on your TV or projector display when you push the red C4 button on your SR250 or SR260 remote control) is not output to your display. The Neeo shows the volume info just fine with an HC800 or any EA controller as primary.


----------



## ccool96

audioguy said:


> I have the HC800. Not exactly sure what the bolded statement means? If it does not affect the ability of the remote to display volume, then I'm still OK with it.




The bold just means the HC800 can’t put the Control4 3.0 GUI “on the TV screen”, like it could on the previous OS2.0 versions. 

The EA series can show the Control4 3.0 GUI on your TV screen. 

The volume overlay on the Neeo would work with an HC800 in conjunction with the Trinnov IP driver. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docrog

Yesterday's post from Nigel (@ARROW-AV) from ISE 2020 discussing the debut of madVR Envy which references the Radiance Pro. Post 1730

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/3053602-madvr-envy-anticipation-thread-29.html

"There has been very understandably a lot of comparison versus the Lumagen PRO and questioning regards which is better.

Well I am going to answer that question for you.

It's the MadVR Envy, pure and simple. And it's not even close. Seriously, as compared with the Lumagen PRO it's on a totally different level. Which I have to say I was somewhat expecting given the difference in raw processing power for starters, let alone @madshi genius programming and algorithms etc.

Don't get me wrong. The MadVR Envy does not make Lumagen PRO any less or worse of a product that it is; wherein it really is a fantastic product. It's simply that the MadVR Envy is way, way, better.

Personally, I consider the pricing to be absolutely worth it and suffice to say I ordered one immediately on the spot.

I very much look forward to spending some considerable handson time with the MadVR Envy ASAP.

Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at ISE 2020!!!" 

I look forward to @jrp responding to this challenge!


----------



## dinamigym

docrog said:


> Yesterday's post from Nigel (@ARROW-AV) from ISE 2020 discussing the debut of madVR Envy which references the Radiance Pro. Post 1730
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/3053602-madvr-envy-anticipation-thread-29.html
> 
> "There has been very understandably a lot of comparison versus the Lumagen PRO and questioning regards which is better.
> 
> Well I am going to answer that question for you.
> 
> It's the MadVR Envy, pure and simple. And it's not even close. Seriously, as compared with the Lumagen PRO it's on a totally different level. Which I have to say I was somewhat expecting given the difference in raw processing power for starters, let alone @madshi genius programming and algorithms etc.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. The MadVR Envy does not make Lumagen PRO any less or worse of a product that it is; wherein it really is a fantastic product. It's simply that the MadVR Envy is way, way, better.
> 
> Personally, I consider the pricing to be absolutely worth it and suffice to say I ordered one immediately on the spot.
> 
> I very much look forward to spending some considerable handson time with the MadVR Envy ASAP.
> 
> Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at ISE 2020!!!"
> 
> I look forward to @jrp responding to this challenge!


IMO...I'm just not sure how anyone can make such a grand statement unless they are comparing side by side with exact same equipment and content. Sounds like someone who has an invested interest in one product over the other? Especially since the product, the grand opinion is being made about, isn't even in the wild yet. In the end...everyone is entitled to make bold statements about anything and everything, and in this day and age, seems like its become the norm. Doesn't mean its true though. Those that want it to be true will be reinforced. I have no reason to feel one way or the other on it at this point. I would consider any and every product if it was a proven enhancement to this crazy hobby of ours. However, that hits me as a grand sales pitch at this point!


----------



## Mike Garrett

DannyBoy73 said:


> I'd say 98% of my viewing is done via the Shield (not much input switching going on), so in terms of hdmi syncing, most of mine is with kodi/plex switching res/frame rate/hdr mode.
> 
> I use a ruipro hybrid hdmi cable from Lumagen to the JVC and also have a LG TV connected to the other Lumagen ouput, however the JVC and TV are never on at the same time.
> 
> *I do have my Lumagen set to 9-bit output*?


Most likely, 9-bit output is why you are not seeing any problems.


----------



## docrog

dinamigym said:


> IMO...I'm just not sure how anyone can make such a grand statement unless they are comparing side by side with exact same equipment and content. Sounds like someone who has an invested interest in one product over the other? Especially since the product, the grand opinion is being made about, isn't even in the wild yet. In the end...everyone is entitled to make bold statements about anything and everything, and in this day and age, seems like its become the norm. Doesn't mean its true though. Those that want it to be true will be reinforced. I have no reason to feel one way or the other on it at this point. I would consider any and every product if it was a proven enhancement to this crazy hobby of ours. However, that hits me as a grand sales pitch at this point!


ARROW-AV is a well respected participant from the UK whose business & livelihood is HT. I highly doubt that he has any horse in this race (financially) and I'm almost certain that he either owns or has extensive working knowledge of the Radiance Pro. He has meticulously conducted shoot outs of multiple current projectors from various manufacturers and his assessments in state of the art technology have been extremely well received.


----------



## dinamigym

docrog said:


> ARROW-AV is a well respected participant from the UK whose business & livelihood is HT.  I highly doubt that he has any horse in this race (financially) and I'm almost certain that he either owns or has extensive working knowledge of the Radiance Pro. He has meticulously conducted shoot outs of multiple current projectors from various manufacturers and his assessments in state of the art technology have been extremely well received.



I understand all that and stand by my statement. I am fully aware he has seen both. Has nothing to do with his knowledge/respect in the business. I've been heavily involved in this stuff for 30 years myself. I personally don't blindly submit to anyones grand statements on products that relate to picture or sound quality based on sensory memory of one product vs the other. Again...those that want it to be true will be reinforced. I'm not even saying it may not prove to be true in time. Only that its way to early to be making a grand statement like that based on a simple viewing at ISE.


----------



## Karl Maga

@docrog, you've posted enough here that we know you are reasonable. Post #6815 will be perceived as provocative, and some push back should be expected.


----------



## dinamigym

Karl Maga said:


> @docrog, you've posted enough here that we know you are reasonable. Post #6815 will be perceived as provocative, and some push back should be expected.


My statement is, in no way, a knock on @docrog for posting. My opinion dealt strictly with the content that was shared.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mike Garrett said:


> Most likely, 9-bit output is why you are not seeing any problems.



I am sure he means 9GHz...not 9BIT...


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> ARROW-AV is a well respected participant from the UK whose business & livelihood is HT. I highly doubt that he has any horse in this race (financially) and I'm almost certain that he either owns or has extensive working knowledge of the Radiance Pro. He has meticulously conducted shoot outs of multiple current projectors from various manufacturers and his assessments in state of the art technology have been extremely well received.


Nigel gets really excited about stuff. Best to wait for a qualified side by side comparison. And yes - he will probably sell them. You already seem to have some buyers remorse with your Lumagen. So I'm not sure why you are posting this, as I can't imagine you are going to go down a $10K Envy rabbit hole too. 

Remember, Nigel did go from cold to hot with the RS4500. Time and multiple reviews has a way of ironing out the extreme highs and lows review wise, to find a more realistic assessment.


----------



## Eventidal

My question would be: 

Is the Envy considerably better than MadVR on a PC? Because I have not heard anyone saying that MadVR is by far superior to Lumagen´s DTM.


----------



## Killroy

Eventidal said:


> Because I have not heard anyone saying that MadVR is by far superior to Lumagen´s DTM.


Really? I have heard it many many times before...and have seen it first hand.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> Nigel gets really excited about stuff. Best to wait for a qualified side by side comparison. And yes - he will probably sell them. You already seem to have some buyers remorse with your Lumagen. So I'm not sure why you are posting this, as I can't imagine you are going to go down a $10K Envy rabbit hole too.


No, Craig, I'm not planning any further upgrades to my HT for the (long range) foreseeable future. I posted Nigel's effusive comments only as a heads up to those who have worked so diligently to put Lumagen at the forefront of external renderers. As I previously posted, the Radiance Pro did represent an uptick over standard calibration (thanks to LightSpace) and essentially plug-and-play adaptive DTM when compared with having to make the best JVC choice of 3 ADTMs. Buyer's remorse isn't a factor here (I could write a term paper on failed investment opportunities over the past 40 years), just the realization that, in my HT and for *my* requirements, the 4240 is not immediately apparent to be "a league above" how my system performed prior to adding the Lumagen.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> No, Craig, I'm not planning any further upgrades to my HT for the (long range) foreseeable future. I posted Nigel's effusive comments only as a heads up to those who have worked so diligently to put Lumagen at the forefront of external renderers. As I previously posted, the Radiance Pro did represent an uptick over standard calibration (thanks to LightSpace) and essentially plug-and-play adaptive DTM when compared with having to make the best JVC choice of 3 ADTMs. Buyer's remorse isn't a factor here (I could write a term paper on failed investment opportunities over the past 40 years), just the realization that, in my HT and for *my* requirements, the 4240 is not immediately apparent to be "a league above" how my system performed prior to adding the Lumagen.


That's cool. Everything has it's pluses and minuses. There are nice improvements to be had with a Lumagen. In home theater, in my opinion, "a league above" costs between $100K and $500K these days. At least strolling around Cedia it does. I'm happy with with my RS4500 / Lumagen and DCR lens. But like I said in the JVC thread, there are many more improvements to be gained with a Lumagen with a scope screen setup and an A lens. DTM is just one feature.


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> No, Craig, I'm not planning any further upgrades to my HT for the (long range) foreseeable future. I posted Nigel's effusive comments only as a heads up to those who have worked so diligently to put Lumagen at the forefront of external renderers. As I previously posted, the Radiance Pro did represent an uptick over standard calibration (thanks to LightSpace) and essentially plug-and-play adaptive DTM when compared with having to make the best JVC choice of 3 ADTMs. Buyer's remorse isn't a factor here (I could write a term paper on failed investment opportunities over the past 40 years), just the realization that, in my HT and for *my* requirements, the 4240 is not immediately apparent to be "a league above" how my system performed prior to adding the Lumagen.


Truth be told, my recently purchased/configured Radiance Pro 4242 gives me the same reaction that you are expressing. A scope screen/Paladin DCR combination would likely benefit more obviously, but a brightly lit 1080p sports broadcast does not appear much different to me. That being my primary use case, my perception is limited.


----------



## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> Truth be told, my recently purchased/configured Radiance Pro 4242 gives me the same reaction that you are expressing. A scope screen/Paladin DCR combination would likely benefit more obviously, but a brightly lit 1080p sports broadcast does not appear much different to me. That being my primary use case, my perception is limited.


In your case it might not make that much difference. It does for 4K / scope and DCR lens viewing for me, but you aren't using anywhere near the features I am.


----------



## Karl Maga

Karl Maga said:


> Truth be told, my recently purchased/configured Radiance Pro 4242 gives me the same reaction that you are expressing. A scope screen/Paladin DCR combination would likely benefit more obviously, but a brightly lit 1080p sports broadcast does not appear much different to me. That being my primary use case, my perception is limited.


*Correction, my cable source provides 1080i, not 1080p.


----------



## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> *Correction, my cable source provides 1080i, not 1080p.


What projector ? Just curious.


----------



## Karl Maga

Craig Peer said:


> What projector ? Just curious.


I have a JVC NX7 with a SI Black Diamond 1.4 120” 16:9 screen.


----------



## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> I have a JVC NX7 with a SI Black Diamond 1.4 120” 16:9 screen.


Unfortunately you can only do so much with 1080i - I assume it's sports on a cable feed ? While Tour de France and 1080p ( supposedly ) HDTV does look better to me with the Lumagen, there is only so much it can do. Same with DVD's. It can't do miracles.


----------



## Karl Maga

In spite of what I’ve said so far, I do very much enjoy what my 4242 does with 1080p, 4k SDR, and 4K HDR material. 

One feature I really appreciate is the per input video delay setting, it has given me the means to finally do something about egregious lip sync issues. Cable is a perfect example of why true competition benefits the consumer, meaning that cable’s de facto monopoly allows them to get away with delivering a deficient service. They’re the worst source I have even though they manage and provide the physical link to my home.


----------



## JustMike

SJHT said:


> That’s very surprising. It’s just basic two-way control supported by almost all manufacturers. SJ


Yeah, no kidding. The problem is that it’s Control4 that would have to support it — no way (so far as I know) for a driver developer to build that support.

Nice as the Neeo is, I have six of the SR-250s, and little interest in replacing them with a remote that does not have hard transport keys.


----------



## docrog

This quote comes from a P.M. which I received today from a longstanding AVS Forum participant:

"I have seen both side by side, imo MadVR is better in 2 areas, the DTM with the HSTM is an advancement over what Lumagen has been able to achieve. The other area, perhaps even more noticeable is how well MadVR is at scaling 1080P content to UHD. it's the only upscaler that uses neural networks and requires heavy amount of GPU processing that MadVR has at it's disposal." 

My question is whether or not it's true that the graphics processing power (GPU) of the Radiance Pro and absence of neural networking actually restrict the ability to optimally upscale 1080p content relative to MadVR or can comparable upscaling algorithms be created? Thanks to anyone who can contribute further information.


----------



## blake

docrog said:


> This quote comes from a P.M. which I received today from a longstanding AVS Forum participant:
> 
> 
> 
> "I have seen both side by side, imo MadVR is better in 2 areas, the DTM with the HSTM is an advancement over what Lumagen has been able to achieve. The other area, perhaps even more noticeable is how well MadVR is at scaling 1080P content to UHD. it's the only upscaler that uses neural networks and requires heavy amount of GPU processing that MadVR has at it's disposal."
> 
> 
> 
> My question is whether or not it's true that the graphics processing power (GPU) of the Radiance Pro and absence of neural networking actually restrict the ability to optimally upscale 1080p content relative to madVR. Thanks to anyone who can contribute further information.




I wonder where they saw both madVr and Lumagen side by side. I thought the only demonstration thus far was today at ISE 2020. Would really be interested to see a technical comparison of both with same source material and projector. 

The problem with the Envy is price. $10K MSRP is a huge ask for a video processor. This isn’t an HD vs 4K difference ! I wonder if the street price will be significantly lower , or if price will drop if initial uptake is slow ?


----------



## docrog

blake said:


> I wonder where they saw both madVr and Lumagen side by side. I thought the only demonstration thus far was today at ISE 2020. Would really be interested to see a technical comparison of both with same source material and projector.
> 
> The problem with the Envy is price. $10K MSRP is a huge ask for a video processor. This isn’t an HD vs 4K difference ! I wonder if the street price will be significantly lower , or if price will drop if initial uptake is slow ?


Computers built with the capability of running MadVR have been around for some time. That is what what was being compared to the Radiance Pro, not the Envy. Also, the Envy's entry level (base) model is reportedly fairly comparable in price to the 18 gig 4242. It's the Pro version that carries the higher price tag. I'm not certain what functional differences will distinguish the 2 Envy models.


----------



## Killroy

blake said:


> I wonder where they saw both madVr and Lumagen side by side. I thought the only demonstration thus far was today at ISE 2020. Would really be interested to see a technical comparison of both with same source material and projector.
> 
> The problem with the Envy is price. $10K MSRP is a huge ask for a video processor. This isn’t an HD vs 4K difference ! I wonder if the street price will be significantly lower , or if price will drop if initial uptake is slow ?


MadVR can be had with any PC. The Envy Pro will have a RTX 2080Ti which we know is the same as the PC version. Whether the actual results on the Envy are going to be the same as the PC version is still to be seen.

As far as the side-by-side, I had a borrowed Lumagen Pro (4224 I believe) installed on my RS3000 to test against my PC with a RTX 2070 and MadVR. The difference between the two were quite different and obvious. I will say that the upscaling on MadVR is just, in my opinion, mind blowing. The Lumagen did not stand a chance. Sorry. When it came to DTM, MadVR came ahead in several areas as far better 3D looking image and much better HDR look. I wanted to make sure I was not biased in what I saw and I asked the owner of the Lumagen if he was happy with the look of the image that the Lumagen was throwing before I tested the MadVR and he said that he liked the image on my RS3000 better than his NX7 (granted I have an A-lens, he does not). So after it was done he also commented that the MadVR threw a better image but we both agreed that the initial set up on the Lumagen is a lot easier than the MadVR PC (not sure how easy the Envy will be and I hope it's better than a W10 PC). I am always tinkering with my MadVR settings while he has not touched his, other than to update firmwares.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Gordon Fraser said:


> I am sure he means 9GHz...not 9BIT...


In my mind I was reading GHZ, but typed just what he typed.  Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Eventidal said:


> My question would be:
> 
> Is the Envy considerably better than MadVR on a PC? Because I have not heard anyone saying that MadVR is by far superior to Lumagen´s DTM.


Very astute statement right there. It was mentioned that as of right now, the HTPC version of MadVR can have the same performance as Envy. The advantage of Envy is the ability to use on all sources and a fully optimized HTPC already configured for MadVR.


----------



## audioguy

> in my HT and for *my* requirements, the 4240 is not immediately apparent to be "a league above" how my system performed prior to adding the Lumagen.



And this is where subjective opinions come into play. I could not disagree more with the above statement. My Lumagen takes dark and sometimes almost unwatchable scenes and makes them significantly better - and improves bright scenes even more. A completely different and greatly improved viewing experience. (And then throw in Auto Aspect control for good measure). I have no reason to not believe that the $10,000 Envy is potentially "better" than Lumagen. For that price difference I would most certainly hope so. But once descriptors are put in front of the word "better", I tune out. 

Fortunately, I am at a place with my video chain (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph) where making any improvements is just not under consideration. I have reached (actually, far surpassed) my "good enough" requirement.

That said, I actually do hope that the Envy is a bit better than the Lumagen. Competition is great for consumers.


----------



## Eventidal

Killroy said:


> Really? I have heard it many many times before...and have seen it first hand.


You have seen MadVR with Lumagen´s latest DTM release side by side? Can you share your thoughts?


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> And this is where subjective opinions come into play. I could not disagree more with the above statement. My Lumagen takes dark and sometimes almost unwatchable scenes and makes them significantly better - and improves bright scenes even more. A completely different and greatly improved viewing experience. (And then throw in Auto Aspect control for good measure). I have no reason to not believe that the $10,000 Envy is potentially "better" than Lumagen. For that price difference I would most certainly hope so. But once descriptors are put in front of the word "better", I tune out.
> 
> Fortunately, I am at a place with my video chain (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph) where making any improvements is just not under consideration. I have reached (actually, far surpassed) my "good enough" requirement.
> 
> That said, I actually do hope that the Envy is a bit better than the Lumagen. Competition is great for consumers.


I honestly don't understand why you have an issue with my prior post since I specifically indicated that my opinion was based on *my* HT configuration and requirements. Your primary disagreement with my statement is the DTM advantage that the Radiance Pro provides over static tone mapping. My signature shows that I own the NX7 which now has the adaptive DTM firmware update. You own the the RS4500 which does not include that feature and so, unless you've had the opportunity to evaluate JVC adaptive DTM, you won't personally have that frame of reference. In my subjective review which was posted yesterday on the appropriate forum for NX7 owners I concluded: "Bottom line is, without question, that I would purchase the Lumagen for any PJ without on-board adaptive DTM, but probably not JVCs with current firmware if the costs (present and future) would be considered to be onerous." I stand by my statement that, other than adding some DTM convenience and increased accuracy of calibration secondary to LightSpace, the 4240 hasn't dramatically changed my viewing experience in my HT, as I own a fixed 16 x 9 screen without the need for AR control or support for an anamorphic lens.


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> I honestly don't understand why you have an issue with my prior post since I specifically indicated that my opinion was based on *my* HT configuration and requirements. Your primary disagreement with my statement is the DTM advantage that the Radiance Pro provides over static tone mapping. My signature shows that I own the NX7 which now has the adaptive DTM firmware update. You own the the RS4500 which does not include that feature and so, unless you've had the opportunity to evaluate JVC adaptive DTM, you won't personally have that frame of reference. In my subjective review which was posted yesterday on the appropriate forum for NX7 owners I concluded: "Bottom line is, without question, that I would purchase the Lumagen for any PJ without on-board adaptive DTM, but probably not JVCs with current firmware if the costs (present and future) would be considered to be onerous." I stand by my statement that the 4240 hasn't dramatically changed my viewing experience in my HT, as I own a fixed 16 x 9 screen without the need for AR control or support for an anamorphic lens.



My bad. I did not catch that you have an NX7 with the new firmware. Given that, I understand your perception of minimal differences with the addition of a Lumagen.


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> My bad. I did not catch that you have an NX7 with the new firmware. Given that, I understand your perception of minimal differences with the addition of a Lumagen.


Thanks for that clarification! I have no doubt that the Lumagen has substantially improved your HT experience and I hope that, given the ongoing efforts of the Lumagen team, future Radiance Pro firmware updates will push the platform to even higher levels of performance.


----------



## Killroy

Eventidal said:


> You have seen MadVR with Lumagen´s latest DTM release side by side? Can you share your thoughts?


Yes, updated to the latest firmware as of last weekend and I shared my thoughts exactly four posts above yours.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> Thanks for that clarification! I have no doubt that the Lumagen has substantially improved your HT experience and I hope that, given the ongoing efforts of the Lumagen team, future Radiance Pro firmware updates will push the platform to even higher levels of performance.


I'm sure Jim and Pat are working on improvements as we speak. There has certainly been a steady stream of updates since I've had my Radiance Pro. 

Since my RS4500 doesn't even have the onboard DTM available, the Radiance Pro has been a big improvement for my theater ( plus the DCR lens / auto aspect ratio etc. ). It's transformed my RS4500. But, one needs to weight the cost / benefit of every piece of home theater gear. For me, the Lumagen has become indispensable !


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> For me, the Lumagen has become indispensable !



As it has for me as well. And very surprisingly, the benefits on bright scenes/movies is even more impressive than it is on dark scenes/movies. Watched Ford v Ferrari last night and the images (and audio and movie) were stunning. Probably the best video I have ever experienced in our theater.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Craig Peer said:


> For me, the Lumagen has become indispensable !


Speaking as a new owner (3 weeks now), I've just had a boys weekend with 2 mates as the wife is away and managed racked up 9 films, all 4K UDH HDR on my JVC x790/x7900 with a cinemascope 3m (9.8 ft) wide.

I have to say the picture was stunning and was truly amazed how all the films looked vibrant and appeared to have more depth to the picture.

Before the Lumagen, the odd film looked amazing, with most ok and some pretty bad (compared to the amazing ones). However, with the Lumagen all the films were amazing and gave a wow factor.

One very happy new owner!


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> As it has for me as well. And very surprisingly, the benefits on bright scenes/movies is even more impressive than it is on dark scenes/movies. Watched Ford v Ferrari last night and the images (and audio and movie) were stunning. Probably the best video I have ever experienced in our theater.


Some days home theater reminds me of wine collecting. Just as soon as you drop all of your disposable income on " the vintage of the century " / " best in 20 years ", next year the vintage is " best ever from here - don't miss this ". Since having the RS4500 / Lumagen / DCR lens, I take a " wait and see " attitude for every upgrade, since everything looks so good now. I have to - there's going to be another " vintage of the century " in Bordeaux coming soon that will eat my cash - I just know it.


----------



## Eventidal

Killroy said:


> Yes, updated to the latest firmware as of last weekend and I shared my thoughts exactly four posts above yours.


Thanks, I must have somehow missed it, sorry!


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> Some days home theater reminds me of wine collecting. Just as soon as you drop all of your disposable income on " the vintage of the century " / " best in 20 years ", next year the vintage is " best ever from here - don't miss this ". Since having the RS4500 / Lumagen / DCR lens, I take a " wait and see " attitude for every upgrade, since everything looks so good now. I have to - there's going to be another " vintage of the century " in Bordeaux coming soon that will eat my cash - I just know it.



In the case of audio, that has always been the case UNTIL I purchased a Trinnov and moved to a high speaker count system [and being tempted to go even higher]. That has not been so much the case with video. I loved my previous RS500 until HDR showed up. Then I only watched in SDR/WCG. But once I experienced what true HDR could do, I decided to take the plunge for my current video chain. I really do not see any thing that might entice me to change my video in the next 10 years (assuming I'm still around in 10 more years). I'm sure brightness will improve, as will resolution (about which I care ZERO), but I am well past satisfied with my video.


----------



## JOE-C

I agree with Craig- the 4500/Lumagen/DCR lens combo is outstanding and will probably keep me happy for the next 5 plus years ( maybe longer)
Every time I watch a new 4K Blu-ray movie of good quality I am amazed how good the picture is. I just watched the new Maleficent and was amazed how good it looked. Am looking forward to Ford v Ferrari.
I was a little reluctant at first to buy the Lumagen but now agree with others that it’s been a great purchase- incredible support and it continues to get better with updates.
I also agree with Audioguy- the Trinnov is an incredible piece of gear ( also continues to improve with firmware updates). It does for audio what the 4500/Lumagen does for video.
The support is also second to none from the company.
It may be the last processor I ever need to buy.
Of course having the video and audio both professionally calibrated gets the best out of all the equipment.


----------



## loggeo

Killroy said:


> Yes, updated to the latest firmware as of last weekend and I shared my thoughts exactly four posts above yours.


I have a lumagen pro and I also have a htpc with 2080ti graphic card. I have calibrated both using Lightspace.
Lumagen was calibrated to dci/p3 gamma 2.4 and madvr to dci/p3 gamma 2.2.
I spent an extensive time looking at Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping settings.
I would love it if any of the users that claim that there is a big (or any) difference between the 2 set ups point me to them.
Any particular scenes?
To me it is a bold statement to declare any of the 2 set ups superior if there is no proper comparison.
To do so, a user must know how to calibrate and tweak both set ups.
I can understand how an enthusiast can make this mistake. 

I just can't understand how a professional can...


----------



## audioguy

loggeo said:


> I have a lumagen pro and I also have a htpc with 2080ti graphic card. I have calibrated both using Lightspace.
> Lumagen was calibrated to dci/p3 gamma 2.4 and madvr to dci/p3 gamma 2.2.
> I spent an extensive time looking at Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping settings.
> I would love it if any of the users that claim that there is a big (or any) difference between the 2 set ups point me to them.
> Any particular scenes?
> To me it is a bold statement to declare any of the 2 set ups superior if there is no proper comparison.
> To do so, a user must know how to calibrate and tweak both set ups.
> I can understand how an enthusiast can make this mistake.
> 
> I just can't understand how a professional can...


Thank you. Spot on.

I will only believe one unit is better than the other when each is calibrated by the very best person possible. Let Lumagen pick their guy and Envy pick their guy. Then do a blind comparison so *no one* knows which of the two units they are viewing. Anything short of that kind of comparison is fraught with potential bias. 

I'm not dismissing the possibility that one might be better than the other but the super subjective comparisons that have been posted here are completely meaningless.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> I'm sure Jim and Pat are working on improvements as we speak. There has certainly been a steady stream of updates since I've had my Radiance Pro.
> 
> Since my RS4500 doesn't even have the onboard DTM available, the Radiance Pro has been a big improvement for my theater ( plus the DCR lens / auto aspect ratio etc. ). It's transformed my RS4500. But, one needs to weight the cost / benefit of every piece of home theater gear. For me, the Lumagen has become indispensable !


Craig,
I fully agree with you - I just love the picture the 4500 throws - the first time I A/B it at CEDIA (not the best venue to do that) with the VW5000 it beat 5000 easily.
After adding the DCR and the Lumagen (with Kris Deering calibration magic) and Sony Relaity Creation (which I like ) the picture of my combo is close but the 4500 picture is still better IMHO.
If JVC had a projector like 4500 that could do 5000 Lumens that would be my first choice for sure.
Enjoy your setup and keep us enlightened of the developments.
Ash


----------



## Killroy

loggeo said:


> I have a lumagen pro and I also have a htpc with 2080ti graphic card. I have calibrated both using Lightspace.
> Lumagen was calibrated to dci/p3 gamma 2.4 and madvr to dci/p3 gamma 2.2.
> I spent an extensive time looking at Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping settings.
> I would love it if any of the users that claim that there is a big (or any) difference between the 2 set ups point me to them.
> Any particular scenes?
> To me it is a bold statement to declare any of the 2 set ups superior if there is no proper comparison.
> To do so, a user must know how to calibrate and tweak both set ups.
> I can understand how an enthusiast can make this mistake.
> 
> I just can't understand how a professional can...


This is one of the reasons why people really hate to posts in this forum...(my buddy is one of them). If you can't attack the message then find a way to attack the messenger.

My RS3000 is properly calibrated as my buddies NX7. The German shootout was also properly calibrated, and from what everyone said about ISE 2020, those sets ups were properly calibrated.

In all three cases (and I will dismiss mine due to any personal equipment bias) there was a difference noted by pretty much everyone in attendance who expressed an opinion. My buddy who pretty much predicted that our findings were going to be dismissed, said that he was shocked. He loves his Lumagen and I also thought it looked awesome compared to the JVC DTM, which BTW, were were laughing at some scenes that just failed compared to both the Lumagen and MadVR. Again, sorry but JVCs DTM has a lot of work to catch up.

So before I bow I will list the scenes we tested. And we picked these for several reasons including the lack of HDR metadata to allow to see what DTM could do without any internal guidance.


The Last Jedi (first 19-20 minutes for the explosions and first view of red room)
Lucy several scenes including OR room close-up, opening mixed scenes, the back lit halo around Morgan Freeman' head, the final Lucy scene against the all white room.
Interstellar several space scenes and the black hole.
Ready Player One, the first leg race.
Mad Max Fury Road - storm and fireworks.
Passengers - First 10-minutes and various other scenes such as halo room and window scene.
Logan Lucky - various scenes that had cars for color saturations.
John Wick 3 - Ballet scene.
Atomic Blonde - neon club scene
Brightburn - counselor office and kitchen scene (we both agreed that Lumagen actually beat MadVR on this one without mercy).

But I am sure doubters will find faults with the scenes, the method of testing, and/or personal bias.

Anyhow... I'm out.


----------



## SJHT

I will believe it when Kris Deering posts on Envy/Lumagen comparison. He will also indicate the value proposition between the two devices as the Lumagen does additional things beyond DTM in terms of features and product support.... We watched Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald the other day. A dark movie that now just looks fantastic with the Pros current DTM. SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

Killroy said:


> This is one of the reasons why people really hate to posts in this forum...(my buddy is one of them). If you can't attack the message then find a way to attack the messenger.
> 
> My RS3000 is properly calibrated as my buddies NX7. The German shootout was also properly calibrated, and from what everyone said about ISE 2020, those sets ups were properly calibrated.
> 
> In all three cases (and I will dismiss mine due to any personal equipment bias) there was a difference noted by pretty much everyone in attendance who expressed an opinion. My buddy who pretty much predicted that our findings were going to be dismissed, said that he was shocked. He loves his Lumagen and I also thought it looked awesome compared to the JVC DTM, which BTW, were were laughing at some scenes that just failed compared to both the Lumagen and MadVR. Again, sorry but JVCs DTM has a lot of work to catch up.
> 
> So before I bow I will list the scenes we tested. And we picked these for several reasons including the lack of HDR metadata to allow to see what DTM could do without any internal guidance.
> 
> 
> The Last Jedi (first 19-20 minutes for the explosions and first view of red room)
> Lucy several scenes including OR room close-up, opening mixed scenes, the back lit halo around Morgan Freeman' head, the final Lucy scene against the all white room.
> Interstellar several space scenes and the black hole.
> Ready Player One, the first leg race.
> Mad Max Fury Road - storm and fireworks.
> Passengers - First 10-minutes and various other scenes such as halo room and window scene.
> Logan Lucky - various scenes that had cars for color saturations.
> John Wick 3 - Ballet scene.
> Atomic Blonde - neon club scene
> Brightburn - counselor office and kitchen scene (we both agreed that Lumagen actually beat MadVR on this one without mercy).
> 
> But I am sure doubters will find faults with the scenes, the method of testing, and/or personal bias.
> 
> Anyhow... I'm out.


I don't necessarily doubt you, but you are using ripped discs and a HTPC - something I'm not willing to do under any circumstances. I also agree we need a blind test with no one knowing which is which. Like an eye Dr. test ( does this look better, or this ? ). I know you are biased towards your ISCO lens vs the DCR - a totally blind test of those would be interesting too. 

Also, how loud is an Envy going to be? Lot's of questions. I'm sure it will be better in some areas - it better be, it's 2X the price of a Lumagen !

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing an Envy Pro at Cedia, if not before.


----------



## blake

Craig Peer said:


> I don't necessarily doubt you, but you are using ripped discs and a HTPC - something I'm not willing to do under any circumstances. I also agree we need a blind test with no one knowing which is which. Like an eye Dr. test ( does this look better, or this ? ). I know you are biased towards your ISCO lens vs the DCR - a totally blind test of those would be interesting too.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, how loud is an Envy going to be? Lot's of questions. I'm sure it will be better in some areas - it better be, it's 2X the price of a Lumagen !
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing an Envy Pro at Cedia, if not before.




The base Envy is the same price as the average Lumagen.


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> The base Envy is the same price as the average Lumagen.


But Arrow saw the Pro model I'm pretty sure. Don't know what compromises the base model has. Has to have some compromises, otherwise, why buy the Pro model ?


----------



## blake

Craig Peer said:


> But Arrow saw the Pro model I'm pretty sure. Don't know what compromises the base model has. Has to have some compromises, otherwise, why buy the Pro model ?




I didn’t realize he confirmed it was the Pro model at ISE. They (MadVR LLC) really need to explain the difference between base and pro. Even in their “pre order/interest” survey they ask questions about which version you are leaning towards and how strongly. ... yet I don’t think they even posted any differences anywhere other than price. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## loggeo

Killroy said:


> This is one of the reasons why people really hate to posts in this forum...(my buddy is one of them). If you can't attack the message then find a way to attack the messenger.
> 
> My RS3000 is properly calibrated as my buddies NX7. The German shootout was also properly calibrated, and from what everyone said about ISE 2020, those sets ups were properly calibrated.
> 
> In all three cases (and I will dismiss mine due to any personal equipment bias) there was a difference noted by pretty much everyone in attendance who expressed an opinion. My buddy who pretty much predicted that our findings were going to be dismissed, said that he was shocked. He loves his Lumagen and I also thought it looked awesome compared to the JVC DTM, which BTW, were were laughing at some scenes that just failed compared to both the Lumagen and MadVR. Again, sorry but JVCs DTM has a lot of work to catch up.
> 
> So before I bow I will list the scenes we tested. And we picked these for several reasons including the lack of HDR metadata to allow to see what DTM could do without any internal guidance.
> 
> 
> The Last Jedi (first 19-20 minutes for the explosions and first view of red room)
> Lucy several scenes including OR room close-up, opening mixed scenes, the back lit halo around Morgan Freeman' head, the final Lucy scene against the all white room.
> Interstellar several space scenes and the black hole.
> Ready Player One, the first leg race.
> Mad Max Fury Road - storm and fireworks.
> Passengers - First 10-minutes and various other scenes such as halo room and window scene.
> Logan Lucky - various scenes that had cars for color saturations.
> John Wick 3 - Ballet scene.
> Atomic Blonde - neon club scene
> Brightburn - counselor office and kitchen scene (we both agreed that Lumagen actually beat MadVR on this one without mercy).
> 
> But I am sure doubters will find faults with the scenes, the method of testing, and/or personal bias.
> 
> Anyhow... I'm out.



I am sorry you feel this way. It wasn't my intention to insult you and I wasn't trying to be ironic either. I am not keeping a track of your posts so I wouldn't know how you tested, how you calibrated, what dtm settings you picked etc. I actually still don't. My question about what scenes should I check was legit.
Thank you for providing the scenes above. Could I ask for timestamps please or perhaps pm me a link where I can read about the comparison?
I love my lumagen, but I also want to have the best possible image. Plus I already own a hi-end htpc and it took me hours to learn madvr and overcome set up problems. It is not easy.

So I think you have it all wrong when you say "This is one of the reasons why people really hate to posts in this forum...(my buddy is one of them). If you can't attack the message then find a way to attack the messenger.".
I have about 200 posts since 2011 in this forum, where would you get this idea?


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> I didn’t realize he confirmed it was the Pro model at ISE. They (MadVR LLC) really need to explain the difference between base and pro. Even in their “pre order/interest” survey they ask questions about which version you are leaning towards and how strongly. ... yet I don’t think they even posted any differences anywhere other than price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They had a prototype Pro at Cedia last year. Of course they are going to bring their A Game to start.


----------



## jh901

SJHT said:


> I will believe it when Kris Deering posts on Envy/Lumagen comparison. He will also indicate the value proposition between the two devices as the Lumagen does additional things beyond DTM in terms of features and product support.... We watched Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald the other day. A dark movie that now just looks fantastic with the Pros current DTM.


Deering's contributions to this forum and to front projection home theater in general are much appreciated. I doubt that he'd suggest ignoring the findings of others.





SJHT said:


> We watched Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald the other day. A dark movie that now just looks fantastic with the Pros current DTM. SJ


This is what everyone does. Logical fallacy. No one suggested that content won't look fantastic on your set-up or any other. I have merely Panny UB820/JVC RS600/ST 100 (black velvet room) and UHDs and many well encoded Blu-rays "look fantastic". Should I deploy your rationale for never upgrading?


----------



## woofer

@Killroy 

I have had a very similar outcome as to what you described with your Lumagen vs madVR observation ..

I run my Z1/RS4500 with a HTPC and madVR , a good friend runs a Lumagen ( he hates HTPC,s) with his Sony 5000ES. 

We recentley did some comparisons using the Lumagen , madVR and both projectors in various setups......results always favoured madVR. 

So your certainly not alone in your findings...


----------



## SJHT

jh901 said:


> Deering's contributions to this forum and to front projection home theater in general are much appreciated. I doubt that he'd suggest ignoring the findings of others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what everyone does. Logical fallacy. No one suggested that content won't look fantastic on your set-up or any other. I have merely Panny UB820/JVC RS600/ST 100 (black velvet room) and UHDs and many well encoded Blu-rays "look fantastic". Should I deploy your rationale for never upgrading?


I've upgraded plenty. My wife never thought I was logical.  I'm just looking for an expert like Kris to voice an opinion after seeing side-by-side. Kris has done my last two calibrations and just someone I know. He obviously has extensive experience with a Lumagen Pro including the capabilities beyond DTM (Lumagen Kaleidescape integration, source switching, etc.). He obviously would not ignore what others are finding in the industry. SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

jh901 said:


> Deering's contributions to this forum and to front projection home theater in general are much appreciated. I doubt that he'd suggest ignoring the findings of others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what everyone does. Logical fallacy. No one suggested that content won't look fantastic on your set-up or any other. *I have merely Panny UB820/JVC RS600/ST 100 (black velvet room) and UHDs and many well encoded Blu-rays "look fantastic". Should I deploy your rationale for never upgrading?*


You should start by replacing that RS600 with at least an RS3000 ( if not an RS4500 ). You're welcome. 


If there's one thing I'm good at, it's helping spend other people's money. In fact, I've built a career out of it.


----------



## Killroy

Craig Peer said:


> I don't necessarily doubt you, but you are using ripped discs and a HTPC - something I'm not willing to do under any circumstances. I also agree we need a blind test with no one knowing which is which. Like an eye Dr. test ( does this look better, or this ? ). I know you are biased towards your ISCO lens vs the DCR - a totally blind test of those would be interesting too.
> 
> Also, how loud is an Envy going to be? Lot's of questions. I'm sure it will be better in some areas - it better be, it's 2X the price of a Lumagen !
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing an Envy Pro at Cedia, if not before.


Funny you should mention ripped discs... we of course tested the Lumagen with my Oppo 203 and retail discs and I had totally forgotten how horrible disc menus can be. I had never set up my 203 for discs so my buddy got it set up right. We did test ripped discs on both HTPC (no MadVR DTM) and Nvidia Shield running through the Lumagen and when compared it to the retail disc (Oppo via Lumagen) and we really could not see any difference but we did not expect to. We also tested retail discs and ripped discs to the RS3000 via Oppo and Shield and let the JVC do the DTM and we were not impressed. Yes, much better than pre-3.01 firmware but no where near both Lumagen or MadVR. Explosions and fire is one major place where the JVC DTM lacks. 

As far as noise form the Envy, if most of us can easily do HTPCs that are absolutely silent then the Envy can be made the same. My HTPC has Noctua fans, a Corsair PSU (fans never ever spin), and the RTX2070 also never spins up the fans even with HSTM. I do have an active fan cooled CPU but I can easily swap it out if I could hear it from my sitting position. With 95% of the work being done via GPU, the CPU fan is always running in low speed.

To be honest, I am not biased towards my ISCO IIIL over the DCR. I think the DCR is a great piece of equipment. I am biased to the fact that I do not like leaving the lens in place for 16:9 content since using it that way requires throwing away ~20% of your actual resolution. I just can't do that. So if the DCR had a better option for motorized sled then I would be absolutely on board. Yes, you can add a sled but on some projectors, not my RS3000, that can't be done due to the lens having to be so close to the projector...so I've heard. Trust me, it would be SOOOOO much easier to leave my ISCO IIIL in place 100% of the time (no sled) if I did not have a type-a OCD about throwing out ~20% of my pretty pixels.

Now, a blind test of both the DCR vs IIIL and/or the Lumagen vs MadVR HTPC/Envy could only be done with two projectors at the exact same time. That would be a fun experiment that I would love to attend.


----------



## Craig Peer

Killroy said:


> Funny you should mention ripped discs... we of course tested the Lumagen with my Oppo 203 and retail discs and I had totally forgotten how horrible disc menus can be. I had never set up my 203 for discs so my buddy got it set up right. We did test ripped discs on both HTPC (no MadVR DTM) and Nvidia Shield running through the Lumagen and when compared it to the retail disc (Oppo via Lumagen) and we really could not see any difference but we did not expect to. We also tested retail discs and ripped discs to the RS3000 via Oppo and Shield and let the JVC do the DTM and we were not impressed. Yes, much better than pre-3.01 firmware but no where near both Lumagen or MadVR. Explosions and fire is one major place where the JVC DTM lacks.
> 
> As far as noise form the Envy, if most of us can easily do HTPCs that are absolutely silent then the Envy can be made the same. My HTPC has Noctua fans, a Corsair PSU (fans never ever spin), and the RTX2070 also never spins up the fans even with HSTM. I do have an active fan cooled CPU but I can easily swap it out if I could hear it from my sitting position. With 95% of the work being done via GPU, the CPU fan is always running in low speed.
> 
> To be honest, I am not biased towards my ISCO IIIL over the DCR. I think the DCR is a great piece of equipment. *I am biased to the fact that I do not like leaving the lens in place for 16:9 content since using it that way requires throwing away ~20% of your actual resolution. I just can't do that.* So if the DCR had a better option for motorized sled then I would be absolutely on board. Yes, you can add a sled but on some projectors, not my RS3000, that can't be done due to the lens having to be so close to the projector...so I've heard. Trust me, it would be SOOOOO much easier to leave my ISCO IIIL in place 100% of the time (no sled) if I did not have a type-a OCD about throwing out ~20% of my pretty pixels.
> 
> Now, a blind test of both the DCR vs IIIL and/or the Lumagen vs MadVR HTPC/Envy could only be done with two projectors at the exact same time. That would be a fun experiment that I would love to attend.


I'm with you there. Lucky for me, just removing the lens is about as much trouble for me as pulling a wine cork.


----------



## Killroy

Craig Peer said:


> I'm with you there. Lucky for me, just removing the lens is about as much trouble for me as pulling a wine cork.


I wish I could do that. At 150" screen I have to run high lamp and the fan noise bothered me too much. So much so that I had to build that monstrosity of a hush box.


----------



## dlinsley

loggeo said:


> Lumagen was calibrated to dci/p3 gamma 2.4 and madvr to dci/p3 gamma 2.2.


Is gamma potentially a major difference in these comparisons? Are tests apples to apples? 2.4 for Lumagen and 2.2 for MadVR seem to be the norm.

(Loggeo, I'm not picking on you here. Just using your post as a reference for how the two devices are usually set up)

I wish I had time to play. I bought PC bits in September, and a 2070 Super in November - basically all the same bits as Killroy it seems! - and built the PC in December to try out MadVR, but still no time to actually drag it down to the theater


----------



## Kris Deering

Thought I'd chime in as I've seen my name dropped in this a lot and this thread is turning into the Envy thread rather than the Radiance thread. 

I've said from the start that I'm extremely excited to see the Envy and that continues unabated. Madshi's reputation for scaling and tone mapping alone would make me want to see this ASAP. I did get a glimpse at CEDIA but not under ideal conditions, so I didn't make any judgements in quality given their limitations at the show. I did like their interface and some of the demos shown, but I will reserve final judgement for final product in a controlled environment on a calibrated display. 

I do have a few concerns about MadVR in general though. They are new to the market and have entered a market that is niche at best with a very expensive product. I wish them the best in their endeavor but worry about longevity of market simply because this is not a big market. I have also seen a lot of comments from them in the Envy thread that make me cautious because at times I don't feel like they understand the market they are diving into. There is no doubt that scaling and tone mapping are old hat by now for them, but comments about not understanding why per input memories/setups would be needed or plug and play operation without the need for a manual come off a bit naive when it comes to advanced video processors and the systems they are installed in. I setup Lumagen processors in the field all the time, and do remote setup for clients before they even arrive at their doorstep. Can you plug a source into a Lumagen and then to the display and get a usable picture, ABSOLUTELY! In fact, based on their description of plug and play, you are already there with a Lumagen in the general sense. Just turn DTM on and it is already setup for a 100 nit setup for the most part. But it is VERY rare that I see setups that are this simplified. Instead you have screens with varying aspect ratios, legacy equipment that needs work arounds, various calibrations for multiple zooms/screens/displays and more. The reason some say the Lumagen is a complex piece is because it is designed to solve complex problems and requires a lot of resources and options to do it. I haven't seen any of that discussed in the Envy thread, only scaling and tone mapping. I want to see how it performs with advanced setups that require a lot fo fine tuning for ease of use and best performance. They represent the vast majority of Radiance setups I do, so I would expect the same level of flexibility and problem solving out of a product at the same price and certainly at a price premium. 

The next concern is the single input design. I've seen way too many AVR/Pre-Pro's with HDMI issues to think this is going to be a good solution. Just looking at the high end market and all the HDMI issues I've seen with products like the Trinnov has me cringing. But hopefully it plays out okay. I think this can make overall operation a bit more tedious for those that need per input customization, but that tends to be a bit smaller of a group in my experience (though I still do it quite often, especially for those with legacy sources that need special EDID exceptions). A video processor for high end setups needs to be able to excel and not only the core video services (de-interlacing/scaling/tone mapping) but also at eliminating issues and creating a more user friendly viewing experience. With 99% of my Radiance clients, the only thing they have to do is turn them on and select an input and it resolves all the issues they had before. Until we start seeing people implementing Envy's into systems with varying degrees of issues that need workarounds, we won't know how they perform. 

At some point I hope to have the chance to do some controlled comparisons with the Envy, I'm as excited to see how it performs compared to the Radiance as anyone. If I get the chance I'd be happy to have MadVR/Lumagen participate if they'd like to, as well as others that may want to come see for themselves.


----------



## loggeo

dlinsley said:


> Is gamma potentially a major difference in these comparisons? Are tests apples to apples? 2.4 for Lumagen and 2.2 for MadVR seem to be the norm.
> 
> (Loggeo, I'm not picking on you here. Just using your post as a reference for how the two devices are usually set up)
> 
> I wish I had time to play. I bought PC bits in September, and a 2070 Super in November - basically all the same bits as Killroy it seems! - and built the PC in December to try out MadVR, but still no time to actually drag it down to the theater



What we want to compare is the dtm. For optimal results Lumagen suggests calibrating to gamma 2.4, madvr to gamma 2.2. Then they do their magic.


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## loggeo

Killroy said:


> To be honest, I am not biased towards my ISCO IIIL over the DCR. I think the DCR is a great piece of equipment. I am biased to the fact that I do not like leaving the lens in place for 16:9 content since using it that way requires throwing away ~20% of your actual resolution. I just can't do that. So if the DCR had a better option for motorized sled then I would be absolutely on board. Yes, you can add a sled but on some projectors, not my RS3000, that can't be done due to the lens having to be so close to the projector...so I've heard. Trust me, it would be SOOOOO much easier to leave my ISCO IIIL in place 100% of the time (no sled) if I did not have a type-a OCD about throwing out ~20% of my pretty pixels.
> 
> Now, a blind test of both the DCR vs IIIL and/or the Lumagen vs MadVR HTPC/Envy could only be done with two projectors at the exact same time. That would be a fun experiment that I would love to attend.


 I actually replaced my ISCO IIIL with a Paladin DCR. I even managed to keep the same (manual) custom slide. It works perfectly with my rs3000.


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## Killroy

loggeo said:


> I actually replaced my ISCO IIIL with a Paladin DCR. I even managed to keep the same (manual) custom slide. It works perfectly with my rs3000.


I would need an auto slider due to my hushbox, but that looks sweet! Do you keep your lens cap when not in use?


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## loggeo

Killroy said:


> I would need an auto slider due to my hushbox, but that looks sweet! Do you keep your lens cap when not in use?



Actually no. I just put it there for the picture.


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## dlinsley

loggeo said:


> What we want to compare is the dtm. For optimal results Lumagen suggests calibrating to gamma 2.4, madvr to gamma 2.2. Then they do their magic.


But isn't a brighter gamma going to make the "shadow recovery" look like magic, when it could just be due to gamma?


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## Roland Janus

*3D Full SBS and DCR lens*

How can 3D be properly handled when using Full SBS (3180x1080p) with a fixed DCR lens considering that input and output has to be 1080p for the projector (Sony 5000), resulting in a squeezed picture, black borders on the sides?


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## loggeo

dlinsley said:


> But isn't a brighter gamma going to make the "shadow recovery" look like magic, when it could just be due to gamma?



A gamma of 2.2 or 2.4 is just an initial suggested setting. It is not the final gamma you will be viewing content. What you need to measure is gamma after tone mapping. When you do so, you 'll realize that you are viewing a different gamma curve.


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## bobof

dlinsley said:


> But isn't a brighter gamma going to make the "shadow recovery" look like magic, when it could just be due to gamma?


It shouldn't if the display or 3DLUT calibration matches the expectation of either Lumagen or MadVR.

I understand on MadVR you have two options:
1) Tell it the display is already calibrated (and what gamma it is calibrated to) or
2) Provide a 3D LUT which has been output targeting gamma 2.2 (a bit of an arbitrary choice it seems but I'm sure there was some logic).

The Lumagen similarly expects either:
1) a display calibrated to 2.4 or PQ gamma or 
2) A 3D LUT which has been output targeting gamma 2.4 or PQ gamma.

In either case, what you're providing is a known calibrated baseline which the math generating the tonemap can target, knowing what levels will be output for a given output value when it comes to make the conversion from linear light. The map itself should be wholly dependent on the mapping algorithm in the respective products at that point.

Of course, if you mistakenly have the display or the 3DLUT misconfigured vs what is expected, or don't know what the configuration is of your display, then you may have unexpected results, and one or other box may look better than the other misconfigured unit. 

----

And I guess therein lies a bit of the rub of "plug and play" - while you can plug pretty much anything in and get a video image (usually), for it to actually have a chance of being what is intended you need to know at least what the display gamma is in the target mode on the display (assuming your display is already calibrated to track that gamma correctly), and to get the most out of it you really want to be using a 3DLUT. I think any good reseller of Lumagens could also give you a plug and play experience on that basis of the display having a known calibration.

I honestly believe anyone picking up one of these kinds of product without either the skill or will to learn calibration, or planning on using the services of a calibrator, is really missing out on a large part of what they can bring to a system.

Please note I'm certainly not saying anyone who's been doing their own comparisons here hasn't calibrated correctly. I read all such posts about quality comparisons with some interest, but it is currently of limited interest as the PC based madVR isn't useful to me in my system. I'm only really interested at the point there is a whole product as a package that can be compared with all the features I need to use.


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## Mike Garrett

We need to keep in mind there are two types of comparisons. One is head to head and the other would be each product compared to the actual studio master. While you could prefer product A over product B, product B could be closer to the studio master.


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> We need to keep in mind there are two types of comparisons. One is head to head and the other would be each product compared to the actual studio master. While you could prefer product A over product B, product B could be closer to the studio master.


Seems like an almost impossible comparison to make though. There isn't really "closer to studio master" by some objective measure.

You can't easily or obviously compare to watching a consumer HDR title on an OLED reference monitor - the reference viewing environment has bias light behind the screen, and fills a tiny portion of field of vision, plus the luminance ranges are miles apart for most projection setups. Any such comparison is going to be very much a matter of opinion as to which matches the feel the most... 

Comparison to the standard theatrical release would be OK for the P3 gamut but not much use for the dynamic range handling...

I guess the best comparison - if your goal is trying to match a theatrical "as director / colorist intended" experience - would be to compare the output of Lumagen and MadVR targeting 106 nits P3 to the theatrical Dolby Vision release. It seems likely that some titles will be closer on one solution, and others on another, just because of the variability of how the DV and consumer releases were put together and how the solutions react to that.

I think any way you look at it, opinion and preference is going to be unavoidable in such comparisons, and "closer to studio master" going to be really hard to define.


----------



## sjschaff

Kris Deering said:


> Thought I'd chime in as I've seen my name dropped in this a lot and this thread is turning into the Envy thread rather than the Radiance thread.
> 
> I've said from the start that I'm extremely excited to see the Envy and that continues unabated. Madshi's reputation for scaling and tone mapping alone would make me want to see this ASAP. I did get a glimpse at CEDIA but not under ideal conditions, so I didn't make any judgements in quality given their limitations at the show. I did like their interface and some of the demos shown, but I will reserve final judgement for final product in a controlled environment on a calibrated display.
> 
> I do have a few concerns about MadVR in general though. They are new to the market and have entered a market that is niche at best with a very expensive product. I wish them the best in their endeavor but worry about longevity of market simply because this is not a big market. I have also seen a lot of comments from them in the Envy thread that make me cautious because at times I don't feel like they understand the market they are diving into. There is no doubt that scaling and tone mapping are old hat by now for them, but comments about not understanding why per input memories/setups would be needed or plug and play operation without the need for a manual come off a bit naive when it comes to advanced video processors and the systems they are installed in. I setup Lumagen processors in the field all the time, and do remote setup for clients before they even arrive at their doorstep. Can you plug a source into a Lumagen and then to the display and get a usable picture, ABSOLUTELY! In fact, based on their description of plug and play, you are already there with a Lumagen in the general sense. Just turn DTM on and it is already setup for a 100 nit setup for the most part. But it is VERY rare that I see setups that are this simplified. Instead you have screens with varying aspect ratios, legacy equipment that needs work arounds, various calibrations for multiple zooms/screens/displays and more. The reason some say the Lumagen is a complex piece is because it is designed to solve complex problems and requires a lot of resources and options to do it. I haven't seen any of that discussed in the Envy thread, only scaling and tone mapping. I want to see how it performs with advanced setups that require a lot fo fine tuning for ease of use and best performance. They represent the vast majority of Radiance setups I do, so I would expect the same level of flexibility and problem solving out of a product at the same price and certainly at a price premium.
> 
> The next concern is the single input design. I've seen way too many AVR/Pre-Pro's with HDMI issues to think this is going to be a good solution. Just looking at the high end market and all the HDMI issues I've seen with products like the Trinnov has me cringing. But hopefully it plays out okay. I think this can make overall operation a bit more tedious for those that need per input customization, but that tends to be a bit smaller of a group in my experience (though I still do it quite often, especially for those with legacy sources that need special EDID exceptions). A video processor for high end setups needs to be able to excel and not only the core video services (de-interlacing/scaling/tone mapping) but also at eliminating issues and creating a more user friendly viewing experience. With 99% of my Radiance clients, the only thing they have to do is turn them on and select an input and it resolves all the issues they had before. Until we start seeing people implementing Envy's into systems with varying degrees of issues that need workarounds, we won't know how they perform.
> 
> At some point I hope to have the chance to do some controlled comparisons with the Envy, I'm as excited to see how it performs compared to the Radiance as anyone. If I get the chance I'd be happy to have MadVR/Lumagen participate if they'd like to, as well as others that may want to come see for themselves.



Agree that niche is the operative word, and add to that a moving target, as displays continue to try and implement what processors offer, so as to ensure a solid user experience. That has always been the case in technology -- first the appearance of separates with later integration into the base units. 



On the other hand, for calibrators like you, these represent platform/tools that get installed into customer environments which should offer up both flexibility and performance, as we know the Lumagen delivers, as well as an architecture capable of growing over time w/o the need to do frequent hardware updates/replacements (not speaking here of software/firmware updates). That means over architecting to allow for unexpected changes in sources/displays. Not a mean feat! I feel that, much like the auto industry, fewer and fewer of us are either capable or willing to expend the effort required to calibrate our own viewing environments -- can't recall the last time I wanted or could try and actually tune my car.


----------



## ShaharT

Not to turn this into a Lumagen vs. Madvr Enny, but I have to point out to this recent post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...envy-anticipation-thread-59.html#post59249132

The images are from Spears and Munsil UHD test video, taken at ISE Amsterdam a couple of days ago.

Any Lumagen owner has a copy of this UHD, and can check this test clip on his / her system, with Lumagen on/off? I know it's not much of a comparison this way, but the first set of horses screenshots is just mind-blowing. 

I'm a very very happy client of Lumagen (along with a Trinnov in a 7.3.14 speaker setup) and a Sony 995 with DCR lens on the video chain.
I keep saying that the Lumagen is the best purchase I've made along with my Trinnov. 

However... I'm seriously considering placing an order for the Envy Pro ultra model, installing it side-by-side in my rack, and running my own shoot out in my system. Just too curious not to see what it does in my system. Worth the price of admission for me.


----------



## fatherom

ShaharT said:


> Not to turn this into a Lumagen vs. Madvr Enny, but I have to point out to this recent post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...envy-anticipation-thread-59.html#post59249132
> 
> The images are from Spears and Munsil UHD test video, taken at ISE Amsterdam a couple of days ago.
> 
> Any Lumagen owner has a copy of this UHD, and can check this test clip on his / her system, with Lumagen on/off? I know it's not much of a comparison this way, but the first set of horses screenshots is just mind-blowing.
> 
> I'm a very very happy client of Lumagen (along with a Trinnov in a 7.3.14 speaker setup) and a Sony 995 with DCR lens on the video chain.
> I keep saying that the Lumagen is the best purchase I've made along with my Trinnov.
> 
> However... I'm seriously considering placing an order for the Envy Pro ultra model, installing it side-by-side in my rack, and running my own shoot out in my system. Just too curious not to see what it does in my system. Worth the price of admission for me.


I have a Sony 885ES, Lumagen with DTM, and Oppo 203. I just watched the horse clip on the Spears/Munsil disc and can safely say my picture looks pretty close to the MadVR horse pic, and doesn't look anything like the washed out horse pic. That being said, I am keeping up with the info about the Envy, to see what other people think of its performance, especially when compared to a Lumagen.


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Not to turn this into a Lumagen vs. Madvr Enny, but I have to point out to this recent post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...envy-anticipation-thread-59.html#post59249132
> 
> The images are from Spears and Munsil UHD test video, taken at ISE Amsterdam a couple of days ago.
> 
> Any Lumagen owner has a copy of this UHD, and can check this test clip on his / her system, with Lumagen on/off? I know it's not much of a comparison this way, but the first set of horses screenshots is just mind-blowing.
> 
> I'm a very very happy client of Lumagen (along with a Trinnov in a 7.3.14 speaker setup) and a Sony 995 with DCR lens on the video chain.
> I keep saying that the Lumagen is the best purchase I've made along with my Trinnov.
> 
> However... I'm seriously considering placing an order for the Envy Pro ultra model, installing it side-by-side in my rack, and running my own shoot out in my system. Just too curious not to see what it does in my system. Worth the price of admission for me.


At the risk of "biting"...

I hope it looks better than the photo in person and I* really *pity anyone watching something that looks as bad as the "before" version (but then, maybe I'm spoilt by the Lumagen  )... I'm not sure which bit you think is mind-blowing. On the Envy processed one, sure, there seems a fair bit of detail - maybe much more than expected in the grass around the bottom, and in the background there is a higher level of stand-out contrast to the detail than I believe the original footage has; but there also seems also to be a lot of off-hue pink posterisation in the sky / backdrop section which hopefully is a camera artefact (or maybe not, who knows). I'm not 100% sure I like what looks like it might be a darkening of the horses vs the original source (or again, trick of the camera) - and it seems to have lost some of the difference in colouring between the horses (again, perhaps camera).

I think in reality you can just give up on photos being very useful here for comparisons, I couldn't tell you if any of the above are photo issues vs real experience. Try and get to see it in the flesh. I would certainly think though that the MadVR rendition was miles better than the "before" image, who wouldn't! 

For what it is worth, this is MammothHD's stock footage page with the original. You can see the detail in the background is no-where near as prominent, and the different tone on the horses.
https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGallery/RED8G_03/Horse8/MHD_rCD8_vv2517.html
Personally I'm not sure if the level of detail recovery seemingly being employed here in this shot is desirable if it results in more detail than the original really portrayed being recovered; that would seem a retrograde step if accuracy is what is desired. When I watch that scene on my own setup the relative levels of detail and colouring look much more like the version of the original footage on the MammothHD site.

And I guess this is in part what @Mike Garrett was saying. If accuracy is your bag, think what was the original supposed to look like, before considering if you like a new version better.

In any case, I'm not wishing to detract from the offering; I'm certainly mildly envious (pun intended) of anyone who can have both of these in their system for comparison. If you do go for it, I'm sure you'll let us know what you think...


----------



## Kris Deering

I had Stacey Spears himself come over to evaluate the tone mapping of the Lumagen with his montage. He commented directly on the horse scene and the fence in the snow right before it saying that most tone mapping solutions made these scenes look too dark and that the Lumagen looked exactly how the original grade looked for balance and gamma. He particularly pointed out the fence beams, which look much too dark on most displays, even my C7 OLED.

As for comparisons, one of the prime testers for the Lumagen tone mapping is a studio grader who compares the Lumagen feeding a Dolby Cinema projector directly against a Pulsar running the original master and also the output grade master from Dolby to see how close it would get to what Dolby would do for that peak output. His opinion is the Lumagen gives a better result than the Dolby output most of the time and does a remarkable job of maintaining the intended look when compared directly to the Pulsar.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> At the risk of "biting"...
> 
> I hope it looks better than the photo in person and I* really *pity anyone watching something that looks as bad as the "before" version (but then, maybe I'm spoilt by the Lumagen  )... I'm not sure which bit you think is mind-blowing. On the Envy processed one, sure, there seems a fair bit of detail - maybe much more than expected in the grass around the bottom, and in the background there is a higher level of stand-out contrast to the detail than I believe the original footage has; but there also seems also to be a lot of off-hue pink posterisation in the sky / backdrop section which hopefully is a camera artefact (or maybe not, who knows). I'm not 100% sure I like what looks like it might be a darkening of the horses vs the original source (or again, trick of the camera) - and it seems to have lost some of the difference in colouring between the horses (again, perhaps camera).
> 
> I think in reality you can just give up on photos being very useful here for comparisons, I couldn't tell you if any of the above are photo issues vs real experience. Try and get to see it in the flesh. I would certainly think though that the MadVR rendition was miles better than the "before" image, who wouldn't!
> 
> For what it is worth, this is MammothHD's stock footage page with the original. You can see the detail in the background is no-where near as prominent, and the different tone on the horses.
> https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGallery/RED8G_03/Horse8/MHD_rCD8_vv2517.html
> Personally I'm not sure if the level of detail recovery seemingly being employed here in this shot is desirable if it results in more detail than the original really portrayed being recovered; that would seem a retrograde step if accuracy is what is desired. When I watch that scene on my own setup the relative levels of detail and colouring look much more like the version of the original footage on the MammothHD site.
> 
> And I guess this is in part what @Mike Garrett was saying. If accuracy is your bag, think what was the original supposed to look like, before considering if you like a new version better.
> 
> In any case, I'm not wishing to detract from the offering; I'm certainly mildly envious (pun intended) of anyone who can have both of these in their system for comparison. If you do go for it, I'm sure you'll let us know what you think...


I certainly have seen stock solutions that have a hard time with that clip, especially if the tone map is set wrong (Sony's require careful setup with their stock settings (HDR Contrast) on this clip, the new JVC FATM does better). MadVR showed me this clip at CEDIA on their flat panel and I had the same reaction as you did, over contrasted. The backgrounds and horses look too dark. I showed this clip to Stacey at my house after the show to get his thoughts and he said that he's seen this look too dark with other solutions too (and the fence posts before this) and the Lumagen nailed it. My output looks nearly identical to the Mammoth clip you link to.

I've said it many times before, tone mapping is not really intended to make your low nit display look like a HDR monitor. That would require some obvious gamma manipulation to exaggerate the differences. Tone mapping is intended as an on the fly grade to the peak level of the display. So if you have a 120 nit display you are tone mapping for, the tone map result should look more in line with a true 120 nit grade, rather than an emulation of a 1000 nit monitor. You can't compare directly to a SDR grade though (100 nits) as you have to be careful of the fact that they are different color gamuts and luminance levels within the grade. Even if both were 100 nits peak, the HDR grade can have a higher luminance level within that 100 nits for color because the HDR system allows for a higher peak level for any color. So for SDR I believe peak blue is limited to 7 nits, in HDR it is not. So you can have color luminance even within the normal SDR range of luminance that is higher with HDR playback. 

I think if you did direct comparisons between the Envy and Lumagen with tone mapping the end winner would simply fall to the one that consumers subjectively appreciated more. And there is nothing wrong with that when it comes to personal decisions. You're probably in a win/win situation anyways. If the tone mapping does tend to be overly aggressive in contrast enhancement, this can wear on me after awhile, similar to how Darbee processing (local contrast exaggeration) did. Hell, I find a lot of HDR to look overcooked on my OLED with content I watch. Lots of content from Amazon and Netflix look like they are trying too hard to give a HDR look with background lights or street lamps. I find it similar to 3D movies that tried to overemphasize 3D by always going for a gag to stick out the screen.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> I think if you did direct comparisons between the Envy and Lumagen with tone mapping the *end winner would simply fall to the one that consumers subjectively appreciated more*. And there is nothing wrong with that when it comes to personal decisions.


Given your previous comment from Stacey Spears: "the Lumagen looked *exactly* how the original grade looked for balance and gamma", how can another product be "better" since the Lumagen looks EXACTLY like the source? If, on the other hand, "better" = preference, then I get that, just as many consumers prefer some version of audio that is more colored than the original source.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Is there a possibility that the lumagen on some movies makes it get the "soap opera" effect?

At first it was just gemini man, but I thought that was because it was filmed at 120fps. But then terminator dark fate and then tom hanks beautiful day movie. Other movies look fine. These are watching 4k HEVC files from plex on the nvidia shield and letting the frame rate play at whatever the movie is at. What causes it? I thought it was the movie but no way these are shot like that. Does everyone just watch everything at 60fps? or when watching movies go to the 24?

Would the HDR tone mapping setting do this? I have it set at 1, but feels like 2 and 3 look different. but I might just be just me frustrated and can't figure things out.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I certainly have seen stock solutions that have a hard time with that clip, especially if the tone map is set wrong (Sony's require careful setup with their stock settings (HDR Contrast) on this clip, the new JVC FATM does better). MadVR showed me this clip at CEDIA on their flat panel and I had the same reaction as you did, over contrasted. The backgrounds and horses look too dark. I showed this clip to Stacey at my house after the show to get his thoughts and he said that he's seen this look too dark with other solutions too (and the fence posts before this) and the Lumagen nailed it. My output looks nearly identical to the Mammoth clip you link to.


I've only ever looked at that clip with the various incarnations of Lumagen DTM so it does sound like I've been spoilt  I did take a quick pic for my own benefit of my own setup outputting that scene via the Lumagen and compared the result to the MammothHD image, looks as far as I can tell very similar. Of course I wasn't any the wiser to know if that was the intention in the HDR grade on the Spears & Munsil disc, sounds like you've had that confirmed though.



Kris Deering said:


> I think if you did direct comparisons between the Envy and Lumagen with tone mapping the end winner would simply fall to the one that consumers subjectively appreciated more. And there is nothing wrong with that when it comes to personal decisions. You're probably in a win/win situation anyways. If the tone mapping does tend to be overly aggressive in contrast enhancement, this can wear on me after awhile, similar to how Darbee processing (local contrast exaggeration) did.


I'm sure Envy will be good, whether the things that it seems will be different are to liking will be to some extent a matter of subjective taste as you suggest. Things like highlight recovery sound like a good idea but it doesn't take much imagination to think of ways such algorithms can get it right, and also less than right. But at the same time I've been pretty sceptical of DTM scene detection in the past and these days it only infrequently disappoints me (still happens occasionally though!  ) So I remain open minded.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> Given your previous comment from Stacey Spears: "the Lumagen looked *exactly* how the original grade looked for balance and gamma", how can another product be "better" since the Lumagen looks EXACTLY like the source? If, on the other hand, "better" = preference, then I get that, just as many consumers prefer some version of audio that is more colored than the original source.


Because my whole statement was based on subjective opinion. There are PLENTY of video and audio setups that I visit or experience that I don't care for at all, but the end user absolutely loves it. Same can be said for a wide variety of "image enhancements" that some on these forums swear by. Since there is no hard fast standard for tone mapping, there is always going to be some "home seasoning" involved. I think a lot of the MadVR sauce is based on the exhaustive amount of testing and input they are receiving from their PC users in the thread in the projector section. Development and feedback like that is a fantastic knowledge base to draw from both from finding errors and fixing them to getting a sense of what a cross section of users like vs dislike. 

I've had a lot of hand in the development of Lumagen's tone mapping. I am not writing code or developing curves like Pat and Jim, but I've presented a lot of different approaches to the execution that I didn't see them approaching that opened different doors in a sense. This is especially the case since the first implementation of DPAD. It may look like a simple setting but its initial concept opened up a completely new approach to how the adaptive tone mapping is working. But depending on what you look for in an image or what you're sensitive to, you may find different settings and approaches work better for your subjective taste than others.


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> *3D Full SBS and DCR lens*
> 
> How can 3D be properly handled when using Full SBS (3180x1080p) with a fixed DCR lens considering that input and output has to be 1080p for the projector (Sony 5000), resulting in a squeezed picture, black borders on the sides?


anyone having a tip here?


----------



## docrog

Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available."


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## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available." /forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Lumagen has a number of improvements to their pipeline they are working on at the moment, so I wouldn’t be surprised if upscaling was part of it.


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## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen has a number of improvements to their pipeline they are working on at the moment, so I wouldn’t be surprised if upscaling was part of it.


Most excellent, Kris. I know that you always have your finger on Lumagen's pulse.........


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## dinamigym

docrog said:


> Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available."




The developers of the Envy seem like good guys and I absolutely wish them the best. Again, not minimizing anyones personal preference/opinion...The Envy unit is not in the wild yet and much is debatable at this point. At a 10k price tag for the pro version, I think the Envy needs to “trounce” at something for it to become a viable long term solution. Like someone pointed out, this is a very niche product and you are marketing to a very small group of enthusiasts. I know this...the Lumagen does things that are important to me (ie multi source video switching/calibration) that the Envy will not. I also know the guys at Lumagen have a long, long history and proven track record. I bought my first Lumagen in 2010 I believe. That is important to me when spending the $$ we are talking about. I hope we are still having this conversation a couple years from now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

dinamigym said:


> The developers of the Envy seem like good guys and I absolutely wish them the best. Again, not minimizing anyones personal preference/opinion...The Envy unit is not in the wild yet and much is debatable at this point. At a 10k price tag for the pro version, I think the Envy needs to “trounce” at something for it to become a viable long term solution. Like someone pointed out, this is a very niche product and you are marketing to a very small group of enthusiasts. I know this...the Lumagen does things that are important to me (ie multi source video switching/calibration) that the Envy will not. I also know the guys at Lumagen have a long, long history and proven track record. I bought my first Lumagen in 2010 I believe. That is important to me when spending the $$ we are talking about. I hope we are still having this conversation a couple years from now.


Agree. I've owned every other 3DLUT capable processor (minimum requirement for me) from recent years and they've all been steaming piles of... from a product and support point of view. The only two consumer devices in recent history were basically half finished abandonware by their manufacturers (the Eecolor and the Prisma). I've really got a lot of respect for the guys at Lumagen for having carved out and really delivered consistent quality product that the niche wanted in their Radiance Pro lineup, along with great support.


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## docrog

dinamigym said:


> The developers of the Envy seem like good guys and I absolutely wish them the best. Again, not minimizing anyones personal preference/opinion...The Envy unit is not in the wild yet and much is debatable at this point. At a 10k price tag for the pro version, I think the Envy needs to “trounce” at something for it to become a viable long term solution. Like someone pointed out, this is a very niche product and you are marketing to a very small group of enthusiasts. I know this...the Lumagen does things that are important to me (ie multi source video switching/calibration) that the Envy will not. I also know the guys at Lumagen have a long, long history and proven track record. I bought my first Lumagen in 2010 I believe. That is important to me when spending the $$ we are talking about. I hope we are still having this conversation a couple years from now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually, the quotes were related to upscaling in the PC MadVR version versus Lumagen, not the Envy. Again, for the record, I own a 4240 and have ZERO interest in additionally purchasing the Envy. I was very glad to read Kris Deering's earlier recent post in which he mentioned that he believed that further enhancement of upscaling was a feature under consideration for a future Lumagen firmware update. Lumagen's years long commitment to constant improvement is absolutely not in question. I would anticipate that they take the entry of MadVR Envy very seriously and will continue to push the envelope to remain *the* relevant force in our niche market.


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## dinamigym

docrog said:


> Actually, the quotes were related to upscaling in the PC MadVR version versus Lumagen, not the Envy. Again, for the record, I own a 4240 and have ZERO interest in additionally purchasing the Envy. I was very glad to read Kris Deering's earlier recent post in which he mentioned that he believed that further enhancement of upscaling was a feature under consideration for a future Lumagen firmware update. Lumagen's years long commitment to constant improvement is absolutely not in question. I would anticipate that they take the entry of MadVR Envy very seriously and will continue to push the envelope to remain *the* relevant force in our niche market.


Yep, I realize the OP was referring to the PC version. However, he posted it in the Envy thread so I believe the inference to have been that any performance in the PC version will automatically translate to the Envy. I believe it also to be true that for those of us who own Lumagens, the plug and play Envy is the direct interest. Not the PC version which has been in the wild for sometime and if a PC based application was of consideration most would already have made a decision to implement one way or another. I would also add that I'm not saying that someone may come to my theater and say your image sucks. In all honesty, until I start selling tickets to the public to sit in my theater I'm not sure I care. I suspect, at this stage of the game, most of us like what we like until something demonstartes otherwise; proven in real world situations over time. I have no doubt all hardware developers of niche products have considered already, however I think we can all agree that selling a $10k enhancement piece to the public when the majority of the devices you are enhancing sell for less than that (ie most of the Sony and JVC lineup) is a very hard proposition.


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## docrog

Those of us, old enough to remember, were thrilled when LaserDiscs improved on the resolution of VHS tapes and then when DVD (480i) again upped the ante. I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of those following this forum have UHD Blu-Ray players and/or UHD streaming devices, irrespective of whether or not their display is native 4K or e-shifter. So, there's nothing abnormal about wanting to be able to display optimally upscaled 1080p content because, for the foreseeable future, HD Blu-Ray discs and non-UHD cable/streaming content will continue to play a significant role in many of our daily viewing habits. Anyone reading my posts quoting long time posters on other forums, but my not praising any MadVR product (since I've never seen one), will realize my hope is that any inducement for Lumagen to achieve that optimal upscaling renderer algorithm will be a most welcome enhancement to my Radiance Pro.


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## fatherom

docrog said:


> Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available."



Please don't fall into the trap of attacking something new just because we don't have all the information yet. Let's keep it peaceful and keep the conversation open between the lumagen crowd and the envy crowd. 

I love my lumagen and don't want to spend another $5-$10k certainly on another processor, but I'm keeping an open mind. I just want unbiased comparisons, as best as possible. 

I'm actually on certain sites where madvr for the pc has been discussed for years. The upscaling is constantly touted as truly amazing. So I believe it may be better than the lumagen in that regard. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aeneas01

@Kris Deering - using a windows 10 htpc + video player (potplayer, mpc, etc.) is there a way to send hdr metadata to the pro without enabling hdr in windows? without the pro in the chain, i've had some nice results using madvr tone map my 4k hdr riips with windows hdr disabled, i'd like to use the pro in the same manner if i can, thanks!


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## docrog

fatherom said:


> Please don't fall into the trap of attacking something new just because we don't have all the information yet. Let's keep it peaceful and keep the conversation open between the lumagen crowd and the envy crowd.


I'm a bit confused as to why you quoted me here. I certainly have never attacked anyone regarding their posts regarding the Radiance Pro or any MadVR application on this or any other AVS forum. I have only shared opinions from postings on other forums when they relate to the Radiance Pro.


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## fatherom

docrog said:


> I'm a bit confused as to why you quoted me here. I certainly have never attacked anyone regarding their posts regarding the Radiance Pro or any MadVR application on this or any other AVS forum.



You said "they're at it again" and you used the "rollseyes" icon when referring to their quotes praising the envys upscaling.

I'm not feeling threatened by another product doing upscaling better than the lumagen. I hope there are lots of comparisons between the two products in the coming months. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

fatherom said:


> You said "they're at it again" and you used the "rollseyes" icon when referring to their quotes praising the envys upscaling.


I would never had thought that a "rolled eyes" emoji could be interpreted as an attack. I'll go back to that post and remove the emoji, just to make sure that no one else takes offense..........


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## fatherom

docrog said:


> I would never had thought that a "rolled eyes" emoji could be interpreted as an attack. I'll go back to that post and remove the emoji, just to be sure that no one else takes offense..........



I never said you attacked someone. I said let's not attack something new. The envy just came out as fairly direct competition to what the lumagen does. There's no need to say things like "they're at it again" as if what they're saying is unreasonable. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

fatherom said:


> I never said you attacked someone. I said let's not attack something new. The envy just came out as fairly direct competition to what the lumagen does. There's no need to say things like "they're at it again" as if what they're saying is unreasonable.


If you had carefully read my original post, I wrote: "Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy", so how/why you would morph that into my suggesting that "what they're saying is unreasonable" is a bit odd. "They're at it again" only meant that, once again, the topic had come up on another forum which sought to codify the superiority of MadVR rendering over Lumagen. That was the entire intent of my post.


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## audioguy

Let me assume that the Envy betters the Lumagen in every possible category. 

I've been at this A/V stuff a VERY long time. And in that time, I can't even remember how many A/V "better mouse traps" I bought that were indeed great pieces of technology only to have them either vaporize in a very short period of time OR provide horrific customer support. In fact, I worked for one such company. 

So for me to consider such a product (again, assuming it betters the Lumagen) at even the same price of the Lumagen would not happen for YEARS. Envy needs to have a full support/customer service staff, provide timely updates, prepare appropriate documentation, setup and manage a dealer network, provide training to those who will be doing integration and calibration, and the list goes on. AND they need to demonstrate that over a long period of time. 

I really do hope they can pull this off in this tiny, tiny niche market. We, the consumers will be the real winners.


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## aeneas01

audioguy said:


> Let me assume that the Envy betters the Lumagen in every possible category.
> 
> I've been at this A/V stuff a VERY long time. And in that time, I can't even remember how many A/V "better mouse traps" I bought that were indeed great pieces of technology only to have them either vaporize in a very short period of time OR provide horrific customer support. In fact, I worked for one such company.
> 
> So for me to consider such a product (again, assuming it betters the Lumagen) at even the same price of the Lumagen would not happen for YEARS. Envy needs to have a full support/customer service staff, provide timely updates, prepare appropriate documentation, setup and manage a dealer network, provide training to those who will be doing integration and calibration, and the list goes on. AND they need to demonstrate that over a long period of time.
> 
> I really do hope they can pull this off in this tiny, tiny niche market. We, the consumers will be the real winners.



of course support for the envy could be handled through av forums, much like the tremendous and ongoing support the folks at hd fury have provided for their vertex (and other products), in fact if nothing else madashi has proven to be prolific and omnipresent in terms of supporting his work, he can be found in every corner of the web that deals in av discussions.

but, yeah, in terms of service, history, product quality, state of the art technology and support, jim and the folks at lumagen have indeed set a very high bar, their stellar reputation is very well deserved.


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## blake

docrog said:


> Actually, the quotes were related to upscaling in the PC MadVR version versus Lumagen, not the Envy. Again, for the record, I own a 4240 and have ZERO interest in additionally purchasing the Envy. I was very glad to read Kris Deering's earlier recent post in which he mentioned that he believed that further enhancement of upscaling was a feature under consideration for a future Lumagen firmware update. Lumagen's years long commitment to constant improvement is absolutely not in question. I would anticipate that they take the entry of MadVR Envy very seriously and will continue to push the envelope to remain *the* relevant force in our niche market.




The problem is , it is very likely most significant enhancements in Lumagen video processing going forward will require a completely new hardware release. And who knows when that will be! The Envy demonstrates how computationally intense video processing has become (ie Nvidia 2080ti!) to maximize performance. I don’t think the Lumagen has anything near a 2080ti in them in terms of GPU compute.


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## riddle

Unfortunately this cannot be compared. Everything has some power and with his optimization he can surprise you. The potential of MadVR Envy is not in GPU RTX 2080 TI, which can be very low performance hw compare to possibility of using neural network technology (probably only in PRO version). I tested Lumagen Radiance PRO vs MadVR PC RTX 2080 and I didn't find much bigger differences if the signal source was 4K content (PC Windos10/OPPO 203). A few friends who were with me on this test, no one could determine what MadVR was and what Lumagen was. Somewhere it was better this and somewhere it was this. I am very curious to compare Lumagen radiance PRO with MadVR ENVY. But withno seting for Lumagen Radiance PRO from Kris Deering, the difference might be little greater. So that the correct setting and optimization really helps.


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## docrog

blake said:


> The problem is, it is very likely most significant enhancements in Lumagen video processing going forward will require a completely new hardware release. And who knows when that will be! The Envy demonstrates how computationally intense video processing has become (ie Nvidia 2080ti!) to maximize performance. I don’t think the Lumagen has anything near a 2080ti in them in terms of GPU compute.


The following quote is from a P.M. conversation that I'd recently had with a respected member of our AVS Forum community who wrote: "The Envy relies on a GPU that currently costs north of $1.000 in the high-end. The Lumagen uses an FPGA, which as I understand it, lets you program a dedicated for purpose set of instructions like a virtual circuit-board, so it is ultra-efficient and lean, and just doesn't need anything like the processing power of a GPU.I believe the motherboard in the Lumagen including the FPGA is also well north of a $1,000. But it's near impossible to compare like-for-like, because they are just completely different approaches to the same problem."

So, if that poster is correct, it may still be possible to obtain additional processing performance from Lumagen's existing architecture via programming changes, as was recently experienced with October's firmware update with frame adaptive DTM. As I believe we've all agreed here, Lumagen will continue its commitment to move its excellent existing product forward in order to best meet the expectations of its growing customer base.


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## Kris Deering

aeneas01 said:


> @Kris Deering - using a windows 10 htpc + video player (potplayer, mpc, etc.) is there a way to send hdr metadata to the pro without enabling hdr in windows? without the pro in the chain, i've had some nice results using madvr tone map my 4k hdr riips with windows hdr disabled, i'd like to use the pro in the same manner if i can, thanks!


I haven't experimented with this, I would just shoot an email to Lumagen support and ask how to make that work. 



aeneas01 said:


> of course support for the envy could be handled through av forums, much like the tremendous and ongoing support the folks at hd fury have provided for their vertex (and other products), in fact if nothing else madashi has proven to be prolific and omnipresent in terms of supporting his work, he can be found in every corner of the web that deals in av discussions.
> 
> but, yeah, in terms of service, history, product quality, state of the art technology and support, jim and the folks at lumagen have indeed set a very high bar, their stellar reputation is very well deserved.


Madshi has been amazing in his support of MadVR, of that there is no doubt. But there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference between supporting a software program and a piece of hardware like the Envy. I've worked with MULTIPLE vendors that have done video processing and the overwhelming feedback I get from them is the nightmare that is supporting HDMI hardware. And until you get a well trained dealer network to start supporting the product, it is all on you as a company to answer/fix/troubleshoot/reproduce every little issue brought up. 



blake said:


> The problem is , it is very likely most significant enhancements in Lumagen video processing going forward will require a completely new hardware release. And who knows when that will be! The Envy demonstrates how computationally intense video processing has become (ie Nvidia 2080ti!) to maximize performance. I don’t think the Lumagen has anything near a 2080ti in them in terms of GPU compute.


I find it interesting how many people seem to know exactly how much processing power the Lumagen does or doesn't have or what it can and can't do when it comes to future processing or features. This just screams misinformation to me. Does the Lumagen have a finite amount of processing power? Absolutely, every product does. But making blanket statements that it can no longer advance as a processor without a hardware update is completely baseless unless you are getting this from Lumagen directly (which I know you are not). I've already stated that I KNOW that Lumagen is working on new features and improvements to the current design and there is definitely room for more. Is the Lumagen going to match the Envy feature for feature? Probably not, but the same can already be said about the Envy. At this point I think we as consumers are lucky that we are even getting another product in this category, and I welcome anything the Envy brings to the table performance wise. But spreading falsehoods about what the Lumagen can or can't do is just spreading misinformation. Why don't we just let the merits of the performance of the two products speak for themselves when the Envy hits the market. Ultimately that is what matters the most, finding the product that fits your budget and provides the video processing solutions that you need to make the most out of your system.


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## blake

Kris Deering said:


> I haven't experimented with this, I would just shoot an email to Lumagen support and ask how to make that work.
> 
> I find it interesting how many people seem to know exactly how much processing power the Lumagen does or doesn't have or what it can and can't do when it comes to future processing or features. This just screams misinformation to me. Does the Lumagen have a finite amount of processing power? Absolutely, every product does. But making blanket statements that it can no longer advance as a processor without a hardware update is completely baseless unless you are getting this from Lumagen directly (which I know you are not). I've already stated that I KNOW that Lumagen is working on new features and improvements to the current design and there is definitely room for more. Is the Lumagen going to match the Envy feature for feature? Probably not, but the same can already be said about the Envy. At this point I think we as consumers are lucky that we are even getting another product in this category, and I welcome anything the Envy brings to the table performance wise. But spreading falsehoods about what the Lumagen can or can't do is just spreading misinformation. Why don't we just let the merits of the performance of the two products speak for themselves when the Envy hits the market. Ultimately that is what matters the most, finding the product that fits your budget and provides the video processing solutions that you need to make the most out of your system.


Fair point. I guess this was an assumption based on the fact the Radiance Pro was created with graphics technology circa 2016, and the Envy has a bleeding edge Nvidia 2080ti as its GPU. Glad to hear Lumagen performance can be further enhanced with a software update! 

I am having a tough time deciding on Envy vs Radiance Pro to pair with my JVC RS4500 which will arrive in a month. I am concerned about the Envy's potential lack of configurability as you pointed out (plug and play" may be a detriment to a complex setup with multiple sources). Probably best that I wait for a critical comparison before making a decision (I hope someone undertakes this !)


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## tibia

I recently built a new Windows 10 Pro 64-bit pc. It is mostly for general use but is capable of streaming 4K UHD 60fps content with mullti-channel audio, from Amazon and Netflix. I have zero interest in gaming. The key pc components include a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra-CF (U3E1) motherboard with an Intel Core i9 Kaby Lake CPU, 32GB DDR Corsair memory, and an Intel M.2 2TB SSD. The video card is GeForce RTX2070. Both motherboard and video card support HDCP 2.2. I am feeding HDMI from the video card to an OPPO 203 external HDMI input. OPPO 203 video output drives a Lumagen Pro, which in turn drives a JVC RS600 projector. Audio is by way of the OPPO's 7.1 analog outputs feeding a Trinnov 16 channel processor. This is not the consumer Trinnov Altitude but rather an audio only device from Trinnov's line of commercial products.

Over this past weekend I wanted to stream an Amazon produced 4K UHD movie with 5.1 audio from Xfinity. However, all I got was 1080p and 2.0 audio. Has anyone else had Amazon Prime Video problems like this? Could this be an EDID issue?

I posted this text on the Home Theater Computer forum as well.


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## Craig Peer

blake said:


> Fair point. I guess this was an assumption based on the fact the Radiance Pro was created with graphics technology circa 2016, and the Envy has a bleeding edge Nvidia 2080ti as its GPU. Glad to hear Lumagen performance can be further enhanced with a software update!
> 
> I am having a tough time deciding on Envy vs Radiance Pro to pair with my JVC RS4500 which will arrive in a month. I am concerned about the Envy's potential lack of configurability as you pointed out (plug and play" may be a detriment to a complex setup with multiple sources). Probably best that I wait for a critical comparison before making a decision (I hope someone undertakes this !)


It might be more than a month before Envy's ship in quantity and there are reviews / comparisons available. Takes even longer for new users to find bugs and new products to get de-bugged.


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## blake

Craig Peer said:


> It might be more than a month before Envy's ship in quantity and there are reviews / comparisons available.




Yep. I guess I will hold off on the video processor until these comparisons are available and “suffer” with a RS4500 with no HDR tone mapping etc !


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## aeneas01

Kris Deering said:


> Madshi has been amazing in his support of MadVR, of that there is no doubt. But there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference between supporting a software program and a piece of hardware like the Envy. I've worked with MULTIPLE vendors that have done video processing and the overwhelming feedback I get from them is the nightmare that is supporting HDMI hardware. And until you get a well trained dealer network to start supporting the product, it is all on you as a company to answer/fix/troubleshoot/reproduce every little issue brought up.


which is why i pointed to the unparalleled online (forum) support hdfury has provided for their products, both hardware and software, seems that madashi is positioned to do the same sort of thing, unless some believe that he only has experience in software support and will find it difficult to handle the hardware end of things?

whatever the case, i think it's pretty awesome that we live in a time when newly introduced, cutting edge, boutique/niche av equipment can be supported by online communities, communities that include both the manufacturer and end users, often highly knowledgeable end users, which produces a thorough understanding of the product and helps make it even better.


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## Kris Deering

I'm sure Madshi is more than aware of his limitations for support based on his time and that MadVR is going to do what is necessary to deliver the support they feel they'll need to deliver for the product. Again, I wish them nothing but the best in this endeavor and love to see more options available to the end consumer. Whether that will be forum based or through their own website or other means remains to be seen. My point was only that it is a significantly different type of support when we talk about MadVR support now vs when a physical product is out in the wild.


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## docrog

Can someone here explain (in layman's terms) the concept of "highlight recovery"? It's mentioned quite frequently in the Envy forum as an important madVR feature, but I've never seen it referred to here. Thanks!


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## OzHDHT

blake said:


> Yep. I guess I will hold off on the video processor until these comparisons are available and “suffer” with a RS4500 with no HDR tone mapping etc !





Don't forget, unless you are planning to go without, the easiest option out of the blocks for use with the DCR lens right now is the Lumagen. Not saying you won't be able to do all that with an ENVY of course. I dabble with MadVR on my HTPC for image processing of PC based video from my NAS, etc, but for ease of use it's the Lumagen all the way for DTM also with my 4500.


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## blake

OzHDHT said:


> Don't forget, unless you are planning to go without, the easiest option out of the blocks for use with the DCR lens right now is the Lumagen. Not saying you won't be able to do all that with an ENVY of course. I dabble with MadVR on my HTPC for image processing of PC based video from my NAS, etc, but for ease of use it's the Lumagen all the way for DTM also with my 4500.




I don’t need a DCR lens ! My screen is 154” diagonal scope so the RS4500 will have no problem with that (High laser ). 

But I will miss the DTM.


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## Craig Peer

blake said:


> I don’t need a DCR lens ! My screen is 154” diagonal scope so the RS4500 will have no problem with that (High laser ).
> 
> But I will miss the DTM.




You could have 38% more light for scope vs zooming. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

blake said:


> I don’t need a DCR lens ! My screen is 154” diagonal scope so the RS4500 will have no problem with that (High laser ).
> 
> But I will miss the DTM.



No one "needs" any of this stuff, but cost notwithstanding, why would you not want a 38% increase in light output ?


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## blake

audioguy said:


> No one "needs" any of this stuff, but cost notwithstanding, why would you not want a 38% increase in light output ?




I did the math. 154” diagonal at minimum throw with a rs4500 will provide 30 fL of brightness. No point in going higher and complicating my video chain with an anamorphic lens. Plus it will push my minimum throw back to 1.40 which my theater cannot accommodate.


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## OzHDHT

blake said:


> I did the math. 154” diagonal at minimum throw with a rs4500 will provide 30 fL of brightness. No point in going higher and complicating my video chain with an anamorphic lens. Plus it will push my minimum throw back to 1.40 which my theater cannot accommodate.


You will notice the resolution loss at this size as per I notice the gain with my screen. Remember I have a 150" diagonal screen myself. I couldn't do without the DCR frankly, it's an asset for brightness and resolution. I have no desire to blast my 4500 in high lamp either to compensate.


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## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> No one "needs" any of this stuff, but cost notwithstanding, why would you not want a 38% increase in light output ?


Without the DCR lens, I'd need to run high laser for HDR on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 screen as far as I'm concerned. The DCR lens and the Lumagen's DTM ( and 4096 scaling to use the lens ) complete the package.


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## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> You will notice the resolution loss at this size as per I notice the gain with my screen. Remember I have a 150" diagonal screen myself. I couldn't do without the DCR frankly, it's an asset for brightness and resolution. I have no desire to blast my 4500 in high lamp either to compensate.


Why run in high laser when you can use mid laser and extend the life of the lasers, and run quieter and cooler to boot !!


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## A7mad78

a lot of debate about lumagen/ Envy and hope all the best for both of them but for my need lumagen provide all the need even gaming is a important part and lumagen handle this very well in my PS4 and the long process and reputation and the switch and every source have a different configure that made my use very easy even for my kids what lumagen provide is outstanding and with every update come more and more batter i don’t know how can people convince with a product still not lunch and with the home cinema complex setup it’s not easy task every room are different and each room had it’s own problem so this debate should be after the official release and how it’s deal with the reality when it’s become in different setup different region different projector and preamp ..etc then we can made a debate it’s not just about DTM

Since I add lumagen end of dec 2018 i found it’s one of the best invest with trinnov and made my Balder look stunning and with every update just like have a new projector even the other setup and switch handling become more smooth and very happy that I get this device and many thx fro all of lumagen stuff for all there effort and i am sure the feature will prove that lumagen will remain the trinnov style in video 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

blake said:


> I did the math. 154” diagonal at minimum throw with a rs4500 will provide 30 fL of brightness. No point in going higher and complicating my video chain with an anamorphic lens. Plus it will push my minimum throw back to 1.40 which my theater cannot accommodate.



30FL *AFTER* calibration??? I get it if your room can't accommodate the lens but there is no such thing as too much light output for HDR. If you can figure out a way to make the Lens work, it will be most worth your effort.


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## Wookii

blake said:


> I did the math. 154” diagonal at minimum throw with a rs4500 will provide 30 fL of brightness. No point in going higher and complicating my video chain with an anamorphic lens. Plus it will push my minimum throw back to 1.40 which my theater cannot accommodate.


To add to what others have posted, I think the key thing you are missing is that the RS4500 comes with a manual iris. The main benefit of achieving higher light output than you need (such as with the A-lens) is that you can close the iris down further to achieve your desired peak output, and in doing so and increase your native contrast.


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## audioguy

Wookii said:


> To add to what others have posted, I think the key thing you are missing is that the RS4500 comes with a manual iris. The main benefit of achieving higher light output than you need (such as with the A-lens) is that you can close the iris down further to achieve you desired peak output, and in doing so and increase your native contrast.



And the congregation said: "Amen" !!


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## Mike Garrett

tibia said:


> I recently built a new Windows 10 Pro 64-bit pc. It is mostly for general use but is capable of streaming 4K UHD 60fps content with mullti-channel audio, from Amazon and Netflix. I have zero interest in gaming. The key pc components include a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra-CF (U3E1) motherboard with an Intel Core i9 Kaby Lake CPU, 32GB DDR Corsair memory, and an Intel M.2 2TB SSD. The video card is GeForce RTX2070. Both motherboard and video card support HDCP 2.2. I am feeding HDMI from the video card to an OPPO 203 external HDMI input. OPPO 203 video output drives a Lumagen Pro, which in turn drives a JVC RS600 projector. Audio is by way of the OPPO's 7.1 analog outputs feeding a Trinnov 16 channel processor. This is not the consumer Trinnov Altitude but rather an audio only device from Trinnov's line of commercial products.
> 
> *Over this past weekend I wanted to stream an Amazon produced 4K UHD movie with 5.1 audio from Xfinity. However, all I got was 1080p and 2.0 audio. Has anyone else had Amazon Prime Video problems like this? Could this be an EDID issue?*
> 
> I posted this text on the Home Theater Computer forum as well.


Not an Amazon prime problem. You are trying to feed copy protected material through a piece of equipment that is not HDCP 2.2 (HTPC).


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## desertdome

Mike Garrett said:


> Not an Amazon prime problem. You are trying to feed copy protected material through a piece of equipment that is not HDCP 2.2 (HTPC).


It is basically an Amazon Prime issue. Amazon Prime only allows stereo through web applications and has no Windows 10 app. Netflix has a Windows 10 app and you get UHD and Atmos. You can also use Microsoft Edge for Netflix. HDCP 2.2 has been supported by graphics cards for almost 4 years now (May 2016) so "copy protected" has little to do with it.


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## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> The DTM is setup for a projector out of the box, not a flat panel. You would not want to run it in SDR2020 for an OLED. So far I have not seen a reason to use a Lumagen for DTM with a flat panel like the 7 series OLED, but I also haven’t done any testing directly to see what merits it would have vice the onboard tone mapping.





Kris Deering said:


> I had Stacey Spears himself come over to evaluate the tone mapping of the Lumagen with his montage. He commented directly on the horse scene and the fence in the snow right before it saying that most tone mapping solutions made these scenes look too dark and that the Lumagen looked exactly how the original grade looked for balance and gamma. He particularly pointed out the fence beams, which look much too dark on most displays, even my C7 OLED.
> 
> As for comparisons, one of the prime testers for the Lumagen tone mapping is a studio grader who compares the Lumagen feeding a Dolby Cinema projector directly against a Pulsar running the original master and also the output grade master from Dolby to see how close it would get to what Dolby would do for that peak output. His opinion is the Lumagen gives a better result than the Dolby output most of the time and does a remarkable job of maintaining the intended look when compared directly to the Pulsar.


Kris, 

I am curious to know if the S&M montage viewing with @sspears would cause you to change your recommendation in the first post above? Or is the material in the S&M montage is such a torture test that it would rarely be seen in typical program material?

I also recall that @jrp purchased an OLED some time back, so I am wondering if there is a recommendation for setting Max Light and Low-Set Ratio for OLED panels, like it has been recommended for projectors?

On behalf of all neophyte DIY calibration enthusiasts, thanks for your time and any advice you wish to impart upon us.

Mark


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## blake

audioguy said:


> And the congregation said: "Amen" !!


I thought I would have more than enough light output for good HDR (with dynamic tone mapping - Kris Deering frequently reminds us we don't need super high lumens for HDR if good tone mapping used, like the Lumagen Radiance Pro). Is this the right calculations?

JVC RS-4500 running HIGH LASER mode
Throw distance= 198" (16'6"). Can't move PJ any further back than this.
Screen gain = 0.8 (SSE Enlightor Neo, unbenchmarked)
Screen size = 2.40 AR, 140" width (152" diagonal)
Batcave

High laser = 3000 lumens, calibrated (no color filter) is ~2500 lumens
0.8 gain (un-benchmarked) = down to 2000 lumens 

Jack Liu projector calc gives only 21 ftL.
Lower than Projector Central (but this one didn't allow lumen output per se to be specified).

Did I do this right, and is 21 fL too low for good HDR with Lumagen DTM?
How much would clamping down the manual iris (to improve contrast) cut down brightness?


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## docrog

I earlier asked here whether anyone could educate me as to whether or not there is a Lumagen equivalent to madVR's "Highlight Recovery". Since no one here has weighed in, I'm posting a response from @lovingdvd (intimately involved with madVR and development of the Envy) who provided me with the following insight:

"The best way to describe Highlight Recovery is to consider the compression that happens to highlights as a result of tone mapping... Let's say you have an explosion or very bright highlights with two adjacent pixels, one encoded at 3000 nits and one at 4000 nits. This 1000 nit difference is very significant and would be clearly visible on a reference studio monitor that did not need tone mapping, as HDR masters may be typically encoded. Now, a tone mapping curve applies dramatically more compression at the top of the luminance range than it applies in shadow regions. Actually, it might not compress shadow regions at all. But it might apply a 1000:1 compression at the top of the luminance range. So 2 neighboring pixels with 3000 and 4000 nits after tone mapping might actually end up at 39 and 40 nits.

In that case there is a measly one nit difference in brightness between these two pixels, whereas the master had a significant difference between the pixels. The result is that there is now no visible difference between these two pixels, and the same thing is happening across a huge number of pixels in the bright areas. This results in a significant loss of resolution in the brightest areas of the image, where we are most concerned about having great detail in a HDR image.

Our Highlight Recovery algorithm helps to prevent this crush, which results in much more defined and detailed highlight regions. In fact, it so effective that often times people incorrectly think that our Highlight Recovery is some sort of sharpening filter, but it is not - rather, it is just preventing the loss of detail that occurs in the highlights otherwise. So yes it does look a lot sharper and more defined, well, because it is, but not because we sharpened it, but because we prevented the loss in the first place. This algorithm is very complex and to do it right and at our quality level requires a tremendous amount of GPU power........"

So, out of curiosity, does Lumagen perform similar algorithmic highlight recovery via the FPGA? I've never seen it mentioned and I want to make sure that my 4240 is optimally configured to take maximal advantage of any similar process. Thanks!


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## thrang

Not sure what others are noticing, but I still see two or three moments of DTM brightness changes during a film, sometimes several more... most recent example is in Avengers Endgame when Tony is talking to his father at the military base before Howard gets into his limo... as the film cuts back and forth between Howard and Tony, the brightness is different (on Tony and his face) across three or four cuts.

It seems to get confused as the film cuts between the two characters and is mis-applying tone mapping from the prior cut.

Quite obvious. Happens other times in the move and most other titles. So I think this is an issue Lumagen still needs to figure out...


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## bobof

thrang said:


> Not sure what others are noticing, but I still see two or three moments of DTM brightness changes during a film, sometimes several more... most recent example is in Avengers Endgame when Tony is talking to his father at the military base before Howard gets into his limo... as the film cuts back and forth between Howard and Tony, the brightness is different (on Tony and his face) across three or four cuts.
> 
> It seems to get confused as the film cuts between the two characters and is mis-applying tone mapping from the prior cut.
> 
> Quite obvious. Happens other times in the move and most other titles. So I think this is an issue Lumagen still needs to figure out...


Similarly I noticed some mid scene jumps in a movie recently (Hacksaw ridge). I did feed back to Lumagen and Patrick turned round a test build which was about 95% there (I think I saw one very slight jump in that same title). He mentioned there is some more work ongoing in this area. Since then I hadn't noticed anything during recent actual viewing on that test build (Ad Astra, Green Book, Rocket Man, Narcos Mexico are what has been showing for the last week or so, all HDR). But they were all new titles to me so not necessarily a brilliant test as I'm usually more interested in the story...! 

If you haven't already I'd feed back the exact timestamps to Lumagen support as they will undoubtedly be helpful in improving the algorithms.


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## Eventidal

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen has a number of improvements to their pipeline they are working on at the moment, so I wouldn’t be surprised if upscaling was part of it.


If they could provide a superior upscaling algorithm which is on par with Sony´s Reality Creation (in terms of resolution) , now that would be something! 

Also I am still waiting since long for the sharpness algorithm being released. The two together could be amazing...


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## audioguy

Eventidal said:


> If they could provide a superior upscaling algorithm which is on par with Sony´s Reality Creation (in terms of resolution) , now that would be something!
> 
> Also I am still waiting since long for the sharpness algorithm being released. The two together could be amazing...


Each to his own but I have very mixed feelings about some of these "fake" improvements. While improved upscaling would be a nice add on, when I had my Sony, I was not a fan of "Reality Creation". Same with Darbee. A mild touch of it was fun but anything more than that I found annoying, and I was not a fan. I don't have it enabled in my Lumagen. My Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph provides a stunning image just like it is now.


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## Mike Garrett

blake said:


> I thought I would have more than enough light output for good HDR (with dynamic tone mapping - Kris Deering frequently reminds us we don't need super high lumens for HDR if good tone mapping used, like the Lumagen Radiance Pro). Is this the right calculations?
> 
> JVC RS-4500 running HIGH LASER mode
> Throw distance= 198" (16'6"). Can't move PJ any further back than this.
> Screen gain = 0.8 (SSE Enlightor Neo, unbenchmarked)
> Screen size = 2.40 AR, 140" width (152" diagonal)
> Batcave
> 
> High laser = 3000 lumens, calibrated (no color filter) is ~2500 lumens
> 0.8 gain (un-benchmarked) = down to 2000 lumens
> 
> Jack Liu projector calc gives only 21 ftL.
> Lower than Projector Central (but this one didn't allow lumen output per se to be specified).
> 
> Did I do this right, and is 21 fL too low for good HDR with Lumagen DTM?
> How much would clamping down the manual iris (to improve contrast) cut down brightness?


I calculate 25FL. That is enough, but that is with you running projector full out. At 5,000 hours you will be around 22FL. Based on 20,000 to half life in high laser. Medium laser with DCR and you start off with 24FL, but with medium laser giving you 30,000 to half life, it will dim at an even slower rate, so you will end up very close to the same brightness at 5,000 hours. These numbers are with manual iris fully open. I would plan on buying the DCR.


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## Eventidal

audioguy said:


> Each to his own but I have very mixed feelings about some of these "fake" improvements. While improved upscaling would be a nice add on, when I had my Sony, I was not a fan of "Reality Creation". Same with Darbee. A mild touch of it was fun but anything more than that I found annoying, and I was not a fan. I don't have it enabled in my Lumagen. My Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph provides a stunning image just like it is now.


Everybody has their own taste... To me RC is the best upscaling compared to any other product I have owned so far. I would love the Lumagen to beat it! And I think Darbee works great for 3D content. I cannot find anything fake here, it´s a question of proper adjustments.

De gustibus non est disputandum!


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## audioguy

Eventidal said:


> De gustibus non est disputandum!



Had to look that one up


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## Mike Garrett

Eventidal said:


> Everybody has their own taste... To me RC is the best upscaling compared to any other product I have owned so far. I would love the Lumagen to beat it! And I think Darbee works great for 3D content. I cannot find anything fake here, it´s a question of proper adjustments.
> 
> De gustibus non est disputandum!


Problem is, RC is not just upscaling. RC is upscaling and sharpening.


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## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Each to his own but I have very mixed feelings about some of these "fake" improvements. While improved upscaling would be a nice add on, when I had my Sony, I was not a fan of "Reality Creation". Same with Darbee. A mild touch of it was fun but anything more than that I found annoying, and I was not a fan. I don't have it enabled in my Lumagen. My Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph provides a stunning image just like it is now.


Same here. I no longer like having Darbee on. It was fun back in the day when it first came out, but these days I prefer less processing.


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## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> *Similarly I noticed some mid scene jumps in a movie recently (Hacksaw ridge)*. I did feed back to Lumagen and Patrick turned round a test build which was about 95% there (I think I saw one very slight jump in that same title). He mentioned there is some more work ongoing in this area. Since then I hadn't noticed anything during recent actual viewing on that test build (Ad Astra, Green Book, Rocket Man, Narcos Mexico are what has been showing for the last week or so, all HDR). But they were all new titles to me so not necessarily a brilliant test as I'm usually more interested in the story...!
> 
> If you haven't already I'd feed back the exact timestamps to Lumagen support as they will undoubtedly be helpful in improving the algorithms.


I haven't noticed any problems since the last firmware update. What scene ? I'd be curious to see if it does it on my projector.


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## sspears

giomania said:


> Kris,
> 
> I am curious to know if the S&M montage viewing with @sspears would cause you to change your recommendation in the first post above? Or is the material in the S&M montage is such a torture test that it would rarely be seen in typical program material?
> 
> I also recall that @jrp purchased an OLED some time back, so I am wondering if there is a recommendation for setting Max Light and Low-Set Ratio for OLED panels, like it has been recommended for projectors?
> 
> On behalf of all neophyte DIY calibration enthusiasts, thanks for your time and any advice you wish to impart upon us.
> 
> Mark


We include a 600 and 1000 nit version of the montage to compare against your displays tone mapping of the 10,000 version. We did push a more aggressive grade so that everyone has material to test with to improve their tone mapping algorithms before mainstream content starts to appear. They were both rendered using the Dolby Vision CMU, which applies their tone mapping and trim pass adjustments.


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## docrog

sspears said:


> We include a 600 and 1000 nit version of the montage to compare against your displays tone mapping of the 10,000 version. We did push a more aggressive grade so that everyone has material to test with to improve their tone mapping algorithms before mainstream content starts to appear. They were both rendered using the Dolby Vision CMU, which applies their tone mapping and trim pass adjustments.


Hoping that you could clear this up..... irrespective of whether I use the 600 or 1000 nit HDR version of the montage, my NX7 reports 1000 nit via the Radiance Pro. Am I missing something here? Thanks!


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## sspears

docrog said:


> Hoping that you could clear this up..... irrespective of whether I use the 600 or 1000 nit HDR version of the montage, my NX7 reports 1000 nit via the Radiance Pro. Am I missing something here? Thanks!


Which player are you using? If it is a Panasonic, do you have HDR Optimizer enabled? If so, it hard codes the output to a specific nit level based on player settings. Turn it off and it will report the content nit level.


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## bobof

Craig Peer said:


> I haven't noticed any problems since the last firmware update. What scene ? I'd be curious to see if it does it on my projector.


Be surprised if you don't see it (unless you arrive in the cinema room via that cellar of yours  )
Patrick did confirm he saw the issues. It's the battlefield scene from 1h20 - usually the jumps happen coincident with an explosion on screen. There are two or 3 where you'll see the scene dim down suddenly.


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## bobof

docrog said:


> I earlier asked here whether anyone could educate me as to whether or not there is a Lumagen equivalent to madVR's "Highlight Recovery". Since no one here has weighed in, I'm posting a response from @lovingdvd (intimately involved with madVR and development of the Envy) who provided me with the following insight:
> ...snip...
> So, out of curiosity, does Lumagen perform similar algorithmic highlight recovery via the FPGA? I've never seen it mentioned and I want to make sure that my 4240 is optimally configured to take maximal advantage of any similar process. Thanks!


As far as I'm aware, no; all the processing on the Lumagen units affects the entire image, whereas from the sound of it this works to pick out details, which implies some areas of the image will receive the benefit of this and some won't. 

There is a fine line between judiciously bringing out some detail that was being masked and an image that has its balance taken over the edge into looking "hyper real" with an excess of detail rendered, if that makes sense. There was a photo floating around which seemed to be heading that way for me. But at least it sounds like you can tune the level, and it sounds like quite a lot of folk like it, so I think it has some "legs".


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## MDesigns

docrog said:


> Hoping that you could clear this up..... irrespective of whether I use the 600 or 1000 nit HDR version of the montage, my NX7 reports 1000 nit via the Radiance Pro. Am I missing something here? Thanks!


If you use the Lumagen to tonemap the image, why is the NX7 reporting any nits levels when it should be receiving tonemapped "SDR"? Or is this the feature in the lumagen to "turn on the hdr flag" with some random nits number to make the jvc change to hdr picture mode? That would explain why it is always 1000 nits.

I think you should use the Lumagen to check source info. It probably has that kind of feature?


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## bobof

docrog said:


> I'm using the Panasonic UB820, but the Optimizer is set to "OFF" and no other controls are enabled. It also doesn't seem to make a difference which type of display I select for the UB820 (although I typically select basic luminance projector, I've set it as high as Bright LCD). Consistent with the choice on your disc's montage, the Lumagen shows Max CLL= 10,000 (output is 3D LUT HDR BY.2020 in SDR container), but the NX7 shows 1000/400 nits. Any ideas why?


It will be related to you using the HDR flag I believe.
This should be irrelevant, as you're outputting SDR gamma it looks like. The HDR flag should only be being used to select a different user mode, so it doesn't matter what it says.
Unless, that is, you've also left the projector in a mode which does HDR tone mapping, which would almost certainly be bad.


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## docrog

Thanks, all. Yes, the discrepancy in nits is obviously related to the "false" HDR flag which is generated by the selected Lumagen choice to trip the NX7 into user mode for HDR BT.2020 with filter, despite actually being in the SDR BT.2020 container. I've been able to prove this by changing NX7 inputs (bypassing the Lumagen) where the NX7 now appropriately shows 10,000 nits for the S&M disc when set to 10,000 nits while all HDR sources report 1000/400 when utilizing the Lumagen (and the correct nits are shown through the bypassed NX7 input). That brings up a new question regarding display selection for the UB820. Previously, I'd chosen the luminance for basic projector (lowest). Should I choose the brightest setting (Bright LCD) because the Lumagen is performing tone mapping or doesn't it matter which choice of display the UB820 is set for? Much appreciated!


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## Kris Deering

The selection of display in the Panasonic is only relevant if you are using their tone mapping (HDR Optimizer is ON in the options menu), otherwise this setting has no effect on the output.


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## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Hoping that you could clear this up..... irrespective of whether I use the 600 or 1000 nit HDR version of the montage, my NX7 reports 1000 nit via the Radiance Pro. Am I missing something here? Thanks!


If you want to see what version is being reported to the Lumagen, info page 2 has the metadata. You're seeing the fixed output mode that the Lumagen is outputting to the display. 

What Stacey was talking about originally is comparing the tone mapping in the OLED. If you have an OLED select really ANY grade above 600 from the montage and the tone mapping in the OLED will be engaged. Look at some of the scenes in the montage. Then go to the 600 nit grade (this should disable any tone mapping in the OLED) and see how it compares. Because this was a TRUE 600 nit grade, if the tone mapping is doing a good job, the end result should look pretty close. 

This goes back to the heart of what I was talking about earlier. Proper tone mapping should not be a tool to make a low nit display look like an HDR display (that would require a lot of gamma manipulation to provoke an artificially dynamic look) but to essentially do a new grade on the higher nit content to the lower nit level of a display with as little (or no) artifacts as possible. Because it IS a dynamic solution, it can not be infallible, or else it wouldn't be dynamic! But their goal is to minimize artifacts as much as possible. Anyone that is noticing repeatable artifacts IN NORMAL PLAYBACK should report them to Lumagen as they are pretty diligent about trying to solve them if at all possible. 

Lumagen's goal has been to replicate what a grading would look like at a lower level for that content, which is why part of the development of the tone mapping has been leveraging someone who actually masters content and can compare the output of the Radiance in a controlled environment against the masters IN THE STUDIO.


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## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> The selection of display in the Panasonic is only relevant if you are using their tone mapping (HDR Optimizer is ON in the options menu), otherwise this setting has no effect on the output.


Thanks for that information, Kris. I'll just leave it at whatever selection it's currently on.


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## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> If you want to see what version is being reported to the Lumagen, info page 2 has the metadata. You're seeing the fixed output mode that the Lumagen is outputting to the display.


Thanks, Kris. I was already aware that p.2 showed 10,000 nits "incoming" and initially couldn't understand why the NX7 was showing MaxCLL 1000. That's since been ironed out, being due to the false HDR flag which was selected when Craig Rounds set-up my 4240 in order to trip the NX7 into the proper HDR BT.2020 user mode when sending HDR in the SDR container). The reason that I initially asked was because, although I could see nits at input to the Lumagen, I couldn't determine nits at output (apparently because output was SDR BT.2020, not HDR).


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## blake

Mike Garrett said:


> I calculate 25FL. That is enough, but that is with you running projector full out. At 5,000 hours you will be around 22FL. Based on 20,000 to half life in high laser. Medium laser with DCR and you start off with 24FL, but with medium laser giving you 30,000 to half life, it will dim at an even slower rate, so you will end up very close to the same brightness at 5,000 hours. These numbers are with manual iris fully open. I would plan on buying the DCR.



When one quotes the RS4500 as 3000 lumens out of the box , but 2500 calibrated, doesn’t part of this calibration drop include clamping down the manual iris a few stops? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kris Deering

blake said:


> When one quotes the RS4500 as 3000 lumens out of the box , but 2500 calibrated, doesn’t part of this calibration drop include clamping down the manual iris a few stops?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, that would be from correcting the white point for proper D65 tracking. 3000 lumens is when the projector is in high laser with the Color Profile set to OFF. This defeats any factory calibration settings and puts out the peak output with no respect to proper calibration.


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## blake

Mike Garrett said:


> I calculate 25FL. That is enough, but that is with you running projector full out. At 5,000 hours you will be around 22FL. Based on 20,000 to half life in high laser. Medium laser with DCR and you start off with 24FL, but with medium laser giving you 30,000 to half life, it will dim at an even slower rate, so you will end up very close to the same brightness at 5,000 hours. These numbers are with manual iris fully open. I would plan on buying the DCR.




Do we know for sure the laser half life is 20,000 hours ? Could it be longer if JVC is perhaps giving a conservative estimate on their spec ? Wonder if anyone has measured now that it’s been out a few years. 

I wonder if there is a way to replace the laser diodes ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

blake said:


> Do we know for sure the laser half life is 20,000 hours ? Could it be longer if JVC is perhaps giving a conservative estimate on their spec ? Wonder if anyone has measured now that it’s been out a few years.
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to replace the laser diodes ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Replacing the lasers is possible but probably expensive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## venkatesh_m

docrog said:


> Thanks, Kris. I was already aware that p.2 showed 10,000 nits "incoming" and initially couldn't understand why the NX7 was showing MaxCLL 1000. That's since been ironed out, being due to the false HDR flag which was selected when Craig Rounds set-up my 4240 in order to trip the NX7 into the proper HDR BT.2020 user mode when sending HDR in the SDR container). The reason that I initially asked was because, although I could see nits at input to the Lumagen, I couldn't determine nits at output (apparently because output was SDR BT.2020, not HDR).


If the Lumagen is tonemapping the HDR signal, the NX7 shd be reporting SDR2020, right? Or is ur HDR BT2020 user mode actually setup for SDR P3 and u r just using it to auto select the right user mode?


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## woofer

blake said:


> Do we know for sure the laser half life is 20,000 hours ? Could it be longer if JVC is perhaps giving a conservative estimate on their spec ? Wonder if anyone has measured now that it’s been out a few years.


Dont want to clog this thread.. so......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-u...rs4500-z1-owner-s-thread-79.html#post59270654


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## Eventidal

Mike Garrett said:


> Problem is, RC is not just upscaling. RC is upscaling and sharpening.


Still looks better than any upscaling algorithm available I have seen so far. Maybe the Envy will change that. 

I really hope for a new upscaling and finally the introduction sharpening algorithm in the Lumagen. If you don't like it don't use it, fine. 

First of all let' s see what it could possibly add to the table. Many users would love a new implementation.


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## Eventidal

Craig Peer said:


> Same here. I no longer like having Darbee on. It was fun back in the day when it first came out, but these days I prefer less processing.


It can be very distracting with movies. But using it for 3D and sport events makes a huge difference, believe me. 

Would I also use them on a TV? Certainly not. The screen is too small and no additional contrast needed.

If you don't program different settings for movies/sports/3d in your Lumagen give it a pass.

This is not an "always on" option...


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## bobof

I guess sharpness is just not something I ever find lacking, which goes back to significant sharpness never having been an attribute I've noticed as present in a cinema presentation anywhere.
I really am of the opinion that once you've got a handle on the optical matters around your setup, additional sharpening isn't something that has any real place.

Upscaling and restoring lost sharpness is I guess a bit different story, but my answer for that these days in general is... just get the 4K version  Increasingly in my own system the frequency of watching something where I'd actively be able to use custom upscaling are limited because most of the 1080p content is streamed via boxes I'd have to mess around with to make output the 1080p stream (as their default behaviour is to upscale), and I really don't have the energy when in "watch mode" to work out if a title is 4K or 1080p, and then do something to the setup to change it.

But given the nature of the products I can respect that folk may want a sharpening control; perhaps they come into play more if you have 1080p only sources like cable boxes etc (I don't); selfishly though I'd just rather the effort involved were put elsewhere as I wouldn't likely use it


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> But given the nature of the products I can respect that folk may want a sharpening control; perhaps they come into play more if you have 1080p only sources like cable boxes etc (I don't); selfishly though I'd just rather the effort involved were put elsewhere as I wouldn't likely use it


Every weekend when it comes to football I wished I had better sharpness/details/higher resolution... If all sources were 4K there would be most likely no need for this, agreed!!


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> I'd just rather the effort involved were put elsewhere as I wouldn't likely use it


I have that feeling that a lot of people start to think so too and try to "vote" against features here based on their personal needs. 

Why not be patient and wait for ALL features to be implemented? There is still lots of space in the FPGA


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> I have that feeling that a lot of people start to think so too and try to "vote" against features here based on their personal needs.
> 
> Why not be patient and wait for ALL features to be implemented? There is still lots of space in the FPGA


I think it's just human nature. As I say I can empathise with why you might want it with poorer sources, as I don't really care for them as my own preference is for efforts to be in dealing with premium sources as well as possible before those things happen (silk purse and sow's ear analogy). 

At the end of the day I guess the folk at Lumagen without a sprawling team to implement every possible feature may find reasoned opinions as to what features are important to be useful information in attacking priorities. If the arguments and opinions are compelling enough, and the requests achievable, I'm sure they will happen.

There was a inherent risk with the way the product evolved from beta that features that weren't of huge interest might get sidelined in the interest of things like DTM etc. But it sounds like there are some features currently in the pipeworks from some of the recent posts from folk in the know, I'll be interested to see which ones land  

Anyway, I have my fingers crossed that everyone gets the features they want. Just mine first, alright?!


----------



## Eventidal

bobof said:


> Anyway, I have my fingers crossed that everyone gets the features they want. Just mine first, alright?!


LOL. Name them!


----------



## t1msu

Hello,

I want to use the following setup:
- 16:9 Projector without anamorphic lens
- 2.05:1 screen

I would like to have the option to view every input aspect ratio in full screen i.e. a combination of cropping and stretching.

How can I achieve that?
The output aspect ratio options is only useful when using a anamorphic lens, right? So I have to set it to 1.78:1, even when using a 2.05:1 screen?

But when using 1.78:1 output aspect ratio, I can't use NLS for 1.78:1 material.

Can somebody point me in the right direction?


----------



## Mike Garrett

blake said:


> Do we know for sure the laser half life is 20,000 hours ? Could it be longer if JVC is perhaps giving a conservative estimate on their spec ? Wonder if anyone has measured now that it’s been out a few years.
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to replace the laser diodes ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Replacing the laser is no small task, like replacing a lamp. To do this, the projector would have to go back to the factory or maybe to Japan. Would be very costly. While it can be done, I am not sure anyone would spend the money, especially if the projector was five years old or more.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Eventidal said:


> There is still lots of space in the FPGA


Do we know that for a fact? Any idea how much of it is utilised today?


----------



## Eventidal

DannyBoy73 said:


> Do we know that for a fact? Any idea how much of it is utilised today?


Yes, Jim stated this recently in a post. So no need to get nervous about upcoming features.


----------



## ShaharT

For what it's worth in terms of an update, I placed an order for the Madvr Envy (the top-end model, likely to be called 'pro'). I'm planning to set it up at the end of my video chain, with a Lumagen I already have (and love!) installed right before it. This should hopefully allow an easy A/B, by turning off the Lumagen processing / the Envy. If there's a better way to set this up to allow A/B testing, I'm happy to hear your thoughts. At the moment all my video sources are switched via the Lumagen, and the audio is separately routed to a Trinnov. 

The screen is a Screen Innovation Transformer with a Slate 1.2 fabric (135" Diagonal) that easily allows various masking (16:9, 2.35, 2.40). The PJ is a Sony 995, coupled with a Paladin DCR lens. 

I don't yet have an ETA for the Envy (hopefully soon!). I'm completely unbiased, I find the Lumagen one of the better purchases I've made and I am in awe at what it does for my image. I'm genuinely curious and looking forward to being able to compare both products (and maybe even keep both in my video chain, if I see this makes sense in practice).


----------



## audioguy

ShaharT said:


> For what it's worth in terms of an update, I placed an order for the Madvr Envy (the top-end model, likely to be called 'pro'). I'm planning to set it up at the end of my video chain, with a Lumagen I already have (and love!) installed right before it. This should hopefully allow an easy A/B, by turning off the Lumagen processing / the Envy. If there's a better way to set this up to allow A/B testing, I'm happy to hear your thoughts. At the moment all my video sources are switched via the Lumagen, and the audio is separately routed to a Trinnov.
> 
> The screen is a Screen Innovation Transformer with a Slate 1.2 fabric (135" Diagonal) that easily allows various masking (16:9, 2.35, 2.40). The PJ is a Sony 995, coupled with a Paladin DCR lens.
> 
> I don't yet have an ETA for the Envy (hopefully soon!). I'm completely unbiased, I find the Lumagen one of the better purchases I've made and I am in awe at what it does for my image. I'm genuinely curious and looking forward to being able to compare both products (and maybe even keep both in my video chain, if I see this makes sense in practice).



Curious? Who did your video and Lumagen calibration and who will do the Envy calibration?


----------



## bobof

Eventidal said:


> LOL. Name them!


I was jesting. To be honest I'm content with the features; the recent beta Patrick sent out had 3D AutoAspect working now. Most of the stuff I'm after is minor icing on the cake these days so it would be good for some new headliner features to drop.

The sum total of my list is:
I'd be keen to see a bigger 1D and maybe 3D LUT option, but at the same time I could understand not wanting to give up FPGA to that. 
There are a few annoyances with bits of kit that disagree with the 18G inputs (mostly out of Lumagen's hands it seems) - AppleTV4K with Atmos sound and dodgy metadata, Samsung UHD player chapter skips.
It would be nice if the video dropped frame that happens with AA switching for folk like me who have CIW screens were addressed (nothing about the image needs to change when the aspect is detected, but there still is a chain of events kicked off that drops a frame or two for some reason).
It would be nice to have some custom EDID functionality for hacking around with sources (like the current DV player led profile stuff ongoing in other threads).
And of course ongoing improvements to the DTM stuff to fix up the odd few issues seen (but they pretty much get addressed as soon as noted these days so a bit of a non-item) and any new DTM related features beneficial to my viewing pleasure...


----------



## thrang

audioguy said:


> Curious? Who did your video and Lumagen calibration and who will do the Envy calibration?


Does the Envy support auto-cal via Calman or Lightspace?


----------



## t1msu

t1msu said:


> Hello,
> 
> I want to use the following setup:
> - 16:9 Projector without anamorphic lens
> - 2.05:1 screen
> 
> I would like to have the option to view every input aspect ratio in full screen i.e. a combination of cropping and stretching.
> 
> How can I achieve that?
> The output aspect ratio options is only useful when using a anamorphic lens, right? So I have to set it to 1.78:1, even when using a 2.05:1 screen?
> 
> But when using 1.78:1 output aspect ratio, I can't use NLS for 1.78:1 material.
> 
> Can somebody point me in the right direction?


Ok, I kind of got it working.
I set the output aspect ratio to 2.05 and used output shrink of 6.5% on the top and bottom.

But I'm still a bit disappointed that I can't use NLS in the other direction (from a wider aspect ratio to a taller)


----------



## bobof

t1msu said:


> Ok, I kind of got it working.
> I set the output aspect ratio to 2.05 and used output shrink of 6.5% on the top and bottom.
> 
> But I'm still a bit disappointed that I can't use NLS in the other direction (from a wider aspect ratio to a taller)


I wouldn't be disappointed; I can't see it looking anything other than terrible. You only (kind of) get away with NLS horizontally as often people will be in the centre of the screen mostly. NLS across the height would lead to some very odd distorted views of things...

If you don't care for the original aspect just zoom the whole image a little; if it tends to cut heads off you can zoom and drop a bit.


----------



## t1msu

bobof said:


> I wouldn't be disappointed; I can't see it looking anything other than terrible. You only (kind of) get away with NLS horizontally as often people will be in the centre of the screen mostly. NLS across the height would lead to some very odd distorted views of things...
> 
> If you don't care for the original aspect just zoom the whole image a little; if it tends to cut heads off you can zoom and drop a bit.


Yeah maybe that is true. But it would be nice to apply a not visible amount of stretch (like 3% or so) so that less zoom is required.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I guess sharpness is just not something I ever find lacking, which goes back to significant sharpness never having been an attribute I've noticed as present in a cinema presentation anywhere.
> I really am of the opinion that once you've got a handle on the optical matters around your setup, additional sharpening isn't something that has any real place.
> 
> Upscaling and restoring lost sharpness is I guess a bit different story, but my answer for that these days in general is... just get the 4K version  Increasingly in my own system the frequency of watching something where I'd actively be able to use custom upscaling are limited because most of the 1080p content is streamed via boxes I'd have to mess around with to make output the 1080p stream (as their default behaviour is to upscale), and I really don't have the energy when in "watch mode" to work out if a title is 4K or 1080p, and then do something to the setup to change it.
> 
> But given the nature of the products I can respect that folk may want a sharpening control; perhaps they come into play more if you have 1080p only sources like cable boxes etc (I don't); selfishly though I'd just rather the effort involved were put elsewhere as I wouldn't likely use it


I am with you here. It has gotten to the point where more than 95% of what I watch is already 4K. I can't remember the last time I bought a movie (disc or streaming) that wasn't 4K and I don't have a cable box, so I don't have all the issues associated with the dreadful cable picture they provide. The biggest issue I see with cable is that everything else is getting so much better that it continually looks worse and worse as we become used to the 4K goodness of stuff like Netflix and Amazon Prime. Let's be honest, it wasn't even as good as DVD/Blu-ray, so now it is beyond obsolete. Maybe at some point cable will get better (the 4K Super Bowl looked pretty amazing). But for now, I'm in the same ballpark as you with VERY little need for upscaling at all.



bobof said:


> I was jesting. To be honest I'm content with the features; the recent beta Patrick sent out had 3D AutoAspect working now. Most of the stuff I'm after is minor icing on the cake these days so it would be good for some new headliner features to drop.
> 
> The sum total of my list is:
> I'd be keen to see a bigger 1D and maybe 3D LUT option, but at the same time I could understand not wanting to give up FPGA to that.
> There are a few annoyances with bits of kit that disagree with the 18G inputs (mostly out of Lumagen's hands it seems) - AppleTV4K with Atmos sound and dodgy metadata, Samsung UHD player chapter skips.
> It would be nice if the video dropped frame that happens with AA switching for folk like me who have CIW screens were addressed (nothing about the image needs to change when the aspect is detected, but there still is a chain of events kicked off that drops a frame or two for some reason).
> It would be nice to have some custom EDID functionality for hacking around with sources (like the current DV player led profile stuff ongoing in other threads).
> And of course ongoing improvements to the DTM stuff to fix up the odd few issues seen (but they pretty much get addressed as soon as noted these days so a bit of a non-item) and any new DTM related features beneficial to my viewing pleasure...


A bigger 1D LUT would be on my list as well. I'd also like to see calibration software support variable 1D LUT calibrations so we could optimize the points better for auto calibration functions. 

The ATV4K issue is annoying but I've found some workarounds. First, it ONLY happens with iTunes based DV/DA content, it does not effect any other streaming service that offers the same DV/DA content. So if you have your iTunes library linked to a service like Movies Anywhere, you can use their app or something like Vudu for titles that are specifically DV/DA in iTunes and you get zero dropouts. I have people letting Apple know about this issue, so hopefully we'll see some resolve in the future, but for now the MA/Vudu way works for the majority of the titles I have and I don't take a hit in quality (I mainly use MA).



thrang said:


> Does the Envy support auto-cal via Calman or Lightspace?


Yes. The Envy is a LUT box, so as long as the software can recognize the device and load a LUT, it works. The Envy Pro has a 24x24x24 3D LUT if I remember right, as opposed to the 17x17x17 LUT in the Lumagen. Not sure on their 1D LUT (or if it even has one).


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> The biggest issue I see with cable is that everything else is getting so much better that it continually looks worse and worse as we become used to the 4K goodness of stuff like Netflix and Amazon Prime. Let's be honest, it wasn't even as good as DVD/Blu-ray, so now it is beyond obsolete. Maybe at some point cable will get better (the 4K Super Bowl looked pretty amazing). But for now, I'm in the same ballpark as you with VERY little need for upscaling at all.


"Normal telly" as it used to be called in this house is now "old telly", which says it all really...! 



Kris Deering said:


> A bigger 1D LUT would be on my list as well. I'd also like to see calibration software support variable 1D LUT calibrations so we could optimize the points better for auto calibration functions.


Interesting. The interface to try and offer that to the user would be fun, I think it might just be better to support more 1D control points than customize them.
Not sure if you realised that apparently LS now supports outputting the large custom gamma curve table that can be uploaded by Arve (only useful for JVC projectors). I plan to give it a go next time I do a calibration (which is probably overdue, but too much to watch at the moment... 



Kris Deering said:


> The ATV4K issue is annoying but I've found some workarounds. First, it ONLY happens with iTunes based DV/DA content, it does not effect any other streaming service that offers the same DV/DA content. So if you have your iTunes library linked to a service like Movies Anywhere, you can use their app or something like Vudu for titles that are specifically DV/DA in iTunes and you get zero dropouts. I have people letting Apple know about this issue, so hopefully we'll see some resolve in the future, but for now the MA/Vudu way works for the majority of the titles I have and I don't take a hit in quality (I mainly use MA).


We unfortunately don't get MA here in the UK; and I think pretty much everything that was UV related has died here. The only Itunes content I have I bought for testing these odd issues with ATV (DV and 24.000p - oh the dedication to the cause... haha) - for me the bigger annoyance was Netflix titles like Iron Fist. My own workaround is for the ATV4k to go straight to the AVR - I dislike it on principle but it circumvents the issue for me and doesn't seem problematic.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> We unfortunately don't get MA here in the UK; and I think pretty much everything that was UV related has died here. The only Itunes content I have I bought for testing these odd issues with ATV (DV and 24.000p - oh the dedication to the cause... haha) - for me the bigger annoyance was Netflix titles like Iron Fist. My own workaround is for the ATV4k to go straight to the AVR - I dislike it on principle but it circumvents the issue for me and doesn't seem problematic.


Weird, I have no audio drops at all with Netflix titles that are DV/DA. I get it quite often with iTunes titles. I do get the weird frame drop thing from Netflix when they are changing frame rate though.


----------



## bobof

t1msu said:


> Yeah maybe that is true. But it would be nice to apply a not visible amount of stretch (like 3% or so) so that less zoom is required.


I don't >think< you can do it with auto aspect as it switches between input and not output aspects, but you could always have two different output styles configured, and use the memory functions to switch between them. One with a bit of vertical stretch, one without. You just set the stretch as desired and then mask the overspill (I think) (maybe).


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Weird, I have no audio drops at all with Netflix titles that are DV/DA. I get it quite often with iTunes titles. I do get the weird frame drop thing from Netflix when they are changing frame rate though.


Iron Fist season 1 was fairly obvious, every 30s. Later on titles seemed to stop doing it, but I'd occasionally see it again on something so I just went via the AVR in the end. I think they've probably worked out what button to press on their encoder by now to not make content that is broken this way.


----------



## MOberhardt

Regards latency, I've seen 24ms mentioned here in the thread. Is that more or less across the board, if you are doing all the desired actions like DTM, upscaling 1080, LUT, etc? So if you wanted a simple setup with the Lumagen at the projector end of the room, you may or may not need to add a 24ms (or closets) on your AVR profile? Or does the lag vary?

Thanks


----------



## docrog

Both Manni and Nigel have posted photos of the Envy in their respective HTs. Game on!


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> I wouldn't be disappointed; I can't see it looking anything other than terrible. You only (kind of) get away with NLS horizontally as often people will be in the centre of the screen mostly. NLS across the height would lead to some very odd distorted views of things...
> 
> If you don't care for the original aspect just zoom the whole image a little; if it tends to cut heads off you can zoom and drop a bit.


Want to make those American football players look like Supermodels. Just like how supermodels look like football players with NLS, when ever they get near the edge of the screen.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Interesting. The interface to try and offer that to the user would be fun, I think it might just be better to support more 1D control points than customize them.


 Yes, it is fun.  
(although this is not autocalibration but a graphical front end for the Gamma-EQ)
















> Not sure if you realised that apparently LS now supports outputting the large custom gamma curve table that can be uploaded by Arve (only useful for JVC projectors). I plan to give it a go next time I do a calibration (which is probably overdue, but too much to watch at the moment...


You can export an 11 point gamma table from LightSpace and upload it with Autocal. You don't need the Arve tool for that. 
But that was not enough for me. So I have written a tool that can upload a VCGT-file with 256 points to a JVC projector.


----------



## mandragora

*AutoAspect ratio seems not working anymore ...*

Hello all, 

I meant to write this question e while ago but I've been travelling for work so no time for movies.

ANyway since my last firmware update (120419) the auto aspect ration switching seems to do not anymore and I've to set manually the right ration .
I haven't changes any other settings do you have an idea what I need to check and/or reset ?

thanks for the help, 

Ben


----------



## Eventidal

Kris Deering said:


> It has gotten to the point where more than 95% of what I watch is already 4K. I can't remember the last time I bought a movie (disc or streaming) that wasn't 4K and I don't have a cable box.


So you are rarely watching older movies? I have zero complaints about my UHD disc collection/4k content. 

But I have well over 3.000 Blu Rays. All I am trying is to make these shine. RC does a great job but I would love to see what the Radiance could do. 

The cable boxes unfortunately provide rarely true 4K in Europe. Maybe 5% of the content on Sky is 4K.

Sure, we don´t need upscaling/sharpness for 4K content. Nobody said that.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, it is fun.
> (although this is not autocalibration but a graphical front end for the Gamma-EQ)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can export an 11 point gamma table from LightSpace and upload it with Autocal. You don't need the Arve tool for that.
> But that was not enough for me. So I have written a tool that can upload a VCGT-file with 256 points to a JVC projector.


Ah OK, I actually thought did the big table not the small table. My mistake. Not sure what the point is of the 11pt curve.
Any chance you can share the tool for uploading the 256pt to the projector? Or is it a commercial development?
Do you find the results useful?

Tool looks cool by the way, looks like it has some interesting functions!


----------



## Kris Deering

Eventidal said:


> So you are rarely watching older movies? I have zero complaints about my UHD disc collection/4k content.
> 
> But I have well over 3.000 Blu Rays. All I am trying is to make these shine. RC does a great job but I would love to see what the Radiance could do.
> 
> The cable boxes unfortunately provide rarely true 4K in Europe. Maybe 5% of the content on Sky is 4K.
> 
> Sure, we don´t need upscaling/sharpness for 4K content. Nobody said that.


I'd say non-4K content represents somewhere around 5-10% of my viewing. I have somewhere around 1000 Blu-ray discs, but I only have so much viewing time so I tend to watch new content, and I'm only buying 4K for that. I can't even remember the last normal Blu-ray I bought TBH. And for when I watch an older BD, the scaling in the Lumagen looks fine. I don't have cable in my house, I use streaming for anything else and most streaming boxes are outputting 4K regardless, so you don't have a lot of option there. But I realize I am not a typical usage case, so I completely understand the draw of better and better scaling and image processing for those that want and need it.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Kris Deering said:


> I'd say non-4K content represents somewhere around 5-10% of my viewing. I have somewhere around 1000 Blu-ray discs, but I only have so much viewing time so I tend to watch new content, and I'm only buying 4K for that. I can't even remember the last normal Blu-ray I bought TBH. And for when I watch an older BD, the scaling in the Lumagen looks fine. I don't have cable in my house, I use streaming for anything else and most streaming boxes are outputting 4K regardless, so you don't have a lot of option there. But I realize I am not a typical usage case, so I completely understand the draw of better and better scaling and image processing for those that want and need it.


I would get rid of cable, except my wife uses it for her shows. I go months without watching a cable channel.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> Any chance you can share the tool for uploading the 256pt to the projector?


You have a PM




> Do you find the results useful?


If you upload a gamma table, it is like using a 1D-LUT. I think it is useful for those that don't have a LUT holder. But it does not help for the special HDR picture modes (Frame Adapt etc.).


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> I'd say non-4K content represents somewhere around 5-10% of my viewing. I have somewhere around 1000 Blu-ray discs, but I only have so much viewing time so I tend to watch new content, and I'm only buying 4K for that. I can't even remember the last normal Blu-ray I bought TBH. And for when I watch an older BD, the scaling in the Lumagen looks fine. I don't have cable in my house, I use streaming for anything else and most streaming boxes are outputting 4K regardless, so you don't have a lot of option there. But I realize I am not a typical usage case, so I completely understand the draw of better and better scaling and image processing for those that want and need it.


Blu-rays can look outstanding upscaled with the Lumagen. I watch lots of them, since I have 460 of them. In fact, I just watched " Parasite " on Blu-ray. Looked great.


----------



## Eventidal

Craig Peer said:


> Blu-rays can look outstanding upscaled with the Lumagen. I watch lots of them, since I have 460 of them. In fact, I just watched " Parasite " on Blu-ray. Looked great.


And it might even get better...


----------



## dgkula

Mike Garrett said:


> I would get rid of cable, except my wife uses it for her shows. I go months without watching a cable channel.


We bought a terrestrial antenna and an HDHomerun for my wife's TV shows. 
Running simultaneously with cable until my next cable renewal ... no issues so far!


----------



## DannyBoy73

Mike Garrett said:


> I would get rid of cable, except my wife uses it for her shows. I go months without watching a cable channel.


I've managed to wean my wife off all "live" tv / channel style boxes. We only have IP based TV, Netflix, Amazon etc.. works very well.


----------



## Craig Peer

Eventidal said:


> And it might even get better...


I know there are a bunch of improvements / upgrades coming. Can't wait !


----------



## MOberhardt

MOberhardt said:


> Regards latency, I've seen 24ms mentioned here in the thread. Is that more or less across the board, if you are doing all the desired actions like DTM, upscaling 1080, LUT, etc? So if you wanted a simple setup with the Lumagen at the projector end of the room, you may or may not need to add a 24ms (or closets) on your AVR profile? Or does the lag vary?
> 
> Thanks


Anyone know, thanks?


----------



## giomania

I have not added any delays, except for the NVidia Shield TV Pro (2015), which I added via the device UI. I have an OPPO UDP-203 that I use to watch most material via 1:1 MKVs stored on my NAS.

So I guess that would mean it might be source dependent.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mike Garrett

DannyBoy73 said:


> I've managed to wean my wife off all "live" tv / channel style boxes. We only have IP based TV, Netflix, Amazon etc.. works very well.


For the last year or so, 99% of my viewing has been IP. My wife is 85% cable.


----------



## fatherom

Convinced the family to do a double feature: Frozen and Frozen II. The 885es projector coupled with the Lumagen's DTM made for some amazing visuals (velvet batcave with 121" at 2.39:1 (my screen is a 128" 16:9 but has masking panels)). 

The sound was decent too, even for Disney. Frozen II especially had some nice ceiling effects. Decent bass, too. 

There were several times I got chills (pun intended) for either video or audio moments. 

Even though I still need a calibration, it was a night of viewing like this that reminds me how much I love this hobby and how happy I am to have a setup like this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eventidal

@Jim

As a new Paladin DCR user - would you still consider to implement geometry correction / warping or similar to the radiance pro? This would be an awesome feature!


----------



## Kris Deering

Eventidal said:


> @Jim
> 
> As a new Paladin DCR user - would you still consider to implement geometry correction / warping or similar to the radiance pro? This would be an awesome feature!


Hmm. You really shouldn't need it with the DCR if you have the recommended throw distance. Do you know what your ratio is? Even near the lower limit (Panamorph states 1.4) there should only be a minimal amount of curvature to the outer edge of the image and it shouldn't really be noticeable except with test patterns.


----------



## docrog

MDesigns said:


> If you use the Lumagen to tone map the image, why is the NX7 reporting any nits levels when it should be receiving tone mapped "SDR"? Or is this the feature in the lumagen to "turn on the hdr flag" with some random nits number to make the jvc change to hdr picture mode? That would explain why it is always 1000 nits. I think you should use the Lumagen to check source info. It probably has that kind of feature?


Sorry it's taken so long to respond to your post; I somehow lost track of it. 

Yes, there is a Radiance Pro pathway to activate the HDR flag when outputting SDR BT.2020: Menu -> Output -> CMS's -> Rec 2020 -> Colorspace -> Output Colorspace -> Colorspace SDR2020 -> HDR Flag "ON". This then automatically causes my NX7 to select the predefined HDR mode of my choice, in this case, the dedicated user HDR BT.2020 (with filter) which was added by Craig Rounds when setting up & calibrating my Lumagen & NX7. I'm unable to explain why it *always* shows 1000/400 nits for HDR in the JVC info menu (when receiving SDR BT.2020) since HDR content without defined nits metadata (ie, Disney UHD) does not show any information on that same JVC info line. The Lumagen always confirms that my output is HDR BT.2020 in an SDR container. I hope this answers your question.


----------



## fatherom

I realize this is a bit of blasphemy, but I'm intrigued by the thread where people are forcing their Apple TV or Oppo 203 to send out dolby vision, even on sdr content. 

I think I know the answer, but what will the lumagen do if it's fed a dolby vision signal? I would love to try this out, just to play around with it. I realize it's not "reference". 

Is there a way (aside from buying an hd fury device) to send dolby vision from something like the Oppo and have the lumagen see it as hdr and apply dtm?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KarlKlammer

fatherom said:


> I realize this is a bit of blasphemy, but I'm intrigued by the thread where people are forcing their Apple TV or Oppo 203 to send out dolby vision, even on sdr content.
> 
> I think I know the answer, but what will the lumagen do if it's fed a dolby vision signal? I would love to try this out, just to play around with it. I realize it's not "reference".
> 
> Is there a way (aside from buying an hd fury device) to send dolby vision from something like the Oppo and have the lumagen see it as hdr and apply dtm?


First of all, it is not possible to feed a regular DV signal to a Radiance. You can only force the player into the player led DolbyVision mode (DV profile 5) by injecting a special EDID. This results in some kind of tone mapping on the player side and a HDR10 signal. The Radiance is not able to inject this EDID. So you have to use a HDfury device.
I did play around with it. If you own a Radiance Pro and use ADTM, there is no advantage.


----------



## fatherom

KarlKlammer said:


> First of all, it is not possible to feed a regular DV signal to a Radiance. You can only force the player into the player led DolbyVision mode (DV profile 5) by injecting a special EDID. This results in some kind of tone mapping on the player side and a HDR10 signal. The Radiance is not able to inject this EDID. So you have to use a HDfury device.
> I did play around with it. If you own a Radiance Pro and use ADTM, there is no advantage.


I do own a Radiance and use ADTM. But that only works on 4K discs.

Again, I realize it's not reference, but apparently allowing the Oppo to convert even regular blu-rays to Dolby Vision can yield some interesting results. Since the Radiance will only apply DTM to HDR input signals, I was wondering what I would need to do in order to have the Lumagen apply DTM to regular blu-rays, essentially (by forcing the Oppo to DV and having the Radiance take in an HDR signal).


----------



## KarlKlammer

fatherom said:


> Again, I realize it's not reference, but apparently allowing the Oppo to convert even regular blu-rays to Dolby Vision can yield some interesting results. Since the Radiance will only apply DTM to HDR input signals, I was wondering what I would need to do in order to have the Lumagen apply DTM to regular blu-rays, essentially (by forcing the Oppo to DV and having the Radiance take in an HDR signal).


Like I said: until Lumagen allows us to upload custom EDIDs into the Radiance (something that I would really appreciate), you have to use a HDfury device to force the player into DV profile 5. Even then not every player converts HDR10 or SDR sources to DV profile 5.
When I think about all the conversions being done (SDR -> DV profile 5 -> HDR10 -> Radiance ADTM), I can surely imagine seeing 'interesting results'.


----------



## audioguy

I have DTM on my Lumagen and until this past weekend, really did not 100% appreciate what is does for HDR images. I was re-calibrating a Trinnov in a a client's theater who does have a Lumagen and the Sony 995 Laser projector (and Panamorph Lens). He, however, does not have the DTM software installed (long story) and as I begin to test out the Trinnov calibration, played some HDR movie clips that I was familiar with from his Kaleidescape . I could not get over how dark, dull and lifeless everything looked. The last time I was in his room, I had not installed DTM on my Lumagen so thought his image looked stunning. I will add DTM to his PJ next time I am there.

What a great product.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I have DTM on my Lumagen and until this past weekend, really did not 100% appreciate what is does for HDR images. I was re-calibrating a Trinnov in a a client's theater who does have a Lumagen and the Sony 995 Laser projector (and Panamorph Lens). He, however, does not have the DTM software installed (long story) and as I begin to test out the Trinnov calibration, played some HDR movie clips that I was familiar with from his Kaleidescape . I could not get over how dark, dull and lifeless everything looked. The last time I was in his room, I had not installed DTM on my Lumagen so thought his image looked stunning. I will add DTM to his PJ next time I am there.
> 
> What a great product.


The current Lumagen DTM is absolutely indispensable. It's fantastic. In my setup, every movie looks great !


----------



## Eventidal

Kris Deering said:


> Hmm. You really shouldn't need it with the DCR if you have the recommended throw distance. Do you know what your ratio is? Even near the lower limit (Panamorph states 1.4) there should only be a minimal amount of curvature to the outer edge of the image and it shouldn't really be noticeable except with test patterns.


True, but I really like my curved screen. Even though it´s not recommend for the DCR it would be a fantastic option.


----------



## Kris Deering

Eventidal said:


> True, but I really like my curved screen. Even though it´s not recommend for the DCR it would be a fantastic option.


Ah, so you are the opposite situation where the screen is the issue, not the lens. Gotcha. What projector are you using? If you are using one of the new JVCs and have the older firmware, you could use the pincushion function.


----------



## Eventidal

Kris Deering said:


> Ah, so you are the opposite situation where the screen is the issue, not the lens. Gotcha. What projector are you using? If you are using one of the new JVCs and have the older firmware, you could use the pincushion function.


I own the Sony 995ES, fantastic projector, but unfortunately no pincushion correction.


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## Craig Peer

Any new firmware updates on the horizon I wonder ?


----------



## thrang

Craig Peer said:


> Any new firmware updates on the horizon I wonder ?


My understanding is hopefully soon (perhaps some zone-based analysis for improved DTM performance?)...


----------



## dlinsley

Craig Peer said:


> Any new firmware updates on the horizon I wonder ?


Isn't this the time of year Jim goes on a cruise to escape the (seemingly) eternal dreariness of the PNW? Maybe he chained Pat to the desk - we can but hope


----------



## Mike Garrett

fatherom said:


> I do own a Radiance and use ADTM. But that only works on 4K discs.
> 
> Again, I realize it's not reference, but apparently allowing the Oppo to convert even regular blu-rays to Dolby Vision can yield some interesting results. Since the Radiance will only apply DTM to HDR input signals, I was wondering what I would need to do in order to have the Lumagen apply DTM to regular blu-rays, essentially (by forcing the Oppo to DV and having the Radiance take in an HDR signal).


If you are using an Oppo, is it not restricted to Rec709 color space? Compared to Lumagen DTM with wider color space, LDV can't compete.


----------



## fatherom

Mike Garrett said:


> If you are using an Oppo, is it not restricted to Rec709 color space? Compared to Lumagen DTM with wider color space, LDV can't compete.



That may be true (had forgotten about that). I also have a Sony x800m2. 

But aside from that, I'm slightly confused by your response. You said lumagen dtm with wider color space is better (I agree). But I can't apply dtm using the lumagen on anything but hdr sources (unless I'm missing something obvious). I was just wanting to experiment with the Oppo sending out dolby vision for sdr sources (regular blurays) and sewing what the lumagen would do for tone mapping that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

Up until a few days ago, in my room, Plex running on the Nvidia Shield did not allow pass through of 1080P sources - as all were up-converted. That has now been fixed and a few days ago, I watched my first 1080P material since that change.

Prior to this, I thought my 1080P movies looking pretty great, but I must confess I was blown away by the improvement. Quite frankly I was not expecting such a positive change. 
I still have LOTS of great 1080P movies and, on occasion, still buy them. Nice to know that I will get even more enjoyment out of all of these movies

Yet another great reason to own this product: Great up-scaling; DTM; Auto Aspect Detection; Amazing product support - and company longevity that gives additional comfort in making this purchase decision.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> Up until a few days ago, in my room, Plex running on the Nvidia Shield did not allow pass through of 1080P sources - as all were up-converted. That has now been fixed and a few days ago, I watched my first 1080P material since that change.
> 
> Prior to this, I thought my 1080P movies looking pretty great, but I must confess I was blown away by the improvement. Quite frankly I was not expecting such a positive change.
> I still have LOTS of great 1080P movies and, on occasion, still buy them. Nice to know that I will get even more enjoyment out of all of these movies
> 
> Yet another great reason to own this product: Great up-scaling; DTM; Auto Aspect Detection; Amazing product support - and company longevity that gives additional comfort in making this purchase decision.


If you hadn't changed the default settings, you might be watching Darbee now where before you weren't, which can significantly change the image. The default is Darbee enabled for 1080p sources, but there is no Darbee for 4K sources.


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## audioguy

bobof said:


> If you hadn't changed the default settings, you might be watching Darbee now where before you weren't, which can significantly change the image. The default is Darbee enabled for 1080p sources, but there is no Darbee for 4K sources.


Thanks for letting me know. I will need to find where the Darbee settings are and do some comparisons. I use to use some limited Darbee settings on a BR player previously!!


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## docrog

audioguy said:


> Thanks for letting me know. I will need to find where the Darbee settings are and do some comparisons. I use to use some limited Darbee settings on a BR player previously!!


Push the RIGHT arrow on the remote. It will bring up the Darbee settings. It's easily disabled, but I prefer it to be set at 30 for all legacy 2D content and 40 for all 3D content.


----------



## giomania

audioguy said:


> Up until a few days ago, in my room, Plex running on the Nvidia Shield did not allow pass through of 1080P sources - as all were up-converted. That has now been fixed and a few days ago, I watched my first 1080P material since that change.
> 
> 
> 
> Prior to this, I thought my 1080P movies looking pretty great, but I must confess I was blown away by the improvement. Quite frankly I was not expecting such a positive change.
> 
> I still have LOTS of great 1080P movies and, on occasion, still buy them. Nice to know that I will get even more enjoyment out of all of these movies
> 
> 
> 
> Yet another great reason to own this product: Great up-scaling; DTM; Auto Aspect Detection; Amazing product support - and company longevity that gives additional comfort in making this purchase decision.




I am months behind on the Shield thread, so thanks for posting; time to update if they implemented source direct.

I have only used my OPPO to play the media files off my NAS because I know it is pure source direct.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ShaharT

What's a good sensor/software package to buy for a Lumagen owner who wants to calibrate the pj/lumagen on his own?
I've had a professional calibrator optimize everything 6 months ago, but I'd like to have the ability to do this myself.


----------



## riddle

ShaharT said:


> What's a good sensor/software package to buy for a Lumagen owner who wants to calibrate the pj/lumagen on his own?
> I've had a professional calibrator optimize everything 6 months ago, but I'd like to have the ability to do this myself.



Hi, its depen how much you want invest to hw and whats is your skill. For full calibration Lumagen Radiance PRO you will needs have LightSpace software who can calibrate 3D LUT for both HDR and SDR. The next thing you i think needs is a colorimeter and a spectrometer (X-Rite i1Pro2 and X-Rite i1Display).Spectrometer i1Pro2 profiles color for i1Display. You can look at Classifieds > Video Source Items .

Thanks


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## riddle

Audio Video Show Prague 2020 (28.2-29.2)
photos from the preparatory work of one showroom where will be sound system from Emotiva 9.2.6 with JVC N7 projector, Lumagen Radiance PRO and etc... So if some one are in Prague you are welcomed


----------



## tspotorno

Hopefully a quick question. I upgraded my VW1000 to a VW5000 some time ago. When I got the 5000, my son wanted the 1000 for his future home theater room. Well, finally after a long time, we got it installed and he ordered a KScape Strato...

Been a long time since I operated the 1000 and when we hooked up the Strato it would not play UHD movies he had downloaded...

We hooked up an old HD Fury I had and it will play the movie but it looks washed out.

So question, if he orders a Radiance Pro, will it allow him to watch UHD movies, or should we just sell the unit and move towards a newer projector that supports UHD directly?


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Up until a few days ago, in my room, Plex running on the Nvidia Shield did not allow pass through of 1080P sources - as all were up-converted. That has now been fixed and a few days ago, I watched my first 1080P material since that change.
> *
> Prior to this, I thought my 1080P movies looking pretty great, but I must confess I was blown away by the improvement. Quite frankly I was not expecting such a positive change.
> I still have LOTS of great 1080P movies and, on occasion, still buy them. Nice to know that I will get even more enjoyment out of all of these movies*
> 
> Yet another great reason to own this product: Great up-scaling; DTM; Auto Aspect Detection; Amazing product support - and company longevity that gives additional comfort in making this purchase decision.


I have 475 Blu-rays - most of which will never see a 4K remaster. But most of them look fantastic upscaled by the Lumagen to 4K. And the best might look as good or better than the worst 4K discs out there. Watch " The Pacific " on Blu-ray - it looks excellent ( lots of other examples too ).


----------



## JFR0317

tspotorno said:


> Hopefully a quick question. I upgraded my VW1000 to a VW5000 some time ago. When I got the 5000, my son wanted the 1000 for his future home theater room. Well, finally after a long time, we got it installed and he ordered a KScape Strato...
> 
> Been a long time since I operated the 1000 and when we hooked up the Strato it would not play UHD movies he had downloaded...
> 
> We hooked up an old HD Fury I had and it will play the movie but it looks washed out.
> 
> So question, if he orders a Radiance Pro, will it allow him to watch UHD movies, or should we just sell the unit and move towards a newer projector that supports UHD directly?


I am using a VW1100 in one of my systems with a Radiance Pro and a Strato. It actually works pretty well with UHD HDR content from the Strato, Apple TV, and OPPO 203.


----------



## tspotorno

JFR0317 said:


> I am using a VW1100 in one of my systems with a Radiance Pro and a Strato. It actually works pretty well with UHD HDR content from the Strato, Apple TV, and OPPO 203.


Fantastic news, he owns pretty much the same equipment. Thanks.


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## Mike Garrett

JFR0317 said:


> I am using a VW1100 in one of my systems with a Radiance Pro and a Strato. It actually works pretty well with UHD HDR content from the Strato, Apple TV, and OPPO 203.





tspotorno said:


> Fantastic news, he owns pretty much the same equipment. Thanks.


I guess the first question to ask, is the VW1000 an upgraded version where a new board with HDCP2.2 was added? Basically making your VW1000 into a VW1100? It was a $2,500 upgrade. If not, that is your problem and you will need an HD Fury device.

Added
Never mind, your VW1000 Was upgraded.


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## riddle

Audio Video Show Prague 2020 just ended a few hours ago. At on this event arrived some several thousand people. They all was excited about Lumagen Radiance PRO how its works. When my friend will sends me some photos i will post it here. I realy like how Lumagen Radiance PRO works...


----------



## JustMike

tspotorno said:


> Hopefully a quick question. I upgraded my VW1000 to a VW5000 some time ago. When I got the 5000, my son wanted the 1000 for his future home theater room. Well, finally after a long time, we got it installed and he ordered a KScape Strato...
> 
> Been a long time since I operated the 1000 and when we hooked up the Strato it would not play UHD movies he had downloaded...
> 
> We hooked up an old HD Fury I had and it will play the movie but it looks washed out.
> 
> So question, if he orders a Radiance Pro, will it allow him to watch UHD movies, or should we just sell the unit and move towards a newer projector that supports UHD directly?


Kaleidescape's movie store has two different kinds of 4K movies. Movies that are "4K UHD" are 4K, standard dynamic range movies. These should play just fine on the 1000ES. Movies that are "4K HDR" are 4K, high dynamic range movies. Since the 1000ES does not support high dynamic range, these can't be played on the 1000ES without assistance. 

When you look at a movie cover on the Kaleidescape movie store, it may have the "UHD" badge, the "HDR" badge, or both. If it has the UHD badge, the movie is "4K UHD" as described above. If it's "HDR", it's 4K HDR. If it has both badges, that means that both versions of the movie are available, and you just need to download the correct one. If you have connected the Strato to the 1000ES, the Strato should detect that the connected projector can't do HDR and relay this information to the store, so that it will automatically select the UHD versions for you for download, but you can override this and select manually if you need to. You may need to do that at least for awhile because the Fury may have confused things.

The washed-out appearance you mention when using the HD Fury suggests that it's just sending the HDR content to the projector as though it were regular SDR content. This will get you picture, but it's not really watchable as you've noticed.

The Radiance Pro can tone-map the HDR content so that it will actually look acceptable on the 1000ES. The only shortcoming is that you may be a bit lacking in light levels, but if you use an appropriate screen size and gain, you'll probably do okay.

I would suggest that you download the 4K UHD (standard dynamic range) movies when they're available. Some studios only offer 4K HDR, though, and for those the Pro should do a good job.


----------



## SJHT

And the 4K UHD (non HDR) versions can play fine on older 1080P HDCP 1.x displays. I use to play them in our family room Strato zone prior to upgrading that display... no Lumagen Pro required. SJ


----------



## jrp

We are working on another Adaptive DTM update. This one splits the screen into zones so a flash (e.g. explosion) that has a small area on the screen does not get detected as a scene change when it should not.

As anyone who is using the Radiance Pro Adaptive DTM knows, it is working great already. However, there are a couple scenes with a small area flash that can be detected as a scene change, which changes the transfer function, with the current release and the zone based detection should improve these scenes.

The zone based algorithm is taking longer than we originally thought to get dialed in. So we do not have a schedule for the next release.


----------



## jrp

Eventidal said:


> @Jim
> 
> As a new Paladin DCR user - would you still consider to implement geometry correction / warping or similar to the radiance pro? This would be an awesome feature!


We have discussed the possibility of some barrel/pincushion in the horizontal direction (only). It is on the "maybe" list, but is not a high priority for us at the moment. I do not think it is really needed except for a curved screen.

We have a JVC RS4500 in our demo theater with the Radiance Pro output set to 4096x2160, and am using a Paladin DCR lens right at the minimum recommended throw-ratio (we are at 1.42). There is a very small amount of barrel distortion, but it is not visible in my tests with real material. So very little incentive to spend time on this.


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> We have discussed the possibility of some barrel/pincushion in the horizontal direction (only). It is on the "maybe" list, but is not a high priority for us at the moment. I do not think it is really needed except for a curved screen.
> 
> We have a JVC RS4500 in our demo theater with the Radiance Pro output set to 4096x2160, and am using a Paladin DCR lens right at the minimum recommended throw-ratio (we are at 1.42). There is a very small amount of barrel distortion, but it is not visible in my tests with real material. So very little incentive to spend time on this.


I understand, just wished I could keep my curved screen withe DCR. Is this difficult to implement? I am willing to wait for my DCR install..

Also there is quite some other folks with anamorphic lenses that wait for this feature...


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Up until a few days ago, in my room, Plex running on the Nvidia Shield did not allow pass through of 1080P sources - as all were up-converted. That has now been fixed and a few days ago, I watched my first 1080P material since that change.
> 
> Prior to this, I thought my 1080P movies looking pretty great, but I must confess I was blown away by the improvement. Quite frankly I was not expecting such a positive change.
> I still have LOTS of great 1080P movies and, on occasion, still buy them. Nice to know that I will get even more enjoyment out of all of these movies
> 
> Yet another great reason to own this product: Great up-scaling; DTM; Auto Aspect Detection; Amazing product support - and company longevity that gives additional comfort in making this purchase decision.


Speaking of upscaling, there are times when the upscaled Blu-ray looks better than the 4K UHD Blu-ray. One example - Oblivion. I like the movie a lot, but they didn't do a good job on the 4K version. The Blu-ray looks better upscaled !


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> We are working on another Adaptive DTM update. This one splits the screen into zones so a flash (e.g. explosion) that has a small area on the screen does not get detected as a scene change when it should not.
> 
> As anyone who is using the Radiance Pro Adaptive DTM knows, it is working great already. However, there are a couple scenes with a small area flash that can be detected as a scene change, which changes the transfer function, with the current release and the zone based detection should improve these scenes.
> 
> The zone based algorithm is taking longer than we originally thought to get dialed in. So we do not have a schedule for the next release.


Thanks for that heads up, Jim; do you have any likely release date for that update? A question: do you anticipate working on any further enhancement of 1080p -> UHD upscaling in future firmware updates? Much appreciated!


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks for that heads up, Jim; do you have any likely release date for that update? A question: do you anticipate working on any further enhancement of 1080p -> UHD upscaling in future firmware updates? Much appreciated!


No schedule on the zone-based DTM release. It might be a few days, or it might be a couple weeks. Always hard to predict. Today Patrick told me the Zone based DTM was working very well now. So hopefully soon (but that is *not* a schedule). It depends on how "design clean-up" and "FPGA synthesis" goes.

=== 

The next major effort is pipeline enhancement. First is working to increase the entire pipeline depth to 12-bits and higher (front end is currently 10-bits and back end is 12-bits and higher). After this, edge enhancements and possibly scaling enhancements will be worked on as well. Definitely no schedule on this as it is a large project.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> No schedule on the zone-based DTM release. It might be a few days, or it might be a couple weeks. Always hard to predict. Today Patrick told me the Zone based DTM was working very well now. So hopefully soon (but that is *not* a schedule). It depends on how "design clean-up" and "FPGA synthesis" goes.
> 
> 
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> The next major effort is pipeline enhancement. First is working to increase the entire pipeline depth to 12-bits and higher (front end is currently 10-bits and back end is 12-bits and higher). After this, edge enhancements and possibly scaling enhancements will be worked on as well. Definitely no schedule on this as it is a large project.




The improvement with latest DTM was outstanding with minimal effect that follows here post it i can’t imagine how the lumagen will be after raise the depth and edge enhancement and the last one I think will be the hit of the year 2020 

Will done gays  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## riddle

Some photos from Europe event Audio Video Show 2020 Prague www.audio-video-show.cz (Emotiva with Dolby Atmos 9.2.6 and RIHA audio, Vision 235 GreyCAT ARL screen, Lumagen Radiance PRO 4446, OPPO 205/Panasonic 9000 and D Glasses HiShock


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## gadgetfreaky

audioguy said:


> Up until a few days ago, in my room, Plex running on the Nvidia Shield did not allow pass through of 1080P sources - as all were up-converted. That has now been fixed and a few days ago, I watched my first 1080P material since that change.
> 
> Prior to this, I thought my 1080P movies looking pretty great, but I must confess I was blown away by the improvement. Quite frankly I was not expecting such a positive change.
> I still have LOTS of great 1080P movies and, on occasion, still buy them. Nice to know that I will get even more enjoyment out of all of these movies
> 
> Yet another great reason to own this product: Great up-scaling; DTM; Auto Aspect Detection; Amazing product support - and company longevity that gives additional comfort in making this purchase decision.


wait, what? plex app now allows 1080p on nvidia to force nvidia to show at 1080p? so you are saying upscaling on nvidia ai isn't as good as lumagen, that's amazing.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> wait, what? plex app now allows 1080p on nvidia to force nvidia to show at 1080p? so you are saying upscaling on nvidia ai isn't as good as lumagen, that's amazing.


Comment I've seen on the NVIDIA AI is that it is oversharpening even at lowest setting. I had considered buying one and haven't bothered on the basis of that feedback (and all the chuff that still needs beta firmwares installing to get correct colorspaces etc).


----------



## Eventidal

jrp said:


> The next major effort is pipeline enhancement. First is working to increase the entire pipeline depth to 12-bits and higher (front end is currently 10-bits and back end is 12-bits and higher). After this, edge enhancements and possibly scaling enhancements will be worked on as well. Definitely no schedule on this as it is a large project.


Nice! The pro just keeps getting better and better over time! Thanks, Jim!


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## SJHT

What about PIP/POP? Still waiting......


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> The next major effort is pipeline enhancement. First is working to increase the entire pipeline depth to 12-bits and higher (front end is currently 10-bits and back end is 12-bits and higher). After this, edge enhancements and possibly scaling enhancements will be worked on as well. Definitely no schedule on this as it is a large project.


Jim - [MENTION=7726137]@Krisdeering 
How would the pipeline enhance help for someone with a VW5000 Sony projector? 
Edge enhancements I get that (would be personal preference).
Very happy to own a Pro - best addition this year for me.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Ash Sharma said:


> Jim - [MENTION=7726137]@Krisdeering
> How would the pipeline enhance help for someone with a VW5000 Sony projector?
> Edge enhancements I get that (would be personal preference).
> Very happy to own a Pro - best addition this year for me.


Ash, you beat me to asking the identical question!


----------



## bearcat2002

I wonder how many zones we are talking about with the update to come.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wayne Z

I have recently installed the latest software, and it is a big improvement. I do wonder what some of the controls are all about. What does “Low Ratio” mean and what does it do? Same questions about “Dyn Pad”, and “DeSat”.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> Jim - [MENTION=7726137]@Krisdeering
> How would the pipeline enhance help for someone with a VW5000 Sony projector?
> Edge enhancements I get that (would be personal preference).
> Very happy to own a Pro - best addition this year for me.


It would help with any projector. Pipeline precision means better processing that makes better use of the bits available. From my experience with the Sony 5000ES, most of the shortcomings I see in image quality stem from the projector, not the source materials.


----------



## giomania

Wayne Z said:


> I have recently installed the latest software, and it is a big improvement. I do wonder what some of the controls are all about. What does “Low Ratio” mean and what does it do? Same questions about “Dyn Pad”, and “DeSat”.



The “Unofficial” guide answers these questions; I am almost done including the information for the most recent changes.

For Lumagen Radiance Pro owners, see the below post for my Setup & Calibration Guide, which contains a lot of useful information.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-91.html#post57974522


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## otismojo

This is a repost from the Sony 885 forum, but there isn’t much activity there so I’m reposting it here. 

I’m looking for advice on my next upgrade. 

I have a Sony 885 (newest firmware) projecting thru a Panamorph DCR lens on to an older Firehawk G4 screen. Oppo 205 bluray player. Recently calibrated by Chad B. 

Screen is a motorized 2.35:1 130” diagonal with motorized masking. Picture is bright and I’m mostly happy with it. Darks and contrast could be a little better thus my question. 

I’m trying to decide what would be a better value for my picture?Should I upgrade to a better screen like a studiotek 100 or get a Lumagen Pro?

I know it’s a funny question and I’m pretty well versed on the technologies, but which would give me a better picture? Does a better screen make more sense or does adding dynamic tone mapping?

I have a light controlled room (no ambient light, but ceiling also not painted black either) and more than plenty of brightness for HDR especially with my 1.2 or 1.3 gain screen. I’d like better contrast and tone mapping for HDR and am trying to decide if that comes with a better screen (ST100) or dynamic tone mapping. 

It’s obviously easier to just buy a Lumagen and get it calibrated than to remove my motorized screen and change it. Can my motorized screen even be changed? Most of my viewing is HDR on Blu-ray. 

Anyone with an opinion?


----------



## skylarlove1999

otismojo said:


> This is a repost from the Sony 885 forum, but there isn’t much activity there so I’m reposting it here.
> 
> I’m looking for advice on my next upgrade.
> 
> I have a Sony 885 (newest firmware) projecting thru a Panamorph DCR lens on to an older Firehawk G4 screen. Oppo 205 bluray player. Recently calibrated by Chad B.
> 
> Screen is a motorized 2.35:1 130” diagonal with motorized masking. Picture is bright and I’m mostly happy with it. Darks and contrast could be a little better thus my question.
> 
> I’m trying to decide what would be a better value for my picture?Should I upgrade to a better screen like a studiotek 100 or get a Lumagen Pro?
> 
> I know it’s a funny question and I’m pretty well versed on the technologies, but which would give me a better picture? Does a better screen make more sense or does adding dynamic tone mapping?
> 
> I have a light controlled room (no ambient light, but ceiling also not painted black either) and more than plenty of brightness for HDR especially with my 1.2 or 1.3 gain screen. I’d like better contrast and tone mapping for HDR and am trying to decide if that comes with a better screen (ST100) or dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> It’s obviously easier to just buy a Lumagen and get it calibrated than to remove my motorized screen and change it. Can my motorized screen even be changed? Most of my viewing is HDR on Blu-ray.
> 
> Anyone with an opinion?


Have you considered a madVR Envy as your video processor?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=47413&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## scrowe

otismojo said:


> This is a repost from the Sony 885 forum, but there isn’t much activity there so I’m reposting it here.
> 
> I’m looking for advice on my next upgrade.
> 
> I have a Sony 885 (newest firmware) projecting thru a Panamorph DCR lens on to an older Firehawk G4 screen. Oppo 205 bluray player. Recently calibrated by Chad B.
> 
> Screen is a motorized 2.35:1 130” diagonal with motorized masking. Picture is bright and I’m mostly happy with it. Darks and contrast could be a little better thus my question.
> 
> I’m trying to decide what would be a better value for my picture?Should I upgrade to a better screen like a studiotek 100 or get a Lumagen Pro?
> 
> I know it’s a funny question and I’m pretty well versed on the technologies, but which would give me a better picture? Does a better screen make more sense or does adding dynamic tone mapping?
> 
> I have a light controlled room (no ambient light, but ceiling also not painted black either) and more than plenty of brightness for HDR especially with my 1.2 or 1.3 gain screen. I’d like better contrast and tone mapping for HDR and am trying to decide if that comes with a better screen (ST100) or dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> It’s obviously easier to just buy a Lumagen and get it calibrated than to remove my motorized screen and change it. Can my motorized screen even be changed? Most of my viewing is HDR on Blu-ray.
> 
> Anyone with an opinion?


I don’t have any experience with your hardware combination but I would say that adding a HDR dynamic tone-mapping solution, when you watch a lot of HDR Blu-ray is the very best upgrade you could make. Especially on top, if you have streaming devices as well delivering HDR content, which you didn’t mention. The Lumagen has a lot more options for improvement and calibration, as well as help for your lens/aspect setup.

It’s not the only option for DTM, as someone has pointed out, but Lumagen can be purchased now, has a well-earned track record of reliability, proven support and continually-improving features, and is well reviewed and used by actual installers, calibrators and owners contributing to this thread.


----------



## Eventidal

otismojo said:


> This is a repost from the Sony 885 forum, but there isn’t much activity there so I’m reposting it here.
> 
> I’m looking for advice on my next upgrade.
> 
> I have a Sony 885 (newest firmware) projecting thru a Panamorph DCR lens on to an older Firehawk G4 screen. Oppo 205 bluray player. Recently calibrated by Chad B.
> 
> Screen is a motorized 2.35:1 130” diagonal with motorized masking. Picture is bright and I’m mostly happy with it. Darks and contrast could be a little better thus my question.
> 
> I’m trying to decide what would be a better value for my picture?Should I upgrade to a better screen like a studiotek 100 or get a Lumagen Pro?
> 
> I know it’s a funny question and I’m pretty well versed on the technologies, but which would give me a better picture? Does a better screen make more sense or does adding dynamic tone mapping?
> 
> I have a light controlled room (no ambient light, but ceiling also not painted black either) and more than plenty of brightness for HDR especially with my 1.2 or 1.3 gain screen. I’d like better contrast and tone mapping for HDR and am trying to decide if that comes with a better screen (ST100) or dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> It’s obviously easier to just buy a Lumagen and get it calibrated than to remove my motorized screen and change it. Can my motorized screen even be changed? Most of my viewing is HDR on Blu-ray.
> 
> Anyone with an opinion?


I would definitely go with the Lumagen Pro. Great DTM for HDR and scaling capabilities (incl. nls stretching-masking-shrinking-blanking/aspect detection etc.) . Calibration features are fantastic and great updates (zone based HDR)/features (improved scaling/sharpness) on the way. 

Also it is a very reliable product with excellent support. 

I don´t think changing a screen would make that much of a difference...


----------



## skylarlove1999

scrowe said:


> It’s not the only option for DTM, as someone has pointed out, but Lumagen can be purchased now, has a well-earned track record of reliability, proven support and continually-improving features, and is well reviewed and used by actual installers, calibrators and owners contributing to this thread.


Locals only around here? Based upon your comments I would say so . LOL. Nigel of Arrow AV sold his Lumagen and is taking a madVR Envy to demo the Christie Eclipse projector . Just sayin. 


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> ....great updates....features (improved scaling/sharpness) on the way.


I'm curious as to why you've made this statement as fact since I believe that a recent post by @jrp indicated that these features were not among those upgrades *currently* being considered for the next firmware update.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> It would help with any projector. Pipeline precision means better processing that makes better use of the bits available. From my experience with the Sony 5000ES, most of the shortcomings I see in image quality stem from the projector, not the source materials.


Most of the past banding and posterization issues attributed to the 5000 have been eliminated with Radiance firmware updates. About 90% I would say.


----------



## A7mad78

thrang said:


> Most of the past banding and posterization issues attributed to the 5000 have been eliminated with Radiance firmware updates. About 90% I would say.




U mean the upcoming one ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

A7mad78 said:


> thrang said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the past banding and posterization issues attributed to the 5000 have been eliminated with Radiance firmware updates. About 90% I would say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U mean the upcoming one ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

No over the past six months or so... steady improvements though it was getting tiring that the 5000 was always blamed for every bit of it - simply not accurate in my experience


----------



## scrowe

skylarlove1999 said:


> Locals only around here? Based upon your comments I would say so . LOL. Nigel of Arrow AV sold his Lumagen and is taking a madVR Envy to demo the Christie Eclipse projector . Just sayin.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


And your own direct experience or expertise with either product is? ...


----------



## otismojo

scrowe said:


> I don’t have any experience with your hardware combination but I would say that adding a HDR dynamic tone-mapping solution, when you watch a lot of HDR Blu-ray is the very best upgrade you could make. Especially on top, if you have streaming devices as well delivering HDR content, which you didn’t mention. The Lumagen has a lot more options for improvement and calibration, as well as help for your lens/aspect setup.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not the only option for DTM, as someone has pointed out, but Lumagen can be purchased now, has a well-earned track record of reliability, proven support and continually-improving features, and is well reviewed and used by actual installers, calibrators and owners contributing to this thread.




I don’t need any aspect ratio fixes/improvements since it’s native to the projector using the DCR lens. 

I’d like to see the benefits of DTM, but trying to weigh its benefit over a better screen. Hoping to hear from someone who has made incremental changes and their effect. 

I’m likely going to just add the Lumagen just trying to justify the cost. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

otismojo said:


> I’m likely going to just add the Lumagen* just trying to justify the cost*.


"Justifying" cost and high end audio/video are mutually exclusive . If you want it and have the coin, buy it! In this particular case (Lumagen), the improvement is pretty monumental (and REALLY easy to see - just disable DTM) - but I (and others I know) have "justified" high end purchases with a much, much smaller improvement.


----------



## skylarlove1999

scrowe said:


> And your own direct experience or expertise with either product is? ...


The good old "if you haven't seen or had experience with it so you shouldn't be commenting" reply. LOL. 

I get it. I came into the Lumagen thread and suggested another video processor. All I did was suggest considering it and you had to go get your torches and pitchforks. Sorry my suggestion triggered you.

I could certainly tag three people off the top of my head who have owned a Lumagen Radiance Pro and now are putting the Envy through rigorous comparison and testing and they say it isn't really close.

I get it you are unhappy that it will be soon that your glorious lumagen is going to be replaced by The Mad VR Envy in terms of the best video processor. You guys will still be using 2019's best video processor. It is still an excellent video processor. 

If I had experience with either one you wouldn't care anyway. Arrow AV, who has way more experience than you or me with both video processors, already knows who the clear winner is. That wasn't enough enough of an endorsement for you. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## skylarlove1999

audioguy said:


> "Justifying" cost and high end audio/video are mutually exclusive . If you want it and have the coin, buy it! In this particular case (Lumagen), the improvement is pretty monumental (and REALLY easy to see - just disable DTM) - but I (and others I know) have "justified" high end purchases with a much, much smaller improvement.


Or perhaps wait a bit and see if the madVR Envy is as amazing as many industry professionals and leaders are saying it is. Healthy competition can only drive down the price of video processors in general which is great for consumers. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

otismojo said:


> This is a repost from the Sony 885 forum, but there isn’t much activity there so I’m reposting it here.
> 
> I’m looking for advice on my next upgrade.
> 
> I have a Sony 885 (newest firmware) projecting thru a Panamorph DCR lens on to an older Firehawk G4 screen. Oppo 205 bluray player. Recently calibrated by Chad B.
> 
> Screen is a motorized 2.35:1 130” diagonal with motorized masking. Picture is bright and I’m mostly happy with it. Darks and contrast could be a little better thus my question.
> 
> I’m trying to decide what would be a better value for my picture?Should I upgrade to a better screen like a studiotek 100 or get a Lumagen Pro?
> 
> I know it’s a funny question and I’m pretty well versed on the technologies, but which would give me a better picture? Does a better screen make more sense or does adding dynamic tone mapping?
> 
> I have a light controlled room (no ambient light, but ceiling also not painted black either) and more than plenty of brightness for HDR especially with my 1.2 or 1.3 gain screen. I’d like better contrast and tone mapping for HDR and am trying to decide if that comes with a better screen (ST100) or dynamic tone mapping.
> 
> It’s obviously easier to just buy a Lumagen and get it calibrated than to remove my motorized screen and change it. Can my motorized screen even be changed? Most of my viewing is HDR on Blu-ray.
> 
> Anyone with an opinion?


Firehawk has some ALR properties, so it is very hard to see ST100 giving you anything like more contrast in your room, especially if your ceiling is not dark. From what I understand ST100 is probably only appropriate in a highly treated room without reflective issues. I would have thought ST100 is likely to be a downgrade.

For watching HDR content it's hard to imagine that you wouldn't get significant benefits from using a dynamic tonemapping solution like the Radiance Pro over what the Sony's built in very limited processing can do.


----------



## KarlKlammer

skylarlove1999 said:


> Nigel of Arrow AV sold his Lumagen and is taking a madVR Envy to demo the Christie Eclipse projector .


Then I should of course bin my Radiance and the NX9. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.


And welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## Kris Deering

skylarlove1999 said:


> The good old "if you haven't seen or had experience with it so you shouldn't be commenting" reply. LOL.
> 
> I get it. I came into the Lumagen thread and suggested another video processor. All I did was suggest considering it and you had to go get your torches and pitchforks. Sorry my suggestion triggered you.
> 
> I could certainly tag three people off the top of my head who have owned a Lumagen Radiance Pro and now are putting the Envy through rigorous comparison and testing and they say it isn't really close.
> 
> I get it you are unhappy that it will be soon that your glorious lumagen is going to be replaced by The Mad VR Envy in terms of the best video processor. You guys will still be using 2015's best video processor. It is still an excellent video processor.
> 
> If I had experience with either one you wouldn't care anyway. Arrow AV, who has way more experience than you or me with both video processors, already knows who the clear winner is. That wasn't enough enough of an endorsement for you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


This post really comes off as trolling and condescending at the same time. "2015" best processor? Um, pretty sure that has been the case since a couple of weeks ago. And the only thing I've seen in regards to Envy's advantage is scaling and tone mapping, with an emphasis on scaling because I'm pretty sure if you look past buzz words the difference in tone mapping will be fleeting at best with most content. What HASN'T happened yet is ANY regard to the Envy as a video processor outside of those two things. And a VIDEO PROCESSOR should do a lot more than that. It is there to fix problems and increase usability within a system and I've already mentioned quite a few things that have not been reported on that I see in systems all the time as issues that the Radiance fixes. The lack of 3D support and virtual inputs comes to mind immediately since I calibrate a lot of systems that still use 3D and even more that need multiple calibrations for different setup issues (zooms, different screens, multiple monitors). Then the value of Lumagen's length in the industry, customer and product support and track record speak for themself. There is still a TON of value in Lumagen as a processor and brand. MadVR as a processor hasn't even gotten out of the gate yet, let's see what happens when it starts getting installed in complex systems where we ask it to do a lot more than just tone mapping and scaling.


----------



## skylarlove1999

KarlKlammer said:


> Then I should of course bin my Radiance and the NX9. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
> 
> 
> And welcome to my ignore list.


LOL. So much hostility because I mentioned a another video processor. Why are you guys so afraid of the madVR Envy? You should keep the NX9 . It is a really good projector. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## skylarlove1999

Kris Deering said:


> This post really comes off as trolling and condescending at the same time. "2015" best processor? Um, pretty sure that has been the case since a couple of weeks ago. And the only thing I've seen in regards to Envy's advantage is scaling and tone mapping, with an emphasis on scaling because I'm pretty sure if you look past buzz words the difference in tone mapping will be fleeting at best with most content. What HASN'T happened yet is ANY regard to the Envy as a video processor outside of those two things. And a VIDEO PROCESSOR should do a lot more than that. It is there to fix problems and increase usability within a system and I've already mentioned quite a few things that have not been reported on that I see in systems all the time as issues that the Radiance fixes. The lack of 3D support and virtual inputs comes to mind immediately since I calibrate a lot of systems that still use 3D and even more that need multiple calibrations for different setup issues (zooms, different screens, multiple monitors). Then the value of Lumagen's length in the industry, customer and product support and track record speak for themself. There is still a TON of value in Lumagen as a processor and brand. MadVR as a processor hasn't even gotten out of the gate yet, let's see what happens when it starts getting installed in complex systems where we ask it to do a lot more than just tone mapping and scaling.


With all due respect please look from post 7063 and on before you call me condescending and trolling. I merely suggested the Envy as an option. Period. That was sum of my first post.

Kris I get that you haven't gotten enough time to evaluate the Envy yet. Still super early. You always due your diligence and evaluation thoroughly. That is why your reputation precedes you. 

You are totally right that the Lumagen has been thoroughly vetted and they continue to make improvements. The Kuro was once the king of televisions as well. Until it wasn't. I merely suggested considering the Envy alongside the Radiance Pro as an option. 

So much hostility and venom over a suggestion. Maybe the Radiance Pro will still yet be King.

I never said that Lumagen was garbage or that it wasn't an amazing piece of technology. 

Kris I am pretty sure you will be giving the Envy a ringing endorsement after you get a couple months with one and recommending it right alongside the Lumagen. Not over it. You seem to see the benefit of competition in the marketplace driving innovation, improvements and lowering prices. 

Why are people so threatened by the Envy? In this thread, in the JVC 4k owners thread, so many visceral responses to the Envy on both sides. It sure is living up to its name. It was just a suggestion at first. I do believe @ARROW-AV when he says how amazing an image the Envy displays. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

skylarlove1999 said:


> With all due respect please look from post 7063 and on before you call me condescending and trolling. I merely suggested the Envy as an option. Period. That was sum of my first post.
> 
> Kris I get that you haven't gotten enough time to evaluate the Envy yet. Still super early. You always due your diligence and evaluation thoroughly. That is why your reputation precedes you.
> 
> You are totally right that the Lumagen has been thoroughly vetted and they continue to make improvements. The Kuro was once the king of televisions as well. Until it wasn't. I merely suggested considering the Envy alongside the Radiance Pro as an option.
> 
> So much hostility and venom over a suggestion. Maybe the Radiance Pro will still yet be King.
> 
> I never said that Lumagen was garbage or that it wasn't an amazing piece of technology.
> 
> Kris I am pretty sure you will be giving the Envy a ringing endorsement after you get a couple months with one and recommending it right alongside the Lumagen. Not over it. You seem to see the benefit of competition in the marketplace driving innovation, improvements and lowering prices.
> 
> Why are people so threatened by the Envy? In this thread, in the JVC 4k owners thread, so many visceral responses to the Envy on both sides. It sure is living up to its name. It was just a suggestion at first. I do believe @ARROW-AV when he says how amazing an image the Envy displays.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I read your post and called it as I saw it. The tone came off as very condescending. And I just reread the comments since your post and still stand by my commentary. The only justification you mention is that Arrow owned a Lumagen and then sold it for an Envy. Great, Arrow liked it for his setup, but we still don't even have any idea what his setup needs compared to another's. And most of the posts that I see that have to do with the Envy are not being called into question because of ITS performance, it is the representation of the other products that has people responding. 

I am very excited to get an opportunity to test the Envy as I'm ALWAYS looking for solutions for better video performance for myself and my customers. But the last thing I would do is misrepresent other products simply because I like another. And I haven't seen any type of review or insight on how the Envy works as a video processor other than it scales well and has great tone mapping. Video processors have a lot more functionality than that, and with the few out there we haven't seen any indication of how they do with difficult systems that need real solutions. Lumagen has OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.


----------



## Kris Deering

otismojo said:


> I don’t need any aspect ratio fixes/improvements since it’s native to the projector using the DCR lens.
> 
> I’d like to see the benefits of DTM, but trying to weigh its benefit over a better screen. Hoping to hear from someone who has made incremental changes and their effect.
> 
> I’m likely going to just add the Lumagen just trying to justify the cost.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I think you'll find the aspect ratio fixes/improvements are FAR beyond what you think they are and would completely change your tune if you saw it demonstrated compared to what you get from the Sony. I would say the majority of my customers are STUNNED by the level of ease of use and performance this aspect of the Lumagen brings to a scope setup. It is probably a bigger game changer for everyday use than anything else.


----------



## audioguy

Let's discuss the Envy 24 months from now. It may indeed eventually be the best video processor on the planet. BUT: It has yet to be tested in volume; long term quality is unknown; what level of support will there be when not 10 but 300 are in the field?; documentation quality?; re-seller training?; what does it do besides up-scaling and DTM? Side by side blind comparison when both are calibrated by the best of the best? I could go on. 


I can only hope it is better/faster/cheaper than a Lumagen. Why? Because competition is great for the consumer - and I have little doubt that at the end of the day, Jim/Lumagen won't sit on the sidelines and let his "baby" go stale.


----------



## skylarlove1999

scrowe said:


> And your own direct experience or expertise with either product is? ...


Condescending


KarlKlammer said:


> Then I should of course bin my Radiance and the NX9. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
> 
> 
> And welcome to my ignore list.


Trolling and condescending


Kris Deering said:


> I read your post and called it as I saw it. The tone came off as very condescending. And I just reread the comments since your post and still stand by my commentary. The only justification you mention is that Arrow owned a Lumagen and then sold it for an Envy. Great, Arrow liked it for his setup, but we still don't even have any idea what his setup needs compared to another's. And most of the posts that I see that have to do with the Envy are not being called into question because of ITS performance, it is the representation of the other products that has people responding.
> 
> I am very excited to get an opportunity to test the Envy as I'm ALWAYS looking for solutions for better video performance for myself and my customers. But the last thing I would do is misrepresent other products simply because I like another. And I haven't seen any type of review or insight on how the Envy works as a video processor other than it scales well and has great tone mapping. Video processors have a lot more functionality than that, and with the few out there we haven't seen any indication of how they do with difficult systems that need real solutions. Lumagen has OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.


My father taught me not to pick fights but never be afraid to finish them. Obviously as an adult most "fights" are discussions. I responded accordingly. You certainly are entitled to your opinion. 

People use your opinion here in the US as justification for their own opinion in the forum many times without having any real experience with the products that you do. 

I think highly of Nigel's opinion on AV matters, as I do yours. If it were your opinion I was basing my support of the Envy on, rather than my own experience, I do not think you or others would have an issue with it. I get it this a Lumagen owner's thread. I would hope that people could have an open mind about another processor being as good as the Lumagen. I know you are open to the possibility but your visceral responses here and in the JVC thread have me concerned that your mind may not be as open as you state it is.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## skylarlove1999

audioguy said:


> Let's discuss the Envy 24 months from now. It may indeed eventually be the best video processor on the planet. BUT: It has yet to be tested in volume; long term quality is unknown; what level of support will there be when not 10 but 300 are in the field?; documentation quality?; re-seller training?; what does it do besides up-scaling and DTM? Side by side blind comparison when both are calibrated by the best of the best? I could go on.
> 
> 
> I can only hope it is better/faster/cheaper than a Lumagen. Why? Because competition is great for the consumer - and I have little doubt that at the end of the day, Jim/Lumagen won't sit on the sidelines and let his "baby" go stale.


How about 12 months?  Seriously I was not trying to start a war. Just came across the original question in my feed and just suggested the Envy as an Option. Being totally transparent I didn't notice it was the Lumagen thread until after I posted. 

Your post was rational and eloquent. I second your recommendation. Thank you for thoughtful commentary. Although I don't think it will take 24 months. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> I'm curious as to why you've made this statement as fact since I believe that a recent post by @jrp indicated that these features were not among those upgrades *currently* being considered for the next firmware update.


I never talked solely about the next firmware. Those mentioned are in the pipeline...

I don´t care when they arrive since they are working so hard to push HDR to it´s next level and an other great features.


----------



## blake

What specifically does the Lumagen do for difficult setups that is in question, that the Envy will need to also do ? Don’t most projectors (ex the new JVC’s) have installation modes that will change AR/lens shift/zoom and recall specific calibration /HDR settings ? So the video processor just needs to trigger the projector to recall a specific mode (which should be easy for the Envy to implement)? The Envy will have one input so presumably one will rely on the pre-pro to manage the input sources. 

What more complex functionality is required from the processor ? I am asking because I don’t know. I will be in the market for a processor in the next 3 months for my 4500/motorized masking screen and I am thinking about what I will need beyond DTM and scaling.


----------



## bobof

skylarlove1999 said:


> LOL. So much hostility because I mentioned a another video processor. Why are you guys so afraid of the madVR Envy?


I don't think it is so much afraid of it as a little bit sick of hearing about how you may want to wait for something that still isn't quite out the door  It's been over a year now that this has been a point being made in this thread, often by folk with no experience of the benefits of these products 

I look at it another way, and since the Envy was initially discussed I've watched over 1000hrs of DTM content - most of that from sources with only HDMI outputs. Had I been waiting I wouldn't have had that level of enjoyment from that content. 

I think folk who are seriously in the VP market at this level and have been sitting waiting since then have been doing their viewing quite the disservice. I say that because I'm sure for almost everyone buying this kind of gear it is firmly into "discretionary spend" territory and not representing the kid's college fund and eating beans on toast until the end of days...!  Or at least I hope so.

In your previous post you could have equally said 2019, or Q1 2020, or whatever...  but you actually said 2015, and I think that says a fair bit about your own prejudices and preconceptions.

For my own part I'm wishing the MadVR labs guys a speedy full release so we can get to some real world in the wild comparisons across all pertinent aspects of products of these categories, and not just the odd (and sometimes "odd"!) photos and snippets from folk under NDA. I'm privileged enough to be able to own these kinds of products so I have no interest in not owning the best I can, so long as it meets my use cases


----------



## Kris Deering

skylarlove1999 said:


> People use your opinion here in the US as justification for their own opinion in the forum many times without having any real experience with the products that you do.


And the reason for this is because I would hope I have a history of being fair and doing as much objective testing as possible while also realizing the realities of what someone as picky as me looks for and wants compared to most people. In other words, my approach and execution for reviews has given people a reason to look for that insight, and that certainly wouldn't be because I am biased toward any brand. I will be the first to admit I'm HIGHLY biased to performance.



skylarlove1999 said:


> I think highly of Nigel's opinion on AV matters, as I do yours. If it were your opinion I was basing my support of the Envy on, rather than my own experience, I do not think you or others would have an issue with it.


I don't have ANY opinion or ill will to ANYONE that prefers the Envy to the Lumagen or any other product. Fantastic! I'm EXTREMELY happy for them and once again, I am VERY excited to have an opportunity to spend time with the Envy myself. My problem from the get go is the representation of other products, NOT THE ENVY. Your comment about 2015's best processor is a great example; you do know how that comment came off right? Arrow's comment about Lumagen's processing from a decade ago is another one. It comes off screaming an agenda rather than just sticking to the pros of the other products performance and in no way is close to the truth about the childish comments on the competitor. [/QUOTE]



skylarlove1999 said:


> I get it this a Lumagen owner's thread. I would hope that people could have an open mind about another processor being as good as the Lumagen. I know you are open to the possibility but your visceral responses here and in the JVC thread have me concerned that your mind may not be as open as you state it is.


I think ALL OF US have an open mind about the Envy being as good as the Lumagen. I could easily see it being BETTER than the Lumagen, but this product has barely been out of the box and hasn't come close to being vetted against ALL the things that the Lumagen brings to the table. So excuse me if I don't jump and dance about something that the only thing people seem to associate with it is tone mapping (which is EXCELLENT on the Lumagen) and scaling (which is also excellent with the Lumagen). I use video processors in my own system and my client's systems for far more things than that. As for your last comment, sorry you feel that way. I find most people start to worry about my "bias" when I don't blatantly agree with them. I'm not a Kool Aid kind of guy.



bobof said:


> I don't think it is so much afraid of it as a little bit sick of hearing about how you may want to wait for something that still isn't quite out the door  It's been over a year now that this has been a point being made in this thread, often by folk with no experience of the benefits of these products
> 
> I look at it another way, and since the Envy was initially discussed I've watched over 1000hrs of DTM content - most of that from sources with only HDMI outputs. Had I been waiting I wouldn't have had that level of enjoyment from that content.
> 
> I think folk who are seriously in the VP market at this level and have been sitting waiting since then have been doing their viewing quite the disservice. I say that because I'm sure for almost everyone buying this kind of gear it is firmly into "discretionary spend" territory and not representing the kid's college fund and eating beans on toast until the end of days...!  Or at least I hope so.
> 
> In your previous post you could have equally said 2019, or Q1 2020, or whatever...  but you actually said 2015, and I think that says a fair bit about your own prejudices and preconceptions.
> 
> For my own part I'm wishing the MadVR labs guys a speedy full release so we can get to some real world in the wild comparisons across all pertinent aspects of products of these categories, and not just the odd (and sometimes "odd"!) photos and snippets from folk under NDA. I'm privileged enough to be able to own these kinds of products so I have no interest in not owning the best I can, so long as it meets my use cases


Agree in all respects, great post.


----------



## MOberhardt

Eventidal said:


> I would definitely go with the Lumagen Pro. Great DTM for HDR and scaling capabilities (incl. nls stretching-masking-shrinking-blanking/aspect detection etc.) . Calibration features are fantastic and great updates (zone based HDR)/features (improved scaling/sharpness) on the way.
> 
> Also it is a very reliable product with excellent support.
> 
> I don´t think changing a screen would make that much of a difference...


If you are going from motorized to fixed, you can get a huge improvement on image if you had even minor surface issues on the motorized screen.


----------



## skylarlove1999

bobof said:


> I don't think it is so much afraid of it as a little bit sick of hearing about how you may want to wait for something that still isn't quite out the door  It's been over a year now that this has been a point being made in this thread, often by folk with no experience of the benefits of these products
> 
> 
> 
> I look at it another way, and since the Envy was initially discussed I've watched over 1000hrs of DTM content - most of that from sources with only HDMI outputs. Had I been waiting I wouldn't have had that level of enjoyment from that content.
> 
> 
> 
> I think folk who are seriously in the VP market at this level and have been sitting waiting since then have been doing their viewing quite the disservice. I say that because I'm sure for almost everyone buying this kind of gear it is firmly into "discretionary spend" territory and not representing the kid's college fund and eating beans on toast until the end of days...!  Or at least I hope so.
> 
> 
> 
> In your previous post you could have equally said 2019, or Q1 2020, or whatever...  but you actually said 2015, and I think that says a fair bit about your own prejudices and preconceptions.
> 
> 
> 
> For my own part I'm wishing the MadVR labs guys a speedy full release so we can get to some real world in the wild comparisons across all pertinent aspects of products of these categories, and not just the odd (and sometimes "odd"!) photos and snippets from folk under NDA. I'm privileged enough to be able to own these kinds of products so I have no interest in not owning the best I can, so long as it meets my use cases


Very well said. What I meant was the Lumagen has been the champion since 2015. They have earned that title. Unquestionably. I should have made my admiration and respect for the Lumagen clear first before stating my infatuation with the Envy. 

Yes it has been a bumpy rollout since day 1 for the Envy, with missed dates, little actual information and no details about a sales and marketing strategy. At times it has appeared there is no strategy to market this product.

Their madvr website is complete rubbish. The interested owner questionnaire was a complete waste of time. They seem to have zero business sense and experience with the rollout of a product. 

So I certainly understand the frustration with the Envy. It calls into question how the product support will be for the Envy. 

Lumagen makes a fantastic product with a clear marketing and sales strategy. From the accounts of owners in this thread, Lumagen also has first class customer and technical support. Envy has a way to go in how to run a business. I and many others have expressed this frustration in the Envy anticipation thread. I truly did not mean to start a firestorm today. I was just making to consider the Envy alongside the Lumagen. Envy could be out of business in six months. I hope not but they need some people with marketing experience and get an actual robust website that showcases the Envy and helps potential customers understand the models being offered and the channels/dealers through which to make a purchase. I ma not giving Envy a free pass by any means. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## skylarlove1999

Kris Deering said:


> And the reason for this is because I would hope I have a history of being fair and doing as much objective testing as possible while also realizing the realities of what someone as picky as me looks for and wants compared to most people. In other words, my approach and execution for reviews has given people a reason to look for that insight, and that certainly wouldn't be because I am biased toward any brand. I will be the first to admit I'm HIGHLY biased to performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have ANY opinion or ill will to ANYONE that prefers the Envy to the Lumagen or any other product. Fantastic! I'm EXTREMELY happy for them and once again, I am VERY excited to have an opportunity to spend time with the Envy myself. My problem from the get go is the representation of other products, NOT THE ENVY. Your comment about 2015's best processor is a great example; you do know how that comment came off right? Arrow's comment about Lumagen's processing from a decade ago is another one. It comes off screaming an agenda rather than just sticking to the pros of the other products performance and in no way is close to the truth about the childish comments on the competitor.








I think ALL OF US have an open mind about the Envy being as good as the Lumagen. I could easily see it being BETTER than the Lumagen, but this product has barely been out of the box and hasn't come close to being vetted against ALL the things that the Lumagen brings to the table. So excuse me if I don't jump and dance about something that the only thing people seem to associate with it is tone mapping (which is EXCELLENT on the Lumagen) and scaling (which is also excellent with the Lumagen). I use video processors in my own system and my client's systems for far more things than that. As for your last comment, sorry you feel that way. I find most people start to worry about my "bias" when I don't blatantly agree with them. I'm not a Kool Aid kind of guy.







Agree in all respects, great post.[/QUOTE]You make excellent points. I should have been more open about my admiration and respect for the Lumagen before making a flippant comment like you pointed out. 

We all have our own bias. As illustrated by you remembering a comment from Nigel about Lumagen's processing ability from 10 years ago. No one , yourself included , review products or has discussions 100% without bias. Yes you are respected by so many, because of your ability to set aside personal bias when you examine a product. It is a very admirable trait. 

You are biased to products you have personally tested. You stated so yourself. You rarely take other professionals opinions at face value.

In this stage of your career you have earned that right. But it is still a bias that your investigation and analysis is going to surpass others in the business. Not saying you are wrong in having that doubt about other people's abilities, but it still is a bias towards your own abilities over others. In your position where your reputation is your product, I understand why you trust yourself more than anyone else. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

skylarlove1999 said:


> I think ALL OF US have an open mind about the Envy being as good as the Lumagen. I could easily see it being BETTER than the Lumagen, but this product has barely been out of the box and hasn't come close to being vetted against ALL the things that the Lumagen brings to the table. So excuse me if I don't jump and dance about something that the only thing people seem to associate with it is tone mapping (which is EXCELLENT on the Lumagen) and scaling (which is also excellent with the Lumagen). I use video processors in my own system and my client's systems for far more things than that. As for your last comment, sorry you feel that way. I find most people start to worry about my "bias" when I don't blatantly agree with them. I'm not a Kool Aid kind of guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree in all respects, great post.


You make excellent points. I should have been more open about my admiration and respect for the Lumagen before making a flippant comment like you pointed out. 

We all have our own bias. As illustrated by you remembering a comment from Nigel about Lumagen's processing ability from 10 years ago. No one , yourself included , review products or has discussions 100% without bias. Yes you are respected by so many, because of your ability to set aside personal bias when you examine a product. It is a very admirable trait. 

You are biased to products you have personally tested. You stated so yourself. You rarely take other professionals opinions at face value.

In this stage of your career you have earned that right. But it is still a bias that your investigation and analysis is going to surpass others in the business. Not saying you are wrong in having that doubt about other people's abilities, but it still is a bias towards your own abilities over others. In your position where your reputation is your product, I understand why you trust yourself more than anyone else. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Hmm. Not so sure I agree with you here either. What does me having an objection to an untrue and unfounded comment made by you or someone else have to do with bias? Arrow does a fantastic job with his in depth reviews, I don't think mine are any better or worse than his, but we do have different approaches. I could say that about other reviewers as well. I personally don't comment on the quality of a product's performance unless I've tested it though, and I'll state right out if I have a limited amount of experience in the field the product is in. And I certainly don't make false claims about another product to try and elevate another, again the merits of the product should speak for itself. I would have ZERO issue with the commentary here if it was the truth like Lumagen can't do scaling to 8K, doesn't do image enhancement, or numerous other features the Envy does. Have I mentioned a single untruth about the Envy or even commented on its processing performance?? I've pointed out things I see as possible issues for some setups that are all confirmed, I haven't said a single thing about its actual performance as I've only seen a limited demo that I couldn't draw conclusions from in that regard. 

There are reviewers out there that I don't take their opinion at face value because of my past experiences with their comments and my own findings, but honestly I don't read a lot of other reviews out there (I don't even have a subscription to Sound and Vision). I certainly don't doubt Arrow's abilities to test an Envy, but he hasn't published one and his only commentary has been on scaling and tone mapping, which are only one facet of a video processor (though very important for sure). I don't agree with all his comments about processing power, but that doesn't mean I don't respect his reviews or find value in his insight (which I'm sure he knows based on numerous conversations we've had with each other over the years). 

While I do indeed trust myself when it comes to AV testing, I am far from infallible and I'm ALWAYS learning. I take input from numerous trusted sources and have ZERO issue saying I'm wrong or not up to speed about something. There are a lot of people with WAY WAY WAY more insight and knowledge about AV than myself, but I try my best to learn and report as much as possible.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> I never talked solely about the next firmware. Those mentioned are in the pipeline...


Included in Jim's prior post to which you alluded was this statement: "After this (DTM), edge enhancements and *possibly* scaling enhancements will be worked on as well. Definitely no schedule on this as it is a large project.". I was asking why you took this to mean that these improvements were definitively "on the way", rather than possibly being developed at some (undefined) point in the future?


----------



## Craig Peer

Eventidal said:


> I would definitely go with the Lumagen Pro. Great DTM for HDR and scaling capabilities (incl. nls stretching-masking-shrinking-blanking/aspect detection etc.) . Calibration features are fantastic and great updates (zone based HDR)/features (improved scaling/sharpness) on the way.
> 
> Also it is a very reliable product with excellent support.
> 
> *I don´t think changing a screen would make that much of a difference.*..


I found going from a Firehawk to a StudioTek 130 to big a big improvement in my theater. That said, changing an electric screen and selling the old one is quite a project. Still, I'm glad I did it - with two electric screens no less ( double the pain in the butt, but double the pleasure ). 

That said, a Lumagen will be a much easier way to improve the picture. Then change the screen later.


----------



## Craig Peer

skylarlove1999 said:


> I think ALL OF US have an open mind about the Envy being as good as the Lumagen. I could easily see it being BETTER than the Lumagen, but this product has barely been out of the box and hasn't come close to being vetted against ALL the things that the Lumagen brings to the table. So excuse me if I don't jump and dance about something that the only thing people seem to associate with it is tone mapping (which is EXCELLENT on the Lumagen) and scaling (which is also excellent with the Lumagen). I use video processors in my own system and my client's systems for far more things than that. As for your last comment, sorry you feel that way. I find most people start to worry about my "bias" when I don't blatantly agree with them. I'm not a Kool Aid kind of guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree in all respects, great post.


You make excellent points. I should have been more open about my admiration and respect for the Lumagen before making a flippant comment like you pointed out. 

We all have our own bias. As illustrated by you remembering a comment from Nigel about Lumagen's processing ability from 10 years ago. No one , yourself included , review products or has discussions 100% without bias. Yes you are respected by so many, because of your ability to set aside personal bias when you examine a product. It is a very admirable trait. 

*You are biased to products you have personally tested. You stated so yourself. You rarely take other professionals opinions at face value.

In this stage of your career you have earned that right. But it is still a bias that your investigation and analysis is going to surpass others in the business. Not saying you are wrong in having that doubt about other people's abilities, but it still is a bias towards your own abilities over others. In your position where your reputation is your product, I understand why you trust yourself more than anyone else. *

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I like Nigel, but he tends to " shoot from the hip " on things at times. He hated the RS4500, before he loved it. Anyway, the Envy isn't even shipping yet - only a couple of units are out. They have a long way to go to be able to prove they can create a successful business - especially since I heard the top model is now $12K. For $12K I can buy a Lumagen and an RS2000 to use with it.


----------



## skylarlove1999

Craig Peer said:


> You make excellent points. I should have been more open about my admiration and respect for the Lumagen before making a flippant comment like you pointed out.
> 
> 
> 
> We all have our own bias. As illustrated by you remembering a comment from Nigel about Lumagen's processing ability from 10 years ago. No one , yourself included , review products or has discussions 100% without bias. Yes you are respected by so many, because of your ability to set aside personal bias when you examine a product. It is a very admirable trait.
> 
> 
> 
> *You are biased to products you have personally tested. You stated so yourself. You rarely take other professionals opinions at face value.
> 
> 
> 
> In this stage of your career you have earned that right. But it is still a bias that your investigation and analysis is going to surpass others in the business. Not saying you are wrong in having that doubt about other people's abilities, but it still is a bias towards your own abilities over others. In your position where your reputation is your product, I understand why you trust yourself more than anyone else. *
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk




I like Nigel, but he tends to " shoot from the hip " on things at times. He hated the RS4500, before he loved it. Anyway, the Envy isn't even shipping yet - only a couple of units are out. They have a long way to go to be able to prove they can create a successful business - especially since I heard the top model is now $12K. For $12K I can buy a Lumagen and an RS2000 to use with it. [/QUOTE]Nigel does tend to fall in love quickly if a product really blows him away. It is his bias. I tend to be the same way . You are 100% correct about the madVR folks needing to get their act together on the business side. Madshi acknowledged tonight in a post in the anticipation thread that they brought the product to the market before they were prepared. They have a lot of trust to earn back. They are relying solely on the product to overcome all the business missteps they have made. Not a great strategy. People tend to be more forgiving of a product if you make it easy to understand its benefits and easy to buy. So far they have not done that. Reminds me much more of a mom and pop operation. Their target demographic is very affluent people around the world. That might be their saving grace, as many of those people rely on industry professionals to point them in the right direction. Madvr hopefully will be helping dealers with demo units and marketing materials. First thing is to properly set up the website to showcase the Envy. That should have already been a no brainer.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

Goodness, this is turning again into a Sony/JVC thread. Lol. Also, Envy is suppose to add virtual inputs at some point in the future. Maybe Lumagen has a patent on that.  I for one can’t think of using my audio processor to handle HDMI video issues. Let’s wait and read the reviews of the Envy when they come out. SJ


----------



## mikela

skylarlove1999 said:


> Locals only around here? Based upon your comments I would say so . LOL. Nigel of Arrow AV sold his Lumagen and is taking a madVR Envy to demo the Christie Eclipse projector . Just sayin.


Well I was there and saw it. While I liked the SDR part of the demo, I and a few others felt the HDR looked over processed. In fairness to the Envy, I did mention this to Nigel and he indicated that it was on "full tilt" and could be dialed back. Just sayin


----------



## Eventidal

Craig Peer said:


> I found going from a Firehawk to a StudioTek 130 to big a big improvement in my theater. That said, changing an electric screen and selling the old one is quite a project. Still, I'm glad I did it - with two electric screens no less ( double the pain in the butt, but double the pleasure ).
> 
> That said, a Lumagen will be a much easier way to improve the picture. Then change the screen later.


I never said it would not make an improvement to change the screen.

I changed my screen too but found without DTM and the Lumagen it would not have made such an improvement. And I also installed a DCR  So yes, the Lumagen is a great choice and a major step up.

Best to do obviously both, but I would personally go with the Lumagen first.


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> Included in Jim's prior post to which you alluded was this statement: "After this (DTM), edge enhancements and *possibly* scaling enhancements will be worked on as well. Definitely no schedule on this as it is a large project.". I was asking why you took this to mean that these improvements were definitively "on the way", rather than possibly being developed at some (undefined) point in the future?


Do you own a Lumagen? Have you ever looked into the menu? There are still free slots for sharpness, noise reduction, audio and so on.

All I am saying there will be new features and those mentioned by Jim will be next. Even if he has no exact schedule they WILL arrive. Same goes for pip. 

So yes, in my mind they are on their way - even if it takes another year to come or more.


----------



## audioguy

skylarlove1999 said:


> How about 12 months?


My comment about 2 years was for Envy to demonstrate that they had the "potential" to demonstrate they* might be* a real, long term viable company. But, even if at the end of 2 years, and let's assume their product was at least as good as or better than the Lumagen, and cost the same, I personally still would not be a candidate. 

The high end projector market is not huge. The video processor market is just a teeny, tiny, minuscule portion of that market. And now this new company (Envy) would probably have to eat into a some part of Lumagen's existing customers and get enough new customers to be profitable - long term - and long term is WAY longer than two years. 

I've probably been around this hobby (and this business) longer than the vast majority of members of this forum. I can't recall the number of multi-thousand dollar products I have purchased in that time, that were, indeed, really excellent. And more than I wish, the companies didn't last 5 years - and some less than that. While there is no guarantee that won't happen to me again (it has - Carada is an example), I now (and have for some time) make very careful purchase decisions on any new products I buy, specifically as it relates to their demonstrated long term survival. 

I decided, just for grins, to look at the companies whose products I now use and their longevity: ATI = 26 years; *Lumagen = 19 years*; JVC = 20+ years; Trinnov = 17 years; Panamorph = 19 years; Triad = 40 years; Seymour = >10 years; Synology = 20 years; Oppo = GONE; Carada (Masquerade Electronic Horizontal Masking System) = GONE.

This is just me but I no longer have interest in spending $5000 or $10,000 on a product, however excellent that it might be, without the company behind it having demonstrated a long and strong history of performance.


----------



## skylarlove1999

audioguy said:


> My comment about 2 years was for Envy to demonstrate that they had the "potential" to demonstrate they* might be* a real, long term viable company. But, even if at the end of 2 years, and let's assume their product was at least as good as or better than the Lumagen, and cost the same, I personally still would not be a candidate.
> 
> The high end projector market is not huge. The video processor market is just a teeny, tiny, minuscule portion of that market. And now this new company (Envy) would probably have to eat into a some part of Lumagen's existing customers and get enough new customers to be profitable - long term - and long term is WAY longer than two years.
> 
> I've probably been around this hobby (and this business) longer than the vast majority of members of this forum. I can't recall the number of multi-thousand dollar products I have purchased in that time, that were, indeed, really excellent. And more than I wish, the companies didn't last 5 years - and some less than that. While there is no guarantee that won't happen to me again (it has - Carada is an example), I now (and have for some time) make very careful purchase decisions on any new products I buy, specifically as it relates to their demonstrated long term survival.
> 
> I decided, just for grins, to look at the companies whose products I now use and their longevity: ATI = 26 years; *Lumagen = 19 years*; JVC = 20+ years; Trinnov = 17 years; Panamorph = 19 years; Triad = 40 years; Seymour = >10 years; Synology = 20 years; Oppo = GONE; Carada (Masquerade Electronic Horizontal Masking System) = GONE.
> 
> This is just me but I no longer have interest in spending $5000 or $10,000 on a product, however excellent that it might be, without the company behind it having demonstrated a long and strong history of performance.


That is very sage advice. It is a good strategy to follow. The hardest part is, adhering to that strategy when new startup technology comes along. Being disciplined enough to only buy products with at least a two year history is a challenge for most people with large discretionary spending accounts, especially when they see and hear about the latest and greatest shiny new toy. 

Filling like you are missing out on an enhancement of your most joyous hobby, defeats most individuals discipline. I certainly applaud your approach. I do appreciate you sharing it with us. It is very sound advice. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Die Zwei

skylarlove1999 said:


> That is very sage advice. It is a good strategy to follow. The hardest part is, adhering to that strategy when new startup technology comes along. Being disciplined enough to only buy products with at least a two year history is a challenge for most people with large discretionary spending accounts, especially when they see and hear about the latest and greatest shiny new toy.
> 
> Filling like you are missing out on an enhancement of your most joyous hobby, defeats most individuals discipline. I certainly applaud your approach. I do appreciate you sharing it with us. It is very sound advice.



If everybody would follow this approach, there won´t be any new innovative products from innovative start-ups anymore...
Also Trinnov and others were startups at some point in time and if nobody put trust in them at the beginning, they wouldn´t exist right now.


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## audioguy

hockyAVS said:


> I*f everybody would follow this approach, there won´t be any new innovative products from innovative start-ups anymore...*


You are absolutely correct. And as I noted, this is just my approach. Once you have spent $10,000 or $20,000 (or, in my case, *way more*) on products where the company goes south, you might become disciplined as well.


----------



## skylarlove1999

hockyAVS said:


> If everybody would follow this approach, there won´t be any new innovative products from innovative start-ups anymore...
> 
> Also Trinnov and others were startups at some point in time and if nobody put trust in them at the beginning, they wouldn´t exist right now.


That is the other side of the coin: missing out on fantastic products just because of a lack of track history. Startups don't have any requirement to disclose who their financial backers are. Some do because it enhances their credibility. You make an excellent point that without consumer support for innovative products from startups that technological advances would indeed stagnate. Which would decrease the enjoyment of this home theater hobby. Luckily many now well established companies are at the forefront of innovation which helps with consumer confidence. JVC with dynamic tone mapping and Trinnov with their early Dolby Atmos adoption are just a couple examples. But it does beg the question of what would have happened if consumers didn't take a chance on those brands many years ago. Thanks for mentioning this important point.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## skylarlove1999

Something not right with Tapatalk or AVS forum this morning. Posts I didn't create with random letters are just showing up. Please accept my apologies. 


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## skylarlove1999

Something not right with Tapatalk or AVS forum this morning

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## skylarlove1999

audioguy said:


> My comment about 2 years was for Envy to demonstrate that they had the "potential" to demonstrate they* might be* a real, long term viable company. But, even if at the end of 2 years, and let's assume their product was at least as good as or better than the Lumagen, and cost the same, I personally still would not be a candidate.
> 
> The high end projector market is not huge. The video processor market is just a teeny, tiny, minuscule portion of that market. And now this new company (Envy) would probably have to eat into a some part of Lumagen's existing customers and get enough new customers to be profitable - long term - and long term is WAY longer than two years.
> 
> I've probably been around this hobby (and this business) longer than the vast majority of members of this forum. I can't recall the number of multi-thousand dollar products I have purchased in that time, that were, indeed, really excellent. And more than I wish, the companies didn't last 5 years - and some less than that. While there is no guarantee that won't happen to me again (it has - Carada is an example), I now (and have for some time) make very careful purchase decisions on any new products I buy, specifically as it relates to their demonstrated long term survival.
> 
> I decided, just for grins, to look at the companies whose products I now use and their longevity: ATI = 26 years; *Lumagen = 19 years*; JVC = 20+ years; Trinnov = 17 years; Panamorph = 19 years; Triad = 40 years; Seymour = >10 years; Synology = 20 years; Oppo = GONE; Carada (Masquerade Electronic Horizontal Masking System) = GONE.
> 
> This is just me but I no longer have interest in spending $5000 or $10,000 on a product, however excellent that it might be, without the company behind it having demonstrated a long and strong history of performance.





mikela said:


> Well I was there and saw it. While I liked the SDR part of the demo, I and a few others felt the HDR looked over processed. In fairness to the Envy, I did mention this to Nigel and he indicated that it was on "full tilt" and could be dialed back. Just sayin


 Something not right with Tapatalk or AVS forum this morning. Posts I didn't create are just appearing. Please accept my apologies. 


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Do you own a Lumagen? All I am saying there will be new features and those mentioned by Jim will be next. Even if he has no exact schedule they WILL arrive. So yes, in my mind they are on their way - even if it takes another year to come or more.


As my signature indicates, I *do* own a Radiance Pro and I certainly hope that Lumagen moves forward with projects which that have significance/relevance to my own HT needs. "*Another year or more*" is really very different from assuming that these enhancements are "*on the way*" just because they might currently appear on a company's "*to do*" list. It's quite possible that other projects will usurp those currently on that list and it may be that some anticipated projects may never come to successful fruition because of technical issues. Let's all agree that we believe in Lumagen's commitment to constantly improve their product, without our placing absolute expectations on specific successes; otherwise, one runs the risk of becoming just another fanboy.


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## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> You are absolutely correct. And as I noted, this is just my approach. Once you have spent $10,000 or $20,000 (or, in my case, *way more*) on products where the company goes south, you might become disciplined as well.


I totally respect your approach, i just expressed that i´m happy that not everybody is following it. 
I´m also disciplined, but just in a different way than you: i only spend money on entertainment gear that i have on spare. This limits possibilities, but also anger in case of loss.


----------



## loggeo

docrog said:


> As my signature indicates, I *do* own a Radiance Pro and I certainly hope that Lumagen moves forward with projects which that have significance/relevance to my own HT needs. "*Another year or more*" is really very different from assuming that these enhancements are "*on the way*" just because they might currently appear on a company's "*to do*" list. It's quite possible that other projects will usurp those currently on that list and it may be that some anticipated projects may never come to successful fruition because of technical issues. Let's all agree that we believe in Lumagen's commitment to constantly improve their product, without our placing absolute expectations on specific successes; otherwise, one runs the risk of becoming just another fanboy.



What exactly are your needs that you are now missing?


----------



## Die Zwei

mikela said:


> Well I was there and saw it. While I liked the SDR part of the demo, I and a few others felt the HDR looked over processed. In fairness to the Envy, I did mention this to Nigel and he indicated that it was on "full tilt" and could be dialed back. Just sayin


That´s what i mentioned in the Envy-thread: with the smaller "Pro", you can´t max out all the settings like you can with the "Extreme". But maxing out settings doesn´t neccessarily provide the best picture. That´s sth you can easily demonstrate with a madVR HTPC, you don´t even need an Envy for that.


----------



## audioguy

skylarlove1999 said:


> That is the other side of the coin: missing out on fantastic products just because of a lack of track history. Startups don't have any requirement to disclose who their financial backers are. Some do because it enhances their credibility. You make an excellent point that without consumer support for innovative products from startups that technological advances would indeed stagnate. Which would decrease the enjoyment of this home theater hobby. Luckily many now well established companies are at the forefront of innovation which helps with consumer confidence. JVC with dynamic tone mapping and Trinnov with their early Dolby Atmos adoption are just a couple examples. But it does beg the question of what would have happened if consumers didn't take a chance on those brands many years ago. Thanks for mentioning this important point.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



I am most certainly not suggesting or recommending that ANYONE follow *my* approach nor am I trying to discourage others from pursuing new products and capabilities from new companies. Otherwise there would be no new startup survival - and the Trinnovs and Lumagens of the world would not exist. I was only talking about MY current position on this subject, the fact that I have been in this hobby for so long and have spent way too much money owning products from failed companies.


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> As my signature indicates, I *do* own a Radiance Pro and I certainly hope that Lumagen moves forward with projects which that have significance/relevance to my own HT needs. "*Another year or more*" is really very different from assuming that these enhancements are "*on the way*" just because they might currently appear on a company's "*to do*" list.


Good, so if you own your Lumagen for long you know that it consistently gets new updates. 

The initial question was someone asking if he should go with a new screen or a Lumagen. 

I am happy with my Lumagen and so that was my advice. 

I don´t know what you are trying to make out of this...


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> I don´t know what you are trying to make out of this...


I'm not trying to make anything out of this, only suggesting that one should take a measured/realistic approach regarding what future improvements may or may not actually be accomplished when compared with what's "in the pipeline".


----------



## docrog

loggeo said:


> What exactly are your needs that you are now missing?


It's not a question of what I'm missing but, rather, what enhancements/improvements in scaling & HDR accuracy can possibly be accomplished, given any limitations imposed by the Radiance Pro's architecture and computing power. Time will tell.......


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> I'm not trying to make anything out of this, only suggesting that one should take a measured/realistic approach regarding what future improvements may or may not actually be accomplished when compared with what's "in the pipeline".


Let me know when you are done with this so we can move on.


----------



## docrog

Eventidal said:


> Let me know when you are done with this so we can move on.


You asked, I answered. Please feel free to move on.


----------



## jazzrock

skylarlove1999 said:


> The good old "if you haven't seen or had experience with it so you shouldn't be commenting" reply. LOL.
> 
> I get it. I came into the Lumagen thread and suggested another video processor. All I did was suggest considering it and you had to go get your torches and pitchforks. Sorry my suggestion triggered you.
> 
> I could certainly tag three people off the top of my head who have owned a Lumagen Radiance Pro and now are putting the Envy through rigorous comparison and testing and they say it isn't really close.
> 
> I get it you are unhappy that it will be soon that your glorious lumagen is going to be replaced by The Mad VR Envy in terms of the best video processor. You guys will still be using 2015's best video processor. It is still an excellent video processor.
> 
> If I had experience with either one you wouldn't care anyway. Arrow AV, who has way more experience than you or me with both video processors, already knows who the clear winner is. That wasn't enough enough of an endorsement for you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk




You’re an idiot just trying to stir up commotion....very childish.


----------



## skylarlove1999

jazzrock said:


> You’re an idiot just trying to stir up commotion....very childish.


So I am an idiot for suggesting that the madVR Envy has already surpassed the Lumagen as a video processor? 

I made a suggestion. In post 7063. One little suggestion. Wouldn't I have started by saying the madVR Envy was better than the Lumagen if I were simply trying to stir up commotion?

I understand you didn't bother to read all the posts or the insults flung at me after that. You probably hadn't even heard of the Envy before I mentioned it. I get it. You are a Lumagen fan. So naturally your upset with someone making the suggestion that the Envy could now be the best video processor. 

But calling me a childish idiot isn't really discussing the topic. It is deflecting the conversation and simply trying to attack the person to detract from their credibility. I understand if you don't know enough about this new product to have formed an opinion. I would love to discuss it once you have had time to educate yourself on the product. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Eventidal

docrog said:


> You asked, I answered. Please feel free to move on.


Thanks for your permission.


----------



## hellride

docrog said:


> I'm not trying to make anything out of this, only suggesting that one should take a measured/realistic approach regarding what future improvements may or may not actually be accomplished when compared with what's "in the pipeline".


Tell me more about "what is in the pipeline" and "what is on the way". NOT!

You don´t have a point, stop trolling others and your fanboy accusations!


----------



## mikela

hockyAVS said:


> That´s what i mentioned in the Envy-thread: with the smaller "Pro", you can´t max out all the settings like you can with the "Extreme". But maxing out settings doesn´t neccessarily provide the best picture. That´s sth you can easily demonstrate with a madVR HTPC, you don´t even need an Envy for that.


Agreed. Long time madVR user. I have htpc running madVR with a 1080ti so I am well aware of its capabilities. I do use max settings (set for minimal frame drops) for upscaling 1080p to 4K.


----------



## skylarlove1999

hellride said:


> Tell me more about "what is in the pipeline" and "what is on the way". NOT!
> 
> 
> 
> You don´t have a point, stop trolling others and your fanboy accusations!


The Lumagen architecture and computing power will limit its processing ability at some point. That is not trolling . That is just fact. It is the same reason you can't turn a PS4 into a PS5 by software/firmware updates. This is is true of any technology not a personal shot at Lumagen. So many people in this thread take any critical analysis of the Lumagen so personally. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## hellride

skylarlove1999 said:


> The Lumagen architecture and computing power will limit its processing ability at some point. That is not trolling . That is just fact. It is the same reason you can't turn a PS4 into a PS5 by software/firmware updates. This is is true of any technology not a personal shot at Lumagen. So many people in this thread take any critical analysis of the Lumagen so personally.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


So here comes another expert on the FPGA of the radiance.


----------



## hellride

hockyAVS said:


> That´s what i mentioned in the Envy-thread: with the smaller "Pro", you can´t max out all the settings like you can with the "Extreme". But maxing out settings doesn´t neccessarily provide the best picture. That´s sth you can easily demonstrate with a madVR HTPC, you don´t even need an Envy for that.


This is the Lumagen Radiance Pro thread...


----------



## Craig Peer

skylarlove1999 said:


> *The Lumagen architecture and computing power will limit its processing ability at some point. That is not trolling . That is just fact. * It is the same reason you can't turn a PS4 into a PS5 by software/firmware updates. This is is true of any technology not a personal shot at Lumagen. So many people in this thread take any critical analysis of the Lumagen so personally.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Sure, but if this industry has its way, they will make everything you own obsolete - including the Christie Eclipse and the Envy Extreme. If you let them.


----------



## skylarlove1999

hellride said:


> So here comes another expert on the FPGA of the radiance.


I am open to hearing a rebuttal. Taking personal shots isn't going to convince me or anyone intelligent that I am wrong. So please do explain further why I am wrong. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

mikela said:


> Agreed. Long time madVR user. I have htpc running madVR with a 1080ti so I am well aware of its capabilities. I do use max settings (set for minimal frame drops) for upscaling 1080p to 4K.


Every time I peek into the MadVR users thread, it seems like building and using a HTPC with MadVR requires a fair amount of on and off tweaking, tinkering and new firmware settings. True ? A HTPC seems like anything but " set and forget ". One thing I like about the Lumagen - even if it's only offering 95% picture wise of what a HTPC with MadVR can do, is zero screwing with adjustments. I'm done with that.


----------



## Die Zwei

hellride said:


> This is the Lumagen Radiance Pro thread...


True - apologies for that. 
Perhaps we can strip down my comment to just "But maxing out settings doesn´t neccessarily provide the best picture." as a general statement also being true for a Lumagen.


----------



## Die Zwei

Craig Peer said:


> Every time I peek into the MadVR users thread, it seems like building and using a HTPC with MadVR requires a fair amount of on and off tweaking, tinkering and new firmware settings. True ? A HTPC seems like anything but " set and forget ". One thing I like about the Lumagen - even if it's only offering 95% picture wise of what a HTPC with MadVR can do, is zero screwing with adjustments. I'm done with that.


That´s true and that´s the reason why the Envy was brought up.


----------



## skylarlove1999

hellride said:


> So here comes another expert on the FPGA of the radiance.


Do unto others as you would have done to you.



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

hockyAVS said:


> That´s true and that´s the reason why the Envy was brought up.


$12K is pretty steep though, and it remains to be seen whether it will remain truly " plug and play " with software upgrades / revisions over the long haul. We will see.


----------



## Die Zwei

Craig Peer said:


> $12K is pretty steep though, and it remains to be seen whether it will remain truly " plug and play " with software upgrades / revisions over the long haul. We will see.


Yep - definitely both true.


----------



## hellride

skylarlove1999 said:


> I am open to hearing a rebuttal. Taking personal shots isn't going to convince me or anyone intelligent that I am wrong. So please do explain further why I am wrong.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Man, what are you doing around here? Are you just bored at home? You are not contributing anything useful to this thread. 

Seriously, get a life!


----------



## Mike Garrett

otismojo said:


> I don’t need any aspect ratio fixes/improvements since it’s native to the projector using the DCR lens.
> 
> I’d like to see the benefits of DTM, but trying to weigh its benefit over a better screen. Hoping to hear from someone who has made incremental changes and their effect.
> 
> I’m likely going to just add the Lumagen just trying to justify the cost.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Since you have a DCR lens and scope screen, there is another feature on the Lumagen that you will find very valuable. auto aspect ratio detection. The lumagen will automaticlly adjust the image to fill the height of your screen, no matter if sent 16:9 2.40 or 1.85. This along with DTM will make your system so user friendly.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

audioguy said:


> My comment about 2 years was for Envy to demonstrate that they had the "potential" to demonstrate they* might be* a real, long term viable company. But, even if at the end of 2 years, and let's assume their product was at least as good as or better than the Lumagen, and cost the same, I personally still would not be a candidate.
> 
> The high end projector market is not huge. The video processor market is just a teeny, tiny, minuscule portion of that market. And now this new company (Envy) would probably have to eat into a some part of Lumagen's existing customers and get enough new customers to be profitable - long term - and long term is WAY longer than two years.
> 
> I've probably been around this hobby (and this business) longer than the vast majority of members of this forum. I can't recall the number of multi-thousand dollar products I have purchased in that time, that were, indeed, really excellent. And more than I wish, the companies didn't last 5 years - and some less than that. While there is no guarantee that won't happen to me again (it has - Carada is an example), I now (and have for some time) make very careful purchase decisions on any new products I buy, specifically as it relates to their demonstrated long term survival.
> 
> I decided, just for grins, to look at the companies whose products I now use and their longevity: ATI = 26 years; *Lumagen = 19 years*; JVC = 20+ years; Trinnov = 17 years; Panamorph = 19 years; Triad = 40 years; Seymour = >10 years; Synology = 20 years; Oppo = GONE; Carada (Masquerade Electronic Horizontal Masking System) = GONE.
> 
> This is just me but I no longer have interest in spending $5000 or $10,000 on a product, however excellent that it might be, without the company behind it having demonstrated a long and strong history of performance.


I hate to add but this is especially the case in the current coronavirus economic climate. Lumagen has been well established for years. Envy is the new kid on the block. In general many audio and/or video parts are made overseas, especially in China, even if the products themselves are assembled or "manufactured" in the U.S. Makes me wonder whether parts availability may be a concern particularly with a new company like Envy?


----------



## skylarlove1999

hellride said:


> Man, what are you doing around here? Are you just bored at home? You are not contributing anything useful to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, get a life!


I am sorry you feel that way. I was under the impression that this was a home theater forum where healthy debate and discussion between AV AV enthusiasts could occur without the need for personal attacks and bullying. You have helped me work on my responses to personal attacks and bullying by trying to still move forward with productive conversation. Sincerely I thank you for helping me respond with kindness rather than cruelty. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Karl Maga

skylarlove1999 said:


> *So I am an idiot for suggesting that the madVR Envy has already surpassed the Lumagen as a video processor?*


Sometimes the shoe fits; I was contemplating a couple of juvenile words that would, in effect, describe your behavior in the *Lumagen Radiance Pro* thread (that being key) but also serve no other useful purpose if used.

Without said childish verbiage, I would like to point out that you are being VERY provocative, and for no good reason.

Whether or not you have any good points to make (not nearly as many as YOU seem to think), your continued instigation is ill advised and unwelcome. 

This thread is frequented by more than a few people who have the means to painlessly purchase that other product IF it has appeal. But we’ll probably go to the dedicated thread for that product to discuss it, which is what a reasonable person would do.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mike Garrett said:


> Since you have a DCR lens and scope screen, there is another feature on the Lumagen that you will find very valuable. auto aspect ratio detection. The lumagen will automaticlly adjust the image to fill the height of your screen, no matter if sent 16:9 2.40 or 1.85. This along with DTM will make your system so user friendly.


Is it possible to get this information out of the Lumagen to control a masking system?
And is this tight to fixed ratios (like the ones you mentioned) or is it flexible? (a lot of movies do have ratios in between 1.33 - 2.4).


----------



## alex_t

skylarlove1999 said:


> why don't we use FPGAs for everything?
> 
> Generally it is a whole chip which does nothing but one operation. This means that although you can get a process to run many orders of magnitude faster in your FPGA you can't change it later when that operation is no longer useful.
> 
> The reason you can't (generally) change an FPGA once it's in a circuit is that the wiring for the interface is fixed, and normally the circuit doesn't include components which would allow you to repgrogram the FPGA into a more useful configuration.
> 
> Hence while technology marches forward, the ability for the FPGA to adapt is significantly limited compared to a CPU. There are benefits and disadvantages to both processing technologies. FPGA tends to be more efficient and faster but not nearly as adaptable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



Hello,


With FPGA Lumagen has been able to make very big evolutions in the Radiance since the Radiance exists : 3D, 3DLUT, Darbee, HDR, DTM are good examples.


In ENVY thread it is clearly explained by madshi that due to nvidia drivers constraints the ENVY is not able to manage 3D at the moment and madshi does not even know if ENVY will manage it in the future. However ENVY is based on very last up to date CPU and GPU technology.


----------



## Mike Garrett

skylarlove1999 said:


> The good old "if you haven't seen or had experience with it so you shouldn't be commenting" reply. LOL.
> 
> I get it. I came into the Lumagen thread and suggested another video processor. All I did was suggest considering it and you had to go get your torches and pitchforks. Sorry my suggestion triggered you.
> 
> I could certainly tag three people off the top of my head who have owned a Lumagen Radiance Pro and now are putting the Envy through rigorous comparison and testing and they say it isn't really close.
> 
> I get it you are unhappy that it will be soon that your glorious lumagen is going to be replaced by The Mad VR Envy in terms of the best video processor. You guys will still be using 2015's best video processor. It is still an excellent video processor.
> 
> If I had experience with either one you wouldn't care anyway. Arrow AV, who has way more experience than you or me with both video processors, already knows who the clear winner is. That wasn't enough enough of an endorsement for you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


And what would you say if I told you that MadVR, Lumagen and Pulsar monitor has been compared in a studio and the results showed Envy brighter, but Lumagen closer to mastering monitor? This is why I posted earlier, there is reference and there is preference.

Added
But even this comparison needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because I have no way to prove that the Lumagen or the MadVR setup are set to the best of the equipments ability.


----------



## skylarlove1999

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I hate to add but this is especially the case in the current coronavirus economic climate. Lumagen has been well established for years. Envy is the new kid on the block. In general many audio and/or video parts are made overseas, especially in China, even if the products themselves are assembled or "manufactured" in the U.S. Makes me wonder whether parts availability may be a concern particularly with a new company like Envy?


You make a very valid point that should not be under valued. Although unfortunately since the coronavirus has spread globally so quickly any company from developers to manufacturers could be affected short term by a workflow interruption due to infected workers. 

A more established company might have the financial security to better absorb that financial blow but many established companies have high debt loads which are unsustainable when their current income streams are interrupted for even a short time. Meeting payroll when you have 1000s of employees, instead of just 50, becomes much more difficult to sustain without the usual revenue generated by a business operating at peak capacity. 

Established companies generally have higher overhead and more employees which can be a financial burden when an outbreak occurs. Whereas a startup generally has less overhead and less employees and access to capital that is not dependent on an income stream. So we don't really know which company could be more affected by this virus. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## skylarlove1999

Karl Maga said:


> Sometimes the shoe fits; I was contemplating a couple of juvenile words that would, in effect, describe your behavior in the *Lumagen Radiance Pro* thread (that being key) but also serve no other useful purpose if used.
> 
> 
> 
> Without said childish verbiage, I would like to point out that you are being VERY provocative, and for no good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether or not you have any good points to make (not nearly as many as YOU seem to think), your continued instigation is ill advised and unwelcome.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is frequented by more than a few people who have the means to painlessly purchase that other product IF it has appeal. But we’ll probably go to the dedicated thread for that product to discuss it, which is what a reasonable person would do.


I can see that any discussion of the pros and cons of the Lumagen versus the madVR Envy at this time does not seem welcome or possible. That makes me sad. But I will say goodbye. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

Mike Garrett said:


> And what would you say if I told you that MadVR, Lumagen and Pulsar monitor has been compared in a studio and the results showed Envy brighter, but Lumagen closer to mastering monitor? This is why I posted earlier, there is reference and there is preference.




“There is a reference and there is preference”

Well say 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Mike Garrett said:


> And what would you say if I told you that MadVR, Lumagen and Pulsar monitor has been compared in a studio and the results showed Envy brighter, but Lumagen closer to mastering monitor? This is why I posted earlier, there is reference and there is preference.





ARROW-AV said:


> Nope, it was 17 not 70 fL
> 
> To clarify, the Christie Eclipse unit used for the demo measured peak luminance capability of 220 nits / 64 fL, however this was WAY too bright, wherein for the demo we had the projector set such that that peak white level was 57 nits / 17 fL
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the Christie Eclipse has unique characteristics, in that you have an 18 foot wide screen with an insane luminance dynamic range. And because the blacks are so black the image looks much brighter than it does with other projectors. Consequently, bright parts of the image become uncomfortable if you have the image brighter than this because of the extremely high dynamic range.
> .


Perhaps why the Envy/Eclipse demo the other day was set to 17 footlamberts, as they said otherwise the bright would have been too bright?


----------



## mikela

Craig Peer said:


> Every time I peek into the MadVR users thread, it seems like building and using a HTPC with MadVR requires a fair amount of on and off tweaking, tinkering and new firmware settings. True ? A HTPC seems like anything but " set and forget ". One thing I like about the Lumagen - even if it's only offering 95% picture wise of what a HTPC with MadVR can do, is zero screwing with adjustments. I'm done with that.


It is not for the faint of heart. It does provide exceptional upscaling of 1080p content and DTM capabilities for those willing to take it on. Having said that, I tend to be lazy and use the Radiance as my source MUX for everything except 1080p.


----------



## Craig Peer

mikela said:


> It is not for the faint of heart. It does provide exceptional upscaling of 1080p content and DTM capabilities for those willing to take it on. Having said that, I tend to be lazy and use the Radiance as my source MUX for everything except 1080p.


I'm definitely lazy at this point. I just want to watch movies. I'm so lazy, I bought a laser projector so I wouldn't have to change lamps for the next 5 years. That's lazy ! Besides, there is enough tinkering on the audio side of this hobby if I get bored.


----------



## Karl Maga

I would have hoped that it would be recognized by now that this is the *Lumagen Radiance Pro* thread, and that other threads exist for other products. Some of them are very similar to a Radiance Pro, and I subscribe to those as well. 

But, I go to those threads for discussion of those products. Some of you might also enjoy them - try it!


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I hate to add but this is especially the case in the current coronavirus economic climate. Lumagen has been well established for years. Envy is the new kid on the block. In general many audio and/or video parts are made overseas, especially in China, even if the products themselves are assembled or "manufactured" in the U.S. Makes me wonder whether parts availability may be a concern particularly with a new company like Envy?





skylarlove1999 said:


> You make a very valid point that should not be under valued. Although unfortunately since the coronavirus has spread globally so quickly any company from developers to manufacturers could be affected short term by a workflow interruption due to infected workers.
> 
> A more established company might have the financial security to better absorb that financial blow but many established companies have high debt loads which are unsustainable when their current income streams are interrupted for even a short time. Meeting payroll when you have 1000s of employees, instead of just 50, becomes much more difficult to sustain without the usual revenue generated by a business operating at peak capacity.
> 
> Established companies generally have higher overhead and more employees which can be a financial burden when an outbreak occurs. Whereas a startup generally has less overhead and less employees and access to capital that is not dependent on an income stream. So we don't really know which company could be more affected by this virus.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Lumagen has been around for years including through the last "great" recession 2008-2009. As a long existing company Lumagen certainly has some supply of parts on hand. Envy as a startup
is not likely to have the supply of parts on hand or financial capability as already demonstrated by Lumagen to survive a recession. This is certainly something to consider. I of course wish Envy well.


----------



## jrp

Allow me to add to what alex_t posted to correct the uninformed comments that someone posted on FPGAs.

Contrary to what was posted we can change *everything* in the FPGA for *every* release if we want to. Of course we don't want to, but the point is FPGA are completely flexible and not constrained by any previous version of code. Instead we make changes for bug fixes, algorithm improvements , and adding new features. The Radiance Pro FPGA code is stored in a re-programmable Flash ROM in its entirety. So everything could be changed. 

Anyone looking at the evolution of the Radiance, and more recently the Radiance Pro, can see the dramatic improvements we have made over the years. Feature not even contemplated during the design phase are now supported. A few of these are 3D Video, Non-linear-stretch, image based auto aspect, HDR support, Static Tone mapping, Dynamic Tone mapping, adding adaptation to dynamic tone mapping and, later this week, adding zone-based analysis for DTM.

FPGA are very efficient at implementing video algorithms. It is not as easy to program as GPU's, but we have 18 years experience developing our own algorithms, adding new features (such as 3D, back in circa 2010, which pretty much put all our competition out of business), and improving our video processing. And I think an interesting side note is that some features were added to fix an issue for a single dealer's system, or a programmers request. For example the next release will have the ability to set the foreground, background, and blend value for the RS232 on-screen message command (which I will post in a bit).

And we will continue to improve algorithms and add new features in the future.


----------



## Mike Garrett

hockyAVS said:


> Is it possible to get this information out of the Lumagen to control a masking system?
> And is this tight to fixed ratios (like the ones you mentioned) or is it flexible? (a lot of movies do have ratios in between 1.33 - 2.4).


Yes, Lumagen can send a signal to a control system for masking control. If auto aspect detection is turned on, it will fill the height of your screen with all aspect ratios.


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Is it possible to get this information out of the Lumagen to control a masking system?
> And is this tight to fixed ratios (like the ones you mentioned) or is it flexible? (a lot of movies do have ratios in between 1.33 - 2.4).


Radiance Pro auto aspect detects letterboxed aspects only as far as I'm aware, per the following fixed list:
1.78:1
1.85:1
2.00:1
2.20:1
2.35:1
2.4:1

It doesn't (as far as I know) detect pillarboxed aspects < 1.78:1.
The aspects are reported as 3 digits so I guess if there were a need that more aspects might be added, but I think having a limited set of aspects makes it a bit easier to lock in detection of an aspect ratio (as the video image can make detection a bit "fuzzy" due to black bars being in slightly different locations for same aspect eg macroblock aligned or not, compression artefacts in bars, mastering errors resulting in data at vertical edge of whole frame, etc etc). There have been quite a few detection issues that have been chipped away at diligently by the guys to end up where it is now, which is really robust.

The serial port can be set up to report automatically input format changes for a control system to react to. Then a control system can watch for these changes and perform system operations.

In my system I have a simple home made controller (running on a raspberry PI) watching the serial port output and changing my screen masking and projector user modes based on HDR vs SDR vs 3D input format and based on the detected input aspect ratio. 

There's a whole host of other fields that could be useful, but for me those are the useful ones in my system. The very complete RS232 protocol guide is linked below. ZQI22 is the command that shows the syntax of the best of the auto reports for using for this kind of automation.

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf


----------



## madshi

Mike Garrett said:


> And what would you say if I told you that MadVR, Lumagen and Pulsar monitor has been compared in a studio and the results showed Envy brighter, but Lumagen closer to mastering monitor? This is why I posted earlier, there is reference and there is preference.


I prefer not to post in this thread. But I can't let this stand without commenting. So here goes: It was the madVR HTPC software, not Envy, which was used in this comparison. And whoever did the comparison did so with an unknown madVR software version (possibly very outdated) and an unknown configuration (possibly incorrect). E.g. it's very possible that the official madVR build was used, which is light years behind the latest DTM test builds. Furthermore, rendering a scene darker means that tone mapping has much less work to do. So a fair comparison would note the brightness difference and then try to equalize it before comparing quality, so both DTM contenders apply roughly the same amount of compression. You also equalize audio volume before do an audio quality comparison, don't you? Although, admittedly, it's a bit different because picking the brightness is part of the DTM algo. Anyway, to sum up, I would recommend to take the results of this comparison with a *gigantic* pinch of salt.

-------

Anyway, I would really prefer to minimize the Envy chatter in this thread. So *please, all you Envy supporters, come over to our thread and leave the Lumagen owners in peace*. I do appreciate your support, though!


----------



## Mike Garrett

madshi said:


> I prefer not to post in this thread. But I can't let this stand without commenting. So here goes: It was the madVR HTPC software, not Envy, which was used in this comparison. And whoever did the comparison did so with an unknown madVR software version (possibly very outdated) and an unknown configuration (possibly incorrect). E.g. it's very possible that the official madVR build was used, which is light years behind the latest DTM test builds. Furthermore, rendering a scene darker means that tone mapping has much less work to do. So a fair comparison would note the brightness difference and then try to equalize it before comparing quality, so both DTM contenders apply roughly the same amount of compression. You also equalize audio volume before do an audio quality comparison, don't you? Although, admittedly, it's a bit different because picking the brightness is part of the DTM algo. Anyway, to sum up, I would recommend to take the results of this comparison with a *gigantic* pinch of salt.
> 
> -------
> 
> Anyway, I would really prefer to minimize the Envy chatter in this thread. So *please, all you Envy supporters, come over to our thread and leave the Lumagen owners in peace*. I do appreciate your support, though!


I added this note to the other post, but I guess it may not have been there when you saw it, but according to the time stamp, it should have been there. 

"Added
But even this comparison needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because I have no way to prove that the Lumagen or the MadVR setup are set to the best of the equipments ability."


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> Radiance Pro auto aspect detects letterboxed aspects only as far as I'm aware, per the following fixed list:
> 1.78:1
> 1.85:1
> 2.00:1
> 2.20:1
> 2.35:1
> 2.4:1
> 
> It doesn't (as far as I know) detect pillarboxed aspects < 1.78:1.
> The aspects are reported as 3 digits


Thanks a lot for that information.
Even if it´s fixed, i think the above should be sufficient. Looking at the protocol description, it seems to report 4:3 as well.


----------



## madshi

Mike Garrett said:


> I added this note to the other post, but I guess it may not have been there when you saw it, but according to the time stamp, it should have been there.


Yep, wasn't there yet when I wrote my post...


----------



## Die Zwei

madshi said:


> Anyway, I would really prefer to minimize the Envy chatter in this thread. So *please, all you Envy supporters, come over to our thread and leave the Lumagen owners in peace*. I do appreciate your support, though!



Good point, madshi. However, is there a place (thread) in this forum where the pros and cons of both processors can be discussed in an objective and peaceful manner (not sure if that´s even possible)?
If everybody is stuck in "their threads", that won´t be possible.


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Thanks a lot for that information.
> Even if it´s fixed, i think the above should be sufficient. Looking at the protocol description, it seems to report 4:3 as well.


It does report 4:3 over serial, yes, but auto aspect doesn't auto detect it from what I understand. Apologies @jrp in advance if I'm selling short!  
There is a dedicated 4:3 aspect ratio button on the remote control which allows you to choose 4:3, and then the serial API would output that ratio.
Originally all aspect selection on the Lumagen units was manual, auto aspect came later.


----------



## jazzrock

hockyAVS said:


> Good point, madshi. However, is there a place (thread) in this forum where the pros and cons of both processors can be discussed in an objective and peaceful manner (not sure if that´s even possible)?
> 
> If everybody is stuck in "their threads", that won´t be possible.




No one is stuck anywhere. We can all travel freely. If anyone wants to start a thread for the sole purpose of discussing the performance of both units that would be the most appropriate way to create such conversation. This thread was not started for that purpose. Some have respect and class. Unfortunately not all do.


----------



## Die Zwei

jazzrock said:


> No one is stuck anywhere. We can all travel freely. If anyone wants to start a thread for the sole purpose of discussing the performance of both units that would be the most appropriate way to create such conversation. This thread was not started for that purpose. Some have respect and class. Unfortunately not all do.


Well, before starting a thread, i asked if such a thread aleady exists. That doesn´t seem to be the case if i interpret your response correctly. So probably i´ll start such a thread indeed. 
However, given the hostility of people with "respect and class", i don´t think it will lead to a fruitful discussion... 
I think a 1:1 conversation with people "from both sides" will probably lead to a more useful outcome.


----------



## blake

bobof said:


> Radiance Pro auto aspect detects letterboxed aspects only as far as I'm aware, per the following fixed list:
> 
> 1.78:1
> 
> 1.85:1
> 
> 2.00:1
> 
> 2.20:1
> 
> 2.35:1
> 
> 2.4:1
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't (as far as I know) detect pillarboxed aspects < 1.78:1.
> 
> The aspects are reported as 3 digits so I guess if there were a need that more aspects might be added, but I think having a limited set of aspects makes it a bit easier to lock in detection of an aspect ratio (as the video image can make detection a bit "fuzzy" due to black bars being in slightly different locations for same aspect eg macroblock aligned or not, compression artefacts in bars, mastering errors resulting in data at vertical edge of whole frame, etc etc). There have been quite a few detection issues that have been chipped away at diligently by the guys to end up where it is now, which is really robust.
> 
> 
> 
> The serial port can be set up to report automatically input format changes for a control system to react to. Then a control system can watch for these changes and perform system operations.
> 
> 
> 
> In my system I have a simple home made controller (running on a raspberry PI) watching the serial port output and changing my screen masking and projector user modes based on HDR vs SDR vs 3D input format and based on the detected input aspect ratio.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a whole host of other fields that could be useful, but for me those are the useful ones in my system. The very complete RS232 protocol guide is linked below. ZQI22 is the command that shows the syntax of the best of the auto reports for using for this kind of automation.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf




So you must use a control system as an intermediary to pass info to screen masking system and projector ? Not directly from the Lumagen to these devices ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> So you must use a control system as an intermediary to pass info to screen masking system and projector ? Not directly from the Lumagen to these devices ?


Yes, you need some sort of control system. It's a control and automation task and in a control system is where it really belongs. Adding interfaces and control protocols for every screen vendor (maybe several controllers per vendor) is a waste of time, and often won't be enough because other automation is needed too, you run out of control ports, etc. To do it properly, you end up designing a control system, and they already exist from specialist firms.

It doesn't have to be much though for a simple case. In my case the "control system" is a Raspberry pi embedded computer with a small script running on it that talks to my lighting, screen controls and projector. However more often than not people in this kind of market will be having some proper control system put in with programming; I went DIY as it was a productive way to learn some tool I wanted to know for work.


----------



## blake

bobof said:


> Yes, you need some sort of control system. It's a control and automation task and in a control system is where it really belongs. Adding interfaces and control protocols for every screen vendor (maybe several controllers per vendor) is a waste of time, and often won't be enough because other automation is needed too, you run out of control ports, etc. To do it properly, you end up designing a control system, and they already exist from specialist firms.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't have to be much though for a simple case. In my case the "control system" is a Raspberry pi embedded computer with a small script running on it that talks to my lighting, screen controls and projector. However more often than not people in this kind of market will be having some proper control system put in with programming; I went DIY as it was a productive way to learn some tool I wanted to know for work.




Does the Radiance Pro have Crestron drivers available ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Does the Radiance Pro have Crestron drivers available ?


There are links to control modules on the Lumagen webpage: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control. Whether or not a specific driver has specific functionality you want I couldn't answer, and you'd be best directing those questions to Lumagen support directly. 

In any case, supporting the auto-aspect and format reporting parts of the Lumagen protocol for what you'd typically need to control should not be a very big job for any competent integrator. It took me a leisurely evening to work it out, and I was learning the scripting language at the same time!!


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> There are links to control modules on the Lumagen webpage: http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control. Whether or not a specific driver has specific functionality you want I couldn't answer, and you'd be best directing those questions to Lumagen support directly.



Unfortunately it says "Remote Control files are provded "as is" and are not supported by Lumagen"
I had a quick look into the Crestron driver and it provides some basic information, but it doesn´t seem to report everything that it could referring to the protocol description.
For instance, it reports some of the possible aspect ratio feedback (4:3, 16:9, 185, 235), but not all.



> In any case, supporting the auto-aspect and format reporting parts of the Lumagen protocol for what you'd typically need to control should not be a very big job for any competent integrator. It took me a leisurely evening to work it out, and I was learning the scripting language at the same time!!


Yes, ASCII communication is routed through the module so an average skilled Crestron programmer can add missing functionality to the existing module.

EDIT: typos


----------



## jrp

I have posted here on the new simplified DTM controls. However, here is the info with more details:

I am excited to report that we will soon release “zone-based Adaptive Dynamic Tone Mapping” (Adaptive DTM). We have previously released the Adaptive DTM. The new piece of the puzzle that is being improved is when a flash (generally an explosion) only covers a small area of the screen. Without zone-based analysis a few scenes would have this flash make the frame appear to be a scene cut and would change the transfer function to match the falsely detected scene cut. This has the side effect of making the other areas of the image change intensity, on a very few scenes, when they should not. Adding zone-based DTM was a significant effort but is proving well worth the time spent. If only a few zones are affected by the flash, and so the majority remain relatively constant, the false scene-cut detection is eliminated and the transfer-function for the scene remains the same, as it should. We expect to release this new version of Adaptive DTM (ADTM) the week of March 9.

The last few releases also make adjusting DTM parameters easier. We have simplified the menu in User-mode, but have kept the old controls available in Service-mode. Now setting up DTM has four controls, and we have made all four available in the “Left-arrow” shortcut to the DTM parameter menu. We now strongly recommend you use the default setting except as noted below. We recommend that before you adjust the DTM parameters, you use the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->Set Defaults command to reset all DTM parameters to their default, and then Save.

For the current release (011120), and future releases, HDR “Left Arrow” controls are:

-	LowRatio: We have improved our DTM algorithm enough to where we have raised the default for this control to 31 (was 15). Note that 15 still works well but 31 gives a brighter image. This control adjusts the “Display Max Light” for scenes that the Radiance Pro detects as a “moderate to dark” scene. Note that this control is used along with the bright-scene Max Light. It blends the effect of each for smooth transitions between brightness levels. I recommend leaving this at the new default setting of 31.

-	DynPad: Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene cuts on the first frame of a new scene. Because scenes can get brighter within the scene, the Radiance Pro adds a small pad to its calculation of scene brightness to avoid the scene “crushing” later within the scene. The addition of “adaptive” changes within a scene this pad does not need to be as large. We started with DynPad = 6 as default. Now we use DynPad = 3 as default. The value of 3 works very well in conjunction with the Adaptive nature of the DTM. So well that I recommend trying DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. Even with a DynPad = 1 we see virtually no scenes that have any clipping as they get brighter. In fact we are considering changing the default for DynPad to 1. So I suggest you try DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. You can of course use a value of 2 or 3 and get excellent results. However, a value of 1 will increase the perceived brightness, which can be helpful on projector based theaters.

-	DeSat: The Desaturation Control can be used for very bright scenes to make them more like what you might see if you were there in person. Very bright colors will look different to your eyes on a 4000 nit studio monitor, or in real life, than on a 100 nit projector. The common example is “Mad Max: Fury Road.” The scene at 0:28:29 has a very bright explosion where a pickup truck blows up in the air. A friend of mine discussed this scene with a producer on the movie to see what colors should be in the explosion. The answer was mostly burnt orange (with some yellow). However, many people prefer the explosions to look more yellow than the data on the disc. As noted above, this has some basis in real life. If you saw such a bright explosion your eyes would tend to desaturate the colors which might make the explosion look more yellow. Because of this we added the DeSat control. The default is 4 for this, and I leave it at default. This gives a very slight desaturation to this and other scenes with very bright colors. I have tested with a setting of 8 and I do like the look of having more yellow in the explosion. So this is a personal preference item. If you want to adjust this away from default, watch up to the above timestamp and pause. Then adjust DeSat to your preference.

-	Max Light: This is a backdoor way to change the active HDR CMS (default is CMS1) HDR Mapping Max Light setting. This Max Light is used for very bright scenes. It is also used as the base-value for Max Light for dark to mid-level scenes. That is, the Low-ratio adjusts the transfer function using the bright scene Max Light as the base value. Changing this control will change the Display Max Light value in active CMS. We recommend setting CMS Max Light to 4 to 5 times the measured maximum light off the screen in nits for projectors. I use 4.5 times for our Lumagen Demo Theater’s JVC RS4500. For a bright TV with over 500 nits, this will typically be set to 1 to 2 times the display’s maximum light output. To change this in the “Left Arrow” menu, use left/right arrows to select the Max Light value and up/down arrows to adjust it. If you do not know the screen brightness in nits, you can use the scene I now use as a check. This is “The Meg” at (about) 1:08:35 where a man is swimming up to the overturned boat. Start at the previous scene, play up to the scene and then pause as the man is treading water very near the boat. Adjust Max Light up and down balancing scene brightness with optimal flesh tone.

Note that the LowRatio, the DynPad, and the DeSat, are specific to the current input and input memory. If you want all sources to have the changes you make applied, you need to use the MENU->Input->Copy command to copy from the current input and input memory to all inputs and all input memories. The Max Light parameter changes the value in the active output CMS and so changes the value for all inputs and input memories the use the active CMS (which at default is all inputs and all input memories).

Make sure to Save your changes.


----------



## skylarlove1999

jazzrock said:


> You’re an idiot just trying to stir up commotion....very childish.


Be the change you hope to see in the world


hellride said:


> Man, what are you doing around here? Are you just bored at home? You are not contributing anything useful to this thread.
> 
> Seriously, get a life!


Be the change you hope to see in the world


jazzrock said:


> No one is stuck anywhere. We can all travel freely. If anyone wants to start a thread for the sole purpose of discussing the performance of both units that would be the most appropriate way to create such conversation. This thread was not started for that purpose. Some have respect and class. Unfortunately not all do.


Be the change you hope to see in the world.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Unfortunately it says "Remote Control files are provded "as is" and are not supported by Lumagen"


I've worked in a not entirely disconnected sector and those product modules for Crestron/AMX etc had similar disclaimers as we didn't maintain them - they were made at some point in time (either under contract or as a favour!) by a 3rd party with the control system tools and we had no means to test, modify or improve them easily. But we could still offer basic information about what the modules actually did, and point you at people who could provide you with consulting services if you couldn't work on the modules yourself.

I don't believe any of this is obstacle to suitably qualified and capable control system installers. To be honest if it is, time to find a better one! The protocols are simple and very well documented.


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> I don't believe any of this is obstacle to suitably qualified and capable control system installers. To be honest if it is, time to find a better one!


Definitely, and that´s what i wrote as well.



> The protocols are simple and very well documented.


Well, we can discuss on the "simple" - there are much simpler (human readable) protocols out there. You can easily tell that this has been developed a long time ago and has grown over time.


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Well, we can discuss on the "simple" - there are much simpler (human readable) protocols out there. You can easily tell that this has been developed a long time ago and has grown over time.


Well sure, you can't automatically parse it into a data structure like if it was XML, but these are protocols being transacted over serial ports, that were / are still often having to be interpreted by cruddy microcontrollers or systems without brilliant interfaces or languages for programming. Footprint and economy is probably more valuable than human readability, and if you have the job of writing the parser yourself - instead of using some 3rd party library - I'd say they're simpler to parse, too. It's much easier to just grab characters 6,7 and 8 after a delimeter than having to parse a schema in a wall of text.

The Lumagen protocol I think strikes a fair balance of being pretty readable and economic, and is totally appropriate technology for the job. Maybe it might be nice if there additionally were a more chatty protocol on an IP interface for instance, but I'd rather efforts were spent elsewhere given this is perfectly functional. You certainly do want to have a short and snappy simple protocol too if you will also have a more human readable one; and just having the verbose human readable protocol can cause more problems than it solves (given we agree that anyone worth their job can understand the simple protocol easily).


----------



## Die Zwei

@bobof

I think that´s already too much discussion about a piece of the Lumagen that only a very small fraction of Lumagen owners will ever be in contact with. 
So perhaps we can agree on that the protocol just does what it´s supposed to do.


----------



## MOberhardt

alex_t said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> With FPGA Lumagen has been able to make very big evolutions in the Radiance since the Radiance exists : 3D, 3DLUT, Darbee, HDR, DTM are good examples.
> 
> 
> In ENVY thread it is clearly explained by madshi that due to nvidia drivers constraints the ENVY is not able to manage 3D at the moment and madshi does not even know if ENVY will manage it in the future. However ENVY is based on very last up to date CPU and GPU technology.


The whole PC based concept is part of what puts me off. And look at the power consumption figures they posted. 400w. It feels more prototype rather than bespoke. I mean just take a PC and try to get onto play UHD discs. The level of additional BS you have to go through is a joke, hardware, drivers, software. And then it can't even do 3d. I mean the target market of high end video processing and DTM is 4k projector owners, and 100% I think of these are 3d. And a bloated OS atthebase. The actual video processing program is so far down the chain of bloat and layers it Is a joke. Inefficient.


----------



## KarlKlammer

MOberhardt said:


> And look at the power consumption figures they posted. 400w.


 32w here while watching UHD content.
I find the supposed 'lack of processing power' handy.


----------



## Karl Maga

hockyAVS said:


> Well, before starting a thread, i asked if such a thread aleady exists. That doesn´t seem to be the case if i interpret your response correctly. So probably i´ll start such a thread indeed.
> However, given the hostility of people with "respect and class", i don´t think it will lead to a fruitful discussion...
> I think a 1:1 conversation with people "from both sides" will probably lead to a more useful outcome.


I’ve seen no evidence that you know what respect or class are.

It’s like the MadVR club came into a dinner club, farted, and are taken aback by the reaction of the diners.

Show some class and respect, and you’ll find it returned to you.


----------



## skylarlove1999

Usually when you say something negative about another person it reveals way more about yourself

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> I’ve seen no evidence that you know what respect or class are.
> *
> It’s like the MadVR club came into a dinner club, farted, and are taken aback by the reaction of the diners.*
> 
> Show some class and respect, and you’ll find it returned to you.


----------



## MOberhardt

Anyone here running Lumagen as a video processor only, at the rear of the room with the projector? Any issues with audio lag?


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> Allow me to add to what alex_t posted to correct the uninformed comments that someone posted on FPGAs.
> 
> .





blake said:


> Does the Radiance Pro have Crestron drivers available ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Quoted Jim to get his attention...

The Crestron Auto screen masking In the Lumagen is hit and miss - works for some AR's and not for others.
I have reported to Jima and so has my calibrator Adam (and others) Jim has told us that this will require re programming Crestron module and it is in his list down the road (but a lower priority).
It is a very cool feature so I have requested Jim to Hurry


----------



## blake

Ash Sharma said:


> Quoted Jim to get his attention...
> 
> 
> 
> The Crestron Auto screen masking In the Lumagen is hit and miss - works for some AR's and not for others.
> 
> I have reported to Jima and so has my calibrator Adam (and others) Jim has told us that this will require re programming Crestron module and it is in his list down the road (but a lower priority).
> 
> It is a very cool feature so I have requested Jim to Hurry



Is this a problem with the Lumagen auto AR detection function in general ?

If it’s not, and Lumagen AR detection is properly working , it seems odd that this cannot be passed on accurately to the Crestron driver (which is RS232-pretty basic/concrete communication)?


----------



## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> Anyone here running Lumagen as a video processor only, at the rear of the room with the projector? Any issues with audio lag?




Any audio lag can be compensated for. I only use mine for video except for the cable feed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> Any audio lag can be compensated for. I only use mine for video except for the cable feed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks

Yes, I guess so long as it is constant and (hopefully) known/published. If for example it was 5ms on blu ray but different for UHD and DTM, wouldn't you be playing about each title tweaking?

Regards the cable feed, what is the reason that is done separate? Just out of interest.


----------



## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I guess so long as it is constant and (hopefully) known/published. If for example it was 5ms on blu ray but different for UHD and DTM, wouldn't you be playing about each title tweaking?
> 
> 
> 
> Regards the cable feed, what is the reason that is done separate? Just out of interest.




My cable box only has one HDMI out, unlike 4K Blu-ray players with separate audio out. Kris Deering set the lag on the separate inputs using an audio test pattern made for lag detection. No problem since - everything is in sync !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Die Zwei

Karl Maga said:


> I’ve seen no evidence that you know what respect or class are.
> 
> It’s like the MadVR club came into a dinner club, farted, and are taken aback by the reaction of the diners.
> 
> Show some class and respect, and you’ll find it returned to you.


I´m sorry, i don´t think i wrote anything disrespectful in this thread. Perhaps you can point me to one so i can understand what you are referring to...
I´d also would like to ask you to not put me into a "madVR club" - i´m an individual who is looking for information on both the Envy and the Lumagen.
Video processors are a pile of metal and plastic people buy for a specific purpose - there´s no need at all to get emotional about it.




blake said:


> Is this a problem with the Lumagen auto AR detection function in general ?
> 
> If it’s not, and Lumagen AR detection is properly working , it seems odd that this cannot be passed on accurately to the Crestron driver (which is RS232-pretty basic/concrete communication)?


I guess that´s probably referring to what i found in the Crestron driver as well (see my post from yesterday 12:09pm): the driver gives direct feedback only on a fraction of ARs available. The rest needs to be parsed "by hand" out of the serial communication stream (as you already mentioned). But that´s not a problem.


----------



## SJHT

Ash Sharma said:


> Quoted Jim to get his attention...
> 
> The Crestron Auto screen masking In the Lumagen is hit and miss - works for some AR's and not for others.
> I have reported to Jima and so has my calibrator Adam (and others) Jim has told us that this will require re programming Crestron module and it is in his list down the road (but a lower priority).
> It is a very cool feature so I have requested Jim to Hurry


If you use Kaleidescape, you can get the AR info directly from that source. It is very accurate as that data is stored per movie title. No Lumagen needed to get that info for triggering masking, etc. SJ


----------



## OMARDRIS

hockyAVS said:


> - i´m an individual who is looking for information on both the Envy and the Lumagen.


Unfortunately, this is not entirely true.
You are a home cinema dealer from Germany who does not sell Lumagen products but wants to sell the Envy and your appearance here in the Radiance thread is mainly to promote another product that is not yet on the market.
You showed up here in the Radiance thread at the exact time after the Envy was announced and you are always trying to get the word "Envy" back in. The pseudo-comparisons with an announced product only serve to collect arguments for the future distribution.
This is pure marketing and advertising and that's why we are getting annoyed here.


----------



## Ash Sharma

blake said:


> Is this a problem with the Lumagen auto AR detection function in general ?
> 
> If it’s not, and Lumagen AR detection is properly working , it seems odd that this cannot be passed on accurately to the Crestron driver (which is RS232-pretty basic/concrete communication)?


Jim said that he has to contact the programmer who built the Crestron program for Lumagen and get him to fix this.



SJHT said:


> If you use Kaleidescape, you can get the AR info directly from that source. It is very accurate as that data is stored per movie title. No Lumagen needed to get that info for triggering masking, etc. SJ


That defeats the purpose of such a awesome feature of Lumagen - it shifts AR (masking) for all sources into it - including streamers and whatever input is thrown at it... I love this feature and even when working broken.
I was told by a very prominent calibrator that although a lot of people using Lumagen love the AR feature they don't own masking screens so people with Crestron Systems and Masking are not many - so I can understand we are in the Lower pecking order for Lumagen.

I know Lon hired his own Crestron programmer and got it to work - I cannot find a programmer to do this...


----------



## SJHT

I was not suggesting replacing the Lumagen with K info, but rather supplementing to get better results for that source. It even works perfectly when doing scripts and is fast. Just my .02c.... SJ


----------



## Die Zwei

Hi Omardris,



OMARDRIS said:


> Unfortunately, this is not entirely true.
> You are a home cinema dealer from Germany who does not sell Lumagen products but wants to sell the Envy and your appearance here in the Radiance thread is mainly to promote another product that is not yet on the market.
> You showed up here in the Radiance thread at the exact time after the Envy was announced and you are always trying to get the word "Envy" back in. The pseudo-comparisons with an announced product only serve to collect arguments for the future distribution.
> This is pure marketing and advertising and that's why we are getting annoyed here.


nice to meet you here as well. 

Even a dealer is an individual.  
As you probably know, we´re currently just starting our business and looking into setting up our portfolio.
We´re interested in the Envy and will most likely sell it, but we´re also looking into selling Lumagen (you probably know my business partner already had it in his portfolio but didn´t really advertise it).
We´re also looking installing a Lumagen in one of our showrooms and an Envy in the second.
That´s the reason why i would like to understand pros and cons of the two systems to provide a solution to our customers that fits.
I´m also in contact with oto to help me create a comparison between the Lumagen and the Envy, since i´ve got the impression that he has good knowledge of the capabilities of the Lumagen. (so far for your very polite "pseudo" in your comment above.)

However, i apologize for not communicating that i´m a ("soon to be") dealer indeed here in the thread. I did in the Envy-thread, but didn´t do it here.


----------



## LJG

Ash Sharma said:


> Quoted Jim to get his attention...
> 
> The Crestron Auto screen masking In the Lumagen is hit and miss - works for some AR's and not for others.
> I have reported to Jima and so has my calibrator Adam (and others) Jim has told us that this will require re programming Crestron module and it is in his list down the road (but a lower priority).
> It is a very cool feature so I have requested Jim to Hurry


AS I have stated to you numerous times Ash, the Crestron Module is the culprit not the Lumagen, there are workarounds that my programmer has written that control not only the Stewart screen masking but in addition the lens memory for my Sony 5000ES. In my experience with Crestron Modules, they need to be debugged more often than not. The Aspect Ratio control has been functioning at 100 percent accuracy for over a year in my system.


----------



## Karl Maga

Perhaps this thread would benefit from some attention from @DrDon. 

While comparative discussions can be an appropriate line of discussion, not everyone knows how to do so in moderation and with tact. When the community indicates they’d prefer a change in tenor from interloper trolls, and those trolls refuse to oblige, some adult supervision can be quite beneficial.

Just my humble request.


----------



## skylarlove1999

Karl Maga said:


> Perhaps this thread would benefit from some attention from @DrDon.
> 
> 
> 
> While comparative discussions can be an appropriate line of discussion, not everyone knows how to do so in moderation and with tact. When the community indicates they’d prefer a change in tenor from interloper trolls, and those trolls refuse to oblige, some adult supervision can be quite beneficial.
> 
> 
> 
> Just my humble request.


I do find it ironic the person talking about moderation and tact and asking for a moderator is the same person calling other members interloping trolls. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

hockyAVS said:


> Hi Omardris,
> 
> 
> 
> nice to meet you here as well.
> 
> Even a dealer is an individual.
> As you probably know, we´re currently just starting our business and looking into setting up our portfolio.
> We´re interested in the Envy and will most likely sell it, but we´re also looking into selling Lumagen (you probably know my business partner already had it in his portfolio but didn´t really advertise it).
> We´re also looking installing a Lumagen in one of our showrooms and an Envy in the second.
> That´s the reason why i would like to understand pros and cons of the two systems to provide a solution to our customers that fits.
> I´m also in contact with oto to help me create a comparison between the Lumagen and the Envy, since i´ve got the impression that he has good knowledge of the capabilities of the Lumagen. (so far for your very polite "pseudo" in your comment above.)
> 
> However, i apologize for not communicating that i´m a ("soon to be") dealer indeed here in the thread. I did in the Envy-thread, but didn´t do it here.


As you are interested in "full disclosure", why don't you update your AVS Public Profile to state that you are a specific dealer in Germany?

And why don't you start your own thread comparing the Lumagen vs Envy and those interested will participate and then no one has a reason to be upset?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

skylarlove1999 said:


> I do find it ironic the person talking about moderation and tact and asking for a moderator is the same person calling other members interloping trolls.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I thought you said the other day (as you do not own and have no interest in owning a Lumagen) that you were leaving this thread?

If you are interested in discussing the relative merits of the Lumagen Radiance Pro vs Envy, again I suggest that you start your own thread discussing this and interested folks will partake.


----------



## Die Zwei

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> As you are interested in "full disclosure", why don't you update your AVS Public Profile to state that you are a specific dealer in Germany?
> 
> And why don't you start your own thread comparing the Lumagen vs Envy and those interested will participate and then no one has a reason to be upset?


Profile update: done.

Start of new thread: let me collect some info to start with, then i´ll do that as well. My fear is that it won´t lead to a fruitful discussion, but i´ll try it.


----------



## skylarlove1999

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I thought you said the other day (as you do not own and have no interest in owning a Lumagen) that you were leaving this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> If you are interested in discussing the relative merits of the Lumagen Radiance Pro vs Envy, again I suggest that you start your own thread discussing this and interested folks will partake.


I never said I wasn't interested in owning a Lumagen . I like having options. That is a good suggestion to start a comparison thread. Thanks for your input. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I thought you said the other day (as you do not own and have no interest in owning a Lumagen) that you were leaving this thread?
> 
> If you are interested in discussing the relative merits of the Lumagen Radiance Pro vs Envy, again I suggest that you start your own thread discussing this and interested folks will partake.





hockyAVS said:


> Profile update: done.
> 
> Start of new thread: let me collect some info to start with, then i´ll do that as well. My fear is that it won´t lead to a fruitful discussion, but i´ll try it.





skylarlove1999 said:


> I never said I wasn't interested in owning a Lumagen . I like having options. That is a good suggestion to start a comparison thread. Thanks for your input.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Thanks.

As for leading to a "fruitful discussion", lets face it, most folks are "envious" of their own AV products and if a thread is titled and started to discuss that product, folks get quite upset and the thread turns into a shouting match as opposed to a fruitful discussion of the particular product that the thead is about in the first place.

If you do a comparison thread, then those interested will participate and follow and have no reason to get so upset (though some may anyway)!

I have been a Lumagen owner since the company started. I doubt that I would ever switch. I am not interested in reading through an entire Envy thread. However, if you do a comparison thread, I just might follow it some and perhaps learn something. I think there are some others in the same boat.


----------



## Die Zwei

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Thanks.
> 
> As for leading to a "fruitful discussion", lets face it, most folks are "envious" of their own AV products and if a thread is titled and started to discuss that product, folks get quite upset and the thread turns into a shouting match as opposed to a fruitful discussion of the particular product that the thead is about in the first place.
> 
> If you do a comparison thread, then those interested will participate and follow and have no reason to get so upset (though some may anyway)!
> 
> I have been a Lumagen owner since the company started. I doubt that I would ever switch. I am not interested in reading through an entire Envy thread. However, if you do a comparison thread, I just might follow it some and perhaps learn something. I think there are some others in the same boat.


Thanks Steve for being so constructive on this topic.
The "shouting match" you describe is actually what i´m afraid of. My fear is that people will just jump into the thread to "protect" their "side" (i hate this separation). And as you said, a lot of people become very emotional on their technical gear, i don´t know why.

I promise to not come up with the "other product" anymore in this thread - but i hope it´s allowed to correct wrong statements about it in this thread. (same of course the other way round)


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

hockyAVS said:


> Thanks Steve for being so constructive on this topic.
> The "shouting match" you describe is actually what i´m afraid of. My fear is that people will just jump into the thread to "protect" their "side" (i hate this separation). And as you said, a lot of people become very emotional on their technical gear, i don´t know why.
> 
> I promise to not come up with the "other product" anymore in this thread - but i hope it´s allowed to correct wrong statements about it in this thread. (same of course the other way round)


If something comes up about the Envy in this thread that you feel is incorrect or misleading, I would simply copy and paste the post and insert it at the comparison thread, and simply remark at this thread with the link to the other thread where it is discussed. This should defuse arguments of Envy v Radiance Pro in this thread.


----------



## Mike Garrett

hockyAVS said:


> Thanks Steve for being so constructive on this topic.
> The "shouting match" you describe is actually what i´m afraid of. My fear is that people will just jump into the thread to "protect" their "side" (i hate this separation). And as you said, a lot of people become very emotional on their technical gear, i don´t know why.
> 
> I promise to not come up with the "other product" anymore in this thread - but i hope it´s allowed to correct wrong statements about it in this thread. (same of course the other way round)





Steve Bruzonsky said:


> If something comes up about the Envy in this thread that you feel is incorrect or misleading, I would simply copy and paste the post and insert it at the comparison thread, and simply remark at this thread with the link to the other thread where it is discussed. This should defuse arguments of Envy v Radiance Pro in this thread.


I do not see any problem making the correction in the same thread, where the statement was made. But often times you have to be careful doing this because I see statements made all the time, regarding one product being better than another, but it was based on setup. Like for example people have talked about not seeing much difference in an image between a high contrast projector and a low contrast projector. Obviously setup and room have a big effect on this. Same goes for when DTM performances are discussed, how well each system was setup will be a big factor in the results.


----------



## jrp

Ash Sharma said:


> Quoted Jim to get his attention...
> 
> The Crestron Auto screen masking In the Lumagen is hit and miss - works for some AR's and not for others.
> I have reported to Jim and so has my calibrator Adam (and others) Jim has told us that this will require re programming Crestron module and it is in his list down the road (but a lower priority).
> It is a very cool feature so I have requested Jim to Hurry


Our Crestron driver was written by a third party developer. The aspect ratio report in the Lumagen driver only supports some of the supported aspect ratios. It is not "hit and miss" as those supported work. Ash wants more supported (a reasonable request).

Emails for support to the driver developer have not been answered. So at this point we are talking to other Crestron driver developers to make the changes Ash is requesting.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mike Garrett said:


> But often times you have to be careful doing this because I see statements made all the time, regarding one product being better than another, but it was based on setup. Like for example people have talked about not seeing much difference in an image between a high contrast projector and a low contrast projector. Obviously setup and room have a big effect on this. Same goes for when DTM performances are discussed, how well each system was setup will be a big factor in the results.


That´s the reason why i want to do a feature / specs comparison and not a quality comparison.
So i would e.g. list DTM and scaling as a "yes" for both of them, but would not comment on the quality (if i do this, i´d expect to be killed the next day at the latest. )
A judgement on quality is sth i would expect from a real thoroughly made review / test, not as part of a simple feature / specs comparison.


----------



## blake

LJG said:


> AS I have stated to you numerous times Ash, the Crestron Module is the culprit not the Lumagen, there are workarounds that my programmer has written that control not only the Stewart screen masking but in addition the lens memory for my Sony 5000ES. In my experience with Crestron Modules, they need to be debugged more often than not. The Aspect Ratio control has been functioning at 100 percent accuracy for over a year in my system.




Are you using RS232 control ? (Probably as I don’t think IP control is supported by Lumagen)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Htnut2000

blake said:


> Are you using RS232 control ? (Probably as I don’t think IP control is supported by Lumagen)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Lumagen does not have an Ethernet port so therefore cannot support iP control.

If it had, it would use the same protocol as the rs232 but wrapped in a tcp/ip packet.

If you need to do this, there are many hardware products that convert RS232 to Ethernet


----------



## LJG

blake said:


> are you using rs232 control ? (probably as i don’t think ip control is supported by lumagen)
> 
> 
> sent from my iphone using tapatalk


rs232. We have the Crestron polling the Lumagen every 3 seconds for the aspect ratio.


----------



## Die Zwei

LJG said:


> rs232. We have the Crestron polling the Lumagen every 3 seconds for the aspect ratio.


Oh, you have to poll? You don´t get a push message from the Lumagen when ar changes?


----------



## SJHT

hockyAVS said:


> Oh, you have to poll? You don´t get a push message from the Lumagen when ar changes?


Not sure what he meant by polling, but you can get messages pushed from the Pro as described in this tech tip:

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Oh, you have to poll? You don´t get a push message from the Lumagen when ar changes?


There are "pushed" messages, enabled through the menu system, that is how I implemented mine. I guess different programmers prefer to do things differently. 

Bottom of Page 2 of the RS232 programming guide I linked to yesterday... They are called "unsolicited reports" in Lumagen lingo.

They >might< be inconvenient I guess if your screen controls has limitations, for example, like not liking being sent messages while in motion or similar. So I can see some reasons why you may prefer to implement things in a polled fashion which may be more predictable in your system context.


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> There are "pushed" messages, enabled through the menu system, that is how I implemented mine. I guess different programmers prefer to do things differently.
> 
> Bottom of Page 2 of the RS232 programming guide I linked to yesterday... They are called "unsolicited reports" in Lumagen lingo.


Excellent, that sounds much better.  In general, you try to avoid permanent polling since it puts load on both the control system and the device that´s being polled.


----------



## LJG

bobof said:


> There are "pushed" messages, enabled through the menu system, that is how I implemented mine. I guess different programmers prefer to do things differently.
> 
> Bottom of Page 2 of the RS232 programming guide I linked to yesterday... They are called "unsolicited reports" in Lumagen lingo.
> 
> They >might< be inconvenient I guess if your screen controls has limitations, for example, like not liking being sent messages while in motion or similar. So I can see some reasons why you may prefer to implement things in a polled fashion which may be more predictable in your system context.


I really don't know the how's and why's just that before my programmer did this the results were inconsistent at best, but after it was 100 percent accurate. Just trying to assist those with Crestron issues and Aspect Ratio control. I am by no means a programmer.


----------



## blake

LJG said:


> I really don't know the how's and why's just that before my programmer did this the results were inconsistent at best, but after it was 100 percent accurate. Just trying to assist those with Crestron issues and Aspect Ratio control. I am by no means a programmer.




Maybe this is the issue Jim referrer to with the Crestron driver ... not passing Auto AR properly. 

I agree it would be better to push an AR change report to Crestron so it can then notify your masking system r


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> Maybe this is the issue Jim referrer to with the Crestron driver ... not passing Auto AR properly.
> 
> I agree it would be better to push an AR change report to Crestron so it can then notify your masking system r


The aspect is reported correctly using the "auto report" feature. When anything that is selected to be reported changes, the Pro sends out an unsolicited report. Use "full v2" if you need source aspect (this report is the same format as the ZQI22 response). I checked and a 1.33 aspect source reported as 1.33 source content aspect correctly on a 16:9 raster HD source. The aspect reports are in hundredths (e.g. 178 is 16:9).

Note: I did some testing tonight and the auto report failed to report a change after an input selection change that should have initiated an auto-report. Changes after the input select (e.g. rate, dynamic range, aspect) were then reported. I sent a bug report to Pat to check into this. We should get this sorted soon, but you can send a ZQI22 after an input select (wait perhaps 5 seconds after the selection) which would force the report out in the mean time.

We recommend against implementing status checks with a polling loop. Not a good idea for either the controller or the Pro.

======= 

You can enable the auto report feature in the MENU -> Other -> I/O Setup -> RS-232 Setup -> Report mode changes sub-menu. Use "full v2" if you want everything. 

You can enable RS-232 unsolicited reporting of mode changes. This is useful for control systems that need to take action when a mode change occurs that was not initiated by the control system. If enabled, when a mode change that would be reported by current selection occurs the Radiance will send a string reporting the new mode information as if an RS-232 query command was sent. “Full v2” uses the ZQI22 response and is only available for Radiance Pro models. “Full” uses the ZQI21 response and is only available on Radiance 2XXX and Radiance Pro models. “Output” uses the ZQO01” response. “Input” sends two responses on a mode change (ZQI01 followed by ZQI18).The command is: 
MENU->Other->I/O Setup->RS-232 Setup->Report mode changes->(Off,Input,Output,Full,Fullv2,SDR/HDR)

It recently was pointed out that there is a typo in the RS232 tech tip on our support page. The ZQI22 fields for AAA, and SSS are both for the input aspect (AAA incorrectly says output aspect in the tech tip). The AAA field is the raster aspect, and SSS is the content aspect. As an example for a UHD 2.40 movie, AAA is 178, and SSS is 240. 

Here is the corrected version for the ZQI22, and "auto report full v2," that I will get into a new version of the Tech Tip 11 soon:

Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
D= Source 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
X= Active input config number for current input resolution
AAA= Source raster aspect (e.g. 178 for HD or UHD)
SSS= Source content aspect (e.g. 240 for 2.40)
Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
C= Active Output CMS (0 to 7)
B= Active Output Style (0 to 7)
PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
QQQQ= Output vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
F= Source dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
G= Source Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)

NOTICE: When writing a parser for this command allow for future comma delimited fields being added at the end of the response.


----------



## audioguy

I have a question relating to having the masking system respond each time the Lumagen tells it about the aspect ratio. I use Control4. 

I use a Nvidia Shield running Plex to play my ripped movies. And currently, the masks are set at 2:35 when I select the Shield. The menu system of the Shield/Plex setup is at 16 x 9. By menu system, I mean the spot where it displays all of my movie folder options, and the movie wall, etc. But then, when I select the movie, the vast majority of time the AR is 2:35.

So if I had the masking system respond each time when it got a change of AR from the Lumagen, it would be go from open when I selected the Shield, then close when the menu system displayed and then open again when the movie started. That would put undo burden on the masking system motors, etc and since the company that built is went out of business (Masquerade), I would prefer not to have that sequence occur.

So how would I go about having the programming done (control the masks from the Lumagen) without having the above example occur?


----------



## dlinsley

audioguy said:


> So how would I go about having the programming done (control the masks from the Lumagen) without having the above example occur?


I think you would need to program in other heuristics, such as:


Only change masking when it switches from 16:9 to a wider aspect
On Input changes
On user specified aspect changes (I pressed the 16:9 button)
30s after a change back to 16:9


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> I have a question relating to having the masking system respond each time the Lumagen tells it about the aspect ratio. I use Control4.
> 
> I use a Nvidia Shield running Plex to play my ripped movies. And currently, the masks are set at 2:35 when I select the Shield. The menu system of the Shield/Plex setup is at 16 x 9. By menu system, I mean the spot where it displays all of my movie folder options, and the movie wall, etc. But then, when I select the movie, the vast majority of time the AR is 2:35.
> 
> So if I had the masking system respond each time when it got a change of AR from the Lumagen, it would be go from open when I selected the Shield, then close when the menu system displayed and then open again when the movie started. That would put undo burden on the masking system motors, etc and since the company that built is went out of business (Masquerade), I would prefer not to have that sequence occur.
> 
> So how would I go about having the programming done (control the masks from the Lumagen) without having the above example occur?


I've talked to a lot of my clients about this that are thinking about having their masks auto switch based on the AR detection of the Lumagen, which I feel is a mistake for exactly the reasons you mention. I have a motorized masking system as well and it would drive me insane to have it switch every time the aspect switches (especially if I'm only bringing up a menu or something along those lines). I always recommend that people just program a button on their remote that manually does the masks when they absolute know they want to use them. What is one button push when you know you want it vs the annoyance of the masks moving simply because of something stupid like a production company trailer before the movie that is a different aspect ratio or using the pop up menu.


----------



## LJG

Kris Deering said:


> I've talked to a lot of my clients about this that are thinking about having their masks auto switch based on the AR detection of the Lumagen, which I feel is a mistake for exactly the reasons you mention. I have a motorized masking system as well and it would drive me insane to have it switch every time the aspect switches (especially if I'm only bringing up a menu or something along those lines). I always recommend that people just program a button on their remote that manually does the masks when they absolute know they want to use them. What is one button push when you know you want it vs the annoyance of the masks moving simply because of something stupid like a production company trailer before the movie that is a different aspect ratio or using the pop up menu.


Exactly Kris. I have Button On/Off Auto Aspect, I leave it off until movie is ready to play....


----------



## Die Zwei

LJG said:


> Exactly Kris. I have Button On/Off Auto Aspect, I leave it off until movie is ready to play....



Yes, that´s a good example that it doesn´t make sense to automate everything. 
An automation that does weird things from time to time creates a feeling of discomfort instead of bringing comfort to the user.
The way described above is a good example how to create a feeling of having everything under control: when the user thinks it´s a good time to leave the situation to the automation system, you can do that by pressing the Auto Aspect On/Off button mentioned above.

It´s a similar situation with movies with changing ar - i want to keep the masking in one position and don´t want the mask to move back and forth when ar changes.


----------



## SJHT

I actually have a flag which I can set which turns on/off automatic masking. When off, I can just control with a button. Best of both worlds....


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> I've talked to a lot of my clients about this that are thinking about having their masks auto switch based on the AR detection of the Lumagen, which I feel is a mistake for exactly the reasons you mention. I have a motorized masking system as well and it would drive me insane to have it switch every time the aspect switches (especially if I'm only bringing up a menu or something along those lines). I always recommend that people just program a button on their remote that manually does the masks when they absolute know they want to use them. What is one button push when you know you want it vs the annoyance of the masks moving simply because of something stupid like a production company trailer before the movie that is a different aspect ratio or using the pop up menu.





LJG said:


> Exactly Kris. I have Button On/Off Auto Aspect, I leave it off until movie is ready to play....





SJHT said:


> I actually have a flag which I can set which turns on/off automatic masking. When off, I can just control with a button. Best of both worlds....


Automatic masking with a On/Off button would be my preference.
I have a different opinion than Kris as I have family members who can sit through a entire movie (and once I did my watching shape of water in 2:40) without knowing the AR.


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> Automatic masking with a On/Off button would be my preference.
> I have a different opinion than Kris as I have family members who can sit through a entire movie (and once I did my watching shape of water in 2:40) without knowing the AR.


I prefer to have it automated if I'm honest. My room is used by folk who aren't techies and I want them to get the best out of it without having insider knowledge.

I think opinion may be different if you have top / bottom masks on 16:9 (like I have) vs left / right for a scope screen with masking. My masks are moved very quick and neither the image scales nor the lens needs to zoom / shift (nor an A lens flip in), so it is a very seamless experience. (scope screen with masks makes no sense in my room due to size).

There is something pretty magical in operation about selecting a movie and having the masks move as it starts. Usually I find due to JVC sync delay my masks are in position before the image is back on the screen - which looks super-smooth.


----------



## LJG

Ash Sharma said:


> Automatic masking with a On/Off button would be my preference.
> I have a different opinion than Kris as I have family members who can sit through a entire movie (and once I did my watching shape of water in 2:40) without knowing the AR.


It's really nice to just sit back when movie is starting and let the automation begin not worrying about selecting correct A/R. Then turn A/R off when movie begins and free to pause rewind fast forward etc....Even Kscape gets A/R wrong in the movie info tabs but not the Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've talked to a lot of my clients about this that are thinking about having their masks auto switch based on the AR detection of the Lumagen, which I feel is a mistake for exactly the reasons you mention. I have a motorized masking system as well and it would drive me insane to have it switch every time the aspect switches (especially if I'm only bringing up a menu or something along those lines). I always recommend that people just program a button on their remote that manually does the masks when they absolute know they want to use them. What is one button push when you know you want it vs the annoyance of the masks moving simply because of something stupid like a production company trailer before the movie that is a different aspect ratio or using the pop up menu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LJG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly Kris. I have Button On/Off Auto Aspect, I leave it off until movie is ready to play....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SJHT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually have a flag which I can set which turns on/off automatic masking. When off, I can just control with a button. Best of both worlds..../forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Automatic masking with a On/Off button would be my preference.
> I have a different opinion than Kris as I have family members who can sit through a entire movie (and once I did my watching shape of water in 2:40) without knowing the AR.
Click to expand...

But the AR would never be wrong. I would still have the Lumagen do its auto aspect, which would guarantee the right aspect for viewing. I just don’t want a motorized mask working from this where it wants to change with every change. I select my masks manually, not my AR.


----------



## SJHT

LJG said:


> It's really nice to just sit back when movie is starting and let the automation begin not worrying about selecting correct A/R. Then turn A/R off when movie begins and free to pause rewind fast forward etc....Even Kscape gets A/R wrong in the movie info tabs but not the Lumagen.


If you find an incorrect movie AR in K, send them a note and they will correct it. Also, I've seen where the movie info was wrong, but the AR control commands to the K system resulted in the correct AR. SJ


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> Our Crestron driver was written by a third party developer. The aspect ratio report in the Lumagen driver only supports some of the supported aspect ratios. It is not "hit and miss" as those supported work. Ash wants more supported (a reasonable request).
> 
> Emails for support to the driver developer have not been answered. So at this point we are talking to other Crestron driver developers to make the changes Ash is requesting.


Jim,
Thanks for giving attention to this very cool feature for us Crestron users.... I appreciate this very much and look forward to its implementation when time permits.
Ash


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> But the AR would never be wrong. I would still have the Lumagen do its auto aspect, which would guarantee the right aspect for viewing. I just don’t want a motorized mask working from this where it wants to change with every change. I select my masks manually, not my AR.



Do you let the Lumagen push the projector into a specific installation mode/lens memory based on source AR? 

Wouldn’t this cause the same issue as auto AR motorized masking (ie lens shifting back and forth constantly as you jump thru BluRay / ATV menus etc)


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> Do you let the Lumagen push the projector into a specific installation mode/lens memory based on source AR?
> 
> Wouldn’t this cause the same issue as auto AR motorized masking (ie lens shifting back and forth constantly as you jump thru BluRay / ATV menus etc)


No, in my setup I have a DCR lens. But you would only use the AR stuff in the Lumagen if you were using a FIXED lens position (no changes in zoom). You don't need an A-lens, it works well for anyone with a scope screen, but you don't use it in conjunction with zooming (since the zoom changes effectively do the same thing).


----------



## Mike Garrett

Kris Deering said:


> I've talked to a lot of my clients about this that are thinking about having their masks auto switch based on the AR detection of the Lumagen, which I feel is a mistake for exactly the reasons you mention. I have a motorized masking system as well and it would drive me insane to have it switch every time the aspect switches (especially if I'm only bringing up a menu or something along those lines). I always recommend that people just program a button on their remote that manually does the masks when they absolute know they want to use them. What is one button push when you know you want it vs the annoyance of the masks moving simply because of something stupid like a production company trailer before the movie that is a different aspect ratio or using the pop up menu.


Yep, that is why I use IR control on my current masking screen and ordered IR control on my new masking screen.


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> No, in my setup I have a DCR lens. But you would only use the AR stuff in the Lumagen if you were using a FIXED lens position (no changes in zoom). You don't need an A-lens, it works well for anyone with a scope screen, but you don't use it in conjunction with zooming (since the zoom changes effectively do the same thing).




It would still be nice to have the option to turn an “Auto AR” feature on/off for non tech savvy family members (like SJHT and HockyAVS mentioned). For this to work, even on a scope screen without a DCR lens, wouldn’t you need the Lumagen to tell your projector what the source AR is to trigger the appropriate zoom and lens shift (or simply “installation mode” on the JVCs) (and with motorized masking, tell the screen what to do as well)? 

I didn’t think projectors could auto detect AR (ex rs4500)?


----------



## Mike Garrett

LJG said:


> It's really nice to just sit back when movie is starting and let the automation begin not worrying about selecting correct A/R. Then turn A/R off when movie begins and free to pause rewind fast forward etc....Even Kscape gets A/R wrong in the movie info tabs but not the Lumagen.


What if you forget to turn off and someone else fires up the system next time, not knowing or thinking about this button?


----------



## Mike Garrett

blake said:


> It would still be nice to have the option to turn an “Auto AR” feature on/off for non tech savvy family members (like SJHT and HockyAVS mentioned). For this to work, even on a scope screen without a DCR lens, wouldn’t you need the Lumagen to tell your projector what the source AR is to trigger the appropriate zoom and lens shift (or simply “installation mode” on the JVCs) (and with motorized masking, tell the screen what to do as well)?
> 
> I didn’t think projectors could auto detect AR (ex rs4500)?


I see problems, when someone forgets to turn it off auto masking per aspect ratio and a non tech person fires up the system for next use.


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike Garrett said:


> I see problems, when someone forgets to turn it off auto masking per aspect ratio and a non tech person fires up the system for next use.


I need my wife to need me and keep me around for at least 3 things - 

1 - Cooking great food for her. 
2 - running the home theater for her.
3 - that other fun thing. 

If you automate everything in the theater, pretty soon the women will be ordering Doordash and using electric " cuticle massagers " and we will be in big trouble.


----------



## SJHT

Mike Garrett said:


> What if you forget to turn off and someone else fires up the system next time, not knowing or thinking about this button?


My system turns on the auto AR including masking on every startup. I can then push a button to turn it off. I especially turn off when I’m just doing testing as I’m selecting lots of movies/scenes. SJ


----------



## bobof

I guess this is the beauty of a well designed CI system - bringing together the know how of the professionals with the requirements and preferences of the end user. 

In my room I automate everything together based on the HT activities, but bearing in mind the audience as the wife and kid and sometimes guests use the room without me. For example, turning off the HT brings up the house lights, turning on the HT activities drops all the light to off except for some very dark at the back of the room to keep the room safe for folk who don't know it so well when I'm not there (still much darker than a commercial theatre, barely measurable effect on screen). When I'm there an additional press takes out the very last bit of light for maximum viewing pleasure.

I'll probably try and implement some kind of holdoff on the AA switch at some point just to avoid masks opening for chapter skipping operations. It would be nice to be able to tune the AA delays a little. There were some commands added a little while ago to allow AA to be temporarily disabled which I may try and use, I'll feed back if I get some useful behaviour out of them.


----------



## FenceMan

I know this is probably very low on the list of priorities but any chance the ability to change the HDMI input from "Video" to "PC" will ever be active?


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> It would still be nice to have the option to turn an “Auto AR” feature on/off for non tech savvy family members (like SJHT and HockyAVS mentioned). For this to work, even on a scope screen without a DCR lens, wouldn’t you need the Lumagen to tell your projector what the source AR is to trigger the appropriate zoom and lens shift (or simply “installation mode” on the JVCs) (and with motorized masking, tell the screen what to do as well)?
> 
> I didn’t think projectors could auto detect AR (ex rs4500)?


Projectors do not auto detect and the Lumagen doesn't tell the projector the aspect. This function is strictly for those that leave a single zoom (full width) and have the scaling do the aspect in the Lumagen or for those with a DCR lens (does essentially the same thing). Makes it completely automatic for members that don't know how to do any of the other stuff.


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> Projectors do not auto detect and the Lumagen doesn't tell the projector the aspect. This function is strictly for those that leave a single zoom (full width) and have the scaling do the aspect in the Lumagen or for those with a DCR lens (does essentially the same thing). Makes it completely automatic for members that don't know how to do any of the other stuff.




But say you had a native scope screen with side masking and wanted the projector to switch installation modes, to zoom in or out between 2:40 and 16:9 content automatically based on the source material AR. Could you not tap into the auto AR feature of the Lumagen, so it tells your automation system (ex Crestron via rs232) to switch to the proper installation mode on JVC projector (IP command Crestron to projector to zoom and lens shift based on source AR), and move the motorized masking (ex RS232 command from Crestron to Seymour screen)? 

I know the Lumagen can’t do this by itself, but with an automation system this should work, no ?


----------



## Die Zwei

blake said:


> But say you had a native scope screen with side masking and wanted the projector to switch installation modes, to zoom in or out between 2:40 and 16:9 content automatically based on the source material AR. Could you not tap into the auto AR feature of the Lumagen, so it tells your automation system (ex Crestron via rs232) to switch to the proper installation mode on JVC projector (IP command Crestron to projector to zoom and lens shift based on source AR), and move the motorized masking (ex RS232 command from Crestron to Seymour screen)?
> 
> I know the Lumagen can’t do this by itself, but with an automation system this should work, no ?


Sure - that´s standard stuff.


----------



## stefanop

I've programmed in a way that I read every push message, when I read an AR change:
1) put AR for motorized screen in a buffer and start waiting for 40 secs.
2) after 40 secs I send the command to motorized screen
3) otherwise, if a new message with AR change comes in, I reset buffer with the new AR for motorized screen and start waiting for 40 secs. (...step 1)
I chose 40 secs because 35 seconds is the average time I need to perform an action with a player. When the player shows some onscreen info the radiance changes AR and then, when the onscreen info is faded away, the radiance restore the movie AR. In this way the curtains stay fixed in the movie AR.


----------



## Mike Garrett

SJHT said:


> My system turns on the auto AR including masking on every startup. I can then push a button to turn it off. I especially turn off when I’m just doing testing as I’m selecting lots of movies/scenes. SJ


Isn't automaticlly turning on auto masking on startup a problem with menus that switch aspect ratios? I thought that was what people were trying to avoid?


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> I guess this is the beauty of a well designed CI system - bringing together the know how of the professionals with the requirements and preferences of the end user.
> 
> In my room I automate everything together based on the HT activities, but bearing in mind the audience as the wife and kid and sometimes guests use the room without me. For example, turning off the HT brings up the house lights, turning on the HT activities drops all the light to off except for some very dark at the back of the room to keep the room safe for folk who don't know it so well when I'm not there (still much darker than a commercial theatre, barely measurable effect on screen). When I'm there an additional press takes out the very last bit of light for maximum viewing pleasure.
> 
> I'll probably try and implement some kind of holdoff on the AA switch at some point just to avoid masks opening for chapter skipping operations. It would be nice to be able to tune the AA delays a little. There were some commands added a little while ago to allow AA to be temporarily disabled which I may try and use, I'll feed back if I get some useful behaviour out of them.


I have auto aspect control, so that takes care of image sizing. The lights are controlled by voice, so no one has a problem with that. The masking is the only thing that requires a button press and even if they skip that, it is not the end of the world, watching 16:9 content on a scope screen.


----------



## bobof

Having thought about this a bit more, three points stand out:
1) False aspect triggers from menus etc are almost 100% in a single direction - ie from wider ratios (like 2.4:1) having an OSD displayed in the mask areas over the image. So you're likely very safe to immediately switch aspect when you detect the new AR is wider than the current AR. That could be done in the control system - I'm probably going to set mine to do this. So only wider to narrower aspect changes would enter the delay queue you talk about @stefanop.
2) The piece of the puzzle that is arguably missing to make educated wide to narrow decisions (eg 2.4 to 1.78) is an attempt to unpick whether this is an overlay or not that you could just ignore. It seems like it could be done by seeing if it still appears that there is evidence of a bar at the location there previously was a bar at (inspite of there being other OSD junk in the bar area) and somehow flagging that this might be an overlay to the control system (maybe it could be a "fuzzy" aspect change). You could then switch ratio immediately if it looks like it is obviously a ratio change, or delay switching if the ratio change is fuzzy...) Unfortunately 2) could only be done with some image processing input. 
3) In the case of some obvious previous key presses during playback it would be appropriate not to delay changing from 2.4 to 1.78. Eg if you had pressed stop or exit in the seconds before aspect change is detected, then it would make sense to change ratio immediately as it is almost certainly due to a full screen menu.


----------



## audioguy

^^ I've given up on having the Lumagen move the masks. I am adding two new buttons on my remote (rather having my integrator do it) to open and close them.


----------



## SJHT

Mike Garrett said:


> Isn't automaticlly turning on auto masking on startup a problem with menus that switch aspect ratios? I thought that was what people were trying to avoid?


Maybe simpler for me as I only primarily use Kaleidescape and that would be what someone other than myself might watch when I'm not present. Anyway, if someone in my family uses our system, they they turn it on, pull up the Kaleidescape movie titles menu (in 16:9), and then select a movie. If the movie selected is 2.4 AR, then the movie starts, image is lowered to the bottom of the screen and top masking comes down. Also, K allows me to reconfigure the screen size to a 2.4 aspect ratio and therefore ALL the K menus will just stay within that AR. That might be different than other sources. 

When they are done and hit stop, the image is restored to 16:9, the K movie title screen comes backup, and the masking is raised. So, the only masking that ever happens is when going from one movie to another and not any menus used in an actual movie playing. I turn off auto masking when I'm doing lots of testing and therefore going between many movie/scenes and having fun..  SJ


----------



## Ash Sharma

I am so glad that the AVS community is bringing out this very important feature we all love of Lumagen Pro - AR Masking Auto in discussion. And Jim Peterson @jrp participating in this thread - it is truly a very important feature of the Pro - I want mine with Crestron to work and work all the time reliably and perfectly.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Similar to AR I guess....

Is it possible for the Lumagen to send a signal (either direct or through some integration) to a JVC projector and select the lens profile based on the ratio of the screen?

Thanks


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Similar to AR I guess....
> 
> Is it possible for the Lumagen to send a signal (either direct or through some integration) to a JVC projector and select the lens profile based on the ratio of the screen?


Not directly, no. The Lumagen can't conditionally send out messages in other devices' protocols - it only sends out its own protocol. 

Indirectly, of course. This sort of "glue logic" is the bread and butter of control systems. A control system can take input from one device, make a decision, and perform an operation on another device. So your control system would parse the output of the Lumagen over RS232 and then send appropriate IP or RS232 commands to the projector. 

I do very similar to this using just a Raspberry Pi to set a JVC X7900 projector to different user modes based on whether the input is HDR or not, but I know for a fact you can change lens memories over IP as I did that for a friend's RS4500 (he wanted it based on an IR signal rather than automatically, but same difference - just a different trigger).

Added benefit of doing lens memory control over IP on the JVC units is you don't get the onscreen messages from the projector that you do when doing it over IR. That's the reason my friend wanted this doing, to get rid of those messages.


----------



## DannyBoy73

bobof said:


> Not directly, no. The Lumagen can't conditionally send out messages in other devices' protocols - it only sends out its own protocol.
> 
> Indirectly, of course. This sort of "glue logic" is the bread and butter of control systems. A control system can take input from one device, make a decision, and perform an operation on another device. So your control system would parse the output of the Lumagen over RS232 and then send appropriate IP or RS232 commands to the projector.
> 
> I do very similar to this using just a Raspberry Pi to set a JVC X7900 projector to different user modes based on whether the input is HDR or not, but I know for a fact you can change lens memories over IP as I did that for a friend's RS4500 (he wanted it based on an IR signal rather than automatically, but same difference - just a different trigger).
> 
> Added benefit of doing lens memory control over IP on the JVC units is you don't get the onscreen messages from the projector that you do when doing it over IR. That's the reason my friend wanted this doing, to get rid of those messages.


Thanks @bobof!

What software do you run on the Pi to link the two together? Does the x7900 support IP control too?

Also, my Lumagen is setup to output non-HDR if the input is non-HDR but if the input is HDR, then that's what my Lumagen outputs. Why would you need to switch user modes?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ash Sharma said:


> I am so glad that the AVS community is bringing out this very important feature we all love of Lumagen Pro - AR Masking Auto in discussion. And Jim Peterson @jrp participating in this thread - it is truly a very important feature of the Pro -* I want mine with Crestron to work and work all the time reliably and perfectly*.


That is part of the problem. You pop in a disc and if you watch previews, the aspect ratio can be changing back and forth quite often. I would not want my masking opening and closing every time it changed. Especially when the movie I am getting ready to watch is scope to begin with. Or let's say I am watching a scope movie and I pause it, I do not want the masking closing or if I fast forward, I do not want the masking closing. This is why my masking is a button press.


----------



## Kris Deering

DannyBoy73 said:


> Thanks @bobof!
> 
> What software do you run on the Pi to link the two together? Does the x7900 support IP control too?
> 
> Also, my Lumagen is setup to output non-HDR if the input is non-HDR but if the input is HDR, then that's what my Lumagen outputs. Why would you need to switch user modes?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Maybe the wording is off here, but the Lumagen should NOT be outputting actual HDR to your JVC if the input is HDR. It should be outputting SDR2020. You DO NOT want the JVC doing the tone mapping, you want the Lumagen to do this. 

You'd also want a different user mode on the projector because the picture setup is different for SDR than it is for HDR.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike Garrett said:


> That is part of the problem. You pop in a disc and if you watch previews, the aspect ratio can be changing back and forth quite often. I would not want my masking opening and closing every time it changed. Especially when the movie I am getting ready to watch is scope to begin with. Or let's say I am watching a scope movie and I pause it, I do not want the masking closing or if I fast forward, I do not want the masking closing. This is why my masking is a button press.


Exactly what I was talking about before. There are way too many scenarios that exist that would make the masking system move unnecessarily that would become frustrating. I'm all for the auto aspect changes of the image, but I'd rather dictate when the masks move with a button, just to avoid this.


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Thanks @bobof!
> 
> What software do you run on the Pi to link the two together? Does the x7900 support IP control too?
> 
> Also, my Lumagen is setup to output non-HDR if the input is non-HDR but if the input is HDR, then that's what my Lumagen outputs. Why would you need to switch user modes?


I wrote a script myself in Python, using some of the ARVE script as a basis for the JVC comms. I did copy and paste an early version of the script somewhere in the thread at some point. If you're into programming it is a couple of leisurely evening's work to get your head round, if you're not then it's probably not a great project to start to learn with...! 

The X7900 does indeed support IP comms.

As @Kris Deering has mentioned the Lumagen for best use with a JVC should be outputting SDR 2.4 gamma for both SDR and HDR, likely with different light output set for each (via lamp mode / iris / filter setting / etc). You may have the HDR flag set by the Lumagen to switch automatically into one of the HDR modes. However; the HDR modes are limited in what you can do profiling-wise as they are not linear at the input code space edges, so I use two user modes for SDR and HDR both with profile off. To use a usermode for HDR you cannot use the HDR flag (at least not on X7900) - so I let my control script see that the Lumagen notices the HDR format of the input signal and then switch the projector to the HDR mode manually.

One other reason not to use the HDR flag on the X7900 is there are it seems some "quirks" in the motor control setup of the lamp iris at least on X7900 when used with this feature, and if you use the HDR flag and have different lamp iris settings for HDR vs SDR, and then turn off in one mode and turn on in the other (eg off in SDR on in HDR, or vice versa) the iris can lose track of its position. Setting to a user mode without using the HDR flag prevents this as the projector always remembers what user mode you set to.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Exactly what I was talking about before. There are way too many scenarios that exist that would make the masking system move unnecessarily that would become frustrating. I'm all for the auto aspect changes of the image, but I'd rather dictate when the masks move with a button, just to avoid this.


Where do you stop though? If you have different iris positions for HDR vs SDR content I'd probably be far more worried about the motors / gears in the PJ giving out - they're certainly of much worse quality than the screen mask motors. You could also make that a manual change.

Re: some of the scenarios (like seeking etc) - I see them more as challenges to work out than reasons to make this a manual choice. I and others have proposed some ways of minimizing most of those as issues above - it seems pretty easy to have something that is going to be really quite robust with what there is now in the Pro.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kris Deering said:


> Maybe the wording is off here, but the Lumagen should NOT be outputting actual HDR to your JVC if the input is HDR. It should be outputting SDR2020. You DO NOT want the JVC doing the tone mapping, you want the Lumagen to do this.
> 
> You'd also want a different user mode on the projector because the picture setup is different for SDR than it is for HDR.



His unit is just sending the HDR flag to make the projector switch to alternate preset for HDR. I set it up.


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> *Where do you stop though? If you have different iris positions for HDR vs SDR content I'd probably be far more worried about the motors / gears in the PJ giving out - they're certainly of much worse quality than the screen mask motors. You could also make that a manual change.*
> 
> Re: some of the scenarios (like seeking etc) - I see them more as challenges to work out than reasons to make this a manual choice. I and others have proposed some ways of minimizing most of those as issues above - it seems pretty easy to have something that is going to be really quite robust with what there is now in the Pro.


The lens shift and zoom gears on the RS3000 are metal. The gears on the RS1000/2000 are plastic. But I do agree, mechanical parts do wear out, with enough usage.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly what I was talking about before. There are way too many scenarios that exist that would make the masking system move unnecessarily that would become frustrating. I'm all for the auto aspect changes of the image, but I'd rather dictate when the masks move with a button, just to avoid this.
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you stop though? If you have different iris positions for HDR vs SDR content I'd probably be far more worried about the motors / gears in the PJ giving out - they're certainly of much worse quality than the screen mask motors. You could also make that a manual change.
> 
> Re: some of the scenarios (like seeking etc) - I see them more as challenges to work out than reasons to make this a manual choice. I and others have proposed some ways of minimizing most of those as issues above - it seems pretty easy to have something that is going to be really quite robust with what there is now in the Pro.
Click to expand...

My concern is not the motors of the screen. It is my annoyance at the mask wanting to change with any and all aspect shifts, even if they are for a pop up, menu, or trailer. Much harder to deal with than a single push of a button setting the mask where I want it and not having to think about it at all again.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Gordon Fraser said:


> His unit is just sending the HDR flag to make the projector switch to alternate preset for HDR. I set it up.


Thanks Gordon! Yes, I got slightly confused with the wording... I forgot my Lumagen send the flag signal to the JVC to switch it into HDR mode


----------



## DannyBoy73

bobof said:


> I wrote a script myself in Python, using some of the ARVE script as a basis for the JVC comms. I did copy and paste an early version of the script somewhere in the thread at some point. If you're into programming it is a couple of leisurely evening's work to get your head round, if you're not then it's probably not a great project to start to learn with...!
> 
> The X7900 does indeed support IP comms.
> 
> As @Kris Deering has mentioned the Lumagen for best use with a JVC should be outputting SDR 2.4 gamma for both SDR and HDR, likely with different light output set for each (via lamp mode / iris / filter setting / etc). You may have the HDR flag set by the Lumagen to switch automatically into one of the HDR modes. However; the HDR modes are limited in what you can do profiling-wise as they are not linear at the input code space edges, so I use two user modes for SDR and HDR both with profile off. To use a usermode for HDR you cannot use the HDR flag (at least not on X7900) - so I let my control script see that the Lumagen notices the HDR format of the input signal and then switch the projector to the HDR mode manually.
> 
> One other reason not to use the HDR flag on the X7900 is there are it seems some "quirks" in the motor control setup of the lamp iris at least on X7900 when used with this feature, and if you use the HDR flag and have different lamp iris settings for HDR vs SDR, and then turn off in one mode and turn on in the other (eg off in SDR on in HDR, or vice versa) the iris can lose track of its position. Setting to a user mode without using the HDR flag prevents this as the projector always remembers what user mode you set to.


Thanks. I do dabble with Python and other scripting languages at work so might have a play. Will do some googling!


----------



## bobof

DannyBoy73 said:


> Thanks. I do dabble with Python and other scripting languages at work so might have a play. Will do some googling!


I will try and dig it out at some point, but there is definitely at least one version from me in this thread. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

I'm hoping the new firmware is out this weekend when I will have plenty of time to test and play with it !


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> Maybe the wording is off here, but the Lumagen should NOT be outputting actual HDR to your JVC if the input is HDR. It should be outputting SDR2020. You DO NOT want the JVC doing the tone mapping, you want the Lumagen to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd also want a different user mode on the projector because the picture setup is different for SDR than it is for HDR.




Can’t the Lumagen still output HDR, if you just turn off all tonemapping on the JVC ?


----------



## Ash Sharma

Watched Rise Of Skywalker - Early Delivery by Disney on Kaleidescape - the movie would be unwatchable without the Lumagen Pro and DTM on my VW5000 (with DCR) - the movie is very dark and the Lumagen DTM revealed all the details and made the movie look fantastic.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Ash Sharma said:


> Watched Rise Of Skywalker - Early Delivery by Disney on Kaleidescape - the movie would be unwatchable without the Lumagen Pro and DTM on my VW5000 (with DCR) - the movie is very dark and the Lumagen DTM revealed all the details and made the movie look fantastic.


Funny isn't it. You had the VW5000 for so long without the Radiance Pro and thought it was all so watchable, and now thanks to the Radiance Pro's DTM and your eye/brain no longer can accept what you used to like!!!  Once my theater upgrade gets finally done, adding the Panamorph DCR lens, I'm sure you'll tell me the same thing (though I've had the Radiance Pro all along. HA!).

I understand that the KScape version of this movie has a good amount larger file size than the 4k disc version, due to space limitations on the disc for a 2.5 hour movie. Once the disc comes out, it would be great if you could compare its picture quality to the KScape version. I got in early at Amazon.comuk and got the entire Star Wars 9 disc set 4k for 150 Euro (now its 199 Euro) to be released April 21st. Now that Disney has acquired Fox, and the Star Wars KScape versions all are in Dolby Atmos, I am wondering if its worth it to pay more (actually a LOT more) and simply get the KScape movies,


----------



## thebland

I have Rise of Skywalker on KScape queued up for tonight as well. 

Cant wait!!! (Sorry Steve... you’ll get there...)


----------



## skylarlove1999

thebland said:


> I have Rise of Skywalker on KScape queued up for tonight as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Cant wait!!! (Sorry Steve... you’ll get there...)


Man you are in for a treat on the Kscape!!!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

thebland said:


> I have Rise of Skywalker on KScape queued up for tonight as well.
> 
> Cant wait!!! (Sorry Steve... you’ll get there...)


You got there - I'll get there! HA!


----------



## jrp

Craig Peer said:


> I'm hoping the new firmware is out this weekend when I will have plenty of time to test and play with it !


Close, but working on some bug fixes has added some time. I have a test release and will be testing after company leaves tonight (My wife has nixed me loading a test release before company comes due to some not having a vetted FPGA and causing issues).


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> Watched Rise Of Skywalker - Early Delivery by Disney on Kaleidescape - the movie would be unwatchable without the Lumagen Pro and DTM on my VW5000 (with DCR) - the movie is very dark and the Lumagen DTM revealed all the details and made the movie look fantastic.


Even Solo : A Star Wars Story on 4K looks good with the Lumagen's DTM !


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> I have Rise of Skywalker on KScape queued up for tonight as well. Cant wait!!! (Sorry Steve... you’ll get there...)


My Strato has been trying to download Rise of Skywalker since yesterday. It is loading at about 4.6M bps (my Strato is idle). Typically I get 150M to 200M bps Strato downloads and I just did a speed test and it showed 292M bps download speed. Never have close to this low download speed for the Strato.

I assume this is on the Kaleidescape end. Maybe they are downloading this to everyone at once. Frustrating.


----------



## Ash Sharma

thebland said:


> I have Rise of Skywalker on KScape queued up for tonight as well.
> 
> Cant wait!!! (Sorry Steve... you’ll get there...)


Seat of the pants LFE in my Theater and in yours.... just Bliss.... expected


----------



## JFR0317

jrp said:


> My Strato has been trying to download Rise of Skywalker since yesterday. It is loading at about 4.6M bps (my Strato is idle). Typically I get 150M to 200M bps Strato downloads and I just did a speed test and it showed 292M bps download speed. Never have close to this low download speed for the Strato.
> 
> I assume this is on the Kaleidescape end. Maybe they are downloading this to everyone at once. Frustrating.


It must be on K's end. I initiated a download an hour and 40 minutes ago, and it shows it is at 2% with 53 hours to go at 3.2 mbps. Good thing that is at my other house, and I won't be heading over there for a week.


----------



## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> Even Solo : A Star Wars Story on 4K looks good with the Lumagen's DTM !


Anyone tried the Solo 3D version thru a Lumagen? Can it do anything with a badly dark rec709 3D image to improve it? Solo was one of the few I couldn't get thru in 3D.


----------



## Mike Garrett

jrp said:


> Close, but working on some bug fixes has added some time. I have a test release and will be testing after company leaves tonight (My wife has nixed me loading a test release before company comes due to some not having a vetted FPGA and causing issues).


I bet she is speaking from experience.


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> Anyone tried the Solo 3D version thru a Lumagen? Can it do anything with a badly dark rec709 3D image to improve it? Solo was one of the few I couldn't get thru in 3D.


I haven't tried Solo in 3D but a couple suggestions to try to help:

Make sure your projector is in High Lamp or High Laser mode.

I will assume you have your 2D setup, and hopefully calibrated, correctly.

Use the Output Setup Menu to select 3D. Press OK to get the change menu. Then select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for input modes (resolutions). Then select a different CMS for SDR (no need to change the HDR CMS since no HDR 3D). For example you might select CMS7. Press OK to accept and then EXIT to activate the change.

Copy your CMS used for 2D (CMS 0 by default) to the CMS for 3D (CMS 7 in my example) using the Menu->Output->Copy menu.

Play 3D and then bring up the MENU->Other->Test Patterns->Adjustable, and then select Contrast pattern group using right-arrow. Then press the digit 4 one time to step to Contrast 2 pattern. Then press MENU, and then press OK, to show the Black Level control. Then with your 3D glasses on and active increase the Black level until four (of nine) vertical stripes in the horizontal center of the screen are visible (but the other five vertical stripes in the center all same "black" intensity). Once you have this adjusted press OK to accept. Then press CLR to clear out the pattern

You can then also try adjusting the Gamma Factor (output CMS menu) while watching the movies to a lower number to raise the darker pixel brightness up some in intensity.

If you change the Gamma_Factor, recheck the Black level as shown above.

Make sure to Save your changes.

With the 3D Glasses each eye typically has in the range of 25% to 35% the light level, versus 2D, using active 3D glasses. This is because each eye for 3D Glasses is open 50% of time, and is not completely transparent. So you need to bring up the black level and you may also need a lower effective Gamma.


----------



## audioguy

I have a Trinnov calibration client who has the Sony 995 with the Lumagen and Panamorph. When I first saw his video (maybe 10 months ago), I thought it looked fabulous, even compared to my JVC RS4500 The last time, I was there, most all of his HDR images "appeared" dull and lifeless. The problem: I had added DTM to my Lumagen and he had not. So even though his projector images were tdentical to the previous visits, compared to what I was now seeing in my system, his looked dull and lifeless. DTM is 'the bomb".


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## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> Even Solo : A Star Wars Story on 4K looks good with the Lumagen's DTM !


Thats next on my list - thanks for the heads up.
Now if K can turn on HDR on Rogue one as it comes and goes...


----------



## blake

audioguy said:


> I have a Trinnov calibration client who has the Sony 995 with the Lumagen and Panamorph. When I first saw his video (maybe 10 months ago), I thought it looked fabulous, even compared to my JVC RS4500 The last time, I was there, most all of his HDR images "appeared" dull and lifeless. The problem: I had added DTM to my Lumagen and he had not. So even though his projector images were tdentical to the previous visits, compared to what I was now seeing in my system, his looked dull and lifeless. DTM is 'the bomb".




I wonder how much better one can get with the upcoming local zone DTM on the Lumagen ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

blake said:


> Can’t the Lumagen still output HDR, if you just turn off all tonemapping on the JVC ?


It can but there isn't any point. A JVC projector doesn't have native output that looks anything like a high nits PQ curve device, yet that is what the HDR format provides for.
The Lumagen can map the HDR down into a more useful part of the HDR range, but that would still typically end up with the projector having to remap that to the native response. You've then got two mapping curves potentially fighting with each other.

The best way to set up a JVC projector with a Lumagen is to output SDR 2.4 gamma, preferably with a 3DLUT loaded mapping the projector's native response to either REC709, DCIP3 or REC2020 per your preference (or what is most appropriate for your use).

You can still if you want set the Lumagen to flag the output as if it were HDR PQ gamma for the purpose of automatically triggering a mode change in the projector; but in that case you still make the Lumagen output with a 2.4 gamma and have the gamma set up on the projector for 2.4, and not PQ HDR gamma.



blake said:


> I wonder how much better one can get with the upcoming local zone DTM on the Lumagen ?


I'm looking forward to this feature; but the way I understand it is more about preventing bad scene detection from happening when an explosion happens on one particular part of the screen which might otherwise cause the image APL to jump. That is an improvement in the overall presentation (as luma jumps are undesireable) but it shouldn't typically affect many scenes (as witnessed by me only having seen jumps in a small number of titles recently without zone based algorithm).


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## bearcat2002

Beauty and the Beast BR 709 vs UHD SDR2020 with Lumagen. Now that’s awesome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Anyone tried the Solo 3D version thru a Lumagen? Can it do anything with a badly dark rec709 3D image to improve it? Solo was one of the few I couldn't get thru in 3D.


You can have a proper calibration done with the Lumagen for 3D and set it up to recall that specific calibration automatically. 3D is rarely calibrated for properly (readings taking the glasses into account properly). Solo is a dark movie on purpose though, the cinematographer is known for his darker signature and natural light photography (he did Arrival as well, which is complained about too).


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## rola

bearcat2002 said:


> Beauty and the Beast BR 709 vs UHD SDR2020 with Lumagen. Now that’s awesome.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In my eyes the lower pictury totally lacks detail in the dark parts. You cant see that it is a basket on the left, the columns dissappear, the arch is invisible and so on.
Is that the br 709 or the sdr2020 picture?

If thats the picture with the lumagen I dont get it. Perhaps a bad picture or whats wrong?


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## bearcat2002

Brightness doesn’t equate to a better picture


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rola

No a good picture is more than brightness, but can you please tell me what you want to illustrate with the pictures.
That brightness is different is easy to see, but what else?


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## bearcat2002

The colors are just spot on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

Can anyone here confirm if the 4242 supports 18GHz on at least one output? I was enquiring with the Aussie importer on the availability of it, and in the response I got from him he sent this rather confusing quote they said was from the president of Lumagen.

"The 4242+ serves as the new entry model for those who want to support HDR10 and HLG from sources like the AppleTV 4K that require an 18 GHz input for HDR support. As many of you know with the Pro’s excellent output dither I do not see any technical reason to have an 18 GHz output. For 4k24 HDR there is zero difference since both 9G and 18G cards support 4:2:2 12-bit. The only real question is can someone perceive an improvement using an 18G output for a 4k60 HDR10 source. In my A-B comparison I do not see any difference between the 9G and 18G outputs even on tough HDR scenes running at 4k60. On the other hand there *is* a technical reason to choose the 9 GHz output card: The slower edge rate of the 9 GHz output means less cabling, and/or marginal projector input design, issues. For the above reasons I believe the Radiance Pro 4242+ is an excellent choice for price sensitive customers, and gives full performance for HDR titles at a lower price.

If someone does not want to listen to my 9G output argument, then the 4242-18G is an excellent choice. The 4242-18G is currently our biggest seller, with 18 GHz on all four inputs, and 18 GHz on the output to the projector/TV, plus an audio only output."

It has confused the heck out of me and makes me think, unlike what the website says, there are two separate 4242 models, and one doesn't support 18GHz at all.

Sigh.


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> Can anyone here confirm if the 4242 supports 18GHz on at least one output? I was enquiring with the Aussie importer on the availability of it, and in the response I got from him he sent this rather confusing quote they said was from the president of Lumagen.
> 
> 
> 
> "The 4242+ serves as the new entry model for those who want to support HDR10 and HLG from sources like the AppleTV 4K that require an 18 GHz input for HDR support. As many of you know with the Pro’s excellent output dither I do not see any technical reason to have an 18 GHz output. For 4k24 HDR there is zero difference since both 9G and 18G cards support 4:2:2 12-bit. The only real question is can someone perceive an improvement using an 18G output for a 4k60 HDR10 source. In my A-B comparison I do not see any difference between the 9G and 18G outputs even on tough HDR scenes running at 4k60. On the other hand there *is* a technical reason to choose the 9 GHz output card: The slower edge rate of the 9 GHz output means less cabling, and/or marginal projector input design, issues. For the above reasons I believe the Radiance Pro 4242+ is an excellent choice for price sensitive customers, and gives full performance for HDR titles at a lower price.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone does not want to listen to my 9G output argument, then the 4242-18G is an excellent choice. The 4242-18G is currently our biggest seller, with 18 GHz on all four inputs, and 18 GHz on the output to the projector/TV, plus an audio only output."
> 
> 
> 
> It has confused the heck out of me and makes me think, unlike what the website says, there are two separate 4242 models, and one doesn't support 18GHz at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh.




The lumagen website is pretty clear. There's one 4242 "model", you just decide, as a buyer, whether you want 9g or 18g cards inside. I find the curtpalme website to be helpful as well in differentiating between the various combinations available (and the price diffs). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> The lumagen website is pretty clear. There's one 4242 "model", you just decide, as a buyer, whether you want 9g or 18g cards inside. I find the curtpalme website to be helpful as well in differentiating between the various combinations available (and the price diffs).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm still getting confused, regards the site. It does sound like there are two models then. The website more indicates that it has two outputs, and you can either run it at 9GHz on both, or 18GHz on one and audio only on other. It doesn't indicate that when you buy it you have to choose one or the other. Eg say if you had a video card on a pc that you could either run two screens are QHD, or one screen at 4k

So, I take it then, when you buy it, there is one 4242 with 2x9GHz, and one 4242 with 1x18Ghz + 1xAudio Only?


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## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> So, I take it then, when you buy it, there is one 4242 with 2x9GHz, and one 4242 with 1x18Ghz + 1xAudio Only?



Yes. 

I still think of it as one model (like a model of a car where you have a choice of 1 of 2 engines)

Look at curtpalme.com and it'll make sense. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Killroy

Or you can buy the 2x9Ghz and then upgrade the output by installing the 18Ghz card...if you can find one cheap(ish).


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## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> Yes.
> 
> I still think of it as one model (like a model of a car where you have a choice of 1 of 2 engines)
> 
> Look at curtpalme.com and it'll make sense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OK cool. It makes sense more what I was reading in the statement then, and their use of two model numbers (eg "4242-18G" and "4242+") that there are two variants. And looking at CurtPalme they are listing 4242 and 4242-18G.

I take it here the consensus it the 18Ghz? I would prefer full bitrate. I can't see why I'd personally want two video outputs anyhow.


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## fatherom

Looks like the 4242+ is a hybrid which has 18g input and 9g outputs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mike Garrett

bearcat2002 said:


> Brightness doesn’t equate to a better picture
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly. People make the assumption that the image that shows more detail in the shadow area is the better image. That would mean every E-shift DLP with raised black floor is shooting a better image, because all of them show more detail in the shadows, due to the raised black floor. Just like an over exposed picture shows more detail in the shadow area. Like you said, bighter is not better.


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## Mike Garrett

MOberhardt said:


> I'm still getting confused, regards the site. It does sound like there are two models then. The website more indicates that it has two outputs, and you can either run it at 9GHz on both, or 18GHz on one and audio only on other. It doesn't indicate that when you buy it you have to choose one or the other. Eg say if you had a video card on a pc that you could either run two screens are QHD, or one screen at 4k
> 
> So, I take it then, when you buy it, there is one 4242 with 2x9GHz, and one 4242 with 1x18Ghz + 1xAudio Only?


There is only one model 4242, but it is available multiple ways.

9GHz input and 9GHz output
18GHz input and 9GHz output
18GHz input and 18GHz output


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## MOberhardt

Mike Garrett said:


> There is only one model 4242, but it is available multiple ways.
> 
> 9GHz input and 9GHz output
> 18GHz input and 9GHz output
> 18GHz input and 18GHz output


Thanks. But "available multiple ways" do you mean when you purchase, you have the option of ONE of these three, or when you have your "one model" you set it up in one of three ways in the menu?


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## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> Thanks. But "available multiple ways" do you mean when you purchase, you have the option of ONE of these three, or when you have your "one model" you set it up in one of three ways in the menu?


You have the option. Base price - 9GHz inputs and 9GHz output. Optional upgrade ( slightly more $ ) - 18GHz input and 18GHz output. Personally I would get 18GHz all the way around - that's what I have.


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## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> You have the option. Base price - 9GHz inputs and 9GHz output. Optional upgrade ( slightly more $ ) - 18GHz input and 18GHz output. Personally I would get 18GHz all the way around - that's what I have.


So only two options then, not three? So you get the "18 GHz option" it means both outputs are 18gHz? Why on earth can't they have this information on the website, and why do they make it so unclear. They make it look like you can always run one output in 18GHz. And it doesn't even really make it clear as is being indicated here the inputs are in some cases 9gHz.


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## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> So only two options then, not three? So you get the "18 GHz option" it means both outputs are 18gHz? Why on earth can't they have this information on the website, and why do they make it so unclear. They make it look like you can always run one output in 18GHz. And it doesn't even really make it clear as is being indicated here the inputs are in some cases 9gHz.




It’s right on Lumagen’s website. Call them if you are confused. Or a dealer. And to be clear, the base price is for all inputs/ outputs @ 9GHz HDMI cards. That’s why it says “optional” 18GHz inputs / output’s. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> It’s right on Lumagen’s website. Call them if you are confused. Or a dealer. And to be clear, the base price is for all inputs/ outputs @ 9GHz HDMI cards. That’s why it says “optional” 18GHz inputs / output’s.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You must be seeing something different to me as it is not clear at all.

You might see from my first post on the matter, I got confusing half baked information from the Aussie dealer, which why I was trying to clarify here. I saw (from them) one price, one model number, and some confusing stuff talking about 9 and 18GHz. If the website listed this data properly. If the dealer has simply said, OK, the 4242 9gHz In Out was $X, and the 4242 18GHzIn, 18GHz out is $Y I'd have understood. But no, they didn't, so I checked the lumagen website, and nothing was clear about what things were purchase time options. So I came here to ask. As it is very unclear.

I can see a bit better on the curt palme website as they do show THREE separate model numbers in the 4242 series. But two of these are 9GHz in/ 9GHz out (4242 and 4242-C), the 4242-C being a compact case. And then to muddy it more, someone else mentions that the three models are 9G in, 9G Out, 18g in/9g out, 18g in / 18g out.


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> You must be seeing something different to me as it is not clear at all.
> 
> You might see from my first post on the matter, I got confusing half baked information from the Aussie dealer, which why I was trying to clarify here. I saw (from them) one price, one model number, and some confusing stuff talking about 9 and 18GHz. If the website listed this data properly. If the dealer has simply said, OK, the 4242 9gHz In Out was $X, and the 4242 18GHzIn, 18GHz out is $Y I'd have understood. But no, they didn't, so I checked the lumagen website, and nothing was clear about what things were purchase time options. So I came here to ask. As it is very unclear.
> 
> I can see a bit better on the curt palme website as they do show THREE separate model numbers in the 4242 series. But two of these are 9GHz in/ 9GHz out (4242 and 4242-C), the 4242-C being a compact case. And then to muddy it more, someone else mentions that the three models are 9G in, 9G Out, 18g in/9g out, 18g in / 18g out.


It does say the 18G input and output cards are optional on the Lumagen site.
I understand they (Lumagen) can build a 4242 with whichever cards you want in whichever slots. Which makes many possible configurations for a 4242, not just the 3 you list (which are, however, likely the most popular).

Of course that doesn't stop dealers advertising for sale fixed configs, and perhaps not listing all options, or I guess even offering them for sale. The config Jim lists as perhaps preferable for many (18G in / 9G out) isn't listed at CurtPalme, for example, though they implicitly refer to it in their text advert in quoting Jim on it. I think the expectation is that anyone buying these products will have a conversation with their local dealer to discuss their requirements and get a unit that is configured appropriately for their system.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

MOberhardt said:


> You must be seeing something different to me as it is not clear at all.
> 
> You might see from my first post on the matter, I got confusing half baked information from the Aussie dealer, which why I was trying to clarify here. I saw (from them) one price, one model number, and some confusing stuff talking about 9 and 18GHz. If the website listed this data properly. If the dealer has simply said, OK, the 4242 9gHz In Out was $X, and the 4242 18GHzIn, 18GHz out is $Y I'd have understood. But no, they didn't, so I checked the lumagen website, and nothing was clear about what things were purchase time options. So I came here to ask. As it is very unclear.
> 
> I can see a bit better on the curt palme website as they do show THREE separate model numbers in the 4242 series. But two of these are 9GHz in/ 9GHz out (4242 and 4242-C), the 4242-C being a compact case. And then to muddy it more, someone else mentions that the three models are 9G in, 9G Out, 18g in/9g out, 18g in / 18g out.





To make this clear for anyone else.


Lumagen Radiance Pro units have modular input and outputs. Each HDMI i/o board has two HDMI sockets on it. The HDMI modules are available as either 9GHz or 18GHz bandwidth. The 4242 model has two input modules slots (four total inputs) and one output slot. The 18GHz OUTPUT module has one single video or audio and video output and the second output is an audio only output. You can swap modules up or down after original purchase by buying and selling your current i/o module.


From the above you can see that a 4242 is generally configured with i/o modules in one of four ways


1: in 9GHz , 9 GHz and out 9GHz


2: in 18GHz, 9GHz, and out 9GHz


3: in 18GHz, 18GHz, and out 9GHz


4:: All 18GHz in and out




because there are so many permutations Lumagen decided to list only some and give them differentiators in the name. ie 4242+ and 4242-18GHz. It appears though that his has just confused folk on this occassion.


----------



## Mike Garrett

MOberhardt said:


> So only two options then, not three? So you get the "18 GHz option" it means both outputs are 18gHz? Why on earth can't they have this information on the website, and why do they make it so unclear. They make it look like you can always run one output in 18GHz. And it doesn't even really make it clear as is being indicated here the inputs are in some cases 9gHz.


It is mix and match. You can select 9GHz or 18GHz for input or output. So you actually have four options, but I do not know why anyone would select 9GHz input and 18GHz output. Only three make sense to consider: 9 in and 9 out, 18 in and 9 out and 18 in and 18 out. Jim used to recommend 18 in and 9 out, because that is a much easier signal to send down the pipeline and the Lumagen does a good job dithering down. Myself, I chose 18 in and 18 out.


----------



## SJHT

The only other to add is that when you select 18 Ghz output, that turns that output slot into a single video output and a single audio output. With 9 GHz you get 2 video outputs... SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> You must be seeing something different to me as it is not clear at all.
> 
> You might see from my first post on the matter, I got confusing half baked information from the Aussie dealer, which why I was trying to clarify here. I saw (from them) one price, one model number, and some confusing stuff talking about 9 and 18GHz. If the website listed this data properly. If the dealer has simply said, OK, the 4242 9gHz In Out was $X, and the 4242 18GHzIn, 18GHz out is $Y I'd have understood. But no, they didn't, so I checked the lumagen website, and nothing was clear about what things were purchase time options. So I came here to ask. As it is very unclear.
> 
> I can see a bit better on the curt palme website as they do show THREE separate model numbers in the 4242 series. But two of these are 9GHz in/ 9GHz out (4242 and 4242-C), the 4242-C being a compact case. And then to muddy it more, someone else mentions that the three models are 9G in, 9G Out, 18g in/9g out, 18g in / 18g out.


http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_details

Optional 18Ghz input card(s)

Optional 18Ghz output card(s)
18Ghz output card has 1 video+audio and 1 audio out
versus 2 video+audio outputs of 9Ghz output card

Make it simple - get 18Ghz in and out all around like I did. Easy peazy.


----------



## MOberhardt

OK thanks everyone. I guess the Aussie sellers have very little business so don't have much practice at selling them...

Tell you what though, the retail price here compared to the US is wince inducing... Got to hope my wife doesn't notice...


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> OK thanks everyone. I guess the Aussie sellers have very little business so don't have much practice at selling them...
> 
> Tell you what though, the retail price here compared to the US is wince inducing... Got to hope my wife doesn't notice...



The guys from CogWorks who distribute here are pretty knowledgeable. I dealt with them when I discovered Kurt Palme had not bothered to tell me they hadn't specced 18GHz output despite knowing I had a 4500 as a projector. They sourced me the 18GHz output board pretty quickly. Also, at the time I was burning I didn't go through them as I ended up paying significantly more buying via the US.


----------



## MOberhardt

OzHDHT said:


> The guys from CogWorks who distribute here are pretty knowledgeable. I dealt with them when I discovered Kurt Palme had not bothered to tell me they hadn't specced 18GHz output despite knowing I had a 4500 as a projector. They sourced me the 18GHz output board pretty quickly. Also, at the time I was burning I didn't go through them as I ended up paying significantly more buying via the US.


Maybe they were off their game. The info they supplied regards 18 v 9 was incomplete, confusing, and in no way indicated there was a price difference. Andi asked.. It wasn't until I found out here and said I want 18 in and out, that i was able to get from them that was not the same price as they quoted me. They didn't say something logical, like this is the price for the base 9 in 9 out 4242. If you want a full 18in 18 out, it is this price. Pretty damn easy to state that.


----------



## kal

OzHDHT said:


> The guys from CogWorks who distribute here are pretty knowledgeable. I dealt with them when I discovered Kurt Palme had not bothered to tell me they hadn't specced 18GHz output despite knowing I had a 4500 as a projector.


Kal here from CurtPalme. You would have been dealing with me. What projector someone uses doesn't dictate if the outputs should be 9G or 18G. To quote Jim from Lumagen:



> *What's the difference between 9Ghz and 18Ghz?*
> 
> Choose 18Ghz inputs if you want to support HDR10 and HLG from sources like the AppleTV 4K. These require an 18GHz input for HDR support. With the Pro's excellent output dither many do not see any technical reason to have an 18GHz output. For 4k24 HDR there is no difference since both 9G and 18G support 4:2:2 12-bit. The only real question is can someone perceive an improvement using an 18G output for a 4k60 HDR10 source. In A/B comparisons we [Lumagen] do not see any difference between the 9G and 18G outputs even on tough HDR scenes running at 4k60. So if you're looking for the lowest cost of entry with HDR support, choose the lowest cost Radiance Pro and upgrade one input card to 18G. For those who want full 18 Ghz all around then the "-18G" models are the best option.


So it really depends what you're after. There's no right or wrong answer. Jim's also mentioned in the past that 9G outputs can actually be favourable as they're "easier" to support and more likely to work. To quote Jim again on this:



> Transmission Line theory, which governs HDMI video signals, says that it is edge rate more than data rate that determines the required ‘quality’ of the transmission line medium. For HDMI it is the HDMI cable. Note: The input design of the projector/TV plays a big role as well but we can only swap out the cable if the TV/projector has already been purchased.
> 
> To run at 18 GHz the output chip signals need to have a faster edge rate than the 9 GHz output chip requires. Some projectors have marginal input design and have trouble with the faster 18 GHz output edge rates. We have cases of BenQ and Optima projectors working using the Radiance Pro 9 GHz output but *not* working using the 18 GHz output running at 9 GHz (using the same 18 GHz certified cable). The only difference in these signals is the output edge profile since both were running at 9 GHz. This result demonstrates my point about edge rate.


If someone's not sure what they should get or are confused, always best to ask. I get almost daily emails about it as it's definitely confusing.

Cheers!

Kal


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> Maybe they were off their game. The info they supplied regards 18 v 9 was incomplete, confusing, and in no way indicated there was a price difference. Andi asked.. It wasn't until I found out here and said I want 18 in and out, that i was able to get from them that was not the same price as they quoted me. They didn't say something logical, like this is the price for the base 9 in 9 out 4242. If you want a full 18in 18 out, it is this price. Pretty damn easy to state that.



Interesting I was sure if you were speaking directly with CogWorks or a retailer, given CogWorks don't always deal with the public as a distributor. The guy I dealt with was Paul. But I of course didn't buy the whole unit through them so maybe wasn't asking them as many questions perhaps.




kal said:


> Kal here from CurtPalme. You would have been dealing with me. What projector someone uses doesn't dictate if the outputs should be 9G or 18G. To quote Jim from Lumagen:
> 
> 
> So it really depends what you're after. There's no right or wrong answer. Jim's also mentioned in the past that 9G outputs can actually be favourable as they're "easier" to support and more likely to work. To quote Jim again on this:
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Kal



Kal, yeah that's a fair enough viewpoint I suppose, but it wasn't even stated in the specs of what I was getting as I would have immediately flagged it. I would have thought logically why hamper a 18GHz capable projector with limited bandwidth, exactly like the major issue I was having with my using my MX160 AVP (and feeding all kinds of 4K sources, PS4 Pro, etc) for switching video prior. Soon as I got the 18GHz output board sorted from the guys at CogWorks, everything was full steam ahead. Also, my total cost ended being over $1000 more than the same specced Radiance Pro would have cost locally in the end unfort.


----------



## MOberhardt

OzHDHT said:


> Interesting I was sure if you were speaking directly with CogWorks or a retailer, given CogWorks don't always deal with the public as a distributor. The guy I dealt with was Paul. I buy the whole unit through them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kal, yeah that's a fair enough viewpoint I suppose, but it wasn't even stated in the specs of what I was getting as I would have immediately flagged it. I would have thought logically why hamper a 18GHz capable projector with limited bandwidth, exactly like the major issue I was having with my using my MX160 AVP for switching video prior. Soon as I got the 18GHz output board sorted from the guys at CogWorks, everything was full steam ahead. Also, my total cost ended being over $1000 more than the same specced Radiance Pro would have cost locally in the end unfort.


I agree there - and I guess it highlights you actually had the same underlying issue as me - except that you were unlucky enough to have actually purchased the unit to then find out this whole 9GHz / 18 GHz issue and had to fork out more money. So the information they supplied you most definitely was insufficient to make a decision. I saw the response they gave me, questioned them, got no answer, looked again at lumagen website, was unclear, so then asked here. And why would you even bother producing units with 9GHz boards?

Even that comment from the Curt Palm staff member honestly itself raises a point of confusion. that 9GHz is easier to support. What does that mean? From their software/firmware development point of view? From a user perspective? Is the 18gHz buggy or higher failure rates? Do they have more support issues with 18GHz units?

The more I step into and experience and learn about the whole 4k HDR era, I just tend to get more and more annoyed with what an utter mess it is. From barely any display device manufacturers natively supporting a decent form of DTM or even bloody ATM, players not supporting DTM or ATM, those mothers at Dolby spitting on high end projector owners not even allowing LLDV. It is an utter mess. The 1080p era was so nice in comparison to this mess. The very fact I got to look at over A$10k for something that should just be available natively like DTM is just ludicrous.


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> I agree there - and I guess it highlights you actually had the same underlying issue as me - except that you were unlucky enough to have actually purchased the unit to then find out this whole 9GHz / 18 GHz issue and had to fork out more money. So the information they supplied you most definitely was insufficient to make a decision. I saw the response they gave me, questioned them, got no answer, looked again at lumagen website, was unclear, so then asked here. And why would you even bother producing units with 9GHz boards?
> 
> Even that comment from the Curt Palm staff member honestly itself raises a point of confusion. that 9GHz is easier to support. What does that mean? From their software/firmware development point of view? From a user perspective? Is the 18gHz buggy or higher failure rates? Do they have more support issues with 18GHz units?
> 
> The more I step into and experience and learn about the whole 4k HDR era, I just tend to get more and more annoyed with what an utter mess it is. From barely any display device manufacturers natively supporting a decent form of DTM or even bloody ATM, players not supporting DTM or ATM, those mothers at Dolby spitting on high end projector owners not even allowing LLDV. It is an utter mess. The 1080p era was so nice in comparison to this mess. The very fact I got to look at over A$10k for something that should just be available natively like DTM is just ludicrous.



Yes, but in my case (sorry I mistyped annoyingly) that's what happened when buying through the US. There were only ever at one stage 9GHz boards prior to the advent of the 18GHz. The 9GHz still represent a cost effective step into 4K capability as per what Jim was quoted as saying a couple of posts up.


That's also true. My take is initially there were some teething issues with 18GHz, maybe still a few bugs. But I know in my setup I have no issues whatsoever and am a happy 18GHz owner. 



Tend to agree there re all 4K HDR associated dramas, it's a real s-fight out there between devices, displays, and poor old projectors. Thank god though for Lumagen DTM. I was watching season 2 of Altered Carbon on Netflix last night and in the dark cave scenes in the episode I was watching the Lumagen handled it with aplomb.


----------



## Killroy

MOberhardt said:


> The 1080p era was so nice in comparison to this mess. The very fact I got to look at over A$10k for something that should just be available natively like DTM is just ludicrous.


I have no idea when you came into the 1080p projector timeline but I can tell you from being the third or fourth US owner of a Sony Ruby that the first couple/few native 1080p projectors were no cakewalk. They were buggy as hell, some did not properly support 23.976 or even 24hz, they had horrible handshake issues with HDMI/DVI, I can go and on. Every new tech comes with perils and 4k is not any different.


----------



## MOberhardt

OzHDHT said:


> Tend to agree there re all 4K HDR associated dramas, it's a real s-fight out there between devices, displays, and poor old projectors. Thank god though for Lumagen DTM. I was watching season 2 of Altered Carbon on Netflix last night and in the dark cave scenes in the episode I was watching the Lumagen handled it with aplomb.


I know, thank goodness that there is one device now to handle source input HDR DTM. But the insanity is that just a little more than a year ago there were zero devices! None! I mean it took over three years into the 4k HDR era for anything to be available! It just boggles my mind.

I still can't understand dolby either. I mean I feel the majority of people with a commercial love for 4k all they care about is bloody NITS and more dots. I don't want more nits on my projector, with the exception with my current one for 3d on low/quiet... And I don't want a TV that gives me retinal burns... Because if I had to say my fav thing about the 4K HDR hardware era is the amount of black level detail I can see that in prior generation hardware was just obscured - even on 2k content. Even some 3D titles that got slammed being too dark actually look pretty good now.


----------



## kal

OzHDHT said:


> Kal, yeah that's a fair enough viewpoint I suppose, but it wasn't even stated in the specs of what I was getting as I would have immediately flagged it.


It's not a viewpoint. Not everyone needs or wants 18G outputs. We have information about this on our order page. 



> It's information that's I would have thought logically why hamper a 18GHz capable projector with limited bandwidth


It's not necessarily hampering. Read my post above with quotes from the manufacturer explaining why they (personally) don't see the point of 18G outputs for many people. 



MOberhardt said:


> Even that comment from the Curt Palm staff member honestly itself raises a point of confusion. that 9GHz is easier to support. What does that mean? From their software/firmware development point of view? From a user perspective? Is the 18gHz buggy or higher failure rates? Do they have more support issues with 18GHz units?


From an engineering point of view as many (non-lumagen) devices implement 18G incorrectly. Read my comments above from Jim again, though I'll admit they're a bit technical.

Please understand that I'm not a spokeperson for Lumagen. I'm a home theater enthiast who also happens to come from a background in electrical engineering so I understand the complexities around this and what Jim and his team are facing. There's a lot of 'junk' out there with poorly implemented 18G interfaces.



> The more I step into and experience and learn about the whole 4k HDR era, I just tend to get more and more annoyed with what an utter mess it is.


Agreed completely. I would say the whole 'mess' started with the initial verison of HDMI. It's frankly been a nightmare for what, 15 years now? 
They got it completely wrong right from the start with the stupid non-locking connector. Sorry, I'm ranting. 

Kal


----------



## MOberhardt

kal said:


> It's not a viewpoint. Not everyone needs or wants 18G outputs. We have information about this on our order page.
> 
> 
> It's not necessarily hampering. Read my post above with quotes from the manufacturer explaining why they (personally) don't see the point of 18G outputs for many people.
> 
> 
> From an engineering point of view as many (non-lumagen) devices implement 18G incorrectly. Read my comments above from Jim again, though I'll admit they're a bit technical.
> 
> Please understand that I'm not a spokeperson for Lumagen. I'm a home theater enthiast who also happens to come from a background in electrical engineering so I understand the complexities around this and what Jim and his team are facing. There's a lot of 'junk' out there with poorly implemented 18G interfaces.
> 
> 
> Agreed completely. I would say the whole 'mess' started with the initial verison of HDMI. It's frankly been a nightmare for what, 15 years now?
> They got it completely wrong right from the start with the stupid non-locking connector. Sorry, I'm ranting.
> 
> Kal


Hah yes, locking connectors would have been nice. At least they weren't anywhere near as rubbish as how many implementations of various USB connectors... I'm an old dog software developer with an electronics engineering degree (although have never practiced)/. When you mentioned that locking connector, I was kind of thinking of the centronics connector... I have no fond memories of any of the badly designed DB series though 

I do admit HDCP has made the HDMI era more than a bit annoying, especially on the PC side.


----------



## OzHDHT

kal said:


> It's not a viewpoint. Not everyone needs or wants 18G outputs. We have information about this on our order page.
> 
> 
> It's not necessarily hampering. Read my post above with quotes from the manufacturer explaining why they (personally) don't see the point of 18G outputs for many people.
> 
> 
> Kal



Kal, I had quite a lot of dialogue directly via email during the entire process which was over quite a few weeks. It would have been handy to have it pointed out a bit more succinctly rather than rely on the order page info.


IMHO, even if as a person with full 18GHz capable projector wants to 'dumb down' the capabilities of what they can input in 4K bandwidth terms, I honestly can't see the point of not having at least some future proofing in their Lumagen. One of the first things I noticed that really got to me soon as I set up my Radiance initially was display issues with 4K 60Hz via HTPC.


----------



## kal

OzHDHT said:


> Kal, I had quite a lot of dialogue directly via email during the entire process which was over quite a few weeks. It would have been handy to have it pointed out a bit more succinctly rather than rely on the order page info.


Can you email me at [email protected] with your order details? I'm running a bit blind here. I can't confirm 100% who you are from this forum.

Kal


----------



## OzHDHT

kal said:


> Can you email me at [email protected] with your order details? I'm running a bit blind here. I can't confirm 100% who you are from this forum.
> 
> Kal



Kal, thanks but given it's all good for me nowadays, I don't see much point in an offline conversation to revisit it all. I definitely kept you in the loop at the time with everything that happened, including how I'd be doing myself out $$ by importing the Lumagen from you guys and not pricing one through CogWorks locally till it was too late for me cancel (although still pre shipment). Not to mention they (CogWorks) weren't super impressed I'd gone around their local distribution to a US supplier (believe they spoke to Jim directly about it). My posts today are only historical reference though for another local member who may or may not of been thinking the 'grass may be greener' if he decided to purchase a unit from the US. Unlike many other instances were it's paid me well to deal direct with US over certain local distributors, it didn't work out for me in this particular case.


----------



## Roosvelt

SJHT said:


> The only other to add is that when you select 18 Ghz output, that turns that output slot into a single video output and a single audio output. With 9 GHz you get 2 video outputs... SJ



Hi SJHT, could you please precise, beacause the 4242 model has only 2 outputs?

So even if you go for a 9Ghz VS 18Ghz output, I don’t figure out how you coud have 2 video outputs and 2 audio outputs


----------



## MOberhardt

Geez, this is nuts. This is from an Aussie dealer trying to get me to believe 9Ghz is best, to undersell me...
" anything less than an excellent input board on your projector will crash when its hooked up to an 18G output card. (Snip)... models that I have tested the 18G output cards with seem to work just fine, however It is my opinion that they appear to work better on a 9G card".

Am I in crazy town? Crashing a projector? I've never heard even murmurs of this here or anywhere, Lumagen or ANY HDCP 2.2 source. This is the cloudy BS that I've struck at every damn turn since I've been investigating... Are they trying to get me to believe that if I played Gemini Man UHD with full Lumagen processing, my projector might start smoking like in a cheesy b grade movie? 

Feels like a collusion to make me think everyone involved is either incompetent, hostile to prospective customers, or just plain insane...


----------



## Roosvelt

MOberhardt said:


> Geez, this is nuts. This is from an Aussie dealer trying to get me to believe 9Ghz is best, to undersell me...
> " anything less than an excellent input board on your projector will crash when its hooked up to an 18G output card. (Snip)... models that I have tested the 18G output cards with seem to work just fine, however It is my opinion that they appear to work better on a 9G card".
> 
> Am I in crazy town? Crashing a projector? I've never heard even murmurs of this here or anywhere, Lumagen or ANY HDCP 2.2 source. This is the cloudy BS that I've struck at every damn turn since I've been investigating... Are they trying to get me to believe that if I played Gemini Man UHD with full Lumagen processing, my projector might start smoking like in a cheesy b grade movie?
> 
> Feels like a collusion to make me think everyone involved is either incompetent, hostile to prospective customers, or just plain insane...



Or just don’t care ...


----------



## steelman1991

MOberhardt said:


> Geez, this is nuts. This is from an Aussie dealer trying to get me to believe 9Ghz is best, to undersell me...
> " anything less than an excellent input board on your projector will crash when its hooked up to an 18G output card. (Snip)... models that I have tested the 18G output cards with seem to work just fine, however It is my opinion that they appear to work better on a 9G card".
> 
> Am I in crazy town? Crashing a projector? I've never heard even murmurs of this here or anywhere, Lumagen or ANY HDCP 2.2 source. This is the cloudy BS that I've struck at every damn turn since I've been investigating... Are they trying to get me to believe that if I played Gemini Man UHD with full Lumagen processing, my projector might start smoking like in a cheesy b grade movie?
> 
> Feels like a collusion to make me think everyone involved is either incompetent, hostile to prospective customers, or just plain insane...


Perhaps not - there has been comment somewhere on this thread (by @jrp owner of Lumagen) who suggests that in some set-ups it can be beneficial to have 9Ghz output cards, rather than the 18Ghz variant. Can't remember the rationale, but I'm sure someone will chip in with the answer. But certainly not as crazy as it sounds.

Clearly if you want to play HFR material, or titles at 60fps, then you require full 18Ghz throughout the chain (I can watch Gemini Man and Billy Lynn without issue to a JVC N7 PJ), but if not, then 9Ghz are quite adequate. Certainly there's not a blanket "will crash your PJ", but I presume that with all things HDMI it is equipment dependant.


----------



## kal

OzHDHT said:


> Kal, I had quite a lot of dialogue directly via email during the entire process which was over quite a few weeks. It would have been handy to have it pointed out a bit more succinctly rather than rely on the order page info.


Normally I wouldn't say anything but your memory of the events are unfortunately a bit different from reality. Memory's a funny thing. CurtPalme was certainly succinct enough, you simply ordered something different from what you actually wanted 4 months after our initial discussions and even used a different email address when placing the order (so we didn't know who you were). Sequence of events:

Nov 19, 2017: You emailed interested in ordering a 4440 from us. You mentioned the Australian dealer had closed shop.
Nov 19, 2017. I replied that a 4440 was available and indicated that _"18Ghz upgrades to the inputs and outputs are also available"._ 
Nov 20, 2017: You replied _"Definitely keen on the 18Gbps capability"._

... 4 months pass ...

Mar 21, 2018: You ordered a 4442 (not 4440) with 9G cards (not 18G). You ordered using a different email address from all of our previous correspondances. 

To expect any seller to remember conversations from 4 months prior done under a different email and link the two is a bit of a stretch I think. We get hundreds of emails every week. I understand you're upset that you ordered 9G cards instead of 18G and your government charged you import fees and that the US/AUD exchange rate wasn't great, but please don't blame the seller for any of those. There's an Australian dealer available today so we no longer ship to Australia. Best that Australians buy directly from them as you mentioned.

Cheers,

Kal


----------



## kal

steelman1991 said:


> Perhaps not - there has been comment somewhere on this thread (by @jrp owner of Lumagen) who suggests that in some set-ups it can be beneficial to have 9Ghz output cards, rather than the 18Ghz variant. Can't remember the rationale, but I'm sure someone will chip in with the answer. But certainly not as crazy as it sounds.


I posted them yesterday right here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-244.html#post59381358

Kal


----------



## steelman1991

kal said:


> I posted them yesterday right here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-244.html#post59381358
> 
> Kal


Sorry Kal - hadn't gone back on the thread before posting.


----------



## Mike Garrett

MOberhardt said:


> I agree there - and I guess it highlights you actually had the same underlying issue as me - except that you were unlucky enough to have actually purchased the unit to then find out this whole 9GHz / 18 GHz issue and had to fork out more money. So the information they supplied you most definitely was insufficient to make a decision. I saw the response they gave me, questioned them, got no answer, looked again at lumagen website, was unclear, so then asked here. And why would you even bother producing units with 9GHz boards?
> 
> Even that comment from the Curt Palm staff member honestly itself raises a point of confusion. that 9GHz is easier to support. What does that mean? From their software/firmware development point of view? From a user perspective? Is the 18gHz buggy or higher failure rates? Do they have more support issues with 18GHz units?
> 
> The more I step into and experience and learn about the whole 4k HDR era, I just tend to get more and more annoyed with what an utter mess it is. From barely any display device manufacturers natively supporting a decent form of DTM or even bloody ATM, players not supporting DTM or ATM, those mothers at Dolby spitting on high end projector owners not even allowing LLDV. It is an utter mess. The 1080p era was so nice in comparison to this mess. The very fact I got to look at over A$10k for something that should just be available natively like DTM is just ludicrous.





OzHDHT said:


> Yes, but in my case (sorry I mistyped annoyingly) that's what happened when buying through the US. There were only ever at one stage 9GHz boards prior to the advent of the 18GHz. The 9GHz still represent a cost effective step into 4K capability as per what Jim was quoted as saying a couple of posts up.
> 
> 
> That's also true. My take is initially there were some teething issues with 18GHz, maybe still a few bugs. But I know in my setup I have no issues whatsoever and am a happy 18GHz owner.
> 
> 
> 
> Tend to agree there re all 4K HDR associated dramas, it's a real s-fight out there between devices, displays, and poor old projectors. Thank god though for Lumagen DTM. I was watching season 2 of Altered Carbon on Netflix last night and in the dark cave scenes in the episode I was watching the Lumagen handled it with aplomb.


The recommendation of 9GHz output has to do with it being much easier for a long HDMI cable to handle the signal. Where as, if you have 18GHz, you need to be sure and have a cable that can handle full spec (18GHz). A lot of cable list 18GHz, but can't actually do it with AV equipment.


----------



## SJHT

Roosvelt said:


> Hi SJHT, could you please precise, beacause the 4242 model has only 2 outputs?
> 
> So even if you go for a 9Ghz VS 18Ghz output, I don’t figure out how you coud have 2 video outputs and 2 audio outputs


For 9 Ghz you have 2 video/audio HDMI combo normal outputs. For 18Ghz, you have one video/audio combo outputs and one HDMI audio only outputs. So, there are still 2, but one is only audio. SJ


----------



## Roosvelt

SJHT said:


> For 9 Ghz you have 2 video/audio HDMI combo normal outputs. For 18Ghz, you have one video/audio combo outputs and one HDMI audio only outputs. So, there are still 2, but one is only audio. SJ



Thanks for clarifying SJ 
And what you’re recommend for me ?

I thought pull the trigger for a compact 4242
2 IN 18 Ghz 
2 IN 9 Ghz
1 OUT 18 Ghz
1 OUT 9Ghz

I own 
VP Sony 760 
TV 75Z9D 
ATV 4K PS4 Pro XBOX ONE X Pionner LX 500 Shield

But now with this talk I don’t know if I’ve better way to go to 2 9Ghz outputs


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Roosvelt said:


> Thanks for clarifying SJ
> And what you’re recommend for me ?
> 
> I thought pull the trigger for a compact 4242
> 2 IN 18 Ghz
> 2 IN 9 Ghz
> 1 OUT 18 Ghz
> 1 OUT 9Ghz
> 
> I own
> VP Sony 760
> TV 75Z9D
> ATV 4K PS4 Pro XBOX ONE X Pionner LX 500 Shield
> 
> But now with this talk I don’t know if I’ve better way to go to 2 9Ghz outputs





Your VW760 works fine with both 9 and 18GHz output. The 18GHz output has only one video output. The second output is not a 9GHz output..it is driven from the 18GHz output chip but just carries audio only and blanked video with HDCP1.X for backward compatibility with legacy audio products. If you want to save money and just watch 24Hz content and no 4K HDR gaming then a 9GHz output card is ideal as there is no difference in picture quality v the 18GHz for that content, it costs less.....and it is easier on the cabling infrastructure and the HDMI interface of some displays or baluns etc.


Jim from Lumagen, JRP here, has tested the dithered 9GHz 4K60Hz HDR output against the 18GHz card on their reference RS4500/Z1 JVC projector and cannot see any difference. Due to the potential benefits in reliability of systems this is why Lumagen suggest that the 9GHz cards on OUTPUT are a good idea. Hope that helps clear it up a little.


----------



## SJHT

I don’t want to spend your $, but I think all inputs should be 18Ghz. Jim Peterson commented that they now are recommending 18Ghz outputs for most installations. I would not purchase anything for myself at this point that wasn’t 18Ghz. Since you are driving two displays, not sure what the best output options. Send a note to Lumagen with your specific setup and get their expert opinion. You may need to consider getting a 44XX version. SJ


----------



## Mike Garrett

Roosvelt said:


> Thanks for clarifying SJ
> And what you’re recommend for me ?
> 
> I thought pull the trigger for a compact 4242
> 2 IN 18 Ghz
> 2 IN 9 Ghz
> 1 OUT 18 Ghz
> 1 OUT 9Ghz
> 
> I own
> VP Sony 760
> TV 75Z9D
> ATV 4K PS4 Pro XBOX ONE X Pionner LX 500 Shield
> 
> But now with this talk I don’t know if I’ve better way to go to 2 9Ghz outputs


If sticking with the 4242, then 18GHz inputs and 9GHz outputs. That is the only way you can feed two video displays. If you want to go full 18GHz input and Full 18GHz output and still send video to two displays, you will have to step up to 4442 or higher.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mike Garrett said:


> If sticking with the 4242, then 18GHz inputs and 9GHz outputs. That is the only way you can feed two video displays. If you want to go full 18GHz input and Full 18GHz output and still send video to two displays, you will have to step up to 4442 or higher.



Not specific to Roosevelt but....if youw ant dual outputs and can't afford a 444x then you could
a> get a dual output splitter 

b> send singke output to your audio processor if it had dual outputs.


----------



## OzHDHT

kal said:


> Normally I wouldn't say anything but your memory of the events are unfortunately a bit different from reality. Memory's a funny thing. CurtPalme was certainly succinct enough, you simply ordered something different from what you actually wanted 4 months after our initial discussions and even used a different email address when placing the order (so we didn't know who you were). Sequence of events:
> 
> Nov 19, 2017: You emailed interested in ordering a 4440 from us. You mentioned the Australian dealer had closed shop.
> Nov 19, 2017. I replied that a 4440 was available and indicated that _"18Ghz upgrades to the inputs and outputs are also available"._
> Nov 20, 2017: You replied _"Definitely keen on the 18Gbps capability"._
> 
> ... 4 months pass ...
> 
> Mar 21, 2018: You ordered a 4442 (not 4440) with 9G cards (not 18G). You ordered using a different email address from all of our previous correspondances.
> 
> To expect any seller to remember conversations from 4 months prior done under a different email and link the two is a bit of a stretch I think. We get hundreds of emails every week. I understand you're upset that you ordered 9G cards instead of 18G and your government charged you import fees and that the US/AUD exchange rate wasn't great, but please don't blame the seller for any of those. There's an Australian dealer available today so we no longer ship to Australia. Best that Australians buy directly from them as you mentioned.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Kal





Kal, honestly, as I indicated none of my specific posts were directed to you for a response. It was historical info for MOberhardt on how my Lumagen purchase went when I decided to purchase via the US instead of here in Australia. My mistake was that I found out late in the piece that there was a new distributor here who was more than willing to look after me with a better deal than me self importing from the US (via you guys). I also went over my old emails and yes I often use a personal email for purchases through websites instead of my business email to make purchases as I don't want all of the related emails clogging up my work inbox. Also Kal, I'm far from amateur when it comes to importing here, I've been doing it for myself with everything from A/V equipment to pinball machines for 25 years now so I am more than conscious of duties and GST on everything I import. What I was regretful about was not finding the local distributor/importer Cogworks (they are not a dealer/retailer) in time, even though I most certainly shared the situation with you prior to shipment so you knew the predicament I was in. I didn't plead with you to cancel as I felt it was obvisouly my blunder . Similar I didn't expect you to volunteer to take it up with Lumagen since you order units direct and don't have stock sitting on shelves. Plus, yes as I alluded to a direct conversation by the local supplier took place with Jim and he asked US suppliers to not supply to Australia, etc..


----------



## kal

OzHDHT said:


> Kal, honestly, as I indicated none of my specific posts were directed to you for a response.


I only point this out as you mentioned "CurtPalme should have pointed out more succinctly that you should have ordered 18G cards" which makes it sound like we don't look after our customers. We did say you should order 18G. More succinct wasn't possible. I agree with everything else you said.

Cheers!

Kal


----------



## OzHDHT

kal said:


> I only point this out as you mentioned "CurtPalme should have pointed out more succinctly that you should have ordered 18G cards" which makes it sound like we don't look after our customers. We did say you should order 18G. More succinct wasn't possible. I agree with everything else you said.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Kal




Kal, that's not an actual direct quote you're giving, more a like your own take on what I've written here. In going over the chain of emails again, which I have on my office computer, I see the one reference to 18GHz, "18Ghz upgrades to the inputs and outputs are also available if you’re interested. ". Unfortunately, after that there was no confirmation of the specs of what I'd purchased in any of the following emails, just mainly discussions on Autocal. The next conversions was when I mentioned I received the unit and was really frustrated about the lack of 18G all around, input and output as my UB900 wouldn't even display its menu via the Lumagen. I even made a specific comment about only seeing the mention of 18GHz down at the bottom of the order page (very different from your current order page I notice where you simply can't miss it in the item descriptions) : "Just when I was getting over whole self import vs local purchase scenario, I now find this. I checked your order page Kal and there's only a reference to upgrades to 18G at the bottom of the page. I'm unhooking it now and putting it back in the box. ".



Other than just wanting to clarify that Kal, we now can go back to enjoying the great Radiance Pro (4442) in all it's 18GHz glory .


----------



## jrp

I would like to post the Lumagen official recommendations on I/O card speed recommendations for the Radiance Pro. I have posted this information before, but based on all the posts on this topic it seems there is confusion about what I recommend.

First, it is important to note that the base Radiance Pro models come with 9 GHz I/O. This is for historical reasons. When we introduced the Radiance Pro only the 9 GHz HDMI chips were available to us. I designed the Radiance Pro to have two-input and two-output daughter-cards to allow people to upgrade some/all I/O to 18 GHz chips. These two-HDMI-in, or two-HDMI-out, 9 GHz cards can be swapped for 18 GHz cards at time of sale, or in the field. 

To make it easier to order a Radiance Pro we have some "pre-configured" I/O options. As I noted before, we dropped the two input 4240 due to manufacturing cost increases. At that time, I added the Radiance Pro 4242+ as a preconfigured option. I intend the 4242+ to be the entry level model since it will support two HDR and two non-HDR sources. The Radiance Pro 4242-18G is also an available preconfigured option. It has all four inputs at 18 GHz, one 18 GHz output and one audio only output.

For Radiance Pro Input cards, here is what to consider:

-	For HDR sources use 18 GHz input cards. Some HDR sources (e.g. Kaleidescape Strato) will output 4k24 content to a 9 GHz input card, but many (e.g. AppleTV 4k) appear to require an 18 GHz input card to output HDR. So best option for HDR sources is to use an 18 GHz input on the Radiance Pro.

-	For non-HDR sources 9 GHz input cards work well. Consumer SDR sources are 8-bit 4:2:0. So even at 4k60 the Radiance Pro 9 GHz is a good match since it supports 8-bit 4:2:0 at 4k60. Note that non-HDR sources also work well with 18 GHz input cards.

-	Often a mix of 18 inputs and 9 GHz inputs is a good choice, but this depends on your source mix. So for the 4242 having all 18 GHz input cards eliminates any issue of not having enough of the inputs support HDR sources, up to the maximum of four. For the 4446, it can make sense to have six 18 GHz inputs (3 cards) and two 9 GHz inputs (1 card) since most have one or two non-HDR sources. I choose this input mix for the Radiance Pro 4446+ preconfigured option.

-	For fastest switching we recommend, if possible, that HDR sources be connected to different 18 GHz inputs cards. This is for faster switching. You can of course use both inputs on each 18 GHz input card. For fastest switching with a Radiance Pro 4242 with four 18 GHz inputs, connect from most to least used sources as input 1, 3, 4, 2, to have the best switching speed. For fastest switching for the Radiance Pro 4446-18G, connect sources from most to least used as inputs 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 6, 4, 2. This gives you faster switching for your two (4242) or four (4446) most used sources.

============ 

For the Radiance Pro output card, my main point is that, in my opinion, the 9 GHz output is not visibly different that the 18 GHz output even for 4k60 HDR, based on my testing. You can of course use the 18 GHz output, but for reasons I describe below you should at least consider the 9 GHz output card for the Radiance Pro 4242. For the Radiance Pro 444X I recommend one 18 GHz output card and one 9 GHz output card. This gives maximum flexibility and allows you to test with both a 9 GHz output and a 18 GHz output.

Here is what to consider when choosing the output card(s):

-	9 GHz output cards have a slower output edge rate and so work better with marginal projector inputs (and many are marginal). We have two brands of projectors we have seen that have issues at 9 GHz output rate using an 18 GHz output card, but work with a 9 GHz output rate using a 9 GHz output card. The only difference is the output characteristics of the 18 GHz card (e.g. output edge rate).

-	For 24 Hertz content (e.g. movies) output as 4k24 both the 9 GHz output card and the 18 GHz output card run at 9 GHz. So there is zero difference in the pixel data between the 9 GHz and 18 GHz output card for 4k24 output between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards.

-	In my A-B testing for HDR content output at 4k60 I do not see a difference between the Radiance Pro 9 GHz 4:2:0 8-bit dithered output, versus 18 GHz 4:2:2 12-bit output on our JVC RS4500 on a 14 foot diagonal (12.9 feet wide which is 4 meters) 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130. This is because of the excellent output dither on the Radiance Pro output. Stated simply, I do not see a technical reason concerning image quality to have an 18 GHz output card on the Radiance Pro. In my opinion, you would not ever see a difference even on the toughest HDR content at 4k60.

For the Radiance Pro 4242 I would recommend upgrading both input cards (all four inputs) to 18 GHz if you have two or more 18 GHz sources, but leave the output card at 9 GHz to minimize system issues while still providing the best performance. You can of course choose to go for the 18 GHz output card upgrade if you want to.


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> -	9 GHz output cards have a slower output edge rate and so work better with marginal projector inputs (and many are marginal). We have two brands of projectors we have seen that have issues at 9 GHz output rate using an 18 GHz output card, but work with a 9 GHz output rate using a 9 GHz output card. The only difference is the output characteristics of the 18 GHz card (e.g. output edge rate).


Thanks for the info.

Can you please clarify? 
- Was this only then with 60Hz 4k hdr material, or also 24Hz 4k HDR material (which you said is only on 9GHz output on an 18G card)? 
- Which brands / models have had issues? And to what form did these issues take? Slow handshaking? Projectors starting to smoke like the Fem-Bots when Austin Powers starts to dance...? 
- Are all of the standard JVC and Sony 4k Projectors that people here and the majority of people interested in Lumagen fine from all personal and reported customer experiences? 

Thanks


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> Can you please clarify?
> 1) Was this only then with 60Hz 4k hdr material, or also 24Hz 4k HDR material (which you said is only on 9GHz output on an 18G card)?
> 2) Which brands / models have had issues? And to what form did these issues take? Slow handshaking? Projectors starting to smoke like the Fem-Bots when Austin Powers starts to dance...?
> 3) Are all of the standard JVC and Sony 4k Projectors that people here and the majority of people interested in Lumagen fine from all personal and reported customer experiences?


1) The source type does not matter at either 24 or 60 (or 25 or 50). At 4k24, both 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards run at 9 GHz, 12-bit 4:2:2. So zero difference for 24 Hertz content.

For 4k60 output I compared HDR, which is 10-bit, and saw no difference between dithered 9 GHz 8-bit 4:2:0, and 18 GHz, 12-bit 4:2:2 out of the Radiance Pro. The difference at 4k60 for SDR content would be even less than the "no difference" I saw in my tests. This is because SDR is compressed 8-bit to start.

2) Not sure if you are trying to be funny about smoking projectors. In any case, the difference between 9 GHz and 18 GHz will not cause physical damage. The issues are not-locking on, lock-on time, and drop-outs within content once locked on.

I am not going to comment on brands with the most HDMI issues.

3) Early 18 GHz input projectors all seemed to have what I consider as marginal HDMI inputs. I think a good way to demo this is when I take a Pro output and plug it into a mainstream 18 GHz TV I generally see a picture in about 3 seconds. When I plug that same cable into a projector it can take 15 to even 30 seconds to see a picture.

The positive news for JVC and Sony is their current projector models have improved HDMI input designs. So, as I have posted before the 9 GHz edge rate versus the 18 GHz edge rate is a smaller issue than it was before, especially with my recommended Tributaries UHDV "Vega" fiber cable (and some other active fiber cables are also good). However, it can still be an issue you can improve on by using a 9 GHz output card on the Radiance Pro since other projectors can still have marginal HDMI input designs.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> I would like to post the Lumagen official recommendations on I/O card speed recommendations for the Radiance Pro. I have posted this information before, but based on all the posts on this topic it seems there is confusion about what I recommend.
> 
> First, it is important to note that the base Radiance Pro models come with 9 GHz I/O. This is for historical reasons. When we introduced the Radiance Pro only the 9 GHz HDMI chips were available to us. I designed the Radiance Pro to have two-input and two-output daughter-cards to allow people to upgrade some/all I/O to 18 GHz chips. These two-HDMI-in, or two-HDMI-out, 9 GHz cards can be swapped for 18 GHz cards at time of sale, or in the field.
> 
> To make it easier to order a Radiance Pro we have some "pre-configured" I/O options. As I noted before, we dropped the two input 4240 due to manufacturing cost increases. At that time, I added the Radiance Pro 4242+ as a preconfigured option. I intend the 4242+ to be the entry level model since it will support two HDR and two non-HDR sources. The Radiance Pro 4242-18G is also an available preconfigured option. It has all four inputs at 18 GHz, one 18 GHz output and one audio only output.
> 
> For Radiance Pro Input cards, here is what to consider:
> 
> -	For HDR sources use 18 GHz input cards. Some HDR sources (e.g. Kaleidescape Strato) will output 4k24 content to a 9 GHz input card, but many (e.g. AppleTV 4k) appear to require an 18 GHz input card to output HDR. So best option for HDR sources is to use an 18 GHz input on the Radiance Pro.
> 
> -	For non-HDR sources 9 GHz input cards work well. Consumer SDR sources are 8-bit 4:2:0. So even at 4k60 the Radiance Pro 9 GHz is a good match since it supports 8-bit 4:2:0 at 4k60. Note that non-HDR sources also work well with 18 GHz input cards.
> 
> -	Often a mix of 18 inputs and 9 GHz inputs is a good choice, but this depends on your source mix. So for the 4242 having all 18 GHz input cards eliminates any issue of not having enough of the inputs support HDR sources, up to the maximum of four. For the 4446, it can make sense to have six 18 GHz inputs (3 cards) and two 9 GHz inputs (1 card) since most have one or two non-HDR sources. I choose this input mix for the Radiance Pro 4446+ preconfigured option.
> 
> -	For fastest switching we recommend, if possible, that HDR sources be connected to different 18 GHz inputs cards. This is for faster switching. You can of course use both inputs on each 18 GHz input card. For fastest switching with a Radiance Pro 4242 with four 18 GHz inputs, connect from most to least used sources as input 1, 3, 4, 2, to have the best switching speed. For fastest switching for the Radiance Pro 4446-18G, connect sources from most to least used as inputs 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 6, 4, 2. This gives you faster switching for your two (4242) or four (4446) most used sources.
> 
> ============
> 
> For the Radiance Pro output card, my main point is that, in my opinion, the 9 GHz output is not visibly different that the 18 GHz output even for 4k60 HDR, based on my testing. You can of course use the 18 GHz output, but for reasons I describe below you should at least consider the 9 GHz output card for the Radiance Pro 4242. For the Radiance Pro 444X I recommend one 18 GHz output card and one 9 GHz output card. This gives maximum flexibility and allows you to test with both a 9 GHz output and a 18 GHz output.
> 
> Here is what to consider when choosing the output card(s):
> 
> -	9 GHz output cards have a slower output edge rate and so work better with marginal projector inputs (and many are marginal). We have two brands of projectors we have seen that have issues at 9 GHz output rate using an 18 GHz output card, but work with a 9 GHz output rate using a 9 GHz output card. The only difference is the output characteristics of the 18 GHz card (e.g. output edge rate).
> 
> -	For 24 Hertz content (e.g. movies) output as 4k24 both the 9 GHz output card and the 18 GHz output card run at 9 GHz. So there is zero difference in the pixel data between the 9 GHz and 18 GHz output card for 4k24 output between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards.
> 
> -	In my A-B testing for HDR content output at 4k60 I do not see a difference between the Radiance Pro 9 GHz 4:2:0 8-bit dithered output, versus 18 GHz 4:2:2 12-bit output on our JVC RS4500 on a 14 foot diagonal (12.9 feet wide which is 4 meters) 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130. This is because of the excellent output dither on the Radiance Pro output. Stated simply, I do not see a technical reason concerning image quality to have an 18 GHz output card on the Radiance Pro. In my opinion, you would not ever see a difference even on the toughest HDR content at 4k60.
> 
> For the Radiance Pro 4242 I would recommend upgrading both input cards (all four inputs) to 18 GHz if you have two or more 18 GHz sources, but leave the output card at 9 GHz to minimize system issues while still providing the best performance. You can of course choose to go for the 18 GHz output card upgrade if you want to.


Thanks much!
How can I tell which input/output cards my Lumagen has?


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> 1) The source type does not matter at either 24 or 60 (or 25 or 50). At 4k24, both 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards run at 9 GHz, 12-bit 4:2:2. So zero difference for 24 Hertz content.
> 
> For 4k60 output I compared HDR, which is 10-bit, and saw no difference between dithered 9 GHz 8-bit 4:2:0, and 18 GHz, 12-bit 4:2:2 out of the Radiance Pro. The difference at 4k60 for SDR content would be even less than the "no difference" I saw in my tests. This is because SDR is compressed 8-bit to start.
> 
> 2) Not sure if you are trying to be funny about smoking projectors. In any case, the difference between 9 GHz and 18 GHz will not cause physical damage. The issues are not-locking on, lock-on time, and drop-outs within content once locked on.
> 
> I am not going to comment on brands with the most HDMI issues.
> 
> 3) Early 18 GHz input projectors all seemed to have what I consider as marginal HDMI inputs. I think a good way to demo this is when I take a Pro output and plug it into a mainstream 18 GHz TV I generally see a picture in about 3 seconds. When I plug that same cable into a projector it can take 15 to even 30 seconds to see a picture.
> 
> The positive news for JVC and Sony is their current projector models have improved HDMI input designs. So, as I have posted before the 9 GHz edge rate versus the 18 GHz edge rate is a smaller issue than it was before, especially with my recommended Tributaries UHDV "Vega" fiber cable (and some other active fiber cables are also good). However, it can still be an issue you can improve on by using a 9 GHz output card on the Radiance Pro since other projectors can still have marginal HDMI input designs.



Ruipro Hybrid hdmi cables are often recommended here for long runs. How do these cables handle 18 GHz ?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

ShaharT said:


> Thanks much!
> How can I tell which input/output cards my Lumagen has?



Press OK on remote and each time you do a new OSD appears on screen. One of them will have YNNN:NN or aomething like that on it. Y means 18GHz and N means 9GHz.


----------



## audioguy

blake said:


> Ruipro Hybrid hdmi cables are often recommended here for long runs. How do these cables handle 18 GHz ?




Perfectly. I us this one:


Fiber HDMI Cable RUIPRO 4K60HZ 33 feet Light Speed HDMI2.0b Cable, Supports 18.2 Gbps, ARC, HDR10, Dolby Vision, HDCP2.2, 4:4:4, Ultra Slim and Flexible HDMI Optic Cable with Optic Technology 10m (from Amazon)


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> 2) Not sure if you are trying to be funny about smoking projectors. In any case, the difference between 9 GHz and 18 GHz will not cause physical damage. The issues are not-locking on, lock-on time, and drop-outs within content once locked on.
> 
> I am not going to comment on brands with the most HDMI issues.
> 
> 3) Early 18 GHz input projectors all seemed to have what I consider as marginal HDMI inputs. I think a good way to demo this is when I take a Pro output and plug it into a mainstream 18 GHz TV I generally see a picture in about 3 seconds. When I plug that same cable into a projector it can take 15 to even 30 seconds to see a picture.
> 
> s.


Why yes, astute of you to pick that up. See when someone makes a generalization I can in general either respond abruptly and rudely, or try to approach it in a more humorous manner.

For example if I was a 911 operator and someone called and said "I'm not well. Can you help?" My initial reaction would be to say " can you be a bit more specific you idiot". Or I could try keep it light and highlight two extremes that are covered by vague useless information. Eg , id say "so do you have a tummy ache, or did you fall off the roof of an apartment complex into a glass delivery truck, and your innards are hanging out". So I was trying to take my second approach to you comment.


----------



## Craig Peer

I have to stop checking at Lumagen software update page.


----------



## jrp

I was too optimistic on having a new release last week.

We are still working to get an FPGA that meets timing. When I posted, I thought we had one but had an issue with output 2 during my testing. When the timing issue is with I/O pins it often takes manual intervention to correct, which adds time.

In parallel with the Synthesis runs, Pat is working on some additional scenes that will benefit from the new zone based analysis.

Might have a release this weekend, but until we get the FPGA to meet timing cannot say for sure.


----------



## jrp

To add to what Gordon said about checking the I/O configuration:

Press OK four times to get to Info Pg 4. If you have disabled the "Show Info Pg on an 'OK' key," navigate to Info Pg 4 using the menu (MENU->Info and then press OK until you get to Info Pg 4).

At lower left is the status field Gordon mentioned. This is in a different color to make it easy to see and looks like "18G: IIII/OO,n" or for a 4200 is looks like "18G: II/O,n".

The "I" field is for each input card (two inputs each), the "O" is for each output card (two outputs each). An "N" means not-18G (i.e. a 9 GHz card), a "Y" means an 18 GHz card, and a "-" means no card in that slot.

The "n" field is 0 for the original 18 GHz output microcode and "n" = 1 is for the new 18 GHz output microcode.


----------



## fatherom

From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:

"_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it. Madvr I get as enthusiast based and stuck with a grotesque bloated windows OS base. But after dealing with Lumagen and their utter BS with these stupid 9ghz and 18 GHz options and the utter garbage and unclear info, I'm sick of them too. These freaks are just flat out incompetent. Madvr on the other hand has their sxxt together. Even if this is a bit clunky, it sounds way better than dealing with those other fools._"


----------



## Gordon Fraser

fatherom said:


> From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:
> 
> "_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it. Madvr I get as enthusiast based and stuck with a grotesque bloated windows OS base. But after dealing with Lumagen and their utter BS with these stupid 9ghz and 18 GHz options and the utter garbage and unclear info, I'm sick of them too. These freaks are just flat out incompetent. Madvr on the other hand has their sxxt together. Even if this is a bit clunky, it sounds way better than dealing with those other fools._"



Honestly, if someone thinks that Lumagen are clueless then i have little respect for their opinion. Probably the last word I'd use to describe Lumagen is incompetent...They are also the most customer centric company i've ever dealt with in my over 30years in the domestic av industry. But, hey, that's just my opinion....


----------



## loggeo

fatherom said:


> From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:
> 
> "_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it. Madvr I get as enthusiast based and stuck with a grotesque bloated windows OS base. But after dealing with Lumagen and their utter BS with these stupid 9ghz and 18 GHz options and the utter garbage and unclear info, I'm sick of them too. These freaks are just flat out incompetent. Madvr on the other hand has their sxxt together. Even if this is a bit clunky, it sounds way better than dealing with those other fools._"



Come on man! Really?


----------



## Killroy

fatherom said:


> From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:
> 
> "_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it. Madvr I get as enthusiast based and stuck with a grotesque bloated windows OS base. But after dealing with Lumagen and their utter BS with these stupid 9ghz and 18 GHz options and the utter garbage and unclear info, I'm sick of them too. These freaks are just flat out incompetent. Madvr on the other hand has their sxxt together. Even if this is a bit clunky, it sounds way better than dealing with those other fools._"


I think that statement (the one you quoted) says more about the comprehension skills of that person than the product. I have read the Lumagen web site, and from their dealers, and it makes perfect sense to me..... and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Killroy said:


> *I think that statement (the one you quoted) says more about the comprehension skills of that person than the product.* I have read the Lumagen web site, and from their dealers, and it makes perfect sense to me..... and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.


I agree. Also any dealer that halfway knows the product should be able to explain the difference, need and reasoning behind 9GHz and 18GHz inputs and outputs. At this time, I bet nearly everyone buying a Lumagen for 4k HT usage gets 18GHZ input and output.


----------



## DannyBoy73

I'm sure it's been typed purely to provoke a reaction from people... If he really struggles to understand the whole 9Ghz and 18GHz options, then natural selection will take care of him anyway...


----------



## Craig Peer

DannyBoy73 said:


> I'm sure it's been typed purely to provoke a reaction from people... If he really struggles to understand the whole 9Ghz and 18GHz options, then natural selection will take care of him anyway...


Some people are better off just buying a TV and using the built in speakers, since even a receiver can be too complicated for some folks.


----------



## audioguy

If you are still using "floaties", you are not supposed to be in the deep water !


----------



## Kris Deering

The problem with comments like that is that they don't seem to understand the big picture. HDMI is a crappy interface AT BEST and if Lumagen just said screw it, we are only offering HDMI output X, then all those with crappy HDMI inputs would be screwed. Instead you have a company that gives you options to ensure you have proper connectivity and these can easily be upgraded when you later get a display that doesn't have the same issues. You take zero hit in picture quality and the only time there is even a difference in output is with 60p based material, which makes up a minuscule fraction of the video market. 

Then saying that MadVR has their stuff together in this regard is EXTREMELY short sided since the number of actual units in the wild is nearly zero in comparison to Lumagen's. Madshi already stated that HDMI is an issue and that it is taking up a lot of time, and I think that will continue to be the case as more and more of the Envy's hit the market. I don't say this to throw shade, I've just worked with quite a few manufacturers on video processors and switchers over the years and EVERY ONE OF THEM talked about how much of a PITA HDMI is to work with and how much time it sucks up. So it is an unfortunate reality that will effect ANYONE trying to make a product that takes in HDMI for processing and then puts it back out.


----------



## Craig Peer

Sort of odd that a company would be criticized for giving folks more options.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

fatherom said:


> From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:
> 
> "_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it. Madvr I get as enthusiast based and stuck with a grotesque bloated windows OS base. But after dealing with Lumagen and their utter BS with these stupid 9ghz and 18 GHz options and the utter garbage and unclear info, I'm sick of them too. These freaks are just flat out incompetent. Madvr on the other hand has their sxxt together. Even if this is a bit clunky, it sounds way better than dealing with those other fools._"


Your above "clunky" comments speaks to your own lack of credibility and judgment. Just goes to show you can't please everyone no matter how excellent a product is and the company that stands behind the product.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> To add to what Gordon said about checking the I/O configuration:
> 
> Press OK four times to get to Info Pg 4. If you have disabled the "Show Info Pg on an 'OK' key," navigate to Info Pg 4 using the menu (MENU->Info and then press OK until you get to Info Pg 4).
> 
> At lower left is the status field Gordon mentioned. This is in a different color to make it easy to see and looks like "18G: IIII/OO,n" or for a 4200 is looks like "18G: II/O,n".
> 
> The "I" field is for each input card (two inputs each), the "O" is for each output card (two outputs each). An "N" means not-18G (i.e. a 9 GHz card), a "Y" means an 18 GHz card, and a "-" means no card in that slot.
> 
> The "n" field is 0 for the original 18 GHz output microcode and "n" = 1 is for the new 18 GHz output microcode.


Thanks! I see 18G: YYYY/NY, 0.
Should I switch to the new 18 GHz output microcode, and if so how?


----------



## Karl Maga

fatherom said:


> From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:
> 
> "_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it..._"


Dude, it was a total d’bag move to post this here, regardless of your intent. :frown:


----------



## Willie

fatherom said:


> From another thread...I don't agree with this person's assessment, but I think it's important for Lumagen (and its dealers) to be aware of all customer sentiment. In these unprecedented times, in order to do well economically, we may need to work extra hard to make sure any potential customer isn't "put off" by the product's complexity:
> 
> "_I've spent a lot of time looking at madvr and Lumagen and frankly my overall reaction is utter disgust with it. Madvr I get as enthusiast based and stuck with a grotesque bloated windows OS base. But after dealing with Lumagen and their utter BS with these stupid 9ghz and 18 GHz options and the utter garbage and unclear info, I'm sick of them too. These freaks are just flat out incompetent. Madvr on the other hand has their sxxt together. Even if this is a bit clunky, it sounds way better than dealing with those other fools._"


Life is too short to have to wade through this type of post. Pretty sure if I read this post in another thread I would have quickly used the ignore function. The irony of referring to AV professionals on this forum as "fools" speaks for itself.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

ShaharT said:


> Thanks! I see 18G: YYYY/NY, 0.
> Should I switch to the new 18 GHz output microcode, and if so how?



If your system works functionally and is robust in operation then there is no need to alter micro code. There is no micro code image enhancement, it's all about functionality and robustness 



to swap between them you do shortcut




menu 0 8 5 1 (new)


menu 0 8 5 0 (original)


----------



## riddle

I just watched UHD Maleficent: Mistress of Evil and it seems to me that Lumagen ADTM doesn't well work on this movie. The same scene becomes lighter or go darker. Some problem i saw on Terminator: Dark Fate on some scene. For example, as they flee from a factory in a car. I watched a lot of movies this week and no one else did this. Fo example to day i watched movies on UHD like Lucy or 1917 and this was have really amazing PQ without any mistakes.


Does anyone have a similar problem?


Thank you


----------



## Mike Garrett

riddle said:


> I just watched UHD Maleficent: Mistress of Evil and it seems to me that Lumagen ADTM doesn't well work on this movie. The same scene becomes lighter or go darker. Some problem i saw on Terminator: Dark Fate on some scene. For example, as they flee from a factory in a car. I watched a lot of movies this week and no one else did this. Fo example to day i watched movies on UHD like Lucy or 1917 and this was have really amazing PQ without any mistakes.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a similar problem?
> 
> 
> Thank you


I don't remember seeing any issues with Maleficent Mistress of Evil.


----------



## jrp

riddle said:


> I just watched UHD Maleficent: Mistress of Evil and it seems to me that Lumagen ADTM doesn't well work on this movie. The same scene becomes lighter or go darker. Some problem i saw on Terminator: Dark Fate on some scene. For example, as they flee from a factory in a car. I watched a lot of movies this week and no one else did this. Fo example to day i watched movies on UHD like Lucy or 1917 and this was have really amazing PQ without any mistakes.


This could be one of the cases the new zone-based DTM will help since this is exactly the type of issue we are addressing with this new feature. Not sure until the Zone-based is released and the scenes are viewed again. Once it is released, please view the scenes again with the new version. Then if you still have issues, please email Lumagen support email and include a description of the issue and include the movie and time stamp(s). We will see if we can improve the scene(s) if the new zone-based needs additional tuning.


----------



## uderman

I currently own a 65" Sony A1E OLED. I am likely going to get a 77" OLED soon. With the Radiance Pro (18GHz In and out), is there a model to look for? It seems my current options are Sony A9G, LG B9 and C9. My current Sony A1E is good but looks too digital (with all enhancements disabled). I also own a Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-141FD Plasma which looks much more film like and I would still continue to use if I didn't own a significant size 4K disc library. Perhaps I should give LG C9 a try ? but then it might turn out even more processed looking. Any input and advice is appreciated.


----------



## ShaharT

Gordon Fraser said:


> If your system works functionally and is robust in operation then there is no need to alter micro code. There is no micro code image enhancement, it's all about functionality and robustness
> 
> 
> 
> to swap between them you do shortcut
> 
> 
> 
> 
> menu 0 8 5 1 (new)
> 
> 
> menu 0 8 5 0 (original)


Did menu 0851 - lost all image. Got really scared. Did menu 0850 - got image back. All good.

After the scare is over, maybe I should have switched the projector off after the 0851 for a resynch. But anyway as you say there's no image enhancement and my system is robust, I'll stop with 'experimenting'


----------



## SJHT

Mike Garrett said:


> I don't remember seeing any issues with Maleficent Mistress of Evil.


Neither did I. Would be helpful to have exact time stamps if folks are having issues as it could be related to something else. There was a scene in Alita that I thought was having an issue as the screen kept going from dark/light. Upon further inspection, there was a lighted sign behind the characters off to the side that was blinking on and off.


----------



## riddle

I know roughly where it was so I'll try to write a time interval (when children go to sleep)...


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Did menu 0851 - lost all image. Got really scared. Did menu 0850 - got image back. All good.
> 
> After the scare is over, maybe I should have switched the projector off after the 0851 for a resynch. But anyway as you say there's no image enhancement and my system is robust, I'll stop with 'experimenting'


Thanks for mentioning the issue switching 18 GHz output microcode concerning loss of picture.

I am starting to recommend that when you change the 18 GHz output microcode (MENU 0850 for original or MENU 0851 for new 18 GHz code) that you turn off the projector/TV and audio processor, or perhaps disconnect their wall power. The reason is the reload of the output microcode causes non-standard HDMI output conditions. We are seeing some projectors go out to lunch when these unexpected conditions occur.

If you update the 18 GHz output microcode, and are not getting a picture after the change, not a big deal. Just pull wall power from the projector/TV or audio processor and plug back in. This cold-boot should get it up and running again. Then if there are still issue, reload the 18 GHz output microcode that was working.

Note that the original 18 GHz output microcode is the default and is the recommended output microcode to use, with the following exception.

The reason to consider the new 18 GHz output microcode has lower jitter than the original output microcode. The original 18 GHz output microcode has low jitter, just not as low as the new 18 GHz output microcode. The even lower jitter of the new 18 GHz output microcode can help with marginal projector inputs since it gives them more of the HDMI margin.

One caveat is that some products do not work well with the new microcode from the chip vendor. For example, we recommend against using the new microcode with Sony projectors. There may be other products as well. 

Another benefit of the lower jitter is it may improve the audio if you have excellent audio gear. A major factor in audio quality is the jitter at the Digital-to-Analog-Converter (DAC) and lowering the jitter at the input to the audio processor can translate into lower jitter at the DAC. I have had people call asking "why does the audio sound better going through the Radiance Pro when it does not process audio?" The answer is that both the original and new microcode 18 GHz output microcode have lower output jitter than the sources we know about.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> Thanks for mentioning the issue switching 18 GHz output microcode concerning loss of picture.
> 
> I am starting to recommend that when you change the 18 GHz output microcode (MENU 0850 for original or MENU 0851 for new 18 GHz code) that you turn off the projector/TV and audio processor, or perhaps disconnect their wall power. The reason is the reload of the output microcode causes non-standard HDMI output conditions. We are seeing some projectors go out to lunch when these unexpected conditions occur.
> 
> If you update the 18 GHz output microcode, and are not getting a picture after the change, not a big deal. Just pull wall power from the projector/TV or audio processor and plug back in. This cold-boot should get it up and running again. Then if there are still issue, reload the 18 GHz output microcode that was working.
> 
> Note that the original 18 GHz output microcode is the default and is the recommended output microcode to use, with the following exception.
> 
> The reason to consider the new 18 GHz output microcode has lower jitter than the original output microcode. The original 18 GHz output microcode has low jitter, just not as low as the new 18 GHz output microcode. The even lower jitter of the new 18 GHz output microcode can help with marginal projector inputs since it gives them more of the HDMI margin.
> 
> One caveat is that some products do not work well with the new microcode from the chip vendor. For example, we recommend against using the new microcode with Sony projectors. There may be other products as well.
> 
> Another benefit of the lower jitter is it may improve the audio if you have excellent audio gear. A major factor in audio quality is the jitter at the Digital-to-Analog-Converter (DAC) and lowering the jitter at the input to the audio processor can translate into lower jitter at the DAC. I have had people call asking "why does the audio sound better going through the Radiance Pro when it does not process audio?" The answer is that both the original and new microcode 18 GHz output microcode have lower output jitter than the sources we know about.


Thanks for the clear explanation. I'm with a Sony 995, so based on you saying Sony projectors don't like the new HDMI code, I won't try again. Although the lower jitter on Audio sounds useful! Too bad.


----------



## SJHT

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the clear explanation. I'm with a Sony 995, so based on you saying Sony projectors don't like the new HDMI code, I won't try again. Although the lower jitter on Audio sounds useful! Too bad.


I have the same projector and have been running the new code for quite some time. No issues.... SJ


----------



## ShaharT

SJHT said:


> I have the same projector and have been running the new code for quite some time. No issues.... SJ


Your comment encouraged me to try again. Shut down the projector, applied the code, turned on - and all is great, with the new hdmi code  So thanks for telling me it's possible.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> Another benefit of the lower jitter is it may improve the audio if you have excellent audio gear. A major factor in audio quality is the jitter at the Digital-to-Analog-Converter (DAC) and lowering the jitter at the input to the audio processor can translate into lower jitter at the DAC. I have had people call asking "why does the audio sound better going through the Radiance Pro when it does not process audio?" The answer is that both the original and new microcode 18 GHz output microcode have lower output jitter than the sources we know about.


This is interesting. Do you know where I could find something more to read about this? I currently believe that because the signal is digital, and it is received without errors in both ways, there cant be any difference going through the radiance or not. And if there are errors, it just doesn't work at all or cuts etc. Without processing it cant "sound better".

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


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## jrp

MDesigns said:


> This is interesting. Do you know where I could find something more to read about this? I currently believe that because the signal is digital, and it is received without errors in both ways, there cant be any difference going through the radiance or not. And if there are errors, it just doesn't work at all or cuts etc. Without processing it cant "sound better".


Google "Audio clock jitter"

I did this and one site that came up that has some good info is:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter1_e.html


----------



## Vinturbo

I own the PRO radiance with 18 GHZ inputs and outputs. I would like to experiment with 9 GHZ output. what is the right MENUXXXX code? Is it possible to have a complete and updated list of all MENUXXXX codes?
THANK YOU!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Vinturbo said:


> I own the PRO radiance with 18 GHZ inputs and outputs. I would like to experiment with 9 GHZ output. what is the right MENUXXXX code? Is it possible to have a complete and updated lirst of all MENUXXXX codes?
> THANK YOU!





With an 18GHz output card, even outputting 9GHz bandwidth, you will not get the same benefit in HDMI transmission as you would with a 9GHz card. This is because the 18GHz card has faster edge rates than the 9GHz regardless of what signal type it is outputting. To force 9Ghz you can navigate to 

MENU>OUTPUT>STYLES>STYLE (IN USE)>HDMI FORMAT>TYPE> AND CHANGE TO AUTO 9GHz.


shortcut menu 0873 - Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off (4K24 is already within 9GHz)


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## Vinturbo

Thank you Gordon!


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## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> I own the PRO radiance with 18 GHZ inputs and outputs. I would like to experiment with 9 GHZ output. what is the right MENUXXXX code? Is it possible to have a complete and updated list of all MENUXXXX codes?
> THANK YOU!


For 9 GHz maximum at 50 or 60 (only), enter MENU 0873

For 18 GHz maximum at 50 or 60 (only), enter MENU 0874

To add 4k24 and 4k25 as possible output rates (when appropriate), after either of the above, enter MENU 0872

Save your changes.

==== 

There are a list of the direct codes in the back of the Radiance Pro manual here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals

Someone published a more complete list in the past, but we do not have the list. Some of the commands on that list are not ones most need or should be using. The manual has the most useful of the direct commands.


----------



## jrp

This is my second response to MDesigns post. The first was on jitter. This one adds more on jitter, and adds bit-error-rate (BER) and electrical noise to the equation.

Every HDMI connection will have a statistical probability of a non-zero Bit-Error-Rate (BER). This is in the nature of the non-return-to-zero (NRZ) data interface used, and the need for using PLLs to generate clocks for the NRZ signals. 

The error rate is never zero. However, in the Radiance Pro design I strive for as low an output jitter (and electrical noise. More on this below) as reasonably possible. Jitter above the HDMI specification limit will likely lead to a higher bit-error rate, which can degrade the image.

From a viewer’s perspective, low jitter, is really all about eliminating bit-errors, to get accurate pixels on the screen. In general, you cannot see any picture difference unless a source has so much jitter there is a higher bit error rate. In the "1080 days" you would see bit errors as "sparkles" on the screen. The 4K HDMI chips have "error masking." This pretty much eliminates the sparkles. Bit-errors still degrade the picture, but now this is more in a loss of fine details as the masking filters neighboring pixels to hide the bit errors. This is a subtle but real issue for 4k video.

I get questions frequently of "I see a picture quality improvement when I use XXX cable versus YYY cable, am I imagining this?" HDMI cables can, and do, make a difference in picture quality. Output jitter, and projector/TV HDMI input design, are also a key part of accurate pixel data, and of course to getting a reliable connection in the first place.

HDMI connections must always be considered as a system. Each part has a role to play in getting the pixels to the projector/TV screen accurately. Having a low jitter output, and certainly one that meets the HDMI specification, is essential to accurate pixels on the screen. Then you need a cable with reasonable attenuation profile, correct single-ended and differential impedances, and as few “transmission line discontinuities” as possible. Finally, you need an HDMI input on the projector/TV that not only has few discontinuities, but also that follows the best practices for microwave circuit design techniques. This last seems to be the Achilles heel of many projectors.

So, what about electrical noise on an HDMI output? How does it affect the HDMI signal? Simply stated, electrical noise increases the jitter at the receiving device. Even though HDMI signaling is differential, the noise is not perfectly balanced and so increases jitter. It can also cause a complete loss of signal seen as a video dropout in some cases. Another issue is that the electrical noise is injected into the circuitry of the connected device. For a projector or TV that uses an analog display technology, such as LCOS and DILA, this can cause noise in the image. While many consumer DLP projectors suffer from low contrast, they are digital display devices and so are not significantly impacted by this injected noise.

In the Radiance Pro design, we not only have the best features, and DTM, we also have the best electrical performance. The HDMI connection matters a lot if you want the best image on the screen. From the HDMI specification, I calculated the jitter requirement for 18 GHz as 101 pS, or less, for data channels. The current Radiance Pro release as I write this (011119) was measured on a Tektronix HDMI tester at 90 pS for data channels running at 18 GHz and had a low electrical noise level. Note that different FPGA loads may have slightly different jitter, but likely within about 10% or so. For comparison, a high-end PC HDMI output recently measured at 450 pS of jitter at 18 GHz and had over a volt of electrical noise. This jitter and electrical noise is enough that the Tektronix had issues recognizing and locking on to the PC's HDMI signal. The PCs 4.5 times spec jitter and extreme noise IMO will degrade image quality.

At Lumagen we have always strived to have the best video processing, but also to be the reference standard for electrical design. I have not really discussed these electrical requirements much and hope this post helps everyone understand this extremely important aspect of design, and how much it affects audio quality and image quality.


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> .....
> In the Radiance Pro design, we not only have the best features, and DTM, we also have the best electrical performance. The HDMI connection matters a lot if you want the best image on the screen. From the HDMI specification, I calculated the jitter requirement for 18 GHz as 101 pS, or less, for data channels. The current Radiance Pro release as I write this (011119) was measured on a Tektronix HDMI tester at 90 pS for data channels running at 18 GHz and had a low electrical noise level. Note that different FPGA loads may have slightly different jitter, but likely within about 10% or so. For comparison, a high-end PC HDMI output recently measured at 450 pS of jitter at 18 GHz and had over a volt of electrical noise. This jitter and electrical noise is enough that the Tektronix had issues recognizing and locking on to the PC's HDMI signal. The PCs 4.5 times spec jitter and extreme noise IMO will degrade image quality.
> 
> At Lumagen we have always strived to have the best video processing, but also to be the reference standard for electrical design. I have not really discussed these electrical requirements much and hope this post helps everyone understand this extremely important aspect of design, and how much it affects audio quality and image quality.



Interesting. Thanks for the post. Could you comment what the high end PC Card was with 450 pS of jitter ? Was it latest generation Nvidia by any chance ?


----------



## Die Zwei

Thanks Jim for this really interesting information.

In my opinion, this is most important piece:



jrp said:


> In the "1080 days" you would see bit errors as "sparkles" on the screen. The 4K HDMI chips have "error masking." This pretty much eliminates the sparkles. Bit-errors still degrade the picture, but now this is more in a loss of fine details as the masking filters neighboring pixels to hide the bit errors. This is a subtle but real issue for 4k video.


This explains why it is not obvious to spot degradation in quality with 4K material like it was with FHD material.
Can you elaborate a bit more on sound? As far as i know, there´s a similar mechanism for audio streams in the HDMI specification. If error rate gets too high, stream quality is somehow reduced.
Do you have additional information on this?


----------



## audioguy

I don't know if this question is related to the Lumagen but since there are smart people here, I thought I would ask. My 3 sources are connected to the Lumagen: AppleTV, Oppo 203 and Nvidia Shield running Plex (for watching ripped movies).

And this issue just sort of showed up as I have had the Shield for quite some time. On most occasions, when I selected the Shield as an input, the screen image is all green. If I switch to another input, and then back to the Shield, everything is OK. 

Any ideas of the cause --- and the cure?


----------



## NewYorkRock

Just connected my Shield to the Lumagen, same problem. Green screen.


----------



## audioguy

NewYorkRock said:


> Just connected my Shield to the Lumagen, same problem. Green screen.



Interesting. I don't know if Jim Peterson has a Shield, but if so, maybe he can check. Not the end of the world, but frustrating nonetheless!


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> Interesting. I don't know if Jim Peterson has a Shield, but if so, maybe he can check. Not the end of the world, but frustrating nonetheless!



I don’t have the same problem but i connect my lumagen via crestron and when first run i should press the source again to connect and give the right info flag to the projector HD or HDR to switch auto 

If i don’t repress the same source first time or not change to another source i don’t get the right source flag 

But i don’t get green screen or black image 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ysati

I don't know if this is a problem, but in
  CMS1, colorspace = SDR2020, when we make info on the remote control we have SDH2020?
What does the H mean?
On the other hand for HDR sources the Radiance remains in CMS0.
To be in CMS1 you have to change CMS0 to CMS1.
Is there something I did wrong?


----------



## jrp

ysati said:


> I don't know if this is a problem, but in
> CMS1, colorspace = SDR2020, when we make info on the remote control we have SDH2020?
> What does the H mean?
> On the other hand for HDR sources the Radiance remains in CMS0.
> To be in CMS1 you have to change CMS0 to CMS1.
> Is there something I did wrong?


We needed a way to specify that the output was SDR but that the output HDR flag is set. The "SDH" in the Info pPage means the output is SDR, but the HDR flag is set. This is a feature specific to the JVC projectors as discussed below.

The *only* time you should have the HDR flag set with the output set to SDR is *if* you have a JVC projector, and *if* you have the memory selected in the JVC when the HDR Flag is set to have a Gamma of 2.4.

For other brands of projectors and for all TVs, setting the HDR flag = on with output in an SDR mode will prevent you from getting a good picture.

===== 

Since you were trying to calibrate, if you change the Output Setup to use CMS0, you need to change it back.

In the Output Setup->2D sub menu, select All for Input, memory, and input mode, then under the HDR/2020 CMS column select CMS1. Press OK to accept, then EXIT.

Make sure that all four items in the Global->Video->Src Format sub-menu say "Yes."

Save any changes.

If your source is not in HDR mode for an HDR source, tun it off and back on. Many devices (incorrectly) will not output HDR if they do not see the HDR EDID when they turn on (or for some when you play HDR) they will never go into HDR mode even if the downstream device (in this case the Radiance Pro) toggles Hot Plug to have the source reread EDID with HDR reported.


----------



## sjschaff

audioguy said:


> I don't know if this question is related to the Lumagen but since there are smart people here, I thought I would ask. My 3 sources are connected to the Lumagen: AppleTV, Oppo 203 and Nvidia Shield running Plex (for watching ripped movies).
> 
> And this issue just sort of showed up as I have had the Shield for quite some time. On most occasions, when I selected the Shield as an input, the screen image is all green. If I switch to another input, and then back to the Shield, everything is OK.
> 
> Any ideas of the cause --- and the cure?



Whenever I run into something like this the first question I ask myself is "what the #!&*#$ did I change. Was it moving the input cable to a different input on the Lumagen? Or am I trying to play HDR material on an Input card on the Lumagen that's 9 GHz (I know this is not going to work or at least work well, as I had to upgrade my input cards to 18 GHz and futz with Kodi). I've no clue how different Plex deals with resolutions, after you make such a HW upgrade. 



Any other config changes made in the Lumagen setup???


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> I don't know if this question is related to the Lumagen but since there are smart people here, I thought I would ask. My 3 sources are connected to the Lumagen: AppleTV, Oppo 203 and Nvidia Shield running Plex (for watching ripped movies).
> 
> And this issue just sort of showed up as I have had the Shield for quite some time. On most occasions, when I selected the Shield as an input, the screen image is all green. If I switch to another input, and then back to the Shield, everything is OK.
> 
> Any ideas of the cause --- and the cure?


Press OK on the Pro remote to bring up the Info Screen. Do you see the Info Screen?

If yes, does it report the correct input resolution, or does it say "NA" for input resolution?

On the Info screen what is reported for the Input HDCP mode and is it correct?

==== 

If you do not see the Info screen, than it most likely means the source is retrying all the time, trying to connect and overloading our control microprocessor. This then prevents it from updating the output "frame buffer pointer." This would mean the Shield output cannot get sync'd up with the Pro input.

If you see the Info Page and it reports NA, the Pro is not locked on to the source output, but that the source is not overwhelming the Pro's microprocessor with retry interrupts.

If you see the Info Page and the input resolution is reporting correctly, then likely the green screen is coming from the source. We cannot be certain though as there is a chance it is some "not quite there" condition in the Pro's input chip.

If HDCP is Off or not the right mode, it is possible the source is sending a blank screen (in this case green) because of the inability to confirm HDCP.

Since the input chips are autonomous, this could be a compatibility issue between the Shield output chip and the Pro's input chip. Cannot be sure what though. We have seen issues where a source changes its output but not its HDMI Info Frame. Not saying this is it as there is no way for us to tell.

==== 

We do have an NVidea Shield in the lab. I will see if Pat can reproduce this issue. Please email Lumagen support email with details on how to reproduce this and that switching inputs and back resolves it.

We actually use our FPGA to detect cases where the Input chip says "all is well" when in fact it isn't. For conditions like this we restart the input chip, which is similar to switching away and back to the problem input. This could be a new case of this.

==== 
[EDIT]

In general program the Pro to start up on an unused input, or not the one you likely will be watching. Then after the Pro is up and running (say 5 seconds), then select the input you want. You can program this in to your control system startup procedure. This has resolved issues where at power on you do not get a correct image.

This is in the Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select.

You can also enable "Delay Selection" in that menu, which adds 3 seconds to the first input start and can also resolve start up issues.


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the post. Could you comment what the high end PC Card was with 450 pS of jitter ? Was it latest generation Nvidia by any chance ?


I am not wanting to comment on the hardware. However, you are welcome to surmise what hardware we would have been most interested in testing.


----------



## ysati

jrp said:


> We needed a way to specify that the output was SDR but that the output HDR flag is set. The "SDH" in the Info pPage means the output is SDR, but the HDR flag is set. This is a feature specific to the JVC projectors as discussed below.
> 
> The *only* time you should have the HDR flag set with the output set to SDR is *if* you have a JVC projector, and *if* you have the memory selected in the JVC when the HDR Flag is set to have a Gamma of 2.4.
> 
> For other brands of projectors and for all TVs, setting the HDR flag = on with output in an SDR mode will prevent you from getting a good picture.
> 
> =====
> 
> Since you were trying to calibrate, if you change the Output Setup to use CMS0, you need to change it back.
> 
> In the Output Setup->2D sub menu, select All for Input, memory, and input mode, then under the HDR/2020 CMS column select CMS1. Press OK to accept, then EXIT.
> 
> Make sure that all four items in the Global->Video->Src Format sub-menu say "Yes."
> 
> Save any changes.
> 
> If your source is not in HDR mode for an HDR source, tun it off and back on. Many devices (incorrectly) will not output HDR if they do not see the HDR EDID when they turn on (or for some when you play HDR) they will never go into HDR mode even if the downstream device (in this case the Radiance Pro) toggles Hot Plug to have the source reread EDID with HDR reported.


Thank You It's OK


----------



## jrp

hockyAVS said:


> Thanks Jim for this really interesting information.
> 
> In my opinion, this is most important piece:
> 
> This explains why it is not obvious to spot degradation in quality with 4K material like it was with FHD material.
> Can you elaborate a bit more on sound? As far as i know, there´s a similar mechanism for audio streams in the HDMI specification. If error rate gets too high, stream quality is somehow reduced.
> 
> Do you have additional information on this?


Other than conjecture, I do not know what the bit-error masking algorithm used in 4k HDMI input chips is. I believe (but am not 100% certain) the error masking is in the "receiver" section of the HDMI input chip, before the audio is split out. So the error-masking is at the "bit-level" for the data the receiver believes is corrupt.

The error masking could be as simple as "repeat the last valid data value." I suspect this is likely what is done as it is the easiest to do. This is what I would do.

Audio processors use extremely long filters. These will be either Finite-Impulse-Response (FIR), or Infinite-Impulse-Response (IIR) filters. Google these if you want more info.

FIR and IIR filters with 256 taps (reasonably typical I believe) of either type are not going to be perturbed badly by a single repeated value. However, a single wrong value does increase the distortion, if ever so slightly. With multiple errors this distortion can become significant.

One advantage of using the Pro "Audio only" output mode is it runs at either 1080i, or 720p. These "HD" rates can tolerate significantly more jitter than UHD signals before you see additional bit errors.

However, for audio, HDMI jitter is still just as important at HD rates as it is at UHD rates since the HDMI signal continues to be the source used by the audio-processor for its audio clocking. So, while the HDMI specification allows for a larger amount of jitter for 720/1080i, you still want the lowest jitter possible to achieve the best possible audio quality.

==== 

Your next question likely is: "Doesn't the input to the Pro have both audio and video? How does that affect audio quality out of the Radiance Pro?"

Excellent question 

The Pro HDMI audio output clock is independent of the HDMI source clock, with an exception. Genlock mode does not affect audio only output mode. However, if you use audio+video output mode to the audio processor, for the best audio quality turn Genlock mode off (default). This should minimize the clock jitter to the output chips, which reduces the HDMI audio jitter out of the Pro.

Since the Pro output clock for audio only output is independent of the source clock jitter, the factor you need to discuss for the source audio into the Pro is bit-error-rate. This depends on the quality of the source's output design. The Pro input design is very good even with a marginal signal, but you need at least a decent output from the source. Given our jitter test results form a PC, that I posted yesterday, you likely want to avoid a PC as a source, if you want the best audio, and video for that matter.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> This is my second response to MDesigns post. The first was on jitter. This one adds more on jitter, and adds bit-error-rate (BER) and electrical noise to the equation.


Thank you for a very comprehensive answer, I appreciate it. Apparently it is not so easy and straight forward as I thought!

I wonder if there would be a possibility to measure the effects of jitter, noise, etc. to the picture and sound quality? Jitter amount itself doesn't mean much to me, but if the effects would be measureable then that is a totally different thing. PC graphics cards are used for huge amounts of pixel peeping jobs, so they cant be really bad. Errors would probably be easier to see with a pc monitor doing work than with a projector playing video.

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## thrang

More pressing planetary issues aside, is there a rough idea when the zone -based firmware may be released? I mean, you have a lot of beta testers now waiting at home!


----------



## Die Zwei

Thanks, Jim.



jrp said:


> Other than conjecture, I do not know what the bit-error masking algorithm used in 4k HDMI input chips is. I believe (but am not 100% certain) the error masking is in the "receiver" section of the HDMI input chip, before the audio is split out. So the error-masking is at the "bit-level" for the data the receiver believes is corrupt.
> 
> The error masking could be as simple as "repeat the last valid data value." I suspect this is likely what is done as it is the easiest to do. This is what I would do.


I guess it´s more something like a ECC mechanism. In its simplest form, it can at least detect errors, but not correct them. If you use ECC with parity, you´re also able to repair single-bit-errors. I don´t think there´s any mechanism for repeating in the HDMI specification like it is e.g. in the TCP protocol. In an audio or video stream sending pieces of data again wouldn´t be of any use since the audio and video would have continued in the meantime. That´s different to a data package traveling via TCP - you wouldn´t even notice if data packages are repeated multiple times because of resending packages.




> Given our jitter test results form a PC, that I posted yesterday, you likely want to avoid a PC as a source, if you want the best audio, and video for that matter.


I´m with MDesigns on this: i don´t believe PCs deliver bad quality per se. The problem is that a PC consists of a lot of components that interact with each other. If they are poorly designed, they can create problems (mostly, the power supply is the main problem). But if they are well designed and of good quality, they can be used for even the most demandable scenarios.


----------



## ysati

With the JVC N5, for an HDR source, the Radiance Pro must be in SDH2020, therefore with the HDR flag activated.
But I find the image brighter and the colors more saturated, so better in SDR2020, for me, so without the HDR flag activated?
What is the real picture?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

ysati said:


> With the JVC N5, for an HDR source, the Radiance Pro must be in SDH2020, therefore with the HDR flag activated.
> But I find the image brighter and the colors more saturated, so better in SDR2020, for me, so without the HDR flag activated?
> What is the real picture?



They should be the same if both the SDR and HDR preset have the same colourspace, greyscale and gamma settings (ni the N5). It is likely you are looking at difference in settings in the N5 not difference in what the Radiance is doing to signal


----------



## ysati

Gordon Fraser said:


> They should be the same if both the SDR and HDR preset have the same colourspace, greyscale and gamma settings (ni the N5). It is likely you are looking at difference in settings in the N5 not difference in what the Radiance is doing to signal


Thanks Gordon,
so I'm going to check if something changes on the JVC.
I remember that I calibrated the JVC with SDR2020 and not SDH2020.
The best is to use SDH2020 for calibration?


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> I wonder if there would be a possibility to measure the effects of jitter, noise, etc. to the picture and sound quality? Jitter amount itself doesn't mean much to me, but if the effects would be measurable then that is a totally different thing. PC graphics cards are used for huge amounts of pixel peeping jobs, so they cant be really bad. Errors would probably be easier to see with a pc monitor doing work than with a projector playing video.


There is no practical way to measure the effects when driving the projector/TV or audio processor. It would require hardware in the projector/TV dedicated to measuring this. IMO, no manufacturer is going to spend money on this since if it reported issues it would dramatically raise their support costs.

So, in practice you have to evaluate the video quality against a reference standard. Not an easy task unless you have a reference standard to compare against.

=== 

Getting sound and a picture is much different than getting the best possible audio and picture. 

So, I have to disagree with you on the PC output cards. They are bad for both jitter and electrical noise in my experience. In my experience, they also tend to have other HDMI implementation issues. This is likely in part due to all the circuitry in the PC, rather than just the video output card itself, but I also think they may not be following best "microwave" practices for the HDMI output design. These issues are my observations, and others may disagree. Such performance may be acceptable in a gaming setup but I believe it is not acceptable, or at least not desirable, in a high-end theater environment where the goal is the absolute best in audio and video.

I talk to people on a daily basis about resolving issues in their home theaters. I can say that if there is a PC, or a PC derivative product, in the system that the issues are very often with that product. For comparison, consumer sources, such as UHD Bluray players, are almost never part of the issues being reported.

In most gaming systems the PC monitor is close and a 2 meter passive HDMI cable is used to send video to the monitor. From my experience this is a dramatically different environment than sending video over a long cable to a projector or TV.

Obviously PC's are used successfully in millions of systems. My point is all about attaining the absolute best in audio and video.


----------



## sspears

bobof said:


> For what it is worth, this is MammothHD's stock footage page with the original. You can see the detail in the background is no-where near as prominent, and the different tone on the horses.
> https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGallery/RED8G_03/Horse8/MHD_rCD8_vv2517.html
> Personally I'm not sure if the level of detail recovery seemingly being employed here in this shot is desirable if it results in more detail than the original really portrayed being recovered; that would seem a retrograde step if accuracy is what is desired. When I watch that scene on my own setup the relative levels of detail and colouring look much more like the version of the original footage on the MammothHD site.
> 
> And I guess this is in part what @Mike Garrett was saying. If accuracy is your bag, think what was the original supposed to look like, before considering if you like a new version better.
> 
> In any case, I'm not wishing to detract from the offering; I'm certainly mildly envious (pun intended) of anyone who can have both of these in their system for comparison. If you do go for it, I'm sure you'll let us know what you think...


Just want to add a note about comparing against what is on Clark's website. Clark did an *SDR* grade using Redcine-X. We did not use his grade, we went back to the original RAW files and started from scratch w/o looking at Clark's version / vision. Just keep that in mind.  To provide an even better example, take a look at the moose shot on the disc and compare with Clark's. You will probably notice we, and by we I mean the colorist, used power windows to simulate clouds overhead, which is why some parts are brighter than others in frame. Or look at the shot with the sun on the right. That does not exist at all in Clark's.

The problem with HDR is I can't actually show you what is correct unless we view it on the mastering display. 

The closest example I can give is to look at the Dolby Vision version on an LG C9 or CX that has been calibrated by CalMANs autocal. It will be dimmer but the relative brightness in the frame will be correct between the horses and snow.

This shot is really one of the most difficult shots and one I could not be happier with for that. The goal was to put out test material that could be used to improve future algorithms.

For the next version, the montage has been re-graded. Several things have been fixed. One is via VFX work. The newly created sun is at 10,000 nits.

The dish Array in New Mexico
*Original:*









*Replaced:*









Sun and clouds over the water


----------



## docrog

ysati said:


> Thanks Gordon,
> so I'm going to check if something changes on the JVC.
> I remember that I calibrated the JVC with SDR2020 and not SDH2020.
> The best is to use SDH2020 for calibration?


My calibrator, Craig Rounds, set up for HDR BT2020 and chose the Radiance Pro output setting of "HDR BT2020 in an SDR BT2020 color space". There's a Radiance Pro option to send the HDR flag with this color space to the JVC, allowing you to choose either the pre-set JVC HDR or user created custom HDR as the default.


----------



## Die Zwei

jrp said:


> I talk to people on a daily basis about resolving issues in their home theaters. I can say that if there is a PC, or a PC derivative product, in the system that the issues are very often with that product. For comparison, consumer sources, such as UHD Bluray players, are almost never part of the issues being reported.
> 
> In most gaming systems the PC monitor is close and a 2 meter passive HDMI cable is used to send video to the monitor. From my experience this is a dramatically different environment than sending video over a long cable to a projector or TV.
> 
> Obviously PC's are used successfully in millions of systems. My point is all about attaining the absolute best in audio and video.


So we should agree to disagree on this. 
PCs can do a lot more than just gaming. And issues with PCs in a home cinema setup in my experience are mostly because the complexity of a PC is not easy to handle.
A Trinnov is also a "PC derivative product" - i hope we can agree that it can deliver the absolute best at least in audio in that case.


----------



## jrp

thrang said:


> More pressing planetary issues aside, is there a rough idea when the zone -based firmware may be released? I mean, you have a lot of beta testers now waiting at home!


We were close but then some new scenes came to our attention, and we are working on those so we can make the zone-based DTM initial release as good as possible. This caused FPGA changes and we are now working on syntheses for the new FPGA code plus some additional software tweaks for Zone Based DTM.

In talks with Pat there is a small chance of having the release late this week, but it more likely will be next week.


----------



## Karl Maga

hockyAVS said:


> So we should agree to disagree on this.
> PCs can do a lot more than just gaming. And issues with PCs in a home cinema setup in my experience are mostly because the complexity of a PC is not easy to handle.
> A Trinnov is also a "PC derivative product" - i hope we can agree that it can deliver the absolute best at least in audio in that case.


The Trinnov is substantially dissimilar to a PC, having no DSPs. I don’t see that it supports your analogy.


----------



## Die Zwei

Karl Maga said:


> The Trinnov is substantially dissimilar to a PC, having no DSPs. I don’t see that it supports your analogy.


This is going OT, but why would the absence of (hardware) DSPs denote that a device is not a PC?
A Trinnov is not a PC, but it´s PC based.


----------



## Killroy

Any Nvidia Shield 2019 users with the Lumagen for DTM? I would venture to guess that Kodi playback for 4kUHD would be flawless(ish) but what about other streaming services playback on the Shield such as Disney+, AmazonPrime, Netflix, etc? Is the Lumagen properly handling the HDR DTM with those?


----------



## Karl Maga

hockyAVS said:


> This is going OT, but why would the absence of (hardware) DSPs denote that a device is not a PC?
> A Trinnov is not a PC, but it´s PC based.


The point was made that Lumagen makes engineering efforts to improve sound quality, and enhancements to the overall operational experience which their support frequently finds that a PC is disruptive to. 

Your contrary opinion was that the opinion of PCs are problematic is incorrect, and you used Trinnov as a supporting example. Given that PCs cannot make sound without DSPs, and Trinnov has no DSPs, it does not support your point. Furthermore, a Trinnov does not use a GPU (Nvidia, Intel, or ATI) to process video which a PC cannot operate without.


----------



## Die Zwei

Karl Maga said:


> The point was made that the Lumagen makes engineering efforts to improve sound quality, and enhancements to the overall operational experience which their support frequently finds that a PC is disruptive to.
> 
> Your contrary opinion was that the opinion of PCs are problematic is incorrect, and you used Trinnov as a supporting example. Given that PCs cannot make sound without DSPs, and Trinnov has no DSPs, it does not support your point. Furthermore, a Trinnov does not use a GPU (Nvidia, Intel, or ATI) to process video which a PC cannot operate without.


Well, i think this side-discussion leads to nowhere so i suggest to end it.
DSPs can be fully implemented in software, so the absence of hardware DSPs doesn´t mean a device can´t process (and output) audio. And of course can a PC (based device) operate without a GPU.
BTW: you can easily connect a keybord, mouse and a PC monitor to the on-board connectors of the Trinnov (PC) motherboard.

EDIT: Oh, and i didn´t state that i think PCs are not problematic in general (they can be a PITA indeed) - i just don´t agree to the general statement that PC-based products are not capable to produce "highend" audio and/or video.


----------



## ysati

Gordon Fraser said:


> They should be the same if both the SDR and HDR preset have the same colourspace, greyscale and gamma settings (ni the N5). It is likely you are looking at difference in settings in the N5 not difference in what the Radiance is doing to signal


It's Ok.
the problem was the OPPO 203 which was in BT2020.
Now the best is SDH.
Thanks


----------



## loggeo

It is funny though and I would be interested to know why when I go from my gpu's hdmi output to my lumagen I can't get a signal at [email protected], while I have no problem at all when I use my gpu's display port output.
This is the GPU and this is the dp to hdmi adapter I use.


----------



## audioguy

Killroy said:


> Any Nvidia Shield 2019 users with the Lumagen for DTM? I would venture to guess that Kodi playback for 4kUHD would be flawless(ish) but what about other streaming services playback on the Shield such as Disney+, AmazonPrime, Netflix, etc? Is the Lumagen properly handling the HDR DTM with those?



I don't have the most recent Nvidia (previous generation) but I use it for playing ripped movies (Plex) and watching TV programs (YouTube TV) and Amazon. Works great. Can't imagine 4K/HDR life without a Lumagen! And the Shield/Plex combo works perfectly (for my needs). A poor man's Kaleidescape.


----------



## venkatesh_m

ysati said:


> It's Ok.
> 
> the problem was the OPPO 203 which was in BT2020.
> 
> Now the best is SDH.
> 
> Thanks


What is SDH?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


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## NxNW

venkatesh_m said:


> What is SDH?


This was explained literally yesterday in post 7386:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-247.html#post59401542


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## ysati

NxNW said:


> This was explained literally yesterday in post 7386:
> 
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...gen-radiance-pro-series-247.html#post59401542


Jim Peterson replied:
_"We needed a way to specify that the output was SDR but that the output HDR flag is set. So you have the HDR flag set on the output.
The *only* time you should have the HDR flag set with the output set to SDR is *if* you have a JVC projector, and *if* you have the memory selected in the JVC when the HDR Flag is set have a Gamma setting of 2.4.
Otherwise setting the HDR flag = on with output in a SDR mode will prevent you from getting a good picture.
Thanks.
Jim"_

This only applies to the JVC in HDR mode.
If the Radiance receives an HDR source, the CMS1 output must be set to "Colorspace = SDR2020", "HDR Flag = On and
2020 601/709 = "Auto conversion".
When we do info with the remote control, we will have "Output = SDH2020.
This means that the HDR flag is activated.
Otherwise it returns SDR2020.


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> There is no practical way to measure the effects when driving the projector/TV or audio processor. It would require hardware in the projector/TV dedicated to measuring this. IMO, no manufacturer is going to spend money on this since if it reported issues it would dramatically raise their support costs.
> 
> So, in practice you have to evaluate the video quality against a reference standard. Not an easy task unless you have a reference standard to compare against.
> 
> ===
> 
> Getting sound and a picture is much different than getting the best possible audio and picture.
> 
> So, I have to disagree with you on the PC output cards. They are bad for both jitter and electrical noise in my experience. In my experience, they also tend to have other HDMI implementation issues. This is likely in part due to all the circuitry in the PC, rather than just the video output card itself, but I also think they may not be following best "microwave" practices for the HDMI output design. These issues are my observations, and others may disagree. Such performance may be acceptable in a gaming setup but I believe it is not acceptable, or at least not desirable, in a high-end theater environment where the goal is the absolute best in audio and video.
> 
> I talk to people on a daily basis about resolving issues in their home theaters. I can say that if there is a PC, or a PC derivative product, in the system that the issues are very often with that product. For comparison, consumer sources, such as UHD Bluray players, are almost never part of the issues being reported.
> 
> In most gaming systems the PC monitor is close and a 2 meter passive HDMI cable is used to send video to the monitor. From my experience this is a dramatically different environment than sending video over a long cable to a projector or TV.
> 
> Obviously PC's are used successfully in millions of systems. My point is all about attaining the absolute best in audio and video.



Do you think the issues with PC Card based hdmi would be significantly reduced if a fiber optic based HDMI cable was used instead ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

docrog said:


> My calibrator, Craig Rounds, set up for HDR BT2020 and chose the Radiance Pro output setting of "HDR BT2020 in an SDR BT2020 color space". There's a Radiance Pro option to send the HDR flag with this color space to the JVC, allowing you to choose either the pre-set JVC HDR or user created custom HDR as the default.



I am still confused why you need to do this. Why not just send HDR in an HDR 2020 color space ? 

I understand it has to do with the JVC projectors specifically... and you are trying to trigger a specific HDR unique installation mode ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FenceMan

blake said:


> I am still confused why you need to do this. Why not just send HDR in an HDR 2020 color space ?
> 
> I understand it has to do with the JVC projectors specifically... and you are trying to trigger a specific HDR unique installation mode ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


JVC projectors can be calibrated for SDR and HDR, then if you have Lumagen send the HDR flag it will trigger the JVC to seamlessly switch its HDR calibration while still utilizing the Lumagen for tone mapping.


----------



## loggeo

blake said:


> I am still confused why you need to do this. Why not just send HDR in an HDR 2020 color space ?
> 
> I understand it has to do with the JVC projectors specifically... and you are trying to trigger a specific HDR unique installation mode ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If I sent sdh from my lumagen to my jvc, the hdr memory is triggered on my JVC. I have chosen for my jvc hdr memory to have a power gamma of 2.4, dci filter on, high lamp, iris -4. This way my lumagen does the dynamic tone mapping and I get almost full dci coverage @100 nits.
If I sent sdr from my lumagen to my jvc, natural mode is triggered. No filter, low lamp, white point @48 nits.


----------



## Mike Garrett

FenceMan said:


> JVC projectors can be calibrated for SDR and HDR, then if you have Lumagen send the HDR flag it will trigger the JVC to seamlessly switch its HDR calibration while still utilizing the Lumagen for tone mapping.


Yep. Doing this makes the system simple to use. Want to watch an HDR movie, you just hit play. Want to watch a regular BD, once again you just hit play. No user mode selection required by the end user. Means anyone can operate your HT system. My HT system is actually simpler to use than my TV.


----------



## ysati

Can I download a 3D LUT SDR709 in CMS1 and
to use the HDR parameters of the JVC with Gamma 2.4?


----------



## loggeo

ysati said:


> Can I download a 3D LUT SDR709 in CMS1 and
> to use the HDR parameters of the JVC with Gamma 2.4?



I am not sure I understand the question. What exactly would you want to achieve? 

Apparently when calibrating for a 3d lut, your software will take into consideration your JVC settings.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

ysati said:


> Can I download a 3D LUT SDR709 in CMS1 and
> to use the HDR parameters of the JVC with Gamma 2.4?



If your 3DLUT that targeted REC709 was using the same Colourspace setting in the JVC as your SDR REC709 memory then you could set HDR preset to same with gamma at 2.4 and set CMS output to SDR REC709, HDR FLAG on and 2020>709 convert on.


----------



## Vinturbo

I would like an explanation of how it works and what exactly is the possibility of using P3 output with gamut conversion. does anyone know?


----------



## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> I would like an explanation of how it works and what exactly is the possibility of using P3 output with gamut conversion. does anyone know?


If you select the output Colorspace = SDRP3 in the Pro, the Pro can convert the data from either 709 or 2020 to P3 data.

The main reason at this time to use P3 is that you have Calman and want to do a 3D LUT for best performance with a projector/TV with a Gamut range of approximately P3. The reason is, at this time Calman, does not do well running a 2020 3D LUT calibration (Portrait Displays is working on this). 

Calman does seem to do a good job with P3 for projectors/TVs with a Gamut capability in the range of P3. So setting the output Colorspace = SDRP3 works well for this case. You would have the projector/TV in its widest Gamut mode and normally have to do this manually (JVCs can use the "HDR Flag" from the Pro to select the appropriate memory), or have the Pro output SDR2020 for both SDR and HDR content (with auto convert when appropriate) so you have the projector/TV in a single mode and do not need to manually change the projector/TV mode.

Note, if you are not going to run a P3 SDR 3D LUT calibration do not select SDRP3 as the output mode since most consumer projectors do not support native P3 color. In this case for HDR select the Pro output Colorspace = SDR2020.

Another thing to note is that if your projector has a Gamut greater than P3, you likely do not want to use the SDRP3 output mode since you would be limiting the resulting color Gamut to P3. Not an issue for most though.


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> Do you think the issues with PC Card based hdmi would be significantly reduced if a fiber optic based HDMI cable was used instead


If you have a 100% fiber (i.e. not a hybrid metal/fiber as almost all "fiber" cables are), then this does isolate the electrical noise from getting from the source to the destination device.

You still have the jitter issues though, including the effects of the electrical noise from the source HDMI device to the "metal to fiber" interface.

I actually like the idea of a 100% fiber HDMI connection. So far the ones I know about have issues, but I am sure these issues are being worked on. Just a matter of time I think. One big advantage of 100% fiber is electrical isolation in the event of a power surge. The surge will likely hit at slightly different times at the projector than at the source devices, which can make the surge worse. With metal in the cable the surge travel one way or another and can be different than the surge from the wall power local to the devices. This is borne out by the fact that when surges damage equipment the most susceptible in our experience is the output driving the long cable to the projector (the Radiance Pro), the long cable to the projector (if it is an active cable), and the input circuitry of the projector. With a 100% fiber cable you can still have surge damage but the 100% fiber eliminates the long connection to the projector exacerbating the surge.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> If you select the output Colorspace = SDRP3 in the Pro, the Pro can convert the data from either 709 or 2020 to P3 data.
> 
> The main reason at this time to use P3 is that you have Calman and want to do a 3D LUT for best performance with a projector/TV with a Gamut range of approximately P3. The reason is, at this time Calman, does not do well running a 2020 3D LUT calibration (Portrait Displays is working on this).
> 
> Calman does seem to do a good job with P3 for projectors/TVs with a Gamut capability in the range of P3. So setting the output Colorspace = SDRP3 works well for this case. You would have the projector/TV in its widest Gamut mode and normally have to do this manually (JVCs can use the "HDR Flag" from the Pro to select the appropriate memory), or have the Pro output SDR2020 for both SDR and HDR content (with auto convert when appropriate) so you have the projector/TV in a single mode and do not need to manually change the projector/TV mode.
> 
> Note, if you are not going to run a P3 SDR 3D LUT calibration do not select SDRP3 as the output mode since most consumer projectors do not support native P3 color. In this case for HDR select the Pro output Colorspace = SDR2020.
> 
> Another thing to note is that if your projector has a Gamut greater than P3, you likely do not want to use the SDRP3 output mode since you would be limiting the resulting color Gamut to P3. Not an issue for most though.



Thanks Jim for your answer. I still have a doubt. my vpr is JVC, I use Chromapure and Lightspace. almost all 4k films have DCI colors (therefore P3). The projector does not reach BT2020 and with difficulty reaches DCI. why should i use 2020? what do you recommend setting up? Doesn't it make sense to always use P3 output? Obviously the 3dlut calibration must be with P3 target. Am I wrong?


----------



## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> Thanks Jim for your answer. I still have a doubt. my vpr is JVC, I use Chromapure and Lightspace. almost all 4k films have DCI colors (therefore P3). The projector does not reach BT2020 and with difficulty reaches DCI. why should i use 2020? what do you recommend setting up? Doesn't it make sense to always use P3 output? Obviously the 3dlut calibration must be with P3 target. Am I wrong?


You say your projector "reaches P3" and so fits right in with my suggestion of selecting Colorspace = SDRP3, if you have a projector that has a roughly P3 Gamut range and you plan to do a 3D LUT.

So, as you suggest, for your system, selecting Colorspace = SDRP3 makes sense.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> You say your projector "reaches P3" and so fits right in with my suggestion of selecting Colorspace = SDRP3, if you have a projector that has a roughly P3 Gamut range and you plan to do a 3D LUT.
> 
> So, as you suggest, for your system, selecting Colorspace = SDRP3 makes sense.


OK Jim. Chromapure and Lightspace target gamma 2,4 and DCI space color. On Radiance PRO P3 output. i'll test it.
i know that The Matrix movie is native rec2020 and not DCI. On this situation, must i enable gamut convert Y? Is it correct? Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> Thanks Jim for your answer. I still have a doubt. my vpr is JVC, I use Chromapure and Lightspace. almost all 4k films have DCI colors (therefore P3). The projector does not reach BT2020 and with difficulty reaches DCI. why should i use 2020? what do you recommend setting up? Doesn't it make sense to always use P3 output? Obviously the 3dlut calibration must be with P3 target. Am I wrong?


THERE IS NOT A SINGLE HDR MOVIE WITH P3 colors. The movies are ALL IN 2020. Now, most movies don't use any more volume of the 2020 gamut than P3, because of the master, but they are STILL IN 2020. You can only use P3 from a Radiance if you know the projector in use has an actual P3 color mode (which the JVC does).


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> OK Jim. Chromapure and Lightspace target gamma 2,4 and DCI space color. On Radiance PRO P3 output. i'll test it.
> i know that The Matrix movie is native rec2020 and not DCI. On this situation, must i enable gamut convert Y? Is it correct? Thanks!


ALL MOVIES IN HDR ARE 2020. There are not exceptions. So you either output P3 from the Radiance and select DCi for the color profile in your JVC, or you output 2020 and select HDR or BT2020 in the JVC. You don't change it based on the movies.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

and just to add to what Kris says...You need to enable gamut convert 2020>709 when you use the DCI output


----------



## Vinturbo

Kris Deering said:


> ALL MOVIES IN HDR ARE 2020. There are not exceptions. So you either output P3 from the Radiance and select DCi for the color profile in your JVC, or you output 2020 and select HDR or BT2020 in the JVC. You don't change it based on the movies.



OK thanks to you too Kris for your explanations. I know well how the disks are structured. The point that is unclear for me is how to set up the radiance, having the alleged advantage of being able to use the P3 output. The JVC is set to have the most saturated colors possible without a physical filter (the filter removes too much brightness).
At this point I have to decide which signal to send for 4K and which 3dlut to make.

Excluding rec709 films from reasoning

option 1:

calibration 3dlut rec2020, gamma2.4 and radiance sdr2020 output

option 2:

calibration 3dlut DCI (P3), gamma2.4 and radiance P3 output

Which option is correct?

If option 2 is the best, what happens for real rec2020 films like Matrix?


----------



## blake

loggeo said:


> If I sent sdh from my lumagen to my jvc, the hdr memory is triggered on my JVC. I have chosen for my jvc hdr memory to have a power gamma of 2.4, dci filter on, high lamp, iris -4. This way my lumagen does the dynamic tone mapping and I get almost full dci coverage @100 nits.
> If I sent sdr from my lumagen to my jvc, natural mode is triggered. No filter, low lamp, white point @48 nits.



Why not watch HDR source content with true HDR flag instead of SDH? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ysati

Gordon Fraser said:


> If your 3DLUT that targeted REC709 was using the same Colourspace setting in the JVC as your SDR REC709 memory then you could set HDR preset to same with gamma at 2.4 and set CMS output to SDR REC709, HDR FLAG on and 2020>709 convert on.


I think I'm dummies.
I calibrated the JVC HDR with the JVC software and the i1Pro2 probe.
I calibrated the SDR Rec709 perfectly with LightSpace, LUT 3D.
I loaded the CMS1 memory of the Radiance with this LUT.
I tried all the possibilities of setting up the Radiance, JVC and LightSpace and for HDR there is nothing good.
The best solution I think is to leave the CMS1 Nul Cube and manually calibrate the white balance.
Besides whatever the settings, the Rgb Balance and the Gamut are always pretty good ...
However, Gamma and Delta E are off target.
I'm frustrated that some have perfect Gamma curves and Delta E?


----------



## MDesigns

blake said:


> Why not watch HDR source content with true HDR flag instead of SDH?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because you want the Radiance Pro to do the tonemapping to your displays real brightness. Tonemapped image is best delivered in straight 2.4 ("SDR") gamma.

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> OK thanks to you too Kris for your explanations. I know well how the disks are structured. The point that is unclear for me is how to set up the radiance, having the alleged advantage of being able to use the P3 output. The JVC is set to have the most saturated colors possible without a physical filter (the filter removes too much brightness).
> At this point I have to decide which signal to send for 4K and which 3dlut to make.
> 
> Excluding rec709 films from reasoning
> 
> option 1:
> 
> calibration 3dlut rec2020, gamma2.4 and radiance sdr2020 output
> 
> option 2:
> 
> calibration 3dlut DCI (P3), gamma2.4 and radiance P3 output
> 
> Which option is correct?
> 
> If option 2 is the best, what happens for real rec2020 films like Matrix?


If the JVC is setup to have the most saturation possible WITHOUT a filter, did you use a custom color profile or are you using the HDR color profile? If you used HDR (highest saturation without filter by default), you should use SDR2020 output. P3 should only be used if you are using a P3 based color profile (either something custom or the DCI profile).


----------



## thrang

My opinion after being in this hobby for some time (and as a Radiance owner)

You are fooling yourself if you think you will get a great calibration on your own without really becoming learned in the science of it all. I tried early on, and determined it wasn't worth it. A thread like this is not really a place to learn the intricacies of calibration. There are ISF courses to do that I think, among other resources.

Additionally, to do this well, you need HW that can easily cost several thousand dollars... $350 probes generally aren't going to give you the best results.

There are many variables and quirks with various display devices and intermediary devices as well, which contributes to the complexity of the process.

For this and many other reasons, I think this is a space where relying on a professional calibrator is the wisest decision. Or, you need to commit to formal education in the topic before looking for answers to questions that don't even make sense.


----------



## DannyBoy73

thrang said:


> My opinion after being in this hobby for some time (and as a Radiance owner)
> 
> You are fooling yourself if you think you will get a great calibration on your own without really becoming learned in the science of it all. I tried early on, and determined it wasn't worth it. A thread like this is not really a place to learn the intricacies of calibration. There are ISF courses to do that I think, among other resources.
> 
> Additionally, to do this well, you need HW that can easily cost several thousand dollars... $350 probes generally aren't going to give you the best results.
> 
> There are many variables and quirks with various display devices and intermediary devices as well, which contributes to the complexity of the process.
> 
> For this and many other reasons, I think this is a space where relying on a professional calibrator is the wisest decision. Or, you need to commit to formal education in the topic before looking for answers to questions that don't even make sense.


100% agree. We've spent all this hard-earned money on nice projectors and a Lumagen, crazy not to get it professional calibrated. Over here in the UK, you generally get a professional calibration thrown in when you buy a Lumagen.


----------



## Vinturbo

Kris, you are kind to answer me, I am grateful to you. What do you recommend (2020 output), is it valid while doing a DCI 3dlut with Lightspace or Chromapure?
When I make a 3dlut rec2020 and set 2020 output in the radiance I get a very different result compared to 3dlut DCI with P3 output. Do you know which is the correct one?
this is what I don't understand well. 
I thought of doing so for JVC because DCI is easier to obtain and the films are DCI. (inside the rec2020 container). I don't understand the cause that requires us to use rec2020, when the display is in difficulty and the 4k material is almost never rec2020.
I have had no problem doing calibrations for many years and I have many software and hardware tools to do it, I know all the technicalities. I just need to understand what is the right configuration for Radiance connected to JVC.


----------



## ysati

Although the majority of the members of this site are not professionals calibrators,
there are still means available to everyone to reasonably calibrate their television or projector.
Besides, I think that most of us get along easily with SDR.
*The problem is HDR. *
No television set and even less a video projector, is capable of reproducing the space "2020", see "P3" and even less the luminance of 10000 Nits.
At most, some televisions may reach 2000 Nits ...
Some 100 Nits video projectors, depending on the size of the image and 400/500 Nits with multiplier DTM.
So for HDR even a professional with adequate equipment, will not guarantee a perfect calibration.
Unfortunately, it's all about compromise.
According to the sayings of some magicians, I worked hard to want to perform HDR calibration as well as SDR.
Now I know it's impossible.
After calibrating my JVC with its software and correcting the contrast and brightness to the disc of Spears & Munsil and those of the Radiance,
I am satisfied with the quality of the images with the DTM of the Radiance.
To have more, you may have to wait for the laser instead of the lamp?
Sorry for my English, google translator.


----------



## Vinturbo

thrang said:


> My opinion after being in this hobby for some time (and as a Radiance owner)
> 
> You are fooling yourself if you think you will get a great calibration on your own without really becoming learned in the science of it all. I tried early on, and determined it wasn't worth it. A thread like this is not really a place to learn the intricacies of calibration. There are ISF courses to do that I think, among other resources.
> 
> Additionally, to do this well, you need HW that can easily cost several thousand dollars... $350 probes generally aren't going to give you the best results.
> 
> There are many variables and quirks with various display devices and intermediary devices as well, which contributes to the complexity of the process.
> 
> For this and many other reasons, I think this is a space where relying on a professional calibrator is the wisest decision. Or, you need to commit to formal education in the topic before looking for answers to questions that don't even make sense.



I did not understand the nature of your comment. Does it seem to you that my question doesn't make sense? Maybe, it doesn't make sense for your opinion. Faced with an extremely technical question, you should understand that if a user asks for a very technical and specific clarification, it could be a professional calibrator.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Vinturbo said:


> Kris, you are kind to answer me, I am grateful to you. What do you recommend (2020 output), is it valid while doing a DCI 3dlut with Lightspace or Chromapure?
> When I make a 3dlut rec2020 and set 2020 output in the radiance I get a very different result compared to 3dlut DCI with P3 output. Do you know which is the correct one?
> this is what I don't understand well.
> I thought of doing so for JVC because DCI is easier to obtain and the films are DCI. (inside the rec2020 container). I don't understand the cause that requires us to use rec2020, when the display is in difficulty and the 4k material is almost never rec2020.
> I have had no problem doing calibrations for many years and I have many software and hardware tools to do it, I know all the technicalities. I just need to understand what is the right configuration for Radiance connected to JVC.


The films are BT2020, they are not DCI. So you want to calibrate BT2020 and use HDR with BT2020 color space.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Vinturbo said:


> I did not understand the nature of your comment. Does it seem to you that my question doesn't make sense? Maybe, it doesn't make sense for your opinion. Faced with an extremely technical question, you should understand that if a user asks for a very technical and specific clarification, it could be a professional calibrator.


Keep in mind professional calibrators make a living calibrating displays. If you want them to instruct you on how to do this for yourself, you might want to contact one and pay them a consulting fee for instruction.


----------



## audioguy

mike garrett said:


> keep in mind professional calibrators make a living calibrating displays. *if you want them to instruct you on how to do this for yourself, you might want to contact one and pay them a consulting fee for instruction*.



*amen !!!! **amen !!!! & **amen !!!!*


----------



## Kris Deering

Vinturbo said:


> Kris, you are kind to answer me, I am grateful to you. What do you recommend (2020 output), is it valid while doing a DCI 3dlut with Lightspace or Chromapure?
> When I make a 3dlut rec2020 and set 2020 output in the radiance I get a very different result compared to 3dlut DCI with P3 output. Do you know which is the correct one?
> this is what I don't understand well.
> I thought of doing so for JVC because DCI is easier to obtain and the films are DCI. (inside the rec2020 container). I don't understand the cause that requires us to use rec2020, when the display is in difficulty and the 4k material is almost never rec2020.
> I have had no problem doing calibrations for many years and I have many software and hardware tools to do it, I know all the technicalities. I just need to understand what is the right configuration for Radiance connected to JVC.


If you are going to use the HDR color profile in the JVC, do your calibration to 2020 with LS using the decactinated LUT (I find that a LUT is not needed with the JVCs if the pre-calibration is done properly and grayscale/white point are correct, just some minor tweaks to the PJ's CMS is typically all that is needed in my experience). If you are going to output P3 from the Radiance, you need to use the DCI color profile, otherwise your color tracking will be off.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mike Garrett said:


> Keep in mind professional calibrators make a living calibrating displays. If you want them to instruct you on how to do this for yourself, you might want to contact one and pay them a consulting fee for instruction.


I've done this type of service for a couple clients, but it is difficult depending on their level of knowledge. It takes a long time too. I typically get better results with the "you ship me your projector and I do the calibration from here" method that I've done a few times recently. This works REALLY well and can even include the Lumagen in the mix. The last one I did was a RS3000 with a DCR lens and a Lumagen. Results were fantastic.


----------



## Mark_H

thrang said:


> You are fooling yourself if you think you will get a great calibration on your own without really becoming learned in the science of it all.


Doesn't mean it's not possible, and shouldn't put people off trying. One of the most satisfying journeys I've been on in this hobby over the decades is learning all the calibration/image science stuff myself. 



> Additionally, to do this well, you need HW that can easily cost several thousand dollars... $350 probes generally aren't going to give you the best results.


This is perhaps the real barrier to great calibration...


----------



## Mike Garrett

Mark_H said:


> Doesn't mean it's not possible, and shouldn't put people off trying. One of the most satisfying journeys I've been on in this hobby over the decades is learning all the calibration/image science stuff myself.
> 
> 
> 
> This is perhaps the real barrier to great calibration...


And yet pretty much everyone that I know that does their own calibration and then finally decided to bring in a good calibrator, have talked about the improvement.


----------



## Mark_H

Mike Garrett said:


> And yet pretty much everyone that I know that does their own calibration and then finally decided to bring in a good calibrator, have talked about the improvement.


I don't doubt it - never said it was easy.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Mark_H said:


> I don't doubt it - never said it was easy.


And as usual, clicked on your room link, even though I have viewed it several times before. great room and setup.


----------



## audioguy

Mark_H said:


> I don't doubt it - never said it was easy.


Posted this question on BluRay.com but where did you find acoustically transparent black velvet.

Your room wins the Function over Form award but (at least to my eyes) is spectacular looking. *LOVE IT A LOT!!*


----------



## Gordon Fraser

audioguy said:


> Posted this question on BluRay.com but where did you find acoustically transparent black velvet.
> 
> Your room wins the Function over Form award but (at least to my eyes) is spectacular looking. *LOVE IT A LOT!!*



i was lucky to be involved with Mark in that project. The pics are great but you have to be in it to experience just how magnificent it is. I get to see many many rooms in my line of work. Mark's is epic and is the standard by which i judge all others.


----------



## Mark_H

audioguy said:


> Posted this question on BluRay.com but where did you find acoustically transparent black velvet.
> 
> Your room wins the Function over Form award but (at least to my eyes) is spectacular looking. *LOVE IT A LOT!!*


I honestly can't remember - room was built in 2006 and my memory only goes back as far a last week, if I'm lucky.


----------



## Mark_H

Gordon Fraser said:


> i was lucky to be involved with Mark in that project. The pics are great but you have to be in it to experience just how magnificent it is. I get to see many many rooms in my line of work. Mark's is epic and is the standard by which i judge all others.


Thanks, G. Couldn't have done it without you!


----------



## audioguy

Mark_H said:


> my memory only goes back as far a last week, if I'm lucky.



I have that "syndrome" !!


----------



## A7mad78

Mark_H said:


> Thanks, G. Couldn't have done it without you!



Love to see the pic couldn’t find the link ..plz 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

A7mad78 said:


> Love to see the pic couldn’t find the link ..plz


Click on "The Cave!" in Mark's signature.


----------



## Sandel

*HDMI cable review*

Hi,

as probably all of you know, the HDMI cable that connects the projector with the rest of the gear (in most cases it's comming from the Lumagen or the receiver/processor) is to be chosen wisely.
Here is a review of one of those cables that might be of interest for you:

http://www.secret-lab.xyz/2019/10/08/cinemike-fibre-hdmi-cable/


I bought this cable too and can confirm the reviewer's findings a 100%.


----------



## loggeo

Seriously? A 3000 euro hdmi cable?


----------



## Willie

Mark_H said:


> I honestly can't remember - room was built in 2006 and my memory only goes back as far a last week, if I'm lucky.


I’m guessing most guys who have been frequenting this forum for ~20 years are much the same.


----------



## Craig Peer

loggeo said:


> Seriously? A 3000 euro hdmi cable?


I'm as likely to buy that as a $10K bottle of wine.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> I'm as likely to buy that as a $10K bottle of wine.


I've wondered for a long time what it would take for me to finally open my remaining bottle of 1986 Chateaux Margaux. Now I know: COVID-19.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> I've wondered for a long time what it would take for me to finally open my remaining bottle of 1986 Chateaux Margaux. Now I know: COVID-19.


Might as well celebrate being alive. Throw a good movie on too. But that's only a $1K bottle - tempting ( I saw some online )!


----------



## docrog

craig peer said:


> might as well celebrate being alive.


*exactly!*


----------



## fatherom

Sandel said:


> Hi,
> 
> as probably all of you know, the HDMI cable that connects the projector with the rest of the gear (in most cases it's comming from the Lumagen or the receiver/processor) is to be chosen wisely.
> Here is a review of one of those cables that might be of interest for you:
> 
> http://www.secret-lab.xyz/2019/10/08/cinemike-fibre-hdmi-cable/
> 
> 
> I bought this cable too and can confirm the reviewer's findings a 100%.



While I can understand that a bad hdmi cable could introduce errors, I don't understand how one hdmi cable vs another could affect "separation" as the author states. Sounds like placebo effect to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

Sandel said:


> Hi,
> 
> as probably all of you know, the HDMI cable that connects the projector with the rest of the gear (in most cases it's coming from the Lumagen or the receiver/processor) is to be chosen wisely. Here is a review of one of those cables that might be of interest for you:
> 
> http://www.secret-lab.xyz/2019/10/08/cinemike-fibre-hdmi-cable/
> 
> 
> I bought this cable too and can confirm the reviewer's findings a 100%.


Sandel:

Thanks for the Post on the CineMike HDMI fiber cable.

First in the interest of full-disclosure: CineMike is a Lumagen dealer and in fact hot-rods the Radiance Pro 4446 to reduce electrical noise and output jitter below the already excellent levels.

I would like to focus not on the cable itself (which appears to be exceptional from the measurements), but on the review and what it points out about jitter and noise. It is right on in these regards and it discusses exactly the points I made in my post on the same topic. To achieve the best in audio and video you need a source that has low jitter and low noise, but also an excellent cable that does not add to the jitter and noise of the source device.

It is nice to see that others understand how important low jitter and low noise are in an exceptional home theater. This seconds my contention that there is a difference between getting a picture using a high-jitter source, and having the best possible image and sound by choosing products, such as the Radiance Pro, with both low jitter and low noise.


----------



## SJHT

Peter (Cineramax) used to tell us that he felt Stratos produced better movie audio than any disc based player because of lower jitter. Never fully understood but thanks for the continuing education on jitter! SJ


----------



## woofer

Sandel said:


> Hi,
> 
> as probably all of you know, the HDMI cable that connects the projector with the rest of the gear (in most cases it's comming from the Lumagen or the receiver/processor) is to be chosen wisely.
> Here is a review of one of those cables that might be of interest for you:
> 
> http://www.secret-lab.xyz/2019/10/08/cinemike-fibre-hdmi-cable/
> 
> 
> I bought this cable too and can confirm the reviewer's findings a 100%.


Where are these available from...Thanks..


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Peter (Cineramax) used to tell us that he felt Stratos produced better movie audio than any disc based player because of lower jitter. Never fully understood but thanks for the continuing education on jitter! SJ


Did he have some kind of measurements of the output jitter? I've seen claims from people that something has low jitter, but rarely do you see any objective measurements that confirm it. I know that Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity used to do jitter measurements on digital sources, but I haven't seen them in a long time.


----------



## Sandel

woofer said:


> Where are these available from...Thanks..


You can get the cable via their website:
www.cinemike.de


----------



## Sandel

loggeo said:


> Seriously? A 3000 euro hdmi cable?


Yes. And it‘s worth every penny if you have a decent home cinema.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Craig Peer said:


> I'm as likely to buy that as a $10K bottle of wine.


No. the 10k bottle of wine has a shot, if only 0.1%. The $3,325 (US) cable has no shot at all.


----------



## loggeo

Craig Peer said:


> I'm as likely to buy that as a $10K bottle of wine.





Mike Garrett said:


> No. the 10k bottle of wine has a shot, if only 0.1%. The $3,325 (US) cable has no shot at all.



To make things better, I don't thing it would be one cable though.
Ideally you would need a couple. Source-->Lumagen-->Projector. 3,325 US is the starting price per cable. 

...and since you would be going to all this trouble, it would be ideal to have your Oppo, Lumagen Pro, JVC modded!
You do want to have a decent home cinema, don't you?


----------



## Craig Peer

loggeo said:


> To make things better, I don't thing it would be one cable though.
> Ideally you would need a couple. Source-->Lumagen-->Projector. 3,325 US is the starting price per cable.
> 
> ...and since you would be going to all this trouble, it would be ideal to have your Oppo, Lumagen Pro, JVC modded!
> You do want to have a decent home cinema, don't you?



If I drink enough wine I won’t be able to see the difference!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Did he have some kind of measurements of the output jitter? I've seen claims from people that something has low jitter, but rarely do you see any objective measurements that confirm it. I know that Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity used to do jitter measurements on digital sources, but I haven't seen them in a long time.


Never saw it. Just a comment that maybe there is something to jitter as it relates to audio quality. SJ


----------



## darksets

Sandel said:


> Yes. And it‘s worth every penny if you have a decent home cinema.



This is insanity. Lumagen and the entire industry might as well declare they don't have a way of delivering 4k. I can't believe what I'm reading here. I'm using a Radiance Pro but I'm inclined to ditch it on general principles if they don't disavow this nonsense.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> Did he have some kind of measurements of the output jitter? I've seen claims from people that something has low jitter, but rarely do you see any objective measurements that confirm it. I know that Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity used to do jitter measurements on digital sources, but I haven't seen them in a long time.


In that market, measurements are not common....


----------



## Sandel

darksets said:


> This is insanity. [...] I can't believe what I'm reading here. I'm using a Radiance Pro but I'm inclined to ditch it on general principles if they don't disavow this nonsense.


Well, that‘s an interesting reaction to a thing you don‘t seem to fully understand.
Have you read the review at all? Did you understand how important a really low jitter value is? Jim explained it in some earlier post in a very comprehensive way, maybe you should read that again.


----------



## woofer

Sandel said:


> You can get the cable via their website:
> www.cinemike.de


Thankyou.


----------



## Sandel

Craig Peer said:


> I'm as likely to buy that as a $10K bottle of wine.


That's what I'd thought in the first place, too. And then I got convinced to test it - what I did. And "unfortunately" it was more than just a little bit of improvement, it was a night and day difference.
So, yes, I've bought it.
There's a simple way to test if his cable would improve the sound of your cinema or not. Just play some wellknown concert bluray for a while with the projector connected and running but with the picture muted to not get distracted by the video. And then you unplug every (!) connection to the projector so it can't interfere electrically with the rest of your devices. Wait a couple of minutes and then play the same disc again and listen.
If you find a significant difference (that's what happened here) you might think twice...
If not, you can spare 3K Euro.


----------



## Sandel

loggeo said:


> To make things better, I don't thing it would be one cable though.
> Ideally you would need a couple. Source-->Lumagen-->Projector. 3,325 US is the starting price per cable.



Nope. It's just ONE cable. The one to the projector. No need for an additional one. And the price is not a starting price, it's fixed. If you really need longer running cables (more than 100m or so) you can simply replace the middle part of the cable with a longer one.


----------



## Die Zwei

Perhaps we can move this kind of adverstising to a different forum area?
These kind of discussions lead to nowhere.


----------



## Sandel

hockyAVS said:


> Perhaps we can move this kind of adverstising to a different forum area?
> These kind of discussions lead to nowhere.



We're talking about the importance of jitter reduction. Jim brought that topic up and I simply added to that.


----------



## Die Zwei

Sandel said:


> We're talking about the importance of jitter reduction. Jim brought that topic up and I simply added to that.


The jitter topic has already been explained by Jim on a technical level.
You´re simply trying to market a product using this topic. Since you´re doing business with Cinemike i´d say you´re a testimonial.


----------



## Sandel

hockyAVS said:


> The jitter topic has already been explained by Jim on a technical level.
> You´re simply trying to market a product using this topic. Since you´re doing business with Cinemike i´d say you´re a testimonial.


Yes, as being a customer of Cinemike‘s I‘m somewhat biased, that‘s true.
But I wasn‘t posting MY review but a review from a techsavvy person who did a thorough testing on something so „unimportant“ as a HDMI cable with interesting results... And as a lot of forum members here seem at least interested in products that they haven‘t been aware of yet, I thought I share my knowledge.
I hope we can agree on that.


----------



## Die Zwei

Sandel said:


> Yes, as being a customer of Cinemike‘s I‘m somewhat biased, that‘s true.
> But I wasn‘t posting MY review but a review from a techsavvy person who did a thorough testing on something so „unimportant“ as a HDMI cable with interesting results... And as a lot of forum members here seem at least interested in products that they haven‘t been aware of yet, I thought I share my knowledge.
> I hope we can agree on that.


Apart from the fact that you´re a bit more than just a customer we can agree, yes.


----------



## Sandel

hockyAVS said:


> Apart from the fact that you´re a bit more than just a customer we can agree, yes.


😊
I‘m not and never was on their payroll but I‘m definitely guilty of advocacy. 🍻


----------



## audioguy

I guess I am not completely surprised that this subject has been brought up in this forum. I was into high end 2 channel for a very long time (and in the business) and the subject of great (read expensive) power cords, interconnects and speaker wire was always a topic of controversy, as were the various tweaks that were sold (e.g. The Tice Clock) 

(1) Emperor Double Crown Speaker Cable (Pair) $50,000

(2) Synergistic RX Power Cord $10,000

(3) Nordost White Light Interconnects: $33,000

I'm not prepared to say there is NO difference in any of these cables nor the HDMI cable under discussion. I am prepared to say that in virtually every instance when any of these types of products is compared to MUCH lesser expensive products, and those comparisons are performed blind and level matched, those (potential) difference all seem to disappear. 

I have a friend and he and I use to conduct blind tests with one another on many of the high end mega expensive audio products (cords, tweaks, etc). And in the VERY few cases we THOUGHT we heard any differences (but NEVER consistently) , it was so much work to actually hear those differences (we use to say we had to "squint" real hard to hear them), that it simply was not worth the effort (or the money) when other much easier to hear (or see) differences could be found by purchasing other stuff (e.g. better room treatment; better phono cartridges; upgraded speakers).

If I were in the mood to spend $6,000 to improve the audio and/or video experience in my room, this product would not be on the list.

For some reason, the name P.T. Barnum keeps running around in my head @!!


----------



## hamster71

Interesting discussion, for me the two key elements are the cleanest possible power supply and the lowest possible jitter. The power supply to the HC system is also important.

To power my Lumagen pro I use a linear power supply with very low noise. In addition my Oppo 203 is modified on the Food and clocks section ...

Regarding HDMI cables, I went from standard HDG cables to optical cables that I find superior and this for a fraction of the price of wired cables.

Personally I would not put 3000 dollars for Hdmi cables or other, simply because my means do not allow it. But if I had the means...


----------



## loggeo

hamster71 said:


> Interesting discussion, for me the two key elements are the cleanest possible power supply and the lowest possible jitter. The power supply to the HC system is also important.
> 
> To power my Lumagen pro I use a linear power supply with very low noise. In addition my Oppo 203 is modified on the Food and clocks section ...
> 
> Regarding HDMI cables, I went from standard HDG cables to optical cables that I find superior and this for a fraction of the price of wired cables.
> 
> Personally I would not put 3000 dollars for Hdmi cables or other, simply because my means do not allow it. But if I had the means...



I do that too and can relate to what you are saying. I use a keces p8 to power my lumagen pro. I decided to go this way when the original power supply went dead.
Regarding hdmi cables: I 've chosen the hdmi cable (ruipro) that would give me the best chances to have the least possible problems with my Lumagen.


----------



## darksets

Sandel said:


> Well, that‘s an interesting reaction to a thing you don‘t seem to fully understand.
> Have you read the review at all? Did you understand how important a really low jitter value is? Jim explained it in some earlier post in a very comprehensive way, maybe you should read that again.


I read it and it's not the first time I hear about jitter. Various ridiculously expensive products have been sold before to combat the menace of jitter. Regardless, something is wrong when you sell an AV component and you tell your customers they need cables costing as much as your product to connect it to the other components.


----------



## Sandel

darksets said:


> [...] something is wrong when you sell an AV component and you tell your customers they need cables costing as much as your product to connect it to the other components.


Well, the price you‘re willing to spend for a certain improvement in your home cinema is always highly individual.
See, when I purchased my JVC RS4500, there were tons of projectors out there on the market with, let‘s say, 80% of the PQ of this beast, for a tiny fraction of the cost.
Was the delta worth spending that extra money? To me, yes. To others, definitely no. Same with this cable. For me it was worth it, and I would definitely buy another if it would boost the sound quality like the first one did.
Unfortunately, a second cable isn’t doing any good, as thorough tests showed.


----------



## hamster71

One can also find optical Hdmi cables of very good qualities without the need to put fortunes. I now use Moshou optical Hdmi cables.

With these cables I never had problems of synchronization with the Lumagen and my sources or diffusers.

For 10 times cheaper, I have better image and sound quality compared to my old HDG Wired Hdmi cables from a known and reputed brand ...

After I do not doubt that the cables Hdmi cinemike brings even more, but the ratio Q / P is clearly against it.

It would also be foolish to put an hdmi cable or whatever, onto an AV component or entry level projector that is anyway unable to make a profit


----------



## Dominic Chan

Sandel said:


> Unfortunately, a second cable isn’t doing any good, as thorough tests showed.


I would be very interested in seeing the results of the thorough tests of the first cable.


----------



## Sandel

Dominic Chan said:


> I would be very interested in seeing the results of the thorough tests of the first cable.


A good starting point would be to read the review I‘ve posted. This gives you a good idea about what’s happening technically.
And hearing-wise, I‘d say your milage may vary, as it always depends on your individual set up, what harm DC does to your devices running from the projector through your copper based HDMI cable back to the processor.

A couple of posts earlier I indicated what you could do to find out easily if the cable was helpful for your individual setup.
If you happen to get your hands on such a cable, I‘d try it myself, jf I were you.
At least that’s what I did.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Sandel said:


> That's what I'd thought in the first place, too. And then I got convinced to test it - what I did. And "unfortunately" it was more than just a little bit of improvement, it was a night and day difference.
> So, yes, I've bought it.
> *There's a simple way to test if his cable would improve the sound of your cinema or not. Just play some wellknown concert bluray for a while with the projector connected and running but with the picture muted to not get distracted by the video. And then you unplug every (!) connection to the projector so it can't interfere electrically with the rest of your devices. Wait a couple of minutes and then play the same disc again and listen.*
> If you find a significant difference (that's what happened here) you might think twice...
> If not, you can spare 3K Euro.


There may be a difference, but waiting two minutes and listening is not going to work. Your audio memory is not good enough for that. You would need instantaneous switching. Even then it is tough and would require multiple listenings, switching back and forth and if you preform this test blind, you yourself will be shocked by the results.


----------



## Sandel

Mike Garrett said:


> There may be a difference, but waiting two minutes and listening is not going to work. Your audio memory is not good enough for that. You would need instantaneous switching. Even then it is tough and would require multiple listenings, switching back and forth.


Well, speak for yourself. My audio memory is definitely good enough.

But a bit of training is needed. You need to be able to listen to things very closely, like "the snaredrum I'm hearing, is it flat and one dimensional-sounding, or is there a texture to it?" "What is the volume of the guitar I'm hearing? Can I hear the guitar's corpus resonating, or just a more indifferent sound?" and so on.
This takes a lot of practise, but is repeatable even with some time between the sessions.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Sandel said:


> Well, speak for yourself. My audio memory is definitely good enough.


Boy I am so tempted to put a very large bet on this with blind testing. But with all that is going on in the world right now, there is no way to do it. By the way, how old are you?


----------



## fatherom

Sandel said:


> Well, speak for yourself. My audio memory is definitely good enough.



Without a true double blind test, you're experiencing placebo effect. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sandel

Mike Garrett said:


> Boy I am so tempted to put a very large bet on this with blind testing. But with all that is going on in the world right now, there is no way to do it. By the way, how old are you?


I've been working three decades plus in the AV industry, producing high quality AV content for very demanding customers.
This bet definitely would be lost my friend. I'm earning my money on this.
:grin:


----------



## Killroy

fatherom said:


> Without a true double blind test, you're experiencing placebo effect.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, every single AV true double blind test I have seen always produces the same result...no one can tell the difference. Then 10-minutes later every single person starts to argue that the test is meaningless.


----------



## audioguy

fatherom said:


> Without a true double blind test, you're experiencing placebo effect.



I would suggest expectation bias is the culprit!


----------



## fatherom

I asked this question earlier but no one responded. 

I'm willing to concede that a crappy hdmi cable could introduce jitter and affect sound quality. What i don't understand is in what tangible way does it affect sound quality?

Surely random errors would affect the sound quality in a myriad of subtle (and ever fluctuating) ways. 

But I can't see how errors would cause the volume of a snare drum (buried in a mix) to change or the "separation" of instruments to change. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlinsley

I'd like to see the projector and processor models named and shamed, as if a 70k Euros projector can be affected this much by a cable (6% more saturation compared to what is presumably a decent cable) then I'm not impressed with their engineering.

I'm now off to put some shakti stones on either end of my RuiPro.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Sandel said:


> I've been working three decades plus in the AV industry, producing high quality AV content for very demanding customers.
> This bet definitely would be lost my friend. I'm earning my money on this.
> :grin:


You did not answer one of my questions. I asked how old are you? Also in your listening tests, were they done in stereo, multichannel or mono?


----------



## sjschaff

I certainly hope other manufacturers will take note of the problem of noise in HDMI. I know that at least Shunyata Research has worked on this problem for power cords and USB. As far as I know, they've not ventured into HDMI. 



I've had success using their noise reducing power cords in both my audio and video system with success. Recently began using their Venom V14 Digital power cord with a JVC RS3000 and it improved the visual image. I suspect that it also is protecting the rest of the AC devices from the JVC's power supply back flush into the wall, which can certainly affect both the Lumagen and all my sources, as well as an Anthem D2V audio pre-processor.


----------



## Sandel

fatherom said:


> I asked this question earlier but no one responded.
> 
> I'm willing to concede that a crappy hdmi cable could introduce jitter and affect sound quality. What i don't understand is in what tangible way does it affect sound quality?
> 
> Surely random errors would affect the sound quality in a myriad of subtle (and ever fluctuating) ways.
> 
> But I can't see how errors would cause the volume of a snare drum (buried in a mix) to change or the "separation" of instruments to change.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see..
The point is that even high class projectors only feature pretty mediocre power units. With a grounded HDMI cable connected, those "bad currents" on a DC level (being produced by those power units) run back the HDMI cable to your sound processor and degrade the sound. That's it in a nutshell.


The snare-drum example was just to explain what you *could* listen to if you compare cables. But this is a different story, don't mix them up.


----------



## Sandel

Mike Garrett said:


> You did not answer one of my questions. I asked how old are you? Also in your listening tests, were they done in stereo, multichannel or mono?


I don't see where talking about my age would help in this discussion.
But the listening tests were done with stereo and with multichannel sources.


----------



## fatherom

Sandel said:


> I see..
> The point is that even high class projectors only feature pretty mediocre power units. With a grounded HDMI cable connected, those "bad currents" on a DC level (being produced by those power units) run back the HDMI cable to your sound processor and degrade the sound. That's it in a nutshell.
> 
> 
> The snare-drum example was just to explain what you *could* listen to if you compare cables. But this is a different story, don't mix them up.



That doesn't really answer my specific question. The original review you posted said that the expensive hdmi cable created a better "separation" in the sound. I don't see how a cable could affect that specifically. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandel

fatherom said:


> That doesn't really answer my specific question. The original review you posted said that the expensive hdmi cable created a better "separation" in the sound. I don't see how a cable could affect that specifically.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Isn‘t that obvious?
If you have high levels of ground noise on a cable, smaller signals simply get burried in this noise. This translates to bad separation of instruments and such. So you have to get rid of this noise.
A first step is to use a fibre cable as this blocks noise from travelling. The problem with standard fibre cables is, that they need a power source on both ends of the cable to translate current into light impulses. Thus, with those cables you get noise from a different source but with the same degradation of sound quality.
Hope this made things a little clearer.


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## docrog

It seems to me that perhaps the easiest way to initiate A/B comparison and avoid bias would be to start by assessing monophonic source material with one top of the line ear bud in each ear, but with different HDMI cabling configuration (identical high bit rate audio source material and same processing). Subsequent sampling could be performed, without the listener knowing whether they are listening to the same set-up or reversed. By rapidly switching between both ears you would reduce the issue of latency; assessment with simultaneous/binaural listening would probably prove to be scientifically/statistically unsound. If both ears sense identically then cabling would be highly suggestive of no additive value. Obviously, this would require that both ears are identical in terms of audiology testing curves (almost unheard of after the age of 40).


----------



## fatherom

Sandel said:


> Isn‘t that obvious?
> If you have high levels of ground noise on a cable, smaller signals simply get burried in this noise. This translates to bad separation of instruments and such. So you have to get rid of this noise.
> A first step is to use a fibre cable as this blocks noise from travelling. The problem with standard fibre cables is, that they need a power source on both ends of the cable to translate current into light impulses. Thus, with those cables you get noise from a different source but with the same degradation of sound quality.
> Hope this made things a little clearer.



Well I guess where I’m not following is that this is a digital signal. The original conversation was about jitter. If a digital signal is experiencing errors, I would expect all manner of random audio artifacts. Not sure why you’re implying that a digital signal that has errors would result in an increased noise floor in the resultant decoded audio. Wouldn’t HDMI errors manifest as all kinds of audio degradation in various different forms?

Human listening experiments won’t tell us anything. I would want to see scientific measurements (waveform analysis) to understand the true nature of how HDMI signal errors actually are affecting the sound. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mike Garrett

Sandel said:


> I don't see where talking about my age would help in this discussion.
> But the listening tests were done with stereo and with multichannel sources.


Age plays a huge impact on our hearing ability. Also if doing a listening test and trying to hear the subtle differences, you need to listen in mono. Listening in stereo, makes it very hard to hear any difference, even if there is a difference in sound quality and multichannel is even worse.


----------



## MDesigns

Sandel said:


> Isn‘t that obvious?
> 
> If you have high levels of ground noise on a cable, smaller signals simply get burried in this noise. This translates to bad separation of instruments and such. So you have to get rid of this noise..


HDMI is digital. There are no "smaller signals".

Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## docrog

Mike Garrett said:


> Age plays a huge impact on our hearing ability. Also if doing a listening test and trying to hear the subtle differences, you need to listen in mono. Listening in stereo, makes it very hard to hear any difference, even if there is a difference in sound quality and multichannel is even worse.


Agree. Please note my earlier post (above).


----------



## Kris Deering

MDesigns said:


> HDMI is digital. There are no "smaller signals".
> 
> Lähetetty minun MRD-LX1 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


He isn't talking about the digital signal in the HDMI cable. He is talking about the noise from the projector's power supply passing down the analog HDMI cable and compromising the electronics on the other end.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> He isn't talking about the digital signal in the HDMI cable. He is talking about the noise from the projector's power supply passing down the analog HDMI cable and compromising the electronics on the other end.


I thought he WAS talking about the audio signal "inside" the cable. I had asked how a HDMI cable can affect separation of instruments in the ultimate sound that one hears...and he said:

"If you have high levels of ground noise on a cable, smaller signals simply get burried in this noise. This translates to bad separation of instruments and such. So you have to get rid of this noise."


----------



## Sandel

Ok.No, HDMI is NOT digital as in "what goes in does come out". This is a common misunderstanding.
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Eye_Measurements_on_HDMI_signals.pdf

Please take a look at the pictures on page 10 and 11, fig 8 to 11. These show the so called "Eye Diagram" on a real time scope from different sources.
On fig 11, you see what DC currents do to a HDMI signal. Compare it to the other "better" scope readings.

Do you get the point?

If you want to know more about HDMI cables, you could either read the review I posted earlier  - or this. It's pretty "non technical" and easy to understand. Of course it's a bit biased as it comes from Audioquest, but you'll get the idea:
https://www.fpga4fun.com/files/HDMI_Demystified_rev_1_02.pdf


I've attached a good example of degraded signal quality in an HDMI cable...


----------



## Sandel

Mike Garrett said:


> [...] if doing a listening test and trying to hear the subtle differences, you need to listen in mono. Listening in stereo, makes it very hard to hear any difference, even if there is a difference in sound quality and multichannel is even worse.


I never said it was easy to make reliable listening tests.  But unfortunately, my customers insist on stereo or even multichannel productions, so I hardly can give them mono, only because it's a bit easier to compare.


----------



## Sandel

MDesigns said:


> HDMI is digital. There are no "smaller signals".



You're right, I was a bit unprecise:
In fact the DC "overshades" the increasing or falling signal flank. There is always a slope to a signal, so it depends on at what point in time the logic decides whether it's a "one" or a "zero" or even an error. The more the logic has to guess, the worse the signal. And if the signal is short enough and the DC is high enough, it can even overshade the peak amplitude completely.


----------



## MDesigns

Sandel said:


> You're right, I was a bit unprecise:
> In fact the DC "overshades" the increasing or falling signal flank. There is always a slope to a signal, so it depends on at what point in time the logic decides whether it's a "one" or a "zero" or even an error. The more the logic has to guess, the worse the signal. And if the signal is short enough and the DC is high enough, it can even overshade the peak amplitude completely.


Yes, that is correct. But I believe that the errors in HDMI signal would cause all kinds of random errors in image or sound. Errors that really can be seen or heard. Errors in digital signal can't make the color saturation generally smaller or make one range of sound worse.


----------



## Die Zwei

MDesigns said:


> Yes, that is correct. But I believe that the errors in HDMI signal would cause all kinds of random errors in image or sound. Errors that really can be seen or heard. Errors in digital signal can't make the color saturation generally smaller or make one range of sound worse.


The only reason i could think of is based on what Jim said a couple of days ago:
I understood there´s a mechanism in the HDMI specification that allows the sender and receiver to reduce bandwidth if too many errors occour. Plus regarding image, errors are masked to hide them, so they are not that obvious to spot than sparkles in FHD.
However, i agree - that shouldn´t create effects often heard in the description of highend gear.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Sandel said:


> Ok.No, HDMI is NOT digital as in "what goes in does come out". This is a common misunderstanding.
> https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Eye_Measurements_on_HDMI_signals.pdf
> 
> Please take a look at the pictures on page 10 and 11, fig 8 to 11. These show the so called "Eye Diagram" on a real time scope from different sources.
> On fig 11, you see what DC currents do to a HDMI signal. Compare it to the other "better" scope readings.
> 
> Do you get the point?
> 
> If you want to know more about HDMI cables, you could either read the review I posted earlier  - or this. It's pretty "non technical" and easy to understand. Of course it's a bit biased as it comes from Audioquest, but you'll get the idea:
> https://www.fpga4fun.com/files/HDMI_Demystified_rev_1_02.pdf
> 
> 
> I've attached a good example of degraded signal quality in an HDMI cable...


Interesting, even in one of your links it says:

"There’s a wide spread myth about digital video cables like HDMI. *Due to the cliff
effect, all the cables have the same perfect picture when they work, even those of
lowest cost. "*


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> Interesting, even in one of your links it says:
> 
> "There’s a wide spread myth about digital video cables like HDMI. *Due to the cliff
> effect, all the cables have the same perfect picture when they work, even those of
> ** lowest cost. "*


I'm gathering up chairs, beer and snacks to watch the food fight. And while I am on the side of whoever wrote the above, no one on this forum who is of the same position as I will change the opinion of those who have a different view. No different than politics, or "religion" or ........

This could be fun !!


----------



## Die Zwei

hockyAVS said:


> Perhaps we can move this kind of adverstising to a different forum area?
> These kind of discussions lead to nowhere.



Quoting myself - i saw this coming...  
A beer for me, please.


----------



## audioguy

If the OP on this topic wants affirmation of his position, he should go visit *HERE. *Fewer (but not none) will disagree with his analysis.


----------



## Sandel

Mike Garrett said:


> Interesting, even in one of your links it says:
> 
> "There’s a wide spread myth about digital video cables like HDMI. *Due to the cliff
> effect, all the cables have the same perfect picture when they work, even those of
> lowest cost. "*


You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. :wink:


----------



## Sandel

Sorry guys, show is over.
Next topic please!


----------



## jrp

Lot's of posts on cables, jitter and noise. I would like to make what I hope are some final comments on this topic (at least for a while as this is always important).

In my opinion the "HDMI cliff effect" is better described as a "plateau with a steep slope to nothingness." What I mean by this is the signal often does not go from 100% to 0% as a cliff. Rather you can be on the plateau, but as you approach the edge you can get a higher bit error rate without losing audio or video. In this marginal area you may have a picture, but with pixel errors or audio with sample errors. The jitter is higher in the margin area as well.

I always describe HDMI as "hanging off a cliff by your finger nails, and you want to keep all 10 nails on the cliff." The "steep slope" is like having a few finger nails slip off the cliff but not enough that you fall. You can degrade the image without losing the image, and you can degrade the audio without losing the audio.

I agree with the desire for quantifiable and measurable results, and in the use of a double-blind experiment. It is unfortunate that sometimes these are not practical to accomplish. What can be measured with the right equipment is bit-error-rate, and harmonic distortion.

I think there is still merit in viewing and listening tests, at least for your own use. I attended a demo in Germany by Cinemike to compare the original Pro design (which had higher jitter than current design) to the Cinemike "hot rod" version. Cinemike reduced the jitter (as measured on the Tektronix HDMI tester), and the electrical noise floor (as shown on a spectrum analyser). They wanted me to judge if there was a difference. I told them to consider me an "open minded skeptic" as to whether the improvements would be visible or audible. They played video/music with the original Pro and their hot rod version. I did hear an audible improvement. I describe this to be a more open sound stage, and I attribute this to the lower jitter out of the Pro. I considered the lower jitter version a closer match to my 2-channel Jeff Roland, Watt Puppy, based system (no longer have this). So, IMO, a noticeable, and appreciated, improvement. However, I did not see any visible picture difference. The original Pro was IMO without issue for video, but I thought there was room for improvement for audio.

How sure was I? I can tell you that I added significant cost in a revision of the Radiance Pro design to change to microwave capacitors in key locations to reduce output jitter, and to a small degree electrical noise. This was out of my profit since I did not increase the product cost at the same time. I can assure if I was not certain there was an improvement I would not reduce my profit for such a change. Not a chance. While I upgraded to microwave capacitors for audio, having lower jitter for video is not a bad thing and might put a "system" with a marginal cable or a marginal projector input into the "good enough" range.

===== 

For short distances I believe that an excellent 18GHz certified wired cable is the right way to get HDMI from sources to the Radiance Pro and from the Radiance Pro to the audio processor. IMO there is no advantage using a fiber cable for short runs, and in fact many fiber cables can increase the jitter in the process of converting the HDMI electrical signal to fiber and back. I recommend Tributaries 18 GHz certified UHDP cables for these 2 to 3 meter runs. They are excellent both electrically and mechanically at a not unreasonable price point ($100 USD in the USA retail for the 2 meter UHDP). There are other brands that are also excellent. Just make sure your passive cable is 18 GHz certified, and is at least 2 meters long. IMO there is no reason to spend more than this on a passive HDMI cable. The UHDP cable gets the signal through without any significant increase in jitter.

As always I recommend using a passive HDMI cable at least 2 meters long, and when possible no longer than 3 meters. We have many cases of dealers and customers having issues with 1 meter cables that switching to the same brand 2 meter cable resolves. The obvious benefit in these cases is getting a solid image and audio. However, the fact that the signal can be lost when using shorter cables is empirical evidence of increased jitter. This is due to there being cable EQ in HDMI outputs and inputs. I often refer to short cables causing the "Goldilocks problem." That is the "porridge is too hot."

For long cables I recommend a fiber cable. There are excellent, and not so excellent, fiber cables. IMO while there is nothing wrong with the absolute lowest jitter, there is definitely a point of "good enough" jitter to not increase the bit error rate. This in turn depends on the quality of the source, the quality of the fiber cable, and the quality of the HDMI input design of the down-stream device. So it is difficult to know, other than by viewing, if you have achieved this. And as I noted error masking makes video differences subtle, and only visible as a loss of detail. I also discussed electrical noise down the HDMI cable from the source to the projector/TV. So there can be an advantage in a all-fiber connection.

IMO the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" is a excellent fiber cable at a not unreasonable price point of $465 USD in the USA for a 10 meter length. There are cheaper and more expensive hybrid-fiber (i.e. video on fiber, DDC signals on wire). The Vega cable has worked where the popular less-expensive hybrid-fiber cables did not. There are other excellent hybrid-fiber cables.

For full-disclosure: After I was recommending the Tributaries cables for a long time, I decided to sell them. However, I do want to emphasize that I recommended them long before I started selling them. I don't sell a lot for these, and I recommend to my dealers that they should become Tributaries dealers.

I hope this information is useful to everyone. I think between the hype and the disbelief there are technical merits to consider in your cable choices.


----------



## Die Zwei

Thanks Jim bringing this topic back to the ground.
A solid cable in the $100+ price range sounds completely reasonable for me.

What´s your opinion on CAT and fiber extenders? Crestron, Extron, etc.


----------



## Mike Garrett

So it sounds like a 6' premium certified HDMI from source to Lumagen and another one from Lumagen to prepro for audio should be good. Would help keep jitter low and a decent fiber optic HDMI from Lumagen to projector and you are good on the video side.


----------



## audioguy

hockyAVS said:


> Thanks Jim bringing this topic back to the ground.
> A solid cable in the $100+ price range sounds completely reasonable for me.
> 
> What´s your opinion on CAT and fiber extenders? Crestron, Extron, etc.



$100 to $200? Yes. $3000? Not a shot!!


----------



## jrp

hockyAVS said:


> Thanks Jim bringing this topic back to the ground.
> A solid cable in the $100+ price range sounds completely reasonable for me.
> 
> What´s your opinion on CAT and fiber extenders? Crestron, Extron, etc.


I strongly recommend *against* CAT Baluns for 4k content. I have talked to a number of dealers who have had enough issues with them that they will no longer use a CAT based Balun for 4k. If there is a CAT Balun in a system and that system has issues, in my experience the it is Balun that prove to be the heart of the issues. I often have the dealers run a fiber cable (along the floor if needed) to test and without any exception I can recall the fiber cable works where the Balun does not.

Note that I am *not* saying "a CAT Balun cannot work," but what I am saying is I recommend you avoid giving them the chance of causing issues.

========= 

I think fiber based extenders will be a good way to go, but maybe not yet. The issue is not the fiber itself but the HDMI to fiber and fiber back to HDMI. It has been a while since I have tested any fiber extenders, so it is possible the vendors have improved their HDMI/fiber interface.

One brand I had high hopes for used a short HDMI cable integrated with the HDMI-to-fiber driver. I believe their HDMI input circuitry did not have proper attenuation of the signal to compensate for how short the cable was, which caused issues. Since then I have heard this vendor now uses a HDMI-to-Fiber "box" and you connect to it from the source using a standard 2 meter HDMI cable. This would address the "short cable" issue I saw and so it may now be a good choice (but I have not tested it).


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> Lot's of posts on cables, jitter and noise. I would like to make what I hope are some final comments on this topic (at least for a while as this is always important).
> 
> In my opinion the "HDMI cliff effect" is better described as a "plateau with a steep slope to nothingness." What I mean by this is the signal often does not go from 100% to 0% as a cliff. Rather you can be on the plateau, but as you approach the edge you can get a higher bit error rate without losing audio or video. In this marginal area you may have a picture, but with pixel errors or audio with sample errors. The jitter is higher in the margin area as well.
> 
> I always describe HDMI as "hanging off a cliff by your finger nails, and you want to keep all 10 nails on the cliff." The "steep slope" is like having a few finger nails slip off the cliff but not enough that you fall. You can degrade the image without losing the image, and you can degrade the audio without losing the audio.
> 
> I agree with the desire for quantifiable and measurable results, and in the use of a double-blind experiment. It is unfortunate that sometimes these are not practical to accomplish. What can be measured with the right equipment is bit-error-rate, and harmonic distortion.
> 
> I think there is still merit in viewing and listening tests, at least for your own use. I attended a demo in Germany by Cinemike to compare the original Pro design (which had higher jitter than current design) to the Cinemike "hot rod" version. Cinemike reduced the jitter (as measured on the Tektronix HDMI tester), and the electrical noise floor (as shown on a spectrum analyser). They wanted me to judge if there was a difference. I told them to consider me an "open minded skeptic" as to whether the improvements would be visible or audible. They played video/music with the original Pro and their hot rod version. I did hear an audible improvement. I describe this to be a more open sound stage, and I attribute this to the lower jitter out of the Pro. I considered the lower jitter version a closer match to my 2-channel Jeff Roland, Watt Puppy, based system (no longer have this). So, IMO, a noticeable, and appreciated, improvement. However, I did not see any visible picture difference. The original Pro was IMO without issue for video, but I thought there was room for improvement for audio.
> 
> How sure was I? I can tell you that I added significant cost in a revision of the Radiance Pro design to change to microwave capacitors in key locations to reduce output jitter, and to a small degree electrical noise. This was out of my profit since I did not increase the product cost at the same time. I can assure if I was not certain there was an improvement I would not reduce my profit for such a change. Not a chance. While I upgraded to microwave capacitors for audio, having lower jitter for video is not a bad thing and might put a "system" with a marginal cable or a marginal projector input into the "good enough" range.
> 
> =====
> 
> For short distances I believe that an excellent 18GHz certified wired cable is the right way to get HDMI from sources to the Radiance Pro and from the Radiance Pro to the audio processor. IMO there is no advantage using a fiber cable for short runs, and in fact many fiber cables can increase the jitter in the process of converting the HDMI electrical signal to fiber and back. I recommend Tributaries 18 GHz certified UHDP cables for these 2 to 3 meter runs. They are excellent both electrically and mechanically at a not unreasonable price point ($100 USD in the USA retail for the 2 meter UHDP). There are other brands that are also excellent. Just make sure your passive cable is 18 GHz certified, and is at least 2 meters long. IMO there is no reason to spend more than this on a passive HDMI cable. The UHDP cable gets the signal through without any significant increase in jitter.
> 
> As always I recommend using a passive HDMI cable at least 2 meters long, and when possible no longer than 3 meters. We have many cases of dealers and customers having issues with 1 meter cables that switching to the same brand 2 meter cable resolves. The obvious benefit in these cases is getting a solid image and audio. However, the fact that the signal can be lost when using shorter cables is empirical evidence of increased jitter. This is due to there being cable EQ in HDMI outputs and inputs. I often refer to short cables causing the "Goldilocks problem." That is the "porridge is too hot."
> 
> For long cables I recommend a fiber cable. There are excellent, and not so excellent, fiber cables. IMO while there is nothing wrong with the absolute lowest jitter, there is definitely a point of "good enough" jitter to not increase the bit error rate. This in turn depends on the quality of the source, the quality of the fiber cable, and the quality of the HDMI input design of the down-stream device. So it is difficult to know, other than by viewing, if you have achieved this. And as I noted error masking makes video differences subtle, and only visible as a loss of detail. I also discussed electrical noise down the HDMI cable from the source to the projector/TV. So there can be an advantage in a all-fiber connection.
> 
> IMO the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" is a excellent fiber cable at a not unreasonable price point of $465 USD in the USA for a 10 meter length. There are cheaper and more expensive hybrid-fiber (i.e. video on fiber, DDC signals on wire). The Vega cable has worked where the popular less-expensive hybrid-fiber cables did not. There are other excellent hybrid-fiber cables.
> 
> For full-disclosure: After I was recommending the Tributaries cables for a long time, I decided to sell them. However, I do want to emphasize that I recommended them long before I started selling them. I don't sell a lot for these, and I recommend to my dealers that they should become Tributaries dealers.
> 
> I hope this information is useful to everyone. I think between the hype and the disbelief there are technical merits to consider in your cable choices.



Are microwave capacitors used in all Lumagen Radiance Pro, or just later revisions ? If the latter, how do you know if the unit you are purchasing has them ?


----------



## ShaharT

Mark_H said:


> Doesn't mean it's not possible, and shouldn't put people off trying. One of the most satisfying journeys I've been on in this hobby over the decades is learning all the calibration/image science stuff myself.
> 
> 
> 
> This is perhaps the real barrier to great calibration...


Can anyone please recommend a good (several thousand of dollars is fine, considering this is a long term investment) combination of a sensor/software for calibration of a projector? 

Preferably from a site that does international shipping and hopefully shipping will work in Corona times as well...

I may as well learn this part of the hobby while I'm in curfew....

I found the attached (screenshot) on Calman's site, but given the cost I rather have someone in the knowhow tell me it makes sense


----------



## loggeo

ShaharT said:


> Can anyone please recommend a good (several thousand of dollars is fine, considering this is a long term investment) combination of a sensor/software for calibration of a projector?
> 
> Preferably from a site that does international shipping and hopefully shipping will work in Corona times as well...
> 
> I may as well learn this part of the hobby while I'm in curfew....
> 
> I found the attached (screenshot) on Calman's site, but given the cost I rather have someone in the knowhow tell me it makes sense



To me, Lightspace is a great product when it comes to generating luts, which is the case for systems that contain a Lumagen Pro or madvr.
It's working environment is nowhere near as nice as Calman's though. Calman is an expensive product with high annual maintenance fees. 
Their decision to cancel home enthusiast version really annoyed a lot of users (me included). 

What I like about Lightspace is that a measured profile can be stored and any target lut can be generated and uploaded into a lumagen within seconds.


----------



## tnaik4

loggeo said:


> To me, Lightspace is a great product when it comes to generating luts, which is the case for systems that contain a Lumagen Pro or madvr.
> It's working environment is nowhere near as nice as Calman's though. Calman is an expensive product with high annual maintenance fees.
> Their decision to cancel home enthusiast version really annoyed a lot of users (me included).
> 
> What I like about Lightspace is that a measured profile can be stored and any target lut can be generated and uploaded into a lumagen within seconds.


i second Loggeo opinion, i have both calman and lightspace with a C6 hdr2000 meter, and in my opinion lightspace is vastly superior (for 3dlut creation) and a lot faster also. The only negative is it is not as user friendly as calman and menus doesnt look as good , but ull get the hang of it quickly after reading there excellent tutorials.


----------



## ShaharT

loggeo said:


> To me, Lightspace is a great product when it comes to generating luts, which is the case for systems that contain a Lumagen Pro or madvr.
> It's working environment is nowhere near as nice as Calman's though. Calman is an expensive product with high annual maintenance fees.
> Their decision to cancel home enthusiast version really annoyed a lot of users (me included).
> 
> What I like about Lightspace is that a measured profile can be stored and any target lut can be generated and uploaded into a lumagen within seconds.


Thanks! Sounds good. Any specific sensor you'd recommend with their app? 
I hope I'm not 'stealing' this thread, but I expect many Lumagen owners also got themselves sensors / sw, as part of this (addiction) hobby.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I recommend LightSpace for LUT creation and calibration with Radiance units. The x rite i1DisplayPro OEM is the ideal candidate for cheap entry in to calibration with LightSpace and a Radiance. If you buy LightSpace now i think you also get free upgrade to ColorSpace (it's replacement)


----------



## loggeo

ShaharT said:


> Thanks! Sounds good. Any specific sensor you'd recommend with their app?
> I hope I'm not 'stealing' this thread, but I expect many Lumagen owners also got themselves sensors / sw, as part of this (addiction) hobby.


I started with an i1 display pro, then moved to a Klein K10-A. There is a huge difference in price of course. I would recommend an i1 display pro/ i1 pro 2 combo for starters. You could spend more money when you become more experienced. 

I never felt the need to purchase a pattern generator as lumagen served me exceptionally well.
What display do you want to calibrate?


----------



## ShaharT

loggeo said:


> I started with an i1 display pro, then moved to a Klein K10-A. There is a huge difference in price of course. I would recommend an i1 display pro/ i1 pro 2 combo for starters. You could spend more money when you become more experienced.
> 
> I never felt the need to purchase a pattern generator as lumagen served me exceptionally well.
> What display do you want to calibrate?


Thanks! The projector is a Sony 995, projecting to a 140" diagonal 2.4 SI Transformer screen.
It's in a 7.2.14 speaker setup system.


----------



## mikela

I traded in Calman for LightSpace awhile back. It took me a fair amount of time to get used to it. However, I am now quite pleased with the results using a CR-100. It reminded me of Excel, you just have to jump in and start using it.


----------



## audioguy

ShaharT said:


> It's in a 7.2.14 speaker setup system.



Where did you put 14 speakers on your ceiling? I'm pushing it with 10.


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> Are microwave capacitors used in all Lumagen Radiance Pro, or just later revisions ? If the latter, how do you know if the unit you are purchasing has them ?


Units shipped since about January 2019 should have the microwave capacitors on the 18 GHz output card. We added microwave caps to the main board, 18 GHz input card, and 9 GHz output card, in critical locations shortly after that.

The only way to be sure is to take the cover off and check for a revision number label on the board. I/O daughter cards (18 GHz in and out, or 9 GHz out) that have the microwave capacitors should have a small label that says "Rev 1.3" on them. The Radiance Pro 444X, and Radiance Pro 424X, main boards that have the microwave capacitor should have a small label that says "Rev 2.2" on them. I think some boards with the microwave capacitors escaped without getting their labels, but if the above noted label is there the board has the microwave capacitors.

Even without the labels if you bought a new (non-B-Stock) unit since about March last year you should have the microwave capacitors. When we switched to the microwave version we still had some I/O cards that did not have the microwave capacitors and so if you bought a B-stock unit in the past year it might have boards without the microwave capacitors, or some mix. Note however, that most B-Stock units sold in the past year have the microwave caps.

So the next question is "should I upgrade if I do not have the microwave capacitors?" This is s difficult question to answer for every case. My recommendation is:

- If your system is working well, you do not need to upgrade for video. You are very unlikely to see any difference in the image. However, if you want the lowest jitter to improve your HDMI signal margin, then you can consider the output upgrade for either the 9 GHz or the 18 GHz output card(s). HDMI is all about margin, and you *might* lower your bit-error-rate some. No guarantee you will, and difficult to judge since you have to swap out cards to do an A-B comparison. I tell people it is likely not worth the money to upgrade for this, but I have had a couple people want to know they have the best and went for the upgrade even though they did not have any issues.

- If you are having lock on issues with your projector, you might consider upgrading to an output card (either 9 GHz or 18 GHz) with microwave capacitors. However, as an engineer, I would say a better fiber cable (such as the Tributaries UHDV Vega hybrid-fiber, that buffers the HDMI right at the input of the projector) is likely the best choice for the marginal inputs on many projectors.

- Unless you have issues on the input side (e.g. dropouts with a single source and not others) there is likely no reason to upgrade the 18 GHz input card to one with the microwave capacitors. I do have one example of a system that had dropout issues with one source (only, out of several) and we upgraded the customer to the 18 GHz input card with microwave capacitors and the customer said it resolved his issues with that source.

- If you are an audiophile and want to reduce jitter going to your audio processor further, then upgrading the output card you use for audio (the 444X has two, and of course there is only one in the 424X) is worth considering. However, be aware that if your audio processor has a really good dejitter circuit, reducing the jitter at the input of the audio processor may not significantly reduce the jitter at the DAC.

- If you have a main board that predates the microwave capacitor upgrade I recommend you not even consider upgrading the main board. It is expensive and I believe only has an effect on the electrical noise floor, rather than output jitter. I have only had one person trade-in an older Radiance Pro to get the current revision so they would have the microwave capacitors, but I suggest that it is not worth spending the money.

If you want to discuss your specific situation, please email Lumagen support or call 503-574-2211 Option 2. I would be happy to discuss this topic with you.


----------



## ShaharT

audioguy said:


> Where did you put 14 speakers on your ceiling? I'm pushing it with 10.


Let me use this opportunity to say how blown I am with your build  I keep looking at it from time to time.

My .14 are as follows: 3 sets of tops (TF, TM, TR) + 1 set of front-heights + 1 set of front-rears. Then + a single DTS OH speaker (aka T in Auro-talk) + a single DTS Center height speaker. Lastly... + a pair of Auro Height Right/Left speakers. 

It's actually a 7.3.14 setup, only that I'm having trouble wiring the 3rd sub at the moment  so far now only 2 subs are wired.


----------



## docrog

ShaharT said:


> Let me use this opportunity to say how blown I am with your build  I keep looking at it from time to time. My .14 are as follows: 3 sets of tops (TF, TM, TR) + 1 set of front-heights + 1 set of front-rears. Then + a single DTS OH speaker (aka T in Auro-talk) + a single DTS Center height speaker. Lastly... + a pair of Auro Height Right/Left speakers. It's actually a 7.3.14 setup, only that I'm having trouble wiring the 3rd sub at the moment  so far now only 2 subs are wired.


What are the dimensions of your theater space? How many rows of seating? Are seating rows aligned with side or top speaker pairings? Lastly, where is your MLP? Thanks!


----------



## audioguy

ShaharT said:


> Let me use this opportunity to say how blown I am with your build  I keep looking at it from time to time.


Thank you. Very kind of you.



> My .14 are as follows: 3 sets of tops (TF, TM, TR) + 1 set of front-heights + 1 set of front-rears. Then + a single DTS OH speaker (aka T in Auro-talk) + a single DTS Center height speaker. Lastly... + a pair of Auro Height Right/Left speakers.
> 
> It's actually a 7.3.14 setup, only that I'm having trouble wiring the 3rd sub at the moment  so far now only 2 subs are wired.


I'm sure it sounds terrific.


----------



## ShaharT

Thanks all for your suggestions re:sensor / software. 

I've just ordered Lightspace STP (with a free upgrade to Colourspace), CR-250RH Spectroradiometer and CR-100 Tristimulus Colorimeter. 

Can't wait to receive it and become a learning amateur in another part of this hobby


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Thanks all for your suggestions re:sensor / software.
> 
> I've just ordered Lightspace STP (with a free upgrade to Colourspace), CR-250RH Spectroradiometer and CR-100 Tristimulus Colorimeter.
> 
> Can't wait to receive it and become a learning amateur in another part of this hobby


Awesome, good choice. Colourspace is looking like a great bit of software. Some of the new charting styles will really show the benefits of 3DLUT calibration over traditional CMS based calibration, can't wait for it to be released.


----------



## loggeo

To anyone that knows the answer. When outputting sdrp3 from the Lumagen pro, jvc (rs3000) says under colorimetry that it accepts bt.2020 no matter what color profile I chose (dci, bt2020 etc). Is this a bug? Is there a conversion (dci-->rec.2020) going on?


----------



## denon a1xva

Same here and fully agree with the reviewers findings. Besides the performance, IMHO the "cable" should be considered as a hardware component not as a cable.

Together with the CineMike complete chain which includes the Lumagen, the best sound and picture I have ever experienced. At the moment I am testing the cable in my own set up. 





Sandel said:


> Hi,
> 
> as probably all of you know, the HDMI cable that connects the projector with the rest of the gear (in most cases it's comming from the Lumagen or the receiver/processor) is to be chosen wisely.
> Here is a review of one of those cables that might be of interest for you:
> 
> http://www.secret-lab.xyz/2019/10/08/cinemike-fibre-hdmi-cable/
> 
> 
> I bought this cable too and can confirm the reviewer's findings a 100%.


----------



## audioguy

I was going to post this on another thread (Nvidia Shield) and I'm sure this is not a Lumagen issue but hopefully someone here can assist. I have a Nvidia Shield, Oppo and AppleTV connected to the Lumagen. 90% of the time, if I startup the system and select the Shield as the source, I end up with an all green screen. If I then select the Oppo and then re-select the Shield, all is well. It has not always done this but started a month or so ago. And it MAY have started at the time I did some kind of Shield firmware update but I'm not 100% sure of that. 

Anyone have any idea of what kinds of settings I should be looking for in the Shield to fix this rather annoying problem?


----------



## Sandel

denon a1xva said:


> Same here and fully agree with the reviewers findings. Besides the performance, IMHO the "cable" should be considered as a hardware component not as a cable.
> 
> Together with the CineMike complete chain which includes the Lumagen, the best sound and picture I have ever experienced. At the moment I am testing the cable in my own set up.



Looking forward to hear about your findings...


----------



## ShaharT

It must have been asked here before multiple times, but I couldn't google the answer within the thread.

I'm getting PCM from my Apple TV 4K. I triple checked all settings in the ATV and all seem correct.

I've read online others having a similar question, not with a Lumagen but with other devices, and the recommended answer was to change something in the 'target' device HDMI settings.

Am I getting this wrong, and PCM output from ATV is fine, or is there actually something I should change in my Lumagen definitions, to get bitstream? I see that the PCM signal does include full 7 channels, so maybe all is as it should be.


----------



## Die Zwei

ShaharT said:


> Am I getting this wrong, and PCM output from ATV is fine, or is there actually something I should change in my Lumagen definitions, to get bitstream? I see that the PCM signal does include full 7 channels, so maybe all is as it should be.


AFAIR Apple has dropped Bitstream output with (one of) the latest update.


----------



## steelman1991

ShaharT said:


> It must have been asked here before multiple times, but I couldn't google the answer within the thread.
> 
> I'm getting PCM from my Apple TV 4K. I triple checked all settings in the ATV and all seem correct.
> 
> I've read online others having a similar question, not with a Lumagen but with other devices, and the recommended answer was to change something in the 'target' device HDMI settings.
> 
> Am I getting this wrong, and PCM output from ATV is fine, or is there actually something I should change in my Lumagen definitions, to get bitstream? I see that the PCM signal does include full 7 channels, so maybe all is as it should be.


That's all you will get from the AppleTV, if you want lossless sound (minus Atmos/DTS:X) from rip sources - then PCM is the best you will get (unless your streaming from one of the Apps - where you will get Atmos, on selected titles). No changes to any will give you. AFAIK there has never been a "bitstream" option, in the AppleTV.


----------



## DannyBoy73

audioguy said:


> I was going to post this on another thread (Nvidia Shield) and I'm sure this is not a Lumagen issue but hopefully someone here can assist. I have a Nvidia Shield, Oppo and AppleTV connected to the Lumagen. 90% of the time, if I startup the system and select the Shield as the source, I end up with an all green screen. If I then select the Oppo and then re-select the Shield, all is well. It has not always done this but started a month or so ago. And it MAY have started at the time I did some kind of Shield firmware update but I'm not 100% sure of that.
> 
> Anyone have any idea of what kinds of settings I should be looking for in the Shield to fix this rather annoying problem?


I too have seen just a green screen a handful of times. I've also screen issues where I see a top half the screen black and the bottom half pixelated picture.

I've currently got my Shield -> Anthem -> Lumagen -> PJ. My plan this weekend is to play around the video chain and various HDMI cables and see if I can make it more stable.


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> I was going to post this on another thread (Nvidia Shield) and I'm sure this is not a Lumagen issue but hopefully someone here can assist. I have a Nvidia Shield, Oppo and AppleTV connected to the Lumagen. 90% of the time, if I startup the system and select the Shield as the source, I end up with an all green screen. If I then select the Oppo and then re-select the Shield, all is well. It has not always done this but started a month or so ago. And it MAY have started at the time I did some kind of Shield firmware update but I'm not 100% sure of that.
> 
> Anyone have any idea of what kinds of settings I should be looking for in the Shield to fix this rather annoying problem?


Remember a discussion with my CI sometime ago regarding this and I'm sure he said that it is caused by a HDMI handshake failure, linked to HDCP 2.2.

Here's a link that explains a little of it https://www.techwalla.com/articles/what-causes-the-green-screen-with-an-hdmi

I'm not sure how you would troubleshoot, given the number of sources you are likely to have, other than unplug them all and then add in one at a time. Though I guess if it's only happening with the Shield, then that might not be necessary. Hopefully another firmware update will resolve your issue. Not sure that there is any setting which will change this behaviour.


----------



## steelman1991

DannyBoy73 said:


> I too have seen just a green screen a handful of times. I've also screen issues where I see a top half the screen black and the bottom half pixelated picture.
> 
> I've currently got my Shield -> Anthem -> Lumagen -> PJ. My plan this weekend is to play around the video chain and various HDMI cables and see if I can make it more stable.


When Gordon Fraser was at mine recently calibrating my system, he suggested that the "black top half and pixelated bottom" (oooo errrr missus ) was a know problem, where the sources were connected in your current arrangement - source > AVR > Lumagen > PJ. To resolve he went source > Lumagen, then split audio to AVR and Video to PJ using outputs 1 and 2.

I couldn't live with that arrangement. It was causing audio stability issues with some sources and I decided to go back to your arrangement. Using my processor as switching unit, then on to Lumagen and PJ. At the same time I replaced "all" my cables (which were "Premium Certified") with newer ones - again "Premium Certified" - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00Z9X0USK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Since I introduced these cables, my system has been rock-solid and I have seen none of the previous issues described by you. Clearly YMMV, but something to maybe consider. I should add these were the 3rd set of cables I tried (thank goodness for Amazon's return policy), before I got ones that worked


----------



## DannyBoy73

steelman1991 said:


> When Gordon Fraser was at mine recently calibrating my system, he suggested that the "black top half and pixelated bottom" (oooo errrr missus ) was a know problem, where the sources were connected in your current arrangement - source > AVR > Lumagen > PJ. To resolve he went source > Lumagen, then split audio to AVR and Video to PJ using outputs 1 and 2.
> 
> I couldn't live with that arrangement. It was causing audio stability issues with some sources and I decided to go back to your arrangement. Using my processor as switching unit, then on to Lumagen and PJ. At the same time I replaced "all" my cables (which were "Premium Certified") with newer ones - again "Premium Certified" - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00Z9X0USK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Since I introduced these cables, my system has been rock-solid and I have seen none of the previous issues described by you. Clearly YMMV, but something to maybe consider. I should add these were the 3rd set of cables I tried (thank goodness for Amazon's return policy), before I got ones that worked


Thanks @steelman1991.

Gordon did my install too!! Thanks for the HDMI cable link, will take a whole look at my setup this weekend, I've got a few cables to try and will order a couple of those too, as you say, Amazon is great for returns. I'll report back.


----------



## aeneas01

ShaharT said:


> Let me use this opportunity to say how blown I am with your build  I keep looking at it from time to time.
> 
> My .14 are as follows: 3 sets of tops (TF, TM, TR) + 1 set of front-heights + 1 set of front-rears. Then + a single DTS OH speaker (aka T in Auro-talk) + a single DTS Center height speaker. Lastly... + a pair of Auro Height Right/Left speakers.
> 
> It's actually a 7.3.14 setup, only that I'm having trouble wiring the 3rd sub at the moment  so far now only 2 subs are wired.


man i love this forum! great stuff!


----------



## Ian_Currie

Does anyone have any experience using a Chromecast Ultra to stream Vudu UHD movies through the Lumagen? 

I'm getting 2160p 59.9hz but it's coming as SDR709 instead of HDR. I'm wondering if it's some sort of EDID issue, a setting in the Lumagen.

I've done some research and know that the ChromecastUltra does support HDR so I can only guess it thinks my display can't handle HDR.

Any help much appreciated, thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

The only way an EDID got changed in the Lumagen is if you went in and changed it, and that isn't something you'd have done without knowing it, as it is buried deep.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Thanks for the response, Kris. I was just guessing.

In any case, I updated my Lumagen and now it works. I should have done that before posting, my bad.


----------



## dlinsley

loggeo said:


> To anyone that knows the answer. When outputting sdrp3 from the Lumagen pro, jvc (rs3000) says under colorimetry that it accepts bt.2020 no matter what color profile I chose (dci, bt2020 etc). Is this a bug? Is there a conversion (dci-->rec.2020) going on?


I have the same projector, and also use P3 output from the Lumagen (as configured by Kris). IIRC HDMI doesn't have a method of signaling the content is DCI/P3 and so instead you just need both devices to manually agree what the bits mean. Sending 2020/HDR lets the JVC switch to the configured picture mode automatically.


----------



## jrp

We are getting closer to a new Radiance Pro DTM release with zone based analysis. Unfortunately it is taking longer than we hoped due to the complexity of detecting zone based "flashes" and other changes, without affecting scenes that should not be changed by this analysis.

We believe the zone bases analysis is already another significant improvement, but there is some additional FPGA design and software to address a very few scenes that we would like to improve. I won't predict a date as it seems this process always takes more time that we would like.


----------



## mhafner

I wonder if the zone based approach is a variation of a histogram based approach.


----------



## Kris Deering

dlinsley said:


> I have the same projector, and also use P3 output from the Lumagen (as configured by Kris). IIRC HDMI doesn't have a method of signaling the content is DCI/P3 and so instead you just need both devices to manually agree what the bits mean. Sending 2020/HDR lets the JVC switch to the configured picture mode automatically.


What color output you are sending makes no difference for making the JVC switch the picture mode automatically. It is simply having the HDR flag ON that does this.


----------



## Kris Deering

mhafner said:


> I wonder if the zone based approach is a variation of a histogram based approach.


The Lumagen is analyzing the incoming frame completely (it buffers the frame) and then decides what to do. So in a way, yes. I'm sure MadVR's approach is slightly different with the same intentions. Based on what I've been told about "Highlight Recovery", it sounds like it is trying to achieve the same thing that DPAD is doing as well.


----------



## jrp

mhafner said:


> I wonder if the zone based approach is a variation of a histogram based approach.


We do not normally comment on algorithms, but I think it is okay that I point out that Radiance Pro DTM has always used histograms. This is a rather basic element of image analysis and we did not feel it worth mention.

The change is now there is a "zone based" aspect to the histograms, and other analysis, the Radiance Pro does for DTM.


----------



## ysati

*JVC N5 HDR with Radiance Pro*

Jim Peterson gave me information about HDR calibration:
"Yves:
You *must* calibrate using a SDR source. DTM is *never* on for SDR. You *cannot* calibrate with DTM using a HDR source. It will not work.
Thanks.
Jim Peterson"


----------



## riddle

ysati said:


> Jim Peterson gave me information about HDR calibration:
> "Yves:
> You *must* calibrate using a SDR source. DTM is *never* on for SDR. You *cannot* calibrate with DTM using a HDR source. It will not work.
> Thanks.
> Jim Peterson"



Unfortunately, I do not understand a little bit, I know that there is a kind of language barrier for me but it can not get it...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

He is saying that you should be viewing an SDR source when you are running the calibration patches for profiling for a LUT that will be used for DTM (HDR within the SDR Container). You would set the SDR CMS bank to use the CMS you will use for your HDR LUT then play SDR material and measure. Then once LUT made and uploaded put that CMS bank in to the HDR/REC2020 section and put in the HDR DISP MAX light setting you will use and off you go.


----------



## EVH78

@Jim:

Since the new 12 bit pipeline is under construction will 2.1 HDMI interfaces also be available at some point? Any plans on adding geometry correction like the Envy does?


----------



## EVH78

It would be great if new HDMI 2.1 output boards were dual video output capable!!


----------



## ht guy

3D discs play fine on our Oppo 205->4242->JVC NX7.

Today tried to load up some of the side by side .mkv's we've saved from our discs - all which worked great on when we had our Epson 6040 (and no Lumagen) - but no luck.

On the NX7, tried Auto and Side-by-side under the 3D menu.

Also tried adjusting settings in the Oppo.

The side-by-side image shows up fine, it's just not processing.

I've got just audio going to the AVR with the 4242 handling all video duties.

Possibly this is related to settings in the Lumagen?


----------



## bobof

ht guy said:


> 3D discs play fine on our Oppo 205->4242->JVC NX7.
> 
> 
> 
> Today tried to load up some of the side by side .mkv's we've saved from our discs - all which worked great on when we had our Epson 6040 (and no Lumagen) - but no luck.
> 
> 
> 
> On the NX7, tried Auto and Side-by-side under the 3D menu.
> 
> 
> 
> Also tried adjusting settings in the Oppo.
> 
> 
> 
> The side-by-side image shows up fine, it's just not processing.
> 
> 
> 
> I've got just audio going to the AVR with the 4242 handling all video duties.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly this is related to settings in the Lumagen?


Are you outputting at 60p by any chance? I wonder if that could do it. 

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


----------



## ht guy

bobof said:


> Are you outputting at 60p by any chance? I wonder if that could do it.


I can believe it would.

I will check that.

Thanks.


----------



## bobof

ht guy said:


> I can believe it would.
> 
> I will check that.
> 
> Thanks.


I think upscaling the SBS to 4K might also cause you some issues. Anyway, let us know what fixes it for you.


----------



## ht guy

bobof said:


> I think upscaling the SBS to 4K might also cause you some issues. Anyway, let us know what fixes it for you.


That sounds even more likely than 60hz.

Thanks. I'll let you know.


----------



## jrp

We are about to post Radiance Pro release 041120 with the "Zone-based adaptive DTM."

Much more work than we hoped to get it dialed in, but yet another significant increase in image quality. Patrick worked his scene-cut detection and analysis magic yet again, and we hope you find it as compelling an improvement in the toughest scenes as we do.

As an aside, it helps with scenes we did not anticipate it helping with. It helps the Pro not have a false scene-cut-detect as expected, but it is catching a few scene-cuts that were missed doing "whole scene analysis."

Stay safe and healthy.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> We are about to post Radiance Pro release 041120 with the "Zone-based adaptive DTM."
> 
> Much more work than we hoped to get it dialed in, but yet another significant increase in image quality. Patrick worked his scene-cut detection and analysis magic yet again, and we hope you find it as compelling an improvement in the toughest scenes as we do.
> 
> As an aside, it helps with scenes we did not anticipate it helping with. It helps the Pro not have a false scene-cut-detect as expected, but it is catching a few scene-cuts that were missed doing "whole scene analysis."
> 
> Stay safe and healthy.


Great job Jim and Pat!!


----------



## Kris Deering

Just a heads up for folks about this new release. I've been helping Lumagen with this for a few weeks now. This is a nice improvement in terms of difficult scenes that present issues for a dynamic solution. BUT, with standard content you won't likely see much, if any difference between this release and what you had before. This release is more about how well the DTM handles difficult material with lots of changes that can throw off a dynamic solution and cause visible artifacts. It does ultimately improve the picture quite a bit with a lot of content, but again, this was focused more on extreme cases that certainly aren't the norm, which the Radiance already handles extremely well. There are other little fixes in the build as well (auto NLS fixes, test pattern fixes, other niggles).


----------



## Kris Deering

ht guy said:


> That sounds even more likely than 60hz.
> 
> Thanks. I'll let you know.


Most projectors won't accept a 3D signal that is 4K.


----------



## Vinturbo

new firmware has been released!


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> We are about to post Radiance Pro release 041120 with the "Zone-based adaptive DTM."
> Stay safe and healthy.


Jim,
Now that this is out of the way... how about Crestron Module with AR and Masking solution...
Some people are always asking more... but we are thankful to you for a great product.
Ash


----------



## Vinturbo

sharpness and noise reduction. We have been waiting for a long time!!!


----------



## 4GivingGuy

Vinturbo said:


> new firmware has been released!


Sorry to ask newbie questions but:

1) Is there a good walkthrough/guide for installing FW updates? Needed cables, saving settings, etc?
2) After installing this update, will my PJ need to be recalibrated? Just had it done and I’d hate to undo what Sir Whitcomb recently dialed in. Things are looking darned good...


----------



## Kris Deering

4GivingGuy said:


> Sorry to ask newbie questions but:
> 
> 1) Is there a good walkthrough/guide for installing FW updates? Needed cables, saving settings, etc?
> 2) After installing this update, will my PJ need to be recalibrated? Just had it done and I’d hate to undo what Sir Whitcomb recently dialed in. Things are looking darned good...


The firmware update download comes with a guide on how to load it. Very simple and only requires a laptop and the USB cord that came with the Radiance. 

This firmware shouldn't change anything that has to do with calibration.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW 041120 - "Zone-based adaptive Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM)"*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*Lumagen Firmware 041120*
- Posted 042020 
Numerous HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping improvements. 
Fix for aspect detection for interlaced sources. 
Some other minor auto aspect detection improvements. 
Added rs232 command (ZY418 see tech tip 11 for usage) to set background/foreground color for text messages. 
Fix for 'NLS when applicable' under *Input: Options: Aspect Setup: Auto Aspect *which when set to 'on' did not set NLS when exiting the menu. 
Fix for full rs232 input change report change (v2) not always reporting a change (useful for control systems). 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware




jrp said:


> We are about to post Radiance Pro release 041120 with the "Zone-based adaptive DTM."
> 
> Much more work than we hoped to get it dialed in, but yet another significant increase in image quality. Patrick worked his scene-cut detection and analysis magic yet again, and we hope you find it as compelling an improvement in the toughest scenes as we do.
> 
> As an aside, it helps with scenes we did not anticipate it helping with. It helps the Pro not have a false scene-cut-detect as expected, but it is catching a few scene-cuts that were missed doing "whole scene analysis."
> 
> Stay safe and healthy.





Kris Deering said:


> Just a heads up for folks about this new release. I've been helping Lumagen with this for a few weeks now. This is a nice improvement in terms of difficult scenes that present issues for a dynamic solution. BUT, with standard content you won't likely see much, if any difference between this release and what you had before. This release is more about how well the DTM handles difficult material with lots of changes that can throw off a dynamic solution and cause visible artifacts. It does ultimately improve the picture quite a bit with a lot of content, but again, this was focused more on extreme cases that certainly aren't the norm, which the Radiance already handles extremely well. There are other little fixes in the build as well (auto NLS fixes, test pattern fixes, other niggles).





Vinturbo said:


> new firmware has been released!



*EDIT* - not in current 041120 release


Vinturbo said:


> sharpness and noise reduction. We have been waiting for a long time!!!


----------



## *Harry*

Mike_WI said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Vinturbo*
> _sharpness and noise reduction. We have been waiting for a long time!!!_


 If I got it correctly, that just was a wish for the next todo.
Or do we really have the implementation of that in 041120?


----------



## Vinturbo

no, it's a request for the next improvement.
I'm sure Lumagen will do these too.


----------



## A7mad78

any thoughts about the new FW still not download it maybe today I will do 


trinnov altitude32,Triad Gold system 9.4.6, Barco BalderCS, LumagenPro,kaleidescape strato& terra,
D-box,stewart ST100 165”, oppo203, APTV4k,QSC DCA amps


----------



## riddle

i am still at work... but I'm curious about your impressions from this update


----------



## A7mad78

riddle said:


> i am still at work... but I'm curious about your impressions from this update



Even me still not update my lumagen plan for today later 


trinnov altitude32,Triad Gold system 9.4.6, Barco BalderCS, LumagenPro,kaleidescape strato& terra,
D-box,stewart ST100 165”, oppo203, APTV4k,QSC DCA amps


----------



## Mike_WI

*Harry* said:


> If I got it correctly, that just was a wish for the next todo.
> Or do we really have the implementation of that in 041120?


Sorry, I missed that. I think you are correct.


----------



## SJHT

Still need PIP/POP!  Although my need for watching live sports while gaming has diminished....


----------



## bearcat2002

I updated mine from work yesterday. It was a nice surprise and was ready for me when I got home. Great job Jim!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

bearcat2002 said:


> I updated mine from work yesterday. It was a nice surprise and was ready for me when I got home. Great job Jim!!!


How do you do that remotely?


----------



## hamster71

Vinturbo said:


> sharpness and noise reduction. We have been waiting for a long time!!!





Vinturbo said:


> no, it's a request for the next improvement.
> I'm sure Lumagen will do these too.


Personally I no longer believe in it too unfortunately ...

I have had the Lumagen Pro for almost four years and these settings have been constantly pushed back.

Having a 1080p projector, I hesitate to acquire a lumagen mini 3d to benefit from these settings that I found fantastic. I think to enter with the source in the Pro to carry out all the treatments then attack the mini 3d on which I will only use the sharpness and noise reduction settings ...


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> Just a heads up for folks about this new release. I've been helping Lumagen with this for a few weeks now. This is a nice improvement in terms of difficult scenes that present issues for a dynamic solution. BUT, with standard content you won't likely see much, if any difference between this release and what you had before. This release is more about how well the DTM handles difficult material with lots of changes that can throw off a dynamic solution and cause visible artifacts. It does ultimately improve the picture quite a bit with a lot of content, but again, this was focused more on extreme cases that certainly aren't the norm, which the Radiance already handles extremely well. There are other little fixes in the build as well (auto NLS fixes, test pattern fixes, other niggles).


can you provide specific scenes to test with?


----------



## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> can you provide specific scenes to test with?


I don't provide scenes with issues to people as I generally tell people not to look for problems and just sit back and enjoy. Once you start to see problems they are hard to ignore, so why go looking for them. It is HIGHLY unlikely you will see problems with the tone mapping with this build. BUT, it is a dynamic solution, which means that it can NEVER be perfect (otherwise it wouldn't need to be dynamic). But I think most will rarely if ever see anything tone map related, even with very difficult material for a dynamic solution, which is the goal.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Kris Deering said:


> I don't provide scenes with issues to people as I generally tell people not to look for problems and just sit back and enjoy. Once you start to see problems they are hard to ignore, so why go looking for them. It is HIGHLY unlikely you will see problems with the tone mapping with this build. BUT, it is a dynamic solution, which means that it can NEVER be perfect (otherwise it wouldn't need to be dynamic). But I think most will rarely if ever see anything tone map related, even with very difficult material for a dynamic solution, which is the goal.


Can someone tell me what NLS means (related to the latest firmware)?

Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> Can someone tell me what NLS means (related to the latest firmware)?
> 
> Thanks!


NLS is "non-linear stretch". It is used with scope screens for content that is a narrower aspect than the screen. When engaged it will non-linearly stretch/crop the image to fill the screen completely. This has always worked, but there was a bug when you engage the auto aspect function to use this automatically that would result in it not working right away after the selection was mode in the menu.


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> I don't provide scenes with issues to people as I generally tell people not to look for problems and just sit back and enjoy. Once you start to see problems they are hard to ignore, so why go looking for them. It is HIGHLY unlikely you will see problems with the tone mapping with this build. BUT, it is a dynamic solution, which means that it can NEVER be perfect (otherwise it wouldn't need to be dynamic). But I think most will rarely if ever see anything tone map related, even with very difficult material for a dynamic solution, which is the goal.


that's fine!


----------



## riddle

Hi, with thats new firmware all my problem with some movies are gone. Just tested UHD Maleficent: Mistress of Evil where i noticed before some problem with ADTM but now all is perfect with no issues.


thank you Jim


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> Hi, with thats new firmware all my problem with some movies are gone. Just tested UHD Maleficent: Mistress of Evil where i noticed before some problem with ADTM but now all is perfect with no issues.
> 
> 
> thank you Jim


Glad to hear this resolved those issues! Just want to reiterate, this can never be perfect for all scenes as it is dynamic, BUT, please report issues you guys see to [email protected] so they can take a look and possibly resolve them. Lumagen certainly can't look at every piece of content out there, so the more people that see a clear issue with DTM and report it, the better chance that these issues will rarely, if ever, pop up!


----------



## bearcat2002

audioguy said:


> How do you do that remotely?


I use the Harmony app to turn on the system. Then use Jump Desktop to connect to the server computer which has the USB from the Radiance connected to it. Easy Peasy.


----------



## riddle

Kris Deering said:


> Glad to hear this resolved those issues! Just want to reiterate, this can never be perfect for all scenes as it is dynamic, BUT, please report issues you guys see to [email protected] so they can take a look and possibly resolve them. Lumagen certainly can't look at every piece of content out there, so the more people that see a clear issue with DTM and report it, the better chance that these issues will rarely, if ever, pop up!



Hi, yes thats i know and because this i am try always send emal at lumagen support if i found some issues with info where and when.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I don't provide scenes with issues to people as I generally tell people not to look for problems and just sit back and enjoy. Once you start to see problems they are hard to ignore, so why go looking for them.


On one hand, I sympathise with this - having lived through DVD "artefact hell" where I could barely watch a film for artefact distractions I get the "once you see it, you can't unsee it" argument, however the reason many of us are here is to deepen our knowledge of AV stuff and to help look for problems so they can be addressed, and so sharing things like test scenes is generally a useful thing... Others may then spot similar issues on discs that you/Lumagen don't own, for instance, and can flag them up for attention. And then we all benefit from futher improvements...


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't provide scenes with issues to people as I generally tell people not to look for problems and just sit back and enjoy. Once you start to see problems they are hard to ignore, so why go looking for them.
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, I sympathise with this - having lived through DVD "artefact hell" where I could barely watch a film for artefact distractions I get the "once you see it, you can't unsee it" argument, however the reason many of us are here is to deepen our knowledge of AV stuff and to help look for problems so they can be addressed, and so sharing things like test scenes is generally a useful thing... Others may then spot similar issues on discs that you/Lumagen don't own, for instance, and can flag them up for attention. And then we all benefit from futher improvements...
Click to expand...

I can see where you are going with this but honestly, if the problems are bad enough to warrant improvement, people will see them without the need for pointing them out. Think of DTM like a dynamic contrast system. We all know there are artifacts associated with those types of systems, but we rarely see issues bad enough that we’d feel the need to report them to a vendor for evaluation. In the case of DTM, I’d say most would see artifacts with a dynamic iris or contrast system before they’d see one with DTM with 99% or more of content. But if something really caught your eye and proved to be based on DTM, you have an avenue to report it. If everyone is over analyzing everything they watch and reporting every little blip then it makes it much harder for Lumagen to use their time on other things that need attention that they are trying to work on because they are inundated with reports for artifacts that most people would never see unless someone pointed them out. I’d rather they spend their time working on some other areas that need addressing and only worry about obvious artifacts from DTM that are bad enough that they easily call attention to themselves. At this point those should be extremely rare.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I’d rather they spend their time working on some other areas that need addressing and only worry about obvious artifacts from DTM that are bad enough that they easily call attention to themselves. At this point those should be extremely rare.


Fair enough.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Fair enough.


Don't get me wrong, if Lumagen had unlimited resources I would love for them to just continually refine the DTM. But that just isn't the reality and I feel the more they try to tweak the most obscure tiny issues, the more other areas that could benefit from improvements that are in the works would go by the wayside. I'm sure down the road when those things are done, more refinement could be made to DTM.


----------



## riddle

*new update:*


041220- _Posted 042220_ Small improvement for DTM issue. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at  _   [email protected]_ .
_Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware_
_
_
_http://lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro041220.zip_*
*


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> Don't get me wrong, if Lumagen had unlimited resources I would love for them to just continually refine the DTM. But that just isn't the reality and I feel the more they try to tweak the most obscure tiny issues, the more other areas that could benefit from improvements that are in the works would go by the wayside. I'm sure down the road when those things are done, more refinement could be made to DTM.


Kris,
Is that just me.... the sync time is now lighting fast - when I switch sources (Sony VW5000 - Trinnov Altitude 32) - various sources appear as fast as on my OLED TV.
All the light pumping when switching sources is gone.
Very pleasant experience ..... makes Lumagen feel more solid and stable.
I did see some stutters in a movie I watched (Yesterday) using my Sony 1000ES UHD BD Player.
Others in this forum with my equipment (and I know there are a few) can experiment and comment.
Ash


----------



## thebland

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris,
> Is that just me.... the sync time is now lighting fast - when I switch sources (Sony VW5000 - Trinnov Altitude 32) - various sources appear as fast as on my OLED TV.
> All the light pumping when switching sources is gone.
> Very pleasant experience ..... makes Lumagen feel more solid and stable.
> I did see some stutters in a movie I watched (Yesterday) using my Sony 1000ES UHD BD Player.
> Others in this forum with my equipment (and I know there are a few) can experiment and comment.
> Ash


Ash! 

I'm going to update... It's been a while - are there any settings that need to be redone after or just update and watch away!?


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> Ash!
> 
> I'm going to update... It's been a while - are there any settings that need to be redone after or just update and watch away!?


You should be fine. This update doesn't have anything that would change suggested settings or a calibration.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris,
> Is that just me.... the sync time is now lighting fast - when I switch sources (Sony VW5000 - Trinnov Altitude 32) - various sources appear as fast as on my OLED TV.
> All the light pumping when switching sources is gone.
> Very pleasant experience ..... makes Lumagen feel more solid and stable.
> I did see some stutters in a movie I watched (Yesterday) using my Sony 1000ES UHD BD Player.
> Others in this forum with my equipment (and I know there are a few) can experiment and comment.
> Ash


Hmm. Not aware of anything that would change switching speed, but glad to hear!


----------



## Ash Sharma

thebland said:


> Ash!
> 
> I'm going to update... It's been a while - are there any settings that need to be redone after or just update and watch away!?


Jeff,
Hope you are doing well... what a difference two months make - when I visited you late February, Detroit was booming and now...
No changes to be done in your settings - that is my understanding.
The picture is looking fabulous, I think this update is the best update since the first DTM update.
Be safe and regards to family and Gus.
Ash


----------



## DenverMDM

Kris Deering said:


> Glad to hear this resolved those issues! Just want to reiterate, this can never be perfect for all scenes as it is dynamic, BUT, please report issues you guys see to [email protected] so they can take a look and possibly resolve them. Lumagen certainly can't look at every piece of content out there, so the more people that see a clear issue with DTM and report it, the better chance that these issues will rarely, if ever, pop up!


Update looks great. The problem scenes in Hacksaw Ridge Chapter 10 where explosions and muzzle flash abruptly force dynamic changes are now gone. Thanks all for constantly improving our devices!


----------



## A7mad78

Made the update and looks great and satiable and some especially the second one more enjoyment this weekend and hope every thing is fine I was face too bright image in enter the storm scene when the thunder lights but with the second update looks more comfort to my eyes 

Thank you @jrp and also @Kris Deering and Patrick and all the people who works hard to bring this top quality product and service even as Ash mention the switch come more faster and until now zero hdmi handshake which i face a lot in the previous Update before the zone DTM


----------



## giomania

DenverMDM said:


> Update looks great. The problem scenes in Hacksaw Ridge Chapter 10 where explosions and muzzle flash abruptly force dynamic changes are now gone. Thanks all for constantly improving our devices!


I thought that explosion was here: Chapter 12 at 1:38:02?

Like @Kris Deering said, don't go look if you haven't seen it before. 

Mark


----------



## dgkula

Hey guys, did the most recent update yesterday and first time I got a checksum error wo reran per the instructions at a lower transfer rate and it succeeded. Watched some content and powered down the system. Turned everything on again just now and projector isn't receiving a signal from the lumagen. Pressing OK or menu displays nothing on the screen. Noncgange in anything since last night. Unplugged the HDMI cable from the lumagen into the roku and projector displays a signal.

Any thoughts? Rerun the update? Thx


----------



## dgkula

Just FYI rerunning the update with force option fixed it.


----------



## Ash Sharma

dgkula said:


> Hey guys, did the most recent update yesterday and first time I got a checksum error wo reran per the instructions at a lower transfer rate and it succeeded. Watched some content and powered down the system. Turned everything on again just now and projector isn't receiving a signal from the lumagen. Pressing OK or menu displays nothing on the screen. Noncgange in anything since last night. Unplugged the HDMI cable from the lumagen into the roku and projector displays a signal.
> 
> Any thoughts? Rerun the update? Thx


I had a similar issue in the last firmware update (not this) - it was my Audio Processor Trinnov Altitude 32 which needed a firmware update for its HDMI.
Once I updated the processor (was told it was a micro code issue of its HDMI) - it worked flawlessly.
My installer was super helpful and he told me first that HDMI cables are finicky and they need to be set in properly. So taking each one out and carefully resetting (so they don't get damaged) them is also something you could try.


----------



## Craig Peer

dgkula said:


> Just FYI rerunning the update with force option fixed it.


I've had to do that once in the past. Luckily it worked.


----------



## DenverMDM

giomania said:


> I thought that explosion was here: Chapter 12 at 1:38:02?
> 
> Like @Kris Deering said, don't go look if you haven't seen it before.
> 
> Mark


I never noticed that one but just checked it out. I think the reason that the whole assault in Chapters 10-12 bothered me was because of the dark, murky background and immediate flash on one part of the screen that immediately dimmed the picture. The Chapter 12 at 1:38:02 seems to be more of a very bright, whole screen "blowout" very similar to that Mad Max: Fury Road lightning storm scene that everyone used to point to. Anyway, it doesn't matter because even if was there before, it's gone now. And yes, Kris is right - don't go looking for thing to obsess over. Although, what else do I have to do right now?!


----------



## Ash Sharma

Once you go... "Fade To Black".... you don't go back.
Yesterday when watching Bad Boys for Life in K Escape - I realized complete fade to blacks are back with this Lumagen Update.
Very cool.... I missed them now that I can see them.


----------



## thrang

Ash Sharma said:


> Once you go... "Fade To Black".... you don't go back.
> Yesterday when watching Bad Boys for Life in K Escape - I realized complete fade to blacks are back with this Lumagen Update.
> Very cool.... I missed them now that I can see them.


Of all the improvements, I don’t think there’s a anything the firmware that will change a fade to black level. At that point, its the black level of your display and any processing. For example, if you have a Sony 5000, the last firmware made some some iris/black level improvements, which, if enabled, would completely choke down on the iris for a fade to black (though APL may be a bit darker in certain scenes when watching actual content). Is also possible (as I have) you’ve played with some settings over time and that’s set to Dynamic Iris Full or Limited...


----------



## Ash Sharma

thrang said:


> Of all the improvements, I don’t think there’s a anything the firmware that will change a fade to black level. At that point, its the black level of your display and any processing. For example, if you have a Sony 5000, the last firmware made some some iris/black level improvements, which, if enabled, would completely choke down on the iris for a fade to black (though APL may be a bit darker in certain scenes when watching actual content). Is also possible (as I have) you’ve played with some settings over time and that’s set to Dynamic Iris Full or Limited...


I can only post what I see in my setup and agree with you that this maybe just in my setup.
Projector is Sony VW5000 Dynamic IRIS is fully enabled
Prior to this firmware - I used to notice a lot of light pumping (flicker say when changing sources or when blank scene changes happened for example during credits and fade to black scenes).
Without making any changes to the projector settings after updating the firmware - I see complete fade to blacks.
Also as posted/agreed by Armand - in my setup also the source changes are rock solid and very quick (Kris Deering who calibrated my Video - in home - and is part of Lumagen DTM development posted that nothing that was done in this firmware was intended for faster HDMI Syncs or source changes).


----------



## Kurvenal

Ash Sharma said:


> I had a similar issue in the last firmware update (not this) - it was my Audio Processor Trinnov Altitude 32 which needed a firmware update for its HDMI.
> Once I updated the processor (was told it was a micro code issue of its HDMI) - it worked flawlessly.
> My installer was super helpful and he told me first that HDMI cables are finicky and they need to be set in properly. So taking each one out and carefully resetting (so they don't get damaged) them is also something you could try.


I also have a Lumagen Radiance Pro/Trinnov Altitude 32 combo setup that I am using with a Sony VW5000 projector. Trinnov just confirmed that I have the latest HDMI microcode. 

I was just mentioning to my integrator that Kaleidescape seems to be the only source that I can power on and reliably get a signal from the Lumagen to the projector. Other sources either take forever or will only get a signal from the Lumagen if I change to Kaleidescape and back. 

I will be working with my integrator next week to try to find a Crestron programming fix. He thinks it is a video sync issue, but if anyone has found a fix for this I would welcome your suggestions.


----------



## flyinrazrback

Hello all, looking at a 4242 and wondering if it would be worthwhile to add to my system? I currently have a JVC NX7 which I think does a pretty good job at HDR tone mapping with the new update. I also just upgraded to a Paladin DCR lens with my 2:40 screen so I do not really need any work filling the screen especially since my 16:9 content is limited and do not mind switching through the modes in the JVC to watch 16:9 content. Most of my content is 4K and BD physical media so is would this really be a worthwhile investment? Guess I am trying to figure out what benefit I may see considering the very steep price to add it.


----------



## thebland

Kurvenal said:


> I also have a Lumagen Radiance Pro/Trinnov Altitude 32 combo setup that I am using with a Sony VW5000 projector. Trinnov just confirmed that I have the latest HDMI microcode.
> 
> I was just mentioning to my integrator that Kaleidescape seems to be the only source that I can power on and reliably get a signal from the Lumagen to the projector. Other sources either take forever or will only get a signal from the Lumagen if I change to Kaleidescape and back.
> 
> I will be working with my integrator next week to try to find a Crestron programming fix. He thinks it is a video sync issue, but if anyone has found a fix for this I would welcome your suggestions.


Hi. 

Has this update helped or hurt this behavior (or no effect). 

Who’s doing your Crestron? Ash and I have similar setups to you... and Crestron. And which Lumagen model?

Thanks!


----------



## westmd

Is there any ‘Passthrough’ mode on the Lumagen that a signale goes untouched into the output?


----------



## A7mad78

Ash Sharma said:


> I can only post what I see in my setup and agree with you that this maybe just in my setup.
> Projector is Sony VW5000 Dynamic IRIS is fully enabled
> Prior to this firmware - I used to notice a lot of light pumping (flicker say when changing sources or when blank scene changes happened for example during credits and fade to black scenes).
> Without making any changes to the projector settings after updating the firmware - I see complete fade to blacks.
> Also as posted/agreed by Armand - in my setup also the source changes are rock solid and very quick (Kris Deering who calibrated my Video - in home - and is part of Lumagen DTM development posted that nothing that was done in this firmware was intended for faster HDMI Syncs or source changes).



I just test with timer before i get 15 to 18 sec to switch now 6 to 9 sec and very seamless 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kurvenal

thebland said:


> Hi.
> 
> Has this update helped or hurt this behavior (or no effect).
> 
> Who’s doing your Crestron? Ash and I have similar setups to you... and Crestron. And which Lumagen model?
> 
> Thanks!


So far from what I can tell this update is not having any effect on the video sync issue, but have not tested it extensively yet. This is a new setup, so am still working out the kinks with my integrator, although I have been using the same RP 4446 for a while now.


----------



## SJHT

westmd said:


> Is there any ‘Passthrough’ mode on the Lumagen that a signale goes untouched into the output?


Not to my knowledge. I wish there was a true game mode that did something like this. I was playing a recent game that required hitting the controller buttons in a certain sequence. Was a bit tough because of the lag from the Lumagen and also my projector. Of course, it may just be me. Lol


----------



## loggeo

SJHT said:


> Not to my knowledge. I wish there was a true game mode that did something like this. I was playing a recent game that required hitting the controller buttons in a certain sequence. Was a bit tough because of the lag from the Lumagen and also my projector. Of course, it may just be me. Lol



True, although there is a cms passthrough (Cms off).


----------



## thebland

Hey. How do I make a back up? Couldn’t find on Tech Tips... Thanks!


----------



## appelz

thebland said:


> Hey. How do I make a back up? Couldn’t find on Tech Tips... Thanks!


http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities


----------



## Vinturbo

New FIRMWARE!

041620- Posted 042520 Better version of small DTM improvement in 041120 fixes several more challenging DTM cases

041120 or 041220?


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Not to my knowledge. I wish there was a true game mode that did something like this. I was playing a recent game that required hitting the controller buttons in a certain sequence. Was a bit tough because of the lag from the Lumagen and also my projector. Of course, it may just be me. Lol


We have plans for a Radiance Pro game mode and now that DTM has both zone-based analysis, and adaptation within scenes, we are starting to work on other features. Pipeline depth enhancement (entire pipe at 12 bits or more) is first, but we are considering bumping up Game Mode to a higher priority.

There is no straight pass-through mode in the Pro. So all video goes through the pipeline and frame buffer. The pipeline, while hundreds of clocks long, is effectively zero in human terms. What we will do for Game mode is reduce the time from storing in the frame buffer to reading from the frame buffer to a minimum. As these things go it sounds simple, but turns out it is quite a bit of work. By using the frame buffer, game mode can support aspect ratio control and other geometry features.


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> Hey. How do I make a back up? Couldn’t find on Tech Tips... Thanks!


Download the config reader from here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities

Make sure you download version 1.90 near the top of the page and not one of the older revisions.

It runs like the updater. You choose a BAUD rate and COM port. Then download the configuration from then Pro. Then you must Save the configuration to a file.

To upload, reverse the process.


----------



## jrp

Kurvenal said:


> I also have a Lumagen Radiance Pro/Trinnov Altitude 32 combo setup that I am using with a Sony VW5000 projector. Trinnov just confirmed that I have the latest HDMI microcode.
> 
> I was just mentioning to my integrator that Kaleidescape seems to be the only source that I can power on and reliably get a signal from the Lumagen to the projector. Other sources either take forever or will only get a signal from the Lumagen if I change to Kaleidescape and back.
> 
> I will be working with my integrator next week to try to find a Crestron programming fix. He thinks it is a video sync issue, but if anyone has found a fix for this I would welcome your suggestions.


You, or your integrator, can contact Lumagen support for assistance.

===

These power-on issues are often power-on order issues. We also see some streamers have three stats of being: On, Sleep, and Zombie. Zombie is too strong a word, and I say it tongue-in-cheek. However, for example, we have seen DirecTV, and AppleTV 4k, act differently going into the Pro if they go to sleep for a long period, such as overnight, versus a short period of time. Other devices, such as Bluray players and Roku, do not seem to have the third mode. We do not know exactly what is happening with the streamers that have the third mode, and it is likely an interaction between the streamer HDMI output chip/software, and the Radiance Pro input chip's internal processor.

We have added two feature options that appear to resolve this in the cases we know about. The first is you program the Pro internal power-up-input-select as something other than the input you normally select (Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select. Change both input selects). Then in that same menu enable the "delay select" which waits an additional 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the source is ready before activating the input at power on (only). Then the control system can select the input you want to view.

Finally we recommend you power on in the following order:

Projector/TV
Wait 5 to 10 seconds for the projector to start its HDMI interface
Radiance Pro 
Wait 5 seconds for the Pro to start its HDMI interfaces
Sources
Audio processor

Often no delays are needed. For example, my system turns everything on at the same time without delays. I do have it set to projector first, then the Pro, then the Trinnov, then sources, but as fast as it can send these commands. So, delays are not always necessary and depend on the specific equipment list.


----------



## jrp

Ash Sharma said:


> I can only post what I see in my setup and agree with you that this maybe just in my setup.
> Projector is Sony VW5000 Dynamic IRIS is fully enabled
> Prior to this firmware - I used to notice a lot of light pumping (flicker say when changing sources or when blank scene changes happened for example during credits and fade to black scenes).
> Without making any changes to the projector settings after updating the firmware - I see complete fade to blacks.
> Also as posted/agreed by Armand - in my setup also the source changes are rock solid and very quick (Kris Deering who calibrated my Video - in home - and is part of Lumagen DTM development posted that nothing that was done in this firmware was intended for faster HDMI Syncs or source changes).


Nothing in the new firmware was done to affect the input lock on of a projector. The jitter for this release is within 2 pS (about) of the 011120 release, at right about 90 pS. If jitter had gone up or down I could see it affecting lock on time, but it is the same. So we have no explanation for faster lock on. We have seen things like this happen doing an update. For example bumping a HDMI cable can affect that HDMI connection (usually in a negative way). I have done this to myself on a few occasions. Bumped a HDMI connection just enough that the connector came out a fraction and made the connect less reliable. Yours could be a case of the opposite happening. That is the connection got better from some movement.

In any case nothing in the new release *should have* changed lock on time. So can't explain why it got better, but happy for you that it did. Remember that a new FPGA might affect this if you update at a later date. We do try to keep jitter as low as possible for reasons I have posted before, but it can vary some.

==== 

[EDIT] I am adding a preamble to qualify the below response. It is possible the DTM is giving you a black that might be an LSB or so lower than before. This would not be intentional "make black darker," but as part of the tuning of the DTM. The difference would be very small, but might be enough to get to a level the iris choose to close more. Not sure, but thought I would mention it. Please consider this as you read the below comments:
[End of EDIT]

The iris is completely internal to the projector. So if it changed the only thing is how it is reacting to the specific scene levels. For most scenes this has not changed. the improvements in this release are for a few really tough scenes (although I have seen improvement in scene I did not expect the improvement).

I do not like dynamic iris' in general but specifically, for HDR it will interact with DTM and will likely degrade the image to some degree. DTM is designed for a constant 2.4 response in the projector/TV. I actually spent some time with our RS4500's dynamic laser mode, and tried to think of a way to have a mode that would make it help DTM and not hurt. I was not able to to figure a way and so leave it off for HDR (and actually SDR as well since I don't like their response changes).

I actually contacted JVC and asked for a way to send HDMI Info Frame commands to control the RS4500 laser. Could do awesome things for achievable contrast ratio for both SDR and HDR if they made a way, but got a definite "not going to happen" response. Didn't really expect a positive answer but had to take a shot.


----------



## jrp

A comment on @dgkula's question on what to do after a failed update.

If you start an update and it fails to complete, you should definitely switch to doing a "Boot Mode Update" for the next try. The reason is the failed update can corrupt internal code. The Boot Mode Update does a cold boot and has no other code running except the boot code updater. So as long as the boot-loader second of code is good it will work even if some code got corrupted. The boot-loader code is never changed during an update and so a failed load does not affect it.

We have had a few cases that once an update has failed neither a "Normal" or "Forced," update works and a Boot Mode Update was required to get the unit happy again.

The instructions for Boot Mode Update are in the Tech Tip that comes with each update. In short you set up just like a normal update. Then when ready, pull and restore power to the Pro. Then, do not turn the Pro on, but click Start for the update within 10 seconds of applying power to the Pro.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I do not like dynamic iris' in general but specifically, for HDR it will interact with DTM and *will likely degrade the image to some degree*. DTM is designed for a constant 2.4 response in the projector.


Jim, could you possibly be more specific as to what you're referring to by the image "will likely be degraded"? How would the end user likely perceive any deterioration secondary to D.I. utilization? Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Jim, could you possibly be more specific as to what you're referring to by the image "will likely be degraded"? How would the end user likely perceive any deterioration secondary to D.I. utilization? Thanks!


Not Jim but I imagine it has to do with the fact that any DI system is dynamically modulating gamma to work properly. Since the Lumagen DTM is applying itself ON TOP OF a fixed gamma (2.4), any manipulations of that gamma puts it in a state that the overlay doesn't know what it is on top of, and the results would be not as intended.


----------



## danam

jrp said:


> Download the config reader from here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities
> 
> Make sure you download version 1.90 near the top of the page and not one of the older revisions.
> 
> It runs like the updater. You choose a BAUD rate and COM port. Then download the configuration from then Pro. Then you must Save the configuration to a file.
> 
> To upload, reverse the process.


Hi everyone,

I'd like to add that unlike the update app, if you run Windows 10, the configuration utility requires to apply the "Windows 8 compatibility" (on certain computers, had to do it on my laptop but not on my desktop, weird ...) to work otherwise nothing will happen after double-clicking. 
Also don't forget to "Save Configuration to File" after "Download Configuration From Radiance".

I did a backup from my newly acquired Radiance Pro yesterday before applying the upgrade.


----------



## danam

Are there any settings we should adapt regarding DTM since the new firmware is available ?
Thanks by the way for keeping working on it !

I had a great opportunity to get a 4242 from a french ex-pro calibrator and he had the kindness to deliver it to my place to set it up and I'm very happy with the result !
I don't regret this upgrade on my setup, keep up the good job !!!!


----------



## riddle

danam said:


> Are there any settings we should adapt regarding DTM since the new firmware is available ?
> Thanks by the way for keeping working on it !
> 
> I had a great opportunity to get a 4242 from a french ex-pro calibrator and he had the kindness to deliver it to my place to set it up and I'm very happy with the result !
> I don't regret this upgrade on my setup, keep up the good job !!!!



Try contact *Kris Deering*he help me with my config and I think it had a big effect on the my overall impression...


----------



## ht guy

flyinrazrback said:


> Hello all, looking at a 4242 and wondering if it would be worthwhile to add to my system? I currently have a JVC NX7 which I think does a pretty good job at HDR tone mapping with the new update. I also just upgraded to a Paladin DCR lens with my 2:40 screen so I do not really need any work filling the screen especially since my 16:9 content is limited and do not mind switching through the modes in the JVC to watch 16:9 content. Most of my content is 4K and BD physical media so is would this really be a worthwhile investment? Guess I am trying to figure out what benefit I may see considering the very steep price to add it.


We also have an NX7 and DCR (recent upgrades) and got a 4242 at the same time.

Favorite features of the 4242, that we didn't have without it:

1) The picture. DTM is amazing in the 4242. For free, what is built into the NX7 is nice, but no comparison, imo.
2) Automatic aspect ratio switching. Like you, +90% of our viewing is 235:1, even so, this is so cool. No buttons to push, no more "Damn, we just stated a movie with company and now I have to go to menus to get to anamorphic mode." Even with no company, it's enjoyable to watch aspect be adjusted automatically. 

They aren't cheap, but the picture is simply stunning. Also, this isn't for everyone, but I also didn't buy the 4242 new. Got a very good deal on eBay from a guy in the UK.

The combination of the NX7, DCR & Lumagen gives a great "set it and forget it" experience.

Exactly what I wanted.

Only reaching for the remote for more volume. 100% satisfied.

If you want to check out our setup, it's in the link below.


----------



## westmd

ht guy said:


> We also have an NX7 and DCR (recent upgrades) and got a 4242 at the same time.
> 
> Favorite features of the 4242, that we didn't have without it:
> 
> 1) The picture. DTM is amazing in the 4242. For free, what is built into the NX7 is nice, but no comparison, imo.
> 2) Automatic aspect ratio switching. Like you, +90% of our viewing is 235:1, even so, this is so cool. No buttons to push, no more "Damn, we just stated a movie with company and now I have to go to menus to get to anamorphic mode." Even with no company, it's enjoyable to watch aspect be adjusted automatically.
> 
> They aren't cheap, but the picture is simply stunning. Also, this isn't for everyone, but I also didn't buy the 4242 new. Got a very good deal on eBay from a guy in the UK.
> 
> The combination of the NX7, DCR & Lumagen gives a great "set it and forget it" experience.
> 
> Exactly what I wanted.
> 
> Only reaching for the remote for more volume. 100% satisfied.
> 
> If you want to check out our setup, it's in the link below.



Got the same setup recently except that I have bought the NX9. Still have to assemble the DCR lens and looking really forward for it!


----------



## ht guy

westmd said:


> Got the same setup recently except that I have bought the NX9. Still have to assemble the DCR lens and looking really forward for it!


Nice! We got our first Panamorph lens ~10 years ago. No way were we going to up to the NX7 and not get the Paladin. You will be pleased.


----------



## westmd

I had the Paladin and the Lumagen already running for over a year with an X7000 and am very pleased with it. Just have to reinforce my ceiling holder before I attach the Paladin again as the NX9 is significantly heavier then the X7000!


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Not Jim but I imagine it has to do with the fact that any DI system is dynamically modulating gamma to work properly. Since the Lumagen DTM is applying itself ON TOP OF a fixed gamma (2.4), any manipulations of that gamma puts it in a state that the overlay doesn't know what it is on top of, and the results would be not as intended.



Hi Kris,

Would the same apply to the dynamic control set to full on the 885es? Also the recent 885es update which manipulates the iris?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

ht guy said:


> We also have an NX7 and DCR (recent upgrades) and got a 4242 at the same time.
> 
> Favorite features of the 4242, that we didn't have without it:
> 
> 1) The picture. DTM is amazing in the 4242. For free, what is built into the NX7 is nice, but no comparison, imo.
> 2) Automatic aspect ratio switching. Like you, +90% of our viewing is 235:1, even so, this is so cool. No buttons to push, no more "Damn, we just stated a movie with company and now I have to go to menus to get to anamorphic mode." Even with no company, it's enjoyable to watch aspect be adjusted automatically.
> 
> They aren't cheap, but the picture is simply stunning. Also, this isn't for everyone, but I also didn't buy the 4242 new. Got a very good deal on eBay from a guy in the UK.
> 
> The combination of the NX7, DCR & Lumagen gives a great "set it and forget it" experience.
> 
> Exactly what I wanted.
> 
> Only reaching for the remote for more volume. 100% satisfied.
> 
> If you want to check out our setup, it's in the link below.


Agree on all points with both the Lumagen and the DCR lens. I've been using both with my RS4500 for about 2 years now. Outstanding picture ! I love it.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Not Jim but I imagine it has to do with the fact that any DI system is dynamically modulating gamma to work properly. Since the Lumagen DTM is applying itself ON TOP OF a fixed gamma (2.4), any manipulations of that gamma puts it in a state that the overlay doesn't know what it is on top of, and the results would be not as intended.


Thank you for that information, Kris. Given that, I'm surprised that Craig Rounds provided my NX7 user HDR mode for the Radiance Pro with a 2.2 gamma (rather than 2.4, per your post) after his calibration. Since he had opted for a different gamma set point, would utilizing the D.I. still cause the same deterioration as a 2.4 gamma set-up because of further gamma manipulation by the D.I.?


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> Hi Kris,
> 
> Would the same apply to the dynamic control set to full on the 885es? Also the recent 885es update which manipulates the iris?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes. That is a dynamic contrast function, so it manipulates gamma to some degree. Remember with video everything has its trade offs. The gamma manipulation MAY OR MAY NOT cause visible issues, but without it your contrast may be poor enough that it bothers you. So it is simply a matter of what causes more issues in your enjoyment. 



docrog said:


> Thank you for that information, Kris. Given that, I'm surprised that Craig Rounds provided my NX7 user HDR mode for the Radiance Pro with a 2.2 gamma (rather than 2.4, per your post) after his calibration. Since he had opted for a different gamma set point, would utilizing the D.I. still cause the same deterioration as a 2.4 gamma set-up because of further gamma manipulation by the D.I.?


Craig knows what he's doing. If he selected a 2.2 gamma preset, that is because that one tracked the way he wanted for the calibration. It doesn't necessarily mean it was actually a 2.2. A DI will ALWAYS manipulate gamma to some degree. Whether it is enough to cause visual issues depends on how aggressive it is and how susceptible you are to noticing it. This has been true long before HDR and DTM was around.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> Yes. That is a dynamic contrast function, so it manipulates gamma to some degree. Remember with video everything has its trade offs. The gamma manipulation MAY OR MAY NOT cause visible issues, but without it your contrast may be poor enough that it bothers you. So it is simply a matter of what causes more issues in your enjoyment.
> 
> 
> I am loving the DI full on my Sony VW5000 - but will turn it off and compare, maybe using the Mad Max fury road storm scene - to each his own and if it ain't broke don't fix it.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Yes. That is a dynamic contrast function, so it manipulates gamma to some degree. Remember with video everything has its trade offs. The gamma manipulation MAY OR MAY NOT cause visible issues, but without it your contrast may be poor enough that it bothers you. So it is simply a matter of what causes more issues in your enjoyment.


I'm sure we're talking about the same setting on the 885ES, just want to be sure.

I have Dynamic Control set to Full. (this is the setting I was asking about)

I have Contrast Enhancer set to Off (always have; this was not the setting I was asking about).

Thanks.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Craig knows what he's doing. If he selected a 2.2 gamma preset, that is because that one tracked the way he wanted for the calibration. It doesn't necessarily mean it was actually a 2.2. A DI will ALWAYS manipulate gamma to some degree. Whether it is enough to cause visual issues depends on how aggressive it is and how susceptible you are to noticing it. This has been true long before HDR and DTM was around.


I don't seem to be susceptible to noticing visual issues with the D.I. on Auto 1, certainly never seeing the pumping associated with my prior projectors (through the RS500). I'll try to assess some HDR scenes which have rapid changes in brightness to blackness (etc.) with and without the NX7's D.I. enabled both through the Lumagen as well as with the Lumagen bypassed.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> I don't seem to be susceptible to noticing visual issues with the D.I. on Auto 1, certainly never seeing the pumping associated with my prior projectors (through the RS500). I'll try to assess some HDR scenes which have rapid changes in brightness to blackness (etc.) with and without the NX7's D.I. enabled both through the Lumagen as well as with the Lumagen bypassed.



I prefer the picture on my RS4500 with laser dimming on ( Mode 1 ). It is always about trade offs. But in my setup that looks best to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Again, there is nothing wrong with using a dynamic contrast system. It helps with perceived (and measured) contrast. There are always some minor trade offs, but most won't see them. I don't use it as I do evaluating so I don't want one dynamic system causing artifacts that I may accidentally attribute to the other. Plus I feel like my native contrast is fine for my viewing (I would ALWAYS love for it to be higher, but it is at an acceptable level).


----------



## sbquart

ht guy said:


> We also have an NX7 and DCR (recent upgrades) and got a 4242 at the same time.
> 
> Favorite features of the 4242, that we didn't have without it:
> 
> 1) The picture. DTM is amazing in the 4242. For free, what is built into the NX7 is nice, but no comparison, imo.
> 2) Automatic aspect ratio switching. Like you, +90% of our viewing is 235:1, even so, this is so cool. No buttons to push, no more "Damn, we just stated a movie with company and now I have to go to menus to get to anamorphic mode." Even with no company, it's enjoyable to watch aspect be adjusted automatically.
> 
> They aren't cheap, but the picture is simply stunning. Also, this isn't for everyone, but I also didn't buy the 4242 new. Got a very good deal on eBay from a guy in the UK.
> 
> The combination of the NX7, DCR & Lumagen gives a great "set it and forget it" experience.
> 
> Exactly what I wanted.
> 
> Only reaching for the remote for more volume. 100% satisfied.
> 
> If you want to check out our setup, it's in the link below.


I also have an NX7 and I'm using an older u480 fixed lens. I tried a DCR but my room was too shallow to accommodate it. Would I notice an image increase with the radiance pro doing the stretching with lens in place over JVC's stretching? Thanks for any insights.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Again, there is nothing wrong with using a dynamic contrast system. It helps with perceived (and measured) contrast. There are always some minor trade offs, but most won't see them. I don't use it as I do evaluating so I don't want one dynamic system causing artifacts that I may accidentally attribute to the other. Plus I feel like my native contrast is fine for my viewing (I would ALWAYS love for it to be higher, but it is at an acceptable level).


Sorry to ask this question, but does "dynamic contrast system" = "dynamic iris"?


----------



## ht guy

sbquart said:


> I also have an NX7 and I'm using an older u480 fixed lens. I tried a DCR but my room was too shallow to accommodate it. Would I notice an image increase with the radiance pro doing the stretching with lens in place over JVC's stretching? Thanks for any insights.


My logic was really simple. When Ken Whitcomb did the calibration on my Epson 6040, he said, "You know, this is the last projector you will be able to use this on - without loss of image quality."

I took his word for it, and sold the 480 when I got the NX7.

You might also consider the Paladin-C - the new compact lens made for these projectors (and a Sony) that has a shorter minimum throw.

Correction: (thanks Kris!) The C lens has a *longer* minimum throw.


----------



## sbquart

ht guy said:


> My logic was really simple. When Ken Whitcomb did the calibration on my Epson 6040, he said, "You know, this is the last projector you will be able to use this on - without loss of image quality."
> 
> I took his word for it, and sold the 480 when I got the NX7.
> 
> You might also consider the Paladin-C - the new compact lens made for these projectors (and a Sony) that has a shorter minimum throw.


Thanks for the tip. I'll look into the C lens. As far as the 480. Still looks detailed too me 😃


----------



## Kris Deering

sbquart said:


> I also have an NX7 and I'm using an older u480 fixed lens. I tried a DCR but my room was too shallow to accommodate it. Would I notice an image increase with the radiance pro doing the stretching with lens in place over JVC's stretching? Thanks for any insights.


Absolutely. This is probably my client's favorite feature. I set the Lumagen up to do proper aspect ratio for EVERY aspect between 4x3 and 2.40 automatically, whereas the JVC only does 16x9 and full scope and you have to manually select them each and every time.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Sorry to ask this question, but does "dynamic contrast system" = "dynamic iris"?


yes


----------



## Kris Deering

ht guy said:


> My logic was really simple. When Ken Whitcomb did the calibration on my Epson 6040, he said, "You know, this is the last projector you will be able to use this on - without loss of image quality."
> 
> I took his word for it, and sold the 480 when I got the NX7.
> 
> You might also consider the Paladin-C - the new compact lens made for these projectors (and a Sony) that has a shorter minimum throw.


Actually it is the opposite. The C-DCR requires a LONGER minimum throw (Panamorph specs it at 1.7x, but has said that the bigger lens projectors like the 4500/3000 can probably do 1.6x) than the standard DCR lens. I would also only recommend the C lens if you know you will NEVER change your projector or throw again as it doesn't leave a lot of latitude for different installs.


----------



## Kris Deering

sbquart said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'll look into the C lens. As far as the 480. Still looks detailed too me 😃


See my post above about the C lens


----------



## sbquart

Kris Deering said:


> See my post above about the C lens


Looks like I'm still stuck with the 480. Can you recommend something that'll be better than what I have that will work with a shorter throw?


----------



## Kris Deering

sbquart said:


> Kris Deering said:
> 
> 
> 
> See my post above about the C lens
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like I'm still stuck with the 480. Can you recommend something that'll be better than what I have that will work with a shorter throw?
Click to expand...

 sent a pm


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Again, there is nothing wrong with using a dynamic contrast system. It helps with perceived (and measured) contrast. There are always some minor trade offs, but most won't see them. I don't use it as I do evaluating so I don't want one dynamic system causing artifacts that I may accidentally attribute to the other. Plus I feel like my native contrast is fine for my viewing (I would ALWAYS love for it to be higher, but it is at an acceptable level).


Kris, I'm trying very hard to understand the apparent contradiction here: @jrp and you both having stated that gamma manipulation which occurs from a dynamic iris will likely cause video deterioration because the Lumagen is meant to be applied to a fixed 2.4 gamma profile *versus* your statement (above) that "there is nothing wrong with using a dynamic system". I'm honestly not trying to nitpick, but I assume it is true that all of us following this forum are trying to get the absolute best viewing experience within the limitations of our various home theaters. I have used Auto 1 which benefits contrast without (to my eyes) degradation, but, at the same time, I don't want to defeat whatever goal Lumagen has set for optimal DTM management. Any further thoughts from you or @jrp would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## jrp

docrog:

Kris' and I agree on both points:

- Radiance Pro DTM is designed with a fixed 2.4 Gamma in mind. So we agree enabling a dynamic iris/laser may degrade the overall image quality. By this I mean the brightness.

- You can certainly enable dynamic iris/laser, and you may in fact find a combination of DTM settings and dynamic iris/laser settings you like. In this case enjoy what you like.

As I mentioned, I hoped I could use the RS4500 dynamic laser with DTM and in some cases I liked the apparent improvement in image contrast. However, in the end I decided it was making images darker then they should be with dynamic laser on. So, I did not find a combination I liked and I tried reasonably hard to to do so. However, that does not mean you won't. So experiment away and if you like DTM plus dynamic iris/laser more power to you.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Sorry to ask this question, but does "dynamic contrast system" = "dynamic iris"?


Dynamic Contrast can be digital manipulation only, or it can include a dynamic iris/laser are part of its function. 

Said differently a dynamic iris/laser is a dynamic contrast function, but a dynamic contrast function does not require a dynamic iris/laser.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> - Radiance Pro DTM is designed with a fixed 2.4 Gamma in mind.


You may have read an earlier post of mine (in response to one by Kris) in which I mentioned that Craig Rounds had set up a BT.2020 user mode for my NX7 in conjunction with my Radiance Pro which specified a gamma of 2.2 as part of his calibration. Does that different gamma in any way conflict with the fact that you've designed the Radiance Pro specifically for DTM with a 2.4 gamma profile?


----------



## jrp

@docrog posted:

You may have read an earlier post of mine (in response to one by Kris) in which I mentioned that Craig Rounds had set up a BT.2020 user mode for my NX7 in conjunction with my Radiance Pro which specified a gamma of 2.2 as part of his calibration. Does that different gamma in any way conflict with the fact that you've designed the Radiance Pro specifically for DTM with a 2.4 gamma profile?

End post.
=================================== 

Do you mean the setting says 2.2?

Often the setting in projectors and TVs do not match the actual Gamma. For example, I set the Gamma on our RS4500 to 2.2 because this measures closest to an actual 2.4 Gamma using our CR-100 color probe.

I doubt Craig "targeted" 2.2 Gamma for the calibration since he knows to target 2.4. Likely he set the control to 2.2 as a close approximation of 2.4.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> You may have read an earlier post of mine (in response to one by Kris) in which I mentioned that Craig Rounds had set up a BT.2020 user mode for my NX7 in conjunction with my Radiance Pro which specified a gamma of 2.2 as part of his calibration. Does that different gamma in any way conflict with the fact that you've designed the Radiance Pro specifically for DTM with a 2.4 gamma profile?


If your calibration is 3DLUT based to an extent it doesn't matter what the projector is set to. The 1D/3D LUT should be setup to provide the base 2.4 gamma.

Without a true 2.4 as a base gamma the Radiance DTM controls won't work like they work for everyone who has 2.4 gamma, so you'd be on your own in terms of the understanding of what controls give what kind of results. 

The complications with DI systems is that they behave differently depending on how much light is on the screen. If you have meters and gear you can try measuring the gamma of your system with a different sized window to see this in action. On my X7900 a 0.5% window size vs a 2.0% vs a 10% window size shows this difference in gamma very clearly. 

This gives rise to a few issues with DI:
1) You can't achieve reference calibration for SDR or a reference base gamma for tone mapping because of this adjustment. It might be right at one patch size and not at another, or might not be measurably right with any patch size but might seem to subjectively work better for you. The benefit is some better blacks in some scenes.
2) The DI in motion can be noticed by some as either image pumping or highlight burn or other such artifacts. 
3) Given that both DTM and DI are operating in a similar area of the image attributes (the luminance curve) it stands to reason that it is possible the two end either counteracting or doubling up on adjustment depending on the exact content of the scene.

The first point arguably not such an issue for DTM as though you won't be seeing the same DTM result isn't one "right" answer for the best DTM result. If you get to a set of settings that give the results you like, and you don't notice issues from 2) or 3), then enjoy. 

For my own part I can't use the DI on my X7900 as it is way too noticeable in operation (fail of 2) above), but I'm the kind of person who is cursed with noticing stuff that (obviously to me) wasn't in the original content but many folk it would wash over. Others don't notice these things so much and may enjoy the DI effect.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> @docrogDo you mean the setting says 2.2? Often the setting in projectors and TVs do not match the actual Gamma. For example, I set the Gamma on our RS4500 to 2.2 because this measures closest to an actual 2.4 Gamma using our CR-100 color probe. I doubt Craig "targeted" 2.2 Gamma for the calibration since he knows to target 2.4. Likely he set the control to 2.2 as a close approximation of 2.4.


Thanks for your response, Jim, but this is all quite mystifying to me: a gamma setting (according to the PJ) of 2.2 may *not* actually be 2.2, but actually the closest to 2.4 based on 3D LUT calibration. BTW, I have no doubt that Craig knew how to best optimize my Radiance Pro, since you were the one who recommended him to me because of his expertise.


----------



## jqmn

Think of the projector gamma menu choice "2.2" as a label only. The underlying values associated with that label, on many projectors, can be altered when the calibration is done or if you manipulate them yourself. This is what is meant by having the Gamma 2.2 menu choice set to an actual gamma curve of 2.4. 2.2 label; 2.4 values.



docrog said:


> Thanks for your response, Jim, but this is all quite mystifying to me: a gamma setting (according to the PJ) of 2.2 may *not* actually be 2.2, but actually the closest to 2.4 based on 3D LUT calibration. BTW, I have no doubt that Craig knew how to best optimize my Radiance Pro, since you were the one who recommended him to me because of his expertise.


----------



## jqmn

Spot on. I can clearly see my DD system (laser and iris) changes gamma up through the midtones (not pumping) in a negative way (if I look for it) relative to a non-DD image. For example, at the low end I get a much better black level with DD but the differentiation from 1% - 3% isn't as good as with a fixed curve (that has a more than 3x greater black level). I do use DD though because the higher non-DD black level is much more distracting than some slight low-end crush.



bobof said:


> This gives rise to a few issues with DI:
> 1) You can't achieve reference calibration for SDR or a reference base gamma for tone mapping because of this adjustment. It might be right at one patch size and not at another, or might not be measurably right with any patch size but might seem to subjectively work better for you. The benefit is some better blacks in some scenes.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks for your response, Jim, but this is all quite mystifying to me: a gamma setting (according to the PJ) of 2.2 may *not* actually be 2.2, but actually the closest to 2.4 based on 3D LUT calibration. BTW, I have no doubt that Craig knew how to best optimize my Radiance Pro, since you were the one who recommended him to me because of his expertise.


Craig is an excellent calibrator and one of the most knowledgeable out there when it comes to working with the Lumagen. The point of paying a professional like Craig is not only to get the best picture possible, but to know that YOU don't have to worry about it anymore and just sit back and enjoy. Your posts make it feel like you are obsessing about details you don't understand rather than just enjoying the product and the results. Have faith in your investment in Craig and just let it go. If he optimized your video, you aren't going to improve it on your own, so just sit back and enjoy!


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Craig is an excellent calibrator and one of the most knowledgeable out there when it comes to working with the Lumagen. The point of paying a professional like Craig is not only to get the best picture possible, but to know that YOU don't have to worry about it anymore and just sit back and enjoy. Your posts make it feel like you are obsessing about details you don't understand rather than just enjoying the product and the results. Have faith in your investment in Craig and just let it go. If he optimized your video, you aren't going to improve it on your own, so just sit back and enjoy!


Kris, I'm very happy with Craig's calibration & set-up for my Lumagen, so that's not at all why I asked my questions. I have total confidence in the professional quality of his work and have _never_ questioned the service that he provided. I've only been trying to understand the 2 concepts which have been recently been posted here: 1. how a stated optimal Lumagen 2.4 gamma related to the 2.2 gamma which was displayed on the PJ for Craig's user HDR mode. 2. whether enabling of the D.I. (and subsequent gamma manipulation) in any way defeated that optimal calibration (which was performed with the D.I. disabled). The fact that I had been in the dark with regards to these 2 issues doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying my video setup, only that I'd very much like to better understand the these concepts. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Also, many thanks to @bobof for his recent post referencing my previous questions.


----------



## thrang

docrog said:


> Kris, I'm very happy with Craig's calibration & set-up for my Lumagen, so that's not at all why I asked my questions. I have total confidence in the professional quality of his work and have _never_ questioned the service that he provided. I've only been trying to understand the 2 concepts which have been recently been posted here: 1. how a stated optimal Lumagen 2.4 gamma related to the 2.2 gamma which was displayed on the PJ for Craig's user HDR mode. 2. whether enabling of the D.I. (and subsequent gamma manipulation) in any way defeated that optimal calibration (which was performed with the D.I. disabled). The fact that I had been in the dark with regards to these 2 issues doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying my video setup, only that I'd very much like to better understand the these concepts. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Also, many thanks to @bobof for his recent post referencing my previous questions.


Likely the 2.2 default tracked better than the 2.4 default as the basis for the Radiance 2.4 gamma adjustments.

Regarding DTM and DI: DTM expects an unchanging gamma. DI changes gamma. Maybe you will prefer it, maybe you won't.

Did you ask Craig?


----------



## jrp

docrog:

I will take one final crack at helping on your question about selected versus final Gamma.

The projector setting for Gamma =2.2 is a "coarse starting point" and actually has very little to do with the achieved Gamma after calibration. The advantage of selecting a Gamma close to your target Gamma (in this case 2.4 if the projector has an accurate Gamma control) is that it means less error needs to be fixed by the 1D/3D LUT calibration. Less error in the initial coarse Gamma means less correction and a "cleaner" calibration.

I tell people calibration is like pulling on rubber bands. The less you pull the less likely they will break. Breaking in the case of calibration can lead to contouring or color error for specific levels. What I am sure happened is Craig did an initial assessment of projector Gamma and found that the "setting" of 2.2 was actually the closest the projector "achieving" a 2.4 Gamma, but it really doesn't matter. In the end, after calibration, the achieved Gamma will be 2.4 (or as close as can be achieved).

So, the net-net result is that after calibration the Gamma will be the target 2.4 even (as best achievable) if one selected 2.0 or if one selected 2.6 in the projector. The calibration changes levels so they match the target. it's just that one does not want to pull on the "rubber bands of calibration control" any harder than necessary.

I think it's time to move on, even if this is still not clear. As Kris says, sit back and enjoy your amazing image quality.


----------



## mandragora

*Default setting fro new calibration ...*

Hello All, 

I'll be doing a brand new calibration on my new room, @Gordon Fraser did the last one on my old cinema room something like an year ago.

the room now is different, the screen is different ... the lamp aged (~2500hours) and I'll be doing the calibration myself this time (Lightspace+DisplayPro3+i1Pro spectro).

I was wondering if someone can let me know the default settings on the Radiance Pro for DTM that I should use for a new calibration.

Any help would be very much appreciated 

thanks for the help, 

Ben


----------



## Kurvenal

jrp said:


> You, or your integrator, can contact Lumagen support for assistance.
> 
> ===
> 
> These power-on issues are often power-on order issues. We also see some streamers have three stats of being: On, Sleep, and Zombie. Zombie is too strong a word, and I say it tongue-in-cheek. However, for example, we have seen DirecTV, and AppleTV 4k, act differently going into the Pro if they go to sleep for a long period, such as overnight, versus a short period of time. Other devices, such as Bluray players and Roku, do not seem to have the third mode. We do not know exactly what is happening with the streamers that have the third mode, and it is likely an interaction between the streamer HDMI output chip/software, and the Radiance Pro input chip's internal processor.
> 
> We have added two feature options that appear to resolve this in the cases we know about. The first is you program the Pro internal power-up-input-select as something other than the input you normally select (Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select. Change both input selects). Then in that same menu enable the "delay select" which waits an additional 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the source is ready before activating the input at power on (only). Then the control system can select the input you want to view.
> 
> Finally we recommend you power on in the following order:
> 
> Projector/TV
> Wait 5 to 10 seconds for the projector to start its HDMI interface
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for the Pro to start its HDMI interfaces
> Sources
> Audio processor
> 
> Often no delays are needed. For example, my system turns everything on at the same time without delays. I do have it set to projector first, then the Pro, then the Trinnov, then sources, but as fast as it can send these commands. So, delays are not always necessary and depend on the specific equipment list.


Jim,

As per your instructions, I worked remotely with my integrator to use the Input Select option to set power-up-input-select to an unused 9GHZ input, and we enabled Delay Select as well. This solved the problem without needing to add any more delays. I am now getting picture up with every source as soon as the projector kicks in. Much better! Many thanks.


----------



## riddle

mandragora said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I'll be doing a brand new calibration on my new room, @*Gordon Fraser* did the last one on my old cinema room something like an year ago.
> 
> the room now is different, the screen is different ... the lamp aged (~2500hours) and I'll be doing the calibration myself this time (Lightspace+DisplayPro3+i1Pro spectro).
> 
> I was wondering if someone can let me know the default settings on the Radiance Pro for DTM that I should use for a new calibration.
> 
> Any help would be very much appreciated
> 
> thanks for the help,
> 
> Ben



Hi, whats projector you will calibrate it with Lumagen Radiance PRO?


----------



## estabanj

docrog said:


> jrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> - Radiance Pro DTM is designed with a fixed 2.4 Gamma in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> You may have read an earlier post of mine (in response to one by Kris) in which I mentioned that Craig Rounds had set up a BT.2020 user mode for my NX7 in conjunction with my Radiance Pro which specified a gamma of 2.2 as part of his calibration. Does that different gamma in any way conflict with the fact that you've designed the Radiance Pro specifically for DTM with a 2.4 gamma profile?
Click to expand...

What I believe Kris was saying is that a setting of 2.2 could in fact be giving you an actual gamma of close to 2.4. It’s the actual gamma of the system that counts. Eg on my NX7 setting it to 2.3 gets it closest to 2.4 and then I set the target for the Lumagen autoCal to 2.4 which gets me to a system result Lumagen + NX7 of 2.4 even though my NX7 is not set to 2.4. I would expect an experienced calibrator knows how to get the best “system” result out off a set of components. Hope that helps. Stephen


----------



## mandragora

riddle said:


> Hi, whats projector you will calibrate it with Lumagen Radiance PRO?


Hello it's Sony VW520ES https://pro.sony/en_EE/products/4k-home-cinema-projectors/vpl-vw520es.
It's one of SOny first's 4k projectors.

thanks for the help!

Ben


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> Never use less than a 2 meter passive HDMI cable. This is due to the HDMI equalization making the signal too hot with shorter (i.e. less attenuation) HDMI cables. Shorter cables can work, but I have hundreds of examples where they didn't work reliably over time and going to a 2 meter or 3 meter passive cable resolved the issue.





jrp said:


> For short distances I believe that an excellent 18GHz certified wired cable is the right way to get HDMI from sources to the Radiance Pro and from the Radiance Pro to the audio processor. IMO there is no advantage using a fiber cable for short runs, and in fact many fiber cables can increase the jitter in the process of converting the HDMI electrical signal to fiber and back. I recommend Tributaries 18 GHz certified UHDP cables for these 2 to 3 meter runs.


Thanks to help from Jim, I finally solved my drop out issue with the 18G output when my Anthem MRX1120 was in the chain:

Roku Ultra -> Lumagen -> Anthem -> RuiPro -> JVC RS3000

The 9G outputs were fine, and 18G direct to the JVC was also fine. So too 18G with the Lumagen removed from the chain. However, 18G video or audio only from the Lumagen to the Anthem would result in it losing lock on the signal occasionally, resulting in audio/video drop outs. Oddly, I never saw the problem with the Oppo 203 as the source, just with the Roku and DirecTV box.

I had switched from a 2m Monoprice 4k premium certified cable between the Lumagen and Anthem to the Tributaries 2m, but still the problem remained. What fixed it was changing to the 6m Monoprice (still passive 4k premium certified) I had on hand! The Anthem was being overloaded and needed the cable loss


----------



## riddle

mandragora said:


> Hello it's Sony VW520ES https://pro.sony/en_EE/products/4k-home-cinema-projectors/vpl-vw520es.
> It's one of SOny first's 4k projectors.
> 
> thanks for the help!
> 
> Ben



I think you have all equipment what you will need. The new software color space should come out now in beta so i think its bether wait and start with the new one.


https://www.lightillusion.com/lumagen_manual.html


----------



## mandragora

riddle said:


> I think you have all equipment what you will need. The new software color space should come out now in beta so i think its bether wait and start with the new one.
> 
> 
> https://www.lightillusion.com/lumagen_manual.html


Hello Riddle, 

my question wasn't about software or equipment  I'm after default setting I should use on the Lumagen especially about DTM.
so many changes there since last time I did a calibration (about an year ago)

thanks for the help, 

Ben


----------



## Roosvelt

mandragora said:


> Hello Riddle,
> 
> my question wasn't about software or equipment  I'm after default setting I should use on the Lumagen especially about DTM.
> so many changes there since last time I did a calibration (about an year ago)
> 
> thanks for the help,
> 
> Ben



Hi mandragora, I’ve sent you a pm yesterday


----------



## riddle

mandragora said:


> Hello Riddle,
> 
> my question wasn't about software or equipment  I'm after default setting I should use on the Lumagen especially about DTM.
> so many changes there since last time I did a calibration (about an year ago)
> 
> thanks for the help,
> 
> Ben



Yes, there are some changes or recommendations. Kris helped me a lot with this and optimilized my devices for input. Maybe it just wants to go through the DTM settings and looks what you have there.


----------



## mandragora

riddle said:


> Yes, there are some changes or recommendations. Kris helped me a lot with this and optimilized my devices for input. Maybe it just wants to go through the DTM settings and looks what you have there.


I understand thanks.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

mandragora:: You do not calibrate with any HDR content or any HDR DTM settings in use. I will send you email instructions.


----------



## mandragora

Gordon Fraser said:


> mandragora:: You do not calibrate with any HDR content or any HDR DTM settings in use. I will send you email instructions.


Hey Gordon thanks a lot for this !


----------



## EVH78

New update online!

Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> New update online!
> 
> Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.


Cool. Does any cal software support this yet @jrp ?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 042120*



EVH78 said:


> New update online!
> 
> Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.


http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*042120*
- Posted 050120 
Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under *Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points* ) as well as with rs232 commands. 
See updated Tech Tip 11 for the rs232 commands. 
Added external trigger setting for input aspect > 1.95 (only available on units with this option installed). 
Small improvement for interlaced auto aspect detection. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *042120*
> - Posted 050120
> Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under *Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points* ) as well as with rs232 commands.
> See updated Tech Tip 11 for the rs232 commands.
> Added external trigger setting for input aspect > 1.95 (only available on units with this option installed).
> Small improvement for interlaced auto aspect detection.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware



Dose this update mean if we want the benefit of the pipeline to recalibrate ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thrang

A7mad78 said:


> Dose this update mean if we want the benefit of the pipeline to recalibrate ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe yes


----------



## A7mad78

thrang said:


> I believe yes



Thx so wait till the pandemic Go 

Till that time many thing will add so do it once 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

thrang said:


> I believe yes


It's probably more an "it depends".
Lightspace and Colourspace both allow you to re-generate and re-upload LUTs from an existing profile.
If (I've asked the question of Light Illusion) they are supporting the extra digit then you should be able to just re-upload.
There is an additional complication - this probably only works for combined 3D+1D LUT upload, which up until recently was the only upload option for LS. If you've split your calibration for maximum accuracy and done the 1DLUT first and then the 3DLUT, you'd probably want to at least re-do the 3DLUT portion of your calibration. You could probably re-upload the existing 1D portion though - but that's the quickest bit to do generally.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> You, or your integrator, can contact Lumagen support for assistance.
> 
> ===
> 
> These power-on issues are often power-on order issues. We also see some streamers have three stats of being: On, Sleep, and Zombie. Zombie is too strong a word, and I say it tongue-in-cheek. However, for example, we have seen DirecTV, and AppleTV 4k, act differently going into the Pro if they go to sleep for a long period, such as overnight, versus a short period of time. Other devices, such as Bluray players and Roku, do not seem to have the third mode. We do not know exactly what is happening with the streamers that have the third mode, and it is likely an interaction between the streamer HDMI output chip/software, and the Radiance Pro input chip's internal processor.
> 
> We have added two feature options that appear to resolve this in the cases we know about. The first is you program the Pro internal power-up-input-select as something other than the input you normally select (Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select. Change both input selects). Then in that same menu enable the "delay select" which waits an additional 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the source is ready before activating the input at power on (only). Then the control system can select the input you want to view.
> 
> Finally we recommend you power on in the following order:
> 
> Projector/TV
> Wait 5 to 10 seconds for the projector to start its HDMI interface
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for the Pro to start its HDMI interfaces
> Sources
> Audio processor
> 
> Often no delays are needed. For example, my system turns everything on at the same time without delays. I do have it set to projector first, then the Pro, then the Trinnov, then sources, but as fast as it can send these commands. So, delays are not always necessary and depend on the specific equipment list.


That post is gold. I was having a lot of trouble when turning everything on. Not infrequently I would have to restart several times till things worked properly. I have a smart remote and since I reprogrammed the starting sequence according to the above instructions I've had zero issues. If you are blaming the cables for any issues you are having, implement the above instructions before throwing them out for some fancy expensive replacement. Btw I have only done the minimum of the above, which means I skipped the first part about "the Pro internal power-up-input-select" and set the delays in the power on order to 5 seconds. Obviously if you have one of those troublesome devices you might have to do follow the instructions to the max.


----------



## docrog

I can understand how the prior firmware change had universal appeal because of the addition (among other tweaks) of zone based DTM. But, can anyone inform me as to what's actually gained with the latest posted firmware update? How will these changes be noticed by those users with basic Radiance Pro setups without performance issues? Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> It's probably more an "it depends".
> Lightspace and Colourspace both allow you to re-generate and re-upload LUTs from an existing profile.
> If (I've asked the question of Light Illusion) they are supporting the extra digit then you should be able to just re-upload.
> There is an additional complication - this probably only works for combined 3D+1D LUT upload, which up until recently was the only upload option for LS. If you've split your calibration for maximum accuracy and done the 1DLUT first and then the 3DLUT, you'd probably want to at least re-do the 3DLUT portion of your calibration. You could probably re-upload the existing 1D portion though - but that's the quickest bit to do generally.


This update for precision is ONLY for the 1D LUT, has nothing to do with the 3D LUT. Right now there are no software options that take advantage of the extra precision, you'd have to tune it manually. I'm sure we'll see solutions catch up at some point in the future though. 



docrog said:


> I can understand how the prior firmware change had universal appeal because of the addition (among other tweaks) of zone based DTM. But, can anyone inform me as to what's actually gained with the latest posted firmware update? How will these changes be noticed by those users with basic Radiance Pro setups without performance issues? Thanks!


Neither of the last two updates (including zone based DTM) are releases that I would say are for readily apparent jumps in picture quality. The DTM update was more about artifacts for difficult scenes alleviation more than an increase in perceptible performance of the DTM. It is just a further refinement in the way the DTM works to eliminate the rare instance of an artifact. The new precision update is for calibrators to have a bit more precision when dialing in the grayscale/gamma. The 1D LUT has ALWAYS been 12 bits in precision, but on the input value side it was limited to 10-bit, which truncates a bit of the performance. The main benefit of this will be precision near black when dialing in grayscale/gamma.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> This update for precision is ONLY for the 1D LUT, has nothing to do with the 3D LUT. Right now there are no software options that take advantage of the extra precision, you'd have to tune it manually. I'm sure we'll see solutions catch up at some point in the future though.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of the last two updates (including zone based DTM) are releases that I would say are for readily apparent jumps in picture quality. The DTM update was more about artifacts for difficult scenes alleviation more than an increase in perceptible performance of the DTM. It is just a further refinement in the way the DTM works to eliminate the rare instance of an artifact. The new precision update is for calibrators to have a bit more precision when dialing in the grayscale/gamma. The 1D LUT has ALWAYS been 12 bits in precision, but on the input value side it was limited to 10-bit, which truncates a bit of the performance. The main benefit of this will be precision near black when dialing in grayscale/gamma.


Thanks for your explanation, Kris. Am I correct to assume that, barring any further "earth shaking" firmware updates, I can wait until Craig returns next year before updating to the latest firmware since I don't personally calibrate my equipment?


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Thanks for your explanation, Kris. Am I correct to assume that, barring any further "earth shaking" firmware updates, I can wait until Craig returns next year before updating to the latest firmware since I don't personally calibrate my equipment?



Even if you don't personally calibrate, there's no reason to avoid firmware updates. They won't negate your calibration. They can always be rolled back. There's nothing to be concerned with when updating. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks for your explanation, Kris. Am I correct to assume that, barring any further "earth shaking" firmware updates, I can wait until Craig returns next year before updating to the latest firmware since I don't personally calibrate my equipment?


You could hold off, but I imagine there will be other updates before Craig comes out that would beneficial. There is one in the works right now that improves the DTM with some content I found in testing. Any future update would already have this update included.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> This update for precision is ONLY for the 1D LUT, has nothing to do with the 3D LUT. Right now there are no software options that take advantage of the extra precision, you'd have to tune it manually. I'm sure we'll see solutions catch up at some point in the future though.


Yes, I'm aware it is only for the 1D LUT. The "issue" (I use the term loosely) with just doing the 1D update and leaving the 3D in place is that the 3D LUT for the updated precision 1D >might< ideally have wanted to be slightly different, so if you'd gone to the effort of doing the split 1D + 3D configuration now possible in LS / CS (which already implies you're at the extreme end of performance seeking) you'd probably want to re-do your 3D after doing a new 1D upload. (the profile for the 3DLUT portion is measured with the 1D LUT in play in the LS / CS "split 1D + 3D" workflow).

I spoke with Steve at @Light Illusion earlier, he said they're on the case now for the updated precision upload and it should be arriving very soon indeed. Not sure when Calman or Chromapure users can expect it.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Yes, I'm aware it is only for the 1D LUT. The "issue" (I use the term loosely) with just doing the 1D update and leaving the 3D in place is that the 3D LUT for the updated precision 1D >might< ideally have wanted to be slightly different, so if you'd gone to the effort of doing the split 1D + 3D configuration now possible in LS / CS (which already implies you're at the extreme end of performance seeking) you'd probably want to re-do your 3D after doing a new 1D upload. (the profile for the 3DLUT portion is measured with the 1D LUT in play in the LS / CS "split 1D + 3D" workflow).
> 
> I spoke with Steve at @Light Illusion earlier, he said they're on the case now for the updated precision upload and it should be arriving very soon indeed. Not sure when Calman or Chromapure users can expect it.


Agree the 1D LUT may have an effect on the 3D LUT. I have always done 1D then 3D using CM and I'm hoping they'll be able to update their software soon to take into account the new degree of resolution. Glad to hear that LS is already working on it.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> You could hold off, but I imagine there will be other updates before Craig comes out that would beneficial. There is one in the works right now that improves the DTM with some content I found in testing. Any future update would already have this update included.


Much appreciated. I'll be on the lookout for that upcoming update, and will seriously consider updating at that time. I have not updated my Lumagen since the early January major DTM version since I don't have a laptop to take to the 4240, which means that I have to remove the 4240 from my HT and bring it to my office PC for updating (more than a bit of a pain). Craig can easily update my 4240 while it's in my HT if I haven't done so myself before he arrives next year.


----------



## LGJr

*Deep Color*

Anyone notice this on CX77/65/55, I own CX77. Whenever I disable deep color the the television will not accept 444/422 YCbCr only 420 from my Lumagen pro. This didn't happen when I disabled deep color on my lgE7. I still get strange spikes on the color chart from calman. Mostly worried why blue and yellow won't cooperate. The other colors are random. Tested Calman and C6 on my lgE7 and the issue wasn't there. I've reset the television twice with no luck. The television has 140hrs on it. Posted in LG owners thread also.


----------



## Kris Deering

LGJr said:


> Anyone notice this on CX77/65/55, I own CX77. Whenever I disable deep color the the television will not accept 444/422 YCbCr only 420 from my Lumagen pro. This didn't happen when I disabled deep color on my lgE7. I still get strange spikes on the color chart from calman. Mostly worried why blue and yellow won't cooperate. The other colors are random. Tested Calman and C6 on my lgE7 and the issue wasn't there. I've reset the television twice with no luck. The television has 140hrs on it. Posted in LG owners thread also.


Sounds like deep color is limited the bit depth being sent to the display. Since 422 is 12 bit, your display may need to have that flagged with deep color. Deep Color is not a gamut, so it doesn't mean that it will change your calibration, it is only a setting to tell the input device what it will or won't accept. 

The gamut errors look like linearity errors of the display, it is not uncommon. You could try and LUT calibration to see if it can help, I would start with at least 3000 points, or just do the full 17^3.


----------



## Kris Deering

LGJr said:


> Anyone notice this on CX77/65/55, I own CX77. Whenever I disable deep color the the television will not accept 444/422 YCbCr only 420 from my Lumagen pro. This didn't happen when I disabled deep color on my lgE7. I still get strange spikes on the color chart from calman. Mostly worried why blue and yellow won't cooperate. The other colors are random. Tested Calman and C6 on my lgE7 and the issue wasn't there. I've reset the television twice with no luck. The television has 140hrs on it. Posted in LG owners thread also.


Also, you may want to try and do the full LUT calibration of the CX itself first to see if you get a tighter baseline before using the Radiance. The LG models generally have good tracking for color and such when they are calibrated without a Lumagen.


----------



## jrp

I wanted to post an update on Game Mode for the Radiance Pro:

We are doing internal testing of an update that includes a "Game Mode" that significantly reduces the delay through the Radiance Pro when enabled.

With Genlock on, the Game Mode input frame start to output frame start delay should be approximately 1/8 of a frame (roughly 2 mS at 60 Hertz) if the input and output are both 16:9 and not using the "Output Shrink" feature. It should be about 1/4 of a frame delay (roughly 4 mS at 60 Hertz) if output "top shrink" is the typical 12.17% used for a 2.35 screen without an anamorphic lens. It should be about 3/8 of a frame (roughly 6 mS at 60 Hertz) if Output Shrink is 24.34% at the top of the screen (2.35 screen, no lens, all the the blanked pixels above the screen).

Typical caveats for Genlock apply. That is, Genlock will increase jitter to some degree, and some projectors/TVs are not tolerant of the additional jitter. Without Genlock the Pro output jitter is below the HDMI spec, but it might increase to a bit over the HDMI spec with Genlock on. In addition, Genlock forces an HDMI output restart every time the input rate, or source, is changed. This only affects switching time, unless you have a marginal projector input (many are) that has trouble locking on to a new signal or a signal with slightly higher jitter.

With Genlock off, the input to output delay will have an addition zero to one-frame (16.67 mS at 60 Hertz) of delay since the input and output frames free-run and are not in "lock step" as they are with Genlock on.

These times are approximate until we make sure there is no frame tearing in the output (from flipping frames too soon). We are trying to make sure there will be no tearing, but cannot test all possible combinations. When you use Game Mode, if you notice any frame tearing with your specific settings, please let Lumagen support know. 

Game Mode will be in the Input->Options->A/V Delay menu (formerly named the "Lip sync" menu). After selecting Game Mode, press OK and answer the "scope" question to say if it should apply to more than the current input and input memory. Then do a Save.

===== 

This release will also have a new and better FPGA. We have had a couple people have issues with the current FPGA in 042120. At least one of these systems is now working with the FPGA load in the test release.

===== 

If testing continues to go well, we should be posting the new release with Game Mode included on May 5 or 6.

[EDIT] BTW: Game mode works with DTM, *however* the DTM is applied a frame later than the scene cut. So you can use DTM for HDR games, but you might notice this extra frame delay in the change of the transfer function at scene cuts.


----------



## LGJr

Kris Deering said:


> Sounds like deep color is limited the bit depth being sent to the display. Since 422 is 12 bit, your display may need to have that flagged with deep color. Deep Color is not a gamut, so it doesn't mean that it will change your calibration, it is only a setting to tell the input device what it will or won't accept.
> 
> The gamut errors look like linearity errors of the display, it is not uncommon. You could try and LUT calibration to see if it can help, I would start with at least 3000 points, or just do the full 17^3.


Thanks for the reply. I've done up to 4400pts on 3d lut with the same results with similar outcome. I've also done the 9x9x9 fixed grid. All done with frame insertion at recommended settings. I've also done with wide and extended color gamut on television. I have not done a 1d + 3d lut on panel first. I will give this a try.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> I wanted to post an update on Game Mode for the Radiance Pro:
> 
> We are doing internal testing of an update that includes a "Game Mode" that significantly reduces the delay through the Radiance Pro when enabled.
> 
> With Genlock on, the Game Mode input frame start to output frame start delay should be approximately 1/8 of a frame (roughly 2 mS at 60 Hertz) if the input and output are both 16:9 and not using the "Output Shrink" feature. It should be about 1/4 of a frame delay (roughly 4 mS at 60 Hertz) if output "top shrink" is the typical 12.17% used for a 2.35 screen without an anamorphic lens. It should be about 3/8 of a frame (roughly 6 mS at 60 Hertz) if Output Shrink is 24.34% at the top of the screen (2.35 screen, no lens, all the the blanked pixels above the screen).
> 
> Typical caveats for Genlock apply. That is, Genlock will increase jitter to some degree, and some projectors/TVs are not tolerant of the additional jitter. Without Genlock the Pro output jitter is below the HDMI spec, but it might increase to a bit over the HDMI spec with Genlock on. In addition, Genlock forces an HDMI output restart every time the input rate, or source, is changed. This only affects switching time, unless you have a marginal projector input (many are) that has trouble locking on to a new signal or a signal with slightly higher jitter.
> 
> With Genlock off, the input to output delay will have an addition zero to one-frame (16.67 mS at 60 Hertz) of delay since the input and output frames free-run and are not in "lock step" as they are with Genlock on.
> 
> These times are approximate until we make sure there is no frame tearing in the output (from flipping frames too soon). We are trying to make sure there will be no tearing, but cannot test all possible combinations. When you use Game Mode, if you notice any frame tearing with your specific settings, please let Lumagen support know.
> 
> Game Mode will be in the Input->Options->A/V Delay menu (formerly named the "Lip sync" menu). After selecting Game Mode, press OK and answer the "scope" question to say if it should apply to more than the current input and input memory. Then do a Save.
> 
> =====
> 
> This release will also have a new and better FPGA. We have had a couple people have issues with the current FPGA in 042120. At least one of these systems is now working with the FPGA load in the test release.
> 
> =====
> 
> If testing continues to go well, we should be posting the new release with Game Mode included on May 5 or 6.
> 
> [EDIT] BTW: Game mode works with DTM, *however* the DTM is applied a frame later than the scene cut. So you can use DTM for HDR games, but you might notice this extra frame delay in the change of the transfer function at scene cuts.


Assuming Game Mode might be used for primarily XBox One X and PS4 Pros, it might be nice to have your recommended settings for each of these consoles. Also per your DTM comments, would it just be best to run HDR directly to our projectors vs using DTM? Almost all new games are 4K HDR. The frame delay would only be seen at the beginning of scene cuts vs. game playing? Just want to minimize delay. Thanks for adding this feature! SJ


----------



## bobof

For anyone who's interested, I was given a beta version of Lightspace today by Steve at @Light Illusion and it has an update which allows the extra precision 1D LUT data to be uploaded, and all seems to be in order so I would guess a release will be fairly imminent


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> For anyone who's interested, I was given a beta version of Lightspace today by Steve at @Light Illusion and it has an update which allows the extra precision 1D LUT data to be uploaded, and all seems to be in order so I would guess a release will be fairly imminent



Great is it done based on ur current 1D LUT and updated 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roland Janus

*Genlock*

What exactly is that for or what's the benefit?


----------



## bobof

A7mad78 said:


> Great is it done based on ur current 1D LUT and updated


If you are a Lightspace / Colorspace user:
- and have the profile you used for a combined 1D/3D upload, then you can re-generate the 1D/3D LUT and upload.
- and did separate 1D and 3DLUTs, you could only re-generate the 1DLUT after which you'd really be advised to do a new 3DLUT (the 3DLUT depends on the 1DLUT).
You can also manually tweak the new improved precision of your existing LUTs, but that sounds painful to me! 

For what it is worth this is my most recent best-ever calibration of my JVC X7900 for SDR. Done today leveraging the new firmware with higher precision 1DLUT and the Lightspace beta from @Light Illusion.
Greyscale avg dE2k 0.32, min 0.22 max 0.53.
Over 900 colour patches avg 0.26, min 0.01 max 1.25 (only 2 patches over 1).
This was using a QP Primary and Secondary patch run for making the 1DLUT, and then a 21^3 for the 3DLUT.


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> What exactly is that for or what's the benefit?


Without genlock enabled, the HDMI input and output are freerunning relative to each other. This means that you are exposed to the relative accuracy of the clocks in the player and the Lumagen, and as these clocks diverge you eventually end up having to either duplicate or drop video frames. (depending on which of the two devices is running faster). How often these frame adjustments have to happen is determined by the exact combination of equipment.

With genlock enabled, the Radiance links the generation of the HDMI output clock to the HDMI input clock, which stops them slipping relative to each other, and so you shouldn't experience dropped of duplicate frames. This comes at a penalty of the precise timing of the HDMI signal being more jittery, which can cause some gear to be less happy to see it at the input, and so you might experience more HDMI issues if the combination of your HDMI input on your display or other upstream device plus the cables is already on the edge.

The fast and normal options for genlock control parameters around how fast the synching up of the clocks happens; that is a parameter that can help if the setup is marginal.


----------



## A7mad78

bobof said:


> If you are a Lightspace / Colorspace user:
> - and have the profile you used for a combined 1D/3D upload, then you can re-generate the 1D/3D LUT and upload.
> - and did separate 1D and 3DLUTs, you could only re-generate the 1DLUT after which you'd really be advised to do a new 3DLUT (the 3DLUT depends on the 1DLUT).
> You can also manually tweak the new improved precision of your existing LUTs, but that sounds painful to me!
> 
> For what it is worth this is my most recent best-ever calibration of my JVC X7900 for SDR. Done today leveraging the new firmware with higher precision 1DLUT and the Lightspace beta from @Light Illusion.
> Greyscale avg dE2k 0.32, min 0.22 max 0.53.
> Over 900 colour patches avg 0.26, min 0.01 max 1.25 (only 2 patches over 1).
> This was using a QP Primary and Secondary patch run for making the 1DLUT, and then a 21^3 for the 3DLUT.



Yes my calibration done using lightspace and I think I am in good hand to get benefit from these 1LUT upgrade 

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Without genlock enabled, the HDMI input and output are freerunning relative to each other. This means that you are exposed to the relative accuracy of the clocks in the player and the Lumagen, and as these clocks diverge you eventually end up having to either duplicate or drop video frames. (depending on which of the two devices is running faster). How often these frame adjustments have to happen is determined by the exact combination of equipment.
> 
> With genlock enabled, the Radiance links the generation of the HDMI output clock to the HDMI input clock, which stops them slipping relative to each other, and so you shouldn't experience dropped of duplicate frames. This comes at a penalty of the precise timing of the HDMI signal being more jittery, which can cause some gear to be less happy to see it at the input, and so you might experience more HDMI issues if the combination of your HDMI input on your display or other upstream device plus the cables is already on the edge.
> 
> The fast and normal options for genlock control parameters around how fast the synching up of the clocks happens; that is a parameter that can help if the setup is marginal.


great explanation, thank you!

With that in mind, I expect the majority would have it enabled.
Is that actually the case?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> great explanation, thank you!
> 
> With that in mind, I expect the majority would have it enabled.
> Is that actually the case?


I have it enabled, but it isn't enabled by default.
I always argue for correct frame rates where possible, but fact is a lot of folk just don't notice frame drops / stutters (especially if they're very infrequent, or they are already converting everything to 60p to avoid resyncs) and so the default setting for genlock is off as this improves the interoperability of the Radiance Pro. Heck, a lot of folk don't even notice the dropped frame ever 42s from watching 24.0p content at 23.976p that devices like AppleTV do, let alone something that might be around the 30 minutes mark!

Tolerance of poor cadence is much higher in NTSC ~60Hz territories than in PAL/SECAM 50Hz territories as we never had the 3:2 pulldown for film content - our versions of movies just ran a bit faster and sometimes with slightly tighter trousers...


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 042820 - Game Mode*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*042820*
- Posted 050620 
Renamed *Lipsync *menu under *Input: Options* to *A/V Delay* and added *Game Mode* as an option in this menu. 
Game Mode will keep video delay to a minimum but trades off some quality with Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). 
For absolute minimal video delay through the Pro genlock also needs to enabled (under *Input: Options: Genlock* ). 
A DTM fix for a challenging scene. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## estabanj

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *042820*
> - Posted 050620
> Renamed *Lipsync *menu under *Input: Options* to *A/V Delay* and added *Game Mode* as an option in this menu.
> Game Mode will keep video delay to a minimum but trades off some quality with Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM).
> For absolute minimal video delay through the Pro genlock also needs to enabled (under *Input: Options: Genlock* ).
> A DTM fix for a challenging scene.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware


I just upgraded to SW 042820 and noticed that the status screen shows it as SW 042720. Jim has confirmed that this is a typo, so don't be concerned if you see this.

Cheers Stephen


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> If you are a Lightspace / Colorspace user:
> - and have the profile you used for a combined 1D/3D upload, then you can re-generate the 1D/3D LUT and upload.
> - and did separate 1D and 3DLUTs, you could only re-generate the 1DLUT after which you'd really be advised to do a new 3DLUT (the 3DLUT depends on the 1DLUT).
> You can also manually tweak the new improved precision of your existing LUTs, but that sounds painful to me!
> 
> For what it is worth this is my most recent best-ever calibration of my JVC X7900 for SDR. Done today leveraging the new firmware with higher precision 1DLUT and the Lightspace beta from @Light Illusion.
> Greyscale avg dE2k 0.32, min 0.22 max 0.53.
> Over 900 colour patches avg 0.26, min 0.01 max 1.25 (only 2 patches over 1).
> This was using a QP Primary and Secondary patch run for making the 1DLUT, and then a 21^3 for the 3DLUT.


If you are doing a 1D LUT for your DTM CMS baseline, I would HIGHLY recommend you use ITP for your dE formula over dE2000. It prioritizes our eye sensitivity to darker areas of the image and does a MUCH better job in the lower half of the grayscale/gamma, which is where the bulk of the HDR material we watch is. I find this eliminates a lot of the little issues I see in grays/near black areas even when my dE's for de2000 are less than 1 (my results are similar to yours with dE2000, but if you switch to ITP you'll find that most of your dE's are up in the 3-5 range from about 40% and down). Just FYI.


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> I have it enabled, but it isn't enabled by default.
> I always argue for correct frame rates where possible, but fact is a lot of folk just don't notice frame drops / stutters (especially if they're very infrequent, or they are already converting everything to 60p to avoid resyncs) and so the default setting for genlock is off as this improves the interoperability of the Radiance Pro. Heck, a lot of folk don't even notice the dropped frame ever 42s from watching 24.0p content at 23.976p that devices like AppleTV do, let alone something that might be around the 30 minutes mark!
> 
> Tolerance of poor cadence is much higher in NTSC ~60Hz territories than in PAL/SECAM 50Hz territories as we never had the 3:2 pulldown for film content - our versions of movies just ran a bit faster and sometimes with slightly tighter trousers...


wondering if I'm also that bad in recognizing it?
Maybe the Shield is less of a problem.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> If you are doing a 1D LUT for your DTM CMS baseline, I would HIGHLY recommend you use ITP for your dE formula over dE2000. It prioritizes our eye sensitivity to darker areas of the image and does a MUCH better job in the lower half of the grayscale/gamma, which is where the bulk of the HDR material we watch is. I find this eliminates a lot of the little issues I see in grays/near black areas even when my dE's for de2000 are less than 1 (my results are similar to yours with dE2000, but if you switch to ITP you'll find that most of your dE's are up in the 3-5 range from about 40% and down). Just FYI.


I'm following the dEITP stuff with interest. I'm not sure if you noticed these results also show the average and min/max dEITP and also dE76 (I just quote the dE2K as that is what most folk are currently familiar with). They're pretty good too.

Most of my grey results are


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> wondering if I'm also that bad in recognizing it?
> Maybe the Shield is less of a problem.


As I say it is a combination of viewer susceptibility, particular refresh rates being used and the clock characteristics of the individual devices in terms of how fast they drift relative to each other. If you don't notice any issue with genlock off, and you don't need ultimate low latency, it sounds like the best option is to leave it disabled. Why expose yourself to a potential issue for no observed benefit?


----------



## AKJohnny

bobof said:


> For what it is worth as I understand Lightspace doesn't actually use the dE formulas for the LUT generation, they're just reporting after the fact.


If anyone knows how to change the dE formulas for LUT generation for LightSpace, please tell me. I've been wondering why I can't change that or find a way. Thanks.


----------



## jamesmil

SJHT said:


> Assuming Game Mode might be used for primarily XBox One X and PS4 Pros, it might be nice to have your recommended settings for each of these consoles. Also per your DTM comments, would it just be best to run HDR directly to our projectors vs using DTM? Almost all new games are 4K HDR. The frame delay would only be seen at the beginning of scene cuts vs. game playing? Just want to minimize delay. Thanks for adding this feature! SJ


I can help with the Xbox One settings. 

*Settings > General > TV & display options:*

Resolution: 4K UHD
Refresh rate: 60 Hz

*Video modes*

Allow 50Hz
Allow 24Hz
Allow YCC 4:2:2
Allow 4K
Allow HDR10

Also, don't forget to set speaker output (in Settings > General > Volume & audio output) to your preferred multichannel format (I use Dolby Atmos for example).

Jim, thank you so much for adding the Game Mode and the focus on a low latency path. I very much appreciate it!


----------



## bobof

AKJohnny said:


> If anyone knows how to change the dE formulas for LUT generation for LightSpace, please tell me. I've been wondering why I can't change that or find a way. Thanks.


You can't. The LUTs are not generated targeting a certain dE characteristic. The LUT algorithms use other criteria for working out where to place points for the best LUT.
Otherwise you couldn't have different LUT algorithms like peak chroma and map space, which have quite different approaches to gamut edges.

LS displays all 3 dE formulas at once in the manual measure and profile info page, and you can set reports to use one or several formulas on the relevant charts (Like the dE distribution graph I showed).

At least one other good reason not to use dE for point calcs in LUT generation is that dE has no direction vector - so if you have a LUT algo targetting purely dE it can't know which side of the point it is, and so this can contribute to very poor LUTs with banding. Otherwise you can have 2 adjacent points which have ended up on opposite sides of the target so their relative distance is increased.


----------



## A7mad78

In the game mode shall we make the genlock ON or just keep it off and make the game mode ON for PS4


----------



## Kris Deering

Jim Peterson and I were featured on a recent podcast and talked all things Lumagen. This was my second appearance on "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast, which is run by a HT Enthuasist who is also one of my calibration clients. You can check it out on my podcast services or at the link below.

Fun Waste of Time Podcast

I also just did a web seminar with Metra and JVC about projector calibration (we didn't get to everything in the time allotted, so probably will have a follow up on this) and we discuss the Lumagen for a few minutes.


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> Jim Peterson and I were featured on a recent podcast and talked all things Lumagen. This was my second appearance on "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast, which is run by a HT Enthuasist who is also one of my calibration clients. You can check it out on my podcast services or at the link below.
> 
> Fun Waste of Time Podcast
> 
> I also just did a web seminar with Metra and JVC about projector calibration (we didn't get to everything in the time allotted, so probably will have a follow up on this) and we discuss the Lumagen for a few minutes.
> 
> Theater Calibration with JVC and Deep Dive AV



Great podcast - really enjoyed it. And a really good discussion / explanation about HDR dynamic tone mapping for those of us who don’t have the technical understanding of how it works. 

Jim - you should consider building a hush box for your rs4500 so you can tap into its full potential on high laser for HDR content. You are at 88 nits / 26 fL now (I believe you said medium laser)- if not for the brightness, high laser would allow you to close down the manual iris more to enhance contrast. My sealed and ventilated hush box (for rs4500) will be installed in a couple weeks in my theater under construction and cost about $1500 in usd for the box, optical glass, and in line ventilation fan/thermostat. Personally I think it’s money well spent.


----------



## Light Illusion

AKJohnny said:


> If anyone knows how to change the dE formulas for LUT generation for LightSpace, please tell me. I've been wondering why I can't change that or find a way. Thanks.


No dE formula should ever be used for 'calibration'.
It is totally incorrect to do so, as dE is only viable as a measurement metric to assess likely accuracy.
It is not in any way suitable for actual LUT generation, and any calibration system that attempts that shows a serious lack of understanding.

Steve


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> Jim Peterson and I were featured on a recent podcast and talked all things Lumagen. This was my second appearance on "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast, which is run by a HT Enthuasist who is also one of my calibration clients. You can check it out on my podcast services or at the link below.
> AV[/url]


Kris,
Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
When Lumagen Plans to upgrade or is it even necessary nd whenever they do, will they have a upgrade path for the current owners.
I am a Lumagen Skeptic - used it with my DWIN CRT projector early 2000.... and now a huge fan. Could not imagine watching HDR material without the Lumagen on my VW5000.


----------



## EVH78

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris,
> Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
> Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....


Asked the same thing just a bit ago. Jim generally has got this "tendency" to ignore some posts - for whatever reasons. Maybe just because they are not on current his road map or prioritised. I understand he is a busy man.


----------



## Killroy

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris,
> Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
> Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
> When Lumagen Plans to upgrade or is it even necessary nd whenever they do, will they have a upgrade path for the current owners.
> I am a Lumagen Skeptic - used it with my DWIN CRT projector early 2000.... and now a huge fan. Could not imagine watching HDR material without the Lumagen on my VW5000.


I don't think any product manufacturer would reveal road maps out of concern of killing current stock if the new product is more than a year away. That is why computer, camera, projector makers always wait till the last second before announcing any new products. That timing of stock supply is a never perfect science. Do it too early and you get stuck with a warehouse full of unsold older products, do it too late and you risk running out of stock of older products while waiting for new products to be manufactured.


----------



## Theaterfreak360

*Jim Peterson of Lumagen Inc. Interview on "The Fun Waste of Time" Podcast*

Another awesome episode of "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast has dropped! In this dedicated "Home Theater Experience (HTX) episode, Jim Peterson, President of Lumagen Inc., creator of the MAGNIFICENT Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor and owner of this fantastic theater joins the show! Listen in as Jim discusses the multitude of features and capabilities the Radiance Pro has to drastically improve the home theater experience.

Jim shares how the Lumagen Radiance Pro increases home theater immersion with features like aspect ratio control (getting rid of horizontal and vertical black bars on movies, tv shows and video games), “NoRing” scaling (excellent video upscaling), the recently added “Game” mode for low latency gaming (potentially decreasing latency down to 2 milliseconds), 1D and 3D LUT calibration, proprietary Dynamic Tone Mapping to improve HDR performance and much...much more!

Jim also shares his thoughts on what it takes to set up a satisfying home theater.

As an added bonus…Kris Deering, writer for Sound and Vision Magazine and owner of Deep Dive AV, co-hosts this episode and provides his insight on the Lumagen Radiance Pro not only as a calibrator, but as a customer as well.

There's all this and much more in episode 21 of "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast!

Check out it on the following podcast platforms:

Google - https://podcasts.google.com/?q=The%2...te of time

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...PQ9kCUdNxeFdB4

Stitcher - https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-fun-waste-of-time

Official Podcast Link - http://funwot.libsyn.com/website


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> Kris,
> Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
> Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
> When Lumagen Plans to upgrade or is it even necessary nd whenever they do, will they have a upgrade path for the current owners.
> I am a Lumagen Skeptic - used it with my DWIN CRT projector early 2000.... and now a huge fan. Could not imagine watching HDR material without the Lumagen on my VW5000.


I have not idea what Lumagen's hardware upgrade path is for future products. The only real hardware upgrade I could think of is HDMI 2.1, but I don't know how relevant it would be to the Lumagen in general as it is a not a 8K upscaler and the bulk of the other features of that format revolve around the gaming world. I would imagine to take full advantage of those features would require a new processor from the ground up. Jim has already stated that they are continuing their refinement of their pipeline precision and performance, and I think that is their priority for the time being.


----------



## EVH78

Killroy said:


> I don't think any product manufacturer would reveal road maps out of concern of killing current stock if the new product is more than a year away. That is why computer, camera, projector makers always wait till the last second before announcing any new products. That timing of stock supply is a never perfect science. Do it too early and you get stuck with a warehouse full of unsold older products, do it too late and you risk running out of stock of older products while waiting for new products to be manufactured.


You are missing the point. We are talking solely hardware upgrades ( for example HDMI 2.1 boards) that could be added.


----------



## Killroy

EVH78 said:


> You are missing the point. We are talking solely hardware upgrades ( for example HDMI 2.1 boards) that could be added.


Not missing the point...let's say that he is NOT planning hardware up grades but a whole new product...and he reveals that here now but still has 1000 units of old stock. If that new hardware is more than, let's say, six months away he can pretty much say good-bye to any new buyers that wanted to buy a unit between now now and next 3-4 months since they rather wait for the new product.

There is a fine line of stock supply that small manufacturers have to deal with when talking about upgrades and/or new products. For the consumer it's a lot easier...buy now, wait for upgrades or wait for new products. The less the consumer knows the easier it is for sellers to keep old stocks at a minimum.


----------



## EVH78

Killroy said:


> Not missing the point...let's say that he is NOT planning hardware up grades but a whole new product...and he reveals that here now but still has 1000 units of old stock. If that new hardware is more than, let's say, six months away he can pretty much say good-bye to any new buyers that wanted to buy a unit between now now and next 3-4 months since they rather wait for the new product.
> 
> There is a fine line of stock supply that small manufacturers have to deal with when talking about upgrades and/or new products. For the consumer it's a lot easier...buy now, wait for upgrades or wait for new products. The less the consumer knows the easier it is for sellers to keep old stocks at a minimum.


I hear you. But they did the same thing with the 9Ghz and 18 Ghz HDMI boards, you could just simply add them to your configuration OR add them later any time.


----------



## Killroy

EVH78 said:


> I hear you. But they did the same thing with the 9Ghz and 18 Ghz HDMI boards, you could just simply add them to your configuration OR add them later any time.


I am willing to bet that announcement was made when the road map was completely clear for then 2-3 years. No danger of cannibalizing your stock.


----------



## bobof

For what it is worth I don't think we're going to see any HDMI2.1 product that any of us in the HT projection space are going to really care about in a long, long time. Without support all the way through the chain and into the display, pretty much all the features of HDMI2.1 amount to nothing, and I don't see any sign that we'll get HDMI2.1 in high-end HT projectors this year, maybe not even next. JVC only just got their new range with all new electronics out in the market in the last year and I'll be mildly surprised if Sony are even still in the market next year, which then mostly leaves the odd DLP HT unit and the ultra-high end units crossing over from the commercial world like the Christie & Barco units.

Then there is the question of HDMI2.1 sources... There's almost certainly not going to be an 8K disc format (4K releases are already pitiful in bredth and sell-through) and the current content production and distribution systems already balk at 4K requirements for cable, satellite and streaming distribution. By the time everything catches up there probably won't be streaming boxes for 8K services and it will all be OTT delivery into apps embedded in the displays. 

I think probably the only folk who are really going to care about HDMI2.1 at the end of the day are going to be gamers.


----------



## sor

Killroy said:


> Not missing the point...let's say that he is NOT planning hardware up grades but a whole new product...and he reveals that here now but still has 1000 units of old stock. If that new hardware is more than, let's say, six months away he can pretty much say good-bye to any new buyers that wanted to buy a unit between now now and next 3-4 months since they rather wait for the new product.
> 
> There is a fine line of stock supply that small manufacturers have to deal with when talking about upgrades and/or new products. For the consumer it's a lot easier...buy now, wait for upgrades or wait for new products. The less the consumer knows the easier it is for sellers to keep old stocks at a minimum.



I think this is true, but then you also have customers like me, who just refuse to buy a five year old piece of electronics, unless it’s an amplifier or some other fundamentally basic equipment. You have to give *some* indication that the product line is going somewhere.

Often companies will issue a refresh with minor spec bumps, or a new chassis or something, just to indicate at least that this thing is going to be the state of the art for some time. If you go five years people start to just assume something new is on the horizon, or sense stagnation and look elsewhere.

Edit - just to be clear I do realize there has been firmware end feature work ongoing over the years. However, I think the longer the hardware goes, the shorter the runway for improvements. I think about the RS4500 for example and how the newer NX line got DTM but the RS4500 hardware couldn’t handle it. From a layman’s point of view, We assume at some point the Radiance Pro is going to be constrained on what they can do with it.


----------



## bobof

sor said:


> I think this is true, but then you also have customers like me, who just refuse to buy a five year old piece of electronics, unless it’s an amplifier or some other fundamentally basic equipment. You have to give *some* indication that the product line is going somewhere.
> 
> Often companies will issue a refresh with minor spec bumps, or a new chassis or something, just to indicate at least that this thing is going to be the state of the art for some time. If you go five years people start to just assume something new is on the horizon, or sense stagnation and look elsewhere.


I can't help but feel for the guys at Lumagen though with comment like this. They've been delivering new functionality in new hardware in the shape of new FPGA designs into these boxes since they arrived in the market, the most recent being the ultra low latency while retaining most processing functionality game mode delivered just a few days ago. The hardware is still not full, there are still new hardware features on the horizon. Another manufacturer could have slapped an i or x on the end of the model numbers and sold a new version product on the back of that - heck, JVC have delivered far less than that in the way of incremental upgrades over the previous projector model range's history; they got 10 years out of the last product. Would that have been a better strategy - orphaning off all our product chasing new bucks every year for often significant features that we could have had in our boxes?

If there's something that you have a good use-case for wanting in the product that is stopping you buying it, put it out there - there is every chance it might be able to be done in the product that is already here as the hardware is still capable of plenty more.


----------



## sor

bobof said:


> I can't help but feel for the guys at Lumagen though with comment like this. They've been delivering new functionality in new hardware in the shape of new FPGA designs into these boxes since they arrived in the market, the most recent being the ultra low latency while retaining most processing functionality game mode delivered just a few days ago. The hardware is still not full, there are still new hardware features on the horizon. Another manufacturer could have slapped an i or x on the end of the model numbers and sold a new version product on the back of that - heck, JVC have delivered far less than that in the way of incremental upgrades over the previous projector model range's history; they got 10 years out of the last product. Would that have been a better strategy - orphaning off all our product chasing new bucks every year for often significant features that we could have had in our boxes?
> 
> If there's something that you have a good use-case for wanting in the product that is stopping you buying it, put it out there - there is every chance it might be able to be done in the product that is already here as the hardware is still capable of plenty more.



Perhaps it’s just a marketing thing, then, if they’re actually refreshing the hardware without any obvious indication to the consumer.

It reminds me of the Valentine One radar detector. Same chassis for decades but they changed the guts all the time and offer a rebuild/update for anyone who sends one in.

To your last point, I sort of feel like we can’t expect customers to be savvy enough to know the limits of FPGAs they use and whether or not the processors will be able to be competitive with newer hardware others might release in the near future. They’d do well to be savvy enough marketers to signal that their products are current in some fashion, even if under the hood they use the same or slightly tweaked versions of the same chips. As consumers we are generally trusting them to be the experts, but as the hardware ages one begins to wonder what is coming or how much longer the current can go.


----------



## sor

I guess perhaps it’s less of an issue for them, if they’re focusing on sales through integrators and calibrators like Kris. They don’t have to worry so much about consumer impressions to sell their product, they have trained people who know.


----------



## bobof

sor said:


> Perhaps it’s just a marketing thing, then, if they’re actually refreshing the hardware without any obvious indication to the consumer.
> 
> It reminds me of the Valentine One radar detector. Same chassis for decades but they changed the guts all the time and offer a rebuild/update for anyone who sends one in.
> 
> To your last point, I sort of feel like we can’t expect customers to be savvy enough to know the limits of FPGAs they use and whether or not the processors will be able to be competitive with newer hardware others might release in the near future. They’d do well to be savvy enough marketers to signal that their products are current in some fashion, even if under the hood they use the same or slightly tweaked versions of the same chips. As consumers we are generally trusting them to be the experts, but as the hardware ages one begins to wonder what is coming or how much longer the current can go.


I should be clear; there are a couple of small rolling tweaks Jim has mentioned to the physical hardware in recent time - the use of high-end microwave caps on the HDMI boards for example - and the 44xx series went from 2U to 1U with a new board design, but the core HW shipping in the box is the same. The hardware updates I'm predominantly referring to are new hardware designs being uploaded into the FPGA, either having been provided in the factory, or via an upgrade in the home through the USB port.

FPGAs are significantly different to CPUs or GPUs in that they are almost unfathomably configurable, with huge arrays of small logic blocks waiting to be tied together into functionality, but otherwise dumb as a box of spanners at factory time. That allows functionality to be added at a very low level, not possible with other technologies. The recently added game mode is a particularly poignant example as another product about to launch onto the market in this space can't have that feature now or ever with the hardware it is shipping with in the box; yet you've got something that has made it into "old" territory in your mind being updated with a significant remote hardware update to support such functionality. The mind boggles.

I'm just an end user at the end of the day though and I have no knowledge of Lumagen's roadmap, but if I was building another theatre tomorrow I wouldn't hesitate to get one again as it is still the only shipping solution for getting really high quality video processing and it ticks all the boxes I need. Something else may always be around the corner; and if I'd gone with that thought I wouldn't have enjoyed coming up for 18 months of DTM (or intensity mapping before than), plus the extensive 3DLUT and aspect processing that has always been a cornerstone of the Lumagen Radiance series.


----------



## riddle

I have a little question, how big of a difference in PQ can can do better power supply (linear toroide) with Lumagen? Today I tested a new linear toroide power supply (12V 25W) one on my Zidoo Z9S and I was pleasantly surprised how was improved PQ (colors, detail).


Thank you


----------



## uderman

riddle said:


> I have a little question, how big of a difference in PQ can can do better power supply (linear toroide) with Lumagen? Today I tested a new linear toroide power supply (12V 25W) one on my Zidoo Z9S and I was pleasantly surprised how was improved PQ (colors, detail).
> 
> 
> Thank you


I have been looking into this for some time. I believe the improvement on video would be nearly none. The board is low noise low jitter design with filters in place and good regulation all around (especially in the latest revision board). On a very revealing system audio might improve. There are some concerns with a linear supply on the Lumagen Pro. Currently it consumes 2.5A and above 3.6A when HDR video is fed. There are improvements to the pipeline and added new features in talk for the near future. So it is like these numbers will be even higher soon. Currently, Radiance Pro is provided with a 5A switching mode power supply for this reason. A linear power supply will run very warm at 5A load. If you must have one, make sure you have enough heatsinks on it and it won’t cook your equipment cabinet. Also, if there is any DC bias in your AC line, the toroidal linear supply will buzz. 

Look into Keces Audio P8 single output for the linear supply and Ghent Audio for the DC cable upgrade. Cinemike in Germany uses the same supply but upgrades the internals.


----------



## EVH78

Killroy said:


> I am willing to bet that announcement was made when the road map was completely clear for then 2-3 years. No danger of cannibalizing your stock.


They are still selling those 9Ghz models. I seriously cannot see here any cannibalizig of stock when you have different models since they do not come with the same price tag....


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> For what it is worth I don't think we're going to see any HDMI2.1 product that any of us in the HT projection space are going to really care about in a long, long time.



Asides gaming with 4:4:4 12 bit at 2160p120 on my TV I could also imagine feeding 8K material to my projector if the radiance pro was able to do the (down-) scaling and processing.


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> ... Jim - you should consider building a hush box for your rs4500 so you can tap into its full potential on high laser for HDR content. You are at 88 nits / 26 fL now (I believe you said medium laser)- if not for the brightness, high laser would allow you to close down the manual iris more to enhance contrast. My sealed and ventilated hush box (for rs4500) will be installed in a couple weeks in my theater under construction and cost about $1500 in usd for the box, optical glass, and in line ventilation fan/thermostat. Personally I think it’s money well spent.


I have been considering a hush-box, but at the moment my wife has veto'd it as being unsightly. I am working on convincing her as I would like the extra light output. The current 88 nits actually looks great with the Radiance Pro DTM. So not in a huge rush to build the hush box.


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> Asides gaming with 4:4:4 12 bit at 2160p120 on my TV I could also imagine feeding 8K material to my projector if the radiance pro was able to do the (down-) scaling and processing.


Which projector is this that supports 8K input?
Edit: sorry, I misread that. I think it is pretty fringe since there isn't any commercial content of note. 8k seems like it is dead out of the gates to be honest. At the end of the day I guess if enough folk want to do it a product is likely to happen.


----------



## Killroy

EVH78 said:


> They are still selling those 9Ghz models. I seriously cannot see here any cannibalizig of stock when you have different models since they do not come with the same price tag....


Yeah, you got me on that one but if I am not mistaken, if you buy the 9Ghz unit and then want to upgrade it all to 18Ghz you will pay more to upgrade the cards than if you just bought the 18Ghz to begin with...right?. Upgrades are always more expensive than just buying native.


----------



## skylarlove1999

bobof said:


> Which projector is this that supports 8K input?


Assuming poster was trying to future proof their video processor by finding one that will either process or pass an 8K signal when and if an 8K projector becomes available. The JVC RS3000 can create a faux 8K image via eshifting a native 4K image but cannot accept an 8k signal. Most owners despise the 8K pixel shifting and wish it had not be included. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

@*jrp* I KNEW I liked you. 

Not only is the Lumagen a vital component in any high end video chain with constant amazing and upgrades, but, according to the first image of your theater seen above, you are as Anal/OCD as I am. Nothing speaks to that like marks from a vacuum cleaner.


----------



## bobof

skylarlove1999 said:


> Assuming poster was trying to future proof their video processor by finding one that will either process or pass an 8K signal when and if an 8K projector becomes available. The JVC RS3000 can create a faux 8K image via eshifting a native 4K image but cannot accept an 8k signal. Most owners despise the 8K pixel shifting and wish it had not be included.


I'd mis-read the original post, but yes, the inclusion of the extra pixel shifting element in the light path after going to the expense of getting lovely lens in the NX9 seems like a superb own goal scored on the part of JVC. It's the feature no-one asked for nor needed, seems like a way to try and justify the price for that product.

With those requirements the OP on the subject will likely be talking themselves into no video processor as I'm not aware of any in the pipeline from any manufacturer with HDMI2.1 inputs. I think that is a big shame if they have a significant theatre as it will limit the quality achievable for the 99.9% of content that isn't HFR or 8k.


----------



## Erod

skylarlove1999 said:


> bobof said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which projector is this that supports 8K input?
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming poster was trying to future proof their video processor by finding one that will either process or pass an 8K signal when and if an 8K projector becomes available. The JVC RS3000 can create a faux 8K image via eshifting a native 4K image but cannot accept an 8k signal. Most owners despise the 8K pixel shifting and wish it had not be included.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Can the pixel shift not be turned off?


----------



## bobof

Erod said:


> Can the pixel shift not be turned off?


Yes, but you can't remove the extra optical element from the lightpath - it merely stays in one position. There is suspicion it is responsible for some detriment to the 4K image even disabled.


----------



## skylarlove1999

Erod said:


> Can the pixel shift not be turned off?[/quote @bobof already replied accurately. Conspiracy theorists believe just the presence of the extra optical element degrades the image quality. . But seriously some people do believe that it does. I don't know of any NX9 owners who use the 8k pixel shifting feature.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> I have been considering a hush-box, but at the moment my wife has veto'd it as being unsightly. I am working on convincing her as I would like the extra light output. The current 88 nits actually looks great with the Radiance Pro DTM. So not in a huge rush to build the hush box.



Just curious : Is your manual iris wide open or clamped down a bit?


----------



## uderman

Killroy said:


> EVH78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are still selling those 9Ghz models. I seriously cannot see here any cannibalizig of stock when you have different models since they do not come with the same price tag....
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you got me on that one but if I am not mistaken, if you buy the 9Ghz unit and then want to upgrade it all to 18Ghz you will pay more to upgrade the cards than if you just bought the 18Ghz to begin with...right?. Upgrades are always more expensive than just buying native.
Click to expand...


There are a couple of benefits to 9GHz inputs. They have less issues with older equipment and longer HDMI runs. It is also a significant cost cut if you don’t need all 8 inputs 18 GHz. They are also faster in switching inputs on those devices you don’t have 4K60 or HDR. 

I have 2x 18GHz cards and I use only one input per each so I can still use pip/pop when they are available. I have 3x 1080p sources on the remaining 9GHz cards one of which is a Radiance 2144 that has analog legacy devices connected to it.


----------



## Erod

skylarlove1999 said:


> Erod said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can the pixel shift not be turned off?[/quote @bobof already replied accurately. Conspiracy theorists believe just the presence of the extra optical element degrades the image quality. . But seriously some people do believe that it does. I don't know of any NX9 owners who use the 8k pixel shifting feature.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> So does the NX9 cast a noticeably better picture than the NX7? I know it has a better lens, but does that manifest in 4K images?
Click to expand...


----------



## skylarlove1999

Erod said:


> skylarlove1999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So does the NX9 cast a noticeably better picture than the NX7? I know it has a better lens, but does that manifest in 4K images?
> 
> 
> 
> I have not seen an NX 9 in person so I don't want to speak out of turn. From people who have seen both the consensus seems to be that there is a slightly sharper and Brighter Image for the nx9 but they said for the extra money it is not something that is really worth it in their opinions unless money is not a consideration. Obviously if you have the extra dough the JVC NX9 does throw a better image from all the people who have seen both.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


----------



## xchap2001

Hello guys hope all is well. 

I have a Radiance Pro with 18g cards and 9g cards. I can't get 18g working. says no input, but the 9g card works all the time i plug it in. i tried 0851 / 0850 code no luck.

I tried different hdmi cables all rated for 18g, 4.4.4. etc & 6 foot cable. no luck. i reset the Pro no luck. 

What are you guys using/or did to get 18g to work? I have a strato player and sony A1E set up to hdmi 3 which will display 444 18g n enhance mode. 

With the strato plugged direct to the t.v. it works , but with the Pro it doesn't. No Input. on 18g. Thanks Guys


----------



## Karl Maga

xchap2001 said:


> Hello guys hope all is well.
> 
> I have a Radiance Pro with 18g cards and 9g cards. I can't get 18g working. says no input, but the 9g card works all the time i plug it in. i tried 0851 / 0850 code no luck.
> 
> I tried different hdmi cables all rated for 18g, 4.4.4. etc & 6 foot cable. no luck. i reset the Pro no luck.
> 
> What are you guys using/or did to get 18g to work? I have a strato player and sony A1E set up to hdmi 3 which will display 444 18g n enhance mode.
> 
> With the strato plugged direct to the t.v. it works , but with the Pro it doesn't. No Input. on 18g. Thanks Guys


I had the same symptom when I first installed my Radiance Pro. I resolved it by changing to a Fiber HDMI cable (RUIPRO). Nothing else changed, but my certified HDMI cable, which worked at 25 feet length without the Radiance Pro, just couldn't get it done. Not a lick of issues since I bought the fiber cable.

What is the length of the cable from your Radiance Pro to display?


----------



## xchap2001

I have 2 from Rupio one fiber ,one regular , audio quest 6 feet


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> Just curious : Is your manual iris wide open or clamped down a bit?


Wide open for HDR. 

I have the iris two clicks down for SDR. I am liking SDR closer to the 108 (-ish) nit mastering level rather the the commercial theater 48 nit (14 Foot Lamberts) level.


----------



## Kris Deering

xchap2001 said:


> Hello guys hope all is well.
> 
> I have a Radiance Pro with 18g cards and 9g cards. I can't get 18g working. says no input, but the 9g card works all the time i plug it in. i tried 0851 / 0850 code no luck.
> 
> I tried different hdmi cables all rated for 18g, 4.4.4. etc & 6 foot cable. no luck. i reset the Pro no luck.
> 
> What are you guys using/or did to get 18g to work? I have a strato player and sony A1E set up to hdmi 3 which will display 444 18g n enhance mode.
> 
> With the strato plugged direct to the t.v. it works , but with the Pro it doesn't. No Input. on 18g. Thanks Guys


This sounds like something you should be talking with your dealer about. The whole point of working with a dealer is to ensure that they support the product and answer your questions! That is part of what you paid for with the product!!


----------



## xchap2001

Yes I though that I might be able to get some help here before I contact jim or pat. Thank you


----------



## Kris Deering

xchap2001 said:


> Yes I though that I might be able to get some help here before I contact jim or pat. Thank you


Your post is confusing. You say you have plugged to 18G and 9G and HDMI 3. What SPECIFIC outputs do you have on the Radiance? Is this a model with four outputs? If so, what output are you using for 9 and for 18? What is the output configuration for those, video only or both?

Did you buy this direct from Lumagen?


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 050120*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*050120*
- Posted 051220 
Fix for rs232 response when using "Full V3" option for rs232 status reports. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
(reposted 050720 to correct revision date reported onscreen) 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## xchap2001

Ok thanks guys I got it taking care of.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Has anyone seen micro stutters - video only - when using streamers such as Apple TV4K and Roku Ultra with the latest Firmware upgrades?
I have Both on Westworld (which is 2K material) and Malaficient 4K HDR on Disney Plus using the same streamers.
I sent a e mail to Jim and he advised I should look at my HDMI cables - which are the same in a rack system from previous firmware and no chance they have moved.
No micro stutters observed when using UHD BD or Kaleidescape.
Was just wondering others experience.


----------



## audioguy

I was reading the @Kris Deering review of the 4K Zappiti system. He noted the following:


> Zappiti system does not retain HDR metadata, which could cause issues with some displays.


Would this lack of HDR metadata affect the way my Lumagen does DTM? Or one of the newer JVC projector models that has DTM built in?


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> I was reading the @Kris Deering review of the 4K Zappiti system. He noted the following:
> Would this lack of HDR metadata affect the way my Lumagen does DTM? Or one of the newer JVC projector models that has DTM built in?


Last time I checked the Lumagen does pay some attention to the MaxCLL metadata presented; so if you have a test pattern with pixel data at 10000 nit for example but metadata being sent saying only 1000 nits MaxCLL you will see a different result at the top end of the luminance range (more clipped) than if the metadata was correct and stated 10000 nits.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> I was reading the @Kris Deering review of the 4K Zappiti system. He noted the following:
> Would this lack of HDR metadata affect the way my Lumagen does DTM? Or one of the newer JVC projector models that has DTM built in?


The Lumagen uses the metadata to establish some pads so it doesn't have to guess as much. It doesn't actually need to do this, but in testing we found that it helped with titles that are in the lower nit values for most of the movie (Blade Runner for example). So there could be some minor differences in performance. Zappiti tried to fix the metadata problem but it hasn't been yet.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> The Lumagen uses the metadata to establish some pads so it doesn't have to guess as much. It doesn't actually need to do this, but in testing we found that it helped with titles that are in the lower nit values for most of the movie (Blade Runner for example). So there could be some minor differences in performance. Zappiti tried to fix the metadata problem but it hasn't been yet.



Thank you. Possibly good news for me. I also have some audio calibration clients who have the the current JVC PJ's that have an internal DTM capability. I would assume that those projectors would lose some or all of the DTM capability if they were to purchase a Zappiti??


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> Thank you. Possibly good news for me. I also have some audio calibration clients who have the the current JVC PJ's that have an internal DTM capability. I would assume that those projectors would lose some or all of the DTM capability if they were to purchase a Zappiti??


JVC claims that their projector's don't rely on the metadata for their DTM solution, but I found that it did in fact change what mode was used. So at least in my testing, the metadata is used. But again, JVC claims it doesn't not.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> JVC claims that their projector's don't rely on the metadata for their DTM solution, but I found that it did in fact change what mode was used. So at least in my testing, the metadata is used. But again, JVC claims it doesn't not.



Thanks again and congrats on your new relationship with JVC on their RS4500 + Lumagen + DeepDive AV calibration package. Does that mean you may end up going back to an R4500 from your RS3000? Just curious.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> Thanks again and congrats on your new relationship with JVC on their RS4500 + Lumagen + DeepDive AV calibration package. Does that mean you may end up going back to an R4500 from your RS3000? Just curious.


Not really a relationship per se. JVC is just promoting the combination of a 4500+Lumagen+setup/calibration from Deep Dive AV as the best video performance from their lineup. They were going to include the RS3000 in the mix as well, as it applies just as much (really to the whole lineup). I'm sticking with my RS3000 though.


----------



## ht guy

Kris Deering said:


> Not really a relationship per se. JVC is just promoting the combination of a 4500+Lumagen+setup/calibration from Deep Dive AV as the best video performance from their lineup. They were going to include the RS3000 in the mix as well, as it applies just as much (really to the whole lineup). I'm sticking with my RS3000 though.


Well deserved, Kris! Nice.


----------



## gattorodolfo

Ash Sharma said:


> Has anyone seen micro stutters - video only - when using streamers such as Apple TV4K and Roku Ultra with the latest Firmware upgrades?
> I have Both on Westworld (which is 2K material) and Malaficient 4K HDR on Disney Plus using the same streamers.
> I sent a e mail to Jim and he advised I should look at my HDMI cables - which are the same in a rack system from previous firmware and no chance they have moved.
> No micro stutters observed when using UHD BD or Kaleidescape.
> Was just wondering others experience.


unfortunately also I have noticed micro stutters never seen before the latest firmware. the cables are ruipro and for two years now they have never given problems. this only happens with streaming content


----------



## Ash Sharma

gattorodolfo said:


> unfortunately also I have noticed micro stutters never seen before the latest firmware. the cables are ruipro and for two years now they have never given problems. this only happens with streaming content


If you install the previous firmware and the micro stutters go away please post and I will do the same.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## bobof

I've not seen this, watched a fair bit of Netflix in recent days. Worth noting I run with genlock on, which shouldn't ever have Radiance-added frame skips or doubling. If you don't run with genlock on you would always potentially see them at some point but I guess it is feasible that this has got more prevalent?

Worth noting too that there is a growing amount of 4k/24.000p content on the Netflix service. AppleTV cannot play this content correctly at 24.000p and instead plays it at 23.976p. This drops 1/1000 frames (or a frame approx every 42s) which looks like microstutters.
Other players may have the same issue or the reverse issue (24.000 playback instead of 23.976p). This might appear to fit the description of a microstutter.

There is an ever-growing and non-exhaustive list of titles here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...2-apple-tv-4k-lacks-support-24-000-video.html

Might be worth reporting what the Lumagen UI is saying for the inbound and outbound refresh rates when seeing the issues.


----------



## Des511

bobof said:


> I've not seen this, watched a fair bit of Netflix in recent days. Worth noting I run with genlock on, which shouldn't ever have Radiance-added frame skips or doubling. If you don't run with genlock on you would always potentially see them at some point but I guess it is feasible that this has got more prevalent?
> 
> Worth noting too that there is a growing amount of 4k/24.000p content on the Netflix service. AppleTV cannot play this content correctly at 24.000p and instead plays it at 23.976p. This drops 1/1000 frames (or a frame approx every 42s) which looks like microstutters.
> Other players may have the same issue or the reverse issue (24.000 playback instead of 23.976p). This might appear to fit the description of a microstutter.
> 
> There is an ever-growing and non-exhaustive list of titles here:
> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...2-apple-tv-4k-lacks-support-24-000-video.html
> 
> Might be worth reporting what the Lumagen UI is saying for the inbound and outbound refresh rates when seeing the issues.


Can I ask what setting you have Genlock on please.


----------



## bobof

Des511 said:


> Can I ask what setting you have Genlock on please.


I have mine set to Auto-Fast. Cards are all 18G, projector is JVC X7900, cable to PJ is Ruipro hybrid fibre 10m. Rack cables are all 2m monoprice 18G certified slim cables.

My AppleTV setup is different to some folk in that for AppleTV I run the ATV to the AVR (Arcam AVR550) and then video out of that to Lumagen. I only do that for the AppleTV to work around some audio issues I sometimes note on AppleTV with Atmos and audio muting / dropouts due to HDR metadata changes. It works for me, but accept it's not the most recommended of setups.

I should add I'm not recommending any of the above but it "works for me".


----------



## jrp

For micro-stutter, we have seen this sometimes be due to HDMI cabling. However, it can also be frame drops or repeats due to the mismatch being input and output rate as bobof suggests.

Video content really should be 23.98 or 59.94, and not 24.00 or 60.00. To eliminate output restarts going form 60.00 (OSD) to 59.94 (Content), our direct commands for 4k output turn "Rate Match" to Off. While 60.00 is a legal video rate, I consider it a mistake for any consumer content as it runs against defacto usage which is either 59.94 or 23.98 Hertz.

Unfortunately if sources are outputting video content a 24.00 and/or 60.00, and the drops/repeats bother you, you need to set "Rate Match" = On, to reduce the number of dropped frames. 

If you have not used a direct output mode code (MENU 087X) to manually set the output you can change this in the active output style (MENU  Output  Styles  Styles0  HDMI Format  Rate Match by default). However, if you have used one of the direct output mode codes (MENU 087X), the Rate Match is forced off and you need to undo the command with MENU 0870, and a Save. Then you would set the output rate using the Menu. Please note I am talking to Patrick about either new manual output mode command that do not turn off Rate Match, or a way to again enable Rate Match after using a MENU 087X manual output mode code.

The only way to completely eliminate the frame drops and repeats completely is to turn on Genlock for the rate(s) you notice with the "micro stutter." If you still see the frame drops/repeats with Rate Match = On, then you should try Genlock on using MENU  Input  Options  Genlock  (Off, Auto24-Normal, Auto24-Fast, Auto-Normal, Auto-Fast, command. Frame drops/repeats are more noticeable at 23.98 Hertz. If you do not notice them at 59.94 Hertz, try Auto24-Normal, and if you do notice them at 59.94 Hertz try Auto-Normal.

Genlock should eliminate the frame drops/repeats, but be aware of the following:

- If a 60.00 source is active and "Rate Match" is Off, the output is 59.94. Genlock will not lock on in this case, and so it will be disabled due to this small, but significant, difference.

- Genlock increases switching time. If you have a projector with a long lock on time (most do it seems), this will be a very noticeable increase.

- I recommend having one memory with Genlock Off (e.g. MEMA), and a second with Genlock On (e.g. MEMB). Then you can switch and channel surf as before using MEMA. Then when you get to a program you want to enable Genlock for, press Pause, then switch to MEMB, wait for the picture to return, then press Play.

- For sources that are mostly used for 24 Hertz content like Bluray players, I suggest you consider using the Radiance Pro's Output Setup Menu to program a Output Style for that specific input to always outputs 24/23.98. I program our Radiance Pro this way for our Oppo 203, and our Strato, players. Since I am always starting and stopping content this means I pay the projector HDMI restart time when I first select that input.

- If you have an Oppo 203, I suggest you consder programming the OSD to always output at 24 Hertz if you are like me and use it to view movie content. This allows the movie to start without changing the rate out of the player to the Pro.


----------



## Mike_WI

*JVC and Lumagen Team Up*

From AVS Insider Email
(glad to hear about collaboration)

*JVC and Lumagen Team Up For Unmatched HDR Performance*

In a recent press release, JVC announced it was teaming up with video processing powerhouse, Lumagen, to bring unparalleled video performance to JVC's native 4K DLA-RS4500 laser home theater projector. Chief among the upgrades offered is a reference HDR dynamic tonemapping solution which allows for frame by frame analysis and compensation. DTM elevates the already stellar performance of the RS4500 to a new level.

To get the most from this combination of hardware, both JVC and Lumagen recommend *Kris Deering* of Deep Dive AV for setup and calibration. While the RS4500 and Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor are intuitive enough for end-user setup, ensuring the absolute best performance requires a knowledgeable calibrator such as Kris to get the most from the hardware.

Kris Deering added that his "goal is to optimize the visual experience through advanced calibration and comprehensive system setup. The Deep Dive AV-JVC/Lumagen combination provides the best of both worlds: stunning picture quality and minimal operator intervention. Simply turn the system on, select an input, sit back and enjoy." 

The press release went on to state the specific performance upgrades the Lumagen processor adds:

1. Dynamic Tone Mapping for 4K HDR material – Dynamically analyzes HDR images on a frame-by-frame basis and automatically adjusts the brightness and color to optimize HDR performance for each scene, and each frame.

2. Superior 4K Upscaling – Lumagen is renowned for the quality of their No-Ring™ scaling. 

3. Advanced Calibration Capability – Allows for comprehensive 1D and 3D LUT calibration to extract the best possible performance from the JVC projector and any input source.

4. Custom sizing and aspect ratio geometry controls for optimal display of all content. 

5. Auto Aspect Ratio Selection for UltraWide Screens – Properly display any aspect ratio within the UltraWide screen automatically, preserving the source’s intended aspect ratio.

6. Non-Linear Stretch – Automatically adjusts 16:9, and higher, aspect ratio sources to fill an UltraWide screen.


----------



## Craig Peer

I feel extremely fortunate to have a JVC RS4500, a Lumagen Radiance Pro, a Panamorph DCR lens and to have had my system calibrated by Kris Deering too.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Craig Peer said:


> I feel extremely fortunate to have a JVC RS4500, a Lumagen Radiance Pro, a Panamorph DCR lens and to have had my system calibrated by Kris Deering too.


Not tempted to go to an RS3000, Craig?


----------



## Craig Peer

Ian_Currie said:


> Not tempted to go to an RS3000, Craig?


Not one bit. Why mess with things when everything is working so well. I'm 100% pleased with the picture now ! And I'm done with lamps.


----------



## SJHT

Makes you wonder if JVC is saying they are not currently building a successor to the 4500 and that this solution would be better anyway!


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## laggs

Mike_WI said:


> From AVS Insider Email
> (glad to hear about collaboration)
> 
> *JVC and Lumagen Team Up For Unmatched HDR Performance*
> 
> In a recent press release, JVC announced it was teaming up with video processing powerhouse, Lumagen, to bring unparalleled video performance to JVC's native 4K DLA-RS4500 laser home theater projector. Chief among the upgrades offered is a reference HDR dynamic tonemapping solution which allows for frame by frame analysis and compensation. DTM elevates the already stellar performance of the RS4500 to a new level.
> 
> To get the most from this combination of hardware, both JVC and Lumagen recommend *Kris Deering* of Deep Dive AV for setup and calibration. While the RS4500 and Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor are intuitive enough for end-user setup, ensuring the absolute best performance requires a knowledgeable calibrator such as Kris to get the most from the hardware.
> 
> Kris Deering added that his "goal is to optimize the visual experience through advanced calibration and comprehensive system setup. The Deep Dive AV-JVC/Lumagen combination provides the best of both worlds: stunning picture quality and minimal operator intervention. Simply turn the system on, select an input, sit back and enjoy."
> 
> The press release went on to state the specific performance upgrades the Lumagen processor adds:
> 
> 1. Dynamic Tone Mapping for 4K HDR material – Dynamically analyzes HDR images on a frame-by-frame basis and automatically adjusts the brightness and color to optimize HDR performance for each scene, and each frame.
> 
> 2. Superior 4K Upscaling – Lumagen is renowned for the quality of their No-Ring scaling.
> 
> 3. Advanced Calibration Capability – Allows for comprehensive 1D and 3D LUT calibration to extract the best possible performance from the JVC projector and any input source.
> 
> 4. Custom sizing and aspect ratio geometry controls for optimal display of all content.
> 
> 5. Auto Aspect Ratio Selection for UltraWide Screens – Properly display any aspect ratio within the UltraWide screen automatically, preserving the source’s intended aspect ratio.
> 
> 6. Non-Linear Stretch – Automatically adjusts 16:9, and higher, aspect ratio sources to fill an UltraWide screen.



Any idea if this can or will be implemented in the RS-1000, 2000 and 3000? I understand it has internal DTM but for those of us who prefer using a lumagen pro instead.


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## Craig Peer

laggs said:


> Any idea if this can or will be implemented in the RS-1000, 2000 and 3000? I understand it has internal DTM but for those of us who prefer using a lumagen pro instead.



Absolutely. Contact Kris Deering!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Makes you wonder if JVC is saying they are not currently building a successor to the 4500 and that this solution would be better anyway!



I’d bet that there is no replacement anytime soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following question regarding the latest firmware updates..... my Radiance Pro was calibrated for 1D & 3D LUT with LightSpace prior to the current firmware's ability to perform 1D LUT at 12 bit. If I upgrade to any version as of 042120 will the prior calibration be affected because of the new 12 bit precision for 1D LUT? That is: is the 12bit 1D LUT capability the default setting or does it need to be enabled via the menu interface? I'm holding off updating my firmware until I fully understand any possible consequences. Thanks!


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## thrang

laggs said:


> Any idea if this can or will be implemented in the RS-1000, 2000 and 3000? I understand it has internal DTM but for those of us who prefer using a lumagen pro instead.


Perhaps I’m reading the press release wrong, but there is no technology announcement here, other than re-stating the existing capabilities of the Radiance and 4500. I read it more as JVC endorsing a calibration solution as delivered by Kris utilizing both devices and his workflow/expertise.


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## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Perhaps I’m reading the press release wrong, but there is no technology announcement here, other than re-stating the existing capabilities of the Radiance and 4500. I read it more as JVC endorsing a calibration solution as delivered by Kris utilizing both devices and his workflow/expertise.


Correct. This is NOT a tech announcement at all. JVC had me do a speaking engagement for their dealers back in February and we discussed the limitations of the 4500 and I brought up what the Radiance brings to the table. They investigated it more and got a lot of feedback from me and others using the solution. They wanted to put something out there for their dealers that made them aware of this product synergy (4500/Lumagen) and wanted to be sure that they had an avenue for ensuring it was setup/calibrated properly (me). They asked Jim and I if we were okay with it and we said that was fine. Obviously this can apply to any of the JVC line, but they wanted to use it to stress that the 4500 is a great candidate given that it is more of a CI product and can benefit a lot from the Radiance. Obviously I do A LOT of JVCs with the Radiance outside of the 4500 (I have the 3000 with a Radiance/DCR in my own setup), but that is the product they wanted to emphasize to their dealers.


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## Mike_WI

Kris Deering said:


> Correct. This is NOT a tech announcement at all. JVC had me do a speaking engagement for their dealers back in February and we discussed the limitations of the 4500 and I brought up what the Radiance brings to the table. They investigated it more and got a lot of feedback from me and others using the solution. They wanted to put something out there for their dealers that made them aware of this product synergy (4500/Lumagen) and wanted to be sure that they had an avenue for ensuring it was setup/calibrated properly (me). They asked Jim and I if we were okay with it and we said that was fine. Obviously this can apply to any of the JVC line, but they wanted to use it to stress that the 4500 is a great candidate given that it is more of a CI product and can benefit a lot from the Radiance. Obviously I do A LOT of JVCs with the Radiance outside of the 4500 (I have the 3000 with a Radiance/DCR in my own setup), but that is the product they wanted to emphasize to their dealers.


I like it because it promotes Lumagen rather than cannibalizing with JVC internal DTM.
Thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kris Deering said:


> Correct. This is NOT a tech announcement at all. JVC had me do a speaking engagement for their dealers back in February and we discussed the limitations of the 4500 and I brought up what the Radiance brings to the table. They investigated it more and got a lot of feedback from me and others using the solution. They wanted to put something out there for their dealers that made them aware of this product synergy (4500/Lumagen) and wanted to be sure that they had an avenue for ensuring it was setup/calibrated properly (me). They asked Jim and I if we were okay with it and we said that was fine. Obviously this can apply to any of the JVC line, but they wanted to use it to stress that the 4500 is a great candidate given that it is more of a CI product and can benefit a lot from the Radiance. Obviously I do A LOT of JVCs with the Radiance outside of the 4500 (I have the 3000 with a Radiance/DCR in my own setup), but that is the product they wanted to emphasize to their dealers.



JVC Europe(UK) and one of their main projector distributors in UK has been doing a similar thing through myself for the last two years. Z1/RS4500 and Pro..is a classic combo done right. As is the N9/RS3000 and it's cheaper siblings...


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## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following question regarding the latest firmware updates..... my Radiance Pro was calibrated for 1D & 3D LUT with LightSpace prior to the current firmware's ability to perform 1D LUT at 12 bit. If I upgrade to any version as of 042120 will the prior calibration be affected because of the new 12 bit precision for 1D LUT? That is: is the 12bit 1D LUT capability the default setting or does it need to be enabled via the menu interface? I'm holding off updating my firmware until I fully understand any possible consequences. Thanks!


No effect at all on the calibration. The 1D LUT in the Radiance has ALWAYS been 12 bit precision. The limitation was the interface for the adjustment was limited to about 10 bit precision, so there wasn't a way to take full advantage of the precision there. The firmware fixed that. So future calibrations can take advantage of this when Calibration software supports it or if it is done manually.


----------



## steelman1991

Gordon Fraser said:


> JVC Europe(UK) and one of their main projector distributors in UK has been doing a similar thing through myself for the last two years. Z1/RS4500 and Pro..is a classic combo done right. As is the N9/RS3000 and it's cheaper siblings...



Glad you mentioned their siblings Gordon. Thought I was going to have to pony up for a new N9 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> No effect at all on the calibration. The 1D LUT in the Radiance has ALWAYS been 12 bit precision. The limitation was the interface for the adjustment was limited to about 10 bit precision, so there wasn't a way to take full advantage of the precision there. The firmware fixed that. So future calibrations can take advantage of this when Calibration software supports it or if it is done manually.


Thanks, Kris. This point was not clarified when I was speaking with Craig Rounds last night about updating my firmware from v011120 (when he calibrated in late January). He mentioned that I'd likely see a significant improvement in typical DTM with these updates, beyond benefiting just a few problematic scenes.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Thanks, Kris. This point was not clarified when I was speaking with Craig Rounds last night about updating my firmware from v011120 (when he calibrated in late January). He mentioned that I'd likely see a significant improvement in typical DTM with these updates, beyond benefiting just a few problematic scenes.


Your firmware is definitely a lot older than most, so I would agree that the DTM would benefit quite a bit from the latest update.


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## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Your firmware is definitely a lot older than most, so I would agree that the DTM would benefit quite a bit from the latest update.


My issue is that, since I don't have a laptop that's able to run the update program, I have to physically remove the Lumagen from by HT and bring it to my office PC. I've been waiting until there were further (truly observable) DTM improvements (relative to my typical Blu-Ray & streaming HDR habits) to warrant that disassembly.


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike_WI said:


> I like it because it promotes Lumagen rather than cannibalizing with JVC internal DTM.
> Thanks


The RS4500 doesn't have internal DTM, so it really benefits from the Lumagen. And, Chris Deutsch of JVC has seen the Radiance Pro's DTM on my RS4500 in my theater, so he knows how well it works !


----------



## Mike_WI

Craig Peer said:


> The RS4500 doesn't have internal DTM, so it really benefits from the Lumagen. And, Chris Deutsch of JVC has seen the Radiance Pro's DTM on my RS4500 in my theater, so he knows how well it works !


Ahh. Thanks. I didn't know that about RS4500.


----------



## Kelvin1965S

Gordon Fraser said:


> JVC Europe(UK) Z1/RS4500 and Pro..is a classic combo done right. As is the N9/RS3000 and it's cheaper siblings...


To be honest; I'm amazed at how good my (technically now 'ancient') X7500 looks since I (finally) got round to calibrating it with my Pro and setting up DTM properly: Even an 'old' JVC, plus a Pro in a suitably black environment is stunning. 

If I understand correctly, the 12 bit 1D LUT will give me some benefit if I adjust manually? I haven't updated to that firmware yet and was planning on doing some touching up on the greyscale, so I may as well do this update first.


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.

I have borrowed a Lumagen Radiance Pro from my friend to try it.
Do you have turning on sequence recommendation?
I have source(Apple TV 4k, blu-ray player) connected to HDMI input of Lumagen, HDMI Video of Lumagen to Sony VPL-VW695ES and Audio out only of Lumagen to Trinnov AL32(split video and audio HDMI signal).
What should be turned on first and then and last?
I ask about turning on sequence to make sure no HDMI handshaking problem.

Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Kurvenal

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> 
> I have borrowed a Lumagen Radiance Pro from my friend to try it.
> Do you have turning on sequence recommendation?
> I have source(Apple TV 4k, blu-ray player) connected to HDMI input of Lumagen, HDMI Video of Lumagen to Sony VPL-VW695ES and Audio out only of Lumagen to Trinnov AL32(split video and audio HDMI signal).
> What should be turned on first and then and last?
> I ask about turning on sequence to make sure no HDMI handshaking problem.
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


Jim Peterson recently posted some instructions that might be helpful to you: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-v...agen-radiance-pro-series-77.html#post59550202


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## jrp

docrog said:


> I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following question regarding the latest firmware updates..... my Radiance Pro was calibrated for 1D & 3D LUT with LightSpace prior to the current firmware's ability to perform 1D LUT at 12 bit. If I upgrade to any version as of 042120 will the prior calibration be affected because of the new 12 bit precision for 1D LUT? That is: is the 12bit 1D LUT capability the default setting or does it need to be enabled via the menu interface? I'm holding off updating my firmware until I fully understand any possible consequences. Thanks!


Updating to the latest release will not affect your current calibration.

Your calibration has 10-bit values in the processor's LUT memory locations. For your case the extra two bits are added as 0, and so do not change the levels at all.

I always recommend downloading the configuration to a PC as a back-up before updating, but this has nothing to do with the increase in 1D LUT precision.

So you can go ahead and do the update.


----------



## jrp

Kelvin1965S said:


> To be honest; I'm amazed at how good my (technically now 'ancient') X7500 looks since I (finally) got round to calibrating it with my Pro and setting up DTM properly: Even an 'old' JVC, plus a Pro in a suitably black environment is stunning.
> 
> If I understand correctly, the 12 bit 1D LUT will give me some benefit if I adjust manually? I haven't updated to that firmware yet and was planning on doing some touching up on the greyscale, so I may as well do this update first.


You can "touch up" a 1D LUT that was 10-bits and gain the extra two bits precision manually if you like. The biggest benefit is near black as the the percentage step size is larger there. So the 12-bits in the 1D LUT can help you get lower dE's near black, and brighter gray scale points as well.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Updating to the latest release will not affect your current calibration. Your calibration has 10-bit values in the processor's LUT memory locations. For your case the extra two bits are added as 0, and so do not change the levels at all. I always recommend downloading the configuration to a PC as a back-up before updating, but this has nothing to do with the increase in 1D LUT precision. So you can go ahead and do the update.


Thank you for that information, Jim. I've successfully updated firmware to v.050120 without any apparent glitches, I've looked throughout the user manual, but I'm unable to locate any information related to downloading my 4240 configuration to a PC (or uploading the saved configuration) from the Lumagen. Could you please point me to a recipe for those processes? I'd very much like to have that ability going forward.


----------



## JFR0317

http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities


----------



## bferbrache

docrog said:


> Thank you for that information, Jim. I've successfully updated firmware to v.050120 without any apparent glitches, I've looked throughout the user manual, but I'm unable to locate any information related to downloading my 4240 configuration to a PC (or uploading the saved configuration) from the Lumagen. Could you please point me to a recipe for those processes? I'd very much like to have that ability going forward.


Don't forget to save the file once it is downloaded - the utility doesn't do it automatically. Once you have downloaded the file you need to choose save file in the utility menu and give it a name such as '2020 May backup' 
I'm pretty sure I had to type the .RXD extension to the file name as well.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thank you for that information, Jim. I've successfully updated firmware to v.050120 without any apparent glitches, I've looked throughout the user manual, but I'm unable to locate any information related to downloading my 4240 configuration to a PC (or uploading the saved configuration) from the Lumagen. Could you please point me to a recipe for those processes? I'd very much like to have that ability going forward.


As JFR0317 says the config reader is here: http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=utilities

This runs in a similar way to a software update. Open the program, select the COM port and 230k BAUD. Click Download from Radiance. Once this is complete, you need to save the configuration to a file your PC.

To upload the configuration reverse these steps.


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## docrog

Thanks @JFR0317 & @jrp. I have downloaded that utility and will perform the back-up the next time that I update the firmware. Much appreciated!


----------



## danam

If you run a Windows 10 computer, you might (not sure) encounter a compatibility problem (nothing will happen), don't hesitate to activate the "Windows 8 compatibility" feature.
It worked perfectly for me.

=> right-click on the file then "Properties" then "Compatibility" tab, activate with "Windows 8".


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## docrog

danam said:


> If you run a Windows 10 computer, you might (not sure) encounter a compatibility problem (nothing will happen), don't hesitate to activate the "Windows 8 compatibility" feature. It worked perfectly for me. => right-click on the file then "Properties" then "Compatibility" tab, activate with "Windows 8".


Thanks, I'll keep my eye out for that issue. I've had no problems running the firmware updates either of the two previous times on my Windows 10 PC.


----------



## GerryWaz

danam said:


> If you run a Windows 10 computer, you might (not sure) encounter a compatibility problem (nothing will happen), don't hesitate to activate the "Windows 8 compatibility" feature.
> It worked perfectly for me.
> 
> => right-click on the file then "Properties" then "Compatibility" tab, activate with "Windows 8".



Didn't have to on my laptop. Worked just fine for me with Windows 10.


----------



## danam

It happened to me once, not doing an update but doing a backup of my configuration.
I double clicked on the file and nothing happened ... enabling the Windows 8 compatibility on the file did the trick.
Anyway, just a tip which can help just in case.


----------



## Ironman1718

When I choose 2:35 on the lumagen the picture dose not look right on my 2:40.1 screen. Looks overly stretched, if that makes since, everything is to large. Right now it connected to my Strato. any ideas on how to make it look correct on a 2.40 screen?

Thank you


----------



## Kris Deering

Applemike68 said:


> When I choose 2:35 on the lumagen the picture dose not look right on my 2:40.1 screen. Looks overly stretched, if that makes since, everything is to large. Right now it connected to my Strato. any ideas on how to make it look correct on a 2.40 screen?
> 
> Thank you


In the IO setup screen in the option menu, is your 2.35 button set to NEW or OLD? If it is new, it actually sets the aspect to 2.4, if it is old, it should be 2.35. If you use the auto detect, it will set it based on the incoming frame so you don't have to guess which is right.


----------



## bobof

In a similar vein, it would be quite nice to be able to make the auto aspect detection link 2.35 and 2.4 ratios and choose for only one of them to be used. The difference between the two can still on occasion be slightly twitchy and I'd quite happily settle for cropping anything 2.35 down to 2.4.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

1. Do most people use Lumagen between the processor and the display or do you directly connect your devices to the Lumagen (and use it as a HDMI switch) and feed the audio out to the processor? What is recommended for best performance?

2. Also, is this something that can be self installed by an 'prosumer' or is it recommended to go through a dealer?

3. Another question I have is regarding subtitles on streaming services like Netflix or Prime. Most of the times they overlap on the picture and bottom black bar. Is there a way to move them up with this?


----------



## bobof

nonstopdoc1 said:


> 1. Do most people use Lumagen between the processor and the display or do you directly connect your devices to the Lumagen (and use it as a HDMI switch) and feed the audio out to the processor? What is recommended for best performance?


Lumagen doing switching is recommended by manufacturer. In my own setup I've tried both and both work fine for me. Your mileage may vary depending on exactly what equipment you have.



nonstopdoc1 said:


> 2. Also, is this something that can be self installed by an 'prosumer' or is it recommended to go through a dealer?


Can be for sure, there are several owner / self-installer / operators in here - myself included. BUT if you don't have good calibration gear and the skills to use them you're missing out on a large part of the capabilities of the unit. The meters & SW you'd ideally want someone to use to calibrate your system through the Lumagen would have a retail cost of pretty much double a 4242. In my humble opinion not getting the benefit of the calibration capabilities on these is a crime... 



nonstopdoc1 said:


> 3. Another question I have is regarding subtitles on streaming services like Netflix or Prime. Most of the times they overlap on the picture and bottom black bar. Is there a way to move them up with this?


You can't move just the text relative to the image (that would be deep magic) but you can come up with a custom memory that zooms out slightly and shifts the image up the screen so the subtitles are displayed within a scope screen ( though you'll have some pillarboxing). If you don't care for the subtitles and are happy for them to be cropped off you can apply a digital mask to them instead which will stop them lighting up you frame (you can do that in a lot of PJs too though).


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> In a similar vein, it would be quite nice to be able to make the auto aspect detection link 2.35 and 2.4 ratios and choose for only one of them to be used. The difference between the two can still on occasion be slightly twitchy and I'd quite happily settle for cropping anything 2.35 down to 2.4.


Sounds like a good idea. I will mention it to Patrick.

Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## ht guy

nonstopdoc1 said:


> 1. Do most people use Lumagen between the processor and the display or do you directly connect your devices to the Lumagen (and use it as a HDMI switch) and feed the audio out to the processor? What is recommended for best performance?
> 
> 2. Also, is this something that can be self installed by an 'prosumer' or is it recommended to go through a dealer?
> 
> 3. Another question I have is regarding subtitles on streaming services like Netflix or Prime. Most of the times they overlap on the picture and bottom black bar. Is there a way to move them up with this?


1. You may find it advantageous to feed the video to the Lumagen and the audio to the processor, particularly if you have a small monitor hooked up to the pre/pro that you can use for sound calibration vs. firing up the projector.

2. I purchased mine used. I wiped the settings and did a "prosumer setup" (no calibration) and thought it (and my uncalibrated NX7) looked pretty good...until I got a calibration.


----------



## docrog

nonstopdoc1 said:


> 1. Do most people use Lumagen between the processor and the display or do you directly connect your devices to the Lumagen (and use it as a HDMI switch) and feed the audio out to the processor? What is recommended for best performance?


The advantage of using an AVR/processor as the switching device and having it feed video to the Lumagen is that you'll be able to continue to use the GUI. Using older AVRs had been associated with HDMI issues (and some potential for video degradation if the AVR's video processing circuitry could not be totally defeated), but I have ZERO problems running video sources initially through my Yamaha RX-A3080. I'm unable to predict how your Denon will interface.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> In a similar vein, it would be quite nice to be able to make the auto aspect detection link 2.35 and 2.4 ratios and choose for only one of them to be used. The difference between the two can still on occasion be slightly twitchy and I'd quite happily settle for cropping anything 2.35 down to 2.4.


You can do this in the aspect ratio setup, just do output to input and change what it does for either one. You can customize for every input aspect type.


----------



## Kris Deering

nonstopdoc1 said:


> 1. Do most people use Lumagen between the processor and the display or do you directly connect your devices to the Lumagen (and use it as a HDMI switch) and feed the audio out to the processor? What is recommended for best performance?
> 
> 2. Also, is this something that can be self installed by an 'prosumer' or is it recommended to go through a dealer?
> 
> 3. Another question I have is regarding subtitles on streaming services like Netflix or Prime. Most of the times they overlap on the picture and bottom black bar. Is there a way to move them up with this?


It is always recommended that you use the Lumagen for switching. It can work the other way, but YMMV quite a bit. 

It can be setup by a individual, but there is definitely a learning curve if you want to maximize all the features. Or you could buy it from a dealer that sets it up to your system before it ever arrives (I know a guy)

The Radiance cannot change the subtitles because they are generated by the content or the device. But you can compensate with different aspect ratios to preserve as much width as possible while making the subtitles easier to see.


----------



## SJHT

The device plays a key role. Even though I have a 16:9 screen, when I drop my top mask for 2.4 or whatever aspect, have the Lumagen drop the image to the bottom, the key for my setup is my Strato. Through my control system, I tell it to reconfigure as 2.4 or whatever aspect ratio. It then treats my screen accordingly and puts menus, subtitles, whatever as defined by the aspect ratio. Just like I had that size screen. Really cool feature. SJ


----------



## bobof

bobof said:


> In a similar vein, it would be quite nice to be able to make the auto aspect detection link 2.35 and 2.4 ratios and choose for only one of them to be used. The difference between the two can still on occasion be slightly twitchy and I'd quite happily settle for cropping anything 2.35 down to 2.4.


Kudos to the team at Lumagen, a few days after discussing this idea I've got a beta on my Radiance with the feature working with even more functionality than originally thought up (and some other tweaks). I don't know any other hardware maker as responsive as these guys.


----------



## Mike_WI

bobof said:


> Kudos to the team at Lumagen, a few days after discussing this idea I've got a beta on my Radiance with the feature working with even more functionality than originally thought up (and some other tweaks). I don't know any other hardware maker as responsive as these guys.


Smells like a new (public) FW update brewing...


----------



## Kris Deering

More on that. The vendor that supplies Lumagen with their HDMI chips FINALLY did an update to their own firmware which has (so far) fixed the audio drop out bug that persisted with content playing from the ATV4K that is Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos (mainly contained to titles from iTunes). I've tested this on quite a few cases that were notorious for dropouts and very repeatable without so much as a hitch. So great to see one of the lingering bugs that was a bit out of Lumagen's hands getting fixed finally!!


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> More on that. The vendor that supplies Lumagen with their HDMI chips FINALLY did an update to their own firmware which has (so far) fixed the audio drop out bug that persisted with content playing from the ATV4K that is Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos (mainly contained to titles from iTunes). I've tested this on quite a few cases that were notorious for dropouts and very repeatable without so much as a hitch. So great to see one of the lingering bugs that was a bit out of Lumagen's hands getting fixed finally!!


Yup, very pleased with that. I unplugged my AppleTV from my AVR input last night and routed it via the Lumagen in celebration (I don't get out much these days...)!. Likewise, so far seems to work well and has removed the issue with the glitching audio from what I can see.


----------



## dlinsley

@Mike_WI the new firmware is out if you want to make your usual posting


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 051820*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*FW 051820*
- Posted 052720 
New 18Ghz input chip firmware from manufacturer which fixes audio drops in some Apple TV videos that had Dolbyvision and Dolby Atmos. 
Added ability for auto-aspect to merge certain aspects together, these settings are under* Input: Options: Auto Aspect* . 
Added ability to set game mode (low latency) in newer displays that allow this type of control. 
Fixed a couple of cases of tearing when using new game mode setting. 
Also added status of game mode to Info page 3 after genlock status. 
Other small fixes. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware. 
Systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update as internal input chip firmware updates---if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time.


----------



## jrp

Note on the 051820 release:

This release has new microcode from the chip vendor for 18 GHz inputs that works around a bug in the AppleTV 4K where it changes the "static" HDR10 Metadata every 30 seconds or so, which was on occasion causing an audio dropout for Dolby Vision titles (converted to HDR10 by the AppleTV 4k - a nice feature) with ATMOS from the iTunes store (and perhaps some other stores as well - not sure).

This is the second attempt by our chip vendor to work around the AppleTV 4K bug. The first one fixed the issue but caused other issues. So far this release works in our testing. However, please let us know if you notice what you believe are differences/issues with this new 18 GHz input microcode versus any earlier release.

As always, thanks for your feedback.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

I updated 3 days ago so not on the newest release. But noticed the picture sometimes starts out blank now a few times and i have to rewind and forward to make it come back. It happened last night on netflix watching uncut gems. and on Hulu as well when starting a new episode sometimes. This didn't happen before the update. I hadn't updated for a few months though since Kris came and calibrated (btw it's just been an amazing picture with my BenQ LK990) especially in HDR.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> You, or your integrator, can contact Lumagen support for assistance.
> 
> ===
> 
> These power-on issues are often power-on order issues. We also see some streamers have three stats of being: On, Sleep, and Zombie. Zombie is too strong a word, and I say it tongue-in-cheek. However, for example, we have seen DirecTV, and AppleTV 4k, act differently going into the Pro if they go to sleep for a long period, such as overnight, versus a short period of time. Other devices, such as Bluray players and Roku, do not seem to have the third mode. We do not know exactly what is happening with the streamers that have the third mode, and it is likely an interaction between the streamer HDMI output chip/software, and the Radiance Pro input chip's internal processor.
> 
> We have added two feature options that appear to resolve this in the cases we know about. The first is you program the Pro internal power-up-input-select as something other than the input you normally select (Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select. Change both input selects). Then in that same menu enable the "delay select" which waits an additional 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the source is ready before activating the input at power on (only). Then the control system can select the input you want to view.
> 
> Finally we recommend you power on in the following order:
> 
> Projector/TV
> Wait 5 to 10 seconds for the projector to start its HDMI interface
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for the Pro to start its HDMI interfaces
> Sources
> Audio processor
> 
> Often no delays are needed. For example, my system turns everything on at the same time without delays. I do have it set to projector first, then the Pro, then the Trinnov, then sources, but as fast as it can send these commands. So, delays are not always necessary and depend on the specific equipment list.


i'm about to have my integrator reprogram, what about always leaving the radiance pro on? why turn it on/off? right now i have projector turning on, then receiver. but radiance is always on, as well as the nvidia shield. I guess it's always good to have them make the routine turn on the radiance.?

I have sources going to radiance, radiance to projector, with the audio hdmi from radiance to the receiver.


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> I updated 3 days ago so not on the newest release. But noticed the picture sometimes starts out blank now a few times and i have to rewind and forward to make it come back. It happened last night on netflix watching uncut gems. and on Hulu as well when starting a new episode sometimes. This didn't happen before the update. I hadn't updated for a few months though since Kris came and calibrated (btw it's just been an amazing picture with my BenQ LK990) especially in HDR.


This is something I've had in the past on AppleTV well before recent times and never fully got to the bottom of. It seems the AppleTV sometimes gets itself confused with respect to HDCP. Sometimes black screen on starting play, sometimes an HDCP error. 

I made my turn on routine for the AppleTV activity reboot the AppleTV (there is a command for it in the Harmony database) after switching to it, which seems 100% reliable. Of course, that dumps you at the AppleTV main menu every time you start the AppleTV activity.


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> i'm about to have my integrator reprogram, what about always leaving the radiance pro on? why turn it on/off? right now i have projector turning on, then receiver. but radiance is always on, as well as the nvidia shield. I guess it's always good to have them make the routine turn on the radiance.?
> 
> I have sources going to radiance, radiance to projector, with the audio hdmi from radiance to the receiver.


We do have a few people who leave the Pro on. Here is what to consider:

If you leave the Pro on all the time, then the Fan is on all the time. Since the fan is a mechanical device, it can wear out. For the 1U units the 60mm Sunon fan has a "Vapo Bearing" which we believe is reliable. So this may not be an issue long term, but it is still something to consider.

If you leave the Pro on all the time, the HDMI I/O chips continue to free run, and we have seen the I/O chip internal microprocessor get confused after being on a very long time (days to weeks). Not seen this much through, and so if leaving the Radiance Pro on works for you this is moot.

If you leave the Pro on all the time, and a source goes into what I like to call "Zombie Mode" (we believe we have seen this with DirecTV and AppleTV 4k), and there may be other devices) that this may look like "all is well" to the Pro input chip which can cause an issue since it will just be expecting good video and when the source comes out of Zombie mode, the Pro input chip may not be made aware that it should restart the connection. Again, this may not be an issue in your system and so may be moot. And you can include changing inputs on teh Pro to get it to restart the connection you want to use and this may resolve the Zombie source problam (assuming you have one).

So you can go ahead and try leaving the Pro on to see if it is a good solution for your system.


----------



## Mike_WI

I updated to FW 051820 last night.
(...and of course someone wanted to watch a movie, so didn't spend a lot of time playing around)
I was looking at the Auto Aspect settings (currently on OFF).
Can someone explain Auto Aspect: HDMI vs HDMI+Image?
Thanks


----------



## EVH78

Mike_WI said:


> I updated to FW 051820 last night.
> (...and of course someone wanted to watch a movie, so didn't spend a lot of time playing around)
> I was looking at the Auto Aspect settings (currently on OFF).
> Can someone explain Auto Aspect: HDMI vs HDMI+Image?
> Thanks


As far as I can say it is either aspect detection via 
HDMI = aspect flag via HDMI 
Image = frame detection by the Lumagen
Accordingly HDMI+Image does both (That´s what I leave on)


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> As far as I can say it is either aspect detection via
> HDMI = aspect flag via HDMI
> Image = frame detection by the Lumagen
> Accordingly HDMI+Image does both (That´s what I leave on)


One good reason to set to Image only instead of HDMI+Image is that some cable / satellite boxes force this to 16:9 even if the content isn't (like 2.35/2.4 letterbox) and the HDMI signal takes precedent - so in that situation your autoaspect looks broken. (in fact, I'm not even 100% sure there exists sensible signalling for scope over HDMI - at least not for HD).

I have mine set to Image to avoid such issues.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Auto Aspect = Image*



EVH78 said:


> As far as I can say it is either aspect detection via
> HDMI = aspect flag via HDMI
> Image = frame detection by the Lumagen
> Accordingly HDMI+Image does both (That´s what I leave on)





bobof said:


> One good reason to set to Image only instead of HDMI+Image is that some cable / satellite boxes force this to 16:9 even if the content isn't (like 2.35/2.4 letterbox) and the HDMI signal takes precedent - so in that situation your autoaspect looks broken. (in fact, I'm not even 100% sure there exists sensible signalling for scope over HDMI - at least not for HD).
> 
> I have mine set to Image to avoid such issues.


Thank you both for speedy messages.
This seems familiar. I suspect I tried Auto Aspect in the past and did have the issues you mentioned.
I'll try tonight with Auto Aspect = Image and see.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> One good reason to set to Image only instead of HDMI+Image is that some cable / satellite boxes force this to 16:9 even if the content isn't (like 2.35/2.4 letterbox) and the HDMI signal takes precedent - so in that situation your autoaspect looks broken. (in fact, I'm not even 100% sure there exists sensible signalling for scope over HDMI - at least not for HD). I have mine set to Image to avoid such issues.


Is there any relevance to this setting for my HT with a 16x9 AR? Content (irrespective of source) has always appeared to be correct, with pillars seemingly appropriate in thickness for any AR "narrower" than 16x9.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Is there any relevance to this setting for my HT with a 16x9 AR? Content (irrespective of source) has always appeared to be correct, with pillars seemingly appropriate in thickness for any AR "narrower" than 16x9.


I don't know enough about the kit in your system and how you are configured to know if the setting is relevant to you, sorry. There are certain TV boxes (I think UK Sky TV is one culprit) that use the flag in question. If that flag is used by the TV box to signal 16x9 then autoaspect may not appear to be working correctly for the scope ratios. If you are set to HDMI + image, and you use auto aspect, and don't have any issues with scope not detecting, I guess it is likely that your sources aren't behaving this way. In which case the setting is a "don't care".

It seems likely to me that this HDMI flag was perhaps more to do with 4:3 vs 16:9 and so is a bit of a relic ( a bit like the WSS widescreen signalling you used to get in SDR analogue video signals), but I really don't know enough about it. I am sure @jrp has more info about it and whether it might or might not be relevant in a particular system)


----------



## jazzrock

I have two issues to ask about .....one is an issue that I believe I saw discussed here some time ago but cannot find it. If someone would pint me in a general direction I would then read the info!

The one I believe was discussed before is regarding an off color or improper image when first powering everything up. Often but not always, when I first turn the system on to watch the Oppo as the source the image is a generally purple in color. To correct it I simply switch source to another source, I usually just select AppleTV and then immediately go back to the Oppo. The image is then fine. Not a big deal....just a buzz kill sometimes, especially when we have guests. 

I’m using Control4

Datasat, Sony 5000 Projector with the Pro doing all of the switching (all sources go into Pro). 

My guess is that the power up sequence may be the culprit but don’t know. Wanted to get inout before I got my dealer involved or tried to use C4 Home Composer myself as I am NOT well versed in programming at all!

My next issue is that about 70% of the time when I initially power up the system, the Pro will not power on. I must go into the C4 remote to manually turn it on. Again....not the end of the world but this in particular has become a real pain. Has anyone experienced anything similar?

Thx!


----------



## Kris Deering

Purple color means the display is setup in the wrong colorspace to start with (what its detecting). If it is feeding the 5000 directly, this shouldn't be a problem. I would look at the start up sequence to ensure that the Radiance comes on first, then the projector and then the other devices. 

As for not turning on, that could be something as simple as the Control4 programming. But without being there to troubleshoot, hard to say anything for sure.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Is there any relevance to this setting for my HT with a 16x9 AR? Content (irrespective of source) has always appeared to be correct, with pillars seemingly appropriate in thickness for any AR "narrower" than 16x9.


I doubt that Craig setup AA for your 16x9 setup. In your situation there is no need to use it. This is a feature designed for people using scope setups.


----------



## jazzrock

Kris Deering said:


> Purple color means the display is setup in the wrong colorspace to start with (what its detecting). If it is feeding the 5000 directly, this shouldn't be a problem. I would look at the start up sequence to ensure that the Radiance comes on first, then the projector and then the other devices.
> 
> As for not turning on, that could be something as simple as the Control4 programming. But without being there to troubleshoot, hard to say anything for sure.



Thx for responding, Chris.


----------



## audioguy

jazzrock said:


> I have two issues to ask about .....one is an issue that I believe I saw discussed here some time ago but cannot find it. If someone would pint me in a general direction I would then read the info!
> 
> The one I believe was discussed before is regarding an off color or improper image when first powering everything up. Often but not always, when I first turn the system on to watch the Oppo as the source the image is a generally purple in color. To correct it I simply switch source to another source, I usually just select AppleTV and then immediately go back to the Oppo. The image is then fine. Not a big deal....just a buzz kill sometimes, especially when we have guests.
> 
> I’m using Control4
> 
> Datasat, Sony 5000 Projector with the Pro doing all of the switching (all sources go into Pro).
> 
> My guess is that the power up sequence may be the culprit but don’t know. Wanted to get inout before I got my dealer involved or tried to use C4 Home Composer myself as I am NOT well versed in programming at all!
> 
> My next issue is that about 70% of the time when I initially power up the system, the Pro will not power on. I must go into the C4 remote to manually turn it on. Again....not the end of the world but this in particular has become a real pain. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
> 
> Thx!



Similar issue (but I use a JVC RS4500) but it only occurs if I select my Nvidia Shield first. If I select it first, 100% of the time, the screen is green so I switch to something else (typically Oppo) then back and all is well. It does not do that with any other source (Oppo, Apple TV). I will have to try this after I have started the system with another source and them switch to the Shield but if I recall correctly, it still does the same thing.


----------



## pjones

bobof said:


> I don't know enough about the kit in your system and how you are configured to know if the setting is relevant to you, sorry. There are certain TV boxes (I think UK Sky TV is one culprit) that use the flag in question. If that flag is used by the TV box to signal 16x9 then autoaspect may not appear to be working correctly for the scope ratios. If you are set to HDMI + image, and you use auto aspect, and don't have any issues with scope not detecting, I guess it is likely that your sources aren't behaving this way. In which case the setting is a "don't care".
> 
> It seems likely to me that this HDMI flag was perhaps more to do with 4:3 vs 16:9 and so is a bit of a relic ( a bit like the WSS widescreen signalling you used to get in SDR analogue video signals), but I really don't know enough about it. I am sure @jrp has more info about it and whether it might or might not be relevant in a particular system)


The latter is close to why I'm happy to have/use the "HDMI+Image" option, when playing DVDs on an Oppo with "source direct" output resolution (also for Blu-ray supplements that are in SD)—with the "HDMI" part enabled, the Radiance Pro automatically learns whether the pixel aspect for such 480i content is for 4:3 or 16:9 framing, and it will still auto-detect ARs like 2.40:1 from the image content. (I haven't had the TV box problem you mention, with Verizon FiOS.)


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> I doubt that Craig setup AA for your 16x9 setup. In your situation there is no need to use it. This is a feature designed for people using scope setups.


Thanks, Kris. Your answer is consistent with my expectation.


----------



## bobof

pjones said:


> The latter is close to why I'm happy to have/use the "HDMI+Image" option, when playing DVDs on an Oppo with "source direct" output resolution (also for Blu-ray supplements that are in SD)—with the "HDMI" part enabled, the Radiance Pro automatically learns whether the pixel aspect for such 480i content is for 4:3 or 16:9 framing, and it will still auto-detect ARs like 2.40:1 from the image content. (I haven't had the TV box problem you mention, with Verizon FiOS.)


That makes sense. Shows you how long it is since I cared about SD content!


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> Thanks, Kris. Your answer is consistent with my expectation.


I think you could use it to "drop" everything wider than 16:9 to the bottom of the screen, and get rid of the bottom black bar that way. I do that manually with lens shift and like it a lot, would be cool if it was automatic.

Lähetetty minun LM-G710 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


----------



## JFR0317

jrp said:


> Note on the 051820 release:
> 
> This release has new microcode from the chip vendor for 18 GHz inputs that works around a bug in the AppleTV 4K where it changes the "static" HDR10 Metadata every 30 seconds or so, which was on occasion causing an audio dropout for Dolby Vision titles (converted to HDR10 by the AppleTV 4k - a nice feature) with ATMOS from the iTunes store (and perhaps some other stores as well - not sure).
> 
> This is the second attempt by our chip vendor to work around the AppleTV 4K bug. The first one fixed the issue but caused other issues. So far this release works in our testing. However, please let us know if you notice what you believe are differences/issues with this new 18 GHz input microcode versus any earlier release.
> 
> As always, thanks for your feedback.


I installed the 51820 release this morning. I have an Apple TV 4K and an Nvidia Shield Pro connected to 18 GHz inputs on my Radiance Pro 4446. The Shield Pro outputs 4K HDR content to the Radiance Pro just fine. The Apple TV 4K is set to 4K SDR output but with rate and frame matching on. On the previous release 050120, with a 4K HDR movie from the iTunes store, the Apple TV would output 4K HDR 2020 23.98 to the Radiance Pro. With the 051820 release, it outputs Rec 709 SDR to the Radiance Pro. I reverted to the 050120 release this afternoon, and the Apple TV 4K outputs correctly. I had the same issue as above on the new release with Movies Anywhere and Netflix 4K content.

I have the 18 GHz output of the Radiance Pro connected to a Sony XBR-55X930E flat panel and the 9 GHz output of the Radiance Pro connected to a Sony 675 ES projector. The Apple TV 4K is on the most recent TV OS release13.5.


----------



## bobof

MDesigns said:


> I think you could use it to "drop" everything wider than 16:9 to the bottom of the screen, and get rid of the bottom black bar that way. I do that manually with lens shift and like it a lot, would be cool if it was automatic.


I don't use it as my screen masks, but I just checked and you can do that by setting a vertical shift in pixels for each aspect. Then if the aspect is detected it will get shifted automatically by the required number of pixels.


----------



## bobof

JFR0317 said:


> I installed the 51820 release this morning. I have an Apple TV 4K and an Nvidia Shield Pro connected to 18 GHz inputs on my Radiance Pro 4446. The Shield Pro outputs 4K HDR content to the Radiance Pro just fine. The Apple TV 4K is set to 4K SDR output but with rate and frame matching on. On the previous release 050120, with a 4K HDR movie from the iTunes store, the Apple TV would output 4K HDR 2020 23.98 to the Radiance Pro. With the 051820 release, it outputs Rec 709 SDR to the Radiance Pro. I reverted to the 050120 release this afternoon, and the Apple TV 4K outputs correctly. I had the same issue as above on the new release with Movies Anywhere and Netflix 4K content.
> 
> I have the 18 GHz output of the Radiance Pro connected to a Sony XBR-55X930E flat panel and the 9 GHz output of the Radiance Pro connected to a Sony 675 ES projector. The Apple TV 4K is on the most recent TV OS release13.5.


That's odd as I don't see this on my setup, it is a 4242 though with just a single 18G out. Just checked an HDR10 and a DV title from my itunes library, both play in HDR2020 out of the AppleTV4k.
My UI is set to 24p SDR, and they both switch to 24p HDR.

One thing to watch out for is sometimes the AppleTV can re-detect a different "display" on its output and when that happens you sometimes lose some of your settings (like the validated HDR formats for instance). Worth double checking in all the video out related menus in the AppleTV that it really is set correctly. Yo say "rate and frame matching on"; I guess that is just typo and you really mean "range and framerate matching"?


----------



## JFR0317

bobof said:


> That's odd as I don't see this on my setup, it is a 4242 though with just a single 18G out. Just checked an HDR10 and a DV title from my itunes library, both play in HDR2020 out of the AppleTV4k.
> My UI is set to 24p SDR, and they both switch to 24p HDR.
> 
> One thing to watch out for is sometimes the AppleTV can re-detect a different "display" on its output and when that happens you sometimes lose some of your settings (like the validated HDR formats for instance). Worth double checking in all the video out related menus in the AppleTV that it really is set correctly. Yo say "rate and frame matching on"; I guess that is just typo and you really mean "range and framerate matching"?


Yes, I meant range and frame rate. I do know the difference, LOL. Sorry for any confusion.

While I had the 051820 release on the Lumagen, I tried multiple different video output settings for the Apple TV 4K. I did check the settings before changing anything, and they had not changed from what I had benn using before. I also checked those settings after reverting to the 050120 release, and they were unchanged. I have the Apple TV UI set for 4K60 SDR.


----------



## bobof

JFR0317 said:


> Yes, I meant range and frame rate. I do know the difference, LOL. Sorry for any confusion.
> 
> While I had the 051820 release on the Lumagen, I tried multiple different video output settings for the Apple TV 4K. I did check the settings before changing anything, and they had not changed from what I had benn using before. I also checked those settings after reverting to the 050120 release, and they were unchanged. I have the Apple TV UI set for 4K60 SDR.


Although I'm sure it said "Match content Range and Frame Rate" at the top level of Video and Audio settings, did you actually go down into the separate menu for "Match Content"? When I did the upgrade and reconnected the AppleTV all the HDR formats were in there waiting to be OK'd. 
I had to go through each one (4k60,4k50,4k24) and enable HDR and test for each one for them to leave, and also test some of the SDR settings.
With Match rate fully configured you will have just two entries on that page (Match Dynamic Range and March Frame Rate). 
If you have a list of resolutions in there, then until they are individually tested those resolutions won't cause a switch of dynamic range or framerate.


----------



## ccool96

JFR0317 said:


> I installed the 51820 release this morning. I have an Apple TV 4K and an Nvidia Shield Pro connected to 18 GHz inputs on my Radiance Pro 4446. The Shield Pro outputs 4K HDR content to the Radiance Pro just fine. The Apple TV 4K is set to 4K SDR output but with rate and frame matching on. On the previous release 050120, with a 4K HDR movie from the iTunes store, the Apple TV would output 4K HDR 2020 23.98 to the Radiance Pro. With the 051820 release, it outputs Rec 709 SDR to the Radiance Pro. I reverted to the 050120 release this afternoon, and the Apple TV 4K outputs correctly. I had the same issue as above on the new release with Movies Anywhere and Netflix 4K content.
> 
> 
> 
> I have the 18 GHz output of the Radiance Pro connected to a Sony XBR-55X930E flat panel and the 9 GHz output of the Radiance Pro connected to a Sony 675 ES projector. The Apple TV 4K is on the most recent TV OS release13.5.




I had the same issue. But all you need to do is go into the “Match Content” setting and it will show all the HDR formats. HDR60HZ, HDR50HZ, HDR30HZ, HDR24HZ as “unverified”. Click on each one and let the system test each, and then it will work just fine. 

This is the first time I had to “reverify” these options in a long time. I suspect it had to do with the HDMI microcode update. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JFR0317

ccool96 said:


> I had the same issue. But all you need to do is go into the “Match Content” setting and it will show all the HDR formats. HDR60HZ, HDR50HZ, HDR30HZ, HDR24HZ as “unverified”. Click on each one and let the system test each, and then it will work just fine.
> 
> This is the first time I had to “reverify” these options in a long time. I suspect it had to do with the HDMI microcode update.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thank you very much! I don't remember doing that before, but I will certainly do so now.


----------



## JFR0317

bobof said:


> Although I'm sure it said "Match content Range and Frame Rate" at the top level of Video and Audio settings, did you actually go down into the separate menu for "Match Content"? When I did the upgrade and reconnected the AppleTV all the HDR formats were in there waiting to be OK'd.
> I had to go through each one (4k60,4k50,4k24) and enable HDR and test for each one for them to leave, and also test some of the SDR settings.
> With Match rate fully configured you will have just two entries on that page (Match Dynamic Range and March Frame Rate).
> If you have a list of resolutions in there, then until they are individually tested those resolutions won't cause a switch of dynamic range or framerate.


Now I understand. Thanks!


----------



## JFR0317

I just updated again to 051820 and then went through the verification options that showed up. All were verified, and everything seems to be working appropriately now. Thanks very much for the help.


----------



## bobof

JFR0317 said:


> I just updated again to 051820 and then went through the verification options that showed up. All were verified, and everything seems to be working appropriately now. Thanks very much for the help.


Awesome. Enjoy!


----------



## Ash Sharma

gattorodolfo said:


> unfortunately also I have noticed micro stutters never seen before the latest firmware. the cables are ruipro and for two years now they have never given problems. this only happens with streaming content


My Kaleidescape remains unaffected with Micro Stutters no matter what the firmware.

My Saga of Stutters on the new Firmware continues.
If I roll back the tapes - AFTER 041220 - I noticed micro Stutters on my Roku Ultra.
My Kaleidescape, Sony UHD BD 1000ES and Apple and TIVO 4K No Issues.
As I progressed with newer firmwares the problem got worse and worse.
In Firmware 050120 - Even my UHD BD Player had huge stutters - not micro anymore.

Rolled back the firmware to 041120 - And I am good with all sources except Roku which has very little and occasional micro stutters - something I can live with.

I do not to get this resolved when I have time as I hate to not enjoy the improvements of the new firmwares..

In Jim Petersons defense he wants mt to turn on Genlock before anything can be concluded and I have not yet.

I am relying on Lumagen's great support to get through this annoying issue.

And am even more a fan of Kaleidescape as that source is bullet proof.


----------



## LGJr

*Pro 4242 Non-responsive*

Hello,

Turned on HT system this morning to sound and No picture. Turned on/off a few times to no avail. The Lumagen only responds to on/off commands. Would not connect to laptop. Unplugged with no change, had to unplug and plug back in to download latest firmware and user settings. Tried factory reset(0999) with no luck. Unplugged hdmi cables and changed inputs on tv still no results. Any help/ideas would be appreciated.

Update: After further testing, when I unplugged output 1& 2 and only plugged in #2 for video I got a picture and the unit was responsive to other inputs. When I plug in the hdmi for sound output#1 the video goes away and I get only sound and the unit becomes unresponsive again. To get picture back I have to unplug both and only plug in #2 .

Update: Rolled back to previous firmware and did not solve problem.

Update: Problem seemingly solved. Using Pro as switcher to Emotiva XMC1 hdmi #1 for sound with XMC connected to hdmi hdmi 3 on television(CX77oled) for onscreen setup menu. Pro connected to hdmi#2 on tv for picture. For some reason I had to switch the Emotiva to hdmi #1 for picture and sound to work at the same time, also; changed hdmi #2 on tv to pcm instead of bitstream. With Emotiva connected to hdmi #3 on the tv for setup, the tv would only display black screen and Pro would only respond to on/off commands from remote. Cec not enabled on either device. Reloaded latest firmware and user settings.


----------



## thrang

For me, turning the Radiance on last has been reliable for several months. With the latest firmware, the Radiance does not pass video on initial boot sequence until I power cycle it or perform a ALT/PREV sequence.

Will investigate further, but this is what I’m seeing atm....


----------



## dlinsley

Ash Sharma said:


> If I roll back the tapes - AFTER 041220 - I noticed micro Stutters on my Roku Ultra.
> ...
> Rolled back the firmware to 041120 - And I am good with all sources except Roku which has very little and occasional micro stutters - something I can live with.


I've had the opposite experience. For the past two years I've had green/purple tearing and audio drop outs when my 18G output from the Radiance was connected to my Anthem receiver and then forwarded on to my JVC projector, but only with the Roku Ultra as source. Incoming rate didn't matter, 23.97, 24, 59.97, 60Hz. Roku direct to the Anthem, or 18G out to projector were fine, as were Oppo 203 input even at the same resolution / rate etc as the Roku. Since I run a DCR lens I also switched from 4096 output to 3840 just to ensure it wasn't incompatibility on the Anthem, but same.

Since 042820 it has been perfect! I wonder if there was a Roku update at this time too.


----------



## docrog

ccool96 said:


> But all you need to do is go into the “Match Content” setting and it will show all the HDR formats. HDR60HZ, HDR50HZ, HDR30HZ, HDR24HZ as “unverified”. Click on each one and let the system test each, and then it will work just fine.


On which device would you find all of the HDR formats to be verified under "Match Content"? Thanks!


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> On which device would you find all of the HDR formats to be verified under "Match Content"? Thanks!


It's an AppleTV UI menu option. Sometimes Apple decide you have a new display and should really check out your system before it plays content automatically at what it thinks has potential to be a resolution that your display says it does but in reality might not. The AppleTV is very pessimistic (perhaps rightly so) of whether a TV actually does what it's EDID says it should. I guess they've erred on the side of caution as getting this wrong means support calls due to no video.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> It's an AppleTV UI menu option. Sometimes Apple decides you have a new display and should really check out your system before it plays content automatically at what it thinks has potential to be a resolution that your display says it does but in reality might not. The AppleTV is very pessimistic (perhaps rightly so) of whether a TV actually does what it's EDID says it should. I guess they've erred on the side of caution as getting this wrong means support calls due to no video.


Thanks. I'm unable to find that sub-menu on my ATV4K. I have the setting at match all content with [email protected] highlighted for my NX7.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks. I'm unable to find that sub-menu on my ATV4K. I have the setting at match all content with [email protected] highlighted for my NX7.


On the line that says "match content" and says for example range and frame rate, if you press ok it takes you to a screen with dynamic range and frame rate as separate menu items to select. If you have resolutions which have not been tested (IE the Apple TV won't switch to them automatically) then they will appear on that page. If that page only has the two aforementioned options then all rates and resolutions claimed by the EDID the appletv has seen will be available for match content.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

I'm on 050120 and the lumagen for some reason set output to 480p twice now when I turned on my system. I changed it back to auto 2. Also it seems to now go to input 5 vs staying on input 1. Not sure whats going on. But it'll just switch input when the Nvidia is on screensaver mode (it never sleeps). Never had this issue before if the lumagen switching inputs.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> On the line that says "match content" and says for example range and frame rate, if you press ok it takes you to a screen with dynamic range and frame rate as separate menu items to select. If you have resolutions which have not been tested (IE the Apple TV won't switch to them automatically) then they will appear on that page. If that page only has the two aforementioned options then all rates and resolutions claimed by the EDID the appletv has seen will be available for match content.


I have followed your advice, but it seems that, ultimately, I'm only able to have one video content selected (checked). Since 4K HDR @60 is supported at chroma 4:2:2, it appears that any other, less bandwidth demanding, resolution is also supported. I've tried checking off lower resolutions (for example, 4K HDR @24) and subsequently checking off 4K HDR @60, only to find that 4K HDR @24 is again on the list of "other formats", without the check mark persisting.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I have followed your advice, but it seems that, ultimately, I'm only able to have one video content selected (checked). Since 4K HDR @60 is supported at chroma 4:2:2, it appears that any other, less bandwidth demanding, resolution is also supported. I've tried checking off lower resolutions (for example, 4K HDR @24) and subsequently checking off 4K HDR @60, only to find that 4K HDR @24 is again on the list of "other formats", without the check mark persisting.


I'm not sure if you are trying to solve a problem here or not, or just looking for the options. It's hard to follow the sequence of what you've written.

The information I posted is only relevant if you are in the situation the OP on the matter was in - that they thought they had match rate and range fully enabled but weren't getting HDR out of the AppleTV when they thought it should switch (and the reason why was because of the unverified resolution / rate / range combinations in the submenu, and the solution proposed fixed that issue).

I'm not sure of the exact logic employed by the AppleTV in putting the resolution combinations in that list to be verified. I usually have my AppleTV UI set to SDR24p, and I occasionally see that they appear in that list to be verified if I've been fiddling with cables etc. It seems instead of verifying them manually one by one you can also set the AppleTV to HDR60p and that removes the entries from the list (for me), and then go back and set to SDR24p and they stay verified (seemingly). It's quicker than verifying them one by one.

But as I say, I'm not sure if you're trying to solve a problem or not. 
If there is an issue with your system please post exactly what are the scenarios that aren't working and I'll try to help. 
If you're just observing that the behaviour of the AppleTV is a bit quirky around the various menus for setting up these options, I'd be inclined to agree a bit, though I'm sure it made sense to someone somewhere...


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> I'm not sure if you are trying to solve a problem here or not, or just looking for the options. It's hard to follow the sequence of what you've written.
> 
> The information I posted is only relevant if you are in the situation the OP on the matter was in - that they thought they had match rate and range fully enabled but weren't getting HDR out of the AppleTV when they thought it should switch (and the reason why was because of the unverified resolution / rate / range combinations in the submenu, and the solution proposed fixed that issue).
> 
> I'm not sure of the exact logic employed by the AppleTV in putting the resolution combinations in that list to be verified. I usually have my AppleTV UI set to SDR24p, and I occasionally see that they appear in that list to be verified if I've been fiddling with cables etc. It seems instead of verifying them manually one by one you can also set the AppleTV to HDR60p and that removes the entries from the list (for me), and then go back and set to SDR24p and they stay verified (seemingly). It's quicker than verifying them one by one.
> 
> But as I say, I'm not sure if you're trying to solve a problem or not.
> If there is an issue with your system please post exactly what are the scenarios that aren't working and I'll try to help.
> If you're just observing that the behaviour of the AppleTV is a bit quirky around the various menus for setting up these options, I'd be inclined to agree a bit, though I'm sure it made sense to someone somewhere...



Thanks, as always, for your input. No, I'm not having any issues with various resolutions in my ATV4K environment with my resolution being 4K HDR @60 Hz; all app content plays without audio or video glitches that I'm aware of (other than video dropping from some Amazon Video content which predated the purchase of my RP 4240). Having followed the recent discussion, I was only trying to discover where the location for various resolution options (other than within the framework with which I was familiar) might be located to be individually selected, since (no matter what I had previously done) there only seemed to be the option of selecting one resolution at a time; the list of various other resolutions remained unchanged. I hope that this clears up any confusion that my prior queries may have caused.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks, as always, for your input. No, I'm not having any issues with various resolutions in my ATV4K environment with my resolution being 4K HDR @60 Hz; all app content plays without audio or video glitches that I'm aware of (other than video dropping from some Amazon Video content). Having followed the recent discussion, I was only trying to discover where the location for various resolution options (other than within the framework with which I was familiar) might be located to be individually selected, since (no matter what I had previously done) there only seemed to be the option of selecting one resolution at a time; the list of various other resolutions remained unchanged. I hope that this clears up any confusion that my prior queries may have caused.


Ok, that is clearer.
Well, you won't find them if the Apple TV considers them to all be verified, which if you typically run the UI at 4k60HDR is likely the case  

So you don't feel left out (!)  I'll post a picture later of where the options are when the box is in the state where they need accepting. 

For what it is worth the reason to consider running the AppleTV UI at 24p (if you don't mind the poor performing screensavers and jerky UI motion) is that content startup is much quicker without the screen blanking for content that matches. For me I still tend to watch more SDR than HDR (just) so I have it set to SDR24. On the flipside though if you use any apps that don't support rate switching and they show 60p content it can be a poor option.


----------



## jrp

A few comments on recent posts:

If you see incorrect colors on power on this in our experience is caused by sources going into what I refer to as "Zombie" mode when they are in sleep mode for an extended period. I posted on this earlier.

What we believe is happening is when these sources first go into sleep mode, if you turn the system back on shortly after, all is well. However, if left in sleep mode for a long period some parts of the source's HDMI output interface are shut down, but not properly so. So in this case the source's output appears good to the Radiance Pro but it is not. So the Pro is not getting the correct format data from the source. To work around this you can select a different input for the Pro to power up on and turn the initial input "delay select" on. These are in the Menu.Other.On/Off Setup.Input Select menu. Then after the Radiance Pro is turned on, when the control system selects the source the user wants, the Pro restarts the connection from the source and the colors are correct.

==== 

Concerning AppleTV 4k, there are a lot of posts to sort through. Here is my summary:

In the most recent release, the Pro's EDID reported back to sources had a minor change. Apple has taken the very conservative approach to reset all settings if it sees any change in the down-stream EDID. As mentioned by others, this is likely because they believe it will reduce support load, and also to err on the "at least have a picture" side of the equation. We have seen EDIDs being wrong and I can see why Apple choose to not automatically believe down-stream EDIDs.

The Radiance Pro takes a different approach. It uses the down-stream EDID, but allows the user to override if necessary. This maycreate more support calls for us, but also means the Pro is tolerant of EDID changes. It even responds properly to dynamic EDID changes in the devices on the Pro output (signaled by Hot Plug toggling). We believe this is the better approach but certainly understand why Apple choose the way they did.

NOTE: You will definitely want to use the Radiance Pro manual EDID features to enable HDR, Rec2020, 3D, and audio modes. This will allow the Pro to always report the same EDID back to sources, including the AppleTV 4k. In the default "Auto" mode if the downstream audio processor or projector/TV is not currently reporting EDID, this will mean the EDID reported back to sources by the Pro will change once they become active and could trigger the AppleTV 4k's "mode reset" describe above.

So, if you notice your AppleTV not outputting the formats you previous enabled, an EDID change from the Radiance Pro is likely the cause and you will have to select your desired modes again using the AppleTV 4k menu.

====

One poster said his Radiance Pro was not working, and found that disconnecting and reconnecting cables restored operation.

What we believe this situation is caused by an HDMI chip in one of the devices being in a confused state. In this case I believe it was the TV but can't be certain. A confused HDMI device causes the interface to the Pro to be in a constant "retry" state, which then generates a large number of interrupts in the Radiance Pro, which keeps it from being able to do anything but respond to all the interrupts. We have identified some of these "run away interrupt" cases and have added code to start ignoring the interrupts if too many occur. The poster's case seems to be a new case we have not discovered. Also note that if the source or device on the Pro's output is retrying, it is not passing HDMI and the system will not work.

We have seen projectors and audio processors get so confused that wall power needed to be disconnected to get them working again. We have also seen sources get in a confused state, to the point where the only way to get them working again was to pull wall power. The Radiance Pro HDMI chips have their own microprocessor and so it is possible for them to be in a confused stats as well. We have actually had to add FPGA code to detect cases when the HDMI input chips were sending bad video, but were reporting "all is well" to the Radiance Pro's main microprocessor.

Our recommendation is that, if your working system stops working correctly, you remove and restore wall power to *all* devices so that all devices can do a "clean boot." If there are no hardware fails this should get your system up and running.

==== 

Concerning Auto Aspect and the use of the HDMI Info Frame flag for aspect ratio:

The HDMI Info Frame Aspect Ratio feature is limited, and improperly implemented by some devices.

The HDMI Aspect Info Frame can be used to determine 4:3 versus 16:9, *if* the source implementation is correct. We see that in the USA sources general get the 4:3 versus 16:9 correct, but there are devices in Europe that get this wrong. This is why the Radiance Pro auto-aspect ratio feature has options for "HDMI + image" and just "image."

The Pro assumes the source raster is 4:3 for SD, and 16:9 for HD and UHD. So the "HDMI aspect" is not of much use. Lumagen now recommends using the "image" (only) mode for auto-aspect to avoid issues with sources getting the aspect info-frame data wrong.

==== 

Concerning Ash's "micro-stutters:"

Too refresh what I said before, we have seen this be a connection issue where the projector is not sync'd to the HDMI signal and so drops signal on occasion which can cause such an issue. If the issue is more than a "micro-stutter" a better HDMI cable is likely the only solution. This is not likely in Ash's system as I discuss below.

However, you can test for if you see "micro-stutters" on your projector if you have a 4K TV available (since they tend to have better HDMI inputs than projectors). Connect the TV using a 2 meter 18 GHz certified cable on the Pro output in place of the projector. See if you notice the "micro-stutters." If not then this indicates the solution is likely better interconnect to your projector (or there may be an issue in the projector itself).

We have also seen dropped or repeated frames due to a mismatch between the source input vertical rate and the output video rate be reported as a "stutter." For example with "rate match off" if a source makes the poor choice of sending video at 60.00 Hertz, the Pro output remains at 59.94 Hertz. In this case there will be a dropped frame every 16.67 seconds. If you are sensitive to this you would see a "micro-stutter" every 16 seconds.

Since there are no "micro-stutters" with the Strato in Ash's system, this to me means the Pro is working correctly, even once he loads the latest release. The good news here is this tends to eliminate the HDMI cable to the projector as an issue in Ash's system. Since the output rate from the Strato is the expected 23.98 or 59.94 for content, it seems likely the streamers having the "micro-stutter" issue are not outputting at the normal 23.98 or 59.94 rate, or perhaps there is an issue on the source to Pro input connection for the other devices.

Ash had Rate Match Off which likely contributed to his issue. I helped him enable Rate-match, and asked him to test with Genlock on. I don't have further reports on this though.

NOTE: If you enable Genlock, and it reports its status as off, it means the source is out of the normal range for video and the Genlock cannot lock on to it. This in turn means dropped or repeated frames.


----------



## dlinsley

Any other Roku Ultra users having an issue with getting correctly colored video with 051820? I've reported my issue to Lumagen, but if I start on any input other than my Roku and then switch to it the video appears to lack yellow. The only fix is to unplug the HDMI cable for that input, ALT+PREV only seems to restart the output and not also the input, and switching inputs and back either.

After the Apple TV fix, I was planning on buying one today to get Atmos in Netflix in my theater but then the 24Hz dropping frames thread popped on the Active Topics sidebar and so that is out.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> After the Apple TV fix, I was planning on buying one today to get Atmos in Netflix in my theater but then the 24Hz dropping frames thread popped on the Active Topics sidebar and so that is out.


Unfortunately Netflix seem to really be stepping up a gear on 24.000p content - particularly their newer Netflix originals with Atmos. It's impossible to recommend the AppleTV for playing them back really due to the dropped frames issue every 42s. Only folk who are cadence-blind and happy to watch stuff made at ~24p at ~60p with the telecine conversion should really consider it as a Netflix box.

It seems probably the only current device with the capability to play these titles correctly with the full benefit of Atmos is the Shield, though if you want the framerate to be selected automatically that involves jumping through its own set of hoops with a 3rd party solution. I've not got a shield because of that.

When I want to watch something without being bothered by the frame drops these days I reach for my old Samsung UHD player, but that lacks Atmos. I might get a Shield and leave it set to 24.000p and just use it for that. But really, I mean, the mind boggles that this is what we've got to in the 3rd decade of the 21st century.

They only had to work out how to play video properly. Instead I could control my lights using my voice and funny shaped TV remote, but I can't watch the latest movies without a glitch every 42s...


----------



## ShadeRF

I'm wondering if I need to experiment with my device delays when it comes to my Nvidia Shield (2019 pro). Its basically hit or miss whether the audio outputs. I always get video but more times than not I have to restart my Marantz SR6011 and the Lumagen to get audio working after a fresh system boot. Nvidia Shield is going directly to the Lumagen and using audio out to the receiver for audio.


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> A few comments on recent posts:
> 
> 
> Concerning Ash's "micro-stutters:"
> 
> Too refresh what I said before, we have seen this be a connection issue where the projector is not sync'd to the HDMI signal and so drops signal on occasion which can cause such an issue. If the issue is more than a "micro-stutter" a better HDMI cable is likely the only solution. This is not likely in Ash's system as I discuss below.
> 
> 
> Ash had Rate Match Off which likely contributed to his issue. I helped him enable Rate-match, and asked him to test with Genlock on. I don't have further reports on this though.
> 
> NOTE: If you enable Genlock, and it reports its status as off, it means the source is out of the normal range for video and the Genlock cannot lock on to it. This in turn means dropped or repeated frames.


,
Jim called me on Friday - face timed and walking me through resolving this issue.
4 steps were taken with Jim's help on the phone - all in 15 minutes spent:
1. Rate Match turned to ON
2. Genlock Turned On 
3. Lowered the 18GBPS setting of HDMI to 9 (as per Jim for Sony 5000 that is the best way to go).
4. Fan speed increased to 10.

I am happy to report that all my Stutter issues are gone - Roku, AppleTV and UHD BD (I never had any issues with K Escape).

The time to sync with different sources has now noticeably increased as Jim had warned me before turning Gen Lock ON.

I am a happy camper - this is why Lumagen will be hard to beat customer service os off the charts good.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> When I want to watch something without being bothered by the frame drops these days I reach for my old Samsung UHD player, but that lacks Atmos. I might get a Shield and leave it set to 24.000p and just use it for that. But really, I mean, the mind boggles that this is what we've got to in the 3rd decade of the 21st century.
> 
> They only had to work out how to play video properly. Instead I could control my lights using my voice and funny shaped TV remote, but I can't watch the latest movies without a glitch every 42s...


They are all so close, but it seems no one can get fully there. The Roku plays everything except no Atmos from Netflix. Atmos works great from Amazon and Vudu, so there doesn't appear to be any technical limitation. Some Netflix shows like Stranger Things 3 play at 59.94Hz and so fixing at 24 doesn't help, though I'm not 100% if they have Atmos.


----------



## docrog

dlinsley said:


> They are all so close, but it seems no one can get fully there. The Roku plays everything except no Atmos from Netflix. Atmos works great from Amazon and Vudu, so there doesn't appear to be any technical limitation. Some Netflix shows like Stranger Things 3 play at 59.94Hz and so fixing at 24 doesn't help, though I'm not 100% if they have Atmos.


Since I've added the Lumagen to my HT, I no longer have either the Panasonic UB820 or UB420 as my UHD player (I'm now using the Sony X800 because of the ability to output native resolution of SD & HD content for Lumagen upscaling). Although not officially recognized by Dolby, the Panasonic UHD player's app did provide Atmos for Netflix in conjunction with the most recent Yamaha & Denon AVR/pre-pro models. I can't remember whether stuttering was an issue for that app.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Since I've added the Lumagen to my HT, I no longer have either the Panasonic UB820 or UB420 as my UHD player (I'm now using the Sony X800 because of the ability to output native resolution of SD & HD content for Lumagen upscaling). Although not officially recognized by Dolby, the Panasonic UHD player's app did provide Atmos for Netflix in conjunction with the most recent Yamaha & Denon AVR/pre-pro models. I can't remember whether stuttering was an issue for that app.


The Panasonics don't support anything other than 60p for their streaming output, so their stutter is "different" - they always stutter!


----------



## dlinsley

I'm going to try rolling back firmware to 042820 (hopefully the HDMI input firmware rolls back too) to see if that fixes my Roku wrong color issues - after watching DirecTV, switching to my Oppo 203 results in a solid green screen now too.

Update: Went back to 050120 and switching between DirecTV, Oppo 203 and Roku Ultra is working perfectly again.


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> Any other Roku Ultra users having an issue with getting correctly colored video with 051820? I've reported my issue to Lumagen, but if I start on any input other than my Roku and then switch to it the video appears to lack yellow. The only fix is to unplug the HDMI cable for that input, ALT+PREV only seems to restart the output and not also the input, and switching inputs and back either.
> 
> After the Apple TV fix, I was planning on buying one today to get Atmos in Netflix in my theater but then the 24Hz dropping frames thread popped on the Active Topics sidebar and so that is out.


I see there were more recent posts on this but wanted to quote the first one.

=== 

With 051820 release, I switched between other sources and our Roku Ultra, with both SDR and HDR sources playing on the Roku. Everything worked. I did this about a dozen times with no issues. So not sure why you are seeing an issue.

Have you tried a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) to see if it might be a setting? You get back to your Saved settings by going to STBY and back on (assumes you do *not* Save after the Factory Reset).


----------



## jrp

Random note of the day:

After an update completes, I recommend pulling wall power from the Pro and then plugging in again so you get a "cold boot." It is possible the update might leave the Pro "standby state" not quite right. I have had this on rare occasion. So try this before assuming the update did not go correctly.

If an update does not complete, or completes, but things are not quite right, do a "Boot Mode Update" to recover. A bad update can leave the software in a corrupt state, and a Boot Mode Update may be required to recover.

Doing a Boot Mode Update is described in the tech tip that comes with each update. It runs like a normal update but once you have everything setup, pull wall power from the Pro, reconnect wall power , and with the Radiance Pro in a standby state start the update within 10 seconds.


----------



## jazzrock

No idea what happened but I can no longer change the Lumagen Pro aspect ratio. Updated my pro to the new update yesterday morning. I watched a film last night and all was good. Mine is set so that I must manually select the Aspect Ratio that I want....it is always on 16x9. Other options are 1.85, 2.00 & 2.35. I selected 2.35 last night to match the 4k film. All was good. 

Tonight....I put another 4k film that is 2.35. However I can NOT adjust the ratio. No mater what I select it doesn't change. If I put in a 16x9 film all is good. I will end up watching a 16x9 tonight.

I am using a C4 remote. I rebooted the C4 system. No change. I powered down my whole system and restarted. No change. I did a hard reboot of the Lumagen...unplugged the power cord and plugged back in. Still no joy.

I reinstalled the previous firmware...5.1 and no improvement. I even unplugged the unit after updating as Jim suggested above. I've exhausted all of my ideas. And by the way....I did not touch anything between the time I powered my system down last night and started system up again to watch a film. 

Not the end of the world and I still will be able to watch a film tonight but man....I can't figure this out. Any ideas will be greatly appreciated. 

I assume most of you will be watching a film to this evening. I will check a few times to see if there's a response but I'm going to try and forget about this problem so i can at least enjoy a film in 6x9!


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> I see there were more recent posts on this but wanted to quote the first one.
> 
> ===
> 
> With 051820 release, I switched between other sources and our Roku Ultra, with both SDR and HDR sources playing on the Roku. Everything worked. I did this about a dozen times with no issues. So not sure why you are seeing an issue.
> 
> Have you tried a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) to see if it might be a setting? You get back to your Saved settings by going to STBY and back on (assumes you do *not* Save after the Factory Reset).


It's switching inputs. I first noticed it after watching a regular 1080 SDR 709 bluray on the Oppo 203, and then switched to the Roku whose main screen is 4k SDR 709. I'll try doing a full flash too, as it was the delta flash that doesn't take long.


----------



## EVH78

jazzrock said:


> No idea what happened but I can no longer change the Lumagen Pro aspect ratio. Updated my pro to the new update yesterday morning. I watched a film last night and all was good. Mine is set so that I must manually select the Aspect Ratio that I want....it is always on 16x9. Other options are 1.85, 2.00 & 2.35. I selected 2.35 last night to match the 4k film. All was good.
> 
> Tonight....I put another 4k film that is 2.35. However I can NOT adjust the ratio. No mater what I select it doesn't change. If I put in a 16x9 film all is good. I will end up watching a 16x9 tonight.
> 
> I am using a C4 remote. I rebooted the C4 system. No change. I powered down my whole system and restarted. No change. I did a hard reboot of the Lumagen...unplugged the power cord and plugged back in. Still no joy.
> 
> I


Did you use the Lumagen remote to check if the radiance works?


----------



## hamster71

Hello, I just ordered a Paladin panamorph lens and I would now like to know if the Lumagen recognizes the image format and if it can adapt it automatically and if so how do I adjust the Lumagen?   

And leaving the lens in place, what format did you choose for 16: 9 and 2:35?


----------



## jazzrock

EVH78 said:


> Did you use the Lumagen remote to check if the radiance works?


Yes. In fact, I completely disconnected the C4 from the Lumagen so I could directly test the Lumagen remote. Still will not change.

Also important to note....the C4 remote does successfully turn the Lumagen on and off as it should when I power the system up and down.


----------



## jazzrock

Actually, C4 was NOT fully disconnected as I thought. Once C4 was completely disconnected, I was able to change the aspect ratio using the Lumagen remote. 

Just don't know why C4 would all of a sudden break. This has not happened since the Lumagen Pro & SONY 5000 were installed about 3 months ago.


----------



## Kris Deering

jazzrock said:


> No idea what happened but I can no longer change the Lumagen Pro aspect ratio. Updated my pro to the new update yesterday morning. I watched a film last night and all was good. Mine is set so that I must manually select the Aspect Ratio that I want....it is always on 16x9. Other options are 1.85, 2.00 & 2.35. I selected 2.35 last night to match the 4k film. All was good.
> 
> Tonight....I put another 4k film that is 2.35. However I can NOT adjust the ratio. No mater what I select it doesn't change. If I put in a 16x9 film all is good. I will end up watching a 16x9 tonight.
> 
> I am using a C4 remote. I rebooted the C4 system. No change. I powered down my whole system and restarted. No change. I did a hard reboot of the Lumagen...unplugged the power cord and plugged back in. Still no joy.
> 
> I reinstalled the previous firmware...5.1 and no improvement. I even unplugged the unit after updating as Jim suggested above. I've exhausted all of my ideas. And by the way....I did not touch anything between the time I powered my system down last night and started system up again to watch a film.
> 
> Not the end of the world and I still will be able to watch a film tonight but man....I can't figure this out. Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> I assume most of you will be watching a film to this evening. I will check a few times to see if there's a response but I'm going to try and forget about this problem so i can at least enjoy a film in 6x9!


Not sure I understand your issue. If you have the normal STYLE set to 16x9, what are you trying to achieve by selecting a different aspect ratio from the remote? If you have a 16x9 screen, a 2.35 image will already be framed properly inside the raster with normal playback. Hitting 2.35 will only blank out anything outside the active frame (which there rarely is). 



hamster71 said:


> Hello, I just ordered a Paladin panamorph lens and I would now like to know if the Lumagen recognizes the image format and if it can adapt it automatically and if so how do I adjust the Lumagen?
> 
> And leaving the lens in place, what format did you choose for 16: 9 and 2:35?


You could PM me or reach me through my website in my signature and I could help you out with this.


----------



## bobof

jazzrock said:


> Yes. In fact, I completely disconnected the C4 from the Lumagen so I could directly test the Lumagen remote. Still will not change.
> 
> Also important to note....the C4 remote does successfully turn the Lumagen on and off as it should when I power the system up and down.


What buttons do you use to change aspect - the new functions on the cursors that go up and down through the list of aspects, or do you use the discrete buttons for the individual aspects? For what it is worth I've just checked both of these and they both work correctly on my Pro on the latest firmware. 
At the very least if you press one of the direct aspect buttons on the remote (ie 16:9 or 235:1) you'd expect the OSD to show the input name and the aspect (that is, unless the OSD has been turned off, which is an option some use to clean up the presentation I think).

There are lots of ways that aspect control can be implemented in a system - it can be all digital in the pro, it could involve external masks, an anamorphic lens, changing projector lens memories, the control system can be heavily involved etc. Lots of different things that could fail, only some of which are in the Pro / or in the remit of the pro. 

What happens in your system usually when you change aspect - do you have a lens that moves in and out, does the projector change lens memories etc.? How sure are you that it is a function of the Pro that has failed here?

I don't know how much you know about your system setup and what has gone on with it, the following point may just serve to confuse you if you don't usually maintain this yourself and you're not very clued up on the working. To be honest if that is the case this is probably a "call the installer / manufacturer" type situation.

If you do maintain it all yourself; there is one gotcha I'm aware of that might catch folk out around the RS232 Serial port vs USB Serial port, which are often used for implementing aspect control. The pro has two physical ports and you can connect to both, but internally there is really only 1 serial port, and it gets switched to whichever device the Radiance just heard from. By default at AC power on, the system reports are sent out on the RS232 port - that is the active port. If you rely on the system reports for some element of the control, and use the RS232 serial port for that control, *and then *do something on the USB port (like use some calibration software, or something else that talks down the USB serial port) then the pro stops sending the reports on the RS232 port until such time as the RS232 at the Radiance receives something from the connected system. Effectively the reports flip between the two connectors depending on which one was most recently used. This switch I believe holds until the next full power cycle of the pro (or until the pro receives something on the other serial port). It's caused me a bit of head-scratching on occasion as in my system the effect observed was indeed my aspect control breaking as I used the reports to implement it. Now I make my auto-aspect control ping the Radiance every so often to keep the port active for the control system in case I've used the pattern generator with Colourspace / Lightspace, for example. It's not perfect but it works pretty well.


----------



## jazzrock

bobof said:


> What buttons do you use to change aspect - the new functions on the cursors that go up and down through the list of aspects, or do you use the discrete buttons for the individual aspects? For what it is worth I've just checked both of these and they both work correctly on my Pro on the latest firmware.
> At the very least if you press one of the direct aspect buttons on the remote (ie 16:9 or 235:1) you'd expect the OSD to show the input name and the aspect (that is, unless the OSD has been turned off, which is an option some use to clean up the presentation I think).
> 
> There are lots of ways that aspect control can be implemented in a system - it can be all digital in the pro, it could involve external masks, an anamorphic lens, changing projector lens memories, the control system can be heavily involved etc. Lots of different things that could fail, only some of which are in the Pro / or in the remit of the pro.
> 
> What happens in your system usually when you change aspect - do you have a lens that moves in and out, does the projector change lens memories etc.? How sure are you that it is a function of the Pro that has failed here?
> 
> I don't know how much you know about your system setup and what has gone on with it, the following point may just serve to confuse you if you don't usually maintain this yourself and you're not very clued up on the working. To be honest if that is the case this is probably a "call the installer / manufacturer" type situation.
> 
> If you do maintain it all yourself; there is one gotcha I'm aware of that might catch folk out around the RS232 Serial port vs USB Serial port, which are often used for implementing aspect control. The pro has two physical ports and you can connect to both, but internally there is really only 1 serial port, and it gets switched to whichever device the Radiance just heard from. By default at AC power on, the system reports are sent out on the RS232 port - that is the active port. If you rely on the system reports for some element of the control, and use the RS232 serial port for that control, *and then *do something on the USB port (like use some calibration software, or something else that talks down the USB serial port) then the pro stops sending the reports on the RS232 port until such time as the RS232 at the Radiance receives something from the connected system. Effectively the reports flip between the two connectors depending on which one was most recently used. This switch I believe holds until the next full power cycle of the pro (or until the pro receives something on the other serial port). It's caused me a bit of head-scratching on occasion as in my system the effect observed was indeed my aspect control breaking as I used the reports to implement it. Now I make my auto-aspect control ping the Radiance every so often to keep the port active for the control system in case I've used the pattern generator with Colourspace / Lightspace, for example. It's not perfect but it works pretty well.



Thanks for your detailed reply bobof. I do not manage my Lumagen or C4 myself. I do not make any changes on my own unless otherwise told to. Ken Whitcomb installed/calibrated the Lumagen and I spoke with him a bit earlier. We did some trouble shooting and have not found anything. We will be connecting again tomorrow.

Your RS232 & USB port explanation is curious. I have my C4 connected via RS. In the USB port...I have my AV computer/Server connected via the USB. The only reason for this is to be able to perform updates easily without the need of connecting my laptop. I did perform the update to 5.18 using the USB port Friday morning. Not sure that is the cause but certainly worth considering.

By the way...I was wrong about it working after the update.....I updated the Pro on Friday morning and watched a movie Friday night BUT it was a1.78 film and NOT a 2.35 as I original thought. I misremembered. But because the Lumagen remote does work.....that leads me to believe the c4 is the issue. But possibly something changed that is causing the problem with C4. 

Regardless...I'm just going to watch another 1.78 or 1.85 film this afternoon and not worry about it till tomorrow!


----------



## bobof

jazzrock said:


> Thanks for your detailed reply bobof. I do not manage my Lumagen or C4 myself. I do not make any changes on my own unless otherwise told to. Ken Whitcomb installed/calibrated the Lumagen and I spoke with him a bit earlier. We did some trouble shooting and have not found anything. We will be connecting again tomorrow.
> 
> Your RS232 & USB port explanation is curious. I have my C4 connected via RS. In the USB port...I have my AV computer/Server connected via the USB. The only reason for this is to be able to perform updates easily without the need of connecting my laptop. I did perform the update to 5.18 using the USB port Friday morning. Not sure that is the cause but certainly worth considering.
> 
> By the way...I was wrong about it working after the update.....I updated the Pro on Friday morning and watched a movie Friday night BUT it was a1.78 film and NOT a 2.35 as I original thought. I misremembered. But because the Lumagen remote does work.....that leads me to believe the c4 is the issue. But possibly something changed that is causing the problem with C4.
> 
> Regardless...I'm just going to watch another 1.78 or 1.85 film this afternoon and not worry about it till tomorrow!


It sounds like it has some legs but I wouldn't bet my dinner on it. On my machine with the USB connected, just opening Lightspace up without actually connecting to the Radiance can be enough to stop my RS232 port as it polls any serial ports it finds to try and find meters etc.

For what it is worth though it's unlikely for just a normal update to cause that. After the update happens the Radiance shuts down; mine always comes back around from an update with the RS232 port running as you'd expect / hope. Not sure if something _may_ happen if you use the config download tools over USB. 

Without knowing how your Control4 is set up, the only thing I could suggest I would probably try in your position is perhaps powering down fully both the control system and the Radiance Pro, but I'd definitely suggest talking to your installer first. I don't know enough about what you have connected to your Control4 and what implications a reboot might have. 

As I say though I'm very happily using auto aspect and the aspect control functions in the most recent update, so while I'm not saying it isn't somehow related to the content of the update, in general it appears sound from my own system's point of view.


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> Concerning Auto Aspect and the use of the HDMI Info Frame flag for aspect ratio:
> 
> The HDMI Info Frame Aspect Ratio feature is limited, and improperly implemented by some devices.
> 
> The HDMI Aspect Info Frame can be used to determine 4:3 versus 16:9, *if* the source implementation is correct. We see that in the USA sources general get the 4:3 versus 16:9 correct, but there are devices in Europe that get this wrong. This is why the Radiance Pro auto-aspect ratio feature has options for "HDMI + image" and just "image."
> 
> The Pro assumes the source raster is 4:3 for SD, and 16:9 for HD and UHD. So the "HDMI aspect" is not of much use. Lumagen now recommends using the "image" (only) mode for auto-aspect to avoid issues with sources getting the aspect info-frame data wrong.



In my case I found that the best setting is "HDMI+image". For some reason, when viewing some obscure European movies on DVD, the "image" setting will display them as 16:9 although they are 4:3. "HDMI+image" displays them correctly and I haven't noticed any cases where it gets the aspect ratio wrong. Anyway, just mentioning it and I hope you keep that option available even if you recommend "image".


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> In my case I found that the best setting is "HDMI+image". For some reason, when viewing some obscure European movies on DVD, the "image" setting will display them as 16:9 although they are 4:3. "HDMI+image" displays them correctly and I haven't noticed any cases where it gets the aspect ratio wrong. Anyway, just mentioning it and I hope you keep that option available even if you recommend "image".


SD DVD is one scenario where it makes sense to use the HDMI flag. DVD is always 4:3 in pixel aspect, and most 16:9 isn't letterboxed but stretched instead to full frame. Old SD 16:9 TVs used to receive the signal from (good) DVD players that provided it and be able to apply the right scaling automatically based on the content. 

"Image" can't distinguish between 4:3 content and 16:9 squashed content on DVD. It could only deal with letterboxed content, which explains what you saw (those European titles were maxing out the available pixels to give the best possible widescreen image).


----------



## Vinturbo

I would like to report a situation where the DTM is not working as it should. the film is STAR TREK (2009 bluray, 2016 bluray UHD). the scene is between 45 and 46 minute.
When the shot changes, while the actors speak, there is a bad change in brightness.


----------



## Karl Maga

dlinsley said:


> Any other Roku Ultra users having an issue with getting correctly colored video with 051820? I've reported my issue to Lumagen, but if I start on any input other than my Roku and then switch to it the video appears to lack yellow. The only fix is to unplug the HDMI cable for that input, ALT+PREV only seems to restart the output and not also the input, and switching inputs and back either.
> 
> After the Apple TV fix, I was planning on buying one today to get Atmos in Netflix in my theater but then the 24Hz dropping frames thread popped on the Active Topics sidebar and so that is out.





jrp said:


> I see there were more recent posts on this but wanted to quote the first one.
> 
> ===
> 
> With 051820 release, I switched between other sources and our Roku Ultra, with both SDR and HDR sources playing on the Roku. Everything worked. I did this about a dozen times with no issues. So not sure why you are seeing an issue.
> 
> Have you tried a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) to see if it might be a setting? You get back to your Saved settings by going to STBY and back on (assumes you do *not* Save after the Factory Reset).


I’m not having any of the issues like @dlinsley described with my Roku Ultra, Radiance Pro, JVC NX7.


----------



## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> I would like to report a situation where the DTM is not working as it should. the film is STAR TREK (2009 bluray, 2016 bluray UHD). the scene is between 45 and 46 minute.
> When the shot changes, while the actors speak, there is a bad change in brightness.


Thanks for the DTM report. 

I would like to confirm if you are on the latest release. Press OK and on the second line middle of "Info Pg 1" the "S/W Rev:" is reported. There is a six digit number for the release. Please post what release you are on. 

I ask since the latest few releases have made great improvement in difficult scene changes like this and I want to know if we have another case to look at, or if perhaps loading the latest would resolve this for you.


----------



## jrp

hamster71 said:


> Hello, I just ordered a Paladin panamorph lens and I would now like to know if the Lumagen recognizes the image format and if it can adapt it automatically and if so how do I adjust the Lumagen?
> 
> And leaving the lens in place, what format did you choose for 16: 9 and 2:35?


Make sure your projector is in its native aspect mode. If it has a 4096 x 2160 output mode you can program the Pro to 4096 wide output with MENU 0877 special "direct" command (or use the Output Setup Menu). Note: Direct Commands are shown in the back of the manual.

If you have a 2.35, 2.37 or 2.40 screen, you only need to change the Output.Styles.Style0.Apsect to 2.40.

You can use 2.37 or 2.35 for the output aspect but since most anamorphic content is 2.40 I use 2.40. 

=== 

Then you can select the input aspect of 2.35 (or 2.40) and optically zoom the projector to the width of the screen. This should get you pretty close and you can use Output.Styles.Style0.Mask/Shrink.Shrink if needed to reduce the height to get the correct amount of overscan.

Save your changes.

Contact your dealer if you need more help. If that does not work out, contact support AT Lumagen.com if you would like more assistance. 

Once set up just select the input aspect using the Lumagen Remote. Or you can enable "Auto Aspect Mode."

========== 

BTW, for everyone: We are about to post a new version of the manual. I expect it will be up on the lumagen.com Website on our Monday (June 1).

I tried to get the new DTM info and new features added. If you do find issues with the manual you can email me at support AT lumagen.com.


----------



## dlinsley

Karl Maga said:


> I’m not having any of the issues like @dlinsley described with my Roku Ultra, Radiance Pro, JVC NX7.


This is what I'm seeing. In this case, I'm missing blue (I said yellow earlier, but that's what my wife said. I didn't really process it). This is after reflashing 051820 using the bootloader method, and same after factory reset. Revert again to 050120 works perfectly.










Edit: If it makes a difference, I purchased my 18G input card in September 2016.


----------



## Karl Maga

@dlinsley, I’m on 051820, and not experiencing this issue. My Radiance Pro was manufactured in 2019. My Roku Ultra is from 2018.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> Thanks for the DTM report.
> 
> I would like to confirm if you are on the latest release. Press OK and on the second line middle of "Info Pg 1" the "S/W Rev:" is reported. There is a six digit number for the release. Please post what release you are on.
> 
> I ask since the latest few releases have made great improvement in difficult scene changes like this and I want to know if we have another case to look at, or if perhaps loading the latest would resolve this for you.


YES, I have the latest firmware, 051820.


----------



## hamster71

jrp said:


> Contact your dealer if you need more help. If that does not work out, contact support AT Lumagen.com if you would like more assistance.


Good idea, I hadn't thought about it...

Good in Switzerland I do not believe that there is a reseller for Lumagen products. Personally I bought it from Gordon, so I don't necessarily think of asking him for advice. So I will see with him, thank you .


----------



## Ash Sharma

dlinsley said:


> This is what I'm seeing. In this case, I'm missing blue (I said yellow earlier, but that's what my wife said. I didn't really process it). This is after reflashing 051820 using the bootloader method, and same after factory reset. Revert again to 050120 works perfectly.
> Edit: If it makes a difference, I purchased my 18G input card in September 2016.


I have seen this also when switching to Kaleidescape.
If I switch to Tivo and Back it goes away.


----------



## dlinsley

BTW I'm working with Pat via the support channel to try and get them a local repro. I did find that it doesn't repro when the Roku is on a 9G input, only when input to either of my 18G cards. Unfortunately, switching inputs doesn't cure it, just input cable reseat.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> BTW I'm working with Pat via the support channel to try and get them a local repro. I did find that it doesn't repro when the Roku is on a 9G input, only when input to either of my 18G cards. Unfortunately, switching inputs doesn't cure it, just input cable reseat.


Out of interest, did you try switching to the other input on the same 18G card, or just to another input on another card? On the 18G cards if you switch to an input on a different card I think it more or less keeps the 18G input active. When I've seen some port-related issue in the past on the 18G I had to switch the card to the other port on the same card to clear it, and not just to any port in the system.

Alt-prev key combination on the remote might be worth trying too. That's predominantly an output reset I think, but it ripples up through to the input to some extent I believe...


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> Out of interest, did you try switching to the other input on the same 18G card, or just to another input on another card? On the 18G cards if you switch to an input on a different card I think it more or less keeps the 18G input active. When I've seen some port-related issue in the past on the 18G I had to switch the card to the other port on the same card to clear it, and not just to any port in the system.
> 
> Alt-prev key combination on the remote might be worth trying too. That's predominantly an output reset I think, but it ripples up through to the input to some extent I believe...


Pat got a local repro last night. I've called off the sage burners.

Yes, I first noticed this when switching inputs on my first 18G card from input 1 (Oppo) to input 2 (Roku). I moved the Roku to my other 18G card, and used its first input (my 7) and still repro. However, if I move it to an 9G input the video is correct! When on 18G input, I can temporarily fix it - until I switch away and back - by going into Video EDID and changing it from Max to 9G. Alt-Prev doesnt fix it. I had tried that, I have a button on my Harmony just for that as it did resolve issues in the past with the DirecTV box going to snow. The Video EDID change is a few steps, but a solid work around for now.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Pat got a local repro last night. I've called off the sage burners.
> 
> Yes, I first noticed this when switching inputs on my first 18G card from input 1 (Oppo) to input 2 (Roku). I moved the Roku to my other 18G card, and used its first input (my 7) and still repro. However, if I move it to an 9G input the video is correct! When on 18G input, I can temporarily fix it - until I switch away and back - by going into Video EDID and changing it from Max to 9G. Alt-Prev doesnt fix it. I had tried that, I have a button on my Harmony just for that as it did resolve issues in the past with the DirecTV box going to snow. The Video EDID change is a few steps, but a solid work around for now.


Hehe awesome, hopefully they'll be able to fix it up then.

In the meantime instead of going into the menu the long way, you might be able to set it up so either a memory or a virtual input has the 9G setting, and then you can just flick between the two.


----------



## EVH78

Anyone here using a Zappiti with the Lumagen? Since the last firmware the Radiance will not play HDR from the Zappiti anymore. 

HDR works fine with the Oppo but not with the Zappiti. Connecting the Zappiti directly to the projector works, so maybe something strange with the new chipset/Hdmi programming maybe?


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> Anyone here using a Zappiti with the Lumagen? Since the last firmware the Radiance will not play HDR from the Zappiti anymore.
> 
> HDR works fine with the Oppo but not with the Zappiti. Connecting the Zappiti directly to the projector works, so maybe something strange with the new chipset/Hdmi programming maybe?



Looking forward to the response you get to this question since I have a Zappiti player on the way.


----------



## docrog

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare Radiance Pro upscaling of HD -> UHD compared with the AI upscaling of the new nVidia Shield products?


----------



## cappy1

EVH78 said:


> Anyone here using a Zappiti with the Lumagen? Since the last firmware the Radiance will not play HDR from the Zappiti anymore.
> 
> HDR works fine with the Oppo but not with the Zappiti. Connecting the Zappiti directly to the projector works, so maybe something strange with the new chipset/Hdmi programming maybe?


I have the Zappiti Pro with latest firmware into Lumagen and have no issues playing HDR.

Clarification: I am not certain if I read your post correctly. I have not updated the Lumagen, just the Zappiti.


----------



## SJHT

I think people who are having issues (or providing feedback that they are not) really need to provide what exact display device they are using. Might be related to the entire HDMI chain from source to display. I’ve used the new firmware so far with Kaleidescape (Strato), Apple 4KTV and my Oppo 205 without any issues to my Sony 995 (and Altitude for audio only). SJ


----------



## dlinsley

BTW if you have contacted Lumagen via the [email protected] email, and I recommend you do as Pat got right on this issue, be sure to check your spam/junk folder if you "don't" get a response. Although I initiated the thread, and have talked to Lumagen many times via that same email, Gmail started flagging their responses as spam this weekend and I missed their initial few emails back the first two days.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> I think people who are having issues (or providing feedback that they are not) really need to provide what exact display device they are using. Might be related to the entire HDMI chain from source to display. I’ve used the new firmware so far with Kaleidescape (Strato), Apple 4KTV and my Oppo 205 without any issues to my Sony 995 (and Altitude for audio only). SJ


Same here with Kscape, Oppo 203 and ATV4K. Not a single hiccup so far, and have bounced between them quite a bit.



dlinsley said:


> BTW if you have contacted Lumagen via the [email protected] email, and I recommend you do as Pat got right on this issue, be sure to check your spam/junk folder if you "don't" get a response. Although I initiated the thread, and have talked to Lumagen many times via that same email, Gmail started flagging their responses as spam this weekend and I missed their initial few emails back the first two days.


I've had this same issue with [email protected]. I've had tons of emails back and forth, but sometimes I'll find a few in my spam folder for some reason. Truly bizarre as I don't get this from any other email like this. I've even gone into my settings and labeled these NOT as spam and they'll still go in there occasionally.


----------



## EVH78

Funny, I just found the email from Pat in my spam folder...

They sent me a new firmware, I will report back. 

Using a Sony 995ES with the Radiance Pro and the Zappiti 4K HDR One.


----------



## bobof

For what it is worth my system is working well with the latest firmware.

4242 with 18G ins and outs.
Video out via Ruipro Hybrid fibre to JVC X7900 projector. Using TX microcode 0.
Audio out to NAD 758v3
Sources are AppleTV4k, M9702v3, Samsung UHD and Intel NUC PC.


----------



## EVH78

I downgraded to 042820 and HDR is working again (rebooting the Zappiti is mandatory!). Patrick is working on a fix. 

I would not recommend to install the latest FW if you have got a Zappiti media player.


----------



## EVH78

Firmware fixed by Patrick! Guess the update will be online soon! 

Well done Lumagen!!!


----------



## hamster71

I have a little problem, having a 1080P diffuser my Oppo 203 systematically comes out in 1080P even when watching 4K movies ... The Lumagen Pro being much more efficient to perform the scaling 4K to 1080P, I would have liked it to be the latter that performs the downscaling ... 

So how do I prevent my Oppo from systematically locking in 1080P, especially since the Lumagen can receive of 4k ?


----------



## dgkula

Hi,

I updated to firmware 051820 last week some time and since that time I have only watched content on my Roku Premier+ and had no issues.

This afternoon I attempted to watch a UHD Blu Ray on my Panasonic UB900 and the player is no longer seeing the Lumagen as an HDR-capable device and so is converting HDR to SDR (see pics).

Anyone have any idea what is going on? I tried to go into the Input definition and set Video EDID to HDR:Yes (instead of the default "Use Global" which is also set to Yes). That made no difference.

I unplugged both the Lumagen and the Panasonic and still have this issue. Any help appreciated!


----------



## dgkula

i just rolled abck to firmware 050120 and the Panasonic UB900 now recognizes the Lumagen as an HRD-capable display.

All I did was the update, switched the Lumagen to the UB900 input and powered up the UB900 and everything is working.

Looks like a bug in the 051820 firmware release. How do I report this?


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> i just rolled abck to firmware 050120 and the Panasonic UB900 now recognizes the Lumagen as an HRD-capable display.
> 
> All I did was the update, switched the Lumagen to the UB900 input and powered up the UB900 and everything is working.
> 
> Looks like a bug in the 051820 firmware release. How do I report this?


Via email to Lumagen ([email protected]) . I think they are already aware and have a fix in beta though - someone else mentioned similar with a different player. Ping them a mail.


----------



## Htnut2000

hamster71 said:


> I have a little problem, having a 1080P diffuser my Oppo 203 systematically comes out in 1080P even when watching 4K movies ... The Lumagen Pro being much more efficient to perform the scaling 4K to 1080P, I would have liked it to be the latter that performs the downscaling ...
> 
> So how do I prevent my Oppo from systematically locking in 1080P, especially since the Lumagen can receive of 4k ?


If you want the Oppo to always output the resolution of the source material, select Source Direct on the Oppo. This setting is in the video option menu


----------



## gadgetfreaky

I guess I'll roll back my firmware since I haven't heard of a fix coming for my problem. I have the Nvidia shield pro. On Hulu every show starts black now (strangely the logo shows up and the forward rewind but no picture until i rewind a few seconds to start). Also, sometimes the input for some reason has been changed to another one next time I turn on my projector ( i leave my radiance on). Other times, the resolution is at 480p output after i change it back to auto2. It's just been really weird whereby before I upgraded it was rock solid. Now to decide which to roll back to. 

JRP you by chance know what's going on ?


----------



## hamster71

hamster71 said:


> I have a little problem, having a 1080P diffuser my Oppo 203 systematically comes out in 1080P even when watching 4K movies ... The Lumagen Pro being much more efficient to perform the scaling 4K to 1080P, I would have liked it to be the latter that performs the downscaling ...
> 
> So how do I prevent my Oppo from systematically locking in 1080P, especially since the Lumagen can receive of 4k ?





Htnut2000 said:


> If you want the Oppo to always output the resolution of the source material, select Source Direct on the Oppo. This setting is in the video option menu


I have already tried this but it does not work. I guess the Oppo 203 sees that my broadcaster is not 4k and refuses to go out in 4k and systematically goes out in 1080P despite the fact that the scaler is capable of receiving and processing 4K.

It must be a story of edid or copy protection ... But I do not understand why the Lumagen can not block the edid of the broadcaster, to be able to receive a 4K signal from the Oppo and then block the output on 1080P? Or is there a setting to be made in Lumagen for it to work?

It's a bit annoying. I know that I could put a Hdfury vertex to solve the problem but this solution does not suit me, it still adds a device on the signal ...


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> For micro-stutter, we have seen this sometimes be due to HDMI cabling. However, it can also be frame drops or repeats due to the mismatch being input and output rate as bobof suggests.
> 
> 
> 
> Video content really should be 23.98 or 59.94, and not 24.00 or 60.00. To eliminate output restarts going form 60.00 (OSD) to 59.94 (Content), our direct commands for 4k output turn "Rate Match" to Off. While 60.00 is a legal video rate, I consider it a mistake for any consumer content as it runs against defacto usage which is either 59.94 or 23.98 Hertz.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately if sources are outputting video content a 24.00 and/or 60.00, and the drops/repeats bother you, you need to set "Rate Match" = On, to reduce the number of dropped frames.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have not used a direct output mode code (MENU 087X) to manually set the output you can change this in the active output style (MENU  Output  Styles  Styles0  HDMI Format  Rate Match by default). However, if you have used one of the direct output mode codes (MENU 087X), the Rate Match is forced off and you need to undo the command with MENU 0870, and a Save. Then you would set the output rate using the Menu. Please note I am talking to Patrick about either new manual output mode command that do not turn off Rate Match, or a way to again enable Rate Match after using a MENU 087X manual output mode code.
> 
> 
> 
> The only way to completely eliminate the frame drops and repeats completely is to turn on Genlock for the rate(s) you notice with the "micro stutter." If you still see the frame drops/repeats with Rate Match = On, then you should try Genlock on using MENU  Input  Options  Genlock  (Off, Auto24-Normal, Auto24-Fast, Auto-Normal, Auto-Fast, command. Frame drops/repeats are more noticeable at 23.98 Hertz. If you do not notice them at 59.94 Hertz, try Auto24-Normal, and if you do notice them at 59.94 Hertz try Auto-Normal.
> 
> 
> 
> Genlock should eliminate the frame drops/repeats, but be aware of the following:
> 
> 
> 
> - If a 60.00 source is active and "Rate Match" is Off, the output is 59.94. Genlock will not lock on in this case, and so it will be disabled due to this small, but significant, difference.
> 
> 
> 
> - Genlock increases switching time. If you have a projector with a long lock on time (most do it seems), this will be a very noticeable increase.
> 
> 
> 
> - I recommend having one memory with Genlock Off (e.g. MEMA), and a second with Genlock On (e.g. MEMB). Then you can switch and channel surf as before using MEMA. Then when you get to a program you want to enable Genlock for, press Pause, then switch to MEMB, wait for the picture to return, then press Play.
> 
> 
> 
> - For sources that are mostly used for 24 Hertz content like Bluray players, I suggest you consider using the Radiance Pro's Output Setup Menu to program a Output Style for that specific input to always outputs 24/23.98. I program our Radiance Pro this way for our Oppo 203, and our Strato, players. Since I am always starting and stopping content this means I pay the projector HDMI restart time when I first select that input.
> 
> 
> 
> - If you have an Oppo 203, I suggest you consder programming the OSD to always output at 24 Hertz if you are like me and use it to view movie content. This allows the movie to start without changing the rate out of the player to the Pro.




Jim, 

I don’t see in the OPPO menu system where to set only the OSD to output 24 Hz. Are you referring to changing the output resolution from source direct to (probably) Custom UHD 24 Hz?

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## stefanop

dgkula said:


> i just rolled abck to firmware 050120 and the Panasonic UB900 now recognizes the Lumagen as an HRD-capable display.
> 
> All I did was the update, switched the Lumagen to the UB900 input and powered up the UB900 and everything is working.
> 
> Looks like a bug in the 051820 firmware release. How do I report this?


Same for me but in the opposite way: Dune Pro 4K is seen as an HDR device Always on even if it's outputting SDR709. I've already sent an email to [email protected] so I think they already are aware of this.
Rolling back to previous firmware fixes everything.


----------



## Kris Deering

hamster71 said:


> I have a little problem, having a 1080P diffuser my Oppo 203 systematically comes out in 1080P even when watching 4K movies ... The Lumagen Pro being much more efficient to perform the scaling 4K to 1080P, I would have liked it to be the latter that performs the downscaling ...
> 
> So how do I prevent my Oppo from systematically locking in 1080P, especially since the Lumagen can receive of 4k ?


What is the output resolution set for on the Oppo? What is a 1080p diffuser?


----------



## Kris Deering

giomania said:


> Jim,
> 
> I don’t see in the OPPO menu system where to set only the OSD to output 24 Hz. Are you referring to changing the output resolution from source direct to (probably) Custom UHD 24 Hz?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Not Jim but that is exactly how he does what you're asking about.


----------



## LGJr

*1d lut*

Hello, 

Would you still have to do a 1d lut in the Lumagen after you do a 1d lut in LGcx oled?


----------



## hamster71

Kris Deering said:


> hamster71 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a little problem, having a 1080P diffuser my Oppo 203 systematically comes out in 1080P even when watching 4K movies ... The Lumagen Pro being much more efficient to perform the scaling 4K to 1080P, I would have liked it to be the latter that performs the downscaling ...
> 
> So how do I prevent my Oppo from systematically locking in 1080P, especially since the Lumagen can receive of 4k ?
> 
> 
> 
> What is the output resolution set for on the Oppo? What is a 1080p diffuser?
Click to expand...

The definition on the Oppo is set to UHD auto and my diffuser is a Marantz VP-11S2.


----------



## EVH78

dgkula said:


> i just rolled abck to firmware 050120 and the Panasonic UB900 now recognizes the Lumagen as an HRD-capable display.
> 
> All I did was the update, switched the Lumagen to the UB900 input and powered up the UB900 and everything is working.
> 
> Looks like a bug in the 051820 firmware release. How do I report this?


Please see post 7938. They are working on a fix!


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> Not Jim but that is exactly how he does what you're asking about.




Thank you, Kris.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Kris Deering

giomania said:


> Jim,
> 
> I don’t see in the OPPO menu system where to set only the OSD to output 24 Hz. Are you referring to changing the output resolution from source direct to (probably) Custom UHD 24 Hz?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





hamster71 said:


> The definition on the Oppo is set to UHD auto and my diffuser is a Marantz VP-11S2.


The 11S2 is an older DLP that probably has HDMI restrictions that are causing the issue with regards to the output resolution (it is limiting ALL components in the chain to 1080 because of HDCP restrictions). Even if you hooked the Oppo directly to the projector it would have this issue. You may be able to do a workaround with something like an HD Fury, but the Lumagen does not do anything to work around legal HDCP/HDMI issues.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw052620*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*052620*
- Posted 060820 
Fix for issue switching between 2 inputs on an 18Ghz input card with the new 18Ghz input chip firmware that was just introduced in prior update. 
This problem could be seen as corrupted video often miscolored. 
Fix for powering on to 1080p24 source and getting strangely colored video. 
Fix for the Pro's EDID causing some devices (Zapitti, etc.) to misinterpret the Pro's EDID as not supporting HDR. 
Fix was made to the 'Merge to 1.78' input auto-aspect option. 
Added 'Report Port' option to rs232 reporting menu under *Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup* to override automatically selecting last active rs232 port. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> Added 'Report Port' option to rs232 reporting menu under *Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup* to override automatically selecting last active rs232 port.


This is really useful for anyone who uses both control ports on their Radiance Pro. It means my auto aspect solution based on the reports always works, even if I've just used the USB for controlling the patch generator from Lightspace / Colourspace.

Thanks for implementing this guys! 

The "merge aspects" functionality is working great, too.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *052620*
> - Posted 060820
> Fix for issue switching between 2 inputs on an 18Ghz input card with the new 18Ghz input chip firmware that was just introduced in prior update.


Question - what Happens if someone installs 051820 which has new firmware for HDMI- and then rolls back to a previous firmware such as 041120 - does the New Firmware stay or does that roll back also?


----------



## Mike_WI

Ash Sharma said:


> Question - what Happens if someone installs 051820 which has new firmware for HDMI- and then rolls back to a previous firmware such as 041120 - does the New Firmware stay or does that roll back also?


I think the 18GHz chip FW changes also, but I'm not sure.
Will await people smarter than me to confirm...


----------



## dlinsley

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *052620*
> - Posted 060820
> Fix for issue switching between 2 inputs on an 18Ghz input card with the new 18Ghz input chip firmware that was just introduced in prior update.
> This problem could be seen as corrupted video often miscolored.


Shout out to Pat (especially, but everyone at Lumagen) for all his hard work - including weekend updates - solving my Roku miscolor issue!


----------



## dgkula

Unfortunately the update has made interaction with the Panasonic UB900 worse. I will send an email to support.


----------



## A7mad78

dgkula said:


> Unfortunately the update has made interaction with the Panasonic UB900 worse. I will send an email to support.



I always unplug the hdmi cable from lumagen only and do boot mode update this method keep me safe 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EVH78

dgkula said:


> Unfortunately the update has made interaction with the Panasonic UB900 worse. I will send an email to support.


Did you reboot the Panasonic after the update was installed? Pat told me to do so and the problem with the Zappiti was gone.


----------



## dgkula

I did unplug the Panasonic UB900 and plug it back in - not sure if that is what you mean as "reboot?"
That didnt change anything 
Patrick has emailed me and is looking into it.


----------



## EVH78

dgkula said:


> I did unplug the Panasonic UB900 and plug it back in - not sure if that is what you mean as "reboot?"
> That didnt change anything
> Patrick has emailed me and is looking into it.


Install the firmware and disconnect the power plug of the UB900 and reboot. That´s what helped me fix it.It did not work with the Zappiti in standby...


----------



## Des511

And a new firmware has been released to fix the Panasonic problem. Unbelievable service.


----------



## Mike_WI

*Fw 060120*

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*FW 060120*
- Posted 060920 
Fix for corrupted video issue in 052620 update when using Panasonic UB9000 UHD player as source. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .


----------



## jrp

Ash Sharma said:


> Question - what Happens if someone installs 051820 which has new firmware for HDMI- and then rolls back to a previous firmware such as 041120 - does the New Firmware stay or does that roll back also?


Yes.

Each firmware checks if the I/O microcode is what it expects, and if not loads the I/O microcode (included in the update), that it expects.

So if you roll back to 041120, you would get the original 18 GHz input card microcode associated with that release and not the new input microcode.


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on recent posts. I have said most of this recently, but for reference:

- For updates, especially those that change the I/O chip microcode, it is a good idea to turn off other components. I don't think unplugging is needed, but it is reasonable to do. However, if you unplug HDMI cables, I recommend always disconnecting wall power from all devices before plugging HDMI cables in to help insure there is no possible damage to circuitry due to a "ground loop."

- After a Radiance Pro software update, I recommend pulling Radiance Pro power before restarting. This insures a "cold boot" for the Radiance Pro. Certainly not generally needed, but never a bad idea. There is the potential that if the update has some issue it is possible it could leave the always-running "standby code" in a corrupted state. A cold boot gives the Radiance Pro microprocessor a fresh start.

- Some good news on the recent 18 GHz input chip microcode (a.k.a. firmware). The chip vendor's new 18 GHz input microcode has introduced a couple new HDMI input bugs. However, Patrick is working through these and it looks like we can overcome all the newly introduced bugs. And most importantly in testing the new microcode works around the AppleTV 4k's bug of changing the HDR10 "static" Metadata every 30 seconds when it shouldn't. This used to cause audio dropouts on Dolby Vision (converted to HDR10 by the Apple TV) with ATMOS content from the Apple store. In testing this content now plays without the dropouts.

- As I posted, if you do notice issues while using the latest 18 GHz input microcode, after you update to the then current release, please let us know and we will do our best to resolve them.


----------



## D6500Ken

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *FW 060120*
> - Posted 060920
> Fix for corrupted video issue in 052620 update when using Panasonic UB9000 UHD player as source.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .


I can confirm from the field that 060120 resolves the Panasonic issue with the BD-UB820. Today I’ll be updating the software in a theater with the BD-UB9000.

UPDATE: 060120 also resolved the issue with the BD-UB9000 today.

Ken Whitcomb


----------



## dlinsley

FYI another word of warning for Gmail users. After previous responses to my emails to Lumagen support had been sent to the spam folder, I added their email address to my contacts and marked it as a favorite (and marked those messages as not spam). We had been happily sending back and forth (maybe 20 emails) without issue, until today when I found the latest response in the spam folder again!


----------



## AT-AT Driver

docrog said:


> Has anyone had the opportunity to compare Radiance Pro upscaling of HD -> UHD compared with the AI upscaling of the new nVidia Shield products?


I am interested in this as well. Is there any advantage to getting a Shield over my current Roku?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

I'm still getting the lumagen now randomly switching inputs . I leave my lumagen on and turn the receiver and projector on and off. I have the Nvidia shield pro on input 1 and a Facebook portal on input 3. Randomly a few times I've turned on the projector and receiver it'll have switched to input 3. Also sometimes it'll be 4:3 instead of 16:9 . And I have to change it back which is super weird.


----------



## fatherom

Let me preface this by saying I'm sure the Lumagen isn't causing any issue, but I wanted to post this question here since I do have a Lumagen (so it's another piece of the puzzle), and I find the members in this sub-forum to be quite helpful in diagnosing issues.

I have a Denon 6500. The audio from my Oppo goes directly to it, via hdmi output 2. Hdmi output 1 goes to my Lumagen, then to my Sony 885 projector.

I've been (maybe a bit too hyper-focused lately) noticing lip sync "issues". We watched Black Panther last night. During the post-credits scene speech to the UN, his mouth matches the audio perfectly. However, at other times, it seems speech is out of sync with lip movement (by maybe a frame or so?). I've been trying to zero in on a good audio delay setting on my denon.

Is it normal for a movie to vary scene to scene in terms of lip sync? Is it normal for a movie to have that "much" variability? I completely admit I'm probably focusing too much on lip movement.

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

fatherom said:


> Let me preface this by saying I'm sure the Lumagen isn't causing any issue, but I wanted to post this question here since I do have a Lumagen (so it's another piece of the puzzle), and I find the members in this sub-forum to be quite helpful in diagnosing issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Denon 6500. The audio from my Oppo goes directly to it, via hdmi output 2. Hdmi output 1 goes to my Lumagen, then to my Sony 885 projector.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been (maybe a bit too hyper-focused lately) noticing lip sync "issues". We watched Black Panther last night. During the post-credits scene speech to the UN, his mouth matches the audio perfectly. However, at other times, it seems speech is out of sync with lip movement (by maybe a frame or so?). I've been trying to zero in on a good audio delay setting on my denon.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it normal for a movie to vary scene to scene in terms of lip sync? Is it normal for a movie to have that "much" variability? I completely admit I'm probably focusing too much on lip movement.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


Try finding audio from main hdmi 1 which goes into Lumagen from hdmi out 2 I to your Denon you shouldn't have sync issues as this is how I run it

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Try finding audio from main hdmi 1 which goes into Lumagen from hdmi out 2 I to your Denon you shouldn't have sync issues as this is how I run it
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


Yeah, I haven't been running audio through my lumagen lately since I've had too many audio drop outs (1 or 2 per film). I've been working with Jim to try to find a solution to that. That being said, even running audio through the Lumagen still seems to have variability within a film...again, trying to see if this is just normal (overdubs of dialog in certain scenes not sync'd well) with films, or if I do in fact have an issue.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Let me preface this by saying I'm sure the Lumagen isn't causing any issue, but I wanted to post this question here since I do have a Lumagen (so it's another piece of the puzzle), and I find the members in this sub-forum to be quite helpful in diagnosing issues.
> 
> I have a Denon 6500. The audio from my Oppo goes directly to it, via hdmi output 2. Hdmi output 1 goes to my Lumagen, then to my Sony 885 projector.
> 
> I've been (maybe a bit too hyper-focused lately) noticing lip sync "issues". We watched Black Panther last night. During the post-credits scene speech to the UN, his mouth matches the audio perfectly. However, at other times, it seems speech is out of sync with lip movement (by maybe a frame or so?). I've been trying to zero in on a good audio delay setting on my denon.
> 
> Is it normal for a movie to vary scene to scene in terms of lip sync? Is it normal for a movie to have that "much" variability? I completely admit I'm probably focusing too much on lip movement.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


Considering that the Denon X6500 is a recent (2018) AVR, you could try placing the Lumagen after the AVR and run the Oppo (and any other video sources) directly to the AVR, allowing the AVR to be your switching device, rather than the Lumagen. This configuration works perfectly for me, using the Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR (pass through, non-processed video) as the video switcher, supplying the Lumagen with only one HDMI input.


----------



## Craig Peer

fatherom said:


> Yeah, I haven't been running audio through my lumagen lately since I've had too many audio drop outs (1 or 2 per film). I've been working with Jim to try to find a solution to that. That being said, even running audio through the Lumagen still seems to have variability within a film...again, trying to see if this is just normal (overdubs of dialog in certain scenes not sync'd well) with films, or if I do in fact have an issue.


I don't see that at all. I run audio to my Denon X8500 from my Oppo 203 and video direct to the Lumagen. Are you pausing the disc at some point and then re-starting it ?


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> Jim,
> 
> I don’t see in the OPPO menu system where to set only the OSD to output 24 Hz. Are you referring to changing the output resolution from source direct to (probably) Custom UHD 24 Hz?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro






Kris Deering said:


> Not Jim but that is exactly how he does what you're asking about.




This did not work, so it must be necessary to also set the Radiance Pro to also output 24Hz?

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## fatherom

Craig Peer said:


> I don't see that at all. I run audio to my Denon X8500 from my Oppo 203 and video direct to the Lumagen. Are you pausing the disc at some point and then re-starting it ?



Nope. :/

I want to reiterate that I'm (purposely and admittedly insanely) hyper focusing on actors mouths and whether the dialog precisely matches their lip movements. 

My daughters and I watched black panther last night and infinity war today. At different points in each movie, there's dialog that perfectly matches the actors mouths. Other times, it seems like it's slightly early or late (hard to tell). 

I'm trying to ascertain if there really is an issue or it's just "normal" for films to contain this much "slop" or "play" in certain scenes. I realize some dialog is recorded later and overdubbed. Maybe that's what I'm seeing. 

I realize what I'm doing is slightly silly. So I'm also trying to look for precise sound effects (someone tapping on something, or something else discrete) and see how those line up with what's on screen. 

I'm not sure what made me start watching this so closely recently. But I did feel, with some recent movies we've watched, that generally the lip sync was off. That's why i started mucking with the denon audio delay setting.

The problem with the av sync patterns I have is they are just basic dts and most movies I watch are in atmos. So I wonder how much that could affect timing. I don't know. I'm just guessing. But I do feel like something's off (noticeable lip sync) and I would love to get it dialed in better or know for a fact that the offending scenes are "baked in" to the source material, and it's not my gear. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SoulOfUniverse

fatherom said:


> Nope. :/
> 
> I want to reiterate that I'm (purposely and admittedly insanely) hyper focusing on actors mouths and whether the dialog precisely matches their lip movements.
> 
> My daughters and I watched black panther last night and infinity war today. At different points in each movie, there's dialog that perfectly matches the actors mouths. Other times, it seems like it's slightly early or late (hard to tell).
> 
> I'm trying to ascertain if there really is an issue or it's just "normal" for films to contain this much "slop" or "play" in certain scenes. I realize some dialog is recorded later and overdubbed. Maybe that's what I'm seeing.
> 
> I realize what I'm doing is slightly silly. So I'm also trying to look for precise sound effects (someone tapping on something, or something else discrete) and see how those line up with what's on screen.
> 
> I'm not sure what made me start watching this so closely recently. But I did feel, with some recent movies we've watched, that generally the lip sync was off. That's why i started mucking with the denon audio delay setting.
> 
> The problem with the av sync patterns I have is they are just basic dts and most movies I watch are in atmos. So I wonder how much that could affect timing. I don't know. I'm just guessing. But I do feel like something's off (noticeable lip sync) and I would love to get it dialed in better or know for a fact that the offending scenes are "baked in" to the source material, and it's not my gear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would try running sync tests as many as I could one of these 



 and start from here, if you notice this issue with movies only so it could be related to audio decoding issue at your Denon side, did you try to do a full reset for Denon and also upgrading to latest firmware?

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## EVH78

fatherom said:


> Yeah, I haven't been running audio through my lumagen lately since I've had too many audio drop outs (1 or 2 per film).


I have the same issue with my Zappiti. Casual audio dropouts, 1-2 times per movie! Changed HDMI cables to fiber, still it happens. Never at the same time stamp though.

Using the Oppo 203 and almost no dropouts, same cables...


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## jamesmil

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I would try running sync tests as many as I could one of these https://youtu.be/ucZl6vQ_8Uo and start from here, if you notice this issue with movies only so it could be related to audio decoding issue at your Denon side, did you try to do a full reset for Denon and also upgrading to latest firmware?
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


If you use the youtube videos to test, make sure you have a youtube client that matches framerate (Nvidia Shield, AppleTV 4K), or download the video. The Spears and Munsell UHD disc also has a good audio sync test clip.


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## Kelvin1965S

Just wanted to comment that after putting 060120 on my Pro a couple of days ago that I have no longer suffer drop outs/snow on a certain test disc: Previously, every time a clip finished on my 2015 Atmos test disc (1080p) there would be a brief flash of 'snow' on the screen, sometimes the menu would fail to appear then I'd have to change inputs and back to regain the picture. 

As it was only this disc it seemed to happen with so it was more of academic interest, but I recently changed all my HDMI cables for 6' Monoprice ones as I figured it might be a sign of a weak link. They weren't expensive, but didn't seem to make any difference until I ran this update. I don't know if there was anything specific in this update (I was previously at 041620), but it is a pleasant side effect.


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## gadgetfreaky

The lumagen switched to 480p output and 4:3 when I turned on the projector and receiver . Any help here? It's intermittently doing this.


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## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> The lumagen switched to 480p output and 4:3 when I turned on the projector and receiver . Any help here? It's intermittently doing this.


This is likely an EDID issue between Radiance Pro and the projector (assuming not going from Pro to AVR to projector). While EDID signals are low speed compared to video, long cables, or active cables with poor EDID signal buffering, can cause this issue. We have even seen a case where HDCP worked, and EDID did not, even though these use the same signals on the HDMI cable.

You can contact support at lumagen.com and we can help diagnose if this is an EDID issue, or something else.


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## docrog

I own the 4240 model. Is there any mechanism which would allow the unit to power on/off when the AVR powers on/off? Can the wired IR input somehow be utilized for that function?


----------



## jrp

Some comments on lip-sync test patterns:

I think lip-sync patterns are a good idea. However, the lip-sync audio, and video, need to be in the format you will be watching.

The issue is 2-channel PCM takes a lot less processing than ATMOS. So, for some audio processors, lip-sync varies depending on the audio format. It is possible that a test pattern tuned for PCM, will be incorrect for True-HD or ATMOS. A good audio processor should keep its internal delay the same for all audio formats, in my opinion. I believe some do, like the Lumagen Demo Theater Trinnov Altitude 16. However, it is still a good idea to have a appropriate lip-sync patterns to confirm.

The video format can also make a difference. Since frame times can be 41.7 mS, 20 mS, or 16.7 mS, for 24, 50, and 60 Hertz, respectively, and video delays are often measured in number-of-frames, you should also check Lip-Sync for each input frame rate.

The Radiance Pro does not delay audio, but it does have a programmable "additional video delay" feature that can help you insure Lip-sync is optimized for all relevant cases. This is in the Input.Options.Lip-sync menu for recent releases and can be set differently for each input frame rate.

The first step is to see if your TV/projector has a Game-mode, or minimum-latency, mode. If so, enable it and check it to make sure there is no quality loss using this mode. We have seen Game-mode in at least one case degrade video quality, so it is good to check. 

Consider if you should watch with Genlock on. With Genlock on the delay for each input frame rate remains the same. With Genlock off the delay through the Radiance Pro can vary by up to one source-frame-time. Having the video delay through the Radiance Pro for each input vertical rate be a constant will improve lip-sync consistency.

Genlock increases switching times, and if you have a projector that has issues locking on to a HDMI restart, the HDMI restart can cause a loss of image. So the first step is to enable "Normal Genlock" for 24 and 50/60, and switch between sources enough times you know the projector/TV can reliably lock on. If this shows that the image always returns after an output restart, and if you decide to use Genlock, what I recommend is as follows. 

If you want to use Genlock, I recommend you set MEMA to have Genlock off, and MEMB to have Genlock on. Then normal viewing is with MEMA, and when you want to watch a movie (or other critical program), start the movie/content, press PAUSE, press MEMB, wait for the picture to return, then press PLAY. To go back to normal non-Genlock mode press MEMA.

I suggest setting lip-sync for 2 channel PCM with 60 Hertz source rate using the audio processor's audio delay. For this case you can have the Radiance Pro "additional video delay" set to 0. Then put in a 24 Hertz ATMOS movie (I don't know if there is an ATMOS Lip-sync test pattern, so chime in if you know of one), and check. I like to use piano as my test pattern if available in the appropriate format. The key press video to audio alignment can be set accurately.

You may (or may not) need to change the video delay for 24 Hertz.

The Radiance Pro also can use the HDMI lip-sync feature. In our limited testing it appeared that sources either did not use this feature, or got it wrong. So the default for the HDMI lip-sync feature is Off. In addition, few TVs/Projectors appeared to implement this feature. So we made this a manual setting in the Pro for what to report back to sources for Lip-sync when this feature is enabled. It has been a while since we added this feature, so more devices may be implementing the HDMI lip-sync feature. For now we plan to stay with the current functionality.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I own the 4240 model. Is there any mechanism which would allow the unit to power on/off when the AVR powers on/off? Can the wired IR input somehow be utilized for that function?


With all that gear, are you not using any sort of control system / or at least a Harmony remote control? Either of those should be able to do it. 
I don't think there is a way to do this by other means except horrible setups where the mains power is cut by a slave switched mains output that a lot of AVR units had. I am sure that is not recommended...


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## docrog

bobof said:


> With all that gear, are you not using any sort of control system / or at least a Harmony remote control? Either of those should be able to do it. I don't think there is a way to do this by other means except horrible setups where the mains power is cut by a slave switched mains output that a lot of AVR units had. I am sure that is not recommended...


Thanks, as always, for providing your response. I do have an older Harmony remote which has been properly programmed by me for all of my AV equipment. However, I've found that it doesn't work properly 100% of the time for the Lumagen, requiring me to grab the remote. I also use a (delay) slave switch from my Yamaha AVR trigger to power the external amplifiers on/off. There has never been any performance issues with the amps, even after 15+ years of operating in this fashion. I was concerned that having the Lumagen go through a power cycle (rather than entering standby) in combination with each time the AVR powers off could lead to issues. Perhaps @jrp can chime in on this topic (repeated complete Lumagen power cycle versus entering standby mode).


----------



## dlinsley

docrog said:


> I do have an older Harmony remote which has been properly programmed by me for all of my AV equipment. However, I've found that it doesn't work properly 100% of the time for the Lumagen, requiring me to grab the remote.


Is the Lumagen in direct line of sight of the IR? Some universal remotes also don't send a 100% identical encoding / frequency of the command, and maybe this Harmony is guilty of that. I use the Harmony Elite, with the Lumagen entry from their database, and one of the IR outputs from the Harmony Hub connects to a 10-way Xantech box I bought for $30 on ebay. This breaks out the IR in to individual emitters, or in the case of the Lumagen (and my Anthem MRX1220 and now Arcam AV40) direct to the IR in port. This has been 100% stable for the past four years since I added the Elite and Xantech. Since my equipment is in a tall rack in another room, one or two blasters (positioned at various points in the front of the rack) from the Hub weren't enough to reliably control all equipment in the rack.


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## bobof

Likewise, my Harmony control of the Lumagen is totally robust. I use the wide angle emitters from Logitech in my cabinet in front of the sensor pretty much though.

I would personally not have anything that has programmable flash memory hooked up to a main switch that was frequently used on something like an AVR. Although most designers of such product are very diligent in their efforts to protect end users from themselves, I don't think it is a good practice to overly use such facilities.

I believe there are only limited circumstances when the flash is written to on these units, and they're typically under user intervention (FW updates or save config), but still, why risk it for a biscuit...


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## docrog

dlinsley said:


> Is the Lumagen in direct line of sight of the IR? Some universal remotes also don't send a 100% identical encoding / frequency of the command, and maybe this Harmony is guilty of that. I use the Harmony Elite, with the Lumagen entry from their database, and one of the IR outputs from the Harmony Hub connects to a 10-way Xantech box I bought for $30 on ebay. This breaks out the IR in to individual emitters, or in the case of the Lumagen (and my Anthem MRX1220 and now Arcam AV40) direct to the IR in port. This has been 100% stable for the past four years since I added the Elite and Xantech. Since my equipment is in a tall rack in another room, one or two blasters (positioned at various points in the front of the rack) from the Hub weren't enough to reliably control all equipment in the rack.


Thanks for that perspective. The IR receiver at which I'm pointing the Harmony is an extender from the main distribution box/hub. There is a dedicated blaster/emitter taped to the Lumagen's IR window. I get 100% compliance if I flash the Lumagen remote at the extender's IR receiver, but not always with the Harmony (even when pointing almost directly at the IR receiver). My Harmony is quite old, but I believe that it is properly configured with Harmony's Lumagen database codes. Is it possible that there is a different/specific Lumagen code that I should select for the Radiance Pro?


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## jrp

docrog said:


> ... Perhaps @jrp can chime in on this topic (repeated complete Lumagen power cycle versus entering standby mode).


I do not see any issue with completely removing power from the Radiance Pro when not in use. Having equipment disconnected by a switch/relay *may* help protect the equipment from a power surge, especially if a dual-pole switch is used.

Some people remove wall power from the Radiance Pro and other gear to insure a "cold boot" each time the theater is turned on. Doing a cold boot means the chips are in a consistent initial state, which in some situations *may* make power on more reliable.


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## docrog

jrp said:


> I do not see any issue with completely removing power from the Radiance Pro when not in use. Having equipment disconnected by a switch/relay *may* help protect the equipment from a power surge, especially if a dual-pole switch is used. Some people remove wall power from the Radiance Pro and other gear to insure a "cold boot" each time the theater is turned on. Doing a cold boot means the chips are in a consistent initial state, which in some situations *may* make power on more reliable.


Thanks for that insight, Jim. The last thing that I would have wanted to do would be to shorten the life of my Lumagen or make it less stable, merely for my convenience. BTW, I wonder if you could share the reasoning behind the initial decision of NOT including a physical power/standby button on the face of the Radiance Pro, since there's currently no means of powering on/off the unit if the remote is lost or damaged.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I do not see any issue with completely removing power from the Radiance Pro when not in use. Having equipment disconnected by a switch/relay *may* help protect the equipment from a power surge, especially if a dual-pole switch is used. Some people remove wall power from the Radiance Pro and other gear to insure a "cold boot" each time the theater is turned on. Doing a cold boot means the chips are in a consistent initial state, which in some situations *may* make power on more reliable.


Jim, I just want to be certain... if I use the trigger from the AVR to power off the Lumagen, it would not initially enter the standby state. You're stating that it's OK to completely remove power directly from the "ON" state?

Also, wouldn't it be true that when the AVR again provides power, the Lumagen will come on in the standby mode (red LED), rather than "on" (blue LED), similar to after powering down to do a firmware update? If that's the case, then it would defeat the whole concept of what I'm trying to achieve (not having to utilize the remote for the power sequence).


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## jrp

docrog said:


> Jim, I just want to be certain... if I use the trigger from the AVR to power off the Lumagen, it would not initially enter the standby state. You're stating that it's OK to completely remove power directly from the "ON" state?


If you have the optional triggers on the Radiance Pro, you need to know these are *outputs*. You cannot use them to turn on the Radiance Pro.

What I was talking about is using the control system, or trigger output on your AVR, to control a wall-power-relay. You program the Pro to turn on when power is applied (In the Other.On/Off menu). Then the relay is used to remove wall power when you want the Pro off, and to apply wall power when you want the Pro on.


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## docrog

jrp said:


> If you have the optional triggers on the Radiance Pro, you need to know these are *outputs*. You cannot use them to turn on the Radiance Pro.
> 
> What I was talking about is using the control system, or trigger output on your AVR, to control a wall-power-relay. You program the Pro to turn on when power is applied (In the Other.On/Off menu). Then the relay is used to remove wall power when you want the Pro off, and to apply wall power when you want the Pro on.


Thank you for that clarification & information. I hadn't been aware of that setting and will seek it out. My 4240 doesn't have triggers. I mentioned (in response to @bobof) that I use my AVR's trigger to enable a (delayed) power relay into which I plug my external amplifiers. I was planning to go that same route with the Lumagen if there wasn't any downside and the 4240 would power up *AND* on as well as shutting down without long term damage.


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## Ash Sharma

It may be worthwhile to merge 2:35 and 2:40 AR using the Lumagen.
Can someone provide Kindergarten steps for this - need for every source.


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## giomania

Is anyone using an Emotiva RMC-1 with the Radiance Pro? I am wondering if there is any direct user experience with this combination.

Thank you.

Mark


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thank you for that clarification & information. I hadn't been aware of that setting and will seek it out. My 4240 doesn't have triggers. I mentioned (in response to @bobof) that I use my AVR's trigger to enable a (delayed) power relay into which I plug my external amplifiers. I was planning to go that same route with the Lumagen if there wasn't any downside and the 4240 would power up *AND* on as well as shutting down without long term damage.


Yes this will work and I do not anticipate any negative effects.

You can use the same relay/outlet you use for the power amps.


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## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> It may be worthwhile to merge 2:35 and 2:40 AR using the Lumagen.
> Can someone provide Kindergarten steps for this - need for every source.


Merge aspects is only of use for auto aspect users. 

Go to any input -> Options -> Aspect setup -> Auto aspect -> Merge 2.35/2.4 - choose what aspect to merge to (either to 2.35 or 2.4) and press OK. You will then be asked if you want to apply to a specific input or all inputs, and to a specific memory or all memories. Choose as per your requirements. Save settings to make permanent.

Whether or not it is useful or not or appropriate in your system I don't know. I use it to make all scope content detect as 2.4 even if 2.35, and set masking to 2.4, which prevents the occasional title from ping ponging occasionally between the very close ratios.


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## docrog

jrp said:


> Yes this will work and I do not anticipate any negative effects. You can use the same relay/outlet you use for the power amps.


Thanks for your help, Jim. I plugged the Lumagen into a vacant socket on my Parasound SCAMP after changing the Radiance Pro option from standby to "on" when the SCAMP is triggered by the AVR. When power comes to the unit, the Lumagen initially shows the red LED and then switches to the blue LED (on its own) after less than 10 seconds. The setup works perfectly and I was able to program the AVR trigger to only send power to the Lumagen for video sources. If I start up the AVR for playback of CD/SACD content the Lumagen does not need to receive power since there's no need to turn on the NX7 for music. This now means that I should never have to touch the Lumgen remote except under exceptional circumstances since my AVR acts as the video source switcher (before the Lumagen 4240, so only one input is required) and my fixed AR screen doesn't require changes based on content. Just one less remote to consider!


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## tioneb

I'm about to purchase a Radiance Pro and I have a question regarding setting it up with a JVC Projector RS540. I am familiar with the SDR2020 mapping from the Panasonic UB820. When I select SDR2020 mapping on the UB820, it engages the filter because I think that there is no HDR flag on. When I use another HDR source (such as Roku 4K), the projector automatically remove the filter because it reads presumably that there is a HDR flag on. When I read the instructions for the Radiance Pro, it says to select the HDR Flag = On for JVC projectors. But if I do that, will the projector not put the filter on? Won't the projector select Picture Mode as HDR? Or am I to understand that by changing the gamma from ST.2084 to gamma 2.4, the filter will automatically be removed despite the Picture Mode being HDR?


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## giomania

tioneb said:


> I'm about to purchase a Radiance Pro and I have a question regarding setting it up with a JVC Projector RS540. I am familiar with the SDR2020 mapping from the Panasonic UB820. When I select SDR2020 mapping on the UB820, it engages the filter because I think that there is no HDR flag on. When I use another HDR source (such as Roku 4K), the projector automatically remove the filter because it reads presumably that there is a HDR flag on. When I read the instructions for the Radiance Pro, it says to select the HDR Flag = On for JVC projectors. But if I do that, will the projector not put the filter on? Won't the projector select Picture Mode as HDR? Or am I to understand that by changing the gamma from ST.2084 to gamma 2.4, the filter will automatically be removed despite the Picture Mode being HDR?




I don’t remember exactly how that works but I manually select the modes, and I don’t use the flag setting for SDR2020.

I did create this Microsoft excel document with notes from the RS 540 thread about what the most linear modes and settings are, because I have CRS: https://docs.google.com/file/d/1E2j...6wNOKk/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msexcel

I hope this helps.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mike Garrett

dlinsley said:


> Is the Lumagen in direct line of sight of the IR? Some universal remotes also don't send a 100% identical encoding / frequency of the command, and maybe this Harmony is guilty of that. I use the Harmony Elite, with the Lumagen entry from their database, and one of the IR outputs from the Harmony Hub connects to a 10-way Xantech box I bought for $30 on ebay. This breaks out the IR in to individual emitters, or in the case of the Lumagen (and my Anthem MRX1220 and now Arcam AV40) direct to the IR in port. This has been 100% stable for the past four years since I added the Elite and Xantech. Since my equipment is in a tall rack in another room, one or two blasters (positioned at various points in the front of the rack) from the Hub weren't enough to reliably control all equipment in the rack.


I also use Harmony Elite and Xantech box. I also use the IR input on the Lumagen. Has been very reliable for me too.


----------



## bobof

tioneb said:


> I'm about to purchase a Radiance Pro and I have a question regarding setting it up with a JVC Projector RS540. I am familiar with the SDR2020 mapping from the Panasonic UB820. When I select SDR2020 mapping on the UB820, it engages the filter because I think that there is no HDR flag on. When I use another HDR source (such as Roku 4K), the projector automatically remove the filter because it reads presumably that there is a HDR flag on. When I read the instructions for the Radiance Pro, it says to select the HDR Flag = On for JVC projectors. But if I do that, will the projector not put the filter on? Won't the projector select Picture Mode as HDR? Or am I to understand that by changing the gamma from ST.2084 to gamma 2.4, the filter will automatically be removed despite the Picture Mode being HDR?


I would suggest some caution in using the HDR flag with the RS540 to switch modes. It behaves completely as indicated by Lumagen (outputting the HDR flag which allows the projector to switch automatically between modes so you could have more light or gamut available in HDR mode) but there are two problems with its implementation in the RS540 projector.

Firstly, it can lead to mechanical issues with at least the lamp iris mech if you have different iris settings for the HDR vs SDR modes, and you sometimes switch off in SDR but power on in HDR, or vice versa. It can result in the motors being driven to their endstops and attempt to drive beyond, and result in the iris settings not actually matching up with where the hardware actually is. This is because the projector doesn't seem to store before power off where the motors are positioned, or the mode in use when selected via flag, and if the input format changes while the PJ is off it "thinks" the mechanism is in the correct position for the mode in use and then becomes misaligned the next time it moves.

Secondly, the RS540 doesn't allow selection of all profiles when receiving the HDR flag - there is a limited list of profiles selectable. This means no user color profiles and no ability to use the profile off mode, which is the best to use for 3D LUT. (the built in profiles on RS540 all have gamut compression as you get to the edge of the input space, whcih is hard for the 3DLUT software to work out and deal with).

Note that if you can be diligent and ensure through the startup or shutdown sequence that mode switching won't happen between power off and power on, then there >shouldn't< be any issue.

To answer your questions; if you do choose to use the mechanism, the filter is related to the colour profile selected, not to the gamma selected in the JVC. So if you make your HDR flag mode select BT2020 you will have the filter active, and if you just select HDR you will not have the filter active. The JVC defaults to ST2084 gamma with the HDR flag set (after all, that is what that flag implies) but if you are using SDH2020 on the Lumagen (that is what they call SDR2020 with the HDR flag set) the correct operation means you'd modify the gamma selected for profile to be something approximate to 2.4. 

In general, if you have sufficient light you are better off running with the filter on as you get the benefit of WCG. I even use it in SDR as some JVC projectors don't quite reach REC709 without it.

If you can get it set up, the best basis for a 3DLUT calibration is profile off with the filter active, which needs a bit of hackery, and then using some external mechanism (such as a control system linked to the processor's status updates, I use a Raspberry Pi) to change modes on the projector over IP or RS232. This gives best LUT quality and avoids any potential for issues with the mechanism.


----------



## tioneb

bobof said:


> I would suggest some caution in using the HDR flag with the RS540 to switch modes. It behaves completely as indicated by Lumagen (outputting the HDR flag which allows the projector to switch automatically between modes so you could have more light or gamut available in HDR mode) but there are two problems with its implementation in the RS540 projector.
> 
> Firstly, it can lead to mechanical issues with at least the lamp iris mech if you have different iris settings for the HDR vs SDR modes, and you sometimes switch off in SDR but power on in HDR, or vice versa. It can result in the motors being driven to their endstops and attempt to drive beyond, and result in the iris settings not actually matching up with where the hardware actually is. This is because the projector doesn't seem to store before power off where the motors are positioned, or the mode in use when selected via flag, and if the input format changes while the PJ is off it "thinks" the mechanism is in the correct position for the mode in use and then becomes misaligned the next time it moves.
> 
> Secondly, the RS540 doesn't allow selection of all profiles when receiving the HDR flag - there is a limited list of profiles selectable. This means no user color profiles and no ability to use the profile off mode, which is the best to use for 3D LUT. (the built in profiles on RS540 all have gamut compression as you get to the edge of the input space, whcih is hard for the 3DLUT software to work out and deal with).
> 
> Note that if you can be diligent and ensure through the startup or shutdown sequence that mode switching won't happen between power off and power on, then there >shouldn't< be any issue.
> 
> To answer your questions; if you do choose to use the mechanism, the filter is related to the colour profile selected, not to the gamma selected in the JVC. So if you make your HDR flag mode select BT2020 you will have the filter active, and if you just select HDR you will not have the filter active. The JVC defaults to ST2084 gamma with the HDR flag set (after all, that is what that flag implies) but if you are using SDH2020 on the Lumagen (that is what they call SDR2020 with the HDR flag set) the correct operation means you'd modify the gamma selected for profile to be something approximate to 2.4.
> 
> In general, if you have sufficient light you are better off running with the filter on as you get the benefit of WCG. I even use it in SDR as some JVC projectors don't quite reach REC709 without it.
> 
> If you can get it set up, the best basis for a 3DLUT calibration is profile off with the filter active, which needs a bit of hackery, and then using some external mechanism (such as a control system linked to the processor's status updates, I use a Raspberry Pi) to change modes on the projector over IP or RS232. This gives best LUT quality and avoids any potential for issues with the mechanism.


Thank you for the lengthy response, but I still need some clarification. By the way, you're right, it's the colour profile that determines whether the filter is on or not; I had forgotten about it.

I think we both want the same set-up. At the moment with the UB820, I use the filter for both SDR and HDR disks (User 3 for SDR and User 5 for HDR (with UB820 outputting SDR2020)) And I intend to keep that way with the Radiance Pro (so I can use the wider WCG ... my light output is OK with the filter on). However, I use different iris positions for SDR and HDR. I have the harmony hub and I can always set the power-off and power-on conditions. But I will discuss the issue with the iris position later.

I always knew that I wanted to set SDR2020 for HDR disks. So, I believed that the Radiance Pro should not send the HDR flag to the projector (b/c if it did, it would remove the filter automatically). But the following instructions on Radiance Pro manual on p. 16 threw me off: "Set the CMS-1 -> Colorspace -> HDR Flag to off for CMS1" So far that's what I thought I should do, but then it continues ... "unless you have a JVC projector you can select the HDR Flag = On in CMS1, to select a different projector memory for HDR than is used for SDR". Now that threw me off big time. Because the way I think the projector works (and I may be wrong) is that if it sees a HDR flag, it will automatically goes to a HDR picture mode removing the filter in the process. But I do not want the projector to remove the filter. So my question to you is: when you use the Radiance Pro with the RS540, do you set CMS-1 -> Colorspace -> HDR Flag to OFF or ON?

If you set it OFF, then I can a User Picture Mode and set the Color Profile to BT.202, Color Temp to HDR, Gamma to Custom (gamma 2.4), etc ...
But if I set it to ON, will it not put the projector in HDR Picture Mode (with the filter removed)?

Second, regarding the iris position, if I understand correctly, should I make sure that the projector upon powering up and powering down be always set to the same Picture Mode so that the iris position is always at the same position upon powering up and powering down? At the moment, the iris is always at the same position (manual -5) upon powering up and down; after watching a HDR disk (which uses a different iris position than for SDR disks), I always put it back to my SDR setting (with iris position manual -5) before powering down the projector. Is that what you have in mind to minimize iris malfunction? By the way, if my iris is malfunctioning and does not go to the iris position that I set in the projector menu, is there any way to find out about it?

Thank you (and also giomania) for helping me.


----------



## dgkula

I have a jvc rs620 and use the hdr flag in the lumagen. In my case I am able to arbitrarily customize the settings of the default hdr picture mode on the projector so that the benefit is really auto selection of a predetermined picture mode with settings of my choice. 

So as you note above, I have changed my jvc rs620 default HDR mode to have color profile BT2020, Color Temp to HDR and Gamma to Custom 2.4

Without the flag I would have to manually select the picture mode I want to use for hdr content in an sdr container, which differs from my default normal mode for regular sdr content. I hope that makes sense - I think you should be able to change the settings on the default hdr picture mode on the 540 as well to benefit from the flag and the auto selection of thus mode by the projector when this flag is seen.


----------



## dgkula

bobof said:


> In general, if you have sufficient light you are better off running with the filter on as you get the benefit of WCG. I even use it in SDR as some JVC projectors don't quite reach REC709 without it.


Hi @bobof, I'd like to better understand this as I have an RS620 with plenty of light output. I havent been using the filter for SDR viewing, just the Normal mode with Gamma 2.4 and iris settings that give me the brightness I like and auto2 DI.

Are you suggesting that using THX or Reference mode to engage the filter when watching SDR? If so, what other settings do you recommend?

My n00b reading suggested that the DCI P3 filter wasnt required for SD content as that was mapped to the Rec709 colorspace but the filter was required for UHD BD which extends to DCI. Are you suggesting that you are engaging the fikter as you arent getting good Rec709 coverage without it for SD content?

Sorry to derail this thread but I searched the JVC projector threads for many of these terms and cant find anything that explains using the filter for SDR: how, when and why, etc.


----------



## bobof

tioneb said:


> Thank you for the lengthy response, but I still need some clarification. By the way, you're right, it's the colour profile that determines whether the filter is on or not; I had forgotten about it.
> 
> I think we both want the same set-up. At the moment with the UB820, I use the filter for both SDR and HDR disks (User 3 for SDR and User 5 for HDR (with UB820 outputting SDR2020)) And I intend to keep that way with the Radiance Pro (so I can use the wider WCG ... my light output is OK with the filter on). However, I use different iris positions for SDR and HDR. I have the harmony hub and I can always set the power-off and power-on conditions. But I will discuss the issue with the iris position later.
> 
> I always knew that I wanted to set SDR2020 for HDR disks. So, I believed that the Radiance Pro should not send the HDR flag to the projector (b/c if it did, it would remove the filter automatically). But the following instructions on Radiance Pro manual on p. 16 threw me off: "Set the CMS-1 -> Colorspace -> HDR Flag to off for CMS1" So far that's what I thought I should do, but then it continues ... "unless you have a JVC projector you can select the HDR Flag = On in CMS1, to select a different projector memory for HDR than is used for SDR". Now that threw me off big time. Because the way I think the projector works (and I may be wrong) is that if it sees a HDR flag, it will automatically goes to a HDR picture mode removing the filter in the process. But I do not want the projector to remove the filter. So my question to you is: when you use the Radiance Pro with the RS540, do you set CMS-1 -> Colorspace -> HDR Flag to OFF or ON?
> 
> If you set it OFF, then I can a User Picture Mode and set the Color Profile to BT.202, Color Temp to HDR, Gamma to Custom (gamma 2.4), etc ...
> But if I set it to ON, will it not put the projector in HDR Picture Mode (with the filter removed)?
> 
> Second, regarding the iris position, if I understand correctly, should I make sure that the projector upon powering up and powering down be always set to the same Picture Mode so that the iris position is always at the same position upon powering up and powering down? At the moment, the iris is always at the same position (manual -5) upon powering up and down; after watching a HDR disk (which uses a different iris position than for SDR disks), I always put it back to my SDR setting (with iris position manual -5) before powering down the projector. Is that what you have in mind to minimize iris malfunction? By the way, if my iris is malfunctioning and does not go to the iris position that I set in the projector menu, is there any way to find out about it?
> 
> Thank you (and also giomania) for helping me.


I would not use the HDR flag for the two reasons mentioned - lack of access to user / profile off, and issues with the iris. Not being able to use the WCG filter is not a reason to not use it.
You can have the filter on with the HDR flag operating. When you play some HDR you switch to BT2020 profile instead of HDR. BT2020 is an allowed profile for HDR flag operation. So then your HDR flag with keep the filter in. But you won't have access to a user profile.

Perhaps the manual is worded a bit strong (I've not looked at the wording). There's nothing forcing you to use the HDR flag with a JVC projector, it is a suggested way of operating, manufacturer recommended . I'm suggesting a different way, but lots of folk use it successfully I'm sure (probably more dilligent than my lot are about power sequence and shutting stuff down in orderly fashion...).

If you are always powering up and down at the same iris position / mode you should be fine. It is only if you power up and down with content that would trigger the different modes via the HDR flag, and they have different iris settings, that you might have issues. In my case it is totally repeatable. To break it, set HDRflag to have iris 0, SDR to have iris -10, power off in HDRflag and then power up with SDR. You won't hear the lamp iris move from the 0 position back to -10, but the menus will think it is at -10 if you look (note, only the lamp iris seems affected, which is the really loud one that sounds like someone grinding coffee overhead...  ). If you now try to play some HDR it is very obvious that something has gone wrong because the projector tries to advance the lamp iris from -10 to 0 (but it is already at 0) so it hits the mechanical end of travel and grinds (even louder).


----------



## loggeo

Just to add to what you guys are saying. I am looking into adding a Vertex2 in the chain. It can be programmed to select different memories on jvc per input signal (e.g. sdr709, sdr2020, 3d) while maintaining the option of having profile off/filter on. Pretty cool feature.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> Just to add to what you guys are saying. I am looking into adding a Vertex2 in the chain. It can be programmed to select different memories on jvc per input signal (e.g. sdr709, sdr2020, 3d) while maintaining the option of having profile off/filter on. Pretty cool feature.


I was going to mention this, though I'm on the fence about them just because I've had a couple of HDfury devices and while they've been great at solving all sorts of oddball issues, they've also occasionally introduced their own which can end up being a bit of a rabbit hole! This is undoubtedly a neat feature of theirs though.

I would personally rather use the Lumagen to report the input changes via status reports, and have some control-system-like device watching those strings and doing the mode switch in the projector (that is how I do it, a short script running on a Raspberry Pi talking to Lumagen over RS232 and controlling the projector and my screen masking over IP.

It's not currently as shrink-wrapped of a solution as the HDfury route, but it avoids an avoidable extension of your HDMI chain, which I think is always a good idea (unless you're trying to solve some very specific issue for which there is no other option).


----------



## bobof

dgkula said:


> Hi @bobof, I'd like to better understand this as I have an RS620 with plenty of light output. I havent been using the filter for SDR viewing, just the Normal mode with Gamma 2.4 and iris settings that give me the brightness I like and auto2 DI.
> 
> Are you suggesting that using THX or Reference mode to engage the filter when watching SDR? If so, what other settings do you recommend?
> 
> My n00b reading suggested that the DCI P3 filter wasnt required for SD content as that was mapped to the Rec709 colorspace but the filter was required for UHD BD which extends to DCI. Are you suggesting that you are engaging the fikter as you arent getting good Rec709 coverage without it for SD content?
> 
> Sorry to derail this thread but I searched the JVC projector threads for many of these terms and cant find anything that explains using the filter for SDR: how, when and why, etc.


The Cinema filter isn't generally supposed to be required with SDR content. However... if you measure a colour cube cube on an X7900 (or at least the two I have had here) they come up a bit short on the green primary of REC709. Not very short, it's still within notional tolerance (and is variable between units), but it is short.

If it doesn't come up short, then you don't need the filter. If it does, then the "issue" is that the 3DLUT software when confronted with this short gamut usually makes one of two choices, either limit saturation to maintain hue, or allow a hue rotation for those colours to maintain saturation. The bulk of the profile will be adjusted to be correct, and the gamut edge becomes non-linear. If you flip in the filter, the REC709 gamut is pretty easily covered by the projector with gamut to spare for green, and you have a 3DLUT that should result in a linear output gamut.

The colour profiles on the JVC projectors aren't brilliant for 3DLUT creation as they have some gamut compression as they get towards the gamut edges, and 3DLUT SW often doesn't like this. There are some workarounds, but I prefer to use profile off and do all the colour management in the Radiance. Profile off with the filter on is a bit harder to use though; I have a method that works in my system with my X7900 (it seems if you set profile off and force the filter in and then turn off the PJ, that the filter "sticks" for profile off, probably taking advantage of a firmware oversight there...!); some others are using the HDFury product to do this in a more controlled manner. You could also fire the filter command at the projector from a control system on seeing a status report change from the Radiance. 

I'm certainly not going to say this is the only way to set these up as I know folk get good results in the profiles too; but it works well for me.


----------



## dgkula

bobof said:


> The Cinema filter isn't generally supposed to be required with SDR content. However... if you measure a colour cube cube on an X7900 (or at least the two I have had here) they come up a bit short on the green primary of REC709. Not very short, it's still within notional tolerance (and is variable between units), but it is short.


Do you have a preference for Cinema over THX mode for any reason? Both seem to engage the DCI-P3 filter. The manual doesnt have much more to say about the two modes. Thx!


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## bobof

dgkula said:


> Do you have a preference for Cinema over THX mode for any reason? Both seem to engage the DCI-P3 filter. The manual doesnt have much more to say about the two modes. Thx!


I have no preference as those built in profiles didn't serve any purpose to me; I only looked at them initially to ascertain they were both behaving in similar ways and discounted them. If you're going to use them without calibration, just pick whichever you like the most...
But I'd recommend getting it calibrated by someone who knows their way around 3DLUT and the JVC projectors . Or DIY if you have the stomach for the rabbit-hole...


----------



## tioneb

dgkula said:


> I have a jvc rs620 and use the hdr flag in the lumagen. In my case I am able to arbitrarily customize the settings of the default hdr picture mode on the projector so that the benefit is really auto selection of a predetermined picture mode with settings of my choice.
> 
> So as you note above, I have changed my jvc rs620 default HDR mode to have color profile BT2020, Color Temp to HDR and Gamma to Custom 2.4
> 
> Without the flag I would have to manually select the picture mode I want to use for hdr content in an sdr container, which differs from my default normal mode for regular sdr content. I hope that makes sense - I think you should be able to change the settings on the default hdr picture mode on the 540 as well to benefit from the flag and the auto selection of thus mode by the projector when this flag is seen.


All right, I'm beginning to see a clearer picture. So setting HDR Flag to ON on the Radiance Pro allows for AUTOMATIC change in Picture Mode when it detects a HDR content. And I understand that I can set the Picture Mode HDR mode with a different Color Profile (BT.2020) and different Gamut (2.4) that will stick whenever the HDR mode comes on. Is that correct?

And Bobof doesn't like that automatic change because he cannot use a profile off with Picture Mode HDR (by the way, how can you select a profile off on the RS540 ??) and he wants a profile off so that he can sidestep the gamut compression problems with the preset Color Profiles on the projector. Right?


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## dgkula

I think you have it. Just change the default HDR profile for HDR in an SDR container with BT2020, gamma 2.4, and high lamp and when you watch HDR content the projector will automatically change into that mode. When you stop the content and return to SDR content the projector will automatically change back to your default SDR setting.


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## gadgetfreaky

Strangely enough nothing has changed in the system other than adding a new device the Facebook portal tv on input 3. I also get the system now switching to input 5 (Chromecast) when I turn off the projector. So next time I turn on the receiver and projector it's on input 5. The other thing happening is that info shows up randomly some times. So I get wrong output at 480p sometimes. Sometimes 4:3 ratio and sometimes it's on the wrong input and sometimes info pops up. I'll reach out to support.


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## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> Strangely enough nothing has changed in the system other than adding a new device the Facebook portal tv on input 3. I also get the system now switching to input 5 (Chromecast) when I turn off the projector. So next time I turn on the receiver and projector it's on input 5. The other thing happening is that info shows up randomly some times. So I get wrong output at 480p sometimes. Sometimes 4:3 ratio and sometimes it's on the wrong input and sometimes info pops up. I'll reach out to support.


I responded to your email, but here are a couple thoughts.

This could be caused by spurious IR pulses from a control device. While we have had on a very few IR sensors go bad in the history of Lumagen, this is consistent with a bad IR sensor outputting spurious pulses on its own. If this is a bad sensor or spurious IR plugging a mono mini phone plug into the IR Input temporarily would make this stop and be a way to test this theory.

Check to make sure you do not have auto-input-select enabled as this could cause an input change.

If you disconnect the new source, does the issue go away? 

As I mentioned in my email back to you please give me a call.


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## ShaharT

A newbie / beginner calibration question - I have the CR100 & CR250 sensors combo (https://www.shopfsi.com/CR250-and-CR100-combo-p/cr-250-rh-cr-100.htm)
I understand I need to create a Colorimeter Matrix calibration for the CR100 before I begin calibrating the Lumagen, using Calman 2020 and the CR100 sesnor.

I did that, by connecting both sensors to my laptop and running the CRI Colorimeter Utility program. It took a couple of minutes and is done.
But now I'm questioning should I be doing this pre-lumagen-calibration-matrix-setup-of-the-CR100 ----> on my projector screen, instead of my laptop screen? And if so, will it be done by mirroring the test patterns from my laptop to the projector screen? And should the Lumagen processing by bypassed for this part?

I'm also curious how much of a difference this calibration of the CR100 using the CR250 provides. I mean, assuming I only run the CR250 once to calibrate the CR100 before I proceed to use the CR100 to calibrate my Lumagen/Projector - it seems like an excess spend purchasing both items. Which doesn't really matter now because I've already purchased both 

If this topic is better at a dedicated calibration forum, please excuse me. I just figured it's related to Lumagen owners who try to get a grip about using Calman + sensors to create 3D LUT etc, themselves.


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## bobof

ShaharT said:


> A newbie / beginner calibration question - I have the CR100 & CR250 sensors combo (https://www.shopfsi.com/CR250-and-CR100-combo-p/cr-250-rh-cr-100.htm)
> I understand I need to create a Colorimeter Matrix calibration for the CR100 before I begin calibrating the Lumagen, using Calman 2020 and the CR100 sesnor.
> 
> I did that, by connecting both sensors to my laptop and running the CRI Colorimeter Utility program. It took a couple of minutes and is done.
> But now I'm questioning should I be doing this pre-lumagen-calibration-matrix-setup-of-the-CR100 ----> on my projector screen, instead of my laptop screen? And if so, will it be done by mirroring the test patterns from my laptop to the projector screen? And should the Lumagen processing by bypassed for this part?
> 
> I'm also curious how much of a difference this calibration of the CR100 using the CR250 provides. I mean, assuming I only run the CR250 once to calibrate the CR100 before I proceed to use the CR100 to calibrate my Lumagen/Projector - it seems like an excess spend purchasing both items. Which doesn't really matter now because I've already purchased both
> 
> If this topic is better at a dedicated calibration forum, please excuse me. I just figured it's related to Lumagen owners who try to get a grip about using Calman + sensors to create 3D LUT etc, themselves.


Probe matching, if done, must be done on the display to be measured during profiling. It's not really about correcting errors in the probe (though it can do that in the process). It is about correcting for the difference in the way the probes see the light from the particular display type. A colorimeter effectively samples the light level through 3 colour filters and uses some math based on those filter characteristics (designed to be close to a standard observer) to come up with a colour, wheras a spectroradiometer measures distribution of wavelengths of light using a diffraction grating and sensor setup, and then puts that through some math to model through a standard observer to a colour. The filters are never a perfect match for the standard observer, and that can make colorimeters give different results with different display types that have different spectral power distribution for notionally the same displayed colours when viewed by a standard observer.

Ideally you do the probe matching with processing off and the maximal gamut possible in the mode you will be using. It is good practice not to use 100% stimulus patterns.

You're not specific about the type of projector. Standard UHP lamps are not very hard for a good colorimeter to do pretty well with as they are quite broadband. Blue laser + phosphor wheel a bit harder (blue is very spikey), RGB laser a bit harder still.

The difficulty with private ownership of highend probes I guess is that they're only high-end while you have them calibrated at manufacturer intervals. I myself have been guilty of not doing this with probes I've owned. In future I'm probably going to get someone in with a spectro that is in manufacturer calibration at least to do my probe matching, as certification of the colorimeter isn't so important. To be honest might get them to do the lot as the price of really good probes covers a lot of calibrations (unless you get them at knockdown price, or have geographical location issues that make travel costs prohibitive).


----------



## CP850-CLED

Reliable sources mentioned that some kind of color saturation desaturation upgrade is coming, is this for JVC 3D color volume tweaks or beneficial to other displays as well?


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> The difficulty with private ownership of highend probes I guess is that they're only high-end while you have them calibrated at manufacturer intervals. I myself have been guilty of not doing this with probes I've owned.


No difficulty, just send them in for recalibration. In my experience they stay stable longer than you expect, especially when sealed away in stable conditions.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> No difficulty, just send them in for recalibration. In my experience they stay stable longer than you expect, especially when sealed away in stable conditions.


Sure, but the recalibration costs at even semi regular intervals further breaks the value equation for owner-operating as an enthusiast of these kind of probes that might see action if they're lucky every 6 months? (outside of an initial spike in interest when getting to know the probes and SW, assuming you don't have a sideline in reviewing etc that sees you changing gear very regularly - once you're au fait with how your gear behaves they're needed for a few hours - even less for the spectro).

I'm geekier than most but I still see my personal gear mostly languishing in its cases, as predominantly I watch lots of movies and try not to watch patterns!  

I guess your view may be tainted by how nice it is just having these on hand for whatever, whenever and personal availability of funds, plus ease of access to folk who do have the gear to be able to offer a profiling service. I know in the UK of at least one calibrator who'll do a meter profile with a Jeti 1501 at a mutually convenient time for around £100 last time I checked, and I have friends who have rented probes from Jeti for a week for much less than the cost of recertification...


----------



## ShaharT

If I have a lot of time to let the process run, is there any advantage in allowing more points to be measured for 3D LUT than the maximum number that the Lumagen stores (17X17X17=4913)? I doubt it but thought I should ask.

Some calibration software allows generating up to 10000 measurements when creating a 3D LUT. I guess it's for devices that can store a larger lookup table.

But I was curious if there are any 'smarts' that would allow creating a bigger cube and somehow selecting out of it the most meaningful data up to the Lumagen storage capacity limit. I've read that even a sparsely populated 3D LUT does a good job, but any reason not to generate one that has every slot full? Or more than that 

Another question - I saw that @jrp posted previously here that he can only recommend Lightspace for creating 3D LUT, as he didn't get good results with Calman. That was back at version 5 I believe. Has that changed with Calman 2020, or is Lightspace still the preferred software for calibrating the Lumagen?


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> If I have a lot of time to let the process run, is there any advantage in allowing more points to be measured for 3D LUT than the maximum number that the Lumagen stores (17X17X17=4913)? I doubt it but thought I should ask.
> 
> Some calibration software allows generating up to 10000 measurements when creating a 3D LUT. I guess it's for devices that can store a larger lookup table.
> 
> But I was curious if there are any 'smarts' that would allow creating a bigger cube and somehow selecting out of it the most meaningful data up to the Lumagen storage capacity limit. I've read that even a sparsely populated 3D LUT does a good job, but any reason not to generate one that has every slot full? Or more than that
> 
> Another question - I saw that @jrp posted previously here that he can only recommend Lightspace for creating 3D LUT, as he didn't get good results with Calman. That was back at version 5 I believe. Has that changed with Calman 2020, or is Lightspace still the preferred software for calibrating the Lumagen?


The profile size and LUT size are not really inter-related, even though they sometimes have similar sizes. The profile is about getting good coverage of the display gamut. In the case of doing a 709 profile, for example, many profile points effectively end up being thrown away because they represent out of gamut colours that don't need to be mapped.

There is no reason to limit the profile measured unless you either have very little time, slow probes or a display that exhibits odd uncontrollable drift behaviour. Do as many as you can.

There are a few situations where it can be practical or even preferable to make the LUT out of very few patches - eg just the far extents of the display gamut - a sparse profile. These situations are usually where the display cannot operate in a stable fashion for profiling (eg OLEDs in an HDR mode) or where the display is very linear and you want to get a LUT as quick as possible. You might also do it if you have a LUT engine which has trouble discerning the display characteristics above the measurement noise and can't generate clean LUTs from noisy data.

The Lumagens have 3 possible LUT sizes - 5^3, 9^3 and 17^3. None of these are ever sparsely populated, though they may have been generated from a sparse profile (previous point).

I like Lightspace and Colourspace very much, they generate very good LUTs for these products. Not got any real experience of Calman though I'm aware from seeing some volumetric LUTs generated by it in 3D views that it does look like the LUT engine is a fair bit rougher / less refined. maybe it will be improved.


----------



## Grifo

In auto aspect menu
What does “merge to 1.78” mean?

One more thing.. every time I push pause or select a popup menu
Masks move to 1.78 even if I’m watching a 2.35 movie. is there
Some way to avoid this?


----------



## bobof

Grifo said:


> In auto aspect menu
> What does “merge to 1.78” mean?
> 
> One more thing.. every time I push pause or select a popup menu
> Masks move to 1.78 even if I’m watching a 2.35 movie. is there
> Some way to avoid this?


It allows you to stop some ratios being detected as different to 1.78. For example, I don't want 4:3 to be detected as a different ratio, so merging it to 1.78 stops it being detected as different. Same as 2.35/2.4 merging.

Unfortunately in the scenarios you describe the content really is no longer 2.35 at that time, so auto aspect probably should change aspect. You have 2 options:
1) Enable sticky aspects and once the aspect has auto detected to 2.35, press 2.35 again. That should make the aspect stick and prevent AA from moving the masks unless sticky is reset (changing refresh or dynamic range is usually enough to reset sticky).
2) Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect, do whatever you want to do, and then after do Alt-NLS to re-enable it.


----------



## Grifo

Thank you so much Bobof


----------



## ShaharT

I'm down the rabbit hole of learning how to calibrate using some pretty expensive meters (CR100 & CR250).
If anything, it made me understand even more what an incredibly remarkable product the Lumagen is.
I think I pretty much nailed SDR calibration. I'm getting pretty good results both in Calman and Colourspace.
Less so with HDR 
To verify first about SDR: I've turned all Lumagen processing off - No Darbee, 1080p signal in, 1080p signal out. I mean as less processing as possible in Lumagen at this phase. I'm using the Lumagen as the pattern generator. After going way deep in the rabbit hole - the sense of accomplishment is so high, and it's such a joy to start mastering another skill. I'm aiming for D65, Rec709 and after measuring/tunning I get DeltaE 2000 of less than 1 for both gray-scale, primary colors, and secondary colors. Cool. I tune everything I can first in the Projector settings (after turning off all 'optimization' settings) and then tune gray-scale & 3d LUT in the Lumagen CMS0. 

First question: what's a decent cd/md2 - nits - ansi-nits - ft/l result I should expect to get? My understanding is that these are all different measures of the same thing. I'm talking about a projector in a dark room. My PJ is the Sony 995 laser projector, and per its spec, it should output up to 2200 lumens.

Now the rabbit hole gets complicated for me.
When it comes to calibrating for HDR - I start by using a different user-setting in my projector and aim for CMS1. I understand I'll need to manually switch between two projector 'slots' for SDR and HDR content. No worries about that.
Here's what I'm missing. Should I manually set my projector to turn on HDR mode when I measure/calibrate? I thought I shouldn't as anyway I'm using (or will be using) the Lumagen's DTM so the PJ will get SDR2020, and the HDR flag will be off. So I thought I should manually change the PJ to 2020 colorspace but with HDR off. Again turn off all processing as possible in the Lumagen, select the Lumagen as a pattern generator with HDR outputs, and then start measuring. After trying this, I got such crazy readings I couldn't even start optimizing. I also tried forcing the PJ to HLG/HDR, turning on/off the HDR flag, outputting HDR2020 instead of SDR2020. To no avail.

I hope posting this here in the Lumagen thread is fine, vs. the dedicated calibration thread, as I thought there's high chance the answers would be of interest to other newbie Lumagen others.

Thanks.


----------



## tioneb

I have recently acquired a Radiance Pro, I have a quick question about calibration. I use the Calman software. When I run the pre-calibration tests for the grayscale, my 100% is a little off and the Calman software asks me to do a 2-pt adjustment ON the display. Should I adjust the Gains ON the display BEFORE I run the 21-pt 1D LUT? I'm asking this because the manual always stresses the fact that everything should be set at their default values (thereby shifting the calibration load to the Radiance Pro).


----------



## Gordon Fraser

ShaharT said:


> Now the rabbit hole gets complicated for me.
> When it comes to calibrating for HDR - I start by using a different user-setting in my projector and aim for CMS1. I understand I'll need to manually switch between two projector 'slots' for SDR and HDR content. No worries about that.
> Here's what I'm missing. Should I manually set my projector to turn on HDR mode when I measure/calibrate? I thought I shouldn't as anyway I'm using (or will be using) the Lumagen's DTM so the PJ will get SDR2020, and the HDR flag will be off. So I thought I should manually change the PJ to 2020 colorspace but with HDR off. Again turn off all processing as possible in the Lumagen, select the Lumagen as a pattern generator with HDR outputs, and then start measuring. After trying this, I got such crazy readings I couldn't even start optimizing. I also tried forcing the PJ to HLG/HDR, turning on/off the HDR flag, outputting HDR2020 instead of SDR2020. To no avail.
> 
> I hope posting this here in the Lumagen thread is fine, vs. the dedicated calibration thread, as I thought there's high chance the answers would be of interest to other newbie Lumagen others.
> 
> Thanks.





I do not know what the equivalent model is in Europe but below is my general suggestion for you.


I suspect you have a VW870 or 760. This is from memory. These units will alter the colourspace settings they allow you to use based on the colourspace flag they see coming from the scaler. If you send SDR P3 or SDR 2020 from Lumagen they will probably only allow you REC2020 option of colourspace choice in the projector. if you send SDR 709 you will find COL 1,2, 3 USER and 709 as options i think. Anyway, you want to use the one with widest coverage that is most linear for your SDR REC2020 LUT. To do this set your CMS 1 to SDR 709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 off. Set the scaler to output 4K24Hz as that is what you will likely be watching your HDR material at but do not play any HDR in to the scaler, play some SDR material.. Now do a Quick PRIMARY only profile of COL 2 AND COL 3 and look at the RGB separation chart for each and also the CIE chart coverage. I’d save those measurement runs so you can compare them to the next one.

Set CMS 1 to output SDR 2020 and HDR FLAG OFF and 2020-601/709 to OFF and do a Quick Profile PRIMARY only measurement of the REC2020 colourspace in the projector. Again, look at the coverage and the RGB separation. I suspect you will find that COL2 or COL3 will be superior to 2020 in projector for RGB separation and that the coverage area will be virtually identical. If so, choose the COL 2 or COL3, whichever is better and set the CMS 1 to the settings i listed above. 

Now set the 100percent white point balance in the PJ using it’s controls. Then on your cube profile measurements for the LUT. Make the lUT to target UHD 2020 in ColorSpace/LightSpace and upload it. Even though the Lumagen is sending SDR 709 it is irrelevant as the LUT is targeting 2020.

See how you get on with that. 

The alternative you can try, if you have time, is to CMS 1 to SDR P3 with HDR flag off and gamut covert to N. Set the PJ to 2020 colourspace or if it has it DCI and then do a profile and create a LUT for DCI P3 D65 with gamma 2.4 IN ColourSpace/LightSpace. One the LUT is uploaded go back and set Gamut Convert to Y and then compare that image quality with the SDR 2020 LUT image quality. You could use two different CMS slots in two different memories so you could easily swap between them once done.

Good luck!


----------



## ShaharT

Gordon Fraser said:


> I do not know what the equivalent model is in Europe but below is my general suggestion for you.
> 
> 
> I suspect you have a VW870 or 760. This is from memory. These units will alter the colourspace settings they allow you to use based on the colourspace flag they see coming from the scaler. If you send SDR P3 or SDR 2020 from Lumagen they will probably only allow you REC2020 option of colourspace choice in the projector. if you send SDR 709 you will find COL 1,2, 3 USER and 709 as options i think. Anyway, you want to use the one with widest coverage that is most linear for your SDR REC2020 LUT. To do this set your CMS 1 to SDR 709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 off. Set the scaler to output 4K24Hz as that is what you will likely be watching your HDR material at but do not play any HDR in to the scaler, play some SDR material.. Now do a Quick PRIMARY only profile of COL 2 AND COL 3 and look at the RGB separation chart for each and also the CIE chart coverage. I’d save those measurement runs so you can compare them to the next one.
> 
> Set CMS 1 to output SDR 2020 and HDR FLAG OFF and 2020-601/709 to OFF and do a Quick Profile PRIMARY only measurement of the REC2020 colourspace in the projector. Again, look at the coverage and the RGB separation. I suspect you will find that COL2 or COL3 will be superior to 2020 in projector for RGB separation and that the coverage area will be virtually identical. If so, choose the COL 2 or COL3, whichever is better and set the CMS 1 to the settings i listed above.
> 
> Now set the 100percent white point balance in the PJ using it’s controls. Then on your cube profile measurements for the LUT. Make the lUT to target UHD 2020 in ColorSpace/LightSpace and upload it. Even though the Lumagen is sending SDR 709 it is irrelevant as the LUT is targeting 2020.
> 
> See how you get on with that.
> 
> The alternative you can try, if you have time, is to CMS 1 to SDR P3 with HDR flag off and gamut covert to N. Set the PJ to 2020 colourspace or if it has it DCI and then do a profile and create a LUT for DCI P3 D65 with gamma 2.4 IN ColourSpace/LightSpace. One the LUT is uploaded go back and set Gamut Convert to Y and then compare that image quality with the SDR 2020 LUT image quality. You could use two different CMS slots in two different memories so you could easily swap between them once done.
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you so very much! It is indeed the VW870ES. Tremendous help in your post.


----------



## cappy1

*23.976 fps Setting*

Since 99% of the time I play 3840x2160p 23.976 fps material, I tried this setting on one source, Zidoo UHD2000, to minimize switching times. But the Zidoo switches back to 3840x2160p 60 fps unless I bypass the Radiance Pro. How to set the Pro allow 23.976 fps setting on the Zidoo?

Update: This seems to be an issue with Zidoo, not the Lumagen. Both my Oppo 203 and Zappiti accept frame rate settings of "24" with the radiance Pro and everything plays normally. However, I can set the Zidoo at 23.976 fps when connected to my Asus monitor as well as my TV.:frown:


----------



## Lasalle

cappy1 said:


> Since 99% of the time I play 3840x2160p 23.976 fps material, I tried this setting on one source, Zidoo UHD2000, to minimize switching times. But the Zidoo switches back to 3840x2160p 60 fps unless I bypass the Radiance Pro. How to set the Pro allow 23.976 fps setting on the Zidoo?
> 
> Update: This seems to be an issue with Zidoo, not the Lumagen. Both my Oppo 203 and Zappiti accept frame rate settings of "24" with the radiance Pro and everything plays normally. However, I can set the Zidoo at 23.976 fps when connected to my Asus monitor as well as my TV.:frown:


On the Ziddo a 23.976 frame rate is handled with the 23 setting not 24 (see Ziddo thread). You can also select the toggle to force that setting on the same setup screen.


----------



## cappy1

Lasalle said:


> On the Ziddo a 23.976 frame rate is handled with the 23 setting not 24 (see Ziddo thread). You can also select the toggle to force that setting on the same setup screen.


Thanks, but I aware of this. "23" on Zidoo is same as "24" on Oppo and Zappiti. All are 23.976 Hz. There is something going with the Zidoo and the Lumagen. If all else fails, Jim Peterson, owner, suggested sending a Zidoo to him to run some tests.


----------



## Lasalle

cappy1 said:


> Thanks, but I aware of this. "23" on Zidoo is same as "24" on Oppo and Zappiti. All are 23.976 Hz. There is something going with the Zidoo and the Lumagen. If all else fails, Jim Peterson, owner, suggested sending a Zidoo to him to run some tests.


I use a Ziddo X20 Pro and don’t have that issue. I do switch back and forth between UHD,3D and BD a lot though. Are you at 10bit, 444?


----------



## cappy1

Lasalle said:


> I use a Ziddo X20 Pro and don’t have that issue. I do switch back and forth between UHD,3D and BD a lot though. Are you at 10bit, 444?


Yes. I have no problem setting 23p when Zidoo is connected to my Asus monitor or any other TV in the house. It happens only when the Zidoo is connected to the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

Note: Jim thinks I may need a 6 meter HDMI cable. I use 3 meter certified now. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Lasalle

cappy1 said:


> Yes. I have no problem setting 23p when Zidoo is connected to my Asus monitor or any other TV in the house. It happens only when the Zidoo is connected to the Lumagen Radiance Pro.


Mine is also running through a Lumagen Radiance Pro as well.


----------



## cappy1

Lasalle said:


> Mine is also running through a Lumagen Radiance Pro as well.


Well something is different in my setup.  All the Zidoo settings are correct (YCbCr 444, 10 bit, etc.), so not sure what is going on. But, it is not a "problem" other than resync delay involved.

Thanks again for trying to help!


----------



## Lasalle

cappy1 said:


> Well something is different in my setup.  All the Zidoo settings are correct (YCbCr 444, 10 bit, etc.), so not sure what is going on. But, it is not a "problem" other than resync delay involved.
> 
> Thanks again for trying to help!


My X20 Pro sends video only to the Lumagen and audio only to a Trinnov, which may be different. A lot of the advanced Ziddo users insert a HDFury Vertex(2) in the chain to see what’s going on. You may want to message Mark Swift on the Ziddo thread he is very knowledgeable and helpful. Good Luck.


----------



## cappy1

Lasalle said:


> My X20 Pro sends video only to the Lumagen and audio only to a Trinnov, which may be different. A lot of the advanced Ziddo user insert a HDFury Vertex(2) in the chain to see what’s going on. You may want to message Mark Swift on the Ziddo thread he is very knowledgeable and helpful. Good Luck.


I have been communicating with Mark about this on the Zidoo Forum, but no eureka's. Actually, I thought you were posting from Zidoo when I got your first message. I may look into the HDFury since I need a new toy while sequestered. But will try 6 meter HDMI cable first.


----------



## Brucemck2

A bit off topic .... I’ve got a failing Lumagen Mini. How difficult would it be to replicate the settings in a new Pro? (The Mini holds the calibration settings that were done for a Wolf Xenon projector. There’s only one source - switching is done externally.)


----------



## Kris Deering

Brucemck2 said:


> A bit off topic .... Iâ€™️ve got a failing Lumagen Mini. How difficult would it be to replicate the settings in a new Pro? (The Mini holds the calibration settings that were done for a Wolf Xenon projector. Thereâ€™️s only one source - switching is done externally.)


This is something you should ask to Lumagen support. You’ll get a much better answer than speculation from forum members. 

On this, I see so many people ask questions that could be answered in seconds by Lumagen support. There is no reason to NOT ask questions like this to Lumagen directly, or your dealer. You’d get direct answers rather than a lot of the speculation and guessing I see here.


----------



## Wayne Z

*HDR Gamma*

I have a Lumagen Radiance Pro, and a Sony 885 projector. When I watch SDR material, the picture nearly always look great even without making any adjustments. However, when I watch HDR content, the picture nearly always looks dim. I nearly always have to adjust the gamma control on the projector to make the HDR picture look bright enough. The dimness is not in the highlights, but in the areas between dark and bright. The gamma was calibrated to 2.4, but this was for SDR material. Is there supposed to be a different gamma setting for HDR?


----------



## Kris Deering

Wayne Z said:


> I have a Lumagen Radiance Pro, and a Sony 885 projector. When I watch SDR material, the picture nearly always look great even without making any adjustments. However, when I watch HDR content, the picture nearly always looks dim. I nearly always have to adjust the gamma control on the projector to make the HDR picture look bright enough. The dimness is not in the highlights, but in the areas between dark and bright. The gamma was calibrated to 2.4, but this was for SDR material. Is there supposed to be a different gamma setting for HDR?


This sounds like a setup issue either in the projector, the Radiance or both. PM me and I could probably help you out.


----------



## sjschaff

Nice review of the Radiance Pro from down under: https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/lumagen-radiance-pro-video-processor-review


----------



## avdvplus

Would using Darbee on the Radiance Pro improve (sharpen) images coming from a cable TV box (1080p)? If you use Darbee for 1080p material does the image then gets upscaled to 4K by Radiance Pro (using a display that is 4K) or once Darbee is used the image is not upscaled by the Radiance Pro? Thank you.


----------



## dlinsley

avdvplus said:


> Would using Darbee on the Radiance Pro improve (sharpen) images coming from a cable TV box (1080p)? If you use Darbee for 1080p material does the image then gets upscaled to 4K by Radiance Pro (using a display that is 4K) or once Darbee is used the image is not upscaled by the Radiance Pro? Thank you.


Darbee is applied to the 1080p (or lower) image, and then upscaled. I find Darbee improves my DirecTV satellite TV image, and my output is always 4096x2160 (2.37:1 scope screen with DCR lens).


----------



## woofer

sjschaff said:


> Nice review of the Radiance Pro from down under: https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/lumagen-radiance-pro-video-processor-review


Yeah, i must say......my Lumagen 4242 has been sitting idle for a while now ..... i was prompted to upgrade the firmware to check out the latest DTM performance.....very impressive..


----------



## sjschaff

avdvplus said:


> Would using Darbee on the Radiance Pro improve (sharpen) images coming from a cable TV box (1080p)? If you use Darbee for 1080p material does the image then gets upscaled to 4K by Radiance Pro (using a display that is 4K) or once Darbee is used the image is not upscaled by the Radiance Pro? Thank you.


I wouldn't say the Darbee is about sharpening. It was developed to create depth of image and clarity in a similar way we view the real world. Two eyes creating a parallax view. I usually find it helpful but only as long as the source is really good. Seems to vary based on whether it's a video source versus a film source. It's a matter of playing with the settings to get a happy medium.


----------



## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> avdvplus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would using Darbee on the Radiance Pro improve (sharpen) images coming from a cable TV box (1080p)? If you use Darbee for 1080p material does the image then gets upscaled to 4K by Radiance Pro (using a display that is 4K) or once Darbee is used the image is not upscaled by the Radiance Pro? Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say the Darbee is about sharpening. It was developed to create depth of image and clarity in a similar way we view the real world. Two eyes creating a parallax view. I usually find it helpful but only as long as the source is really good. Seems to vary based on whether it's a video source versus a film source. It's a matter of playing with the settings to get a happy medium.
Click to expand...

Darbee is more of a local contrast adjustment. It looks for areas in the image that have contrast separation and then boosts the difference a certain amount based on the setting used. This gives the impression of a slightly sharper image. I agree you need to be very careful with the level used before artifacts become an issue for sure. If you are going to use it, I typically recommend the HD setting with a max value of around 30-40 at the most.


----------



## picree

thrang said:


> To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)- Measured LUX using a AEMC CA813 light meter with a 100% white Radiance Test pattern, making sure I was in the projector picture mode I use for HDR content. _Pointed at the projector not the screen_.
> - Converted LUX to nits (LUX/3.1459) - (used the inverse of this calculation: https://sciencing.com/convert-nits-lux-7448702.html)
> - Multiplied this by SCREEN GAIN for actual NIT value
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
> - Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu​So my measured LUX value was 555 or so. To convert to Nits, it was 551/3.1459= 176. Multiplied by 0.9 screen gain, the NIT value at center screen was 159.
> 
> 159 x6 gave me 953 for the MAX NIT value. 159 x2 gave the the low ratio target of 317, so ratio 28 was closest (311) (all math approximate here)
> 
> To check the max nit value was correct (besides Kris confirming the values!) I used a Lux to Lumen spreadsheet to input my screen size parameters, throw distance, and center screen LUX measurement. The measured peak lumens was *2634*.
> 
> From this site https://hometheatreengineering.com/projectors-screen-sizes/, there is the following calculation:
> 
> Lumens = Nits x Screen Area (in square meters) * Pi (3.14159). For me (square meters for my screen is approx 4.7), this calculated lumens to *2608*, so quite close to the spreadsheet value.
> 
> Hope this helps... if Kris corrects my ass here, I'll update the post!


 @*thrang* Old post I know. Sorry. This is the most direct post I've seen on these two settings. I still am not getting the low ratio calculation. In this case the goal is 317. I get that. but what are you looking at to decide a setting of 28 gives you 311? Are you still looking at a 100% white screen? And if so where do you see the 311 effective NIT.


And...it sounds like you are looking at the 100% white HDR pattern when setting the low ratio. I thought low ratio was for movies with a less than 2000 NIT level and it had to be set on a dark scene?


----------



## avdvplus

Kris Deering said:


> Darbee is more of a local contrast adjustment. It looks for areas in the image that have contrast separation and then boosts the difference a certain amount based on the setting used. This gives the impression of a slightly sharper image. I agree you need to be very careful with the level used before artifacts become an issue for sure. If you are going to use it, I typically recommend the HD setting with a max value of around 30-40 at the most.


Thanks all for the feedback.


----------



## OzHDHT

sjschaff said:


> Nice review of the Radiance Pro from down under: https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/lumagen-radiance-pro-video-processor-review



Nice review. So glad my 4442 didn't cost me anything like in $A terms that when I bought it 2 years. The local supplier actually had better pricing than the US dealer (that I made the error of going through due to not knowing distribution had been taken up again locally till it was too late). I'd already paid the US dealer so I was unable to cancel at that late stage (I believe Jim put a stop to that kind of purchase happening after that).


----------



## ShaharT

Is there a difference to using 'Auto4' in output settings, vs. picking a custom resolution?

I don't know why, but Auto4 instead of picking my projector's true resolution which is 4096X2160 (aka DCI 4k), is picking 3840X2160 (uhd 4k)
I know it's not that much of a difference, and I can let the projector make the final upscaling to use its native resolution. 
But while I couldn't quite see a visual difference, I still prefer to let the Lumagen handle 'all' the upscaling.
And the only way I found to do this, was to manually select this custom resolution as output, for all input/input signals. 
Is there a way for me to 'convince' Auto4 to pick up DCI 4k? I read in the manual it is supposed to automatically pick the destination resolution and thus save this first world hassle.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Is there a difference to using 'Auto4' in output settings, vs. picking a custom resolution?
> 
> I don't know why, but Auto4 instead of picking my projector's true resolution which is 4096X2160 (aka DCI 4k), is picking 3840X2160 (uhd 4k)
> I know it's not that much of a difference, and I can let the projector make the final upscaling to use its native resolution.
> But while I couldn't quite see a visual difference, I still prefer to let the Lumagen handle 'all' the upscaling.
> And the only way I found to do this, was to manually select this custom resolution as output, for all input/input signals.
> Is there a way for me to 'convince' Auto4 to pick up DCI 4k? I read in the manual it is supposed to automatically pick the destination resolution and thus save this first world hassle.


The projector is likely reporting 3840x2160 as its preferred resolution and so Auto is picking what the Projector suggests. Or it could just be that Patrick wrote the code to choose 3840 since this is the consumer standard width, and allows horizontal scaling to be turned off for 3840 wide content.

You can tell the Pro to output 4096x2160 at 24, 25, 50, or 60, as appropriate, with the direct code "MENU 0877" or you can use the MENU but the code is simpler.

Note: I believe that projectors that have 4096 wide output capability will always output 3840, if fed 3840 wide. In other words they do *not* scale 3840 wide to 4096 wide (at least by default). There might be an exception and I am sure someone will post if they know of one. If you want 4096 wide output I suggest the best option is to program the Radiance Pro to output 4096 wide using the menu code above.


----------



## jrp

Patrick did some video delay measurements with different options. The following assume the input and output frame rates are the same. These times are the same for SDR and for HDR with DTM.

Base delay: 15% of the source frame time
Extra delay based on Output Style "Top Shrink:" 1% of source frame time per 1% of top-shrink
Extra delay if Genlock is off: 0 to 1 source frame
Extra delay if Game Mode is off: 1 frame time

These are pretty accurate but not exact, and can vary slightly. We do not have exact range for this variation but expect it to be on the order of up to an additional (about) 1% of the source frame time.

Examples:

Game Mode on, Genlock on, 60 Hertz, Top Shrink = 0: 3 mS
Game Mode on, Genlock off, 60 Hertz, 10.5% Top Shrink (e.g. 2.35 screen no A-lens): 5 mS to 22 mS
Game Mode off, Genlock on, 24 Hertz, 10.5% Top Shrink: 53 mS
Game Mode off, Genlock off, 24 Hertz, 10.5% top shrink: 53 mS to 95 mS

With Genlock off the variance is based on in-to-out frame "phase" which changes over time.

As noted previously, with Game Mode on, DTM scene changes would be off by one source frame. We made this decision to allow DTM with Game mode at the minimum delay. This should not be noticeable unless there is a significant brightness change in a "scene cut."


----------



## OMARDRIS

ShaharT said:


> I don't know why, but Auto4 instead of picking my projector's true resolution which is 4096X2160 (aka DCI 4k), is picking 3840X2160 (uhd 4k)


Hi,
it is possible to send a Sony VW870ES or VW760ES a resolution of 4096 x 2160 pixels, but there are limitations. With 4096 x 2160 pixels as input signal no Motionflow is possible, only the option "Impulse". Please refer to the instruction manual of the projector.

Therefore, the projector also reports via EDID that its preferred resolution is 3840 x 2160 and the Radiance behaves correctly.
To use the full width of the panels of 4096 pixels the projector offers the "zoom function", which is prepared for movies in 1:1.85 and 1:2.35 format.

Peter


----------



## ShaharT

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> it is possible to send a Sony VW870ES or VW760ES a resolution of 4096 x 2160 pixels, but there are limitations. With 4096 x 2160 pixels as input signal no Motionflow is possible, only the option "Impulse". Please refer to the instruction manual of the projector.
> 
> Therefore, the projector also reports via EDID that its preferred resolution is 3840 x 2160 and the Radiance behaves correctly.
> To use the full width of the panels of 4096 pixels the projector offers the "zoom function", which is prepared for movies in 1:1.85 and 1:2.35 format.
> 
> Peter


Thanks for the explanation. I'm using a DCR Paladin lens with the Sony VW870ES/995ES. Am I wrong in wanting the Lumagen upscale to 4096 X 2160? I don't care about using Motionflow (should I?) and I do want to use each and every pixel the projector natively has, going through the anamorphic lens.

There's so much to learn... I keep finding out that the countless hours I spend experimenting with the devices and reading online are never enough for me to really understand all the fine details. Very much appreciate the knowledgable people here sharing their knowledge!


----------



## Craig Peer

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I'm using a DCR Paladin lens with the Sony VW870ES/995ES. Am I wrong in wanting the Lumagen upscale to 4096 X 2160? I don't care about using Motionflow (should I?) and I do want to use each and every pixel the projector natively has, going through the anamorphic lens.
> 
> There's so much to learn... I keep finding out that the countless hours I spend experimenting with the devices and reading online are never enough for me to really understand all the fine details. Very much appreciate the knowledgable people here sharing their knowledge!



If you are using a DCR lens, you need the Lumagen to send 4096 x 2160. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## avdvplus

I have a question in what order the Lumagen processing for the colorspace auto convert 2020709 occurs - is it before or after the 3D LUT calibration is applied?


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> Tech Tip:
> 
> I believe I have touched on using SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1 before, but if you do not have a JVC projector, you can simplify your interface, assuming your projector is reasonably accurate in Rec 2020 mode (e.g. Sony 4k projectors), by doing the following:
> 
> CMS0 is used for SDR 709 content, and would normally be set to Colorspace = SDR709. However since typically CMS1 (HDR content) is set to Colorspace = SDR2020, and since TVs/projectors apparently do not pay attention to the Rec 2020 Info Frame Flag, this means you have to somehow change the color format to get accurate colors. This is reasonably straight forward if you have a control system (e.g. Crestron, Control4, et. al.). However if you do not have a bidirectional control system (RS232 both to and from the Pro) you would have to do this manually.
> 
> By setting CMS0 to SDR2020 (with "Auto Convert" of color data enabled), this is the same format as the Pro would use for "HDR output in a SDR container." So if you set both CMS0 and CMS1 output to SDR2020, you do not need to change the projector color mode when switching to or from HDR. Nice if you have been doing this manually, since you can't forget, and you do not need to train others in your family to make the change.
> 
> In addition, if you want HDR to be brighter than SDR, you can turn the "White Level" down in CMS0 and leave the lamp mode the same as for HDR. These two changes together mean you would not have to make a manual change in the projector switching SDR to or from HDR.
> 
> ====
> 
> As mentioned previously, if you have a projector that only can produce colors out to Rec 709 (or less), instead set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace to SDR709, and enable Auto Convert of the color data. I have helped dealers and customers switch to SDR709 for both CMS0 and CMS1 for these type of projectors,and many cases report an instant improvement for HDR colors. The reason is it seems while many projectors report they can take Rec 2020, that they do not do the correct math to make these colors look as they should within the bounds of the projector's actual color Gamut. This also has the added advantage of not having to manually change the projectors' color space as discussed above.


Sorry for bringing back an old post, but I only just now found it. Sounds like a brilliant way to stop using two Sony profiles... One with BT2020 colorspace and one with rec709. 
Brilliant.

What I don't understand though is what 3D LUT should I create for this unified setup? Or do I still create two of them - one 3D LUT for CMS0 and another for CMS1, even though both output SDR2020? If it is two separate ones, I guess I should turn auto-convert off while making them, and then back on? Some little more information about what should be the targets set for the 3D LUT for each CMS0 & CMS1 would be super helpful.

For reference, I'm using a Sony 4K 870ES/995ES via a Paladin DCR lens. And at the moment my family always forgets to switch a projector preset, so SDR content is painful to watch - everyone is too red


----------



## dgkula

@giomania your DTM guide is no longer there - would you have an updated version to share? Thx!


----------



## giomania

dgkula said:


> @giomania your DTM guide is no longer there - would you have an updated version to share? Thx!


Sorry, with all the changes they were making to DTM over the past year, I deleted it but forgot to update my signature. You can find the information in the larger setup guide, then just delete the pages you don't need.

Mark


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Sorry for bringing back an old post, but I only just now found it. Sounds like a brilliant way to stop using two Sony profiles... One with BT2020 colorspace and one with rec709.
> Brilliant.
> 
> What I don't understand though is what 3D LUT should I create for this unified setup? Or do I still create two of them - one 3D LUT for CMS0 and another for CMS1, even though both output SDR2020? If it is two separate ones, I guess I should turn auto-convert off while making them, and then back on? Some little more information about what should be the targets set for the 3D LUT for each CMS0 & CMS1 would be super helpful.
> 
> For reference, I'm using a Sony 4K 870ES/995ES via a Paladin DCR lens. And at the moment my family always forgets to switch a projector preset, so SDR content is painful to watch - everyone is too red


Glad you find the idea useful.

You can do one SDR Gamma 2.4 1D (and 3D if you have Lightspace or Colorspace) in CMS0 to Rec 2020 targets. Manually set the projector to a Rec2020 color mode (for JVC's you can use the "HDR" color mode which is 2020 but without the color filter in place).

To be safe on which CMS is selected temporarily set both SDR and HDR columns in the "Output Setup Menu" to CMS0 and also temporarily turn "Auto convert" off. Changing these will insure the Pro selects CMS0 and does not convert the data when you don't want it to even if the calibration software does not set up the modes "just right."

Once done, undo the above changes (auto convert back on for both CMS0 and CMS1, and set the Output Setup HDR column to CMS1), and copy CMS0 to CMS1. Then enable HDR Mapping and set the Max Light as usual for CMS1. Save your changes.

Note: Portrait Displays is working on a new version of Calman that can do a good job on a 3D LUT for Rec 2020. Until it is released, you can at least profile 2020 using Calman to see if you have reasonable dE's.

=========== 

After the above, here is a way to improve CMS0 for SDR 709 content.

Setup for a SDR Bt.1886 Rec 709 calibration as normal. Leave CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020, and leave 2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert enabled (yes, leave Auto Convert on). Run a SDR 709 calibration just like you would normally do. Since the Pro is converting the Rec 709 patterns to Rec 2020 data, and the projector is in a Rec 2020 color mode, the Rec 709 pattern colors with be displayed correctly for doing the Rec 709 calibration. This allows you to do a 3D LUT with Calman or Lightspace or Chromapure since you only need Rec 709 Gamut for this.

I have noticed, and others have as well, that doing SDR Rec 709 calibration using this method can improve dE's for primary/secondary colors since the projector/TV is not doing anything to try to limit the Gamut to Rec 709, and so there can be a bit more "headroom" in the Gamut for Rec 709 in Rec 2020 color mode.

=========== 

Good hunting.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> Glad you find the idea useful.
> 
> You can do one SDR Gamma 2.4 1D (and 3D if you have Lightspace or Colorspace) in CMS0 to Rec 2020 targets. Manually set the projector to a Rec2020 color mode (for JVC's you can use the "HDR" color mode which is 2020 but without the color filter in place).
> 
> To be safe on which CMS is selected temporarily set both SDR and HDR columns in the "Output Setup Menu" to CMS0 and also temporarily turn "Auto convert" off. Changing these will insure the Pro selects CMS0 and does not convert the data when you don't want it to even if the calibration software does not set up the modes "just right."
> 
> Once done, undo the above changes (auto convert back on for both CMS0 and CMS1, and set the Output Setup HDR column to CMS1), and copy CMS0 to CMS1. Then enable HDR Mapping and set the Max Light as usual for CMS1. Save your changes.
> 
> Note: Portrait Displays is working on a new version of Calman that can do a good job on a 3D LUT for Rec 2020. Until it is released, you can at least profile 2020 using Calman to see if you have reasonable dE's.
> 
> ===========
> 
> After the above, here is a way to improve CMS0 for SDR 709 content.
> 
> Setup for a SDR Bt.1886 Rec 709 calibration as normal. Leave CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020, and leave 2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert enabled (yes, leave Auto Convert on). Run a SDR 709 calibration just like you would normally do. Since the Pro is converting the Rec 709 patterns to Rec 2020 data, and the projector is in a Rec 2020 color mode, the Rec 709 pattern colors with be displayed correctly for doing the Rec 709 calibration. This allows you to do a 3D LUT with Calman or Lightspace or Chromapure since you only need Rec 709 Gamut for this.
> 
> I have noticed, and others have as well, that doing SDR Rec 709 calibration using this method can improve dE's for primary/secondary colors since the projector/TV is not doing anything to try to limit the Gamut to Rec 709, and so there can be a bit more "headroom" in the Gamut for Rec 709 in Rec 2020 color mode.
> 
> ===========
> 
> Good hunting.


 @jrp - thank you for the explanation!

To make sure I got this right: the order of calibration should be as you wrote it, and the section under with the title 'After the above' is not an alternative way to calibrate cms0 and copy it to cms1, rather after this is done per your explanation before that, and copied to cms1, this second part is another method to create a new calibration for cms0 that improves it for SDR (but does not get copied as well to cms1)?

Or is it an alternative process to calibrating both? I want to make sure I didn't confuse your explanation.

Yes, happy hunting it is indeed. The more hours I spend with the Lumagen the more excited I get about what a phenomenal product you've created!


----------



## SJHT

How’s PIP/POP coming along for us 444x owners? Still want it!


----------



## Karl Maga

ShaharT said:


> @jrp - thank you for the explanation!
> 
> To make sure I got this right: the order of calibration should be as you wrote it, and the section under with the title 'After the above' is not an alternative way to calibrate cms0 and copy it to cms1, rather after this is done per your explanation before that, and copied to cms1, this second part is another method to create a new calibration for cms0 that improves it for SDR (but does not get copied as well to cms1)?
> 
> Or is it an alternative process to calibrating both? I want to make sure I didn't confuse your explanation.
> 
> Yes, happy hunting it is indeed. *The more hours I spend with the Lumagen the more excited I get about what a phenomenal product you've created*!


There’s really NOTHING else like it.


----------



## docrog

I thought that the Radiance Pro offered a way to re-position subtitles/closed captioning. I've worked my way through the menus but I've been unable to find it. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I thought that the Radiance Pro offered a way to re-position subtitles/closed captioning. I've worked my way through the menus but I've been unable to find it. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


No, the Radiance does not do this. It would impossible as it is an element of the video itself and not separate. Some playback devices offer this (Oppo, Panasonic) but not the Lumagen.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> No, the Radiance does not do this. It would impossible as it is an element of the video itself and not separate. Some playback devices offer this (Oppo, Panasonic) but not the Lumagen.


Thanks, Kris. That certainly makes sense. Silly me!


----------



## THE DU3C3

ShaharT, post: 58529264
Hi, a complete newbie question, sorry for it being so basic.
Got the Lumagen Radiance pro 4446 installed and working great.
Tried to upgrade the firmware. Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
What am I missing?
Thanks!

Quoting old posts doesn't seem to be functional after the update, but I'm having the same problem as the above poster. Tried the FTDI driver solution but that didn't fix the problem. When I connect the Lumagen to my PC should I hear the normal "new attached device" sound? I've tried three separate Windows 10 PCs (2 x laptops, 1 x desktop) and I get nothing. I have Echo on enabled in the Lumagen but I don't know if I'm missing another setting to enable the I/O. I've been at this for the last two days and it's getting really frustrating.


----------



## Craig Peer

I just used trial and error to figure out which port is the one the USB cable is plugged into. I had a choice of 1, 2 or 3. If you pick the wrong one you'll get an error code. Just try a different one then.


----------



## EVH78

THE DU3C3 said:


> ShaharT, post: 58529264
> When I connect the Lumagen to my PC should I hear the normal "new attached device" sound? I've tried three separate Windows 10 PCs (2 x laptops, 1 x desktop) and I get nothing. I have Echo on enabled in the Lumagen but I don't know if I'm missing another setting to enable the I/O. I've been at this for the last two days and it's getting really frustrating.


I always get the "new device attached sound" using my laptop with the radiance. Try to go to the hardware manager and find the Lumagen in there. It should tell you which com-port is used.


----------



## THE DU3C3

Yeah I’m not getting the new device sound and the Lumagen isn’t listed in the Device Manager. Process of elimination is either a bad USB cable or I’m missing a setting in the Lumagen. To turn the connection on in the Lumagen it’s simply enabling the Echo on right? Is there another setting that I’m missing?


----------



## EVH78

THE DU3C3 said:


> Yeah I’m not getting the new device sound and the Lumagen isn’t listed in the Device Manager. Process of elimination is either a bad USB cable or I’m missing a setting in the Lumagen. To turn the connection on in the Lumagen it’s simply enabling the Echo on right? Is there another setting that I’m missing?


Not exactly sure what you mean by enabling "the echo on". I just connect the radiance and turn it on. Did you follow these steps:



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf



It tells you how to find the com-ports also.


----------



## stefanop

Sorry for the out of topic, with the new AVS forum can't no more find the last read button. I do read this discussion multiple times a day and I can obviusly remember the last I've read but the button which bring me to the last read message was faster. Sorry again for the out of topic but I'm sure one of you has a prompt and right answer.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Just click the thread. It automatically takes you to last read post.


----------



## stefanop

Mike Garrett said:


> Just click the thread. It automatically takes you to last read post.


Thank you very much Mike, thank you very much.

Sorry again to everybody for the OOT. It's closed.


----------



## THE DU3C3

EVH78 said:


> Not exactly sure what you mean by enabling "the echo on". I just connect the radiance and turn it on. Did you follow these steps:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> It tells you how to find the com-ports also.


Yes I followed those, but nothing is listed under the COM & LPT ports. In fact on my two laptops the COM & LPT device option isn't even there. I have to go through the whole add a legacy device process in order to pull those up. Once I do they have an error. I sent an email to Lumagen support but I haven't heard back yet. Maybe @jrp is following the thread today and chimes in.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> @jrp - thank you for the explanation!
> 
> To make sure I got this right: the order of calibration should be as you wrote it, and the section under with the title 'After the above' is not an alternative way to calibrate cms0 and copy it to cms1, rather after this is done per your explanation before that, and copied to cms1, this second part is another method to create a new calibration for cms0 that improves it for SDR (but does not get copied as well to cms1)?
> 
> Or is it an alternative process to calibrating both? I want to make sure I didn't confuse your explanation.
> 
> Yes, happy hunting it is indeed. The more hours I spend with the Lumagen the more excited I get about what a phenomenal product you've created!


Thanks for the kind words.

The second section for calibrating to Rec 709 with auto convert to SDR2020 and the projector in 2020 mode, is to be done after the first section _if_ you plan to copy from CMS0 to CMS1 for use for HDR (in CMS1).

The issue is that since in the second section you are calibrating to Rec 709, _only_ Rec 709 data points are processed. This might end up okay since the points outside 709 are not changed, but it can cause an issue in some cases. The issue is one of potential contouring due to point near the Rec 709 limit being changed and points outside the Rec 709 limit being left as they were. This can create either an "extra large" or an "extra small" step. Calibration needs consistent gradients to prevent contouring and an uncontrolled step may cause a contour near the Rec 709 Gamut limits for HDR content outside the Rec 709 Gamut.


----------



## jrp

THE DU3C3 said:


> Yes I followed those, but nothing is listed under the COM & LPT ports. In fact on my two laptops the COM & LPT device option isn't even there. I have to go through the whole add a legacy device process in order to pull those up. Once I do they have an error. I sent an email to Lumagen support but I haven't heard back yet. Maybe @jrp is following the thread today and chimes in.


I have not seen your email. So likely went to SPAM.

Your situation has not come up before that I know of. If you are using Windows 10, have you typed "Device Manager" in the search window at the lower left of the desktop? It should have a LPT/COM section.

You can try downloading the USB-to-serial chip driver from here:






VCP Drivers - FTDI







www.ftdichip.com





However, given you have a different issue than I have heard of before it might not help.

You can call us at 503-574-2211 Option 2 if you want to discuss.


----------



## David Shapiro

Hi All,

I just went back to aLumagen. The new search function here leaves something to be desired. I have a simple question. Do people leave their unit on all the time, or just turn it on, in my case via Control 4, when you use your system.

BTW, I have a laptop with Windows 10 and it was really hard to figure out the Com # for the unit. It was randomly assigned 3. I had to download an app to find it. For some reason, Windows 10, at least on my computer, doesn’t just tell you.

Thanks,
David
David


----------



## THE DU3C3

jrp said:


> I have not seen your email. So likely went to SPAM.
> 
> Your situation has not come up before that I know of. If you are using Windows 10, have you typed "Device Manager" in the search window at the lower left of the desktop? It should have a LPT/COM section.
> 
> You can try downloading the USB-to-serial chip driver from here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VCP Drivers - FTDI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ftdichip.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, given you have a different issue than I have heard of before it might not help.
> 
> You can call us at 503-574-2211 Option 2 if you want to discuss.


I picked up a USB to RS232 cable and connected that and voila! we are connected. So it looks like the USB B connection on the Lumagen is broken. This was a B stock unit so don't know if that got missed or what's happening.


----------



## Mike Garrett

David Shapiro said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I just went back to aLumagen. The new search function here leaves something to be desired. I have a simple question. Do people leave their unit on all the time, or just turn it on, in my case via Control 4, when you use your system.
> 
> BTW, I have a laptop with Windows 10 and it was really hard to figure out the Com # for the unit. It was randomly assigned 3. I had to download an app to find it. For some reason, Windows 10, at least on my computer, doesn’t just tell you.
> 
> Thanks,
> David
> David


Like others said, I just go to device manager, find which com port Lumagen is connected to and then select it on the Lumagen firmware. Then update process goes smooth.


----------



## Craig Peer

I turn mine on when I use it and off when I'm done.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Same here. My universal remote turns on all equipment, including Lumagen and turns off all equipment, when I hit off button.


----------



## SJHT

Same here. Turns off with everything else. Also leaving it on actually leaves the fan on as well....


----------



## David Shapiro

Thanks to all. Sounds like everybody just turns it on when using your system. That’s what I’ll do.
David


----------



## woofer

Craig Peer said:


> I turn mine on when I use it and off when I'm done.


Same here....


----------



## docrog

Per a prior series of postings here with @jrp, there's no downside to turning the unit off when finished watching. He OK'd power being removed to the unit via one of my AVR's triggers; the Lumagen initially goes into standby mode and then powers off entirely. When power is subsequently restored via AVR powering on the trigger, the unit initially (and briefly) enters standby and then full power on.


----------



## Mike Garrett

I am using the IR port on the back of the Lumagen. My Harmony sends a power on signal at the start of any activity. On shut down of the system, the lumagen goes into standby.


----------



## jqmn

Is it possible to set the bit-depth for HDMI output independently of the chroma level (i.e., take an input of 4:4:4 10-bit or 4:2:0 10-bit and output it as 4:2:2 8-bit or 12-bit)? Thank-you.


----------



## *Harry*

Regarding IR - very rarely my Pro erroneously does respond to the JVC Projector IR remote; then the information page pops up on screen in almost every case.

It's not a big problem, but I wonder, if there's any chance for a FW improvement to discard those erroneously received commands ... ?


----------



## jrp

jqmn said:


> Is it possible to set the bit-depth for HDMI output independently of the chroma level (i.e., take an input of 4:4:4 10-bit or 4:2:0 10-bit and output it as 4:2:2 8-bit or 12-bit)? Thank-you.


The Pro can reduce the output bit precision for the selected format using the Pro "Output Dither" setting in the Styles->Style0->HDMI format menu.


----------



## jrp

*Harry* said:


> Regarding IR - very rarely my Pro erroneously does respond to the JVC Projector IR remote; then the information page pops up on screen in almost every case.
> 
> It's not a big problem, but I wonder, if there's any chance for a FW improvement to discard those erroneously received commands ... ?


We do not have other reports of the JVC IR commands overlapping the Radiance Pro IR commands, but it is possible.

If the Pro receives IR pulses that form a valid command, there is no way to tell the Pro to not interpret a valid command as a valid command, nor should there be. So it is not a shortcoming in the software, but a shortcoming in the industry that IR code overlap can occur.

==== 

One thing that might mitigate this: It sounds like the overlap is on the "OK" button since by default this would bring up the Info Page. You can turn off the "show Info on an OK button" feature by entering MENU 0927, then do a Save. You can check this feature is disabled by then pressing the OK button to make sure the Info Page does not come up. Based on your description I think this will eliminate this issue for you. The Pro would still receive the errant "OK" IR command, but this causes no harm if the Menu is not active.

Note: If you disable the Info Screen showing when you press OK, you can still see the Info page by pressing MENU and then down arrow until you highlight the "Info" menu entry.


----------



## picree

Catching up on this thread. I am about 7 months back. Calibration question re: Tone Mapping on a projector. The last recommendation I read said start with the Low Ratio at 1x and the Global Max Light at 5x. A while back someone here detailed how to measure the max light from the projector. Which way is it?

1) Use a light meter off the screen with a 100% white HDR full-screen test pattern.
2) Use a light meter with a diffuser pointed at the projector with a 100% white HDR full-screen test pattern. (Is this what is called "diffuse white"?

If the method is to measure diffuse white where do we place the meter? Right at the screen looking back at the projector? Some fixed distance back towards the projector?


----------



## Kris Deering

You want to know how much light is coming OFF the screen, as the screen may be increasing or decreasing the amount of light you're getting from the projector.


----------



## ShaharT

For you guys with projectors, do you set them to Full, Limited, or Auto HDMI dynamic range signal, and if you do change from the default which is Auto, does it entail a change of settings in your Lumagen to work with that change?

From what I've read, projectors should be set to 'Limited', as video content is within this range (16-235). However, when I do that and run the Spears & Munsil calibration disc / brightness etc. test patterns, it seems I'm missing details, that show up when I change the projector back to 'Full'. 

Similarly, when it comes to creating 3d lut, some calibration apps (like Lightspace/Colourspace) allow you to specify whether patterns should be 0-255 or 16-235. I've tried multiple combinations of these with Full/Limited and I'm still not getting to the bottom of this.


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> We do not have other reports of the JVC IR commands overlapping the Radiance Pro IR commands, but it is possible.


That's interesting. I observed this for years with several JVC X-series Projectors here in my HC.



jrp said:


> If the Pro receives IR pulses that form a valid command, there is no way to tell the Pro to not interpret a valid command as a valid command, nor should there be. So it is not a shortcoming in the software, but a shortcoming in the industry that IR code overlap can occur.


Yes, and I'm afraid, that in worst cases multiple reflected / overlapped JVC impulses in the room are look like code pulses of a Pro remote.

I think, that the Pro FW starts a gate time of n ms when it gets triggered by a new recevied IR code after a while, collecting every packet as long as the gate is open, before it decides to execute a command or throw it away. If so, the idea is to extend this time frame a little longer + test, whether all received code packets contained therein are identical and w/o jitter. Maybe something like that could reduce the effect - of course only, if you do all that by SW or FPGA logic.

Honestly said, with my current Pro device that doesn't happen as often as with the previous one. So thanks for your suggestion regarding disabling the OK button, but it would only help in one case - one other (rare) effect is the change of the aspect ratio ... it depends on which button or -sequence I use on the JVC Remote control; most times these are the MENU, the navigation and the OK button.


----------



## jpvision

I've been reading through this thread. Is anyone using a pro to drive a 85" or larger 4K LCD screen? If so, have you seen any benefits.


----------



## riddle

Hi, i realy needs some little help with seting. Right now i use this combination JVC DLA N7, Lumagen Radiance PRO 4446 and Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. I set output on my Lumagen to 4090x2160 (based on what Craig wrote here to some others member). All works greate but not for netflix or 16:9 content like PS4 games. Netflix has a lot of shifted captions out of the picture so i must use on my JVC Anamorphic D mode and for 2.35:1 content i use JVC Anamorphic C. Or Lumagen can handle all of this? The difference in brightness between Anamorphic C and D is quite large not only for me but also for my wife.  

Thanks


----------



## GerryWaz

jpvision said:


> I've been reading through this thread. Is anyone using a pro to drive a 85" or larger 4K LCD screen? If so, have you seen any benefits.





jpvision said:


> I've been reading through this thread. Is anyone using a pro to drive a 85" or larger 4K LCD screen? If so, have you seen any benefits.


Well, it's not a 85" but I've seen the benefits on my 75" Sony LCD. Not as dramatic visually as on my old Sony 1080p LCOS set but still there nonetheless. Depending on the source and resolution, there are times I just can't believe how good the image is. I just need some pro calibration fine-tuning for 4K HDR.

Add in the switching abilities and it's a winner for me.


----------



## jrp

riddle said:


> Hi, i realy needs some little help with seting. Right now i use this combination JVC DLA N7, Lumagen Radiance PRO 4446 and Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. I set output on my Lumagen to 4090x2160 (based on what Craig wrote here to some others member). All works great but not for netflix or 16:9 content like PS4 games. Netflix has a lot of shifted captions out of the picture so i must use on my JVC Anamorphic D mode and for 2.35:1 content i use JVC Anamorphic C. Or Lumagen can handle all of this? The difference in brightness between Anamorphic C and D is quite large not only for me but also for my wife.
> 
> Thanks


I would be happy to help but this would be best done on the phone. There are some details best You can call our support line at 503-574-2211 Option 2 after about 9 AM Pacific time and into the evening Pacific time.

====

In the mean time, at a high level:

You can setup a "Memory" (e.g. MEMA to MEMD), and have a different amount of "shrink" in the output so that content not in the active raster is still visible. You do not need to change any setting in the projector for this. The Radiance Pro does all the heavy lifting.

You use the Output Setup Menu to select "All" for input, MEMB (for example), and "All" for input resolutions, then right arrow over under the Style column and select a different Style (Style 1 for example). Press OK to accept and then press EXIT. Then select MEMB (assuming that's the one you choose).

Since you have a Paladin, you may need to change the output aspect for this memory (in Style 1 if that is what you choose) so the content naturally appears shorter so the out-of-active area you need is visible. This is essentially miss-reporting the output aspect so the image is smaller and you can see the out of active raster content. Then you can adjust vertical shift in the Input menu, and/or Output Shrink (may need this for both top/Bottom, and for Left/Right) in the Style 1 menu as needed. Do a Save once you are done.

This should allow you to use MEMB to shrink the active area and adjust of the active area looks good, but the out-of-active-area where the captions appear is also visible.


----------



## jrp

We are getting close to an enhancement release for DTM. This only affect a very few tough scenes, but we are excited about improving these important scenes.

Scenes affected are where a spotlight, or the Sun, pans into image in a way that does not cause a "Scene Cut." The beginning of "The Meg" panning across the submarine's spotlight, the beginning of "The Martian" where the Sun comes out from behind Mars, and the "Boat Spot Light" scene in Jaws HDR release (I think this is just over 44 minutes in, but might be remembering wrong), are three cases in point. These, and any other scenes with similar characteristics, are improved with this upcoming release.

==========================================================

There is a new Radiance Pro feature for use with the Kaleidescape Strato:

This release also has a new feature for the Strato where the Pro can use the HDMI Info Frame "Graphics Flag" (set while showing the OSD), to distinguish it from video content (HDMI Info Frame reports "Video"). Here is the overview:

The Strato only outputs its OSD at 50 or 60 Hertz. To use this new feature to speed up movie starts we program the Pro output 24 Hertz for the Strato OSD, and for 24 Hertz video, and then have the Pro output 60 Hertz for 60 Hertz video content. This allows us to optimize the time it takes starting Strato movies at 24 Hertz, and still have 60 Hertz video content show at 60 Hertz automatically. I first program the Pro to "match content" for vertical rate (MENU 0872 for 3840 wide or MENU 0877 for 4096 wide). Then I program the Pro to output 4k24 for the OSD (using the Graphics Flag to know when this is). To do this I first use the new menu entry Input.Options.HDMI Setup.Use Graphics Flag = Yes (or it will be named something similar). Then I use the Output Setup Menu to select the Strato-input-number for the Input column, "All" for Memory, and "Other" for Input Mode. Then select 4k24 (either 4096 wide or 3840 wide, as appropriate) for the Output Mode. Then press OK, and then EXIT, and then do a Save. As this implies the Pro uses the "Other" input mode detection (usually reserved for PC resolutions) for this new feature.

The Pro should be set to SDR709 for both CMS0 and CMS1, or SDRP3 for both CMS0 and CMS1, or SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1. Also HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert. These settings eliminate the Radiance Pro output restart that happens going from the OSD (SDR709) to/from an HDR movie.

In the Strato IP setup interface you need to go to: Settings -> Video -> Advanced Video Settings -> HDMI Content Type Metadata, and select the "Transmit content type metadata" option.

With this feature a 24 Hertz movie starts, or stops, take about 6 seconds in our Lumagen Demo Theater. This is the time the Strato takes to change from its 60 Hertz OSD, to 24 Hertz for movie content, and for the Pro to lock on to the change. It includes the time to start the movie (which I also believe is around 6 seconds. I say this since switching input rate on the Pro without an output change takes about 3 seconds and this case should be the same. This indicates the output rate change lock-on time at the Pro input does not increase the movie start time).

This is one of those cases where owning the company allows me to get a feature no one else has even asked for . However, I think many Strato owners will like the ability to start movies faster (at the cost of a slower start time for 60 Hertz Video content). Side note: This might prove useful in certain cases for PCs, _if_ the PC uses the Video/Graphics flags.

NOTE: I am not currently using the Kaleidescape "Costar" feature in the Lumagen Demo Theater. So I am not sure how content actually played form the "Costar" HDMI output (e.g. DVI discs not on the hard drive) will work with this feature. I have recently learned that content that is stored on the Costar hard-drive is actually played through the Strato. So this content should work with this feature.


----------



## Craig Peer

That’s great news Jim. Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> This release also has a new feature for the Strato where the Pro can use the HDMI Info Frame "Graphics Flag" (set while showing the OSD), to distinguish it from video content (HDMI Info Frame reports "Video"). Here is the overview:
> 
> The Strato only outputs its OSD at 50 or 60 Hertz. To use this new feature to speed up movie starts we program the Pro output 24 Hertz for the Strato OSD, and for 24 Hertz video, and then have the Pro output 60 Hertz for 60 Hertz video content. This allows us to optimize the time it takes starting Strato movies at 24 Hertz, and still have 60 Hertz video content show at 60 Hertz automatically. I first program the Pro to "match content" for vertical rate (MENU 0872 for 3840 wide or MENU 0877 for 4096 wide). Then I program the Pro to output 4k24 for the OSD (using the Graphics Flag to know when this is). To do this I first use the new menu entry Input.Options.HDMI Setup.Use Graphics Flag = Yes (or it will be named something similar). Then I use the Output Setup Menu to select the Strato-input-number for the Input column, "All" for Memory, and "Other" for Input Mode. Then select 4k24 (either 4096 wide or 3840 wide, as appropriate) for the Output Mode. Then press OK, and then EXIT, and then do a Save. As this implies the Pro uses the "Other" input mode detection (usually reserved for PC resolutions) for this new feature.
> 
> The Pro should be set to SDR709 for both CMS0 and CMS1, or SDRP3 for both CMS0 and CMS1, or SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1. Also HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert. These settings eliminate the Radiance Pro output restart that happens going from the OSD (SDR709) to/from an HDR movie.
> 
> In the Strato IP setup interface you need to go to: Settings -> Video -> Advanced Video Settings -> HDMI Content Type Metadata, and select the "Transmit content type metadata" option.


Jim - For technically challenged users - how about posting Youtube Videos of such instructions - most folks can follow video instructions way better than write ups.
Will also help your internet presence and google clicks...
My two cents


----------



## Mike Garrett

*Harry* said:


> That's interesting. I observed this for years with several JVC X-series Projectors here in my HC.
> 
> 
> Yes, and I'm afraid, that in worst cases multiple reflected / overlapped JVC impulses in the room are look like code pulses of a Pro remote.
> 
> I think, that the Pro FW starts a gate time of n ms when it gets triggered by a new recevied IR code after a while, collecting every packet as long as the gate is open, before it decides to execute a command or throw it away. If so, the idea is to extend this time frame a little longer + test, whether all received code packets contained therein are identical and w/o jitter. Maybe something like that could reduce the effect - of course only, if you do all that by SW or FPGA logic.
> 
> Honestly said, with my current Pro device that doesn't happen as often as with the previous one. So thanks for your suggestion regarding disabling the OK button, but it would only help in one case - one other (rare) effect is the change of the aspect ratio ... it depends on which button or -sequence I use on the JVC Remote control; most times these are the MENU, the navigation and the OK button.


I have none of these issues in my room and I know a whole bunch of people with JVC's and Lumagens that also do not have this issue. In fact I do not know of anyone else that has this issue with Lumagen, when paired with a JVC.


----------



## Craig Peer

*Harry* said:


> Regarding IR - very rarely my Pro erroneously does respond to the JVC Projector IR remote; then the information page pops up on screen in almost every case.
> 
> It's not a big problem, but I wonder, if there's any chance for a FW improvement to discard those erroneously received commands ... ?


I've never had this happen with my RS4500.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> We are getting close to an enhancement release for DTM. This only affect a very few tough scenes, but we are excited about improving these important scenes.
> 
> Scenes affected are where a spotlight, or the Sun, pans into image in a way that does not cause a "Scene Cut." The beginning of "The Meg" panning across the submarine's spotlight, the beginning of "The Martian" where the Sun comes out from behind Mars, and the "Boat Spot Light" scene in Jaws HDR release (I think this is just over 44 minutes in, but might be remembering wrong), are three cases in point. These, and any other scenes with similar characteristics, are improved with this upcoming release.
> 
> ==========================================================
> 
> There is a new Radiance Pro feature for use with the Kaleidescape Strato:
> 
> This release also has a new feature for the Strato where the Pro can use the HDMI Info Frame "Graphics Flag" (set while showing the OSD), to distinguish it from video content (HDMI Info Frame reports "Video"). Here is the overview:
> 
> The Strato only outputs its OSD at 50 or 60 Hertz. To use this new feature to speed up movie starts we program the Pro output 24 Hertz for the Strato OSD, and for 24 Hertz video, and then have the Pro output 60 Hertz for 60 Hertz video content. This allows us to optimize the time it takes starting Strato movies at 24 Hertz, and still have 60 Hertz video content show at 60 Hertz automatically. I first program the Pro to "match content" for vertical rate (MENU 0872 for 3840 wide or MENU 0877 for 4096 wide). Then I program the Pro to output 4k24 for the OSD (using the Graphics Flag to know when this is). To do this I first use the new menu entry Input.Options.HDMI Setup.Use Graphics Flag = Yes (or it will be named something similar). Then I use the Output Setup Menu to select the Strato-input-number for the Input column, "All" for Memory, and "Other" for Input Mode. Then select 4k24 (either 4096 wide or 3840 wide, as appropriate) for the Output Mode. Then press OK, and then EXIT, and then do a Save. As this implies the Pro uses the "Other" input mode detection (usually reserved for PC resolutions) for this new feature.
> 
> The Pro should be set to SDR709 for both CMS0 and CMS1, or SDRP3 for both CMS0 and CMS1, or SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1. Also HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert. These settings eliminate the Radiance Pro output restart that happens going from the OSD (SDR709) to/from an HDR movie.
> 
> In the Strato IP setup interface you need to go to: Settings -> Video -> Advanced Video Settings -> HDMI Content Type Metadata, and select the "Transmit content type metadata" option.
> 
> With this feature a 24 Hertz movie starts, or stops, take about 6 seconds in our Lumagen Demo Theater. This is the time the Strato takes to change from its 60 Hertz OSD, to 24 Hertz for movie content, and for the Pro to lock on to the change. It includes the time to start the movie (which I also believe is around 6 seconds. I say this since switching input rate on the Pro without an output change takes about 3 seconds and this case should be the same. This indicates the output rate change lock-on time at the Pro input does not increase the movie start time).
> 
> This is one of those cases where owning the company allows me to get a feature no one else has even asked for . However, I think many Strato owners will like the ability to start movies faster (at the cost of a slower start time for 60 Hertz Video content). Side note: This might prove useful in certain cases for PCs, _if_ the PC uses the Video/Graphics flags.
> 
> NOTE: I am not currently using the Kaleidescape "Costar" feature in the Lumagen Demo Theater. So I am not sure how content actually played form the "Costar" HDMI output (e.g. DVI discs not on the hard drive) will work with this feature. I have recently learned that content that is stored on the Costar hard-drive is actually played through the Strato. So this content should work with this feature.


Looking forward to use this option with K-scape and i think it will work with the barco /K-scape feature to transmit the right metadata option in K-scape well done @jrp silence then boom again another great upgrade with a lot of feature  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

*Harry* said:


> Regarding IR - very rarely my Pro erroneously does respond to the JVC Projector IR remote; then the information page pops up on screen in almost every case.
> 
> It's not a big problem, but I wonder, if there's any chance for a FW improvement to discard those erroneously received commands ... ?


I use a Harmony remote and it has never happened with that, but Harmony's IR pulse train often doesn't much look like the OEM remote with respect to inter-key etc timings. 

Out of interest, is there anything non-standard about IR in your room - are you using IR extenders or anything like that?


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.
I have a question about Sony VPL-VW885ES and Lumagen Radiance Pro. Right now Sony 885ES has firmware bug with HDR mode.
Can the firmware bug(the near black bug/posterization issue and banding in HDR mode) be solved completely with Lumagen Radiance Pro?
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## EVH78

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I have a question about Sony VPL-VW885ES and Lumagen Radiance Pro. Right now Sony 885ES has firmware bug with HDR mode.
> Can the firmware bug(the near black bug/posterization issue and banding in HDR mode) be solved completely with Lumagen Radiance Pro?
> Thank you for your help and support.


I answered your question in the Sony thread already 
The answer is still no. BUT: there will be a new firmware for the near black bug this fall, unfortunately banding cannot be resolved at this point with Sony projectors. I checked all dithering settings on the Lumagen, no success. It might be panel related (8bit/10bit) in the Sony. I don´t know if it´s possible to programm the radiance to eliminate banding, maybe Jim knows.You could write him a pm to [email protected].


----------



## picree

Running an LRP with a JVC RS2000. For calibration purposes (may be the wrong reason) I was exploring the option to calibrate and run in DCI-P3 colorspace. The LRP warns that DCI with YCbCr might work but is not supported. Due to bandwidth limits I tried calibrating to DCI-P3 with YCbCr422 using Chromapure but it fails the calibration with a messed up grayscale. Is that because of the YCbCr422? Seems weird. Certainly could be an issue with the software.

FWIW, I thought calibrating against DCI-P3 was a good idea because everything is mastered to that and my projector can only do DCI-P3 anyways. Also, if I calibrate against SDR2020, Chromapure reports the projector's performance (DCI-P3) against BT.2020...which is way off (again maybe this is just a software issue).


----------



## Mike Garrett

picree said:


> Running an LRP with a JVC RS2000. For calibration purposes (may be the wrong reason) I was exploring the option to calibrate and run in DCI-P3 colorspace. The LRP warns that DCI with YCbCr might work but is not supported. Due to bandwidth limits I tried calibrating to DCI-P3 with YCbCr422 using Chromapure but it fails the calibration with a messed up grayscale. Is that because of the YCbCr422? Seems weird. Certainly could be an issue with the software.
> 
> FWIW,* I thought calibrating against DCI-P3 was a good idea because everything is mastered to that and my projector can only do DCI-P3 anyways. * Also, if I calibrate against SDR2020, Chromapure reports the projector's performance (DCI-P3) against BT.2020...which is way off (again maybe this is just a software issue).


4K HDR is BT2020 container but currently only using a color space that is the size of DCI-P3. DCI-P3 mode is in the projector for commercial use for like screening rooms showing actual DCI content, think Hollywood. You should not be using DCI mode.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> NOTE: I am not currently using the Kaleidescape "Costar" feature in the Lumagen Demo Theater. So I am not sure how content actually played form the "Costar" HDMI output (e.g. DVI discs not on the hard drive) will work with this feature. I have recently learned that content that is stored on the Costar hard-drive is actually played through the Strato. So this content should work with this feature.


Not sure what a Costar hard-drive is, but movies played from a paired system (either Premier or an Encore Alto/DV700) use the OSD of the Strato and then switch to a different HDMI output for movie playback (per defined in the Lumagen Pro). Can that other HDMI output also be configured the same? Most movies played from that output are 1080P24. Thanks for adding this feature! SJ


----------



## jrp

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I have a question about Sony VPL-VW885ES and Lumagen Radiance Pro. Right now Sony 885ES has firmware bug with HDR mode.
> Can the firmware bug(the near black bug/posterization issue and banding in HDR mode) be solved completely with Lumagen Radiance Pro?
> Thank you for your help and support.


The Radiance Pro should be set to "Output HDR content in a SDR container" (typically CMS-Colorspace = SDR2020, with HDR Mapping enabled). Set up this way the Pro never outputs, and the Sony never sees, HDR. This "technically" eliminates the "HDR bug" you mention, but we have seen cases where a Sony projector can show contouring when a JVC in the same room getting the same signal did not. In this example a Sony VW995ES and a JVC RS4500. However, the Pro can help mitigate this issue in the Sony.

The Radiance Pro has an output "Dither" feature. Dither adds a small amount of noise to the lowest bit, or bits, of the Radiance Pro output. Google "dither" for more information.

Dithering can help the issue you are seeing on the Sony with HDR content (which may appear even when the Pro is sending "HDR in a SDR container"). A case in point is the Sony VW5000ES. Internally it is a DCI projector with an 8-bit Display Port interface (or so I am told). The external interface is HDMI and the input board converts HDMI to 8-bits and sends this to the internal Display Port interface. This is what I am told by several people, but I have no way to absolutely confirm this. Seeing some contouring on the Sony VW5000ES, I believe this is the case.

If the Pro sends 12-bit 4:2:2 to the Sony it looks like it is truncated to 8-bit. A better approach is to have the Pro dither to 8-bit output. I am not certain, but sending 8-bit RGB to a Sony VW5000ES may be the best option since DCI projectors are generally optimized for an RGB interface.

In any case, the LSB for each channel (either RGB, or YCbCr) would have the dither applied, and so will mitigate any "flat spots" created the projector "truncating" to 8-bits by ether incrementing the pixel values (at the effective 8-bit radix point), or leaving them alone, (somewhat) randomly. Then the human eye averages the color and intensity over a few pixels and sees a ramp rather than a flat spot "contour." Since even sitting only one screen-width away from a 4k screen the smallest detail a human eye can see (generally specified as one Arc-second) has the area of two pixels, the dither is easily averaged by the human eye and looks "smooth."

I am not sure what the input-to-screen effective bit-depth is for the Sony VW995ES. I suggest you find a very detailed scene of actual video content (I recommend finding one on the Spears and Munsil test disc), and then pause. Then try different amounts of dither using a 4:2:2 (which is 12-bit) output from the Pro. You may well find that the image looks better dithered to 8, 9, or 10 bits. It is also possible you will not be able to notice a difference between no dither (12-bits) and these settings. You need to do the experiment to know. I think others would be interested in your results.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Not sure what a Costar hard-drive is, but movies played from a paired system (either Premier or an Encore Alto/DV700) use the OSD of the Strato and then switch to a different HDMI output for movie playback (per defined in the Lumagen Pro). Can that other HDMI output also be configured the same? Most movies played from that output are 1080P24. Thanks for adding this feature! SJ


The info I had on this was not complete.

It turns out that content on the hard drive (only) of an Alto, paired as a Costar with a Strato, is played through the Strato and output from the Strato HDMI output. However, for other Costar models (such as the Cinema One we have) all content is output from the Costar's HDMI output port. This is directly from a Kaleidescape technical employee, and I think I am passing this on correctly.

I am going to set up our Cinema One as a Costar and test if the HDMI info frame "Graphics/Video content type" works with the Radiance Pro Costar implementation (where two input are used. One for the Strato and one for the Costar), or can be made to work.


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on using P3 output mode.

Major studios now use the ACES colorspace for content creation. This colorspace exceeds the Gamut of the human vision system. It is true that most content is within the P3 color Gamut, but there is some outside the P3 Gamut. At this point I believe this is mostly animation and CGI.

There can be very good reasons to select the Radiance Pro output as SDRP3. However, if you do you need to do a calibration to P3, and I recommend this be done using professional probes such as the CR-250, and the CR-100 from Colorimetry Research. I believe either Lightspace/Colorspace or Calman can do a good P3 calibration for a projector or TV that has a Gamut near or exceeding P3. Either of these can do a better calibration (from what I have learned) if the projector/TV Gamut is close to the target Gamut.

If the color Gamut of the TV/projector is slightly less than P3, you lose nothing calibrating to P3, and you may have a better calibration than if you set the Output Colorspace = SDR2020 and tried a Rec 2020 calibration. If you have a projector/TV with a Gamut far outside P3, then set Output Colorspace = SDR2020 and consider a 1D/3D LUT calibration. Note that if the projector is accurate out to its Gamut limits receiving Rec 2020, then you may decide a 3D LUT is not needed. I run the Lumagen Demo theater Radiance Pro Output Colorspace for both SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1) as SDR2020. Kris Deering did a calibration of the RS4500 and once the RS4500 was dialed in only a 1D LUT was needed since the dE's for the 3D profile were already excellent.

Do not use the output Colorspace = SDRP3 mode in the Radiance Pro unless you will be doing a 1D and a 3D LUT.

So the options are:

If the projector/TV only has a Rec 709 Gamut range set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert. Select this as well if the projector/TV accepts Rec 2020 but does not correctly display Rec 2020 colors accurately (fairly common I think).

If the projector has a Gamut beyond Rec 709, and can accurately display Rec 2020 set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert. Do a 1D LUT and check the 3D color profile (or do a full 2020 3D LUT if you have Lightspace).

If the projector has a Gamut of roughly P3 you can _consider_ setting CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDRP3, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert. Do a 1D LUT and a full P3 3D LUT (or at least do a 3D profile and if dE's look good you can skip the 3D LUT).

==== 

You will notice I am now recommending using the same colorspace for both SDR and HDR content. This has some benefits. It means only one calibration needed. The control system does not need to manually change the colorspace in the projector TV switching from SDR to HDR content (setup to a Rec 709, Rec 2020 or P3 mode as appropriate of course). In addition it eliminates the output restart needed to switch from Rec 709 to Rec 2020.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> A couple comments on using P3 output mode.
> 
> Major studios now use the ACES colorspace for content creation. This colorspace exceeds the Gamut of the human vision system. It is true that most content is within the P3 color Gamut, but there is some outside the P3 Gamut. At this point I believe this is mostly animation and CGI.
> 
> There can be very good reasons to select the Radiance Pro output as SDRP3. However, if you do you need to do a calibration to P3, and I recommend this be done using professional probes such as the CR-250, and the CR-100 from Colorimetry Research. I believe either Lightspace/Colorspace or Calman can do a good P3 calibration for a projector or TV that has a Gamut near or exceeding P3. Either of these can do a better calibration (from what I have learned) if the projector/TV Gamut is close to the target Gamut.
> 
> If the color Gamut of the TV/projector is slightly less than P3, you lose nothing calibrating to P3, and you may have a better calibration than if you set the Output Colorspace = SDR2020 and tried a Rec 2020 calibration. If you have a projector/TV with a Gamut far outside P3, then set Output Colorspace = SDR2020 and consider a 1D/3D LUT calibration. Note that if the projector is accurate out to its Gamut limits receiving Rec 2020, then you may decide a 3D LUT is not needed. I run the Lumagen Demo theater Radiance Pro Output Colorspace for both SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1) as SDR2020. Kris Deering did a calibration of the RS4500 and once the RS4500 was dialed in only a 1D LUT was needed since the dE's for the 3D profile were already excellent.
> 
> Do not use the output Colorspace = SDRP3 mode in the Radiance Pro unless you will be doing a 1D and a 3D LUT.
> 
> So the options are:
> 
> If the projector/TV only has a Rec 709 Gamut range set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert. Select this as well if the projector/TV accepts Rec 2020 but does not correctly display Rec 2020 colors accurately (fairly common I think).
> 
> If the projector has a Gamut beyond Rec 709, and can accurately display Rec 2020 set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR2020, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert. Do a 1D LUT and check the 3D color profile (or do a full 2020 3D LUT if you have Lightspace).
> 
> If the projector has a Gamut of roughly P3 you can _consider_ setting CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDRP3, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert. Do a 1D LUT and a full P3 3D LUT (or at least do a 3D profile and if dE's look good you can skip the 3D LUT).
> 
> ====
> 
> You will notice I am now recommending using the same colorspace for both SDR and HDR content. This has some benefits. It means only one calibration needed. The control system does not need to manually change the colorspace in the projector TV switching from SDR to HDR content (setup to a Rec 709, Rec 2020 or P3 mode as appropriate of course). In addition it eliminates the output restart needed to switch from Rec 709 to Rec 2020.


Thanks for the detailed explanation. I take it if my projector (Sony 995) has either 2020 or rec709 colourspace to choose from, and I know it can go beyond p3 - then I should pick the 2020 as the colourspace before calibration, right? And this means that only Lightspace/Colourspace can do a 3d lut for this colourspace, but Calman/Chromapure could be used for a 1d lut (or for profiling). 

And do I understand correctly that 1 singe picture mode can be used in the projector for both sdr and hdr (with the colourspace remaining 2020 for both) - does it mean that the other basic settings of the projector can stay the same before calibration such as contrast, black level etc for both hdr/sdr?

And final check - with this approach only 1 calibration session is needed and it's results will be copied from cms 0 to cms 1?


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I take it if my projector (Sony 995) has either 2020 or rec709 colourspace to choose from, and I know it can go beyond p3


Out of interest, which bit of the gamut goes beyond P3 - do you have a CIE diagram? All the data I've seen shows these units fail to cover P3 fully (though that doesn't mean that there isn't for instance a slither of blue that exceeds P3).

Sony are careful in their marketing and talk of them being a much more cryptic x% larger than REC709, as opposed to 100% of P3...  (source: http://www.sonypremiumhome.com/pdfs/Sony_4K_Projectors_White_Paper_v2.3.pdf)

On some of your other point; if you chose to use a higher laser level for HDR content (debateable value, depends on room perhaps) you might still want two separate calibrations as the colorimetry can vary with laser level. Same with lamp projectors, high lamp vs low lamp on JVC have quite a swing in colour temp.


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## danam

Hi, I don't know if it has already been discussed but I'd like to watch Netflix and Amazon Prime @24p.
I only have a PS4 and a Chromecast 4K UHD and they both send 60p streaming.
Can the Radiance Pro deal with 60P => 24P (IVTC ?) correctly ?

Should I use this menu :



Code:


Output Mode – Direct Commands
Note that these direct commands are meant as temporary overrides, not as permanent selections and affect only
the current input, input resolution and input memory. The Output Setup menu should be used to program the
output modes if the Auto output mode is not being used. The direct commands to select output resolution are:
480p60: MENU 0 2 1 OK 720p60: MENU 0 2 4 OK 1080p24: MENU 0 2 0 OK
1080p60: MENU 0 2 7 OK 4k24: MENU 0 2 3 OK 4k50: MENU 0 2 5 OK
4k60: MENU 0 2 9 OK

where "4k24: MENU 0 2 3 OK" is the one I want to do this ?

Thanks in advance for your help


----------



## bobof

danam said:


> Hi, I don't know if it has already been discussed but I'd like to watch Netflix and Amazon Prime @24p.
> I only have a PS4 and a Chromecast 4K UHD and they both send 60p streaming.
> Can the Radiance Pro deal with 60P => 24P (IVTC ?) correctly ?
> 
> Should I use this menu :
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Output Mode – Direct Commands
> Note that these direct commands are meant as temporary overrides, not as permanent selections and affect only
> the current input, input resolution and input memory. The Output Setup menu should be used to program the
> output modes if the Auto output mode is not being used. The direct commands to select output resolution are:
> 480p60: MENU 0 2 1 OK 720p60: MENU 0 2 4 OK 1080p24: MENU 0 2 0 OK
> 1080p60: MENU 0 2 7 OK 4k24: MENU 0 2 3 OK 4k50: MENU 0 2 5 OK
> 4k60: MENU 0 2 9 OK
> 
> where "4k24: MENU 0 2 3 OK" is the one I want to do this ?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help


No, it doesn't as far as I know have the ability to lock onto the film cadence and do the inverse telecine from 60p to 24p. So while it will output 24fps from the 60p output, they will often be the wrong 24 frames.

Better off doing 60p all the way through the Radiance and letting your display do the inverse telecine if it has such functionality.

Shield 2019 is probably the best box for native playback of those two services at correct framerates with HDR and Atmos.


----------



## danam

bobof said:


> No, it doesn't as far as I know have the ability to lock onto the film cadence and do the inverse telecine from 60p to 24p. So while it will output 24fps from the 60p output, they will often be the wrong 24 frames.
> 
> Better off doing 60p all the way through the Radiance and letting your display do the inverse telecine if it has such functionality.


Thx for your help @bobof !


----------



## bobof

danam said:


> Thx for your help @bobof !


No problem. I recall there are lots of nasty corner cases with detecting film cadences well (like what happens when an OSD is displayed or other overlay that breaks cadence).

I think at the moment the Shield 2019 is on balance the best streamer if you care about cadence and want Atmos audio as it is the only player able to do Atmos that also supports 23.976p and 24.0p correctly. It's not perfect by any means though.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I take it if my projector (Sony 995) has either 2020 or rec709 colourspace to choose from, and I know it can go beyond p3 - then I should pick the 2020 as the colourspace before calibration, right? And this means that only Lightspace/Colourspace can do a 3d lut for this colourspace, but Calman/Chromapure could be used for a 1d lut (or for profiling).
> 
> And do I understand correctly that 1 single picture mode can be used in the projector for both sdr and hdr (with the colourspace remaining 2020 for both) - does it mean that the other basic settings of the projector can stay the same before calibration such as contrast, black level etc for both hdr/sdr?
> 
> And final check - with this approach only 1 calibration session is needed and it's results will be copied from cms 0 to cms 1?


You should pick a 2020 (or P3) colorspace in the projector/TV before calibration _if_ it can correctly display the Rec 2020 (or P3) data. However, some projectors, which have a Rec 2020 mode, do not do it justice. So best to check by doing a color profile. If the projector accepts Rec 2020 but does not display the colors correctly, or only achieves a Rec 709 Gamut, then set the projector/TV for Rec 709 (and the Pro output to SDR709). Selecting P3 in the projector and Pro output Colorspace should be left to an experienced calibrator.

Any of the calibration software packages should be able to do a good job on the 1D LUT. Lightspace/colorspace should be able to do a good job for 709, P3, or 2020 3D LUT. Calman should be able to do a good job for 709 or P3 (assuming the projecotr Gamut reach to or near P3). I do not have enough feedback on Chromapure to comment on its 3D LUT capabilities.

The Black and White levels should be able to be left the same for SDR and HDR. There is an advantage in the "Output HDR in a SDR container" the Pro uses. Since the calibrations are done in SDR it is possible to set the White Level, where this is really not practical for HDR for a projector since it will reach maximum light at too low an input level.

The same projector settings can be used for both SDR and HDR as well.

With the methodology I recommended, using SDR2020 (or SDR709, or SDR P3) for both SDR and HDR you do one calibration in CMS0 and copy it to CMS1. Then make adjustments to each if needed. For example, you need to turn on HDR Mapping for CMS1 and set the Max Light level.


----------



## jrp

danam said:


> Hi, I don't know if it has already been discussed but I'd like to watch Netflix and Amazon Prime @24p.
> I only have a PS4 and a Chromecast 4K UHD and they both send 60p streaming.
> Can the Radiance Pro deal with 60P => 24P (IVTC ?) correctly ?


The Radiance Pro does not do 60p to 24p inverse telecine for film content. It is something we have discussed but unlikely any time soon, if ever. Best to select a source device that can properly show 24 Hertz content at 24 Hertz.

It makes little sense to me that source devices do not do a better job of this. I suspect the manufactures just do not want to deal with the complication, or support calls, for issues with the switch between 24 and 50 or 60 not working. This is one reason I really prefer playing a disc or content from our Kaleidescape Strato, since these devices can (if setup up properly) handle 24 Hertz content correctly.


----------



## danam

Thx Jim for your reply. I guess indeed they don't want to bother with refresh rates problems so they picked one , how sad.

Another question related to the PS4 Pro, when plugged to the Radiance Pro, I have a lot of drop outs of sound & picture (black screen) while playing games, it is very unstable and I can't pinpoint the reason as it is random.
I have 18 Gbps input card and 9 Gbps output card, I ordered a 18 Gbps output card (the new one) to update my Radiance Pro : do you think it will fix my drop out problem ?


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> You should pick a 2020 (or P3) colorspace in the projector/TV before calibration _if_ it can correctly display the Rec 2020 (or P3) data. However, some projectors, which have a Rec 2020 mode, do not do it justice. So best to check by doing a color profile. If the projector accepts Rec 2020 but does not display the colors correctly, or only achieves a Rec 709 Gamut, then set the projector/TV for Rec 709 (and the Pro output to SDR709). Selecting P3 in the projector and Pro output Colorspace should be left to an experienced calibrator.
> 
> Any of the calibration software packages should be able to do a good job on the 1D LUT. Lightspace/colorspace should be able to do a good job for 709, P3, or 2020 3D LUT. Calman should be able to do a good job for 709 or P3 (assuming the projecotr Gamut reach to or near P3). I do not have enough feedback on Chromapure to comment on its 3D LUT capabilities.
> 
> The Black and White levels should be able to be left the same for SDR and HDR. There is an advantage in the "Output HDR in a SDR container" the Pro uses. Since the calibrations are done in SDR it is possible to set the White Level, where this is really not practical for HDR for a projector since it will reach maximum light at too low an input level.
> 
> The same projector settings can be used for both SDR and HDR as well.
> 
> With the methodology I recommended, using SDR2020 (or SDR709, or SDR P3) for both SDR and HDR you do one calibration in CMS0 and copy it to CMS1. Then make adjustments to each if needed. For example, you need to turn on HDR Mapping for CMS1 and set the Max Light level.


Thank you @jrp!
A methodology question: P3 a subset of 2020, right? That is if my projector only allows picking between rec709 colorspace or 2020, and I intended to calibrate for P3 - is picking 2020 colorspace as the baseline in the projector for both sdr & hdr before calibration the correct approach? I know from reading (not yet measuring) that the projector is supposed to cover above P3, but - like all other devices - only reach part of 2020. And as virtually all content is graded to P3 today - all of this leads me to conclude that I should pick 2020 in the projector, but calibrate in the software to P3 targets. I mean, why would anyone calibrate using 2020 in the projector, with no projector today covering a big part of this gamut? I guess I am missing something fundamental here, as from all I read it sounds that all TVs and all projectors today (residential, not professional grading screens) only cover P3 or a little above it, and go above it only to a small part of rec2020). So how much of rec2020 would you want to see your projector support, before one decides to calibrate to this standard? And back to my original question: am I correct that setting the projector to rec2020 but calibrating to P3 standard makes sense, and can then be used for both SDR and HDR? I realize these are all questions professional calibrators would know in a heartbeat, but as I'm spending countless hours with both Colourspace and Calman (and CR-250 / CR-100 sensors) as a hobbyist the past several weeks, I really am trying to figure this out 

All this assuming I don't get this totally wrong, and by setting 2020 in the projector I do enable the colors to hit closer to P3 targets or outside them, whilst if I pick rec709 I can be sure the colors won't be able to reach that.


----------



## jrp

danam said:


> Thx Jim for your reply. I guess indeed they don't want to bother with refresh rates problems so they picked one , how sad.
> 
> Another question related to the PS4 Pro, when plugged to the Radiance Pro, I have a lot of drop outs of sound & picture (black screen) while playing games, it is very unstable and I can't pinpoint the reason as it is random.
> I have 18 Gbps input card and 9 Gbps output card, I ordered a 18 Gbps output card (the new one) to update my Radiance Pro : do you think it will fix my drop out problem ?


We have many clients (I believe) using the PS4 successfully with the Pro including gaming. So we should be able to find a solution.

Changing the output card to 18 GHz will not help (most likely anyway).

Most likely you need a better, and likely 3 meter long, cable from the source to the Radiance Pro. If other sources do not have this issue, then the is a good indicator it is the source to Pro connection and a better, and in this case longer, cable _may_ help. The longer cable provides more attenuation of the HDMI signal and can mitigate edge-rate, and HDMI output-chip and input-chip cable-EQ, issues. I recommend Tributaries UHDP passive cables for source to Pro, and the Pro output to the audio processor, connections.

Make sure to test on a different input card (each pair of inputs are on one card).

You can call Lumagen support at 503-574-2211 Option 2, from about 9 AM Pacific time in into the evening if you want to discuss.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Thank you @jrp!
> A methodology question: P3 a subset of 2020, right? That is if my projector only allows picking between rec709 colorspace or 2020, and I intended to calibrate for P3 - is picking 2020 colorspace as the baseline in the projector for both sdr & hdr before calibration the correct approach? I know from reading (not yet measuring) that the projector is supposed to cover above P3, but - like all other devices - only reach part of 2020. And as virtually all content is graded to P3 today - all of this leads me to conclude that I should pick 2020 in the projector, but calibrate in the software to P3 targets. I mean, why would anyone calibrate using 2020 in the projector, with no projector today covering a big part of this gamut? I guess I am missing something fundamental here, as from all I read it sounds that all TVs and all projectors today (residential, not professional grading screens) only cover P3 or a little above it, and go above it only to a small part of rec2020). So how much of rec2020 would you want to see your projector support, before one decides to calibrate to this standard? And back to my original question: am I correct that setting the projector to rec2020 but calibrating to P3 standard makes sense, and can then be used for both SDR and HDR? I realize these are all questions professional calibrators would know in a heartbeat, but as I'm spending countless hours with both Colourspace and Calman (and CR-250 / CR-100 sensors) as a hobbyist the past several weeks, I really am trying to figure this out
> 
> All this assuming I don't get this totally wrong, and by setting 2020 in the projector I do enable the colors to hit closer to P3 targets or outside them, whilst if I pick rec709 I can be sure the colors won't be able to reach that.


If you select Rec 2020 color mode in the projector you _must_ set the Pro output to Colorspace = SDR2020 and calibrate to 2020 targets.

I am going to ignore a possible case of setting the Pro output to SDRP3 with auto-convert on, with the projector set to 2020, and then targeting P3. You _might_ actually be able to get the calibration done, but it would be "pulling on the rubber bands of calibration too hard" and even if you measure low dE's afterwards you may well have contouring effects due the aforementioned "pulling on the rubber bands too hard." Do not try this one at home.

The "SDRP3" output mode is used mostly for DCI projectors which have a DCI/P3 color mode. I believe many JVC projectors have a P3 color mode, but am not sure about Sony projectors. _If_ your projector has a "P3" (or DCI) color mode, then you can consider setting the Pro output to SDRP3, and in this case (with auto-convert = Off), you can target P3 for your calibration. Make sure to enable auto-convert to watch content and the Pro will convert 709, or 2020, content data values to P3 data values with Colorspace=SDRP3 and auto-convert on. In practical terms, this is the only case you should target P3 in a calibration.


----------



## SJHT

danam said:


> Thx Jim for your reply. I guess indeed they don't want to bother with refresh rates problems so they picked one , how sad.
> 
> Another question related to the PS4 Pro, when plugged to the Radiance Pro, I have a lot of drop outs of sound & picture (black screen) while playing games, it is very unstable and I can't pinpoint the reason as it is random.
> I have 18 Gbps input card and 9 Gbps output card, I ordered a 18 Gbps output card (the new one) to update my Radiance Pro : do you think it will fix my drop out problem ?


I’m currently playing Ghost of Tsushima on my PS4 Pro and have not a single issue. What display are you using? I do use 18G outputs to my Sony 995 (as well as 18GB inputs). Use gaming mode on the Lumagen. Both the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X have never had any issues (well they did with my JVC600, but that is long gone)....


----------



## point1

Need help, about 4 months ago, I became a proud owner of Radiance Pro 4242. Very happy with the PQ and but initially I ran into issues that I think I can attribute to HDMI cables. In the end, the premium Bluejeans cable fixed my issues. Up until recently, things were working properly. Today, however, the video started flickering. I troubleshot the chain and I isolated the problem to be coming from the Lumagen. I bypassed the radiance pro and connected the projector directly to my receiver and the source. Flickering could not be replicated. 

Here is a sample video that I took. I want to throw this out to the community and solicit ideas for my next steps. I'm thinking of replacing all of my HDMI cables in the chain to see if that is the issue.






TIA


----------



## point1

I did upgrade the Lumagen to the latest firmware release and I'm still getting the flickering.


----------



## SJHT

point1 said:


> I did upgrade the Lumagen to the latest firmware release and I'm still getting the flickering.


You may want to try unplugging and replugging every HDMI cable from everything. Is this source specific? SJ


----------



## point1

SJHT said:


> You may want to try unplugging and replugging every HDMI cable from everything. Is this source specific? SJ



Great question! It is not source specific.

I have yet to try and unplug every source from the Lumagen, I will try that.

I suspect this is an HDMI cable issue. What is the consensus in this board for recommended HDMi cables?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## A7mad78

point1 said:


> Great question! It is not source specific.
> 
> I have yet to try and unplug every source from the Lumagen, I will try that.
> 
> I suspect this is an HDMI cable issue. What is the consensus in this board for recommended HDMi cables?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Try just to turn the pro off and on from the remote i got same issue from the apple tv source at most and when I do this problem resolve 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## point1

A7mad78 said:


> Try just to turn the pro off and on from the remote i got same issue from the apple tv source at most and when I do this problem resolve
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Oddly enough, after a couple of tries with hard resets, using the opponent 203 as the source does not produce flickering. Nvidia shield as source doesn’t flicker anymore but I don’t have full color. I tried multiple colors and even different inputs


----------



## jrp

point1 said:


> Need help, about 4 months ago, I became a proud owner of Radiance Pro 4242. Very happy with the PQ and but initially I ran into issues that I think I can attribute to HDMI cables. In the end, the premium Bluejeans cable fixed my issues. Up until recently, things were working properly. Today, however, the video started flickering. I troubleshot the chain and I isolated the problem to be coming from the Lumagen. I bypassed the radiance pro and connected the projector directly to my receiver and the source. Flickering could not be replicated...


You can try the trick I recommend if HDMI connections get flaky. For each end of every HDMI cable, unplug half-way, then plug back in, and repeat five times. Cables and connections age. Even having the plug slightly angled can make the difference between a good and a not so good connection. Doing this cleans the contacts, and it also can increase the contact area ever-so-slightly. Both good things for HDMI connection. It also helps you make sure every cable is correctly seated in the jack. I use mention this trick when people call and likely several times a month just doing this resolves their issues.

Make sure all HDMI cables are at least two meters long. The other thing I often do to help people fix issues is to convince them the the signal can be "too hot" using a one-meter cable. And then when they switch to a two meter cable it fixes the issues. In some cases you might even need to go to a 3 meter HDMI cable to get the right amount of attenuation in the cable.

If you do decide to upgrade HDMI cables, I recommend Tributaries HDMI cables: UHDP for 2 to 3 meter passive, and UHDV "Vega" fiber for longer connections. There are other good cables, but these are known good cables. Makes my life easier to know people have good cables when they call.

You can call support at 503-574-2211 Option 2 after about 9 AM Pacific time and into the evening if you want to go over some tests on the phone.

One other thing to try is remove wall power from all electronics so you can do a "Cold Boot." We have seen HDMI chips get in a funk and need a cold boot.


----------



## danam

I did try a 3m hdmi cable and still had black screen after a while. Tried a 10m cable and it did the trick ... could watch half of the second season of the Umbrella Academy without a glitch !
Now I have to try playing games  and to find a shorter cable that works because 10m is way too long between my PS4 and the Radiance 
Thx for the tip Jim ! (I remember Alex mentioning it but my 2m hdmi cables work well with my Oppo)
I'll keep you posted about playing games, I also have to play with the Game Mode !


----------



## Mike Garrett

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I take it if my projector (Sony 995) has either 2020 or rec709 colourspace to choose from, *and I know it can go beyond p3* - then I should pick the 2020 as the colourspace before calibration, right? And this means that only Lightspace/Colourspace can do a 3d lut for this colourspace, but Calman/Chromapure could be used for a 1d lut (or for profiling).
> 
> And do I understand correctly that 1 singe picture mode can be used in the projector for both sdr and hdr (with the colourspace remaining 2020 for both) - does it mean that the other basic settings of the projector can stay the same before calibration such as contrast, black level etc for both hdr/sdr?
> 
> And final check - with this approach only 1 calibration session is needed and it's results will be copied from cms 0 to cms 1?


None of the new Sony projectors even get to 100% of P3. Older ones with filters did. Think VW1000/1100 and 5000.

"Without a filter, the projector's measurements showed only 87 percent coverage of the P3 color gamut within REC.2020. This was a nitpick I had with the VW885ES, and for the VW995ES I was hoping that with Sony would implement the same filter used by its other premium projectors."
Sony VPL-VW995ES LCOS Projector Review Page 2


----------



## Mike Garrett

ShaharT said:


> Thank you @jrp!
> A methodology question: P3 a subset of 2020, right? That is if my projector only allows picking between rec709 colorspace or 2020, and I intended to calibrate for P3 - is picking 2020 colorspace as the baseline in the projector for both sdr & hdr before calibration the correct approach?* I know from reading (not yet measuring) that the projector is supposed to cover above P3*, but - like all other devices - only reach part of 2020. And as virtually all content is graded to P3 today - all of this leads me to conclude that I should pick 2020 in the projector, but calibrate in the software to P3 targets. I mean, why would anyone calibrate using 2020 in the projector, with no projector today covering a big part of this gamut? I guess I am missing something fundamental here, as from all I read it sounds that all TVs and all projectors today (residential, not professional grading screens) only cover P3 or a little above it, and go above it only to a small part of rec2020). So how much of rec2020 would you want to see your projector support, before one decides to calibrate to this standard? And back to my original question: am I correct that setting the projector to rec2020 but calibrating to P3 standard makes sense, and can then be used for both SDR and HDR? I realize these are all questions professional calibrators would know in a heartbeat, but as I'm spending countless hours with both Colourspace and Calman (and CR-250 / CR-100 sensors) as a hobbyist the past several weeks, I really am trying to figure this out
> 
> All this assuming I don't get this totally wrong, and by setting 2020 in the projector I do enable the colors to hit closer to P3 targets or outside them, whilst if I pick rec709 I can be sure the colors won't be able to reach that.


As I said earlier, none of the Sony projectors are able to even cover 100% of P3. They do about 90% of P3. I should say none of the new models, because they do not have color filters. The VW1000/1100 and 5000 do have filters and can reach full DCI P3 color space.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi Jim
New bug spotted 
When playing content [email protected] and if want to set the same output so the upscaling is done at projector level there is a handshake issue and screen goes black, I can hear the sound but projector doesn't have a handshake from Lumagen until I restart. 
I supply the screenshots with fw version and source and output settings.
















Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim
> New bug spotted
> When playing content [email protected] and if want to set the same output so the upscaling is done at projector level there is a handshake issue and screen goes black, I can hear the sound but projector doesn't have a handshake from Lumagen until I restart.
> I supply the screenshots with fw version and source and output settings.
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


The Sony projector only supports 25 fps at 4K resolution, not 1080p.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

fatherom said:


> The Sony projector only supports 25 fps at 4K resolution, not 1080p.


Thanks didn't realise it didn't support it.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim
> New bug spotted
> When playing content [email protected] and if want to set the same output so the upscaling is done at projector level there is a handshake issue and screen goes black, I can hear the sound but projector doesn't have a handshake from Lumagen until I restart.


Thanks for the bug report. Please email support at Lumagen (.com) and send the bug information.

[EDIT] Looks like not a real Radiance Pro bug. Thanks to fartherom for noting the Sony limitation on 25 Hertz input.

===

General note: Please always email your bug reports Lumagen support as that is our official channel to work on bugs. You are of course welcome post and and discuss the bug with others here, but if you would like us to work on a bug, please email our support.


----------



## feelthesound

Hello,

Any new of the 12bit 3Dlut ?

Any chance to see coming this year some new hdmi cards in put and out put 2.1?

i will buy a NVIDIA ampere 3080 in September, and certainly upgrade my Sony vw5000es in Q4 2020... I really want a full system 12bits 4kdci.

I know Madvr Envy will be hdmi 2.1 in Q4 2020, I hope to do not have to change my lumagen for an Envy...


----------



## hi_speed

Any news about "OLD" enhancement filters ?

In my old Radiance I used to change Horizontal, Vertical and Diagonal sharpness as well as texture values and I really enjoyed the results.

Now on the PRO (a 4242 unit with last firmware 060120), the"old image enhancements settings" are present in the menu but not accessible to end users AFAIK.

I can see them also mentioned in the old PRO manuals (PG 18 in the document linked below)



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_with_cover_040116.pdf



but then they disappeared, along with Inter Frame Motion Detection (IFMD) and Noise reduction feature (can't find both in last PRO manual and menu)



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_071819.pdf



It looks like only Darbee survived (which BTW, I don't really like because makes the image "artificial" like Sony RC, even at its lowest and less aggressive settings).

It's really frustrating missing features upgrading the hardware, especially considering the PRO lineup potential. Is it possible to enable the old set of image enhancement filters?

I can understand (and appreciate) Lumagen putting a lot of effort to realize the "best in class" HDR tonemapping feaure but I really don't understand why old features we used and we loved (at least me) can't be enabled on the latest and greatest Radiances...

If all those features are present in PRO Radiances and only need to be enabled, I apologize for this post,but please tell me how to do it.


----------



## EVH78

hi_speed said:


> Any news about "OLD" enhancement filters ?
> 
> In my old Radiance I used to change Horizontal, Vertical and Diagonal sharpness as well as texture values and I really enjoyed the results.
> 
> Now on the PRO (a 4242 unit with last firmware 060120), the"old image enhancements settings" are present in the menu but not accessible to end users AFAIK.
> 
> I can see them also mentioned in the old PRO manuals (PG 18 in the document linked below)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_with_cover_040116.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> but then they disappeared, along with Inter Frame Motion Detection (IFMD) and Noise reduction feature (can't find both in last PRO manual and menu)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_071819.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like only Darbee survived (which BTW, I don't really like because makes the image "artificial" like Sony RC, even at its lowest and less aggressive settings).
> 
> It's really frustrating missing features upgrading the hardware, especially considering the PRO lineup potential. Is it possible to enable the old set of image enhancement filters?
> 
> I can understand (and appreciate) Lumagen putting a lot of effort to realize the "best in class" HDR tonemapping feaure but I really don't understand why old features we used and we loved (at least me) can't be enabled on the latest and greatest Radiances...
> 
> If all those features are present in PRO Radiances and must only be enabled, I apologize for this post,but please tell me how to do it.


Some of these features are in the pipeline. I don´ t know when they will be released. The Pro is still in "beta"- I believe (since 5 years  )


----------



## hi_speed

Well, I really hope beta ends soon....

Maybe Jim can tell us more about "back to the future" features 😅 missing.

I just bought the pro and don't have plans to switch to the Envy because the Radiance perfectly fits my needs...

Despite having 4K processors and VPR / TVs, most of the sources (like SAT broadcast etc) have HD resolution with high compression.... we need the Radiance to improve those low quality contents and fine tune the images....


----------



## Gordon Fraser

The Pro is not in beta. Those features were on a chipset that is not used in Pro range and i'd imagine the original manual mentioend them as it will have been an edited version of the previous ranges manual as the architecture of the menu tree etc is the same.. Those features were not created by Lumagen, just like Darbee is not by lumagen. Lumagen have said that they do intend to add some enhancement features but they do things by priority. Hardly anyone else is asking for noise reduction or edge enhancements....or if they are they are not letting lumagen know direct. So if there are things you really really want don't just post here, email lumagen support and tell them would be my advice. They do listen.


----------



## EVH78

Gordon Fraser said:


> The Pro is not in beta.


Thank you Gordon. But since when? I heard no official talk on this. The last update still suggests to email feedback to [email protected]!


----------



## hi_speed

Gordon Fraser said:


> Hardly anyone else is asking for noise reduction or edge enhancements...


Belive me... a LOT of people is waiting, not just me.

HDR and 4K it's priority N.1 ? sure.

NR and EE (above all) are useless ? I don't think so, and since the Pro it's not a cheap product, I'm expecting to get old + new functions, not only the new one.

If NR and EE are useless, Lumagen should remove these functionalities also from 21xx, 20xx, Mini, XS, XE, XD.

I think Jim knows better than me that Radiance EE is better than Darbee but probably the "porting" on the PRO FPGA is not so simple...

I know many Radiance owners, an literally no one uses Darbee, even people who previously had the old "dedicated" darbee as external HW to add sharpness and details to the image.

Darbee it's also trashed in some reviews of the PRO, like this one









Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 review


This upmarket 4K scaler/processor is a fine fit for high-end cinema setups Around twenty years ago an essential component of any high-end home cinema was a scaler, with companies such as Faroudja and Snell & Wilcox striving to deliver the very best picture from the humble old DVD.




www.homecinemachoice.com





"_Also offered by this black box of tricks is Darbee processing. This can be set to off, and in my opinion that is where it's best left._ "

I completely agree with him

Don't get me wrong: I think the PRO it's a great machine (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it) and new functions are always welcome, but I think taking away "OLD" functionalities it's not a good idea.


----------



## EVH78

hi_speed said:


> Belive me... a LOT of people is waiting, not just me.
> 
> HDR and 4K it's priority N.1 ? sure.
> 
> NR and EE (above all) are useless ? I don't think so, and since the Pro it's not a cheap product, I'm expecting to get old + new functions, not only the new one.
> 
> If NR and EE are useless, Lumagen should remove these functionalities also from 21xx, 20xx, Mini, XS, XE, XD.
> 
> I think Jim knows better than me that Radiance EE is better than Darbee but probably the "porting" on the PRO FPGA is not so simple...
> 
> I know many Radiance owners, an literally no one uses Darbee, even people who previously had the old "dedicated" darbee as external HW to add sharpness and details to the image.
> 
> Darbee it's also trashed in some reviews of the PRO, like this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 review
> 
> 
> This upmarket 4K scaler/processor is a fine fit for high-end cinema setups Around twenty years ago an essential component of any high-end home cinema was a scaler, with companies such as Faroudja and Snell & Wilcox striving to deliver the very best picture from the humble old DVD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.homecinemachoice.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "_Also offered by this black box of tricks is Darbee processing. This can be set to off, and in my opinion that is where it's best left._ "
> 
> I completely agree with him
> 
> Don't get me wrong: I think the PRO it's a great machine (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it) and new functions are always welcome, but I think taking away "OLD" functionalities it's not a good idea.


I agree: I would also love NR and EE features. I have given up asking Jim for new features since it does seem to have ZERO impact on his decisions. Wether it is geometry correction, PIP or NR.

Then I also disagree on Darbee: It works just fantastic for 3D movies. The textures look better by adding contrast and the 3D immersion is increased.


----------



## ShaharT

Mike Garrett said:


> As I said earlier, none of the Sony projectors are able to even cover 100% of P3. They do about 90% of P3. I should say none of the new models, because they do not have color filters. The VW1000/1100 and 5000 do have filters and can reach full DCI P3 color space.


Thank you! I finally measured myself and right you are. The projector only gets to 92.3% coverage of P3. 
I believe this means I should aim for a P3 LUT?


----------



## jqmn

Or, you could leave the projector and the Lumagen at SDR/2020 and constrain your profile/characterization to the P3 "space/subspace" within 2020 and correct that more limited space with a 3DLUT. Which ever way works out best for your setup upon comparing and verifying your 3DLUT(s).


ShaharT said:


> Thank you! I finally measured myself and right you are. The projector only gets to 92.3% coverage of P3.
> I believe this means I should aim for a P3 LUT?


----------



## Vinturbo

Gordon Fraser said:


> Hardly anyone else is asking for noise reduction or edge enhancements....


Here in my city we are at least 5 people waiting for those filters, that I know ....
At least 4 other people wait to buy the PRO until they see them working. Even 2 people I know use the 2K radiance in video chain together with the PRO in order not to give up filters. In the past years some presumed dates have been announced and then regularly disregarded. The effort for the DTM was great, but the sharpness and noise reduction filters are very important.
the DARBEE works only in 2K material. I hope that when programmed the filters will also work with 4K material!


----------



## hi_speed

Vinturbo said:


> the sharpness and noise reduction filters are very important


Exactly. 

Especially in Italy, were SKY broadcasts HD channels with ridiculous bitrates. 

I got the PRO but I coul’t sell my old Radiance because I need it for EE and NR.

There‘s a lot of people ”addicted” to Radiance NR & EE, that’s a fact.


----------



## Vinturbo

are you Italian too?


----------



## hi_speed

yes I am


----------



## Vinturbo

I hope the problem is not lack of FPGA space. I guess not. In case I would gladly give up the DARBEE. Sharpness and noise ruduction filters have to work with 4K material to be good.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

We've been distributing and selling Lumagen processors in Italy since the _Vision_ model of the early 2000's. Well, _never as today_ users snub the RADIANCE PRO because of *the lack of* *sharpness *(1st) and *noise reducer *(2nd) *filters*. That gives strenght to HTPC users who have filters as their best weapon.

I'm sorry to publicly point this out but after 5 years of rescheduling the lack of filters in the RADIANCE PRO has got paradoxical.

Thanks for the attention,
Gianluca


----------



## hamster71

Completely agree with your comments.

Here in Switzerland I know several people who have not bought the Lumagen Pro because it does not have any image enhancement filters.

I have owned the Lumagen for four years and have been waiting for these filters ...

I have contacted Lumagen several times about this, I am told each time this is planned but their implementations are constantly being pushed back.

I think a lot of people are waiting for these image enhancement filters but only a small part request them from Lumagen unfortunately.

Moreover, Lumagen's priority market is clearly the USA, and it would appear that these image enhancement filters do not really appeal to them, so therefore it is clearly not a priority for Lumagen.

Or it is just not possible to integrate these filters for various reasons and then Lumagen better say it, at least like that we would be fixed instead of let us hope ...


----------



## jrp

I am a little surprised by all the posts. It appears people have missed my previous posts on this topic.

Again, I will say that when I ask people if we should work on DTM or on edge enhancements or PiP/PoP, as I have done on numerous occasions, virtually all say DTM. There are a very few exceptions in Europe (and perhaps in the USA that I do not know about). 

We are a small company and must focus on what the majority of our customers want. In this case it was no contest. This has unfortunately meant we have not been able to add edge enhancements sooner. If two years ago people had said they wanted edge enhancements, that is what we would have worked on. When we introduced the Radiance Pro, HDR did not even exist. So we did not have visibility of the need for all the Tone Mapping work that would be needed. While we too are disappointed features we planned have been delayed, I believe there are few that would say we made a bad choice to work on HDR and DTM and put off the other features.

Based on the preponderance of feedback, our priority for some time has been (in priority order, although PiP and edge enhancements are both about tied for last place):

DTM
Pipeline improvements
Edge enhancements
PiP/PoP

We now have DTM well in hand and should have another improvement release in the next few days. Once this DTM release is out we plan to work on pipeline improvements. These will be to increase the bit-depth to 12 and more bits for the entire pipeline (at this point the front end scaling is 10-bits, and the calibration pipeline is 12-bits and higher). Part of this work will be to prepare the pipeline to be able to add edge enhancement. Once we have the pipeline improvements in next on the list is edge enhancements.

======== 

I have to say I have very mixed feeling about edge enhancements. They by their nature are "creating an artifact." In this case making edges look sharper than they would normally be. And this in general comes with undesired ringing artifacts. If you have a really bad source, you can try to recover some of the lost edges, but for a high quality 4k HDR source, I think edge "enhancement" only makes the image worse. What we hear about enhancement from other products is that they make the image look "over processed" and "artificial." I agree with this assessment. I have been looking at enhancement algorithms for a while now and am working to help insure they truly are enhancements and not creating an artificial looking image.

I do not have a schedule for edge enhancements, but since the Pro DTM is being judged as by far the best, I am comfortable that we can begin the pipeline improvement and the edge enhancement work.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

If the sharpness settings are finely tunable and delicately acting as they were in the previous Radiance "1080" generation they will only improve any picture.

Moreover you are referring to "edge enhancement" that's just a part of the sharpness process, will we ever have a complete 4K sharpness regulation in the Radiance PRO?


----------



## jrp

Gianluca Vignini said:


> If the sharpness settings are finely tunable and delicately acting as they were in the previous Radiance "1080" generation they will only improve any picture.
> 
> Moreover you are referring to "edge enhancement" that's just a part of the sharpness process, will we ever have a complete 4K sharpness regulation in the Radiance PRO?


I agree that the earlier Radiance edge enhancement, when used with a low setting, gave some improvement without undue artifacts. However, they like other enhancement technology created artifacts one could see when set too high. For the original Radiance series products, I found a setting of 3 reasonable, but a setting of 7 created visible artifacts.

Not sure I understand your question. If you mean will the sharpness work with full 4k60, the answer is yes. If this is not it, then I do not understand what you mean by "sharpness regulation" so please explain further.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

jrp said:


> I agree that the earlier Radiance edge enhancement, when used with a low setting, gave some improvement without undue artifacts. However, they like other enhancement technology created artifacts one could see when set too high. For the original Radiance series products, I found a setting of 3 reasonable, but a setting of 7 created visible artifacts.
> 
> Not sure I understand your question. If you mean will the sharpness work with full 4k60, the answer is yes. If this is not it, then I do not understand what you mean by "sharpness regulation" so please explain further.


I mean TEXTURE enhancement plus EDGE enhancement.

Thanks


----------



## Vinturbo

I remember that the adjustable values were 6. 3 for the edges and 3 for the texture. The effect on the texture was incredibly beautiful.


----------



## jrp

Gianluca Vignini said:


> I mean TEXTURE enhancement plus EDGE enhancement.
> 
> Thanks


I never thought the earlier Radiance model's "Texture" enhancement did much to improve the image and have not really spent time on such a filter. This amounted to a "peaking filter" that tries to accentuate the higher frequencies. We plan on the edge enhancement feature, but at this point we are not planning such a "texture" filter. It would be something we might consider after we have the planned features completed.

Note that the edge-enhancement can help with the "texture detail." It is just not a separate filter.


----------



## Karl Maga

feelthesound said:


> I know Madvr Envy will be hdmi 2.1 in Q4 2020, I hope to do not have to change my lumagen for an Envy...


Good luck with that Richard.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

EVH78 said:


> Thank you Gordon. But since when? I heard no official talk on this. The last update still suggests to email feedback to [email protected]!


If you look at the Pro firmware page you will see that it went out of beta in february 2018


----------



## riddle

Hi, i found very interesting Test: Highend-Videoprozessor Lumagen Radiance Pro – HDR-Tuning für Projektoren - LowBeats review


----------



## hi_speed

Vinturbo said:


> I remember that the adjustable values were 6. 3 for the edges and 3 for the texture. The effect on the texture was incredibly beautiful.


You are right.

horizontal sharpness
vertical sharpness
diagonal sharpness

horizontal texture
vertical texture
diagonal texture

I really liked pushing texture enhancements along with sharpness, I’m really sad Jim doesn’t think it’s an useful feature and won’t be included in PRO models.

The results were (are) natural and not artificial AT ALL If correctly configured.

As I said, those filters were BY FAR better than Reality Creation on Sony products and since Sony has one of the best image processing in the market, I really don’t understand how can Lumagen throw away their technologies.

I agree DTM was the most important feature to get ASAP, now Lumagen has to work on the pipeline, ok...

After that, I‘m expecting Lumagen to work on EE / NR otherwise many people who wants filters will be switching to the envy that brings together MADVR features in a box with HDMI IN (plus HDMI 2.1...).

That’s a pity because Lumagen had some of the best image processing features already implemented in older models and the just decided to trash them...


----------



## Mark_H

hi_speed said:


> I know many Radiance owners, an literally no one uses Darbee, even people who previously had the old "dedicated" darbee as external HW to add sharpness and details to the image.


Just because you don't know anybody using the Darbee processing, doesn't mean nobody is... (clue: I am)


----------



## blake

Vinturbo said:


> I hope the problem is not lack of FPGA space. I guess not. In case I would gladly give up the DARBEE. Sharpness and noise ruduction filters have to work with 4K material to be good.


Is there any way to determine how much FPGA space Is currently being utilized on the Pro ? This becomes important as competition in this space is arriving shortly, introducing additional VP algorithms beyond the core DTM.


----------



## hi_speed

Mark_H said:


> Just because you don't know anybody using the Darbee processing, doesn't mean nobody is... (clue: I am)


Ok 

I was just reporting my experience...

As I said: every additional feature is welcome, but taking away most Lumagen proprietary image processing (texture, sharpness, NR) and proposing Darbee as a "replacement" it's not a good move at all. That's my point of view, and I know a lot of people who think the same...

Obviously there are some Lumagen Radiance owners that just like Darbee, if you are one of them good for you


----------



## blake

hi_speed said:


> You are right.
> 
> horizontal sharpness
> vertical sharpness
> diagonal sharpness
> 
> horizontal texture
> vertical texture
> diagonal texture
> 
> I really liked pushing texture enhancements along with sharpness, I’m really sad Jim doesn’t think it’s an useful feature and won’t be included in PRO models.
> 
> The results were (are) natural and not artificial AT ALL If correctly configured.
> 
> As I said, those filters were BY FAR better than Reality Creation on Sony products and since Sony has one of the best image processing in the market, I really don’t understand how can Lumagen throw away their technologies.
> 
> I agree DTM was the most important feature to get ASAP, now Lumagen has to work on the pipeline, ok...
> 
> After that, I‘m expecting Lumagen to work on EE / NR otherwise many people who wants filters will be switching to the envy that brings together MADVR features in a box with HDMI IN (plus HDMI 2.1...).
> 
> That’s a pity because Lumagen had some of the best image processing features already implemented in older models and the just decided to trash them...


Just curious about this edge enhancement. It was referenced to help improve direct broadcast content quality in Europe. Why wouldn’t it also improve 1080p direct broadcast (cable/IPTV) in North America ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> I am a little surprised by all the posts. It appears people have missed my previous posts on this topic.
> 
> Again, I will say that when I ask people if we should work on DTM or on edge enhancements or PiP/PoP, as I have done on numerous occasions, virtually all say DTM. There are a very few exceptions in Europe (and perhaps in the USA that I do not know about).
> 
> We are a small company and must focus on what the majority of our customers want. In this case it was no contest. This has unfortunately meant we have not been able to add edge enhancements sooner. If two years ago people had said they wanted edge enhancements, that is what we would have worked on. When we introduced the Radiance Pro, HDR did not even exist. So we did not have visibility of the need for all the Tone Mapping work that would be needed. While we too are disappointed features we planned have been delayed, I believe there are few that would say we made a bad choice to work on HDR and DTM and put off the other features.
> 
> Based on the preponderance of feedback, our priority for some time has been (in priority order, although PiP and edge enhancements are both about tied for last place):
> 
> DTM
> Pipeline improvements
> Edge enhancements
> PiP/PoP
> 
> We now have DTM well in hand and should have another improvement release in the next few days. Once this DTM release is out we plan to work on pipeline improvements. These will be to increase the bit-depth to 12 and more bits for the entire pipeline (at this point the front end scaling is 10-bits, and the calibration pipeline is 12-bits and higher). Part of this work will be to prepare the pipeline to be able to add edge enhancement. Once we have the pipeline improvements in next on the list is edge enhancements.
> 
> ========
> 
> I have to say I have very mixed feeling about edge enhancements. They by their nature are "creating an artifact." In this case making edges look sharper than they would normally be. And this in general comes with undesired ringing artifacts. If you have a really bad source, you can try to recover some of the lost edges, but for a high quality 4k HDR source, I think edge "enhancement" only makes the image worse. What we hear about enhancement from other products is that they make the image look "over processed" and "artificial." I agree with this assessment. I have been looking at enhancement algorithms for a while now and am working to help insure they truly are enhancements and not creating an artificial looking image.
> 
> I do not have a schedule for edge enhancements, but since the Pro DTM is being judged as by far the best, I am comfortable that we can begin the pipeline improvement and the edge enhancement work.


To make sure you don't get 'silence' bias - I for one am a happy customer who is very happy with your described priority (of edge enchantments last).


----------



## bobof

hi_speed said:


> I really don’t understand how can Lumagen throw away their technologies.


These features you mention weren't really Lumagen technologies in the first place. There was a separate (ageing) IC from Gennum included in the unit. I think some other VP units and even high-end AVR at the time also included them.

Given the parts weren't available in 4K capable variants (I think they might have even been going obsolete) they probably wouldn't have made a ton of sense to include in the new product. So far I think the only feature to be implemented in the FPGA that was originally handled by the VXP is the interlace processing.

Personally I'm not fussed by the absence of these controls, but then again I don't tend to watch OTA TV in my cinema room.


----------



## hi_speed

bobof said:


> These features you mention weren't really Lumagen technologies in the first place. There was a separate (ageing) IC from Gennum included in the unit.


Ok, understood. OLD but GOLD !



bobof said:


> Given the parts weren't available in 4K capable variants (I think they might have even been going obsolete) they probably wouldn't have made a ton of sense to include in the new product.


From my point of view, EDGE / TEXTURE ENHANCEMENT is a key feature to improve SD/HD content more than UHD... 

Taking apart UHD BD / VOD, the vast majority of content (at least here in Italy) is distributed in 1080i so for projector owners a video processor with enhancement features is a KEY component to own in order to make HD OTA TV decent, at least. Now those features are gone with the PRO.



bobof said:


> Personally I'm not fussed by the absence of these controls, but then again I don't tend to watch OTA TV in my cinema room.


I understand your point and why you don't miss those features... they make the difference with OTA TV (above all) and with "low quality" and "low bitrate" contents.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

EVH78 said:


> Thank you Gordon. But since when? I heard no official talk on this. The last update still suggests to email feedback to [email protected]!


I believe what Gordon is relating to if you visit - Lumagen you'll find that the previous firmware udpates were called with "beta" prefix. And the very latest with this prefix firmware update was "*Beta 121217*", but we all know that the ongoing development process is still going on.


----------



## *Harry*

blake said:


> Is there any way to determine how much FPGA space Is currently being utilized on the Pro ?


Good question, would like to know that too
Jim - can you tell us, how many % of FPGA space is in use until now?


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

A super-fine Sharpness control forms the basis of any videoprocessor and especially of a $ 8495 videoprocessor like the Radiance PRO. It's pointless to argue the opposite.

A super-fine Sharpness control can improve ANY input signal from 480i to 2160p simply because "4K" doesn't necessarily mean "sharp". I see 4K contents lacking the sharpness of excellent 1080 material and I want to act on the videoprocessor's Sharpness control.

A super-fine Sharpness control can compensate image definition shortcomings of displays and videoprojectors (like the many non-native 4K e-Shift models) *switching off (adjust to Zero most of times) *the on-board Sharpness controls of the display / videoprojector that are traditionally *rough*.

So, in spite of everything they may have told you about the Sharpness controls / filters on a 4K videoprocessor, that is one of the *MAIN and ESSENTIAL* features we must all demand and obtain as soon as possible.


----------



## danam

Like Jim explained they worked hard on Dtm to deliver one of the best (I'm not qualified nor have enough experience to say the best) Dtm available on the market. 

They have to prioritize and next step is 12 bits pipeline then ee.

Plus they are active on forums. 

I guess we now have to be patient for things announced being delivered. 

I find the "as soon as possible" a little aggressive/ unfair regarding the resources and energy spent on dtm at no cost for us owners of Radiance Pro ;-)

I understand the Radiance Pro was built to last. They can't afford coming out with a new hardware every year so I'm confident they will deliver


----------



## *Harry*

Regarding discussions about Lumagens features priorization I think, Jim and his team did the right decission. But let's hope, that the next milestone "Pipeline improvements" will not take "years" again, till it comes to everyone's satisfaction 😁

I've also been waiting for the sharpness function for a long time ... even if my Pana UB9003 makes a great job there, I'd be happy if the pro can do that a little better for 1080p.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

danam said:


> I find the "as soon as possible" a little aggressive/ unfair regarding the resources and energy spent on dtm at no cost for us owners of Radiance Pro ;-)
> 
> I understand the Radiance Pro was built to last. They can't afford coming out with a new hardware every year so I'm confident they will deliver


Instead, I find the "as soon as possible" perfectly in keeping with the Radiance PRO's launch date of 2015. 5 years are _light-years _in the world of technology.

However I'm a Lumagen fan like all of you in this room and I don't intend to switch to HTPC or "expensive equivalents" : I just want my videoprocessor to be as it should be.


----------



## feelthesound

Optional hdmi 2.1 are really a need for people who will do gaming at minimum 60hz with pchc 3080 nvidia card, ps5 and Xbox X.


----------



## hi_speed

Gianluca Vignini said:


> A super-fine Sharpness control can compensate image definition shortcomings of displays and videoprojectors (like the many non-native 4K e-Shift models) *switching off (adjust to Zero most of times) *the on-board Sharpness controls of the display / videoprojector that are traditionally *rough*.


Exactly!

A lot of people buy video processors to squeeze out everything they can from their projectors, disabling or limiting the "on board" processing which usually destroy the image naturalness.

The old EDGE and TEXTURE Enhancement features, along with NR filtering produced a more incisive, but at the same time, natural image without ringing or artifacts (if correctly configured).

I don't mind if the algorithms were not Lumagen proprietary (as bobof said), they were great and I was expecting them to be included in PRO releases after 5 years.

Assuming that Radiance PROs are only used in high end installations with reference UHD material is not realistic.


----------



## hi_speed

danam said:


> I find the "as soon as possible" a little aggressive/ unfair regarding the resources and energy spent on dtm at no cost for us owners of Radiance Pro ;-)


No cost? I don't think so. Did you get the pro for free ? I din't for sure.

The PRO has been built to last and support new features without (or with limited) HW changes, thanks to modular design / FPGA. This approach lead to higher costs for Lumagen and customers....

*The higher cost is not a problem when you get all the basic features plus the new one specific for the PRO models*. It's not the case with the PRO if after 5 years we are still debating about the inclusion on EE / TEXTURE filters and and discussing about others shortcomings.

Don't get me wrong:* I love Radiance PRO and Lumagen and I really appreciate Jim efforts to give the best in class features*.

I also appreciate Jim effort to speak and listen to his customers, and I'm here to say: *give your customers what they want*.

If Lumagen thinks no one cares about filters then they should make a poll to let their customer say what they really want in first place.

Propose a Roadmap (specifying the estimated time to develop each feature), and let your customers show the way to make them happy.

If no one cares about EE / TEXTURE / NR, then Lumagen doesn't have to worry about the competition... even if the PRO is actually missing "fine tuning" enhancements options.

I don't think they should delay again image enhancement features development, but that's just my 2 cents.


----------



## danam

As far as I know (but I can be wrong), DTM wasn't announced as a Radiance Pro feature when it was launched, was it ?
We got DTM "for free", that's what I meant by "at no cost" ...
It looks like there is all of a sudden tons of people in need of EE / NR/ ... where were you in the past few months ?
I don't understand. Besides AVS, did you guys contact Lumagen to ask for a roadmap for unreleased features ? (which is btw a great idea !)
@jrp ? Do you think you could share some roadmap for next schedules features (ie 12bit pipeling, EE/NR/...) ?


----------



## jtjjen

hi_speed said:


> No cost? I don't think so. Did you get the pro for free ? I din't for sure.
> 
> The PRO has been built to last and support new features without (or with limited) HW changes, thanks to modular design / FPGA. This approach lead to higher costs for Lumagen and customers....
> 
> *The higher cost is not a problem when you get all the basic features plus the new one specific for the PRO models*. It's not the case with the PRO if after 5 years we still have shortcomings and we are still debating about the inclusion on EE / TEXTURE filters.
> 
> Don't get me wrong:* I love Radiance PRO and Lumagen and I really appreciate Jim efforts to give the best in class features*.
> 
> I also appreciate Jim effort to speak and listen to his customers, and I'm here to say: *give your customers what they want*.
> 
> If Lumagen thinks no one cares about filters then they should make a poll to let their customer say what they really want in first place.
> 
> Propose a Roadmap (specifying the estimated time to develop each feature), and let your customers show the way to make them happy.
> 
> If no one cares about EE / TEXTURE / NR, then Lumagen doesn't have to worry about the competition... even if the PRO is actually missing "fine tuning" enhancements options.
> 
> I don't think they should delay again image enhancement features development.





hi_speed said:


> Assuming that Radiance PROs are only used in high end installations with reference UHD material is not realistic.


These may not be the only uses but it sure seems like this is Lumagen’s target market! I, for one, don’t want them prioritizing EE/Texture/NR as wouldn’t use it. If it can be done and not slip other things that‘s fine but it doesn’t appear that is the case.

John


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

danam said:


> I don't understand. Besides AVS, did you guys contact Lumagen to ask for a roadmap for unreleased features ? (which is btw a great idea !)
> @jrp ? Do you think you could share some roadmap for next schedules features (ie 12bit pipeling, EE/NR/...) ?


A number of users has been directly asking Jim Peterson for filters since 2015. Is that enough?


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> I am a little surprised by all the posts. It appears people have missed my previous posts on this topic.
> 
> Again, I will say that when I ask people if we should work on DTM or on edge enhancements or PiP/PoP, as I have done on numerous occasions, virtually all say DTM. There are a very few exceptions in Europe (and perhaps in the USA that I do not know about).
> 
> We are a small company and must focus on what the majority of our customers want. In this case it was no contest. This has unfortunately meant we have not been able to add edge enhancements sooner. If two years ago people had said they wanted edge enhancements, that is what we would have worked on. When we introduced the Radiance Pro, HDR did not even exist. So we did not have visibility of the need for all the Tone Mapping work that would be needed. While we too are disappointed features we planned have been delayed, I believe there are few that would say we made a bad choice to work on HDR and DTM and put off the other features.
> 
> Based on the preponderance of feedback, our priority for some time has been (in priority order, although PiP and edge enhancements are both about tied for last place):
> 
> DTM
> Pipeline improvements
> Edge enhancements
> PiP/PoP
> 
> We now have DTM well in hand and should have another improvement release in the next few days. Once this DTM release is out we plan to work on pipeline improvements. These will be to increase the bit-depth to 12 and more bits for the entire pipeline (at this point the front end scaling is 10-bits, and the calibration pipeline is 12-bits and higher). Part of this work will be to prepare the pipeline to be able to add edge enhancement. Once we have the pipeline improvements in next on the list is edge enhancements.
> 
> ========
> 
> I have to say I have very mixed feeling about edge enhancements. They by their nature are "creating an artifact." In this case making edges look sharper than they would normally be. And this in general comes with undesired ringing artifacts. If you have a really bad source, you can try to recover some of the lost edges, but for a high quality 4k HDR source, I think edge "enhancement" only makes the image worse. What we hear about enhancement from other products is that they make the image look "over processed" and "artificial." I agree with this assessment. I have been looking at enhancement algorithms for a while now and am working to help insure they truly are enhancements and not creating an artificial looking image.
> 
> I do not have a schedule for edge enhancements, but since the Pro DTM is being judged as by far the best, I am comfortable that we can begin the pipeline improvement and the edge enhancement work.


Jim Peterson
Lumagen, Inc. 

I like the way you answer and the way you keep things in prospective to what's really the most important to the majority of users DTM as an example.

I don't have "Any" Video-Processor ............. yet.

Terry
USA


----------



## Karl Maga

blake said:


> Is there any way to determine how much FPGA space Is currently being utilized on the Pro ? This becomes important as competition in this space is arriving shortly, introducing additional VP algorithms beyond the core DTM.


Its a big leap from having great code to actually producing a product and operating a support organization. Their pricing will be extremely high as well.

As for FPGA capacity, that's obviously proprietary and confidential. Asking for it in a public forum is inappropriate.


----------



## Karl Maga

jrp said:


> I am a little surprised by all the posts. It appears people have missed my previous posts on this topic.
> 
> Again, I will say that when I ask people if we should work on DTM or on edge enhancements or PiP/PoP, as I have done on numerous occasions, virtually all say DTM. There are a very few exceptions in Europe (and perhaps in the USA that I do not know about).
> 
> We are a small company and must focus on what the majority of our customers want. In this case it was no contest. This has unfortunately meant we have not been able to add edge enhancements sooner. If two years ago people had said they wanted edge enhancements, that is what we would have worked on. When we introduced the Radiance Pro, HDR did not even exist. So we did not have visibility of the need for all the Tone Mapping work that would be needed. While we too are disappointed features we planned have been delayed, I believe there are few that would say we made a bad choice to work on HDR and DTM and put off the other features.
> 
> Based on the preponderance of feedback, our priority for some time has been (in priority order, although PiP and edge enhancements are both about tied for last place):
> 
> DTM
> Pipeline improvements
> Edge enhancements
> PiP/PoP
> 
> We now have DTM well in hand and should have another improvement release in the next few days. Once this DTM release is out we plan to work on pipeline improvements. These will be to increase the bit-depth to 12 and more bits for the entire pipeline (at this point the front end scaling is 10-bits, and the calibration pipeline is 12-bits and higher). Part of this work will be to prepare the pipeline to be able to add edge enhancement. Once we have the pipeline improvements in next on the list is edge enhancements.
> 
> ========
> 
> I have to say I have very mixed feeling about edge enhancements. They by their nature are "creating an artifact." In this case making edges look sharper than they would normally be. And this in general comes with undesired ringing artifacts. If you have a really bad source, you can try to recover some of the lost edges, but for a high quality 4k HDR source, I think edge "enhancement" only makes the image worse. What we hear about enhancement from other products is that they make the image look "over processed" and "artificial." I agree with this assessment. I have been looking at enhancement algorithms for a while now and am working to help insure they truly are enhancements and not creating an artificial looking image.
> 
> I do not have a schedule for edge enhancements, but since the Pro DTM is being judged as by far the best, I am comfortable that we can begin the pipeline improvement and the edge enhancement work.


Jim, I will be purchasing my second 4242-18G this month. Count me amongst the happy customers.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

*Harry* said:


> Regarding discussions about Lumagens features priorization I think, Jim and his team did the right decission. But let's hope, that the next milestone "Pipeline improvements" will not take "years" again, till it comes to everyone's satisfaction 😁
> 
> I've also been waiting for the sharpness function for a long time ... even if my Pana UB9003 makes a great job there, I'd be happy if the pro can do that a little better for 1080p.


That's the problem, I don't want a table-top player to do the job of my $ 8495 videoprocessor. I expect my videoprocessor to do it *much better.* I'd rather switch any filter off on sources and display/vpr and use the ones of the videoprocessor* only.*


----------



## hi_speed

danam said:


> As far as I know (but I can be wrong), DTM wasn't announced as a Radiance Pro feature when it was launched, was it ?
> We got DTM "for free", that's what I meant by "at no cost" ...
> It looks like there is all of a sudden tons of people in need of EE / NR/ ... where were you in the past few months ?
> I don't understand. Besides AVS, did you guys contact Lumagen to ask for a roadmap for unreleased features ? (which is btw a great idea !)
> @jrp ? Do you think you could share some roadmap for next schedules features (ie 12bit pipeling, EE/NR/...) ?


Personally, I just bought the PRO and frankly speaking, I didn't even check those filters availability before buying because I took it for granted after 5 year from PRO release (I was obviously wrong).

Conversely some people asked for this features since the BETA phase, and probably they also wrote to Lumagen... But I can't speak for them.

About DTM you are right, it wasn't announced singe the early stages of PRO development but let me say that's a feature you expect to see implemented for an high end products like the PRO, otherwise the initial cost of the machine is not justified (at least from my point of view).

DTM has also been developed and implemented also in projectors (JVC did it first - for free  , Sony will follow) and players (Panasonic, since 2018 introduced DTM on UB9000 and UB820, enabling UB9000 to interwork with JVC N series to improve the overall HDR performances).

All those DTM implementations are great, because they give you options to manage HDR standars (which are everything but standard) taking into account PJ limitations in terms of lumen output.

If a 300 dollar player can do DTM (maybe not as good as the Radiance intensity mapping but it gets the job done), obviously a 6K dollar video processor must do better.

When you buy an high end gear like the PRO which is a best in class video processor, you expect the video processing to be done exclusively on it, and that includes CMS/3DLUT management, DTM, de-interlacing and various enhacements (yes, image enhancements on a video processor ! 😉)

I think now you understand why I'm not surprised for having DTM "for free" on the PRO (we already paid when we bought the PRO).


----------



## Mike Garrett

feelthesound said:


> Hello,
> 
> Any new of the 12bit 3Dlut ?
> 
> Any chance to see coming this year some new hdmi cards in put and out put 2.1?
> 
> i will buy a NVIDIA ampere 3080 in September, and certainly upgrade my Sony vw5000es in Q4 2020... I really want a full system 12bits 4kdci.
> 
> *I know Madvr Envy will be hdmi 2.1 in Q4 2020*, I hope to do not have to change my lumagen for an Envy...


You know this? Hopefully they even release a product before end of the year.


----------



## Karl Maga

hi_speed said:


> Personally, I just bought the PRO and frankly speaking, I didn't even check those filters availability before buying because I took it for granted after 5 year from PRO release (I was obviously wrong).
> 
> Conversely some people asked for this features since the BETA phase, and probably they also wrote to Lumagen... But I can't speak for them.
> 
> About DTM you are right, it wasn't announced singe the early stages of PRO development but let me say that's a feature you expect to see implemented for an high end products like the PRO, otherwise the initial cost of the machine is not justified (at least from my point of view).
> 
> DTM has also been developed and implemented also in projectors (JVC did it first - for free  , Sony will follow) and players (Panasonic, since 2018 introduced DTM on UB9000 and UB820, enabling UB9000 to interwork with JVC N series to improve the overall HDR performances).
> 
> All those DTM implementations are great, because they give you options to manage HDR standars (which are everything but standard) taking into account PJ limitations in terms of lumen output.
> 
> If a 300 dollar player can do DTM (maybe not as good as the Radiance intensity mapping but it gets the job done), obviously a 6K dollar video processor must do better.
> 
> When you buy an high end gear like the PRO which is a best in class video processor, you expect the video processing to be done exclusively on it, and that includes CMS/3DLUT management, DTM, de-interlacing and various enhacements (yes, image enhancements on a video processor ! 😉)
> 
> I think now you understand why I'm not surprised for having DTM "for free" on the PRO (we already paid when we bought the PRO).


I don't believe the examples you've given are correct. Specifically, the Panasonic units don't do DTM - they do STM (static). There's nothing Dynamic about what they do. That's a big difference.

You said "Conversely some people asked for this features since the BETA phase, and probably they also wrote to Lumagen... But I can't speak for them." - So you did, but then told us you don't.

JVC DTM vs Lumagen DTM - Toyota and Ferrari both offer sport tuned, high performance factory cars. Are they equally effective?


----------



## hi_speed

Karl Maga said:


> I don't believe the examples you've given are correct. Specifically, the Panasonic units don't do DTM - they due STM (static). There's nothing Dynamic about what they do. That's a big difference.


You are right Panasonic HDR optimizer is static but the concept remains.

If a "simple" BD 300$ BD player can do tone mapping (not as good as the JVC and the Radiance one), it goes without saying that an expensive video processor MUST have this feature. It's not optional in 2020 for an high end video processor.



Karl Maga said:


> You said "Conversely some people asked for this features since the BETA phase, and probably they also wrote to Lumagen... But I can't speak for them." - So you did, but then told us you don't.


In 2015 I read other forums about the Radiance PRO development, and I found people asking for those filters since then. I'm not sure if every single guy wrote to Lumagen, for sure someone did (because I know some of them).

I can't speak for people that I don't know, infact I wrote "probably" they wrote to Lumagen.

What's the point ?



Karl Maga said:


> JVC DTM vs Lumagen DTM - Toyota and Ferrari both offer sport tuned, high performance factory cars. Are they equally effective?


JVC DTM is a "plus" for JVC N series PJ, as the equipment cost is determined maily by optics, light path engineering and matrix.
Lumagen DTM is a core feature of the product, because a video processor has to process images in 1st instance... Am I wrong ?


----------



## feelthesound

A pipeline at 12bits is really a need. 

how I know this? Because it’s really easy to have hdmi 2.1for Madshi , it’s just happen with the new nvidia card in September... after that is just a matter of driver.


----------



## hi_speed

*Harry* said:


> Regarding discussions about Lumagens features priorization I think, Jim and his team did the right decission. But let's hope, that the next milestone "Pipeline improvements" will not take "years" again, till it comes to everyone's satisfaction 😁
> 
> I've also been waiting for the sharpness function for a long time ... even if my Pana UB9003 makes a great job there, I'd be happy if the pro can do that a little better for 1080p.


Yes, no one here said Jim and Lumagen team took bad decisions in defining the Radiance PRO Roadmap development.

We were just discussing about next steps...

As far as I understand from Jim statements, pipeline improvements is the baseline for image enhancement filters development on Radiance PRO, so next focus will be on the pipeline for sure.

I hope we can get image enhancers by 2022.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

feelthesound said:


> A pipeline at 12bits is really a need.
> 
> how I know this? Because it’s really easy to have hdmi 2.1for Madshi , it’s just happen with the new nvidia card in September... after that is just a matter of driver.


VW5000ES is 8bit as far as I know, so you won't have full stack 12bit


----------



## ARROW-AV

SoulOfUniverse said:


> VW5000ES is 8bit as far as I know, so you won't have full stack 12bit


Correct 🙂


----------



## Die Zwei

SoulOfUniverse said:


> VW5000ES is 8bit as far as I know, so you won't have full stack 12bit


I guess that´s the reason why he wrote "and certainly upgrade my Sony vw5000es in Q4 2020 "


----------



## bjorg

Wow this thread has gone so off track... Maybe the good souls who are eager to shower Jim with their unsolicited armchair-CEO recommendations of how his company should build products can start a new thread somewhere else? I know I would appreciate it.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

bjorg said:


> Wow this thread has gone so off track... Maybe the good souls who are eager to shower Jim with their unsolicited armchair-CEO recommendations of how his company should build products can start a new thread somewhere else? I know I would appreciate it.


You could point this thread out to a moderator if you're sure there's an off-topic going on


----------



## hi_speed

bjorg said:


> Wow this thread has gone so off track... Maybe the good souls who are eager to shower Jim with their unsolicited armchair-CEO recommendations of how his company should build products can start a new thread somewhere else? I know I would appreciate it.


As far as I know, forums are places where people can share thoughts.

Your comment add anything to the discussion other than being unpleasant. What’s your goal?

We are here to discuss as customers and resellers, and we have all the rights to express our feelings about the development of Lumagen products (that we paid and own).

I also think Jim himself should be interested in feedbacks (I think he is).

As long as the discussion remains civilized I don’t see problems (do you?).

Couldn’t agree more with Gianluca: if you think we are off topic because we are speaking about missing enhancement filters on Radiance PRO thread, then you should point this thread out to moderators and then we will see what’s their point of view.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

hi_speed said:


> I hope we can get image enhancers by 2022.


Hopefully Patrick and Jim will be much much quicker to release the 12bit pipeline and the Picture Enhancement filters! 

The Rad PRO design and hardware will be 7yo in 2022...


----------



## Kris Deering

New update posted that adds Dynamic Desaturation to tone mapping. This fixes a few clipping spots that were still handing around with extremely different high APL scenes. I recommend people load it and change DSAT in the tone map menu to AUTO. Also a cool little trick for Kaleidescape owners that want to cut down on switching speed between the menus and playing a movie.


----------



## jrp

We posted a new release (080120) with significant improvements in the HDR desaturation processing. There is now an automatic mode which is our recommended DeSat mode starting with the 080120 release. The DeSat now always has an automatic component. If you like the burnt-orange flames in Mad Max Fury Road at 0:28:29 to look more yellow (not an unreasonable option), then you can turn the desaturation up. If you had the previous DeSat = 0 use Auto, if you were at 4, then use Low, if you had DeSat in the 8 to 10 range, the use Med, and if you were at 12 to 15 use High.

This release had the Kaleidescape Strato "OSD out of the Pro at 24 Hertz for faster 24 Hertz movie start/stop" using the Strato's HDMI Info Frame's "Transmit Content Type Metadata" feature.

Also found and fixed an issue new to the latest 18 GHz input microcode (showed on a DirecTV Genie 1080 box, and also there is an auto-aspect bug fix.

As I have mentioned on a number of occasions, this means next up is pipeline improvements, and then Edge Enhancement.


----------



## jrp

Karl Maga said:


> Jim, I will be purchasing my second 4242-18G this month. Count me amongst the happy customers.


Thanks for the positive words. And thanks for the support of buying a second processor. 

Sales have really picked up over the past few weeks even during (or maybe partly because of) COVID, and likely for other reasons as well. It's customer like you who allow us to provide free updates which can only happen with ongoing sales. And we of course very much appreciate customers with a single Radiance Pro as well.


----------



## wjchan

@jrp Question about a Kaleidescape-related issue. I have my Strato set to CinemaScape Native 2.35 Display but the Lumagen detects the menu as 1.78. I have tried setting the Auto Aspect Ratio to Image and HDMI+Image. Auto aspect works fine during movie playback. Any suggestion?


----------



## Kris Deering

wjchan said:


> @jrp Question about a Kaleidescape-related issue. I have my Strato set to CinemaScape Native 2.35 Display but the Lumagen detects the menu as 1.78. I have tried setting the Auto Aspect Ratio to Image and HDMI+Image. Auto aspect works fine during movie playback. Any suggestion?


I use this config in my setup with no issues (it recognizes the menu as scope). Do you have the resolution set in the setup menu of the Strato as allow changes? That may effect it. I can look at my settings and make sure they match yours. PM me if I can be of help.


----------



## feelthesound

hockyAVS said:


> I guess that´s the reason why he wrote "and certainly upgrade my Sony vw5000es in Q4 2020 "


yes i will certainly upgrade my vw5000.

The vw5000 do 12 bits at 4kdci 24hz, why do you (soulofuniverse) said 8bits?

He is 8 bits, yes, but at 4kdci 60hz and it’s normal for a hdmi 2.0 projector.


----------



## ARROW-AV

feelthesound said:


> yes i will certainly upgrade my vw5000.
> 
> The vw5000 do 12 bits at 4kdci 24hz, why do you (soulofuniverse) said 8bits?
> 
> He is 8 bits, yes, but at 4kdci 60hz and it’s normal for a hdmi 2.0 projector.


No, the SONY 5000ES most certainly does NOT have 12-bit color processing throughout the electronics. Internally it processes as 8-bit color only, which is the reason why there is manifestation of color banding / posterization. If you attempt to input 12-bit color depth this is downconverted to 8-bit, processed internally as 8-bit, and then upconverted back to 12-bit at the output.

It is indeed 4KDCI resolution though, being 4096 x 2160 as opposed to 4K UHD which is 3840 x 2160 🙂


----------



## ARROW-AV

feelthesound said:


> A pipeline at 12bits is really a need.
> 
> how I know this? Because it’s really easy to have hdmi 2.1for Madshi , it’s just happen with the new nvidia card in September... after that is just a matter of driver.


12-bit color processing is only of benefit if you have a display capable of displaying it. You have a SONY 5000ES which isn't. When you have upgraded this to a display which can, then come back and request 12-bit color processing throughout the electronics with respect to the Lumagen Pro. Who knows, by the time this happens the Lumagen Pro might have already been updated accordingly? 😉

Furthermore, currently the front end is 10-bits and the back end at 12 bits (and higher); and all existing 4K HDR video content is encoded as 10-bit. Consumer Dolby Vision is technically 12-bit color, however firstly this is packaged within a 10-bit container and secondly, in reality essentially zero content is actually mastered beyond 10-bit (according to the professionals who actually carry out the respective grading). Hence, if you have a display that supports 12-bit color properly then what's more important is having a video processor which can take the wide array of 10-bit and 8-bit consumer video content and upscale this to 12-bit color depth, which is what the Lumagen Pro is currently able to do. Having a 12-bit pipeline is only beneficial if you are both using video content which is natively 12-bit color depth and have a video display which is capable of processing 12-bit color properly.

Also worth mentioning that one of the only sources of video content currently with native 12-bit color depth is gaming. Hence it will be nice when the Lumagen is upgraded with respect to having a 12-bit color depth pipeline throughout such that gaming can be enjoyed with native 12-bit color depth. However, since you have mentioned "Madshi" and from your posts it is obvious that you are referring to the madVR Envy video processor in comparison to the Lumagen Pro I feel the need to point out that, unlike the Lumagen PRO, the madVR Envy does not support gaming. So with a madVR Envy not only will you not be able to benefit from 12-bit color depth with respect to gaming, but you won't be able to benefit from using the processor with gaming, period.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

feelthesound said:


> yes i will certainly upgrade my vw5000.
> 
> The vw5000 do 12 bits at 4kdci 24hz, why do you (soulofuniverse) said 8bits?
> 
> He is 8 bits, yes, but at 4kdci 60hz and it’s normal for a hdmi 2.0 projector.


Please see ARROW response and on top of that, all UHD movies are mastered at 4:2:0 10-bit, the only advantage of 12-bit stack system would be probably playing games.


----------



## ARROW-AV

bjorg said:


> Wow this thread has gone so off track... Maybe the good souls who are eager to shower Jim with their unsolicited armchair-CEO recommendations of how his company should build products can start a new thread somewhere else? I know I would appreciate it.





Gianluca Vignini said:


> You could point this thread out to a moderator if you're sure there's an off-topic going on


There really is absolutely no problem discussing all aspects of the product. This is what forums and product threads are suppose to be about. And all products have areas wherein there is room for further development, so suggestions with respect to how a product might be improved yet even further are always welcomed, and feedback with respect to issues with the product are similarly welcomed because this information can be taken on board accordingly and the manufacturer can do something about it as some point in the future. If moderators are called in to silence and gag people from discussing the product and restrict participation with respect to the thread to only persons intending on purchasing the product, then that is a sorry situation indeed, and might make one question the motives behind taking such unnecessary extreme actions in this regard.

Furthermore, I feel the need to point out that Lumagen has a well-established proven track record of not only listening to all of the feedback from its customers but also taking appropriate action accordingly. Product requests have indeed been implemented previously. And IMO the priority with respect to which things have been implemented and the product has been and continues to be developed are well thought out, appropriate, and the correct way of going about things all things considered. For example, HDR Dynamic Tone-Mapping performance implementation and optimization takes priority over sharpening and edge enhancement with 4K resolution that many folks would leave always turned off. That said, even requests for certain features which might only appeal to the minority are taken on board. As such I really cannot see any valid cause for complaint here. 🙂

If folks are wishing to compare the Lumagen with other video processors then this is not the place to do so... Take the conversation here instead please: *Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis & Comparison Thread*


----------



## Die Zwei

Since i´m right now have sitting a 4242 right next to me on my desk i´m hopefully allowed to come back to this thread.  


SoulOfUniverse said:


> Please see ARROW response and on top of that, all UHD movies are mastered at 4:2:0 10-bit, the only advantage of 12-bit stack system would be probably playing games.


The question i´m always asking is anyway "can you really see (or hear) the difference?". On paper, 12bit sounds looks better than 10bit and obviously better than 8bit.
But with just some proper dithering, most people can´t even distinguish between 8bit and 10bit.
So i´m questioning a statement like "A pipeline at 12bits is really a need." anyway. Is it really a need?

BTW: My understanding with regards to the 5000ES (and the other Sonys) is that the root of the problem is not that it´s internal processing is 8bit (only), but that it´s downconverting everything that comes in to 8-bit and then it´s upconverting back to 10-bit for output.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

hockyAVS said:


> Since i´m right now have sitting a 4242 right next to me on my desk i´m hopefully allowed to come back to this thread.
> 
> The question i´m always asking is anyway "can you really see (or hear) the difference?". On paper, 12bit sounds looks better than 10bit and obviously better than 8bit.
> But with just some proper dithering, most people can´t even distinguish between 8bit and 10bit.
> So i´m questioning a statement like "A pipeline at 12bits is really a need." anyway. Is it really a need?


Absolutely agree on this. 



hockyAVS said:


> BTW: My understanding with regards to the 5000ES (and the other Sonys) is that the root of the problem is not that it´s internal processing is 8bit (only), but that it´s downconverting everything that comes in to 8-bit and then it´s upconverting back to 10-bit for output.


As far as I know this relates to VW5000ES and older generations of projectors of Sony, as in regards VW760ES and VW870ES they should have 10 bit processing chips.


----------



## Die Zwei

SoulOfUniverse said:


> As far as I know this relates to VW5000ES and older generations of projectors of Sony, as in regards VW760ES and VW870ES they should have 10 bit processing chips.


Oh, that´s interesting. (although getting OT i´m afraid...)
I just recently had a 760ES sitting right next to my 5000ES and what i and others have noticed is, that the 5000 actually had less banding than the 760.


----------



## bjorg

@ARROW-AV Suggestions on features is one thing, but complaining that Lumagen is dropping the ball by comparing it to a $300 consumer device that doesn't even do the same thing is useful how?

WRT to 12bit pipeline, even if only 10bit is usable, there is still a benefit, because it reduces cumulative error propagation due to truncating intermediary results while determining the final value for each pixel. I would certainly consider this to be a crucial feature for image fidelity and I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## EVH78

hockyAVS said:


> I just recently had a 760ES sitting right next to my 5000ES and what i and others have noticed is, that the 5000 actually had less banding than the 760.


I wished Jim could take a look at this to determine best settings for Sony projectors regarding banding. Right now I have set dithering 8bit and it got better.


----------



## feelthesound

Arrow,
What’s the problem to said the need of a 12 bit pipeline ?
i understand the internal process of the 5000 is 8bits, but :
1 - the lumagen pro is the lut center for all my diffusers
2 - I will get a 12 bit projector because it’s really a need for me, pro raison and gaming.
3- For the pro activity, as a photographer fine art i do 16bits photographie and work with my Eizo (12bits but 16bits lut and colorcheck). I really want use my projector at home to see some results. Exemple in huge format without printing.
4- for the gaming I’m really not the only user who want to have 10/12 bits at 60hz
5- Envy can’t support gaming because of the lag

So vw870 and vw760 are 8bits too? Where do you see that?


----------



## ARROW-AV

feelthesound said:


> Arrow,
> What’s the problem to said the need of a 12 bit pipeline ?
> i understand the internal process of the 5000 is 8bits, but :
> 1 - the lumagen pro is the lut center for all my diffusers
> 2 - I will get a 12 bit projector because it’s really a need for me, pro raison and gaming.
> 3- For the pro activity, as a photographer fine art i do 16bits photographie and work with my Eizo (12bits but 16bits lut and colorcheck). I really want use my projector at home to see some results. Exemple in huge format without printing.
> 4- for the gaming I’m really not the only user who want to have 10/12 bits at 60hz
> 5- Envy can’t support gaming because of the lag
> 
> So vw870 and vw760 are 8bits too? Where do you see that?


Firstly, you are stating it's all-important right now, when right now you don't even have the equipment capable of making use of it. That's like complaining a Lamborghini Aventador SVJ uses a single-clutch transmission when you don't even own a car.

Secondly, currently the front end of the Lumagen Pro is 10-bits and the back end at 12 bits (and higher). This provides full support of all consumer 4K HDR movies and video content, and allows these to be upscaled to 12-bit color. I have used this with respect to the Christie Eclipse projector which fully supports 12-bit color and it looks nothing short of spectacular.

Even so, there are indeed benefits of having a 12-bit pipeline throughout, which is why a 12-bit pipeline throughout is already on Lumagen's 'To Do' list, so everyone can look forward to its future introduction. However, aspects such as HDR Dynamic Tone-Mapping (DTM) development and optimization are more important hence have taken priority and completed first, as they should be.

As and when you purchase a display that is actually capable of supporting 12-bit color properly you can also look forward to this addition to the Lumagen Pro.

The Sony 995ES/870ES and 885ES/760ES, unlike the 5000ES support 10-bit color properly, however some of the video processing can still induce manifestation of banding/posterization

And finally, I was getting deja vu here... Then I remembered we already had a similar conversation previously, wherein what you posted makes clear that you in fact already know of the 5000ES limitations meaning you are being disingenuous sir, so I think it's best we leave it there or else folks might think you are TROLLING: Sony VPL-GTZ380



feelthesound said:


> *In this case, why Sony do not do a new firmware for sony vw5000 es and optional hdmi 2.1 card? And with internal process at 12bit dci even at 60hz 4kdci.
> 
> All Christie 4k are 12 bits DCI internal processing in all resolution.*


----------



## ARROW-AV

SoulOfUniverse said:


> As far as I know this relates to VW5000ES and older generations of projectors of Sony, as in regards VW760ES and VW870ES they should have 10 bit processing chips.


Correct again sir 🙂



hockyAVS said:


> Oh, that´s interesting. (although getting OT i´m afraid...)
> I just recently had a 760ES sitting right next to my 5000ES and what i and others have noticed is, that the 5000 actually had less banding than the 760.


This can be due to a combination of two reasons... firstly there is undefeatable video processing which in the 5000 might be helping to reduce banding (at the expense of also losing some fine detail) and secondly there is video processing which might be contributing to inducing and/or exacerbating manifestation of banding/posterization with respect to certain video content.


----------



## ARROW-AV

hockyAVS said:


> Since i´m right now have sitting a 4242 right next to me on my desk i´m hopefully allowed to come back to this thread.
> 
> The question i´m always asking is anyway "can you really see (or hear) the difference?". On paper, 12bit sounds looks better than 10bit and obviously better than 8bit.
> But with just some proper dithering, most people can´t even distinguish between 8bit and 10bit.
> So i´m questioning a statement like "A pipeline at 12bits is really a need." anyway. Is it really a need?
> 
> BTW: My understanding with regards to the 5000ES (and the other Sonys) is that the root of the problem is not that it´s internal processing is 8bit (only), but that it´s downconverting everything that comes in to 8-bit and then it´s upconverting back to 10-bit for output.


Actually 8-bit color processing will in itself produce manifestation of color banding/posterization 😉

The upgrade from 8-bit color to 10-bit color processing throughout eliminates this almost entirely.

There are diminishing returns here, in that the perceived difference going from 8-bit to 10-bit color are greater than the perceived difference going from 10-bit color to 12-bit color. However, when 12-bit color depth is combined with true wide color gamut, and I am talking 96 - 100% coverage of the BT.2020 color gamut, not merely 100% of DCI-P3, and displayed via RGB laser projection the resultant video image is a sight to behold. Beautiful and mesmerizing! 😍

So yes there is indeed a perceivable benefit with 12-bit color, just a lot less than when transitioning from 8-bit to 10-bit and you really need to be combining it with BT.2020 color in order to really reap the rewards. BUT you need a video display fully capable of displaying 12-bit color properly 🙂

As to the Lumagen Pro, as already mentioned it already supports 12-bit color, not throughout the pipeline, but it fully supports 10-bit at the input, which is what literally all 4K HDR video content is encoded, and then upscales this and output as 12-bit color depth. The full 12-bit pipeline throughout will be a most welcome addition and very nice upgrade but it's not as if the Lumagen is currently a useless doorstop without it, which is what some folks have been attempting to imply 🙄


----------



## bjorg

ARROW-AV said:


> it's not as if the Lumagen is currently a useless doorstop without it, which is what some folks have been attempting to imply 🙄


This had me LOL...


----------



## feelthesound

Okay,

i never really complained! I use lumagen since the XD so...

i do not understand people who want edge enhancements for 4k...

Because I’m a 12bit dci P3 user in photo and video creation, I know How is really Amazing.

And because I’m also ingineer project manager, I know this fact : speak about your need before he happens! Complain when you are in the situation is dumb.

How Jim will know is a need if nobody said it? Who manage a project with in target... the past?

if people want hdmi 2.1 for the end of this year or T1 2021, it’s really important to speak about now.


----------



## Die Zwei

feelthesound said:


> And because I’m also ingineer project manager, I know this fact : speak about your need before he happens! Complain when you are in the situation is dumb.
> 
> How Jim will know is a need if nobody said it?


I agree. You brought up a feature request and i´m pretty sure Jim will have noticed and respond to it. I think it´s quite odd to call a customer´s feature request a "complaint". You can look at a feature request as a complaint about a missing feature, but you can turn in into sth positive saying it´s request to make a good product even better.

I also think it doesn´t really matter if you right now have the gear to benefit from the feature you´re requesting. You´re planning into the future and it´s wise to bring up issues early enough to be fixed before they grow to a problem.
Nothing wrong with that (on the contrary).


----------



## Kris Deering

hockyAVS said:


> Since i´m right now have sitting a 4242 right next to me on my desk i´m hopefully allowed to come back to this thread.
> 
> The question i´m always asking is anyway "can you really see (or hear) the difference?". On paper, 12bit sounds looks better than 10bit and obviously better than 8bit.
> But with just some proper dithering, most people can´t even distinguish between 8bit and 10bit.
> So i´m questioning a statement like "A pipeline at 12bits is really a need." anyway. Is it really a need?
> 
> BTW: My understanding with regards to the 5000ES (and the other Sonys) is that the root of the problem is not that it´s internal processing is 8bit (only), but that it´s downconverting everything that comes in to 8-bit and then it´s upconverting back to 10-bit for output.


I see this same comment made with audio and bit depth. If you have ANY processing going on in a chain (video or audio), you want it to be at a higher resolution as there is never any free lunch. If you have a 10 bit input source, you want to be higher than that in precision so that you don't end up creating issues. It is essentially headroom. You need a much higher precision than the source. This is a lot of the reason that the DTM got better when it went to floating point and that 1D LUT performance got better recently as well (resolution was improved allowing for more precision in adjustments). Any video processor manufacturer would want to have as much precision and headroom as possible for its processing. I'm sure if Jim could have anything he'd want, he'd be operating at 14-16 bit end to end!

Good luck with your 4242 evaluation. Lots of users here that can help out if you have questions.


----------



## Die Zwei

Hi Kris,



Kris Deering said:


> I see this same comment made with audio and bit depth. If you have ANY processing going on in a chain (video or audio), you want it to be at a higher resolution as there is never any free lunch. If you have a 10 bit input source, you want to be higher than that in precision so that you don't end up creating issues. It is essentially headroom.


I´ve studied computer science (it´s been a while though... 🤓), so i know the theory and you´re definitely correct.  
However, i´m a practical guy so i keep asking if sth that in theory is correct, is relevant in practice. It would be a waste of resources if you improve sth that you can´t see or hear. What i´ve learned so far: if you have 500K+ gear in your room, you´ll have a chance of seeing a difference. 



Kris Deering said:


> Good luck with your 4242 evaluation. Lots of users here that can help out if you have questions.


Thanks a lot. Really looking forward!


----------



## ARROW-AV

Kris Deering said:


> I see this same comment made with audio and bit depth. If you have ANY processing going on in a chain (video or audio), you want it to be at a higher resolution as there is never any free lunch. If you have a 10 bit input source, you want to be higher than that in precision so that you don't end up creating issues. It is essentially headroom. You need a much higher precision than the source. This is a lot of the reason that the DTM got better when it went to floating point and that 1D LUT performance got better recently as well (resolution was improved allowing for more precision in adjustments). Any video processor manufacturer would want to have as much precision and headroom as possible for its processing. I'm sure if Jim could have anything he'd want, he'd be operating at 14-16 bit end to end!


This is a really good point Kris. Things can always be improved and having such additional 'headroom' would certainly result in improved performance. But at the same time I think it's importnant to note that the video performance of the Lumagen PRO as of right now is quite simply superb what with all of the various substantial updates and enhancements that have been carried out... AND this is even despite the fact it does not currently have a full 12-bit pipeline throughout. In other words it is not currently subpar / rubbish and in need of fixing in order to produce decent performance. It is currently very good indeed and further improvements in this regard will make it yet even better. I just think it is important to put things in perspective here. The HDR DTM performance has come on leaps and bounds. It is now unrivaled. It is literally the best in the world as of right now. Upscaling performance is fabulous as well. Color me impressed the extent to which Jim has taken on board the feedback and taken action to make significant improvements. It's absolutely fantastic 🙂


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I recommend people load it and change DSAT in the tone map menu to AUTO.





jrp said:


> There is now an automatic mode which is our recommended DeSat mode starting with the 080120 release. The DeSat now always has an automatic component. If you had the previous DeSat = 0 use Auto, if you were at 4, then use Low, if you had DeSat in the 8 to 10 range, the use Med, and if you were at 12 to 15 use High.


I wanted to get some clarification on the new DeSat setting, since the two recommendations seem slightly contradictory.

I just did the update. Before the update, I was using all the DTM defaults. My DeSat was 4 (which was the default). So, after the update I just did, my DeSat setting ended up on "Low".

Should I use the new recommended "auto" setting for DeSat, or keep it on "low" since my previous (default) setting was 4 for DeSat?

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## Kris Deering

hockyAVS said:


> Hi Kris,
> 
> 
> I´ve studied computer science (it´s been a while though... 🤓), so i know the theory and you´re definitely correct.
> However, i´m a practical guy so i keep asking if sth that in theory is correct, is relevant in practice. It would be a waste of resources if you improve sth that you can´t see or hear. What i´ve learned so far: if you have 500K+ gear in your room, you´ll have a chance of seeing a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot. Really looking forward!


Again, it isn't input=output. Whenever you PROCESS something, there has to be something taken away. So the more headroom in processing you have, the less goes away. On top of that, the precision of that processing requires MORE precision than the input. Otherwise you start taking away and get things like banding and such. This isn't the same as upsampling for upsampling sake (like with audio), it is ensuring you have the processor power and precision to give the best results for what you want to achieve with your processing. 



fatherom said:


> I wanted to get some clarification on the new DeSat setting, since the two recommendations seem slightly contradictory.
> 
> I just did the update. Before the update, I was using all the DTM defaults. My DeSat was 4 (which was the default). So, after the update I just did, my DeSat setting ended up on "Low".
> 
> Should I use the new recommended "auto" setting for DeSat, or keep it on "low" since my previous (default) setting was 4 for DeSat?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


I would leave it on Auto. The only reason I can see to go above that is for special case needs like the flames in Mad Max. If you like them orange, you have to go to a higher desat level. But this can also effect content that doesn't need it. The default of 4 was because of the lightning strike frame in Mad Max, but I believe that is already corrected for with Auto, but I can look at it today to verify.


----------



## A7mad78

I try both mid and auto in Mad Max scene and I love the flame look in auto so I go with Kris advise 










The above is in Med 










Here at auto “ pic shot by iPhone” 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

So far so good with the new firmware. Thanks Jim and team !


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> Again, it isn't input=output. Whenever you PROCESS something, there has to be something taken away. So the more headroom in processing you have, the less goes away. On top of that, the precision of that processing requires MORE precision than the input. Otherwise you start taking away and get things like banding and such. This isn't the same as upsampling for upsampling sake (like with audio), it is ensuring you have the processor power and precision to give the best results for what you want to achieve with your processing.


And again, i know the theory.  
But as long you operate above the visible threshold, it doesn´t make any visible(!) difference how much headroom you have. It´s more of a psycholical / marketing issue rather than a technical one.


----------



## blake

To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ? 

I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


----------



## A7mad78

blake said:


> To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ?
> 
> I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


Oppo is great 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woofer

blake said:


> Is oppo 203 still the best bet?


At this moment in time......yes..


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> And again, i know the theory.
> But as long you operate above the visible threshold, it doesn´t make any visible(!) difference how much headroom you have. It´s more of a psycholical / marketing issue rather than a technical one.


Where do you think the visible threshold is? Unless I'm mistaken, that's precisely the reason why DCI packages screened in cinemas are 12 bit 444 and not 10 bit 420...


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## Kris Deering

A7mad78 said:


> I try both mid and auto in Mad Max scene and I love the flame look in auto so I go with Kris advise
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above is in Med
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here at auto “ pic shot by iPhone”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a great example. As Jim mentioned, the higher settings will give you the "yellow" flames that people became accustomed to with older HDR processing, but the bottom one is actually more accurate to the source if you look at the raw color values.


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## SoulOfUniverse

blake said:


> To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ?
> 
> I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


I use oppo udp-203 as I love its features in regards the setup. But I honestly use zx9s and Nvidia shield most of the time since all my uhds are ripped on Nas server. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


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## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Where do you think the visible threshold is? Unless I'm mistaken, that's precisely the reason why DCI packages screened in cinemas are 12 bit 444 and not 10 bit 420...


Completely different format though. Cinemas use JPEG2000 which is far less compressed. Way more chroma resolution (so you would need the higher bit depth anyway). The 10 bit precision of newer content is fantastic though as it allows for way more resolution near black. Better yet would be floating point so you could really optimize the use of the bits. 



blake said:


> To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ?
> 
> I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


The Oppo's are fantastic not only for their source direct mode and other things, but they are great for everyday use in terms of speed and operability. This is one of my chief complaints with the Panasonic models, they are sluggish and a bit tedious in everyday use, despite their fantastic video performance. 

The new Pioneer LX500 I reviewed is VERY similar to the Oppo in a lot of ways (built on the same core video chip), but it lacks some of the customization. But I think it is probably the closest you'll get to the Oppo in today's market and would be a good mate with the Lumagen.


----------



## ARROW-AV

blake said:


> To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ?
> 
> I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


Pioneer UDP-LX800 😉 

Pioneer UDP-LX800 4K UHD Blu-ray player review - This is the Tesseract of disc spinners .


----------



## ARROW-AV

+1 what Kris said ^^^^ 

If you want the best home cinema disc player currently available, the Pioneer UDP-LX800 is it. The Pioneer UDP-LX500 is a less expensive model which also offers superb performance. 🙂


----------



## DenverMDM

Kris Deering said:


> This is a great example. As Jim mentioned, the higher settings will give you the "yellow" flames that people became accustomed to with older HDR processing, but the bottom one is actually more accurate to the source if you look at the raw color values.


Great comparison pics! Kris, I think based on these 2 pics I like the Med setting better. If I chose Med vs Auto would that make other HDR material look too “fake” normally? I’d like to straddle the fence between director’s intent and having an eye candy quality that I think these two pics represent.


----------



## Kris Deering

DenverMDM said:


> Great comparison pics! Kris, I think based on these 2 pics I like the Med setting better. If I chose Med vs Auto would that make other HDR material look too “fake” normally? I’d like to straddle the fence between director’s intent and having an eye candy quality that I think these two pics represent.


No, it would just be a bit more aggressive with desaturation on titles that have brighter colors (typically this is only a small subset of content). If you wanted to get an idea of the difference between different levels, watch the Spears and Munsil Montage on their 4K UHD disc. Pick one of the 4,000 or 10,000 nit grades and toggle between the DSAT levels. You'll see the differences.


----------



## DenverMDM

Kris Deering said:


> No, it would just be a bit more aggressive with desaturation on titles that have brighter colors (typically this is only a small subset of content). If you wanted to get an idea of the difference between different levels, watch the Spears and Munsil Montage on their 4K UHD disc. Pick one of the 4,000 or 10,000 nit grades and toggle between the DSAT levels. You'll see the differences.


I have a copy and will check it out. Might also just rewatch some familiar titles with the med setting and see if I like it.


----------



## Kris Deering

DenverMDM said:


> I have a copy and will check it out. Might also just rewatch some familiar titles with the med setting and see if I like it.


with random HDR titles you likely won’t see much difference. Dsat only applies to very specific cases which are pretty rare.


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## jrp

Kris, Arrow-AV, and others, are right on that processing should be at a precision higher than the source content. However, HDR's extreme Gamma near black reduces the need for more bits near black (the most critical range) as I will touch on in a moment.

But first:

The front end of the Pro is current 10-bits. _If_ processing on 10-bit data is to be done it would be nice to do this at 12-bits. For this reason we are redoing the pipeline to be entirely 12-bits and higher.

So why the "if" above? I point this out since if the source is 10-bit HDR and the input resolution matches the output resolution, the 10-bit section of the Pro pipeline is not doing any processing. So 10-bit is just right.

If you have a 2.40 aspect 4k HDR source, on a 2.40 screen with the Pro set to 3840x2160 output (with appropriate "Output Shrink" and "Scale Bias" = Off), the active input resolution is the same as the active output resolution and so no scaling is needed. The 10-bit HDR passes through the 10-bit pipeline front-end to the 12-bit portion of the pipeline without any processing, and so no additional precision is needed.

If on the other hand you have an anamorphic lens, then the Pro needs to vertically scale the content, and in this case the extra bits can help, which is why we want to increase the pipeline to at least 12-bits.

Now on to why, for 10-bit HDR content, especially near black, 10-bit calculation is a lot:

Because of the extremely high Gamma for HDR, which is above 6 near black, a 10-bit pipeline goes a long way. Fully a third of the range of HDR is dedicated to the first few nits. So near black changing the data by a number of 10-bit resolution LSB's is not visible to mere mortals, especially on consumer grade equipment. A 10-bit HDR pipeline has the resolution of a 16-bit and higher SDR (Bt.1886 Gamma) pipeline near black. This is a huge benefit of HDR and why I believe HDR is more about improved blacks than about overly-bright objects. Said another way, near black a 10-bit HDR pipeline is better than a 16 bit SDR pipeline for precision.

So what about bright objects for 10-bit HDR? Even giving a third of the precision to near black objects, 10-bit HDR still has more than twice the code value range as SDR for the remainder of the brightness curve. That is around 600 code values versus approximately 200.

Near the most critical black range, 10-bits is really very good. We still want to improve this to 12-bits to have more calculation precision headroom. Also note that the above discussion on Gamma also means that we really do not visibly benefit from higher than 12-bits in HDR Bt.2084 Gamma. I always try to make sure that we only do what is visible from a "perception physics" point of view. Using 12-bit is the right precision IMO for the "Source Gamma" portion of the pipeline. We went to floating point for the "Linear Gamma" portion of the pipeline since it was necessary for precision near black due to the math of linear Gamma (this is already in the Radiance Pro releases).

I hope this sheds some light on the current pipeline, on what we plan to do, and why we plan to do it.


----------



## dgkula

blake said:


> To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ?
> 
> I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


I have the Panasonic ub900. It does not have a source-direct mode but if it detects a display device with EDID hat only plays 1080p it will play that source and not upscale. So create a virtual input that you will use to play Blu ray and have the lumagen force the 1080p EDID abd then you can use the lumagen to upscale to 4k. There are details on this earlier in the thread. Maybe search for 1080 and EDID.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Kris Deering said:


> Completely different format though. Cinemas use JPEG2000 which is far less compressed. Way more chroma resolution (so you would need the higher bit depth anyway). The 10 bit precision of newer content is fantastic though as it allows for way more resolution near black. Better yet would be floating point so you could really optimize the use of the bits.
> 
> 
> 
> The Oppo's are fantastic not only for their source direct mode and other things, but they are great for everyday use in terms of speed and operability. This is one of my chief complaints with the Panasonic models, they are sluggish and a bit tedious in everyday use, despite their fantastic video performance.
> 
> *The new Pioneer LX500 I reviewed is VERY similar to the Oppo in a lot of ways (built on the same core video chip), but it lacks some of the customization. But I think it is probably the closest you'll get to the Oppo in today's market and would be a good mate with the Lumagen.*


If you find one. I believe it will be next year before they are shipping again form the manufacturer.


----------



## blake

Mike Garrett said:


> If you find one. I believe it will be next year before they are shipping again form the manufacturer.


It is surprising/disappointing that the two best Blu Ray players are either manufacturer gone (Oppo) or near impossible to find (Pioneer LX500). 

Also worried about Pioneer’s commitment to Blu ray as well, given all the management/ownership changes happening with them.


----------



## riddle

Hi, i think Sony X1100ES have HDMI source-direct mode too what i hear and he use some MediaTek cpu too. German review OPPO vs SONY


----------



## Die Zwei

We´ve got the Sony in our showroom. I think it´s doing a pretty good job. However, it´s not very popular.
If there´s sth i should test, give me a shout.


----------



## A7mad78

DenverMDM said:


> Great comparison pics! Kris, I think based on these 2 pics I like the Med setting better. If I chose Med vs Auto would that make other HDR material look too “fake” normally? I’d like to straddle the fence between director’s intent and having an eye candy quality that I think these two pics represent.


Even though the pic not reflect what I see in actual i spend time to compare and in the room from what I see I prefers the auto but again as u said an eye candy and ur personal preference 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

This is probably the frame that raises the most question for me about appropriate setting.
From S&M, REC709 version - note the sun:









Various settings of desat on the 4000NIT REC2020|P3 version (though they all do the same if I recall correct). At Auto, the sun almost disappears (you can just make it out if you squint). Note these are all terrible handheld phone pics just for making this point, probably not the exact same frame as above either due to the way S&M menu blocks in pause mode.


----------



## jtjjen

hockyAVS said:


> We´ve got the Sony in our showroom. I think it´s doing a pretty good job. However, it´s not very popular.
> If there´s sth i should test, give me a shout.


What is “sth”? You have used it repeatedly so not a typo. I assume some acronym. Thanks!

John


----------



## danam

Short for something ?


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> The front end of the Pro is current 10-bits. _If_ processing on 10-bit data is to be done it would be nice to do this at 12-bits. For this reason we are redoing the pipeline to be entirely 12-bits and higher.


Hi, could you open up what you guys mean with the "front end" and "back end"?


----------



## Die Zwei

danam said:


> Short for something ?


Yep, apologies - i picked it up here in the forum so i thought it´s a common abbreviation.


----------



## danam

hockyAVS said:


> Yep, apologies - i picked it up here in the forum so i thought it´s a common abbreviation.


No need to apology, I had to think about it to figure it out


----------



## jtjjen

Thanks - never would have guessed that one.

John


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> This is probably the frame that raises the most question for me about appropriate setting.
> From S&M, REC709 version - note the sun:
> View attachment 3028110
> 
> 
> Various settings of desat on the 4000NIT REC2020|P3 version (though they all do the same if I recall correct). At Auto, the sun almost disappears (you can just make it out if you squint). Note these are all terrible handheld phone pics just for making this point, probably not the exact same frame as above either due to the way S&M menu blocks in pause mode.
> 
> View attachment 3028111
> 
> View attachment 3028112
> 
> View attachment 3028113


Thank you for your findings, extremely helpful! I installed the fw but my sky receiver is not working since, anyone with a similar problem? The Zappiti and Oppo work fine with it. So I went back to 060120.


----------



## riddle

EVH78 said:


> Thank you for your findings, extremely helpful! I installed the fw but my sky receiver is not working since, anyone with a similar problem? The Zappiti and Oppo work fine with it. So I went back to 060120.


I have a very similar experience, but on all inputs (on OPPO its working bether on AppleTV 4K less). On recommendation from Jim, I ordered a complete new HDMI cabling because apparently my OEM is not the right solution  . Maybe it would help you too


----------



## EVH78

riddle said:


> I have a very similar experience, but on all inputs (on OPPO its working bether on AppleTV 4K less). On recommendation from Jim, I ordered a complete new HDMI cabling because apparently my OEM is not the right solution  . Maybe it would help you too


He suggested a boot loader update. My cables are good, thank you! 

I believe there is bug with the new HDMI microcode...


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> Thank you for your findings, extremely helpful!


You're welcome. I'm not advocating for one setting or the other as I'm only playing with it at the moment, just showing a "non-explosions gun blazing scene" (admittedly on demo reel content and not a real movie) where it would appear that auto may result in some detail being lost.


----------



## riddle

EVH78 said:


> He suggested a boot loader update. My cables are good, thank you!
> 
> I believe there is bug with the new HDMI microcode...


This also can be true, I will check it when new HDMI cabling will arive.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> You're welcome. I'm not advocating for one setting or the other as I'm only playing with it at the moment, just showing a "non-explosions gun blazing scene" (admittedly on demo reel content and not a real movie) where it would appear that auto may result in some detail being lost.


Good find. Again, this only applies to content that is extremely high. If you look at that same clip in the 1000 nit grade, it shouldn't matter what DSAT is at. So the setting really only applies to rather extreme cases.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Good find. Again, this only applies to content that is extremely high. If you look at that same clip in the 1000 nit grade, it shouldn't matter what DSAT is at. So the setting really only applies to rather extreme cases.


Have you checked it? I thought I did look and I thought it was similar, will check when I get home again. I know the 10k 2020 and 4k P3 grades for sure are like this.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Have you checked it? I thought I did look and I thought it was similar, will check when I get home again. I know the 10k 2020 and 4k P3 grades for sure are like this.


I will look today. The DSAT really should only apply to titles near or above 4000 nits. Also, be aware that the 4000 nit grades on the S&M disc are clipped grades (it was produced from the 10000 nit grade and hard clipped at anything above 4000 nits). The other grades are actually new trim passes for that nit level (new trim passes are marked with asterisk in the menu).


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> I will look today. The DSAT really should only apply to titles near or above 4000 nits. Also, be aware that the 4000 nit grades on the S&M disc are clipped grades (it was produced from the 10000 nit grade and hard clipped at anything above 4000 nits). The other grades are actually new trim passes for that nit level (new trim passes are marked with asterisk in the menu).


Does that mean the Auto setting is not working correctly with some scenes? Does it not rely on metadata?


----------



## DenverMDM

A7mad78 said:


> Even though the pic not reflect what I see in actual i spend time to compare and in the room from what I see I prefers the auto but again as u said an eye candy and ur personal preference
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with you. After watching that Mad Max Fury Road scene repeatedly and watching a few GOTG 2 scenes Im familiar with, I prefer the Auto setting. It’s more accurate and provides all the eye candy I need!


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Have you checked it? I thought I did look and I thought it was similar, will check when I get home again. I know the 10k 2020 and 4k P3 grades for sure are like this.


Looking at the 4000 nit montage, I would recommend DSAT LOW. This makes the sun show up more prominently in the shot you referred to, but it also helps with the red shading in the opening when there is the tighter shot on the clouds passing over the tops of the mountains (right before the fence scene). Another good scene to look at is the cows eating. If you switch between the different DSAT levels, you'll see that the blue sky changes significantly, with high being way too aggressive.

For all, you need to be careful when using the S&M to evaluate the DSAT settings. It is NOT in any way mastered the same as movie content. Stacey wanted to keep not only a high peak level buy a higher APL to show what HDR can do. Movie content that is mastered with very high APL and peaks is very rare (this is why The Meg is used for a lot of stress testing as it is an example, as is Starship Troopers). I think for movie playback AUTO will work 99% of the time just fine (it even works great on The Meg and fixes some of the issues we were seeing with that title). But since DSAT only applies to VERY limited cases of extremes, using LOW would be fine as well. I probably would not recommend HIGH based on my testing with S&M.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I will look today. The DSAT really should only apply to titles near or above 4000 nits. Also, be aware that the 4000 nit grades on the S&M disc are clipped grades (it was produced from the 10000 nit grade and hard clipped at anything above 4000 nits). The other grades are actually new trim passes for that nit level (new trim passes are marked with asterisk in the menu).


I must say I'm doubting myself now. I though I saw it, and even just went back and convinced myself I saw it again on the 1000nit version, and yetevery time I've gone back now to try and capture it I couldn't see it again! 

Meh. Anyway it's not a big deal either way really, as to be honest this is all peeping and I think on the whole both auto and low settings of it look excellent. I was just going back through and re-watching a few scenes from some favourite disks and just thinking to myself how well sorted the DTM is on the Radiance these days.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Looking at the 4000 nit montage, I would recommend DSAT LOW. This makes the sun show up more prominently in the shot you referred to, but it also helps with the red shading in the opening when there is the tighter shot on the clouds passing over the tops of the mountains (right before the fence scene). Another good scene to look at is the cows eating. If you switch between the different DSAT levels, you'll see that the blue sky changes significantly, with high being way too aggressive.
> 
> For all, you need to be careful when using the S&M to evaluate the DSAT settings. It is NOT in any way mastered the same as movie content. Stacey wanted to keep not only a high peak level buy a higher APL to show what HDR can do. Movie content that is mastered with very high APL and peaks is very rare (this is why The Meg is used for a lot of stress testing as it is an example, as is Starship Troopers). I think for movie playback AUTO will work 99% of the time just fine (it even works great on The Meg and fixes some of the issues we were seeing with that title). But since DSAT only applies to VERY limited cases of extremes, using LOW would be fine as well. I probably would not recommend HIGH based on my testing with S&M.


High is really interesting on that sunset scene as it totally robs all the saturation in the sunset clouds, quite striking just how strong the effect is.
As you say this isn't likely that representative of real movies at all, I get the feeling the knobs are up to 11 in places on S&M to really exploit the various HDR mastering levels. Just an interesting example. 

Anyway, this update is looking good on my system, not seen any issues so far. Nice one and thanks to all involved.


----------



## A7mad78

Rewatch coco and mad max and they look great for me it’s one of the best update for the DTM and saw some details in coco was not visible before 

Well done to all who was behind this work  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> This release had the Kaleidescape Strato "OSD out of the Pro at 24 Hertz for faster 24 Hertz movie start/stop" using the Strato's HDMI Info Frame's "Transmit Content Type Metadata" feature.


Yesterday, Jim was kind enough to FaceTime with me and help me set up the Kaleidescape feature in the Radiance Pro. It now works very fast as advertised.
Jim's level of customer service is impeccable - the product is stellar - but the customer service is hard to beat and with almost no competition in site and Lumagen continuing to improve the product with updates, this is my top two video improvement investment (other one is the DCR).


----------



## Ash Sharma

Now its time to propose a 4K HDR Movie which showcases Lumagen's DTM prowess best 

Wise man once told me (its car analogy) .... its not how fast it drives ... but how it handles.

OK - No takers ... so my Suggestions - Yondu's funeral Gaudians of Galaxy 2 - very cool

Looking for suggestions...


----------



## SJHT

The latest firmware is making my system unstable for my Sony 995 and Strato. Black screens, white screens, no video. Reverting back to the previous firmware gets it working again. Never really had an issue like this before, but I know there was another 18Ghz input firmware change. Sent a note to support, but glad you can roll back! SJ


----------



## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> The latest firmware is making my system unstable for my Sony 995 and Strato. Black screens, white screens, no video. Reverting back to the previous firmware gets it working again. Never really had an issue like this before, but I know there was another 18Ghz input firmware change. Sent a note to support, but glad you can roll back! SJ


Unplug the power remove the hdmi then back the power to do the update in boot mode which I always do then again unplug the power and get the hdmi back ..hope it help 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> The latest firmware is making my system unstable for my Sony 995 and Strato. Black screens, white screens, no video. Reverting back to the previous firmware gets it working again. Never really had an issue like this before, but I know there was another 18Ghz input firmware change. Sent a note to support, but glad you can roll back! SJ


I've heard a few others say they are having issues with their Strato after this update. Mine has worked with no issues since the update and I imagine Jim's is working fine since he has one as well and was testing his with the new K-scape feature. I let Jim know that I've seen several reports of issues with the Strato.


----------



## thrang

Same here with my 5000 and Strato with the latest firmware (received today from K) Black, white, green screens, with the new flag option on or off. I can "blind" play a random move by navigating the K arrow and enter buttons, and the movie seems to start. But when I hit stop or home, I get a black screen instead of the menu. Occasionally the glitch is so bad its impacting other Radiance inputs with carryover loss of sync.

I've powered everything down and unplugged for all power for 30 seconds as well, which sometimes fixes these things, but to no avail.

And the issue exists with both the new and original output microcode, so perhaps more than just the output firmware (not sure if 0801 changed that) or its the input firmware changed noted in the download notes ("*New 18Ghz input chip firmware has small improvements from update on 051820")*

Perhaps Lumagen didn't have a chance to really test this input firmware change (at all or enough) with the newest K firmware which is only now being rolled out....


----------



## jrp

The 080120 has a new 18 GHz input chip microcode from the chip vendor that worked for the initial testing we did. It is working fine with my Strato and all sources. It is really difficult to know until code "gets into the wild" if it will have issues and it appears the newest 18 GHz input microcode does have issues.

We are going to post a test release where only the input microcode is changed to confirm if it is the input microcode causing the issues.

There is a test you can do if you think the update might have failed because the unit is not behaving. After an update that is suspect (it might appear to complete correctly), you need to do a "Boot Mode Update." Setup just as with a normal update. Once ready, before clicking Start, remove and restore power to the Pro, and then leaving the Pro off, within 10 seconds of restoring power, click Start.

No idea if anyone who has issues with 080120 had an update fail, but I think it is worth trying since the update is working well for many, and poorly for others.


----------



## thrang

Thanks Jim - I didn’t have a failure but did a boot loader update anyway before retiring so will check tomorrow


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

*There could be a problem.*

Scenario :


DTM is active
Playing the european version of the Bluray _Star Trek - The future begins_ (2009) [ Star Trek (film) - Wikipedia ] with my Oppo 203
The MaxCLL is wrongly indicated as "Zero" in the disc's metadata
This PRO's setting is involved : HDR Setup > Max Default (Default HDR Src MaxCLL)










This setting should be (*currently not active*) and it defaults to 4000 nits
While watching it's clear the movie doesn't look fine (way too dark) so I decide to check the Default HDR Src MaxCLL although it should not change anything since it's (*currently not active*). However the pictures changes and gets sensibly better while moving from 4000 to 1000 nits and that proves the setting *is actually active*.
Then a tried the same Max Default (Default HDR Src MaxCLL) setting with a disc reporting a MaxCLL value (different from Zero) and the setting is confirmed to be *inactive*.
_I thought the latest iterations of the DTM skipped the metadata-stored MaxCLL value in favor of its own analysis and interpretation, was I wrong? The above-mentioned experience makes me think anything is not working as it should_

*Thanks!*


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Yesterday updated to the latest firmware no issues , booted up as it should and no green screens between switching the devices.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Gianluca Vignini said:


> _I thought the latest iterations of the DTM skipped the metadata-stored MaxCLL value in favor of its own analysis and interpretation, was I wrong? The above-mentioned experience makes me think anything is not working as it should_


I don't have answer to the rest of this, but on this one point, I don't think it has ever been the case that DTM actually doesn't use the Metadata _to some extent _if it is present. I have a couple of ramp videos where the data goes from 0-10000 nits, same data, one with 1000 and one with 10000 nit metadata, and they display differently at the top end of the ramps when output from my Oppo-clone.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

bobof said:


> I don't have answer to the rest of this, but on this one point, I don't think it has ever been the case that DTM actually doesn't use the Metadata _to some extent _if it is present. I have a couple of ramp videos where the data goes from 0-10000 nits, same data, one with 1000 and one with 10000 nit metadata, and they display differently at the top end of the ramps when output from my Oppo-clone.


We need to deepen because something wrong occurs when _no_ MaxCLL is indicated in the Metadata


----------



## bobof

Gianluca Vignini said:


> We need to deepen because something wrong occurs when _no_ MaxCLL is indicated in the Metadata


Maybe it is just the setting of that text that indicates it is not being used is incorrect. Seems like a small presentation bug if it is otherwise doing what it should?


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> The 080120 has a new 18 GHz input chip microcode from the chip vendor that worked for the initial testing we did. It is working fine with my Strato and all sources. It is really difficult to know until code "gets into the wild" if it will have issues and it appears the newest 18 GHz input microcode does have issues.
> 
> We are going to post a test release where only the input microcode is changed to confirm if it is the input microcode causing the issues.
> 
> There is a test you can do if you think the update might have failed because the unit is not behaving. After an update that is suspect (it might appear to complete correctly), you need to do a "Boot Mode Update." Setup just as with a normal update. Once ready, before clicking Start, remove and restore power to the Pro, and then leaving the Pro off, within 10 seconds of restoring power, click Start.
> 
> No idea if anyone who has issues with 080120 had an update fail, but I think it is worth trying since the update is working well for many, and poorly for others.


The boot loader update solved the issue completely for me. Once the update finished the unit goes to standby, that´s when I unplugged all Hdmi cables (should have probably been doing this at start - but I remembered it only at that point) and removed the power cable again. Then turned the radiance back on and everything worked fine.


----------



## jtjjen

Do the people that are having issues with the Strato have them paired with Premiere/Alto or stand-alone?

John


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

Gianluca Vignini said:


> We need to deepen because something wrong occurs when _no_ MaxCLL is indicated in the Metadata


I'd wait for Jim's reply. Because in *Dynamic* Tone Mapping that setting should not be active and the MaxCLL should be auto-determined. I can be wrong, of course.


----------



## docrog

blake said:


> To Radiance Pro owners : what’s the best Blu-Ray player to pair with the Lumagen ?
> 
> I would think a player with “source-direct” mode, to allow the Lumagen to upscale all 1080p content. The odd thing is most players don’t have this mode. Is oppo 203 still the best bet? Any others ?


If you're connecting audio via HDMI (versus 7.1 analog) then you should consider the Sony UHD players since they seem to be the only ones which have the ability to turn off 4K upscaling and also can play SACDs. I'm currently using the UBP-X700 and the performance has been flawless for both UHD BR and HD BR (output at 1080p) discs. You just have to get over the form factor (it's not an Oppo tank) and lack of front panel display; it's a very competent spinner at an absolutely amazing price when paired with the Radiance Pro!


----------



## bobof

I was always quite impressed with the build on the Sony UBP-X800 unit, sure the materials weren't very expensive but they'd put clearly a lot of engineering smarts into the player chassis and everything seemed pretty solid in use.


----------



## bobof

Gianluca Vignini said:


> I'd wait for Jim's reply. Because in *Dynamic* Tone Mapping that setting should not be active and the MaxCLL should be auto-determined. I can be wrong, of course.


I'm referring to some specific test content I have (I think a version of it will appear on the revised UHD disc from Spears & Munsil when it comes out, I was discussing it back and forward with @sspears a while back, he sent me some initial versions) where the pixel data in the image is *higher* than the declared MaxCLL. DTM is usually dealing with the fact that the per-title MaxCLL is a poor indicator of the "scene MaxCLL", because one bright pixel somewhere in the movie sets the MaxCLL for the whole disc; the case where content pixel data is higher than declared MaxCLL is a bit unusual, and would usually be from a bad mastering or a defective player (as the way MaxCLL should be calculated for a title is set out in the standards). It is actually quite legitimate per my recollection not to output MaxCLL data at all if you choose.

I >think< the way the Radiance works is that it uses the maxCLL if present as broadly a "ceiling" to work to, but then calculates lower (content based) MaxCLLs for the tone mapping on a scene by scene basis. Clearly that would be a strategy that would be vulnerable though to a player outputting fixed 1000 nit metadata if the title had content above 1000 nits.

Anyway, it would be interesting to hear how it works, I'm just going off my "observed behaviour" using some test content I have.  It might have even changed in recent times with the desaturation work.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> Good luck with your 4242 evaluation. Lots of users here that can help out if you have questions.


Just spend some initial time with the device and i have to say it really went well.
First seeing the OSD made me laugh and i immediately felt 30 years younger, but it´s very efficient and does the job. After all, i want to watch movies, not OSDs.  
However, there are lots of settings which definitely need some time to get to know them.
DTM with just some basic setting looked really good. I didn´t spend much time fine-tuning, but what i saw was really good.

So now i need to dive a bit deeper into settings i guess.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> I was always quite impressed with the build on the Sony UBP-X800 unit, sure the materials weren't very expensive but they'd put clearly a lot of engineering smarts into the player chassis and everything seemed pretty solid in use.


I own both the X700 & X800 and, other than the X800 being a heavier chassis, they are essentially identical in features and performance (with the X700 being $100 cheaper than the X800M2).


----------



## MDesigns

bobof said:


> I >think< the way the Radiance works is that it uses the maxCLL if present as broadly a "ceiling" to work to, but then calculates lower (content based) MaxCLLs for the tone mapping on a scene by scene basis. Clearly that would be a strategy that would be vulnerable though to a player outputting fixed 1000 nit metadata if the title had content above 1000 nits.
> 
> Anyway, it would be interesting to hear how it works, I'm just going off my "observed behaviour" using some test content I have.  It might have even changed in recent times with the desaturation work.


Do you use Apple TV? Apple TV I believe is famous for constantly changing metadata. Shouldn't that trip up the DTM if it uses that even in some way?


----------



## bobof

MDesigns said:


> Do you use Apple TV? Apple TV I believe is famous for constantly changing metadata. Shouldn't that trip up the DTM if it uses that even in some way?


I think there is some subtlety with how AppleTV is dealt with with respect to the changing metadata mid stream, or the effect of the changing data just isn't so large in the normally visible range.


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Same here with my 5000 and Strato with the latest firmware (received today from K) Black, white, green screens, with the new flag option on or off. I can "blind" play a random move by navigating the K arrow and enter buttons, and the movie seems to start. But when I hit stop or home, I get a black screen instead of the menu. Occasionally the glitch is so bad its impacting other Radiance inputs with carryover loss of sync.
> 
> I've powered everything down and unplugged for all power for 30 seconds as well, which sometimes fixes these things, but to no avail.
> 
> And the issue exists with both the new and original output microcode, so perhaps more than just the output firmware (not sure if 0801 changed that) or its the input firmware changed noted in the download notes ("*New 18Ghz input chip firmware has small improvements from update on 051820")*
> 
> Perhaps Lumagen didn't have a chance to really test this input firmware change (at all or enough) with the newest K firmware which is only now being rolled out....


As you know, I have the new K firmware and have had it for a few days now. I've been using the Strato regularly since then and have had ZERO issues with my Lumagen with it. This includes extensive back and forthing between the menus and movies playing, looking at scenes and more. Not so much as a hiccup. I thought this may be related to the older style Strato's (taller versions), but that doesn't seem to be the case based on your situation and a few others. 



jtjjen said:


> Do the people that are having issues with the Strato have them paired with Premiere/Alto or stand-alone?
> 
> John


I have a Strato that is paired with an Alto (via Radiance co-star license). They are plugged into different input cards though per Lumagen and K's advice.


----------



## SJHT

I was sent the new update with the last HDMI input firmware and it works great. It would be good if folks mention your displays/sources if you give any firmware feedback (assuming not in your signature).. My primary issue was with my Sony 995 and my Strato, but as mentioned it seem to carry over into other sources. I do have a Strato/Alto/DV700 costar using the Lumagen.. SJ


----------



## bobof

For what it is worth the last public release worked fine on my system; JVC DLA-X7900, Oppo-clone, Shield 2019 and AppleTV, NAD T758V3. All 18G cards throughout on a 4242.


----------



## appelz

jtjjen said:


> Do the people that are having issues with the Strato have them paired with Premiere/Alto or stand-alone?
> 
> John


I had issues yesterday with a paired system. JVC 4500, paired Strato. No problems with Oppo, AppleTV, Roku, CableTV box


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> I have a Strato that is paired with an Alto (via Radiance co-star license). They are plugged into different input cards though per Lumagen and K's advice.


Working flawlessly here also - still using your December Calibration file... 
I am having one minor issue - when I hit covers on Kaleidescape - the covers fill up 1:85 screen - and the AR mask of the screen is at the right place.
Any way that the covers fill the whole screen (scope 2:40) and AR open accordingly?


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> Working flawlessly here also - still using your December Calibration file...
> I am having one minor issue - when I hit covers on Kaleidescape - the covers fill up 1:85 screen - and the AR mask of the screen is at the right place.
> Any way that the covers fill the whole screen (scope 2:40) and AR open accordingly?


To make the covers fill the whole scope screen you have to go into the web setup for the Kscape, enable allow resolution changes and pick the last selection for their Scope screen settings (the non lens one). This will keep the main tile menu scope but output movies in their native aspect ratios.


----------



## EVH78

EVH78 said:


> The boot loader update solved the issue completely for me. Once the update finished the unit goes to standby, that´s when I unplugged all Hdmi cables (should have probably been doing this at start - but I remembered it only at that point) and removed the power cable again. Then turned the radiance back on and everything worked fine.


Update: Still green screens after turning the pj off and back on. FW unstable in my system.


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> If you're connecting audio via HDMI (versus 7.1 analog) then you should consider the Sony UHD players since they seem to be the only ones which have the ability to turn off 4K upscaling and also can play SACDs. I'm currently using the UBP-X700 and the performance has been flawless for both UHD BR and HD BR (output at 1080p) discs. You just have to get over the form factor (it's not an Oppo tank) and lack of front panel display; it's a very competent spinner at an absolutely amazing price when paired with the Radiance Pro!





bobof said:


> I was always quite impressed with the build on the Sony UBP-X800 unit, sure the materials weren't very expensive but they'd put clearly a lot of engineering smarts into the player chassis and everything seemed pretty solid in use.


I‘ve used a Sony UBP-X800 since the beginning with my 4242-18g and never had a problem. I chose it because it outputs source direct (no upscale). Fantastic performance and reliability, and a reasonable price.


----------



## Karl Maga

hockyAVS said:


> Just spend some initial time with the device and i have to say it really went well.
> First seeing the OSD made me laugh and i immediately felt 30 years younger, but it´s very efficient and does the job. After all, i want to watch movies, not OSDs.
> However, there are lots of settings which definitely need some time to get to know them.
> DTM with just some basic setting looked really good. I didn´t spend much time fine-tuning, but what i saw was really good.
> 
> So now i need to dive a bit deeper into settings i guess.


I’m intrigued by your interest in the Radiance Pro, what compelled you to look at it? I thought you were “all in“ on a different solution.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

hockyAVS said:


> Just spend some initial time with the device and i have to say it really went well.
> First seeing the OSD made me laugh and i immediately felt 30 years younger, but it´s very efficient and does the job. After all, i want to watch movies, not OSDs.
> However, there are lots of settings which definitely need some time to get to know them.
> DTM with just some basic setting looked really good. I didn´t spend much time fine-tuning, but what i saw was really good.
> 
> So now i need to dive a bit deeper into settings i guess.


What projector u use It with I have some good settings manual to begin with if you have 760es? 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

Karl Maga said:


> I‘ve used a Sony UBP-X800 since the beginning with my 4242-18g and never had a problem. I chose it because it outputs source direct (no upscale). Fantastic performance and reliability, and a reasonable price.


As I previously mentioned, having owned them both, the X700 is essentially the same spinner as the X800/X800M2 at $100 cheaper. One thing, though, in order for it to be source direct you would have to go to the settings menu and select the SD resolution for DVD because with the video resolution in "AUTO" DVD (SD) is output at 1080p (HD) when you defeat 4K upscaling on a 4K compatible display. In any case, it will be the Lumagen, rather than the Sony, making that final upscaling step to 4K.


----------



## Die Zwei

Karl Maga said:


> I’m intrigued by your interest in the Radiance Pro, what compelled you to look at it? I thought you were “all in“ on a different solution.


I´m a solution provider, so i´m always in search of the best solution for our customers. I´m never "all in" for one solution, always keeping my eyes open.
I got the opportunity to get a demo unit and took it  



SoulOfUniverse said:


> What projector u use It with I have some good settings manual to begin with if you have 760es?


It´s a 5000ES.


----------



## blake

docrog said:


> If you're connecting audio via HDMI (versus 7.1 analog) then you should consider the Sony UHD players since they seem to be the only ones which have the ability to turn off 4K upscaling and also can play SACDs. I'm currently using the UBP-X700 and the performance has been flawless for both UHD BR and HD BR (output at 1080p) discs. You just have to get over the form factor (it's not an Oppo tank) and lack of front panel display; it's a very competent spinner at an absolutely amazing price when paired with the Radiance Pro!


How do you disable 4K upscaling with the Sony ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

hockyAVS said:


> Just spend some initial time with the device and i have to say it really went well.
> First seeing the OSD made me laugh and i immediately felt 30 years younger, but it´s very efficient and does the job. After all, i want to watch movies, not OSDs.
> However, there are lots of settings which definitely need some time to get to know them.
> DTM with just some basic setting looked really good. I didn´t spend much time fine-tuning, but what i saw was really good.
> 
> So now i need to dive a bit deeper into settings i guess.


I watched a few YouTube reviews on the Radiance pro and the menus did seem somewhat cryptic. The competition has kicked it up a notch in terms of the OSD / usability for more novice users. I know Jim has priorities set for bit depth etc, but an overhaul of the OSD to help new users setup and tweak the Lumagen may go a long way ! And probably wouldn’t be that difficult to do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

docrog said:


> As I previously mentioned, having owned them both, the X700 is essentially the same spinner as the X800/X800M2 at $100 cheaper. One thing, though, in order for it to be source direct you would have to go to the settings menu and select the SD resolution for DVD because with the video resolution in "AUTO" DVD (SD) is output at 1080p (HD) when you defeat 4K upscaling on a 4K compatible display. In any case, it will be the Lumagen, rather than the Sony, making that final upscaling step to 4K.


How would you configure the x800 (or x700) to output standard BluRay at 1080p and UHD BluRay at 4K automatically (ie source direct )? This is what the Lumagen needs to do its own upscaling and eliminate the need to mess with settings depending on the disc you insert.


----------



## stefanop

blake said:


> I watched a few YouTube reviews on the Radiance pro and the menus did seem somewhat cryptic. The competition has kicked it up a notch in terms of the OSD / usability for more novice users. I know Jim has priorities set for bit depth etc, but an overhaul of the OSD to help new users setup and tweak the Lumagen may go a long way ! And probably wouldn’t be that difficult to do.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think so. It's functionality what they aim to, and its functionality is awsome. Resource spent in nice OSD is nonsense in pro-gear


----------



## docrog

blake said:


> How do you disable 4K upscaling with the Sony ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Setup -> Screen Settings -> 4K Upscaling -> OFF


----------



## docrog

blake said:


> How would you configure the x800 (or x700) to output standard BluRay at 1080p and UHD BluRay at 4K automatically (ie source direct )? This is what the Lumagen needs to do its own upscaling and eliminate the need to mess with settings depending on the disc you insert.


I just answered your setup question. Note that for the Sony to output SOURCE DIRECT, the resolution would have to be set each time that you play a DVD (SD), otherwise (if the Sony output resolution is set to AUTO) the output will be in 1080p if you disable 4K upscaling. If you're OK with the quality of the Sony's upscaling SD -> HD you would then have the Lumagen upscaling HD -> UHD by leaving the Sony resolution in AUTO but disabling the 4K upscaling. Of course, this is irrelevant if you never play legacy DVD content.


----------



## LJG

I am having same issues as Thrang, white screens, green screens, blcak screens with Strato first generation, Shield Pro, Sony 5000ES. It got so bad I reverted back to previous software release.


----------



## SJHT

LJG said:


> I am having same issues as Thrang, white screens, green screens, blcak screens with Strato first generation, Shield Pro, Sony 5000ES. It got so bad I reverted back to previous software release.


Send a note to support. They sent me a firmware that had all the new features of the latest, BUT the HDMI input firmware from the previous one. Works for my Sony 995.... Or just wait for the fix... Maybe they should have a group of people who could test Sony projectors prior to their release if they don’t already do that. SJ


----------



## EVH78

LJG said:


> I am having same issues as Thrang, white screens, green screens, blcak screens with Strato first generation, Shield Pro, Sony 5000ES. It got so bad I reverted back to previous software release.


They sent me a newer firmware also but that did not help. Still green screens. Waiting for a fix.


----------



## A7mad78

For me as using barco balder CS every thing works fine for me in latest FW even some glitch before I had in apple tv till now gone and it’s truly one of the best FW and DTM ever since I join the lovely lumagen family late 2018 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vinturbo

Gianluca Vignini said:


> *There could be a problem.*
> 
> Scenario :
> 
> 
> DTM is active
> Playing the european version of the Bluray _Star Trek - The future begins_ (2009) [ Star Trek (film) - Wikipedia ] with my Oppo 203
> The MaxCLL is wrongly indicated as "Zero" in the disc's metadata
> This PRO's setting is involved : HDR Setup > Max Default (Default HDR Src MaxCLL)
> 
> View attachment 3028341
> 
> 
> This setting should be (*currently not active*) and it defaults to 4000 nits
> While watching it's clear the movie doesn't look fine (way too dark) so I decide to check the Default HDR Src MaxCLL although it should not change anything since it's (*currently not active*). However the pictures changes and gets sensibly better while moving from 4000 to 1000 nits and that proves the setting *is actually active*.
> Then a tried the same Max Default (Default HDR Src MaxCLL) setting with a disc reporting a MaxCLL value (different from Zero) and the setting is confirmed to be *inactive*.
> _I thought the latest iterations of the DTM skipped the metadata-stored MaxCLL value in favor of its own analysis and interpretation, was I wrong? The above-mentioned experience makes me think anything is not working as it should_
> 
> *Thanks!*


I do agree.

I verified the same conditions that mislead the PRO.

It’d be appropriate the development team to comment about that.

@jrp *could you please enlighten us?*

Thanks!


----------



## raheaps

I have an issue with auto switching when an HDR source is present or rather when the HDR source is no longer present. My video chain has three input devices in the Oppo 203, Roku and Tivo Edge which feed the Lumagen Rad. Pro 4242 and in turn goes to JVC RS2000. The auto switching works perfectly on the Oppo and Roku sources and the the projector will switch back and forth depending on the what’s playing. The Tivo Edge however will immediately switch the projector to HDR coming from another source that’s non HDR. If I override it manually on the projector it stays in Natural mode. The Projector will auto switch to HDR but not out for Tivo. The Rad Pro shows input of 1080 and output of 2160p for the Tivo. Any suggestions to get the auto switching working for Tivo? Thanks.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

Vinturbo said:


> I do agree.
> 
> I verified the same conditions that mislead the PRO.
> 
> It’d be appropriate the development team to comment about that.
> 
> @jrp *could you please enlighten us?*
> 
> Thanks!


Oh yes Vinturbo, let's wait for @jrp 's reply.

Then, since I've been asked : I'm using a PRO 4444 with latest microwave caps motherboard and latest microwave caps IN/OUT boards + latest firmware


----------



## docrog

Gianluca Vignini said:


> Oh yes Vinturbo, let's wait for @jrp 's reply.
> 
> Then, since I've been asked : I'm using a PRO 4444 with latest microwave caps motherboard and latest microwave caps IN/OUT boards + latest firmware


Could someone explain the added value of "latest microwave caps" on IC boards and at what point they were added to Radiance Pro production units? Thanks!


----------



## llang269

Yea I’m having a lot of issues also lg C7 wit’s Apple TV, Strato and Directv


----------



## Kris Deering

I urge anyone and everyone that has an issue to email [email protected]. This forum is NOT A SUPPORT FORUM, it is a users forum. No issue at all discussing problems here, but if you want Lumagen to troubleshoot your issues, you need to reach out to support so they can follow up and try and get all the necessary information.


----------



## feelthesound

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Absolutely agree on this.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know this relates to VW5000ES and older generations of projectors of Sony, as in regards VW760ES and VW870ES they should have 10 bit processing chips.


Do you have a proof about what you, and Arrow, said ?

The 5000 doesn’t look like to process at 8 bits in 4k 4/4/4 at 24hz (at 60hz yes and it’s normal).

What was your test protocol for see that and what year? Because maybe it was an old firmware.

Even for the 870/760, how can you said he don’t process 12bits? How did you control that?


----------



## bobof

bobof said:


> I'm referring to some specific test content I have (I think a version of it will appear on the revised UHD disc from Spears & Munsil when it comes out, I was discussing it back and forward with @sspears a while back, he sent me some initial versions) where the pixel data in the image is *higher* than the declared MaxCLL. DTM is usually dealing with the fact that the per-title MaxCLL is a poor indicator of the "scene MaxCLL", because one bright pixel somewhere in the movie sets the MaxCLL for the whole disc; the case where content pixel data is higher than declared MaxCLL is a bit unusual, and would usually be from a bad mastering or a defective player (as the way MaxCLL should be calculated for a title is set out in the standards). It is actually quite legitimate per my recollection not to output MaxCLL data at all if you choose.
> 
> I >think< the way the Radiance works is that it uses the maxCLL if present as broadly a "ceiling" to work to, but then calculates lower (content based) MaxCLLs for the tone mapping on a scene by scene basis. Clearly that would be a strategy that would be vulnerable though to a player outputting fixed 1000 nit metadata if the title had content above 1000 nits.
> 
> Anyway, it would be interesting to hear how it works, I'm just going off my "observed behaviour" using some test content I have.  It might have even changed in recent times with the desaturation work.


Just to follow up on this for anyone who was interested; I can see that with desat set to Low it appears to behave as I recall from testing before - ie the disc metadata does make a difference to the result on screen with identical pixel data - at least in the case where the disc metadata says MaxCLL is lower than the actual content pixels.

I can't quite figure out exactly how Auto works; I don't get the same results each time I show the test images; I figure it is dynamically adjusting parameters based on what it thinks makes sense and so the context each image is shown in changes based on the order the images display in. 

The above are just observation and not complaint, to be clear!


----------



## ARROW-AV

feelthesound said:


> *Do you have a proof about what you, and Arrow, said ?*
> 
> The 5000 doesn’t look like to process at 8 bits in 4k 4/4/4 at 24hz (at 60hz yes and it’s normal).
> 
> What was your test protocol for see that and what year? Because maybe it was an old firmware.
> 
> Even for the 870/760, how can you said he don’t process 12bits? How did you control that?


Proof is not necessary... this has been confirmed by Sony themselves. It was even mentioned during the presentations carried out by Sony regarding the new flagship Sony GTZ380 / 8000ES wherein Sony mentioned that a benefit of the new projector is that this issue has been resolved and that the new projector reportedly properly supports 10-bit color throughout, unlike the 5000ES. This fact is also well known by AV professionals, in particular professional video calibrators. This is the reason why it is afflicted by banding/posterization.


----------



## feelthesound

So when i do my test at 4k dci 4/4/4 24hz at 10bits , what I see Is an illusion? Do you have any proof?
Or maybe you speak about 4k 60hz?

I do calibration since 10 years, I have a 870 and 5000, I can show you they are no difference into the internal process between this 2 models And he don’t downgrade at 8bits.

If what you said is true, is like Sony lied since 5 years at all consumers.


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*FW 080420*
_Posted 081720_ 
This is the same as 080120 but we've regenerated the fpga part of the update which may have been an issue in some systems. 
If you had issues with 080120 and give this version a try please let us know if this update does or doesn't clear things up for you. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## jrp

We posted 080420 today. This is the same as the 080120 release some are having trouble. After thinking this might be the new 18 GHz input microcode, we now believe the issue was an FPGA load that not all FPGAs liked. The only difference between 080120 and 080420 is that 080420 has a new FPGA that the synthesis tools reports is better than the FPGA load in 080120.

If you get a chance please try 080420. If 080120 has issues in your system we believe this should resolve any issues related to the release. If you still have issues, please contact lumagen.com support by email or phone (503-574-2211 Option 1). It might be something not related to the release. We already have one person who's issue was that an HDMI cable got bumped during the update and reinserting the cable resolved the issues. I can help you with debug to see if the issue is release related or general system issues (which are themselves almost always HDMI cabling issues).


----------



## ARROW-AV

feelthesound said:


> So when i do my test at 4k dci 4/4/4 24hz at 10bits , what I see Is an illusion? Do you have any proof?
> Or maybe you speak about 4k 60hz?
> 
> I do calibration since 10 years, I have a 870 and 5000, I can show you they are no difference into the internal process between this 2 models And he don’t downgrade at 8bits.
> 
> If what you said is true, is like Sony lied since 5 years at all consumers.
> 
> View attachment 3028963


This is the Lumagen Radiance Pro thread... If you wish to discuss Sony projectors further then let's please take the conversation to PM as this is completely off topic with respect to this thread. I am very happy to continue the conversation there. OK? 🙂


----------



## jrp

raheaps said:


> I have an issue with auto switching when an HDR source is present or rather when the HDR source is no longer present. My video chain has three input devices in the Oppo 203, Roku and Tivo Edge which feed the Lumagen Rad. Pro 4242 and in turn goes to JVC RS2000. The auto switching works perfectly on the Oppo and Roku sources and the the projector will switch back and forth depending on the what’s playing. The Tivo Edge however will immediately switch the projector to HDR coming from another source that’s non HDR. If I override it manually on the projector it stays in Natural mode. The Projector will auto switch to HDR but not out for Tivo. The Rad Pro shows input of 1080 and output of 2160p for the Tivo. Any suggestions to get the auto switching working for Tivo? Thanks.


I talked to raheaps. It appears that the 4k TiVO always send the HDMI HDR Info Frame flag if the TiVO HDR mode is set to "Auto." So the Pro is happily obliging and going into HDR source mode. The only way we found to not have the HDR flag output from the 4k TiVO was to set HDR mode = Off. Then it correctly sends "SDR 709" for SDR sources. 

This of course has the downside of not allowing the TiVO to output HDR, but raheaps said that was fine for his usage since he does not use teh TiVO very much for HDR content.

If you have a 4k TiVO check this out, and report to TiVO that they are reporting HDR10 when they should not with the HDR mode set to Auto.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> We posted 080420 today. This is the same as the 080120 release some are having trouble. After thinking this might be the new 18 GHz input microcode, we now believe the issue was an FPGA load that not all FPGAs liked. The only difference between 080120 and 080420 is that 080420 has a new FPGA that the synthesis tools reports is better than the FPGA load in 080120.
> 
> If you get a chance please try 080420. If 080120 has issues in your system we believe this should resolve any issues related to the release. If you still have issues, please contact lumagen.com support by email or phone (503-574-2211 Option 1). It might be something not related to the release. We already have one person who's issue was that an HDMI cable got bumped during the update and reinserting the cable resolved the issues. I can help you with debug to see if the issue is release related or general system issues (which are themselves almost always HDMI cabling issues).


In my case I don’t have an issue with 080120 do I need to upgrade to 080420 or is it ok to stuck with the 120 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## riddle

Hi this * 080420 *looks fix my problem... realy thanks


----------



## bobof

bobof said:


> For what it is worth the last public release worked fine on my system; JVC DLA-X7900, Oppo-clone, Shield 2019 and AppleTV, NAD T758V3. All 18G cards throughout on a 4242.


Is still working great in my system it seems with today's update. Hope if fixes issues for the rest of you.


----------



## jrp

A comment on the reported MaxCLL being used for DTM:

I thought the MaxCLL from the source was no longer used for DTM at all. We have discussed removing the reported MaxCLL from all DTM calculation since it is often wrong. However, when I checked with Patrick, he said it is still used in a very limited way to limit the maximum DTM will allow the "calculated scene MaxCLL" to be. So it is used for DTM, but in a way not often affecting scenes.

If you have a movie that stupidly reports its HDR10 MaxCLL = 0, then the Radiance Pro DTM uses the "Default Max." This is currently 4000 by default, but the users can change the value. If you know, for example, that a movie that reports MaxCLL = 0 but was mastered to a true MaxCLL of 1000, you can change the Tone Mapping "Max Default" setting to 1000. However, note that this is not the correct way to try to get more light from a movie.

In general you should change "Max Light" to provide reasonable light levels for movies. If you are watching a movie and it looks too dark, then this generally means you have the active CMS' Max Light set too high for your projector. I am using Max Light = four times measured Max Light.

Also, producers are making HDR movie "dark scenes" darker than in SDR movies in many cases, because they can. As I have mentioned elsewhere 1/3 of the entire 10-bit HDR range is for black and barely above black. SDR has limits in precision near black, which often leads to compression artifacts. HDR has great precision near black, and some producers like to use this very dark range. It is often not a case that the movie is "too dark," but instead it is a case of "I don't like how dark the producers made this movie." A case in point is Game Of Thrones Session 8 Episode 3. The night battles are way dark. The only thing that kept me from raising the brightness was knowing I had a great calibration for our Lumagen Demo Theater JVC RS4500. I realized the producers intended the scenes to be very dark. After I got over thinking it a mistake, the darkness added to the immersion I felt watching this episode.


----------



## jrp

A7mad78 said:


> In my case I don’t have an issue with 080120. Do I need to upgrade to 080420 or is it okay to stick with the 080120


The only change between 080120 and 080420 is for the FPGA load. Both 080120 and 080420 work fine in our test systems. There is no benefit to you updating to 080420, since 080120 works.

The only benefit for Lumagen is we would know your systems works well with both. Early voting is in and 080420 has fixed the few with issues with 080120 that have reported back, and has not broken any that worked with 080120.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Guys - Can someone post the steps to merge AR please!
I want to merge 2:35 to 2:40 I have a DCR Lens ...
So whenever Lumagen detects 2:35 it should expand it to 2:40!! In all sources.
Will appreciate the steps.


----------



## SJHT

Newest firmware solved my issues with my Sony 995 and Strato. Thanks!


----------



## docrog

In the new firmware dSat defaults to "Auto" which overwrites my previous saved value. Will the other HDR/DTM values (dPad, Ratio, Shape, Tran) also have been overwritten? I'm currently unable to find my data sheet indicating what those prior saved values were. Also, it seems to me that the sync time (when changing among resolutions & color space) is slower than with the firmware installed prior to the August update. Has anyone else found that to be true? Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> In the new firmware dSat defaults to "Auto" which overwrites my previous saved value. Will the other HDR/DTM values (dPad, Ratio, Shape, Tran) also have been overwritten? I'm currently unable to find my data sheet indicating what those prior saved values were. Also, it seems to me that the sync time (when changing among resolutions & color space) is slower than with the firmware installed prior to the August update. Has anyone else found that to be true? Thanks!


It will NOT override the previous settings for DTM, it only overrides the DSAT because the settings from before don't exist. I haven't seen any reduction in switching on my end, but I didn't do any timed comparisons.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> It will NOT override the previous settings for DTM, it only overrides the DSAT because the settings from before don't exist. I haven't seen any reduction in switching on my end, but I didn't do any timed comparisons.


Much appreciated, as always, Kris.


----------



## docrog

I'm posting this for information sake and not as a request for support. My Radiance Pro 4240 had been operationally flawless since being purchased in January of this year. I successfully downloaded v080120 several days ago and everything was running smoothly (at least 10 hours of viewed content) until last night when a green screen appeared after switching the video source; no HDMI cables (or other source) had been touched. Powering off/on via standby did not fix the problem and the NX7 failed to sync with any video source via the 4240. Everything worked appropriately when bypassing the 4240. Today I initially unplugged the 4240 and, again, it was working properly while watching HDR content on my ATV4K, but switching to my SD TiVo Bolt caused a blank dark gray screen which did not change when I switched back to the ATV4K. I could hear the NX7 trying to sync, but it only successfully re-synced to the 4240 after changing the NX7's input from #1 (4240) to #2 and back to #1 again. I don't have a Strato or any other NAS. I will update to the most recent patch version and hopefully won't have to reload v.042820 (which had been rock solid in its stability).


----------



## dlinsley

I think this is likely another manifestation of the 080120 FPGA synthesis issue. I had similar behavior with my JVC RS3000 last night, and had to move the video cable to a 9G port to get a picture after switching inputs. Turning off an on didn't help, and the family didn't want to wait for an update flash. I updated to 080420 this morning, and it has been solid on 18G again.


----------



## EVH78

FW 080420 solved all green screen issues in my setup also.


----------



## EVH78

Darbee 4K hitting the market in 2021:



http://www.darbeevision.com



I wonder if it could be implemented into existing radiance pros? I would definitely pay a fee for a programmable solution!


----------



## sjschaff

Seeing the same green screen issue. Will run the most recent update.


----------



## docrog

EVH78 said:


> Darbee 4K hitting the market in 2021:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.darbeevision.com
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if it could be implemented into existing radiance pros? I would definitely pay a fee for a programmable solution!


They're being very guarded at the moment with regards to what benefits are to be expected. But, at that reasonable price, it would be interesting to see what difference it would make for UHD material or if it would offer any improvement over Lumagen's current Darbee capabilities for SD & HD content when in the video chain after the Radiance Pro.


----------



## LJG

LJG said:


> I am having same issues as Thrang, white screens, green screens, blcak screens with Strato first generation, Shield Pro, Sony 5000ES. It got so bad I reverted back to previous software release.


Latest software update fixed this issue all good now!!!


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I'm posting this for information sake and not as a request for support. My Radiance Pro 4240 had been operationally flawless since being purchased in January of this year. I successfully downloaded v080120 several days ago and everything was running smoothly (at least 10 hours of viewed content) until last night when a green screen appeared after switching the video source; no HDMI cables (or other source) had been touched. Powering off/on via standby did not fix the problem and the NX7 failed to sync with any video source via the 4240. Everything worked appropriately when bypassing the 4240. Today I initially unplugged the 4240 and, again, it was working properly while watching HDR content on my ATV4K, but switching to my SD TiVo Bolt caused a blank dark gray screen which did not change when I switched back to the ATV4K. I could hear the NX7 trying to sync, but it only successfully re-synced to the 4240 after changing the NX7's input from #1 (4240) to #2 and back to #1 again. I don't have a Strato or any other NAS. I will update to the most recent patch version and hopefully won't have to reload v.042820 (which had been rock solid in its stability).


If you have a SD Tivo, you should make sure that input is setup appropriately for a SD source. There are HDMI settings that will help with EDID issues with older non 4K sources like that and will cut down on any HDMI related issues. Just FYI.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> If you have a SD Tivo, you should make sure that input is setup appropriately for a SD source. There are HDMI settings that will help with EDID issues with older non 4K sources like that and will cut down on any HDMI related issues. Just FYI.


Kris, thanks for that information, but my TiVo was appropriately configured as SDR when Craig set up the 4240 in late January. There had been ZERO issues until the new August firmware and I've just installed the patch. I'll be watching again later tonight and will be able to re-evaluate the 4240's FPGA stability at that time.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ash Sharma said:


> Guys - Can someone post the steps to merge AR please!
> I want to merge 2:35 to 2:40 I have a DCR Lens ...
> So whenever Lumagen detects 2:35 it should expand it to 2:40!! In all sources.
> Will appreciate the steps.


Hate to quote myself.... but called Jim Peterson and he graciously helped.
Will be setting 2:35 to merge to 2:40 and 1:78 to merge to 1:85
Only 4 AR to mess around with 1:33 (which I never use - 1:79/1:85 - 2:0 and 2:35/2:40


----------



## bjorg

Tried downloading the latest firmware, but got _Virus Detected_ warning on Windows 10. It's probably a false positive, but wanted to share it here:


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro080420.zip


----------



## docrog

So far, so good with the stability of the recent firmware patch: no green or gray screens. Sync time seems a little longer than with April version. I hope that I haven't jinxed myself by proclaiming "victory" too soon...........


----------



## fatherom

bjorg said:


> Tried downloading the latest firmware, but got _Virus Detected_ warning on Windows 10. It's probably a false positive, but wanted to share it here:
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro080420.zip


I'm getting this too...and Windows is saying the Virus classification is "severe". I'm using basic Windows Defender virus protection (nothing fancy).


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

fatherom said:


> I'm getting this too...and Windows is saying the Virus classification is "severe". I'm using basic Windows Defender virus protection (nothing fancy).


I get the standard "Windows protected the PC" message to be careful in downloading non-Windows store software, that's all. If that's what you saw that's standard with non-Windows store software, not an anti-virus message.


----------



## fatherom

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I get the standard "Windows protected the PC" message to be careful in downloading non-Windows store software, that's all. If that's what you saw that's standard with non-Windows store software, not an anti-virus message.


No, I'm not doing anything with the Windows Store. I have all that stuff turned off on my box (can't stand it).

I went into the virus manager and looked at the quarantined threat...it's pointing to the zip file that I tried to download from lumagen. No other firmware update zip file from lumagen has ever done this before.


----------



## dlinsley

bjorg said:


> Tried downloading the latest firmware, but got _Virus Detected_ warning on Windows 10. It's probably a false positive, but wanted to share it here:
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro080420.zip


I also get the same warning when downloading it again - I did not when I downloaded it a few days ago. They have the same sha256 hash (i.e. they are identical), so it could be a bug with the latest malware signature package given it says what it flags has been known since 2016. I opened a bug via the Windows 10 Feedback Hub app, but I work at Microsoft and so my feedback entries aren't publicly accessible to share the link for upvoting/commenting.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I get the standard "Windows protected the PC" message to be careful in downloading non-Windows store software, that's all. If that's what you saw that's standard with non-Windows store software, not an anti-virus message.


I don't use the Windows Anti-Virus, I use McAfee which comes free with my Cox internet. Sounds like this virus warning comes when you are using the Windows Anti-Virus.


----------



## fatherom

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> I don't use the Windows Anti-Virus, I use McAfee which comes free with my Cox internet. Sounds like this virus warning comes when you are using the Windows Anti-Virus.


Nope...my work computer flagged it too and it's using a corporate virus scanner.


----------



## docrog

I have had the warnings when downloading the Lumagen firmware updates but instructed W10 to disregard. Subsequent scans for virus activity have not shown any irregularities associated with these files.


----------



## dlinsley

Defender no longer flags the 080420 update. Go to Windows Update or Virus & Threat Protection settings to update to Security Intelligence Version 1.321.1815.0.

(Note: I work at Microsoft, but not in the Defender team)


----------



## bjorg

w00t! That's awesome. Thanks!


----------



## Craig Peer

dlinsley said:


> Defender no longer flags the 080420 update. Go to Windows Update or Virus & Threat Protection settings to update to Security Intelligence Version 1.321.1815.0.
> 
> (Note: I work at Microsoft, but not in the Defender team)


I get a warning when opening the firmware to install on the Radiance Pro. I just override it.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> So far, so good with the stability of the recent firmware patch: no green or gray screens. Sync time seems a little longer than with April version. I hope that I haven't jinxed myself by proclaiming "victory" too soon...........


*080420- Posted 081720* - this has improved switching and stability for sure.


----------



## ShaharT

Not pretty. Runnig Virus-Total on the latest firmware file looks














udgly. And that's _afrer_ I ran it on my pc.
For those who don't know virustotal - it's the mot comprehensive way to check individual files. Screenshot attached.


----------



## Craig Peer

There are no virus / malware on mine. My firmware downloads get scanned on the way in, and I just scanned it again.


----------



## jrp

My PC scans the updates as they download using McAfee. I have never had McAfee detect a virus on any Radiance or Radiance Pro update. It scans the .EXE in the .ZIP before putting it on the PC. I have had McAfee catch virus issues and prevent a file from even getting put on my PC, so it seems effective. I just download the 080420 update again and no virus was found by McAfee when it downloaded. I then scanned the file explicitly and again no virus was found.

The .EXE is created by the Microsoft C compiler, and the binary .EXE put up on the Lumagen website. Someone would have to be able to hack into our ISP to hack on the updater code. Not impossible but so far to the best of our knowledge this has never happened.

It is possible that if you download through an intermediary, that an intermediary could maliciously tweak the code to add a virus. So I think if you detect a virus on the update, that you should reconsider your ISP connection.

I checked the web and there is debate if virustotal.com is legit, or if it randomly reports a non-existent virus for whatever reason they might have. I have no idea either way but personally I trust McAfee is correct and there is no virus in the updates on the Lumagen website.

Of course everyone needs to use their own judgement, and should scan any EXE with a known good virus scanner (such as McAfee or Norton) before running it if they suspect a virus.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> My PC scans the updates as they download using McAfee. I have never had McAfee detect a virus on any Radiance or Radiance Pro update. It scans the .EXE in the .ZIP before putting it on the PC. I have had McAfee catch virus issues and prevent a file from even getting put on my PC, so it seems effective. I just download the 080420 update again and no virus was found by McAfee when it downloaded. I then scanned the file explicitly and again no virus was found.
> 
> The .EXE is created by the Microsoft C compiler, and the binary .EXE put up on the Lumagen website. Someone would have to be able to hack into our ISP to hack on the updater code. Not impossible but so far to the best of our knowledge this has never happened.
> 
> It is possible that if you download through an intermediary, that an intermediary could maliciously tweak the code to add a virus. So I think if you detect a virus on the update, that you should reconsider your ISP connection.
> 
> I checked the web and there is debate if virustotal.com is legit, or if it randomly reports a non-existent virus for whatever reason they might have. I have no idea either way but personally I trust McAfee is correct and there is no virus in the updates on the Lumagen website.
> 
> Of course everyone needs to use their own judgement, and should scan any EXE with a known good virus scanner (such as McAfee or Norton) before running it if they suspect a virus.


Thank you @jrp. 
Aa you don't release fw updates very often (by this I mean an extra step in your process wouldn't take too much of your time), my suggestion for you would be to add as a step a quick scan using the free VirusTotal

It's so good, that many top tier security researchers and anti=virus companies use it themselves. 
Basically that site runs multiple highly updated anti-viruses scans against an .exe or .zip file you upload through their easy to use web interface.; You get back a very reliable risk score.
Highly reliable and highly recommended service for scanning one-off files you plan to send to a wide, trusting list of people. 

I give very low chance someone attem[ted a 'water hole' attack against Lumagen customers by specifically hacking into your network and your compilation process, or hacked into where you host the firmware binaries (harder, but can be done as well). 

And all this with the sole intent of infecting Lumagen customers with ransomware. 
Although stranger things have happened, and this scenario of waterhole attacks has happened, for example to ccleaner, where attackers managed to manipulate the actual source-code of their software pre-compilation (of course without the knowledge of that company employees),, causing mass infection by the large trusting install-base of the company. The target of that wide attack turned out to be a few very specific individuals out of the hundreds of thousands of infected pcs.I 

Hackers, especially government based, have limitless power and limitless imagination!


----------



## Die Zwei

Hi,
i´m pretty sure it´s just because the EXE-file is not signed. It says "unknown publisher". For many security applications, that´s enough to rate it as "malicious".
Lumagen should consider to sign their EXEs to prevent this in the future => https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45403165/how-to-set-publisher-on-exe-file


----------



## danam

Scanned it using BitDefender and Malwarebytes and nothing detected.


----------



## sor

jrp said:


> My PC scans the updates as they download using McAfee. I have never had McAfee detect a virus on any Radiance or Radiance Pro update. It scans the .EXE in the .ZIP before putting it on the PC. I have had McAfee catch virus issues and prevent a file from even getting put on my PC, so it seems effective. I just download the 080420 update again and no virus was found by McAfee when it downloaded. I then scanned the file explicitly and again no virus was found.
> 
> The .EXE is created by the Microsoft C compiler, and the binary .EXE put up on the Lumagen website. Someone would have to be able to hack into our ISP to hack on the updater code. Not impossible but so far to the best of our knowledge this has never happened.
> 
> It is possible that if you download through an intermediary, that an intermediary could maliciously tweak the code to add a virus. So I think if you detect a virus on the update, that you should reconsider your ISP connection.
> 
> I checked the web and there is debate if virustotal.com is legit, or if it randomly reports a non-existent virus for whatever reason they might have. I have no idea either way but personally I trust McAfee is correct and there is no virus in the updates on the Lumagen website.
> 
> Of course everyone needs to use their own judgement, and should scan any EXE with a known good virus scanner (such as McAfee or Norton) before running it if they suspect a virus.


Might also consider making the site HTTPS. If it had a certificate then that drastically increases the work someone would have to do in order to middle-man the download or inject content into a customer’s view of your website.

Even a free-tier trusted certificate authority like Let's Encrypt - Free SSL/TLS Certificates would provide good protection with little hassle. I installed it on my server and set HTTP to redirect to HTTPS automatically, it’s been running for years and automatically refreshes certificates.


----------



## crg28

Guys, it has been almost 9 months since I have been here. Kudos to Kris Deering! I have been enjoying my Radiance Pro installed by Kris Deering back in December! I have been in love with my RS2000 Picture w the Radiance Pro. Covid has really pushed my household usage of the RS2000! I believe we have already had 800 hours+ in 8 months. It might be time for another calibration.

I just wanted to ask if there has been any new updates that someone that has had the radiance pro installed in Dec 19 needs to know about? I mainly use a KScape Strato, AppleTV and DirectTV as sources. Any news on the PIP feature from the Lumagen?


----------



## blake

Any inside information (or guesses !) on what JVC may be planning with the new firmware they teased for NX5/7/9 - apparently supposed to improve their DTM ? Will this get it on par with the Lumagen ? We will see - 2-3 months away. 

I think JVC is seeing what the competition (Lumagen, MadVR) is doing with DTM and trying to keep up !


----------



## Kris Deering

crg28 said:


> Guys, it has been almost 9 months since I have been here. Kudos to Kris Deering! I have been enjoying my Radiance Pro installed by Kris Deering back in December! I have been in love with my RS2000 Picture w the Radiance Pro. Covid has really pushed my household usage of the RS2000! I believe we have already had 800 hours+ in 8 months. It might be time for another calibration.
> 
> I just wanted to ask if there has been any new updates that someone that has had the radiance pro installed in Dec 19 needs to know about? I mainly use a KScape Strato, AppleTV and DirectTV as sources. Any news on the PIP feature from the Lumagen?


You DEFINITELY want to update to the latest firmware. Reach out to me and I can help!


----------



## picree

New HDMI microcode question: there have been a couple of microcode updates. Does "menu 0850" still take you back to the original microcode that shipped with the Lumagen or just the prior version? And does "menu 0851" take you to the most recent version you updated to or is there a "menu 0852" to get you to the latest version? Lastly in the Lumagen status menu what does the "1" in "18Ghz:YYY:YY,1" mean? Latest version or what?


----------



## bobof

As far as I know the recent microcode updates are for the input cards; and the MENU 0850/0851 commands only switch the output microcode version. There is no equivalent feature for the input microcode; the firmware update flashes the input cards on first power cycle to whichever input microcode is included.


----------



## Kris Deering

picree said:


> New HDMI microcode question: there have been a couple of microcode updates. Does "menu 0850" still take you back to the original microcode that shipped with the Lumagen or just the prior version? And does "menu 0851" take you to the most recent version you updated to or is there a "menu 0852" to get you to the latest version? Lastly in the Lumagen status menu what does the "1" in "18Ghz:YYY:YY,1" mean? Latest version or what?


As Bobof said, I think the menu code applies to the output only, which wasn't what was changed recently. The 1 means you are using the latest release of the output microcode. There have been two recent input card microcode updates. The first resolved the audio dropout from the ATV4K with its wonky way of handling Dolby Vision metadata. The other was an update from the vendor that was for stability, but had its own issues.


----------



## audioguy

Nice recent review of the Lumagen Radiance Pro:

*The best projector image improvement there is - The Lumagen Radiance Pro*


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> Nice recent review of the Lumagen Radiance Pro:
> 
> *The best projector image improvement there is - The Lumagen Radiance Pro*


Thanks for providing that link. One question: they make reference to the Radiance Pro accepting a Dolby Vision signal and converting it to HDR10. If that's actually the case, would there be an improvement by having the UHD player output as DV, rather than HDR10? Since projectors aren't currently able to handle DV, is it even possible to force the UHD source as DV?


----------



## bjorg

First time owner. I'm familiarizing myself with my Radiance Pro on my TV before it goes into my home cinema. One thing I noticed with connecting the Apple TV 4K to it, is that the Apple device does not emit the native resolution of the source material. It has options to match frame rate and color depth, but not resolution. That means for source material in HD/SD, the content is upscaled by the Apple TV instead of the Radiance Pro. Additionally, I can't use features like Darbee on low-resolution content.

One of my primary sources is Plex. Any suggestions on what would make a great Plex source device for the Radiance Pro?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

DOCROG

I heard the bit where they said it takes in DV. However, it doesn't. I've looked at DV direct to an 8K display v HDR10 through the Pro's DTM and the Pro looked better though...I think they just miss-spoke and meant to say that HDR10 on Lumagen has superior capabilities to the per frame or scene metadata of DV


----------



## OzHDHT

audioguy said:


> Nice recent review of the Lumagen Radiance Pro:
> 
> *The best projector image improvement there is - The Lumagen Radiance Pro*


Good little video by couple of HT guys in Western Aus . I answered a few items in the comments and suggest people come here if they want further info and advice.


----------



## Die Zwei

bjorg said:


> Any suggestions on what would make a great Plex source device for the Radiance Pro?


Shield with Kodi and Plex Addon. Haven´t tried it but AFAIR the Plex app itself does it on the Shield as well.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks for providing that link. One question: they make reference to the Radiance Pro accepting a Dolby Vision signal and converting it to HDR10. If that's actually the case, would there be an improvement by having the UHD player output as DV, rather than HDR10? Since projectors aren't currently able to handle DV, is it even possible to force the UHD source as DV?


There are a few instances of loose language and errors during that video, and this is one:





The Lumagen doesn't do anything (useful) with Dolby Vision sources. You could perhaps hack something together with the 3DLUT capability and DV Low Latency, but you'd need an additional HDfury device as the Lumagen won't directly output any EDIDs to the source that declare DV capability.

I think judging from what he said a few moments before he was perhaps more meaning to indicate that you got Dolby Vision-like functionality "you don't got Dolby Vision - with this, you sorta kinda do (chuckle"). 



But it certainly didn't come out that way later


----------



## audioguy

bjorg said:


> One of my primary sources is Plex. Any suggestions on what would make a great Plex source device for the Radiance Pro?


I run the Plex server on my Synology NAS and the Plex client (not part of Kodi) on my Nvidia Shield. Works like a charm.


----------



## sor

audioguy said:


> I run the Plex server on my Synology NAS and the Plex client (not part of Kodi) on my Nvidia Shield. Works like a charm.


Does the Shield switch its output resolution to match the Plex video? I don’t think I’ve seen that happen but I haven’t really played with the settings.


----------



## audioguy

You can have the Shield/Plex either match the resolution of the source or up convert. I have an external video pocessor so I chose to match the source.


----------



## ShaharT

sor said:


> Does the Shield switch its output resolution to match the Plex video? I don’t think I’ve seen that happen but I haven’t really played with the settings.


That's one thing I'm so interested about. There's a weird app that requires changing some debug settings in the Nvidia and then it always runs in the background and auto detects the resolution of what's playing and changes to that. Did not work well at all on my Nvidia. Too much of a hack and not stable enough. 

I'm yet to find a great streamer that also has pure source direct mode, so the lumagen will do all the heavy lifting magic. 

If there is such a player please do share.


----------



## ShaharT

audioguy said:


> You can have the Shield/Plex either match the resolution of the source or up convert. I have an external video pocessor so I chose to match the source.


How did you manage to do that? And I guess it only applies to ripped movies and not the streaming apps like Netflix?


----------



## audioguy

ShaharT said:


> How did you manage to do that? And I guess it only applies to ripped movies and not the streaming apps like Netflix?


I don't use the Shield for anything but ripped movies via Plex and watching YouTube TV.


----------



## ShaharT

audioguy said:


> I don't use the Shield for anything but ripped movies via Plex and watching YouTube TV.


Cool, got it. Did you find a player that runs streaming apps and has full source direct capability?


----------



## docrog

bjorg said:


> First time owner. I'm familiarizing myself with my Radiance Pro on my TV before it goes into my home cinema. One thing I noticed with connecting the Apple TV 4K to it, is that the Apple device does not emit the native resolution of the source material. It has options to match frame rate and color depth, but not resolution. That means for source material in HD/SD, the content is upscaled by the Apple TV instead of the Radiance Pro. Additionally, I can't use features like Darbee on low-resolution content.
> 
> One of my primary sources is Plex. Any suggestions on what would make a great Plex source device for the Radiance Pro?


An inelegant option would be for you to change the output resolution on the ATV4K to 1080p each time that you're watching a non-UHD source.


----------



## wjchan

docrog said:


> An inelegant option would be for you to change the output resolution on the ATV4K to 1080p each time that you're watching a non-UHD source.


I remember someone talking about changing the input EDIDs of a memory (MEM B, for example) to show only up to 1080p. If you select that memory setting, the ATV4K will think it's connected to a sink that's capable up to 1080p.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> An inelegant option would be for you to change the output resolution on the ATV4K to 1080p each time that you're watching a non-UHD source.


Or even worse, you could have a separate ATV that is setup to 1080p only. This is the reality of things right now though. So many sources are not giving you the option of a source direct output. This applies to streaming devices and Blu-ray players as well. There are only a couple players being sold today that offer a source direct function. Even a lot of cable boxes are locked at some output resolution. It is going to become more and more difficult to take advantage of the scaling functionality of video processors. There are still scaling benefits for A-lenses, aspect ratio control and more, but upscaling content is going to continue to be more and more difficult. This makes sense from a CE product design standpoint. A single output resolution makes for a more streamlined experience since the display won't continuously see changes to the input resolution and have signal drops.


----------



## sor

This may become more prevalent as HDMI 2.1 is adopted. The current reality is that switching resolution causes a long pause and blank screen during resync, when that goes away with Quick Media Switching maybe we will see more options.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Hello,

I just stumbled on an interesting Review I think many of you will like.
As you will see below this a really-really New-Review guys.










*Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ 4K Video Processor Review
By Dylan Seeger | August 24, 2020 









Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ 4K Video Processor Review - HomeTheaterReview


Dylan says the Radiance Pro is definitely a niche product, but one that has the potential to adapt video to fit the performance capabilities of your projector in a way that no other processing solution currently can.




hometheaterreview.com




*
Terry


----------



## dlinsley

wjchan said:


> I remember someone talking about changing the input EDIDs of a memory (MEM B, for example) to show only up to 1080p. If you select that memory setting, the ATV4K will think it's connected to a sink that's capable up to 1080p.





Kris Deering said:


> Or even worse, you could have a separate ATV that is setup to 1080p only. This is the reality of things right now though.


Netflix have a number of shows now that are not 4k but are HDR. I thought I read the ATV won't output HDR if it doesn't see a full 18G-like EDID, and so even multiple ATVs cannot be configured for this case?


----------



## Mike Garrett

dlinsley said:


> Netflix have a number of shows now that are not 4k but are HDR. I thought I read the ATV won't output HDR if it doesn't see a full 18G-like EDID, and so even multiple ATVs cannot be configured for this case?


What shows/movies?


----------



## feelthesound

Any news about the « 12 bits » updates ? Jim?


----------



## dlinsley

dlinsley said:


> Netflix have a number of shows now that are not 4k but are HDR. I thought I read the ATV won't output HDR if it doesn't see a full 18G-like EDID, and so even multiple ATVs cannot be configured for this case?





Mike Garrett said:


> What shows/movies?


Did they just drop the 4k tagging for HDR? Even Stranger Things now just shows the HDR tag on my Roku, but Angry Birds 2 shows as 4k Ultra HD and plays in Rec709.


----------



## Mike Garrett

dlinsley said:


> Did they just drop the 4k tagging for HDR? Even Stranger Things now just shows the HDR tag on my Roku, but Angry Birds 2 shows as 4k Ultra HD and plays in Rec709.


All the shows that list HDR are 4K. At least all that I have seen. A lot of shows are 4K, but not HDR, like the one you listed. Those should be played as Rec709.


----------



## docrog

Is there anybody who's playing LaserDisc content through the Radiance Pro? How _*terrible*_ does it looked on a PJ like the NX7 when output at 4K?


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> All the shows that list HDR are 4K. At least all that I have seen. A lot of shows are 4K, but not HDR, like the one you listed. Those should be played as Rec709.


Star trek was one notable example of HDR 1080p. Netflix made a bit of a hooharr at the time saying they thought HDR was more important than 1080p.


----------



## bobof

Here was the article I read way back that featured Star Trek Discovery Netflix Says HDR Trumps 4K - And Expects You To Pay More For It


----------



## bjorg

Thanks for the many responses. It doesn't sound like there is a clear winner for Plex Client. nVidia Shield comes close, but even then, it requires some tinkering to get it right, correct? (link?) I could play everything though an Oppo, but then I lose the Plex interface, which is very nice. I'd love to match the Plex experience to that of the Kaledescape system, which I love. However, if the Plex playback device cannot respect the source encoding, then the Radiance Pro is a bit gimped in helping out.

What source devices do you use/recommend for your Radiance Pro?


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> Star trek was one notable example of HDR 1080p. Netflix made a bit of a hooharr at the time *saying they thought HDR was more important than 1080p.*


And I would agree with that assessment at least as it applies in my room. Certainly 4K has some improvment over 1080P but with the improvement in scalers, (and at my viewing distance), the differences (depending on the source) can be pretty minimal if even noticeable at all. HDR (at least with Dynamic Tone Mapping) is (almost) always a large improvement over SDR - but again, depending on the source.

I saw a demo at a CEDIA a number of years ago where Sony (on a large flat panel) was converting SDR to HDR (don't ask me how). The improvements were dramatic. That might be an interesting feature for the Lumagen to incorporate.


----------



## audioguy

bjorg said:


> Thanks for the many responses. It doesn't sound like there is a clear winner for Plex Client. nVidia Shield comes close, but even then, it requires some tinkering to get it right, correct? (link?) I could play everything though an Oppo, but then I lose the Plex interface, which is very nice. I'd love to match the Plex experience to that of the Kaledescape system, which I love. However, if the Plex playback device cannot respect the source encoding, then the Radiance Pro is a bit gimped in helping out.
> 
> What source devices do you use/recommend for your Radiance Pro?


In my use there is no "tinkering" required. I have set it (Shield/Plex) to be source direct and that is exactly what it does. If you are only interested in playing ripped movies, the Zappiti Pro (and I suspect the other Zappiti players) will also play source direct.


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> In my use there is no "tinkering" required. I have set it (Shield/Plex) to be source direct and that is exactly what it does.


I must have misunderstood then. It sounded like it needed an app to sync framerate and someone mentioned the Kodi player. Are those not needed? Or needed for something else?


----------



## audioguy

I use no special app nor Kodi.


----------



## picree

Perhaps obvious question on Direct Output Code modes:

Example: MENU 0872 Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate,with rate match off.

Does this code mean that 4k23.987 or 4k24 will both be output at 4k24? And the same for 4k59.987/4k60 both output at 4k60?

And If I don't use the Direct Output Code command, and wanted a specific output (say 4k24 for 4k23.987 and 4k24 for 4k24) then I would have to send the LRP the relevant input rate and manually set the output?


----------



## SJHT

docrog said:


> Is there anybody who's playing LaserDisc content through the Radiance Pro? How _*terrible*_ does it looked on a PJ like the NX7 when output at 4K?


The Pro only has HDMI inputs (as well as PJs). Not sure how you would connect. Would be similar in quality to a 480i DVD?


----------



## docrog

SJHT said:


> The Pro only has HDMI inputs (as well as PJs). Not sure how you would connect. Would be similar in quality to a 480i DVD?


My (rock solid) video chain configuration has the Lumagen AFTER the AVR, so the AVR performs video source switching and the LaserDisc player's outputs are able to be accepted by the AVR. I haven't had my LaserDisc player in my HT for a decade but was interested in having some feedback regarding upscaling before going through the effort of re-integrating the Pioneer..........


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> Here was the article I read way back that featured Star Trek Discovery Netflix Says HDR Trumps 4K - And Expects You To Pay More For It


That was back in 2018. I am not aware of any shows now that are 1080P HDR, Are you?


----------



## jrp

picree said:


> Perhaps obvious question on Direct Output Code modes:
> 
> Example: MENU 0872 Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate,with rate match off.
> 
> Does this code mean that 4k23.987 or 4k24 will both be output at 4k24? And the same for 4k59.987/4k60 both output at 4k60?
> 
> And If I don't use the Direct Output Code command, and wanted a specific output (say 4k24 for 4k23.987 and 4k24 for 4k24) then I would have to send the LRP the relevant input rate and manually set the output?


Since the MENU 0873 (4k50 or 4k60, at 9 GHz), MENU 0874 (4k50 or 4k60, at 18 GHz), and MENU 0872 (add 4k24 output), are intended to set the output rate, and to help minimize output restarts, it turns "Rate Match" off by default. So 4k60 is at 59.94 Hertz, and 4k24 is 23.98 Hertz. Since almost all content in the USA is 59.94, or 23.97, this means that a 24.00, or 60.00, OSD will not cause a restart on teh Pro output.

On the flip side, if you have actual content at 24.00 or 60.00, which is rare but exists, you may want to enable "Rate Match" so this content is shown at the actual output rate. This can increase the number of output restarts, but playback of this rare content will have fewer frame drops. Note: With the current release (080420 as I write this) and future releases, you can manually enable Rate-match after using the above direct commands.


----------



## Roosvelt

bjorg said:


> First time owner. I'm familiarizing myself with my Radiance Pro on my TV before it goes into my home cinema. One thing I noticed with connecting the Apple TV 4K to it, is that the Apple device does not emit the native resolution of the source material. It has options to match frame rate and color depth, but not resolution. That means for source material in HD/SD, the content is upscaled by the Apple TV instead of the Radiance Pro. Additionally, I can't use features like Darbee on low-resolution content.
> 
> One of my primary sources is Plex. Any suggestions on what would make a great Plex source device for the Radiance Pro?


I have a Radiance pro 4242 and an ATV 4K, I watch movies with Infuse’s app. 

As Docrog said, each times I want to watch a 1080p movie, I switch the ATV to 1080p SDR, for a 4K movie I switch to 4K SDR and change the memory of my Radiance Pro too. 

If it’s a 4K HDR movie, the Radiance pro will detect it and switch your display to HDR, Bjorg you mustn’t activate 4K HDR in the settings of ATV, always SDR

My memories settings
Memory A my Radiance upscale 4K movies

Memory B my Radiance upscale for my TV, a Sony 75Z9D who have a peak brightness of 4000 nits 4K movies

Memory C my Radiance upscale with Darbee 1080p movies 

Memory D my VP upscale it’s a Sony 760ES aka 885ES in USA 4K movies


----------



## Die Zwei

bjorg said:


> It sounded like it needed an app to sync framerate and someone mentioned the Kodi player. Are those not needed? Or needed for something else?


I mentioned Kodi together with the Plex plugin because that´s what i´m currently running and i can confirm that source direct works in this configuration. But you don´t neccessarily need it. I just wasn´t sure if the Plex app alone would be able to provide source direct because i haven´t tested it. But as others confirmed, that seem to work as well.
So no Kodi required just for source direct.


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> Or even worse, you could have a separate ATV that is setup to 1080p only. This is the reality of things right now though. So many sources are not giving you the option of a source direct output. This applies to streaming devices and Blu-ray players as well. There are only a couple players being sold today that offer a source direct function. Even a lot of cable boxes are locked at some output resolution. It is going to become more and more difficult to take advantage of the scaling functionality of video processors. There are still scaling benefits for A-lenses, aspect ratio control and more, but upscaling content is going to continue to be more and more difficult. This makes sense from a CE product design standpoint. A single output resolution makes for a more streamlined experience since the display won't continuously see changes to the input resolution and have signal drops.


How does 1080p upscaling on ATV 4K compare to the Lumagen ?

I wonder if the new ATV rumored to be announced next month, will add more control like source-direct mode.


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> That was back in 2018. I am not aware of any shows now that are 1080P HDR, Are you?


It's not something that I track as I'm not generally interested in the technical spec of a given bit of content, more whether the content interests me (it would get watched regardless). It had just stuck in my mind from when I read the article originally that it was the case that not all HDR is 4K on Netflix


----------



## ShaharT

bjorg said:


> I must have misunderstood then. It sounded like it needed an app to sync framerate and someone mentioned the Kodi player. Are those not needed? Or needed for something else?


For streaming apps like Netflix you will need a hack like approach. Audioguys approach works only for ripped content stored on your nas. Many other players do that (dune ultra, dune II, zapitti and others).. But I am yet to find _any_ player that would allow me to do the same with streaming apps like Netflix. Without the cumbersome edid changes that is flaky at times as well. I suspect the culprit is the app vendors ie Netflix, more than the players but I'm not sure.


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> It's not something that I track as I'm not generally interested in the technical spec of a given bit of content, more whether the content interests me (it would get watched regardless). It had just stuck in my mind from when I read the article originally that it was the case that not all HDR is 4K on Netflix


I don't track it either, but I do not remember coming across 1080P HDR, that is why I was asking. And I watch a lot of Netflix.


----------



## bjorg

I suspect I already know the answer to this, but is there by any chance a hidden setting to zoom in 1% increments instead of 5%? It's not a feature request, as it's not important enough to me, but if it's there, it would help me simulate various overscan situations.


----------



## ShaharT

Hello, fellow owners of scope screens with masking (I use the SI Transformer that changes shapes from 2.4 to 2.35 down to 16:9 by moving itself instead of moving side masks - I love the visual effect) and with a DCR Paladin lens. 

I'm sure there are many of us here with this combination of a Lumagen, scope screen with masking, and a DCR Paladin lense. 

How do you 'aim' your projector?

The best I could do (after many different attempts), to not have to use the Lumagen's 'Shrink' or 'Mask,' features at all, and because of OCD for perfection I have (I want every pixel!) was to zoom my protector to correctly fill the sides (width) of my screen when it is fully open to 2.4 ratio, projecting the internal test pattern of the projector.

I then get some pixels above and below the 'white' part of the screen and into the black velvet surroundings. To eliminate them, I use the projector's internal blanking feature to turn off these few lines above and below, because they bother me even on the black velvet.

I set the Lumagen to an aspect ratio of 2.38 for all incoming signal ratios, as I found that at this ratio, I get everything precisely right both when my masking closes all the way down to 16:9 (and I watch a 16:9 content) and when the masking is open up to 2.4 (and I watch 2.35 or 2.4 content or decide to watch some 16:9 content with NLS engaged on) - in all cases with these settings, the image is *pixel perfec*t within the 'white' screen, with nothing on the black velvet.

I also use Lumagen's brilliant recent feature of converging 2.35 and 2.4 content into 2.4, and the same about merging 1.85, etc into 16:9. Hence I only use my masking either fully open at 2.4 (max size the screen allows) or at 16:9 (smallest it allows).

Is this how you do this? Is it better to not 'give up' these extra few lines above/below the fabric (with blanking) and instead use about 1.5% to 2% of 'shrink' for top and bottom image with the Lumagen? 

The reason I did not do this (although I tried it to see how it looks like), is because I was worried it would hurt the geometry of the content at some level, although visually, I didn't see any difference with 2% shrink above / below vs. blanking those lines.

So on the one hand, I dislike part of my current approach of blanking in the projector a few lines because I lose a few lines of pixels above and below, and on the other hand, the purist in me doesn't want to use 'Shrink' in the Lumagen for hurting geometry.

By the way, initially, I was concerned SI manufactured the screen not precisely enough, and that's why I get a few lines of pixels above / below when zooming in to fill the scope screen at 2.4 width, but it somehow seems to be a common phenomenon. Or was my initial concern of manufacturing tolerance in my screen being slightly off possibly correct? 

Best would be if I had that extra inch (possibly less) of white fabric on the screen's top and bottom when it's fully open. But I guess either there's a limit to manufacturing exactness or maybe that's an impact of the Paladin lens. Or - that I'm doing something wrong here...

As to your possible question of why am I using 'blanking' in the projector to eliminate these lines above and below, instead of the useful 'masking' feature n the Lumagen - the one in the projector is much more refined, it moves in much smaller steps (I think virtually single-pixel line at a time) vs. what the Lumagen allows in its percentage-based masking which is slightly more coarse. With the projector's internal blanking control, I can get it pixel-perfect within the 'white' screen top and bottom.

Thoughts or feedback would be much appreciated, as this is after a lot of hours of self experimenting with trying to get things just 'perfect.' Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

When using a DCR lens the actual aspect is 2.37:1. That is why it is nearly impossible to get it to work with a true 2.4 screen.


----------



## ShaharT

Kris Deering said:


> When using a DCR lens the actual aspect is 2.37:1. That is why it is nearly impossible to get it to work with a true 2.4 screen.


Wow thanks! So I was quite close with the 2.38 I reached via a lot of trial and error. I know what I'm going to be trying this evening


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> When using a DCR lens the actual aspect is 2.37:1. That is why it is nearly impossible to get it to work with a true 2.4 screen.


Interesting. The DCR lens works fine with my 2.35:1 screen - 2.37:1 is close enough.


----------



## bobof

For what it is worth, the Lumagen does have pixel perfect masking at the input level; which if you're using scaling then actually gives you sub-pixel masking control I believe.

On my own mask control light bleed onto the masks is a constant annoyance; not because of the Lumagen behaviour, but because the JVC X7900 range of projectors do suffer from some amount of drift in shift while powered up. 

With mask screens that have mobile masks like mine there is a further annoyance that even if the screen is perfectly sized, the top mask gets in the light path whereas the bottom one doesn't (unless you have the projector mounted dead centre to the screen, usually impractical).

The Lumagen does have a soft-edged option which can help in some instances, though it would be nice if the % of soft edge area could be dialled down a bit. There is another quirk which I haven't worked out if there is a work-around for; with a 16:9 top / bottom masking screen I only seem to be able to soft edge the 16:9 frame. When there is 2.4 content the soft edges remain on the verticals, but they're not re-positioned top and bottom to where the screen edges now are.


----------



## DenverMDM

audioguy said:


> In my use there is no "tinkering" required. I have set it (Shield/Plex) to be source direct and that is exactly what it does. If you are only interested in playing ripped movies, the Zappiti Pro (and I suspect the other Zappiti players) will also play source direct.


Do you have a 2019 Shield Pro with a source direct setting? I have the older 2017 model and would be curious what resolution setting I can make to make sure the Lumagen is doing all conversions. Currently I have it set to 422 12 Bit 2020


----------



## ShaharT

bobof said:


> For what it is worth, the Lumagen does have pixel perfect masking at the input level; which if you're using scaling then actually gives you sub-pixel masking control I believe.
> 
> On my own mask control light bleed onto the masks is a constant annoyance; not because of the Lumagen behaviour, but because the JVC X7900 range of projectors do suffer from some amount of drift in shift while powered up.
> 
> With mask screens that have mobile masks like mine there is a further annoyance that even if the screen is perfectly sized, the top mask gets in the light path whereas the bottom one doesn't (unless you have the projector mounted dead centre to the screen, usually impractical).
> 
> The Lumagen does have a soft-edged option which can help in some instances, though it would be nice if the % of soft edge area could be dialled down a bit. There is another quirk which I haven't worked out if there is a work-around for; with a 16:9 top / bottom masking screen I only seem to be able to soft edge the 16:9 frame. When there is 2.4 content the soft edges remain on the verticals, but they're not re-positioned top and bottom to where the screen edges now are.


Thanks! I'll give it a try! Am I right that the consensus is it's better to give up on a couple of lines above/below and not to use 'shrink' the image using Lumgen's style->shrink to the top and bottom to get the full details in? 
I suppose it's more of a personal taste kind of thing, but for whatever reason applying a non-forced change in geometry to the content feels worse than losing a few lines of pixels. What's your take on this?


----------



## Die Zwei

DenverMDM said:


> Do you have a 2019 Shield Pro with a source direct setting? I have the older 2017 model and would be curious what resolution setting I can make to make sure the Lumagen is doing all conversions. Currently I have it set to 422 12 Bit 2020


JFYI - there´s a new Shield Upgrade 8.2.0 available since today. Perhaps it´s worth a try.


----------



## Mike Garrett

hockyAVS said:


> JFYI - there´s a new Shield Upgrade 8.2.0 available since today. Perhaps it´s worth a try.


8.2.0 is all about the improved upscaling ability.


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Thanks! I'll give it a try! Am I right that the consensus is it's better to give up on a couple of lines above/below and not to use 'shrink' the image using Lumgen's style->shrink to the top and bottom to get the full details in?
> I suppose it's more of a personal taste kind of thing, but for whatever reason applying a non-forced change in geometry to the content feels worse than losing a few lines of pixels. What's your take on this?


I'd lose the pixels every time and avoid scaling. If you think about it, anyone choosing to drop a ratio like 2.35 in favour of 2.4 is already dropping more than a few lines, it's only with non video content like a Windows desktop or a frame cropping test image that you would ever really notice a few lines going missing.

It's not long since different TVs had pretty random amounts of overscan between them, what is a couple of lines between friends?


----------



## bjorg

A feature request for fixed size displays would be to indicate the target resolution instead of shrink %. For example, I want all 3,840 horizontal pixels to be mapped to a 3,520 wide display, the difference being split equally. Ditto for height. Currently, I have to approximate it with a 4% shrink from the left and right, which gives me a 3,532.8 pixel image (off by 12.8 pixels). Also, I have no idea how the 0.8 pixel is handled and how to account for it to center the image.


----------



## jrp

*ShaharT *and anyone wanting to be as accurate as possible for your given screen aspect ratio and possible use of an anamorphic lens.

Note that the Radiance Pro output style "shrink" feature does not necessarily "shrink" the image. Rather it reduces the amount of the projector raster being used for the active image area. It may decide it must shrink the image (e.g. 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen without a lens), but there are cases where the Pro can turn scaling completely off.

FYI: You can enter the Output Shrink, or Output Masking, in 0.01% by using the digit keys instead of the up and down arrows. Get close using the arrows and then dial it in by entering in 1/100th percentage steps with the digit keys. This is one part in 10000 and so you can enter sub-pixel steps (about 0.25 pixels vertically and 0.4 pixels horizontally). The amount is rounded to the nearest pixel.

For the non-anamorphic lens case at 3840x2160 out, if you set shrink top and bottom to 12.96%, turn scale bias off, set the output aspect to 2.40, and for 2.40 4k content select the input aspect as 2.40, the Pro will see that the number of active input pixels equals the number of active output pixels. For this case it will turn scaling off (a good thing to do when possible). Note that since the Shrink is in 0.01% steps (rather than pixels), you cannot set an exact pixel value. Turn "Scale Bias" to Off. This tells the Pro that if it the source size is close to 1:1, treat it as exact.

Here's an optimization you can do without a lens: It is best to be able to turn both horizontal and vertical scaling off. Since both 2.35 and 2.40 content is 3840 wide, if you have the Pro output set to 3840 wide, you can use the"Output->Style->Style0->Aspect->Output aspect per input aspect" to make sure the scaling is off. After selecting the output aspect in "Single output aspect" mode (I will assume you set it to 2.40), go to the Aspect menu and change to "Output aspect per input aspect." In this sub-menu up and down arrow until you get to the 2.35 entry, press OK to enable a change, and then enter 2.35, press OK to accept the change. Then press EXIT to activate the change. With Scale Bias off these are close enough that the Pro will leave vertical scaling off in both cases. You may need to use the Pro's Masking to correct overscan, don't use "Shrink" for this or it may turn scaling on. The advantage of this method is scaling can be off horizontally and vertically, for both 2.35 and 2.40 content.

====

When you have an lens, such as the Paladin DCR, I recommend you select the output aspect as 2.40. For the DCR with the Pro output set to 4096 x 2160, the optical output aspect is really 2.37 (= 4096/(2160*0.8)). However, selecting the output aspect as 2.40 has two advantages:

1) If you have a 2.40 screen it matches your screen aspect which is optimal
2) You can use every horizontal pixel the 4096 wide mode for both 2.35 and 2.40 content, as discussed below

If you agree with me on 2.40 output aspect, in single output aspect mode select 2.40, then in "Output aspect per input aspect" set the output aspect for 2.35 source to 2.35. Turn Scale Bias = Off. The advantage is both 2.35 and 2.40 content will fill the 4096 output raster width.

If you use auto-aspect then I suggest you "merge" 2.35 and 2.40 to 2.40 in the auto-aspect menu. This can avoid changes if content sometimes looks like 2.40 and sometimes looks like 2.35. With Scale-Bias set to Off, the two should actually use the same scanlines. So this may not make any difference, but good to do in my opinion. In addition you may need to use the Style0->Mask/Shrink->Mask to blank the extra height of 2.35 content.

=====

Note that vertical lens shift can increase the height to width ratio as you apply more lens shift. This is due to the changing angle in the light path. This can mean you need to change the vertical top and bottom "Shrink" to fit.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> A feature request for fixed size displays would be to indicate the target resolution instead of shrink %. For example, I want all 3,840 horizontal pixels to be mapped to a 3,520 wide display, the difference being split equally. Ditto for height. Currently, I have to approximate it with a 4% shrink from the left and right, which gives me a 3,532.8 pixel image (off by 12.8 pixels). Also, I have no idea how the 0.8 pixel is handled and how to account for it to center the image.


Thanks for the suggestion.

With Scale Bias set to On, it is a true percentage to the nearest pixel (might be a rounding difference but it would be very small). With Scale Bias Off, if the input to output is close to 1:1, it snaps to 1:1. A case against using pixel values is if you change resolutions the percentage still works but a pixel value would be wrong.

There is too much history with using percentage, and it is a lot of work for pixel steps for a feature that we already have that works very well. We believe the percentage is the best way to do this, and this is why we choose percentage over pixels for this feature. 

We will not be adding a pixel steps mode for this.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> We will not be adding a pixel steps mode for this.


Makes sense. With a 0.01% precision on shrink, it will be close enough. Thanks for sharing--and implementing--that!


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> For the non-anamorphic lens case at 3840x2160 out, if you set shrink top and bottom to 12.96%, turn scale bias off, set the output aspect to 2.40, and for 2.40 4k content select the input aspect as 2.40, the Pro will see that the number of active input pixels equals the number of active output pixels. For this case it will turn scaling off (a good thing to do when possible). Note that since the Shrink is in 0.01% steps (rather than pixels), you cannot set an exact pixel value. Turn "Scale Bias" to Off. This tells the Pro that if it the source size is close to 1:1, treat it as exact.
> 
> Here's an optimization you can do without a lens: It is best to be able to turn both horizontal and vertical scaling off. Since both 2.35 and 2.40 content is 3840 wide, if you have the Pro output set to 3840 wide, you can use the"Output->Style->Style0->Aspect->Output aspect per input aspect" to make sure the scaling is off. After selecting the output aspect in "Single output aspect" mode (I will assume you set it to 2.40), go to the Aspect menu and change to "Output aspect per input aspect." In this sub-menu up and down arrow until you get to the 2.35 entry, press OK to enable a change, and then enter 2.35, press OK to accept the change. Then press EXIT to activate the change. With Scale Bias off these are close enough that the Pro will leave vertical scaling off in both cases. You may need to use the Pro's Masking to correct overscan, don't use "Shrink" for this or it may turn scaling on. The advantage of this method is scaling can be off horizontally and vertically, for both 2.35 and 2.40 content.


Jim, I'm assuming all of what you've described above is moot for those of us that have 16:9 screens? I have a 16:9 screen and display everything in 16:9, so want to make sure I'm already doing everything optimally. Thanks.

Chris


----------



## bjorg

As I'm pouring through the the Radiance Pro manual, I wonder if it would make sense to have a community effort to create documentation for it on GitHub or ReadTheDocs. I'm familiar with the former, but have only had limited exposure to the latter.

For example, the 0.01% shrink feature was a really big deal for me, but--as far as I can tell--there is no mention of it in the PDF. It would be great if it could be contributed to the documentation for future users. I assume there also folks who can rephrase some existing features to be a little less cryptic. 

Would anyone interested in participating? First step would be to copy-paste most of the PDF to it, assuming Jim is okay with it.


----------



## ShaharT

Another AR question: what do you do with all these Netflix 2.0 a/r movies & episodes? 
So far, it's a lose/lose for me.
Either I open the masking to 2.35, get a white screen on the sides, or open masking to 1.85:1 or 16:9; in either case, I get some of the content on the side velvet.

I still haven't figured the best approach to this 2.0 a/r pushed by Netflix and others.
As I don't have a single 'traditional' TV @home, I'm curious about how this new a/r looks like on regular 16:9 TVs?


----------



## bobof

What's stopping you masking to 2.0? The Lumagen supports it as a detected resolution. I have my masks programmed to open to 2.0 for 2.0 content.


----------



## ShaharT

bobof said:


> What's stopping you masking to 2.0? The Lumagen supports it as a detected resolution. I have my masks programmed to open to 2.0 for 2.0 content.


Valid point! As I mentioned I've before for this gadget as my screen - 



And out of the box, it has 2:4, 2:3.5, 1.85, and 16:9 preprogrammed on its remote.
It hadn't occurred to me that maybe I can enter a manual masking size as well.... I'll drop them now an email and ask.
I just saw they discontinue this model, I guess the 'coolness' factor of seeing the screen change form vs. more regular masking the drop-down, just didn't justify the cost difference for enough buyer.
Thanks for helping me with this idea!


----------



## bobof

Having seen it in operation (cool idea, BTW) obviously there's no mechanical reason why it couldn't, but there may be annoying nonsense reasons (like insufficient memories in the controller). I only have 6 memories in the controller for my Screen Research so I have 1.78, 1.85, 2.0, 2.2, 2.35 and 2.4 programmed. I recall I had to custom program 2.2.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Jim, I'm assuming all of what you've described above is moot for those of us that have 16:9 screens? I have a 16:9 screen and display everything in 16:9, so want to make sure I'm already doing everything optimally. Thanks.
> Chris


You are correct. The aspect comments were for anamorphic screens.

However, there are features you can use to with a 16:9 screen to fill more of the screen by a mixture of stretching and cropping. I have helped people setup the Radiance Pro to fill a 16:9 screen with any aspect from 4:3 to 2.40. This does require stretch and cropping. This is an extreme case, but you can increase the active image area some with cropping, and/or stretch. For example, for a 16:9 screen I like to zoom 2.35 and 2.40 movies by 15%. This trims 7.5% off the left and right and better fills the screen and reduces the letterbox bar size.


----------



## audioguy

Jim: speaking of cropping and/or stretch, do you have any NLS setting recommendations (for a 2:35 screen)?


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> Jim: speaking of cropping and/or stretch, do you have any NLS setting recommendations (for a 2:35 screen)?


For 16:9 I recommend the defaults for movie/TV shows. However, for news programs, and/or sports, that have "tickers" at top and/or bottom of the screen I recommend you go into the resolution config you are using and change the NLS setup crop top = 0 and crop bottom = 0 so the tickers are visible.

For 2.0 and 2.2 source content, you can go into the resolution config you are using and change the NLS setup to reduce the center section stretch amount since less stretching is needed.


----------



## audioguy

Jim: Thanks. I will try those.


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> In my use there is no "tinkering" required. I have set it (Shield/Plex) to be source direct and that is exactly what it does. If you are only interested in playing ripped movies, the Zappiti Pro (and I suspect the other Zappiti players) will also play source direct.


I got the nVidia Shield, but I can't find the _Source Direct_ mode on it. Can you point me in the right direction?


----------



## Mike Garrett

bjorg said:


> I got the nVidia Shield, but I can't find the _Source Direct_ mode on it. Can you point me in the right direction?


From what I recall, you have to run a 3rd party APP on the Shield.


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> From what I recall, you have to run a 3rd party APP on the Shield.


I run Plex on the Shield as a Client (and in my NAS as a server). Resolution switching can be enabled or disabled in Plex. Kodi provides the same capability if you prefer it over Plex. I use the Shield/Plex to play my ripped movied. I also use the Shield to play YouTube TV, Amazon and Netflix.


----------



## docrog

Several days ago @jrp provided detailed information regarding scaling for various content on scope screens (not 16:9 AR). The JVC bars appearing above and below scope movies on a 16:9 screen are dark gray, rather than black. Is there any way to utilize the Radiance Pro's masking ability to make these appear more black on my 16:9 screen (merging more imperceptibly with the screen's black bezel), or will it always be the same degree of gray?


----------



## ShaharT

bobof said:


> What's stopping you masking to 2.0? The Lumagen supports it as a detected resolution. I have my masks programmed to open to 2.0 for 2.0 content.


Thanks for your excellent suggestion. 

I've just gone through the SI transformer manual and added another masking preset. 
Now in addition to 1.77 (used often), 1.85, (never used) 2.35 (never used), and 2.40 (used often), I have an assigned button for 2:1 aka 18:9 Univisium aspect ratio, which seems to be growing in popularity within most streaming providers. 

I keep looking for reasons to move to Stwert's director's choice screen - the concept of 4-way variable masking is so cool. Alas, I can't find a reason to take the plunge...


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for your excellent suggestion.
> 
> I've just gone through the SI transformer manual and added another masking preset.
> Now in addition to 1.77 (used often), 1.85, (never used) 2.35 (never used), and 2.40 (used often), I have an assigned button for 2:1 aka 18:9 Univisium aspect ratio, which seems to be growing in popularity within most streaming providers.
> 
> I keep looking for reasons to move to Stwert's director's choice screen - the concept of 4-way variable masking is so cool. Alas, I can't find a reason to take the plunge...


Nice one, glad it worked out. Makes all those titles look so much better being correctly masked.
The mask screens are ferociously expensive and a tough sell even though the effect is awesome. I've only got a 2 way masking Screen Research which was already a budget buster; top/bottom masks was the only way in this room as the CIH 16:9 is just way too small. I might yet look into building my own 4 way mask system at some point...


----------



## Kris Deering

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for your excellent suggestion.
> 
> I've just gone through the SI transformer manual and added another masking preset.
> Now in addition to 1.77 (used often), 1.85, (never used) 2.35 (never used), and 2.40 (used often), I have an assigned button for 2:1 aka 18:9 Univisium aspect ratio, which seems to be growing in popularity within most streaming providers.
> 
> I keep looking for reasons to move to Stwert's director's choice screen - the concept of 4-way variable masking is so cool. Alas, I can't find a reason to take the plunge...


I just recently installed a new 2.40 variable masking screen from Stewart. So fully scope screen with masks that come in from the side (similar to your Transformer). I setup mask presets for 1.33, 1.78, 1.85, 2.0, 2.2, and 2.4. All seem to work really well with all the content I watch.



docrog said:


> Several days ago @jrp provided detailed information regarding scaling for various content on scope screens (not 16:9 AR). The JVC bars appearing above and below scope movies on a 16:9 screen are dark gray, rather than black. Is there any way to utilize the Radiance Pro's masking ability to make these appear more black on my 16:9 screen (merging more imperceptibly with the screen's black bezel), or will it always be the same degree of gray?


You are seeing the limitation of the black level of the projector itself. No amount of processing can overcome that. This is why people like physical masking systems, it removes that completely so the picture is framed with no distraction from the dark grey bars.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I just recently installed a new 2.40 variable masking screen from Stewart. So fully scope screen with masks that come in from the side (similar to your Transformer). I setup mask presets for 1.33, 1.78, 1.85, 2.0, 2.2, and 2.4. All seem to work really well with all the content I watch.


Out of interest how are you driving the masks now - did you hook it up at all to the AA feature?

I was pondering this the other day, and got to thinking it might be nice to have the option of just having one button on remote that enables AA, waits for an aspect for a while, sets the masks, and then disables AA (an "adjust my screen to fit the image" button) instead of having to skip through the ratios or know what the correct ratio is.


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> I run Plex on the Shield as a Client (and in my NAS as a server). Resolution switching can be enabled or disabled in Plex. Kodi provides the same capability if you prefer it over Plex. I use the Shield/Plex to play my ripped movied. I also use the Shield to play YouTube TV, Amazon and Netflix.


I feel like an idiot, but I can't find the resolution matching in the Plex or Shield UI. I found the settings to match color-space and frame rate, but not for resolution. Can you share a screenshot of where the setting is? Thx!


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Out of interest how are you driving the masks now - did you hook it up at all to the AA feature?
> 
> I was pondering this the other day, and got to thinking it might be nice to have the option of just having one button on remote that enables AA, waits for an aspect for a while, sets the masks, and then disables AA (an "adjust my screen to fit the image" button) instead of having to skip through the ratios or know what the correct ratio is.


I just use a remote. I have a Harmony Pro 2400 remote. I programmed the four color buttons that I NEVER use for any playback source and made them the direct buttons for whatever aspect I want to watch. The Lumagen does the picture automatically, and then I just match the mask manually (I don't want the masks reacting to stuff like bringing up a menu and such). I set the single press on those to 1.78, 1.85, 2.2 and full scope. I then made the 1.78 button long press for 1.33 and the 1.85 long press for 2.1 since it is EXTREMELY rare that I use those aspect ratios. I have enough extra buttons on the remote that I could have done normal presses for those, but didn't feel the need.


----------



## audioguy

bjorg said:


> I feel like an idiot, but I can't find the resolution matching in the Plex or Shield UI. I found the settings to match color-space and frame rate, but not for resolution. Can you share a screenshot of where the setting is? Thx!


Next time I am in the theater (probably later today), I will do that.


----------



## audioguy

> I feel like an idiot, but I can't find the resolution matching in the Plex or Shield UI. I found the settings to match color-space and frame rate, but not for resolution. Can you share a screenshot of where the setting is? Thx!


On this page, scroll to the bottom to find settings:








And after you select "settings", scroll to the bottom of the page to find this and turn resolutions switching "on".









Then you need to go to the Shield settings, and under Device Preferences, then Display & Sound, then Resolution and (assuming you have a 4K TV/Projector) select 59.940.

All of that will take care of anything you run under Plex, but if you use something like YouTube TV running on the Shield (as we do) I can't find a way to do the same thing.

Hope this helps


----------



## docrog

I'm hoping that someone can help me with this issue: my 4240 is plugged into a Parasound SCAMP (Signal Controlled AMplifier Power) which is powered on via a trigger from my AVR. After the most recent firmware update the 4240 no longer turns on when power is provided from the SCAMP (I have to power on via the Lumagen remote) and doesn't go into standby mode when the SCAMP goes into standby when the AVR goes into standby (I have to manually select standby on the Lumagen remote). The Lumagen previously worked correctly in the power on and standby conditions when coupled with the SCAMP. I remember that @jrp had indicated which menu selection for power should be chosen, but, despite several attempts, I've been unable to re-locate that menu. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> I'm hoping that someone can help me with this issue: my 4240 is plugged into a Parasound SCAMP (Signal Controlled AMplifier Power) which is powered on via a trigger from my AVR. After the most recent firmware update the 4240 no longer turns on when power is provided from the SCAMP (I have to power on via the Lumagen remote) and *doesn't go into standby mode when the SCAMP goes into standby* when the AVR goes into standby (I have to manually select standby on the Lumagen remote). The Lumagen previously worked correctly in the power on and standby conditions when coupled with the SCAMP. I remember that @jrp had indicated which menu selection for power should be chosen, but, despite several attempts, I've been unable to re-locate that menu. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


SCAMP cuts power from the Lumagen, and it still stays on? Thats impossible. Are you sure you haven't plugged the Lumagen to a different outlet when you did the update?


----------



## SJHT

The power options are on page 36 of the manual:

Initial Power State
When power is connected, the unit will turn “on” automatically, or go to “standby-mode”. The command is: MENU → Other → OnOff Setup → Auto On → (Standby, Turn On)


----------



## docrog

SJHT said:


> The power options are on page 36 of the manual:
> 
> Initial Power State
> When power is connected, the unit will turn “on” automatically, or go to “standby-mode”. The command is: MENU → Other → OnOff Setup → Auto On → (Standby, Turn On)


Thanks for your input! My Lumagen's setting calls for the 4240 to turn on when power is applied.


----------



## docrog

MDesigns said:


> SCAMP cuts power from the Lumagen, and it still stays on? That's impossible. Are you sure you haven't plugged the Lumagen to a different outlet when you did the update?


 Thanks for your response. After I posted I realized that it shouldn't be possible for the 4240 to power on when the SCAMP was in standby mode. I then thought that the relay in the SCAMP may have become defective (I had recently replaced the SCAMP's fuse), so I checked out all of the connections this morning. As you correctly suggested, I hadn't re-plugged the 4240 into the SCAMP after I had removed it from my HT to perform the latest firmware update. The proper connections have now been re-established and are working correctly (the 4240 does not power on when the AVR's source for 2 channel music is selected, powering on only when a video source is chosen). Can my embarrassment be seen all the way to your house???


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> Thanks for your response. After I posted I realized that it shouldn't be possible for the 4240 to power on when the SCAMP was in standby mode. I then thought that the relay in the SCAMP may have become defective (I had recently replaced the SCAMP's fuse), so I checked out all of the connections this morning. As you correctly suggested, I hadn't re-plugged the 4240 into the SCAMP after I had removed it from my HT to perform the latest firmware update. The proper connections have now been re-established and are working correctly (the 4240 does not power on when the AVR's source for 2 channel music is selected, powering on only when a video source is chosen). Can my embarrassment be seen all the way to your house???


Glad you got it working


----------



## giomania

bjorg said:


> As I'm pouring through the the Radiance Pro manual, I wonder if it would make sense to have a community effort to create documentation for it on GitHub or ReadTheDocs. I'm familiar with the former, but have only had limited exposure to the latter.
> 
> For example, the 0.01% shrink feature was a really big deal for me, but--as far as I can tell--there is no mention of it in the PDF. It would be great if it could be contributed to the documentation for future users. I assume there also folks who can rephrase some existing features to be a little less cryptic.
> 
> Would anyone interested in participating? First step would be to copy-paste most of the PDF to it, assuming Jim is okay with it.


Check out the document linked in my signature; it should be close to what you are looking for.

Mark


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> Hope this helps


Yes, it did! After seeing that your screenshots were quite different from my UI I went back to the app store to see if there was another Plex app. Much to my surprise, it showed me an update for the app! I don't get it. I literally installed it only days ago. Anyway, mystery solved and thank you very much for the kind help!


----------



## bjorg

giomania said:


> Check out the document linked in my signature; it should be close to what you are looking for.


Yes, that is a wonderful document! Thank you for compiling it.


----------



## ShaharT

I know the recommendation is to use passive, no shorter than 3 meter HDMI cables to connect all sources to the Lumagen.

Is there any issue with using an 'active' cable, connecting the Lumagen out HDMI to a projector?

I am about to place an order for such a 20m active cable AC-BTSSF-10KUHD-20 Product Code: AC-BTSSF-10KUHD-20, and the online store kindly offered an alternative passive 15m cable instead.

Any reason to go one way vs. the other?

My gut is that I'd rather have an active cable that supports up to 48GBPS vs. a passive one that supports only up to 18GBPS, as I'm not going to be opening my ceiling for wiring too often...
Thanks, Shahar

** edit ** this is along with wiring a fiber cable and using Uncompressed 4K HDMI Extender via Optical Fiber product code AC-EXO-UNC-KIT Uncompressed 4K HDMI Extender via Optical Fiber as the main connection. My plan is that the Lumagen out will be connected to the extender and from there via fiber optic cable to the projector, but to wire the active HDMI cable as a fallback. Possibly connecting it into the Projector second HDMI input, but leaving it unconnected near my equipment rack, as the Lumagen with the 18ghz output card has only one output running video. The other one that runs audio goes straight to my Trinnov.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT:

Our recommendation is to use passive 2 to 5 meter 18 GHz cables from the sources to the Radiance Pro and the Radiance Pro output to the audio processor.

We recommend you _not_ use an active cable from source devices to the Radiance Pro input, if the active cable gets its power from the source device HDMI output standby power. We have had a number of cases where a source device did not have enough HDMI output standby power to power the active cable and this caused dropout issues. In these cases switching to passive cables resolved the issues. 

We recommend the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" fiber cable for the long run to the projector. However, there are other fiber cables (such as the RUIPRO) that work well.


----------



## feelthesound

Any news for the 12bits 3dlut?


----------



## bferbrache

I've just bought a Zidoo Z9S and I am pleased with the features it offers for playing mkv movies from the NAS. The video wall is great and the picture quality looks good on bluray films. On 4K mkv's it is not so good and there is noticeable banding with a lot of material. I'm passing the Zidoo signal through my Radiance Pro and my display is a Panasonic Fz802 OLED. I've tried all the different settings on the Zidoo but nothing seems to work - my Oppo 203 doesn't show any banding with the same material. Can anyone suggest some settings I could try or is this a common issue with the Zidoo?
Thanks
Brian


----------



## audioguy

FWIW, I have none of those issues on my Nvidia/Plex combo!


----------



## steelman1991

bferbrache said:


> I've just bought a Zidoo Z9S and I am pleased with the features it offers for playing mkv movies from the NAS. The video wall is great and the picture quality looks good on bluray films. On 4K mkv's it is not so good and there is noticeable banding with a lot of material. I'm passing the Zidoo signal through my Radiance Pro and my display is a Panasonic Fz802 OLED. I've tried all the different settings on the Zidoo but nothing seems to work - my Oppo 203 doesn't show any banding with the same material. Can anyone suggest some settings I could try or is this a common issue with the Zidoo?
> Thanks
> Brian


Nothing of that kind of artefact on my Zidoo. What are you're settings in the Zidoo?


----------



## SJHT

None of those issues with my Strato! 😉


----------



## bferbrache

I've tried these which I found in the Zidoo thread on here, I have also tried all other combinations that I can think of

Playback/Automatic frame rate/Frame rate mode: Switch frame rate and resolution

Display/HDMI Mode: 3840x2160p 23Hz
Display/HDR: Auto
Display/Advanced settings/Deep Color Mode: 10-bit
Display/Advanced settings/Color Space Mode: YCbCr 444
Display/Advanced settings/HDMI Range Mode: 16-235*

Audio/HDMI Audio: RAW
Audio/Downmix HD Audio output: OFF


* 64 - 940 (10-bit)


----------



## blake

What’s upscales 1080p to 4K best:

1) Lumagen Radiance Pro
2) JVC rs4500
3) oppo 203


----------



## audioguy

(1)


----------



## blake

audioguy said:


> (1)


1) Lumagen RP
4) Envy Pro 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

feelthesound said:


> Any news for the 12bits 3dlut?


We are currently working on the pipeline changes to 12-bits. Note that right now we are working on the pipeline in front of the frame buffer. The 3D LUT is in the back end of the pipeline and it will be some time before we get to that part of the pipeline

The 1-D LUT now has 12-bit parameters. While the 3D LUT input parameters are 10-bit the internal calculations are already at least 12-bits. SInce dE's for a 3D LUT are not as critical as for the 1D LUT, having 12-bit input parameters is not as important. However, we will be looking at this when we get to that section of the pipeline.


----------



## riddle

audioguy said:


> FWIW, I have none of those issues on my Nvidia/Plex combo!


Hi, maybe you've already written it here. But on Nvidia with Plex works source direct mode? Thank you


----------



## steelman1991

bferbrache said:


> I've tried these which I found in the Zidoo thread on here, I have also tried all other combinations that I can think of
> 
> Playback/Automatic frame rate/Frame rate mode: Switch frame rate and resolution
> 
> Display/HDMI Mode: 3840x2160p 23Hz
> Display/HDR: Auto
> Display/Advanced settings/Deep Color Mode: 10-bit
> Display/Advanced settings/Color Space Mode: YCbCr 444
> Display/Advanced settings/HDMI Range Mode: 16-235*
> 
> Audio/HDMI Audio: RAW
> Audio/Downmix HD Audio output: OFF
> 
> 
> * 64 - 940 (10-bit)


Yes that's how I'm set up - butI don't see any banding in content. My LRP was set-up professionally so I don't tinker with it, therefore I'm unable to offer suggestions on that process - sorry.

Any particular titles?


----------



## audioguy

riddle said:


> Hi, maybe you've already written it here. But on Nvidia with Plex works source direct mode? Thank you


*ALL THE WAY* .... one page back The search function would have easlly found it . See *HERE*


----------



## wl1

bferbrache said:


> I've tried these which I found in the Zidoo thread on here, I have also tried all other combinations that I can think of
> 
> Playback/Automatic frame rate/Frame rate mode: Switch frame rate and resolution
> 
> Display/HDMI Mode: 3840x2160p 23Hz
> Display/HDR: Auto
> Display/Advanced settings/Deep Color Mode: 10-bit
> Display/Advanced settings/Color Space Mode: YCbCr 444
> Display/Advanced settings/HDMI Range Mode: 16-235*
> 
> Audio/HDMI Audio: RAW
> Audio/Downmix HD Audio output: OFF
> 
> 
> * 64 - 940 (10-bit)


So you have fixed the output to 444? I’m sure the Lumagen will need to convert this to process it, so check your options here too.

You could also (diagnostically) connect your source to the Oppo input, and see if the results are the same.


----------



## picree

DeSat question. For my setup all HDR settings are consistent with discussions here and the image looks correct and proper:

JVC nits 90, LowRatio 33, DynPad 1, MaxLight 450

Except for DeSat.

DeSat used to be a number. For a true HDR rendition it was recommended to be 1-3 or something (now recommending Auto or Low). Before, if I didn't set DeSat to 10-12 (now High) the bright highlights in the opening scene from Mad Max would turn Cyan. For me, setting DeSat progressively from High down to Low I get more Cyan with Auto/Off being the worst. Is there something else wrong with my setup? Something else not calibrated correctly which I need to change so I can set DeSat Auto?


----------



## Kris Deering

picree said:


> DeSat question. For my setup all HDR settings are consistent with discussions here and the image looks correct and proper:
> 
> JVC nits 90, LowRatio 33, DynPad 1, MaxLight 450
> 
> Except for DeSat.
> 
> DeSat used to be a number. For a true HDR rendition it was recommended to be 1-3 or something (now recommending Auto or Low). Before, if I didn't set DeSat to 10-12 (now High) the bright highlights in the opening scene from Mad Max would turn Cyan. For me, setting DeSat progressively from High down to Low I get more Cyan with Auto/Off being the worst. Is there something else wrong with my setup? Something else not calibrated correctly which I need to change so I can set DeSat Auto?
> 
> View attachment 3036031


I recommend DESTAT in LOW, but there can be cases where you need to go a bit higher. These instances should be VERY VERY RARE (like Mad Max). But I would not go higher than Low for most content.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Mad Max is also my test case for DeSat. I used 8 before and now Mid to get rid of cyan/magenta highlights.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> We are currently working on the pipeline changes to 12-bits. Note that right now we are working on the pipeline in front of the frame buffer. The 3D LUT is in the back end of the pipeline and it will be some time before we get to that part of the pipeline
> 
> The 1-D LUT now has 12-bit parameters. While the 3D LUT input parameters are 10-bit the internal calculations are already at least 12-bits. SInce dE's for a 3D LUT are not as critical as for the 1D LUT, having 12-bit input parameters is not as important. However, we will be looking at this when we get to that section of the pipeline.


Which calibration software already takes advantage of the 12 bit 1d lut capability? Any settings changes required in these apps to create 12 but 1d luts?


----------



## bferbrache

steelman1991 said:


> Yes that's how I'm set up - butI don't see any banding in content. My LRP was set-up professionally so I don't tinker with it, therefore I'm unable to offer suggestions on that process - sorry.
> 
> Any particular titles?


I have noticed it particularly on the opening scenes of planet earth 2 'deserts' where there is clouds over the mountains, loads of banding in the sky/clouds. This banding is not there on the Oppo so I'm hoping it is an output setting on the Zidoo that needs changing 



wl1 said:


> So you have fixed the output to 444? I’m sure the Lumagen will need to convert this to process it, so check your options here too.
> 
> You could also (diagnostically) connect your source to the Oppo input, and see if the results are the same.


I have tried fixing the output to 444 and 442, both show similar results. I will try routing the signal through the Oppo as you suggest

Thanks both for your responses


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I would leave it on Auto. The only reason I can see to go above that is for special case needs like the flames in Mad Max. If you like them orange, you have to go to a higher desat level. But this can also effect content that doesn't need it. The default of 4 was because of the lightning strike frame in Mad Max, but I believe that is already corrected for with Auto, but I can look at it today to verify.





Kris Deering said:


> I recommend DESTAT in LOW, but there can be cases where you need to go a bit higher. These instances should be VERY VERY RARE (like Mad Max). But I would not go higher than Low for most content.


Hi Kris...is your recommendation of DeSat on "low" your new recommendation? You had suggested "auto" a couple weeks ago. Thanks.


----------



## sjschaff

audioguy said:


> *ALL THE WAY* .... one page back The search function would have easlly found it . See *HERE*


Can you tell me whether there is any clear benefit in using Plex vs. Kodi for the Nvidia Shield? I have been using Kodi for a few years but never really investigated Plex. The Nvidia is connected into the Lumagen via HDMI and the media is on a Synology NAS.


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> Hi Kris...is your recommendation of DeSat on "low" your new recommendation? You had suggested "auto" a couple weeks ago. Thanks.


Yes


----------



## Kris Deering

ShaharT said:


> Which calibration software already takes advantage of the 12 bit 1d lut capability? Any settings changes required in these apps to create 12 but 1d luts?


The LUT has always been 12 bit. It is just that the front end wouldn't allow for the same level of precision when using a software solution for the calibration. I believe LS takes advantage of it currently. CalMan has not been updated to take advantage of it yet. If you do the LUT manually in the Lumagen, you can benefit from the full precision.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Yes


Could you elaborate a bit? Just trying to understand the pros/cons of going from auto to "low". Thanks!


----------



## SJHT

What’s the difference in the DeSat setting? I did a search of the latest manual and found nothing. I turned mine from Auto to Low and really saw no change in the last movie I watched. Thanks. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

DESAT only applies to a certain amount of content, so you could change the setting constantly with some content and you'll never see the difference. It really only applies to high nit AND high APL content. A great example is the 4000 nit grade of the montage in the Spears and Munsil disc. The higher you set DSAT, the more you'll see color desaturation. This is a basic of image compression. If you want to represent really bright content brighter on screen, you have to give up color saturation to achieve it. This is one of the balance's of tone mapping. You can either have it really bright (compressed) and sacrifice overall contrast and color saturation or you can have it dimmer (less compressed) with greater overall dynamic range and more color saturation.


----------



## jrp

We have been working on the pipeline enhancements now that we have the DTM in such great shape. We should have a release in about a week with an improved up-sampling algorithm (e.g. 2k to 4k), and both a sharpener for scaling (e.g. 2k to 4k), and a sharpener for 4k content. The new scaling algorithm (without any sharpness turned on) increases the Radiance Pro scaling score on the Tektronix scaling analysis tester by about 10% and there is a noticeable increase in image detail.

I can post more at a later date, but everyone should realize that over-sharpening alters the director's intent. Making a distant object "sharp" is wrong since that is _not_ how it would look if you were there in person. Distant objects should be out of focus consistent with their distance from the observer. The same can be said when objects in motion are sharpened. You are reducing the intentional and necessary motion blur.

When you over-sharpen an image you create the dreaded "soap opera effect." The common complaint I hear from professionals about sharpening is that it makes the images look "artificial" and "over processed."

When a movie mastered in 2k is converted to UHD or HDR, the director/producer/grader decide on how sharp the resulting 4k images should be. They have the tools to really sharpen the images if they thought it was the right thing to do. However, you do not see this. An example I will likely discuss in more detail later is Skyfall. It was mastered in 2k and then up-sampled for the UHD version. The Radiance Pro scaling of the 2k version of Skyfall, without any sharpening, to my eyes looks essentially identical to the 4k UHD version. This is exactly what a scaling algorithm should do.

I do think there is a place for a small amount of sharpening to correct for detail lost in compression. For example Skyfall would have some additional detail if it was instead mastered in 4k. In addition, I think people would be surprised at how much high frequency detail is thrown out once the content is converted to the frequency-domain during the compression process. Looking at the "truncation matrix" for Luma and Chroma I have always been surprised at how good the images still can look after the high frequencies are reduced, or even tossed away. Trying to recover the lost detail makes sense, and that is what we are trying to achieve with the Radiance Pro sharpening we are working on.

One professional described (over) sharpening as "putting 10 spoon fulls of sugar in your coffee." It makes the images sickly-sweet. For the Radiance Pro we are working to recover lost detail with our sharpening algorithm, without making the mistake of over-sharpening the images. Our goal has always been, and will remain, studio reference standard image quality.


----------



## Craig Peer

" Our goal has always been, and will remain, studio reference standard image quality " - I am excited to install and check out this firmware update. Thanks Jim and team !


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> We have been working on the pipeline enhancements now that we have the DTM in such great shape. We should have a release in about a week with an improved up-sampling algorithm (e.g. 2k to 4k), and both a sharpener for scaling (e.g. 2k to 4k), and a sharpener for 4k content. The new scaling algorithm (without any sharpness turned on) increases the Radiance Pro scaling score on the Tektronix scaling analysis tester by about 10% and there is a noticeable increase in image detail.
> 
> I can post more at a later date, but everyone should realize that over-sharpening alters the director's intent. Making a distant object "sharp" is wrong since that is _not_ how it would look if you were there in person. Distant objects should be out of focus consistent with their distance from the observer. The same can be said when objects in motion are sharpened. You are reducing the intentional and necessary motion blur.
> 
> When you over-sharpen an image you create the dreaded "soap opera effect." The common complaint I hear from professionals about sharpening is that it makes the images look "artificial" and "over processed."
> 
> When a movie mastered in 2k is converted to UHD or HDR, the director/producer/grader decide on how sharp the resulting 4k images should be. They have the tools to really sharpen the images if they thought it was the right thing to do. However, you do not see this. An example I will likely discuss in more detail later is Skyfall. It was mastered in 2k and then up-sampled for the UHD version. The Radiance Pro scaling of the 2k version of Skyfall, without any sharpening, to my eyes looks essentially identical to the 4k UHD version. This is exactly what a scaling algorithm should do.
> 
> I do think there is a place for a small amount of sharpening to correct for detail lost in compression. For example Skyfall would have some additional detail if it was instead mastered in 4k. In addition, I think people would be surprised at how much high frequency detail is thrown out once the content is converted to the frequency-domain during the compression process. Looking at the "truncation matrix" for Luma and Chroma I have always been surprised at how good the images still can look after the high frequencies are reduced, or even tossed away. Trying to recover the lost detail makes sense, and that is what we are trying to achieve with the Radiance Pro sharpening we are working on.
> 
> One professional described (over) sharpening as "putting 10 spoon fulls of sugar in your coffee." It makes the images sickly-sweet. For the Radiance Pro we are working to recover lost detail with our sharpening algorithm, without making the mistake of over-sharpening the images. Our goal has always been, and will remain, studio reference standard image quality.


Looking forward to it! On a side note though, Skyfall was a 4K DI. It was shot with the Arri Alexa, so it was not a native 4K capture due to the camera limitations, but it was given a theatrical 4K grade from the camera capture (2.8K for the main Arri capture, and 5K for aerials). You can see that in the image below.


----------



## docrog

@jrp, under what menu will the new sharpening controls be located? Since Darbee is not considered to be a sharpening process, how would you expect your new sharpening algorithm to interact with Darbee? Would you advise disabling Darbee once the new firmware is released or are they potentially synergistic? Lastly, will the new firmware have any improvement in upscaling of 480 (DVD) content? Thanks!


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> The Radiance Pro scaling of the 2k version of Skyfall, without any sharpening, to my eyes looks essentially identical to the 4k UHD version. This is exactly what a scaling algorithm should do.


Are you referring this to the new upscaling algorithm? Upscaling, sharpening and 12 bit pipeline enhancement features - this is great news!!


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> Looking forward to it! On a side note though, Skyfall was a 4K DI. It was shot with the Arri Alexa, so it was not a native 4K capture due to the camera limitations, but it was given a theatrical 4K grade from the camera capture (2.8K for the main Arri capture, and 5K for aerials). You can see that in the image below.


Good information. I thought it was mastered at 2k. Thanks for the correction.

So most content started at 2.8k, and was up scaled to 4k for editing. I think my comment about the Pro scaling producing "essentially" the same image as the 4k UHD disc is actually more impressive based on this information.


----------



## EVH78

docrog said:


> @jrp, under what menu will the new sharpening controls be located?


It´s in the input config menu: select input config, Enhance, right underneath Darbeee. If you press Sharpness - "this menu not enabled yet will appear".


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> @jrp, under what menu will the new sharpening controls be located? Since Darbee is not considered to be a sharpening process, how would you expect your new sharpening algorithm to interact with Darbee? Would you advise disabling Darbee once the new firmware is released or are they potentially synergistic? Lastly, will the new firmware have any improvement in upscaling of 480 (DVD) content? Thanks!


The new enhancements will be in the enhancement menu. That is Input -> In Configs -> input_resolution -> input_resolution_memory -> Enhance -> Sharpness. So this will be a per-input, per-input-memory and per-input-resolution settings to you can optimize for every input resolution.

Darbee is a "contrast enhancer" and the new Pro enhancements are "edge enhancements." In the older Radiance models, and now confirmed in the Radiance Pro, used with a light touch the Darbee and edge enhancements are synergistic IMO. I personally prefer the edge enhancements, and I think if you turn the new edge enhancements up a bit more you might choose to turn off Darbee. However, used in moderation they can be on at the same time since they affect the image in different ways. 

I think this is one of those times that I have to send everyone off to experiment and report back once we release the edge enhancements. I think different people may well have different opinions. For example, I am doing testing with Darbee Off and I really like the results of using only the edge enhancements. However, for comparisons, I have my four memories set to:

MEMA: No enhancement
MEMB: New edge-enhancement only
MEMC: Darbee only
MEMD: Both

Note that if you want to do this once this is released you must select a different "input_resolution_memory" (0 to 7 available) for each input memory using the "Input Setup" menu. Don't forget to Save.

==== 

I have not spent much time on 480 or 576 content, but the edge enhancements do apply. However, a lot of SD content is low on detail, and high on noise. The edge enhancements work on detail. Since detail is lacking for SD content, little to work with. With a lot of SD content there is quite a lot of compression artifacts and image noise. The edge enhancements are happy to enhance artifacts and noise, which of course is not a good thing. I did look at a scene from "House of Flying Daggers" and the edge enhancement did improve the print on a cloth to some degree.


----------



## woofer

jrp said:


> We have been working on the pipeline enhancements now that we have the DTM in such great shape. We should have a release in about a week with an improved up-sampling algorithm (e.g. 2k to 4k), and both a sharpener for scaling (e.g. 2k to 4k), and a sharpener for 4k content. The new scaling algorithm (without any sharpness turned on) increases the Radiance Pro scaling score on the Tektronix scaling analysis tester by about 10% and there is a noticeable increase in image detail.





jrp said:


> We have been working on the pipeline enhancements now that we have the DTM in such great shape. We should have a release in about a week with an improved up-sampling algorithm (e.g. 2k to 4k), and both a sharpener for scaling (e.g. 2k to 4k), and a sharpener for 4k content. The new scaling algorithm (without any sharpness turned on) increases the Radiance Pro scaling score on the Tektronix scaling analysis tester by about 10% and there is a noticeable increase in image detail.


Excellent!!! VERY much looking forward to this...


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> The new enhancements will be in the enhancement menu. That is Input -> In Configs -> input_resolution -> input_resolution_memory -> Enhance -> Sharpness. So this will be a per-input, per-input-memory and per-input-resolution settings to you can optimize for every input resolution.
> 
> Darbee is a "contrast enhancer" and the new Pro enhancements are "edge enhancements." In the older Radiance models, and now confirmed in the Radiance Pro, used with a light touch the Darbee and edge enhancements are synergistic IMO. I personally prefer the edge enhancements, and I think if you turn the new edge enhancements up a bit more you might choose to turn off Darbee. However, used in moderation they can be on at the same time since they affect the image in different ways.
> 
> I think this is one of those times that I have to send everyone off to experiment and report back once we release the edge enhancements. I think different people may well have different opinions. For example, I am doing testing with Darbee Off and I really like the results of using only the edge enhancements. However, for comparisons, I have my four memories set to:
> 
> MEMA: No enhancement
> MEMB: New edge-enhancement only
> MEMC: Darbee only
> MEMD: Both
> 
> Note that if you want to do this once this is released you must select a different "input_resolution_memory" (0 to 7 available) for each input memory using the "Input Setup" menu. Don't forget to Save.
> 
> ====
> 
> I have not spent much time on 480 or 576 content, but the edge enhancements do apply. However, a lot of SD content is low on detail, and high on noise. The edge enhancements work on detail. Since detail is lacking for SD content, little to work with. With a lot of SD content there is quite a lot of compression artifacts and image noise. The edge enhancements are happy to enhance artifacts and noise, which of course is not a good thing. I did look at a scene from "House of Flying Daggers" and the edge enhancement did improve the print on a cloth to some degree.


Thank you, as always, Jim, for your very thorough response. Quick question: I believe that the right arrow on the remote (Darbee by default) can be reassigned to various ARs as of recent firmware updates. Would it be possible (in the upcoming firmware release) to have the user be able to redefine the remote's left arrow to map to the edge enhancement? If so (which would be great) it would mean that adjustments for both Darbee and edge enhancement could be made on the fly, rather than entering the menus just to make incremental changes based on video content.


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> Are you referring this to the new upscaling algorithm? Upscaling, sharpening and 12 bit pipeline enhancement features - this is great news!!


We are increasing precision of sections of logic being "touched" as they are worked on. For now this is the edge enhancement which touches some parts of the scaler. However, not all of the scaler is being worked on for the enhancement efforts. Over the next few months we will be updating more of the "10-bit section" of the pipeline to be 12 plus bits.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thank you, as always, Jim, for your very thorough response. Quick question: I believe that the right arrow on the remote (Darbee by default) can be reassigned to various ARs as of recent firmware updates. Would it be possible (in the upcoming firmware release) to have the user be able to redefine the remote's left arrow to map to the edge enhancement? If so (which would be great) it would mean that adjustments for both Darbee and edge enhancement could be made on the fly, rather than entering the menus just to make incremental changes based on video content.


The Left Arrow on the remote is pretty much reserved for the DTM parameters now. However, I have been thinking the right arrow could have an option to be the enhancements in place of, or in addition to, Darbee. I think we might make right-arrow default to enhancements for 4k content since Darbee does not apply. For 2k content we could simplify the Darbee "right arrow" menu item (perhaps "HD" only, on/off, and level) and then add the enhancement controls in the same menu.

First step will be to get the enhancement into a release and depending on timing we may add the menu tweaks later.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> The Left Arrow on the remote is pretty much reserved for the DTM parameters now. However, I have been thinking the right arrow could have an option to be the enhancements in place of, or in addition to, Darbee. I think we might make right-arrow default to enhancements for 4k content since Darbee does not apply. For 2k content we could simplify the Darbee "right arrow" menu item (perhaps "HD" only, on/off, and level) and then add the enhancement controls in the same menu.
> 
> First step will be to get the enhancement into a release and depending on timing we may add the menu tweaks later.


If you have the option to be flexible with the re-mapping of that right arrow, please don't disable the Darbee menu but, instead, make edge enhancement IN ADDITION TO Darbee if at all possible.


----------



## riddle

Some new interesting reading about Lumagen Radiance PRO:








Lumagen HighEnd Videoprozessor ab sofort bei uns in der Vorführung - Neues Video veröffentlicht


Hier ist der Testbericht der AudioVision 12/2020 1220_LUMAGEN_RADIANCE_PRO-1 Wir haben lange abgewartet und jetzt ist es soweit. Ab…




www.grobi.tv





LEFT JVC N5 Lumagen (1D+3DLUT) and Right JVC N7


----------



## audioguy

WOW!! Big differences, particularly the middle images!


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> Some new interesting reading about Lumagen Radiance PRO:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen HighEnd Videoprozessor ab sofort bei uns in der Vorführung - Neues Video veröffentlicht
> 
> 
> Hier ist der Testbericht der AudioVision 12/2020 1220_LUMAGEN_RADIANCE_PRO-1 Wir haben lange abgewartet und jetzt ist es soweit. Ab…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.grobi.tv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LEFT JVC N5 Lumagen (1D+3DLUT) and Right JVC N7


Looks like some setup issues are resulting in some clipping?


----------



## riddle

Kris Deering said:


> Looks like some setup issues are resulting in some clipping?


Thats i dont know...


----------



## riddle

Did anyone hear about the JVC promo with the Z1/RS4500 and Lumagen? One of my friends bought another JVC directly from the Japan distribution and with it he received device Lumagen Radiance. I asked him if he can look on the box whats exactly is the model and if its really a Lumagen Radiance PRO.


----------



## OzHDHT

riddle said:


> Did anyone hear about the JVC promo with the Z1/RS4500 and Lumagen? One of my friends bought another JVC directly from the Japan distribution and with it he received device Lumagen Radiance. I asked him if he can look on the box whats exactly is the model and if its really a Lumagen Radiance PRO.


Yeah that combo was being promoted quite extensively in the US not long ago. Had no idea it was being offered in outside territories. Not a bad thing though if they are - you just won't get Kris' calibration!


----------



## riddle

I think this greate move from JVC add Lumagen radiance PRO to their set.


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> Looks like some setup issues are resulting in some clipping?


Absolutely correct, sir! All of the details / nuances within the light-beam have vanished in the first picture...


----------



## Kris Deering

EVH78 said:


> Absolutely correct, sir! All of the details / nuances within the light-beam have vanished in the first picture...


I've seen plenty of tests with Lumagen's where the people doing the tests have no idea how to properly setup a Lumagen. That is not a proper representation. I can guarantee that the Lumagen solution when setup properly outperforms the JVC tone mapping regardless of content.


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> Did anyone hear about the JVC promo with the Z1/RS4500 and Lumagen? One of my friends bought another JVC directly from the Japan distribution and with it he received device Lumagen Radiance. I asked him if he can look on the box whats exactly is the model and if its really a Lumagen Radiance PRO.


There was never a sales promotion with the RS4500 and Lumagen here in the states. JVC released a sheet to dealers saying that if you're looking to get the best possible performance from their flagship 4500 that pairing it with a Lumagen will deliver that (and having it calibrated by me (Deep Dive AV). But they were not doing sales bundles. Dealers that sell both could promote this as a solution, but that was it. There was no business arrangement, it was more of a promotional thing to make dealers aware of solutions for their clients.


----------



## woofer

Kris Deering said:


> I've seen plenty of tests with Lumagen's where the people doing the tests have no idea how to properly setup a Lumagen. That is not a proper representation. I can guarantee that the *Lumagen solution when setup properly outperforms the JVC tone mapping regardless of content.
> *




Absolutley !!! Done this comparison many times , the JVC solution is OK , but it is far from what the Lumagen achieves with DTM!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kris

In the UK it's slightly different. One of my dealers in London showed JVC Europe how much better their demo Z1 was after i'd installed a Radiance Pro with it a couple of years ago. So JVC Europe purchased Pro's from me and sell them with Z1's as a bundle. In fact i know they are selling them with N9's as well as i keep turning up to calibrate N9's and there's a Radiance Pro in the rack..lol....


----------



## tigerhonaker

Gordon Fraser said:


> Kris
> 
> In the UK it's slightly different. One of my dealers in London showed JVC Europe how much better their demo Z1 was after i'd installed a Radiance Pro with it a couple of years ago. So JVC Europe purchased Pro's from me and sell them with Z1's as a bundle. In fact i know they are selling them with N9's as well as i keep turning up to calibrate N9's and there's a Radiance Pro in the rack..lol....


Smart decision and that way it's all done and completed in one Swoop !!!

Terry


----------



## BondDonBond

I just want to say as I get Old, Fat and Lazy  putting the Lumagen in my system (even though it cost almost as much as my projector) was a great decision this year. I am impressed with both JVC and Lumagen and selling a product that is being improved upon to the limits of the hardware involved. Not just sell it and buy a new one if you want those features.I don't really care if it is the best of the best, but keep improving. Been burned there so many times in this hobby where the best of the best 2 years later is so so and the manufactures don't care buy the new one. Keep up the good work guys!


----------



## ShaharT

Purley a thought experiment question. I've ordered the Sony GTZ380 that's 100% P3 and 10,000 Lumens.
Does this negate the need of my beloved Lumagen, at least when it comes to DTM? Having both the lumens and the color gamut - my naive thinking is that no DTM should be needed as all colors and the spec level could be displayed at the same time. Of course, the Lumagen is still super useful in scaling, aspect-ratio, and more.
Am I misunderstanding something basic about not having to need DTM if your projector covers the HDR spec fully?
(Yes, I do know it's P3 and not BT2020, but all HDR movies I'm aware of are delivered in P3).

I'll only receive the GTZ380 in January, and there's so little information about it online yet (no review, no impressions, just a couple of Sony's promotional videos) that I'm racking my brain (that's part of the fun, isn't it?) and what it's going to act like.


----------



## EVH78

It could be very well that the GTZ380 will be bright enough for HDR itself but since DTM analyzes metadate in realtime it should be better and more precise anyway. I mean just look at all the crushing and clipping we had on previous UHD titles (The MEG etc..) Plus the Lumagen is far better than the Sony HDR contrast enhancer!

I AM OFFICIALLY JEALOUS NOW!


----------



## ccool96

ShaharT said:


> Purley a thought experiment question. I've ordered the Sony GTZ380 that's 100% P3 and 10,000 Lumens.
> Does this negate the need of my beloved Lumagen, at least when it comes to DTM? Having both the lumens and the color gamut - my naive thinking is that no DTM should be needed as all colors and the spec level could be displayed at the same time. Of course, the Lumagen is still super useful in scaling, aspect-ratio, and more.
> Am I misunderstanding something basic about not having to need DTM if your projector covers the HDR spec fully?
> (Yes, I do know it's P3 and not BT2020, but all HDR movies I'm aware of are delivered in P3).
> 
> I'll only receive the GTZ380 in January, and there's so little information about it online yet (no review, no impressions, just a couple of Sony's promotional videos) that I'm racking my brain (that's part of the fun, isn't it?) and what it's going to act like.


Trust me, you will absolutely still want the Lumagen. Even someone buying the Christie Eclipse would still want the Lumagen. DTM isn’t just something nice to have, it’s an absolute necessity for projectors. Regardless of how bright the projector. 

Even with 10,000 lumens, on a reasonably large screen you are still a long long way off from 1000nit image. And some HDR titles are 4000nit or even 10,000nit. 

For example. My 5000ES on a 14’ wide 1.0 gain screen will give me about 35fl or 125 nits. The GTZ380 on the same screen would give me around 75fl or 250nits. That figuring for about 8000 lumens which is a 10% reduction after color calibration. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ShaharT

ccool96 said:


> Trust me, you will absolutely still want the Lumagen. Even someone buying the Christie Eclipse would still want the Lumagen. DTM isn’t just something nice to have, it’s an absolute necessity for projectors. Regardless of how bright the projector.
> 
> Even with 10,000 lumens, on a reasonably large screen you are still a long long way off from 1000nit image. And some HDR titles are 4000nit or even 10,000nit.
> 
> For example. My 5000ES on a 14’ wide 1.0 gain screen will give me about 35fl or 125 nits. The GTZ380 on the same screen would give me around 75fl or 250nits. That figuring for about 8000 lumens which is a 10% reduction after color calibration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks! All clear now. Appreciate the clear explanation.


----------



## Ash Sharma

ccool96 said:


> For example. My 5000ES on a 14’ wide 1.0 gain screen will give me about 35fl or 125 nits. The GTZ380 on the same screen would give me around 75fl or 250nits. That figuring for about 8000 lumens which is a 10% reduction after color calibration.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Totally love my Lumagen and especially the awesome updates and service from Jim Peterson.

My VW5000 DCR combo gives me 90 Nits at Full Laser on a 14. foot wide ST100 AT Screen calibrated by Kris Deering.
Fully Calibrated 5000 drops to 4000 Lumens at Full Laser.

The GTZ on the other hand is 'advertised' 10,000 Lumens fully calibrated to D65 (the. profs will be in the pudding) and that is 2.5. times as bright as the 5000.

The GTZ is stated to have internal DTM using the X1 Ultimate for Projector Processor - how that compares as compared to the Lumagen DTM will decide whether the Lumagen will be needed for DTM with the GTZ.

With the VW5000 Lumagen recommends not to use Laser Dimming (which improves 'Perceived Contrast' greatly for the 5000) as Laser Dimming messes up with Lumagen DTM Processing. 

If the GTZ DTM is equivalent to Lumagen DTM then the added Laser Dimming of the GTZ on top will improve the 'Perceived Contrast' which people complain about in the 5000.

Lumagen does many many more things than DTM ... so it will still be needed by most.

Until someone like Arrow or Kris don't get one GTZ in their hands and give a full review - its all speculation.


----------



## ShaharT

Ash Sharma said:


> Totally love my Lumagen and especially the awesome updates and service from Jim Peterson.
> 
> My VW5000 DCR combo gives me 90 Nits at Full Laser on a 14. foot wide ST100 AT Screen calibrated by Kris Deering.
> Fully Calibrated 5000 drops to 4000 Lumens at Full Laser.
> 
> The GTZ on the other hand is 'advertised' 10,000 Lumens fully calibrated to D65 (the. profs will be in the pudding) and that is 2.5. times as bright as the 5000.
> 
> The GTZ is stated to have internal DTM using the X1 Ultimate for Projector Processor - how that compares as compared to the Lumagen DTM will decide whether the Lumagen will be needed for DTM with the GTZ.
> 
> With the VW5000 Lumagen recommends not to use Laser Dimming (which improves 'Perceived Contrast' greatly for the 5000) as Laser Dimming messes up with Lumagen DTM Processing.
> 
> If the GTZ DTM is equivalent to Lumagen DTM then the added Laser Dimming of the GTZ on top will improve the 'Perceived Contrast' which people complain about in the 5000.
> 
> Lumagen does many many more things than DTM ... so it will still be needed by most.
> 
> Until someone like Arrow or Kris don't get one GTZ in their hands and give a full review - its all speculation.


Couldn't agree more. The Lumagen auto aspect ratio for one and handling of the Paladin DCR makes it golden. With many more features, I use daily and find so helpful.

Not to mention the unparalleled constant improvements they keep making - I have never seen any vendor with such passion to their product and such dedication to improving it. So whichever way the GTZ380 operates on its DTM, my Lumagen is a keeper. As an aside, I've been reading with great interest the Lumagen vs. Envy thread that Arrow started, and being curious about adding an Envy at the end of the chain, with the Lumagen being first in the chain. 

But above all else, I'm waiting for someone like Kris, Arrow (or another pro) to provide us with a review of the GTZ380 once someone finally receives a unit. Hopefuly I won't get buyer's remorse after reading their review, as I'm sure such a review will appear before I receive my unit. Counting the day to January when it should arrive...


----------



## sor

Ash Sharma said:


> Totally love my Lumagen and especially the awesome updates and service from Jim Peterson.
> 
> My VW5000 DCR combo gives me 90 Nits at Full Laser on a 14. foot wide ST100 AT Screen calibrated by Kris Deering.
> Fully Calibrated 5000 drops to 4000 Lumens at Full Laser.
> 
> The GTZ on the other hand is 'advertised' 10,000 Lumens fully calibrated to D65 (the. profs will be in the pudding) and that is 2.5. times as bright as the 5000.
> 
> The GTZ is stated to have internal DTM using the X1 Ultimate for Projector Processor - how that compares as compared to the Lumagen DTM will decide whether the Lumagen will be needed for DTM with the GTZ.
> 
> With the VW5000 Lumagen recommends not to use Laser Dimming (which improves 'Perceived Contrast' greatly for the 5000) as Laser Dimming messes up with Lumagen DTM Processing.
> 
> If the GTZ DTM is equivalent to Lumagen DTM then the added Laser Dimming of the GTZ on top will improve the 'Perceived Contrast' which people complain about in the 5000.
> 
> Lumagen does many many more things than DTM ... so it will still be needed by most.
> 
> Until someone like Arrow or Kris don't get one GTZ in their hands and give a full review - its all speculation.


How do you feel about the 90 nits? Is it plenty of brightness for you or are you wishing for an upgrade? I’d suspect with the DTM solution it is probably amazing but just wondering if you’re thinking about the GTZ.


----------



## Ash Sharma

sor said:


> How do you feel about the 90 bits? Is it plenty of brightness for you or are you wishing for an upgrade? I’d suspect with the DTM solution it is probably amazing but just wondering if you’re thinking about the GTZ.


The 90 Nits with Lumagen DTM is a awesome picture - I could switch my Screen Material to ST 130 G4 and get another 30% (on paper) brightness Boost to 110 nits or so.... but I love the purity of the ST100 Unity Gain Screen Material.
I have posted before - with Lumagen DTM and 90 Nits I am getting the Dolby Vision experience at Commercial ATMOS CINEMA (minus the blacks as Sony is short on the contrast) which I never imagined I could get at my home.
Chris and Art who have Stacked 5000 (two units) have written that the Lumen Increase makes a huge difference to image depth and cinema experience.
I posted on the GTZ thread that I am seriously thinking of getting the GTZ - one reason is also it is the most practical solution for me as its form factor is almost same at the VW5000.
With a separate Red Laser and the ability to run it at less that 100 Laser (as on the 5000 I run it at full laser and laser will eventually dim although I have only 550 Hours on the lamp presently) if I want to.
Also, I am expecting finally a good 3D picture with the GTZ in my Home Cinema.
For total 'perceived image' my guess the GTZ will have not just the twice the brighter image but it will be a greatly superior picture (many fold is my guess) than the VW5000 which is already an awesome picture with Lumagen DTM today.


----------



## Die Zwei

Ash Sharma said:


> The 90 Nits with Lumagen DTM is a awesome picture - I could switch my Screen Material to ST 130 G4 and get another 30% (on paper) brightness Boost to 110 nits or so.... but I love the purity of the ST100 Unity Gain Screen Material.


I seriously doubt that you would even notice the difference. 30% is just not enough to really make an impact. 
We recently had a 760ES run side-by-side to our showroom 5000ES because a customer (owning a 760) wanted to compare. The 760 not even has half the light output than the 5000ES.
During setup, it appeared that we had to ensure ourselves from time to time which projector was currently projecting because you adapt so quickly to the brightness you are currently looking at. After switching, the difference was always obvious, but after a few minutes you again start thinking "which one is currently running?"...


----------



## ShaharT

Ash Sharma said:


> The 90 Nits with Lumagen DTM is a awesome picture - I could switch my Screen Material to ST 130 G4 and get another 30% (on paper) brightness Boost to 110 nits or so.... but I love the purity of the ST100 Unity Gain Screen Material.
> I have posted before - with Lumagen DTM and 90 Nits I am getting the Dolby Vision experience at Commercial ATMOS CINEMA (minus the blacks as Sony is short on the contrast) which I never imagined I could get at my home.
> Chris and Art who have Stacked 5000 (two units) have written that the Lumen Increase makes a huge difference to image depth and cinema experience.
> I posted on the GTZ thread that I am seriously thinking of getting the GTZ - one reason is also it is the most practical solution for me as its form factor is almost same at the VW5000.
> With a separate Red Laser and the ability to run it at less that 100 Laser (as on the 5000 I run it at full laser and laser will eventually dim although I have only 550 Hours on the lamp presently) if I want to.
> Also, I am expecting finally a good 3D picture with the GTZ in my Home Cinema.
> For total 'perceived image' my guess the GTZ will have not just the twice the brighter image but it will be a greatly superior picture (many fold is my guess) than the VW5000 which is already an awesome picture with Lumagen DTM today.


I hope every word you write proves true, and it makes me even more excited to wait for my GTZ. What an upgrade it should prove over my current Sony 995 + DCR + Lumagen. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I for one do hope you decide to go for this projector as well.


----------



## sor

The GTZ380 is a beast, definitely need to consider cooling and power. 2kw of power to run it, and 4000BTUs!


----------



## Ash Sharma

sor said:


> The GTZ380 is a beast, definitely need to consider cooling and power. 2kw of power to run it, and 4000BTUs!


The BTU Rating of the GTZ is surprisingly the same as the VW 5000 (Big consideration for me as I am in Texas and my Theater is on 2nd Floor). The 5000 Runs 75 to 82F with my cooling system even on the 110F Days.

And 220V Power - My Car Lifts have that and it is easy to get a. circuit installed.


----------



## sor

Ash Sharma said:


> The BTU Rating of the GTZ is surprisingly the same as the VW 5000 (Big consideration for me as I am in Texas and my Theater is on 2nd Floor). The 5000 Runs 75 to 82F with my cooling system even on the 110F Days.
> 
> And 220V Power - My Car Lifts have that and it is easy to get a. circuit installed.


That is surprising considering the 5000 is supposed to be 1.2kw and the 380 2kw. Maybe these are just peak values and they expect the 380 to throw about as much light and heat as the 5000 on average content?


----------



## ccool96

Ash Sharma said:


> The GTZ on the other hand is 'advertised' 10,000 Lumens fully calibrated to D65 (the. profs will be in the pudding) and that is 2.5. times as bright as the 5000.
> 
> .


I don’t believe it quoted as being 10,000 lumens when fully calibrated to D65. It is just spec’d to be 10,000 lumens at 100% P3 because it doesn’t need a color filter. I would still expect some reduction for color calibration. 

The 5000ES would do 4000 lumens when color calibrated, but not with the notch filter. With the notch filter it was only about 3000 lumens at full P3. 
That’s why most people, both Sony and JVC owners, don’t use those filters. It just required one to give up too much light for a light increase in color gamut. 

So at rec709 I would expect the GTZ380 to have 2 times the output, but at 100% P3 it will be over 2.5 times as bright since there is no additional light loss to get to 100% P3 on the GTZ. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ash Sharma

ccool96 said:


> I don’t believe it quoted as being 10,000 lumens when fully calibrated to D65. It is just spec’d to be 10,000 lumens at 100% P3 because it doesn’t need a color filter. I would still expect some reduction for color calibration.


Chris - In Vincent Teoh's Interview with Sony (see YouTube) - the Sony person clearly stated and underscored that the GTZ is 10,000 Lumens's Calibrated to D65 and full DCI P3 without the filter.


----------



## blake

Ash Sharma said:


> The BTU Rating of the GTZ is surprisingly the same as the VW 5000 (Big consideration for me as I am in Texas and my Theater is on 2nd Floor). The 5000 Runs 75 to 82F with my cooling system even on the 110F Days.
> 
> And 220V Power - My Car Lifts have that and it is easy to get a. circuit installed.


Where is that 75 to 82F measured ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ccool96

Ash Sharma said:


> Chris - In Vincent Teoh's Interview with Sony (see YouTube) - the Sony person clearly stated and underscored that the GTZ is 10,000 Lumens's Calibrated to D65 and full DCI P3 without the filter.


Wow, If that’s truly the case that’s impressive. I don’t think I have ever seen any projector actually meet the stated lumens when fully color calibrated. 

Great news. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ash Sharma

blake said:


> Where is that 75 to 82F measured ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a Lumagen thread... so we need to keep that in Mind - and can take any 5000 related questions to that thread.
The Sony Menu System under Info shows Air Intake Temperature - there is a upper limit and if the intake hits that temperature the projector would shut down..
I also have a probe for my cooling system at the back of the projector (exhaust) with a digital read out and I have seen it at 115 at times.
And a Bluetooth temperature sensor kept on top of the projector near the intake which shows temperature of maximum 80F at times or lower - this has a IOS app with a alarm if it gets out of the set range.
My Hush box is barely enough to house a GTZ but has active cooling system which keeps the temperatures in check.


----------



## sor

This is probably answered elsewhere, and I did a search but didn’t come up with anything certain. Does the Lumagen Radiance Pro have a fan?

If so I think it would be the only thing in my stack with a fan, I’m hoping it’s not audible.


----------



## Kris Deering

sor said:


> This is probably answered elsewhere, and I did a search but didn’t come up with anything certain. Does the Lumagen Radiance Pro have a fan?
> 
> If so I think it would be the only thing in my stack with a fan, I’m hoping it’s not audible.


It has a fan but it is extremely quiet unless it isn't getting enough air flow. I have mine in an open rack just a few feet away and I can't hear it at all. I can hear the hard drive in my Strato or the disc spinning in my Oppo far better than anything in the Lumagen.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Guys,

I'm bringing this Latest-New Video to you below because I have purchased a few HT items that the below guy has done articles on.
He (Kris) tells it exactly as he sees it .............
He writes for *Sound & Vision *which is where I saw the articles on the *JVC RS4500 Laser Projector* and recently the *Stewart Filmscreen ST130 G4* material.

Well I just now saw a *"New Lumagen Video" *and guess who was doing the Major portion of the presentation ???

Times up ................

Kris Deering and if you haven't seen the below video I suggest doing so.

This is New guys,
*Sep 11, 2020*
*Lumagen Radiance Pro. Best Uses for Premium Home Theaters.




*

Terry


----------



## Kris Deering

tigerhonaker said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm bringing this Latest-New Video to you below because I have purchased a few HT items that the below guy has done articles on.
> He (Kris) tells it exactly as he sees it .............
> He writes for *Sound & Vision *which is where I saw the articles on the *JVC RS4500 Laser Projector* and recently the *Stewart Filmscreen ST130 G4* material.
> 
> Well I just now saw a *"New Lumagen Video" *and guess who was doing the Major portion of the presentation ???
> 
> Times up ................
> 
> Kris Deering and if you haven't seen the below video I suggest doing so.
> 
> This is New guys,
> *Sep 11, 2020*
> *Lumagen Radiance Pro. Best Uses for Premium Home Theaters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Terry


LOL. I recorded that awhile back and had actually never seen it before now! Dreammedia reached out to me about adding my services for their clients so they use me to get and setup Lumagen's for their clients and for calibration services. But nothing mentioned is exclusive to Dreammedia, I work directly with clients or with their dealers as well.


----------



## docrog

I believe that it was mentioned that ArrowAV had a forum devoted to comparing the Radiance Pro with the MadVR Envy. I've tried searching for it, without success. Can anyone provide that hyperlink? Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

It is the comparison thread in this video processor forum. But detailed comparisons have not been done yet.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> LOL. I recorded that awhile back and had actually never seen it before now! Dreammedia reached out to me about adding my services for their clients so they use me to get and setup Lumagen's for their clients and for calibration services. But nothing mentioned is exclusive to Dreammedia, I work directly with clients or with their dealers as well.


Kris, in your video interview you mention that, in comparison with JVC DTM, the Lumagen "knows exactly how bright your projector is". But isn't that only true for the bulb brightness at the time of calibration? In fact, won't the upcoming JVC DTM firmware update provide a bit more flexibility post-calibration by being able to choose among the 5 options for HDR as the bulb ages? I'm not suggesting that JVC does a better job with DTM than the Lumagen in the most difficult scenes (you've pointed out that the 2 are somewhat comparable in the majority of HDR content, as I've also found to be true), but it seems to me that, post-calibration, my only option with the Radiance Pro for an aging bulb would be to open the iris (which, depending on the number of "clicks" closed, may cause some alteration of gamma). It makes me wonder if Lumagen will ever be able to factor in screen brightness in a subsequent firmware update.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Kris, in your video interview you mention that, in comparison with JVC DTM, the Lumagen "knows exactly how bright your projector is". But isn't that only true for the bulb brightness at the time of calibration? In fact, won't the upcoming JVC DTM firmware update provide a bit more flexibility post-calibration by being able to choose among the 5 options for HDR as the bulb ages? I'm not suggesting that JVC does a better job with DTM than the Lumagen in the most difficult scenes (you've pointed out that the 2 are somewhat comparable in the majority of HDR content, as I've also found to be true), but it seems to me that, post-calibration, my only option with the Radiance Pro for an aging bulb would be to open the iris (which, depending on the number of "clicks" closed, may cause some alteration of gamma). It makes me wonder if Lumagen will ever be able to factor in screen brightness in a subsequent firmware update.


The Lumagen takes into account exactly how much light you have measured from the screen if installed to its full potential. This will always give you the best results. JVC's new firmware still has no way of knowing exactly how much light you have, it is still trying to make a best case decision based on the amount of info it has to work with. But even that is only so good. For example, if you have a 120" 1.3 gain screen and you enter that in (say 16x9 to keep it easy), you think the JVC should know exactly how bright that is without much issue. But that isn't the case. For one, many screen manufacturers misrepresent their true grain and many times that gain is only with the projector shooting directly at center in a parallel line. So right there you could be anywhere between 10-15% more off. Then there is lens shift for a different angle. And any calculation it is making based on lamp hours is based on some average, but could vary between unit to unit. So ultimately the Lumagen gives you more room for precision in this respect because it uses an actual value that takes all of this into account. Obviously the best results will be based on subsequent calibrations as the projector ages, but that is the case outside of tone mapping as well. There are plenty of things that shift over time with a projector.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> It is the comparison thread in this video processor forum. But detailed comparisons have not been done yet.


Found it. Thanks!


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> So ultimately the Lumagen gives you more room for precision in this respect because *it uses an actual value* that takes all of this into account.


Thanks, again, Kris. Could you enlighten me as to how & where the actual value is input for the Radiance Pro?


----------



## Kris Deering

Ideally the calibrator would measure peak nits off the screen during the calibration/install. Then ratios are used that are extrapolated from that value in the DISPLAY MAX LIGHT and also with the LOW RATIO settings. These can be seasoned to taste based on the preferences of the client or using the installer's expertise/experience.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Ideally the calibrator would measure peak nits off the screen during the calibration/install. Then ratios are used that are extrapolated from that value in the DISPLAY MAX LIGHT and also with the LOW RATIO settings. These can be seasoned to taste based on the preferences of the client or using the installer's expertise/experience.


OK, that's in keeping with my understanding: it's an extrapolated, rather than actual, value reflected in the Max Light value based on measured screen nits at the time of calibration. Since it's likely that I'll have annual calibrations, would you think a work around for interval bulb aging would be to manually select a different Max Light to compensate? If so, in which direction would you go, considering changes which have occurred with the recent firmware updates?


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> OK, that's in keeping with my understanding: it's an extrapolated, rather than actual, value reflected in the Max Light value based on measured screen nits at the time of calibration. Since it's likely that I'll have annual calibrations, would you think a work around for interval bulb aging would be to manually select a different Max Light to compensate? If so, in which direction would you go, considering changes which have occurred with the recent firmware updates?


If you are getting annual calibrations I would just leave it alone.


----------



## woofer

i just want to put forward a HUGE *"Thank You"* to @Kris Deering for his time and help over the last few days in relation to my 4242 Lumagen.

I have had the opportunity to use the NEW Beta firmware that is being worked on that introduces a new UP-Scaling refinements and also adds a sharpening feature to both UP-Scaling and native 4K content.

I am also madVR HTPC and Envy Extreme owner/user ...i am VERY VERY impressed with what the Lumagen is now achieving... more to follow...

Again THANKS..Kris.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> If you are getting annual calibrations I would just leave it alone.


Although I've had annual calibrations for many years, the problem is that, during these covid-19 times, I may not be able to find a high end (Lightspace competent) Lumagen calibrator who's available in my neck of the woods. That's why I was asking about the efficacy of changing the Max Light value rather than opening the iris with significant interval bulb aging.


----------



## docrog

woofer said:


> i just want to put forward a HUGE *"Thank You"* to @Kris Deering for his time and help over the last few days in relation to my 4242 Lumagen.
> 
> I have had the opportunity to use the NEW Beta firmware that is being worked on that introduces a new UP-Scaling refinements and also adds a sharpening feature to both UP-Scaling and native 4K content.
> 
> I am also madVR HTPC and Envy Extreme owner/user ...i am VERY VERY impressed with what the Lumagen is now achieving... more to follow...
> 
> Again THANKS..Kris.


I'm certainly not the only one who's very much looking forward to your A-B upscaling comparisons, especially because of @markmon1 who posted earlier today on another thread: "This used to be my thoughts as well, which is why for years I thought upscaling was worthless. But it turns out you actually _can_ reproduce what's missing from it to some degree, and madVR's upscaler does exactly that. That's the main difference between madVR's NGU upscaler and "the others". Once you see it in operation, you'd be convinced". I know that your thoughts comparing the upscaling and sharpening features in the upcoming Lumagen firmware to Envy will be entirely unbiased............


----------



## blake

docrog said:


> I'm certainly not the only one who's very much looking forward to your A-B upscaling comparisons, especially because of @markmon1 who posted earlier today on another thread: "This used to be my thoughts as well, which is why for years I thought upscaling was worthless. But it turns out you actually _can_ reproduce what's missing from it to some degree, and madVR's upscaler does exactly that. That's the main difference between madVR's NGU upscaler and "the others". Once you see it in operation, you'd be convinced". I know that your thoughts comparing the upscaling and sharpening features in the upcoming Lumagen firmware to Envy will be entirely unbiased............


Yep ! This proprietary NGU upscaling apparently can only be done with a GPU. I am very interested to see how it compares to the new and improved Lumagen algos!

At least in my use-case upscaling is super important. We still watch live ( IPTV) and streaming content in our home : >90% of this is still 1080p.


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## SJHT

I hope folks take any Lumagen vs Envy to the appropriate thread which was setup by @ARROW-AV.

VP comparison thread


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## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Although I've had annual calibrations for many years, the problem is that, during these covid-19 times, I may not be able to find a high end (Lightspace competent) Lumagen calibrator who's available in my neck of the woods. That's why I was asking about the efficacy of changing the Max Light value rather than opening the iris with significant interval bulb aging.


I'd still leave it unless you're racking up like a 1000 hours or you have a VERY noticeable change in overall brightness.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> I'd still leave it unless you're racking up like a 1000 hours or you have a VERY noticeable change in overall brightness.


Thanks for that advice, Kris. I'm currently putting about 850-900 hours on the bulb annually. It's at just under 1500 hours and at the last calibration (in March) the bulb had about 800 hours.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

As my dedicated home theater remodel has been slowed by various factors including coronavirus, I finally got around to moving my Kaleidescape Strata C 4k player (Terra Server upstairs in home office) and Alto 6TB (blu ray player) along with my Lumagen Radiance Pro down the basement into my early 1990’s 5.1 Polk in-wall system. I have there a 2019 LG C9 OLED 65”. Also a Panasonic UB820 and an ATV4k streamer.

Pre-Lumagen, I had the blu ray player to do its own tone mapping, and I’ve set that to off with the Lumagen down there now. The blu ray player also has four settings to brightness of tvs, with an OLED setting, a bright LCD setting, and an even brighter LCD setting. Question is what setting should I use now that I put the Lumagen down there for now – I assume that due to the Lumagen’s tone mapping that I use a brighter setting than simply the OLED one?

I have the 65” LED set at Cinema Home where if the set receives HDR, Dolby Vision, HDR 10+, it automatically shows this is being received. Of course, with Lumagen tone mapping, none of these HDRs will display on screen for the tv since Lumagen’s tone mapping converts to SDR.

Note I used “Menu 9 9 9” to revert my Radiance Pro to its default brand new settings (as prior settings were for my previous projector dedicated home theater setup.

WOW! Has Radiance Pro HDR tone mapping [email protected]@@ Looks really easy to setup now. I do have a few questions though re the settings at the HDR tonemapping menu of the Radiance Pro:

Under “Enable”, you can enable “Default”, “Off” and “On”. Does “Off” simply pass the incoming video unchanged? What does “Default” do? Am I correct that with my OLED, which I understand has about 450 nits output, “Enable” should be set to “On” to engage tonemapping?

Re the “Maxlight” Setting, when I entered it was set to 500. I recall from the Radiance Pro thread months ago a discussion on setting this to twice the brightness/nits of one’s video. So should this be set to 900 or even 1,000?

Re the “Gammaa2Lut” setting, choices are “SDR”, “HDR” and “Auto”. I assume “Auto”, as I assume HDR will then auto be output as SDR, or even “SDR” would work. Am I correct?

For those using the Radiance Pro for tonemappng with an OLED, what is your experience/evaluation re HDR source picture quality using the Radiance Pro vs allowing the video source to send video with HDR/Dolby Vision direct to the OLED tv?

Thanks.


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## Kris Deering

Honestly, I would not recommend using the Lumagen with a flat panel. I would let the flat panel due to the tone map, especially if it has Dolby Vision.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> Honestly, I would not recommend using the Lumagen with a flat panel. I would let the flat panel due to the tone map, especially if it has Dolby Vision.


For right now until me theater upgrade and renovation is ready to go (and for you to come out and calibrate video), if I want to watch Kaleidescape on my OLED, why not use the Lumagen with tone mapping as the picture will even be better. Now my blu ray player has some tone mapping so not as big a deal. And not a big deal on ATV4k as many 4k HD stuff has Dolby Vision as does my OLED. But Kaleidescape doesn't have any tone mapping and my understanding is Kaleidescape doesn't do Dolby Vision only HDR. I'm tired of holding off on watching some stuff on KScape - I can watch a movie and always watch good movie again once my theater is up and running!


----------



## Kris Deering

You don't have to wait at all. The C9 OLED can do the tone mapping for HDR just fine and you wouldn't be truncating anything that is available in Dolby Vision from other sources. The tone mapping in the Lumagen is designed around projectors and older TVs, but again, there is little to no reason to use it with a modern flat panel with HDR and especially not something as good as the C9 OLEDs.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> You don't have to wait at all. The C9 OLED can do the tone mapping for HDR just fine and you wouldn't be truncating anything that is available in Dolby Vision from other sources. The tone mapping in the Lumagen is designed around projectors and older TVs, but again, there is little to no reason to use it with a modern flat panel with HDR and especially not something as good as the C9 OLEDs.


Kris thanks. Great info.


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## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> You don't have to wait at all. The C9 OLED can do the tone mapping for HDR just fine and you wouldn't be truncating anything that is available in Dolby Vision from other sources. The tone mapping in the Lumagen is designed around projectors and older TVs, but again, there is little to no reason to use it with a modern flat panel with HDR and especially not something as good as the C9 OLEDs.


How about the LG G6? Still not worth it?


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> How about the LG G6? Still not worth it?


Not sure on that one. I haven't tested it and that is an older model (I think pre-Dolby Vision?).


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## Craig Peer

Now I'm waiting for the new firmware like a kid waiting for Xmas morning !


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## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure on that one. I haven't tested it and that is an older model (I think pre-Dolby Vision?).


They added DV in a later update. So maybe it's not worth it for DTM. I do the Darbee feature though and the Radiance Pro can apply it to 3D signal. Still, an expensive upgrade just for that.


----------



## feelthesound

Craig Peer said:


> Now I'm waiting for the new firmware like a kid waiting for Xmas morning !


Any news?


----------



## Kris Deering

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Kris thanks. Great info.


I want to clarify my comments from earlier Steve. When it comes to flat panels, HDR isn't really much of an issue and most of the newer panels support Dolby Vision if the input source does as well. The Radiance Pro does not, so you lose that feature, even if the Radiance is just passing through that signal. So from a tone mapping standpoint, I don't think the Radiance Pro is a big value add when paired with a more advanced flat panel like the C9. The C9 also has a full 1D and 3D LUT built in, so the calibration features of the Lumagen also don't really apply. You can still benefit from its scaling, aspect ratio support (NLS) and Darbee functionality, so there ARE benefits to a Radiance in front of a flat panel, but they don't present as much of a value proposition compared to projection setups IMHO. And again, depending on the input sources in use, it can take away some features like Dolby Vision support. The tone mapping in the Lumagen is fantastic, but so is Dolby Vision proper with Dolby Vision content so I don't see a lot of reason to recommend the Lumagen over DV. But in your case, with the Strato, there is no Dolby Vision content and the Radiance may do a better job with tone mapping than the flat panel when it comes to HDR10, but I think the differences will be slight at best (simply because flat panels don't really have to do a whole lot of tone mapping as is given their peak output and the LG's is quite good).


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Kris Deering said:


> I want to clarify my comments from earlier Steve. When it comes to flat panels, HDR isn't really much of an issue and most of the newer panels support Dolby Vision if the input source does as well. The Radiance Pro does not, so you lose that feature, even if the Radiance is just passing through that signal. So from a tone mapping standpoint, I don't think the Radiance Pro is a big value add when paired with a more advanced flat panel like the C9. The C9 also has a full 1D and 3D LUT built in, so the calibration features of the Lumagen also don't really apply. You can still benefit from its scaling, aspect ratio support (NLS) and Darbee functionality, so there ARE benefits to a Radiance in front of a flat panel, but they don't present as much of a value proposition compared to projection setups IMHO. And again, depending on the input sources in use, it can take away some features like Dolby Vision support. The tone mapping in the Lumagen is fantastic, but so is Dolby Vision proper with Dolby Vision content so I don't see a lot of reason to recommend the Lumagen over DV. But in your case, with the Strato, there is no Dolby Vision content and the Radiance may do a better job with tone mapping than the flat panel when it comes to HDR10, but I think the differences will be slight at best (simply because flat panels don't really have to do a whole lot of tone mapping as is given their peak output and the LG's is quite good).


Kris,

As always, you are spot on.

The real reason I put the Radiance Pro with my basement OLED system (while my dedicated theater using it is down) is because I have a Kaleidescape Strato C player and also Alto 6tb which both connect to the Radiance Pro inputs 1 and 3 and then both 4k and blu ray output from the Strato C to Radiance Pro input 1. I had thought I needed to use the Radiance Pro in order to continue this in my basement. However, after your advise, I realized I do not need the Radiance Pro, and that simply by the HDMI from the Strato C into my receiver I will get the KScape picture for whatever I watch!

Last night I watched KScape 4k HDR "Joker". I've also watched some of "Blue Planet II 4k disc on blu ray player. I looked at a few other KScape movies like "2001" that I 've recently watched with the OLED. Bottom line is the Radiance Pro with tone mapping is very close with the OLED where its hard to distinguish. And "Joker" is such a great movie for this comparison with its great black levels yet colorful scenes and detail. And from a calibration standpoint I find with the room dark using the OLED in Cinema Home that the picture looks great colorwise, even without your expert calibration! And this is on both KScape and the Panasonic UB820 4k player.

I do think on HD sources the Radiance Pro does a better job upscaling to 4k, but not so significant as to pay for another Radiance Pro several times as expensive as my OLED (which I got on sale last November for $1900 including tax, a great deal). And of course Lumagen is going in improve the sharpening to 4k which is a benefit some may want - Darbee for HD is not something I use anymore anyway.

And of course without the Radiance Pro in the chain, a big added benefit is when I turn on my Apple TV 4k, it auto turns on the receiver and the OLED; and when I turn off the Apple TV 4k, it auto turns them off. Really simplifies things.

Thanks for the great explanations.

I had a nice chat with Jim Peterson today, who pretty much reiterated what you have said here. Jim also answered my question re "Maxlight" setting to twice flat panel/OLED light output/capability but 4-5 times for projectors. And I had this right anyway!


----------



## ShaharT

When I project (sony 995) using a DCR Paladin lens via the Lumagen, on a 2.4 score a/r screen, showing 16:9 content, and I set the projector zoom to precisely fill the left & right sides of the screen - I need to add (on the Lumagen -> Style setting) exactly 2% shrink on top & on the bottom, for the image to 100% fit and fill the fabric of the screen. Ffor example using Apple TV overscaning / geometry pattern. And other sources with similar test patterns.

Is this normal? My need for perfection demands I get 'the whole' picture inside the frame. Is there a better way or did I come by the right approach? The same method works spot on when the image is fully open to 2.4 content. Thank you.


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## MDesigns

ShaharT said:


> When I project (sony 995) using a DCR Paladin lens via the Lumagen, on a 2.4 score a/r screen, showing 16:9 content, and I set the projector zoom to precisely fill the left & right sides of the screen - I need to add (on the Lumagen -> Style setting) exactly 2% shrink on top & on the bottom, for the image to 100% fit and fill the fabric of the screen. Ffor example using Apple TV overscaning / geometry pattern. And other sources with similar test patterns.
> 
> Is this normal? My need for perfection demands I get 'the whole' picture inside the frame. Is there a better way or did I come by the right approach? The same method works spot on when the image is fully open to 2.4 content. Thank you.


I think it has been said before that the DCR is not perfectly 2.4:1. Was it 2.38:1 or something like that which would explain it. Is "shrink" like masking and doesn't scale the picture?


----------



## ShaharT

MDesigns said:


> I think it has been said before that the DCR is not perfectly 2.4:1. Was it 2.38:1 or something like that which would explain it. Is "shrink" like masking and doesn't scale the picture?


Jim recently posted he changed his recommendation to using 2.4 output a/r on a 2.4 screen when using DCR. From a previous 2.37. About shrink: it's not like masking, it changes the geometry by 'shrinking' the image (which conceptually I hate, but technically it works great). I hope someone like Kris, Jim or other DCR users would share how they handle this.


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## Kris Deering

ShaharT said:


> Jim recently posted he changed his recommendation to using 2.4 output a/r on a 2.4 screen when using DCR. From a previous 2.37. About shrink: it's not like masking, it changes the geometry by 'shrinking' the image (which conceptually I hate, but technically it works great). I hope someone like Kris, Jim or other DCR users would share how they handle this.


DCR lens makes the image 2.37, not 2.4. So you can either overscan the top and bottom and fill full width or you can set the zoom using top and bottom and have small bars to the side.


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## dlinsley

Shawn Kelly described to me that the DCR has a little adjustability of the aspect ratio. Since my screen is 2.37:1 I didn't get around to playing with it.



> Because the DCR aspect ratio is adjustable you can still fill the screen with that Radiance-stretched movie but there may still be some strips of unused pixels at top and bottom that would end up on the screen border. I recommend taking known 2.4:1 movie, just filling the full screen width again with the 4096 width with no excessive overscan, then experimenting with the Radiance setting that creates the tallest image without cutting anything off. If that ends up using more vertical pixels than before then when you adjust the lens to fit the movie onto the screen you’ll be concentrating more pixels onto the screen area which will increase the brightness.


I didn't realize the aspect ratio is adjustable! Is that via tilt, or move the lens away/closer to the projector? 


> Via the lens tilt / V-shift procedure


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## ShaharT

Kris Deering said:


> DCR lens makes the image 2.37, not 2.4. So you can either overscan the top and bottom and fill full width or you can set the zoom using top and bottom and have small bars to the side.


Thank you. I remember Jon posted here a while ago (I'll try finding his post) that he has changed his recommendation when using DCR Paladin, and now recommends setting default AR to 2.4, and 'shrinking' the top and bottom. I could have dreamed that post though  let's see if I can find it.


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## ShaharT

I love what the Lumagen DTM already does so much, I just had to share these few photos I just took.









8 new items by Shahar Tzafrir







photos.google.com





With all the usual caveats, a phone camera etc. It's from Spears & Munsil most intense clip - 10,000 NITS clip.
The difference of DTM on/off are night and day imho.


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## Kris Deering

ShaharT said:


> Thank you. I remember Jon posted here a while ago (I'll try finding his post) that he has changed his recommendation when using DCR Paladin, and now recommends setting default AR to 2.4, and 'shrinking' the top and bottom. I could have dreamed that post though  let's see if I can find it.


Yes, you can use the SHRINK function in the Lumagen to fill the screen vertically without any cropping, but this can introduce some scaling artifacts depending on the content because of the small amount of adjustment. I find that most DCR users use a small amount of overscan/cropping to hide the slight bend in the image caused by the lens itself anyways, so more often than not the overscan is not a big deal.


----------



## ShaharT

Y/C Delay* Range: *+/- 1.9375 pixels in 1/16 steps
Adjusts the horizontal Chroma timing in relation to Luma using a Y/C-delay calibration image. The CB and CR channels are adjusted independently.
Use a test pattern generator or a test pattern disc sent through the source device.
The command is: MENU → Input → In Configs → [Resolution] → [#] → Picture → YC Delay
What test pattern would one use to align Y/C delay? Is it related to chroma issues one can see on the Spears & Munsil UHD test disc?


----------



## uderman

Kris Deering said:


> I want to clarify my comments from earlier Steve. When it comes to flat panels, HDR isn't really much of an issue and most of the newer panels support Dolby Vision if the input source does as well. The Radiance Pro does not, so you lose that feature, even if the Radiance is just passing through that signal. So from a tone mapping standpoint, I don't think the Radiance Pro is a big value add when paired with a more advanced flat panel like the C9. The C9 also has a full 1D and 3D LUT built in, so the calibration features of the Lumagen also don't really apply. You can still benefit from its scaling, aspect ratio support (NLS) and Darbee functionality, so there ARE benefits to a Radiance in front of a flat panel, but they don't present as much of a value proposition compared to projection setups IMHO. And again, depending on the input sources in use, it can take away some features like Dolby Vision support. The tone mapping in the Lumagen is fantastic, but so is Dolby Vision proper with Dolby Vision content so I don't see a lot of reason to recommend the Lumagen over DV. But in your case, with the Strato, there is no Dolby Vision content and the Radiance may do a better job with tone mapping than the flat panel when it comes to HDR10, but I think the differences will be slight at best (simply because flat panels don't really have to do a whole lot of tone mapping as is given their peak output and the LG's is quite good).


Hi Kris,

Good points here. I would also like to add the great dithering on the Lumagen Radiance Pro which improves video by a little bit, especially more noticeable on less than stellar 4K sources like Netflix 4K via ATV4K.


Steve, I believe you were taking advantage of the CoStar functionality of the Lumagen Radiance Pro with Kaleidescape units. CoStar is sold as a separate box from Kscape or you can use your Radiance Pro. It allows your Strato to use its 4K GUI to browse combined libraries and seamlessly switch to Alto unit when you choose a movie on the Alto.

Your LG C9 likely has more than 700 nits peak but might be limited to much less in SDR mode. I own a Sony A1E OLED. I measured 720 nits in HDR but half that in SDR. For Lumagen tone mapping to work adequately, it needs to output SDR which means much lower peak brightness. So not only you lose Dolby Vision support but likely some brightness too (unless you disable DTM and output HDR but still no DV pass through).


----------



## Kris Deering

uderman said:


> Steve, I believe you were taking advantage of the CoStar functionality of the Lumagen Radiance Pro with Kaleidescape units. CoStar is sold as a separate box from Kscape or you can use your Radiance Pro. It allows your Strato to use its 4K GUI to browse combined libraries and seamlessly switch to Alto unit when you choose a movie on the Alto.


Just an FYI, that isn't how the costar works if the system is a STRATO/ALTO costar setup. When you play content that is downloaded on the ALTO OR STRATO, it is always played out of the Strato (through the network connection of the two). The ONLY time you use the costar in this setup is if you are actually playing a spinning disc in the Alto. The costar is needed for older solutions like the Cinema One and such. I have a Strato/Alto system and have confirmed my statement above.


----------



## uderman

Kris Deering said:


> Just an FYI, that isn't how the costar works if the system is a STRATO/ALTO costar setup. When you play content that is downloaded on the ALTO OR STRATO, it is always played out of the Strato (through the network connection of the two). The ONLY time you use the costar in this setup is if you are actually playing a spinning disc in the Alto. The costar is needed for older solutions like the Cinema One and such. I have a Strato/Alto system and have confirmed my statement above.


Thanks for the correction. I believe costar was designed for Strato/Premiere integration but also works with Alta as you described.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

uderman said:


> Hi Kris,
> 
> Good points here. I would also like to add the great dithering on the Lumagen Radiance Pro which improves video by a little bit, especially more noticeable on less than stellar 4K sources like Netflix 4K via ATV4K.
> 
> 
> Steve, I believe you were taking advantage of the CoStar functionality of the Lumagen Radiance Pro with Kaleidescape units. CoStar is sold as a separate box from Kscape or you can use your Radiance Pro. It allows your Strato to use its 4K GUI to browse combined libraries and seamlessly switch to Alto unit when you choose a movie on the Alto.
> 
> Your LG C9 likely has more than 700 nits peak but might be limited to much less in SDR mode. I own a Sony A1E OLED. I measured 720 nits in HDR but half that in SDR. For Lumagen tone mapping to work adequately, it needs to output SDR which means much lower peak brightness. So not only you lose Dolby Vision support but likely some brightness too (unless you disable DTM and output HDR but still no DV pass through).





Kris Deering said:


> Just an FYI, that isn't how the costar works if the system is a STRATO/ALTO costar setup. When you play content that is downloaded on the ALTO OR STRATO, it is always played out of the Strato (through the network connection of the two). The ONLY time you use the costar in this setup is if you are actually playing a spinning disc in the Alto. The costar is needed for older solutions like the Cinema One and such. I have a Strato/Alto system and have confirmed my statement above.


Yes, I discovered exactly this. I had the Radiance Pro, Strato C and Alto hooked up, when I first got the Alto 2 months ago, in my bedroom with an old LG 55" non-HDR 4k tv. But only so I could catalog all of my discs!

So I moved these to my basement 5.1 system thinking I had to use the Lumagen with them to get the benefits of Costar and to watch Kaleidescape 4k and blu ray stuff. After Kris' educational comments, I took the Lumagen out of the basement system, and I find that simply having both Strato C and Alto connected via ethernet down there, I get all video 4k, blu ray and DVD - the full KScape menu for my combined Strato C and Alto system - showing up and I can play everything, output from the Strato C!

And yea I've noticed that the picture is as good or better without the Radiance with this OLED for 4k HDR stuff. I think the Lumagen holds some advantage for HD upscaling, but this is easily outweighed for me by the simplicity of being able to use one remote to turn stuff on and off without doing a bunch of programming say for a Harmony Elite universal remote.

If my LG C9 OLED probably has in excess of 700 nits, then I take it that I should set "maxlight" at 1400 or even 1500, whereas I was assuming it was 450 nits (I read that somewhere) and I set maxlight at 900. I found a review stating the C9 with HDT does have birghtness in excess of 700 nits: LG OLED CX vs OLED C9 Review - What are their Differences? However, this is moot now, as based on Kris' advise, I've taken the Lumagen out of the basement system, and it will go back in to my dedicated home theater when its upgrade and renovation is ready for this.


----------



## fatherom

Wanted to get people's opinions before I bug the folks at lumagen since I know sometimes my settings or config may be off. 

I'm running dtm level at 1 (instead of the default 3) and desat at low (not auto). Running the latest fw. 

I've noticed something lately that seems like it could be a dtm issue. I watched 4k discs of kick ass and Star Trek (2009) and whiplash. The first two films are highly stylized visually and experience the problem more often, but whiplash had it in a couple spots. 

As the camera switches within a scene, I notice brief moments of a washed out image (slightly drained of color, like when you see screenshots of an hdr 4k disc that haven't been tonemapped). These brief moments are surrounded by images that are vibrant and "normal" looking. 

Star Trek had it a lot and I was speculating that all the crazy lens flares and flashes in that movie may be confusing the dtm algorithm?

Just wondering if others have noticed this over the last month. I can go back and try to get some time stamps if need be. Right now, it's a general behavior I've been noticing more lately than in past months with older firmwares. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uderman

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Yes, I discovered exactly this. I had the Radiance Pro, Strato C and Alto hooked up, when I first got the Alto 2 months ago, in my bedroom with an old LG 55" non-HDR 4k tv. But only so I could catalog all of my discs!
> 
> So I moved these to my basement 5.1 system thinking I had to use the Lumagen with them to get the benefits of Costar and to watch Kaleidescape 4k and blu ray stuff. After Kris' educational comments, I took the Lumagen out of the basement system, and I find that simply having both Strato C and Alto connected via ethernet down there, I get all video 4k, blu ray and DVD - the full KScape menu for my combined Strato C and Alto system - showing up and I can play everything, output from the Strato C!
> 
> And yea I've noticed that the picture is as good or better without the Radiance with this OLED for 4k HDR stuff. I think the Lumagen holds some advantage for HD upscaling, but this is easily outweighed for me by the simplicity of being able to use one remote to turn stuff on and off without doing a bunch of programming say for a Harmony Elite universal remote.
> 
> If my LG C9 OLED probably has in excess of 700 nits, then I take it that I should set "maxlight" at 1400 or even 1500, whereas I was assuming it was 450 nits (I read that somewhere) and I set maxlight at 900. I found a review stating the C9 with HDT does have birghtness in excess of 700 nits: LG OLED CX vs OLED C9 Review - What are their Differences? However, this is moot now, as based on Kris' advise, I've taken the Lumagen out of the basement system, and it will go back in to my dedicated home theater when its upgrade and renovation is ready for this.


Steve,

You need to set your Radiance Pro to output SDR and measure how well your C9 does on SDR source. For some reason the max output is limited for SDR sources. You might very well be in 450 nits range or even less. My Sony OLED measured 380 nits in SDR. If you set your Radiance Pro to output HDR, tone mapping is applied in the Radiance and then once more in your C9. Double tone mapping is counter productive in most cases. AFAIK, none of the OLEDs allow tone mapping to be disabled on HDR sources but tone mapping is disabled for SDR sources. I have heard some users found the sweet spot in DTM settings to allow the Radiance Pro to output HDR to an OLED with successful results with double tone mapping. 

I tried direct source to display connection (which allows Dolby Vision). I also tried Source to Radiance Pro (HDR bypass) to Display in HDR (No DV). Dithering on the Radiance Pro improved overall clarity and video noise on all sources. Upscaling was significantly better than the display doing it on below 4K content. Expected updates pip/pop and enhancements (noise reduction and sharping) will further improve the picture. I still watch a ton of 1080p SDR Blu-rays. These improvements outweighed Dolby Vision on some of my discs for me.


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## Rikard R

Hello, every lumagen owners!
When can we expect the new sharpness
control available to download?
Best regards!
Rikard


----------



## garyolearysteele

fatherom said:


> Wanted to get people's opinions before I bug the folks at lumagen since I know sometimes my settings or config may be off.
> 
> I'm running dtm level at 1 (instead of the default 3) and desat at low (not auto). Running the latest fw.
> 
> I've noticed something lately that seems like it could be a dtm issue. I watched 4k discs of kick ass and Star Trek (2009) and whiplash. The first two films are highly stylized visually and experience the problem more often, but whiplash had it in a couple spots.
> 
> As the camera switches within a scene, I notice brief moments of a washed out image (slightly drained of color, like when you see screenshots of an hdr 4k disc that haven't been tonemapped). These brief moments are surrounded by images that are vibrant and "normal" looking.
> 
> Star Trek had it a lot and I was speculating that all the crazy lens flares and flashes in that movie may be confusing the dtm algorithm?
> 
> Just wondering if others have noticed this over the last month. I can go back and try to get some time stamps if need be. Right now, it's a general behavior I've been noticing more lately than in past months with older firmwares.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm getting my Lumagen installed next week so i'll test it with Star Trek 2009 then and see if i get the same. Though, from what i've seen on this forum i'd email Lumagen since they seem receptive to this kind of thing and i'm sure it helps them tune the DTM algorithm when they have examples like this to work with. There was a recent update to DTM that dealt with darker scenes where a bright light pans in without a scene change, perhaps its related.


----------



## bobof

fatherom said:


> Wanted to get people's opinions before I bug the folks at lumagen since I know sometimes my settings or config may be off.
> 
> I'm running dtm level at 1 (instead of the default 3) and desat at low (not auto). Running the latest fw.
> 
> I've noticed something lately that seems like it could be a dtm issue. I watched 4k discs of kick ass and Star Trek (2009) and whiplash. The first two films are highly stylized visually and experience the problem more often, but whiplash had it in a couple spots.
> 
> As the camera switches within a scene, I notice brief moments of a washed out image (slightly drained of color, like when you see screenshots of an hdr 4k disc that haven't been tonemapped). These brief moments are surrounded by images that are vibrant and "normal" looking.
> 
> Star Trek had it a lot and I was speculating that all the crazy lens flares and flashes in that movie may be confusing the dtm algorithm?
> 
> Just wondering if others have noticed this over the last month. I can go back and try to get some time stamps if need be. Right now, it's a general behavior I've been noticing more lately than in past months with older firmwares.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't have game mode enabled do you? That has a frame delay on DTM curve changes I believe, which might explain what you are seeing.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Hey All,

I'm will soon be adding a Lumagen to my setup (Sony vw760es PJ) and wondered what experiences people have with Game mode and using the Lumagen to do DTM tone mapping for HDR games (PS4 pro & Xbox one X).

Most games have the ability to disable HDR, i wondered if the best approach would be; Disable HDR in the game, use Game Mode with its limited DTM, use DTM as is, or disable DTM and allow the HDR to pass through untouched? I don't play too many twitch reflex games like online FPS so minor lag i'm unlikely to notice.

For most games, i find the HDR to look good, with a few exceptions (Last of Us 2 looks better with HDR and looks fantastic, Spider-Man and Man of Medan not so much). I can imagine games are a tough case for DTM since there wont be too many scene changes to alter the tone map without a noticeable change to brightness.

I guess the same question applies to which is best; A 4K HDR tone mapped movie or a native SDR movie, which might be a tough question since one is likely to be in 4k and one 1080....

Thanks
Gary


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> As the camera switches within a scene, I notice brief moments of a washed out image (slightly drained of color, like when you see screenshots of an hdr 4k disc that haven't been tonemapped). These brief moments are surrounded by images that are vibrant and "normal" looking.
> 
> Star Trek had it a lot and I was speculating that all the crazy lens flares and flashes in that movie may be confusing the dtm algorithm?
> 
> Just wondering if others have noticed this over the last month. I can go back and try to get some time stamps if need be. Right now, it's a general behavior I've been noticing more lately than in past months with older firmwares.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, please provide specific movies and time stamps and I will try to corroborate your observations.


----------



## fatherom

When I get a chance, I'll pop in Star Trek and try to get some examples...that movie seemed to be the worst offender.

I don't believe I have game mode on (never turned it on explicitly), but I'll check that as well.


----------



## fatherom

OK, I have some more concrete info. May repeat myself a bit, because I plan to copy/paste this and email it to Jim at Lumagen as well...but curious if others can reproduce this:

*Star Trek (2009)*
1:30:25 and 1:30:55 - The close up shots containing Spock's face are more dull looking that the surrounding shots of the close up shots containing Kirk's face.

*Kick-Ass*
00:02:46 - Main character is walking down the school hallway, looks at a girl putting on makeup, girl is annoyed, then they show a long shot (from the character's POV) of a hallway with light pouring in from windows (on the left) and hitting the floor. For me, that shot is SUPER bright compared to the shots that come before and after.

I have DPad at 1 (instead of default 3). Game mode is off. I have desat set to Low (instead of Auto).

When reviewing the Kick-Ass scene in particular, sometimes I would have to rewind about 1 minute before the offending scene so that DTM would have enough lead time to cause the problem. 

I watched these same scenes on my iPad (iTunes, yes admittedly a bit apples and oranges), just to confirm that these shots don't have this level of brightness disparity baked into the content. They don't appear to. The brightness is consistent within these sections of the film, when viewing on my iPad.

I watch something nearly every night, and these anomalies seem more prevalent since I installed 080120.


----------



## Killroy

fatherom said:


> OK, I have some more concrete info. May repeat myself a bit, because I plan to copy/paste this and email it to Jim at Lumagen as well...but curious if others can reproduce this:
> 
> *Star Trek (2009)*
> 1:30:25 and 1:30:55 - The close up shots containing Spock's face are more dull looking that the surrounding shots of the close up shots containing Kirk's face.


That is one of the worst torture scenes for any DTM. There are two things that are making that scene a nightmare...1) there are several hotspots directly behind Spock's face that are "uber" bright (they are not there behind Kirk), but more importantly, 2) there is a horrible J.J. flare sneaking in-n-out of the Spock scene that just trips the algos into over compensating. In MadVR you can trace the nits (on the OSD) and see that thing jump around like a kangaroo on meth.


----------



## fatherom

Killroy said:


> That is one of the worst torture scenes for any DTM. There are two things that are making that scene a nightmare...1) there are several hotspots directly behind Spock's face that are "uber" bright (they are not there behind Kirk), but more importantly, 2) there is a horrible J.J. flare sneaking in-n-out of the Spock scene that just trips the algos into over compensating. In MadVR you can trace the nits (on the OSD) and see that thing jump around like a kangaroo on meth.


Fair enough...but the film on the whole had many moments like this. As did Kick-Ass. I haven't seen brightness complications like this in several months of various firmwares...the latest one may have solved some known issues with certain films, but pulling "that thread" may have caused unintended side effects in other films.


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> OK, I have some more concrete info. May repeat myself a bit, because I plan to copy/paste this and email it to Jim at Lumagen as well...but curious if others can reproduce this:
> 
> *Star Trek (2009)*
> 1:30:25 and 1:30:55 - The close up shots containing Spock's face are more dull looking that the surrounding shots of the close up shots containing Kirk's face.
> 
> *Kick-Ass*
> 00:02:46 - Main character is walking down the school hallway, looks at a girl putting on makeup, girl is annoyed, then they show a long shot (from the character's POV) of a hallway with light pouring in from windows (on the left) and hitting the floor. For me, that shot is SUPER bright compared to the shots that come before and after.
> 
> I have DPad at 1 (instead of default 3). Game mode is off. I have desat set to Low (instead of Auto).
> 
> When reviewing the Kick-Ass scene in particular, sometimes I would have to rewind about 1 minute before the offending scene so that DTM would have enough lead time to cause the problem.
> 
> I watched these same scenes on my iPad (iTunes, yes admittedly a bit apples and oranges), just to confirm that these shots don't have this level of brightness disparity baked into the content. They don't appear to. The brightness is consistent within these sections of the film, when viewing on my iPad.
> 
> I watch something nearly every night, and these anomalies seem more prevalent since I installed 080120.


I'll look at these today. I recommend DPAD at 2, not 1. Just FYI.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I'll look at these today. I recommend DPAD at 2, not 1. Just FYI.


Yeah, I know dpad at 1 can potentially cause problems. 

FWIW, it does seem the recommendations are pretty fluid and keep changing. Dpad at 1 was recommended a while back. DeSat on Auto was recommended also. Maybe we should have a sticky or something with the generally-accepted recommendations?


----------



## jbrinegar

fatherom said:


> OK, I have some more concrete info. May repeat myself a bit, because I plan to copy/paste this and email it to Jim at Lumagen as well...but curious if others can reproduce this:
> 
> *Star Trek (2009)*
> 1:30:25 and 1:30:55 - The close up shots containing Spock's face are more dull looking that the surrounding shots of the close up shots containing Kirk's face.


I have Star Trek, Ill check it out tonight.

If anyone has an apple 4k tv, could you check out S2 Ep10 of Umbrella Academy, around the 27:10 mark when the two girls are fighting. The sky has a quick reddish flash during the fight scene. I think it has to do with the DSat setting, it goes away when I turn Dsat to off. But is present on Auto-Low-Med-high. I reported it to Lumagen and theyre looking into it. Just wondering if anyone else sees this or if its just my setup.

Edit: My lum settings: max light 500 Dsat Low, Dpad 2


----------



## garyolearysteele

jbrinegar said:


> I have Star Trek, Ill check it out tonight.
> 
> If anyone has an apple 4k tv, could you check out S2 Ep10 of Umbrella Academy, around the 27:10 mark when the two girls are fighting. The sky has a quick reddish flash during the fight scene. I think it has to do with the DSat setting, it goes away when I turn Dsat to off. But is present on Auto-Low-Med-high. I reported it to Lumagen and theyre looking into it. Just wondering if anyone else sees this or if its just my setup.
> 
> Edit: My lum settings: max light 500 Dsat Low, Dpad 2


I can’t help with the test at the moment but checked out the scene, I think it’s at 27:10 mins remaining, 22:30ish into the episode..


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> OK, I have some more concrete info. May repeat myself a bit, because I plan to copy/paste this and email it to Jim at Lumagen as well...but curious if others can reproduce this:
> 
> *Star Trek (2009)*
> 1:30:25 and 1:30:55 - The close up shots containing Spock's face are more dull looking that the surrounding shots of the close up shots containing Kirk's face.
> 
> *Kick-Ass*
> 00:02:46 - Main character is walking down the school hallway, looks at a girl putting on makeup, girl is annoyed, then they show a long shot (from the character's POV) of a hallway with light pouring in from windows (on the left) and hitting the floor. For me, that shot is SUPER bright compared to the shots that come before and after.
> 
> I have DPad at 1 (instead of default 3). Game mode is off. I have desat set to Low (instead of Auto).
> 
> When reviewing the Kick-Ass scene in particular, sometimes I would have to rewind about 1 minute before the offending scene so that DTM would have enough lead time to cause the problem.
> 
> I watched these same scenes on my iPad (iTunes, yes admittedly a bit apples and oranges), just to confirm that these shots don't have this level of brightness disparity baked into the content. They don't appear to. The brightness is consistent within these sections of the film, when viewing on my iPad.
> 
> I watch something nearly every night, and these anomalies seem more prevalent since I installed 080120.


I looked at both of these on my setup. I don't see anything wrong with Star Trek, watched it a few times. The lens flares are especially annoying in this scene, but I don't see anything wrong with the faces. Kirk's has more color to it because he looks like he's been beat up a bit (more reddish with bruising and such) but Spock's face is nicely detailed and skin tone looks fine. Nothing that would particularly call attention to itself when I watched the scene.

For Kick Ass that scene is a bit of a mixed bag. The way they lit the scene starting all the way from when he leaves the car is a bit overexposed and has some soft clipping where detail goes away. You see this on the left side of where the girls are that he looks at and on the walls as he and his friends are walking down the hall. This is in the source, and not the tone mapping. I checked the same sequence on my OLED with the Dolby Vision grade and it has the same issues (the left side of the girls looks slightly different, but the rest is the same).


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I looked at both of these on my setup. I don't see anything wrong with Star Trek, watched it a few times. The lens flares are especially annoying in this scene, but I don't see anything wrong with the faces. Kirk's has more color to it because he looks like he's been beat up a bit (more reddish with bruising and such) but Spock's face is nicely detailed and skin tone looks fine. Nothing that would particularly call attention to itself when I watched the scene.
> 
> For Kick Ass that scene is a bit of a mixed bag. The way they lit the scene starting all the way from when he leaves the car is a bit overexposed and has some soft clipping where detail goes away. You see this on the left side of where the girls are that he looks at and on the walls as he and his friends are walking down the hall. This is in the source, and not the tone mapping. I checked the same sequence on my OLED with the Dolby Vision grade and it has the same issues (the left side of the girls looks slightly different, but the rest is the same).


Thanks for checking. Jim from Lumagen recommends I wait for the new firmware, change my Ratio from 32 to 31, change my dpad from 1 to 2, and test again.

For me, on these scenes, there are incredibly noticeable differences in overall brightness/vibrance levels. It's not just Spock's face, for example. The entire frame has a dullness to it (a slight gray darkness). For Kick Ass, there is a huge jump in brightness only when they show the long shot down the hallway.

The 'dull' shots looks like they have a haze over them; then the next shot looks bright and vibrant. And rewinding to just a few seconds before the problem sometimes keeps everything dull or everything bright/vibrant, which leads me to think DTM is doing something.


----------



## jbrinegar

garyolearysteele said:


> I can’t help with the test at the moment but checked out the scene, I think it’s at 27:10 mins remaining, 22:30ish into the episode..


 Yes, you are correct! Thank you! Time stamp is 22:30ish season 2 ep 10 umbrella academy.

The sky keeps flashing a reddish color on my apple 4k tv. Would love to know if anyone else notices this


----------



## Kris Deering

I looked at the Umbrella Academy clip. I think this had been reported to Lumagen before and is fixed in the beta firmware I have because I didn't see any artifacts at all. I was looking from an Nvidia Shield Pro, but I will look on my ATV4K in a bit and see if maybe it reacts different to that source.


----------



## Kris Deering

Just looked at it using the ATV4K. Same result, no issues with the background, no flashes or red. This is the scene after the lady throws the big guy through the wall outside and the two ladies fight. Lots of cuts and pans in this scene, so I could see how it might throw a fit, but seems to be stable in the build I have here. So probably will be fine in next official release.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> When I project (sony 995) using a DCR Paladin lens via the Lumagen, on a 2.4 score a/r screen, showing 16:9 content, and I set the projector zoom to precisely fill the left & right sides of the screen - I need to add (on the Lumagen -> Style setting) exactly 2% shrink on top & on the bottom, for the image to 100% fit and fill the fabric of the screen. For example using Apple TV overscaning / geometry pattern. And other sources with similar test patterns.
> 
> Is this normal? My need for perfection demands I get 'the whole' picture inside the frame. Is there a better way or did I come by the right approach? The same method works spot on when the image is fully open to 2.4 content. Thank you.


If you are using "lens shift" to properly place the image vertically it can increase the height to width ratio since you are "angling the image down." This is similar to when you point a flashlight directly at the wall you get a round spot, and then when angling it down the spot becomes an oval.

As others mention for 4096x2160 output the "20% vertical shrink" for the Paladin DCR lens give an output aspect of 2.37. This also plays into the equation.

I have a Paladin DCR lens and run our JVC RS4500 at 4096 wide on our Stewart Filmscreen 2.40 Studiotek 130 screen. In this setup our is also just a bit too much.

Rather than a 2% top an bottom shrink, I vertically position the bottom of the active image at the bottom of the screen (with a bit of overscan). Then I use the Radiance Pro output Mask to blank the top 4%-ish pixel. I find there is more useful content at the bottom than there is at the top and so prefer blanking the top 4% of pixels. I prefer this to using the output sizing since masking does not turn on scaling with I have 16:9 content, and the Pro's output sizing reducing the height would. So I am choosing what I consider to be better output vertical resolution (for 16:9 content) in trade for missing some pixels at the top of the image. You can also choose to position so masking is the same at the top and bottom. And of course you can choose to see all the pixels by using the Output Shrink function to correctly size the image vertically (knowing you would be down-scaling 4k 16:9 content vertically which is not a great idea).

=== 

Another trick I use is to set the output aspect to "Output Aspect Per Input Aspect" in the Output->Styles->Style menu. Then i cheat a bit. I set 2.35 content output aspect to 2.35, and 2.40 content output aspect to 2.40. This means the active width for both 2.35 and 2.40 is the same (4096 in our case) and avoids black pillar box at the left/right edge, or overscan, for one or the other. I set up so this 2% difference is split so 2.35 content is 1% wider than it would be and 2.40 is 1% narrower than it would be. I believe this 1% "error" in aspect ratio is imperceptible.


----------



## giomania

fatherom said:


> Yeah, I know dpad at 1 can potentially cause problems.
> 
> FWIW, it does seem the recommendations are pretty fluid and keep changing. Dpad at 1 was recommended a while back. DeSat on Auto was recommended also. Maybe we should have a sticky or something with the generally-accepted recommendations?


I keep the recommended settings updated in the doc in my signature.

Mark


----------



## jrp

Rikard R said:


> When can we expect the new sharpness control available to download?


We have the new sharpness filter for both <=1080, and 4k, content implementation complete (we believe) and we are working on FPGA "synthesis" trying to get it to meet timing requirements. This can be a day or a few days.

Patrick is also changing the "Right Arrow Menu" to give fast access to the new sharpness control. This has been used for the Darbee menu, but will now show both Darbee and the new Radiance Pro sharpness for up to 1080p content. For 4k content it will show only the new Radiance sharpness since for the Radiance Pro Darbee works for up to 1080p content.


----------



## fatherom

giomania said:


> I keep the recommended settings updated in the doc in my signature.
> 
> Mark


I appreciate that, but to be honest, that doc is very long and a bit daunting. I didn't see a small section for "recommended DTM settings" (may have missed it).

Please, no one interpret this as me trying to start a big kerfuffle, but I do think there's been a bit of confusion lately about settings. Some things I've noticed:

1) the DTM algorithm has changed a lot (which is a good thing), and it does seem that the default settings have morphed over time to suit the algorithm as it changes. However, I changed a couple defaults months ago based on some separate recommendations, and since the firmware upgrade doesn't change ones settings, I haven't specifically reset to defaults for DTM (nor did I think I was supposed to).

2) Sometimes (rarely), it seems a recommended value for a setting may differ than the default value for that setting.

3) I think it may make sense to either recommend ("offically") that the DTM tonemapping defaults be reset after a firmware update, or have a small section somewhere (avs? lumagen site?) where the up-to-date current recommended DTM settings are prominently displayed. I think this would make sense to do, especially since it does seem that the DTM algorithm is nearly settled and probably will only have minor-ish tweaks going forward.

Don't get me wrong...I absolutely freaking LOVE my Lumagen. I am SOOOO glad I bought it. And I am salivating waiting for the upcoming firmware. The customer service and rapid f/w releases are unparalleled in this industry. But, as is often said, if someone raises a concern, odds are there are other people out there that have the same concern.

Thanks for listening,

Chris


----------



## giomania

fatherom said:


> I appreciate that, but to be honest, that doc is very long and a bit daunting. I didn't see a small section for "recommended DTM settings" (may have missed it).
> 
> Please, no one interpret this as me trying to start a big kerfuffle, but I do think there's been a bit of confusion lately about settings. Some things I've noticed:
> 
> 1) the DTM algorithm has changed a lot (which is a good thing), and it does seem that the default settings have morphed over time to suit the algorithm as it changes. However, I changed a couple defaults months ago based on some separate recommendations, and since the firmware upgrade doesn't change ones settings, I haven't specifically reset to defaults for DTM (nor did I think I was supposed to).
> 
> 2) Sometimes (rarely), it seems a recommended value for a setting may differ than the default value for that setting.
> 
> 3) I think it may make sense to either recommend ("offically") that the DTM tonemapping defaults be reset after a firmware update, or have a small section somewhere (avs? lumagen site?) where the up-to-date current recommended DTM settings are prominently displayed. I think this would make sense to do, especially since it does seem that the DTM algorithm is nearly settled and probably will only have minor-ish tweaks going forward.
> 
> Don't get me wrong...I absolutely freaking LOVE my Lumagen. I am SOOOO glad I bought it. And I am salivating waiting for the upcoming firmware. The customer service and rapid f/w releases are unparalleled in this industry. But, as is often said, if someone raises a concern, odds are there are other people out there that have the same concern.
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> 
> Chris


You are right; it is very long. I used to have a separate settings document, but when they changed the settings, I had to change both documents.

So now I just have the one document, but I just thought you could download it and then remove what you don’t need.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> We have the new sharpness filter for both <=1080, and 4k, content implementation complete (we believe) and we are working on FPGA "synthesis" trying to get it to meet timing requirements. This can be a day or a few days.
> 
> Patrick is also changing the "Right Arrow Menu" to give fast access to the new sharpness control. This has been used for the Darbee menu, but will now show both Darbee and the new Radiance Pro sharpness for up to 1080p content. For 4k content it will show only the new Radiance sharpness since for the Radiance Pro Darbee works for up to 1080p content.


Most excellent, Jim & Patrick. It's a real advantage not to have to enter the menu/submenu screens to facilitate these enhancements. Much appreciated!


----------



## Rikard R

jrp said:


> We have the new sharpness filter for both <=1080, and 4k, content implementation complete (we believe) and we are working on FPGA "synthesis" trying to get it to meet timing requirements. This can be a day or a few days.
> 
> Patrick is also changing the "Right Arrow Menu" to give fast access to the new sharpness control. This has been used for the Darbee menu, but will now show both Darbee and the new Radiance Pro sharpness for up to 1080p content. For 4k content it will show only the new Radiance sharpness since for the Radiance Pro Darbee works for up to 1080p content.


Thank you for the answer!
I am looking forward to this update.
Rikard


----------



## Nima

How easy is it to do a 3D Lut calibration myself and what equipment would I need?


----------



## DannyBoy73

garyolearysteele said:


> Hey All,
> 
> I'm will soon be adding a Lumagen to my setup (Sony vw760es PJ) and wondered what experiences people have with Game mode and using the Lumagen to do DTM tone mapping for HDR games (PS4 pro & Xbox one X).
> 
> Most games have the ability to disable HDR, i wondered if the best approach would be; Disable HDR in the game, use Game Mode with its limited DTM, use DTM as is, or disable DTM and allow the HDR to pass through untouched? I don't play too many twitch reflex games like online FPS so minor lag i'm unlikely to notice.
> 
> For most games, i find the HDR to look good, with a few exceptions (Last of Us 2 looks better with HDR and looks fantastic, Spider-Man and Man of Medan not so much). I can imagine games are a tough case for DTM since there wont be too many scene changes to alter the tone map without a noticeable change to brightness.
> 
> I guess the same question applies to which is best; A 4K HDR tone mapped movie or a native SDR movie, which might be a tough question since one is likely to be in 4k and one 1080....
> 
> Thanks
> Gary


Anyone got any thoughts on this? I'm interested too as like to play PS4 Pro via LRP and on projector.

Thanks


----------



## Dirk44

I really looking for the new firmware, can't wait to enjoy the new sharpness in upcoming movies.
I'm just thinking if could be issue to interact with the well known Projectors build in Sony algos.
Sharpness can be gained to zero and super Resolution can be turned off, but as far as I know it still "works" in the background of signal path.

P.S. Sorry i'm a movie geek only, my technical knowledge and my English as well are limited


----------



## KarlKlammer

Nima said:


> How easy is it to do a 3D Lut calibration myself and what equipment would I need?


If you are willing to learn a few things and have tried some LUT calibrations, you will find manageable.
Apart from a LUT box (=Radiance) you will need Light Illusion ColourSpace (or LightSpace), a meter and a computer. 
It is always possible to spend more money on equipment. But you could start with an x-rite i1 Display Pro. And to increase the the accuracy, you could add a reference meter (i1 Pro2/3 for example).


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> If you are willing to learn a few things and have tried some LUT calibrations, you will find manageable.
> Apart from a LUT box (=Radiance) you will need Light Illusion ColourSpace (or LightSpace), a meter and a computer.
> It is always possible to spend more money on equipment. But you could start with an x-rite i1 Display Pro. And to increase the the accuracy, you could add a reference meter (i1 Pro2/3 for example).


Hi, can I use DisplayCAL, which is free, to upload 3D Lut profile to a Lumagen?


----------



## Jue Liang

Hi everyone, I am very close to buy a video processor now, but a important question just came to my mind:

If I use a external processor, like a Lumagen, to do the DTM, I don't want it to output in SDR2020 mode. Because that won't trigger my PJ (a JVC RS3000) switching to HDR mode (high lamp, iris open), but stay in SDR mode (low lamp, iris at -9) with BT2020 color profile. So, I want the processor to output in HDR2020 (with a HDR flag), and I will set my pj in static tone mapping mode. 

I know that Lumagen or madVR convert HDR to SDR based on 2.4 or 2.2 gamma of the display in SDR mode. Then, if set it to output HDR2020, how does the processor know the EOTF curve of my projector when set to HDR10 mode for proper tone mapping? Would the 3D Lut calibration still valid when output HDR2020?

I appreciate if anyone can help me with this question!

This is a question not only applies to Lumagen, but also to Envy. I guess I will also need to post this question in the Envy thread as well.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Jue Liang said:


> Hi, can I use DisplayCAL, which is free, to upload 3D Lut profile to a Lumagen?


I calibrated a few monitors with DisplayCal and am not aware, that you can create and upload a LUT to the Radiance with it.



Jue Liang said:


> If I use a external processor, like a Lumagen, to do the DTM, I don't want it to output in SDR2020 mode. Because that won't trigger my PJ (a JVC RS3000) switching to HDR mode (high lamp, iris open), but stay in SDR mode (low lamp, iris at -9) with BT2020 color profile. So, I want the processor to output in HDR2020 (with a HDR flag), and I will set my pj in static tone mapping mode.
> 
> I know that Lumagen or madVR convert HDR to SDR based on 2.4 or 2.2 gamma of the display in SDR mode. Then, if set it to output HDR2020, how does the processor know the EOTF curve of my projector when set to HDR10 mode for proper tone mapping? Would the 3D Lut calibration still valid when output HDR2020?


You can output SDR2020 and configure the Radiance so that it sends the HDR flag. So the RS3000 will be switching to your pre defined HDR picture mode. 
The Radiance expects the Projector to be set to gamma 2.4 and color profile to DCI, BT.2020 or HDR for DTM.


----------



## Mike Garrett

KarlKlammer said:


> I calibrated a few monitors with DisplayCal and am not aware, that you can create and upload a LUT to the Radiance with it.
> 
> 
> *You can output SDR2020 and configure the Radiance so that it sends the HDR flag.* So the RS3000 will be switching to your pre defined HDR picture mode.
> The Radiance expects the Projector to be set to gamma 2.4 and color profile to DCI, BT.2020 or HDR for DTM.


Yes, that is how mine is configured. Select BT2020 if you want the wider color space and a cost of a little bit of light output. Select HDR if you want to keep as much light output as you can and just have a slightly wider color space than Rec709.


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> I calibrated a few monitors with DisplayCal and am not aware, that you can create and upload a LUT to the Radiance with it.
> 
> 
> You can output SDR2020 and configure the Radiance so that it sends the HDR flag. So the RS3000 will be switching to your pre defined HDR picture mode.
> The Radiance expects the Projector to be set to gamma 2.4 and color profile to DCI, BT.2020 or HDR for DTM.


I used DisplayCAL to create and upload 3D Lut to madVR.

In HDR mode, the pj will use a EOTF curve, not 2.4 gamma anymore. So how could the picture be displayed correctly when the pj applying a HDR EOTF curve to an SDR signal? I am sorry if this is a stupid question. Maybe I am understanding something wrong here.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Jue Liang said:


> I used DisplayCAL to create and upload 3D Lut to madVR.


Sure, but the Radiance does not 'understand' 3D LUTs for madVR.



> In HDR mode, the pj will use a EOTF curve, not 2.4 gamma anymore. So how could the picture be displayed correctly when the pj applying a HDR EOTF curve to an SDR signal? I am sorry if this is a stupid question. Maybe I am understanding something wrong here.


You would have to set up a custom picture mode with gamma 2.4 and one of the mentioned color profiles.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Jue In your projector you can tell it to go to USER 2 when it sees the HDR flag. You then set User 2 to have gamma 2.4 and the colourgamut you wish to use and the lamp mode etc. Then you set the CMS for HDR in lumagen to SDR2020 and set HDR FLAG ON. Then when you play your HDR content the JVC will swap to USER2 automatically. When you play SDR it will revert back to whatever your last used SDR preset was.


----------



## bobof

Jue Liang said:


> Hi, can I use DisplayCAL, which is free, to upload 3D Lut profile to a Lumagen?


No, it's not supported. Colourspace / Lightspace is probably the best option.


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> Sure, but the Radiance does not 'understand' 3D LUTs for madVR.


I was just trying to say DisplayCAL can generate 3D Lut, but not sure Radiance support this software or not. But looks like it doesn't. Thanks!


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> You would have to set up a custom picture mode with gamma 2.4 and one of the mentioned color profiles.





Gordon Fraser said:


> Jue In your projector you can tell it to go to USER 2 when it sees the HDR flag. You then set User 2 to have gamma 2.4 and the colourgamut you wish to use and the lamp mode etc. Then you set the CMS for HDR in lumagen to SDR2020 and set HDR FLAG ON. Then when you play your HDR content the JVC will swap to USER2 automatically. When you play SDR it will revert back to whatever your last used SDR preset was.


Unfortunately, this is not doable anymore with the new firmware. With the new firmware, there are six modes selectable for HDR: Frame Adapt HDR, HDR10, PANA, USER4, USER 5, and USER6. None of these modes allow me select gamma 2.4.


----------



## Jue Liang

bobof said:


> No, it's not supported. Colourspace / Lightspace is probably the best option.


Thanks for confirming.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Jue Liang said:


> Unfortunately, this is not doable anymore with the new firmware. With the new firmware, there are six modes selectable for HDR: Frame Adapt HDR, HDR10, PANA, USER4, USER 5, and USER6. None of these modes allow me select gamma 2.4.


Which firmware does your RS3000 have? If it is 3.1, then it is doable. My NX9 switches to User 2, when detecting the HDR flag. And User 2 is configured to DCI and gamma 2.4.


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> Which firmware does your RS3000 have? If it is 3.1, then it is doable. My NX9 switches to User 2, when detecting the HDR flag. And User 2 is configured to DCI and gamma 2.4.


Mine has the new firmware, the one has the Theater Optimizer. It allows you to input setup information which is nice, but the final performance is not quite different from last year, too much compression in highlight area in high mode, some compression in mid mode, and it is a bit too dark in low mode for certain movies like BR2049, Alita, Ford VS Ferrai. This is exactly why I want to use an external processor to do DTM after seeing the performance of the new firmware from JVC.


----------



## KarlKlammer

They must be joking? 
Then I guess this firmware is a no go for me.
Thanks for the warning.


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> They must be joking?
> Then I guess this firmware is a no go for me.
> Thanks for the warning.


I am hoping the official release would change it.


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> I am hoping the official release would change it.


It won't, but you should be able to revert, which is what I would suggest. There isn't any reason to use the new firmware if you have a Lumagen anyways. The other option would be to load a custom gamma into the IMPORT slot that is 2.4 for a Lumagen. That should work. 

The firmware should not have been loaded onto your projector in the first place, there is a reason it is not released yet. So you kind of shot yourself in the foot on this in a way, but thanks for taking one for the team and letting us know about the gamma issue! LOL.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> If you are using "lens shift" to properly place the image vertically it can increase the height to width ratio since you are "angling the image down." This is similar to when you point a flashlight directly at the wall you get a round spot, and then when angling it down the spot becomes an oval.
> 
> As others mention for 4096x2160 output the "20% vertical shrink" for the Paladin DCR lens give an output aspect of 2.37. This also plays into the equation.
> 
> I have a Paladin DCR lens and run our JVC RS4500 at 4096 wide on our Stewart Filmscreen 2.40 Studiotek 130 screen. In this setup our is also just a bit too much.
> 
> Rather than a 2% top an bottom shrink, I vertically position the bottom of the active image at the bottom of the screen (with a bit of overscan). Then I use the Radiance Pro output Mask to blank the top 4%-ish pixel. I find there is more useful content at the bottom than there is at the top and so prefer blanking the top 4% of pixels. I prefer this to using the output sizing since masking does not turn on scaling with I have 16:9 content, and the Pro's output sizing reducing the height would. So I am choosing what I consider to be better output vertical resolution (for 16:9 content) in trade for missing some pixels at the top of the image. You can also choose to position so masking is the same at the top and bottom. And of course you can choose to see all the pixels by using the Output Shrink function to correctly size the image vertically (knowing you would be down-scaling 4k 16:9 content vertically which is not a great idea).
> 
> ===
> 
> Another trick I use is to set the output aspect to "Output Aspect Per Input Aspect" in the Output->Styles->Style menu. Then i cheat a bit. I set 2.35 content output aspect to 2.35, and 2.40 content output aspect to 2.40. This means the active width for both 2.35 and 2.40 is the same (4096 in our case) and avoids black pillar box at the left/right edge, or overscan, for one or the other. I set up so this 2% difference is split so 2.35 content is 1% wider than it would be and 2.40 is 1% narrower than it would be. I believe this 1% "error" in aspect ratio is imperceptible.


Thanks much, awesome explanation which I just applied 
Btw, why would you choose to use Lumagen's masking vs. 'blanking' if the projector has it? For example, I can easily set pixel-level blanking at the top of the screen and get to the same result, using my projector. Any benefit to the Lumagen processing one way vs. the other?


----------



## dlinsley

Kris Deering said:


> There isn't any reason to use the new firmware if you have a Lumagen anyways.


The auto switch mode for 3D would be nice to have. Hopefully JVC can fix this before release.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> ===
> 
> Another trick I use is to set the output aspect to "Output Aspect Per Input Aspect" in the Output->Styles->Style menu. Then i cheat a bit. I set 2.35 content output aspect to 2.35, and 2.40 content output aspect to 2.40. This means the active width for both 2.35 and 2.40 is the same (4096 in our case) and avoids black pillar box at the left/right edge, or overscan, for one or the other. I set up so this 2% difference is split so 2.35 content is 1% wider than it would be and 2.40 is 1% narrower than it would be. I believe this 1% "error" in aspect ratio is imperceptible.


I finished with the first part of your advice, and it works like magic.
Now to the 'trick' part: do you have auto-aspect combine 2.35 & 2.4 into 2.4 (as I do today) or do you need to turn this off for your 'trick' of "Output Aspect Per Input Aspect' to be applied?


----------



## Jue Liang

Kris Deering said:


> It won't, but you should be able to revert, which is what I would suggest. There isn't any reason to use the new firmware if you have a Lumagen anyways. The other option would be to load a custom gamma into the IMPORT slot that is 2.4 for a Lumagen. That should work.
> 
> The firmware should not have been loaded onto your projector in the first place, there is a reason it is not released yet. So you kind of shot yourself in the foot on this in a way, but thanks for taking one for the team and letting us know about the gamma issue! LOL.


You are all welcome! If the official release won’t change it, I will still have the same problem anyway.
By the way, I can’t revert to 3.10 version. Just tried it, the pj says unable to change to this version.


----------



## riddle

I think we will must wait on finall release... i hope thats all will be ok


----------



## Vinturbo

Gordon Fraser said:


> Jue In your projector you can tell it to go to USER 2 when it sees the HDR flag.


Hi Gordon, i have a X7900 JVC and Radiance PRO. can i tell it to go to USER 2 when it sees the HDR flag?


----------



## bobof

Not Gordon, but no you can't. X7900 only supports very limited modes for HDR flag, none of them are the user modes.

I have X7900 and Lumagen and use a Raspberrry Pi running a small python script to switch the projector to a user mode.

X7900 is vulnerable to some issues with iris with HDR flag anyway so you're better off not using it, to be honest.


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Thanks much, awesome explanation which I just applied
> Btw, why would you choose to use Lumagen's masking vs. 'blanking' if the projector has it? For example, I can easily set pixel-level blanking at the top of the screen and get to the same result, using my projector. Any benefit to the Lumagen processing one way vs. the other?


You can use the projectors blanking if you like.

I like to use the Pro for everything so I don't have to remember where I changed what.


----------



## picree

Recently I noticed my autocalibration software was having problems dialing in the grayscale. I assumed there was an issue with the algorithms in the software so I attempted to do a manual 21 point grayscale calibration using the LRP internal test patterns. 

For the range of 10-40 IRE the adjustments did not seem to work correctly. As an example, at 25 IRE I needed more red. As I increased red for the 25 IRE field nothing seemed to happen with the grayscale. Increasing by 0.02 once, twice, many times made no difference. But for each IRE level there came a point where a 0.02 increase in red all of a sudden jumped the red content in the IRE field dramatically ( I could see it with my eyes and the meter jumped). If I reduced the value back down by 0.02 there was not enough red. But increasing it by 0.02 again and there was way too much red. I could never get it right.

I've done this before with a VisionPro and a Barco with great success. What is going on?


----------



## jqmn

Calibration Q-- Do each of the Memories (MemA, MemB...) have their own set of Config, CMS and Style blocks/slots behind them? Or, does each Memory share the slots such that there is only one CMS0 regardless of Mem choice? I would like to be able to use MemB as a constant Null slot so that I can use it to do calibration patch runs (either 709 or 2020/P3 both at 2.4) and then upload LUTs to the right CMS in MemA. Thank-you.


----------



## Kris Deering

CMS slots are one time use and can be assigned to any memory. So if you use CMS0 and 1 for calibration, assign CMS 2/3 for MemB and you will have null calibrations as long as you haven't loaded anything to them.


----------



## danam

Hi sorry if my question is stupid but i wanted to know if i could use both outputs of my 18gbps card simultaneously ?
I need to do some comparison between 2 displays.
Wanted to be sure before breaking settings... I'm very hesitating when it comes to playing with the Radiance.

Thanks in advance for your help


----------



## EVH78

danam said:


> Hi sorry if my question is stupid but i wanted to know if i could use both outputs of my 18gbps card simultaneously ?
> I need to do some comparison between 2 displays.
> Wanted to be sure before breaking settings... I'm very hesitating when it comes to playing with the Radiance.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help


If you have one 18Gbit card with 2 outputs then the answer is no. Those cards simply split audio and video to each hdmi output.

For that reason I reverted back to my old 9Gbit card.


----------



## jqmn

Thank-you!


Kris Deering said:


> CMS slots are one time use and can be assigned to any memory. So if you use CMS0 and 1 for calibration, assign CMS 2/3 for MemB and you will have null calibrations as long as you haven't loaded anything to them.


----------



## bobof

jqmn said:


> Calibration Q-- Do each of the Memories (MemA, MemB...) have their own set of Config, CMS and Style blocks/slots behind them? Or, does each Memory share the slots such that there is only one CMS0 regardless of Mem choice? I would like to be able to use MemB as a constant Null slot so that I can use it to do calibration patch runs (either 709 or 2020/P3 both at 2.4) and then upload LUTs to the right CMS in MemA. Thank-you.


While you can do this with the memory function and a different CMS, just be careful that you don't have any adjustments dialled in to your main CMS other than the 1D and 3DLUT; or to the input /output formats as refresh rates can sometimes affect display processing. For instance in my case I have a small black level tweak, which wouldn't be there on the other CMS unless I remembered to move it across. For that reason I prefer just clearing out the correct CMS profile - which is really quick in LS/CS.


----------



## loggeo

Kris Deering said:


> It won't, but you should be able to revert, which is what I would suggest. There isn't any reason to use the new firmware if you have a Lumagen anyways. The other option would be to load a custom gamma into the IMPORT slot that is 2.4 for a Lumagen. That should work.
> 
> The firmware should not have been loaded onto your projector in the first place, there is a reason it is not released yet. So you kind of shot yourself in the foot on this in a way, but thanks for taking one for the team and letting us know about the gamma issue! LOL.


Only reason I would think of upgrading is if they offer the "colorspace off-filter on" option. Do you know anything about it Kris?


----------



## danam

EVH78 said:


> If you have one 18Gbit card with 2 outputs then the answer is no. Those cards simply split audio and video to each hdmi output.
> 
> For that reason I reverted back to my old 9Gbit card.


OK thank you !
I thought I've read something like that. 
Fine I'll proceed differently then, no big deal.


----------



## docrog

Although many following this sub-forum also follow a sub-forum dedicated to comparing the Radiance Pro to madVR & Envy, I'm sure that there are those who don't. For those, I wanted to inform those readers that @woofer has posted (apparently) the first extensive blind head-to-head comparison with the Lumagen utilizing the upcoming firmware update against up-to-date madVR entries. The conclusion was that, for* all 6* participants: "*Myself and 5 individuals overwhelmingly preferred the images presented by the Lumagen Radiance Pro". *Congrats to @jrp and his entire staff for their tireless efforts to place Lumagen squarely at the top of the heap (and, also, to @Kris Deering for assisting @woofer with his endeavor)!


----------



## audioguy

Wonder when the cries of "fowl" will come forth from those who favor the other product? I will see if I can find that other thread.


----------



## Killroy

audioguy said:


> Wonder when the cries of "fowl" will come forth from those who favor the other product? I will see if I can find that other thread.


I doubt they will have much ground to do so since they used a RS4500.


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> Wonder when the cries of "fowl" will come forth from those who favor the other product? I will see if I can find that other thread.


It seems a bit unlikely, since @woofer is highly regarded on these forums and he apparently went to great lengths to provide a thoroughly unbiased test. The "testing" evaluation was entirely subjective and based on moving 1080p & UHD content, not static images. FYI, he owns both the RP and madVR products, so he shouldn't have an axe to grind.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Although many following this sub-forum also follow a sub-forum dedicated to comparing the Radiance Pro to madVR & Envy, I'm sure that there are those who don't. For those, I wanted to inform those readers that @woofer has posted (apparently) the first extensive blind head-to-head comparison with the Lumagen utilizing the upcoming firmware update against up-to-date madVR entries. The conclusion was that, for* all 6* participants: "*Myself and 5 individuals overwhelmingly preferred the images presented by the Lumagen Radiance Pro". *Congrats to @jrp and his entire staff for their tireless efforts to place Lumagen squarely at the top of the heap (and, also, to @Kris Deering for assisting @woofer with his endeavor)!


Glad I could help. I basically just made sure his configuration was where it should be for the Lumagen with his setup and gave him a peak at the work being done for some image enhancment. This is something I offer to all that either purchase a Lumagen through me or already have one. Takes all the guess work out of the product and makes for a much better sit back, relax and enjoy experience.


----------



## bjorg

I need some help setting up a Radiance Pro connected to an LG OLED77G6P with passive 3D capability. The default settings don't seem optimal.

For instance, when the input is 444-HDR2020 @ 23.98Hz, it outputs 422-SDR709 @ 59.94Hz. Setting the output to Auto4 seems to select the correct frame rate and color space, but is that the best way to go?

Also, for 3D, unless I set it to Auto4, the LG doesn't lock onto the 3D mode. However, when Auto4 is selected, it loses the correct aspect ratio and shows the blu-ray menu in 4:3 instead of 16:9.

I'm looking at the docs, but was hoping for a few quick pointers for general setup. Thx.

** Addendum 1

The source is an Oppo 203 with these settings:

HDR Setting: Auto
Output Resolution: Source Direct
Custom Resolution: UHD Auto
Color Space: Auto
Color Depth: 8 bit

** Addendum 2

Looks like the LG OLED77G6P has a max nit output of 540. So max light should be set to 1,100, correct?


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Glad I could help. I basically just made sure his configuration was where it should be for the Lumagen with his setup and gave him a peak at the work being done for some image enhancment. This is something I offer to all that either purchase a Lumagen through me or already have one. Takes all the guess work out of the product and makes for a much better sit back, relax and enjoy experience.


Nonetheless, he couldn't have proceeded without your involvement, Kris. It's really OK to take a bow, now and then............


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> Nonetheless, he couldn't have proceeded without your involvement, Kris. It's really OK to take a bow, now and then............


----------



## uderman

jrp said:


> We have the new sharpness filter for both <=1080, and 4k, content implementation complete (we believe) and we are working on FPGA "synthesis" trying to get it to meet timing requirements. This can be a day or a few days.
> 
> Patrick is also changing the "Right Arrow Menu" to give fast access to the new sharpness control. This has been used for the Darbee menu, but will now show both Darbee and the new Radiance Pro sharpness for up to 1080p content. For 4k content it will show only the new Radiance sharpness since for the Radiance Pro Darbee works for up to 1080p content.


Hi Jim, 

For SD to 4K scaling, with the new improved scaling, do you still recommend the sequential method with another Radiance unit upscaling SD to 2K and Radiance Pro from 2K to 4K? In my case, I have a Radiance 2144 and Radiance Pro 4446. What would be the optimum setup to go from 480i to 4k24?

Does the ”sharpness” work on 480i, 720p and 1080i? What are the registers for sharpness? Is it going to be a low, mid, high type register or 1 through 10?

Is there any plans for mosquito and/or gaussian/video noise reduction enhancements?

Thanks,
Mahir


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> For SD to 4K scaling, with the new improved scaling, do you still recommend the sequential method with another Radiance unit upscaling SD to 2K and Radiance Pro from 2K to 4K? In my case, I have a Radiance 2144 and Radiance Pro 4446. What would be the optimum setup to go from 480i to 4k24?
> 
> Does the ”sharpness” work on 480i, 720p and 1080i? What are the registers for sharpness? Is it going to be a low, mid, high type register or 1 through 10?
> 
> Is there any plans for mosquito and/or gaussian/video noise reduction enhancements?


For SD to 4k using the 2144 driving the Pro: Good question. Close call and I have to send you off to test both options.

Sharpness works on all source resolutions. Given that SD tends to have a lot of compression artifacts and noise (for DVD), and the sharpness filter will "enhance" those as if they are good video you need to use the sharpness with a lighter touch for most SD content. I know you have Laser Disc's and while those do not have "compression artifacts" they do suffer from the NTSC encoding resolution issues. Again, I have to send you off to do some testing on Laser-Disc's to see it the 2144 or the Pro will give you better sharpness for these.

We are evaluating the possibilities for noise reduction filters. No commitment at this time that we will do these, but I think we will have some filter that may help mosquito noise. Just have not started thinking about it yet and so do not have a definitive answer.


----------



## jqmn

Good catch. Thank-you.


bobof said:


> While you can do this with the memory function and a different CMS, just be careful that you don't have any adjustments dialled in to your main CMS other than the 1D and 3DLUT; or to the input /output formats as refresh rates can sometimes affect display processing. For instance in my case I have a small black level tweak, which wouldn't be there on the other CMS unless I remembered to move it across. For that reason I prefer just clearing out the correct CMS profile - which is really quick in LS/CS.


----------



## bjorg

bjorg said:


> Also, for 3D, unless I set it to Auto4, the LG doesn't lock onto the 3D mode. However, when Auto4 is selected, it loses the correct aspect ratio and shows the blu-ray menu in 4:3 instead of 16:9.


I could use some help on the 3D settings. It's unusable at the moment.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I could use some help on the 3D settings. It's unusable at the moment.


It doesn't sound like your unit is at factory settings, in a previous post you mentioned that you have changes in refresh rate from 23.976 to 59.94. I'd consider going back to basics - unless you have some calibration in there you can't afford to lose - and doing a factory reset. The refresh rate getting mangled is not a default behaviour.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> It doesn't sound like your unit is at factory settings, in a previous post you mentioned that you have changes in refresh rate from 23.976 to 59.94. I'd consider going back to basics - unless you have some calibration in there you can't afford to lose - and doing a factory reset. The refresh rate getting mangled is not a default behaviour.


Seem reasonable. I thought it was on factory settings, so no harm to reset it. Thx!


----------



## Roland Janus

Can the Pro do pass-through when switched off?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> Can the Pro do pass-through when switched off?


I don't think so, the HDMI RX, TX and FPGA etc would all need to be on to pass video through, at which point the unit isn't really in standby...!


----------



## Chris5

Does sound pass through I think though


----------



## bobof

I don't think it does, but could be wrong...


----------



## SJHT

I just turned mine off and no video or sound....


----------



## bobof

I think the only reason some folk might have sound still in a Radiance Pro system with the Pro off is where they have a dual output player, and the audio is going straight to the AVR.


----------



## Roland Janus

weird though is this. 

sources -> AVP (output 1)-> pro -> projector (turned off)
and
sources -> AVP (output 2) -> FHD LC-display to navigate.

Usually, when switching the Pro off, the display also goes off, but I had cases where I still saw the picture although the Pro was in standby, clearly red LED.
Turning it on made the picture disappear shortly, then appear again, just a resync. Wen turning it off again I lost the signal.

Does that make any sense?
Maybe related to the AVP and which output get's active?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> weird though is this.
> 
> sources -> AVP (output 1)-> pro -> projector (turned off)
> and
> sources -> AVP (output 2) -> FHD LC-display to navigate.
> 
> Usually, when switching the Pro off, the display also goes off, but I had cases where I still saw the picture although the Pro was in standby, clearly red LED.
> Turning it on made the picture disappear shortly, then appear again, just a resync. Wen turning it off again I lost the signal.
> 
> Does that make any sense?
> Maybe related to the AVP and which output get's active?


I don't understand what you are describing. Which display still has the image sometimes, the FHD LCD? It looks like the Lumagen isn't in circuit then from your diagram.

Split outputs in AVRs can do funny things sometimes as the HDCP authenticates both ports and if one display attached is turned off it will usually make the other one glitch. There are extra exciting funnies with some displays like Sony TVs, which cause a glitch on the other display a couple of minutes after powering down as they don't shut down the HDMI input immediately.

Maybe you could explain a bit clearer exactly what you are seeing happen.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Hey, has anyone ever experienced a total green screen from their Lumagen? The green screen covers the area of the screen that should contain image content. For instance with masking engaged ..masked area is black, but image area is green. Display shows the proper picture when Lumagen is bypassed. I updated firmware but it did not help. Any help would be MOST welcomed.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> I don't understand what you are describing. Which display still has the image sometimes, the FHD LCD? It looks like the Lumagen isn't in circuit then from your diagram.
> 
> Split outputs in AVRs can do funny things sometimes as the HDCP authenticates both ports and if one display attached is turned off it will usually make the other one glitch. There are extra exciting funnies with some displays like Sony TVs, which cause a glitch on the other display a couple of minutes after powering down as they don't shut down the HDMI input immediately.
> 
> Maybe you could explain a bit clearer exactly what you are seeing happen.


it's exactly as you described.
It's about the LCD which is not even in the chain of the Pro, but still influenced, in particular, it always shows a picture when the Pro is on.
Very rarely when it's off, so I guess it's related to HDCP and the AVP, not really to the Pro.
Weird though that I always have a picture when the Pro is on, even when not being in the chain.

It's probably a question for the AVP forum though.


----------



## Roland Janus

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey, has anyone ever experienced a total green screen from their Lumagen? The green screen covers the area of the screen that should contain image content. For instance with masking engaged ..masked area is black, but image area is green. Display shows the proper picture when Lumagen is bypassed. I updated firmware but it did not help. Any help would be MOST welcomed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I just remember having something like that but can't remember the circumstances.


----------



## jrp

BrolicBeast said:


> Hey, has anyone ever experienced a total green screen from their Lumagen? The green screen covers the area of the screen that should contain image content. For instance with masking engaged ..masked area is black, but image area is green. Display shows the proper picture when Lumagen is bypassed. I updated firmware but it did not help. Any help would be MOST welcomed.


We have seen this green screen issue before. This could be a hardware fail. Please contact us at support at Lumagen (.com). You can call us a 503-574-2211 Option 2 if you prefer.


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> it's exactly as you described.
> It's about the LCD which is not even in the chain of the Pro, but still influenced, in particular, it always shows a picture when the Pro is on.
> Very rarely when it's off, so I guess it's related to HDCP and the AVP, not really to the Pro.
> Weird though that I always have a picture when the Pro is on, even when not being in the chain.
> 
> It's probably a question for the AVP forum though.


Just sounds like an AVR quirk. Often the dual out functionality on AVRs is at the hairy end of working and pretty quirky. On my previous Denon AVR (before I had a Radiance Pro) I used to have to disable the output I wasn't watching if I wanted any kind of stable system.


----------



## bjorg

Well, I'm starting to wonder if this Radiance Pro purchase was a mistake. Maybe it's just the atrocious usability issues. By default, passive 3D doesn't work. Applying Darbee to 3D content was one of the big reasons for this purchase. Next, I have an issue with brightness on SDR content. Since HDR is put into an SDR wrapper, I maxed out the OLED light and brightness. That seems to work nicely for HDR content, but then SDR content is too bright. I haven't seen any brightness adjustment controls in the Radiance Pro. Hopefully, it's just me being ignorant. Anyway, long story short, I'm a bit disappointed at the moment. 😞


----------



## appelz

bjorg said:


> Well, I'm starting to wonder if this Radiance Pro purchase was a mistake. Maybe it's just the atrocious usability issues. By default, passive 3D doesn't work. Applying Darbee to 3D content was one of the big reasons for this purchase. Next, I have an issue with brightness on SDR content. Since HDR is put into an SDR wrapper, I maxed out the OLED light and brightness. That seems to work nicely for HDR content, but then SDR content is too bright. I haven't seen any brightness adjustment controls in the Radiance Pro. Hopefully, it's just me being ignorant. Anyway, long story short, I'm a bit disappointed at the moment. 😞


Sounds like maybe you are in just a little too deep. Swim back to the surface, get out of the pool, and call for the lifeguard to help. I'd suggest Kris Deering. Coincidentally, his company is Deep Dive AV 

Once properly configured, I think you will be very happy with your purchase.


----------



## bjorg

appelz said:


> Sounds like maybe you are in just a little too deep. Swim back to the surface, get out of the pool, and call for the lifeguard to help. I'd suggest Kris Deering. Coincidentally, his company is Deep Dive AV
> 
> Once properly configured, I think you will be very happy with your purchase.


There is optimizing and then there is just using something. I shouldn't have to require a professional to get the correct AR on 3D content. To date, I've never had to.


----------



## DenverMDM

bjorg said:


> There is optimizing and then there is just using something. I shouldn't have to require a professional to get the correct AR on 3D content. To date, I've never had to.


No offense but I think you’re out of your depths like Appelz stated. His advice on turning to the professionals was spot on. If you’re having trouble with the basics then there is no hope for you to get to the “optimizing” stage with the Lumagen without trial and error. Most on this forum either like tinkering and take the time to learn or simply write a check. No shame in either. Sounds like you’d be better off writing a check or moving on to something that would fulfill your easy button needs. Good luck!


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Well, I'm starting to wonder if this Radiance Pro purchase was a mistake. Maybe it's just the atrocious usability issues. By default, passive 3D doesn't work. Applying Darbee to 3D content was one of the big reasons for this purchase. Next, I have an issue with brightness on SDR content. Since HDR is put into an SDR wrapper, I maxed out the OLED light and brightness. That seems to work nicely for HDR content, but then SDR content is too bright. I haven't seen any brightness adjustment controls in the Radiance Pro. Hopefully, it's just me being ignorant. Anyway, long story short, I'm a bit disappointed at the moment.


I just checked and after a factory reset 3D worked fine on my unit. 

If you press menu then go to save and factory reset you should be able to do a factory reset of all settings. Note if you want the factory reset to be permanent you have to do a save after the factory reset - this is to prevent finger trouble making you lose all your config. Then play 3D content on your player and press ok / enter on the Lumagen and it will bring up the display info screen. For full 3D frame packed content it should usually say for most sources 1080p(3D) in and out at 23.98. What does yours say on that screen? See attached mine, I just did a factory reset to check it for you.

For what it is worth there shouldn't be any difference between active and passive 3D at the signal level - that is an implementation detail in the display, they both use the same HDMI signalling. Do you mean something different and are talking about side by side / top bottom 3D from movie rips or similar? If so you might just be looking at a problem of understanding. For nearly all displays 3D SBS/TB can only ever work for 720p/60 and1080p/24 and Not for 4k, so if the source isn't flagging them appropriately it's possible they're being scaled to 4K.

If you can share some more info about exactly what your source is and what the Lumagen says about the input / output formats that would help.

Most folk are using pros for tone mapping for projectors and many use some means of switching the display between modes with different output levels. This can be the HDR flag (which may mean you need to set HDR PQ gamma or not to the display, depending on display and / or firmware). Or can be some external control system setup (that is my preferred route), or even manual control. If you don't want to do either, you could limit the output for SDR by using a 3D LUT loaded into the Lumagen. That might cause some reduction in PQ though Vs switching the display into a different mode with correct levels set in the display.

I'd hope your supplying dealer could help with your queries. If not the guys at Lumagen are extremely helpful, and of course there is a lot of help available here from users like me / dealers / calibrators and the manufacturer. If you post more detailed info about your setup and screenshots I will be very surprised if you can't be got up and running without too much fuss.


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, Jim Peterson and everyone. As I am getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro from my friend. I have some questions to ask.

1.The 12V 5A adapter, does it have grounding on IEC? Must I have a power cord with ground(3 prong)?

2.The HDMI cable(that I have had) from the Radiance Pro to my projector is Pixelgen 5 meters max 4k interconnect(copper conductor) THX certified cable. It works perfectly with Billy Lynn and Gemini Man at 4k 60Hz HDR 4:2:2(18Gbps). Do you think this HDMI cable works with the Radiance Pro at 18Gbps?

3.Can the Radiance Pro work or have function as HDMI repeater/extender?

Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Nattypol said:


> 1.The 12V 5A adapter, does it have grounding on IEC? Must I have a power cord with ground(3 prong)?
> 
> 2.The HDMI cable(that I have had) from the Radiance Pro to my projector is Pixelgen 5 meters max 4k interconnect(copper conductor) THX certified cable. It works perfectly with Billy Lynn and Gemini Man at 4k 60Hz HDR 4:2:2(18Gbps). Do you think this HDMI cable works with the Radiance Pro at 18Gbps?
> 
> 3.Can the Radiance Pro work or have function as HDMI repeater/extender?
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


1: The power supply is not IEC socket. It is a figure of eight power cable you require and one is provided in the box. If you want an aftermarket one then feel free to replace the suplied one.

2: It may well work perfectly. It may not. You will only find out when you try it.

3: I do not understand this question. What is it you wish to achieve?


----------



## riddle

Nattypol said:


> Hello, Jim Peterson and everyone. As I am getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro from my friend. I have some questions to ask.
> 
> 1.The 12V 5A adapter, does it have grounding on IEC? Must I have a power cord with ground(3 prong)?
> 
> 2.The HDMI cable(that I have had) from the Radiance Pro to my projector is Pixelgen 5 meters max 4k interconnect(copper conductor) THX certified cable. It works perfectly with Billy Lynn and Gemini Man at 4k 60Hz HDR 4:2:2(18Gbps). Do you think this HDMI cable works with the Radiance Pro at 18Gbps?
> 
> 3.Can the Radiance Pro work or have function as HDMI repeater/extender?
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


Hi, I tested my friend Pixelgen cable 3m on my Murideo set Six-A/Six-G and it works well as my Monoprice HDMI cable 3m. I am not sure how 5m will work with 18Gbps but 7,5m doesn't work well. With other HDMI brands I had some issues but now all works great. Kris helped me choose the right HDMI cable to my setup. You can try to ask him for help.


----------



## A7mad78

Nattypol said:


> Hello, Jim Peterson and everyone. As I am getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro from my friend. I have some questions to ask.
> 
> 1.The 12V 5A adapter, does it have grounding on IEC? Must I have a power cord with ground(3 prong)?
> 
> 2.The HDMI cable(that I have had) from the Radiance Pro to my projector is Pixelgen 5 meters max 4k interconnect(copper conductor) THX certified cable. It works perfectly with Billy Lynn and Gemini Man at 4k 60Hz HDR 4:2:2(18Gbps). Do you think this HDMI cable works with the Radiance Pro at 18Gbps?
> 
> 3.Can the Radiance Pro work or have function as HDMI repeater/extender?
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


I use pixelgen all around from 15m with PXLDRIVE Max 4K Extender for the projector and 3 meter for all the source they work perfect for me but hdmi u can’t know where the problem came but for my personal use they work fine in all condition from the pro to projector and for all my source less issue I get was from these cables 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> If you post more detailed info about your setup and screenshots I will be very surprised if you can't be got up and running without too much fuss.


Thanks for the assist. To clarify, I'm just talking standard 3D frame-packed Blu-Ray content, not T/B or SBS. I'll try out your suggestions and share some screenshots.


----------



## garyolearysteele

DannyBoy73 said:


> Anyone got any thoughts on this? I'm interested too as like to play PS4 Pro via LRP and on projector.
> 
> Thanks


I've done some very limited testing with the Lumagen set with its defaults. It hasn't had any calibration yet and its set with default HDR tone mapping settings (which i don't think are a million miles off in terms of 500 for max light using a Sony vw760es). 

One possible problem straight away is that games consoles and individual games prompt you to calibrate the HDR white/black points (the slide this until you can see this image, but not this other image things). As i was doing that it looked like the Lumagen was possibly compensating as i changed settings, e.g. as you move the slider up the image is supposed to disappear into the white background, but in this case it would get lighter then a second later it seemed to restore the contrast until i got high up the scale...

Anyway, overall when using HDR the image was darker and in the defaults doesn't look to be the preferred way to go. This may all change after calibration however.

Interestingly, there is an app on Xbox called Insects which is supposed to demonstrate the benefits of HDR vs SDR. It sends a HDR signal but allows you to flip between HDR enabled and disabled. I'm guessing in this case its SDR in a HDR container (or possibly just a complete con to sell the benefits of a console feature). My Lumagen is currently outputting Rec709 SDR, yet flipping HDR on made a huge difference to the colors. Perhaps i don't understand this stuff well enough, but this seemed to suggest that HDR converted to SDR 709 with the Lumagen looked better and had more colours and contrast than native SDR 709.. though perhaps they used some artistic licence for their rendition of SDR.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> What does yours say on that screen? See attached mine, I just did a factory reset to check it for you.


Did another reset, with save this time. The LG switches properly to 3D mode as expected. However, it shows the picture with a 4:3 aspect ratio instead of 16:9. It's not the Radiance Pro doing the squeezing though. Page 3 shows that the AR is 1.78, as expected. Something is tripping up the display though.

Before the Radiance Pro was added, the Oppo 203 was feeding the LG via a Denon receiver. The Denon is now on Output 1 of the Radiance Pro, while the LG is on Output 4.

What could cause the LG to think it's getting a 4:3 ratio image? In 3D, no less!


----------



## bjorg

AR in the LG is to _Original_. I can override it with 16:9 and then it shows as it should. So it seems some kind of miscommunication between the Radiance Pro and the LG. 

Any ideas why that would be happening? For now, at least, I have a work around.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> AR in the LG is to _Original_. I can override it with 16:9 and then it shows as it should. So it seems some kind of miscommunication between the Radiance Pro and the LG.
> 
> Any ideas why that would be happening? For now, at least, I have a work around.
> 
> View attachment 3041277


You could be looking at a real bug in that case that needs squishing, so communicate it to Lumagen (probably quicker by email - [email protected]) and I'm sure they can work through it with you. I've found them very responsive to issues. @jrp is on here fairly often but they prefer to hear about issues by email I understand.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Roland Janus said:


> Can the Pro do pass-through when switched off?


No.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Chris5 said:


> Does sound pass through I think though


No.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> You could be looking at a real bug in that case that needs squishing, so communicate it to Lumagen (probably quicker by email - [email protected]) and I'm sure they can work through it with you. I've found them very responsive to issues. @jrp is on here fairly often but they prefer to hear about issues by email I understand.


Thanks for the suggestion. I sent an email to support. I avoided @'ing Jim, hoping it was my mistake and I could either figure it out or the someone here could assist. I didn't expect it to be an actual issue with the product (other than the steep learning curve it comes with).


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I sent an email to support. I avoided @'ing Jim, hoping it was my mistake and I could either figure it out or the someone here could assist. I didn't expect it to be an actual issue with the product (other than the steep learning curve it comes with).


I wouldn't like to call it either way, but with a factory reset and those settings in the TV UI as you showed it looks like a possibility. 3D doesn't get a ton of attention these days (either from consumers or manufacturers).

Thinking about it though, as the Lumagen does the aspect control and scaling in most folks systems it may not make much sense to use "Original" which could result in changes in the display. It would make perhaps more sense to fix the display ratio setting to 16:9.

Anyway, be interesting to know what feedback you get.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> Thinking about it though, as the Lumagen does the aspect control and scaling in most folks systems it may not make much sense to use "Original" which could result in changes in the display. It would make perhaps more sense to fix the display ratio setting to 16:9.


Possibly. I need to check what happens with native 4:3 content. Fortunately, that's usually SD. So lots of opportunities to reformat it with virtually no loss of quality.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Possibly. I need to check what happens with native 4:3 content. Fortunately, that's usually SD. So lots of opportunities to reformat it with virtually no loss of quality.


If your source does proper HDMI signalling of aspect ratio you may want to look at the Auto Aspect settings - which can be configured for HDMI based, image based or both aspect detection. I don't think I have any 4:3 content that I watch so can't be much help there I'm afraid.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> If your source does proper HDMI signalling of aspect ratio you may want to look at the Auto Aspect settings - which can be configured for HDMI based, image based or both aspect detection. I don't think I have any 4:3 content that I watch so can't be much help there I'm afraid.


Jim got back to me via the support email. As the (literal) screenshots show, the Radiance Pro isn't converting the resolution (no stretching, no scaling), but for some reason 16:9 content shows up as 4:3 content. The LG TV has a setting to force whatever it receives to be shown as 16:9 aspect ratio, which corrects the issue. 

However, forcing the AR to always be 16:9 in the LG TV had me worried that it would stretch native 4:3 content. Initial testing of some vintage 3D movies with native 4:3 AR (e.g. 3D Rarities, Three Stooges in 3D, etc.) and 4:3 SD content (e.g. Deep Space Nine) hasn't shown any issues. It looks like the 3D Blu-ray content is always encoded for 16:9 AR with forced letterboxes. My SD content is streaming via Apple TV, which seems to letterbox it as well.

In short, forcing at the 16:9 aspect-ratio in the TV has worked so far without adverse side-effects. I'll have to dig up and old DVD to see if that causes issues. However, I'm not likely to ever watch such an old DVD again, so this seems like a wasteful, pedantic exercise.

As far as I can tell, this is some weird handshake issue between the Oppo -> Radiance Pro -> 3D LG TV. I promised Jim to double check all settings on the Oppo and LG TV later today, just in case, but I don't expect to find anything as nothing was changed, to my recollection.


----------



## bjorg

Forcing the TV to 16:9 seems to be the way to go. I tested 4:3 480i encoded content with the Radiance Pro set to auto aspect-ratio and it did the right thing by letterboxing it after a few seconds. I think I'm good with it. If push comes to shove, I can use the 4:3 button on the remote or use one of the memory settings.

Next: output resolution. For all 2D modes, the output configuration is set to _Auto4_, which follows whatever the TV can do. However, I'd like to have the Radiance Pro upscale everything to UHD while matching the source frame rate. Any suggestions on how to achieve this?


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*080720- Posted 092820 *
Added option to HDR max default to 'Always' use the user settable default Max Cll value.
This is usually left at 'Auto' which can use information from the source to augment DTM but if the source is rarely correct it is better to use just the value set for Max default.
This setting is found in the menu under *Input: Options:Hdr Setup: Max Default* . 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
We're very close to having another update that includes a sharpness enhancement option so you may choose to wait and update then.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## DenverMDM

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *080720- Posted 092820 *
> Added option to HDR max default to 'Always' use the user settable default Max Cll value.
> This is usually left at 'Auto' which can use information from the source to augment DTM but if the source is rarely correct it is better to use just the value set for Max default.
> This setting is found in the menu under *Input: Options:Hdr Setup: Max Default* .
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> We're very close to having another update that includes a sharpness enhancement option so you may choose to wait and update then.
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


Been waiting on this like Christmas morning!!!


----------



## docrog

per @jrp : "Added option to HDR max default to 'Always' use the user settable default Max CLL value. This is usually left at 'Auto' which can use information from the source to augment DTM but if the *source is rarely correct* it is better to use just the value set for Max default." With regards to this interim firmware update, could someone explain what source would be "*rarely correct*" for reporting MaxCLL?


----------



## CP850-CLED

bobof said:


> I don't think I have any 4:3 content that I watch so can't be much help there I'm afraid.


Try First Cow most recent release in academy ratio.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> per @jrp : "Added option to HDR max default to 'Always' use the user settable default Max CLL value. This is usually left at 'Auto' which can use information from the source to augment DTM but if the *source is rarely correct* it is better to use just the value set for Max default." With regards to this interim firmware update, could someone explain what source would be "*rarely correct*" for reporting MaxCLL?


this is for folks with the Zappiti or other devices that may compromise the metadata.


----------



## CP850-CLED

Kris Deering said:


> this is for folks with the Zappiti or other devices that may compromise the metadata.


And for K? No?


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> per @jrp : "Added option to HDR max default to 'Always' use the user settable default Max CLL value. This is usually left at 'Auto' which can use information from the source to augment DTM but if the *source is rarely correct* it is better to use just the value set for Max default." With regards to this interim firmware update, could someone explain what source would be "*rarely correct*" for reporting MaxCLL?


It's not just whole players that can be wrong. Certain content played back on the AppleTV is also rarely correct - some of the DV content on ATV4k changes metadata every 30s-5m05s and which metadata you get depends on when in the title you start playback. I'm not sure, but it sounds like this option might help there.


----------



## bjorg

It seems that locking the output resolution, but keeping the refresh rate variable is not an option, correct?


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> It seems that locking the output resolution, but keeping the refresh rate variable is not an option, correct?


Auto4 should autoselect the highest resolution your display on output 4 can do and match the refresh rate. You probably want to make sure you have Rate match enabled, which distinguishes between the integer and non integer rates (23.976 Vs 24). I'm not sure of that is a default or not.

If you want inputs and outputs completely locked together you'd need to enable one of the genlock options. This can increase HDMI jitter so may exasperate issues with marginal gear. Without genlock enabled the input and output are free-running and so you may see an occasional frame drop as the clocks of the Radiance and the player drift past each other.

If automatically using the highest resolution from the EDID on output 4 isn't what you want, then there is a very flexible output configuration interface. Here for example you could set all 24p content to output at 4k24. Note you can set many fields to All which updates for instance all inputs or all memories, or only act on a particular memory and input (which is the default action). Any fields set to ---- means no change will be made. In this way you can change just the resolution for all inputs on a particular memory, while leaving all the CMS settings as-is across different memories, for instance.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bjorg: It is perfectly feasible. You can either do 

MENU 0 8 7 2 - Set output as 4k24, 4k25, 4k50, 4k60 based on input rate

or

Just change the OUTPUT from AUTO 4 as follows in the MENU>OUT section of the set up tree

For ALL INPUTS and ALL MEMORIES
ALL 50Hz output at UHD50Hz
ALL 24Hz output at UHD24Hz
ALL 60Hz output at UHD 60Hz
ALL OTHER output at UHD and whatever frame rate you want to use, i suggest 50Hz in EU countries.

Then MENU>SAVE>SAVE>SAVE

I'd leave the 3D stuff at Auto 4 though as there is no 4K 3D format.


----------



## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> this is for folks with the Zappiti or other devices that may compromise the metadata.


So what is the number to choose then, without having to fiddle the value per movie/serie? 10 000 nits? Is there really a need for such setting at all with DTM?


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> this is for folks with the Zappiti or other devices that may compromise the metadata.


I think the f/w release notes should mention this. I find the f/w release notes description often a bit hard to understand. I think recommendations in the f/w release notes would go a long way in explaining better what these new settings do and who should be using them (and what they should be set to in typical scenarios).


----------



## Kris Deering

CP850-CLED said:


> And for K? No?


Not really. Their metadata for HDR has been pretty good. There are some outliers though.


----------



## Kris Deering

MDesigns said:


> So what is the number to choose then, without having to fiddle the value per movie/serie? 10 000 nits? Is there really a need for such setting at all with DTM?


Definitely not 10,000. There are a lot of rules in place behind the scenes in the Lumagen for metadata and they work fairly well. If you were going to use this feature, I think the one that I would lean toward is 4000 nits.


----------



## bjorg

@bobof and @Gordon Fraser, thank you for taking the time to help out!

For 3D, I'm leaving it to _Auto4_. It's working now with the forced 16:9 AR in the LG TV. That battle was won!

Reading through the _"Lumagen Radiance Pro Setup & Calibration Tips - 2020-08"_ document, it states Genlock is not recommended as of April, 2019. The official docs suggest using it only for 24fps. Is there a community consensus on this? Do I understand it correctly that with GenLock on, the input-output frame rates are automatically in lock step?

Also, I'm operating on the assumption that matching the display frame rate to the source is optimal, while letting the Radiance Pro do all the scaling. Am I correct?


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> @bobof and @Gordon Fraser, thank you for taking the time to help out!
> 
> For 3D, I'm leaving it to _Auto4_. It's working now with the forced 16:9 AR in the LG TV. That battle was won!
> 
> Reading through the _"Lumagen Radiance Pro Setup & Calibration Tips - 2020-08"_ document, it states Genlock is not recommended as of April, 2019. The official docs suggest using it only for 24fps. Is there a community consensus on this? Do I understand it correctly that with GenLock on, the input-output frame rates are automatically in lock step?
> 
> Also, I'm operating on the assumption that matching the display frame rate to the source is optimal, while letting the Radiance Pro do all the scaling. Am I correct?


The genlock enabled option doesn't force the output refresh rate to be the same as the input rate. It merely uses the PLL to keep them synchronous (ie not drifting relative to each other). They can still be different rates I believe. Genlock could still be applicable, for example, for 24p in and 60p out - it would ensure you'd always get 3:2 instead of the occasional cadence blip as the free running clocks pass each other and an adjustment is needed. (note I'm not recommending to use the Pro to convert 24p to 60p!)

I run with genlock on. For my sin (!) it might I guess result in more chance of HDMI not locking, but it seems to work well enough in my system. Unfortunately the Lumagen (as far as I can tell) doesn't provide any useful stats that can show you how frequently a particular source and rate combo would result in a dropped frame without genlock on, and I've never in fairness spent long enough with it off to count how many frames appear to get dropped as it seems to work for me  With a good source you'd hope it wouldn't be many... but I hate seeing dropped frames mid stream and thinking "WTF was that?!", spoils the content for me and takes me right out of it. 

I think from a videofile perspective personally you'd want as little to be happening to the frame rate as possible. So for me that means:
1) a player that outputs 23.976 and 24.000p correctly (and of course all the other rates like 25, 29.97, etc)
2) rate match enabled in the Lumagen (otherwise 23.976p and 24.000p are treated as the same rate which causes quite frequent frame drops if you've found a 24.000p source like many of the new Netflix offerings)
3) genlock on to avoid clock drift between devices causing frame drop or duplication
4) outputting the same frame rate as the input rate

Some folk forego some or all of these in the interest of minimizing black screens from HDMI resyncs, and perhaps to have a more robust system overall, a more seamless presentation, and perhaps they don't notice the poorer cadence (the US has lived with 60p 3:2 pulldown of 24p since like... forever... after all). I guess you pay your money...


----------



## ShaharT

bobof said:


> Auto4 should autoselect the highest resolution your display on output 4 can do and match the refresh rate. You probably want to make sure you have Rate match enabled, which distinguishes between the integer and non integer rates (23.976 Vs 24). I'm not sure of that is a default or not.
> 
> If you want inputs and outputs completely locked together you'd need to enable one of the genlock options. This can increase HDMI jitter so may exasperate issues with marginal gear. Without genlock enabled the input and output are free-running and so you may see an occasional frame drop as the clocks of the Radiance and the player drift past each other.
> 
> If automatically using the highest resolution from the EDID on output 4 isn't what you want, then there is a very flexible output configuration interface. Here for example you could set all 24p content to output at 4k24. Note you can set many fields to All which updates for instance all inputs or all memories, or only act on a particular memory and input (which is the default action). Any fields set to ---- means no change will be made. In this way you can change just the resolution for all inputs on a particular memory, while leaving all the CMS settings as-is across different memories, for instance.


Auto4 on the Sony 995 picks 3840 x 2160 instead of 4096 X 2160. Any chance you could add 'Auto 5'


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Auto4 on the Sony 995 picks 3840 x 2160 instead of 4096 X 2160. Any chance you could add 'Auto 5'


I can't add nuttin...  I'm nothing to do with Lumagen other than owning a Radiance Pro! 
What you're asking doesn't make a ton of sense though. The "4" in "Auto4" means "Output 4". It takes by my understanding whatever the display connected says is in the preferred timing block, and uses that. 

It's pretty quick to set the output stuff up appropriately from the UI, anyway. However, in the manual there is the shortcut code "MENU 0877" which will "Set output as 4096x2160 at 24, 50, 60 Hertz with rate match off". I think you'd (probably) want to use that and the optionally change rate match to be on... Maybe... I dunno. One for folk with DCI projectors or experience thereof to answer.


----------



## bjorg

Okay, I think I got the basics dialed in. Everything is upscaled to UHD and the frame rate is matched to the source. GenLock is enabled. So far, only AppleTV 4K failed to sync once, but switching inputs and back fixed it. Maybe I'll disable GenLock for that input or disable AppleTV from frame rate matching. Either way, it's not one of my high quality input sources anyway.

I still have much to learn and experiment with. For now, I'm going to write down my configuration so I can tweak it over time.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Okay, I think I got the basics dialed in. Everything is upscaled to UHD and the frame rate is matched to the source. GenLock is enabled. So far, only AppleTV 4K failed to sync once, but switching inputs and back fixed it. Maybe I'll disable GenLock for that input or disable AppleTV from frame rate matching. Either way, it's not one of my high quality input sources anyway.
> 
> I still have much to learn and experiment with. For now, I'm going to write down my configuration so I can tweak it over time.


If the AppleTV is your only streaming player and you watch a lot of Netflix originals then there is an argument for disabling rate matching in the AppleTV as they are recently a high proportion of 24.000 titles that the AppleTV drops one frame every 42s on. They're not as noticeable if you output at 60p.

AppleTV I also found to be a bit fussy with what it sees on its output, sometimes I'd get HDCP errors displayed via the AppleTV UI. I have my Harmony remote reboot my AppleTV every time I switch to the AppleTV input now (harmony has a button press available to reboot it). Not seen one of those errors since. That was noted when I was using an HDBaseT extender, and now am using fibre hybrid HDMI, but not got round to testing with the different setup and the reboot removed.


----------



## Des511

I have a Zappiti media player and a Panasonic UHD player. I change the HDR max default to always on with a setting of 4000nits which should will help with the lack of metadata from the Zappiti but what happens when I play a disc from the UHD player that gives the correct metadata with this setting?


----------



## Kris Deering

Des511 said:


> I have a Zappiti media player and a Panasonic UHD player. I change the HDR max default to always on with a setting of 4000nits which should will help with the lack of metadata from the Zappiti but what happens when I play a disc from the UHD player that gives the correct metadata with this setting?


That setting can be set PER INPUT, so no reason to apply the same setting to the Panasonic.


----------



## Des511

Kris Deering said:


> That setting can be set PER INPUT, so no reason to apply the same setting to the Panasonic.


Thanks Kris but I have everything going into my av receiver and then one input into the Lumagen. I could set up a different Memory for the UHD player but was hoping to keep things automatic.


----------



## Kris Deering

Des511 said:


> Thanks Kris but I have everything going into my av receiver and then one input into the Lumagen. I could set up a different Memory for the UHD player but was hoping to keep things automatic.


Yeah, that does limit things for sure. You could do a different Memory, but there is a reason that Lumagen recommends using the Lumagen for switching. Good luck!


----------



## Des511

I


Kris Deering said:


> Yeah, that does limit things for sure. You could do a different Memory, but there is a reason that Lumagen recommends using the Lumagen for switching. Good luck!


Thanks again Kris. I have it this way as I don’t have enough inputs on my Lumagen. My receiver is a NAD T778 which doesn’t touch the video signal and it’s worked really well so far. I’ll use another memory for the Panasonic player.


----------



## bobof

Des511 said:


> Thanks Kris but I have everything going into my av receiver and then one input into the Lumagen. I could set up a different Memory for the UHD player but was hoping to keep things automatic.


If you're using a Harmony remote control, set up virtual inputs on the Lumagen that all use the same physical input. Then you'll be able to have different per-input settings. You just set your Harmony to switch inputs on the Lumagen and the AVR for each activity.

You can have up to 8 virtual inputs, though I did find a UI quirk the other day when you have a 4 input box and are trying to access the virtual inputs 5-8 - they're not available everywhere it seems (the copy input menu if I recall was where I found the issue, which makes managing input settings a little annoying). Patrick at Lumagen told me it wasn't by design though and that they'd look to fix it.

I say Harmony but any type of controller / control system with macros / activities / etc would do.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> If you're using a Harmony remote control, ...


A comment on Harmony remote programming:

The Harmony Elite and other Harmony remotes do not do the correct thing to select a Radiance or Radiance Pro input. The issue is it only sends the input number. Sending only the input number is a shortcut, but only if there is no OSD on the screen. So, this does work if there is no Radiance or Radiance Pro OSD on the screen. However, if the OSD is active (such as after turn on, or aspect selection, etc.) this will _not_ select the intended input. 

What I do with our Harmony Elite controlled family room setup to select a Radiance Pro input is to have the Harmony send the "Clear screen" command (CLR on remote), and then have it send the input number. This is because there is a second issue with the Harmony codes for the Radiance and Radiance Pro. The "Input" button (normally send before the input number when using control systems) is not implemented in their IR code base (at least last time I checked). This turns out to not be an issue since the CLR command clears the OSD and allows the input selection shortcut of just sending the input number to work.

So add a CLR command, followed by the input number you want to select, to each activity. This input selection method works well.


----------



## Mike Garrett

jrp said:


> A comment on Harmony remote programming:
> 
> The Harmony Elite and other Harmony remotes do not do the correct thing to select a Radiance or Radiance Pro input. The issue is it only sends the input number. Sending only the input number is a shortcut, but only if there is no OSD on the screen. So, this does work if there is no Radiance or Radiance Pro OSD on the screen. However, if the OSD is active (such as after turn on, or aspect selection, etc.) this will _not_ select the intended input.
> 
> What I do with our Harmony Elite controlled family room setup to select a Radiance Pro input is to have the Harmony send the "Clear screen" command (CLR on remote), and then have it send the input number. This is because there is a second issue with the Harmony codes for the Radiance and Radiance Pro. The "Input" button (normally send before the input number when using control systems) is not implemented in their IR code base (at least last time I checked). This turns out to not be an issue since the CLR command clears the OSD and allows the input selection shortcut of just sending the input number to work.
> 
> So add a CLR command, followed by the input number you want to select, to each activity. This input selection method works well.


I have set up a Harmony Ultimate and also a Harmony Elite with my system, using input 1 and input 3 on the Lumagen, no virtual inputs and it has been completely trouble free, switching back and forth.

Rather than using the preprogramed signals in Harmony's database, why not teach the correct code to Harmony using the lumagen remote? I did my programing over a year ago, so I may have done this myself. Any way no issues with my system.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> A comment on Harmony remote programming:
> 
> The Harmony Elite and other Harmony remotes do not do the correct thing to select a Radiance or Radiance Pro input. The issue is it only sends the input number. Sending only the input number is a shortcut, but only if there is no OSD on the screen. So, this does work if there is no Radiance or Radiance Pro OSD on the screen. However, if the OSD is active (such as after turn on, or aspect selection, etc.) this will _not_ select the intended input.
> 
> What I do with our Harmony Elite controlled family room setup to select a Radiance Pro input is to have the Harmony send the "Clear screen" command (CLR on remote), and then have it send the input number. This is because there is a second issue with the Harmony codes for the Radiance and Radiance Pro. The "Input" button (normally send before the input number when using control systems) is not implemented in their IR code base (at least last time I checked). This turns out to not be an issue since the CLR command clears the OSD and allows the input selection shortcut of just sending the input number to work.
> 
> So add a CLR command, followed by the input number you want to select, to each activity. This input selection method works well.


I've been caught by this a couple of times but to date have not got round to attacking my Harmony config. It's a shame the Radiance has a bit of a... quirky input selection scheme (2 button sequence) that doesn't map onto any of the Harmony input select models. Maybe you could consider adding discrete IR input codes that are not the number keys; as it is a bit messy to have to edit the startup actions in the activities. Then you could give those to Logitech to update the device with. Not sure it will help with existing installs, but might help with new setups


----------



## Jue Liang

Hi, my Lumagen is coming soon. I have a question regarding its DTM: do I have to upload a 3D lut profile to make Lumagen’s DTM work? I plan to use LightSpace for 3D Lut (I heard it is the best software to work with a Lumagen). I know using 3D Lut with DTM would give me the best result, but I want to use Lumagen’s DTM right away before I spend hours on 3D lut.
Thanks,
Jue


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> I have set up a Harmony Ultimate and also a Harmony Elite with my system, using input 1 and input 3 on the Lumagen, no virtual inputs and it has been completely trouble free, switching back and forth.
> 
> Rather than using the preprogramed signals in Harmony's database, why not teach the correct code to Harmony using the lumagen remote? I did my programing over a year ago, so I may have done this myself. Any way no issues with my system.


The issue is that the numbers alone are not always the correct input key depending on what the OSD is doing, it's INPUT + number (and in the case of the older units with more than 9 inputs I recall 3 keys are required, INPUT + 10+ +number). I don't think you'll have much luck teaching it "input" followed by a number as a single keypress, though you might get away with it if you are fast and consistent on the keys...

It only catches me out occasionally though, but does leave you scratching head a little.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Guys,

I Do-Not currently own any video-processor yet, right Craig Peer 

As I continue to research the Lumagen video processors I just now completed reading a really current article.
I think anyone looking at video processors and especially the Lumagen Pro this is a *Must-Read in my opinion.
(It covers a heck of a lot of informative information guys)*
In my case not being overly technically minded it has added to my overall understanding of the Lumagen Pro and it's abilities.
Personally I feel like when you have a Top-End HT the (Lumagen Pro) seems to be something not to overlook.
I'm on multiple threads here on AVS and most recently on one of the other threads on *All Video Processors*.
I read a few days ago that in a Blind-Test of the person from Australia that did the test along with his five (5) guest.
All six (6) of them picked the Lumagen Pro as the leader currently for any Video Processor on the market.
They actually Tested two (2) of the three (3) current video processors in that test.
I should mention for those not familiar with that Blind-Test or the person performing it for his guest.
He actually owns all three (3) of the current video-processors, madVR - ENVY Xtreme & Lumagen Pro, so he is definitely well educated/knowageable on each one of those.
*Note**
The Lumagen Pro that was used for the test did have the Very-Latest-Software loaded that at the time of the test had not officially been released to the public, yet.
(I think that is going to actually happen in the Very-Near-Future or possibly already has)

I mention the above statement to say to all that based on the below review and how overly impressed they were.
I can only imagine what they would be commenting on now with the Latest/Newest software in the Lumagen Pro.
*Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ 4K Video Processor Review*
By Dylan Seeger | August 24, 2020

*








Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ 4K Video Processor Review - HomeTheaterReview


Dylan says the Radiance Pro is definitely a niche product, but one that has the potential to adapt video to fit the performance capabilities of your projector in a way that no other processing solution currently can.




hometheaterreview.com




*

Terry


----------



## docrog

tigerhonaker said:


> I read a few days ago that in a Blind-Test of the person from Australia that did the test along with his five (5) guest.
> All six (6) of them picked the Lumagen Pro as the leader currently for any Video Processor on the market.
> They actually Tested two (2) of the three (3) current video processors in that test.
> I should mention for those not familiar with that Blind-Test or the person performing it for his guest.
> He actually owns all three (3) of the current video-processors, madVR - ENVY Xtreme & Lumagen Pro, so he is definitely well educated/knowledgeable on each one of those.
> *Note**
> The Lumagen Pro that was used for the test did have the Very-Latest-Software loaded that at the time of the test had not officially been released to the public, yet.
> (I think that is going to actually happen in the Very-Near-Future or possibly already has).Terry


FYI, the results of the blind face off by @woofer was posted here several days ago.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Jue Liang said:


> I have a question regarding its DTM: do I have to upload a 3D lut profile to make Lumagen’s DTM work? I plan to use LightSpace for 3D Lut (I heard it is the best software to work with a Lumagen). I know using 3D Lut with DTM would give me the best result, but I want to use Lumagen’s DTM right away before I spend hours on 3D lut.


Hi,
you can get DTM working without uploading a 3D LUT.


----------



## Jue Liang

KarlKlammer said:


> Hi,
> you can get DTM working without uploading a 3D LUT.


Thanks!


----------



## bjorg

With all of my basic settings dialed in, I'd love to get some advice on how to control "brightness" in the display for SDR sources. Specifically, I set the OLED light to 100% on my LG OLED77G6. This setting is shared across all Lumagen inputs and outputs. For HDR sources, this works well as it gives the SDR2020 output some good headroom. However, plain SDR content is too bright to watch in the evening. So I set my SDR CMS to use *White -30*, which seems to work, but I wonder if there are other/better ways to accomplish this.


----------



## bjorg

As a feature request: I would love to see frame interpolation for animation. Doubling the animation frames would already be a big improvement. Animation on large digital displays is rather jerky otherwise.


----------



## MOberhardt

bjorg said:


> As a feature request: I would love to see frame interpolation for animation. Doubling the animation frames would already be a big improvement. Animation on large digital displays is rather jerky otherwise.


Hmm, that is an interesting idea. You mean it would detect that the animation was animated at 12p like a lot of cel animation was, and discarding each second frame and interpolating? Interesting concept.

On another note. this might be a dumb question, but for 3D blu ray content, what can/does the radiance do? I take it you can't send a 4k frame packed 3d, but does it do anything else?


----------



## bjorg

MOberhardt said:


> On another note. this might be a dumb question, but for 3D blu ray content, what can/does the radiance do? I take it you can't send a 4k frame packed 3d, but does it do anything else?


It can apply Darbee to 3D content though! Give a bit of extra crisp. Also, much to my surprise, the LG TV seems happy with 3D in SDR2020. Not sure there is any benefit though.


----------



## CP850-CLED

bjorg said:


> With all of my basic settings dialed in, I'd love to get some advice on how to control "brightness" in the display for SDR sources. Specifically, I set the OLED light to 100% on my LG OLED77G6. This setting is shared across all Lumagen inputs and outputs. For HDR sources, this works well as it gives the SDR2020 output some good headroom. However, plain SDR content is too bright to watch in the evening. So I set my SDR CMS to use *White -30*, which seems to work, but I wonder if there are other/better ways to accomplish this.


This is something I did a few months ago but try it.
You may want to setup the white level as you have and then go to _Service Mode_. MENU 0 9 1 0 

When playing hdr hit the left arrow and you will see an expanded set of controls available, namely gamma and black level, on a DCI RGB laser gamma is more natural just under 1.0, the black level increase combined with a lower target nits and the max-min cll. manipulation may work. Play with those and save it on a memory. these controls are not available for SDR that is why you must adjust the SDR first in the general settings. and then up your hdr punch on the left arrow tweaked memory.


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> On another note. this might be a dumb question, but for 3D blu ray content, what can/does the radiance do? I take it you can't send a 4k frame packed 3d, but does it do anything else?


In my system I use the following features with 3D content:
1D/3D LUT correction (particularly useful if you compensate out the glasses tint)
Aspect detection for control of my mask screen 
Format detection for contol of my display



bjorg said:


> It can apply Darbee to 3D content though! Give a bit of extra crisp. Also, much to my surprise, the LG TV seems happy with 3D in SDR2020. Not sure there is any benefit though.


I probably wouldn't do that, I can only see downsides (particularly if you don't have a 3DLUT mapping the SDR2020 result in your display).


----------



## garyolearysteele

fatherom said:


> OK, I have some more concrete info. May repeat myself a bit, because I plan to copy/paste this and email it to Jim at Lumagen as well...but curious if others can reproduce this:
> 
> *Star Trek (2009)*
> 1:30:25 and 1:30:55 - The close up shots containing Spock's face are more dull looking that the surrounding shots of the close up shots containing Kirk's face.
> 
> *Kick-Ass*
> 00:02:46 - Main character is walking down the school hallway, looks at a girl putting on makeup, girl is annoyed, then they show a long shot (from the character's POV) of a hallway with light pouring in from windows (on the left) and hitting the floor. For me, that shot is SUPER bright compared to the shots that come before and after.
> 
> I have DPad at 1 (instead of default 3). Game mode is off. I have desat set to Low (instead of Auto).
> 
> When reviewing the Kick-Ass scene in particular, sometimes I would have to rewind about 1 minute before the offending scene so that DTM would have enough lead time to cause the problem.
> 
> I watched these same scenes on my iPad (iTunes, yes admittedly a bit apples and oranges), just to confirm that these shots don't have this level of brightness disparity baked into the content. They don't appear to. The brightness is consistent within these sections of the film, when viewing on my iPad.
> 
> I watch something nearly every night, and these anomalies seem more prevalent since I installed 080120.


Sorry if i missed a later message with a solution, however i just had a fairly similar issue. If you hit the ok button a few times and look for the info screen with "Game: 1" or "Game: 0"... even if your settings show that game mode is disabled, for some reason mine was actually enabled even though the settings show "Game Mode: No". I resolved it by changing it to yes then back to no, apply to all inputs and all memories (it didnt work the first time when i only selected memory A).. then the problem seems to have stopped. My issue most of the time looked like a flicker between scene cuts where the DTM seemed to be a frame behind, i captured an image that showed half the frame lighter than the rest, giving a blink/screen tear affect. Other times though it was like you describe, scene cut then a scene with no DTM and then back again. 

Not yet fully tested but i had a scene at the start of Max Max: Fury road which almost always did it, ran the scene 3 times and I didn't see the issue.


----------



## fatherom

garyolearysteele said:


> Sorry if i missed a later message with a solution, however i just had a fairly similar issue. If you hit the ok button a few times and look for the info screen with "Game: 1" or "Game: 0"... even if your settings show that game mode is disabled, for some reason mine was actually enabled even though the settings show "Game Mode: No". I resolved it by changing it to yes then back to no, apply to all inputs and all memories (it didnt work the first time when i only selected memory A).. then the problem seems to have stopped. My issue most of the time looked like a flicker between scene cuts where the DTM seemed to be a frame behind, i captured an image that showed half the frame lighter than the rest, giving a blink/screen tear affect. Other times though it was like you describe, scene cut then a scene with no DTM and then back again.
> 
> Not yet fully tested but i had a scene at the start of Max Max: Fury road which almost always did it, ran the scene 3 times and I didn't see the issue.


Thanks for that suggestion. I just checked and my Game Mode says "0" on the OK/enter info screens. I wasn't seeing a flicker like you're describing, it's more an overall brightness shift on challenging DTM back-and-forth camera cuts. I'm going to reset my DTM settings and test again with the new f/w when it comes out.


----------



## bobof

garyolearysteele said:


> Sorry if i missed a later message with a solution, however i just had a fairly similar issue. If you hit the ok button a few times and look for the info screen with "Game: 1" or "Game: 0"... even if your settings show that game mode is disabled, for some reason mine was actually enabled even though the settings show "Game Mode: No". I resolved it by changing it to yes then back to no, apply to all inputs and all memories (it didnt work the first time when i only selected memory A).. then the problem seems to have stopped. My issue most of the time looked like a flicker between scene cuts where the DTM seemed to be a frame behind, i captured an image that showed half the frame lighter than the rest, giving a blink/screen tear affect. Other times though it was like you describe, scene cut then a scene with no DTM and then back again.
> 
> Not yet fully tested but i had a scene at the start of Max Max: Fury road which almost always did it, ran the scene 3 times and I didn't see the issue.


@jrp did note somewhere that game mode is a frame behind on the DTM changes. I don't know if it would be classed as a bug if you're actually seeing it apply the DTM stuff halfway through the frame or not - I guess it is updating the DTM as soon as it can. They did ask to be told of examples of tearing.


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.
I have been reading the manual of the Radiance Pro. For passive HDMI cables, Tributaries UHD is recommended. I see 4 series in Tributaries website. Can I use UHDP PRO series as my attached photo?
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## GerryWaz

That's the cable that I use with great success. Highly recommended. 

Jim recommended it to avoid issues. Only issue that I've ever had was some "knucklehead" not plugging in a cable properly. 

Just recently needed the 3.0m version, which I couldn't find. Bought from Lumagen direct. Easy and quick delivery.


----------



## Craig Peer

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I have been reading the manual of the Radiance Pro. For passive HDMI cables, Tributaries UHD is recommended. I see 4 series in Tributaries website. Can I use UHDP PRO series as my attached photo?
> Thank you for your help and support.


I got some Tributaries HDMI cables from Jim at Lumagen too. And they work.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> In my system I use the following features with 3D content:
> 1D/3D LUT correction (particularly useful if you compensate out the glasses tint)
> Aspect detection for control of my mask screen
> Format detection for contol of my display
> 
> 
> I probably wouldn't do that, I can only see downsides (particularly if you don't have a 3DLUT mapping the SDR2020 result in your display).


I am curious if you placed the 3D glasses over the light meter when performing the calibration for 3D?

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## garyolearysteele

bobof said:


> @jrp did note somewhere that game mode is a frame behind on the DTM changes. I don't know if it would be classed as a bug if you're actually seeing it apply the DTM stuff halfway through the frame or not - I guess it is updating the DTM as soon as it can. They did ask to be told of examples of tearing.


No I wouldn’t consider it a bug really, it’s one of those things where Game modes on all devices disable image processing features so it’s expected. The processing overhead needs to be cut somewhere, games won’t have too many scene cuts so I doubt you’d notice. However, I never enabled game mode, it said it was disabled in the settings but was still actually enabled, so that may well be a bug which I’ve reported. 

On the subject of game mode, any gamers here use HDR mode for games?

If so, how do you deal with those calibration screens that are presented at the start to set white/black point.

I found DTM was fighting with it as I was sliding the brightness settings. If you set them as instructed, when you go back they aren’t the same. I guess they are there to set to the abilities of your display, but the dynamic nature of DTM means it will change and you’re probably working with the parameters set when the calibration screen first loaded... (guessing)

For now I’ve disabled HDR, I don’t know if there are going to be benefits to 4K HDR games vs 4K SDR, opinions welcome on that


----------



## bobof

garyolearysteele said:


> No I wouldn’t consider it a bug really, it’s one of those things where Game modes on all devices disable image processing features so it’s expected. The processing overhead needs to be cut somewhere, games won’t have too many scene cuts so I doubt you’d notice. However, I never enabled game mode, it said it was disabled in the settings but was still actually enabled, so that may well be a bug which I’ve reported.
> 
> On the subject of game mode, any gamers here use HDR mode for games?
> 
> If so, how do you deal with those calibration screens that are presented at the start to set white/black point.
> 
> I found DTM was fighting with it as I was sliding the brightness settings. If you set them as instructed, when you go back they aren’t the same. I guess they are there to set to the abilities of your display, but the dynamic nature of DTM means it will change and you’re probably working with the parameters set when the calibration screen first loaded... (guessing)
> 
> For now I’ve disabled HDR, I don’t know if there are going to be benefits to 4K HDR games vs 4K SDR, opinions welcome on that


I must say, gaming in HDR and then tone mapping in a Radiance seems such a waste of effort to me - given the content is all generated on the fly in the computer or console, it seems a giant shame they can't just have a tone mapping engine or plugin of some sort running on the GPU.


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> I am curious if you placed the 3D glasses over the light meter when performing the calibration for 3D?


Is there any other way?  Not light meter though, colorimeter + spectro. I have a light meter somewhere but never bother with it as the light readings from the colorimeter are really good enough.

Per advice from @Gordon Fraser - the best way to do it is to generate the meter correction matrix facing the screen through the glasses lens using your spectro, and then because of the reduced light for 3D you can use your colorimeter either facing the screen or facing the lens if you have a diffuser. If you do the whole profile through the glasses it will be a bit crappy or slow or both depending on meter.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Is there any other way?  Not light meter though, colorimeter + spectro. I have a light meter somewhere but never bother with it as the light readings from the colorimeter are really good enough.
> 
> Per advice from @Gordon Fraser - the best way to do it is to generate the meter correction matrix facing the screen through the glasses lens using your spectro, and then because of the reduced light for 3D you can use your colorimeter either facing the screen or facing the lens if you have a diffuser. If you do the whole profile through the glasses it will be a bit crappy or slow or both depending on meter.


Thank you.

My mistake on the terminology: light meter is incorrect. When I performed the calibration, I used ChromaPure, and ran the whole profile with the glasses on the front of the i1Display 3 Pro. I now have ColourSpace, so when I do this the next time, it seems like you are saying to profile the meter with the glasses on (CS can profile, IIRC), and then remove them to run the auto-calibration with the colorimeter profile? Note: I haven't actually used ColourSpace yet.


----------



## garyolearysteele

bobof said:


> I must say, gaming in HDR and then tone mapping in a Radiance seems such a waste of effort to me - given the content is all generated on the fly in the computer or console, it seems a giant shame they can't just have a tone mapping engine or plugin of some sort running on the GPU.


Some games seem a lot better than others. Before i put the Lumagen in i found some games like The Last of Us 2 on PS4 looked noticeably better than SDR. Some have a more detailed initial setup and work well. There are some others, like Red Dead Redemption 2 which isnt actually HDR at all but 8-bit SDR in a 10-bit HDR container to tick the box for that feature. I need to do more testing and see if i can figure out how to set them up initially, what DTM settings work well etc, from what i've seen i'm not sure its going to be the same as it is for movies/TV. Also of note was the PS4 Pro sent a MaxCLL value of 0 to the Lumagen, probably a candidate for the new setting released in the recent firmware.


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> When I performed the calibration, I used ChromaPure, and ran the whole profile with the glasses on the front of the i1Display 3 Pro. I now have ColourSpace, so when I do this the next time, it seems like you are saying to profile the meter with the glasses on (CS can profile, IIRC), and then remove them to run the auto-calibration with the colorimeter profile? Note: I haven't actually used ColourSpace yet.


Yes, exactly that. If you only have a colorimeter you can put the glasses on for the reference part of the profile and take them off for the meter profile. You then have fast colorimeter measurements with the offset of the glasses  

From what I remember, unless Chromapure limits you to doing reference measurements from spectros only, you could probably do it with Chromapure too. But Colourspace is a much better tool for 3D LUTs.


----------



## tigerhonaker

*Lumagen owners,*

In reading about the Lumagen Pro Model 4242.
I saw in one of the reviews that it said something like,
You can install the Lumagen and turn it on without calibrating anything as it has a default auto engaged out of the box.
Guys, before you go off the deep-end I already know the above sentence is not exact it's all I can recall in general to ask the question on here.

Is that correct that if I have my A/V tech do the install for me until Chad B comes to do the actual custom calibrating.
I or the tech can simply turn it on and it will perform right out of the box without us having to do anything at all regarding calibrating it ???

Please-please guys keep your replies simple and yes I know I can E-Mail Jim P. and ask him but I thought just maybe a few of you actual owner's might help me.

Thanks guys,
Terry


----------



## A7mad78

tigerhonaker said:


> *Lumagen owners,*
> 
> In reading about the Lumagen Pro Model 4242.
> I saw in one of the reviews that it said something like,
> You can install the Lumagen and turn it on without calibrating anything as it has a default auto engaged out of the box.
> Guys, before you go off the deep-end I already know the above sentence is not exact it's all I can recall in general to ask the question on here.
> 
> Is that correct that if I have my A/V tech do the install for me until Chad B comes to do the actual custom calibrating.
> I or the tech can simply turn it on and it will perform right out of the box without us having to do anything at all regarding calibrating it ???
> 
> Please-please guys keep your replies simple and yes I know I can E-Mail Jim P. and ask him but I thought just maybe a few of you actual owner's might help me.
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


It can work without setup or the dealer you buy from can do basic setup for you but far much different if it setup and calibrated by an expert 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike Garrett

tigerhonaker said:


> *Lumagen owners,*
> 
> In reading about the Lumagen Pro Model 4242.
> I saw in one of the reviews that it said something like,
> You can install the Lumagen and turn it on without calibrating anything as it has a default auto engaged out of the box.
> Guys, before you go off the deep-end I already know the above sentence is not exact it's all I can recall in general to ask the question on here.
> 
> Is that correct that if I have my A/V tech do the install for me until Chad B comes to do the actual custom calibrating.
> I or the tech can simply turn it on and it will perform right out of the box without us having to do anything at all regarding calibrating it ???
> 
> Please-please guys keep your replies simple and yes I know I can E-Mail Jim P. and ask him but I thought just maybe a few of you actual owner's might help me.
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


I would mount it in your rack yourself and the day Chad is supposed to arrive, connect the cables your self or let Chad connect the cables. If you only have two sources, you would connect the sources directly to the Lumagen, using input 1 and input 3. Then the HDMI cable that goes to your projector, would connect to output 2 on Lumagen. Output 1 on the Lumagen goes back to your AVR to which ever input you choose to use. I use Blu Ray. Once Lumagen is installed, you no longer do any switching with your AVR. You switch inputs on the Lumagen.


----------



## audioguy

Yes (sort of) but you are not getting anywhere near the value of the Lumagen (e.g. 3D LUT calibration) if you do just that. Forgetting about that aspect for the moment, it is still not exactly plug and play - but if you purchased one from someone like Kris Deering, Jim Peterson of Lumagen, Adam Pelz, Craig Rounds (from whom I purchased mine) or maybe even Mike Garrett over the phone they could walk you through the basic settings to best use the HDR tone mapping, Darbee settings, etc. It is a way to get started.

*Here* is a link to two brand new ones for great prices:


----------



## docrog

tigerhonaker said:


> *Lumagen owners,*
> 
> In reading about the Lumagen Pro Model 4242.
> I saw in one of the reviews that it said something like,
> You can install the Lumagen and turn it on without calibrating anything as it has a default auto engaged out of the box.
> Guys, before you go off the deep-end I already know the above sentence is not exact it's all I can recall in general to ask the question on here.
> 
> Is that correct that if I have my A/V tech do the install for me until Chad B comes to do the actual custom calibrating.
> I or the tech can simply turn it on and it will perform right out of the box without us having to do anything at all regarding calibrating it ???
> 
> Please-please guys keep your replies simple and yes I know I can E-Mail Jim P. and ask him but I thought just maybe a few of you actual owner's might help me.
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


Just remember, that if you hook it up the way that Mike describes you won't have any access to your Marantz's GUI: you'd have to run a separate video from the Marantz to your 4500 and switch the 4500 source each time you wanted to see the GUI. Your alternative to having the 4242 do your switching, you could position the 4242 AFTER the Marantz. Your Marantz is state of the art and the Lumagen will work perfectly with this configuration. Your Marantz will do the switching and you'll still have access to the Marantz GUI. Also, you won't need to split your source's feeds into audio (to the Marantz) and video (to the 4242). Much cleaner that way!


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> Just remember, that if you hook it up the way that Mike describes you won't have any access to your Marantz's GUI: you'd have to run a separate video from the Marantz to your 4500 and switch the 4500 source each time you wanted to see the GUI. Your alternative to having the 4242 do your switching, you could position the 4242 AFTER the Marantz. Your Marantz is state of the art and the Lumagen will work perfectly with this configuration. Your Marantz will do the switching and you'll still have access to the Marantz GUI. Also, you won't need to split your source's feeds into audio (to the Marantz) and video (to the 4242). Much cleaner that way!





tigerhonaker said:


> *Lumagen owners,*
> 
> In reading about the Lumagen Pro Model 4242.
> I saw in one of the reviews that it said something like,
> You can install the Lumagen and turn it on without calibrating anything as it has a default auto engaged out of the box.
> Guys, before you go off the deep-end I already know the above sentence is not exact it's all I can recall in general to ask the question on here.
> 
> Is that correct that if I have my A/V tech do the install for me until Chad B comes to do the actual custom calibrating.
> I or the tech can simply turn it on and it will perform right out of the box without us having to do anything at all regarding calibrating it ???
> 
> Please-please guys keep your replies simple and yes I know I can E-Mail Jim P. and ask him but I thought just maybe a few of you actual owner's might help me.
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


However, if you use the Marantz for HDMI switching, you will be unable to configure the Lumagen with unique settings per source.


----------



## bobof

Karl Maga said:


> However, if you use the Marantz for HDMI switching, you will be unable to configure the Lumagen with unique settings per source.


Nothing to stop you using virtual inputs to achieve that.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> Just remember, that if you hook it up the way that Mike describes you won't have any access to your Marantz's GUI: you'd have to run a separate video from the Marantz to your 4500 and switch the 4500 source each time you wanted to see the GUI. Your alternative to having the 4242 do your switching, you could position the 4242 AFTER the Marantz. Your Marantz is state of the art and the Lumagen will work perfectly with this configuration. Your Marantz will do the switching and you'll still have access to the Marantz GUI. Also, you won't need to split your source's feeds into audio (to the Marantz) and video (to the 4242). Much cleaner that way!


I don't miss having the GUI onscreen at all. In fact, it's less of a distraction, and as a bonus, my wife has no clue what the volume level is at - which can be helpful ! And if I need to run Audyssey or access the receiver menu ( rarely ), I switch to HDMI input 2 on my RS4500, from my X8500H. No problem.


----------



## audioguy

Other than not seeing the volume, I see no advantage to not using the Lumagen as the video switcher. I have other ways to see the volume.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Guys,

Is this what your actually saying to this UN-Tech Savvy soon to be Lumagen Pro 4242 "Dumb-Ass".  

If the Lumagen is not hooked up after the Marantz AV8805 I will *Not* have any of the *On-Screen-Information* I now see ???
That's either a Yes or No don't make this complicated guys. 

Okay, seems like if that's correct above *^^^* I really-really like seeing what I'm doing as in the button/buttons I'm touching on the Remotes !!!
Maybe I should also mention this is a Gift 🎁 from Cathy (wife) to me so read the next-line.
*Also, I'm a 37-year plus Happily Married guy and want to keep it that way so Cathy would KILL me if she couldn't see what's happening on the screen.*

Looks like this is now coming down to the Chad B and asking him ???
I was hoping that since I already have spoken to Chad multiple times on this and knowing I *Won't* see him until the end of this month (October).
I could go ahead and have my Tech come and do the install and turn the Lumagen on if in-fact it would *Not *have *Any "Negative-Effects"* on the video ???
I do totally understand that the Lumagen is not going to be doing anything remotely performance wise until Chad B does the Custom Calibrating.
I was simply wanting to get it installed before Chad B came so all he would have to do is the Custom Calibrating.

Well, seems maybe what I read in that review might have not been totally accurate ???
They did not say it was going to be like having it Custom Calibrated only that it would work and cause nothing bad with the video.
Until the Professional came to do his thing.

You know what this really now comes down to ???
If the "Lumagen" is hooked-up after the Marantz will that cause anything negative to the Lumagen performance ???

Oh, Crag Peer will be the sales person guys.

Terry


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Other than not seeing the volume, I see no advantage to not using the Lumagen as the video switcher. I have other ways to see the volume.


Same here.


----------



## Des511

My advantage of using the receiver as the switcher is that I have 5 devices but only 4 inputs on the Lumagen.


----------



## GerryWaz

tigerhonaker said:


> Guys,
> 
> Is this what your actually saying to this UN-Tech Savvy soon to be Lumagen Pro 4242 "Dumb-Ass".
> 
> If the Lumagen is not hooked up after the Marantz AV8805 I will *Not* have any of the *On-Screen-Information* I now see ???
> That's either a Yes or No don't make this complicated guys.
> 
> Okay, seems like if that's correct above *^^^* I really-really like seeing what I'm doing as in the button/buttons I'm touching on the Remotes !!!
> Maybe I should also mention this is a Gift 🎁 from Cathy (wife) to me so read the next-line.
> *Also, I'm a 37-year plus Happily Married guy and want to keep it that way so Cathy would KILL me if she couldn't see what's happening on the screen.*
> 
> Looks like this is now coming down to the Chad B and asking him ???
> I was hoping that since I already have spoken to Chad multiple times on this and knowing I *Won't* see him until the end of this month (October).
> I could go ahead and have my Tech come and do the install and turn the Lumagen on if in-fact it would *Not *have *Any "Negative-Effects"* on the video ???
> I do totally understand that the Lumagen is not going to be doing anything remotely performance wise until Chad B does the Custom Calibrating.
> I was simply wanting to get it installed before Chad B came so all he would have to do is the Custom Calibrating.
> 
> Well, seems maybe what I read in that review might have not been totally accurate ???
> They did not say it was going to be like having it Custom Calibrated only that it would work and cause nothing bad with the video.
> Until the Professional came to do his thing.
> 
> You know what this really now comes down to ???
> If the "Lumagen" is hooked-up after the Marantz will that cause anything negative to the Lumagen performance ???
> 
> Oh, Crag Peer will be the sales person guys.
> 
> Terry


I have the Radiance 4446+ and use it with a Marantz AV8805. I let the Radiance do all the switching and just send audio to the AV8805. I've seen nothing negative to the Lumagen's performance with this set up. Works just wonderfully for us. 

At first, I thought I'd miss the OSD from the Marantz, but after many months without it, I find I really don't miss it at all. Of course, YMMV. 

If I ever do need to "see" something from the AV8805 (and that's rare), I have an old iPad in my viewing room and it runs the old DeRemote app (a third-party app for controlling a Denon or Marantz unit). Even though the DeRemote app is now five years old, and might benefit from a little updating, it works pretty good showing me most of the common settings I need to see and change. (Marantz has their own remote control app but it's pretty limited, IMVHO.) 

You could also also access many of the AV8805's settings via its IP address on your network with a browser. But that's not very user-friendly and lags a bit at times, and things are spread out all over the place. Sort of resembles the AV8805's setup menu.


----------



## SJHT

There are also remotes that provide feedback on volume, etc.


----------



## Craig Peer

GerryWaz said:


> I have the Radiance 4446+ and use it with a Marantz AV8805. I let the Radiance do all the switching and just send audio to the AV8805. I've seen nothing negative to the Lumagen's performance with this set up. Works just wonderfully for us.
> 
> At first, I thought I'd miss the OSD from the Marantz, but after many months without it, I find I really don't miss it at all. Of course, YMMV.
> 
> *If I ever do need to "see" something from the AV8805 (and that's rare), I have an old iPad in my viewing room and it runs the old DeRemote app (a third-party app for controlling a Denon or Marantz unit). Even though the DeRemote app is now five years old, and might benefit from a little updating, it works pretty good showing me most of the common settings I need to see and change. * (Marantz has their own remote control app but it's pretty limited, IMVHO.)
> 
> You could also also access many of the AV8805's settings via its IP address on your network with a browser. But that's not very user-friendly and lags a bit at times, and things are spread out all over the place. Sort of resembles the AV8805's setup menu.


Does that app work well ? it's only $ 5.00 !


----------



## docrog

GerryWaz said:


> I have the Radiance 4446+ and use it with a Marantz AV8805. I let the Radiance do all the switching and just send audio to the AV8805. I've seen nothing negative to the Lumagen's performance with this set up. Works just wonderfully for us.
> 
> At first, I thought I'd miss the OSD from the Marantz, but after many months without it, I find I really don't miss it at all. Of course, YMMV.
> 
> If I ever do need to "see" something from the AV8805 (and that's rare), I have an old iPad in my viewing room and it runs the old DeRemote app (a third-party app for controlling a Denon or Marantz unit). Even though the DeRemote app is now five years old, and might benefit from a little updating, it works pretty good showing me most of the common settings I need to see and change. (Marantz has their own remote control app but it's pretty limited, IMVHO.)
> 
> You could also also access many of the AV8805's settings via its IP address on your network with a browser. But that's not very user-friendly and lags a bit at times, and things are spread out all over the place. Sort of resembles the AV8805's setup menu.


AFAIK, there is NO disadvantage to keeping the AVR/Pre-Pro as the switching device since, as @bobof indicated, you can always use the Radiance Pro's virtual inputs if you need to configure sources individually. In performing his calibration, Craig Rounds found that there was no need to configure individual sources, so my 4240 is essentially a one step-turn on process. Besides, in addition to volume, I use the AVR's GUI to (as necessary) double check on audio codecs/DSPs, lip sync, etc. and make changes when needed. I see NO value in splitting the audio & video feeds from sources with current generations of AVR/Pre-Pro devices and can't understand why every user wouldn't opt for that additional flexibility when there's no apparent downside for the vast majority of HTs. Furthermore, being able to purchase the 4240 (no longer available in the current Lumagen line) saved me several hundreds of dollars over the 4242 (and higher models) because my configuration now only requires a single HDMI input to the Lumagen. The 4242 seems to add unnecessary costs for what's needed in a state of the art HT, especially if one has only 2 video sources or a compatible AVR/Pre-Pro.


----------



## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Same here.


Ditto. I couldn't wait to take my MX160's clunky video handling out the chain and let the Lumagen handle things. If I ever need to see what's happening with the MX160 without getting off the sofa, I pull up the webbrowser MX160 GUI on my phone.


----------



## Mike Garrett

I ran second HDMI cable, so I can switch to input 2 and see OSD, but really only time I do that is for audio calibration. As for knowing what volume level, I usually watch pretty much at the same level for most movies. So I have the Marantz prepro set to power on at a set volume level. Then I just keep up with how many clicks I increased the volume, with two clicks being 1 db.


----------



## docrog

I honestly don't understand why so many of you choose to opt for less than optimal flexibility, especially when it means needing more HDMI connections and/or a second video run to the projector to be able to make use of the GUI from a current generation AVR/Pre-Pro. Not having your wife know the volume? Having to access a web browser? I can assure you that my HDMI video handshake is every bit as fast & solid using the RX-A3080 as it would be when using the Radiance Pro as my switching device. I'd very much appreciate understanding the downside of this more full featured video chain configuration, rather than reading idiosyncratic justifications for separating each source's audio & video outputs (when available) if the end user has a "non-clunky" current generation AVR/Pre-Pro (Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, etc.).


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> I honestly don't understand why so many of you choose to opt for less than optimal flexibility, especially when it means needing more HDMI connections and/or a second video run to the projector to be able to make use of the GUI from a current generation AVR/Pre-Pro. Not having your wife know the volume? Having to access a web browser? I can assure you that my HDMI video handshake is every bit as fast & solid using the RX-A3080 as it would be when using the Radiance Pro as my switching device. I'd very much appreciate understanding the downside of this more full featured video chain configuration, rather than reading idiosyncratic justifications for separating each source's audio & video outputs (when available) if the end user has a "non-clunky" current generation AVR/Pre-Pro (Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, etc.).


You do not need a high end 18G cable for this secondary cable. So when I had to upgrade my HDMI cable I just left the old one in place and used it for the secondary cable.


----------



## docrog

Mike Garrett said:


> You do not need a high end 18G cable for this secondary cable. So when I had to upgrade my HDMI cable I just left the old one in place and used it for the secondary cable.


But, for those who are planning for the future or only have a single run to the PJ, isn't it more advantageous if you don't REQUIRE the second cable for an optimal AVR/Radiance Pro experience?


----------



## Peule_P

Also keep in mind that many AVR’s or pre/pro’s that ‘inject’ an OSD into the video path requires additional circuitry and manipulation of the video signal.
Hence this could ‘possibly’ degrade the video signal quality!

I’m not saying all AVR’s do, but most will, I believe this is also one of the reasons why Lumagen recommends to use the Radiance as a switcher and only route audio to your AVR (or pre/pro)


----------



## SJHT

Just feed the output from your audio processor into another input of your Lumagen Pro. This will also be a feature WHENEVER they finally add PIP/POP! You can overlay the volume graphics. SJ


----------



## docrog

This all sounds like an unnecessary amount of routing/re-routing if one's processor doesn't manipulate the video signal (other than, possibly, when the GUI briefly is on-screen) until the day that PIP/POP is realized and found to be of significant value in ordinary operation. My AVR is located behind a solid door, so I'm not able to view its display. I use the GUI almost every time that I play a Blu-Ray (1080p/UHD) to make sure that I've selected the proper DSP (Dolby vs DTS processing) to mesh with whatever the source material requires. Additionally, depending on the source, there can be a mismatch with audio sync and I find it far more optimal to manage lip sync via the AVR, rather than attempting to accomplish it via the Lumagen. The GUI also comes in handy in other, less frequent, situations.

I guess my final suggestion on the subject would be: "don't knock it if you haven't tried it".....


----------



## MOberhardt

docrog said:


> I honestly don't understand why so many of you choose to opt for less than optimal flexibility, especially when it means needing more HDMI connections and/or a second video run to the projector to be able to make use of the GUI from a current generation AVR/Pre-Pro. Not having your wife know the volume? Having to access a web browser? I can assure you that my HDMI video handshake is every bit as fast & solid using the RX-A3080 as it would be when using the Radiance Pro as my switching device. I'd very much appreciate understanding the downside of this more full featured video chain configuration, rather than reading idiosyncratic justifications for separating each source's audio & video outputs (when available) if the end user has a "non-clunky" current generation AVR/Pre-Pro (Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, etc.).


I guess each has their own pros and cons. From my perspective, I prefer manual switching which I do with my harmony. I will sometimes start up other sources and I don't want the display to switch (eg I might start a device just to put in a disk when I'm watching something on another device). I do know that when I get one, I'll use exactly one input, from the AVR and one output, to the projector... And I'm probably going to locate it at the rear of the room, with the projector.

The other thing is reprogramming the harmony is a bit of a nuisance!


----------



## SJHT

The thing about just routing the audio output To another input is that you can always use that input to utilize the full setup GUI if desired occasionally. My audio processor doesn’t even have an OSD but my last one did and used from time to time. I want PIP/POP so I can watch sports and play Xbox..


----------



## Karl Maga

Mike Garrett said:


> You do not need a high end 18G cable for this secondary cable. So when I had to upgrade my HDMI cable I just left the old one in place and used it for the secondary cable.


Exactly what I did. Also, I don’t care about the AVR GUI.


----------



## GerryWaz

Craig Peer said:


> Does that app work well ? it's only $ 5.00 !


So far.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> This all sounds like an unnecessary amount of routing/re-routing if one's processor doesn't manipulate the video signal (other than, possibly, when the GUI briefly is on-screen) until the day that PIP/POP is realized and found to be of significant value in ordinary operation. My AVR is located behind a solid door, so I'm not able to view its display. * I use the GUI almost every time that I play a Blu-Ray (1080p/UHD) to make sure that I've selected the proper DSP (Dolby vs DTS processing) to mesh with whatever the source material requires. Additionally, depending on the source, there can be a mismatch with audio sync and I find it far more optimal to manage lip sync via the AVR, rather than attempting to accomplish it via the Lumagen.* The GUI also comes in handy in other, less frequent, situations.
> 
> I guess my final suggestion on the subject would be: "don't knock it if you haven't tried it".....


I almost never have to choose the audio codec on a disc - except The Matrix. And lip sync should be a one and done when calibrated . Kris got that dialed right in. As I've said before, I had the occasional annoying audio dropout. The " unnecessary re-routing " fixed that entirely. YMMV.


----------



## bobof

Just to be clear I'm not advocating one way or another, I was just offering up the virtual inputs as a way of achieving discrete settings per input.

In a similar vein; for anyone who wants to run without sources going via the AVR first, and wants a volume overlay; the Lumagen supports generating its own 2 line video overlay. If you have some control capability in your system you can do something simple that watches for change in volume level (or any other thing you want to monitor) on the AVR and then displays that via the Radiance overlay capability. 

Currently my system is Radiance first (except when I use the built in media player of the AVR, so I have it connected to an input of the Radiance); I plan to add the volume overlay through the Lumagen for my NAD shortly. I'll upload the Python script once I've done it.

For what it is worth; I've used both ways in the past as there was a time (since fixed) where the Lumagen HDMI input had audio issues sometimes with some AppleTV content. I think both configs have merit, and in an ideal purists world all sources would have dual outputs allowing audio to only feed the AVR and video to only travel via the Radiance.


----------



## Mark Burton

When I had a Marantz 8805 I always used the processor for video switching. The marantz has a rock solid HDMI so I never had any issues this way, plus you get the benefit of having around 8 inputs.

When I had an Arcam and now trinnov, the hdmi isn’t stable enough, so I needed to let the lumagen do the switching.

I would recommend letting the 8805 do the switching as the OSD on it can be very helpful, I don’t miss it with my trinnov as it never had one anyway, it has a very good web interface instead.


----------



## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> I almost never have to choose the audio codec on a disc - except The Matrix. And lip sync should be a one and done when calibrated . Kris got that dialed right in. As I've said before, I had the occasional annoying audio dropout. The " unnecessary re-routing " fixed that entirely. YMMV.


You're lucky! After the Matrix trilogy UHD release was when Warner finally defaulted their audio track to lossless. So over ten years of Warner discs a great proportion defaulted to lossy.


----------



## EVH78

tigerhonaker said:


> Guys,
> 
> Is this what your actually saying to this UN-Tech Savvy soon to be Lumagen Pro 4242 "Dumb-Ass".
> 
> If the Lumagen is not hooked up after the Marantz AV8805 I will *Not* have any of the *On-Screen-Information* I now see ???
> That's either a Yes or No don't make this complicated guys.


FWIW:
I recently installed my old 9 Ghz Hdmi output card so I have now two full A/V capable outputs. Running one of these into my AV receiver and one to my basement. I have OSD on my projector and my OLED is connected. Works like a charme!


----------



## blake

garyolearysteele said:


> Some games seem a lot better than others. Before i put the Lumagen in i found some games like The Last of Us 2 on PS4 looked noticeably better than SDR. Some have a more detailed initial setup and work well. There are some others, like Red Dead Redemption 2 which isnt actually HDR at all but 8-bit SDR in a 10-bit HDR container to tick the box for that feature. I need to do more testing and see if i can figure out how to set them up initially, what DTM settings work well etc, from what i've seen i'm not sure its going to be the same as it is for movies/TV. Also of note was the PS4 Pro sent a MaxCLL value of 0 to the Lumagen, probably a candidate for the new setting released in the recent firmware.


Does enabling DTM in Game Mode add latency ? How many ms ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

Mark Burton said:


> When I had a Marantz 8805 I always used the processor for video switching. The marantz has a rock solid HDMI so I never had any issues this way, plus you get the benefit of having around 8 inputs.
> 
> When I had an Arcam and now trinnov, the hdmi isn’t stable enough, so I needed to let the lumagen do the switching.
> 
> I would recommend letting the 8805 do the switching as the OSD on it can be very helpful, I don’t miss it with my trinnov as it never had one anyway, it has a very good web interface instead.


Trinnov hdmi isn’t stable ? Altitude 16 or 32 ? 
Surprisingly ! Can you elaborate on what issues you had


----------



## thrang

Despite all the substantial improvements in DTM made by Patrick and Jim (and they ARE significant) I still see way too many APL fluctuations during many movies - just watched The Big Lebowski on Kaleidescape, and there were dozens of moments where cutting back and forth in the same scene showed obvious apl changes (like conversations in the bowling alley), higher/lower/higher on the same composition. Other movies recently as well... Prisoners, 1917...

I'm no programmer, but It almost feels like there needs to be a paradigm shift in how this is done. And/or perhaps new HW that allows them to do more. I'd be open to an upgrade. The fluctuations take me out of the movie, so to me, it's very important.

I also still experience rare audio drops from Kaleidescape > Radiance > Trinnov - once every movie or two.... I dont have this if I connect sources direct to the Trinnov and then send video out to the Radiance. And yes, I've tried $1.25M worth of HDMI cables....


----------



## dgkula

tigerhonaker said:


> *Lumagen owners,*
> 
> In reading about the Lumagen Pro Model 4242.
> I saw in one of the reviews that it said something like,
> You can install the Lumagen and turn it on without calibrating anything as it has a default auto engaged out of the box.
> Guys, before you go off the deep-end I already know the above sentence is not exact it's all I can recall in general to ask the question on here.
> 
> Is that correct that if I have my A/V tech do the install for me until Chad B comes to do the actual custom calibrating.
> I or the tech can simply turn it on and it will perform right out of the box without us having to do anything at all regarding calibrating it ???
> 
> Please-please guys keep your replies simple and yes I know I can E-Mail Jim P. and ask him but I thought just maybe a few of you actual owner's might help me.
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


I installed my Lumagen and only changed 3 settings for DTM and it works great. I dont know if I will have a calibration done as the picture looks great as-is. Been using it for a year like this. So not completely plug and play zero config but three settings is all it takes.


----------



## fatherom

thrang said:


> Despite all the substantial improvements in DTM made by Patrick and Jim (and they ARE significant) I still see way too many APL fluctuations during many movies - just watched The Big Lebowski on Kaleidescape, and there were dozens of moments where cutting back and forth in the same scene showed obvious apl changes (like conversations in the bowling alley), higher/lower/higher on the same composition. Other movies recently as well... Prisoners, 1917...
> 
> I'm no programmer, but It almost feels like there needs to be a paradigm shift in how this is done. And/or perhaps new HW that allows them to do more. I'd be open to an upgrade. The fluctuations take me out of the movie, so to me, it's very important.
> 
> I also still experience rare audio drops from Kaleidescape > Radiance > Trinnov - once every movie or two.... I dont have this if I connect sources direct to the Trinnov and then send video out to the Radiance. And yes, I've tried $1.25M worth of HDMI cables....


Did you pass your fluctuation observations along to Lumagen support? If not, I ask that you please do...only so they get more "metadata" about this, and maybe they can address it.

Thanks


----------



## thrang

fatherom said:


> Did you pass your fluctuation observations along to Lumagen support? If not, I ask that you please do...only so they get more "metadata" about this, and maybe they can address it.
> 
> Thanks


I have in the past several times, but it's like chasing your tail after while... I am also curious what they do on a case by case basis where a "fix" for a new report doesn't "break" a fix for an older report....Its obviously is not title based, they have no idea what the title is - so it is incident based. (how does an algorithm manage a growing number of fluctuation instances without running into itself?). I'm not questioning that it's not possible, but there are so many "similar" incidents during similar scene two-shots, I'm not sure how many more examples even matter (and does fixing, for example, the bowling alley conversation in TBL "break" the fix where Robert Downey is talking to his father in Endgame?)


----------



## Karl Maga

blake said:


> Does enabling DTM in Game Mode add latency ? How many ms ?


Post #7,719  by Jim Peterson @jrp back in May
"We are doing internal testing of an update that includes a "Game Mode" that significantly reduces the delay through the Radiance Pro when enabled.

With Genlock on, the Game Mode input frame start to output frame start delay should be approximately 1/8 of a frame (roughly 2 mS at 60 Hertz) if the input and output are both 16:9 and not using the "Output Shrink" feature. It should be about 1/4 of a frame delay (roughly 4 mS at 60 Hertz) if output "top shrink" is the typical 12.17% used for a 2.35 screen without an anamorphic lens. It should be about 3/8 of a frame (roughly 6 mS at 60 Hertz) if Output Shrink is 24.34% at the top of the screen (2.35 screen, no lens, all the the blanked pixels above the screen).
..."

He has a little more to say about Game Mode in that comment, it would be worth going back to read it.


----------



## fatherom

thrang said:


> I have in the past several times, but it's like chasing your tail after while... I am also curious what they do on a case by case basis where a "fix" for a new report doesn't "break" a fix for an older report....Its obviously is not title based, they have no idea what the title is - so it is incident based. (how does an algorithm manage a growing number of fluctuation instances without running into itself?). I'm not questioning that it's not possible, but there are so many "similar" incidents during similar scene two-shots, I'm not sure how many more examples even matter (and does fixing, for example, the bowling alley conversation in TBL "break" the fix where Robert Downey is talking to his father in Endgame?)


You read my mind. 

I am a software engineer actually, and I know how "fragile" algorithms (especially those with a lot of tweakable "knobs") can be. 

I would implore you to pass the scenes you've noticed along to lumagen. Without the info, without saying something, it won't ever be addressed. 

Please, everyone, don't take what I'm saying as a knock against lumagen. They have done amazing things with dtm and I don't envy their task of trying to make it as good as possible. I do think, though, that tugging on one thread of the tapestry (to fix a particular issue) may be unraveling threads elsewhere and causing side effects. In this case, a simpler approach that doesn't try to handle every troublesome scene may be a cleaner approach. 

I plan to update to the new fw when it comes out and try my problem scenes again. If they're still an issue, I'll let lumagen support know. Our voice is the only way to convey these issues. And lumagen support is so outstanding and responsive, I trust that the problems will be solved eventually. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

I should add something for context. 10 years ago, I noticed the Oppo 83 was causing clicks between SACD tracks. I kept banging the drum to Oppo, getting support right here on AVSforum, and eventually got the problem resolved.

Some interpreted my constant posts and (what they saw as) "griping" as hating on the Oppo. Quite the opposite...it was only because I loved the thing to pieces, and wanted it to be perfect, that I cared so much and fought so long and hard.

Same thing here...please, anyone, if you're noticing brightness shifts that seem out of place (or anything related to DTM), please pass it along to Lumagen support directly.

Thanks again, all, for listening,


----------



## tigerhonaker

Those that have replied to my two (2) recent posts on the Lumagen 4242 above.
My decision is going to be asking Chad B when he comes if in his opinion ???
Can I have the Marantz AV8805 so the On-Screen information is just like it is now for myself and Cathy ???
Are you aware of any issues doing that with my Marantz Model ???
It really to me personally comes down to keeping things as "Simple" as possible for "Daily" use guys.

*Decision made,*
*You know I have now made my decision the hook-up/install is going to be to where I can use the Marantz as it is right now.*
_*I Hate Complicated Crap so it's silly for me to bother you guys and asking what you think on using or not using the Marantz** I "**Apologize**"*._
*My Home Theater is to me and my wife a place to Enjoy ourselves and NOT complicate things what the Hell was I previously thinking/considering.  *

I still at this point don't know if I can have my Tech do the install before Chad comes.
I was hoping a few of you Lumagen-*Owner's* would give me a simple Yes or No but so far I don't think I have seen that from anyone.
*Keep in mind my Tech would ONLY be installing the Lumagen and Not-Doing-ANY-Calibrating*..............

Perhaps if I state my reason/reasons why I'm trying to go ahead and get it installed before Chad comes at the end of this month.
It is a nightmare guys to try to get my Tech and Chad here at the exact same-time so they could put their heads together on the install.
That's in-fact almost impossible ............
But, if what I read in the review that said they simply took it out of the box.
Turned it on and did No-Calibrating at all and the picture looked great.
Then they did or had done the Custom-Calibrating to see just how different those results were to just taking it out of the box and using it.
You guys are coming across to me that it seems you cannot do that if I'm really-really understanding what your posting ???

It would be great and so helpful if one or more of you would stay right on Topic for what I need to know, please.

Terry


----------



## Craig Peer

thrang said:


> Despite all the substantial improvements in DTM made by Patrick and Jim (and they ARE significant) I still see way too many APL fluctuations during many movies - just watched The Big Lebowski on Kaleidescape, and there were dozens of moments where cutting back and forth in the same scene showed obvious apl changes (like conversations in the bowling alley), higher/lower/higher on the same composition. Other movies recently as well... Prisoners, *1917.*..
> 
> I'm no programmer, but It almost feels like there needs to be a paradigm shift in how this is done. And/or perhaps new HW that allows them to do more. I'd be open to an upgrade. The fluctuations take me out of the movie, so to me, it's very important.
> 
> I also still experience rare audio drops from Kaleidescape > Radiance > Trinnov - once every movie or two.... I dont have this if I connect sources direct to the Trinnov and then send video out to the Radiance. And yes, I've tried $1.25M worth of HDMI cables....



I don't recall seeing any anomalies in " 1917 ", and I've watched it probably 6 or 7 times. But, I'm watching the 4K Blu-ray disc. Strange about the audio dropouts. In your case I'd connect it whichever way eliminated it.


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Despite all the substantial improvements in DTM made by Patrick and Jim (and they ARE significant) I still see way too many APL fluctuations during many movies - just watched The Big Lebowski on Kaleidescape, and there were dozens of moments where cutting back and forth in the same scene showed obvious apl changes (like conversations in the bowling alley), higher/lower/higher on the same composition. Other movies recently as well... Prisoners, 1917...
> 
> I'm no programmer, but It almost feels like there needs to be a paradigm shift in how this is done. And/or perhaps new HW that allows them to do more. I'd be open to an upgrade. The fluctuations take me out of the movie, so to me, it's very important.
> 
> I also still experience rare audio drops from Kaleidescape > Radiance > Trinnov - once every movie or two.... I dont have this if I connect sources direct to the Trinnov and then send video out to the Radiance. And yes, I've tried $1.25M worth of HDMI cables....


1917 has other issues that K is looking at, so it may be that you are seeing that and thinking it is the Radiance. Prisoners is not an HDR title? Let me know what scene in Big Lebowski, I haven’t watched that one.

I think in the last month I’ve probably seen maybe once or twice in all my viewing that a change happened from DTM that looked off. It’s a dynamic system and can never be perfect. But to call it rare would be overstating in my experience. But please report it if you see it!


----------



## docrog

I believe that @jrp has previously indicated that DTM was to be upgraded in order to better evaluate & address widely different APL within a single frame. Has that firmware already been issued? If not, would it be reasonable to expect that some of the recently mentioned titles might be more stable once that firmware is out of beta?


----------



## 5mark

EVH78 said:


> FWIW:
> I recently installed my old 9 Ghz Hdmi output card so I have now two full A/V capable outputs. Running one of these into my AV receiver and one to my basement. I have OSD on my projector and my OLED is connected. Works like a charme!


I have the same configuration, one output to the AVR and one output to a flat panel setup in the next room. Then both outputs on the AVR feed a dual projector setup. Rock solid operation except for some occasional brief audio dropouts (maybe one every third movie).


----------



## jazzrock

tigerhonaker said:


> Those that have replied to my two (2) recent posts on the Lumagen 4242 above.
> My decision is going to be asking Chad B when he comes if in his opinion ???
> Can I have the Marantz AV8805 so the On-Screen information is just like it is now for myself and Cathy ???
> Are you aware of any issues doing that with my Marantz Model ???
> It really to me personally comes down to keeping things as "Simple" as possible for "Daily" use guys.
> 
> *Decision made,*
> *You know I have now made my decision the hook-up/install is going to be to where I can use the Marantz as it is right now.*
> _*I Hate Complicated Crap so it's silly for me to bother you guys and asking what you think on using or not using the Marantz** I "**Apologize**"*._
> *My Home Theater is to me and my wife a place to Enjoy ourselves and NOT complicate things what the Hell was I previously thinking/considering.  *
> 
> I still at this point don't know if I can have my Tech do the install before Chad comes.
> I was hoping a few of you Lumagen-*Owner's* would give me a simple Yes or No but so far I don't think I have seen that from anyone.
> *Keep in mind my Tech would ONLY be installing the Lumagen and Not-Doing-ANY-Calibrating*..............
> 
> Perhaps if I state my reason/reasons why I'm trying to go ahead and get it installed before Chad comes at the end of this month.
> It is a nightmare guys to try to get my Tech and Chad here at the exact same-time so they could put their heads together on the install.
> That's in-fact almost impossible ............
> But, if what I read in the review that said they simply took it out of the box.
> Turned it on and did No-Calibrating at all and the picture looked great.
> Then they did or had done the Custom-Calibrating to see just how different those results were to just taking it out of the box and using it.
> You guys are coming across to me that it seems you cannot do that if I'm really-really understanding what your posting ???
> 
> It would be great and so helpful if one or more of you would stay right on Topic for what I need to know, please.
> 
> Terry


If it were me, i would have the Lumagen “installed” into your rack or wherever it’s resting place will be. But if you do not want to get into the Lumagen setup at all just don’t put it into use your calibrater arrives. If you know for certaintly you will put it before or after you could also run tge necessary hdmi cables and run the power cord. It would then be ready to make final connections then doncalibration.


----------



## Mike Garrett

jazzrock said:


> If it were me, i would have the Lumagen “installed” into your rack or wherever it’s resting place will be. But if you do not want to get into the Lumagen setup at all just don’t put it into use your calibrater arrives. If you know for certaintly you will put it before or after you could also run tge necessary hdmi cables and run the power cord. It would then be ready to make final connections then doncalibration.


Yep, that is what I suggested earlier.


----------



## Karl Maga

tigerhonaker said:


> Those that have replied to my two (2) recent posts on the Lumagen 4242 above.
> My decision is going to be asking Chad B when he comes if in his opinion ???
> Can I have the Marantz AV8805 so the On-Screen information is just like it is now for myself and Cathy ???
> Are you aware of any issues doing that with my Marantz Model ???
> It really to me personally comes down to keeping things as "Simple" as possible for "Daily" use guys.
> 
> *Decision made,*
> *You know I have now made my decision the hook-up/install is going to be to where I can use the Marantz as it is right now.*
> _*I Hate Complicated Crap so it's silly for me to bother you guys and asking what you think on using or not using the Marantz** I "**Apologize**"*._
> *My Home Theater is to me and my wife a place to Enjoy ourselves and NOT complicate things what the Hell was I previously thinking/considering. *
> 
> I still at this point don't know if I can have my Tech do the install before Chad comes.
> I was hoping a few of you Lumagen-*Owner's* would give me a simple Yes or No but so far I don't think I have seen that from anyone.
> *Keep in mind my Tech would ONLY be installing the Lumagen and Not-Doing-ANY-Calibrating*..............
> 
> Perhaps if I state my reason/reasons why I'm trying to go ahead and get it installed before Chad comes at the end of this month.
> It is a nightmare guys to try to get my Tech and Chad here at the exact same-time so they could put their heads together on the install.
> That's in-fact almost impossible ............
> But, if what I read in the review that said they simply took it out of the box.
> Turned it on and did No-Calibrating at all and the picture looked great.
> Then they did or had done the Custom-Calibrating to see just how different those results were to just taking it out of the box and using it.
> You guys are coming across to me that it seems you cannot do that if I'm really-really understanding what your posting ???
> 
> It would be great and so helpful if one or more of you would stay right on Topic for what I need to know, please.
> 
> Terry


Terry, my two cents that I offer to you:

No reason not to have the Radiance Pro in your system before Chad comes out. 

As to your preferred connection (Marantz doing the HDMI switching), I used mine that way for months, and didn't notice any problems. As @bobof has pointed out - virtual inputs allow for unique settings per source, so that concern is primarily resolved for using the Marantz as the switcher.

If you are not getting any useful advice from whomever is selling you the Radiance Pro, you might consider buying from a dealer who can do so. I bought from @Kris Deering, but there are also others who can advise you. Still, there can be good reasons to buy from whomever you have already chosen, there are many reasons to be loyal to a dealer.


----------



## thrang

Kris Deering said:


> 1917 has other issues that K is looking at, so it may be that you are seeing that and thinking it is the Radiance. Prisoners is not an HDR title? Let me know what scene in Big Lebowski, I haven’t watched that one.
> 
> I think in the last month I’ve probably seen maybe once or twice in all my viewing that a change happened from DTM that looked off. It’s a dynamic system and can never be perfect. But to call it rare would be overstating in my experience. But please report it if you see it!


Sorry - correct it was not Prisoners (doofus look enabled) we watched a few movies in a row about a month ago, need to re-think what title it was...

But its more than rare for me usually more than once in a good percentage of titles. I just may be sensitive to it...


----------



## thrang

docrog said:


> I believe that @jrp has previously indicated that DTM was to be upgraded in order to better evaluate & address widely different APL within a single frame. Has that firmware already been issued? If not, would it be reasonable to expect that some of the recently mentioned titles might be more stable once that firmware is out of beta?


Interesting question - how long ago do you recall that conversation? They made several tweaks around the 0804 timeframe, which is over a month ago...

Kris - are you aware?

Thanks


----------



## tigerhonaker

Karl Maga said:


> Terry, my two cents that I offer to you:
> 
> No reason not to have the Radiance Pro in your system before Chad comes out.
> 
> As to your preferred connection (Marantz doing the HDMI switching), I used mine that way for months, and didn't notice any problems. As @bobof has pointed out - virtual inputs allow for unique settings per source, so that concern is primarily resolved for using the Marantz as the switcher.
> 
> If you are not getting any useful advice from whomever is selling you the Radiance Pro, you might consider buying from a dealer who can do so.
> I bought from @Kris Deering, but there are also others who can advise you.
> 
> *Still, there can be good reasons to buy from whomever you have already chosen, there are many reasons to be loyal to a dealer.*


Karl,

Yes, I do know Kris D. and Yes I would have gone through him but .............
I have been in constant discussions with Craig P for probably over a year maybe two about Lumagen.
That's PM's, E-Mails and phone conversations.
He also has a similar sized 16x9 screen as I do and the JVC RS4500 and he has used both Chad & Kris for calibrating.
As we all know one would instantly get their *Hands-Slapped *if I got into Real-World-Pricing/Cost.
That's ^^^ probably enough said on that subject ^^^
I have already reached-out to Jim Peterson as well as Chad B. today on using or not using the Marantz AV8805.
Unless one or both come back and Point-Blank tell me not to use it I am going to use it.
I want "Simple" not some doggone overly Complicated crap in my HT for either myself and especially not my wife Cathy to have to deal with.

Heck I wouldn't even be purchasing the Lumagen if Cathy hadn't come to me and said I got the "Perfect" early  Gift for you.

So, I am going to take her into consideration when it comes to the HT as I should make sure she can operate it without me.
I am 75 years-old now guys so ...............
It seems to me it's me being Selfish not to take her into consideration when it comes to using the HT.

Terry


----------



## Mike Garrett

That is one reason why I have my theater set up like I do. With Lumagen doing auto aspect control, The remote has two buttons to get you started. Watch a movie (Oppo) and watch Roku (streaming). HT is actually simpler to use than my smart TV.


----------



## docrog

thrang said:


> Interesting question - how long ago do you recall that conversation? They made several tweaks around the 0804 timeframe, which is over a month ago...
> 
> Kris - are you aware?
> 
> Thanks


I'm also very much hoping that either @jrp or @Kris Deering can respond to my recent post.


----------



## EVH78

5mark said:


> I have the same configuration, one output to the AVR and one output to a flat panel setup in the next room. Then both outputs on the AVR feed a dual projector setup. Rock solid operation except for some occasional brief audio dropouts (maybe one every third movie).


I am running two fiber HDMI cables of which one is 150 feet and zero audio dropouts. Are you playing from disc / streaming or server when dropouts occur?


----------



## sor

What? Terry is finally getting a Lumagen after all of the posts? I almost can’t believe it.


----------



## tigerhonaker

sor said:


> What? Terry is finally getting a Lumagen after all of the posts? I almost can’t believe it.


*sor,

*


----------



## Craig Peer

GerryWaz said:


> At first, I thought I'd miss the OSD from the Marantz, but after many months without it, I find I really don't miss it at all. Of course, YMMV.
> 
> If I ever do need to "see" something from the AV8805 (and that's rare),* I have an old iPad in my viewing room and it runs the old DeRemote app (a third-party app for controlling a Denon or Marantz unit). * Even though the DeRemote app is now five years old, and might benefit from a little updating, it works pretty good showing me most of the common settings I need to see and change. (Marantz has their own remote control app but it's pretty limited, IMVHO.)


I just downloaded this and tested it. For $4.99 it's perfectly functional for my needs and seems to work great. Thanks!


----------



## docrog

Question to @jrp regarding upcoming firmware: I believe that you've indicated that, in addition to sharpening, there is also improvement in upscaling. Would you now recommend sending SD DVD source material natively to the Radiance Pro or have the player output to Lumagen at 1080p? This question arises because there have previously been comments regarding less than hoped for upscaling results of 480i/p material in this generation of Lumagen renderers when compared with previous products.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> There is a setting that makes the Lumagen automatically send out status updates when something changes, over a serial port (could be either RS232 or USB, usually RS232 for control systems). The V2 status report format is the latest and has the most complete information, I'd recommend using that personally. An installer / programmer basically writes a parser to grab the important info out of the status reports, and then do appropriate actions in the system (move masks, change display modes, etc). You can see it reports HDR vs SDR (field F below) and crucially this is the Input range, not the output range (which might well be SDR if you're outputting SDR2020 or SDRP3 like I do). So it works perfectly to switch the display into a correct mode based on the content type.
> 
> You probably don't need to go to the effort of only sending control strings to the projector if it is on (I don't bother checking for that). Status reports are only sent out if the Lumagen is in on mode, and I tend to have my Lumagen off when the projector is off. But having said that if it's not a ton of extra work it's never a bad idea to program defensively.
> 
> The detail on the status update format is from here; this is the doc your installer needs to reference:
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_101119.pdf
> MENU→Other→I/O Setup→RS-232 Setup→Report mode changes
> This results in messages appearing at the serial port if the input format changes, or aspect ratio, or other info. The details of the report from the Lumagen are:
> 
> 
> There are a couple of gotchas to watch out for around the use of the serial port:
> 
> From what I can tell internally the Lumagen has a single logical serial controller hooked up to both the USB and RS232 ports, and it switches which is active based on which port was the last to receive a message (controller -> Lumagen). So if you also use USB for calibration duties on the Lumagen, you'll find the reports on the RS232 serial port stop until you send a message on the RS232 port (or hard power cycle). As I do use both the RS232 port for control and the USB port for calibration duties I made my script for control periodically send out a speculative message on the RS232 to make sure it is always active.
> When trying to make a script work it might be tempting to fiddle with the serial port settings (which again, are shared between the RS232 and USB port). Bear in mind that calibration software often expects the serial / USB port to be set up a particular way, and if you make your control script use different serial port settings to your calibration software then you will have to change the serial port settings back and forth every time you calibrate, which is a proper ball-ache. So best to make sure your script / control system doesn't deviate from the standard serial port settings unless you have a very compelling reason to do so.


This is amazing! I'm finally getting a control4 integrator to try this! 
Question on turning things on in what order. I"ve had a few times when the screen is green and fuzzy with a picture behind it, and tohers where the resolution is off when turning it on. 

What order should things be turned on? Should the lumagen be turned "off " to standby every time I'm done watching? or just leave i ton?

Do I turn on the projector first? then receiver, then nvidia shield, then lumagen? should there be a pause somewhere? i want to make sure there's no handshake issues.

thanks!


----------



## gadgetfreaky

mindedc said:


> Yes, my driver is full two way. If you change the input on the remote it tells C4 the input has changed and any associated programming would change. It interprets all of the following fields and exposes them as variables. You can use the "on variable changed" feature to trigger programming based on any of the fields below. I also have all of the commands exposed so you can change memories, styles, or whatever based on programming. It also supports triggering mute message on/off and volume programatically if you have two displays in different rooms. I also have the provisions to write arbitrary messages to the display (I.E. Doorbell rang, security alarm went off etc...) but I haven't decided how to implement that on the C4 side yet (I.E. have say 5 pre-defined messages or have a variable you can update and it writes to the display).
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Variable               Value
> -------------------    -------------------
> OUTPUT_ADJUSTED_ASPECT    178
> INPUT_3D_MODE      2D Mode
> NLS                Normal
> MEM                A
> INPUT_ASPECT       235
> INPUT_STATUS       Active Video
> OUTPUT_CMS_NUMBER    1
> INPUT_CONFIG_NUMBE    0
> OUTPUT_MODE        P
> INPUT_LOGICAL      1
> INPUT_RESOLUTION    2160
> INPUT_DYNAMIC_RANGE    HDR
> OUTPUT_ASPECT      240
> INPUT_MODE         p
> INPUT_PHYSICAL     1
> OUTPUT_STATUS      000e
> OUTPUT_RESOLUTION    2160
> OUTPUT_STYLE_NUMBER    0
> INPUT_RATE         23
> OUTPUT_RATE        23
> OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE    2D
> OUTPUT_3D_MODE     REC2020
> 
> If there is interest in buying the driver I can certainly be motivated to publish and support it.


did you ever publish this to sell?


----------



## bobof

For anyone interested, here is a very quick and dirty Python example that shows volume level and codec via the Lumagen OSD, grabbed from my NAD AVR over IP. This is using the nad_receiver library, which I've extended quickly to be able to grab the codec detail out of the AVR. If it is useful to anyone let me know and I'll upload it.

It basically watches for any change in reported volume level by the AVR`, and if detected it displays the info on screen for 2 seconds. It works really well and is very responsive to the remote control.

Gratuitous screenshot:










Code:


import time
import serial
import nad_receiver
from nad_receiver.nad_transport import TelnetTransport


class avr(nad_receiver.NADReceiver):
    """NAD Receiver"""
    def __init__(self) -> None:
        self.transport = TelnetTransport("192.168.10.173",23,10)

receiver=avr()
volume = receiver.main_volume('?')
ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600,timeout=86400 )  # open serial port

while True:
        time.sleep(0.1)
        
        readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
        while readVolume == None:
                readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
        if volume != readVolume:
                volume = readVolume
                readCodec = None
                while readCodec == None:
                        readCodec = receiver.main_audiocodec('?')
                osdStr='ZT2'+str(volume)+' '+readCodec+'\n'
                ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> This is amazing! I'm finally getting a control4 integrator to try this!
> Question on turning things on in what order. I"ve had a few times when the screen is green and fuzzy with a picture behind it, and tohers where the resolution is off when turning it on.
> 
> What order should things be turned on? Should the lumagen be turned "off " to standby every time I'm done watching? or just leave i ton?
> 
> Do I turn on the projector first? then receiver, then nvidia shield, then lumagen? should there be a pause somewhere? i want to make sure there's no handshake issues.
> 
> thanks!


I turn stuff on in reverse order from the display. I'm not going to say it is the best option, just that it works reasonably well for me. Your integrator should be able to advise best strategy, they are programming it and supporting it. I think most folk with HDMI get the ocassional hiccup, but for the most part works great. I certainly don't have any green screens, flashes, etc.

So in my case:
Display
AVR
Lumagen
Source

My AppleTV I reboot everytime I switch to it as it is fussy about HDCP. 

Lumagen goes into standby mode every time I shut down the system.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Mark Burton said:


> When I had a Marantz 8805 I always used the processor for video switching. The marantz has a rock solid HDMI so I never had any issues this way, plus you get the benefit of having around 8 inputs.
> 
> When I had an Arcam and now trinnov, the hdmi isn’t stable enough, so I needed to let the lumagen do the switching.
> 
> I would recommend letting the 8805 do the switching as the OSD on it can be very helpful, I don’t miss it with my trinnov as it never had one anyway, it has a very good web interface instead.


I'm literally reprogramming my control4 now. I have a Arcam 390 receiver, BenQ LK990 projector and the lumagen 4242. I use mostly the Nvidia Shield Pro, but also have appletv, Oppo, and a facebook portal and Nintendo switch. 

I believe at one point someone convinced me I should run hdmi audio seperately but i do miss the volume!

I also now am short 1 input and have to manually plug and unplug the portal and switch, which obviously isn't ideal.

My biggest concern is HDMI handshake issues. But if you are saying I should be fine with no picture degradation going thru the receiver and letting it do the switching I'd much rather do that as I can confirm surround sound, atmos , volume etc.

So what power on order would you do to make sure hdmi shakes are good?


----------



## BondDonBond

tigerhonaker said:


> Karl,
> 
> Yes, I do know Kris D. and Yes I would have gone through him but .............
> I have been in constant discussions with Craig P for probably over a year maybe two about Lumagen.
> That's PM's, E-Mails and phone conversations.
> He also has a similar sized 16x9 screen as I do and the JVC RS4500 and he has used both Chad & Kris for calibrating.
> As we all know one would instantly get their *Hands-Slapped *if I got into Real-World-Pricing/Cost.
> That's ^^^ probably enough said on that subject ^^^
> I have already reached-out to Jim Peterson as well as Chad B. today on using or not using the Marantz AV8805.
> Unless one or both come back and Point-Blank tell me not to use it I am going to use it.
> I want "Simple" not some doggone overly Complicated crap in my HT for either myself and especially not my wife Cathy to have to deal with.
> 
> Heck I wouldn't even be purchasing the Lumagen if Cathy hadn't come to me and said I got the "Perfect" early  Gift for you.
> 
> So, I am going to take her into consideration when it comes to the HT as I should make sure she can operate it without me.
> I am 75 years-old now guys so ...............
> It seems to me it's me being Selfish not to take her into consideration when it comes to using the HT.
> 
> Terry


You will love it and I love mine. Set it and forget it. I however have the lumagen switch but the Marantz will do fine.


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> I have already reached-out to Jim Peterson as well as Chad B. today on using or not using the Marantz AV8805.
> Unless one or both come back and Point-Blank tell me not to use it I am going to use it.
> I want "Simple" not some doggone overly Complicated crap in my HT for either myself and especially not my wife Cathy to have to deal with.


(a) Jim Peterson won't *tell you* to do it one way or the other but he will tell you that using the Lumagen as your switcher is his "preferred" method. But either way will work fine.

(b) If you want to REALLY *simplify* the operation of your theater for your wife, find a good integrator who has some excellent programmers and quit using all of those remotes. That will be a *much less complicated* way to operate your ever growing more complicated theater. I have used Crestron and now Control 4 (there are other options as well) and it controls everything . It can (and should) replace every remote in your theater (I have 9 remotes: for the Zappiti, Nvidia Shield, Masking System, AppleTV, Trinnov, Lumagen, Oppo, RS4500 The only external remote I ever touch is the Lumagen and that is only when I want to show someone the difference between "standard" and DTM enabled. But other than that, my C4 remote controls EVERYTHING in our theater - and most of the rest of the house as well (garage door, front door locks, alarm, lights dimmers, lighting scenes, etc). And if picking up a single remote is not simple enough, get an Amazon Alexa (that talks to the Control 4 system) and you can use voice commands to control *everything* in your theater. Simple. Simple. Simple.


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> (a) Jim Peterson won't *tell you* to do it one way or the other but he will tell you that using the Lumagen as your switcher is his "preferred" method. But either way will work fine.
> 
> (b) If you want to REALLY *simplify* the operation of your theater for your wife, find a good integrator who has some excellent programmers and quit using all of those remotes. That will be a *much less complicated* way to operate your ever growing more complicated theater. I have used Crestron and now Control 4 (there are other options as well) and it controls everything . It can (and should) replace every remote in your theater (I have 9 remotes: for the Zappiti, Nvidia Shield, Masking System, AppleTV, Trinnov, Lumagen, Oppo, RS4500 The only external remote I ever touch is the Lumagen and that is only when I want to show someone the difference between "standard" and DTM enabled. But other than that, my C4 remote controls EVERYTHING in our theater - and most of the rest of the house as well (garage door, front door locks, alarm, lights dimmers, lighting scenes, etc). And if picking up a single remote is not simple enough, get an Amazon Alexa (that talks to the Control 4 system) and you can use voice commands to control *everything* in your theater. Simple. Simple. Simple.


My C4 integrator says it's not possible to combine the MemA-MemD settings on the same UI as the Oppo controls using the Neeo remote. Is that true or do I need to find someone else?


----------



## bjorg

docrog said:


> Question to @jrp regarding upcoming firmware: I believe that you've indicated that, in addition to sharpening, there is also improvement in upscaling. Would you now recommend sending SD DVD source material natively to the Radiance Pro or have the player output to Lumagen at 1080p? This question arises because there have previously been comments regarding less than hoped for upscaling results of 480i/p material in this generation of Lumagen renderers when compared with previous products.


I don't know about the previous generation, but I now watch all 480i material through the Radiance Pro as the de-interlacing, Darbee, and upscaling produces the best quality output I've ever seen. If there is better, I sure would love to hear about it!


----------



## MOberhardt

Anyone have any feedback on Lumagen and 3d? I know it can't upscale or HDR it, but can it do anything sharpening, cleaning up, detail recovery? Eg take a movie like Priest 3d. The 3d was deviled on this. When I got my 4k projector, I watched it and was actually impressed. I figure so much of the hate for it was early 1080p era hardware wit horrific black handling, CCFL backlight, etc. On a 4k her era projector it was incredibly watchable. Or more mainstream, the Godzilla 3d, the dark stuff in that. Does the Lumagen help any at that end?
PS I'm not looking to be converted. I've got one en route. Just interested in what it might improve. While I'm waiting on 8t, I've been watching a lot of 3d, not so much 4k.


----------



## Peule_P

bjorg said:


> I don't know about the previous generation, but I now watch all 480i material through the Radiance Pro as the de-interlacing, Darbee, and upscaling produces the best quality output I've ever seen. If there is better, I sure would love to hear about it!


how are you feeding 480i to the Lumagen? I have a DVDO VP50Pro in the loop to go from composite (Laserdisc) to HDMI first.


----------



## Mark Burton

gadgetfreaky said:


> I'm literally reprogramming my control4 now. I have a Arcam 390 receiver, BenQ LK990 projector and the lumagen 4242. I use mostly the Nvidia Shield Pro, but also have appletv, Oppo, and a facebook portal and Nintendo switch.
> 
> I believe at one point someone convinced me I should run hdmi audio seperately but i do miss the volume!
> 
> I also now am short 1 input and have to manually plug and unplug the portal and switch, which obviously isn't ideal.
> 
> My biggest concern is HDMI handshake issues. But if you are saying I should be fine with no picture degradation going thru the receiver and letting it do the switching I'd much rather do that as I can confirm surround sound, atmos , volume etc.
> 
> So what power on order would you do to make sure hdmi shakes are good?


not with the arcam, it didn’t work for me this way with either a 550 or 860, it only worked when I used the marantz 8805.

With the Arcam I would get purple flashes at different intervals when watching something, when I moved my video direct to the lumagen it instantly stopped.


----------



## Mark Burton

audioguy said:


> (a) Jim Peterson won't *tell you* to do it one way or the other but he will tell you that using the Lumagen as your switcher is his "preferred" method. But either way will work fine.
> 
> (b) If you want to REALLY *simplify* the operation of your theater for your wife, find a good integrator who has some excellent programmers and quit using all of those remotes. That will be a *much less complicated* way to operate your ever growing more complicated theater. I have used Crestron and now Control 4 (there are other options as well) and it controls everything . It can (and should) replace every remote in your theater (I have 9 remotes: for the Zappiti, Nvidia Shield, Masking System, AppleTV, Trinnov, Lumagen, Oppo, RS4500 The only external remote I ever touch is the Lumagen and that is only when I want to show someone the difference between "standard" and DTM enabled. But other than that, my C4 remote controls EVERYTHING in our theater - and most of the rest of the house as well (garage door, front door locks, alarm, lights dimmers, lighting scenes, etc). And if picking up a single remote is not simple enough, get an Amazon Alexa (that talks to the Control 4 system) and you can use voice commands to control *everything* in your theater. Simple. Simple. Simple.


or just get a harmony with is much cheaper and works just as well.

Thats what I use, it controls everything, my lights, fan units, wifi plug adapters, AC and 7 pieces of equipment in my rack.

The only thing it won’t do is adjust the temperature on my Ac unit or switch the AC off, so I need a remote for that, but that’s the limitation of the AC rather than the remote.


----------



## Nima

Is anyone using a Panasonic Ub820 with the Lumagen's DTM? What setting do you use for the HDR TV projector type? Super high luminance? The Panasonic should not do any tone mapping at all right?

Thanks 
Nima


----------



## garyolearysteele

Nima said:


> Is anyone using a Panasonic Ub820 with the Lumagen's DTM? What setting do you use for the HDR TV projector type? Super high luminance? The Panasonic should not do any tone mapping at all right?
> 
> Thanks
> Nima


I _think_ that will be for the HDR optimizer only which you can choose to enable/disable (if its the same as the UB9000).


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> Anyone have any feedback on Lumagen and 3d? I know it can't upscale or HDR it, but *can it do anything sharpening, cleaning up, detail recovery?* Eg take a movie like Priest 3d. The 3d was deviled on this. When I got my 4k projector, I watched it and was actually impressed. I figure so much of the hate for it was early 1080p era hardware wit horrific black handling, CCFL backlight, etc. On a 4k her era projector it was incredibly watchable. Or more mainstream, the Godzilla 3d, the dark stuff in that. Does the Lumagen help any at that end?
> PS I'm not looking to be converted. I've got one en route. Just interested in what it might improve. While I'm waiting on 8t, I've been watching a lot of 3d, not so much 4k.


At the moment, no. Darbee is the only "image enhancement" currently available for 3D. There is a sharpener coming in a new release being beta'd by some at the moment - I guess it will work for 1080p3D? - maybe that will be here by the time you get yours. No specific "cleaning up" or "detail recovery" functions exist in Radiance Pro. Given 3D can't be upscaled I honestly think you're better off watching it as it is (unless you're someone who likes riding the remote and fiddling with the picture for each title).

There isn't any kind of automatic contrast enhancer outside or anything like that for "the dark stuff".

Honestly though, the best feature for me that the Lumagen brings to image quality is a proper reference calibration capability via the 1D/3DLUT and precise digital black level control, including separate 3D calibrated to reference taking into account the glasses tint etc. I think the best advice is get a proper reference 3D calibration loaded into it, and then see if you still want to "season to taste" with enhancements. Often folk have to ride the picture controls because they don't have a good neutral calibration - which means individual titles end up even further away from reference and obviously needing help.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Mark Burton said:


> not with the arcam, it didn’t work for me this way with either a 550 or 860, it only worked when I used the marantz 8805.
> 
> With the Arcam I would get purple flashes at different intervals when watching something, when I moved my video direct to the lumagen it instantly stopped.


Yeah, I remember now. Kris had set me up direct connected from lumagen to the projector . I tried going thru the arcam and it kept just randomly cutting in and out every min or so. So I guess no on screen volume . really i want to know if the atmos kicked in as sometimes it doesn't on some movies and i have to stop and restart. But I'd only know if the receiver showed it. I've kicked myself halfway thru a movie realizing it just didn't sound right, only to discover it was still in surround and not atmos.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> For anyone interested, here is a very quick and dirty Python example that shows volume level and codec via the Lumagen OSD, grabbed from my NAD AVR over IP. This is using the nad_receiver library, which I've extended quickly to be able to grab the codec detail out of the AVR. If it is useful to anyone let me know and I'll upload it.
> 
> It basically watches for any change in reported volume level by the AVR`, and if detected it displays the info on screen for 2 seconds. It works really well and is very responsive to the remote control.
> 
> Gratuitous screenshot:
> View attachment 3042602
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> import time
> import serial
> import nad_receiver
> from nad_receiver.nad_transport import TelnetTransport
> 
> 
> class avr(nad_receiver.NADReceiver):
> """NAD Receiver"""
> def __init__(self) -> None:
> self.transport = TelnetTransport("192.168.10.173",23,10)
> 
> receiver=avr()
> volume = receiver.main_volume('?')
> ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600,timeout=86400 )  # open serial port
> 
> while True:
> time.sleep(0.1)
> 
> readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
> while readVolume == None:
> readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
> if volume != readVolume:
> volume = readVolume
> readCodec = None
> while readCodec == None:
> readCodec = receiver.main_audiocodec('?')
> osdStr='ZT2'+str(volume)+' '+readCodec+'\n'
> ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))


oh this is awesome.. anyone out there want to do this for the arcam?  
So quick question, how is this connected? a bit confused on what's connected to what and how you inject the data into the lumagen as I don't recall it having ether


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Mike Garrett said:


> You do not need a high end 18G cable for this secondary cable. So when I had to upgrade my HDMI cable I just left the old one in place and used it for the secondary cable.


any suggestions on how to keep the hdmi from flashing on and off when connecting thru the receiver? I tried connecting the lumagen to the arcam 390, then arcam to the benq and the hdmi handshake was clearly having issues as the pic would cut out every 15 sec to 1 min. wondering if there's a setting I should change?

It's been so long I can't remember how it was. But I do have a HD Fury Vertex that I can use as well. I think I used to have that hooked up before @Kris Deering came and calibrated. @Kris Deering any thoughts? I do miss the volume on the screen and confirmation of what sound codec I'm in. I also have 5 devices and only 4 inputs on the Lumagen. 

Other alternative is to upgrade the remote of the Control4 to the $600 Neeo which should give me volume and hopefully sound codec confirmation? For the 5th device I can run it into the HDMI input of the oppo I think and use that as the video switcher


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> oh this is awesome.. anyone out there want to do this for the arcam?
> So quick question, how is this connected? a bit confused on what's connected to what and how you inject the data into the lumagen as I don't recall it having ether


My Raspberry Pi has a USB serial adapter on it connected to the Lumagen serial port (though you could use the USB port too I believe, but I have that connected to my PC for calibration duties). So direct connection to the Lumagen. I use IP connections to the Receiver (and also to my projector - JVC X7900 - and screen masks controller). 

This script was just an example to prove the concept. I'm going to integrate it with the rest of my control script that switches projector modes and deals with screen masking from auto-aspect.

I did have an Arcam prior to the NAD, just never got round to doing it. The lack of volume OSD never really bothered me that much, but actually having got it working nowI might well keep it. I see there are further options to set the colour and blend value of the messages, so I'm going to play with them later, as it is nice to be able to see this info but not have it jump out at you.


----------



## bobof

I got the transparency stuff set up, looks sweet. See a quick vid of it in action here:








Code:


import time
import serial
import nad_receiver
from nad_receiver.nad_transport import TelnetTransport


class avr(nad_receiver.NADReceiver):
    """NAD Receiver"""
    def __init__(self) -> None:
        self.transport = TelnetTransport("192.168.10.173",23,10)

receiver=avr()
volume = receiver.main_volume('?')
ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600,timeout=86400 )  # open serial port
#set OSD colours
osdStr='ZY4180000000\n'
ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
osdStr='ZY4181FFFFFF\n'
ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
osdStr='ZY4182000004\n'
ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
while True:
        time.sleep(0.1)
        
        readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
        while readVolume == None:
                readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
        if volume != readVolume:
                volume = readVolume
                readCodec = None
                while readCodec == None:
                        readCodec = receiver.main_audiocodec('?')
                osdStr='ZT2'+str(volume)+' '+readCodec+'\n'
                ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))


----------



## audioguy

Mark Burton said:


> or just get a harmony with is much cheaper and works just as well.
> 
> Thats what I use, it controls everything, my lights, fan units, wifi plug adapters, AC and 7 pieces of equipment in my rack.
> 
> The only thing it won’t do is adjust the temperature on my Ac unit or switch the AC off, so I need a remote for that, but that’s the limitation of the AC rather than the remote.


I did not suggest any of those kinds of control options because if Terry has said it once, he has said it 10 times. "I am not a techie" and I don't think he has any interest in learning how to program such a device. If his integrator can do the programming on such a device and get it to replace all of his remotes, then I concur!!


----------



## Nima

I measured the light output of my Epson LS 10000 on a Da Lite High Gain and got 120 nits (35Fl).Should I leave DTM to its default settings?

Also how do I see whether a 3D lut has been uploaded? I got the unit second hand and do not know whether a LUT was applied or not. 

TIA


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> I measured the light output of my Epson LS 10000 on a Da Lite High Gain and got 120 nits (35Fl).Should I leave DTM to its default settings?
> 
> Also how do I see whether a 3D lut has been uploaded? I got the unit second hand and do not know whether a LUT was applied or not.


Regardless of whether there is a 3DLUT, it's not going to be any use to you unless it is for your projector measured with your screen in your room. So just do an upgrade to latest version and then a factory reset - this is the recommended installation process.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> I got the transparency stuff set up, looks sweet. See a quick vid of it in action here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> import time
> import serial
> import nad_receiver
> from nad_receiver.nad_transport import TelnetTransport
> 
> 
> class avr(nad_receiver.NADReceiver):
> """NAD Receiver"""
> def __init__(self) -> None:
> self.transport = TelnetTransport("192.168.10.173",23,10)
> 
> receiver=avr()
> volume = receiver.main_volume('?')
> ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600,timeout=86400 )  # open serial port
> #set OSD colours
> osdStr='ZY4180000000\n'
> ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
> osdStr='ZY4181FFFFFF\n'
> ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
> osdStr='ZY4182000004\n'
> ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
> while True:
> time.sleep(0.1)
> 
> readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
> while readVolume == None:
> readVolume = receiver.main_volume('?')
> if volume != readVolume:
> volume = readVolume
> readCodec = None
> while readCodec == None:
> readCodec = receiver.main_audiocodec('?')
> osdStr='ZT2'+str(volume)+' '+readCodec+'\n'
> ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))


This looks fantastic, and is a great solution for devices without an OSD, like the Monoprice HTP-1, for example. 

Is it possible to take the code, and modify it for a different AVP / AVR that has IP Control? Looking at the code, it seems like you would just need to change the following:

Device hostname from "nad_receiver" to whatever is the hostname of the users AVP/AVR.
IP address
The codes following the IP address from 23,10 to something else, unless this is a code applicable to all AVP/AVRs?

Thanks for any insight.

Mark


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> This looks fantastic, and is a great solution for devices without an OSD, like the Monoprice HTP-1, for example.
> 
> Is it possible to take the code, and modify it for a different AVP / AVR that has IP Control? Looking at the code, it seems like you would just need to change the following:
> 
> Device hostname from "nad_receiver" to whatever is the hostname of the users AVP/AVR.
> IP address
> The codes following the IP address from 23,10 to something else, unless this is a code applicable to all AVP/AVRs?


This brief example leverages a free library for talking to the NAD AVR. Anything that says AVR or receiver is specific to NAD AVRs and just putting in another receiver IP etc is pretty doomed to fail - though I think in the past some Monoprice gear might have been NAD based, not sure if that is the case anymore? There didn't seem to be any control information on Monoprice's website.

Basically the only requirement is to find "some way" of getting the current volume level from the AVR (and any other information you want to display). You then store the current volume level, and read it back at some interval (I did 0.1s, which should match up with remote control repeat rates more or less). Compare the just read volume level with the stored volume, and if it has changed, make the Radiance display the message and store the new volume level for future comparison.

It took me about 4 hrs to work out how to make this function last night, and most of that was in trying to figure out the NAD library (which had zero documentation) and finding the undocumented code for the audio codec. The Radiance portion is extremely simple...  Could be a fun little project to learn a bit of Python with.


----------



## docrog

Out of curiosity, how would the new sharpness feature in the upcoming firmware revision be expected to differ in the finished processing from typical sharpness controls which are already present in projectors and players?


----------



## tigerhonaker

Guys,

I appreciate all your input on the incoming Lumagen Pro Model 4242 I'll be purchasing this coming week.

Also, I have now heard back from Chad B that's going to be here *October, Monday 26th & Tuesday 27th*.
He also has answered what I was wanting to know on using or not using the Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
So, I'm all set other than making this an Official-Purchase with Craig Peer this coming week. 

Terry


----------



## steelman1991

tigerhonaker said:


> Guys,
> 
> I appreciate all your input on the incoming Lumagen Pro Model 4242 I'll be purchasing this coming week.
> 
> Also, I have now heard back from Chad B that's going to be here *October, Monday 26th & Tuesday 27th*.
> He also has answered what I was wanting to know on using or not using the Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
> So, I'm all set other than making this an Official-Purchase with Craig Peer this coming week.
> 
> Terry


What did he recommend Terry? With regard to the Marantz and it’s position in the chain?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tigerhonaker

steelman1991 said:


> What did he recommend Terry? With regard to the Marantz and it’s position in the chain?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*steelman1991 *and *Others,*

Below is that information and what I think *guys *regarding it.
I don't wish to ever come across on this AVS Internet Site as being rude *guys*.
But, If this turns-out like what I and other's observed from the Australian fellow Woofer (Paul) Blind-Testing video-processors I'm going to Delete {This} Post !!!









Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...


Really?!?! I have seen numerous manufacturers argue even double blind tests. They always find a way. Too true! 🤣 🤣 🤣




www.avsforum.com













Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...


Really?!?! I have seen numerous manufacturers argue even double blind tests. They always find a way. Too true! 🤣 🤣 🤣




www.avsforum.com





I'm feeling compelled to say the below because of another Dedicated Thread where Multiple Video Processors were recently Blind-Tested.
I'm pretty sure there are those that won't agree with Chad and there are many of you that do things different.
I only mention the above to say I don't question what others do.
They do what is their preferred preferences and that's the way it should be.
My thinking regarding one using any Custom Calibrator is simple see below.
If I know more than that person and in this case Chad B then why am I paying him ???
My only point is some of us have the need to use others for our Home Theater's and or Media areas.
I'm one of those people and therefore I don't really for the most part question what Chad B has to say.
I did talk with him multiple times recently on the Lumagen Pro and found out he goes all the way back to when it was 1st on the market to the general-public.
Which is something like 20-years ................
I think I will get the results that I want from Chad regarding Both Audio & Video and be happy with my HT. 🎥 
Do I think that there are other Custom Calibrator's that could possibly do a better job than Chad ???
Maybe so but I am choosing Chad and this will be his 3rd time to do this sort of thing for me.



> Chad B,
> Use the Marantz.
> Having the video conversion (on screen overlay) on is very helpful,
> and on Denon and Marantz it does not degrade the video quality at all except on those rare sources that output RGB color space at 8 bit depth.
> Most sources are fine, and even on those rare sources that are not I will do what is necessary.
> I will make sure running through the Marantz will not degrade the quality.


Terry


----------



## bobof

tigerhonaker said:


> I don't wish to ever come across on this AVS Internet Site as being rude *guys*.
> But, If this turns-out like what I and other's observed from the Australian fellow Woofer (Paul) Blind-Testing video-processors I'm going to Delete {This} Post !!!


Chill, there's nothing like that level of controversy ever in this thread.  Folk are mostly just interested to hear the benefit of others experiences...


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bobof said:


> My Raspberry Pi has a USB serial adapter on it connected to the Lumagen serial port (though you could use the USB port too I believe, but I have that connected to my PC for calibration duties). So direct connection to the Lumagen. I use IP connections to the Receiver (and also to my projector - JVC X7900 - and screen masks controller).
> 
> This script was just an example to prove the concept. I'm going to integrate it with the rest of my control script that switches projector modes and deals with screen masking from auto-aspect.
> 
> I did have an Arcam prior to the NAD, just never got round to doing it. The lack of volume OSD never really bothered me that much, but actually having got it working nowI might well keep it. I see there are further options to set the colour and blend value of the messages, so I'm going to play with them later, as it is nice to be able to see this info but not have it jump out at you.


ah. but i was going to use the serial for control4 to control it. i guess IR but that's 1 way vs. 2. wonder if IR is good enough for control4? I do have a rasberry pi i'm running pi-hole on, love those things. might be a project i get my 14yr old to do to learn


----------



## gadgetfreaky

bjorg said:


> My C4 integrator says it's not possible to combine the MemA-MemD settings on the same UI as the Oppo controls using the Neeo remote. Is that true or do I need to find someone else?


what do you mean? i was about to ge tthe neeo and memA and memB is important since @Kris Deering programmed a memB for bright mode on my projector. are you saying you wanted a hard button on the remote? i thought there are soft buttons you ca program?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

tigerhonaker said:


> Guys,
> 
> I appreciate all your input on the incoming Lumagen Pro Model 4242 I'll be purchasing this coming week.
> 
> Also, I have now heard back from Chad B that's going to be here *October, Monday 26th & Tuesday 27th*.
> He also has answered what I was wanting to know on using or not using the Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
> So, I'm all set other than making this an Official-Purchase with Craig Peer this coming week.
> 
> Terry


he is amazing. I still can't believe I waited so long to do the lumagen + @Kris Deering it literally is night and day


----------



## bobof

gadgetfreaky said:


> ah. but i was going to use the serial for control4 to control it. i guess IR but that's 1 way vs. 2. wonder if IR is good enough for control4? I do have a rasberry pi i'm running pi-hole on, love those things. might be a project i get my 14yr old to do to learn


Well, really all this stuff lives in whatever is the control system; if there is a control4 the strong preference has to be to do it all in there. I mean look at the script - there's nothing to it, it can't be beyond the wit of man... You're better off having just one device trying to get the Pro to do stuff. In my case, everything happens in the Pi.

I personally do it in a Pi as combined with the Harmony it does the job and suits my level of cheapness, and it gives me a little problem to solve in an evening. But it always strikes me if a proper CI control system is being done, that they really should implement the features needed to give the customer a great result. 

Of course commercial realities are not all installers are capable of making custom modules, not all pre-built modules expose all functionality, not all control systems have the necessary logic, and not all customers want to spend a programmer hourly rate on custom work...


----------



## Die Zwei

gadgetfreaky said:


> what do you mean? i was about to ge tthe neeo and memA and memB is important since @Kris Deering programmed a memB for bright mode on my projector. are you saying you wanted a hard button on the remote? i thought there are soft buttons you ca program?


Control4 is pretty limited in terms of GUI customization.
That´s one of it´s advantages - chances are very reduced that a terrible techie programmer can screw up the user experince with a awkward GUI.
But the disadvantage is that you can´t combine functionality of several devices into one GUI. 
However, there´s the possiblity to program "custom buttons" or "experince buttons" to overcome this limitation a bit. Ask your integrator about these.


----------



## steelman1991

tigerhonaker said:


> *steelman1991 *and *Others,*
> 
> Below is that information and what I think *guys *regarding it.
> I don't wish to ever come across on this AVS Internet Site as being rude *guys*.
> But, If this turns-out like what I and other's observed from the Australian fellow Woofer (Paul) Blind-Testing video-processors I'm going to Delete {This} Post !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...
> 
> 
> Really?!?! I have seen numerous manufacturers argue even double blind tests. They always find a way. Too true! 🤣 🤣 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...
> 
> 
> Really?!?! I have seen numerous manufacturers argue even double blind tests. They always find a way. Too true! 🤣 🤣 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm feeling compelled to say the below because of another Dedicated Thread where Multiple Video Processors were recently Blind-Tested.
> I'm pretty sure there are those that won't agree with Chad and there are many of you that do things different.
> I only mention the above to say I don't question what others do.
> They do what is their preferred preferences and that's the way it should be.
> My thinking regarding one using any Custom Calibrator is simple see below.
> If I know more than that person and in this case Chad B then why am I paying him ???
> My only point is some of us have the need to use others for our Home Theater's and or Media areas.
> I'm one of those people and therefore I don't really for the most part question what Chad B has to say.
> I did talk with him multiple times recently on the Lumagen Pro and found out he goes all the way back to when it was 1st on the market to the general-public.
> Which is something like 20-years ................
> I think I will get the results that I want from Chad regarding Both Audio & Video and be happy with my HT.
> Do I think that there are other Custom Calibrator's that could possibly do a better job than Chad ???
> Maybe so but I am choosing Chad and this will be his 3rd time to do this sort of thing for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Terry


No need to second guess Terry. It was a genuine question. I’ve seen that thread too and it’s a car crash.

I asked because I have tried both ways (with both a Marantz and Emotiva RMC-1 and can’t find any difference either way, other than having access to the OSD when letting the processor handle the switching

Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

Peule_P said:


> how are you feeding 480i to the Lumagen? I have a DVDO VP50Pro in the loop to go from composite (Laserdisc) to HDMI first.


It's coming from an Oppo 203 in Source Direct mode, which yields the best results for me. I tried nVidia Shiled with resolution and frame rate matching, but it can't emit 480i, only 480p.


----------



## tigerhonaker

steelman1991 said:


> No need to second guess Terry. It was a genuine question. I’ve seen that thread too and it’s a car crash.
> 
> I asked because I have tried both ways (with both a Marantz and Emotiva RMC-1 and can’t find any difference either way, other than having access to the OSD when letting the processor handle the switching
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


steelman1991,

No-Worries at all on me providing what Chad sent me.
I think some of us are now just a little paranoid after the Catastrophe over on that other dedicated thread on Video Processors that the test was done.
I wish we could simply post with one another in an open truthful fashion without all the additional drama.

Anyway, I'm wanting the on-screen menu's to show on the screen as it makes it so easy and simple to see what one is doing.
Especially for us married guy's that our wives occasionally would like to be able to turn-on the HT when we are not around.

Terry


----------



## Craig Peer

I need to quit anxiously checking the Lumagen Radiance Pro firmware update page so often - I'm giving myself whiplash !


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> I need to quit anxiously checking the Lumagen Radiance Pro firmware update page so often - I'm giving myself whiplash !


Craig - I watched the Blu Ray of the Movie Skyfall (Bond) for an hour and noticed the picture was spectacular - very comparable to many 4K HDR movies I have watched.
Does the Radiance upscale all HD to 4K? and is that what Lumagen trying to further improve?
Let us know.
Ash


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ash Sharma said:


> Craig - I watched the Blu Ray of the Movie Skyfall (Bond) for an hour and noticed the picture was spectacular - very comparable to many 4K HDR movies I have watched.
> Does the Radiance upscale all HD to 4K? and is that what Lumagen trying to further improve?
> Let us know.
> Ash


Not Craig, but yes, improved scaling and sharpening tools coming.


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> Craig - I watched the Blu Ray of the Movie Skyfall (Bond) for an hour and noticed the picture was spectacular - very comparable to many 4K HDR movies I have watched.
> Does the Radiance upscale all HD to 4K? and is that what Lumagen trying to further improve?
> Let us know.
> Ash


Yes and yes, like Mike said. Mine also is set up to scale HD to 4096 x 2160 for scope films with my DCR lens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gadgetfreaky

For those wit Nvidia Shield Pro's what are your settings? Do you use the AI Enhanced upscaling? Medium? low? or leave it at Basic? or is there a way to turn it off?
What about match frame rate (beta)? 
On plex, I have refresh rate switching on and resolution switching on. Anything else on plex? (should HDMI passthrough for audio be disabled? i have lumgen outputing audio out of output 1 to my Arcam).

I launched developer mode and found a "stay awake screen will never sleep while charging" as well as a "reset HDMI when errors are detected" although not sure what the latter does I'm hoping this fixes the once in a while issue of the lumagen sometimes giving me a green snowing screen or hdmi handshake issues with my benq where when i turn on everything the benq doesn't think there's a picture and I have to switch inputs on the lumagen to something else than back to the nvidia for it to work. (anyone else have this problem?)

I mostly watch Netflix, Amazon, HBO Hulu,. I think there's a lot of 1080p content, but I thin the nvidia is upscaling them? I'm trying to figure out the match frame rate thing, do I have to turn it on every single time I watch a new piece of content? trying to figure out what this even does on those apps.


----------



## garyolearysteele

jbrinegar said:


> Yes, you are correct! Thank you! Time stamp is 22:30ish season 2 ep 10 umbrella academy.
> 
> The sky keeps flashing a reddish color on my apple 4k tv. Would love to know if anyone else notices this


I finally got round to checking this now my Lumagen is installed. I can confirm i see a similar thing, its not red in my case but rather it flickers between blue and grey and does it several times throughout the fight scene.


----------



## LJG

Craig Peer said:


> I need to quit anxiously checking the Lumagen Radiance Pro firmware update page so often - I'm giving myself whiplash !


Me Too!!! Can't wait for this update


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen


*FW 092320*
_Posted 10520_ 
Added sharpening enhancement feature which can be accessed in menu under _*Input: In Configs: RES: Enhance*_ (or with right arrow).
Has level setting from 0-7 (7 being extreme sharpening) and a sensitivity setting which can be set to High or Norm (the High setting avoids sharpening low level changes). 
You can also access sharpening with right arrow command if you set the option under _*Other: I/O Setup: Remote Ctl: R/Left arrows*_ option for this.
Several improvements in FPGA have improved pixel precision especially for 1080 being upscaled to 4k.
Fix for DTM with some fast scene changes causing distracting color change (problem originally seem in Umbrella Academy with bright clouds in background).
Fix for menu command to reset all settings except CMS.
Fix for being unable to copy input settings to virtual inputs.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## Craig Peer

Yah baby !


----------



## ShaharT

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> *FW 092320*
> _Posted 10520_
> Added sharpening enhancement feature which can be accessed in menu under _*Input: In Configs: RES: Enhance*_ (or with right arrow).
> Has level setting from 0-7 (7 being extreme sharpening) and a sensitivity setting which can be set to High or Norm (the High setting avoids sharpening low level changes).
> You can also access sharpening with right arrow command if you set the option under _*Other: I/O Setup: Remote Ctl: R/Left arrows*_ option for this.
> Several improvements in FPGA have improved pixel precision especially for 1080 being upscaled to 4k.
> Fix for DTM with some fast scene changes causing distracting color change (problem originally seem in Umbrella Academy with bright clouds in background).
> Fix for menu command to reset all settings except CMS.
> Fix for being unable to copy input settings to virtual inputs.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
> _Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


Awesome, thank you!


----------



## Kris Deering

Just wanted to put some info out about the new sharpening feature. This is applied and set on a PER RESOLUTION basis, so you can have a different setting for different input resolutions (and different inputs). So you may find that one source needs a different value than another, or one resolution more than another. 

I've mainly stuck to evaluating 1080 and 4K content. With 1080, I find a value of 2-4 to be ideal IMHO. I mainly stick to 2-3 with 3 probably being a safe default for those that want a balance of a nice uptick in noticeable sharpness but minimal artifacts (some REALLY sharp 1080 material may be better at 2). Same goes for 4K as well, I'm finding 3 a good place for most content without looking exaggerated or adding noticeable noise/ringing. I tend to evaluate with the sharpest transfers and set my levels for those because soft movies are gonna look soft and compensating for them as the mainstay can make good looking transfers look over done. This is obviously season to taste, so set wherever you prefer! You can also turn it on and off from the same menu instantly, so it makes it easy to compare. I also found that if you use Darbee you may want to reduce the setting on that so the two don't combine and create an exaggerated image. I find 20-25 a good balance point. 

The Sensitivity function is due to some artifacts that were seen with content that has encoding issues like dither, noise or compression artifacts. Depending on the issue, the enhancement would create more issues in their interaction with the source problems. So if you are seeing noticeable artifacts, I would try HIGH as that changes how the feature works and does a better job of reducing artifacts that are inherent in the source but exaggerated by the feature. This should be rare hopefully!


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Just wanted to put some info out about the new sharpening feature. This is applied and set on a PER RESOLUTION basis, so you can have a different setting for different input resolutions (and different inputs). So you may find that one source needs a different value than another, or one resolution more than another.


Kris, the other day I asked how this sharpening tool differs (in perceived results) when compared with sharpening applied either in a source device (such as a player) or in the projector. Nobody responded. Could you or @jrp shed some light on this question? Thanks, as always.


----------



## ShaharT

Kris Deering said:


> I just wanted to put some info out about the new sharpening feature. This is applied and set on a PER RESOLUTION basis, so you can have a different setting for different input resolutions (and different inputs). So you may find that one source needs a different value than another, or one resolution more than another.
> 
> I've mainly stuck to evaluating 1080 and 4K content. With 1080, I find a value of 2-4 to be ideal IMHO. I mainly stick to 2-3 with 3 probably being a safe default for those that want a balance of a nice uptick in noticeable sharpness but minimal artifacts (some REALLY sharp 1080 material may be better at 2). Same goes for 4K as well, I'm finding 3 a good place for most content without looking exaggerated or adding noticeable noise/ringing. I tend to evaluate with the sharpest transfers and set my levels for those because soft movies are gonna look soft and compensating for them as the mainstay can make good looking transfers look over done. This is obviously season to taste, so set wherever you prefer! You can also turn it on and off from the same menu instantly, so it makes it easy to compare. I also found that if you use Darbee you may want to reduce the setting on that so the two don't combine and create an exaggerated image. I find 20-25 a good balance point.
> 
> The Sensitivity function is due to some artifacts that were seen with content that has encoding issues like dither, noise or compression artifacts. Depending on the issue, the enhancement would create more issues in their interaction with the source problems. So if you are seeing noticeable artifacts, I would try HIGH as that changes how the feature works and does a better job of reducing artifacts that are inherent in the source but exaggerated by the feature. This should be rare hopefully!


Thanks for the details and explanation. I've just finished flashing it and about to give it a go...


----------



## jrp

Kris beat me to posting on the new sharpness feature. His comments are right on. Sharpness is a per-input, per-input-memory, and per-input-resolution, feature. So you can have different settings, and select them using the input memories if desired. Quick access using the right-arrow which is now shared with Darbee.

One additional detail I would like to add is for UHD and/or HDR content: I use a slightly higher setting for content shot or mastered at 2k (or there about) than for content shot and mastered at 4k or higher. So, you might use 3 for true 4k content and a setting of 4 for UHD content shot/mastered at 2k. Or maybe 2 and 3, respectively.

I recommend leaving the setting one click down from "very noticeable." For me personally I would rather error on the side of less sharpness rather risk over-sharpening. Of course some content looks fine with a higher setting than other content. Completely up to you and your preference.

In summary, I have to say I like our sharpness feature, which is completely different than my feelings about other sharpness features. If you don't over do it, the Radiance Pro sharpness features gives a nice step up in detail without looking artificial. We really worked hard recover detail lost in mastering and compression but avoid the "artificial" and "over processed" look some have noted with other sharpness features.

Let us know if you like it, and if you do, I am interested in hearing what settings you are using for HD, UHD-mastered-at-2k, and UHD-mastered-at-4k. Please let us know what you decide for settings. I am sure other will benefit from your analysis.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> Kris beat me to posting on the new sharpness feature. His comments are right on. Sharpness is a per-input, per-input-memory, and per-input-resolution, feature. So you can have different settings, and select them using the input memories if desired. Quick access using the right-arrow which is now shared with Darbee.
> 
> One additional detail I would like to add is for UHD and/or HDR content: I use a slightly higher setting for content shot or mastered at 2k (or there about) than for content shot and mastered at 4k or higher. So, you might use 3 for true 4k content and a setting of 4 for UHD content shot/mastered at 2k. Or maybe 2 and 3, respectively.
> 
> I recommend leaving the setting one click down from "very noticeable." For me personally I would rather error on the side of less sharpness rather risk over-sharpening. Of course some content looks fine with a higher setting than other content. Completely up to you and your preference.
> 
> In summary, I have to say I like our sharpness feature, which is completely different than my feelings about other sharpness features. If you don't over do it, the Radiance Pro sharpness features gives a nice step up in detail without looking artificial. We really worked hard recover detail lost in mastering and compression but avoid the "artificial" and "over processed" look some have noted with other sharpness features.
> 
> Let us know if you like it, and if you do, I am interested in hearing what settings you are using for HD, UHD-mastered-at-2k, and UHD-mastered-at-4k. Please let us know what you decide for settings. I am sure other will benefit from your analysis.


I can't wait to try it out!

Taking one for the _low-resolution_ fans. I use "Darbee Pop, Gain 40, Step 5" for my 480i content. Any suggestions on how to leverage the new sharpness feature to optimal effect?


----------



## Craig Peer

I’ll be testing this new firmware tonight with Sicario 2 ( 4K Blu-ray ) and tomorrow night with the Blu-ray “ Return To Mother “ ( a film from Kazakhstan). Got it installed and set up, ready to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

As a big fan of Darbee, I must say the new Sharpness controls are winning me over. At least, that's my first impression.

For HD, I'm using Level 3 with Darbee Off. For UHD, I set it to Level 2, but I have not yet gone through enough material to settle on it.

For 480i, I use Level 2 for Sharpness and Darbee at 30 Pop (down from 40). I've only watched about 10 minutes or so of footage. Level 3 became too visible on text overlays. Probably because the pixels are larger, so any enhancement is that much more pronounced.

Overall, !!!


----------



## audioguy

Will give this a go tomorrow! Really looking forward to it.


----------



## BrolicBeast

The inclusion of this sharpening feature takes the RadiancePro from Heroic to Legendary!!! 

#HaloReference 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike Garrett

Updated and set sharpening to 3. Looks good so far.


----------



## dlinsley

bjorg said:


> For HD, I'm using Level 3 with Darbee Off. For UHD, I set it to Level 2, but I have not yet gone through enough material to settle on it.


Same sharpening (though Darbee HD 25). Really impressed so far!

Regarding the per-input settings, it appears the right arrow menu is global per-resolution? Or is that just the default once enabled for a resolution on any input? I was seeing the same UHD setting I had set on my Apple TV input then be the default on the Oppo's input with a 4k disc.


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> Same sharpening (though Darbee HD 25). Really impressed so far!
> 
> Regarding the per-input settings, it appears the right arrow menu is global per-resolution? Or is that just the default once enabled for a resolution on any input? I was seeing the same UHD setting I had set on my Apple TV input then be the default on the Oppo's input with a 4k disc.


Thanks for the positive feedback. So far all public and private feedback has been very positive.

====

By default all inputs and all memories use input-resolution memory "0" so yes it will apply across inputs and memories. You would have to reprogram the input config to use a different input config memory to have them be different.

Possible that there is a bug that (incorrectly) applies changes across inputs. We will check into this.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> Thanks for the positive feedback. So far all public and private feedback has been very positive.
> 
> ====
> 
> By default all inputs and all memories use input-resolution memory "0" so yes it will apply across inputs and memories. You would have to reprogram the input config to use a different input config memory to have them be different.
> 
> Possible that there is a bug that (incorrectly) applies changes across inputs. We will check into this.


If it's not a bug, it's a feature  I prefer it this way - a shortcut to setting to all inputs (so long as it remains per resolution). If we can then override specific input, case closed.
I had to play with this until 3 am in my time zone, and I was blown away. Even on static photos like the background cover image of Alita from a Dune 4k, the change is subtle yet impressive.
Kudos for yet another impressive progress and great value to your customers.


----------



## bjorg

Question on lip sync: what is the best approach to consistently achieve the correct synchronization? I must admit, I know nothing of the _Lip Sync_ feature in HDMI connections, but it seems more of a marketing feature since I've never had it actually work as expected. Does it really help or does it create a moving target?

How do you achieve perfect audio-video synchronization?


----------



## Mark_H

bjorg said:


> How do you achieve perfect audio-video synchronization?


You measure it and use whatever lipsync adjustments you have available to mitigate.






Home


Sync-One2 is the reference tool for accurate measurement of AV sync (Lip-Sync) errors. Trusted worldwide in Post Production, Cinema, and system Calibration



sync-one2.harkwood.co.uk


----------



## Peule_P

Mark_H said:


> You measure it and use whatever lipsync adjustments you have available to mitigate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home
> 
> 
> Sync-One2 is the reference tool for accurate measurement of AV sync (Lip-Sync) errors. Trusted worldwide in Post Production, Cinema, and system Calibration
> 
> 
> 
> sync-one2.harkwood.co.uk


nice piece of kit, any idea of the costs and if it is feasible for an end user to buy?


----------



## Mark Burton

New sharpening update is superb! The difference is night and day.

IMO best update that has been done!!

Well done guys! 👏🏻


----------



## gattorodolfo

I guess I'll be home early from the office tonight, reading great reviews and can't wait to catch up.......


----------



## EVH78

This is a great update for the radiance! It works specifically well with blu rays and 1080p content!


----------



## PeterLarsson

Hi,

Bare with me now, since first of all: I am toally new into the field of video processing and in SwedenI have no chance to test or evaluate a Lumagen since we have no official retialers here . 

I am actually considering upgrading my projector from JVC N5 to the brand new Sony VW790 (VW915 here is US) and after one full weeend with the VW790 and my own N5 in my own theater there are some questions and things that I would like to get your view on. I have realy enjoyed UHD and HDR since JVC N5s DTM solution have done a really good job - at least compared to Static one from UB-820 for example. Sony VW790s HDR enhancer more or less perform as N5 result wise, however not very much "better" result which could be expected due to another league of projector... The picture was in some sense dimmer but still with all the detailes there. So another approach than JVCs DTM solution but not worse I would say. Unfortunately I cant use the Dynamic Control even on "middle" on VW790 since it is very aggresive on HDR and a lot of flicker in the picture while the gain is changed so have to have that feature off on HDR.

Investing in VW790 also trigger me to enable the absolute best also whne if comes to HDR and therfore Lumagen comes into the picture, I have read the manual but still have some (subective in some sense) questions. Hopa some of them could be answrered.

1. If comparing with JVCs DTM and SONYs HDR Enhancer with Dynamic control - what would you say about the result? Is it not even comparable or slighly better or very much better? Would it be possible to quantify the mailn differences and make that understandable? If I buy a Sony VW790 I also want the absolute best possible HDR experience
2. I connect the ATV, Set-up box, UHD player into Lumagen and route the the audio to my Arcam and Video to projector. Can I also route back Arcam so I get volume on screen for example?
3. Do I need to calibrate for each input? That would be a dream scenarios to just have one output calibrated and the inputs are adopted to that, but understand it doesnt work like that of course
4. I have 2.35:1 screen ClearPix. Should I continue to zoom the projector or how would you recommend the setup here? Sony "spill" som light in really dark scenes so it would be good to mask that away at least.
5. I understand that nowadays the displays are such good that you controls the displays have is good enough to get a good result. Would you also recommend to actaully use Lumagen also for that vene if my primary intrest would be to have a world class DTM solution (the driver behind a potential puchase)

Sorry for the novel and I am really thankful in advance for your thoughts and inputs


----------



## hamster71

BrolicBeast said:


> The inclusion of this sharpening feature takes the RadiancePro from Heroic to Legendary!!!


No better, I am now really happy to own this wonderful machine 😃.

There are a lot of people who have been waiting for these famous sharpness settings and I sincerely hope that people who were hesitant to buy the Lumagen Pro will take the plunge now.

I will test tomorrow evening but in view of the first feedback, I don't worry too much 😉.


----------



## Craig Peer

Obviously I need to watch a lot more content, but so far it looks really good.

For 1080P upscaled to 4K I have sharpening on 3.

For 4K UHD I also have sharpening on 3. 

Sensitivity – High.

Darbee seemed to be set at a default of 40, even though I could have sworn it was off ( does it re-set during firmware updates ? ), so I tried 20, then 15, then flipped it on and off using the Blu-ray " Cloud Atlas " as a test disc. Personally, I find the picture a tad cleaner looking with sharpness at 3 and Darbee off, so that's what I'm rolling with. 

I watched " Hunter Killer " on 4K Blu - ray last night after setting up the new Lumagen settings, and the picture looked fantastic ( great soundtrack too - killer LFE ). Detail and the crisp look of that movie was incredible. I have friends coming Wed. to watch " The Gentlemen " on 4K Blu - ray. This will be the 4th or 5th time I've watched it in as many weeks, so I'm interested to see how much better it can look, since I thought it looked outstanding already ! 

Very pleased with this improvement !


----------



## A7mad78

Just installed and ready to discover and enjoy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## loggeo

Watching 300 on uhd. Grainy film, difficult material. I settled at Level 2 Sens High.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Just updated to the new firmware and now i have no signal to the projector. The log says it completed successfully and it powered down, but now there's not life, no signal to the projector. The lumagen appears to power up and down red/blue light but no signal to the projector.

Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks
Gary


----------



## fatherom

garyolearysteele said:


> Just updated to the new firmware and now i have no signal to the projector. The log says it completed successfully and it powered down, but now there's not life, no signal to the projector. The lumagen appears to power up and down red/blue light but no signal to the projector.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas?
> 
> Thanks
> Gary


I was on Input 1 when I did the f/w update. After the update, I had no signal either...I re-pressed "Input" and "1" and then it came back.


----------



## Ian_Currie

I've updated and have turned on the sharpening but I'm having a tough time seeing any difference. I've only tried with 2160p material so that could be why...


----------



## A7mad78

What a step forward the improvement in this FW thx a lot Jim and all the team behind this great upgrade again like a have new projector 

My preference from first test and I play from 480i to 4k HDR 

For HD and below 

I prefer 

Sharpens level 3
Sensitivity High

Darbee
ON
Gain 20 
Mode HD 

For 4K the same above but of course No Darbee 


So impressive  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garyolearysteele

fatherom said:


> I was on Input 1 when I did the f/w update. After the update, I had no signal either...I re-pressed "Input" and "1" and then it came back.


Sadly that didnt work, do you have to press them togther?

Im trying to rollback now.


----------



## fatherom

garyolearysteele said:


> Sadly that didnt work, do you have to press them togther?
> 
> Im trying to rollback now.


You don't press them together, you press one after the other.


----------



## garyolearysteele

garyolearysteele said:


> Sadly that didnt work, do you have to press them togther?
> 
> Im trying to rollback now.


Rolling back fixed the issue, the new firmware doesnt seem to like my setup Lumagen -> Ugreen fiber HDMI->Sony vw760es.... i use control4 to select the inputs via serial but didnt get a signal on any of the inputs. 

I'll report it to them..


----------



## Mark Burton

garyolearysteele said:


> Rolling back fixed the issue, the new firmware doesnt seem to like my setup Lumagen -> Ugreen fiber HDMI->Sony vw760es.... i use control4 to select the inputs via serial but didnt get a signal on any of the inputs.
> 
> I'll report it to them..


I’d try it again. If it doesn’t work, power down the lumagen from the plug and then restart everything.

Works fine with my 760.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mark Burton said:


> I’d try it again. If it doesn’t work, power down the lumagen from the plug and then restart everything.
> 
> Works fine with my 760.


Tried it 4 times with different update methods; auto, forced, boot loader x2
with full power down between each one. I might give it another go tomorrow but I’d be surprised to see it work now as is. I’ve emailed lumagen support so hopefully they can offer any further advice 🤞


----------



## docrog

Having successfully completed the new firmware update, I very much looking forward to watching my (SD) DVD of "The Abyss" to see how much of an uptick in quality Lumagen's current combination of sharpness enhancement, Darbee processing and improved upscaling algorithms can provide to that (ancient) legacy format since it remains unclear whether or not James Cameron will ever remaster it in HD or UHD.


----------



## audioguy

The Directors Cut of that movie is one of my top favorites!


----------



## Jue Liang

Received my 4242 today, did the f/w update, quickly set up HDR DTM max light to 4 times of measured brightness, dpad to 1 (I believe these are the most popular settings). Set output to sdr2020 with an HDR flag. Sharpening level 3, high sensitivity. 

The picture is so f***ing good!!!!!! I have been using both madVR and JVC DTM for a year, always find some obvious artifacts from both solution. Now I only wish I have bought a Lumagen much earlier!


----------



## jbrinegar

Did you ever figure out a workaround for JVC's autoswitching to gamma 2.4 for SDR2020 that was affected by the JVC firmware update?


----------



## Jue Liang

jbrinegar said:


> Did you ever figure out a workaround for JVC's autoswitching to gamma 2.4 for SDR2020 that was affected by the JVC firmware update?


Yes, select User 4 mode as the auto select HDR mode, change tone mapping to custom 1, choose correction value to import. Then in the autocal gamma tool, I set custom 1 value to 2.6, which measured 2.45, and fine tuned the gamma curve to match 2.4.


----------



## dlinsley

Jue Liang said:


> Yes, select User 4 mode as the auto select HDR mode, change tone mapping to custom 1, choose correction value to import. Then in the autocal gamma tool, I set custom 1 value to 2.6, which measured 2.45, and fine tuned the gamma curve to match 2.4.


I hope JVC go back to letting you pick any mode, that is a ridiculous work around. Even though I have the Radiance, the new JVC FW would be nice for the auto-switch 3D user mode. To praise and not shoot the messenger, thank you for documenting the work around!


----------



## audioguy

Watched a few moments of Avatar using Sharpening, 3, High and Darbee, 45,HD!

Can't imagine the 4K/HDR image looking much better.

Super impressed - and all at no additional cost - one heck of a deal!!


----------



## Killroy

Just wanted to chime in that the new firmware is just absolutely stunning. Great job to the Lumagen team! Blu-rays look better than I have ever seen them before and that comes from a long-time MadVR user. I kept rewinding (just to age myself with that outdated term) during various scenes since I could not believe how good things looked.

These are just iPhone shots so no where near what I could see on screen...




















Now I have to go back and watch a bunch of movies again just to see how good they will look now.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Hi all. I am new to this forum and have had a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4442 now for nearly 2 months. For those on the Australian based StereoNET forum I am known as MrC. I have had my JVC X7900 calibrated with my Radiance Pro and am highly impressed. Yesterday I performed my very FIRST update and everything went off without a hitch. Well done Jim Peterson and company 🏆 .... congratulations for all the work being done to get this product to where it is. I have the sharpening on 3 or 4 depending on the source material. I like it how I can adjust this setting on the FLY using the RIGHT ARROW key press. At present any change in this setting appears to be stick for other inputs ... which is what I like. My view already is that the sharpness setting is best tweaked once you see your source material on screen, rather than trying to set a level for each particular input/resolution. So I request that you LEAVE it as it is and not change this. As some have already commented, we/I like this FEATURE (whether it was intended or not).

By the way, what is the difference between the NORMAL and SENSITIVE setting for the sharpness. For example what is the difference to having the sharpness on 3 NORMAL and 3 SENSITIVE ?


----------



## MOberhardt

Another dumb question, the DTM for the Lumagen. Just wondering if it handles correctly titles that have mastering issues in the metadata like The Meg, where I believe there is metadata saying maxcll or something of 1k, but the content goes up to 4k, or something to that effect.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> Hi all. I am new to this forum and have had a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4442 now for nearly 2 months. For those on the Australian based StereoNET forum I am known as MrC. I have had my JVC X7900 calibrated with my Radiance Pro and am highly impressed. Yesterday I performed my very FIRST update and everything went off without a hitch. Well done Jim Peterson and company 🏆 .... congratulations for all the work being done to get this product to where it is. I have the sharpening on 3 or 4 depending on the source material. I like it how I can adjust this setting on the FLY using the RIGHT ARROW key press. At present any change in this setting appears to be stick for other inputs ... which is what I like. My view already is that the sharpness setting is best tweaked once you see your source material on screen, rather than trying to set a level for each particular input/resolution. So I request that you LEAVE it as it is and not change this. As some have already commented, we/I like this FEATURE (whether it was intended or not).
> 
> By the way, what is the difference between the NORMAL and SENSITIVE setting for the sharpness. For example what is the difference to having the sharpness on 3 NORMAL and 3 SENSITIVE ?


What I meant to say is what is the difference between the NORMAL and HIGH settings for the SENSITIVITY parameter ?


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ian_Currie said:


> I've updated and have turned on the sharpening but I'm having a tough time seeing any difference. I've only tried with 2160p material so that could be why...


After setting sharpening, did you save it? If not and you turned off the projector, your setting would go back to 0.


----------



## Mike Garrett

garyolearysteele said:


> Tried it 4 times with different update methods; auto, forced, boot loader x2
> with full power down between each one. I might give it another go tomorrow but I’d be surprised to see it work now as is. I’ve emailed lumagen support so hopefully they can offer any further advice 🤞


After power down, did you pull power from the Lumagen and then connect power back and start up?


----------



## appelz

Peule_P said:


> nice piece of kit, any idea of the costs and if it is feasible for an end user to buy?


I think I paid $500 or $600 for mine a few years back, from AVPro.









Sync-One2


Easy and accurate measurement of Audio Visual synchronization / lip-sync errors



www.avprostore.com





Spears and Munsil disc has the sync track for it also.


----------



## docrog

So, here are my observations regarding the new firmware and the DVD (480p) of "The Abyss": My Sony X800 player can output at native resolution, so I did virtually every reasonable combination of Sharpness & Darbee (ON & OFF) with the Lumagen upscaling from 480p as well as from1080p (initially upscaled in the X800). To my eyes, the winning combination was: X800 upscaling to 1080p, Sharpness "ON" and set at 4 with normal sensitivity, Darbee "ON" set at 20, HD (rather than "POP"). "The Abyss" is an incredibly soft movie on DVD to begin with, as might be expected in a 30+ year old film and you really can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The end (post-processing) product would never fool anyone into believing that it was from a Blu Ray source, but it was far more watchable than without any processing, and there wasn't any any ringing or unnatural edge appearance. Obviously, this evaluation was entirely subjective, but may serve as a starting point for others with older legacy source material. It would be great if Lumagen could do a superior job of upscaling from 480p (for older movies and TV series which were never released on Blu Ray and aren't being streamed in HD), but I doubt that this represents an important enough project to expend significant time & resources.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

docrog said:


> It would be great if Lumagen could do a better job of upscaling from 480p (for older movies and TV series which were never released on Blu Ray and aren't being streamed in HD), but I doubt that this represents an important enough project to expend significant time & resources.


It would be ideal as you say. However, perhaps in this modern era, not many people have a great deal of 480p material and so this would not be a high priority.


----------



## Klaus.S

Having a Lumagen for some months now and has been very happy the whole time. But after this update it is very hard to remove the smile from my face. It is simple stunning.

Big thanks to Lumagen for this update


----------



## Ash Sharma

Flashed new Firmware on my 4446 without any Hitches.
Kris Deering helping me to put the right settings in place - Thanks Kris.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Mike Garrett said:


> After setting sharpening, did you save it? If not and you turned off the projector, your setting would go back to 0.


Yes but it was irrelevant because I hadn't turned off the Lumagen... I'm using the right arrow shortcut to adjust the sharpening on the fly and toggle it on and off. There's a slight flash of 'oh it looks different' when I toggle it but afterwards I would not be able to tell you if it was on or off. 

As I said, I just tried it on UHD material (2160p). I did not try 1080p as in my situation that is already scaled to 2160p by madVR. Perhaps most people here are reacting to 1080p material where the scaling in combination with the sharpening makes for a more noticeable effect.

I'm not complaining - it sounds like a wonderful free enhancement and I was quite excited to try it but was just puzzled why I couldn't see a difference on 2160p content.


----------



## fatherom

Ian_Currie said:


> Yes but it was irrelevant because I hadn't turned off the Lumagen... I'm using the right arrow shortcut to adjust the sharpening on the fly and toggle it on and off. There's a slight flash of 'oh it looks different' when I toggle it but afterwards I would not be able to tell you if it was on or off.
> 
> As I said, I just tried it on UHD material (2160p). I did not try 1080p as in my situation that is already scaled to 2160p by madVR. Perhaps most people here are reacting to 1080p material where the scaling in combination with the sharpening makes for a more noticeable effect.
> 
> I'm not complaining - it sounds like a wonderful free enhancement and I was quite excited to try it but was just puzzled why I couldn't see a difference on 2160p content.


When you toggle it on the fly...do you then hit "OK" to commit that change? (not saving, just storing the change "temporarily"). If you hit "Exit" instead, you'll lose the on-the-fly change you just made and it will revert to what it was before.


----------



## SJHT

For folks with Sony projectors (I have a 995), does everyone keep RC off? I tested some scenes with the latest Pro firmware and think mine might be off permanently as there seems to be less artifacts with the Pro only doing the sharpening. SJ


----------



## Ash Sharma

SJHT said:


> For folks with Sony projectors (I have a 995), does everyone keep RC off? I tested some scenes with the latest Pro firmware and think mine might be off permanently as there seems to be less artifacts with the Pro only doing the sharpening. SJ


 Good comment - I love RC on my VW5000 - will see if it needs to turned off once Lumagen Sharpening is engaged.


----------



## Ian_Currie

fatherom said:


> When you toggle it on the fly...do you then hit "OK" to commit that change? (not saving, just storing the change "temporarily"). If you hit "Exit" instead, you'll lose the on-the-fly change you just made and it will revert to what it was before.


Yes I hit OK when I want to exit the menu (I do know how the Lumagen menus work) but I believe even without exiting the menu you can see the changes realtime, no?


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone. I am a novice for Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have had it for about less than a week. I have had it with JVC NX9. I updated it to the latest firmware 092320 and did factory default and saved. I am watching Netflix 4k HDR content via Apple TV 4k. The input is HDR2020 but output is SDR709(as my attached photo) and info of JVC NX9 is SDR Rec.709. So I open latest manual and see one page(as my attached photo). For JVC NX9, when watching HDR content, should I set it to SDR709 or SDR2020?
My ISF calibrator who frequently calibrates Lumagen will come 2-3 weeks later. So I would like to know everyone's opinion about SDR709 or SDR2020 for viewing HDR content on JVC NX9.
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## EVH78

SJHT said:


> For folks with Sony projectors (I have a 995), does everyone keep RC off? I tested some scenes with the latest Pro firmware and think mine might be off permanently as there seems to be less artifacts with the Pro only doing the sharpening. SJ


After experimenting with the new sharpening I decided to leave RC on. Actually I prefer using all of these at a low level: RC, Darbee (mostly 3D) , EE - 995ES. When I see artefacts I tend to look which one of these increases them most.


----------



## bjorg

appelz said:


> Spears and Munsil disc has the sync track for it also.


I used the S&M UHD disc to calibrate the delay on my Oppo 203, but it's not consistent across UHD and 480i content (did not compare HD). Also, when switching sources, such as AppleTV, the lip sync is off again by a noticeable amount. Unfortunately, it appears that the receiver (which is hooked up to Output 1 on the Lumagen) and the Lumagen only have a global A/V delay setting and not per-source, per-resolution. It feels like I'm doing it wrong to have this issue.


----------



## Kris Deering

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> What I meant to say is what is the difference between the NORMAL and HIGH settings for the SENSITIVITY parameter ?


High is designed to be used if the content has artifacts that the sharpening is enhancing that create visible artifacts. So I would recommend NORM as the default and only use high if there are visible artifacts. We found that some compression artifacts would react poorly to the sharpening feature and high is a workaround to still give you some benefit without as many visual issues.


----------



## Kris Deering

Or to put it another way HIGH for Sensitivity is actually going to give LESS sharpening at any given setting.


----------



## dlinsley

Nattypol said:


> I would like to know everyone's opinion about SDR709 or SDR2020 for viewing HDR content on JVC NX9


I'd suggest switching CMS1 to SDR2020, and enable the HDR flag to On. On your NX9 (I have its twin, the RS3000) set the HDR10 mode to either the HDR or BT2020 profile (depending on if you want more light or the widest color), and it will switch to that mode whenever the Lumagen is processing an HDR input.


----------



## wl1

)


PeterLarsson said:


> Hi,
> 
> 1. If comparing with JVCs DTM and SONYs HDR Enhancer with Dynamic control - what would you say about the result? Is it not even comparable or slighly better or very much better? Would it be possible to quantify the mailn differences and make that understandable? If I buy a Sony VW790 I also want the absolute best possible HDR experience
> 2. I connect the ATV, Set-up box, UHD player into Lumagen and route the the audio to my Arcam and Video to projector. Can I also route back Arcam so I get volume on screen for example?
> 3. Do I need to calibrate for each input? That would be a dream scenarios to just have one output calibrated and the inputs are adopted to that, but understand it doesnt work like that of course
> 4. I have 2.35:1 screen ClearPix. Should I continue to zoom the projector or how would you recommend the setup here? Sony "spill" som light in really dark scenes so it would be good to mask that away at least.
> 5. I understand that nowadays the displays are such good that you controls the displays have is good enough to get a good result. Would you also recommend to actaully use Lumagen also for that vene if my primary intrest would be to have a world class DTM solution (the driver behind a potential puchase)
> 
> Sorry for the novel and I am really thankful in advance for your thoughts and inputs


1. I think you should expect the Lumagen to produce a better DTM solution than the Sony alone.
2. Yes, it is common to connect the output of your AVR into a HDMI2 of the Display, for on screen menu etc, then Switch to HDMI1 on the Sony to get the Video signal direct from Lumagen (bypassing the avr). You will need to be careful selecting which model of Lumagen and the Output Options if this is important to you. 
3. Displays are calibrated once - so you should be able to calibrate it for all inputs. If your Sources have issues, you might wish to have another CMS (eg 2.4 or to compensate for 3D glasses). But all this possible - and it’s up to you how much effort and flexibility you Need here.
5. Lumagen strong points are HDMI reliability of switching, 3D LUT calibration, and DTM (and maybe now improved sharpness tools). If these are valuable to you, then go for it.

I would recommend you discuss your requirements with the EU distributor.


----------



## giomania

bjorg said:


> I used the S&M UHD disc to calibrate the delay on my Oppo 203, but it's not consistent across UHD and 480i content (did not compare HD). Also, when switching sources, such as AppleTV, the lip sync is off again by a noticeable amount. Unfortunately, it appears that the receiver (which is hooked up to Output 1 on the Lumagen) and the Lumagen only have a global A/V delay setting and not per-source, per-resolution. It feels like I'm doing it wrong to have this issue.


I have a similar experience, but only with one of the connected displays, which I presume is related to the longer HDMI cable chain on that display. Interestingly, the OPPO UDP-203 and my TiVo Roamio Pro do not seem to be one of the affected source devices on the display with the longer cable chain. What is different about these devices? They have source direct settings.

Display 1: Lumagen -> Marantz AV8805 -> 25-foot standard copper High-Speed HDMI cable (Blue Jeans Cable) -> JVC RS540U
Display 2: Lumagen -> 50-foot Hybrid Fiber HDMI cable (RuiPro) -> Denon AVR-X3500H -> LG B7A OLED

For display 1, no devices have lip-sync issues, IIRC.
For display 2, the 2017 Nvidia Shield TV Pro and the Roku Ultra have issues with HD streaming. I don't remember about HDR streaming, as I don't watch much due to the Comcast data cap limitations.

Mark


----------



## SJHT

EVH78 said:


> After experimenting with the new sharpening I decided to leave RC on. Actually I prefer using all of these at a low level: RC, Darbee (mostly 3D) , EE - 995ES. When I see artefacts I tend to look which one of these increases them most.


I had mine on 20 and could see artifacts especially with light sky backgrounds. Went away when I turned RC off and only used the Pro. What settings are you using?


----------



## Ash Sharma

EVH78 said:


> After experimenting with the new sharpening I decided to leave RC on. Actually I prefer using all of these at a low level: RC, Darbee (mostly 3D) , EE - 995ES. When I see artefacts I tend to look which one of these increases them most.


How about Dynamic Dimming ? I was told that Dynamic Dimming messes up Lumagen DTM !!


----------



## PeterLarsson

wl1 said:


> )
> 
> 1. I think you should expect the Lumagen to produce a better DTM solution than the Sony alone.
> 2. Yes, it is common to connect the output of your AVR into a HDMI2 of the Display, for on screen menu etc, then Switch to HDMI1 on the Sony to get the Video signal direct from Lumagen (bypassing the avr). You will need to be careful selecting which model of Lumagen and the Output Options if this is important to you.
> 3. Displays are calibrated once - so you should be able to calibrate it for all inputs. If your Sources have issues, you might wish to have another CMS (eg 2.4 or to compensate for 3D glasses). But all this possible - and it’s up to you how much effort and flexibility you Need here.
> 5. Lumagen strong points are HDMI reliability of switching, 3D LUT calibration, and DTM (and maybe now improved sharpness tools). If these are valuable to you, then go for it.
> 
> I would recommend you discuss your requirements with the EU distributor.


Thanks a million for tour input!


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> How about Dynamic Dimming ? I was told that Dynamic Dimming messes up Lumagen DTM !!


I don't see any problems on my RS4500 ( I use the less aggressive dimming mode ).


----------



## Craig Peer

A week or two ago I put on the Blu-ray " Kung Fu Hustle " to just watch a little bit, seeing as I hadn't watched it in quite some time. I was going to watch it with some friends. Being an older Blu-ray, it didn't look as good as I remembered - probably due to all of the squeaky clean 4K I've been watching lately. I put it on last night just to see if the new firmware had made any difference. It really has - that movie looks better and sharper / cleaner now, but it's not due to the sharpening feature ( I toggled that on and off to see ). The improvements to scaling have made a difference with older Blu-rays - at least the one I checked so far. There are some substantial upscaling improvements going on in the background - and I'd expect the further pipeline improvements to make things even better. Seeing as I have over 400 Blu-rays, many of which may never see a 4K upgrade, this is excellent !


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> Seeing as I have over 400 Blu-rays, many of which may never see a 4K upgrade, this is excellent !


It would be good to compare the UHD version of say Casino Royale with the BD and see how that looks. I don't have UHD versions of Bond Movies especially as the soundtrack is same as BD so no motivation.


----------



## Jue Liang

Jue Liang said:


> Received my 4242 today, did the f/w update, quickly set up HDR DTM max light to 4 times of measured brightness, dpad to 1 (I believe these are the most popular settings). Set output to sdr2020 with an HDR flag. Sharpening level 3, high sensitivity.
> 
> The picture is so f***ing good!!!!!! I have been using both madVR and JVC DTM for a year, always find some obvious artifacts from both solution. Now I only wish I have bought a Lumagen much earlier!


Back to report some updates:

I spent several hours last night to test drive my new Lumagen. I saw some artifacts here and there, mainly due to scene detection algorithms.

Sometime the shot change (I hope this is the right description) in a single scene would result in brightness fluctuation, looks like the exposure level was changed when filming the scene, but it should not. For example, the first few minutes in the new Mulan movie when young Mulan was chasing a chicken.

Another scenario is when I skip chapters when viewing a movie, the first shot (or scene) of that chapter would not get proper DTM, which would not happen if I just play through it from the scene prior the first scene of a chapter. I think this may due to the Lumagen didn’t get enough frame buffer when I skip chapters?

I didn’t see these type of artifact when I was using JVC DTM or madVR on PC. But, as I mentioned in the JVC thread, the JVC DTM simply does not provide enough dynamic change in the mid-bottom part of EOTF anyway, so it won’t have the problem related to scene/shot detection. MadVR in PC has the advantage to buffer more frames (just my guess), so it can do a better job on scene detection. But madVR has its own issue of saturation error that I don’t like.

None of these DTM solutions is perfect so far, and I like Lumagen’s DTM the most at this moment, madVR is my second favorite (the PC version), and JVC’s is my least favorite, far behind Lumagen and madVR. I hope and firmly believe all three will keep improving. Consumer like us, at least myself, are very lucky to enjoy it!


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> It would be good to compare the UHD version of say Casino Royale with the BD and see how that looks. I don't have UHD versions of Bond Movies especially as the soundtrack is same as BD so no motivation.


One thing you won't get on an upscaled Blu-ray is HDR and the wider color gamut 4K UHD gives you. But if I get a chance I could try and compare.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ian_Currie said:


> Yes but it was irrelevant because I hadn't turned off the Lumagen... I'm using the right arrow shortcut to adjust the sharpening on the fly and toggle it on and off. There's a slight flash of 'oh it looks different' when I toggle it but afterwards I would not be able to tell you if it was on or off.
> 
> As I said, I just tried it on UHD material (2160p). I did not try 1080p as in my situation that is already scaled to 2160p by madVR. Perhaps most people here are reacting to 1080p material where the scaling in combination with the sharpening makes for a more noticeable effect.
> 
> I'm not complaining - it sounds like a wonderful free enhancement and I was quite excited to try it but was just puzzled why I couldn't see a difference on 2160p content.


I just mentioned the part about turning off, in case you had done that. Yes, I was mainly checking 1080P content, but also saw some improvement with 4K content. Enough so on 1080P content, that I ordered a Nvidia Shield so that I can set up streaming of source direct.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Jue Liang said:


> Back to report some updates:
> 
> I spent several hours last night to test drive my new Lumagen. I saw some artifacts here and there, mainly due to scene detection algorithms.
> 
> Sometime the shot change (I hope this is the right description) in a single scene would result in brightness fluctuation, looks like the exposure level was changed when filming the scene, but it should not. For example, the first few minutes in the new Mulan movie when young Mulan was chasing a chicken.
> 
> Another scenario is when I skip chapters when viewing a movie, the first shot (or scene) of that chapter would not get proper DTM, which would not happen if I just play through it from the scene prior the first scene of a chapter. I think this may due to the Lumagen didn’t get enough frame buffer when I skip chapters?
> 
> I didn’t see these type of artifact when I was using JVC DTM or madVR on PC. But, as I mentioned in the JVC thread, the JVC DTM simply does not provide enough dynamic change in the mid-bottom part of EOTF anyway, so it won’t have the problem related to scene/shot detection. MadVR in PC has the advantage to buffer more frames (just my guess), so it can do a better job on scene detection. But madVR has its own issue of saturation error that I don’t like.
> 
> None of these DTM solutions is perfect so far, and I like Lumagen’s DTM the most at this moment, madVR is my second favorite (the PC version), and JVC’s is my least favorite, far behind Lumagen and madVR. I hope and firmly believe all three will keep improving. Consumer like us, at least myself, are very lucky to enjoy it!


I think if you use the controls to skip ahead or back to a different scene, it takes a second for everything to get set correctly. So if you want to view a specific scene, you need to start the movie a scene or two early, so that DTM is working properly by the time it gets to the scene you want to compare.


----------



## EVH78

Ash Sharma said:


> How about Dynamic Dimming ? I was told that Dynamic Dimming messes up Lumagen DTM !!


Dynamic Dimming is best at limited, with full you lose way too much native contrast. I don´t think it messes up the DTM at all.


----------



## fatherom

EVH78 said:


> Dynamic Dimming is best at limited, *with full you lose way too much native contrast*.


Can you elaborate? I use 'full', and this is the first time I've heard of it affecting native contrast.


----------



## EVH78

SJHT said:


> I had mine on 20 and could see artifacts especially with light sky backgrounds. Went away when I turned RC off and only used the Pro. What settings are you using?


It actually depends on the quality and format of the movie since newer movies or formats like UHD discs often tend to have less grain and artefacts. For me the Darbee should not go above 35 while sharpening is 2-3 on with normal sensitivity. That´s my starting point. Then I have different settings on my Sony remote with RC off, 20 and 50.


----------



## Kris Deering

Just wanted to chime in again after some further testing with some thoughts on the sharpening. 

There is a bug with some content near black that will be addressed in an imminent update. So look for that if you're seeing any issues near black with some content (this is rare, so you may never see it). 

I find that setting the level using REALLY sharp content gives me the best results overall. So I try and find the sharpest content I can for both 1080p and 4K, and then fine tune the sharpness to that (I still find 2 to be my preferred setting for both HD and 4K, but I like MINIMAL enhancements anyways) rather than content that is softer by design. If you set it based on softer content, good content will look overcooked IMHO. Obviously having the ability to adjust on the fly is nice for a per title basis. Remember, if you change the setting while watching a specific movie, it won't keep that as your default if you don't do a full system save in the Radiance through a power cycle. So it makes it easy to change when watching something and not having to worry about changing it back if you don't want it to be your new baseline. 

As some have noticed, changing the setting in one input changes all inputs. This is NOT a bug. That is because any input can have an input setting per resolution, but you have to change what input config you are using for each input. If you go input->In Config-> you will see that there are multiple memories per resolution. You can have up to 8 different memories there. So for example, if you wanted your 1080p settings for input 1 to be different than input 2, you can assign 1080-0 to input 1 and 1080-1 to input 2 and they would have different settings now. But any inputs using the same in-config will share the same settings (inputs default to the -0 settings for all resolutions). To assign a config to a specific input, go into input->Input setup and then change the config selection based on the input mode. 

I've also changed my mind on NORM vs HIGH for sensitivity. The HIGH setting still provides a nice bump in perceived image sharpness but does a better job with not emphasizing grain/artifacts/etc. So I will likely leave that by default. NORM still looks really good, but is not as much of a set it and forget it option IMHO. Obviously this is all a "season to taste" type of thing, so I think end users should experiment and find what they like!


----------



## ARROW-AV

EVH78 said:


> Dynamic Dimming is best at limited, with full you lose way too much native contrast. I don´t think it messes up the DTM at all.


Not sure what you mean here? Dynamic dimming does not in fact affect intrascene contrast performance. It neither increases nor decreases it. It is akin to applying an ND filter wherein it reduces the black level luminance but whilst also reducing the white level luminance by the same magnitude. The benefit is that black levels deepen but at the expense of dimming the bright highlights as well.


----------



## Nima

Would that that statement also hold true for dynamic dimming of the Epson laser for instance?


----------



## ARROW-AV

Nima said:


> Would that that statement also hold true for dynamic dimming of the Epson laser for instance?


Yes. It applies to ALL dynamic laser dimming.

Where dynamic laser dimming is useful is with respect to lowering the black floor and increasing the overall luminance dynamic range (ratio of the brightest white versus darkest black across differing frames) but it does not alter intrascene contrast performance (the ratio of the luminance of the brightest part of an image frame versus the luminance of the darkest part of the same image frame). Whilst the black level luminance is lowered the white level luminance is lowered by the same magnitude, hence the intrascene contrast remains exactly the same.

Dynamic irises on the other hand, unlike dynamic laser dimming, DO increase intrascene contrast performance, because when a dynamic iris aperture is closed down the black level luminance decreases more than the white level luminance, thereby resulting in increased contrast performance.

That said, we are veering off topic with respect to this thread... so if you wish to discuss further shoot me a pm 😉


----------



## Vinturbo

I have tried the new firmware and am very impressed with the quality increase it offers! The 1080 to 2160 upscaling received a great performance shift and the sharpness filter is incredibly beautiful! Thanks to LUMAGEN, Jim and the staff who programmed the firmware.


----------



## desertdome

Peule_P said:


> nice piece of kit, any idea of the costs and if it is feasible for an end user to buy?


You can buy direct from Harkwood. I bought my V1 at the beginning of 2015 for $335 USD shipped, but the new V2 is ~$425 USD shipped.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Kris Deering said:


> Or to put it another way HIGH for Sensitivity is actually going to give LESS sharpening at any given setting.


Thanks for this clarification. That makes sense.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> Or to put it another way HIGH for Sensitivity is actually going to give LESS sharpening at any given setting.


Weird. Using the HIGH setting seems to make the it appear as there is more sharpening. At least I like the image better.


----------



## Javs

Craig Peer said:


> A week or two ago I put on the Blu-ray " Kung Fu Hustle " to just watch a little bit, seeing as I hadn't watched it in quite some time. I was going to watch it with some friends. Being an older Blu-ray, it didn't look as good as I remembered - probably due to all of the squeaky clean 4K I've been watching lately. I put it on last night just to see if the new firmware had made any difference. It really has - that movie looks better and sharper / cleaner now, but it's not due to the sharpening feature ( I toggled that on and off to see ). The improvements to scaling have made a difference with older Blu-rays - at least the one I checked so far. There are some substantial upscaling improvements going on in the background - and I'd expect the further pipeline improvements to make things even better. Seeing as I have over 400 Blu-rays, many of which may never see a 4K upgrade, this is excellent !


Good to see you jumping on the upscale train despite your previous comments.


----------



## Craig Peer

Javs said:


> Good to see you jumping on the upscale train despite your previous comments.


The proof is in the pudding. I don't generally watch anything in 480 though - Blu-ray and higher rez only.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Weird. Using the HIGH setting seems to make the it appear as there is more sharpening. At least I like the image better.


The two 4K Blu-rays I watched so far using High looked damn sharp as it is. Even my guests commented on the facial hair and skin texture ( among other things ) being incredibly sharp and life like.


----------



## dgkula

Just installed the new firmware. I just have to say that the lumagen is probably the best investment I have made in my theater. Coming up on my one year anniversary and it has changed 4k HDR content for me forever! Both streaming and UHD BR!


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## ht guy

I installed the last big update without assistance - but it was before I got a calibration.
Will I be able to similarly do this update without changing the calibration settings?


----------



## WCEaglesMan

ht guy said:


> I installed the last big update without assistance - but it was before I got a calibration.
> Will I be able to similarly do this update without changing the calibration settings?


YES !!!


----------



## bearcat2002

dgkula said:


> Just installed the new firmware. I just have to say that the lumagen is probably the best investment I have made in my theater. Coming up on my one year anniversary and it has changed 4k HDR content for me forever! Both streaming and UHD BR!


I totally agree. Being able to toggle demonstrates how amazing this new update is. Sharpness at 3 is perfect with high sensitivity. Who knew you could sharpen up 4K this much. Thank you Lumagen!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlinsley

ht guy said:


> I installed the last big update without assistance - but it was before I got a calibration.
> Will I be able to similarly do this update without changing the calibration settings?


If you haven't already, download the v1.9 configuration tool from Lumagen. Then using that tool, download your current Radiance configuration to your PC, and save it (Onedrive, Google Drive, Dropbox etc for offsite backup). You can now upgrade to the new firmware and can always flash back to the current firmware if something goes wrong - and later restore your configuration if for some reason that got corrupted. However, none of that should be an issue as others already said.


----------



## blake

So is EVERYONE here turning sharpness on even for UHD 4K sources ? I am surprised there are no purists here that take the stand you are altering directors intent by modifying the softness / look of the film ! 

Is sharpness the same as edge enhancement or would that be considered another processing feature ?


----------



## Mark Burton

blake said:


> So is EVERYONE here turning sharpness on even for UHD 4K sources ? I am surprised there are no purists here that take the stand you are altering directors intent by modifying the softness / look of the film !
> 
> Is sharpness the same as edge enhancement or would that be considered another processing feature ?


I’m not sure how much directors intent there is on 4k releases, I think most of them are released with no consultation with the director, some are just good, some not so.


----------



## Mark_H

bjorg said:


> I used the S&M UHD disc to calibrate the delay on my Oppo 203, but it's not consistent across UHD and 480i content (did not compare HD). Also, when switching sources, such as AppleTV, the lip sync is off again by a noticeable amount. Unfortunately, it appears that the receiver (which is hooked up to Output 1 on the Lumagen) and the Lumagen only have a global A/V delay setting and not per-source, per-resolution. It feels like I'm doing it wrong to have this issue.


Welcome to the rabbit-hole that is lipsync. Every source and every audio codec will have different lipsync requirements. You need to measure all the combinations you use and adjust for them... or just try to ignore them!

On the AppleTV even different apps, eg Netflix vs Amazon Prime, have different lipsyncs :/ The simplest thing you can do is try to find a comfortable middle ground for them...


----------



## WCEaglesMan

blake said:


> So is EVERYONE here turning sharpness on even for UHD 4K sources ? I am surprised there are no purists here that take the stand you are altering directors intent by modifying the softness / look of the film !


Perhaps many are thinking ...."to hell with the director's intent". Speaking for myself, I am more focussed on getting a superb image, without looking artificial.


----------



## EVH78

ARROW-AV said:


> Not sure what you mean here? Dynamic dimming does not in fact affect intrascene contrast performance. It neither increases nor decreases it. It is akin to applying an ND filter wherein it reduces the black level luminance but whilst also reducing the white level luminance by the same magnitude. The benefit is that black levels deepen but at the expense of dimming the bright highlights as well.


Thanks for clarification.I will go and measure the contrast next time I will do a calibration with dynamic dimming on. 
I would definitely not recommend setting the dynamic dimming to full though. As you said it´s at the expense of bright highlights (like stars in space etc...)


----------



## MDesigns

EVH78 said:


> Thanks for clarification.I will go and measure the contrast next time I will do a calibration with dynamic dimming on.
> I would definitely not recommend setting the dynamic dimming to full though. As you said it´s at the expense of bright highlights (like stars in space etc...)


You do not calibrate with dynamic dimming on. You calibrate with it off and then turn it on to what level you like. Usage is of course a compromise and depends on what bothers you more, greyer blacks or slightly dimmer stars.


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## EVH78

MDesigns said:


> You do not calibrate with dynamic dimming on. You calibrate with it off and then turn it on to what level you like. Usage is of course a compromise and depends on what bothers you more, greyer blacks or slightly dimmer stars.


I know this, but i can certainly measure the contrast ratio. Personally I cannot let go of the highlights. With limited dimming on the Sony projectors you get the best of both worlds.


----------



## docrog

Mark_H said:


> Welcome to the rabbit-hole that is lipsync. Every source and every audio codec will have different lipsync requirements. You need to measure all the combinations you use and adjust for them... or just try to ignore them!
> 
> On the AppleTV even different apps, eg Netflix vs Amazon Prime, have different lipsyncs :/ The simplest thing you can do is try to find a comfortable middle ground for them...


Is it that difficult to re-adjust lip sync on an "as needed" basis, rather than finding a middle ground which is more than occasionally incorrect? I'm quite sensitive to any degree of mismatch and regularly find the need to tinker. Having easy access to my AVR's GUI for lip sync correction is an important reason for the configuration of my video chain.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Craig Peer said:


> Seeing as I have over 400 Blu-rays, many of which may never see a 4K upgrade, this is excellent !


Yesterday I installed the new firmware and Kris Deering helped me with my settings - I highly recommend his service.
Watched some BD and 4K HDR material from Kaleidescape.
The most impressive part for me was on HD, typically in my Sony VW5000 I would see some banding at times and on 4K very infrequently.
This firmware and settings eliminated that - the picture is clean as a whistle.
Encourage you to watch the opening scene of Revenant in 4K HDR when the family sleeping all the way to the attack on the camp.
Also, Skyfall BD 1080P opening song - looks like 4K HDR to my eyes.
If anyone has been sitting on the fence to buy a Radiance - run don't walk and get one - It has hit prime time.


----------



## jqmn

New f/w looks great. @jrp I believe I had it on Auto 2 and it was converting my streamer from 1080/60 to 4k60 4:2:0 (9Ghz card) which caused tearing on bottom third of picture. Changed to 4k24 output and tearing went away. Anyone else see this?


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> Is it that difficult to re-adjust lip sync on an "as needed" basis, rather than finding a middle ground which is more than occasionally incorrect? I'm quite sensitive to any degree of mismatch and regularly find the need to tinker. Having easy access to my AVR's GUI for lip sync correction is an important reason for the configuration of my video chain.


Like you, I am sensitive to it, and tweak regularly as needed. However, I prefer all sources to the Lumagen first, and do my adjusting within the Radiance Pro.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Ash Sharma said:


> *If anyone has been sitting on the fence to buy a Radiance - run don't walk and get one - It has hit prime time.*


*Ash Sharma,

I did ^^^*

Thanks to Craig Peer.
Oh mine is already shipped and on it's way to it's *Permanent-Home*. ✅
With the New-Firmware ................

Terry


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> So is EVERYONE here turning sharpness on even for UHD 4K sources ? I am surprised there are no purists here that take the stand you are altering directors intent by modifying the softness / look of the film !
> 
> Is sharpness the same as edge enhancement or would that be considered another processing feature ?


Unless you sit down with a director in a mastering studio, and then take him to your home theater so he can see your picture, how do you know what his intent is ( other than not watching it on an iPhone at 60Fps - thank Mr. Nolan ) ?

Most of us exceed the picture and sound quality of the average commercial theater, so if that is their intent, we're way beyond that already.

Watched " Terminator : Dark Fate " on 4K last night. Fun flick, but my guest ( who was just in my theater a few days ago ) instantly said " did you do something to the picture, this looks great ".


----------



## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> Like you, I am sensitive to it, and tweak regularly as needed. However, I prefer all sources to the Lumagen first, and do my adjusting within the Radiance Pro.


Lip sync correction worked much better in the Lumagen. Once Mr. Deering adjusted it, it's been fine for me on all sources.


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## bjorg

Karl Maga said:


> Like you, I am sensitive to it, and tweak regularly as needed. However, I prefer all sources to the Lumagen first, and do my adjusting within the Radiance Pro.


I run it the same way, but the Lumagen doesn't allow for A/V sync adjustment per-resolution and per-source, correct? Or does it?


----------



## Karl Maga

bjorg said:


> I run it the same way, but the Lumagen doesn't allow for A/V sync adjustment per-resolution and per-source, correct? Or does it?


Great question, I simply adjust ad hoc. But, if it does do what you've asked, I'd like to know that!


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> I run it the same way, but the Lumagen doesn't allow for A/V sync adjustment per-resolution and per-source, correct? Or does it?


AV sync is definitely PER SOURCE. It is not per resolution.


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## tibia

Just out of curiosity, in the pro's order of signal processing, does Sharpening come before or after Darbee.


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## Mark_H

docrog said:


> Is it that difficult to re-adjust lip sync on an "as needed" basis, rather than finding a middle ground which is more than occasionally incorrect? I'm quite sensitive to any degree of mismatch and regularly find the need to tinker. Having easy access to my AVR's GUI for lip sync correction is an important reason for the configuration of my video chain.


It's simple if you have the controls. Even though sources are different, they tend to be consistent within themselves (although not always!), so once you get used to what is correct you can quickly adjust as needed.


----------



## Mark_H

Craig Peer said:


> Lip sync correction worked much better in the Lumagen. Once Mr. Deering adjusted it, it's been fine for me on all sources.


The same source will have different lipsyncs depending on the audio codec being used. The simplest way to manage this is with an automation system where you tell it what codec you are using and have it adjust for you. The Lumagen is a per input adjustment so cannot cover multiple audio codecs with one setting. If you do not see issues then you aren't sensitive to it. Be thankful!


----------



## stefanop

I've installed the new firmware and I don't find it so breathtaking. Let me explain: I've got a SONY 5000ES, panels are aligned and phocus is spot on. I don't use Reality Creation with 4K UHD BD but I do with normal BD (just a very little bit). I find the picture pristine and film-like.
With the new firmware I've disabled RC and checked that Darbee still remained disabled. I've tried several values but to my eyes the best are 2-HIGH with UHD and 1-HIGH with BD. The image is crispier at the expense of grain quality and edge enhancement which becomes too harsh, visible and double-edged.
Maybe it's due to the not so high quality of old film reversed in digital media and maybe it's also due to the transparency of the Sony lens which almost reveals all the artifacts.
I can live with harsh grain but not with double edged contours like face or roofs in the sky and so I decided to turn this new control off.
I appreciate the efforts taken by Lumagen developers and I'm sure this feature will become a must have in the future.
It's like DTM, I love DTM of my Radiance now, but it's very different from the first release appeared long ago.


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## audioguy

Sorry you are not seeing the benefits as much as you had hoped for of these new features. I guess we all have different visual sensitivities - and maybe even the definition of "breathtaking". 

We have the JVC RS4500/Panamorph which most certainly does not lack for crispness and clarity, and see none of what you see. We started watching an old 1080P HBO TV Series (The Bible) and with a setting of 3, High and with a very low Darbee setting (45?), the picture was incredible. But comparing that same image with all of the settings bypassed, I would not necessarily call the difference breathtaking but more like "subtle but visually significant". Some of that subtleness may be due to the improved scaling which I assume can not be defeated for comparison purposes. In order to get a "breathtaking" difference, I would need to crank up all of the settings much higher, but then the differences move from "visually significant" to "cartoonish". Also watched some 4K clips from different movies with fairly low settings and I saw the same "subtle but visually significant" differences. Night and Day? No, but now that I have that function, I can not imagine ever not using it. 

Congrats to Lumagen, yet again, for their continuous support and (no cost) upgrades. The recent release and then on-going upgrades of DTM; the features of auto aspect switching, NLS, and now the improved upscaling of lower rez sources and these new setting options, really moves this product from an "incredible piece of equipment" to "absolutely mandatory for any serious home theater". Certainly one of the top very few pieces of AV equipment I have ever purchased in the last 40 plus years (along with the Panamorph Lens and the Trinnov Altitude Processor).


----------



## Mark Burton

audioguy said:


> Sorry you are not seeing the benefits as much as you had hoped for of these new features. I guess we all have different visual sensitivities - and maybe even the definition of "breathtaking".
> 
> We have the JVC RS4500/Panamorph which most certainly does not lack for crispness and clarity, and see none of what you see. We started watching an old 1080P HBO TV Series (The Bible) and with a setting of 3, High and with a very low Darbee setting (45?), the picture was incredible. But comparing that same image with all of the settings bypassed, I would not necessarily call the difference breathtaking but more like "subtle but visually significant". Some of that subtleness may be due to the improved scaling which I assume can not be defeated for comparison purposes. In order to get a "breathtaking" difference, I would need to crank up all of the settings much higher, but then the differences move from "visually significant" to "cartoonish". Also watched some 4K clips from different movies with fairly low settings and I saw the same "subtle but visually significant" differences. Night and Day? No, but now that I have that function, I can not imagine ever not using it.
> 
> Congrats to Lumagen, yet again, for their continuous support and (no cost) upgrades. The recent release and then on-going upgrades of DTM; the features of auto aspect switching, NLS, and now the improved upscaling of lower rez sources and these new setting options, really moves this product from an "incredible piece of equipment" to "absolutely mandatory for any serious home theater". Certainly one of the top very few pieces of AV equipment I have ever purchased in the last 40 plus years (along with the Panamorph Lens and the Trinnov Altitude Processor).


💯% agree


----------



## A7mad78

audioguy said:


> Sorry you are not seeing the benefits as much as you had hoped for of these new features. I guess we all have different visual sensitivities - and maybe even the definition of "breathtaking".
> 
> We have the JVC RS4500/Panamorph which most certainly does not lack for crispness and clarity, and see none of what you see. We started watching an old 1080P HBO TV Series (The Bible) and with a setting of 3, High and with a very low Darbee setting (45?), the picture was incredible. But comparing that same image with all of the settings bypassed, I would not necessarily call the difference breathtaking but more like "subtle but visually significant". Some of that subtleness may be due to the improved scaling which I assume can not be defeated for comparison purposes. In order to get a "breathtaking" difference, I would need to crank up all of the settings much higher, but then the differences move from "visually significant" to "cartoonish". Also watched some 4K clips from different movies with fairly low settings and I saw the same "subtle but visually significant" differences. Night and Day? No, but now that I have that function, I can not imagine ever not using it.
> 
> Congrats to Lumagen, yet again, for their continuous support and (no cost) upgrades. The recent release and then on-going upgrades of DTM; the features of auto aspect switching, NLS, and now the improved upscaling of lower rez sources and these new setting options, really moves this product from an "incredible piece of equipment" to "absolutely mandatory for any serious home theater". Certainly one of the top very few pieces of AV equipment I have ever purchased in the last 40 plus years (along with the Panamorph Lens and the Trinnov Altitude Processor).


100% 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

audioguy said:


> Congrats to Lumagen, yet again, for their continuous support and (no cost) upgrades. The recent release and then on-going upgrades of DTM; the features of auto aspect switching, NLS, and now the *improved upscaling of lower rez sources* and these new setting options, really moves this product from an "incredible piece of equipment" to "absolutely mandatory for any serious home theater". Certainly one of the top very few pieces of AV equipment I have ever purchased in the last 40 plus years (along with the Panamorph Lens and the Trinnov Altitude Processor).


FWIW, as I previously posted regarding 480p source material (yes, I'm aware that this is not relevant to a portion of those following this forum), Lumagen's upscaling appears to lag behind the capabilities of my Sony X800 player (which I doubt represents the top of the line in that capacity). I completely agree with the remainder of your praise for what Lumagen has provided to its customer base.


----------



## Craig Peer

Mark_H said:


> The same source will have different lipsyncs depending on the audio codec being used. The simplest way to manage this is with an automation system where you tell it what codec you are using and have it adjust for you. The Lumagen is a per input adjustment so cannot cover multiple audio codecs with one setting. If you do not see issues then you aren't sensitive to it. Be thankful!


I have never had a lip sync issue in 12 years using 5 different projectors, except with one source with my RS4500. But if I recall correctly, Kris adjusted it on a couple of sources ( I only have 3 ).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Fair enough. In my case, lower resolution is 1080i or 1080P. While I still have maybe 300 DVDs, I literally watch none of them and over time have upgraded to Blu Ray those movies I have interest in re-watching. With a library of about 600 ripped BR + 4K and now streaming movies, I don't have time to watch what I do have access to. 

But I know that there are many who still have DVD collections they choose to watch and for them, there, indeed, may be better alternatives.


----------



## gattorodolfo

Sorry you are not seeing the benefits as much as you had hoped for of these new features. I guess we all have different visual sensitivities - and maybe even the definition of "breathtaking".

We have the JVC RS4500/Panamorph which most certainly does not lack for crispness and clarity, and see none of what you see. We started watching an old 1080P HBO TV Series (The Bible) and with a setting of 3, High and with a very low Darbee setting (45?), the picture was incredible. But comparing that same image with all of the settings bypassed, I would not necessarily call the difference breathtaking but more like "subtle but visually significant". Some of that subtleness may be due to the improved scaling which I assume can not be defeated for comparison purposes. In order to get a "breathtaking" difference, I would need to crank up all of the settings much higher, but then the differences move from "visually significant" to "cartoonish". Also watched some 4K clips from different movies with fairly low settings and I saw the same "subtle but visually significant" differences. Night and Day? No, but now that I have that function, I can not imagine ever not using it.

Congrats to Lumagen, yet again, for their continuous support and (no cost) upgrades. The recent release and then on-going upgrades of DTM; the features of auto aspect switching, NLS, and now the improved upscaling of lower rez sources and these new setting options, really moves this product from an "incredible piece of equipment" to "absolutely mandatory for any serious home theater". Certainly one of the top very few pieces of AV equipment I have ever purchased in the last 40 plus years (along with the Panamorph Lens and the Trinnov Altitude Processor).


fantastic after-sales service.
I agree 100%


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> Fair enough. In my case, lower resolution is 1080i or 1080P. While I still have maybe 300 DVDs, I literally watch none of them and over time have upgraded to Blu Ray those movies I have interest in re-watching. With a library of about 600 ripped BR + 4K and now streaming movies, I don't have time to watch what I do have access to.
> 
> But I know that there are many who still have DVD collections they choose to watch and for them, there, indeed, may be better alternatives.


Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but there are MANY excellent movies and TV shows in my large collection which are not (and, likely, never will be) released in HD or UHD. The pandemic has meant that fewer new movie releases will be available for the foreseeable future and there will probably delays in the fall schedules from Showtime, AMC, etc. We just finished re-watching DVDs of HBO's "In Treatment", "The Mind of the Married Man" and "Dream On", "Hill Street Blues" as well as episodes of "The West Wing", "Mad About You", etc. all of which (IMVHO) are equal to or better than the vast majority of new made for streaming HD/UHD content on Netflix & Amazon (we've already finished watching all available content of our favorite series from those sources). Although I certainly would prefer to never again watch one minute of soft SD content, it's just not realistic, so I do hope that Lumagen will eventually provide its 'magic sauce' to 480p.....


----------



## tigerhonaker

docrog said:


> Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but there are MANY excellent movies and TV shows in my large collection which are not (and, likely, never will be) released in HD or UHD. The pandemic has meant that fewer new movie releases will be available for the foreseeable future and there will probably delays in the fall schedules from Showtime, AMC, etc. We just finished re-watching DVDs of HBO's "In Treatment", "The Mind of the Married Man" and "Dream On", "Hill Street Blues" as well as episodes of "The West Wing", "Mad About You", etc. all of which (IMVHO) are equal to or better than the vast majority of new made for streaming HD/UHD content on Netflix & Amazon (we've already finished watching all available content of our favorite series from those sources). Although I certainly would prefer to never again watch one minute of soft SD content, it's just not realistic, so I do hope that Lumagen will eventually provide its 'magic sauce' to 480p.....


Let me make sure I'm totally understanding what you said ^^^

The Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 makes No change/changes at all to 480P DVD's or content ???

Just making sure I'm following this.

So where does the Lumagen Pro start improving the content ???
*Be "Exact" ...........*

Terry


----------



## ShaharT

Can someone please refer me to a guide on Dpad, Ratio (high & low), Shape (high & low), Tran (high & low), Desat, under HDR settings? How would one go about optimizing them? As well as what's the formula for determining MaxLight? Is the screen size taken into account, or is it the nits alone (by proxy, they take into account the screen size, I guess) that I measure from Calman/Colourspace (in my case, it says it's 50 nits, is that a reasonable number)?

I saw old posts, but there were changes between f/w versions, it seems. Randomly playing with these settings got me nowhere. My understanding is that they are all important. 

I have just finished a calibration session following JRP past post on using SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1, so a single 'mode' is used on my Sony 995. I'm blown away by both the SDR and HDR results (used a CR300 and a CR100 probe).

However, being ever curious and wishing to extract any possible extra bit of visual beauty, I would love to understand what these parameters do and determine using them. If this is already in a guide format somewhere, I would be extremely thankful for pointing me there. And if it's only pieced together via different posts, maybe one authoritative description will do good for others as well.

TIA!


----------



## docrog

What I've implied is that (in my A-B comparison) the Sony X800 UHD player appears to do a better job of upscaling 480p material to 1080p than the Radiance Pro, even with the newest firmware enhancements. The Radiance Pro certainly is far more impressive in upscaling 1080p (HD) Blu Ray content to UHD than the X800. In all probability, I'll add an additional streaming device strictly for 1080p content since I would expect the Lumagen to be better at upscaling that content than my Roku Ultra or Apple 4KTV (and I don't want to have to go into the settings menu to switch output resolution on those devices each time I'm aware that the native resolution of the content changes); the X800 will always output 1080p streaming content at UHD since 4K upscaling can only be defeated for Blu Rays if it "sees" the EDID of a UHD capable display (NX7).


----------



## tigerhonaker

tigerhonaker said:


> Let me make sure I'm totally understanding what you said ^^^
> 
> The Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 makes No change/changes at all to 480P DVD's or content ???
> 
> Just making sure I'm following this.
> 
> So where does the Lumagen Pro start improving the content ???
> *Be "Exact" ...........*
> 
> Terry





docrog said:


> *What I've implied is that (in my A-B comparison) the Sony X800 UHD player appears to do a better job of upscaling 480p material to 1080p than the Radiance Pro, even with the newest firmware enhancements.*
> 
> The Radiance Pro certainly is far more impressive in upscaling 1080p (HD) Blu Ray content to UHD than the X800. In all probability, I'll add an additional streaming device strictly for 1080p content since I would expect the Lumagen to be better at upscaling that content than my Roku Ultra or Apple 4KTV (and I don't want to have to go into the settings menu to switch output resolution on those devices each time I'm aware that the native resolution of the content changes); the X800 will always output 1080p streaming content at UHD since 4K upscaling can only be defeated for Blu Rays if it "sees" the EDID of a UHD capable display (NX7).


Now I see what your talking about *^^^*.
Thanks ............

Terry


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Fair enough. In my case, lower resolution is 1080i or 1080P. While I still have maybe 300 DVDs, I literally watch none of them and over time have upgraded to Blu Ray those movies I have interest in re-watching. With a library of about 600 ripped BR + 4K and now streaming movies, I don't have time to watch what I do have access to.
> 
> But I know that there are many who still have DVD collections they choose to watch and for them, there, indeed, may be better alternatives.


I've upgraded all of my DVD's ( and HD DVD's ) to Blu-ray. And whenever a film I really like comes out on 4K, I'm upgrading to that. I can't watch DVD's anymore. Not at less than 1 screen width viewing distance on a 4K projector. I don't have enough time to even watch all of the 4K Blu-rays I bought - yet ( nice having a backlog of content ) !


----------



## Peule_P

Craig Peer said:


> I've upgraded all of my DVD's ( and HD DVD's ) to Blu-ray. And whenever a film I really like comes out on 4K, I'm upgrading to that. I can't watch DVD's anymore. Not at less than 1 screen width viewing distance on a 4K projector. I don't have enough time to even watch all of the 4K Blu-rays I bought - yet ( nice having a backlog of content ) !


and yet here I’m still watching Laserdiscs of True Lies and The Abyss


----------



## giomania

ShaharT said:


> Can someone please refer me to a guide on Dpad, Ratio (high & low), Shape (high & low), Tran (high & low), Desat, under HDR settings? How would one go about optimizing them? As well as what's the formula for determining MaxLight? Is the screen size taken into account, or is it the nits alone (by proxy, they take into account the screen size, I guess) that I measure from Calman/Colourspace (in my case, it says it's 50 nits, is that a reasonable number)?
> 
> I saw old posts, but there were changes between f/w versions, it seems. Randomly playing with these settings got me nowhere. My understanding is that they are all important.
> 
> I have just finished a calibration session following JRP past post on using SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1, so a single 'mode' is used on my Sony 995. I'm blown away by both the SDR and HDR results (used a CR300 and a CR100 probe).
> 
> However, being ever curious and wishing to extract any possible extra bit of visual beauty, I would love to understand what these parameters do and determine using them. If this is already in a guide format somewhere, I would be extremely thankful for pointing me there. And if it's only pieced together via different posts, maybe one authoritative description will do good for others as well.
> 
> TIA!


See the link in my signature. I know it’s a long document but the information is in there and you can search for it.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Craig Peer

Peule_P said:


> and yet here I’m still watching Laserdiscs of True Lies and The Abyss


I never owned Laserdisc. I was busy being a big wall climber when Laserdisc came out. I didn't even know about home theater then. 

I don't have True Lies or The Abyss - I'll just muddle along with my 730 other films while I wait for those to appear remastered on 4K.


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> I have been away from AVS for a while. We are about to do another release that has significant improvement for DTM. So time for me to check in.
> 
> This release improves the "Adaptive" part of DTM (call it ADTM). We had some "pumping" issues with ADTM that are now resolved. There are also a number of other improvements. Some apply to many scenes and some are more specific to a small class of scene types. I have been surprised at how Patrick has been able to continue to improve on the already excellent scene detection, and scene adaptive function (the ADTM). I think you will be excited by the improvements.
> 
> We have also had a few people (more than a few?) messing about with the DTM parameters and getting themselves in a bad state. So, this release will also have a simplified DTM user interface in "User Mode." If you insist on more "rope," the current interface will still be available in Service Mode. Just be aware that we believe the defaults are the best settings and changes you make to parameters not shown in User Mode will likely degrade the image rather than improve it.
> 
> We are simplifying the DTM parameter menu in User Mode. The DTM parameter menu (left arrow) will be:
> 
> Low Ratio: 0 to 63 (Default = 31)
> DynPad: 0 to 7 (Default = 3)
> DeSat: 0 to 15 (default = 4)
> Global Max Light: 100 to 9990 (default = 500)
> 
> You need to set the Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu (or it is now shown in the DTM parameter menu as Global Max Light). I am recommending five (5) times the measured light in nits. This multiple is a trade off between brighter scenes (lower Max Light), and color saturation (higher Max Light). I am considering more testing using a multiple of four (4) times measured maximum light, but not there yet. Also, I have talked to some who prefer a multiple of 3 to 4. This is a personal choice and can also depend on if you have a lower light output projector and want a brighter image.
> 
> Note that if you have values other than the above defaults in your unit, they will not be changed by the update. You would need to reset the HDR parameters (each input and input memory or change one and copy to the others. Then do a Save).
> 
> Some have asked why the Max Light is not set to 1X measured light in nits. The "1X measured light" setting is in the mix, but for "dark scenes" as it needs to be. We will show the effective Low Light Max in this menu. You can look a the "effective Max Light" (adjusted by Low Ratio) and adjust until it is about 1X measured light (or your preferred multiple for low light scenes).
> 
> Note that, as shown, the new default for "Low Ratio" is 31 (currently 15). Using 15 still works well, but with the improvements in the DTM we are seeing that you can raise this value (reducing the dark scene effective max light and raising brightness) without seeing clipping. Setting the Low-set ratio to 31 will result in roughly “1X” measured light (assuming Max Light is in the 5x range) for dark scenes. We have exended the Low Ratio range. It was -31 to 31, and now is 0 to 63. We eliminated negative numbers as they do not make sense to use, but were still showing up in some questions I received.
> 
> We are also changing the default DynPad to 3 (currently 6). Again this is because the improvement allow a brighter image without showing clipping. With a setting of 3 we do not expect there to be visible clipping. However, even a settings of 2, or 1, may have few scenes where there might be a bit of clipping of highlights. However the overall image will be brighter. I am currently using DynPad = 3 but experimenting with settings of 1 and 2. So you might want to try 1, 2, and 3 for DynPad to see which you prefer.
> 
> DeSat (de-saturation) has not changed. We left it in for User Mode since some like to have a different setting for this.
> 
> Note: The ADTM parameters are per-input and per-input-memory, except for "Global Max Light." It is "global" to all inputs and input memories that use the currently active CMS (which is typically CMS1 for HDR). For example if the current CMS for HDR is CMS1, this Global Max Light is the same value as CMS1->HDR Mapping->HDR Mapping->Max Light.
> 
> Note: If you want the settings (excepting Max Light) to apply to other inputs or input memories, use the "Input Copy" command to copy to the other inputs and/or memories. As always, make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.
> 
> There are a few other additions to the user interface. For example you can now program the right arrow to bring up test patterns rather than the Darbee menu, or program the up/down arrows to step through Input Aspect Ratio selections. This release fixes an issue using NLS with "Auto Aspect" that was recently reported.
> 
> These improvements should be in a release in the next day or two.


Is this still the way to go? What I understand is:

1) Not be in the service-mode menu, so I get fewer knobs to turn. That's always the safer option.

2), Set the global MaxLight as 5X or 6X the measured nits.

Measured nits = what Calman tells me the Nits are. I'm not sure if what it is telling me is the nits or lumens. It shows a Y measurement and calls it 'Luminance' on the top of the page. And my result post-calibration is 50. How does one measure the nits to know the starting point for this formula, using Calman and a probe?

3) Set LowRatio, so the effective max light = 2x measured nits. This lore is from another post I found posted after the one I'm quoting.

Therefore, in my specific case - I get 50 from Calman on the Y/Lumenince test (post-calibration) with the probe in my sitting position pointed to the screen center. I could be totally not getting it right, and these are lumens and not nits? Or I should be measuring the projector and not the screen?

4) So MaxLight should be 50 (which is the number I got from Calman) *6 = 300.

5) LowRatio should be 27, which then shows on the screen that the effective max light is 105 (close to 2x the measurement). 

Oh and Dynpad - the above old post says it should be 3, but I read in other posts it should actually be 1. Which is it?

Could these settings be made, please, more complicated? Sorry, couldn't resist saying that 
I love this product, it is really incredible. The ADTM settings are the only part that confuses the *** out of me.


----------



## Nima

Are the MaxLight settings and "Arrow Left" menu and CMS--> HDR Mapping the same ones?


----------



## RS3771

I got a brand new Radiance Pro unit yesterday as a replacement to my previous one gone bad (FPGA failure). All my calibration settings have been loaded onto this one. I've got four 18 GHz inputs and two 9 GHz inputs. I have the Strato, Oppo and the Apple TV 4K (only three inputs). I get phenomenal output from Oppo and Apple TV 4K but struggling to get a decent image from the Strato. I'm getting a super-low resolution image (connected to 18 GHz input on the Radiance Pro) and output connected to Sony 5000ES. With my previous Radiance Pro (earlier model), I was using the 9 GHz input since the Strato struggled to connect with the 18 GHz input but not sure on this one. I've tried all four 18 GHz inputs and two 9 GHz inputs and I'm getting a real crappy image.

Could some one please advise on what settings I should be checking/adjusting, etc.?

Also, with this brand new Radiance Pro unit, the audio seems to have gotten a significant boost - which I hear is expected due to less jitter and I've heard some other reasons.


----------



## bjorg

ShaharT said:


> Could these settings be made, please, more complicated? Sorry, couldn't resist saying that
> I love this product, it is really incredible. The ADTM settings are the only part that confuses the *** out of me.


You and me! I wish there was a community editable version of the manual so we could crowdsource the latest findings. There is an unofficial Word doc as well, which is great, but cannot be contributed to, as far as I know.


----------



## Roland Janus

*Sony 5000, 3D and Paladin DCR Lens*

I figured today that I still like 3D (using Full SBS, switching the Radiance manually to 3D which then puts the Projector in 3D mode),
But for 3D, the output to the projector has to be 1080p but with the fixed lens in place, the ratio is of course wrong, squeezing the picture resulting in bars.

I can't figure out how to avoid that, it at all possible.
Is there any way to get 1080p 3D working properly with the lens in place?


----------



## Kris Deering

New update just posted on Lumagen's website. Fix for some small bugs that were reported and a bit better FPGA build.


----------



## Surge2018

Can someone set me straight on the best Apple TV 4K settings into the Radiance Pro?
I currently have it set to 4K SDR, Gamma 4:4:4
For 1080P content, I change it manually to output 1080P SDR, otherwise the Apple TV will upscale.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> New update just posted on Lumagen's website. Fix for some small bugs that were reported and a bit better FPGA build.


Kris, if I haven't noticed any "bad pixels" at the bottom of my screen when the sharpness enhancement is enabled (and I don't intend to do a factory reset) is there any reason to flash this new update? I have to physically remove the Lumagen from my HT and carry it downstairs to my PC to perform the firmware update.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Kris, if I haven't noticed any "bad pixels" at the bottom of my screen when the sharpness enhancement is enabled (and I don't intend to do a factory reset) is there any reason to flash this new update? I have to physically remove the Lumagen from my HT and carry it downstairs to my PC to perform the firmware update.


I would suggest doing it. It eliminates some issues with noise that may cause issues with near black levels. Also a few other bugs. You don't need to do a factory reset, it is just for folks that have never had work done on their Lumagen to get them some base settings for the new feature to start with.


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## bjorg

Smart move on adjusting the default settings. Folks should get a good impression out-of-the-box and then tweak to their liking. I think these new settings strike that balance. I can't imagine anyone feeling it would overcook the picture by default.


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> *Sony 5000, 3D and Paladin DCR Lens*
> 
> I figured today that I still like 3D (using Full SBS, switching the Radiance manually to 3D which then puts the Projector in 3D mode),
> But for 3D, the output to the projector has to be 1080p but with the fixed lens in place, the ratio is of course wrong, squeezing the picture resulting in bars.
> 
> I can't figure out how to avoid that, it at all possible.
> Is there any way to get 1080p 3D working properly with the lens in place?


The output settings for 3D use different entries in the Output Setup. Look at the MENU -> Output -> Output Setup -> 3D menu. In addition, the 3D could be using different input settings.

The Style that is used for 3D, should have an output aspect ratio the same as that used for 2D (assuming 2D is correct). The source device should be set to "16:9 TV" but if 2D looks good then it already is.

When watching the 3D 2.35 aspect source, did you press the 2.35 button?

I have not heard of aspect ratio issues with 3D. Once you have loaded the latest release on your unit and tested it, feel free to call us at 503-574-2211 Option 2 for support. I believe we can help you get 3D content aspect ratios correct.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> I would suggest doing it. It eliminates some issues with noise that may cause issues with near black levels. Also a few other bugs. You don't need to do a factory reset, it is just for folks that have never had work done on their Lumagen to get them some base settings for the new feature to start with.


OK, then. Thanks, as always.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> I have not heard of aspect ratio issues with 3D.


Really? 

I had to configure my display to NOT detect the aspect-ratio as it would jump to 4:3 and squeeze everything. However, my display is a passive 3D LG TV.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> Are the MaxLight settings and "Arrow Left" menu and CMS--> HDR Mapping the same ones?


The Max Light in the Left-Arrow menu is the same as the Max Light in the active CMS being used for HDR. We put this "backdoor" way to adjust the active CMS Max Light so people can easily adjust it while watching content.


----------



## bjorg

docrog said:


> FWIW, as I previously posted regarding 480p source material (yes, I'm aware that this is not relevant to a portion of those following this forum), Lumagen's upscaling appears to lag behind the capabilities of my Sony X800 player (which I doubt represents the top of the line in that capacity). I completely agree with the remainder of your praise for what Lumagen has provided to its customer base.


I'm surprised to hear that. I make an effort to play all 480i material through the Radiance Pro using the Oppo 203 in source direct mode, because the de-interlacing is absolutely perfect. With some sharpness and Darbee assist, it's extremely enjoyable. I recently completed watching _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_ and now I'm going through _Stargate SG-1_. Of course, I wish these shows would have been released somehow in a high resolution format, but I'm happy to be able to enjoy them despite of it. That said, I have not dared re-watching _Babylon 5_ yet. As I recall, that was a pixel dance fest even on SD!!!


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> Really?
> 
> I had to configure my display to NOT detect the aspect-ratio as it would jump to 4:3 and squeeze everything. However, my display is a passive 3D LG TV.


Okay, now one report for aspect for 3D. 

However, if I read your report correctly this is an issue with the TV and not an issue with the Radiance Pro 3D aspect ratio.

If you have the Radiance Pro "Auto Aspect" enabled for 3D, your comment did make me recall a now fixed bug where the "auto aspect" for 3D did not work correctly in some cases. I believe auto-aspect now works for 3D. Of course let us know if you have issues with 3D auto-aspect or not.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> The output settings for 3D use different entries in the Output Setup. Look at the MENU -> Output -> Output Setup -> 3D menu. In addition, the 3D could be using different input settings.
> 
> The Style that is used for 3D, should have an output aspect ratio the same as that used for 2D (assuming 2D is correct). The source device should be set to "16:9 TV" but if 2D looks good then it already is.
> 
> When watching the 3D 2.35 aspect source, did you press the 2.35 button?
> 
> I havte not heard of aspect ratio issues with 3D. Once you have loaded the latest release on your unit and tested it, feel free to call us at 503-574-2211 Option 2 for support. I believe we can help you get 3D content aspect ratios correct.


thanks Jim, I'll check that. 

But what I don't understand:
3D requires 1920x1080, but for all 2D 4096x2160p is send, because of the lens and not 3840x2160.
Does that not mean it's distorted by design?


----------



## docrog

bjorg said:


> I'm surprised to hear that. I make an effort to play all 480i material through the Radiance Pro using the Oppo 203 in source direct mode, because the de-interlacing is absolutely perfect. With some sharpness and Darbee assist, it's extremely enjoyable. I recently completed watching _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_ and now I'm going through _Stargate SG-1_. Of course, I wish these shows would have been released somehow in a high resolution format, but I'm happy to be able to enjoy them despite of it. That said, I have not dared re-watching _Babylon 5_ yet. As I recall, that was a pixel dance fest even on SD!!!


The Radiance Pro indicated that the input resolution for "The Abyss" was at 480p, not 480i, from my Sony X800 despite the fact that the X800 was set to output at original ("native") resolution. So, in my case, it appears that further deinterlacing by the Lumagen is unnecessary.


----------



## jrp

Here are my current recommendations for HDR settings.

First note that the older recommended settings still work well, but the improvements in Radiance Pro DTM have allowed us to recommend more aggressive settings, which result in brighter images.

Max Light: For projectors in the 80 to 150 nits range set Max Light to 4 to 5 times the light output in nits. For our Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS-4500's, on our 14 foot Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, we get 78 nits and I have Max Light set to 400 (so about 4.5x). For TVs around 600 to 1000 nits, I recommend max light at 1.5 times light output in nits. For TVs around 1500 nits and higher I recommend Max Light of 1x light output in nits. If you do not have a light meter, I recommend using "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45 (people on and around an overturned boat) to use while adjusting Max Light. This is an extremely bright scene and I find it works well. Adjust Max Light, trading off scene brightness and proper color saturation.

Low Ratio: The default of 31 is generally a good setting. You can adjust so the "Dark Scene Max Light" reported while adjusting this parameter is in the range of 1x to 2x the measured light in nits. I am currently using abut 1.25x, but have also been experimenting with 1x and 1.5x. For example, if you have, say a maximum light output of 100 nits, and you have the Low Ratio set so the dark scene max light is around 100 nits, then scenes at 100 nits and less would be reproduced nit-for-nit (approximately).

Dyn Pad: We recommend 2, since the scene adaptation now can adjust for reasonable lighting changes within each scene. However, if you notice some scenes clipping you should consider raising the CMS Max Light, and perhaps increasing the Dyn Pad. The value of 2 for scenes with significant lighting changes may in some cases show a slight amount of visible clipping. Kris Deering and I spent hours on the phone one day recently looking at many scenes on our respective screens trying to decide the best Dyn Pad default setting. We ended up deciding on 2. One Radiance Pro owner I was recently helping (who had a lot of light output) ended up liking Dyn Pad = 5 (as I recall). If Dyn Pad = 5 gives you enough light for your personal preference, then I do not see a downside to the higher value (since the downside is not-as-bright scenes), and it should pretty much eliminate visible clipping even in scenes with significant lighting changes.

DeSat: The current default is "Auto." The dynamic desaturation processing in the DTM is now much better since it is now based on the scene MaxCLL. For the "Auto" setting extremely bright objects (e.g. a lightning strike) desaturate to some degree but other bright saturated objects (e.g. truck exploding at 28:29 in Max Max: Fury Road) are not desaturated (at least not much). If you prefer to desaturate the explosion in the Mad Max scene, then a setting of "Med" might be preferable. Or split the difference and use "Low."


----------



## Jue Liang

Mike Garrett said:


> I think if you use the controls to skip ahead or back to a different scene, it takes a second for everything to get set correctly. So if you want to view a specific scene, you need to start the movie a scene or two early, so that DTM is working properly by the time it gets to the scene you want to compare.


Sometime it takes an entire shot/scene to have DTM back to normal, for example, skipping to the second chapter of infinity war. I also found that using Oppo would have more significant difference between “skipping to”and “playing through” than using Panasonic or Xbox one x.

I guess the scene detection algorithm of Lumagen is playing an important role here. For an external processor, only buffering a couple of frames for scene detection, it’s impossible to predict the MaxCLL/APL of the entire coming scene, thus very challenging to find a balance between clipping and brightness fluctuation within a single scene. If the DTM/scene detection was tuned to be too sensitive then we will see a lot brightness fluctuations. If it was tuned to avoid brightness fluctuations, then we will see more clipping of highlights later in the scene. The way to minimize both is to reserve more head room for tone mapping, and that is what the Dpad supposed to do. After two more days of testing, I found that setting Dpad to 1 (low ratio 31, max light 600) resulted in a lot of both clipping and brightness fluctuations. Setting Dpad to higher values can reduce both types of artifacts. Setting Dpad to 7 completely eliminated these types of artifacts, but at the cost of overall brightness/dynamic range. MadVR on PC does a much better job in this aspect, I don’t know if this is because it is a PC software thus can use much more data/frames from the RAM than just a couple frames.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Here are my current recommendations for HDR settings.
> 
> First note that the older recommended settings still work well, but the improvements in Radiance Pro DTM have allowed us to recommend more aggressive settings, which result in brighter images.
> 
> Max Light: For projectors in the 80 to 150 nits range set Max Light to 4 to 5 times the light output in nits. For our Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS-4500's, on our 14 foot Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, we get 78 nits and I have Max Light set to 400 (so about 4.5x). For TVs around 600 to 1000 nits, I recommend max light at 1.5 times light output in nits. For TVs around 1500 nits and higher I recommend Max Light of 1x light output in nits. If you do not have a light meter, I recommend using "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45 (people on and around an overturned boat) to use while adjusting Max Light. This is an extremely bright scene and I find it works well. Adjust Max Light, trading off scene brightness and proper color saturation.
> 
> Low Ratio: The default of 31 is generally a good setting. You can adjust so the "Dark Scene Max Light" reported while adjusting this parameter is in the range of 1x to 2x the measured light in nits. I am currently using abut 1.25x, but have also been experimenting with 1x and 1.5x. For example, if you have, say a maximum light output of 100 nits, and you have the Low Ratio set so the dark scene max light is around 100 nits, then scenes at 100 nits and less would be reproduced nit-for-nit (approximately).
> 
> Dyn Pad: We recommend 2, since the scene adaptation now can adjust for reasonable lighting changes within each scene. However, if you notice some scenes clipping you should consider raising the CMS Max Light, and perhaps increasing the Dyn Pad. The value of 2 for scenes with significant lighting changes may in some cases show a slight amount of visible clipping. Kris Deering and I spent hours on the phone one day recently looking at many scenes on our respective screens trying to decide the best Dyn Pad default setting. We ended up deciding on 2. One Radiance Pro owner I was recently helping (who had a lot of light output) ended up liking Dyn Pad = 5 (as I recall). If Dyn Pad = 5 gives you enough light for your personal preference, then I do not see a downside to the higher value (since the downside is not-as-bright scenes), and it should pretty much eliminate visible clipping even in scenes with significant lighting changes.
> 
> DeSat: The current default is "Auto." The dynamic desaturation processing in the DTM is now much better since it is now based on the scene MaxCLL. For the "Auto" setting extremely bright objects (e.g. a lightning strike) desaturate to some degree but other bright saturated objects (e.g. truck exploding at 28:29 in Max Max: Fury Road) are not desaturated (at least not much). If you prefer to desaturate the explosion in the Mad Max scene, then a setting of "Med" might be preferable. Or split the difference and use "Low."


Jim, you posted only seconds before my post about my findings of Dpad setting. Some time if pause at a frame with clipped highlights, change any one of the DTM settings, the highlight detail will come back, then even I change the setting back to what it was, the highlight details will still be there. So I guess changing DTM settings at a paused frame would make this frame disconnected from the frames before it, and DTM will optimize only for this specific frame.


----------



## dlinsley

Roland Janus said:


> *Sony 5000, 3D and Paladin DCR Lens*
> 
> I figured today that I still like 3D (using Full SBS, switching the Radiance manually to 3D which then puts the Projector in 3D mode),
> But for 3D, the output to the projector has to be 1080p but with the fixed lens in place, the ratio is of course wrong, squeezing the picture resulting in bars.
> 
> I can't figure out how to avoid that, it at all possible.
> Is there any way to get 1080p 3D working properly with the lens in place?


It has been a while since I played with it, but with my JVC RS3000 I was finding that with the DCR in place I needed to change my aspect ratio setting for 3D from 2.37:1 to 2.22:1. That accounted for the JVC scaling the 1920x1080 to 3840x2160 instead of the whole 4096 wide being used. I think I lost a couple of lines of real content pixels on top/bottom, but the overall aspect was now correct. The JVC won't scale 3D with Anamorphic C mode to fill the 4096 either, otherwise I would have manual switched in the JVC and had the Lumagen at 16:9 aspect for 3D. JVC said their FPGA didn't have the capacity to correctly scale 3D.


----------



## jrp

Comments on scaling:


Roland Janus said:


> thanks Jim, I'll check that.
> 
> But what I don't understand:
> 3D requires 1920x1080, but for all 2D 4096x2160p is send, because of the lens and not 3840x2160.
> Does that not mean it's distorted by design?


You set the output aspect for 2D and 3D the same way. Source for HD (2D and 3D) and UHD is in a 16:9 raster (even if 2.35 or 2.40). So, it makes no difference whether the source is 2D, 3D, or 4k, the Radiance Pro output aspect setup is the same. Without going into painful detail I can say it all works correctly (when set up correctly of course).


----------



## SJHT

Ash Sharma said:


> Yesterday I installed the new firmware and Kris Deering helped me with my settings - I highly recommend his service.


Amen. Sent my Lumagen Pro config to Kris who did my calibration with my Sony 995. He updated with the best settings for all of my 7 sources based upon recent firmware and I will upload to my Pro tomorrow. SJ


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang said:


> Jim, you posted only seconds before my post about my findings of Dpad setting. Some time if pause at a frame with clipped highlights, change any one of the DTM settings, the highlight detail will come back, then even I change the setting back to what it was, the highlight details will still be there. So I guess changing DTM settings at a paused frame would make this frame disconnected from the frames before it, and DTM will optimize only for this specific frame.


While paused the "scene adaptation" is still running. So, you will potentially see changes on a paused frame. While harder to judge I think it is best to analyze with video playing.

Note: There are several scenes of history kept by the Radiance Pro DTM. Changing any HDR parameter restarts the DTM, including discarding the history. If you chapter skip forward I suggest scanning backward to at least the previous scene before doing any analysis. Same holds if you make a change to a DTM parameter. Nature of the beast.


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> Jim, you posted only seconds before my post about my findings of Dpad setting. Some time if pause at a frame with clipped highlights, change any one of the DTM settings, the highlight detail will come back, then even I change the setting back to what it was, the highlight details will still be there. So I guess changing DTM settings at a paused frame would make this frame disconnected from the frames before it, and DTM will optimize only for this specific frame.


You can't evaluate the DTM with a chapter skip, you need to let the content play. It is not designed to work perfectly in a chapter skip situation. Also, the second you change a variable in the DTM, it starts the whole process over again from that point. This is why people think it looks brighter or has more punch, it is because it has undone everything that came before it and treats it as a whole scene change for that specific frame. This is not the way it is designed to work, it is designed to work like video is designed to be watched, continuously. Yes there is always a chance of a stray flicker or even some mild clipping (and that should be EXTREMELY rare if setup properly), but that is the nature of a dynamic system. If it was perfect all the time, it wouldn't be dynamic. The goal is to get it where any anomaly is extremely rare in normal viewing, and I think they've MORE than achieved that. 

But as always, if something bothers you in NORMAL VIEWING (not pausing and changing and pausing and changing) by all means let Lumagen know so they can look at it and see if it is something that can be fixed. 

Not directed at you, but I am always scratching my head as to why so many people on this forum complain about things that they see and say are a bug yet never report it to Lumagen. You can see from the massive amounts of updates they do that they are obviously responsive to people's feedback.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> While paused the "scene adaptation" is still running. So, you will potentially see changes on a paused frame. While harder to judge I think it is best to analyze with video playing.
> 
> Note: There are several scenes of history kept by the Radiance Pro DTM. Changing any HDR parameter restarts the DTM, including discarding the history. If you chapter skip forward I suggest scanning backward to at least the previous scene before doing any analysis. Same holds if you make a change to a DTM parameter. Nature of the beast.





Kris Deering said:


> You can't evaluate the DTM with a chapter skip, you need to let the content play. It is not designed to work perfectly in a chapter skip situation. Also, the second you change a variable in the DTM, it starts the whole process over again from that point. This is why people think it looks brighter or has more punch, it is because it has undone everything that came before it and treats it as a whole scene change for that specific frame. This is not the way it is designed to work, it is designed to work like video is designed to be watched, continuously. Yes there is always a chance of a stray flicker or even some mild clipping (and that should be EXTREMELY rare if setup properly), but that is the nature of a dynamic system. If it was perfect all the time, it wouldn't be dynamic. The goal is to get it where any anomaly is extremely rare in normal viewing, and I think they've MORE than achieved that.
> 
> But as always, if something bothers you in NORMAL VIEWING (not pausing and changing and pausing and changing) by all means let Lumagen know so they can look at it and see if it is something that can be fixed.
> 
> Not directed at you, but I am always scratching my head as to why so many people on this forum complain about things that they see and say are a bug yet never report it to Lumagen. You can see from the massive amounts of updates they do that they are obviously responsive to people's feedback.


Hi Jim and Kris,
Yes, that’s exactly what I thought based my observation, changing any parameters would discard the scene history and restart the DTM. FWIW, I am currently using Dpad 2, low ratio 30, max light 600, my measured brightness is 150 nits.

Are you suggesting talking to Lumagen directly is a better way to report than posting it here? I am definitely more than happy to contact Lumagen (by making an appointment with Jim?) to share more details about my findings. One of the most important reasons that I bought a Lumagen is that I fully trust their responsiveness to customer’s feedback.


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim and Kris,
> Yes, that’s exactly what I thought based my observation, changing any parameters would discard the scene history and restart the DTM. FWIW, I am currently using Dpad 2, low ratio 30, max light 600, my measured brightness is 150 nits.
> 
> Are you suggesting talking to Lumagen directly is a better way to report than posting it here? I am definitely more than happy to contact Lumagen (by making an appointment with Jim?) to share more details about my findings. One of the most important reasons that I bought a Lumagen is that I fully trust their responsiveness to customer’s feedback.


If you have a problem report it. That is what I mean.


----------



## MOberhardt

Roland Janus said:


> *Sony 5000, 3D and Paladin DCR Lens*
> 
> I figured today that I still like 3D (using Full SBS, switching the Radiance manually to 3D which then puts the Projector in 3D mode),
> But for 3D, the output to the projector has to be 1080p but with the fixed lens in place, the ratio is of course wrong, squeezing the picture resulting in bars.
> 
> I can't figure out how to avoid that, it at all possible.
> Is there any way to get 1080p 3D working properly with the lens in place?


Is that an issue with frame packed 3d? Eg real 3d Blu Rays? All my 3d is Blu Ray.


----------



## ShaharT

What's the way to measure peak nits? Assuming one has a Spectroradiometer / Spectrophotometer and a Colorimeter / Photometer?


----------



## stefanop

Peule_P said:


> and yet here I’m still watching Laserdiscs of True Lies and The Abyss


Me, too!


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> What's the way to measure peak nits? Assuming one has a Spectroradiometer / Spectrophotometer and a Colorimeter / Photometer?


Just point one of them at the screen while displaying a peak white patch and measure. Calibration SW returns luminance (Y) usually in cd/m2 - which is another name for nits. Either should be accurate enough for this job.


----------



## bobof

A second hand shop round the corner from me still has a bunch of LD titles sat on the shelf...!


----------



## Roland Janus

MOberhardt said:


> Is that an issue with frame packed 3d? Eg real 3d Blu Rays? All my 3d is Blu Ray.


They are all Full SBS rips, the Radiance is set to SBS manually, the projector is then doing frame packet.
I'll have to look into Jim's comments also later on.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> Comments on scaling:
> 
> You set the output aspect for 2D and 3D the same way. Source for HD (2D and 3D) and UHD is in a 16:9 raster (even if 2.35 or 2.40). So, it makes no difference whether the source is 2D, 3D, or 4k, the Radiance Pro output aspect setup is the same. Without going into painful detail I can say it all works correctly (when set up correctly of course).


Yes, source is, but output isn't.
For everything except 3D, source is 3840x2160 (UHD) or 1920x1080 and the output is always 4096x2160 by the Radiance, using the full panel, which the lens is correcting (squeezing)
But with 3D, the source and radiance output is always 1920x1080, which the projector is scaling to 3840x2160, which the lens is then also "correcting", wrongly.
It's squeezing it, I see that round objects are not round and there are black bars left and right and they can not be made to disappear with any format button.
For me, the physics don't add up.

You're saying if setup properly that still would work?


----------



## MOberhardt

Roland Janus said:


> They are all Full SBS rips, the Radiance is set to SBS manually, the projector is then doing frame packet.
> I'll have to look into Jim's comments also later on.


But isn't sbs 3d half horizontal resolution? So half the disc data is just discarded?


----------



## thrang

The sharpening is scintillating!

Great job again by Jim and Pat for their ongoing work

And to those ding dongs who may think the Radiance is an “old” man compared to the new toddler (who’s first steps continue to remain so unstable their parents still won’t let him out of the house) - remember, the FPGA technology used in the Radiance allows much of it to be rejuvenated and refreshed. This keeps it remarkably relevant and vibrant.

And while certain advances eventually may require HW changes, those things will impact most any HW. Nonetheless, the FPGA is a bit of a fountain of youth that should not be underestimated ...


----------



## audioguy

thrang said:


> And to those ding dongs who may think the Radiance is an “old” man compared to the new toddler (who’s first steps continue to remain so unstable their parents still won’t let him out of the house) - remember, the FPGA technology used in the Radiance allows much of it to be rejuvenated and refreshed. This keeps it remarkably relevant and vibrant.


Excellent. So very well said.


----------



## Roland Janus

MOberhardt said:


> But isn't sbs 3d half horizontal resolution? So half the disc data is just discarded?


I encode full HD SBS, 3840x1080p
I tell the Radiance to limit video to 1080p (memory), so that the shield is not outputting 4K but 1080p instead (previous versions of Kodi didn't need that but now it does).


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*FW 092820*
_Posted 100920_ 
Fix for bad pixels on bottom line of video with new sharpening feature enabled. 
Fix for converting from 5 to 21 point in the CMS Grayscale/Gamma menu. 
Bugfix for resetting all settings except CMS in previous update was incorrect and now fixed. 
Factory reset defaults for sharpness are now 2 with High level while Darbee now defaults to a level of 25 when performing a factory reset. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> I encode full HD SBS, 3840x1080p
> I tell the Radiance to limit video to 1080p (memory), so that the shield is not outputting 4K but 1080p instead (previous versions of Kodi didn't need that but now it does).


So what resolution is the Shield outputting? Something somewhere must be throwing away if the Shield is outputting 1080p SBS?


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> So what resolution is the Shield outputting? Something somewhere must be throwing away if the Shield is outputting 1080p SBS?


1920x1080
I still hope that Kodi gets fixed, as it was outputting 3840x1080 in the past, without switching to 4K output and it worked then, now I have to force 1920x1080
Not sure if that makes sense though or if full SBS makes sense.
So far no player seems to be able to play re-encoded FP content (anymore).


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> Here are my current recommendations for HDR settings.
> 
> First note that the older recommended settings still work well, but the improvements in Radiance Pro DTM have allowed us to recommend more aggressive settings, which result in brighter images.
> 
> Max Light: For projectors in the 80 to 150 nits range set Max Light to 4 to 5 times the light output in nits. For our Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS-4500's, on our 14 foot Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, we get 78 nits and I have Max Light set to 400 (so about 4.5x). For TVs around 600 to 1000 nits, I recommend max light at 1.5 times light output in nits. For TVs around 1500 nits and higher I recommend Max Light of 1x light output in nits. If you do not have a light meter, I recommend using "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45 (people on and around an overturned boat) to use while adjusting Max Light. This is an extremely bright scene and I find it works well. Adjust Max Light, trading off scene brightness and proper color saturation.
> 
> Low Ratio: The default of 31 is generally a good setting. You can adjust so the "Dark Scene Max Light" reported while adjusting this parameter is in the range of 1x to 2x the measured light in nits. I am currently using abut 1.25x, but have also been experimenting with 1x and 1.5x. For example, if you have, say a maximum light output of 100 nits, and you have the Low Ratio set so the dark scene max light is around 100 nits, then scenes at 100 nits and less would be reproduced nit-for-nit (approximately).
> 
> Dyn Pad: We recommend 2, since the scene adaptation now can adjust for reasonable lighting changes within each scene. However, if you notice some scenes clipping you should consider raising the CMS Max Light, and perhaps increasing the Dyn Pad. The value of 2 for scenes with significant lighting changes may in some cases show a slight amount of visible clipping. Kris Deering and I spent hours on the phone one day recently looking at many scenes on our respective screens trying to decide the best Dyn Pad default setting. We ended up deciding on 2. One Radiance Pro owner I was recently helping (who had a lot of light output) ended up liking Dyn Pad = 5 (as I recall). If Dyn Pad = 5 gives you enough light for your personal preference, then I do not see a downside to the higher value (since the downside is not-as-bright scenes), and it should pretty much eliminate visible clipping even in scenes with significant lighting changes.
> 
> DeSat: The current default is "Auto." The dynamic desaturation processing in the DTM is now much better since it is now based on the scene MaxCLL. For the "Auto" setting extremely bright objects (e.g. a lightning strike) desaturate to some degree but other bright saturated objects (e.g. truck exploding at 28:29 in Max Max: Fury Road) are not desaturated (at least not much). If you prefer to desaturate the explosion in the Mad Max scene, then a setting of "Med" might be preferable. Or split the difference and use "Low."


This is such a very useful post. Thank you much for taking the time to put some order in the chaos that was there beforehand.


----------



## ShaharT

bobof said:


> Just point one of them at the screen while displaying a peak white patch and measure. Calibration SW returns luminance (Y) usually in cd/m2 - which is another name for nits. Either should be accurate enough for this job.


Thanks much!

Apparently, I had it somehow figured incorrectly before (I thought I have 50 nits).

Now it shows 80 nits when playing a reference Lumagen white pattern, and 70 nits when playing a Lumagen adjustable white pattern. This (the adjustable pattern result) coupled with JRP's recent explanation on how to use the ADTM settings, has resulted in the best video I have ever seen on my screen.

Playing the Spears & Munsil HDR test disc, the demo section. Which by now I must have played well over 500 times 

A strange (for me) phenomenon is that the distance of the probe has much impact on the measured nits. The highest Y number I had was when the probe was right at my sitting position (the PJ is a short distance behind me). When I moved the probe closer to the screen (without measuring its own shadow) the Y value kept dropping as I moved the probe closer to the screen, reaching 8 nits lower at the closest distance to the screen. I guess the laws of physics or some other explanation that eludes me  Anyway, thank you great supportive community that has formed around the best video processor on the planet.


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> Thanks much!
> 
> Apparently, I had it somehow figured incorrectly before (I thought I have 50 nits).
> 
> Now it shows 80 nits when playing a reference Lumagen white pattern, and 70 nits when playing a Lumagen adjustable white pattern. This (the adjustable pattern result) coupled with JRP's recent explanation on how to use the ADTM settings, has resulted in the best video I have ever seen on my screen.
> 
> Playing the Spears & Munsil HDR test disc, the demo section. Which by now I must have played well over 500 times
> 
> A strange (for me) phenomenon is that the distance of the probe has much impact on the measured nits. The highest Y number I had was when the probe was right at my sitting position (the PJ is a short distance behind me). When I moved the probe closer to the screen (without measuring its own shadow) the Y value kept dropping as I moved the probe closer to the screen, reaching 8 nits lower at the closest distance to the screen. I guess the laws of physics or some other explanation that eludes me  Anyway, thank you great supportive community that has formed around the best video projector on the planet.


You want to make sure that the meter makes approximately the same angle with the screen as your gaze from seating position ( in case you have a screen with non-lambertian response) as that can have significant impact. Any white screen with gain of more than 1, light Grays above something like 0.7, and almost any dark grey will be affected to some extent usually. 

The meter shadow can be an issue depending on where your projector is located. Usually you can move further back and lose the shadow, though sometimes this might give too wide a field of view.

Because of the tone mapping it is best if you can just display the white field outside of the tone mapping. When I want to work out the peak white at a given iris setting I find it quickest to just show an SDR 100% patch and adjust the PJ RGB gains until I get to D65 white, and then you have your peak white.


----------



## docrog

I'm hoping to find a consensus: For those of you with ATV4K and/or Nvidia Shield, Roku Ultra (etc.), in an ideal setting would you rather have those streaming devices upscale native 1080p material to 4K and have the Lumagen take it from there *OR* have the streaming device output 1080p material at native resolution to the Lumagen and have the Lumagen upscale to 4K? I realize that Darbee processing could be utilized in the latter setting if one so desired, but I'm more interested in which would be the preferable device to perform 1080p -> 4K upscaling. Thanks!


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> Here are my current recommendations for HDR settings.
> 
> First note that the older recommended settings still work well, but the improvements in Radiance Pro DTM have allowed us to recommend more aggressive settings, which result in brighter images.
> 
> Max Light: For projectors in the 80 to 150 nits range set Max Light to 4 to 5 times the light output in nits. For our Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS-4500's, on our 14 foot Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, we get 78 nits and I have Max Light set to 400 (so about 4.5x). For TVs around 600 to 1000 nits, I recommend max light at 1.5 times light output in nits. For TVs around 1500 nits and higher I recommend Max Light of 1x light output in nits. If you do not have a light meter, I recommend using "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45 (people on and around an overturned boat) to use while adjusting Max Light. This is an extremely bright scene and I find it works well. Adjust Max Light, trading off scene brightness and proper color saturation.
> 
> Low Ratio: The default of 31 is generally a good setting. You can adjust so the "Dark Scene Max Light" reported while adjusting this parameter is in the range of 1x to 2x the measured light in nits. I am currently using abut 1.25x, but have also been experimenting with 1x and 1.5x. For example, if you have, say a maximum light output of 100 nits, and you have the Low Ratio set so the dark scene max light is around 100 nits, then scenes at 100 nits and less would be reproduced nit-for-nit (approximately).
> 
> Dyn Pad: We recommend 2, since the scene adaptation now can adjust for reasonable lighting changes within each scene. However, if you notice some scenes clipping you should consider raising the CMS Max Light, and perhaps increasing the Dyn Pad. The value of 2 for scenes with significant lighting changes may in some cases show a slight amount of visible clipping. Kris Deering and I spent hours on the phone one day recently looking at many scenes on our respective screens trying to decide the best Dyn Pad default setting. We ended up deciding on 2. One Radiance Pro owner I was recently helping (who had a lot of light output) ended up liking Dyn Pad = 5 (as I recall). If Dyn Pad = 5 gives you enough light for your personal preference, then I do not see a downside to the higher value (since the downside is not-as-bright scenes), and it should pretty much eliminate visible clipping even in scenes with significant lighting changes.
> 
> DeSat: The current default is "Auto." The dynamic desaturation processing in the DTM is now much better since it is now based on the scene MaxCLL. For the "Auto" setting extremely bright objects (e.g. a lightning strike) desaturate to some degree but other bright saturated objects (e.g. truck exploding at 28:29 in Max Max: Fury Road) are not desaturated (at least not much). If you prefer to desaturate the explosion in the Mad Max scene, then a setting of "Med" might be preferable. Or split the difference and use "Low."


Jim,

This is from soon to be a new owner of the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242.
Just want to say a *Big *Thank-You for what you do on this thread like this post regarding the latest/newest Firmware.  👍 
Mine will arrive this coming week and will get installed the following week.
Then on the 26th & 27th this month (October) my guy "Chad B" out of Ohio USA will be coming to do the actual calibrating of All my Audio & Video including the New 4242.
I'm glad I follow You & Kris Deering on this thread as I am printing your Post for Chad.

I also have watched multiple times the two (2) video interviews of you discussing the Lumagen Video Processors.
I also saw the video of you on the Ship doing another review on the earlier Lumagen video processors.
One of the things that got my immediate "Attention" was when you mentioned you have the JVC RS4500 Laser Projector !!!
I also have the JVC RS4500 Laser Projector thanks to an Excellent article in Sound & Vision by Kris Deering and not to ever forget Mike Garrett my salesman.
In your case you have the Stewart Filmscreen ST130 in a 14' I now have the Stewart Filmscreen ST130 G4 thanks to that Excellent article in Sound & Vision by Kris Deering.

*By me printing these latest/newest changes he will see what's needed before he even gets started with the calibrating thanks to Both of You Guys !!!* 🏆

Thans again,
Terry Honaker
USA


----------



## sjschaff

thrang said:


> The sharpening is scintillating!
> 
> Great job again by Jim and Pat for their ongoing work
> 
> And to those ding dongs who may think the Radiance is an “old” man compared to the new toddler (who’s first steps continue to remain so unstable their parents still won’t let him out of the house) - remember, the FPGA technology used in the Radiance allows much of it to be rejuvenated and refreshed. This keeps it remarkably relevant and vibrant.
> 
> And while certain advances eventually may require HW changes, those things will impact most any HW. Nonetheless, the FPGA is a bit of a fountain of youth that should not be underestimated ...


Absolutely! Same holds true with the digital tech I use in my audio system from dCS. Use of FPGA chips has allowed for significant updates, over a very lengthy period for their Vivaldi line, at least when it comes to this frequently changing part of the home audio chain.


----------



## fatjulio

Roland Janus said:


> So far no player seems to be able to play re-encoded FP content (anymore).


If I'm reading this correctly, you want a way to play full resolution frame packed 3D you've re-encoded?
I do this on my Oppo 203. You use TS muxer to make an M2TS file, and make sure you put the H264 video layer at the top, above the MVC layer.


----------



## Mike Garrett

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim and Kris,
> Yes, that’s exactly what I thought based my observation, changing any parameters would discard the scene history and restart the DTM. FWIW, I am currently using Dpad 2, low ratio 30, max light 600, my measured brightness is 150 nits.
> 
> Are you suggesting talking to Lumagen directly is a better way to report than posting it here? I am definitely more than happy to contact Lumagen (by making an appointment with Jim?) to share more details about my findings. One of the most important reasons that I bought a Lumagen is that I fully trust their responsiveness to customer’s feedback.



If you see an issue, need to document it. Need to list movie, timestamp and what issue you are seeing.


----------



## ht guy

Big shout out to @jrp and the team at Lumagen and @Kris Deering for the 2nd huge firmware update in the short time I've owned a 4242.
You guys are amazing!
Thank you.


----------



## Roland Janus

fatjulio said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, you want a way to play full resolution frame packed 3D you've re-encoded?
> I do this on my Oppo 203. You use TS muxer to make an M2TS file, and make sure you put the H264 video layer at the top, above the MVC layer.


highly offtopic 

are you referring for a specific reason to h264?
I encode with x265, but I only have the Oppo BDP-93, but of course, I prefer to use Kodi for all video-files.
Can you send me the mediainfo of such a file? (PM maybe)


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> Thanks for the positive feedback. So far all public and private feedback has been very positive.
> 
> ====
> 
> By default all inputs and all memories use input-resolution memory "0" so yes it will apply across inputs and memories. You would have to reprogram the input config to use a different input config memory to have them be different.
> 
> Possible that there is a bug that (incorrectly) applies changes across inputs. We will check into this.


I haven't upgraded (downgraded ?) my Lumagen yet to the latest software, so before doing so I would like to know how I can avoid this sharpness crap. It's a lonely world for video purists, so please I'm not interested in getting in arguments about the value of the sharpness feature. I just want to know what is the default for the sharpness enhancement. If it's on how can I turn if off for everything?


----------



## MOberhardt

This might sound insane, but are there any settings on the lumagen to un stuff transfers with bad edge enhancements? Eg take the us dvd of the second X-Men movie, or even bad early Blu Ray transfers?


----------



## Mark Burton

darksets said:


> I haven't upgraded (downgraded ?) my Lumagen yet to the latest software, so before doing so I would like to know how I can avoid this sharpness crap. It's a lonely world for video purists, so please I'm not interested in getting in arguments about the value of the sharpness feature. I just want to know what is the default for the sharpness enhancement. If it's on how can I turn if off for everything?


you can just turn it off.


----------



## audioguy

darksets said:


> I haven't upgraded (downgraded ?) my Lumagen yet to the latest software, so before doing so I would like to know how I can avoid this sharpness crap. It's a lonely world for video purists, so please I'm not interested in getting in arguments about the value of the sharpness feature. I just want to know what is the default for the sharpness enhancement. If it's on how can I turn if off for everything?


Right arrow on the remote shows you the options for edge enhancement and Darbee. Turn them both to "off". Done!!


----------



## EVH78

ARROW-AV said:


> Not sure what you mean here? Dynamic dimming does not in fact affect intrascene contrast performance. It neither increases nor decreases it. It is akin to applying an ND filter wherein it reduces the black level luminance but whilst also reducing the white level luminance by the same magnitude. The benefit is that black levels deepen but at the expense of dimming the bright highlights as well.


So I measured the contrast and yes, the dynamic dimming does NOT affect the native contrast at all. I personally find the picture with the dimming on full very dull and flat. 

It was the missing highlights that led me to that false assumption that the contrast would be less.


----------



## Ash Sharma

EVH78 said:


> So I measured the contrast and yes, the dynamic dimming does NOT affect the native contrast at all. I personally find the picture with the dimming on full very dull and flat.
> 
> It was the missing highlights that led me to that false assumption that the contrast would be less.


So do you recommend turning Dynamic Dimming Off?
And if yes then at what level?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> I'm hoping to find a consensus: For those of you with ATV4K and/or Nvidia Shield, Roku Ultra (etc.), in an ideal setting would you rather have those streaming devices upscale native 1080p material to 4K and have the Lumagen take it from there *OR* have the streaming device output 1080p material at native resolution to the Lumagen and have the Lumagen upscale to 4K? I realize that Darbee processing could be utilized in the latter setting if one so desired, but I'm more interested in which would be the preferable device to perform 1080p -> 4K upscaling. Thanks!


For sure you want to let the Radiance Pro do all the video work. Apple TV should be set to output in the movie’s source resolution: so 1080P if it’s an HD film. You have to manually change the ATV settings each time. If you leave it in 4K, it will upscale everything to 4K - you don’t want that. 
Always set ATV to 4K-SDR, not HDR. It will auto switch to HDR even if it’s set to SDR. If you leave it in HDR, it will try to convert SDR to HDR which is not great.
Chroma should be set to 4:2:2 if available. If not available, use 4:4:4.


----------



## Kris Deering

darksets said:


> I haven't upgraded (downgraded ?) my Lumagen yet to the latest software, so before doing so I would like to know how I can avoid this sharpness crap. It's a lonely world for video purists, so please I'm not interested in getting in arguments about the value of the sharpness feature. I just want to know what is the default for the sharpness enhancement. If it's on how can I turn if off for everything?


You can turn it on and off easily from the menu for any input or resolution (remember, it is resolution specific). You'd still benefit from the updates to the scaling though. I recommend you still try it, even if you are only using a setting of say 1 or 2. I completely understand the purist statement for video, but I also realize that when compression is done on video, the first thing they do is filter out the high frequency detail. Jim implemented this to try and restore some of that detail without intrusive artifacts. There is no doubt that a high setting can start to look bad, but you may find that a setting of 1 -2 with sensitivity at high will not be offensive. Good luck!


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> I'm hoping to find a consensus: For those of you with ATV4K and/or Nvidia Shield, Roku Ultra (etc.), in an ideal setting would you rather have those streaming devices upscale native 1080p material to 4K and have the Lumagen take it from there *OR* have the streaming device output 1080p material at native resolution to the Lumagen and have the Lumagen upscale to 4K? I realize that Darbee processing could be utilized in the latter setting if one so desired, but I'm more interested in which would be the preferable device to perform 1080p -> 4K upscaling. Thanks!


The Nvidia Shield makes it easy to output to the Lumagen in the native resolution. The ATV, for all of its value, makes it necessarily complex in that you have to keep changing the setting. To overcome that mess, I only use the ATV for Apple content that is in 4K and use the Shield for everything else (e.g. Netflix, Amazon, Hulu). If the ATV allowed native output, I would use it for playing my ripped movies and most everything else.


----------



## scrowe

audioguy said:


> The Nvidia Shield makes it easy to output to the Lumagen in the native resolution. The ATV, for all of its value, makes it necessarily complex in that you have to keep changing the setting. To overcome that mess, I only use the ATV for Apple content that is in 4K and use the Shield for everything else (e.g. Netflix, Amazon, Hulu). If the ATV allowed native output, I would use it for playing my ripped movies and most everything else.


You can set a memory on the Lumagen for each input to force EDID at 1080p. I do this for ATV and Panasonic UHD player, so HD content is up scaled by the Lumagen. You can’t force lower resolutions natively though without switching the source device output.


----------



## EVH78

audioguy said:


> The Nvidia Shield makes it easy to output to the Lumagen in the native resolution.


The only way to achieve that was via third party apps so far. Did that change?


----------



## EVH78

Ash Sharma said:


> So do you recommend turning Dynamic Dimming Off?
> And if yes then at what level?
> Thanks in advance.


Personally I would definitely recommend to go with limited. It´s the best of both worlds. Bright highlights and better blacks. 
If black is ocasionally not black enough then simply lower brightness one step.


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> The only way to achieve that was via third party apps so far. Did that change?


Not sure. I only use 3rd party apps (e.g. Plex).


----------



## Nima

scrowe said:


> You can set a memory on the Lumagen for each input to force EDID at 1080p. I do this for ATV and Panasonic UHD player, so HD content is up scaled by the Lumagen. You can’t force lower resolutions natively though without switching the source device output.


Could you elaborate how this is done? 

TIA 
N


----------



## EVH78

audioguy said:


> Not sure. I only use 3rd party apps (e.g. Plex).


Yeah, too bad these devices have no source direct feature.


----------



## scrowe

Nima said:


> Could you elaborate how this is done?
> 
> TIA
> N


On any input memory :-

input setup - options - HDMI Setup - Video EDID - Video Limit - 1080p

remember to Save.


----------



## Ash Sharma

EVH78 said:


> Personally I would definitely recommend to go with limited. It´s the best of both worlds. Bright highlights and better blacks.
> If black is ocasionally not black enough then simply lower brightness one step.


Thats how I am set - thanks for the input as it helps a ton.
Not sure If In the Lumagen you can do this but if brightness can be reduced or increased per input from the Lumagen (instead of projector where there is only one input and one brightness control) that would be best. I will look into this.


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> Yeah, too bad these devices have no source direct feature.


If you only care about playing ripped media, then the Zappiti works. It allows source direct.


----------



## Roland Janus

EVH78 said:


> The only way to achieve that was via third party apps so far. Did that change?


Kodi handles that. Basically, you setup Shield to native 4K and Kodi to automatically adjust (I think that's default). I also limit the Kodi GUI to 1080p
Resolution, Framerate and colorspace (when also enabled on the Shield) are handled automatically.
Except for 3D, everything works pretty nicely all the time.


----------



## docrog

Thanks to all those who responded to my earlier query. I've decided to do a (only slightly clunky) work around.... I found an older non-4K Roku stick which I will specify to output at 1080p. So, I have a wireless 4K Roku and wired (LAN) ATV4K (necessary for Plex) to output streaming at 4K for the appropriate sources and will use the 1080p Roku for all non-4K streaming content. I'm pretty comfortable knowing when to choose between these resolutions and the additional video input (now a total of 5 devices) isn't a deal breaker with my AVR -> Radiance Pro configuration.


----------



## bjorg

Any recommendations for Radiance Pro calibrators in SoCal? I have two systems that could use some TLC.


----------



## uderman

docrog said:


> FWIW, as I previously posted regarding 480p source material (yes, I'm aware that this is not relevant to a portion of those following this forum), Lumagen's upscaling appears to lag behind the capabilities of my Sony X800 player (which I doubt represents the top of the line in that capacity). I completely agree with the remainder of your praise for what Lumagen has provided to its customer base.


For best results with 480i contend, Jim recommends differen


docrog said:


> What I've implied is that (in my A-B comparison) the Sony X800 UHD player appears to do a better job of upscaling 480p material to 1080p than the Radiance Pro, even with the newest firmware enhancements. The Radiance Pro certainly is far more impressive in upscaling 1080p (HD) Blu Ray content to UHD than the X800. In all probability, I'll add an additional streaming device strictly for 1080p content since I would expect the Lumagen to be better at upscaling that content than my Roku Ultra or Apple 4KTV (and I don't want to have to go into the settings menu to switch output resolution on those devices each time I'm aware that the native resolution of the content changes); the X800 will always output 1080p streaming content at UHD since 4K upscaling can only be defeated for Blu Rays if it "sees" the EDID of a UHD capable display (NX7).



For SD to 4K, differential upscaling works the best. I use my Radiance 2144 first to progressive scan 480i and upscale to 1080p. I have my 2144 connected to input 8 (9GHz card) on my Radiance Pro 4446 which upscales to 4K. This method gives the best progressive scan (de-interlacer) and upscaling however the point where sharpen is applied is not ideal. You want sharpen(or any other enhancement) to apply before upscaling. Gennum VXP chip in the Radiance 2144 has enhancements but I never really experimented with them. Radiance 21xx series has Darbee though which can be applied after de-interlacing but before scaling in the 2144. 

Ideally, it would be best if Lumagen added ”Sharpen“ to Radiance 2144/43 so the differential method is perfected but it is a little too much to ask, especially since 21xx series is discontinued. Lumagen might later work on improving SD to 4K scaling and SD de-interlacing (removing the need for a second Radiance) but I wouldn’t count on that either since there are very few users who cares to watch SD content.


----------



## uderman

Peule_P said:


> and yet here I’m still watching Laserdiscs of True Lies and The Abyss


Laserdiscs are one reason I keep my Radiance 2144 with its analog inputs. I prefer True Lies on D-Theater. The Abyss is probably best on LD still while there is a non-anamorphic DVD release (ported from the same LD master) with weaker audio.


----------



## uderman

Craig Peer said:


> I've upgraded all of my DVD's ( and HD DVD's ) to Blu-ray. And whenever a film I really like comes out on 4K, I'm upgrading to that. I can't watch DVD's anymore. Not at less than 1 screen width viewing distance on a 4K projector. I don't have enough time to even watch all of the 4K Blu-rays I bought - yet ( nice having a backlog of content ) !


There are some titles that did get 4K or Blu-ray upgrades but the new masters either altered the color timing, didn’t use the original aspect ratio, neglected to include original mono or stereo audio mix (or the original 5.1 mix), included a different cut (no Director’s Cut or vice versa) and on some occasions used a different music score/soundtrack/dub. This is really heavily depended on preference. Some likes the sharpest and clearest picture with more audio channels than before but some prefers the content to be as close as possible to the original.

Although not a huge list, I have a few hundred films on Laserdiscs, DVDs, HD-DVD and D-Theater tapes. I agree with you that it is somewhat painful to go from the beautiful 4K image to very soft SD image, my OCD can’t stand the changes on the new masters  There are ways to make SD look great though. The Radiance 2144 + Radiance Pro combo produces very watchable picture.


----------



## darksets

Mark Burton said:


> you can just turn it off.


How?


----------



## darksets

audioguy said:


> Right arrow on the remote shows you the options for edge enhancement and Darbee. Turn them both to "off". Done!!


Right arrow where, at which screen? Just right arrow on the remote after turning it on?


----------



## uderman

@j


audioguy said:


> The Nvidia Shield makes it easy to output to the Lumagen in the native resolution. The ATV, for all of its value, makes it necessarily complex in that you have to keep changing the setting. To overcome that mess, I only use the ATV for Apple content that is in 4K and use the Shield for everything else (e.g. Netflix, Amazon, Hulu). If the ATV allowed native output, I would use it for playing my ripped movies and most everything else.


This is pretty cool news ( to me at least). Are you saying with the N Shield, Netflix, Vudu, Prime etc.. outputs 1080p for 2K content and 4K for only 4K content? It is pretty annoying ATV will upscale everything to 4K (I doubt Apple will change this). If N Shield has source direct settings, I am buying one tomorrow. I also heard Plex works better on the shield too.


----------



## audioguy

uderman said:


> @j
> 
> 
> This is pretty cool news ( to me at least). Are you saying with the N Shield, Netflix, Vudu, Prime etc.. outputs 1080p for 2K content and 4K for only 4K content? It is pretty annoying ATV will upscale everything to 4K (I doubt Apple will change this). If N Shield has source direct settings, I am buying one tomorrow. I also heard Plex works better on the shield too.


I can't say the Shield offers source direct but I know that Plex on the Shield does.


----------



## audioguy

darksets said:


> Right arrow where, at which screen? Just right arrow on the remote after turning it on?


Bring up a 1080P movie and right arrow on the remote. You will have to make these setting for each input!


----------



## bjorg

uderman said:


> ... but I wouldn’t count on that either since there are very few users who cares to watch SD content.


Raises hand! 🖐

Unfortunately, there is A LOT of SD material that will likely never get the HD or UHD treatment. A good 480i upscaler is a huge plus for us!


----------



## MOberhardt

uderman said:


> @j
> 
> 
> This is pretty cool news ( to me at least). Are you saying with the N Shield, Netflix, Vudu, Prime etc.. outputs 1080p for 2K content and 4K for only 4K content? It is pretty annoying ATV will upscale everything to 4K (I doubt Apple will change this). If N Shield has source direct settings, I am buying one tomorrow. I also heard Plex works better on the shield too.


I was wondering (and has asked this previously) - Is there some easy way on the Lumagen to quickly switch the edid a video source gives it? So if you have a device like an AppleTV or Panasonic UHD player that doesn't do source direct, you can make the Lumagen change an edid and trigger handshaking.


----------



## uderman

bjorg said:


> Raises hand! 🖐
> 
> Unfortunately, there is A LOT of SD material that will likely never get the HD or UHD treatment. A good 480i upscaler is a huge plus for us!





MOberhardt said:


> I was wondering (and has asked this previously) - Is there some easy way on the Lumagen to quickly switch the edid a video source gives it? So if you have a device like an AppleTV or Panasonic UHD player that doesn't do source direct, you can make the Lumagen change an edid and trigger handshaking.



Based on the replies, there is no source direct for streaming apps like Netflix, Prime and Hulu. You either need to manually change the resolution and or setup one of the memories on the Radiance to force 1080p (using HDMI EDID). This won’t work for lower resolutions because most source devices ignores EDID for anything below 1080p.


----------



## Peule_P

audioguy said:


> I can't say the Shield offers source direct but I know that Plex on the Shield does.


kodi on Shield as well, have the GUI set to 1080p so everything of 1080p and lower is output at 1080p.
4K is output at 4K.
Similar on my Vero 4K+ player btw


----------



## Peule_P

uderman said:


> Laserdiscs are one reason I keep my Radiance 2144 with its analog inputs. I prefer True Lies on D-Theater. The Abyss is probably best on LD still while there is a non-anamorphic DVD release (ported from the same LD master) with weaker audio.


yes sold my 2144 a few weeks ago as I found dual Lumagens don’t work well with remote control inputs etc. (Had a XS before and a 2143)
Planning to run a DVDO VP50Pro or Eval board and run that into a Radiance Pro.

still need to get a Pro so yet have to try this, that is also the reason to sell the 2144 already to raise some funds for it


----------



## EVH78

audioguy said:


> If you only care about playing ripped media, then the Zappiti works. It allows source direct.


Yes, I have a Zappiti too! Works great with my NAS. Just waiting for an updated Pro version with forced subs, metadata and DV.


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> Yes, I have a Zappiti too! Works great with my NAS. Just waiting for an updated Pro version with forced subs, metadata and DV.


Other than forced subs, the Lumagen can now deal with the other with the one of the most recent updates as you can tell it to ignore the metadata. You will need to do so for any source that has that issue. In my case, I did it for the Zappiti and my Nvidia since I was told the Nvidia was not perfect in that area. Made a big improvement at least with the Zappiti..

One of the *very problematic* short-comings of the Zappiti is that it misses too many of the movies I have on my NAS, even if they are in the proper folder and format. They don't show up as not identified, they just don't show up. I have a client who uses the Zappiti NAS and it does the same thing with it. I have had a couple of days of phone calls with the Zappiti folks in France and they have yet to determine the cause. Unsettling since, with a large collection, there is no easy way to tell which ones it can't process. When it is doing the scan, you can see the titles show up but at the end, it is nowhere to be found!!


----------



## riddle

EVH78 said:


> Yes, I have a Zappiti too! Works great with my NAS. Just waiting for an updated Pro version with forced subs, metadata and DV.


They will have new model?


----------



## EVH78

riddle said:


> They will have new model?


Rumours have it they will relaunch the players with a new chipset.


----------



## riddle

EVH78 said:


> Rumours have it they will relaunch the players with a new chipset.


With source direct  this will be ideal choice if this player will have lot of better cpu


----------



## audioguy

riddle said:


> With source direct  this will be ideal choice if this player will have lot of better cpu


Already has source direct. The new version is to deal with other stuff, like forced subtitles, passing meta data, etc.


----------



## Killroy

audioguy said:


> Already has source direct. The new version is to deal with other stuff, like forced subtitles, passing meta data, etc.


If they still can't handle something as simple and basic as "default" flags in subs on MKV I can't even begin to take them seriously do do anything else well.


----------



## SJHT

Is there a Zappiti thread?


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> Any recommendations for Radiance Pro calibrators in SoCal? I have two systems that could use some TLC.


I'm hoping to be down that way in the near future (hopefully next month, but we'll see). You can PM me or reach me through my signature.


----------



## uderman

Peule_P said:


> yes sold my 2144 a few weeks ago as I found dual Lumagens don’t work well with remote control inputs etc. (Had a XS before and a 2143)
> Planning to run a DVDO VP50Pro or Eval board and run that into a Radiance Pro.
> 
> still need to get a Pro so yet have to try this, that is also the reason to sell the 2144 already to raise some funds for it


DVDO VP50Pro won’t work well for Laserdiscs. You will need the Eval board in front of it or get a DVDO Duo/Edge instead. I would still not use the scaling in the DVDO products but SD de-interlacing is terrific on the later models.


----------



## Des511

audioguy said:


> Other than forced subs, the Lumagen can now deal with the other with the one of the most recent updates as you can tell it to ignore the metadata. You will need to do so for any source that has that issue. In my case, I did it for the Zappiti and my Nvidia since I was told the Nvidia was not perfect in that area. Made a big improvement at least with the Zappiti..
> 
> One of the *very problematic* short-comings of the Zappiti is that it misses too many of the movies I have on my NAS, even if they are in the proper folder and format. They don't show up as not identified, they just don't show up. I have a client who uses the Zappiti NAS and it does the same thing with it. I have had a couple of days of phone calls with the Zappiti folks in France and they have yet to determine the cause. Unsettling since, with a large collection, there is no easy way to tell which ones it can't process. When it is doing the scan, you can see the titles show up but at the end, it is nowhere to be found!!


Can I ask what Nit figure you’ve put in the Lumagen for the always on setting?


----------



## uderman

bjorg said:


> Raises hand! 🖐
> 
> Unfortunately, there is A LOT of SD material that will likely never get the HD or UHD treatment. A good 480i upscaler is a huge plus for us!





bjorg said:


> Raises hand! 🖐
> 
> Unfortunately, there is A LOT of SD material that will likely never get the HD or UHD treatment. A good 480i upscaler is a huge plus for us!


If there is more than a few of us who raises hand, I believe there is hope.


----------



## darksets

audioguy said:


> Bring up a 1080P movie and right arrow on the remote. You will have to make these setting for each input!


Thanks to everyone for your help. I find it a very unfortunate choice that such an intrusive feature not only is on by default but there is no simple way to turn it off for all inputs like Darbee.


----------



## MOberhardt

Another quick idea, I wonder if it would be possible for the Lumagen to tame white subtitles? Eg if it can detect say 100% white it can drop it. Like the Panasonic can do with subtitle luminance control. It is one of the main reasons I persist with my Panasonic although it lacks source direct...


----------



## sjschaff

Kris Deering said:


> I'm hoping to be down that way in the near future (hopefully next month, but we'll see). You can PM me or reach me through my signature.


How about the S.F. Bay Area while you're heading south?


----------



## Kris Deering

darksets said:


> Thanks to everyone for your help. I find it a very unfortunate choice that such an intrusive feature not only is on by default but there is no simple way to turn it off for all inputs like Darbee.


Not sure what you mean here. Once you turn it off for any resolution on one input, it turns it off for ALL inputs using that resolution. So it is really simple to turn off.


----------



## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> How about the S.F. Bay Area while you're heading south?


It will be included in the trip for sure Steve!


----------



## giomania

I updated the unofficial guide linked in my signature, adding the new Sharpness control information and Jim's updated DTM settings.

Mark


----------



## darksets

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure what you mean here. Once you turn it off for any resolution on one input, it turns it off for ALL inputs using that resolution. So it is really simple to turn off.


That's what I mean. There are 4-5 resolutions and you have to repeat the process for each one of them. You can turn Darbee off with "MENU 0860".


----------



## dlinsley

darksets said:


> That's what I mean. There are 4-5 resolutions and you have to repeat the process for each one of them. You can turn Darbee off with "MENU 0860".


Best to email [email protected] and ask if they've added a quick code, and if not, if they can.


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*FW 93020*
_Posted 101220_ 
Small sw fix for a bug that prevented 4246 outputs from turning on in some cases in last couple of updates. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ . 
_Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Mike_WI said:


> *FW 93020
> Posted 101220
> Small sw fix for a bug that prevented 4246 outputs from turning on in some cases in last couple of updates.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at support@lumagen.com .
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.*


This is a very quick update indeed.


----------



## SJHT

Assume if we don’t have that model, we don’t need to update....


----------



## Mark Burton

darksets said:


> That's what I mean. There are 4-5 resolutions and you have to repeat the process for each one of them. You can turn Darbee off with "MENU 0860".


i really don’t see the issue, it takes about 2 seconds per resolution, so you’ll waste a total of around 10 seconds by doing it!!


----------



## gadgetfreaky

gadgetfreaky said:


> For those wit Nvidia Shield Pro's what are your settings? Do you use the AI Enhanced upscaling? Medium? low? or leave it at Basic? or is there a way to turn it off?
> What about match frame rate (beta)?
> On plex, I have refresh rate switching on and resolution switching on. Anything else on plex? (should HDMI passthrough for audio be disabled? i have lumgen outputing audio out of output 1 to my Arcam).
> 
> I launched developer mode and found a "stay awake screen will never sleep while charging" as well as a "reset HDMI when errors are detected" although not sure what the latter does I'm hoping this fixes the once in a while issue of the lumagen sometimes giving me a green snowing screen or hdmi handshake issues with my benq where when i turn on everything the benq doesn't think there's a picture and I have to switch inputs on the lumagen to something else than back to the nvidia for it to work. (anyone else have this problem?)
> 
> I mostly watch Netflix, Amazon, HBO Hulu,. I think there's a lot of 1080p content, but I thin the nvidia is upscaling them? I'm trying to figure out the match frame rate thing, do I have to turn it on every single time I watch a new piece of content? trying to figure out what this even does on those apps.


of course I posted this right before the new firmware.. those with nvidia would love your settings.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Hello,

Mine just arrived ...................









tigerhonaker's Home Theater phase # 1of being...


Hi Terry, Thanks for the tip on the Williams disc. I like his music and of course the Vienna orchestra is fantastic as both of us know from the New Years concerts we have watched and listened to. Should be very interesting in Atmos! I, too, am going to order it. Cheers, Tom




www.avsforum.com





Terry


----------



## darksets

Mark Burton said:


> i really don’t see the issue, it takes about 2 seconds per resolution, so you’ll waste a total of around 10 seconds by doing it!!


Someone wrote put in a disc and press the right arrow. Finding an putting in discs for each resolution takes more than 2 seconds. Of course I found the menu option where you could set it for resolutions different than the current input's. However, only the current input has * next to it, so I had to verify it actually worked by doing the disc thing. If you are one of those people who would just set it without testing it actually worked for the various resolutions, I hope you are not a computer programmer.


----------



## fatherom

darksets said:


> Someone wrote put in a disc and press the right arrow. Finding an putting in discs for each resolution takes more than 2 seconds. Of course I found the menu option where you could set it for resolutions different than the current input's. However, only the current input has * next to it, so I had to verify it actually worked by doing the disc thing. If you are one of those people who would just set it without testing it actually worked for the various resolutions, I hope you are not a computer programmer.


You seem really put off by even the simplest of settings on the lumagen. Have you emailed these concerns to tech support?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## darksets

fatherom said:


> You seem really put off by even the simplest of settings on the lumagen. Have you emailed these concerns to tech support?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No I haven't emailed them. I've already gone through the trouble of turning this feature off and it's not a malfunction so what support am I going to request? They should take into account their users' needs, I'm not their UI department. They've already spent time and resources on this useless, if not deleterious, feature. Their mistake is believing that the people requesting such features are their true customers. Their true customers are people who care about video quality and integrity, the others will jump on to the next shiny object once it appears.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

darksets said:


> They've already spent time and resources on this useless, if not deleterious, feature. Their mistake is believing that the people requesting such features are their true customers. Their true customers are people who care about video quality and integrity, the other people will jump on to the next shiny object once it appears.


I can sense your frustration, but using the tone that is apparent in your post is not really warranted or appreciated. The Lumagen Support Team are there to help ....


----------



## Kris Deering

Wow


----------



## darksets

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> I can sense your frustration, but using the tone that is apparent in your post is not really warranted or appreciated. The Lumagen Support Team are there to help ....


How do you know, do you work for Lumagen? I'm posting to a public forum, I'm not looking for any company's appreciation.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

darksets said:


> How do you know, do you work for Lumagen? I'm posting to a public forum, I'm on not looking for any company's appreciation.


No ... I do not work for Lumagen in any shape or form.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

darksets said:


> I'm posting to a public forum, I'm on not looking for any company's appreciation.


You are entitled to your opinion, as I am too.


----------



## blake

Perhaps a good time to change the subject, sorry if this is off topic, but relates to HDR which the Lumagen is great at optimizing on our projector screens. 

The iPhone 12 announced today records video in 4K 60hz HDR Dolby Vision ! And AirPlay will support this as well. So you will be able to play your own filmed movie content in all its glory on your 4K HDR projector tone mapped by Lumagen (ex via Airplay to ATV 4K)

Very exciting. Apple has a bit of content in their ads recorded on native iPhone 12 and it’s impressive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Given I only have 4 inputs I'd like to use the Arcam 390 to switch video inputs so I can add a 5th. But I was getting a lot of HDMI handshake issues with the picture cutting out every minute or so. 

Are there any new settings like Genlock (still dont' know what this is) that might help? I also have a HD Fury Vertex sitting around I can use if that's helpful. This would get my volume back on the screen and the surround codec as well. But I don't want to deal with super slow handshakes. It's already a bit annoying when the framerate of resolution changes and it flashes and I wait 5 seconds or so in darkness. trying to reduce that as much as possible. I have the Nvidia Pro for most of what I watch, native apps on their, netflix, hulu, amazon. use plex for my older movies (mostly 1080p) but find myself using vudu more often now. input 2 is appletv HD as theirs some good shows. 3 is the Oppo. and 4 is the switch. I was about to get the chromecast to try it out, but I guess I can use the oppo video input as my 5th. 
Right now I have all devices going to the lumagen, and lumagen to the benq lk990. hdmi audio to the receiver.


----------



## audioguy

blake said:


> Perhaps a good time to change the subject, sorry if this is off topic, but relates to HDR which the Lumagen is great at optimizing on our projector screens.
> 
> The iPhone 12 announced today records video in 4K 60hz HDR Dolby Vision ! And AirPlay will support this as well. So you will be able to play your own filmed movie content in all its glory on your 4K HDR projector tone mapped by Lumagen (ex via Airplay to ATV 4K)
> 
> Very exciting. Apple has a bit of content in their ads recorded on native iPhone 12 and it’s impressive.


That's why I should quit browsing AVS. Until reading the above, I had ZERO interest in the new iPhone. But 4K HDR video would be fun for showing the video in our theater with the Lumagen. 

I have to laugh when I read the specs of the new iPhone with up to 256*GB* of memory. At the risk of giving away my age, when I graduated from college (just prior to the invention of dirt), I went to work for what was then McDonnell Aircraft in St. Louis as a scientific programmer. The computer we used was the most powerful computer on the planet at the time (equalled in power by personal computers of the late 80s !!) That computer had (drum roll please) a massive 150 *Kilobytes* of memory.


----------



## BondDonBond

audioguy said:


> That's why I should quit browsing AVS. Until reading the above, I had ZERO interest in the new iPhone. But 4K HDR video would be fun for showing the video in our theater with the Lumagen.
> 
> I have to laugh when I read the specs of the new iPhone with up to 256*GB* of memory. At the risk of giving away my age, when I graduated from college (just prior to the invention of dirt), I went to work for what was then McDonnell Aircraft in St. Louis as a scientific programmer. The computer we used was the most powerful computer on the planet at the time (equalled in power by personal computers of the late 80s !!) That computer had (drum roll please) a massive 150 *Kilobytes* of memory.


Yea, I keep looking for the card punch reader on my phone , I wonder how many know what those are.


----------



## Craig Peer

BondDonBond said:


> Yea, I keep looking for the card punch reader on my phone , I wonder how many know what those are.


I do - my dad had early computers with punch card readers - made by Singer ! 
This was it - the size of a desk !


----------



## audioguy

BondDonBond said:


> Yea, I keep looking for the card punch reader on my phone , I wonder how many know what those are.


Yep. I most certainly remember those. In college, I worked 20 hours/week for the phone company. Pre-computers. Mark sense card readers/punches, sorters, collators, etc. Fun times!!


----------



## docrog

thrang said:


> It must burn your ass when you have to pick up a fork to eat, as opposed to the fork being placed in your hand by a representative of Oneida...


Or, better yet, like eating at the restaurant ("We Don't Give A Fork") in the British comedy from a few years ago "Crashing" where everyone ate without utensils (using only their hands) in the "native African" style.............


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> I do - my dad had early computers with punch card readers - made by Singer !
> This was it - the size of a desk !
> View attachment 3046443


That's a "toy"  . Here is *(some of*) the image of the computer I was referencing that I worked on for about 5 years. Filled a gigantic room!! The processor in the Lumagen is probably 1000 times or more faster!!


----------



## audioguy

thrang said:


> It must burn your ass when you have to pick up a fork to eat, as opposed to the fork being placed in your hand by a representative of Oneida...


I don't care who you are, now that's just funny !!


----------



## sjschaff

audioguy said:


> That's a "toy"  . Here is *(some of*) the image of the computer I was referencing that I worked on for about 5 years. Filled a gigantic room!! The processor in the Lumagen is probably 1000 times or more faster!!
> 
> View attachment 3046459


Looks just like the cramped computer center at SUNY Binghamton back in the early 70's, where I spent too many hours helping students whose card decks were punched, but the ink ran out on the card punch, and they had the misfortune of dropping the deck, and scrambling all the cards....Humpty Dumpty time, trying to get all back in order, so they could fix coding errors before the next nights run.


----------



## audioguy

sjschaff said:


> Looks just like the cramped computer center at SUNY Binghamton back in the early 70's, where I spent too many hours helping students whose card decks were punched, but the ink ran out on the card punch, and they had the misfortune of dropping the deck, and scrambling all the cards....Humpty Dumpty time, trying to get all back in order, so they could fix coding errors before the next nights run.


It was my first day on the job at the phone company where I operated 4 sorters, I dropped one of those trays that held about 3000 cards. Not an auspicious "first day on the job" but they *eventually* like me well enough so I worked there for a few years until graduation.


----------



## Nima

I have a CIH 2.40 setup (no lens but zooming) and I am not sure what the best practice is for 16:9 content? 

How would I setup the Lumagen to display 16:9 content inside of the CIH 2.40 screen? Any grave downside in doing so or should I use the lens memory (zoom) for 16:9?

Thanks,
Nima


----------



## BrolicBeast

Nima said:


> I have a CIH 2.40 setup (no lens but zooming) and I am not sure what the best practice is for 16:9 content?
> 
> How would I setup the Lumagen to display 16:9 content inside of the CIH 2.40 screen? Any grave downside in doing so or should I use the lens memory (zoom) for 16:9?
> 
> Thanks,
> Nima


Check Out:






And also:






I have this setup to Memory C, which I activate when my 16x9 screen is masked to 2.40.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## wl1

Nima said:


> I have a CIH 2.40 setup (no lens but zooming) and I am not sure what the best practice is for 16:9 content?
> 
> How would I setup the Lumagen to display 16:9 content inside of the CIH 2.40 screen? Any grave downside in doing so or should I use the lens memory (zoom) for 16:9?
> 
> Thanks,
> Nima


start with Tech Tip 16, I’m sure this is as valid on a Lumagen Pro.

from http://www.lumagen.com/docs



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


----------



## Karl Maga

Okay then, the Ignore function it is.


----------



## bjorg

Karl Maga said:


> Okay then, the Ignore function it is.


How do you do that?


----------



## Karl Maga

bjorg said:


> How do you do that?


Klick on the name or avatar/image of the party to ignore and their profile will display. 

In the profile screen, you will see the “Ignore” link to the right of their avatar/image. It’s in blue letters. Press the “Ignore” link and you’re done.


----------



## bjorg

Karl Maga said:


> Klick on the name or avatar/image of the party to ignore and their profile will display.
> 
> In the profile screen, you will see the “Ignore” link to the right of their avatar/image. It’s in blue letters. Press the “Ignore” link and you’re done.


A first time for everything. Done. Thank you!


----------



## Sandel

audioguy said:


> One of the *very problematic* short-comings of the Zappiti is that it misses too many of the movies I have on my NAS, even if they are in the proper folder and format. They don't show up as not identified, they just don't show up. I have a client who uses the Zappiti NAS and it does the same thing with it. I have had a couple of days of phone calls with the Zappiti folks in France and they have yet to determine the cause. Unsettling since, with a large collection, there is no easy way to tell which ones it can't process. When it is doing the scan, you can see the titles show up but at the end, it is nowhere to be found!!


You can still do it manually. At least, that's what I did with the not recognized movies... And most of the videos I produced and want to show up in the movie overview aren't in their database yet.


----------



## Nima

wl1 said:


> start with Tech Tip 16, I’m sure this is as valid on a Lumagen Pro.
> 
> from http://www.lumagen.com/docs
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


I followed those steps but saw in another post from @jrp that he recommends 2.40 for 4k (my screen ratio). So I changed aspect ratio to 2.40 and also set 2.35 to 2.35 in the sub menu and set shrink to 12.96% top and bottom. I am outputting RGB to my PJ.

Is that correct and is no scaling happening for scope movies?


----------



## Nima

Image for reference. Why does it say 1636 for vertical input resolution? Because of the black bars? No scaling happening I hope for 2.35 and 2.40?

Thanks 
Nima


----------



## blake

wl1 said:


> start with Tech Tip 16, I’m sure this is as valid on a Lumagen Pro.
> 
> from http://www.lumagen.com/docs
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


I had no idea you could do this ie. use the Lumagen to move between 16:9 and 2.40 content in a CIH system. 

So you zoom your projector to fill 2.40 screen. And then if you switch to 16:9 content, the Lumagen squishes the content to this ratio automatically with auto -AR?

What is the downside of doing this instead of using the projector’s optical zoom? I assume you are losing brightness in 16:9 ? Because with projector zoom the same lumens would be compressed down to a smaller image (16:9). Whereas if the Lumagen does this , it is just mapping the 16:9 source to a smaller part of your imaging panel ? Not sure if I am understanding this process.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> I had no idea you could do this ie. use the Lumagen to move between 16:9 and 2.40 content in a CIH system.
> 
> So you zoom your projector to fill 2.40 screen. And then if you switch to 16:9 content, the Lumagen squishes the content to this ratio automatically with auto -AR?
> 
> What is the downside of doing this instead of using the projector’s optical zoom? I assume you are losing brightness in 16:9 ? Because with projector zoom the same lumens would be compressed down to a smaller image (16:9). Whereas if the Lumagen does this , it is just mapping the 16:9 source to a smaller part of your imaging panel ? Not sure if I am understanding this process.


Do you need more brightness for 16:9 for some reason? It is measured in foot-lamberts, or candelas per metre squared - it's a measure of light per unit area. If you just blank off some areas of the screen the brightness of the remaining active areas is the same. 

In general, if you are happy with the pixel density you have at 2.4:1, and it is bright enough, then digitally scaling down the image to fit within the height of the 2.4 image should be fine, and brings the benefit of not having to differently calibrate the light output of the projector (the image would get brighter if you zoomed instead, so to maintain a calibration you should close iris further and probably have another calibration done too!). You also don't need to worry about drift in your lens system from zooming and shifting all the time, and it can be more flexible as it isn't a given that you can shift the image to where you need to when zooming for 16:9. You also get instant ratio switching without motors etc.

The downside is if your 2.4 image wasn't really bright enough or didn't really have enough pixels for you, but you were living with it because it got you the benefit of 2.4, then your image will have those same constraints. Also there is some discussion that the Lumagen's downscaling isn't as good as the upscaling. 

Best thing to do is suck it and see.


----------



## wl1

Nima said:


> I followed those steps but saw in another post from @jrp that he recommends 2.40 for 4k (my screen ratio). So I changed aspect ratio to 2.40 and also set 2.35 to 2.35 in the sub menu and set shrink to 12.96% top and bottom. I am outputting RGB to my PJ.
> 
> Is that correct and is no scaling happening for scope movies?


I have the older Lumagen, so you may want to specifcally check with @jrp, but that looks OK to me. I look to see the X and Y Scaler = OFF - and I know its fine. I am unsure why it says specifically 1636 for ver res - my 1080p shows 818 when masking to 2.35. SIDE NOTE: - both scalers = ON when auto aspect recognises 2.40 and ver res then shows 778). I usually force 2.35 for my 2.35 screen at this point, and it locks for the duration of the movie.

Likewise - if you use Auto Aspect with a 2.40 screen - you will likely get small bars for 2.35 content, so check Scaling - as you may prefer to lock at 2.40 to ensure Sclaing = OFF

The downside, as Boboff mentioned, is that downscaling is NOT as good as seeing the full pixels when viewing 16/9. My critical viewing is Movies (not compressed Sat signals/sports @16/9) so I am Ok with the convenience and quick switching, as my manual zooming/focus options on my Sony 55 are better left alone. If I have a few 1.85 movies, or a big sports event - I sometimes go back to full 1080P and Zoom/refocus. 

BTW - I set up memories so I can quickly switch between Tip 16 and not - I have watched sports in 2.35 (scalers = OFF) but the top/bottom masking missing content. This is because I can't be bothered to zoom/refocus - and in many cases, it doesn't matter. 

(I am contemplating a JCV N7 upgrade with Lumagen Pro - hence hanging around here).


----------



## audioguy

Sandel said:


> You can still do it manually. At least, that's what I did with the not recognized movies... And most of the videos I produced and want to show up in the movie overview aren't in their database yet.


This is not an issue of the Zappiti not being able to identify/recognize the movie. All of the competitive systems out there suffer from that and provide tools to fix it. I am talking about a movie being on the server, and the Zappiti doesn't process it and label it as unidentified. It just doesn't show up anywhere.


----------



## Sandel

audioguy said:


> This is not an issue of the Zappiti not being able to identify/recognize the movie. All of the competitive systems out there suffer from that and provide tools to fix it. I am talking about a movie being on the server, and the Zappiti doesn't process it and label it as unidentified. It just doesn't show up anywhere.


Ok, now I see the problem. Strange. Never happened to me. And I even have my personal videos processed...
Did you try renaming the file? Or do you happen to have used "unusual" letters?


----------



## mindedc

gadgetfreaky said:


> did you ever publish this to sell?


Sorry for the delayed response. I am in the process of getting set up with divercentral.io. I have sold direct copies to a few folks and they have been using the control 4 driver for a few months now. If you want to direct purchase send me a PM.


----------



## blake

bobof said:


> Do you need more brightness for 16:9 for some reason? It is measured in foot-lamberts, or candelas per metre squared - it's a measure of light per unit area. If you just blank off some areas of the screen the brightness of the remaining active areas is the same.
> 
> In general, if you are happy with the pixel density you have at 2.4:1, and it is bright enough, then digitally scaling down the image to fit within the height of the 2.4 image should be fine, and brings the benefit of not having to differently calibrate the light output of the projector (the image would get brighter if you zoomed instead, so to maintain a calibration you should close iris further and probably have another calibration done too!). You also don't need to worry about drift in your lens system from zooming and shifting all the time, and it can be more flexible as it isn't a given that you can shift the image to where you need to when zooming for 16:9. You also get instant ratio switching without motors etc.
> 
> The downside is if your 2.4 image wasn't really bright enough or didn't really have enough pixels for you, but you were living with it because it got you the benefit of 2.4, then your image will have those same constraints. Also there is some discussion that the Lumagen's downscaling isn't as good as the upscaling.
> 
> Best thing to do is suck it and see.


You will still gain brightness optical zooming from 2:40 to 16:9 since the whole panel will be concentrated in the smaller area (same light over small area), no?

Extra brightness always good. If you calibrate 16:9 sdr to fL, you can clamp the iris down more and improve contrast. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> You will still gain brightness optical zooming from 2:40 to 16:9 since the whole panel will be concentrated in the smaller area (same light over small area), no?
> 
> Extra brightness always good. If you calibrate 16:9 sdr to fL, you can clamp the iris down more and improve contrast.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes you will gain brightness with optical zooming.

If you just zoom and tame the brightness using the iris, you will find both your gamma and colour calibration will be off in whichever setting you didn't do the calibration in. In many JVC projectors with most commonly used setups you might be into a different Autocal memory for the colour correction too, so if you're using that function you may have to set up there correctly. 

So for calibrated video nirvana you'll find youself needing a different CMS for the different ARs. And although the setup in the Lumagen is very versatile, I don't believe it actually lets you do this, so you'd have to jerry rig something external to change memories for the different aspects I believe....


----------



## bobof

On a similar note to above; I recently got a source which does SDR2020 output for 709 content (annoyingly) (hopefully correctly gamut mapped) - the FireTVCube. This is annoying as to date, switching between my different LUTS and projector settings for HDR vs SDR has been done via the Lumagen which allows different LUT setups to be selected for REC709 and BT2020 content. It doesn't allow different LUTs to be auto selected for PQ vs power gamma.

In my case, I have the projector set up differently for HDR and SDR, so a different LUT is needed for each. I have happily been using it up until now like this, with the implicit selection (2020 = HDR, 709 = SDR). But what happens with the SDR2020 is I stay in SDR mode for the projector 9 (as it is SDR), but the Lumagen is loading my HDR LUT (as 2020). Am I missing a trick, or is this just a limitation of how the scheme currently works?

I could jerry rig something external to switch to a different memory bank if the input is SDR2020, but that would be a bit annoying.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> Yes you will gain brightness with optical zooming.
> 
> If you just zoom and tame the brightness using the iris, you will find both your gamma and colour calibration will be off in whichever setting you didn't do the calibration in. In many JVC projectors with most commonly used setups you might be into a different Autocal memory for the colour correction too, so if you're using that function you may have to set up there correctly.
> 
> So for calibrated video nirvana you'll find youself needing a different CMS for the different ARs. And although the setup in the Lumagen is very versatile, I don't believe it actually lets you do this, so you'd have to jerry rig something external to change memories for the different aspects I believe....


I had Kris Deering do 4 separate calibrations to do this - 16:9 HDR, 16:9 SDR, 2.35:1 HDR, 2.35:1 SDR. Those are in my RS4500.


----------



## CP850-CLED

BrolicBeast said:


> Check Out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have this setup to Memory C, which I activate when my 16x9 screen is masked to 2.40.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Wow, I believe you about the Non-Linear stretching but somehow fail to imagine how it works, if it is so good it may be a solution for 2.0 AR videowalls where it would be a lot less stretching involved.


----------



## BrolicBeast

CP850-CLED said:


> Wow, I believe you about the Non-Linear stretching but somehow fail to imagine how it works, if it is so good it may be a solution for 2.0 AR videowalls where it would be a lot less stretching involved.


100% agreed! It would be great for 2.0 AR. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike Garrett

I am not a big fan of NLS, but will have to admit, I will look at this because it is such a small stretch for 2.0 and 2.2 films. It probably will not be noticable.


----------



## Ash Sharma

BrolicBeast said:


> 100% agreed! It would be great for 2.0 AR.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


My two cents 14 foot wide Screen - 2:35 and 2:40 merged is a good thing.
16:9 and 1:85 merged also is a good thing but I have kept them independent.
2.0 and 2.2 - I don't recommend merging as there is quite a difference between the two.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> My two cents 14 foot wide Screen - 2:35 and 2:40 merged is a good thing.
> 16:9 and 1:85 merged also is a good thing but I have kept them independent.
> 2.0 and 2.2 - I don't recommend merging as there is quite a difference between the two.


Well considering that 2.40 is actually 2.39, so 2.35 to 2.39 is .4 difference and 1.78 to 1.85 is .7 difference, I could understand why some would have an issue with merging 2.0 and 2.2 when the different 3-4x's as much as the others!


----------



## Kris Deering

Kris Deering said:


> Well considering that 2.40 is actually 2.39, so 2.35 to 2.39 is .4 difference and 1.78 to 1.85 is .7 difference, I could understand why some would have an issue with merging 2.0 and 2.2 when the different 3-4x's as much as the others!


Another thing to keep in mind for DCR users, your native aspect is now 2.37 due to the lens, so you are splitting 2.35 and 2.40 perfectly already, so they may as well be the same anyways.


----------



## blake

Craig Peer said:


> I had Kris Deering do 4 separate calibrations to do this - 16:9 HDR, 16:9 SDR, 2.35:1 HDR, 2.35:1 SDR. Those are in my RS4500.


Do you use optical zoom to change between 16:9 and 2.35:1?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

Sandel said:


> Ok, now I see the problem. Strange. Never happened to me. And I even have my personal videos processed...
> Did you try renaming the file? Or do you happen to have used "unusual" letters?


The movie was easily found and identified by other players, most recently the Shield using Plex - and it is named correctly. And there are a few other titles on which the same thing occurred. We will get it fixed. There is a lot to like about the Zappiti players, but every player I have purchased and used (4 or 5 others) all have some quirks. You just pick the one whose quirks bother you the least and go with it. My Shield/Plex randomly says it can't find the server and I can never determine why. I try a bunch of stuff and it eventually works - but one time it took two or three days to start working again. No clue why!!


----------



## Die Zwei

blake said:


> You will still gain brightness optical zooming from 2:40 to 16:9 since the whole panel will be concentrated in the smaller area (same light over small area), no?
> 
> Extra brightness always good. If you calibrate 16:9 sdr to fL, you can clamp the iris down more and improve contrast.


I doubt that you´ll notice the difference in brightness in a A/B comparison.
Sure, in theory it´s there, but in my experience, there needs to be a lot more difference in light output to make a difference than you get with zooming.


----------



## Sandel

audioguy said:


> The movie was easily found and identified by other players, most recently the Shield using Plex - and it is named correctly. [...] You just pick the one whose quirks bother you the least and go with it. [...]


I guess there's no such thing as a perfect media player.


----------



## Mark Burton

Sandel said:


> I guess there's no such thing as a perfect media player.


maybe when zappiti release their new range with the new Realtek chip.

my main issue (and many other users) with the zappiti, is the subtitle issue. Sure, if you rip through Mkv you can rip forced subs only, but then this doesn’t always work with titles like Dawn of the planet of the apes.

Hopefully the new chipset will address this and we can rip all subtitles with the player then playing the correct ones.

Sorry for off topic post 😬


----------



## bobof

Mark Burton said:


> my main issue (and many other users) with the zappiti, is the subtitle issue. Sure, if you rip through Mkv you can rip forced subs only, but then this doesn’t always work with titles like Dawn of the planet of the apes.
> 
> Hopefully the new chipset will address this and we can rip all subtitles with the player then playing the correct ones.


That's got to surely just be a SW bug. The subs go no-where near the chipset at the stream playback level I'm sure, something in the SW stack assembles the OSD image including the subtitles. Admittedly it is possible that bit of the SW comes from Realtek, so I guess it might be fixed inadvertently, but the chip itself is unlikely to resolve...


----------



## Mark Burton

bobof said:


> That's got to surely just be a SW bug. The subs go no-where near the chipset at the stream playback level I'm sure, something in the SW stack assembles the OSD image including the subtitles. Admittedly it is possible that bit of the SW comes from Realtek, so I guess it might be fixed inadvertently, but the chip itself is unlikely to resolve...


It has been zappiti excuse for a long time, they’re blaming Realtek for it, but they’re not interested in sorting.....


----------



## Sandel

bobof said:


> That's got to surely just be a SW bug. The subs go no-where near the chipset at the stream playback level I'm sure, something in the SW stack assembles the OSD image including the subtitles. Admittedly it is possible that bit of the SW comes from Realtek, so I guess it might be fixed inadvertently, but the chip itself is unlikely to resolve...


I was having trouble with DVD menus (coming from DVD ISOs) not being displayed properly. The mouse-over state was misplaced somehow, so you wouldn't know what you were actually selecting.
Zappiti support said this was a Realtek sw bug they couldn't do anything about.
So let's hope for the next chipset which will feature new bugs for sure.


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*FW 100220
- Posted 101620 *
Fix for some Pro's getting a green/purple screen with some sources at power on (seen here on a 4244 with Nvidia Shield at 4k60). 
Adds global disable/enable for Darbee and Sharpness into menu under _*Global: Video: Features*_ . 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## Nima

So is 12.96% shrink correct for 2.35 and 2.40?


----------



## Mike Garrett

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *FW 100220
> - Posted 101620 *
> Fix for some Pro's getting a green/purple screen with some sources at power on (seen here on a 4244 with Nvidia Shield at 4k60).
> Adds global disable/enable for Darbee and Sharpness into menu under _*Global: Video: Features*_ .
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
> _Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


Great, because I was getting this.


----------



## wl1

Nima said:


> So is 12.96% shrink correct for 2.35 and 2.40?


Just change the value and see the effects on the screen. These values are just Masking out the ”image” from spilling onto your frame.


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> Do you use optical zoom to change between 16:9 and 2.35:1?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I remove my DCR lens and use a separate 16:9 screen, and lens memory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Craig Peer said:


> I had Kris Deering do 4 separate calibrations to do this - 16:9 HDR, 16:9 SDR, 2.35:1 HDR, 2.35:1 SDR. Those are in my RS4500.


Is that primarily because you have 2 screens? Are they the same material? Kris just did 2 for my setup (HDR, SDR) as I have a 16:9 screen and use top masking for 2.35 material.


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *FW 100220
> - Posted 101620 *
> Fix for some Pro's getting a green/purple screen with some sources at power on (seen here on a 4244 with Nvidia Shield at 4k60).
> Adds global disable/enable for Darbee and Sharpness into menu under _*Global: Video: Features*_ .
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
> _Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


Have this issue with K-scape twice so good this will hope resolve the issue 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

I watched Prometheus in 4K UHD from K Escape - the picture with latest Lumagen Firmware was stunning.
Read the 4K UHD Disc review on doblu.com and the reviewer was complaining about ringing and banding etc... but looks like the Lumagen Magic removed all the anomalies in my setup.


----------



## ShaharT

I've just placed an order for my second Lumagen! This time _not_ for my Sony 995 projector. This one for a Sony Bravia 75" tv. It has such a great view, I find it hard to watch my projector any more... sad.

It also has such a great set of apps built-in: from Netflix to Tidal. Is there a way to pass the built-in video from the tv through the Lumagen? I suspect not, and it's a shame! It means I'll revert to an external Apple TV or another streamer instead of the very convenient built-in apps (one click on the Bravia remote, and I'm in Netflix, and it also has a supposedly Netflix calibrated mode for the Bravia.

I'm getting the second Lumagen because I guess I'm addicted to it, and as much as it's convenient to use the built-in apps, and the image quality is stunning, I want to calibrate it via Lumagen as well.

p.s. I hope the Sony GTZ380 will bring back to the home theater the same wow effect I've had from the Sony OLED. I thought I've had the most amazing PQ in it, that is - until the OLED got in place.


----------



## audioguy

ShaharT said:


> I've just placed an order for my second Lumagen! This time _not_ for my Sony 995 projector. This one for a Sony Bravia 75" tv. It has such a great view, I find it hard to watch my projector any more... sad.


Interesting. Certainly the brightness and crispness of the image on a flat panel TV can be addictive, but I am way more than willing to give up a bit of that for the immersiveness provided the much larger screen size possible from a projection system. In fact, not even close.


----------



## ShaharT

audioguy said:


> Interesting. Certainly the brightness and crispness of the image on a flat panel TV can be addictive, but I am way more than willing to give up a bit of that for the immersiveness provided the much larger screen size possible from a projection system. In fact, not even close.


It's in my bedroom, so the 75" feels like 150" in terms of how close I am to it. My first encounter with a high-end OLED, and I'm just blown away. I'm just afraid all the built-in apps are invisible to Lumagen, and I'll be sorry to give up on the ease of use of them. Sony really did an outstanding job there.


----------



## GeorgeHolland

ShaharT said:


> I've just placed an order for my second Lumagen! This time _not_ for my Sony 995 projector. This one for a Sony Bravia 75" tv. It has such a great view, I find it hard to watch my projector any more... sad.
> 
> It also has such a great set of apps built-in: from Netflix to Tidal. Is there a way to pass the built-in video from the tv through the Lumagen? I suspect not, and it's a shame! It means I'll revert to an external Apple TV or another streamer instead of the very convenient built-in apps (one click on the Bravia remote, and I'm in Netflix, and it also has a supposedly Netflix calibrated mode for the Bravia.
> 
> I'm getting the second Lumagen because I guess I'm addicted to it, and as much as it's convenient to use the built-in apps, and the image quality is stunning, I want to calibrate it via Lumagen as well.
> 
> p.s. I hope the Sony GTZ380 will bring back to the home theater the same wow effect I've had from the Sony OLED. I thought I've had the most amazing PQ in it, that is - until the OLED got in place.


Which Sony model and did you mean 77"? I also just got an OLED, the LG 77 CX. After the fact I wondered how I would have liked the Sony because I read it handles motion a little better and I watch a lot of sports. I can find no fault with motion handling on the LG so no buyers remorse. I'm watching Louisville vs. Notre Dame in 4K UHD on my CX as I type and it looks amazing.

I didn't consider adding another Radiance Pro for my OLED but had asked how it would work. I was told there are only a few benefits and there could be more disadvantages. Dolby Vision is one that stands out. I don't mean to question your decision and am a big Lumagen fan myself. 

I have had various models of Lumagen processors in my Theater for many years and currently use a Lumagen Radiance Pro with my JVC projector in my basement theater. As good as OLED is, for new Blu-Ray movies I like the Theaters more immersive experience. 

The link below mentions similar thoughts; don't mind the pre-view, the new forum is odd.









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Ideally the calibrator would measure peak nits off the screen during the calibration/install. Then ratios are used that are extrapolated from that value in the DISPLAY MAX LIGHT and also with the LOW RATIO settings. These can be seasoned to taste based on the preferences of the client or using...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## ShaharT

GeorgeHolland said:


> Which Sony model and did you mean 77"? I also just got an OLED, the LG 77 CX. After the fact I wondered how I would have liked the Sony because I read it handles motion a little better and I watch a lot of sports. I can find no fault with motion handling on the LG so no buyers remorse. I'm watching Louisville vs. Notre Dame in 4K UHD on my CX as I type and it looks amazing.
> 
> I didn't consider adding another Radiance Pro for my OLED but had asked how it would work. I was told there are only a few benefits and there could be more disadvantages. Dolby Vision is one that stands out. I don't mean to question your decision and am a big Lumagen fan myself.
> 
> I have had various models of Lumagen processors in my Theater for many years and currently use a Lumagen Radiance Pro with my JVC projector in my basement theater. As good as OLED is, for new Blu-Ray movies I like the Theaters more immersive experience.
> 
> The link below mentions similar thoughts; don't mind the pre-view, the new forum is odd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Ideally the calibrator would measure peak nits off the screen during the calibration/install. Then ratios are used that are extrapolated from that value in the DISPLAY MAX LIGHT and also with the LOW RATIO settings. These can be seasoned to taste based on the preferences of the client or using...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Thanks good points! This model: Sony A9G / AG9 Master Series OLED review


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Is that primarily because you have 2 screens? Are they the same material? Kris just did 2 for my setup (HDR, SDR) as I have a 16:9 screen and use top masking for 2.35 material.


2 screens, 2 different materials, and it takes less time to remove the lens than pull a wine cork in my setup.


----------



## Karl Maga

audioguy said:


> Interesting. Certainly the brightness and crispness of the image on a flat panel TV can be addictive, but I am way more than willing to give up a bit of that for the immersiveness provided the much larger screen size possible from a projection system. In fact, not even close.


This exactly how I feel, and why I have chosen a 144” screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro, and NX7.


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Interesting. Certainly the brightness and crispness of the image on a flat panel TV can be addictive, but I am way more than willing to give up a bit of that for the immersiveness provided the much larger screen size possible from a projection system. In fact, not even close.


Same here. I look at flat panels at Cedia and they look over cooked and " cartoony " to me, after 17 years watching a projector. Plus, any TV would need to be at least 118" wide, and that ain't going to happen anytime soon, for sane money. I'd rather drop the $ in my wine cellar .


----------



## audioguy

Mark Burton said:


> It has been zappiti excuse for a long time, they’re blaming Realtek for it, but they’re not interested in sorting.....


Maybe so but I have the same issue with a Nvidia Shield/Plex.


Karl Maga said:


> This exactly how I feel, and why I have chosen a 144” screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro, and NX7.


Just add a Panamorph and you will have the ultimate display system (you can thank me later)


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> Maybe so but I have the same issue with a Nvidia Shield/Plex.
> 
> Just add a Panamorph and you will have the ultimate display system (you can thank me later)


If you have sub issues with that set up I’d suggest user error. Subs have worked flawlessly in MKV on most other systems for a long time, including Shield/Plex. Zappiti and also Dune (IIRC) have had that issue for ages and as Mark suggests blame the SOC for the issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

steelman1991 said:


> If you have sub issues with that set up I’d suggest user error. Subs have worked flawlessly in MKV on most other systems for a long time, including Shield/Plex. Zappiti and also Dune (IIRC) have had that issue for ages and as Mark suggests blame the SOC for the issue.


If it is a user error, I'm all ears. I check the boxes for forced English subtitles prior to the rip starting. What else is there to do?


----------



## Karl Maga

audioguy said:


> Maybe so but I have the same issue with a Nvidia Shield/Plex.
> 
> Just add a Panamorph and you will have the ultimate display system (you can thank me later)


Sorry to have left that off the list; I have a DCR lens too. Starting installation of everything this week, so I’ll be enjoying it soon.


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> If it is a user error, I'm all ears. I check the boxes for forced English subtitles prior to the rip starting. What else is there to do?


If you use MakeMKV then I have never got them to set the “forced” flag in any rips I have made. After the rip I always check with media info to start with. in most cases you can identify the track with the number of captions reported in the stream. I then open the file in mkvtoolnix “header editor” and change the header in the relevant stream to “forced” and save.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

steelman1991 said:


> If you use MakeMKV then I have never got them to set the “forced” flag in any rips I have made. After the rip I always check with media info to start with. in most cases you can identify the track with the number of captions reported in the stream. I then open the file in mkvtoolnix “header editor” and change the header in the relevant stream to “forced” and save.


Thanks for the heads up. Wished I had known this about 5 or 6 years ago when I started ripping using MakeMKV!! 

SubTitles, fortunately, have not been a huge deal for us, and on those very few occasions where they should clearly be displayed but are not, I go grab the disc. But now that you have shared this with me, I will use this approach for future rips.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> 2 screens, 2 different materials, and it takes less time to remove the lens than pull a wine cork in my setup.


But much longer than a screw top............


----------



## Lasalle

audioguy said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Wished I had known this about 5 or 6 years ago when I started ripping using MakeMKV!!
> 
> SubTitles, fortunately, have not been a huge deal for us, and on those very few occasions where they should clearly be displayed but are not, I go grab the disc. But now that you have shared this with me, I will use this approach for future rips.


Ziddo has fixed this for iso rips, I believe the new Dunes have as well.


----------



## audioguy

All of my rips are MKV.


----------



## steelman1991

Lasalle said:


> Ziddo has fixed this for iso rips, I believe the new Dunes have as well.


Sadly neither have. Very hit and miss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> But much longer than a screw top............


True, but I have very few of those, other than French rose in the summer!


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> True, but I have very few of those, other than French rose in the summer!


Also, some really superb white wines from New Zealand & Australia............


----------



## gadgetfreaky

Was watching morning show on apple tv 4k and picture keeps dropping. . Anyone know the fix?


----------



## mandragora

Hello all, 
I've been a Lumagen user for years (started loong time ago with a mini3D  ) has anybody compared RadiancePro upscaling to 4K from 1080p with AI based NVidia shield one ?


----------



## audioguy

I have both. The new Radiance firmware takes upscaling to a new level, but I have bypassed the Shields for quite some time. And that would be my recommendation.


----------



## mandragora

audioguy said:


> I have both. The new Radiance firmware takes upscaling to a new level, but I have bypassed the Shields for quite some time. And that would be my recommendation.


Understood thanks for the suggestion. I've too disabled shield upscaling (I've been using kodi white list for quite a while now) I was just curious if there was and evident benefit in using NVidia AI based upscaling .

Thanks again and have a nice day


----------



## dgkula

Mike Garrett said:


> Great, because I was getting this.


Me too - have been rebooting the Shield to address. Will be great if this fixes it!


----------



## Mike Garrett

dgkula said:


> Me too - have been rebooting the Shield to address. Will be great if this fixes it!


Have not seen the green screen issue since the update.


----------



## bobof

mandragora said:


> Understood thanks for the suggestion. I've too disabled shield upscaling (I've been using kodi white list for quite a while now) I was just curious if there was and evident benefit in using NVidia AI based upscaling .
> 
> Thanks again and have a nice day


The AI upscaling isn't very natural at all, I'd steer well clear; the "AI" bit is basically a severe sharpening algo.
The Enhanced upscaler looks OK, the AI enhanced is pretty rough looking - way too edgy and overdone, even on the lowest setting.


----------



## bjorg

Is there a way to copy an input label across all 4 memories? It's rather tedious to re-enter it for each.


----------



## SJHT

Try this....

Lumagen Radiance Control Application by Sergey Kravchenko


----------



## Wayne Z

HDCP 2.2 Problems
I received my 2020 Roku Ultra on 10/17/20. Its connected to a Lumagen Radiance Pro. When I setup the display type from the Roku settings menu, I get the message that the HDMI cable and/or the Radiance are not HDCP 2.2 compliant, and the Roku defaults to 1080P video. I have two other 4K devices (Apple TV 4k and an Oppo 203) connected to the Lumagen with exactly the same kind of cables, and there is no problem with HDCP 2.2. What is going on with the Roku?


----------



## wl1

Wayne Z said:


> HDCP 2.2 Problems
> I received my 2020 Roku Ultra on 10/17/20. Its connected to a Lumagen Radiance Pro. When I setup the display type from the Roku settings menu, I get the message that the HDMI cable and/or the Radiance are not HDCP 2.2 compliant, and the Roku defaults to 1080P video. I have two other 4K devices (Apple TV 4k and an Oppo 203) connected to the Lumagen with exactly the same kind of cables, and there is no problem with HDCP 2.2. What is going on with the Roku?


Perhaps the 4K Menu uses the highest bandwidth (Oppo originally had a similar issue until FW update)? As a diagnostic check, hook it straight to your display and check. If that is fine, I would swap out the cable (even if same type) to rule out marginal cables. Lumagen give a lot of advice about length of cables. You could also try connecting it to the Oppo Input, and use Oppo Extended Info Display to help debug this. You can use HDMI Bypass too.

BTW x are you connected to 9Ghz input card?


----------



## gadgetfreaky

gadgetfreaky said:


> Was watching morning show on apple tv 4k and picture keeps dropping. . Anyone know the fix?


Not sure if it's the show. Was watching the morning show . Drops at random times like an hdmi sync . Picture goes black audio drops and it comes back . From 2 min to 20 min I can't figure out what's causing it . I don't have this issue with the Nvidia. I haven't been using the appletv4k in a while. I have the chroma 444.


----------



## tigerhonaker

*New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series*

Lumagen Radiance Pro "Owners" a Very-very simple question for you.
Tomorrow morning around 8 PM my Lumagen Model 4242 is being installed.
It would be really nice if I could get the answer to the following.

When it's installed can the tech simply turn it on and *NOT* do *ANY* calibrations at All ???

So that I can still use the HT until my Calibrator comes on Monday 26th & 27th.

Surely a few of you know the answer to the above I hope.

I should have mentioned that I want to remove the Pull-Our Rail-System and place back in storage.
I won't be able to do that if I have to leave the Lumagen UN-Plugged until Chad B arrives Monday.






Thanks guys,
Terry


----------



## Ash Sharma

tigerhonaker said:


> *New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series*
> 
> When it's installed can the tech simply turn it on and *NOT* do *ANY* calibrations at All ???
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


Terry,
I got to tell you.... I love your posts
Your posts have their own unique thumbprint.
Please keep posting and I look forward to your reading your posts.
And make sure you are using Lumagen approved HDMI cables to avoid headaches from sources.
Ash


----------



## garyolearysteele

tigerhonaker said:


> *New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series*
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro "Owners" a Very-very simple question for you.
> Tomorrow morning around 8 PM my Lumagen Model 4242 is being installed.
> It would be really nice if I could get the answer to the following.
> 
> When it's installed can the tech simply turn it on and *NOT* do *ANY* calibrations at All ???
> 
> So that I can still use the HT until my Calibrator comes on Monday 26th & 27th.
> 
> Surely a few of you know the answer to the above I hope.
> 
> I should have mentioned that I want to remove the Pull-Our Rail-System and place back in storage.
> I won't be able to do that if I have to leave the Lumagen UN-Plugged until Chad B arrives Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


Yes you can, I did, just plug everything in where it needs to go then you might need to use the lumagen remote to switch things rather than whatever control system you have until that is changed over. Keep in mind that if you plan to control via a serial cable you might want to get that plugged in before it’s more difficult to access. The tone mapping can be setup easy enough since it’s only max light you need to set. If you scroll back in this thread there is a post by Jim of lumagen that lists a time stamp in The Meg you can use to set the max light by eye alone.. if you don’t have that then you can set it as a movie runs and see which looks right.. 

Also, you’ll want to make sure the USB is plugged in and the other end is somewhere you can access so updates are easier, unless you can get to the back of it or remove from your rack easily.


----------



## tigerhonaker

garyolearysteele said:


> Yes you can, I did, just plug everything in where it needs to go then you might need to use the lumagen remote to switch things rather than whatever control system you have until that is changed over. Keep in mind that if you plan to control via a serial cable you might want to get that plugged in before it’s more difficult to access. The tone mapping can be setup easy enough since it’s only max light you need to set. If you scroll back in this thread there is a post by Jim of lumagen that lists a time stamp in The Meg you can use to set the max light by eye alone.. if you don’t have that then you can set it as a movie runs and see which looks right..
> 
> Also, you’ll want to make sure the USB is plugged in and the other end is somewhere you can access so updates are easier, unless you can get to the back of it or remove from your rack easily.


All switching will remain with the Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
I've decided not to use the Lumagen for switching.
I want to see what I'm doing on the screen as I do right now so will keep the switching with the Marantz.

If I understand you the answer is ............. Yes ???
Just let the tech hook it all up and turn the Lumagen on and I can still use the system.
Then Chad will be here Monday morning at 8 AM to start the Calibrating for Both the Audio & Video

Terry


----------



## woofer

tigerhonaker said:


> Just let the tech hook it all up and turn the Lumagen on and I can still use the system.
> 
> 
> Terry


My advice is..... NO !!........wait till Chad arrives....

Without ANY configuration to the Lumagen and your Z1/RS4500 , you will gain nothing .......just wait till Chad arrives to set everything up properly..


----------



## desertdome

tigerhonaker said:


> When it's installed can the tech simply turn it on and *NOT* do *ANY* calibrations at All ???
> 
> Thanks guys,
> Terry


Yes, it will work just fine. I use it like this frequently when testing source/sink settings or connecting various displays. You will need to have a USB cable attached for easy firmware updates and for calibration.


----------



## Mike_WI

desertdome said:


> Yes, it will work just fine. I use it like this frequently when testing source/sink settings or connecting various displays. You will need to have a USB cable attached for easy firmware updates and for calibration.


@tigerhonaker -

My photos in my HT link are no longer present, but here is an old picture.
I have a USB to a front plate on Middle Atlantic rack to make USB FW updates easier.

EDIT: old (non-USB !!! picture). New, fast pic added.


----------



## steelman1991

I hope you’re not trying to use USB’s to those ports 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tigerhonaker

desertdome said:


> Yes, it will work just fine. I use it like this frequently when testing source/sink settings or connecting various displays. You will need to have a USB cable attached for easy firmware updates and for calibration.





Mike_WI said:


> @tigerhonaker -
> 
> My photos in my HT link are no longer present, but here is an old picture.
> I have a USB to a front plate on Middle Atlantic rack to make USB FW updates easier.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3048782


Thanks guys I just texted Jason (Tech) he will be bringing an Extra USB and leave it plugged into the USB Port on the rear of the Lumagen.
That way New Up-Dates will not require me setting up the Pull-Out rails.



Thanks,
Terry


----------



## Mike_WI

steelman1991 said:


> I hope you’re not trying to use USB’s to those ports
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oops!
Old picture. Before I installed the USB.
Ha.


----------



## bearcat2002

I have a usb cord permanently attached to a Mac mini (with internet) so I can be at work and get on Jump Desktop, turn on my system via Harmony, then update anytime, anywhere. Slick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

tigerhonaker said:


> Thanks guys I just texted Jason (Tech) he will be bringing an Extra USB and leave it plugged into the USB Port on the rear of the Lumagen.
> That way New Up-Dates will not require me setting up the Pull-Out rails.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Terry


It should have come with a USB cable just for that purpose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tigerhonaker

tigerhonaker said:


> Thanks guys I just texted Jason (Tech) he will be bringing an Extra USB and leave it plugged into the USB Port on the rear of the Lumagen.
> That way New Up-Dates will not require me setting up the Pull-Out rails.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Terry





Craig Peer said:


> It should have come with a USB cable just for that purpose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Craig,

You know your right it does come with one USB cable in the box with the remote, power-supply and Rack-Ears for Rack Mounting.

I haven't opened that box yet.
I recall seeing that in one of the videos I watched.
Jason and I will check for the USB cable in the morning *thanks for the Heads-Up and reminder*. ✅






Terry


----------



## blake

Any tips to enable use of the IR remote if your Lumagen is in another room / rack mounted ?


----------



## Die Zwei

blake said:


> Any tips to enable use of the IR remote if your Lumagen is in another room / rack mounted ?


The Lumagen has a port for an external IR-sensor. Place the sensor in your cinema room and plug the connector into the IR-port on the backside of the Lumagen.


----------



## blake

hockyAVS said:


> The Lumagen has a port for an external IR-sensor. Place the sensor in your cinema room and plug the connector into the IR-port on the backside of the Lumagen.


Hmmm. I wonder if there is a third party wireless solution (ex IR to RF) so I don’t have to run a 50 foot cable.


----------



## raheaps

Check out Amazon for IR repeater. I have used one similar to the Sewell.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Any tips to enable use of the IR remote if your Lumagen is in another room / rack mounted ?


Use a Harmony remote?


----------



## SJHT

Maybe by design, but wish there was an option to allow the front IR receiver to work even though you are using the back IR plug or at least an option. SJ


----------



## Mike Garrett

garyolearysteele said:


> Yes you can, I did, just plug everything in where it needs to go then you might need to use the lumagen remote to switch things rather than whatever control system you have until that is changed over. Keep in mind that if you plan to control via a serial cable you might want to get that plugged in before it’s more difficult to access. The tone mapping can be setup easy enough since it’s only max light you need to set. If you scroll back in this thread there is a post by Jim of lumagen that lists a time stamp in The Meg you can use to set the max light by eye alone.. if you don’t have that then you can set it as a movie runs and see which looks right..
> 
> Also, you’ll want to make sure the USB is plugged in and the other end is somewhere you can access so updates are easier, unless you can get to the back of it or remove from your rack easily.


Terry is running everything through his AVR, then to Lumagen and projector. So he would just need to use one input on the Lumagen.

Added
See this was already answered.


----------



## Mike Garrett

blake said:


> Hmmm. I wonder if there is a third party wireless solution (ex IR to RF) so I don’t have to run a 50 foot cable.


If your theater has been there for a few years, you might have some old component cables in place. If so, those work well for transmitting IR signals. I use a Harmony, but also set up an IR repeater for my HT, since my equipment is in mechanical room below the theater. Use the component cables to extend the IR sensors to my rack. My Harmony also sends the signal through the IR system. This way I can use the Harmony for daily operation of my system and not have to point the remote and when needed, I can pick up any of the manufacturer remotes and use them for any needed programing. I also have a USB extension run to my room, so I can sit in my room and do the firmware updates for Lumagen.


----------



## sor

Something like this?

Sewell Direct BlastIR Wireless Pro IR Repeater, Remote Control Extender Kit (IR Emitter and Receiver) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074CNWJZV


----------



## SJHT

Mike Garrett said:


> I also have a USB extension run to my room, so I can sit in my room and do the firmware updates for Lumagen.


Same here. Also use whenever Kris Deering visits! Calibrators will need to connect to your Lumagen to their laptops (while also having meters attached).... SJ


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> Maybe by design, but wish there was an option to allow the front IR receiver to work even though you are using the back IR plug or at least an option. SJ


I'm with you on this 100%! If it's a software thing, I'd love to have the option of keep the front IR receiver enabled, even when the back IR socket is in use.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Thursday 22nd of October,

Lumagen has been installed guys .................









tigerhonaker's Home Theater phase # 1of being...


Guys, Just saw this so sharing with you. Roku launches new Ultra player with Dolby Vision & Atmos 29 Sep 2020 | Rasmus Larsen | https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1601355943#:~:text=Roku%20has%20launched%20an%20upgraded,Roku%20Streambar%20was%20also%20announced. 3...




www.avsforum.com





Terry


----------



## sunnya23

I had a question regarding lip-sync with the Lumagen. Whenever I'm watching any content, I notice a slight video delay. Went through the lip-sync menu and saw a video delay of 44ms. It's not THAT noticeable but my brain knows it's there and I'm always paying attention to it rather than enjoying the movie. It is VERY noticeable when watching 4k HDR content on Netflix though or whenever someone is speaking really fast. I have every source plugged into the Lumagen and then the lumagen to the projector. Should I be adding audio delay from my receiver? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Mike Garrett

sor said:


> Something like this?
> 
> Sewell Direct BlastIR Wireless Pro IR Repeater, Remote Control Extender Kit (IR Emitter and Receiver) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074CNWJZV


No. Something even cheaper. 
https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Product...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


----------



## Mike Garrett

SJHT said:


> Same here. Also use whenever Kris Deering visits! Calibrators will need to connect to your Lumagen to their laptops (while also having meters attached).... SJ


Yep, Kris used it when he was here.


----------



## sor

Mike Garrett said:


> No. Something even cheaper.
> https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Product...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


They asked for wireless. I’m sure there are probably cheaper wireless options as well, this one is highly reviewed by many.


----------



## Sandel

sunnya23 said:


> I had a question regarding lip-sync with the Lumagen. Whenever I'm watching any content, I notice a slight video delay. Went through the lip-sync menu and saw a video delay of 44ms. It's not THAT noticeable but my brain knows it's there and I'm always paying attention to it rather than enjoying the movie. It is VERY noticeable when watching 4k HDR content on Netflix though or whenever someone is speaking really fast. I have every source plugged into the Lumagen and then the lumagen to the projector. Should I be adding audio delay from my receiver? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.


You should switch on EDID delay reporting. Then it should sync properly. It could help to turn the genlock option on, too, if you notice a visible delay.


----------



## sunnya23

Sandel said:


> You should switch on EDID delay reporting. Then it should sync properly. It could help to turn the genlock option on, too, if you notice a visible delay.


Thank you very much for the reply. I'll try turning on EDID delay reporting. It wouldn't mess with anything else in the chain would it? I wonder why my calibrator didn't turn it on to begin with. Also, what does turning on genlock do exactly? Sorry, I don't wanna mess with any of the settings the calibrator did.


----------



## Sandel

sunnya23 said:


> Thank you very much for the reply. I'll try turning on EDID delay reporting. It wouldn't mess with anything else in the chain would it? I wonder why my calibrator didn't turn it on to begin with.


It won't mess with anything, no worries. It just reads the delay that the chain reports and adjusts it accordingly. Try switching genlock to "on" as well. This will sync video and audio even further.


----------



## sunnya23

Sandel said:


> It won't mess with anything, no worries. It just reads the delay that the chain reports and adjusts it accordingly. Try switching genlock to "on" as well. This will sync video and audio even further.


Awesome. You have been very helpful. I appreciate it. I'll let you know if doing both things helped.


----------



## Sandel

sunnya23 said:


> Awesome. You have been very helpful. I appreciate it. I'll let you know if doing both things helped.


You're welcome.  Just a little hint: When playing with any values in the Radiance, I'd suggest to take screenshots with your mobile first to conserve the status quo. Could come in handy if you ever get lost in the deeper menues...


----------



## sunnya23

Sandel said:


> You're welcome.  Just a little hint: When playing with any values in the Radiance, I'd suggest to take screenshots with your mobile first to conserve the status quo. Could come in handy if you ever get lost in the deeper menues...


Great advice. Makes sense. I can always refer back to screenshots that way.


----------



## Nima

Does EIDID delay reporting and Genlock do anything when my Audio goes out by the second HDMI output from my Pana UB824? What shall I do in that case?


----------



## Sandel

Nima said:


> Does EIDID delay reporting and Genlock do anything when my Audio goes out by the second HDMI output from my Pana UB824? What shall I do in that case?


Not totally sure what the question is, but if you intend to split audio and video you could potentially run into sync issues which means you might get some delay with two separate processing devices in the chain.
I'd recommend turning "EDID delay reporting" an Genlock ON. If you still experience visible delay, you could turn "EDID delay reporting" OFF and adjust the delay value manually. Please keep in mind that we're talking milliseconds here.


----------



## Nima

I am using a Panasonic UB 820 which has a seperate HMDI Audio out. So should I put the reported 44ms into my AVR? I have genlock on.


----------



## Sandel

Nima said:


> I am using a Panasonic UB 820 which has a seperate HMDI Audio out. So should I put the reported 44ms into my AVR? I have genlock on.


No. No need to transfer the indicated figure to your AVR. Turning on "EDID delay reporting" means that the Radiance will adjust the delay accordingly. Just do so and you're good to go.


----------



## sunnya23

Sandel said:


> It won't mess with anything, no worries. It just reads the delay that the chain reports and adjusts it accordingly. Try switching genlock to "on" as well. This will sync video and audio even further.


So when I go to the EDID delay reporting both the audio delay to report and video delay to report option are not greyed out anymore. Should I be matching the 44ms video delay and adding 44ms to audio delay reporting or is it enough to just turn on EDID delay reporting alone. Also, when going to the Genlock on option, there is a 24/25hz option and a genlock for all sources option. Which one should I be selecting?


----------



## Sandel

sunnya23 said:


> So when I go to the EDID delay reporting both the audio delay to report and video delay to report option are not greyed out anymore. Should I be matching the 44ms video delay and adding 44ms to audio delay reporting or is it enough to just turn on EDID delay reporting alone. Also, when going to the Genlock on option, there is an on option for 24/25hz option or a genlock for all sources option. Which one should I be selecting?


You simply turn on EDID delay reporting and check with any lipsync critical footage if the 44ms are sufficient. You may adjust the values as well according to your findings.
Just be aware that a value of 44ms more or less represents just one single frame of video footage (1000ms / 24 = 41.66ms), so to get perfect lipsync you may need to play around with this a bit.
With genlock on, it depends on what framerates and/or sources you want to have genlocked. For starters, I'd go with "all sources".


----------



## sunnya23

Sandel said:


> You simply turn on EDID delay reporting and check with any lipsync critical footage if the 44ms are sufficient. You may adjust the values as well according to your findings.
> Just be aware that a value of 44ms more or less represents just one single frame of video footage (1000ms / 24 = 41.66ms), so to get perfect lipsync you may need to play around with this a bit.
> With genlock on, it depends on what framerates and/or sources you want to have genlocked. For starters, I'd go with "all sources".


Gotcha. Thanks again for the help and quick replies. Gives me peace of mind now with this pesky lip sync issue.


----------



## Sandel

sunnya23 said:


> Gotcha. Thanks again for the help and quick replies. Gives me peace of mind now with this pesky lip sync issue.


One more thing though: Audio delay can be different from source to source. So you might need to adjust different sources independently... Good luck!


----------



## darksets

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *FW 100220
> - Posted 101620 *
> Adds global disable/enable for Darbee and Sharpness into menu under _*Global: Video: Features*_ .
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
> _Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


Well, well, well... So the Lumagen people thought it was a worthwhile menu option.

By the way, have you changed anything about the Auto-Aspect feature? I tried to watch "The Hidden Fortress" on the Criterion Channel, which has the unfortunate property that a small portion of the subtitles is below the image. The aspect ratio keeps changing as subtitles appear and disappear, making it impossible to watch. I have watched the movie before and didn't have any such problems. So either something has changed in the auto-aspect algo or Criterion moved the subtitles down which seems unlikely.


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> Well, well, well... So the Lumagen people thought it was a worthwhile menu option.
> 
> By the way, have you changed anything about the Auto-Aspect feature? I tried to watch "The Hidden Fortress" on the Criterion Channel, which has the unfortunate property that a small portion of the subtitles is below the image. The aspect ratio keeps changing as subtitles appear and disappear, making it impossible to watch. I have watched the movie before and didn't have any such problems. So either something has changed in the auto-aspect algo or Criterion moved the subtitles down which seems unlikely.


if you enable "sticky aspect override" then the first time a movie causes a false-trigger (well, it's a real trigger, but you didn't want it...!  ) you can press the aspect button in question and the ratio will stick until the next major change (usually something like an HDMI mode switch, input change, etc).


----------



## wjchan

darksets said:


> Well, well, well... So the Lumagen people thought it was a worthwhile menu option.



The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets most of the grease
The baby that cries the loudest gets the milk.


----------



## darksets

wjchan said:


> The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets most of the grease
> The baby that cries the loudest gets the milk.


The only problem with your theory is that I had already made the adjustments the hard way and in fact I had stated that there was no reason for me to request the feature. So they must have added it because they thought other people might want it.


----------



## darksets

bobof said:


> if you enable "sticky aspect override" then the first time a movie causes a false-trigger (well, it's a real trigger, but you didn't want it...!  ) you can press the aspect button in question and the ratio will stick until the next major change (usually something like an HDMI mode switch, input change, etc).


I have "sticky aspect override" enabled already, which I think is a must. The problem is neither of the two aspect ratios it oscillates between is satisfactory. One chops off the bottom of the subtitles, the other makes the image very small. What would be cool is if they could crop the black area just below the subtitles. I'm guessing that's pretty challenging but it would help in other situations too. Some TV channels have the annoying habit of sticking their logo at the bottom of the image but not within, which again fools the auto-aspect algo. See attached picture.


----------



## DenverMDM

darksets said:


> I have "sticky aspect override" enabled already, which I think is a must. The problem is neither of the two aspect ratios it oscillates between is satisfactory. One chops off the bottom of the subtitles, the other makes the image very small. What would be cool is if they could crop the black area just below the subtitles. I'm guessing that's pretty challenging but it would help in other situations too. Some TV channels have the annoying habit of sticking their logo at the bottom of the image but not within, which again fools the auto-aspect algo. See attached picture.
> 
> View attachment 3049509


Does your player subtitle shift? This will raise the text to aboid setting off the Lumagen’s aspect change. I watch a lot of older foreign films and this feature is indispensable. You can do it within the video calibration section of Kodi and the Oppo has a dedicated setting for it just to name a few.


----------



## sunnya23

darksets said:


> I have "sticky aspect override" enabled already, which I think is a must. The problem is neither of the two aspect ratios it oscillates between is satisfactory. One chops off the bottom of the subtitles, the other makes the image very small. What would be cool is if they could crop the black area just below the subtitles. I'm guessing that's pretty challenging but it would help in other situations too. Some TV channels have the annoying habit of sticking their logo at the bottom of the image but not within, which again fools the auto-aspect algo. See attached picture.
> 
> View attachment 3049509


This is why I can’t watch foreign films or films with subtitles on Netflix in scope with my setup. Unless I adjust the aspect ratio to 16:9 but then I’m playing a much smaller image. I searched for subtitle positioning for Netflix, tried going small font but it doesn’t help. Auto aspect makes the image smaller. Similar issue with Hulu originals, they stupidly place the logo at the bottom right in the black bar section and auto aspect makes the image smaller


----------



## darksets

DenverMDM said:


> Does your player subtitle shift? This will raise the text to aboid setting off the Lumagen’s aspect change. I watch a lot of older foreign films and this feature is indispensable. You can do it within the video calibration section of Kodi and the Oppo has a dedicated setting for it just to name a few.


I have of course adjusted the subtible position in my Oppo. However, in this case I'm using a Roku which doesn't allow you to adjust subtitle position as far as I know.


----------



## DenverMDM

darksets said:


> I have of course adjusted the subtible position in my Oppo. However, in this case I'm using a Roku which doesn't allow you to adjust subtitle position as far as I know.


I figured you did but just wanted to mention. Curious why you are watching using your Roku instead of the Oppo especially considering the uptick in picture quality with the Oppo? Unless you're streaming Hidden Fortress?


----------



## darksets

DenverMDM said:


> I figured you did but just wanted to mention. Curious why you are watching using your Roku instead of the Oppo especially considering the uptick in picture quality with the Oppo? Unless you're streaming Hidden Fortress?


Yes, I was streaming it from the Criterion Channel.


----------



## ShaharT

sunnya23 said:


> This is why I can’t watch foreign films or films with subtitles on Netflix in scope with my setup. Unless I adjust the aspect ratio to 16:9 but then I’m playing a much smaller image. I searched for subtitle positioning for Netflix, tried going small font but it doesn’t help. Auto aspect makes the image smaller. Similar issue with Hulu originals, they stupidly place the logo at the bottom right in the black bar section and auto aspect makes the image smaller


Same issue. The way I 'solved' it is that I use sticky-override, set scope movies to 2.35/2.4, and to adjust for subtitles showing only partly (typically the second line of the subtitles is below the scope area) in the Input->Picture-Sizing I use vertical shift to move the entire video up by about 90 (not sure if it's pixels or lines). I do lose this part from the top, but it solves everything else - I get two lines of subtitles, full-scope view, and no annoying flips between 16:9 and 2.35 whenever subtitles appear/disappear.

If only Netflix or other streaming providers allowed us to adjust subtitle positions... or If there was some magic way for Lumagen to auto-magically solve this. But for now, that's my 'manual' workaround, which is satisfactory.


----------



## Nima

Sandel said:


> No. No need to transfer the indicated figure to your AVR. Turning on "EDID delay reporting" means that the Radiance will adjust the delay accordingly. Just do so and you're good to go.


I have done that but I would like to understand what it does.

Does it report back the delay in this case of 44ms to my blu rayer player? Which in return will adjust audio out on the blu ray players second HDMI port (audio only) according to this delay?


----------



## garyolearysteele

Hey,

Quick question before I contact Lumagen support. I have an Xbox one X and I’ve set it to disable HDR since it seems to be the better option than tone mapping HDR back to SDR.

However, there is an issue with RGB range. My projector is set to auto (options being auto, limited and full). For movies via my other sources I believe it needs to be limited, which I think is what’s happening. With the consoles though, I want the full range, problem is the projector doesn’t switch and stays on limited unless I specifically select full. 

I wondered if this was a flag that is sent via HDMI that isn’t being sent or if it’s possible to force it for a particular input?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Gary

You assign a new STYLE setting to that input and memory and set it's output to full range RGB. If you email me youe config i can do it for you. Just let me know input used for XBOX


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> I have "sticky aspect override" enabled already, which I think is a must. The problem is neither of the two aspect ratios it oscillates between is satisfactory. One chops off the bottom of the subtitles, the other makes the image very small. What would be cool is if they could crop the black area just below the subtitles. I'm guessing that's pretty challenging but it would help in other situations too. Some TV channels have the annoying habit of sticking their logo at the bottom of the image but not within, which again fools the auto-aspect algo. See attached picture.
> 
> View attachment 3049509


If you set your zoom steps to the smallest setting, when watching such a title you can set to the slightly too small ratio and then zoom up a click or two, that might get you a more appropriate sized image between ratios.

You could also configure a memory to have the aspect / image positioning configured slightly differently. This would allow you to zoom and offset slightly and it would happen automatically.

Unfortunately pretty much anything you do with respect to this kind of effectively broken content is going to involve some user interaction as I see it I'm sure you can see the problem here is with the content and not the processor.

When you consider your examples, the time horizons involved are huge, so there are at least two issues:
1) there isn't a right answer (as some users might want to see the subtitles, some might want it cropped hard to the border video frame)
2) the more special cases you deal with the more broken things may behave elsewhere.

There are ways to configure the processor to achieve what you're trying to do, they're just a bit more effort.


----------



## docrog

Has Lumagen ever provided frame interpolation (equivalent of JVC's Clear Motion Drive [C.M.D.]) or other "fix" for motion blur as an option in video output?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Has Lumagen ever provided frame interpolation (equivalent of JVC's Clear Motion Drive [C.M.D.]) or other "fix" for motion blur as an option in video output?


No


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> No


Thanks. Question: doesn't frame interpolation/buffering fall within the defined parameters of video rendering? Why should that function be relegated to the projector/display?


----------



## bobof

I don't think it has any place in external processor. The panel drive electronics in the display often have access to the panels in a much more intimate way, so that makes more sense for that to be implemented at the display. Many panels are running at >60Hz and HDMI for the most part doesn't have access to these native rates (or at least the input electronics in the displays prevent access, either due to choice or bandwidth limitations).


----------



## Sandel

Nima said:


> I have done that but I would like to understand what it does.
> 
> Does it report back the delay in this case of 44ms to my blu rayer player? Which in return will adjust audio out on the blu ray players second HDMI port (audio only) according to this delay?


As of my understanding, the Radiance itself corrects the delay here. But I'm not into any details here. Maybe Jim can shed some light?


----------



## bobof

darksets said:


> The only problem with your theory is that I had already made the adjustments the hard way and in fact I had stated that there was no reason for me to request the feature. So they must have added it because they thought other people might want it.


Every silver lining a cloud, eh!


----------



## CP850-CLED

I would like to see motion-compensated frame interpolation 120 fps, for videowalls and rgb laser projectors.


----------



## docrog

A question for @jrp: There's been fanfare regarding the upcoming FPGA based Darbee processing for 4K/UHD content (in partnership with Pixelgen Design). "Pixelgen Design has partnered with DarbeeVision, developer of acclaimed video processing technology DARBEE Visual Presence (DVP™), to develop the industry’s first standalone 4K video processing solution with embedded 4K DVP technology utilizing Intel FPGAs." The Darbee Vision website currently shows Lumagen as being an OEM partner. Is there any possibility that Lumagen will add this capability to the Radiance Pro once it has been released as a stand alone product?






UHD Samples — DarbeeVision







www.darbeevision.com


----------



## Sittler27

I'm wondering which Lumagen Radiance Pro product I would need.

Current setup:
JVC NX9 with Panamorph DCR Anamorphic Lens <-Marantz SR7010 AVR <-Tivo box + Apple TV 4K + PC running MadVR/Kodi + Xbox Series X

So 4 HDMI devices.

Also, by introducing the Lumagen Radiance Pro - what performance and/or quality increases can I expect from each source signal?

Probably should also add that all my source files are high bitrate mkv based (not disc based), where I currently play them via the madVR PC.


----------



## woofer

docrog said:


> A question for @jrp: There's been fanfare regarding the upcoming FPGA based Darbee processing for 4K/UHD content (in partnership with Pixelgen Design). "Pixelgen Design has partnered with DarbeeVision, developer of acclaimed video processing technology DARBEE Visual Presence (DVP™), to develop the industry’s first standalone 4K video processing solution with embedded 4K DVP technology utilizing Intel FPGAs." The Darbee Vision website currently shows Lumagen as being an OEM partner.* Is there any possibility that Lumagen will add this capability to the Radiance Pro once it has been released as a stand alone product?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UHD Samples — DarbeeVision
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.darbeevision.com


VERY interested in this as well....


----------



## blake

woofer said:


> VERY interested in this as well....


I can’t see them charging Lumagen THAT much to license it ! After all, there entire box is $499, so one one expect licensing to be a fraction of that. 

But as Kris Deering mentioned on another thread , the memory capacity of the current Lumagen may be an issue for this type of 4K processing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi Jim,
Just wanted to get some feedback on your new sharpness feature. I absolutely love it in 4k it absolutely brings in more detail to the picture and doesn't add any type of artefacts, however on 1080p content depending on the content sometimes it adds grain artefacts however this is easily controlled , I prefer watching around 4-5 with high sensitivity for 4k and 0-2 high sensitivity for 1080p content. It no doubt brings more details into the picture and it looks just stunning. 
Lumagen Pro with Sony vw760es


http://imgur.com/a/Rss2tUV

 keep up the good work. Thank you

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi Jim,
Just wanted to get some feedback on your new sharpness feature. I absolutely love it in 4k it absolutely brings in more detail to the picture and doesn't add any type of artefacts, however on 1080p content depending on the content sometimes it adds grain artefacts however this is easily controlled , I prefer watching around 4-5 with high sensitivity for 4k and 0-2 high sensitivity for 1080p content. It no doubt brings more details into the picture and it looks just stunning. 
Lumagen Pro with Sony vw760es


http://imgur.com/a/Rss2tUV

 keep up the good work. Thank you

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Ash Sharma said:


> I watched Prometheus in 4K UHD from K Escape - the picture with latest Lumagen Firmware was stunning.
> Read the 4K UHD Disc review on doblu.com and the reviewer was complaining about ringing and banding etc... but looks like the Lumagen Magic removed all the anomalies in my setup.


Also watched this K 4K title. Stunning is the right description!


----------



## woofer

My JS-2 Linear PSU for my Lumagen from "Up-Tone Audio" arrived today........ 😁 

Only 5 days transit time from US to Aus....


----------



## bobof

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hi Jim,
> Just wanted to get some feedback on your new sharpness feature. I absolutely love it in 4k it absolutely brings in more detail to the picture and doesn't add any type of artefacts, however on 1080p content depending on the content sometimes it adds grain artefacts however this is easily controlled , I prefer watching around 4-5 with high sensitivity for 4k and 0-2 high sensitivity for 1080p content. It no doubt brings more details into the picture and it looks just stunning.
> Lumagen Pro with Sony vw760es
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/Rss2tUV
> 
> keep up the good work. Thank you
> 
> Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


Not sure what camera you took these with, but they don't do it any favours when looking at a photo on a decent size monitor (I'm assuming it is the camera, can't believe you'd have the NR up so high in the PJ!). There is some ridiculous level of noise reduction going on; it's so bad the first image actually looks like it has been put through one of those fake oil painting filters!


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

bobof said:


> Not sure what camera you took these with, but they don't do it any favours when looking at a photo on a decent size monitor (I'm assuming it is the camera, can't believe you'd have the NR up so high in the PJ!). There is some ridiculous level of noise reduction going on; it's so bad the first image actually looks like it has been put through one of those fake oil painting filters!


I agree not best camera it's the one plus phone so wouldn't rely on those images, shouldn't have provided them.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

A few days ago I asked a question which apparently flew under the radar because no one responded. So, I'll give it another go.... Since edge enhancement seems to be the end goal, what difference will be perceived by the viewer (not how the final product is actually accomplished) between Lumagen's new sharpening filter compared with sharpening provided either by a player or display? Thanks!


----------



## A7mad78

woofer said:


> My JS-2 Linear PSU for my Lumagen from "Up-Tone Audio" arrived today........
> 
> Only 5 days transit time from US to Aus....


Do you will use it for the preamp also and love to hear ur thoughts after using it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

docrog said:


> A few days ago I asked a question which apparently flew under the radar because no one responded. So, I'll give it another go.... Since edge enhancement seems to be the end goal, what difference will be perceived by the viewer (not how the final product is actually accomplished) between Lumagen's new sharpening filter compared with sharpening provided either by a player or display? Thanks!


The best answer is by comparing it yourself as all results come down to personal preference until the over-processing is glaringly obvious! From my personal experience, I like how the implementation of the sharpening and Darbee features in the Radiance Pro a lot, because they give me finer controls than what is available in the TV, for example. I've never used TV sharpening, because it always felt over-processed out of the gate. The Radiance Pro sharpening, on the other hand, is subtle enough that it improves the image in a nuanced way that is enjoyable, but not directly noticeable, which is exactly how it should be, IMHO.


----------



## loggeo

woofer said:


> My JS-2 Linear PSU for my Lumagen from "Up-Tone Audio" arrived today........ 😁
> 
> Only 5 days transit time from US to Aus....


Nice! I am using KECES P8 PSU. Happy with the performance. I find the info screen very useful.


----------



## Peule_P

loggeo said:


> Nice! I am using KECES P8 PSU. Happy with the performance. I find the info screen very useful.


how many Amps does it draw on the info screen? Have a Keces P3 and wondering if it would be powerful enough


----------



## loggeo

Peule_P said:


> how many Amps does it draw on the info screen? Have a Keces P3 and wondering if it would be powerful enough


Amps don't change when displaying the info or menu Lumagen screen. Using my Oppo 203 I see lumagen draw about 2.0-2.1A @12.1V when playing 1080p bdmv folders and 2.6-2.7A @12.1V when playing 2160p hdr content.
On stand by mode lumagen draws 0.5A


----------



## Peule_P

loggeo said:


> Amps don't change when displaying the info or menu Lumagen screen. Using my Oppo 203 I see lumagen draw about 2.0-2.1A @12.1V when playing 1080p bdmv folders and 2.6-2.7A @12.1V when playing 2160p hdr content.
> On stand by mode lumagen draws 0.5A


Yeah with info I mean the Keces LCD screen 
So maxes out at 2.7A, might be a bit short with my Keces P3 as that is rated at [email protected], better be safe than sorry and get a P8 instead then at some point, thanks!


----------



## audioguy

bjorg said:


> The best answer is by comparing it yourself as all results come down to personal preference until the over-processing is glaringly obvious! From my personal experience, I like how the implementation of the sharpening and Darbee features in the Radiance Pro a lot, because they give me finer controls than what is available in the TV, for example. I've never used TV sharpening, because it always felt over-processed out of the gate. The Radiance Pro sharpening, on the other hand, is subtle enough that it improves the image in a nuanced way that is enjoyable, but not directly noticeable, which is exactly how it should be, IMHO.


Agree. I crank each setting up individually until it is grossly over done then start backing it down until it is barely noticeable (when comparing on to off). I love these new features. What they have done for 1080P material (in addition to new upscaling) is remarkable.


----------



## audioguy

I was just watching a 16x9 movie (The Man In The Iron Mask) that I tried to use with NLS - which looked pretty natural. The issue was that it kept popping back to 16 x 9. Is there a way to "lock it" so that doesn't happen?


----------



## woofer

audioguy said:


> I was just watching a 16x9 movie (The Man In The Iron Mask) that I tried to use with NLS - which looked pretty natural. The issue was that it kept popping back to 16 x 9. Is there a way to "lock it" so that doesn't happen?


NLS makes me "Sea Sick" 😀


----------



## BrolicBeast

audioguy said:


> I was just watching a 16x9 movie (The Man In The Iron Mask) that I tried to use with NLS - which looked pretty natural. The issue was that it kept popping back to 16 x 9. Is there a way to "lock it" so that doesn't happen?


There’s a sticky option somewhere in the auto aspect menu that I think would prevent that. I’ve never used it, but I remember wondering if I needed to back during initial setup.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## BrolicBeast

woofer said:


> My JS-2 Linear PSU for my Lumagen from "Up-Tone Audio" arrived today........
> 
> Only 5 days transit time from US to Aus....


This is awesome. I just added an aftermarket shielded uber-thick power cable to my Radiance Pro’s power block. What does Up-Tone say this JS-2 Linear PSU will do for the Lumagen? (I’m familiar with benefits of clean, pure power for audio....but for video, I am completely unfamiliar with the benefits).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

woofer said:


> NLS makes me "Sea Sick" 😀


I did try it once with improper settings watching a football game and the yard lines on the field did that to me as teh camera moved.. It's not PERFECT but it works OK on some films.


----------



## EVH78

woofer said:


> NLS makes me "Sea Sick" 😀


That only happens when the center stretch is not constant at 100%. Once you set that the issue is completely gone.


----------



## Kris Deering

BrolicBeast said:


> There’s a sticky option somewhere in the auto aspect menu that I think would prevent that. I’ve never used it, but I remember wondering if I needed to back during initial setup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


NLS isn't supported with sticky function. It is a feature I've requested with Lumagen and is on their list though, so we may see that in a future update. I feel it should be handled like any other aspect as part of the sticky function.


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> That only happens when the center stretch is not constant at 100%. Once you set that the issue is completely gone.


Sounds decidedly non-non-linear then!?


----------



## MOberhardt

What is NLS?


----------



## A7mad78

MOberhardt said:


> What is NLS?


None liner stretch 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> What is NLS?


Non-Linear Stretch. It is a function in the Lumagen that allows users to have the processor "stretch" any aspect that is narrower or shorter than the aspect of their display to fill the entire screen to eliminate any black bars (whether above and below or on the sides). Rather than a simple zoom/crop, NLS does a mixture of both to try and give you a result that preserves as much of the image as possible without as many noticeable artifacts from either zooming, stretching or cropping. It can also be custom tuned on a per input basis for those that don't want to use the default NLS settings.


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> Sounds decidedly non-non-linear then!?


 Haha, you name it. 

Just saying it goes under the name of nls. And certainly it´s just zooming and cropping.


----------



## ferg2069

MHH=p


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## woofer

BrolicBeast said:


> This is awesome. I just added an aftermarket shielded uber-thick power cable to my Radiance Pro’s power block. What does Up-Tone say this JS-2 Linear PSU will do for the Lumagen? (I’m familiar with benefits of clean, pure power for audio....but for video, I am completely unfamiliar with the benefits).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I wont go into great details here in regards to the JS-2 PSU as i am very aware of the MANY sceptics that will "Jump" at the given opportunity...  

BUT!! I am VERY VERY happy with the outlay and results of the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 with my Radiance Pro....😀


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> Haha, you name it.
> 
> Just saying it goes under the name of nls. And certainly it´s just zooming and cropping.


Hehe. Arbitrary Scaling Stretch (ASS for short...)... .

My slightly non-obvious point is that if the OP on the subject was using NLS only to achieve what you describe (ie they're not using the "non linear" part of NLS), and was upset that NLS "Sticky" didn't exist, I think they could probably achieve what they want by editing the aspect ratio instead and not using the NLS function.


----------



## dlinsley

woofer said:


> I am VERY VERY happy with the outlay and results of the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 with my Radiance Pro


Have you also updated your output 18G card to one of the more recent versions with lower jitter?


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> Hehe. Arbitrary Scaling Stretch (ASS for short...)... .
> 
> My slightly non-obvious point is that if the OP on the subject was using NLS only to achieve what you describe (ie they're not using the "non linear" part of NLS), and was upset that NLS "Sticky" didn't exist, I think they could probably achieve what they want by editing the aspect ratio instead and not using the NLS function.


I was using NLS as it is defined: *NON LINEAR* STRETCH and was trying to determine if it can be locked. Given Kris's familiarity with the product, it apparently can not at this time. I have used NLS for college football games and it has never before come "un-done".


----------



## BrolicBeast

woofer said:


> I wont go into great details here in regards to the JS-2 PSU as i am very aware of the MANY sceptics that will "Jump" at the given opportunity...
> 
> BUT!! I am VERY VERY happy with the outlay and results of the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 with my Radiance Pro....😀


I definitely understand. In solidarity, I almost posted a picture of the 7AWG audiophile power cables that powered to my Xbox and PS4 (not joking) and everything else in the rack...so I'm right there with you with going a little further on the extras!

Also, to echo another comment above, have you looked at the new microwave capacitor-equipped output cards? They reduce jitter--I'm definitely ordering mine!


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> I was using NLS as it is defined: *NON LINEAR* STRETCH and was trying to determine if it can be locked. Given Kris's familiarity with the product, it apparently can not at this time. I have used NLS for college football games and it has never before come "un-done".


Sounds like you're a little out of luck for the moment then. Maybe they can add an option to make NLS sticky too.
I did think though there was an option that affected NLS and autoaspect; so you could make it use the NLS option all the time for auto aspect. "NLS when Applicable".

It strikes me that combining that function, plus the memories function, would allow you perhaps to have an autoaspect memory that always engaged NLS for narrow ratios, and another memory that didn't. Maybe...


----------



## Killroy

Hey guys,

I have finished setting up my Radiance Pro, using the Tech Tips from the Lumagen support page, the wonderful set-up and calibration guide by @giomania (dude, what an awesome guide you have collected there), and then put the finishing touches using the Control Application by @SoulOfUniverse (pretty nifty little tool). I have it running absolutely perfect (with the latest firmware) and it looks amazing with the RS3000 after recalibrating for both SDR and HDR with JVC AutoCal (3DLut will come later with ChromaPure) but I do have one question that is bugging me. Ok, maybe not bugging me but it has me confused as hell and since you guys were just talking about NLS I figure I would ask.

Since I have an sliding anamorphic lens I use the 2.35:1 stretch setting for scope (BTW, looks cleaner than the JVC stretch...probably just wishful thinking but I think it does), and then 16:9 setting for non-scope stuff. The Lumagen Tech Tip 3 made it really easy to understand the setting but here lies my question....

If I understand it correctly (and I am probably wrong) NLS is used when you want to stretch content to fit the entire screen to get rid of black bars (I am simplifying it a bit). When I used the 2.35:1 button I get perfectly stretch content for my a-lens but when I hit the 16:9 button I get a 16:9 picture that is somewhat narrower (width-wise) than 16:9. I have to use the NLS button to get the content to get back to true 16:9. I have gone back and checked my settings with the Tech Tip #3 from Lumagen and I have it set up just like they say to do it so I am assuming that I either set something else wrong (in one of my other settings) or I don't understand why I have a two-step process to get back to 16:9.

So, did I screw up something or is this the normal way it works?


----------



## woofer

BrolicBeast said:


> I definitely understand. In solidarity, I almost posted a picture of the 7AWG audiophile power cables that powered to my Xbox and PS4 (not joking) and everything else in the rack...so I'm right there with you with going a little further on the extras!
> 
> Also, to echo another comment above, have you looked at the new microwave capacitor-equipped output cards? They reduce jitter--I'm definitely ordering mine!




My Telos Audio 4mtr Power cable arrived .... this is used with the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 PSU feeding the Lumagen..... 😀 

"Loving" the results of this combo .....😊


----------



## danam

Hi @Killroy I looked for Giomania guide but couldn't find it, could you please tell me where is it ?
As for the Chromapure 3D Lut calibration, I'm tempted to try it too but it doesn't seem very popular, any feedback about it ?


----------



## bobof

woofer said:


> My Telos Audio 4mtr Power cable arrived .... this is used with the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 PSU feeding the Lumagen..... 😀
> 
> "Loving" the results of this combo .....😊
> View attachment 3051596


You'll want to uncoil that pretty quick. I hear the unicorns can get dizzy going round in tight circles.


----------



## woofer

bobof said:


> You'll want to uncoil that pretty quick. I hear the unicorns can get dizzy going round in tight circles.


Geee!! That wasn't very predictable ..was it.... 😀 

I am a "Big Boy" .... "Bring it on"....😀


----------



## BrolicBeast

woofer said:


> My Telos Audio 4mtr Power cable arrived .... this is used with the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 PSU feeding the Lumagen.....
> 
> "Loving" the results of this combo .....
> View attachment 3051596


That's beautiful! What I'm finding with my audiophile grade cable is that it will pop out of the power brick due to sheer weight, so when you install make sure you install it in such a way that there is no tension on the cable that could cause it come out of the brick. I have mine coiled once with the coil pushing against the side of the AV rack, so the force is always pushing the cable connector _toward_ the power brick.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

BrolicBeast said:


> That's beautiful! What I'm finding with my audiophile grade cable is that it will pop out of the power brick due to sheer weight, so when you install make sure you install it in such a way that there is no tension on the cable that could cause it come out of the brick. I have mine coiled once with the coil pushing against the side of the AV rack, so the force is always pushing the cable connector _toward_ the power brick.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I always find it slightly ironic when these high-end products actually end up being a bit of a fail Vs the original purpose, in this case making a safe and secure connection to the grid... Not 100% the fault of the product given everywhere except the UK has pretty crappy and potentially unsafe mains connections, but still...


----------



## Killroy

danam said:


> Hi @Killroy I looked for Giomania guide but couldn't find it, could you please tell me where is it ?


Look at his signature.









giomania







www.avsforum.com







danam said:


> As for the Chromapure 3D Lut calibration, I'm tempted to try it too but it doesn't seem very popular, any feedback about it ?


Don't have any feedback yet as I have yet to try it. I spent the last 2-3 weeks setting up my Lumagen to my liking and I will tackle the 3DLut in the coming weeks. The JVC AutoCal calibration is pretty damn close to perfect so not sure if I will get any better results with the added 3DLut.


----------



## docrog

_Rockville, Maryland, October 29, 2020 – madVR Labs, LLC today announced that its revolutionary plug-and-play madVR Envy Extreme video processor has won the highly coveted CEDIA 2020 Best New Hardware Product Award._ 

It seems that the ball is now in Lumagen's court...............


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> _Rockville, Maryland, October 29, 2020 – madVR Labs, LLC today announced that its revolutionary plug-and-play madVR Envy Extreme video processor has won the highly coveted CEDIA 2020 Best New Hardware Product Award._
> 
> *It seems that the ball is now in Lumagen's court.*..............


I'm confused as to why you say this. As of this instant in time, the only serious comparison was in favor of the Lumagen. Until such time as the Envy demonstrates clear superiority in some or all of its feature set, the Lumagen is still *THE* proven product, with a very long term history of upgrades, excellent support, and constant improvements. I see no reason why that won't continue and the fact that there is now Envy to compete against, I suspect the Lumagen will more than keep up. *Competition is good!!*

If I had neither, and was making a choice today, Lumagen would still be it - for a whole laundry list of reasons.

I would use the Trinnov as a comparison. All kinds of new processors have been announced and delivered since Trinnov was released 6 years ago and Trinnov is still doing more than quite well (as in there is still no product that has the feature set and flexibility that it does). But, *competition is good!*


----------



## Kris Deering

danam said:


> Hi @Killroy I looked for Giomania guide but couldn't find it, could you please tell me where is it ?
> As for the Chromapure 3D Lut calibration, I'm tempted to try it too but it doesn't seem very popular, any feedback about it ?


The Chromapure auto cal only works for SDR. I have A LOT of clients that bought into "package deals" some vendors offer for a Lumagen plus auto cal via Chromapure that have learned the hard way that the auto cal definitely does not delivery what they say it will and I end up undoing and fixing the mess. 

Also, a LUT calibration isn't always a necessity. I see a lot of folks that want to do it just because they have the tools. A LUT is designed as a tool to fix issues, but sometimes there are no issues to fix and you're applying a process that is unnecessary. I find that less processing is always better and generally refrain from using a LUT if it is not ultimately necessary. If you know what you are doing for calibration, should be able to make that determination very easily.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> I'm confused as to why you say this. As of this instant in time, the only serious comparison was in favor of the Lumagen. Until such time as the Envy demonstrates clear superiority in some or all of its feature set, the Lumagen is still *THE* proven product, with a very long term history of upgrades, excellent support, and constant improvements. I see no reason why that won't continue and the fact that there is now Envy to compete against, I suspect the Lumagen will more than keep up. *Competition is good!!*
> 
> If I had neither, and was making a choice today, Lumagen would still be it - for a whole laundry list of reasons.
> 
> I would use the Trinnov as a comparison. All kinds of new processors have been announced and delivered since Trinnov was released 6 years ago and Trinnov is still doing more than quite well (as in there is still no product that has the feature set and flexibility that it does). But, *competition is good!*


Happy for MadVR on the award. They do seem to hand out Best of CEDIA like candy though to just about every new product every year. I was actually more surprised to see that they said it was officially shipping now. I didn't think it was yet.


----------



## SJHT

Are there any actual dealers who sell Envy or just direct? Off topic, but curious...


----------



## docrog

audioguy said:


> I'm confused as to why you say this......But, *competition is good!*


That was my point, entirely. Although the "award" was given for a NEW PRODUCT (the Radiance Pro can't "compete" in this category) and for the ENVY EXTREME (twice the cost of the RP), *any* positive press for madVR products will keep prodding Lumagen to effectively counter. I'm thrilled with the firmware upgrades made to the RP this year and eagerly await what's next in store for existing owners. FYI, I'm not at all tempted to purchase either of the madVR products.


----------



## Clark Burk

Kris Deering said:


> The Chromapure auto cal only works for SDR. I have A LOT of clients that bought into "package deals" some vendors offer for a Lumagen plus auto cal via Chromapure that have learned the hard way that the auto cal definitely does not delivery what they say it will and I end up undoing and fixing the mess.


Kris when you say SDR are you including SDR2020?


----------



## bobof

danam said:


> Hi @Killroy I looked for Giomania guide but couldn't find it, could you please tell me where is it ?
> As for the Chromapure 3D Lut calibration, I'm tempted to try it too but it doesn't seem very popular, any feedback about it ?


The Chromapure autocal works in a very odd way. It basically tweaks the LUT values this way and that way til it thinks it has done "good enough". This ends up with a really poor quality LUT with lots of non-linearity, banding, etc.

The correct way to generate a 3DLUT is to profile the display by measuring the whole response, and then you make a "best fit" 3DLUT which is still smooth. 

I really wouldn't bother personally (having owned CP3).


----------



## sjschaff

woofer said:


> I wont go into great details here in regards to the JS-2 PSU as i am very aware of the MANY sceptics that will "Jump" at the given opportunity...
> 
> BUT!! I am VERY VERY happy with the outlay and results of the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 with my Radiance Pro....😀


What exactly changed when you began to use the JS-2? I've had one in my audio system supporting a Roon Nucleus music player and EtherREGEN switch.


----------



## danam

Thx @Killroy @Kris Deering & @bobof for your feedbacks ! really helpful.

But I'm not sure I understood the efficiency of the CP SDR autocal, is it worth it or not ? Anyway I'll try to manually calibrate SDR. As for HDR, I know it's trickier ...
At least I can save my Lumagen settings if I really mess up (I got a brand new 870 pj after my uniformity problems and it's difficult to have a Pro coming for a proper Lumagen calibration since we are under lockdown for a month now).


----------



## woofer

bobof said:


> I always find it slightly ironic when these high-end products actually end up being a bit of a fail Vs the original purpose, in this case making a safe and secure connection to the grid... Not 100% the fault of the product given everywhere except the UK has pretty crappy and potentially unsafe mains connections, but still...


I can assure you the fit of the IEC plug ( Wattgate) on the "Telos" cable into the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 LPS is VERY firm and tight.....No chance of it disconnecting at all other than a very determined effort from the end user!


----------



## woofer

sjschaff said:


> What exactly changed when you began to use the JS-2? I've had one in my audio system supporting a Roon Nucleus music player and EtherREGEN switch.


You know if i "Elaborate" on this the "Floodgates" will open with a "Torrent"  😀


----------



## nbynw

c'mon - enquiring minds want to know....😂


----------



## Karl Maga

nbynw said:


> c'mon - enquiring minds want to know....😂


.....and Trolls! 😂


----------



## bjorg

I have kind of a weird question. I have a display which needs to be configured explicitly for the expected resolution per input. The plan is to configure Input A to UHD-SDR2020 and Input B for 3D-HD.

On the Radiance Pro side, I would use Output 4 and 2 to connect to Input A and B, while Output 1 is audio-only. When watching 2D, the display would use input A and the Radiance Pro would upscale everything to UHD-SDR2020, including HDR content. For 3D viewing, the display would select input B and the Radiance Pro would switch to HD resolution. I assume that Output 4 and 2 would emit the same information and the image processing done by the Radiance Pro would depend on 2D or 3D nature of the content.

Seems simple enough, but is this approach reasonable? Is there a better way? Please ask away if details are missing to make a recommendation.


----------



## bobof

danam said:


> Thx @Killroy @Kris Deering & @bobof for your feedbacks ! really helpful.
> 
> But I'm not sure I understood the efficiency of the CP SDR autocal, is it worth it or not ? Anyway I'll try to manually calibrate SDR. As for HDR, I know it's trickier ...
> At least I can save my Lumagen settings if I really mess up (I got a brand new 870 pj after my uniformity problems and it's difficult to have a Pro coming for a proper Lumagen calibration since we are under lockdown for a month now).


I personally wouldn't bother, I don't rate the results from CP3 at all. Better just select whatever is regarded as the most accurate stock mode on the PJ and keep your head down til this all blows over 

Of course it won't harm anything either, I'd just spend the time watching stuff instead


----------



## bobof

woofer said:


> I can assure you the fit of the IEC plug ( Wattgate) on the "Telos" cable into the Up-Tone Audio JS-2 LPS is VERY firm and tight.....No chance of it disconnecting at all other than a very determined effort from the end user!


That's the other extreme of the high end world, RCAs designed to be so overtight they damage the gear they're plugged into. /grr grumpy mode off


----------



## SJHT

docrog said:


> That was my point, entirely. Although the "award" was given for a NEW PRODUCT (the Radiance Pro can't "compete" in this category) and for the ENVY EXTREME (twice the cost of the RP), *any* positive press for madVR products will keep prodding Lumagen to effectively counter. I'm thrilled with the firmware upgrades made to the RP this year and eagerly await what's next in store for existing owners. FYI, I'm not at all tempted to purchase either of the madVR products.


Trinnov won an award this year for Best Product. They were surprised given when they first introduced the Altitude. Similar, the Lumagen Pro today is much different than the original due to all the great enhancements that have been made (and more coming). SJ


----------



## Ash Sharma

Watched Mandalorian Season 2 Episode 1 (they call it 9) - Fantastic 2:40 Picture with Lumagen.
Loved how the Lumagen managed to AR changes ....
Now I wish Jim gets the Crestron Integration for all AR's and Masking sorted it for the Stewart Screens - very quiet at Lumagen, this is a lose end they could tie.


----------



## sjschaff

woofer said:


> You know if i "Elaborate" on this the "Floodgates" will open with a "Torrent"  😀


As the JS-2 has two outputs, are you using the other for anything? And if you're so high on the JS-2 is it for its aesthetics? Or is it doing anything else for you? And if not merely aesthetics, then is it for audio rather than video results? Or is it more about the standard power supply "polluting" your power circuit? Other than showing off stuff, which I usually leave to other social media apps, I don't understand the value of these specific posts.😒


----------



## Karl Maga

sjschaff said:


> As the JS-2 has two outputs, are you using the other for anything? And if you're so high on the JS-2 is it for its aesthetics? Or is it doing anything else for you? And if not merely aesthetics, then is it for audio rather than video results? Or is it more about the standard power supply "polluting" your power circuit? Other than showing off stuff, which I usually leave to other social media apps, I don't understand the value of these specific posts.😒


It seems appropriate to me that an owner of a Lumagen Radiance Pro would comment on what they consider to be an enhancement. Furthermore, he explained why he wouldn’t elaborate - a solid choice, in my observations of this site. 

What power supply do you use with you Radiance Pro? I use the stock PSU with mine.


----------



## blake

Ash Sharma said:


> Watched Mandalorian Season 2 Episode 1 (they call it 9) - Fantastic 2:40 Picture with Lumagen.
> Loved how the Lumagen managed to AR changes ....
> Now I wish Jim gets the Crestron Integration for all AR's and Masking sorted it for the Stewart Screens - very quiet at Lumagen, this is a lose end they could tie.


Here’s seconding Crestron integration. Even better - also add support for new Crestron Home OS3 which is also overdue !


----------



## appelz

Ash Sharma said:


> Now I wish Jim gets the Crestron Integration for all AR's and Masking sorted it for the Stewart Screens - very quiet at Lumagen, this is a lose end they could tie.


I've fixed the biggest issue with that module, but since my Lumagen is still in a box somewhere, I haven't been able to do much else. Although since lately I've only been home between 3 and 22 hours at a time, 3-4 weeks in between, it wouldn't matter if the Lumagen was sitting on my desk! I do plan on being home around Thanksgiving, so maybe find some time to poke at the code a little more while the turkey is in the smoker. 



blake said:


> Here’s seconding Crestron integration. Even better - also add support for new Crestron Home OS3 which is also overdue !


Eh, I wouldn't hold your breath on Crestron OS3 integration.


----------



## Ash Sharma

appelz said:


> I've fixed the biggest issue with that module, but since my Lumagen is still in a box somewhere, I haven't been able to do much else. Although since lately I've only been home between 3 and 22 hours at a time, 3-4 weeks in between, it wouldn't matter if the Lumagen was sitting on my desk! I do plan on being home around Thanksgiving, so maybe find some time to poke at the code a little more while the turkey is in the smoker.


Adam - good things come to those who wait.
One more comment - Lumagen needs to have least these AR's - 2:40, 2:35, 2:2, 2:0, 1:85, 1:79 and 1:33 and so would the Stewart Screen Masking.


----------



## fatherom

Ash Sharma said:


> Watched Mandalorian Season 2 Episode 1 (they call it 9) - Fantastic 2:40 Picture with Lumagen.
> Loved how the Lumagen managed to AR changes ....
> Now I wish Jim gets the Crestron Integration for all AR's and Masking sorted it for the Stewart Screens - very quiet at Lumagen, this is a lose end they could tie.


Can you elaborate on this?

Were there aspect ratio changes during the episode? Was your masking changing mid episode? I'm curious what you were experiencing and how the lumagen was dealing with the aspect ratio changes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ash Sharma

fatherom said:


> Can you elaborate on this?
> Were there aspect ratio changes during the episode? Was your masking changing mid episode? I'm curious what you were experiencing and how the lumagen was dealing with the aspect ratio changes.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure...
My request for masking was prompted by the Mandalorian Episode.
Most of the episode was in 2:40 (Maybe 2:35 as I have merged my 2:35 to 2:40 in the Lumagen).
Towards the end - the AR changed to 16:9 and then reverted to 2:40 - the Lumagen handled the AR perfect - did nothing to masking as that is what is missing in the Lumagen Crestron Masking Module.


----------



## OzHDHT

Kris Deering said:


> The Chromapure auto cal only works for SDR. I have A LOT of clients that bought into "package deals" some vendors offer for a Lumagen plus auto cal via Chromapure that have learned the hard way that the auto cal definitely does not delivery what they say it will and I end up undoing and fixing the mess.
> 
> Also, a LUT calibration isn't always a necessity. I see a lot of folks that want to do it just because they have the tools. A LUT is designed as a tool to fix issues, but sometimes there are no issues to fix and you're applying a process that is unnecessary. I find that less processing is always better and generally refrain from using a LUT if it is not ultimately necessary. If you know what you are doing for calibration, should be able to make that determination very easily.


Kris, yeah that's exactly the up-sell (with still unused i1 display pro) I got with mine from a certain online US dealer, only to quickly upon closer investigation discovering the pointlessness of using it with my RS4500 due exactly what you've said there. I've remained with JVC autocal via Spyder for gamma and i1 Pro2 for colour. I've tweak that cal and lived with it until such time as I can work a way to maybe have you help me do a remote calibration of the Lumagen .


----------



## fatherom

Ash Sharma said:


> Sure...
> My request for masking was prompted by the Mandalorian Episode.
> Most of the episode was in 2:40 (Maybe 2:35 as I have merged my 2:35 to 2:40 in the Lumagen).
> Towards the end - the AR changed to 16:9 and then reverted to 2:40 - the Lumagen handled the AR perfect - did nothing to masking as that is what is missing in the Lumagen Crestron Masking Module.


So what happened during the aspect ratio shift in the episode? The lumagen detected and made sure nothing was cut off? So you went from 2:40 (filling your scope screen) to 16:9 (having black pillar bars on the sides)?

Even if the Lumagen could affect your masking during these shifts, the masking wouldn't move fast enough, I presume.


----------



## Ash Sharma

fatherom said:


> So what happened during the aspect ratio shift in the episode? The lumagen detected and made sure nothing was cut off? So you went from 2:40 (filling your scope screen) to 16:9 (having black pillar bars on the sides)?
> 
> Even if the Lumagen could affect your masking during these shifts, the masking wouldn't move fast enough, I presume.


Correct on AR - It handled it flawlessly as well as it does on all content.
In this case the transition from 2:35 fo 16:9 and the to 2:35 was quite long so IF the masking was working it would have been great.


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> Correct on AR - It handled it flawlessly as well as it does on all content.
> In this case the transition from 2:35 of 16:9 and the to 2:35 was quite long so IF the masking was working it would have been great.


While I'm certainly not arguing against whatever control modules you are using getting full aspects control; as someone who has full integration of all aspects with an electric mask screen - did the integration myself - I can say quite confidently that the auto masking during playing content isn't fast enough to be much other than annoying (to me at least).

Firstly there is the short delay from the Lumagen in "spotting" the change in AR, and then there is the mechanical mask movement itself with the accompanying sound and delay. my 16:9 screen with top / bottom masks takes around 3 seconds to open from 2.35 -> 16:9 (which is the annoying direction for me). I imagine a scope mask screen going from 16:9 to 2.35 will be even slower (that is the annoying direction on a scope screen). During that mask change period you'll have moving image being projected onto the screen borders, which I find looks a bit naff.

One thing that Lumagen could do which would improve the presentation a fair bit during aspect changes would be to allow a digital masking (either horizontal or vertical) in the Lumagen to occur over a period of time (configurable as pixels / second I guess). This could then be programmed to match the movement of the mechanical masks and avoid the overspill. 

The other thing they could do perhaps would be to disconnect the detection of the ratios from the setting of the ratio in the Lumagen. This would allow the ratio to be detected, and then the control sytem could move the masks as required and only once the masks are in correct position trigger the ratio change in the processor.


----------



## Des511

With all the requests and suggestions lately I think Jim will stay on vacation


----------



## WCEaglesMan

I do think that whilst some may wish for aspect ratios to change in the blink of an eye, and for masking to similarly swing into position, this is not really possible. The detection of an aspect ratio change is not immediate and to expect this to happen in the blink of an eye would require a quantum leap in processing power/speed above what the current technology and hardware allows. I think it is great that Jim and company do update their product regularly but recently the suggestions are rather extreme. I guess we all have our own dreams ....


----------



## Ash Sharma

bobof said:


> While I'm certainly not arguing against whatever control modules you are using getting full aspects control; as someone who has full integration of all aspects with an electric mask screen - did the integration myself - I can say quite confidently that the auto masking during playing content isn't fast enough to be much other than annoying (to me at least).


IMHO Lumagen has an awesome AR automatic feature - it is good enough for my family for sure - my wife who will not know the difference between 1:85 and 2:35 does not have to second guess as it throws out the correct picture size every time for every ratio.
The only issue for my user experience is the masking is not working for all AR's and like Adam said (and I know some others like Lon already have this function working for him) he has already sorted this out and looks like you have also.
Even in Mandalorian the AR change was long enough that the masking would be changed and brought back without it being annoying.
99% of the movies have a set and forget AR, so for practicality - best would be to have a easy way to turn the masking auto on and off in the programming so if you are watching a movie with constantly changing AR you can turn the function OFF.
`


----------



## Mike Garrett

Ash Sharma said:


> Correct on AR - It handled it flawlessly as well as it does on all content.
> In this case the transition from 2:35 fo 16:9 and the to 2:35 was quite long so IF the masking was working it would have been great.


The Lumagen did fine for me on the aspect ratio change with Mandalorian, but no way I would want my masking tied to this for aspect ratio changing movies. My masking system (2.37 screen) is not remotely close to being fast enough for this.


----------



## Killroy

Has anyone thought about an offline settings editor app for the Lumagen, kinda like @SoulOfUniverse control app but for every single settings? Meaning, an app on the PC that can set all the settings and THEN upload to the Lumagen for use or testing?

If there is already one out there I will feel like an idiot for not seeing it before.


----------



## bobof

Killroy said:


> Has anyone thought about an offline settings editor app for the Lumagen, kinda like @SoulOfUniverse control app but for every single settings? Meaning, an app on the PC that can set all the settings and THEN upload to the Lumagen for use or testing?
> 
> If there is already one out there I will feel like an idiot for not seeing it before.


It's not possible to implement such an app within the confines of the current RS232 API, you can't access all the settings. Many things can only be configured via the remote control and OSD.

While the Lumagen backup / restore application can download and restore an entire snapshot of the config, there isn't any editing possible of that config at the PC; you'd need a PC app that could parse and edit it.


----------



## Killroy

bobof said:


> It's not possible to implement such an app within the confines of the current RS232 API, you can't access all the settings. Many things can only be configured via the remote control and OSD.
> 
> While the Lumagen backup / restore application can download and restore an entire snapshot of the config, there isn't any editing possible of that config at the PC; you'd need a PC app that could parse and edit it.


Bummer. Don't get me wrong, the picture quality is awesome but the menu system is a bit, how should I put this... so late 80's early 90's DOS.


----------



## bobof

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> I do think that whilst some may wish for aspect ratios to change in the blink of an eye, and for masking to similarly swing into position, this is not really possible. The detection of an aspect ratio change is not immediate and to expect this to happen in the blink of an eye would require a quantum leap in processing power/speed above what the current technology and hardware allows. I think it is great that Jim and company do update their product regularly but recently the suggestions are rather extreme. I guess we all have our own dreams ....


I don't actually think instant detection is for the most part possible at all; though I'm intrigued about some of the difference in approach between this and the Envy as it seems they're approaching it slightly differently (results as yet to be seen). 

I spent quite a long time going back and forth with the Lumagen guys on the AR detection, and a lot of the current delay is there to avoid false aspect detections. I think I wouldn't be being too unkind in saying that as implemented from the previous products (I recall from my 2143, carried on into the Pro) it barely worked, with there being lots of corner cases where the AR detection was flakey, got stuck, didn't work at all, etc, and the reason for those improvements were user requests.

So things can always be improved. The points I raised are "untidynesses" around the operation of autoaspect with electric masking screens, and while you can live without any of it (you can live without electric masking too! Many do...) it would always be nice to improve the quality of presentation. When I get image projected over the screen borders for no real good reason it does annoy a little (it's in the "could have tried harder" report card stakes  ) but with the logic as implemented it's something simple that is impossible to work around.

There are other things that are a little untidy in places about the feature - for instance there is a ~1 frame stutter as the AR change happens, even on screens where no actual processing change need happen (top / bottom mask screens changing between ratios being the example here). Again, less annoying than getting up to put masks up manually, not exactly the end of the world, but grates a little.

They're all things it would be nice to improve where possible, and totally accept to the majority who don't have electric masking they're neither here nor there, and other areas would be preferable to have effort expended on. As you say, I guess we all have our own dreams...


----------



## fatherom

So for IMAX switching movies (dark knight for example) and Mandalorian, the 16:9 content is meant to seem "larger" than the 2.40 content. The visceral impact is meant to exude a sense of hugeness when the image goes to 16:9. This obviously works for people with a 16:9 screen, although of course they see black bars on top/bottom during the 2.40 scenes. 

Mike and Ash, what do you see on your scope screens? Do you end up with black bars on the sides during the 16:9 scenes? Essentially the 16:9 content is smaller for you than the 2.40 content?

The only show I can think of that does aspect ratio switches where the 16:9 content is the usual stuff and the 2.40 content is meant to convey more awe, is The Expanse. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

fatherom said:


> So for IMAX switching movies (dark knight for example) and Mandalorian, the 16:9 content is meant to seem "larger" than the 2.40 content. The visceral impact is meant to exude a sense of hugeness when the image goes to 16:9. This obviously works for people with a 16:9 screen, although of course they see black bars on top/bottom during the 2.40 scenes.
> 
> Mike and Ash, what do you see on your scope screens? Do you end up with black bars on the sides during the 16:9 scenes? Essentially the 16:9 content is smaller for you than the 2.40 content?
> 
> The only show I can think of that does aspect ratio switches where the 16:9 content is the usual stuff and the 2.40 content is meant to convey more awe, is The Expanse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just watch the " shape shifting " movies as a scope movie, and use the sticky aspect ratio feature to lock it at 2.40:1. The only exception is Dunkirk, since it's a lot more Imax scenes in that movie. I watch that on my 16:9 screen. 

Hey directors - pick one aspect ratio for the movie and stick with it. Thanks in advance.


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## fatherom

Craig Peer said:


> I just watch the " shape shifting " movies as a scope movie, and use the sticky aspect ratio feature to lock it at 2.40:1. The only exception is Dunkirk, since it's a lot more Imax scenes in that movie. I watch that on my 16:9 screen.
> 
> Hey directors - pick one aspect ratio for the movie and stick with it. Thanks in advance.


So during the 16:9 portions of mandalorian and dark knight, you're losing content off the top and bottom, due to the locking you're doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

Are "The Mandelorian" and "TDK" in the same category? You'd imagine the likes of TDK etc to have been treated sensitively to ensure a scope safe presentation for standard theatrical release outside of IMAX theatres, but was that ever a requirement for Mandelorian? It was created for TV, so they would have assumed everything is TV safe and won't have cared at all about 2.4:1 screens.

For TDK or Interstellar with a scope screen (or scope CIH mask screen) I think the only sane option is to turn off auto aspect and just watch it masked to 2.4. Mandelorian - not sure. 

Luckily my CIW masks are top / bottom so I just watch this content open mask with AA turned off. My room and seating dictates CIW as being the only sensible option (unfortunately) - but I think I'd want to try and get 4 way masking if I had a room wide enough.


----------



## Ash Sharma

fatherom said:


> Mike and Ash, what do you see on your scope screens? Do you end up with black bars on the sides during the 16:9 scenes? Essentially the 16:9 content is smaller for you than the 2.40 content?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes 16:9 - Black Bars on sides (and off cause no black bars if masking is closed to 16:9).
The intent to a much larger picture when aspect changes to 16:9 would work for those who have a Constant Height Screen (which I don't).


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## fatherom

Ash Sharma said:


> Yes 16:9 - Black Bars on sides (and off cause no black bars if masking is closed to 16:9).
> The intent to a much larger picture when aspect changes to 16:9 would work for those who have a Constant Height Screen (which I don't).


You mean constant width screen. I have a 16:9 screen which is constant width and when the aspect changes to 16:9 I get a larger image. 

So far only The Expanse seems to do their switching in the opposite direction, so to speak. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlinsley

Does anyone have timestamps for when the switch happens on Mandalorian? We watched it Friday night, in scope, and didn't notice anything being obviously missing. I normally just let the Radiance do AA, but at the start of the show it was taking a while to kick in and so I manually enforced 2.35 mode (and have sticky enabled).


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## Killroy

dlinsley said:


> Does anyone have timestamps for when the switch happens on Mandalorian? We watched it Friday night, in scope, and didn't notice anything being obviously missing. I normally just let the Radiance do AA, but at the start of the show it was taking a while to kick in and so I manually enforced 2.35 mode (and have sticky enabled).


Right around 40:20 (give or take a few seconds). It also switches in a couple of spots after that. My mistake, it does not.

BTW, just checked...it is 99% scope safe.


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## David Shapiro

Hi, All,

I'm at my wit's end with video and audio dropouts. Before you ask, I've searched everywhere, including this site, before posting this. The new search function here leaves something to be desired. 
I have a new Lumagen Radiance Pro. The model is a 4242 with 18 Gb in and out. I had a previous generation radiance Pro which I took out of my system to see if it really made a difference. Guess what, it did. So, I bought a current generation unit. I got it calibrated over the summer by Chad B. The colors are spectacular. However, since then, Apple TV has been unwatchable due to dropouts.
I’ve upgraded the Lumagen software. I’ve gone so far as to sequentially upgrade it since April until now. I bought the latest 8K RUI Pro cable for my projector, a JVC RS4500. The cable is , by necessity, 40 feet long. The previous RUI cable worked with my previous Lumagen Radiance. I bought the Belkin 4K cable recommended by Apple for the ATV. The signal goes from the ATV to the Lumagen to the projector. My processor only sees it for audio.
I’ve downgraded the settings to 4:20, 4K SDR, don’t match Dynamic range or frame rate. Unless there is some magic cable that I’m overlooking or don’t know about, I simply can’t watch Apple TV.
So, here are my questions. Any recommendations for cabling? Is Nvidea ShieldPro any better? Should I give up on the Lumagen?
Thanks for any helpful suggestions. BTW, I've just reached out to Lumagen, so hopefully they can help.

David


----------



## bobof

David Shapiro said:


> Hi, All,
> 
> I'm at my wit's end with video and audio dropouts. Before you ask, I've searched everywhere, including this site, before posting this. The new search function here leaves something to be desired.
> I have a new Lumagen Radiance Pro. The model is a 4242 with 18 Gb in and out. I had a previous generation radiance Pro which I took out of my system to see if it really made a difference. Guess what, it did. So, I bought a current generation unit. I got it calibrated over the summer by Chad B. The colors are spectacular. However, since then, Apple TV has been unwatchable due to dropouts.
> I’ve upgraded the Lumagen software. I’ve gone so far as to sequentially upgrade it since April until now. I bought the latest 8K RUI Pro cable for my projector, a JVC RS4500. The cable is , by necessity, 40 feet long. The previous RUI cable worked with my previous Lumagen Radiance. I bought the Belkin 4K cable recommended by Apple for the ATV. The signal goes from the ATV to the Lumagen to the projector. My processor only sees it for audio.
> I’ve downgraded the settings to 4:20, 4K SDR, don’t match Dynamic range or frame rate. Unless there is some magic cable that I’m overlooking or don’t know about, I simply can’t watch Apple TV.
> So, here are my questions. Any recommendations for cabling? Is Nvidea ShieldPro any better? Should I give up on the Lumagen?


I guess it might not be obvious, but make sure that even though it is seemingly only low bandwidth, that the cable on the audio output is secure and of high quality and suitable length. The audio HDMI cable being intermittent could impact the video in spite of seemingly not being in circuit. The easiest way to prove this to yourself is to power off the AVR / processor, or switch it to a different HDMI input on the AVR / processor... you will see the video drop momentarily usually (even though it isn't "in circuit").

The other thing you can consider with the AppleTV is rebooting it after switching to it. I've seen some scenarios where it gets hung up in funny ways - but usually related to playback failing to start or HDCP error messages. Harmony remote controls can be programmed to reboot the AppleTV every time you switch to in. 

In addition to limiting to 4:2:0, 4K SDR on the Apple TV, you could consider locking the refresh to 24p, though the screensavers and UI stutter a bit. That only works if you mostly watch content on the majors (Netflix, Amazon, etc). I think some other services are still predominantly 60p or 50p though, depending on where in the world you are. So it might not be a useful option. 

Good luck!


----------



## Craig Peer

fatherom said:


> So during the 16:9 portions of mandalorian and dark knight, you're losing content off the top and bottom, due to the locking you're doing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup - and no one notices ( Dark Knight, Interstellar, Hunger Games, haven't watched The Mandalorian ). Otherwise I could watch it on my 16:9 screen with black bars for most of the movie ( lame ), or watch it on the scope screen with black bars on the sides ( also lame in my opinion ). All those Imax scenes are " scope safe ". They don't add enough to make up for black bars or other shenanigans .


----------



## dlinsley

David Shapiro said:


> I'm at my wit's end with video and audio dropouts


Have you also tried switching the output firmware, from new to old (menu 850) or old to new (menu 851)? I wonder if it would be worth rolling back to pre 051820 - which had input firmware to fix Apple TV issues - to put back the old input firmware and then upgrade again to latest. Probably best to contact Support directly. FWIW, Apple TV 4k is stable here at 4:2:2 4k60 etc.


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## Mike Garrett

fatherom said:


> So for IMAX switching movies (dark knight for example) and Mandalorian, the 16:9 content is meant to seem "larger" than the 2.40 content. The visceral impact is meant to exude a sense of hugeness when the image goes to 16:9. This obviously works for people with a 16:9 screen, although of course they see black bars on top/bottom during the 2.40 scenes.
> 
> *Mike and Ash, what do you see on your scope screens? Do you end up with black bars on the sides during the 16:9 scenes? Essentially the 16:9 content is smaller for you than the 2.40 content?*
> 
> The only show I can think of that does aspect ratio switches where the 16:9 content is the usual stuff and the 2.40 content is meant to convey more awe, is The Expanse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We run CIH setups, so when it goes to 16:9, we have unused screen on the right and left.


----------



## Kris Deering

David Shapiro said:


> Hi, All,
> 
> I'm at my wit's end with video and audio dropouts. Before you ask, I've searched everywhere, including this site, before posting this. The new search function here leaves something to be desired.
> I have a new Lumagen Radiance Pro. The model is a 4242 with 18 Gb in and out. I had a previous generation radiance Pro which I took out of my system to see if it really made a difference. Guess what, it did. So, I bought a current generation unit. I got it calibrated over the summer by Chad B. The colors are spectacular. However, since then, Apple TV has been unwatchable due to dropouts.
> I’ve upgraded the Lumagen software. I’ve gone so far as to sequentially upgrade it since April until now. I bought the latest 8K RUI Pro cable for my projector, a JVC RS4500. The cable is , by necessity, 40 feet long. The previous RUI cable worked with my previous Lumagen Radiance. I bought the Belkin 4K cable recommended by Apple for the ATV. The signal goes from the ATV to the Lumagen to the projector. My processor only sees it for audio.
> I’ve downgraded the settings to 4:20, 4K SDR, don’t match Dynamic range or frame rate. Unless there is some magic cable that I’m overlooking or don’t know about, I simply can’t watch Apple TV.
> So, here are my questions. Any recommendations for cabling? Is Nvidea ShieldPro any better? Should I give up on the Lumagen?
> Thanks for any helpful suggestions. BTW, I've just reached out to Lumagen, so hopefully they can help.
> 
> David


How long is the cable between the AppleTV and the Radiance? Do you have any other sources connected or any other displays connected on the output?


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## David Shapiro

The cable is 2 meters. The only other source is Comcast cable. That is also a 2 meter 18 GHz cable. No other display.


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## David Shapiro

Jim Peterson suggested reseating the cables a few times. He also said that I should try a 3 M cable for the ATV if reseating doesn’t work.


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## Kris Deering

2 meter should be fine. I would try one of the premium certified Monoprice cables at 2 or 3 meters. They are less than $10 each so easy to try. Set output to 4K60SDR with rate/range match on. For 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 it honestly shouldn't matter with that setup. Make sure the Comcast box is on a different input card (so if ATV is input 1, make the Comcast input 3, so that any EDID info from that box isn't messing with the input card (also, turn OFF the Comcast box if you can when using the ATV).


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## bearcat2002

Mike Garrett said:


> Great, because I was getting this.


I’m still getting the green/purple thing. I reverted back to the recent firmware that added sharpness and no more green/purple.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## llang269

Yeah Im also getting the Hulk screen (green and purple) on my Apple Tv and Strato. I guess ill revert back to the old firmware until it can be fixed.


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## bearcat2002

Good know I’m not alone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

Nice is you might mention your display if not in your signature (maybe I missed it). I don’t have these problems with my Sony 995 and Strato/Apple TV....


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## ShaharT

llang269 said:


> Yeah Im also getting the Hulk screen (green and purple) on my Apple Tv and Strato. I guess ill revert back to the old firmware until it can be fixed.


Same. On the a Sony 995 and atv4k. Switching sources away and back to the atv solves it.


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## David Shapiro

Kris Deering said:


> 2 meter should be fine. I would try one of the premium certified Monoprice cables at 2 or 3 meters. They are less than $10 each so easy to try. Set output to 4K60SDR with rate/range match on. For 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 it honestly shouldn't matter with that setup. Make sure the Comcast box is on a different input card (so if ATV is input 1, make the Comcast input 3, so that any EDID info from that box isn't messing with the input card (also, turn OFF the Comcast box if you can when using the ATV).


Thanks Kris. Much appreciated.

David


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## Sittler27

Any past Madvr users here that have since moved on to a Lumagen Radiance Pro and care to share their thoughts on the change/upgrade?


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## bobof

llang269 said:


> Yeah Im also getting the Hulk screen (green and purple) on my Apple Tv and Strato. I guess ill revert back to the old firmware until it can be fixed.


Patrick replied to me on this issue last night and a fix is on the way. I've also been seeing this on my AppleTV.


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## Mark_H

bobof said:


> I don't actually think instant detection is for the most part possible at all; though I'm intrigued about some of the difference in approach between this and the Envy as it seems they're approaching it slightly differently (results as yet to be seen).


Given the miracles they've worked with DTM I'd be astonished if they couldn't figure out a way to make auto AR more "instant" than it currently is. Improvements would be very welcome as it's currently the weakest part of my experience with the Pro.


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## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Given the miracles they've worked with DTM I'd be astonished if they couldn't figure out a way to make auto AR more "instant" than it currently is. Improvements would be very welcome as it's currently the weakest part of my experience with the Pro.


It was originally a lot faster, but also broke quite often. Now it is at least sure footed and robust (particularly if you merge 2.35 and 2.4 ARs, which can otherwise ping-pong sometimes I think due to the vagaries of the differences between them and the noise around the bars from encoding). I'd rather slow and steady for sure. For what it is worth It sounds like the Envy also suffers from the difficulties that afflict the Lumagen particularly around dark scenes, in properly encoded titles that actually reach the black floor in the frame, though it seems they might be doing something a little cute in enumerating the aspects once seen in a given title and then being able to have more confidence of a change quickly (I don't >think< Lumagen do anything like that). But haven't seen the Envy in operation.

The amount of movies that start in darkness and so it takes until the first significant bit of brighter content for the edge to be discerned is surprising, it seems a predictable and well trodden cinematic path to bring the movies out of darkness.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating for standing still with it (as a mask screen owner I really want it as fast as possible). But I think that given some of the difficulties in discerning the correct AR, actually some of the other things around being able to control the digital masking while physical masks are in motion actually have more potential to improve the quality of presentation for those with electric masks screen. No matter how fast you detect the AR, unless you have a buffer as long as your masks take to travel (completely unfeasible of course) you'll still end up with image all over your frame for significant time. (I assume your Screen Research 4 way is as "leisurely" in pace as my 2 way... or should I say "cinematic"..!)


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## dgkula

bearcat2002 said:


> I’m still getting the green/purple thing. I reverted back to the recent firmware that added sharpness and no more green/purple.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used to get the green screen exclusively with the Shield and the update fixed it. Haven't had it since. Maybe its device dependent


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## dgkula

Anyone notice DTM issues in Netflix Haunting of Bly Manor? The lighting on this is all over the place. Hard to know if it is the source or the DTM. Noticed multiple scenes with weird lighting - usually too dim, following a scene cut with bright highlights - in first two episodes.


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## Mike_WI

llang269 said:


> Yeah Im also getting the Hulk screen (green and purple) on my Apple Tv and Strato. I guess ill revert back to the old firmware until it can be fixed.


On newest (100220) FW I have normal function from Oppo 203.
From ATV4K I get green/purple. I tried many things including power cycling, then went into ATV4K settings and changed chroma.
That fixed it. If I recall correctly, I could even go back and change it to original setting and it would still look normal.
Weird.


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## Killroy

Sittler27 said:


> Any past Madvr users here that have since moved on to a Lumagen Radiance Pro and care to share their thoughts on the change/upgrade?


Long, long, long time MadVR user (HTPC) and I just switched and I absolutely love it. The set-up was a bit daunting but I think I have everything running smoothly.

The DTM is awesome in comparison and the upscaling has gotten better with the latest 2 or 3 firmwares.


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## fatherom

dgkula said:


> Anyone notice DTM issues in Netflix Haunting of Bly Manor? The lighting on this is all over the place. Hard to know if it is the source or the DTM. Noticed multiple scenes with weird lighting - usually too dim, following a scene cut with bright highlights - in first two episodes.


Please report any things you see like this to [email protected]. Include the name, timestamp, etc...only if people report these brightness fluctuations can they be addressed.


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## Sittler27

Killroy said:


> Long, long, long time MadVR user (HTPC) and I just switched and I absolutely love it. The set-up was a bit daunting but I think I have everything running smoothly.
> 
> The DTM is awesome in comparison and the upscaling has gotten better with the latest 2 or 3 firmwares.


It's difficult to imagine the DTM getting any better than my current madvr (histogram, etc.) HTPC, but I may give it a try if it's that much of an improvement given the other benefits I'd gain on my NX9 projector setup.

I don't really playback 4K discs, just their mkv file rips from my NAS. 
As I wouldn't be using an HTPC anymore, what would be the ideal devices to enable playback of these files through the Lumagen?

I currently own an ATV 4K, Xbox One X (Series X on it's way). I've always liked the HTPC madvr aspect as it always feels like I'm playing the mkv file "raw" rather than through the ATV or other device that may be affecting the file playback. Is this really a concern?


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## jont-uk

I’ve updated to the latest firmware and still get the green/purple issue on my ATV 4K and also seen it on my Oppo 203 screen, Xbox and Sky menus on the other inputs ... it seems to happen on the first input selection after power-on - if I change to another input and then back again then that fixes it ... Lumagen 4242c ...


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## bobof

From what I understand from Lumagen support last night, the fix for this on AppleTV isn't in the current public build. It's a known issue and a fix is on the way. There are lots of odd things about the AppleTV in that power on state - if you look at the Info screen the res is reported as 1920x2160, and the input format as RGB in spite of whatever the AppleTV is actually sending.


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## audioguy

Sittler27 said:


> It's difficult to imagine the DTM getting any better than my current madvr (histogram, etc.) HTPC, but I may give it a try if it's that much of an improvement given the other benefits I'd gain on my NX9 projector setup.
> 
> I don't really playback 4K discs, just their mkv file rips from my NAS.
> As I wouldn't be using an HTPC anymore, what would be the ideal devices to enable playback of these files through the Lumagen?
> 
> I currently own an ATV 4K, Xbox One X (Series X on it's way). I've always liked the HTPC madvr aspect as it always feels like I'm playing the mkv file "raw" rather than through the ATV or other device that may be affecting the file playback. Is this really a concern?


I use Nvidia Shield running Plex Client and use source direct for playing my ripped movies from my Synology NAS running the Plex Server. Connected to my Lumagen. Works perfect —- except
Most of the time I select it I get a green screen, then need to select another input the reselect the Shield


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GerryWaz

jont-uk said:


> I’ve updated to the latest firmware and still get the green/purple issue on my ATV 4K and also seen it on my Oppo 203 screen, Xbox and Sky menus on the other inputs ... it seems to happen on the first input selection after power-on - if I change to another input and then back again then that fixes it ... Lumagen 4242c ...


I wonder if this is related to what I was seeing with the new Roku Ultra and the Radiance 4446+?

I'd turn everything on and when the picture came up, it was (naturally) the Roku screensaver, all in green and purplish tones. I'd clear the screensaver and the purple and green tones continued. (Side note: The Roku was then displaying the message that the display settings were being set by the Roku to "Automatic." I had them fixed to 4K HDR but Roku keeps changing them still at power on. Hate that.)

As someone else noted, the fix was to go to another input and come back to the Roku Ultra input.

Then, I went back to the previous firmware version on the Radiance and the purple/green tones disappeared.

Then I decided to reapply the latest firmware for the Radiance and lo and behold the problem did not reappear. Have not seen the purple and green issue since with reapplying the new firmware.


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## WCEaglesMan

GerryWaz said:


> Then, I went back to the previous firmware version on the Radiance and the purple/green tones disappeared.
> 
> Then I decided to reapply the latest firmware for the Radiance and lo and behold the problem did not reappear. Have not seen the purple and green issue since with reapplying the new firmware.


Egad ... I now have the purple and green screen. I have the latest firmware and have NEVER had this problem before !! I have sent an email to Jim @ Lumagen.


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## David Shapiro

So my problem with Apple TV was fixed with a 3 M Monoprice 18 GHz hdmi cable, as suggested by Jim Peterson. Just to investigate, I gradually put back DTM matching, frame rate matching and HDR. No dropouts on anything that had previously been absolutely unwatchable: Netflix ultra 4K, HBO Max and Amazon Prime 4K. Im very happy with everything. Thanks to everyone who chimed in.

David


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## Roosvelt

Sittler27 said:


> It's difficult to imagine the DTM getting any better than my current madvr (histogram, etc.) HTPC, but I may give it a try if it's that much of an improvement given the other benefits I'd gain on my NX9 projector setup.
> 
> I don't really playback 4K discs, just their mkv file rips from my NAS.
> As I wouldn't be using an HTPC anymore, what would be the ideal devices to enable playback of these files through the Lumagen?
> 
> I currently own an ATV 4K, Xbox One X (Series X on it's way). I've always liked the HTPC madvr aspect as it always feels like I'm playing the mkv file "raw" rather than through the ATV or other device that may be affecting the file playback. Is this really a concern?


You can use an app call infuse with your Apple TV to read your mkv files, I’ve payed 50$ for a lifetime licence. 









Infuse 7 - An Elegant Video Player


Ignite your video content with Infuse – the beautiful way to watch almost any video format on your iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, and Mac. Free download!




firecore.com





Don’t forget that ATV doesn’t enable bitstream for audio only PCM.


----------



## Roosvelt

jont-uk said:


> I’ve updated to the latest firmware and still get the green/purple issue on my ATV 4K and also seen it on my Oppo 203 screen, Xbox and Sky menus on the other inputs ... it seems to happen on the first input selection after power-on - if I change to another input and then back again then that fixes it ... Lumagen 4242c ...


I’ve got this problem too but with my PS4 pro not with the ATV. 
So I guess ATV is not guilty, if I switch to an other device and come back to PS4 pro issue fixed.


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## jqmn

How does the Lumagen handle UHD bit depth on output for BT2020/SDR? As I understand it the unit outputs to a 2.4 gamma and passes through the BT2020 colorspace (on a null internal 1DLUT and 3DLUT) but what does it do, if anything, with the 10-bit disc output? Leave it at 10-bits? Convert it to 8-bits? Thank-you.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Sorry I am kinda new into this - and since I am quite alone out here in Sweden with no official reseller or close support I would like to get clarity some topics:

I am about to purchase the Sony VW790 (VW915 in US) and trying to read the manual for the Lumagen to understand the following: I should consider The projector as a SDR displat and in CMS0 have the Rec.709 för SDR material and in cms1 have the SDR bt.2020 - meaning put the HDR in a SDR container? Have I got right? What wuld be the benefit of doing that?

Why cant i have only one memory with the whole BT2020 and when it is only SDR the Rec.709 gamut is still within the BT2020 since it is "less" - why do I need two memories in that sense?

If my professional calibrator is not at all familier with Lumagen, but a very expereinced calibrator, will the learning curve be on a ok level you guys think? Is i a must to be capable to do 3D LUT calibration or can I benefit anyway?

As you might understand, I have JVC NX5 today and my main purpose to get the Lumagen is for the DTM. Extremely expensive to get "only" DTM, but in the other hand just getting 70% out of HDR on VW790 could also consdidered to be expensive!

Thanks!


----------



## Mike Garrett

dgkula said:


> I used to get the green screen exclusively with the Shield and the update fixed it. Haven't had it since. Maybe its device dependent


Same here. I was all set to return the Shield, but after the firmware, no more issue.


----------



## audioguy

Mike Garrett said:


> Same here. I was all set to return the Shield, but after the firmware, no more issue.


Mike, what firm ware version on the Shield are you on - and when did you do that firmware?


----------



## Mike Garrett

audioguy said:


> Mike, what firm ware version on the Shield are you on - and when did you do that firmware?


I will have to check and see.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Having had the green and purple screen issue with update 100220, I have rolled back to 093020 where for the time being I do NOT have the green and purple screen. At this stage Jim Peterson does not know specifically what it is in update 100220 that has caused the problem.


----------



## Kris Deering

Output of the Lumagen is 422 12-bit, so the bit depth is preserved.


----------



## Nima

What happens when I output RGB (my Epson LS10000 looks sharper when fed RGB)?


----------



## MDesigns

Nima said:


> What happens when I output RGB (my Epson LS10000 looks sharper when fed RGB)?


I believe the lumagen doesn't do RGB. 422 is the best.


----------



## Nima

It does, I have set up that way (Video levels).


----------



## garyolearysteele

Nima said:


> It does, I have set up that way (Video levels).


Interesting, I wonder if there is a reason not to do this considering we’re outputting an SDR signal. IIRC the recommendation on PS4 was RGB for SDR and 422 for HDR since bandwidth limitations wouldn’t allow for 10 bit HDR without 422 compression. I guess for movies they will be input at 422, but gaming is going out at RGB


----------



## bobof

A couple of reasons to prefer 12 bit YCrCb I think:
1) My understanding is in the Radiance Pro RGB results in only 8 bits output. It's a shame to quantize to that level when you have higher bit depths in many display panel techs (like JVC D-ILA). As soon as you have any processing in the Lumagen you'll have math resulting in >8bits so why lose that information (or dither it back down to 8 bit).
2) Historically, outputting RGB to many displays has been worse than YCrCb as many displays apply parts of the CMS in YCrCb, so counter intuitively, although the panels are RGB you'd be doing more conversions in the display by sending RGB than by sending YCrCb.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Hi,

One for fellow Sony projector owners.. This may be old news to you all, but thought i'd leave a note on here for any future travelers who have the same issue.

I recently made a lot of changes to my setup by adding in a lumagen and updating to the most recent PJ firmware all at the same time. I noticed some nasty artifacts that really stood out in some gaming on PS4 pro, especially pop up notifications, they look very low resolution and in some cases unreadable. It is also immediately noticeable on Apple TV when navigating the home screen and in Disney+ menus.

Here is an example (see attached), tho its hard to capture since the PS4 pop ups are the worst effected. The Youtube and Disney+ logos have a blocky artifact round the lettering, this is noticeable at viewing distance in a lot of cases and in gaming it looks terrible.

Naturally with all the changes it took a little while to find the offender, well it turns out this was caused by the Digital Focus Optimizer that is enabled by default as part of Reality Creation on the Sony. I had been using an old firmware since the Sony had a near black issue with the most recent 8.102, however going from 8.004 to 8.102 it really stood out and none of the home screens on console and Apple TV looked right. Disabling DFO fixed it.

Thanks
Gary


----------



## SJHT

When Kris Deering recently updated my setup I asked him about using RC on my Sony 995. He said “season to taste”, but turn off DFO!


----------



## bearcat2002

After going back a few builds to get rid of the green/purple, I tried to return to the newest firmware as it appears some on here had success updating a second time. I had no such luck as it retuned. I’m back to the firmware where they introduced the new sharpness feature. I’ll patiently wait as this build works great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

For what it is worth, I've gone back to *092820*, which is one version on from the first version with sharpening. It fixed some small issue around the bottom line of the image with sharpening. It seems robust with respect to all the HDMI inputs in my system.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

bobof said:


> For what it is worth, I've gone back to *092820*, which is one version on from the first version with sharpening. It fixed some small issue around the bottom line of the image with sharpening. It seems robust with respect to all the HDMI inputs in my system.


Also FWIW, I have gone back to 093020 which solved my purple and green screen issues. This has the sharpening so I am happy.


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> A comment on Harmony remote programming:
> 
> The Harmony Elite and other Harmony remotes do not do the correct thing to select a Radiance or Radiance Pro input. The issue is it only sends the input number. Sending only the input number is a shortcut, but only if there is no OSD on the screen. So, this does work if there is no Radiance or Radiance Pro OSD on the screen. However, if the OSD is active (such as after turn on, or aspect selection, etc.) this will _not_ select the intended input.
> 
> What I do with our Harmony Elite controlled family room setup to select a Radiance Pro input is to have the Harmony send the "Clear screen" command (CLR on remote), and then have it send the input number. This is because there is a second issue with the Harmony codes for the Radiance and Radiance Pro. The "Input" button (normally send before the input number when using control systems) is not implemented in their IR code base (at least last time I checked). This turns out to not be an issue since the CLR command clears the OSD and allows the input selection shortcut of just sending the input number to work.
> 
> So add a CLR command, followed by the input number you want to select, to each activity. This input selection method works well.


I've a harmony elite and it isn't showing a Radiance Pro. Just the XS and XD and XE. How do you set it up? I tried searching the thread


----------



## scrowe

MOberhardt said:


> I've a harmony elite and it isn't showing a Radiance Pro. Just the XS and XD and XE. How do you set it up? I tried searching the thread


Use XS - commands are the same I believe


----------



## Peule_P

All Lumagen from XD/XE/XS/Mini/21xx series up to the Pro have the same remote


----------



## Mark Burton

Hi guys, I’ve noticed a strange issue that has only appeared in the past couple of firmware updates (basically since the sharpening tool one).

when watching some 4k films, on the odd occasion where a scene flicks between camera shots, I’m getting a sort of screen tearing around 1/3 the way up my screen, which last for approx 1/10th second. I was watching Moon with a friend, I noticed it straight away, whereas he didn’t until I pointed it out, once you’ve seen it, it’s easy to spot.

Switching off the lumagen and back on again appeared to solve the issue, until I noticed it again on another film on a separate occasion.

I have noticed it on War if the Planet of the Apes, Moon and Jack Reacher so far, but not on any Blu rays.

I’ve rolled back to a pre-sharpening tool update to test it, but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this?

Once I’ve done some testing in the old firmware, if I don’t have the issue I’ll raise a case with lumagen.

Edit: Switching the DeSat to Low instead of auto and switching the MaxCLL back to auto again (was changed due to recent update for zappiti as it strip metadata) appears to have solved the issue, so there does appear to be a bug within this part of the setting.


----------



## jqmn

Mark Burton said:


> Hi guys, I’ve noticed a strange issue that has only appeared in the past couple of firmware updates (basically since the sharpening tool one).
> 
> when watching some 4k films, on the odd occasion where a scene flicks between camera shots, I’m getting a sort of screen tearing around 1/3 the way up my screen, which last for approx 1/10th second. I was watching Moon with a friend, I noticed it straight away, whereas he didn’t until I pointed it out, once you’ve seen it, it’s easy to spot.


I had this exact same issue and asked about it here and with JP. He told me it was my HDMI cable. Given that this never happened in all the years I have used the cable before or after inserting the Lumagen I was doubtful. i haven't see the issue recently and my HDMI cable is unchanged.


----------



## Mark Burton

jqmn said:


> I had this exact same issue and asked about it here and with JP. He told me it was my HDMI cable. Given that this never happened in all the years I have used the cable before or after inserting the Lumagen I was doubtful. i haven't see the issue recently and my HDMI cable is unchanged.


the change of settings seems to have sorted the issue, definitely not a hdmi issue as I changed them all earlier this year.

What is your desat setting?


----------



## feelthesound

Hello any news about the complete 12bits pipe ? And future hdmi card?

Jim, any news of the roadmap?
Regards


----------



## giomania

feelthesound said:


> Hello any news about the complete 12bits pipe ? And future hdmi card?
> 
> Jim, any news of the roadmap?
> Regards





Google Image Result for https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/1/1212/22/12-vulcanite-ebonite-tobacco-pipe_1_5618ff21442b33e149ad8e0896efc4cb.jpg







Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ShaharT

An interesting review of the Envy (in Italian but with CC you can read the translation in English). Not at all trying to start a war, just found it interesting. I'm going to loop for the same scenes and see what I get from a Sony 996 + my Lumagen.


----------



## garyolearysteele

jqmn said:


> I had this exact same issue and asked about it here and with JP. He told me it was my HDMI cable. Given that this never happened in all the years I have used the cable before or after inserting the Lumagen I was doubtful. i haven't see the issue recently and my HDMI cable is unchanged.


😂 it’s always the HDMI cable 😉

Something else to check, game mode had somehow enabled itself on mine giving a screen tear effect between scene changes. The setting was listed as off, but pressing ok showed it on in the info. Flicking it on and off solved it.


----------



## feelthesound

giomania said:


> Google Image Result for https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/1/1212/22/12-vulcanite-ebonite-tobacco-pipe_1_5618ff21442b33e149ad8e0896efc4cb.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Pipe like pipeline, not a tabac tool...


----------



## SJHT

ShaharT said:


> An interesting review of the Envy (in Italian but with CC you can read the translation in English). Not at all trying to start a war, just found it interesting. I'm going to loop for the same scenes and see what I get from a Sony 996 + my Lumagen.


This would be a good place for any comparisons....

VP Compare thread


----------



## garyolearysteele

SJHT said:


> This would be a good place for any comparisons....
> 
> VP Compare thread


Careful, they get a bit emotional on there 😂


----------



## garyolearysteele

garyolearysteele said:


> Careful, they get a bit emotional on there 😂


If that’s the same one where the user woofer was chased out of town by an angry mob for his comparison between madVR and Lumagen...


----------



## garyolearysteele

Anyone here use an Arcam AVR with the Lumagen? Ive been getting random audio drop outs, naturally the cable was blamed, 4 cable changes later and Lumagen say now I should try it with a “mainstream AVR”. In the UK the Arcam is a high end mainstream AVR

I don’t even know what to say at this point tbh, wondering if anyone else has been here and found a solution.
Gary


----------



## dlinsley

garyolearysteele said:


> Anyone here use an Arcam AVR with the Lumagen? Ive been getting random audio drop outs, naturally the cable was blamed, 4 cable changes later and Lumagen say now I should try it with a “mainstream AVR”. In the UK the Arcam is a high end mainstream AVR
> 
> I don’t even know what to say at this point tbh, wondering if anyone else has been here and found a solution.


My system was Radiance Pro -> Arcam AV40 -> 15m fiber HDMI -> JVC RS3000, and I would have drop outs in the video which would also cause the Arcam to drop out the audio sometimes (HDMI resync of the chain). Using an HDMI voltage inserter at the AV40 HDMI output to power the HDMI fiber cable cured it completely.

(The video would be 100% stable when fed directly from the Radiance, so I knew the cable was fine. I'm now using this configuration again since I've moved to Trinnov which doesn't have OSD)


----------



## Karl Maga

garyolearysteele said:


> Anyone here use an Arcam AVR with the Lumagen? Ive been getting random audio drop outs, naturally the cable was blamed, 4 cable changes later and Lumagen say now I should try it with a “mainstream AVR”. In the UK the Arcam is a high end mainstream AVR
> 
> I don’t even know what to say at this point tbh, wondering if anyone else has been here and found a solution.
> Gary


I had drop outs (and erroneous pops) with a Radiance Pro -> Arcam AV40 -> 10m fiber HDMI -> JVC NX7/RS2000 and solved it by replacing the AV40 with a Marantz SR8015. Same cables, etc. Viola! No issues.

The audio issues are well documented with the AV40. It’s horrendous, in my experience, and as reported by many others. My dealer stopped selling Arcam processors because of the collective experience of his buyers.


----------



## MOberhardt

Got mine set-up finally, much thanks to Kris Deering. I couldn't do Blu Ray reviews with the Lumagen. It is like a cheat code. Id know I'm seeing something way better that what someone without one.

It seems to improve the image for 3d as well, although I'm not doing comparisons.


----------



## woofer

MOberhardt said:


> Got mine set-up finally, much thanks to Kris Deering. I couldn't do Blu Ray reviews with the Lumagen. It is like a cheat code. Id know I'm seeing something way better that what someone without one.
> 
> It seems to improve the image for 3d as well, although I'm not doing comparisons.


Michael........ Great to hear your up and running


----------



## jont-uk

garyolearysteele said:


> Anyone here use an Arcam AVR with the Lumagen? Ive been getting random audio drop outs, naturally the cable was blamed, 4 cable changes later and Lumagen say now I should try it with a “mainstream AVR”. In the UK the Arcam is a high end mainstream AVR
> 
> I don’t even know what to say at this point tbh, wondering if anyone else has been here and found a solution.
> Gary


Gary - yes - I’m UK-based too and have audio issues with my Arcam/Lumagen/Sony tv/Epson pj setup ... am working through with [email protected] and Joe at the media factory - current thinking is a HDFury box to separate the audio through the Arcam AVR 550 might be the solution ? ... Jon


----------



## garyolearysteele

jont-uk said:


> Gary - yes - I’m UK-based too and have audio issues with my Arcam/Lumagen/Sony tv/Epson pj setup ... am working through with [email protected] and Joe at the media factory - current thinking is a HDFury box to separate the audio through the Arcam AVR 550 might be the solution ? ... Jon


Great thanks for replying, be interested to hear if that works and I’ll do the same. My system worked perfectly for 2 years before the lumagen was installed, sound quality was fantastic, there’s no way I can replace my AVR.


----------



## steelman1991

jont-uk said:


> Gary - yes - I’m UK-based too and have audio issues with my Arcam/Lumagen/Sony tv/Epson pj setup ... am working through with [email protected] and Joe at the media factory - current thinking is a HDFury box to separate the audio through the Arcam AVR 550 might be the solution ? ... Jon


2 cracking guys - they’ll get you sorted out I’m sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jont-uk

dlinsley said:


> My system was Radiance Pro -> Arcam AV40 -> 15m fiber HDMI -> JVC RS3000, and I would have drop outs in the video which would also cause the Arcam to drop out the audio sometimes (HDMI resync of the chain). Using an HDMI voltage inserter at the AV40 HDMI output to power the HDMI fiber cable cured it completely.


Interesting ... got a part or model number or Amazon link ?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Jon i think i have one in my car. I'll post you it if i can find it. You need a USB power supply thing like a phone charger to plug it in to.


----------



## jont-uk

Gordon Fraser said:


> Jon i think i have one in my car. I'll post you it if i can find it. You need a USB power supply thing like a phone charger to plug it in to.


Thanks Gordon - might be worth a try !


----------



## dlinsley

jont-uk said:


> Interesting ... got a part or model number or Amazon link ?


This is the one that worked for me (I bought this one as it is from the same manufacturer as the fiber cable): Amazon.com: RUIPRO 5V USB power insertor with standard Female HDMI to Male HDMI port: Industrial & Scientific

Edit: Just noticed Gordon might be sorting you out  Similarly, I used a spare Samsung 5V 2A USB phone charger I had in a drawer.


----------



## Karl Maga

garyolearysteele said:


> Great thanks for replying, be interested to hear if that works and I’ll do the same. My system worked perfectly for 2 years before the lumagen was installed, sound quality was fantastic, there’s no way I can replace my AVR.


I too enjoyed the sound of the Arcam AV40 when it wasn’t misbehaving. I was disappointed that it became necessary to part with it.


----------



## balboarules

Peule_P said:


> yes sold my 2144 a few weeks ago as I found dual Lumagens don’t work well with remote control inputs etc. (Had a XS before and a 2143)
> Planning to run a DVDO VP50Pro or Eval board and run that into a Radiance Pro.
> 
> still need to get a Pro so yet have to try this, that is also the reason to sell the 2144 already to raise some funds for it


I would NOT even consider a VP50 Pro, go for the duo if you can if your going to go that way, better comb filter in the unit.


----------



## MDesigns

garyolearysteele said:


> Great thanks for replying, be interested to hear if that works and I’ll do the same. My system worked perfectly for 2 years before the lumagen was installed, sound quality was fantastic, there’s no way I can replace my AVR.


Wheres your Lumagen located in the hdmi chain? If it worked before the Lumagen, have you tried to put it between the AVR and display?


----------



## Peule_P

balboarules said:


> I would NOT even consider a VP50 Pro, go for the duo if you can if your going to go that way, better comb filter in the unit.


thanks, heard similar comments from another user as well, Edge/Duo has better comb filter apparently.
Will see if I can find one local


----------



## SJHT

Xbox Series X arrives today.  Hope it plays well with the Lumagen Pro!


----------



## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> Xbox Series X arrives today.  Hope it plays well with the Lumagen Pro!


Looking for ur comment as I plan to jump from PS4 to xbox X 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

A7mad78 said:


> Looking for ur comment as I plan to jump from PS4 to xbox X
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any suggestions for Lumagen settings with Xbox Series X ? Should processing just be bypassed in game mode? I understand HDR games have settings to do their own tone mapping. 

It’s too bad the Home Screen is still in 1080p.


----------



## dgkula

I have to share this and I hope noone minds - it isnt Lumagen related but I think you'll get a chuckle. I'm sitting in my theater watching Barbarians on Netflix when I start to have some audio issues. It sounds like one or more of the channels is seeing a big drop in volume relative to the other channels. Now other than uploading new firmware I havent changed anything in my theater for over 6 months. Last thing I did was run Audyssey and then integrate my subs with a miniDSP and REW. I put on some test tones on Netflix and, yes it does seem like something is up with the center channel. I switch to the setup mode on the Denon and play test tones - again all channels except the center channel are fine. I think about the chain - cant be the lumagen as I run HDMI out of the lumagen audio out into the AVR and the test tones are output directly into the speakers through my external amps. Could it be the Denon? I'm running outlaw monoblocs off the pre-outs for the LCR. Could the Outlaw amp be shot? Looking in back of the AVR everything looks ok but I accidentally brush a wire and voila full volume through the center channel. More poking around reveals that the RCA cable from the center channel pre-out to the Outlaw monoblock had imperceptibly backed off the AVR pre-out post!! I pushed it back on and we were back in business. Unreal!! There are gremlins everywhere!!


----------



## SJHT

A7mad78 said:


> Looking for ur comment as I plan to jump from PS4 to xbox X
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just fired up and not a single issue. It looks fantastic! Does everything except 4K/120 and Dolby Vision which is correct with my Lumagen Pro and Sony 995. SJ


----------



## A7mad78

SJHT said:


> Just fired up and not a single issue. It looks fantastic! Does everything except 4K/120 and Dolby Vision which is correct with my Lumagen Pro and Sony 995. SJ


Great  enjoy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ShaharT

SJHT said:


> Just fired up and not a single issue. It looks fantastic! Does everything except 4K/120 and Dolby Vision which is correct with my Lumagen Pro and Sony 995. SJ


Enjoy! I should get mine today. Does the Lumagen 'translate' Dolby Vision to 'normal' HDR?
I'm also with the 995  (and counting the days to the GTZ380 I should get sometime in January and which should do 4K/120). How's the Series X so far? Great improvement vs. the previous generation? Do you turn 'game' mode on the Lumgaen, or no need to reduce the lag?


----------



## SJHT

Yes, use game mode. Kris Deering setup my gaming inputs. Wonder if the Lumagen would support 4K/120? Seems like that would require HDMI 2.1. Guess you could run direct to the projector, but that would lose Dolby Atmos unless your AVR can handle, but read about issues with this. Might need to do some planning for your GTX380. For our theater I’m more of a casual gamer and 4K60 HDR is good enough for that setup. Dolby Vision just comes out as HDR10 just like other sources. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

I'm not aware of ANY projector that does 4K120.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> I'm not aware of ANY projector that does 4K120.


Sony GTZ380.
EDIT: And AFAIK the GTZ280 with an additional license.
EDIT2: Additional license (€10.000,-) is also required for the 380.


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Sony GTZ380.
> EDIT: And AFAIK the GTZ280 with an additional license.


Out of interest, over what interface? Is it a consumer one with HDCP?


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> Out of interest, over what interface? Is it a consumer one with HDCP?


To be honest, i don´t have first-hand experience on this. But it appears to me it´s via two DisplayPort-inputs with HDCP 2.3.


----------



## bobof

So probably only any use at all for connection to a PC then for now.


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> So probably only any use at all for connection to a PC then for now.


Yep, it´s more for commercial use with simulators and these kind of things.
But since i´m not aware of any media player that could provide [email protected], i´m not sure if that´s really an issue atm.


----------



## bobof

hockyAVS said:


> Yep, it´s more for commercial use with simulators and these kind of things.
> But since i´m not aware of any media player that could provide [email protected], i´m not sure if that´s really an issue atm.


Well I guess the obvious application people would want this for is gaming, so the connectivity really needs to match the console unless a box in the middle is doing some format translation. Dual display port is a complete waste of time for such devices. PS5 and Xbox X both require HDMI2.1 for 4K 120FPS. So unless the displays have HDMI2.1 (not aware of any PJ yet, but I'm sure there may be one somewhere) it sounds like it doesn't matter.

FYI here you can read a painful article from some poor product manager at Sony trying to justify why their $80k top of the line projector doesn't work with a PS5 at 4k 120Hz... 








HDMI 2.1 isn’t necessary for PS5, says Sony product manager


Sony's new projectors don't have HDMI 2.1, but is that really a problem?




global.techradar.com





Maybe being embarrassed by a $500 console with spur them on to add HDMI2.1, which would of course be good for the whole market if everyone else follows suit.


----------



## Die Zwei

Oh yes, i tend to forget about the gamers...


----------



## riddle

Today JVC released the official new FW v3.50... but what i readed here thats BETA didn't work very well with Lumagen Radiance PRO


----------



## bobof

riddle said:


> Today JVC released the official new FW v3.50... but what i readed here thats BETA didn't work very well with Lumagen Radiance PRO


It sounded like there are some extra hoops to jump through if you are using the HDR flag to switch modes and using SDR gamma output / LUT - you had to upload a 2.4 custom gamma to the projector and select that, as by default HDR flag only let you select HDR gamma or a custom one. I think... I don't have an Nx series unit but that was my recollection of what was required.


----------



## garyolearysteele

blake said:


> Any suggestions for Lumagen settings with Xbox Series X ? Should processing just be bypassed in game mode? I understand HDR games have settings to do their own tone mapping.
> 
> It’s too bad the Home Screen is still in 1080p.


Hey, this is something i'm also interested in, i've just installed the Series X but have been playing around with the PS4 Pro and Xbox X for the past few weeks. At the moment ive settled for disabling HDR, which i know feels like you're disabling something you want, but overall its worked the best so far, though not yet 100% convinced.

With gaming there are a couple of challenges, firstly HDR support is a mixed bag, second of all the in game calibration tools can vary massively from great to none existent. With the Lumagen installed the calibration tools may lose their usefulness. Most ask you to adjust brightness until you can/cannot see test patterns, however with DTM running perhaps you're fighting against that. 

I've mostly being using the PS4 Pro for testing since most games allow you to toggle it quickly, on Xbox its usually a case of quitting the game, changing settings then restarting a game so more difficult to compare.

The games I tested were Call of Duty Modern Warefare Remastered, Little Hope and Last of Us 2. With the CoD, I found I had to really ramp up max light on the Lumagen to get it to look right, I didn't do a lot of testing on that one tbh. As standard i have it set to 240 but it needed to go to 1000 before it looked like the SDR version.

Little Hope is almost entirely in the dark, between HDR and SDR, the latter had much better black levels. Perhaps this can be configured to look better but since im playing this now thats why i've opted for SDR.

Last of Us 2 was more interesting, I would say the difference between the 2 is that they were "different"  With HDR on, my initial impression was "this looks better", certain highlights were picked out and it gave the impression of more detail. However, playing the game for a bit i felt some scenes were perhaps given an unnatural look with some details being over highlighted and lost depth.

If i get chance i'll try pin it down. I've attached some comparison shots, these were the initial ones where HDR seemed to be the better option, on the indoor scene anyway. (I dont use game mode btw, its not that important for adventure games)

Xbox Series X wise, I tried Gears of War 5, HDR and SDR both looked amazing, its hard to pick a difference when you cant quickly swap. 

I'd be interested to know what others have found?, im not really sure what the actual difference is when you enable HDR, e.g. if the game is "mastered" (or whatever the game equivalent is) in HDR and the console tone maps it to SDR, or if you're getting native SDR output, or something in between.


----------



## Clark Burk

riddle said:


> Today JVC released the official new FW v3.50... but what i readed here thats BETA didn't work very well with Lumagen Radiance PRO


Not quite sure what you are saying. I would not expect the LRP to work well with the Theater Optimizer. You only want one tone mapping operation working at a time.


----------



## riddle

Clark Burk said:


> Not quite sure what you are saying. I would not expect the LRP to work well with the Theater Optimizer. You only want one tone mapping operation working at a time.



looks here:



bobof said:


> It sounded like there are some extra hoops to jump through if you are using the HDR flag to switch modes and using SDR gamma output / LUT - you had to upload a 2.4 custom gamma to the projector and select that, as by default HDR flag only let you select HDR gamma or a custom one. I think... I don't have an Nx series unit but that was my recollection of what was required.


----------



## Craig Peer

riddle said:


> looks here:


If you have a Lumagen Radiance Pro, there is no reason to use the JVC dynamic tone mapping too.


----------



## bobof

Craig Peer said:


> If you have a Lumagen Radiance Pro, there is no reason to use the JVC dynamic tone mapping too.


That's not the point. If you're not using the JVC DTM there are still reasons to want the new firmware, like the Profile off / filter on mode which is better for LUT generation. 

Quite a few Lumagen system use the HDR flag to select a different mode for HDR vs SDR, but it seems now you have to jump through some hoops to use this method with the Lumagen doing the tonemapping to 2.4 gamma as the projector doesn't let you very easily set it up for 2.4 gamma, you have to mess around uploading a 2.4 gamma custom gamma to the projector to be able to have a 2.4 gamma to select.


----------



## Clark Burk

bobof said:


> That's not the point. If you're not using the JVC DTM there are still reasons to want the new firmware, like the Profile off / filter on mode which is better for LUT generation.
> 
> Quite a few Lumagen system use the HDR flag to select a different mode for HDR vs SDR, but it seems now you have to jump through some hoops to use this method with the Lumagen doing the tonemapping to 2.4 gamma as the projector doesn't let you very easily set it up for 2.4 gamma, you have to mess around uploading a 2.4 gamma custom gamma to the projector to be able to have a 2.4 gamma to select.


I've heard about the profile off mode but not really sure of the application for it. Would you kindly explain how this setting could be used with the LRP?


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> I've heard about the profile off mode but not really sure of the application for it. Would you kindly explain how this setting could be used with the LRP?


It is really only of use if you have your JVC projector 3DLUT calibrated (which IMHO you should do).

The JVC projectors are colour managed, even if you leave all the CMS options set to 0. What this means is that:

1) in the case where the projector has larger gamut than target, the primaries displayed won't be pure. So for example, green is often reined in in one direction by adding blue to it
2) In the case where the projector has a smaller gamut than target, the colour values stop changing (clip) once you get past a certain point in the gamut. They have to do that to be accurate within the range they can cover. So they're accurate to a point, and then clip.

The combination of the above mean that the display's output gamut is particularly non-linear in relation to the input values, which give a 3DLUT engine a very hard time. Particularly around the gamut edges, where the profile can't possibly measure enough points to accurately work out at which point the gamut starts to clip,

"Profile off" doesn't perform this colour management. Broadly speaking the input values over HDMI are connected directly to the output values on the panel - the display behaves in a more or less linear fashion (give or take panel gamma droop). This gives a great basis for the generation of a 3DLUT.

Up until now, JVC projectors have only had the option of being able to be put into profile off without the cinema filter enabled; yet trying to map a large gamut like P3 is where it would be most useful! There is a hack which is possible to do using some "test mode" IR codes to flip the filter in and try and make it stick,, or using an HDFury or control system to flip the filter in, but it is a bit of a pain.

In this most recent version for Nx, JVC have finally added a menu option to allow you to select this Profile off with filter on mode properly, which gives the best possible basis for generation of a 3DLUT for wide colour gamut on the JVC units. 

Hope that is useful.


----------



## Clark Burk

bobof said:


> It is really only of use if you have your JVC projector 3DLUT calibrated (which IMHO you should do).
> 
> The JVC projectors are colour managed, even if you leave all the CMS options set to 0. What this means is that:
> 
> 1) in the case where the projector has larger gamut than target, the primaries displayed won't be pure. So for example, green is often reined in in one direction by adding blue to it
> 2) In the case where the projector has a smaller gamut than target, the colour values stop changing (clip) once you get past a certain point in the gamut. They have to do that to be accurate within the range they can cover. So they're accurate to a point, and then clip.
> 
> The combination of the above mean that the display's output gamut is particularly non-linear in relation to the input values, which give a 3DLUT engine a very hard time. Particularly around the gamut edges, where the profile can't possibly measure enough points to accurately work out at which point the gamut starts to clip,
> 
> "Profile off" doesn't perform this colour management. Broadly speaking the input values over HDMI are connected directly to the output values on the panel - the display behaves in a more or less linear fashion (give or take panel gamma droop). This gives a great basis for the generation of a 3DLUT.
> 
> Up until now, JVC projectors have only had the option of being able to be put into profile off without the cinema filter enabled; yet trying to map a large gamut like P3 is where it would be most useful! There is a hack which is possible to do using some "test mode" IR codes to flip the filter in and try and make it stick,, or using an HDFury or control system to flip the filter in, but it is a bit of a pain.
> 
> In this most recent version for Nx, JVC have finally added a menu option to allow you to select this Profile off with filter on mode properly, which gives the best possible basis for generation of a 3DLUT for wide colour gamut on the JVC units.
> 
> Hope that is useful.


Thanks, Great explanation!


----------



## loggeo

I believe this post could be useful for any JVC+Lumagen owners, as a 3d lut will definitely be needed for accurate calibration results. 
I updated my jvc rs3000 today to v3.50. I just wanted to take advantage of the new features in conjunction with my Lumagen. I am planning to run multiple 3d lut calibrations during the weekend. 
For starters I wanted to create the basis for a good sdr2020 calibration. I was puzzled by someone posting here that there was a limitation in gamma selection for hdr content, but fortunately he found a work around. 
So here is the work around in pictures!  
Anyone that wants to try this, please do at your own risk (although I don't see anything risky tbh)! 

For starters under hdr10 content, I selected user4 (renamed to Lumagenhdr) as the default picture mode. I will finally have the chance to test the off+color filter on profile.









The Custom 1 tone mapping option was selected and then the correction Value was set to Import.










It was time to ran the jvc calibration software. I connected via IP to my jvc projector and selected gamma.










Here I chose Gamma Custom1 and a Correction value of 2.4.



















I saved the new curve to my PC. A .jgd file will be created.
Next I chose Import/ Export and uploaded my curve to my JVC.










I selected to upload Gamma Data, then chose Custom1 Gamma and I imported my curve.









I hope this helps.


----------



## Jue Liang

loggeo said:


> I believe this post could be useful for any JVC+Lumagen owners, as a 3d lut will definitely be needed for accurate calibration results.
> I updated my jvc rs3000 today to v3.50. I just wanted to take advantage of the new features in conjunction with my Lumagen. I am planning to run multiple 3d lut calibrations during the weekend.
> For starters I wanted to create the basis for a good sdr2020 calibration. I was puzzled by someone posting here that there was a limitation in gamma selection for hdr content, but fortunately he found a work around.
> So here is the work around in pictures!
> Anyone that wants to try this, please do at your own risk (although I don't see anything risky tbh)!
> 
> For starters under hdr10 content, I selected user4 (renamed to Lumagenhdr) as the default picture mode. I will finally have the chance to test the off+color filter on profile.
> View attachment 3055801
> 
> 
> The Custom 1 tone mapping option was selected and then the correction Value was set to Import.
> 
> View attachment 3055802
> 
> 
> It was time to ran the jvc calibration software. I connected via IP to my jvc projector and selected gamma.
> 
> View attachment 3055803
> 
> 
> Here I chose Gamma Custom1 and a Correction value of 2.4.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3055804
> 
> View attachment 3055805
> 
> 
> I saved the new curve to my PC. A .jgd file will be created.
> Next I chose Import/ Export and uploaded my curve to my JVC.
> 
> View attachment 3055807
> 
> 
> I selected to upload Gamma Data, then chose Custom1 Gamma and I imported my curve.
> View attachment 3055808
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.


Thanks. Yes, I posted this a couple months ago, never thought to make graphs as you did, nice work!
just one more thing to keep in mind, when I chose 2.4 as the import gamma, the measured value is 2.26. So I ended up choosing 2.6, which measured 2.45, and then calibrated it to 2.4.


----------



## loggeo

Yes, your post was very helpful and the reason I decided to go through with the update. Thank you.
I plan on measuring the gamma and repeat the process if necessary.


----------



## bjorg

Is it possible to configure _Output 2_ so that it always shows a 1080p signal while _Output 4_ always scales everything to 2160p, similar to what HD Fury Diva does?


----------



## loggeo

I don't think this is possible. Speaking of different output configuration, I would love to see Lumagen going to matrix switching on their next model. 
It is not uncommon for a household to have 2 different displays working simultaneously on different input signal.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Perhaps it could make a cuppuccino as well ....


----------



## bjorg

On the topic of _Sharpness_ and _Darbee_, I've been a huge fan of both as they provide a nice uptick in perceived clarity on my 77" LG OLED. However, for the Sony wall, I had to turn them both off as it accentuated the grain way too much, producing a garish image. Note, I still need to calibrate the Sony, then I'll give sharpening another try. In short, YMMV!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

loggeo said:


> I don't think this is possible. Speaking of different output configuration, I would love to see Lumagen going to matrix switching on their next model.
> It is not uncommon for a household to have 2 different displays working simultaneously on different input signal.


The original beta 4449 Radiance Pro had this but demand was tiny so it was binned.


----------



## audioguy

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> Perhaps it could make a cuppuccino as well ....


As long as we're at it, how about including lattes?


----------



## loggeo

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> Perhaps it could make a cuppuccino as well ....


I am pretty sure I know what a Lumagen can and cannot do. I have been using one since the XD model. I don't think it is excessive for a video processor to offer hdmi matrix switching. Cheaper AVRs offer this fuction. 
If someone uses a lumagen with 2 video outputs doesn't it make sense? Even if you are using the same input shouldn't you be able to use different cms for the 2 displays?


----------



## Dominic Chan

Jue Liang said:


> just one more thing to keep in mind, when I chose 2.4 as the import gamma, the measured value is 2.26. So I ended up choosing 2.6, which measured 2.45, and then calibrated it to 2.4.


Isn't it because the gamma droop which was not corrected using autocal?
EDIT: The native profile is not corrected by Autocal.


----------



## loggeo

A correction value of 2.6 got me closer to a 2.4 gamma too. But it is really messed up on the lower nits. Color tracking is almost excellent though! A lightning lut in calman gave me exceptional results.


----------



## ShaharT

I'm on a Trinnov / Lumagen system. All switching is done through the Lumagen, and the Trinnov receives a single input from it. My sources play in different volume, for example, the cable box is way louder than my apple tv. So whenever I switch a source via the Lumagen I must rush to be Trinnov remote and reduce the volume. Is there a way to increase or decrease volume within Lumagen for different inputs? Had I been switching via the Trinnov it can easily be done per source, but the Trinnov 'sees' all my sources as a single one. Thanks.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

ShaharT said:


> I'm on a Trinnov / Lumagen system. All switching is done through the Lumagen, and the Trinnov receives a single input from it. My sources play in different volume, for example, the cable box is way louder than my apple tv. So whenever I switch a source via the Lumagen I must rush to be Trinnov remote and reduce the volume. Is there a way to increase or decrease volume within Lumagen for different inputs? Had I been switching via the Trinnov it can easily be done per source, but the Trinnov 'sees' all my sources as a single one. Thanks.


I have the same 'issue' .... not saying that it is an issue, rather the result of different sources. It would be nice for some equalization but not sure of the technical aspects to achieve this.


----------



## AgentElite

ShaharT said:


> I'm on a Trinnov / Lumagen system. All switching is done through the Lumagen, and the Trinnov receives a single input from it. My sources play in different volume, for example, the cable box is way louder than my apple tv. So whenever I switch a source via the Lumagen I must rush to be Trinnov remote and reduce the volume. Is there a way to increase or decrease volume within Lumagen for different inputs? Had I been switching via the Trinnov it can easily be done per source, but the Trinnov 'sees' all my sources as a single one. Thanks.


Curious, have you tried allowing the trinnov to do the switching? this way the lumagen only does video. Would there be a downside?


----------



## ShaharT

AgentElite said:


> Curious, have you tried allowing the trinnov to do the switching? this way the lumagen only does video. Would there be a downside?


Lumagen highly recommends doing the switching by the Lumagen processor. That's how I set up my system. I know of few Trinnov users that did not follow this recommendation and things seem to be working fine, so I don't know why Lumagen recommends setting it up this way or what's the downside of ignoring this recommendation. If there's no way to control volume levels amongst different sources when the switching is done by the Lumagen, I might consider changing the order and allowing the Trinnov to do the switching (though I rather not because of the hassle of wiring/programming).


----------



## AgentElite

ShaharT said:


> Lumagen highly recommends doing the switching by the Lumagen processor. That's how I set up my system. I know of few Trinnov users that did not follow this recommendation and things seem to be working fine, so I don't know why Lumagen recommends setting it up this way or what's the downside of ignoring this recommendation. If there's no way to control volume levels amongst different sources when the switching is done by the Lumagen, I might consider changing the order and allowing the Trinnov to do the switching (though I rather not because of the hassle of wiring/programming).












worth a shot.


----------



## Mark Burton

AgentElite said:


> Curious, have you tried allowing the trinnov to do the switching? this way the lumagen only does video. Would there be a downside?





ShaharT said:


> Lumagen highly recommends doing the switching by the Lumagen processor. That's how I set up my system. I know of few Trinnov users that did not follow this recommendation and things seem to be working fine, so I don't know why Lumagen recommends setting it up this way or what's the downside of ignoring this recommendation. If there's no way to control volume levels amongst different sources when the switching is done by the Lumagen, I might consider changing the order and allowing the Trinnov to do the switching (though I rather not because of the hassle of wiring/programming).


currently I can’t get 4k video to pass through when I go all sources into my trinnov and then into my lumagen. 1080p works fine.

I have no idea why, I’ve ordered some new 8k cables to try.

I have a May ’20 built Altitude 16, it has the older hdmi board.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mark Burton said:


> currently I can’t get 4k video to pass through when I go all sources into my trinnov and then into my lumagen. 1080p works fine.
> 
> I have no idea why, I’ve ordered some new 8k cables to try.
> 
> I have a May ’20 built Altitude 16, it has the older hdmi board.


Just checking: you´re aware that only output 2 of the Trinnov supports 4K?


----------



## Mark Burton

hockyAVS said:


> Just checking: you´re aware that only output 2 of the Trinnov supports 4K?


very helpful!!

I didn’t realise and not sure what output I was using, so thanks for letting me know, I’ll test again.

I did watch an Atmos film (Maze runner 3) last night with hdmi switched to 1.4. Had no drop outs at all.

Going to try a dts track later and use the up mixer to see what happens. Hopefully it will work ok and I won’t need to worry about the wiring issue, if not, I’ll try all sources back into the trinnov and use output 2 😎


----------



## scrowe

ShaharT said:


> I'm on a Trinnov / Lumagen system. All switching is done through the Lumagen, and the Trinnov receives a single input from it. My sources play in different volume, for example, the cable box is way louder than my apple tv. So whenever I switch a source via the Lumagen I must rush to be Trinnov remote and reduce the volume. Is there a way to increase or decrease volume within Lumagen for different inputs? Had I been switching via the Trinnov it can easily be done per source, but the Trinnov 'sees' all my sources as a single one. Thanks.


so on my Yamaha it supports listening profiles called ‘Scenes’ that include setting the volume, and my Harmony activity can also set a Scene when switching viewing. Does the Trinnov not do similar?


----------



## EVH78

Gordon Fraser said:


> The original beta 4449 Radiance Pro had this but demand was tiny so it was binned.


It was ahead of it´s time. I wished they would still make those...


----------



## loggeo

Since I needed the hdmi matrix function (kids want to use playstation while I watch a movie), I decided to purchase an hdmi matrix switch. I'd rather pay those money to Lumagen!
I have all my sources connected to the switch. Output 1 goes to Lumagen, 2 to the playroom. Lumagen distributes video to my Oled and my JVC and audio to my trinnov.
Surprisingly it works great!
A little heads up to the trinnov owners:
Input 1-3 comes at hdmi 1.4 by default if I remember correctly, but can be configured to hdmi 2.0.


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone. I have a strange problem with my JVC RS3000 and Lumagen Radiance Pro.
I have had them without any problems until today(almost 100 hours on JVC RS3000 lamp).
When I turned all my equipments on, the screen was green and purple as you can see my photo. The input info on Lumagen showed 1920x2160p 59.94Hz 2D RGB SDR709 which was very strange especially the resolution 1920x2160p. The output info on Lumagen and JVC RS3000 are correct. I turned all my equipments off, waited for about 5 minutes and turned on again, the screen was still green and purple. I decided to restart Apple TV 4k and it came back to normal color and correct info. I continued watching Netflix series without any problems about almost 3 hours.
The turning on sequence I always use is JVC RS3000 >> Lumagen >> Trinnov >> Apple TV 4k. I connect source to Lumagen and output 1 of Lumagen to Trinnov, output 2(the only 18Gbps output on Lumagen) to JVC RS3000. My HDMI cables are Belkin HDMI2.1 2 meters and Pixelgen copper 5 meters which I am quite sure that they are compatible with Lumagen. It works without any problems for almost 100 hours. Lumagen and JVC RS3000 are on the latest firmware update.
Has anyone ever experienced this green and purple screen? What is the cause of it? Do you have a solution to fix it? Is green and purple screen an early sign of HDMI broken board? Does Lumagen have a bug or glitch with new 3.5 JVC RS3000 firmware?
I have attached 6 photos to show you.
Tomorrow I will watch some movies again and will see if I still have this problem.

Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Mark Burton

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone. I have a strange problem with my JVC RS3000 and Lumagen Radiance Pro.
> I have had them without any problems until today(almost 100 hours on JVC RS3000 lamp).
> When I turned all my equipments on, the screen is green and purple as you can see my photo. The input info on Lumagen showed 1920x2160p 59.94Hz 2D RGB SDR709 which was very strange especially the resolution 1920x2160p. The output info on Lumagen and JVC RS3000 are correct. I turned all my equipments off, waited for about 5 minutes and turned on again, the screen was still green and purple. I decided to restart Apple TV 4k and it came back to normal color and correct info. I continued watching Netflix series without any problems about almost 3 hours.
> The turning on sequence I always use is JVC RS3000 >> Lumagen >> Trinnov >> Apple TV 4k. I connect source to Lumagen and output 1 of Lumagen to Trinnov, output 2(the only 18Gbps output on Lumagen) to JVC RS3000. My HDMI cable is Belkin HDMI2.1 2 meters and Pixelgen 5 meters which I am quite sure that they are compatible with Lumagen. It works without any problems for almost 100 hours.
> Has anyone ever experienced this green and purple screen? What is the cause of it? Do you have a solution to fix it? Is green and purple screen an early sign of HDMI broken board?
> Tomorrow I will watch some movies again and will see if I still have this problem.
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


lumagen always recommend a minimum 2m length for hdmi cables. This may be the cause.....


----------



## Nattypol

Mark Burton said:


> lumagen always recommend a minimum 2m length for hdmi cables. This may be the cause.....


All my HDMI cables are longer than 2 meters.
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Roosvelt

loggeo said:


> Since I needed the hdmi matrix function (kids want to use playstation while I watch a movie), I decided to purchase an hdmi matrix switch. I'd rather pay those money to Lumagen!
> I have all my sources connected to the switch. Output 1 goes to Lumagen, 2 to the playroom. Lumagen distributes video to my Oled and my JVC and audio to my trinnov.
> Surprisingly it works great!
> A little heads up to the trinnov owners:
> Input 1-3 comes at hdmi 1.4 by default if I remember correctly, but can be configured to hdmi 2.0.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3056439
> 
> 
> View attachment 3056440


Hi Loggeo, would you please share the link to your hmi matrix switch please, I’m sure I’m not the only one interested


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Nattypol said:


> Has anyone ever experienced this green and purple screen? What is the cause of it? Do you have a solution to fix it? Is green and purple screen an early sign of HDMI broken board? Does Lumagen have a bug or glitch .....


I had the green and purple screen issue and I reported it to Jim Peterson and he suggested that it is the firmware version of the Lumagen. He said that they are working on a fix. I rolled back to the previous version and I don't get the green and purple screen anymore ... so please people don't say that it is your HDMI cables ..... we have heard enough about that !!!!


----------



## A7mad78

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> I had the green and purple screen issue and I reported it to Jim Peterson and he suggested that it is the firmware version of the Lumagen. He said that they are working on a fix. I rolled back to the previous version and I don't get the green and purple screen anymore ... so please people don't say that it is your HDMI cables ..... we have heard enough about that !!!!


I have it not always but when it happen just go forth and back changing the source and come back to normal so I think it’s easy way till the FW rollout 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## loggeo

Roosvelt said:


> Hi Loggeo, would you please share the link to your hmi matrix switch please, I’m sure I’m not the only one interested


Sure it is the Lindy 38162 matrix switch


----------



## docrog

ShaharT said:


> Lumagen highly recommends doing the switching by the Lumagen processor. That's how I set up my system. I know of few Trinnov users that did not follow this recommendation and things seem to be working fine, so I don't know why Lumagen recommends setting it up this way or what's the downside of ignoring this recommendation. If there's no way to control volume levels amongst different sources when the switching is done by the Lumagen, I might consider changing the order and allowing the Trinnov to do the switching (though I rather not because of the hassle of wiring/programming).


Many users of current generation AVRs (with full [email protected] pass through) from several manufacturers have been completely successful in using the AVR as the switching device (configuration #3 in the Lumagen manual), allowing for on-screen AVR GUI (etc.). My Yamaha RX-A3080 performs flawlessly in this configuration, permitting each A/V source to be configured with its own initial volume, etc. (as per @scrowe). I believe that the recommendation of configuration #1 (AVR receiving audio from Lumagen; Lumagen as switching device) evolved before AVRs were capable of outputting a totally unprocessed video signal.


----------



## LJG

EVH78 said:


> It was ahead of it´s time. I wished they would still make those...


I have the last 4449 in the "wild" according to Jim Peterson. I love it and wish he would rethink introducing an updated version....


----------



## EVH78

LJG said:


> I have the last 4449 in the "wild" according to Jim Peterson. I love it and wish he would rethink introducing an updated version....


You lucky one! It would be great if they had an update with independent multiple outputs and introduce hdmi 2.1 boards for the radiance pro.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Does anyone here has any info on when Lumagen will upgrade to HDMI 2.1? 
Are the current 4XXX models also upgradable to 2.1?

Thanks


----------



## AgentElite

docrog said:


> Many users of current generation AVRs (with full [email protected] pass through) from several manufacturers have been completely successful in using the AVR as the switching device (configuration #3 in the Lumagen manual), allowing for on-screen AVR GUI (etc.). My Yamaha RX-A3080 performs flawlessly in this configuration, permitting each A/V source to be configured with its own initial volume, etc. (as per @scrowe). I believe that the recommendation of configuration #1 (AVR receiving audio from Lumagen; Lumagen as switching device) evolved before AVRs were capable of outputting a totally unprocessed video signal.



Good run down. Exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## crtone

ShaharT said:


> Lumagen highly recommends doing the switching by the Lumagen processor. That's how I set up my system. I know of few Trinnov users that did not follow this recommendation and things seem to be working fine, so I don't know why Lumagen recommends setting it up this way or what's the downside of ignoring this recommendation. If there's no way to control volume levels amongst different sources when the switching is done by the Lumagen, I might consider changing the order and allowing the Trinnov to do the switching (though I rather not because of the hassle of wiring/programming).


With my configuration (JVC RS2000+ Radiance Pro with three 18GHz cards ; all sources connected to the Radiance), I have been always trying to find ways to adjust the audio setting on my AVR (Marantz 7011; connected to OUT1). Before I had connected my day time Sansung TV to OUT2 on Radiance via AVR and that way adjust the settings. But that created some instabilities. So I disconnected the Samsung TV.

Your comments is encouraging me to go to the configuration # 3 (use AVR as switching device). Do not know when I will be courageous enough to do that, but am thinking seriously. 

A comment from Jim and/or others would be helful.

Excellent post.


----------



## EVH78

Nattypol said:


> All my HDMI cables are longer than 2 meters.
> Thank you for your help and support.


I had the exact same issue. It´s the firmware, not the cables! I rolled back to a previous version like someone else already suggested.


----------



## Mark Burton

crtone said:


> With my configuration (JVC RS2000+ Radiance Pro with three 18GHz cards ; all sources connected to the Radiance), I have been always trying to find ways to adjust the audio setting on my AVR (Marantz 7011; connected to OUT1). Before I had connected my day time Sansung TV to OUT2 on Radiance via AVR and that way adjust the settings. But that created some instabilities. So I disconnected the Samsung TV.
> 
> Your comments is encouraging me to go to the configuration # 3 (use AVR as switching device). Do not know when I will be courageous enough to do that, but am thinking seriously.
> 
> A comment from Jim and/or others would be helful.
> 
> Excellent post.


Marantz has an excellent hdmi board so I would suggest letting this do your switching, worked perfectly on my two previous 8805.


----------



## tigerhonaker

crtone said:


> With my configuration (JVC RS2000+ Radiance Pro with three 18GHz cards ; all sources connected to the Radiance), I have been always trying to find ways to adjust the audio setting on my AVR (Marantz 7011; connected to OUT1). Before I had connected my day time Sansung TV to OUT2 on Radiance via AVR and that way adjust the settings. But that created some instabilities. So I disconnected the Samsung TV.
> 
> Your comments is encouraging me to go to the configuration # 3 (use AVR as switching device). Do not know when I will be courageous enough to do that, but am thinking seriously.
> 
> A comment from Jim and/or others would be helful.
> 
> Excellent post.





Mark Burton said:


> Marantz has an excellent hdmi board so I would suggest letting this do your switching, worked perfectly on my two previous 8805.


Mark,

I have the Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor and the Lumagen Radiance Pro Model 4242.
All switching is done with my Marantz *"NOT"* the Lumagen.
And I have had Zero-Issues using the Marantz doing the switching.
I went that direction ^^^ simply because I want to see on the screen what I am doing when using the remotes.

Terry


----------



## bobof

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Does anyone here has any info on when Lumagen will upgrade to HDMI 2.1?
> Are the current 4XXX models also upgradable to 2.1?


Until there are projection displays with HDMI2.1 it seems largely irrelevant for the vast majority of the customer base for these units. I don't see the market for them being hooked up to OLEDs etc being worth addressing. I recall you last asked about this over 2 years ago and it wasn't really a factor then, and it still isn't. I really don't expect us to see HDMI 2.1 in high end projection for the next 18 months at least still - see recent article from an embarrassed Sony product manager on why their $80K top of the line new model still doesn't support HDMI2.1 from a $500 console:








HDMI 2.1 isn’t necessary for PS5, says Sony product manager


Sony's new projectors don't have HDMI 2.1, but is that really a problem?




global.techradar.com





I don't think anything has changed with respect to the current HW in the intervening times, these units still have the same architecture... The 42xx series for sure have only 18G internal bandwidth.

I think it is safest to think of them as 4K HDMI 2.0b units personally, you'll not be disappointed that way, and get a lot of benefit from them. I've had great tone mapping now for over 2 years from my unit. With anything HDMI you could put off purchase forever as there will always be an update on the horizon, and it's never clear updates are a certainty.


----------



## Mark Burton

tigerhonaker said:


> Mark,
> 
> I have the Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor and the Lumagen Radiance Pro Model 4242.
> All switching is done with my Marantz *"NOT"* the Lumagen.
> And I have had Zero-Issues using the Marantz doing the switching.
> I went that direction ^^^ simply because I want to see on the screen what I am doing when using the remotes.
> 
> Terry


this is the way I had it myself, worked perfectly for the entire time I had it.

Not so much luck so far on my trinnov doing it this way though, trying again tomorrow with some new 8k cables. 🙄


----------



## blake

Mark Burton said:


> this is the way I had it myself, worked perfectly for the entire time I had it.
> 
> Not so much luck so far on my trinnov doing it this way though, trying again tomorrow with some new 8k cables.


Despite Trinnov costing 20x the price of a Marantz AVR, their HDMI board evidently is not great. Not sure if that’s changed with their latest hardware.


----------



## bjorg

Well, the Radiance Pro amazes me once again! My screen can't scale the input signal, which means it's entirely dependent on the Radiance Pro to produce the correct signal. In addition, it has an odd ball native resolution of 3520x1800 (2:1 AR). For most content, I just feed it 3840x2160 and crop off the image on all four sides. When need be, I use the shrink feature to fit everything on the screen.

However, for 3D, it's a bit trickier. 3D is always HD (1920x1080), which means it only uses ~1/4 of the screen's real-estate. Also, the 3D signal had to be converted from frame-packed to frame-sequential. However, with Jim's help, I was able to change the output signal to fill the screen with glorious 3D! It's not perfect as the output scaling introduces some jaggies, but it still looks incredible.

Big thanks to Jim and his team for building such a truly amazing product! Well done! Woohoo!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

Mark Burton said:


> this is the way I had it myself, worked perfectly for the entire time I had it.
> 
> Not so much luck so far on my trinnov doing it this way though, trying again tomorrow with some new 8k cables. 🙄


Mark,

Just throwing this out there as it could possibly be helpful.
Have you reached out to like "Audioguy" (Chuck) ???
He has the Trinnov and the Lumagen plus the RS4500.
And if I am correct and I think I am.
Chuck knows the *Trinnov Very-very* well indeed !!!

As I said it's worth a try and a little effort to touch base with him.

This guy below,
*








audioguy







www.avsforum.com




*
Terry


----------



## Kris Deering

tigerhonaker said:


> Mark,
> 
> Just throwing this out there as it could possibly be helpful.
> Have you reached out to like "Audioguy" (Chuck) ???
> He has the Trinnov and the Lumagen plus the RS4500.
> And if I am correct and I think I am.
> Chuck knows the *Trinnov Very-very* well indeed !!!
> 
> As I said it's worth a try and a little effort to touch base with him.
> 
> This guy below,
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audioguy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Terry


If he reaches out to anyone it should be Lumagen. And in this specific case, the same can be said as Jim Peterson of Lumagen uses a Trinnov Altitude and a RS4500 with his Lumagen. So he's more than familiar with this usage case.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy







www.avsforum.com






Mark Burton said:


> this is the way I had it myself, worked perfectly for the entire time I had it.
> 
> Not so much luck so far on my trinnov doing it this way though, trying again tomorrow with some new 8k cables. 🙄





tigerhonaker said:


> Mark,
> 
> Just throwing this out there as it could possibly be helpful.
> Have you reached out to like "Audioguy" (Chuck) ???
> He has the Trinnov and the Lumagen plus the RS4500.
> And if I am correct and I think I am.
> Chuck knows the *Trinnov Very-very* well indeed !!!
> 
> As I said it's worth a try and a little effort to touch base with him.
> 
> This guy below,
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audioguy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Terry





Kris Deering said:


> If he reaches out to anyone it should be Lumagen. And in this specific case, the same can be said as Jim Peterson of Lumagen uses a Trinnov Altitude and a RS4500 with his Lumagen. So he's more than familiar with this usage case.


Thanks Kris,

I did know Jim P. had the RS4500 and I think even the ST130 G4 screen but didn't know about him also having the Trinnov.

So Mark you have multiple choices and one of them Jim Peterson is Lumagen so things are looking good for you getting the Trinnov situation resolved buddy.

Terry


----------



## jpvision

Does anyone have any info on how the dynamic tone mapping settings work? What does each setting do? I'm having a hard time getting it dialed in for my TV.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> If he reaches out to anyone it should be Lumagen. And in this specific case, the same can be said as Jim Peterson of Lumagen uses a Trinnov Altitude and a RS4500 with his Lumagen. So he's more than familiar with this usage case.


I vote for Kris' recommendation. If it has *ANYTHING* to do with video, I am 2nd to the last guy on the planet to ask for advice.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> I vote for Kris' recommendation. If it has *ANYTHING* to do with video, I am 2nd to the last guy on the planet to ask for advice.


Chuck,

Actually the reason I thought of you was Mark referring to issues with his Trinnov.
But .............
Maybe the real issues are with the Lumagen more so than the Trinnov.

Way-way over my head that's for sure.

Terry


----------



## Mark Burton

tigerhonaker said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Actually the reason I thought of you was Mark referring to issues with his Trinnov.
> But .............
> Maybe the real issues are with the Lumagen more so than the Trinnov.
> 
> Way-way over my head that's for sure.
> 
> Terry


I actually think it’s a trinnov issue, although not sure just yet. Had some new firmware installed on my altitude earlier (there customer service is fantastic) so will try again soon.

If that doesn’t work, I’m going to have to take the lumagen out of the chain just to make sure it isn’t causing me the issue.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Hi all.

I’m experiencing audio sync issues with 24p content, audio is 1 or 2 frames ahead of video based on the Disney WOW test disc. I wondered if this is something I can fix with the lumagen, it looks like I can only delay video.

Genlock seems to have made things a little better with Netflix on Apple TV but My Panasonic UB9000 still has audio ahead, at least with SDR blu rays (not tested anything else)

Thanks in advance
Gary


----------



## docrog

This may be a bit off topic..... "The Crown" on Netflix is listed as being in UHD/HDR on my Roku and UHD/DolbyVision on my ATV4K. My RP does indicate HDR for Roku, but only SDR for the ATV4K. Can anyone explain this? Is there any way to coax HDR10 from the ATV4K's DV or should I just stick with the Roku?


----------



## ccool96

docrog said:


> This may be a bit off topic..... "The Crown" on Netflix is listed as being in UHD/HDR on my Roku and UHD/DolbyVision on my ATV4K. My RP does indicate HDR for Roku, but only SDR for the ATV4K. Can anyone explain this? Is there any way to coax HDR10 from the ATV4K's DV or should I just stick with the Roku?


Yes. The AppleTV automatically converts Dolby Vision to HDR10. 

Set the Apple TV resolution to 4K SDR 60HZ 

Then turn ON “Match Frame Rate” and “Match Dynamic Range” 

Then it will automatically switch between SDR / HDR and adjust the frame rate according to the content. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ShaharT

How do you use the Lumagen on a scope screen without an anamorphic lends? Does it require zooming in/out the projector whenever you switch from say 2.4 content to 16:9 content? 

At the moment I have a DCR Paladin on a Sony 995 projector, so the projector lens stays fixed, and the Lumagen does the magical auto-aspect thing. I added the DCR Paladin anamorphic lens (per my installer recommendation) for two reasons - to increase light output and to get the 'extra pixels' on the scope screen. However, switching soon (counting the days!) to a Sony GTZ380 projector, that has 10,000 lumens, I guess light-output is no longer an issue, so I'm not sure if I still "need" the DCR lens or there's another way (e.g. zoom in / out) or yet another way (Lumagen magic) to switch ratios on a scope screen without an anamorphic lens.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf



Just the same as you currently do. Except slightly different settings in scaler


----------



## blake

Gordon Fraser said:


> http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Just the same as you currently do. Except slightly different settings in scaler


I didn’t realize you could use a 16:9 (or presumably 17:9) projector with a 2.40 screen and be able to switch between the two aspect ratios WITHOUT using the lens memory/optical zoom of your projector ! I always thought a paladin dcr was needed for these seamless / non-mechanical aspect ratio changes. 

Is there a down side to using the Lumagen to switch aspect ratios as opposed to projector Zoom ? Are you losing light output when moving down to 16:9 ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

ShaharT said:


> How do you use the Lumagen on a scope screen without an anamorphic lends? Does it require zooming in/out the projector whenever you switch from say 2.4 content to 16:9 content?
> 
> At the moment I have a DCR Paladin on a Sony 995 projector, so the projector lens stays fixed, and the Lumagen does the magical auto-aspect thing. I added the DCR Paladin anamorphic lens (per my installer recommendation) for two reasons - to increase light output and to get the 'extra pixels' on the scope screen. However, switching soon (counting the days!) to a Sony GTZ380 projector, that has 10,000 lumens, I guess light-output is no longer an issue, so I'm not sure if I still "need" the DCR lens or there's another way (e.g. zoom in / out) or yet another way (Lumagen magic) to switch ratios on a scope screen without an anamorphic lens.


It works much the same. At the moment your Lumagen is digitally downscaling horizontally to fit 16x9 content to the screen with the DCR in place, and digitally upscaling vertically to fit 2.4 content to the screen.

Without the lens in place, you could set it to do no scaling either way for 2.4 content (you could use native 1:1 pixel mapping) and digitally downscale horizontally and vertically to fit the screen for 16:9. 

If you set up the aspect stuff following the Lumagen tech tip for anamorphic without a lens it should just all fall into place. Fixed zoom method at the beginning of the following doc:


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


Variable zoom method is the variant that uses the lens zoom.

Note that you might or might not prefer to zoom optically over the additional vertical downscale. The downscale isn't quite as good as the upscale on the Lumagen units, I think it uses a simpler algorithm. On the other hand, zooming means waiting for lens to move, and being subject to the lens driftage that often happens to parameters when moving between lens memories. Zooming optically also means you need to separately calibrate the different zoom positions, as they will usually have different brightness and contrast and maybe even colorimetry, whereas when done digitally 16:9 and 2.4:1 use the same calibration.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Is there a down side to using the Lumagen to switch aspect ratios as opposed to projector Zoom ? *Are you losing light output when moving down to 16:9 ?*


This is for the most part an advantage, not disadvantage.
Assuming your projector is sized correctly at 2.4 and calibrated to reference, then zooming out to fit 16:9 to screen increases the brightness and ruins your SDR calibration - you now have higher than reference light level for 16:9. Who needs 16:9 to be brighter for no good reason? Your 2.4 was already at reference levels.
Of course, there is a slight advantage that if you have adjustable iris, you could then reduce the iris and get more contrast. But who needs more contrast for 16:9 than for scope? Scope was surely the prime content that you designed your system around when choosing a scope screen. Plus changing the iris usually changes the colorimetry of the projector and gamma, so in doing that you should be calibrating again for 16:9.


----------



## Sandel

blake said:


> I didn’t realize you could use a 16:9 (or presumably 17:9) projector with a 2.40 screen and be able to switch between the two aspect ratios WITHOUT using the lens memory/optical zoom of your projector ! I always thought a paladin dcr was needed for these seamless / non-mechanical aspect ratio changes.
> 
> Is there a down side to using the Lumagen to switch aspect ratios as opposed to projector Zoom ? Are you losing light output when moving down to 16:9 ?


A downside of having a downscaled 16.9 picture within the 21:9 lens setting of the projector is that you're losing a bit resolution. A Paladin DCR or similar helps to reduce this pixel loss.


----------



## MOberhardt

Anyone with a Sony use it to take advantage of the full width panel for 2.35:1 with a 16:9 screen, using lens memory plus the Lumagen to generate a 4096 wide image? Or is 4096 signal impossible for the projector to process?


----------



## Die Zwei

MOberhardt said:


> Anyone with a Sony use it to take advantage of the full width panel for 2.35:1 with a 16:9 screen, using lens memory plus the Lumagen to generate a 4096 wide image? Or is 4096 signal impossible for the projector to process?


In general, 4096 works just fine with the Sonys. However, i´m running at 3840 because i´m using frame interpolation (doesn´t work with 4096) and the fact that since there is no content in 4096, you always have to scale which is something i try to avoid.


----------



## docrog

ccool96 said:


> Yes. The AppleTV automatically converts Dolby Vision to HDR10.
> 
> Set the Apple TV resolution to 4K SDR 60HZ
> 
> Then turn ON “Match Frame Rate” and “Match Dynamic Range”
> 
> Then it will automatically switch between SDR / HDR and adjust the frame rate according to the content.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That worked! Thanks for providing that bit of counterintuitive information (the need to specify SDR when what you really want is HDR10 after dynamic range matching had already been enabled); much appreciated.


----------



## bobof

Sandel said:


> A downside of having a downscaled 16.9 picture within the 21:9 lens setting of the projector is that you're losing a bit resolution. A Paladin DCR or similar helps to reduce this pixel loss.


Although true, if you already decided the pixel density achieved for your prime 2.4:1 content was enough, then 16:9 is still just as good as that (give or take any effect from the scaling that you don't like). Same amount of onscreen pixels per degree of FOV.
It's a bit similar to saying you're losing brightness by not zooming. While true, it's brightness you already decided you didn't need for your best content presentation.
I think it's possible to make arguments for either position to be honest.


----------



## Sandel

bobof said:


> Although true, if you already decided the pixel density achieved for your prime 2.4:1 content was enough, then 16:9 is still just as good as that (give or take any effect from the scaling that you don't like). Same amount of onscreen pixels per degree of FOV.
> It's a bit similar to saying you're losing brightness by not zooming. While true, it's brightness you already decided you didn't need for your best content presentation.
> I think it's possible to make arguments for either position to be honest.


Don't get me wrong, I'm using this CIH setting with a Paladin DCR and I'm quite happy with it. I was just pointing out that there ain't a pixel by pixel reproduction any longer with this setup.


----------



## tigerhonaker

tigerhonaker said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Actually the reason I thought of you was Mark referring to issues with his Trinnov.
> But .............
> Maybe the real issues are with the Lumagen more so than the Trinnov.
> 
> Way-way over my head that's for sure.
> 
> Terry





Mark Burton said:


> I actually think it’s a trinnov issue, although not sure just yet. Had some new firmware installed on my altitude earlier (there customer service is fantastic) so will try again soon.
> 
> If that doesn’t work, I’m going to have to take the lumagen out of the chain just to make sure it isn’t causing me the issue.


Mark,

I thought maybe if the issue was with the Trinnov maybe you and audioguy (Chuck) could simply-quickly compare settings.
Anyway, if you remove the Lumagen then it seems that will put the issues to the Trinnov.
If that does turn-out to be what's happening then a call to Customer Support at Trinnov and away you go.

I did a few times consider switching from my Marantz AV8805 to the Trinnov.
But, here where I live having the Trinnov would not be a smart decision at all.
My A/V Dealer doesn't handle it ^^^ so install-set-up and support would be a Nightmare.
I'd have to try to find a local to me Trinnov Authorized Dealer and to me based on how my current Marantz AV8805 "*Performs*" I see no reason to change.
I think to me this is one of those times a person should simply look at the Bigger-Picture and after doing so make a Common-Sense decision on what's smarter for their HT.

Good-Luck,
Terry


----------



## Mark Burton

tigerhonaker said:


> Mark,
> 
> I thought maybe if the issue was with the Trinnov maybe you and audioguy (Chuck) could simply-quickly compare settings.
> Anyway, if you remove the Lumagen then it seems that will put the issues to the Trinnov.
> If that does turn-out to be what's happening then a call to Customer Support at Trinnov and away you go.
> 
> I did a few times consider switching from my Marantz AV8805 to the Trinnov.
> But, here where I live having the Trinnov would not be a smart decision at all.
> My A/V Dealer doesn't handle it ^^^ so install-set-up and support would be a Nightmare.
> I'd have to try to find a local to me Trinnov Authorized Dealer and to me based on how my current Marantz AV8805 "*Performs*" I see no reason to change.
> I think to me this is one of those times a person should simply look at the Bigger-Picture and after doing so make a Common-Sense decision on what's smarter for their HT.
> 
> Good-Luck,
> Terry


new firmware update from trinnovs amazing support seems to have solved the problem. Two films with no drop outs at all.


----------



## dlinsley

Firmware fix for green/purple is up. I don't have this issue with my AppleTV 4K and Roku, so can't confirm it does fix it.


----------



## audioguy

tigerhonaker said:


> I did a few times consider switching from my Marantz AV8805 to the Trinnov.
> But, here where I live having the Trinnov would not be a smart decision at all.
> My A/V Dealer doesn't handle it ^^^ so install-set-up and support would be a Nightmare.
> I'd have to try to find a local to me Trinnov Authorized Dealer and to me based on how my current Marantz AV8805 "*Performs*" I see no reason to change.
> I think to me this is one of those times a person should simply look at the Bigger-Picture and after doing so make a Common-Sense decision on what's smarter for their HT.
> 
> Good-Luck,
> Terry


OT but in response to your comments: Very few Trinnov dealers actually do any of the setup. The dealers use folks like Adam Pelz, other calibrators -- or even me. We/they do the setup and installation. One of the many advantages of this product is remote support. I have remote access to all of my clients Altitudes as does Adam, any other recognized calibrators as well as Trinnov. 

Go to the Trinnov thread and you will hear from virtually all owners that the support is far superior to any other processor (or maybe any other AV product) on the market - and certainly better than my Denon and Marantz processors and my Datasat RS20i. The product has a 5 year warranty and when it gets near the end of that period, you can extend it for another 5 years. I could go on. The price of entry is far from inexpensive but you get what you pay for. Not another processor on the planet will give you that sense of immersion. Adam Pelz lives near you and might be amenable to a demo. And he can probably sell you one and calibrate it as well.

BUT, don't go listen unless you are prepared to spend the money. It is that good!


----------



## WCEaglesMan

dlinsley said:


> Firmware fix for green/purple is up. I don't have this issue with my AppleTV 4K and Roku, so can't confirm it does fix it.


I will load this update later as I had this issue. I rolled back to a previous version (093020) where I didn't have the issue. Hope this new update will fix it.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Firmware fix for green/purple is up. I don't have this issue with my AppleTV 4K and Roku, so can't confirm it does fix it.


I've just installed and at a cursory glance it appears to be good, hopefully it is robust. We'll see over the next few days.


----------



## jrp

Notes on 110120 release:

We have had some reports on DTM scene cuts that go back and forth between two views and having different levels on the second time for one or both views. The 110120 release fixes some of these, but more work remains. We need to do further improvements on the "Zone Based" analysis. Some "explosion scenes" can fool the current Zone algorithm. Patrick is working on enhancing the algorithm to cover these more difficult cases.

We are also starting to get report of DTM issues at 60 Hertz. Really best that 24 Hertz content be sent as 24 Hertz from the source, but we are looking at the issues caused sending 24 Hertz content at 60 Hertz. The frame "pull-down" needed for this is a problem that has to be special cased since every frame is [EDIT] repeated twice, or three times. This is not a factor at 24 Hertz, and Patrick is working on a solution. I think there are other tweaks needed at 60 Hertz as well.

Please email any scenes you see DTM issues with (source device, movie/program, video rate to the Radiance Pro, and timestamp) to lumagen.com support email so we know what to look at.


----------



## Sittler27

Where do I go in the menu system to input my peak HDR brightness nits?

Where do I go in the menu system to adjust lip sync (one input where audio lags behind video)?


----------



## WCEaglesMan

bobof said:


> I've just installed and at a cursory glance it appears to be good, hopefully it is robust. We'll see over the next few days.


I have just installed 110120 and it appears to be good ... no green and purple screen on power up. I will also monitor this in the next few days.


----------



## Clark Burk

Is it a good idea to perform a factory reset after doing all firmware updates?


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> Is it a good idea to perform a factory reset after doing all firmware updates?


I've never done this, I don't think it would serve any purpose other than giving you another job (config reload). Of course, if your update got messed up, then that's another matter. But not as a matter of course.

Some recommend doing the bootloader update instead of the running update (basically you initiate the update within a few sec of turning on at the wall). I can't say I've done that more than a couple of times, and each time it turned out to be chasing something which later was some other issue (so the bootloader update was done in the hope it would fix it, but it never did, it was either a new update or different setting that benefited).


----------



## Clark Burk

Thanks. Just checking as I know Oppo always recommended doing a reset after doing a firmware update.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> OT but in response to your comments: Very few Trinnov dealers actually do any of the setup. The dealers use folks like Adam Pelz, other calibrators -- or even me. We/they do the setup and installation. One of the many advantages of this product is remote support. I have remote access to all of my clients Altitudes as does Adam, any other recognized calibrators as well as Trinnov.
> 
> Go to the Trinnov thread and you will hear from virtually all owners that the support is far superior to any other processor (or maybe any other AV product) on the market - and certainly better than my Denon and Marantz processors and my Datasat RS20i. The product has a 5 year warranty and when it gets near the end of that period, you can extend it for another 5 years. I could go on. The price of entry is far from inexpensive but you get what you pay for. Not another processor on the planet will give you that sense of immersion. Adam Pelz lives near you and might be amenable to a demo. And he can probably sell you one and calibrate it as well.
> 
> BUT, don't go listen unless you are prepared to spend the money. It is that good!


Chuck,

I'll try not to derail this thread off Lumagen simply to say .............
I did hear from,








appelz (Adam)
And he is super close to where I live in Franklin.
He is in Murfreesboro which is approximately 30-miles and 45-minutes from Franklin.

Thanks for the Heads-Up .....................

Terry


----------



## MOberhardt

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> I have just installed 110120 and it appears to be good ... no green and purple screen on power up. I will also monitor this in the next few days.


Was this just a timing/handshaking thing? All of my stuff is started by a Harmony activity, so I have projector and Lumagen start first, a delay then AVR, a delay, then source device. I've not seen the green purple.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Hi all - Anything special I need to do when plugging in a PS5 to my Lumagen?

Particularly around the Video setup on the PS5, when it asks me to make things brighter or darker for the HDR setup?

Lastly, is there settings on the Lumagen I should consider for gaming?

Any info much appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## WCEaglesMan

MOberhardt said:


> Was this just a timing/handshaking thing? All of my stuff is started by a Harmony activity, so I have projector and Lumagen start first, a delay then AVR, a delay, then source device. I've not seen the green purple.


No nothing to do with any cable issue (ha, ha) or timing issues. It is just that something in the previous update upset the colour settings rather abysmally. Jim Peterson doesn't know (hasn't said) what it was but it was the previous firmware update was at fault. So far so good with the 110120 update - no green and purple screen.


----------



## sjschaff

Sorry if this has already been answered in this forum or another. I just installed Win10 under BootCamp on a MacBook Air (last year's model). I find that plugging in the cable from the Lumagen Pro to the MacBook running Win10 under BootCamp via any USB Serial Converter (either Apple or others) is problematic. No device driver is in evidence to support the adapter, and consequently, I think, that's why I see no COM ports showing up under Device Manager. Anyone have a pointer or two to fix this so I can run firmware updates?

Nevermind...just discovered that I needed to get a virtual FTDICHIP driver based on a prior post from Jim about 4 months ago. All is well.


----------



## MOberhardt

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> No nothing to do with any cable issue (ha, ha) or timing issues. It is just that something in the previous update upset the colour settings rather abysmally. Jim Peterson doesn't know (hasn't said) what it was but it was the previous firmware update was at fault. So far so good with the 110120 update - no green and purple screen.


Just weird how it didn't affect everyone.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

MOberhardt said:


> Just weird how it didn't affect everyone.


Yes it gives each update a certain mystique .... will it work for me?


----------



## Mike_WI

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> No nothing to do with any cable issue (ha, ha) or timing issues. It is just that something in the previous update upset the colour settings rather abysmally. Jim Peterson doesn't know (hasn't said) what it was but it was the previous firmware update was at fault. So far so good with the 110120 update - no green and purple screen.


I don't think handshake.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Mike_WI said:


> I don't think handshake.


Correct it had nothing to do with that ... it was just the firmware!!!!


----------



## bobof

If you watch the sequence of events in the firmware releases, it appears an attempt was made to fix an issue with another device combination that led to this issue spreading to other combinations that previously hadn't been affected.


----------



## garyolearysteele

DannyBoy73 said:


> Hi all - Anything special I need to do when plugging in a PS5 to my Lumagen?
> 
> Particularly around the Video setup on the PS5, when it asks me to make things brighter or darker for the HDR setup?
> 
> Lastly, is there settings on the Lumagen I should consider for gaming?
> 
> Any info much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


I did some experimentation with mine yesterday.

In my opinion, disabling HDR on the PS5 is the best way to go. For some games, there isn’t much in it, but overall I’ve found SDR to be more consistent.

Interestingly, unlike the PS4 pro, using the in game option to switch HDR on and off doesn’t actually change the output signal but rather changes the the colour mode internally (or whatever the tech term is). Using LoU2 as a test, flicking HDR on and off changes the image, “On” looks as it did before, off does look closer to SDR but it’s still outputting HDR2020 and so it’s some hybrid of the 2 with DTM applied to SDR in a 2020 container (already).

A good test is to play Last of Us 2 if you have it, in the opening sequence as you travel over the hill with bright sunlight on the horizon. In HDR I can see the round sun, in SDR it’s a blinding light. Swapping between the two I can see different colours, with SDR on my setup having more depth and contrast (to my eye). Perhaps it’s a case of sacrificing a slightly wider colour gamut (on my Sony) for more consistent luminance/contrast. Generally the HDR version looks brighter overall but in some cases unnaturally so.

Since it’s close, I went with SDR, the lumagen DTM wasn’t designed for games. And because games don’t have scene changes and are full of explosions and lighting changes at 60hz I wouldn’t be surprised if they cause it problems.

Either way, in a light controlled room, games jump off the screen and you’ll never look at it and think it looks off in either mode. Spider-man looks as good if not better than my LG OLED when played in SDR on the big screen vs HDR on a TV..

I will try to some like for like comparisons with my TV to see which mode gets closest to native HDR and report back. The gaming version of “as the director intended” 

I’d be interested to hear what others think on this ?


----------



## DannyBoy73

garyolearysteele said:


> I did some experimentation with mine yesterday.
> 
> In my opinion, disabling HDR on the PS5 is the best way to go. For some games, there isn’t much in it, but overall I’ve found SDR to be more consistent.
> 
> Interestingly, unlike the PS4 pro, using the in game option to switch HDR on and off doesn’t actually change the output signal but rather changes the the colour mode internally (or whatever the tech term is). Using LoU2 as a test, flicking HDR on and off changes the image, “On” looks as it did before, off does look closer to SDR but it’s still outputting HDR2020 and so it’s some hybrid of the 2 with DTM applied to SDR in a 2020 container (already).
> 
> A good test is to play Last of Us 2 if you have it, in the opening sequence as you travel over the hill with bright sunlight on the horizon. In HDR I can see the round sun, in SDR it’s a blinding light. Swapping between the two I can see different colours, with SDR on my setup having more depth and contrast (to my eye). Perhaps it’s a case of sacrificing a slightly wider colour gamut (on my Sony) for more consistent luminance/contrast. Generally the HDR version looks brighter overall but in some cases unnaturally so.
> 
> Since it’s close, I went with SDR, the lumagen DTM wasn’t designed for games. And because games don’t have scene changes and are full of explosions and lighting changes at 60hz I wouldn’t be surprised if they cause it problems.
> 
> Either way, in a light controlled room, games jump off the screen and you’ll never look at it and think it looks off in either mode. Spider-man looks as good if not better than my LG OLED when played in SDR on the big screen vs HDR on a TV..
> 
> I will try to some like for like comparisons with my TV to see which mode gets closest to native HDR and report back. The gaming version of “as the director intended”
> 
> I’d be interested to hear what others think on this ?


Awesome, thanks for that info, I'll defo have a play as I'm not completely happy with it at the mo. I'll report my findings back.


----------



## blake

Thanks for the PS5 report. 

If someone has an Xbox Series X and Lumagen please report that too !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## telem

LJG said:


> I have the last 4449 in the "wild" according to Jim Peterson. I love it and wish he would rethink introducing an updated version....


One here as well


----------



## SFenton24

garyolearysteele said:


> I did some experimentation with mine yesterday.
> 
> In my opinion, disabling HDR on the PS5 is the best way to go. For some games, there isn’t much in it, but overall I’ve found SDR to be more consistent.
> 
> Interestingly, unlike the PS4 pro, using the in game option to switch HDR on and off doesn’t actually change the output signal but rather changes the the colour mode internally (or whatever the tech term is). Using LoU2 as a test, flicking HDR on and off changes the image, “On” looks as it did before, off does look closer to SDR but it’s still outputting HDR2020 and so it’s some hybrid of the 2 with DTM applied to SDR in a 2020 container (already).
> 
> A good test is to play Last of Us 2 if you have it, in the opening sequence as you travel over the hill with bright sunlight on the horizon. In HDR I can see the round sun, in SDR it’s a blinding light. Swapping between the two I can see different colours, with SDR on my setup having more depth and contrast (to my eye). Perhaps it’s a case of sacrificing a slightly wider colour gamut (on my Sony) for more consistent luminance/contrast. Generally the HDR version looks brighter overall but in some cases unnaturally so.
> 
> Since it’s close, I went with SDR, the lumagen DTM wasn’t designed for games. And because games don’t have scene changes and are full of explosions and lighting changes at 60hz I wouldn’t be surprised if they cause it problems.
> 
> Either way, in a light controlled room, games jump off the screen and you’ll never look at it and think it looks off in either mode. Spider-man looks as good if not better than my LG OLED when played in SDR on the big screen vs HDR on a TV..
> 
> I will try to some like for like comparisons with my TV to see which mode gets closest to native HDR and report back. The gaming version of “as the director intended”
> 
> I’d be interested to hear what others think on this ?


I read that the PS5 displays SDR content in an HDR container, so I wonder why that's why you don't see the output signal change.


----------



## DannyBoy73

SFenton24 said:


> I read that the PS5 displays SDR content in an HDR container, so I wonder why that's why you don't see the output signal change.


There's a lot of messing around with the HDR output that you can 'customise' on the PS5, which affects the output a lot. You have to adjust the screen until you can barely see some blocks on the screen, but I think the Lumagen is messing with the output on the setup? As my blocks think very strange / almost flickering.

I turned my HDR off last night and it looked SO much better... But I'm guessing it's because my HDR output settings are crazy wrong on the PS5.

I might bypass Lumagen, setup the HDR output and then try adding the Lumagen back into the video chain.


----------



## garyolearysteele

SFenton24 said:


> I read that the PS5 displays SDR content in an HDR container, so I wonder why that's why you don't see the output signal change.


If you set HDR in the system settings to Automatic it does, in game options then just change the internal colour space but the signal remains HDR2020. If you set HDR to "off" in the system settings then you get SDR as RGB. Previously with PS4 pro the in game settings changed the output signal.


----------



## OzHDHT

tigerhonaker said:


> Chuck,
> 
> I'll try not to derail this thread off Lumagen simply to say .............
> I did hear from,
> View attachment 3057818
> 
> appelz (Adam)
> And he is super close to where I live in Franklin.


Terry now that you've finally joined us in Lumagen territory and 'seen the light' (pun intended), the last piece of your A/V I'd also along with Chuck, encourage you to consider, as you no doubt are/have been, is AVP's. The Trinnov gear is brilliant, but I'll also throw the McIntosh MX160/170 into the ring (pick your poison for A/V passthrough compatibility). Having stepped off-board briefly back to Marantz before going back to McIntosh, I can attest to the merits of taking it up 'a significant notch' from the Marantz gear, as well as the 88xx series can be dialed in as I did personally with Audyssey PRO.


----------



## PeterLarsson

I will very soon become one of few in Sweden to be an owner of Lumagen Radiance Pro  Ships from UK tomorrow! Feels great to connect to my new projector Sony VW790 - which lacks DTM for real.

Question: When searching in MyHarmony only older Lumagen products seems to be there, not Radiance Pro. you guys with Harmony controls do you use an old Lumagen product to steer or how do you manage? By learning each command?

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I will very soon become one of few in Sweden to be an owner of Lumagen Radiance Pro  Ships from UK tomorrow! Feels great to connect to my new projector Sony VW790 - which lacks DTM for real.
> 
> Question: When searching in MyHarmony only older Lumagen products seems to be there, not Radiance Pro. you guys with Harmony controls do you use an old Lumagen product to steer or how do you manage? By learning each command?


Mine is set up as a Radiance XE I recall.
The remote control hasn't changed in many years...


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Mine is set up as a Radiance XE I recall.
> The remote control hasn't changed in many years...


Great - thanks!


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.

I have some questions about JVC RS3000 with Lumagen Radiance Pro. Should 8k e-shift on JVC RS3000 and Sharpness on Lumagen Radiance Pro be turned on at the same time?
Right now I turn 8k e-shift on with Enhance 3, Smoothing 1 and NR 0 and turn Sharpness on Lumagen Radiance Pro(Level 2, Sens High). I have attached 2 photos to show.
Can anyone recommend 8k e-shift and Sharpness settings?

Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Notes on 110120 release:
> 
> We have had some reports on DTM scene cuts that go back and forth between two views and having different levels on the second time for one or both views. The 110120 release fixes some of these, but more work remains. We need to do further improvements on the "Zone Based" analysis. Some "explosion scenes" can fool the current Zone algorithm. Patrick is working on enhancing the algorithm to cover these more difficult cases.
> 
> We are also starting to get report of DTM issues at 60 Hertz. Really best that 24 Hertz content be sent as 24 Hertz from the source, but we are looking at the issues caused sending 24 Hertz content at 60 Hertz. The frame "pull-down" needed for this is a problem that has to be special cased since every frame is [EDIT] repeated twice, or three times. This is not a factor at 24 Hertz, and Patrick is working on a solution. I think there are other tweaks needed at 60 Hertz as well.
> 
> Please email any scenes you see DTM issues with (source device, movie/program, video rate to the Radiance Pro, and timestamp) to lumagen.com support email so we know what to look at.


Hi Jim,

I tested the new fw (the one Patrick sent me before the public release, I am assuming it is the same as the released one). Congratulations, the brightness fluctuations are much less now. The clipping in Beauty and beast is also fixed. Good job!

However, I still saw some brightness fluctuations. I have sent Patrick my test results with some slides and screen shots as l did last time. I know you are still working on DTM, especially on zone analysis. I think this is definitely the right place to put in effort. Some of those brightness fluctuations were caused by scattered small highlights(lamps, reflections), which triggered the DTM to darken the frames too much. I don't think it is necessary since there is not much information in those very small highlights, it won't be noticeable to clip them. On the other hand, some clipped scenes as I showed in my email, e.g. large area clouds , are very noticeable when they are clipped. I believe a better zone analysis algo will make improvement in these scenarios.

I am looking forward to seeing your next update!

Thanks,
Jue


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I tested the new fw (the one Patrick sent me before the public release, I am assuming it is the same as the released one). Congratulations, the brightness fluctuations are much less now. The clipping in Beauty and beast is also fixed. Good job!
> 
> However, I still saw some brightness fluctuations. I have sent Patrick my test results with some slides and screen shots as l did last time. I know you are still working on DTM, especially on zone analysis. I think this is definitely the right place to put in effort. Some of those brightness fluctuations were caused by scattered small highlights(lamps, reflections), which triggered the DTM to darken the frames too much. I don't think it is necessary since there is not much information in those very small highlights, it won't be noticeable to clip them. On the other hand, some clipped scenes as I showed in my email, e.g. large area clouds , are very noticeable when they are clipped. I believe a better zone analysis algo will make improvement in these scenarios.
> 
> I am looking forward to seeing your next update!
> 
> Thanks,
> Jue


Who calibrated your projector and Lumagen? What settings are you using in the projector and the Lumagen? What scenes are still showing large area cloud clipping?


----------



## Jue Liang

Kris Deering said:


> Who calibrated your projector and Lumagen? What settings are you using in the projector and the Lumagen? What scenes are still showing large area cloud clipping?


I did all calibrations and settings by myself, it was pretty straightforward. Patrick and Jim also checked my settings, they are all right.

One of the scenes I saw clipping is 01:21:38-01:21:48 in Aquaman, as you can see from the picture below. The clipping happens only when you play through from the previous a couple scenes. If you pause and restart DTM at the clipping frame, or jump to the scene directly (this is the first scene of Chapter 9 in Aquaman), you won't see the clipping. So it is the scene history/adaption causing the problem. The same with 3:20-3:22 in Beauty and the Beast that I reported to Patrick last month, which is now fixed in the new f/w.

I had a lot communications with Patrick last month discussing my observations on the scene-cut related fluctuations and clippings. I am very glad that he made noticeable improvements in the new f/w, and am even more glad that he is still working on it seeking more improvements.


----------



## tigerhonaker

OzHDHT said:


> Terry now that you've finally joined us in Lumagen territory and 'seen the light' (pun intended), the last piece of your A/V I'd also along with Chuck, encourage you to consider, as you no doubt are/have been, is AVP's. The Trinnov gear is brilliant, but I'll also throw the McIntosh MX160/170 into the ring (pick your poison for A/V passthrough compatibility). Having stepped off-board briefly back to Marantz before going back to McIntosh, I can attest to the merits of taking it up 'a significant notch' from the Marantz gear, as well as the 88xx series can be dialed in as I did personally with Audyssey PRO.


*OzHDHT*

I read you from way over in the Aussie Land buddy.  

You and your Mate, Paul are Ultra-High-Rollers I'm just a simple Middle-Class fellow in the USA. 

Terry


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

DannyBoy73 said:


> There's a lot of messing around with the HDR output that you can 'customise' on the PS5, which affects the output a lot. You have to adjust the screen until you can barely see some blocks on the screen, but I think the Lumagen is messing with the output on the setup? As my blocks think very strange / almost flickering.
> 
> I turned my HDR off last night and it looked SO much better... But I'm guessing it's because my HDR output settings are crazy wrong on the PS5.
> 
> I might bypass Lumagen, setup the HDR output and then try adding the Lumagen back into the video chain.


I am expecting mine ps5 arrive early January so can't really test mine, attach some screenshots of HDR setup in PS5, it shouldn't be any different from any other player you setup. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> I did all calibrations and settings by myself, it was pretty straightforward. Patrick and Jim also checked my settings, they are all right.
> 
> One of the scenes I saw clipping is 01:21:38-01:21:48 in Aquaman, as you can see from the picture below. The clipping happens only when you play through from the previous a couple scenes. If you pause and restart DTM at the clipping frame, or jump to the scene directly (this is the first scene of Chapter 9 in Aquaman), you won't see the clipping. So it is the scene history/adaption causing the problem. The same with 3:20-3:22 in Beauty and the Beast that I reported to Patrick last month, which is now fixed in the new f/w.
> 
> I had a lot communications with Patrick last month discussing my observations on the scene-cut related fluctuations and clippings. I am very glad that he made noticeable improvements in the new f/w, and am even more glad that he is still working on it seeking more improvements.
> View attachment 3059368


Hmm. Couple things here. One, neither Pat nor Jim are calibrators, so there is no way they could verify that you did that properly. And I've seen many who think they know what they are doing do it VERY wrong. I also just talked to Pat directly about this scene after this post and he said he has no idea what settings you are using for your projector or your Lumagen and he never said your settings were right. So not sure what to think there. I asked for your settings and approach to see if there is something that could be contributing from the calibration/setup as this happens A LOT.

I looked at the scene you are talking about in the pictures above. The scene is a transition from them being in a semi-lit cave to a fade up to a super bright shot coming toward the island (this whole sequence is extremely high APL and I've seen others complain about that in the past). The clouds are clipped for about 2-3 seconds as the fade finishes and then the frame adapt fixes it almost instantly. The reason you don't see it if you chapter skip right to the scene is because the tone map isn't seeing the fade in before it as the scene starts about half way across the water already (after the fade) and the tone map will auto start a new scene from the chapter skip. Pat will obviously look at this, but I think the fact that it is a fade from darker to brighter in frame is going to make it difficult, and again the clip is only a couple seconds at most. I will look at this on a Dolby Vision display to see how it looks there.


----------



## Jue Liang

Kris Deering said:


> Hmm. Couple things here. One, neither Pat nor Jim are calibrators, so there is no way they could verify that you did that properly. And I've seen many who think they know what they are doing do it VERY wrong. I also just talked to Pat directly about this scene after this post and he said he has no idea what settings you are using for your projector or your Lumagen and he never said your settings were right. So not sure what to think there. I asked for your settings and approach to see if there is something that could be contributing from the calibration/setup as this happens A LOT.
> 
> I looked at the scene you are talking about in the pictures above. The scene is a transition from them being in a semi-lit cave to a fade up to a super bright shot coming toward the island (this whole sequence is extremely high APL and I've seen others complain about that in the past). The clouds are clipped for about 2-3 seconds as the fade finishes and then the frame adapt fixes it almost instantly. The reason you don't see it if you chapter skip right to the scene is because the tone map isn't seeing the fade in before it as the scene starts about half way across the water already (after the fade) and the tone map will auto start a new scene from the chapter skip. Pat will obviously look at this, but I think the fact that it is a fade from darker to brighter in frame is going to make it difficult, and again the clip is only a couple seconds at most. I will look at this on a Dolby Vision display to see how it looks there.


I just re-checked my emails and find that I sent them my Lumagen info pages and HDR settings. Jim told me that _"Your Lumagen settings look okay as far as I can see. "_ So you are right, Pat didn't say that, it was Jim.  But I am sending Pat my config's file tonight.

I have tried every possible knob,including the ones in the service mode (high ratio, shape, transition), and also did full factory reset. Now every setting is back to default, except the maxLight (low/high) is set to 196/700 nits. My measured brightness is 140 nits by the way. My RS3000 is calibrated to 2.4 gamma, everything setting at 0 except brightness at -1. So I don't know if there could be anything wrong with my settings. 

Regarding the clipping scene, you bascally just confirmed my findings, it's the scene history (the darker scenes before the bright scene) caused clipping. Pause and restart DTM or skipping to will eliminate the clipping. I don't think the frame adapt fixes it instantly, maybe you and I have a different definiation of "fix" or "instantly", at least the clipping was very noticeable to me. As I said, the same clipping happened to 3:20-3:22 in Beauty and the Beast that I reported last month, and Pat actually was able to fix it in the new f/w, along with other scenes I reported (mostly are brightness fluctuations). So I hope he can also fix all (or most) the scenes I reported this time.


----------



## OzHDHT

tigerhonaker said:


> *OzHDHT*
> 
> I read you from way over in the Aussie Land buddy.
> 
> You and your Mate, Paul are Ultra-High-Rollers I'm just a simple Middle-Class fellow in the USA.
> 
> Terry


Terry you def don't have to be a 'high roller' to step up in AVPs. You could step into an demo or used MX160 for not that much. I bought a demo from a guy in the US when they were a new model, cost me $12K. You can do much better now on one. Definitely worth it considering your considerable speaker investment buddy...


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> Regarding the clipping scene, you bascally just confirmed my findings, it's the scene history (the darker scenes before the bright scene) caused clipping. Pause and restart DTM or skipping to will eliminate the clipping. I don't think the frame adapt fixes it instantly, maybe you and I have a different definiation of "fix" or "instantly", at least the clipping was very noticeable to me. As I said, the same clipping happened to 3:20-3:22 in Beauty and the Beast that I reported last month, and Pat actually was able to fix it in the new f/w, along with other scenes I reported (mostly are brightness fluctuations). So I hope he can also fix all (or most) the scenes I reported this time.


It isn't the darker scene before the bright scene, it is the fade from one to the other instead of a transition. If you do a chapter skip to that scene, you DO NOT get clipping because of the transition. But that isn't the way the scene plays out when you watch it normally. It goes from a semi-lit cave to a FADE UP to a high bright/high APL scene. You see the clipping come in as the fade goes out, then about 2-3 seconds later, it goes away with the frame adapt. So the clipping only lasts about 4 seconds total. Yes it is there, but only for a moment. I'm sure Pat will see what he can do with it, but because it is a fade and not a normal scene change, it will likely be pretty difficult to fix (scenes like this are a lot of the reason that the frame adaptive stuff was added in the first place).


----------



## Jue Liang

Kris Deering said:


> It isn't the darker scene before the bright scene, it is the fade from one to the other instead of a transition. If you do a chapter skip to that scene, you DO NOT get clipping because of the transition. But that isn't the way the scene plays out when you watch it normally. It goes from a semi-lit cave to a FADE UP to a high bright/high APL scene. You see the clipping come in as the fade goes out, then about 2-3 seconds later, it goes away with the frame adapt. So the clipping only lasts about 4 seconds total. Yes it is there, but only for a moment. I'm sure Pat will see what he can do with it, but because it is a fade and not a normal scene change, it will likely be pretty difficult to fix (scenes like this are a lot of the reason that the frame adaptive stuff was added in the first place).


Yes, I agree that the fading in this particular case makes it even more difficult than normal scene adaption. I also reported other scenes though. Let's hope Pat gives us another gift before the Chrismas.


----------



## catinthehat85

Hi all,
Sorry if this has been discussed but this thread has gotten quite long. I have a 2.09:1 screen that I want the Lumagen to automatically make the most use out of. For example, if I watch any 16:9 content or a movie like Jurassic Park at 2.0:1, I want screen to use the full height. When I watch 2.4:1 content I want to use the full width. When I watch Dark Knight I want the 2.4:1 scenes at full width and the IMAX scenes at full height...if that makes sense. I have the radiance pro 4242 if that makes a difference.


----------



## bjorg

catinthehat85 said:


> Hi all,
> Sorry if this has been discussed but this thread has gotten quite long. I have a 2.09:1 screen that I want the Lumagen to automatically make the most use out of. For example, if I watch any 16:9 content or a movie like Jurassic Park at 2.0:1, I want screen to use the full height. When I watch 2.4:1 content I want to use the full width. When I watch Dark Knight I want the 2.4:1 scenes at full width and the IMAX scenes at full height...if that makes sense. I have the radiance pro 4242 if that makes a difference.


Curious about answers on this as well. I have a similar situation with a 1.96 screen. Movies shot in _Super Panavision 70 (2.20:1)_ or greater should use no scaling, between 2.20:1 and 16:9 use 4.17% scaling, and then below 16:9 use 8.33% scaling. Not sure that's possible.


----------



## hamster71

Personally, I have never had a problem with light-dark or dark-light scene transitions for quite some time. At home me it's perfect, well done guys .

I am currently with firmware 092820, tonight I will switch to firmware 110120 to be up to date.

On the other hand it would be interesting to have an update of the user manual which is obsolete on several points ...


----------



## Kris Deering

hamster71 said:


> Personally, I have never had a problem with light-dark or dark-light scene transitions for quite some time. At home me it's perfect, well done guys .
> 
> I am currently with firmware 092820, tonight I will switch to firmware 110120 to be up to date.
> 
> On the other hand it would be interesting to have an update of the user manual which is obsolete on several points ...


Problems like the clipping he is talking about are EXTREMELY rare, so the odds of ever seeing it are pretty rare. I've talked about this before but the DTM is a DYNAMIC solution, so it cannot be perfect in all cases (or else it wouldn't be dynamic). But users should report if they see artifacts as there is always a chance Lumagen can improve on the way it handles it. There may be cases where they can't eliminate the problem completely, but they typically do a great job.


----------



## docrog

I'm currently using firmware v092820 (posted 100920) and am not experiencing any issues. I note that the latest firmware update (v110120) is indicated to contain "couple of DTM improvements" without any further language as to what has been accomplished. Does anyone know how what these changes are or whether the "improvements" are likely to affect image quality on a 127" 16:9 screen? I have to remove my RP from my HT in order to perform updates, so I'd really prefer to stay with 092820 unless there's adequate reason to update. Thanks!


----------



## tigerhonaker

tigerhonaker said:


> *OzHDHT*
> 
> I read you from way over in the Aussie Land buddy.
> 
> You and your Mate, Paul are Ultra-High-Rollers I'm just a simple Middle-Class fellow in the USA.
> 
> Terry





OzHDHT said:


> Terry you def don't have to be a 'high roller' to step up in AVPs. You could step into an demo or used MX160 for not that much. I bought a demo from a guy in the US when they were a new model, cost me $12K. You can do much better now on one. Definitely worth it considering your considerable speaker investment buddy...


OzHDHT,

As it stands currently I'm overly "Thrilled" with the audio.
Chad B. was just here checking and making a few subtle changes and both of us think the audio is to kill for.

However, maybe in the future who knows 

Happy Thanksgiving buddy,
Terry


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I'm currently using firmware v092820 (posted 100920) and am not experiencing any issues. I note that the latest firmware update (v110120) is indicated to contain "couple of DTM improvements" without any further language as to what has been accomplished. Does anyone know how what these changes are or whether the "improvements" are likely to affect image quality on a 127" 16:9 screen? I have to remove my RP from my HT in order to perform updates, so I'd really prefer to stay with 092820 unless there's adequate reason to update. Thanks!


Updates are always recommended as Lumagen is continuously improving features and fixing reported bugs. Whether you want to keep up with them is your choice obviously, but more often than not there are tangible benefits. Most updates list what was fixed or added.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Updates are always recommended as Lumagen is continuously improving features and fixing reported bugs. Whether you want to keep up with them is your choice obviously, but more often than not there are tangible benefits. Most updates list what was fixed or added.


Although I appreciate your reply, Kris, all that is mentioned that would be relevant to me is "couple of DTM improvements" without any further explanation or details. Considering that recent firmware updates have actually caused issues (bad pixels, green screens, etc.) for some users which were later rectified with small revisions, I'm a bit reluctant to go through what is, for me, a bit of an arduous process without trying to understand what the new DTM iteration is when compared with the DTM provided in 092320.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Although I appreciate your reply, Kris, all that is mentioned that would be relevant to me is "couple of DTM improvements" without any further explanation or details. Considering that recent firmware updates have actually caused issues (bad pixels, green screens, etc.) for some users which were later rectified with small revisions, I'm a bit reluctant to go through what is, for me, a bit of an arduous process without trying to understand what the new DTM iteration is when compared with the DTM provided in 092320.


Then just wait for others to report on if there are issues before doing a new update. Issues with updates are rare and are usually fixed almost immediately or you can always revert right back to the previous version.

Or just ignore updates if you're happy where you are at. Again, if a client or anyone else asks me if they should keep up with updates I always say YES. The amount of times it has caused issues for them is so small it barely registers. Since you used Craig for your work I would just reach out to him on occasion and ask him. He'd have a lot better idea of what is going on in the updates than most on these forums.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

docrog said:


> Although I appreciate your reply, Kris, all that is mentioned that would be relevant to me is "couple of DTM improvements" without any further explanation or details. Considering that recent firmware updates have actually caused issues (bad pixels, green screens, etc.) for some users which were later rectified with small revisions, I'm a bit reluctant to go through what is, for me, a bit of an arduous process without trying to understand what the new DTM iteration is when compared with the DTM provided in 092320.


I did have the green and purple screen issue but the latest update 110120 has fixed this. I would update .....


----------



## jrp

Comments on recent DTM posts.

Jue: Thanks for sending all the scene time stamps for us to look at. We of course want to have the DTM have an optimal response even for very tough cases. You are certainly a lot more sensitive to these than most people, but that is a good thing as it means you can help us find the tough scenes. Patrick is working on improving the scenes you have highlighted, and we really appreciate the feedback.

I need to clarify that my saying I did not see anything obviously wrong in your config does not mean I agree it is correct. Not easy to do that, and I would really need to be on sight to see how your settings are affecting your specific theater. Note, I am not saying there is anything wrong with your settings. In my brief look, nothing jumped out as wrong.

As Kris points out, settings can significantly alter the look of the movies depending on the content, projector, screen size, and screen gain. I know both Kris and I have helped people optimize their settings remotely, but this is hard to do without all possible information.

I know you have tried a lot of settings, but there may be some that could still affect the DTM response. As I believe I mentioned, and for everyone's benefit, increasing the CMS Max Light, reducing the Low-Ratio, and increasing the Dyn Pad to, say, 5, can mitigate the "back and forth" type of level changes. Even increasing the Desat setting can help depending on specific scene.

Patrick is looking into how to improve gradual fades between scenes and within scenes. These are not triggering the scene cut detection since they are gradual. The intra-scene adaptation is kept slow to avoid obviously changing the levels, but the "fades" need a more aggressive adaptation. Pat is looking at improving the Zone based analysis to try to better detect these inter-scene and intra-scene fades. This in turn would allow for the necessary aggressiveness in the adaptation to improve these scenes.

Everyone: Please, if you see issues, keep sending us the movie/program title, time-stamp, source device, and a brief comment on the issue, and how severe it is in your opinion. We do want to keep improving DTM, but note that we also have other features (pipeline precision, etc.) we would like to work on. We hope to get the significant issues addressed and may put the minor issues on the "for later" list.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Comments on recent DTM posts.
> 
> Jue: Thanks for sending all the scene time stamps for us to look at. We of course want to have the DTM have an optimal response even for very tough cases. You are certainly a lot more sensitive to these than most people, but that is a good thing as it means you can help us find the tough scenes. Patrick is working on improving the scenes you have highlighted, and we really appreciate the feedback.
> 
> I need to clarify that my saying I did not see anything obviously wrong in your config does not mean I agree it is correct. Not easy to do that, and I would really need to be on sight to see how your settings are affecting your specific theater. Note, I am not saying there is anything wrong with your settings. In my brief look, nothing jumped out as wrong.
> 
> As Kris points out, settings can significantly alter the look of the movies depending on the content, projector, screen size, and screen gain. I know both Kris and I have helped people optimize their settings remotely, but this is hard to do without all possible information.
> 
> I know you have tried a lot of settings, but there may be some that could still affect the DTM response. As I believe I mentioned, and for everyone's benefit, increasing the CMS Max Light, reducing the Low-Ratio, and increasing the Dyn Pad to, say, 5, can mitigate the "back and forth" type of level changes. Even increasing the Desat setting can help depending on specific scene.
> 
> Patrick is looking into how to improve gradual fades between scenes and within scenes. These are not triggering the scene cut detection since they are gradual. The intra-scene adaptation is kept slow to avoid obviously changing the levels, but the "fades" need a more aggressive adaptation. Pat is looking at improving the Zone based analysis to try to better detect these inter-scene and intra-scene fades. This in turn would allow for the necessary aggressiveness in the adaptation to improve these scenes.
> 
> Everyone: Please, if you see issues, keep sending us the movie/program title, time-stamp, source device, and a brief comment on the issue, and how severe it is in your opinion. We do want to keep improving DTM, but note that we also have other features (pipeline precision, etc.) we would like to work on. We hope to get the significant issues addressed and may put the minor issues on the "for later" list.


Jim, could possibly elaborate on the "couple of DTM improvements" that were done in the most recent firmware update? Also, is there any chance that you will upgrade Darbee to function in 4K when the free standing 4K Darbee PXLVision unit becomes available early next year? Thanks!


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Comments on recent DTM posts.
> 
> Jue: Thanks for sending all the scene time stamps for us to look at. We of course want to have the DTM have an optimal response even for very tough cases. You are certainly a lot more sensitive to these than most people, but that is a good thing as it means you can help us find the tough scenes. Patrick is working on improving the scenes you have highlighted, and we really appreciate the feedback.
> 
> I need to clarify that my saying I did not see anything obviously wrong in your config does not mean I agree it is correct. Not easy to do that, and I would really need to be on sight to see how your settings are affecting your specific theater. Note, I am not saying there is anything wrong with your settings. In my brief look, nothing jumped out as wrong.
> 
> As Kris points out, settings can significantly alter the look of the movies depending on the content, projector, screen size, and screen gain. I know both Kris and I have helped people optimize their settings remotely, but this is hard to do without all possible information.
> 
> I know you have tried a lot of settings, but there may be some that could still affect the DTM response. As I believe I mentioned, and for everyone's benefit, increasing the CMS Max Light, reducing the Low-Ratio, and increasing the Dyn Pad to, say, 5, can mitigate the "back and forth" type of level changes. Even increasing the Desat setting can help depending on specific scene.
> 
> Patrick is looking into how to improve gradual fades between scenes and within scenes. These are not triggering the scene cut detection since they are gradual. The intra-scene adaptation is kept slow to avoid obviously changing the levels, but the "fades" need a more aggressive adaptation. Pat is looking at improving the Zone based analysis to try to better detect these inter-scene and intra-scene fades. This in turn would allow for the necessary aggressiveness in the adaptation to improve these scenes.
> 
> Everyone: Please, if you see issues, keep sending us the movie/program title, time-stamp, source device, and a brief comment on the issue, and how severe it is in your opinion. We do want to keep improving DTM, but note that we also have other features (pipeline precision, etc.) we would like to work on. We hope to get the significant issues addressed and may put the minor issues on the "for later" list.


Very well said, Jim! I certainly like the way you and Patrick responding to feedbacks and your willingness to address issues. I am very glad that I could provide any constructive comments. At the end of the day, we all wish Lumagen to keep getting better!

Regarding the settings, as you see, my current maxlight settings are already pretty high (700/196) to reduce artifacts. And I also posted here before that I found setting Dyn Pad to 5 or higher can minimize those artifacts, but at the cost of overall dynamic range, so I set it to 2 now. The new firmware is definitely a significant improvement that with my current settings I see much less artifacts now. Good job!


----------



## MOberhardt

Regards firmware update, I read the instruction doc (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf) but last time I did it, it kept having trouble. I eventually got it to work, but I'm notsure what the exact sequence it. Was it that you have to have it hard power off and try to connect as soon as you turn the power on, before it gets to standby?

Does someone have clear instructions on how to do it cleanly each time?

Thanks


----------



## jrp

catinthehat85 said:


> Hi all,
> Sorry if this has been discussed but this thread has gotten quite long. I have a 2.09:1 screen that I want the Lumagen to automatically make the most use out of. For example, if I watch any 16:9 content or a movie like Jurassic Park at 2.0:1, I want screen to use the full height. When I watch 2.4:1 content I want to use the full width. When I watch Dark Knight I want the 2.4:1 scenes at full width and the IMAX scenes at full height...if that makes sense. I have the radiance pro 4242 if that makes a difference.


There are several ways to work to fill the height and/or width for difference source aspect ratios. I did a setup for a customer who wanted all content to fill his 16:9 screen, I used NLS for 4:3, "output aspect per input aspect" for some sources, and for some source aspects I used a combination of side-cropping and vertical stretching to accomplish this.

This approach is not for everyone as this does mean changing the content aspect ratio.

=====

Simplest is to lie to the Radiance Pro (in this case it's okay to lie) by using the "Styles->Style0->Aspect Ratio menu to select "Output aspect per input aspect." I will use your screen aspect of 2.09 as an example. You could for example say that for the sources aspects that:

Input Aspect Output Aspect:
4:3 1.78 You can then apply NLS if you would like to have the 4:3 fill the screen width
16:9 1.78 A 17% horizontal stretch
1.85 1.85 A 13% horizontal stretch
2.00 2.00 A 4% horizontal stretch
2.20 2.20 A 5% vertical stretch
2.35 2.35 A 12% vertical stretch
2.40 2.40 A 15% vertical stretch

Simple to do, but of course this does affect object aspect ratios in the source.

You can choose to fill the screen with all source aspect ratio's or only the close ones. Alternately, you can "split the difference" as discussed below.

I have experimented with programming the wrong aspect using our friends to see if they noticed anything wrong. If I kept the stretch or shrink to 10% or so, no one ever noticed the change. That's not to say a critical observer would not notice something. The 18% default stretch for the middle section using NLS for 16:9 to 2.35 is noticeable, but even then many do not find it objectionable. Of course, you may, and you get to choose what if any of this you want to do.

===

I am more critical that 2.35 and 2.40 movies look correct and so want less vertical stretching. You can split the difference and program the output aspect as 2.25 for 2.40 source for the above example and cut the vertical stretch in half while cutting the black bars at the top and bottom in half.

===

More work but you can use some cropping on the sides of 2.35 and 2.40 content to throw out part of the image on the sides. This reduces the amount of vertical stretch. Since most movies (I believe) are shot "protected for 16:9" throwing out some of the content on the side is not generally objectionable. The exception is that text on the screen, often at the beginning of the movie, can be on the far left (more often than the far right). So you can crop less so the left and more on the right if you like.

As an example, if you crop 4% off the right and 4% off the left for 2.40 content on the 2.09 screen, then the vertical stretch is reduced to 6% for 2.40 content.

This takes some work since each input resolution has input cropping for each source aspect ratio. By default all inputs and input memories share one input memory per resolution (the "-0" memory). This does reduce the work some. In the MENU  Input  In Configs  [Resolution]  [#]  Size menu you need to set the cropping (called sizing) for the left and right, for 2.35 and 2.40 input aspect, for each input resolution being used. Press OK after the change and select apply the size change to "this aspect only."

Note that the above works with Auto-aspect.

Make sure to Save your changes.

Hope I did not just open a can of worms.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Jim, could possibly elaborate on the "couple of DTM improvements" that were done in the most recent firmware update? Also, is there any chance that you will upgrade Darbee to function in 4K when the free standing 4K Darbee PXLVision unit becomes available early next year? Thanks!


The recent DTM improvements affect infrequent scenes that cut back and forth, and some scenes that have scattered bright objects. We already addressed a lot of these type of scenes, but Jue and others found more that we needed to address.

For the cut-back-and-forth, often there can be a pan into a scene showing one person talking to another and then a cut to the other person, and then back. When it cuts back it is "new" scene for DTM and the selected transfer function for the first "pan-in" to the scene was sometimes different than when the view cuts-back. The level when cutting back should be the same but since it was a cut-back but the DTM did not know this. Patrick added more scene history to look for this, and similar, cases.

A while back we added zone-based-analysis to catch small bright objects and not let them affect the average scene level. We needed to enhance the zone analysis to account for more bright objects.

We are not done with this DTM improvement, and may never be since it is a dynamic system and more cases we need to look at may come up.

=============

We will not be adding 4k Darbee.

Personally, I do not use it even for 1080 content now that we have the Radiance Pro sharpening. I prefer the Radiance Pro sharpening for image enhancement since I see cases where Darbee affects faces when it should not. This large area issue is a known issue with Darbee. Darbee does make natural images look a bit sharper, so it is a personal choice if you want to use it for 1080 content or not. You may well find a low setting for Darbee used with the Radiance Pro sharpening is a good combination.


----------



## docrog

Jim, many thanks for your detailed explanation of the most recent DTM improvements and future goals; this certainly has provided better understanding for me when compared with the phrase "couple of DTM improvements". Also, thank you for confirming that you don't plan on adding 4K Darbee processing. I'm pretty certain that RP owners who currently make use of Darbee processing will likely be following updates for the PXLVision/Darbee project. FWIW, I've never thought of Darbee processing as a sharpening (edge enhancement) feature but, rather, a depth/stereoscopic feature which provides quite differently perceived video cues from proprietary manipulation of the image. As you've indicated, it's a personal choice for "non-purists" as is the case in deciding whether or not to make use of any type of image data manipulation.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> There are several ways to work to fill the height and/or width for difference source aspect ratios. I did a setup for a customer who wanted all content to fill his 16:9 screen, I used NLS for 4:3, "output aspect per input aspect" for some sources, and for some source aspects I used a combination of side-cropping and vertical stretching to accomplish this.
> 
> This approach is not for everyone as this does mean changing the content aspect ratio.
> 
> =====
> 
> Simplest is to lie to the Radiance Pro (in this case it's okay to lie) by using the "Styles->Style0->Aspect Ratio menu to select "Output aspect per input aspect." I will use your screen aspect of 2.09 as an example. You could for example say that for the sources aspects that:
> 
> Input Aspect Output Aspect:
> 4:3 1.78 You can then apply NLS if you would like to have the 4:3 fill the screen width
> 16:9 1.78 A 17% horizontal stretch
> 1.85 1.85  A 13% horizontal stretch
> 2.00 2.00 A 4% horizontal stretch
> 2.20 2.20 A 5% vertical stretch
> 2.35 2.35 A 12% vertical stretch
> 2.40 2.40 A 15% vertical stretch
> 
> Simple to do, but of course this does affect object aspect ratios in the source.
> 
> You can choose to fill the screen with all source aspect ratio's or only the close ones. Alternately, you can "split the difference" as discussed below.
> 
> I have experimented with programming the wrong aspect using our friends to see if they noticed anything wrong. If I kept the stretch or shrink to 10% or so, no one ever noticed the change. That's not to say a critical observer would not notice something. The 18% default stretch for the middle section using NLS for 16:9 to 2.35 is noticeable, but even then many do not find it objectionable. Of course, you may, and you get to choose what if any of this you want to do.
> 
> ===
> 
> I am more critical that 2.35 and 2.40 movies look correct and so want less vertical stretching. You can split the difference and program the output aspect as 2.25 for 2.40 source for the above example and cut the vertical stretch in half while cutting the black bars at the top and bottom in half.
> 
> ===
> 
> More work but you can use some cropping on the sides of 2.35 and 2.40 content to throw out part of the image on the sides. This reduces the amount of vertical stretch. Since most movies (I believe) are shot "protected for 16:9" throwing out some of the content on the side is not generally objectionable. The exception is that text on the screen, often at the beginning of the movie, can be on the far left (more often than the far right). So you can crop less so the left and more on the right if you like.
> 
> As an example, if you crop 4% off the right and 4% off the left for 2.40 content on the 2.09 screen, then the vertical stretch is reduced to 6% for 2.40 content.
> 
> This takes some work since each input resolution has input cropping for each source aspect ratio. By default all inputs and input memories share one input memory per resolution (the "-0" memory). This does reduce the work some. In the MENU  Input  In Configs  [Resolution]  [#]  Size menu you need to set the cropping (called sizing) for the left and right, for 2.35 and 2.40 input aspect, for each input resolution being used. Press OK after the change and select apply the size change to "this aspect only."
> 
> Note that the above works with Auto-aspect.
> 
> Make sure to Save your changes.
> 
> Hope I did not just open a can of worms.


Oho, looks like Thanksgiving is canceled. Daddy gotta play with his toy! 

All kidding aside, this is great information that I'm going to try to put to good use. Is it possible to reset a memory to factory defaults without affecting anything else? I've been using MemD for some experiments and would like to see if I can teach it to automatically size the image based on the AR as you explained, but worry my old experiment may interfere.


----------



## 187crew003

new to me radiance pro 4442 coming in late this week or next week. Very excited to join the ranks to go along with my JVC rs600 on my 120" 2.40 screen 

mainly looking forward to the DTM and NLS! but now looking into chromapure to use the lumagen to calibrate my PJ

excting times!


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> new to me radiance pro 4442 coming in late this week or next week. Very excited to join the ranks to go along with my JVC rs600 on my 120" 2.40 screen
> 
> mainly looking forward to the DTM and NLS! but now looking into chromapure to use the lumagen to calibrate my PJ
> 
> excting times!


Chromapure isn't a great solution for calibrating these, you're better off with Colourspace / Lightspace if you can stomach the learning curve. I believe CP3 can only calibrate the SDR side, and even there the results are a bit questionable because of the way it builds the 3DLUT incrementally instead of as a caluclation from a display profile.


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> Chromapure isn't a great solution for calibrating these, you're better off with Colourspace / Lightspace if you can stomach the learning curve. I believe CP3 can only calibrate the SDR side, and even there the results are a bit questionable because of the way it builds the 3DLUT incrementally instead of as a caluclation from a display profile.


great info thank! the calibration is the last thing im worried about at this time. lol That will be secondary


----------



## OzHDHT

tigerhonaker said:


> OzHDHT,
> 
> As it stands currently I'm overly "Thrilled" with the audio.
> Chad B. was just here checking and making a few subtle changes and both of us think the audio is to kill for.
> 
> However, maybe in the future who knows
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving buddy,
> Terry



Terry I don't want to sound like the audio side is another 'get Terry onto a Lumagen' scenario, but if you haven't compared anything to Marantz, you really owe it to yourself to do so. Anyway glad everything has worked out so well with your Lumagen


----------



## PeterLarsson

I will get my delivery at 11 - I will be one of very few in Sweden that will be a Lumagen Radiance Pro owner . I am also rebuilding from Procella P6 to Procella P610 so a lot wok ongoing in my home theater!


----------



## jqmn

@jrp @Kris Deering
I was playing with the new sharpness feature and the Imatest overscan mp4 pattern from the AVSHD HD 709 set. When cranking sharpness over 6 (just testing mind you) the ten rows of white dots on the black background on both sides of the pattern disappeared. Wasn't expecting that.

[Q] Sony projectors (I have an 885ES) sometimes tend to have these weird swaths of light colors when displaying a single pixel pattern (which doesn't show, or at least I can't see, in normal content or a full white field). When using the Lumagen to upscale a 1080/24p single pixel checkerboard mp4 pattern to 4K24p output the various color swaths went wild, running notch patterning was introduced and other artifacts appeared. When reverting to straight 1080/24p in-and-out all went back to "normal". Has anyone else seen this on patterns? Having watched a number of discs with upscaling on this effect doesn't seem to come through; just wondering.


----------



## Kris Deering

jqmn said:


> @jrp @Kris Deering
> I was playing with the new sharpness feature and the Imatest overscan mp4 pattern from the AVSHD HD 709 set. When cranking sharpness over 6 (just testing mind you) the ten rows of white dots on the black background on both sides of the pattern disappeared. Wasn't expecting that.
> 
> [Q] Sony projectors (I have an 885ES) sometimes tend to have these weird swaths of light colors when displaying a single pixel pattern (which doesn't show, or at least I can't see, in normal content or a full white field). When using the Lumagen to upscale a 1080/24p single pixel checkerboard mp4 pattern to 4K24p output the various color swaths went wild, running notch patterning was introduced and other artifacts appeared. When reverting to straight 1080/24p in-and-out all went back to "normal". Has anyone else seen this on patterns? Having watched a number of discs with upscaling on this effect doesn't seem to come through; just wondering.


Single pixel nyquist patterns will ALWAY have bizarre artifacts when you scale them. That is why the Sony projectors have issues with that pattern unless you defeat some settings in their service menu. So that is expected.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

@Kris Deering @jrp 

Guys, I currently have RS2000 and just added a DCR lens to my setup (my screen is 2.40). I am looking into Lumagen as my next upgrade down the line. I am wondering what kind of benefits it will provide in my system. Apologies for the n00b questions in advance.

1. How good is the stretch when applied to 1.78/1.85 stretched to 2.40? Is it passable good or something you can use on most of the content for regular viewing?
2. Can you setup Lumagen to automatically stretch all content to 2.40 irrespective of the aspect ratio of content?
3. Can you set Lumagen to automatically stretch some content for eg 2.0 and higher but not 1.78 and 1.85?
4. Is there a way to setup presets for instant stretch off/on unlike slow lens memory adjustments that projectors provide?
5. Is Lumagen's DTM (once calibrated) better than what comes with JVC projectors or is at a similar level?
6. Is this something that could be setup offsite by calibrator, shipped to me and than added/integrated into the system or does it needs to be setup/calibrated by a dealer onsite?
7. Once setup, is it something that is more or less plug and play or does it needs regular tweaking/adjustments?

Thanks!


----------



## tibia

Gentlemen, I would like to offer an opposing point of view to bobof's post #9595 where he does not recommend Chromapure as a good calibration solution. From other posts on this forum, I know Jim Peterson and Kris Deering have similar opinions about Chromapure. Having been an engineer with InFocus for nearly twenty years and having calibrated and critiqued hundreds of various projectors, I do not share that opinion. I know what a well calibrated, good looking projected image looks like. 

Like 187crew003 in his post #9594, I also have a JVC RS600 fed by a Radiance Pro 4242 with current version software. I also use a DaLite 120" wide matte white screen. I setup the RS600 I exclusively use Chromapure AutoCalibration setup for P3 gamut and 2.4 gamma employing the SDR calibration method as personally recommended to me by Jim Peterson.

For 4K UHD discs I set the RS600 to Cinema mode (color filter on) and high lamp power, setting white and black levels referenced to 6500K using RGB gain and bias controls at 100% and 20% intensity and calibrating to the projector lens, not the screen. From that point on I let ChromaPure AutoCalibration and Radiance Pro do their things. Several hours later, and after reactivating the Pro's DTM, gamut conversion and sharpness functions, I have a great looking image.

True, ChromaPure's earlier versions had some annoying bugs and was easy to crash. Like Lumagen's Jim and Patrick, Tom Huffman has continually improved CP's performance and reliability. I now have no complaints with ChromaPure Auto Calibration.

Dennis


----------



## bobof

tibia said:


> Gentlemen, I would like to offer an opposing point of view to bobof's post #9595 where he does not recommend Chromapure as a good calibration solution. From other posts on this forum, I know Jim Peterson and Kris Deering have similar opinions about Chromapure. Having been an engineer with InFocus for nearly twenty years and having calibrated and critiqued hundreds of various projectors, I do not share that opinion. I know what a well calibrated, good looking projected image looks like.
> 
> Like 187crew003 in his post #9594, I also have a JVC RS600 fed by a Radiance Pro 4242 with current version software. I also use a DaLite 120" wide matte white screen. I setup the RS600 I exclusively use Chromapure AutoCalibration setup for P3 gamut and 2.4 gamma employing the SDR calibration method as personally recommended to me by Jim Peterson.
> 
> For 4K UHD discs I set the RS600 to Cinema mode (color filter on) and high lamp power, setting white and black levels referenced to 6500K using RGB gain and bias controls at 100% and 20% intensity and calibrating to the projector lens, not the screen. From that point on I let ChromaPure AutoCalibration and Radiance Pro do their things. Several hours later, and after reactivating the Pro's DTM, gamut conversion and sharpness functions, I have a great looking image.
> 
> True, ChromaPure's earlier versions had some annoying bugs and was easy to crash. Like Lumagen's Jim and Patrick, Tom Huffman has continually improved CP's performance and reliability. I now have no complaints with ChromaPure Auto Calibration.


Perhaps I'm being unfair and maybe it has improved since I owned CP3 with the advanced autocal option - I sold it on with a previous Lumagen unit. I see from a guide online that it does look like it supports HDR now perhaps, so I apologise for misinformation there.

Out of interest have you looked at the image with, for example, the Granger style pattern on Spears and Munsill, or grey ramps? I always found it introducing colour banding and / or notable colour shifts in the greyscale. Mostly not (generally) visible with real content (but would show up sometimes). 

Unless it has changed in recent times, one of the annoyances for me with the CP3 approach was that because the LUT isn't the output of a math function on a profile (which is the approach every other 3DLUT software uses now) it was not possible to make changes to the LUT after a measurement session. With profile based setups it is quite possible to change the LUT targeting after the fact, or try alternate LUT parameters (like saturation reduction vs hue rotation for out of gamut colours, artificially limiting peak nits, changing from pure power law to BT1886 gamma, etc). As a for instance of this being useful, when SDRP3 support was added to Lumagen, I was able to make SDRP3 LUT from historic profile without re-profiling.


----------



## MOberhardt

tibia said:


> Gentlemen, I would like to offer an opposing point of view to bobof's post #9595 where he does not recommend Chromapure as a good calibration solution. From other posts on this forum, I know Jim Peterson and Kris Deering have similar opinions about Chromapure. Having been an engineer with InFocus for nearly twenty years and having calibrated and critiqued hundreds of various projectors, I do not share that opinion. I know what a well calibrated, good looking projected image looks like.
> 
> Like 187crew003 in his post #9594, I also have a JVC RS600 fed by a Radiance Pro 4242 with current version software. I also use a DaLite 120" wide matte white screen. I setup the RS600 I exclusively use Chromapure AutoCalibration setup for P3 gamut and 2.4 gamma employing the SDR calibration method as personally recommended to me by Jim Peterson.
> 
> For 4K UHD discs I set the RS600 to Cinema mode (color filter on) and high lamp power, setting white and black levels referenced to 6500K using RGB gain and bias controls at 100% and 20% intensity and calibrating to the projector lens, not the screen. From that point on I let ChromaPure AutoCalibration and Radiance Pro do their things. Several hours later, and after reactivating the Pro's DTM, gamut conversion and sharpness functions, I have a great looking image.
> 
> True, ChromaPure's earlier versions had some annoying bugs and was easy to crash. Like Lumagen's Jim and Patrick, Tom Huffman has continually improved CP's performance and reliability. I now have no complaints with ChromaPure Auto Calibration.
> 
> Dennis


Hmm, so if you get Chromapure with the Auto cal, it is a pretty simple setup with the Lumagen? Does it wipe all the other settings on it?


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> Single pixel nyquist patterns will ALWAY have bizarre artifacts when you scale them. That is why the Sony projectors have issues with that pattern unless you defeat some settings in their service menu. So that is expected.


Thanks. I thought I had the service menu toggles; will have to recheck them to see if UR did something when they replaced my optical block.


----------



## PeterLarsson

I opened up my delivered Lumagen from UK and did some fast tests and my god! I would never have thought it would be THAT amazing good. I am speechless. actually. The combo Sony VW790 and Lumagen and DTM just WOW! And the aspect ratio automation - what neat cool feature. Will test more tomorrow, but so far I am more than happy! Great feeling that I did the right investment!


----------



## bearcat2002

Is there a way you can toggle everything off from the Lumagen and back and forth so you can see the difference with everything it’s doing as a whole?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PeterLarsson

Yes, I can turn the DTM off - but of course since Lumagen send BT2020 in SDR Sony won't use its HDR setting.


----------



## 187crew003

PeterLarsson said:


> I opened up my delivered Lumagen from UK and did some fast tests and my god! I would never have thought it would be THAT amazing good. I am speechless. actually. The combo Sony VW790 and Lumagen and DTM just WOW! And the aspect ratio automation - what neat cool feature. Will test more tomorrow, but so far I am more than happy! Great feeling that I did the right investment!


what settings did you use initially to see such an improvement, I take delivery tomorrow


----------



## bobof

bearcat2002 said:


> Is there a way you can toggle everything off from the Lumagen and back and forth so you can see the difference with everything it’s doing as a whole?





PeterLarsson said:


> Yes, I can turn the DTM off - but of course since Lumagen send BT2020 in SDR Sony won't use its HDR setting.


If you can be bothered to set it up, you can set up the A/B/C/D memories to help make such comparisons. It would be possible to make a memory output more or less untouched including colour spaces etc., and then you'd just have to switch modes on the projector (or perhaps not if the projector is capable of switching automatically based on input format - like many JVC units).
Of course, anything that changes things in the HDMI output will likely incur an HDMI resync penalty, so it won't be instant switching.


----------



## Nima

Hello everyone,

I am looking to add a simple streaming device to my HT to stream Disney+ (Mandalorian). I was thinking about the new Chromecast with GoogleTV. I have a 4242+ with 9ghz (in/out). Any downsides to this? Any alternatives to the Chromecast other than a Nvidia Shield?

I am using DTM on a Epson LS10K PJ with a 3D Lut.

TIA


----------



## MaDBeN

Hope all are well,  looking for some advice 

Been a while since I've had to do any work with my Pro which previously had been professionally calibrated for an Epson projector 

I have just purchased a LG OLED65GX6LA (taking delivery within the next couple of weeks) 

At present I have no way of calibrating the OLED professionally or otherwise so looking for a guide or some assistance on how to best optimise the two to work together without any calibration?

If so, is anyone aware of a guide somewhere that I can follow that will show me how best setup the pair?

if not can anyone offer any advice on what settings to use on both to get the best performance with HDR and DTM pre calibration?

Any help and assistance is gratefully received


----------



## MOberhardt

Nima said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am looking to add a simple streaming device to my HT to stream Disney+ (Mandalorian). I was thinking about the new Chromecast with GoogleTV. I have a 4242+ with 9ghz (in/out). Any downsides to this? Any alternatives to the Chromecast other than a Nvidia Shield?
> 
> I am using DTM on a Epson LS10K PJ with a 3D Lut.
> 
> TIA


I would not even consider a device that didn't have native frame rate support. And don't discount the apple tv. Nvidia has support also I believe. Chromecast, get ready for 24p material forced to 60p with disgusting artefacts like the old ntsc 32 pull down


----------



## Gordon Fraser

187crew003 said:


> what settings did you use initially to see such an improvement, I take delivery tomorrow


I preset Peters Radiance using information he gave me about his screen and throw ratio and sources and display so he could have a plug and play start before his own Swedish calibrator comes over to finish things.


----------



## Karl Maga

PeterLarsson said:


> I opened up my delivered Lumagen from UK and did some fast tests and my god! I would never have thought it would be THAT amazing good. I am speechless. actually. The combo Sony VW790 and Lumagen and DTM just WOW! And the aspect ratio automation - what neat cool feature. Will test more tomorrow, but so far I am more than happy! Great feeling that I did the right investment!


Your reaction reminds me of that moment when I received mine and first witnessed what it does to improve the projected image. What a fantastic product! I’m glad you’re thrilled with yours.


----------



## 187crew003

Gordon Fraser said:


> I preset Peters Radiance using information he gave me about his screen and throw ratio and sources and display so he could have a plug and play start before his own Swedish calibrator comes over to finish things.


Pmd

also another quick question

I currently zoom in a 1.85 picture for 2.4 material and have the black bars spill over the top and bottom ( I have a 2.4 CIH screen) and then use lense memory to shrink the image for 1.85 content with black bars on the sides

I want to use the 2.4 NLS for 1.85 content to fillmy screen

which lense memory do I use or do i still have to switch between the lense memory AND use NLS

thanks


----------



## PeterLarsson

Something really odd now when testing my 2nd day with my new Lumagen. Every source and everything a feed is 2.35.
Please the picture I have sticky to off and nls to off too but i cant er out of 2.35. Really strange.

someone that can help me?


----------



## Surge2018

nonstopdoc1 said:


> @Kris Deering @jrp
> 
> Guys, I currently have RS2000 and just added a DCR lens to my setup (my screen is 2.40). I am looking into Lumagen as my next upgrade down the line. I am wondering what kind of benefits it will provide in my system. Apologies for the n00b questions in advance.
> 
> 1. How good is the stretch when applied to 1.78/1.85 stretched to 2.40? Is it passable good or something you can use on most of the content for regular viewing?
> 2. Can you setup Lumagen to automatically stretch all content to 2.40 irrespective of the aspect ratio of content?
> 3. Can you set Lumagen to automatically stretch some content for eg 2.0 and higher but not 1.78 and 1.85?
> 4. Is there a way to setup presets for instant stretch off/on unlike slow lens memory adjustments that projectors provide?
> 5. Is Lumagen's DTM (once calibrated) better than what comes with JVC projectors or is at a similar level?
> 6. Is this something that could be setup offsite by calibrator, shipped to me and than added/integrated into the system or does it needs to be setup/calibrated by a dealer onsite?
> 7. Once setup, is it something that is more or less plug and play or does it needs regular tweaking/adjustments?
> 
> Thanks!


Not sure if this was answered. 
6. No, it needs to be calibrated in your room with your specific projector. That said, there are basic settings you can use to get going before calibration. 
7. It doesn’t need any further adjustments unless you want to make them. 
5. There’s no comparison to any built in DTM.


----------



## Des511

PeterLarsson said:


> Something really odd now when testing my 2nd day with my new Lumagen. Every source and everything a feed is 2.35.
> Please the picture I have sticky to off and nls to off too but i cant er out of 2.35. Really strange.
> 
> someone that can help me?
> 
> View attachment 3061371


I’m not sure but it might be the letterbox zoom setting should be off.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Des511 said:


> I’m not sure but it might be the letterbox zoom setting should be off.


Thanks, but I have not touched that at all.
Im stuck in 2.35:1 whatever I do, except for if I press the 4:3 button - then the picrure shrinks to the normal size of 16:9. When I press 16:9 the OSD says 16:9 but it is filling my screen into 2.35:1. I was sat for hours to try to fix and I nerver saved for real and reboot if I did something that I suspect was wron. 
I have tried with ATV, UHD player and setup box and all are into a forced 2.35:1 mode without possibility to get out of it. Even NLS is off but in my non experienced Lumagen world it seems like it is in a kind of forced NLS mode and cant get out if it..

Please anyone that might have rum into a similar situation, what can I do?


----------



## PeterLarsson

I solved it 😊. When running into issues one is forced to learn the product and I looked into tip16. And saw that I had 1,78 instead of 2.35 as input on single output aspect. I must have touched that one and on top saved the change 😬. Well hopefully I learn by my mistak now it is back to autoswitch and all is good!


----------



## tigerhonaker

PeterLarsson said:


> I solved it 😊. When running into issues one is forced to learn the product and I looked into tip16. And saw that I had 1,78 instead of 2.35 as input on single output aspect. I must have touched that one and on top saved the change 😬. Well hopefully I learn by my mistak now it is back to autoswitch and all is good!


Hi Peter,

I'm glad you finally saw what was causing the issue. ✅

I am no-longer confident to any degree on setting up Modern Components/Gear !!!

Thankfully my Custom Calibrator Chad Billheimer located in Ohio here in the USA did my custom Calibrations in person along with Kris Deering located in Seattle, Washington remotely.
With both those guys working together my Lumagen overall experience is exactly what an End-User wishes for. 

Congrats again,
Terry
USA


----------



## Ironman1718

I have a new 4242+ arriving next week. Any issues incorporating with Control 4?


----------



## 187crew003

Anyone ever experience a drop in handshake after a bass heavy scene ? Watching Harry Potter deathly hallows part 2 near the end when Voldemort screams and cast a spell. And right before it fades to white. It drops out picture and needs to re handshake.

just had it happen again in happy potterand the philosopher stone


----------



## bjorg

Applemike68 said:


> I have a new 4242+ arriving next week. Any issues incorporating with Control 4?


Well... so far, my integrator has not figured out how to give me access to the Radiance Pro controls without switching sources, which is problematic for sources that turn off when you switch away. Also, make sure to tell them to use BOTH Control4 files. They are poorly named, but you'll need the DVD one as well: Lumagen


----------



## 187crew003

If anyone could help that would be great. I will be calling Jim today but would rather not bother him lol

my Panasonic 820 menu shakes left to right through the lumagen. I am using hdmi cables recommended by Kris all6’ or longer (15’ to Pj which is the JvC rs600)

it’s ONLY the menus and if using the onboard streaming apps. It stops once a movie starts playing
I’ll attach a video
Video


----------



## 187crew003

so i have seemed to found the fix. it was a order of powering on. the lumagen needed to be on BEFORE the panny. I also forced the output to stay at 24hz instead of 60hz as the menu and streaming apps on the panny use


----------



## Ironman1718

bjorg said:


> Well... so far, my integrator has not figured out how to give me access to the Radiance Pro controls without switching sources, which is problematic for sources that turn off when you switch away. Also, make sure to tell them to use BOTH Control4 files. They are poorly named, but you'll need the DVD one as well: Lumagen


Thank you, I let my C4 installer know. Thanks again,


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> Well... so far, my integrator has not figured out how to give me access to the Radiance Pro controls without switching sources, which is problematic for sources that turn off when you switch away. Also, make sure to tell them to use BOTH Control4 files. They are poorly named, but you'll need the DVD one as well: Lumagen


You are using a Trinnov correct? Easiest way is just to link the “Lumagen DVD” to an UN-used input, like HDMI 2 on the Trinnov. Then in the Trinnov change HDMI 2 to use the “Physical Input” of whatever the Lumagen Audio is connected to. 

That way it never changes sources on the Lumagen, so the video never changes, and while Control4 thinks it’s switching to HDMI 2 on the Trinnov, it’s actually still linked to the physical HDMI input that the Lumagen is connected too. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bjorg

ccool96 said:


> You are using a Trinnov correct? Easiest way is just to link the “Lumagen DVD” to an used input, like HDMI 2 on the Trinnov. Then in the Trinnov change HDMI 2 to use the “Physical Input” of whatever the Lumagen Audio is connected to.
> 
> That way it never changes sources on the Lumagen, so the video never changes, and while Control4 thinks it’s switching to HDMI 2 on the Trinnov, it’s actually still linked to the physical HDMI input that the Lumagen is connected too.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That's an interesting suggestion. Thanks!


----------



## PeterLarsson

Since my Sony VW790 have no support for different user settings in for example the laser light ouput I would like to ask what would be the downside of sending a HDR flag in the tone mapped content in the REC2020 colorspace. On the Sony that trigger HDR, but it sonly reads in HDR10 and if I put everything off like HDR enhancer and such the projector will not do anythinga dditional to the picture (as I would know off). Since the current flag is SDR2020 that doesnt trigger any different settings at all and now I am manually switching betwteen 25 and 85 on the laser depending on the content.

I know the HDR flag is on, on the JVCs, but not on Sonys. Would I find any issues of doing as I suggest above? Of course I could use preset Ref for SDR and User for HDR - but would be easier to automate this, otherwise it requires an intervention from user like wifey and she will def forget that e.g what a heck is HDR and SDR?


----------



## MDesigns

PeterLarsson said:


> Since my Sony VW790 have no support for different user settings in for example the laser light ouput I would like to ask what would be the downside of sending a HDR flag in the tone mapped content in the REC2020 colorspace. On the Sony that trigger HDR, but it sonly reads in HDR10 and if I put everything off like HDR enhancer and such the projector will not do anythinga dditional to the picture (as I would know off). Since the current flag is SDR2020 that doesnt trigger any different settings at all and now I am manually switching betwteen 25 and 85 on the laser depending on the content.
> 
> I know the HDR flag is on, on the JVCs, but not on Sonys. Would I find any issues of doing as I suggest above? Of course I could use preset Ref for SDR and User for HDR - but would be easier to automate this, otherwise it requires an intervention from user like wifey and she will def forget that e.g what a heck is HDR and SDR?


If I have followed correctly, Sony projectors do not allow to use SDR-gamma(2.4) when it receives a HDR signal. So if you enable the HDR flag, the projector will always jump to HDR gamma and ruin the tone mapped picture.

I think its possible to adjust radiance to send "real" HDR, but I don't think thats recommended because of the double tonemapping happening then.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Ah, then I understand. So basiclly what Lumagen does is to convertr the EOTF curve to normal gamma curve and put the result inte SDR2020 container. Would be interesting to hear more about it


----------



## Kris Deering

PeterLarsson said:


> Since my Sony VW790 have no support for different user settings in for example the laser light ouput I would like to ask what would be the downside of sending a HDR flag in the tone mapped content in the REC2020 colorspace. On the Sony that trigger HDR, but it sonly reads in HDR10 and if I put everything off like HDR enhancer and such the projector will not do anythinga dditional to the picture (as I would know off). Since the current flag is SDR2020 that doesnt trigger any different settings at all and now I am manually switching betwteen 25 and 85 on the laser depending on the content.
> 
> I know the HDR flag is on, on the JVCs, but not on Sonys. Would I find any issues of doing as I suggest above? Of course I could use preset Ref for SDR and User for HDR - but would be easier to automate this, otherwise it requires an intervention from user like wifey and she will def forget that e.g what a heck is HDR and SDR?


That won't work the way you think as the Sony would still tone map. Sent you a PM.


----------



## am2model3

quick question: I am on a Optoma UHD60 4K DLP XPR projector. I have been enjoying the panasonic UB820 outputting SDRbt2020 for 4K movie discs to my projector; get to enjoy the WCG w/o the HDR since my projector can't do HDR very well. 

I wondered if anyone uses their Lumagen Radiance Pro to take video game console or PC HDR game signals to output SDRbt2020 to their projectors to get games WCG w/o HDR imagery? Does it work well? Is it worth doing? for now i realize 4k/60 444 8bit on my console&PC games is great enough; just wondered if anyone is enjoying SDRbt2020 WCG gaming? Thanks!

ps5 and xbox series x seem to both offer an HDR calibration tool, while that is a step in the right direction for varying HDR capable displays; it would be cool if the consoles would allow SDRbt2020 from the menu for 10bit color and no HDR; but i realize that is a niche request for some. I am impressed they both added HDR calibration for games from the system menu; that is at least something. 

I suppose i'm limited anyway with HDMI 2.0 for now; I need a projector with HDMI2.1.


----------



## Klaus.S

Have not tried this yet. But how will Lumagen react if there is both DV and HDR on a 4K disc. If you send video as a direct source via Oppo e.g. Will it just detect HDR or will the DV interfering?


----------



## bobof

Klaus.S said:


> Have not tried this yet. But how will Lumagen react if there is both DV and HDR on a 4K disc. If you send video as a direct source via Oppo e.g. Will it just detect HDR or will the DV interfering?


The Lumagen EDIDs don't advertise DV capability, so any well mannered player will just output the HDR10 base layer (or HDR10 conversion in the case of an Apple TV playing DV streamed content).


----------



## blake

am2model3 said:


> quick question: I am on a Optoma UHD60 4K DLP XPR projector. I have been enjoying the panasonic UB820 outputting SDRbt2020 for 4K movie discs to my projector; get to enjoy the WCG w/o the HDR since my projector can't do HDR very well.
> 
> I wondered if anyone uses their Lumagen Radiance Pro to take video game console or PC HDR game signals to output SDRbt2020 to their projectors to get games WCG w/o HDR imagery? Does it work well? Is it worth doing? for now i realize 4k/60 444 8bit on my console&PC games is great enough; just wondered if anyone is enjoying SDRbt2020 WCG gaming? Thanks!
> 
> ps5 and xbox series x seem to both offer an HDR calibration tool, while that is a step in the right direction for varying HDR capable displays; it would be cool if the consoles would allow SDRbt2020 from the menu for 10bit color and no HDR; but i realize that is a niche request for some. I am impressed they both added HDR calibration for games from the system menu; that is at least something.
> 
> I suppose i'm limited anyway with HDMI 2.0 for now; I need a projector with HDMI2.1.


I am wondering this too. The Xbox series X has built in HDR calibration as you mention. Should this still be setup if one uses the Lumagen to tone map the xbox , sending out SDR2020 to your projector ? Or should you just use game mode and bypass all Lumagen processing ? That method would have the bonus of improving response time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 187crew003

So a few days with the lumagen so far thrilled with this unit. The detail it brings out in a 4k picture is astounding.
I do wish the Panasonic 820 allowed for direct output of Blu-ray so the lumagen upscale but...

I do hve the occasional picture drop. For example last night near the end of the greatest showman the signal dropped for a split second. causing the audio to come back quite quickly but the handshake time for the picture to come back was about 10 seconds
Any idea why this happens?


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> I am wondering this too. The Xbox series X has built in HDR calibration as you mention. Should this still be setup if one uses the Lumagen to tone map the xbox , sending out SDR2020 to your projector ? Or should you just use game mode and bypass all Lumagen processing ? That method would have the bonus of improving response time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The HDR calibration in gaming is mainly to tailor the image to preference and overcome limitations of HDR displays on the market that allow for no fine tuning of any kind to an HDR signal. There is nothing wrong with fine tuning to your preference and viewing conditions, even if you are using the Lumagen in tandem. Game mode on the Lumagen does not bypass Lumagen processing, it just changes how it is applied.


----------



## dgkula

187crew003 said:


> So a few days with the lumagen so far thrilled with this unit. The detail it brings out in a 4k picture is astounding.
> I do wish the Panasonic 820 allowed for direct output of Blu-ray so the lumagen upscale but...
> 
> I do hve the occasional picture drop. For example last night near the end of the greatest showman the signal dropped for a split second. causing the audio to come back quite quickly but the handshake time for the picture to come back was about 10 seconds
> Any idea why this happens?


I hate to say it but if you are on current firmware it is possibly the HDMI cables. I upgraded all my cables at install-time and 99% of the dropouts were resolved. I did had one or two non-reproducible audio drops (e.g. in Joker UHD) since cable upgrades but have not had an audio drop since an update several months back (I think it was one that updated the HDMI firmware). I have never had a video drop. I run audio out of the Lumagen audio-only output to my AVR and video direct from Lumagen to the projector.

You can set up the Lumagen so that the 820 will send 1080p (assuming that is what you want scaled by the Lumagen). You can set up a memory that sends the 1080p EDID to the 820 at power-on time and as a result the 820 will only send 1080p and the Lumagen will upscale to 4k. I have an activity on my Harmony remote for "Play BluRay" that does this and a second activity to "Play UHD BR" that leaves the EDID at default. I posted a while back on the exact specifics of setting this up.


----------



## Nima

@dgkula could you link to the post describing the 1080p EDID procedure please?


----------



## 187crew003

dgkula said:


> I hate to say it but if you are on current firmware it is possibly the HDMI cables. I upgraded all my cables at install-time and 99% of the dropouts were resolved. I did had one or two non-reproducible audio drops (e.g. in Joker UHD) since cable upgrades but have not had an audio drop since an update several months back (I think it was one that updated the HDMI firmware). I have never had a video drop. I run audio out of the Lumagen audio-only output to my AVR and video direct from Lumagen to the projector.
> 
> You can set up the Lumagen so that the 820 will send 1080p (assuming that is what you want scaled by the Lumagen). You can set up a memory that sends the 1080p EDID to the 820 at power-on time and as a result the 820 will only send 1080p and the Lumagen will upscale to 4k. I have an activity on my Harmony remote for "Play BluRay" that does this and a second activity to "Play UHD BR" that leaves the EDID at default. I posted a while back on the exact specifics of setting this up.


thank you I would def be interested in seeing how this is setup. im interested in the 820 power up comment. so if you go from a 4k movie to a 1080 you have the 820 power down then up again

also the HDMI cables are the exact ones and lengths suggested by Kris. so not sure it is them. Its NOT common, but does happen, and is not reproducible


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Set EDID to 1080P for sources

Select the memory you wish to use for this on remote. Then

MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>VIDEO EDIDI> Video Limit Max....set to 1080P ONce done remember to save. That input and memmory will now tell source to only do up to 1080P.


----------



## 187crew003

Gordon Fraser said:


> Set EDID to 1080P for sources
> 
> Select the memory you wish to use for this on remote. Then
> 
> MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>VIDEO EDIDI> Video Limit Max....set to 1080P ONce done remember to save. That input and memmory will now tell source to only do up to 1080P.


do you need to shut down then turn on the 820 for this to work?


----------



## Nima

Gordon Fraser said:


> Set EDID to 1080P for sources
> 
> Select the memory you wish to use for this on remote. Then
> 
> MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>VIDEO EDIDI> Video Limit Max....set to 1080P ONce done remember to save. That input and memmory will now tell source to only do up to 1080P.


Thank you Gordon.

Is there a quick way to copy Mem A to Mem B for this 1080p source EDID memory?


----------



## PeterLarsson

187crew003 said:


> So a few days with the lumagen so far thrilled with this unit. The detail it brings out in a 4k picture is astounding.
> I do wish the Panasonic 820 allowed for direct output of Blu-ray so the lumagen upscale but...
> 
> I do hve the occasional picture drop. For example last night near the end of the greatest showman the signal dropped for a split second. causing the audio to come back quite quickly but the handshake time for the picture to come back was about 10 seconds
> Any idea why this happens?



It does! I have two memories for my UB-820, one that I use for UHD and one for blu-rays and forcing 1080P to the player in Lumagen, by setting restriction in EDID. No very hard to do! I do the same with Apple TV, memory A is for HDR content and Memory B for HD. I don't even need to power down anything, just did a sequence on my Harmony of changing to MEMB and change preset on my VW790 to lower the laser output. Works as a charm!

And btw, the DTM on UHDs is pure magic! Pure magic and leave the JVCs far behind (previously owned a NX5). Same for Blu-rays, with the sharpness on 2 it is almost like 4K, unbelivieble! And alos the sharpness on UHDs, also pure magic! I am overwhelmed. But one big issue/worry: HDR coming from Apple TV. Since the majority is Dolby Vision converted by the Apple TV to HDR10 I perceived the picture in some sense dull and extremely dim. I have for example some really challenging scenes in IT part 2 that is almost unwatchable. Also Equalizer 1 have som dark scenes where you almost can't see the details and the blacks is crushed totally.

What are you guys experience on HDR10 form Apple TV like iTunes movies and Netflix for example? Are you getting a similar result as in with UHDs? Concerned about it since my major drive to buy a Lumagen was for its world class DTM - then I have discovered all the other very nice features like sharpness and auto aspect change, that is very cool and already get used to it!

The picture is also so clean and without any kind of artifacts, what is really happening within the box one might wonder? What is happening with the signal since it get so good, but never passing the border of being artificial or too digital.


----------



## ht guy

PeterLarsson said:


> It does! I have two memories for my UB-820, one that I use for UHD and one for blu-rays and forcing 1080P to the player in Lumagen, by setting restriction in EDID. No very hard to do! I do the same with Apple TV, memory A is for HDR content and Memory B for HD. I don't even need to power down anything, just did a sequence on my Harmony of changing to MEMB and change preset on my VW790 to lower the laser output. Works as a charm!
> 
> And btw, the DTM on UHDs is pure magic! Pure magic and leave the JVCs far behind (previously owned a NX5). Same for Blu-rays, with the sharpness on 2 it is almost like 4K, unbelivieble! And alos the sharpness on UHDs, also pure magic! I am overwhelmed. But one big issue/worry: HDR coming from Apple TV. Since the majority is Dolby Vision converted by the Apple TV to HDR10 I perceived the picture in some sense dull and extremely dim. I have for example some really challenging scenes in IT part 2 that is almost unwatchable. Also Equalizer 1 have som dark scenes where you almost can't see the details and the blacks is crushed totally.
> 
> What are you guys experience on HDR10 form Apple TV like iTunes movies and Netflix for example? Are you getting a similar result as in with UHDs? Concerned about it since my major drive to buy a Lumagen was for its world class DTM - then I have discovered all the other very nice features like sharpness and auto aspect change, that is very cool and already get used to it!
> 
> The picture is also so clean and without any kind of artifacts, what is really happening within the box one might wonder? What is happening with the signal since it get so good, but never passing the border of being artificial or too digital.


Two possible suggestions:
1) consider a pro calibration and/or
2) try some physical media. I have two input devices - AppleTV and Oppo 205. Some say they don't hear/see a difference. At least on the titles I have tried, it was no contest. Given a choice I will always pick physical media (or a lossless server.)

BTW, I got my Lumagen from a guy in Sweeden, via a guy in the UK.


----------



## 187crew003

If anyone in this thread is doing their own calibrations with the lumagen and meter, could you pm me? i want to pick your brain

thanks!


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## bobof

187crew003 said:


> If anyone in this thread is doing their own calibrations with the lumagen and meter, could you pm me? i want to pick your brain


Maybe just post your thought & queries here, there's plenty of us, and it's likely any response will be useful to others.


----------



## desertdome

MaDBeN said:


> Hope all are well, looking for some advice
> 
> Been a while since I've had to do any work with my Pro which previously had been professionally calibrated for an Epson projector
> 
> I have just purchased a LG OLED65GX6LA (taking delivery within the next couple of weeks)
> 
> At present I have no way of calibrating the OLED professionally or otherwise so looking for a guide or some assistance on how to best optimise the two to work together without any calibration?
> 
> If so, is anyone aware of a guide somewhere that I can follow that will show me how best setup the pair?
> 
> if not can anyone offer any advice on what settings to use on both to get the best performance with HDR and DTM pre calibration?
> 
> Any help and assistance is gratefully received


With an LG OLED, you are best not doing any dynamic tone mapping with the Lumagen. LG's tone mapping is based on the maximum light output that the TV can output and works very well. Also, if you do get it calibrated, note that the LG GX has internal LUT capabilities of a 10-bit 1D LUT and 33-point cube 3D LUT. You can use either that or the Lumagen for calibration, although using the Lumagen is much easier. You can use the Lumagen for scaling and sharpening with your GX.


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> Maybe just post your thought & queries here, there's plenty of us, and it's likely any response will be useful to others.


thanks! I didnt want to clutter this thread

Im looking for as simple as possible (obviously i am ok with a learning curve, i learned the lumagen pretty quickly). and as cheapest out the door as possible while still seeing increased benefits. I KNOW a professional calibrator is unbeatable but i would rather put the money into equipment so i can calibrate yearly for gamma droop etc

what is the easiest to use meter and software? is it automatically loaded onto the the lumagen? anything else i should know? I am pretty tech saavy and am ok with researching and leanring

thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

I'd say get an i1DisplayPro meter and a i1Pro Spectro. You can use both to do the baseline JVC work and then the i1D can be profiled to the i1Pro for the Lumagen work with software. CalMan vs Colorspace comes down to learning curve and what you want to spend, but both work well with the Lumagen. I can't speak to Chromapure as I have not used it in a long time.

Regardless of what you use there is a learning curve to this. There is no plug and play solution and I see more bad info on how to do it online than good info. You need to learn what the Radiance can and can't do, how to do a great baseline calibration of the projector BEFORE you start using the Radiance for calibration and a solid foundation on how to calibrate a display. I still get calls from seasoned calibrators that have been doing this kind of work for over a decade now on how to do this properly, so that should tell you something right there.


----------



## jbrinegar

187crew003 said:


> If anyone in this thread is doing their own calibrations with the lumagen and meter, could you pm me? i want to pick your brain
> 
> thanks!


I use chromapure and i1display pro. I realize it might not be as good as some other calibration software, but I find it very easy to run, works well with lumagen (very automated) and Im happy with the results. I find it sufficient for my amateur calibration


----------



## 187crew003

Thank you very much for the write up!
I am willing to learn. I tend to learn quickly. I want somthing that would get MORE out of the lumagen than just plugging it in and setting up DTM

I def would start with the projector first. Then use the lumagen

woudlnt the software tell the lumagen what settings are needed? How much does experience in calibrations play into it? Are thesoftware programs not self
Run after setting up the equipment and clicking run?
Thanks again

just trying to weigh my options at this point.


----------



## 187crew003

jbrinegar said:


> I use chromapure and i1display pro. I realize it might not be as good as some other calibration software, but I find it very easy to run, works well with lumagen (very automated) and Im happy with the results. I find it sufficient for my amateur calibration


This is exactly what I’m looking for. Very automated and work well with the lumagen 
Did you see a big improvement after its calibration?


----------



## Kris Deering

No software changes Lumagen settings. The only thing they do is load a LUT into memory. There is no automated process other than it putting up patterns and taking measurements. You still have to know how to setup the Lumagen, projector and what targets to use.


----------



## jbrinegar

187crew003 said:


> This is exactly what I’m looking for. Very automated and work well with the lumagen
> Did you see a big improvement after its calibration?


I would say its more of a subtle improvement to my eyes. First I do a JVC autocal (spyder 5 for gamma and ipro 2 for color). This does a really good job and gets the delta Es pretty low.

Then I run chromapure to "fine tune" the color and gamma so to speak. After you set up your meter and connect the chromapure software on my laptop to the lumagen, its automated and I can just walk away for an hr while it does its thing. There is definitely a learning curve, but its doable.

I do a calibration for cms0 for sdr 709, and I do one for cms1 SDR2020. 

If I didnt do JVC autocal first, Im sure it would be a much more noticeable improvement.

I would imagine K Deering or Chad B would be a much better, thorough, and accurate calibration and probably more of a noticeable difference since they are professionals, but Im happy with my own for the time being.


----------



## 187crew003

jbrinegar said:


> I would say its more of a subtle improvement to my eyes. First I do a JVC autocal (spyder 5 for gamma and ipro 2 for color). This does a really good job and gets the delta Es pretty low.
> 
> Then I run chromapure to "fine tune" the color and gamma so to speak. After you set up your meter and connect the chromapure software on my laptop to the lumagen, its automated and I can just walk away for an hr while it does its thing. There is definitely a learning curve, but its doable.
> 
> I do a calibration for cms0 for sdr 709, and I do one for cms1 SDR2020.
> 
> If I didnt do JVC autocal first, Im sure it would be a much more noticeable improvement.
> 
> I would imagine K Deering or Chad B would be a much better, thorough, and accurate calibration and probably more of a noticeable difference since they are professionals, but Im happy with my own for the time being.


i appreciate the feedback!

Ill start with the JVC autocal and go from there. thanks!


----------



## GerryWaz

Wasn't there an issue with Calman and Radiance calibrations (HDR?)? Just can't remember. Seem to recall Jim not recommending it a while back . . .

If there was, what is the issue and has it been addressed in Calman?


----------



## PeterLarsson

My conclusion so far is that HDR10 converted from Dolby Vision on ATV is generally dimmer and darker than HDR10 from UHD discs. I bit concerned around that actually since a lot of streaming happens in my home, form iTunes movies, to netflix and other streaming services. And the majority of the material is DV. Do you have the same experience or have I only had some bad luck in my choise of content?

Nevertheless, I am very pleased with th result on VW790, SDR and normal HD material and even TV looks like 4k med Darbee scaling and sharpness tool . I also would like to take the opprtunity to recommend Gordon and Convergent from UK. I have asked him tons of question before my purchase and tons of questions afterwards as well. He answers and support me with endless patiance, very greatful for that. And hopefully we will see more Lumagen Owners in Sweden eventually. That is the scary thing, no retailers have any exeperience of Lumagen, my own calibrator fdor example has never worked with the Lumagen. We even consider to do all calibration in the Sony itself since it could be complicated to start in Lumagen. Thoughts?


----------



## jbrinegar

PeterLarsson said:


> My conclusion so far is that HDR10 converted from Dolby Vision on ATV is generally dimmer and darker than HDR10 from UHD discs. I bit concerned around that actually since a lot of streaming happens in my home, form iTunes movies, to netflix and other streaming services. And the majority of the material is DV. Do you have the same experience or have I only had some bad luck in my choise of content?
> 
> Nevertheless, I am very pleased with th result on VW790, SDR and normal HD material and even TV looks like 4k med Darbee scaling and sharpness tool . I also would like to take the opprtunity to recommend Gordon and Convergent from UK. I have asked him tons of question before my purchase and tons of questions afterwards as well. He answers and support me with endless patiance, very greatful for that. And hopefully we will see more Lumagen Owners in Sweden eventually. That is the scary thing, no retailers have any exeperience of Lumagen, my own calibrator fdor example has never worked with the Lumagen. We even consider to do all calibration in the Sony itself since it could be complicated to start in Lumagen. Thoughts?



My apple tv content looks great. Seems about the same brightness wise to me than UHD disc. I use low lamp, iris wide open on my 135" neve screen. It gets me 70 nits. Im running the lumagen on global max light 350, Dpad 2. 

Have you tried adjusting your global max light or the dpad on the lumagen to see if you could get an image that is brighter/acceptable to you?


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> My conclusion so far is that HDR10 converted from Dolby Vision on ATV is generally dimmer and darker than HDR10 from UHD discs. I bit concerned around that actually since a lot of streaming happens in my home, form iTunes movies, to netflix and other streaming services. And the majority of the material is DV. Do you have the same experience or have I only had some bad luck in my choise of content?
> 
> Nevertheless, I am very pleased with th result on VW790, SDR and normal HD material and even TV looks like 4k med Darbee scaling and sharpness tool . I also would like to take the opprtunity to recommend Gordon and Convergent from UK. I have asked him tons of question before my purchase and tons of questions afterwards as well. He answers and support me with endless patiance, very greatful for that. And hopefully we will see more Lumagen Owners in Sweden eventually. That is the scary thing, no retailers have any exeperience of Lumagen, my own calibrator fdor example has never worked with the Lumagen. We even consider to do all calibration in the Sony itself since it could be complicated to start in Lumagen. Thoughts?


I can't say I find streaming DV output as HDR particularly dark. Some of the HDR on Netflix isn't great. I probably fault more of it as having brighter outdoor scenes that are washed out and lacking in contrast, than dark scenes that are too dark. 

While it is workable to put the calibration in the projector, remember many of us hail from a time when one of *the* main reasons for buying a Lumagen device was the availability of the enhanced accuracy from the calibration tools available within. I'm very much biased in favour of getting the calibration in the Lumagen. Your calibrator doesn't necessarily need Lumagen experience as the Lumagen specific matters around the 3DLUT stuff is simple, but if they're not familiar with 3DLUT based calibration as a means of calibrating I'd say they could be onto a bit of a learning curve, and to be honest it probably takes more time that a single calibration session to get to grips with all the ins and outs of it. Do you know if your calibrator does 3DLUT based calibrations at the moment?


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> thanks! I didnt want to clutter this thread
> 
> Im looking for as simple as possible (obviously i am ok with a learning curve, i learned the lumagen pretty quickly). and as cheapest out the door as possible while still seeing increased benefits. I KNOW a professional calibrator is unbeatable but i would rather put the money into equipment so i can calibrate yearly for gamma droop etc
> 
> what is the easiest to use meter and software? is it automatically loaded onto the the lumagen? anything else i should know? I am pretty tech saavy and am ok with researching and leanring
> 
> thanks


I will start by saying video calibration is a bit of a rabbithole that goes pretty deep. If you don't want a new hobby (!) then getting someone in is probably a pretty good idea. Reality is for most folk the quality of meters that a pro will use is out of reach, even the entry level of software plus meter to do 3DLUT probably runs to a bit more than a pro calibration. That said it is an interesting field to learn about. I'm just saying this as a recovering calibration enthusiast who has lost many hours of sleep (and ££££) in the pursuit of picture quality, measurements and meters as a hobby. Given the time again I might choose to spend that time and money on something else! 

i1d3 (i1display pro) is easily the best starter meter, though it isn't strictly compatible with JVC autocal. There is recently a way round this (a hack that makes the i1d3 look like a Spyder with good quality readings...!) but I'm not sure if that is applicable to the old versions of autocal that are required on an RS600. 
Worth reading this, I'm sure enlightenment lies within...:








Using Alternative Meters for JVC Autocal Software


Posts 1 and 3 should already cover most of what you need to know to use the Alternative DLLs. Please read before asking questions. JVC have been providing automatic calibration software for various models of their D-ILA projectors. Each projector model requires a specific version of the...




www.avsforum.com




A spectrophoto/radiometer is useful to profile the colorimeter, but on the JVCs - which don't have a challenging light source spectrum - the built in "Projector" mode in the i1d3 is reasonably good. 

On my X7900 it is quite possible to get a great 3DLUT calibration without doing anything much to the projector other than getting it into Profile off. If the RS600 has a mode which is linear in behaviour then it likely is possible to do similar. Having said that, the JVC autocal process is much more guided and well documented than doing 3DLUT, so it can't hurt to start there. Or go back even further to basics, and look at understanding calibration purely with the user controls maybe with software like HCFR. Although it doesn't get the best results, it can be useful just from the point of view of understanding a bit more about how displays work. Maybe that's a step too far these days and a bit masochistic.

Personally I like Colourspace and Lightspace for the job of 3DLUT calibration. Once you have a meter, there is a free version of Lightspace (ZRO) which can be used for manual calibration, but if you want to drive the Lumagen patch generator (highly recommended, a SW controlled patch generator makes calibration much easier) then you will need a paid for license (HTL or above).


----------



## 187crew003

K my head is spinning. I think like yoh said. I’ll wait for covid to be over then get a calibration pro up in here

thanks very much!

business venture idea. Let’s develop a fully automated calibration for these bad boys.


----------



## MOberhardt

bobof said:


> i1d3 (i1display pro) is easily the best starter meter, though it isn't strictly compatible with JVC autocal. There is recently a way round this (a hack that makes the i1d3 look like a Spyder with good quality readings...!) but I'm not sure if that is applicable to the old versions of autocal that are required on an RS600.


I never got the JVC autocal. I mean not pointing the meter at the screen. You point it into the lens? Or did they change this?


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Does adding Lumagen to setup with DCR lens maintains the benefit of anamorphic lens like full panel use and increased lumens? 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> No software changes Lumagen settings. The only thing they do is load a LUT into memory.


Is there a way to save the stock (default) color settings before loading the LUT into the Lumagen? Or is the process just restoring the unit to stock settings to delete the new LUT?


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> I never got the JVC autocal. I mean not pointing the meter at the screen. You point it into the lens? Or did they change this?


For the gamma portion it makes no difference; the gamma is self-relative to the panel peak for each channel, and it just fires one colour at once. The meter just acts basically as a light meter. Lens, screen, whatever - use whatever gets you best readings above the noise floor of the meter and below its max.

For colour, really best to read off screen to take into account screen, though JVC try to work around this with the screen adjust feature. Spyder originally used facing lens isn't very good for colour anyway. I1pro2 for colour works pretty well, and is best measured from screen. 

There are reasons on displays with working profile off mode (it sounds like not the new series perhaps) to prefer that over going near autocal. That is the approach I prefer.


----------



## bobof

Killroy said:


> Is there a way to save the stock (default) color settings before loading the LUT into the Lumagen? Or is the process just restoring the unit to stock settings to delete the new LUT?


At any time you can backup your whole config over USB to a PC.
But if you've not done any calibration, there isn't anything to back up.
The LUTS are loading with unity (bypass) LUTs by default, and at least Lightspace has options to reset the LUTs. Alternatively you can do it from the remote control via the OSD easily.


----------



## Sittler27

I have an i1display pro and a Spyder 5 Pro. I have an NX9 and a Lumagen.
Is this the general approach to manual calibration?
1. JVC Gamma only autocal with facing projector
2. With Profile Off & using Colourspace+i1d3, I use 100 peak white pattern generated from Lumagen to adjust Projector's gains controls to get 100 peak white RGB balanced (i.e. remove all the green it pushes) by mainly adjusting down the red and blue gain only (don't touch green)
3. I run a 3DLUT and then load it into Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Does adding Lumagen to setup with DCR lens maintains the benefit of anamorphic lens like full panel use and increased lumens?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Absolutely. And not only that, allows for EVERY aspect ratio to be displayed exactly as intended from 4x3 to full scope nearly instantly.


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> I have an i1display pro and a Spyder 5 Pro. I have an NX9 and a Lumagen.
> Is this the general approach to manual calibration?
> 1. JVC Gamma only autocal with facing projector
> 2. With Profile Off & using Colourspace+i1d3, I use 100 peak white pattern generated from Lumagen to adjust Projector's gains controls to get 100 peak white RGB balanced (i.e. remove all the green it pushes) by mainly adjusting down the red and blue gain only (don't touch green)
> 3. I run a 3DLUT and then load it into Lumagen.


That's a pretty simplified approach that would probably work okay but I don't think it would produce the best results.


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## bjorg

I'm using the Control4 driver for the Radiance Pro and there doesn't seem to be a way to switch to HDMI7 (only up to HDMI6). Am I missing something?


----------



## David Shapiro

I didn’t have it in me to go through this thread again, so I apologize if this is old news. I finally figured out how to get the Lumagen to play nice with the Apple TV. Or is it the other way around. Anyway, everything was perfect with the latest update. No video dropouts. Until 3 or 4 days went by and it started up again. I realized that when I turn the system off, the Lumagen is actually on standby. It actually needs to be turned OFF, which is impossible with the remote or Control 4 system. I installed a smart outlet and cut the power. When it turns on with my system, it essentially reboots and everything is perfect again.
This work-around wouldn’t be necessary if there was an actual “off” command, but at least it works.

David


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## audioguy

David Shapiro said:


> I didn’t have it in me to go through this thread again, so I apologize if this is old news. I finally figured out how to get the Lumagen to play nice with the Apple TV. Or is it the other way around. Anyway, everything was perfect with the latest update. No video dropouts. Until 3 or 4 days went by and it started up again. I realized that when I turn the system off, the Lumagen is actually on standby. It actually needs to be turned OFF, which is impossible with the remote or Control 4 system. I installed a smart outlet and cut the power. When it turns on with my system, it essentially reboots and everything is perfect again.
> This work-around wouldn’t be necessary if there was an actual “off” command, but at least it works.
> 
> David


Curious: I use C4 as well and it turns on and off the Lumagen. At least the front lights on the Lumagen are red when it turns off!


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> I'm using the Control4 driver for the Radiance Pro and there doesn't seem to be a way to switch to HDMI7 (only up to HDMI6). Am I missing something?


The standard one-way RS232 driver for Control4 has up to 18 inputs, which was more needed for the XD series Lumagen that had analog inputs. 

I use a custom two-way RS232 driver that has 8 inputs. It was created, so it could automatically trigger my 4-way masking screen and it will automatically “overlay” the volume of my Trinnov on-screen when it turned up or down. 

I can PM you the contact for the guy who made the custom driver, if you are interested. It requires a license which he can sell you.

BTW, I have closely followed your build and I’m just blown away. Peter is a friend, and he does incredible work. My next theater upgrade will definitely include a video wall. I have seen both the Samsung and Sony, and I thought the Sony looked significantly better. The image was stunning. I know you have to be excited to have your room completed. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> That's a pretty simplified approach that would probably work okay but I don't think it would produce the best results.


What changes to the approach should I male to produce the best results?


----------



## PeterLarsson

jbrinegar said:


> My apple tv content looks great. Seems about the same brightness wise to me than UHD disc. I use low lamp, iris wide open on my 135" neve screen. It gets me 70 nits. Im running the lumagen on global max light 350, Dpad 2.
> 
> Have you tried adjusting your global max light or the dpad on the lumagen to see if you could get an image that is brighter/acceptable to you?


Thanks - will try that. Also tried to lower the HDR Gamma a bit to -2 with the trade off in brighter scenes.



bobof said:


> I can't say I find streaming DV output as HDR particularly dark. Some of the HDR on Netflix isn't great. I probably fault more of it as having brighter outdoor scenes that are washed out and lacking in contrast, than dark scenes that are too dark.
> 
> While it is workable to put the calibration in the projector, remember many of us hail from a time when one of *the* main reasons for buying a Lumagen device was the availability of the enhanced accuracy from the calibration tools available within. I'm very much biased in favour of getting the calibration in the Lumagen. Your calibrator doesn't necessarily need Lumagen experience as the Lumagen specific matters around the 3DLUT stuff is simple, but if they're not familiar with 3DLUT based calibration as a means of calibrating I'd say they could be onto a bit of a learning curve, and to be honest it probably takes more time that a single calibration session to get to grips with all the ins and outs of it. Do you know if your calibrator does 3DLUT based calibrations at the moment?


My calibrator doesnt do 3DLUT. What I have understood is that Sony in general have good tools to get it right in the display, so perghaps the easiest and smartest way would be to calibrate as usual, in the display. The question is if one lose a bit on that. HDR tonemapping happens on "raw" uncalibrated material or if that doesnt matter at all...


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> My calibrator doesnt do 3DLUT. What I have understood is that Sony in general have good tools to get it right in the display, so perghaps the easiest and smartest way would be to calibrate as usual, in the display. The question is if one lose a bit on that. HDR tonemapping happens on "raw" uncalibrated material or if that doesnt matter at all...


Unless they're interested in spending their own time learning about it, I'm not sure I'd want a 3DLUT calibration done by someone who doesn't do them. So from a calibrator who hasn't done 3DLUT, and isn't going to learn how to do it before coming to you, but is competent in standard calibration, I'd probably get the standard calibration. Though if I were paying, I'd probably find a different calibrator to be honest as for me using the 3DLUT capability is something I want to do.

Undoubtedly there will be some accuracy being left on the table following that route. How much depends on the display's capabilities, its controls, and calibrator skill. If they do a standard HDR calibration, assuming the device feeding the projector is a standard HDR source, I think it's likely not to be a great match for the Lumagen. The Lumagen (usually) gets best results with a predictable SDR 2.4 gamma output as it doesn't end up fighting whatever the calibrator has done to try and make PQ content look good in the projector's limited calibration controls. I say (usually) as there are some displays where output capabilities are limited by using an SDR 2.4 gamma (eg some OLEDS limit peak brightness, some projectors limit maximum gamut). You'd ideally pick the brains of someone with Lumagen experience and actual model projector experience to get the best combination of settings. 

The HDR tonemapping in the Lumagen by default operates on the raw input and assumes the display is a "perfect" REC2020/REC709/DCIIP3 display with either a 2.4 or PQ gamma input curve (exactly which depends on options selected in the CMS menu). The tonemapping operates the same with or without calibration in the Lumagen. The 3DLUT and other calibration controls sits between the tonemapping output and the display output to compensate for the non-perfect response of the display relative to the selected standards. It is important that the calibrator (or you) at least understands the Lumagen specifics to set up the colour space controls in the CMS properly to match the mode which has been calibrated.

Personally I bought into the Lumagen to be able to get excellent calibration and not just "in general good", but I'm equally aware these days of more than a few folk just using them for doing HDR tonemapping or scaling.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> I have an i1display pro and a Spyder 5 Pro. I have an NX9 and a Lumagen.
> Is this the general approach to manual calibration?
> 1. JVC Gamma only autocal with facing projector
> 2. With Profile Off & using Colourspace+i1d3, I use 100 peak white pattern generated from Lumagen to adjust Projector's gains controls to get 100 peak white RGB balanced (i.e. remove all the green it pushes) by mainly adjusting down the red and blue gain only (don't touch green)
> 3. I run a 3DLUT and then load it into Lumagen.


On the older X7900, Gamma Autocal doesn't affect Profile Off mode - the projector defaults to no autocal gamma table being used. I'm not sure if this changed on the N series or not. You'd have to check before and after to see if the gamma changes in profile off. If it doesn't change, then in future you can avoid that step. I've skim read some posts from @Kris Deering which imply that Profile off mode may be buggily implemented on the N series, which might not make it a good basis for calibration. Search the user thread for that projector model series, I'm not across all the details as it doesn't affect my older X7900.

Maybe a language barrier thing, but by "green push" I understand "too much green". If you have too much green (normal with UHP projectors due to excess of yellow light), then you wouldn't be able to get D65 (balanced) white by removing blue and red... You would have to remove green and perhaps one other colour. The key with 100% RGB adjustment is to only remove colours that are in excess. So whichever colour you have the least of is the one you don't adjust, and then you bring down the other one or two to match it. Green push naturally means removing green, which has quite a big effect on light output. This is normal, and part of the "brightness game" with projectors - the lumens output is measured in modes which are wholly unsuitable for video reproduction. 

At all stages I think with 3DLUT it is important to "know your enemy", so a prescribed "shopping list" approach isn't really the way forward. Effective 3DLUT calibration means understanding how the display modes work, what they appear to be doing, picking the best mode, profiling and generating the best 3DLUT to deal with the display's foibles. Understanding the display usually means running a few quick profile runs (either small cubes or combinations of the built in quick profiles for gamut and saturation). 

There is tons of good info on Light Illusion's website about spotting some of the gotchas for 3DLUT calibration and possible ways of working around then, read and inwardly digest. If you choose to do 3DLUT in the non-profile off modes, then there are further gotchas to watch out for as the Colourspace and Lightspace engines don't much like the gamut compression that happens at the edges of those modes on displays - it really much prefers to be operating on a raw, non-colour managed display. 

Good luck!


----------



## PeterLarsson

Fantastic @bobof - thanks a million for your detailed answer. 

Since I am not familair with how to calibrate I still have some questions in relation to your answers if you donot mind:

First I would like to get Rec709 calibrated for SDR709 in CMS0. Is it possible to do that manually in Lumagen with Calman? Do one use the test patterns in Lumagen for all the colors and greyscale? I mean is that the same process as I have done for Digital lack by setting that in Sony and Optical black in Lumagen? Idid that for both CMS0 and 1.

I run HDR in SDR2020 container in CMS1. Since my projector doesnt fully support REC2020 (Ihave a Sony VW790 or VW915 here in US) how would be the best setup here? Copy the values given for Rec709 so at least those primaries are correct or how would you suggest to approach that?`I assume of corse HDR Tone mapping should be off during calibration .

Thanks again for inputs, really valuble


----------



## KarlKlammer

Last week, I made an attempt at using profile off with filter (JVC DLA-NX9). I was not really able to upload a gamma profile that tracked good to 2.4. So I left everything at default and corrected it with a 3D LUT. I can't say that I have experienced bugs yet. It was the first time, that I was able to create a LUT with ColourSpace using Peak Chroma without banding.

Here is a little comparison between DCI profile and profile off with filter (with active 1D LUT for gamma and greyscale). Good luck correcting DCI with a LUT.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Last week, I made an attempt at using profile off with filter (JVC DLA-NX9). I was not really able to upload a gamma profile that tracked good to 2.4. So I left everything at default and corrected it with a 3D LUT. I can't say that I have experienced bugs yet. It was the first time, that I was able to create a LUT with ColourSpace using Peak Chroma without banding.
> 
> Here is a little comparison between DCI profile and profile off with filter (with active 1D LUT for gamma and greyscale). Good luck correcting DCI with a LUT.
> 
> View attachment 3063491


Yeah, it's what you'd expect, without profile off, lots of odd rotations within the 3D view of the gamut. A nightmare to unpick for a LUT.
It sounds like the issues @Kris Deering was talking about were related not to the principle of profile off not working, but to quirks in it not enabling reliably etc. If it works reliably and stays in place for you then good times! Worth reviewing the info Kris posted in the other thread though and seeing if any of those use cases affect you.
I use it extensively on my X7900 and it works perfectly (though I have to do a bit of a hack to get it to work with the cinema filter), and so wholeheartedly recommend it!


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Fantastic @bobof - thanks a million for your detailed answer.
> 
> Since I am not familair with how to calibrate I still have some questions in relation to your answers if you donot mind:
> 
> First I would like to get Rec709 calibrated for SDR709 in CMS0. Is it possible to do that manually in Lumagen with Calman? Do one use the test patterns in Lumagen for all the colors and greyscale? I mean is that the same process as I have done for Digital lack by setting that in Sony and Optical black in Lumagen? Idid that for both CMS0 and 1.
> 
> I run HDR in SDR2020 container in CMS1. Since my projector doesnt fully support REC2020 (Ihave a Sony VW790 or VW915 here in US) how would be the best setup here? Copy the values given for Rec709 so at least those primaries are correct or how would you suggest to approach that?`I assume of corse HDR Tone mapping should be off during calibration .
> 
> Thanks again for inputs, really valuble


I've never used the Lumagen to do manual calibration without a 3DLUT, it seems pointless given it has a much better option in doing the 3DLUT. I've only used it for doing the digital black adjustment, which is something the LUTs can't adequately address. The prospect of spending the time and effort to work out exactly how the manual controls are implemented in the Lumagen, to get a likely worse result... No.  But of course, yes it should be possible to drive the pattern generator and adjust the greyscale and colours manually. 

Again on the 2nd point, you're asking how to spend a lot of effort to get a sub standard result, and I just wouldn't bother. The right way is to do it right. Map the display behaviour to the standard in a LUT, then let the Lumagen do the math to tone map within that display which has been mapped to the standard!  

I really couldn't tell you exactly how a particular Sony projector behaves in a particular mode, which is what you'd need to know to be able to set up SDR2020 appropriately without calibrating, I have no experience of them. You certainly wouldn't transfer the 709 CMS primaries to an SDR2020 CMS though, I'm sure that would give huge issues. you'd be telling it that the 709 primary points represented the 2020 primaries, which would lead to everything being massively undersaturated. If you wanted to use the SDR709 calibration as the basis for your HDR calibration you could switch to using CMS0 for HDR too, I think you just need to make sure you have the gamut mapping options enabled. That is a reasonable way to set it up, but you'd be leaving some gamut capability of the projector on the table (the area between REC709 and the native gamut of the projector would be ignored).


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> I run HDR in SDR2020 container in CMS1. Since my projector doesnt fully support REC2020 (Ihave a Sony VW790 or VW915 here in US) how would be the best setup here? Copy the values given for Rec709 so at least those primaries are correct or how would you suggest to approach that?`I assume of corse HDR Tone mapping should be off during calibration .


As @bobof said, don't use the 709 values for BT2020! Yes, you want ouput (or the Sony) calibrated for 2020/2.4 only, no HDR. You might want to do a multiple step operation to see what gets you down the path to a happy place...step 1, have a calibrated gamma in either the projector or the Lumagen. This will make a huge difference to you. Without doing a BT2020 profile, just see if you can live with this. We know the Sony doesn't cover P3 so profiling the larger 2020 will break your heart (and likely be worthless trying to correct). That said, step 2 is to correct the values through a 3DLUT for the P3 space in 2020 or even better, find the range within P3 in 2020 that the Sony reaches to and correct just that. This requires some work. With my new optical block (885ES) I zeroed out the previous correction I had in the Lumagen, set up a different preset in the Sony from my 709 choices and calibrated a different gamma 2.4 slot choice (based on the 2020 Color Space choice and even though both 709 and 2020 use D65). Knowing there were no corrections in for color (and having seen dE's for the Sony 2020 space, cringe!) we watched The Hobbit 4KHDR disc 1 yesterday and it was just amazing. I know the picture is off, some dE's OK but many, many really bad but what a great image. This weekend I will go in and do what I recommended to you in step 2 but I gotta say you may be happy not messing with a pretty complicated color correction (that will just drift from there).


----------



## PeterLarsson

jqmn said:


> As @bobof said, don't use the 709 values for BT2020! Yes, you want ouput (or the Sony) calibrated for 2020/2.4 only, no HDR. You might want to do a multiple step operation to see what gets you down the path to a happy place...step 1, have a calibrated gamma in either the projector or the Lumagen. This will make a huge difference to you. Without doing a BT2020 profile, just see if you can live with this. We know the Sony doesn't cover P3 so profiling the larger 2020 will break your heart (and likely be worthless trying to correct). That said, step 2 is to correct the values through a 3DLUT for the P3 space in 2020 or even better, find the range within P3 in 2020 that the Sony reaches to and correct just that. This requires some work. With my new optical block (885ES) I zeroed out the previous correction I had in the Lumagen, set up a different preset in the Sony from my 709 choices and calibrated a different gamma 2.4 slot choice (based on the 2020 Color Space choice and even though both 709 and 2020 use D65). Knowing there were no corrections in for color (and having seen dE's for the Sony 2020 space, cringe!) we watched The Hobbit 4KHDR disc 1 yesterday and it was just amazing. I know the picture is off, some dE's OK but many, many really bad but what a great image. This weekend I will go in and do what I recommended to you in step 2 but I gotta say you may be happy not messing with a pretty complicated color correction (that will just drift from there).


Thanks a lot  This is really benefical for the upcoming calibration.

After what I have read from you guys if I do as below it would give me a fairly good situation even if I could squeeze out the last 5% by a full 3DLUT calibration:
1. SDR REC709: Digital black (Sony), Optical Black (Lumagen), White/contrast (lumagen). Greyscale, gamma 2.4 and gamut in Sony
2. SDR REC2020: Digal black (Sony), Optical Black Lumagen, Dont need to bother about white/contrast since tone mapping is setting that, gamma 2.4 and gamut as far as possible in Sony

Is that a fair assumption of what you have in areally nice way try to tell me?


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> Last week, I made an attempt at using profile off with filter (JVC DLA-NX9). I was not really able to upload a gamma profile that tracked good to 2.4. So I left everything at default and corrected it with a 3D LUT. I can't say that I have experienced bugs yet. It was the first time, that I was able to create a LUT with ColourSpace using Peak Chroma without banding.
> 
> Here is a little comparison between DCI profile and profile off with filter (with active 1D LUT for gamma and greyscale). Good luck correcting DCI with a LUT.
> 
> View attachment 3063491


So the graphs we are looking are just with 1d lut correction Karl?
Did you follow up with a 3d lut calibration ?
If so did you get nice results?
I suppose you generated a dci p3 2.4 lut using peak chroma?


----------



## KarlKlammer

loggeo said:


> So the graphs we are looking are just with 1d lut correction Karl?
> Did you follow up with a 3d lut calibration ?
> If so did you get nice results?
> I suppose you generated a dci p3 2.4 lut using peak chroma?


I tend to do a two-part process: A 1D-LUT based on 'Grey Only Large' first and a 3D-LUT based on a 10^3 Cube afterwards. If the NX9 had laser, I would probably increase the size of the cube.  
The comparison, I posted above was after the 1D-LUT was applied. The gamut chart of the JVC DCI profile was targeted to DCI and profile off was targeted to itself.

The LUTs were generated using DCI P3 D65 2.4 with Peak Chroma.
I was very satisfied after completing the calibration. dE for greyscale was below 1. And Gamma also tracked very good.
This is the first time, I do not see any banding in the Marvel Logo.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> I tend to do a two-part process: A 1D-LUT based on 'Grey Only Large' first and a 3D-LUT based on a 10^3 Cube afterwards. If the NX9 had laser, I would probably increase the size of the cube.
> The comparison, I posted above was after the 1D-LUT was applied. The gamut chart of the JVC DCI profile was targeted to DCI and profile off was targeted to itself.
> 
> The LUTs were generated using DCI P3 D65 2.4 with Peak Chroma.
> I was very satisfied after completing the calibration. dE for greyscale was below 1. And Gamma also tracked very good.
> This is the first time, I do not see any banding in the Marvel Logo.


What kind of coverage did you end up with in the end? The native profile off gamut looked to be a fair bit wider than the built in P3 profile.


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks a lot  This is really benefical for the upcoming calibration.
> 
> After what I have read from you guys if I do as below it would give me a fairly good situation even if I could squeeze out the last 5% by a full 3DLUT calibration:
> 1. SDR REC709: Digital black (Sony), Optical Black (Lumagen), White/contrast (lumagen). Greyscale, gamma 2.4 and gamut in Sony
> 2. SDR REC2020: Digal black (Sony), Optical Black Lumagen, Dont need to bother about white/contrast since tone mapping is setting that, gamma 2.4 and gamut as far as possible in Sony
> 
> Is that a fair assumption of what you have in areally nice way try to tell me?


#1 Yes. You are probably going to find that Contrast on the Sony needs to be around 98 or so to have a little headroom above patch 235. Sony Brightness is almost always 50; lowering it doesn't give you any better optical black but does create lower video black with likely crush on bars 17, 18 and 19. I have found, on my unit, lowering the laser brightness level does produce a bit better native black (likely just reducing panel light leakage). The negative is Sony contrast comes more from the maximum white level than from the native panel black level so as you bring max white down you give up contrast. I do gamma in the Sony because it is faster for me but there are plenty here that would say they do it in the Lumagen. As long as you have a great gamma it doesn't matter. I will say though that there are a lot more gamma adjustment points in the Sony than in the Lumagen so getting very minor corrections and corrections between major levels can be done with more precision.

#2 I would do the same as above; you do need Contrast set correctly. I think @Kris Deering has indicated that he often uses laser at 100 for 4KHDR. As you know, the Lumagen looks to output to an expected gamma 2.4-- crushing black or blowing out max white should be prevented. That said I think you will find that Contrast will still be set around 98 or so even for a higher laser setting. I would have two "2.4 gammas"- one for Rec709 and one for BT2020. I use the "2.4" slot for 4KHDR movies and the "2.6" slot for Rec709 (each are calibrated). Thus I can set the 709 2.4 gamma off 709 RGB points and set the 2020 2.4 gamma off the 2020 RGB points. Each 2.4 gamma is set to D65. I don't know how much of a viewing difference this makes but I did find the curves are slightly different from one another even though each are 2.4/D65.

I don't know if the repair shop actually changed the variables in the system menu but with this new optical block Rec709 space is really good with no (other than gamma) other adjustments needed. I didn't expect this. BT2020 is a whole other can of worms.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks a lot  This is really benefical for the upcoming calibration.
> 
> After what I have read from you guys if I do as below it would give me a fairly good situation even if I could squeeze out the last 5% by a full 3DLUT calibration:
> 1. SDR REC709: Digital black (Sony), Optical Black (Lumagen), White/contrast (lumagen). Greyscale, gamma 2.4 and gamut in Sony
> 2. SDR REC2020: Digal black (Sony), Optical Black Lumagen, Dont need to bother about white/contrast since tone mapping is setting that, gamma 2.4 and gamut as far as possible in Sony
> 
> Is that a fair assumption of what you have in areally nice way try to tell me?


Note you have digital and optical black reversed; optical is set predominantly with brightness control on Sony, Digital with black level on Lumagen. Contrast should be set in PJ to be correct otherwise you may lose excessive light correcting to D65.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Correct, it is the opposite - i have done according to the manual 😊


----------



## jqmn

bobof said:


> Note you have digital and optical black reversed; optical is set predominantly with brightness control on Sony, Digital with black level on Lumagen. Contrast should be set in PJ to be correct otherwise you may lose excessive light correcting to D65.


Sony's also have a digital black setting in the Function Menu labelled "Dynamic Range" which should be set to match the Lumagen. The choices are Auto, Limited (16-235) and Full (0-255). There is also an HDMI Signal Format choice in the same Function menu. It should be checked but it is likely the case that Enhanced Format should be selected. I use Enhanced Format for everything; probably should go back and see if switching it back to Standard Format for BD or DVD makes a difference one way or the other.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> What kind of coverage did you end up with in the end? The native profile off gamut looked to be a fair bit wider than the built in P3 profile.


According to ColourSpace it is 96%.
I should measure it again with ChromaPure.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> According to ColourSpace it is 96%.
> I should measure it again with ChromaPure.


Naughty  
As and aside, are those out-of-CIE space red readings the result of negative Z values? Do you have the Klein profiled with a spectro?


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Yeah, it's what you'd expect, without profile off, lots of odd rotations within the 3D view of the gamut. A nightmare to unpick for a LUT.
> It sounds like the issues @Kris Deering was talking about were related not to the principle of profile off not working, but to quirks in it not enabling reliably etc. If it works reliably and stays in place for you then good times! Worth reviewing the info Kris posted in the other thread though and seeing if any of those use cases affect you.
> I use it extensively on my X7900 and it works perfectly (though I have to do a bit of a hack to get it to work with the cinema filter), and so wholeheartedly recommend it!


I just wish on the RS540 that Profile Off could be used on multiple user memories. Since I can only use it once, it is probably best to keep Profile Off for HDR (SDR2020), and choose two other color profiles for SDR and 3D.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> As and aside, are those out-of-CIE space red readings the result of negative Z values? Do you have the Klein profiled with a spectro?


Yes, it's the result of negative Z values. I profiled the K10-A with 3 different spectros. None of them measured negative Z values. The K10-A still does.


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## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, it's the result of negative Z values. I profiled the K10-A with 3 different spectros. None of them measured negative Z values. The K10-A still does.


The "joys" of the high-end huh!


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## bobof

giomania said:


> I just wish on the RS540 that Profile Off could be used on multiple user memories. Since I can only use it once, it is probably best to keep Profile Off for HDR (SDR2020), and choose two other color profiles for SDR and 3D.


I use profile-off on a few user memories on my X7900 (HDR, SDR and 3D). The only "gotchas" as far as I can tell is that there is only one selectable colour temp (high bright) and you can only give it one set of values, and if you want filter on in any of the modes you probably have to leave it on for all of them. Is that the reason you don't use it? Or something else? I think my X7900 is the same as the RS540?

I set up high bright to be correct white (D65) for the SDR. HDR shouldn't have any superwhite content as it is only valid between 64-940 supposedly, and the tone mapping (unlike a disc) shouldn't generate non video legal values, so I just let the LUT sort out the white point for that. And 3D; well there's so much going on there I'm not really bothered about the superwhite aspect!


----------



## 187crew003

Ok. I did the gamma auto cal on my rs600

next step. Should I use spears and Munsol to set brightness contrast tint and color? Or lumagen tests patterns.
And where do I make the adjustments. In the PJ controls. Or the lumagen controls?

thanks for all the info everyone


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> I use profile-off on a few user memories on my X7900 (HDR, SDR and 3D). The only "gotchas" as far as I can tell is that there is only one selectable colour temp (high bright) and you can only give it one set of values, and if you want filter on in any of the modes you probably have to leave it on for all of them. Is that the reason you don't use it? Or something else? I think my X7900 is the same as the RS540?
> 
> I set up high bright to be correct white (D65) for the SDR. HDR shouldn't have any superwhite content as it is only valid between 64-940 supposedly, and the tone mapping (unlike a disc) shouldn't generate non video legal values, so I just let the LUT sort out the white point for that. And 3D; well there's so much going on there I'm not really bothered about the superwhite aspect!


Well, I have been using Profile Off with the filter on for HDR, SDR, and 3D for a couple of years, but am recalibrating with ColourSpace now, and finally realized (duh!) that like you mentioned, there is only one set of values for setting the white point prior to profiling.

I do have different Iris settings for each memory, but only use high lamp for 3D, as it is too loud. I watch a significant amount of HDR, and don’t want it on high lamp.

I probably don’t need high bright and the filter on for SDR anyway, so I will profile the other color temps to see what will work.

Mark




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## bjorg

Is it possible to set the image scaling based on AR? For example, for AR <1.78, I would like shrink the image by ~8%. For >=1.78 to <=2.0, shrink by ~4%. And for anything >2.0, keep original image.


----------



## MOberhardt

After a few weeks with it, I still find it like a cheat code, and I find it hard to comment on the quality of a UHD or Blu Ray I've seen to others as I am not sure how much is the transfer and now much is the processing. Eg I don't really feel like posting on a movie thread about how great the image is... 

How would you handle being a movie reviewed with it I wonder? I mean would you turn it off to do the review?


----------



## 187crew003

MOberhardt said:


> After a few weeks with it, I still find it like a cheat code, and I find it hard to comment on the quality of a UHD or Blu Ray I've seen to others as I am not sure how much is the transfer and now much is the processing. Eg I don't really feel like posting on a movie thread about how great the image is...
> 
> How would you handle being a movie reviewed with it I wonder? I mean would you turn it off to do the review?


It’s not reproducing anything not there. It’s actually producing more like the producer intended and as projectors are Supposed to display the image. So it’s more accurate imho

BUT would you review a movies bass with BEQ enabled? That’s way more of a cheat code since the content your hearing isn’t meant to be heard by the masses without augmentation


----------



## MOberhardt

187crew003 said:


> It’s not reproducing anything not there. It’s actually producing more like the producer intended and as projectors are Supposed to display the image. So it’s more accurate imho
> 
> BUT would you review a movies bass with BEQ enabled? That’s way more of a cheat code since the content your hearing isn’t meant to be heard by the masses without augmentation


No way I'd do a review with BEQ on... I would get everyone writing in saying "the bass was horrible!". I would probably comment on it though if it would enhance it. I kind of feel that the video enhancement is sort of the same area from a review perspective!


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## 187crew003

Not really. Would you NOT do a review cause your pj is a 10k$ but you most are watching on a $1000 tv? Not the same


----------



## Ash Sharma

Watched Mulan on Disney Plus - The picture was stunning on my VW5000 Lumagen DTM Combo - not sure if it would be better on Disc.
The scene after the glacier avalanche - when she stops on the horse, you can see the details of the horse and Mulan in the fog of the snow - Lumagen displayed the details perfectly.
Was wondering how 'washed out' the picture would be without Lumagen DTM... if someone can A/B how this scene looks with and without DTM it would be interesting.


----------



## PeterLarsson

jqmn said:


> #1 Yes. You are probably going to find that Contrast on the Sony needs to be around 98 or so to have a little headroom above patch 235. Sony Brightness is almost always 50; lowering it doesn't give you any better optical black but does create lower video black with likely crush on bars 17, 18 and 19. I have found, on my unit, lowering the laser brightness level does produce a bit better native black (likely just reducing panel light leakage). The negative is Sony contrast comes more from the maximum white level than from the native panel black level so as you bring max white down you give up contrast. I do gamma in the Sony because it is faster for me but there are plenty here that would say they do it in the Lumagen. As long as you have a great gamma it doesn't matter. I will say though that there are a lot more gamma adjustment points in the Sony than in the Lumagen so getting very minor corrections and corrections between major levels can be done with more precision.
> 
> #2 I would do the same as above; you do need Contrast set correctly. I think @Kris Deering has indicated that he often uses laser at 100 for 4KHDR. As you know, the Lumagen looks to output to an expected gamma 2.4-- crushing black or blowing out max white should be prevented. That said I think you will find that Contrast will still be set around 98 or so even for a higher laser setting. I would have two "2.4 gammas"- one for Rec709 and one for BT2020. I use the "2.4" slot for 4KHDR movies and the "2.6" slot for Rec709 (each are calibrated). Thus I can set the 709 2.4 gamma off 709 RGB points and set the 2020 2.4 gamma off the 2020 RGB points. Each 2.4 gamma is set to D65. I don't know how much of a viewing difference this makes but I did find the curves are slightly different from one another even though each are 2.4/D65.
> 
> I don't know if the repair shop actually changed the variables in the system menu but with this new optical block Rec709 space is really good with no (other than gamma) other adjustments needed. I didn't expect this. BT2020 is a whole other can of worms.


Contrast on 98? I better redo the white setting again then... When you guys calibrate for SDR2020 and HDR content you dont bother about setting the white point are you (contrast) due to the the DTM is steering that anyways?


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> Contrast on 98? I better redo the white setting again then... When you guys calibrate for SDR2020 and HDR content you dont bother about setting the white point are you (contrast) due to the the DTM is steering that anyways?


At least in my case, I said I set contrast for patch 235 and some headroom for both Rec709 and 4KHDR. The reason is that the Lumagen is outputting to an expected 2.4//D65/2020 space (so same parameters for everything but the color space itself) regardless as to whether the sink has 50 or 500 nits available. The DTM is on the Lumagen side prior to output so, based on what I know, it doesn't output expecting super-white on the sink side. I think this is also consistent with "The Unofficial Lumagen Radiance Pro Setup and Calibration Guide" available through this site by (IIRC) @giomania.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Ah ok. I thought for normal SDR REC709 - bit if you mean REC2020 for tonemapped content from Lumagen then I understand. What I have done is not touching the contrast for BT2020 in my projector since I was under the impression that Lumagen doesnt erally care of the white settning since the DTM anyway handles that.

But you have contrast on 98 for both or only REC2020?

Sorry but what is patch235?


----------



## 187crew003

has there been any work around for ATV 4k and the 60hz output of movies? trying to get ready for the HBO max first run movies starting with WDW 1984 on xmas.\\

as of now I watched a few disney+ movies and didnt notice the frame drops or judder, didnt know if there was a setting I could use to make sure it doesnt happen. Can the Lumagen convert it to 24hz?


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> Ah ok. I thought for normal SDR REC709 - bit if you mean REC2020 for tonemapped content from Lumagen then I understand. What I have done is not touching the contrast for BT2020 in my projector since I was under the impression that Lumagen doesnt erally care of the white settning since the DTM anyway handles that.
> 
> But you have contrast on 98 for both or only REC2020?
> 
> Sorry but what is patch235?


DTM does not "handle" Max White and Black; it adjusts what is in-between and outputs to an expected 2.4 gamma curve which has a Black of whatever the panel native black is and a Max White which you set based on Laser Level. When you calibrate gamma you are both adjusting the level of brightness at each point/step along the curve as well as getting the RGB mix right for D65 at each of those points. So Black and Max White need to be set as the anchor points and then each step in-between is set off that Max White for Rec709 and HDR-in-a-container using an outboard processor like the Lumagen. Patch 235 represents Max White in the 16 - 235 video scale as opposed to PC (or digital) scale of 0 - 255 (where Max White is 255). Note that Black is 16 (or 0 in PC/digital) which is why I said lowering the Brightness on a Sony below 50 typically doesn't lower the native panel black it just crushes patches/bars 17, 18 and or 19. For me, Contrast is the same for 709 and HDR using the Lumagen.


----------



## PeterLarsson

jqmn said:


> DTM does not "handle" Max White and Black; it adjusts what is in-between and outputs to an expected 2.4 gamma curve which has a Black of whatever the panel native black is and a Max White which you set based on Laser Level. When you calibrate gamma you are both adjusting the level of brightness at each point/step along the curve as well as getting the RGB mix right for D65 at each of those points. So Black and Max White need to be set as the anchor points and then each step in-between is set off that Max White for Rec709 and HDR-in-a-container using an outboard processor like the Lumagen. Patch 235 represents Max White in the 16 - 235 video scale as opposed to PC (or digital) scale of 0 - 255 (where Max White is 255). Note that Black is 16 (or 0 in PC/digital) which is why I said lowering the Brightness on a Sony below 50 typically doesn't lower the native panel black it just crushes patches/bars 17, 18 and or 19. For me, Contrast is the same for 709 and HDR using the Lumagen.


Thank you! will do anothoer round of seting contrast with Lumagens Test Patterns tonight!


----------



## giomania

PeterLarsson said:


> Thank you! will do anothoer round of seting contrast with Lumagens Test Patterns tonight!


I have detailed steps in the guide in my signature. That said, I just made some updates, and uploaded on 11/24/2020, but I made some other changes since then, so I need to upload a new document when I get home tonight.

Mark


----------



## MOberhardt

187crew003 said:


> has there been any work around for ATV 4k and the 60hz output of movies? trying to get ready for the HBO max first run movies starting with WDW 1984 on xmas.\\
> 
> as of now I watched a few disney+ movies and didnt notice the frame drops or judder, didnt know if there was a setting I could use to make sure it doesnt happen. Can the Lumagen convert it to 24hz?


Oh gee I hope WW1984 isn't getting a 60hz release. Goodnness no. It would have been shot 24p which means any 60p is messing with frames


----------



## 187crew003

MOberhardt said:


> Oh gee I hope WW1984 isn't getting a 60hz release. Goodnness no. It would have been shot 24p which means any 60p is messing with frames


my thoughts exactly. not sure how it will be outputted. however, I have been watching apple tv content and thus far havent noticed the judder from dropped frames...although it HAS to be there


----------



## MOberhardt

187crew003 said:


> my thoughts exactly. not sure how it will be outputted. however, I have been watching apple tv content and thus far havent noticed the judder from dropped frames...although it HAS to be there


Well if you have an Apple TV, and have it set up properly with match frame rate, etc you will get 24p. Not sure on the app version on various devices though. Could not pay me to watch a movie changed from 24 to 60


----------



## dlinsley

187crew003 said:


> has there been any work around for ATV 4k and the 60hz output of movies? trying to get ready for the HBO max first run movies starting with WDW 1984 on xmas.\\
> 
> as of now I watched a few disney+ movies and didnt notice the frame drops or judder, didnt know if there was a setting I could use to make sure it doesnt happen. Can the Lumagen convert it to 24hz?


We watched Last Christmas on HBO Max via the ATV 4K on Saturday, and so I just put it on again to check. It played as 23.98Hz. What's the 60Hz output issue (other than integer rates not being supported, presuming you have match rate set)?

I did notice a weirdness that it output as 23.98Hz SDR709 when I used my MemA config to have the ATV output 4K (match rate / content set on the ATV) but as 59.96Hz HDR2020 when using my MemB 1080p setting. Something not right in that, possibly the HBO app, as the Disney+ app works perfectly while switching at will. If you switch from 1080p to 4k, the YouTube TV app needs to be killed and restarted as it displays in just the top left 1/4 of the screen


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> I have detailed steps in the guide in my signature. That said, I just made some updates, and uploaded on 11/24/2020, but I made some other changes since then, so I need to upload a new document when I get home tonight.
> 
> Mark


Update uploaded.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Thanks for the update! Did all the black and white in my VW790 and in Lumagen yesterday. For both REC709 and REC2020 i put the contrast at 98 (extreme in my world) and the blacks no problem but couldnt differentiate 96 and 104 white until i had -1 (really clear on -2) in Lumagens white setting.

Watched the Meg just for the reference and the blacks fully fine and still at the same good level however close to strained eyes due to all the white. Really bright and even of Lumagen really made it through all the difficult scenes in the Meg sometimes I percived the picture a bit washed out. But in the other hand I saw details in the basement in IT part 2 (the very besinning) that I have not seen before- without losing any blacks.

Since I clearly see both 96% (little gray) and 104% (whiter than the white background) I assume that I have the correct settings?


----------



## MOberhardt

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks for the update! Did all the black and white in my VW790 and in Lumagen yesterday. For both REC709 and REC2020 i put the contrast at 98 (extreme in my world) and the blacks no problem but couldnt differentiate 96 and 104 white until i had -1 (really clear on -2) in Lumagens white setting.
> 
> Watched the Meg just for the reference and the blacks fully fine and still at the same good level however close to strained eyes due to all the white. Really bright and even of Lumagen really made it through all the difficult scenes in the Meg sometimes I percived the picture a bit washed out. But in the other hand I saw details in the basement in IT part 2 (the very besinning) that I have not seen before- without losing any blacks.
> 
> Since I clearly see both 96% (little gray) and 104% (whiter than the white background) I assume that I have the correct settings?


Ah yes I need to check The Meg now. That is also one of those bad metadata discs where they have it reported incorrectly like max call 1000 where it is 5000 or something to that effect.


----------



## bobof

I've just got a Monoprice HTP1 processor which I've hooked up to the audio-only output of the Lumagen 18G out card. With the Monoprice set to "Indicated" for the PCM format of the HDMI input (which should trust the PCM/non-PCM bit in the HDMI stream) it appears that all HD audio is no longer detected as HD Audio by the processor - it plays it as PCM - so digital noise is all that comes out. "Auto" and "biased" do work, where I guess it is muting for a while and figuring out if the stream itself is compressed before playing it, but the mutes are quite long. The assumption would be that some bit that the processor is relying on to indicate that the content shouldn't be played back as PCM is missing.

Has anyone else had an HTP1 and looked at this setting vs the Lumagen audio only output? Be interesting to hear any opinions before I go through the rigmarole of pulling stuff out and changing connections etc around to try and track down where the problem is.

If it helps any, looks like the HDMI and various boards in the unit are by MDS.


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> ...I percived the picture a bit washed out. But in the other hand I saw details in the basement in IT part 2 (the very besinning) that I have not seen before- without losing any blacks.
> 
> Since I clearly see both 96% (little gray) and 104% (whiter than the white background) I assume that I have the correct settings?


If you didn't, you next need to go into the Lumagen and set DTM for your new Max (Peak) White-- the Global MaxLight, DPad, and Low Ratio settings. These are best done if you know your output nits since the settings require input that are multipliers. If you don't have a meter put The Meg up and try 31 for Low, 2 for DPad, and 540 - 600 GML and go from there by eye.


----------



## *Harry*

I am in concern ... it's very silent around Lumagen.
No update, no news. 
Let's hope Jim and his team is well ...
🥺


----------



## PeterLarsson

jqmn said:


> If you didn't, you next need to go into the Lumagen and set DTM for your new Max (Peak) White-- the Global MaxLight, DPad, and Low Ratio settings. These are best done if you know your output nits since the settings require input that are multipliers. If you don't have a meter put The Meg up and try 31 for Low, 2 for DPad, and 540 - 600 GML and go from there by eye.


Cool thanks! I got the preconfigired Lumagen and a best guess of GML at 380. Dpad is 2 and LowRatio on 31 as per default. But you are correct - I must haev increased the nits bi increasing the peak whte and that must be changed of course. I have noticed that one only put in the nits * 4-5 to set the GML but nowhere to set the actual nits. I will get my Projector at least partly calibrated on Thursday, will focus on the extended Procella rigg i jhave first to get that calibrated


----------



## FenceMan

I am getting a new AVP (Arcam AV860), the question is what is the preferred placement in the video chain for the AVP? Should I go Lumagen -> AVP -> Projector or just Lumagen -> Projector with AVP only getting the audio from Lumagen over secondary HDMI? I would like to have an OSD for volume and other info if it doesn't muck up the video signal.


----------



## PeterLarsson

FenceMan said:


> I am getting a new AVP (Arcam AV860), the question is what is the preferred placement in the video chain for the AVP? Should I go Lumagen -> AVP -> Projector or just Lumagen -> Projector with AVP only getting the audio from Lumagen over secondary HDMI? I would like to have an OSD for volume and other info if it doesn't muck up the video signal.


I have Arcam 390 and I have Lumagen sending both video and audio to AVR and then to Projector so getting the OSD as well. I have tested both and I cant really tell any difference works well for me even if the syndc time is increased for example switching from 2160p to 1080p take a while. After all my calibrations are completed with both sound and projector Ii will skip the OSD and connect the "right" way I think


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> I have noticed that one only put in the nits * 4-5 to set the GML but nowhere to set the actual nits.


Yes, you don't actually input nits but it is helpful to know them so that when you do the 5X or 1X (or whatever works for you) calculation you are basing it off your projector's output coming off your screen.


----------



## fatherom

jqmn said:


> If you didn't, you next need to go into the Lumagen and set DTM for your new Max (Peak) White-- the Global MaxLight, DPad, and Low Ratio settings. These are best done if you know your output nits since the settings require input that are multipliers. If you don't have a meter put The Meg up and try 31 for Low, 2 for DPad, and 540 - 600 GML and go from there by eye.


Can you elaborate on this a bit? I did The Meg scene that Jim P pointed me to and ended up with a Max Light of 750 with my 885ES. I guess, what I'm wondering, is what "look" for The Meg should I be striving for?


----------



## 187crew003

quick easy question.

what is the difference (if any) of the 2ru radiance pro's vs the 1ru radiance pro's?


----------



## PeterLarsson

fatherom said:


> Can you elaborate on this a bit? I did The Meg scene that Jim P pointed me to and ended up with a Max Light of 750 with my 885ES. I guess, what I'm wondering, is what "look" for The Meg should I be striving for?


And I have an immediate follow up question: What scene in specific are we talking about here? Do you have a time stamp?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

*Harry* said:


> I am in concern ... it's very silent around Lumagen.
> No update, no news.
> Let's hope Jim and his team is well ...
> 🥺


They are fine. They are overwhelmed with orders and are working non stop to try to get units built and shipped out.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

187crew003 said:


> quick easy question.
> 
> what is the difference (if any) of the 2ru radiance pro's vs the 1ru radiance pro's?


There are two versions of the 2u unit. Orignal versions and ones which have the 1u board internally. These latter units were made before they transitioned to making the 444x units available solely in 1u cases. From a performance point of view they are all the same until you get to the microwave cap current board revision which may off slight performance advantage in hi-end systems. The 1u board layout was done as it was more robust in shipping compared to the oriignal 2u units where the FPGA was on a daughter board above the main PCB.


----------



## 187crew003

Gordon Fraser said:


> There are two versions of the 2u unit. Orignal versions and ones which have the 1u board internally. These latter units were made before they transitioned to making the 444x units available solely in 1u cases. From a performance point of view they are all the same until you get to the microwave cap current board revision which may off slight performance advantage in hi-end systems. The 1u board layout was done as it was more robust in shipping compared to the oriignal 2u units where the FPGA was on a daughter board above the main PCB.


thank you. didnt know if there was anything that would make a move from a 4440 2RU to a newer 4242 or the like 1ru a necessity


----------



## dlinsley

187crew003 said:


> what is the difference (if any) of the 2ru radiance pro's vs the 1ru radiance pro's?


Edit: Just seen Gordon beat me to it.

Early versions of the original 2U (2015, not sure when it was discontinued) offered a matrix output option for eight HDMI outputs, but otherwise I think that was the only difference. The 1U still offers 12V triggers as a purchase time option, though the manual doesn't show them on the 1U. The majority of the 2U case was empty, with only a small board (maybe 2" x 3") mounted above and to the main board. The main board was not very deep - maybe half the case depth - and so presumably the two boards were merged together (I've not looked inside the 1U version). You had to remove that smaller board to access the output and input 7-8 cards.


----------



## scrowe

bobof said:


> I've just got a Monoprice HTP1 processor which I've hooked up to the audio-only output of the Lumagen 18G out card. With the Monoprice set to "Indicated" for the PCM format of the HDMI input (which should trust the PCM/non-PCM bit in the HDMI stream) it appears that all HD audio is no longer detected as HD Audio by the processor - it plays it as PCM - so digital noise is all that comes out. "Auto" and "biased" do work, where I guess it is muting for a while and figuring out if the stream itself is compressed before playing it, but the mutes are quite long. The assumption would be that some bit that the processor is relying on to indicate that the content shouldn't be played back as PCM is missing.
> 
> Has anyone else had an HTP1 and looked at this setting vs the Lumagen audio only output? Be interesting to hear any opinions before I go through the rigmarole of pulling stuff out and changing connections etc around to try and track down where the problem is.
> 
> If it helps any, looks like the HDMI and various boards in the unit are by MDS.


Worth trying the Menu Commsnd that forces/syncs all supported audio formsts to the HDMI outputs?

MENU 0943


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> Worth trying the Menu Commsnd that forces/syncs all supported audio formsts to the HDMI outputs?
> 
> MENU 0943


I'll give it a go, just because I hate getting into the cabling, but not holding out much hope...


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> Worth trying the Menu Commsnd that forces/syncs all supported audio formsts to the HDMI outputs?
> 
> MENU 0943


Yeah, no dice. also tried both outs of the HDMI18G card, and both 18G microcodes. Sources connected direct to the HTP1 work fine with this PCM "Indicated" option, so it does seem to involve the Lumagen being in circuit. Support email gone off anyway, be interesting to see what's going on.

To be clear, there are modes in the HTP1 that seem to work "fine", (a bit slow to lock onto the audio format, but that is on the HTP1). Just trying to work out why I can't use this PCM "Indicated" option.

The video switching does seem pretty good on this though (no OSD to mess with the video either) so I'm almost tempted to break the habit of a lifetime and use it to switch instead of the Lumagen... gets me 8 inputs too...


----------



## tioneb

I have a quick question that someone on this forum might be able to answer or help me with. I have the Roku 4k stick plugged directly into the Radiance Pro. The display device is the JVC projector X790. I have been having some momentary blackouts (but audio is fine) when playing a 4K movie on Disney+. It does not last long and the image comes back. Also, if I stop the 4k movie, sometimes the screen goes black, I can hear the sound from the menu, and I have to switch to the other HDMI projector's input and back to the original HDMI input to get an image back. It seems to be a sync problem. In any case, do you think it's a problem with the Roku stick? I've noticed a lot of blackout problems on the Internet with the Roku since their last update. I do not have a similar problem when playing a 4k movie on my Sony UBP-X800.


----------



## jqmn

fatherom said:


> Can you elaborate on this a bit? I did The Meg scene that Jim P pointed me to and ended up with a Max Light of 750 with my 885ES. I guess, what I'm wondering, is what "look" for The Meg should I be striving for?


@PeterLarsson I wasn't referring to The Meg in particular. In this case, not knowing what Peter has in his room, I was just suggesting a starting point for him until he has his calibrator come in and refine things. This is what I use and these values put me at almost 6X nits in my room. I don't tinker per movie since I would lose 50% of the audience right off if I started doing that!


----------



## fatherom

jqmn said:


> @PeterLarsson I wasn't referring to The Meg in particular. In this case, not knowing what Peter has in his room, I was just suggesting a starting point for him until he has his calibrator come in and refine things. This is what I use and these values put me at almost 6X nits in my room. I don't tinker per movie since I would lose 50% of the audience right off if I started doing that!


But your original quote did refer to The Meg specifically, saying it could be used in lieu of a light meter. 

My question still stands: what is one striving for if they use The Meg? Specific scene? What brightness and "look" is the goal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

PeterLarsson said:


> Cool thanks! I got the preconfigired Lumagen and a best guess of GML at 380. Dpad is 2 and LowRatio on 31 as per default. But you are correct - I must haev increased the nits bi increasing the peak whte and that must be changed of course. I have noticed that one only put in the nits * 4-5 to set the GML but nowhere to set the actual nits. I will get my Projector at least partly calibrated on Thursday, will focus on the extended Procella rigg i jhave first to get that calibrated


Changing your contrast level doesn't change the light output of the projector, it just changes the digital white mapping to true white.


----------



## Jue Liang

*Harry* said:


> I am in concern ... it's very silent around Lumagen.
> No update, no news.
> Let's hope Jim and his team is well ...
> 🥺


I am sure they have been working hard on improving DTM. 
What I can tell you is that after testing the new upcoming firmware, I am over the moon, DTM is so much better!!! Not sure when it will be released, but I think you guys can expect a big Christmas gift!


----------



## MOberhardt

Does the Radiance have standby settings that you can get it to turn off if no signal. A Harmony elite activity I was working on turned the equipment on, and it looks like it keeps sending a signal to the projector, so the projector won't go standby on no signal either.


----------



## Nima

Jue Liang said:


> I am sure they have been working hard on improving DTM.
> What I can tell you is that after testing the new upcoming firmware, I am over the moon, DTM is so much better!!! Not sure when it will be released, but I think you guys can expect a big Christmas gift!


Any hint at an ETA? Shall I hold off watching LOTR in 4k?


----------



## jqmn

fatherom said:


> But your original quote did refer to The Meg specifically, saying it could be used in lieu of a light meter.
> 
> My question still stands: what is one striving for if they use The Meg? Specific scene? What brightness and "look" is the goal?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, I don't think I said The Meg in particular could be used instead of a light meter and if it came cross that way it's not what I meant. What I was trying to convey was that without a light meter and once @PeterLarsson had Brightness and Contrast set correctly, he could input DTM values such as I suggested (purely as a starting point) and then go from there to see if the scene he referred to as washed out improved. I have found that getting the 2.4 curve correct for the light output is initially more key to getting it right and then MaxLight follows from there.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Yes! Agree. Even now when the black and white is set- i dont know before calibration if that is valid or not due to gamma and grey scale. I tried contrast pattern och spears & munsil and found 90 in contrast was the setting to go for right now without clipping in blue, red or green. And then to be able to see 104% white om contrast 1 in Lumagen i changed white to -2.
One get to know a lot of stuff while trying out myself 😊🙏🏻


----------



## 187crew003

Jue Liang said:


> I am sure they have been working hard on improving DTM.
> What I can tell you is that after testing the new upcoming firmware, I am over the moon, DTM is so much better!!! Not sure when it will be released, but I think you guys can expect a big Christmas gift!


----------



## Mike_WI

Jue Liang said:


> I am sure they have been working hard on improving DTM.
> What I can tell you is that after testing the new upcoming firmware, I am over the moon, DTM is so much better!!! Not sure when it will be released, but I think you guys can expect a big Christmas gift!


By new do you mean:

*110120
- Posted 111820 *
Couple of DTM improvements. 
Added DSD multichannel audio. 
Fixed issues with purple/green screen on power up with some source devices. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_. 
_Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware. _ 

It's hard to read a thread over time and know what was "new" at the time especially if referring to a non-publich alpha/beta-FW update.


----------



## Jue Liang

Mike_WI said:


> By new do you mean:
> 
> *110120
> - Posted 111820 *
> Couple of DTM improvements.
> Added DSD multichannel audio.
> Fixed issues with purple/green screen on power up with some source devices.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_.
> _Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware. _
> 
> It's hard to read a thread over time and know what was "new" at the time especially if referring to a non-publich alpha/beta-FW update.


No, I mean something newer than this one. And the change in the new version is even more significant than this 110120 version, I would say I saw a substantial change in DTM in the upcoming firmware.


----------



## 187crew003

Jue Liang said:


> No, I mean something newer than this one. And the change in the new version is even more significant than this 110120 version, I would say I saw a substantial change in DTM in the upcoming firmware.


wow!


----------



## Nima

Ok now I will have to wait with the LOTR marathon.


----------



## Mike_WI

Jue Liang said:


> No, I mean something newer than this one. And the change in the new version is even more significant than this 110120 version, I would say I saw a substantial change in DTM in the upcoming firmware.


Thank you for the clarification.


----------



## raullopez1234

Is there an aspect ratio within the Lumagen able to properly display 2.4 anamorphic stretch with my jvc rs 620 and the paladin dcr lens 8999$msrp? Or can it be added in a software upgrade? I'm almost certain I will upgrade to a 4k native laser projector in the future and I want to purchase that lens for now to get me by.


----------



## bobof

raullopez1234 said:


> Is there an aspect ratio within the Lumagen able to properly display 2.4 anamorphic stretch with my jvc rs 620 and the paladin dcr lens 8999$msrp? Or can it be added in a software upgrade? I'm almost certain I will upgrade to a 4k native laser projector in the future and I want to purchase that lens for now to get me by.


Edit: removed, math wrong, long day....


----------



## scrowe

bobof said:


> Yeah, no dice. also tried both outs of the HDMI18G card, and both 18G microcodes. Sources connected direct to the HTP1 work fine with this PCM "Indicated" option, so it does seem to involve the Lumagen being in circuit. Support email gone off anyway, be interesting to see what's going on.
> 
> To be clear, there are modes in the HTP1 that seem to work "fine", (a bit slow to lock onto the audio format, but that is on the HTP1). Just trying to work out why I can't use this PCM "Indicated" option.
> 
> The video switching does seem pretty good on this though (no OSD to mess with the video either) so I'm almost tempted to break the habit of a lifetime and use it to switch instead of the Lumagen... gets me 8 inputs too...


I have a similar issue with an Odroid N2 (Linux media box) connected to Lumagen, with audio out to a soundbar. No sound or screeching from HD audio formats,fine with stereo/pcm/DTS/DD. UHD player and AppleTV work fine on same input and cable. Haven’t really been bothered to troubleshoot further.


----------



## raullopez1234

bobof said:


> Edit: removed, math wrong, long day....


So technically it somewhat possible . I really don't mind 2.55:1 . I actually have a 120" 16x9 screen , so I can zoom or shift the image to my liking. I actually really need that 1.4 throw of the dcr or else I would just get the regular paladin. I might just fall in love with the added brightness and more pixels and might not upgrade my projector at all. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## 187crew003

thats what happened from only my adding the Lumagen. I no longer want a new projector, just a new bulb cause i have ben logging tons of hours in the 2 weeks of having the lumagen in the chain


----------



## bobof

raullopez1234 said:


> So technically it somewhat possible . I really don't mind 2.55:1 . I actually have a 120" 16x9 screen , so I can zoom or shift the image to my liking. I actually really need that 1.4 throw of the dcr or else I would just get the regular paladin. I might just fall in love with the added brightness and more pixels and might not upgrade my projector at all. Thanks for the reply.


The Lumagen can do pretty arbitrary scaling. I think my math was upside down, so ignore all the stuff about 2.55 - I think it ends up the other way round, you'll have native 2.2ish and have some projected black bars top and bottom you'll have to put beyond your screen border. But as I say long day, don't trust a word I'm saying!  
Edit: that will be a bit ugly on a 16:9 screen unless you have some masking, as you'll have projected black top and bottom within the image frame. See previous deleted comment, I don't think I'd bother.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> I have a similar issue with an Odroid N2 (Linux media box) connected to Lumagen, with audio out to a soundbar. No sound or screeching from HD audio formats,fine with stereo/pcm/DTS/DD. UHD player and AppleTV work fine on same input and cable. Haven’t really been bothered to troubleshoot further.


It sounds like a similar issue. The AppleTV doesn't suffer from it because everything it outputs is PCM (apart from Atmos I believe which is MAT). I've got some gear at the office that might help me work out what is going on so I'll hook it up at some point.


----------



## raullopez1234

bobof said:


> The Lumagen can do pretty arbitrary scaling. I think my math was upside down, so ignore all the stuff about 2.55 - I think it ends up the other way round, you'll have native 2.2ish and have some projected black bars top and bottom you'll have to put beyond your screen border. But as I say long day, don't trust a word I'm saying!
> Edit: that will be a bit ugly on a 16:9 screen unless you have some masking, as you'll have projected black top and bottom within the image frame. See previous deleted comment, I don't think I'd bother.


A have a bat cave , completely cover with black velvet. 2:2 .1 really sounds like I might really like it.


----------



## dlinsley

Yes, 2.22 works. I preordered my RS3000 as a bundle with the DCR and had the dealer send me the DCR early to use with my RS600 for a few weeks, and 2.22 is what I used. I think there was a little extra (1" more than usual) to mask off left and right to make the image fit full height.


----------



## raullopez1234

dlinsley said:


> Yes, 2.22 works. I preordered my RS3000 as a bundle with the DCR and had the dealer send me the DCR early to use with my RS600 for a few weeks, and 2.22 is what I used. I think there was a little extra (1" more than usual) to mask off left and right to make the image fit full height.


Did you also use the Lumagen?


----------



## dlinsley

raullopez1234 said:


> Did you also use the Lumagen?


Yes, the Radiance Pro. I posted briefly about it at the time:



dlinsley said:


> My DCR is currently hanging from my RS600 (using a 2.22 aspect setting on the Radiance to get the correct aspect on screen) while I await ups.com to change the status on my RS3000. It still says estimated delivery tomorrow, but that hasn't changed since the 2nd and still only says "Ready for pickup".


It's not perfect, and with the 16:9 panel you aren't getting that much extra light, so I wouldn't have done it had I not been upgrading the projector too.

Edit: just found this post I also made (note before JVC added Anamorphic D and so 16:9 squeeze was 6% out):


dlinsley said:


> I used the DCR for about 6 weeks with my RS600 before my RS3000 arrived, and in my case it worked well. To get the most light for HDR, I'm also at about 1.42 throw. However, I already owned the Lumagen Radiance Pro and with that I could set the aspect ratio to 2.22 (16:9 * 1.25) so that the scaling was correct - though I did have to mask the sides a little. If I didn't have the Radiance or using something like an HTPC with MadVR, I don't think I would like the incorrect scaling provided solely by the projector. With a laptop and something like VLC, you can probably play some movie clips at a vertical scaling of 1.06 (to simulate 1.33 projector scaling / 1.25 DCR squeeze) to see if you think it looks fine. Some people have the DCR with the new JVC and have a 6% extra horizontal stretch for 16:9 content when purely using the projector for scaling, with some saying its ok.


----------



## raullopez1234

dlinsley said:


> Yes, the Radiance Pro. I posted briefly about it at the time:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not perfect, and with the 16:9 panel you aren't getting that much extra light, so I wouldn't have done it had I not been upgrading the projector too.
> 
> Edit: just found this post I also made (note before JVC added Anamorphic D and so 16:9 squeeze was 6% out):


What about the pixel density you had with rs600 and the dcr lens? Panamorph claims 30% added brightness using one of these paladin lenses with a 16:9 native chip , strange you didn't see added brightness , not that I don't believe you of course.


----------



## raullopez1234

The wisest thing for me to do is first buy the Lumagen Radiance pro and then decide if I really need that little bit of brightness and Pixel density from the dcr lens. 187crew003 really loves his Lumagen. I'm still holding off to see Javs review of the madvr envy to finally decide on my next upgrade.


----------



## dlinsley

raullopez1234 said:


> What about the pixel density you had with rs600 and the dcr lens? Panamorph claims 30% added brightness using one of these paladin lenses with a 16:9 native chip , strange you didn't see added brightness , not that I don't believe you of course.


There is increased density, but with a 16:9 panel you are only stretching vertically. The DCR is a 1.25x lens and so gives you about 20% extra brightness when used with a 16:9 panel (there are still pixels top and bottom that aren't used that you zoom off screen). The regular Paladin is a 1.33x lens. The DCR achieves its 42% brightness by you also using the extra pixels horizontally in the 17:9 panel (17/16 stretch) and a full 1.33x vertical stretch.


----------



## raullopez1234

dlinsley said:


> There is increased density, but with a 16:9 panel you are only stretching vertically. The DCR is a 1.25x lens and so gives you about 20% extra brightness when used with a 16:9 panel (there are still pixels top and bottom that aren't used that you zoom off screen). The regular Paladin is a 1.33x lens. The DCR achieves its 42% brightness by you also using the extra pixels horizontally in the 17:9 panel (17/16 stretch) and a full 1.33x vertical stretch.


Thanks for taking the time to do all that math and answering all my questions.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> Has anyone else had an HTP1 and looked at this setting vs the Lumagen audio only output? Be interesting to hear any opinions before I go through the rigmarole of pulling stuff out and changing connections etc around to try and track down where the problem is.


Did you get a response from Pat yet? I was curious about this, as the Trinnov separates Format from Codec in its display. Testing with the Oppo 203 media player into the Lumagen and then 18G audio out to Trinnov:

MKV with DTS-MA: Lumagen fourth debug screen shows Aud:Mch, Trinnov Format: Bitstream
CD rip: Lumagen Aud:2ch, Trinnov: PCM
DTS-CD rip: Lumagen Aud:2ch, Trinnov: Starts as PCM then auto-detects the DTS stream and switches to showing Bitstream

I think the DTS-CD especially may lean to show the right thing is being reported by the Radiance, but it's not conclusive. I'll check with Trinnov to see if it's possible to see exactly what HDMI is reporting.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I've just got a Monoprice HTP1 processor which I've hooked up to the audio-only output of the Lumagen 18G out card. With the Monoprice set to "Indicated" for the PCM format of the HDMI input (which should trust the PCM/non-PCM bit in the HDMI stream) it appears that all HD audio is no longer detected as HD Audio by the processor - it plays it as PCM - so digital noise is all that comes out. "Auto" and "biased" do work, where I guess it is muting for a while and figuring out if the stream itself is compressed before playing it, but the mutes are quite long. The assumption would be that some bit that the processor is relying on to indicate that the content shouldn't be played back as PCM is missing.
> 
> Has anyone else had an HTP1 and looked at this setting vs the Lumagen audio only output? Be interesting to hear any opinions before I go through the rigmarole of pulling stuff out and changing connections etc around to try and track down where the problem is.
> 
> If it helps any, looks like the HDMI and various boards in the unit are by MDS.


Hmm. Not sure what issue you have here. I used the HTP with the Lumagen for quite some time with no issue other than getting sound to work properly when navigating the Home Screen of the AppleTV (it would cut in and out). Outside of that, I had ZERO issues with audio from any source (used default settings in the HTP for input signal).


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Hmm. Not sure what issue you have here. I used the HTP with the Lumagen for quite some time with no issue other than getting sound to work properly when navigating the Home Screen of the AppleTV (it would cut in and out). Outside of that, I had ZERO issues with audio from any source (used default settings in the HTP for input signal).


It is EXACTLY (caps for effect   ) that I was looking to improve. The AppleTV is a PCM only device (well, excluding MAT) and there are settings if you enable Advanced settings on the HTP web interface that let you change the way the detection works for PCM vs non-PCM content, which appears to be the root cause of missing the beginning of bits of audio on the AppleTV. It appears the HTP1 in auto mode is (perhaps unduly, perhaps rightly) pessimistic about how likely it is to be being fed something that claims to be PCM, isn't; and this even extends to going from mute to PCM and between different numbers of channels in PCM.

When you use one of the options that is supposed to help in this respect (PCM to Indicated, which is supposed to trust what the HDMI says is the format) then with the Lumagen in circuit HD audio doesn't decode, it plays back as PCM, which is a noisy affair. There is another option (biased) which tips the balance of the auto detect in PCM's favour and it should work, though it all seems still a bit sluggish..

It seems at the very least there is some difference of opinion as to how all this should work in a well mannered world. Monoprice point out in their manual (the updated one that you can download from the unit via the webUI, not the web one) that some devices don't work with this, causing exactly this issue (HD audio played as PCM), the implication in their text being that those devices are not signalling properly. Jury's out on that for me for sure as I have a long experience of Lumagen doing the right thing and going above and beyond to fix quirks, but it is at the least an interesting data point that all the HD audio sources I have work with the Monoprice set to "Indicated" for the PCM format when connected direct to the Monoprice, but none of them work when connected to the Lumagen and then to the Monoprice via Lumagen HD audio out. Of course it is possible that the Lumagen is in fact signalling at some point and the Monoprice misses it, or something else. No real idea at the moment, collecting info.

When you had the HTP1 in your system, did you try any of the advanced input options to try and improve this aspect of the performance?


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Did you get a response from Pat yet? I was curious about this, as the Trinnov separates Format from Codec in its display. Testing with the Oppo 203 media player into the Lumagen and then 18G audio out to Trinnov:
> 
> MKV with DTS-MA: Lumagen fourth debug screen shows Aud:Mch, Trinnov Format: Bitstream
> CD rip: Lumagen Aud:2ch, Trinnov: PCM
> DTS-CD rip: Lumagen Aud:2ch, Trinnov: Starts as PCM then auto-detects the DTS stream and switches to showing Bitstream
> 
> I think the DTS-CD especially may lean to show the right thing is being reported by the Radiance, but it's not conclusive. I'll check with Trinnov to see if it's possible to see exactly what HDMI is reporting.


DTS CDs are I believe the one reason you really need the pesimism about whether the audio format is truly PCM. Red book I recall has no way of indicating a CD's content isn't PCM, and so you have to parse the signal and spot that it isn't PCM after all and actually is DTS. I recall they used to be a bit of a bain on one of the products I used to be involved with - audio servers.

I did ping support a mail and heard back from Jim and said Pat would be in touch. I think Trinnov use a few boards from the same source as the HTP1 - MDS for the HDMI boards? Though I'm sure much of the rest will be totally different.

If I leave the Monoprice in Auto it "works" fine, it's just slow to switch audio formats and you often miss the beginning of stuff, which I find a frustration. Arguably, a better solution than fiddling with relying on the PCM / non-PCM flag (which would break for your DTS CD for sure, it would always play as PCM with such a setting enabled) would be for Monoprice to improve on the detection stuff, which I'm sure is possible. It does feel worse in operation in that respect (slower, mutes more at the beginning of content) than pretty much every other AVR I've had.

The rest of the package is very compelling though.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> DTS CDs are I believe the one reason you really need the pesimism about whether the audio format is truly PCM.


Yes, I added that for that reason to show that what what happening if the signaling was different from the stream. I'll check what the AppleTV is doing, since that is what you are using.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Yes, I added that for that reason to show that what what happening if the signaling was different from the stream. I'll check what the AppleTV is doing, since that is what you are using.


It looks for sure like your Trinnov is operating in an analysis mode if it works out DTS CDs by itself.

Ignoring the Lumagen now... as the issue really is as a result of trying to work around some behaviour of the HTP1. On the HTP1 the obvious issue is the menu sounds / navigational clicks if you have them enabled on the AppleTV. In Auto you miss most of them, with it clicking back in occasionally, catching the tail end of one effect or other. Biased seems to play them mostly, indicated seems to play them all.

Out of interest, If you enable the navigational clicks and UI sound effects on the AppleTV, do you hear them all? Or does the Trinnov mute for periods that results in missing some?
This is a little off-topic though to be honest  (even more off topic; I never have the navigational sounds enabled, just noticed they pan around the screen in stereo when on the main menu! That's Apple for you...)


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> It looks for sure like your Trinnov is operating in an analysis mode if it works out DTS CDs by itself.
> 
> Ignoring the Lumagen now... as the issue really is as a result of trying to work around some behaviour of the HTP1. On the HTP1 the obvious issue is the menu sounds / navigational clicks if you have them enabled on the AppleTV. In Auto you miss most of them, with it clicking back in occasionally, catching the tail end of one effect or other. Biased seems to play them mostly, indicated seems to play them all.
> 
> Out of interest, If you enable the navigational clicks and UI sound effects on the AppleTV, do you hear them all? Or does the Trinnov mute for periods that results in missing some?
> This is a little off-topic though to be honest  (even more off topic; I never have the navigational sounds enabled, just noticed they pan around the screen in stereo when on the main menu! That's Apple for you...)


I hear all the clicks and beeps in the Apple menu with my Trinnov (I have the Harman SDP75, which is the same as the Altitude 32), unlike the HTP. The HTP was ONLY an issue with the Apple home menu, and I honestly just didn't care as it was only for moving around the menus (it never effected any audio with content playback from the AppleTV). The Trinnov has a delay (and usually a couple hiccups) synching to audio, but so did the HTP if I remember. Most AVPs I've used have this as they lock on to varying degrees. The Anthem was faster than the Trinnov though.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I hear all the clicks and beeps in the Apple menu with my Trinnov (I have the Harman SDP75, which is the same as the Altitude 32), unlike the HTP. The HTP was ONLY an issue with the Apple home menu, and I honestly just didn't care as it was only for moving around the menus (it never effected any audio with content playback from the AppleTV).


I think it's particularly notable if you have the clicks enabled, but as I say I don't. I first noticed that the HTP was actually much more sluggish to start audio playout than my previous processor (NAD T758v3 DIRAC AVR). That was a bit better than my previous unit, Arcam AVR550. Denons and Onkyos I've had seem to be better still usually.



Kris Deering said:


> The Trinnov has a delay (and usually a couple hiccups) synching to audio, but so did the HTP if I remember.


We're up to two issues now...  



Kris Deering said:


> The Anthem was faster than the Trinnov though.


There does seem to be quite a variation on this between how well various bits of kit do in this respect, and having had a few bits of kit through here I'm just trying to make the HTP1 as good as possible, it has options that allow the performance there to be notably improved, it's just odd that one of the options barfs on the Lumagen's output but not on the sources hooked up direct. It didn't used to be so bad when you'd watch a movie all the way through including the title sequence etc, but often these days with streaming you're straight in and that time can be really annoying missing the first few seconds.


----------



## jrp

Concerning the next update with even more improvement for the already spectacular DTM:

We are close to the next big release.

This release improves the "back and forth" scenes cuts which were difficult. Pat said the second time the same scene shows in a number of the cases actually _does have_ different levels. The DTM was over emphasizing the difference, but Pat has found ways to adjust the DTM algorithm to keep the back and forth scenes as close as possible.

There were also a few scenes that had other issues. One type of scene I know about had enough areas with bright objects to fool our zone-based analysis. Pat redesigned the zone analysis, which improved these scenes.

I just discussed timeframe for the next release with Patrick. He said he is working on a couple additional scenes and thinks we can post the next release this weekend.

======

Usage comment for the upcoming release:

As we have seen in the past changing the algorithms can also change the recommended defaults. Let me first say that the current recommendations (Max Light = 4 to 6 times measured light in nits, Dyn Pad = 2, Low-ratio = 31) still work well. That said, I am planning to change my settings slightly based on viewing the results of DTM for this upcoming release.

Max Light: I have been at 5x (400 for a measured max of 78 nits) for our Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. With the new release I prefer setting Max Light 6x measured max. This helped with some bright details (e.g. Mad Max: Fury Road sand storm scene explosions).

Dyn Pad: We changed to a recommendation of 2 (from 5 to 6) a while back. This was due to changes in the algorithm allowing the scene headroom to be reduced. The effect of Dyn Pad changes slightly in the upcoming release. In my viewing, IMO the Dyn Pad of 2 seems to reduce the headroom slightly from the previous release. Patrick said there were not intentional changes to the Dyn Pad headroom, but he said he did change the MaxCLL effect on calculations He said this could affect Dyn Pad. Dyn Pad of 2 still looks great for most scenes but one scene I found where I wanted a higher Dyn Pad was "The Meg" in the "Hatch scene" with the red haze in the hatch (this is in teh first couple minutes of the movie). For this scene I ended up preferring Dyn Pad = 5. I also found I preferred Dyn Pad = 5 for Mad Max, and for several other title. The difference in scene brightness between 2 nd 5 seems less to me, and I saw more bright detail changing Dyn Pad to 5.

I should note that I already have discussed this with Pro owners using the current release and suggested Dyn Pad = 5 in some cases. So this is not entirely new. Dyn Pad remains a trade-off between higher scene brightness (=2) and more detail in very bright objects (=5). This has not changed, but my preference has. I am currently thinking I will set Dyn Pad = 5 for the upcoming release. So, my recommendation is try 2, 3, 4, and 5 for Dyn Pad over a lot of material and then select your preference.

I am not changing Low Ratio or DeSat settings for this new release.

I hope this is helpful to everyone and that I have not opened a can of worms as my posts sometimes do.


----------



## bobof

@jrp can't wait to get the update on, looking forward to it. Thanks for the continued improvements! 



bobof said:


> I've just got a Monoprice HTP1 processor which I've hooked up to the audio-only output of the Lumagen 18G out card. With the Monoprice set to "Indicated" for the PCM format of the HDMI input (which should trust the PCM/non-PCM bit in the HDMI stream) it appears that all HD audio is no longer detected as HD Audio by the processor - it plays it as PCM - so digital noise is all that comes out. "Auto" and "biased" do work, where I guess it is muting for a while and figuring out if the stream itself is compressed before playing it, but the mutes are quite long. The assumption would be that some bit that the processor is relying on to indicate that the content shouldn't be played back as PCM is missing.


To anyone wondering about the issues with the Monoprice HTP1 - I've seen at least one way to break the audio with "indicated" mode without the Lumagen in circuit (well, just on the video output, so unlikely to affect audio) using the AppleTV and shield, though it's a bit different breakage, so still some more testing required there. Not very clear what is going on at the moment. For now it seems like "Biased" mode is perhaps the best if you want fast switching.

Is there anyone else on here using the HTP1 with a Lumagen, or used one and got rid? I'm only a few days in so interested to hear any other opinions on it.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Concerning the next update with even more improvement for the already spectacular DTM:
> 
> We are close to the next big release.
> 
> This release improves the "back and forth" scenes cuts which were difficult. Pat said the second time the same scene shows in a number of the cases actually _does have_ different levels. The DTM was over emphasizing the difference, but Pat has found ways to adjust the DTM algorithm to keep the back and forth scenes as close as possible.
> 
> There were also a few scenes that had other issues. One type of scene I know about had enough areas with bright objects to fool our zone-based analysis. Pat redesigned the zone analysis, which improved these scenes.
> 
> I just discussed timeframe for the next release with Patrick. He said he is working on a couple additional scenes and thinks we can post the next release this weekend.
> 
> ======
> 
> Usage comment for the upcoming release:
> 
> As we have seen in the past changing the algorithms can also change the recommended defaults. Let me first say that the current recommendations (Max Light = 4 to 6 times measured light in nits, Dyn Pad = 2, Low-ratio = 31) still work well. That said, I am planning to change my settings slightly based on viewing the results of DTM for this upcoming release.
> 
> Max Light: I have been at 5x (400 for a measured max of 78 nits) for our Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. With the new release I prefer setting Max Light 6x measured max. This helped with some bright details (e.g. Mad Max: Fury Road sand storm scene explosions).
> 
> Dyn Pad: We changed to a recommendation of 2 (from 5 to 6) a while back. This was due to changes in the algorithm allowing the scene headroom to be reduced. The effect of Dyn Pad changes slightly in the upcoming release. In my viewing, IMO the Dyn Pad of 2 seems to reduce the headroom slightly from the previous release. Patrick said there were not intentional changes to the Dyn Pad headroom, but he said he did change the MaxCLL effect on calculations He said this could affect Dyn Pad. Dyn Pad of 2 still looks great for most scenes but one scene I found where I wanted a higher Dyn Pad was "The Meg" in the "Hatch scene" with the red haze in the hatch (this is in teh first couple minutes of the movie). For this scene I ended up preferring Dyn Pad = 5. I also found I preferred Dyn Pad = 5 for Mad Max, and for several other title. The difference in scene brightness between 2 nd 5 seems less to me, and I saw more bright detail changing Dyn Pad to 5.
> 
> I should note that I already have discussed this with Pro owners using the current release and suggested Dyn Pad = 5 in some cases. So this is not entirely new. Dyn Pad remains a trade-off between higher scene brightness (=2) and more detail in very bright objects (=5). This has not changed, but my preference has. I am currently thinking I will set Dyn Pad = 5 for the upcoming release. So, my recommendation is try 2, 3, 4, and 5 for Dyn Pad over a lot of material and then select your preference.
> 
> I am not changing Low Ratio or DeSat settings for this new release.
> 
> I hope this is helpful to everyone and that I have not opened a can of worms as my posts sometimes do.


Thanks Jim...this is awesome and exciting news. Looking forward to the release. Not a "can of worms", but I do have a couple follow-up questions:

1) Max Light - for someone like me who doesn't know his measured nits, can you re-explain, when using a movie like The Meg, exactly what scene I should use as a reference, and how I should strive to make the image look, when adjusting max light?

2) Dyn Pad - I realize this entire DTM solution has a lot of variability across systems. And I realize that preference plays a lot into it as well. Would you suggest DPad=5 as the best "default" going forward? I realize you explained this above; I guess I'm asking "what value for DPad would be closest to "reference?" (again, taking into account that reference in this case could be hard to pin down).

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## bjorg

Hmm, I'm running into an odd issue. When I connect the USB cable, I cannot create a backup of my Radiance Pro. I tried all ports explicitly (although I know to check _Device Manager_) and even tried lower baud rates. Every time I got an error message. Note, I'm running Windows 10.

Making matters worse: I CAN connect directly using the RS-232 protocol over the USB cable and it seems to be working. I'm wondering if I accidentally screwed up some settings. Any suggestions?


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> Max Light: I have been at 5x (400 for a measured max of 78 nits) for our Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. With the new release I prefer setting Max Light 6x measured max. This helped with some bright details (e.g. Mad Max: Fury Road sand storm scene explosions).


Any plans to change the Max Light setting to use real measured nits? Then you could change the multiplier automatically in firmware(if needed) or offer that selection as a "slider" to adjust to taste.

Also I think real nits should have a value at least in deciding how low nit content is to be tonemapped(or not).


----------



## PeterLarsson

After calibration of my Sony VW790 i got the following results: constant scope zoom 130” (304 cm * 129 cm) laser on 35% have 15 fL = 51,4 nits and 85% 19,5 fL = 66,8 nits. This was a bit lower than expected.

My initial changes so far and also based on Jims post the other day was to change to 6X nits in Max light to 400 and DynPad to 5.
I am also considering ratio to match 2X measured nits too which should give 130ish.

When I changed dynpad to 5 the brighter scenes look better and not too bright. I will go through the suggested scenes in the Meg and Mad Max to really set the really bright scenes on a good level too. Any suggestions?


----------



## Kris Deering

PeterLarsson said:


> After calibration of my Sony VW790 i got the following results: constant scope zoom 130” (304 cm * 129 cm) laser on 35% have 15 fL = 51,4 nits and 85% 19,5 fL = 66,8 nits. This was a bit lower than expected.
> 
> My initial changes so far and also based on Jims post the other day was to change to 6X nits in Max light to 400 and DynPad to 5.
> I am also considering ratio to match 2X measured nits too which should give 130ish.
> 
> When I changed dynpad to 5 the brighter scenes look better and not too bright. I will go through the suggested scenes in the Meg and Mad Max to really set the really bright scenes on a good level too. Any suggestions?


seems extremely low output for white point with that size screen and projector. What screen material is it?


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## PeterLarsson

That was my first reaction too. Screen research Clearpix 4 acoustic fabric


----------



## blake

PeterLarsson said:


> After calibration of my Sony VW790 i got the following results: constant scope zoom 130” (304 cm * 129 cm) laser on 35% have 15 fL = 51,4 nits and 85% 19,5 fL = 66,8 nits. This was a bit lower than expected.
> 
> My initial changes so far and also based on Jims post the other day was to change to 6X nits in Max light to 400 and DynPad to 5.
> I am also considering ratio to match 2X measured nits too which should give 130ish.
> 
> When I changed dynpad to 5 the brighter scenes look better and not too bright. I will go through the suggested scenes in the Meg and Mad Max to really set the really bright scenes on a good level too. Any suggestions?


What are you using to measure your luminance ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PeterLarsson

My calibrator is very experienced so it is not my stuff and I actaully dont know.


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## stefanop

PeterLarsson said:


> That was my first reaction too. Screen research Clearpix 4 acoustic fabric


Same screen material and size (just a little bit larger) with a 5000ES nits are a bit higher with 26% rec709 and 70% 2020 (my calibrator told me 87 if I remember correctly, that was two years ago). So I think your data are correct.


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## bobof

Not having Sony experience, but it seems to be an odd scaling of the laser level control to only gain +25% light going from 35% to 85% laser level (+140%!). Is that really all the difference the laser level control makes?

Maybe your calibrator has reserved the above white 235-255 region (IMHO that would be a mistake, but some calibrators do it), or maybe they're referring to the white level for diffuse white in HDR mode. Or is something else in play reducing light level, like an iris?


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## PeterLarsson

I was a bitt puzzled by that fact as well. Posted my results in the Sony Thread so let us get some feedback there and see.


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## woofer

bobof said:


> but it seems to be an odd scaling of the laser level control to only gain +25% light going from 35% to 85% laser level (+140%!). Is that really all the difference the laser level control makes?



Just remember the Sony,s laser output level isnt say 0% ( Off) to 100% ( FULL Power )....... the range you have is 0% ( which is in fact something around 55% ) to 100% ( which is in fact something around 90%) 

These figures are just approx , but you get the idea.......that is why on initial release the 760ES could in fact be to bright on small screens because even when you had the Laser output on something like 10% it was in fact much much higher.

You only actually have around 40% range of adjustment ( approx) .


----------



## 187crew003

PeterLarsson said:


> After calibration of my Sony VW790 i got the following results: constant scope zoom 130” (304 cm * 129 cm) laser on 35% have 15 fL = 51,4 nits and 85% 19,5 fL = 66,8 nits. This was a bit lower than expected.
> 
> My initial changes so far and also based on Jims post the other day was to change to 6X nits in Max light to 400 and DynPad to 5.
> I am also considering ratio to match 2X measured nits too which should give 130ish.
> 
> When I changed dynpad to 5 the brighter scenes look better and not too bright. I will go through the suggested scenes in the Meg and Mad Max to really set the really bright scenes on a good level too. Any suggestions?


Arent these suggestions for when the new firmware comes out?


----------



## giomania

187crew003 said:


> Arent these suggestions for when the new firmware comes out?


Yes they are.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## PeterLarsson

No, to get more details in bright secens dynPad should be increased already now. And also increasing the maxlight is debated 4-5X officially, but there is nothing that is againt 6x that I currently try out.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Thanks Jim...this is awesome and exciting news. Looking forward to the release. Not a "can of worms", but I do have a couple follow-up questions:
> 
> 1) Max Light - for someone like me who doesn't know his measured nits, can you re-explain, when using a movie like The Meg, exactly what scene I should use as a reference, and how I should strive to make the image look, when adjusting max light?
> 
> 2) Dyn Pad - I realize this entire DTM solution has a lot of variability across systems. And I realize that preference plays a lot into it as well. Would you suggest DPad=5 as the best "default" going forward? I realize you explained this above; I guess I'm asking "what value for DPad would be closest to "reference?" (again, taking into account that reference in this case could be hard to pin down).


1) I looked at "The Meg" timestamp and I should have said 1:08:30 (ish) to 1:09:00 (ish). In this scene people are swimming around and on an overturned boat. I adjust to trade off more brightness (lower Dyn Pad and/or lower Max Light), versus more color saturation in the faces (higher Dyn Pad and/or higher Max Light). You want the faces to look natural while preserving as much brightness as you can.

2) If you have a bright image (say 100 nits of more) then, yes, I think Dyn Pad of 5 is good. If on the other hand you are lower, say, in the 60 nit range (ish), then you might want the brightness a lower Dyn Pad give you and live with the occasional scene that shows some clipping. Dyn Pad = 2 works very well for the vast majority of scenes. However, I am tending toward 5 to not notice any significant clipping in any scene. I am watching with dyn Pad = 5, Max Light = 500, Low Ratio = 31 (sets Max Light for dark scenes), using mid-laser from our Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 on a 168 inch diagonal Stewart Studiotek 130 and like the brightness level just fine.

When I look at brightness I do not compare by changing brightness (e.g. high-laser to mid-laser). Rather I settle in and watch content. Then I decide, "is the detail there," and "does a sun burst look really bright," etc. Eyes are _very_ adaptive to brightness level and I am surprised that I sometimes have to look away going from a dark to bright scene for my eye to adapt even with only 78 nits (all be it with a very large viewing angle at 1X screen width which covers most of my visual field of view).


----------



## docrog

I find that the most problematic scene is properly display of the setting(?) sun in the demo section at timestamp 1:40-1:46 on the Spears & Muncil UHD HDR disc when watching the demo footage at 10,000 BT2020. My setup is a JVC NX7 projected on a 127" 16:9 StudioTek 130 G4 screen in high lamp mode. Depending on Max Light & D-Pad, the sun on the far right can look anywhere from a poorly defined round orangish (clipping) glow to quite pale and I'm not sure what's the intended appearance. Any thoughts (including best RP settings) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## bjorg

I'm working on an network interface for Lumagen Radiance Pro running on Raspberry Pi 4 that connects via the USB port. The idea is to provide access over network to some of the Radiance Pro features. For example, the ability to rename labels for inputs, custom modes, CMS, and styles.

Two questions:

First, is there interest in this application beyond myself. 

Second, what capabilities would you like to be able to access over the network? Please don't say firmware upgrade! I'd love that too, but that is above my paygrade! 🤣

The app works using the RS-232 protocol. Check out Lumagen Tech Tip 11 for details.


----------



## DenverMDM

New update is out! Gonna check it out with Blade 4K


----------



## jrp

We just posted the new release (120320).

Once again Patrick has done a great job on improvements to DTM. There are a couple other improvement as well.

Let us know what you think.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I find that the most problematic scene is properly display of the setting(?) sun in the demo section at timestamp 1:40-1:46 on the Spears & Muncil UHD HDR disc when watching the demo footage at 10,000 BT2020. My setup is a JVC NX7 projected on a 127" 16:9 StudioTek 130 G4 screen in high lamp mode. Depending on Max Light & D-Pad, the sun on the far right can look anywhere from a poorly defined round orangish (clipping) glow to quite pale and I'm not sure what's the intended appearance. Any thoughts (including best RP settings) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


What I would suggest is not setup your tone map to work well with a scene designed for 10,000 nits with extreme APL and color saturation that applies to less than .0000000000001% of content you'll ever watch. Why set up the tone map to possibly compromise the majority of what you watch for a test case that is essentially non-existent in real world content?


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I'm working on an network interface for Lumagen Radiance Pro running on Raspberry Pi 4 that connects via the USB port. The idea is to provide access over network to some of the Radiance Pro features. For example, the ability to rename labels for inputs, custom modes, CMS, and styles.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> First, is there interest in this application beyond myself.
> 
> Second, what capabilities would you like to be able to access over the network? Please don't say firmware upgrade! I'd love that too, but that is above my paygrade! 🤣
> 
> The app works using the RS-232 protocol. Check out Lumagen Tech Tip 11 for details.


That would be awesome. I've been meaning to try and do more with the scripting - I currently use an Rpi3 for monitoring the aspect ratio and HDR format, and also for putting an OSD on the Lumagen for my processors that don't have one or I'm not running video through.

Features I'd really like:
Trigger some action on input format and aspect ratio changes - in my case I use this to control either my projector screen masks (aspect) or projector user modes (HDR format). It could be as simple as to pass an argument to a script, for example. Or maybe just provide access to the events on a socket so users can create their own scripts.
Be able to set up the OSD overlay with some information being fed from a script / plugin. 
Quick web control of the pattern generator.
Some rolling timestamped log of events received from the Lumagen can be useful for diagnostics
It would be nice to be able to upload LUTs too, that could allow easy experimentation with free SW like ArgyllCMS/Displaycal. 
The list goes on...!


----------



## 187crew003

jrp said:


> We just posted the new release (120320).
> 
> Once again Patrick has done a great job on improvements to DTM. There are a couple other improvement as well.
> 
> Let us know what you think.


Could you elaborate what the new NLS feature is/does?


----------



## FenceMan

Need help with audio setup. With my new Arcam if I go direct to reciever I get Atmos but if I run through the Lumagen (I have 4446) I only get True HD? I have my projector to output 4 and output 1 going to the Arcam. I have tried the 0943 to enable all common formats but still the Lumagen doesn't want to pass Atmos? I have tried all of the Audio EDID settings but none seem to get it to report Atmos to the receiver though I know Atmos is present since bypassing Lumagen works.


----------



## A7mad78

I am using barco balder and I found max light at 500 and dpad at 6 and low at 31 give me the best blind for viewing I made test at the meg at 1:13 where I have clip in red and I found in the background at dpad at 6 less clip than 5 which is good but the more I go the less clip but 6 is ok for balance i will give me self view in both 5&6 and will see which but I think I am happy with 6 

Thx @jrp for the great work  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KarlKlammer

bjorg said:


> Second, what capabilities would you like to be able to access over the network?


Well, I could think of a few capabilities...


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> What I would suggest is not setup your tone map to work well with a scene designed for 10,000 nits with extreme APL and color saturation that applies to less than .0000000000001% of content you'll ever watch. Why set up the tone map to possibly compromise the majority of what you watch for a test case that is essentially non-existent in real world content?


Thanks for responding, Kris. Irrespective of how the calibrator "sets up" tone mapping, it had been my understanding that one typically chooses the 10K level to view the S&M disc's demo content, allowing the RP to subsequently appropriately tone map for content which reaches that rarefied level of saturation (for example, display of bright sunlight). If that's not the case, which of the S&M BT2020 demo content levels is recommended for viewing?


----------



## PeterLarsson

FenceMan said:


> Need help with audio setup. With my new Arcam if I go direct to reciever I get Atmos but if I run through the Lumagen (I have 4446) I only get True HD? I have my projector to output 4 and output 1 going to the Arcam. I have tried the 0943 to enable all common formats but still the Lumagen doesn't want to pass Atmos? I have tried all of the Audio EDID settings but none seem to get it to report Atmos to the receiver though I know Atmos is present since bypassing Lumagen works.


Well - there are two outputs, one audio Only and one video/audio. I Walter the AVR osd to i actually use the 2nd output to my AVR that send the signal to processor. I also had som problem to get atmos work - i just changed to ”all audio” via using menu + 0943. Then it work!


----------



## bjorg

KarlKlammer said:


> Well, I could think of a few capabilities...
> 
> View attachment 3066207


Oh!!! Was ist das?


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> That would be awesome. I've been meaning to try and do more with the scripting - I currently use an Rpi3 for monitoring the aspect ratio and HDR format, and also for putting an OSD on the Lumagen for my processors that don't have one or I'm not running video through.
> 
> Features I'd really like:
> Trigger some action on input format and aspect ratio changes - in my case I use this to control either my projector screen masks (aspect) or projector user modes (HDR format). It could be as simple as to pass an argument to a script, for example. Or maybe just provide access to the events on a socket so users can create their own scripts.
> Be able to set up the OSD overlay with some information being fed from a script / plugin.
> Quick web control of the pattern generator.
> Some rolling timestamped log of events received from the Lumagen can be useful for diagnostics
> It would be nice to be able to upload LUTs too, that could allow easy experimentation with free SW like ArgyllCMS/Displaycal.
> The list goes on...!


That's a good list! Do you have the code/scripts somewhere that you use with Rpi3?


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Guys, how do you watch content which have scenes with different aspect ratio e.g. Nolan movies where some scenes are IMAX whereas others are widescreen like 2.20? 
Do you let Lumagen adjust on the fly or use fixed setting like fixed height and watch with variable width?

Thanks


----------



## PeterLarsson

Unfortunately i let Lumagen steer that yesterday. Of I would watch again I would det go for 16:9 sticky. Thousands of aspect ratio changes. I really dont get the point - but that is another question.


----------



## loggeo

KarlKlammer said:


> Well, I could think of a few capabilities...
> 
> View attachment 3066207


Ok, Karl! You have our attention!


----------



## cappy1

jrp said:


> We just posted the new release (120320).
> 
> Once again Patrick has done a great job on improvements to DTM. There are a couple other improvement as well.
> 
> Let us know what you think.


Loaded 120320. DynPad default still showing "2"; update notes say... "default setting for DTM dynamic pad is now 5 rather than 2.


----------



## Mike_WI

KarlKlammer said:


> Well, I could think of a few capabilities...
> 
> View attachment 3066207


A Radiance app would be cool


----------



## Gordon Fraser

cappy1 said:


> Loaded 120320. DynPad default still showing "2"; update notes say... "default setting for DTM dynamic pad is now 5 rather than 2.


You need to reset the HDR settings to default....the new firmware will not automatically alter your previous settings.


----------



## clausdk

Will updating reset settings?


----------



## bobof

clausdk said:


> Will updating reset settings?


No, settings will be kept.
If you are paranoid you can backup your config before updating, but I've never yet had to reset my config after updating.


----------



## jrp

187crew003 said:


> Could you elaborate what the new NLS feature is/does?


NLS stands for Non-Linear-Stretch.

[EDIT: BTW: NLS has been in all Lumagen processors, including the Vision series, since 2005 (and maybe earlier). So this is a very early feature, rather than a new feature]

Many people want to fill their 2.40 or 2.35 screen with 16:9 source content for a more cinematic effect. You can do a horizontal linear stretch of 16:9 content by about 33% to fill a 2.35 screen. However, this is very obvious and few consider it acceptable.

What all Radiance and Radiance Pro models allow you to do is to use the Lumagen NLS to fill the 2.35 or 2.40 screen but stretch less in the middle and more on the sides. Since most content has a visual focal point in the middle of the screen this means you have less stretch where you are looking, and so less noticeable stretching.

The Lumagen NLS allows you to choose to crop (or not) some off the top and bottom, select the width of the linear-stretch middle section, and the amount of stretch in the middle section. Current default are 6% top crop, 2% bottom crop, 35% of the screen width as the middle section width, and an 18% stretch in the middle section. You can change these to your preference. For example, for digital sports content at HD and UHD, there are often information banners at the very top and the very bottom. To see this the top and bottom crop need to be reduced from the default values.

There is also a "pillar box" option. This is for 4:3 content in a 16:9 source raster. This is often used for older 4:3 content transmitted on a 16:9 HD channel. When selected the Radiance or Radiance Pro treats the content as 4:3 with pillar-box side bars. It crops the side bars and then does NLS on the 4:3 content to 16:9.

To use NLS you first select the source aspect (e.g. 4:3,16:9) and then press NLS. Note that 4:3 content is stretched only to 16:9.

Each source aspect has its own NLS settings. You can use NLS to stretch, say, 2.0 content to 2.40, but you will need to change the default center stretch since 18% for this case is more than needed, since this could be done with a 20% linear stretch. Allow me to suggest you set the center stretch to 10% stretch for 2.0 to 2.4. For 2.2 stretch to 2.4, you would need only a 9% linear stretch, so using a 4% to 5% center section stretch would be hard to even notice the change.

====

There are other tricks you can use to cover more of your 2.40 screen, while not doing any non-linear stretching.

One example is to use the "Output aspect per input aspect" feature in the Style menu under Aspect. As an experiment, for a time I set the output aspect to 2.2 on our 2.4 screen when the source aspect is 16:9. This adds a 9% horizontal stretch to 16:9 content, which to most people, for real content, is not noticeable, or at least not objectionable. You could also set the output aspect to 2.2 for 2.0 and 2.2 content. This 9% horizontal stretch fills a 2.4 screen for 2.2 content, and nearly does so for 2.0 content.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> No, settings will be kept.
> If you are paranoid you can backup your config before updating, but I've never yet had to reset my config after updating.


Don't miss the comma in bobof's reply 

In other words, settings are not changed by an update.

As bobof also suggests using the config reader on our support page [EDIT: to create a backup file] is a good idea. And this would also be great to have should your unit go down.


----------



## 187crew003

jrp said:


> NLS stands for Non-Linear-Stretch.
> 
> [EDIT: BTW: NLS has been in all Lumagen processors, including the Vision series, since 2005 (and maybe earlier). So this is a very early feature, rather than a new feature]
> 
> Many people want to fill their 2.40 or 2.35 screen with 16:9 source content for a more cinematic effect. You can do a horizontal linear stretch of 16:9 content by about 33% to fill a 2.35 screen. However, this is very obvious and few consider it acceptable.
> 
> What all Radiance and Radiance Pro models allow you to do is to use the Lumagen NLS to fill the 2.35 or 2.40 screen but stretch less in the middle and more on the sides. Since most content has a visual focal point in the middle of the screen this means you have less stretch where you are looking, and so less noticeable stretching.
> 
> The Lumagen NLS allows you to choose to crop (or not) some off the top and bottom, select the width of the linear-stretch middle section, and the amount of stretch in the middle section. Current default are 6% top crop, 2% bottom crop, 35% of the screen width as the middle section width, and an 18% stretch in the middle section. You can change these to your preference. For example, for digital sports content at HD and UHD, there are often information banners at the very top and the very bottom. To see this the top and bottom crop need to be reduced from the default values.
> 
> There is also a "pillar box" option. This is for 4:3 content in a 16:9 source raster. This is often used for older 4:3 content transmitted on a 16:9 HD channel. When selected the Radiance or Radiance Pro treats the content as 4:3 with pillar-box side bars. It crops the side bars and then does NLS on the 4:3 content to 16:9.
> 
> To use NLS you first select the source aspect (e.g. 4:3,16:9) and then press NLS. Note that 4:3 content is stretched only to 16:9.
> 
> Each source aspect has its own NLS settings. You can use NLS to stretch, say, 2.0 content to 2.40, but you will need to change the default center stretch since 18% for this case is more than needed, since this could be done with a 20% linear stretch. Allow me to suggest you set the center stretch to 10% stretch for 2.0 to 2.4. For 2.2 stretch to 2.4, you would need only a 9% linear stretch, so using a 4% to 5% center section stretch would be hard to even notice the change.
> 
> ====
> 
> There are other tricks you can use to cover more of your 2.40 screen, while not doing any non-linear stretching.
> 
> One example is to use the "Output aspect per input aspect" feature in the Style menu under Aspect. As an experiment, for a time I set the output aspect to 2.2 on our 2.4 screen when the source aspect is 16:9. This adds a 9% horizontal stretch to 16:9 content, which to most people, for real content, is not noticeable, or at least not objectionable. You could also set the output aspect to 2.2 for 2.0 and 2.2 content. This 9% horizontal stretch fills a 2.4 screen for 2.2 content, and nearly does so for 2.0 content.


While I appreciate the lengthy reply. I was asking what the “new” feature in the firmware notes for NLS override are exactly lol. Sorry I couldn’t be more clear with my question

“*Added ability for 'NLS' selection to be sticky when using auto aspect with 'Sticky aspect override' enabled.”*


----------



## Surge2018

cappy1 said:


> Loaded 120320. DynPad default still showing "2"; update notes say... "default setting for DTM dynamic pad is now 5 rather than 2.


So if we had DynPad at 2 before the update, should we change it to 5? Won’t this make the image darker?


----------



## Surge2018

PeterLarsson said:


> After calibration of my Sony VW790 i got the following results: constant scope zoom 130” (304 cm * 129 cm) laser on 35% have 15 fL = 51,4 nits and 85% 19,5 fL = 66,8 nits. This was a bit lower than expected.
> 
> My initial changes so far and also based on Jims post the other day was to change to 6X nits in Max light to 400 and DynPad to 5.
> I am also considering ratio to match 2X measured nits too which should give 130ish.
> 
> When I changed dynpad to 5 the brighter scenes look better and not too bright. I will go through the suggested scenes in the Meg and Mad Max to really set the really bright scenes on a good level too. Any suggestions?


For your screen size and projector, you should be running 100% laser output for HDR. No question.
That’s what I’m doing on my Sony 995, and my screen is only 100” with a 0.9 gain and 10ft throw Distance. MaxLight is 1070, DynPad was 2, but I will try 5 with the new firmware. Gamma is also important to consider. I’m at 2.6, but this is also room specific.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Can Lumagen be controlled with Logitech Harmony? Is it listed in the database?


----------



## Karl Maga

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Can Lumagen be controlled with Logitech Harmony? Is it listed in the database?


It’s there, listed as “Lumagen AV Switch”. It works quite well.


----------



## dlinsley

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Can Lumagen be controlled with Logitech Harmony? Is it listed in the database?





Karl Maga said:


> It’s there, listed as “Lumagen AV Switch”. It works quite well.


A good tip I learnt here was to assign the Radiance Ok button to one of the color buttons in your Activities to avoid needing to switch to Devices->Lumagen regularly. I have Red set to Mem A, Green Mem B and Blue the Ok button so I can quickly see the input/output status. I've not needed it for a while, but a button (touch screeen on one of the color buttons) for "Fix Display" that macros Alt+Prev has been handy too.


----------



## dlinsley

FenceMan said:


> Need help with audio setup. With my new Arcam if I go direct to reciever I get Atmos but if I run through the Lumagen (I have 4446) I only get True HD? I have my projector to output 4 and output 1 going to the Arcam. I have tried the 0943 to enable all common formats but still the Lumagen doesn't want to pass Atmos? I have tried all of the Audio EDID settings but none seem to get it to report Atmos to the receiver though I know Atmos is present since bypassing Lumagen works.


Which Arcam? I've had no issues with the AV40, though I've not had it in the chain since firmware 1.42 came out (I switched to Trinnov). I did disable "Display Audio" in the Arcam. I was using both (not at the same time) the video+audio and audio only 18G outputs.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bjorg said:


> Oh!!! Was ist das?





loggeo said:


> Ok, Karl! You have our attention!





Mike_WI said:


> A Radiance app would be cool


This is a tool I wrote last year. Sorry it is not an app  just a windows application. It connects via RS232. And in my case, I have the Radiance Pro connected to an RS232 device server in my network. This way the tool is able to connect via network and a virtual RS232 port to the Radiance.
The functionality is also based on tech tip 11. 

A brief overview of the features

On/Off/Restart/Restart of the ouput board
info area
direct selection of Mem A/B/C/D, direct selection of input/mode/style/CMS
view Info OSD and HDR profiler
view internal test patterns for geometry, contrast and colors
GUI for parametric gamma EQ
remote control function for LightSpace and gamma EQ GUI
Import/Export/Reset for the current gamma configuration
Import/Export/Reset for the current CMS
renaming of modes, styles and CMS
execution of special menu commands
change of DTM parameters
virtual Remote
manual vertical shift


----------



## jrp

187crew003 said:


> While I appreciate the lengthy reply. I was asking what the “new” feature in the firmware notes for NLS override are exactly lol. Sorry I couldn’t be more clear with my question
> 
> “*Added ability for 'NLS' selection to be sticky when using auto aspect with 'Sticky aspect override' enabled.”*


There was a bug that kept the "NLS when applicable" from being "Sticky" for auto-aspect. The "Sticky" feature is useful for content that changes the source aspect between two aspects during a movie. One example of this is "Batman begins" which changes between 2.40 and 1.78. This changing aspect is especially irritating for 2.40 (or 2.35 screens) since the 16:9 image is not bigger like it is on an IMAX screen, but instead is smaller. Once the movie is in a 2.40 scene, you can select 2.40 aspect with auto-aspect enabled with "sticky override" and the movie will remain in 2.40 source aspect for the rest of the movie.

The bug related to NLS for auto-aspect mode, for 16:9, or 1.85, or 2.0, or 2.2, content on a higher aspect ratio screen. The "sticky" feature correctly kept the source aspect manually selected but dropped the NLS part if a different source aspect was detected.


----------



## 187crew003

jrp said:


> There was a bug that kept the "NLS when applicable" from being "Sticky" for auto-aspect. The "Sticky" feature is useful for content that changes the source aspect between two aspects during a movie. One example of this is "Batman begins" which changes between 2.40 and 1.78. This changing aspect is especially irritating for 2.40 (or 2.35 screens) since the 16:9 image is not bigger like it is on an IMAX screen, but instead is smaller. Once the movie is in a 2.40 scene, you can select 2.40 aspect with auto-aspect enabled with "sticky override" and the movie will remain in 2.40 source aspect for the rest of the movie.
> 
> The bug related to NLS for auto-aspect mode, for 16:9, or 1.85, or 2.0, or 2.2, content on a higher aspect ratio screen. The "sticky" feature correctly kept the source aspect manually selected but dropped the NLS part if a different source aspect was detected.


Thank you!

Exactly what I was looking for. Especially with tenet coming out


----------



## Surge2018

The latest firmware is showing great advances in HDR tone mapping! It has improvements you will notice.
I changed my DynPad setting from 2 to 5, which gives the most pleasing dynamic range on the key media I use to evaluate:
The Meg at 1:08
Blade Runner 4K (various scenes)
Secret Life of Pets (various scenes, Poodle!)


----------



## blake

Surge2018 said:


> The latest firmware is showing great advances in HDR tone mapping! It has improvements you will notice.
> I changed my DynPad setting from 2 to 5, which gives the most pleasing dynamic range on the key media I use to evaluate:
> The Meg at 1:08
> Blade Runner 4K (various scenes)
> Secret Life of Pets (various scenes, Poodle!)


Why is Dynpad always recommended 2 or 5, not intermediate 3 or 4? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## giomania

blake said:


> Why is Dynpad always recommended 2 or 5, not intermediate 3 or 4?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It has changed with the algorithm, and the algorithm improvements have narrowed the recommendation for the setting. That is my perspective from following for awhile.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Vinturbo

I tested the new firmware and I can say that the DTM improvement is very appreciable. For most critical movie scenes it performs well. I found a failure in the movie Star Trek (2009). Maybe it fails because the MAXCLL is wrongly 0?

if i can, i would like to give a suggestion to who will install the firmware. After installing the latest firmware I noticed it didn't work well. I reset only the HDR parameters and re-entered the same values as before. Much better!!


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Why is Dynpad always recommended 2 or 5, not intermediate 3 or 4?


Not sure if you saw this from a few days ago. I read it as an explanation of the difference in settings using 2 and 5, but the actual recommendation from the horses mouth was to try 2, 3, 4, 5 and select your preference.



jrp said:


> Dyn Pad: We changed to a recommendation of 2 (from 5 to 6) a while back. This was due to changes in the algorithm allowing the scene headroom to be reduced. The effect of Dyn Pad changes slightly in the upcoming release. In my viewing, IMO the Dyn Pad of 2 seems to reduce the headroom slightly from the previous release. Patrick said there were not intentional changes to the Dyn Pad headroom, but he said he did change the MaxCLL effect on calculations He said this could affect Dyn Pad. Dyn Pad of 2 still looks great for most scenes but one scene I found where I wanted a higher Dyn Pad was "The Meg" in the "Hatch scene" with the red haze in the hatch (this is in teh first couple minutes of the movie). For this scene I ended up preferring Dyn Pad = 5. I also found I preferred Dyn Pad = 5 for Mad Max, and for several other title. The difference in scene brightness between 2 nd 5 seems less to me, and I saw more bright detail changing Dyn Pad to 5.
> 
> I should note that I already have discussed this with Pro owners using the current release and suggested Dyn Pad = 5 in some cases. So this is not entirely new. Dyn Pad remains a trade-off between higher scene brightness (=2) and more detail in very bright objects (=5). This has not changed, but my preference has. I am currently thinking I will set Dyn Pad = 5 for the upcoming release. *So, my recommendation is try 2, 3, 4, and 5 for Dyn Pad over a lot of material and then select your preference.*


----------



## A7mad78

How can I just reset the HDR parameters ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gordon Fraser

A7mad78 said:


> How can I just reset the HDR parameters ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


MENU>IN>OPTIONS>HDR SETUP>SET DEFAULTS


----------



## A7mad78

Gordon Fraser said:


> MENU>IN>OPTIONS>HDR SETUP>SET DEFAULTS


Thx Gordon 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PeterLarsson

So do I get it right, i had dynpad on 5 and Max light on 400 (6X approx) before installing the new firmware. In order to get the new improved DTM i need ro reset fully all DTM settings? Otherwise I get the ”old” DTM? Is that really correct understood?


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> \
> There was a bug that kept the "NLS when applicable" from being "Sticky" for auto-aspect. The "Sticky" feature is useful for content that changes the source aspect between two aspects during a movie. One example of this is "Batman begins" which changes between 2.40 and 1.78. This changing aspect is especially irritating for 2.40 (or 2.35 screens) since the 16:9 image is not bigger like it is on an IMAX screen, but instead is smaller. Once the movie is in a 2.40 scene, you can select 2.40 aspect with auto-aspect enabled with "sticky override" and the movie will remain in 2.40 source aspect for the rest of the movie.
> 
> The bug related to NLS for auto-aspect mode, for 16:9, or 1.85, or 2.0, or 2.2, content on a higher aspect ratio screen. The "sticky" feature correctly kept the source aspect manually selected but dropped the NLS part if a different source aspect was detected.



Is there anything I need to do in settings to engage this new fix?

So to be clear, just make sure *auto aspect* and *sticky override* are enabled? Then after aspect changes from 1.78 back to 2.40, I have to re-select 2.40 aspect?

*OR*

Does this fix allow a way to set up the Radiance so the movies (like Tenet, Batman Begins) will stay in 2.40 from start to finish and accommodate the changing aspects during the film with nothing for me to do? 

Thanks


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> So to be clear, just make sure *auto aspect* and *sticky override* are enabled? Then after aspect changes from 1.78 back to 2.40, I have to re-select 2.40 aspect?
> 
> *OR*
> 
> Does this fix allow a way to set up the Radiance so the movies (like Tenet, Batman Begins) will stay in 2.40 from start to finish and accommodate the changing aspects during the film with nothing for me to do?


It's the first one. 

If you think about it there is no "fix" for the behaviour with ratio changing movies if you have AA enabled, you either have auto-aspect enabled or disabled ; there's no foolproof way for the Lumagen to know it is in a new bit of content and that changing AR isn't going to be what you wanted. So you can either wait for the first aspect ratio change to happen, and then use the sticky function to lock in a ratio. Or you can wait until you'v just started playing, and use the sticky function then (before the AR changes it still works). Or if you are really organised, are already in the right ratio, and know before starting playback, there were some commands added a while back that allowed you to disable AA on a temporary basis before starting playback, and then re-enable after. The detail of those commands is here:

"*091019- Posted 091919 Added commands to temporarily disable/re-enable auto aspect detection. Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it. These commands can be issued via rs232 using the ascii characters for these 2 remote buttons. "*


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> It's the first one.
> 
> If you think about it there is no "fix" for the behaviour with ratio changing movies if you have AA enabled, you either have auto-aspect enabled or disabled ; there's no foolproof way for the Lumagen to know it is in a new bit of content and that changing AR isn't going to be what you wanted. So you can either wait for the first aspect ratio change to happen, and then use the sticky function to lock in a ratio. Or you can wait until you'v just started playing, and use the sticky function then (before the AR changes it still works). Or if you are really organised, are already in the right ratio, and know before starting playback, there were some commands added a while back that allowed you to disable AA on a temporary basis before starting playback, and then re-enable after. The detail of those commands is here:
> 
> "*091019- Posted 091919 Added commands to temporarily disable/re-enable auto aspect detection. Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it. These commands can be issued via rs232 using the ascii characters for these 2 remote buttons. "*


yup I also setup a command sequence on my Harmony on the red and green buttons works like a charm (also good for menus that are in 1.85...btw I use a CIH 2.40 screen)


----------



## bearcat2002

Is dynpad the same as DTM pad?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thebland

bobof said:


> It's the first one.
> 
> If you think about it there is no "fix" for the behaviour with ratio changing movies if you have AA enabled, you either have auto-aspect enabled or disabled ; there's no foolproof way for the Lumagen to know it is in a new bit of content and that changing AR isn't going to be what you wanted. So you can either wait for the first aspect ratio change to happen, and then use the sticky function to lock in a ratio. Or you can wait until you'v just started playing, and use the sticky function then (before the AR changes it still works). Or if you are really organised, are already in the right ratio, and know before starting playback, there were some commands added a while back that allowed you to disable AA on a temporary basis before starting playback, and then re-enable after. The detail of those commands is here:
> 
> "*091019- Posted 091919 Added commands to temporarily disable/re-enable auto aspect detection. Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it. These commands can be issued via rs232 using the ascii characters for these 2 remote buttons. "*


Using the above, if I temporarily disable it, will it automatically re-enable after powering off then powering back on next time I use the theater? Or Do I have to re-enable with ALT-NLS?

Thanks. I'd rather disable prior to movie starting...

Thanks!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

PeterLarsson said:


> So do I get it right, i had dynpad on 5 and Max light on 400 (6X approx) before installing the new firmware. In order to get the new improved DTM i need ro reset fully all DTM settings? Otherwise I get the ”old” DTM? Is that really correct understood?


no that is not correct. Just update the firmware and you are good to go.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Cool! Thanks a lot!


----------



## Surge2018

blake said:


> Why is Dynpad always recommended 2 or 5, not intermediate 3 or 4?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It’s not. Adjust it to suite your specific install.


----------



## Surge2018

Gordon Fraser said:


> no that is not correct. Just update the firmware and you are good to go.


You may want to raise Dpad to 6 if you were at 5 before. Try it out. Jim told me that if you had it at 2 before this new firmware, you’d want to set it to 3.
I was at 2 but I ended up setting it to 5 after reviewing the scenes I use to test.

I do find that blacks may be a bit crushed now that I’ve increased Dpad. I will experiment with the Low Ratio.


----------



## tswire

Hi all. Been lurking for a while and debating between Envy Pro or the Radiance Pro. For the price (and geographic location of dealers) I have decided on the Lumagen. Before I commit I have a few questions. First, my setup. I have only 2 souce inputs....ATV4k and Shield Pro (2019). I only have one output which is JVC x770. I have been quoted a fairly good price on the following setup: Radiance Pro 4242 with 2x 18ghz inputs and 2x 9ghz inputs and 2x 9ghz outputs. Now, I have read many forums and reviews regarding 18 vs 9 ghz outputs....especially to a projector. I only have approx 15ft run HDMI from VP to JVC. Currently I am running 18ghz with zero issues (no drop outs) which allows 10bit (or 12) 422. 
Anyone with JVC x770 series (likely 790, 970 and 990 are close) that can confirm I SHOULD go to 18ghz output or not? Thanks!


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> Using the above, if I temporarily disable it, will it automatically re-enable after powering off then powering back on next time I use the theater? Or Do I have to re-enable with ALT-NLS?
> 
> Thanks. I'd rather disable prior to movie starting...


Empirically, It has the same effect it seems as "sticky for the current ratio", so if there is a major change (refresh rate change, input change, etc) then it will re-enable, and it definitely won't stick across power cycles. For that reason you might be better off turning it off just after starting playback depending on your player setup (eg if you player switches from 60p to 24p from menus to movie, you would lose the benefit if you disabled NLS in the menus (as the rate change would re-enable AA).


----------



## docrog

tswire said:


> Hi all. Been lurking for a while and debating between Envy Pro or the Radiance Pro. For the price (and geographic location of dealers) I have decided on the Lumagen. Before I commit I have a few questions. First, my setup. I have only 2 souce inputs....ATV4k and Shield Pro (2019). I only have one output which is JVC x770. I have been quoted a fairly good price on the following setup: Radiance Pro 4242 with 2x 18ghz inputs and 2x 9ghz inputs and 2x 9ghz outputs. Now, I have read many forums and reviews regarding 18 vs 9 ghz outputs....especially to a projector. I only have approx 15ft run HDMI from VP to JVC. Currently I am running 18ghz with zero issues (no drop outs) which allows 10bit (or 12) 422.
> Anyone with JVC x770 series (likely 790, 970 and 990 are close) that can confirm I SHOULD go to 18ghz output or not? Thanks!


If you don't plan on the need for additional video inputs or have an AVR/pre-pro that can pass UHD @60 without processing, you'd be able to save by purchasing a (now discontinued) 4240 with 18g. FYI: it's possible that fully warrantied B-stock unit might still be able to be located.


----------



## tswire

docrog said:


> If you don't plan on the need for additional video inputs or have an AVR/pre-pro that can pass UHD @60 without processing, you'd be able to save by purchasing a (now discontinued) 4240 with 18g. FYI: it's possible that fully warrantied B-stock unit might still be able to be located.


Awesome. So yes I will never have more inputs and yes I also have denon avr that will pass 4k60 in case. You are then recommending 18ghz no matter what?

Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

tswire said:


> Awesome. So yes I will never have more inputs and yes I also have denon avr that will pass 4k60 in case. You are then recommending 18ghz no matter what?
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


Yes, always go 18GHz. To be honest though that is only needed for 4k 60P material, of which disc based material only means Gemini Man and Billy Lynn UHDs. Lot of streaming / broadcast stuff is 60


----------



## tswire

MOberhardt said:


> Yes, always go 18GHz. To be honest though that is only needed for 4k 60P material, of which disc based material only means Gemini Man and Billy Lynn UHDs. Lot of streaming / broadcast stuff is 60


Thanks. And I missed asking for JVC owners....I have vertex 2 doing both Dolby Vision "trick" and more importantly macros for auto switching profiles based on source material. Knowing that I will use SDR Bt2020 for tone mapped HDV/DV from the Lumagen and SDR REC709 for non HDR will I still need the vertex for macro auto switching? 

Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


----------



## Surge2018

tswire said:


> Thanks. And I missed asking for JVC owners....I have vertex 2 doing both Dolby Vision "trick" and more importantly macros for auto switching profiles based on source material. Knowing that I will use SDR Bt2020 for tone mapped HDV/DV from the Lumagen and SDR REC709 for non HDR will I still need the vertex for macro auto switching?
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


I can’t directly answer your question, other than to say it’s not a good idea to have anything between the Lumagen and the projector. I initially had my Denon 8500H in between, and even with all video processing off, the image quality suffered (a bit of sharpness and brightness).


----------



## docrog

tswire said:


> Awesome. So yes I will never have more inputs and yes I also have denon avr that will pass 4k60 in case. You are then recommending 18ghz no matter what?
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


PM sent


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> I can’t directly answer your question, other than to say it’s not a good idea to have anything between the Lumagen and the projector. I initially had my Denon 8500H in between, and even with all video processing off, the image quality suffered (a bit of sharpness and brightness).


Question: what were you hoping to achieve by having your video chain Lumagen -> Denon -> PJ as you'd posted?


----------



## MOberhardt

bearcat2002 said:


> Is dynpad the same as DTM pad?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm wondering where in the menus are these settings? Under Input - Options - HDR Mapping?

Is there an updated user manual?


----------



## tswire

docrog said:


> Question: what were you hoping to achieve by having your video chain Lumagen -> Denon -> PJ as you'd posted?


I am hoping to use the Lumagen for it's awesome dynamic tone mapping and scaling. I don't have a preference where it is in the chain but currently have atv4k and shield into vertex 2 then out to avr the avr to jvc. 

Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


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## nonstopdoc1

Is anyone here using their AVR/Prepro to do the switching? Anyone? 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Surge2018

docrog said:


> Question: what were you hoping to achieve by having your video chain Lumagen -> Denon -> PJ as you'd posted?


I wanted to be able to see the Denon’s on screen display, and also auto lip sync. I now have to set audio delay manually, and it can vary by content/source.

I find that 100ms audio delay works for most sources. However, the Amazon Prime app on ATV can be 200ms.


----------



## Surge2018

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is anyone here using their AVR/Prepro to do the switching? Anyone?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Not a good idea; I tried it (see my post above). 
In addition to the degradation in image quality, there were frequent handshake issues, which necessitated the Denon’s input to be switched to something else, then back to the Lumagen.


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## Surge2018

MOberhardt said:


> I'm wondering where in the menus are these settings? Under Input - Options - HDR Mapping?
> 
> Is there an updated user manual?


If the source is HDR, and DTM is active, just press the left arrow key on the remote to bring these settings up. Note that the settings now are input specific, and you have to Save before power down.


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> I wanted to be able to see the Denon’s on screen display, and also auto lip sync. I now have to set audio delay manually, and it can vary by content/source.
> 
> I find that 100ms audio delay works for most sources. However, the Amazon Prime app on ATV can be 200ms.


As long as your Denon passes full (unprocessed) 4K @60 you could have considered Denon -> Radiance Pro -> PJ There wouldn't be any processing manipulation after the RP in that configuration and you'd have full access to your Denon's GUI since the Denon would be the AV switcher.


----------



## docrog

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is anyone here using their AVR/Prepro to do the switching? Anyone?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Yes, my Yamaha AVR works flawlessly as a switching device. I believe that your Denon should be able to perform without issues as an AV switcher if placed BEFORE the Radiance Pro as long as it passes through 4K @60. It's quite possible that the problems that @Surge2018 was experiencing may have been that he posted his video chain was Lumagen -> Denon -> PJ.


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## swarm87

sorry if this has been asked before(cant find the search function with the new layout) im looking at getting a 4242 in the next few months(most likely next summer) and was wondering if anyone was familiar with the C units; i found a Radiance Pro 4242-C-18G on the chromapure shop site and dont see anything on the C units on lumagen's website.


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> Using the above, if I temporarily disable it, will it automatically re-enable after powering off then powering back on next time I use the theater? Or Do I have to re-enable with ALT-NLS?
> 
> Thanks. I'd rather disable prior to movie starting...


When you select a specific aspect (say 2.40) with sticky override for Auto-aspect enabled, it will stay at that aspect if it detects a different aspect. If you disable auto-aspect with this command (ALT CLR), whatever the current aspect is, it is maintained even if a new source aspect is detected.

However, an input, or input rate, change would re-engage auto-aspect. So if you are on the OSD at 60, disable auto-aspect, when the movie starts at 24p it would be enabled again.

To select the aspect before you start the movie you would need an input memory set to have auto-aspect Off (as opposed to temporarily disabled as above), and then select it and the aspect you want.


----------



## jrp

swarm87 said:


> sorry if this has been asked before(cant find the search function with the new layout) im looking at getting a 4242 in the next few months(most likely next summer) and was wondering if anyone was familiar with the C units; i found a Radiance Pro 4242-C-18G on the chromapure shop site and dont see anything on the C units on lumagen's website.


The "-C" is short for "compact." Up until now this has been an unpublished smaller case version of the 4242 for calibrators and dealers who wanted to carry a 4242 around with them to demo, or use as a pattern generator. This case is about 11 by 2 by 5.5 inches and holds identical circuit boards (and fan) as a full size 4242, but in much tighter quarters. So the 4242-C+ has the exact same functionality as the 4242+.

Built in volume, as I am now doing, the -C case is less expensive than the full size rack mount case. The -C case seemed a good fit for the B-Stock units that use a "re-balled" FPGA that we had a few of (and should have more coming). Using the -C case allowed me to price these B-Stock units a bit lower.


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> When you select a specific aspect (say 2.40) with sticky override for Auto-aspect enabled, it will stay at that aspect if it detects a different aspect. If you disable auto-aspect with this command (ALT CLR), whatever the current aspect is, it is maintained even if a new source aspect is detected.
> 
> However, an input, or input rate, change would re-engage auto-aspect. So if you are on the OSD at 60, disable auto-aspect, when the movie starts at 24p it would be enabled again.
> 
> To select the aspect before you start the movie you would need an input memory set to have auto-aspect Off (as opposed to temporarily disabled as above), and then select it and the aspect you want.


Thanks Jim!

So, if I understand this... in the new firmware 'sticky override for Auto-Aspect' by default is already enabled. So, if I fire up Tenet using my K, it should play all the way through without any aspect changes if I hit ALT CLR?

****(I have not enabled the newer KScape recommendation for the Graphic Flag to speed up syncing - if this matters). I would enable it if it would facilitate the above to work without having to shoot an extra command (ALT CLR) before playing a movie like Tenet or Batman Begin as the frame rate would still be 24 with the menus and movie... Is this correct? I like easy !


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> I'm wondering where in the menus are these settings? Under Input - Options - HDR Mapping?
> 
> Is there an updated user manual?


These settings are in the "Left-arrow" menu (and in the Input.Options.HDR Settings menu). Press Left-arrow while watching HDR and you will see these options.

==== 

We are very close to releasing an updated manual. I am hoping to release it this week. It should have the latest features listed.


----------



## dgkula

tswire said:


> Thanks. And I missed asking for JVC owners....I have vertex 2 doing both Dolby Vision "trick" and more importantly macros for auto switching profiles based on source material. Knowing that I will use SDR Bt2020 for tone mapped HDV/DV from the Lumagen and SDR REC709 for non HDR will I still need the vertex for macro auto switching?
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


No I no longer use my vertex. I used mine to choose the right static curve based on hdr Metadata. This is all dynamic, plug and play and much, much better picture!


----------



## tswire

dgkula said:


> No I no longer use my vertex


Does it provide rs232 out to jvc for auto switching or you just do it manually? Or you have your material all being send out at SDR bt2020 from Lumagen (and therefore leave jvc at that color profile and 2.4 gamma)?

Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


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## dgkula

tswire said:


> Does it provide rs232 out to jvc for auto switching or you just do it manually? Or you have your material all being send out at SDR bt2020 from Lumagen (and therefore leave jvc at that color profile and 2.4 gamma)?
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


Lumagen will send the hdr flag for jvc projectors when sending hdr in an sdr/bt2020 container.
So I have reconfigured the hdr mode as gamma 2.4 with high lamp and filter. For non-hdr I use normal, low lamp, no filter.


----------



## dgkula

tswire said:


> Hi all. Been lurking for a while and debating between Envy Pro or the Radiance Pro. For the price (and geographic location of dealers) I have decided on the Lumagen. Before I commit I have a few questions. First, my setup. I have only 2 souce inputs....ATV4k and Shield Pro (2019). I only have one output which is JVC x770. I have been quoted a fairly good price on the following setup: Radiance Pro 4242 with 2x 18ghz inputs and 2x 9ghz inputs and 2x 9ghz outputs. Now, I have read many forums and reviews regarding 18 vs 9 ghz outputs....especially to a projector. I only have approx 15ft run HDMI from VP to JVC. Currently I am running 18ghz with zero issues (no drop outs) which allows 10bit (or 12) 422.
> Anyone with JVC x770 series (likely 790, 970 and 990 are close) that can confirm I SHOULD go to 18ghz output or not? Thanks!


I have the rs620 / 990 and went all 18g


----------



## dgkula

tswire said:


> I am hoping to use the Lumagen for it's awesome dynamic tone mapping and scaling. I don't have a preference where it is in the chain but currently have atv4k and shield into vertex 2 then out to avr the avr to jvc.
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


I run my sources into the lumagen, audio only out to Avr and video out to projector


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> Thanks Jim!
> 
> So, if I understand this... in the new firmware 'sticky override for Auto-Aspect' by default is already enabled. So, if I fire up Tenet using my K, it should play all the way through without any aspect changes if I hit ALT CLR?
> 
> ****(I have not enabled the newer KScape recommendation for the Graphic Flag to speed up syncing - if this matters). I would enable it if it would facilitate the above to work without having to shoot an extra command (ALT CLR) before playing a movie like Tenet or Batman Begin as the frame rate would still be 24 with the menus and movie... Is this correct? I like easy !


Sticky override is not on by default. It is a function that needs to be enabled when setting up the Auto Aspect function for an input source.

I also don't really recommend the Graphic flag workaround in the Radiance unless you find the change from the menus in the K to the movie annoying enough to consider it. It makes the interface of the K look a bit rough in operation. Jim uses it because it takes his projector the better part of a year to lock onto a new HDMI signal, but this may not be the case in your setup.


----------



## Kris Deering

I wanted to chime in a bit on the new update for the Lumagen as my inbox has been swamped with people asking me about it and what changes they should or shouldn't do for their tone map. 

At this point I am not recommending ANY updates in settings. I don't like the idea of going to a DPAD of 5/6 instead of a 2/3 just because it makes one scene in a movie that is already notoriously overcooked in APL and color a little better. I find those settings compromise the bulk of other content for the sake of that one scene. The other thing is there is no universal setting that works best for all usage cases. DPAD has to do with how much padding to the CLL the Lumagen applies to a scene to avoid possible clipping artifacts as it goes from frame to frame. If you have a decent amount of nits to work with, you really don't need a lot of padding. If you are running with a fairly low number of nits, you likely need more. But there is no "one number fits all" and I feel that using a 5/6 is going to make a lot of content look darker than it should as it is wasting dynamic range that doesn't need to be. I would be more inclined to adjust this setting for the small handful of super high APL/Saturated titles that need it, and then only if you even notice the issues (I doubt most would unless they were pointed out to them). 

The reason the Lumagen's tone map has an array of settings is because there is no one size fits all. Every setup has differences in how much light they have to work with. That changes the display max light and low ratio (these set the upper and lower multipliers and tell the Lumagen how much range it has to work with). DPAD is going to depend on how much range you have to start with. If you are at the really low end of things and have to rely on really low numbers for DML and LR, a higher DPAD may be necessary to avoid some clipping because the Lumagen is already struggling with the range you gave it. If you have a lot of light and your numbers are higher, there is almost no reason to run anything over a 2 because you already gave the Lumagen a lot of room to work with. 

There is more to this that applies to DSAT as well and some of the comments on using different content to set it. Honestly, it should just be set to AUTO and then changed in the VERY rare case of watching something that may need more than that. Setting it using an extreme example (Spears and Munsil at 4000/10000 nits) is not the best idea because this content is such an isolated test case that is great for testing, but doesn't even come close to representing the bulk of content your actually going to be watching. If you find the literal handful of titles that may approach this type of situation (and there are only a few), then you could always change that setting if you see a problem (again, I don't feel most would unless they were pointed out to them).


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> There is more to this that applies to DSAT as well and some of the comments on using different content to set it. Honestly, it should just be set to AUTO and then changed in the VERY rare case of watching something that may need more than that. Setting it using an extreme example (Spears and Munsil at 4000/10000 nits) is not the best idea because this content is such an isolated test case that is great for testing, but doesn't even come close to representing the bulk of content your actually going to be watching. If you find the literal handful of titles that may approach this type of situation (and there are only a few), then you could always change that setting if you see a problem (again, I don't feel most would unless they were pointed out to them).


Kris, when you had previously responded to a post of mine that viewing the demo content of the S&M demo material at 10,000 nits was inappropriate (unwarranted?) for an NX7 I then asked you at what level you recommended watching this content. Are you (above) suggesting viewing the content at 4,000 nits to best assess the RP DTM?? Thanks!


----------



## audioguy

Since I can no longer figure out (due to the new format on AVS) how to search in specific thread, I will ask a question that may have already been asked many times before. 

Tried to Watch one of the Star Wars (Solo) from Disney+ in HDR/Atmos) on AppleTV and it was incredibly dark. I changed the ATV setting to match frame rate and dynamic range and it got better but still seemed darker than it should (we have 9 of the 11 movies on disc and the ones we have watched on disc looked great and had no issue with being too dark). Are there any other settings that I need to change? I am asking here vs the ATV thread since I am using a Lumagen Radiance Pro and want to be sure I change whatever is necessary to give the Lumagen what it needs.

Thanks.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> Since I can no longer figure out (due to the new format on AVS) how to search in specific thread, I will ask a question that may have already been asked many times before.
> 
> Tried to Watch one of the Star Wars (Solo) from Disney+ in HDR/Atmos) on AppleTV and it was incredibly dark. I changed the ATV setting to match frame rate and dynamic range and it got better but still seemed darker than it should (we have 9 of the 11 movies on disc and the ones we have watched on disc looked great and had no issue with being too dark). Are there any other settings that I need to change? I am asking here vs the ATV thread since I am using a Lumagen Radiance Pro and want to be sure I change whatever is necessary to give the Lumagen what it needs.
> 
> Thanks.


Solo was shot dark intentionally. The DP is known for that style. He shot Arrival as well, which people say the same thing about.


----------



## audioguy

Kris: Thanks. So is setting Match Frame Rate and Match Dynamic Range the only settings I need to insure are set properly?


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> Thanks Jim!
> 
> So, if I understand this... in the new firmware 'sticky override for Auto-Aspect' by default is already enabled. So, if I fire up Tenet using my K, it should play all the way through without any aspect changes if I hit ALT CLR?
> 
> ****(I have not enabled the newer KScape recommendation for the Graphic Flag to speed up syncing - if this matters). I would enable it if it would facilitate the above to work without having to shoot an extra command (ALT CLR) before playing a movie like Tenet or Batman Begin as the frame rate would still be 24 with the menus and movie... Is this correct? I like easy !


Auto aspect is disabled with default settings. You need to manually turn it on. In the USA "HDMI+Image" is considered the best since for 4:3 and 16:9 some set-top boxes send correct HDMI aspect flags. However, in Europe we hear some major set-top brands get the HDMI aspect flags wrong. So for Europe we recommend the auto-aspect mode be set to "Image."

We also recommend the "Sticky" mode as has been being discussed. 

Having "NLS if applicable" is a personal preference. I discussed aspect cases recently in this thread. 

You can now merge 1.85 and 1.78, and/or 2.35 and 2.40 to prevent miss-queues given how close these are.


----------



## jrp

I won't quote his post but Kris is right on with his comments.

As I mentioned you should do your own testing with DPad = 2, 3, 4, and 5, using the latest software, and then judge for yourself. If you have a lot of light 5 may be the best, but maybe not. I have switched to Dyn Pad = 5, but already am thinking of dropping to 3 or 4 for the reasons Kris mentions. At this point I like 3 better than 2 with the latest release, and for almost all content 3 would be an excellent choice. At a setting of 5 I see almost no clipping, but the image is dimmer. Again for almost all content Dyn Pad = 2 gives you the brightest image overall and almost no scenes have visible clipping. Dyn Pad of 3 or 4 are middle ground.

If you don't have a lot of light, then you might find Dyn Pad of 5 is too dark for you. If you go back and forth between brighter and less bright, brighter will always look better to you in the moment. However, as I mentioned, I suggest making a choice and then sitting back and watching content. Make a judgement after a good amount of content. Then, make a different choice and watch for a while (the same content over again is best). This is a case where back and forth comparisons may not be your best option. Longer term "scoring" type of analysis after a lot of viewing may (and I think it will) help you make the best choice for you.

In the end you need to make your own choice based on your projector, screen, static contrast ratio, light off the screen, and then sprinkle in personal preference after a lot of viewing time.

If you like you previous settings, then there is no reason to rush and change them for the current release. Your old settings should still give excellent performance.


----------



## woofer

Some feedback re........ new firmware...

I run my Z1/RS4500 with a 143" scope screen . MEDIUM Laser gives me 75nits.

My previous DTM settings ....LOW Ratio 34 .....DPAD 2......DSAT LOW.....MAXLIGHT 450

With the NEW firmware i am at ..LOW RATIO 35 ...DPAD 3 ....DSAT LOW ...MAXLIGHT 440

I tried DPAD of 5-6 initially and while a couple of scenes ( rare) in the "MEG" looked a "tad" improved, overall all other content is much to dark and lacks "Pop" .

Even with the current firmware i do not see any issues with using DPAD of 2..... i may well end back up at that point after some more scrutinising ...we will see...


----------



## blake

woofer said:


> Some feedback re........ new firmware...
> 
> I run my Z1/RS4500 with a 143" scope screen . MEDIUM Laser gives me 75nits.
> 
> My previous DTM settings ....LOW Ratio 34 .....DPAD 2......DSAT LOW.....MAXLIGHT 450
> 
> With the NEW firmware i am at ..LOW RATIO 35 ...DPAD 3 ....DSAT LOW ...MAXLIGHT 440
> 
> I tried DPAD of 5-6 initially and while a couple of scenes ( rare) in the "MEG" looked a "tad" improved, overall all other content is much to dark and lacks "Pop" .
> 
> Even with the current firmware i do not see any issues with using DPAD of 2..... i may well end back up at that point after some more scrutinising ...we will see...


Your maxlight is 6x your peak nits. Jim recommends 4-5x. Just curious why you chose this high number, and how that affects your image.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Your maxlight is 6x your peak nits. Jim recommends 4-5x. Just curious why you chose this high number, and how that affects your image.


These are all a bit "season to taste" anyway, as Lumagen so far have stayed away from having a single measured nits value input, and thus having to work out best curves for all valid nit levels. 

But in any case, Jim's most recent post was that he preferred 6x, not the 5x he'd previously used.



jrp said:


> Max Light: I have been at 5x (400 for a measured max of 78 nits) for our Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. With the new release I prefer setting Max Light 6x measured max. This helped with some bright details (e.g. Mad Max: Fury Road sand storm scene explosions).


----------



## 187crew003

what would be the result if you used say 350 max light and your ratio was 0?


----------



## Surge2018

@audioguy Solo was not a great transfer to 4K. If you read the reviews, you’ll see it was too dark.
For Apple TV, you should always have Match Frame Rate and Dynamic Range enabled. Remember to change Apple TV to the resolution of what you are watching (1080P for HD, 4K for UKD), and always keep it in SDR, not HDR! It will auto switch to HDR when in SDR mode. If you keep it in SDR, Apple is trying to convert SDR content to HDR, which does not look great!


----------



## audioguy

Surge2018 said:


> @audioguy Solo was not a great transfer to 4K. If you read the reviews, you’ll see it was too dark.
> For Apple TV, you should always have Match Frame Rate and Dynamic Range enabled. Remember to change Apple TV to the resolution of what you are watching (1080P for HD, 4K for UKD), and always keep it in SDR, not HDR! It will auto switch to HDR when in SDR mode. If you keep it in SDR, Apple is trying to convert SDR content to HDR, which does not look great!


Thanks. Given we had watched three (Disc based) episodes and thought the image incredible, I could not figure out why this one was (a) darker and (b) a far less detailed/clean image. Now I know!

Very helpful.


----------



## SJHT

Han Solo with a Lumagen Pro is at least watchable.....


----------



## Eric Lloyd

woofer said:


> Some feedback re........ new firmware...
> 
> I run my Z1/RS4500 with a 143" scope screen . MEDIUM Laser gives me 75nits.
> 
> My previous DTM settings ....LOW Ratio 34 .....DPAD 2......DSAT LOW.....MAXLIGHT 450
> 
> With the NEW firmware i am at ..LOW RATIO 35 ...DPAD 3 ....DSAT LOW ...MAXLIGHT 440
> 
> I tried DPAD of 5-6 initially and while a couple of scenes ( rare) in the "MEG" looked a "tad" improved, overall all other content is much to dark and lacks "Pop" .
> 
> Even with the current firmware i do not see any issues with using DPAD of 2..... i may well end back up at that point after some more scrutinising ...we will see...


So glad someone else uses low ratio down to the projector's nit output. I have a Sony UST where black levels aren't in line with JVC's, and getting dark scenes down with low ratio makes the contrast of the light images help out the fuzzy greys significantly. This is the only time I stray from Kris' recommendations.

I am still messing with MAXLIGHT and DPAD on the latest firmware, it seems if I go 6X MAX and DPAD 3, it's similar to going 5X MAX and DPAD 5. Such a balance between richness of colors and brightness of image. 

May I ask why you didn't go max laser?


----------



## thrang

Very interesting and promising update... very early testing but I’m finding there’s more output headroom in DTM now (if, as a layman, I’m describing my experience correctly) Need to adjust some parameters, perhaps trying a 5.5 or 6x max light multiplier...

thanks to Jim and Patrick for the continued efforts here (and, I’m sure, a related back-slap to Kris for most certainly driving Pat beneficially crazy with picking the peanuts out of the.... well, you know...)


----------



## fatherom

Eric Lloyd said:


> So glad someone else uses low ratio down to the projector's nit output. I have a Sony UST where black levels aren't in line with JVC's, and getting dark scenes down with low ratio makes the contrast of the light images help out the fuzzy greys significantly. This is the only time I stray from Kris' recommendations.


Can you elaborate on this? I have a Sony 885ES, so I wonder if this could/would apply to me. Can you describe what you look for in the image, and in what way you adjust the low ratio? (I'm using the default of 31)


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Han Solo with a Lumagen Pro is at least watchable.....


On 4K UHD Blu-ray it certainly is, with a Lumagen. Now that I'm finished with all the Marvel movies in 4K in order ( which looked outstanding with my Lumagen / RS4500 / DCR lens ), time to watch all the Star Wars films in 4K in order for the first time. The dynamic tone mapping just makes these look amazing.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> I won't quote his post but Kris is right on with his comments.
> 
> As I mentioned you should do your own testing with DPad = 2, 3, 4, and 5, using the latest software, and then judge for yourself. If you have a lot of light 5 may be the best, but maybe not. I have switched to Dyn Pad = 5, but already am thinking of dropping to 3 or 4 for the reasons Kris mentions. At this point I like 3 better than 2 with the latest release, and for almost all content 3 would be an excellent choice. At a setting of 5 I see almost no clipping, but the image is dimmer. Again for almost all content Dyn Pad = 2 gives you the brightest image overall and almost no scenes have visible clipping. Dyn Pad of 3 or 4 are middle ground.
> 
> If you don't have a lot of light, then you might find Dyn Pad of 5 is too dark for you. If you go back and forth between brighter and less bright, brighter will always look better to you in the moment. However, as I mentioned, I suggest making a choice and then sitting back and watching content. Make a judgement after a good amount of content. Then, make a different choice and watch for a while (the same content over again is best). This is a case where back and forth comparisons may not be your best option. Longer term "scoring" type of analysis after a lot of viewing may (and I think it will) help you make the best choice for you.
> 
> In the end you need to make your own choice based on your projector, screen, static contrast ratio, light off the screen, and then sprinkle in personal preference after a lot of viewing time.
> 
> If you like you previous settings, then there is no reason to rush and change them for the current release. Your old settings should still give excellent performance.


Jim, with such a huge improvement in scene adaption and zone analysis algos, I saw much much less brightness fluctuations and clippings. So I think it is even safer to use a low Dpad setting than before. But again, this always depends on everyone's actual brightness and taste. With my setup, close to 150 nit, I found Dpad 2 is my favourate settting.


----------



## Eric Lloyd

fatherom said:


> Can you elaborate on this? I have a Sony 885ES, so I wonder if this could/would apply to me. Can you describe what you look for in the image, and in what way you adjust the low ratio? (I'm using the default of 31)


Sure- and right now I am assuming that the low ratio does not impact bright scenes - I am not 100% on it, but i've been AB testing it as much as possible and it doesn't appear to. Bly Manor or Hill House on Netflix is a perfect test case here. Both have really low level scenes AND it's streaming so compression amplifies the issue. One those low level scenes, change LOW RATIO on the fly. What you should notice is that the lighter parts of the image, such as someone's face, candlelight, etc. get brighter, increasing the perceived level of contrast in the scene. It's not night and day and cannot make up for things that aren't there, but perception is the name of the game here. I think I have my ratio at 33 vs 31. I think projectors that have the best blacks prob don't need this, but mine def does.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> On 4K UHD Blu-ray it certainly is, with a Lumagen. Now that I'm finished with all the Marvel movies in 4K in order ( which looked outstanding with my Lumagen / RS4500 / DCR lens ), time to watch all the Star Wars films in 4K in order for the first time. The dynamic tone mapping just makes these look amazing.


We have watched the first "four" in Chronological order and the video from the discs of the first three was stunning - with, of course, the Disney gimped 7.x.2 audio. The Hans Solo movie, at least the streamed version, was a long way from the first three.


----------



## audioguy

Surge2018 said:


> @audioguy Solo was not a great transfer to 4K. If you read the reviews, you’ll see it was too dark.
> For Apple TV, you should always have Match Frame Rate and Dynamic Range enabled. Remember to change Apple TV to the resolution of what you are watching (1080P for HD, 4K for UKD), and *always keep it in SDR*, not HDR! It will auto switch to HDR when in SDR mode. *If you keep it in SDR, Apple is trying to convert SDR content to HDR, which does not look great!*


@ Surge2018 Maybe I am misreading this. First you said *"always keep it in SDR"* - but then you said "*If you keep it in SDR, Apple is trying to convert SDR content to HDR, which does not look great!". *

I'm confused.


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> @ Surge2018 Maybe I am misreading this. First you said *"always keep it in SDR"* - but then you said "*If you keep it in SDR, Apple is trying to convert SDR content to HDR, which does not look great!". *
> 
> I'm confused.


Just a typo. You want to set the AppleTV to SDR. If you set to HDR, then it will upconvert SDR content to HDR, and do a poor job of it. Instead, use SDR, and set Match Frame Rate and Dynamic Range to ON, and then the ATV will output HDR when it is supposed to, and SDR when it isn't.


----------



## Des511

I’ve got about 70 nits to play with so what are the suggested setting with the new firmware?


----------



## Eric Lloyd

fatherom said:


> Can you elaborate on this? I have a Sony 885ES, so I wonder if this could/would apply to me. Can you describe what you look for in the image, and in what way you adjust the low ratio? (I'm using the default of 31)


I just edited my answer as I said change DPAD on the fly, I meant low ratio on the fly. Sorry about that!


----------



## woofer

Eric Lloyd said:


> May I ask why you didn't go max laser?


once upon a time i used to run HIGH Laser ...... but i dont find it necessary now... I still achieve an awesome image with 75-80 nits...


----------



## PeterLarsson

I have might run into a sever bug or my new unit is perhaps even broken. It started around lunch today while having a break and watch the Hobbit and sudden drop outs of picture happend the first minutes...

My setup: Raduiance Pro 4242
Input 1: ATV
Input 3: UHD Player Panasonic UB-820
Input 4: Set top box Fiber TV
Projector Sony VW790
Processor/AVR: Arcam AVR390
Downloaded and upgraded to the latest firmware two days ago and no problem

Started the system to watch a movie tonight - and no picture. I got really confused and tried to connect to ATV on input 1, no problem. I went back to input 3 where I have UHD 4k and just had a look in the menu and saw that input 3 was assigned to physicak input 2, and I went whaaat (see picture below)? I tried to change to 3 but impossible and it falled back to 2 all the time. Suddenly even if I was on Input 3 the menu showed input 1 (see 2nd picture below). The same behaviour on input 4, impossible to use Physical input 4 for input 4, also falled back to physical input 2. So when finally putting UHD player in physical HDMI port 2 I could get a picture since 2 was ok. So both 3 and 4 forces to input 2 now without any possibility to change to the right inputs, which makes me think my less than 3 weeks old Lumagen is broken. 

What I did was to go back one version on the firmware, but the very same behaviour. Tried also a factory reset and then before upload config file I tried out assign 3 to input 3, which failed even if factory reset. 

I am extremely worried. I live in Sweden and no close support and just invested a huge amount on Lumagen and soon Christmas .

Any suggestion on how to fix this? Anyone experienced anything similar? 

Please see the pictures as examples below.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I have might run into a sever bug or my new unit is perhaps even broken. It started around lunch today while having a break and watch the Hobbit and sudden drop outs of picture happend the first minutes...
> 
> My setup: Raduiance Pro 4242
> Input 1: ATV
> Input 3: UHD Player Panasonic UB-820
> Input 4: Set top box Fiber TV
> Projector Sony VW790
> Processor/AVR: Arcam AVR390
> Downloaded and upgraded to the latest firmware two days ago and no problem
> 
> Started the system to watch a movie tonight - and no picture. I got really confused and tried to connect to ATV on input 1, no problem. I went back to input 3 where I have UHD 4k and just had a look in the menu and saw that input 3 was assigned to physicak input 2, and I went whaaat (see picture below)? I tried to change to 3 but impossible and it falled back to 2 all the time. Suddenly even if I was on Input 3 the menu showed input 1 (see 2nd picture below). The same behaviour on input 4, impossible to use Physical input 4 for input 4, also falled back to physical input 2. So when finally putting UHD player in physical HDMI port 2 I could get a picture since 2 was ok. So both 3 and 4 forces to input 2 now without any possibility to change to the right inputs, which makes me think my less than 3 weeks old Lumagen is broken.
> 
> What I did was to go back one version on the firmware, but the very same behaviour. Tried also a factory reset and then before upload config file I tried out assign 3 to input 3, which failed even if factory reset.
> 
> I am extremely worried. I live in Sweden and no close support and just invested a huge amount on Lumagen and soon Christmas .
> 
> Any suggestion on how to fix this? Anyone experienced anything similar?
> 
> Please see the pictures as examples below.
> View attachment 3067166
> 
> 
> View attachment 3067167


Has an input card failed? If I recall there is a menu command you can use that shows the cards in the unit. That might explain 3 and 4 defaulting to 2, and not being able to choose 3 or 4. Maybe it doesn't think the card is there anymore.
EDIT: That would be my thought (engineer brain always defaults to trying to fix the problem!) , but actually just get in touch with [email protected] and I'm sure they'll sort you out.


----------



## dlinsley

PeterLarsson said:


> I got really confused and tried to connect to ATV on input 1, no problem. I went back to input 3 where I have UHD 4k and just had a look in the menu and saw that input 3 was assigned to physicak input 2, and I went whaaat (see picture below)? I tried to change to 3 but impossible and it falled back to 2 all the time.


If you bring up the info screen and cycle through (OK with no menu showing for example) does it show only inputs 1 and 2 available? I think it's the second screen. Maybe the 3-4 card was a little loose in shipping and needs to be reseated.

Emailing support direct usually has a fast turned time.


----------



## Surge2018

dgkula said:


> I run my sources into the lumagen, audio only out to Avr and video out to projector


This is the ideal connection. Running video through an AVR, whether before or after the Lumagen, will result in picture quality degradation. Even my "top of the line" Denon 8500 with all video processing disabled, dimmed the image slightly. There was a noticeable improvement with the AVR removed from the chain. There were also numerous handshake issues while navigating and watching content.


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> I won't quote his post but Kris is right on with his comments.
> 
> As I mentioned you should do your own testing with DPad = 2, 3, 4, and 5, using the latest software, and then judge for yourself. If you have a lot of light 5 may be the best, but maybe not. I have switched to Dyn Pad = 5, but already am thinking of dropping to 3 or 4 for the reasons Kris mentions. At this point I like 3 better than 2 with the latest release, and for almost all content 3 would be an excellent choice. At a setting of 5 I see almost no clipping, but the image is dimmer. Again for almost all content Dyn Pad = 2 gives you the brightest image overall and almost no scenes have visible clipping. Dyn Pad of 3 or 4 are middle ground.
> 
> If you don't have a lot of light, then you might find Dyn Pad of 5 is too dark for you. If you go back and forth between brighter and less bright, brighter will always look better to you in the moment. However, as I mentioned, I suggest making a choice and then sitting back and watching content. Make a judgement after a good amount of content. Then, make a different choice and watch for a while (the same content over again is best). This is a case where back and forth comparisons may not be your best option. Longer term "scoring" type of analysis after a lot of viewing may (and I think it will) help you make the best choice for you.
> 
> In the end you need to make your own choice based on your projector, screen, static contrast ratio, light off the screen, and then sprinkle in personal preference after a lot of viewing time.
> 
> If you like you previous settings, then there is no reason to rush and change them for the current release. Your old settings should still give excellent performance.


Jim, there's a bit of confusion (at least in my mind) between your comments and Jim's. From your comments, it appears as thought a lower DPad number is better if you have less light to work with. From Kris' comments, it's not clear but he seems to indicate you want a lower number if you have more light:
@jrp mentioned: "if you have a lot of light 5 may be the best".
@Kris Deering mentioned: "if you are at the really low end of things and have to rely on really low numbers for DML and LR, a high DPAD may be necessary".

I know that a lower DPad value brightens the image. This would mean that if your display has more available light, you want a larger DPad value, since you also have a wider range of min-max light available (LowRatio - MaxLight). Right?

So my question is - assuming you have sufficient light output in your display, is the ideal DPad value 5? I realize 'one size does not fit all'. In my case I have MaxLight set to 1070 (which is not overly bright on scenes like @1:08 in The Meg and across varied content). LowRatio is 31. I had DynPad at 2 before the update, but now I find that DynPad 5 is best.
[Edit: I removed my comment about The Mandalorian appearing too dark, as I read that it's apparently not really in HDR! So the source you are evaluating matters!]


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*120420 FW*
- _Posted 121420_ 
Fix for the new ZY521 rs232 command added in 120320 update, use 'H' or 'N' for sensitivity. 
Bugfix for changing styles with memories sometimes causing an incorrect change in the colorspace gamut convert setting. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> We have watched the first "four" in Chronological order and the video from the discs of the first three was stunning - with, of course, the Disney gimped 7.x.2 audio. The Hans Solo movie, at least the streamed version, was a long way from the first three.


I fix the gimped audio by cranking the volume and the bass - unless my wife is watching, in which case she likes it better when it's not too loud. And if she's happy, I'll get more fun after the movie is over.


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> This is the ideal connection. Running video through an AVR, whether before or after the Lumagen, will result in picture quality degradation. Even my "top of the line" Denon 8500 with all video processing disabled, dimmed the image slightly. There was a noticeable improvement with the AVR removed from the chain. There were also numerous handshake issues while navigating and watching content.


I don't think that you should make such global declarative statements ("running video through an AVR before or after the Lumagen will result in picture quality degradation") based solely on your personal Denon experience. My RP (located in the video stream after my flagship Yamaha AVR) was calibrated by one of the most respected and knowledgeable Lumagen calibrators in the US. He found absolutely *NO *deterioration or compromise of the RP's final product or handshake issues (compared with those who use the RP as the video switcher) with any of my 4 video sources which range from HD to UHD. That calibration occurred more than 8 months ago and my RP continues to function flawlessly. According to your prior posts, you had positioned your RP in front of the Denon. I would be interested to know whether you ever attempted to position the RP after your Denon and, if so, what specific issues you may have encountered. I assume that the Denon, like the Yamaha, is capable of passing full [email protected] without any additional video processing and that your interconnect cables are not a potential contributor to your issues.


----------



## Sittler27

Des511 said:


> I’ve got about 70 nits to play with so what are the suggested setting with the new firmware?


I'd go max350 min31 dynpad2. Then try various dympads up to 5.


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> I don't think that you should make such global declarative statements ("running video through an AVR before or after the Lumagen will result in picture quality degradation") based solely on your personal Denon experience. My RP (located in the video stream after my flagship Yamaha AVR) was calibrated by one of the most respected and knowledgeable Lumagen calibrators in the US. He found absolutely *NO *deterioration or compromise of the RP's final product or handshake issues (compared with those who use the RP as the video switcher) with any of my 4 video sources which range from HD to UHD. That calibration occurred more than 8 months ago and my RP continues to function flawlessly. According to your prior posts, you had positioned your RP in front of the Denon. I would be interested to know whether you ever attempted to position the RP after your Denon and, if so, what specific issues you may have encountered. I assume that the Denon, like the Yamaha, is capable of passing full [email protected] without any additional video processing and that your interconnect cables are not a potential contributor to your issues.


Think about it - any time you increase the signal path, you are degrading that signal. It’s very simple, actually. My Denon is also the “flagship” and all processing was turned off. Cables were the same in all cases, and of high quality.
The best way to convince yourself is to just remove the AVR from the chain and compare the image.

Yes, I had the Denon in between the Lumagen and the projector — but it doesn’t matter where it is. It will still degrade the image quality. Calibration with the AVR in the chain doesn’t matter - you just calibrated the image with the AVR in the chain. Of course you can get an accurate calibration with the AVR in the chain. Just like you can get an audio equalization with many audio components in a chain.

I also didn’t believe the Lumagen recommendation that the image quality will suffer if you run the video through an AVR. It was only after I tried it both ways that I saw ’the light’!
I’m sure you have good reasons to use the AVR in the signal path, but perhaps you can rework things so it’s no longer in the video path.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> I fix the gimped audio by cranking the volume and the bass - unless my wife is watching, in which case she likes it better when it's not too loud. And if she's happy, I'll get more fun after the movie is over.


Cranking the volume only solves part of the problem. There are no moving Objects (which is what Atmos is suppose to have/do) - and it is basically channel based at 7.x.2. By telling the Altitude I don't have Center Heights, I get 7.x.4. And by some other non-traditional trickery, I can use my Wides and Rear Surrounds. It's not that the sound is awful (far from it), only that with that much attention to the greatly improved video, the audio is pretty pitiful and far below what those movies deserve. The Star Wars movies are classics and deserve the very best audio and video possible. They failed miserably on the audio side. But that's Disney !!!


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> I also didn’t believe the Lumagen recommendation that the image quality will suffer if you run the video through an AVR.


AFAIK, @jrp no longer counsels against utilizing state of the art AVR/pre-pro before the RP (as had been the case with older technology). I believe that it is mentioned as a fully acceptable configuration in the most recent user manual. The primary reason for using this configuration is accessibility of the AVR's GUI and less potential for audio issues since the HDMI audio stream does not become split from the video stream. Although you have the right to hypothesize about detrioration caused by an additional device in the video chain, I was hoping that you had personally tried the Denon -> RP -> display configuration prior to making your blanket statement.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> AFAIK, @jrp no longer counsels against utilizing state of the art AVR/pre-pro before the RP (as had been the case with older technology). I believe that it is mentioned as a fully acceptable configuration in the most recent user manual. The primary reason for using this configuration is accessibility of the AVR's GUI and less potential for audio issues since the HDMI audio stream does not become split from the video stream. Although you have the right to hypothesize about detrioration caused by an additional device in the video chain, I was hoping that you had personally tried the Denon -> RP -> display configuration prior to making your blanket statement.


I have nearly the highest denon and I had nothing but issues running it before the lumagen. Handshake issues and video quality issues. 

You've had one experience. There are tons of accounts and evidence (not just about the lumagen) of AVRs affecting video intentionally or unintentionally. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> AFAIK, @jrp no longer counsels against utilizing state of the art AVR/pre-pro before the RP (as had been the case with older technology). I believe that it is mentioned as a fully acceptable configuration in the most recent user manual. The primary reason for using this configuration is accessibility of the AVR's GUI and less potential for audio issues since the HDMI audio stream does not become split from the video stream. Although you have the right to hypothesize about detrioration caused by an additional device in the video chain, I was hoping that you had personally tried the Denon -> RP -> display configuration prior to making your blanket statement.


The recommendation in the Lumagen manual is to connect the sources to the Lumagen and then to the display, and use the second output for audio from the Lumagen to the AVR. I did not try it with the Denon before the Lumagen because it's clear to me the image will suffer. It's another component in the chain, that doesn't need to be there.
What audio issues are you worried about? The only loss I can think of if you do it as recommended above is Auto Lip Sync won't work. But I doubt it will work in your setup anyway, as I don't think the Lumagen can pass audio back from the display to the AVR.


----------



## fatherom

Surge2018 said:


> What audio issues are you worried about? The only loss I can think of if you do it as recommended above is Auto Lip Sync won't work. But I doubt it will work in your setup anyway, as I don't think the Lumagen can pass audio back from the display to the AVR.


For me, I can't run audio from the lumagen to my AVR. I get too many audio drop outs. I've tried so many cables and such, but I still get drop outs enough to make movie watching unenjoyable. 

I run the separate audio out from each of my source devices to my avr. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Surge2018

fatherom said:


> For me, I can't run audio from the lumagen to my AVR. I get too many audio drop outs. I've tried so many cables and such, but I still get drop outs enough to make movie watching unenjoyable.
> I run the separate audio out from each of my source devices to my avr.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmm... that is odd - we have almost the same gear. I assume you have tried the Menu 0943 and 0944 to enable all common audio formats? Were you using HDMI output 1 on the Lumagen for audio out? And disable the audio from being output to HDMI 2.
On the Denon, I am using the HDMI input closest to the video output. This should not matter, but the Denon manual does say there is lower jitter if you use this input (input 7 on your 6500).
I guess it doesn't matter as you have a workaround...


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> The recommendation in the Lumagen manual is to connect the sources to the Lumagen and then to the display, and use the second output for audio from the Lumagen to the AVR. I did not try it with the Denon before the Lumagen because it's clear to me the image will suffer. It's another component in the chain, that doesn't need to be there.


From page 8 in the current Radiance Pro user manual on system configuration examples (bolded and colored by me): "3. Receiver in front of Radiance. Use an AVR in front of the Radiance to switch the video sources. Note that *some* AVR’s add artifacts to the video. So turn off all video processing in the AVR."

It may be clear to you that the image will *inevitably* suffer, but, obviously not to @jrp. Otherwise, it wouldn't be included as an acceptable component in the example configurations. I can't attest for any other AVR manufacturer than my Yamaha RX-A3080, but I don't suffer from audio dropouts, handshake disruptions or video deterioration (per an eminently qualified and extremely well regarded professional calibrator who has more than enough experience with all types of Lumagen configurations to be able to identify less than optimal video if it would have been present).


----------



## adrake23

PeterLarsson said:


> I have might run into a sever bug or my new unit is perhaps even broken. It started around lunch today while having a break and watch the Hobbit and sudden drop outs of picture happend the first minutes...
> 
> My setup: Raduiance Pro 4242
> Input 1: ATV
> Input 3: UHD Player Panasonic UB-820
> Input 4: Set top box Fiber TV
> Projector Sony VW790
> Processor/AVR: Arcam AVR390
> Downloaded and upgraded to the latest firmware two days ago and no problem
> 
> Started the system to watch a movie tonight - and no picture. I got really confused and tried to connect to ATV on input 1, no problem. I went back to input 3 where I have UHD 4k and just had a look in the menu and saw that input 3 was assigned to physicak input 2, and I went whaaat (see picture below)? I tried to change to 3 but impossible and it falled back to 2 all the time. Suddenly even if I was on Input 3 the menu showed input 1 (see 2nd picture below). The same behaviour on input 4, impossible to use Physical input 4 for input 4, also falled back to physical input 2. So when finally putting UHD player in physical HDMI port 2 I could get a picture since 2 was ok. So both 3 and 4 forces to input 2 now without any possibility to change to the right inputs, which makes me think my less than 3 weeks old Lumagen is broken.
> 
> What I did was to go back one version on the firmware, but the very same behaviour. Tried also a factory reset and then before upload config file I tried out assign 3 to input 3, which failed even if factory reset.
> 
> I am extremely worried. I live in Sweden and no close support and just invested a huge amount on Lumagen and soon Christmas .
> 
> Any suggestion on how to fix this? Anyone experienced anything similar?
> 
> Please see the pictures as examples below.
> View attachment 3067166
> 
> 
> View attachment 3067167


Are you able to restore from a backup?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

Surge2018 said:


> Hmm... that is odd - we have almost the same gear. I assume you have tried the Menu 0943 and 0944 to enable all common audio formats? Were you using HDMI output 1 on the Lumagen for audio out? And disable the audio from being output to HDMI 2.
> On the Denon, I am using the HDMI input closest to the video output. This should not matter, but the Denon manual does say there is lower jitter if you use this input (input 7 on your 6500).
> I guess it doesn't matter as you have a workaround...


Yeah I spent months trying all sorts of things. And working with lumagen to try to nail down the issue. Never was able to completely eliminate the audio drop outs unfortunately. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Cranking the volume only solves part of the problem. There are no moving Objects (which is what Atmos is suppose to have/do) - and it is basically channel based at 7.x.2. By telling the Altitude I don't have Center Heights, I get 7.x.4. And by some other non-traditional trickery, I can use my Wides and Rear Surrounds. It's not that the sound is awful (far from it), only that with that much attention to the greatly improved video, the audio is pretty pitiful and far below what those movies deserve. The Star Wars movies are classics and deserve the very best audio and video possible. They failed miserably on the audio side. But that's Disney !!!


Well, I guess I'll suffer when I watch them. Tonight it was Ant Man on 4K Blu-ray with friends that had never seen it. It looked spectacular. The audio track is outstanding too. In fact, it looked so good, I shot a bunch of screen shots after my guests left. Forgot Edgar Wright co-wrote the script - no wonder it's so funny at times !


----------



## blake

Surge2018 said:


> The recommendation in the Lumagen manual is to connect the sources to the Lumagen and then to the display, and use the second output for audio from the Lumagen to the AVR. I did not try it with the Denon before the Lumagen because it's clear to me the image will suffer. It's another component in the chain, that doesn't need to be there.
> What audio issues are you worried about? The only loss I can think of if you do it as recommended above is Auto Lip Sync won't work. But I doubt it will work in your setup anyway, as I don't think the Lumagen can pass audio back from the display to the AVR.


What’s the best way to deal with / correct lip sync issues with the Lumagen doing the switching ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PeterLarsson

adrake23 said:


> Are you able to restore from a backup?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, the 9Ghz input card is broken, shows "--" when putting the menu to see that. Also swapped the input card 18Ghz and 9Ghz and still "--" = broken. Very unlucky this happened three weeks after unpacking and installing the unit. Makes me a bit nervous since it is a major investment.Hope I was really unlucky and that the quality of the product components are generally really good. 

The support is world class, no complaints about that. The endless of question and answer swessions with Gordon and then a prompt reply from Jim too. So a world class product (I hope quality wise too) also have a support living uup to that. Good. Let us hope that there are spare parts in UK to I can get a replaqcement card before Christmas!


----------



## garyolearysteele

fatherom said:


> Yeah I spent months trying all sorts of things. And working with lumagen to try to nail down the issue. Never was able to completely eliminate the audio drop outs unfortunately.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did they ever replace the Lumagen or the Output cards ? I’m having a similar issue, I’ve still got a couple of things to try which I’m hopeful might fix the issue, I’ll share my findings if I find a solution.


----------



## garyolearysteele

blake said:


> What’s the best way to deal with / correct lip sync issues with the Lumagen doing the switching ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends on how accurate you need it but I recently used the Disney WOW calibration blu-ray, I’ve seen a fair few lip sync test patterns and I find most hard to judge by eye and ear. The spinning bar one the Disney disc uses I found easy to use and could see at 24hz I was 83ms behind. It will no doubt vary based on audio codec but without specialist tools that change got me close enough. My case audio was ahead so I changed it on the AVR, if video is ahead then change on lumagen.


----------



## Surge2018

I’ve just been setting audio delay by eye. I’ll try a test disc next. I have noticed it can vary on the Apple TV: Amazon Prime’s app seems to be 200ms whereas all other content I’ve tried is 100ms audio delay in my case. 
I have the audio running from the Lumagen into a Denon 8500, then to a tube preamp and a tube amp. So my audio delay may be longer than others’. Video is running straight from the Lumagen to the projector, without going through an AVR (the optimal setup to avoid artifacts and data loss). You can delay video in the Lumagen if necessary.


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> From page 8 in the current Radiance Pro user manual on system configuration examples (bolded and colored by me): "3. Receiver in front of Radiance. Use an AVR in front of the Radiance to switch the video sources. Note that *some* AVR’s add artifacts to the video. So turn off all video processing in the AVR."
> 
> It may be clear to you that the image will *inevitably* suffer, but, obviously not to @jrp. Otherwise, it wouldn't be included as an acceptable component in the example configurations. I can't attest for any other AVR manufacturer than my Yamaha RX-A3080, but I don't suffer from audio dropouts, handshake disruptions or video deterioration (per an eminently qualified and extremely well regarded professional calibrator who has more than enough experience with all types of Lumagen configurations to be able to identify less than optimal video if it would have been present).


Yeah, the manual also says you can connect an AVR between the Lumagen and the display. There are many ways to connect - doesn’t mean they are optimal in terms of image quality. 100% you’re adding some artifacts and image degradation; but why don’t you just try it without the AVR in the video chain and see for yourself?


----------



## 187crew003

Fwiw I am using a jvcrs600 on low lamp

Best picture to my eye (I am guessing my nits are in the 60-70 range with a 13’ throw on a -130” .7 gain screen) is using max light at 300. Low ratio 31 dynpad 2


----------



## Eric Lloyd

187crew003 said:


> Fwiw I am using a jvcrs600 on low lamp
> 
> Best picture to my eye (I am guessing my nits are in the 60-70 range with a 13’ throw on a -130” .7 gain screen) is using max light at 300. Low ratio 31 dynpad 2


I think there is something to be said for saturation of colors providing an exceptional contrast as a trade off for the wide dynamics of bright/dark in HDR. The saturation of colors seems to provide more of a window effect, but when you go for the wide dynamic range, you prob sacrifice a bit of the color saturation depending on your projector. Good thing is the lumagen can help you achieve either and let's us test and learn with minimal effort. Fun and excruciating all at the same time!


----------



## 187crew003

Eric Lloyd said:


> I think there is something to be said for saturation of colors providing an exceptional contrast as a trade off for the wide dynamics of bright/dark in HDR. The saturation of colors seems to provide more of a window effect, but when you go for the wide dynamic range, you prob sacrifice a bit of the color saturation depending on your projector. Good thing is the lumagen can help you achieve either and let's us test and learn with minimal effort. Fun and excruciating all at the same time!


exactly! I had it at all defaults for the latest FW (dynpad5, 31 lowratio, 350 maxlight) and the image just didnt pop like it did before. no super vibrant colors and slightly more dark. I went back to the settings i had prior and the image was back in all its glory.  experimenting is part of the fun imho.


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> Yeah, the manual also says you can connect an AVR between the Lumagen and the display. There are many ways to connect - doesn’t mean they are optimal in terms of image quality. 100% you’re adding some artifacts and image degradation; but why don’t you just try it without the AVR in the video chain and see for yourself?


I have no interest in devolving my configuration. I make more than occasional good use of my AVR's GUI and don't have to switch inputs on 2 separate devices (AVR & RP) each time I change video sources plus there was a cost saving when using the AVR as the switching device since I only need one video input to the Lumagen (4240 being less expensive than 4242, etc.). You seem to be intransigent with regards to your blanket condemnation of any alternative video pathway configuration, so why don't we just consider ourselves more than satisfied with our image processing and leave it at that???


----------



## Erod

Question I have as a potential new Lumagen buyer.

My understanding is that I need to run all my sources to the Lumagen first, then run audio to my Prepro and my video directly to the projector, correct?

How does that affect my Harmony remote and the HDMI switching between sources? Do I just put it in my Harmony program?


----------



## Karl Maga

Erod said:


> Question I have as a potential new Lumagen buyer.
> 
> My understanding is that I need to run all my sources to the Lumagen first, then run audio to my Prepro and my video directly to the projector, correct?
> 
> How does that affect my Harmony remote and the HDMI switching between sources? Do I just put it in my Harmony program?


Your Harmony will do all the switching. It works flawlessly, I’ve been using it as you described for over a year.


----------



## PeterLarsson

From one issue with a broken 9Ghz input card to buzz i have in my speakers. I have done basically everything to remove the ground loop everything in the same socket and so forth so ruled out everything except for my semi-fiber HDMI. As soon as removing from projector completely silence and soon as plugging into projector the buzz comes back.
So now to my question: been discussing this with the responsible for Sony in Sweden and he thinks that HDBase-T would solve the issue since it so connected to HDMI and the projector. The question is: will this be a potential problem to have a 2 m HDMI into a HDBase-T sender then cat6 to the receiver and a short HDMI to the projector. Will Lumagen handle this in a good way - do you guys know?


----------



## jbrinegar

Erod said:


> Question I have as a potential new Lumagen buyer.
> 
> My understanding is that I need to run all my sources to the Lumagen first, then run audio to my Prepro and my video directly to the projector, correct?
> 
> How does that affect my Harmony remote and the HDMI switching between sources? Do I just put it in my Harmony program?


I think you should try it both ways to see which you prefer. Intially, I ran all my sources to the lumagen and split audio to my avr and video to my PJ. But I missed having the AVR OSD. So I tried running my sources to the AVR first, then to the Lumagen, then to the PJ and I ended up preferring it this way. I notice no differences in video quality and I get my AVR OSD back. I havent had any dropouts this way either. YMMV, but worth a try to see which way you prefer


----------



## Erod

jbrinegar said:


> I think you should try it both ways to see which you prefer. Intially, I ran all my sources to the lumagen and split audio to my avr and video to my PJ. But I missed having the AVR OSD. So I tried running my sources to the AVR first, then to the Lumagen, then to the PJ and I ended up preferring it this way. I notice no differences in video quality and I get my AVR OSD back. I havent had any dropouts this way either. YMMV, but worth a try to see which way you prefer


Interesting. I, too, like my basic OSD with my Anthem, which is one of the reasons I'm reluctant to try the HTP-1, which has no OSD at all of any kind.


----------



## tigerhonaker

docrog said:


> I don't think that you should make such global declarative statements ("running video through an AVR before or after the Lumagen will result in picture quality degradation") based solely on your personal Denon experience. My RP (located in the video stream after my flagship Yamaha AVR) was calibrated by one of the most respected and knowledgeable Lumagen calibrators in the US. He found absolutely *NO *deterioration or compromise of the RP's final product or handshake issues (compared with those who use the RP as the video switcher) with any of my 4 video sources which range from HD to UHD. That calibration occurred more than 8 months ago and my RP continues to function flawlessly. According to your prior posts, you had positioned your RP in front of the Denon. I would be interested to know whether you ever attempted to position the RP after your Denon and, if so, what specific issues you may have encountered. I assume that the Denon, like the Yamaha, is capable of passing full [email protected] without any additional video processing and that your interconnect cables are not a potential contributor to your issues.


docrog,

I totally agree that running mine through the Marantz AV8805 then the RP had Zero effect on either Audio or Video.
And in my case like you the two (2) Professional Calibrators , Kris Deering & Chad Billheimer did mine.
I'm not saying that I couldn't be wrong but seriously I doubt it that those two (2) guys know their stuff !!!
Mine is staying hooked-up exactly the way it is ...............

I love being able to see what I'm doing looking at the screen when changing anything with the remotes.

Terry


----------



## Karl Maga

tigerhonaker said:


> docrog,
> 
> I totally agree that running mine through the Marantz AV8805 then the RP had Zero effect on either Audio or Video.
> And in my case like you the two (2) Professional Calibrators , Kris Deering & Chad Billheimer did mine.
> I'm not saying that I couldn't be wrong but seriously I doubt it that those two (2) guys know their stuff !!!
> Mine is staying hooked-up exactly the way it is ...............
> 
> I love being able to see what I'm doing looking at the screen when changing anything with the remotes.
> 
> Terry





jbrinegar said:


> I think you should try it both ways to see which you prefer. Intially, I ran all my sources to the lumagen and split audio to my avr and video to my PJ. But I missed having the AVR OSD. So I tried running my sources to the AVR first, then to the Lumagen, then to the PJ and I ended up preferring it this way. I notice no differences in video quality and I get my AVR OSD back. I havent had any dropouts this way either. YMMV, but worth a try to see which way you prefer


I had briefly tried sources to the 8805, and the 8805 to Lumagen, but the Volume OSD would sometimes trigger an aspect ratio change that reverted back once the Volume indicator disappeared. 

Perhaps a RP setting could negate that small annoyance. I’d like to have the OSD, but not if it triggers aspect ratio changes while simply adjusting the volume.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Karl Maga said:


> I had briefly tried sources to the 8805, and the 8805 to Lumagen, but the Volume OSD would sometimes trigger an aspect ratio change that reverted back once the Volume indicator disappeared.
> 
> Perhaps a RP setting could negate that small annoyance. I’d like to have the OSD, but not if it triggers aspect ratio changes while simply adjusting the volume.


Karl,

That would be Totally Annoying *^^^*
Thankfully I Do-Not have that issue and just in case I'll keep All-my-Fingers-Crossed. **

Terry


----------



## dlinsley

Karl Maga said:


> I had briefly tried sources to the 8805, and the 8805 to Lumagen, but the Volume OSD would sometimes trigger an aspect ratio change that reverted back once the Volume indicator disappeared.


Does the 8805 not have a screen type setting? The Anthem (MRX1120) and Arcam (AV40) let you specify the screen type (16:9 or 2.35:1), and move the OSD up for the 2.35:1 "zoom" scope setting.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Is there any specific advantage of getting Lumagen setup done on site while its hooked to AVR and projector or shipping it for remote setup by a professional is equally good? 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

Surge2018 said:


> I’ve just been setting audio delay by eye. I’ll try a test disc next. I have noticed it can vary on the Apple TV: Amazon Prime’s app seems to be 200ms whereas all other content I’ve tried is 100ms audio delay in my case.
> I have the audio running from the Lumagen into a Denon 8500, then to a tube preamp and a tube amp. So my audio delay may be longer than others’. Video is running straight from the Lumagen to the projector, without going through an AVR (the optimal setup to avoid artifacts and data loss). You can delay video in the Lumagen if necessary.


Apple tv is problematic for some, particularly with prime, from enough posts on the thread here. If you have an iPhone apple have a solution for fixing the Apple TV.






Use Apple TV to play audio throughout your home


Apple TV can serve as a hub for playing audio throughout your home.



support.apple.com





It is the Apple TV that is the problem though so fixing it elsewhere won't do it.


----------



## Mike_WI

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is there any specific advantage of getting Lumagen setup done on site while its hooked to AVR and projector or shipping it for remote setup by a professional is equally good?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


To use if for calibration it needs to be on site.


----------



## woofer

187crew003 said:


> exactly! I had it at all defaults for the latest FW (dynpad5, 31 lowratio, 350 maxlight) and the image just didnt pop like it did before. no super vibrant colors and slightly more dark. I went back to the settings i had prior and the image was back in all its glory.  experimenting is part of the fun imho.


What were your previous settings..?


----------



## scrowe

PeterLarsson said:


> From one issue with a broken 9Ghz input card to buzz i have in my speakers. I have done basically everything to remove the ground loop everything in the same socket and so forth so ruled out everything except for my semi-fiber HDMI. As soon as removing from projector completely silence and soon as plugging into projector the buzz comes back.
> So now to my question: been discussing this with the responsible for Sony in Sweden and he thinks that HDBase-T would solve the issue since it so connected to HDMI and the projector. The question is: will this be a potential problem to have a 2 m HDMI into a HDBase-T sender then cat6 to the receiver and a short HDMI to the projector. Will Lumagen handle this in a good way - do you guys know?


I could be wrong but isn’t the clue in the name - *HD*Base-T in that it compresses the Video at either end to send, but is only suitable for HD signals. I could be wrong, but I’m sure I read 4k signals coukd not be done with the current specification of the extender devices. I would worry about compromising the video anyway.

Edit later: Looks like devices on Amazon can do up to 4K/30, can’t see any claiming 4K/60.


----------



## Surge2018

Erod said:


> Question I have as a potential new Lumagen buyer.
> My understanding is that I need to run all my sources to the Lumagen first, then run audio to my Prepro and my video directly to the projector, correct?


Yes, this is the optimal setup. Running the video signal through your receiver WILL degrade the signal, there is no question about that. Now, maybe you won't notice it, in which case there's nothing wrong with that. But it's not debatable that extending the path your video signal takes, especially through unnecessary components is going to degrade the signal.
I use the Denon app to control the receiver, so I have no need for the OSD.

You're probably also going to improve the audio quality by running audio only to your receiver. Denon goes as far as to say that you should use HDMI input 7, which is the port physically closest to the HDMI output port, for the best audio and video quality, because it minimizes jitter. So there is definitely an impact to the quality of the sound and video based on what you ask the AVR to do, or not do. (And I have the top of the line model from Denon.)

So make sure you buy the Lumagen model with all of the necessary number of inputs, and outputs.


----------



## Surge2018

Wanted to bump my question about DynPad, while we wait for an answer from Jim at Lumagen and/or Kris D. Does anyone know what exactly DynPad does? I understand it controls how the scene transitions from dark to light or how it uses the available light your display can produce. But what does a setting of 5 do vs 2, for example? I know that the lower the setting the brighter the image. From reading Jim's last post, it seems like you want a lower DynPad setting if your display has less light to work with; is that correct? In other words, if your display's peak brightness is higher, you want to use a higher DynPad setting.


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> Wanted to bump my question about DynPad, while we wait for an answer from Jim at Lumagen and/or Kris D. Does anyone know what exactly DynPad does? I understand it controls how the scene transitions from dark to light or how it uses the available light your display can produce. But what does a setting of 5 do vs 2, for example? I know that the lower the setting the brighter the image. From reading Jim's last post, it seems like you want a lower DynPad setting if your display has less light to work with; is that correct? In other words, if your display's peak brightness is higher, you want to use a higher DynPad setting.


The way I understand it - when a new scene is detected, the Radiance Pro has to decide on a tone map for that scene. Where the scene brightness is getting close to or above the value calculated from your DML + ratio (the calculated number shown under it in the HDR menu), it has to decide how much of the top end of the luminance range to reserve for highlights that may come up in the scene that it has no way of knowing about. Lower values of pad (short for padding) reserve less luminance range for possible highlights. This results in an image that will be on average brighter (as more of the projector luminance range will be able to be used for a given scene at the start of the scene) but because there is much less headroom between the level used in that scene and the peak white capability it means that you then have to compress and ultimately clip highlights into a much smaller "above the start of the scene" highlight range.

If you have very little light to work with, you probably can't afford to reserve very much of it as your normal image will be unreasonably dim, but if you are working with a higher brightness level then you can happily reserve some significant brightness above the start of the scene for being able to display better the highlight details that may come up in the scene.

I'm probably a bit wrong on some of the very fine detail of how this works - and there has also recently been the addition of the auto mode for pad setting - but that's I'm sure the basic principle of it.


----------



## Erod

Surge2018 said:


> Yes, this is the optimal setup. Running the video signal through your receiver WILL degrade the signal, there is no question about that. Now, maybe you won't notice it, in which case there's nothing wrong with that. But it's not debatable that extending the path your video signal takes, especially through unnecessary components is going to degrade the signal.
> I use the Denon app to control the receiver, so I have no need for the OSD.
> 
> You're probably also going to improve the audio quality by running audio only to your receiver. Denon goes as far as to say that you should use HDMI input 7, which is the port physically closest to the HDMI output port, for the best audio and video quality, because it minimizes jitter. So there is definitely an impact to the quality of the sound and video based on what you ask the AVR to do, or not do. (And I have the top of the line model from Denon.)
> 
> So make sure you buy the Lumagen model with all of the necessary number of inputs, and outputs.


In my Anthem, I set up audio profiles for each source based on ARC measurements and whatnot. I guess I wouldn't be able to do that if I go straight to the Lumagen? Not necessarily a big deal, but not all settings are exactly the same for each.

I'm buying from Kris Deering, so I'm sure he'll know.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> I could be wrong but isn’t the clue in the name - *HD*Base-T in that it compresses the Video at either end to send, but is only suitable for HD signals. I could be wrong, but I’m sure I read 4k signals coukd not be done with the current specification of the extender devices. I would worry about compromising the video anyway.
> 
> Edit later: Looks like devices on Amazon can do up to 4K/30, can’t see any claiming 4K/60.


In current guise HDBT has about 10G bandwidth, which leaves it short for the fattest 4K signals. Boxes on the market either limit supported formats, or silently drop bit depth / colour format in the transmit end, or use VESA DSC which is a "visually lossless" compression scheme. It is measurably lossy but has apparently been judged to be indistinguishable from uncompressed, though I'm sure there are ways to make show itself up with test images.

New chipset based boxes are on the horizon (VS3000 based) which will support apparently 18G HDMI formats uncompressed (it is only 16G at the HDBT level because HDBT uses an encoding with less redundancy). Not seen any for sale yet.

I would say though if going HDBT because of a thought from a dealer that this will provide some kind of isolation between Radiance / AVR / prepro and the projector, to be careful and make sure the dealer underwrites this will be a fix; I certainly wouldn't want to bet they're fully isolated...


----------



## Killroy

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *120420 FW*
> - _Posted 121420_
> Fix for the new ZY521 rs232 command added in 120320 update, use 'H' or 'N' for sensitivity.
> Bugfix for changing styles with memories sometimes causing an incorrect change in the colorspace gamut convert setting.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
> _Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


I had skipped the previous version due to lack of time so when I saw this one I realized I missed one. Call me crazy (many people have), but things look pretty damn good with the newer two firmwares.

Thanks guys!


----------



## mindedc

I've been a switch on the lumagen guy for a year and after getting a new audio processor I couldn't get lip sync working properly across all my sources (various apps on shield, kodi on an odroid, bd player and a bunch of game consoles on a dedicated HDMI switch). I moved to using my preamp which has individual delay per source and I have it all working perfectly now.... I can't discern any artifacts introduced by the preamp but I also disabled the GUI as it bleeds over the 2.35:1 area and forces an auto aspect switch when I volume up/down/mute... I have control 4 use the lumagen for displaying volume and mute any...


----------



## jazzrock

mindedc said:


> I've been a switch on the lumagen guy for a year and after getting a new audio processor I couldn't get lip sync working properly across all my sources (various apps on shield, kodi on an odroid, bd player and a bunch of game consoles on a dedicated HDMI switch). I moved to using my preamp which has individual delay per source and I have it all working perfectly now.... I can't discern any artifacts introduced by the preamp but I also disabled the GUI as it bleeds over the 2.35:1 area and forces an auto aspect switch when I volume up/down/mute... I have control 4 use the lumagen for displaying volume and mute any...


If I understand correctly you use the Lumagen for switching. How then do you get c4 to display your processor volume by using the lumagen?


----------



## Karl Maga

mindedc said:


> I've been a switch on the lumagen guy for a year and after getting a new audio processor I couldn't get lip sync working properly across all my sources (various apps on shield, kodi on an odroid, bd player and a bunch of game consoles on a dedicated HDMI switch). I moved to using my preamp which has individual delay per source and I have it all working perfectly now.... I can't discern any artifacts introduced by the preamp but I also disabled the GUI as it bleeds over the 2.35:1 area and forces an auto aspect switch when I volume up/down/mute... I have control 4 use the lumagen for displaying volume and mute any...


I’d love a preamp with individual lip sync adjustments; which one are you using?


----------



## Kris Deering

tigerhonaker said:


> Karl,
> 
> That would be Totally Annoying *^^^*
> Thankfully I Do-Not have that issue and just in case I'll keep All-my-Fingers-Crossed. **
> 
> Terry


You don't have a scope setup with auto aspect, so it would never be an issue for you!


----------



## PeterLarsson

scrowe said:


> I could be wrong but isn’t the clue in the name - *HD*Base-T in that it compresses the Video at either end to send, but is only suitable for HD signals. I could be wrong, but I’m sure I read 4k signals coukd not be done with the current specification of the extender devices. I would worry about compromising the video anyway.
> 
> Edit later: Looks like devices on Amazon can do up to 4K/30, can’t see any claiming 4K/60.


Thanks 😊 HDBase-T is the future of HDMI as far as I understand and there are a lot of devices supporting 18gbs meaning [email protected] Running HDMI in a ethernet cable instead of copper.
Since there is nothing that can transfer the ground loop i thought it could be a good idea - however I have no clue how Lumagen will deal with this. I thought before I buy this I will listen to you and see if someone have experience around this.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks 😊 HDBase-T is the future of HDMI as far as I understand and there are a lot of devices supporting 18gbs meaning [email protected] Running HDMI in a ethernet cable instead of copper.
> Since there is nothing that can transfer the ground loop i thought it could be a good idea - however I have no clue how Lumagen will deal with this. I thought before I buy this I will listen to you and see if someone have experience around this.


Sounds like you're being sold to. HDBT doesn't feel like the future of HDMI at the moment. As I said above, the current devices are working with a 10G physical layer with some tricks to get to 18G (DSC visually lossless compression, etc), and the next gen that as of yet isn't really launched only gets to 16G which is the bare minimum for transmitting a 18G signal (HDBT disposes with some of the redundancy of coding that HDMI has). 

I'll be very surprised if HDBT ever get much higher than 16G on a single piece of copper as there aren't faster than 10G copper ethernet standards, which gives an indication of the base capacity of CAT cable.. Which leaves HDBT in a funny place really; no shipping true 18G lossless solutions (yet) and no obvious roadmap to achieve the HDMI2.1 rates which are already shipping in TV land (though not in use for projectors).

That doesn't make it a bad solution, but the second coming it isn't .

I also wouldn't like to take bets that any particular HDBT setup provides full galvanic isolation between ends, so take advice from dealer on units - and cabling connections - they know to result in an isolated connection.

I have had a HDBT setup running on the Lumagen output (18G DSC Atlona TX/RX). Never checked the electrical isolation. Worked reasonably well. I switched to fibre as I felt it was perhaps a little more robust; I had seen the occasional situation where the TX or the RX of the HDBT would need a power cycle. Atlona are one of the top tier brands and they had 5 or 6 firmware updates to deal with various quirks of the boxes over the time I had them; FW updates were annoying on the RX unit as it had to come off the ceiling to do it. Never noticed the compression in action.


----------



## MDesigns

audioguy said:


> Since I can no longer figure out (due to the new format on AVS) how to search in specific thread, I will ask a question that may have already been asked many times before.


Type what you want to Search in the "Search community" field on top. Then click "Search "..." in this discussion"


----------



## 187crew003

I have a question about outputs

Once in a while I was getting dropped signal for both audio and video. Would be for about 2 seconds for audio and about 6 seconds for video. This would happen during loud scenes. It happened about 3 times last night during the first half of TENET. 

I have been using output 1 for audio only to the AVR and output 2 which was setup as Both to the PJ. I tried to configure it so output 2 was video only but it wouldn’t let me. If I did change it to video only it would turn off output 1. I Was able to turn output 3 to video only while having output 1 stay audio only. 

So two questions. 1) would having the output 2 being both audio/video be a cause of dropouts? Due to be overloaded during loud dynamic parts of the film? 2) is there a way to get the configuration tone output 1 audio output 2 video? I 

I guess I can keep using output 1 and 3. I do forget which outputs are 18ghz and which are 9ghz. Any help would be appreciated!

B


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Sounds like you're being sold to. HDBT doesn't feel like the future of HDMI at the moment. As I said above, the current devices are working with a 10G physical layer with some tricks to get to 18G (DSC visually lossless compression, etc), and the next gen that as of yet isn't really launched only gets to 16G which is the bare minimum for transmitting a 18G signal (HDBT disposes with some of the redundancy of coding that HDMI has).
> 
> I'll be very surprised if HDBT ever get much higher than 16G on a single piece of copper as there aren't faster than 10G copper ethernet standards, which gives an indication of the base capacity of CAT cable.. Which leaves HDBT in a funny place really; no shipping true 18G lossless solutions (yet) and no obvious roadmap to achieve the HDMI2.1 rates which are already shipping in TV land (though not in use for projectors).
> 
> That doesn't make it a bad solution, but the second coming it isn't .
> 
> I also wouldn't like to take bets that any particular HDBT setup provides full galvanic isolation between ends, so take advice from dealer on units - and cabling connections - they know to result in an isolated connection.
> 
> I have had a HDBT setup running on the Lumagen output (18G DSC Atlona TX/RX). Never checked the electrical isolation. Worked reasonably well. I switched to fibre as I felt it was perhaps a little more robust; I had seen the occasional situation where the TX or the RX of the HDBT would need a power cycle. Atlona are one of the top tier brands and they had 5 or 6 firmware updates to deal with various quirks of the boxes over the time I had them; FW updates were annoying on the RX unit as it had to come off the ceiling to do it. Never noticed the compression in action.


Thanks, I will try and borrow a set of HDBase-T to test and see the result. My objective is to get rid och the buzz and hope this can be the solution since I have tried hardly everything to get rid of the ground loop.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks, I will try and borrow a set of HDBase-T to test and see the result. My objective is to get rid och the buzz and hope this can be the solution since I have tried hardly everything to get rid of the ground loop.


Please let us know how it behaves and whether it solves your problem.


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> I have a question about outputs
> 
> Once in a while I was getting dropped signal for both audio and video. Would be for about 2 seconds for audio and about 6 seconds for video. This would happen during loud scenes. It happened about 3 times last night during the first half of TENET.
> 
> I have been using output 1 for audio only to the AVR and output 2 which was setup as Both to the PJ. I tried to configure it so output 2 was video only but it wouldn’t let me. If I did change it to video only it would turn off output 1. I Was able to turn output 3 to video only while having output 1 stay audio only.
> 
> So two questions. 1) would having the output 2 being both audio/video be a cause of dropouts? Due to be overloaded during loud dynamic parts of the film? 2) is there a way to get the configuration tone output 1 audio output 2 video? I
> 
> I guess I can keep using output 1 and 3. I do forget which outputs are 18ghz and which are 9ghz. Any help would be appreciated!
> 
> B


If you have four outputs, and assuming they are both 18G (if they are not, they will say it under the output on the back panel), I would send audio from output 1 and video from output 4. Loud scenes would have no bearing on signal though. If you are getting audio dropouts only during intense scenes in a movie, that could be an amp issue.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> If you have four outputs, and assuming they are both 18G (if they are not, they will say it under the output on the back panel), I would send audio from output 1 and video from output 4. Loud scenes would have no bearing on signal though. If you are getting audio dropouts only during intense scenes in a movie, that could be an amp issue.


its not audio only dropouts. its the picture as well

I never had this issue prior to putting the lumagen in the chain, so its not the amps especially taking into account the video drops as well

why choose output 4 as opposed to output 3? using output 3 for video only seems to have solved the issue. I wont know again until i watch more movies.


----------



## jazzrock

187crew003 said:


> its not audio only dropouts. its the picture as well
> 
> I never had this issue prior to putting the lumagen in the chain, so its not the amps especially taking into account the video drops as well
> 
> why choose output 4 as opposed to output 3? using output 3 for video only seems to have solved the issue. I wont know again until i watch more movies.


I’m sure this is way too simple to be the actual issue but when I first read your post the first thing I thought of was the possibility of a loose cable somewhere. Maybe an HDMI loose enough to be rattled with high audio output.


----------



## sor

187crew003 said:


> its not audio only dropouts. its the picture as well
> 
> I never had this issue prior to putting the lumagen in the chain, so its not the amps especially taking into account the video drops as well
> 
> why choose output 4 as opposed to output 3? using output 3 for video only seems to have solved the issue. I wont know again until i watch more movies.


Possibly a vibration issue? I agree that it’s not like loud scenes would use more hdmi power since it’s all digital.


----------



## 187crew003

jazzrock said:


> I’m sure this is way too simple to be the actual issue but when I first read your post the first thing I thought of was the possibility of a loose cable somewhere. Maybe an HDMI loose enough to be rattled with high audio output.


i will definitely check that again...very very possible....since the rack is near the wall (outside) and it definitely rattles a bit

and could explain why changing outputs made a difference, cause it was snug


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> The way I understand it - when a new scene is detected, the Radiance Pro has to decide on a tone map for that scene. Where the scene brightness is getting close to or above the value calculated from your DML + ratio (the calculated number shown under it in the HDR menu), it has to decide how much of the top end of the luminance range to reserve for highlights that may come up in the scene that it has no way of knowing about. Lower values of pad (short for padding) reserve less luminance range for possible highlights. This results in an image that will be on average brighter (as more of the projector luminance range will be able to be used for a given scene at the start of the scene) but because there is much less headroom between the level used in that scene and the peak white capability it means that you then have to compress and ultimately clip highlights into a much smaller "above the start of the scene" highlight range.
> 
> If you have very little light to work with, you probably can't afford to reserve very much of it as your normal image will be unreasonably dim, but if you are working with a higher brightness level then you can happily reserve some significant brightness above the start of the scene for being able to display better the highlight details that may come up in the scene.
> 
> I'm probably a bit wrong on some of the very fine detail of how this works - and there has also recently been the addition of the auto mode for pad setting - but that's I'm sure the basic principle of it.


Thanks! This makes perfect sense, great explanation! 

Are you saying there‘s a new firmware update coming with an Auto DynPad option? 

Summarizing the above, is it correct to say:
If you have a bright display, then assuming your MaxLight and LowRatio are set correctly, you are giving the Radiance a wider range to work with than displays that are not as bright.
Therefore, DynPad doesn’t really directly correlate to your display’s brightness, you still have to set how much padding you prefer for your particular setup.
?


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> its not audio only dropouts. its the picture as well
> 
> I never had this issue prior to putting the lumagen in the chain, so its not the amps especially taking into account the video drops as well
> 
> why choose output 4 as opposed to output 3? using output 3 for video only seems to have solved the issue. I wont know again until i watch more movies.


Based on your comments, it appears that the first output card (output 1/2) is an 18G card and you were having issues (don't know what kind of cables you have, but I've seen people have issues with that run of JVC model with 18G cards). When you switched to the other output card (output 3/4), you are now using a card that is 9G (otherwise you wouldn't be able to make output 3 video). This is why Lumagen always says that some projectors/displays are more sensitive to output rate and work better with the lower rate. Sometimes this is a projector thing, sometimes a cable thing. Without knowing what cables you are using, hard to say which one it could be directly.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> Based on your comments, it appears that the first output card (output 1/2) is an 18G card and you were having issues (don't know what kind of cables you have, but I've seen people have issues with that run of JVC model with 18G cards). When you switched to the other output card (output 3/4), you are now using a card that is 9G (otherwise you wouldn't be able to make output 3 video). This is why Lumagen always says that some projectors/displays are more sensitive to output rate and work better with the lower rate. Sometimes this is a projector thing, sometimes a cable thing. Without knowing what cables you are using, hard to say which one it could be directly.


Im using the monoprice 8k ones you recommended, from lumagen to avr 2m and from the lumagen to the PJ a 5m

thanks for all the feedback! excuse my ignorance but what are the benefits/downsides of using a 9ghz card as opposed to 18ghz?>


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> Thanks! This makes perfect sense, great explanation!
> 
> Are you saying there‘s a new firmware update coming with an Auto DynPad option?
> 
> Summarizing the above, is it correct to say:
> If you have a bright display, then assuming your MaxLight and LowRatio are set correctly, you are giving the Radiance a wider range to work with than displays that are not as bright.
> Therefore, DynPad doesn’t really directly correlate to your display’s brightness, you still have to set how much padding you prefer for your particular setup.
> ?


Sorry, no, I made a mistake there - the Auto function isn't DynPad, it is for the DeSat control. Original post edited.


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> Im using the monoprice 8k ones you recommended, from lumagen to avr 2m and from the lumagen to the PJ a 5m
> 
> thanks for all the feedback! excuse my ignorance but what are the benefits/downsides of using a 9ghz card as opposed to 18ghz?>


For 24p content there is zero difference. For 4K60p content, the output is dithered from 10 bit to 8 bit and the output color space is 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2. I doubt most people would see any difference at all, even in a side by side comparison.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> For 24p content there is zero difference. For 4K60p content, the output is dithered from 10 bit to 8 bit and the output color space is 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2. I doubt most people would see any difference at all, even in a side by side comparison.


ok cool good to know. I don't watch any 4k60 content anyhow. both movies on 4k disc are awful, and ATV 4k content I have downconverted to 4k24 so there is no jutter


----------



## jrp

A few comments on recent posts:

For HDBT I have had too many dealers with too many problems at 4k to do anything but recommend against HDBT for 4k. This history is without a Radiance Pro in the mix. So, HDBT would be the last resort. The only brand I have heard positive comments on is the AVPro Store extenders.

If you are considering HDBT to mitigate a ground-loop much better would be to eliminate the ground loop. This can be difficult of course. You can try temporarily running an extension cord from the equipment outlet to the projector. See if this mitigates teh ground loop.

Note that the projector should be on the same circuit as all the other equipment with the shortest power wire length possible. I have our Lumagen Demo Theater wired with one run at 120 VAC, and one at 240 VAC, with each going first to the projector an then to the equipment. There should not be anything but the audio/video equipment on that circuit.

Another thing to try is a low-gauge stranded wire to ground the chassis of the projector/TV to your power conditioner by the rest of the A/V equipment. This can redirect the ground-loop current away for the A/V signaling paths. Best to eliminate the ground-loop by rewiring but this has helped in some systems to mitigate ground loops.

True transformer isolation can also mitigate ground loops. I am referring to the wall power on this. However, switching to balanced audio to the power amps has resolved hum issues in the past. Even if you have RCA out on your preamp and RCA in our your power amp you can put an audio isolation transformer between on each channel.

I have helped some dealers get HDBT working when there was no other choice. Unfortunately this is often with CAT5E or CAT6 "because it's already in the wall," which make it even more unlikely it will work. Even with CAT7 cable, the demands for 4k HDMI are beyond the cable's design specifications. This shows the cables exceed their specifications that 4k HDMI HDBT works at all.

HDBT transmitters and receivers do (I believe) all use series microwave-capacitors to provide some ground-loop isolation. This is because they are based on LAN interfaces which use the series microwave capacitors for the same reason. This can provide some isolation to mitigate a system ground loop. However, these capacitors often have a maximum voltage rating in the 16 volt range and so might have reliability issues if there is a significant ground-loop.

I recommend against trying to send 18 GHz across an HDBT extender. At the moment this is converted to compressed 9 GHz. Better would be that if you are using it on the Radiance Pro output, select 9 GHz output. In fact use a 9 GHz output card for the Pro output since you don't want to run at 18 GHz and with a 9 GHz output card there will be fewer HDMI issues. The dither from the Radiance Pro used for 9 GHz 4k60 is extremely good and is based on human factors to look as good as an 18 GHz connection. I cannot tell any difference between 9 GHz and 18 GHz from the Pro to our RS4500 doing an A to B compare with the toughest HDR content I could find running at 4k60. So use a 9 GHz output card from the Pro, then a 2 to 3 meter 18 GHz cable to the HDBT transmitter, then use a 2 to 3 meter cable from the receiver to the projector/TV. As always never use less than a 2 meter HDMI cable due to HDMI cable EQ reasons.

Keep the CAT cable length as short as possible, even if it means a longer HDMI cable to the transmitter or from the receiver. If the CAT cable is not new, consider having a professional re-terminate the CAT cable RJ45 connectors, making sure to keeping the twist all the way to the RJ45. If you have issues, consider shortening the CAT cable by a foot or two if possible. This is like taking a 1 foot by 40 foot wave-trough down to 1 by 38 feet. It changes the reflection points and where wave peaks and nulls are. Shortening the CAT cable a foot or two has on a number of occasions taken a non-working HDBT system and got it working.

All the mitigation ideas above depend on your particular system topology. So, you need to test the various options to see if one or more help.

To reiterate, HDBT is a last resort, and IMO should be avoided for 4k.

==========

If you have dropouts on a few scenes, it is likely that the HDMI signal transition pattern for these scenes is more toward the worst-case HDMI transition pattern. What it means is your cabling is "almost there but not quite." Ground loops can be part of the issue, but more likely you just need a better HDMI cable from the Radiance Pro to the projector/TV, or if the projector/TV has issues running at 18 GHz (many do), that you should program the Radiance Pro to output a maximum of 9 GHz.

Note, it is possible that a video dropout causes an audio dropout, or vice versa. So if both are dropping out, you have to figure out which one is the root cause.

Oh ... and wiggle and push-in every HDMI cable to make sure it is properly seated. I have on several occasion had dropout that turned out to be I bumped an HDMI plug and it was not seated properly.


----------



## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> Wanted to bump my question about DynPad, while we wait for an answer from Jim at Lumagen and/or Kris D. Does anyone know what exactly DynPad does? I understand it controls how the scene transitions from dark to light or how it uses the available light your display can produce. But what does a setting of 5 do vs 2, for example? I know that the lower the setting the brighter the image. From reading Jim's last post, it seems like you want a lower DynPad setting if your display has less light to work with; is that correct? In other words, if your display's peak brightness is higher, you want to use a higher DynPad setting.


bobof's response is good.

I will add that with DTM "adaptation" on, the Radiance Pro can change the transfer function intra-scene to a certain extent. So if a scene needs a higher MaxCLL as it progresses the Pro can adapt. However, to keep this intra-scene change from being visible the Pro limits how fast the transfer function adapts. So, a scene with a fast change in brightness would still potentially have some clipping with a lower Dyn Pad setting. It is this type of scene that a higher Dyn Pad helps.

Dyn Pad, as bobof suggests, is how much headroom the Pro gives the scene, and the Radiance Pro has to decide this on the very first frame of the scene not knowing what's coming. The most recent releases change how MaxCLL for the scene affects the scene. While Dyn Pad of 2 is still excellent for almost all scenes, I am now suggesting people test with 3, 4, and 5 and see which one is preferred. And of course if you like Dyn Pad = 2 that is still an excellent choice.

I realize a lot of people want a "one size fits all" answer, but as anyone who actually understands video knows, you cannot set one number and have it be optimal for all theaters. That is why we always try to give options with a recommended range (e.g. 4 to 6x for Max Light, 2 to 5 for Dyn Pad). We also often give excessive options (e.g. Dyn Pad = 1 or 7, or Sharpness = 7) that we would not expect anyone to use, but allow you to see what a "little too much" looks like and back off. The defaults work in many cases but you can choose your preference with a bit of viewing and get optimal results specific to your theater.

Someone asked why a lower Dyn Pad was recommended for a less-bright projector. The reason is with less brightness, to me, it makes sense to have a very occasional potentially visible clip so the vast majority of scenes look brighter, and better.


----------



## Nima

Does Dynpad tie into laser dimming of a projector like my Epson Ls 10000 or does it have no correlation to it? What about low ratio and laser dimming?


----------



## 187crew003

jrp said:


> A few comments on recent posts:
> 
> For HDBT I have had too many dealers with too many problems at 4k to do anything but recommend against HDBT for 4k. This history is without a Radiance Pro in the mix. So, HDBT would be the last resort. The only brand I have heard positive comments on is the AVPro Store extenders.
> 
> If you are considering HDBT to mitigate a ground-loop much better would be to eliminate the ground loop. This can be difficult of course. You can try temporarily running an extension cord from the equipment outlet to the projector. See if this mitigates teh ground loop.
> 
> Note that the projector should be on the same circuit as all the other equipment with the shortest power wire length possible. I have our Lumagen Demo Theater wired with one run at 120 VAC, and one at 240 VAC, with each going first to the projector an then to the equipment. There should not be anything but the audio/video equipment on that circuit.
> 
> Another thing to try is a low-gauge stranded wire to ground the chassis of the projector/TV to your power conditioner by the rest of the A/V equipment. This can redirect the ground-loop current away for the A/V signaling paths. Best to eliminate the ground-loop by rewiring but this has helped in some systems to mitigate ground loops.
> 
> True transformer isolation can also mitigate ground loops. I am referring to the wall power on this. However, switching to balanced audio to the power amps has resolved hum issues in the past. Even if you have RCA out on your preamp and RCA in our your power amp you can put an audio isolation transformer between on each channel.
> 
> I have helped some dealers get HDBT working when there was no other choice. Unfortunately this is often with CAT5E or CAT6 "because it's already in the wall," which make it even more unlikely it will work. Even with CAT7 cable, the demands for 4k HDMI are beyond the cable's design specifications. This shows the cables exceed their specifications that 4k HDMI HDBT works at all.
> 
> HDBT transmitters and receivers do (I believe) all use series microwave-capacitors to provide some ground-loop isolation. This is because they are based on LAN interfaces which use the series microwave capacitors for the same reason. This can provide some isolation to mitigate a system ground loop. However, these capacitors often have a maximum voltage rating in the 16 volt range and so might have reliability issues if there is a significant ground-loop.
> 
> I recommend against trying to send 18 GHz across an HDBT extender. At the moment this is converted to compressed 9 GHz. Better would be that if you are using it on the Radiance Pro output, select 9 GHz output. In fact use a 9 GHz output card for the Pro output since you don't want to run at 18 GHz and with a 9 GHz output card there will be fewer HDMI issues. The dither from the Radiance Pro used for 9 GHz 4k60 is extremely good and is based on human factors to look as good as an 18 GHz connection. I cannot tell any difference between 9 GHz and 18 GHz from the Pro to our RS4500 doing an A to B compare with the toughest HDR content I could find running at 4k60. So use a 9 GHz output card from the Pro, then a 2 to 3 meter 18 GHz cable to the HDBT transmitter, then use a 2 to 3 meter cable from the receiver to the projector/TV. As always never use less than a 2 meter HDMI cable due to HDMI cable EQ reasons.
> 
> Keep the CAT cable length as short as possible, even if it means a longer HDMI cable to the transmitter or from the receiver. If the CAT cable is not new, consider having a professional re-terminate the CAT cable RJ45 connectors, making sure to keeping the twist all the way to the RJ45. If you have issues, consider shortening the CAT cable by a foot or two if possible. This is like taking a 1 foot by 40 foot wave-trough down to 1 by 38 feet. It changes the reflection points and where wave peaks and nulls are. Shortening the CAT cable a foot or two has on a number of occasions taken a non-working HDBT system and got it working.
> 
> All the mitigation ideas above depend on your particular system topology. So, you need to test the various options to see if one or more help.
> 
> To reiterate, HDBT is a last resort, and IMO should be avoided for 4k.
> 
> ==========
> 
> If you have dropouts on a few scenes, it is likely that the HDMI signal transition pattern for these scenes is more toward the worst-case HDMI transition pattern. What it means is your cabling is "almost there but not quite." Ground loops can be part of the issue, but more likely you just need a better HDMI cable from the Radiance Pro to the projector/TV, or if the projector/TV has issues running at 18 GHz (many do), that you should program the Radiance Pro to output a maximum of 9 GHz.
> 
> Note, it is possible that a video dropout causes an audio dropout, or vice versa. So if both are dropping out, you have to figure out which one is the root cause.
> 
> Oh ... and wiggle and push-in every HDMI cable to make sure it is properly seated. I have on several occasion had dropout that turned out to be I bumped an HDMI plug and it was not seated properly.


Thank you Jim. I’ll try all of the above should I experience more drops. But I think the 9ghz change for the output was the cause


----------



## PeterLarsson

jrp said:


> A few comments on recent posts:
> 
> For HDBT I have had too many dealers with too many problems at 4k to do anything but recommend against HDBT for 4k. This history is without a Radiance Pro in the mix. So, HDBT would be the last resort. The only brand I have heard positive comments on is the AVPro Store extenders.
> 
> If you are considering HDBT to mitigate a ground-loop much better would be to eliminate the ground loop. This can be difficult of course. You can try temporarily running an extension cord from the equipment outlet to the projector. See if this mitigates teh ground loop.
> 
> Note that the projector should be on the same circuit as all the other equipment with the shortest power wire length possible. I have our Lumagen Demo Theater wired with one run at 120 VAC, and one at 240 VAC, with each going first to the projector an then to the equipment. There should not be anything but the audio/video equipment on that circuit.
> 
> Another thing to try is a low-gauge stranded wire to ground the chassis of the projector/TV to your power conditioner by the rest of the A/V equipment. This can redirect the ground-loop current away for the A/V signaling paths. Best to eliminate the ground-loop by rewiring but this has helped in some systems to mitigate ground loops.
> 
> True transformer isolation can also mitigate ground loops. I am referring to the wall power on this. However, switching to balanced audio to the power amps has resolved hum issues in the past. Even if you have RCA out on your preamp and RCA in our your power amp you can put an audio isolation transformer between on each channel.
> 
> I have helped some dealers get HDBT working when there was no other choice. Unfortunately this is often with CAT5E or CAT6 "because it's already in the wall," which make it even more unlikely it will work. Even with CAT7 cable, the demands for 4k HDMI are beyond the cable's design specifications. This shows the cables exceed their specifications that 4k HDMI HDBT works at all.
> 
> HDBT transmitters and receivers do (I believe) all use series microwave-capacitors to provide some ground-loop isolation. This is because they are based on LAN interfaces which use the series microwave capacitors for the same reason. This can provide some isolation to mitigate a system ground loop. However, these capacitors often have a maximum voltage rating in the 16 volt range and so might have reliability issues if there is a significant ground-loop.
> 
> I recommend against trying to send 18 GHz across an HDBT extender. At the moment this is converted to compressed 9 GHz. Better would be that if you are using it on the Radiance Pro output, select 9 GHz output. In fact use a 9 GHz output card for the Pro output since you don't want to run at 18 GHz and with a 9 GHz output card there will be fewer HDMI issues. The dither from the Radiance Pro used for 9 GHz 4k60 is extremely good and is based on human factors to look as good as an 18 GHz connection. I cannot tell any difference between 9 GHz and 18 GHz from the Pro to our RS4500 doing an A to B compare with the toughest HDR content I could find running at 4k60. So use a 9 GHz output card from the Pro, then a 2 to 3 meter 18 GHz cable to the HDBT transmitter, then use a 2 to 3 meter cable from the receiver to the projector/TV. As always never use less than a 2 meter HDMI cable due to HDMI cable EQ reasons.
> 
> Keep the CAT cable length as short as possible, even if it means a longer HDMI cable to the transmitter or from the receiver. If the CAT cable is not new, consider having a professional re-terminate the CAT cable RJ45 connectors, making sure to keeping the twist all the way to the RJ45. If you have issues, consider shortening the CAT cable by a foot or two if possible. This is like taking a 1 foot by 40 foot wave-trough down to 1 by 38 feet. It changes the reflection points and where wave peaks and nulls are. Shortening the CAT cable a foot or two has on a number of occasions taken a non-working HDBT system and got it working.
> 
> All the mitigation ideas above depend on your particular system topology. So, you need to test the various options to see if one or more help.
> 
> To reiterate, HDBT is a last resort, and IMO should be avoided for 4k.
> 
> ==========
> 
> If you have dropouts on a few scenes, it is likely that the HDMI signal transition pattern for these scenes is more toward the worst-case HDMI transition pattern. What it means is your cabling is "almost there but not quite." Ground loops can be part of the issue, but more likely you just need a better HDMI cable from the Radiance Pro to the projector/TV, or if the projector/TV has issues running at 18 GHz (many do), that you should program the Radiance Pro to output a maximum of 9 GHz.
> 
> Note, it is possible that a video dropout causes an audio dropout, or vice versa. So if both are dropping out, you have to figure out which one is the root cause.
> 
> Oh ... and wiggle and push-in every HDMI cable to make sure it is properly seated. I have on several occasion had dropout that turned out to be I bumped an HDMI plug and it was not seated properly.


Excellent and thanks a lot for your extensive feedback in regards to my ground loop. The thing is that I actually have a quite long cable power the projector and I have all AV coming from the same socket. The problem started with my Sony VW790 (VW915 is US) and as soon as I plug in the HDMI in projector the buzz starts on my four back and four in the ceiling. The font is Procella P610 and driven by own amplifiers and those are not effected at all. I even tried to plug in the HDMI in a powered monitor and no buzz at all, and even made projektor powerless but stil the buzz. 

I bought one ground loop remover to but between mu AVR and amplifier but that didn't either help, so I think Sony somehow introduced this into my whole setup. What reminds is to test of HDBse-T would erase that particular problem. It is one of my last hopes.

I am running RCA to RCA from Arcam AVR (my weakest point) to amplifier. From AVR to Procella DA05 RCA to XLR. And there is not buzz on the three front speakers. I also tried RCA to XLR to amplifier for surround and height speakers, but that didn't help. So either I try this option with HDBase-T or a go for a Trinnov . Too expensive after all heavy investment this autumn, but of course this is alos an option if everything fails (or perhaps arvam AV40 would be the pic).

But anyway really appreciate to get so much good and detailed feedback - hope HDBase-T will resolve my issue and that the specs are correct and support 4k. My Lumagen has 9Ghz output so that might help in this case as you said.


----------



## dlinsley

PeterLarsson said:


> hope HDBase-T will resolve my issue and that the specs are correct and support 4k


Aren't some fiber, like Celerity, pure fiber and not hybrid with copper for EDID etc? Those could be a solution too.


----------



## Ironman1718

All,

I’ve just installed my new 4242 radiance pro. I’m getting great video but no audio through my trinnov 32. I have it hooked up correctly, the mute button is not pushed  .. any thoughts on why no audio? Thank you


----------



## J.Mike Ferrara

Hi Kris. Question: Should I upgrade to the latest firmware? Thx and Happy Holidays.


----------



## thrang

Having spent more time viewing content with 1204, I’m becoming increasingly convinced this may be the most significant updates for dynamic tone mapping in a long time.

The increased headroom allows for a higher max light value, which in turn seems to help improve color saturation, It also allows for a higher dpad which, along with the apparently new zone detection algorithms, reduced scene-cut fluctuations. And yet, the image contrast and brightness is superb.

Separately, the image seems a bit cleaner/less noisy in a subtle way, and shadow details are the best I can recall.

Great work by Pat and Jim, with an assist I’m sure to Mr. Deering...


----------



## Mike_WI

J.Mike Ferrara said:


> Hi Kris. Question: Should I upgrade to the latest firmware? Thx and Happy Holidays.


Why not?


----------



## giomania

I am having an issue with an Apple TV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR; it also switches off match frame rate and resolution when this occurs. I am wondering if there are any settings in the Radiance that can mitigate this issue?

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## wertman

Hey guys new to lumagen. Just got a lx-nz3. I know it not the top of the line high end projector but I was wondering if this could help with with picture quality? I am trying to read through threads but a lot of it is way over my head. Thanks in advance.


----------



## PeterLarsson

dlinsley said:


> Aren't some fiber, like Celerity, pure fiber and not hybrid with copper for EDID etc? Those could be a solution too.


Seems like I cant get that delievered to Sweden, but I will investigate if there are other brands... Thanks!


----------



## riddle

New fw is out...


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/radiance_pro120420.zip



120420- Posted 121420 Fix for the new ZY521 rs232 command added in 120320 update, use 'H' or 'N' for sensitivity. Bugfix for changing styles with memories sometimes causing an incorrect change in the colorspace gamut convert setting. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## adrake23

Applemike68 said:


> All,
> 
> I’ve just installed my new 4242 radiance pro. I’m getting great video but no audio through my trinnov 32. I have it hooked up correctly, the mute button is not pushed  .. any thoughts on why no audio? Thank you


Are you connecting to your Trinnov via Output on the Lumagen. If so, your issue may be in the Output setup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> I am having an issue with an Apple TV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR; it also switches off match frame rate and resolution when this occurs. I am wondering if there are any settings in the Radiance that can mitigate this issue?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Sounds like it is seeing two different EDIDS, maybe startup order. Are you using passthrough audio EDID? Maybe better to fix the EDID?


----------



## Surge2018

Kris Deering said:


> For 24p content there is zero difference. For 4K60p content, the output is dithered from 10 bit to 8 bit and the output color space is 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2. I doubt most people would see any difference at all, even in a side by side comparison.


How do you switch between 9 and 18 Gb output on the Lumagen? I haven’t seen this in the manual - I just want to check if it’s set correctly...


----------



## Ironman1718

adrake23 said:


> Are you connecting to your Trinnov via Output on the Lumagen. If so, your issue may be in the Output setup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hello, Since I posted around 3am my time (CST) I forgot to come back and delete my message. You are absolutely correct, that was my issue. Thanks...


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> Sounds like it is seeing two different EDIDS, maybe startup order. Are you using passthrough audio EDID? Maybe better to fix the EDID?


Thanks for the reply.

For video EDID, locatred here: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Src Video Formats

I am using the following options:

Interlaced: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
Rec2020: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
HDR: Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The other options are 1080p and 9 Ghz
HLG: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes

I think adjustments to either Rec2020 or HDR may help, but I am at a loss as to the difference between Use global and yes are, as HDR is set to "Yes" in the global setting. I guess I can try Auto and see if it makes a difference.

Mark


----------



## oldvinyl

giomania said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> For video EDID, locatred here: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Src Video Formats
> 
> I am using the following options:
> 
> Interlaced: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> Rec2020: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> HDR: Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The other options are 1080p and 9 Ghz
> HLG: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> 
> I think adjustments to either Rec2020 or HDR may help, but I am at a loss as to the difference between Use global and yes are, as HDR is set to "Yes" in the global setting. I guess I can try Auto and see if it makes a difference.
> 
> Mark


I would be interested if you find a solution. My setup is plagued with the same behavior on the AppleTV 4K. The AppleTV randomly reverts to 4K HDR and shuts off the frame rate/resolution matching.

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> For video EDID, locatred here: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Src Video Formats
> 
> I am using the following options:
> 
> Interlaced: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> Rec2020: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> HDR: Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The other options are 1080p and 9 Ghz
> HLG: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> 
> I think adjustments to either Rec2020 or HDR may help, but I am at a loss as to the difference between Use global and yes are, as HDR is set to "Yes" in the global setting. I guess I can try Auto and see if it makes a difference.
> 
> Mark


You didn't answer about what you're doing for audio EDID - that also has the potential to change the EDID presented to the source I recall.
The default I think passes back the audio bit of the EDID from the AVR, which could change what the AppleTV sees depending on the power on timing.
Better would be to fix it using the "Common Formats" or "Common Formats no Atmos" options.

Just ideas, but that behaviour of the AppleTV is exactly what it does when it sees a "new" EDID, turns off autoframerate and range and sets the UI to HDR.


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike_WI said:


> Why not?


After updating the firmware, and double checking all my HDR settings in the Lumagen, watched " Mulan " on 4K Blu-ray last night ( and Ant Man on 4K BR a couple of nights ago with the just prior firmware ). HDR / 4K has just never looked this good. With a little sharpening and the latest dynamic tone mapping, I can't see any reason not to install the latest
firmware.


----------



## giomania

bobof said:


> You didn't answer about what you're doing for audio EDID - that also has the potential to change the EDID presented to the source I recall.
> The default I think passes back the audio bit of the EDID from the AVR, which could change what the AppleTV sees depending on the power on timing.
> Better would be to fix it using the "Common Formats" or "Common Formats no Atmos" options.
> 
> Just ideas, but that behaviour of the AppleTV is exactly what it does when it sees a "new" EDID, turns off autoframerate and range and sets the UI to HDR.


Sorry, I have audio EDID set to "Common"


----------



## Surge2018

giomania said:


> I am having an issue with an Apple TV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR; it also switches off match frame rate and resolution when this occurs. I am wondering if there are any settings in the Radiance that can mitigate this issue?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Make sure you have Apple TV set to 4KSDR, not HDR, at all times (and 1080 SDR for HD content).
The Apple TV will automatically switch to HDR when needed, even when in SDR mode. If you have it in HDR mode, it will display SDR content in HDR, which won’t look great.

Also enable Match Frame Rate and Resolution. It will still autoscale 1080P to 4K though, so you have to manually switch to 1080 resolution to let the Lumagen do the scaling (recommended).


----------



## jbrinegar

oldvinyl said:


> I would be interested if you find a solution. My setup is plagued with the same behavior on the AppleTV 4K. The AppleTV randomly reverts to 4K HDR and shuts off the frame rate/resolution matching.
> 
> Thanks!


This will happen sometimes for me on startup. For me, its a handshake issue and I just need to experiment with the right device power on sequence.

I fix it by simply switching my projector input and back to force a new handshake.


----------



## bjorg

ccool96 said:


> You are using a Trinnov correct? Easiest way is just to link the “Lumagen DVD” to an UN-used input, like HDMI 2 on the Trinnov. Then in the Trinnov change HDMI 2 to use the “Physical Input” of whatever the Lumagen Audio is connected to.
> 
> That way it never changes sources on the Lumagen, so the video never changes, and while Control4 thinks it’s switching to HDMI 2 on the Trinnov, it’s actually still linked to the physical HDMI input that the Lumagen is connected too.


Just wanted to say _Thank you!_ We got this to work today. That totally fit the bill. Thanks again!


----------



## scrowe

Surge2018 said:


> Make sure you have Apple TV set to 4KSDR, not HDR, at all times (and 1080 SDR for HD content).
> The Apple TV will automatically switch to HDR when needed, even when in SDR mode. If you have it in HDR mode, it will display SDR content in HDR, which won’t look great.
> 
> Also enable Match Frame Rate and Resolution. It will still autoscale 1080P to 4K though, *so you have to manually switch to 1080 resolution to let the Lumagen do the scaling (recommended).*


Or set a Lumagen Memory to force AppleTV to automatically switch to 1080p via Lumagen' s EDID setting.


----------



## Peule_P

wertman said:


> Hey guys new to lumagen. Just got a lx-nz3. I know it not the top of the line high end projector but I was wondering if this could help with with picture quality? I am trying to read through threads but a lot of it is way over my head. Thanks in advance.


it sure will, but you gotta wonder is the investment worth it for your projector or perhaps better to invest in a N-series (and add a Lumagen to that  )


----------



## PeterLarsson

My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so.

ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution

Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth
Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling.

I have pogrammed the settings in my Harmony too, so I can switch on the fly, either memory A or B and high or low laser from projector.

Have a similar setup for UHD player, Panasonic UB-820. Forcing 1080 on Mem B and that works without restring anything.


----------



## blake

PeterLarsson said:


> My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so.
> 
> ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution
> 
> Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth
> Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling.
> 
> I have pogrammed the settings in my Harmony too, so I can switch on the fly, either memory A or B and high or low laser from projector.
> 
> Have a similar setup for UHD player, Panasonic UB-820. Forcing 1080 on Mem B and that works without restring anything.


This is a great idea. However, do you have to reboot the ATV every time the Radiance EDID changes between 4k and 1080p?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PeterLarsson

As i wrote - no restart or reboot needed 😊


----------



## blake

PeterLarsson said:


> As i wrote - no restart or reboot needed


So when you switch the EDID the ATV locks on right away ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bferbrache

blake said:


> So when you switch the EDID the ATV locks on right away ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have just tested this and all seems to work without any issues - I am sure I tried this in the past without success but it seems pretty flawless now. No need to reboot the Apple TV - it just locks to the 4K Sdr setting on mem A and the 1080p Sdr setting on mem B


----------



## PeterLarsson

blake said:


> So when you switch the EDID the ATV locks on right away ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, when I switch and press "ok" on Lumagen I immediately get the new input like from 4k to 1080p. SO that wroks without forcing a reboot. Both ATV and UHD player I use the same approach since I dont have a "source direct" on UB-820, so I force UB-820 to send 1080P while watching blu-rays for example.


----------



## MOberhardt

scrowe said:


> Or set a Lumagen Memory to force AppleTV to automatically switch to 1080p via Lumagen' s EDID setting.


How do you do this? I'd like to do it for my Panasonic for putting in in 1080p.

As a suggestion to Lumagen, it would be great if there was a simple inbuilt way to do this, considering all of the disc players with no source direct.


----------



## PeterLarsson

It is extremely easy, input menu and set the EDID to 1080 and save. It is kinda inbuilt already but more choices than just forcing 1080.


----------



## MOberhardt

PeterLarsson said:


> It is extremely easy, input menu and set the EDID to 1080 and save. It is kinda inbuilt already but more choices than just forcing 1080.


I'll see if I can figure how to do it. And hopefully program a macro in the Harmony so I can turn it on or off.

When you say memory, will that affect my settings? So say I have everything loaded I take it that is in a memory? So I'd be better off somehow copying my current settings to another memory and then making the change on that memory, and switch for 1080 v 4k?


----------



## bferbrache

MOberhardt said:


> I'll see if I can figure how to do it. And hopefully program a macro in the Harmony so I can turn it on or off.
> 
> When you say memory, will that affect my settings? So say I have everything loaded I take it that is in a memory? So I'd be better off somehow copying my current settings to another memory and then making the change on that memory, and switch for 1080 v 4k?











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hello Jim, at first thank you for including the DTM from me also. I have a very deeply 20" curved V6 screen 150" wide and really like the old 70 mm movies etc. I know its a bit early for X was wishes, but can I ask you again: if its possible to include WARPING into the Pro ? sometimes ? Only...




www.avsforum.com





Member Scrowe showed me how to do this in 2019, it didn't work for me then but seems to work well now


----------



## PeterLarsson

Exctly how I have done it, On memory A 4K UHD and Memory B 1080p. So I have put a macro on my Harmony and cange the memory as well as laser setting on my projector in one go. If you want I can check exactly in the menus how it is done on Lumagen since I dont remember every step in my head (quite new product for me)


----------



## MOberhardt

bferbrache said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Hello Jim, at first thank you for including the DTM from me also. I have a very deeply 20" curved V6 screen 150" wide and really like the old 70 mm movies etc. I know its a bit early for X was wishes, but can I ask you again: if its possible to include WARPING into the Pro ? sometimes ? Only...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Member Scrowe showed me how to do this in 2019, it didn't work for me then but seems to work well now


Cheers. So I copy current setting to another memory first then on other memory make that edid change?


----------



## PeterLarsson

Yes!

chose memory B and then as picture shows:


----------



## bferbrache

MOberhardt said:


> Cheers. So I copy current setting to another memory first then on other memory make that edid change?


Exactly - I pressed option memb on the remote, made the changes described by scrowe and saved the new settings. Switching between mema and memb restricts the output to 1080p.


----------



## MOberhardt

bferbrache said:


> Exactly - I pressed option memb on the remote, made the changes described by scrowe and saved the new settings. Switching between mema and memb restricts the output to 1080p.


Ok thanks. But do I need to copy to memory b first? Eg looking at the manual, it think Menu -> Input -> Copy?


----------



## bferbrache

MOberhardt said:


> Ok thanks. But do I need to copy to memory b first? Eg looking at the manual, it think Menu -> Input -> Copy?


My calibration was saved on all memories so I didn't have to copy the settings across. If you want to be sure then copy from input a to input b and save will work.


----------



## giomania

MOberhardt said:


> Ok thanks. But do I need to copy to memory b first? Eg looking at the manual, it think Menu -> Input -> Copy?


If you have made other changes to the various options / parameters of that particular input, then you should copy it first. If not, don't worry about it. Edit: Good point above about ensuring 1D / 3D LUTs that may be applied to any given CMS (0-8) are applied to the correct memory.

Mark


----------



## giomania

giomania said:


> I am having an issue with an Apple TV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR; it also switches off match frame rate and resolution when this occurs. I am wondering if there are any settings in the Radiance that can mitigate this issue?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro





giomania said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> For video EDID, locatred here: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Src Video Formats
> 
> I am using the following options:
> 
> Interlaced: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> Rec2020: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> HDR: Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The other options are 1080p and 9 Ghz
> HLG: Use global The other options are Auto, No, Yes
> 
> I think adjustments to either Rec2020 or HDR may help, but I am at a loss as to the difference between Use global and yes are, as HDR is set to "Yes" in the global setting. I guess I can try Auto and see if it makes a difference.
> 
> Mark





oldvinyl said:


> I would be interested if you find a solution. My setup is plagued with the same behavior on the AppleTV 4K. The AppleTV randomly reverts to 4K HDR and shuts off the frame rate/resolution matching.
> 
> Thanks!





bobof said:


> You didn't answer about what you're doing for audio EDID - that also has the potential to change the EDID presented to the source I recall.
> The default I think passes back the audio bit of the EDID from the AVR, which could change what the AppleTV sees depending on the power on timing.
> Better would be to fix it using the "Common Formats" or "Common Formats no Atmos" options.
> 
> Just ideas, but that behaviour of the AppleTV is exactly what it does when it sees a "new" EDID, turns off autoframerate and range and sets the UI to HDR.





giomania said:


> Sorry, I have audio EDID set to "Common"





Surge2018 said:


> Make sure you have Apple TV set to 4KSDR, not HDR, at all times (and 1080 SDR for HD content).
> The Apple TV will automatically switch to HDR when needed, even when in SDR mode. If you have it in HDR mode, it will display SDR content in HDR, which won’t look great.
> 
> Also enable Match Frame Rate and Resolution. It will still autoscale 1080P to 4K though, so you have to manually switch to 1080 resolution to let the Lumagen do the scaling (recommended).





scrowe said:


> Or set a Lumagen Memory to force AppleTV to automatically switch to 1080p via Lumagen' s EDID setting.





PeterLarsson said:


> My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so.
> 
> ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution
> 
> Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth
> Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling.
> 
> I have pogrammed the settings in my Harmony too, so I can switch on the fly, either memory A or B and high or low laser from projector.
> 
> Have a similar setup for UHD player, Panasonic UB-820. Forcing 1080 on Mem B and that works without restring anything.





PeterLarsson said:


> Yes!
> 
> chose memory B and then as picture shows:
> 
> View attachment 3068403





bferbrache said:


> Exactly - I pressed option memb on the remote, made the changes described by scrowe and saved the new settings. Switching between mema and memb restricts the output to 1080p.


As a public service, I thought it best to have all these posts in one place for members searching for issues with the ATV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR, as I think I stopped this behavior by changing HDR from "Use global" to "Yes" in my system. See below for details. 

Also, the suggestion to use a free memory to force the ATV 4K to use 1080p is brilliant.

For video EDID: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Video EDID

I am using the following Src Video Formats options:

Interlaced: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
Rec2020: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
*HDR: Yes * The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The options are: Max(18 Ghz), 1080p and 9 Ghz, but perhaps only if you have an 18 Ghz input card.
HLG: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes

Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Audio EDID
This is set to "Common"

It would seem that with the settings above have eliminated the HDMI resync that was causing the automatic switch in the ATV 4K from 4KSDR to 4KHDR.

Mark


----------



## thebland

With *Tenet* here, how do I set up a 2.20 aspect to fit my 2.35 screen (constant height with anamorphic lens and side masking)? I can mask it down to 2.20. Apparently the Kaleidescape version is only 2.20 with no switching aspects.

Thanks!


----------



## edthomp

Looks like there is a lot of information regarding configuring the Apple TV for the Radiance Pro. Any such information for the Roku Ultra? I've looked through the Forum and the Pro Setup and Calibration Tips and not seeing much. Please advise if there are some recommended tips that would allow the Roku Ultra to give its best <and to be less confusing, what I mean is: are there recommended settings on the Roku itself to input a more raw/unprocessed signal to the RP that would allow the video processing to happen on the RP versus being being done on the Roku first>.


----------



## giomania

edthomp said:


> Looks like there is a lot of information regarding configuring the Apple TV for the Radiance Pro. Any such information for the Roku Ultra? I've looked through the Forum and the Pro Setup and Calibration Tips and not seeing much. Please advise if there are some recommended tips that would allow the Roku Ultra to give its best.


I also have a Roku Ultra, and I plan on trying the same method to use a secondary input memory to force it to 1080p for SDR material. We will see if it works.


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> With *Tenet* here, how do I set up a 2.20 aspect to fit my 2.35 screen (constant height with anamorphic lens and side masking)? I can mask it down to 2.20. Apparently the Kaleidescape version is only 2.20 with no switching aspects.
> 
> Thanks!


Of you want it to fill the screen width wise you would need to use NLS. Just press NLS once the movie starts.


----------



## jrp

thebland said:


> With *Tenet* here, how do I set up a 2.20 aspect to fit my 2.35 screen (constant height with anamorphic lens and side masking)? I can mask it down to 2.20. Apparently the Kaleidescape version is only 2.20 with no switching aspects.


Kris already suggested using the NLS, which is a good idea IMO. I have some information to add.

The NLS parameters are in the In Configs.(in resolution).(in res memory number).Sizing sub menu. So you can adjust for each input resolution and each input aspect. With the current NLS defaults you do need to adjust parameters since the parameters - for historical reasons - are the ones for 16:9 to 2.40. I have been meaning to talk to Patrick for some time about changing the default for 2.0 and 2.2 source aspects since they are not appropriate at this time and you need to manually change them. s everyone here knows we have been consumed by the DTM effort and this was a minor issue that could be easily addressed in the menu. However, with 2.0 and 2.2 becoming a lot more common we will look at changing the defaults for 2.0 and 2.2 to more appropriate values.

Note: Be aware of the "indirection" used for input memories. What this means is that with default settings, that if you change, say, NLS parameters for a 1080 source for, say, 2.2 source aspect, that this changes the parameters for all inputs, and all input memories for 1080 sources with 2.2 source aspect. No need to do an "Input Copy" for this. Remember to do a Save though.

The default "center section stretch" is currently 18%, and by default cropping on the top and bottom is 6% and 2% respectively.

=== 

A linear stretch of 2.2 to 2.40 is 9%. For NLS, I suggest changing the top and bottom crop to 0, and selecting a center section stretch of perhaps 5%. If you leave a 2% top and bottom crop, then the linear stretch would be 4.7%, and you could set the center section stretch to 4% and have a nearly linear stretch. A 4% horizontal stretch is IMO not easy to even detect for actual content.

As I have posted previously, you could instead use the Style.Style0.Aspect.Output-aspect-per-input-aspect menu to tell the Radiance Pro that even though you have a 2.4 screen to set the output aspect to 2.2 for a 2.2 source aspect. This would do a linear stretch of 9% to fill the screen. I have tested this and IMO is not objectionable.

=== 

For 2.0 content, the linear stretch to 2.4 would be 20%. Too much IMO. There again are two options to consider.

You can use NLS, with say 2% cropping at top and bottom. The cropping alone reduces the stretch to 15%. Still too much for a linear stretch IMO. If you left the top/bottom crop at the default 6% and 2%, this reduces the stretch required to 10%. Then, for either option, you could select a center stretch of 5% to 8%, depending on taste, and fill the screen.

The second option again uses the output-aspect-per-input-aspect feature. For 2.0 you could set the output aspect to 2.2 for a 10% stretch and have smaller black bars on the side.

=== 

These choices are once again a personal preference. For the Radiance Pro that is the point. You can do pretty much whatever you want.


----------



## Hitechee

Does anybody know if Lumagen still plans to provide PIP/POP for the RadiancePro 444x series and, if so, when that might happen? I'm looking to buy a RP and would like PIP which requires a minimum 4444. If the PIP is not going to happen, then I could get by with a cheaper 4242.


----------



## 187crew003

hey Hitechee gonna shoot you a PM


----------



## Dirk44

4k - 2160p Warping Gerät von VNS kommt im Frühjahr 2021 ! - Heimkinoverein


Hallo Leute,endlich ist es soweit, VNS bringt Ihr Neues 4K - 2160p fähiges Warping Gerät am den Markt, damit wird es nun endlich u.a. möglich sein, 4k bzw. 2160p Signale genau an Curved Screens anzupassen.Es ging an verschieden Stellen im HKV schon um…




www.heimkinoverein.de







MOberhardt said:


> Cheers. So I copy current setting to another memory first then on other memory make that edid change?


I was the on how ask for warping, its funny because today I got the information, that the Taiwan based Company VNS will release in March 2021 her new 4k - 2160 Warping Unit in a Box.
Together with the Lumagen Pro- thanks again Partick and Jim, for all the updates in DTM and the sharpness tool- I' confident this will the solution for mine (and anybody else) deeply curved screen

Merry X mas and the happy New Year from Germany
Add a link with first informations unfortunately in german, but pictures will explain








4k - 2160p Warping Gerät von VNS kommt im Frühjahr 2021 ! - Heimkinoverein


Hallo Leute,endlich ist es soweit, VNS bringt Ihr Neues 4K - 2160p fähiges Warping Gerät am den Markt, damit wird es nun endlich u.a. möglich sein, 4k bzw. 2160p Signale genau an Curved Screens anzupassen.Es ging an verschieden Stellen im HKV schon um…




www.heimkinoverein.de


----------



## docrog

giomania said:


> I also have a Roku Ultra, and I plan on trying the same method to use a secondary input memory to force it to 1080p for SDR material. We will see if it works.


I went to a slightly different workaround for my RokuUltra and native1080p content by adding an additional inexpensive Roku Premier (less than $40) and limiting that to 1080p resolution. Although it adds an additional video source, it works perfectly in allowing the RP to upscale to 4K. Since the Premier lacks a separate audio out it would require the RP to reroute audio to the AVR. It wasn't difficult for me to have added it because my configuration has the AVR before the RP, with the AVR performing the switching of video sources.


----------



## docrog

Deleted, duplicate post


----------



## jrp

Hitechee said:


> Does anybody know if Lumagen still plans to provide PIP/POP for the RadiancePro 444x series and, if so, when that might happen? I'm looking to buy a RP and would like PIP which requires a minimum 4444. If the PIP is not going to happen, then I could get by with a cheaper 4242.


We do still plan to add PiP/PoP to the 444X models. We realize this is long overdue because HDR and DTM has consumed us for the last several years.

We are working on the pipeline enhancements. This is a major effort, and will take three to six months I believe. Once the pipeline enhancements are complete, we would add PiP. Then we plan to add PoP next after PiP. This assumes we do not get sidetracked (DTM, bugs, etc.), which could further delay PiP and PoP.


----------



## Hitechee

Jim,
Thanks for the reply. One more question, what is the reason for limiting PIP to the 444x series? Is it because the additional outputs are necessary? If this is the case, will it work with only 2 -18 GHz outputs or will it need all 4 - 9GHz outputs?


----------



## edthomp

jrp said:


> We do still plan to add PiP/PoP to the 444X models. We realize this is long overdue because HDR and DTM has consumed us for the last several years.
> 
> We are working on the pipeline enhancements. This is a major effort, and will take three to six months I believe. Once the pipeline enhancements are complete, we would add PiP. Then we plan to add PoP next after PiP. This assumes we do not get sidetracked (DTM, bugs, etc.), which could further delay PiP and PoP.


Could you explain at the cloud level what the pipeline enhancements are and what are the benefits. Would it be just an internal optimization to make the processing more efficient, or will there also be visible benefits?


----------



## Nima

jrp said:


> As I have posted previously, you could instead use the Style.Style0.Aspect.Output-aspect-per-input-aspect menu to tell the Radiance Pro that even though you have a 2.4 screen to set the output aspect to 2.2 for a 2.2 source aspect. This would do a linear stretch of 9% to fill the screen. I have tested this and IMO is not objectionable.


Did you mean "set output to 2.4 for a 2.2 source aspect"?


----------



## giomania

edthomp said:


> Looks like there is a lot of information regarding configuring the Apple TV for the Radiance Pro. Any such information for the Roku Ultra? I've looked through the Forum and the Pro Setup and Calibration Tips and not seeing much. Please advise if there are some recommended tips that would allow the Roku Ultra to give its best <and to be less confusing, what I mean is: are there recommended settings on the Roku itself to input a more raw/unprocessed signal to the RP that would allow the video processing to happen on the RP versus being being done on the Roku first>.





giomania said:


> I also have a Roku Ultra, and I plan on trying the same method to use a secondary input memory to force it to 1080p for SDR material. We will see if it works.





docrog said:


> I went to a slightly different workaround for my RokuUltra and native1080p content by adding an additional inexpensive Roku Premier (less than $40) and limiting that to 1080p resolution. Although it adds an additional video source, it works perfectly in allowing the RP to upscale to 4K. Since the Premier lacks a separate audio out it would require the RP to reroute audio to the AVR. It wasn't difficult for me to have added it because my configuration has the AVR before the RP, with the AVR performing the switching of video sources.


I confirmed that in addition to the Apple TV 4K, this tip also works for the Roku Ultra and the 2017 Nvidia Shield TV Pro. I have added a write-up in the The Unofficial Lumagen® Radiance™ Pro Setup & Calibration Guide, located here, and also linked in my signature. It is on page 7, and I have uploaded it already.

I should have figured this out a long time ago, but to be honest, I use my OPPO UDP-203 most of the time, which has a source direct feature.

Mark


----------



## MOberhardt

giomania said:


> As a public service, I thought it best to have all these posts in one place for members searching for issues with the ATV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR, as I think I stopped this behavior by changing HDR from "Use global" to "Yes" in my system. See below for details.
> 
> Also, the suggestion to use a free memory to force the ATV 4K to use 1080p is brilliant.
> 
> For video EDID: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Video EDID
> 
> I am using the following Src Video Formats options:
> 
> Interlaced: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> Rec2020: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> *HDR: Yes * The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The options are: Max(18 Ghz), 1080p and 9 Ghz, but perhaps only if you have an 18 Ghz input card.
> HLG: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> 
> Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Audio EDID
> This is set to "Common"
> 
> It would seem that with the settings above have eliminated the HDMI resync that was causing the automatic switch in the ATV 4K from 4KSDR to 4KHDR.
> 
> Mark


Thanks to all for your help. It works well. I also programmed Mem A and B as named activities on the Harmony so I can see them shown as 4K and 1080p.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> Did you mean "set output to 2.4 for a 2.2 source aspect"?


I meant for a 2.2 source aspect set the output aspect (using output-aspect-per-input-aspect feature) to 2.4 if you want to fill the screen. Which, I believe, is what I typed.

You are telling the Pro a "lie" in this case, but it would get you what some are asking for. That is 2.2 source filling a 2.4 screen aspect.


----------



## jrp

Hitechee said:


> Jim,
> Thanks for the reply. One more question, what is the reason for limiting PIP to the 444x series? Is it because the additional outputs are necessary? If this is the case, will it work with only 2 -18 GHz outputs or will it need all 4 - 9GHz outputs?


The 424X models do not have enough input chips for the PiP source in addition to teh main source.

For PiP, it will work with a 9 GHz input card input and any other input. However, for an 18 GHz input it will work only wiht an input not on the same input card. For example, if Input 1 and 2 are on an 18GHz input card you cannot PiP or PoP input 1 and 2 since the 18 GHz input chip is used for both and only supports one at a time.

The output card configuration does not affect PiP/PoP in any way.

The PiP and PoP will support 18 GHz input sources.


----------



## Hitechee

I thought the limit should be the number of inputs, but why then will the 4442 support PIP/POP and not the 4242 since both have 4 inputs?


----------



## jrp

edthomp said:


> Could you explain at the cloud level what the pipeline enhancements are and what are the benefits. Would it be just an internal optimization to make the processing more efficient, or will there also be visible benefits?


We are increasing the front-end (input through scaling output) from 10 to 12+ bits. In many cases the processing in this section is off, and so 10-bit is fine. However, for scaling and aspect control, anamorphic scaling, etc. it can help image quality to some degree. The 10-bit processing is already excellent, but I want a couple extra bits to maximize accumulative pipeline precision.

I believe for some content the pipeline enhancements will visibly improve the image quality. Of course since the image quality is already excellent, these will be subtle improvements.

The rest of the pipeline is already 12+ bits.


----------



## jrp

Hitechee said:


> I thought the limit should be the number of inputs, but why then will the 4442 support PIP/POP and not the 4242 since both have 4 inputs?


The "not enough input chips" refers to HDMI-to-TTL chips inside the Pro that do not connect to the outside world, and not how many sources you can plug into the Radiance Pro model you have.

Note: A 4440 will be able to do PiP and PoP _only_ if it has a 9 GHz input card. For18 GHz inputs a 444X needs at least four inputs (a 4442, 4444, 4446) to do PiP/PoP.


----------



## sor

This may be slightly off topic but I’d really love it if Lumagen served their website via HTTPS. Particularly when it comes to downloading new firmware, it would give peace of mind that you’re getting what you think you are.

Even setting up free auto-renewed certs via Let's Encrypt - Free SSL/TLS Certificates would do the job and help protect us all.


----------



## bjorg

sor said:


> This may be slightly off topic but I’d really love it if Lumagen served their website via HTTPS. Particularly when it comes to downloading new firmware, it would give peace of mind that you’re getting what you think you are.
> 
> Even setting up free auto-renewed certs via Let's Encrypt - Free SSL/TLS Certificates would do the job and help protect us all.


Thank you for raising that point. Very important these days, especially in light of the recent SolarWinds news.


----------



## Surge2018

I’m loving the DTM improvements in the latest firmware! 

Not related - why does Auto 2 output mode not match the input frame rate when upscaling 1080P? 
Input is 1080P/24 and output is 4K/60; would have expected 4K/24 by default...?


----------



## fatherom

The Solarwinds attack was a very specific form of hack, where they gained control of the systems where the Orion product was built. 

Even if the lumagen site was https that's not going to instantly make downloads something you can trust anymore than how they are now. The firmware itself should be signed or Jim could publish the hash of the zip file here as a secondary means of validating that it's legit. 

All this being said, I highly doubt hackers are going to try to hack lumagen. They're going after larger agencies and corporations. No offense to lumagen of course; but I'd be willing to bet lumagen isn't on any hacker's radar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sor

fatherom said:


> The Solarwinds attack was a very specific form of hack, where they gained control of the systems where the Orion product was built.
> 
> Even if the lumagen site was https that's not going to instantly make downloads something you can trust anymore than how they are now. The firmware itself should be signed or Jim could publish the hash of the zip file here as a secondary means of validating that it's legit.
> 
> All this being said, I highly doubt hackers are going to try to hack lumagen. They're going after larger agencies and corporations. No offense to lumagen of course; but I'd be willing to get lumagen isn't on any hacker's radar.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you’re right, that’s how they’ve gotten by so far, flying under the radar via obscurity. However, it takes ~5 minutes to set up the let’s encrypt bot, and it’s about more than Lumagen. 

If someone of interest owns a Lumagen, and you know that, you might assume they will occasionally visit their unsecured site and could use that to target them in various ways. This doesn’t have to be a high profile hack, could be carried out by a neighbor or contact you annoyed.

Of course, there are probably 50 other ways you could do it as well, and you’re absolutely correct that signing and distributing hashes of the release artifacts (via some method more trustworthy than the download location) would be helpful. There are all sorts of things they could do. It just seems like setting up server certs is a fairly low effort thing to suggest, to at least feel ok that when I connect to their site I know what is on the other end.


----------



## ShaharT

Cable for FW update question:

In a recent 'putting in order the rack', my installer inadvertently misplaced the upgrade cable that was previously connected to the back of the Lumagen and sticking from the front of the rack.

I need to order a new one, but I'm not sure how it's called.
On one end it was a normal USB that was long enough to get to the front of the rack and connect to my laptop. On the other end (that was connected to the Lumagen) it looked like an old printer cable. Is there a name for this cable e.g. USB2Printer cable? So many available online, I don't want to get the wrong type. Thanks.

** EDIT **
I think I found it, USB 2-B male to USB 2-A male cable.


https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-USB-2-0-Cable-Male/dp/B00NH11KIK#


:

** EDIT 2 **
Or should it be USB 3.0A or 3.1A, instead of USB 2.0A?


----------



## bearcat2002

Get the 2.0A.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgkula

I have maxlight =5.7x, lowratio =1x, desat =low, and dpad =4.
Watched mad max last night. What a picture! Really great job lumagen team!


----------



## Des511

I’ve got a Zappiti pro so can anyone recommend settings in the Lumagen I should use as the Zappiti doesn’t give the correct disc data for DTM. I’ve read about setting the Lumagen to always 4000 nits but what happens in the movie is mastered at 1000 nits?


----------



## 187crew003

dgkula said:


> I have maxlight =5.7x, lowratio =1x, desat =low, and dpad =4.
> Watched mad max last night. What a picture! Really great job lumagen team!


Just finished the hobbits. Best picture I’ve ever had in my theater by far. Mad I didn’t discover the lumagen sooner!


----------



## Kris Deering

Des511 said:


> I’ve got a Zappiti pro so can anyone recommend settings in the Lumagen I should use as the Zappiti doesn’t give the correct disc data for DTM. I’ve read about setting the Lumagen to always 4000 nits but what happens in the movie is mastered at 1000 nits?


It won't work, you just get a screen that will say "1000 nits sucker!!!"

JK of course. Remember, not movie is "mastered" to 1000 nits. That only references the monitor used and is rarely indicative of the transfer itself. The Lumagen does use this number to setup some simple ground rules when it starts (provides an indicator on where to start the tone map), but once things are going it is largely unneeded. You can change the input settings for the Zappiti input on the Lumagen to ignore the metadata it is getting and use a fixed number of your choosing, but whether or not this will make much visible difference is debatable.


----------



## Des511

Kris Deering said:


> It won't work, you just get a screen that will say "1000 nits sucker!!!"
> 
> JK of course. Remember, not movie is "mastered" to 1000 nits. That only references the monitor used and is rarely indicative of the transfer itself. The Lumagen does use this number to setup some simple ground rules when it starts (provides an indicator on where to start the tone map), but once things are going it is largely unneeded. You can change the input settings for the Zappiti input on the Lumagen to ignore the metadata it is getting and use a fixed number of your choosing, but whether or not this will make much visible difference is debatable.


Thanks Chris. Wonder if we could get Jim and Patrick to add that 1000 nits sucker warning to the next update 😂


----------



## Sittler27

What screen material/size and/or display to you have?


----------



## Sittler27

187crew003 said:


> Just finished the hobbits. Best picture I’ve ever had in my theater by far. Mad I didn’t discover the lumagen sooner!


Sorry, last post referred to this and previous.


----------



## 187crew003

Sittler27 said:


> Sorry, last post referred to this and previous.


120” 2.40 spandex AT screen.


----------



## Sittler27

187crew003 said:


> 120” 2.40 spandex AT screen.


Do you have it at maxlight =5.7x, lowratio =1x, desat =low, and dpad =4 too?


----------



## 187crew003

I have max light at 5x lowratio 1x desat auto. And dpad 2


----------



## woofer

*Congrats *...... Jim and "Team" 
The newest firmware is a "Gem"  Smiles here are only getting wider! 😀


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I’m about to pull the trigger on a Lumagen Radiance Pro, because it’s such a big purchase for me I was wondering about HDMI 2.1. 

Not that i see much benefit to it for Home Theatre. Is this something that is being discussed? Is it on a roadmap yet? I’d hate to purchase it in January 2021 then the new model comes out in February 😁


----------



## MOberhardt

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I’m about to pull the trigger on a Lumagen Radiance Pro, because it’s such a big purchase for me I was wondering about HDMI 2.1.
> 
> Not that i see much benefit to it for Home Theatre. Is this something that is being discussed? Is it on a roadmap yet? I’d hate to purchase it in January 2021 then the new model comes out in February 😁


You are talking about an area with no real relevance to home theater,, IMHO. Most of the enthusiasts I know can't stand 60p, let alone care about 120p. And 8k? Even on our projector screen sizes, 4k is beyond the limit of human eye capability. More dots on screen is an easy achievement. It is just Moore's Law in action. But you know what is hard? Color reproduction and calibration. The very idea of getting a projector or tv capable of 100% REC2020 isnt even discussed. If a better user experience was actually the goal, not just media hype, they'd be talking about utilizing the color space currently available with rec2020. Nothing is even mastered with 2020. Just dcip3. 

In short, with the 2.0 standard they is so much REAL visual improvements available that they can take advantage of. 8k and 120p can just xxxx off from my perspective


----------



## PeterLarsson

The perceived DTM is very much better since the last update - I have been watching The Martian, Us. and the first extended Hobbit. 

What have you guys done @jrp . I have Sony VW790. zoomed out 2.35 and measured light output is 68 nits. I have Maxlight x5 and ratio at 31 (approx x1) and dynpad at 2. Very dynamic and extremely good blacks and not seen a washed out scene yet and the highlights and speeches are very good. 

Would just to say thanks, and also tomorrow I will get a new 9Ghz input board - nice .


----------



## Surge2018

I too am thoroughly enjoying the latest firmware (120320, so not quite the latest). These DTM algorithms are based on decades of experience from Lumagen, and it shows.

On my Sony 995, I00” Stewart Grayhawk G4 (0.9 gain), 10’ throw distance:
Sony settings:
Laser light output = Max
Gamma = 2.6
Lumagen settings:
MaxLight = 1070
DynPad = 5 
LowRatio = 31

DynPad was 2 before this update. 5 really improves the perception of color saturation and luminous range. It seemed just a tad dark at first, but you get used to it, and the benefits are what I just mentioned. 
As Jim said, we tend to “like” brighter images, so it takes some discipline to stick with a higher DynPad setting before deciding on what’s best for you.


----------



## 187crew003

Surge2018 said:


> I too am thoroughly enjoying the latest firmware (120320, so not quite the latest). These DTM algorithms are based on decades of experience from Lumagen, and it shows.
> 
> On my Sony 995, I00” Stewart Grayhawk G4 (0.9 gain), 10’ throw distance:
> Sony settings:
> Laser light output = Max
> Gamma = 2.6
> Lumagen settings:
> MaxLight = 1070
> DynPad = 5
> LowRatio = 31
> 
> DynPad was 2 before this update. 5 really improves the perception of color saturation and luminous range. It seemed just a tad dark at first, but you get used to it, and the benefits are what I just mentioned.
> As Jim said, we tend to “like” brighter images, so it takes some discipline to stick with a higher DynPad setting before deciding on what’s best for you.


Curious why you are using 2.6 gamma. Isn’t the lumagen expecting 2.4?


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> The 424X models do not have enough input chips for the PiP source in addition to teh main source.
> 
> For PiP, it will work with a 9 GHz input card input and any other input. However, for an 18 GHz input it will work only wiht an input not on the same input card. For example, if Input 1 and 2 are on an 18GHz input card you cannot PiP or PoP input 1 and 2 since the 18 GHz input chip is used for both and only supports one at a time.
> 
> The output card configuration does not affect PiP/PoP in any way.
> 
> The PiP and PoP will support 18 GHz input sources.


Really great work Jim! Just curious of your road map to update the input card hardware if any.


----------



## SJHT

And yes, please still give us PIP/POP! SJ


----------



## thebland

Amateur question. Where do I adjust the D-Pad setting. I just loaded the new software, and likely I am at two and want to play around with the number..


I had mine set up by calibrator and the beauty of it is I never need to get into the menus. The Radiance just runs in the background! 

Thanks!


----------



## woofer

thebland said:


> Amateur question. Where do I adjust the D-Pad setting. I just loaded the new software, and likely I am at two and want to play around with the number..
> 
> 
> I had mine set up by calibrator and the beauty of it is I never need to get into the menus. The Radiance just runs in the background!
> 
> Thanks!


While inputting a HDR source , PRESS the LEFT arrow on the KEYPAD . The DTM option will appear . they are from left to right........LOW RATIO.......DPAD......DSAT.....MAXLIGHT. use the L/R Up/Down arrows to adjust , then press OK ...then IF you want to save ...PRESS MENU select SAVE...PRESS OK to save....


----------



## tswire

So am I reading correctly that as long as the Pro shows an EDID of 1080p the ATV4K will actually switch from 4k SDR to 1080p SDR? I have never seen a post in vertex or ATV that says it will switch resolution "automatically". 

Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

tswire said:


> So am I reading correctly that as long as the Pro shows an EDID of 1080p the ATV4K will actually switch from 4k SDR to 1080p SDR? I have never seen a post in vertex or ATV that says it will switch resolution "automatically".


I think it's a "works...but" type scenario. I tried it and though you can make it switch res using this method, it often forgot what you'd set for the dynamic range / framerate matching etc. Each time it sees the different EDID it thinks it is seeing a new TV and acts accordingly. 
It might work better than since the last time I tried it. By all means give it a go - what's the worst that could happen...?


----------



## MOberhardt

tswire said:


> So am I reading correctly that as long as the Pro shows an EDID of 1080p the ATV4K will actually switch from 4k SDR to 1080p SDR? I have never seen a post in vertex or ATV that says it will switch resolution "automatically".
> 
> Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk


Yeah it works well. There was a screen shot a page or so back that shoed where.

I have it set like that on memB and MemA is standard, so I can force a device that doesn't have source direct to 1080p.


----------



## bferbrache

bobof said:


> I think it's a "works...but" type scenario. I tried it and though you can make it switch res using this method, it often forgot what you'd set for the dynamic range / framerate matching etc. Each time it sees the different EDID it thinks it is seeing a new TV and acts accordingly.
> It might work better than since the last time I tried it. By all means give it a go - what's the worst that could happen...?


My experience in 2019 when I last tried this was as you describe, the apple TV would forget the settings you mention when you switch. It appears that switching now works without losing the settings. Not sure if this will be the case for everyone but I've tried it quite a few times now and it seems pretty solid.


----------



## PeterLarsson

bferbrache said:


> My experience in 2019 when I last tried this was as you describe, the apple TV would forget the settings you mention when you switch. It appears that switching now works without losing the settings. Not sure if this will be the case for everyone but I've tried it quite a few times now and it seems pretty solid.


It does not forget. Lumagen forces ATV to send 1080p since ATV think that is the maximum that the display can handle. It works, have had it so for a while it is flawless both for ATVs and UHDs and of course other media players. 

The only change I was forced to do was the first time ATV sent 1080P HDR, I changed that to 1080P SDR once and it has stayed there since.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> It does not forget. Lumagen forces ATV to send 1080p since ATV think that is the maximum that the display can handle. It works, have had it so for a while it is flawless both for ATVs and UHDs and of course other media players.
> 
> The only change I was forced to do was the first time ATV sent 1080P HDR, I changed that to 1080P SDR once and it has stayed there since.


There is some 1080p only HDR on the AppleTV - Netflix Startrek Discovery is one such title.


----------



## bferbrache

PeterLarsson said:


> It does not forget. Lumagen forces ATV to send 1080p since ATV think that is the maximum that the display can handle. It works, have had it so for a while it is flawless both for ATVs and UHDs and of course other media players.
> 
> The only change I was forced to do was the first time ATV sent 1080P HDR, I changed that to 1080P SDR once and it has stayed there since.


I agree - it seems to be very stable now. I don't think it is so effective with the Nvidia Shield though as the shield does not change the refresh rate like the Apple TV does. I use the refresh rate app for the Shield as that seems to be working OK without the need to force the change by restricting the Lumagen EDID.


----------



## FenceMan

Is HDR DTM able to be set per input or is it all or nothing. Can I for instance tonemap input 1 but not tonemap input 2?


----------



## Kris Deering

FenceMan said:


> Is HDR DTM able to be set per input or is it all or nothing. Can I for instance tonemap input 1 but not tonemap input 2?


Yes, this is possible


----------



## FenceMan

Kris Deering said:


> Yes, this is possible


Awesome, I think my curiosity is going to the get the best of me and this will make it easier.


----------



## blake

bobof said:


> There is some 1080p only HDR on the AppleTV - Netflix Startrek Discovery is one such title.


If your ATV switches to 1080p SDR (because of the Lumagen video EDID) but “match content” is on , will it not output between 1080p SDR and HDR (rare - Star Trek discovery) properly based on content ?


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> If your ATV switches to 1080p SDR (because of the Lumagen video EDID) but “match content” is on , will it not output between 1080p SDR and HDR (rare - Star Trek discovery) properly based on content ?


Should do. 1080p HDR is supported by Apple.


----------



## mandragora

Hello guys I hope you're all well and safe during those strange times.
I've reached around 100hours on my JVC N7 and prior to my holidays and long awaited LOTR/Hobbit UHD marathon I'd like to run a calibration .
I do have xrite spectro and colorimeter along ColourSpace as software.

From few posts back and from an 'unofficial guide' a gentlemen here created (my apologies I don't remember his/her username I've understood that I should use for both SDR/CMS0 and HDR/CMS1 SDR Rec. 2020 and colorspace.

Have I understood correctly ?

If so would I use just 1 preset on the JVC? and create 1 3D LUT with colourspace targeting REC.2020 Gamma 2.4 ?
how do I select which preset in the JVC N7 it's the most appropriace?

Currently my lumagen setup has CMS0 set to Rec. 709 and CMS1 set to P3 and two corresponding presets in the JVC.

I hope that someone can chip in and give me some advice as it has been years since I did my last calibration (that is back to the Radiance Mini3D and a very old version of Chromapure) :-(
All the other calibrations throughout the years have been done by my trusted calibrator but now I'm far from UK, COVID ... meaning that I need to roll up my sleeves and perform the calibration myself  

thanks for all the help

Stay safe and have a nice day, 

Ben


----------



## bjorg

This may already have been discussed. Recently, I've been having issues where the Radiance Pro does not seem to sync successfully with the AppleTV on power on. I have to switch to another source and back for it to sync. The AppleTV is set to never go to sleep. The Radiance Pro is set to keep the source the same as it had before going into standby. An alternative is to never put the Radiance Pro into standby.

Curious if others have run into this and how they addressed it.


----------



## Surge2018

187crew003 said:


> Curious why you are using 2.6 gamma. Isn’t the lumagen expecting 2.4?


You always fine tune Gamma based on your room, light levels, etc. Also, some displays are not perfectly correct, so 2.6 is actually 2.4,

I found the following useful (you can Google it to find the source):


> In the modern era of flat-panel TVs, it's ideally used to tailor image quality to room lighting.
> 
> If you adjust the gamma on your TV, it changes the apparent "grayness" of blacks, shadows, midtones, and to a lesser extent, even highlights. Gamma describes how the image transitions from black to white, and affects all the grays in between.
> 
> If you're watching TV in a bright room, 2.4 will seem too dark, with the shadows too hard to see. If you're watching in a dark room, 2.0 might seem too washed out, with the shadows unnaturally bright.
> 
> If your TV has a gamma setting, find some scenes that place at night or are otherwise dark, and play around with it. Just do so when you normally watch most of your content, or be ready to change it if you watch something at a different time of day.
> 
> Generally speaking, increasing your brightness control [MaxLight?] will have a somewhat similar effect as changing the gamma (raising the brightness of shadows), but usually this is just bumping up the bottom of the curve. So the curve stays the same, but the darkest it can get goes up.
> 
> Neither projector can create the required nits, but the one on the left one is showing you the full highlight detail while sacrificing brightness. The other is clipping it the detail, effectively lopping it off, but creating a brighter highlight. Neither can fully produce the brightness required of the HDR content, but one is doing a much better job fooling you into thinking it can.
> 
> 
> Gamma 2.4 – Many professional post-production facilities resisted gamma 2.35 and opted for gamma 2.4 – because they could match their LCDs and plasma displays to their CRTs more easily if they used gamma 2.4. This trend became so strong that the BBC now recommends gamma 2.4. And this is the current standard if you’re mastering for broadcast.
> Gamma 2.6 – This is the gamma setting is used for ‘blacked out’ viewing conditions, typical of a movie theater. Gamma 2.2 and gamma 2.4 generally look too flat and dim in black box conditions. Hence, for DCI delivery to cinema a Gamma 2.6 is specified.


Therefore, Gamma is not a “one size fits all“ setting. It’s also dependant (and interacts with) your MaxLight and DynPad settings.


----------



## Surge2018

woofer said:


> While inputting a HDR source , PRESS the LEFT arrow on the KEYPAD . The DTM option will appear . they are from left to right........LOW RATIO.......DPAD......DSAT.....MAXLIGHT. use the L/R Up/Down arrows to adjust , then press OK ...then IF you want to save ...PRESS MENU select SAVE...PRESS OK to save....


Make sure you exit this menu properly, or the setting will not be retained. I’m not referring to Save to keep the settings upon power down. If you don‘t exit the menu where you change DynPad properly, it won’t be retained.
Also, these adjustments are input specific!


----------



## Surge2018

bjorg said:


> This may already have been discussed. Recently, I've been having issues where the Radiance Pro does not seem to sync successfully with the AppleTV on power on. I have to switch to another source and back for it to sync. The AppleTV is set to never go to sleep. The Radiance Pro is set to keep the source the same as it had before going into standby. An alternative is to never put the Radiance Pro into standby.
> 
> Curious if others have run into this and how they addressed it.


It happens to me on occasion. I don’t think there’s any way around it - it’s due to HDMI handshake issues.

Also, if you have a receiver in the video chain, it can make these handshake issues much worse! 

The optimal recommended setup for video (per the Lumagen manual) is: Source -> Lumagen -> Display


----------



## bjorg

Surge2018 said:


> The optimal recommended setup for video (per the Lumagen manual) is: Source -> Lumagen -> Display


Alas, that's what I have. Oddly, it's only happening on one of my setups, which make me wonder if there is an issue with the power up sequence for it.


----------



## Ironman1718

Quick ? with Lumagen and Xbox. 

I have a 2:4.1 screen and a lumagen radiance pro. What aspect ratio setting I use so I can see the entire game on my wide format screen? Example, the new black ops game, I’m only seeing 1/2 of the radar on the top left of the screen. Any other settings should I choose? thank you


----------



## bferbrache

bjorg said:


> Alas, that's what I have. Oddly, it's only happening on one of my setups, which make me wonder if there is an issue with the power up sequence for it.


Do you have a Logitech remote? you could program the startup sequence to reboot the Apple TV last. It will take a little longer to complete the startup process but I have done this in the past to fix the issue you describe


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> This may already have been discussed. Recently, I've been having issues where the Radiance Pro does not seem to sync successfully with the AppleTV on power on. I have to switch to another source and back for it to sync. The AppleTV is set to never go to sleep. The Radiance Pro is set to keep the source the same as it had before going into standby. An alternative is to never put the Radiance Pro into standby.
> 
> Curious if others have run into this and how they addressed it.


There are a few things that may help with power up issues:

We recommend you power on the projector/TV, wait about 10 seconds for it to have its HDMI active, then power on the Radiance Pro. Then wait five seconds before powering on everything else. Not needed in most cases but it has helped in some cases.

In the Radiance Pro input menu under Other.OnOff Setup.Input Select you can enable "Delay Selection." This adds about 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the sources are awake before the Pro starts trying to acquire the source. We have seen many sources go into what I refer to as "Zombie Mode" when they are off for a long time (e.g. overnight). They are not completely asleep and seem to respond but not in a correct manner. The exact interaction is conjecture on my part but this feature was added for such sources and seems to resolve issues at power on in a number of cases.

Another thing you can try is to program the Pro to automatically select an input that is not the one you will likely watch. This can act like the "switch away and back" action mentioned to get a source to output video. This feature is in teh same menu as above. You program the Pro for, say, Input 4, when it is really the AppleTV 4K on input 1 you want. Then program your control system to power up as above, and then program the selection the input you want as a late part of the power on macro.

Another trick: I have suggested removing wall power from your "Zombie" source overnight, and apply power shortly before you turn the system on, or as you turn it on. Removing power prevents the source from half-awake interaction with the Radiance Pro and can help with startup issues.


----------



## dlinsley

bjorg said:


> This may already have been discussed. Recently, I've been having issues where the Radiance Pro does not seem to sync successfully with the AppleTV on power on. I have to switch to another source and back for it to sync. The AppleTV is set to never go to sleep. The Radiance Pro is set to keep the source the same as it had before going into standby. An alternative is to never put the Radiance Pro into standby.
> 
> Curious if others have run into this and how they addressed it.


Do you have a control system, or just using the original remotes? I have my Harmony Elite set to turn off the ATV when not in use, and the following is my Activity startup settings which work completely reliably. The only change I made was to move the Trinnov startup first as it takes longer than the JVC RS3000 projector :-O Note that "Harmony Pro TV" is the Harmony Hub's bluetooth keyboard emulation for ATV - it was all set up using the Harmony Wizard and selecting AppleTV. Any delays (none) would show as steps in the order, and so the Trinnov input change is effectively lost during power on but the Trinnov is set to default to input 1 on power on anyway, which is why there are no delays specified in this list.


----------



## MOberhardt

Also use the Apple TV Bluetooth driver on the Harmony, not the IR one.

And make sure CEC is off.

When I first got a Harmony, I used it on a setup with CEC on devices. It didn't work too well. I actually boxed it up and left it in a cupboard for a year. It wasn't until I built my HT I pulled it out, and used it. Works well with CEC off. But on, I think due to current inputs, if say you were watching Apple TV before powering off, the AVR would be on that input, so when it powers it'd turn on the Apple TV

Another thing to note is start delays. You can't add them in activities. You add them to the device power options. So I start display with zero delay, Lumagen with 5, AVR with 20,crush 30 on each image source. Helps handshaking.

Whilst discussing Harmony hubs, given many here have them, and most are running a projector, does anyone run the Harmony hub at the rear of the home theater? I was just thinking about doing this to tidy up. Just wondering if would work ok. I can't think of any reason it wouldn't.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> There are a few things that may help with power up issues:
> 
> We recommend you power on the projector/TV, wait about 10 seconds for it to have its HDMI active, then power on the Radiance Pro. Then wait five seconds before powering on everything else. Not needed in most cases but it has helped in some cases.
> 
> In the Radiance Pro input menu under Other.OnOff Setup.Input Select you can enable "Delay Selection." This adds about 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the sources are awake before the Pro starts trying to acquire the source. We have seen many sources go into what I refer to as "Zombie Mode" when they are off for a long time (e.g. overnight). They are not completely asleep and seem to respond but not in a correct manner. The exact interaction is conjecture on my part but this feature was added for such sources and seems to resolve issues at power on in a number of cases.
> 
> Another thing you can try is to program the Pro to automatically select an input that is not the one you will likely watch. This can act like the "switch away and back" action mentioned to get a source to output video. This feature is in teh same menu as above. You program the Pro for, say, Input 4, when it is really the AppleTV 4K on input 1 you want. Then program your control system to power up as above, and then program the selection the input you want as a late part of the power on macro.
> 
> Another trick: I have suggested removing wall power from your "Zombie" source overnight, and apply power shortly before you turn the system on, or as you turn it on. Removing power prevents the source from half-awake interaction with the Radiance Pro and can help with startup issues.


Excellent suggestions! I will give them a shot. Thanks.


----------



## bjorg

dlinsley said:


> Do you have a control system, or just using the original remotes? I have my Harmony Elite set to turn off the ATV when not in use, and the following is my Activity startup settings which work completely reliably. The only change I made was to move the Trinnov startup first as it takes longer than the JVC RS3000 projector :-O Note that "Harmony Pro TV" is the Harmony Hub's bluetooth keyboard emulation for ATV - it was all set up using the Harmony Wizard and selecting AppleTV. Any delays (none) would show as steps in the order, and so the Trinnov input change is effectively lost during power on but the Trinnov is set to default to input 1 on power on anyway, which is why there are no delays specified in this list.
> 
> View attachment 3069940


Alas, it's a Control4 system. Thanks though!


----------



## dlinsley

MOberhardt said:


> Whilst discussing Harmony hubs, given many here have them, and most are running a projector, does anyone run the Harmony hub at the rear of the home theater? I was just thinking about doing this to tidy up. Just wondering if would work ok. I can't think of any reason it wouldn't.


My Hub is in a rack in the room behind the theater. No issue with range. I run an in-wall rated 3.5mm stereo extension (through the conduit with HDMI etc) to connect the IR emitter to the projector.


----------



## MOberhardt

dlinsley said:


> My Hub is in a rack in the room behind the theater. No issue with range. I run an in-wall rated 3.5mm stereo extension (through the conduit with HDMI etc) to connect the IR emitter to the projector.


Ah yes the stereo extension cable. I didn't even think of that.


----------



## giomania

mandragora said:


> Hello guys I hope you're all well and safe during those strange times.
> I've reached around 100hours on my JVC N7 and prior to my holidays and long awaited LOTR/Hobbit UHD marathon I'd like to run a calibration .
> I do have xrite spectro and colorimeter along ColourSpace as software.
> 
> From few posts back and from an 'unofficial guide' a gentlemen here created (my apologies I don't remember his/her username I've understood that I should use for both SDR/CMS0 and HDR/CMS1 SDR Rec. 2020 and colorspace.
> 
> Have I understood correctly ?
> 
> If so would I use just 1 preset on the JVC? and create 1 3D LUT with colourspace targeting REC.2020 Gamma 2.4 ?
> how do I select which preset in the JVC N7 it's the most appropriace?
> 
> Currently my lumagen setup has CMS0 set to Rec. 709 and CMS1 set to P3 and two corresponding presets in the JVC.
> 
> I hope that someone can chip in and give me some advice as it has been years since I did my last calibration (that is back to the Radiance Mini3D and a very old version of Chromapure) :-(
> All the other calibrations throughout the years have been done by my trusted calibrator but now I'm far from UK, COVID ... meaning that I need to roll up my sleeves and perform the calibration myself
> 
> thanks for all the help
> 
> Stay safe and have a nice day,
> 
> Ben


Hi Ben, 

That guide is mine.  

For CMS 0, you should use the SDR709 colorspace for SDR.
For CMS 1, you should use the SDR2020 colorspace for HDR with a projector.

I have a JVC RS540, and use two separate user profiles on it, because I want different iris settings for SDR and HDR sources. The HDR user profile requires higher brightness, so I have the manual iris wide open.

I hope this helps.

Mark


----------



## wertman

Peule_P said:


> it sure will, but you gotta wonder is the investment worth it for your projector or perhaps better to invest in a N-series (and add a Lumagen to that  )


I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## jrp

Comments on recent posts:

If you own a Trinnov Altitude, and if you have the original 4k MDS switch board (it has 7 inputs), I recommend you use either Input 6 or Input 7 to connect audio from the Pro (or any source). Input 6 is the next best. Avoid inputs 1 to 4 as they go through two HDMI input chips in series and have on occasion been known to have more issues.

I do not have any experience with the recently released Trinnov switch board. So no recommendation on input choice for that.

==== 

If you have a projector/TV that does well with Rec 2020 data (even if only near P3 Gamut), such as the JVC's and Sony's, I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to not have the color filter). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.

If on the other hand your projector/TV only has a Gamut around Rec 709, set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709. It seems many (most?) DLP projectors fall in this category.

Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.

The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


----------



## wl1

jrp said:


> .., I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to *not have the color filter*). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.
> 
> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


I’m looking at JVC projectors, and the bold bit would indicate to buy an N5 over N7....have I interpreted this correctly?


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> Comments on recent posts:
> 
> If you own a Trinnov Altitude, and if you have the original 4k MDS switch board (it has 7 inputs), I recommend you use either Input 6 or Input 7 to connect audio from the Pro (or any source). Input 6 is the next best. Avoid inputs 1 to 4 as they go through two HDMI input chips in series and have on occasion been known to have more issues.
> 
> I do not have any experience with the recently released Trinnov switch board. So no recommendation on input choice for that.
> 
> ====
> 
> If you have a projector/TV that does well with Rec 2020 data (even if only near P3 Gamut), such as the JVC's and Sony's, I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to not have the color filter). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.
> 
> If on the other hand your projector/TV only has a Gamut around Rec 709, set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709. It seems many (most?) DLP projectors fall in this category.
> 
> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


Hi Jim, I’ve got an altitude with the older board. I’m still trying to get to the bottom of the occasional audio drop out that lasts around a second or so, it only seems to occur once, sometimes twice a film.

I’ve been using a zappiti pro, audio has been fed through the lumagen into input 7 of my trinnov.

Tonight I wired up zappiti>Trinnov>lumagen>projector, I watched Bourne identity all the way through with no drop outs.

This isn’t to say I won’t get any, but getting to the bottom on my issue is proving troublesome......


----------



## jrp

wl1 said:


> I’m looking at JVC projectors, and the bold bit would indicate to buy an N5 over N7....have I interpreted this correctly?


Nope.

My comment was just that a color filter can reduce light output. For the NX-7 and NX-9 the color filter can be moved in or out of the light path and my comment was about the choice being available. For these the light reduction with the color filter in is about 15% (from reports of others) but it gives better Gamut coverage of P3 with the filter in place. So you may well want the color filter in place for these. For our RS4500 the light loss with the color filter in place is about 40%. This is too much for our theater, so I run our RS4500 in "HDR" color mode with Gamma set to 2.4.

Looking at the specs, the only differences that jumped out at me is the NX-7 is rated at 80000:1 contrast native and 1900 Lumens, versus 40000:1 native contrast, an 1800 Lumens for the NX-5. The lack of discussion about a color filter in the NX-5 tells me there isn't on. Even without the color filter it would cover a good portion of P3 Gamut. The NX-7 color filter would improve Gamut coverage, with the above mentioned (approximately) 15% light output reduction.

So likely the NX-9's get the best DiLA chips, then the NX-7's get the middle of the yield-curve DiLA chips, and the NX-5 get the lower tier chips. I am not in any way saying the NX-5 chips are bad, just not as good compared to the NX-7.

I do tell people that you budget for the Radiance Pro first and then the remaining budget for the projector. This is not just sales talk. I truly believe the Radiance Pro is the most important to have first, and then choose a projector. So saving a bit might influence your decision toward the NX-5. I believe the NX-5 plus the Radiance Pro would be a good choice. I have talked to a lot of people about a Radiance Pro + the NX-7 being IMO a better choice than the NX-9 without the Radiance Pro. And of course the Radiance Pro plus the NX-9 is an even better choice if budget allows.


----------



## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> Hi Jim, I’ve got an altitude with the older board. I’m still trying to get to the bottom of the occasional audio drop out that lasts around a second or so, it only seems to occur once, sometimes twice a film.
> 
> I’ve been using a zappiti pro, audio has been fed through the lumagen into input 7 of my Trinnov.
> 
> Tonight I wired up zappiti>Trinnov>lumagen>projector, I watched Bourne identity all the way through with no drop outs.
> 
> This isn’t to say I won’t get any, but getting to the bottom on my issue is proving troublesome......


It is my opinion that the Trinnov can have issues with the faster edge rates of the Pro. You can try increasing to three, or five, meter Tributaries UHDP passive cables from source to Pro and Pro to Trinnov to see if it helps. This can help by attenuating the HDMI signals.

Contact Trinnov support and make sure your unit has both the latest software and, more importantly, the latest I/O switch board "firmware" (which Lumagen calls microcode). We had dropouts before we got Trinnov to update our Altitude 16 to the latest I/O firmware. Note that we also went to three meter UHDP cables. Since these changes we have hardly ever had an audio dropout.

Perhaps you have already tried these things, but if not they are worth testing. Of course you can send sources through the Trinnov first if that works for you.


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## woofer

jrp said:


> I believe the NX-5 plus the Radiance Pro would be a good choice.


As well as my Z1/RS4500 i also have an NX5 here i use for testing from time to time......i can assure you the NX5 combined with the Radiance Pro makes an awesome combo.... 

IMO the NX5 is VERY underrated. In fact the N5 with 200+ hours actually puts outputs more light than the 3 NX9,s i have had...


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## ht guy

jrp said:


> ...I do tell people that you budget for the Radiance Pro first and then the remaining budget for the projector. This is not just sales talk. I truly believe the Radiance Pro is the most important to have first, and then choose a projector... I have talked to a lot of people about a Radiance Pro + the NX-7 being IMO a better choice than the NX-9 without the Radiance Pro. And of course the Radiance Pro plus the NX-9 is an even better choice if budget allows.


That was the decision tree I followed. I really wanted the NX-9, but that plus the 4242 was more than I was willing to spend for our HT. And I have been 100%+ satisfied (more like blown away!) with the images from the NX-7 + 4242.


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## vp4lifehva

I am thinking about purchasing a Lumagen sometime next year to be able to hook up 4 display devices (2 JVC projectors, LG OLED, Sony LED) and 8 input devices. Are all of the input and output slots on the 4446 18Ghz? I mostly only watch 4K content. I'm currently using an HDFury Maestro.


----------



## aguy

Mark Burton said:


> Hi Jim, I’ve got an altitude with the older board. I’m still trying to get to the bottom of the occasional audio drop out that lasts around a second or so, it only seems to occur once, sometimes twice a film.
> 
> I’ve been using a zappiti pro, audio has been fed through the lumagen into input 7 of my trinnov.
> 
> Tonight I wired up zappiti>Trinnov>lumagen>projector, I watched Bourne identity all the way through with no drop outs.
> 
> This isn’t to say I won’t get any, but getting to the bottom on my issue is proving troublesome......


Does the Zappiti use Kodi as its media player ? 

If so there is a known bug in Kodi playing atoms tracks that leads to the occasional dropout of audio. It doesn’t happen if playing the disc directly from blu ray player. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Surge2018

jrp said:


> If you have a projector/TV that does well with Rec 2020 data (even if only near P3 Gamut), such as the JVC's and Sony's, I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to not have the color filter). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.
> 
> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


@jrp correct me if I’m wrong, but if you do this, then the Lumagen will use the calibration settings for CMS1 rather than CMS0, correct? In my case, my ~100 point 3D LUT was done with Calman on CMS0 and SDR709. 
For SDR2020 and HDR, the picture settings are in my Sony projector, not in the Lumagen. I am outputting SDR content and SDR2020 with DTM from the Lumagen, but I switch the picture mode manually on the Sony. 
If I do the above, will it use the 3D LUT settings from CMS0 for all content?


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> If you have a projector/TV that does well with Rec 2020 data (even if only near P3 Gamut), such as the JVC's and Sony's, I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to not have the color filter). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.
> 
> If on the other hand your projector/TV only has a Gamut around Rec 709, set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709. It seems many (most?) DLP projectors fall in this category.
> 
> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


Hi Jim, 

Is this recommendation only for the JVC NX-5/7/9 series? I have an RS-540, and use two different user profiles so that I can have two different manual iris settings to calibrate full white prior to profiling the display. In my setup, this allows for optimization of contrast because the iris can be closed down for SDR. I am also using the filter on in both of the user modes. 

I know that you also posted the tip about using the same user profile on the projector, and adjusting the Lumagen CMS white level to reduce light output for SDR, but I assumed this would not increase contrast in the projector, since the iris setting would be the same.

For SDR, the iris is set at -11 for 48 Nits, using SDR709.
For HDR, the iris is set at 0 for 97 Nits, using SDR2020. 

What am I missing?

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## Kris Deering

You can do it with different picture modes in the projector or utilizing one. If you use different picture modes optimized fir contrast and brightness, there really is no reason to use SDR2020. I typically only recommend doing it the way Jim mentions of the client uses the same brightness for both (happens a lot with systems with big screens that don’t have a lot of light to spare) or with projectors that have tedious switching between signals (like Jim’s) that annoy the end user.


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## Surge2018

Kris Deering said:


> You can do it with different picture modes in the projector or utilizing one. If you use different picture modes optimized fir contrast and brightness, there really is no reason to use SDR2020. I typically only recommend doing it the way Jim mentions of the client uses the same brightness for both (happens a lot with systems with big screens that don’t have a lot of light to spare) or with projectors that have tedious switching between signals (like Jim’s) that annoy the end user.


I’m confused. Doesn’t SDR content use the 709 color gamut, rather than 2020? Are you saying that as long as you calibrated your system using the expanded 2020 gamut, you can use that mode to display 709 content as well?


----------



## aguy

Hi folks. 

A new user here. Very much a noob setting up the radiance pro. I’m wondering where the link to the starting guide is that was mentioned a few posts ago. 

Also a quick question that is bugging me at the moment. PS4 plugged into input 2. It is shearing every second or so ( looks like the PS4 is pausing it’s output for a moment. ). But this doesn’t happen when I connect hdmi directly from PS4 to the tv so it’s happening in the radiance pro. I’m just on the default settings at the moment and wondering if anyone has a pointer in the right direction for this. 

Many thanks and happy holidays. Stay safe 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Surge2018

aguy said:


> Also a quick question that is bugging me at the moment. PS4 plugged into input 2. It is shearing every second or so ( looks like the PS4 is pausing it’s output for a moment. ). But this doesn’t happen when I connect hdmi directly from PS4 to the tv so it’s happening in the radiance pro. I’m just on the default settings at the moment and wondering if anyone has a pointer in the right direction for this.


I’m no expert, but you probably want to get an answer quickly, I know I would. My guess is this is an HDMI handshake issue. But first ensure the HDMI cables are connected fully and that you have high speed good quality cables.
Then power everything off, and restart as Jim from Lumagen mentioned a post or two above. 
You should also try switching to a different input on the Lumagen, then back to 2, and try this with the TV and AV receiver as well.
I use a PS5 with my Lumagen Pro and there’s no issue; but sometimes I have to switch the projector or my AV receiver to a different input, then back again, for the image to sync.


----------



## giomania

aguy said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> A new user here. Very much a noob setting up the radiance pro. I’m wondering where the link to the starting guide is that was mentioned a few posts ago.
> 
> Also a quick question that is bugging me at the moment. PS4 plugged into input 2. It is shearing every second or so ( looks like the PS4 is pausing it’s output for a moment. ). But this doesn’t happen when I connect hdmi directly from PS4 to the tv so it’s happening in the radiance pro. I’m just on the default settings at the moment and wondering if anyone has a pointer in the right direction for this.
> 
> Many thanks and happy holidays. Stay safe
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is linked in my signature, but you cannot see the signatures when using TapaTalk, so, here is the link: 









Lumagen Radiance Pro Setup & Calibration Tips - 2022-02.docx







docs.google.com





Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## teachsac

*Major thread clean up and rollback to last applicable post.*


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## aguy

giomania said:


> It is linked in my signature, but you cannot see the signatures when using TapaTalk, so, here is the link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro Setup & Calibration Tips - 2022-02.docx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> docs.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks for the link. 

By way of an update today it all is working fine. Doesn’t seem to be related to anything specific that I’ve done. 

I did update to the latest firmware today but the PS4 was fine before the update. Who knows. 

I was on 100619 prior to the update today so lots of advances since then 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clark Burk

aguy said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> By way of an update today it all is working fine. Doesn’t seem to be related to anything specific that I’ve done.
> 
> I did update to the latest firmware today but the PS4 was fine before the update. Who knows.
> 
> I was on 100619 prior to the update today so lots of advances since then
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You should like the changes. Quite a few major updates have been posted since 10/19.


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## bjorg

Has anyone put together a Kaleidescape script of good DTM scenes? Would be useful for recalibrating when there are algorithm changes.


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## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> @jrp correct me if I’m wrong, but if you do this, then the Lumagen will use the calibration settings for CMS1 rather than CMS0, correct? In my case, my ~100 point 3D LUT was done with Calman on CMS0 and SDR709.
> For SDR2020 and HDR, the picture settings are in my Sony projector, not in the Lumagen. I am outputting SDR content and SDR2020 with DTM from the Lumagen, but I switch the picture mode manually on the Sony.
> If I do the above, will it use the 3D LUT settings from CMS0 for all content?


If you set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR2020, SDR content still uses CMS0, and HDR content uses CMS1.

Using this setup you can do a single SDR calibration to Rec 2020. Then use it for both CMS0 and CMS1. You calibrate one CMS and copy to the other. If you calibrated CMS0 to 709, you need to choose to not follow this suggestion, or reset the CMS0 to defaults (and then you can do the SDR 2020 calibration if desired).

You need to be aware that if you use a pattern generator that it outputting SDR with the Rec 2020 flag that CMS1 would be selected. If you instead use the Lumagen internal patterns it depends on if the color calibration software uses "Pattern with Mode" or just "Pattern" mode. To avoid any chance of the calibration going wrong due to some setting issue in the color calibration software for either internal or external patterns, what I do is use the Output Setup Menu to select CMS0 for the HDR/2020 column and leaving the SDR 601/709 column at its default of CMS0. 

You also need to make sure that while you are calibrating to SDR2020, that Auto Convert is Off forCMS0.

This way you know for sure you are calibrating CMS0, without any conversion, no matter if the SDR2020 flag is set or not. Then once the calibration is complete I again set the HDR/2020 column to CMS1.

================= 

I hesitate to compilate this, but there is an option to select both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace as SDR2020, AND do a SDR709 calibration for CMS0 (and a SDR2020 calibration for CMS1).

You set CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020, and _enable_ Auto Convert during the calibration (and while watching content). You then do a normal SDR Rec 709 calibration for CMS0.

Yes, this does work. No kidding, it really does.

You setup the calibration software for SDR Rec 709 patterns and Rec 709 targets. During the calibration the Pro converts the SDR 709 pattern data to be correct for SDR Rec 2020 (since Auto Convert is on). Then since the projector is in SDR Rec 2020 mode, the Rec 709 patterns (converted to 2020 by the Radiance Pro) show at their correct Rec 709 xyY points. So the calibration proceeds as any Rec 709 SDR calibration would.

Then you can do a SDR 2020 calibration for CMS1.

This gives you a way to insure the SDR calibration includes a 3D LUT, even if your calibration software is not good at doing a Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration, while still eliminating the Pro output restart needed to change from a 709 to/from a 2020 color format. It also eliminate the need to switch the projector from 709 to 2020 mode.


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Is this recommendation only for the JVC NX-5/7/9 series? I have an RS-540, and use two different user profiles so that I can have two different manual iris settings to calibrate full white prior to profiling the display. In my setup, this allows for optimization of contrast because the iris can be closed down for SDR. I am also using the filter on in both of the user modes.
> 
> I know that you also posted the tip about using the same user profile on the projector, and adjusting the Lumagen CMS white level to reduce light output for SDR, but I assumed this would not increase contrast in the projector, since the iris setting would be the same.
> 
> For SDR, the iris is set at -11 for 48 Nits, using SDR709.
> For HDR, the iris is set at 0 for 97 Nits, using SDR2020.
> 
> What am I missing?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


As Kris pointed out, you need to consider if you want to have a different maximum light output for SDR versus HDR.

SDR for commercial theaters is generally targeted at 14 foot-lamberts (16 foot-lamberts open-gate). This is 48 nits, which matches your target.

However, commercial content mastering targets 106 nits (-ish. I have heard numbers from 100 to 108 nits). While the human eye adapts to the 50% gain commercial theaters use, I prefer a brighter image that more closely matches the master target level. I suspect that 14 foot-Lamberts was selected because it was achievable and worked as a "minimum acceptable brightness" and not because it is the optimal brightness.

I suppose this is personal taste, but if I had a projector anywhere in the 50 to 100 nit range I would set the brightness for SDR equal to maximum brightness. I expect others disagree.

If you disagree, I recommend you at least do a test to see. For your 97 nits maximum output, allow SDR maximum to be 97 nits. Then if this appears too bright see if changing the Gamma to 2.6, from Bt.1886 or 2.4, makes the image look better. Many year ago I was installing a VisionPro HDP in a large screening room for a studio. I learned the studio targets 2.6 Gamma for viewing their SDR content. While I tend to target Gamma = 2.4, I also like SDR movie content at Gamma = 2.6 if there is enough brightness out of the projector. Again this is personal preference, but might be worth testing.

As you note, I have suggested that one can reduce the "White Level" in CMS0 if you want less brightness for SDR content. However, this does reduce achievable contrast-ratio. In addition, depending on how linear the projector grayscale is, this can increase dE's for SDR. In that case you would want to do a separate calibration for SDR. This is typically what is done and can still use the SDR2020 output mode as described in my previous post.

==== 

I am recommending using CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR2020 for projectors that have a Gamut exceeding Rec 709, and that correctly display Rec 2020 data within their achievable color Gamut. Certainly current JVC and Sony projectors meet this criteria, but I believe your JVC RS5XX/6XX also meets the criteria to follow this suggestion.

Even if you want a separate calibration and projector light output setting for SDR versus HDR, my suggestion to use SDR2020 for both CMS0 calibration, and a separate CMS1 calibration, is still valid since it eliminate one cause of an output restart switching SDR (Bt.709) to/from HDR Bt.2020).

This is a personal choice, and setting CMS0 = SDR709 is certainly a valid choice.


----------



## darksets

Surge2018 said:


> I too am thoroughly enjoying the latest firmware (120320, so not quite the latest). These DTM algorithms are based on decades of experience from Lumagen, and it shows.
> 
> On my Sony 995, I00” Stewart Grayhawk G4 (0.9 gain), 10’ throw distance:
> Sony settings:
> Laser light output = Max
> Gamma = 2.6
> Lumagen settings:
> MaxLight = 1070
> DynPad = 5
> LowRatio = 31
> 
> DynPad was 2 before this update. 5 really improves the perception of color saturation and luminous range. It seemed just a tad dark at first, but you get used to it, and the benefits are what I just mentioned.
> As Jim said, we tend to “like” brighter images, so it takes some discipline to stick with a higher DynPad setting before deciding on what’s best for you.


By MaxLight do you mean "Defaul HDR Src MaxCLL" ? Because for "Display Max Light" it seems super high. I have it at 400 and "Defaul HDR Src MaxCLL" equal to 1100. Specifically my settings are:

Display Max Light: 400
DTM Pad: 3
Ratio: 23
Shape: 3
Tran: 7
Defaul HDR Src MaxCLL: 1100


----------



## jrp

darksets said:


> By MaxLight do you mean "Defaul HDR Src MaxCLL" ? Because for "Display Max Light" it seems super high. I have it at 400 and "Defaul HDR Src MaxCLL" equal to 1100. Specifically my settings are:
> 
> Display Max Light: 400
> DTM Pad: 3
> Ratio: 23
> Shape: 3
> Tran: 7
> Default HDR Src MaxCLL: 1100


We strongly recommend the Radiance Pro _not_ be in Service Mode when setting the HDR parameters. We simplified the settings to help people avoid messing things up. I recommend you update to the latest software, then go back to User Mode (your settings indicate you are in Service Mode), and then use the Input.Option.HDR Setup to reset HDR parameters to default. Then do a Save and start over. This will insure your are starting with our currently recommended settings.

====

There is a multiplier from measured maximum light to the Radiance Pro CMS Max Light setting. This is mostly for "historical reasons" but it works well. Just multiply your measured maximum light by around 5 to 6, depending on your preference. If you do not know your measured maximum light, the default Max Light of 500 is usually a good starting point. For our Lumagen Demo Theater we have Max Light set to 480 for our measured light output of 78 nits.

The "Low Ratio" allows you to adjust for the "Dark Scene" maximum light. You adjust Low Ratio (after setting Max Light) until the Pro "Left Arrow" menu reports from 1X to 1.5X your measured light in nits. It does this when you have Low Ratio selected.

Having an adjustment for Max Light for both bright and dark scenes allows you to trade off how bright the images are versus the color saturation so dark and bright content both look optimal.


----------



## Vinturbo

EDIT


----------



## Vinturbo

Mike_WI said:


> A Radiance app would be cool


An App to govern the Radiance would be very important if it had the possibility of being able to change all the parameters. It can be used to help users in need. The problem is that it has to work with WINDOWS. In this way, via remote connection (to WINDOWS), distant users in difficulty can be helped. It would be appreciated even if it is paid!


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## bobof

The best way for any such "app" to work would surely be via web pages served up to a browser (be they from a local server program talking to Radiance via a serial converter, or perhaps something running on a Raspberry pi). That way functions can be easily used across any devices just with small scaling tweaks to the web interface. If you need to assist someone remotely, then you just use something like W10 Quick Assist and help out using the web pages in their browser.


----------



## Clark Burk

Not sure if this would even be possible or practical but could a Bluetooth to USB adapter be plugged into the lumagen then used with a smartphone to possibly do firmware updates and control functions if an app was created for iOS or Android?


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> Not sure if this would even be possible or practical but could a Bluetooth to USB adapter be plugged into the lumagen then used with a smartphone to possibly do firmware updates and control functions if an app was created for iOS or Android?


Firmware update over Bluetooth? .... shudder!


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> The best way for any such "app" to work would surely be via web pages served up to a browser (be they from a local server program talking to Radiance via a serial converter, or perhaps something running on a Raspberry pi). That way functions can be easily used across any devices just with small scaling tweaks to the web interface. If you need to assist someone remotely, then you just use something like W10 Quick Assist and help out using the web pages in their browser.


I've seen others share screenshots of apps they have built for some of the functionality. I started a similar project myself for Rasperry Pi using .NET 5, but have had little time recently to work on it (so many projects, so few hours in the day...). I'd be happy to share what I have so far. It's primitive, but runs on a Raspberry Pi and can talk to the Radiance Pro via USB port (same one that is used for updating). In short, it's a start.


----------



## hamster71

Hello, I just bought a Sony 915es (790es at home in Europe). I would now like to calibrate it with my Lumagen Pro. For SDR no worries but in HDR, what do you advise me?

Calibrate by exiting in sdr rec709 or sdr bt2020? Which Lumagen output setting will give me the best results?

I use the soft chromapure with a display 3pro display probe...


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> I hesitate to compilate this, but there is an option to select both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace as SDR2020, AND do a SDR709 calibration for CMS0 (and a SDR2020 calibration for CMS1).
> 
> You set CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020, and _enable_ Auto Convert during the calibration (and while watching content). You then do a normal SDR Rec 709 calibration for CMS0.
> 
> Yes, this does work. No kidding, it really does.
> 
> You setup the calibration software for SDR Rec 709 patterns and Rec 709 targets. During the calibration the Pro converts the SDR 709 pattern data to be correct for SDR Rec 2020 (since Auto Convert is on). Then since the projector is in SDR Rec 2020 mode, the Rec 709 patterns (converted to 2020 by the Radiance Pro) show at their correct Rec 709 xyY points. So the calibration proceeds as any Rec 709 SDR calibration would.
> 
> Then you can do a SDR 2020 calibration for CMS1.
> 
> This gives you a way to insure the SDR calibration includes a 3D LUT, even if your calibration software is not good at doing a Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration, while still eliminating the Pro output restart needed to change from a 709 to/from a 2020 color format. It also eliminate the need to switch the projector from 709 to 2020 mode.





jrp said:


> As Kris pointed out, you need to consider if you want to have a different maximum light output for SDR versus HDR.
> 
> SDR for commercial theaters is generally targeted at 14 foot-lamberts (16 foot-lamberts open-gate). This is 48 nits, which matches your target.
> 
> However, commercial content mastering targets 106 nits (-ish. I have heard numbers from 100 to 108 nits). While the human eye adapts to the 50% gain commercial theaters use, I prefer a brighter image that more closely matches the master target level. I suspect that 14 foot-Lamberts was selected because it was achievable and worked as a "minimum acceptable brightness" and not because it is the optimal brightness.
> 
> I suppose this is personal taste, but if I had a projector anywhere in the 50 to 100 nit range I would set the brightness for SDR equal to maximum brightness. I expect others disagree.
> 
> If you disagree, I recommend you at least do a test to see. For your 97 nits maximum output, allow SDR maximum to be 97 nits. Then if this appears too bright see if *changing the Gamma to 2.6, from Bt.1886 or 2.4, makes the image look better*. Many year ago I was installing a VisionPro HDP in a large screening room for a studio. I learned the studio targets 2.6 Gamma for viewing their SDR content. While I tend to target Gamma = 2.4, I also like SDR movie content at Gamma = 2.6 if there is enough brightness out of the projector. Again this is personal preference, but might be worth testing.
> 
> As you note, I have suggested that one can reduce the "White Level" in CMS0 if you want less brightness for SDR content. However, this does reduce achievable contrast-ratio. In addition, depending on how linear the projector grayscale is, this can increase dE's for SDR. In that case you would want to do a separate calibration for SDR. This is typically what is done and can still use the SDR2020 output mode as described in my previous post.
> 
> ====
> 
> I am recommending using CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR2020 for projectors that have a Gamut exceeding Rec 709, and that correctly display Rec 2020 data within their achievable color Gamut. Certainly current JVC and Sony projectors meet this criteria, but I believe your JVC RS5XX/6XX also meets the criteria to follow this suggestion.
> 
> Even if you want a separate calibration and projector light output setting for SDR versus HDR, my suggestion to use SDR2020 for both CMS0 calibration, and a separate CMS1 calibration, is still valid since it eliminate one cause of an output restart switching SDR (Bt.709) to/from HDR Bt.2020).
> 
> This is a personal choice, and setting CMS0 = SDR709 is certainly a valid choice.


Thanks for the information, Jim. I am definitely willing to try using SDR2020 for both SDR and HDR on my JVC RS540. The only question I had about your recommendation is the option of changing SDR gamma from 2.4 to 2.6 if I find the image too bright. 

I think changing the gamma would require the use of another user mode in the display, unless this can be somehow be accomplished in the Radiance Pro? 

Thank you.

Mark


----------



## bjorg

KarlKlammer said:


> This is a tool I wrote last year. Sorry it is not an app  just a windows application. It connects via RS232. And in my case, I have the Radiance Pro connected to an RS232 device server in my network. This way the tool is able to connect via network and a virtual RS232 port to the Radiance.
> The functionality is also based on tech tip 11.
> 
> A brief overview of the features
> 
> On/Off/Restart/Restart of the ouput board
> info area
> direct selection of Mem A/B/C/D, direct selection of input/mode/style/CMS
> view Info OSD and HDR profiler
> view internal test patterns for geometry, contrast and colors
> GUI for parametric gamma EQ
> remote control function for LightSpace and gamma EQ GUI
> Import/Export/Reset for the current gamma configuration
> Import/Export/Reset for the current CMS
> renaming of modes, styles and CMS
> execution of special menu commands
> change of DTM parameters
> virtual Remote
> manual vertical shift


Did you publish the source code for your implementation? Seems like you already figured out a ton of capabilities!


----------



## giomania

hamster71 said:


> Hello, I just bought a Sony 915es (790es at home in Europe). I would now like to calibrate it with my Lumagen Pro. For SDR no worries but in HDR, what do you advise me?
> 
> Calibrate by exiting in sdr rec709 or sdr bt2020? Which Lumagen output setting will give me the best results?
> 
> I use the soft chromapure with a display 3pro display probe...


SDR2020 will provide the best results for a projector.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## KarlKlammer

bjorg said:


> Did you publish the source code for your implementation? Seems like you already figured out a ton of capabilities!


Yes, I invested quite a bit time in this tool.
It is free, but no freeware. Sorry, I'm not going to publish the sources.

Some additional Screenshots


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## hamster71

giomania said:


> SDR2020 will provide the best results for a projector.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I'll calibrate like this then.

I just read the last few pages and only now see what Jrp recommends.

The sony recognizes the signal and switches itself to REC709 or BT2020. What then is the point of also calibrating SDR 601/709 signals in SDR2020 ?


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## 187crew003

What would be better image quality?

4k streamed or 1080p upscaled with the lumagen?

I’m watching avengers age of ultron on Apple TV 4K but own the 1080 disc. Which would yield the better pic.


----------



## bjorg

187crew003 said:


> What would be better image quality?
> 
> 4k streamed or 1080p upscaled with the lumagen?
> 
> I’m watching avengers age of ultron on Apple TV 4K but own the 1080 disc. Which would yield the better pic.


Depends on your bandwidth and where you're streaming it from. If it's Disney+, I have been very impressed with the quality of their streaming. I found The Mandalorian was incredibly sharp for a streamed show!


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## 187crew003

Yes from Disney+. Thanks!


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## darksets

jrp said:


> We strongly recommend the Radiance Pro _not_ be in Service Mode when setting the HDR parameters. We simplified the settings to help people avoid messing things up. I recommend you update to the latest software, then go back to User Mode (your settings indicate you are in Service Mode), and then use the Input.Option.HDR Setup to reset HDR parameters to default. Then do a Save and start over. This will insure your are starting with our currently recommended settings.
> 
> ====
> 
> There is a multiplier from measured maximum light to the Radiance Pro CMS Max Light setting. This is mostly for "historical reasons" but it works well. Just multiply your measured maximum light by around 5 to 6, depending on your preference. If you do not know your measured maximum light, the default Max Light of 500 is usually a good starting point. For our Lumagen Demo Theater we have Max Light set to 480 for our measured light output of 78 nits.
> 
> The "Low Ratio" allows you to adjust for the "Dark Scene" maximum light. You adjust Low Ratio (after setting Max Light) until the Pro "Left Arrow" menu reports from 1X to 1.5X your measured light in nits. It does this when you have Low Ratio selected.
> 
> Having an adjustment for Max Light for both bright and dark scenes allows you to trade off how bright the images are versus the color saturation so dark and bright content both look optimal.


Thanks Jim. I guess the menu was left in service mode by my calibrator. I followed your instructions and the outcome was similar to my old settings. I left the Display Max Light at 400, your RS4500 is a little brighter than my 995. The only difference is the Low Ratio which is now at 31. It didn't seem to make any difference though, maybe it only makes a difference with certain scenes. Overall an excellent picture as before.


----------



## Hawkmarket

187crew003 said:


> What would be better image quality?
> 
> 4k streamed or 1080p upscaled with the lumagen?
> 
> I’m watching avengers age of ultron on Apple TV 4K but own the 1080 disc. Which would yield the better pic.


Forgive my complete ignorance as I'm still learning about this product. Since the recommendation is to stream through Disney plus is the Apple TV still funneling through the Lumagen and now it will provide DTM from the Apple TV and specifically Disney Plus in this case vs. upscaling a 1080p disc?


----------



## 187crew003

Hawkmarket said:


> Forgive my complete ignorance as I'm still learning about this product. Since the recommendation is to stream through Disney plus is the Apple TV still funneling through the Lumagen and now it will provide DTM from the Apple TV and specifically Disney Plus in this case vs. upscaling a 1080p disc?


 Correct


----------



## Hawkmarket

For anyone who watches sports and has a Lumagen is it capable of putting a couple different sources on a screen for multigame viewing? For example can your Apple TV stream a game on one half of the screen while the Cable box is feeding another game for the other half of the screen? The best I’ve seen of this is ESPN Multicast through the latest Apple TV but of course it only splits games that are being shown on the ESPN family of network as all the data is coming from the ESPN app on the Apple TV. Games shown on Fox/NBC etc. can’t be shared with the ESPN screen. This isn’t picture in picture, it’s multisource split viewing.


----------



## Kris Deering

Hawkmarket said:


> For anyone who watches sports and has a Lumagen is it capable of putting a couple different sources on a screen for multigame viewing? For example can your Apple TV stream a game on one half of the screen while the Cable box is feeding another game for the other half of the screen? The best I’ve seen of this is ESPN Multicast through the latest Apple TV but of course it only splits games that are being shown on the ESPN family of network as all the data is coming from the ESPN app on the Apple TV. Games shown on Fox/NBC etc. can’t be shared with the ESPN screen. This isn’t picture in picture, it’s multisource split viewing.


No


----------



## Hawkmarket

Will the Pip/Pop updates allow for this in the future?


----------



## fatherom

Hawkmarket said:


> For anyone who watches sports and has a Lumagen is it capable of putting a couple different sources on a screen for multigame viewing? For example can your Apple TV stream a game on one half of the screen while the Cable box is feeding another game for the other half of the screen? The best I’ve seen of this is ESPN Multicast through the latest Apple TV but of course it only splits games that are being shown on the ESPN family of network as all the data is coming from the ESPN app on the Apple TV. Games shown on Fox/NBC etc. can’t be shared with the ESPN screen. This isn’t picture in picture, it’s multisource split viewing.





Kris Deering said:


> No


Isn't the planned PIP/POP something that would address this?


----------



## bjorg

KarlKlammer said:


> Yes, I invested quite a bit time in this tool.
> It is free, but no freeware. Sorry, I'm not going to publish the sources.


That looks rad! Any advice on initializing the com channel? Do you change the speed on initial connect or always keep the default settings? Do you keep it open the whole time or open/close it for each interaction? I'm curious, because it looks like the RadiancePro will emit unprompted messages. Wondering how you parse the responses when those occur. Any nuggets of wisdom your willing to share are much appreciated?

Pretty please....


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## SJHT

This is why we want PIP/POP. You can also watch sports while playing Xbox. Not complaining as we have received some high priority enhancements, but it’s finally time....


----------



## Hawkmarket

SJHT said:


> This is why we want PIP/POP. You can also watch sports while playing Xbox. Not complaining as we have received some high priority enhancements, but it’s finally time....


Yeah I think I'm about to purchase a Lumagen and this would be a big variable on which one I choose. As I understand it only the 4444 and above will have the PIP/POP feature so whether or not it will be able to allow me to watch multiple inputs split screen is on my need to know list before I pull the trigger.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bjorg said:


> That looks rad! Any advice on initializing the com channel? Do you change the speed on initial connect or always keep the default settings? Do you keep it open the whole time or open/close it for each interaction? I'm curious, because it looks like the RadiancePro will emit unprompted messages. Wondering how you parse the responses when those occur. Any nuggets of wisdom your willing to share are much appreciated?
> 
> Pretty please....


I initially connect with 9600 Baud and keep the connection open. That is fast enough for the 'usual' commands. For importing and exporting the CMS, I change the speed to 230k Baud.
Yes, the Radiance can send unprompted messages, but I haven't activated them (yet).


----------



## blake

KarlKlammer said:


> I initially connect with 9600 Baud and keep the connection open. That is fast enough for the 'usual' commands. For importing and exporting the CMS, I change the speed to 230k Baud.
> Yes, the Radiance can send unprompted messages, but I haven't activated them (yet).


When activated , what unprompted messages does it report ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bjorg

blake said:


> When activated , what unprompted messages does it report ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure all that is possible, but you find the RS-232 commands in Lumagen Tech Tip 11

The following is a section that takes about mode changes:


----------



## SJHT

Hawkmarket said:


> Yeah I think I'm about to purchase a Lumagen and this would be a big variable on which one I choose. As I understand it only the 4444 and above will have the PIP/POP feature so whether or not it will be able to allow me to watch multiple inputs split screen is on my need to know list before I pull the trigger.


I had this feature with my previous Lumagen and didn’t even think about getting a unit that didn’t offer. We all have been patient and can’t complain because of the amazing things that have been added. But, bring PIP/POP on in 2021! A feature which is impossible with the competition. SJ


----------



## blake

bjorg said:


> Not sure all that is possible, but you find the RS-232 commands in Lumagen Tech Tip 11
> 
> The following is a section that takes about mode changes:
> View attachment 3071822


Would this be useful to tell a control system what the new aspect ratio is (if auto AR detection is on)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrp

giomania said:


> ...
> 
> I think changing the gamma would require the use of another user mode in the display, unless this can be somehow be accomplished in the Radiance Pro?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Mark


If you want a Gamma of 2.6, if you have Gamma = 2.4 in the projector you can set the CMS1->Gamma_factor to 2.6/2.4 = 1.08. Do this before you calibrate the 1D LUT and check your Black Level after this change.

Alternately you can target a Gamma of 2.6 in the 1D LUT calibration.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Would this be useful to tell a control system what the new aspect ratio is (if auto AR detection is on)?


Yes, the status updates includes both the input and output AR, which allows you to drive masks if you wish. You also get a lot of other info on the status update, such as whether the source is HDR or not.

I use a simple script on a raspberry Pi as a "control system" to receive these updates, and control both my projector user modes and my electric screen masks based on the updates. Works great. However if you're using pre-packed drivers for a "real" control system you might or might not have access to enough levers to be able to implement - I'm not sure of the completeness of those drivers.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Just a shortie, since I have do not use my AVR anymore to passthrough the video. Output 1 to receiver and output 2 to Projector. I also brought in a computer monitor to be able to setup and chnage in the AVR if needed -unfortutnately that didnt work with "B" for Video and Aufio on output 1 and 2, So what I did was to restrict to "A" on output 1 and "V" on output 2. 

Is that the "right" strategy and handling you think? SInce I dont wanna invest in a 4k monitor I thiught that limit the output 1 to "audio" was the right thing to do and abviously it was (1080i/60). Question: will I hinder anything or is it the right thing to do to restrict 1 to only A and 2 to V?

Happy new year folks


----------



## mskreis

giomania said:


> Thanks for the information, Jim. I am definitely willing to try using SDR2020 for both SDR and HDR on my JVC RS540. The only question I had about your recommendation is the option of changing SDR gamma from 2.4 to 2.6 if I find the image too bright.
> 
> I think changing the gamma would require the use of another user mode in the display, unless this can be somehow be accomplished in the Radiance Pro?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Mark


I’m also interested in this approach for my JVC RS640. I tire of the frequent profile changes on the 640 and based on other reports am concerned about iris longevity. I initially thought I would simply alter White Level to decrease brightness for SDR sources but was unaware of the adverse effects on contrast and grayscale dE.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bjorg

bobof said:


> Yes, the status updates includes both the input and output AR, which allows you to drive masks if you wish. You also get a lot of other info on the status update, such as whether the source is HDR or not.
> 
> I use a simple script on a raspberry Pi as a "control system" to receive these updates, and control both my projector user modes and my electric screen masks based on the updates. Works great. However if you're using pre-packed drivers for a "real" control system you might or might not have access to enough levers to be able to implement - I'm not sure of the completeness of those drivers.


Any chance to see those scripts? I'm curious how to distinguish between responses to commands vs. unsolicited messages.


----------



## sor

bobof said:


> Yes, the status updates includes both the input and output AR, which allows you to drive masks if you wish. You also get a lot of other info on the status update, such as whether the source is HDR or not.
> 
> I use a simple script on a raspberry Pi as a "control system" to receive these updates, and control both my projector user modes and my electric screen masks based on the updates. Works great. However if you're using pre-packed drivers for a "real" control system you might or might not have access to enough levers to be able to implement - I'm not sure of the completeness of those drivers.


How does it behave on a multi aspect ratio film? Do you get mask changes in the middle of the film or does the Lumagen stick to the beginning ratio? Maybe it depends on what the source is sending?

I have a CIH setup and I’m wondering what Christopher Nolan films will do. I’m fine regardless as long as it’s viewable (I don’t want a part looking stretched for example), whether the mask moves or not, whether the non-2.35:1 gets pillarboxed, it’s better than getting a stretch.


----------



## Kris Deering

sor said:


> How does it behave on a multi aspect ratio film? Do you get mask changes in the middle of the film or does the Lumagen stick to the beginning ratio? Maybe it depends on what the source is sending?
> 
> I have a CIH setup and I’m wondering what Christopher Nolan films will do. I’m fine regardless as long as it’s viewable (I don’t want a part looking stretched for example), whether the mask moves or not, whether the non-2.35:1 gets pillarboxed, it’s better than getting a stretch.


You would just engage the sticky aspect of your choice when the movie started. So let's say your watching WW84 and you want it to be scope the whole time. When the movie starts (if sticky is setup properly), you just press the scope button on the remote and it will stay in scope through the whole movie. When the movie stops the Lumagen will see a change in the HDMI signal and go back to being in Auto. Easy Peasy


----------



## bobof

sor said:


> How does it behave on a multi aspect ratio film? Do you get mask changes in the middle of the film or does the Lumagen stick to the beginning ratio? Maybe it depends on what the source is sending?
> 
> I have a CIH setup and I’m wondering what Christopher Nolan films will do. I’m fine regardless as long as it’s viewable (I don’t want a part looking stretched for example), whether the mask moves or not, whether the non-2.35:1 gets pillarboxed, it’s better than getting a stretch.


If you leave autoaspect fully engaged then yes, you do get aspect changes mid film (after all, that's what auto aspect is supposed to do!), and they don't work great mid-movie as they're usually slightly delayed vs the content (due to the Lumagen making sure the AR really changed). So you'd want to avoid them.

For those titles, you just have sticky enabled in your aspect settings (which you should have) and override it to 2.4:1 once the movie starts if you have a CIH screen, or your choice of 2.4:1 or 16:9 if you have a 16:9 / or CIW electric top / bottom mask screen.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Any chance to see those scripts? I'm curious how to distinguish between responses to commands vs. unsolicited messages.


There's a very basic aspect one here that controlled my screen controller here:








New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


He chased me out of the room, so I didn't get to see precisely what he was up to. I'm guessing it was a mix of direct work on both the JVC RS-500 and Lumagen Pro. He's got his own mix of CalMAN driven steps. I believe for HDR the activities were based on prior and rather lengthy calibrations...




www.avsforum.com




You just parse the serial line coming back and branch based on the first part of the line.
I recall I looked for the "!" to find the start of a "command", then matched the string up to then next "," and then dumped all the parameters.
It may be possible for this to be broken by some response type, but it seems to have been robust from what I can see over the course of a couple of years or so.

I've extended it in recent time to do control of the projector user mode modes based on SDR vs HDR, and more recently I even added an OSD from my NAD AVR volume level / surround mode. But that script has evolved into a nasty hackland... It works but it's a victim of being abused by me late at night (after a couple of beers usually...)

Hidden in a spoiler to protect the innocent! Note I had to modify the JVC library to make it work properly for setting user modes I recall, if you need it I can probably dig it out.


Spoiler






Python:


print ("Aspect script running")
rakoip = "192.168.10.231"
nadip = "192.168.10.173"

volume="NA"
codec="NA"
mode="None"
channels="NA"
rate="NA"
display = False
mute="NA"

screencommands = {
        "178": "3",
        "185": "4",
        "200": "5",
        "220": "2",
        "235": "6",
        "240": "1",
        }

rakocommand = rakoip + "/rako.cgi?room=10&ch=0&com="
print ("import serial")
import serial
print ("import urllib.request")
import urllib.request
print ("import datetime")
import datetime
print ("import time")
import time
print ("import jvc")
from jvc_command import(JVCCommand, Command, PictureMode)
print ("import thread")
import _thread
print ("import telnetlib")
import telnetlib

def checkNAD ():
    global volume
    global codec
    global mode
    global channels
    global rate
    global display
    global mute
    tn = telnetlib.Telnet(nadip)
    tn.write (b'Main.Volume=?\n')
    tn.write (b'Main.Audio.CODEC=\n')
    tn.write (b'Main.ListeningMode=\n')
    tn.write (b'Main.Audio.Channels=\n')
    tn.write (b'Main.Audio.Rate=\n')
    tn.write (b'Main.Mute=?\n')
    while True:
        line=(tn.read_until(b'\n')).decode("utf-8").strip()
#        print ("Stripped telnet line: "+line)
        command=line.partition('=')[0]
        value=line.partition('=')[2]
        print ("NAD command= "+command + "  value= " +value)
        if command == "Main.Mute":
            if value != mute:
                mute = value
                display = True
        if command == "Main.Volume":
            if value != volume:
                volume = value
                display = True
        if command=="Main.Audio.Channels":
            channels=value
        if command=="Main.Audio.CODEC":
            codec=value
        if command=="Main.ListeningMode":
            if value != mode:
#                display = True
                mode=value
        if command=="Main.Audio.Rate":
            rate=value

def isNotBlank (myString):
    if myString and myString.strip():
        #myString is not None AND myString is not empty or blank
        return True
    #myString is None OR myString is empty or blank
    return False

def setHDR (HDR):
    retries=15
    while retries >0:
        retry = 0
        retries = retries -1
        try:
            with JVCCommand() as jvc:
                if HDR == "0":
                    print ("JVC Set SDR")
                    user_mode = jvc.set(Command.PictureMode,PictureMode.User1)
                else:
                    print ("JVC Set HDR")
                    user_mode = jvc.set(Command.PictureMode,PictureMode.User2)
#                               jvc.close()
        except Exception as E:
            print ("JVC exception:",E," retries remaining:",retries)
            retry = 1
        if retry == 0:
            retries = 0
        time.sleep (1)

ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',9600,timeout=0.1 )  # open serial port
#set OSD colours
#osdStr='ZY4180000000\r\n'
#ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
#osdStr='ZY4181FFFFFF\r\n'
#ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
#osdStr='ZY4182000004\r\n'
#ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))

_thread.start_new_thread (checkNAD,())


prevHDR = ""

while True:
    time.sleep(0.1)
    line = None
    line = ser.readline()
    if len(line)!=0:
        line = str (line)
        print ("Serial line: " + line)
    command = ""
    arguments = ""
    foundcmd = False
    endcmd = False
    for char in line:
        if endcmd:
            arguments = arguments + char
        if foundcmd and not endcmd:
            if char not in ',':
                command = command + char
            else:
                endcmd = True
        if not foundcmd:
            if char in '!':
                foundcmd = True
#       print ("Lumagen command: " + command)
#       print "Lumagen arguments: " + arguments
    if command == "I22":
        #set OSD colours
#        osdStr='ZY4180000000\n'
#        ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
#        osdStr='ZY4181FFFFFF\n'
#        ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
#        osdStr='ZY4182000004\n'
#        ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
#               print ("found v2 status report")
#        osdStr='ZY520A\n'
#        ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))
        osdStr='ZQO01\n'
        ser.write(bytes(osdStr,'ascii'))

        aspect = ""
        HDR = ""
        argnum = 7
        currentarg = 1
        argument = ""
        for char in arguments:
            if char not in ',' and currentarg == argnum:
                argument = argument + char
            if char in ',':
                currentarg = currentarg + 1
        aspect = argument
        argnum = 17
        currentarg = 1
        argument = ""
        for char in arguments:
            if char not in ',' and currentarg == argnum:
                argument = argument + char
            if char in ',':
                currentarg = currentarg + 1
        HDR = argument
        currentDT = datetime.datetime.now()
        printDT = (currentDT.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S"))
        print (printDT + " Aspect: " + aspect + " HDR: " + HDR)

        if screencommands.get (aspect):
            url = "http://" + rakocommand + screencommands.get (aspect)
#               print ("URL to get: " + url)
            try:
                with urllib.request.urlopen (url) as response:
                    contents = response.read()
            except:
                print ("Error accessing screen controller")

        if HDR != prevHDR:
            prevHDR = HDR
#                       setHDR (HDR)
            _thread.start_new_thread (setHDR,(HDR,))
#                       time.sleep (15)

    time.sleep (0.1)
    if display == True:
        display = False
        if mute == "On":
            ostring = "[MUTE]"
        else:
            ostring = volume
        ostring = ostring + " " + codec
        if channels != "Object":
            ostring = ostring + "(" + channels + ")"
        ostring = ostring.center (30)
        if mode != "None":
            ostring = ostring + mode.center(30) + "\n"
        else:
            ostring = ostring + "\n"
        ostring = "ZT1" + ostring
        ser.write(bytes(ostring,'ascii'))


----------



## Surge2018

187crew003 said:


> What would be better image quality?
> 
> 4k streamed or 1080p upscaled with the lumagen?
> 
> I’m watching avengers age of ultron on Apple TV 4K but own the 1080 disc. Which would yield the better pic.


Probably 4K streamed. Just ensure your ATV is set to 4K SDR, not 4K HDR. You will still see HDR content in HDR.


----------



## Surge2018

giomania said:


> Thanks for the information, Jim. I am definitely willing to try using SDR2020 for both SDR and HDR on my JVC RS540. The only question I had about your recommendation is the option of changing SDR gamma from 2.4 to 2.6 if I find the image too bright.
> 
> I think changing the gamma would require the use of another user mode in the display, unless this can be somehow be accomplished in the Radiance Pro?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Mark


Just change the Gamma on your projector. That’s what I did. 
Gamma is always fine tuned by eye, as it depends on your screen, room darkness, etc. 2.4 is a suggestion. You may find that 2.2 or 2.6 work better in your room.


----------



## SJHT

bobof said:


> If you leave autoaspect fully engaged then yes, you do get aspect changes mid film (after all, that's what auto aspect is supposed to do!), and they don't work great mid-movie as they're usually slightly delayed vs the content (due to the Lumagen making sure the AR really changed). So you'd want to avoid them.
> 
> For those titles, you just have sticky enabled in your aspect settings (which you should have) and override it to 2.4:1 once the movie starts if you have a CIH screen, or your choice of 2.4:1 or 16:9 if you have a 16:9 / or CIW electric top / bottom mask screen.


What would be the setup for 16:9 screens that are using top masking? In my case, when I have a 2.4 movie, the movie image lowers to the bottom (using the 2.35 button - setup using tech tip 16) and the top masking drops. How could I watch WW84 just as a 2.4 movie as most of it is that way? Thanks. SJ


----------



## 187crew003

Surge2018 said:


> Probably 4K streamed. Just ensure your ATV is set to 4K SDR, not 4K HDR. You will still see HDR content in HDR.


It is and that was my guess as well. Not to mention the addition of atmos. Thanks for the response


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> What would be the setup for 16:9 screens that are using top masking? In my case, when I have a 2.4 movie, the movie image lowers to the bottom (using the 2.35 button - setup using tech tip 16) and the top masking drops. How could I watch WW84 just as a 2.4 movie as most of it is that way? Thanks. SJ


Same as you do at the moment I think? Just have sticky enabled, start the movie, and press 235. It won't detect a new ratio until something "significant" happens (like input change, refresh rate change, etc).

If you've only shifted the image though in your setup then you may get the top of the image spilling during ratio changes. In that case you should have masking applied in the Lumagen menus to mask the excess for that ratio. You should generally have the Lumagen masking configured anyway for each aspect, but it's particularly important to avoid overspill if you're merging 2.35 and 2.4, for example.


----------



## dlinsley

bobof said:


> Same as you do at the moment I think? Just have sticky enabled, start the movie, and press 235. It won't detect a new ratio until something "significant" happens (like input change, refresh rate change, etc).


Do you have your script set sticky mode when it sees 2.35/2.40 aspect being reported?


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> Do you have your script set sticky mode when it sees 2.35/2.40 aspect being reported?


No I don't. I don't think it would generally be a good idea as it would mean AA would be deactivated from that point onwards unless a major change happened (change of refresh / colourspace / input etc). I have my AppleTV and most other player set to output SDR 23.976p for menus, so for most content I watch it doesn't do a rate change at the beginning or end of the content. 

I guess it might work OK if you did this where you had the AppleTV UI set to 59.94p as you'd likely get reset at the end and / or beginning of most titles, but these days to be honest content particularly on streaming seems likely to be one of the other ratio like 1.85, 2.0, 2.2, etc...


----------



## aguy

Wondering if anyone has experience using the then audio sharc to extract audio from ARC port on their tv ? 

It’s designed to have its output plug into one of the hdmi inputs on your processor. For me that is a trinnov. But I’m also thinking that I could plug it into my lumagen and have the audio routed through the lumagen as I have all my sources switched through the lumagen. Anyone think of pluses or minuses for the output of the sharc to go directly to the trinnov or route it through the lumagen first ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mskreis

jrp said:


> If you want a Gamma of 2.6, if you have Gamma = 2.4 in the projector you can set the CMS1->Gamma_factor to 2.6/2.4 = 1.08. Do this before you calibrate the 1D LUT and check your Black Level after this change.
> 
> Alternately you can target a Gamma of 2.6 in the 1D LUT calibration.


Since the goal is to use Gamma 2.4 for HDR2020 and 2.6 for SDR2020 in our plan, shouldn’t I set CMS0->Gamma_factor to 2.6/2.4 = 1.08?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

bobof said:


> Same as you do at the moment I think? Just have sticky enabled, start the movie, and press 235. It won't detect a new ratio until something "significant" happens (like input change, refresh rate change, etc).
> 
> If you've only shifted the image though in your setup then you may get the top of the image spilling during ratio changes. In that case you should have masking applied in the Lumagen menus to mask the excess for that ratio. You should generally have the Lumagen masking configured anyway for each aspect, but it's particularly important to avoid overspill if you're merging 2.35 and 2.4, for example.


So, the two choices would be to have my masking move and reconfigure between the 2 different aspect ratios, or just use 2.4 and mask the spillage via the Lumagen? The 1st option might not be bad on films like WW84 as it starts out in IMAX and then settles into 2.4. If it did it multiple times, would be annoying. SJ


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> So, the two choices would be to have my masking move and reconfigure between the 2 different aspect ratios, or just use 2.4 and mask the spillage via the Lumagen? The 1st option might not be bad on films like WW84 as it starts out in IMAX and then settles into 2.4. If it did it multiple times, would be annoying. SJ


Well, as you have a 16:9 screen your 3rd option is of course to watch it "open-matte" at 16:9. That's what I do in my own theatre with ratio shifting titles, watch them as intended.
It's only folk with fixed CIH screens that are forced to watch these titles at 2.4:1 with cropped top and bottom in the IMAX sections.

AA plus electromechanical masks definitely doesn't act quick enough in my opinion for use in a title, so to be honest I discount the first option you mention straight away if you care at all about avoiding distraction during the movie.

Edit: there is a 4th way if you really want to upset everyone, and that's to watch the 16:9 sections as 16:9 and zoom the 2.4 sections to fill 16:9 - yuk. However the detection isn't really fast enough to do that you you'll see a significant step as you switch into 2.4 being zoomed. So again for me it would be discounted.


----------



## Surge2018

What is the relationship between Gamma and DynPad? To me, it seems they accomplish the same goal and they are positively correlated. In other words, decreasing Gamma is the same as decreasing DynPad. Is that correct?


----------



## oldvinyl

giomania said:


> As a public service, I thought it best to have all these posts in one place for members searching for issues with the ATV 4K automatically switching resolution from 4KSDR to 4KHDR, as I think I stopped this behavior by changing HDR from "Use global" to "Yes" in my system. See below for details.
> 
> Also, the suggestion to use a free memory to force the ATV 4K to use 1080p is brilliant.
> 
> For video EDID: Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Video EDID
> 
> I am using the following Src Video Formats options:
> 
> Interlaced: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> Rec2020: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> *HDR: Yes * The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> Video Limit: Max(18 Ghz) The options are: Max(18 Ghz), 1080p and 9 Ghz, but perhaps only if you have an 18 Ghz input card.
> HLG: Use global The options are: Use global, Auto, No, Yes
> 
> Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Audio EDID
> This is set to "Common"
> 
> It would seem that with the settings above have eliminated the HDMI resync that was causing the automatic switch in the ATV 4K from 4KSDR to 4KHDR.
> 
> Mark



Thanks for collecting all this info. 

In the process of trying to the my AppleTV (4K) working again, I wound up switching it to HDMI1 on my Lumagen (my RadiancePro has 2 inputs and 2 outputs). Wouldn't you know? By connecting the AppleTV on HDMI1 and moving the Oppo-205 to HDMI2, the gremlins went away. 

The AppleTV now retains its settings. I can switch between the 2 devices - and it syncs to the selected one. If I am watching a disc, then switch to AppleTV and turn off Oppo while streaming - it no longer disrupts the HDMI (in original configuration this would cause a several second drop of audio and video).


----------



## FenceMan

Another 3.50 question. I have Lumagen doing tonemapping set to output SDR2020 w/ HDR flag. I set JVC HDR10 auto mode to picture mode HDR10 (which I auto calibrated with JVC program) and color profile BT.2020 (normal). This should all be correct?

What is confusing me is tone mapping says HDR10(Auto), is this correct for Lumagen doing the tone map?

Edit now I see I need the JVC on SDR? Did 3.50 break the ability to automatically change to SDR2020 with the HDR flag?

Edit now maybe I got it? Set HDR10 for "Last Setting" and leave SD color profile to auto and it will do 709 for 1080p and 2020 for 4k??


----------



## SJHT

bobof said:


> Well, as you have a 16:9 screen your 3rd option is of course to watch it "open-matte" at 16:9. That's what I do in my own theatre with ratio shifting titles, watch them as intended.
> It's only folk with fixed CIH screens that are forced to watch these titles at 2.4:1 with cropped top and bottom in the IMAX sections.
> 
> AA plus electromechanical masks definitely doesn't act quick enough in my opinion for use in a title, so to be honest I discount the first option you mention straight away if you care at all about avoiding distraction during the movie.
> 
> Edit: there is a 4th way if you really want to upset everyone, and that's to watch the 16:9 sections as 16:9 and zoom the 2.4 sections to fill 16:9 - yuk. However the detection isn't really fast enough to do that you you'll see a significant step as you switch into 2.4 being zoomed. So again for me it would be discounted.


The first part of this movie is cool in IMAX levels which really can only be viewed with a 16;9 screen. Maybe different for this movie as it starts in IMAX and then settles to 2.4 for the rest. My system with automation can handle. Start the movie with the opening scenes and then masking drops, etc. for the rest. First world issues. Lol. When K releases it likely will be in a single aspect ratio. Happy New Year!


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> The first part of this movie is cool in IMAX levels which really can only be viewed with a 16;9 screen. Maybe different for this movie as it starts in IMAX and then settles to 2.4 for the rest. My system with automation can handle. Start the movie with the opening scenes and then masking drops, etc. for the rest. First world issues. Lol. When K releases it likely will be in a single aspect ratio. Happy New Year!


Hmmm... do you think the kaleidescape version will be anything other than the crop you would achieve yourself in the Lumagen? I wonder if any of the IMAX scenes will be anything other than the centre portions.
Anyway as you say 1st world!


----------



## MDesigns

Surge2018 said:


> What is the relationship between Gamma and DynPad? To me, it seems they accomplish the same goal and they are positively correlated. In other words, decreasing Gamma is the same as decreasing DynPad. Is that correct?


Not really expert on Lumagen, but you should use the same Gamma setting in Lumagen and in the projector to get expected results from the tonemapping. For example if you chose 2.4(default) in Lumagen, then choose 2.4 in the projector. Then use the other settings like DynPad to adjust the image.


----------



## Ironman1718

How difficult is it to control the lumagen with Control4?


----------



## SSnarski

When you find the Control 4 rep that can do it quickly and the first time send him my way


This was from bjorg on the forum as a conversation to me - i am looking to get Lumagen working properly with C4 as well

I got all the functions working using the two drivers provided by Lumagen. It took a couple of tries, because it was not obvious that the second driver was needed.

The one thing that took a while to work--and only works for some Receivers--was the ability to open the Radiance Pro menu without switching sources. C4 doesn't make that easy!

In the end, we had to _pretend_ to switch sources, by going from HDMI7 to HDMI2 on the Trinnov, and configuring the Trinnov to use the HDMI7 port when the HDMI2 source is used. In short, C4 had to believe it was switching sources, but the receiver (Trinnov) was configured to use the same port for both sources.


----------



## Surge2018

MDesigns said:


> Not really expert on Lumagen, but you should use the same Gamma setting in Lumagen and in the projector to get expected results from the tonemapping. For example if you chose 2.4(default) in Lumagen, then choose 2.4 in the projector. Then use the other settings like DynPad to adjust the image.


Right, makes sense, thanks. However, as far as I know, the Lumagen only has a Gamma adjustment factor, which defaults at 1. This is a ratio multiplier. So you can only adjust this to make coarse adjustments to Gamma. You cannot set “Gamma to 2.4” for example, in the Lumagen. I think it’s based on the calibration.
Also, the display may not be accurate. So setting Gamma 2.4 on a projector may in fact be 2.2 or 2.6 in reality. It’s always best to fine-tune Gamma by eye, in your system.
In my case, 2.4 looks too washed out vs 2.6.


----------



## ccool96

Applemike68 said:


> How difficult is it to control the lumagen with Control4?


It’s super easy. I’m not sure why so many people have issues. 

I am the one who recommended Bjorg, tricking C4 into thinking it’s switching inputs on the Trinnov, to be able to have full “remote control” to the Lumagen OSD.

That can be the only tricky part, but generally that’s a non-issue for most C4 users, as once the Lumagen is properly setup, all you need to do is power on/off and switch inputs. 

I now use a custom C4 2-way driver that was created which allows C4 to automatically adjust my 4way masking screen, change laser power levels, etc. based on the content that’s playing. I can PM anyone interested in the 2-way driver a contact to the driver creator, as he sells licenses for this driver. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ccool96

Deleted


----------



## SSnarski

ccool96 said:


> It’s super easy. I’m not sure why so many people have issues.
> 
> I am the one who recommended Bjorg, tricking C4 into thinking it’s switching inputs on the Trinnov, to be able to have full “remote control” to the Lumagen OSD.
> 
> That can be the only tricky part, but generally that’s a non-issue for most C4 users, as once the Lumagen is properly setup, all you need to do is power on/off and switch inputs.
> 
> I now use a custom C4 2-way driver that was created which allows C4 to automatically adjust my 4way masking screen, change laser power levels, etc. based on the content that’s playing. I can PM anyone interested in the 2-way driver a contact to the driver creator, as he sells licenses for this driver.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



I want to be able to pull up the menu for the lumagen using the C4 system - i am able to turn the lumagen on and off - i want to be able to control left and right arrows so i can make adjustments to the lumagen re: dtm - sharpening,etc. right now the way the c4 guy left it, this does not work - the way it works now it pulls up 5 different lumagen controls that are of no use to me.
you can pm me and maybe by local C4 guy can contact your creator to see if this will work for me.
Many thanks!


----------



## ccool96

SSnarski said:


> I want to be able to pull up the menu for the lumagen using the C4 system - i am able to turn the lumagen on and off - i want to be able to control left and right arrows so i can make adjustments to the lumagen re: dtm - sharpening,etc. right now the way the c4 guy left it, this does not work - the way it works now it pulls up 5 different lumagen controls that are of no use to me.
> you can pm me and maybe by local C4 guy can contact your creator to see if this will work for me.
> Many thanks!


There are ways to address this. My C4 remote operates the full OSD menu of the Lumagen, Identical in operation to the Lumagen remote. 

If you want to PM me your email, I can send some instruction to you to forward to your c4 dealer. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bjorg

ccool96 said:


> It’s super easy. I’m not sure why so many people have issues.
> 
> I am the one who recommended Bjorg, tricking C4 into thinking it’s switching inputs on the Trinnov, to be able to have full “remote control” to the Lumagen OSD.
> 
> That can be the only tricky part, but generally that’s a non-issue for most C4 users, as once the Lumagen is properly setup, all you need to do is power on/off and switch inputs.
> 
> I now use a custom C4 2-way driver that was created which allows C4 to automatically adjust my 4way masking screen, change laser power levels, etc. based on the content that’s playing. I can PM anyone interested in the 2-way driver a contact to the driver creator, as he sells licenses for this driver.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I think it also comes down to the abilities of the integrator. Also, I don't yet have a trick to bring up the Lumagen menu on my Denon receiver for my second RadiancePro.


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> I think it also comes down to the abilities of the integrator. Also, I don't yet have a trick to bring up the Lumagen menu on my Denon receiver for my second RadiancePro.


Very true on the integrator. 

Which Lumagen driver are you using? The 1-way RS232 driver that’s on Lumagen’s website?

If so I believe it still has like 18 inputs, because it use to work with the XD series that had component and composite inputs as well. 

If so, you should be able to bind the Lumagen DVD driver to any input past # 8, since that’s all the Pro has. 

The Pro should ignore that input change (since it only sees input 1-8), so the video source will stay they same, while at the same time tricking the c4 system into believing it was changed to the Lumagen “DVD” driver. Then the remote should operate the Lumagen. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bjorg

ccool96 said:


> Very true on the integrator.
> 
> Which Lumagen driver are you using? The 1-way RS232 driver that’s on Lumagen’s website?
> 
> If so I believe it still has like 18 inputs, because it use to work with the XD series that had component and composite inputs as well.
> 
> If so, you should be able to bind the Lumagen DVD driver to any input past # 8, since that’s all the Pro has.
> 
> The Pro should ignore that input change (since it only sees input 1-8), so the video source will stay they same, while at the same time tricking the c4 system into believing it was changed to the Lumagen “DVD” driver. Then the remote should operate the Lumagen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Wow. That's a lot simpler than the Trinnov trick!


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> Wow. That's a lot simpler than the Trinnov trick!


Yes! I originally forgot about that way because I am using a custom made 2way driver that only has 8 inputs. 

I am going to get it modified to add a 9th hdmi Input just to use as a “virtual input” for the Lumagen “dvd”
Driver to be linked to. 

So for now I use the Trinnov trick, but it’s not needed with the 1-way driver since it already has 18 inputs available for binding. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MDesigns

Surge2018 said:


> Also, the display may not be accurate. So setting Gamma 2.4 on a projector may in fact be 2.2 or 2.6 in reality. It’s always best to fine-tune Gamma by eye, in your system.
> In my case, 2.4 looks too washed out vs 2.6.


Sorry, I was assuming that when paying Lumagen class money most would get everything calibrated. When measured and calibrated one knows how the display performs and can choose correct settings. I wouldn't say it's always best to fine tune the gamma by eye in an AV Science forum.


----------



## bobof

It constantly surprises me how many folk have these units but don't use them to get a calibration done. The calibration to a given gamma preference should just happen during a proper calibration (in the 21pt 1DLUT). Controls like the gamma adjustment should only be used once you have a calibrated baseline. JVCs are prime examples, with gamma that is all over the place throughout the luminance range until corrected. Single value correction is doomed to fail on them.


----------



## Surge2018

What is the experts’ consensus on frame rate output? Most projectors display at 60Hz if I’m not mistaken. Therefore, is it best to have the Radiance output everything to 60Hz?


----------



## bjorg

Surge2018 said:


> What is the experts’ consensus on frame rate output? Most projectors display at 60Hz if I’m not mistaken. Therefore, is it best to have the Radiance output everything to 60Hz?


I believe the general consensus is to match the source frame rate to avoid dropped or duplicated frames.


----------



## Surge2018

MDesigns said:


> Sorry, I was assuming that when paying Lumagen class money most would get everything calibrated. When measured and calibrated one knows how the display performs and can choose correct settings. I wouldn't say it's always best to fine tune the gamma by eye in an AV Science forum.


Yes, I had my system calibrated by an ISF Certified tech, who also is a journalist and writes for Secrets of Home Theater, among other publications. He doesn’t know the Lumagen super-well, but he knows his stuff.

Fine tuning by eye is exactly what is recommended. See link below. I realize it may make some/most people here uncomfortable. Even a pro calibrator will be fine tuning to his “flavour”. This is why DynPad is also a DIY fine-tune adjustment. It is not one size fits all. Furthermore, it’s going to vary with content: on BR2049, DynPad 5 is perfect on my system. But on Netflix’s Rebecca, it’s too dark at DynPad 5, so I used 4.

Anyway, back to Gamma:


> Gamma 2.2 vs Gamma 2.4 - How, Why and When (in DaVinci Resolve)?
> 
> 
> When you start delving into the finer points of color correction you'll eventually learn about Gamma 2.2 vs Gamma 2.4. Learn how to choose between them.
> 
> 
> 
> mixinglight.com


“In the modern era of flat-panel TVs, it's ideally used to tailor image quality to room lighting.

Gamma 2.4 – Many professional post-production facilities resisted gamma 2.35 and opted for gamma 2.4 – because they could match their LCDs and plasma displays to their CRTs more easily if they used gamma 2.4. This trend became so strong that the BBC now recommends gamma 2.4. And this is the current standard if you’re mastering for broadcast.
Gamma 2.6 – This is the gamma setting is used for ‘blacked out’ viewing conditions, typical of a movie theater. Gamma 2.2 and gamma 2.4 generally look too flat and dim in black box conditions. Hence, for DCI delivery to cinema a Gamma 2.6 is specified.”


----------



## fatherom

Surge2018 said:


> Most projectors display at 60Hz if I’m not mistaken.


Why do you think this? My projector displays all sorts of frame rates.


----------



## MOberhardt

Surge2018 said:


> What is the experts’ consensus on frame rate output? Most projectors display at 60Hz if I’m not mistaken. Therefore, is it best to have the Radiance output everything to 60Hz?


Crikeys, no way. if you are into home cinema, nearly every scripted movie and television show is 24p. Blu rays and UHD are 24p, with the exception of a few UHDs (eg the Ang Lee ones) and blu rays (eg BBC UK ones that are 50i). I barely watch anything that isn't 24p

So if you watch native 24p material at 60p (and this includes a lot of streaming devices), it gets utterly mangled with framerates, and in my opinion is an abomination. The lumagen and the projector should match source.


----------



## MDesigns

Surge2018 said:


> Yes, I had my system calibrated by an ISF Certified tech, who also is a journalist and writes for Secrets of Home Theater, among other publications. He doesn’t know the Lumagen super-well, but he knows his stuff.
> 
> Fine tuning by eye is exactly what is recommended. See link below. I realize it may make some/most people here uncomfortable. Even a pro calibrator will be fine tuning to his “flavour”. This is why DynPad is also a DIY fine-tune adjustment. It is not one size fits all. Furthermore, it’s going to vary with content: on BR2049, DynPad 5 is perfect on my system. But on Netflix’s Rebecca, it’s too dark at DynPad 5, so I used 4.


Lumagen should adjust dynamically and adapt to movies, so hopefully you can find settings that work with all movies.


Surge2018 said:


> Anyway, back to Gamma:
> 
> “In the modern era of flat-panel TVs, it's ideally used to tailor image quality to room lighting.
> 
> Gamma 2.4 – Many professional post-production facilities resisted gamma 2.35 and opted for gamma 2.4 – because they could match their LCDs and plasma displays to their CRTs more easily if they used gamma 2.4. This trend became so strong that the BBC now recommends gamma 2.4. And this is the current standard if you’re mastering for broadcast.
> Gamma 2.6 – This is the gamma setting is used for ‘blacked out’ viewing conditions, typical of a movie theater. Gamma 2.2 and gamma 2.4 generally look too flat and dim in black box conditions. Hence, for DCI delivery to cinema a Gamma 2.6 is specified.”


IMO this has nothing to do with choosing gamma in projector for Lumagen tonemapped HDR content. All I said is to use the same gamma in Lumagen and projector to get expected results and not make a mismatch. That way I would assume the Lumagen settings and dynamic magic works the best way.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Hi All,
The leading TV provider here in the UK (Sky) has started supporting HDR using HLG, the lumagen is showing the HLG input being mapped to SDR output but the dynamic HDR isn’t supported it seems. I wondered if anyone else has HLG sources and what is the best approach for them.

Thanks
Gary


----------



## garyolearysteele

garyolearysteele said:


> Hi All,
> The leading TV provider here in the UK (Sky) has started supporting HDR using HLG, the lumagen is showing the HLG input being mapped to SDR output but the dynamic HDR isn’t supported it seems. I wondered if anyone else has HLG sources and what is the best approach for them.
> 
> Thanks
> Gary


On closer inspection it may actually be supported, changing Max Light and Dynpad didn’t seem to be making any difference. Increasing Max light up to a really high value eventually made a difference so I guess it’s doing something, the image is very dull so assumed DTM wasnt being applied.


----------



## Ironman1718

ccool96 said:


> There are ways to address this. My C4 remote operates the full OSD menu of the Lumagen, Identical in operation to the Lumagen remote.
> 
> If you want to PM me your email, I can send some instruction to you to forward to your c4 dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


All, thanks for the comments on C4 and radiance pro. My guy could not get it to work. Its my fault for not asking first, if he knew anything about the lumagen, which he did not. He spent 4 hours and now i have to use two remotes, one to turn they system on (c4) the other to switch inputs.


----------



## SSnarski

I was in the same boat with C4 - they (C4 installers) act like they can do everything until they get there and realize it is over their head, they try to go to lumagen website and load drivers realizing they can't figure it out, spend many hours trying everything with limited use when they get done - i had to disconnect my pre-pro as well because C4 was allowing certain volume parameters to be surpassed from the limitations the calibrator had set up in the system - disconnected it so i could not be tempted to blow up speakers!


----------



## Ash Sharma

Hobbit An Expected Journey Extended playing from Kaleidescape on my Sony VW5000 with Radiance Latest Firmware on a 14 Foot Wide ST 100 Screen was spectacular.
A lot of the movie is dark and in caves etc - with Lumagen DTM Magic the picture was 3 dimensional and every detail visible in the darkest of scenes..
Good work Jim and Team for giving us such a great movie watching experience and Hope to get many more updates in 2021.


----------



## Ironman1718

SSnarski said:


> I was in the same boat with C4 - they (C4 installers) act like they can do everything until they get there and realize it is over their head, they try to go to lumagen website and load drivers realizing they can't figure it out, spend many hours trying everything with limited use when they get done - i had to disconnect my pre-pro as well because C4 was allowing certain volume parameters to be surpassed from the limitations the calibrator had set up in the system - disconnected it so i could not be tempted to blow up speakers!


This is exactly what happen..


----------



## JFR0317

Unfortunately, some C4 programmers/installers are less talented than others. I have two systems with Lumagen Radiance Pros that are controlled by Control4, and they work flawlessly.


----------



## Eric Lloyd

MDesigns said:


> Lumagen should adjust dynamically and adapt to movies, so hopefully you can find settings that work with all movies.
> 
> IMO this has nothing to do with choosing gamma in projector for Lumagen tonemapped HDR content. All I said is to use the same gamma in Lumagen and projector to get expected results and not make a mismatch. That way I would assume the Lumagen settings and dynamic magic works the best way.


I am not sure you need to match the Lumagen to the projector for gamma in typical cases. If you set the gamma in the projector first and then calibrate with your software to that same gamma, you don't need to do anything in the Lumagen for gamma. If for some reason you set the gamma in your projector to 2.4, but calibrate in software to 2.6, then you would need to adjust the gamma in the lumagen. It would still try and match that gamma otherwise, but prob would not look right. 

Let's say you don't do a calibration at all in the Lumagen. Whatever you set the gamma to on your projector is matched to the Lumagen based on setting the appropriate black levels (and white balance to a lesser extent). This is not an ideal situation, but is another example of gamma setting. 

I am basing this on the user manuals - so please correct me anyone if this is not right.


----------



## Hawkmarket

Ash Sharma said:


> Hobbit An Expected Journey Extended playing from Kaleidescape on my Sony VW5000 with Radiance Latest Firmware on a 14 Foot Wide ST 100 Screen was spectacular.
> A lot of the movie is dark and in caves etc - with Lumagen DTM Magic the picture was 3 dimensional and every detail visible in the darkest of scenes..
> Good work Jim and Team for giving us such a great movie watching experience and Hope to get many more updates in 2021.


I've heard the Lumagen is pretty good but count me as a little suspicious that it's capable of helping the lowly Sony VW5000 with a Kaleidescape on a Stewart screen. You can't make chicken salad out of you know what. I guess if you're happy that's all that matters. 

If you get bored throw a few pictures up so we can cry laughing at your picture.......or out of jealousy. It will be one of those two.


----------



## jazzrock

Hawkmarket said:


> I've heard the Lumagen is pretty good but count me as a little suspicious that it's capable of helping the a lowly Sony VW5000 with a Kaleidescape on a Stewart screen. You can't make chicken salad out of you know what. I guess if you're happy that's all that matters.
> 
> If you get bored through a few pictures up so we can cry laughing at your picture.......or out of jealousy. It will be one of those two.


You’re an idiot and of absolutely no value.


----------



## Hawkmarket

jazzrock said:


> You’re an idiot and of absolutely no value.


The reference to crying out of jealousy was my nod to tremendous sarcasm. That's obviously an elite setup any of us would trade for. I was serious about wanting to see pics from it. I know it's a picture of a picture but I'd love to see the setup.


----------



## jazzrock

Hawkmarket said:


> The reference to crying out of jealousy was my nod to tremendous sarcasm. That's obviously an elite setup any of us would trade for. I was serious about wanting to see pics from it. I know it's a picture of a picture but I'd love to see the setup.


Did not recognize your statement as an attempt at sarcastic humor. My dry sense of humor has failed me before, too. I should have asked for clarification before jumping to the incorrect conclusion.


----------



## Hawkmarket

jazzrock said:


> Did not recognize your statement as an attempt at sarcastic humor. My dry sense of humor has failed me before, too. I should have asked for clarification before jumping to the incorrect conclusion.


You might be right about me being an idiot and of no value but it's not because of that post. And in regards to that setup I can't fathom what one more thing you could add to that setup to improve upon the picture. Sounds like home theater nirvana to me. This seems to be a hobby where the itch is never quite scratched but I don't know where you go to improve upon that picture quality.


----------



## MDesigns

Eric Lloyd said:


> Let's say you don't do a calibration at all in the Lumagen. Whatever you set the gamma to on your projector is matched to the Lumagen based on setting the appropriate black levels (and white balance to a lesser extent). This is not an ideal situation, but is another example of gamma setting.
> 
> I am basing this on the user manuals - so please correct me anyone if this is not right.


First, the guy I was responding to was changing gamma in projector after calibration. Which imo shouldn't be done since there are proper settings to adjust in HDR tonemapping.

Second, gamma doesn't or shouldn't affect black or white levels. It's everything between those. So I don't know what you mean above.

But, as I said I'm not a Lumagen expert so might be wrong too.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Hawkmarket said:


> And in regards to that setup I can't fathom what one more thing you could add to that setup to improve upon the picture. Sounds like home theater nirvana to me. This seems to be a hobby where the itch is never quite scratched but I don't know where you go to improve upon that picture quality.


A DCR Lens 
Which I forgot to mention.


----------



## bjorg

Happy New Year everyone!

I finally published my first version of RadiantPi: a web app to run on a RaspeberryPi 4B to control your Lumagen RadiancePro via USB.

It's a very nascent little app, so don't expect too much. For the first release, I figured I'd take down the common issue of setting labels for inputs, custom modes, CMS, and styles. It's open source using .NET 5. If that's your cup of tea, collaborators are welcome!


----------



## Mark Burton

Hawkmarket said:


> The reference to crying out of jealousy was my nod to tremendous sarcasm. That's obviously an elite setup any of us would trade for. I was serious about wanting to see pics from it. I know it's a picture of a picture but I'd love to see the setup.


I thought your joke was pretty obvious! 

Happy new year 😎


----------



## Shepardos

Happy New Year, If anyone wants to sell a used Lumagen Pro in Europe, please contact me via PM


----------



## bobof

Shepardos said:


> Happy New Year, If anyone wants to sell a used Lumagen Pro in Europe, please contact me via PM


Worth getting in touch with the European distributor @Gordon Fraser , I recall he was advertising some b-stock compact case version units on the UK equivalent of this forum...
My unit's not for sale BTW!


----------



## Surge2018

fatherom said:


> Why do you think this? My projector displays all sorts of frame rates.


I thought, but could be wrong, that the SXRD (JVC uses the same principle of liquid crystal on silicon) always display at 60Hz. So for 24Hz content, the projector is adding frames.


----------



## Surge2018

garyolearysteele said:


> On closer inspection it may actually be supported, changing Max Light and Dynpad didn’t seem to be making any difference. Increasing Max light up to a really high value eventually made a difference so I guess it’s doing something, the image is very dull so assumed DTM wasnt being applied.


To set MaxLight, find a bright image and pause it. Lowering MaxL will brighten the image. 
Start with LowRatio at its default (31) and DynPad at 3 (with the latest firmware). Adjust DynPad to taste. Increasing will make most scenes darker; but you’ll have more “range” between dark and light areas of a scene.
Also check Gamma on your display. Start at 2.4, and do the above. You can also experiment with 2.2 or 2.6.
Hope this helps.


----------



## Klaus.S

Wrong


Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Klaus.S said:


> It has probably been named before but can't find it.
> I know that there is a Rtx3080 in the Envy Extreme but can't find GPU info on the Envy Pro.
> Any who can help out here?


Probably the wrong thread...


----------



## MDesigns

Surge2018 said:


> I thought, but could be wrong, that the SXRD (JVC uses the same principle of liquid crystal on silicon) always display at 60Hz. So for 24Hz content, the projector is adding frames.


That is not correct. Both Sony and JVC can display 24hz natively.


----------



## Klaus.S

bobof said:


> Probably the wrong thread...


Ups yes. I have an Lumagen myself and love it. Just need to settle a bet 

Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## tigerhonaker

If your a New member and looking at Video Processors check our my comments on the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

tigerhonaker's Home Theater phase # 1of being... 

Terry


----------



## garyolearysteele

Surge2018 said:


> To set MaxLight, find a bright image and pause it. Lowering MaxL will brighten the image.
> Start with LowRatio at its default (31) and DynPad at 3 (with the latest firmware). Adjust DynPad to taste. Increasing will make most scenes darker; but you’ll have more “range” between dark and light areas of a scene.
> Also check Gamma on your display. Start at 2.4, and do the above. You can also experiment with 2.2 or 2.6.
> Hope this helps.


Thanks for your reply. I had a professional calibration and have the tone mapping set up. Changing the settings for HDR10 material has a clear difference with each click of Max light and also Dynpad, I’ve played with them for hours with different material .. with HLG based HDR however, those settings don’t initially appear to do anything. At first I wondered if DTM was just not supported, but when you change Max light and get to a really high value (I think 1500 or 2000 ish) you see a big jump to a dark image. The info screens are different, e.g there’s no MaxCLL values etc and no screen saying dynamic HDR is enabled as it would normally. Instead it says:

“Source HLG
Using settings for <= 2500”

HLG is designed for live broadcasting HDR and I wonder if the metadata isn’t there since it won’t have been mastered as such (or whatever the term is for the production process). Either way it looks bad on my screen. HLG via Sky TV is new and I only saw it appear as an option this week. I’ve disabled it for now.

Thanks
Gary


----------



## Surge2018

MOberhardt said:


> Crikeys, no way. if you are into home cinema, nearly every scripted movie and television show is 24p. Blu rays and UHD are 24p, with the exception of a few UHDs (eg the Ang Lee ones) and blu rays (eg BBC UK ones that are 50i). I barely watch anything that isn't 24p
> 
> So if you watch native 24p material at 60p (and this includes a lot of streaming devices), it gets utterly mangled with framerates, and in my opinion is an abomination. The lumagen and the projector should match source.


Right, I understand and agree. I meant do we know what a Sony or JVC projector does internally? I believe the panels inside the projectors only operate at one frequency, which is 60Hz. So when you feed it a 24Hz signal, does it convert it to 60, or some other frequency, for display? LCD panels, which is essentially what Sony and JVC use in modern projectors, typically like to operate at one frequency.... I think.


----------



## Surge2018

MDesigns said:


> Lumagen should adjust dynamically and adapt to movies, so hopefully you can find settings that work with all movies.
> 
> IMO this has nothing to do with choosing gamma in projector for Lumagen tonemapped HDR content. All I said is to use the same gamma in Lumagen and projector to get expected results and not make a mismatch. That way I would assume the Lumagen settings and dynamic magic works the best way.


Yes, but if you’ve been following Jim’s and Kris’ and others comments lately, you’ll realize that DynPad is set to taste. It is not ‘one setting’ for all content, it can’t be. Some content is finalized too dark, for example. And your room lighting is going to make a difference as well.


----------



## bjorg

I'm struggling to leverage the auto AR feature, probably because I misunderstand how it works. I'm just using a regular 16:9 TV.

I would like input in AR 2.35/2.40 to appear as if they were natively 2.20 and without any distortion. The outcome would be similar to zooming in with some of the left/right image cropped, as well as the top/bottom of the letterbox. However, when I set my desired output AR to 2.20 in Style1, the image appears vertically stretched. Setting the output AR to 1.78 achieves the desired effect, in so far the image is not stretched, but too much of the sides are lost to my taste.

I tried these settings, but the cause the image to be vertically stretched when watching 2.35 content:

4:3 --> 1.33
LBOX --> 1.78
16:9 --> 1.78
1.85 --> 1.78
2.0 --> 2.0
2.20 --> 2.20
2.35 --> 2.20
2.40 --> 2.20

The desired effect is to zoom in on content with an AR of 2.35/2.40 and give it a perceived 2.20 AR. From all I've read, I think this is possible, but I haven't figured out how.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I'm struggling to leverage the auto AR feature, probably because I misunderstand how it works. I'm just using a regular 16:9 TV.
> 
> I would like input in AR 2.35/2.40 to appear as if they were natively 2.20 and without any distortion. The outcome would be similar to zooming in with some of the left/right image cropped, as well as the top/bottom of the letterbox. However, when I set my desired output AR to 2.20 in Style1, the image appears vertically stretched. Setting the output AR to 1.78 achieves the desired effect, in so far the image is not stretched, but too much of the sides are lost to my taste.
> 
> I tried these settings, but the cause the image to be vertically stretched when watching 2.35 content:
> 
> 4:3 --> 1.33
> LBOX --> 1.78
> 16:9 --> 1.78
> 1.85 --> 1.78
> 2.0 --> 2.0
> 2.20 --> 2.20
> 2.35 --> 2.20
> 2.40 --> 2.20
> 
> The desired effect is to zoom in on content with an AR of 2.35/2.40 and give it a perceived 2.20 AR. From all I've read, I think this is possible, but I haven't figured out how.


I'm not sure it is possible to do properly within the Lumagen menus as they stand and for it to be fully automated. 

It sounds like you've already worked out to enable the "letterbox zoom" function in Auto Aspect menu.

However, when you change the output AR to use individual ARs as you see it adjusts the vertical scaling. This can then be corrected by going up a level, selecting mask / shrink, and shrinking the output from the top and bottom.

However, the output shrink applies to all output ratios in a style; you can't set the shrink to apply only to, for instance, the ratio of 2.20. So what you would find then is that your normal 16:9 view is squashed vertically.

I don't think there is any way (in the Radiance) to switch to a different style based on the detected input aspect, or to have different top / bottom shrinks per output aspect in a given style.

On the assumption there isn't a neater way to do this; the following would be a workaround with something external to the Radiance. 

You could set up a memory that had 2.2 working properly with everything scaled into 2.2 (so 16:9 would either be pillarboxed or NLS), and a memory with everything unscaled. You could select between these manually, but if you were being cute, you could detect the changed input AR over the serial interface and switch memories from the control system.

Probably better would be for the shrink etc settings to be able to be configured for each output aspect, though.


----------



## bjorg

It looks what I want is a zoom to be applied based on AR. Unfortunately, the zoom level is limited to 5% increments, unlike the shrink, which can be tuned very precisely. For now, I'll use memories for zoom levels and apply them as needed manually.

The following table shows the outcome based on zoom level, how big the individual letterbox bars are, as well as how much of the picture is cropped on the each side.









My original intent was to achieve the following behavior automatically.


----------



## MDesigns

Surge2018 said:


> Right, I understand and agree. I meant do we know what a Sony or JVC projector does internally? I believe the panels inside the projectors only operate at one frequency, which is 60Hz. So when you feed it a 24Hz signal, does it convert it to 60, or some other frequency, for display? LCD panels, which is essentially what Sony and JVC use in modern projectors, typically like to operate at one frequency.... I think.


Sony and JVC projectors work natively, internally, you name it, from input to screen with different frequencys. At least the usual 23,976 to 60hz. There is no conversion unless you use motion interpolation.

Some DLP's(like my hitachi probably does) only work at 60hz and convert everything inputted with different hz.


----------



## MDesigns

Surge2018 said:


> Yes, but if you’ve been following Jim’s and Kris’ and others comments lately, you’ll realize that DynPad is set to taste. It is not ‘one setting’ for all content, it can’t be. Some content is finalized too dark, for example. And your room lighting is going to make a difference as well.


Yes, of course if you like to adjust dark movies brighter, or bright movies darker that you have to do manually. No one can predict that automatically. I would just stick with the mastered intent, make life easier and just watch movies 😃


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> It looks what I want is a zoom to be applied based on AR. Unfortunately, the zoom level is limited to 5% increments, unlike the shrink, which can be tuned very precisely. For now, I'll use memories for zoom levels and apply them as needed manually..


Yes, being able to set a finely customisable zoom per AR would also do it, and would probably be easier to understand than having to shrink the image vertically. Unfortunately it doesn't exist as yet as an option in the menu as far as I can see, I don't think there is any way to save zoom or have finer grain control than the 5%.

You could enable the status reports over serial and just set the zoom from your Pi control script as and when the input AR change is detected


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> You could enable the status reports over serial and just set the zoom from your Pi control script as and when the input AR change is detected


That's exactly what I'm going to attempt! 🤓


----------



## Erod

Soon I'll be adding a Lumagen to my home theater.

How does it work with a Harmony remote? I went into my desktop Harmony app to add it to the hub, but there is no listing for a Radiance Pro. Does the Lumagen turn on automatically when it receives a signal? How does this work?


----------



## Surge2018

Anyone watch On the Rocks on Apple TV+? I find it very dark, visually. It's supposed to be in HDR/Dolby Vision, but no amount of tweaking MaxL or DynPad could make it better. ATV+ usually has be far the best A/V in streaming. Not sure why this is different.


----------



## Klaus.S

Erod said:


> Soon I'll be adding a Lumagen to my home theater.
> 
> How does it work with a Harmony remote? I went into my desktop Harmony app to add it to the hub, but there is no listing for a Radiance Pro. Does the Lumagen turn on automatically when it receives a signal? How does this work?


You just searce for Radiance, then choose another model. The remotes can do the same. 



Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

KarlKlammer said:


> I initially connect with 9600 Baud and keep the connection open. That is fast enough for the 'usual' commands. For importing and exporting the CMS, I change the speed to 230k Baud.
> Yes, the Radiance can send unprompted messages, but I haven't activated them (yet).


Did you run into any issues where the unit just hangs after communicating with it? I'm just reading data from the Lumagen to populate the UI and sometimes it works fine, and other times it just stops responding. At that point, I have to unplug the Lumagen, because it stops responding to any commands, including IR.

Here's how I initialize the serial port, just in case:


Code:


new SerialPort {
    PortName = portName, // "/dev/ttyUSB0"
    BaudRate = baudRate, // 9600
    DataBits = 8,
    Parity = Parity.None,
    StopBits = StopBits.One,
    Handshake = Handshake.None,
    ReadTimeout = 100,
    WriteTimeout = 100
}


----------



## KarlKlammer

bjorg said:


> Did you run into any issues where the unit just hangs after communicating with it? I'm just reading data from the Lumagen to populate the UI and sometimes it works fine, and other times it just stops responding. At that point, I have to unplug the Lumagen, because it stops responding to any commands, including IR.
> 
> Here's how I initialize the serial port, just in case:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> new SerialPort {
> PortName = portName, // "/dev/ttyUSB0"
> BaudRate = baudRate, // 9600
> DataBits = 8,
> Parity = Parity.None,
> StopBits = StopBits.One,
> Handshake = Handshake.None,
> ReadTimeout = 100,
> WriteTimeout = 100
> }


I start with read and write timeout set to 5000. The other properties look OK to me.
I only run into a situation where the Radiance stops responding to serial commands, when I forget to send a necessary <cr> for certain commands. But even then, the unit still responds to IR.


----------



## Surge2018

MDesigns said:


> Yes, of course if you like to adjust dark movies brighter, or bright movies darker that you have to do manually. No one can predict that automatically. I would just stick with the mastered intent, make life easier and just watch movies 😃


Right, ~90% of content is fine; but with HDR content there is more variability from title to title. On the Rocks (Apple TV+) is very dark, for example. Mandalorian (Disney+) is also darker than most content. These are probably incorrectly mastered in post-production. I


----------



## Mike Garrett

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is there any specific advantage of getting Lumagen setup done on site while its hooked to AVR and projector or shipping it for remote setup by a professional is equally good?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Only real advantage would be if you were having the display calibrated. Then the calibrator could use the Lumagen.


----------



## Karl Maga

Erod said:


> Soon I'll be adding a Lumagen to my home theater.
> 
> How does it work with a Harmony remote? I went into my desktop Harmony app to add it to the hub, but there is no listing for a Radiance Pro. Does the Lumagen turn on automatically when it receives a signal? How does this work?


I searched for Lumagen when adding the device to my Harmony remote, and it found a device that I selected. This resulted in excellent functionality. 

As for turn on/off, you must send the Radiance Pro the appropriate signal (on or off). This is all readily selectable in the Harmony with the Lumagen device added. I have not had a single issue with the Harmony and Radiance Pro working together.

Good choice on adding the Lumagen, what a boost to image quality! I love what it does for my theater.


----------



## Kris Deering

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is there any specific advantage of getting Lumagen setup done on site while its hooked to AVR and projector or shipping it for remote setup by a professional is equally good?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I do remote setups all the time for clients with great success. Though you shouldn't have to ship the Radiance anywhere to have this done.


----------



## blake

SSnarski said:


> I was in the same boat with C4 - they (C4 installers) act like they can do everything until they get there and realize it is over their head, they try to go to lumagen website and load drivers realizing they can't figure it out, spend many hours trying everything with limited use when they get done - i had to disconnect my pre-pro as well because C4 was allowing certain volume parameters to be surpassed from the limitations the calibrator had set up in the system - disconnected it so i could not be tempted to blow up speakers!


Can’t you just send IR commands to the Lumagen? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

I've got an issue where the lumagen output is randomly blanking for a second or so. I've managed to bring up the projector info page and still seeing a video signal. The lumagen OSD won't show either.

Latest firmware. It only started a week or so ago.


----------



## Klaus.S

MOberhardt said:


> I've got an issue where the lumagen output is randomly blanking for a second or so. I've managed to bring up the projector info page and still seeing a video signal. The lumagen OSD won't show either.
> 
> Latest firmware. It only started a week or so ago.


How is you setup? Lumagen last in the chaine or? 

Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

Klaus.S said:


> How is you setup? Lumagen last in the chaine or?
> 
> Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


Just before the projector


----------



## Klaus.S

MOberhardt said:


> Just before the projector


Ok I am no expert. But I have just had some problems regarding DTM. I saved my settings to my computer, then made a faktory reset. I made a reloading of my settings and all work 100% again. 

There can also be trouble with hdmi cables?


----------



## 187crew003

MOberhardt said:


> I've got an issue where the lumagen output is randomly blanking for a second or so. I've managed to bring up the projector info page and still seeing a video signal. The lumagen OSD won't show either.
> 
> Latest firmware. It only started a week or so ago.


i have the same but on the audio side. and all my hdmi cables are the same. no issues with video just audio drops every now and then


----------



## gdfein

Between my own upgraditis and y’all’s AVS peer-pressure, Im feeling like the Lumagen may need to be my next acquisition. Of the various models, how should I be thinking of this?

HDMI input sources are;
1) DTV DVR Genie (1080p)
2) DTV Client (4K)
3) Control4 Controller (1080p)
4) Kaleidescape Strato (4K)
5) AppleTV (4K)
6) Xbox One (4K)
7) Oppo UDP-203 (4K)

HDMI outputs are;
1) Sony Projector-Theater

My processor is the Trinnov Alt16 (original HDMI board). Since I have five 4K sources I was thinking the model 4444 with 6/4 would be ideal and would thus relegate one of my non4k sources (C4 controller) to being switched at the processor. 

As for outputs from Lumagen, seems from reading I’ve done here that one is dedicated to the video out to the PJ and one would feed audio back to the A16. I presume the others are just extra in case of feeding alternate displays or audio in other locations.

Is expanding to the 18ghz output critical? Seems it’s best approach but not sure how costly the 6/4 with upgrades will get. Just curious how those of you have considered these matters and if I’m thinking of the right things. 

GDFEIN


----------



## Kris Deering

gdfein said:


> Between my own upgraditis and y’all’s AVS peer-pressure, Im feeling like the Lumagen may need to be my next acquisition. Of the various models, how should I be thinking of this?
> 
> HDMI input sources are;
> 1) DTV DVR Genie (1080p)
> 2) DTV Client (4K)
> 3) Control4 Controller (1080p)
> 4) Kaleidescape Strato (4K)
> 5) AppleTV (4K)
> 6) Xbox One (4K)
> 7) Oppo UDP-203 (4K)
> 
> HDMI outputs are;
> 1) Sony Projector-Theater
> 
> My processor is the Trinnov Alt16 (original HDMI board). Since I have five 4K sources I was thinking the model 4444 with 6/4 would be ideal and would thus relegate one of my non4k sources (C4 controller) to being switched at the processor.
> 
> As for outputs from Lumagen, seems from reading I’ve done here that one is dedicated to the video out to the PJ and one would feed audio back to the A16. I presume the others are just extra in case of feeding alternate displays or audio in other locations.
> 
> Is expanding to the 18ghz output critical? Seems it’s best approach but not sure how costly the 6/4 with upgrades will get. Just curious how those of you have considered these matters and if I’m thinking of the right things.
> 
> GDFEIN


Sounds about right for inputs. What Sony is it? 18G would likely be the way to go and use output 1 for audio and output 4 for video. Reach out if I can help.


----------



## MOberhardt

Klaus.S said:


> Ok I am no expert. But I have just had some problems regarding DTM. I saved my settings to my computer, then made a faktory reset. I made a reloading of my settings and all work 100% again.
> 
> There can also be trouble with hdmi cables?


When you say issues, what do you mean? Video drop out?

No not cable related. Tried a different set. It does seem to just be the video. So sound keeps playing, no handshaking triggered, projector still seeing a signal. And hitting menu on the Lumagen doesn't display the menu.

I think it is failing. It first happened Jan 1, a couple of times that day. Last night though it got so bad I had to bypass it. And the problem went away.


----------



## garyolearysteele

187crew003 said:


> i have the same but on the audio side. and all my hdmi cables are the same. no issues with video just audio drops every now and then


How long have you had the issue ? I’ve had a similar problem with random audio drop outs. The current theory is the high edge-rate of lumagen outputs (hence the recommended minimum cable lengths) is not well tolerated with some other devices. In my case I went through a bunch of 3m passive 18GB certified and 2 active cables trying to find a solution. It did seem that switching to a 15ft 18GB Belden FE cable from Blue Jeans Cable -- Quality Cables at Reasonable Prices improved the problem but didn’t solve it. Finally I added a HDFury Dr HDMI 4K device, these are primarily for EDID management, however they also claim to help resolve other handshaking issues. In my case the theory is that it keeps the direct HDMI connection alway from my AVR. So far after 2 weeks I haven’t had a drop out, I’m not declaring victory just yet, It did disappear for a while before, however this is the longest period without issue (20-25 hours viewing).


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> When you say issues, what do you mean? Video drop out?
> 
> No not cable related. Tried a different set. It does seem to just be the video. So sound keeps playing, no handshaking triggered, projector still seeing a signal. And hitting menu on the Lumagen doesn't display the menu.
> 
> I think it is failing. It first happened Jan 1, a couple of times that day. Last night though it got so bad I had to bypass it. And the problem went away.


An occasional drop-out is almost always a cable related issue. Certainly a marginal input on a projector can exacerbate the problem, but since you can change the cable a lot easier than the projector, it comes down to getting a better HDMI cable.

Unfortunately trying with multiple sub-optimal cables is not a test. There are a lot of sub-optimal cables out there.

We recommend the Tributaries UDHV "Vega" fiber for long runs. The RUIPRO (on amazon.com) is a good second choice.

One thing that can help if things are "close to working" is to unplug the HDMI ends half-way, then push in again, and repeat five times for every cable end. I can't tell you how many times this has resolved drop out issues by cleaning the contacts and helping to form the contact surface area between the plug and jack. The last time you plug in, wiggle the plug from side to side some as you press in to make sure the cable is seated properly.


----------



## jrp

Concerning the Radiance Pro output:

The output voltage is right on spec.

The output jitter and electrical noise is among the lowest ever measured by the person who did our testing for us.

However, the output slew rate is near the faster end of the spec. Still in spec but on the fast end. There also appears to be a bit more output EQ than other devices use. These can cause issues with a marginal HDMI input design. Using a longer passive cable can mitigate the edge-rate and EQ issues by attenuating the signal before the input device. We often see changing from a 2 meter to a three or four meter passive HDMI cable can eliminate audio dropouts.

We had an occasional audio drop when using the Strato in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I changed from a 2 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Strato to the Radiance Pro to a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable. Since then no audio dropouts. We have many similar stories of changing the cable from the Pro to the audio processor from 2 meter to 3, or even 6, meters, resolving audio dropouts.

As always, never use a passive HDMI cable less than 2 meters long. Just asking for trouble.


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> An occasional drop-out is almost always a cable related issue. Certainly a marginal input on a projector can exacerbate the problem, but since you can change the cable a lot easier than the projector, it comes down to getting a better HDMI cable.
> 
> Unfortunately trying with multiple sub-optimal cables is not a test. There are a lot of sub-optimal cables out there.
> 
> We recommend the Tributaries UDHV "Vega" fiber for long runs. The RUIPRO (on amazon.com) is a good second choice.
> 
> One thing that can help if things are "close to working" is to unplug the HDMI ends half-way, then push in again, and repeat five times for every cable end. I can't tell you how many times this has resolved drop out issues by cleaning the contacts and helping to form the contact surface area between the plug and jack. The last time you plug in, wiggle the plug from side to side some as you press in to make sure the cable is seated properly.


Thanks. So unlikely anything with the video output card. So possibly contact oxidation of some sort? Once the Lumagen and that 3ft cable was gone, the problem went away. So that only leaves the Lumagen contacts and the short cable.

What do you recommend for a short hop cable Lumagen to projector? Mine is at the rear of the room. Currently a monoprice prem certified 3ft. And once


----------



## Beamis

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Is there any specific advantage of getting Lumagen setup done on site while its hooked to AVR and projector or shipping it for remote setup by a professional is equally good?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I had a remote setup done for the Lumagen and I highly recommend it! This site is awesome and has given me a ton of information about the Lumagen. However, having no experience with the Lumagen, it can be daunting for a noob like me. I did a remote setup that was specific for my projector, devices of Direct tv, Apple TV, blue ray player and PS4. Configuration files for the Lumagen and recommended settings for each device and setup for each input/output was done as well as and recommendations for my HDMI cables. This was so worth it to have everything work flawlessly and know that I indeed had the right settings done for my system. Since I have a Sony 695ES with no DTM, this system has been a game changer for me! I now see what you all on this site have been raving about! Amazing what the Lumagen has done for my system for both HDR and SDR. 

It was so worth it for me to have a pro set it up remotely. Thanks Kris D!


----------



## Surge2018

Hawkmarket said:


> The reference to crying out of jealousy was my nod to tremendous sarcasm. That's obviously an elite setup any of us would trade for. I was serious about wanting to see pics from it. I know it's a picture of a picture but I'd love to see the setup.


With my Sony 995ES, which is the same lens and only differs from the 5000 in being less bright, I can attest that the Lumagen is worth every penny. HDR looks stunning, vs. pretty good with just the Sony. Obviously not a scientific measurement, but your eyes (and ears), are all the count, ultimately. 
I don’t know how you can spent ~$15K+ on a projector and not add another $5K for a Lumagen. It’s a must-have.


----------



## Surge2018

Beamis said:


> I had a remote setup done for the Lumagen and I highly recommend it! This site is awesome and has given me a ton of information about the Lumagen. However, having no experience with the Lumagen, it can be daunting for a noob like me. I did a remote setup that was specific for my projector, devices of Direct tv, Apple TV, blue ray player and PS4. Configuration files for the Lumagen and recommended settings for each device and setup for each input/output was done as well as and recommendations for my HDMI cables. This was so worth it to have everything work flawlessly and know that I indeed had the right settings done for my system. Since I have a Sony 695ES with no DTM, this system has been a game changer for me! I now see what you all on this site have been raving about! Amazing what the Lumagen has done for my system for both HDR and SDR.
> 
> It was so worth it for me to have a pro set it up remotely. Thanks Kris D!


You really need an on-site calibration. Without a colorimeter on site, you’re using the Lumagen to perhaps 10% of its potential. Even for DTM, you need to know your light output and/or calibrate to reference images/scenes.


----------



## Surge2018

[DELETED]


----------



## Surge2018

Kris Deering said:


> I do remote setups all the time for clients with great success. Though you shouldn't have to ship the Radiance anywhere to have this done.


Kris, how do you measure color values remotely? Does the client use their own colorimeter?


----------



## Shepardos

Are there any plans to support DV-to-SDR (similar to the current HDR-SDR solution) conversion, or does this means Lumagen has to pay License to Dolby?


----------



## Surge2018

Shepardos said:


> Are there any plans to support DV-to-SDR (similar to the current HDR-SDR solution) conversion, or does this means Lumagen has to pay License to Dolby?


Can you have content in Dolby Vision only, and not in HDR10? Perhaps this is why some Dolby Vision content is too dark (e.g., On the Rocks, Apple TV+)?


----------



## Beamis

Surge2018 said:


> You really need an on-site calibration. Without a colorimeter on site, you’re using the Lumagen to perhaps 10% of its potential. Even for DTM, you need to know your light output and/or calibrate to reference images/scenes.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, my next step is to have Kris D do an on-site calibration along with adding a Panamorph DCR lens . . .


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> Can you have content in Dolby Vision only, and not in HDR10? Perhaps this is why some Dolby Vision content is too dark (e.g., On the Rocks, Apple TV+)?


All streaming DV is DV only (DV profile 5). It does not have an HDR10 compatibility layer. Devices such as the AppleTV convert it to HDR10 where the display does not support DV.


----------



## garyolearysteele

garyolearysteele said:


> How long have you had the issue ? I’ve had a similar problem with random audio drop outs. The current theory is the high edge-rate of lumagen outputs (hence the recommended minimum cable lengths) is not well tolerated with some other devices. In my case I went through a bunch of 3m passive 18GB certified and 2 active cables trying to find a solution. It did seem that switching to a 15ft 18GB Belden FE cable from Blue Jeans Cable -- Quality Cables at Reasonable Prices improved the problem but didn’t solve it. Finally I added a HDFury Dr HDMI 4K device, these are primarily for EDID management, however they also claim to help resolve other handshaking issues. In my case the theory is that it keeps the direct HDMI connection alway from my AVR. So far after 2 weeks I haven’t had a drop out, I’m not declaring victory just yet, It did disappear for a while before, however this is the longest period without issue (20-25 hours viewing).


scratch that, i knew i’d jinx it. More audio drop outs tonight


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Thanks. So unlikely anything with the video output card. So possibly contact oxidation of some sort? Once the Lumagen and that 3ft cable was gone, the problem went away. So that only leaves the Lumagen contacts and the short cable.
> 
> What do you recommend for a short hop cable Lumagen to projector? Mine is at the rear of the room. Currently a monoprice prem certified 3ft. And once


 3 ft cable all day long here. NEVER use 3 ft cables. I see this SO SO SO SO SO SO SO many times in setups that I visit and it is always the culprit. MINIMUM of 6 ft cable. It doesn't matter how much you paid for the cable or whether the cable worked with something else or any of that. Swap the cable to a good 6ft or longer CERTIFIED cable and I would bet this will go away.


----------



## 187crew003

garyolearysteele said:


> scratch that, i knew i’d jinx it. More audio drop outs tonight


Since I installed the lumagen before thanksgiving it’s happened.
I use 6’ cables that were recommended by Kris. Still happens about once per movie. Only for like a second or two. Slight annoyance 

maybe I’ll try a 3m cable


----------



## MOberhardt

187crew003 said:


> Since I installed the lumagen before thanksgiving it’s happened.
> I use 6’ cables that were recommended by Kris. Still happens about once per movie. Only for like a second or two. Slight annoyance
> 
> maybe I’ll try a 3m cable


What brand cables?


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> What brand cables?


Tributaries work well. The certified premium Monoprice work fine too.


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> Since I installed the lumagen before thanksgiving it’s happened.
> I use 6’ cables that were recommended by Kris. Still happens about once per movie. Only for like a second or two. Slight annoyance
> 
> maybe I’ll try a 3m cable


Is this only on a specific source? What output are you using on the Lumagen? Are there any more sources connected to your NAD processor?


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> Is this only on a specific source? What output are you using on the Lumagen? Are there any more sources connected to your NAD processor?


I’m using the certified monoprice 

it’s with my bluray player (4K discs) I’m using output 1 (audio only 18g) for audio and output 3 for video

only other source is ATV I don’t recall any audio drops from that though

watched 2 movies tonight (both discs) and didn’t get any drops. It seems to be completely random


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

187crew003 said:


> I’m using the certified monoprice
> 
> it’s with my bluray player (4K discs) I’m using output 1 (audio only 18g) for audio and output 3 for video
> 
> only other source is ATV I don’t recall any audio drops from that though
> 
> watched 2 movies tonight (both discs) and didn’t get any drops. It seems to be completely random


Try switching output video to 4 this is always recommended by Lumagen, I run out 1 for audio only and out 4 for video only for last 6 years never had an audio drops. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

187crew003 said:


> I’m using the certified monoprice
> 
> it’s with my bluray player (4K discs) I’m using output 1 (audio only 18g) for audio and output 3 for video
> 
> only other source is ATV I don’t recall any audio drops from that though
> 
> watched 2 movies tonight (both discs) and didn’t get any drops. It seems to be completely random


Try switching output video to 4 this is always recommended by Lumagen, I run out 1 for audio only and out 4 for video only for last 6 years never had an audio drops. 

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> I’m using the certified monoprice
> 
> it’s with my bluray player (4K discs) I’m using output 1 (audio only 18g) for audio and output 3 for video
> 
> only other source is ATV I don’t recall any audio drops from that though
> 
> watched 2 movies tonight (both discs) and didn’t get any drops. It seems to be completely random


You should not be using output 3 for video. Use output 4.


----------



## aguy

How about if I am running a tv and a projector as outputs? 

I have audio to trinnov on output 1, video to projector on output 2. And then audio and video together on output 4 to tv.

I never use the tv and projector simultaneously as the tv pops up in front of the projector screen. 

I have had the occasional 1 second or so audio dropout to the trinnov which others on the trinnov forum have been reporting too. Seems a new firmware may improve it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## woofer

Kris Deering said:


> 3 ft cable all day long here. NEVER use 3 ft cables.


Absolutely !!!

I have for ages run two 5mtr 'KordZ EVS" HDMI cables....one from the Oppo to the VP , VP to the Projector.

A little while ago i decided to purchase some "Mega" expensive Wireworld HDMI "Platinum Starlight 7" cables...due to the VERY high cost of the cable i opted for a 1mtr length to go from the Oppo to the VP and then my usual 5 mtr length to the projector.

I never anticipated the drama ahead. Instead of an improved image i instead had major problems with "Audio Drops" , Sync Problems" Video Dropouts....!!!!!

It was then advised by a few knowledgeable people ( including Kris  ) that the minimum preferred HDMI cable length is 2mtrs..

I bit the bullet and purchased a 5mtr length of the same Wireworld cable......sure enough ALL of my issues disappeared!


----------



## Shepardos

bobof said:


> All streaming DV is DV only (DV profile 5). It does not have an HDR10 compatibility layer. Devices such as the AppleTV convert it to HDR10 where the display does not support DV.


So Lumagen will not accept DV or LLDV from source as of now?


----------



## bobof

Shepardos said:


> So Lumagen will not accept DV or LLDV from source as of now?


It's not a "so" (one thing does not lead to the other). But Lumagen has never supported any form of DV on the Radiance Pro, only HDR10 and HLG HDR input. In terms of "accept", the definition requires more precision...

The Lumagen would "accept" LLDV if it was sent it (at its core it's just HDR10 after all). However, the Lumagen does not generate any EDIDs with the Dolby LLDV specific blocks in them, so the source device will not enable internal decoding of the DV and sending of the LLDV to the Lumagen. The only way you could currently get a player to output LLDV to a Lumagen would be to have an intermediate device generating an EDID with the correct bits to enable LLDV in the player. In addition you might need to take great care to ensure you were sending the right LLDV information in the EDID to the player to match the input expectation of the Lumagen. I've not played with it so don't know what that would be.

The Lumagen does not "accept" standard DV from source, as to do so it would need to have the DV technology embedded in it to perform the decoding of the DV data - which it does not.


----------



## MOberhardt

bobof said:


> It's not a "so" (one thing does not lead to the other). But Lumagen has never supported any form of DV on the Radiance Pro, only HDR10 and HLG HDR input. In terms of "accept", the definition requires more precision...
> 
> The Lumagen would "accept" LLDV if it was sent it (at its core it's just HDR10 after all). However, the Lumagen does not generate any EDIDs with the Dolby LLDV specific blocks in them, so the source device will not enable internal decoding of the DV and sending of the LLDV to the Lumagen. The only way you could currently get a player to output LLDV to a Lumagen would be to have an intermediate device generating an EDID with the correct bits to enable LLDV in the player. In addition you might need to take great care to ensure you were sending the right LLDV information in the EDID to the player to match the input expectation of the Lumagen. I've not played with it so don't know what that would be.
> 
> The Lumagen does not "accept" standard DV from source, as to do so it would need to have the DV technology embedded in it to perform the decoding of the DV data - which it does not.


Yes if you put a HDfury sending and LLDV EDID to the sources, the player would output LLDV. Not sure why you'd want to.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> You should not be using output 3 for video. Use output 4.


Ok why is this? If not had any issues with video? can this cause audio drops?

just trying to understand the ins and outs (no pun intended) of this thing.

why have 4 outputs if you should not be using some for output?


----------



## dgkula

Surge2018 said:


> You really need an on-site calibration. Without a colorimeter on site, you’re using the Lumagen to perhaps 10% of its potential. Even for DTM, you need to know your light output and/or calibrate to reference images/scenes.


Hi - I read this comment and was a bit surprised. I have a JVC RS620 and Lumagen and have never had a calibration done; I use the Lumagen exclusively for DTM, I have heard that a calibration is only "valid" for a short period of time as the brightness of the projector bulb declines over time. Maybe that isnt correct? 

I have used my Datacolor Spyder and HCFR to determine nits for DTM, and to calibrate gamma on my projector.

Would a calibration really make a difference? Also how "durable" is it as the bulb dims over time?

Thanks!
David


----------



## 187crew003

So changed the hdmi to output 4 for video Just got an audio drop 

getting frustrating


----------



## Mark Burton

187crew003 said:


> So changed the hdmi to output 4 for video Just got an audio drop
> 
> getting frustrating


audio drop outs are a PITA and are really difficult to get to the bottom of. I was convinced the lumagen was causing my issue with my trinnov, but then still had audio drops even when I used the audio out on my zap pro, completely ignoring the audio into the lumagen.

The latest firmware from trinnov seems to have solved the issue, but I’m still running audio out from my zap so at least that is one thing less in the chain.

Do you have this option on your 4k Blu Ray player?


----------



## 187crew003

Mark Burton said:


> audio drop outs are a PITA and are really difficult to get to the bottom of. I was convinced the lumagen was causing my issue with my trinnov, but then still had audio drops even when I used the audio out on my zap pro, completely ignoring the audio into the lumagen.
> 
> The latest firmware from trinnov seems to have solved the issue, but I’m still running audio out from my zap so at least that is one thing less in the chain.
> 
> Do you have this option on your 4k Blu Ray player?


i COULD do that but then id have to do that for the ATV 4k which i guess i could. and just have the AVR switch inputs see if that fixes anything...thanks


----------



## tigerhonaker

Guys,

If your "Considering/Thinking" about possibly acquiring the Lumagen Radiance Pro Video-Processor ???

I (Opinion) think you might want to check out it's Performance I just now Posted.

Left click on link below:








tigerhonaker's Home Theater phase # 1of being...


Terry: Do I understand correctly that you are no longer using the SVS "Sound Path" feet (and the sliders) under your subs and the subs are now sitting directly on the floor (using the supplied SVS feet that came on the subs)? You thought the Sound Path feet made the bass less impactful...




www.avsforum.com





Terry


----------



## 187crew003

187crew003 said:


> i COULD do that but then id have to do that for the ATV 4k which i guess i could. and just have the AVR switch inputs see if that fixes anything...thanks


so i did just that, and for over an hour watched content and no drops...will let you all know the results


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> i COULD do that but then id have to do that for the ATV 4k which i guess i could. and just have the AVR switch inputs see if that fixes anything...thanks


I'm confused about what approach you're taking...for your blu-ray player and your ATV 4k.


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> I'm confused about what approach you're taking...for your blu-ray player and your ATV 4k.


Blu-ray goes direct to the avr (audio only hdmi to avr) while the Atv still goes through the lumagen


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> Blu-ray goes direct to the avr (audio only hdmi to avr) while the Atv still goes through the lumagen


I'm doing the same thing. Any source device I have that has a secondary hdmi audio-only out is going direct to my AVR and doesn't go through the Lumagen. Only my Apple TV goes through the lumagen for audio. 

Sure, going this way cures audio drop outs, but it doesn't really solve/address the issue of the audio drop outs in the Lumagen, which is where I'd prefer to route my audio. I just was never able to find a cable that worked for me.


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> I'm doing the same thing. Any source device I have that has a secondary hdmi audio-only out is going direct to my AVR and doesn't go through the Lumagen. Only my Apple TV goes through the lumagen for audio.
> 
> Sure, going this way cures audio drop outs, but it doesn't really solve/address the issue of the audio drop outs in the Lumagen, which is where I'd prefer to route my audio. I just was never able to find a cable that worked for me.


It’s all automated through the harmony one remote. So doesn’t really make a difference to me I guess. Just wish there were no audio drops on the lumagen.


----------



## Karl Maga

187crew003 said:


> It’s all automated through the harmony one remote. So doesn’t really make a difference to me I guess. Just wish there were no audio drops on the lumagen. I think saying it’s a cable issue is a cop
> Out tbh


I must say that your conclusion makes no sense. JRP puts too much sincere effort into helping work through these issues, which frequently are attributable to cables, for you to conclude he’s reaching for a cop out. The evidence doesn’t support your allegation.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Karl Maga said:


> I must say that your conclusion makes no sense. JRP puts too much sincere effort into helping work through these issues, which frequently are attributable to cables, for you to conclude he’s reaching for a cop out. The evidence doesn’t support your allegation.


Yup - JRP replaced like Three Lumagen's for me at his cost and spent a bunch of time resolving my issue only to find out once I replaced my Ruipro 10 Meter Passive with Tributaries Vega ACTIVE 10 Meter cable I have had zero issues.
JRP is too nice...


----------



## 187crew003

Karl Maga said:


> I must say that your conclusion makes no sense. JRP puts too much sincere effort into helping work through these issues, which frequently are attributable to cables, for you to conclude he’s reaching for a cop out. The evidence doesn’t support your allegation.


I am using the exact cables and lengths suggested to be used. What else could it be? My conclusion is sound but possibly a bit too harsh.
I just don’t like the continued “it’s the cables” defense. Why not Fix the product so more cables can be used rather than not fix it and only a few cables work

Wouldn’t that would make more sense. Idk

pleasedon’t take me bashing Jim or the lumagen. I’m in love with the thing (minus the drops) and I know Jim has personally responded to many of my questions. My comment wasn’t directed at him and Kris. It was directed at the Canned response by so many on this thread.

I take back and apologize for my comment. My oh post has been edited


----------



## steelman1991

Karl Maga said:


> I must say that your conclusion makes no sense. JRP puts too much sincere effort into helping work through these issues, which frequently are attributable to cables, for you to conclude he’s reaching for a cop out. The evidence doesn’t support your allegation.


While I have no scientific evidence to back it up, my own experience would suggest otherwise. With the same cables in the same set-up and with sources to the Lumagen, then split audio to processor and video to PJ. I got at least 1 audio drop-out per viewing. Change routing to sources direct to processor and out to Lumagen then PJ and I experienced zero audio drop-outs. I witnessed this with 2 processors, an Emotiva RMC-1 and Marantz 8805. I have found no need to change this since I got my Trinnov Altitude 16 and have had again, zero audio drop-outs in the last 3 weeks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> It’s all automated through the harmony one remote. So doesn’t really make a difference to me I guess.


Well it is different though. Routing the audio through the lumagen vs direct to the avr are different in the sense (potentially) of lip sync, at least in my case. 

I love my lumagen to pieces. In the future I may try some more cable options. But with all the cables I've tried, I still get drop outs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> Well it is different though. Routing the audio through the lumagen vs direct to the avr are different in the sense (potentially) of lip sync, at least in my case.
> 
> I love my lumagen to pieces. In the future I may try some more cable options. But with all the cables I've tried, I still get drop outs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very true. But I could fix that with audio delay in the avr. I found so far no issues with lip sync thank god. Lol


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> Very true. But I could fix that with audio delay in the avr. I found so far no issues with lip sync thank god. Lol


The other issue is not all source devices have dual outs. Fortunately all of mine do, except the Apple TV. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> The other issue is not all source devices have dual outs. Fortunately all of mine do, except the Apple TV.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Correct. But tbh I don’t remember ever having a drop in audio with the atv. I may be switching to the nvidia shield soon as I’m adding a server to run my movies. Not sure if that has dual outs


----------



## bobof

You're much less likely to notice audio dropouts on the AppleTV than almost any other source, as the AppleTV is usually outputting PCM which can just drop a sample and in many cases you'll be hard pressed to hear it; whereas with many compressed audio formats a dropped sample will result in the AVR muting for a period of time in excess of the stream interruption, which becomes very obvious.


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> You're much less likely to notice audio dropouts on the AppleTV than almost any other source, as the AppleTV is usually outputting PCM which can just drop a sample and in many cases you'll be hard pressed to hear it; whereas with many compressed audio formats a dropped sample will result in the AVR muting for a period of time in excess of the stream interruption, which becomes very obvious.


Ooh so they might still be happening?


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Well it is different though. Routing the audio through the lumagen vs direct to the avr are different in the sense (potentially) of lip sync, at least in my case.


I'm pretty certain that we've previously discussed this topic, but if you previously used your Denon X6500H as the switching device and ran a single output (from the Denon) into the RP did you experience ANY issues with audio dropouts or video HDMI handshakes?


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> Ooh so they might still be happening?


I'm not saying for sure as I don't know what exactly is afflicting you, but it is possible. 

There was an (unrelated) issue of HDR metadata updates causing brief audio glitches on the AppleTV, which was fixed with a new HDMI input card microcode. Most assumed this was only affecting Atmos, as Dolby MAT atmos was the only decoded audio format (everything else was PCM), and with Atmos engaged the dropout was very noticeable (like a second or so, depending on AVR). However, if you turned off Atmos and listened VERY carefully to the PCM output you could (just) make out the dropped sample or two in PCM mode too. But it was so subtle you had to know when it would happen, be listening like a hawk, and even then you might miss it if the dropped sample shifts slightly on the timeline and it happens close to zero-crossing point in the audio waveform.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> I'm pretty certain that we've previously discussed this topic, but if you previously used your Denon X6500H as the switching device and ran a single output (from the Denon) into the RP did you experience ANY issues with audio dropouts or video HDMI handshakes?


Yeah, Jim and I tried that over the phone one time and it was a no-go. I had tons of handshake issues going from my source devices, to the Denon, and then a single output into the Lumagen. The video would lock on sometimes, other times it wouldn't unless I turned various devices off and on. The Denon was acting super flaky. If it hadn't, I probably would've stuck with that configuration.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Yeah, Jim and I tried that over the phone one time and it was a no-go. I had tons of handshake issues going from my source devices, to the Denon, and then a single output into the Lumagen. The video would lock on sometimes, other times it wouldn't unless I turned various devices off and on. The Denon was acting super flaky. If it hadn't, I probably would've stuck with that configuration.


I'm truly sorry to read that because, after a trouble free year using my Yamaha RX-A3080 in that configuration, I've put in an order for the Denon X6700H. Since my RP has only 2 inputs and I use 5 video sources, the Denon AVR will have to be sold if it can't consistently perform like the Yamaha as the video sources' switching device. That would be a shame, as I was looking forward to upgrading to a 7.2.6 speaker configuration. Do you have any idea why the Denon/RP interface was so buggy?


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> I'm truly sorry to read that because, after a trouble free year using my Yamaha RX-A3080 in that configuration, I've put in an order for the Denon X6700H. Since my RP has only 2 inputs and I use 5 video sources, the Denon AVR will have to be sold if it can't consistently perform like the Yamaha as the video sources' switching device. That would be a shame, as I was looking forward to upgrading to a 7.2.6 speaker configuration. Do you have any idea why the Denon/RP interface was so buggy?


No idea, and I will fully admit I didn't spend long with that config and try to diagnose what was happening. But without the Denon in the video chain, I get consistently stable video lock and handshakes and switching (frame rate, etc). But with the Denon in the chain, it was immediately apparent that it was introducing a variable into the equation that I didn't (at the time) feel like spending time to figure out. At some point in the future, I may try again.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> No idea, and I will fully admit I didn't spend long with that config and try to diagnose what was happening. But without the Denon in the video chain, I get consistently stable video lock and handshakes and switching (frame rate, etc). But with the Denon in the chain, it was immediately apparent that it was introducing a variable into the equation that I didn't (at the time) feel like spending time to figure out. At some point in the future, I may try again.


Fair enough! Wish me luck, because (other than losing out on Yamaha's venue specific DSPs for music) the X6700H would appear to check all of the necessary boxes.


----------



## Karl Maga

fatherom said:


> No idea, and I will fully admit I didn't spend long with that config and try to diagnose what was happening. But without the Denon in the video chain, I get consistently stable video lock and handshakes and switching (frame rate, etc). But with the Denon in the chain, it was immediately apparent that it was introducing a variable into the equation that I didn't (at the time) feel like spending time to figure out. At some point in the future, I may try again.





docrog said:


> I'm truly sorry to read that because, after a trouble free year using my Yamaha RX-A3080 in that configuration, I've put in an order for the Denon X6700H. Since my RP has only 2 inputs and I use 5 video sources, the Denon AVR will have to be sold if it can't consistently perform like the Yamaha as the video sources' switching device. That would be a shame, as I was looking forward to upgrading to a 7.2.6 speaker configuration. Do you have any idea why the Denon/RP interface was so buggy?


I own, as a temporary place holder while awaiting the Marantz AV8805a, a Marantz SR8015, which I believe is the same HDMI chip as the Denon X6700H, and was just discussing with my dealer the status of known HDMI issues with the latest Denon and Marantz units. His feedback was that D&M are aware of and will be fixing the issues via FW. I did not receive an estimate of when.

I have noticed occasional audio drop outs, but don’t recall what sources. It’s too infrequent. My config is all 6 sources’ AV into RP, audio only from RP to Marantz. Video from RP to JVC NX7. Absolutely no issues with video - just glorious images to enjoy. Kris Deering calibrated my NX7 and RP with DCR lens. The image quality is exquisite.


----------



## Karl Maga

steelman1991 said:


> While I have no scientific evidence to back it up, my own experience would suggest otherwise. With the same cables in the same set-up and with sources to the Lumagen, then split audio to processor and video to PJ. I got at least 1 audio drop-out per viewing. Change routing to sources direct to processor and out to Lumagen then PJ and I experienced zero audio drop-outs. I witnessed this with 2 processors, an Emotiva RMC-1 and Marantz 8805. I have found no need to change this since I got my Trinnov Altitude 16 and have had again, zero audio drop-outs in the last 3 weeks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You totally missed the point of my post. I didn’t reference anything related to what the cause of the problem is. I spoke only of a disparaging characterizing of someone’s suggestions that it could be related to cables.


----------



## steelman1991

Karl Maga said:


> You totally missed the point of my post. I didn’t reference anything related to what the cause of the problem is. I spoke only of a disparaging characterizing of someone’s suggestions that it could be related to cables.


Nope - didn’t miss your point at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

Karl Maga said:


> I own, as a temporary place holder while awaiting the Marantz AV8805a, a Marantz SR8015, which I believe is the same HDMI chip as the Denon X6700H, and was just discussing with my dealer the status of known HDMI issues with the latest Denon and Marantz units. His feedback was that D&M are aware of and will be fixing the issues via FW. I did not receive an estimate of when.
> 
> I have noticed occasional audio drop outs, but don’t recall what sources. It’s too infrequent. My config is all 6 sources’ AV into RP, audio only from RP to Marantz. Video from RP to JVC NX7. Absolutely no issues with video - just glorious images to enjoy. Kris Deering calibrated my NX7 and RP with DCR lens. The image quality is exquisite.


Thanks for providing your perspective. My question is whether you'd made any attempt to place the Marantz between your video sources and the RP and whether that proved problematic? If you haven't previously tried that, would it be exceptionally difficult for you to briefly re-route just one of your video sources initially to the Marantz and have the Marantz connected to the RP via Monitor *2 *(*NOT* monitor 1 which is ARC/eARC)?  I'd truly appreciate it if you could possibly make that brief investigation for me since I'd still have time to cancel my X6700H order if that video chain configuration is buggy. I certainly don't want to put you through *any* hassle if it's at all difficult for you to access the back of your components. I'd rather stay with my rock solid 7.2.4 Yamaha -> RP video chain than wind up with an unacceptably problematic Denon -> RP video chain just to be able to move to 7.2.6.


----------



## 187crew003

watched two movie last nigtht bypassing the RP for audio no dropouts. same cables etc. just no RP in the audio loop

what could be causing the issue in the lumagen? again super fast drops like 1-2 seconds, and it is apparent I am not the only one having this issue


----------



## Clark Burk

Karl Maga said:


> I own, as a temporary place holder while awaiting the Marantz AV8805a, a Marantz SR8015, which I believe is the same HDMI chip as the Denon X6700H, and was just discussing with my dealer the status of known HDMI issues with the latest Denon and Marantz units. His feedback was that D&M are aware of and will be fixing the issues via FW. I did not receive an estimate of when.
> 
> I have noticed occasional audio drop outs, but don’t recall what sources. It’s too infrequent. My config is all 6 sources’ AV into RP, audio only from RP to Marantz. Video from RP to JVC NX7. Absolutely no issues with video - just glorious images to enjoy. Kris Deering calibrated my NX7 and RP with DCR lens. The image quality is exquisite.


I remember reading that some owners of the Denon had some luck with dropouts by switching inputs around. It seemed the farther away the HDMI input was from the output the weaker the signal due to wiring issues. I have no idea if this is true or not but it had to due with longer wire tracers connecting to the HDMI chip. It's worth a try if you already have the Denon.


----------



## Craig Peer

187crew003 said:


> watched two movie last nigtht bypassing the RP for audio no dropouts. same cables etc. just no RP in the audio loop
> 
> what could be causing the issue in the lumagen? again super fast drops like 1-2 seconds, and it is apparent I am not the only one having this issue


I never could figure out the why when it came to audio dropouts. With my X8500H, they were rare, sporadic, and irritating. And oddly enough only seemed to happen with 4K sources. My legacy AT & T U Verse cable box ( 1080p only ) doesn't have a separate HDMI audio out, but has zero audio dropouts anyway. My Oppo 203 and Panasonic UB820 did have audio dropouts. Routing the audio to the Denon and the video to the RP was the only way to eliminate them entirely. And it's worked perfectly now for quite a while.


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> Thanks for providing your perspective. My question is whether you'd made any attempt to place the Marantz between your video sources and the RP and whether that proved problematic? If you haven't previously tried that, would it be exceptionally difficult for you to briefly re-route just one of your video sources initially to the Marantz and have the Marantz connected to the RP via Monitor *2 *(*NOT* monitor 1 which is ARC/eARC)?  I'd truly appreciate it if you could possibly make that brief investigation for me since I'd still have time to cancel my X6700H order if that video chain configuration is buggy. I certainly don't want to put you through *any* hassle if it's at all difficult for you to access the back of your components. I'd rather stay with my rock solid 7.2.4 Yamaha -> RP video chain than wind up with an unacceptably problematic Denon -> RP video chain just to be able to move to 7.2.6.


Will try it tonight. Making the switch is very easy for me as all my gear/cables are readily accessible.


----------



## docrog

I truly appreciate your most considerate offer and am looking forward to reading about your findings. I'd wondered whether or not your previous attempt at that video chain configuration was while solely utilizing monitor 1, as I've found that, even with ARC/eARC disabled, HDMI conflicts have occurred at that output. I'll keep my fingers crossed that, this time, you won't encounter video handshake issues (and the presence of audio dropouts should be *ZERO *since, acting as the switcher, the Denon would be functioning in typical fashion for those who don't employ an external video processor).


----------



## 187crew003

Craig Peer said:


> I never could figure out the why when it came to audio dropouts. With my X8500H, they were rare, sporadic, and irritating. And oddly enough only seemed to happen with 4K sources. My legacy AT & T U Verse cable box ( 1080p only ) doesn't have a separate HDMI audio out, but has zero audio dropouts anyway. My Oppo 203 and Panasonic UB820 did have audio dropouts. Routing the audio to the Denon and the video to the RP was the only way to eliminate them entirely. And it's worked perfectly now for quite a while.


so weird. just watched another 4k movie (total recall) and no audio drops...so that's 3 straight with bypassing the lumagen with no drops. guess we found the solution


----------



## 187crew003

double post


----------



## MOberhardt

187crew003 said:


> so weird. just watched another 4k movie (total recall) and no audio drops...so that's 3 straight with bypassing the lumagen with no drops. guess we found the solution


I wonder if possibly it is related at all to bitrates? Eg Total Recall is only 5.1 MA so I expect the data rate would probably be 1/2 to 2/3 say a TrueHD Atmos track. Are they full 18GHz?

Also, I wonder if like suggested (and seems to have worked with my video blanking issues) seems to be related to a dodgy cable seating. Eg possible oxidation or some sort of residue on contacts? To Jim's suggestion of unplugging and plugging it in several times.


----------



## 187crew003

MOberhardt said:


> I wonder if possibly it is related at all to bitrates? Eg Total Recall is only 5.1 MA so I expect the data rate would probably be 1/2 to 2/3 say a TrueHD Atmos track. Are they full 18GHz?
> 
> Also, I wonder if like suggested (and seems to have worked with my video blanking issues) seems to be related to a dodgy cable seating. Eg possible oxidation or some sort of residue on contacts? To Jim's suggestion of unplugging and plugging it in several times.


ive done the unplug replug x5 many times to try to correct it

and Total Recall is Atmos fyi


----------



## Mark Burton

187crew003 said:


> so weird. just watched another 4k movie (total recall) and no audio drops...so that's 3 straight with bypassing the lumagen with no drops. guess we found the solution


Don’t speak too soon, you don’t want to curse it!!


----------



## Craig Peer

187crew003 said:


> *ive done the unplug replug x5 many times to try to correct it*
> 
> and Total Recall is Atmos fyi


Same here.


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> so weird. just watched another 4k movie (total recall) and no audio drops...so that's 3 straight with bypassing the lumagen with no drops. guess we found the solution


I'm not discounting your success, because I use the the very same config (audio direct from source device to AVR). However, I would expect that there wouldn't be audio drop outs if one is bypassing the Lumagen for audio, since obviously the Lumagen is only dealing with the video. So I wouldn't call that a "solution" or solving the problem. Especially since not every source device has multiple HDMI outputs.

Again, not trashing or slandering anything. I realize this stuff is complicated. But I would definitely rather run everything through the Lumagen. I would definitely like to find a true solution to this issue at some point.


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> I'm not discounting your success, because I use the the very same config (audio direct from source device to AVR). However, I would expect that there wouldn't be audio drop outs if one is bypassing the Lumagen for audio, since obviously the Lumagen is only dealing with the video. So I wouldn't call that a "solution" or solving the problem. Especially since not every source device has multiple HDMI outputs.
> 
> Again, not trashing or slandering anything. I realize this stuff is complicated. But I would definitely rather run everything through the Lumagen. I would definitely like to find a true solution to this issue at some point.


I completely agree. Especially with the cost of the product. Luckily I have a work around as opposed to a fix.


----------



## 187crew003

Double post again.


----------



## 187crew003

Mark Burton said:


> Don’t speak too soon, you don’t want to curse it!!


haha. Good point


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> it’s 100% NOT THE CABLES


I do think you need to be careful drawing conclusions based on so little evidence.


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> I truly appreciate your most considerate offer and am looking forward to reading about your findings. I'd wondered whether or not your previous attempt at that video chain configuration was while solely utilizing monitor 1, as I've found that, even with ARC/eARC disabled, HDMI conflicts have occurred at that output. I'll keep my fingers crossed that, this time, you won't encounter video handshake issues (and the presence of audio dropouts should be *ZERO *since, acting as the switcher, the Denon would be functioning in typical fashion for those who don't employ an external video processor).


No problem, but I have not had much in the way of audio drops, so I would not conclude anything if I don't experience any with the discussed configuration. I've watched many a day/hours of content from ROKU/ATV4K/Kaleidescape/Cable Box/PS5/Blu-ray without a drop in the audio from RP to Marantz config. About half of that was lossless ATMOS.


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> I do think you need to be careful drawing conclusions based on so little evidence.


Why do I have to be careful? I don’t understand


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> Why do I have to be careful? I don’t understand


Sigh. I didn't think I would need to spell it out. 

You say "it's 100% NOT THE CABLES" - you don't know that. Just because the cables work fine without the Lumagen in the chain doesn't mean the cables are still contributing something badly TO the chain when the Lumagen is involved in the audio. Jim has mentioned many times the technical details of why this would be the case.

I think, in general, in life, it's too easy to say "hey! I tried this for 5 minutes and it worked for me!" and then to expand that small moment to assume that it could/would work that way for everyone. I see it far too often. There are SO many variables in all this stuff, if anything it's FAR more complex an interplay between devices than what we had 10 years ago. Keep an open mind.


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## 187crew003

yup your right. I won’t post questions any longer and my findings.


----------



## fatherom

Trust me, I'm as frustrated by audio drops as everyone else. We're on the same side.

Edit: I see you posted a much longer message and then edited to say "basically, i give up". If that's what you take away from this, you've missed my point entirely and you're only hurting yourself (and the community).


----------



## 187crew003

fatherom said:


> Trust me, I'm as frustrated by audio drops as everyone else. We're on the same side.
> 
> Edit: I see you posted a much longer message and then edited to say "basically, i give up". If that's what you take away from this, you've missed my point entirely and you're only hurting yourself (and the community).


I must have taken it the wrong way. So hard with text. 
I guess I did miss the point lol.

also been a long day of distanced learning lol. Mightbe time for coffee #3


----------



## MOberhardt

When people are using the Lumagen for switching, I understand this means having multiple sources into it. But is this done for some sort of auto switching benefit, RHID/CEC type thing, eg you just start up player A, and the Lumagen switches to that, and CEC turns on the AVR and projector? Or do you still have to do it manually or via an activity like on a Harmony Elite? Or are most doing it to help with non HDCP 2.2 AVRs?


----------



## 187crew003

For me. Still an activity on the harmony. That’s why not a huge deal I have to use a workaround for the audio drops. Cause it’s all handled by the harmony


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> When people are using the Lumagen for switching, I understand this means having multiple sources into it. But is this done for some sort of auto switching benefit, RHID/CEC type thing, eg you just start up player A, and the Lumagen switches to that, and CEC turns on the AVR and projector? Or do you still have to do it manually or via an activity like on a Harmony Elite? Or are most doing it to help with non HDCP 2.2 AVRs?


I do it manually.

This is a guess/assumption, but I would say most that have high-end complex systems like ours avoid CEC like the plague. That hdmi feature is just a massive train wreck, IMHO.


----------



## tyorll

Hi everyone. Quite new to this and am having trouble with Lumagen Radiance PRO 4242 and NVidia Shield TV Pro and Kodi (ver 18.9). I've noticed that once I've swapped through a couple of movies that I will start to get video and audio cut outs and projector will go black and speakers silent and after a second or two it resumes playing. There doesn't seem to be any interuption to the video as it seems to be playing happily in the background and has advanced normally in time. It's just the audio/visual display is interupted.
Once I've noticed this, I have attempted changing the source to the Lumagen to Bluray player and it plays without interuption, but will continue to cut out if I change back to the Nvidia Shield device.
My chain is Nvidia -> Lumagen -> Anthem and Projector. 
CEC works flawlessly from all sources.
I've also noticed that by switching the Radiance Pro off and on again (standby -> on) it will sometimes fix the issue and the black/cut outs will cease, but not always.

NVidia output is the default 4K, 59.94Hz, YCbCr 4:2:0 10bit Rec 2020.
Kodi is setup correctly to passthrough audio and the Anthem recognises Dolby Atmos etc when it is present in the audio stream.
Has anyone else successfully mated the NVidia Shield Pro with the Lumagen Radiance PRO and if so what settings should be changed to optimise this? Avoid the black/cut outs?
Any tips/advice is appreciated.


----------



## aguy

I will keenly follow the previous post because I experience something similar with my PS4 glitching. When running through the lumagen it pauses every second or so. The thing that fixes it is to put the lumagen into standby and then turn it on again. I’m assuming this has to do with hdmi handshaking but I’m not exactly sure how to go about trouble shooting it as to whether it’s on the input to the lumagen or the output side from lumagen to display. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

tyorll said:


> Hi everyone. Quite new to this and am having trouble with Lumagen Radiance PRO 4242 and NVidia Shield TV Pro and Kodi (ver 18.9). I've noticed that once I've swapped through a couple of movies that I will start to get video and audio cut outs and projector will go black and speakers silent and after a second or two it resumes playing. There doesn't seem to be any interuption to the video as it seems to be playing happily in the background and has advanced normally in time. It's just the audio/visual display is interupted.
> Once I've noticed this, I have attempted changing the source to the Lumagen to Bluray player and it plays without interuption, but will continue to cut out if I change back to the Nvidia Shield device.
> My chain is Nvidia -> Lumagen -> Anthem and Projector.
> CEC works flawlessly from all sources.
> I've also noticed that by switching the Radiance Pro off and on again (standby -> on) it will sometimes fix the issue and the black/cut outs will cease, but not always.
> 
> NVidia output is the default 4K, 59.94Hz, YCbCr 4:2:0 10bit Rec 2020.
> Kodi is setup correctly to passthrough audio and the Anthem recognises Dolby Atmos etc when it is present in the audio stream.
> Has anyone else successfully mated the NVidia Shield Pro with the Lumagen Radiance PRO and if so what settings should be changed to optimise this? Avoid the black/cut outs?
> Any tips/advice is appreciated.


As suggested to me, try better cables from the Lumagen. I have mine at the projector end so when I got the blanking it was only on the video side ( eg so audio was at the AVR then to the Lumagen, and I only got video hiccups). I pulled out an elbow connector, put in a certified cable and has been good since. I'm getting a premium cable (was recommended above) and longer cable too (eg 2m min recommended).


----------



## steelman1991

MOberhardt said:


> As suggested to me, try better cables from the Lumagen. I have mine at the projector end so when I got the blanking it was only on the video side ( eg so audio was at the AVR then to the Lumagen, and I only got video hiccups). I pulled out an elbow connector, put in a certified cable and has been good since. I'm getting a premium cable (was recommended above) and longer cable too (eg 2m min recommended).


What cable are you getting - one of the Tributaries?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xtrips

Hello,

What's the word around here about Radiance Pro DTM vs. JVC Theater Optimizer with Frame Adapt?
Obviously you can either use one or the other.
Theater Optimizer has no Auto mode to adapt to differences in APL. On the other hand one could think it is better adapted to the device's limitations it runs onto, right?
I would appreciate to get your insight because I am doing an HDR calibration very soon on an N7.
Thanks


----------



## Mark Burton

xtrips said:


> Hello,
> 
> What's the word around here about Radiance Pro DTM vs. JVC Theater Optimizer with Frame Adapt?
> Obviously you can either use one or the other.
> Theater Optimizer has no Auto mode to adapt to differences in APL. On the other hand one could think it is better adapted to the device's limitations it runs onto, right?
> I would appreciate to get your insight because I am doing an HDR calibration very soon on an N7.
> Thanks


lumagen thread - 99% of people will say (rightly IMO) that the lumagen processing is far superior.


----------



## docrog

Mark Burton said:


> lumagen thread - 99% of people will say (rightly IMO) that the lumagen processing is *far* superior.


I think that's a bit of a fanboy attitude to say that "99% of people" find the RP's DTM to be "*FAR"* superior to JVC. It's not really much more than a toss-up on _typical_ HDR content which constitutes the vast majority of what's viewed in the real world. Much more of the attractiveness of the RP relates to capabilities unrelated to DTM.


----------



## Sittler27

Mark Burton said:


> lumagen thread - 99% of people will say (rightly IMO) that the lumagen processing is far superior.


and it is....


----------



## PeterLarsson

I have owned NX5 for more than six months, I have compared NX5 directly with Sony VW790 alone and with Lumagen. I would like to state that Lumagen outperforms JVCs DTM solution. 

Lumagen is better in judging the highlights and specles, Lumagen never show signs on dim and dull picture, Lumagen have a more dynamic and picture full of contrast than JVCs solution. JVCs solution is free and very good! I always was under the impression that HDR MUST be dark and somehow dim and that was my impression even with JVC (compared to SDR). That is very my impression with a Lumagen processed DTM picture.

My journey proves my text above, February 2020 changed projector from Sony VW520 to JVC NX5 just because better light output and DTM, changed to Sony VW790 alone in November and end of November I also completed my setup with a Lumagen.


----------



## Erod

Do most of you set your Lumagen to output 60 Hz for all sources to speed up switching time? If so, how does that make a UHD disc look in comparison to its native 24 Hz fps?


----------



## MOberhardt

Erod said:


> Do most of you set your Lumagen to output 60 Hz for all sources to speed up switching time? If so, how does that make a UHD disc look in comparison to its native 24 Hz fps?


Oh gee, please dont. Just try to think of what is done to a native image at 24 fps to make it display at 60 fps. They aren't even multiples. So it either has to triple every other frame, or interpolate a fake frame. It is an abomination, and a throwback to the NTSC 3:2 pull down rubbish.

I can't believe all over the world we are still living with this random decision made back in the 19th century for AC power frequency. Unbelievable. Eg in Australia it is 50 Hz, 60Hz in the US, so TV signals used the AC frequency for timing, so you got 60hz with 3:2 pull down, we got 50Hz with 4% speed up... And we still suffer for this choice from the 1900s...


----------



## MOberhardt

steelman1991 said:


> What cable are you getting - one of the Tributaries?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes a Tributaries


----------



## Erod

MOberhardt said:


> Oh gee, please dont. Just try to think of what is done to a native image at 24 fps to make it display at 60 fps. They aren't even multiples. So it either has to triple every other frame, or interpolate a fake frame. It is an abomination, and a throwback to the NTSC 3:2 pull down rubbish.
> 
> I can't believe all over the world we are still living with this random decision made back in the 19th century for AC power frequency. Unbelievable. Eg in Australia it is 50 Hz, 60Hz in the US, so TV signals used the AC frequency for timing, so you got 60hz with 3:2 pull down, we got 50Hz with 4% speed up... And we still suffer for this choice from the 1900s...


It was a comment I heard from Jim at Lumagen which caught me off guard. He mentioned it as a way to reduce source switching time. In fact, my RS3000 switches really quickly anyway, so it's not an issue.

I hope to be able to force bt2020 to all sources without any weird color issues. That will keep my filter from constantly changing. 

My Lumagen is on its way, so I'm not hooked up yet.


----------



## MOberhardt

Erod said:


> It was a comment I heard from Jim at Lumagen which caught me off guard. He mentioned it as a way to reduce source switching time. In fact, my RS3000 switches really quickly anyway, so it's not an issue.
> 
> I hope to be able to force bt2020 to all sources without any weird color issues. That will keep my filter from constantly changing.
> 
> My Lumagen is on its way, so I'm not hooked up yet.


Yes, Kris Deering set mine up and I get BT2020 for everything so I don't need to touch anything on the projector. Works really well for me. Oddly even for 3D - I didn't expect that to work on the projector, but it takes frame packed 3d 1080p in BT2020.


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## steelman1991

MOberhardt said:


> Yes a Tributaries


Which one did you go for and did you buy direct from USA? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

Erod said:


> It was a comment I heard from Jim at Lumagen which caught me off guard. He mentioned it as a way to reduce source switching time. In fact, my RS3000 switches really quickly anyway, so it's not an issue.
> 
> I hope to be able to force bt2020 to all sources without any weird color issues. That will keep my filter from constantly changing.
> 
> My Lumagen is on its way, so I'm not hooked up yet.


I recall that he'd also said that he didn't do this, and his PJ takes longer to sync than most (it's an RS4500). 

I'm sure there are people who are more aggrieved by switching speed than framerate accuracy - particularly in the US where whole generations have grown up accustomed to 3:2 cadence that was inflicted on DVD releases.

For what it's worth you should be able to avoid the filter switching now on your JVC without the Lumagen. It is perfectly possible to set up SDR to use the filter on a JVC projector without a Lumagen (I'm not lobbying against the Lumagen, I have one myself, just pointing out the fact). If you don't like any of the built in SDR profiles with the colour filter, you can use the JVC autocal utility to upload a plain REC709 filtered profile (@Manni01 had some, I don't have a link to hand). It's also possible to make your own very easily - all you need do is specify the primary and white points plus maybe gamma and filter state I recall (long time since I bothered). But you'll almost certainly get a better result with a proper calibration in the Lumagen, so congrats. 

While you can use the same 2020 calibration for SDR and HDR with the Lumagen, I don't believe this is optimal as it constrains them to have the same levels lineup if you want the calibration to be accurate for both SDR and HDR. But it is an added level of complexity having separate SDR and HDR calibrations.

With respect to frame rate, in my own theatre I make my player UIs run at 24p wherever possible, which minimizes the occasions when rate switching is required (as most of the streamed content I watch is also 24p).


----------



## MOberhardt

steelman1991 said:


> Which one did you go for and did you buy direct from USA?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Still sorting that out. I've found a local-ish store in that has stock. They'll be regular hours next week

I did manage to pick up a used one cheap on ebay from someone who seems to be really cable upgrade happy, but it is only a 1.5m cable. I figure I can always use that between a UHD player and AVR.


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## steelman1991

MOberhardt said:


> Still sorting that out. I've found a local-ish store in that has stock. They'll be regular hours next week
> 
> I did manage to pick up a used one cheap on ebay from someone who seems to be really cable upgrade happy, but it is only a 1.5m cable. I figure I can always use that between a UHD player and AVR.


Let us know how you get on. Curious to see if it resolves your issues. Can’t seem to find a distributor in the UK, your in Oz aren’t you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

steelman1991 said:


> Let us know how you get on. Curious to see if it resolves your issues. Can’t seem to find a distributor in the UK, your in Oz aren’t you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I'm in Australia.

Should be able to get one on ebay from the US worst case.

I'm sure it will - especially given I haven't had the issue since I removed the elbow, relocated the lumagen slightly, and used the monoprice. The monoprice is a 3ft one though so I'm taking heed of the recommendations and going longer, just for more peace of mind.


----------



## Mike_WI

FYI from AVS email...


*HDR10+ Technologies Announces New HDR10+ ADAPTIVE Standard*​The HDR10+ consortium, whose major contributors include Samsung and Panasonic, recently announced an amendment to the HDR10+ HDR video standard. The new 'HDR10+ ADAPTIVE' update will focus on bringing a more consistent high dynamic range image, no matter where people are watching it.

Citing issues that stem around the differences in the environment in which HDR content is typically mastered in with those of where most consumers are watching, HDR10+ ADAPTIVE will use both dynamic metadata and measured-in-real-time ambient light readings to adapt the display's image brightness to cut out excessive amounts of reflected and ambient light within the viewing environment in hopes it will bring back the correct level of subjective dynamic range Hollywood studios saw in their more ideal environment where the content was mastered.

A number of consumer electronics companies have recently adopted the HDR10+ standard and are expected to release new products this year that include support for this latest version HDR10+. These companies include Qualcomm, Realtek, Denon, and Marantz. What's more, television manufacturers Samsung and Panasonic are expected to release new displays supporting HDR10+ ADAPTIVE sometime this year as well.

Keep an eye on virtual-CES this year for more information.


----------



## Kris Deering

Sounds like HDR10+ version of Dolby Vision Home. All of this would have been completely unnecessary if they would have just thought out HDR better in the first place and not done an absolute system that makes ZERO sense in real world usage.


----------



## dlinsley

steelman1991 said:


> Let us know how you get on. Curious to see if it resolves your issues. Can’t seem to find a distributor in the UK, your in Oz aren’t you?


Maybe @Gordon Fraser?


----------



## jrp

I have talked much about HDMI cables. Here is summary.

HDMI cabling is about the system aspects. The driver, the cable and the receiver all play into the robustness. It turns out that the Radiance Pro output chips have edge rates and EQ toward the higher end of the spectrum. The Radiance Pro output jitter and electrical noise is among the lowest in the industry. In other words the Radiance Pro output is about the cleanest for HDMI there is. So it comes down of the edge rate and EQ.

Never use less than a two meter passive HDMI cable. There is cable EQ in all version of HDMI since HDMI 1.1. The EQ assumes there is cable attenuation. It is not that the shorter cables are faulty. The issue is they do not provide enough attenuation. This is even more true for faster edge signal edge rates.

Audio fails first. This is because there is no audio clock for HDMI. It is calculated at the destination based on an "M/N" ratio (video clock / audio clock) provided by the source. I believe the way audio is transported on HDMI is a bad idea (and I have thought this from before HDMI was introduced). I have a suspicion that an audio processor's ability to handle the small changes in this ratio that HDMI audio will most certainly have does play a part in audio dropouts. Why not just have added one more differential pair for audio. It would have made transition from DVI to HDMI nearly trivial and improved the audio at the same time. Of course no one asked me.

For audio dropouts, the most common fix is a longer excellent HDMI cable. I have a lot of support experience where going from 2 meters to 3 meters (and up to 6 meters) resolves audio issues. Generally this is between the Radiance Pro and the audio processor, but I recently eliminated audio dropouts for our Lumagen Demo Theater Strato by switching from a 2 meter to a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Strato to the Radiance Pro. Other sources are fine with two meter HDMI cables. So I suspect, like the Radiance Pro, the Strato has edge rates toward the faster end of the spec.

Of course not every issue is a cable related issue, and as I said above it may not even be that the cable is faulty. However, the video and audio must be addressed as a system. For better or worse the HDMI cable is the easiest component of the system to change. So fixing dropouts almost always involves changing the cable.


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> When people are using the Lumagen for switching, I understand this means having multiple sources into it. But is this done for some sort of auto switching benefit, RHID/CEC type thing, eg you just start up player A, and the Lumagen switches to that, and CEC turns on the AVR and projector? Or do you still have to do it manually or via an activity like on a Harmony Elite? Or are most doing it to help with non HDCP 2.2 AVRs?


I’ve had zero issues using the Lumagen as a video switcher, it’s a total joy from trying to get the MX160 AVP to handle it. I use a Harmony Ultimate in my system which works brilliantly to automate everything, not to mention how cost effective it is.


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> I have talked much about HDMI cables. Here is summary.
> 
> HDMI cabling is about the system aspects. The driver, the cable and the receiver all play into the robustness. It turns out that the Radiance Pro output chips have edge rates and EQ toward the higher end of the spectrum. The Radiance Pro output jitter and electrical noise is among the lowest in the industry. In other words the Radiance Pro output is about the cleanest for HDMI there is. So it comes down of the edge rate and EQ.
> 
> Never use less than a two meter passive HDMI cable. There is cable EQ in all version of HDMI since HDMI 1.1. The EQ assumes there is cable attenuation. It is not that the shorter cables are faulty. The issue is they do not provide enough attenuation. This is even more true for faster edge signal edge rates.
> 
> Audio fails first. This is because there is no audio clock for HDMI. It is calculated at the destination based on an "M/N" ratio (video clock / audio clock) provided by the source. I believe the way audio is transported on HDMI is a bad idea (and I have thought this from before HDMI was introduced). I have a suspicion that an audio processor's ability to handle the small changes in this ratio that HDMI audio will most certainly have does play a part in audio dropouts. Why not just have added one more differential pair for audio. It would have made transition from DVI to HDMI nearly trivial and improved the audio at the same time. Of course no one asked me.
> 
> For audio dropouts, the most common fix is a longer excellent HDMI cable. I have a lot of support experience where going from 2 meters to 3 meters (and up to 6 meters) resolves audio issues. Generally this is between the Radiance Pro and the audio processor, but I recently eliminated audio dropouts for our Lumagen Demo Theater Strato by switching from a 2 meter to a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Strato to the Radiance Pro. Other sources are fine with two meter HDMI cables. So I suspect, like the Radiance Pro, the Strato has edge rates toward the faster end of the spec.
> 
> Of course not every issue is a cable related issue, and as I said above it may not even be that the cable is faulty. However, the video and audio must be addressed as a system. For better or worse the HDMI cable is the easiest component of the system to change. So fixing dropouts almost always involves changing the cable.


That is a most illuminating post. 

I have been having various issues with glitchy video on one source and audio dropouts on another source. I have 3-5 metre cables on the output side. All certified premium cables. 

My input cables are Monoprice thin certified premium cables but are 6 feet. I may change them to 3 metre long to double check 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## steelman1991

MOberhardt said:


> Yes I'm in Australia.
> 
> Should be able to get one on ebay from the US worst case.
> 
> I'm sure it will - especially given I haven't had the issue since I removed the elbow, relocated the lumagen slightly, and used the monoprice. The monoprice is a 3ft one though so I'm taking heed of the recommendations and going longer, just for more peace of mind.


Thankfully I don't have audio drop issues anymore since I moved my sources direct to my processor (Marantz, Emotiva RMC-1 and now a Trinnov Altitude) and on to the LRP. I see no degradation in video quality and switching is rock solid. Just curious what effect the introduction of a cable has. I currently run Monoprice (premium certified 2M cables).

I haven't been following too closely - but is it just the 1 cable you are replacing and between what components?

Thanks


----------



## steelman1991

dlinsley said:


> Maybe @Gordon Fraser?


Sorry was referring to a distributor of Tributaries Cables - not the Lumagen.


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## garyolearysteele

steelman1991 said:


> Sorry was referring to a distributor of Tributaries Cables - not the Lumagen.


Gordon can sell them I believe.


----------



## 187crew003

Just ordered a 10’ minor piece certified hdmi. See if that helps the audio side.


----------



## LJG

Regarding HDMI Cables:

I was running Ruipro 10 Meter fiber cable from Lumagen Pro 4449 to Sony VPL-VW5000ES, all sources minimum 2 meters certified cables. I was having occasional complete drop-outs (Video/Audio) at random times. Both Ash and Jim recommended swapping out Ruipro 10 meters for Tributaries UHDV-Vega 10 Meter. I purchased these from Lumagen/Jim Peterson. There was an issue with the first run and Tributaries sent an advance replacement to me. The new UHDV cable was installed yesterday. I have had zero drop outs, and in fact, I have now been able to enable Genlock in the Lumagen, something that would not work with Ruipro cables. So I suggest everyone try this cable and go from there if you are having drop out issues.


----------



## 187crew003

i have always used genlock. interesting you had troubles with it.

it in fact is the only way for me to get rid of lipsync issues 

hopefully the 10' cable works


----------



## steelman1991

garyolearysteele said:


> Gordon can sell them I believe.


Thanks Gary - interesting, didn't know Gordon carried them. Last time he was here he was recommending Blue Jeans.

Derek


----------



## PeterLarsson

I followed Jim's suggestion in this thread so even if I had quite some HDMI cables at home, I purchased Kramer HDMI cable * 4, 3 m each. ATV, Fiber TV box and UHD player and audio out from Lumagen to Arcam AVR 390 and the finally a 10 m Supra AOC cable from Lumagen to Sony VW790. Before this I tried to have both video and audio routed to Arcam and Arcam to Sony VW790 just to get OSD. 

Result: In both configs, not a single drop out in either audio or picture.


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> I have talked much about HDMI cables. Here is summary.
> 
> HDMI cabling is about the system aspects. The driver, the cable and the receiver all play into the robustness. It turns out that the Radiance Pro output chips have edge rates and EQ toward the higher end of the spectrum. The Radiance Pro output jitter and electrical noise is among the lowest in the industry. In other words the Radiance Pro output is about the cleanest for HDMI there is. So it comes down of the edge rate and EQ.
> 
> Never use less than a two meter passive HDMI cable. There is cable EQ in all version of HDMI since HDMI 1.1. The EQ assumes there is cable attenuation. It is not that the shorter cables are faulty. The issue is they do not provide enough attenuation. This is even more true for faster edge signal edge rates.
> 
> Audio fails first. This is because there is no audio clock for HDMI. It is calculated at the destination based on an "M/N" ratio (video clock / audio clock) provided by the source. I believe the way audio is transported on HDMI is a bad idea (and I have thought this from before HDMI was introduced). I have a suspicion that an audio processor's ability to handle the small changes in this ratio that HDMI audio will most certainly have does play a part in audio dropouts. Why not just have added one more differential pair for audio. It would have made transition from DVI to HDMI nearly trivial and improved the audio at the same time. Of course no one asked me.
> 
> For audio dropouts, the most common fix is a longer excellent HDMI cable. I have a lot of support experience where going from 2 meters to 3 meters (and up to 6 meters) resolves audio issues. Generally this is between the Radiance Pro and the audio processor, but I recently eliminated audio dropouts for our Lumagen Demo Theater Strato by switching from a 2 meter to a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Strato to the Radiance Pro. Other sources are fine with two meter HDMI cables. So I suspect, like the Radiance Pro, the Strato has edge rates toward the faster end of the spec.
> 
> Of course not every issue is a cable related issue, and as I said above it may not even be that the cable is faulty. However, the video and audio must be addressed as a system. For better or worse the HDMI cable is the easiest component of the system to change. So fixing dropouts almost always involves changing the cable.


Thanks. Very informative. I wish I knew about this tech detail a decade ago.

We should have this quote in the first post!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

steelman1991 said:


> Thanks Gary - interesting, didn't know Gordon carried them. Last time he was here he was recommending Blue Jeans.
> 
> Derek


I do recommend the Belden cable from bluejeans as its easily available in UK and it works. I can supply the tributaries cables as i can get them from Lumagen. I will look at setting up a distributer account with them direct. For now Gary will be the first "test case" in UK for them.


----------



## mandragora

giomania said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> That guide is mine.
> 
> For CMS 0, you should use the SDR709 colorspace for SDR.
> For CMS 1, you should use the SDR2020 colorspace for HDR with a projector.
> 
> I have a JVC RS540, and use two separate user profiles on it, because I want different iris settings for SDR and HDR sources. The HDR user profile requires higher brightness, so I have the manual iris wide open.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Mark


Hey Mark thanks for the reply ... a bit late as I've been enjoying my system for the last 2 weeks being on holiday after a loooong time 

thanks to your guide and help from a couple of other forum members I've been able to calibrate my setup (jvc N7 on a 100" screen in a semi-controlled room). The picture it's simply stunning !

again thanks for the great guide it really helped especially the part about setting up the Lumagen for HDR 

take care, 

Ben


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> I have talked much about HDMI cables. Here is summary.
> 
> For audio dropouts, the most common fix is a longer excellent HDMI cable. I have a lot of support experience where going from 2 meters to 3 meters (and up to 6 meters) resolves audio issues. Generally this is between the Radiance Pro and the audio processor, but I recently eliminated audio dropouts for our Lumagen Demo Theater Strato by switching from a 2 meter to a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Strato to the Radiance Pro. Other sources are fine with two meter HDMI cables. So I suspect, like the Radiance Pro, the Strato has edge rates toward the faster end of the spec.
> 
> Of course not every issue is a cable related issue, and as I said above it may not even be that the cable is faulty. However, the video and audio must be addressed as a system. For better or worse the HDMI cable is the easiest component of the system to change. So fixing dropouts almost always involves changing the cable.


Curious. I have a Radiance Pro fed by my Kaleidescape and other sources and audio is split off to the Trinnov, video tot the PJ. Been good for a while, but had some issues lately.

Is the *critical* *cable* the HDMI cable from the KScape to the Lumagen *or* the Lumagen to the Altitude (input #7)... *or* both?

I like the Lumagen switching so I'd like to resolve this. All I see as a workaround is using the Audio Only output on the K directly into the Trinnov and video into the Lumagen. Then I have to manage Lipsync. Is the lipsync generally an issue?


----------



## mandragora

jrp said:


> ...
> If you have a projector/TV that does well with Rec 2020 data (even if only near P3 Gamut), such as the JVC's and Sony's, I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to not have the color filter). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim I'll wait for my N7 to run for another 100 hours and then Ill redo the calibration using your suggested approach and see how it goes.

thanks again, 

Take care, 

Ben


----------



## jont-uk

Gordon Fraser said:


> I do recommend the Belden cable from bluejeans as its easily available in UK and it works. I can supply the tributaries cables as i can get them from Lumagen. I will look at setting up a distributer account with them direct. For now Gary will be the first "test case" in UK for them.


Gordon ... will be interested in Gary's findings - unless you want a second 'tester' - seeing as we have the same AVR and similar but different drop-out issues ;-) ... btw I am still waiting on HDFury feedback via Joe F about using one as an audio splitter so I can feed video to the Sony tv and the Epson PJ from the Lumagen 4242C without problems ... the power injection hdmi lead you sent me doesn't appear to have made any difference so will send it back to you  ... thx


----------



## Mark Burton

Guys, I don’t think the audio drop outs is lumagen related.

I’ve been trying various configs over the past couple of months, but still getting the occasional audio drop out.

my issue is when if using my Zappiti, I’m currently using the audio out on the zap and into my trinnov. It’s been pretty stable, but I had another drop out tonight.

I’ve just ordered a 4m hdmi certified cable from amazon to test, if this doesn’t work I’ll try one of the cables Jim has recommended, but thought I’d try a £15 cable first.

Jims explanation of hdmi issues seemed to make a lot of sense, I’m wondering if the hdmi board used in the zap is similar to the lumagen in terms of how fast it sends the signal, as I haven’t experienced the drop outs with anything else (admittedly my zap is 90% of my usage).


----------



## aguy

Mark Burton said:


> Guys, I don’t think the audio drop outs is lumagen related.
> 
> I’ve been trying various configs over the past couple of months, but still getting the occasional audio drop out.
> 
> my issue is when if using my Zappiti, I’m currently using the audio out on the zap and into my trinnov. It’s been pretty stable, but I had another drop out tonight.
> 
> I’ve just ordered a 4m hdmi certified cable from amazon to test, if this doesn’t work I’ll try one of the cables Jim has recommended, but thought I’d try a £15 cable first.
> 
> Jims explanation of hdmi issues seemed to make a lot of sense, I’m wondering if the hdmi board used in the zap is similar to the lumagen in terms of how fast it sends the signal, as I haven’t experienced the drop outs with anything else (admittedly my zap is 90% of my usage).


Is it while watching mkv files with atmos by chance ? 

Could it be the well known Kodi atmos bug ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

Mark Burton said:


> Guys, I don’t think the audio drop outs is lumagen related.
> 
> I’ve been trying various configs over the past couple of months, but still getting the occasional audio drop out.
> 
> my issue is when if using my Zappiti, I’m currently using the audio out on the zap and into my trinnov. It’s been pretty stable, but I had another drop out tonight.
> 
> I’ve just ordered a 4m hdmi certified cable from amazon to test, if this doesn’t work I’ll try one of the cables Jim has recommended, but thought I’d try a £15 cable first.
> 
> Jims explanation of hdmi issues seemed to make a lot of sense, I’m wondering if the hdmi board used in the zap is similar to the lumagen in terms of how fast it sends the signal, as I haven’t experienced the drop outs with anything else (admittedly my zap is 90% of my usage).


For some of us (including me), the audio drop outs affect all of my sources (Sony 4K player, Oppo 4K player, etc).


----------



## Mark Burton

fatherom said:


> For some of us (including me), the audio drop outs affect all of my sources (Sony 4K player, Oppo 4K player, etc).


It could do for me also, but 95% of my viewing is on the zap, so don’t have enough hours to confirm either way.


aguy said:


> Is it while watching mkv files with atmos by chance ?
> 
> Could it be the well known Kodi atmos bug ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


different audio sources, tonight was DTSX on an ISO rip, had it with mkv, dts and Atmos as well. Doesn’t appear to be anything consistent.


----------



## Klaus.S

Mark Burton said:


> It could do for me also, but 95% of my viewing is on the zap, so don’t have enough hours to confirm either way.
> 
> 
> different audio sources, tonight was DTSX on an ISO rip, had it with mkv, dts and Atmos as well. Doesn’t appear to be anything consistent.


Are you using audio out on the zappiti? 

I do that and have done it for a while now. No audio drop since. 


Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

I never had dropouts before adding the lumagen


----------



## crtone

bobof said:


> With respect to frame rate, in my own theatre I make my player UIs run at 24p wherever possible, which minimizes the occasions when rate switching is required (as most of the streamed content I watch is also 24p).


I am also plagued by APTV's blanking screens and have been trying many remedies mentioned here (All my HDMI's are 6 ft Trabutaries), with only partial success. By partial I mean that after restarting the system several times, asking it check the HDMI connection etc., once it is stable, it is so for the whole night. Next day the same process again.

I am tempted to set the APTV at @24 SDR with enabled HDR and dynamic switch and rate match (Chroma at 4:4:4). It is more stable with this option. 

Question will my video quality suffer ?

Please advise.


----------



## MOberhardt

crtone said:


> I am also plagued by APTV's blanking screens and have been trying many remedies mentioned here (All my HDMI's are 6 ft Trabutaries), with only partial success. By partial I mean that after restarting the system several times, asking it check the HDMI connection etc., once it is stable, it is so for the whole night. Next day the same process again.
> 
> I am tempted to set the APTV at @24 SDR with enabled HDR and dynamic switch and rate match (Chroma at 4:4:4). It is more stable with this option.
> 
> Question will my video quality suffer ?
> 
> Please advise.


What is an APTV?


----------



## sunnya23

aguy said:


> I will keenly follow the previous post because I experience something similar with my PS4 glitching. When running through the lumagen it pauses every second or so. The thing that fixes it is to put the lumagen into standby and then turn it on again. I’m assuming this has to do with hdmi handshaking but I’m not exactly sure how to go about trouble shooting it as to whether it’s on the input to the lumagen or the output side from lumagen to display.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is exactly what I have been doing. Part of my start-up process before watching anything in my home theater is just putting the Lumagen in standby and then turning on again. Then I proceed to actually play content. Helps with audio drop outs and occasional lip sync issues as well.


----------



## crtone

MOberhardt said:


> What is an APTV?


APTV=Apple TV 4K Latest version.


----------



## Mike Garrett

187crew003 said:


> I never had dropouts before adding the lumagen


That does not mean the problem is the Lumagen. Heard that exact statement a 100 times in the projector threads and 99.99% of the time it was cable problem.


----------



## MOberhardt

crtone said:


> APTV=Apple TV 4K Latest version.


Ah.
Doesn't ATV have issues with actual 24p content, and image stutter and drop, eg The Witcher? Eg the device handles 23.976 is fine, but full 24p causes playback problems.


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> Ah.
> Doesn't ATV have issues with actual 24p content, and image stutter and drop, eg The Witcher? Eg the device handles 23.976 is fine, but full 24p causes playback problems.


If there is 24.00 or 60.00 content from a player make sure the Radiance Pro has Rate Match = On in output Style0. Otherwise the Radiance Pro will output at 23.98 or 59.94. This could cause issues with video and possibly with audio.


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Ah.
> Doesn't ATV have issues with actual 24p content, and image stutter and drop, eg The Witcher? Eg the device handles 23.976 is fine, but full 24p causes playback problems.


Correct. Content on ATV that is 24.00 is output as 23.976 from the ATV. But this is pretty much the case with all streaming devices. You can work around with a Shield and a side app but it is not plug and play.


----------



## MOberhardt

Kris Deering said:


> Correct. Content on ATV that is 24.00 is output as 23.976 from the ATV. But this is pretty much the case with all streaming devices. You can work around with a Shield and a side app but it is not plug and play.


So does that 24 -> 23.976 on the Apple TV then result in any blanking type issues, or just stuttering. Eg related at all to some comments and the ATV 4k and video drop prior.


----------



## Erod

So I'll be adding a Lumagen to my system tomorrow, and I've been reading through the thread and I see different opinions on hookup.

Do I leave my source inputs in my Anthem AVM60 and just put the Lumagen between it and the projector? Or do I run my sources into the Lumagen and audio out to the Anthem? 

Is there a visible video quality or a performance difference either way?

If I use the Anthem for switching, do I run the video into Input 1 on the Lumagen? 

If I use the Lumagen for switching, which input on the Anthem do I run the audio into? 

Thanks.


----------



## PeterLarsson

I have a slight concern around judder och some kind of stutter - hope someone of you could help me out here. My projector Sony VW790 is famous for its processing and smoothness of 24 fps (as smooth as that can be). I experience stutter and not so smooth picture not only in pannings also small directional chnages could casue losing focus and stuttering that for me is quite visible and disturbing. I have take out Lumagen from the chain I do not experience this at all - I tried that yesterday evening just to be sure.

So the things I have done is:
1. Use good HDMI cables that is more than three meters (Kramer flat and the long one is a Supra OAC)
2. Rate match is on - if in is 50 fps Luymagen is sending that out (I am a PAL guy) same as for 23.98 in from UHD player, Lumagen is sending the same out
3. All components except for ATV is using 9ghz input
3. I have not tried Genlock, however since I have added 10 seconds + 5 + 35 when starting up an activity I dont want to increase that even more. 

Is this familier? I experince this with all the three components connected to Lumagen, Fibre TV, ATV and UHD player Panasonic UB-820

Hope to get som help here


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I have a slight concern around judder och some kind of stutter - hope someone of you could help me out here. My projector Sony VW790 is famous for its processing and smoothness of 24 fps (as smooth as that can be). I experience stutter and not so smooth picture not only in pannings also small directional chnages could casue losing focus and stuttering that for me is quite visible and disturbing. I have take out Lumagen from the chain I do not experience this at all - I tried that yesterday evening just to be sure.
> 
> So the things I have done is:
> 1. Use good HDMI cables that is more than three meters (Kramer flat and the long one is a Supra OAC)
> 2. Rate match is on - if in is 50 fps Luymagen is sending that out (I am a PAL guy) same as for 23.98 in from UHD player, Lumagen is sending the same out
> 3. All components except for ATV is using 9ghz input
> 3. I have not tried Genlock, however since I have added 10 seconds + 5 + 35 when starting up an activity I dont want to increase that even more.
> 
> Is this familier? I experince this with all the three components connected to Lumagen, Fibre TV, ATV and UHD player Panasonic UB-820
> 
> Hope to get som help here


Have you checked when you have judder that the Lumagen input and output are actually matched? Press ok on the remote is enough to bring up the status screen that shows in / out formats and rates.

Rate match in the Lumagen isn't what you might think. It is about particularly rate matching the integer and non-integer versions of frame rates to clocks for "24p" and "60p". ie 23.976 and 59.94 are matched to 1000/1001 output rate, and 24.00 and 60p are matched to 1000/1000 output rates. It doesn't enforce 23.976 is out as 23.976, just that the clock rate is matching. So you could (for instance) have rate match on with "60p" output of 24.00p content, with input 24.00p and output would end up as 60p. Rate match off would give input 24.00p and output maybe *59.94p (edit)*. So in addition to Rate match, you also need to have the correct output format for each rate. By default the Lumagen does output correct rates, but some of the MENU+ codes suggested form improving switching speed change that behaviour; so if you've used them I'd be suspicious.

With genlock off you can expect some level occasional dropped or duplicate frames; as without genlock the player clock and the radiance clock are completely asynchronous and get dragged back together by adding or dropping a whole frame as they drift out. The frequency of these events would be dictated by the magnitude of the drift in clocks between the player and the Radiance pro, but you wouldn't expect them to be very frequent (think usually an event on an order of multiple minutes timescale, rather than constantly in a pan). So I'd be more likely to believe it was just that the output rate is wrong.

Genlock ties the input and output clocks together using a PLL, so they can't drift relative to each other, but it does affect the behaviour of the output clock that the device on the output of the Radiance sees (it's being "nudged" in the right direction). which some devices don't like much. It shouldn't add much to switching delays if you are already changing rates.

Hope that doesn't serve to confuse you and is helpful...


----------



## crtone

jrp said:


> If there is 24.00 or 60.00 content from a player make sure the Radiance Pro has Rate Match = On in output Style0. Otherwise the Radiance Pro will output at 23.98 or 59.94. This could cause issues with video and possibly with audio.


Thanks Jim,
Most video (streaming/disk etc.) I watch are recorded at 23.98 and today I setup my Apple TV 4K to send @24 SR (i.e. 23.98 SDR) to Radiance Pro , and I did not see any issues in video quality or audio drop out. Even the notorious youtube videos from my Bollywood music videos did not show any difference in video quality.

Tomorrow I will see whether I will face the screen blanking issue when I wake up the Apple TV 4K.

Right now my Radiance Pro is set wake up to input 3 (Roku Ultra) and I watch my content on Roku for about 30-45 min. After that if I switch to Apple TV 4K, intermittant (every few seconds) blank screens are gone, and I can watch any thing on Apple TV 4K all night long without any blanking or audio drops.

My setup: Source (Roku ultra, Apple TV 4K, OTA tuner & Panasonic 4K Bluray player) -> Radiance Pro (six 18 GB inputs & four 18 GH outputs)-> Out4 to JVC RS 2000 projector & Out1 to Danon X6700 AVR.

Surendra


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Have you checked when you have judder that the Lumagen input and output are actually matched? Press ok on the remote is enough to bring up the status screen that shows in / out formats and rates.
> 
> Rate match in the Lumagen isn't what you might think. It is about particularly rate matching the integer and non-integer versions of frame rates to clocks for "24p" and "60p". ie 23.976 and 59.94 are matched to 1000/1001 output rate, and 24.00 and 60p are matched to 1000/1000 output rates. It doesn't enforce 23.976 is out as 23.976, just that the clock rate is matching. So you could (for instance) have rate match on with "60p" output of 24.00p content, with input 24.00p and output would end up as 60p. Rate match off would give input 24.00p and output maybe *59.94p (edit)*. So in addition to Rate match, you also need to have the correct output format for each rate. By default the Lumagen does output correct rates, but some of the MENU+ codes suggested form improving switching speed change that behaviour; so if you've used them I'd be suspicious.
> 
> With genlock off you can expect some level occasional dropped or duplicate frames; as without genlock the player clock and the radiance clock are completely asynchronous and get dragged back together by adding or dropping a whole frame as they drift out. The frequency of these events would be dictated by the magnitude of the drift in clocks between the player and the Radiance pro, but you wouldn't expect them to be very frequent (think usually an event on an order of multiple minutes timescale, rather than constantly in a pan). So I'd be more likely to believe it was just that the output rate is wrong.
> 
> Genlock ties the input and output clocks together using a PLL, so they can't drift relative to each other, but it does affect the behaviour of the output clock that the device on the output of the Radiance sees (it's being "nudged" in the right direction). which some devices don't like much. It shouldn't add much to switching delays if you are already changing rates.
> 
> Hope that doesn't serve to confuse you and is helpful...


Yes, I have checked that with both UHD player and ATV, when pressing ok the input is 23.98 and output the same on both. However when checking the projector it says 24 straight. Take for example the uHD version of the Hobbit, when he walks in the beginning and passiing a lot of plats and gardeing when he walks in shire. All the plants are stuttering when he walks and as soon the pan is more then very little (I know very subjective) it stutters and judder. I never expereinced this prior Lumagen even if Sony VW790 says 24 and the Input from UHD player is 23.98 according to Lumagen.

I was also suspecting the contrast (white) since that is put to max (since it does not impact white level - and the setting enable max dynamics) since the phenomen is only with bright scenes and never with dark content. Also I was lowering the sharpness from 2 to 1 on HDR and 4k since the sharper the more visible the stutter/judder might be.

When you say my output is wrong, I actually have the very same output in terms of frames as the input - I assume that is what you meant?

Anyway thanka alot for your input!


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Yes, I have checked that with both UHD player and ATV, when pressing ok the input is 23.98 and output the same on both. However when checking the projector it says 24 straight. Take for example the uHD version of the Hobbit, when he walks in the beginning and passiing a lot of plats and gardeing when he walks in shire. All the plants are stuttering when he walks and as soon the pan is more then very little (I know very subjective) it stutters and judder. I never expereinced this prior Lumagen even if Sony VW790 says 23 and the Input from UHF player is 24.98 according to Lumagen.


Is what you wrote here correct - that when the Sony is receiving from the Lumagen it says 24 input rate, but when the UHD player is without Lumagen the sony says 23? That would sound like a significant difference if it were true and not just a recollection matter. Worth investigating as I don't think they should say different if it is receiving the same rate.


PeterLarsson said:


> I was also suspecting the contrast (white) since that is put to max (since it does not impact white level - and the setting enable max dynamics) since the phenomen is only with bright scenes and never with dark content. Also I was lowering the sharpness from 2 to 1 on HDR and 4k since the sharper the more visible the stutter/judder might be.


No idea. Maybe the display is just "wrong" and fiddling with the contrast makes it brighter / more obvious. It is of course possible that the Sony is always juddery in this way, but maybe the Sony "tone mapping" makes the image darker and so the judder isn't as noticeable to you. Really at that point you're in the realms of "who knows" if it is some optical effect. I say get to the bottom of things that have numbers next to them first with absolute clarity, and then see if this is still an issue.


PeterLarsson said:


> When you say my output is wrong, I actually have the very same output in terms of frames as the input - I assume that is what you meant?


I'm not saying it is wrong because I can't see what your info screen says , but if the input and output rate are the same on the Lumagen UI then it would sound like it is at least set right. Maybe upload a screenshot to make sure there is no ambiguity? Maybe include the Sony OSD, and show what the Sony OSD shows when you have "no" judder with your player direct? It can be interesting to compare as much information from one situation to another to see which things are changing.

Other "exciting" posibilities I could imagine - if the Sony remembers different motion settings for different input modes, it is possible you had some kind of MotionFlow or whatever processing on when in HDR without the Lumagen, but that it is now disabled, and so you're just noticing the difference between your projector settings having been changed (intentionally or unintentionally).

Did you have the system calibrated recently? A lot of calibrators would disable the motion stuff in a display as a matter of course, so you might just be disliking this aspect of the calibrated settings, and before you had the Motionflow or whatever enabled.

Anyway, those are some thoughts for you, it's what I'd be looking at to try and work through it.


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Is what you wrote here correct - that when the Sony is receiving from the Lumagen it says 24 input rate, but when the UHD player is without Lumagen the sony says 23? That would sound like a significant difference if it were true and not just a recollection matter. Worth investigating as I don't think they should say different if it is receiving the same rate.
> 
> No idea. Maybe the display is just "wrong" and fiddling with the contrast makes it brighter / more obvious. It is of course possible that the Sony is always juddery in this way, but maybe the Sony "tone mapping" makes the image darker and so the judder isn't as noticeable to you. Really at that point you're in the realms of "who knows" if it is some optical effect. I say get to the bottom of things that have numbers next to them first with absolute clarity, and then see if this is still an issue.
> 
> I'm not saying it is wrong because I can't see what your info screen says , but if the input and output rate are the same on the Lumagen UI then it would sound like it is at least set right. Maybe upload a screenshot to make sure there is no ambiguity? Maybe include the Sony OSD, and show what the Sony OSD shows when you have "no" judder with your player direct? It can be interesting to compare as much information from one situation to another to see which things are changing.
> 
> Other "exciting" posibilities I could imagine - if the Sony remembers different motion settings for different input modes, it is possible you had some kind of MotionFlow or whatever processing on when in HDR without the Lumagen, but that it is now disabled, and so you're just noticing the difference between your projector settings having been changed (intentionally or unintentionally).
> 
> Did you have the system calibrated recently? A lot of calibrators would disable the motion stuff in a display as a matter of course, so you might just be disliking this aspect of the calibrated settings, and before you had the Motionflow or whatever enabled.
> 
> Anyway, those are some thoughts for you, it's what I'd be looking at to try and work through it.


So great with your support, thanks a million 

No, misunderstanding, when input from ATV or UHD player says 23.98, output 23.98 (all on Lumagen) Sony says 24. 

I always turn off all the "improvemenst" myself the first thing I do actually so no motion stuff or anything on all is set to off. Only think that is on, is Dynamic Control, set to middle since it improves the blacks really much. But that is the laser and Iris working together and shouldn't have any impact on stutter or judder. I will upload pictures later just to show my settings for both UB-820 UHD player and Apple TV.


----------



## steelman1991

PeterLarsson said:


> So great with your support, thanks a million
> 
> No, misunderstanding, when input from ATV or UHD player says 23.98, output 23.98 (all on Lumagen) Sony says 24.
> 
> I always turn off all the "improvemenst" myself the first thing I do actually so no motion stuff or anything on all is set to off. Only think that is on, is Dynamic Control, set to middle since it improves the blacks really much. But that is the laser and Iris working together and shouldn't have any impact on stutter or judder. I will upload pictures later just to show my settings for both UB-820 UHD player and Apple TV.


I think it’s just a generic “24” which in essence means 23.976. My JVC PJ reports the same as do other devices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> So great with your support, thanks a million


Just to be clear I'm nothing to do with Lumagen support or co, I'm just another user like you with maybe a few more miles on the unit 



PeterLarsson said:


> No, misunderstanding, when input from ATV or UHD player says 23.98, output 23.98 (all on Lumagen) Sony says 24.


Yes, but the key point was you later seemed to say that when the UHD player was connected direct to the Sony it says 23 as opposed to 24? Is that true? Or did I misunderstand, or a typo. That seems perhaps a significant detail - at least in so much as being a difference. Might not be related but worth understanding. This was your post but the numbers are a bit all over the place as clearly 24.98 is a typo so I was in a bit of doubt as to exactly what you are saying:


PeterLarsson said:


> Yes, I have checked that with both UHD player and ATV, when pressing ok the input is 23.98 and output the same on both. However when checking the projector it says 24 straight. Take for example the uHD version of the Hobbit, when he walks in the beginning and passiing a lot of plats and gardeing when he walks in shire. All the plants are stuttering when he walks and as soon the pan is more then very little (I know very subjective) it stutters and judder. I never expereinced this prior Lumagen *even if Sony VW790 says 23 *and the Input from UHF player is *24.98* according to Lumagen.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Sorry will correct that one, it is def a typo. Sony shows 24 nothing else (and 50 if I feed with menus or normal TV)


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Sorry will correct that one, it is def a typo. Sony shows 24 nothing else (and 50 if I feed with menus or normal TV)


Ok, well if you're sure you don't have any rate discrepancies anywhere then (you mentioned it like it was different) and you don't have any other different settings, I'd maybe be thinking about whether it is some kind of optical effect due to increased on screen APL. DLP projection for instancewas well known for triggering RBE more often when the image was brighter, and the eye does see different through the different ranges, so to compare effectively you'd want to at least try and brightness match the scene.

I'm not going to say there isn't a difference in the motion, as clearly there might be, maybe something about the Lumagen is triggering something in the Sony, but I'd really be looking at all the things around it in great painstaking detail first to make sure the comparison was fair. It's not unusual for projectors to have subtle differences in the way they process signals you might otherwise would expect to be more similar. There are a few oddities on the JVC projectors like that. You might find that there is some undefeatable feature you were getting the benefit from when the player was sending direct to the PJ, for instance.


----------



## Erod

Erod said:


> So I'll be adding a Lumagen to my system tomorrow, and I've been reading through the thread and I see different opinions on hookup.
> 
> Do I leave my source inputs in my Anthem AVM60 and just put the Lumagen between it and the projector? Or do I run my sources into the Lumagen and audio out to the Anthem?
> 
> Is there a visible video quality or a performance difference either way?
> 
> If I use the Anthem for switching, do I run the video into Input 1 on the Lumagen?
> 
> If I use the Lumagen for switching, which input on the Anthem do I run the audio into?
> 
> Thanks.


Anyone mind chiming in on this? It got lost in the thread.


----------



## Mike_WI

(deleted)


----------



## Mark Burton

Erod said:


> Anyone mind chiming in on this? It got lost in the thread.


You shouldn’t get any video degradation, do what works best for you. Some use the avr for input changing, others use the lumagen.


----------



## Beamis

LJG said:


> Regarding HDMI Cables:
> 
> I was running Ruipro 10 Meter fiber cable from Lumagen Pro 4449 to Sony VPL-VW5000ES, all sources minimum 2 meters certified cables. I was having occasional complete drop-outs (Video/Audio) at random times. Both Ash and Jim recommended swapping out Ruipro 10 meters for Tributaries UHDV-Vega 10 Meter. I purchased these from Lumagen/Jim Peterson. There was an issue with the first run and Tributaries sent an advance replacement to me. The new UHDV cable was installed yesterday. I have had zero drop outs, and in fact, I have now been able to enable Genlock in the Lumagen, something that would not work with Ruipro cables. So I suggest everyone try this cable and go from there if you are having drop out issues.


I will second the above. On my recent installation, I had 2 meter Tributary cables with all my sources except for a 10 meter Ruipro cable to my Sony 695ES projector. This Audioquest fiber cable is 4K 18G and it was the issue. Kris D did my remote install and prior to my install he said the Ruipro could be an issue. Kris was right, as well as Jim, Ash, LJG and many others! The Ruipro worked fine with my Denon and projector prior to the Lumagen 4242 with no video/audio issues. However, after adding the Lumagen, I had issues with handshake as well as video and audio.

Easy fix- Tributaries UHDV-Vega 10 meter was shipped out, had it wall fished and now everything works flawlessly.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> Comments on recent posts:
> 
> If you own a Trinnov Altitude, and if you have the original 4k MDS switch board (it has 7 inputs), I recommend you use either Input 6 or Input 7 to connect audio from the Pro (or any source). Input 6 is the next best. Avoid inputs 1 to 4 as they go through two HDMI input chips in series and have on occasion been known to have more issues.
> 
> I do not have any experience with the recently released Trinnov switch board. So no recommendation on input choice for that.
> 
> ====
> 
> If you have a projector/TV that does well with Rec 2020 data (even if only near P3 Gamut), such as the JVC's and Sony's, I am now recommending that both CMS0 (SDR default) and CMS1 (HDR default) Colorspace be set to SDR2020, and the projector be put in Bt.2020 mode (or for JVC "HDR" mode to not have the color filter). Make sure projector Gamma is set to 2.4. This eliminates one type of output restart (SDR to/from HDR), and means you do not need to select a color mode in the projector when changing from SDR 709 (output as SDR709) content to HDR 2020 content (output as SDR2020). This is also helpful if you do not have a control system.
> 
> If on the other hand your projector/TV only has a Gamut around Rec 709, set both CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709. It seems many (most?) DLP projectors fall in this category.
> 
> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


Jim:

Can you please clarify original 4K MDS switch board(it has 7 inputs)," I recommend you use either Input 6 or Input 7 to connect audio from the Pro (or any source). Input 6 is the next best. Avoid inputs 1 to 4 as they go through two HDMI input chips in series and have on occasion been known to have more issues." Is Input 7 best then input 6 next best?


----------



## Mark Burton

Beamis said:


> I will second the above. On my recent installation, I had 2 meter Tributary cables with all my sources except for a 10 meter Ruipro cable to my Sony 695ES projector. This Ruipro fiber cable is 4K 18G certified and it was the issue. Kris D did my remote install and prior to my install he said the Ruipro could be an issue. Kris was right, as well as Jim, Ash, LJG and many others! The Ruipro worked fine with my Denon and projector prior to the Lumagen 4242 with no video/audio issues. However, after adding the Lumagen, I had issues with handshake as well as video and audio.
> 
> Easy fix- Tributaries UHDV-Vega 10 meter was shipped out, had it wall fished and now everything works flawlessly.


so are you saying that even the Lumagen to PJ cable made a difference to the audio drop outs?

If so, how does this even work? The audio should go nowhere near the PJ.

maybe I need to change ALL of my cables to the tributaries cables, but that is getting £££££


----------



## LJG

I think a big issue in all this is the loss of HDCP handshake if that occurs anywhere in the chain all bets are off and it could result in loss of audio. video or both.


----------



## Beamis

Mark Burton said:


> so are you saying that even the Lumagen to PJ cable made a difference to the audio drop outs?
> 
> If so, how does this even work? The audio should go nowhere near the PJ.
> 
> maybe I need to change ALL of my cables to the tributaries cables, but that is getting £££££


I have 2m tributary cables from all video sources to the Lumagen. HDMI output 1 to my Denon 8500 also using a 2m tributary cable. I replaced all these prior to installing the Lumagen to prevent issues. Then HDMI output 2 to the projector using the Tributary UHDV-vega 10 meter cable. I was not having audio dropouts or issues with the initial tributary cables installed. I was having video issues with the Ruipro to the projector. I also used Kris D services since I am totally new to the Lumagen. Yes, it is expensive to change out all the cables but it is well worth it to have it work like it is supposed to with amazing video and audio. I’m just enjoying watching movies now.


----------



## aguy

LJG said:


> I think a big issue in all this is the loss of HDCP handshake if that occurs anywhere in the chain all bets are off and it could result in loss of audio. video or both.


Is there a setting to turn HDcp off? I don’t mean a stripper but for inputs that don’t have any hdcp ( eg from my Kodi box) then can I leave it off. The default settings have HDcp on the outputs even when I don’t have any on the input 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

Just switched out my monoprice 2m cable for a 3m cable. See if that helps the audio drops


----------



## aguy

187crew003 said:


> Just switched out my monoprice 2m cable for a 3m cable. See if that helps the audio drops


Input side of lumagen ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

aguy said:


> Input side of lumagen ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No the audio output to the NAD Avr


----------



## Mike_WI

Problem.
Was watching “Expanse” via Amazon Prime on ATV4K and started getting some video noise (audio okay) and then a green screen.
Turned Lumagen to Standby and the On by remote. Same thing.
tried LumagenInput to change and Menu without response.
Powered on/off and still green screen. Menu not responding. Trying unplug now.
Thoughts?

EDIT:
Power cord inplug didn’t work.

projector & system reboot same thing.
Is my Lumagen dead? @jrp

EDIT2:
Works on direct connection to projector.
now rerouting via legacy non 4K Denon 5308CI AVRand downgrading ATV4K settings to 1080 SDR


----------



## dlinsley

Mike_WI said:


> Powered on/off and still green screen. Menu not responding. Trying unplug now.


Source connected directly to the projector (same HDMI cable as usually connects from the Lumagen output) works fine though? If it does, maybe try a bootloader recovery flash?

Looks like from your signature that you dont have a second output card (say 9G) to test with.

(Ugh, sorry)


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> Jim:
> 
> Can you please clarify original 4K MDS switch board(it has 7 inputs)," I recommend you use either Input 6 or Input 7 to connect audio from the Pro (or any source). Input 6 is the next best. Avoid inputs 1 to 4 as they go through two HDMI input chips in series and have on occasion been known to have more issues." Is Input 7 best then input 6 next best?


Slight typo. With the ordinal MDS 4k board (which has 7 inputs) inputs 6 nd 7 are essentially identical. IMO Input 5 is the next best. Then inputs 1 to 4 since they go through two SiI9777 in series.


----------



## Mike_WI

dlinsley said:


> Source connected directly to the projector (same HDMI cable as usually connects from the Lumagen output) works fine though? If it does, maybe try a bootloader recovery flash?
> 
> Looks like from your signature that you dont have a second output card (say 9G) to test with.
> 
> (Ugh, sorry)


Thanks. 
Connecting ATV4K directly to projector gives image. Lumagen must have died. Not good.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> Problem.
> Was watching “Expanse” via Amazon Prime on ATV4K and started getting some video noise (audio okay) and then a green screen.
> Turned Lumagen to Standby and on by remote. Same thing.
> tried Lumagen Input to change and Menu without response.
> Powered on/off and still green screen. Menu not responding. Trying unplug now.
> Thoughts?
> 
> EDIT:
> Power cord unplug didn’t work.
> 
> projector & system reboot same thing.
> Is my Lumagen dead? @jrp
> 
> View attachment 3076346


We have seen a FPGA chip failure give a green screen like the one shown. This could well be the same failure and would require a hardware repair. Please email us at support at Lumagen .com and we will get things started.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> We have seen a FPGA chip failure give a green screen like the one shown. This could well be the same failure and would require a hardware repair. Please email us at support at Lumagen .com and we will get things started.


Thanks for reply. Will do. Bummed out my AV Friday.


----------



## SJHT

Ash Sharma said:


> Hobbit An Expected Journey Extended playing from Kaleidescape on my Sony VW5000 with Radiance Latest Firmware on a 14 Foot Wide ST 100 Screen was spectacular.
> A lot of the movie is dark and in caves etc - with Lumagen DTM Magic the picture was 3 dimensional and every detail visible in the darkest of scenes..
> Good work Jim and Team for giving us such a great movie watching experience and Hope to get many more updates in 2021.


Just watched this and you are right! Amazing. SJ


----------



## 187crew003

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for reply. Will do. Bummed out my AV Friday.


How old is your unit?


----------



## jbrinegar

Erod said:


> Anyone mind chiming in on this? It got lost in the thread.


I have an anthem too, and have run it both ways. No difference in video quality IMO on either option

My personal preference is to run all my sources to my Anthem AVR, then Lumagen, then output 4 to projector. I haven’t had any dropouts this way either. I like having my anthem OSD this way too.

Personal preference


----------



## MOberhardt

SJHT said:


> Just watched this and you are right! Amazing. SJ


I've recently seen the Hobbit and LOTR UHDs , and although impressed with them and the at!os upgrade, at Desolation of Smaug I was starting to really hanker for the 3d. Not so much 8n Unexpected Journey, but definitely the coast two.


----------



## jqmn

When the Lumagen output is restricted to video only (BD player sends complete signal to Lumagen and audio only to audio processor and Lumagen sends only video to the sink) what happens to the HDMI load on the video side coming out of the Lumagen to the sink? Does it drop by a significant amount and thus improve the chance that the HDMI cable to the sink becomes more "tolerant"? Are synch times improved (due to fewer devices being in the direct source to sink chain)? Thanks.


----------



## bobof

jqmn said:


> When the Lumagen output is restricted to video only (BD player sends complete signal to Lumagen and audio only to audio processor and Lumagen sends only video to the sink) what happens to the HDMI load on the video side coming out of the Lumagen to the sink? Does it drop by a significant amount and thus improve the chance that the HDMI cable to the sink becomes more "tolerant"? Are synch times improved (due to fewer devices being in the direct source to sink chain)? Thanks.


I don't think it makes any difference. The HDMI bandwidth for audio is reserved based on the video resolution, and it matters not if the bits are empty or not. HDMI starts to have enough bandwidth for full HDaudio at 720p/50 and up (though there are lower res formats that can support HDaudio with pixel repetition to bulk up the video)

The only things I know of that can impact HDMI clock rates outside of resolution and framerate are reducing the chroma subsampling, plus there is one option in the Lumagen menus that uses some reduced timings that reduces the HDMI clock requirements, but only works on some devices (not on my JVC, but I think it works on some Sony gear).


----------



## Mike_WI

187crew003 said:


> How old is your unit?


According to my notes:
Lumagen RadiancePro 4444 (4-28-16) --> 12-24-16 converted to a 4446

EDIT:
Note my 18GHz card installs were on Christmas Eve 2016 (family was gone and I was "on call" but not busy) and Jim gave me telephone support to get it done.


----------



## jqmn

bobof said:


> I don't think it makes any difference. The only things I know that can impact this are reducing the chroma subsampling, plus there is one option in the Lumagen menus that uses some reduced timings that reduces the HDMI clock requirements, but only works on some devices (not on my JVC, but I think it works on some Sony gear)


I agree on subsampling having a large impact one way or the other. I had been having audio delays at the beginning (studio logo/intro) and one brief dropout typically about thirty minutes in on many discs (regardless of BD or UHD). Yesterday I finally split my audio to the A32 from the player and went direct from the Lumagen to the projector (as recommended by many) instead of everything thru the A32 and then to the projector. For a sample of one, the initial opening logo sound came in must faster, I didn't get the dropout in the movie and I was finally able to play Gemini Man without any issues at all. It is probably all in my mind but the picture also seemed better for fine detail and greater pop in HDR highlights.


----------



## EVH78

Mike_WI said:


> According to my notes:
> Lumagen RadiancePro 4444 (4-28-16) --> 12-24-16 converted to a 4446


Do you get a green screen from all sources (inputs) ? I have had plenty of green screens recently, especially with my Nvidia Shield TV but never with my Oppo. The worst failure I have ever had was a faulty 18 Ghz card. And that was replaced by mail. Very easy procedure! Hang in there


----------



## Mike_WI

EVH78 said:


> Do you get a green screen from all sources (inputs) ? I have had plenty of green screens recently, especially with my Nvidia Shield TV but never with my Oppo. The worst failure I have ever had was a faulty 18 Ghz card. And that was replaced by mail. Very easy procedure! Hang in there


Thanks.
I ended up bypassing Lumagen to watch something last night.
Good idea about more troubleshooting.
Per JRP sounded like a possible FPGA chip.
Was strange to see it fail as I was watching it.
I emailed Lumagen support. Will let you know if I find a fix.

EDIT:
Tried again with Outputs 3 & 4. No signal.
Was on output 2 in past.
Output 1 = audio, which was working.

Also, the "OK"/info button does't change anything and "Menu" doesn't work, so seems like more than one board.


----------



## 187crew003

Ok. Switched hdmi cables to the 10’

weird Occurrence. Was watching bumblebee 4K through the penny 820 > lumagen > pj/avr

at a big explosion while Charlie is in the dumpster the sound cut out. I rewound it and replayed it 5 times. Sound cut out in the exact spot every time. I took the cable and went from paint audio out directly to the avr and replayed it 5 times. No cutouts.
Put the cable BACK from the lumagen and replayed it 5 times. And no cutouts happen.
Starting to thing the connection comes loose from the audio only out on the lumagen.
Can I use any of the other outputs for audio only?
FYI output 1/2 are 18ghz (with 1 being audio only) and 3/4 are 9ghz 

thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

187crew003 said:


> Can I use any of the other outputs for audio only?
> FYI output 1/2 are 18ghz (with 1 being audio only) and 3/4 are 9ghz
> 
> thanks


Any output can be set to audio only or both audio and video...except IN 1 on yours which is always audio only.


----------



## desertdome

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for reply. Will do. Bummed out my AV Friday.


If the repair is going to take a while, I can upload your settings and send you a 4442 loaner unit. Let me know.


----------



## Karl Maga

desertdome said:


> If the repair is going to take a while, I can upload your settings and send you a 4442 loaner unit. Let me know.


Impressive offer. Good on you!


----------



## 187crew003

desertdome said:


> If the repair is going to take a while, I can upload your settings and send you a 4442 loaner unit. Let me know.


This is awesome.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Karl Maga said:


> Impressive offer. Good on you!





187crew003 said:


> This is awesome.


Thats how Lumagen Rolls - their level of service is unbeatable but having a 1U form factor helps also - how can their competition compete with that?


----------



## Mike_WI

desertdome said:


> If the repair is going to take a while, I can upload your settings and send you a 4442 loaner unit. Let me know.


Thanks man! Will be in touch.


----------



## Mike_WI

desertdome said:


> If the repair is going to take a while, I can upload your settings and send you a 4442 loaner unit. Let me know.





Karl Maga said:


> Impressive offer. Good on you!





187crew003 said:


> This is awesome.


Agree. Awesome. @desertdome is a great calibrator.
Many people have seen his audio and video handiwork at AXPONA (remember WAY back then...), but also great on a smaller home scale.


EDIT:
I talked to Jim. Old 2 rack unit hardware sending back to Beaverton.
Going to get a new 1 rack unit 4446.


----------



## bobof

jqmn said:


> I agree on subsampling having a large impact one way or the other. I had been having audio delays at the beginning (studio logo/intro) and one brief dropout typically about thirty minutes in on many discs (regardless of BD or UHD). Yesterday I finally split my audio to the A32 from the player and went direct from the Lumagen to the projector (as recommended by many) instead of everything thru the A32 and then to the projector. For a sample of one, the initial opening logo sound came in must faster, I didn't get the dropout in the movie and I was finally able to play Gemini Man without any issues at all. It is probably all in my mind but the picture also seemed better for fine detail and greater pop in HDR highlights.


Sure, but it's not one thing indicating the other. You've changed a lot about your HDMI chain in changing the order of which devices connect to which. It's almost certainly a fact that in doing that the separation of the audio won't have reduced the bandwidth of the video signal. However your feed to the A32 now has substantially reduced in bandwidth because the audio-only out of the Lumagen is only 720p60.

So much has changed in the re-wire that it would be the work of weeks to figure out exactly which bit of what has improved things for you. These are complex systems, both outputs affect each other (you can see this by turning off the device attached to the audio HDMI, it will make the video HDMI glitch usually). 

In any case, the main thing is it sounds like you're getting better results, so thumbs up all round!


----------



## Ironman1718

Hello

Need some help with my radiance pro. I have a rs3000 with DCR lens The picture is showing at the top and bottom on the velvet frame. The left and right side picture is fine. Zooming will not help as it will make the picture smaller. I have 2.40 set in the lumagen menu. Any ideas. It’s making me lose sleep 😁


----------



## scrowe

Gordon Fraser said:


> I do recommend the Belden cable from bluejeans as its easily available in UK and it works. I can supply the tributaries cables as i can get them from Lumagen. I will look at setting up a distributer account with them direct. For now Gary will be the first "test case" in UK for them.


Hi Gordon, also had a couple of issues recently, but Bluejeans are quite pricey, and Monoprice on Amazon UK in short supply. So I tried a couple of these and touch wood they seem to have done the trick and not too bad price-wise, You can get them on Amazon.com too. I’ve used Startech stuff on the computer-side for over a decade, their stuff is usually high quality., they don’t do much other than this 2m Premium-Certified one.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07215GVGG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## jqmn

bobof said:


> In any case, the main thing is it sounds like you're getting better results, so thumbs up all round!


I tried another disc I use for reference compares and the audio intelligibility and separation has increased (background sounds have become much more distinct and "present"). Brought in the boss and she noticed a better picture and sound-- "it has more contrast"; "audio is better". Don't know why this could be the case but if she notices it then "it must be so"!


----------



## dlinsley

Applemike68 said:


> Need some help with my radiance pro. I have a rs3000 with DCR lens The picture is showing at the top and bottom on the velvet frame. The left and right side picture is fine. Zooming will not help as it will make the picture smaller. I have 2.40 set in the lumagen menu. Any ideas.


Have you measured to confirm the screen is a true 2.40:1? Have you tried adjusting the tilt on the DCR lens (and then use lens shift to bring it back on screen as necessary)? The tilt adjusts aspect a little.


----------



## SJHT

Applemike68 said:


> Hello
> 
> Need some help with my radiance pro. I have a rs3000 with DCR lens The picture is showing at the top and bottom on the velvet frame. The left and right side picture is fine. Zooming will not help as it will make the picture smaller. I have 2.40 set in the lumagen menu. Any ideas. It’s making me lose sleep 😁


May not help, but had a similar issue at one point. I saved my current projector lens position in a memory. Did a factory reset on the lens position and then recalled the saved position from the memory. Fixed it. SJ


----------



## giomania

Mike_WI said:


> Agree. Awesome. @desertdome is a great calibrator.
> Many people have seen his audio and video handiwork at AXPONA (remember WAY back then...), but also great on a smaller home scale.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> I talked to Jim. Old 2 rack unit hardware sending back to Beaverton.
> Going to get a new 1 rack unit 4446.


I also have a 2U Radiance Pro 4446-18G purchased (supposedly) new in September, 2018.

Mark


----------



## Ironman1718

dlinsley said:


> Have you measured to confirm the screen is a true 2.40:1? Have you tried adjusting the tilt on the DCR lens (and then use lens shift to bring it back on screen as necessary)? The tilt adjusts aspect a little.


Hello. The screen is 2.4. I suspect it’s a DCR lens issue. I will try your suggestion tomorrow


----------



## Kris Deering

DCR lens makes the optical image 2.37:1. So you either overscan on the top and bottom or have small black bars to the sides. Some use the masks, some blank. But you’ll have to figure something out for your situation.


----------



## sunnya23

I was wondering if anyone could help me with this issue. I was watching Guardians of the Galaxy in 3D earlier which has shifting aspect ratios (1.78:1, 2.35:1). Normally when I'm watching 2D content such as a Christopher Nolan movie the auto aspect function will change to fit 16:9 with black bars on the left and right on my scope screen. However, when I was watching Guardians in 3D the image wouldn't adjust and would spill out to the top and bottom of the screen. I'm guessing I have to change something in the auto aspect menu to trigger it so that it scales down to 16:9 for CIH. Thanks in advance.


----------



## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> I was wondering if anyone could help me with this issue. I was watching Guardians of the Galaxy in 3D earlier which has shifting aspect ratios (1.78:1, 2.35:1). Normally when I'm watching 2D content such as a Christopher Nolan movie the auto aspect function will change to fit 16:9 with black bars on the left and right on my scope screen. However, when I was watching Guardians in 3D the image wouldn't adjust and would spill out to the top and bottom of the screen. I'm guessing I have to change something in the auto aspect menu to trigger it so that it scales down to 16:9 for CIH. Thanks in advance.


Are you on a recent version? Auto aspect was broken for 3D for a long time.

I've not checked it recently though to see that it still works.


----------



## Des511

So is the Ruipro fibre optic cable still okay to use with the Lumagen?


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> Are you on a recent version? Auto aspect was broken for 3D for a long time.
> 
> I've not checked it recently though to see that it still works.


Great question. I haven't updated since April of last year. Not sure which version I'm on. Is there a specific firmware version I should download?


----------



## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> Great question. I haven't updated since April of last year. Not sure which version I'm on. Is there a specific firmware version I should download?


It was fixed in version 041120 in Feb this year, so that's why it won't be working! 
I'm on the last but one latest version of firmware from the public site, and it works well in my system, not on latest just because haven't got round to it. I'd recommend latest.

The calibration of some of the HDR controls has changed a bit though, so if you work with a calibrator you might want to discuss with them. If you deal with it all yourself, the good info is here in this thread somewhere, or perhaps in @giomania 's doc.


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> It was fixed in version 041120 in Feb this year, so that's why it won't be working!
> I'm on the last but one latest version of firmware from the public site, and it works well in my system, not on latest just because haven't got round to it. I'd recommend latest.
> 
> The calibration of some of the HDR controls has changed a bit though, so if you work with a calibrator you might want to discuss with them. If you deal with it all yourself, the good info is here in this thread somewhere, or perhaps in @giomania 's doc.


Thank you very much for the information. You've been very helpful. Have a wonderful day


----------



## Karl Maga

Des511 said:


> So is the Ruipro fibre optic cable still okay to use with the Lumagen?


Aye, I’ve been using it for over a year without issue. Mine is 15m long. My pj is JVC NX7.


----------



## edthomp

Karl Maga said:


> Aye, I’ve been using it for over a year without issue. Mine is 15m long. My pj is JVC NX7.


I too have been using the Ruipro 20m fiber cable with zero issues.


----------



## carpantata

Why do my Radiance Pro 4242 patterns look like this (incomplete) on my JVC DLA-Z1?












*What is its operation?*


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> It was fixed in version 041120 in Feb this year, so that's why it won't be working!
> I'm on the last but one latest version of firmware from the public site, and it works well in my system, not on latest just because haven't got round to it. I'd recommend latest.
> 
> The calibration of some of the HDR controls has changed a bit though, so if you work with a calibrator you might want to discuss with them. If you deal with it all yourself, the good info is here in this thread somewhere, or perhaps in @giomania 's doc.


Ok, so I just updated to latest firmware and still auto aspect is not working. I wonder what the issue may be. Regardless, thank you for your help.


----------



## jrp

carpantata said:


> Why do my Radiance Pro 4242 patterns look like this (incomplete) on my JVC DLA-Z1?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What is its operation?*


The pattern is the Reference black level PLUGE pattern. The picture (as I see it here) indicates the Optical black in the projector is correct. In other words it looks the way it should.

Load this pattern with the Adjustable mode. If it looks the same (it will if the Radiance Pro Black = 0) then the digital black is also correct.


----------



## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> Ok, so I just updated to latest firmware and still auto aspect is not working. I wonder what the issue may be. Regardless, thank you for your help.


I will check it out on my unit later. You say AA is working for you on 2D?


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> I will check it out on my unit later. You say AA is working for you on 2D?


Correct. AA is working on 2D, but unfortunately not on 3D.


----------



## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> Correct. AA is working on 2D, but unfortunately not on 3D.


I just checked on my unit, updated to latest.

AA does seem to detect 2.4 ratio well for 3D for me, but I note that it is very much more hesitant (to the point of appearing to be not working at all) in going from, say, 2.4 to 1.85; though pressing OK a few times on the UI to go through the info screens seems to make it click in, which is odd - it is like it pokes something. It's quite possible I missed this when I was testing the original fix - I only just noticed it on Black Panther which flips between the two ratios, and I recall checking T2 originally which is all 2.4.

In my system I have a top / bottom mask screen and have AA driving the electric masks to close down the wider ratios. How do you use AA in your system?

Anyway, I'll report it.


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> I just checked on my unit, updated to latest.
> 
> AA does seem to detect 2.4 ratio well for 3D for me, but I note that it is very much more hesitant (to the point of appearing to be not working at all) in going from, say, 2.4 to 1.85; though pressing OK a few times on the UI to go through the info screens seems to make it click in, which is odd - it is like it pokes something. It's quite possible I missed this when I was testing the original fix - I only just noticed it on Black Panther which flips between the two ratios, and I recall checking T2 originally which is all 2.4.
> 
> In my system I have a top / bottom mask screen and have AA driving the electric masks to close down the wider ratios. How do you use AA in your system?
> 
> Anyway, I'll report it.


Yes, This is the issue I am having. I have a 2.35:1 scope screen. I use the zoom method traditionally so that scope films fill my screen and then traditionally AA will scale down 1.85:1 content so that I have pillar boxed projected black bars on the left and right of the screen. So I'm running a CIH setup. In 2D whenever I'm watching, say Christopher Nolan films with changing aspect ratios this is what happens. But for 3D when I use zoom method for 2.35:1 and then it goes to 1.85:1, in my case Guardiand of The Galaxy 3D, the 1.85:1 is now projecting out of frame above and below.

In my setup I have left/right pillar box electric masking which I have tied to my Crestron remote for 1.85:1 content. So when I'm watching fixed 1.85:1 or 16:9 content I have masking on. But whenever I'm watching changing aspect ratio films I remove the masking and just let AA do its thing. Thank you again for your help.


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.
I know that the Radiance Pro power supply is switching power supply(12V 5A).
Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## loggeo

I am using a Keces P8. I haven't noticed any particular changes on video quality, but I find handy the info screen.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> I am using a Keces P8. I haven't noticed any particular changes on video quality, but I find handy the info screen.


Which aspect is handy - just knowing the power consumption?


----------



## FenceMan

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I know that the Radiance Pro power supply is switching power supply(12V 5A).
> Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
> Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
> Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?
> Thank you for your help and support.


Keces P8 absolutely lowered the noise floor for audio especially on my Lumagen. Also piece of mind that your expensive video processor isn't connected to potential doom by only a $10 chinese power supply.


----------



## Mike_WI

bobof said:


> Which aspect is handy - just knowing the power consumption?


I saw a thread on Head-Fi about Keces P8 that has some info.


----------



## bobof

FenceMan said:


> Keces P8 absolutely lowered the noise floor for audio especially on my Lumagen. Also piece of mind that your expensive video processor isn't connected to potential doom by only a $10 chinese power supply.


The supply that Lumagen provide is a cut above your suggestion - it is certified to medical standards. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that it is probably better documented than the Keces product...


----------



## FenceMan

bobof said:


> The supply that Lumagen provide is a cut above your suggestion - it is certified to medical standards. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that it is probably better documented than the Keces product...


You plug into that, I'll use the Keces.


----------



## *Harry*

Nattypol said:


> Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
> Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
> Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?


A year ago I'd measure the 12V input with my oscilloscope and it was w/o issue. In my opinion we got a very good power adapter and I do not think that a linear PS would have any benefit on digital processing. As linear supplies are uncommon these days, you hardly can find a very good old school 12V/5A (except laboratory PS devices) ... because good ones are massive and heavy.

What is your question based on exactly? Elimination of pixel problems or HDMI handshake problems?


----------



## FenceMan

bobof said:


> The supply that Lumagen provide is a cut above your suggestion - it is certified to medical standards. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that it is probably better documented than the Keces product...


In fairness my bad experiences (multiple) all came with DVDO power supplies which look physically similar to stock Lumagen. I can believe you if you tell me Lumagen is built better...


----------



## *Harry*

wow - I haven't heard of the Keces P8 yet ... here in Germany you can't get it below 670 EUR ... are you guys serious that this PS is no overkill for a video processor? Well, in terms of linear audio I would agree, but not in aspect regarding digital processing.


----------



## woofer

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I know that the Radiance Pro power supply is switching power supply(12V 5A).
> Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
> Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
> Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?
> Thank you for your help and support.


 I am using the "Uptone" Audio" JS-2 ...... JS-2 Linear Power Supply


----------



## jrp

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I know that the Radiance Pro power supply is switching power supply(12V 5A).
> Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
> Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
> Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?
> Thank you for your help and support.


People often ask me if a Linear Power Supply is a good idea. In short, yes, it can provide improvement. I have a few people who have switched to a Linear Power Supply and the feedback has been positive. 

As I have discussed, HDMI jitter, and the electrical noise in the HDMI signal and back to the mains, can affect audio quality, and in some cases video quality.

I have discussed that lower-jitter can reduce the bit-error-rate of an HDMI signal. Lower HDMI clock jitter will also mean the de-jitter circuits in the audio processor start with a cleaner signal and so can send a lower-jitter signal to the DAC's. Lower jitter at the DAC leads to lower distortion in the audio. This can be heard, but how much is system dependent.

The linear power supply will act as a noise buffer between the Radiance Pro's high speed digital electronics and the mains. This noise reduction can improve the wall power going to the power amplifiers, and there is the possibility the lower noise floor may improve audio.

The Linear power supply also provides a cleaner, lower electrical-noise-floor power to the Radiance Pro itself. Noise floor can directly affect output jitter to some degree. Also a lower electrical-noise-floor in the Radiance Pro may mean a lower-noise-floor on the HDMI output injected in the the audio-processor and the projector/TV. A lower electrical-noise-floor can mean an improvement in the audio signal-to-noise ratio. For video a lower electrical-noise-floor for an analog display technology (DiLA and LCOS are analog at the display level) can reduce background noise in the image.

Note that I use "can" and "may" and "potentially" for these comments. I do this since any improvement is system dependent. You may not hear or see any improvement, but you might. I have heard some improvement form a linear supply for audio, but this is a subtle improvement. If you want the absolute best audio, then I believe you will be happy spending the money on an excellent "audio quality" linear power supply for the Radiance Pro.

I mentioned there is a chance that you might see a video improvement. However, if you do it would be subtle, and once again you may not see any improvement.

I wish I could be more adamant you will hear and see an improvement. Unfortunately any improvement is system and viewer/listener dependent. For those who want the best audio and video, I think a linear power supply for the Pro is a good investment. Just understand your mileage may vary.

I plan to purchase a Keces P8 12 VDC at 8 Amp single output supply (KECES) as soon as they come back in stock, for my testing here. There are other brands of high end linear power supplies that could also suit this application.


----------



## Chris5

I use a Farad Super3 for audio, very good.


----------



## loggeo

bobof said:


> Which aspect is handy - just knowing the power consumption?


My original power supply burnt out. I also got a lot of drops. I decided to go with a purer solution of linear power and lower the noise floor.
I know it can be excessive, but I value my Lumagen Pro. That is not to say that anybody using a regular power supply cares less.
I was able to see what would happen to the power consumption when I had drops and how settings affect power drawing.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> I was able to see what would happen to the power consumption when I had drops and how settings affect power drawing.


Out of interest, what did you find? I'm interested to know the numbers for different settings. It's obviously not very high consuming device at any settings though if 5A 12V is sufficient.


----------



## giomania

I have an EquiTech balanced power electrical sub panel, but am guessing that doesn’t improve the stock switching power supply.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## loggeo

bobof said:


> Out of interest, what did you find? I'm interested to know the numbers for different settings. It's obviously not very high consuming device at any settings though if 5A 12V is sufficient.


I can't recall my Lumagen going over 3.2-3.3A tbh. But there is a difference when outputing 1080p and 2160p of about (less actually) than 1A.
What was interesting is when I had drops, consumption fell to about 1A and then would go back up to regular.
Anyway, you tell me the settings I can tell you the consumption.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> I can't recall my Lumagen going over 3.2-3.3A tbh. But there is a difference when outputing 1080p and 2160p of about (less actually) than 1A.
> What was interesting is when I had drops, consumption fell to about 1A and then would go back up to regular.
> Anyway, you tell me the settings I can tell you the consumption.


Cool, thanks. I guess when your dropouts were happening you were having a full reset through the HDMI chain causing processing to restart. Can see in some cases seeing the consumption could be pretty useful. (actually, at a much more detailed level, power analysis is often used to try and crack security systems as it can provide many clues about operation...!)


----------



## riddle

And whats this power supply? Lumagen Radiance 4444 / 4446 Pro PSU


----------



## *Harry*

Hi Jim:



jrp said:


> I have discussed that lower-jitter can reduce the bit-error-rate of an HDMI signal.


Is it possible to display the BER counter in the Radiance Pro info screen? Ideally refreshed every few seconds ...
That could help to narrow down HDMI cable/link, or as discussed now, relationships to "12V quality" issues.



jrp said:


> The linear power supply will act as a noise buffer between the Radiance Pro's high speed digital electronics and the mains. This noise reduction can improve the wall power going to the power amplifiers, and there is the possibility the lower noise floor may improve audio.
> 
> The Linear power supply also provides a cleaner, lower electrical-noise-floor power to the Radiance Pro itself. Noise floor can directly affect output jitter to some degree. Also a lower electrical-noise-floor in the Radiance Pro may mean a lower-noise-floor on the HDMI output injected in the the audio-processor and the projector/TV. A lower electrical-noise-floor can mean an improvement in the audio signal-to-noise ratio. For video a lower electrical-noise-floor for an analog display technology (DiLA and LCOS are analog at the display level) can reduce background noise in the image.


Complete understandable. I just have some doubts, that on seat position any real perceivable picture improvement will be given, if the Radiance Pro is the only one device in chain with a super clean linear PS, but all HDMI interfaces and electronic components inside the other units still being powered by its build-in switching power supplies.



jrp said:


> I plan to purchase a Keces P8 12 VDC at 8 Amp single output supply (KECES) as soon as they come back in stock, for my testing here. There are other brands of high end linear power supplies that could also suit this application.


Please share your findings with us, especially in terms of video.


----------



## audioguy

At the risk of starting a mud throwing contest, any comparisons, short of side by side, should be done where the viewer does not know what option they are viewing (eliminates expectation bias).


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> At the risk of starting a mud throwing contest, any comparisons, short of side by side, should be done where the viewer does not know what option they are viewing (eliminates expectation bias).


Spoilsport!


----------



## Mike_WI

audioguy said:


> At the risk of starting a mud throwing contest, any comparisons, short of side by side, should be done where the viewer does not know what option they are viewing (eliminates expectation bias).





bobof said:


> The supply that Lumagen provide is a cut above your suggestion - it is certified to medical standards. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that it is probably better documented than the Keces product...





*Harry* said:


> A year ago I'd measure the 12V input with my oscilloscope and it was w/o issue. In my opinion we got a very good power adapter and I do not think that a linear PS would have any benefit on digital processing. As linear supplies are uncommon these days, you hardly can find a very good old school 12V/5A (except laboratory PS devices) ... because good ones are massive and heavy.
> 
> What is your question based on exactly? Elimination of pixel problems or HDMI handshake problems?





jrp said:


> People often ask me if a Linear Power Supply is a good idea. In short, yes, it can provide improvement. I have a few people who have switched to a Linear Power Supply and the feedback has been positive.
> 
> As I have discussed, HDMI jitter, and the electrical noise in the HDMI signal and back to the mains, can affect audio quality, and in some cases video quality.
> 
> I have discussed that lower-jitter can reduce the bit-error-rate of an HDMI signal. Lower HDMI clock jitter will also mean the de-jitter circuits in the audio processor start with a cleaner signal and so can send a lower-jitter signal to the DAC's. Lower jitter at the DAC leads to lower distortion in the audio. This can be heard, but how much is system dependent.
> 
> The linear power supply will act as a noise buffer between the Radiance Pro's high speed digital electronics and the mains. This noise reduction can improve the wall power going to the power amplifiers, and there is the possibility the lower noise floor may improve audio.
> 
> The Linear power supply also provides a cleaner, lower electrical-noise-floor power to the Radiance Pro itself. Noise floor can directly affect output jitter to some degree. Also a lower electrical-noise-floor in the Radiance Pro may mean a lower-noise-floor on the HDMI output injected in the the audio-processor and the projector/TV. A lower electrical-noise-floor can mean an improvement in the audio signal-to-noise ratio. For video a lower electrical-noise-floor for an analog display technology (DiLA and LCOS are analog at the display level) can reduce background noise in the image.
> 
> Note that I use "can" and "may" and "potentially" for these comments. I do this since any improvement is system dependent. You may not hear or see any improvement, but you might. I have heard some improvement form a linear supply for audio, but this is a subtle improvement. If you want the absolute best audio, then I believe you will be happy spending the money on an excellent "audio quality" linear power supply for the Radiance Pro.
> 
> I mentioned there is a chance that you might see a video improvement. However, if you do it would be subtle, and once again you may not see any improvement.
> 
> I wish I could be more adamant you will hear and see an improvement. Unfortunately any improvement is system and viewer/listener dependent. For those who want the best audio and video, I think a linear power supply for the Pro is a good investment. Just understand your mileage may vary.
> 
> I plan to purchase a Keces P8 12 VDC at 8 Amp single output supply (KECES) as soon as they come back in stock, for my testing here. There are other brands of high end linear power supplies that could also suit this application.





riddle said:


> And whats this power supply? Lumagen Radiance 4444 / 4446 Pro PSU


Interesting especially (to me) the unexpected jrp positive response about power supplies.

Is there such a thing as a power supply noise generator?
If defined noise types could be used as input and compared that might be helpful to show the thresholds and video our audio changes such noise would impart.
Will watch this.

For my HT setup I had a whole house surge protector and then a Surge-X at the HT rack.
My prior Panamax UPS (mainly for projector) had battery die and I pulled out of the system.

I would consider a Lumagen matching rack sized power supply. But wouldn't want to overspend on it.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> Interesting especially (to me) the unexpected jrp positive response about power supplies.
> 
> Is there such a thing as a power supply noise generator? ...


I have always said that I believe a linear power supply could improve audio. This has not changed. Back in the 1080p days I was skeptical it would improve video. Now for 4k, while still somewhat skeptical about video, I believe there is the potential a better power supply could help video when the underlying display technology is analog (DiLA, LCOS, but not DLP). The improvement might not even be visible at viewing distance though. That is why I add it _may_ help. I do not want to discount it completely, and there may be a visible at viewing distance improvement. People need to test for themselves in their system.

There are noise injectors, but I think the time spent would not yield much. Choose a linear power supply. Then compare audio and video using the Radiance Pro digital power brick, versus the linear power supply, and judge for yourself. I can be pretty certain some will say "no difference" and some will say "there is a difference." I believe the people who say they hear/see a difference, and I believe the people who say they don't. It is after all system and listener/viewer dependent.


----------



## bobof

Mike_WI said:


> Is there such a thing as a power supply noise generator?
> If defined noise types could be used as input and compared that might be helpful to show the thresholds and video our audio changes such noise would impart.


These sort of things do exist, they are very expensive, but there is a further issue in that it doesn't stop there; the thing you need to measure is a few steps down from the thing that injects interruption or noise into the PSU, and the gear that could measure the HDMI (or even further downstream, DA output of a processor) with enough accuracy to pick up differences is also very expensive.
if you're wanting to get to the point of analysing the 18G HDMI at the wire level plus the impact on DA conversion you're probably into $100,000+ of T&M (test and measurement) gear.



Mike_WI said:


> I would consider a Lumagen matching rack sized power supply. But wouldn't want to overspend on it.


They're such niche product that you'll almost certainly be overspending by some definition. Maybe if you have an old 1U case, some time at a weekend and some electronics know-how it can be a nice DIY project for not mucho bucks spend, but if your time is valuable it's probably still mucho money in opportunity cost.


----------



## jrp

*Harry* said:


> Hi Jim:
> 
> Is it possible to display the BER counter in the Radiance Pro info screen?


No. Sorry.

Note that a BER counter for the Pro output would need to be in built into the projector/TV. Not simple to do and not going to happen.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> There are noise injectors, but I think the time spent would not yield much. Choose a linear power supply. Then compare audio and video using the Radiance Pro digital power brick, versus the linear power supply, and judge for yourself. I can be pretty certain some will say "no difference" and some will say "there is a difference."


The fundamental issue is, for those that say they can see a difference, is they are likely not doing blind A/B testing. Therefore, expectation bias is massively clouding the results of the comparison.


----------



## woofer

fatherom said:


> The fundamental issue is, for those that say they can see a difference, is they are likely not doing blind A/B testing. Therefore, expectation bias is massively clouding the results of the comparison.


For what its worth.....

I am one who will say i DO see a *visual *difference.

I am *"Extremely"* sensitive to any extraneous image "noise" .....there are clips/scenes i have looked at hundreds of times doing comparisons with the Lumagen, madVR Envy and madVR HTPC. 
When i installed the Up-Tone Audio LPS with my Lumagen, from my experience i have no doubt it improved not only the Audio but the Video.....


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> No. Sorry.
> 
> Note that a BER counter for the Pro output would need to be in built into the projector/TV. Not simple to do and not going to happen.


Got it; the HDMI protocol does not contain any kind of link quality report backwards to the source unit ...


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> At the risk of starting a mud throwing contest, any comparisons, short of side by side, should be done where the viewer does not know what option they are viewing (eliminates expectation bias).


I agree.

You really need to disconnect the setup not in use (to prevent noise in the non-active setup affecting the active setup), and so an immediate comparison is not easy to do.

I find this delay in the comparison is not a problem for audio. The couple minutes it takes to switch the configuration and listen seems to not dim my memory of the sound for comparison. As a "2-channel guy" I did a lot of this back in my 2-channel days.

However, in looking for differences in video I find it difficult to say for sure if one image seen a couple minutes prior is better/worse than the one I am viewing. As always this viewing must be at viewing distance on active content or the results are moot.


----------



## MDesigns

woofer said:


> For what its worth.....
> 
> I am one who will say i DO see a *visual *difference.
> 
> I am *"Extremely"* sensitive to any extraneous image "noise" .....there are clips/scenes i have looked at hundreds of times doing comparisons with the Lumagen, madVR Envy and madVR HTPC.
> When i installed the Up-Tone Audio LPS with my Lumagen, from my experience i have no doubt it improved not only the Audio but the Video.....


I would love to see a comparison, where some test material is inputted to lumagen, then the output signal is analyzed and recorded. Then change the PSU(or hdmi cable for example), and compare the results. Comparing the results should be easy, since the pixel values are all digital and differences should be seen. I believe @madshi did something similar when testing an input card.


----------



## nbynw

woofer said:


> For what its worth.....
> 
> I am one who will say i DO see a *visual *difference.
> 
> I am *"Extremely"* sensitive to any extraneous image "noise" .....there are clips/scenes i have looked at hundreds of times doing comparisons with the Lumagen, madVR Envy and madVR HTPC.
> When i installed the Up-Tone Audio LPS with my Lumagen, from my experience i have no doubt it improved not only the Audio but the Video.....


What DC cable is required for the Lumagen RP? There are 5 cable choices with the JS-2.


----------



## bobof

MDesigns said:


> I would love to see a comparison, where some test material is inputted to lumagen, then the output signal is analyzed and recorded. Then change the PSU(or hdmi cable for example), and compare the results. Comparing the results should be easy, since the pixel values are all digital and differences should be seen. I believe @madshi did something similar when testing an input card.


Unfortunately this is an overly simplistic, commonly held view of the world, that digital means no difference in outcome is possible if only you can clock back in the same bits, for you cannot enjoy those digital signals as-is. This generally hold true in computer science where things stay digital, and the education of the masses in such technology has led them to a welcome yet incomplete understand of "Digital". Until you get a digital interface card for your brain (coming in 2021 courtesy of COVID and 5G perhaps?! joke everyone) you are reliant on devices converting them to analogue to enjoy them with your senses, and the devices that perform such conversion often care about more than just the bit of data. They often care about exactly when that bit of data arrives relative to other bits; the result of this is that you can have two signals which each have zero data loss, but produce quite different results through a given DA converter. The very best receiver equipment is able to attenuate the effects of this jitter to the point where it isn't of relevance for the conversion, though that comes at cost and complexity and may not be possible in some particular piece of equipment you particularly like. 

In audio conversion the effects of this are very well known and quite easily measured. You can read about some of the techniques here:
A Case of the Jitters. Full disclosure, in my day job I do some work for Prism Sound, whose engineer Julian Dunn (well before my time there) developed the J-test signal commonly used in audio testing for jitter rejection capabilities. These are peer-reviewed techniques employed throughout the industry.

It is reasonable to assume similar issues may exist in video, where pixel data has to be converted to photons ultimately. Though unfortunately I'm unaware of attempts to quantify such effects. While audio presents a relatively "simply" attacked problem for measurement (still a life's work for many) - you can measure pretty much the analogue waveform you will ultimately experience in your ear. There isn't a standard interface to the panels that has a good correlation to how we see. So you're a few more steps removed from the physical experience in what you can measure. Such a thing doesn't exist in the commercial world in this form, and would be a work of academic interest I think. As an alternative approach, on an HDMI signal, using a sufficiently high bandwidth measurement setup you could perhaps, for instance, measure the differences resulting in an HDMI output from various changes in the signal chain (including PSUs); but you'd have to infer that those differences caused visible issues. 

You might be able to come up with some whizz-bang way of detecting and quantifying these matters (FFT analysis of high speed, high res images come to mind, for example). Or perhaps if you believe you can see the differences, you can submit yourself to A-B-X testing organised by someone else (most golden ears and eyes dislike  ), prove your ability to discern the differences between gear at at a statistically significant level, and then become a "golden eyes".

Note that the above all assumes you have signals that are good enough that they are perfectly recovered in the digital sense. There are some other approaches that can be interesting - such as using a setup that "barely" works (or even better, "only just doesn't work"), and then measuring whether or not changes made improve or worsen performance. This can be a lowtech way of inferring relative robustness differences in receivers (or quality of transmitters). And if your system is already bad enough that you experience frequent breaks in sync that are frequent enough for you to be able to enumerate and establish a rate of failure, then potentially you might have a system where you can infer benefit of some change of equipment just by virtue of it breaking less...


----------



## woofer

nbynw said:


> What DC cable is required for the Lumagen RP? There are 5 cable choices with the JS-2.


*The Lumagen uses the 5.5mm x2.1mm ( BLACK) connector.*


----------



## Sittler27

jrp said:


> The pattern is the Reference black level PLUGE pattern. The picture (as I see it here) indicates the Optical black in the projector is correct. In other words it looks the way it should.
> 
> Load this pattern with the Adjustable mode. If it looks the same (it will if the Radiance Pro Black = 0) then the digital black is also correct.


How is this pattern actually used to set the Brightness level on the display? Of the bars running vertically in the centre, are we to adjust Brightness so that we can no longer see the left most bar?

How are you determining that it looks the way it should?

And similarly, is the 100 IRE window pattern in the reference menu on the Lumagen what we should be using to measure peak white (with meter)? 

Or is it better to use a pattern disk fed from a player source running through the Lumagen?


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> How is this pattern actually used to set the Brightness level on the display? Of the bars running vertically in the centre, are we to adjust Brightness so that we can no longer see the left most bar?
> 
> How are you determining that it looks the way it should?
> 
> And similarly, is the 100 IRE window pattern in the reference menu on the Lumagen what we should be using to measure peak white (with meter)?
> 
> Or is it better to use a pattern disk fed from a player source running through the Lumagen?


There is some description of the use of these patterns here:


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0002_GamutCalibration_081413.pdf


And


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0005_UsingTestPatterns_112013.pdf



Both docs are in the tech tips section of the website.


Lumagen


----------



## MDesigns

bobof said:


> Unfortunately this is an overly simplistic, commonly held view of the world, that digital means no difference in outcome is possible if only you can clock back in the same bits, for you cannot enjoy those digital signals as-is. This generally hold true in computer science where things stay digital, and the education of the masses in such technology has led them to a welcome yet incomplete understand of "Digital". Until you get a digital interface card for your brain (coming in 2021 courtesy of COVID and 5G perhaps?! joke everyone) you are reliant on devices converting them to analogue to enjoy them with your senses, and the devices that perform such conversion often care about more than just the bit of data. They often care about exactly when that bit of data arrives relative to other bits; the result of this is that you can have two signals which each have zero data loss, but produce quite different results through a given DA converter. The very best receiver equipment is able to attenuate the effects of this jitter to the point where it isn't of relevance for the conversion, though that comes at cost and complexity and may not be possible in some particular piece of equipment you particularly like.
> 
> In audio conversion the effects of this are very well known and quite easily measured. You can read about some of the techniques here:
> A Case of the Jitters. Full disclosure, in my day job I do some work for Prism Sound, whose engineer Julian Dunn (well before my time there) developed the J-test signal commonly used in audio testing for jitter rejection capabilities. These are peer-reviewed techniques employed throughout the industry.
> 
> It is reasonable to assume similar issues may exist in video, where pixel data has to be converted to photons ultimately. Though unfortunately I'm unaware of attempts to quantify such effects. While audio presents a relatively "simply" attacked problem for measurement (still a life's work for many) - you can measure pretty much the analogue waveform you will ultimately experience in your ear. There isn't a standard interface to the panels that has a good correlation to how we see. So you're a few more steps removed from the physical experience in what you can measure. Such a thing doesn't exist in the commercial world in this form, and would be a work of academic interest I think. As an alternative approach, on an HDMI signal, using a sufficiently high bandwidth measurement setup you could perhaps, for instance, measure the differences resulting in an HDMI output from various changes in the signal chain (including PSUs); but you'd have to infer that those differences caused visible issues.
> 
> You might be able to come up with some whizz-bang way of detecting and quantifying these matters (FFT analysis of high speed, high res images come to mind, for example). Or perhaps if you believe you can see the differences, you can submit yourself to A-B-X testing organised by someone else (most golden ears and eyes dislike  ), prove your ability to discern the differences between gear at at a statistically significant level, and then become a "golden eyes".
> 
> Note that the above all assumes you have signals that are good enough that they are perfectly recovered in the digital sense. There are some other approaches that can be interesting - such as using a setup that "barely" works (or even better, "only just doesn't work"), and then measuring whether or not changes made improve or worsen performance. This can be a lowtech way of inferring relative robustness differences in receivers (or quality of transmitters). And if your system is already bad enough that you experience frequent breaks in sync that are frequent enough for you to be able to enumerate and establish a rate of failure, then potentially you might have a system where you can infer benefit of some change of equipment just by virtue of it breaking less...


I guess I fall into that overly simplistic computer science category and really know nothing about this compared to you  Okay, so it comes down to differences and handling the signal in the receiving end, ie. DA converters and displays. So if we use a test device that can not see any differences, some displays/da converters can still get different results. Interesting, I get it now! Sound's like a nice study for someone to figure out what kind of visible issues there might be.


----------



## bobof

MDesigns said:


> I guess I fall into that overly simplistic computer science category and really know nothing about this compared to you  Okay, so it comes down to differences and handling the signal in the receiving end, ie. DA converters and displays. So if we use a test device that can not see any differences, some displays/da converters can still get different results. Interesting, I get it now! Sound's like a nice study for someone to figure out what kind of visible issues there might be.


There's another good overview description of the issues ref: audio on it here:








What is Jitter in Audio. Sound Quality Issues [Explaned]


Jitter is a time distortion of a digital audio signal. It happens during record or playback due to clock deviation. More than one digital audio system owner worries about it. Other people consider the digital audio jitter issue as a myth, that is inaudible. Read about reasons, estimation...




samplerateconverter.com




You can see that in pro audio jitter is considered a significant problem, as the jitter at the recording stage is baked-into the digital recording forever.

This of course is all just relative to matters of jitter and how it impacts audio. Whether or not a change in PSU in an HDMI video processor can result in differences in recovered clock jitter that are measurable in a piece of connected audio equipment - well, you'd have to measure that, i'm never convinced until it's measured (or ABX'd). I'm certainly not saying this is proven - I'm unaware that anyone has hooked up a Linear PSU to a Lumagen, played something like J-test through it and shown measureable reduction in effects on a connected piece of audio equipment. 

Issues may not of course be limited to the effects of jitter - it's possible that switching noise from a PSU might couple into the HDMI output, and then might couple into the analogue hardware in an audio processor. Again though, without test and measurement, these are all just "mights". 

For what it's worth; for video, while I think it almost certainly would be measureable if you looked hard enough (most things are), I'm certainly not altogether sure this would cross the threshold of being visible to the eye.. Would need the ABX testing above to see if you were crossing a threshold into visibility.

Unfortunately the testing seldom happens


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> There is some description of the use of these patterns here:
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0002_GamutCalibration_081413.pdf
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0005_UsingTestPatterns_112013.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Both docs are in the tech tips section of the website.
> 
> 
> Lumagen


Thanks, much appreciated.

Another question/issue:
I have a StudioTek 130 G4 Wallscreen 2.5 in 2.41:1 aspect, an NX9 and a DCR.
My dealer set it up to merge 2.35 and 2.4 aspects together.

When I play 2.4 movies (The Hobbit Trilogy, The Matrix, etc.), my sides are aligned tight with the side bezels (can't zoom tighter). but I have relatively quite a bit of overscan on the top/bottom.
I understand this to be normal, but I wonder if there is any way to correct it?

I've tried re-tweaking my DCR's tilt, but it doesn't seem to shorten the height of the image.
I only notice it when I game, as I can't read some of the game's graphics along the bottom due to the overscan.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> I have a StudioTek 130 G4 Wallscreen 2.5 in 2.41:1 aspect, an NX9 and a DCR.
> My dealer set it up to merge 2.35 and 2.4 aspects together.


Sorry, I don't have any DCR experience, but there are other owners here, maybe they can help.


----------



## 187crew003

what? been over a month since a FW update? slackers lmao im kidding of course. just noticed they were monthly since like august.

Loving mine!


----------



## Mike Garrett

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks, much appreciated.
> 
> Another question/issue:
> I have a StudioTek 130 G4 Wallscreen 2.5 in 2.41:1 aspect, an NX9 and a DCR.
> My dealer set it up to merge 2.35 and 2.4 aspects together.
> 
> When I play 2.4 movies (The Hobbit Trilogy, The Matrix, etc.), my sides are aligned tight with the side bezels (can't zoom tighter). but I have relatively quite a bit of overscan on the top/bottom.
> I understand this to be normal, but I wonder if there is any way to correct it?
> 
> I've tried re-tweaking my DCR's tilt, but it doesn't seem to shorten the height of the image.
> I only notice it when I game, as I can't read some of the game's graphics along the bottom due to the overscan.


Set it up so that the top has more overscan and the bottom has less.


----------



## Surge2018

fatherom said:


> Yeah, Jim and I tried that over the phone one time and it was a no-go. I had tons of handshake issues going from my source devices, to the Denon, and then a single output into the Lumagen. The video would lock on sometimes, other times it wouldn't unless I turned various devices off and on. The Denon was acting super flaky. If it hadn't, I probably would've stuck with that configuration.


I initially had it setup like this with my Denon 8500, and it wasn’t great. In addition to handshake issues, the picture quality noticeably improved when the Lumagen was connected directly to the projector (and all processing was disabled on the Denon 8500).


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> Fair enough! Wish me luck, because (other than losing out on Yamaha's venue specific DSPs for music) the X6700H would appear to check all of the necessary boxes.


It definitely worked with my Denon 8500 in between the Lumagen and the Projector, I just had to frequently switch the Denon to another input, and then back to the Lumagen input whenever the picture mode would change. This gets annoying, fast.
There was also a slight but noticeable image quality degradation with the 8500 in the chain... which makes sense.


----------



## Surge2018

Clark Burk said:


> I remember reading that some owners of the Denon had some luck with dropouts by switching inputs around. It seemed the farther away the HDMI input was from the output the weaker the signal due to wiring issues. I have no idea if this is true or not but it had to due with longer wire tracers connecting to the HDMI chip. It's worth a try if you already have the Denon.


Denon recommends in the owners manual, at least for the 8500, to use the HDMI input closest to the output. So that’s HDMI 7 (or whatever the highest number is) as the input. Not sure if this would alleviate drop-outs, but it minimizes jitter. I use this input on the 8500 and don’t have any audio drop-outs. I’m sending audio only to the Denon from the Lumagen.


----------



## Surge2018

There is a DTM problem with certain content from Apple TV+, at least when viewed on Apple TV 4K. The image is very dark, and you can see that DTM is varying the image brightness within a scene at times. Examples are On the Rocks, with Bill Murray, and Amazing Stories (at least Episode 1), and Truth be Told. Not sure if this is due to how Apple TV handles Dolby Vision.
Apple TV+ has by far the best streaming audio and picture quality of Amazon, Netflix, HBO and iTunes, so not sure what’s going on.
I have to reduce my MaxLight by ~50% (from 1070 to around 600) and reduce DynPad from 5 to 2, to get the brightness to decent levels, and even then it’s not great — something “odd” is going on with the DTM.
Perhaps Jim or Kris can take a look at this content and let us know? Thanks


----------



## jbrinegar

Surge2018 said:


> There is a DTM problem with certain content from Apple TV+, at least when viewed on Apple TV 4K. The image is very dark, and you can see that DTM is varying the image brightness within a scene at times. Examples are On the Rocks, with Bill Murray, and Amazing Stories (at least Episode 1), and Truth be Told. Not sure if this is due to how Apple TV handles Dolby Vision.
> Apple TV+ has by far the best streaming audio and picture quality of Amazon, Netflix, HBO and iTunes, so not sure what’s going on.
> I have to reduce my MaxLight by ~50% (from 1070 to around 600) and reduce DynPad from 5 to 2, to get the brightness to decent levels, and even then it’s not great — something “odd” is going on with the DTM.
> Perhaps Jim or Kris can take a look at this content and let us know? Thanks


Any specific scenes I can double check for you? I watched both shows and didn’t notice any issues. I’m using a multiplier of 6 for my global max light. (70 nits x 6=420 global max light). I’m using dyn pad 4.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Surge2018 said:


> There is a DTM problem with certain content from Apple TV+, at least when viewed on Apple TV 4K. The image is very dark, and you can see that DTM is varying the image brightness within a scene at times. Examples are On the Rocks, with Bill Murray, and Amazing Stories (at least Episode 1), and Truth be Told. Not sure if this is due to how Apple TV handles Dolby Vision.
> Apple TV+ has by far the best streaming audio and picture quality of Amazon, Netflix, HBO and iTunes, so not sure what’s going on.
> I have to reduce my MaxLight by ~50% (from 1070 to around 600) and reduce DynPad from 5 to 2, to get the brightness to decent levels, and even then it’s not great — something “odd” is going on with the DTM.
> Perhaps Jim or Kris can take a look at this content and let us know? Thanks


Thanks! Now I am not alone. Use IT part 2 to serve as a really good example of that (purchased from iTunes) as well as The Equalizer (also an iTunes purchase). The overall picture is so dark and dull and lost of a lot of details that I have never ever been close to on UHD discs. I have compared scenes with my TV that supprt Dolby Vision and the picture is brighter with more details there. I can give some scene examples too if needed.

The thing is: since the latest firmware HDR has a new meaning to me. Not overall very much darker compared to SDR that was my impression before (alos after having JVC NX5 for more than 6 months before). So all in all very pleased with the DTM from Lumagen, a new HDR world so to speak. The only problem is the DV content from ATV that is converted into HDR10 and the processed by Lumagen. Some of the content - and a fex examples that I have mentioned - is exteremly dark. I can understand the intent and all that - but that should not include loss of details (as I can cleary see when comparing with the same movei however then in DV on my TV).


----------



## Ash Sharma

PeterLarsson said:


> The only problem is the DV content from ATV that is converted into HDR10 and the processed by Lumagen. Some of the content - and a fex examples that I have mentioned - is exteremly dark. I can understand the intent and all that - but that should not include loss of details (as I can cleary see when comparing with the same movei however then in DV on my TV).


I recommend get a Roku Ultra as a second streamer... at least the previous version is not DV so uses HDR10


----------



## Mike Garrett

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks! Now I am not alone. Use IT part 2 to serve as a really good example of that (purchased from iTunes) as well as The Equalizer (also an iTunes purchase). The overall picture is so dark and dull and lost of a lot of details that I have never ever been close to on UHD discs. I have compared scenes with my TV that supprt Dolby Vision and the picture is brighter with more details there. I can give some scene examples too if needed.
> 
> The thing is: since the latest firmware HDR has a new meaning to me. Not overall very much darker compared to SDR that was my impression before (alos after having JVC NX5 for more than 6 months before). So all in all very pleased with the DTM from Lumagen, a new HDR world so to speak. The only problem is the DV content from ATV that is converted into HDR10 and the processed by Lumagen. Some of the content - and a fex examples that I have mentioned - is exteremly dark. I can understand the intent and all that - but that should not include loss of details (as I can cleary see when comparing with the same movei however then in DV on my TV).


If the streaming version looked way darker than the UHD disc, then it is not the projector. Also if set up properly, the JVC is not very far off from the Lumagen DTM, until you hit a tough scene. In other words, for 90% to 95% of the movie, you would not see much difference.


----------



## *Harry*

bobof said:


> I'm certainly not saying this is proven - I'm unaware that anyone has hooked up a Linear PSU to a Lumagen, played something like J-test through it and shown measureable reduction in effects on a connected piece of audio equipment.
> 
> Issues may not of course be limited to the effects of jitter - it's possible that switching noise from a PSU might couple into the HDMI output, and then might couple into the analogue hardware in an audio processor. Again though, without test and measurement, these are all just "mights".
> 
> For what it's worth; for video, while I think it almost certainly would be measureable if you looked hard enough (most things are), I'm certainly not altogether sure this would cross the threshold of being visible to the eye.. Would need the ABX testing above to see if you were crossing a threshold into visibility.
> 
> Unfortunately the testing seldom happens


Problem: All of these special linear power supplies look very expensive and no one knows, if the expected impovement will occur in the own home theater setup.

If someone wants to quickly find out, if such a "non-switching" power supply is voodoo, or really could have advantages in his own setup, just grab a fully charged 12V car battery and use it as power supply. There is no better "clean" DC power source than a battery. But since the Radiance Pro's 12V input range is unknown and fully charged batteries have more than 13V, simply connect two high-current diodes in series (e.g. P1000 ) to achieve a voltage drop close to 12V

Any 55Ah ... 60Ah battery should last many hours - time enough to check or measure for audio / video "jitter". Or you just sit down and listen to music / watch a film ... but don't forget to put it back in your car ... recharged ...

😄


----------



## PeterLarsson

Mike Garrett said:


> If the streaming version looked way darker than the UHD disc, then it is not the projector. Also if set up properly, the JVC is not very far off from the Lumagen DTM, until you hit a tough scene. In other words, for 90% to 95% of the movie, you would not see much difference.


Thanks for your answer, but I really dont agree. I have had a JVC NX5 for almsot 8 months and now a Sony VW790. NX5 was in general the best solution for DTM, buit not always comepared to Sony VW790, but i my opinion doesnt stand a chance against Lumagen. As I have told before, my expereince with HDR have up to the date of starting to use Lumagen been that the pictire overall is much darker and lack of details in dark areas. That is not my impression anymore (except for some material on ATV). So I think it is quite a substansial difference between JVC and Lumagen DTM. But no ppoint on arguing about that, most important one is happy with its solution  and I am not right now with content streamed form ATV.


----------



## Mark Burton

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks for your answer, but I really dont agree. I have had a JVC NX5 for almsot 8 months and now a Sony VW790. NX5 was in general the best solution for DTM, buit not always comepared to Sony VW790, but i my opinion doesnt stand a chance against Lumagen. As I have told before, my expereince with HDR have up to the date of starting to use Lumagen been that the pictire overall is much darker and lack of details in dark areas. That is not my impression anymore (except for some material on ATV). So I think it is quite a substansial difference between JVC and Lumagen DTM. But no ppoint on arguing about that, most important one is happy with its solution  and I am not right now with content streamed form ATV.


Hi Peter, if you give me some examples of some “free stuff” on appleTV that you are struggling with, I’ll check mine as I have a Sony 760.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Mark Burton said:


> Hi Peter, if you give me some examples of some “free stuff” on appleTV that you are struggling with, I’ll check mine as I have a Sony 760.


The two examples I brought up yesterday is unfortunately not for free since it is purchased movies from iTunes: IT part II and The Equalizer (1)


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks for your answer, but I really dont agree. I have had a JVC NX5 for almsot 8 months and now a Sony VW790. NX5 was in general the best solution for DTM, buit not always comepared to Sony VW790, but i my opinion doesnt stand a chance against Lumagen. As I have told before, my expereince with HDR have up to the date of starting to use Lumagen been that the pictire overall is much darker and lack of details in dark areas. That is not my impression anymore (except for some material on ATV). So I think it is quite a substansial difference between JVC and Lumagen DTM. But no ppoint on arguing about that, most important one is happy with its solution  and I am not right now with content streamed form ATV.


I'm not sure if it will help or shed any light, might just be a waste of your time; if you want to look into it there re a couple of things to bear in mind maybe.

The AppleTV with Dolby vision outputs dumb metatdata and converts internally in the AppleTV to HDR10. There was a time when a lot of DV was being converted to HDR10 with metadata that would change every 30s or 5m05s, which would cause some problems for the Lumagen (jumping luminance and audio drops). In recent times I think I've seen some titles just have fixed 10000 nit metadata or 4000 nit, even though I guess they never get near that.

The Lumagen does pay some attention for something to the metadata, I'm not sure exactly what but it at least seems to impact the clipping point on some test images. I could see some logic that an unusually high metadata might impact brightness, but I don't know enough about the internals.

If you wanted to try and work out a bit more what is going on, you might try looking at what the metadata would appear to be set to (you can do this by pressing OK on the Lumagen remote while a title is playing, until you get to the screen with MaxCLL info) and making note of whether you see any difference for the bright vs dull content (I assume you have content in both camps on your system?)

There are some settings in the HDR settings for the input that allow you to override the metadata, you might play with that to see if it improves things for you.

The other thing that springs to mind as being worth checking is that some of the HDR settings in the Lumagen are per-input, so if you set up your HDR on one device and then switched to AppleTV, you might not be using the same settings.

And of course, it is also possible the content is just mastered badly...

As I say, the above is maybe interesting depending on how you're wired, or maybe just frustrating. I'm sure others will be interested in what you find if you do note any patterns between content / input you think is too dark, settings, reported data, etc.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Great input @bobof always!

I am aware of that one can set different settings per input for HDR, but not 100% so much aware of what the different settings really mean. I understand the the ratio is basically increase the dark areas a bit and that I right now set to 1,5x of my nits - however on the output side. Also the Dynpad I understand is the higher value the more dynamics in a specific given scene, Also that set for teh output.

I also have the generic value of MaxCall 4000.

I must admit that the Lumagen user manual is not at all clear on how the different setting affect or impact the picture especially not the service mode. So when one find a problem like now ith ATV I dont really understand how to use the knobs to get it right if I put it like that.

But at the same time: UHD discs look better than never. I do not feel the urge to do anything there so that is good


----------



## docrog

I know that this may sound like sacrilege, but is it possible for to *temporarily* make use of the Radiance Pro purely for its upscaling and edge enhancement capabilities, bypassing/disabling any DTM or color/gray scale processing?


----------



## Mike Garrett

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks for your answer, but I really dont agree. I have had a JVC NX5 for almsot 8 months and now a Sony VW790. NX5 was in general the best solution for DTM, buit not always comepared to Sony VW790, but i my opinion doesnt stand a chance against Lumagen. As I have told before, my expereince with HDR have up to the date of starting to use Lumagen been that the pictire overall is much darker and lack of details in dark areas. That is not my impression anymore (except for some material on ATV). So I think it is quite a substansial difference between JVC and Lumagen DTM. But no ppoint on arguing about that, most important one is happy with its solution  and I am not right now with content streamed form ATV.


Your opinion is different than Kris Deerings and I believe he knows how to set up a projector to get the best out of it. Same for the Lumagen. Not saying that the Lumagen is not better, because it is.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I am aware of that one can set different settings per input for HDR, but not 100% so much aware of what the different settings really mean. I understand the the ratio is basically increase the dark areas a bit and that I right now set to 1,5x of my nits - however on the output side. Also the Dynpad I understand is the higher value the more dynamics in a specific given scene, Also that set for teh output.


I have my DML set to be around 5.5-6x measured peak nits, and then my ratio set to indicate about 2x the measured peak nits. I think that is more or less in line with recommendations. I'm not quite sure off the top of my head what 1.5x would do for ratio. I have around 100nits on screen. 
I don't think I recall finding my image too dark; though there is some content that seems to be very "murky" in look. I'm trying to remember what was the last thing I saw that stood out as not being great; but I flipped to watching it in HDR10 via the Shield and didn't think it was any better, so just ended up thinking it was a bad bit of content.
I can't recall seeing it, but perhaps if you post *all* the details of how you have your image set up and Lumagen settings, how many on screen peak nits you actually measure, etc and some timestamps in particular titles you might get some more useful info back. 



PeterLarsson said:


> i also have the generic value of MaxCall 4000.


Do you mean the setting, or some piece of content reporting this on the info screen?
I >think< that the UI setting for this only comes into play if there is no metadata at all from the player, unless you change the option alongside it to make it always use the value instead of the player metadata. I can't remember the exact names of the options at the mo as I'm not at home in front of it.

I'd be interested to try a scene or two that you suggest and see what my setup looks like. I'm by no means saying mine is 100% either in all respects - I'm just a budding amateur - but I'm generally satisfied except for the odd thing I'm pretty sure is baked into the content.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I know that this may sound like sacrilege, but is it possible for to *temporarily* make use of the Radiance Pro purely for its upscaling and edge enhancement capabilities, bypassing/disabling any DTM or color/gray scale processing?


You've got several memories, if you haven't committed all of them to other functions you could set one memory up to not perform any colour processing. You'd need to configure a CMS appropriately. You could then switch memories to go between Lumagen DTM with SDR out and the HDR10 data passed through so the projector would have to do TM before display.


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> I have my DML set to be around 5.5-6x measured peak nits, and then my ratio set to indicate about 2x the measured peak nits. I think that is more or less in line with recommendations. I'm not quite sure off the top of my head what 1.5x would do for ratio. I have around 100nits on screen.
> I don't think I recall finding my image too dark; though there is some content that seems to be very "murky" in look. I'm trying to remember what was the last thing I saw that stood out as not being great; but I flipped to watching it in HDR10 via the Shield and didn't think it was any better, so just ended up thinking it was a bad bit of content.
> I can't recall seeing it, but perhaps if you post *all* the details of how you have your image set up and Lumagen settings, how many on screen peak nits you actually measure, etc and some timestamps in particular titles you might get some more useful info back.
> 
> 
> Do you mean the setting, or some piece of content reporting this on the info screen?
> I >think< that the UI setting for this only comes into play if there is no metadata at all from the player, unless you change the option alongside it to make it always use the value instead of the player metadata. I can't remember the exact names of the options at the mo as I'm not at home in front of it.
> 
> I'd be interested to try a scene or two that you suggest and see what my setup looks like. I'm by no means saying mine is 100% either in all respects - I'm just a budding amateur - but I'm generally satisfied except for the odd thing I'm pretty sure is baked into the content.


Perfect - I actually accomodated the lates suggestions from Jim in the latest firmware, but I have not tried to have separate seetings for different inputs, I wil tru and see if the ATV DTM improves



Mike Garrett said:


> Your opinion is different than Kris Deerings and I believe he knows how to set up a projector to get the best out of it. Same for the Lumagen. Not saying that the Lumagen is not better, because it is.


Well I had my JVC NX5 professionally calibrated for eight months, and of course the leap between NX5 and VW790 is quite big, and NX5 was nativley better than VW790 on DTM, but I am a bit surprised to hear that JVCs DTM is close to Lumagens. But of coursde Kris is entitled to that view and perpsective as well as I am for mine .


----------



## Ironman1718

Hello all,

I'm trying to upload the new firmware. But my USB connection says driver out of date. The right-click update driver does not work. Code 28... Any ideas?


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> You've got several memories, if you haven't committed all of them to other functions you could set one memory up to not perform any colour processing. You'd need to configure a CMS appropriately. You could then switch memories to go between Lumagen DTM with SDR out and the HDR10 data passed through so the projector would have to do TM before display.


Thanks, as always, for your response. However, your solution "cookbook" is WAY above my paygrade since all memories (etc.) were set up professionally. Having recently changed the bulb/lamp assembly, I'd prefer that my upcoming PJ calibrator NOT disturb the previous RP calibration which was performed by another professional. I plan to make temporary use of the DTM and HDR/SDR calibrations in the NX7 until the original RP calibrator can come to my home at some point in the future. I'm able to completely cut the RP out of the video chain, but I would truly prefer to make use of the RP's excellent 1080p -> UHD upscaling and other edge enhancement capabilities.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks, as always, for your response. However, your solution "cookbook" is WAY above my paygrade since all memories (etc.) were set up professionally. Having recently changed the bulb/lampo assembly, I'd prefer that my upcoming PJ calibrator NOT disturb the previous RP calibration which was performed by another professional. I plan to make temporary use of the DTM and HDR/SDR calibrations in the NX7 until the original RP calibrator can come to my home at some point in the future. I'm able to completely cut the RP out of the video chain, but I would truly prefer to make use of the RP's excellent 1080p -> UHD upscaling and other edge enhancement capabilities.


Sorry, you lost my simple brain at the second calibrator! Monkey have meter monkey point at screen over here !

It's very hard to advise on anything settings related if there are professionals involved as there are many ways your system could be set up, and unfortunately a lot of the time when talking to people who have the unit calibrated they may not fully know themselves - so it's even more dangerous...

It often sounds like a cop-out when the words "best talk to your calibrator" come out of my mouth, but you know what's coming next...  Not sure which one you need to talk to though!


----------



## Mike_WI

Applemike68 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'm trying to upload the new firmware. But my USB connection says driver out of date. The right-click update driver does not work. Code 28... Any ideas?


Do you mean:
*120420- Posted 121420 Fix for the new ZY521 rs232 command added in 120320 update, use 'H' or 'N' for sensitivity. Bugfix for changing styles with memories sometimes causing an incorrect change in the colorspace gamut convert setting. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at support@lumagen.com .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.*


----------



## dlinsley

Applemike68 said:


> I'm trying to upload the new firmware. But my USB connection says driver out of date. The right-click update driver does not work. Code 28... Any ideas?


Did you select the "Search automatically for drivers" option after selecting Update Driver? If it can't find them, try downloading the drivers from Virtual COM Port Drivers (ftdichip.com).

(Presuming the Radiance is out of standby. I'm not sure if the USB is enabled when in standby)


----------



## CP850-CLED

semi-related post

I have a client that has a lumagen wIth a Barco 4K 3P projector and loves it.

Now in his bedroom, he has a JVC nx7 mounted behind this huge removable wood panel, the beam goes through a small letter-box slot, removing this panel makes it kind of hard to get the projector in and out of.

He is asking me to replace the nx7 with something like the Sony 715. isn't that like a totally lateral move?

He complaints that the JVC nx7 makes noises; what kind of noises do you guys experience with it? He hears it through the small slot.
He complains about HDMI dropouts, but he has none in the theater with the Tributaries ecosystem.

Would he be better served if we put a lumagen in the bedroom, remove and replace the cat 6 balun with the Tributaries as there is a conduit, and then we got a subsequent calibration after covid-19?

I only understand Dci RGB laser projectors, no experience on LCOS, thanks in advance.


----------



## Ironman1718

dlinsley said:


> Did you select the "Search automatically for drivers" option after selecting Update Driver? If it can't find them, try downloading the drivers from Virtual COM Port Drivers (ftdichip.com).
> 
> (Presuming the Radiance is out of standby. I'm not sure if the USB is enabled when in standby)


Thank you.. That is the same website Lumagen sent me to. Now the issue if figuring out how to get it to work. Mac is sooo much easier.  Thank you


----------



## Ash Sharma

Applemike68 said:


> Thank you.. That is the same website Lumagen sent me to. Now the issue if figuring out how to get it to work. Mac is sooo much easier.  Thank you


Not sure if this is a issue but in my case the projector had to be turned ON to get the update going.
If the Projector was OFF then Lumagen COM port could not be found.


----------



## Ironman1718

Ash Sharma said:


> Not sure if this is a issue but in my case the projector had to be turned ON to get the update going.
> If the Projector was OFF then Lumagen COM port could not be found.


Thanks, I was able to update the lumagen, all is good...


----------



## Kris Deering

CP850-CLED said:


> semi-related post
> 
> I have a client that has a lumagen wIth a Barco 4K 3P projector and loves it.
> 
> Now in his bedroom, he has a JVC nx7 mounted behind this huge removable wood panel, the beam goes through a small letter-box slot, removing this panel makes it kind of hard to get the projector in and out of.
> 
> He is asking me to replace the nx7 with something like the Sony 715. isn't that like a totally lateral move?
> 
> He complaints that the JVC nx7 makes noises; what kind of noises do you guys experience with it? He hears it through the small slot.
> He complains about HDMI dropouts, but he has none in the theater with the Tributaries ecosystem.
> 
> Would he be better served if we put a lumagen in the bedroom, remove and replace the cat 6 balun with the Tributaries as there is a conduit, and then we got a subsequent calibration after covid-19?
> 
> I only understand Dci RGB laser projectors, no experience on LCOS, thanks in advance.


Balun setups have been known to cause issues in lots of setups. Would definitely NOT go from NX7 to 715.


----------



## CP850-CLED

Kris Deering said:


> Balun setups have been known to cause issues in lots of setups. Would definitely NOT go from NX7 to 715.


Thank you Kris, will propose a Tributaries Lumagen solution and when traveling is again possible will chime in. for a calibration.


----------



## GrCinFan

A question for Jim and the other savvy guys in the forum as regards passing DTS audio from Lumagen to the preamp. 
One or two weeks ago, I bought the Lumagen Pro (6 inputs with one 18Ghz card and 4 outputs) to which I connected all my (6) sources (as per the advice from Jim and the forum guys) and set it up before the Preamp (YAMAHA MX 5100) which I was using to pass only audio (dedicated output 3 of the lumagen to an hdmi imput of the YAMAHA). It all went well (all sound formats were passing properly from the sources to the lumagen and then - audio only - to the preamp, which decoded it properly) until yesterday when I changed my preamp to a LYNGDORF MP - 40 (I chose this model over the bigger one since I am not interested in the additional channels and given that I should not need the additional video inputs as I would be using the lumagen's), Ever since the only format that passes as it should is DD. DTS cannot pass (the new preamp sees it as "48.0. Khz, PCM 2.0.0.".
When I connected the same source to the preamp it decoded DTS perfectly (it read the same signal as "48.0 Khz 5.1. DTS-HD MA" 
To correct he audio problem, i tried (as pr the manual) the AUDIO EDID command "Common" (0943) to no avail.
I have also seen in the forum, the lumagen setting tips providing for specific commands for specific formats (0748 for DTS) but this command cannot be executed at all. (It seems that the lumagen accepts only the common command), All other audio edids in the input setting ether produced the same resut or blocked audio alltogether.
Before going back to the previous preamp, is there another way to correct this problem in my setup?
Many thanks in advance,


----------



## Gordon Fraser

CP850-CLED said:


> He complaints that the JVC nx7 makes noises; what kind of noises do you guys experience with it? He hears it through the small slot.
> He complains about HDMI dropouts, but he has none in the theater with the Tributaries ecosystem.


The N series can make noises. Whenever the wide colour gamut filter is engaged or dissengaged you will hear weird noises. The auto irirs makes a noise. The fan makes a noise. You can optimise the set up of the projector so it is not using the auto iris features or engaging or dissengaging the filter set so that those are removed from the equation. Also with a Lumagen installed you can set it up so the proejctor never has to resync after initial turn on so that would hoepfullly also stop resync issues. I'd second removing the balun though and putting in the Pro rather than swapping to the other PJ.....


----------



## bobof

GrCinFan said:


> A question for Jim and the other savvy guys in the forum as regards passing DTS audio from Lumagen to the preamp.
> One or two weeks ago, I bought the Lumagen Pro (6 inputs with one 18Ghz card and 4 outputs) to which I connected all my (6) sources (as per the advice from Jim and the forum guys) and set it up before the Preamp (YAMAHA MX 5100) which I was using to pass only audio (dedicated output 3 of the lumagen to an hdmi imput of the YAMAHA). It all went well (all sound formats were passing properly from the sources to the lumagen and then - audio only - to the preamp, which decoded it properly) until yesterday when I changed my preamp to a LYNGDORF MP - 40 (I chose this model over the bigger one since I am not interested in the additional channels and given that I should not need the additional video inputs as I would be using the lumagen's), Ever since the only format that passes as it should is DD. DTS cannot pass (the new preamp sees it as "48.0. Khz, PCM 2.0.0.".
> When I connected the same source to the preamp it decoded DTS perfectly (it read the same signal as "48.0 Khz 5.1. DTS-HD MA"
> To correct he audio problem, i tried (as pr the manual) the AUDIO EDID command "Common" (0943) to no avail.
> I have also seen in the forum, the lumagen setting tips providing for specific commands for specific formats (0748 for DTS) but this command cannot be executed at all. (It seems that the lumagen accepts only the common command), All other audio edids in the input setting ether produced the same resut or blocked audio alltogether.
> Before going back to the previous preamp, is there another way to correct this problem in my setup?
> Many thanks in advance,


I have reported similar to Lumagen support in recent times with a different new processor I have here (Monoprice HTP1). You might find some posts from me a bit further back in this thread. Seems some processors are sometimes relying on the PCM / non-PCM bit of the Audio Channel Status for faster detection of audio format, and it seems like the Lumagen at the moment doesn't pass this through in all scenarios.

The Monoprice HTP1 actually only has the issue on the Lumagen output in a special mode for fast audio detection (PCM detect set to "Indicated"). Their default PCM Detect "Auto" mode does figure it out, but it's slower to detect. Maybe the Lyngdorf also has a similar option you might find that allows it to work better with the current Lumagen output.

Assuming your issue is the same as mine, then Lumagen are on the case; I sent Lumagen some data from some test equipment I have here that showed the issue pretty clearly earlier in the week. I've already had a couple of test builds out of Patrick at Lumagen, and the most recent of those appeared to fix it for some quick tests I did.

I'd suggest the best thing to do is to email Lumagen support ([email protected]) with details of the gear you are using, so they can know which other products it affects. They might I guess be interested to see if the test build also fixes your issue. And maybe also email Lyngdorf to find out if there are any other options you could use to circumvent it for now.

Edit: of course it is possible you're looking at another issue; but regardless, Lumagen support is the best way to go.


----------



## Nima

Bought myself a Shield Pro 2017 to watch Mandalorian Season 1 +2 in my Home Cinema again. But I feel that most of the DV content on Disney+ is way too dark compared to my UHD viewing (I have 115 nits peak).
Any tweaks to improve viewing for this type of content? Should I play I around with the DTM settings or anything else? I have 115 nits for low and 630 nits for high and Dpad 3 and I am super happy with UHDs.

TIA


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> Bought myself a Shield Pro 2017 to watch Mandalorian Season 1 +2 in my Home Cinema again. But I feel that most of the DV content on Disney+ is way too dark compared to my UHD viewing (I have 115 nits peak).
> Any tweaks to improve viewing for this type of content? Should I play I around with the DTM settings or anything else? I have 115 nits for low and 630 nits for high and Dpad 3 and I am super happy with UHDs.
> 
> TIA


I don't think it will do much for Mandalorian (it's regarded as being dark, I just think it's cinematic but tastes vary) but I think in general you would tweak your ratio to leave the low set a bit higher than you have. I think typically closer to 2x measured peak is recommended.
Edit: actually I hadn't seen a while ago a lot of recommendations seem to be in the range of 1-2x, so I guess just go with whatever. 
I have mine set to 2x and I like it at that level.


----------



## Nima

Higher low ratio means brighter darker scenes? I thought it was the other way around?


----------



## GrCinFan

bobof said:


> I have reported similar to Lumagen support in recent times with a different new processor I have here (Monoprice HTP1). You might find some posts from me a bit further back in this thread. Seems some processors are sometimes relying on the PCM / non-PCM bit of the Audio Channel Status for faster detection of audio format, and it seems like the Lumagen at the moment doesn't pass this through in all scenarios.
> 
> The Monoprice HTP1 actually only has the issue on the Lumagen output in a special mode for fast audio detection (PCM detect set to "Indicated"). Their default PCM Detect "Auto" mode does figure it out, but it's slower to detect. Maybe the Lyngdorf also has a similar option you might find that allows it to work better with the current Lumagen output.
> 
> Assuming your issue is the same as mine, then Lumagen are on the case; I sent Lumagen some data from some test equipment I have here that showed the issue pretty clearly earlier in the week. I've already had a couple of test builds out of Patrick at Lumagen, and the most recent of those appeared to fix it for some quick tests I did.
> 
> I'd suggest the best thing to do is to email Lumagen support ([email protected]) with details of the gear you are using, so they can know which other products it affects. They might I guess be interested to see if the test build also fixes your issue. And maybe also email Lyngdorf to find out if there are any other options you could use to circumvent it for now.
> 
> Edit: of course it is possible you're looking at another issue; but regardless, Lumagen support is the best way to go.


Many thanks for your reply. I have seen the thread and it seems that Jim had pointed this out at the time indicating that it was then fixed. I had hoped that this was something dealt with, I shall contact Lumagen on Monday. By the way what is the "test build"?
The only way out I have seen is to connect the sources first to the preamp and then to the Lumagen (the sound formats are decoded fully then) but I am out of inputs! Truly I do not see this is a problem of Lyngdorf as they are decoding the sound formats.


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> Higher low ratio means brighter darker scenes? I thought it was the other way around?


No you are right, higher low ratio nits means darker generally, though I think when you have higher amounts of nits available you should be able to have higher low ratio level.

I guess it depends on what you want your image to look like to some extent. I like mine to be like SDR overall feel but with some highlights. 

The way I basically understand, SDR typical cinema look is around 50nits for full white which would be ~100 nits on a TV.
So if you have 100 nits on screen, low ratio resulting in around 200 should mean the "SDR" look content will still be about SDR. Maybe.

But I think quite a lot of people want HDR to be very bright, with the overall image looking much brighter than SDR content. I don't think that is what HDR should look like personally, but it is what most demo type content aims for.


----------



## bobof

GrCinFan said:


> Many thanks for your reply. I have seen the thread and it seems that Jim had pointed this out at the time indicating that it was then fixed. I had hoped that this was something dealt with, I shall contact Lumagen on Monday. By the way what is the "test build"?


Not sure where you thought Jim said this was fixed, maybe you're thinking about another issue. The post I started with on this issue was here:









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Thanks for the update! Did all the black and white in my VW790 and in Lumagen yesterday. For both REC709 and REC2020 i put the contrast at 98 (extreme in my world) and the blacks no problem but couldnt differentiate 96 and 104 white until i had -1 (really clear on -2) in Lumagens white setting...




www.avsforum.com




I left it for a while as it wasn't conclusively a Lumagen thing at the time and I didn't have time to look at it in detail.
When I had some more debugging information (needed to wait to have time to investigate it and bring some test equipment home) I sent the info to Lumagen (early this week) and they sent a couple of test builds, the second one did fix this audio issue for me, I guess it might also for you. But really, best contact them and work out with them what is best. It could be something else completely, I'm just recounting my recent experience with this.



GrCinFan said:


> The only way out I have seen is to connect the sources first to the preamp and then to the Lumagen (the sound formats are decoded fully then) but I am out of inputs!


I've actually connected my sources to the HTP1 directly at the moment as it does work pretty well (and conversely, gives me 8 inputs instead of the 4 of my 4242, which is now too little for me) . But yes, you've got the only 2021 AV processor with only 3 HDMI inputs (really no idea what they were thinking with that move) so I can see why you need more! . Needless to say it _should_ work fine if you route sources to the Lyngdorf first, so long as your HDMI chain is tolerant of being that way round. I think most who've tried it recently find it works with a variety of gear, but some find it doesn't.



GrCinFan said:


> Truly I do not see this is a problem of Lyngdorf as they are decoding the sound formats.


Things are rarely this black and white in the world of interoperability. I can see things both ways. 

Yes, I think the Lumagen can do better at passing through the PCM channel status bits, and it seems a fix is on the way.

Are you sure this is the default operation mode of the Lyngdorf though? As I say, on the HTP1 I had to enable a special mode to get it to be strict in its interpretation of the PCM flag. If Lyngdorf absolutely have to see the PCM flag properly to enable surround decoding, it might mean, for instance, that they could never play back the rare DTS CDs (as they appear to be PCM from the outside world, and a CD player has no way to indicate "not PCM"), or that there are other sources which will have no chance of working if they don't have the right bits set. Maybe.

Most AVRs and processors use more than just the PCM channel status data to determine the incoming audio format and whether it needs decoding for playback - this is why most devices works OK on the Lumagen output.

So as I say, I can see it from both sides. At least in owning the Lumagen you have a product where the engineering team are very engaged and regularly turn around fixes in very short timeframes.


----------



## GrCinFan

Thanks again
This is what I was talking about (posted sometime in 2019 I think by Jim)
"There have been a few high-end audio processors that have had issues with the Pro audio output. These have been (as best we can determine) that the audio processor is not processing all needed audio interrupts for the Pro's "audio only" output (and instead depending on video interrupts to know when to change the audio mode which does not work with an "audio only" stream since the blank video carrying the audio does not change), or HDMI circuit designs that need an active cable because they cannot deal with the fast edge rates of the Radiance Pro audio only output. Or, as another example, one high end audio product's switch board (which is used in a number of high end audio products) was reporting that the 6 Channel PCM it was receiving was 6 channel PCM as it should, but only processing the left and right channels. Patrick figured out how to have the Pro output kick the audio processor switch board just right to wake it up and get it to not only report the 6 channels, but also to process all of them. Fortunately we have now worked around the audio processor audio issues we know about. I mention these in case something new pops up with a different product"

To me the fewer preamp inputs make sense as .they are investing rather on audio than video and in video there is nobody that can compete Lumagen. My idea was to have an excellent audio processor (and out of the box this sounds excellent indeed) and to follow lumagen, which excels in video processing. In the past I have seen too many preamps basting for superb video processing but that did not seem to be the case.
What I have for the time being done is to connect (a blu ray) hdmi video to lumagen and its hdmi audio to one of the 3 inputs of Lyngdorf and this works. But gfiven the few inpits and the lack of hdmi audio outputs in most sources that is not feasible (and certainly not practical).
I have no doubt the matter will be solved however.
Best


----------



## bobof

GrCinFan said:


> Thanks again
> This is what I was talking about (posted sometime in 2019 I think by Jim)
> "There have been a few high-end audio processors that have had issues with the Pro audio output. These have been (as best we can determine) that the audio processor is not processing all needed audio interrupts for the Pro's "audio only" output (and instead depending on video interrupts to know when to change the audio mode which does not work with an "audio only" stream since the blank video carrying the audio does not change), or HDMI circuit designs that need an active cable because they cannot deal with the fast edge rates of the Radiance Pro audio only output. Or, as another example, one high end audio product's switch board (which is used in a number of high end audio products) was reporting that the 6 Channel PCM it was receiving was 6 channel PCM as it should, but only processing the left and right channels. Patrick figured out how to have the Pro output kick the audio processor switch board just right to wake it up and get it to not only report the 6 channels, but also to process all of them. Fortunately we have now worked around the audio processor audio issues we know about. I mention these in case something new pops up with a different product"


No, different issue - tha post from Jim is over 2 years old now I think. Ironically the Lumagen unit was also afflicted by a version of the issue with the 2.0->5.1PCM switch not happening properly after that post from Jim; I worked through it with Lumagen some months later. But as ever, once they had a reproducible example they were able to find and quickly turned around a fix.


GrCinFan said:


> To me the fewer preamp inputs make sense as .they are investing rather on audio than video and in video there is nobody that can compete Lumagen. My idea was to have an excellent audio processor (and out of the box this sounds excellent indeed) and to follow lumagen, which excels in video processing. In the past I have seen too many preamps basting for superb video processing but that did not seem to be the case.


Yeah, I don't buy it personally on this product for that reason; it's basically market segmentation as the extra HDMI chip and connectors do not amount to the very large $$$$ difference in price between the -40 and the -60; they're keeping as many reasons to upsell as possible, which makes total commercial sense. Just don't believe the bull£^&$ that they're doing you a favour in only giving you 3 inputs!  It just "is what it is", you have to put up with it if you want the cheaper Lyngdorf.


GrCinFan said:


> I have no doubt the matter will be solved however.


I'm sure it will be solved (certainly if it is the same issue as I see), but do get in touch with Lumagen so they know about it on your system and can verify it is the same issue.


----------



## GrCinFan

I see your point but I do believe that this "small" preamp is a "no-brainer" for people like me who are not interested either in the extra video inputs (cause of the lumagen and their recommendation to avoid using such inputs) or the additional channels. As a matter of fact, I do not think there is any other similar product in the market today.


----------



## loggeo

bobof said:


> You've got several memories, if you haven't committed all of them to other functions you could set one memory up to not perform any colour processing. You'd need to configure a CMS appropriately. You could then switch memories to go between Lumagen DTM with SDR out and the HDR10 data passed through so the projector would have to do TM before display.


I believe you don't have to configure any cms. If you select "Default" cms, lumagen will output same colorspace as input.


----------



## jrp

Thanks go to bobof for such a detailed bug report on the Monoprice PCM Info Frame Flag issue that Patrick was able to quickly reproduce the bug by building a test version of the Pro software as a test instrument to use on the output of an "under test" Radiance Pro, and resolve the issue (at least we believe it is). 

The issue was that there is a somewhat obscure, "PCM" flag in the Info Frame that the Radiance Pro did not output. Historically issues are almost always in "the other device," but this one was a Radiance Pro miss, all be it for a flag that does not seem to be needed by the vast majority of audio processors. Seems there is very little kit out there that uses this flag and it appears that even the Monoprice audio processor does not use it by default.

Patrick has a fix for this for the next release. bobof has confirmed it works (but wanted to do more testing). In addition, since this is actually additional information, Patrick is adding a field to the debug information on Info Pg 4 for this PCM Info Frame flag. So, it will be possible to see which sources implement this flag by looking at the debug information.

I have not heard back on if using this flag speeds up audio transition to, or from, PCM, but sounds like this is a possibility, at least for the Monoprice audio processor.


----------



## jrp

loggeo said:


> I believe you don't have to configure any cms. If you select "Default" cms, lumagen will output same colorspace as input.


For the CMS column in the Output Setup Menu, Default means all CMS values are at default. However, the output colorspace is set in the Output Style, and so you can change the output colorspace even if you select the Default CMS.

I recommend against using the Default CMS. That is, unless you are using all eight CMS memories and still need one additional CMS at Default. You cannot change any settings in the default CMS. So, it has limited use.


----------



## bobof

loggeo said:


> I believe you don't have to configure any cms. If you select "Default" cms, lumagen will output same colorspace as input.


I didn't know this, thanks. I thought you always had to select a numbered CMS (since that's how the unit is set up normally).


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> Higher low ratio means brighter darker scenes? I thought it was the other way around?


Raising the Low Ratio (or Max Light), tells the Radiance Pro that the projector/TV has less light output. The Pro compensates by raising the brightness.

As noted Low Ratio sets the "effective Max Light for dark scenes." We recommend that Low Ratio is set such that the reported "L" (Low brightness scene effective Max Light) in the Parameter menu (that shows when the Low Ratio is highlighted), reports 1X to 1.5X the actual measured light output.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Raising the Low Ratio (or Max Light), tells the Radiance Pro that the projector/TV has less light output. The Pro compensates by raising the brightness.
> 
> As noted Low Ratio sets the "effective Max Light for dark scenes." We recommend that Low Ratio is set such that the reported "L" (Low brightness scene effective Max Light) in the Parameter menu (that shows when the Low Ratio is highlighted), reports 1X to 1.5X the actual measured light output.


Thanks for this, I'm due a recalibration after a new lamp and I'll try this, I've always has it set to around 2x so it will be interesting to have a play again


----------



## loggeo

jrp said:


> For the CMS column in the Output Setup Menu, Default means all CMS values are at default. However, the output colorspace is set in the Output Style, and so you can change the output colorspace even if you select the Default CMS.
> 
> I recommend against using the Default CMS. That is, unless you are using all eight CMS memories and still need one additional CMS at Default. You cannot change any settings in the default CMS. So, it has limited use.


So I am testing (I believe ssuccessfully) the following. 
I am setting CMS to default. In the Output selection I choose default cms for both 709 and 2020 for all modes.
For this Particular memory I don't want lumagen to interfere. Short of a "through" mode.
I am testing rgb sdr2020, rec.709 input Signals.
By default I get 422 sdr2020, rec.709 output .
Of course I can change output type to RGB.
Will this not work?


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Thanks for this, I'm due a recalibration after a new lamp and I'll try this, I've always has it set to around 2x so it will be interesting to have a play again


Your comment leads me to an additional response on the best "effective Max Light for dark scenes." 

For SDR content the mastering is done to a 106 nit (also have heard 100 and108 nits as the reference), but the commercial theater standard light output is roughly half of this at about 48 nits (14 Foot-Lamberts). So your choice of 2X measured light for the "effective Max Light for dark scenes" implies that content below that is reproduced at about half brightness, which should be a close match to what you see in a cinema.

I prefer watch SDR content as close to 1:1 for brightness as possible. The Lumagen Demo Theater has about 78 nits output, and I watch SDR content with this output level. I have the "effective Max Light for dark scenes" right about the 106 nit level. So for most of the range SDR content and HDR content should have similar brightness. Said another way an HDR scene with a MaxCLL of 106 nits should look similar to the same scene on a SDR disc for brightness in our Demo theater. To me this seems like a good option. Others may have a different preference of course.


----------



## jrp

loggeo said:


> So I am testing (I believe ssuccessfully) the following.
> I am setting CMS to default. In the Output selection I choose default cms for both 709 and 2020 for all modes.
> For this Particular memory I don't want lumagen to interfere. Short of a "through" mode.
> I am testing rgb sdr2020, rec.709 input Signals.
> By default I get 422 sdr2020, rec.709 output .
> Of course I can change output type to RGB.
> Will this not work?


For a default CMS the input and output match for Gamut and dynamic range. What this means is for SDR 709 content the output will be SDR709, and for HDR2020 content the output will be HDR2020.


----------



## Surge2018

Erod said:


> So I'll be adding a Lumagen to my system tomorrow, and I've been reading through the thread and I see different opinions on hookup.
> 
> Do I leave my source inputs in my Anthem AVM60 and just put the Lumagen between it and the projector? Or do I run my sources into the Lumagen and audio out to the Anthem?
> 
> Is there a visible video quality or a performance difference either way?
> 
> If I use the Anthem for switching, do I run the video into Input 1 on the Lumagen?
> 
> If I use the Lumagen for switching, which input on the Anthem do I run the audio into?
> 
> Thanks.


The Lumagen recommended connection setup is to use the Radiance for switching, and connect 1 output directly to your display and another output for audio to your AVR.

I initially didn’t do that, and used my Denon 8500 for switching. Not only were there annoying handshake issues, but the video quality did suffer. Not by much, but even with all video processing turned off on the Denon, the image did improve when it was removed from the chain.
Use the HDMI input that’s physically closest to the output. At least on the Denon, this is recommended by the company to minimize jitter.


----------



## Surge2018

Mark Burton said:


> You shouldn’t get any video degradation, do what works best for you. Some use the avr for input changing, others use the lumagen.


You absolutely do, and this is why Lumagen suggests not connecting it this way. It makes sense: you are lengthening and complicating the video signal path by running it through another set of connectors and another device.
I was not expecting to actually see a difference, however, and I was wrong. The difference was noticeable.


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> People often ask me if a Linear Power Supply is a good idea. In short, yes, it can provide improvement. I have a few people who have switched to a Linear Power Supply and the feedback has been positive.
> 
> As I have discussed, HDMI jitter, and the electrical noise in the HDMI signal and back to the mains, can affect audio quality, and in some cases video quality.
> 
> I have discussed that lower-jitter can reduce the bit-error-rate of an HDMI signal. Lower HDMI clock jitter will also mean the de-jitter circuits in the audio processor start with a cleaner signal and so can send a lower-jitter signal to the DAC's. Lower jitter at the DAC leads to lower distortion in the audio. This can be heard, but how much is system dependent.
> 
> The linear power supply will act as a noise buffer between the Radiance Pro's high speed digital electronics and the mains. This noise reduction can improve the wall power going to the power amplifiers, and there is the possibility the lower noise floor may improve audio.
> 
> The Linear power supply also provides a cleaner, lower electrical-noise-floor power to the Radiance Pro itself. Noise floor can directly affect output jitter to some degree. Also a lower electrical-noise-floor in the Radiance Pro may mean a lower-noise-floor on the HDMI output injected in the the audio-processor and the projector/TV. A lower electrical-noise-floor can mean an improvement in the audio signal-to-noise ratio. For video a lower electrical-noise-floor for an analog display technology (DiLA and LCOS are analog at the display level) can reduce background noise in the image.
> 
> Note that I use "can" and "may" and "potentially" for these comments. I do this since any improvement is system dependent. You may not hear or see any improvement, but you might. I have heard some improvement form a linear supply for audio, but this is a subtle improvement. If you want the absolute best audio, then I believe you will be happy spending the money on an excellent "audio quality" linear power supply for the Radiance Pro.
> 
> I mentioned there is a chance that you might see a video improvement. However, if you do it would be subtle, and once again you may not see any improvement.
> 
> I wish I could be more adamant you will hear and see an improvement. Unfortunately any improvement is system and viewer/listener dependent. For those who want the best audio and video, I think a linear power supply for the Pro is a good investment. Just understand your mileage may vary.
> 
> I plan to purchase a Keces P8 12 VDC at 8 Amp single output supply (KECES) as soon as they come back in stock, for my testing here. There are other brands of high end linear power supplies that could also suit this application.


I’ve used Teddy Pardo supplies for years, and have one on the Radiance Pro. I didn’t do A-B comparisons since I know AC quality makes a big difference. Which is also why I use PS Audio Regenerators. I have no complaints with the audio and video quality!

Video quality certainly improves when improving the quality of the incoming AC. This has been well documented (just read reviews of the PS Audio P20 and other models in their lineup). 
There are actually visible improvements when reducing impedance on the power generator.

Everything you see and hear, is modulated power from your wall!
And power quality is bad, in all parts of the world. I don’t think any utilities provide pure sinusoidal AC at 120V and 60Hz. There are oscilloscopes on the PS Audio products that prove that.


----------



## Technology3456

If I want to take two non-3D projectors, like two Infocus IN83's, or two Runco LS5's, or two Sim2 C3X's, or whatever, and stack them and get passive linear 3D from them, can the Lumagen do that? As in, not just enable 3D from a stack of two 2D projectors, but allow you to choose exactly what type of 3D? 

Because I need to make a decision what projector to buy, but I still dont understand how this works, or what type of 3D is the best and least eye straining. So I either need posts to tell me ahead of time which is best, or I need to know if there are processors that will give you flexibility to pick which one you like once you do figure it out?


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> For a default CMS the input and output match for Gamut and dynamic range. What this means is for SDR 709 content the output will be SDR709, and for HDR2020 content the output will be HDR2020.


EDITED:
Jim, I temporarily want to use the RP as a video passthrough device, making use of only *upscaling* *and* *edge enhancements* (Darbee & Sharpness) with the AVR as the switching device; no other RP video processing of any kind (no DTM, Rec709/BT2020 processing, etc.). If that's possible, could you please recommend the simplest mechanism that will allow future retrieval of my current settings when the RP is back in the video chain? Thanks.


----------



## appelz

docrog said:


> Jim, I temporarily want to use the RP as a video passthrough device, making use of only edge enhancements (Darbee & Sharpness) with the AVR as the switching device; no other RP video processing of any kind (no DTM, Rec709/BT2020 processing, etc.). If that's possible, could you please recommend the simplest mechanism that will allow future retrieval of my current settings when the RP is back in the video chain? Thanks.


Not Jim, but it seems the simplest would be to use the Configuration Utility to save your existing config to a laptop, then factory reset the Radiance. Then go through the menu, make sure Tone Mapping is off. If you wanted to eliminate upscaling, you could setup up Outputs for each input resolution, matching the input. There may be an easier way to do that, but I've never been asked to do that before... Sounds like having a client ask me to setup their Trinnov, but they only want to use it as a volume control.


----------



## Surge2018

jbrinegar said:


> Any specific scenes I can double check for you? I watched both shows and didn’t notice any issues. I’m using a multiplier of 6 for my global max light. (70 nits x 6=420 global max light). I’m using dyn pad 4.


Interesting, thanks. On content like Blade Runner 2049 my image is stunning, and not too dark. Not sure why it’s much darker on this Apple TV+ content... 
I’m at 136 nits for HDR and using 1070 for max light, so about 7.8X, but I have to bring MaxLight down to about 600 to make this ATV+ content look good.


----------



## Surge2018

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks! Now I am not alone. Use IT part 2 to serve as a really good example of that (purchased from iTunes) as well as The Equalizer (also an iTunes purchase). The overall picture is so dark and dull and lost of a lot of details that I have never ever been close to on UHD discs. I have compared scenes with my TV that supprt Dolby Vision and the picture is brighter with more details there. I can give some scene examples too if needed.
> 
> The thing is: since the latest firmware HDR has a new meaning to me. Not overall very much darker compared to SDR that was my impression before (alos after having JVC NX5 for more than 6 months before). So all in all very pleased with the DTM from Lumagen, a new HDR world so to speak. The only problem is the DV content from ATV that is converted into HDR10 and the processed by Lumagen. Some of the content - and a fex examples that I have mentioned - is exteremly dark. I can understand the intent and all that - but that should not include loss of details (as I can cleary see when comparing with the same movei however then in DV on my TV).


Perhaps this is something that @jrp and his team can look into. As mentioned, I also saw a couple of scenes where the Radiance was varying the brightness during the scene, almost like it was “hunting” for the right setting. It was brief and only in 1-2 moments in Episode 1 of Amazing Stories. It did also seem like HDR was not optimal, no matter what I did wrt adjusting MaxLight and DynPad.


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> I'm not sure if it will help or shed any light, might just be a waste of your time; if you want to look into it there re a couple of things to bear in mind maybe.
> 
> The AppleTV with Dolby vision outputs dumb metatdata and converts internally in the AppleTV to HDR10. There was a time when a lot of DV was being converted to HDR10 with metadata that would change every 30s or 5m05s, which would cause some problems for the Lumagen (jumping luminance and audio drops). In recent times I think I've seen some titles just have fixed 10000 nit metadata or 4000 nit, even though I guess they never get near that.
> 
> The Lumagen does pay some attention for something to the metadata, I'm not sure exactly what but it at least seems to impact the clipping point on some test images. I could see some logic that an unusually high metadata might impact brightness, but I don't know enough about the internals.
> 
> If you wanted to try and work out a bit more what is going on, you might try looking at what the metadata would appear to be set to (you can do this by pressing OK on the Lumagen remote while a title is playing, until you get to the screen with MaxCLL info) and making note of whether you see any difference for the bright vs dull content (I assume you have content in both camps on your system?)
> 
> There are some settings in the HDR settings for the input that allow you to override the metadata, you might play with that to see if it improves things for you.
> 
> The other thing that springs to mind as being worth checking is that some of the HDR settings in the Lumagen are per-input, so if you set up your HDR on one device and then switched to AppleTV, you might not be using the same settings.
> 
> And of course, it is also possible the content is just mastered badly...
> 
> As I say, the above is maybe interesting depending on how you're wired, or maybe just frustrating. I'm sure others will be interested in what you find if you do note any patterns between content / input you think is too dark, settings, reported data, etc.


Interesting... 
However, it’s not all content from ATV that’s overly dark. I would say most HDR content from ATV looks great. It seems more like the Apple TV+ content that has issues. That’s ironic, since the audio and video quality from ATV+ is the best I’ve seen from any streaming source - far better than Netflix et al. 

It could be mastered badly, but unlikely, given that Amazing Stories is produced by Spielberg and On the Rocks is by Francis Ford Coppola’s company.

I’ll try setting the ATV to HDR output. Normally, I use it in 4K SDR, so it doesn’t force convert SDR to HDR.


----------



## bobof

Best bet is probably share some timestamps and then others can have a look and compare notes if they're interested to.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Your comment leads me to an additional response on the best "effective Max Light for dark scenes."
> 
> For SDR content the mastering is done to a 106 nit (also have heard 100 and108 nits as the reference), but the commercial theater standard light output is roughly half of this at about 48 nits (14 Foot-Lamberts). So your choice of 2X measured light for the "effective Max Light for dark scenes" implies that content below that is reproduced at about half brightness, which should be a close match to what you see in a cinema.
> 
> I prefer watch SDR content as close to 1:1 for brightness as possible. The Lumagen Demo Theater has about 78 nits output, and I watch SDR content with this output level. I have the "effective Max Light for dark scenes" right about the 106 nit level. So for most of the range SDR content and HDR content should have similar brightness. Said another way an HDR scene with a MaxCLL of 106 nits should look similar to the same scene on a SDR disc for brightness in our Demo theater. To me this seems like a good option. Others may have a different preference of course.


Thanks, sounds like our approaches are similar but different in that we're trying to match most of our HDR to our SDR range, but I prefer darker for SDR. I do still open up the iris for HDR, which on balance I prefer over using the same output for HDR and SDR, inspite of the arguments about the reduced contrast from opening the iris actually resulting in less dynamic range.

It's great that we have the tools at our disposal to be able to configure this as we each like.


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> Interesting, thanks. On content like Blade Runner 2049 my image is stunning, and not too dark. Not sure why it’s much darker on this Apple TV+ content...
> I’m at 136 nits for HDR and using 1070 for max light, so about 7.8X, but I have to bring MaxLight down to about 600 to make this ATV+ content look good.


I'd be careful about using BR2049 for much, as it is famously not really "very" HDR by consumer standards. It's basically the SDR mapped within a 200nit range. 



 . That doesn't mean it doesn't look good; all us projection folk would probably like nothing more than to be given the 106nit Dolby Vision cinema grades to use in our rooms. But it's probably not a great title to use for setup / comparison as most TV HDR won't be like it. 

I thought I liked my max light setting was on the high side, 7.8x is even higher than I go though! If it works for you good, but if you're reducing it for AppleTV maybe it's a bit too high?


----------



## jbrinegar

Surge2018 said:


> Interesting, thanks. On content like Blade Runner 2049 my image is stunning, and not too dark. Not sure why it’s much darker on this Apple TV+ content...
> I’m at 136 nits for HDR and using 1070 for max light, so about 7.8X, but I have to bring MaxLight down to about 600 to make this ATV+ content look good.


Perhaps the reason it looks plenty bright to me is my multiplier is x 6. I also checked out equalizer on iTunes, and it looks fine to me too, no problems with brightness.
In fact, I might lower my global max light a little more as I lose bulb brightness


----------



## Roland Janus

once switched manually to another aspect, what do I send using a harmony remote to reset AA detection?


----------



## scrowe

GrCinFan said:


> I see your point but I do believe that this "small" preamp is a "no-brainer" for people like me who are not interested either in the extra video inputs (cause of the lumagen and their recommendation to avoid using such inputs) or the additional channels. As a matter of fact, I do not think there is any other similar product in the market today.


I bought the MP-40 for this exact reason, albeit my install is delayed by a combination of COVID lockdown and wanting to move house. Very interested in how you get on addressing this potential compatibility issue.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> EDITED:
> Jim, I temporarily want to use the RP as a video passthrough device, making use of only *upscaling* *and* *edge enhancements* (Darbee & Sharpness) with the AVR as the switching device; no other RP video processing of any kind (no DTM, Rec709/BT2020 processing, etc.). If that's possible, could you please recommend the simplest mechanism that will allow future retrieval of my current settings when the RP is back in the video chain? Thanks.


For others interested in this who perhaps do not have ability to download config file you can do the following.

MENU 0910 to turn on service mode of scaler
MENU 0997 OK to save back up in scaler itself.

Mneu 0910 to turn off service mode.

Now you can do whatever you want, factory reset, save new setttings ,whatever....When you want to go back to your old saved backup just go to MENU.SAVE.RESTORE BACK UP and it'll go to that saved back up. So you can then MENU>SAVE>SAVE. SAVE and it'll be back and in permanent use.


----------



## GrCinFan

scrowe said:


> I bought the MP-40 for this exact reason, albeit my install is delayed by a combination of COVID lockdown and wanting to move house. Very interested in how you get on addressing this potential compatibility issue.


Have been trying for hours to have the problem solved with no result. It is clear that the preamp does not "understand" HD Audio when this comes from the Lumagen. One or two sources that have a second hdmi audio output (such as the SONY X800 BLU RAY) work o.k. (when Iplug this hdmi audio output to the receiver) but some other sources (such as the PANASONIC BLU RAY) do not!
When I plug the sources into the preamp directly (HDMI VIDEO and AUDIO together) everything works fine.
There is no question that it is the separation of the AUDIO signal from the VIDEO that causes the problem. 
I shall give it one more try with my calibrator whom I am expecting this Tuesday to fine tune the lumagen. 
If this does not work, I shall seek advice from Lumagen and Lyngdorf.


----------



## bobof

GrCinFan said:


> Have been trying for hours to have the problem solved with no result. It is clear that the preamp does not "understand" HD Audio when this comes from the Lumagen. One or two sources that have a second hdmi audio output (such as the SONY X800 BLU RAY) work o.k. (when Iplug this hdmi audio output to the receiver) but some other sources (such as the PANASONIC BLU RAY) do not!
> When I plug the sources into the preamp directly (HDMI VIDEO and AUDIO together) everything works fine.
> There is no question that it is the separation of the AUDIO signal from the VIDEO that causes the problem.
> I shall give it one more try with my calibrator whom I am expecting this Tuesday to fine tune the lumagen.
> If this does not work, I shall seek advice from Lumagen and Lyngdorf.


There really aren't many settings to tweak about audio in the Radiance. Once you set the Lumagen to send the right EDID through - I find it best to set the Audio EDID to be fixed at COMMON, instead of using the PASSBACK options - that's about it. 

The PASSBACK options pass through the Audio EDID from one or other of the sink devices connected to the outputs, and they've sometimes been troublesome / annoying for me. COMMON locks the audio EDID the sources see, regardless of what happens at the Pro's output. COMMON is most formats including Atmos, and if you have no Atmos speakers there is another option for COMMON without Atmos. There's another option you can set around audio muting, but I've not found it helpful in my own systems for anything - I'm sure it serves a purpose for some though.

Are you saying your Panasonic Bluray has a second Audio output that also doesn't work on the Lyngdorf? (I'm not sure I read the order of your sentence right). If so, that sounds worth pursuing with Lyngdorf too.


----------



## GrCinFan

It seems that you may have been right from the outset. I have now tried to pass signal from lumagen output 2 (video and audio) and the problem persists. So this is not a signal separation issue. A similar issue has now been reported to the lyndorf mp - 40 thread so this seems to be something that Lynggdorf should deal with.
Yes the PANASONIC hdmi audio only did not fix the problem as did the DONY hdmi audio output, Strange world, isn't it?


----------



## bobof

GrCinFan said:


> It seems that you may have been right from the outset. I have now tried to pass signal from lumagen output 2 (video and audio) and the problem persists. So this is not a signal separation issue. A similar issue has now been reported to the lyndorf mp - 40 thread so this seems to be something that Lynggdorf should deal with.
> Yes the PANASONIC hdmi audio only did not fix the problem as did the DONY hdmi audio output, Strange world, isn't it?


Well, it sounds in that case like Lyngdorf's HDMI strategy is going to cause them issue with other products too and they should maybe look to improve it (assuming you had the Panasonic audio out enabled properly - have you tried it on another processor? Does it work with your old one?)

As I said, you're lucky with the Lumagen that the guys are really engaged. If the Panasonic doesn't work, not sure you'll get much help from Panasonic in getting an update! 

The more I think and read about it, the more I think reliance on the PCM bits to match the content is a high-risk strategy...


----------



## audioguy

Feedback: Since forever, I have had an issue where when I selected my Nvidia Shield as my source, I got "The Green Screen". I'm not 100% sure, but I think it started when I inserted the Lumagen into my video chain. When that occurred, I would switch to another input, and then back and it would work fine. The most recent update has fixed that issue. Yeah Lumagen !!!


----------



## GrCinFan

bobof said:


> Well, it sounds in that case like Lyngdorf's HDMI strategy is going to cause them issue with other products too and they should maybe look to improve it (assuming you had the Panasonic audio out enabled properly - have you tried it on another processor? Does it work with your old one?)
> 
> As I said, you're lucky with the Lumagen that the guys are really engaged. If the Panasonic doesn't work, not sure you'll get much help from Panasonic in getting an update!
> 
> The more I think and read about it, the more I think reliance on the PCM bits to match the content is a high-risk strategy...


U have not tried the PANASOIC with the YAMAHA preamp as I did not have the problem, to start with. But let me tell you of another source (ZAPPITI 4k HDR), to which I need to have its hd audio downmixed to sd audio (the zappiti has an option to that effect). Once I have the audio signal downmixed, the Zappiti detects the audio (for instance DTS from DTS hd) otherwise t shows DTS HD as pcm 2.0.0..


----------



## scrowe

GrCinFan said:


> U have not tried the PANASOIC with the YAMAHA preamp as I did not have the problem, to start with. But let me tell you of another source (ZAPPITI 4k HDR), to which I need to have its hd audio downmixed to sd audio (the zappiti has an option to that effect). Once I have the audio signal downmixed, the Zappiti detects the audio (for instance DTS from DTS hd) otherwise t shows DTS HD as pcm 2.0.0..


Just read on UK forums that Lyngdorf could be a bit fussy on startup and HDMI syncs on connected devices. Have you tried powering on Lyngdorf, wait 20s, power on Lumagen, wait a few secs, power on playback device. Might be worth a try.


----------



## GrCinFan

scrowe said:


> Just read on UK forums that Lyngdorf could be a bit fussy on startup and HDMI syncs on connected devices. Have you tried powering on Lyngdorf, wait 20s, power on Lumagen, wait a few secs, power on playback device. Might be worth a try.


Just tried it. No success, I am afraid. Grateful for your assistance though.


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> Best bet is probably share some timestamps and then others can have a look and compare notes if they're interested to.


It’s consistent throughout the titles. Comparing iTunes Ford vs Ferrari for example, with On The Rocks, is night and day in terms of scene brightness. 
I tried setting the ATV to 4K HDR rather than 4K SDR (we know the ATV auto-switches to HDR even in SDR mode); but it didn’t make a difference. 
I guess it’s impossible for all content to be mastered the same way, especially with HDR. So some user adjustments will still be necessary, even with dynamic tone mapping - if you want optimal image quality.


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> I'd be careful about using BR2049 for much, as it is famously not really "very" HDR by consumer standards. It's basically the SDR mapped within a 200nit range.
> 
> 
> 
> . That doesn't mean it doesn't look good; all us projection folk would probably like nothing more than to be given the 106nit Dolby Vision cinema grades to use in our rooms. But it's probably not a great title to use for setup / comparison as most TV HDR won't be like it.
> 
> I thought I liked my max light setting was on the high side, 7.8x is even higher than I go though! If it works for you good, but if you're reducing it for AppleTV maybe it's a bit too high?


Interesting, thanks. 
I set my MaxLight based on the overturned boat scene in The Meg. I paused on that scene and set MaxL so there is no clipping, as suggested by Jim. 
I’m not sure I trust my calibrator‘s 136 nit rating of my projector in HDR mode. It’s probably right, but not sure. I’m only using a 100” screen from 10 ft away.
Anyway, 1070 MaxL and DynPad 5 looks stunning on most content! It’s really just a few ATV+ content that is too dark.


----------



## Jue Liang

Surge2018 said:


> Interesting, thanks.
> I set my MaxLight based on the overturned boat scene in The Meg. I paused on that scene and set MaxL so there is no clipping, as suggested by Jim.
> I’m not sure I trust my calibrator‘s 136 nit rating of my projector in HDR mode. It’s probably right, but not sure. I’m only using a 100” screen from 10 ft away.
> Anyway, 1070 MaxL and DynPad 5 looks stunning on most content! It’s really just a few ATV+ content that is too dark.


Does your ATV output 24p or 60p? I found with the latest f/w, Lumagen’s calculated maxY almost doubled when playing the same clip at 60P than at 24P, so it would be darker at 60p. I reported this to Patrick last month.


----------



## bobof

Jue Liang said:


> Does your ATV output 24p or 60p? I found with the latest f/w, Lumagen’s calculated maxY almost doubled when playing the same clip at 60P than at 24P, so it would be darker at 60p. I reported this to Patrick last month.


Very interesting! I always have mine output at 24p. It might certainly account for some differences reported.


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> Interesting, thanks.
> I set my MaxLight based on the overturned boat scene in The Meg. I paused on that scene and set MaxL so there is no clipping, as suggested by Jim.


I don't think setting maxL for no clipping in a particular scene makes sense. The clipping is a function of bright content coupled with this setting, and not the display, so if everyone did that everyone would have the same result for MaxL, regardless of what their screen nits was (because the clipping would be at same point). I had to dig through the posts, but the info I found about setting MaxL based on that scene said to balance overall scene brightness against skin tones, nothing about clipping. Maybe we're looking at different posts? This was the one I was looking at.


jrp said:


> - Max Light: This is a backdoor way to change the active HDR CMS (default is CMS1) HDR Mapping Max Light setting. This Max Light is used for very bright scenes. It is also used as the base-value for Max Light for dark to mid-level scenes. That is, the Low-ratio adjusts the transfer function using the bright scene Max Light as the base value. Changing this control will change the Display Max Light value in active CMS. We recommend setting CMS Max Light to 4 to 5 times the measured maximum light off the screen in nits for projectors. I use 4.5 times for our Lumagen Demo Theater’s JVC RS4500. For a bright TV with over 500 nits, this will typically be set to 1 to 2 times the display’s maximum light output. To change this in the “Left Arrow” menu, use left/right arrows to select the Max Light value and up/down arrows to adjust it. If you do not know the screen brightness in nits, you can use the scene I now use as a check. *This is “The Meg” at (about) 1:08:35 where a man is swimming up to the overturned boat. Start at the previous scene, play up to the scene and then pause as the man is treading water very near the boat. Adjust Max Light up and down balancing scene brightness with optimal flesh tone.*


----------



## Ash Sharma

On a separate subject - I watched One Night in Miami and noticed Jaggies (pixels) on Roku - turned on the ATV (I have a ALT32) and had lip sync issue.
Turned back to Roku Ultimate and went into the Menu and set 'Auto Frame Rate' to OFF (It was ON before) and the Jaggies vanished - the picture film like and no lip sync issues with Roku.
It is best to have both ATV and Roku - the streamers are inexpensive in the big picture so best have both.
I also saw issue with some shows not playing in ATMOS on Roku but playing in ATMOS on ATV.
And then the ATV forcing its own DV and processing which Roku does not.


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> Turned back to Roku Ultimate and went into the Menu and set 'Auto Frame Rate' to OFF (It was ON before) and the Jaggies vanished - the picture film like and no lip sync issues with Roku.
> It is best to have both ATV and Roku - the streamers are inexpensive in the big picture so best have both.
> I also saw issue with some shows not playing in ATMOS on Roku but playing in ATMOS on ATV.
> And then the ATV forcing its own DV and processing which Roku does not.


Welcome to the brave new world of video players made by people who seem to be a million miles from understanding they're just supposed to put what's in the stream, on the screen, for the prescribed amount of time. You could never imagine it would be quite such a difficult job 🤦‍♂️


----------



## aguy

Spent the day yesterday tweaking settings on my new lumagen. Had only been using factory defaults until that point. There are a few questions I have. Sorry if they’ve been answered before. 

1. When choosing between the old and nee HDMI microcode it only affects the output of the 18ghz card? I have one 9ghz and one 18ghz card as output so I’m assuming the 9gz card is the same with each microcode. 

2. Auto aspect detection. How long does this usually take for blur ray sources. Is there any speed difference between image only or hdmi and image? I’ve found so far that it is working 90 % of the time but occasionally it doesn’t work and it is too slow for in film changes ( eg Nolan films). Any tips appreciated. If this is as good as the auto aspect gets then I think I’ll turn it off eventually when I set up my crestron to control the lumagen and use aspect ratio that I store in the Kodi metadata to set each movies AR. 

3. Dynamic tone mapping. Wow. This does a really good job. I’ve set it up to map to sdr 2020 for my Sony 550es projector. Using the settings of 33 and 500. My system isn’t calibrated as yet but it will be eventually. It’s still being setup. 

I had everything I tested looking really good. Stunning space scenes in interstellar. Mad max fury colours amazing. And the bright pops of colour in the ghostbusters reboot terrific. 

Then I sat down to watch a movie last night. Divergent. And was actually disappointed. The colours looked a bit washed out and black levels high so they were actually more grey. Additionally the black bars above and below there image ( burned in from the blu ray) were also greyish and funnily enough it failed to trigger auto aspect resolution. I’m suspecting that it is just a poorly mastered HDR movie. The source was rip of the uhd blu ray I made with makemkv. Played with Kodi from a corerlec box that correctly passes the HDR metadata. I’ve read that divergent was some of those early lions gate releases that had 4000 for max light and 0 set for max CLL. Also fact it was an early HDR release makes me think it may just be poor mastering. 

Interested in opinions on that movie and the HDR DTM side of things.

Only other issue is that I’m still getting some hdmi sync failures on my projector when changing frame rates. I suspect it’s my cable and will have to change it but I’ve now set the Kodi box to output menu at 23.98 so most of the time it doesn’t need to change. Only when I play an PAL DVD rip does it change to 50htz. The change from 24 to 50 is usually fine. But the change back from 50hz to 24hz seems to fail about 50% of the time. I suspect I’ll need to change the hdmi cable. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CP850-CLED

For my client's bedroom system where we will keep the nx-7 and add the lumagen/tributaries the sources are
1- ATV4k
2- Hotwire cable box
3- Sony UHD player
3- Zone addition K-Strato C

The audio outputs:
1- Marantz receiver
2- HDMI headphones

Which inputs and how many outputs should be 18gbs? Whatever works best? TIA.


----------



## Ash Sharma

He must have a very accommodating wife - I will be sent to the dog house if I try to install a projector in my Master Bedroom Suite..


----------



## Mike_WI

CP850-CLED said:


> For my client's bedroom system where we will keep the nx-7 and add the lumagen/tributaries the sources are
> 1- ATV4k
> 2- Hotwire cable box
> 3- Sony UHD player
> 3- Zone addition K-Strato C
> 
> The audio outputs:
> 1- Marantz receiver
> 2- HDMI headphones
> 
> Which inputs and how many outputs should be 18gbs? Whatever works best? TIA.


HDMI headphones?


----------



## fatherom

Mike_WI said:


> HDMI headphones?


Problem something like this:









Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Digital Surround Headphones System : Amazon.ca: Electronics


Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Digital Surround Headphones System : Amazon.ca: Electronics



www.amazon.ca





I own a set of these, they're great.


----------



## CP850-CLED

Ash Sharma said:


> He must have a very accommodating wife - I will be sent to the dog house if I try to install a projector in my Master Bedroom Suite..


It helps that he had more than 300 million when they wed.LOL


----------



## Ash Sharma

CP850-CLED said:


> It helps that he had more than 300 million when they wed.LOL


 They do change A LOT once they get married - I am sure he has a got a strong Pre Nup...


----------



## ccool96

CP850-CLED said:


> It helps that he had more than 300 million when they wed.LOL


This install sound very familiar. Is this a job in Miami? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## crtone

Linear Power Supply:

Considering a ZeroZone circuit based linear power supply for my Radiance Pro (three 18G input cards and four outputs; only 2 outputs used: video & audio). There are 4 input devices (Roku ultra, Apple TV 4K, Panasonic Bluray, and OTA tuner ). Radiance drives a JVC RS 2000. Question: will a [email protected] 4A output from the LPS be sufficient for the Radiance Pro?


----------



## Surge2018

Jue Liang said:


> Does your ATV output 24p or 60p? I found with the latest f/w, Lumagen’s calculated maxY almost doubled when playing the same clip at 60P than at 24P, so it would be darker at 60p. I reported this to Patrick last month.


Interesting. ATV is set to match frame rate to content. So 24P for most movies, and the Radiance is set to match the source.


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> I don't think setting maxL for no clipping in a particular scene makes sense. The clipping is a function of bright content coupled with this setting, and not the display, so if everyone did that everyone would have the same result for MaxL, regardless of what their screen nits was (because the clipping would be at same point). I had to dig through the posts, but the info I found about setting MaxL based on that scene said to balance overall scene brightness against skin tones, nothing about clipping. Maybe we're looking at different posts? This was the one I was looking at.


Yes, that’s the post. We are saying the same thing: Jim recommends using that scene to balance overall brightness against skin tones, which is analogous to not clipping whites.


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> once switched manually to another aspect, what do I send using a harmony remote to reset AA detection?


anyone?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> anyone?


Alt-clr disables temporarily, alt-NLS re-enables. Not 100% sure if alt-NLS also re-enables after sticky override. Give it a go and let us know.


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Alt-clr disables temporarily, alt-NLS re-enables. Not 100% sure if alt-NLS also re-enables after sticky override. Give it a go and let us know.


thanks!


----------



## Sittler27

I'm having an issue utilizing the black patterns built into the Lumagen.

I know my JVC NX9+DCR is going to need Brightness set at 0 or maybe -1 likely.
However, even though it is set at 16-235 and my Lumagen RP is also 16-235 output, when i view the reference contrast pattern I need a Brightness on my JVC of -18 to get it set right, which of course I know is not right.

When I then use one of my source components to play Spears/Munsil black patterns, I can set them properly.

Any ideas on what's up with the built-in Lumagen patterns?


----------



## GrCinFan

scrowe said:


> I bought the MP-40 for this exact reason, albeit my install is delayed by a combination of COVID lockdown and wanting to move house. Very interested in how you get on addressing this potential compatibility issue.





scrowe said:


> I bought the MP-40 for this exact reason, albeit my install is delayed by a combination of COVID lockdown and wanting to move house. Very interested in how you get on addressing this potential compatibility issue.


I have now contacted LYNGDORF and alerted them of the "problem" but I am not so sure any more that there is actually any problem to start with!
While trying to find a solution by changing various audio settings on my sources, I stumbled upon the following from the Zappiti Knowledge base, which may provide the answer to my (and your) concern.
_"The previous Zappiti Player models had licences for decoding of HD sound formats. Now, DTS and Dolby deliver DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD decoding licences only for Blu-ray Player due the new BD Forum rules. And in addition, BD Players can't feature BD ISO playback anymore because BD Forum don't let do it. For instance, the Oppo BD Players can't play BD ISO anymore. Dune HD had a patch (unofficial crack) for decoding HD sound in PCM. Zappiti don't. So if you want DTS-HD in bitstream, you should own outpout in HDMI and use HDMI AV Receiver compatible with HD sound. Or, you can buy a HDMI > SPDIF converter box".
I_f I understand this correctly, for Lumagen to be able to passthrough the hd audio signal, it would need to have a license to do that otherwise it would not be able to do it. Now zappiti tells us that id does not have a license and cannot therefore process hd audio directly. To test this, I have gone back to my previous preamp (YAMAHA) and found out that it shows merely "DTS" when playing (in the same setup source to lumagen and lumagen to the preamp) when the source plays DTS HD MA.
So it would seem that we both need to immigrate to the bigger LYNGDORF and change the setup (sources to preamp and then preamp to lumagen) to solve our problem.
By the way, the LYNGDORF's audio is excellent in surround and even more so in stereo.


----------



## bobof

GrCinFan said:


> I have now contacted LYNGDORF and alerted them of the "problem" but I am not so sure any more that there is actually any problem to start with!
> While trying to find a solution by changing various audio settings on my sources, I stumbled upon the following from the Zappiti Knowledge base, which may provide the answer to my (and your) concern.
> _"The previous Zappiti Player models had licences for decoding of HD sound formats. Now, DTS and Dolby deliver DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD decoding licences only for Blu-ray Player due the new BD Forum rules. And in addition, BD Players can't feature BD ISO playback anymore because BD Forum don't let do it. For instance, the Oppo BD Players can't play BD ISO anymore. Dune HD had a patch (unofficial crack) for decoding HD sound in PCM. Zappiti don't. So if you want DTS-HD in bitstream, you should own outpout in HDMI and use HDMI AV Receiver compatible with HD sound. Or, you can buy a HDMI > SPDIF converter box".
> I_f I understand this correctly, for Lumagen to be able to passthrough the hd audio signal, it would need to have a license to do that otherwise it would not be able to do it. Now zappiti tells us that id does not have a license and cannot therefore process hd audio directly. To test this, I have gone back to my previous preamp (YAMAHA) and found out that it shows merely "DTS" when playing (in the same setup source to lumagen and lumagen to the preamp) when the source plays DTS HD MA.
> So it would seem that we both need to immigrate to the bigger LYNGDORF and change the setup (sources to preamp and then preamp to lumagen) to solve our problem.
> By the way, the LYNGDORF's audio is excellent in surround and even more so in stereo.


OK, I'm confused now. When you were saying everything worked fine on the Yamaha, that wasn't right?
You mentioned more players than just this Zappiti. What was the deal there?


----------



## garyolearysteele

GrCinFan said:


> I have now contacted LYNGDORF and alerted them of the "problem" but I am not so sure any more that there is actually any problem to start with!
> While trying to find a solution by changing various audio settings on my sources, I stumbled upon the following from the Zappiti Knowledge base, which may provide the answer to my (and your) concern.
> _"The previous Zappiti Player models had licences for decoding of HD sound formats. Now, DTS and Dolby deliver DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD decoding licences only for Blu-ray Player due the new BD Forum rules. And in addition, BD Players can't feature BD ISO playback anymore because BD Forum don't let do it. For instance, the Oppo BD Players can't play BD ISO anymore. Dune HD had a patch (unofficial crack) for decoding HD sound in PCM. Zappiti don't. So if you want DTS-HD in bitstream, you should own outpout in HDMI and use HDMI AV Receiver compatible with HD sound. Or, you can buy a HDMI > SPDIF converter box".
> I_f I understand this correctly, for Lumagen to be able to passthrough the hd audio signal, it would need to have a license to do that otherwise it would not be able to do it. Now zappiti tells us that id does not have a license and cannot therefore process hd audio directly. To test this, I have gone back to my previous preamp (YAMAHA) and found out that it shows merely "DTS" when playing (in the same setup source to lumagen and lumagen to the preamp) when the source plays DTS HD MA.
> So it would seem that we both need to immigrate to the bigger LYNGDORF and change the setup (sources to preamp and then preamp to lumagen) to solve our problem.
> By the way, the LYNGDORF's audio is excellent in surround and even more so in stereo.


Sorry if I’ve missed the point, I feel I may have 😂. I’m passing all audio formats through the RP; Atmos, DTS-HD, TrueHD, DTSX etc including from a Zappiti, and the AVR is an Arcam. I would think licensing would be for decoding it rather than passing it on

Gary


----------



## Mark Burton

garyolearysteele said:


> Sorry if I’ve missed the point, I feel I may have 😂. I’m passing all audio formats through the RP; Atmos, DTS-HD, TrueHD, DTSX etc including from a Zappiti, and the AVR is an Arcam. I would think licensing would be for decoding it rather than passing it on
> 
> Gary


agreed, I am too.
I’m using a trinnov but it definitely sees the codec as it should do.


----------



## GrCinFan

Mark Burton said:


> agreed, I am too.
> I’m using a trinnov but it definitely sees the codec as it should do.


Thank you both for the clarification, It is loud and clear.
Boboff, I thought the YAMAHA read the signals but today I checked and I saw simple DTS when it should be DTS HD MA. I shall double check and I shall come back.


----------



## mhafner

DTM has apparently no concept of subtitles. It does not know they should be ignored for DTM mapping. As a result as soon as I have subtitles on (usually they are top white) the rest of the image may be dimmed for no good reason since subtitles don't need to be protected from clipping and highlight detail loss. They could be safely ignored and left at top white.


----------



## bobof

mhafner said:


> DTM has apparently no concept of subtitles. It does not know they should be ignored for DTM mapping. As a result as soon as I have subtitles on (usually they are top white) the rest of the image may be dimmed for no good reason since subtitles don't need to be protected from clipping and highlight detail loss. They could be safely ignored and left at top white.


I don't know for sure, but it would sound like a player bug to be honest if subtitles are being rendered at 100% in HDR (ie 10,000 nits).
Have you looked into what the pixel values are? What player are we talking about?
Ignore the above, I see this is a common complaint. It's bad mastering of the discs, the best place to fix it is the player. Appears some players do allow you to override subtitle brightness with more sensible values, maybe use one of those players.


----------



## Jue Liang

bobof said:


> I don't know for sure, but it would sound like a player bug to be honest if subtitles are being rendered at 100% in HDR (ie 10,000 nits).
> Have you looked into what the pixel values are? What player are we talking about?
> Ignore the above, I see this is a common complaint. It's bad mastering of the discs, the best place to fix it is the player. Appears some players do allow you to override subtitle brightness with more sensible values, maybe use one of those players.


Oppo's subtitles and any OSD info are 10,000nits, which mess up the DTM. With Panasonic players you can change the brightness of subtitiles, but it has other issues also messing up DTM. I talked to Pat about this last year, and he said bright subtitles DO throw off DTM, and he hasn't come up with a good way to correct that yet.


----------



## Erod

I'm two weeks in since purchasing my Lumagen, and I'm getting it dialed in more and more with the RS3000.

So far, the most impressive thing I've noticed is what it can do with regular 1080p material, even with streaming. Wow. I watched Professor and the Madman, and it looked like 4K HDR. I have everything set to play in bt2020, so this thing seems to be tone-mapping anything I throw at it.

I'm even playing it at low lamp with max light set to 700, low ratio set to -34 and high ratio set to -25. Stunning picture. 

You appreciate the Lumagen the more time you spend with it.


----------



## MOberhardt

GrCinFan said:


> Thank you both for the clarification, It is loud and clear.
> Boboff, I thought the YAMAHA read the signals but today I checked and I saw simple DTS when it should be DTS HD MA. I shall double check and I shall come back.


Is it possible the EDID on the Lumagen is somehow setting a flag on audio capability? I mean isn't that the whole idea of the lossless codecs having an embedded lossy track is that for a legacy receiver it would send the embedded lossy instead of the lossless? So if the player got an edid saying legacy, it'd do that?



mhafner said:


> DTM has apparently no concept of subtitles. It does not know they should be ignored for DTM mapping. As a result as soon as I have subtitles on (usually they are top white) the rest of the image may be dimmed for no good reason since subtitles don't need to be protected from clipping and highlight detail loss. They could be safely ignored and left at top white.


I'd love Lumagen to handle subtitles, but I'd love it if it could do it like Panasonic can for subtitle streams, and dim them. Bright subtitles are a curse in the HDR era (the idea of a 100% white ,subtitle is just stupid, but sadly a reality) and the main reason I default all my disc playing to the Panasonic. If I have to use something else for playback or the subs are burnt in, it is a nuisance.


----------



## scrowe

GrCinFan said:


> Thank you both for the clarification, It is loud and clear.
> Boboff, I thought the YAMAHA read the signals but today I checked and I saw simple DTS when it should be DTS HD MA. I shall double check and I shall come back.


I think Jim has said at some point the Lumagen just passes on the Audio exactly as it receives it, albeit I’m sure it’s not as simplistic as that. I think the thing to do is try each device you have, set to bitstream wherever possible, so that the original audio content is passed to the Lyngdorf, after all you’d want your super expensive Audio processor to do anything related to ...errr..processing audio.


----------



## Erod

mhafner said:


> DTM has apparently no concept of subtitles. It does not know they should be ignored for DTM mapping. As a result as soon as I have subtitles on (usually they are top white) the rest of the image may be dimmed for no good reason since subtitles don't need to be protected from clipping and highlight detail loss. They could be safely ignored and left at top white.


@jrp , can this be addressed?


----------



## sor

scrowe said:


> I think Jim has said at some point the Lumagen just passes on the Audio exactly as it receives it, albeit I’m sure it’s not as simplistic as that. I think the thing to do is try each device you have, set to bitstream wherever possible, so that the original audio content is passed to the Lyngdorf, after all you’d want your super expensive Audio processor to do anything related to ...errr..processing audio.


Even if the Lumagen is a passthrough, it might be an EDID issue as mentioned above. I noticed that my Apple TV plugged into Lumagen tries to send Atmos, which my stand-in audio processor can’t handle. It detects it as Dolby TrueHD but plays no sound. Plugged directly into the processor the Apple TV understands it isn’t supported and sends 7.1 audio.


----------



## MOberhardt

sor said:


> Even if the Lumagen is a passthrough, it might be an EDID issue as mentioned above. I noticed that my Apple TV plugged into Lumagen tries to send Atmos, which my stand-in audio processor can’t handle. It detects it as Dolby TrueHD but plays no sound. Plugged directly into the processor the Apple TV understands it isn’t supported and sends 7.1 audio.


Now that has me confused. An Apple TV doesn't send TrueHD ever. It doesn't have a bitstream option. All you will get is PCM (and that includes Atmos, which is dome somehow using Dolby MAT encoding on PCM).


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## Sittler27

Sittler27 said:


> I'm having an issue utilizing the black patterns built into the Lumagen.
> 
> I know my JVC NX9+DCR is going to need Brightness set at 0 or maybe -1 likely.
> However, even though it is set at 16-235 and my Lumagen RP is also 16-235 output, when i view the reference contrast pattern I need a Brightness on my JVC of -18 to get it set right, which of course I know is not right.
> 
> When I then use one of my source components to play Spears/Munsil black patterns, I can set them properly.
> 
> Any ideas on what's up with the built-in Lumagen patterns?


Just thought I'd ask again...


----------



## sor

MOberhardt said:


> Now that has me confused. An Apple TV doesn't send TrueHD ever. It doesn't have a bitstream option. All you will get is PCM (and that includes Atmos, which is dome somehow using Dolby MAT encoding on PCM).


I’m just saying the receiver detected whatever was being sent as TrueHD, the little blue light came on. Not sure what was actually going on. When I disabled Atmos on the Apple TV that fixed it, so my assumption is that Apple TV saw the Lumagen and sent audio that my receiver couldn’t deal with.


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## jrp

Concerning DTM and subtitles in the active image:

It would be very nice if all players would have a level setting for subtitles to reduce their brightness and minimize their effect on DTM.

Patrick and I have discussed adding a "mask" feature for DTM where the user can program areas of the screen to be ignored for DTM. Not simple, but might be something to address in the future. Pipeline precision is next on our to-do list. Then PiP/PoP. Then it will be a discussion of what is most needed. s always we will ask users for most desired feature.

There is a big issue with DTM "mask" of having to program the masking areas and how many are needed. Hopefully would start with two areas if we implemented this. The two most common cases seem to be subtitles, and station logos. Logos tend to be on the lower right. So maybe we just mask that area if enabled. For subtitles perhaps a slightly larger than expected area might meet the need for most/all subtitles.

Certainly an interesting feature. Just not on the to-do list yet.


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## jrp

Concerning Audio EDID:

I usually recommend using the special direct code "MENU 0943" to "manually enable common audio formats." However this enable ATMOS and all formats. So you should not use this if your audio processor does not support all formats.

We have a couple variants of this command:

Recent updates have new direct audio EDID codes that do not need the confirmation step (092019 and later):

MENU 0745 for 2ch 44.1 and 2ch48
MENU 0746 for 2ch44.1, 2ch48 and DD51
MENU 0747 for common formats but no ATMOS, and no DTX X
MENU 0748 for common formats with ATMOS and DTX X

When you enter these codes, they become active without the “accept” step. Still need to do a Save.

Note that MENU 0748 has the same effect as MENU 0943 but without the accept step. The MENU 0745 is good if you only can support 2 channel such as with a HDMI to analog audio DAC.

Make sure to Save your changes.

================================= 

If none of these work you need to:

Have Output 1 drive the audio processor so the Pro will read its audio EDID.
Use "Normal Passback Output 1 EDID mode" which is the default, or if you entered MENU 0943 already, do it again to "restore normal ...." (or something like it), and then Save.

If the audio processor EDID is "well formed" the Pro parses it and passes back all the audio formats it supports. If your audio processor has holes in its audio format support, this is the way to go.


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## jrp

Concerning DD, TrueHD, Master Audio, etc, licensing:

The Radiance Pro does not try to interpret the audio format. It just passes the bits. So, Lumagen does not need to license the various audio formats. To the Radiance Pro they are just "bits passing in the night." or if you prefer "the darkened theater" 

The Radiance Pro does reduce the HDMI output clock jitter on the audio output. This is not processing, but it can make the audio sound better than a direct connection to the source because of the reduced jitter.


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## Gordon Fraser

Sittler27 said:


> Just thought I'd ask again...


Need more info. How are you setting black level with the patterns. Are you playing content when trying to set it. If so what content. Are you using reference or adjustable patterns? There is nothing wrong with the lumagen test patterns so it's got to to be something to do with how you are trying to impliment them i think


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> Concerning DTM and subtitles in the active image:
> 
> It would be very nice if all players would have a level setting for subtitles to reduce their brightness and minimize their effect on DTM.
> 
> Patrick and I have discussed adding a "mask" feature for DTM where the user can program areas of the screen to be ignored for DTM. Not simple, but might be something to address in the future. Pipeline precision is next on our to-do list. Then PiP/PoP. Then it will be a discussion of what is most needed. s always we will ask users for most desired feature.
> 
> There is a big issue with DTM "mask" of having to program the masking areas and how many are needed. Hopefully would start with two areas if we implemented this. The two most common cases seem to be subtitles, and station logos. Logos tend to be on the lower right. So maybe we just mask that area if enabled. For subtitles perhaps a slightly larger than expected area might meet the need for most/all subtitles.
> 
> Certainly an interesting feature. Just not on the to-do list yet.


Yes,. It incredible that for disc players, only Panasonic supports luminance on subtitles. It should be mandatory....

Subtitles for uhds have often irritated me. Aside from the brightness the don't consider, they all seem to be 1080p. Un aliased... Every one I've looked at tsmuxer shows as 1080p. And when viewed they look it on a projector


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## steelman1991

@MOberhardt - did you resolve your audio drop-out issues with your new cables.

Sorry if I missed an earlier post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

steelman1991 said:


> @MOberhardt - did you resolve your audio drop-out issues with your new cables.
> 
> Sorry if I missed an earlier post.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Video dropout.

And yes the cable fixed it 100 percent. Thank goodness. I didn't want to do without during a Lumagen repair...


----------



## Sittler27

Gordon Fraser said:


> Need more info. How are you setting black level with the patterns. Are you playing content when trying to set it. If so what content. Are you using reference or adjustable patterns? There is nothing wrong with the lumagen test patterns so it's got to to be something to do with how you are trying to impliment them i think


Reference patterns, the one with the 4-5 stripes down the middle going from -4 to +4 black. But the same one on the adjustable has the same result anyways.

I am not playing content, just trying to view that pattern and it's much to light at 0 or -1 brightness. Needs -18 to set it right as per it's instructions.

I know it's something I've implemented, but if my projector is putting out 16-235, and the RP is set to output 16-235, and the patterns are internal to the RP (no source range to worry about), then what other setting could it possible be?


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## Gordon Fraser

Sittler27. What is your HDMI input on your N9 set to? for video levels?


----------



## Sittler27

Gordon Fraser said:


> Sittler27. What is your HDMI input on your N9 set to? for video levels?


16-235 - isn't that video levels?


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## Gordon Fraser

yes it is...try putting the projector to AUTO for input Signal and see if there is any change. Also press OK on Lumagen remote and see what it says the output signal type is. There is definitely a miss match going on somewhere


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> Reference patterns, the one with the 4-5 stripes down the middle going from -4 to +4 black. But the same one on the adjustable has the same result anyways.
> 
> I am not playing content, just trying to view that pattern and it's much to light at 0 or -1 brightness. Needs -18 to set it right as per it's instructions.
> 
> I know it's something I've implemented, but if my projector is putting out 16-235, and the RP is set to output 16-235, and the patterns are internal to the RP (no source range to worry about), then what other setting could it possible be?



Could you post a picture of the RP info screen (OK button)?


----------



## Sittler27

Gordon Fraser said:


> yes it is...try putting the projector to AUTO for input Signal and see if there is any change. Also press OK on Lumagen remote and see what it says the output signal type is. There is definitely a miss match going on somewhere





jbrinegar said:


> Could you post a picture of the RP info screen (OK button)?


Here are pics of the JVC menu, the RP "OK" menus, and the pattern of what I'm seeing while JVC is set to brightness= 0 (doesn't show well, but can see all the bars are visible.


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> Here are pics of the JVC menu, the RP "OK" menus, and the pattern of what I'm seeing while JVC is set to brightness= 0 (doesn't show well, but can see all the bars are visible.


That looks correct to me, no? You can see +1% to +4% like you should be able to (and -4% to -1% are not visible) from what I can tell. Ill compare it to mine when I get home...


----------



## Sittler27

jbrinegar said:


> That looks correct to me, no? You can see +1% to +4% like you should be able to (and -4% to -1% are not visible) from what I can tell. Ill compare it to mine when I get home...


While I'm not completely sure which of the strips is + or -, I can say that I can see ALL of the vertical stripes down the center, and they only start to disappear when I hit -18 on my JVC's brightness control.


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> While I'm not completely sure which of the strips is + or -, I can say that I can see ALL of the vertical stripes down the center, and they only start to disappear when I hit -18 on my JVC's brightness control.


Gotcha, from the picture I could only see the 4 lines and none to the left of the 4. I know I run my brightness at -1, anything more than that makes the one of those 4 lines disappear


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> While I'm not completely sure which of the strips is + or -, I can say that I can see ALL of the vertical stripes down the center, and they only start to disappear when I hit -18 on my JVC's brightness control.


How many is "All"? See the image below from the manual.


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> While I'm not completely sure which of the strips is + or -, I can say that I can see ALL of the vertical stripes down the center, and they only start to disappear when I hit -18 on my JVC's brightness control.


just to make sure we’re on the same page, you should be able to see the lines I circled. And you’re saying you can see all 10 lines, right?

EDIT: I was trying to circle the right four lines (but didnt do a good job) representing the +1,+2, +3, and +4%. I think the fifth line would be hardest to see near black. I can barely see that line with my nose to the screen. Those should def be visible from top to bottom


----------



## Sittler27

jbrinegar said:


> just to make sure we’re on the same page, you should be able to see the lines I circled. And you’re saying you can see all 10 lines, right?
> 
> EDIT: I was trying to circle the right four lines (but didnt do a good job) representing the +1,+2, +3, and +4%. I think the fifth line would be hardest to see near black. I can barely see that line with my nose to the screen. Those should def be visible from top to bottom
> View attachment 3081555


Ok, wow, so I can ONLY see the 4 lines from the right. The rest of the lines I cannot see no matter how far up I crank the brightness. So I guess it's working, as I didn't realize there were that many lines there.

I've set brightness to -1 where I can see the +1 bar (4th from right) just barely if I squint from my MVP.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Ok, wow, so I can ONLY see the 4 lines from the right. The rest of the lines I cannot see no matter how far up I crank the brightness. So I guess it's working, as I didn't realize there were that many lines there.
> 
> I've set brightness to -1 where I can see the +1 bar (4th from right) just barely if I squint from my MVP.


I must admit, for all my playing about with that test pattern yesterday, I couldn't actually get the bars below 0 to ever show. I don't think it matters though, it just means >something< is clipping below video black (I wonder if there has been a change in behaviour of this at some point in the Radiance? Or maybe I'm just not understanding the pipeline fully).

Not that it matters; once you have the background at Optical black, then all you need to do is make the next steps just visible*

* if the projector has a very high contrast ratio, it is possible that "just" visible is too dark. Ideally you'd measure what the 1% looks like on a full field and check it followed the desired gamma.


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> I must admit, for all my playing about with that test pattern yesterday, I couldn't actually get the bars below 0 to ever show. I don't think it matters though, it just means >something< is clipping below video black (I wonder if there has been a change in behaviour of this at some point in the Radiance? Or maybe I'm just not understanding the pipeline fully).
> 
> Not that it matters; once you have the background at Optical black, then all you need to do is make the next steps just visible*
> 
> * if the projector has a very high contrast ratio, it is possible that "just" visible is too dark. Ideally you'd measure what the 1% looks like on a full field and check it followed the desired gamma.


Without measuring, I do find -1 on my JVC NX9 to sometimes "seem" like it's crushing black, but it is the right setting by the pattern.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I must admit, for all my playing about with that test pattern yesterday, I couldn't actually get the bars below 0 to ever show. I don't think it matters though, it just means >something< is clipping below video black (I wonder if there has been a change in behaviour of this at some point in the Radiance? Or maybe I'm just not understanding the pipeline fully).
> 
> Not that it matters; once you have the background at Optical black, then all you need to do is make the next steps just visible*
> 
> * if the projector has a very high contrast ratio, it is possible that "just" visible is too dark. Ideally you'd measure what the 1% looks like on a full field and check it followed the desired gamma.


Unless you have your JVC set to full range (PC levels) it is ALWAYS going to be clipping below 0 as it should. The JVC only has Full, Normal and Super White, and all of them clip below digital 16 except Full which is for PC level playback.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Unless you have your JVC set to full range (PC levels) it is ALWAYS going to be clipping below 0 as it should. The JVC only has Full, Normal and Super White, and all of them clip below digital 16 except Full which is for PC level playback.


I think they actually call it Standard, Enhanced and Superwhite (at least on my X7900); I did actually try flipping to Enhanced yesterday and still couldn't figure out how to make them show.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make them show because I want them, more that I was trying to figure out what @Sittler27 was seeing and I couldn't make the pattern behave how I thought it should.

I'll have a play tonight again. It's just in the "interesting trivia" stage for me at the moment.


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## bobof

OK, got it @Kris Deering . with the JVC set to Enhanced, if the Lumagen is in 709 input mode the pattern behaves as you expect with all bars visible until you reduce the brightness, but in 2020 input mode you lose the -ve bars (I must have had some HDR playing at the time when I was watching yesterday, or a player with 2020 menus). Makes sense I guess as I understand non-video levels are illegal in HDR.

Anyway, that's the end of that mystery!


----------



## docrog

I'm really pleased to report that replacing my Yamaha RX-A3080 with the Denon AVR-X6700H has continued to provide me with the same rock solid video path (Video Sources -> AVR -> RP -> NX7); the handshake time seems slightly decreased (compared to the Yamaha) when I chose the Denon's *NON *eARC port. There's no question that being able to have access to the GUI was essential in performing the set up and Audyssey calibration as well as for taming pesky lip sync issues. The recent Denon firmware update (enabling DTS:X Pro and Auro-3D for music) has honestly improved the immersive experience that 7.2.6 provides compared with 7.2.4 with both native object based audio (Atmos & DTS:X) and upmixed legacy video tracks and 2 channel music. Unprocessed video passthrough means that my RP can continue to perform upscaling, edge enhancements & DTM (etc.) as had previously been the case. I'm relieved that there don't appear to be any video conflicts between the X6700H and the RP.


----------



## Surge2018

MOberhardt said:


> Now that has me confused. An Apple TV doesn't send TrueHD ever. It doesn't have a bitstream option. All you will get is PCM (and that includes Atmos, which is dome somehow using Dolby MAT encoding on PCM).


I get bitstream Dolby Atmos out of the ATV into my Denon. If you’re passing audio through the Lumagen, try the menu command for resetting/detecting audio: Menu 0943


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> I get bitstream Dolby Atmos out of the ATV into my Denon. If you’re passing audio through the Lumagen, try the menu command for resetting/detecting audio: Menu 0943


Yes, it is Dolby MAT as @MOberhardt says; not TrueHD with Atmos.


----------



## crtone

Beamis said:


> I will second the above. On my recent installation, I had 2 meter Tributary cables with all my sources except for a 10 meter Ruipro cable to my Sony 695ES projector. This Audioquest fiber cable is 4K 18G and it was the issue. Kris D did my remote install and prior to my install he said the Ruipro could be an issue. Kris was right, as well as Jim, Ash, LJG and many others! The Ruipro worked fine with my Denon and projector prior to the Lumagen 4242 with no video/audio issues. However, after adding the Lumagen, I had issues with handshake as well as video and audio.
> 
> Easy fix- Tributaries UHDV-Vega 10 meter was shipped out, had it wall fished and now everything works flawlessly.


Where did you buy the UHDV-Vega from ?


----------



## sor

I have a Ruipro in my master bedroom that works for the most part but occasionally will go into a dropout/resound loop and I have to restart everything to get it to stop. Having seen other active cables like the Tributaries UHDV and the supposedly 48gbit Bullet Train cables, they have power injectors via USB port, which makes me wonder if part of the occasional Ruipro issues have to do with some devices not always providing enough HDMI power for the active cables. Then again maybe I just have a bad cable or device somewhere in the loop.


----------



## dlinsley

sor said:


> which makes me wonder if part of the occasional Ruipro issues have to do with some devices not always providing enough HDMI power for the active cables.


I had dropouts with both an Arcam and Anthem processor with the RuiPro, though never when connected to the Radiance, which an injector cured.


----------



## riddle

Hi, does someone here was has problem with overheating? Yesterday I configured Lumagen in my friend's audio showroom with JVC N7 and I found that his unit was incredibly overheating. At 109 Celsius it reported a red message to contact the dealer or manufacturer. So we tested another same unit that I had there for his customer and there was no problem. Maybe it's a fan or some faulty FPPA. I immediately wrote to the seller about the problem, so I'm waiting for a response. Any help is
welcomed.


----------



## jrp

riddle said:


> Hi, does someone here was has problem with overheating? Yesterday I configured Lumagen in my friend's audio showroom with JVC N7 and I found that his unit was incredibly overheating. At 109 Celsius it reported a red message to contact the dealer or manufacturer. So we tested another same unit that I had there for his customer and there was no problem. Maybe it's a fan or some faulty FPPA. I immediately wrote to the seller about the problem, so I'm waiting for a response. Any help is
> welcomed.


Either the fan is defective, or it is possible the correct fan mode was not set when we built the unit.

Please email sales at lumagen.com or call us at 503-574-2211. We should be able to get this sorted.


----------



## jrp

Lumagen, Inc. is excited to announce the latest addition to the Radiance Pro family of 4k video processors, the Radiance Pro 5348. The Radiance Pro 5348 takes the ultimate video processor to the next level by minimizing output-jitter and electrical noise. The Radiance Pro 5348 has ten 18 GHz inputs, two 18 GHz outputs, and one audio-only output, in a 1U case. This is a fixed configuration.

Rather than go into details here, I have written a white-paper on the new Radiance Pro 5348 and it is attached to this post.

I am sure there will be questions, but I tried to cover the most likely ones in the FAQ in this introduction paper. Please feel free to post questions, or email them to support at Lumagen (.com).


----------



## woofer

jrp said:


> Lumagen, Inc. is excited to announce the latest addition to the Radiance Pro family of 4k video processors, the Radiance Pro 5348.


ohhh !!!  Well Done...


----------



## Sandel

jrp said:


> Lumagen, Inc. is excited to announce the latest addition to the Radiance Pro family of 4k video processors, the Radiance Pro 5348.


Cool! Will there be an upgrade path, or is it more of a "trade in" option?
Prize tag?


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Lumagen, Inc. is excited to announce the latest addition to the Radiance Pro family of 4k video processors, the Radiance Pro 5348. The Radiance Pro 5348 takes the ultimate video processor to the next level by minimizing output-jitter and electrical noise. The Radiance Pro 5348 has ten 18 GHz inputs, two 18 GHz outputs, and one audio-only output, in a 1U case. This is a fixed configuration.
> 
> Rather than go into details here, I have written a white-paper on the new Radiance Pro 5348 and it is attached to this post.
> 
> I am sure there will be questions, but I tried to cover the most likely ones in the FAQ in this introduction paper. Please feel free to post questions, or email them to support at Lumagen (.com).


Congrats on the new launch! Looks like a great product. Look forward to hearing about the new genlock stuff in the fullness of time if it is fruitful. Nice having 5 discrete HDMI chips for fastest possible switching for 5 sources, interesting to see the extensive use of the canned SMPSU modules.

Given the same FPGA device, and that those of us with 42xx units can never use PIP (and very likely aren't using keystone) - might you consider to also offer paid upgrade to whatever extra functions are to be made available in that different FPGA load? 

You mentioned better precision being something that might use that FPGA gate space - is that over and above the currently discussed extra precision that was mooted on the current units as a coming development?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

On the 5348 front i've had mine here for a while and have been pretty amazed at the improvement in audio quality in my very basic office system. I had to put a 4242 unit in to the system to test a couple days ago and i forgot i'd taken the 5348 out and i was wondering why the sound seemed to have gone "woolly"...then i spotted the 5348 on the shelf and it made sense....


----------



## MDesigns

Gordon Fraser said:


> On the 5348 front i've had mine here for a while and have been pretty amazed at the improvement in audio quality in my very basic office system. I had to put a 4242 unit in to the system to test a couple days ago and i forgot i'd taken the 5348 out and i was wondering why the sound seemed to have gone "woolly"...then i spotted the 5348 on the shelf and it made sense....


Is it more like the 5348 making the sound better, or the 4242 making the sound worse? I mean how does it sound straight from the source?


----------



## woofer

Gordon Fraser said:


> On the 5348 front i've had mine here for a while and have been pretty amazed at the improvement in audio quality in my very basic office system. I had to put a 4242 unit in to the system to test a couple days ago and i forgot i'd taken the 5348 out and i was wondering why the sound seemed to have gone "woolly"...then i spotted the 5348 on the shelf and it made sense....


----------



## Gordon Fraser

MDesigns said:


> Is it more like the 5348 making the sound better, or the 4242 making the sound worse? I mean how does it sound straight from the source?


The 5348 makes the sound better. I get increased dynamics, i think through a lowering of noise floor. This makes instrumentation and voices clearer and easier to follow. I was honestly not expecting it in this system.


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> Is it more like the 5348 making the sound better, or the 4242 making the sound worse? I mean how does it sound straight from the source?


We get comments on a fairly regular basis that using the 424X and 444X outputs for audio to the audio processor makes the sound better than direct from sources to the audio processor (as mentioned in the white paper on the 5348). This is due to the jitter being lower for the 4XXX output than the sources, and often significantly lower.

The Radiance Pro 5348 takes this quality advantage of running audio through the 4XXX units, and significantly increases it versus sources directly connected to the audio processor.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Congrats on the new launch! Looks like a great product. Look forward to hearing about the new genlock stuff in the fullness of time if it is fruitful. Nice having 5 discrete HDMI chips for fastest possible switching for 5 sources, interesting to see the extensive use of the canned SMPSU modules.
> 
> Given the same FPGA device, and that those of us with 42xx units can never use PIP (and very likely aren't using keystone) - might you consider to also offer paid upgrade to whatever extra functions are to be made available in that different FPGA load?
> 
> You mentioned better precision being something that might use that FPGA gate space - is that over and above the currently discussed extra precision that was mooted on the current units as a coming development?


Thanks for the kind words. I am personally excited having the 5348 now. Honestly, a big part of this is my own personal enjoyment listening to some pretty awesome audio through the 5348 and the Trinnov Altitude16 in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I have started to buy more concert videos for our Strato and have been listening to a lot more music of late, compared to before the 5348.

FYI: The "cans" you see are Laird Technologies Faraday cages placed over the same DC-to-DC switchers used in the 4XXX series. I prefer DC-DC regulators be "on-board" rather than in a hybrid module. The Laird Faraday cages can reduce radiated EMI from the DC-DC switchers by over 60 dB. While EMI is not directly correlated to the output jitter, I believe reducing EMI is part of the "lower jitter" equation, and also help lower the electrical noise floor for frequencies that affect audio content.

If we do a special FPGA load for the 5XXX we will consider making it available for the 4XXX models, for a fee. This would be a 4k centric version, which might change the status of, not only vertical-keystone, and PiP/PoP, but Darbee as well. So those who have a lot of 1080 and lower resolution content my not be interested. The current work for the pipeline enhancements needs to be completed and then we can know more about available gates in the FPGA. The changes for the proposed special load would further improve pipeline precision beyond the current work, and perhaps allow us to consider additional features. Any such special release is a long way out and may never happen. That's all I can say at the moment.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I am personally excited having the 5348 now. Honestly, a big part of this is my own personal enjoyment listening to some pretty awesome audio through the 5348 and the Trinnov Altitude16 in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I have started to buy more concert videos for our Strato and have been listening to a lot more music of late, compared to before the 5348.
> 
> FYI: The "cans" you see are Laird Technologies Faraday cages placed over the same DC-to-DC switchers used in the 4XXX series. I prefer DC-DC regulators be "on-board" rather than in a hybrid module. The Laird Faraday cages can reduce radiated EMI from the DC-DC switchers by over 60 dB. While EMI is not directly correlated to the output jitter, I believe reducing EMI is part of the "lower jitter" equation, and also help lower the electrical noise floor for frequencies that affect audio content.
> 
> If we do a special FPGA load for the 5XXX we will consider making it available for the 4XXX models, for a fee. This would be a 4k centric version, which might change the status of, not only vertical-keystone, and PiP/PoP, but Darbee as well. So those who have a lot of 1080 and lower resolution content my not be interested. The current work for the pipeline enhancements needs to be completed and then we can know more about available gates in the FPGA. The changes for the proposed special load would further improve pipeline precision beyond the current work, and perhaps allow us to consider additional features. Any such special release is a long way out and may never happen. That's all I can say at the moment.


Glad it sounds like the improvements have paid off. 

That's neat, I couldn't see from the perspective of the photo if they were modules with cans on, or cans on top of the main PCB. I might look into those for some of the work stuff I do; one board in particular has a LOT of DCDC converters on it...

Certainly would be interested in the FPGA load related upgrade when the time comes, nice to hear though it's planned as a subsequent update after the currently planned precision one.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I am personally excited having the 5348 now. Honestly, a big part of this is my own personal enjoyment listening to some pretty awesome audio through the 5348 and the Trinnov Altitude16 in the Lumagen Demo Theater. I have started to buy more concert videos for our Strato and have been listening to a lot more music of late, compared to before the 5348.
> 
> FYI: The "cans" you see are Laird Technologies Faraday cages placed over the same DC-to-DC switchers used in the 4XXX series. I prefer DC-DC regulators be "on-board" rather than in a hybrid module. The Laird Faraday cages can reduce radiated EMI from the DC-DC switchers by over 60 dB. While EMI is not directly correlated to the output jitter, I believe reducing EMI is part of the "lower jitter" equation, and also help lower the electrical noise floor for frequencies that affect audio content.
> 
> If we do a special FPGA load for the 5XXX we will consider making it available for the 4XXX models, for a fee. This would be a 4k centric version, which might change the status of, not only vertical-keystone, and PiP/PoP, but Darbee as well. So those who have a lot of 1080 and lower resolution content my not be interested. The current work for the pipeline enhancements needs to be completed and then we can know more about available gates in the FPGA. The changes for the proposed special load would further improve pipeline precision beyond the current work, and perhaps allow us to consider additional features. Any such special release is a long way out and may never happen. That's all I can say at the moment.


Seems like obtaining a better sonic result would push me to upgrade my current Pro. I've far more invested in the audio side of the AV system (Anthem D2V processor, Theta amp, Revel Salon speakers, Transparent cabling, etc.) versus the Lumagen Pro and JVC RS3000. Will be interested on upgrade offers upcoming.


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> Seems like obtaining a better sonic result would push me to upgrade my current Pro. I've far more invested in the audio side of the AV system (Anthem D2V processor, Theta amp, Revel Salon speakers, Transparent cabling, etc.) versus the Lumagen Pro and JVC RS3000. Will be interested on upgrade offers upcoming.


If audio nirvana is what you are after you should consider a trinnov.


----------



## Mike_WI

Mark Burton said:


> If audio nirvana is what you are after you should consider a trinnov.


I was wondering about Lumagen RadiancePro 5348, Trinnov (vs others), as well as linear power supplies and other tweaks.

If building a system from scratch and without financial limitations, could do all of the above.


----------



## cdnscg

What's the difference and benefits of having outputs which are 18Ghz vs 9Ghz?


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> If audio nirvana is what you are after you should consider a trinnov.


Maybe but I've only a 5.1 setup and it would appear I'd be wasting much of what the Trinnov offers. And it's not a trivial upgrade.


----------



## jrp

cdnscg said:


> What's the difference and benefits of having outputs which are 18Ghz vs 9Ghz?


For source to the Radiance Pro you generally need 18 GHz for HDR sources, and you can use 9 GHz for non-HDR sources, or 18 GHz.

Slightly different on the output side. We made a significant effort for the 9 GHz 4k60 output dither to make this visually the same as an 18 GHz 4k60 12-bit output. In my testing we have succeeded. I have compared difficult HDR content at 4k60 with one at 18GHz and one at 9GHz output from a Radiance Pro 4446+ going the two HDMI inputs on the Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS4500. I could not find a scene where there was a perceptible difference between the 9G an 18G output cards at 4k60. Also note that for 24 Hertz content output at 24 Hertz both the 18 GHz and 9 GHz output cards run at 9 GHz. So for 24 Hertz there is no difference.

The 9 GHz output card has a functionality benefit in that it has slower output edge rates and output EQ designed for 9 GHz. In most system 18 GHz output work very well. However, there are systems with marginal projector inputs where using a 9 GHz output card is more robust.

If you have a projector with a good 18 GHz input (e.g. JVC RS3000), and a good cable from the Radiance Pro to the projector (e.g. Tributaries UHDV "Vega") then 18 GHz works well. If you have a projector with a marginal HDMI input, then IMO you are better off with a 9 GHz output. You will have more reliable connectivity, with IMO no visible difference.


----------



## Hitechee

I've had my new 4444+ for 12 days and could use some input. I've been trying to address a combination of video stutter on a couple sources and lip sync issues. I should start off by saying I have the video output connected to Output 2 (9 Ghz) since the default 18 Ghz output 4 had issues syncing with my JVC RS400 projector. (I have an active Monoprice 40ft 18gbos cable, but not fiber optic). I know there has been significant discussion of upgrading cables for audio and other dropout issues, but that isn't the specific issue here. However, if people have similar experiences that were fixed by cable upgrades, that would be good to hear. 

Per recommendations, I hooked up everything from Source to Lumagen to projector. Anyway, after I connected up the Lumagen the audio was way ahead of the video and I dialed in 276ms of audio delay in my Denon AVR-X4300H receiver. I'm going through this because the audio delay can be set per receiver input, but with the Lumagen switching all the sources, the audio delay is applied per all sources. 

After I thought I tamed the audio delay, I tackled video stutter issues I was seeing on the Roku and Tivo Roamio. From what i could tell, sources that were output from the Lumagen at the same frame rate as the input looked good, that those that did not, had video issues. In particular, I had issues with both my Tivo Roamio video and Roku video. The Tivo was outputting 1080i at 59.94 Hz and the Lumgagen was outputting at 3840x2160 24p. When I changed the output mode for the Tivo input to Auto 2 resulting in 3840x2160p at 59.94Hz output, the picture was drastically improved. (I also changed the Input Control Enhance to enable Deinterlace although this alone didn't seem to make much differece by itself.) Unfortunately, it also changed the audio delay, so now I have a slight lipsync issue again with this source, but the 23.98 sources are still fine. Similarly, for the Roku with an input of 3840x2160p at 59.94 Hz I changed the output to Auto 2 resulting in an output of 3840x2160p at 59.94Hz and no longer have video stutter.

As I write this, I now realize I should be able to fix the audio delay in the TIvo by delaying the audio more (which delays all sources) and add video delay through the Lumagen only to appropriate source(s) to make up for the increased audio delay.

So although I'm getting closer to a decent picture on all sources, it doesn't seem like I should have had to rate match every source to get a decent picture. The issues I was seeing was much more than a dropped frame once and a while. Any ideas? Although cables come to mind, the fact that rate matching seems to fix the problem rather than always using a lower frequency seems to discount that idea. Does anybody else have a Tivo Roamio and what input/output settings do you use? How about with your Roku Ultra (2020 version)?


----------



## Kris Deering

Hitechee said:


> I've had my new 4444+ for 12 days and could use some input. I've been trying to address a combination of video stutter on a couple sources and lip sync issues. I should start off by saying I have the video output connected to Output 2 (9 Ghz) since the default 18 Ghz output 4 had issues syncing with my JVC RS400 projector. (I have an active Monoprice 40ft 18gbos cable, but not fiber optic). I know there has been significant discussion of upgrading cables for audio and other dropout issues, but that isn't the specific issue here. However, if people have similar experiences that were fixed by cable upgrades, that would be good to hear.
> 
> Per recommendations, I hooked up everything from Source to Lumagen to projector. Anyway, after I connected up the Lumagen the audio was way ahead of the video and I dialed in 276ms of audio delay in my Denon AVR-X4300H receiver. I'm going through this because the audio delay can be set per receiver input, but with the Lumagen switching all the sources, the audio delay is applied per all sources.
> 
> After I thought I tamed the audio delay, I tackled video stutter issues I was seeing on the Roku and Tivo Roamio. From what i could tell, sources that were output from the Lumagen at the same frame rate as the input looked good, that those that did not, had video issues. In particular, I had issues with both my Tivo Roamio video and Roku video. The Tivo was outputting 1080i at 59.94 Hz and the Lumgagen was outputting at 3840x2160 24p. When I changed the output mode for the Tivo input to Auto 2 resulting in 3840x2160p at 59.94Hz output, the picture was drastically improved. (I also changed the Input Control Enhance to enable Deinterlace although this alone didn't seem to make much differece by itself.) Unfortunately, it also changed the audio delay, so now I have a slight lipsync issue again with this source, but the 23.98 sources are still fine. Similarly, for the Roku with an input of 3840x2160p at 59.94 Hz I changed the output to Auto 2 resulting in an output of 3840x2160p at 59.94Hz and no longer have video stutter.
> 
> As I write this, I now realize I should be able to fix the audio delay in the TIvo by delaying the audio more (which delays all sources) and add video delay through the Lumagen only to appropriate source(s) to make up for the increased audio delay.
> 
> So although I'm getting closer to a decent picture on all sources, it doesn't seem like I should have had to rate match every source to get a decent picture. The issues I was seeing was much more than a dropped frame once and a while. Any ideas? Although cables come to mind, the fact that rate matching seems to fix the problem rather than always using a lower frequency seems to discount that idea. Does anybody else have a Tivo Roamio and what input/output settings do you use? How about with your Roku Ultra (2020 version)?


So many flags in this one. Definitely not the cable I would recommend from Lumagen to projector, frame rate conversions that should't be done and what feels like willy nilly AV synch attempts. Replace your cable, work on getting your frame rates squared away and use a good AV Synch test like the one found on the Spears and Munsil disc or Disney disc to try and get your AV synch rate solid.


----------



## Hitechee

Kris Deering said:


> So many flags in this one. Definitely not the cable I would recommend from Lumagen to projector, frame rate conversions that should't be done and what feels like willy nilly AV synch attempts. Replace your cable, work on getting your frame rates squared away and use a good AV Synch test like the one found on the Spears and Munsil disc or Disney disc to try and get your AV synch rate solid.


Kris,
Could you please elaborate more? Do you think the cable is a likely cause of the video issues to begin with? I know it isn't ideal but wanted to try it before replacing if necessary. You mention frame rate conversions that shouldn't be done, what do you mean by that? The changes I made were just the opposite to match frame rates so the Lumagen didn't do frame rate conversions on the sources I saw video issues with. As far as AV synch issues, I do have the Spears and Munsil UHD disc, but that only allows me to fix the A/V sync for my Panny UB-820 source that I use to play it, and not the other sources that had issues after I made the output changes.


----------



## cargen

Hitechee said:


> Could you please elaborate more? Do you think the cable is a likely cause of the video issues to begin with?


Monoprice generally makes good cables, but I tried a Monoprice 40' cable with a projector and quickly concluded that it was a no-go. You definitely need to invest in a fiber optic cable (perhaps a RUIPro or FIBBR) between projector and the Radiance Pro. Also make sure all your cables between the Radiance Pro and all other gear are at least 6 feet in length and hi-grade HDMI certified. After myself owning the Radiance Pro for over a year, I engaged Kris Deering to travel to my home media room to perform his calibration magic. Kris' fee was the best dollar-for-dollar A-V spend ever for my entire system, which is listed in my auto-sig below.


----------



## Erod

cargen said:


> Monoprice generally makes good cables, but I tried a Monoprice 40' cable with a projector and quickly concluded that it was a no-go. You definitely need to invest in a fiber optic cable (perhaps a RUIPro or FIBBR) between projector and the Radiance Pro. Also make sure all your cables between the Radiance Pro and all other gear are at least 6 feet in length and hi-grade HDMI certified. After myself owning the Radiance Pro for over a year, I engaged Kris Deering to travel to my home media room to perform his calibration magic. Kris' fee was the best dollar-for-dollar A-V spend ever for my entire system, which is listed in my auto-sig below.


My 30-foot Monoprice fiber optic cable is working perfectly.

Definitely need fiber optic.


----------



## SSnarski

I am using a celerity 50' powered fioptic cable from lumagen rad pro to JVCRS4500 projector never a glitch - already had the cable from when i ran from equipment in basement to living room when i was just using the 77" signature OLED - bought it to make sure Dolby Vision could be ran that far to the OLED from OPPO long ago - robbed it for theater room build and has always performed flawless


----------



## jont-uk

Celerity fibre-optic here too between RP and the Epson


----------



## Hitechee

Thanks for all the replies. I had a RUIPro in the cart already figuring that would be part of the solution, so I guess I'll pull the trigger on that. All the source to Lumagen cables are already certified 18 gbps cables between 8 and 10 feet. I'd still be interested in hearing how people have their Tivo (1080i) source and Roku inputs configured on their RadiancePro.


----------



## blake

Is there a way to apply different audio delays for individual sources (for AV sync)? Can the Lumagen RP do this? 

I find lip sync for IPTV box is a bit different than ATV 4K and BluRay. 

If you use your Pre-Pro’s delay function (with Lumagen doing the switching) , the same delay would be applied to all sources since they come in via a single hdmi input.


----------



## dlinsley

blake said:


> Is there a way to apply different audio delays for individual sources (for AV sync)? Can the Lumagen RP do this?
> 
> I find lip sync for IPTV box is a bit different than ATV 4K and BluRay.
> 
> If you use your Pre-Pro’s delay function (with Lumagen doing the switching) , the same delay would be applied to all sources since they come in via a single hdmi input.


The Video Delay option is available per-input/memory, if audio is behind the video. Some prepro/receivers (like Anthem, not just Trinnov) have "virtual" inputs and so you can set the delay per virtual input but all use the same physical HDMI input.


----------



## cdnscg

Can the Lumagen be connected before or after an avr, or does it have to go direct to the display alone?


----------



## sunnya23

blake said:


> Is there a way to apply different audio delays for individual sources (for AV sync)? Can the Lumagen RP do this?
> 
> I find lip sync for IPTV box is a bit different than ATV 4K and BluRay.
> 
> If you use your Pre-Pro’s delay function (with Lumagen doing the switching) , the same delay would be applied to all sources since they come in via a single hdmi input.


This has been an issue for me too. Live-tv box, shield tv, and blu ray player, all have different lip sync. And even within the Shield different apps have different delays. I've become so attentive to it that it can be distracting. There is an option to assign a/v delay per source on the Lumagen. If you go to the lip-sync control menu on the Lumagen you can add video delay.


----------



## jrp

We just posted the first public release that includes the Radiance Pro 5348 (011521).

You will see it includes new remote buttons for a new Lumagen remote. Since we will get questions about this here is some preemptive information:

The new Radiance Pro remote has additional buttons tobring up the HDR parameter menu, 1.9, 2.0, and 2.2 source aspect, a Save button (press Save and then OK to save), Pattern activate, and buttons to temporarily disable or re-enable image based auto aspect.

A couple comments on auto-aspect disable and enable. You must have auto-aspect for image or HDMI+image enabled in the auto aspect menu for these to have any effect. The intended use if for content that irritatingly change aspect ration in the content itself. For example for a movie like Batman Begins, after the movie starts (if you have an anamorphic screen) press disable and auto aspect will leave the aspect where it is (at that point in the movie it is 2.40). Another example is commercials on TV. While watching 16:9content you can press disable to temporarily keep auto-aspect from responding to an aspect ratio change in the content. Then if you should happen to start watching a 2.0 content show, press Enable to again activate Auto-aspect.

We were supposed to have the new Radiance Remote already but we ran into delays due to COVID, then delays because we are "the little guys" and the vendor freely admits the orders for 100000 remotes get preference over the small Lumagen order. Then we just missed getting them before Chinese New Year. So unfortunately they are delayed to March (and fingers crossed on this).

If you purchase a Radiance Pro 5348 you will be put on a list and we will send you a new remote once they arrive.

For now all other Radiance and Radiance Pro units get the current remote. Once we run out of current remotes, all units will ship with the new remote.

We will make the new remote available for purchase at some point for any who want to buy one.

I have attached a rendering of the new remote. I like it better than the current remote and it adds buttons that simplify usage.

Note: Up until after we put down the order deposit, we were being told the remote we had chosen would have back-lights. Unfortunately the factory then said the remote could not have backlights. We choose to move forward, but I wanted to let you all know there is no backlight.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Potentially of interest to gamers with one of the new consoles. Sounds like a similar approach may be useful for calibrating HDR with the Lumagen?


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> We just posted the first public release that includes the Radiance Pro 5348 (011521).
> 
> You will see it includes new remote buttons for a new Lumagen remote. Since we will get questions about this here is some preemptive information:
> 
> The new Radiance Pro remote has additional buttons tobring up the HDR parameter menu, 1.9, 2.0, and 2.2 source aspect, a Save button (press Save and then OK to save), Pattern activate, and buttons to temporarily disable or re-enable image based auto aspect.
> 
> A couple comments on auto-aspect disable and enable. You must have auto-aspect for image or HDMI+image enabled in the auto aspect menu for these to have any effect. The intended use if for content that irritatingly change aspect ration in the content itself. For example for a movie like Batman Begins, after the movie starts (if you have an anamorphic screen) press disable and auto aspect will leave the aspect where it is (at that point in the movie it is 2.40). Another example is commercials on TV. While watching 16:9content you can press disable to temporarily keep auto-aspect from responding to an aspect ratio change in the content. Then if you should happen to start watching a 2.0 content show, press Enable to again activate Auto-aspect.
> 
> We were supposed to have the new Radiance Remote already but we ran into delays due to COVID, then delays because we are "the little guys" and the vendor freely admits the orders for 100000 remotes get preference over the small Lumagen order. Then we just missed getting them before Chinese New Year. So unfortunately they are delayed to March (and fingers crossed on this).
> 
> If you purchase a Radiance Pro 5348 you will be put on a list and we will send you a new remote once they arrive.
> 
> For now all other Radiance and Radiance Pro units get the current remote. Once we run out of current remotes, all units will ship with the new remote.
> 
> We will make the new remote available for purchase at some point for any who want to buy one.
> 
> I have attached a rendering of the new remote. I like it better than the current remote and it adds buttons that simplify usage.
> 
> Note: Up until after we put down the order deposit, we were being told the remote we had chosen would have back-lights. Unfortunately the factory then said the remote could not have backlights. We choose to move forward, but I wanted to let you all know there is no backlight.


Nice job on the new remote. Any chance of getting the new remote codes uploaded to Logitech for Harmony now on a dedicated Radiance Pro product?
Some of those new codes would be really nice to have as discrete IR codes rather than having to do macros (I'm assuming they've been implemented as new discrete codes, and aren't macros implemented in the new handset!)


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Nice job on the new remote. Any chance of getting the new remote codes uploaded to Logitech for Harmony now on a dedicated Radiance Pro product?
> Some of those new codes would be really nice to have as discrete IR codes rather than having to do macros (I'm assuming they've been implemented as new discrete codes, and aren't macros implemented in the new handset!)


Yes the new commands are single IR, or single ASCII character, commands. So no macros needed for these.

I plan to send remote to Logitech Harmony and Universal Remotes in the hope they will add them to their database.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Great suggestion @bobof! But then it will be required to update the Harmony database with for example Radiance Pro - which doesnt exist there today, I dont rememeber but I use an old Lumagen product and it works - but can imagine that it would require component update too. Or?


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Great suggestion @bobof! But then it will be required to update the Harmony database with for example Radiance Pro - which doesnt exist there today, I dont rememeber but I use an old Lumagen product and it works - but can imagine that it would require component update too. Or?


It would make no sense to update the old Radiance product in the harmony DB as they won't support the extra keypresses. Yes, it would need to be a new product in the Harmony DB, and if you needed the new keys then you'd update your Harmony config to use the new device. 



jrp said:


> Yes the new commands are single IR, or single ASCII character, commands. So no macros needed for these.
> 
> I plan to send remote to Logitech Harmony and Universal Remotes in the hope they will add them to their database.


Nice! While you're at it, any chance of a "traditional" discrete input IR code for each input. Logitech are also happy to add IR codes that don't actually have physical buttons on a remote control.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> Note: Up until after we put down the order deposit, we were being told the remote we had chosen would have back-lights. Unfortunately the factory then said the remote could not have backlights. We choose to move forward, but I wanted to let you all know there is no backlight.


Very sorry to hear about the missing backlight. Maybe you / they can come up with an alternative since backlight is essential in my theater.


----------



## Mark Burton

EVH78 said:


> Very sorry to hear about the missing backlight. Maybe you / they can come up with an alternative since backlight is essential in my theater.


A head torch 🤣


----------



## EVH78

Mark Burton said:


> A head torch 🤣


 Lol. Not gonna happen!


----------



## bobof

For me the actual remote (nice though it looks) is secondary to the codes being useful, but then I always use a Harmony (which is backlit). Most backlit remotes don't have motion sensing (unlike the Harmony) so you either have to have a glow in the dark button or remember where the light button is, and when you're remembering that, you might as well remember where all the other buttons are.

Do many people regularly use the proper remote? I take it for granted perhaps that most folk using this kind of gear will have some control system - at the minimum a Harmony, if not something much grander.


----------



## cdnscg

jrp said:


> We just posted the first public release that includes the Radiance Pro 5348 (011521).
> 
> You will see it includes new remote buttons for a new Lumagen remote. Since we will get questions about this here is some preemptive information:
> 
> The new Radiance Pro remote has additional buttons tobring up the HDR parameter menu, 1.9, 2.0, and 2.2 source aspect, a Save button (press Save and then OK to save), Pattern activate, and buttons to temporarily disable or re-enable image based auto aspect.
> 
> A couple comments on auto-aspect disable and enable. You must have auto-aspect for image or HDMI+image enabled in the auto aspect menu for these to have any effect. The intended use if for content that irritatingly change aspect ration in the content itself. For example for a movie like Batman Begins, after the movie starts (if you have an anamorphic screen) press disable and auto aspect will leave the aspect where it is (at that point in the movie it is 2.40). Another example is commercials on TV. While watching 16:9content you can press disable to temporarily keep auto-aspect from responding to an aspect ratio change in the content. Then if you should happen to start watching a 2.0 content show, press Enable to again activate Auto-aspect.
> 
> We were supposed to have the new Radiance Remote already but we ran into delays due to COVID, then delays because we are "the little guys" and the vendor freely admits the orders for 100000 remotes get preference over the small Lumagen order. Then we just missed getting them before Chinese New Year. So unfortunately they are delayed to March (and fingers crossed on this).
> 
> If you purchase a Radiance Pro 5348 you will be put on a list and we will send you a new remote once they arrive.
> 
> For now all other Radiance and Radiance Pro units get the current remote. Once we run out of current remotes, all units will ship with the new remote.
> 
> We will make the new remote available for purchase at some point for any who want to buy one.
> 
> I have attached a rendering of the new remote. I like it better than the current remote and it adds buttons that simplify usage.
> 
> Note: Up until after we put down the order deposit, we were being told the remote we had chosen would have back-lights. Unfortunately the factory then said the remote could not have backlights. We choose to move forward, but I wanted to let you all know there is no backlight.


Hey Jim, possibly you can respond to this question: Can the Lumagen be connected before or after an avr, or does it have to go direct to the display alone?
Also, are the units upgradeable ie: once 8k upscaling becomes available...


----------



## PeterLarsson

cdnscg said:


> Hey Jim, possibly you can respond to this question: Can the Lumagen be connected before or after an avr, or does it have to go direct to the display alone?
> Also, are the units upgradeable ie: once 8k upscaling becomes available...


It can - I did that when I got my Lumagen late november last year - from Lumagen into AVR and then to display. After that I changed tp recommended setup - only sound to AVR and picture to display.Both works and to be honest I dont notice any quality issues with having AVR to route the picture to display actually.

2nd question, why? We hardly have units that support 4k and HDR so one must have Lumagen to do tone mapping for example. Since there are no material and no displays, why are you bothered about 8k now?


----------



## cdnscg

PeterLarsson said:


> 2nd question, why? We hardly have units that support 4k and HDR so one must have Lumagen to do tone mapping for example. Since there are no material and no displays, why are you bothered about 8k now?


Just trying to plan ahead. 8K is coming whether there is content or not. When 4K was first released there was little content but standard blu-rays had the benefit of upscaling.


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> For me the actual remote (nice though it looks) is secondary to the codes being useful, but then I always use a Harmony (which is backlit). Most backlit remotes don't have motion sensing (unlike the Harmony) so you either have to have a glow in the dark button or remember where the light button is, and when you're remembering that, you might as well remember where all the other buttons are.
> 
> Do many people regularly use the proper remote? I take it for granted perhaps that most folk using this kind of gear will have some control system - at the minimum a Harmony, if not something much grander.


I have got the Harmony too. But I regularly use the Lumagen´s remote, it offers so many more functions at one simple touch.


----------



## Craig Peer

cdnscg said:


> Just trying to plan ahead. 8K is coming whether there is content or not. When 4K was first released there was little content but standard blu-rays had the benefit of upscaling.


By the time there are native 8K projectors, I’ll be too old to care ( or dead ). !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cdnscg

Craig Peer said:


> By the time there are native 8K projectors, I’ll be too old to care ( or dead ). !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Come on Craig, you can't be that old  I'd say there will be other manufactures joining JVC in min 5 years. Where else do they have to go besides brighter engines.


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> I'm really pleased to report that replacing my Yamaha RX-A3080 with the Denon AVR-X6700H has continued to provide me with the same rock solid video path (Video Sources -> AVR -> RP -> NX7); the handshake time seems slightly decreased (compared to the Yamaha) when I chose the Denon's *NON *eARC port. There's no question that being able to have access to the GUI was essential in performing the set up and Audyssey calibration as well as for taming pesky lip sync issues. The recent Denon firmware update (enabling DTS:X Pro and Auro-3D for music) has honestly improved the immersive experience that 7.2.6 provides compared with 7.2.4 with both native object based audio (Atmos & DTS:X) and upmixed legacy video tracks and 2 channel music. Unprocessed video passthrough means that my RP can continue to perform upscaling, edge enhancements & DTM (etc.) as had previously been the case. I'm relieved that there don't appear to be any video conflicts between the X6700H and the RP.


Do you not use the Audyssey APP? The APP allows you to do a lot more with the calibration than the AVR. After using the APP, I would never go back to the AVR. Also, when using the APP, you do not need anything onscreen from the projector. Though I can switch inputs on the projector and get everything on screen from my Marantz prepro.


----------



## Craig Peer

cdnscg said:


> Come on Craig, you can't be that old  I'd say there will be other manufactures joining JVC in min 5 years. Where else do they have to go besides brighter engines.


The RS3000 isn't native 8K. And I'd prefer higher brightness and better color over 8K resolution. Besides, the new HDMI chips aren't even full 48Gbps yet.


----------



## cdnscg

Craig Peer said:


> The RS3000 isn't native 8K. And I'd prefer higher brightness and better color over 8K resolution. Besides, the new HDMI chips aren't even full 48Gbps yet.


True, I forgot that it was e-shift. When do you think native 8k will arrive?


----------



## Craig Peer

cdnscg said:


> True, I forgot that it was e-shift. When do you think native 8k will arrive?


I'm still waiting to native 4K 3 chip DLP in a SIM2 Lumis sized package. 8K ? My crystal ball is broken.


----------



## Mike Garrett

bobof said:


> For me the actual remote (nice though it looks) is secondary to the codes being useful, but then I always use a Harmony (which is backlit). Most backlit remotes don't have motion sensing (unlike the Harmony) so you either have to have a glow in the dark button or remember where the light button is, and when you're remembering that, you might as well remember where all the other buttons are.
> 
> Do many people regularly use the proper remote? I take it for granted perhaps that most folk using this kind of gear will have some control system - at the minimum a Harmony, if not something much grander.


Like you, I also use a harmony. I like that Harmony has the motion sensor, but my subs, trigger it all the time in bass heavy scenes, so I always try to place the harmony face down on the armrest, so I do not get distracted by the light. Still nice feature, compared to having to select a button for backlighting.


----------



## cdnscg

Craig Peer said:


> I'm still waiting to native 4K 3 chip DLP in a SIM2 Lumis sized package. 8K ? My crystal ball is broken.


I read the Madvr upscales to 8k, but like you said, what's the point now.


----------



## Mike Garrett

cdnscg said:


> I read the Madvr upscales to 8k, but like you said, what's the point now.


I guess if you have an 8K TV, but then again, I don't see the point of 8K on a TV. Image is too small for benefit.


----------



## Craig Peer

cdnscg said:


> I read the Madvr upscales to 8k, but like you said, what's the point now.


I'm all in on 4K Blu-rays, and it is highly unlikely there will ever be 8K physical media. Which leaves streaming. Where I live I'm lucky to get 4K streaming in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada. So for the foreseeable future, forget about it.


----------



## 187crew003

Mike Garrett said:


> Like you, I also use a harmony. I like that Harmony has the motion sensor, but my subs, trigger it all the time in bass heavy scenes, so I always try to place the harmony face down on the armrest, so I do not get distracted by the light. Still nice feature, compared to having to select a button for backlighting.


exactly what i do. I once tried turning off the motion sensed back light. and it was a nightmare lol. constantly was flicking the remote upward to get it to turn on and it wouldnt made me so mad. so turned it back on and learned to live with putting it upside down lol

I havent touched a stock remote in years


----------



## tigerhonaker

Craig Peer said:


> I'm all in on 4K Blu-rays, and it is highly unlikely there will ever be 8K physical media. Which leaves streaming. Where I live I'm lucky to get 4K streaming in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada. So for the foreseeable future, forget about it.


Craig,

No-Streaming currently comes close to matching a 4K HDR "Hard-Disc" and I do know as I stream content all the time.
And there also is no real comparison for Audio when streaming versus a 4K HDR "Hard-Disc".

T.


----------



## docrog

Mike Garrett said:


> Do you not use the Audyssey APP? The APP allows you to do a lot more with the calibration than the AVR. After using the APP, I would never go back to the AVR. Also, when using the APP, you do not need anything onscreen from the projector. Though I can switch inputs on the projector and get everything on screen from my Marantz prepro.


No, I don't use the Audyssey app since I'm quite happy with the sound achieved in my HT from standard Audyssey calibration/room correction and having applyied any necessary subwoofer tweaks directly from my ("seasoned to taste") SVS app PEQ settings for music and movies. My AVR is behind a solid wood cabinet door, so the on-screen GUI is important for me to verify/alter sound modes, access lip sync as well as to look at info, etc. I realize that the Denon 2016 app can essentially provide me with the same capabilities but that's just one more remote & screen to deal with while I'm watching the PJ. As I've previously stated, my video chain configuration is rock solid, without any apparent degradation to RP PQ when using the Denon as the video switching device.


----------



## G-Rex

The tech for streaming at 4K disc quality exists presently, but only if you own a Sony Bravia XR tv. The Bravia Core service streams at 80 Mbps (the same 4k disc) but is limited to Sony studio movies. The technology is coming and will be great when a services like VUDU make it available to all studios. 

It will likely be a long time before we see this tech on Netflix or Amazon Prime. With new efficient codecs coming (i.e H.266 VVC for 4k) it’s just a matter of time before they are capable of providing 8k streams. Japan is already broadcasting in 8k. So it’s not if, it’s when. At that time, optical fiber internet service will be mandatory. 









Sony's Bravia Core streaming service will deliver video comparable to Blu-ray


If you purchase a Sony Bravia XR TV this year, you’ll get exclusive access to high-quality movies through a new streaming platform called Bravia Core, Sony has announced.




www.engadget.com


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> While you're at it, any chance of a "traditional" discrete input IR code for each input. Logitech are also happy to add IR codes that don't actually have physical buttons on a remote control.


I would have to check if we have any IR odes that could be reassigned since I think all have had a function at one point. We could consider changing the IR receiver code to work with additional codes, but that would actually be more work than it sounds like. Then there is the issue of "capturing" the codes at Harmony. They would have to be able to enter a code without first capturing it.

For the Harmony, and since they do not have the "Input" code, I just build a two button macro. Works very well and I imagine it is what you are doing. I send a "CLR" clean command and then the input number.

BTW: For the 10 input 5348, you can select input 10 by selecting input 0. Since there is no input 0 this works for us and it reduces the number of key presses for input 10 by one.


----------



## Mark Burton

Mike Garrett said:


> Like you, I also use a harmony. I like that Harmony has the motion sensor, but my subs, trigger it all the time in bass heavy scenes, so I always try to place the harmony face down on the armrest, so I do not get distracted by the light. Still nice feature, compared to having to select a button for backlighting.


me too!! And nothing more annoying that the hyper sensitive buttons, switching to a different activity at the slightest touch! 🤣


----------



## 187crew003

Mark Burton said:


> me too!! And nothing more annoying that the hyper sensitive buttons, switching to a different activity at the slightest touch! 🤣


that dang touchscreen!


----------



## Mike Garrett

docrog said:


> No, I don't use the Audyssey app since I'm quite happy with the sound achieved in my HT from standard Audyssey calibration/room correction and having applyied any necessary subwoofer tweaks directly from my ("seasoned to taste") SVS app PEQ settings for music and movies. My AVR is behind a solid wood cabinet door, so the on-screen GUI is important for me to verify/alter sound modes, access lip sync as well as to look at info, etc. I realize that the Denon 2016 app can essentially provide me with the same capabilities but that's just one more remote & screen to deal with while I'm watching the PJ. As I've previously stated, my video chain configuration is rock solid, without any apparent degradation to RP PQ when using the Denon as the video switching device.


I am not telling you to switch your configuration. I am telling you to try the APP. With the APP, you can remove, per speaker, the mid bass dip. You can adjust the whole curve to the Harmon recommended curve or any other curve you want. You can set it up to only make correction below the Schroeder frequency for your room. And of course you can do everything in the APP that you can do in the AVR. Remember when you could have a pro come in and calibrate the audio using Audyssey Pro. This is basically the same. For home theater, using the APP, I am quite happy with the room correction, even compared to Dirac in my room.


----------



## Mike Garrett

jrp said:


> I would have to check if we have any IR odes that could be reassigned since I think all have had a function at one point. We could consider changing the IR receiver code to work with additional codes, but that would actually be more work than it sounds like. Then there is the issue of "capturing" the codes at Harmony. They would have to be able to enter a code without first capturing it.
> 
> For the Harmony, and since they do not have the "Input" code, I just build a two button macro. Works very well and I imagine it is what you are doing. I send a "CLR" clean command and then the input number.
> 
> BTW: For the 10 input 5348, you can select input 10 by selecting input 0. Since there is no input 0 this works for us and it reduces the number of key presses for input 10 by one.


A little secret. You do not actually have to build a macro. You can actually teach two or three commands to one button. I used to do this all the time with Harmony, though I currently do not have a need for it. When teaching a command to the remote, you need to enter the first command and then quickly enter the second command. Then the remote will send both commands when you use that button. I have actually been able to teach three commands to one button this way.


----------



## jrp

cdnscg said:


> Hey Jim, possibly you can respond to this question: Can the Lumagen be connected before or after an avr, or does it have to go direct to the display alone?
> Also, are the units upgradeable ie: once 8k upscaling becomes available...


The connection schemes supported are covered in the manual. That said, yes the Radiance Pro can be before or after the AVR.

Some AVR outputs seem to have issues driving a video processor like the Radiance Pro, but the mainstream ones (Sony, Marantz, Denon, Integra) usually do well sending their output to the Radiance Pro. However, this is still not our recommended connection topology. It allow you to see the OSD, and it is used successfully by a number of our customers.

=====

_Assuming_ we do an 8k product, to get 8k you would have to trade-in your current unit. It is not cost effective to even try to support four times the data rate and four times the computation in our4k design. So trading up is the only feasible option.

We have yet to determine if we will do an 8k product.

=====

Also, everyone needs to know that 8k is a complete waste for home theater. Yes, I just said that. This is a general comment to everyone and not specific to your question.

At 1x screen width (which is pretty dang close) 4k pixels are already below human visual acuity (considered to be one-arc-second for the absolute smallest element a human with 20/20 vision can see). If someone wants to spend a lot of money on an 8k projector, with a _true_ 8k chip and lens _truly_ capable of 8k resolution (noting that many 4k projector lens' are not even up to true 4k), then I think that it is not an unreasonable goal. But it would be hugely expensive and you likely would not see the difference at viewing distance.

It makes even less sense to transmit 8k since for the same bandwidth and compression algorithms you will have more compression artifacts. So more compression artifacts, which are likely visible, traded for no human visible resolution improvement. This translates into dumb. I am a strong advocate for better 4k pixels yielding visibly better images compared to more pixels. Let's first get better 4k pixels, and 4k lens' that give you a sharp image at 4k.

That said 4k120 for gamers makes sense. For gamers who sit 1/4 screen width away from their screen (ugh, but someone might) then 8k might. However, remember that many "4k" games are rendered at 2k due to GPU limitations when quality features are turned on. Rendering at 8k would take 16 times as many GPUs as rendering at 2k, which many games are doing when quality features are turned on. And of course rendering at 120 fps, versus 60 fps, doubles the GPU count again.


----------



## jrp

Mike Garrett said:


> A little secret. You do not actually have to build a macro. You can actually teach two or three commands to one button. I used to do this all the time with Harmony, though I currently do not have a need for it. When teaching a command to the remote, you need to enter the first command and then quickly enter the second command. Then the remote will send both commands when you use that button. I have actually been able to teach three commands to one button this way.


That's good to know. Thanks for the info.


----------



## woofer

cdnscg said:


> I read the Madvr upscales to 8k,


NO! it does not...


----------



## cdnscg

woofer said:


> NO! it does not...


Okay, then what does it mean in the 'scaling' of 8K on the attached?


----------



## woofer

cdnscg said:


> Okay, then what does it mean in the 'scaling' of 8K on the attached?


That is one of the *"Future" "Planned" "Theoretical" *options to be implemented..... at THIS moment in time neither madVR OR Envy up-scales to 8K..


----------



## cdnscg

woofer said:


> That is one of the *"Future" "Planned" "Theoretical" *options to be implemented..... at THIS moment in time neither madVR OR Envy up-scales to 8K..


Don't care to debate, but it doesn't state that does it


----------



## woofer

cdnscg said:


> Don't care to debate, but it doesn't state that does it


I have a high end HTPC running RTX 3090 and madVR .. I had the Envy EXTREME ( SOLD ) , still have an Envy PRO ..there is *NO 8K Up Scaling*..............you want to debate ???


----------



## bobof

Mike Garrett said:


> A little secret. You do not actually have to build a macro. You can actually teach two or three commands to one button. I used to do this all the time with Harmony, though I currently do not have a need for it. When teaching a command to the remote, you need to enter the first command and then quickly enter the second command. Then the remote will send both commands when you use that button. I have actually been able to teach three commands to one button this way.


Signed - Mike "Fastest Fingers in the West" Garrett...


----------



## cdnscg

woofer said:


> I have a high end HTPC running RTX 3090 and madVR .. I had the Envy EXTREME ( SOLD ) , still have an Envy PRO ..there is *NO 8K Up Scaling*..............you want to debate ???


Ease up with all the ????, just stated I read it, and wanted to clarify I'm not pulling info from the air. If you have concrete proof, then great. Guess MarVR should adjust their brochure.


----------



## bobof

cdnscg said:


> Ease up with all the ????, just stated I read it, and wanted to clarify I'm not pulling info from the air. If you have concrete proof, then great. Guess MarVR should adjust their brochure.


I guess worth a Question in the owner's thread for that. I know they didn't originally have the cards with the HDMI2.1 parts on the Envy Extreme product, but I believe they do now. Whether or not the 8K upscale is enabled maybe is a different matter though.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Also, everyone needs to know that 8k is a complete waste for home theater. Yes, I just said that. This is a general comment to everyone and not specific to your question.
> 
> At 1x screen width (which is pretty dang close) 4k pixels are already below human visual acuity (considered to be one-arc-second for the absolute smallest element a human with 20/20 vision can see). If someone wants to spend a lot of money on an 8k projector, with a _true_ 8k chip and lens _truly_ capable of 8k resolution (noting that many 4k projector lens' are not even up to true 4k), then I think that it is not an unreasonable goal. But it would be hugely expensive and you likely would not see the difference at viewing distance.
> 
> It makes even less sense to transmit 8k since for the same bandwidth and compression algorithms you will have more compression artifacts. So more compression artifacts, which are likely visible, traded for no human visible resolution improvement. This translates into dumb. I am a strong advocate for better 4k pixels yielding visibly better images compared to more pixels. Let's first get better 4k pixels, and 4k lens' that give you a sharp image at 4k.


While I myself may never do 8K, or at least for a very long time, I have no doubt it will come.

8K may be much more than just number of pixels, in the same way 4K brought in HDR/WCG. And even if it is just about more pixels, that will help with motion and better edges, etc.

8K is likely to use something newer than HEVC/h265 for compression.

So while I think the benefits of 8K will ultimately be small, I don't think they'll be totally non-existent.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> The connection schemes supported are covered in the manual. That said, yes the Radiance Pro can be before or after the AVR. Some AVR outputs seem to have issues driving a video processor like the Radiance Pro, but the mainstream ones (Sony, Marantz, Denon, Integra) usually do well sending their output to the Radiance Pro. However, this is still not our recommended connection topology. It allow you to see the OSD, and it is used successfully by a number of our customers.


Jim, I'd truly appreciate it if you could articulate why using an AVR for the switching device (with an AVR which is proven to be rock solid in its HDMI connection to the RP) "*is still not our recommended topology*". One poster on this thread continually (and categorically) asserts that there is degradation of the optimal video PQ because of the additional device in the video stream. I would like to understand, once and for all, what you feel is lost/degraded with a chain: video source -> AVR -> RP -> PJ. Thanks!


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> We just posted the first public release that includes the Radiance Pro 5348 (011521).
> 
> You will see it includes new remote buttons for a new Lumagen remote. Since we will get questions about this here is some preemptive information:
> 
> The new Radiance Pro remote has additional buttons tobring up the HDR parameter menu, 1.9, 2.0, and 2.2 source aspect, a Save button (press Save and then OK to save), Pattern activate, and buttons to temporarily disable or re-enable image based auto aspect.
> 
> A couple comments on auto-aspect disable and enable. You must have auto-aspect for image or HDMI+image enabled in the auto aspect menu for these to have any effect. The intended use if for content that irritatingly change aspect ration in the content itself. For example for a movie like Batman Begins, after the movie starts (if you have an anamorphic screen) press disable and auto aspect will leave the aspect where it is (at that point in the movie it is 2.40). Another example is commercials on TV. While watching 16:9content you can press disable to temporarily keep auto-aspect from responding to an aspect ratio change in the content. Then if you should happen to start watching a 2.0 content show, press Enable to again activate Auto-aspect.
> 
> We were supposed to have the new Radiance Remote already but we ran into delays due to COVID, then delays because we are "the little guys" and the vendor freely admits the orders for 100000 remotes get preference over the small Lumagen order. Then we just missed getting them before Chinese New Year. So unfortunately they are delayed to March (and fingers crossed on this).
> 
> If you purchase a Radiance Pro 5348 you will be put on a list and we will send you a new remote once they arrive.
> 
> For now all other Radiance and Radiance Pro units get the current remote. Once we run out of current remotes, all units will ship with the new remote.
> 
> We will make the new remote available for purchase at some point for any who want to buy one.
> 
> I have attached a rendering of the new remote. I like it better than the current remote and it adds buttons that simplify usage.
> 
> Note: Up until after we put down the order deposit, we were being told the remote we had chosen would have back-lights. Unfortunately the factory then said the remote could not have backlights. We choose to move forward, but I wanted to let you all know there is no backlight.


Question :

What is the difference between turning “auto aspect ratio” on and off versus using the “sticky aspect override”?


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Question :
> 
> What is the difference between turning “auto aspect ratio” on and off versus using the “sticky aspect override”?


Turning it off, you don't have to know what the current AR is if it is the correct AR. To use sticky to disable switching, you have to press the aspect button for the aspect you want to make it sticky to. Also, sticky will only re-enable when it feels like it (based on some major change, like input switch, resolution / refresh change, etc). Whereas you can turn it back on at any time, even if you don't have a significant change happening.


----------



## SJHT

docrog said:


> Jim, I'd truly appreciate it if you could articulate why using an AVR for the switching device (with an AVR which is proven to be rock solid in its HDMI connection to the RP) "*is still not our recommended topology*". One poster on this thread continually (and categorically) asserts that there is degradation of the optimal video PQ because of the additional device in the video stream. I would like to understand, once and for all, what you feel is lost/degraded with a chain: video source -> AVR -> RP -> PJ. Thanks!


I think the audio improvements have been discussed. One of the reasons I’m upgrading to a 5348. May not be important to everyone, but less jitter typically translates into better performance. Audio being more easily perceived depending on your system. Jim has also stated that many AVPs are better than others. Frankly I’ve seen some major AVP manufacturers that I’ve owned not deal with HDMI source issues at all and just expect you to upgrade to their latest system. Lumagen on the other hand has dealt with source related issues with great support. SJ


----------



## docrog

SJHT said:


> I think the audio improvements have been discussed. One of the reasons I’m upgrading to a 5348. May not be important to everyone, but less jitter typically translates into better performance. Audio being more easily perceived depending on your system. Jim has also stated that many AVPs are better than others. Frankly I’ve seen some major AVP manufacturers that I’ve owned not deal with HDMI source issues at all and just expect you to upgrade to their latest system. Lumagen on the other hand has dealt with source related issues with great support. SJ


Thanks for your response, but I'm only interested in getting a definitive answer from @jrp regarding any user appreciable deterioration in the video aspect of optimal RP PQ. My experience with both my prior Yamaha RX-A3080 and (now) the Denon X6700H has been superb, but I'd very much like to know why that video chain isn't equally the recommended topology.


----------



## CP850-CLED

fatherom said:


> While I myself may never do 8K, or at least for a very long time, I have no doubt it will come.
> 
> 8K may be much more than just number of pixels, in the same way 4K brought in HDR/WCG. And even if it is just about more pixels, that will help with motion and better edges, etc.
> 
> 8K is likely to use something newer than HEVC/h265 for compression.
> 
> So while I think the benefits of 8K will ultimately be small, I don't think they'll be totally non-existent.


Take a look at the NHK commissioned My Fair Lady 8k restoration, a joy to behold in 4k and I bet even on a great HD display. So with the new 8k content, the benefits will lift the performance of the lesser resolution but better quality displays.


----------



## dlinsley

docrog said:


> Thanks for your response, but I'm only interested in getting a definitive answer from @jrp regarding any user appreciable deterioration in the video aspect of optimal RP PQ. My experience with both my prior Yamaha RX-A3080 and (now) the Denon X6700H has been superb, but I'd very much like to know why that video chain isn't equally the recommended topology.


I don't think Jim always notices the tagging, and so you may want to drop an email to support (including a link to your post asking if he can clarify here).

I know you don't want my answer either, but I would think it is simpler to offer the recommended order (and they do show the others in the manual) than to try and play whack-a-mole with a list of known good/bad models and firmware versions for those.


----------



## desertdome

woofer said:


> That is one of the *"Future" "Planned" "Theoretical" *options to be implemented..... at THIS moment in time neither madVR OR Envy up-scales to 8K..


madVR has been able to upscale both chroma and the image to 8K for years. Here are the results of rendering times for 8K back in 2016.


----------



## LGJr

After update to latest firmware *011521 *I got a blank black screen. Reflashed and got a pink screen. Rolled back to previous version 120420 and got a pink screen. Sound was fine. My unit is pro 4242

Turned off my entire system for 15 minutes and turned back on and everything was fine. I previously did a short power off of my whole system that did not work.


----------



## cdnscg

LGJr said:


> After update to latest firmware *011521 *I got a blank black screen. Reflashed and got a pink screen. Rolled back to previous version 120420 and got a pink screen. Sound was fine. My unit is pro 4242
> 
> Turned off my entire system for 15 minutes and turned back on and everything was fine. I previously did a short power off of my whole system that did not work.


The pink, if fuzzy, screen sounds like a hdmi handshake. While not scientific I've found sometimes it takes time and right turn on sequence to secure the handshake. After which could be solid going forward.


----------



## Craig Peer

Mike Garrett said:


> I am not telling you to switch your configuration. I am telling you to try the APP. With the APP, you can remove, per speaker, the mid bass dip. You can adjust the whole curve to the Harmon recommended curve or any other curve you want. You can set it up to only make correction below the Schroeder frequency for your room. And of course you can do everything in the APP that you can do in the AVR. Remember when you could have a pro come in and calibrate the audio using Audyssey Pro. This is basically the same. For home theater, using the APP, I am quite happy with the room correction, even compared to Dirac in my room.


The App combined with DeRemote are the best things I've found for improving the sound in my theater lately. The DeRemote app even made the Tenet soundtrack better !  I don't want the GUI on screen anymore - it's distracting. Besides, then my wife sees I'm edging the volume up. With the the DeRemote app, nobody knows !


----------



## jont-uk

Quick question - been reading about setting a forced 1080 on Apple TV and my sky satellite inputs to stop those devices doing the upscaling ... should I set those as input settings or can I set a MEM C or D which applies to the source irrespective of input ? ... guess its not applicable to the Oppo as it sets 1080 or 4k as source direct ? ... and similarly less of an issue for the XBox ? ...

Also did I read about a gaming setting somewhere and should I apply that to the Xbox input ?


----------



## Klaus.S

Craig Peer said:


> The App combined with DeRemote are the best things I've found for improving the sound in my theater lately. The DeRemote app even made the Tenet soundtrack better !  I don't want the GUI on screen anymore - it's distracting. Besides, then my wife sees I'm edging the volume up. With the the DeRemote app, nobody knows !


Hi Craig, the two apps you are talking abort. Are they on the android market? 
Cant seem to find them. 

Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

Klaus.S said:


> Hi Craig, the two apps you are talking abort. Are they on the android market?
> Cant seem to find them.
> 
> Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


Not sure - I have an iPhone. I think the Denon app is.

This says it is available for Android - Denon/Marantz Audyssey MultEQ Editor App Allows Full Customization of Sound | Audioholics

Sorry - DeRemote is only for Apple products apparently - DeRemote - Control your Denon or Marantz


----------



## bjorg

What's the best way to do a factory reset, but maintain the settings on the RadiancePro?


----------



## SJHT

I would download and save your config. Then factory reset followed by uploading the config back into the unit. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> What's the best way to do a factory reset, but maintain the settings on the RadiancePro?


The easiest way is to just press MENU 0999 and it will reset. The reset will not hold through a power cycle unless you go into the main menu and do a save. So this allows you to do a reset and/or change anything you'd like without having to worry about whether anything you do will mess up your existing settings. When you're done messing around, just power cycle the Lumagen and your settings will all be back to what they were (again, provided that you never did a save in the main menu).


----------



## MOberhardt

LGJr said:


> After update to latest firmware *011521 *I got a blank black screen. Reflashed and got a pink screen. Rolled back to previous version 120420 and got a pink screen. Sound was fine. My unit is pro 4242
> 
> Turned off my entire system for 15 minutes and turned back on and everything was fine. I previously did a short power off of my whole system that did not work.





cdnscg said:


> The pink, if fuzzy, screen sounds like a hdmi handshake. While not scientific I've found sometimes it takes time and right turn on sequence to secure the handshake. After which could be solid going forward.


Yes I've had something like this since the last few updates on occasion. The screen reminds me of analog tv show, a la Poltergeist, for those of you of the digital age...

I just trigger a hdmi toggle on my AVR and that fixes it.

Oddly it happens sometimes on start, and also on memory change - I have two memory settings, auto edid which I default to, plus memory 2 is a 1080p EDID which I use to forced the Panasonic to 1080p output. So I've seen the snow on both memory settings.


----------



## blake

Craig Peer said:


> . ///snip///
> 
> I don't want the GUI on screen anymore - it's distracting. Besides, then my wife sees I'm edging the volume up. With the the DeRemote app, nobody knows !


Haha that’s hilarious. I thought I was the only one who didn’t like OSD’scfor the same reason !


----------



## scrowe

jont-uk said:


> Quick question - been reading about setting a forced 1080 on Apple TV and my sky satellite inputs to stop those devices doing the upscaling ... should I set those as input settings or can I set a MEM C or D which applies to the source irrespective of input ? ... guess its not applicable to the Oppo as it sets 1080 or 4k as source direct ? ... and similarly less of an issue for the XBox ? ...
> 
> Also did I read about a gaming setting somewhere and should I apply that to the Xbox input ?


Easier to use a different memory on the input device. Not sure about gaming.

You shouldn’t need it for Opponif set to source direct, you need it for Panny players though. AppleTV works fine, but it doesn’t work for SkyQ, as it doesn’t check the HDMI EDID on a change, and doesn’t have an auto-resolution setting.


----------



## blake

How does 1080p to 4k upscaling on typical IPTV/Cable boxes compare to Lumagen ? Given how inexpensive these boxes are I thought it would be terrible, but it may not be. 

If I run my Arris IPTV box in 1080p mode, I cannot view the few 4k channels in their native resolution, since they will be downscaled to HD output. However , i was surprised how good the Arris box actually upscaled 1080p to 4k when it’s set for 4k hdmi output. The difference wasn’t obvious to me when compared to the Lumagen upscaling iPTV’s 1080p output to 4k. Maybe I should sample more content though...


----------



## nexus99

I am just starting to learn about the Lumagen products! Greetings all!


----------



## jont-uk

scrowe said:


> Easier to use a different memory on the input device. Not sure about gaming.


@Gordon Fraser has programmed two Mem buttons A and B already to change settings between my PJ and 4K Sony tv ... not sure I have enough Mem buttons for input resolution switching as well ?

Sky needs a manual switch between 1080i and 2160p - but I think I still need two input settings to switch it as well ?


----------



## MOberhardt

jont-uk said:


> ?
> 
> Sky needs a manual switch between 1080i and 2160p - but I think I still need two input settings to switch it as well ?


I can't believe, 70 years later, we are still dealing with this "I" rubbish. It was inexcusable taking the 140 year old AC frequency based 60hz stuff into this era, but interlaced? Just get the XXXX out of here....


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> I can't believe, 70 years later, we are still dealing with this "I" rubbish. It was inexcusable taking the 140 year old AC frequency based 60hz stuff into this era, but interlaced? Just get the XXXX out of here....


When the channels are being relayed via a very expensive piece of satellite infrastructure 36,000km above the Earth, it makes perfect sense to try and economise on bandwidth in any way possible...


----------



## Klaus.S

Craig Peer said:


> Not sure - I have an iPhone. I think the Denon app is.
> 
> This says it is available for Android - Denon/Marantz Audyssey MultEQ Editor App Allows Full Customization of Sound | Audioholics
> 
> Sorry - DeRemote is only for Apple products apparently - DeRemote - Control your Denon or Marantz


Thanks Craig. 

Sendt fra min SM-G986B med Tapatalk


----------



## audioguy

blake said:


> Haha that’s hilarious. I thought I was the only one who didn’t like OSD’scfor the same reason !


Count me as another one!!


----------



## ht guy

audioguy said:


> Count me as another one!!


+1
Once I realized it could be on the remote screen, end of story. Guests don't see adjustments in volume.


----------



## GerryWaz

I see that Lumagen has posted an updated version of the user manual (dated 012621), and now covering the 42xx/44xx/5xxx models. Thanks, Jim and company!

Direct link to the manual: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_Manual_012621.pdf


----------



## Sittler27

I'd like to perform a proper 3DLUT calibration of my JVC NX9 and load it up into my RP. Could anyone point me to any detailed instructions, discussions or guides to this regard?

Also, as I'm using Colourspace+i1d3pro meter, any details on how to have the software's auto pattern function work with Lumagen's internal reference patterns would also be great.

Sorry, I know this gets pretty technical, but had to ask here before I go digging with questions elsewhere.


----------



## scrowe

jont-uk said:


> @Gordon Fraser has programmed two Mem buttons A and B already to change settings between my PJ and 4K Sony tv ... not sure I have enough Mem buttons for input resolution switching as well ?
> 
> Sky needs a manual switch between 1080i and 2160p - but I think I still need two input settings to switch it as well ?


Each input will have 4 memories A,B,C,D , so if 2 are used to store different setups for TV, PJ output, you can copy settings from one memory to an unused one, and then change the EDID to 1080p. so you should end up with something like:

MemA : ATV TV 4K
MemB: ATV PJ 4K
MemC: ATV TV HD
MemD: ATV PJ HD


----------



## jont-uk

Sittler27 said:


> I'd like to perform a proper 3DLUT calibration of my JVC NX9 and load it up into my RP. Could anyone point me to any detailed instructions, discussions or guides to this regard?
> 
> Also, as I'm using Colourspace+i1d3pro meter, any details on how to have the software's auto pattern function work with Lumagen's internal reference patterns would also be great.
> 
> Sorry, I know this gets pretty technical, but had to ask here before I go digging with questions elsewhere.


Think you need a certain version/level of Colourspace to be able to to 3D Luts ... is there no information over on the LightIllusion website ?


----------



## bearcat2002

What movie is this horse in the snow scene from to test out the DTM?











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sceptre-lcd

bearcat2002 said:


> What movie is this horse in the snow scene from to test out the DTM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i think this is from a spears muncil test disc ?


----------



## Sittler27

jont-uk said:


> Think you need a certain version/level of Colourspace to be able to to 3D Luts ... is there no information over on the LightIllusion website ?


Starting to research there, but was more interested here in the mechanics of loading the lut(s) into the right areas and how.


----------



## ckgolf

Craig Peer said:


> The App combined with DeRemote are the best things I've found for improving the sound in my theater lately. The DeRemote app even made the Tenet soundtrack better !  I don't want the GUI on screen anymore - it's distracting. Besides, then my wife sees I'm edging the volume up. With the the DeRemote app, nobody knows !


 Is there a setting on The DeRemote app to not have volume on screen? I have the app and it’s still on screen. Thanks


----------



## cdnscg

bearcat2002 said:


> What movie is this horse in the snow scene from to test out the DTM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's funny because Madvr also use this as an example of their units performance


----------



## Craig Peer

ckgolf said:


> Is there a setting on The DeRemote app to not have volume on screen? I have the app and it’s still on screen. Thanks


Try Misc / Onscreen Menu. I have nothing on any screen other than my iPhone screen. Unless it's triggering your Denon's on screen display - in which case, turn that off.


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> I'd like to perform a proper 3DLUT calibration of my JVC NX9 and load it up into my RP. Could anyone point me to any detailed instructions, discussions or guides to this regard?
> 
> Also, as I'm using Colourspace+i1d3pro meter, any details on how to have the software's auto pattern function work with Lumagen's internal reference patterns would also be great.
> 
> Sorry, I know this gets pretty technical, but had to ask here before I go digging with questions elsewhere.


Colorspace is very sophisticated LUT software that even pro calibrators have trouble with. Adding in the Radiance to the mix only complicates it more. Not something I would recommend to anyone to just futz around with on a whim unless you really know what you are doing. LS should have some kind of guide on how to get it to work with a Radiance as a direct display and pattern generator, if they don't you'll be pretty hard pressed to find someone that is going to take the time to walk you through that as it is not a simple feat with a few quick steps.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

I have the 120420 software version and I have a 4442 Radiance Pro. Is there anything for me to gain in updating to the 011521 version? Having been a victim of the green and purple screen at one stage many versions back, I am a bit wary of updating. The maxim "if it aint broke, don't fix it" is uppermost in my mind.


----------



## 187crew003

Just called Jim left a VM. Having a weird issue. All of a sudden the lumagen is displaying a blank black screen. If I turn off my nvidia shield and turn it back on it will flash the menu screen then go blank again. I just finished watching an entire movie. And now this is happening. Any help would be appreciated. I can’t access any menus since no video is being sent to the rs600

thanks


----------



## darksets

jrp said:


> Lumagen, Inc. is excited to announce the latest addition to the Radiance Pro family of 4k video processors, the Radiance Pro 5348. The Radiance Pro 5348 takes the ultimate video processor to the next level by minimizing output-jitter and electrical noise. The Radiance Pro 5348 has ten 18 GHz inputs, two 18 GHz outputs, and one audio-only output, in a 1U case. This is a fixed configuration.
> 
> Rather than go into details here, I have written a white-paper on the new Radiance Pro 5348 and it is attached to this post.
> 
> I am sure there will be questions, but I tried to cover the most likely ones in the FAQ in this introduction paper. Please feel free to post questions, or email them to support at Lumagen (.com).


Time for me to order a Radiance Pro 4242 as a backup of the one I have now...


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> Just called Jim left a VM. Having a weird issue. All of a sudden the lumagen is displaying a blank black screen. If I turn off my nvidia shield and turn it back on it will flash the menu screen then go blank again. I just finished watching an entire movie. And now this is happening. Any help would be appreciated. I can’t access any menus since no video is being sent to the rs600
> 
> thanks


I would unseat and reseat the HDMI cable with the Lumagen off. If this happens when you are watching something, press the ALT button followed by the PREV button to do an output restart, this solves most issues I see in the field if something is being twitchy.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Jim, I'd truly appreciate it if you could articulate why using an AVR for the switching device (with an AVR which is proven to be rock solid in its HDMI connection to the RP) "*is still not our recommended topology*". One poster on this thread continually (and categorically) asserts that there is degradation of the optimal video PQ because of the additional device in the video stream. I would like to understand, once and for all, what you feel is lost/degraded with a chain: video source -> AVR -> RP -> PJ. Thanks!


While you can use an AVR or audio processor to switch sources there are some issues and potential issues.

Since the AVRs are using HDMI switch chips, they (in my experience) always restart their output on a switch which restarts the Pro HDMI input connection which often will restart the Pro output to the projector. This causes longer, to significantly longer, switching times due to long lock on for projectors.

Some AVRs and audio processors reduce image resolution. Not all though. Historically this seems to be a reduction in Chroma bandwidth, but it is also possible they can reduce Luma bandwidth. This is in pass-through mode that should not be making any changes to the data.

We have also seen some audio processor have issues driving the Radiance video processors. Can't be 100% is it only the AVR, but other AVSs can drive the Radiance and Radiance Pro models without issue. So I suspect the AVRs work to make sure they are compatible with maindstream TVs, but then stop their compatibility efforts.

If a new video feature is added (e.g. 3D, HDR), with the AVR switching you have to wait until both the AVR nad the Radiance Pro have the new feature to use it. Likely less of an issue now.


----------



## 187crew003

So Jim returned my call on a Saturday night and worked with me for about 25 minutes. We determined it wasn’t the lumagen and might be the cables but definitely a connection issue. But before I ordered new cables I tried the other input on the rs600. And sure enough fixed the issue. So either it wasn’t seated well in input 2 or input 2 is going bad on the JVC tough to tell. But either way all is fixed. Thanks again for the outstanding CS!


----------



## woofer

187crew003 said:


> So Jim returned my call on a Saturday night and worked with me for about 25 minutes.
> 
> Thanks again for the outstanding CS!


Thats what makes a product a success.....impeccable support to the end-user/customer.!!  

In my Audio / video journey i have only come across "2" instances of outstanding support directly from the proprietor of a company in regards to a " one on one" with one of their customers.

#1 Being....... *Jim Peterson * from Lumagen 

#2 Being ......*Evana Manley* from "Manley Labs"

A few years back i was running a pair of Manley Labs Neo Classic 250 Monoblock amps ( 10 x KT77 Power tubes in each Amp) . At the time i was using a pair of Classic Infinity RS 4.5,s and usually powered them with a pair of Krell KMA 160,s .
One afternoon i decided to run the Manley,s with the 4.5,s .........The Infinity Kappa 9 ( to which i still have a pair) was regarded as the ultimate "Amp Killer" due to it dropping below 1ohm on many occasions.
As it turns out the RS 4.5,s are actually harder to drive than the Kappa 9,s. During a session with the Manley 250 Neo,s and the RS 4.5,s one of the KT77,s went critical and took out a screen grid resister on the amp.

I emailed Manley Labs support .... the next day i received an email from *Evana* organising a time for a phone call. Sure enough at the agreed time she rang me here in Aus and we had a chat about what had happened. 
She personally organised a priority shipment of the required components required for a repair and a detailed explanation of the repair procedure .

She was an absolute "Gem" .

The part arrived here in Aus, i performed the repair . I informed her the repair was done and everything was OK once again......We had a 2nd call and chatted for some time.......a VERY nice lady !

So........ Absolute outstanding customer service .

.............. Apologies for the OT and extended "Story" of *Evana Manley*.................BUT!! the point is i am putting *Jim Peterson *on the same level ....

Customer Support is something overlooked by far to many companies !!!!! It is as important as the product itself!!!!


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Starting to research there, but was more interested here in the mechanics of loading the lut(s) into the right areas and how.


The Radiance integration is fairly straight forward.
There is a Colourspace guide for Lumagen integration here:








Lumagen


Lumagen Radiance Video Processors




www.lightillusion.com




And there is an old Lightspace guide for Lumagen here:








Lumagen User Guide


LightSpace CMS integration with Lumagen Radiance LUT boxes




www.lightspace.lightillusion.com





Light Illusion have lots of documentation on the principles of LUT generation, but they require you to invest a bit of effort in understanding the concepts. There are also some videos here: ColourSpace Video Guides

In terms of a dummies guide to the whole thing, folk who've trodden the path are unlikely to spend the time to document it as a process to be honest, as a large part is display specific including choices you'd make during the LUT profile and generation process, it would be a big task. You're most likely to get something like that out of folk with a financial interest in the Products (Lumagen, Light Illusion, distributors or resellers). Or maybe some enterprising type might offer remote training and assistance.


----------



## Surge2018

Mark Burton said:


> If audio nirvana is what you are after you should consider a trinnov.


I would first improve the power supply into the Lumagen 4XXX and use a PS Audio AC Regenerator for your entire system. I think these will make a more important price-performance difference. I did this, and can assert both audio and video quality improved. 
A good linear power supply will cost ~$500 for the Lumagen, and for $5000-$10,000, you can get regenerated AC Power that affects your entire system. 
I’m not knocking the new 5XXX, I’m sure it works as advertised. But for +$5000 over a 4XXX, I think the same money is better spent on the above - if you are after better audio and video quality.


----------



## Surge2018

cdnscg said:


> I read the Madvr upscales to 8k, but like you said, what's the point now.


There is no point, ever to 8K, as you’ll never sit closer than 1x screen width to notice. 
What will likely happen however, is improvements to HDR will also be bundled with 8K, which is why most of us will want to upgrade. But we are a LONG (5+ years) way off before content will be streamed in 8K.


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> Jim, I'd truly appreciate it if you could articulate why using an AVR for the switching device (with an AVR which is proven to be rock solid in its HDMI connection to the RP) "*is still not our recommended topology*". One poster on this thread continually (and categorically) asserts that there is degradation of the optimal video PQ because of the additional device in the video stream. I would like to understand, once and for all, what you feel is lost/degraded with a chain: video source -> AVR -> RP -> PJ. Thanks!


Yes, that’s me - not sure what is so hard to comprehend - the more devices/cables/connections you string together, the more you are corrupting the original source data.
Why not try it for yourself and connect the source to the Lumagen to the projector??
I also didn’t believe I could see a difference, but even with the flagship Denon 8500H, with its reduced jitter and better components over other Denon models, the difference was noticeable - notably in luma: the image was slightly brighter and “clearer” without the AVR in the chain. And the Denon 8500 was set to passthrough and do nothing to the video. It’s not a huge difference, but if you have a nice projector/display, you’ll notice it. 
And if you weren’t after the best image quality, you would not have purchased a Radiance !


----------



## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> Colorspace is very sophisticated LUT software that even pro calibrators have trouble with. Adding in the Radiance to the mix only complicates it more. Not something I would recommend to anyone to just futz around with on a whim unless you really know what you are doing. LS should have some kind of guide on how to get it to work with a Radiance as a direct display and pattern generator, if they don't you'll be pretty hard pressed to find someone that is going to take the time to walk you through that as it is not a simple feat with a few quick steps.


That's unfortunate, as I would certainly be willing to learn.
I had a calibrator scheduled to come in, but with COVID restrictions that is delayed so I figured I'd learn myself in the meantime.
I do understand the basics of calibrating with a meter and Colourspace (so it wouldn't just be futz'ng around on a whim).

I'll start my own thread in the display calibration section to gather input.


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> The Radiance integration is fairly straight forward.
> There is a Colourspace guide for Lumagen integration here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen
> 
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Video Processors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lightillusion.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there is an old Lightspace guide for Lumagen here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen User Guide
> 
> 
> LightSpace CMS integration with Lumagen Radiance LUT boxes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lightspace.lightillusion.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Light Illusion have lots of documentation on the principles of LUT generation, but they require you to invest a bit of effort in understanding the concepts. There are also some videos here: ColourSpace Video Guides
> 
> In terms of a dummies guide to the whole thing, folk who've trodden the path are unlikely to spend the time to document it as a process to be honest, as a large part is display specific including choices you'd make during the LUT profile and generation process, it would be a big task. You're most likely to get something like that out of folk with a financial interest in the Products (Lumagen, Light Illusion, distributors or resellers). Or maybe some enterprising type might offer remote training and assistance.


Thank you bobof.

I understand - I have the time to learn so will invest in it a bit and see what kind of results I get. My biggest concern is screwing something up in my Lumagen settings in loading the LUT, etc. that would make it hard to revert back.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Thank you bobof.
> 
> I understand - I have the time to learn so will invest in it a bit and see what kind of results I get. My biggest concern is screwing something up in my Lumagen settings in loading the LUT, etc. that would make it hard to revert back.


Either do the storing of the settings in the backup settings bank first (Gordon explained how a few posts back), or back it up over USB first (or both). Then you can get back to exactly where you were.


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> Either do the storing of the settings in the backup settings bank first (Gordon explained how a few posts back), or back it up over USB first (or both). Then you can get back to exactly where you were.


Good advice. Thanks again!


----------



## docrog

Surge2018 said:


> Yes, that’s me - not sure what is so hard to comprehend - the more devices/cables/connections you string together, the more you are corrupting the original source data.
> Why not try it for yourself and connect the source to the Lumagen to the projector??
> I also didn’t believe I could see a difference, but even with the flagship Denon 8500H, with its reduced jitter and better components over other Denon models, the difference was noticeable - notably in luma: the image was slightly brighter and “clearer” without the AVR in the chain. And the Denon 8500 was set to passthrough and do nothing to the video. It’s not a huge difference, but if you have a nice projector/display, you’ll notice it.
> And if you weren’t after the best image quality, you would not have purchased a Radiance !


You consistently post similar subjective opinions whenever the question of video chain is being discussed, so please provide me with some scenes from movies that you feel best represent where I would appreciate "slightly brighter" and "clearer" (vague terminology, to be sure) and I'll watch the video of any that I have access to both with & without the AVR in the path. FYI, my decision to purchase the RP was made for a variety of reasons beyond subjectively "slightly" improved PQ including: (primarily) DTM, upscaling, image enhancements and to have the ability for a more precise professional calibration.


----------



## cdnscg

docrog said:


> You consistently post similar subjective opinions whenever the question of video chain is being discussed, so please provide me with some scenes from movies that you feel best represent where I would appreciate "slightly brighter" and "clearer" (vague terminology, to be sure) and I'll watch the video of any that I have access to both with & without the AVR in the path. FYI, my decision to purchase the RP was made for a variety of reasons beyond subjectively "slightly" improved PQ including: (primarily) DTM, upscaling, image enhancements and to have the ability for a more precise professional calibration.


You may have already stated, however would be curious to know where in the chain is your RP


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> While you can use an AVR or audio processor to switch sources there are some issues and potential issues.
> 
> Since the AVRs are using HDMI switch chips, they (in my experience) always restart their output on a switch which restarts the Pro HDMI input connection which often will restart the Pro output to the projector. This causes longer, to significantly longer, switching times due to long lock on for projectors.
> 
> Some AVRs and audio processors reduce image resolution. Not all though. Historically this seems to be a reduction in Chroma bandwidth, but it is also possible they can reduce Luma bandwidth. This is in pass-through mode that should not be making any changes to the data.
> 
> We have also seen some audio processor have issues driving the Radiance video processors. Can't be 100% is it only the AVR, but other AVSs can drive the Radiance and Radiance Pro models without issue. So I suspect the AVRs work to make sure they are compatible with main stream TVs, but then stop their compatibility efforts.
> 
> If a new video feature is added (e.g. 3D, HDR), with the AVR switching you have to wait until both the AVR nad the Radiance Pro have the new feature to use it. Likely less of an issue now.


Thanks, @jrp, for that in depth answer. How would I be able to appreciate any degree of reduced chroma and luma bandwidth? Does the S&M UHD disc provide the ability to assess that? When Craig R. calibrated my NX7 & RP last year he didn't mention any unexpected/unacceptable deterioration in PQ with the AVR acting as switcher.


----------



## docrog

cdnscg said:


> You may have already stated, however would be curious to know where in the chain is your RP


My video chain is Sources -> Denon AVR-X6700H AVR -> RP -> JVC NX7 PJ. This pathway maintains the AVR GUI which is something I most definitely am determined to maintain (others here couldn't care less about the GUI) and doesn't involve looping of the audio through the RP for sources like Roku and ATV4K (which lack a discrete audio output).


----------



## bobof

I think HDMI GUI's days on AVR / AVP are done; it's got to the point where we all have computers in our pockets and a good app or web UI does a much better job. The built in web UI on the Monoprice HTP1 is a joy to behold (and the alternative web UI even more amazing).


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> I think HDMI GUI's days on AVR / AVP are done; it's got to the point where we all have computers in our pockets and a good app or web UI does a much better job. The built in web UI on the Monoprice HTP1 is a joy to behold (and the alternative web UI even more amazing).


And if I have to see the AVR's GUI at some point ( rare ), I have a 2nd HDMI cable run straight from the AVR to the 2nd HDMI input on my projector. I only need to push one button to access it. Ain't no big deal.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> I think HDMI GUI's days on AVR / AVP are done; it's got to the point where we all have computers in our pockets and a good app or web UI does a much better job. The built in web UI on the Monoprice HTP1 is a joy to behold (and the alternative web UI even more amazing).


It's fine by me if you'd prefer to take your eyes off the screen in a darkened HT to access yet another tiny device in order to reach the information options of the GUI, as opposed to pressing one (easily remembered) button on the AVR's remote control or unified remote system and viewing the information as an overlay.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> And if I have to see the AVR's GUI at some point ( rare ), I have a 2nd HDMI cable run straight from the AVR to the 2nd HDMI input on my projector. I only need to push one button to access it. Ain't no big deal.


How much sync & re-sync time does that entail? Also, I think it must be very difficult to finely adjust for lip sync issues, since the audio timing from your direct run won't be identical to the audio stream run through the RP.


----------



## Karl Maga

Craig Peer said:


> And if I have to see the AVR's GUI at some point ( rare ), I have a 2nd HDMI cable run straight from the AVR to the 2nd HDMI input on my projector. I only need to push one button to access it. Ain't no big deal.


This is exactly what I do.


----------



## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> It's fine by me if you'd prefer to take your eyes off the screen in a darkened HT to access yet another tiny device in order to reach the information options of the GUI, as opposed to pressing one (easily remembered) button on the AVR's remote control or unified remote system and viewing the information as an overlay.


Although I don't choose to do it how you do (source to AVR), I can see the desirability of it, and I think the questions you are asking are the right ones.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> It's fine by me if you'd prefer to take your eyes off the screen in a darkened HT to access yet another tiny device in order to reach the information options of the GUI, as opposed to pressing one (easily remembered) button on the AVR's remote control or unified remote system and viewing the information as an overlay.


For volume info I have done a tiny OSD overlay using the Lumagen that shows volume and surround modes (not got round to updating it for the new processor) but in general for setup the OSDs are just poorly designed and painful processes needing way too many button presses. The amount of configurability on this HTP1 would drive you insane if you had to set it up via a remote control.


----------



## docrog

@Surge2018, I had asked @jrp to specifically address about PQ when placing the RP after the AVR because of your repeated "assurances" to posters that there *had* to be PQ diminishment. His answer was: "*Some* AVRs and audio processors reduce image resolution. *Not all though*." (my bolding). I'd believe that he is likely to have the most experienced & authoritative handle on his product, yet cannot *categorically *state that subjectively reduced PQ is, by definition, a side effect of the RP after the AVR.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> @Surge2018, I had asked @jrp to specifically address about PQ when placing the RP after the AVR because of your repeated "assurances" to posters that there *had* to be PQ diminishment. His answer was: "*Some* AVRs and audio processors reduce image resolution. *Not all though*." (my bolding). I'd believe that he is likely to have the most experienced & authoritative handle on his product, yet cannot categorically state that reduced PQ is, by definition, a side effect of the RP after the AVR.


I think in fairness to everyone (with it seems some unnecessarily adversarial positions) things have changed a lot in the last few years, particularly with the proliferation of 18G 4k. It's relatively tricky to do 4K overlays etc, so many of the 4K based solutions these days are basically switches. This definitely wasn't the case a few years ago. and you could read many warnings in learned places on exactly the issues with AVRs and other devices abusing video passing through them. For example, this from the Spears and Munsill HD disc manual from 2013:










The engineer in me would say that though you can have a perfectly "functional" system; unless you do spend the effort to be sure there isn't anything going on with the video (or you know there can't be, because of the architecture) it is difficult to provably say there is no harm. 

To be sure you'd need to run a barrage of testing, either with some automated solution, or painstakingly going through test patterns. I'm guilty myself in recent time of throwing caution to the wind, and just not bothering checking, as in the case of the gear I have (that doesn't have OSD overlays) I think the risk is quite low of actual harm to the pixel data. 

The Monoprice HTP1 is perfectly functional routed before the Lumagen (which gets me more than my 4 inputs). BUT! If you are very observant and have had it set up the other way previously, you can notice some differences. Input switches work, but they're not as clean as on the Lumagen - you sometimes get a brief flicker at the switch time. And you can hear when my JVC projector attempts sync "thanks" to the eShi(f)t whine, and with the HTP1 before the Lumagen switching to sources often results in 1 more sync from the projector than the other way round. For the moment, I'm happy to trade that for the flexibility of the extra inputs.


----------



## cdnscg

docrog said:


> My video chain is Sources -> Denon AVR-X6700H AVR -> RP -> JVC NX7 PJ. This pathway maintains the AVR GUI which is something I most definitely am determined to maintain (others here couldn't care less about the GUI) and doesn't involve looping of the audio through the RP for sources like Roku and ATV4K (which lack a discrete audio output).


Are you happy with this set up or having issues? I'm considering an RP but would like to have the avr as a switcher.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> How much sync & re-sync time does that entail? Also, I think it must be very difficult to finely adjust for lip sync issues, since the audio timing from your direct run won't be identical to the audio stream run through the RP.


I don't have any lip sync issues. Those were cleaned up by Kris Deering when he calibrated my system. I've never had any issue since.


----------



## MOberhardt

cdnscg said:


> Are you happy with this set up or having issues? I'm considering an RP but would like to have the avr as a switcher.


I use the AVR as a switcher, no issues.


----------



## docrog

cdnscg said:


> Are you happy with this set up or having issues? I'm considering an RP but would like to have the avr as a switcher.


My setup has been rock solid with both the Yamaha RX-A3080 and, now, with the Denon AVR-X6700H. I'd guess that all current higher end models by these manufacturers should provide similar results. I can't speak for any other AVR manufacturer. Just remember that your cables are likely to be as contributory to your success as the connected sources. Also, the advantage of this video chain means that you'd only require a single input to the RP (as opposed to one per source) and all of the audio switching would be managed in the AVR, avoiding any potential issues with an external device which doesn't have a separate HDMI audio out (ATV4K, Roku, PS5, XBOX X, NVidia Shield, etc). This would allow you to purchase the less expensive RP 4240 (now discontinued) which only has 2 HDMI inputs.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> I don't have any lip sync issues. Those were cleaned up by Kris Deering when he calibrated my system. I've never had any issue since.


That's great for you! I've found that lip sync problems may not necessarily have a one-to-one relationship with the physical video source, but can vary by content within that same source, especially for those who stream from multiple content providers. It seems to me that if it were to occur in your HT, no professional calibration on a per source basis would automatically fix the problem.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> That's great for you! I've found that lip sync problems may not necessarily have a one-to-one relationship with the physical video source, but can vary by content within that same source, especially for those who stream from multiple content providers. It seems to me that if it were to occur in your HT, no professional calibration on a per source basis would automatically fix the problem.


For some reason I find Amazon Prime to be hands down the worst service in terms of lipsync. No idea why, but it is often so far out it's clearly not an HDMI / AVR thing, it's obviously being played miles out of sync.


----------



## westmd

Just read in the information on the new Pro 5348 about the linear power supply Keces P8. Would this also be a valuable update for the standard power supply of a Pro 4xxx?


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> For some reason I find Amazon Prime to be hands down the worst service in terms of lipsync. No idea why, but it is often so far out it's clearly not an HDMI / AVR thing, it's obviously being played miles out of sync.


Luckily all of the stuff I've watched on Amazon Prime looked fine lip sync wise. I'll knock on wood now!


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> For some reason I find Amazon Prime to be hands down the worst service in terms of lipsync. No idea why, but it is often so far out it's clearly not an HDMI / AVR thing, it's obviously being played miles out of sync.


My point, exactly with regards to the potential for content mismatch when setting up the RP lip sync on a source input basis and expecting it to port to all content.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> Luckily all of the stuff I've watched on Amazon Prime looked fine lip sync wise. I'll knock on wood now!


Two examples of consistent significant lip sync issues for me with Amazon Original content are "The Marvelous Mrs. Maizel" and "Mozart in the Jungle". I'm sure that there are many others experienced by watchers of this thread.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> Two examples of consistent significant lip sync issues for me with Amazon Original content are "The Marvelous Mrs. Maizel" and "Mozart in the Jungle". I'm sure that there are many others experienced by watchers of this thread.


Never had an issue with the first 3 seasons of "The Marvelous Mrs. Maizel" . Or Picard.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> My point, exactly with regards to the potential for content mismatch when setting up the RP lip sync on a source input basis and expecting it to port to all content.


So you are saying one show is lip sync'd and the next one isn't on the same device? Is it the same for disc based media? Because I certainly don't find that the case, and as a rule haven't over 17+ years of projector / AVR use. If I had to adjust the lip sync from one show to the next, I'd take whatever device that was with me to the shooting range, never to be seen again.  That would drive me nuts.


----------



## jont-uk

Amazon Prime is intermittently bad for lip-sync for me ... some shows are spot on - some like the football last week were out by over a second or two when the pundits were talking at half time - always through the ATV 4K ... RP is switcher as my Arcam FMJ 550 has sync and audio dropout problems if it goes in ahead of the RP or I use both video outputs for TV and PJ ... so I have to manually switch HDMI cables over for Output 2 - which is a PITA but can't find any other way around it :-(


----------



## bobof

Same here, also via the AppleTV. I've yet to find the rhyme nor reason for why.
I've just set up a FIreTV Cube which seems to sync better, but has its own quirks, like tagging 709SDR as 2020SDR it seems...
My kingdom for a streamer that just plays video properly!


----------



## WCEaglesMan

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> I have the 120420 software version and I have a 4442 Radiance Pro. Is there anything for me to gain in updating to the 011521 version? Having been a victim of the green and purple screen at one stage many versions back, I am a bit wary of updating. The maxim "if it aint broke, don't fix it" is uppermost in my mind.


Any thoughts or ideas anyone?


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> *Same here, also via the AppleTV. I've yet to find the rhyme nor reason for why.*
> I've just set up a FIreTV Cube which seems to sync better, but has its own quirks, like tagging 709SDR as 2020SDR it seems...
> My kingdom for a streamer that just plays video properly!


Ah, interesting. I've only used the Amazon Firestick 4K. I have no ATV device. And zero lip sync problems that I've seen on the Firestick.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> Ah, interesting. I've only used the Amazon Firestick 4K. I have no ATV device. And zero lip sync problems that I've seen on the Firestick.


I can testify that my wife rarely is put off by a lip sync discordancy that can drive me batty. Maybe you have a high threshold of tolerance and it doesn't register with you the way it might with someone more sensitive?


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> I can testify that my wife rarely is put off by a lip sync discordancy that can drive me batty. Maybe you have a high threshold of tolerance and it doesn't register with you the way it might with someone more sensitive?


Maybe, but I certainly don't see it on discs, which is mostly what I watch. And not on cable TV either. And I'm pretty close to my screen, so those lips are big !


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> Maybe, but I certainly don't see it on discs, which is mostly what I watch. And not on cable TV either. And I'm pretty close to my screen, so those lips are big !


I agree that it's extremely rare to see issues with Blu Rays and the cable mismatches I've seen tend to be with commentators at football and basketball events. As I'd previously mentioned, for me, the issue is most prevalent with streaming content, more often from Amazon (especially ATV4K, less prominently from Roku) than Netflix.


----------



## Craig Peer

docrog said:


> I agree that it's extremely rare to see issues with Blu Rays and the cable mismatches I've seen tend to be with commentators at football and basketball events. As I'd previously mentioned, for me, the issue is most prevalent with streaming content, more often from Amazon (especially ATV4K, less prominently from Roku) than Netflix.


Sounds like the ATV4K has some issues. I don’t have one, but if I get one I’ll be watching people’s lips, no doubt! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Craig Peer said:


> Sounds like the ATV4K has some issues. I don’t have one, but if I get one I’ll be watching people’s lips, no doubt!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have an Apple 4K TV and lipsync issues are not device depended BUT on the particular content being shown i.e. some movies have issues and most others don't. I watch Netflix and You Tube on my Apple 4K TV. So in my experience yes UHD disks are generally issue free but any streaming service has many more moving parts. So in summary I wouldn't point the finger at the Apple 4K TV device itself.


----------



## Craig Peer

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> I have an Apple 4K TV and lipsync issues are not device depended BUT on the particular content being shown i.e. some movies have issues and most others don't. I watch Netflix and You Tube on my Apple 4K TV. So in my experience yes UHD disks are generally issue free but any streaming service has many more moving parts. So in summary I wouldn't point the finger at the Apple 4K TV device itself.


Thanks - good to know. Still, so far I haven’t seen lip sync issues on the Firestick. The trouble with streaming is there can be variables. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nima

I have a CIH setup without lens and configured the Lumagen as @jrp recommended for both 2.40 and 2.35 to not have any scaler activated (bias off).

This works perfectly for 4k. But I noticed that with 1080p content the Yscaler is on (regardless whether its 2.35 or 2.40 output)? Is this normal?

Is this the 1080p to 4k scaling?


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> View attachment 3086006
> 
> I have a CIH setup without lens and configured the Lumagen as @jrp recommended for both 2.40 and 2.35 to not have any scaler activated (bias off).
> 
> This works perfectly for 4k. But I noticed that with 1080p content the Yscaler is on (regardless whether its 2.35 or 2.40 output)? Is this normal?
> 
> Is this the 1080p to 4k scaling?


Your output resolution is 4K, so you have to scale.


----------



## Nima

Yes I know but why is it only scaling Y and not X?


----------



## sjschaff

westmd said:


> Just read in the information on the new Pro 5348 about the linear power supply Keces P8. Would this also be a valuable update for the standard power supply of a Pro 4xxx?


In a prior post Jim Peterson indicated that he personally planned to order one from the U.S. distributor when they become available. I just received email that you can order one for shipment this coming Friday. See here: Keces P8 8 Amp Ultra Low Noise Linear Power Supply


----------



## bjorg

sjschaff said:


> In a prior post Jim Peterson indicated that he personally planned to order one from the U.S. distributor when they become available. I just received email that you can order one for shipment this coming Friday. See here: Keces P8 8 Amp Ultra Low Noise Linear Power Supply


There's a 9V and 19V version. Which one is the right one?


----------



## Surge2018

Karl Maga said:


> This is exactly what I do.


Me too. I have the 2nd HDMI Out from the Denon 8500 to the Projector’s 2nd input. But I never use it. For most changes to the Denon, I use the Denon App on my iPhone.

@docrog Everyone is telling you the same thing. It’s simply up to you if you want tradeoff a bit of convenience (from having the Denon UI overlayed on whatever you are watching), or having a bit better image quality. Why don’t you try it for yourself? Sorry, I have better things to do than to rewire my system, take photos, change it back, only to prove a moot point. Happy to help, if I can, with questions that add value to the community.
From the Lumagen owner’s manual, page 10:
_Lumagen recommends that the Radiance be used as the switching device for ease of operation, fastest video switching, and *best video quality*. [and note diagram where Lumagen out 1 goes to projector/display input directly]_


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> @Surge2018, I had asked @jrp to specifically address about PQ when placing the RP after the AVR because of your repeated "assurances" to posters that there *had* to be PQ diminishment. His answer was: "*Some* AVRs and audio processors reduce image resolution. *Not all though*." (my bolding). I'd believe that he is likely to have the most experienced & authoritative handle on his product, yet cannot *categorically *state that subjectively reduced PQ is, by definition, a side effect of the RP after the AVR.


Yes, but I’m telling you my Denon 8500 does reduce the image quality, which is a step up from your 6700. You seem to not want to accept reality!


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> I can testify that my wife rarely is put off by a lip sync discordancy that can drive me batty. Maybe you have a high threshold of tolerance and it doesn't register with you the way it might with someone more sensitive?


It takes a bit of experimenting to set, but once set it should not change. With my Apple TV and Oppo Bluray, I am using 114 msec of audio delay in the Denon. And I am the type that is put off if it’s not perfect. I can tell if it’s just 1 msec off...


----------



## bjorg

Surge2018 said:


> It takes a bit of experimenting to set, but once set it should not change. With my Apple TV and Oppo Bluray, I am using 114 msec of audio delay in the Denon. And I am the type that is put off if it’s not perfect. I can tell if it’s just 1 msec off...


I thought so too and then I got a Sync-One2 and boy was I wrong! YMMV


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I thought so too and then I got a Sync-One2 and boy was I wrong! YMMV


Indeed, that device is the best way to depress yourself as to the state of audio sync on players these days...


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> It takes a bit of experimenting to set, but once set it should not change. With my Apple TV and Oppo Bluray, I am using 114 msec of audio delay in the Denon. And I am the type that is put off if it’s not perfect. I can tell if it’s just 1 msec off...


You must be superman then, as 1ms is only the difference of moving your head about 30cm closer to the screen... .

If you get the SyncOne2 device you will discover just how imperfect the world is. The sync relative to the frame is frequently out on the AppleTV - playing the same test clip over again you can often get different results as the audio gets lined up differently for some reason. And don't even think about different refresh rates and codecs...


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> There's a 9V and 19V version. Which one is the right one?


The Radiance Pro DC input is 12 VDC, with at least 5 AMPs.

The Keces P8 single-output "9/12 volt" version is the correct one.

Then use the toggle switch on the back to select 12 VDC out. I am told you have to pull out on the toggle and then change the setting to switch between 9 and 12 VDC output.


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> In a prior post Jim Peterson indicated that he personally planned to order one from the U.S. distributor when they become available. I just received email that you can order one for shipment this coming Friday. See here: Keces P8 8 Amp Ultra Low Noise Linear Power Supply


I am buying a few of the Keces P8 single 9/12VDC at 8 Amps supply to have on hand. If yo uhave questions of the Keces P8 please email us at lumagen.com sales.

In addition I am buying some ghentaudio --- DC02 Oyaide 2.1G to 2.5G Canare-4S6 Cable, 2 meter DC02 Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cables to use to convert the 2.5 mm center pin output of the P8 to a 2.1 mm center pin for the Radiance Pro.


----------



## aguy

I’m having troubles with hdmi sync from my lumagen radiance pro to my Sony 550es projector. It seems to struggle to sync at when that frame rate changes after the initial sync. Most commonly the trouble arises when changing from 50p back to 24p. I end up ghost a screen full of static. 

Almost always turning the lumagen off and back on again fixes it. I’m thinking that it’s most likely cable related. My current cable is 12 metre wire world ( I think that’s the brand ). Used to work fine before my lumagen was installed. But I know the lumagen is a bit more picky. 

Wondering about recommendations on 12 m cables that are available in Australia. I don’t want to spend on something that doesn’t fix the problem. 

Also any other tips ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

aguy said:


> I’m having troubles with hdmi sync from my lumagen radiance pro to my Sony 550es projector. It seems to struggle to sync at when that frame rate changes after the initial sync. Most commonly the trouble arises when changing from 50p back to 24p. I end up ghost a screen full of static.
> 
> Almost always turning the lumagen off and back on again fixes it. I’m thinking that it’s most likely cable related. My current cable is 12 metre wire world ( I think that’s the brand ). Used to work fine before my lumagen was installed. But I know the lumagen is a bit more picky.
> 
> Wondering about recommendations on 12 m cables that are available in Australia. I don’t want to spend on something that doesn’t fix the problem.
> 
> Also any other tips ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Toggle inputs on your AVR if it is before the lumagen, or on the Lumagen.

I get this occasionally on my 760es as well, but only on startup of memory change, going from a standard 4k EDID to a 1080p one. Toggling inputs to trigger a handshake fixes it.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> I am buying a few of the Keces P8 single 9/12VDC at 8 Amps supply to have on hand. If yo uhave questions of the Keces P8 please email us at lumagen.com sales.
> 
> In addition I am buying some ghentaudio --- DC02 Oyaide 2.1G to 2.5G Canare-4S6 Cable, 2 meter DC02 Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cables to use to convert the 2.5 mm center pin output of the P8 to a 2.1 mm center pin for the Radiance Pro.


Is that to replace what is shipped with the Keces? Got this from Power Holdings:

"Steve, the Keces power supplies use a 2.5 mm and so does the Lumagen. A cable is included with the power supply."

Assuming you believe this cable is technically a better solution.

Interesting comment you made about the output select. No mention in their manual on the need to pull out the toggle to get it to work. Guess that's to prevent any change to the setting if you move the unit about.


----------



## Nima

Can anyone explain why the scaler is only using Y and not X? So it's only scaling vertically but not horizontally? Or do I have things confused? 
See screenhot a page before. 



Nima said:


> Yes I know but why is it only scaling Y and not X?


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> Can anyone explain why the scaler is only using Y and not X? So it's only scaling vertically but not horizontally? Or do I have things confused?
> See screenhot a page before.


You're into the internals of how the debug info screen works, which there are probably less than a handful of people who could answer. At a guess, perhaps that level of scaling refers to aspect stuff rather than input to output res stuff. Some experiments with the various options would allow you to work it out if you wanted to, and were able to spot how it functioned.

But... is it worth the effort? I mean, it's not like it's not doing what you need (it sounds like it is working fine, right?)!

If you really need an answer the best thing you can do is email [email protected], and they'll be able to tell you I'm sure why it is expressed in the way it is.


----------



## aguy

MOberhardt said:


> Toggle inputs on your AVR if it is before the lumagen, or on the Lumagen.
> 
> I get this occasionally on my 760es as well, but only on startup of memory change, going from a standard 4k EDID to a 1080p one. Toggling inputs to trigger a handshake fixes it.


Thanks. 

My trinnov is after the lumagen. I’ve tried toggling inputs on the lumagen and that doesn’t fix it. The only thing that fixes it is a reboot of lumagen. It’s also happening prettt much every time I change frame rate 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

aguy said:


> Thanks.
> 
> My trinnov is after the lumagen. I’ve tried toggling inputs on the lumagen and that doesn’t fix it. The only thing that fixes it is a reboot of lumagen. It’s also happening prettt much every time I change frame rate


Maybe try pressing ALT followed by PREV on the remote, which re-initiaizes the output.


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> Can anyone explain why the scaler is only using Y and not X? So it's only scaling vertically but not horizontally? Or do I have things confused?
> See screenhot a page before.


For what it is worth, it is also reporting the same on my machine with no Aspect stuff happening from 1080-4k. 4k-4k shows neither operating, and zoom reports both operation. So I'd just assume it's not quite reporting what you might think it is from the name.

For more details I think it would certainly need to come from Lumagen.


----------



## CP850-CLED

I keep on hearing about these issues with the Lumagen and Trinnov. These issues were not as prevalent before the sharpness upgrade in L and object viewer upgrade on the Trinnov. I know Jim has both, perhaps Trinnov should have a Lumagen at the factory and they could do better validation. I look forward to a future point where these matters are resolved.

Enthusiast customers seem better able to deal with these issues but some wealthy clients that do want the best performance yet want it to work reliably are not as patient. This is a hindrance to creating really high-end systems. Lumagen and Trinnov need to better collaborate to facilitate the smooth progress in the State of the Art.


----------



## bjorg

I couldn't agree more! I have one RadiancePro connected to a Trinnov Altitude and another connected to a Denon Receiver. The Trinnov takes sometimes a minute to synchronize on the audio signal (yes, I tried a 3m cable already, no change). I've never noticed anything like that with the Denon, which costs 5% of the Trinnov and uses a super short 0.5m cable! It boggles the mind!


----------



## woofer

New addition in my rack......replaces my current 4242...


----------



## bjorg

Congratz!


----------



## SJHT

Mine arrives tomorrow!


----------



## woofer

SJHT said:


> Mine arrives tomorrow!



You're going to love it..... 

From my experience so far with the 5348 , i do think @jrp is being a little "Modest" in regards to its performance.. 😀


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> Is that to replace what is shipped with the Keces? Got this from Power Holdings:
> 
> "Steve, the Keces power supplies use a 2.5 mm and so does the Lumagen. A cable is included with the power supply."
> 
> Assuming you believe this cable is technically a better solution.
> 
> Interesting comment you made about the output select. No mention in their manual on the need to pull out the toggle to get it to work. Guess that's to prevent any change to the setting if you move the unit about.


The DC input on the Radiance Pro is 2.1 mm. So you need to change the 2.5 mm Keces P8 output to a 2.1 mm.

All Radiance Pro models (including the 5348) will come with teh standard Radiance Pro switching power "brick."

The Keces P8's, and 2.5 mm to 2.1 mm DC cables, I am buying are to have some on hand should anyone want to buy one.


----------



## jrp

CP850-CLED said:


> I keep on hearing about these issues with the Lumagen and Trinnov. These issues were not as prevalent before the sharpness upgrade in L and object viewer upgrade on the Trinnov. I know Jim has both, perhaps Trinnov should have a Lumagen at the factory and they could do better validation. I look forward to a future point where these matters are resolved.
> 
> Enthusiast customers seem better able to deal with these issues but some wealthy clients that do want the best performance yet want it to work reliably are not as patient. This is a hindrance to creating really high-end systems. Lumagen and Trinnov need to better collaborate to facilitate the smooth progress in the State of the Art.


We have the new Radiance Pro 5348 driving a Trinnov Altitude 16 with no issues in our Lumagen Demo theater.

We have switched to three meter Tributaries UHDP from the Strato to the Pro, and the Pro to the Trinnov, as the final step that seems to have eliminated very infrequent audio dropouts from our Strato. The additional attenuation in these three meter cables, versus the two meter UHDP we used to have, seems to have been the last step to eliminating this rare audio drop out.

If you have the original 4k Altitude switch board (7 inputs versus eight for the new board), make sure you are using input 6 or 7 on the Altitude for the output from the Pro. These have the shortest traces, and best layout to the SII9777 input chip, and go through only one SII9777 HDMI chip (inputs 1 to 4 go through two in series).

===

Again let me point out that if you are having HDMI issues that for better or worse the solution almost certainly includes better HDMI cables.

I recommend the Tributaries UHDP for passive in the 2 to 5 meter range and the Tributaries UHDV "Vega" for longer runs. I recommend against wired Baluns, and at least for now, I also recommend against fiber only Baluns, as they have had issues in my experience.

Some projectors that say they can accept 18 GHz are marginal at 18 GHz. For these I recommend using a Radiance Pro 9 GHz output. Due to the excellent dither for the Radiance Pro 9 GHz output at 4k60, I cannot see a difference at viewing distance between the 4k60 8-bit 9 GHz output an the 4k60 12-bit 4:2:2 output even for difficult HDR content. And certainly there are projectors that work with 9 GHz output cards that do not work well with an 18 GHz output card due to the faster edge rates.

Some audio processors seem to need both audio and video to work correctly. This is of course difficult if you have a 4242 with an 18 GHz output card. If you have a 9 GHz output card, you can try enabling both audio and video on Output 1 to the audio processor to see if it helps. Note this does not seem to be the case for the Altitude 16 or 32.


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> The DC input on the Radiance Pro is 2.1 mm. So you need to change the 2.5 mm Keces P8 output to a 2.1 mm.


Jim - what is the maximum current drawn by a 4446?


----------



## *Harry*

Does anyone have experiences with this LPUs?

LPSU200 HiFi Linear Supply High Fidelity 12V + 5V 6.5A 150W

LPSU200 HiFi Linear Supply High Fidelity 12V + 12V 6.5A 200W

LPSU200 HiFi Regulated Linear Power Supply 12V 13A 200W

The product description of the first one explicit says "Equipped with an efficient EMI filter eliminating noise" and it comes with a cable with 2.1 mm jack, but the 13 A model has a big bank of capacitors as can be seen on product pictures (unfortunately this one comes with a cable with 2.5 mm jack) ...


----------



## jqmn

CP850-CLED said:


> I keep on hearing about these issues with the Lumagen and Trinnov. These issues were not as prevalent before the sharpness upgrade in L and object viewer upgrade on the Trinnov.


I changed such that my Lumagen and Trinnov don't feed a/v to each other one way or the other. My startup mode is projector, Lumagen (soft power on) and then BD player with the Trinnov being already on more than it is off (it is only getting secondary HDMI output directly from my Oppo). Most of my synch, late audio starts, 20-30 minute in audio drops and Trinnov relay ka-thunks went away on this change. However the problem now is that startup video doesn't appear unless I either soft power cycle or cycle inputs on the Lumagen. The soft cycle very quickly fixes things so it would appear the HDMI synch issue is the Lumagen acting as the in between for the BD player and projector. Despite @jrp not experiencing these behaviors many of us are. I am not sure how switching a set of certified cables (third set) that pass video and audio throughout the movie (up to 4k60 4:2:0) with no issues over to Trib Pros will solve this startup behavior.


----------



## Clark Burk

woofer said:


> You're going to love it.....
> 
> From my experience so far with the 5348 , i do think @jrp is being a little "Modest" in regards to its performance.. 😀


I'd love to have all those extra inputs. Unless I misunderstood what JRP was explaining the differences are mostly on the audio side. Is that what you are noticing in performance differences?


----------



## Kris Deering

jqmn said:


> I changed such that my Lumagen and Trinnov don't feed a/v to each other one way or the other. My startup mode is projector, Lumagen (soft power on) and then BD player with the Trinnov being already on more than it is off (it is only getting secondary HDMI output directly from my Oppo). Most of my synch, late audio starts, 20-30 minute in audio drops and Trinnov relay ka-thunks went away on this change. However the problem now is that startup video doesn't appear unless I either soft power cycle or cycle inputs on the Lumagen. The soft cycle very quickly fixes things so it would appear the HDMI synch issue is the Lumagen acting as the in between for the BD player and projector. Despite @jrp not experiencing these behaviors many of us are. I am not sure how switching a set of certified cables (third set) that pass video and audio throughout the movie (up to 4k60 4:2:0) with no issues over to Trib Pros will solve this startup behavior.


I don't understand your chain, can you elaborate?

I also run a Lumagen/Trinnov combo (SDP75). I have sources to Lumagen, Lumagen direct audio to input 7 on the SDP and video direct to RS3000. The only dropouts I've had in the last 2 months have been from a few DTS soundtracks from my Strato and they were a known issue with Trinnov that they are still investigating (they think it has to do with Neural X processing). I've played about 11 Atmos movies in the last month without a single hiccup. The initial audio synch with the SDP takes a few seconds to lock on (typically hear audio, then drop, then audio and it is good ) and you hear the relay of the clock synching during this. After that, no issues at all. I was having drop outs quite frequently when I initially installed the SDP at the end of last year, but found out that my HDMI firmware and microcode were not up to the absolute latest firmware from Trinnov (despite the main firmware being updated). After that was updated, no issues. 

I use a 3 or 4 meter Tributaries cable from the Lumagen to the Trinnov (can't remember which length off the top of my head). I've been playing content back from a Oppo 203, AppleTV and Kscape Strato.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> The DC input on the Radiance Pro is 2.1 mm. So you need to change the 2.5 mm Keces P8 output to a 2.1 mm.
> 
> All Radiance Pro models (including the 5348) will come with teh standard Radiance Pro switching power "brick."
> 
> The Keces P8's, and 2.5 mm to 2.1 mm DC cables, I am buying are to have some on hand should anyone want to buy one.


This is what I've been told in an email from Power Holdings (U.S. distributor):

"Steve, yes the included cable is 2.5 to 2.1 and it also includes an adapter that is 2.1 to 2.5 but you will not need to use that in this application. The cable is 3 ft long."

I did follow your lead and ordered up a 1.5M version of the Ghent DC02---Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cable

As the support at Power Holdings agreed:

"Ghent Audio makes great DC cables I highly recommend them. They are heavier gauge and higher quality than the stock cable and you can get any length made that you need. "


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> I don't understand your chain, can you elaborate?
> 
> I also run a Lumagen/Trinnov combo (SDP75). I have sources to Lumagen, Lumagen direct audio to input 7 on the SDP and video direct to RS3000. The only dropouts I've had in the last 2 months have been from a few DTS soundtracks from my Strato and they were a known issue with Trinnov that they are still investigating (they think it has to do with Neural X processing). I've played about 11 Atmos movies in the last month without a single hiccup. The initial audio synch with the SDP takes a few seconds to lock on (typically hear audio, then drop, then audio and it is good ) and you hear the relay of the clock synching during this. After that, no issues at all. I was having drop outs quite frequently when I initially installed the SDP at the end of last year, but found out that my HDMI firmware and microcode were not up to the absolute latest firmware from Trinnov (despite the main firmware being updated). After that was updated, no issues.
> 
> I use a 3 or 4 meter Tributaries cable from the Lumagen to the Trinnov (can't remember which length off the top of my head). I've been playing content back from a Oppo 203, AppleTV and Kscape Strato.


Thank-you for asking. Oppo 203 HDMI Output (Main) to Lumagen 18GBPS input 2; Oppo 203 HDMI Output (Audio Only) to Trinnov HDMI in 6. No outputs from Trinnov. Lumagen Output 2 (9G) to projector (Sony885ES). Prior to your and other's advice I ran Oppo203 to Lumagen, Lumagen to Trinnov, Trinnov out to projector. Lots of synch issues, Trinnov relay thunking through speakers, quick, temporary sound drop almost always around 20 minutes in or so (no loss of video) and had issues with 4KUHD of Gemini Man of various kinds. Went to Trinnov and they updated my O/S. Went to Lumagen and Jim said change cable to projector. Split device paths and replaced all non-projector run cables (kept the projector home run in place) and all problems went away (and had no issues with Gemini Man) except new problem of all devices powering up but no Oppo menu (just a blank screen) at the projector until I soft power toggle Lumagen (or sometimes switch between Lumagen input 1 and input 2). Then I get the Oppo menu. I do have an audio delay during initial studio logo (which is OK since this is basic synch). Maybe I should bring the Lumagen soft power up after Oppo instead of before and see what happens.


----------



## jrp

*Harry* said:


> Jim - what is the maximum current drawn by a 4446?


Somewhat of a moving target since we are still adding functions to the FPGA. This will also vary depending on how many active sources you have and, if you have a 444X, whether you have one or more video outputs active. At this point (ignoring power loss in the external power-brick itself) the Pro should come in the 35 Watts to perhaps 42 Watts range. The 4242 units will tend to the lower end of this, and the 444X will tend to the higher end of this. 

We still have a lot of room in the FPGA, and I could see the range changing to as much as 40 to 48 Watts as we add more FPGA logic. Can't really know until we have all the planned login in the FPGA and measure power.

I just measured a 4446-18G running 011521, with one source at 18 GHz, one output at 18 GHz, and one audio only out. It was right at 35 Watts (12.05 Volts at the DC input with 2.9 Amps). This is the unit only and does not include external power supply losses.

I could see this getting closer to 40 Watts with more active sources and driving a second 18 GHz output.

Please understand we do not have a solid handle on what the final power might end up. I think the 48 Watt number will likely be the highest we need, but please do not make decisions that limit you to 48 Watts. Also some head room from the external power supply is always nice. The Radiance Pro standard power-brick is 60 Watts and that gives some extra headroom.


----------



## MOberhardt

Regards aspect ratio switching, I has got me wondering, can the Lumagen send output full 4096 wide to a Sony projector? So if you have a 1.896:1 screen, it'll show scope material full panel width, but 16:9 material full height? If it does, I might consider a new screen... I can't go wide enough to go 2.35:1 without losing considerable height, but I could squeeze a little bit...


----------



## woofer

Clark Burk said:


> I'd love to have all those extra inputs. Unless I misunderstood what JRP was explaining the differences are mostly on the audio side. Is that what you are noticing in performance differences?


No, I haven't even delved into audio yet.....My observations are to do with Video...Yes Video! 

I 100% do see a "small" reduction in extraneous image noise and ........intricate "Detail" in certain aspects of the image is improved! 

Yourself and any others are most welcome to be sceptical............ To be very truthful though  ...i don't really care as ultimately the only person that the end results has to please is ME !! and at his moment in time the "Smile" is 😀 

I am setting up a fairly in depth comparison between my 4242 and the 5348 on the weekend .....

Just PLEASE..... "Don't" dismiss the notion of "Improved Video" in regards to the 5348...

Audio......will get to this aspect........... but i have i no doubt this will be noticeably improved over the 4242.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Somewhat of a moving target since we are *still adding functions to the FPGA.* *We still have a lot of room in the FPGA*, and I could see the range changing to as much as 40 to 48 Watts as we add more FPGA logic. Can't really know until we have all the planned login in the FPGA and measure power.


Jim, with regards to "still adding functions to the FPGA" and "still have a lot of room in the FPGA", were you referring solely to the newly released model or will these anticipated changes be retroactive to the 42xx series? Thanks!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

the new unit and the current ones have same size FPGA.


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> the new unit and the current ones have same size FPGA.


Thanks for your reply regarding FPGA capacity. I'm aware of some potential pipeline changes that are being worked on for the RP, but my question is whether or not other future updates for the 42XX series will mirror those for the 5348?


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks for your reply regarding FPGA capacity. I'm aware of some potential pipeline changes that are being worked on for the RP, but my question is whether or not other future updates for the 42XX series will mirror those for the 5348?


I did ask the question earlier, and the answer from Jim was (my emphasis):


jrp said:


> *If we do a special FPGA load for the 5XXX we will consider making it available for the 4XXX models, for a fee*. This would be a 4k centric version, which might change the status of, not only vertical-keystone, and PiP/PoP, but Darbee as well. So those who have a lot of 1080 and lower resolution content my not be interested. The current work for the pipeline enhancements needs to be completed and then we can know more about available gates in the FPGA. The changes for the proposed special load would further improve pipeline precision beyond the current work, and perhaps allow us to consider additional features. Any such special release is a long way out and may never happen. That's all I can say at the moment.


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> We still have a lot of room in the FPGA, and I could see the range changing to as much as 40 to 48 Watts as we add more FPGA logic. Can't really know until we have all the planned login in the FPGA and measure power.


Thanks - perfect reply! 

So let's assume we have 50 W -> that would be a maximum of about 4.2 A on 12 V and is still low enough for the switching PSU you ship with the pro (I got a 5 A model)

Just out of interest my focus currently is on the LPSU100 - a 12 V / 6.5 A model with EMI filter.
(KECES P8 are much to expensive here in Germany).
I just wonder why they specify "150 W", as the max possible current load is 6.5 A on 12 V + 5 V in total ... ( = 78W w/o losses).


----------



## dlinsley

*Harry* said:


> I just wonder why they specify "150 W", as the max possible current load is 6.5 A on 12 V + 5 V in total ... ( = 78W w/o losses).


That's 6.5A on each, so 110W total. Given how linear supplies work, 150W max draw from the wall side sounds about right.


----------



## avsform1

Might want to start a new thread for the the latest Lumagen VP, so that people don't have to sift pass all of the 4k series of the Lumagen pro. AKA Official Lumagen Radiance 5000 series.


----------



## raullopez1234

woofer said:


> No, I haven't even delved into audio yet.....My observations are to do with Video...Yes Video!
> 
> I 100% do see a "small" reduction in extraneous image noise and ........intricate "Detail" in certain aspects of the image is improved!
> 
> Yourself and any others are most welcome to be sceptical............ To be very truthful though  ...i don't really care as ultimately the only person that the end results has to please is ME !! and at his moment in time the "Smile" is 😀
> 
> I am setting up a fairly in depth comparison between my 4242 and the 5348 on the weekend .....
> 
> Just PLEASE..... "Don't" dismiss the notion of "Improved Video" in regards to the 5348...
> 
> Audio......will get to this aspect........... but i have i no doubt this will be noticeably improved over the 4242.


How about adding that envy pro you have to the in depth comparison.


----------



## bobof

avsform1 said:


> Might want to start a new thread for the the latest Lumagen VP, so that people don't have to sift pass all of the 4k series of the Lumagen pro. AKA Official Lumagen Radiance 5000 series.


Given all the FPGA and most of the firmware operation is common, does it really make sense? I can't see that operationally there is that much difference between them to merit a different thread. But maybe there is, who knows.


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Regards aspect ratio switching, I has got me wondering, can the Lumagen send output full 4096 wide to a Sony projector? So if you have a 1.896:1 screen, it'll show scope material full panel width, but 16:9 material full height? If it does, I might consider a new screen... I can't go wide enough to go 2.35:1 without losing considerable height, but I could squeeze a little bit...


Yes, the Lumagen can be setup for 4096 output to use full panel width of Sony/JVC 4K projectors.


----------



## MOberhardt

MOberhardt said:


> Regards aspect ratio switching, I has got me wondering, can the Lumagen send output full 4096 wide to a Sony projector? So if you have a 1.896:1 screen, it'll show scope material full panel width, but 16:9 material full height? If it does, I might consider a new screen... I can't go wide enough to go 2.35:1 without losing considerable height, but I could squeeze a little bit...


Anyone? TIA


----------



## woofer

raullopez1234 said:


> How about adding that envy pro you have to the in depth comparison.


Sorry....Been there , done that...


----------



## raullopez1234

woofer said:


> Sorry....Been there , done that...


So is the Lumagen Radiance Pro better than an envy in you unbiased opinion?


----------



## woofer

raullopez1234 said:


> So is the Lumagen Radiance Pro better than an envy in you unbiased opinion?


In my setup...Yes..


----------



## aguy

Kris Deering said:


> Yes, the Lumagen can be setup for 4096 output to use full panel width of Sony/JVC 4K projectors.


This is interesting. 

Do you have any links or knowledge about how Sony projectors handle the difference between 4096 and 3840. Ie when fed 3840 x 2160 do they use a subset of pixels and maintain 1:1 aspect mapping of vertical resolution. Or do they scale horizontally to 4096 and then change the vertical pixel mapping?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

aguy said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Do you have any links or knowledge about how Sony projectors handle the difference between 4096 and 3840. Ie when fed 3840 x 2160 do they use a subset of pixels and maintain 1:1 aspect mapping of vertical resolution. Or do they scale horizontally to 4096 and then change the vertical pixel mapping?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Sony will do the scaling if you have it set to that mode with a 3840 signal.. So it is still taking a 3840 wide signal. I don't even know if a 4096 wide outut from the Lumagen so I thought I'd ask. The Sony manuals indicate a 4096 input is accepted . It mentions in the motion flow settings 'Only “Off” or “Impulse” is available when a signal with a resolution of 4096 × 2160 is input.'


----------



## Kris Deering

aguy said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Do you have any links or knowledge about how Sony projectors handle the difference between 4096 and 3840. Ie when fed 3840 x 2160 do they use a subset of pixels and maintain 1:1 aspect mapping of vertical resolution. Or do they scale horizontally to 4096 and then change the vertical pixel mapping?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you FEED a Sony 4096 from a Lumagen, the Lumagen does all the correction for aspect. The only benefit you are getting here is you'd gain roughly 5% in brightness IF you change your zoom for the wider image you have now (and that brightness bump is because of the ZOOM change, not the fact that you added the extra pixels!!). If you have the SONY do the stretch to use the full panel (in their aspect settings), it does the aspect adjustment itself. There is info about that in the Sony user manual. JVC has a similar feature.


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> The Sony will do the scaling if you have it set to that mode with a 3840 signal.. So it is still taking a 3840 wide signal. I don't even know if a 4096 wide outut from the Lumagen so I thought I'd ask. The Sony manuals indicate a 4096 input is accepted . It mentions in the motion flow settings 'Only “Off” or “Impulse” is available when a signal with a resolution of 4096 × 2160 is input.'


Correct. If you feed 4096 from the Lumagen, you are limited in the Motion Flow settings on the Sony. If the Sony does the stretch you are not, but that is because it does the Motion Flow BEFORE it does the scale. It can't do the motion flow with a pre-scaled image.


----------



## Clark Burk

raullopez1234 said:


> So is the Lumagen Radiance Pro better than an envy in you unbiased opinion?


With both units undergoing constant firmware updates the possibility exists that at any given time one may have a slight edge in a particular aspect. These are the two best options at this time and I doubt you could go wrong with either choice.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> If you FEED a Sony 4096 from a Lumagen, the Lumagen does all the correction for aspect. The only benefit you are getting here is you'd gain roughly 5% in brightness IF you change your zoom for the wider image you have now (and that brightness bump is because of the ZOOM change, not the fact that you added the extra pixels!!). If you have the SONY do the stretch to use the full panel (in their aspect settings), it does the aspect adjustment itself. There is info about that in the Sony user manual. JVC has a similar feature.


Two questions about this:

1) I have a 16:9 screen, would there be any benefit to doing the zoom change to gain the 5% brightness? I assume that if you feed 4096 from a Lumagen, then there is a downside (you're either stretching/compressing the image in some fashion, or losing some picture info to avoid distorting the image).

2) What setting for a Sony 885ES would have the Sony do the stretch? I can't find it in the manual.

Thanks!

Chris


----------



## MOberhardt

Kris Deering said:


> Correct. If you feed 4096 from the Lumagen, you are limited in the Motion Flow settings on the Sony. If the Sony does the stretch you are not, but that is because it does the Motion Flow BEFORE it does the scale. It can't do the motion flow with a pre-scaled image.


OK thanks so the Lumagen can output 4096. 

So getting back to my original question then, with this auto aspect ratio switching, if I had a 1.89:1 screen, I could get the lumagen configured to, if the movie was 2.35:1, it would scale it to full panel width, 4096x2160 (and that includes blu-ray) and slightly higher image, but if the movie was 16:19, it would output 3840x2160? So for scope I'd get slightly wider, but 16:9, not lose any height.


----------



## blake

MOberhardt said:


> OK thanks so the Lumagen can output 4096.
> 
> So getting back to my original question then, with this auto aspect ratio switching, if I had a 1.89:1 screen, I could get the lumagen configured to, if the movie was 2.35:1, it would scale it to full panel width, 4096x2160 (and that includes blu-ray) and slightly higher image, but if the movie was 16:19, it would output 3840x2160? So for scope I'd get slightly wider, but 16:9, not lose any height.


What confuses me is what the projector (in my case JVC rs4500) will do with a Lumagen signal scaled to 4096. 

If JVC is set to aspect=auto, does the projector then compress the 4096 signal back down to 16:9 /3840 (which would make no sense, since your downscaling just to lose pixels on the panel). 

Would aspect=zoom mode then be necessary to place the 4096 Lumagen signal on the full 17:9 / 4096 LCoS panel, 1:1 , ie no projector scaling ? It would seem this mode would be desired but I am not sure if it works like this. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

blake said:


> What confuses me is what the projector (in my case JVC rs4500) will do with a Lumagen signal scaled to 4096.
> 
> If JVC is set to aspect=auto, does the projector then compress the 4096 signal back down to 16:9 /3840 (which would make no sense, since your downscaling just to lose pixels on the panel).
> 
> Would aspect=zoom mode then be necessary to place the 4096 Lumagen signal on the full 17:9 / 4096 LCoS panel, 1:1 , ie no projector scaling ? It would seem this mode would be desired but I am not sure if it works like this.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On the Sony I think you need to use the 2.35:1 Zoom AR vs Normal for a 3840 signal. I was playing about with it earlier with lens memory. With a 4096 signal, I'd expect just use Normal AR and make sure the Blanking setting is off.


----------



## fatherom

Yeah, I'm mega confused at this point on how this would work (feeding 4096 from the Lumagen to the projector, or using the projector to change aspect). It seems like something is going to get cropped or shrunk or expanded, or something.


----------



## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> Yeah, I'm mega confused at this point on how this would work (feeding 4096 from the Lumagen to the projector, or using the projector to change aspect). It seems like something is going to get cropped or shrunk or expanded, or something.


Well with the sony, AR normal, bring up the test pattern. It does show the bounding box for the entire panel width. So if it had a 4096x2160 input, that should just show, 1:1


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> Well with the sony, AR normal, bring up the test pattern. It does show the bounding box for the entire panel width. So if it had a 4096x2160 input, that should just show, 1:1


Right, but no actual content is in that ratio/resolution. So if you're watching a 1080p movie or a 2160p movie, and having either the lumagen or the Sony scale to that wider width of 4096, what effect does that have on the image? Stretched? Cropped?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bearcat2002

This is interesting as I’ve just dealt with this for a few years because I didn’t think there was a fix. I have a 16:9 screen and the Sony is always spilling about 3” of light on both sides of the screen frame. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> Right, but no actual content is in that ratio/resolution. So if you're watching a 1080p movie or a 2160p movie, and having either the lumagen or the Sony scale to that wider width of 4096, what effect does that have on the image? Stretched? Cropped?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because theretically I could have a 17:9 screen and have the Lumagen handle the scaling and aspect ratio "shifting" without having to do anything on the projector. Once again, it sees the image is 16:9 so doesn't scale it. It sees the image is 2.35:1 and does the scaling. And I'd expect the Lumagen would do it better. I couldn't do that on the projector without having to manually change aspect mode from Normal to 2.35:1 zoom - and I'd have to use the projector scaling,


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> We still have a lot of room in the FPGA


Still room for geometry correction? 😇 That is the only feature the Envy Extreme will get that I am really longing for as a radiance owner.


----------



## PeterLarsson

EVH78 said:


> Still room for geometry correction? 😇 That is the only feature the Envy Extreme will get that I am really longing for as a radiance owner.


Just out of curiosity, why should one need a geometry correction, can you please share some examples?

@jrp How is it going with Harmony and new codes to support what is on the new remote? Is there a new control in Harmony or is it still the old Radiance XD that one need to use?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

PeterLarsson said:


> Just out of curiosity, why should one need a geometry correction, can you please share some examples?
> 
> @jrp How is it going with Harmony and new codes to support what is on the new remote? Is there a new control in Harmony or is it still the old Radiance XD that one need to use?


I think they need to send new remote to Harmony and as they have no new rmeotes i think it'll be a few months before there is a new set of codes in their database.


----------



## *Harry*

dlinsley said:


> That's 6.5A on each, so 110W total. Given how linear supplies work, 150W max draw from the wall side sounds about right.


Yes on each. First reply from the store was "6.5 A in total for both of the LPSU200 with 12 V + 5 V output".
In a second reply they made it more clear: "6.5 A for 12V and in addition 6.5 A on 5 V".
That's about 110 W at maximum load, what makes the 150 W specification plausible.

They also have the LPSU100 with single voltage output 12 V / 6.5 A (100 W). Lots of capacitors, but it's not clear, if this one also has an EMI filter compared with the LPSU200 line.
A 2x 12 V / 6.5 A each (200W) model is also available in the LPSU200 line.

However, for the Radiance Pro the LPSU100 and LPSU200 product line looks very interesting as an inexpensive alternative to the KECES P8
At least for people here in Europe ( ... + my favorite UK seller Gordon  ), as these LPUs are primarily designed for 230 VAC (maybe they can provide 115 VAC variants also)

LPSU100 12 V models
LPSU200 12 V models


----------



## PeterLarsson

Gordon Fraser said:


> I think they need to send new remote to Harmony and as they have no new rmeotes i think it'll be a few months before there is a new set of codes in their database.


OK great Gordon, thanks!


----------



## sjschaff

Question: recently I've noticed occasionally when I use my Harmony to turn on my system the one thing that will happen is that I get a blue screen rather than an image coming from the Lumagen. The way I fix it is to switch HDMI input on my JVC RS3000 to HDMI 2 and then back to where the cable is plugged in. All else is fine. The two outputs from the Lumagen are both 18ghz and using output 3 for audio and output 4 to the JVC. 

I'm guessing I may need to alter some delays. Currently the JVC has a 37.5s delay before it receives any other commands, and 1000ms prior to input delay switching, and the inter-device delay is 1500ms for the activity. As for the Lumagen it's has a short power on delay of 2.25sec and same delays as the JVC for input & inter-device delays. The Anthem D2V audio processor is using a 33s power on delay, and 1000ms input delay along with the 1500ms inter-device delay.

The start sequence is JVC - Anthem - Lumagen - source followed by setting inputs for JVC then Anthem and finally Lumagen. Also, the last bit of the sequence is for the Lumangen to receive the CLEAR command.

I'm not sure what is possibly causing the problem but I'm guessing it has to do with EDID related process/timing. Just unclear what to change. Anyone know???


----------



## Ironman1718

sjschaff said:


> Question: recently I've noticed occasionally when I use my Harmony to turn on my system the one thing that will happen is that I get a blue screen rather than an image coming from the Lumagen. The way I fix it is to switch HDMI input on my JVC RS3000 to HDMI 2 and then back to where the cable is plugged in. All else is fine. The two outputs from the Lumagen are both 18ghz and using output 3 for audio and output 4 to the JVC.
> 
> I'm guessing I may need to alter some delays. Currently the JVC has a 37.5s delay before it receives any other commands, and 1000ms prior to input delay switching, and the inter-device delay is 1500ms for the activity. As for the Lumagen it's has a short power on delay of 2.25sec and same delays as the JVC for input & inter-device delays. The Anthem D2V audio processor is using a 33s power on delay, and 1000ms input delay along with the 1500ms inter-device delay.
> 
> The start sequence is JVC - Anthem - Lumagen - source followed by setting inputs for JVC then Anthem and finally Lumagen. Also, the last bit of the sequence is for the Lumangen to receive the CLEAR command.
> 
> I'm not sure what is possibly causing the problem but I'm guessing it has to do with EDID related process/timing. Just unclear what to change. Anyone know???


I had the same issue with mine. JVC - Trinnov - Lumagen. I had to set the lumagen in Control4 to a 40+ sec delay. Now is works perfectly, no more blue screen. I’m guessing its the same in the Logitech.


----------



## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> Just out of curiosity, why should one need a geometry correction, can you please share some examples?


Great feature when using an anamorphic lens.


----------



## LJG

woofer said:


> No, I haven't even delved into audio yet.....My observations are to do with Video...Yes Video!
> 
> I 100% do see a "small" reduction in extraneous image noise and ........intricate "Detail" in certain aspects of the image is improved!
> 
> Yourself and any others are most welcome to be sceptical............ To be very truthful though  ...i don't really care as ultimately the only person that the end results has to please is ME !! and at his moment in time the "Smile" is 😀
> 
> I am setting up a fairly in depth comparison between my 4242 and the 5348 on the weekend .....
> 
> Just PLEASE..... "Don't" dismiss the notion of "Improved Video" in regards to the 5348...
> 
> Audio......will get to this aspect........... but i have i no doubt this will be noticeably improved over the 4242.


Looking forward to your comparison of the 4242 and 5348 this weekend!


----------



## aguy

I just watched allegiant the 4k uhd version. 

I’m loving the DTM from the lumagen more and more. I’ve honestly never seen HDR done so well on my projector previously. 

Before using the lumagen I used to prefer the standard blu ray because of the rec 709 use. It just looked better than my Sony 550es tone mapping a HDR disc. But now with the lumagen doing DTM for hdr there is no competition the 4k hdr version is always stunning. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## edthomp

Can anyone clarify what seems like a contradiction on the Lumagen supplied power supply?
On one side it indicates an output of 12V @ 5A (which is what I think it actually is).
And on the other side it indicates 5V @ 4A.
It isn't logical that they both would be true. Or where am I confused?


----------



## bobof

edthomp said:


> Can anyone clarify what seems like a contradiction on the Lumagen supplied power supply?
> On one side it indicates an output of 12V @ 5A (which is what I think it actually is).
> And on the other side it indicates 5V @ 4A.
> It isn't logical that they both would be true. Or where am I confused?
> View attachment 3088189
> 
> View attachment 3088190


Are these on the same PSU you have in your hands, or from various web images?
The white label is added by Lumagen, the black one from the PSU vendor. If these are on the same PSU, looks like someone just stuck the wrong label on it.
I think 5VDC 4Amps was the Mini and XS.


----------



## edthomp

bobof said:


> Are these on the same PSU you have in your hands, or from various web images?
> The white label is added by Lumagen, the black one from the PSU vendor. If these are on the same PSU, looks like someone just stuck the wrong label on it.
> I think 5VDC 4Amps was the Mini and XS.


They are on each side of the same power supply. I just turned it over and took the picture.


----------



## bobof

edthomp said:


> They are on each side of the same power supply. I just turned it over and took the picture.


Sounds like misadventure at the hands of the label machine .


----------



## *Harry*

That's just a little mistake.
Exactly the same PS model came with my 4446 -> QADA-65-12-0801


----------



## Gordon Fraser

yes it's just they put wrong label on it. All Radiance Pro use the 12v 5amp supply.


----------



## Surge2018

I’m continuing to notice that iTunes HDR movies are consistently brighter than Netflix HDR, when viewed on Apple TV. Anyone else notice that? Dyn Pad must be adjusted a few increments depending on the source.


----------



## jrp

edthomp said:


> Can anyone clarify what seems like a contradiction on the Lumagen supplied power supply?
> On one side it indicates an output of 12V @ 5A (which is what I think it actually is).
> And on the other side it indicates 5V @ 4A.
> It isn't logical that they both would be true. Or where am I confused?
> View attachment 3088189
> 
> View attachment 3088190


Looks like we put the wrong sticker on the supply. Believe the Qualtek numbers.

The label is form our older RadianceXS and RadianceMini models.


----------



## woofer

Just some follow up on the New .Radiance 5348.  

Starting to put quite a bit of time behind my New 5348 now, so this weekend i set up a little comparison with my Radiance 4242 .

Each Radiance is fed from a separate Oppo 203 , Each gets power from the Uptone Audio JS2 LPS......Each goes to Input 1 and Input 2 respectively on my Z1/RS4500. Audio from each of the Radiance Pro,s is to my NAD M17 V2 Processor.
Main Amp for the Wilson speakers is an Esoteric S-1 Grandioso.

I will start with VIDEO as that is the utmost importance to "me" .

Is there a "big" difference in Video performance between the 5348 and the 4242 ?? ...NO... Is there "any" difference in Video between the 5348 and the 4242 ??.... YES...

I absolutely see a reduction in image/video noise on the 5248 ! it certainly isn't "in your face" , but it "IS" there. 

The other thing i am noticing is the increased "Fine" "Intricate" detail !
Detail in clothing such as woollen fibres on jumpers, texture on leather, stitching on suits , facial features , small fine text .. and many many more examples. 
Backgrounds , distant objects have that added bit of clarity, which gives the impression of better focus.
I am thinking this is not a case of the 5348 "Adding" more detail than the 4242, BUT a case of the already present detail just being more readily apparent with the 5348 due to the reduced image/Video noise .

I will just add that i am "Extremely" sensitive to ANY image/Video noise......its a trait that i sometimes wish i didn't possess!

AUDIO....

This is easy....... 

There is a noticeable difference in presentation between the 5348 and the 4242 ! The 5348 brings the soundstage to a more dynamic level than the 4242 ...its almost like a different EQ curve is applied.
The 4242 in basic terms sound "Flatter" slightly more "Laid back" in comparison to the 5348 . 

In both cases of Audio / Video "IF" the 5348 wasn't present for a "Direct" comparison to the 4242, you would not be aware of the above. 


A friend who was present today for the comparison is selling off his madVR Envy PRO and upgrading ( purchasing) my Radiance 4242 .


The 4242 has provided me with the best images i have ever had in my theatre, the 5348 just adds that little bit of "icing on the cake" . 

Jim Peterson has done a wonderful job with the development of the Radiance Pro series .


----------



## joerod

Any nice screen shots of the movies you watched or compared?


----------



## turls

If anyone is still using a DirecTV C61K -- this has always been the most problematic box in my stack for the Radiance Pro (which I've had since 2015, but have upgraded to 18G inputs). With my Sony 1100ES, I will go for months where it either still not work well with HLG programming, or won't output 4K at all. Sometimes it seems to be a sync issue as I get a black screen, but other times I can still see the Radiance menu, just no picture. I was stuck the last few months where when I tried to do 4K output and the menu info showed NO output from the C61K. 
Played with it off and on, used jrp's suggestions, swapped cables (which I've already done over the years numerous times). Finally, something kicked in when I changed the Global EDID setting from 18G to 9G. Now it is working again. I didn't even have to change the EDID setting permanently. 
Maybe this will help somebody else, or maybe it will only work temporarily like every other time I've got it working. Just in time for the non-4K Super Bowl lol.


----------



## Karl Maga

joerod said:


> Any nice screen shots of the movies you watched or compared?





joerod said:


> I really don’t think it’s fair to compare these devices. One is 5 or 6 years old technology with a newer version coming out which still is pretty much the same. The Envy as mentioned above has way more features and newer HDMI which alone makes it not fair.
> 
> Success breeds followers and there’s good reason why the Envy is selling out as fast as they can make them.


A wolf in sheep’s clothing? 😉


----------



## Clark Burk

woofer said:


> Just some follow up on the New .Radiance 5348.
> 
> I will start with VIDEO as that is the utmost importance to "me" .
> 
> Is there a "big" difference in Video performance between the 5348 and the 4242 ?? ...NO... Is there "any" difference in Video between the 5348 and the 4242 ??.... YES...
> 
> I absolutely see a reduction in image/video noise on the 5248 ! it certainly isn't "in your face" , but it "IS" there.
> 
> The other thing i am noticing is the increased "Fine" "Intricate" detail !
> Detail in clothing such as woollen fibres on jumpers, texture on leather, stitching on suits , facial features , small fine text .. and many many more examples.
> Backgrounds , distant objects have that added bit of clarity, which gives the impression of better focus.
> I am thinking this is not a case of the 5348 "Adding" more detail than the 4242, BUT a case of the already present detail just being more readily apparent with the 5348 due to the reduced image/Video noise .
> 
> I will just add that i am "Extremely" sensitive to ANY image/Video noise......its a trait that i sometimes wish i didn't possess!
> 
> AUDIO....
> 
> This is easy.......
> 
> There is a noticeable difference in presentation between the 5348 and the 4242 ! The 5348 brings the soundstage to a more dynamic level than the 4242 ...its almost like a different EQ curve is applied.
> The 4242 in basic terms sound "Flatter" slightly more "Laid back" in comparison to the 5348 .
> 
> In both cases of Audio / Video "IF" the 5348 wasn't present for a "Direct" comparison to the 4242, you would not be aware of the above.


Thanks for the comparison! How would you scale the difference you noticed between the 5348 and the 4242 in your comparison with the difference between the 4242 with the standard switching power supply and the linear power supply of the JS-2?


----------



## 187crew003

having a discsussion with a friend. what is the expected lifespan of a radiance pro? is there a failure rate after a certain point? is it luck of the draw (like with all electronics?)


----------



## Surge2018

187crew003 said:


> having a discsussion with a friend. what is the expected lifespan of a radiance pro? is there a failure rate after a certain point? is it luck of the draw (like with all electronics?)


I don’t think anyone can answer that. It’s basically a well-built computer, with an internal fan and otherwise no moving parts. The power supply is external, that’s the most likely to fail; but the expected lifespan of that is posted on the Lumagen website. I think you’re going to want to upgrade before it fails!


----------



## BrolicBeast

I've shot a quick 1 minute Lumagen Radiance 5348 teaser for YouTube...a full review is coming, but whoa.... absolutely a difference! The audio is sooo much more detailed and there's more depth to the soundstage. I echo @woofer 's comments above wholeheartedly!

I'll add, a perfect A/B track is the high res version of "Marry Me" by CHLARA (from HD Tracks). Acoustics, stereo mixing, and vocals are stunning. 

I'll be doing a comparison of the Radiance 4 and 5 series for YouTube in the coming weeks, but here's the teaser: 






Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## 187crew003

Surge2018 said:


> I don’t think anyone can answer that. It’s basically a well-built computer, with an internal fan and otherwise no moving parts. The power supply is external, that’s the most likely to fail; but the expected lifespan of that is posted on the Lumagen website. I think you’re going to want to upgrade before it fails!


you mean upgrade the power supply?


----------



## Surge2018

187crew003 said:


> you mean upgrade the power supply?


No, the power supply it comes with is good quality. But you can always upgrade to get an improvement in image and audio - I have done so. I’m a big believer in the importance of incomIng power. I have a PS Audio P20 that provides the entire system with regenerated AC - makes a very big difference.


----------



## sjschaff

BrolicBeast said:


> I've shot a quick 1 minute Lumagen Radiance 5348 teaser for YouTube...a full review is coming, but whoa.... absolutely a difference! The audio is sooo much more detailed and there's more depth to the soundstage. I echo @woofer 's comments above wholeheartedly!
> 
> I'll add, a perfect A/B track is the high res version of "Marry Me" by CHLARA (from HD Tracks). Acoustics, stereo mixing, and vocals are stunning.
> 
> I'll be doing a comparison of the Radiance 4 and 5 series for YouTube in the coming weeks, but here's the teaser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Do you find the source determinative of audio improvements? I'm guessing that the better the quality of the source material, the better the audio. That's been the case with stereo systems as well. Garbage in - garbage out. Just gets magnified with better playback technology. Examples of what you've tested would certainly help point this out.


----------



## BrolicBeast

sjschaff said:


> Do you find the source determinative of audio improvements? I'm guessing that the better the quality of the source material, the better the audio. That's been the case with stereo systems as well. Garbage in - garbage out. Just gets magnified with better playback technology. Examples of what you've tested would certainly help point this out.


Yeah the higher the source quality, the better the output. But the same high quality source playes through the 5 series sounds better than the 4 series. I have both here. My plan is to A/B them with my wife in the equipment room manning the cables..same HDMI cable, same power outlet (will be plugging/unplugging from wall power). Will also take measurements. Might invite one or two local audiophiles over as well to take part in the test. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

I also upgraded to a new 5348. Audio seems improved. I’m running a Trinnov Alt32 and KEF Reference speakers. Video just a tad bit in my early testing. But it just seems a bit cleaner for whatever reason. Likely unrelated, but these units are the first to also use a new batch of SiI9777 input chips and according to Jim has new features.


----------



## aguy

Interesting that there is a comment on the trinnov forum at the moment about someone thinking that their audio quality is better when audio is going directly to their trinnov rather than via their lumagen...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

187crew003 said:


> having a discsussion with a friend. what is the expected lifespan of a radiance pro? is there a failure rate after a certain point? is it luck of the draw (like with all electronics?)


I used to own radiance 2 series back in 2015 and since 2017 pro version not a single failure on any of them, also most of the parts are easy replaceable if any of them will fail, but honestly I didn't hear of any fails, only one member stated the fan has burned, which was a quick swap and very cheap. It's a very good high quality build product. 

Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> I also upgraded to a new 5348. Audio seems improved. I’m running a Trinnov Alt32 and KEF Reference speakers. Video just a tad bit in my early testing. But it just seems a bit cleaner for whatever reason. Likely unrelated, but these units are the first to also use a new batch of SiI9777 input chips and according to Jim has new features.


The new SiI9777 changes are to support HDCP 2.3. We have not been told of any functional change for video for these new chips. The video and audio improvement for the 5348 is due to lower jitter and lower electrical noise. In fact the first 5348 units being reported on now have the older 18 GHz chip revision (at least most all do).

The 18 GHz chip revision initially did make my heart skip a beat when they did not pass HDCP 2.2. Surprise!

Turns out unlike we were led to believe we needed to get a special encrypted company ID to add into our copy of the chip microcode to identify Lumagen as the chip purchaser. We knew the new company ID key was needed but thought that the chip vendor was adding it during manufacturing. All sorted now, and the support from the chip vendor on getting us the right encrypted company ID key was great.

For reference: About half of the Radiance Pro 5348 in the pilot run use the new 18 GHz chip revision. All Radiance Pro 5348 units built from now on will use the new 18 GHz chip revision. We have some18 GHz I/O boards in stock for the Radiance Pro 4XXX series. These have the older 18 GHz chip revision. Once these are used up, all future 4XXX 18G I/O card builds will use the new 18 GHz chip revision. This information should be moot to everyone since the chips are supposed to be identical in video function.

We do not expect any differences with the new 18 GHz chip revision, but of course if there are issues please report the issues to us at Lumagen.com support.


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> Interesting that there is a comment on the trinnov forum at the moment about someone thinking that their audio quality is better when audio is going directly to their trinnov rather than via their lumagen...


Maybe they have video and audio and perhaps Genlock enabled, both of which can affect audio. Also might be the older non-microwave capacitor version using 9 GHz output cards.

I can say the feedback I get is the Trinnov sounds better through the Radiance Pro and this includes my own experience in our Lumagen Demo Theater.


----------



## 187crew003

jrp said:


> Maybe they have video and audio and perhaps Genlock enabled, both of which can affect audio. Also might be the older non-microwave capacitor version using 9 GHz output cards.
> 
> I can say the feedback I get is the Trinnov sounds better through the Radiance Pro and this includes my own experience in our Lumagen Demo Theater.


Is there a way to tel if the unit is using the non-microwave capacitors?


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> We just posted the first public release that includes the Radiance Pro 5348 (011521).
> 
> You will see it includes new remote buttons for a new Lumagen remote. Since we will get questions about this here is some preemptive information:
> 
> The new Radiance Pro remote has additional buttons tobring up the HDR parameter menu, 1.9, 2.0, and 2.2 source aspect, a Save button (press Save and then OK to save), Pattern activate, and buttons to temporarily disable or re-enable image based auto aspect.
> 
> A couple comments on auto-aspect disable and enable. You must have auto-aspect for image or HDMI+image enabled in the auto aspect menu for these to have any effect. The intended use if for content that irritatingly change aspect ration in the content itself. For example for a movie like Batman Begins, after the movie starts (if you have an anamorphic screen) press disable and auto aspect will leave the aspect where it is (at that point in the movie it is 2.40). Another example is commercials on TV. While watching 16:9content you can press disable to temporarily keep auto-aspect from responding to an aspect ratio change in the content. Then if you should happen to start watching a 2.0 content show, press Enable to again activate Auto-aspect.
> 
> We were supposed to have the new Radiance Remote already but we ran into delays due to COVID, then delays because we are "the little guys" and the vendor freely admits the orders for 100000 remotes get preference over the small Lumagen order. Then we just missed getting them before Chinese New Year. So unfortunately they are delayed to March (and fingers crossed on this).
> 
> If you purchase a Radiance Pro 5348 you will be put on a list and we will send you a new remote once they arrive.
> 
> For now all other Radiance and Radiance Pro units get the current remote. Once we run out of current remotes, all units will ship with the new remote.
> 
> We will make the new remote available for purchase at some point for any who want to buy one.
> 
> I have attached a rendering of the new remote. I like it better than the current remote and it adds buttons that simplify usage.
> 
> Note: Up until after we put down the order deposit, we were being told the remote we had chosen would have back-lights. Unfortunately the factory then said the remote could not have backlights. We choose to move forward, but I wanted to let you all know there is no backlight.


Definitely getting one for my Radiance Pro 4242 when it becomes avail. The current one, though functional is a little hard to use, especially the range isn't that great. Hopefully the new one will be better in terms of signal range BUT more importantly, it comes with back-lit buttons (I hope I'm right) that has wordings on it to make it easier for user to know which button to press in a dark room.


----------



## OzHDHT

Looking forward to the updated remote codes to be published to Logitech's Harmony database. Will cool to have the extra commands on my Ultimate.


----------



## blake

desray2k said:


> Definitely getting one for my Radiance Pro 4242 when it becomes avail. The current one, though functional is a little hard to use, especially the range isn't that great. Hopefully the new one will be better in terms of signal range BUT more importantly, it comes with back-lit buttons (I hope I'm right) that has wordings on it to make it easier for user to know which button to press in a dark room.


Will the new remotes eventually come with back light ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrp

187crew003 said:


> Is there a way to tel if the unit is using the non-microwave capacitors?


If an IO card has the microwave capacitors, it should have a Rev 1.3, or a Rev 1.4, sticker. The current 18 GHz output card is Rev 1.4, the current 9 GHz output card is Rev 1.3, and the current 18 GHz input card is Rev 1.3. These all have the Microwave capacitor upgrade.

[EDIT: For clarification, the 18 GHz output Rev 1.3 also has microwave capacitors, just not as many as 18 GHz output Rev 1.4.]

We never did a 9 GHz input card upgrade. Did not seem needed IMO.

This is not perfect. Microwave cards have escaped without us managing to put the stickers on. If you have a unit shipped in 2020 or 2021 it has the microwave cards. Before that you would need to depend on the stickers, which means popping the top to see.

[EDIT: For clarification, if you have a unit shipped "new" in 2020 or 2021 it has the microwave cards. We still ship "B-Stock" units with non-microwave cards that have been sent back to us.]


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## jrp

blake said:


> Will the new remotes eventually come with back light ?


I am told there is no way for the remote I choose to have a backlight. So, unless I find a different remote we will not have a backlight. We have to buy a lot of remotes (for us) and so this order will literally last us years. I am not planning to throw away any remotes.

The company I am using has a lot of remotes to choose from, but like Endgame, only one is a winner for us. The others have keys we have no need of, or the wrong number of keys, or do not have any rows with four keys, or etc.

I really like the look of the new remote. Just wish it had a backlight.


----------



## Mark_H

187crew003 said:


> having a discsussion with a friend. what is the expected lifespan of a radiance pro? is there a failure rate after a certain point? is it luck of the draw (like with all electronics?)


Anecdotal, of course, but I've owned three Pro models, one of which recently failed (FPGA failure it seems). I've had previous models die too. So, yes, they can die, but doesn't feel like it's related to any particular timescale.


----------



## giomania

OzHDHT said:


> Looking forward to the updated remote codes to be published to Logitech's Harmony database. Will cool to have the extra commands on my Ultimate.


It would be nice if the hex codes could be published for the new remote codes as well. The existing tech tip does not have actual hex codes, but perhaps there is a way to convert them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SoulOfUniverse

giomania said:


> It would be nice if the hex codes could be published as well.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro





http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0003_RemoteCodes.pdf


----------



## bobof

SoulOfUniverse said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0003_RemoteCodes.pdf


You don't know which code standard they follow by any chance? If it's a well-known one it's probably possible for me to generate them and learn them into my Harmony using some IR gear I have (not got round to looking at it yet, should probably just dig out the original remote and give it a poke).
(The IR-binary and IR-hex aren't that much use without knowing what the IR format is).


----------



## jrp

Something was posted in the comparison thread that is incorrect enough I feel the need to comment. But since I chose not post to the comparison thread I thought I would post the correct information here. This is covered to some degree in my Radiance Pro 5348 white paper, but here are some additional details:

All Radiance Pro units decode the HDMI audio to an I2S audio stream. Then the Radiance Pro creates a new HDMI audio stream using a very low jitter clock. This is different than what an audio processor does. Audio processors decode the audio to an I2S stream and then use PLL’s to try to reduce jitter. The jitter at the DACs in the audio processor is corelated to the amount of jitter in the source HDMI stream. A source with higher jitter leads to higher jitter at the DACs and a source with lower jitter leads to lower jitter at the DACs. 

I cannot stress enough that the Radiance Pro output jitter is not correlated to the jitter in the source HDMI stream, which makes the Radiance Pro dejitter function fundamentally different than that used in audio processors. This levels the playing field for source audio. A source with higher output jitter can sound as good as one with a lower output jitter, since the jitter on the output of the Radiance Pro does not depend on the amount of source jitter.

The goal of the design enhancements made to the Radiance Pro 4XXX models (including microwave capacitors in key locations) is to provide the lowest jitter possible to the input of the audio processor leading to the lowest jitter at the DACs. The goal of the Radiance Pro 5348 design enhancements is to take jitter reduction even further.

The jitter coming out of 4XXX units is significantly lower than what comes in. In fact the jitter coming out of the Radiance Pro 4XXX is not corelated to the jitter on the HDMI audio coming into the 4XXX unit since it is only dependent on the low-jitter clock used to create the HDMI audio from the I2S audio stream. The Radiance Pro 4XXX Rev 1.4 18 GHz output has a data jitter that has been measured at 80 pS. Note: The clock jitter is the more important jitter measurement, but unfortunately we do not have this for the 4XXX models.

The Radiance Pro 5348 uses an even lower clock jitter source to create an HDMI audio stream with extremely low jitter, and then it runs the HDMI audio stream through PLL dejitter circuits for an even lower output jitter. In addition the use of only linear power supplies for the HDMI output circuitry significantly reduces the noise on the output HDMI chips power rails and so impacts jitter less than the digital supplies used in the 4XXX series.

The data jitter on the Radiance Pro 5348 output has been measured at 45 pS, which is about half that of the 4XXX models, and about one-tenth what we see from some source devices. Again the output data jitter is not corelated to the source’s data jitter. More importantly the clock jitter on the Radiance Pro 5348 output has been measured at about 10 pS, and is also not correlated to the source clock jitter. This is an amazingly low amount of clock jitter, and gives the audio processor a pristine clock to then run through its dejitter circuitry.

This is why audio through the Radiance Pro 4XXX units sounds better than the source direct to the audio processor, and why audio through the Radiance Pro 5348 sounds even better than audio through the Radiance Pro 4XXX models.


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## EVH78

@ jrp:
My radiance pro is from 2016, can I upgrade any of the IO boards regarding microwave capacitors and what would my benefit be? Do you offer a trade-in program for older boards?


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## MDesigns

jrp said:


> *All Radiance Pro units decode the HDMI audio to an I2S audio stream. Then the Radiance Pro creates a new HDMI audio stream using a very low jitter clock. This is different than what an audio processor does*. Audio processors decode the audio to an I2S stream and then use PLL’s to try to reduce jitter. The jitter at the DACs in the audio processor is corelated to the amount of jitter in the source HDMI stream. A source with higher jitter leads to higher jitter at the DACs and a source with lower jitter leads to lower jitter at the DACs.


Do you mean it is different because the audio processor doesn't have to create a new HDMI audio stream? I can understand that Lumagen can do "de-jittering" better than audio processors, but are you saying that this is not possible at all to do as good inside an audio processor? IMO it should be even easier for the audio processor since it doesn't have to create a new HDMI stream, it can just use the I2S audio stream. Am I totally incorrect? More technical details appreciated


----------



## giomania

SoulOfUniverse said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0003_RemoteCodes.pdf


I should have clarified I was referring to the new remote control codes, since I want to use the new dedicated buttons with my 4446.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SoulOfUniverse

giomania said:


> I should have clarified I was referring to the new remote control codes, since I want to use the new dedicated buttons with my 4446.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Email Jim, they should have up to date the latest codes for Pro Versions

Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


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## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> The new SiI9777 changes are to support HDCP 2.3. We have not been told of any functional change for video for these new chips. The video and audio improvement for the 5348 is due to lower jitter and lower electrical noise. In fact the first 5348 units being reported on now have the older 18 GHz chip revision (at least most all do).
> 
> The 18 GHz chip revision initially did make my heart skip a beat when they did not pass HDCP 2.2. Surprise!


A bit concerned about this HDCP 2.3. How will this affect us going forward as far as having compatible equipment and sources?


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## Surge2018

It would be interesting to compare jitter and A/V quality on a 4XXX model with an upgraded power supply to the 5XXX with the standard power supply. 
No doubt the 5XXX with an upgraded supply will be the best, but I bet a 4XXX with an upgraded PSU will come really close.
Jitter is affected by incoming AC. This comes from PS Audio's "digital guru" Ted Smith:



> Jitter is caused by not knowing exactly when a signal goes high or low. That decision is often based on comparing voltages like when did it cross the middle voltage between the power supply and ground. If the ground or power is fluctuating then this decision comes a little early or late, i.e. jitter. So insofar as a regenerator helps in cleaning up the power supply or ground noise, it can affect jitter.
> [Edit: I should have also said that the noise on the power or ground is more likely to directly affect any analog circuitry.]


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## SoulOfUniverse

bobof said:


> You don't know which code standard they follow by any chance? If it's a well-known one it's probably possible for me to generate them and learn them into my Harmony using some IR gear I have (not got round to looking at it yet, should probably just dig out the original remote and give it a poke).
> (The IR-binary and IR-hex aren't that much use without knowing what the IR format is).


HI Bobof, not sure really, I educated My Harmony with existed Lumagen Remote for any controls if I couldn't find in My Harmony, but so far it has everything I need


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## Kris Deering

Hey Everyone. I see the chatter on the new remote and just getting Harmony servers up to date. I worked with one of the head guys when doing my recent review of the 2400 remote and I have an inquiry into him about updating the Lumagen information they have so that you can find the Lumagen Radiance Pro instead of all the old models and to get the new remote functionality implemented. I will keep you guys posted. I know they updated the Kaleidescape and Stewart masking remote configurations based on my feedback before, so hoping this will be updated as well.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. I see the chatter on the new remote and just getting Harmony servers up to date. I worked with one of the head guys when doing my recent review of the 2400 remote and I have an inquiry into him about updating the Lumagen information they have so that you can find the Lumagen Radiance Pro instead of all the old models and to get the new remote functionality implemented. I will keep you guys posted. I know they updated the Kaleidescape and Stewart masking remote configurations based on my feedback before, so hoping this will be updated as well.


This would be great Kris, I believe there are many of us who uses Remote Logitech Harmony Hub controls including myself. I have some ideas and feedback about improvement of some functionality can I pass to them via yourself Kris?


----------



## Kris Deering

SoulOfUniverse said:


> This would be great Kris, I believe there are many of us who uses Remote Logitech Harmony Hub controls including myself. I have some ideas and feedback about improvement of some functionality can I pass to them via yourself Kris?


Please do!


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> @ jrp:
> My radiance pro is from 2016, can I upgrade any of the IO boards regarding microwave capacitors and what would my benefit be? Do you offer a trade-in program for older boards?


You can upgrade your I/O cards to the newer microwave capacitor versions. These reduce jitter when used for the output from the Radiance Pro. A microwave capacitor version of the 18 GHz input card is also available. This new revision reduces the percentage of the overall HDMI margin the Radiance Pro input uses. The input card you have already use a smaller percentage of this margin than the Pro input's share, but the microwave capacitors reduce this further. If you are not having dropout issues, then it is unlikely upgrading the 18 GHz input cards to the microwave version will be noticeable. The reduced output jitter from upgrading to the microwave output card (either the 9 GHz or the 18 GHz) _may_ be noticeable for audio improvement. This depends on your equipment.

Note however, that the current single board Radiance Pro 444X revision has additional improvement to reduce jitter and electrical noise. Given the age of your unit you may be interested in considering an upgrade to the latest Radiance Pro 444X revision, or even the new Radiance Pro 5348. Please contact lumagen.com sales for information on I/O card upgrade or unit upgrades.


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## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> A bit concerned about this HDCP 2.3. How will this affect us going forward as far as having compatible equipment and sources?


Integrating HDCP 2.3 into the new SiI9777 chips from the vendor will not impact functionality for sources that use HDCP 2.2 or HDCP 1.X (everything at this point). This is no different than HDCP 1.X sources not being impacted when HDCP 2.2 was introduced, since HDCP revisions are backward compatible.


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## jrp

MDesigns said:


> Do you mean it is different because the audio processor doesn't have to create a new HDMI audio stream? I can understand that Lumagen can do "de-jittering" better than audio processors, but are you saying that this is not possible at all to do as good inside an audio processor? IMO it should be even easier for the audio processor since it doesn't have to create a new HDMI stream, it can just use the I2S audio stream. Am I totally incorrect? More technical details appreciated


Since the Pro needs to create the HDMI audio stream from the I2S audio data, this gives the Pro the chance to have the lowest possible output jitter, versus an audio processor's dejitter circuit. So, having to do this extra step actually gives the Radiance Pro the opportunity to reduce output jitter. And we did.

For an audio processor once the audio is converted to I2S, there is not a mechanism to reduce the jitter other than using PLLs. PLLs are effective at reducing jitter but this depends on their loop-gain, and other design characteristics. These parameters need to be balanced between capture range and jitter reduction. A given audio format clock is tightly controlled frequency but the dejitter circuit needs to work with all audio formats supported, and so must support a larger capture range, which then limits the jitter reduction, at least to a degree.

This is not an issue for the Radiance Pro. It generates the lowest jitter master clock for the HDMI audio output possible, and then the I2S is analyzed by the HDMI encoding chip and the optimal "video-clock/audio-clock" digital ratio is calculated. There is no "PLL loop filter capture range" issue in this case.

In conclusion: I cannot say it is impossible that a dejitter circuit in an audio processor could do as well as the Pro. However, based on numerous test results, including my own, they do not. This does not even touch on the fact that you want the lowest electrical noise coming out of the HDMI cable going into the audio processor to prevent the noise from the cable reducing audio quality, and the Radiance Pro has a very low electrical noise for an HDMI interface.


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## MDesigns

jrp said:


> Since the Pro needs to create the HDMI audio stream from the I2S audio data, this gives the Pro the chance to have the lowest possible output jitter, versus an audio processor's dejitter circuit. So, having to do this extra step actually gives the Radiance Pro the opportunity to reduce output jitter. And we did.
> 
> For an audio processor once the audio is converted to I2S, there is not a mechanism to reduce the jitter other than using PLLs. PLLs are effective at reducing jitter but this depends on their loop-gain, and other design characteristics. These parameters need to be balanced between capture range and jitter reduction. A given audio format clock is tightly controlled frequency but the dejitter circuit needs to work with all audio formats supported, and so must support a larger capture range, which then limits the jitter reduction, at least to a degree.
> 
> This is not an issue for the Radiance Pro. It generates the lowest jitter master clock for the HDMI audio output possible, and then the I2S is analyzed by the HDMI encoding chip and the optimal "video-clock/audio-clock" digital ratio is calculated. There is no "PLL loop filter capture range" issue in this case.
> 
> In conclusion: I cannot say it is impossible that a dejitter circuit in an audio processor could do as well as the Pro. However, based on numerous test results, including my own, they do not. This does not even touch on the fact that you want the lowest electrical noise coming out of the HDMI cable going into the audio processor to prevent the noise from the cable reducing audio quality, and the Radiance Pro has a very low electrical noise for an HDMI interface.


Thank you Jim! I have to say I still don't fully get it why they don't use a more similar technique, but this is far out of my my expertise and I trust your expertise!


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## aguy

Well I’ve just ordered my tributaries uhdv 15m for the run from my lumagen to projector. Hoping it stops the hdmi handshake issues that I’ve been having. 

A somewhat expensive test...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## desray2k

jrp said:


> I am told there is no way for the remote I choose to have a backlight. So, unless I find a different remote we will not have a backlight. We have to buy a lot of remotes (for us) and so this order will literally last us years. I am not planning to throw away any remotes.
> 
> The company I am using has a lot of remotes to choose from, but like Endgame, only one is a winner for us. The others have keys we have no need of, or the wrong number of keys, or do not have any rows with four keys, or etc.
> 
> I really like the look of the new remote. Just wish it had a backlight.


Wasted opportunity...thought the "new" remote has backlight


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## WCEaglesMan

desray2k said:


> Wasted opportunity...thought the "new" remote has backlight


No one ever said it would. Jim clearly explained earlier that this was most unlikely.


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## SoulOfUniverse

desray2k said:


> Wasted opportunity...thought the "new" remote has backlight


I don't know anyone who uses all remotes individually ) for instance I have about 10 remotes from all the equipment, and everyone will use universal remote I use Harmony Hub and very happy with everything, worth every buck in that case all my individual remotes are hidden away in the box ) I might use it only when I perform calibration )) 

Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


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## OMARDRIS

Hi Jim,
there was once a plan in 2017 to expand the 1-D LUT in Radiance Pro from 21 to 257 points. Has this plan been dropped?
Peter


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## EVH78

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I don't know anyone who uses all remotes individually ) for instance I have about 10 remotes from all the equipment, and everyone will use universal remote I use Harmony Hub and very happy with everything, worth every buck in that case all my individual remotes are hidden away in the box ) I might use it only when I perform calibration ))
> 
> Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


The Lumagen remote has so many more buttons than what the Harmony offers. And the display in the Harmony Elite is too much pain to dial in. So I am always using the Lumagen remote and will stick with the "old" model since I definitely need backlight. The Harmony is really only there to power on everything, press play/pause, control the lights and set the volume. So basically I am stuck with the three remotes for my Pj, the Lumagen and the Harmony.


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## bobof

EVH78 said:


> The Lumagen remote has so many more buttons than what the Harmony offers. And the display in the Harmony Elite is too much pain to dial in. So I am always using the Lumagen remote and will stick with the "old" model since I definitely need backlight. The Harmony is really only there to power on everything, press play/pause, control the lights and set the volume. So basically I am stuck with the three remotes for my Pj, the Lumagen and the Harmony.


To me, that just sounds like half a system setup. I really don't get needing more than a Harmony in day-to-day use. 

But I spend a lot of time on the integration and setup and making sure the family can use the room and get 100% experience with no actual know-how of how any of it works.

Edit: I realise after writing this might have come across a bit "knobby", I didn't mean it as dissing your setup, but I genuinely feel that the Harmony should do everything for you well in all but the the most extreme situations..


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## EVH78

bobof said:


> Edit: I realise after writing this might have come across a bit "knobby", I didn't mean it as dissing your setup, but I genuinely feel that the Harmony should do everything for you well in all but the the most extreme situations..


No worries. 
The family can turn everything on by using the Harmony. But I am constantly optimizing settings, using different aspects, resyncing hdmi handshakes and so on. That is too much pain with the Harmony. The Lumagen remote is always there AND needed


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## bobof

EVH78 said:


> No worries.
> The family can turn everything on by using the Harmony. But I am constantly optimizing settings, using different aspects, resyncing hdmi handshakes and so on. That is too much pain with the Harmony. The Lumagen remote is always there AND needed


It's interesting to see the other point of view and how polarised these things are. I do those things sometimes with the Harmony remote and it's not the quickest, but it annoys me less than having to have the Lumagen remote and others out in the room, as it is always in my hand. The Lumagen remote never has batteries in it (it's in a drawer "just in case") but I was over the moon about the new remote just for the addition of the new codes which are nice as they make the Harmony more useable.


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## bearcat2002

Isn’t it amazing how we all are always trying to optimize our setup? I love setting everything up and configuring just like everyone else. I also find it interesting how our parents know nothing about how to do any of this stuff nor do any of our kids…because we do it all for them. We are definitely an interesting generation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOberhardt

bobof said:


> To me, that just sounds like half a system setup. I really don't get needing more than a Harmony in day-to-day use.
> 
> But I spend a lot of time on the integration and setup and making sure the family can use the room and get 100% experience with no actual know-how of how any of it works.
> 
> Edit: I realise after writing this might have come across a bit "knobby", I didn't mean it as dissing your setup, but I genuinely feel that the Harmony should do everything for you well in all but the the most extreme situations..


Yeah the Harmony is a bit of work to setup, but once you figure out how to reprogram activity buttons, so you can by touch access everything you would do during a viewing session, you can do most everything in the dark. The only Lumagen functions I use are Mem a and b though. If I was going to fiddle about with the Lumagen, I'd used the Lumagen remote.


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## WCEaglesMan

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah the Harmony is a bit of work to setup, but once you figure out how to reprogram activity buttons, so you can by touch access everything you would do during a viewing session, you can do most everything in the dark. The only Lumagen functions I use are Mem a and b though. If I was going to fiddle about with the Lumagen, I'd used the Lumagen remote.


Agreed ... you use the Lumagen remote when you really need to ... so not having it backlit is not a deal breaker. However, it IS important for the Harmony remote to be backlit as I use it 98% of the time (maybe less for some).


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## riddle

These are photos from my friend home theater with Lumagen Radiance PRO a JVC N7. I've never seen a happier look on his face after addition Lumagen Radian PRO.


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## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> These are photos from my friend home theater with Lumagen Radiance PRO a JVC N7. I've never seen a happier look on his face after addition Lumagen Radian PRO.
> View attachment 3090218
> View attachment 3090217
> View attachment 3090216


Ahhhhhhh! So much white!!!! LOL


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

jrp said:


> Integrating HDCP 2.3 into the new SiI9777 chips from the vendor will not impact functionality for sources that use HDCP 2.2 or HDCP 1.X (everything at this point). This is no different than HDCP 1.X sources not being impacted when HDCP 2.2 was introduced, since HDCP revisions are backward compatible.





jrp said:


> Since the Pro needs to create the HDMI audio stream from the I2S audio data, this gives the Pro the chance to have the lowest possible output jitter, versus an audio processor's dejitter circuit. So, having to do this extra step actually gives the Radiance Pro the opportunity to reduce output jitter. And we did.
> 
> For an audio processor once the audio is converted to I2S, there is not a mechanism to reduce the jitter other than using PLLs. PLLs are effective at reducing jitter but this depends on their loop-gain, and other design characteristics. These parameters need to be balanced between capture range and jitter reduction. A given audio format clock is tightly controlled frequency but the dejitter circuit needs to work with all audio formats supported, and so must support a larger capture range, which then limits the jitter reduction, at least to a degree.
> 
> This is not an issue for the Radiance Pro. It generates the lowest jitter master clock for the HDMI audio output possible, and then the I2S is analyzed by the HDMI encoding chip and the optimal "video-clock/audio-clock" digital ratio is calculated. There is no "PLL loop filter capture range" issue in this case.
> 
> In conclusion: I cannot say it is impossible that a dejitter circuit in an audio processor could do as well as the Pro. However, based on numerous test results, including my own, they do not. This does not even touch on the fact that you want the lowest electrical noise coming out of the HDMI cable going into the audio processor to prevent the noise from the cable reducing audio quality, and the Radiance Pro has a very low electrical noise for an HDMI interface.


Quite interested in upgrading from my 2017 Radiance Pro to the newest least jittery version 5348. Though while my theater is still being renovated makes sense to wait until I'm closer to completion - plus I am wondering if any further changes/upgrades may be made to the 5348 model in the next few months?

I am a sincere believer in jitter affecting audio quality based on my own experience in my home theater over the years. Many years ago I had 2 Audio Alchemy Camelot jitter reducers, chained, which I used for DVD when it first came out. The first Sony DVD player, I think DV-700, sounded very poor and this jitter reduction helped it remarkably - circa 1997-1998! Vibration appears to affect jitter and sonics - thus I have used Symposium Ultra platform and Rollerblocks under SSPs and heard the sonic improvement. Though with my current theater upgrade and renovation I am "hiding" all components away in a cabinet/closet area in the back of the theater, in a Mid-Atlantic rack, and likely will be abandoning this stuff to the extent these tweaks simply aren't practical in a rack mounted cabinet.

The best and most recent example I have re jitter affecting sound quality from my own experience was when my Theta Compli DVD player crapped out permanently (high end DVD player with its own proprietary jitter reduction that sounded great, much better using HDMI than my prior Oppo 83 or 93 had sounded), I replaced it with an Oppo 205 4k blu ray player, but I was disappointed with the sonics of the new 205 until I placed a Symposium Ultra platform with a stacked one on top of the other set of Symposium Rollerblocks underneath.

Also, before I changed to the ROON Ready ethernet Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP, I had the Theta Casablanca IV-A SSP with its own "jitter jail" jitter reduction. For music using JRiver and then ROON, I had a ROON Ready via ethernet Sonore Signature Rendu SE, USB out into Berkely Audio USB Converter, AES/EBU digital into Theta Casablanca IV-A SSP for STEREO and sounded great! However, for multi-channel music, I had to use a custom PC I had built by Small Green Computer using its AMD Sapphire HDMI out to Theta Casablanca IV-A SSP. Although multi-channel music sounded nice via HDMI, it simply wasn't the more pure fidelity of my 2 channel music.

With my Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP, for music using ROON music software, as Trinnov SSPs are ROON Ready ethernet, straight music will be via ethernet and ROON without use of HDMI, so the 5348 will be of no benefit in this regard for me.

With my Apple TV 4k (and any apps therein, including HDHomerun for local OTA channels), the 5348 may be of some benefit, alhough how much is hard to say until I use it.

My Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k blu ray player is designed to have less jitter than other players but still may have some sonic benefit from the 5348 HDMI jitter reduction. And I do have a lot of blu ray concert discs not in my Kaleidescape system so I can get whatever this sonic benefit is out of this.

My primary movie and some video concert source will be my Kaleidescape Strato C 4k blu ray player (and Alto blu ray player). *Which begs the question to Jim Petersen and others - Jim, have you measured the jitter from your Kaleidescape player vs using the 5348? And folks with Kaleidescape and the 5348, how are the sonics using the 5348 vs using the Kaleidescape audio only HDMI output into the SSP directly?*


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> Ahhhhhhh! So much white!!!! LOL


I must admit, I did think exactly the same. Literally the complete opposite to most rooms, although I suppose you could have a room full of mirrors instead?!? 🤣


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> Ahhhhhhh! So much white!!!! LOL


My sentiments exactly!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FenceMan

Now we need isolation platforms for our digital players because vibration affects the way the 1's and 0's are sent? My mind is literally blown.


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## Steve Bruzonsky

FenceMan said:


> Now we need isolation platforms for our digital players because vibration affects the way the 1's and 0's are sent? My mind is literally blown.


That's why you are always on the "fence" Mr Fenceman.


----------



## riddle

Yes, its realy white rooms. I would handle it a little differently but thats was his choice.


----------



## woofer

FenceMan said:


> Now we need isolation platforms for our digital players because vibration affects the way the 1's and 0's are sent? My mind is literally blown.


You might want to talk to an Electrical Engineer and discuss what effect micro vibrations can have on 'capacitors" !!


----------



## FenceMan

woofer said:


> You might want to talk to an Electrical Engineer and discuss what effect micro vibrations can have on 'capacitors" !!


Hey if you guys say you can see and hear micro vibrations coming through the HDMI cable I believe you.


----------



## woofer

FenceMan said:


> Hey if you guys say you can see and hear micro vibrations coming through the HDMI cable I believe you.


Micro vibrations can effect "capacitance" No need to be a Smartass


----------



## FenceMan

woofer said:


> Micro vibrations can effect "capacitance" No need to be a Smartass


I don't mean to be a smart ass but come on. Designing a processor for lower jitter is one thing, claiming it also needs an isolation platform is a whole different thing. If these things needed isolation why dont manufacturers make any attempt at it? If the idea of the new Lumagen was to lower jitter why not add isolation from the factory?


----------



## woofer

FenceMan said:


> I don't mean to be a smart ass but come on. Designing a processor for lower jitter is one thing, claiming it also needs an isolation platform is a whole different thing. If these things needed isolation why dont manufacturers make any attempt at it? If the idea of the new Lumagen was to lower jitter why not add isolation from the factory?



I wasn't referencing the Lumagen.... 

YOU said....'Now we need isolation platforms for our "*digital players* " ...

Transports ......CD/DVD/BLURAY/UHD can be effected by vibration...it CAN translate to an effect on audio..

Have YOU ever tried any form of isolation product such as "Stillpoints" under a Digital transport?

I friend of mine is an Electrical Engineer / Physicist ....he actually builds his own Capacitors for his audio projects......he explained how "vibration" CAN influence/change the capacitance and the possible effects.


----------



## FenceMan

woofer said:


> I wasn't referencing the Lumagen....
> 
> YOU said....'Now we need isolation platforms for our "*digital players* " ...
> 
> Transports ......CD/DVD/BLURAY/UHD can be effected by vibration...it CAN translate to an effect on audio..
> 
> Have YOU ever tried any form of isolation product such as "Stillpoints" under a Digital transport?
> 
> I friend of mine is an Electrical Engineer / Physicist ....he actually builds his own Capacitors for his audio projects......he explained how "vibration" CAN influence/change the capacitance and the possible effects.


So I say again (no smart ass), if you say you can see / hear the difference I believe you can.


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> Ahhhhhhh! So much white!!!! LOL


Oh yeah, calibrators must love that.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

FenceMan said:


> So I say again (no smart ass), if you say you can see / hear the difference I believe you can.


Frankly I could care less whether you believe me or think I'm crazy. What counts for me is satisfaction in how I perceive audio and video performance in my own audio and/or video systems. But in my theater as I'm cleaning up its look, adding channels/speakers, in a major renovation and upgrade, odds are I will not include the Symposium isolation platforms, etc not because they haven't worked for me, but because it will be easier to rack mount everything - so the new Radiance Pro 5348 with its objective jitter reduction may be a worthwhile solution to improve some aspects of my audio without the need for audiophile tweaks that I've used in the past.


----------



## riddle

EVH78 said:


> Oh yeah, calibrators must love that.


it's not so that bad


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

riddle said:


> it's not so that bad


It won't be affecting the calibration, I mean color errors but it will affect your contrast a lot. 

Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

My radiance pro is set to output all video in 4096 x2160 resolution, and my projector is configured to use one picture mode for everything. Why do changes in source resolution force an hdmi resync on my JVC rs4500, for example moving from Apple TV 4K menus to movie content.

Shouldn’t the projector see the same output/resolution parameters from the Lumagen and keep the hdmi sync locked ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## steve1225

blake said:


> My radiance pro is set to output all video in 4096 x2160 resolution, and my projector is configured to use one picture mode for everything. Why do changes in source resolution force an hdmi resync on my JVC rs4500, for example moving from Apple TV 4K menus to movie content.
> 
> Shouldn’t the projector see the same output/resolution parameters from the Lumagen and keep the hdmi sync locked ?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


AppleTV didn't change resolution (it keeps 4K even for FullHD or SD content).
AppleTV change SDR/HDR video signal and 24p/25p/30p/60p frame rate depending what type content You are watching...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

blake said:


> My radiance pro is set to output all video in 4096 x2160 resolution, and my projector is configured to use one picture mode for everything. Why do changes in source resolution force an hdmi resync on my JVC rs4500, for example moving from Apple TV 4K menus to movie content.
> 
> Shouldn’t the projector see the same output/resolution parameters from the Lumagen and keep the hdmi sync locked ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For this to happen you need to set the Lumagen up so it always outputs the same resolution, frame rate, dynamic range and colour format regardless of incoming signal type. Also you want rate match off. Do that and you shoudl find the projector will not re-sync.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Mark Burton said:


> I must admit, I did think exactly the same. Literally the complete opposite to most rooms, although I suppose you could have a room full of mirrors instead?!? 🤣


If the guy likes it he likes it.....As you know i see more dedicated cinema rooms than most....the two worst were a conservatory with three glass walls and a white ceiling with polished ash floors and the top one...a white marble swimming pool room with a large mirrored wall opposite the screen and two sunken pools between the viewer and the screen and the pools had the water permanently lit up....The client was happy though, so i guess that's what counts.


----------



## riddle

SoulOfUniverse said:


> It won't be affecting the calibration, I mean color errors but it will affect your contrast a lot.
> 
> Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


yes thats you have right...contrast was lot of lower...


----------



## blake

Gordon Fraser said:


> For this to happen you need to set the Lumagen up so it always outputs the same resolution, frame rate, dynamic range and colour format regardless of incoming signal type. Also you want rate match off. Do that and you shoudl find the projector will not re-sync.


So setting the Lumagen to output 4096 resolution and 24p constantly is a safe bet for most content and will have little impact. 

If you use Lumagen DTM, then the projector will see “SDR2020” for all content anyways, will it not? 

So, in the above scenario , what is left for ATV 4k to trigger an hdmi resync ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PeterLarsson

blake said:


> So setting the Lumagen to output 4096 resolution and 24p constantly is a safe bet for most content and will have little impact.
> 
> If you use Lumagen DTM, then the projector will see “SDR2020” for all content anyways, will it not?
> 
> So, in the above scenario , what is left for ATV 4k to trigger an hdmi resync ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Make sure that your turn of rate match in ATV, otherwise you will be left with for example 4k SDR for menus and stuff but a resync will happen if you start a HDR moove, just put ATV in 4K HDR.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

blake said:


> So setting the Lumagen to output 4096 resolution and 24p constantly is a safe bet for most content and will have little impact.
> 
> If you use Lumagen DTM, then the projector will see “SDR2020” for all content anyways, will it not?
> 
> So, in the above scenario , what is left for ATV 4k to trigger an hdmi resync ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you email me your config file to gordon at lumagen dot expert i can create a memory for you to try to see how it goes. If you watch any 60Hz material you don't want to choose 24Hz as output mode...the most sensible option is to set everything to come out at 60Hz.


----------



## Karl Maga

riddle said:


> These are photos from my friend home theater with Lumagen Radiance PRO a JVC N7. I've never seen a happier look on his face after addition Lumagen Radian PRO.
> View attachment 3090218
> View attachment 3090217
> View attachment 3090216


I think it is a great looking room. As you said, not optimal for theater because of light control, but it is a VERY stylish room.


----------



## Mark Burton

Karl Maga said:


> I think it is a great looking room. As you said, not optimal for theater because of light control, but it is a VERY stylish room.


Agreed, it looks great as a room that’s for sure.


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> So setting the Lumagen to output 4096 resolution and 24p constantly is a safe bet for most content and will have little impact.
> 
> If you use Lumagen DTM, then the projector will see “SDR2020” for all content anyways, will it not?
> 
> So, in the above scenario , what is left for ATV 4k to trigger an hdmi resync ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


it is resynching because it sees a change in frame rate. So you’d have to force a frame rate from the appletv or the radiance to completely eliminate the resynch.


----------



## 187crew003

im going from a 4442 (2ru) to a brand new 4242 (1ru)

on the 4442 I used input 3 and 4 (both 18) and output 1 and 3

is it safe to assume I will be using the same inputs on the new unit (and the 2 available outputs 1 straight to the AP and one to the PJ) and load my current configuration via USB? i shouldn't need to change any settings correct>

thanks in advance!


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> im going from a 4442 (2ru) to a brand new 4242 (1ru)
> 
> on the 4442 I used input 3 and 4 (both 18) and output 1 and 3
> 
> is it safe to assume I will be using the same inputs on the new unit (and the 2 available outputs 1 straight to the AP and one to the PJ) and load my current configuration via USB? i shouldn't need to change any settings correct>
> 
> thanks in advance!


Correct


----------



## thrang

I’ve been evaluating the new 5348 Radiance for a week now and wanted to post a few thoughts that might be helpful to others (my overall setup in my sig so will not repeat here)

As other have posted earlier, Jim likely undersold the performance of this new version of the Radiance - and given the hyperbolic nature of the proselytizing around some other products recently, I find this both wise and refreshing.

Content through the 5348 is providing better video and audio performance. It’s not a _magnitudal_ (sic) improvement, but instead a clear refinement. For video, there is reduction of noisiness, most apparent in compressed live viewing (FuboTV); a calmer image I suppose. For 4k content from the Kaleidescape system, the improvement is more manifested in a bit sharper, and again, calmer image.

Audio, for me, presents the larger improvement - everything seems more tack-sharp. Subtle effects and soundtrack elements that I never really noticed before are more apparent. More room for things to breathe it seems.

I am also having repeatable success now with handshakes to my Sony 5000 projector, an issue I could never completely resolve with the 4xxx series without a HDMI fixer device in-between the two. There are menu commands for adjusting the output parameters (voltage) and output EQ, which Jim walked me through and appears to have helped.

Overall, I understand the redesign of the unit was to lower noise and reduce jitter as much as possible. To that end, it seems to align with the improvements I’m seeing.

It's also important to note that that are no differences between the 5xxx and 4xxx regarding color, greyscale, dynamic tone mapping, etc. The changes were for refinement and reduction of noise and jitter, and how that impacts sound and vision. 

So then, is it worth it?

I’ve come to the mindset that that kind of question is often hard to answer when netting out evolutionary benefits given all the considerations:


cost
perception of value
system capability
financial capacity
importance of maximum system performance

All these things juggle together with different weighting for different people. So the worth question is somewhat worthless...

For me, with my setup, I’m quite pleased to keep it in my rig. Very nice job by Jim...


----------



## Des511

Edited


----------



## LJG

thrang said:


> I’ve been evaluating the new 5348 Radiance for a week now and wanted to post a few thoughts that might be helpful to others (my overall setup in my sig so will not repeat here)
> 
> As other have posted earlier, Jim likely undersold the performance of this new version of the Radiance - and given the hyperbolic nature of the proselytizing around some other products recently, I find this both wise and refreshing.
> 
> Content through the 5348 is providing better video and audio performance. It’s not a _magnitudal_ (sic) improvement, but instead a clear refinement. For video, there is reduction of noisiness, most apparent in compressed live viewing (FuboTV); a calmer image I suppose. For 4k content from the Kaleidescape system, the improvement is more manifested in a bit sharper, and again, calmer image.
> 
> Audio, for me, presents the larger improvement - everything seems more tack-sharp. Subtle effects and soundtrack elements that I never really noticed before are more apparent. More room for things to breathe it seems.
> 
> I am also having repeatable success now with handshakes to my Sony 5000 projector, an issue I could never completely resolve with the 4xxx series without a HDMI fixer device in-between the two. There are menu commands for adjusting the output parameters (voltage) and output EQ, which Jim walked me through and appears to have helped.
> 
> Overall, I understand the redesign of the unit was to lower noise and reduce jitter as much as possible. To that end, it seems to align with the improvements I’m seeing.
> 
> It's also important to note that that are no differences between the 5xxx and 4xxx regarding color, greyscale, dynamic tone mapping, etc. The changes were for refinement and reduction of noise and jitter, and how that impacts sound and vision.
> 
> So then, is it worth it?
> 
> I’ve come to the mindset that that kind of question is often hard to answer when netting out evolutionary benefits given all the considerations:
> 
> 
> cost
> perception of value
> system capability
> financial capacity
> importance of maximum system performance
> 
> All these things juggle together with different weighting for different people. So the worth question is somewhat worthless...
> 
> For me, with my setup, I’m quite pleased to keep it in my rig. Very nice job by Jim...


This is a very impressive review for Lumagen as Greg has a very critical eye and ear (I mean this in a complimentary way Greg). This reminds me of the old Life cereal commercial with Mikey.


----------



## aguy

I am about to swap my hdmi cable from my lumagen 4xxx to my Sony projector. Hopefully the tributaries uhdv does the job 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sandyj

thrang said:


> I’ve been evaluating the new 5348 Radiance for a week now and wanted to post a few thoughts that might be helpful to others (my overall setup in my sig so will not repeat here)
> 
> As other have posted earlier, Jim likely undersold the performance of this new version of the Radiance - and given the hyperbolic nature of the proselytizing around some other products recently, I find this both wise and refreshing.
> 
> Content through the 5348 is providing better video and audio performance. It’s not a _magnitudal_ (sic) improvement, but instead a clear refinement. For video, there is reduction of noisiness, most apparent in compressed live viewing (FuboTV); a calmer image I suppose. For 4k content from the Kaleidescape system, the improvement is more manifested in a bit sharper, and again, calmer image.
> 
> Audio, for me, presents the larger improvement - everything seems more tack-sharp. Subtle effects and soundtrack elements that I never really noticed before are more apparent. More room for things to breathe it seems.
> 
> I am also having repeatable success now with handshakes to my Sony 5000 projector, an issue I could never completely resolve with the 4xxx series without a HDMI fixer device in-between the two. There are menu commands for adjusting the output parameters (voltage) and output EQ, which Jim walked me through and appears to have helped.
> 
> Overall, I understand the redesign of the unit was to lower noise and reduce jitter as much as possible. To that end, it seems to align with the improvements I’m seeing.
> 
> It's also important to note that that are no differences between the 5xxx and 4xxx regarding color, greyscale, dynamic tone mapping, etc. The changes were for refinement and reduction of noise and jitter, and how that impacts sound and vision.
> 
> So then, is it worth it?
> 
> I’ve come to the mindset that that kind of question is often hard to answer when netting out evolutionary benefits given all the considerations:
> 
> 
> cost
> perception of value
> system capability
> financial capacity
> importance of maximum system performance
> 
> All these things juggle together with different weighting for different people. So the worth question is somewhat worthless...
> 
> For me, with my setup, I’m quite pleased to keep it in my rig. Very nice job by Jim...


Thrang one of my concerns is handshaking issues with the Lumagen in the path seems to be the curse of projector users what was the HDMI fixer device you are referring to ?


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> it is resynching because it sees a change in frame rate. So you’d have to force a frame rate from the appletv or the radiance to completely eliminate the resynch.


You were right - Apple TV 4K frame rate matching=off no longer causes hdmi resync delays switching between the menus and content. Also it eliminated a horrible lip sync issue with the Prime TV app. 

Do you suggest setting the ATV frame rate to be fixed at 24p or 60p for general ATV content ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

blake said:


> You were right - Apple TV 4K frame rate matching=off no longer causes hdmi resync delays switching between the menus and content. Also it eliminated a horrible lip sync issue with the Prime TV app.
> 
> Do you suggest setting the ATV frame rate to be fixed at 24p or 60p for general ATV content ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honestly, putting up with handshake issues is a small price to pay. 3:2 pull down and any 24 to 60 conversion is a xxxxing abomination. An affront to av enthusiasts. We are still putting up with this xxxx from the analog ntsc pal era. It is pathetic. Broadcast television is an anachronism. It is so dead. But still we are dealing with this rubbish.


----------



## ht guy

I've never had handshaking issues with 4242 and JVC NX7. 
Just a beautiful picture.


----------



## cargen

QUOTE="ht guy, post: 60498368, member: 7537536"]
I've never had handshaking issues with 4242 and JVC NX7.
Just a beautiful picture.
[/QUOTE]
Nor have I had handshaking issues with 4242 and JVC RS3000 a/ka NX9.
Only a stunning picture.


----------



## docrog

Can anyone provide information on the best place to obtain "triple black velvet" material in the USA? Thanks!


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> We will take a look.
> 
> Your feedback that this is only with Reduce max is a clue. It is possible that some VW5000 are less happy with reduce max. Or it is possible there is an issue in the Pro output with Reduce max (although it does not seem like the Pro could generate a green line in the middle. Never know until it gets figured out though). We have seen a green line in the middle with at least one or two other Sony 5000's, but never (to the best of my knowledge) with a different projector.
> 
> *We have had a vertical line on one side or the other that did turn out to be a FPGA issue. That is an "edge case" *while the green line in the middle is a in the middle of everything which is not likely in the Pro architecture, but certainly worth us looking into this.
> 
> You can actually test this with a TV with Reduce Max to see if it happens on a second device (then likely the Pro). However, very few TVs work with Reduce Max since it is a non-standard pixel rate and timing.
> 
> If Reduce Max = Off works, that is the standard "18 GHz" rate. Use this if it works for you.


Hi Jim, my Sony projector VW995ES occasionally will have a "green" line (about 1px) appearing on the extreme right. I'm using the auto aspect feature on my Radiance Pro 4242-C+. I'm on the latest firmware ver *020521. *It can be resolved by turning off/standby the Radiance Pro and turn back on again...this will usually solve the problem. You mentioned it is a FPGA issue. Is this a defect or any resolution to prevent it from ever happening?


----------



## ht guy

docrog said:


> Can anyone provide information on the best place to obtain "triple black velvet" material in the USA? Thanks!


Here.


----------



## thrang

sandyj said:


> Thrang one of my concerns is handshaking issues with the Lumagen in the path seems to be the curse of projector users what was the HDMI fixer device you are referring to ?


There are various 4k splitters or audio extractors that can work… I’ve used this one in the past with pretty good success….









J-Tech Digital 4K60HZ HDMI Audio Extractor/Converter SPDIF/3.5MM


The HDMI 18Gbps Audio Extractor could extract audio signals from any HDMI compliant source to digital optical or analog stereo L/R audio outputs.




jtechdigital.com





Much more expensive, but of you have an HDFury Vertex or Integral, that can help.

They don’t work 100% of the time, but reasonably close…


----------



## docrog

ht guy said:


> Here.


Much appreciated!


----------



## docrog

thrang said:


> but if you have an HDFury Vertex or Integral, that can help. They don’t work 100% of the time, but reasonably close…


I have an Integral that's gathering dust (no longer utilized since purchasing the RP). How would I make use of it in line between the RP & PJ to minimize handshake time when switching sources that vary between Rec709 and BT2020 or different frame rates? Would a single EDID be able to accomplish this?


----------



## llang269

I’m having a very hard time purchasing tributaries hdmi cables 3m length! I tried audiogurus with no luck. Any help would be really appreciated


----------



## GerryWaz

llang269 said:


> I’m having a very hard time purchasing tributaries hdmi cables 3m length! I tried audiogurus with no luck. Any help would be really appreciated


Contact Lumagen ([email protected]). I just got a 2m and a 3m from them. Payment was via PayPal.


----------



## Sittler27

ht guy said:


> Here.


How about in Canada?


----------



## blake

MOberhardt said:


> Honestly, putting up with handshake issues is a small price to pay. 3:2 pull down and any 24 to 60 conversion is a xxxxing abomination. An affront to av enthusiasts. We are still putting up with this xxxx from the analog ntsc pal era. It is pathetic. Broadcast television is an anachronism. It is so dead. But still we are dealing with this rubbish.


Yeah but since atv isn’t broadcast .. isn’t the majority of its streaming content native 24 FPS (so no 3:2 or up conversion needed if you set matched rate=off and display setting 4k/sdr/24 )? 

Hdmi Handshake on JVC rs4500 is like 20 seconds which is a bit of an annoyance when going back and forth previewing trailers etc to decide what to watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aguy

Well somewhat disappointingly I am still getting the sparkles when I change frame rates after I installed my tributaries uhdv between my lumagen and my Sony projector. 

The problem seems to happen when I change from 50p ( watching PAL DVD rips) back to 24p which is my settings for the menu on my Kodi box. I find it a bit strange that it happens when going from 50 to 24p as I would have thought that 24 p should be easier to sync than 50p

The equipment involved are 
lumagen radiance pro 4444
Sony vpl vw550es ( same as vw675es)
Odroid n2 running coreelec
Trinnov altitude 16

Any ideas @jrp ; 

I know others have said they have problems with the Sony projectors too so maybe I’ll have to live with it. BTW alt prev fixes it 90% of the time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

aguy said:


> Well somewhat disappointingly I am still getting the sparkles when I change frame rates after I installed my tributaries uhdv between my lumagen and my Sony projector.
> 
> The problem seems to happen when I change from 50p ( watching PAL DVD rips) back to 24p which is my settings for the menu on my Kodi box. I find it a bit strange that it happens when going from 50 to 24p as I would have thought that 24 p should be easier to sync than 50p
> 
> The equipment involved are
> lumagen radiance pro 4444
> Sony vpl vw550es ( same as vw675es)
> Odroid n2 running coreelec
> Trinnov altitude 16
> 
> Any ideas @jrp ;
> 
> I know others have said they have problems with the Sony projectors too so maybe I’ll have to live with it. BTW alt prev fixes it 90% of the time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just curious. I think that is one of the older Sony models. Have you verified you are using the higher bandwidth input AND have it selected as enhanced in the Sony setup menu? You also may want to run 9G out if that is one of the Sony modes with the weird 13G inputs. I can’t remember if that model had that issue.


----------



## aguy

Kris Deering said:


> Just curious. I think that is one of the older Sony models. Have you verified you are using the higher bandwidth input AND have it selected as enhanced in the Sony setup menu? You also may want to run 9G out if that is one of the Sony modes with the weird 13G inputs. I can’t remember if that model had that issue.


Good thoughts. You’re right. I’ve used both hdmi inputs. I’ve read reports that hdmi 2 is actually more stable so I’ve left it there but the issue seems the same on both ports. Yes the Sony is setup to enhanced hdmi. I have also been running the output out the 9ghz output on the lumagen as video only ( audio disabled). 

I read that the 9ghz should be better as you allude to. I haven’t actually tried to 18ghz output as I am using that to run to a television. 

I am grateful for the suggestions. 

I do actually get it to sync at 24p. Just sometimes takes a reset or two 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkk


----------



## 187crew003

Is there a way to run 9G out of a 18G output?


----------



## aguy

187crew003 said:


> Is there a way to run 9G out of a 18G output?


Pretty sure that you can set the 18ghz output to 9ghz only 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

A comment on using two video outputs from a Radiance Pro to drive both a TV and a projector.

We have seen some TVs and at least one projector go into what I lovingly refer to as Zombie Mode when they are in standby. This sometimes happens as soon as they are put in standby and sometimes it happens over a longer period as if they go to a lower power mode.

What I mean by this is the TV/projector goes into standby and instead of putting their HDMI input completely to sleep the HDMI input goes to half-awake mode. In this mode the TV/project is awake enough that the Pro realizes it is there and tries to connect, but the TV/projector does not respond properly. So then the Pro says "okay, I will keep trying." This happens over and over which keeps the Pro from getting real work done.

This is easy to test. If you have two displays, disconnect one from the Pro and see if any connectivity issues are resolved with the other, or not. Also, remember that you can have this issue and another unrelated issue that makes it hard to figure out both. So my recommendation is if you are having HDMI issues, simplify your system for testing. Start with the Pro and one TV or projector. Get this working and reliable testing on/off/on/off. Then add one source. Then add the audio processor. Then more sources. The the second display.

If you figure out you have issues because you have two video devices, you have to figure out a way to not have the second "standby mode" device be in Zombie mode (you could disconnect wall power with a switch), or isolate it from the HDMI output of the Pro (you can use a 2-to-1 switch and select the second non-connected input so the Pro is not connected to the second display).


----------



## kristenmarie

Just upgraded my Radiance Pro 4446+ to the new 5348. There is magic in this new box!

My living room "theater" is currently running a Kaleidescape Strato S as the source, fed to the new Lumagen 5348, with video out to a 77" LG OLED GX display, and audio out to a Trinnov Altitude 16 followed by Bryston amps and Thiel speakers currently in a 10.1 Auro-3D immersive configuration.

The soundstage is wider, and the audio sounds more natural, less smeared, less harsh, with more clarity. And while the 5348 is billed as an "audiophile upgrade", there are distinct improvements to the video chain as well - the result being the removal of that last little bit of noise, picture is now crystal clear with more detail and a far more realistic image. For me, the 5348 breathes new life into older movies; I couldn't be happier!

I bought a Keces P8 linear power supply to see if it made a difference with my 4446+ (latest model), and it did decrease the video noise somewhat, but there is a lot of additional improvement once moving to the 5348. It's definitely a keeper!


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> A comment on using two video outputs from a Radiance Pro to drive both a TV and a projector.
> 
> We have seen some TVs and at least one projector go into what I lovingly refer to as Zombie Mode when they are in standby. This sometimes happens as soon as they are put in standby and sometimes it happens over a longer period as if they go to a lower power mode.
> 
> What I mean by this is the TV/projector goes into standby and instead of putting their HDMI input completely to sleep the HDMI input goes to half-awake mode. In this mode the TV/project is awake enough that the Pro realizes it is there and tries to connect, but the TV/projector does not respond properly. So then the Pro says "okay, I will keep trying." This happens over and over which keeps the Pro from getting real work done.
> 
> This is easy to test. If you have two displays, disconnect one from the Pro and see if any connectivity issues are resolved with the other, or not. Also, remember that you can have this issue and another unrelated issue that makes it hard to figure out both. So my recommendation is if you are having HDMI issues, simplify your system for testing. Start with the Pro and one TV or projector. Get this working and reliable testing on/off/on/off. Then add one source. Then add the audio processor. Then more sources. The the second display.
> 
> If you figure out you have issues because you have two video devices, you have to figure out a way to not have the second "standby mode" device be in Zombie mode (you could disconnect wall power with a switch), or isolate it from the HDMI output of the Pro (you can use a 2-to-1 switch and select the second non-connected input so the Pro is not connected to the second display).


I will make sure everything else is disconnected and report back 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sandyj

thrang said:


> There are various 4k splitters or audio extractors that can work… I’ve used this one in the past with pretty good success….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-Tech Digital 4K60HZ HDMI Audio Extractor/Converter SPDIF/3.5MM
> 
> 
> The HDMI 18Gbps Audio Extractor could extract audio signals from any HDMI compliant source to digital optical or analog stereo L/R audio outputs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jtechdigital.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much more expensive, but of you have an HDFury Vertex or Integral, that can help.
> 
> They don’t work 100% of the time, but reasonably close…


Thanks for the reply I have a HDFury Vertex did you put it after the Lumagen or before, did it do the switching for sources and the splitting of the audio etc ?


----------



## sor

Hey all, a few quick questions about the S&M benchmark disc with the Lumagen and a projector.

Looking at the HDR/SDR butterfly- I’m guessing this isn’t a great representation since the tone mapping might be mapping the image based on the HDR information, which would crush the SDR side. Say without the Lumagen the HDR side might be washed out and clipping, and the SDR side might look good - with the Lumagen the HDR gets mapped down and the SDR looks dim?

Looking at the various HDR demos, I don’t see a large difference between 10000, 4000, and 1000... I’m thinking this is expected and shows the Lumagen is mapping all of these properly. I suspect if I worked at it I could probably find some differences, I might have detected some slight saturation differences, or maybe I am just not discerning enough  If I should be seeing a clear difference between these I might spend some more time going back and forth. If I pull the Lumagen out of the chain and rely on the projector alone I can clearly see a difference that easily shows up in photo.

Mostly just trying to see if I understand the function of the tone mapping correctly.


----------



## MOberhardt

blake said:


> Yeah but since atv isn’t broadcast .. isn’t the majority of its streaming content native 24 FPS (so no 3:2 or up conversion needed if you set matched content=off and display setting 4k/sdr/24 )?
> 
> Hdmi Handshake on JVC rs4500 is like 20 seconds which is a bit of an annoyance when going back and forth previewing trailers etc to decide what to watch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah it is, but the pathetic fact of the matter is apple is still catering for this garbage 60hz junk by putting menus trailers etc 60p, so between episodes, going to the menu, it then drops to stupid 60hz and handshaking ensues. 60 and 50hz is a stain on av.

It is even worse in the 50Hz regions like where I live where the Apple tv keeps trying to default to 50hz which is even worse. Firmware update, back to 50hz match frame rate off. Power loss, 50hz match frame rate off. It is annoying as heck.


----------



## ht guy

woofer said:


> Just some follow up on the New .Radiance 5348.
> 
> ...I will start with VIDEO as that is the utmost importance to "me" .
> 
> Is there a "big" difference in Video performance between the 5348 and the 4242 ?? ...NO... Is there "any" difference in Video between the 5348 and the 4242 ??.... YES...
> 
> I absolutely see a reduction in image/video noise on the 5248 ! it certainly isn't "in your face" , but it "IS" there.
> 
> The other thing i am noticing is the increased "Fine" "Intricate" detail !
> Detail in clothing such as woollen fibres on jumpers, texture on leather, stitching on suits , facial features , small fine text .. and many many more examples.
> Backgrounds , distant objects have that added bit of clarity, which gives the impression of better focus.
> 
> AUDIO....
> 
> This is easy.......
> 
> There is a noticeable difference in presentation between the 5348 and the 4242 ! The 5348 brings the soundstage to a more dynamic level than the 4242 ...its almost like a different EQ curve is applied.
> The 4242 in basic terms sound "Flatter" slightly more "Laid back" in comparison to the 5348 .
> ...
> Jim Peterson has done a wonderful job with the development of the Radiance Pro series .





thrang said:


> I’ve been evaluating the new 5348 Radiance for a week now and wanted to post a few thoughts that might be helpful to others (my overall setup in my sig so will not repeat here)
> 
> ...Content through the 5348 is providing better video and audio performance. It’s not a _magnitudal_ (sic) improvement, but instead a clear refinement. For video, there is reduction of noisiness, most apparent in compressed live viewing (FuboTV); a calmer image I suppose. For 4k content from the Kaleidescape system, the improvement is more manifested in a bit sharper, and again, calmer image.
> 
> Audio, for me, presents the larger improvement - everything seems more tack-sharp. Subtle effects and soundtrack elements that I never really noticed before are more apparent. More room for things to breathe it seems.
> 
> ...For me, with my setup, I’m quite pleased to keep it in my rig. Very nice job by Jim...





kristenmarie said:


> Just upgraded my Radiance Pro 4446+ to the new 5348. There is magic in this new box!
> 
> ...The soundstage is wider, and the audio sounds more natural, less smeared, less harsh, with more clarity. And while the 5348 is billed as an "audiophile upgrade", there are distinct improvements to the video chain as well - the result being the removal of that last little bit of noise, picture is now crystal clear with more detail and a far more realistic image. For me, the 5348 breathes new life into older movies; I couldn't be happier!
> 
> I bought a Keces P8 linear power supply to see if it made a difference with my 4446+ (latest model), and it did decrease the video noise somewhat, but there is a lot of additional improvement once moving to the 5348. It's definitely a keeper!


I'm another owner of the new 5348 and completely agree with @woofer, @thrang and @kristenmarie. (A link to our HT is in my profile if anyone is interested.)

Like kristenmarie, I also upgraded the power supply with the Keces P8. (Side note - seems we no longer have a "one button" solution to turning on the theater as the Keces doesn't appear to have a trigger input/output...)

Before swapping out the 4242 for the 5348, I hooked up the Keces and watched two tracks - one suggested by Jim, and another I'm very familiar with. I then replaced the 4242 in the rack with the 5348, and listed to the same two tracks. Not a blind test, and I had to rely on memory.

Having said that, I'm really into audio. Totally fwiw, I've played in bands for many years and have a home recording studio.

So my focus was where Jim said there would be the greater difference, with the audio performance. My experience has been similar to the impressions above - the soundstage is more natural sounding, with more depth and detail. Very pleased. I've watched pieces of several concert/music blu-rays since (Pretenders, Beatles, Roger Waters, Tanglewood) as well as most of Braveheart - and continue to be happy I made the purchase.

The surprise was the video, where Jim had indicated I may not see a difference. I do. Again, as already covered by others. A bit more detail. Less "noise." Not as dramatic as the audio improvement, but there, nonetheless.

As I didn't know the audio improvement (with a bit of video tossed in) was possible, this was not an upgrade I was looking for, or even considering. Having said that, very happy with the results.

Thanks @jrp and the team at Lumagen!


----------



## ht guy

docrog said:


> Can anyone provide information on the best place to obtain "triple black velvet" material in the USA? Thanks!





ht guy said:


> Here.





Sittler27 said:


> How about in Canada?


Follow the link. They take Canadian dollars and ship to Canada.


----------



## thrang

sandyj said:


> Thanks for the reply I have a HDFury Vertex did you put it after the Lumagen or before, did it do the switching for sources and the splitting of the audio etc ?


i put the hdmi audio extractor between the radiance 4xxx and the projector. My issues weee initial boot to no video. Even without the extractor, once I had video (rebooting to her radiance and or projector or replugging hdmi cables), I never had issue thereafter for that session, regardless of input switching or changes in video signal types.Was only a boot-related issue, and happen around 30% of the time. With the extractor, boot to video was reliable 95% of the time.

Bear in mind the cable type and boot sequence and power-on timing also play a factor in a normal boot up process. I’ve been told that Radiance 4xxx and Sony devices have this issues more than other projector pairings, but don’t really know if JVC owners do also. And perhaps the Trinnov has an impact even as the audio output device, since it takes up to 45 seconds to boot up, which is quite long compared to other receivers/processors.

With the 5xxx series, I’m getting much more reliable boots to video without the audio extractor


----------



## docrog

thrang said:


> I put the hdmi audio extractor between the radiance 4xxx and the projector.


Could you please share what EDID or frame rate you were choosing for your extractor and whether or not it was content dependent? Thank you.


----------



## thrang

docrog said:


> Could you please share what EDID or frame rate you were choosing for your extractor and whether or not it was content dependent? Thank you.


The JTech device is just pass through, there are no settings, other than what kind of audio you want to extract I think, which I was not using. It was acting as an re-synch device I suppose, with different voltage than the Radiance I’m guessing, which the Sony doesn’t belch on very much. The adjustable voltage on the output of the 5xxx may be accomplishing the same thing, but with more optione, but I will let Jim amplify on this aspect more…


----------



## docrog

thrang said:


> The JTech device is just pass through, there are no settings, other than what kind of audio you want to extract I think, which I was not using. It was acting as an re-synch device I suppose, with different voltage than the Radiance I’m guessing, which the Sony doesn’t belch on very much. The adjustable voltage on the output of the 5xxx may be accomplishing the same thing, but with more optione, but I will let Jim amplify on this aspect more…


No, I was asking in regards to your earlier posting which indicated that you had previously inserted an* HDFury *device in the *video* pathway.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> No, I was asking in regards to your earlier posting which indicated that you had previously inserted an* HDFury *device in the *video* pathway.


I don't believe Thrang ever said that.


----------



## thrang

docrog said:


> No, I was asking in regards to your earlier posting which indicated that you had previously inserted an* HDFury *device in the *video* pathway.


I did? 

If you did you would just be setting it to all auto/pass through. It’s not about “converting” the video signal, just using an interim/different HDMI output chipset and (guessing) voltage.

I suppose you could modify the audio to stereo as you don’t need to send audio to the projector (I don’t think the Vertex has a “none” option for audio), but since the video out from the lumagen should be set to video only, I suspect that doesn’t matter


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> I don't believe Thrang ever said that.


See his post #10989: "Much more expensive, but if you have an HDFury Vertex or Integral, that can help. They don’t work 100% of the time, but reasonably close".


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> See his post #10989


LOL, you may want to re-read that. He cites the JTech device and then says "IF you have an hdfury, maybe try that" to another poster.

EDIT: you're completely misinterpreting what he said. He never said he owned one. Plus, in post #11014, he said "I did?"


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> LOL, you may want to re-read that. He cites the JTech device and then says "IF you have an hdfury, *maybe try that*" to another poster.
> 
> EDIT: you're completely misinterpreting what he said. He never said he owned one. Plus, in post #11014, he said "I did?"


I don't understand why you've decided to involve yourself here, but, at least, please be accurate. He didn't post "IF you have an hdfury, maybe try that", but, rather, "if you have an HDFury..*.that can help*" which implied to me that he'd had experience with that manufacturer's extractor. I had merely asked if he could clarify further.


----------



## thrang

While I own a Vertex I was not saying that I used it for this purpose. I used the JTexh.

As posted later, I opined the Vertex could work as well, it’s a bit of experimentation and particular to each persons HW setup


----------



## fatherom

thrang said:


> While I own a Vertex I was not saying that I used it for this purpose. I used the JTexh.
> 
> As posted later, I opined the Vertex could work as well, it’s a bit of experimentation and particular to each persons HW setup


But also, you were using such a device to help alleviate issues with handshakes at "start up" or "boot up" (initially turning on your system), right?

Others were asking if such a device could help with handshakes after a system is up and running (i.e. handshake issues when frame rate changes, or colorspace changes, or HDR/SDR changes). I don't believe (I could be wrong) such a device would help reduce such handshake times.


----------



## thrang

The only issue I had was cold boot video sync with 4xxx and the 5000 - not always but too often.

Once video was established I did not have issue with video output regardless of input switch, frame rate, or colorspace changes.

So the JTech was used for the boot sync issue

That’s all I posted about.


----------



## aguy

I do have a vertex and have used it in between my lumagen and my Sony projector. It definitely was more stable with frame rate changes. I had it setup to pass through only. No processing. 

But ideally I want as little in the chain as possible which is why I’m trouble shooting the handshake issues. 

I assume that by putting any device between the lumagen and projector ( eg vertex) that I will loose the benefit of the lumagen low jitter circuitry? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

aguy said:


> I do have a vertex and have used it in between my lumagen and my Sony projector. It definitely was more stable with frame rate changes. I had it setup to pass through only. No processing. But ideally I want as little in the chain as possible which is why I’m trouble shooting the handshake issues. I assume that by putting any device between the lumagen and projector ( eg vertex) that I will lose the benefit of the lumagen low jitter circuitry?


Thanks for providing that insight. I'll try that (pass through) configuration with my Integral and see if it provides any improvement in both initial handshake time and whether it reduces sync time after changing frame rates.


----------



## jont-uk

just found this on the UK AVF site about the Apple TV 4K tvOS ... looks like good news and an improvement for the PQ and less processing for the Lumagen to correct ? ... "Well the new developer version of the beta has been released (public beta is likely to be tomorrow at the latest) and by all accounts, not only have they fixed the issue, but everything now plays at its correct framerate. No more frame skipping on 24.000hz material and 23.976hz material plays back fine too. Honestly never thought I’d see the day. 👏👏👏"


----------



## bobof

jont-uk said:


> just found this on the UK AVF site about the Apple TV 4K tvOS ... looks like good news and an improvement for the PQ and less processing for the Lumagen to correct ? ... "Well the new developer version of the beta has been released (public beta is likely to be tomorrow at the latest) and by all accounts, not only have they fixed the issue, but everything now plays at its correct framerate. No more frame skipping on 24.000hz material and 23.976hz material plays back fine too. Honestly never thought I’d see the day. 👏👏👏"


No improvement / reduction in processing in the Lumagen as a result, just correct framerate through is now possible from stream to display, where it wasn't before (assuming you mave Match rate enabled in the Lumagen, and optionally Genlock enabled).


----------



## bjorg

jont-uk said:


> just found this on the UK AVF site about the Apple TV 4K tvOS ... looks like good news and an improvement for the PQ and less processing for the Lumagen to correct ? ... "Well the new developer version of the beta has been released (public beta is likely to be tomorrow at the latest) and by all accounts, not only have they fixed the issue, but everything now plays at its correct framerate. No more frame skipping on 24.000hz material and 23.976hz material plays back fine too. Honestly never thought I’d see the day. 👏👏👏"


That's really great news! Hope it makes it into an official release soon.


----------



## am2model3

Does anyone use a lumagen radiance pro to take a 4K HDR video game signal and output it as 4K SDR bt 2020 over projectors? is it easy to figure out?


----------



## jbrinegar

am2model3 said:


> Does anyone use a lumagen radiance pro to take a 4K HDR video game signal and output it as 4K SDR bt 2020 over projectors? is it easy to figure out?


I do. Looks great IMO.


----------



## SJHT

Same here. Also make sure to use game mode on and Genlock on Auto/Normal....


----------



## blake

SJHT said:


> Same here. Also make sure to use game mode on and Genlock on Auto/Normal....


Would you get better game performance / frame rate fluidity if genlock=ON ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> Would you get better game performance / frame rate fluidity if genlock=ON ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Two different things. Game mode is just to keep lag down. Some people seem to be picky about this and others are not. I have TONS of customers that don't use game mode with gaming and have no issues at all. I think some people just turn it on because they think they need to, but unless your a twitch competition gamer, I don't think it needs to be on. 

Genlock is just to keep the frame rate perfectly matched for no dropped frames. It does increase jitter on the output, but that is it. Some people seem to be sensitive to random frame drops without Genlock on, some people don't see them at all. I don't use Genlock personally and have no issues and I consider myself pretty sensitive (the integer frame drops from AppleTV and Netflix drive me nuts). So I tend to tell people to not use it unless they actually see drops that bother them. And I don't recommend ever going to look specifically for problems like this. If you are not seeing it without people prompting you about it, then you probably don't need to worry about it. Too many people seem to get bent out of shape looking for issues they didn't even know existed until someone said something on some forum and then they go into panic mode about something that had absolutely zero effect on them minutes before. LOL.


----------



## Karl Maga

blake said:


> Would you get better game performance / frame rate fluidity if genlock=ON ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





SJHT said:


> Same here. Also make sure to use game mode on and Genlock on Auto/Normal....


I game extensively (PS5), and I do use game mode, but do not use genlock. I have absolutely no issues.

My pj is a JVC NX7.


----------



## SJHT

Jim recommended Genlock on for gaming. For sensitive input from your controller it further minimizes delay. I use it all the time. There are some issues with my 5348 with using Genlock Fast with my setup, but normal works perfect. By controller issues, I mean things where timing has to be perfect. Example, advanced assassination in Assassins Creed Valhalla.... SJ


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Genlock is just to keep the frame rate perfectly matched for no dropped frames. It does increase jitter on the output, but that is it. Some people seem to be sensitive to random frame drops without Genlock on, some people don't see them at all. I don't use Genlock personally and have no issues and I consider myself pretty sensitive (the integer frame drops from AppleTV and Netflix drive me nuts). So I tend to tell people to not use it unless they actually see drops that bother them. And I don't recommend ever going to look specifically for problems like this. If you are not seeing it without people prompting you about it, then you probably don't need to worry about it. Too many people seem to get bent out of shape looking for issues they didn't even know existed until someone said something on some forum and then they go into panic mode about something that had absolutely zero effect on them minutes before. LOL.


I think tolerance for frame cadence issues is on the decline in general as people become more accustomed to cadence correct video, and realise streaming can have perfect cadence (though still, sometimes bitrates can cause encoding issues with fast motion scenes).

If you had the equivalent of the dropped frames in the audio land folk would be up in arms (though maybe not as much as I might expect, as lots seemed to not be able to hear the interruptions that were caused by the AppleTV metadata issues with AppleTV PCM, only hearing it on the Atmos output).

Part of this I think is due to folk in the US not watching so much 60Hz broadcast of 24p sources any more; more and more they are being streamed at the filmed rate. 3:2 pulldown was just one long string of duplicate frame events and 60Hz territories have been brainwashed into thinking this is how content looks. Lots of folk still apparently don't see the 24p vs 23.976p drops which I find amazing to this day.

If you notice Europeans tend to be much more aggrieved by poor cadence because they've nearly always had good motion in the past thanks to 50Hz heritage (and a few more minutes in the day thanks to films running a bit quicker when broadcast at 50Hz!!  and so it stands out like a sore thumb to many.

I certainly don't recommend going out looking for things, but equally I can't see the point of running in operating modes which by design introduce dropped frames - to me not being able to output the same number of frames as input is pretty significant. To that end I still don't understand the use-case for anyone turning off the rate match option in the Lumagen as it doesn't actually do the thing it sounds like today - it is purely to do with the integer vs non-integer matching of input to output. Maybe once upon a time if you were already putting up with crappy 60p 3:2 cadence, the extra dropped frames just passed by in the swamp of nastiness...? Maybe it is a relic from a bygone era.

If I couldn't get genlock to work in my system I'd pull out the Radiance as to me it's just that fundamental a concept in the operation of a video processor. It's one of the circles I still can't square on the Envy product to be honest as that can't do genlock, though it tries to hide the frame drops a bit more in scene changes etc. I'm interested to know how well that works.


----------



## woofer

bobof said:


> It's one of the circles I still can't square on the Envy product to be honest as that can't do genlock, though it *tries to hide the frame drops* a bit more in scene changes etc. * I'm interested to know how well that works.*


I would lay money on you not liking the results...


----------



## bobof

woofer said:


> I would lay money on you not liking the results...


Probably not, scene detection isn't exactly an exact science, and then you've got the +/-21ms lipsync drift over the period either side of dropping the frame. But it's almost the same argument for not having genlock on (give or take any differences that might be intrinsic to the absolute time accuracy of the clock generation). From my understanding if you don't genlock with the Radiance you'll also have +/- 20ms lipsync difference either side of the dropped or duplicate frame event, which can easily nudge you into the "subconsciously annoying" area of lipsync.


----------



## garyolearysteele

am2model3 said:


> Does anyone use a lumagen radiance pro to take a 4K HDR video game signal and output it as 4K SDR bt 2020 over projectors? is it easy to figure out?


Hey,

I’ve been experimenting with this since I had the lumagen installed, my experience is that HDR gaming with DTM is a mixed bag.

On the one hand, some games resolve shadow detail better with HDR, I’m not 100% sure if what I’m seeing is the creators intent, but games like Resident Evil: Maiden demo on PS5, Call of Duty: Cold War, in like for like scenes I can see more detail in dark areas, whereas it’s crushed in SDR. This can be resolved with in game brightness but raises all blacks.

On the other hand, some games look really terrible and the only solution I’ve found is to play it with HDR disabled. One example of this is Medium on Xbox Series X, early parts of the game didn’t seem to be affected, but many scenes later on seem to almost trigger a bug in DTM and look far too bright and washed out. You can see this on the title screen of the Medium. On PlayStation games like the Man of Medan and Little Hope look like you’ve maxed out the brightness (all these games support HDR). Setting Max Light to 1000 (from 240) makes it look something close to what it should, but this then makes other scenes too dark.

I was settled on disabling HDR on the gaming consoles, I’m using a Sony v760es and outputting SDR709 to enable the native colour space (col2) anyway.. however it does seem that recently some games haven’t properly graded blacks in SDR (see digitalfoundry videos on Maiden and Dirt5).

Note also that usually the Xbox and PS5 don’t send MaxCLL, I’ve set mine to 1000, this looks to be what they are expecting based on the defaults of various calibration screens.

I may drop lumagen support an email, though gaming may not be their core focus so it may well be something they don’t pick up. It does seem like it causes some problems for DTM since even in badly affected games it’s not every scene (though there aren’t too many “scenes” that have scene cuts). Jim did mention a known issue with 60hz HDR a while back, but not what the issue was. 

I’d be interested to know if others have found a solution to get the best picture. I’ll try grab some examples, though taking pictures with an IPhone doesn’t always show what you want it to show.


----------



## bobof

garyolearysteele said:


> Hey,
> 
> I’ve been experimenting with this since I had the lumagen installed, my experience is that HDR gaming with DTM is a mixed bag.
> 
> On the one hand, some games resolve shadow detail better with HDR, I’m not 100% sure if what I’m seeing is the creators intent, but games like Resident Evil: Maiden demo on PS5, Call of Duty: Cold War, in like for like scenes I can see more detail in dark areas, whereas it’s crushed in SDR. This can be resolved with in game brightness but raises all blacks.
> 
> On the other hand, some games look really terrible and the only solution I’ve found is to play it with HDR disabled. One example of this is Medium on Xbox Series X, early parts of the game didn’t seem to be affected, but many scenes later on seem to almost trigger a bug in DTM and look far too bright and washed out. You can see this on the title screen of the Medium. On PlayStation games like the Man of Medan and Little Hope look like you’ve maxed out the brightness (all these games support HDR). Setting Max Light to 1000 (from 240) makes it look something close to what it should, but this then makes other scenes too dark.
> 
> I was settled on disabling HDR on the gaming consoles, I’m using a Sony v760es and outputting SDR709 to enable the native colour space (col2) anyway.. however it does seem that recently some games haven’t properly graded blacks in SDR (see digitalfoundry videos on Maiden and Dirt5).


Personally I find DTM to be a means to an end. It's a means to get a watchable picture on a display that isn't intrinsically HDR (there's only a couple of projectors that could really claim to offer HDR) from content only available in HDR with other features I want.

I do DTM because I want the other image attributes (the 4k transfer, higher bitrate streams, the Atmos audio, the wide colour gamut) that I can't get from 1080p bluray or streaming services with HDR turned off.

For gaming, which is generated in the box and where you should still get 4k out, atmos if supported etc) - it seems marginal that HDR gaming really brings anything for projection users. Using HDR because the SDR versions of games haven't sorted out black levels - well I guess that classes as a means to an end, but a pretty crappy one...!


----------



## garyolearysteele

bobof said:


> Personally I find DTM to be a means to an end. It's a means to get a watchable picture on a display that isn't intrinsically HDR (there's only a couple of projectors that could really claim to offer HDR) from content only available in HDR with other features I want.
> 
> I do DTM because I want the other image attributes (the 4k transfer, higher bitrate streams, the Atmos audio, the wide colour gamut) that I can't get from 1080p bluray or streaming services with HDR turned off.
> 
> For gaming, which is generated in the box and where you should still get 4k out, atmos if supported etc) - it seems marginal that HDR gaming really brings anything for projection users. Using HDR because the SDR versions of games haven't sorted out black levels - well I guess that classes as a means to an end, but a pretty crappy one...!


Same,


bobof said:


> Personally I find DTM to be a means to an end. It's a means to get a watchable picture on a display that isn't intrinsically HDR (there's only a couple of projectors that could really claim to offer HDR) from content only available in HDR with other features I want.
> 
> I do DTM because I want the other image attributes (the 4k transfer, higher bitrate streams, the Atmos audio, the wide colour gamut) that I can't get from 1080p bluray or streaming services with HDR turned off.
> 
> For gaming, which is generated in the box and where you should still get 4k out, atmos if supported etc) - it seems marginal that HDR gaming really brings anything for projection users. Using HDR because the SDR versions of games haven't sorted out black levels - well I guess that classes as a means to an end, but a pretty crappy one...!


I'm the same, if UHD movies were readily available as a properly mastered SDR I wouldn't be on this forum  I'm aware DTM is essentially fix and don't expect a DTM HDR image to look better than a native 4K SDR one.. 

But, subject was HDR gaming, and with new consoles it does look like they don't provide the same SDR image they used to in many cases. Perhaps modern games are being tested and developed with HDR in mind since most if their audience will be using a HDR capable TV. 

Perhaps not quite as extreme, but in testing the SDR image seems to be in line with what you would get having your Apple TV force HDR content as SDR, it works.. but... 

Also, in case of the PS5 if you enabled HDR support everything is sent as HDR, including SDR content. The only way to kill it would be to disable it fully in the console settings.

Attached some screenshots to show some examples, as previously mentioned there are cases where SDR/HDR looks looks identical, some benefits in near black with HDR+DTM, your mileage may vary, at the moment though, to answer to original poster, am2model3 , setting the console to output as SDR might be the better option.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Oops, sorry quoted you twice, forgot to say that the first image is the HDR+DTM image and second is SDR. These are the examples that show when the DTM image isnt great to the point that i've disabled HDR. I will see if i can show some examples of the opposite but its hard to pick up and demonstrate shadow detail by pointing an iphone at the screen.


----------



## loggeo

Did anybody get to use a pc through Lumagen? I have used both a rtx2080ti and a rtx3090 and have never managed to get a signal at [email protected] This is very frustrating...


----------



## desertdome

loggeo said:


> Did anybody get to use a pc through Lumagen? I have used both a rtx2080ti and a rtx3090 and have never managed to get a signal at [email protected] This is very frustrating...


You are probably outputting a signal with too high of a bandwidth. Your "output color depth" in the Nvidia control panel needs to be set to 8 bit if you are outputting 4K, 60 Hz, RGB. Alternatively, you can use a higher bit depth and set "output color format" to YCbCr422. One used to have to use YCbCr422 in order for the HDR flag to be recognized by the Lumagen (or display if directly connected). Nvidia fixed that in their drivers and current drivers work fine with RGB.


----------



## loggeo

desertdome said:


> You are probably outputting a signal with too high of a bandwidth. Your "output color depth" in the Nvidia control panel needs to be set to 8 bit if you are outputting 4K, 60 Hz, RGB. Alternatively, you can use a higher bit depth and set "output color format" to YCbCr422. One used to have to use YCbCr422 in order for the HDR flag to be recognized by the Lumagen (or display if directly connected). Nvidia fixed that in their drivers and current drivers work fine with RGB.


Thank you for your reply. No, I have zero success outputting [email protected], 8 bit RGB or 4:2:2. I have used the same cables I use to successfully connect other 4k devices at max bandwidth (oppo 203) and many others. I also tried bypassing my Lumagen Pro and I had success with both my Panasonic Oled and my JVC.
Did you or anyone else actually had success? What was the graphic card?


----------



## docrog

While I found it odd that my JVC NX7 reports that the nits from the RP are consistently 1000/400 (irrespective of HDR content) when the RP is performing DTM, I don't understand why the JVC isn't showing the true source nits when DTM is *disabled* in the RP (still shows as 1000/400 nits). Can anyone explain this for me? Thanks!


----------



## am2model3

thank you all for posting! the lumagen is an expensive video processor and the idea of SDR bt2020 signal from HDR games sounds enticing, but its really expensive. I think i will stay with HDR off on ps5/xsx for now; the imagery looks amazing like that! i just wondered because SDR bt2020 for 4K UHD movie discs on my panasonic UB820 look reallly amazing over projector! Thanks again!


----------



## CP850-CLED

Kaleidescape Cinemascape aspect Ratio question for Jim:

kOS 10.9.1-22013 is mainly a patch release. This kOS release includes the following notable new features:

A redesigned Strato Video configuration page with improvements including:
added the ability to use CinemaScape when using the “Use External Scaler” mode
added new “HDMI Color Sampling” settings to the Advanced Config section

Improvements to the Audio configuration page
Improvements to the warning and error messages displayed by the Browser Interface
Notable bug fixes in this release:

Fixed issue that could cause playback authorizations to timeout on systems with large libraries
If I have a scope screen with automatic aspect ratio and zoom that previously landed me in a 16 x 9 Kaleidescape Cover artwork screen, will this upgrade now allow me to Land in a 21 x 9 artwork screen and still preserve autoaspect and zoom down instead of zoom up?


----------



## desertdome

loggeo said:


> Thank you for your reply. No, I have zero success outputting [email protected], 8 bit RGB or 4:2:2. I have used the same cables I use to successfully connect other 4k devices at max bandwidth (oppo 203) and many others. I also tried bypassing my Lumagen Pro and I had success with both my Panasonic Oled and my JVC.
> Did you or anyone else actually had success? What was the graphic card?


Yes, I do it every day. I have a liquid cooled GTX1080ti.

Try *MENU → Output → Styles → [Style] → HDMI Format → Type → Auto* if you have it set to something else.


----------



## Kris Deering

CP850-CLED said:


> Kaleidescape Cinemascape aspect Ratio question for Jim:
> 
> kOS 10.9.1-22013 is mainly a patch release. This kOS release includes the following notable new features:
> 
> A redesigned Strato Video configuration page with improvements including:
> added the ability to use CinemaScape when using the “Use External Scaler” mode
> added new “HDMI Color Sampling” settings to the Advanced Config section
> 
> Improvements to the Audio configuration page
> Improvements to the warning and error messages displayed by the Browser Interface
> Notable bug fixes in this release:
> 
> Fixed issue that could cause playback authorizations to timeout on systems with large libraries
> If I have a scope screen with automatic aspect ratio and zoom that previously landed me in a 16 x 9 Kaleidescape Cover artwork screen, will this upgrade now allow me to Land in a 21 x 9 artwork screen and still preserve autoaspect and zoom down instead of zoom up?


Wow. I can't believe I wasn't notified about this as it was a request BY ME specifically in a meeting with K's engineers! I've been providing feedback on the request for the last couple months. The only thing this should do is make it where the main menu of the K is available in scope without effecting any video playback outside of that menu. Before, if you wanted a scope menu system it meant the Strato would automatically scale everything you watch to 4K, so you couldn't benefit from outboard scaling with HD or SD content. Now you can have the scope main menu and not worry about scaling with movie/show playback.

I will test it tonight and see if it works as intended.


----------



## Kris Deering

So I just played around with it. Can't believe I've had this loaded for a few days without knowing it. They've actually made several of the changes I suggested/requested including some they didn't think they could do. 

New features:
Ability to have a scope OSD without forcing scaling on the output with movies. So for someone with a Lumagen, I would suggest setting it to USE EXTERNAL SCALER and then CINEMASCAPE LETTERBOX for the OSD. Disregard the little icons to the right, they show a change for movie playback when you select this, but as long as you have USE EXTERNAL SCALER in the selection above, it doesn't do anything to movie playback. 

Also new in the advanced settings menu:
You can now select the refresh rate of the OSD. This allows you to select 24p for the OSD so no resynch. This was something that Lumagen added awhile back if you used the flags and stuff, now you can select it directly in the settings so you don't have to do the work arounds. Remember, the OSD is designed for 60p, so it won't look as good at 24, but it will synch faster!

You can also now change the output color sampling to 444, 422 or 8 bit RGB. I suggest 422 for Lumagen users as this gives you full 12 bit.

All in all, some great updates!


----------



## loggeo

desertdome said:


> Yes, I do it every day. I have a liquid cooled GTX1080ti.
> 
> Try *MENU → Output → Styles → [Style] → HDMI Format → Type → Auto* if you have it set to something else.


Unfortunately I had zero success. Could it be a problem with the RTX cards? @jrp or perhaps @woofer that I believe owns an rtx card?


----------



## Des511

Can I roll back to a previous firmware?


----------



## Kris Deering

Des511 said:


> Can I roll back to a previous firmware?


yes


----------



## Sittler27

Anyone have any luck connecting their RP to a macbook pro via USB that is running Windows 10 via bootcamp?

I'm using a USB C to USB A dongle of course.


----------



## SBHT2002

Kris Deering said:


> So I just played around with it. Can't believe I've had this loaded for a few days without knowing it. They've actually made several of the changes I suggested/requested including some they didn't think they could do.
> 
> New features:
> Ability to have a scope OSD without forcing scaling on the output with movies. So for someone with a Lumagen, I would suggest setting it to USE EXTERNAL SCALER and then CINEMASCAPE LETTERBOX for the OSD. Disregard the little icons to the right, they show a change for movie playback when you select this, but as long as you have USE EXTERNAL SCALER in the selection above, it doesn't do anything to movie playback.
> 
> Also new in the advanced settings menu:
> You can now select the refresh rate of the OSD. This allows you to select 24p for the OSD so no resynch. This was something that Lumagen added awhile back if you used the flags and stuff, now you can select it directly in the settings so you don't have to do the work arounds. Remember, the OSD is designed for 60p, so it won't look as good at 24, but it will synch faster!
> 
> You can also now change the output color sampling to 444, 422 or 8 bit RGB. I suggest 422 for Lumagen users as this gives you full 12 bit.
> 
> All in all, some great updates!


Great new features. I’m having a problem with Lumagen not always detecting correct aspect of the Kscape Cinemascape OSD.

Is there a way to force Lumagen to only have 2.40 aspect with OSD and then auto aspect for movie? Maybe with the Kscape Graphic Flag and ‘Other’ mode config?


----------



## docrog

docrog said:


> While I found it odd that my JVC NX7 reports that the nits from the RP are consistently 1000/400 (irrespective of HDR content) when the RP is performing DTM, I don't understand why the JVC isn't showing the true source nits when DTM is *disabled* in the RP (still shows as 1000/400 nits). Can anyone explain this for me? Thanks!


Sorry to repost, but I'm really hoping that someone can weigh in on this subject. Thanks!


----------



## LJG

Is anyone having trigger issues with 5348?


----------



## SJHT

LJG said:


> Is anyone having trigger issues with 5348?


They had to send me a new beta firmware as I wanted to completely control with RS232. It wasn’t working and would still turn on even with RS232 only setting for the trigger. Having this trigger is great for my Trinnov as WOL was not as bullet proof. What issue are you having? SJ


----------



## aguy

Using auto aspect ratio detection and set up as a 2.4 ratio on output. 

when a 16:9 ratio is detected my lumagen corrrectly shrinks it to fit within the height of the 2.4 image. 

I’ve noticed that when the auto aspect ratio detects a change ( for example to a 2.4 movie) when it change zooming there is a flash of a previous image ( in my case the menu of Kodi)which may have been on screen a long time before. Is that to be expected?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LJG

SJHT said:


> They had to send me a new beta firmware as I wanted to completely control with RS232. It wasn’t working and would still turn on even with RS232 only setting for the trigger. Having this trigger is great for my Trinnov as WOL was not as bullet proof. What issue are you having? SJ


The trigger will turn off and then on during session for no particular reason. It is controlled by RS232 and Crestron


----------



## giomania

LJG said:


> Is anyone having trigger issues with 5348?


I wanted to get one but my wife would not let me pul the trigger! 

Thank you; I’ll be here all week 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> Sorry to repost, but I'm really hoping that someone can weigh in on this subject. Thanks!


If you turn off DTM, isn't it still doing Static tone mapping? I believe it should pass through the source nits only when you turn off the tone mapping completely and let it pass through HDR.


----------



## SJHT

LJG said:


> The trigger will turn off and then on during session for no particular reason. It is controlled by RS232 and Crestron


Yeah, the new firmware that I tested for them will likely fix that. I also had it doing similar things. I’m sure it will be released soon or contact support. SJ


----------



## 187crew003

aguy said:


> Using auto aspect ratio detection and set up as a 2.4 ratio on output.
> 
> when a 16:9 ratio is detected my lumagen corrrectly shrinks it to fit within the height of the 2.4 image.
> 
> I’ve noticed that when the auto aspect ratio detects a change ( for example to a 2.4 movie) when it change zooming there is a flash of a previous image ( in my case the menu of Kodi)which may have been on screen a long time before. Is that to be expected?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have the same thing so I’m assuming it’s normal


----------



## bobof

I have a slightly less annoying version of something similar with a 16:9 screen using auto aspect; - I don't change scaling as my screen is top / bottom masking (so all I really need to do is detect the input ratio), but still when the auto aspect "switches" ratios there is a duplicate frame.

It would be nice if it was cleaner in switching ratios.


----------



## Kris Deering

Weird. I’ve been using auto aspect for years now and have never had this issue once.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Weird. I’ve been using auto aspect for years now and have never had this issue once.


I think it shows that with so many different setups and variables, that many anomalies are possible. Makes it tough for a device like lumagen to account for all of these scenarios. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Weird. I’ve been using auto aspect for years now and have never had this issue once.


The one where the scaling doesn't change but AA is causing the frame stutter has been there forever, it's a bit annoying as in my setup you basically get a frame stutter then the masks start moving (all the while there's no scaling change due to only top / bottom masks).. I've mentioned it to the guys at Lumagen a couple of times and they acknowledged it but I think it's in the hard to fix category. (Edit: I should add while it's an annoyance, I'm resigned to it being what it is, and isn't >that< big a deal - I only mention it as it sounds like it might be related to what @aguy @187crew003 mentioned)


----------



## docrog

MDesigns said:


> If you turn off DTM, isn't it still doing Static tone mapping? I believe it should pass through the source nits only when you turn off the tone mapping completely and let it pass through HDR.


Many thanks for your input. What/where are the settings that would allow me to completely turn off tone mapping and allow pass though of HDR? I'd greatly appreciate any specific instructions that you're be able to provide.


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> Many thanks for your input. What/where are the settings that would allow me to completely turn off tone mapping and allow pass though of HDR? I'd greatly appreciate any specific instructions that you're be able to provide.


Sorry, thats out of my expertise since I don't have a lumagen, hopefully other users can help. Im just trying to follow here closely and maybe get one some day.


----------



## Des511

If I need to factory reset my JVC N7, can I just copy down all the calibration settings on the N7 for the Lumagen and enter them back in after the reset?


----------



## jrp

I am excited Kaleidescape now allows the OSD output at 24 Hertz. I have been asking for this since the Radiance intro in 2007. Their animation is targeted at 60 (or 50) Hertz, and so is not as smooth at 24 Hertz (which is why they were hesitant to add this), but I am fine with that. I have turned off cover art animation for the OSD which is a feature they added after I had made the request a couple years ago. However, I know not everyone will like the new 24 Hertz OSD output mode, but I am thrilled Kaleidescape has added it for those of us who do want the OSD at 24 Hertz.

If you set the Strato OSD output to 24 Hertz, and 2.35 aspect, you can use the recent "Graphics Flag" Radiance Pro feature to select a different memory that has Auto-Aspect turned off for the OSD, and manually select 2.35 for this memory so the OSD always is 2.35. If you do a Save after selecting 2.35 as the input aspect for this memory, it will be remembered after a power off.

You would enable the "report graphics flag" feature in the Strato, enable the new "use graphics flag" feature in the Radiance Pro, and then set the "Other" input memory for the Strato input to select a different input memory, but the same 24 Hertz output memory you want for 24 Hertz content. Then disable Auto-Aspect in the memory used for the OSD and enable it in the memory used for content.

Make sure to do a Save.

=======

Now that Kaleidescape has the 24 Hertz OSD output mode, I cannot help but mention the other part of my request for this. I mostly view 24 Hertz content, but sometimes I am in the mode for watching music videos (even more so now considering the audio improvements of the Radiance Pro 5348).

I tend to be bimodal: Watch a lot of 24 Hertz content, then switch over and watch a lot of 60 Hertz content. When I am in "60 Hertz viewing mode" I want the OSD to be 60 Hertz. I expect other might agree.

So my next request is to have a mode for the OSD that selects the same rate as the previously viewed content. The OSD would be 24 Hertz at power on, but once 60 Hertz video is viewed, the OSD would be 60 Hertz. If I then switch to 24 Hertz content I pay the projector restart penalty once, but after that the OSD would be at 24 Hertz when I stop the 24 Hertz content.

Kaleidescape is being very responsive to reasonable requests. To me this shows they are serious about their goal to be the best source device on the planet for quality, and for user experience. Congratulations to the Kaleidescape team for a great job.


----------



## ankurjohriddsmd

aguy said:


> I am about to swap my hdmi cable from my lumagen 4xxx to my Sony projector. Hopefully the tributaries uhdv does the job
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am running Amazon certified hdmi 3m cables with my Lumagen. No issues. Only problem I've heard is if cable is too short to/from the Lumagen.


----------



## jrp

On computer gaming:

IMO most computer gaming companies do not appear to understand mastering content in HDR. I read a description of HDR on one gaming site a while back and almost had to laugh at how it showed a lack of understanding about HDR.

Most games report 0 for MaxCLL. This is silly (I have much stronger words for this but I will stick with silly). Most games have content up to 10000 nits. IMO this is again silly. So this is a two part post: First my suggestions to the gaming companies (should they care to listen), and then some thoughts on optimizing games that have issues in mastering for HDR.

==================

IMO here are the rules for gaming software companies for mastering in HDR. There is more to it than these suggestions, but these would help. And of course these are just my opinion.

Master to 4000 nits:

Many games have data up to near 10000 nits. I believe this is both unnecessary, and is actually a bad decision. If you have ever looked at 4000 nits on a display you know it is blinding. However, movies can be mastered to 4000 nits properly, and so I think this is a good standard for games.

Since humans can only see about [EDIT] 100:1 contrast range for a single scene, even a 1000 nit master can provide excellent results, but 4000 nits is reasonable standard.

Since almost all commercial video content is mastered to either 1000 or 4000 nits, gaming companies should choose one of these. TVs and projector companies optimize for these, and not 10000 nits. When games diverge from industry norms it creates issues with no benefit.

===

Report the MaxCLL used for mastering:

No excuse for games reporting 0 nits as the MaxCLL. Surely there is some content above black in the game. Perhaps this is even an issue in the console itself.

No excuse for not reporting the correct MaxCLL. Surely the correct MaxCLL is known (or should be known) to the game company mastering the game for HDR.

We considered completely ignoring the reported MaxCLL since a lot of video content, and the games we know about, get it wrong. We decided to keep using MaxCLL as a hint since some good content benefits from knowing what the movie producer intended as the maximum brightness for the movie. The Radiance Pro allows the user to manually set the MaxCLL, now even if a non-zero MaxCLL is reported.

===

Evaluate the HDR game on a projector -- using the Radiance Pro DTM 

This is actually a good way to check the game master in general. Use a Radiance Pro with DTM enabled (and the Pro setup correctly) to vet the content on a projector to see if the HDR mastering is done properly. One producer for a major movie studio, who does post production, now uses the Radiance Pro DTM to vet consumer HDR content. He says the Radiance Pro DTM is the best, and says he knows content is optimal if it looks correct through the Radiance Pro.

If the images look washed out on a projector using Radiance Pro DTM IMO they are not mastered correctly.

===

Make sure content that is 100 nits and less in real life is rendered at 100 nits and less:

No reason for a moderately bright room to be at 1000 nits. In this case it is "garbage in" to the DTM system.

========================================

For gamers playing HDR games:

If you are HDR gaming, and the game is not mastered correctly you can make adjustments in the Radiance Pro to optimize the images.

While playing the game, enable the debug feature that reports the MaxY (luminance) and MaxCLL for each frame. This is MENU 0532. Observe the MaxCLL value through various parts of the game. Then enable "always use the default MaxCLL" feature (in the Input Options HDR Setup menu) and set it to the observed largest MaxCLL.

You can use a different CMS for gaming and then try a different, perhaps larger, Max Light. Then experiment with different Low Ratios (in left-arrow HDR parameter menu). I do not game and so I do not have suggestions on these other than I believe raising Max Light and the "effective dark scene" max light (using Low Ratio) may help with the washed-out look someone posted above.

Once you have a different CMS for gaming, you can also try raising the Gamma_Factor for the CMS used for Gamming if you have a slightly washed out look.


----------



## jrp

On stutter, or an old frame, on a auto aspect change:

If you see an unrelated frame on an aspect change (as long as the source resolution remains unchanged), I do not believe this is the Radiance Pro given the way the frame buffers are sequenced in the Radiance Pro. The frame buffers are in a circular queue and all active frame buffers are cycled through multiple times per second.

I can see an auto-aspect change changing something in the projector and it is possible the projector (or TV) has a stale frame that cycles away after then next frame out of the projector.

In my experience I have never seen an unrelated frame on aspect ratio change with the Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS4500. Since I see a lot of aspect changes using auto-aspect in my testing, this tends to confirm my hypothesis above.

==== 

I can see there being a frame "stutter" on an auto-aspect change. This would be due to the frame flip timing being slightly different during the aspect change. Processing the aspect change could be taking long enough that the processor misses the next "flip frame" slot.

As Bobof suggests this is likely difficult to change in the Pro, and it is a minor thing since the aspect ratio change is the big thing and a frame drop the small thing. It might be possible if we redesigned the FPGA to take 100% control of the frame flips, but this is a major change for something that occurs only on an aspect switch.

If you use auto-aspect, one reason to use the new "merge aspects" feature is to prevent slight changes in the source from engaging an auto aspect change where the image size does not significantly change. Personally I merge 2.35 and 2.40, and then merge 16:9 and 1.85. These prevent an auto-aspect change on a small change in the content.


----------



## docrog

MDesigns said:


> Sorry, thats out of my expertise since I don't have a lumagen, hopefully other users can help. Im just trying to follow here closely and maybe get one some day.


Well, hopefully, an owner (or two) of the RP can help me with the issue of my post.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Many thanks for your input. What/where are the settings that would allow me to completely turn off tone mapping and allow pass though of HDR? I'd greatly appreciate any specific instructions that you're be able to provide.


Set CMS1 Colorspace = HDR2020. In CMS1.HDR Mapping set it to Off. Make sure to Save.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Set CMS1 Colorspace = HDR2020. In CMS1.HDR Mapping set it to Off. Make sure to Save.


Thanks, Jim. These were the same settings that Craig R. walked me through last week. He had temporarily set up MEM B with CMS6 for Rec709 and CMS7 for BT2020 until he's able to return to re-calibrate my system. The NX7 still indicates 100/400 nits when playing the S&M demo material set at 10,000 nits or the bright scenes in 'The Meg', the same MAX CLL/MAX FALL as when the RP was doing DTM. The NX7 properly reports nits for these and other titles when the RP is removed from the video chain which suggests that (if 1000/400 nits is accurate) the RP may be performing static tone mapping prior to the NX7s DTM application. Have you any other suggestions related to RP settings to allow the NX7 to indicate the actual (proper) source nits?


----------



## docrog

I'd greatly appreciated if an owner of the Radiance Pro and any of the current line of JVC lamp projectors (NX5/7/9, RS1000/2000/3000) could quickly check one thing for me. While playing HDR content could you please access the JVC menu overlay and comment on what is being shown for MAX CLL/MAX FALL? I'd very much like to know whether the JVC's displayed value remains constant or changes with content. I think that the demo material on the S&M disc would be optimal for this purpose after selecting 10,000 and 4,000 nits. Much appreciated!


----------



## LJG

SJHT said:


> Yeah, the new firmware that I tested for them will likely fix that. I also had it doing similar things. I’m sure it will be released soon or contact support. SJ


Fixed with new firmware


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> On stutter, or an old frame, on a auto aspect change:
> 
> If you see an unrelated frame on an aspect change (as long as the source resolution remains unchanged), I do not believe this is the Radiance Pro given the way the frame buffers are sequenced in the Radiance Pro. The frame buffers are in a circular queue and all active frame buffers are cycled through multiple times per second.
> 
> I can see an auto-aspect change changing something in the projector and it is possible the projector (or TV) has a stale frame that cycles away after then next frame out of the projector.
> 
> In my experience I have never seen an unrelated frame on aspect ratio change with the Lumagen Demo Theater's JVC RS4500. Since I see a lot of aspect changes using auto-aspect in my testing, this tends to confirm my hypothesis above.


What kind of thing that could happen on the Lumagen output could you imagine triggering a projector to display some ghost frame from once-upon-a-time? Assuming that the right numbers of pixels were still making it out of the HDMI signal, I guess it would have to be something like a motion processing or similar algorithm switching into a different mode because of the rapid change in active pixels?


jrp said:


> I can see there being a frame "stutter" on an auto-aspect change. This would be due to the frame flip timing being slightly different during the aspect change. Processing the aspect change could be taking long enough that the processor misses the next "flip frame" slot.
> 
> As Bobof suggests this is likely difficult to change in the Pro, and it is a minor thing since the aspect ratio change is the big thing and a frame drop the small thing. It might be possible if we redesigned the FPGA to take 100% control of the frame flips, but this is a major change for something that occurs only on an aspect switch.
> 
> If you use auto-aspect, one reason to use the new "merge aspects" feature is to prevent slight changes in the source from engaging an auto aspect change where the image size does not significantly change. Personally I merge 2.35 and 2.40, and then merge 16:9 and 1.85. These prevent an auto-aspect change on a small change in the content.


Without knowing much more about the way the frame presentation works it's hard to make any useful comment. In my case with the top / bottom masks I don't actually >need< the ability for the AR change to do anything to the image so it grates that bit more (except perhaps change the amount of top / bottom masking applied to ensure a clean presentation); the "big" thing for me in that scenario is the video playback, and the "small" thing is the movement of the masks  (different to a "scope" screen use case like you mention). I guess the "scope" screen type AR change, which usually brings a scaling change, is maybe the more common case for your users as I know there is perhaps a preference for CIH in enlightened circles with bigger rooms.

Anyway, maybe one day it will go away.


----------



## sor

sor said:


> Hey all, a few quick questions about the S&M benchmark disc with the Lumagen and a projector.
> 
> Looking at the HDR/SDR butterfly- I’m guessing this isn’t a great representation since the tone mapping might be mapping the image based on the HDR information, which would crush the SDR side. Say without the Lumagen the HDR side might be washed out and clipping, and the SDR side might look good - with the Lumagen the HDR gets mapped down and the SDR looks dim?
> 
> Looking at the various HDR demos, I don’t see a large difference between 10000, 4000, and 1000... I’m thinking this is expected and shows the Lumagen is mapping all of these properly. I suspect if I worked at it I could probably find some differences, I might have detected some slight saturation differences, or maybe I am just not discerning enough  If I should be seeing a clear difference between these I might spend some more time going back and forth. If I pull the Lumagen out of the chain and rely on the projector alone I can clearly see a difference that easily shows up in photo.
> 
> Mostly just trying to see if I understand the function of the tone mapping correctly.


Just thought I’d bump my question here, I happened to ask it in the middle of another conversation and it quickly got buried.


----------



## 187crew003

when my new lumagen arrives I will see if i can get it on video (the stale fram flash)


----------



## Kris Deering

sor said:


> Just thought I’d bump my question here, I happened to ask it in the middle of another conversation and it quickly got buried.


That pattern doesn’t work with projector tone mapping. It is meant for an absolute display. The SDR side is not really SDR so it is being tone mapped. On an absolute display it would not be.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks, Jim. These were the same settings that Craig R. walked me through last week. He had temporarily set up MEM B with CMS6 for Rec709 and CMS7 for BT2020 until he's able to return to re-calibrate my system. The NX7 still indicates 100/400 nits when playing the S&M demo material set at 10,000 nits or the bright scenes in 'The Meg', the same MAX CLL/MAX FALL as when the RP was doing DTM. The NX7 properly reports nits for these and other titles when the RP is removed from the video chain which suggests that (if 1000/400 nits is accurate) the RP may be performing static tone mapping prior to the NX7s DTM application. Have you any other suggestions related to RP settings to allow the NX7 to indicate the actual (proper) source nits?


In HDR2020 output mode with DTM disabled the Pro should pass through the source's MaxCLL. You can check the source's reported MaxCLL on Info Pg 2 (press OK twice with no OSD on the screen). If the projector does not match this MaxCLL report, there is certainly the chance a bug has crept in on the Pro's output MaxCLL report this since it is not our recommended setup.

We will investigate.

Thanks for the report.


----------



## Luckie

What are the most important settings to get right on an Apple TV 4K and Oppo-203 UHD to get the best picture from RP to Lg OLED G6 ?? Not individual numbered settings just On/Off , Source Direct etc ??

~M~


----------



## garyolearysteele

jrp said:


> On computer gaming:
> 
> IMO most computer gaming companies do not appear to understand mastering content in HDR. I read a description of HDR on one gaming site a while back and almost had to laugh at how it showed a lack of understanding about HDR.
> 
> Most games report 0 for MaxCLL. This is silly (I have much stronger words for this but I will stick with silly). Most games have content up to 10000 nits. IMO this is again silly. So this is a two part post: First my suggestions to the gaming companies (should they care to listen), and then some thoughts on optimizing games that have issues in mastering for HDR.
> 
> ==================
> 
> IMO here are the rules for gaming software companies for mastering in HDR. There is more to it than these suggestions, but these would help. And of course these are just my opinion.
> 
> Master to 4000 nits:
> 
> Many games have data up to near 10000 nits. I believe this is both unnecessary, and is actually a bad decision. If you have ever looked at 4000 nits on a display you know it is blinding. However, movies can be mastered to 4000 nits properly, and so I think this is a good standard for games.
> 
> Since humans can only see about [EDIT] 100:1 contrast range for a single scene, even a 1000 nit master can provide excellent results, but 4000 nits is reasonable standard.
> 
> Since almost all commercial video content is mastered to either 1000 or 4000 nits, gaming companies should choose one of these. TVs and projector companies optimize for these, and not 10000 nits. When games diverge from industry norms it creates issues with no benefit.
> 
> ===
> 
> Report the MaxCLL used for mastering:
> 
> No excuse for games reporting 0 nits as the MaxCLL. Surely there is some content above black in the game. Perhaps this is even an issue in the console itself.
> 
> No excuse for not reporting the correct MaxCLL. Surely the correct MaxCLL is known (or should be known) to the game company mastering the game for HDR.
> 
> We considered completely ignoring the reported MaxCLL since a lot of video content, and the games we know about, get it wrong. We decided to keep using MaxCLL as a hint since some good content benefits from knowing what the movie producer intended as the maximum brightness for the movie. The Radiance Pro allows the user to manually set the MaxCLL, now even if a non-zero MaxCLL is reported.
> 
> ===
> 
> Evaluate the HDR game on a projector -- using the Radiance Pro DTM
> 
> This is actually a good way to check the game master in general. Use a Radiance Pro with DTM enabled (and the Pro setup correctly) to vet the content on a projector to see if the HDR mastering is done properly. One producer for a major movie studio, who does post production, now uses the Radiance Pro DTM to vet consumer HDR content. He says the Radiance Pro DTM is the best, and says he knows content is optimal if it looks correct through the Radiance Pro.
> 
> If the images look washed out on a projector using Radiance Pro DTM IMO they are not mastered correctly.
> 
> ===
> 
> Make sure content that is 100 nits and less in real life is rendered at 100 nits and less:
> 
> No reason for a moderately bright room to be at 1000 nits. In this case it is "garbage in" to the DTM system.
> 
> ========================================
> 
> For gamers playing HDR games:
> 
> If you are HDR gaming, and the game is not mastered correctly you can make adjustments in the Radiance Pro to optimize the images.
> 
> While playing the game, enable the debug feature that reports the MaxY (luminance) and MaxCLL for each frame. This is MENU 0532. Observe the MaxCLL value through various parts of the game. Then enable "always use the default MaxCLL" feature (in the Input Options HDR Setup menu) and set it to the observed largest MaxCLL.
> 
> You can use a different CMS for gaming and then try a different, perhaps larger, Max Light. Then experiment with different Low Ratios (in left-arrow HDR parameter menu). I do not game and so I do not have suggestions on these other than I believe raising Max Light and the "effective dark scene" max light (using Low Ratio) may help with the washed-out look someone posted above.
> 
> Once you have a different CMS for gaming, you can also try raising the Gamma_Factor for the CMS used for Gamming if you have a slightly washed out look.


Thanks for the info. On the game dev front, things are improving and modern games and TV’s are adopting HGIG, I have a few that do and they have been the better ones.

HGIG info here if you haven’t seen it, it’s an attempt to get devs to all sing from a the same hymn sheet and match output to display capabilities. 



https://www.hgig.org/doc/ForBetterHDRGaming.pdf



When using a HGIG game, you can use the system calibration tools to set the max and min luminance, they use a different terminology (Max Tone Mapped Luminance or similar), this seems to line up with MaxCLL. Setting the lumagen to have a forced MaxCLL of 1000 gives the result you’d expect with 14 clicks on the test pattern (which sets the the output to 1000nits Max).

The theory is that this should output content as if it’s mastered at 1000 nits.

I could just as easy use 4000, or even go the other way for a lower value. Is there a benefit to one way or the other for supported games that give you the choice ? Is there an ideal Max luminance for your DTM calculations?

For anyone who is interested, there are some videos on using the Xbox and PS5 calibration tools when DTM is in play.






The tldr version; To set it to 1000nits, go all the way to lowest then do 13 clicks up on PS5, 14 clicks on Xbox. For the black level, he recommends going all the way down to 0nits.

The debug menu should be useful to see if a game is following system settings or outputting something higher than it should be.


----------



## aguy

@jrp ; thank you for always helping answer questions. It’s very much appreciated. 

Been working on aspect ratio control

I’m looking at the rs232 commands. I see the commands that set the output aspect ratio which can be set to any number between 110 and 240. 

But it looks like the input aspect ration can only be set to one of the predefined ratios ( eg 16:9, 1.85, 2.40) etc. not even 2.20 or 1.66 which the auto aspect detection is able to pick up. 

Is there a way to manually set the input resolution to any number between 1.10 and 2.40? Or at I missing something very obvious

Reason I’m asking is that I store all of my aspect ratios as meta data with the movie and it’s very simple then for the masking on my screen to move to the correct place for each movie. I could use the same data to set the aspect ratio of the lumagen which would be quicker that auto detection as well as more reliable. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> In HDR2020 output mode with DTM disabled the Pro should pass through the source's MaxCLL. You can check the source's reported MaxCLL on Info Pg 2 (press OK twice with no OSD on the screen). If the projector does not match this MaxCLL report, there is certainly the chance a bug has crept in on the Pro's output MaxCLL report this since it is not our recommended setup.
> 
> We will investigate.
> 
> Thanks for the report.


Thanks, Jim. As I had pointed out on several occasions, this mismatch between the accurately reported MAX CLL & FALL output of the RP and what metadata the NX7 was indicating (1000/400 in *ALL* instances) has been present in the firmware since I first obtained my RP in 1/2020, irrespective of whether or not I was bypassing the RP's DTM. It would be a plus if this reported metadata mismatch could be fixed going forward to be able to temporarily make use of the NX7's DTM.


----------



## ht guy

docrog said:


> Thanks, Jim. As I had pointed out on several occasions, this mismatch between the accurately reported MAX CLL & FALL output of the RP and what metadata the NX7 was indicating (1000/400 in *ALL* instances) has been present in the firmware since I first obtained my RP in 1/2020, irrespective of whether or not I was bypassing the RP's DTM. It would be a plus if this reported metadata mismatch could be fixed going forward to be able to temporarily make use of the NX7's DTM.


Because you prefer the NX7's DTM over that of the Lumagen?


----------



## docrog

ht guy said:


> Because you prefer the NX7's DTM over that of the Lumagen?


No, although, IMHO, JVC's Frame-By-Frame DTM now runs reasonably close to the RP for the vast amount of HDR content. It has to do with a period of time before Craig Rounds (one of the most knowledgeable Lumagen professional calibrators) will be able to re-calibrate my RP now that I've changed the bulb and updated the NX7 firmware to v3.5. Chad B. was just here, but I had removed the RP from my video chain for his calibration of the NX7 (and re-running of Autocal). Craig's 2020 calibrations now longer are optimal; that's the reason for temporarily bypassing the RP's DTM (etc.). I want to be able to keep the RP in the video stream for superior upscaling to UHD, rather than having the NX7 or video sources upscale legacy content, as well as for its sophisticated edge & Darbee manipulation.


----------



## sor

aguy said:


> @jrp ; thank you for always helping answer questions. It’s very much appreciated.
> 
> Been working on aspect ratio control
> 
> I’m looking at the rs232 commands. I see the commands that set the output aspect ratio which can be set to any number between 110 and 240.
> 
> But it looks like the input aspect ration can only be set to one of the predefined ratios ( eg 16:9, 1.85, 2.40) etc. not even 2.20 or 1.66 which the auto aspect detection is able to pick up.
> 
> Is there a way to manually set the input resolution to any number between 1.10 and 2.40? Or at I missing something very obvious
> 
> Reason I’m asking is that I store all of my aspect ratios as meta data with the movie and it’s very simple then for the masking on my screen to move to the correct place for each movie. I could use the same data to set the aspect ratio of the lumagen which would be quicker that auto detection as well as more reliable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’ve been working on rs232 integration as well, with masking. Do you strip black bars from all of your video files? Otherwise I think setting the AR from metadata may not have the intended effect if you’re using the Lumagen to remove the bars. Almost all of my watching goes in as 178 and comes out as 235, 178, or 185.


----------



## SJHT

The only way I have found to get AR of source content is to switch to a memory with Auto Aspect On (HDMI/Image). This then triggers the Lumagen Pro to analyze the content which updates the source aspect in the various RS232 feedbacks (eg ZQI22). Based upon this feedback, I can then have the control system make changes (masking, etc.). Really only use for non Kaleidescape sources as a Strato will provide this information for the most common ARs in the movie data from their control system. I’ve asked to have an enhancement to the Pro to analyze this and provide feedback without having to use Auto Aspect. Probably not high on their priorities, but they understand the request. I have a 16:9 screen and use top masking and have the Pro lower the picture to the bottom. All driven by the AR of the source content. SJ


----------



## dlinsley

docrog said:


> No, although, IMHO, JVC's Frame-By-Frame DTM now runs reasonably close to the RP for the vast amount of HDR content. It has to do with a period of time before Craig Rounds (one of the most knowledgeable Lumagen professional calibrators) will be able to re-calibrate my RP now that I've changed the bulb and updated the NX7 firmware to v3.5. Chad B. was just here, but I had removed the RP from my video chain for his calibration of the NX7 (and re-running of Autocal). Craig's 2020 calibrations now longer are optimal; that's the reason for temporarily bypassing the RP's DTM (etc.). I want to be able to keep the RP in the video stream for superior upscaling to UHD, rather than having the NX7 or video sources upscale legacy content, as well as for its sophisticated edge & Darbee manipulation.


Since you have a good base calibration on your NX7, it sounds like you just need to backup your RP configuration (in case you want to go back), and then clear any gamma/LUT calibration that Craig previously did in the various CMS banks. You could then still use the RP DTM, likely with defaults except for the Max Light setting. This would see you through until you had Craig back to calibrate via the Lumagen.


----------



## docrog

dlinsley said:


> Since you have a good base calibration on your NX7, it sounds like you just need to backup your RP configuration (in case you want to go back), and then clear any gamma/LUT calibration that Craig previously did in the various CMS banks. You could then still use the RP DTM, likely with defaults except for the Max Light setting. This would see you through until you had Craig back to calibrate via the Lumagen.


Thanks for your thoughts. Since I only have one physical video input to the Lumagen (originally setup as MEM A), Craig has established MEM B to act as a passthrough. In fact, Chad re-running Autocal hasn't appreciably affected Craig's BT2020 calibration as much as his Rec709 (which is no longer properly saturated). I'd love to be able to use one of the remaining RP memories as a hybrid (using Craig's HDR/DTM and Chad's 2D/3D Rec709), but am currently settling to use MEM A for HDR and MEM B for SDR since I'm not sure how to effect the hybrid.


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> @jrp ; ... it looks like the input aspect ration can only be set to one of the predefined ratios ( eg 16:9, 1.85, 2.40) etc. not even 2.20 or 1.66 which the auto aspect detection is able to pick up.
> 
> Is there a way to manually set the input resolution to any number between 1.10 and 2.40? Or at I missing something very obvious


We only have input aspect ratios that are actually used. When consumer content is mastered, even if the original movie is a non-standard aspect, in almost every case the mastering is done to one of the common standards of 4:3, 16:9, 1.85, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40. There is some content above 2.40. The Pro treats these as 2.40 since that is the highest aspect ratio for screens in common use.

With the current remote you can select 2.00 by pressing in series ALT and then 4:3, or 2.20 by pressing in series ALT and then 16:9. These are single button presses with the upcoming Radiance Pro remote.

We do not support 1.66 using the remote, and I have to ask Patrick about Auto-aspect concerning your comment that 1.66 is supported since I did not think we supported 1.66.

There is one other rare bird that we recently added. IMAX content often has an aspect ratio of 1.90 in IMAX theaters. However, when mastered for consumers the aspect is generally changed to 1.78, 1.85 , or 2.40 (might be 2.35). However, these can show up as 1.90 in some cases, and we were asked to add 1.90 as a new source aspect. I believe there is some other content at 1.90, but this is not common.

=========== 

If you have a need for an unusual source aspect ratio there are ways to use a second memory and "lying" to the Radiance Pro for that case by programming an output aspect that is not the actual output aspect. You use the Output Setup Menu to have the different Input Memory select a different Output Style. Then, since 1.66 on a 2.35 screen has an output to input ratio of 1.416. If you select 16:9 source aspect and have programmed that memory to report the output aspect of 2.50 (the max currently supported), you will be very close to having a 1.66 source aspect ratio when you press 16:9.


----------



## jrp

Random comment of the day:

I am not sure if this has been posted on this thread already, but we recently put a new version of the Radiance Pro manual here: Lumagen

We have tried to bring it up to date to include all the new features. There is also passing reference to the Radiance Pro 5348. You may want to down load this updated manual to keep as a handy reference.

If you find errors, and I am sure there are bound to be some, please email the page and paragraph to lumagen.com support.


----------



## jrp

garyolearysteele said:


> ... When using a HGIG game, you can use the system calibration tools to set the max and min luminance, they use a different terminology (Max Tone Mapped Luminance or similar), this seems to line up with MaxCLL. Setting the lumagen to have a forced MaxCLL of 1000 gives the result you’d expect with 14 clicks on the test pattern (which sets the the output to 1000nits Max).


Thanks for the information. Not being a gamer I did not know about HGIG.

I think just having the game choose 1000 or 4000 nits, and reporting the correct MaxCLL, would be simpler, but this sounds like a reasonable approach to improve HDR gaming.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> The only way I have found to get AR of source content is to switch to a memory with Auto Aspect On (HDMI/Image). This then triggers the Lumagen Pro to analyze the content which updates the source aspect in the various RS232 feedbacks (eg ZQI22). Based upon this feedback, I can then have the control system make changes (masking, etc.). Really only use for non Kaleidescape sources as a Strato will provide this information for the most common ARs in the movie data from their control system. I’ve asked to have an enhancement to the Pro to analyze this and provide feedback without having to use Auto Aspect. Probably not high on their priorities, but they understand the request. I have a 16:9 screen and use top masking and have the Pro lower the picture to the bottom. All driven by the AR of the source content. SJ


I discussed this request with Patrick.

This is not the first time we have had a request for a hybrid manual aspect control with auto-aspect reports of the detected aspect ratio. So seems like a reasonable feature to add to the list.

Patrick said it would not be difficult to add and so this might get inserted into one of the "filler" spots for when Patrick is waiting on FPGA synthesis in preparation of a new release.


----------



## SBHT2002

jrp said:


> I am excited Kaleidescape now allows the OSD output at 24 Hertz. I have been asking for this since the Radiance intro in 2007. Their animation is targeted at 60 (or 50) Hertz, and so is not as smooth at 24 Hertz (which is why they were hesitant to add this), but I am fine with that. I have turned off cover art animation for the OSD which is a feature they added after I had made the request a couple years ago. However, I know not everyone will like the new 24 Hertz OSD output mode, but I am thrilled Kaleidescape has added it for those of us who do want the OSD at 24 Hertz.
> 
> If you set the Strato OSD output to 24 Hertz, and 2.35 aspect, you can use the recent "Graphics Flag" Radiance Pro feature to select a different memory that has Auto-Aspect turned off for the OSD, and manually select 2.35 for this memory so the OSD always is 2.35. If you do a Save after selecting 2.35 as the input aspect for this memory, it will be remembered after a power off.
> 
> You would enable the "report graphics flag" feature in the Strato, enable the new "use graphics flag" feature in the Radiance Pro, and then set the "Other" input memory for the Strato input to select a different input memory, but the same 24 Hertz output memory you want for 24 Hertz content. Then disable Auto-Aspect in the memory used for the OSD and enable it in the memory used for content.
> 
> Make sure to do a Save.


I’m trying to take advantage of the new firmware update from Kscape with Cinemascape and the OSD flag.

I have everything set and OSD flag is auto selecting the Other mode. MemA is set to auto aspect ratio and MemB is set auto aspect off and 2.35. 

How do I get the Other mode to auto select MemB and 4K mode to select MemA? What am I missing? 

Thank you


----------



## aguy

sor said:


> I’ve been working on rs232 integration as well, with masking. Do you strip black bars from all of your video files? Otherwise I think setting the AR from metadata may not have the intended effect if you’re using the Lumagen to remove the bars. Almost all of my watching goes in as 178 and comes out as 235, 178, or 185.


No. My files are straight remuxes from the original blu ray. 

What you are saying is correct in that the files have the black bars encoded in and are always therefore presented as a 1.78 frame. But I use a 3rd party metadata manager and have manually added the films aspect ratio as metadata. For example if it’s a 2.40 movie then obviously there are black bars at the top and bottom. I have a 2.4 wide screen so I want the lumagen to not scale at all. 

I can use the auto aspect ratio detection of the lumagen which works 90% plus of the time. But there is a delay before it kicks in and also sometimes it doesn’t pick it up at all. 

I use crestron and I’ve written a simple module that communicates with Kodi and retrieves the aspect ration metadata that I’ve saved myself with the movie and so crestron knows the movie is 2.40. It is very simple for me then to send that via rs232 to the lumagen as well to change lumagens input aspect ratio to 2.40. That is quicker than the auto aspect and also 100 % reliable. 

What I’m not sure about is that there seem to input aspect ratios that the radiance is capable of detecting automatically that don’t seem to have corresponding rs232 commands. 

This is the input aspect ratio command below. I can’t see a command for 2.20, 2.0 for example. 



ZQI20
Input aspect (recommended version). Response= "!I20,XY":
"X"= {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9} corresponding to current input aspect (4:3,LBOX,16:9,1.85,2.35,rsvd,rsvd,rsvd,ALT-1.85,ALT-2.35), "Y"= 'N' if NLS is enabled or '-' if NLS is not enabled. Note: ALT-2.35 is 2.40 Input aspect, and ALT-1.85 is 1.85 input aspect letterboxed in 1.78.

@jrp suggested a work around which sounds like it Involves calculating the ratio of scaling needed and “ tricking” the lumagen to use the correct scaling for unusual aspect ratios by setting the output aspect ratio manually to the ration that gives the same scaling ratio that I am needing for any given input aspect ratio. I will try that when I get the chance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

Here’s an example of the stale frame flash 








Streamable Video


Watch this video on Streamable.




streamable.com




Streamable Video


----------



## Kris Deering

aguy said:


> No. My files are straight remuxes from the original blu ray.
> 
> What you are saying is correct in that the files have the black bars encoded in and are always therefore presented as a 1.78 frame. But I use a 3rd party metadata manager and have manually added the films aspect ratio as metadata. For example if it’s a 2.40 movie then obviously there are black bars at the top and bottom. I have a 2.4 wide screen so I want the lumagen to not scale at all.
> 
> I can use the auto aspect ratio detection of the lumagen which works 90% plus of the time. But there is a delay before it kicks in and also sometimes it doesn’t pick it up at all.
> 
> I use crestron and I’ve written a simple module that communicates with Kodi and retrieves the aspect ration metadata that I’ve saved myself with the movie and so crestron knows the movie is 2.40. It is very simple for me then to send that via rs232 to the lumagen as well to change lumagens input aspect ratio to 2.40. That is quicker than the auto aspect and also 100 % reliable.
> 
> What I’m not sure about is that there seem to input aspect ratios that the radiance is capable of detecting automatically that don’t seem to have corresponding rs232 commands.
> 
> This is the input aspect ratio command below. I can’t see a command for 2.20, 2.0 for example.
> 
> 
> 
> ZQI20
> Input aspect (recommended version). Response= "!I20,XY":
> "X"= {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9} corresponding to current input aspect (4:3,LBOX,16:9,1.85,2.35,rsvd,rsvd,rsvd,ALT-1.85,ALT-2.35), "Y"= 'N' if NLS is enabled or '-' if NLS is not enabled. Note: ALT-2.35 is 2.40 Input aspect, and ALT-1.85 is 1.85 input aspect letterboxed in 1.78.
> 
> @jrp suggested a work around which sounds like it Involves calculating the ratio of scaling needed and “ tricking” the lumagen to use the correct scaling for unusual aspect ratios by setting the output aspect ratio manually to the ration that gives the same scaling ratio that I am needing for any given input aspect ratio. I will try that when I get the chance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is always a few second delay because the Lumagen is making sure it was not a false detect on aspect before just jumping to one. There are all kinds of reasons this can happen, so Lumagen takes steps to try and prevent it. Not switching to the proper aspect after a few seconds is EXTREMELY rare in my experience and I use the Lumagen A LOT both here and with setup at clients. Probably less than 1% of the time does that ever happen.


----------



## aguy

Kris Deering said:


> There is always a few second delay because the Lumagen is making sure it was not a false detect on aspect before just jumping to one. There are all kinds of reasons this can happen, so Lumagen takes steps to try and prevent it. Not switching to the proper aspect after a few seconds is EXTREMELY rare in my experience and I use the Lumagen A LOT both here and with setup at clients. Probably less than 1% of the time does that ever happen.


Oh yea. I’m not saying that the lumagen gets it wrong and I completely understand the need for a few seconds. I’ve had a few movies where the black bars are probably too grey and the auto aspect resolution never kicks in. I’ve also got quite a lot of movies that start with dark intros for the first few minutes and so they don’t trigger the auto aspect change until the movies is well started. 

I just figure that because my control system knows the aspect ratio for Anything I play on Kodi that I may as well use that to change the aspect ratio on lumagen as it’s quicker than auto. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aguy

187crew003 said:


> Here’s an example of the stale frame flash
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Streamable Video
> 
> 
> Watch this video on Streamable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> streamable.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Streamable Video


Yes. Exactly what mine does 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

aguy said:


> Yes. Exactly what mine does


What's the config when this happens - player, display, is frame rate matching on, what frame rate is the menu, what frame rate is the content, what kind of AR adjustment are you doing, are the player menus HDR, is the content played back as HDR, etc etc?
I had a go at poking mine today with the AppleTV on my X7900 and I couldn't make it happen, though I still have the stutter.


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> What's the config when this happens - player, display, is frame rate matching on, what frame rate is the menu, what frame rate is the content, what kind of AR adjustment are you doing, are the player menus HDR, is the content played back as HDR, etc etc?
> I had a go at poking mine today with the AppleTV on my X7900 and I couldn't make it happen, though I still have the stutter.


player is nvidia shield running Emby server
frame rate match is on
menu frame rate is 23.9hz
content is 23.9hz
AR adjust is merged 2.35>2.40
not sure if menu is HDR but all is sent out to PJ as SDR2020 regardless
content is HRD2020 sent out as SDR2020

also it doesnt matter if it goes from menu to content, or if i just pause the movie, but the menu is easier to see since its words and graphics as opposed to a frame consistent with the content . the longer the pause or linger on the menu the more noticeable the flash is.


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> Here’s an example of the stale frame flash
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Streamable Video
> 
> 
> Watch this video on Streamable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> streamable.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Streamable Video


Interesting. I have never seen that artifact before here or at any clients. 



aguy said:


> Oh yea. I’m not saying that the lumagen gets it wrong and I completely understand the need for a few seconds. I’ve had a few movies where the black bars are probably too grey and the auto aspect resolution never kicks in. I’ve also got quite a lot of movies that start with dark intros for the first few minutes and so they don’t trigger the auto aspect change until the movies is well started.
> 
> I just figure that because my control system knows the aspect ratio for Anything I play on Kodi that I may as well use that to change the aspect ratio on lumagen as it’s quicker than auto.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gray bars will create issues because the Lumagen is seeing a signal, not a black bar. The dark intro is also definitely something that would cause the issue because there is no way for the Lumagen to see the active frame (as the black extends across most of the image). It has to see that there is a defined frame with black signal around it to work. Do you have Auto Aspect setup for HDMI+Image? You could always try just HDMI and see if the metadata triggers the proper aspect.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> Interesting. I have never seen that artifact before here or at any clients.


maybe its happened just never reported? I have had it sine day one. but just assumed it was part of the AA switching and didnt say anything till now (and someone else bringing it up) which obv Im fine with just happy it works so flawlessly. its a flash and only when starting in the middle of a scene which isnt often


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> maybe its happened just never reported? I have had it sine day one. but just assumed it was part of the AA switching and didnt say anything till now (and someone else bringing it up) which obv Im fine with just happy it works so flawlessly. its a flash and only when starting in the middle of a scene which isnt often


Maybe, but I tend to hear about things like this from my clients and I have a LOT of Lumagen clients. And I've been using the Radiance Pro and AA for a long time now and have yet to ever see this, which seems odd given how much testing I do of beta firmware and using the feature in general.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> Maybe, but I tend to hear about things like this from my clients and I have a LOT of Lumagen clients. And I've been using the Radiance Pro and AA for a long time now and have yet to ever see this, which seems odd given how much testing I do of beta firmware and using the feature in general.


well at least Im not the only one experiencing it. and it is present on 2 different lumagens. so its my setup obv


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> player is nvidia shield running Emby server
> frame rate match is on
> menu frame rate is 23.9hz
> content is 23.9hz
> AR adjust is merged 2.35>2.40
> not sure if menu is HDR but all is sent out to PJ as SDR2020 regardless
> content is HRD2020 sent out as SDR2020
> 
> also it doesnt matter if it goes from menu to content, or if i just pause the movie, but the menu is easier to see since its words and graphics as opposed to a frame consistent with the content . the longer the pause or linger on the menu the more noticeable the flash is.


Do you have CMD or similar enabled in the projector? And what do you have AA doing - does it change scaling based on the input aspect?
I will try later and see if I can work out how to reproduce. I couldn't make it happen this morning, I have a shield though so will give it a go. (all I have is my usual stutter)


----------



## aguy

Kris Deering said:


> Interesting. I have never seen that artifact before here or at any clients.
> 
> 
> 
> Gray bars will create issues because the Lumagen is seeing a signal, not a black bar. The dark intro is also definitely something that would cause the issue because there is no way for the Lumagen to see the active frame (as the black extends across most of the image). It has to see that there is a defined frame with black signal around it to work. Do you have Auto Aspect setup for HDMI+Image? You could always try just HDMI and see if the metadata triggers the proper aspect.


Set up to hdmi plus image. The movies that failed to trigger auto aspect all together were divergent and insurgent. It’s only my assumption that the bars were grey rather than black. They were early HDR movies and therefore not the best in terms of grading. 

But honestly I don’t feel like this is a problem that needs to be solved. The lumagen is amazing at managing aspect ratios. I just was mostly asking about the ability to set custom input aspects via rs232 because I know that I my control system will do it quicker than relying on the lumagen as I already have the data. 

The workaround of manipulating the the scaling ratio by using custom output aspect ratio instead should in theory work. Really the key thing the lumagen really needs is the ratio for scaling for each movie. Input and output aspect ratios are just how we think about them but really the maths relies on the ratio of the two right ? So the out out of the lumagen as I understand it should be the same in the following two examples. 

Input AR 1.78. Output AR 1.78
Input AR 2.40. Output AR 2.40 

Both of the should not scale at alll ( other than to change resolutions if needed)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> Do you have CMD or similar enabled in the projector? And what do you have AA doing - does it change scaling based on the input aspect?
> I will try later and see if I can work out how to reproduce. I couldn't make it happen this morning, I have a shield though so will give it a go. (all I have is my usual stutter)


no i dont.

if you want I can send you my config file lmk


----------



## aguy

187crew003 said:


> player is nvidia shield running Emby server
> frame rate match is on
> menu frame rate is 23.9hz
> content is 23.9hz
> AR adjust is merged 2.35>2.40
> not sure if menu is HDR but all is sent out to PJ as SDR2020 regardless
> content is HRD2020 sent out as SDR2020
> 
> also it doesnt matter if it goes from menu to content, or if i just pause the movie, but the menu is easier to see since its words and graphics as opposed to a frame consistent with the content . the longer the pause or linger on the menu the more noticeable the flash is.


My setup is similar. 

Playing movies on kodi on odroid n2 running coreelec 

Frame rate is 23.98 for menu and same for most movies. Menu output is bt709 sdr. Auto aspect is hdmi plus image 

Projector is Sony 550es. Sent to projector as sdr2020 4:2:2. 

So there is 709 to 2020 conversion in lumagen for menus in Kodi. 

I haven’t checked if it only happens while playing HDR movies. I’ll check to see if it’s different in HDR or sdr movies as obviously the lumagen is doing sdr to HDR in the menu so that is one possible source I guess of a stale frame 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> no i dont.
> 
> if you want I can send you my config file lmk


No that's ok, I'm not going to reload my own Lumagen with a different config.
For what it's worth I have been able to reproduce this in some fashion.

@jrp , @Kris Deering 
This recipe is repeatable, it might seem contrived but I think this is what autoaspect is doing in these cases, or some variant of.
I set my unit to auto letterbox zoom, 16:9 screen, and then manually select 2.4, so it zooms in.. Play a HDR10 title.
Stop it, which goes back to SDR.
After a short while, AA kicks back in (having been un-stickied by the HDR -> SDR change) and unzooms.
At that point for it seems 1 frame or 2 you see quite old image data around the edge of the frame from before the title having been stopped (several seconds)

It seems the image data that is stale is from the first time it changed aspect. I guess when zoomed some area of memory isn't being used and has stale data which is just left there, and when it unzooms you see this stale data displayed.

In the process I noticed one other little untidyness, I always felt manual zooming was a bit untidy looking; and if you watch it slowed down as you zoom it doesn't just zoom; the image does a little shuffle over 2-3 frames. It initially gets bigger than the target zoom, and then shifts around a bit. 

Neither of these actually affect me as I don't use letterbox zooming or manual zooming, just hope this might help you see where some of these reports might be coming from. Having seen these and fiddled with my own setup a bit I'm 90% that this is all in the Radiance...


----------



## aguy

bobof said:


> No that's ok, I'm not going to reload my own Lumagen with a different config.
> For what it's worth I have been able to reproduce this in some fashion.
> 
> @jrp , @Kris Deering
> This recipe is repeatable, it might seem contrived but I think this is what autoaspect is doing in these cases, or some variant of.
> I set my unit to auto letterbox zoom, 16:9 screen, and then manually select 2.4, so it zooms in.. Play a HDR10 title.
> Stop it, which goes back to SDR.
> After a short while, AA kicks back in (having been un-stickied by the HDR -> SDR change) and unzooms.
> At that point for it seems 1 frame or 2 you see quite old image data around the edge of the frame from before the title having been stopped (several seconds)
> 
> It seems the image data that is stale is from the first time it changed aspect. I guess when zoomed some area of memory isn't being used and has stale data which is just left there, and when it unzooms you see this stale data displayed.
> 
> In the process I noticed one other little untidyness, I always felt manual zooming was a bit untidy looking; and if you watch it slowed down as you zoom it doesn't just zoom; the image does a little shuffle over 2-3 frames. It initially gets bigger than the target zoom, and then shifts around a bit.
> 
> Neither of these actually affect me as I don't use letterbox zooming or manual zooming, just hope this might help you see where some of these reports might be coming from. Having seen these and fiddled with my own setup a bit I'm 90% that this is all in the Radiance...


Yes. I think that is exactly it !!! 

The stale frame I usually notice is also a Kodi menu Frame which is always 16:9. So that would have been there from the previous auto aspect change at the end of the 2:4 movie back to the 16:9 menu. Then I play a new movie which also is 2.4. Initially it plays in a 16:9 frame and then when the auto aspect kicks in after a few seconds ther is usually a stale frame from the menu which as you suggest is probably from the previous auto aspect change 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blake

Why can't 'auto-aspect ratio' feature be temporarily DISABLED? 

I press ALT-CLR on the remote control sequentially (also tried via my RS232 control) which should turn it off. However, immediately thereafter, any change in source content AR still causes the Lumagen to switch AR automatically (tried with both Apple TV 4k and NVidia Shield). I also tried turning it on (Alt-NLS) then off (Alt-CLR) but still switched AR as different source content is played on the SAME device. 

Shouldn't auto-aspect ratio stay OFF after an ALT-CLR, so long as you don't change an input or input memory? Or does a change in content such as HDR to SDR, resolution, or frame rate automatically turn auto-AR back on? 

I have firmware 120320. Auto-AR=Image, Sticky Aspect Override=ON.


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> Why can't 'auto-aspect ratio' feature be temporarily DISABLED?
> 
> I press ALT-CLR on the remote control sequentially (also tried via my RS232 control) which should turn it off. However, immediately thereafter, any change in source content AR still causes the Lumagen to switch AR automatically (tried with both Apple TV 4k and NVidia Shield). I also tried turning it on (Alt-NLS) then off (Alt-CLR) but still switched AR as different source content is played on the SAME device.
> 
> Shouldn't auto-aspect ratio stay OFF after an ALT-CLR, so long as you don't change an input or input memory? Or does a change in content such as HDR to SDR, resolution, or frame rate automatically turn auto-AR back on?
> 
> I have firmware 120320. Auto-AR=Image, Sticky Aspect Override=ON.


In my experience, ALT-CLR effectively behaves like sticky, but without having to select an AR (ie it is "sticky for the current AR").
So the same things that clear sticky mode (eg input format changes, refresh rate, etc) will re-engage auto aspect for you.
I can see both implementations being useful. One that disabled it forever until re-enabled, and one that is the equivalent of sticky like the current behaviour.


----------



## blake

bobof said:


> In my experience, ALT-CLR effectively behaves like sticky, but without having to select an AR (ie it is "sticky for the current AR").
> So the same things that clear sticky mode (eg input format changes, refresh rate, etc) will re-engage auto aspect for you.
> I can see both implementations being useful. One that disabled it forever until re-enabled, and one that is the equivalent of sticky like the current behaviour.


So is there any way to disable auto-AR forever until re-enabled, without having to navigate the Lumagen menu ? 

If you turn sticky off, but auto-AR on, how does it behave ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> So is there any way to disable auto-AR forever until re-enabled, without having to navigate the Lumagen menu ?


The only way I can think is to use the memories functionality, which is a bit of a blunt instrument.



blake said:


> If you turn sticky off, but auto-AR on, how does it behave ?


Not tried it, give it a go and let us know


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> ... when Patrick is waiting on FPGA synthesis in preparation of a new release ...


sounds funny ... 😄
How long does that take ususally?


----------



## jrp

*Harry* said:


> sounds funny ... 😄
> How long does that take usually?


Generally, one to three days, often with design tweaks to meet timing along the way. But of course Patrick is not just twiddling his thumbs while the computer thinks.

Generally Patrick gets the FPGA changes in shape and then while the synthesis tool is thinking, he works on software changes.


----------



## jrp

On the "stale image on auto-aspect change:"

I have never seen this, and given how much I am looking at content of different aspects with Auto-aspect, that still to me indicates it is not the Pro. However, it might be setup specific, source-specific, and it also possible the frame flip is not as I expect it to be cycling through all frame buffers.

The reason I mentioned "I do not think it is the Pro if the source resolution stays the same" is that if it does change (from OSD to content), then this could be in the Pro since a lower source resolution does not overwrite as much of the frame buffer. So if you have a 4k OSD and play 1080 content, then this could be the Pro. The Pro would have to intentionally overwrite the parts of the frame buffer not used for 1080. I doubt the Pro does this extra work.

Question for those who see this: Is your OSD a different resolution then the content?

I have a question in to Patrick on this. I will post here if I find out anything.


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> On the "stale image on auto-aspect change:"
> 
> I have never seen this, and given how much I am looking at content of different aspects with Auto-aspect, that still to me indicates it is not the Pro. However, it might be setup specific, source-specific, and it also possible the frame flip is not as I expect it to be cycling through all frame buffers.
> 
> The reason I mentioned "I do not think it is the Pro if the source resolution stays the same" is that if it does change (from OSD to content), then this could be in the Pro since a lower source resolution does not overwrite as much of the frame buffer. So if you have a 4k OSD and play 1080 content, then this could be the Pro. The Pro would have to intentionally overwrite the parts of the frame buffer not used for 1080. I doubt the Pro does this extra work.
> 
> Question for those who see this: Is your OSD a different resolution then the content?
> 
> I have a question in to Patrick on this. I will post here if I find out anything.


Yes it is a different resolution but the opposite to what you mentioned. 

My Kodi menu is 1080p. The movies I’ve noticed this on are 4k 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 187crew003

Not here. Menu is 4K movie is 4K


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> On the "stale image on auto-aspect change:"
> 
> I have never seen this, and given how much I am looking at content of different aspects with Auto-aspect, that still to me indicates it is not the Pro. However, it might be setup specific, source-specific, and it also possible the frame flip is not as I expect it to be cycling through all frame buffers.
> 
> The reason I mentioned "I do not think it is the Pro if the source resolution stays the same" is that if it does change (from OSD to content), then this could be in the Pro since a lower source resolution does not overwrite as much of the frame buffer. So if you have a 4k OSD and play 1080 content, then this could be the Pro. The Pro would have to intentionally overwrite the parts of the frame buffer not used for 1080. I doubt the Pro does this extra work.
> 
> Question for those who see this: Is your OSD a different resolution then the content?
> 
> I have a question in to Patrick on this. I will post here if I find out anything.


The testing I did was at 1080p and 4k - for both the UI and the content (so both UI and content at 1080p, and then both UI and content at 4k). Though I guess it's not impossible that I was looking at a ghost image from the previous res, it doesn't seem likely as when it was showing the ghost image around the content it was clearly from the video frame shown a few seconds earlier.

It really looked like there was some area of memory that when the image was being scaled wasn't cleared out or similar. Your explanation of the resolution change not clearing all the framebuffer sounds like the kind of thing that might be happening, though I wonder if it is happening in more cases than that (like when going from a larger active input area to smaller one) - perhaps the extra pixels are left as they are). 

I did shoot a high frame rate video of it happening but it's on my camera. As a side note, I'd love to have even faster HFR camera as it looks very "interesting" what the D-ILA screen refresh process looks like (I ended up doing the tests at 1080p as well as 4k to avoid the eShift two flash image presentation, in case it was internal to the projector somehow, but it looked like not related as it was visible at 1080p with eshift off and 4k with eshift on).

Anyway as I say it's not even an issue for me but if you want to try things out let me know as I can make it happen at will now I think.


----------



## Des511

I seem to remember this being spoken about before but can’t seem to find it. I only turn my Lumagen on when using my projector so is there a recommended sequence to turn things on. I put the projector on first, then receiver and finally the Lumagen but after a few minutes I get a handshake issue where I lose picture for a couple seconds then it comes back and is good for the rest of the time. I’ve tried different sequences but can’t seem to find a winning formula. I removed the Lumagen from the chain and the loss of picture did not happen so I think it’s to do with switching the Lumagen on.


----------



## 187crew003

Des511 said:


> I seem to remember this being spoken about before but can’t seem to find it. I only turn my Lumagen on when using my projector so is there a recommended sequence to turn things on. I put the projector on first, then receiver and finally the Lumagen but after a few minutes I get a handshake issue where I lose picture for a couple seconds then it comes back and is good for the rest of the time. I’ve tried different sequences but can’t seem to find a winning formula. I removed the Lumagen from the chain and the loss of picture did not happen so I think it’s to do with switching the Lumagen on.


I use the same sequence as you but add a 15 second delay before the lumagen comes on to allow the PJ warm up sequence to complete. no issues here


----------



## roxiedog13

187crew003 said:


> I use the same sequence as you but add a 15 second delay before the lumagen comes on to allow the PJ warm up sequence to complete. no issues here


Apparently you figured out the magic formula which changes depending on your equipment in the cabinet. It was a total PITA for a long time until I figured out the delicate sequence for start up, knowing which component to start first and delays necessary had to be figured out, at first I believed it was the HDMI cables until others shared these very same problems. I used a Harmony Hub combined with iPad to set up each memory preset sequence, took quite a while and a lot of patience. Once you get it set up though it rarely drops, although I would still get the odd audio drop as I recall. It's certainly far from perfect and a bit of a juggling act, but once you can figure out the sequences of start up all is ok. Now, a/b testing was a nightmare, switching back and forth would definitely cause issues, to do this I had to completely remove the Lumagen otherwise it was torture. 

Happy you managed to figure it out, after two years of absence I had completely forgotten those buggy inherent issues that should not exist for high end consumer products.


----------



## 187crew003

and such is life of HDMI


----------



## Luckie

Apart from 'Source Direct ' can anyone recommend any other settings for Oppo 203 / 5348 ? 

~M~


----------



## fatherom

Luckie said:


> Apart from 'Source Direct ' can anyone recommend any other settings for Oppo 203 / 5348 ?
> 
> ~M~


Color Space: 422
Bit Depth: Auto
Resolution: Source Direct
Audio: bitstream, dynamic range OFF


----------



## Luckie

fatherom said:


> Color Space: 422
> Bit Depth: Auto
> Resolution: Source Direct
> Audio: bitstream, dynamic range OFF


Many Thanks ! For some reason I'm not hitting the heights of the Panasonic 9000 in the same system and I had always used the recommended Oppo settings previously and they were fine .

~M~


----------



## Izza1984

Hi room, I have a question I’m in the process of making a home theater room. I have the Jvc rs3000, panamorph dcr, trinnov 16. I was wondering is a lumagen needed in my set up? If so how can I benefit from it with the setup I have.?


----------



## HTRaleigh

Izza1984 said:


> Hi room, I have a question I’m in the process of making a home theater room. I have the Jvc rs3000, panamorph dcr, trinnov 16. I was wondering is a lumagen needed in my set up? If so how can I benefit from it with the setup I have.?


I have the JVC RS3000, Panamorph DCR and Lumagen Pro. The advantage the Lumagen gives you if set up properly is the quick switching from one aspect ratio to the next when switching sources or content within a source. I'd highly recommend checking with Kris Deering at Deep Dive. He set up my RS3000 and did the Lumagen programming. He sent the programmed file to Jim at Lumagen and they loaded the file to my new Lumagen before shipping it to me. Kris is a Lumagen programming master and is arguably the very best video calibrator in the country. He has this exact PJ/DCR/Lumagen setup in his own home theater. I highly recommend both getting the Lumagen Pro and using Kris to calibrate or setup your system. In addition to the ease of use and auto aspect switching the Lumagen has the best scaling and color accuracy in the business. The JVC does a nice job, but once you add the DCR for a constant height 2:40 screen you really need the Lumagen to tie it all together. It will work without the Lumagen, just not nearly as well. This is especially true if you have other family members that are not as adept as you in doing all the changes manually.

This is my third Lumagen I've owned over the last almost 20 years and it really isn't home theater without it.


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> I am excited Kaleidescape now allows the OSD output at 24 Hertz. I have been asking for this since the Radiance intro in 2007. Their animation is targeted at 60 (or 50) Hertz, and so is not as smooth at 24 Hertz (which is why they were hesitant to add this), but I am fine with that. I have turned off cover art animation for the OSD which is a feature they added after I had made the request a couple years ago. However, I know not everyone will like the new 24 Hertz OSD output mode, but I am thrilled Kaleidescape has added it for those of us who do want the OSD at 24 Hertz.
> 
> If you set the Strato OSD output to 24 Hertz, and 2.35 aspect, you can use the recent "Graphics Flag" Radiance Pro feature to select a different memory that has Auto-Aspect turned off for the OSD, and manually select 2.35 for this memory so the OSD always is 2.35. If you do a Save after selecting 2.35 as the input aspect for this memory, it will be remembered after a power off.
> 
> You would enable the "report graphics flag" feature in the Strato, *enable the new "use graphics flag" feature in the Radiance Pro*, and then set the "Other" input memory for the Strato input to select a different input memory, but the same 24 Hertz output memory you want for 24 Hertz content. Then disable Auto-Aspect in the memory used for the OSD and enable it in the memory used for content.
> 
> Make sure to do a Save.
> 
> 
> On the Pro menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Type, set the Graphic Flag Use setting to 'Use'. Now when the Kaleidescape is in it's menu the Pro will detect and use the graphics flag and classify the input mode as 'Other' (instead of 4k60). *So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode**.* The Pro will now stay in the same 24Hz output mode when Kaleidescape changes between 60Hz menu and 24Hz movies but still allow the Pro to change to a 60Hz mode when 60Hz videos are played*.*


Is the main advantage of this change to the K OSD (and recent Lumagen flag update) to reduce syncing and drop outs with K and a Lumagen by eliminating the 60Hz OSD and making all 24Hz? Or what is the real advantage of this change for users if not syncing, etc?

I have delayed sync times with my K, Lumagen, Trinnov.

Thanks for your help!

I am trying to follow this procedure this but am not a 'power user' and don't want to screw up my calibration . What exactly are the step by step menu changes I put in *bold *above? Where in the menu is 'enable graphics flag'? Adding the new memory is also not familiar to me. Thanks for the step by step spoon feeding to get this [email protected]!

have a tutorial video of the whole process for setting up this flag?? 

Thanks so much!


----------



## SJHT

garyolearysteele said:


> Thanks for the info. On the game dev front, things are improving and modern games and TV’s are adopting HGIG, I have a few that do and they have been the better ones.
> 
> HGIG info here if you haven’t seen it, it’s an attempt to get devs to all sing from a the same hymn sheet and match output to display capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hgig.org/doc/ForBetterHDRGaming.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> When using a HGIG game, you can use the system calibration tools to set the max and min luminance, they use a different terminology (Max Tone Mapped Luminance or similar), this seems to line up with MaxCLL. Setting the lumagen to have a forced MaxCLL of 1000 gives the result you’d expect with 14 clicks on the test pattern (which sets the the output to 1000nits Max).
> 
> The theory is that this should output content as if it’s mastered at 1000 nits.
> 
> I could just as easy use 4000, or even go the other way for a lower value. Is there a benefit to one way or the other for supported games that give you the choice ? Is there an ideal Max luminance for your DTM calculations?
> 
> For anyone who is interested, there are some videos on using the Xbox and PS5 calibration tools when DTM is in play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tldr version; To set it to 1000nits, go all the way to lowest then do 13 clicks up on PS5, 14 clicks on Xbox. For the black level, he recommends going all the way down to 0nits.
> 
> The debug menu should be useful to see if a game is following system settings or outputting something higher than it should be.


Anyone successful in setting up an Xbox Series X? Not quite sure how to use the HDR calibration setup process that the console provides beyond the video mentioned.


----------



## jrp

Concerning the stale frame on an aspect switch:

Neither Patrick or I can figure out how this could be happening. So we have a request.

If you have this "Stale image on aspect change" and are willing to send your streamer to us for a couple days (with instruction on how to reproduce the issue) so Patrick can see the issue here, we may be able to get this sorted. We would need your config file as well.

If you want this fixed (and assuming it is in the Pro), and you are willing to send us your unit that shows the issue (we pay shipping both ways), please email lumagen.com support.

=== 

We do have an nVidea Shield here. So an alternative is someone helps Patrick load and setup Cody, and helps find a case that shows the issue.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Concerning the stale frame on an aspect switch:
> 
> Neither Patrick or I can figure out how this could be happening. So we have a request.
> 
> If you have this "Stale image on aspect change" and are willing to send your streamer to us for a couple days (with instruction on how to reproduce the issue) so Patrick can see the issue here, we may be able to get this sorted. We would need your config file as well.
> 
> If you want this fixed (and assuming it is in the Pro), and you are willing to send us your unit that shows the issue (we pay shipping both ways), please email lumagen.com support.
> 
> ===
> 
> We do have an nVidea Shield here. So an alternative is someone helps Patrick load and setup Cody, and helps find a case that shows the issue.


I did one variant of it with AppleTV4k, I can try and document a complete recipe later.


----------



## jrp

Random comment of the day:

The recommended power on order is:

Projector/TV
Wait 10 to 20 seconds for projector/TV HDMI circuits to become active
Radiance Pro
Wait 5 seconds for Pro HDMI circuits to become active
Audio processor
Sources

You may be able to power everything on at the same time as we do in the Lumagen Demo theater. However, if you have issues at power on, the above order has proven to be the best for most systems.


----------



## woofer

jrp said:


> Random comment of the day:
> 
> The recommended power on order is:
> 
> Projector/TV
> Wait 10 to 20 seconds for projector/TV HDMI circuits to become active
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for Pro HDMI circuits to become active
> Audio processor
> Sources
> 
> You may be able to power everything on at the same time as we do in the Lumagen Demo theater. However, if you have issues at power on, the above order has proven to be the best for most systems.


I have always initiated the start-up like this and it has proved to be 100% successful..


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> Random comment of the day:
> 
> The recommended power on order is:
> 
> Projector/TV
> Wait 10 to 20 seconds for projector/TV HDMI circuits to become active
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for Pro HDMI circuits to become active
> Audio processor
> Sources
> 
> You may be able to power everything on at the same time as we do in the Lumagen Demo theater. However, if you have issues at power on, the above order has proven to be the best for most systems.


I use this sequence order with different timing and it’s the best way to run my room every thing works great .. Thanks Jim for this advice solve a lot of problem I have 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aguy

Thanks for looking at this. 

I’m actually located in Australia so that request isn’t that easy. 

But I think one of us had the issue with an nvidia shield right ? As they have said if they can give you the exact recipe may you can replicate it that way. 

I am willing to help in any way that I can I’m just not sure that sending a streamer from Australia is the simplest way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tysonrocky

Question - I recently had a Sony 715ES installed and some other AV work in my Theater Room. I picked up a Lumagen 4449 on AVS Forum and it installed as recommended from Lumagen with all inputs to Lumagen and one "out" to AV (Arcam 550) and the second to the PJ. It is also connected to a Control 4 so when I press the "watch" button all devices come on and Lumagen wakes from standby mode. However, the actual Lumagen remote is not now working since we embedded in the Control 4. Any ideas as to why?


----------



## bobof

Tysonrocky said:


> Question - I recently had a Sony 715ES installed and some other AV work in my Theater Room. I picked up a Lumagen 4449 on AVS Forum and it installed as recommended from Lumagen with all inputs to Lumagen and one "out" to AV (Arcam 550) and the second to the PJ. It is also connected to a Control 4 so when I press the "watch" button all devices come on and Lumagen wakes from standby mode. However, the actual Lumagen remote is not now working since we embedded in the Control 4. Any ideas as to why?


Is the control4 module turning off IR? That is an option for RS232 gear. Also the IR in on the rear panel I believe disables the front IR sensor.


----------



## Tysonrocky

bobof said:


> Is the control4 module turning off IR? That is an option for RS232 gear. Also the IR in on the rear panel I believe disables the front IR sensor.


I'm not sure as I just asked the fellow to connect so I could start everything with one press. I decided to experiment with some aspect ratio changes last night and realized the actual remote was no longer working. I will check into the IR as you suggest. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Tysonrocky

bobof said:


> Is the control4 module turning off IR? That is an option for RS232 gear. Also the IR in on the rear panel I believe disables the front IR sensor.


This is an IR from the Lumagen to the Control 4. When I unplugged from the Lumagen the remote worked so it must be disabling as you suggested. It appears I may need to disable whenever I want to use the remote which is suboptimal unless there is another solution.


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> The recommended power on order is:
> 
> Projector/TV
> Wait 10 to 20 seconds for projector/TV HDMI circuits to become active
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for Pro HDMI circuits to become active
> Audio processor
> Sources


Works perfect


----------



## bobof

Tysonrocky said:


> This is an IR from the Lumagen to the Control 4. When I unplugged from the Lumagen the remote worked so it must be disabling as you suggested. It appears I may need to disable whenever I want to use the remote which is suboptimal unless there is another solution.


Your control4 programmer could send the IR commands over the serial port, or you could use an IR emitter to the sensor on the Lumagen instead of the wired IR jack to the rear.

The wired IR in disabling front IR forcibly is a little annoying on these. Most gear I've had leaves them both enabled or provides an option to disable one or the other. Only a small issue to be fair.

I just use an emitter for my Harmony setup.


----------



## SJHT

Tysonrocky said:


> This is an IR from the Lumagen to the Control 4. When I unplugged from the Lumagen the remote worked so it must be disabling as you suggested. It appears I may need to disable whenever I want to use the remote which is suboptimal unless there is another solution.


I’ve always thought the IR should be software selectable (front, back, both), but maybe the hardware doesn’t support that option. If you switch to RS232 control you can use the front IR (assuming Control 4 has that option).


----------



## blake

SJHT said:


> I’ve always thought the IR should be software selectable (front, back, both), but maybe the hardware doesn’t support that option. If you switch to RS232 control you can use the front IR (assuming Control 4 has that option).


Agreed ! I wonder if this could be implemented by a firmware update. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## garyolearysteele

SJHT said:


> Anyone successful in setting up an Xbox Series X? Not quite sure how to use the HDR calibration setup process that the console provides beyond the video mentioned.


Overall, I’d say disable HDR in the console settings. I’ve compared lots of content and in the vast majority of cases the non-hdr image is the best bet. For HDR, the recommendations from the HDTVTest videos seem good to me. Set MaxCLL to 1000 in the pro, use the calibration tools to do lowest for black level and 14 clicks up from darkest for max luminance.

HGIG compatible games like CoD: Cold War, other well mastered games like Gears of War 5 all look great but it’s hard to tell a difference vs SDR in most cases. In some dark scenes you see more detail but that might not be what that content creator intended. In Last of Us 2 you see more detail in dark scenes but doesn’t look quite right, e.g. highlights like light shining off the characters hair seem too bright and unnatural compared to the SDR scene. 

Overall I’d say there may be some benefits especially at near black level, but some games look really shocking, it may well be the games that are at fault but whatever the reason... disabling HDR seems to be the best bet. Unlike movies you have the flexibility to have a proper 4K SDR presentation. The only thing you’re missing out on would be the wider color gamut, but then I’m not sure how much difference that will make on current projectors.

Just my observations, I’m not an expert but since I don’t think there are too many gamers on here I thought I’d reply


----------



## Technology3456

Can anyone tell me the exact Lumagen model that can do DYNAMIC tonemapping of 4K HDR UHD onto 1080p SDR devices? We cant talk price openly or specifically but I heard awhile back, new, it was somewhere between five and ten... but now it's 2021, and I wonder, specifically used trade in from a dealer, something like that, if it can be found for one to two used?

I basically want the 4k dynamic tonemapping onto 1080p feature that madvr does, but in a processor. I don't even know what model to put in the search.


----------



## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> Can anyone tell me the exact Lumagen model that can do DYNAMIC tonemapping of 4K HDR UHD onto 1080p SDR devices? We cant talk price openly or specifically but I heard awhile back, new, it was somewhere between five and ten... but now it's 2021, and I wonder, specifically used trade in from a dealer, something like that, if it can be found for one to two used?
> 
> I basically want the 4k dynamic tonemapping onto 1080p feature that madvr does, but in a processor. I don't even know what model to put in the search.


Any of the Radiance Pro models can do this when properly setup. And I don't think you'll find any Radiance Pro for that range ($1-2K). Also, any Pro model bought used has no warranty (warranty is 1 year from original purchase).


----------



## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> Any of the Radiance Pro models can do this when properly setup. And I don't think you'll find any Radiance Pro for that range ($1-2K). Also, any Pro model bought used has no warranty (warranty is 1 year from original purchase).


Thanks for the info.

That's a great point about warranty. 

This is probably just too high end for me. I changed my budget to get a lot more "mid range" but this is one of those "high end" items that is still probably not going to find its way into my H/T. But it's a very nice processor and the people who have it have a good one.


----------



## sunnya23

I have a sony 1100ES 4k blu ray player plugged into the Lumagen. I just realized that I have 4k upscaling turned ON in the video menu. Should I have this turned OFF for when I'm watching 1080 blu rays and just let the Lumagen do the upscaling?


----------



## Kris Deering

sunnya23 said:


> I have a sony 1100ES 4k blu ray player plugged into the Lumagen. I just realized that I have 4k upscaling turned ON in the video menu. Should I have this turned OFF for when I'm watching 1080 blu rays and just let the Lumagen do the upscaling?


yes. Sony players usually have a setting called direct for output resolution in the settings menu.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> I’ve always thought the IR should be software selectable (front, back, both), but maybe the hardware doesn’t support that option. If you switch to RS232 control you can use the front IR (assuming Control 4 has that option).


The disabling of the front panel remote is from a 2003 design, and I have never seen that it needs to be changed. Note that it cannot be changed in the software.

If you use the wired IR, then you can supplement with a Xantech IR repeater. I do this in our family room. The Harmony elite blaster sends IR to the Xantech IR receiver. The Xantech IR receiver can receive commands from the Lumagen remote since it faces into the room. I actually sticky tape the Harmony Elite blaster on top of the Xantech IR receiver. Works great and allows you to send IR to any of your gear with its own remote remote control while still using IR from your control system.

RS232 control of the Lumagen is a better option, and how we control the Radiance Pro in the Lumagen Demo Theater. In this case I still use a Xantech IR repeater since the Radiance Pro and other gear is in a cabinet. The Xantech allows IR control of the various pieces of kit using their remotes while the cabinet doors are closed.


----------



## sunnya23

Kris Deering said:


> yes. Sony players usually have a setting called direct for output resolution in the settings menu.


Thank you Kris. Unfortunately in my video output resolution setting there is only Auto. So I ended up just turning 4k upscaling OFF


----------



## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> Any of the Radiance Pro models can do this when properly setup. And I don't think you'll find any Radiance Pro for that range ($1-2K). Also, any Pro model bought used has no warranty (warranty is 1 year from original purchase).


What about a much cheaper processor than even what I mentioned that would just be for scaling? Something that can do a quality job switching 16:9 projection to 2.35:1 to 2.4:1 etc, but does however little else is necessary to have it cost quite a little, just a specialty scaler box for constant image height basically. What are the least expensive ones you know of released the last 5-10 years?

If it helps you to think of recommendations that could actually exist at a low price and not just be fantasy, I only need it to be able to process 1080p signals, not 4K. It would be a scaler for 1080p projection, not 4K. So in other words, it could have been released in 2007, or 2010, so even if it had the price of _two _Lumagen Radiance Pro's back then, it might fit what I'm looking for perfectly now as far as price and features.


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> What about a much cheaper processor than even what I mentioned that would just be for scaling? Something that can do a quality job switching 16:9 projection to 2.35:1 to 2.4:1 etc, but does however little else is necessary to have it cost quite a little, just a specialty scaler box for constant image height basically. What are the least expensive ones you know of released the last 5-10 years?
> 
> If it helps you to think of recommendations that could actually exist at a low price and not just be fantasy, I only need it to be able to process 1080p signals, not 4K. It would be a scaler for 1080p projection, not 4K. So in other words, it could have been released in 2007, or 2010, so even if it had the price of _two _Lumagen Radiance Pro's back then, it might fit what I'm looking for perfectly now as far as price and features.


The Radiance 2143 is still in production and accepts up to 1080p60, and can scale output up to 4k60 8-bit 4:2:0. It has eight inputs, two outputs, and has the Lumagen NoRing(TM) scaling, edge enhancements (using the GF9450), and Darbee DVP(TM). It can do constant-height aspect ratio control for anamorphic screens. It also support a 21-point 1D LUT, and 4913 points for 3D LUT calibration. The Radiance 2143 retails for $2995. You can send questions to lumagen.com sales.


----------



## sunnya23

I was trying to play Gemini Man 4k blu ray and it wouldn't trigger HDR. When I hit the info button my 4k blu ray player was showing the output to be 4k/60 SDR. Is this an issue with the Lumagen or the Sony vw5000? I see there is an option for Deep Color HDMI in my video settings for the 4k blu ray player? Do I need to turn this on or would it cause further problems?


----------



## MOberhardt

sunnya23 said:


> I was trying to play Gemini Man 4k blu ray and it wouldn't trigger HDR. When I hit the info button my 4k blu ray player was showing the output to be 4k/60 SDR. Is this an issue with the Lumagen or the Sony vw5000? I see there is an option for Deep Color HDMI in my video settings for the 4k blu ray player? Do I need to turn this on or would it cause further problems?


Maybe you have something on 444 rather than 422 and the display can't handle 444 60p


----------



## sunnya23

MOberhardt said:


> Maybe you have something on 444 rather than 422 and the display can't handle 444 60p


So I tried messing around with some video settings in the 4k blu ray player. If I switch Dolby Vision to ON, I get 1080/60 HDR. Not sure what else to do, maybe something I can do in the Lumagen settings perhaps?


----------



## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> I was trying to play Gemini Man 4k blu ray and it wouldn't trigger HDR. When I hit the info button my 4k blu ray player was showing the output to be 4k/60 SDR. Is this an issue with the Lumagen or the Sony vw5000? I see there is an option for Deep Color HDMI in my video settings for the 4k blu ray player? Do I need to turn this on or would it cause further problems?


Do you have 18G input cards on your Radiance Pro? You'd need 18G inputs for 4K [email protected] from a source device typically.


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> Do you have 18G input cards on your Radiance Pro? You'd need 18G inputs for 4K [email protected] from a source device typically.


Ooohhh. Great question. I'll have to see if I have those inputs and if so, how many and whether my 4k blu ray player is plugged into one of those inputs


----------



## MOberhardt

sunnya23 said:


> So I tried messing around with some video settings in the 4k blu ray player. If I switch Dolby Vision to ON, I get 1080/60 HDR. Not sure what else to do, maybe something I can do in the Lumagen settings perhaps?


Your display definitely support full bandwidth dv? If you turn off dv do you get 4k hdr? I do recall hearing this was a problem with some displays.


----------



## SBHT2002

SBHT2002 said:


> I’m trying to take advantage of the new firmware update from Kscape with Cinemascape and the OSD flag.
> 
> I have everything set and OSD flag is auto selecting the Other mode. MemA is set to auto aspect ratio and MemB is set auto aspect off and 2.35.
> 
> How do I get the Other mode to auto select MemB and 4K mode to select MemA? What am I missing?
> 
> Thank you


I still have not figured this out. It would be great to just have the Lumagen select 2.35 Aspect when Graphics Flag is On, instead of having to mess with memories.


----------



## Kris Deering

SBHT2002 said:


> I still have not figured this out. It would be great to just have the Lumagen select 2.35 Aspect when Graphics Flag is On, instead of having to mess with memories.


Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. You shouldn't have to do anything with the graphics flag with the new update.


----------



## SBHT2002

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. You shouldn't have to do anything with the graphics flag with the new update.


Auto Aspect does not recognize the Kscape OSD in 2.35 reliably in my system. I'm trying to follow Jim's recommendation.

"If you set the Strato OSD output to 24 Hertz, and 2.35 aspect, you can use the recent "Graphics Flag" Radiance Pro feature to select a different memory that has Auto-Aspect turned off for the OSD, and manually select 2.35 for this memory so the OSD always is 2.35. If you do a Save after selecting 2.35 as the input aspect for this memory, it will be remembered after a power off.

You would enable the "report graphics flag" feature in the Strato, enable the new "use graphics flag" feature in the Radiance Pro, and then set the "Other" input memory for the Strato input to select a different input memory, but the same 24 Hertz output memory you want for 24 Hertz content. Then disable Auto-Aspect in the memory used for the OSD and enable it in the memory used for content.

Make sure to do a Save."


jrp said:


> I am excited Kaleidescape now allows the OSD output at 24 Hertz. I have been asking for this since the Radiance intro in 2007. Their animation is targeted at 60 (or 50) Hertz, and so is not as smooth at 24 Hertz (which is why they were hesitant to add this), but I am fine with that. I have turned off cover art animation for the OSD which is a feature they added after I had made the request a couple years ago. However, I know not everyone will like the new 24 Hertz OSD output mode, but I am thrilled Kaleidescape has added it for those of us who do want the OSD at 24 Hertz.
> 
> If you set the Strato OSD output to 24 Hertz, and 2.35 aspect, you can use the recent "Graphics Flag" Radiance Pro feature to select a different memory that has Auto-Aspect turned off for the OSD, and manually select 2.35 for this memory so the OSD always is 2.35. If you do a Save after selecting 2.35 as the input aspect for this memory, it will be remembered after a power off.
> 
> You would enable the "report graphics flag" feature in the Strato, enable the new "use graphics flag" feature in the Radiance Pro, and then set the "Other" input memory for the Strato input to select a different input memory, but the same 24 Hertz output memory you want for 24 Hertz content. Then disable Auto-Aspect in the memory used for the OSD and enable it in the memory used for content.
> 
> Make sure to do a Save.


----------



## Kris Deering

Haven't had a single issue with the new OSD in mine, and I'm not using the graphics flag. Wonder if it is a settings issue.


----------



## wjchan

Kris Deering said:


> Haven't had a single issue with the new OSD in mine, and I'm not using the graphics flag. Wonder if it is a settings issue.


Are you using list view or cover view?


----------



## jrp

SBHT2002 said:


> Auto Aspect does not recognize the Kscape OSD in 2.35 reliably in my system. I'm trying to follow Jim's recommendation.
> 
> [SNIP]


Ignore my recommendation. It does not work like I thought initially since the Strato "Graphics Flag" selected "Other" and no way to make this have Auto Aspect turned off (only) for the OSD.

I have discussed adding a new "Graphics Flag" mode with Patrick and hope to add it soon. 

The new feature I am requesting is to allow the Graphics Flag being active to select a specific aspect ratio (16:9 or 2.35, with auto aspect off while the Graphics Flag is asserted). This is easy to setup, and allows either a 16:9 or a 2.35 OSD.


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> Haven't had a single issue with the new OSD in mine, and I'm not using the graphics flag. Wonder if it is a settings issue.


I found a bug using the new 24 Hertz Strato OSD coming back to the OSD.

If 1080i content was playing on a Terra server (but not the Strato), with OSD set to 24 Hertz, and the Graphics Flag output enabled in the Strato, sometimes coming back to the OSD would not show a picture. In this case the Radiance Pro Info Screen would show a bizarre input resolution caused by the way the Strato output changed. Not sure why having the Strato set to enable the Graphics Flag output was necessary to have the bug, but it was.

To be clear the Strato output change is fine and the bug was in the Radiance Pro for this not before seen case.

Pat has a fix for this and it will be in the the next release.


----------



## Kris Deering

wjchan said:


> Are you using list view or cover view?


Cover. Not really a fan of list view personally. Feels like it takes away a lot of the reason for having a K system.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I’ve been using MadVR on my HTPC for a while with a JVC RS520 and Prismasonic lens.

i will be picking up a lumagen 4444 soon and look forward to setting it up.

with madvr and my projector I had it send a command to the projector based on content to set the correct picture mode 709/2020.

what’s the best option for the lumagen? I’ve had my projector professionally calibrated.

I read somewhere you can set the lumagen to output the rec709 in the BT2020 colour space so there is no need to change mode on projector.

anyone have experience with this. Does it work well or am I best still running seperate profiles?


----------



## sunnya23

Does anyone have a shield tv pro running in their system? If so, for the upscaling, which option do you choose? AI Upscaling, Enhanced, or Basic? I'm assuming Basic, as we want the Lumagen doing as much of the upscaling as possible?


----------



## bjorg

sunnya23 said:


> Does anyone have a shield tv pro running in their system? If so, for the upscaling, which option do you choose? AI Upscaling, Enhanced, or Basic? I'm assuming Basic, as we want the Lumagen doing as much of the upscaling as possible?


Correct. And I use match resolution when available.


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> Do you have 18G input cards on your Radiance Pro? You'd need 18G inputs for 4K [email protected] from a source device typically.


So I just checked the back of the Lumagen and all inputs are 18G inputs. I believe the sony vw5000es also has 18G inputs. So maybe the HDMI cable, although I believe that is capable of 18G as I get 4k HDR from it with all my other 4k 24Hz blu rays. Is there something maybe in my source settings in Lumagen that I would have to activate or that I could check?


----------



## jrp

sunnya23 said:


> So I just checked the back of the Lumagen and all inputs are 18G inputs. I believe the sony vw5000es also has 18G inputs. So maybe the HDMI cable, although I believe that is capable of 18G as I get 4k HDR from it with all my other 4k 24Hz blu rays. Is there something maybe in my source settings in Lumagen that I would have to activate or that I could check?


Some Sony VW5000ES's have issues, especially the earlier units, at 18 GHz. Some seem fine (Lon just told me his VW5000ES works great, without any dropouts, using his Radiance Pro 5348, but another system has HDCP issues with an early VW5000ES, although this problem system has had HDCP issues with 4XXX units).

We generally suggest using a 9 GHz output card to a Sony VW5000ES. Better function and IMO no change in image due to the excellent dither on the Radiance Pro output.

The Radiance Pro also has a feature that was added specifically for the VW5000ES. It is called "Reduce Max" and reduces the blanking for 4k60 18 GHz, so that the clock rate is about 17 GHz. Video data is unchanged, only the blanking time is reduced. This is in the Output Style0 under HDMI Setup. Note that "Reduce Max" is a non-standard timing, and most other products will not work if it is set. If you use Reduce Max, for the audio output make sure it is "audio only" (it will be if from an 18 GHz output card), due to the non standard video timing.

For a Sony VW5000ES I strongly recommend a Tributaries UHDV "Vega" fiber, even is you only need to go 2 or 3 meters from the Pro to the VW5000ES.

Other than that contact us a lumagen.com support and we can try to help.


----------



## dlinsley

When the sharpening / upscaling firmware came out in September, I recall it being mentioned that downscaling improvements were still to be made. Has that happened already, or is it still planned? I've no complaints with the current downscale needed for non-scope 4k content (I'm assuming 1080p content is scaled up just once and not up to 4k then down to aspect) with my DCR lens, just wondering if it's going to be even better in future


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> When the sharpening / upscaling firmware came out in September, I recall it being mentioned that downscaling improvements were still to be made. Has that happened already, or is it still planned? I've no complaints with the current downscale needed for non-scope 4k content with my DCR lens, just wondering if it's going to be even better in future


We have completed some of the work on the pipeline enhancements which will include improvements to downscaling. However, they are not in the current software and it could be a while before they are added into a release.


----------



## Surge2018

SoulOfUniverse said:


> I don't know anyone who uses all remotes individually ) for instance I have about 10 remotes from all the equipment, and everyone will use universal remote I use Harmony Hub and very happy with everything, worth every buck in that case all my individual remotes are hidden away in the box ) I might use it only when I perform calibration ))
> 
> Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


Actually, I use individual remotes. I find it far easier to find what I need and faster - I can control 2 devices with a remote in each hand. All you need is volume once you’re watching anyway...
and for music ultra high end amps and vinyl don’t have remotes either


----------



## Surge2018

PeterLarsson said:


> Make sure that your turn of rate match in ATV, otherwise you will be left with for example 4k SDR for menus and stuff but a resync will happen if you start a HDR moove, just put ATV in 4K HDR.


You do not want ATV set to HDR! It will convert all content to HDR! Set ATV to 4K SDR, and you’ll find it will output HDR when content is in HDR.

On another note, I find that the ATV‘s upscaling from 1080P to 4K is very good, better (to my eye) than the Radiance Pro (default settings). What do you guys think?


----------



## Surge2018

sandyj said:


> Thrang one of my concerns is handshaking issues with the Lumagen in the path seems to be the curse of projector users what was the HDMI fixer device you are referring to ?


Using the Sony 995ES, the little brother to the 5000, and have not had any handshake issues. That’s with the Lumagen connected directly to the Sony using a Tributaries 1.5 or 2m cable.

I am getting my 5348 unit soon, and I’m curious if I’ll notice a video and audio quality difference. My 4XXX unit has an upgraded power supply (Teddy Pardo) and everything is powered by the PS Audio P20 AC regenerator. Cleaner input AC reduces jitter, so I’m curious if the 5348’s further reduction will be noticeable.


----------



## sunnya23

jrp said:


> Some Sony VW5000ES's have issues, especially the earlier units, at 18 GHz. Some seem fine (Lon just told me his VW5000ES works great, without any dropouts, using his Radiance Pro 5348, but another system has HDCP issues with an early VW5000ES, although this problem system has had HDCP issues with 4XXX units).
> 
> We generally suggest using a 9 GHz output card to a Sony VW5000ES. Better function and IMO no change in image due to the excellent dither on the Radiance Pro output.
> 
> The Radiance Pro also has a feature that was added specifically for the VW5000ES. It is called "Reduce Max" and reduces the blanking for 4k60 18 GHz, so that the clock rate is about 17 GHz. Video data is unchanged, only the blanking time is reduced. This is in the Output Style0 under HDMI Setup. Note that "Reduce Max" is a non-standard timing, and most other products will not work if it is set. If you use Reduce Max, for the audio output make sure it is "audio only" (it will be if from an 18 GHz output card), due to the non standard video timing.
> 
> For a Sony VW5000ES I strongly recommend a Tributaries UHDV "Vega" fiber, even is you only need to go 2 or 3 meters from the Pro to the VW5000ES.
> 
> Other than that contact us a lumagen.com support and we can try to help.


Thank you for the very detailed response Jim. If I have any further questions regarding this issue I'll make sure to contact through support.


----------



## swarm87

Stupid question,I'm looking into upgrading my current short throw projector to the upcoming benq tk700sti and was looking into a 4242 for calibration and tone mapping but am wondering if it would be overkill for my setup.


----------



## desray2k

Guys, can I check whether you experience a strong "red push" for this 4K title? For other titles, I have no problem...only this particular title (Lucy 4K in HDR) seems to have a very strong "red" hue. Let me give an example - some actor's ears or cheeks have a rosy red hue in some scenes otherwise, everything is spot on - e.g. skin tones are perfect, superb clarity, and incredible details. This is really weird. As mentioned, my other 4K HDR titles have *no *such problem, hence it cannot be my calibration issue. By the way, I'm using Sony VW995ES as my display. My source is using a Zidoo Z9X media player.

*Update: *
*Issue with the "red push" resolved. A mistake on my part when selecting the color intensity on the CIE chart. Should have selected 100% instead of 75% which is meant for HDR10 calibration when I'm actually doing SDR2020, hence the color inaccuracy. Case closed.*


----------



## A7mad78

Just got my hand on xbox series X to replace my PS4 first time into xbox and hope it be great such ps4 do 

any recommendations to setup the xbox or my same setup that made for PS4 will be ok of course 120FPS is not my reach as using in projector any help will be thankful 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

I found that my Xbox can’t recognized my projector handle to HDR 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Surge2018

garyolearysteele said:


> Hey,
> 
> I’ve been experimenting with this since I had the lumagen installed, my experience is that HDR gaming with DTM is a mixed bag.
> 
> On the one hand, some games resolve shadow detail better with HDR, I’m not 100% sure if what I’m seeing is the creators intent, but games like Resident Evil: Maiden demo on PS5, Call of Duty: Cold War, in like for like scenes I can see more detail in dark areas, whereas it’s crushed in SDR. This can be resolved with in game brightness but raises all blacks.
> 
> On the other hand, some games look really terrible and the only solution I’ve found is to play it with HDR disabled. One example of this is Medium on Xbox Series X, early parts of the game didn’t seem to be affected, but many scenes later on seem to almost trigger a bug in DTM and look far too bright and washed out. You can see this on the title screen of the Medium. On PlayStation games like the Man of Medan and Little Hope look like you’ve maxed out the brightness (all these games support HDR). Setting Max Light to 1000 (from 240) makes it look something close to what it should, but this then makes other scenes too dark.
> 
> I was settled on disabling HDR on the gaming consoles, I’m using a Sony v760es and outputting SDR709 to enable the native colour space (col2) anyway.. however it does seem that recently some games haven’t properly graded blacks in SDR (see digitalfoundry videos on Maiden and Dirt5).
> 
> Note also that usually the Xbox and PS5 don’t send MaxCLL, I’ve set mine to 1000, this looks to be what they are expecting based on the defaults of various calibration screens.
> 
> I may drop lumagen support an email, though gaming may not be their core focus so it may well be something they don’t pick up. It does seem like it causes some problems for DTM since even in badly affected games it’s not every scene (though there aren’t too many “scenes” that have scene cuts). Jim did mention a known issue with 60hz HDR a while back, but not what the issue was.
> 
> I’d be interested to know if others have found a solution to get the best picture. I’ll try grab some examples, though taking pictures with an IPhone doesn’t always show what you want it to show.


I use DTM with great results. Using XBOX Series X and PS 5 - Lumagen set to game mode on. I have not touched Genlock, it’s at the default. Projector is the Sony 995ES.
Lumagen is set to output HDR as HDR - I switch image modes on the Sony depending on whether the source is HDR or SDR. DTM looks great on COD: Cold War, Spider Man, Assassin’s Creed, NBA 2K1, Mortal Kombat.
I think it’s important for the console to detect that your display is HDR.


----------



## fatherom

Surge2018 said:


> I use DTM with great results. Using XBOX Series X and PS 5 - Lumagen set to game mode on. I have not touched Genlock, it’s at the default. Projector is the Sony 995ES.
> Lumagen is set to output HDR as HDR - I switch image modes on the Sony depending on whether the source is HDR or SDR. DTM looks great on COD: Cold War, Spider Man, Assassin’s Creed, NBA 2K1, Mortal Kombat.
> I think it’s important for the console to detect that your display is HDR.


If the Lumagen is taking in HDR from the consoles, and sending HDR to the projector, doesn't that imply that tone mapping isn't going on at all?


----------



## garyolearysteele

Surge2018 said:


> I use DTM with great results. Using XBOX Series X and PS 5 - Lumagen set to game mode on. I have not touched Genlock, it’s at the default. Projector is the Sony 995ES.
> Lumagen is set to output HDR as HDR - I switch image modes on the Sony depending on whether the source is HDR or SDR. DTM looks great on COD: Cold War, Spider Man, Assassin’s Creed, NBA 2K1, Mortal Kombat.
> I think it’s important for the console to detect that your display is HDR.


Have you compared HDR from the console to the same game, same scene with HDR disabled? I’ve done this across PS5 and Xbox Series X and posted some comparison shots for a case where it didn’t work out. Had I not gone in search for the best image I’d say it looks fine, maybe even great, but on balance I’d say the SDR is the best image in most cases in my setup (Sony vw760es). As I said previously, some games have had near black and gamma level issues in SDR which look slightly better in HDR (which is actually DTM and output as SDR in my case)

If you’re outputting HDR->HDR are you actually using DTM ? Also if a game is SDR on PS5 and you have HDR enabled it’s never output as SDR it’s always a HDR image that is converted (badly) by the PS5, wasn’t the case with PS4 but is with PS5 for some reason...

In my case, I’ve found it to be often a non issue with games looking identical, so if I can avoid DTM and get the same outcome I’d always go that way, reduced lag overhead, removes the possibility of a DTM misfire due to some obscure scene (if you can call it that).

For me the one reason to use HDR would be of the SDR image has a problem, this may well be a thing now based on a few recent examples, I’m still experimenting, as it stands to my eyes the SDR output looks better, with some exceptions, sometimes the HDR images looked atrocious so I’ve defaulted to SDR and try HDR with HGIG titles, CoD Cold War for example, which is one that I think looks better in HDR


----------



## desray2k

desray2k said:


> Guys, can I check whether you experience a strong "red push" for this 4K title? For other titles, I have no problem...only this particular title (Lucy 4K in HDR) seems to have a very strong "red" hue. Let me give an example - some actor's ears or cheeks have a rosy red hue in some scenes otherwise, everything is spot on - e.g. skin tones are perfect, superb clarity, and incredible details. This is really weird. As mentioned, my other 4K HDR titles have *no *such problem, hence it cannot be my calibration issue. By the way, I'm using Sony VW995ES as my display. My source is using a Zidoo Z9X media player.


Answer my own post...dialed down the Red Color in Color Decoder setting to -30 and that did the trick.


----------



## bjorg

desray2k said:


> Answer my own post...dialed down the Red Color in Color Decoder setting to -30 and that did the trick.


I meant to check this out, you didn't share any timecodes for scenes. If you do, I'm happy to compare to my experience.


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> Answer my own post...dialed down the Red Color in Color Decoder setting to -30 and that did the trick.


Lucy looks great on my setup, JVC x7900 and a Radiance Pro. It would be very rare to need to do anything in Colour decoder options. If you have colour that is massively off it would sound to me like you may have some configuration issue.


----------



## MOberhardt

Does the Lumagen do anything with 50i material? I watched a Blu Ray today which unfortunately was 50i, oppo, source direct, and it was a horrific job of deinterlacing.


----------



## desray2k

bobof said:


> Lucy looks great on my setup, JVC x7900 and a Radiance Pro. It would be very rare to need to do anything in Colour decoder options. If you have colour that is massively off it would sound to me like you may have some configuration issue.


Not massively off...just a slight red-push. I'm using HDR BT2020 set to "Always On" and BT709 <> BT2020 set to "Auto Convert". Are you using SDR2020 with HDR flag set to "Off" or "On"?


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> Not massively off...just a slight red-push. I'm using HDR BT2020 set to "Always On" and BT709 <> BT2020 set to "Auto Convert". Are you using SDR2020 with HDR flag set to "Off" or "On"?


So you're always outputting HDR BT2020 gamma from the Radiance? Is there some reason you're doing this? 

There are only a couple of scenarios where you really would want to do that:
1) Some TVs (LG?) will not output full brightness unless they receive an image that is encoded with PQ gamma / BT 2020.
2) Some projectors (Benq?) will not reach their furthest capabilities of colour gamut unless they are told input signal is PQ gamma / BT 2020.

In doing this with the VW995ES you will effectively be doing tone mapping both in the projector and in the radiance Pro. It's a bad idea.

For what it's worth, I'm doing neither. I have a 3DLUT calibrated for P3, and set my output the SDRP3. But if I didn't do that, the next choice would be SDR2020. I don't use the HDR flag as though it can be useful to switch modes in a JVC projector, it's not as useful as you'd think (as the mode list it can switch to is very limited) and it exposes some bugs in at least some JVC projectors around iris positions which can result in bad noises and maybe physical damage.

Instead my control system (a raspberry Pi) switches projector modes for me between SDR and HDR content.


----------



## Surge2018

Technology3456 said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> That's a great point about warranty.
> 
> This is probably just too high end for me. I changed my budget to get a lot more "mid range" but this is one of those "high end" items that is still probably not going to find its way into my H/T. But it's a very nice processor and the people who have it have a good one.


It’s hard to say what price you’ll find one for used. I would not worry about warranty - there are no moving parts inside, other than the fan (which will likely not fail for 10,000 hours or more and is easy to replace). The support is outstanding from Lumagen. 
Many owners will likely be upgrading to the 5XXXX model, so it could be a good time to buy a pre-owned Radiance Pro this year!


----------



## Surge2018

fatherom said:


> If the Lumagen is taking in HDR from the consoles, and sending HDR to the projector, doesn't that imply that tone mapping isn't going on at all?


Yes, sorry, what I meant was that the consoles are outputting HDR, DTM is on. The projector is getting SDR in 2020.

The game titles I have tried all look great with HDR set to on in the console/games and DTM on.

I suggest setting your XBOX or PS5 to use HDR, which it should detect by default anyway, then adjust the brightness and contrast as directed on the console (keeping in mind the caveats when doing this with DTM on, per Vincent’s YouTube video (posted above).

I have not done a comparison with and without DTM enabled, as it just looks great to me with DTM on.


----------



## Technology3456

Surge2018 said:


> It’s hard to say what price you’ll find one for used. I would not worry about warranty - there are no moving parts inside, other than the fan (which will likely not fail for 10,000 hours or more and is easy to replace). The support is outstanding from Lumagen.
> Many owners will likely be upgrading to the 5XXXX model, so it could be a good time to buy a pre-owned Radiance Pro this year!


Thanks!! What model # do you recommend for the HDR dynamic tonemapping onto 1080p that I might be able to find from people upgrading?


----------



## bobof

Any 4xxx unit can do it. If you're doing HDR 4k down to 1080p then you can probably use a unit with either 9G or 18G outputs, but for HDR in with maximum flexibility you ideally want 18G inputs. How far up the model range you go depending only really on how many inputs you want to switch via the Radiance, and whether 2 outputs or 4 are needed.

The 1U units are a simpler design with less boards but the same functionality for like for like model numbers, plus take up less rack space, so they'd be my pick of the crop I think.


----------



## Technology3456

bobof said:


> Any 4xxx unit can do it. If you're doing HDR 4k down to 1080p then you can probably use a unit with either 9G or 18G outputs, but for HDR in with maximum flexibility you ideally want 18G inputs. How far up the model range you go depending only really on how many inputs you want to switch via the Radiance, and whether 2 outputs or 4 are needed.
> 
> The 1U units are a simpler design with less boards but the same functionality for like for like model numbers, plus take up less rack space, so they'd be my pick of the crop I think.


Are there 1U and other U versions of each model number, or specific model numbers are 1U and others arent? Im not familiar with them. If you know the exact numbered models you would recommend, I would just start searching those exactly.


----------



## jrp

On interlaced sources:

If you have a source at 1080i, 480i, or 576i, and you think the image looks bad, it is possible the source is sending the top and bottom fields in the wrong order. This has not been as big an issue lately but I have one 1080i source that I thought looked bad. As soon as I set the "Flip Fields" bit to compensate for this source error the 1080i looked as good as I would expect.

This is in:

*MENU -> Input -> In Configs -> [Resolution] -> [#] ->* *Control ->* *Deinterlace -> Field*

Make sure to Save the change if it helps.

Note that many interlaced sources output the fields in the correct order. For example DirecTV boxes output the interlaced fields in the correct order.


----------



## bobof

Technology3456 said:


> Are there 1U and other U versions of each model number, or specific model numbers are 1U and others arent? Im not familiar with them. If you know the exact numbered models you would recommend, I would just start searching those exactly.


All the 42xx models are 1U. They only have max 2 outputs (18G video + separate audio, or 2x 9G video/audio). There was also a compact version in a stubby can case. 4240 and 4242 are the common models.

The 44xx models have all been available in 2U (originally) and then 1U, except the 4449 unit with matrix built in, which was only 2U. 44xx have 4 outputs.


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> On interlaced sources:
> 
> If you have a source at 1080i, 480i, or 576i, and you think the image looks bad, it is possible the source is sending the top and bottom fields in the wrong order. This has not been as big an issue lately but I have one 1080i source that I thought looked bad. As soon as I set the "Flip Fields" bit to compensate for this source error the 1080i looked as good as I would expect.
> 
> This is in:
> 
> *MENU -> Input -> In Configs -> [Resolution] -> [#] ->* *Control ->* *Deinterlace -> Field*
> 
> Make sure to Save the change if it helps.
> 
> Note that many interlaced sources output the fields in the correct order. For example DirecTV boxes output the interlaced fields in the correct order.


Thanks I'll try that for that disc. It was 1080i 50


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> Are there 1U and other U versions of each model number, or specific model numbers are 1U and others arent? Im not familiar with them. If you know the exact numbered models you would recommend, I would just start searching those exactly.


The original Radiance Pro 444X models were in a 2U case.

For manufacturing, and fan noise level improvement, we now sell the Radiance Pro 444X, and 4242, models only in the "1U case" style.

We use a 60 mm fan with a max speed of 2500 RPM in the 1U case, and used a 35 mm fan with a max speed of 7500 RPM in the 2U case. The dB rating on the 60 mm fan is about half that of the 35 mm fan. So the noise level in the 1U case is significantly less than the 2U case. While the 2U case was not very noisy in my opinion, we had customers ask us to reduce the noise level further, and so decided to switch to the 1U design. I think the 1U case with the fan running at normal speed is very quiet.

==== 

The I/O in the 42XX and 44XX series are configurable. We do have a few "pre-configured" options. The most common are:

Radiance Pro 4242+: Two 18G in, two 9G in, two 9G out
Radiance Pro 4242-18G: Four 18G in, one 18G out, one audio only out
Radiance Pro 4246+: Six 18G in, two 9G in, two 9G out
Radiance Pro 4246-18G: Eight 18G in, one 18G out, one audio only out

Note the 4242 has a maximum of four inputs. You must initially buy the 4244, 4246, 4444, or 4446, to be able to have more than four inputs.


----------



## Technology3456

jrp said:


> The original Radiance Pro 444X models were in a 2U case.
> 
> For manufacturing, and fan noise level improvement, we now sell the Radiance Pro 444X, and 4242, models only in the "1U case" style.
> 
> We use a 60 mm fan with a max speed of 2500 RPM in the 1U case, and used a 35 mm fan with a max speed of 7500 RPM in the 2U case. The dB rating on the 60 mm fan is about half that of the 35 mm fan. So the noise level in the 1U case is significantly less than the 2U case. While the 2U case was not very noisy in my opinion, we had customers ask us to reduce the noise level further, and so decided to switch to the 1U design. I think the 1U case with the fan running at normal speed is very quiet.
> 
> ====
> 
> The I/O in the 42XX and 44XX series are configurable. We do have a few "pre-configured" options. The most common are:
> 
> Radiance Pro 4242+: Two 18G in, two 9G in, two 9G out
> Radiance Pro 4242-18G: Four 18G in, one 18G out, one audio only out
> Radiance Pro 4246+: Six 18G in, two 9G in, two 9G out
> Radiance Pro 4246-18G: Eight 18G in, one 18G out, one audio only out
> 
> Note the 4242 has a maximum of four inputs. You must initially buy the 4244, 4246, 4444, or 4446, to be able to have more than four inputs.





bobof said:


> All the 42xx models are 1U. They only have max 2 outputs (18G video + separate audio, or 2x 9G video/audio). There was also a compact version in a stubby can case. 4240 and 4242 are the common models.
> 
> The 44xx models have all been available in 2U (originally) and then 1U, except the 4449 unit with matrix built in, which was only 2U. 44xx have 4 outputs.


Thanks a million guys. I will look for all those models and see what comes up. First time I remembered to do it, I will use the "bookmark" function on your posts!


----------



## Sittler27

Has anyone had any luck connecting and upgrading firmware on a RP with a macbook running bootcamp windows mode?


----------



## nbynw

Sittler27 said:


> Has anyone had any luck connecting and upgrading firmware on a RP with a macbook running bootcamp windows mode?


I have no issues using a macbook pro and parallels


----------



## bearcat2002

Sittler27 said:


> Has anyone had any luck connecting and upgrading firmware on a RP with a macbook running bootcamp windows mode?


Yep, works like a charm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Technology3456

If anyone upgraded from a low model that does HDR DTM onto 1080p devices, and is looking for a home for the low model, please feel free to contact me as I am looking for a HDR DTM onto 1080p solution, and the choice is either this or a $1,000 PC to do madvr.


----------



## 187crew003

Thing about lumagens. There isn’t a low model. They all do the exact same thing. It just depends on how many Inuits and outputs they have.
But occasionally on eBay and here in the classifieds you can find them for around $3500 used


----------



## MDesigns

187crew003 said:


> Thing about lumagens. There isn’t a low model. They all do the exact same thing. It just depends on how many Inuits and outputs they have.
> But occasionally on eBay and here in the classifieds you can find them for around $3500 used


There is the new highend 5xxx-series and people have upgraded to it, so some could call 4xxx a low model


----------



## Sittler27

nbynw said:


> I have no issues using a macbook pro and parallels


I have not tried Parallels, only bootcamp.



bearcat2002 said:


> Yep, works like a charm.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On bootcamp I can't seem to connect on any port I try. I'm using a USB-C to USB-A adapter as my macbook pro only has 2 USB-C ports.


----------



## 187crew003

MDesigns said:


> There is the new highend 5xxx-series and people have upgraded to it, so some could call 4xxx a low model


Understood. But they are so new. Also I think the OP was referring to a true low model in the $1k arena


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> Understood. But they are so new. Also I think the OP was referring to a true low model in the $1k arena


Can't see anyone in their right mind parting with one for anything like that little for a device that is still basically current.
Two hopes, one of them is Bob.


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> Can't see anyone in their right mind parting with one for anything like that little for a device that is still basically current.
> Two hopes, one of them is Bob.


Agreed. That’s why I said there is no low end 

I did have an agreement to buy one on here for $1500. But pretty sure I was getting scammed. I sent the money through PP and he kept delaying shipping. Eventually I asked for a refund and he sent it immediately which is weird. But at least I didnt get burnt


----------



## Killroy

His budget expectations for what he wants are completely unreasonable and unattainable. We have tried to explain this to him but for some reason he does not want to listen.

This hobby is not cheap if you want higher end results.


----------



## mindedc

Killroy said:


> His budget expectations for what he wants are completely unreasonable and unattainable. We have tried to explain this to him but for some reason he does not want to listen.
> 
> This hobby is not cheap if you want higher end results.


Just a warning. 

I spent a lot of energy trying to answer his questions in a private thread. He is trying to do some sort of dual passive 3d projection system with older 1080P DLP projectors and wants to introduce warping to have the square image map to a curved screen with the stacked projectors. The stacked projectors are supposed to still be in alignment after all of this. I tried to tell him what a pain it is and he needs a PJ with subpixel alignment for that sort of thing, which I'm pretty sure means not DLP. I think he also wants to color correction (3dlut) and do DTM at the same time on top of all that. I have relentlessly tried to explain the costs involved and that much of what he wants are not products that were ever really combined in that way so it's a science project at best. He did start looking into using A lenses for "warping" the video to fit a curved screen and was looking for matching used, dirt cheap lenses which are expensive and rare in qty 1 much less qty 2. Good luck trying to stack two projectors and two lenses on a curved screen. I know it can but done but way back in the day stacking CRT projectors was nightmareish and with CRT you can significantly adjust the convergence...I would never do it again. Good luck to him but he's going to have to make compromises.

To Technology: This is all meant with peace and love. Good luck to you sir, I do genuinely hope you get your dream system built.


----------



## mindedc

Sittler27 said:


> I have not tried Parallels, only bootcamp.
> 
> 
> On bootcamp I can't seem to connect on any port I try. I'm using a USB-C to USB-A adapter as my macbook pro only has 2 USB-C ports.


A few things I've noticed:

The USB serial adapters are not all created equally. I used many cheapies for years and was fine (I do lots of serial for my day job), seems like quality has gone down pretty bad. The one that is simultaneously the ugliest ever made and the best performer is the keyspan by triplite: https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-K...11787&sprefix=triplite+usb+ser,aps,177&sr=8-3

Yes, you will actually shed a tear if you plug this stylisticly 1980s radioshack inspired atrocity into your svelte mac, but they do work better than most, have supported drivers, and work at the highest baud rate reliably.

You may also try another serial cable. Again, these aren't what they used to be. I have an old school 3com router null modem console cable I use because its built properly. You may have to visit the dusty RS-232 section of a local electronics shop. You want a 9 pin female to female null modem cable. There is a guy in there that has the resistor color codes memorized and can direct you to a well built serial cable that's been keeping the shelf pinned to the floor for 20 years.

Before you invest $27 on that thing, you may try hard power cycling your Lumagen. You will need to power it on with the remote after the hard power cycle. Sometime the first firmware update I attempt after reboot wont work and I have to run the update utility again. This usually fixes it when mine won't take an upgrade.

I promise it works. I've upgraded my 4242 at least a dozen times. Even for someone that uses a serial cable almost every day at work (networking hardware) its a bit finicky. Supposedly you can connect directly to the USB port and upload the code there but I've never gotten that to work, even with my hardware windows desktop. I have quite a few USB serial drivers thanks to the many serial products I use that came with their own special USB to serial adapter so it could be a driver problem with my windows machine. I also use a serial control system so I don't want to fiddle with USB vs RS-232 being active so I stick to the RS-232.


----------



## sjschaff

Sittler27 said:


> I have not tried Parallels, only bootcamp.
> 
> 
> On bootcamp I can't seem to connect on any port I try. I'm using a USB-C to USB-A adapter as my macbook pro only has 2 USB-C ports.


"I can't seem to connect" isn't telling us precisely what you are actually seeing? First, in Windows, is the Device Manager seeing a COM port? If not, have you installed the necessary virtual device drivers for the RP's serial/usb connection? That may be your problem. At a lower level, it may be that the USB-C to USB-A adapter isn't working as advertised. Before loading up Windows see if MacOS "sees" the USB "electrically" via About this Mac...System Report...USB. I'd think that's the first thing to check.


----------



## sor

I used a boot camp Windows as well, with the USB cable that was included in the Lumagen box. It showed up as a new serial port and worked fine.


----------



## bjorg

mindedc said:


> Just a warning.
> 
> I spent a lot of energy trying to answer his questions in a private thread. He is trying to do some sort of dual passive 3d projection system with older 1080P DLP projectors and wants to introduce warping to have the square image map to a curved screen with the stacked projectors. The stacked projectors are supposed to still be in alignment after all of this. I tried to tell him what a pain it is and he needs a PJ with subpixel alignment for that sort of thing, which I'm pretty sure means not DLP. I think he also wants to color correction (3dlut) and do DTM at the same time on top of all that. I have relentlessly tried to explain the costs involved and that much of what he wants are not products that were ever really combined in that way so it's a science project at best. He did start looking into using A lenses for "warping" the video to fit a curved screen and was looking for matching used, dirt cheap lenses which are expensive and rare in qty 1 much less qty 2. Good luck trying to stack two projectors and two lenses on a curved screen. I know it can but done but way back in the day stacking CRT projectors was nightmareish and with CRT you can significantly adjust the convergence...I would never do it again. Good luck to him but he's going to have to make compromises.
> 
> To Technology: This is all meant with peace and love. Good luck to you sir, I do genuinely hope you get your dream system built.


Ooh! 🤓 I want to do something similar, but different! I have 4K LED wall that supports 3D via two 60 Hz DisplayPort streams that get combined together by the controller. I would love to upscale the 1080p image for each eye to 4K and then emit it over DisplayPort. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears!


----------



## bjorg

To clarify, the 3D is already working now thanks the flexible output timings on the Lumagen, which converts the frame packed signal to frame sequential over HDMI (+ a custom 3D sync signal port), but it's still just 1080p without any upscaling, which makes it look a bit unrefined at this screen size.


----------



## Technology3456

MDesigns said:


> There is the new highend 5xxx-series and people have upgraded to it, so some could call 4xxx a low model


Yeah sorry I know very little about it. I am going to go the more complicated, but budget route, barring a really good deal on a 4xxx, basically. So yeah, the 4xxx ones were what I was talking about without knowing it so much, so to speak.


----------



## Technology3456

mindedc said:


> Just a warning.
> 
> I spent a lot of energy trying to answer his questions in a private thread. He is trying to do some sort of dual passive 3d projection system with older 1080P DLP projectors and wants to introduce warping to have the square image map to a curved screen with the stacked projectors. The stacked projectors are supposed to still be in alignment after all of this. I tried to tell him what a pain it is and he needs a PJ with subpixel alignment for that sort of thing, which I'm pretty sure means not DLP. I think he also wants to color correction (3dlut) and do DTM at the same time on top of all that. I have relentlessly tried to explain the costs involved and that much of what he wants are not products that were ever really combined in that way so it's a science project at best. He did start looking into using A lenses for "warping" the video to fit a curved screen and was looking for matching used, dirt cheap lenses which are expensive and rare in qty 1 much less qty 2. Good luck trying to stack two projectors and two lenses on a curved screen. I know it can but done but way back in the day stacking CRT projectors was nightmareish and with CRT you can significantly adjust the convergence...I would never do it again. Good luck to him but he's going to have to make compromises.
> 
> To Technology: This is all meant with peace and love. Good luck to you sir, I do genuinely hope you get your dream system built.


Thanks. I can see why it looks this way to you, but as you said I have been spending a lot of time researching it and maybe I learned some things you aren't aware of that would help you see my project differently.

- For projector stacking, DLP is the recommended technology because it emits unpolarized light, and because its motion survives the crosstalk and so on the best. So just because it doesnt have pixel to pixel alignment, it is still the recommended to use. Your belief that only projectors with subpixel alignment are recommended for double stacking is logical, because then you could align the images 100% exactly, but not correct ultimately despite this because it turns out that is only one aspect of stacking projectors. Many people have claimed to have great results with stacking DLP projectors even without warping, let alone warping.

- Warping allows you to align the pixels, pixel by pixel. Obviously it can't process the image fast enough if you custom moved every single pixel on screen, but it has a high enough maximum number to let you align the problem areas pixel by pixel, or "grid by grid" at least (which sounds like the same thing, pixel grids). So that will allow me to do what you're talking about as well, even though it's not necessary. I just talked to someone who does a double stack, with two A lenses, and doesn't even warping. He says on the corners of the image it's not 100% aligned, but it works great. Apparently the brain sort of interprets or predicts what we're seeing, rather than seeing exactly what "is," so it corrects for slight alignment issues by itself, for example, because only one eye is seeing each image so as long as they're close enough, the brain assumes they were in the same place, or something like that. Probably not as healthy as if it's perfect, but it works well for people and they dont get headaches or eye strain from that. But I will use warping to try to get it perfect because I have sensitive eyes.

- The projectors I'm using come with some of the best CMS software so I dont have to get 3d lut separately. I lucked out with that.

- I already found lenses for sale, but haven't bought them because they're priced much higher than prior sales I saw of the same lenses. I think your price estimates for lenses were the very high end of what they sell for, or maybe sold for a few years ago. Hopefully I will find them at my price.

-


> Good luck trying to stack two projectors and two lenses on a curved screen. I know it can but done but way back in the day stacking CRT projectors was nightmareish and with CRT you can significantly adjust the convergence.


The curved screen is the one thing I haven't figured out yet, that is for sure. So you got me there. Barely anyone uses one let alone with A lenses and double stacked projectors, so it hasn't been easy to find anyone who can tell me about it. Your comment here is the first one to say it would be harder to align projectors on a curved screen than not. I know the A lenses themeslves make it more difficult, but with warping I think that part should work fine. The curved screen aspect is the big variable. To be clear, are you aware warping is not just something to curve the image, it also allows you to move the grid around on screen? So each projector is projecting a grid, and you are trying to align them. With warping, you can keep 75% of the image the same, but move specific parts of the grid left, right, up, down, etc, to align the image. It's hard to find the boxes that will do that, and only the used ones from 10 years ago are "cheap," but I am going to have a box that can do it so I think if you had been aware of that when I talked to you about the project, you would have felt differently about the subpixel alignment problem and so on.

So yeah, the warping should still make it possible to align with A lenses. As I said, there is even someone doing it without warping. But the curved thing, I have no idea. That is the last big outstanding puzzle to solve, along with a few small issues, like how many movies are in 16:9 vs 2.35:1. If I cant solve it, I just wont do curved.

Also as I said, the projectors I have have a great CMS, and they are one chip projectors, but I may use 3 chip ones instead, and they would have the same great CMS. Just to clear that up before commenting on the convergence thing, meaning, currently, with single chip, there is no chip convergence issue. But if I do use 3 chip instead, is it possible you are attributing CRT convergence issues to 3 chip DLP? Are you 100% certain that is at all the same? With CRTs you have to converge them at home. With 3 chip DLP, you cant even change it at home. You need to send it to repair. Either you have a unit in good condition, which is already converged well, and you are good to go, or you dont, and you need to send it to repair. So obviously if I have a bad unit, it's not going to work. The project assumes that the gear I get will actually be working correctly. If not, then of course any project will fall on its face.

So when you keep bringing up the difficulty of converging 3 chip DLP, or having to converge 6 chips together if I want the stack to work, that is a problem with CRT, I dont think it applies to 3 chip DLP. So, there are a number of things with my project that may be different than you perceived, and maybe you can see why I think it's possible to do now after all.


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## mindedc

Technology3456 said:


> Also as I said, the projectors I have have a great CMS, and they are one chip projectors, but I may use 3 chip ones instead, and they would have the same great CMS. Just to clear that up before commenting on the convergence thing, meaning, currently, with single chip, there is no chip convergence issue. But if I do use 3 chip instead, is it possible you are attributing CRT convergence issues to 3 chip DLP? Are you 100% certain that is at all the same? With CRTs you have to converge them at home. With 3 chip DLP, you cant even change it at home. You need to send it to repair. Either you have a unit in good condition, which is already converged well, and you are good to go, or you dont, and you need to send it to repair. So obviously if I have a bad unit, it's not going to work. The project assumes that the gear I get will actually be working correctly. If not, then of course any project will fall on its face.
> 
> So when you keep bringing up the difficulty of converging 3 chip DLP, or having to converge 6 chips together if I want the stack to work, that is a problem with CRT, I dont think it applies to 3 chip DLP. So, there are a number of things with my project that may be different than you perceived, and maybe you can see why I think it's possible to do now after all.


Glad you found resolution to most of your challenges. 

To clarify, when I am speaking of sub-pixel alignment, that's being able to do what you are calling warping of the image to mate two chip based projectors. I wasn't referring to internal alignment. My point with CRT is that it WAS inherently possible to move any point on the grid by several inches(!!) on the projected surface and get a perfect alignment. You can't do that with LCOS, DILA, DLP, LCD etc... You get a few subpixels to correct. That's it. You need it optically 99% aligned at center then tweak the corners in with subpixel. While in 3d mode you can get away with a little misalignment because each eye is seeing a different image and your brain is gluing it together. When you're in 2d mode it's going to be pretty rough if you don't have it aligned. You have multiple planes to get the projector aligned to the screen over a long distance. It's a pain. For commercial there are projectors that can keystone the corners individually etc and it's less of an issue because you're farther from the image than in a home environment but your approach has been on a very tight budget with older home gear. 

Also, RE price on lenses. If you look at prices on the lenses, there was a drop in the price of the lenses a while back because it looked like they weren't needed for CIH because the newer projectors were coming out with a lot more lumens and you could just do zoom mode with lens memory. Shortly after that, HDR became a thing and a lot of people were trying to max out brightness and the prices went back up. I know I was doing exactly that and pulled my sale listing after I realized I would need the lens to get max brightness. I've been watching for an ISCOIII for a while to upgrade. I passed on some for $1200 during the "market lull". I even saw one of the less popular brands given away for free at that time. I would have had to have sold my Panamorph at a massive loss at that time (if it would have sold). You still see them go cheap every now and then but you need two identical ones...hard enough to find one. Perhaps I'm completely wrong here but those are my observations. 

Again, peace and love.


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## Technology3456

edit: sent over pm instead


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## SJHT

Maybe this need it’s own thread..... SJ


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## Craig Peer

I sure am glad I'm not into 3D or stacked projectors - makes life simpler. By the way - the Lumagen is working amazing. It's so nice to just turn on my RS4500, watch a movie - knowing it will look excellent whether 4K or 1080p, and never have to futz with things or make any adjustments ( also thanks to Kris Deering's excellent calibration ).


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## bearcat2002

Delete this post please.


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## desray2k

bobof said:


> In doing this with the VW995ES you will effectively be doing tone mapping both in the projector and in the radiance Pro. It's a bad idea.


Thanks for the response. Truly appreciated. But why did you say there is a “duo” DTM happening at my Projector even though Radiance Pro is doing the DTM?


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## bobof

desray2k said:


> Thanks for the response. Truly appreciated. But why did you say there is a “duo” DTM happening at my Projector even though Radiance Pro is doing the DTM?


You said you are outputting HDR2020 to the projector. if you are doing that, then the signal is encoded with PQ gamma, which usually means the projector has to tone map to display it. As PQ gamma goes from 0 to 10000 nits absolute which good though the Sony laser is, it isn't going to hit (unless you're projecting 5" diagonal).

So the projector will have to decide which nits range of the input signal to map to the panel range, and what curve to apply to that.

In nearly all common situations, the "correct" output setting is SDR2020 (or maybe SDR709 or SDRP3). HDR2020 is only for use in very particular circumstances I believe.


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## Technology3456

SJHT said:


> Maybe this need it’s own thread..... SJ





Craig Peer said:


> I sure am glad I'm not into 3D or stacked projectors - makes life simpler. By the way - the Lumagen is working amazing. It's so nice to just turn on my RS4500, watch a movie - knowing it will look excellent whether 4K or 1080p, and never have to futz with things or make any adjustments ( also thanks to Kris Deering's excellent calibration ).


Seriously. My head is going to spin completely off my neck before I even get a chance to watch it. If you are buying everything new, and you have the time needed to research what you need and then just get it, I think it's not as bad as people think to set it up, but if you are trying to match equipment from an always in flux used market, it is really difficult. Especially when you guess wrong what screen size you will want, and buy projectors that maybe aren't bright enough for the actual size you need, and all sorts of other complications.

I'm getting there though... slowlllllllly.


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## desray2k

bobof said:


> You said you are outputting HDR2020 to the projector. if you are doing that, then the signal is encoded with PQ gamma, which usually means the projector has to tone map to display it. As PQ gamma goes from 0 to 10000 nits absolute which good though the Sony laser is, it isn't going to hit (unless you're projecting 5" diagonal).
> 
> So the projector will have to decide which nits range of the input signal to map to the panel range, and what curve to apply to that.
> 
> In nearly all common situations, the "correct" output setting is SDR2020 (or maybe SDR709 or SDRP3). HDR2020 is only for use in very particular circumstances I believe.


Ok thanks...I've just re-did my calibration and it is working fine now. I think I know why I didn't get it right the first time. I did not select the color intensity correctly on my Chromapure s/w which resulted in the "red-push". Now I'm using SDR2020 with HDR flag on. All is good and dandy now.


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## bobof

desray2k said:


> Ok thanks...I've just re-did my calibration and it is working fine now. I think I know why I didn't get it right the first time. I did not select the color intensity correctly on my Chromapure s/w which resulted in the "red-push". Now I'm using SDR2020 with HDR flag on. All is good and dandy now.


I didn't think the HDR flag was useful on the Sony projectors (it is indicated predominantly for use with JVC projectors because of a particular bit of functionality they have around mode switching with this flag). 

Chromapure isn't a brilliant 3DLUT solution because of the way it iteratively chips away at the LUT rather than mathematically deriving a best fit LUT based on a display profile (which is how every other 3DLUT SW on the market now works).

All these things I guess amount to nothing if you're happy with the image, but to me they hint at potential for untapped performance gains either you or an experienced calibrator may be able to extract.

Anyway, enjoy your system


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## PeterLarsson

I have the Sony VW790 - and I send SDR2020 from Lumagen. Contrary to JVC you cant receive HDR into the Sony and at the same time have all the "tone mapping" or enhancer turned off. So in that sake the Lumagen tone mapped content will be tone mapped/HDR enhanced again by Sony - and that is something that we DONT want .


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I have the Sony VW790 - and I send SDR2020 from Lumagen. Contrary to JVC you cant receive HDR into the Sony and at the same time have all the "tone mapping" or enhancer turned off. So in that sake the Lumagen tone mapped content will be tone mapped/HDR enhanced again by Sony - and that is something that we DONT want .


Thanks, I thought that might be the case but I don't have one to check.


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## desray2k

bobof said:


> Chromapure isn't a brilliant 3DLUT solution because of the way it iteratively chips away at the LUT rather than mathematically deriving a best fit LUT based on a display profile (which is how every other 3DLUT SW on the market now works).


I hope Tom Huffman can take in your comments and come up with a better 3D Lut calibration for his s/w soon


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## bobof

desray2k said:


> I hope Tom Huffman can take in your comments and come up with a better 3D Lut calibration for his s/w soon


Maybe, I don't know how important it is to him, I don't think the underlying technique has ever changed in it, though I migrated off Chromapure pretty early on in my calibration journey - I was given a 2.0 license with a pair of meters I bought second hand, and I did buy the Lumagen add-on, as well as the upgrade to 3.0, from the UK distributor. It was a nice interface for manual calibration, but the 3DLUT stuff always left me a bit dissatisfied.

The approach it takes seems to be one of iteratively changing the LUT points and looking for measured improvements in dE, then moving on to next point, etc. It seems to be driven particularly by measured dE, which is a bit problematic (dE doesn't have direction, just magnitude, so you can end up with the hue twisting and turning through the LUT just because one or other adjustment results in a bit lower dE at a given point).

And then you can't actually re-process the measurements into another LUT as the LUT was created during the measurements (so if you wanted to experiment with P3 vs 20202 LUTS etc you need to do another measurement session).


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## desray2k

bobof said:


> Maybe, I don't know how important it is to him, I don't think the underlying technique has ever changed in it, though I migrated off Chromapure pretty early on in my calibration journey - I was given a 2.0 license with a pair of meters I bought second hand, and I did buy the Lumagen add-on, as well as the upgrade to 3.0, from the UK distributor. It was a nice interface for manual calibration, but the 3DLUT stuff always left me a bit dissatisfied.
> 
> The approach it takes seems to be one of iteratively changing the LUT points and looking for measured improvements in dE, then moving on to next point, etc. It seems to be driven particularly by measured dE, which is a bit problematic (dE doesn't have direction, just magnitude, so you can end up with the hue twisting and turning through the LUT just because one or other adjustment results in a bit lower dE at a given point).
> 
> And then you can't actually re-process the measurements into another LUT as the LUT was created during the measurements (so if you wanted to experiment with P3 vs 20202 LUTS etc you need to do another measurement session).


Thanks for sharing your views about the 3D LUT calibration segment of the chromapure s/w. I hope Tom can chip in to give his comments on these points you’ve just mentioned. I believe Tom will seek to improve his s/w if the feedbacks are constructive.


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## sunnya23

I ran into an issue with my Lumagen recently. I was toggling "match content color space" on my Nvidia shield tv. All of a sudden my Sony vw5000es blanked and I wasn't getting any source signals to display. Ended up power cycling the projector and my inputs were showing again. However, now whenever an HDR signal is recognized I get a very dim image coming through. It's not getting bright like it used to before. Essentially I don't see any difference in the brightness between SDR and HDR like I used to. I saw that there was a fix for dark HDR with the latest Lumagen firmware update. I installed the firmware update, however I'm still getting a very dim picture in HDR. On Lumagen it is saying HDR, however I'm not getting the increase in brightness like I used to see it do before. Has anyone encountered this problem? Are there any troubleshooting steps I could be doing for this?


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## desray2k

sunnya23 said:


> I ran into an issue with my Lumagen recently. I was toggling "match content color space" on my Nvidia shield tv. All of a sudden my Sony vw5000es blanked and I wasn't getting any source signals to display. Ended up power cycling the projector and my inputs were showing again. However, now whenever an HDR signal is recognized I get a very dim image coming through. It's not getting bright like it used to before. Essentially I don't see any difference in the brightness between SDR and HDR like I used to. I saw that there was a fix for dark HDR with the latest Lumagen firmware update. I installed the firmware update, however I'm still getting a very dim picture in HDR. On Lumagen it is saying HDR, however I'm not getting the increase in brightness like I used to see it do before. Has anyone encountered this problem? Are there any troubleshooting steps I could be doing for this?


What's your output settings?, Colorspace for 4K content? By default DTM should be turned on whenever a HDR signal is intercepted by the Radiance Pro.


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## sunnya23

Output settings is 3840x2160 59.94Hz 422-SDR2020. The thing is, everything seems to be working, it's just that last step where I used to see my projector increase in brightness when it would get into HDR mode, but it's not doing that anymore. The brightness remains the same as SDR


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## desray2k

Did you try to cycle through the colorspace settings to see whether you are able to get back to the initial brightness level for your 4K content? How about other inputs? Say from a 4K UHD 4K blu ray disc? Any change in brightnesss...I hope its not your laser projector.


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## sunnya23

desray2k said:


> Did you try to cycle through the colorspace settings to see whether you are able to get back to the initial brightness level for your 4K content? How about other inputs? Say from a 4K UHD 4K blu ray disc? Any change in brightnesss...I hope its not your laser projector.


I did. Initially when I noticed the dimmer HDR I had to go check my projector settings, and for whatever reason it was now on Colors Space 2 when going into HDR mode. However, I power cycled my projector again and this time it was correctly triggering BT.2020. I also checked my 4k blu ray player. Having the same issue. I have not been able to get it back to initial brightness levels. I think somehow when I toggled off "match content color space" on the shield which ended up blanking the projector and not display any sources it must have triggered something or some setting in the Lumagen. So after the firmware update I uploaded my config as well, but no luck. Still getting this very dim picture in HDR mode.


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## desray2k

sunnya23 said:


> I did. Initially when I noticed the dimmer HDR I had to go check my projector settings, and for whatever reason it was now on Colors Space 2 when going into HDR mode. However, I power cycled my projector again and this time it was correctly triggering BT.2020. I also checked my 4k blu ray player. Having the same issue. I have not been able to get it back to initial brightness levels. I think somehow when I toggled off "match content color space" on the shield which ended up blanking the projector and not display any sources it must have triggered something or some setting in the Lumagen. So after the firmware update I uploaded my config as well, but no luck. Still getting this very dim picture in HDR mode.


Your Radiance Pro HDR flag under colorspace setting turned to "on" even though you using SDR2020. Make sure the output settings for 709 is set at CMS0 and BT2020 set to CMS1. Otherwise, you might want to consider resetting the "Current CMS settings" when output is at CMS1 (assuming you are playing a 4K HDR content). Before that, make sure you copy the CMS1 to say CMS3 (a backup) or either that, make sure you do not click "Save". If resetting the CMS resolve it, you know problem indeed lies with the Radiance Pro, else it may be something else.

Somehow I feel that your DTM is not turned on for your Radiance Pro which likely cause a dimmer image.


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## mhafner

How good is the 1080i50 to 1080p50 deinterlacing with film sources at the moment? I'm watching "The Young Pope" from BD. It's in 1080i50 from a 1080p25 master, as far as I know. When playing via Lumagen it's full of deinterlacing aliasing artifacts. Bias is on film. There is no option to enforce film. Is this caused by the Lumagen or is the source not providing a proper pulldown? Or should I set the Lumagen to output to 1080p25?


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## sunnya23

desray2k said:


> Your Radiance Pro HDR flag under colorspace setting turned to "on" even though you using SDR2020. Make sure the output settings for 709 is set at CMS0 and BT2020 set to CMS1. Otherwise, you might want to consider resetting the "Current CMS settings" when output is at CMS1 (assuming you are playing a 4K HDR content). Before that, make sure you copy the CMS1 to say CMS3 (a backup) or either that, make sure you do not click "Save". If resetting the CMS resolve it, you know problem indeed lies with the Radiance Pro, else it may be something else.
> 
> Somehow I feel that your DTM is not turned on for your Radiance Pro which likely cause a dimmer image.


I checked and 709 is set as CMS0 and BT2020 set as CMS1. I did a factory reset but didn't save, just to see if I would get back to original brightness or if anything would change in general. I didn't really notice any change, although when I went back to my configuration it seemed to get a little brighter? I don't know. But overall I remember the picture being much brighter in HDR than it is now. Right now it feels like I am wearing a dark pair of sunglasses while watching HDR content, whereas before it was very bright and vibrant compared to the SDR image.


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## desray2k

sunnya23 said:


> I checked and 709 is set as CMS0 and BT2020 set as CMS1. I did a factory reset but didn't save, just to see if I would get back to original brightness or if anything would change in general. I didn't really notice any change, although when I went back to my configuration it seemed to get a little brighter? I don't know. But overall I remember the picture being much brighter in HDR than it is now. Right now it feels like I am wearing a dark pair of sunglasses while watching HDR content, whereas before it was very bright and vibrant compared to the SDR image.


Unfortunately that's all I have in terms of advice. You may want to drop Jim Petersen a support email to check with him on this. Hopefully someone else can assist you with your problem and get it resolved soon. Good luck


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## sunnya23

desray2k said:


> Unfortunately that's all I have in terms of advice. You may want to drop Jim Petersen a support email to check with him on this. Hopefully someone else can assist you with your problem and get it resolved soon. Good luck


Thank you for the troubleshooting help. Greatly appreciated. Fingers crossed I get it sorted out soon


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## MDesigns

sunnya23 said:


> I did. Initially when I noticed the dimmer HDR I had to go check my projector settings, and for whatever reason it was now on Colors Space 2 when going into HDR mode. However, I power cycled my projector again and this time it was correctly triggering BT.2020. I also checked my 4k blu ray player. Having the same issue. I have not been able to get it back to initial brightness levels. I think somehow when I toggled off "match content color space" on the shield which ended up blanking the projector and not display any sources it must have triggered something or some setting in the Lumagen. So after the firmware update I uploaded my config as well, but no luck. Still getting this very dim picture in HDR mode.


I'm not expert on Sony's, but isn't Color Space 2 a bright one and BT2020 is with the filter, where you loose ~40% of brightness?


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## sunnya23

MDesigns said:


> I'm not expert on Sony's, but isn't Color Space 2 a bright one and BT2020 is with the filter, where you loose ~40% of brightness?


The thing is, the way the Lumagen and Sony were set up, whenever HDR was triggered in the projector it would be in BT2020 and after a second or two as the last step you would see the overall image increase in brightness.


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## Kris Deering

sunnya23 said:


> The thing is, the way the Lumagen and Sony were set up, whenever HDR was triggered in the projector it would be in BT2020 and after a second or two as the last step you would see the overall image increase in brightness.


HDR should never be triggered in a Sony


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## sunnya23

Maybe I’m wording it wrongly. I’m not exactly sure what is doing the HDR. As I had the entire setup done by dealers and calibrators. When I hit the info button on Lumagen, I see for input HDR, and then output as SDR2020. But essentially the sequence of events that would normally happen whenever playing HDR content, image goes blank, then I hear the lens in the Sony changing, then the 4K image shows up, and finally I see the image “boost” in brightness and look brighter than the SDR image. I’m not getting that “boost” anymore and the image remains very dim.


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## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> Maybe I’m wording it wrongly. I’m not exactly sure what is doing the HDR. As I had the entire setup done by dealers and calibrators. When I hit the info button on Lumagen, I see for input HDR, and then output as SDR2020. But essentially the sequence of events that would normally happen whenever playing HDR content, image goes blank, then I hear the lens in the Sony changing, then the 4K image shows up, and finally I see the image “boost” in brightness and look brighter than the SDR image. I’m not getting that “boost” anymore and the image remains very dim.


Maybe they'd implemented something via the projector or a control system to raise the laser level of the projector. Perhaps the control of the projector is no longer working and it's nothing to do with the Radiance. Best port of call has to be to ask them how they set it up and perhaps they will then be able to help work out what has changed.


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## sunnya23

bobof said:


> Maybe they'd implemented something via the projector or a control system to raise the laser level of the projector. Perhaps the control of the projector is no longer working and it's nothing to do with the Radiance. Best port of call has to be to ask them how they set it up and perhaps they will then be able to help work out what has changed.


I also thought this. But the laser is at maximum as I used to see whenever an HDR source used to play. I saw this statement in a recent software update on lumagen site. “*Fixed issue with static HDR tonemapping powering-on with a dark picture.” 
This seems to be my issue as well.*


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## bobof

sunnya23 said:


> I also thought this. But the laser is at maximum as I used to see whenever an HDR source used to play. I saw this statement in a recent software update on lumagen site. “*Fixed issue with static HDR tonemapping powering-on with a dark picture.”
> This seems to be my issue as well.*


Maybe, though taken at face value, that issue seems to be about static HDR tonemapping, and I'd hope most aren't using static HDR tonemapping anymore (are you?)

It really does sound more like something has changed in your display setup. The trigger sounds like it was you power cycling the projector, which adds weight to perhaps some setting in the projector having changed. 

You have to really go out of your way to save settings changes on the Lumagen - by default they're discarded every time you power cycle, unless you go into the menus and specifically save them. 

However, things are complicated a little as you also changed Lumagen firmware version (though it sounds like this was after it got darker, not before - so a red herring?) Depending on which version of the Lumagen firmware you went from and to, the HDR setup may have changed a bit. The scaling on some of the values did shift at some point, and even whole features have been added (eg you might have been on a really old version without dynamic tone mapping at all). Do you know any more details of exactly how / when it was set up before?


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## Kris Deering

You should not hear any change in the Sony when feeding an SDR2020 signal from a Lumagen. Picture mode should stay exactly the same unless you have an external controller doing something.


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## blake

sunnya23 said:


> Maybe I’m wording it wrongly. I’m not exactly sure what is doing the HDR. As I had the entire setup done by dealers and calibrators. When I hit the info button on Lumagen, I see for input HDR, and then output as SDR2020. But essentially the sequence of events that would normally happen whenever playing HDR content, image goes blank, then I hear the lens in the Sony changing, then the 4K image shows up, and finally I see the image “boost” in brightness and look brighter than the SDR image. I’m not getting that “boost” anymore and the image remains very dim.


I see the overall HDR image get dimmer as well once DTM locks on , with my JVC projector. I believe this is how it’s supposed to work. The overall image will get dimmer, to allow more headroom for specular highlights, depending on your DTM settings. But someone correct me if I’m wrong 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sunnya23

bobof said:


> Maybe, though taken at face value, that issue seems to be about static HDR tonemapping, and I'd hope most aren't using static HDR tonemapping anymore (are you?)
> 
> It really does sound more like something has changed in your display setup. The trigger sounds like it was you power cycling the projector, which adds weight to perhaps some setting in the projector having changed.
> 
> You have to really go out of your way to save settings changes on the Lumagen - by default they're discarded every time you power cycle, unless you go into the menus and specifically save them.
> 
> However, things are complicated a little as you also changed Lumagen firmware version (though it sounds like this was after it got darker, not before - so a red herring?) Depending on which version of the Lumagen firmware you went from and to, the HDR setup may have changed a bit. The scaling on some of the values did shift at some point, and even whole features have been added (eg you might have been on a really old version without dynamic tone mapping at all). Do you know any more details of exactly how / when it was set up before?


All valid points. I didn’t think of those things. Definitely something happened when I toggled the “match color content space” setting on the shield tv, as this rendered my projector unresponsive prompting me to power cycle the projector. Although I have had some power outages which have cut power to the theater room and there were no problems after.

I had dynamic tone mapping set from before. I was on version 120420 when the issue happened, I updated to 020121 hoping it would resolve the issue but nothing. Did factory reset without saving just to see if the projector would get brighter, didn’t see any change in brightness levels.


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## sunnya23

Kris Deering said:


> You should not hear any change in the Sony when feeding an SDR2020 signal from a Lumagen. Picture mode should stay exactly the same unless you have an external controller doing something.


I should specify more. I have 2 calibrated preset modes on the Sony projector. One for sdr 709 with laser output at 40 and the other for hdr 2020 with max laser output. When HDR is recognized the projector changes from the sdr 709 preset to the HDR 2020 preset which goes to maximum laser output.


----------



## Kris Deering

sunnya23 said:


> I should specify more. I have 2 calibrated preset modes on the Sony projector. One for sdr 709 with laser output at 40 and the other for hdr 2020 with max laser output. When HDR is recognized the projector changes from the sdr 709 preset to the HDR 2020 preset which goes to maximum laser output.


And this method will not work if you are trying to use the Lumagen tone mapping. There is no way to flag hdr with the Sony without engaging its own tone mapping.


----------



## sunnya23

Hmmm.... I'm not sure then. Maybe I misunderstand how the setup works. Because it was working wonderfully before this issue popped up. Spectral highlights looked great and the picture overall would look more vibrant than in SDR mode. I would be able to see above me and near the screen, beams of light intensity moving with certain objects like a lightsaber in Star Wars or a flashlight in a dark scene. Right now there's not much difference between the sdr and HDR image and it almost seems like dynamic tone mapping is off, even though I confirm it is on when checking the info page. I'm in contact with my dealer right now for troubleshooting so hopefully I will have this issue resolved soon. Thank you everyone for your help and input. I don't want to derail this thread any further.


----------



## MOberhardt

mhafner said:


> How good is the 1080i50 to 1080p50 deinterlacing with film sources at the moment? I'm watching "The Young Pope" from BD. It's in 1080i50 from a 1080p25 master, as far as I know. When playing via Lumagen it's full of deinterlacing aliasing artifacts. Bias is on film. There is no option to enforce film. Is this caused by the Lumagen or is the source not providing a proper pulldown? Or should I set the Lumagen to output to 1080p25?


Jim posted something on this a page or so back in answer to the same question from me. There is something to set but it is needed if 50i material has some flag wrong. I've not tested it though. I hate 50i, but inadvertently ended up with one I was watching...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

sunnya23 said:


> Hmmm.... I'm not sure then. Maybe I misunderstand how the setup works. Because it was working wonderfully before this issue popped up. Spectral highlights looked great and the picture overall would look more vibrant than in SDR mode. I would be able to see above me and near the screen, beams of light intensity moving with certain objects like a lightsaber in Star Wars or a flashlight in a dark scene. Right now there's not much difference between the sdr and HDR image and it almost seems like dynamic tone mapping is off, even though I confirm it is on when checking the info page. I'm in contact with my dealer right now for troubleshooting so hopefully I will have this issue resolved soon. Thank you everyone for your help and input. I don't want to derail this thread any further.


Did you set all this up yourself or did a dealer do it for you? i know there is at least one US dealer who wrote a Control 4 driver that looks at the incoming signal type the Lumagen reports and uses that data to flip Sony projector presets like you say you were doing. This does not involve setting the HDR flag to ON in the CMS of the lumagn though, it's llooking at the data the Lumagen is receiving from the source. I would expect whoever supplied you all this tuff be to be able to resolve this for you.


----------



## Surge2018

sunnya23 said:


> Hmmm.... I'm not sure then. Maybe I misunderstand how the setup works. Because it was working wonderfully before this issue popped up. Spectral highlights looked great and the picture overall would look more vibrant than in SDR mode. I would be able to see above me and near the screen, beams of light intensity moving with certain objects like a lightsaber in Star Wars or a flashlight in a dark scene. Right now there's not much difference between the sdr and HDR image and it almost seems like dynamic tone mapping is off, even though I confirm it is on when checking the info page. I'm in contact with my dealer right now for troubleshooting so hopefully I will have this issue resolved soon. Thank you everyone for your help and input. I don't want to derail this thread any further.


You should never see “Contrast (HDR)” in the Sony’s on screen display. That means its trying to do its own HDR mapping.
I have 2 picture mode presets for my Sony 995, one for SDR and one for HDR. It’s pretty easy to just switch manually via the remote. I think a lot of people overly complicate their setups because they want it to be automated. That ends up creating more hassle than it’s worth.


----------



## sunnya23

Gordon Fraser said:


> Did you set all this up yourself or did a dealer do it for you? i know there is at least one US dealer who wrote a Control 4 driver that looks at the incoming signal type the Lumagen reports and uses that data to flip Sony projector presets like you say you were doing. This does not involve setting the HDR flag to ON in the CMS of the lumagn though, it's llooking at the data the Lumagen is receiving from the source. I would expect whoever supplied you all this tuff be to be able to resolve this for you.


Yes. Everything was done by the dealer and calibrator. I have a Crestron system running nearly everything in my home theater. I am guessing this is exactly what happens, where the presets then change in the projector depending on the signal that is incoming.


----------



## sunnya23

Surge2018 said:


> You should never see “Contrast (HDR)” in the Sony’s on screen display. That means its trying to do its own HDR mapping.
> I have 2 picture mode presets for my Sony 995, one for SDR and one for HDR. It’s pretty easy to just switch manually via the remote. I think a lot of people overly complicate their setups because they want it to be automated. That ends up creating more hassle than it’s worth.


I never see any indication of HDR on screen when watching that content. The only change from the 2 presets that I am aware of is the colorspace setting and the laser settings, and I think gamma is also different. Otherwise the presets are virtually identical.


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> I think a lot of people overly complicate their setups because they want it to be automated. That ends up creating more hassle than it’s worth.


For me, part of the magic of the high end is having all the automation in place; I want to go into my micro-cinema and feel like there is a little projectionist hiding somewhere making everything just right for my own private screening.

Go in to the room, turn on the system, everything comes up, lights go down. Start a movie, masks move into correct place, projector automatically adjusts for HDR vs SDR, and the Radiance makes the image look excellent. 

Heaven!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

sunnya23 said:


> Yes. Everything was done by the dealer and calibrator. I have a Crestron system running nearly everything in my home theater. I am guessing this is exactly what happens, where the presets then change in the projector depending on the signal that is incoming.


In that case the HDR flag should be OFF in Lumagen.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I put this on Uk forum today so thought i ought to share it here as well. I went for my first covid jab today and when i got home i found my office full of 5438 Radiance Pro's. Not all my back orders but a fair pile! So some lucky clients in UK and EU will be getting theirs over next week or so. Still waiting on more of the Keces P8's i've got on back order though.

Thought i'd share some other info with folk. I've not had a high quality video projector at home for several months as i had to loan out my own JVC to client who has been waiting on an N7/RS2000. So i've not been able to really look at how much of a difference the 5348 makes to video quality, only audio quality. About two weeks ago i did a calibration from an old client. It was arranged months ago, before the 5348 came out. He has an N9/rs3000. He asked me if i could bring a 4242 to show him even though he didn't think it would make any significant improvement to his N9. I agreed (to take one over) and when the 5348 came out he asked if i could bring one of them as well. So i did. i spent several hours doing the n9 calibration and then spent another few hours doing full LUT based calibration and set up of DTM with a 4242. I then loaded that config in to my 5348 so we could demo all three combinations. The customer was pleased with the calibration improvements and asked if he could play same clips he'd chosen with the 5348. We swapped over memories and presets in both devices and off we went. This was done with no sound, just looking at video and with no Keces supply. Just standard Lumagen. We swapped back after to check we weren't seeing things....His comment after we did it again..."Well, that wasn't subtle". I had to agree. I was surprised. The image looked sharper and more detailed, obviously. It was easily visible in his system. I asked if i could compare the two Radiance Pro's on the same material and we did that. The tone mapping and calibration improvements were obvious still with the 4242 over the N9 but again the image looked more detailed. He turned to me and asked,"You can see that too can't you?" I could. I'm now looking forward to getting out there to do some more demo's in a couple of weeks as i start to come out of my self imposed lock down. Hopefully the recipients of some of these 5348's may post their own findings when they get theirs.

Stay safe everyone!


----------



## woofer

Gordon Fraser said:


> compare the two Radiance Pro's on the same material and we did that. The tone mapping and calibration improvements were obvious still with the 4242 over the N9 but again the image looked more detailed. He turned to me and asked,"You can see that too can't you?"


Yep,

I know most were fixated on the Audio improvements of the 5348 , BUT for me the Video improvement's it brings is the "Star of the Show" ...


----------



## sor

bobof said:


> For me, part of the magic of the high end is having all the automation in place; I want to go into my micro-cinema and feel like there is a little projectionist hiding somewhere making everything just right for my own private screening.
> 
> Go in to the room, turn on the system, everything comes up, lights go down. Start a movie, masks move into correct place, projector automatically adjusts for HDR vs SDR, and the Radiance makes the image look excellent.
> 
> Heaven!


Yes, I’ve done some of this as well and the Lumagen is instrumental in providing the video information required to do these things. I’ve just programmed some simple integrations that are customized to how I use the room - when the frame rate goes from 60 to 24 the lights dim, and when it goes from 24 to 60 they turn up. The masking is interpreted from the aspect ratio coming off the Lumagen. When I flip the light switch completely off the screen mask returns to its resting position. Stuff like that.


----------



## mindedc

Gordon Fraser said:


> Did you set all this up yourself or did a dealer do it for you? i know there is at least one US dealer who wrote a Control 4 driver that looks at the incoming signal type the Lumagen reports and uses that data to flip Sony projector presets like you say you were doing. This does not involve setting the HDR flag to ON in the CMS of the lumagn though, it's llooking at the data the Lumagen is receiving from the source. I would expect whoever supplied you all this tuff be to be able to resolve this for you.


The Control 4 Lumagen driver will be up on drivercentral.io in a few weeks. You can do this automation there as well as using the frame rate to adjust lights and if you are brave/careful you can do masking with the reported aspect ratio and many other things.


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> Jim posted something on this a page or so back in answer to the same question from me. There is something to set but it is needed if 50i material has some flag wrong. I've not tested it though. I hate 50i, but inadvertently ended up with one I was watching...


If you see excessive "combing" in the 1080i50 or 1080i60 source, it could be the source has the top/bottom field order flipped. We thought this was a thing of the past but recently I had to turn on the "Field Flip" feature to get some 1080i music videos I had been watching to not look really bad.

Download the manual and search for "flip" to see the command. Make sure to save after the change if it helps.


----------



## Des511

NM


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> If you see excessive "combing" in the 1080i50 or 1080i60 source, it could be the source has the top/bottom field order flipped. We thought this was a thing of the past but recently I had to turn on the "Field Flip" feature to get some 1080i music videos I had been watching to not look really bad.
> 
> Download the manual and search for "flip" to see the command. Make sure to save after the change if it helps.


Jim:

If you leave this flip command on, what effect will it have on properly set sources with proper top/bottom? Does it need to be turned off?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

LJG said:


> Jim:
> 
> If you leave this flip command on, what effect will it have on properly set sources with proper top/bottom? Does it need to be turned off?


You only want field flip on for sources where the field order is wrong. If it's correct then that will reverse it and create artefacts in image.


----------



## Erod

Hoping for help with an issue.

Everything on my Roku that is coming into my Lumagen at 58.95 Hz is being converted to 23.98 Hz, and it's causing a blurry, stuttery mess. Unwatchable. It's only affecting video, not audio.

Kris Deering is looking into it for me, but I thought maybe this was a solved problem in the past for someone here. This followed a calibration I had done on my RS3000 and Lumagen, but the calibrator only did a 3D/1D calibration on the Lumagen. No settings were changed to my knowledge.

Is there a setting within that instructs the Lumagen to make this conversion that I can turn off? 

This wasn't an issue prior to the calibration, and I don't have the frame matching on in the Roku. (As I mentioned, the conversion is happening in the Lumagen, and I can see it with the "ok" info button on the Lumagen remote.0

Thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## PeterLarsson

My calibrator will do a 2nd shot on my combo of Sony VW790 and Lumagan radaince Pro and he has bought a new signal generator Murideo Seven G. Have any of you used that one and how does it work with Lumagen?


----------



## bobof

Erod said:


> Hoping for help with an issue.
> 
> Everything on my Roku that is coming into my Lumagen at 58.95 Hz is being converted to 23.98 Hz, and it's causing a blurry, stuttery mess. Unwatchable. It's only affecting video, not audio.
> 
> Kris Deering is looking into it for me, but I thought maybe this was a solved problem in the past for someone here. This followed a calibration I had done on my RS3000 and Lumagen, but the calibrator only did a 3D/1D calibration on the Lumagen. No settings were changed to my knowledge.
> 
> Is there a setting within that instructs the Lumagen to make this conversion that I can turn off?
> 
> This wasn't an issue prior to the calibration, and I don't have the frame matching on in the Roku. (As I mentioned, the conversion is happening in the Lumagen, and I can see it with the "ok" info button on the Lumagen remote.0
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.


For that to be happening in the Lumagen, someone must have set all the input rates to map to 24p in the Lumagen. It is not a default behaviour; by default the Lumagen outputs the same rate as it receives.

To make sure that the conversion is happening in the Lumagen, press OK on the Lumagen remote which should get to a screen that shows the input and output signal information.

It would be most likely something around the Video Output menu - section 6 in the manual.


----------



## Erod

bobof said:


> For that to be happening in the Lumagen, someone must have set all the input rates to map to 24p in the Lumagen. It is not a default behaviour; by default the Lumagen outputs the same rate as it receives.
> 
> To make sure that the conversion is happening in the Lumagen, press OK on the Lumagen remote which should get to a screen that shows the input and output signal information.
> 
> It would be most likely something around the Video Output menu - section 6 in the manual.


Yes, I pushed OK, which showed the conversion happening. No issue now as Kris sent me a pair of codes last night that resolved the problem. Now everything is working perfectly.

Thanks for the response.


----------



## Kris Deering

PeterLarsson said:


> My calibrator will do a 2nd shot on my combo of Sony VW790 and Lumagan radaince Pro and he has bought a new signal generator Murideo Seven G. Have any of you used that one and how does it work with Lumagen?


Shouldn’t need it as the Lumagen is already a pattern generator and supplies what is needed for calibration purposes. But the SevenG is a nice piece of kit for sure.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Thanks a lot Kris!


----------



## tcramer

My brother in-law snagged a PS5 and of course wants to try it out in my theater room. I have a Radiance Pro feeding a Trinnov for audio and a Sony 5000 projector. Are there any Lumagen input settings that need to be set specifically for gaming? How is the overall lag when feeding through the Lumagen - any issues there? 

Or maybe it's just plug and play, simple enough.


----------



## crg28

Guys, any help here would be truly appreciated. I have family coming to spend the weekend at the house and if I cant make this work to entertain the kids and everyone I will have to start drinking now....  

I have had the Lumagen 4444 for about 1 year. It has been awesome to say the least. About 10 days ago I updated the Lumagen to the latest 020121 update. Also had KD update my config file. Everything worked awesome as usual for 7 days when all of a sudden my Lumagen Audio Output was no longer being recognized by my Anthem AVM60.

I mainly use just two sources, a Kscape Strato and ATV 4k with the occasional Directv game or a blue ray here or there. Everything goes into the Lumagen with Video Output 4 going directly to my JVC RS2000 (NX7). Audio Output 1 goes to my Anthem AVM 60 HDMI Input 1. The AVM60 now shows "No Signal" coming from the Lumagen Output 1. 

I tested to make sure it wasn’t the Anthem by bypassing the lumagen completely and going from sources to Anthem directly to that HDMI input 1 and the audio is perfectly fine from all 4 of my sources. So it is not the Anthem Audio or HDMI cables causing this. I tested every single HDMI cable.

Could this be any edid/handshake issue from the Lumagen Audio output to the Anthem? Never ever had this before....it has always worked perfectly until this week. Not sure what to do. Nothing else has changed in my AV closet. Could it be any setting on the Lumagen that might have turned off the Audio out? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## SJHT

What does the Lumagen Info screen show?


----------



## crg28




----------



## crg28

I tried just running the source directly to the Anthem and then HDMI out from Anthem into Lumagen and out to Projector and that works fine. But this is not how we set up the whole system. In my system Kris set up all the sources going to Lumagen first and then splitting Video and Audio to Projector and Anthem respectively.

I'm a total layman here, but based on this, it looks like there some issue with either the Lumagen sending the Audio file to the Anthem or the Anthem all of a sudden being unable to recognize the HDMI Audio Output from the Lumagen.


----------



## 187crew003

Make sure output 1 is set to A in the output setup menu in your info screen jt says the output is off


----------



## SJHT

Wonder is something changed in your config file you loaded. Just turn on the audio output. If KD is Kris Deering, I would just contact him and I’m sure he would fix and send you a new config file. SJ


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> For me, part of the magic of the high end is having all the automation in place; I want to go into my micro-cinema and feel like there is a little projectionist hiding somewhere making everything just right for my own private screening.
> 
> Go in to the room, turn on the system, everything comes up, lights go down. Start a movie, masks move into correct place, projector automatically adjusts for HDR vs SDR, and the Radiance makes the image look excellent.
> 
> Heaven!


Ah, yes, I can understand that! 
Whereas for me, I want to be that little projectionist, at least to an extent.


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> For that to be happening in the Lumagen, someone must have set all the input rates to map to 24p in the Lumagen. It is not a default behaviour; by default the Lumagen outputs the same rate as it receives.
> 
> To make sure that the conversion is happening in the Lumagen, press OK on the Lumagen remote which should get to a screen that shows the input and output signal information.
> 
> It would be most likely something around the Video Output menu - section 6 in the manual.


My calibrator did that too, for some reason. Just disable the conversion in the Lumagen, so that it outputs the same frame rate as the input.


----------



## Surge2018

crg28 said:


> Guys, any help here would be truly appreciated. I have family coming to spend the weekend at the house and if I cant make this work to entertain the kids and everyone I will have to start drinking now....
> 
> I have had the Lumagen 4444 for about 1 year. It has been awesome to say the least. About 10 days ago I updated the Lumagen to the latest 020121 update. Also had KD update my config file. Everything worked awesome as usual for 7 days when all of a sudden my Lumagen Audio Output was no longer being recognized by my Anthem AVM60.
> 
> I mainly use just two sources, a Kscape Strato and ATV 4k with the occasional Directv game or a blue ray here or there. Everything goes into the Lumagen with Video Output 4 going directly to my JVC RS2000 (NX7). Audio Output 1 goes to my Anthem AVM 60 HDMI Input 1. The AVM60 now shows "No Signal" coming from the Lumagen Output 1.
> 
> I tested to make sure it wasn’t the Anthem by bypassing the lumagen completely and going from sources to Anthem directly to that HDMI input 1 and the audio is perfectly fine from all 4 of my sources. So it is not the Anthem Audio or HDMI cables causing this. I tested every single HDMI cable.
> 
> Could this be any edid/handshake issue from the Lumagen Audio output to the Anthem? Never ever had this before....it has always worked perfectly until this week. Not sure what to do. Nothing else has changed in my AV closet. Could it be any setting on the Lumagen that might have turned off the Audio out?
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.


I would pay attention to the power on sequence that Jim recommended, copied below. You can also switch your Anthem to another input, wait a few seconds, then switch it back to the Lumagen input.

Also try:
Enter "Menu 0943" to enable the common audio formats. That makes sure all the surround formats are passed through.

Recommended power on sequence:
Projector/TV
Wait 10 to 20 seconds for projector/TV HDMI circuits to become active
Radiance Pro
Wait 5 seconds for Pro HDMI circuits to become active
Audio processor
Sources


----------



## Surge2018

tcramer said:


> My brother in-law snagged a PS5 and of course wants to try it out in my theater room. I have a Radiance Pro feeding a Trinnov for audio and a Sony 5000 projector. Are there any Lumagen input settings that need to be set specifically for gaming? How is the overall lag when feeding through the Lumagen - any issues there?
> 
> Or maybe it's just plug and play, simple enough.


Yes, turn on the Game mode in the Lumagen. I have a PS5 and Sony 995 - it’s great for gaming. Enable Input Lag Reduction in the Sony menu (under the video preset you are using). This is an area where Sony has JVC beat - lag is about half of what it is on the JVC projectors. That makes a big difference when you’re playing today’s games.


----------



## Craig Peer

Surge2018 said:


> Ah, yes, I can understand that!
> Whereas for me,* I want to be that little projectionist, at least to an exten*t.


Same here. Then my wife will need me for at least 2 things.


----------



## Surge2018

Craig Peer said:


> Same here. Then my wife will need me for at least 2 things.


Totally! “Honey, I can’t do X, I need to power on and warm up the system”... has gotten me out of a ton of mundane chores.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> Same here. Then my wife will need me for at least 2 things.


The second being opening all that wine??? 😏


----------



## crg28

Thanks. I tried all that already. My power sequence already follows this order.

I'm lost for what to do....




Surge2018 said:


> I would pay attention to the power on sequence that Jim recommended, copied below. You can also switch your Anthem to another input, wait a few seconds, then switch it back to the Lumagen input.
> 
> Also try:
> Enter "Menu 0943" to enable the common audio formats. That makes sure all the surround formats are passed through.
> 
> Recommended power on sequence:
> Projector/TV
> Wait 10 to 20 seconds for projector/TV HDMI circuits to become active
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for Pro HDMI circuits to become active
> Audio processor
> Sources


----------



## docrog

crg28 said:


> Thanks. I tried all that already. My power sequence already follows this order.
> 
> I'm lost for what to do....


Have you considered (at least temporarily) using the alternative Lumagen configuration of connecting all of your sources initially to the Anthem and then a single video out to the Lumagen? This will remove the Lumagen from processing any audio since the Anthem will act as the switching device. I'm aware that earlier Anthem AVRs did not have full [email protected] capability but current model specs indicate that is no longer an issue; your signature doesn't indicate which Anthem you're using. I've had zero issues with this video chain configuration with either of my earlier Yamaha 3080 or current Denon 6700 receivers, Radiance Pro and NX7 (identical to your RS2000).


----------



## SJHT

crg28 said:


> Thanks. I tried all that already. My power sequence already follows this order.
> 
> I'm lost for what to do....


Your post showed that the audio is turned off on the Lumagen. Did you turn it on per the other posts? Just go into output settings and change. Section 6 of the Lumagen manual. SJ


----------



## MDesigns

SJHT said:


> *Your post showed that the audio is turned off on the Lumagen*. Did you turn it on per the other posts? Just go into output settings and change. Section 6 of the Lumagen manual. SJ


Did it? I thought it said HDCP is off.


----------



## SJHT

You are correct, but I would check whether the audio is actually on in the output menu. He never replied about that. Also, if the last config he had worked, he could always load that back in. Even the older firmware. I assumed he was working with "KD" (Kris Deering?) and Kris could certainly help him. SJ


----------



## bearcat2002

Should we have audio turned off if you are running it AVR->Lumagen->Projector?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

bearcat2002 said:


> Should we have audio turned off if you are running it AVR->Lumagen->Projector?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some older projectors were sensitive to receiving audio formats they did not support. This seems to not be an issue with 4k projectors.

If you have a 4242 with an 18 GHz output card, when Output 1 has audio enabled (as it almost always is) then Output 2 will also have audio enabled and you cannot turn audio off (without disabling audio on Output 1).

If you have a 4242 with a 9 GHz output card, you can set Output 2 to the projector/TV to be video only, or audio and video. If you have a 444X, and use the recommended Output 1 for audio and Output 4 for video, you can set Output 4 to be video only, or audio+video. For these cases you can test with audio enabled to the projector/TV, and also with video-only to the projector/TV. It should not make a difference on a 4k projector/TV, but if it does then use that setting.

Use the Output.Output Setup menu for this. Select All for Input, Memory, and Input Mode (resolution) and then select the desired output modes to the far right under the word "Enable." The numbers are either "12" for a 42XX for Outputs 1, and 2. or 1234 for a 444X for Outputs 1, 2,3, and 4. Press OK to accept the change, then EXIT to leave the menu and activate the change. Then do a Save.


----------



## dschulz

I appreciate the collaboration between Panasonic and JVC, in which the flagship Panasonic UHD Blu Ray player works with the DTM in the JVC projector. I found myself wondering: if there is a Lumagen in the chain, is that feature still worthwhile, or is the need for it eliminated by using the Lumagen's superior DTM, such that the need to use the Panasonic Blu Ray and its JVC-specific settings goes away?


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone. I have some questions about NLS function. As we all know that Justice League Snyder Cut is 4:3 aspect ratio, I would like to try NLS function to stretch 4:3 content to 16:9 to fill my 16:9 screen. I press 4:3 button and then NLS button but the picture is almost exactly the same. I turn on pillar boxed function and the picture is still the same. I have attached some photos to show you. I try pressing only NLS button and the picture is still the same. How can NLS function really work? How can I stretch 4:3 content to fill all or almost my 16:9 screen? My projector is JVC RS3000 with 16:9 screen.
I know and understand that this will not be director intended.
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## ht guy

dschulz said:


> I appreciate the collaboration between Panasonic and JVC, in which the flagship Panasonic UHD Blu Ray player works with the DTM in the JVC projector. I found myself wondering: if there is a Lumagen in the chain, is that feature still worthwhile, or is the need for it eliminated by using the Lumagen's superior DTM, such that the need to use the Panasonic Blu Ray and its JVC-specific settings goes away?


Need for Panasonic JVC-specific settings and/or JVC DTM is eliminated with Lumagen. Some might say need for Lumagen DTM (but not aspect ratio switching, etc.) is eliminated with JVC DTM. My eyes would respectfully disagree.


----------



## Kris Deering

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone. I have some questions about NLS function. As we all know that Justice League Snyder Cut is 4:3 aspect ratio, I would like to try NLS function to stretch 4:3 content to 16:9 to fill my 16:9 screen. I press 4:3 button and then NLS button but the picture is almost exactly the same. I turn on pillar boxed function and the picture is still the same. I have attached some photos to show you. I try pressing only NLS button and the picture is still the same. How can NLS function really work? How can I stretch 4:3 content to fill all or almost my 16:9 screen? My projector is JVC RS3000 with 16:9 screen.
> I know and understand that this will not be director intended.
> Thank you for your help and support.


NLS is designed for scope setups, not 16x9 screens. With 16x9 screens Lumagen intended folks to use the zoom feature, which can be accessed by pressing the up or down arrows on the remote. But this was mainly for use with scope material on a 16x9 screen. I'd inquire with Lumagen about what they recommend for 4x3 content with 16x9 screen playback. 



dschulz said:


> I appreciate the collaboration between Panasonic and JVC, in which the flagship Panasonic UHD Blu Ray player works with the DTM in the JVC projector. I found myself wondering: if there is a Lumagen in the chain, is that feature still worthwhile, or is the need for it eliminated by using the Lumagen's superior DTM, such that the need to use the Panasonic Blu Ray and its JVC-specific settings goes away?


The Panasonic solution isn't recommended with the newer JVC projectors (NX series) as the JVC onboard tone mapping is a much better frame adaptive solution (the Panasonic is not frame adaptive). The Lumagen tone mapping exceeds the performance of either of these solutions.


----------



## SJHT

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone. I have some questions about NLS function. As we all know that Justice League Snyder Cut is 4:3 aspect ratio, I would like to try NLS function to stretch 4:3 content to 16:9 to fill my 16:9 screen. I press 4:3 button and then NLS button but the picture is almost exactly the same. I turn on pillar boxed function and the picture is still the same. I have attached some photos to show you. I try pressing only NLS button and the picture is still the same. How can NLS function really work? How can I stretch 4:3 content to fill all or almost my 16:9 screen? My projector is JVC RS3000 with 16:9 screen.
> I know and understand that this will not be director intended.
> Thank you for your help and support.


‘
Follow the steps at the bottom of this document:

http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0020_HowToWatch43ContentOnA169Display_112613.pdf

You need to change the NLS settings in 4:3 (looks like you are in 16:9). I use this on a 16:9 screen and it seems to work fine. I like it better then just zooming for 4:3 content. After you make the changes, run the 4:3 content, push the 4:3 aspect button followed by NLS. SJ


----------



## dschulz

ht guy said:


> Need for Panasonic JVC-specific settings and/or JVC DTM is eliminated with Lumagen. Some might say need for Lumagen DTM (but not aspect ratio switching, etc.) is eliminated with JVC DTM. My eyes would respectfully disagree.


Definitely agreed that Lumagan's DTM is better than that built in to the projector. I'm glad JVC built it in for customers on a budget to still experience HDR, but for sure Lumagen is the way to go here.



Kris Deering said:


> The Panasonic solution isn't recommended with the newer JVC projectors (NX series) as the JVC onboard tone mapping is a much better frame adaptive solution (the Panasonic is not frame adaptive). The Lumagen tone mapping exceeds the performance of either of these solutions.


Ah, I missed the memo that the newer projectors' DTM superseded the previous solution. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## bearcat2002

jrp said:


> Some older projectors were sensitive to receiving audio formats they did not support. This seems to not be an issue with 4k projectors.
> 
> If you have a 4242 with an 18 GHz output card, when Output 1 has audio enabled (as it almost always is) then Output 2 will also have audio enabled and you cannot turn audio off (without disabling audio on Output 1).
> 
> If you have a 4242 with a 9 GHz output card, you can set Output 2 to the projector/TV to be video only, or audio and video. If you have a 444X, and use the recommended Output 1 for audio and Output 4 for video, you can set Output 4 to be video only, or audio+video. For these cases you can test with audio enabled to the projector/TV, and also with video-only to the projector/TV. It should not make a difference on a 4k projector/TV, but if it does then use that setting.
> 
> Use the Output.Output Setup menu for this. Select All for Input, Memory, and Input Mode (resolution) and then select the desired output modes to the far right under the word "Enable." The numbers are either "12" for a 42XX for Outputs 1, and 2. or 1234 for a 444X for Outputs 1, 2,3, and 4. Press OK to accept the change, then EXIT to leave the menu and activate the change. Then do a Save.


Thank you much for the clarification Jim. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

*FW 030121- Posted 032521 *
Fix for output trigger on 5348.
Fix for menu sometimes incorrectly saying 'settings have changed since last save'.
Fix for 3D source having some extra pixels on right side.
Fix for occasional problematic input detection when changing from an interlaced source to a progressive source.
Added option to pass source HDR metadata to output when HDR is the Pro's output colorspace or HDR flag is on so not a factor if using recommended method of dynamic tone mapping HDR inputs to SDR output.
Option is called HDR Metadata and is in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMSX: Colorspace. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *FW 030121- Posted 032521 *
> Fix for output trigger on 5348.
> Fix for menu sometimes incorrectly saying 'settings have changed since last save'.
> Fix for 3D source having some extra pixels on right side.
> Fix for occasional problematic input detection when changing from an interlaced source to a progressive source.
> Added option to pass source HDR metadata to output when HDR is the Pro's output colorspace or HDR flag is on so not a factor if using recommended method of dynamic tone mapping HDR inputs to SDR output.
> Option is called HDR Metadata and is in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMSX: Colorspace.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


Need some info about the new option and what’s the recommended settings 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

Mike_WI said:


> http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> *FW 030121- Posted 032521 *
> Fix for output trigger on 5348.
> Fix for menu sometimes incorrectly saying 'settings have changed since last save'.
> Fix for 3D source having some extra pixels on right side.
> Fix for occasional problematic input detection when changing from an interlaced source to a progressive source.
> Added option to pass source HDR metadata to output when HDR is the Pro's output colorspace or HDR flag is on so not a factor if using recommended method of dynamic tone mapping HDR inputs to SDR output.
> Option is called HDR Metadata and is in the menu under Output: CMS's: CMSX: Colorspace.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


Ah so that was a Lumagen issue that thing I was seeing on the right on 3d films. I thought I must just have noticed it and it was source related

It'd be nice if it does sort those 50i oddities too.

I will test over the weekend with some 3D title. 

I guess that would explain why I'd only noticed that odd RHS 3d issue after I got the lumagen. I honestly thought it must have been the transfers.


----------



## jrp

A7mad78 said:


> Need some info about the new option and what’s the recommended settings


The recommended setting is to have the Radiance Pro output "HDR in a SDR container." So Output Colorspace = SDR2020 (or SDR709 or SDRP3). If you do setup this way, the way we _very strongly recommend,_ then this new (HDR output Metadata mode) feature is completely moot.

If you insist on going against the manufacturer's recommendation (i.e. Lumagen), and leaving the Pro output set to HDR, then I recommend passing through the source Metadata (unless you output HDR from the Pro currently and have it working now without the Metadata, and then leave as is).


----------



## jrp

Here at Lumagen we have a "high class problem." That is, last fall I thought we had enough remote controls to last us until July, and we had a new version of the remote on order that we expected to arrive late January. Here it is the end of March and sales have been so good we are (nearly) out of remote controls, and the remote control shipment we expected in January, is now now scheduled to arrive in May.

High class in that we have been having great sales. Big issue in that we are about out of remote controls.

I believe we have always had a great relationship with our customers. I was thinking of how to get remotes to ship until we get the Radiance Pro remote order in house, and I thought some Radiance Pro owners might be willing, and even appreciate, a trade of there current remote to get the new remote once available.

So, I have an offer for those of you who would like one of the new "Radiance Pro" remotes (I attached a rendering of the new remote) and who live in the USA. Lumagen will trade you straight across for your (working) Lumagen Radiance remote control (the one with the PiP/PoP button and not the earlier one). You send us your current remote (you pay shipping. USPS is fine), and we send you one of the new Radiance Pro remotes once they arrive at no charge. 

This should give us some B-Stock remotes to ship with units to see us through until the remote shipment arrives. So far no one has declined a shipment because we are sending a B-Stock remote. Well, we have had new remotes up until very recently, so not much feedback yet. 

If you have a control system you likely don't use your Radiance remote much, and this offer has you in mind. Here are the details:


Email lumagen.com (at sales email), request the "old for new Lumagen remote trade" and confirm you are in the USA.
I doubt we will get more takers than we need, but the above is to insure we don't
I will email you an RMA and the ship-to address (assuming we need more takers)
Once we have your remote we will test it and check it cosmetically (please check your remote cosmetically before you send it).
Once this check is complete we will put you on the list for a new Radiance Pro remote.
When we have the Radiance Pro remote shipment here, we will start sending out remotes

I hope this brings in some Radiance remotes for us to use in April and early May. Your help, as always, is much appreciated.


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> Here at Lumagen we have a "high class problem." That is, last fall I thought we had enough remote controls to last us until July, and we had a new version of the remote on order that we expected to arrive late January. Here it is the end of March and sales have been so good we are (nearly) out of remote controls, and the remote control shipment we expected in January, is now now scheduled to arrive in May.
> 
> High class in that we have been having great sales. Big issue in that we are about out of remote controls.
> 
> I believe we have always had a great relationship with our customers. I was thinking of how to get remotes to ship until we get the Radiance Pro remote order in house, and I thought some Radiance Pro owners might be willing, and even appreciate, a trade of there current remote to get the new remote once available.
> 
> So, I have an offer for those of you who would like one of the new "Radiance Pro" remotes (I attached a rendering of the new remote) and who live in the USA. Lumagen will trade you straight across for your (working) Lumagen Radiance remote control (the one with the PiP/PoP button and not the earlier one). You send us your current remote (you pay shipping. USPS is fine), and we send you one of the new Radiance Pro remotes once they arrive at no charge.
> 
> This should give us some B-Stock remotes to ship with units to see us through until the remote shipment arrives. So far no one has declined a shipment because we are sending a B-Stock remote. Well, we have had new remotes up until very recently, so not much feedback yet.
> 
> If you have a control system you likely don't use your Radiance remote much, and this offer has you in mind. Here are the details:
> 
> 
> Email lumagen.com (at sales email), request the "old for new Lumagen remote trade" and confirm you are in the USA.
> I doubt we will get more takers than we need, but the above is to insure we don't
> I will email you an RMA and the ship-to address (assuming we need more takers)
> Once we have your remote we will test it and check it cosmetically (please check your remote cosmetically before you send it).
> Once this check is complete we will put you on the list for a new Radiance Pro remote.
> When we have the Radiance Pro remote shipment here, we will start sending out remotes
> 
> I hope this brings in some Radiance remotes for us to use in April and early May. Your help, as always, is much appreciated.


I am not is the USA and I don’t have my control system setup yet so I couldn’t help. 

But I have to say if I were in a position to help then I would. I very much appreciate the assistance and presence that you provide here on the forum 

BTW I watched alita battle angel last night with the lumagen tone mapping. Absolutely amazing !! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> The recommended setting is to have the Radiance Pro output "HDR in a SDR container." So Output Colorspace = SDR2020 (or SDR709 or SDRP3). If you do setup this way, the way we _very strongly recommend,_ then this new (HDR output Metadata mode) feature is completely moot.
> 
> If you insist on going against the manufacturer's recommendation (i.e. Lumagen), and leaving the Pro output set to HDR, then I recommend passing through the source Metadata (unless you output HDR from the Pro currently and have it working now without the Metadata, and then leave as is).


Thx Jim I sent a photo to the support mail 

My out is SDR 2020 but my ask is about the HDR flag ON or OFF 

Thx for ur support 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## riddle

A7mad78 said:


> Thx Jim I sent a photo to the support mail
> 
> My out is SDR 2020 but my ask is about the HDR flag ON or OFF
> 
> Thx for ur support
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you have a JVC projector then you can add HDR Flag ON but don't forget to set HDR10 on color temperature.


----------



## A7mad78

riddle said:


> If you have a JVC projector then you can add HDR Flag ON but don't forget to set HDR10 on color temperature.


No I got Barco Balder and it’s dedicated if I play Rec2020 or rec 709 automatically




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gordon Fraser

A7mad78 HDR flag is OFF on your system


----------



## A7mad78

Gordon Fraser said:


> A7mad78 HDR flag is OFF on your system


Thanks Gordon  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Citation4444

Received my new Radiance Pro 5348! Had a couple teething issues which prompted a call to Jim Peterson, who stepped me through how to get it up and running. Turns out it was HDCP issues due to my older projectors not supporting the latest standard. Everything's fine now, and my first impressions are very positive. Fast switching, no synch problems, sound great, etc. I'm a real happy camper. 
A public thanks to Jim Peterson for his very patient and clear explanations. Lumagen's support has always been top notch, and it remains so.


----------



## Surge2018

Just got my Radiance Pro 5348 as well!
First, a massive thank you to Jim - the customer service is world class, as always. Video processors are very complex products; having excellent customer service is very important.

I upgraded from a 4242, and had some issues with the Output mode changing to Custom 0, from Auto 2 by itself. I am 99.99% sure I was not using Custom 0 with the old unit, and I just loaded the latest config file into the new unit. Anyway, the image quality was just a bit “soft”, and I was a bit worried... until I traced it to the output mode. Once that was set to Auto 3, which is the default for the 5348, the image quality was perfect again.

Is the Audio quality better than the 4242? Yes, it is. It’s not a huge difference, but it is definitely noticeable. It’s “cleaner”, “punchier” bass... like I upgraded the audio processor and the analog cables. Again, not huge, but definitely noticeable. 
Is the Video quality better than the 4242? I am using a Sony 995ES, so there _could_ be, as with JVC projectors. I think there is a small improvement - there are certain scenes in my frequently played Call of Duty on XBOX X that had some noise, and that’s now gone. The improvement is minor and not really noticeable. 

With the 4242 I was using very clean incoming AC power, both from a PS Audio P20 AC regenerator (absolutely essential gear, for systems costing over ~$50K), and a Teddy Pardo linearly regulated power supply, so I was not expecting to see or hear much of an improvement. It is known that cleaner incoming AC reduces jitter. 
Overall, I’m happy with the upgrade. It’s a small % increase in the cost of my AV system, with noticeable benefits. 

Note: it’s not that clear in the current version of the owners’ manual, the best/recommended output connections are:
Output 1 - Audio only - to your surround processor
Output 2 - whatever you want
Output 3 - Video only - to your projector/display 
According to Lumagen, video jitter is minimized on output 3, when set to output video only, and the lowest audio jitter is on Output 1. Using Output 3 for video and changing the output modes to “AAV” is recommended and not in the current version of the manual.


----------



## MOberhardt

Well I'm not seeing that 3d issue any more! Woo hoo!


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*FW 030321*
- _Posted 032621_ 
Small bug fix where a few menu items for inputs 9 & 10 (actual inputs on Radiance Pro model 5348 and virtual inputs on other models) would either be shown as ':', not selectable, or settings would not be applied as expected. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jrp said:


> Here at Lumagen we have a "high class problem." That is, last fall I thought we had enough remote controls to last us until July, and we had a new version of the remote on order that we expected to arrive late January. Here it is the end of March and sales have been so good we are (nearly) out of remote controls, and the remote control shipment we expected in January, is now now scheduled to arrive in May.
> 
> High class in that we have been having great sales. Big issue in that we are about out of remote controls.
> 
> I believe we have always had a great relationship with our customers. I was thinking of how to get remotes to ship until we get the Radiance Pro remote order in house, and I thought some Radiance Pro owners might be willing, and even appreciate, a trade of there current remote to get the new remote once available.
> 
> So, I have an offer for those of you who would like one of the new "Radiance Pro" remotes (I attached a rendering of the new remote) and who live in the USA. Lumagen will trade you straight across for your (working) Lumagen Radiance remote control (the one with the PiP/PoP button and not the earlier one). You send us your current remote (you pay shipping. USPS is fine), and we send you one of the new Radiance Pro remotes once they arrive at no charge.
> 
> This should give us some B-Stock remotes to ship with units to see us through until the remote shipment arrives. So far no one has declined a shipment because we are sending a B-Stock remote. Well, we have had new remotes up until very recently, so not much feedback yet.
> 
> If you have a control system you likely don't use your Radiance remote much, and this offer has you in mind. Here are the details:
> 
> 
> Email lumagen.com (at sales email), request the "old for new Lumagen remote trade" and confirm you are in the USA.
> I doubt we will get more takers than we need, but the above is to insure we don't
> I will email you an RMA and the ship-to address (assuming we need more takers)
> Once we have your remote we will test it and check it cosmetically (please check your remote cosmetically before you send it).
> Once this check is complete we will put you on the list for a new Radiance Pro remote.
> When we have the Radiance Pro remote shipment here, we will start sending out remotes
> 
> I hope this brings in some Radiance remotes for us to use in April and early May. Your help, as always, is much appreciated.


Any of my international or UK clients reading this, please note that we will participate in this offer as well. You know how to contact me.

Gordon


----------



## blake

Gordon Fraser said:


> Any of my international or UK clients reading this, please note that we will participate in this offer as well. You know how to contact me.
> 
> Gordon


What about canada ? We are even closer !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

Redo my calibration on my Sony VW995ES today.









_The image is derived from the Tom and Jerry movie (in 4K HDR - processed by Lumagen Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping - shot using iPhone 12 Pro Max)_

Which image do you prefer and why? The left side is using *colorspace SDR2020 *while the right side is using the *DCI-P3* color gamut. All the colors fall within the BT2020 colorspace but you can see there is a difference in the way it is presented. The most notable difference is the change in skin tones and the change in the sconce lighting as well.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Here at Lumagen we have a "high class problem." That is, last fall I thought we had enough remote controls to last us until July, and we had a new version of the remote on order that we expected to arrive late January. Here it is the end of March and sales have been so good we are (nearly) out of remote controls, and the remote control shipment we expected in January, is now now scheduled to arrive in May.
> 
> High class in that we have been having great sales. Big issue in that we are about out of remote controls.
> 
> I believe we have always had a great relationship with our customers. I was thinking of how to get remotes to ship until we get the Radiance Pro remote order in house, and I thought some Radiance Pro owners might be willing, and even appreciate, a trade of there current remote to get the new remote once available.
> 
> So, I have an offer for those of you who would like one of the new "Radiance Pro" remotes (I attached a rendering of the new remote) and who live in the USA. Lumagen will trade you straight across for your (working) Lumagen Radiance remote control (the one with the PiP/PoP button and not the earlier one). You send us your current remote (you pay shipping. USPS is fine), and we send you one of the new Radiance Pro remotes once they arrive at no charge.
> 
> This should give us some B-Stock remotes to ship with units to see us through until the remote shipment arrives. So far no one has declined a shipment because we are sending a B-Stock remote. Well, we have had new remotes up until very recently, so not much feedback yet.
> 
> If you have a control system you likely don't use your Radiance remote much, and this offer has you in mind. Here are the details:
> 
> 
> Email lumagen.com (at sales email), request the "old for new Lumagen remote trade" and confirm you are in the USA.
> I doubt we will get more takers than we need, but the above is to insure we don't
> I will email you an RMA and the ship-to address (assuming we need more takers)
> Once we have your remote we will test it and check it cosmetically (please check your remote cosmetically before you send it).
> Once this check is complete we will put you on the list for a new Radiance Pro remote.
> When we have the Radiance Pro remote shipment here, we will start sending out remotes
> 
> I hope this brings in some Radiance remotes for us to use in April and early May. Your help, as always, is much appreciated.


Hi Jim, any chance for International customer such as myself to get hold of the new remote controller?


----------



## MDesigns

desray2k said:


> _The image is derived from the Tom and Jerry movie (in 4K HDR - processed by Lumagen Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping - shot using iPhone 12 Pro Max)_
> 
> Which image do you prefer and why? The left side is using *colorspace SDR2020 *while the right side is using the *DCI-P3* color gamut. All the colors fall within the BT2020 colorspace but you can see there is a difference in the way it is presented. The most notable difference is the change in skin tones and the change in the sconce lighting as well.


Did you also change the color profile in the projector between the pics? Output colorspace must match the colorspace chosen in the projector. Those two should look the same, but now it looks like you are using BT2020 color profile in both pics and the P3 one gets a red push because of that. Left side looks correct.


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> View attachment 3116269
> 
> Redo my calibration on my Sony VW995ES today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The image is derived from the Tom and Jerry movie (in 4K HDR - processed by Lumagen Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping - shot using iPhone 12 Pro Max)_
> 
> Which image do you prefer and why? The left side is using *colorspace SDR2020 *while the right side is using the *DCI-P3* color gamut. All the colors fall within the BT2020 colorspace but you can see there is a difference in the way it is presented. The most notable difference is the change in skin tones and the change in the sconce lighting as well.


Did you re calibrate for each setting and make a different 3DLUT for each, targeting either BT2020 or P3, each with 2.4 gamma? Without doing that - or having profiles in the display that you know accurately map P3 or 2020 with 2.4 gamma - then one (most likely SDRP3) will be totally wrong.


----------



## Surge2018

desray2k said:


> View attachment 3116269
> 
> Redo my calibration on my Sony VW995ES today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The image is derived from the Tom and Jerry movie (in 4K HDR - processed by Lumagen Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping - shot using iPhone 12 Pro Max)_
> 
> Which image do you prefer and why? The left side is using *colorspace SDR2020 *while the right side is using the *DCI-P3* color gamut. All the colors fall within the BT2020 colorspace but you can see there is a difference in the way it is presented. The most notable difference is the change in skin tones and the change in the sconce lighting as well.


The image on the left, by far, looks more natural and accurate. Although neither look correct, at least to my eye! The left image looks understurated and the right looks oversaturated. Also, this may not be relevant but the 995ES does not meet the P3 color gamut spec (I can’t remember what % it meets, but it’s not 100%)...


----------



## Technology3456

Does the Lumagen 2143 have dynamic tonemapping HDR onto 1080p projectors from a 4K UHD disc?


----------



## bobof

Technology3456 said:


> Does the Lumagen 2143 have dynamic tonemapping HDR onto 1080p projectors from a 4K UHD disc?


2143 does not support any UHD sources or any dynamic tonemapping. It is from the original Radiance series. You need a Radiance Pro modele for dynamic tonemapping, model number 4240 and greater.


----------



## edthomp

desray2k said:


> View attachment 3116269
> 
> Redo my calibration on my Sony VW995ES today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The image is derived from the Tom and Jerry movie (in 4K HDR - processed by Lumagen Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping - shot using iPhone 12 Pro Max)_
> 
> Which image do you prefer and why? The left side is using *colorspace SDR2020 *while the right side is using the *DCI-P3* color gamut. All the colors fall within the BT2020 colorspace but you can see there is a difference in the way it is presented. The most notable difference is the change in skin tones and the change in the sconce lighting as well.


I prefer the image on the left as the skin tone looks more natural, actually much more natural. The image on the right she looks slightly sun burned.


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> What about canada ? We are even closer !


If you are in Canada, you can contact Lumagen sales email directly if you want to participate in the "Old for New" remote control exchange. Might be tricky due to customs (meaning you would need to pay import duty and brokerage fees making it not interesting), but we can investigate.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Hi Jim, any chance for International customer such as myself to get hold of the new remote controller?


Depends on which country.

Gordon Fraser is offering his clients the "Old for New" remote trade. If you bought from Gordon contact him. If not email our sales email at lumagen.com. We can at least discuss options.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Depends on which country.
> 
> Gordon Fraser is offering his clients the "Old for New" remote trade. If you bought from Gordon contact him. If not email our sales email at lumagen.com. We can at least discuss options.


Thanks Jim. I'm hailing from Singapore so the trade-in program doesn't apply to me here unfortunately. Anyway I will drop your sale team an email to discuss.


----------



## desray2k

Surge2018 said:


> The image on the left, by far, looks more natural and accurate. Although neither look correct, at least to my eye! The left image looks understurated and the right looks oversaturated. Also, this may not be relevant but the 995ES does not meet the P3 color gamut spec (I can’t remember what % it meets, but it’s not 100%)...


Hi Surge2018, an interesting observation...so to you, neither is correct? If so, what will be the correct colors? Do you have this Tom and Jerry movie? Perhaps you can take a shot and show to us what constitute a correct color setting if properly calibrated...all in the name of learning 

I do acknowledge that smart phone photography may not always reflect the most accurate representation of the actual image.


----------



## desray2k

edthomp said:


> I prefer the image on the left as the skin tone looks more natural, actually much more natural. The image on the right she looks slightly sun burned.


The one on the left is calibrated in SDR 2020 (No HDR flag) whereas the right one simply to show effects when you change the colorspace from SDR 2020 to P3. The whole point about this post is to showcase how members perceive the colors and skin tones. Some of our eye sight have being "pampered" by the Amoled display of many smart phones of today where everything has to look bright and the colors must be "vivid" etc...so I am wondering if anyone may have a predilection of the more "reddish" skin tone


----------



## asharma

Hi Folks

im considering buying a used Lumagen for my JVC NX7...I have a Spyder X ( used for gamma) and I1pro2 (used for color)...Since I am comfortable with JVCAutocal, can I continue to calibrate with Autocal or do I have to use Lumagen’s calibration? If I ran JVC’s Autocal is there anything I would need to change in the Lumagen for optimal video output Or would JVC Autocal with a Lumagen get me 90% there...Sorry for the newbie question...thanks

edit: reading thru some of the last few pages, this certainly doesn’t seem plug and play...perhaps better to buy new so I can pick up the phone and call someone when I’m stuck...anywhoooooo would still appreciate some answers while I decide what to do...thanks


----------



## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> im considering buying a used Lumagen for my JVC NX7...I have a Spyder X ( used for gamma) and I1pro2 (used for color)...Since I am comfortable with JVCAutocal, can I continue to calibrate with Autocal or do I have to use Lumagen’s calibration? If I ran JVC’s Autocal is there anything I would need to change in the Lumagen for optimal video output Or would JVC Autocal with a Lumagen get me 90% there...Sorry for the newbie question...thanks
> 
> edit: reading thru some of the last few pages, this certainly doesn’t seem plug and play...perhaps better to buy new so I can pick up the phone and call someone when I’m stuck...anywhoooooo would still appreciate some answers while I decide what to do...thanks


Ash you can definitely still use Autocal. I do this with my RS4500 still with no issues. I have an Chromapure licence as as well as Calman, but haven't been convinced Chromapure can do a good autocal for HDR BT2020 from advice here on the thread. I haven't delved into Calman either as I haven't had time but also have heard since that it might not be the optimum tool for me either. All in all though I'm getting such a nice image at the moment as it is, I haven't felt compelled to go beyond JVC Autocal at this point.


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> Ash you can definitely still use Autocal. I do this with my RS4500 still with no issues. I have an Chromapure licence as as well as Calman, but haven't been convinced Chromapure can do a good autocal for HDR BT2020 from advice here on the thread. I haven't delved into Calman either as I haven't had time but also have heard since that it might not be the optimum tool for me either. All in all though I'm getting such a nice image at the moment as it is, I haven't felt compelled to go beyond JVC Autocal at this point.


Thanks very much for the info...just reading this forum, the Lumagen looks a little intimidating to me...Well if I can just run AutoCal, I’m comfortable with that piece...Is the rest of the secret sauce just getting the config file set up properly?


----------



## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Thanks very much for the info...just reading this forum, the Lumagen looks a little intimidating to me...Well if I can just run AutoCal, I’m comfortable with that piece...Is the rest of the secret sauce just getting the config file set up properly?


A little bit of a learning curve but in all honesty there is plenty of info to refer to. Giomania's guide is excellent for example. Once you're familiar with where things are at in the menus and sub menus, things will start to make sense fairly quickly.


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> A little bit of a learning curve but in all honesty there is plenty of info to refer to. Giomania's guide is excellent for example. Once you're familiar with where things are at in the menus and sub menus, things will start to make sense fairly quickly.


Sorry to ask, would u have a link to his guide...I searched but was unsuccessful...thanks


----------



## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Sorry to ask, would u have a link to his guide...I searched but was unsuccessful...thanks


It's all over this thread, just search Giomania and you'll find it linked in his sig.


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> It's all over this thread, just search Giomania and you'll find it linked in his sig.


Awesome, thanks man and only 101 pages long 😉


----------



## docrog

asharma said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> im considering buying a used Lumagen for my JVC NX7...I have a Spyder X ( used for gamma) and I1pro2 (used for color)...Since I am comfortable with JVCAutocal, can I continue to calibrate with Autocal or do I have to use Lumagen’s calibration? If I ran JVC’s Autocal is there anything I would need to change in the Lumagen for optimal video output Or would JVC Autocal with a Lumagen get me 90% there...Sorry for the newbie question...thanks
> 
> edit: reading thru some of the last few pages, this certainly doesn’t seem plug and play...perhaps better to buy new so I can pick up the phone and call someone when I’m stuck...anywhoooooo would still appreciate some answers while I decide what to do...thanks


I can understand how optimal setup of the Radiance Pro can be more than a little intimidating. I think you should be aware that the DTM PQ of the Lumagen is probably not going to be especially noticeable when compared with the NX7's current DTM for the overwhelming amount of HDR content on your screen. When paired with the current JVC PJ line, I think that the rationale for adding the Lumagen may make more sense for those who make use of multiple aspect ratios and its somewhat improved upscaling to 4K & edge enhancements in comparison with your Panasonic UB820.


----------



## riddle

I personally see quite a big difference compare to the JVC DTM, I do not need to decide which mode to choose, because the choice of auto did not always suit to my eyes. But with Lumagen Radiance this is another level and I don't have to deal with which mode to choose, everything just works great with Lumagen.


----------



## woofer

riddle said:


> I personally see quite a big difference compare to the JVC DTM, I do not need to decide which mode to choose, because the choice of auto did not always suit to my eyes. But with Lumagen Radiance this is another level and I don't have to deal with which mode to choose, everything just works great with Lumagen.


Same here.....i find the difference between the JVC DTM and the Lumagen,s DTM to be quite large!


----------



## asharma

docrog said:


> I can understand how optimal setup of the Radiance Pro can be more than a little intimidating. I think you should be aware that the DTM PQ of the Lumagen is probably not going to be especially noticeable when compared with the NX7's current DTM for the overwhelming amount of HDR content on your screen. When paired with the current JVC PJ line, I think that the rationale for adding the Lumagen may make more sense for those who make use of multiple aspect ratios and its somewhat improved upscaling to 4K & edge enhancements in comparison with your Panasonic UB820.


Very much appreciate the information...I can see opinions are all over the place...I sometimes struggle with the price/performance ratio since by the time I get gear thru my theatre door in Canada, with shipping, exchange rate, tax etc, the cost sometimes comes close to double what I paid in US dollars...


----------



## asharma

woofer said:


> Same here.....i find the difference between the JVC DTM and the Lumagen,s DTM to be quite large!


Are you running an RS4500? Perhaps the added brightness, better lens has a bigger impact with the Lumagen?


----------



## riddle

*asharma*
you can always add something like DCR Paladin to your set


----------



## asharma

riddle said:


> *asharma*
> you can always add something like DCR Paladin to your set


Thanks...I’ve considered it but I'm not struggling for brightness...it may be “step 2“ after a Lumagen...


----------



## Killroy

asharma said:


> Are you running an RS4500? Perhaps the added brightness, better lens has a bigger impact with the Lumagen?


I use the Lumagen on a RS3000 and I also echo his statement that the difference is quit large (substantial).


----------



## woofer

asharma said:


> Are you running an RS4500? Perhaps the added brightness, better lens has a bigger impact with the Lumagen?


My primary PJ is the Z1/RS4500 , but i have looked at this with the N5 and NX9 also...


----------



## docrog

woofer said:


> Same here.....i find the difference between the JVC DTM and the Lumagen's DTM to be *quite large*!


Is that your conclusion for the vast majority of HDR content or only in scenes with torture conditions? My 127" 16:9 screen is larger in area compared with @asharma 125" scope screen and I'd be hard pressed to find *ANY *typical HDR content where a side-by-side comparison would yield a difference that was "*quite large*". My RP was professionally calibrated by Craig R. (3D LUT) and the NX7 by Chad B., both of whom have stellar reputations, so I don't think that the lack of appreciable difference is caused by suboptimal calibration of the RP. To my eye, in my light controlled HT, the typical DTM difference has been minimal, at best. Also, I think that it's somewhat disingenuous to state that the RP is "set and forget" with regards to HDR. Many posters here have voiced preferences for DSAT, etc. based on content. I've found the JVC DTM to be approximately equal to the RP with regards to HDR "set and forget".


----------



## 187crew003

I haven’t touched the settings for dsat etc in over two months (since the last dtm firmware came out). Not sure it gets more set it and forget it than that. Also I don’t remember many stating they change it based on content.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Is that your conclusion for the vast majority of HDR content or only in scenes with torture conditions? My 127" 16:9 screen is larger in area compared with @asharma 125" scope screen and I'd be hard pressed to find *ANY *typical HDR content where a side-by-side comparison would yield a difference that was "*quite large*". My RP was professionally calibrated by Craig R. (3D LUT) and the NX7 by Chad B., both of whom have stellar reputations, so I don't think that the lack of appreciable difference is caused by suboptimal calibration of the RP. To my eye, in my light controlled HT, the typical DTM difference has been minimal, at best. Also, I think that it's somewhat disingenuous to state that the RP is "set and forget" with regards to HDR. Many posters here have voiced preferences for DSAT, etc. based on content. I've found the JVC DTM to be approximately equal to the RP with regards to HDR "set and forget".


His screen is larger than yours because he is zoomed out to fill, so the pixels are slightly larger on his screen than yours. His screen is roughly the equivalent of a 133" diagonal 16x9 screen.

Also, with regards to set and forget, the only reason one would need to change a setting on the Lumagen tone mapping is because Lumagen did a change to how it works and settings need to be reconsidered based on improvements to processing. Once the proper settings are in place, the need for changing is nearly 0. This is definitely NOT the case with the JVC tone mapping. It is quite good, but it still requires somewhat regular intervention and even with that it still struggles with quite a bit of content that doesn't so much as cause a blip with the Lumagen tone mapping.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> His screen is larger than yours because he is zoomed out to fill, so the pixels are slightly larger on his screen than yours. His screen is roughly the equivalent of a 133" diagonal 16x9 screen.
> 
> Also, with regards to set and forget, the only reason one would need to change a setting on the Lumagen tone mapping is because Lumagen did a change to how it works and settings need to be reconsidered based on improvements to processing. Once the proper settings are in place, the need for changing is nearly 0. This is definitely NOT the case with the JVC tone mapping. It is quite good, but it still requires somewhat regular intervention and even with that it still struggles with quite a bit of content that doesn't so much as cause a blip with the Lumagen tone mapping.


I must be oblivious to these JVC DTM "struggles with* quite a bit *of content". I honestly haven't had to tweak the DTM settings from auto since installing a new lamp, updating the firmware and having professional calibration, so I'd appreciate being clued into real world HDR content that might trip up the NX7 when unpaired with the RP. I'd like to see if my UHD collection includes relevant problematic content; time stamps and what to specifically be on the lookout for would be quite helpful.


----------



## Killroy

docrog said:


> I must be oblivious to these JVC DTM "struggles with* quite a bit *of content".......I'd like to see if my UHD collection includes relevant problematic content; time stamps and what to specifically be on the lookout for would be quite helpful.


Trust me!!! You don't!!! Once you see it you cannot unsee it. I can give you lots of examples but it will ruin your current perception on the matter and not in a good way. I stopped giving people examples after we had the local MadVR Envy vs Lumagen torture test and certain owners pretty much cursed me and my unborn children for pointing them out.


----------



## bearcat2002

Whenever I turn my home theater on I just love how my video looks. Have never regretted getting the RP and calibrated. Now with an automatic masking screen ordered, it’s gonna look even better!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aeneas01

probably a dumb question, but why is the envy housed in a 4u chasis while the rp is in a 1u box? is it because the envy depends on off the shelf video card(s) while the rp uses its own proprietary (and much smaller) processing card / chip?


----------



## woofer

docrog said:


> Is that your conclusion for the vast majority of HDR content or only in scenes with torture conditions? * My 127" 16:9 screen is larger in area compared with @asharma 125" scope screen *and I'd be hard pressed to find *ANY *typical HDR content where a side-by-side comparison would yield a difference that was "*quite large*". My RP was professionally calibrated by Craig R. (3D LUT) and the NX7 by Chad B., both of whom have stellar reputations, so I don't think that the lack of appreciable difference is caused by suboptimal calibration of the RP. To my eye, in my light controlled HT, the typical DTM difference has been minimal, at best. Also, I think that it's somewhat disingenuous to state that the RP is "set and forget" with regards to HDR. Many posters here have voiced preferences for DSAT, etc. based on content. I've found the JVC DTM to be approximately equal to the RP with regards to HDR "set and forget".



My screen is a 143" Scope....

Once i settled on my RP settings for DTM, i haven't once needed to "Tweak" or change anything and i watch a lot of varying content!

I do not have to look very hard to find instances to where the JVC DTM " comes undone".......IMO its is certainly not "Set and forget" .

You don't find a "Large" difference between the RP and the JVC DTM.....that's your observation and it perfectly valid .... I myself DO find a large difference between the 2.......again perfectly valid..


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

aeneas01 said:


> probably a dumb question, but why is the envy housed in a 4u chasis while the rp is in a 1u box? is it because the envy depends on off the shelf video card(s) while the rp uses its own proprietary (and much smaller) processing card / chip?


Because the MadVR envy uses off the shelf PC Parts including its case which is just a Silverstone Grandia case with a new metal plate at the front.


----------



## woofer

aeneas01 said:


> probably a dumb question, but why is the envy housed in a 4u chasis while the rp is in a 1u box? is it because the envy depends on off the shelf video card(s) while the rp uses its own proprietary (and much smaller) processing card / chip?


The Envy uses a full size ATX motherboard and corresponding PSU ...it also uses an "off the shelf" GPU .......actually some of the higher end RTX GPU,s will not actually fit in the current Envy case.


----------



## woofer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Because the MadVR envy uses off the shelf PC Parts including its case which is just a Silverstone Grandia case with a new metal plate at the front.


NO.... its not a new metal plate ( Facia) its the standard Silverstone facia with the Silverstone logo "Rubbed off" . The Envy logo is placed over the key/access hole on the front of the facia.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

woofer said:


> NO.... its not a new metal plate ( Facia) its the standard Silverstone facia with the Silverstone logo "Rubbed off" . The Envy logo is placed over the key/access hole on the front of the facia.


I thought it looked like a new plate. My mistake then.


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## woofer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I thought it looked like a new plate. My mistake then.


PM me you email and i will send you some pics..."IF" interested


----------



## Craig Peer

187crew003 said:


> I haven’t touched the settings for dsat etc in over two months (since the last dtm firmware came out). Not sure it gets more set it and forget it than that. Also I don’t remember many stating they change it based on content.


Can’t recall having to change any settings since the last major update. It might have been a year - been so long I can’t recall. It’s as perfect picture wise as I could ask for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## desray2k

DCI-P3 mode








(DCI-P3 mode with HDR flag turned “off”)

SDR 2020 mode / HDR "Off"








(SDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “off”)

SDR 2020 mode / HDR "On"








(SDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “on”)

Now here's the HDR 2020 mode which you guys mentioned too much "red" which I calibrated 2 weeks ago...

HDR 2020 mode / HDR "On"








(HDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “on”)

This is the *Disney Plus version* of Mulan. As you can see, there is a negligible difference between SDR 2020 and DCI-P3 mode with a very slight hint of color being more saturated on DCI-P3 mode if you look carefully. For the last pic, it is SDR 2020 mode with the HDR flag turned on. In all 3 screencaps, shadow details and sharpness are great.

So which one do you prefer? My favorite mode at the moment will be DCI-P3 followed by SDR 2020.


----------



## [email protected]

afternoon. Very long thread and havent been keeping up so if quick connection, I appreciate it. But have the Lumagen pro from beginnning and havent been updated but figure there are probably updated HDMi boards for it. I saw a new lumagen out as well so wondering if I can upgrade mine to meet current model or need to sell and get new one? ANy major differences besides number of inputs and outputs? Hardware or software benefits, etc? 

Also if anyone can refer me to someone to order upgrades or new machine if needed, I appreciate it. 

thanks, Robert


----------



## loggeo

desray2k said:


> DCI-P3 mode
> View attachment 3118269
> 
> (DCI-P3 mode with HDR flag turned “off”)
> 
> SDR 2020 mode / HDR "Off"
> View attachment 3118270
> 
> (SDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “off”)
> 
> SDR 2020 mode / HDR "On"
> View attachment 3118271
> 
> (SDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “on”)
> 
> Now here's the HDR 2020 mode which you guys mentioned too much "red" which I calibrated 2 weeks ago...
> 
> HDR 2020 mode / HDR "On"
> View attachment 3118272
> 
> (HDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “on”)
> 
> This is the *Disney Plus version* of Mulan. As you can see, there is a negligible difference between SDR 2020 and DCI-P3 mode with a very slight hint of color being more saturated on DCI-P3 mode if you look carefully. For the last pic, it is SDR 2020 mode with the HDR flag turned on. In all 3 screencaps, shadow details and sharpness are great.
> 
> So which one do you prefer? My favorite mode at the moment will be DCI-P3 followed by SDR 2020.


I am struggling to understand what exactly you are testing by using hdr flag. Are you double tone mapping? What is your projector?


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> DCI-P3 mode
> View attachment 3118269
> 
> (DCI-P3 mode with HDR flag turned “off”)
> 
> SDR 2020 mode / HDR "Off"
> View attachment 3118270
> 
> (SDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “off”)
> 
> SDR 2020 mode / HDR "On"
> View attachment 3118271
> 
> (SDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “on”)
> 
> Now here's the HDR 2020 mode which you guys mentioned too much "red" which I calibrated 2 weeks ago...
> 
> HDR 2020 mode / HDR "On"
> View attachment 3118272
> 
> (HDR 2020 mode with HDR flag turned “on”)
> 
> This is the *Disney Plus version* of Mulan. As you can see, there is a negligible difference between SDR 2020 and DCI-P3 mode with a very slight hint of color being more saturated on DCI-P3 mode if you look carefully. For the last pic, it is SDR 2020 mode with the HDR flag turned on. In all 3 screencaps, shadow details and sharpness are great.
> 
> So which one do you prefer? My favorite mode at the moment will be DCI-P3 followed by SDR 2020.


Honestly, I have no idea what you are comparing here. The descriptions make NO sense at all if you understand how the Radiance works.


----------



## Kris Deering

[email protected] said:


> afternoon. Very long thread and havent been keeping up so if quick connection, I appreciate it. But have the Lumagen pro from beginnning and havent been updated but figure there are probably updated HDMi boards for it. I saw a new lumagen out as well so wondering if I can upgrade mine to meet current model or need to sell and get new one? ANy major differences besides number of inputs and outputs? Hardware or software benefits, etc?
> 
> Also if anyone can refer me to someone to order upgrades or new machine if needed, I appreciate it.
> 
> thanks, Robert


Sent you a PM


----------



## Surge2018

desray2k said:


> Hi Surge2018, an interesting observation...so to you, neither is correct? If so, what will be the correct colors? Do you have this Tom and Jerry movie? Perhaps you can take a shot and show to us what constitute a correct color setting if properly calibrated...all in the name of learning
> 
> I do acknowledge that smart phone photography may not always reflect the most accurate representation of the actual image.


For sure, will do so shortl. Yes, any smartphone will auto-adjust exposure. I will take it without changing the exposure on my iPhone 12.


----------



## Surge2018

Kris Deering said:


> His screen is larger than yours because he is zoomed out to fill, so the pixels are slightly larger on his screen than yours. His screen is roughly the equivalent of a 133" diagonal 16x9 screen.
> 
> Also, with regards to set and forget, the only reason one would need to change a setting on the Lumagen tone mapping is because Lumagen did a change to how it works and settings need to be reconsidered based on improvements to processing. Once the proper settings are in place, the need for changing is nearly 0. This is definitely NOT the case with the JVC tone mapping. It is quite good, but it still requires somewhat regular intervention and even with that it still struggles with quite a bit of content that doesn't so much as cause a blip with the Lumagen tone mapping.


At least on Apple TV, you absolutely do need to occasionally change Lumagen’s DTM settings depending on content. It’s really just DynPad from my observations, and not a big deal. It takes about 2 seconds at the start of a film. It’s tied to the Apps on ATV. All iTunes content is consistent, but sometimes on Netflix, Amazon, or HBO, HDR content will require tweaking to DynPad or MaxLight. No question about that.
Unless you set MaxLight to a low value, so that all content looks good. But if you do that, you are ‘leaving ”light” on the table’, as you can get more range on certain content.

Example: Set MaxLight to the scene in The Meg so there‘s no clipping.
Then watch an iTunes HDR film, like Ford vs Ferrari, and it looks great.
Then watch an Apple TV+ series like Amazing Stories, and it’s too dark. Dropping DynPad from 5 to 2 usually does it; on rare occasions I will drop MaxLight.


----------



## desray2k

Surge2018 said:


> For sure, will do so shortl. Yes, any smartphone will auto-adjust exposure. I will take it without changing the exposure on my iPhone 12.


Looking forward to it


----------



## desray2k

loggeo said:


> I am struggling to understand what exactly you are testing by using hdr flag. Are you double tone mapping? What is your projector?





Kris Deering said:


> Honestly, I have no idea what you are comparing here. The descriptions make NO sense at all if you understand how the Radiance works.


Hi both, I'm just fooling around with the Radiance Pro settings here...and how it affects the overall HDR image. Nothing insidious


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

desray2k said:


> Hi both, I'm just fooling around with the Radiance Pro settings here...and how it affects the overall HDR image. Nothing insidious


SDR2020 with HDR flag off. Is the only correct option, unless you have new 4K JVC projector then you can have HDR flag on and adjust projector accordingly.


----------



## desray2k

Aaron Toulmin said:


> SDR2020 with HDR flag off. Is the only correct option, unless you have new 4K JVC projector then you can have HDR flag on and adjust projector accordingly.


Yep...I'm aware of that. Thanks!


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> Hi both, I'm just fooling around with the Radiance Pro settings here...and how it affects the overall HDR image. Nothing insidious


These settings make no sense to "fool around with" though; and if your intention is to truly calibrate them to compare then you need to calibrate both the projector and the radiance differently in each setting. Unless you fully calibrate the chain for each setting, there is no value whatsoever in flicking between them after calibration of one mode. Any significant differences observed on typical content without highly saturated colours (like the example image used) after such calibration would be down to mis-match between the settings and the display expectation (using SDRP3 without a LUT or P3 input mode, or incorrect gamma selection in display, or sending 2.4 gamma encoding when the display can only use PQ in that mode), or limitations in the display (eg a display that doesn't allow full output gamut or brightness without receiving PQ gamma and HDR flag, like a Benq PJ or LG TV). 

The settings shown go hand-in-hand with the behaviour of a particular display. So the only "interesting" thing to do is use a pattern generator function and meter to analyse how the display behaves in each mode, and pick the best one for your aims.

The basic requirement for optimal 3DLUT creation, for instance, is linear tracking RGB separation and linear gamut saturation tracking to the gamut edge, with as wide a gamut and as high contrast as possible. Additionally it doesn't really make sense to give away input value range; so it can make sense to pick an output mode such as SDR709 or SDRP3 instead of SDR2020.

If you are not 3DLUT calibrating, then the optimal option depends (assuming you're not brightness limited) on which of the combinations of Radiance output modes and projector input settings get you to most closely map to the standard that the Radiance thinks it is outputting. This allows you to see the full benefit of the tone mapping and the most accurate image.


----------



## ShaharT

I recently had to factory reset my Lumagen, so I need to run a calibration again. Sadly, my memory doesn't serve me well since the last time I've done that.

I'm asking here, and not in the Calman thread because folks here are friendly and helpful 

I'm using Jim's (strongly) recommended setting of outputting both SDR and HDR in an SDR2020 container for both CMS0 and CMS1, and my projector (Sony 995) is set up to a BT2020 colorspace.

When I start Calman, the first choice I'm presented with is the calibration target = target information. The options are between rec.709 or rec.2020. and D65 Whitepoint as the default for both options.

My guess is I should use rec.709 target, as my projector doesn't even cover the full P3 color space.
And that I should calibrate CMS0, and when I'm done, copy the result to CMS1 as well. And in CMS0 in addition to calibrating, also create a 1D and a 3D lut.

So the first question: am I correct that the target in Calman should be rec.709?

And the second question: do I need to turn off settings in the Lumagen prior to running calibration, and then turn them back on? I recall there was a discussion about this, but I can neither find it nor remember it from the last time I had calibrated. 

My recollection is that Jim said something about turning on (or not turning on) something in the Lumagen conversion settings, so the calibration can be even more accurate. I'll keep searching in this thread about this, but so far haven't found that discussion.

Many thanks!


----------



## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> SDR2020 with HDR flag off. Is the only correct option, unless you have new 4K JVC projector then you can have HDR flag on and adjust projector accordingly.


This is an over-simplification, but I think in general it is good advice.

If you are gamut limited to 709, or don't get enough brightness in modes that reach above 709, then SDR709 can be a better choice.
If you are 3DLUT calibrating, have a display with moderate P3 coverage but no 2020 capability, then SDRP3 can be a better choice.
If you have a display with a native P3 input mode, then SDRP3 can be a better choice.
If you have a display where the manufacturer has imposed illogical constraints on the links between display modes and output capabilites, then HDR2020 can be a better choice. Eg some Benq projectors that can't reach full colour gamut without receiving "HDR", some LG OLED displays that can't achieve full brightness without receiving "HDR".


----------



## docrog

Can anyone recommend a highly qualified professional calibrator (performing 3DLUT) who is proficient with the Radiance Pro who services the Southeast region of the US? Thanks!


----------



## Killroy

docrog said:


> Can anyone recommend a highly qualified professional calibrator (performing 3DLUT) who is proficient with the Radiance Pro who services the Southeast region of the US? Thanks!


I thought you said that Chad R calibrated your RP before?


----------



## docrog

Killroy said:


> I thought you said that Chad R calibrated your RP before?


No, my RP was initially calibrated by Craig Rounds in early 2020. He's based in Chicago and has been very limited in his travel due to the pandemic. Chad recently calibrated my NX7 after I changed bulbs, without the RP in the video chain because I had been hoping that Craig would be able to make a definite commitment to recalibrate my RP. It's now unclear when/if he will return in the near future, so I'm looking for an alternative calibrator who has somewhat similar RP immersion as Craig or Kris.


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen

*FW 031521*
- Posted 040221 
Fix for sometimes getting no audio on 9Ghz output card.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## aeneas01

it was easy to search a particular thread with the old avs forum software, how is this accomplished now? for example, i want to search this thread only (new lumagen radiance pro series) how do i go about it? fwiw i tried advanced search which didn't seem to help.... thanks!


----------



## MDesigns

aeneas01 said:


> it was easy to search a particular thread with the old avs forum software, how is this accomplished now? for example, i want to search this thread only (new lumagen radiance pro series) how do i go about it? fwiw i tried advanced search which didn't seem to help.... thanks!


Its too easy now 😃 Type what you want to the Search Community on top. Then click Search in this discussion.


----------



## asharma

does a 9 GHz output support 4k24 to 4k60 without any issues or is an 18Ghz output required? Thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

asharma said:


> does a 9 GHz output support 4k24 to 4k60 without any issues or is an 18Ghz output required? Thanks


60p output is dithered to 8 bit.


----------



## asharma

Kris Deering said:


> 60p output is dithered to 8 bit.


Hey Kris, sorry, a bit too technical for me...was that a yes 18G is required or No? Thanks man

edit: ok, googled...Assuming “dithered to 8 bit” as opposed to 10 bit or 12 bit means 9GHz is fine...?


----------



## carpantata

Radiance 4442 and JVC projector.

It's right?:
1º.- JVC AutoCAL
2nd.- ColourSpace 3D LUT

or directly (only) ColourSpace 3D LUT?

Greetings


----------



## Kris Deering

asharma said:


> Hey Kris, sorry, a bit too technical for me...was that a yes 18G is required or No? Thanks man
> 
> edit: ok, googled...Assuming “dithered to 8 bit” as opposed to 10 bit or 12 bit means 9GHz is fine...?


18 isn’t required but it means no compromise. Visually Lumagen claims they are indistinguishable.


----------



## loggeo

carpantata said:


> Radiance 4442 and JVC projector.
> 
> It's right?:
> 1º.- JVC AutoCAL
> 2nd.- ColourSpace 3D LUT
> 
> or directly (only) ColourSpace 3D LUT?
> 
> Greetings


Pick a mode that covers the gamut you want to calibrate to and has linear RGB separation. Do a 2 point grayscale calibration on your JVC. Pick a gamma on your projector closer to the target. Then run a display characterization on colorspace.


----------



## aeneas01

MDesigns said:


> Its too easy now 😃 Type what you want to the Search Community on top. Then click Search in this discussion.


ha ha, thanks!


----------



## Chronoptimist

I made a separate topic for this, but it did not get much attention - so I thought I would ask here.
The newer Lumagen devices (21XX and newer) appear to support up to a 120Hz output - though I believe this is limited to only 1080p.

Can they deinterlace 59i content directly to 119.88 FPS?
That would appear to be the only way to display mixed content types (common in many TV shows) without compromise:

23Hz would display film-type content correctly after 3:2 pulldown, but not video (dropped frames).
59Hz would display video-type content correctly, but not film (judder).
119Hz would be able to display both film and video content correctly, as well as film content with a video overlay.


----------



## jrp

*Chronoptimist:

The Radiance 2143, Radiance 2144, and all Radiance Pro models, support output at 1080p120. So you can set the output to 1080p120 and not have to change the output mode for 24 versus 60 Hertz (including interlaced) content for displays/projectors that support this rate.

We are evaluating if we can support 1080p120 as an input format for the Radiance Pro models, to support 120 Hertz for Gaming. Since games outputting at 120 Hertz are, as far as I know, actually rendered at 1080p, due to number of GPUs, in virtually all systems, outputting at 1080p120 from the PC to the Pro, and then 1080p120 from the Pro to the monitor, would make the 120 Hertz update rate available to gamers, without loss of fidelity (as long as rendering is at 1080p).

Have not had many requests to add 1080p120 as a source format for the Radiance Pro. So, if you want this on the potential feature list for the Radiance Pro, please chime in.*


----------



## Surge2018

From what I know, the new Sony and XBOX consoles do render games at 4K 120Hz (that are developed specifically for the PS5/XBX).
I suppose there haven’t been too many requests for this from this community because the new consoles are still hard to get, and because most/all 4K projectors are not 120Hz capable.
Jim, will the 5348 be able to handle 4K120?


----------



## blake

Surge2018 said:


> From what I know, the new Sony and XBOX consoles do render games at 4K 120Hz (that are developed specifically for the PS5/XBX).
> I suppose there haven’t been too many requests for this from this community because the new consoles are still hard to get, and because most/all 4K projectors are not 120Hz capable.
> Jim, will the 5348 be able to handle 4K120?


Does the 5348 utilize an hdmi 2.1 card ? 4K/120 is a 2.1 spec, so it would need this board at a minimum. 

I just setup my Xbox Series X at 4K/60 with my LRP 4244 and it is amazing ! But I am a casual gamer and probably wouldn’t appreciate the difference playing at 120hz. Plus my RS4500 maxes out at 60hz (which projectors do 4K/120 anyways ?)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> Does the 5348 utilize an hdmi 2.1 card ? 4K/120 is a 2.1 spec, so it would need this board at a minimum.
> 
> I just setup my Xbox Series X at 4K/60 with my LRP 4244 and it is amazing ! But I am a casual gamer and probably wouldn’t appreciate the difference playing at 120hz. Plus my RS4500 maxes out at 60hz (which projectors do 4K/120 anyways ?)
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It does not


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi
A note for users who use a sensor from Klein Instruments together with a Radiance Pro from Lumagen.
As a result of the expansion of the Radiance Pro from 8 to 10 virtual inputs (firmware >=011521), the RS232 command set has also been adapted. This leads to the fact that when using the ChromaSurf program, the Radiance is switched to input 10 when establishing a connection from ChromaSurf to the sensor, if the Radiance is connected via USB but not yet connected to a program. The reason is the automatic sensor search of Chromasurf, which sends an unfortunate byte to the Radiance.
Peter


----------



## bobof

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi
> A note for users who use a sensor from Klein Instruments together with a Radiance Pro from Lumagen.
> As a result of the expansion of the Radiance Pro from 8 to 10 virtual inputs (firmware >=011521), the RS232 command set has also been adapted. This leads to the fact that when using the ChromaSurf program, the Radiance is switched to input 10 when establishing a connection from ChromaSurf to the sensor, if the Radiance is connected via USB but not yet connected to a program. The reason is the automatic sensor search of Chromasurf, which sends an unfortunate byte to the Radiance.
> Peter


I've never understood why anyone thinks trying to do autodetection of devices on serial ports can be considered a sensible thing to do...
ArgyllCMS used to also have similar issues which would do unfortunate things on the Lumagen UI.


----------



## OMARDRIS

But this is also due to the fact that the Radiance normally works without a delimiter at RS232 and is therefore very easy to control, but also reacts very sensitively.
There are always two sides to everything.
The Radiance is very easy to control, but a wrong character is enough to cause chaos.
I can still remember the alpha test of ColourSpace, where the absence of a character in the command chain triggered the funniest things in the Radiance. Switching to 480p was the most harmless thing.
Meanwhile I use my own class "RADICheck" to avoid such conflicts.
Peter


----------



## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> From what I know, the new Sony and XBOX consoles do render games at 4K 120Hz (that are developed specifically for the PS5/XBX).
> I suppose there haven’t been too many requests for this from this community because the new consoles are still hard to get, and because most/all 4K projectors are not 120Hz capable.
> 
> Jim, will the 5348 be able to handle 4K120?


No current Radiance Pro (4XXX or 5XXX) can support 4k120 due to the HDMI chips used and bandwidth in the memories.

On 4k rendering: What I was told is that it is possible to render 4k120, until quality is turned up and then rendering backs off to 1080. This is not completely new data and it is certainly possible the new platforms have overcome this limitation.

Do either the PS5 or XBX report the rendering resolution rather than the output resolution? It would be interesting to know if they are truly rendering at 4k120 with quality knobs turned up. It would be great if they can do this.


----------



## garyolearysteele

jrp said:


> Do either the PS5 or XBX report the rendering resolution rather than the output resolution? It would be interesting to know if they are truly rendering at 4k120 with quality knobs turned up. It would be great if they can do this.


It depends on the game, a lot of games use dynamic rendering resolution which varies it up and down depending on how taxing a particular scene is. Add to that they can use different techniques to output 4K such as checkerboard and temporal injection which is title by title also. There are more options than there used to be in console gaming but nothing like PC, most of the time you won’t know unless you consult Digitalfoundry (Digital Foundry - 4K gaming videos to remix & analyze.) who do the pixel counting and analysis for you.


----------



## bjorg

OMARDRIS said:


> But this is also due to the fact that the Radiance normally works without a delimiter at RS232 and is therefore very easy to control, but also reacts very sensitively.
> There are always two sides to everything.
> The Radiance is very easy to control, but a wrong character is enough to cause chaos.
> I can still remember the alpha test of ColourSpace, where the absence of a character in the command chain triggered the funniest things in the Radiance. Switching to 480p was the most harmless thing.
> Meanwhile I use my own class "RADICheck" to avoid such conflicts.
> Peter


I can lock up both my RPs on demand by doing the following exchange over the COM/USB port:

Connect with a COM terminal: screen /dev/ttyUSB0 9600
Send command to show detected signal: ZQI23
That command returns the information below. It works fine even when sent a second time.
Now switch resolutions by playing a movie that has a different frame rate.
Result: output signal goes away!
Oddly, if I switch inputs, I can still see the command coming through in the terminal (e.g. i5), but the RP output is basically dead until I reboot the unit.










Does that sound familiar? It's happening on 2 units using 2 different approaches. I'm at a loss what I'm doing wrong...


----------



## docrog

Despite having updated to the most current firmware, my JVC NX7 *ALWAYS* displays 1000/400 nits from the RP for HDR content, irrespective of the actual nits of the source material. When the RP is removed, the NX7 shows the appropriate source nits. For example, Mad Max: Fury Road shows a MaxCLL of 9913 on the RP information p. 2, but shows as 1000 MaxCLL in the NX7 info screen, but correctly shows as 9913 when the RP is removed from the video stream. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?


----------



## MOberhardt

bobof said:


> I've never understood why anyone thinks trying to do autodetection of devices on serial ports can be considered a sensible thing to do...
> ArgyllCMS used to also have similar issues which would do unfortunate things on the Lumagen UI.


Tell me about it. It is ridiculous. I deal a lot with serial hardware devices and the amount of software support issues we'd get due to scale feeds not being opened due to moronic UPS software continually scanning (ie opening and LOCKING) the serial ports was ridiculous.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Despite having updated to the most current firmware, my JVC NX7 *ALWAYS* displays 1000/400 nits from the RP for HDR content, irrespective of the actual nits of the source material. When the RP is removed, the NX7 shows the appropriate source nits. For example, Mad Max: Fury Road shows a MaxCLL of 9913 on the RP information p. 2, but shows as 1000 MaxCLL in the NX7 info screen, but correctly shows as 9913 when the RP is removed from the video stream. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?


You asked this about a month ago and someone mentioned that even if you turn off dynamic tone mapping, static tonemapping is still happening. 

Have you disabled all forms of tonemapping? What does the jvc report then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> You asked this about a month ago and someone mentioned that even if you turn off dynamic tone mapping, static tonemapping is still happening.
> 
> Have you disabled all forms of tonemapping? What does the jvc report then?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This discrepancy was present when DTM was enabled (RP being fully utilized in video stream) and persists when dynamic tone mapping is disabled (RP theoretically in "bypass" mode). I'm unaware of any control to deactivate any other form of tone mapping. It has yet to be explained to me why the RP indicates to the NX7 that the nits are always 1000/400 in my system and I'd truly appreciate it if another RP owner with a current model JVC NX/RS PJ could indicate whether this is true for their system as well.


----------



## SJHT

bjorg said:


> I can lock up both my RPs on demand by doing the following exchange over the COM/USB port:
> 
> Connect with a COM terminal: screen /dev/ttyUSB0 9600
> Send command to show detected signal: ZQI23
> That command returns the information below. It works fine even when sent a second time.
> Now switch resolutions by playing a movie that has a different frame rate.
> Result: output signal goes away!
> Oddly, if I switch inputs, I can still see the command coming through in the terminal (e.g. i5), but the RP output is basically dead until I reboot the unit.
> 
> View attachment 3119656
> 
> 
> Does that sound familiar? It's happening on 2 units using 2 different approaches. I'm at a loss what I'm doing wrong...


I do a lot of serial commands and today my unit fired up enough to trigger my AVP via the 5348 trigger, but there was no picture. Went to my stack to look and the unit was off and couldn’t be turned on via serial. Had to pull the power and then all was OK. Wonder if something was introduced in the latests updates. I will do some more checking.


----------



## Chronoptimist

jrp said:


> Chronoptimist:
> 
> The Radiance 2143, Radiance 2144, and all Radiance Pro models, support output at 1080p120. So you can set the output to 1080p120 and not have to change the output mode for 24 versus 60 Hertz (including interlaced) content for displays/projectors that support this rate.


Thank you for the information on the Radiance models.
My question was really about how they handle deinterlacing when a 120Hz output is selected (119.88Hz).

Film-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 23p using 3:2 pull-down at 23Hz.
Video-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 59p at 59Hz.
That is fine for sources which only use a single content type - you won't have a problem displaying either.

But I've found that many TV shows mix film and video content together - and I've yet to find any deinterlacer which produces more than a 59.94 FPS output.
If that is doubled to 120Hz, you end up with the film content displayed using a 6:4 cadence, rather than 5:5.
You would have to deinterlace directly to 119.88 FPS to display a mixture of film-type content (5:5) and video-type content (2:2) without judder or dropped frames.

Can the Radiance do this?



jrp said:


> We are evaluating if we can support 1080p120 as an input format for the Radiance Pro models, to support 120 Hertz for Gaming. Since games outputting at 120 Hertz are, as far as I know, actually rendered at 1080p, due to number of GPUs, in virtually all systems, outputting at 1080p120 from the PC to the Pro, and then 1080p120 from the Pro to the monitor, would make the 120 Hertz update rate available to gamers, without loss of fidelity (as long as rendering is at 1080p).
> 
> Have not had many requests to add 1080p120 as a source format for the Radiance Pro. So, if you want this on the potential feature list for the Radiance Pro, please chime in.


Though I would not be opposed to its inclusion, I suspect that 1080p120 input support on the Radiance would have limited use.

My 1080p120 projector has only 8ms of latency. I've read that the Radiance Pro adds about 24ms (though that was from 2017).
While improved tone mapping and calibration would be nice, I don't know that I'd want four times the latency in games for that. 32ms is what we were dealing with many years ago.

The consoles do not switch their output resolution based on the source - they automatically scale everything.
That means you would have to manually switch between 1080p120 and 4K60 every time with an HDMI 2.0 4K display, and that you are relying on the display to scale up the 1080p input - which can add latency.
There are already some 1440p120 and 4K120 games, too.

The new big thing for gaming is variable refresh rate (VRR) support.
This synchronizes the refresh rate to the frame rate (which is rarely constant) for much smoother motion, and reduced latency.
A fixed 1080p120 output is really only there for people using older displays. Anyone buying a new display for PC gaming or a PlayStation 5 / Xbox Series X will be using 4K120 VRR via HDMI 2.1 (once Sony enables VRR support, that is).


----------



## MOberhardt

Chronoptimist said:


> Thank you for the information on the Radiance models.
> My question was really about how they handle deinterlacing when a 120Hz output is selected (119.88Hz).
> 
> Film-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 23p using 3:2 pull-down at 23Hz.
> Video-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 59p at 59Hz.
> That is fine for sources which only use a single content type - you won't have a problem displaying either.
> 
> But I've found that many TV shows mix film and video content together - and I've yet to find any deinterlacer which produces more than a 59.94 FPS output.
> If that is doubled to 120Hz, you end up with the film content displayed using a 6:4 cadence, rather than 5:5.
> You would have to deinterlace directly to 119.88 FPS to display a mixture of film-type content (5:5) and video-type content (2:2) without judder or dropped frames.
> 
> Can the Radiance do this?
> 
> 
> Though I would not be opposed to its inclusion, I suspect that 1080p120 input support on the Radiance would have limited use.
> 
> My 1080p120 projector has only 8ms of latency. I've read that the Radiance Pro adds about 24ms (though that was from 2017).
> While improved tone mapping and calibration would be nice, I don't know that I'd want four times the latency in games for that. 32ms is what we were dealing with many years ago.
> 
> The consoles do not switch their output resolution based on the source - they automatically scale everything.
> That means you would have to manually switch between 1080p120 and 4K60 every time with an HDMI 2.0 4K display, and that you are relying on the display to scale up the 1080p input - which can add latency.
> There are already some 1440p120 and 4K120 games, too.
> 
> The new big thing for gaming is variable refresh rate (VRR) support.
> This synchronizes the refresh rate to the frame rate (which is rarely constant) for much smoother motion, and reduced latency.
> A fixed 1080p120 output is really only there for people using older displays. Anyone buying a new display for PC gaming or a PlayStation 5 / Xbox Series X will be using 4K120 VRR via HDMI 2.1 (once Sony enables VRR support, that is).


??? Maybe have a read on HDCP / Handshaking all works. What happens if you plug a HDCP 2.2 output device into a HDCP 2.1 device? The hdmi output device will drop to 2.0 compatability, and send 1080p sdr. Same deal with plugging a HDCP 2.3 player into a HDCP 2.2 device (lumagen). It will drop back to HDCP 2.2 level. Likewise when the Lumagen (HDCP 2.2) outputting into an old HDCP 2.1 or 2.0 1080p display. It will drop to the lower level.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Now my calibrator have calibrated Lumagen but unfortunately mostly the projector and we didnt manage as we wanted at all...

1. Put CMS0 in BT2020 and no auto conversion not a problem and the using CalMan and no problem to get a color gamut but then the problem started. We needed to lower the brightness of primary and secondary colors, but there is nowhere that can be done in Lumagen as what w found out so that had to be done in VW790 instead
2. Fantastic Greyscale fine tuning possibilities, really nice.
3. After half way trough we wanted to see the result of having CMS0 and 1 in BT2020 and auto w to be e done in CMS0 to BT709, the in signal was BT709 but the output BT2020, I restarted several times and also saved the configuration several times without any success, still 709 in and 2020 out. The whole day we know have spent seem to be pointless and I have to back to the old solution and not use BT2020 for both CMS0 and 1 as Jim recommends.

Do you guys have any comments on why there is no way to change the brightness of the colors in Lumagen when there is so nice finetuning with for example greyscale? And why isn't auto convert bt2020 to 709 working?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Peter Larsson


----------



## PeterLarsson

I think I have found the problem to not be able to get hold go each color in CMS0 since I compared CMS0 with CMS1 and found out that color gamut was 17*17*17 in CMS0 and 8 points in CMS1 and then all the primary.and secondary colors are there, problem solved.

However, please take a look at the below pics, even if incoming signal is BT709 and auto version is enabled still output in BT2020 and I can figure out why the auto conversion is not working properly.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Guys, need some help. I am getting no picture through my Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446-18G which I recently added to my setup.

Here is My setup

Nvidia Shield/Roku/BD Player -> JBL SDP 55 --> Input 1 - Lumagen - Output 2 -> JVC Projector.

All I am getting is black screen. Audio is working, I can see the Lumagen menu but no video. I have already tried switching sources, rebooting source, prepro and Lumagen with no success. If I bypass the Lumagen and connect the source directly to Prepro, it works and similarly if I connect the source to Input 1 of Lumagen, I get the picture.

Clearly the issue is between Prepro and Lumagen but I am not sure how to troubleshoot or fix it. My Lumagen was setup by Chad B and I am going to coordinate some time where he can help me troubleshoot it but I thought maybe I should check here in the forum too. It was working fine when he did the demo but somehow once I restarted the system, all I am getting is this. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or tips!





















Bypassing prepro


----------



## jtjjen

Based on your screen shot, output 1 is audio only. Try output 4.

John

Edit: I misread the output you are using - output 2 should work.


----------



## Bumper

How long is your HDMI cable between the prepro and the Lumagen? Recommended is 2 mtr. It is stated that shorter cables may not work. But probably you should get an intermittend picture orso so probably this is not your problem.

Not sure, but you have 4096x2160 selected. Shouldn't that be 3840x2160? Or do you have a Sony and use 17:9 as output?

Snippet:
Short HDMI cables that are 1 meter (3 feet) long can cause problems. Most HDMI transmitter chips have a built in equalizer circuit that boosts the signal level to compensate for losses in the cable. A cable that is too short, can deliver a signal that is too strong, and overwhelm the input of the HDMI receiver chip. If you have short HDMI cables and are experiencing intermittent problems, a longer cable can make a more reliable connection. It’s a good practice to use good quality generic HDMI cables that are a minimum length of 2 meters (6 foot) long.


----------



## SJHT

Good idea showing the info screen. If you can see it, then the issue is usually between the Lumagen and the source. If you can’t, more likely between the Lumagen and the display.... SJ


----------



## jamesmil

In the case of Xbox Series consoles, they support setting a 1080p120 or 1440p120 system output on HDMI 2.0b when the display supports it. 4k120 requires HDMI 2.1. My understanding is PlayStation 5 is more complicated, with 120hz modes being game dependent, and not always supported at 1080p.


----------



## jrp

PeterLarsson said:


> ... However, please take a look at the below pics, even if incoming signal is BT709 and auto version is enabled still output in BT2020 and I can figure out why the auto conversion is not working properly.


As I just sent in an email, and for the benefit of others:

The Radiance Pro doing exactly what you programmed it to do.

If you want the CMS0 (used for SDR) to output Rec Bt.709, you need to change the Output.CMSs.CMS0.Colorspace = SDR709. You have it selected as “SDR2020” which means it outputs Rec 2020.

Make sure to Save any changes you want to be permanent.


----------



## PeterLarsson

jrp said:


> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.


This is actually exacly what I wanted to achieve, one calibration for BT2020 and then CMS0 to auto convert to 709 when receiving a SDR signal - so frankly dont follow the reasoning behind "it does what is programmed for" it doesn't auto convert in my case,


----------



## MDesigns

PeterLarsson said:


> This is actually exacly what I wanted to achieve, one calibration for BT2020 and then *CMS0 to auto convert to 709(Why?)* when receiving a SDR signal - so frankly dont follow the reasoning behind "it does what is programmed for" it doesn't auto convert in my case,


You have setup the Lumagen to output SDR BT2020. When it receives BT2020 signal it outputs BT2020 signal. When it receives Rec709 signal it auto converts it to BT2020 signal.

IMO that is just what you need if you want to use only BT2020 calibration in the projector. You dont want to convert anything to Rec709(smaller colorspace), SDR signal is already Rec709.

Or is it something else you want to achieve? Maybe you can more clear of how you want it to work so others can help.


----------



## PeterLarsson

MDesigns said:


> You have setup the Lumagen to output SDR BT2020. When it receives BT2020 signal it outputs BT2020 signal. When it receives Rec709 signal it auto converts it to BT2020 signal.
> 
> IMO that is just what you need if you want to use only BT2020 calibration in the projector. You dont want to convert anything to Rec709(smaller colorspace), SDR signal is already Rec709.
> 
> Or is it something else you want to achieve? Maybe you can more clear of how you want it to work so others can help.


What I understood after reading Jims recommendation is that he now recommend only one colorspace for both SDR and HDR and that is of course BT2020. I did exactly as described - turning off auto convert when calibrating (pointed to CMS0) and calibrate BT2020 and that is just what we did yesterday. After completion I should set auto convert back and copy CMS0 to CMS1, which I did to be able to use only one calibration for both SDR and HDR. 

My assumption was that if the receiving in signal is 709 SDR Lumagen would then convert the calibrated BT2020 for both CMS0 and 1 to BT709 when receiving that signal in CMS0. That has been my understanding the whole time that after Jims recommendation (shown below) that this was the result. What good would it be if the in signal is BT709 SDR and get that converted to BT2020? That would not be good I assume or that how that the whole idea is built on?



jrp said:


> Make sure "2020 < -- > 601/709 = Auto Convert, and HDR Flag = Off, for both CMS0 and CMS1.
> 
> The Radiance Pro will convert data from one format to display correctly in the other. In our Lumagen Demo Theater using the JVC RS4500 on a Stewart Studio Tek 130, I have CMS0=CMS1=SDR2020 for output and it works great. This also allows one calibration for both SDR and HDR content.



So to conclude: I was after Jims recommendation as shown below under the impression that Calibrate to BT2020 for CMS0 and copy that to CMS1 and then you can use that one calibration for both SDR and HDR. So if receiving a 709 signal would the colors and greyscale be correct if Lumagen converts that to BT2020. If that was the whole idea then I have misunderstood the whole concept.

Thanks a lot for explaining!


----------



## MDesigns

PeterLarsson said:


> So to conclude: I was after Jims recommendation as shown below under the impression that Calibrate to BT2020 for CMS0 and copy that to CMS1 and then you can use that one calibration for both SDR and HDR.* So if receiving a 709 signal would the colors and greyscale be correct if Lumagen converts that to BT2020. If that was the whole idea then I have misunderstood the whole concept.*
> 
> Thanks a lot for explaining!


That was the whole idea. You do a single BT2020 calibration and Lumagen always outputs BT2020. What ever comes in, be it HDR/SDR/709/2020, Lumagen auto converts it correctly to SDR BT2020 output.

So it doesn't "convert the calibration" if thats what you meant, it auto converts the incoming video signal to the chosen output colorspace.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Thanks a million, I must be seen as the dumbest in Sweden right now, I totally misunderstood the whole concept. 

The question that I ask myself if not the wider color gamut and the calibrated greyscale for bt2020 could be "distorted" when converting bt709 to bt2020? I mean my display Sony VW790 only support perhaps around 75--80% of the bt2020 gamut, Will the colors really look accurate by doing the conversion between 709 to 2020? 

Thanks again!


----------



## MDesigns

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks a million, I must be seen as the dumbest in Sweden right now, I totally misunderstood the whole concept.
> 
> The question that I ask myself if not the wider color gamut and the calibrated greyscale for bt2020 could be "distorted" when converting bt709 to bt2020? I mean my display Sony VW790 only support perhaps around 75--80% of the bt2020 gamut, Will the colors really look accurate by doing the conversion between 709 to 2020?
> 
> Thanks again!


No problem!  BT709 only uses small part of the BT2020 colorspace so it fits nicely inside it. I am sure that the Lumagen can handle that conversion without any distorsion or other problem, that's one of the things its made for. *--> Also read the disclaimers couple posts down, it might not be so perfect I thought.*


----------



## jqmn

PeterLarsson said:


> Will the colors really look accurate by doing the conversion between 709 to 2020?


 IMHO the colors will look "accurate" because you won't know what they are supposed to be unless you meter them. That is what happens when you look at BT2020 films since the projector can't do either BT2020 (not close) or P3 space in BT2020 (closer but still not there). This is the compromise. You might want to attempt to calibrate the P3 space within the BT2020 cube. This will get you a lot closer to "accurate".


----------



## MDesigns

jqmn said:


> IMHO the colors will look "accurate" because you won't know what they are supposed to be unless you meter them. That is what happens when you look at BT2020 films since the projector can't do either BT2020 (not close) or P3 space in BT2020 (closer but still not there). This is the compromise. You might want to attempt to calibrate the P3 space within the BT2020 cube. This will get you a lot closer to "accurate".


If he has calibrated BT2020, why wouldn't a smaller BT709 be shown correctly since it fits in this colorspace and the projectors colorspace? Do you think a DCI-P3 calibration would make a difference that can be seen?


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks a million, I must be seen as the dumbest in Sweden right now, I totally misunderstood the whole concept.
> 
> The question that I ask myself if not the wider color gamut and the calibrated greyscale for bt2020 could be "distorted" when converting bt709 to bt2020? I mean my display Sony VW790 only support perhaps around 75--80% of the bt2020 gamut, Will the colors really look accurate by doing the conversion between 709 to 2020?
> 
> Thanks again!


Level of success depends on how well your "2020" display mode (+ optionally 3DLUT) tracks 2020, and then 709 within 2020.
If you've used a 3DLUT to map 2020 to the display then it should be pretty good, though you won't have 3DLUT control points exactly on the 709 gamut edges, so you may lose a bit of absolute accuracy there.
If you haven't got a 3DLUT then you will be at the total mercy of the tracking of the projector display mode. Which may or may not be great. 

You can either trust that it tracks 709-in-2020 well, or measure it. When you get as far into it as measuring whether 2020 mode tracks 709-in-2020 well, I think you almost might as well be doing a proper 3DLUT for each if you're doing a 3DLUT for 2020. That then gives you a bit more flexibility with display modes. On my projector, for instance, the colour shifts a bit as the iris opens, and so if you want it as accurate as possible you need separate calibrations for the two iris positions.


----------



## jqmn

MDesigns said:


> If he has calibrated BT2020, why wouldn't a smaller BT709 be shown correctly since it fits in this colorspace and the projectors colorspace? Do you think a DCI-P3 calibration would make a difference that can be seen?


Yes, BT709 is well within the 2020 colorspace but the software has to make a LOT more choices/compromises to get the 2020 space in shape overall. Limiting its choices to a smaller area gives you better accuracy even though it isn't accurate. I have found that you can nail a Rec709 calibration (until drift) in these units doing it alone. Anything else is a compromise so at least my attitude is to get the effective space as close as I can which is P3 in 2020 for the majority of 4K content.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Bumper said:


> How long is your HDMI cable between the prepro and the Lumagen? Recommended is 2 mtr. It is stated that shorter cables may not work. But probably you should get an intermittend picture orso so probably this is not your problem.
> 
> Not sure, but you have 4096x2160 selected. Shouldn't that be 3840x2160? Or do you have a Sony and use 17:9 as output?
> 
> Snippet:
> Short HDMI cables that are 1 meter (3 feet) long can cause problems. Most HDMI transmitter chips have a built in equalizer circuit that boosts the signal level to compensate for losses in the cable. A cable that is too short, can deliver a signal that is too strong, and overwhelm the input of the HDMI receiver chip. If you have short HDMI cables and are experiencing intermittent problems, a longer cable can make a more reliable connection. It’s a good practice to use good quality generic HDMI cables that are a minimum length of 2 meters (6 foot) long.



I don't think its the cable as it was working without issue when the calibration was done.

My Setup is JVC RS2000 with DCR lens and anamorphic screen.


----------



## mindedc

nonstopdoc1 said:


> I don't think its the cable as it was working without issue when the calibration was done.
> 
> My Setup is JVC RS2000 with DCR lens and anamorphic screen.


If you can clearly see the lumagen menu cable is not your issue, at least at the current rate/resolution.

I have a similar setup to you with older JVC (RS540). I do have the sister product to the SDP-55, the AudioControls Maestro. I also use a Shield TV for streaming (current gen) and use a Kodi device. I have seen this issue from time to time with both sources, it's mostly when I've been messing with the setup. I sometimes have to unplug/replug some of the HDMI interfaces. First I would see if the menu or the volume display on the SDP 55 comes up when you have the blank screen. I have mine turned off so that the aspect ratio doesn't jump back to 16:9 when adjusting volume so I have to turn mine on. That will tell you if you're good to the JBL. If that fails, I would unplug BOTH ends of the cable between the JBL and the Lumagen. If it works I would unplug BOTH ends of the JBL to source and see if you get a picture. The JBL/Maestro to source leg is what usually fixes it for me.

If you find a reliable sequence that causes the condition I would reach out to Lumagen, they fixed pretty bad issues with some of the behavior on the Shield for me (which you will undoubtedly benefit from). It is very rare I deal with this now, generally only when I'm changing things around in the rack.

The shield can be super picky about the EDID. I have another setup in another room with a HDFury device for audio offload and I can't get it to work with any of the hdfury provided EDIDs, I have to pass through the actual source's EDID. If there were any EDID modifications that could cause an issue with the Shield. I've never had that problem with the Lumagen but I know you can mess with some of those settings. You may want to save a backup and factory default the lumagen to see if that's the issue. I would get some tech support from lumagen if you're going to do that.

The Roku was very weird and picky. It only worked reliably if I connected it directly to the projector via a 2m cable, even through an otherwise good HDMI cable and without the lumagen in the signal path it was still problematic. I don't think I've gone back to it since moving to a Ruipro fiber HDMI cable. I have rokus on my other TVs as they are easiest to integrate with Control 4 and no problems with any other units. 

I have a Samsung K8500 BD player and this is the one thing that's been completely bulletproof with the lumagen... seems like it always works.

If you continue to have the problem, post a screenshot of your info screen (ok button while menu off) so we can see what the lumagen thinks its seeing.


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## nonstopdoc1

mindedc said:


> If you can clearly see the lumagen menu cable is not your issue, at least at the current rate/resolution.
> 
> I have a similar setup to you with older JVC (RS540). I do have the sister product to the SDP-55, the AudioControls Maestro. I also use a Shield TV for streaming (current gen) and use a Kodi device. I have seen this issue from time to time with both sources, it's mostly when I've been messing with the setup. I sometimes have to unplug/replug some of the HDMI interfaces. First I would see if the menu or the volume display on the SDP 55 comes up when you have the blank screen. I have mine turned off so that the aspect ratio doesn't jump back to 16:9 when adjusting volume so I have to turn mine on. That will tell you if you're good to the JBL. If that fails, I would unplug BOTH ends of the cable between the JBL and the Lumagen. If it works I would unplug BOTH ends of the JBL to source and see if you get a picture. The JBL/Maestro to source leg is what usually fixes it for me.


Thank you!

I realized that it happened after I updated my JBL to most recent FW. Chad B calibrated the whole thing and it was working great. Sources -> SDP-55 -> Lumagen -> RS2000. After he left, I updated my JBL's FW to the most recent one and turned it off. Next day when I turned it on, all I got is black screen with working Lumagen menus.

The issue is clearly between DSP-55 and Lumagen but I am not sure what it is and how to fix it. Chad recommended to reload the configuration file he gave me which I will try to do but for now I have connected my sources directly to Lumagen and bypassed the prepro.


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## mindedc

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I realized that it happened after I updated my JBL to most recent FW. Chad B calibrated the whole thing and it was working great. Sources -> SDP-55 -> Lumagen -> RS2000. After he left, I updated my JBL's FW to the most recent one and turned it off. Next day when I turned it on, all I got is black screen with working Lumagen menus.
> 
> The issue is clearly between DSP-55 and Lumagen but I am not sure what it is and how to fix it. Chad recommended to reload the configuration file he gave me which I will try to do but for now I have connected my sources directly to Lumagen and bypassed the prepro.


I'm currently on 1.45, I see for AudioControls 1.47 is out, arcam AV40 shows 1.46 as does JBL... If I can find changelog and it looks like anything important is fixed (bass in DTS please!!) I'll upgrade and let you know how it went... I hate doing it because I have to reload Dirac curves each time...


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I realized that it happened after I updated my JBL to most recent FW. Chad B calibrated the whole thing and it was working great. Sources -> SDP-55 -> Lumagen -> RS2000. After he left, I updated my JBL's FW to the most recent one and turned it off. Next day when I turned it on, all I got is black screen with working Lumagen menus.
> 
> The issue is clearly between DSP-55 and Lumagen but I am not sure what it is and how to fix it. Chad recommended to reload the configuration file he gave me which I will try to do but for now I have connected my sources directly to Lumagen and bypassed the prepro.


Have you tried running all your sources into the lumagen then splitting it out to the processor/projector.


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## Technology3456

If one had a TV or projector with fundamentally bad motion presentation, because of the hardware, would the Lumagen processing have an effect on making the motion better, in addition to taking away image noise, and making colors better, and all the things I am aware of that it can do? Or is motion not something that the Lumagen can really improve, at least not on displays that have fundamental issues in how they present motion?

Like, the Lumagen can't make an LCD TV have motion smooth the same way as CRT or even plasma, right? Or can it even do that too?


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## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> If one had a TV or projector with fundamentally bad motion presentation, because of the hardware, would the Lumagen processing have an effect on making the motion better, in addition to taking away image noise, and making colors better, and all the things I am aware of that it can do? Or is motion not something that the Lumagen can really improve, at least not on displays that have fundamental issues in how they present motion?
> 
> Like, the Lumagen can't make an LCD TV have motion smooth the same way as CRT or even plasma, right? Or can it even do that too?


Lumagen does not do motion interpolation, so can't really help you with that. It also doesn't do noise reduction on the current Pro line.


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## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen does not do motion interpolation, so can't really help you with that. It also doesn't do noise reduction on the current Pro line.


Sorry not motion interpolation. And my mistake about image noise. But as for motion, I meant, does it make the motion better at 24hz? Like if I watch a 24hz UHD disc on an LCD TV without a Lumagen, and I watch the same disc on the same LCD TV this time with a Lumagen, will the motion look better with the Lumagen?


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## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> Sorry not motion interpolation. And my mistake about image noise. But as for motion, I meant, does it make the motion better at 24hz? Like if I watch a 24hz UHD disc on an LCD TV without a Lumagen, and I watch the same disc on the same LCD TV this time with a Lumagen, will the motion look better with the Lumagen?


It will look the same. Lumagen does nothing for motion.


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## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> It will look the same. Lumagen does nothing for motion.


Since it's such a good processor, it wouldnt surprise me if it had some secondary effect that by cleaning up other things in the still images, the motion also looks a little better, but thank you for answering honestly and informing me that has no explicit feature or algorithm that could correct bad motion on the hardware level of a display.


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## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> Since it's such a good processor, it wouldnt surprise me if it had some secondary effect that by cleaning up other things in the still images, the motion also looks a little better, but thank you for answering honestly and informing me that has no explicit feature or algorithm that could correct bad motion on the hardware level of a display.


More often than not motion issues are related to the display technology. Typically displays have some kind of different drivers to help with this (motion interpolation) to varying degrees but YMMV.


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## Reddig

Does a Lumagen Radiance Pro need a hard wired internet connection or is it ok on Wi/Fi? Getting my theater ready for one soon.


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## Aaron Toulmin

Reddig said:


> Does a Lumagen Radiance Pro need a hard wired internet connection or is it ok on Wi/Fi? Getting my theater ready for one soon.


It doesn't have any internet connection. But i would add ethernet over wifi everytime.


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## Reddig

Aaron Toulmin said:


> It doesn't have any internet connection. But i would add ethernet over wifi everytime.


Ok thanks. Do they get updates thru USB or what’s that situation?


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## Reddig

Aaron Toulmin said:


> It doesn't have any internet connection. But i would add ethernet over wifi everytime.


I’m only physical media in my theater. WiFi has sufficed for updates on other gear. In my living room where I stream on my Oled I have cable ran to it.


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## Killroy

Reddig said:


> Ok thanks. Do they get updates thru USB or what’s that situation?


It comes with a USB cable that you use to update the firmwares. A bit slow since it uses COM but the updates are not very big. Takes less than a couple of minutes.


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## Reddig

Killroy said:


> It comes with a USB cable that you use to update the firmwares. A bit slow since it uses COM but the updates are not very big. Takes less than a couple of minutes.


Cool thanks Killroy.👍🏻


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## Kris Deering

Reddig said:


> Does a Lumagen Radiance Pro need a hard wired internet connection or is it ok on Wi/Fi? Getting my theater ready for one soon.


Work with your dealer on this. Too many don't support the product and provide info on the how to's. There is a reason they make money when they sell a product, make them earn it!


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## Reddig

Kris Deering said:


> Work with your dealer on this. Too many don't support the product and provide info on the how to's. There is a reason they make money when they sell a product, make them earn it!


Thanks Kris. Good advice.


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## Karl Maga

Kris Deering said:


> Work with your dealer on this. Too many don't support the product and provide info on the how to's. There is a reason they make money when they sell a product, make them earn it!


 My Lumagen dealer gives great support! I thank you for that Kris.


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## Reddig

Reddig said:


> Thanks Kris. Good advice.


@Kris Deering As of now I actually don’t have a specific dealer for a Lumagen. My projector dealer ended up leaving a lot to be desired so I was actually going to reach out to you or Nigel once I was ready buy. I’ll send you a PM in a few days with some basic questions. Thanks


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## Steve Bruzonsky

With the regular Lumagen Radiance Pro line, there is no ethernet connection. You download the update file on your computer. I have a laptop, connect USB cable to Radiance Pro, and perform the update.

My understanding is the new 5348 model has an option at extra cost for I beiieve a wi-fi connection,but in my discussion with Jim Peterson months ago, if my memory is any good, its only use is to update firmware, and it will inject at least a bit of extra noise into the unit so unless you must have it for convenience, better to update using a laptop like I do


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## Reddig

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> With the regular Lumagen Radiance Pro line, there is no ethernet connection. You download the update file on your computer. I have a laptop, connect USB cable to Radiance Pro, and perform the update.
> 
> My understanding is the new 5348 model has an option at extra cost for I beiieve a wi-fi connection,but in my discussion with Jim Peterson months ago, if my memory is any good, its only use is to update firmware, and it will inject at least a bit of extra noise into the unit so unless you must have it for convenience, better to update using a laptop like I do


Cheers good to know 👌


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## bobof

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> With the regular Lumagen Radiance Pro line, there is no ethernet connection. You download the update file on your computer. I have a laptop, connect USB cable to Radiance Pro, and perform the update.
> 
> My understanding is the new 5348 model has an option at extra cost for I beiieve a wi-fi connection,but in my discussion with Jim Peterson months ago, if my memory is any good, its only use is to update firmware, and it will inject at least a bit of extra noise into the unit so unless you must have it for convenience, better to update using a laptop like I do


The 5348 has an optional wired ethernet variant which will be available at some point (it's not available yet). I don't think any wifi variant is planned.
Anyone buying a 5348 can opt to get it with the ethernet bottom case, which has a bit larger cutout around the USB, so that you can replace the board behind it with an ethernet-capable board once it is available. Without having the ethernet bottom case the whole unit will be RTB I believe as all the boards will have to be swapped into a new bottom case.

I'm pretty sure that the ethernet port will need to be able to do all the control too and not just the FW update, as it actually replaces the USB port completely (though I believe the RS232 is left in place).

There are more details in the 5348 intro doc:


http://lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_5348_Introduction.pdf





> *Does the 5348 have a LAN interface?*
> The initial version of the Radiance Pro 5348 will have the same RS232 plus USB (USB to RS232 internally) connections. This is the same as the Radiance Pro 4XXX models. This is nomenclated as the Radiance Pro 5348-USB. One of the 5348 design changes is that the 5348 can support a Lantronix XPort Ethernet-toRS232 interface on the small 5348 microprocessor daughter card. Note that the XPort LAN connection would replace the USB port. We have yet to get this implemented, other than basic RS232 commands from a PC using a hyper terminal. We are new to having a LAN interface, so we do not yet know what is practical to accomplish using the XPort. Our goal is to at a minimum allow the same virtual COM port function for PC interface, and software updates, that the USB interface currently provides. We also believe we can set it up to receive IP commands to the Radiance Pro 5348 through the XPort. Not sure what additional features we will support. Please be patient as we further explore options using the XPort LAN interface.
> 
> *If I buy the 5348-USB version can I later upgrade to the 5348-LAN version when, and if, it comes out?*
> If you buy the 5348-USB and tell us in your order you want the option to upgrade to the LAN interface, we will use the case bottom sized for the LAN port connection. You could later purchase the LAN version of the microprocessor board, and then swap out the microprocessor board in the field for one with the XPort option. This is a straight-forward task and almost identical to swapping an I/O card in the 4XXX units.
> 
> If you do not order the 5348-USB with the LAN case, you can still upgrade. You would send the unit in for us to do the change. In addition to the charge for the new microprocessor board, we would charge for the LAN case bottom and the labor to do the swap.


----------



## Roland Janus

would it be technically possible for the pro to do motion interpolation?


----------



## Craig Peer

What's the next major improvement coming - the 12 bit pipeline improvement?


----------



## bjorg

Craig Peer said:


> What's the next major improvement coming - the 12 bit pipeline improvement?


🤞 Yes, yes, pretty please!


----------



## Surge2018

Reddig said:


> Ok thanks. Do they get updates thru USB or what’s that situation?


The new 5348 are Ethernet ready. It will be an add-on in the future.


----------



## MOberhardt

Roland Janus said:


> would it be technically possible for the pro to do motion interpolation?


Hmm, given this is a high end device for basically giving the best true reproduction of what is there, not making up images that aren't, I wouldn't have thought I was in a minority here thinking motion interpolation is an utter abomination.


----------



## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> Hmm, given this is a high end device for basically giving the best true reproduction of what is there, not making up images that aren't, I wouldn't have thought I was in a minority here thinking motion interpolation is an utter abomination.


Motion interpolation is an utter abomination. No !


----------



## CP850-CLED

I like the Young and the Restless, MCFI, please!


----------



## bjorg

MOberhardt said:


> Hmm, given this is a high end device for basically giving the best true reproduction of what is there, not making up images that aren't, I wouldn't have thought I was in a minority here thinking motion interpolation is an utter abomination.


It has its uses. For animation, which is usually 12 FPS, it can reduce the stuttering considerably on high-nit devices like LED walls. That said, my guess is that the RadiancePro does not have enough compute power for it. Not by a long shot if you want a quality results at 4K resolution.


----------



## Technology3456

bjorg said:


> It has its uses. For animation, which is usually 12 FPS, it can reduce the stuttering considerably on high-nit devices like LED walls. That said, my guess is that the RadiancePro does not have enough compute power for it. Not by a long shot if you want a quality results at 4K resolution.


How much processing power is needed for something like that, of high quality at 4K, plus CMS, etc? Im unfamiliar with home theater processors but in PC GPU terms. Would a 2080 card be able to do all that if the Lumagen used a 2080? 3060TI? 3070? 3080? Those cards can run intensive video games at top settings like 4K 50fps or so. Is frame interpolation and CMS really that much more intensive?

And those cards retailed at like $500 when released. If a processor developer bought them in bulk for their processors, it might have been $350. So if these cards could do the job, is it too much to ask that a $7,000 processor includes a $350 GPU, when that is one of the most important pieces? Then a few hundred for the CPU, other parts maybe $500 - $1000 total, so the box has $1000 - $1,500 in parts but sells for $7,000. Seems reasonable and doable for the next generation of processors if these ones don't already have it. But it's also very possible I am missing a key element of what goes into it, so I'm not claiming to be correct, I'm just sharing my thinking about it based on what I understand so far, and asking to learn more.


----------



## Killroy

Technology3456 said:


> How much processing power is needed for something like that, of high quality at 4K, plus CMS, etc? Im unfamiliar with home theater processors but in PC GPU terms. Would a 2080 card be able to do all that if the Lumagen used a 2080? 3060TI? 3070? 3080? Those cards can run intensive video games at top settings like 4K 50fps or so. Is frame interpolation and CMS really that much more intensive?
> 
> And those cards retailed at like $500 when released. If a processor developer bought them in bulk for their processors, it might have been $350. So if these cards could do the job, is it too much to ask that a $7,000 processor includes a $350 GPU, when that is one of the most important pieces? Then a few hundred for the CPU, other parts maybe $500 - $1000 total, so the box has $1000 - $1,500 in parts but sells for $7,000. Seems reasonable and doable for the next generation of processors if these ones don't already have it. But it's also very possible I am missing a key element of what goes into it, so I'm not claiming to be correct, I'm just sharing my thinking about it based on what I understand so far, and asking to learn more.


You are correct... you do not know anything about VPs. The Lumagen does not use PC GPU's for processing. It is a completely different architecture. It can't use them and for the love of gawd, I hope they never do.

If that's what you want you need to go look at the MadVR Envy which costs between $8000-12,000. And if you think that a $350 GPU can do all that then you are 100% wrong. The Envy uses RTX 2070, 2080, and soon 3080s. Those cost of upwards of $1200 if you can even find them that cheap. Last time I checked a 3080 is selling for over $2500.

Sorry, I digress.


----------



## Technology3456

Killroy said:


> You are correct... you do not know anything about VPs. The Lumagen does not use PC GPU's for processing. It is a completely different architecture. It can't use them and for the love of gawd, I hope they never do.
> 
> If that's what you want you need to go look at the MadVR Envy which costs between $8000-12,000. And if you think that a $350 GPU can do all that then you are 100% wrong. The Envy uses RTX 2070, 2080, and soon 3080s. Those cost of upwards of $1200 if you can even find them that cheap. Last time I checked a 3080 is selling for over $2500.
> 
> Sorry, I digress.


Thanks for explaining. It doesn't have to be a base 3080 but something of equivalent power and price that is for processors instead of computers. But if that doesn't exist then I fully retract my idea, and thanks for explaining why it won't work. As I said in the post, I was wondering about this idea so I explained it for the purpose of learning more, not because I thought "for sure this will work." I explained it so I could understand if it would or not, and why not.


----------



## bjorg

Radiance Pro uses an FPGA, which is not as powerful as a GPUs in raw processing power, but has many other advantages. Ultimately, it comes down to how you wield the hardware and the good folks at Lumagen have shown they know how to do that. I'm looking forward to their 12bit pipeline improvement, which should provide some dramatic increase in picture fidelity.


----------



## Bumper

bjorg said:


> Radiance Pro uses an FPGA, which is not as powerful as a GPUs in raw processing power, but has many other advantages. Ultimately, it comes down to how you wield the hardware and the good folks at Lumagen have shown they know how to do that. I'm looking forward to their 12bit pipeline improvement, which should provide some dramatic increase in picture fidelity.


Is that 12bit going to be on a new hardware or can this be done on the current models with new firmware?


----------



## Kris Deering

Bumper said:


> Is that 12bit going to be on a new hardware or can this be done on the current models with new firmware?


Current models with new firmware.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> Current models with new firmware.


The beauty of FPGAs! Reprogrammable hardware on demand!


----------



## D.Newman

I recently added a Radiance Pro to my home theater setup. I'm primarily using a Roku Ultra, which has issues with my 9GHz limited Sony VPL-VW665ES projector, banding galore. RP fixed the banding, the image is looking far better. But now I have a couple of new issues, that only occur when using the RP. The projector can lose sync if there is a sudden dark to bright scene change. This happens whether the projector is handling the HDR or the Radiance Pro is doing HDR to SDR conversion and tone mapping. This instability has occurred with almost everything I've tried, it seems my projector is not stable with 16x9 4K60 output from RP for these particular scene transitions. Weirdly I have not had any issues with 2.35:1 sources, is this a clue?

A potential solution was to drop down to 24p output for the large range of 24p content. Setting the output to 4Kp24, from the 4K60 input form Roku works, the projector is stable. However, the Radiance Pro doesn't seem to correctly do 3:2 pull-down detection, as some content will randomly present at 12Hz, i.e. when you get the pulldown totally wrong. As there is no documentation on the pull-down detection, so it might be a setup issue.

In summary, I need help on:
1) 4K60 projector sync issues that occur with dark to bright scene changes (happens once or twice an hour.)
2) How to set up pull-down detection to correctly extract 24p from 4Kp60?

Thanks,
David


----------



## MDesigns

D.Newman said:


> I recently added a Radiance Pro to my home theater setup. I'm primarily using a Roku Ultra, which has issues with my 9GHz limited Sony VPL-VW665ES projector, banding galore. RP fixed the banding, the image is looking far better. But now I have a couple of new issues, that only occur when using the RP. The projector can lose sync if there is a sudden dark to bright scene change. This happens whether the projector is handling the HDR or the Radiance Pro is doing HDR to SDR conversion and tone mapping. This instability has occurred with almost everything I've tried, it seems my projector is not stable with 16x9 4K60 output from RP for these particular scene transitions. Weirdly I have not had any issues with 2.35:1 sources, is this a clue?
> 
> A potential solution was to drop down to 24p output for the large range of 24p content. Setting the output to 4Kp24, from the 4K60 input form Roku works, the projector is stable. However, the Radiance Pro doesn't seem to correctly do 3:2 pull-down detection, as some content will randomly present at 12Hz, i.e. when you get the pulldown totally wrong. As there is no documentation on the pull-down detection, so it might be a setup issue.
> 
> In summary, I need help on:
> 1) 4K60 projector sync issues that occur with dark to bright scene changes (happens once or twice an hour.)
> 2) How to set up pull-down detection to correctly extract 24p from 4Kp60?
> 
> Thanks,
> David


I think you need to change the Roku to output 24p(or whatever the source is) or get another source device that can if it can't do it.

For sync issues the general answer is hdmi cable. What cables you have?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I’m just trying to add the lumagen radiance pro to my harmony remote. Anyone know which one is appropriate for radiance pro 4444


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## bferbrache

Radiance XD will work fine


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## Karl Maga

bferbrache said:


> Radiance XD will work fine





Aaron Toulmin said:


> I’m just trying to add the lumagen radiance pro to my harmony remote. Anyone know which one is appropriate for radiance pro 4444


Radiance XD is what I use, has been good to go for the year I’ve used this setup.


----------



## D.Newman

MDesigns said:


> I think you need to change the Roku to output 24p(or whatever the source is) or get another source device that can if it can't do it.
> 
> For sync issues the general answer is hdmi cable. What cables you have?


While a cable issue is possible, the cable hasn't changed, it is the same installed through the wall 4 years ago when the projector was fitted, only the Radiance Pro was added. Bypass the RP and the problem goes away. Having the Roku, and other devices, switch modes based on source, while a good idea for quality, it is a bad user experience on the projector resyncing. As the RP is supposed to have 3:2 pull-down detection, this should have been the better solution, yet that is not working, with or without a cable replacement. Any ideas on how to make the pulldown removal work?


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> The beauty of FPGAs! Reprogrammable hardware on demand!





D.Newman said:


> While a cable issue is possible, the cable hasn't changed, it is the same installed through the wall 4 years ago when the projector was fitted, only the Radiance Pro was added. Bypass the RP and the problem goes away. Having the Roku, and other devices, switch modes based on source, while a good idea for quality, it is a bad user experience on the projector resyncing. As the RP is supposed to have 3:2 pull-down detection, this should have been the better solution, yet that is not working, with or without a cable replacement. Any ideas on how to make the pulldown removal work?


Just because a cable worked fine before doesn't mean it won't be an issue with the Lumagen. The Lumagen runs at the highest edge rates, so cables tend to be an issue. I see this ALL THE TIME with clients that say "it worked before, so it should work now" but that is just not the reality. I fix 99.9% of these issues for my clients by having them install cables that I know work.


----------



## Karl Maga

Kris Deering said:


> Just because a cable worked fine before doesn't mean it won't be an issue with the Lumagen. The Lumagen runs at the highest edge rates, so cables tend to be an issue. I see this ALL THE TIME with clients that say "it worked before, so it should work now" but that is just not the reality. I fix 99.9% of these issues for my clients by having them install cables that I know work.


I will add that I had a perfectly good, working HDMI cable running from my Marantz 8805 to my JVC NX7, but it would not work with the Radiance Pro. I bought all new cables for source and to projector from Kris’ recommended list, and have NEVER had another issue thereafter.

I did not spend a lot on these cables, but they made a difference.


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> would it be technically possible for the pro to do motion interpolation?


@Jim, can you add something?
I disagree with the soap effect. On the Sony's, the lower modes are pretty good imo, to my eyes at least.
Could it be done with 1080p input, before it gets upscaled to 4K?


----------



## D.Newman

Yes will be trying a new certified cable when it arrives tomorrow. However, please don't miss the second part of my question, why does the 3:2 pull-down not work correctly on the Radiance Pro? The projector works fine at 24p, and I would like to use 4kP60 outputs from all my sources (see reasons above), detect the 3:2 cadence, and deliver native 24p to the projector. Most sources I watch are at 24/23.976, so the pulldown detection should be straight forward. Even if the source was 30 or 60p, it should working better than it does now. I've had that working 15+ years ago: CineForm tools had pull-down detection for encoding 24p from 60i/p sources over HDSDI (visual processing, no metadata needed.) I figure I'm missing a control, as this should be straight forward for such a powerful device.


----------



## Kris Deering

D.Newman said:


> Yes will be trying a new certified cable when it arrives tomorrow. However, please don't miss the second part of my question, why does the 3:2 pull-down not work correctly on the Radiance Pro? The projector works fine at 24p, and I would like to use 4kP60 outputs from all my sources (see reasons above), detect the 3:2 cadence, and deliver native 24p to the projector. Most sources I watch are at 24/23.976, so the pulldown detection should be straight forward. Even if the source was 30 or 60p, it should working better than it does now. I've had that working 15+ years ago: CineForm tools had pull-down detection for encoding 24p from 60i/p sources over HDSDI (visual processing, no metadata needed.) I figure I'm missing a control, as this should be straight forward for such a powerful device.


This is more of a question for Jim but I have to ask, why do this at all? Why not have the source device delivery the native frame rate of the content and avoid 2 conversion (first to 60 and then back to 24)?? Just seems like you're adding processing for no reason at all and could eliminate the potential for so many other problems.


----------



## D.Newman

Kris Deering said:


> This is more of a question for Jim but I have to ask, why do this at all? Why not have the source device delivery the native frame rate of the content and avoid 2 conversion (first to 60 and then back to 24)?? Just seems like you're adding processing for no reason at all and could eliminate the potential for so many other problems.


The projector re-syncing is the issue. When I run native frame rate, the UI for Netflix, HBOMax etc, will typically run at 60fps, then the program might run at 24, the screen is black for 10+ seconds. Sometimes pausing will flip back to 60. It is far too annoying. With pulldown detection, you always input at 60 and can optional output at 24 (as a user control.) I thought this was a common thing, as this was necessary as part of production filmmaking, I would have thought it was equally useful for presentation. The algorithm is simple.


----------



## fatherom

Roland Janus said:


> @Jim, can you add something?
> I disagree with the soap effect. On the Sony's, the lower modes are pretty good imo, to my eyes at least.
> Could it be done with 1080p input, before it gets upscaled to 4K?


That's not Jim's handle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

D.Newman said:


> The projector re-syncing is the issue. When I run native frame rate, the UI for Netflix, HBOMax etc, will typically run at 60fps, then the program might run at 24, the screen is black for 10+ seconds. Sometimes pausing will flip back to 60. It is far too annoying. With pulldown detection, you always input at 60 and can optional output at 24 (as a user control.) I thought this was a common thing, as this was necessary as part of production filmmaking, I would have thought it was equally useful for presentation. The algorithm is simple.


I really don't understand. If the issue is just this black screen dislike, AND you are wanting the projector to have a motion interpolated 3:2 pull down 60p signal, why are you using native framerate on the source? I take it you are talking appleTV or nvidia shield? Why not set them to perform the interpolation, which is their default configuration? 

Seriously, if Lumagen wasted a second implementing 3:2 pull down generation, I'd be pretty disappointed.


----------



## D.Newman

If I could force all may sources to 24p, I would try that. It is not an option. All sources can do 60, adding 24 with a 3-2 cadence at the source. This is easy and reasonably low CPU to reverse. So you get a stable projector, no re-syncs, you also get a true 24 presentation, rather than looking at a pulldown cadence (if the projector can't generate a true 24 from 60, which I expect it can't in many scenarios.) As I have 9GHz projector, this will also allow deeper color to be presented. This seems completely inline with Lumagen's mission.


----------



## MOberhardt

D.Newman said:


> If I could force all may sources to 24p, I would try that. It is not an option. All sources can do 60, adding 24 with a 3-2 cadence at the source. This is easy and reasonably low CPU to reverse. So you get a stable projector, no re-syncs, you also get a true 24 presentation, rather than looking at a pulldown cadence (if the projector can't generate a true 24 from 60, which I expect it can't in many scenarios.) As I have 9GHz projector, this will also allow deeper color to be presented. This seems completely inline with Lumagen's mission.


Ah right so you are talking more 60p to 24p conversion? I guess it may be able to do that, but I guess then the question is is there anything in a 60p signal that identifies it as 3:2 pulldown 60p or native 60p? Or would you need to have it comare the frames and see if it was detecting frame doubling (which would then introduce a video delay?). And then what would it do with native 60p?


----------



## D.Newman

Correct, now you're getting it. It shouldn't introduce any frame delays. Currently the Radiance Pro you can force 24p output and it's currently just choosing the wrong frames (randomly.) Correctly detecting the cadence, through metadata, or through frame duplication, just allows you to choose the correct frames to present 24p. As an engineer I've had to do this, extracting 24P from the Panasonic Varicam about 15+ years ago (24 was over 60p HDSDI.) If you feed true 60, there is no cadence to detect, so it will do what is does now.


----------



## jrp

D.Newman said:


> ... In summary, I need help on:
> 1) 4K60 projector sync issues that occur with dark to bright scene changes (happens once or twice an hour.)
> 2) How to set up pull-down detection to correctly extract 24p from 4Kp60?
> 
> Thanks,
> David


1) The solution for this is almost certainly ... wait for it ... a better/different HDMI cable from the Pro to the projector.

The "wait for it" is for all those who have been on this thread for a while and know it is (almost) always the cable that needs to be changed out to cure dropouts.

I did not see which cable you are using, but the RUIPRO fiber (amazon.com) is a good and inexpensive cable for the long run to the projector. Of course if that is what you have you already have a good cable.

You should also test with the Pro set to 9 GHz output rate as some Sony projectors can have issues with the faster edge rates out of the Pro at 18 GHz. Note that the edge rates at 9 GHz are the same, but the rate reduction can help Sony projectors lock on. With the Radiance Pro's IMO excellent dither, I could not find a difference viewing 4k60 HDR content between 9 GHz, 8-bit, 4:2:0, and 18 GHz, 12-bit, 4:2:2. So out of the Pro IMO 9 GHz is an excellent option.

Even if you do not want to stay at 9 GHz out of the Pro, it is good to know if it gets you a stable image.

If you have question or want help with this please contact lumagen.com on our support email.

2) We have not implemented 60 to 24 inverse-telecine. Honesty, I cannot recall any requests for it in the past four years. Might have been but I do not remember any.

Having 60 to 24 inverse-telecine is a completely valid request, and it is on our "to do" list. Of course, if content providers and streamers did what they are supposed to do, this would be moot since 24 Hertz content would be transmitted at 24 Hertz.

The 60 to 24 Hertz inverse-telecine is not a priority feature. We prioritize feature requests based on the number of owners requesting it, and weigh in how much work it would be to add. So like when these potential features have come up in the past, _if_ you really want 60 to 24 inverse telecine to be prioritized, please chime in. As always if a number of people want this, we will look and see if we can move it up the priority list.

As a reminder our current priority is working on the pipeline precision enhancements. We have made some progress on this, but have also had other work creep in (more DTM scenes to work on, revisions for 5348, and a few bug fixes).


----------



## MOberhardt

D.Newman said:


> Correct, now you're getting it. It shouldn't introduce any frame delays. Currently the Radiance Pro you can force 24p output and it's currently just choosing the wrong frames (randomly.) Correctly detecting the cadence, through metadata, or through frame duplication, just allows you to choose the correct frames to present 24p. As an engineer I've had to do this, extracting 24P from the Panasonic Varicam about 15+ years ago (24 was over 60p HDSDI.) If you feed true 60, there is no cadence to detect, so it will do what is does now.


OK now I understand. If it could detect and fix 24p material that has been mangled into 60p by some abominable streaming service, that would be a great feature.

I'm not sure in my Lumagen environment if I wouldn't encounter any (most of my viewing is disc based, and any streaming is via an Apple TV with match framerate and the only services I use are Apple and very occasionally Amazon prime). The only sync handshake irritations I get on that it how apple does source direct, so watching an episode at 24p and then between it switches to 60 etc.

That said, if the Lumagen did it, I'd turn on the feature!


----------



## D.Newman

Thank you Jim for your detailed response. I will try the 9GHz switch again tonight, and tomorrow I will try a replacement Ultra High Speed certified cable. You now have two requests for inverse-telecine. I understand that it would not be the most requested feature, partly as you have to know that it exists to want it. Super geeky to understand the potential; I qualify as I had to develop a DirectShow filter for inverse-telecine in the mid-2000s.

-David


----------



## bobof

D.Newman said:


> Yes will be trying a new certified cable when it arrives tomorrow. However, please don't miss the second part of my question, why does the 3:2 pull-down not work correctly on the Radiance Pro? The projector works fine at 24p, and I would like to use 4kP60 outputs from all my sources (see reasons above), detect the 3:2 cadence, and deliver native 24p to the projector. Most sources I watch are at 24/23.976, so the pulldown detection should be straight forward. Even if the source was 30 or 60p, it should working better than it does now. I've had that working 15+ years ago: CineForm tools had pull-down detection for encoding 24p from 60i/p sources over HDSDI (visual processing, no metadata needed.) I figure I'm missing a control, as this should be straight forward for such a powerful device.


I know you've implemented it before, so I'm sure you're aware Inverse telecine is something that is a bit more complicated when you're not dealing with a pure broadcast signal out of a camera. As soon as you have any on screen graphics (such as OSD overlay from a streamer, broadcast video graphics overlay on 24p source that had been pulled down, etc) then those graphics will break the 3:2 frame cadence, which makes the algorithms needed to lock onto cadence a fair bit more complicated. There were quite a few test discs with various clips that would trip up implementations of varying levels of capability back in the day. 

The old Radiance units had a Gennum VXP which could do this processing fairly well (tasks were split between the Gennum and the FPGA). The Radiance pro is a pure FPGA design, and I don't think the functionality is missed enough by anyone to care.

Back in the day when I cared about such things, HQV had pretty much achieved the pinnacle of performance in this respect. These days it's a feature which has mostly fallen to display manufacturers to incorporate, and most displays can do this, so it's probably best done in the display, and many people shun because even now the detection isn't always perfect. 

Consumer gear is far, far less precise in its output, and it's not uncommon for the 3:2 cadence in a device to only be approximate or to have cyclic issues where the source content is actually 24.00 and it is being output at 59.94 or 23.976 at 60.00. These usually pass unnoticed because 3:2 is already a rubbish video experience (for anyone who grew up on perfect PAL cadence), but as soon as you have an algorithm that has to lock / unlock to a cadence where there may frequently be breaks in cadence with 3:3:3 or 3:2:2 sneaking in you're in for a glitchy experience.

Personally I opt for the resync every time, and I think many choose to do the same.


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## D.Newman

bobof said:


> I know you've implemented it before, so I'm sure you're aware Inverse telecine is something that is a bit more complicated when you're not dealing with a pure broadcast signal out of a camera.


Yes, I've implemented this to deal with bad source and overlays. We had to deal with TV productions that used pulldown content within their edits, so the cadence could change from edit to edit. So we saw some 24p productions, that edited at 60i (old days) and added their titles at 60i. Productions that bad are rare, but that was solvable. More commonly the cadence breaks with commercial insertion. When XBox Live first provided HD TV content (I think even before Netflix was online) that was all 720p24, extracted from D5 1080i60 masters as a real-time ingest, my filter had to handle to reasonably well. So if any developer needs pointers, I'm happy to see what I can remember.

My engineering background is in video compression, the inverse telecine I worked on was developed to make compression more efficient. Microsoft was a customer of our compression system, which is how I was involved with HD content over XBox Live.


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## MOberhardt

bobof said:


> <snip>
> 
> Personally I opt for the resync every time, and I think many choose to do the same.


My interest isn't in resync removal - I'd prefer native source frame rate and resync for everything. My interest is more if a provider ruins a 24p source by turning it into 3:2/60p, it'd be great if it played at 24p. I don't think it is an issue on the Apple TV for streaming services, but I know a common issue on every streamer other than the two known source direct streamers (ATV and Shield), all external streamers, the apps on blu ray players, the apps on TVs, that they force stuff to 60p, so you watch any movie on these devices and you get 60p/3:2. And for all I know, some services on the ATV and Shield don't honor source direct - I don't watch enough , and as I mentioned all my streamed viewing is itunes direct and prime.


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## bobof

D.Newman said:


> Yes, I've implemented this to deal with bad source and overlays. We had to deal with TV productions that used pulldown content within their edits, so the cadence could change from edit to edit. So we saw some 24p productions, that edited at 60i (old days) and added their titles at 60i. Productions that bad are rare, but that was solvable. More commonly the cadence breaks with commercial insertion. When XBox Live first provided HD TV content (I think even before Netflix was online) that was all 720p24, extracted from D5 1080i60 masters as a real-time ingest, my filter had to handle to reasonably well. So if any developer needs pointers, I'm happy to see what I can remember.
> 
> My engineering background is in video compression, the inverse telecine I worked on was developed to make compression more efficient. Microsoft was a customer of our compression system, which is how I was involved with HD content over XBox Live.


I think the issue of the integer vs non-integer rates causing issues is far greater of an issue these days than the bad edit type scenarios. There are lots of broken players, and players that only support one or other set of rates (it has taken 3 years to get Apple to add the integer rates to AppleTV). Netflix now are mandating all content ingesting at filmed rate, so many 24.00p titles are happening, and many players just can't play them right.

Personally I think these pulldowns are backwards-looking solutions, so my preference would be new forward looking features over sticking plasters for slow syncing displays or bad input hardware. There are now good players out there, so just use them, and better lobbying the player app makers that don't support rate matching APIs properly.

But good luck, if you can get enough demand the guys at Lumagen have shown time and time again that they do listen.


----------



## bobof

MOberhardt said:


> My interest isn't in resync removal - I'd prefer native source frame rate and resync for everything. My interest is more if a provider ruins a 24p source by turning it into 3:2/60p, it'd be great if it played at 24p. I don't think it is an issue on the Apple TV for streaming services, but I know a common issue on every streamer other than the two known source direct streamers (ATV and Shield), all external streamers, the apps on blu ray players, the apps on TVs, that they force stuff to 60p, so you watch any movie on these devices and you get 60p/3:2. And for all I know, some services on the ATV and Shield don't honor source direct - I don't watch enough , and as I mentioned all my streamed viewing is itunes direct and prime.


The chances are such a player device is crap in other respects too, and the better app-specific solution is to lobby the app vendor.

For most displays you will have the option of enabling this inverse telecine in the display itself (I know the JVC projectors have it). I hate this kind of thing at the best of times, but I doubly dislike the idea of precious effort spent on it when the display itself already likely have a solution that is "good enough" given it's already a crappy situation if you're having to do this. But as above, if enough folk are interested above other features I'm sure the Lumagen guys will listen.


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## Surge2018

D.Newman said:


> The projector re-syncing is the issue. When I run native frame rate, the UI for Netflix, HBOMax etc, will typically run at 60fps, then the program might run at 24, the screen is black for 10+ seconds. Sometimes pausing will flip back to 60. It is far too annoying. With pulldown detection, you always input at 60 and can optional output at 24 (as a user control.) I thought this was a common thing, as this was necessary as part of production filmmaking, I would have thought it was equally useful for presentation. The algorithm is simple.


Is your video running from the source to the Lumagen and then direct to the Sony? I had re-syncing delays with my Sony 995 when I had the AVR connected in between the Lumagen and the Sony. The recommended setup is to run video out of the Lumagen directly into the display.


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## Ediddy

Ordered a new Lumagen 4244 18gb to go with my JVC NX7 and Da Lite 119 inch screen. Been waiting for this day a long time.


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## D.Newman

Surge2018 said:


> Is your video running from the source to the Lumagen and then direct to the Sony? I had re-syncing delays with my Sony 995 when I had the AVR connected in between the Lumagen and the Sony. The recommended setup is to run video out of the Lumagen directly into the display.


Running directly. So far no glitches with a new cable.


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## Aaron Toulmin

Is this the cable that is recommended between sources and lumagen


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## Bill DePalma

Hi
i am new owner of a Lumagen 4242. Everything is working great with the exception of lip syncing problems with an Apple 4k tv box running Plex. The Lumagen is an 18ghz unit on inputs and out. I am running the Lumagen after source outputs and then sending a Marantz Pre/Pro the audio feed from the Lumagen. All cables are 2 meter 18ghz certified. I am only seeing the sync issue with Plex on the Apple box. I cannot seem to change the problem from within the Marantz by changing its delay controls. (Also I cannot see the Marantz menu with the Lumagen in the chain) I also have a Nvidia Shield running the same Plex client without any audio issues. Since there are no controls on the Apple box for audio sync and the Lumagen only works with delayed audio not, in my case delayed video, I am not sure what to do. Thoughts?


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## Karl Maga

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Is this the cable that is recommended between sources and lumagen
> 
> View attachment 3123149


This is exactly what I use, and was recommended to me by Kris D. I literally have never had an issue.


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## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> Hi
> i am new owner of a Lumagen 4242. Everything is working great with the exception of lip syncing problems with an Apple 4k tv box running Plex. The Lumagen is an 18ghz unit on inputs and out. I am running the Lumagen after source outputs and then sending a Marantz Pre/Pro the audio feed from the Lumagen. All cables are 2 meter 18ghz certified. I am only seeing the sync issue with Plex on the Apple box. I cannot seem to change the problem from within the Marantz by changing its delay controls. (Also I cannot see the Marantz menu with the Lumagen in the chain) I also have a Nvidia Shield running the same Plex client without any audio issues. Since there are no controls on the Apple box for audio sync and the Lumagen only works with delayed audio not, in my case delayed video, I am not sure what to do. Thoughts?


I am unable to adjust the Marantz and perhaps fix my lip sync issue with the Lumagen in the video chain since it does seem to like the low res menu overlay output by the Marantz. Since I dont have a visual menu to adjust I cannot judge if I am fixing the sync problem. Is there a setting within the Lumagen that might be more forgivable and display the low res menu. Setting the output on the Lumagen to 1080?


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## aguy

Wondering if there is a shortcut to reset an input card ? 

I use the Alt prev to reset my output card on occasions because a rate change causes a loss of sync. What I’m wondering is if there is a similar shortcut to reset an input card. Trouble that I am having is that on occcasion my ps4 seems glitchy and freezes every second or so. I’ve determined that resetting the output card doesn’t fix it but turning the lumagen off and then on again does fix it so it seems it is happening on the input side. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mark_H

Bill DePalma said:


> Hi
> i am new owner of a Lumagen 4242. Everything is working great with the exception of lip syncing problems with an Apple 4k tv box running Plex. The Lumagen is an 18ghz unit on inputs and out. I am running the Lumagen after source outputs and then sending a Marantz Pre/Pro the audio feed from the Lumagen. All cables are 2 meter 18ghz certified. I am only seeing the sync issue with Plex on the Apple box. I cannot seem to change the problem from within the Marantz by changing its delay controls. (Also I cannot see the Marantz menu with the Lumagen in the chain) I also have a Nvidia Shield running the same Plex client without any audio issues. Since there are no controls on the Apple box for audio sync and the Lumagen only works with delayed audio not, in my case delayed video, I am not sure what to do. Thoughts?


This is an AppleTV issue. Very annoyingly, most of the apps on that platform have different lipsyncs which need correcting. As you note yourself, the Shield has same lipsync across all apps, so the easy solution is to ditch the AppleTV and move to the Shield. Otherwise you need to look for an audio lipsync solution. The Lumagen is not it, in this instance, as it only offers video delay, which won't help with this issue (it will make it worse).


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## Aaron Toulmin

Mark_H said:


> This is an AppleTV issue. Very annoyingly, most of the apps on that platform have different lipsyncs which need correcting. As you note yourself, the Shield has same lipsync across all apps, so the easy solution is to ditch the AppleTV and move to the Shield. Otherwise you need to look for an audio lipsync solution. The Lumagen is not it, in this instance, as it only offers video delay, which won't help with this issue (it will make it worse).


I have no issue with Apple TV 4K and lip sync. No matter what app.


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## gattorodolfo

monoprice how long should the cable be?


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## steelman1991

gattorodolfo said:


> monoprice how long should the cable be?


2M should be fine.


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## thrang

Mark_H said:


> This is an AppleTV issue. Very annoyingly, most of the apps on that platform have different lipsyncs which need correcting. As you note yourself, the Shield has same lipsync across all apps, so the easy solution is to ditch the AppleTV and move to the Shield. Otherwise you need to look for an audio lipsync solution. The Lumagen is not it, in this instance, as it only offers video delay, which won't help with this issue (it will make it worse).


not true for my 5 apple TV’s. The only lip sync issue is from msg networks broadcast - their center ice camera feed is oddly not time aligned with the audio so on-ice sounds are not always sync’d to action. But the rest of the broadcast including talking heads is fine, so it’s a very specific issue to their feed of that camera.

But no ATV issue with sync with any app


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## ckgolf

Bill DePalma said:


> I am unable to adjust the Marantz and perhaps fix my lip sync issue with the Lumagen in the video chain since it does seem to like the low res menu overlay output by the Marantz. Since I dont have a visual menu to adjust I cannot judge if I am fixing the sync problem. Is there a setting within the Lumagen that might be more forgivable and display the low res menu. Setting the output on the Lumagen to 1080?


Download Denon AVR app and you can adjust the lip sync on your phone.


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## BrolicBeast

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Is this the cable that is recommended between sources and lumagen
> 
> View attachment 3123149


Just jumping in to affirm--YES! I use these for everything except Kaleidescape...I'm running a 3m Tributaries cable on that. Those monoprice HDMI cables are great cables....I've been using them since 2017. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Bill DePalma

ckgolf said:


> Download Denon AVR app and you can adjust the lip sync on your phone.


The Denon app works with a Marantz?
I need to confess a very duh moment here, I reported that I could not see the Marantz setup menu. Of course I couldn’t, there is no video feed coming out of the Marantz, only an audio/hdmi IN. Still getting used to the Lumagen concept. Is it possible to setup the Lumengen to output both audio and video on Lumagen output 1? I could then run the Marantz monitor output to another display And maybe see the Marantz menu.


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## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> The Denon app works with a Marantz?
> I need to confess a very duh moment here, I reported that I could not see the Marantz setup menu. Of course I couldn’t, there is no video feed coming out of the Marantz, only an audio/hdmi IN. Still getting used to the Lumagen concept. Is it possible to setup the Lumengen to output both audio and video on Lumagen output 1? I could then run the Marantz monitor output to another display And maybe see the Marantz menu.


So I connected an HDMI cable directly out of the Marantz Monitor port into a small display without changing anything on the Lumagen video chain. I was able to get the Marantz menu, and I made some radical delay adjustments and voila the projected image is now in sync. However, as soon as I disconnect the small monitor the projected image loses lip sync.


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## Surge2018

Bill DePalma said:


> Hi
> i am new owner of a Lumagen 4242. Everything is working great with the exception of lip syncing problems with an Apple 4k tv box running Plex. The Lumagen is an 18ghz unit on inputs and out. I am running the Lumagen after source outputs and then sending a Marantz Pre/Pro the audio feed from the Lumagen. All cables are 2 meter 18ghz certified. I am only seeing the sync issue with Plex on the Apple box. I cannot seem to change the problem from within the Marantz by changing its delay controls. (Also I cannot see the Marantz menu with the Lumagen in the chain) I also have a Nvidia Shield running the same Plex client without any audio issues. Since there are no controls on the Apple box for audio sync and the Lumagen only works with delayed audio not, in my case delayed video, I am not sure what to do. Thoughts?


Apple TV does have a lip sync adjustment feature which uses your iPhone as the receiving microphone. It’s pretty good, but I ended up tweaking mine through trial and error.


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## Surge2018

Bill DePalma said:


> So I connected an HDMI cable directly out of the Marantz Monitor port into a small display without changing anything on the Lumagen video chain. I was able to get the Marantz menu, and I made some radical delay adjustments and voila the projected image is now in sync. However, as soon as I disconnect the small monitor the projected image loses lip sync.


Right, because the AVR needs a video display to be connected to it in order to auto adjust lip sync. Does it display the msec delay when it auto-adjusts? Probably not; or you could just enter that manually into the Marantz. Try the Apple iPhone based adjustment.


----------



## Mark_H

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have no issue with Apple TV 4K and lip sync. No matter what app.





thrang said:


> not true for my 5 apple TV’s. The only lip sync issue is from msg networks broadcast - their center ice camera feed is oddly not time aligned with the audio so on-ice sounds are not always sync’d to action. But the rest of the broadcast including talking heads is fine, so it’s a very specific issue to their feed of that camera.
> 
> But no ATV issue with sync with any app


Which model? Perhaps there's a difference between models. I'm referring to AppleTV 4K

I'm particularly sensitive to lipsync, so I tend to see it easily. I also have the hardware to measure it, so that I can correct it. My Apple TV 4K has measurable lipsync differences from those apps that I can feed test patterns to. And when that error is corrected, I then see obvious differences between corrected and uncorrected apps. Forums also have plenty of discussion on lipsync problems, eg Amazon Prime in particular is way off compared to, eg Netflix and YouTube apps.

I do not see, and cannot measure, any such problems with the NVidia Shield.

The conclusion I draw, based on my own measurements and experiences, backed up by anecdotal experiences of others on various forums is that those who do not see lipsync issues are lucky not to be sensitive to them. But to conclude the Apple TV (4K) doesn't have lipsync issues is incorrect.

Am aware this is the Lumagen thread, so perhaps this discussion can be had elsewhere (PM?) if interested, to avoid polluting the main thread.


----------



## raullopez1234

Has anyone ever done a comparison of the Blu ray upconversion between the Lumagen pro vs panasonic 820?


----------



## Bill DePalma

Surge2018 said:


> Right, because the AVR needs a video display to be connected to it in order to auto adjust lip sync. Does it display the msec delay when it auto-adjusts? Probably not; or you could just enter that manually into the Marantz. Try the Apple iPhone based adjustment.


Thanks
what is the iPone app you are referring to? Love to give it a try.
concerning the Marantz Audio delay, there is a manual msec setting that I can adjust but as far as I know no auto setting.


----------



## Surge2018

Thinking about enabling Genlock, but I’m confused about the direction to set it to 60Hz. Shouldn’t it automatically change the refresh rate to match the sources? Actually, this happens already, with Output Mode Auto 3, so I’m not sure what Genlock will add?
From the Lumagen site:
*



Genlocking

Click to expand...

*


> - The Vision/VisionPro are now capable of genlocking. Which means that the output timing exactly matches the input timing. This has the benefit of never dropping a frame of video and also serves to slightly minimize lipsync delay. As it was not originally designed to do this we had to compromise the SMPTE standard crt timings slightly--this shouldn't be a problem for the most part but there is the possibility it may not work with some displays (haven't seen one yet). If genlocking doesn't work simply turn it back off--don't feel too bad as it is very hard for most viewers to spot a frame drop since they occur infrequently and a frame accounts for ~1/60th of a second..
> To enable genlocking the output frame rate should match the input. So if you've got an NTSC input the output rate should be set to 59.94 Hz and if you're using PAL is should be 50.00 Hz. Genlocking defaults to off so you also need to turn it on by pressing *"menu",0,9,8,1 *on the remote. You can check the status by pressing *"menu",0,9,8,2*. If it doesn't work on your display you can turn it off by pressing "menu",0,9,8,1 again.


----------



## Erod

Do many of you put a fan on top of these units? 

Mine is well ventilated top and bottom, but it does get a bit warm at times.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mark_H said:


> Which model? Perhaps there's a difference between models. I'm referring to AppleTV 4K
> 
> I'm particularly sensitive to lipsync, so I tend to see it easily. I also have the hardware to measure it, so that I can correct it. My Apple TV 4K has measurable lipsync differences from those apps that I can feed test patterns to. And when that error is corrected, I then see obvious differences between corrected and uncorrected apps. Forums also have plenty of discussion on lipsync problems, eg Amazon Prime in particular is way off compared to, eg Netflix and YouTube apps.
> 
> I do not see, and cannot measure, any such problems with the NVidia Shield.
> 
> The conclusion I draw, based on my own measurements and experiences, backed up by anecdotal experiences of others on various forums is that those who do not see lipsync issues are lucky not to be sensitive to them. But to conclude the Apple TV (4K) doesn't have lipsync issues is incorrect.
> 
> Am aware this is the Lumagen thread, so perhaps this discussion can be had elsewhere (PM?) if interested, to avoid polluting the main thread.


Agreed, Amazon Prime is a pain, I find it’s resolved by disabling frame rate matching, though that creates another problem. Folk who don’t have the issue may not have it set to match frame rate? For me I have Netflix etc set to 80ms delay and I have to go to 120ms with Prime.


----------



## Surge2018

Contrast Enhancer on a Sony 995: should I set it to off for HDR? I assume so. I’ve had a pro calibration done.
Thanks


----------



## EVH78

Surge2018 said:


> Contrast Enhancer on a Sony 995: should I set it to off for HDR? I assume so. I’ve had a pro calibration done.
> Thanks


If you do HDR2020 - SDR2020 conversion with DTM it definitely needs to be turned off.


----------



## Mark_H

garyolearysteele said:


> Agreed, Amazon Prime is a pain, I find it’s resolved by disabling frame rate matching, though that creates another problem.


Yes, you pick your poison. I seem to recall hearing that this may now be fixed in beta releases...


----------



## Surge2018

EVH78 said:


> If you do HDR2020 - SDR2020 conversion with DTM it definitely needs to be turned off.


Right, thanks for confirming. 
and on SDR 709? Would you set contrast Enhancer to taste, perhaps on Low?


----------



## Mark Burton

Had the new 5348 installed yesterday. Using it with a Sony 760es projector and Dreamscreen V7 material.

Didn’t manage to get into my room until quite late, finally watch Love and monsters on Netflix.

This is a 1080p stream, so not the best source material.

However, first thing I noticed was the appleTV menu was noticeably sharper and brighter than previous, almost like seeing the menu on my OLED. These sorts of menus normally has been significantly less sharp than my OLED, but not any more.

The film itself looked incredible to be honest, colours looked amazing, image depth very 3 dimensional, amazing pop to the image, but most notable was how it just looked “right”.

Honestly surprised as I wasn’t expecting much on an increase, but 1080p stream content at least definitely looks better than before!

Cant comment on any UHD stuff yet and also can’t really say on the audio as it was only a Dolby digital 5.1 track, that whilst sounded good, was never going to compare to a full fat Dolby Atmos soundtrack.

I also got a keces power supply. The build quality on that thing is ridiculous, I’ve got some pretty high end stuff in my rack, but this thing outshines them all in this department!!


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

The Keces P8 is next on my shopping list.


----------



## EVH78

Surge2018 said:


> Right, thanks for confirming.
> and on SDR 709? Would you set contrast Enhancer to taste, perhaps on Low?


That's exactly what I do. For SDR 709 content I tend to use it on low for movies and sport events sometimes even on middle.


----------



## Surge2018

Aaron Toulmin said:


> The Keces P8 is next on my shopping list.


I use a Teddy Pardo - same tech as a Keces for about 1/2 the price and a smaller chassis.I’ve used their supplies for many years. 








Teddy Pardo Audio


Teddy Pardo Audio (Est. 2008) offers the best linear power supplies (LPS) for Naim, Chord, Roon, Bluesound etc. Our products are sold online via our website. We ship to worldwide.




www.teddypardo.com


----------



## A7mad78

Surge2018 said:


> I use a Teddy Pardo - same tech as a Keces for about 1/2 the price and a smaller chassis.I’ve used their supplies for many years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teddy Pardo Audio
> 
> 
> Teddy Pardo Audio (Est. 2008) offers the best linear power supplies (LPS) for Naim, Chord, Roon, Bluesound etc. Our products are sold online via our website. We ship to worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.teddypardo.com


Which model ? Pls 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## woofer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> The Keces P8 is next on my shopping list.


The "Up-tone Audio " JS-2 is another great alternative LPS , which is what i use... 😊


----------



## Kurvenal

*HDMI HANDSHAKE LOOP* *BETWEEN RADIANCE PRO AND TRINNOV ALTITUDE?*

I have all of my video sources coming into a Radiance Pro and I have a Trinnov Altitude connected to the Pro's Audio output. This works fine except for one source: a Sony UBP-X1000 Blu-ray player that I have started to use quite a bit to play Blu-ray music discs. 

I want to be able to watch a separate video source through the Pro while I am listening to music through the BDP, but if I connect the HDMI 2 Audio Only output on the UBP-X1000 to the Trinnov it turns off the audio to the main HDMI 1 combined video/audio output connected to the Pro. 

I am looking at different ways of getting around this problem, but for several different reasons my preferred solution would be to connect the UBP-X1000 HDMI 1 output directly to the Trinnov, and then use a Trinnov output to pass video to the Pro. Since all of my other sources would still be connected first to the Pro, this would go against advice I received from Lumagen to avoid creating an HDMI handshake loop when I first set up my system some time ago. 

I am not sure if anything has changed since then or if anyone else has tried this without any problems?

I will also post this in the Trinnov forum to cover both angles. 

Many thanks.


----------



## Surge2018

A7mad78 said:


> Which model ? Pls
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They will custom make it for you. Just give them the required specifications: 
2.0 or 2.1mm output cable (TP ships 2.1, Lumagen says 2.0; 2.1 works), positive internal
5A
12V


----------



## Surge2018

Curious about Posturization - I have not noticed any with my Sony 995; does the Lumagen improve it?


----------



## A7mad78

Surge2018 said:


> They will custom make it for you. Just give them the required specifications:
> 2.0 or 2.1mm output cable (TP ships 2.1, Lumagen says 2.0; 2.1 works), positive internal
> 5A
> 12V


Thx for reply 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gattorodolfo

jim recommends at least three meters as the length of the monoprice cable, am I wrong?


----------



## EVH78

gattorodolfo said:


> jim recommends at least three meters as the length of the monoprice cable, am I wrong?


The minimum length Lumagen suggested to me was 2 meters.


----------



## steelman1991

gattorodolfo said:


> jim recommends at least three meters as the length of the monoprice cable, am I wrong?


Why ask if you know the answer 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gattorodolfo

steelman1991 said:


> Why ask if you know the answer
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


perhaps the translation was not clear, I asked: am I wrong?.I ask because I'm not sure


----------



## steelman1991

gattorodolfo said:


> perhaps the translation was not clear, I asked: am I wrong?.I ask because I'm not sure


Not really. You asked the question earlier in the thread and were given an answer 2, then proceeded to ask if it was 3. No worries, there’s no hard and fast rule. I have 2M lengths which was recommended earlier in the thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hoi

woofer said:


> The "Up-tone Audio " JS-2 is another great alternative LPS , which is what i use... 😊


Currently a madVR user and I'm going to pull the trigger soon with the 5348. For the JS-2, which DC cable option on the Uptone website is for the Lumagen? I've never had a Lumagen or a linear power supply.


----------



## Karl Maga

Hoi said:


> Currently a madVR user and I'm going to pull the trigger soon with the 5348. For the JS-2, which DC cable option on the Uptone website is for the Lumagen? I've never had a Lumagen or a linear power supply.
> 
> View attachment 3124367


Here you go...


jrp said:


> The DC input on the Radiance Pro is 2.1 mm. So you need to change the 2.5 mm Keces P8 output to a 2.1 mm.
> 
> All Radiance Pro models (including the 5348) will come with teh standard Radiance Pro switching power "brick."
> 
> The Keces P8's, and 2.5 mm to 2.1 mm DC cables, I am buying are to have some on hand should anyone want to buy one.


----------



## Naiera

The Info menu on my RadianceXD keeps popping up at random. Really annoying.

Does anyone have an idea as to how to make it stop? It’s not the first time that it’s received random commands, I figure from other remotes (usually it just switches to 1.85:1 format), but this info menu popping up all the time is new.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> The Info menu on my RadianceXD keeps popping up at random. Really annoying.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea as to how to make it stop? It’s not the first time that it’s received random commands, I figure from other remotes (usually it just switches to 1.85:1 format), but this info menu popping up all the time is new.


Do you have anything connected to the USB or serial? I recall ArgyllCMS would cause this to happen when it would try and autodetect meters.


----------



## Naiera

I do not. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

I removed all non-essential remotes so they can’t “hit” the scaler and nothing’s happened for a while. Guess I have some work to do in terms of figuring out the culprit. Better that than a wonky scaler that’s nearly impossible to have fixed or replace though!


----------



## SJHT

How are you controlling your unit (IR, serial)? Try changing the delimiter setting. SJ

look at page 1:

http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_051320.pdf


----------



## Naiera

Just regular ol’ IR for me. Delimiters set to off. Not that I’ve been in that menu before


----------



## jrp

gattorodolfo said:


> jim recommends at least three meters as the length of the monoprice cable, am I wrong?


I recommend no less than two meter passive HDMI cables to mitigate the HDMI output and input cable EQ, and edge rates. However, recently we switched to three-meter Tributaries UHDP HDMI cables in the Lumagen Demo Theater, and going from two meter to three-meter UHDP cables eliminated a rare audio dropout we were having from the Strato.

So to put it in one sentence: Do not use less than a two meter passive 18 GHz certified HDMI cable, but you may get better results for audio using 3 meter passive 18 GHz cables from sources to the Pro, and the Pro to the audio processor.

Put another way, I now prefer 3 meter passives, but in many cases 2 meter passive are fine.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> The Info menu on my RadianceXD keeps popping up at random. Really annoying.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea as to how to make it stop? It’s not the first time that it’s received random commands, I figure from other remotes (usually it just switches to 1.85:1 format), but this info menu popping up all the time is new.


If you have a control system and are sending an "OK" button after you select an input, or do anything else, this will bring up the "Info Page." If you do send an OK when not needed it is treated as a separate command. This is consistent with your issue.

Only send the OK button if explicitly required by a command. For example do _not_ send an OK after an input select (which should be the INPUT button and then the number of the input), or an aspect select, or a memory select. 

If you prefer you can disable the "Info Screen on OK or RS232 <cr>" by entering MENU 0927, and doing a Save.

===

I cannot think of anything else that might be causing the Info Screen to pop up, so I believe this is it, but if not feel free to post again or email the lumagen.com support email.

===

Note: "Delimiters" do not apply to IR, only RS232.


----------



## gattorodolfo

jrp said:


> I recommend no less than two meter passive HDMI cables to mitigate the HDMI output and input cable EQ, and edge rates. However, recently we switched to three-meter Tributaries UHDP HDMI cables in the Lumagen Demo Theater, and going from two meter to three-meter UHDP cables eliminated a rare audio dropout we were having from the Strato.
> 
> So to put it in one sentence: Do not use less than a two meter passive 18 GHz certified HDMI cable, but you may get better results for audio using 3 meter passive 18 GHz cables from sources to the Pro, and the Pro to the audio processor.
> 
> Put another way, I now prefer 3 meter passives, but in many cases 2 meter passive are fine.
> 
> ===
> 
> Note: "Delimiters" do not apply to IR, only RS232.


jim what do you think of monoprice cables?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

gattorodolfo said:


> jim what do you think of monoprice cables?


I just got 3 x 2m ones from Amazon. They seem fine, no issues even with 4k60


----------



## jrp

gattorodolfo said:


> Jim what do you think of Monoprice cables?


I prefer Tributaries UHDP passive HDMI cables. They are more expensive, but I believe are better cables, have a nice retention feature, are mechanically robust, and IMO should last longer in the system.

I certainly recommend against an unreasonably expensive passive HDMI cable (e.g. $800 for a two meter HDMI cable is absurd), but I think the Tributaries UHDP two and three meters at $100 and $120 retail (in USA), are a good balance of price and quality. We choose these for the Lumagen Demo Theater to make sure we have long term reliability given their robust design and retention feature. For dealers I recommend the UHDP to reduce the chance of a service call that ends up being a HDMI cable issue.

Electrically the Monoprice test fine, but mechanically I do not believe they are as robust as the UHDP cables, and that they have more chance of working loose in the HDMI jack. I just checked and the Monoprice (115428 Certified Premium HDMI Cable) two meter is at $6.59 on Amazon. This a great price. They pass our testing at 18 GHz (we use a Quantum Media 780D HDMI tester), and many people find them good cables. If you are managing your own system, then the Monoprice cable can serve you well.


----------



## jrp

I want to again mention our "old for new" remote control trade-in program. We have had a number of people send in their current Radiance remote control in return for Lumagen sending a new "Radiance Pro" remote once they arrive. The Radiance remote style we are looking for has the bottom row labeled "PiP."

If you are in the USA and are willing to trade your current Radiance remote for a new Radiance Pro remote, please email lumagen.com support and I will give you an RMA and address to send your current remote to. You pay to ship the current Radiance remote to Lumagen and Lumagen pays to ship a new Radiance Pro remote to you in a straight swap.

Here is a picture of the new Radiance Pro remote:










We are down to our last few Radiance remotes, and could use some help getting more current remotes to allow us to continue shipping product while we wait for the new remotes to arrive.

We have been told the new Radiance Pro remotes were supposed to be fabricated last week, but there was some issue with the injection mold. We are hoping they are fabricated this week, but are waiting to hear if this is happening. Once fabricated we need to get them through China customs, and have them shipped to us by UPS Express. So, we are getting close to having the new Radiance Pro remotes in hand.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> I want to again mention our "old for new" remote control trade-in program.


Since the new remote has no backlight I definitely have to give it a pass. Still VERY disappointed about this.


----------



## MOberhardt

EVH78 said:


> Since the new remote has no backlight I definitely have to give it a pass. Still VERY disappointed about this.


I'd recommend get a Harmony elite, but sadly that ain't an option anymore...

Most remotes aren't backlit. It is a nice looking more modern remote though.


----------



## EVH78

MOberhardt said:


> I'd recommend get a Harmony elite, but sadly that ain't an option anymore...
> 
> Most remotes aren't backlit. It is a nice looking more modern remote though.


I do have the Harmony Elite also but I am so very used to the Lumagen remote that it is just so much faster and easier for me to use it.


----------



## Surge2018

Apologies as I think this was discussed earlier, but will the 5438 pass through 4K120 content? I understand it doesn’t process it, but does it pass it through at least?


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> Apologies as I think this was discussed earlier, but will the 5438 pass through 4K120 content? I understand it doesn’t process it, but does it pass it through at least?


No, 18G max, and only HDMI 2.0 formats currently.


----------



## nonstopdoc1

Quick question guys, is there a way to turn OFF NLS from remote once it's on? NLS button on remote turns it on but not off and cycling through aspect ratios takes back to the same NLS enabled ratio.

Thanks 

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Just press the button corresponding to the original ratio?


----------



## jrp

nonstopdoc1 said:


> Quick question guys, is there a way to turn OFF NLS from remote once it's on? NLS button on remote turns it on but not off and cycling through aspect ratios takes back to the same NLS enabled ratio.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk


As bobof suggests if you are 16:9 source in NLS, just press 16:9 to turn off NLS.


----------



## jrp

[EDIT]

We posted and then pulled 040521. Was not ready for prime time. Will advise.


----------



## Surge2018

What are users' preferred settings for 1080P to 4K up conversion? I may be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing much about what these settings do in the owners' manual? 
I currently have mine set as follows:


----------



## Jue Liang

Surge2018 said:


> What are users' preferred settings for 1080P to 4K up conversion? I may be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing much about what these settings do in the owners' manual?
> I currently have mine set as follows:
> View attachment 3125893


I prefer turning off both sharpening and darbee. I can see obvious artifacts even on the lowest settings.


----------



## bjorg

Jue Liang said:


> I prefer turning off both sharpening and darbee. I can see obvious artifacts even on the lowest settings.


I depends on screen size too. I use different settings on my 77" OLED vs. 200" C-LED. What might appear as an uptick in resolution at one scale appears as an annoying artifact at another.


----------



## bjorg

Question: I've been using _Input 10_ to fake switch inputs sources. That seems to be the best technique on Control4 to access the RadiancePro controls without switching sources. However, that has stopped working now and I don't know if it's due to recently upgrading the firmware, which is shared with the 5xxx series that has 10 inputs, or if it's something else.

Has anyone else been using this trick and upgrade to a recent firmware?


----------



## jrp

We posted 040721 on the Lumagen Radiance Pro updates page.

For Radiance Pro 5348 owners, this fixes a power-on issue that would on a couple systems cause the processor to believe the I/O Flash ROM needed reprogramming. I recommend all Radiance Pro 5348 owners load this (or newer) release when they have time.

As an aside: We wanted to have a way for the user to know when the I/O Flash ROMs are being reprogramed due to this issue, but also when moving from an older software release to the new release that has updated I/O microcode. For release 040721, and later, should there be a new I/O microcode, the front panel LED will flash between blue and blue + red while updating the I/O ROMs.

The I/O re-flash can take a few minutes and we have had a few owners pull power thinking something was wrong, and so again initiate the re-flashing. This is a visual indication to not pull power and instead give the Pro time to complete the I/O ROM flashing.

Please note that there are no plans for new I/O microcode at this time.


----------



## Dirk44

jrp said:


> [EDIT]
> 
> We posted and then pulled 040521. Was not ready for prime time. Will advise.


Thank you Jim, as a none 5348 user, i wait for 040521. Do you have a timetable yet ? Or did you leave that and jump over straight to 040721?


----------



## Kris Deering

Dirk44 said:


> Thank you Jim, as a none 5348 user, i wait for 040521. Do you have a timetable yet ? Or did you leave that and jump over straight to 040721?


Jumped, just load 0407


----------



## thebland

*Lumagen menu screen set up 24 Hz Question for Kaleidescape users. *


Anyone here set their Lumagen up so the menu screen is 24 Hz? This was enabled in a Lumagen software update in June 2020. 

i was going to try this to help with sync times and audio drops that occur while transitioning from menu to movie. Usually last 5-15 seconds. Sort of annoying. .

A portion of the directions for changes in the Lumagen settings to accomplish are posted below - but I can’t follow exactly what to change or how to do it based on the below. I need it spoon fed . Any direction? No idea what to do - seem like 3 areas to change (underlined). I did not program my Radiance so it’s not so obvious to me how to change. 

_So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode. The Pro will now stay in the same 24Hz output mode when Kaleidescape changes between 60Hz menu and 24Hz movies but still allow the Pro to change to a 60Hz mode when 60Hz videos are played.


***Also, I get similar 5-15 second audio sync sounds between clips in a K Script. Would changes abI’ve perhaps this help as well?

Thanks. 
from Build 08/20

*How to set up Kaleidescape Strato & Pro to unnecessary output mode changes*_
With many projectors changing the output mode (.ei 4k24 to 4k60) can be rather slow. The Kaleidescape player always uses 60hz for it's menu but when playing a movie it's preferable to have it set to play at 24Hz so going between menu and movies can leave the viewer sometimes waiting 30 seconds with a blank screen while the equipment syncs up to the new output mode. A very simple way to fix this is just to set the Pro to output 4k24 for all input modes but then the less common case of 60Hz videos from the Kaliedescape would look stuttery so a method to stay in 24Hz output for only the Kaleidescape menus and 24Hz movies is desirable. There is a way to detect the special case of Kaleidescapes' menu screen and with a new option in the Pro we can eliminate this slow resync time between menus and movies and keep 60Hz videos looking good. To do this, make a change in the Kaleidescape players advanced video setup menu and set the HDMI Content Type Metadata to 'Transmit content type metadata' (the Kaleidescape will now output a special graphics flag over HDMI when in it's menu). On the Pro menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Type, set the Graphic Flag Use setting to 'Use'. Now when the Kaleidescape is in it's menu the Pro will detect and use the graphics flag and classify the input mode as 'Other' (instead of 4k60). So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode. The Pro will now stay in the same 24Hz output mode when Kaleidescape changes between 60Hz menu and 24Hz movies but still allow the Pro to change to a 60Hz mode when 60Hz videos are played.


----------



## Scorpion66

Hello together,
I am an owner of lumagen 4442 since a few days. My question now is: can the lumagen be configured in the way to go automatic in to standby in case all the HDMI
inputs are off?


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Scorpion66 said:


> Hello together,
> I am an owner of lumagen 4442 since a few days. My question now is: can the lumagen be configured in the way to go automatic in to standby in case all the HDMI
> inputs are off?


Not I am aware of, I resolve that by using a universal Logitech remote control, just program to switch off all the devices, works flawlessly.
P.S. Welcome to the club, best Video Processor ever made!


----------



## PeterLarsson

Must be a stupid question but just want to make sure:
For 1080p content, like blu-rays or streaming content I have an own memory - to force both my UB-820 and ATV to send 1080p via HDMI EDID setting in the output memory. 

Now I would like to do a similar setting for my existing DVDs, I have a few and I would like Lumagen to scale up from 576i to 4k rather than UB-820. Will a change in the input menu and set 576i there as the incoming signal force 576i? Unfortunately only 1080p is available in the HDMI EDID menu and not 576i. Since I don't have a source direct in UB-820 like in Oppo I need to force from Lumagen and wonder how to do it. 

Thanks


----------



## Alex Hindman

I am looking to get into the lumagen world, but I want you guys' sage advice. I was reading that the lumagen actually improves audio. Is this true? I (probably naively) would have assumed it would potentially decrease the quality (or at best be the same). Is there a reason it improves the quality, or was what I was reading incorrect?


----------



## Mark Burton

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Not I am aware of, I resolve that by using a universal Logitech remote control, just program to switch off all the devices, works flawlessly.
> P.S. Welcome to the club, best Video Processor ever made!


Not quite, the 5348 is the best processor ever made 😉


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Alex, yes it can improve audio and Jim Peterson explains why in this document. He has also explained it on this thread but it's easier just to post this here....


----------



## Alex Hindman

Gordon Fraser said:


> Alex, yes it can improve audio and Jim Peterson explains why in this document. He has also explained it on this thread but it's easier just to post this here....


Thanks for that. Appreciate any/all info.


----------



## bferbrache

PeterLarsson said:


> Must be a stupid question but just want to make sure:
> For 1080p content, like blu-rays or streaming content I have an own memory - to force both my UB-820 and ATV to send 1080p via HDMI EDID setting in the output memory.
> 
> Now I would like to do a similar setting for my existing DVDs, I have a few and I would like Lumagen to scale up from 576i to 4k rather than UB-820. Will a change in the input menu and set 576i there as the incoming signal force 576i? Unfortunately only 1080p is available in the HDMI EDID menu and not 576i. Since I don't have a source direct in UB-820 like in Oppo I need to force from Lumagen and wonder how to do it.
> 
> Thanks


Hi Peter
I don't believe that this is possible - I tried to restrict my SKY Q box in the UK to 1080i but only 1080P was available as you say. My OPPO 203 will play 576i source direct for the odd occasion when I have to watch a DVD but I previously owned a Panasonic and it would not do source direct.

Sorry but unless someone else can suggest something then I think you will have to change the output manually to watch a DVD in the Panasonic menu

Brian


----------



## scrowe

PeterLarsson said:


> Must be a stupid question but just want to make sure:
> For 1080p content, like blu-rays or streaming content I have an own memory - to force both my UB-820 and ATV to send 1080p via HDMI EDID setting in the output memory.
> 
> Now I would like to do a similar setting for my existing DVDs, I have a few and I would like Lumagen to scale up from 576i to 4k rather than UB-820. Will a change in the input menu and set 576i there as the incoming signal force 576i? Unfortunately only 1080p is available in the HDMI EDID menu and not 576i. Since I don't have a source direct in UB-820 like in Oppo I need to force from Lumagen and wonder how to do it.
> 
> Thanks


Unfortunately not, I think there is a limitation in the hardware, as I asked fir a 1080i setting in the past.Additionally last I looked the Pannys only output 576p or 480p. You can however try a memory with reinterlace on, where you set the Panny manually to 576/480 and the Lumagen wii detect the interlaced frames and reinterlace and scale them.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Jue Liang said:


> I prefer turning off both sharpening and darbee. I can see obvious artifacts even on the lowest settings.


Would be interested to hear what kind of artifacts you see? I have the sharpness also on 2 and then only thing I have ever thought of is less smooth motion handling than normal.


----------



## Mike_WI

Has anyone checked out this for Lumagen (or other)?

*Ferrum Audio - Hypsos*









HYPSOS - Ferrum


The Hypsos really did it. More dynamics, better bass performance… – Morten Mohr & Marius Smolinski, Germany HYPSOS defines a brand new category of a hifi products. It’s not a simple power supply but an audio component of its own … Read More




ferrum.audio




$995

HYPSOS linear/switching hybrid power system
100 ~ 240V AC in
5 ~ 30V DC out
6A/60W


I was actually looking at Keces P8 (single vs dual output, KECES) for possible Roon Nucleus Plus +/- Lumagen.
The continuous variability seems useful in the Hyposis.

Is the dual output Keces P8 usuable (4A vs 8A) with Lumagen?
Dual output with USB output provide 4A for each with 1A USB output.
Single output with USB output provide 8A with 1A USB output.

cc @jrp


----------



## desertdome

thebland said:


> *Lumagen menu screen set up 24 Hz Question for Kaleidescape users. *
> 
> Anyone here set their Lumagen up so the menu screen is 24 Hz? This was enabled in a Lumagen software update in June 2020.
> 
> I was going to try this to help with sync times and audio drops that occur while transitioning from menu to movie. Usually last 5-15 seconds. Sort of annoying.


Instead of changing anything in the Lumagen, I would first trying changing the Kaleidescape menu screen to 24 Hz. If you need more flexibility, then you can add in some Lumagen changes. Here is how to set 24 Hz in the Kaleidescape:

Log into your Kaleidescape system by entering its IP address in a web browser. You can find the IP address by pressing the Info button the Kaleidescape remote and going to System Summary.
Click the top Settings Tab and then click Settings at the bottom









Click Show Advanced Video Settings
The very first Section is OSD Refresh Rate. Select Prefer 24 Hz onscreen menus.









Select OK to exit the menu.


----------



## thebland

Ok. Will do!


----------



## Technology3456

Could anyone please tell me what ME/MC processing means, and how to check if your projector does it? It says this is necessary in the manual of a (not Lumagen) processor that has no owner's thread on avs, but I don't know what it means.


> If the input is 1080p 24Hz and the projectors can also support this signal with ME/MC processing, please
> select [Enable] in [1080p 24Hz Output]


Edit: the fifth or so google search turned up an MEMC quora post with an answer saying this means frame interpolation. But why would projectors have to have frame interpolation in order to accept a 1080p/24hz signal? Whether the projector has frame interpolation would determine whether it can turn that 24fps signal into 48fps or 60fps or 120fps or something, but why would it have any bearing on the processor being able to send a 1080p/24hz signal to the projector in the first place that the projector could then output at 24hz whether it has frame interpolation capability or not?

I'm wondering/hoping this is a mistake in the manual or something. It's in here Geobox 3D Settings; Input Format]; Output Format]; 1080P 24Hz Output] - VNS GeoBox G-602 User Manual [Page 25] | ManualsLib.


----------



## desertdome

Alex Hindman said:


> I am looking to get into the lumagen world, but I want you guys' sage advice. I was reading that the lumagen actually improves audio. Is this true? I (probably naively) would have assumed it would potentially decrease the quality (or at best be the same). Is there a reason it improves the quality, or was what I was reading incorrect?


It depends on your output device, processor, or downstream DAC. The Kaleidescape Stratos has an audio-only HDMI 1.4 output that is designed for high quality low jitter output. I'm not sure how it compares to the Lumagen's audio-only output. 

The StormAudio ISP Mk2 processor uses an FPGA to to resynch and route all the signals. There is then asynchronous post-processing that has its own local clock to which the signals are synched, providing a 24/48 fixed signal to the post-processing chain. The input and output clocks are decoupled to isolate any noise transfer and both clocks perform further cleaning of the signal. Signal paths have also been optimized for the highest quality audio output. 

I take things another step further and output digitally via AVB to a 32 channel RME M-32 DA Pro. This DAC has SteadyClock FS which reduces any jitter down to femtoseconds. A Lumagen in the audio signal path is not necessary with either the StormAudio or RME as the final digital to analog conversion stage.


----------



## Surge2018

[Deleted! Posted during Covid vaccine..!]


----------



## Technology3456

I saw a post from 8 months ago from Jim mentioning pipeline improvements planned to the Lumagen Radiance Pro to be able to do 12 bit. Is this something on a hardware level that you have to buy units manufactured after it is added to get the benefit, or if I bought a Lumagen from 2017, and then this was added via firmware update, I would get the benefit on the 2017 unit?

I know most things get updated in the firmware but I wasn't sure if "pipeline" means something has to change on a hardware level or not.


----------



## thebland

desertdome said:


> Instead of changing anything in the Lumagen, I would first trying changing the Kaleidescape menu screen to 24 Hz. If you need more flexibility, then you can add in some Lumagen changes. Here is how to set 24 Hz in the Kaleidescape:
> 
> Log into your Kaleidescape system by entering its IP address in a web browser. You can find the IP address by pressing the Info button the Kaleidescape remote and going to System Summary.
> Click the top Settings Tab and then click Settings at the bottom
> View attachment 3127109
> 
> 
> Click Show Advanced Video Settings
> The very first Section is OSD Refresh Rate. Select Prefer 24 Hz onscreen menus.
> View attachment 3127114
> 
> 
> Select OK to exit the menu.


I like it. But I think I need a step by step for the Lumagen set up as the OSD is way too slowwwww... Any idea how to translate the Lumagen steps? Thanks


----------



## bjorg

Technology3456 said:


> I saw a post from 8 months ago from Jim mentioning pipeline improvements planned to the Lumagen Radiance Pro to be able to do 12 bit. Is this something on a hardware level that you have to buy units manufactured after it is added to get the benefit, or if I bought a Lumagen from 2017, and then this was added via firmware update, I would get the benefit on the 2017 unit?
> 
> I know most things get updated in the firmware but I wasn't sure if "pipeline" means something has to change on a hardware level or not.


Yes, it's all software. At the heart of the RadiancePro is an FPGA, which you can think of as "programmable hardware". Lumagen can upload a new hardware layout specification for the FPGA to enable new functionality. FPGAs are not as fast as CPUs, but much more flexible, which has been a boon to us!


----------



## Technology3456

bjorg said:


> Yes, it's all software. At the heart of the RadiancePro is an FPGA, which you can think of as "programmable hardware". Lumagen can upload a new hardware layout specification for the FPGA to enable new functionality. FPGAs are not as fast as CPUs, but much more flexible, which has been a boon to us!


Very cool!


----------



## mindedc

thebland said:


> I like it. But I think I need a step by step for the Lumagen set up as the OSD is way too slowwwww... Any idea how to translate the Lumagen steps? Thanks


If you're setting up the configuration to flag that the kscape is in the menu to eliminate projector resyncs, this is from the Lumagen web site firmware page on how to do it:

*How to set up Kaleidescape Strato & Pro to eliminate unnecessary output mode changes
With many projectors changing the output mode (.ei 4k24 to 4k60) can be rather slow. The Kaleidescape player always uses 60hz for it's menu but when playing a movie it's preferable to have it set to play at 24Hz so going between menu and movies can leave the viewer sometimes waiting 30 seconds with a blank screen while the equipment syncs up to the new output mode. A very simple way to fix this is just to set the Pro to output 4k24 for all input modes but then the less common case of 60Hz videos from the Kaliedescape would look stuttery so a method to stay in 24Hz output for only the Kaleidescape menus and 24Hz movies is desirable. There is a way to detect the special case of Kaleidescapes' menu screen and with a new option in the Pro we can eliminate this slow resync time between menus and movies and keep 60Hz videos looking good. To do this, make a change in the Kaleidescape players advanced video setup menu and set the HDMI Content Type Metadata to 'Transmit content type metadata' (the Kaleidescape will now output a special graphics flag over HDMI when in it's menu). On the Pro menu under Input: Options: HDMI Setup: Type, set the Graphic Flag Use setting to 'Use'. Now when the Kaleidescape is in it's menu the Pro will detect and use the graphics flag and classify the input mode as 'Other' (instead of 4k60). So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode. The Pro will now stay in the same 24Hz output mode when Kaleidescape changes between 60Hz menu and 24Hz movies but still allow the Pro to change to a 60Hz mode when 60Hz videos are played.*


----------



## feelthesound

hello everyone,

i do not understand why Jim do not include an Edid for let the lumagen capable to activate Dolby Vision at the source « LLDV » as an hd fury vertex 2...

And it’s totally on the direction to do a 12bits pipeline...

what is the difficulty ?

I ve read that:
LLDV is using “normal” encoding: native 12 bits 4:2:2 up to UHD resolution, D65 white point, the BT.2020 color matrix, and ETOF-compliant with SMPTE 2084.

The lumagen pro have the referential data matrix to work with the LLDV, so... Jim,if you read me, it’s on the roadmap ?


----------



## bobof

feelthesound said:


> what is the difficulty ?


I'm guessing in part the difference is being located in a country where litigious outfits like Dolby have the ability to cause serious pain through the court systems...


----------



## thebland

mindedc said:


> If you're setting up the configuration to flag that the kscape is in the menu to eliminate projector resyncs...* Now when the Kaleidescape is in it's menu the Pro will detect and use the graphics flag and classify the input mode as 'Other' (instead of 4k60). So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode. The Pro will now stay in the same 24Hz output mode when Kaleidescape changes between 60Hz menu and 24Hz movies but still allow the Pro to change to a 60Hz mode when 60Hz videos are played.*


This isthe programming part I do not understand. do I change other to 2160P? And same for CMS and Styke selection? I don’t even know what these later 2 items are. This is where I need direction.
thanks!


----------



## Mike_WI

FYI...

*SPK618 adapter kit 4K/120 Hz & 8K*








"OFFICIAL" 2020 Denon AVR Owner's Thread...


Denon and Marantz announce fix for [email protected] AV receiver bug. https://www.whathifi.com/us/news/denon-and-marantz-announce-fix-for-4k120hz-bug




www.avsforum.com







> The new SPK618 adapter kit will be available to request for FREE beginning May 15, 2021.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ1qLOkfRsE
> Request the adapter ----> www.denon.com/en-us/hdmiadapter


https://na01.safelinks.protection.o...Uty92pgL8/k6gE8Q2SzuwbELEiOhsau34=&reserved=0


----------



## jtjjen

thebland said:


> This isthe programming part I do not understand. do I change other to 2160P? And same for CMS and Styke selection? I don’t even know what these later 2 items are. This is where I need direction.
> thanks!


I would recommend you just go into the browser on the Strato Video tab —> Advanced Video Settings —> OSD Refresh Rate —> Prefer 24 Hz onscreen Menus.

This will decrease the delay when starting and stopping movies but you will get the “Stuttering” when moving through the movie art screen. It will not help with Scripts if you have different frame rate content scenes but there are very few 60 Hz titles (mainay concerts and some documentaries. All the 4K titles are 24 Hz except the “Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk”.

John


----------



## thebland

jtjjen said:


> I would recommend you just go into the browser on the Strato Video tab —> Advanced Video Settings —> OSD Refresh Rate —> Prefer 24 Hz onscreen Menus.
> 
> This will decrease the delay when starting and stopping movies but you will get the “Stuttering” when moving through the movie art screen. It will not help with Scripts if you have different frame rate content scenes but there are very few 60 Hz titles (mainay concerts and some documentaries. All the 4K titles are 24 Hz except the “Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk”.
> 
> John


I did this but too much studder. THe Lumagen settings that I'd like to understand will allow the splash screen to stay 60 Hz but flag 24 Hz.

This is what I need to understand (how to program). *So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode.

Thanks*


----------



## docrog

@jrp, could you explain whether or not there are any improvements for the 4242 owner with regards to the latest firmware update (040721)? Thanks!


----------



## MOberhardt

docrog said:


> @jrp, could you explain whether or not there are any improvements for the 4242 owner with regards to the latest firmware update (040721)? Thanks!


If you watch 3d, heck yes.


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> If you watch 3d, heck yes.


I thought that was fixed in 030121.


----------



## docrog

What about 3D needed fixing and what was accomplished in the most recent firmware update?


----------



## feelthesound

.


----------



## feelthesound

hello everyone,

i do not understand why Jim do not include an Edid for let the lumagen capable to activate Dolby Vision at the source « LLDV » as an hd fury vertex 2...

And it’s totally on the direction to do a 12bits pipeline...

what is the difficulty ?

I ve read that:
LLDV is using “normal” encoding: native 12 bits 4:2:2 up to UHD resolution, D65 white point, the BT.2020 color matrix, and ETOF-compliant with SMPTE 2084.

The lumagen pro have the referential data matrix to work with the LLDV, so... Jim,if you read me, it’s on the roadmap ?


----------



## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> I thought that was fixed in 030121.


Hmm you are right. Something else was in latest on RH pixel. Wonder if related.




docrog said:


> What about 3D needed fixing and what was accomplished in the most recent firmware update?


I was seeing on some 3D discs in places tretched pixels in one layer along the RHS. I'd seen it on a few and thought it must have been faulty transfers. Anyhow, gone now thank goodness


----------



## docrog

MOberhardt said:


> Hmm you are right. Something else was in latest on RH pixel. Wonder if related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was seeing on some 3D discs in places tretched pixels in one layer along the RHS. I'd seen it on a few and thought it must have been faulty transfers. Anyhow, gone now thank goodness


Thanks for that explanation. I hadn't watched any of my 3Ds for a while, but hadn't noted aberrations with earlier c.2020 software. Was it unintentionally broken on a recent upgrade?


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> I did this but too much studder. THe Lumagen settings that I'd like to understand will allow the splash screen to stay 60 Hz but flag 24 Hz.
> 
> This is what I need to understand (how to program). *So the last setting to make is in the Pro's Output Setup menu and for the input mode condition of 'Other' change the Pro's output mode, CMS's and Style selection to match what is setup when detecting a 24Hz input mode.
> 
> Thanks*


Incorrect, it will do a frame rate conversion from 60 and that is a BAD thing. Even Jim recommends using the new 24p OSD as it does a better job than the Lumagen conversion.


----------



## MOberhardt

docrog said:


> Thanks for that explanation. I hadn't watched any of my 3Ds for a while, but hadn't noted aberrations with earlier c.2020 software. Was it unintentionally broken on a recent upgrade?


I think it was introduced on an update either late last year or early this year. I think when the update was posted it was mentioned.


----------



## docrog

MOberhardt said:


> I think it was introduced on an update either late last year or early this year. I think when the update was posted it was mentioned.


Thanks. I was regularly following this forum but must have missed it somehow. I'll be on the lookout to see if it persisted after 030121 since I haven't been informed about any new improvement to the previous platform.


----------



## MDesigns

thebland said:


> I did this but too much studder.


I think the options are Studder with the 24hz menus and fast switch to 24hz content *OR* No stutter with 60hz menus and slow switching from 60hz menus to 24hz content. Make your choice from those, other choices are bad.


----------



## Bumper

desertdome said:


> A Lumagen in the audio signal path is not necessary with either the StormAudio or RME as the final digital to analog conversion stage.


I figured as much but wasn't sure. I own an ISP MKII 24ch Analog and am considering an LRP. I don't care much about more than 4 inputs and am even planning on putting the LRP in between the Storm and the Projector but didn't want to miss out on better audio quality if able. But I understand that I should not consider the new 5348 if it comes to audio quality because the Storm ISP already uses a similar system. Good to have that validated.


----------



## Ediddy

I purchased my Lumagen last week. I thought it would come with the new remote.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ediddy said:


> I purchased my Lumagen last week. I thought it would come with the new remote.


Your dealer should have informed you what was going on with remotes.


----------



## SJHT

You may have one of ours! . Enjoy your new Lumagen Pro!


----------



## audvid

Please delete


----------



## Surge2018

I just bought a second projector (JVC NX9) to use as a backup to my Sony 995ES. What is the best way to switch calibration settings between projectors with the Lumagen? I will be using the same HDMI output for both, so manually unplugging one and plugging in the other, when I switch. Thanks!


----------



## bobof

Surge2018 said:


> I just bought a second projector (JVC NX9) to use as a backup to my Sony 995ES. What is the best way to switch calibration settings between projectors with the Lumagen? I will be using the same HDMI output for both, so manually unplugging one and plugging in the other, when I switch. Thanks!


Just calibrate each one on different memories (you have 4, MEMA-D) using different CMS etc slots for each. When you switch memories it will stay in that memory until you switch to another memory, even if you change inputs.


----------



## docrog

Sorry to post again, but no one responded regarding whether or not the most recent firmware version contains any changes impacting the 4242 model. Thanks!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Sorry to post again, but no one responded regarding whether or not the most recent firmware version contains any changes impacting the 4242 model. Thanks!


release notes below are for all Radiance Pro models, so, Yes.

*Fixed problem of last pixel on right edge missing. Fix for not getting correct video EDID options when switching to virtual input. Few other small bug fixes.*


----------



## oldvinyl

Technology3456 said:


> Very cool!


graphics pipeline explanation Wikipedia (the source of all knowledge) has a decent explanation of a pipeline, and a in particular a graphics pipeline. Note that the Lumagen pipeline processing "may" be similar in that it performs operations simultaneously on various parts of a pipeline. A pipeline is analogous to an assembly line - parts come in, assembled items leave. The pipeline operates on the inputs, the intermediate stages and the outputs simultaneously. The input would be video (from HDMI), in the middle is the image processing, the output would be the repackaged and formatted HDMI to the projector and audio to the surround processor. The stages are all clocked (advanced) together, the output has the oldest data and the input has the newest input data. 

By the way - a processor (cpu) is made of the same gates that are in an FPGA. In the case of a cpu, the gates are configured as an arithmetic and logic unit, with memory handling and input/output access. In fact, an FPGA can have a cpu core, or even multiple cores, either in the "fabric" (grown during the silicon fabrication) or the designer can create their own cpu from a reference design core. It is not categorically true that a processor is faster than an FPGA. In fact, with the correct devices, both can be clocked at the same speed. The cpu executes software instructions one at a time (or sometimes a few in parallel for threading). An FPGA can be designed and configured to perform multiple simultaneous operations. With the right design, an FPGA can far exceed the performance of a processor. With other designs, the layers and layers of clocked logic will reduce the overall speed of the operations of an FPGA, but as mentioned - it can still do a lot in parallel. 

While the cpu is a fixed design, what it does can be changed by changing the software it executes. FPGAs are configured with hardware design language (vhdl or Verilog). It is not software or firmware; it does not execute instruction by instruction. HDL is a language and describes the way the gates in the FPGA are connected. FPGAs, depending on type, can be reprogrammed with new logic. The reprogramming changes the way the gates and registers are connected. It all looks and seems similar to a software update.


----------



## audioguy

I recently had to get rid of my masking system. Looking for recommended settings for NLS that minimize some of the “deformities” to adjust 16x9, 1:85, and 2.0 to fill my 2:35 screen.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> release notes below are for all Radiance Pro models, so, Yes.
> 
> *Fixed problem of last pixel on right edge missing. Fix for not getting correct video EDID options when switching to virtual input. Few other small bug fixes.*


Thank you for responding. I was aware of that verbiage on the Lumagen support page. Most recent firmware changes appear to be related to the newest model, so I was interested in the specifics of what was altered regarding the prior models (small other bug fixes?).


----------



## WCEaglesMan

docrog said:


> Thank you for responding. I was aware of that verbiage on the Lumagen support page. Most recent firmware changes appear to be related to the newest model, so I was interested in the specifics of what was altered regarding the prior models (small other bug fixes?).


Me too ... I have been holding off doing any update for my 4442.


----------



## bjorg

Beware that the later firmware versions recognize _Input 10_ as valid even on the 4xxx models. I was using a non-existing input to enable my C4 system to switch to the RadiancePro controls without changing inputs, but that no longer works since I used _Input 10_.


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> Beware that the later firmware versions recognize _Input 10_ as valid even on the 4xxx models. I was using a non-existing input to enable my C4 system to switch to the RadiancePro controls without changing inputs, but that no longer works since I used _Input 10_.


If you are using the C4 driver on the Lumagen website, I believe it goes up to Input 18. 

So just assign the C4 (DVD Control) driver to Input 11-18. 

That will allow you to switch to the “Lumagen Control driver” without actually changing inputs. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## PeterLarsson

I actaully have noticed that the motion handling has not been 100% satisfying - especially considering i have a Sony VW790 and Sony generelly is known for the good motion handling.
Just as a try-out i turned the sharpness to off for the first time. I have had it on and on 2 since i bought my Lumagen nov last year and the result was a bit of a surprise. The motion handling that I recognise from before is back and it seems like the sharpness tooö in lumagen has an effect ok that. So important for me - so I Will test with some more movies- of the result is the same i will keep sharpness off. What a pity! Anyone that recognise my observation?


----------



## bjorg

ccool96 said:


> If you are using the C4 driver on the Lumagen website, I believe it goes up to Input 18.
> 
> So just assign the C4 (DVD Control) driver to Input 11-18.
> 
> That will allow you to switch to the “Lumagen Control driver” without actually changing inputs.


I know. It was working that way. I'm just bummed they broke it.


----------



## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> I actaully have noticed that the motion handling has not been 100% satisfying


Could you please specify your observations?


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> I know. It was working that way. I'm just bummed they broke it.


I know it doesn’t work now, for inputs 1-10 because the new 5348 has 10 inputs. 

But it should work like it always did, if you use any input after input 10. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

Seems like the real issue is setups using the C4 module having to rely on a cludge to achieve this which makes an assumption on how many outputs a unit has.
Would be better to add some kind of a null-input to the C4 driver surely, which does nothing to the Radiance on switching to it. Then there are no assumptions about numbers of outputs that you need to take into account...
Input 0 so to speak...


----------



## ccool96

bobof said:


> Seems like the real issue is setups using the C4 module having to rely on a cludge to achieve this which makes an assumption on how many outputs a unit has.
> Would be better to add some kind of a null-input to the C4 driver surely, which does nothing to the Radiance on switching to it. Then there are no assumptions about numbers of outputs that you need to take into account...
> Input 0 so to speak...


Easily done for anyone who wants to create or edit the driver. All that’s required is having an Input 0 or whatever you want to call it, but not having any actual serial or IR code linked to that input. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bjorg

\


ccool96 said:


> I know it doesn’t work now, for inputs 1-10 because the new 5348 has 10 inputs.
> 
> But it should work like it always did, if you use any input after input 10.


Unfortunately, only my C4 installer can do that. I don't have direct access to change it.


----------



## ccool96

bjorg said:


> \
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, only my C4 installer can do that. I don't have direct access to change it.


At least it should be an easy change, if they have remote access. They don’t need to roll a truck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mindedc

ccool96 said:


> At least it should be an easy change, if they have remote access. They don’t need to roll a truck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


If you use the bi-directional driver posted on drivercentral.io it has a "UI" component that is integrated with the driver and doesn't need fake inputs. Regardless of the input active it allows to change to the lumagen menu. It also allows remap of the remote keys, use of the video parameters to automate changes (I.e. dim lights when refresh changes to 24fps), provides a volume and mute overlay for use when the lumagen is switching the video, and allows automation in C4 to send messages to the screen...and a lot more functionality...

Lumagen Radiance bi-directional Control 4 Driver

The freebie driver Is pretty outdated.


----------



## ccool96

mindedc said:


> If you use the bi-directional driver posted on drivercentral.io it has a "UI" component that is integrated with the driver and doesn't need fake inputs. Regardless of the input active it allows to change to the lumagen menu. It also allows remap of the remote keys, use of the video parameters to automate changes (I.e. dim lights when refresh changes to 24fps), provides a volume and mute overlay for use when the lumagen is switching the video, and allows automation in C4 to send messages to the screen...and a lot more functionality...
> 
> Lumagen Radiance bi-directional Control 4 Driver
> 
> The freebie driver Is pretty outdated.


I use the bi-directional driver. Not sure if this is the same one, but it was written by a C4 programmer on AVS, and he gave it to me to help beta test. It’s a fantastic driver and I’m glad to see he now has it listed for sale! 

I use it to trigger my 4-way masking screen using the auto aspect features of the Lumagen. I also use it to switch laser power when it switches from Rec709 to Rec2020. 

But the driver I have still doesn’t give access to the Lumagen on-screen menu. So while I use the bi-directional driver, if you want to have on-screen setup and control using the Lumagen on-screen menu (identical to using the Lumagen remote), you have to use the “dvd transport C4 driver”. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Killroy

I am stumped on the copy (paste) function for settings. I have everything set on my Input1 for my Shield and I want to copy absolutely all those settings to my Input3 for a second Shield (I am experimenting with some apps and I need both units to verify). But for the life of me I cannot get both Inputs to be exact using the copy settings. Yes, I can go setting-by-setting to do it but I think that may take me hours instead of just doing it via copy/paste.

From what I can tell there are three (3) places to copy settings... 1)Input settings, 2)Output settings and 3)Enhancement settings. If I do all three of those both Inputs should be identical right? 

Where I seem to notice differences are aspect ratio and resolution/frame-rate switching. On Input1 they work just the way I have them set-up and they work great but when I switch to the second Shield (Input3) the switching of aspect ratios and res/frame-rate is not the same?


----------



## mindedc

ccool96 said:


> I use the bi-directional driver. Not sure if this is the same one, but it was written by a C4 programmer on AVS, and he gave it to me to help beta test. It’s a fantastic driver and I’m glad to see he now has it listed for sale!
> 
> I use it to trigger my 4-way masking screen using the auto aspect features of the Lumagen. I also use it to switch laser power when it switches from Rec709 to Rec2020.
> 
> But the driver I have still doesn’t give access to the Lumagen on-screen menu. So while I use the bi-directional driver, if you want to have on-screen setup and control using the Lumagen on-screen menu (identical to using the Lumagen remote), you have to use the “dvd transport C4 driver”.


That was me. It took a long time to get through all the red tape with getting set up on the site. Connect with me over PM again and I'll give you a license to the current version on drivercentral. I think there were one or two other beta testers here. I would be glad to upgrade you to the current version.


----------



## ccool96

mindedc said:


> That was me. It took a long time to get through all the red tape with getting set up on the site. Connect with me over PM again and I'll give you a license to the current version on drivercentral. I think there were one or two other beta testers here. I would be glad to upgrade you to the current version.


Will do. It’s a fantastic driver! Anyone that is using a Lumagen with Control4 should have it. 

I sent Jim Peterson at Lumagen a message saying that he needed a link to your two-way driver on his support page. 

It’s 1000% worth the price!

I’ll shoot you a PM. 

Thanks! 
Chris 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ediddy

I can’t look through all of these post but does anyone have an marantz 8805 or a model with on screen menu for the processor. I’m trying to figure out how to pull up my auddessy setup menu with the lumagen connected. Any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## mindedc

Ediddy said:


> I can’t look through all of these post but does anyone have an marantz 8805 or a model with on screen menu for the processor. I’m trying to figure out how to pull up my auddessy setup menu with the lumagen connected. Any help would be greatly appreciated


I used to use a second HDMI cable to input 2 on my PJ for the rare times I needed the marantz menu. I have a different processor with a LCD display and a web interface so I don't really use the on screen now. I think you can also loop the output of the marantz into an input on the lumagen but I seem to remember there are problems with that. You can always try it, it's not like you're going to break anything.... If you're using Control 4 for that (I see it in your tagline) it may not like that pathing and you may have to do it manually when you want to twiddle with your audyssey.


----------



## Karl Maga

Ediddy said:


> I can’t look through all of these post but does anyone have an marantz 8805 or a model with on screen menu for the processor. I’m trying to figure out how to pull up my auddessy setup menu with the lumagen connected. Any help would be greatly appreciated


I also run a second hdmi cable from the 8805 directly to the projector.

However, even that is unnecessary if you have a phone or tablet from which to run the Audyssey MultEQ app, which is highly advisable. In that instance, all the interaction and display of the Audyssey measurement and management functions is on the mobile device screen.


----------



## PeterLarsson

EVH78 said:


> Could you please specify your observations?


OK - let me try. I have had several Sony projectors and also some JVCs. I have always considered Sony being really good in motion handling. The typical judder is really good handled by Sony. I bought VW790 and Lumagen almost at the same time and have always used Sharpness on 2 both on UHDs and Blu-rays. I have also noticed the not so smooth motion handling as one is used to with Sony and I have even brought it up here before. 

I turned the sharpness to "no" and my experience so far is that the motion handling is considerable better. Need more movies to be 100% accurate and sure about it.

I have a theory though: Since the sharpness makes the picture sharper (no ****!) the artifacts is of course more visible. And when "in motion" and sharpness on and applied to a fast moving picture then sharpness might have that consequence. This is only me guessing wild. A good theory perhaps, no one else having the same "issue" or experience?


----------



## Ediddy

Karl Maga said:


> I also run a second hdmi cable from the 8805 directly to the projector.
> 
> However, even that is unnecessary if you have a phone or tablet from which to run the Audyssey MultEQ app, which is highly advisable. In that instance, all the interaction and display of the Audyssey measurement and management functions is on the mobile device screen.


i tried and I thought I had an issue app but it is with Audeyssy. It would not let me add a suband run the program. I had to manual add the sub through the GUI using another HDMI. I don’t think you can do everything on the app that you can do from the GUI


----------



## PeterLarsson

I have tried to gather some relevant information about the combo of Zappiti and Lumagen and especially when it comes to HDR and handling of the same. I really like the idea to get away from my 1000 discs and instead have everything easily available easy. I also like the source direct and feed Lumagen with untouched and unprocessed data to handle.

However, when I have started to dig into Zappiti I have understood that the master data of MaxCLL/MaxFall is not passed from the original material to Lumagen (or display for that matter) which makes me uncertain about the quality of HDR will decrease and be visible worse which I of course dont want since I think Lumagen does magic with HDR.

You guys that own Zappiti and Lumagen, have you compared the end result with master data available and not and perhaps the bottleneck by setting the MaxCLL to 4000 in Lumagen as a generic value for every HDR movie?

One can hope for an updated version of Zapppiti with that enabled. It is a surprise how Zappiti HDR Pro can be ISF certified when such a important feature is missing. Hoping for your feedback!


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

PeterLarsson said:


> I have tried to gather some relevant information about the combo of Zappiti and Lumagen and especially when it comes to HDR and handling of the same. I really like the idea to get away from my 1000 discs and instead have everything easily available easy. I also like the source direct and feed Lumagen with untouched and unprocessed data to handle.
> 
> However, when I have started to dig into Zappiti I have understood that the master data of MaxCLL/MaxFall is not passed from the original material to Lumagen (or display for that matter) which makes me uncertain about the quality of HDR will decrease and be visible worse which I of course dont want since I think Lumagen does magic with HDR.
> 
> You guys that own Zappiti and Lumagen, have you compared the end result with master data available and not and perhaps the bottleneck by setting the MaxCLL to 4000 in Lumagen as a generic value for every HDR movie?
> 
> One can hope for an updated version of Zapppiti with that enabled. It is a surprise how Zappiti HDR Pro can be ISF certified when such a important feature is missing. Hoping for your feedback!


The Odroid N2 running Coreelec is a great option. It sends proper HDR metadata


----------



## audioguy

i have a Zappiti and Lumagen. Works great. I had it calibrated professionally (Craig Rounds). One of my clients does as well. Can’t answer any technical question on how he made it work, but he did. I also use a Shield which does pass meta data and can see no differences.


----------



## docrog

What is the applicability of Non Linear Stretch for those RP owners with a 16:9 AR screen and no Panamorph (etc.) lens? Thanks!


----------



## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> I
> 
> However, when I have started to dig into Zappiti I have understood that the master data of MaxCLL/MaxFall is not passed from the original material to Lumagen (or display for that matter) which makes me uncertain about the quality of HDR will decrease and be visible worse which I of course dont want since I think Lumagen does magic with HDR.


It is my understanding that the passing of metadata in your case is totally irrelevant since the Lumagen does frame by frame analysis since you are (hopefully) using dynamic tone mapping whic does HDR2020 to SDR2020 conversion.


----------



## PeterLarsson

EVH78 said:


> It is my understanding that the passing of metadata in your case is totally irrelevant since the Lumagen does frame by frame analysis since you are (hopefully) using dynamic tone mapping whic does HDR2020 to SDR2020 conversion.


I do exactly that - sending the tone mapped HDR content in an SDR container BT2020 to my Sony VW790. However, are you sure that MaxCLL/MaxFALL is not used in Lumagen? Why do even Lumagen care about that then? And that you can set a static number like 4000 nits in Lumagen if not for any kind of use?


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> What is the applicability of Non Linear Stretch for those RP owners with a 16:9 AR screen and no Panamorph (etc.) lens? Thanks!


NLS doesn't work with a 16x9 output display. If you want to eliminate the black bars above and below for this, you would use the zoom function, which is typically programmed into the remote as the top and bottom arrow keys. 



EVH78 said:


> It is my understanding that the passing of metadata in your case is totally irrelevant since the Lumagen does frame by frame analysis since you are (hopefully) using dynamic tone mapping whic does HDR2020 to SDR2020 conversion.


Lumagen still uses the metadata for certain cues for the initial tone mapping parameters and then obviously does the frame adaption. But the metadata can deliver some soft limits that make it easier for the tone map to have some built in limits so you are not starting with any information.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> NLS doesn't work with a 16x9 output display. If you want to eliminate the black bars above and below for this, you would use the zoom function, which is typically programmed into the remote as the top and bottom arrow keys.


I thought one could use NLS to stretch 4:3 content to fill a 16:9 display (I would never do this, but I think the Lumagen does support this).

edit: Oh yeah, found the tech tip about it:



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0020_HowToWatch43ContentOnA169Display_112613.pdf


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> NLS doesn't work with a 16x9 output display. If you want to eliminate the black bars above and below for this, you would use the zoom function, which is typically programmed into the remote as the top and bottom arrow keys.


The only thing I use NLS for is 4:3 content on a 16:9 screen. Prefer it instead of just zooming. Maybe just me or is there a better method? Thanks. SJ

http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0020_HowToWatch43ContentOnA169Display_112613.pdf


----------



## sjschaff

PeterLarsson said:


> I have tried to gather some relevant information about the combo of Zappiti and Lumagen and especially when it comes to HDR and handling of the same. I really like the idea to get away from my 1000 discs and instead have everything easily available easy. I also like the source direct and feed Lumagen with untouched and unprocessed data to handle.
> 
> However, when I have started to dig into Zappiti I have understood that the master data of MaxCLL/MaxFall is not passed from the original material to Lumagen (or display for that matter) which makes me uncertain about the quality of HDR will decrease and be visible worse which I of course dont want since I think Lumagen does magic with HDR.
> 
> You guys that own Zappiti and Lumagen, have you compared the end result with master data available and not and perhaps the bottleneck by setting the MaxCLL to 4000 in Lumagen as a generic value for every HDR movie?
> 
> One can hope for an updated version of Zapppiti with that enabled. It is a surprise how Zappiti HDR Pro can be ISF certified when such a important feature is missing. Hoping for your feedback!


You're discovery is not new. A review from Kris in late 2019 noted this. It has to do with the limitations of the processing chip they have been using. As I understand it, they should have new product out with a more current chip this summer which will support what is needed by the Lumagen for obtaining full metadata. Maybe Kris or Jim can more specifically tell us why the lack of such support even matters for those of us using a Lumagen Pro with all of its capabilities.

I've been using a Zappiti Pro ACE for a few months now. It's better both sonically and visually from the Nvidia Shield I'd been previously using. And it's library management is very impressive (vs. both Kodi and Plex). But then I'm comparing a much higher price version of what Zappiti offers to the Shield. I'd have stayed with the Shield but for issues with Kodi audio dropouts and Plex lack of support for ISO and full BDMV. Unfortunately, I've not experience putting a comparable Zappiti player head-to-head with the Shield or players of similar costs.


----------



## Mark Burton

PeterLarsson said:


> I have tried to gather some relevant information about the combo of Zappiti and Lumagen and especially when it comes to HDR and handling of the same. I really like the idea to get away from my 1000 discs and instead have everything easily available easy. I also like the source direct and feed Lumagen with untouched and unprocessed data to handle.
> 
> However, when I have started to dig into Zappiti I have understood that the master data of MaxCLL/MaxFall is not passed from the original material to Lumagen (or display for that matter) which makes me uncertain about the quality of HDR will decrease and be visible worse which I of course dont want since I think Lumagen does magic with HDR.
> 
> You guys that own Zappiti and Lumagen, have you compared the end result with master data available and not and perhaps the bottleneck by setting the MaxCLL to 4000 in Lumagen as a generic value for every HDR movie?
> 
> One can hope for an updated version of Zapppiti with that enabled. It is a surprise how Zappiti HDR Pro can be ISF certified when such a important feature is missing. Hoping for your feedback!


I’ve got the audiocom edition of the zappiti pro. Incredible picture and audio forced me to sell my oppo 203. Absolutely no issues with any hdr content.

You need to get the settings right in the Zappiti to get it to play nice with the Sony (I have a 760), but can share them with you if you decide to get one.

I’ll never go to disc again, far too much hassle now, wish I’d moved to digital streaming years ago.


----------



## audioguy

sjschaff said:


> You're discovery is not new. A review from Kris in late 2019 noted this. It has to do with the limitations of the processing chip they have been using. As I understand it, they should have new product out with a more current chip this summer which will support what is needed by the Lumagen for obtaining full metadata. Maybe Kris or Jim can more specifically tell us why the lack of such support even matters for those of us using a Lumagen Pro with all of its capabilities.
> 
> I've been using a Zappiti Pro ACE for a few months now. It's better both sonically and visually from the Nvidia Shield I'd been previously using. And it's library management is very impressive (vs. both Kodi and Plex). But then I'm comparing a much higher price version of what Zappiti offers to the Shield. I'd have stayed with the Shield but for issues with Kodi audio dropouts and Plex lack of support for ISO and full BDMV. Unfortunately, I've not experience putting a comparable Zappiti player head-to-head with the Shield or players of similar costs.


The only issue I am having with the Zappiti Pro HDR is it's inability, too many times, to find new discs that I add (I use MakeMKV). My files are organized as I like to use them on my Nvidia (I was using a Shield years prior to acquiring the Zappiti). That is, within the main Movie Folder, I have sub folders for things like (Next Up, Blu Ray Movies, Concert Videos, 4K Movies, etc). I was told by the technical folks at Zappiti that they just want ONE folder (Movies) and no sub folders, though the documentation says I can use sub folders. If I could get that issue solved, I would get rid of my Shield. Any ideas?

I know this is not the Zappiti forum so if you would like to PM me that would be fine -- or we could go to the Zappiti thread.

Thanks


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen still uses the metadata for certain cues for the initial tone mapping parameters and then obviously does the frame adaption. But the metadata can deliver some soft limits that make it easier for the tone map to have some built in limits so you are not starting with any information.


I'm not sure it's right to refer to them as soft limits, they seemed pretty hard to me when I last tested them (I'm not complaining, just observing). If you have 1000 nit metadata on the source but pixel data above the 1000 nits, then you will have clipping above the 1000 nit "ceiling", I couldn't seem to do anything to make the clipping go away. I proved this with some test ramps I made (you can download them in my sig and play with an Oppo over a network, for instance) though Stacey Spears is putting a proper chart in his next release of disc.

Edit: link here:





p3v2020.zip







drive.google.com




The pixel data is identical in the two ramps (ie 0-10000 nits) but the metadata is as indicated in the file name.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I'm not sure it's right to refer to them as soft limits, they seemed pretty hard to me when I last tested them (I'm not complaining, just observing). If you have 1000 nit metadata on the source but pixel data above the 1000 nits, then you will have clipping above the 1000 nit "ceiling", I couldn't seem to do anything to make the clipping go away. I proved this with some test ramps I made (you can download them in my sig and play with an Oppo over a network, for instance) though Stacey Spears is putting a proper chart in his next release of disc.
> 
> Edit: link here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> p3v2020.zip
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pixel data is identical in the two ramps (ie 0-10000 nits) but the metadata is as indicated in the file name.


They do set the ceiling for sure, and this is so you are not wasting range. There are very few titles that have a MaxCLL or mastering monitor max that exceed the values provided, but there are plenty that are wrong in the other direction (CLL exceeds mastering monitor or there is nothing at all) that would hurt the tone mapping if it was given free range. We used these rules extensively back in the static tone mapping days of Lumagen and they worked really well in preventing wasted range with titles that reported bad data. For the 1-2 titles this may hurt in some way, there are a large list that it benefits greatly. Every time Lumagen has looked at removing these rules, the image suffers for it (I've done LOTS of testing behind the scenes with beta releases on this). So while not perfect, most will never have any noticeable issues unless they do some stress test with something that is designed to trip it up or some rare title that may be affected. But again, for that one issue you are saving yourself from so many more with other titles.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> They do set the ceiling for sure, and this is so you are not wasting range. There are very few titles that have a MaxCLL or mastering monitor max that exceed the values provided, but there are plenty that are wrong in the other direction (CLL exceeds mastering monitor or there is nothing at all) that would hurt the tone mapping if it was given free range. We used these rules extensively back in the static tone mapping days of Lumagen and they worked really well in preventing wasted range with titles that reported bad data. For the 1-2 titles this may hurt in some way, there are a large list that it benefits greatly. Every time Lumagen has looked at removing these rules, the image suffers for it (I've done LOTS of testing behind the scenes with beta releases on this). So while not perfect, most will never have any noticeable issues unless they do some stress test with something that is designed to trip it up or some rare title that may be affected. But again, for that one issue you are saving yourself from so many more with other titles.


Sure, I'm aware why it's done and as I say I wasn't complaining, it was just a nit-pick over the use of the word soft  I certainly don't take issue with the way it behaves as the Lumagen now provides a fine way to deal with it on a per source basis where the source is badly behaved. I think it's more likely to be an issue with badly behaved sources (maybe I should have said devices) than content, of which there may be a few titles but I'm sure they are few and far between. My test videos were just one way to visualise how a badly behaved source would look without having access to one (all my devices output correct data I think).


----------



## hau80

HI, I'm buying one of these devices (5348) and wanted to buy a linear power supply to go along with it. I looked at the Farad Super3 and wanted to make sure I have it configured corrected, I'm in the US. 110-120Vac for the AC Mains and at least 12V for the DC Output?


----------



## Mike_WI

hau80 said:


> ly to go along with it. I looked at the Farad Super3 and wanted to make sure I have it co


FYI...

*Keces P8*
KECES

*2021 Jan 11 - Nattpol - AVS*
New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
Hello, everyone.
I know that the Radiance Pro power supply is switching power supply(12V 5A).
Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?
Thank you for your help and support.
///

*2021 Jan 11 - JRP - AVS*
New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

People often ask me if a Linear Power Supply is a good idea. In short, yes, it can provide improvement. I have a few people who have switched to a Linear Power Supply and the feedback has been positive.

As I have discussed, HDMI jitter, and the electrical noise in the HDMI signal and back to the mains, can affect audio quality, and in some cases video quality.

I have discussed that lower-jitter can reduce the bit-error-rate of an HDMI signal. Lower HDMI clock jitter will also mean the de-jitter circuits in the audio processor start with a cleaner signal and so can send a lower-jitter signal to the DAC's. Lower jitter at the DAC leads to lower distortion in the audio. This can be heard, but how much is system dependent.

The linear power supply will act as a noise buffer between the Radiance Pro's high speed digital electronics and the mains. This noise reduction can improve the wall power going to the power amplifiers, and there is the possibility the lower noise floor may improve audio.

The Linear power supply also provides a cleaner, lower electrical-noise-floor power to the Radiance Pro itself. Noise floor can directly affect output jitter to some degree. Also a lower electrical-noise-floor in the Radiance Pro may mean a lower-noise-floor on the HDMI output injected in the the audio-processor and the projector/TV. A lower electrical-noise-floor can mean an improvement in the audio signal-to-noise ratio. For video a lower electrical-noise-floor for an analog display technology (DiLA and LCOS are analog at the display level) can reduce background noise in the image.

Note that I use "can" and "may" and "potentially" for these comments. I do this since any improvement is system dependent. You may not hear or see any improvement, but you might. I have heard some improvement form a linear supply for audio, but this is a subtle improvement. If you want the absolute best audio, then I believe you will be happy spending the money on an excellent "audio quality" linear power supply for the Radiance Pro.

I mentioned there is a chance that you might see a video improvement. However, if you do it would be subtle, and once again you may not see any improvement.

I wish I could be more adamant you will hear and see an improvement. Unfortunately any improvement is system and viewer/listener dependent. For those who want the best audio and video, I think a linear power supply for the Pro is a good investment. Just understand your mileage may vary.

I plan to purchase a Keces P8 12 VDC at 8 Amp single output supply (KECES) as soon as they come back in stock, for my testing here. There are other brands of high end linear power supplies that could also suit this application.


----------



## PeterLarsson

audioguy said:


> i have a Zappiti and Lumagen. Works great. I had it calibrated professionally (Craig Rounds). One of my clients does as well. Can’t answer any technical question on how he made it work, but he did. I also use a Shield which does pass meta data and can see no differences.


Sounds good!




Mark Burton said:


> I’ve got the audiocom edition of the zappiti pro. Incredible picture and audio forced me to sell my oppo 203. Absolutely no issues with any hdr content.
> 
> You need to get the settings right in the Zappiti to get it to play nice with the Sony (I have a 760), but can share them with you if you decide to get one.
> 
> I’ll never go to disc again, far too much hassle now, wish I’d moved to digital streaming years ago.


Thanks a lot. However my system is calibrated and my only concern is the missing HDR metadata.


It would be really great to hear @jrp view and potential draw backs of missing the HDR masterdata. And thank you all for great inputs. Now i am leaning to start the make mkvs or m2ts work and Either go for Dune or wait for an updated version of Zappiti.


----------



## Mark Burton

PeterLarsson said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot. However my system is calibrated and my only concern is the missing HDR metadata.
> 
> 
> It would be really great to hear @jrp view and potential draw backs of missing the HDR masterdata. And thank you all for great inputs. Now i am leaning to start the make mkvs or m2ts work and Either go for Dune or wait for an updated version of Zappiti.


My system is also calibrated.

When I originally got the Zappiti it had been calibrated prior to this, seeing the image led me to selling the oppo.

I had it calibrated again two weeks ago when I got a 5348.

The image is stunning.

I had to watch Batman v Superman on disc last week using a Panasonic 820 as the encryption on the disc was too early to rip.

Picture noise was far more obvious with less depth to the image. I tested again a couple of days later when I finally ripped the disc. The Zappiti was clearly better is every department.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Ok - that sounds great 😊. My ambition is - as I use my UB-820 as a transporter to Lumagen. I would like to do the same with Zappiti and let Lumagen do the fancy stuff. However the lack of MaxCLL/MaxFALL is perhaps not a 100% dealbreaker but some kind of impact i have understood. Therefore it would technically be great to hear what the potential draw back could be @jrp


----------



## feelthesound

If Jim come by, about the Dolby vision and an Edid compatible LLDV:

What about a tool for let people do an « edid update » as they wish? As HD fury.

i think, this is the solution for let people use an edid with LLDV without charge the responsability of Lumagen.

Edit the lumagen tool box for update is not that difficult and it can be a solution.


----------



## hau80

Mike_WI said:


> FYI...
> 
> *Keces P8*
> KECES
> 
> *2021 Jan 11 - Nattpol - AVS*
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> Hello, everyone.
> I know that the Radiance Pro power supply is switching power supply(12V 5A).
> Has anyone ever changed the switching power supply to linear power supply?
> Does linear power supply improve video quality for the Radiance Pro?
> Do you have a suggestion for linear power supply brand?
> Thank you for your help and support.
> ///
> 
> *2021 Jan 11 - JRP - AVS*
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> People often ask me if a Linear Power Supply is a good idea. In short, yes, it can provide improvement. I have a few people who have switched to a Linear Power Supply and the feedback has been positive.
> 
> As I have discussed, HDMI jitter, and the electrical noise in the HDMI signal and back to the mains, can affect audio quality, and in some cases video quality.
> 
> I have discussed that lower-jitter can reduce the bit-error-rate of an HDMI signal. Lower HDMI clock jitter will also mean the de-jitter circuits in the audio processor start with a cleaner signal and so can send a lower-jitter signal to the DAC's. Lower jitter at the DAC leads to lower distortion in the audio. This can be heard, but how much is system dependent.
> 
> The linear power supply will act as a noise buffer between the Radiance Pro's high speed digital electronics and the mains. This noise reduction can improve the wall power going to the power amplifiers, and there is the possibility the lower noise floor may improve audio.
> 
> The Linear power supply also provides a cleaner, lower electrical-noise-floor power to the Radiance Pro itself. Noise floor can directly affect output jitter to some degree. Also a lower electrical-noise-floor in the Radiance Pro may mean a lower-noise-floor on the HDMI output injected in the the audio-processor and the projector/TV. A lower electrical-noise-floor can mean an improvement in the audio signal-to-noise ratio. For video a lower electrical-noise-floor for an analog display technology (DiLA and LCOS are analog at the display level) can reduce background noise in the image.
> 
> Note that I use "can" and "may" and "potentially" for these comments. I do this since any improvement is system dependent. You may not hear or see any improvement, but you might. I have heard some improvement form a linear supply for audio, but this is a subtle improvement. If you want the absolute best audio, then I believe you will be happy spending the money on an excellent "audio quality" linear power supply for the Radiance Pro.
> 
> I mentioned there is a chance that you might see a video improvement. However, if you do it would be subtle, and once again you may not see any improvement.
> 
> I wish I could be more adamant you will hear and see an improvement. Unfortunately any improvement is system and viewer/listener dependent. For those who want the best audio and video, I think a linear power supply for the Pro is a good investment. Just understand your mileage may vary.
> 
> I plan to purchase a Keces P8 12 VDC at 8 Amp single output supply (KECES) as soon as they come back in stock, for my testing here. There are other brands of high end linear power supplies that could also suit this application.


Ok, thanks. I will just go with the Keces P8 and be done with it.


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen still uses the metadata for certain cues for the initial tone mapping parameters and then obviously does the frame adaption.


I had no idea that the metadata was still important for DTM. I thought the radiance was analysing frame by frame and not depending on metadata. I bet there must be complications by various players then.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

feelthesound said:


> If Jim come by, about the Dolby vision and an Edid compatible LLDV:
> 
> What about a tool for let people do an « edid update » as they wish? As HD fury.
> 
> i think, this is the solution for let people use an edid with LLDV without charge the responsability of Lumagen.
> 
> Edit the lumagen tool box for update is not that difficult and it can be a solution.


I think that this is a recipe for disaster. You can say that lumagen don't need to support it but you can bet that wont stop everyone from inundating them with support emails and calls.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mark Burton said:


> My system is also calibrated.
> 
> When I originally got the Zappiti it had been calibrated prior to this, seeing the image led me to selling the oppo.
> 
> I had it calibrated again two weeks ago when I got a 5348.
> 
> The image is stunning.
> 
> I had to watch Batman v Superman on disc last week using a Panasonic 820 as the encryption on the disc was too early to rip.
> 
> Picture noise was far more obvious with less depth to the image. I tested again a couple of days later when I finally ripped the disc. The Zappiti was clearly better is every department.


I have the Zappiti HDR duo, the cheaper sibling of the pro and audiocom editions.

From a quality point of view one of the best features is the direct out option which lets your lumagen or display do the scaling. One title where this made a big difference was the Pulp Fiction Blu-Ray. Via my UB-9000 disc player, some scenes had noise which got pretty distracting. Eg. Where they go to Tarantino’s house after accidentally shooting Marvin, the wallpaper in the kitchen scene flickered like mad. Ripping the disc with MakeMKV and playing via Zappiti resolved it.
For HDR I use the info button to see what the MaxCLL should be or use VLC on my PC, then set the MaxCLL to match it on the lumagen, it’s a little bit of extra work but usually the default max of 1000 is the correct value, I have a memory for 4000 too for a quick switch... tbh, I’m not sure I’d notice the difference but I often do it anyway since I have control4 controlling my lumagen so it’s all from the remote.

One downside to the Zappiti is it doesn’t handle VC-1 content too well and there’s w stutter, e.g. Nightmare on Elmstreet 80’s version.

Overall though I’d say it’s a very good player and probably the best available if you want something that just works well with minimal fuss


----------



## edthomp

Looks like Kaleidescape is a partner in the film maker mode effort . Will be curious to see how that actually plays out and what it means for the Lumagen.
*Filmmaker Mode | Experience UHD | Ultra High-Definition Premium™*








www.experienceuhd.com


----------



## jrp

ccool96 said:


> Will do. It’s a fantastic driver! Anyone that is using a Lumagen with Control4 should have it. I sent Jim Peterson at Lumagen a message saying that he needed a link to your two-way driver on his support page. It’s 1000% worth the price!


The link to Doug's new bidirectional Control4 driver on drivercentral.io is now on the Lumagen website here: Lumagen

The actual driver is here: https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/audio-video/lumagen/


----------



## ccool96

jrp said:


> The link to Doug's new bidirectional Control4 driver on drivercentral.io is now on the Lumagen website here: Lumagen
> 
> The actual driver is here: https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/audio-video/lumagen/


That’s great Jim! The driver is fantastic! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> The link to Doug's new bidirectional Control4 driver on drivercentral.io is now on the Lumagen website here: Lumagen
> 
> The actual driver is here: https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/audio-video/lumagen/


What kinds of things can this driver do? My integrator uses some kind of C4/Lumagen If I driver but only provides things like input switching, etc. Things like selecting NLS or different aspect ratios I have to do on the Lumagen remote.


----------



## JFR0317

There's a good description of what the driver can do on the DriverCentral website link Jim posted above.


----------



## ccool96

audioguy said:


> What kinds of things can this driver do? My integrator uses some kind of C4/Lumagen If I driver but only provides things like input switching, etc. Things like selecting NLS or different aspect ratios I have to do on the Lumagen remote.


Because it provides 2-way feedback to Control4 I use it for 2 major items. 

I use this driver in conjunction with Lumagen “auto aspect ratio detection” to automatically adjust the masking on my 4-way masking screen and to change lens memory presets on my projector. 

I also use the feedback info the driver provides to determine if the content coming into the Lumagen is HDR or SDR and it automatically adjust the laser power level setting on my projector. 

But it can do can trigger events for just about any possible item you can imagine. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> I had no idea that the metadata was still important for DTM. I thought the radiance was analysing frame by frame and not depending on metadata. I bet there must be complications by various players then.


As Kris noted we considered taking out any use of MaxCLL or MaxMon (mastering monitor max light output). However, there were titles that the MaxCLL information helped the image quality, and so we kept it in the mix - but only to limit the brightest scenes from being "padded" above the MaxCLL.

Every frame is analyzed by the Radiance Pro, and DTM sets the transfer function for every scene (on the first frame of the scene), and then adapts the transfer function within the scene. The DTM uses "DynPad" to set up some headroom such that if a scene goes from dark to bright quickly, no clipping will occur. With the adaptation, we were able to reduce the amount of pad, but it is still needed for some scenes.

What the MaxCLL is used for is to know the maximum for any scene so that it is not "padded" to a level higher than the maximum possible. For example, consider a 1000 nit MaxCLL, and a scene that calculates out (before pad) at 950 nits. With a larger DynPad, the pad might add (as an example only and not as an actual value) say 150 nits to that scene. 

So in this arbitrary example the DTM would set the scene maximum at 1100 nits if MaxCLL was not used. With a MaxCLL = 1000 the DTM limits the pad to 1000 nits. Said another way a 950 scene would never rise above 1000 nits in this example, and so no need to ever pad to over 1000 nits. The scene would be improved by limiting the scene to the maximum the source provider specifies, rather than a dynamic calculation.

For a device like the current Zapitti, a "Default Max" of 1000 would show clipping for content mastered above 1000 nits. However, there is very little downside to setting the Zappiti input to a Default Max of 4000, since the MaxCLL _only_ affects a scene that would have been padded to above the correct MaxCLL. Even then the difference is subtle. For a 1000 nit MaxCLL, scenes even up to 800 nits are not going to be affected if a MaxCLL of 1000 is raised to 4000. So overall DTM using MaxCLL affects very few scenes and those it affects are improved.

This is an over simplification of all that is involved, but I hope gets across why we kept MaxCLL in the DTM calculation.


----------



## PeterLarsson

jrp said:


> As Kris noted we considered taking out any use of MaxCLL or MaxMon (mastering monitor max light output). However, there were titles that the MaxCLL information helped the image quality, and so we kept it in the mix - but only to limit the brightest scenes from being "padded" above the MaxCLL.
> 
> Every frame is analyzed by the Radiance Pro, and DTM sets the transfer function for every scene (on the first frame of the scene), and then adapts the transfer function within the scene. The DTM uses "DynPad" to set up some headroom such that if a scene goes from dark to bright quickly, no clipping will occur. With the adaptation, we were able to reduce the amount of pad, but it is still needed for some scenes.
> 
> What the MaxCLL is used for is to know the maximum for any scene so that it is not "padded" to a level higher than the maximum possible. For example, consider a 1000 nit MaxCLL, and a scene that calculates out (before pad) at 950 nits. With a larger DynPad, the pad might add (as an example only and not as an actual value) say 150 nits to that scene.
> 
> So in this arbitrary example the DTM would set the scene maximum at 1100 nits if MaxCLL was not used. With a MaxCLL = 1000 the DTM limits the pad to 1000 nits. Said another way a 950 scene would never rise above 1000 nits in this example, and so no need to ever pad to over 1000 nits. The scene would be improved by limiting the scene to the maximum the source provider specifies, rather than a dynamic calculation.
> 
> For a device like the current Zapitti, a "Default Max" of 1000 would show clipping for content mastered above 1000 nits. However, there is very little downside to setting the Zappiti input to a Default Max of 4000, since the MaxCLL _only_ affects a scene that would have been padded to above the correct MaxCLL. Even then the difference is subtle. For a 1000 nit MaxCLL, scenes even up to 800 nits are not going to be affected if a MaxCLL of 1000 is raised to 4000. So overall DTM using MaxCLL affects very few scenes and those it affects are improved.
> 
> This is an over simplification of all that is involved, but I hope gets across why we kept MaxCLL in the DTM calculation.


Wow - Thanks a lot for the explanation. Even I - not being very technical - understand how lack of getting that information (MaxCLL) will potenially affect tone mapping.
Also - based on your information - I can happily buy a Zappiti and probably not even ever notice any differences ever with setting max default to 4000.

Again - the information one gets here and straight from you Jim makes me more and more convinced I made a perfec decision to move to Lumagen 😊


----------



## Mark Burton

garyolearysteele said:


> One downside to the Zappiti is it doesn’t handle VC-1 content too well and there’s w stutter, e.g. Nightmare on Elmstreet 80’s version.


If you rip through the Zappiti nasrip (or possibly any other iso rip) vc-1 encodes play fine. Horrible though through mkv.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

jrp said:


> ...
> This is an over simplification of all that is involved, but I hope gets across why we kept MaxCLL in the DTM calculation.


Dear Jim,

Gianluca here.

Is it possible to know how the PRO behaves when the MaxCLL is reported as Zero by the source?

Thanks!


----------



## MDesigns

Gianluca Vignini said:


> Dear Jim,
> 
> Gianluca here.
> 
> Is it possible to know how the PRO behaves when the MaxCLL is reported as Zero by the source?
> 
> Thanks!


Or what if it is 10 or maybe 100? Probably there is some limit when it recognizes it must be false?


----------



## MOberhardt

PeterLarsson said:


> Wow - Thanks a lot for the explanation. Even I - not being very technical - understand how lack of getting that information (MaxCLL) will potenially affect tone mapping.
> Also - based on your information - I can happily buy a Zappiti and probably not even ever notice any differences ever with setting max default to 4000.
> 
> Again - the information one gets here and straight from you Jim makes me more and more convinced I made a perfec decision to move to Lumagen 😊


Not to mention physical footprint, power consumption, noise (eg zero noise)...


----------



## Kris Deering

Gianluca Vignini said:


> Dear Jim,
> 
> Gianluca here.
> 
> Is it possible to know how the PRO behaves when the MaxCLL is reported as Zero by the source?
> 
> Thanks!


It uses the reported mastering monitor max. If that is not present, it uses the default that the client selects in the input setup (default is 4000). Also, if MaxCLL is greater than the mastering monitor max (as all HBO Max titles are), it uses the mastering monitor max. For example, Justice League on HBO Max reports 10,000 for all HDR titles MaxCLL, but 1000 for the mastering monitor. So in this case, the Lumagen uses 1000.


----------



## Kris Deering

MDesigns said:


> Or what if it is 10 or maybe 100? Probably there is some limit when it recognizes it must be false?


It uses the lower number. I am not aware of any content out there that uses numbers even close to that low though. A good example of a low number is BR2049. Using that as the max makes a big difference with that title since it is nearly an SDR grade and you don't want to waste range for content that isn't even there in the first place.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> It uses the reported mastering monitor max. If that is not present, it uses the default that the client selects in the input setup (default is 4000). Also, if MaxCLL is greater than the mastering monitor max (as all HBO Max titles are), it uses the mastering monitor max. For example, Justice League on HBO Max reports 10,000 for all HDR titles MaxCLL, but 1000 for the mastering monitor. So in this case, the Lumagen uses 1000.


Kris, would the RP be best left at the default of 4,000 when paired with an NX7 or is a different value preferable? If so, what would you recommend? Also, what is the quickest mechanism to access (and, possibly, change) this value? Thanks, as always, for your guidance!


----------



## jrp

Gianluca Vignini said:


> Is it possible to know how the PRO behaves when the MaxCLL is reported as Zero by the source?


If MaxxCLL is reported as 0 by the source device there are two possibilities, assuming the new manual override used for the Zappiti is not enabled.

If 0 is reported for MaxCLL, then the Pro checks to see if the MaxMon is specified as not zero. If it is reported, it is in our experience accurate (e.g. 1000, 1100, or 4000 for almost all cases). In this case, the MaxMon is used as MaxCLL since, for example, on a 1000 nit monitor (MaxMon = 1000) nothing over 1000 nits would be visible to the post production team, and using MaxCLL as 1000 works very well. In addition if MaxCLL is above MaxMon then MaxMon is used by DTM as the MaxCLL for the same reasoning as above.

If both MaxCLL and MaxMon are zero, then DTM uses "Default Max" in the Input menu as MaxCLL.


----------



## acmcool

I am trying to figure out which lumagen processor would work for me...also are lumagen processors hardware upgradable when new hdmi comes out?


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mark Burton said:


> If you rip through the Zappiti nasrip (or possibly any other iso rip) vc-1 encodes play fine. Horrible though through mkv.


My rips are ISO rips in the main, byte for byte extracted not transcoded in any way. I emailed Zappiti support and they said it’s a limitation of the chip they use and recommended converting to another format using handbrake or similar





__





[Video] Image Drop Out : Codecs – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions






zappiti.uservoice.com


----------



## tibia

Yesterday I took delivery of a brand new RS3000. In familiarizing myself with it, I see it includes many new features (compared to my previous RS600 projector) that attempt much of the signal processing as my Lumagen Pro. I want to avoid any double processing and have the Pro handle 99% of signal processing and display calibration duties. 

For any other Pro and RS3000 owners, I would like to know how you setup your RS3000 so as to not have it compete with your Pro for both SDR and 4K UHD media. Thank you for any advice.

Dennis


----------



## Surge2018

[deleted]


----------



## Kris Deering

acmcool said:


> I am trying to figure out which lumagen processor would work for me...also are lumagen processors hardware upgradable when new hdmi comes out?


I know a guy.....



tibia said:


> Yesterday I took delivery of a brand new RS3000. In familiarizing myself with it, I see it includes many new features (compared to my previous RS600 projector) that attempt much of the signal processing as my Lumagen Pro. I want to avoid any double processing and have the Pro handle 99% of signal processing and display calibration duties.
> 
> For any other Pro and RS3000 owners, I would like to know how you setup your RS3000 so as to not have it compete with your Pro for both SDR and 4K UHD media. Thank you for any advice.
> 
> Dennis


I know a guy....



Surge2018 said:


> Can someone help me on the most efficient way to setup a new projector? I want to copy all the settings that I use with my Sony - except the calibration settings; but with a JVC.


I know a guy....


----------



## Killroy

You have to love Kris' subtleties.


----------



## Mark Burton

garyolearysteele said:


> My rips are ISO rips in the main, byte for byte extracted not transcoded in any way. I emailed Zappiti support and they said it’s a limitation of the chip they use and recommended converting to another format using handbrake or similar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Video] Image Drop Out : Codecs – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zappiti.uservoice.com


That’s interesting, although I can assure you that using the nasrip solves the problem completely.

I rip both mkv and iso, but only use the nasrip for iso, any vc-1 encode I make sure is ripped by the nasrip and then I get zero stutter.

Sorry for off topic.


----------



## Surge2018

Kris Deering said:


> I know a guy.....


Can the guy come to Canada?! 

Off topic but the RS3000 is quite impressive right out of the box. I am starting to see what you mean, Kris, especially as it compares to the Sony 995.


----------



## MOberhardt

Regards to zapitti issues is this also a problem with zidoo units? I rarely use the zidoo but mainly use it for 3d remuxes. I've never tried a 4k remux, although I've built a couple and will shortly. Should I try figure how to put my 4k remux to disc?


----------



## steelman1991

MOberhardt said:


> Regards to zapitti issues is this also a problem with zidoo units? I rarely use the zidoo but mainly use it for 3d remuxes. I've never tried a 4k remux, although I've built a couple and will shortly. Should I try figure how to put my 4k remux to disc?


I use a Zidoo Z9X and don’t have any issues with 4K remixes. There does seem to be an issue with PCM tracks where the left surround speaker doesn’t produce sound, but they are so few and far that it doesn’t really impact me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bill DePalma

I have recently ordered a Zappiti Pro and after reading the many comments concerning issues with the Zappiti I am definitely second guessing my purchase. Primarily, all of my files are MKV, more than 1000 Blu-ray full resolution rips. They all play great in my Plex setup but after reading the comments I am doubting whether they will play so nicely on the Zappiti. Any input would be greatly appreciated. The unit has not shipped, so I would like to cancel my order if the Zappiti is going to be more trouble than I expected. all of these files are 1080 if that has any impact.
thanks
Bill


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Bill DePalma said:


> I have recently ordered a Zappiti Pro and after reading the many comments concerning issues with the Zappiti I am definitely second guessing my purchase. Primarily, all of my files are MKV, more than 1000 Blu-ray full resolution rips. They all play great in my Plex setup but after reading the comments I am doubting whether they will play so nicely on the Zappiti. Any input would be greatly appreciated. The unit has not shipped, so I would like to cancel my order if the Zappiti is going to be more trouble than I expected. all of these files are 1080 if that has any impact.
> thanks
> Bill


Odroid N2 running coreelec is the best player at the moment

It will:
Output HDR metadata
Output native file resolution “no upscaling”
Full audio support “Atmos DtsX etc”

Can’t ask for more really


----------



## Killroy

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Odroid N2 running coreelec is the best player at the moment
> 
> It will:
> Output HDR metadata
> Output native file resolution “no upscaling”
> Full audio support “Atmos DtsX etc”
> 
> *Can’t ask for more really*


I can.... none of the CoreELEC boxes can play multi-channel FLAC MKVs without switching audio output method, which can't be automated. There are no media players that are absolutely perfect. The Shield comes close but it's still only 99% perfect.


----------



## Bill DePalma

OK, this is clearly beyond my pay grade. Although I do have a Nvidia Shield that runs Plex, but perhaps you are talking about something more exotic. At this point I am not sure why I even was looking beyond Plex, kind of just works. The folks at Zappiti have not been keen to get back to me about questions I have for them, or info on when the unit I ordered will ship. Bad choice


----------



## bjorg

It's hard to beat the Oppo 20x as best playback device once modded. The NVidia Shield is a fun device, which can be tweaked nicely, but it's not a fire-and-forget experience. AppleTV, despite its insistence to upscale everything, is actually a decent Plex playback device.


----------



## Killroy

If you already have a Shield you should be good with either Plex or Kodi for 99.999% of any media playback. Between Zappiti and Zidoo players, the Zidoos have less quirks since they are using mostly a stock Kodi fork for their ZDMC and you can even install Kodi if you wish. I think with Zappiti you are stuck with their custom fork which can be a bear to manage.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Killroy said:


> If you already have a Shield you should be good with either Plex or Kodi for 99.999% of any media playback. Between Zappiti and Zidoo players, the Zidoos have less quirks since they are using mostly a stock Kodi fork for their ZDMC and you can even install Kodi if you wish. I think with Zappiti you are stuck with their custom fork which can be a bear to manage.


thanks
I use both ATV and the shield right now, bounce back and forth. I have not used Kodi, I think I was unsure of the advantage with Kodi and Plex was easy to set up. But I kept hearing that the Zappiti was the superior player and from a hardware standpoint it looked like it was great. I was looking for an uptick in playback quality. Still confused, and am still wondering about problems with MKV files. Poor quality, poor playback?


----------



## Killroy

Bill DePalma said:


> thanks
> I use both ATV and the shield right now, bounce back and forth. I have not used Kodi, I think I was unsure of the advantage with Kodi and Plex was easy to set up. thanks


Kodi on the Shield is easy to set up for lossless bitstreaming (audio/video). The only tedious part is setting up all the network shares if you have a lot of them. If you use a simple share system then it should take you but a few minutes.


----------



## Killroy

Bill DePalma said:


> Still confused, and am still wondering about problems with MKV files. Poor quality, poor playback?


The main issues with Realtek 1695 players is combability with certain MKVs and their codecs for badly remuxed MKVs. If you use native codecs then the issues are few. There is also a few issues with default/forced flags for both audio and subs. Example, I do not believe either 1695 player is honoring the default flag for subs in MKV but they do honor it in m2ts and ts and also honor it on BDMV folder remuxes (my new method of remuxing since it is super fast). This is a Realtek limitation. But this changes with every single firmware so it may be fixed soon or never.

The PQ is superb if you keep your remuxes to just the native codecs and don't try to get to fancy by re-encoding the crap out of the video/audio/subs. Remuxes with DV are also fickle since this a whole new method and the players may not be ready for DV remuxes.

My remuxing method has changed substantially in the past 2-years to make it more efficient for most players but I keep coming back to just simple native codecs and the Shield for playback but I am getting a Zidoo Z1000 Pro to see if I can give the Shield a rest.


----------



## audioguy

Bill DePalma said:


> I have recently ordered a Zappiti Pro and after reading the many comments concerning issues with the Zappiti I am definitely second guessing my purchase. Primarily, all of my files are MKV, more than 1000 Blu-ray full resolution rips. They all play great in my Plex setup but after reading the comments I am doubting whether they will play so nicely on the Zappiti. Any input would be greatly appreciated. The unit has not shipped, so I would like to cancel my order if the Zappiti is going to be more trouble than I expected. all of these files are 1080 if that has any impact.
> thanks
> Bill


Nvidia Shield running Plex works perfectly. I've used it for many years. I have a client who has the Zappiti Pro + Zappiti NAS and his primary issues are with 4K movies and has little to no issues with BluRay movies. Is there any kind of return policy on the unit if you buy it?


----------



## SJHT

What thread is this? Lol.


----------



## Karl Maga

SJHT said:


> What thread is this? Lol.


I was going to wait until tomorrow before posing that question, but I was thinking it.


----------



## Technology3456

I am running two projectors, and each requires their own distinct 3D lut. I am wondering about three questions.

1. Can one Lumagen Radiance Pro do two distinct 3D luts to two projectors, or does that require each projector have their own Lumagen, i.e., two Lumagen's total?

2. It's not just important they each get their own 3D lut, and whatever other Lumagen settings I'd want to apply, but that they get it in complete sync with the other projector. I noticed some Lumagen's are 1U chassis, and some are 2U. I know that both they have the same features and can achieve the same end result. However, I wonder if the 2U design has longer cables, or a bigger internal architecture in some way or another, so I am concerned not about the end result, but how long it takes each sized Lumagen to get there. If the 1U is sending its signal through a smaller internal architecture, would its signal reach the display faster than the equivalent model Lumagen ith a 2U chassis?

In other words, if I have two displays hooked up to two Lumagen's, and I enable the exact same settings on both Lumagen's, is that enough to have the projector's timing synced, even if one Lumagen is a 1U and the other is a 2U, or do I need two Lumagen's that are the exact same size too? And is it okay to have two Lumagen 4xxx models, or do I need to match the exact same numbered models 100%?

3. Even if I match everything exactly, and enable all the same settings on each including doing a full "3D lut" enabled for each projector, will it still unsync the signal because the 3D lut that one projector unit requires to get accurate colors is a slightly different 3D lut than the other projector unit, since no two units are 100% the same?


----------



## Bill DePalma

SJHT said:


> What thread is this? Lol.


Mea Culpa, I knew I was being bad. Thanks for the info, I’ll zip it


----------



## audioguy

SJHT said:


> What thread is this? Lol.


Fair question. It is called a WOT for Wandering Off Topic. Sorry.


----------



## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> I am running two projectors, and each requires their own distinct 3D lut. I am wondering about three questions.
> 
> 1. Can one Lumagen Radiance Pro do two distinct 3D luts to two projectors, or does that require each projector have their own Lumagen, i.e., two Lumagen's total?
> 
> 2. It's not just important they each get their own 3D lut, and whatever other Lumagen settings I'd want to apply, but that they get it in complete sync with the other projector. I noticed some Lumagen's are 1U chassis, and some are 2U. I know that both they have the same features and can achieve the same end result. However, I wonder if the 2U design has longer cables, or a bigger internal architecture in some way or another, so I am concerned not about the end result, but how long it takes each sized Lumagen to get there. If the 1U is sending its signal through a smaller internal architecture, would its signal reach the display faster than the equivalent model Lumagen ith a 2U chassis?
> 
> In other words, if I have two displays hooked up to two Lumagen's, and I enable the exact same settings on both Lumagen's, is that enough to have the projector's timing synced, even if one Lumagen is a 1U and the other is a 2U, or do I need two Lumagen's that are the exact same size too? And is it okay to have two Lumagen 4xxx models, or do I need to match the exact same numbered models 100%?
> 
> 3. Even if I match everything exactly, and enable all the same settings on each including doing a full "3D lut" enabled for each projector, will it still unsync the signal because the 3D lut that one projector unit requires to get accurate colors is a slightly different 3D lut than the other projector unit, since no two units are 100% the same?


1. Yes, you can have multiple LUTs stored on a Lumagen. You can have up to four completely different memories to chose from, each with completely different LUTs for SDR, HDR and 3D.

2. What the Lumagen cannot do is output two different LUTs simultaneously. So if you have two projectors connected to the Lumagen at the same time, the outputs of each are not separate in what they are showing. You can switch from say Memory A when watching projector 1 and Memory B for Projector 2, but you can't show the different configurations simultaneously.

Also, the 1U vs 2U are no different in regards to the things you are talking about. The 2U units are no longer produced and use older parts that are no longer used (in some regards). 

3. Again, you can't have two LUTs being output simultaneously from one Lumagen.


----------



## sjschaff

Bill DePalma said:


> Mea Culpa, I knew I was being bad. Thanks for the info, I’ll zip it


Problems with Shield ensued when I made the mistake of upgrading Kodi to 19. Caused audio dropouts -- very annoying. Cannot go back. Plex doesn't support ISO, BDMV, Video_TS and a few other things. I've tons of those and didn't think it worth converting. I've now a Zappiti Pro ACE and it's far better video and audio quality and ease of use once everything is imported into the library. I've had not real issues with using it in conjunction with the Lumagen 5348 and settings I brought over from my previous Pro. From what I hear, if you're willing to wait, Zappiti will offer up new models with new chips to fully support metadata.


----------



## Erod

I had my 4242 professionally calibrated with my projector.

Is there a way to see what my 3D LUT settings are now?


----------



## jazzrock

I’ll only make one comment on the subject of good digital players….since it may be of help to those who are looking……I’ve been using a system from Baetis Audio running JRiver for 5-6 years and I’ve never run into something it couldn’t play and extremely well. I use it exclusively in my Theater for all streaming hi res audio, 4k video all located on my NAS and ALSO good ole cable tv via my home network. sony 5000, Lumagen, etc. 

And they have THE BEST customer service experience I’ve ever had. Hands down. And I’m kinda particular. Actually, VERY. )



Baetis Audio - The Very Best in Media Computers and High-end Audio



Be happy to discuss in a new thread if interested


----------



## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> 1. Yes, you can have multiple LUTs stored on a Lumagen. You can have up to four completely different memories to chose from, each with completely different LUTs for SDR, HDR and 3D.
> 
> 2. What the Lumagen cannot do is output two different LUTs simultaneously. So if you have two projectors connected to the Lumagen at the same time, the outputs of each are not separate in what they are showing. You can switch from say Memory A when watching projector 1 and Memory B for Projector 2, but you can't show the different configurations simultaneously.
> 
> Also, the 1U vs 2U are no different in regards to the things you are talking about. The 2U units are no longer produced and use older parts that are no longer used (in some regards).
> 
> 3. Again, you can't have two LUTs being output simultaneously from one Lumagen.


Thanks! Yeah I was wondering about two separate LUTS running at the same time to two separate displays.

If the 2U units use older parts, would different parts create different processing times for the signal? Maybe the new parts are 0.1 milliseconds faster? Just want to confirm it is 100% the same.


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> I had my 4242 professionally calibrated with my projector.
> 
> Is there a way to see what my 3D LUT settings are now?


There is no such thing as 3D LUT settings. A 3D LUT is a file that is applied to the signal, not settings you see in a menu.


----------



## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> Thanks! Yeah I was wondering about two separate LUTS running at the same time to two separate displays.
> 
> If the 2U units use older parts, would different parts create different processing times for the signal? Maybe the new parts are 0.1 milliseconds faster? Just want to confirm it is 100% the same.


This would be a better question for Jim, but I don't think you would have any timing differences. You can ask them at [email protected]


----------



## bobof

Erod said:


> I had my 4242 professionally calibrated with my projector.
> 
> Is there a way to see what my 3D LUT settings are now?


While you can look at, and edit, the actual 3DLUT values through the Lumagen menu system, it's largely not useful as it is a table of up to 4913 values (a cube dimension 5, 9 or 17 along each R,G,B axis) All you will in the UI see is a line with R,G,B input values and their mapping to R,G,B output values. If I recall, you can change the input values to represent a particular 3DLUT control point, and it will show the output values. While it is possible to make manual edits, the user guide recommends against this:



> Color Gamut
> Allows primary and secondary color point calibration, or calibration of 4913-points throughout the RGB color cube, using a 3D color lookup table (3D LUT) Color Management System (CMS). You must enable Service Mode to make changes using this menu.
> 
> Note:
> A color probe, appropriate calibration software, and proper training is needed for correct adjustment. Making manual changes is not recommended.
> 
> The command is:
> 
> MENU → Output → CMS’s → [CMS] → Color Gamut


If you want to have actually useful information about the 3DLUT, you really need to get this at calibration time. The better 3DLUT software have cube visualisers which will show you the 3DLUT in 3D space, where you can get a feel of the regions and nature of adjustment, and the nature of the 3DLUT correction, as well as post-calibration the relationship between the standards and your calibration. It is useful because it is possible through software limitations, display limitations and / or misadventure to create a 3DLUT which has regions that are not smooth or have noise masquerading as valid corrections. 

Colourspace and its predecessor Lightspace can both do this. At the moment though you have to do this before you upload the 3DLUT to the Radiance; once it is uploaded there isn't any easy way to get the 3DLUT back out of the unit.


----------



## oldvinyl

Technology3456 said:


> Thanks! Yeah I was wondering about two separate LUTS running at the same time to two separate displays.
> 
> If the 2U units use older parts, would different parts create different processing times for the signal? Maybe the new parts are 0.1 milliseconds faster? Just want to confirm it is 100% the same.


The internal speed of the parts would not really matter. As long as the design keeps up with the 24/30/60 frame/sec frame rate, then an increase in speed just gives more margin on the timing. The pipeline is set to keep up with the HDMI input and meet its desired/fixed output rate. 

If 2 boxes are being used side by side and fed the same input, there could be a slight difference between them, but in general they would maintain that same difference since they would need to meet the output frame rate.


----------



## mindedc

audioguy said:


> What kinds of things can this driver do? My integrator uses some kind of C4/Lumagen If I driver but only provides things like input switching, etc. Things like selecting NLS or different aspect ratios I have to do on the Lumagen remote.


You can either automate NLS or other aspect ratios or map those to remote buttons on a sr260/sr250 or as an experience button that could be used on a touchpad, your phone, or on a Neeo remote.


----------



## bjorg

I wish I could automate zoom and shrink as well. For now, I've assigned shrink to different memories, but zoom has to be done manually every time. What I would love to do is associate different ARs with shrink/zoom so that the RadiancePro can always adjust the picture to my preferred settings. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be possible out-of-the-box for 16:9 screens.


----------



## Technology3456

oldvinyl said:


> The internal speed of the parts would not really matter. As long as the design keeps up with the 24/30/60 frame/sec frame rate, then an increase in speed just gives more margin on the timing. The pipeline is set to keep up with the HDMI input and meet its desired/fixed output rate.
> 
> *If 2 boxes are being used side by side and fed the same input, there could be a slight difference between them, but in general they would maintain that same difference since they would need to meet the output frame rate.*


That's what I would be doing. Its for double stacked projector 3D, so each projector needs to be synced with the other one. You need two projectors that are the same model, obviously, but the signal chain needs to be 100% identical also. One processor for one 3D lut to one projector, one processor for one 3D lut to the other, and both processors need to be the same and have the exact same transit times. I understand once they start playing the movie, that both output it at 24fps just fine, but I am worried if one will be 0.01ms slower to start the first frame of the movie, basically.


----------



## mindedc

bjorg said:


> I wish I could automate zoom and shrink as well. For now, I've assigned shrink to different memories, but zoom has to be done manually every time. What I would love to do is associate different ARs with shrink/zoom so that the RadiancePro can always adjust the picture to my preferred settings. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be possible out-of-the-box for 16:9 screens.


Zoom is one of the few things the C4 driver doesn't support, adding it would be trivial and I would be glad to do that. I need to update some other things in the driver I may just go ahead and add that. 

You could then have an automation that says "if output aspect ratio = 1.79 then set zoom to X". If you don't already have C4 it may be a bit pricy to add to just support the driver.... It does do a really nice job of automating a HT....


----------



## bobof

Technology3456 said:


> That's what I would be doing. Its for double stacked projector 3D, so each projector needs to be synced with the other one. You need two projectors that are the same model, obviously, but the signal chain needs to be 100% identical also. One processor for one 3D lut to one projector, one processor for one 3D lut to the other, and both processors need to be the same and have the exact same transit times. I understand once they start playing the movie, that both output it at 24fps just fine, but I am worried if one will be 0.01ms slower to start the first frame of the movie, basically.


You'd certainly have to enable genlock mode, as without it the outputs on the different Radiance boxes will be asynchronous and their frame timing will be driven by the internal oscillator in each Radiance. These will drift relative to the source, and each Radiance will end up compensating for this differently.

Genlock should provide deterministic frame timing linked to the source, but I don't fully know the mechanism for locking, and whether, for instance, the Vsyncs are tightly locked together by a fixed number. Whether with two units are tight to 0.1 or 0.01ms you mentioned I don't know. But I don't know where you get either of those numbers as being important. in active shutter 3D the eyes are offset by a huge amount - over 21ms due to the blank timing. Outside of 3D, some studies I've seen say observation of a difference is down to 2ms in exceptional individuals, and you seem to be saying you want between 20x and 200x this.

Anyway, maybe @jrp can answer how tightly synced you can expect two different Radiances to be with the same source, firmware and settings driving them in Genlock mode.


----------



## Technology3456

bobof said:


> You'd certainly have to enable genlock mode, as without it the outputs on the different Radiance boxes will be asynchronous and their frame timing will be driven by the internal oscillator in each Radiance. These will drift relative to the source, and each Radiance will end up compensating for this differently.
> 
> Genlock should provide deterministic frame timing linked to the source, but I don't fully know the mechanism for locking, and whether, for instance, the Vsyncs are tightly locked together by a fixed number. Whether with two units are tight to 0.1 or 0.01ms you mentioned I don't know. But I don't know where you get either of those numbers as being important. in active shutter 3D the eyes are offset by a huge amount - over 21ms due to the blank timing. Outside of 3D, some studies I've seen say observation of a difference is down to 2ms in exceptional individuals, and you seem to be saying you want between 20x and 200x this.
> 
> Anyway, maybe @jrp can answer how tightly synced you can expect two different Radiances to be with the same source, firmware and settings driving them in Genlock mode.


I have no idea what ms number would be high enough to cause a problem either, I just threw out random small numbers to be able to ask the question whether it would be the same or not. But just FYI it is for passive 3D, not active. In active each eye is getting a frame flashed alternatively, but even then, the alternating flashes are still synced to be at consistent intervals. If they started flashing at slightly different intervals I'm sure that could cause a big problem for active too, but definitely, below at a certain number, it might not be noticeable, and as I said I don't know what that number is, I just used some hypothetical numbers to ask the question with.

However, eyes seem very sensitive to motion blur, flicker, all that stuff in general, so since I'm building the system from the ground up, I'm aiming for 100% in sync, or as close to 100% as possible. I'll wait to hear from @jrp thank you!


----------



## bjorg

mindedc said:


> Zoom is one of the few things the C4 driver doesn't support, adding it would be trivial and I would be glad to do that. I need to update some other things in the driver I may just go ahead and add that.
> 
> You could then have an automation that says "if output aspect ratio = 1.79 then set zoom to X". If you don't already have C4 it may be a bit pricy to add to just support the driver.... It does do a really nice job of automating a HT....


Is it possible to do things like: "if output aspect ratio = 1.79 AND v-frequency != 50 AND input % 2 = 0"? I use 50Hz on devices so the home screens is always shrunk to correct size w/o losing any information at the top or bottom. The cropping is due to it being a fixed resolution display with a 2.0 AR that is not quite 4K. So I scale down the image to fit it into the width or height of the display. More details are in this post.


----------



## mindedc

bjorg said:


> Is it possible to do things like: "if output aspect ratio = 1.79 AND v-frequency != 50 AND input % 2 = 0"? I use 50Hz on devices so the home screens is always shrunk to correct size w/o losing any information at the top or bottom. The cropping is due to it being a fixed resolution display with a 2.0 AR that is not quite 4K. So I scale down the image to fit it into the width or height of the display. More details are in this post.


Yes, like this:










This is an interesting experiment because I noticed I didn't have 50hz as an input rate in the conditionals, I'll fix that  The zoom is just sketched in at this point, but you get the idea.


----------



## BlackJoker

Hi,

which Dithering options you guys can recommend?

I checked multiple banding test patterns and find RGB 8 bit out seems to be the Sweetspot for my setup.

If you change the setting from Auto to 6-8 bit you can clearly see that the picture gets a little darker and the desired "noise" in the low end.

But I can't see any difference between the fixed and dynamic setting for the position.


----------



## MDesigns

bjorg said:


> Is it possible to do things like: "if output aspect ratio = 1.79 AND v-frequency != 50 AND input % 2 = 0"? I use 50Hz on devices so the home screens is always shrunk to correct size w/o losing any information at the top or bottom. The cropping is due to it being a fixed resolution display with a 2.0 AR that is not quite 4K. So I scale down the image to fit it into the width or height of the display. More details are in this post.


Dont you think that it would be nicer to refine the Lumagen auto aspect to be more user friendly or multi purpose, than to use external control system to listen what Lumagen reports and then make adjustments to Lumagen according to those? Sounds really backwards to me


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> If the 2U units use older parts, would different parts create different processing times for the signal? Maybe the new parts are 0.1 milliseconds faster? Just want to confirm it is 100% the same.


All Radiance Pro models, of any age, running the same software revision and same configuration, will work identically.

NOTE: If Genlock is off, the video delay on any particular unit will vary by up to one source frame time, since the input pixel clock and output pixel clock are free running versus the other, and timing will vary.


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> Dont you think that it would be nicer to refine the Lumagen auto aspect to be more user friendly or multi purpose, than to use external control system to listen what Lumagen reports and then make adjustments to Lumagen according to those? Sounds really backwards to me


I don't think you understand how the Auto Aspect works.

The Pro determines the source aspect and makes internal changes as specified by the configuration settings. No need for any external interface for this. 

The Pro also can report the detected aspect ratio to the control system in case there are external things, outside the purview of the Radiance Pro, that should happen on an aspect change. For example the light level for HDR in the projector, or screen masking.


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> That's what I would be doing. Its for double stacked projector 3D, so each projector needs to be synced with the other one. You need two projectors that are the same model, obviously, but the signal chain needs to be 100% identical also. One processor for one 3D lut to one projector, one processor for one 3D lut to the other, and both processors need to be the same and have the exact same transit times. I understand once they start playing the movie, that both output it at 24fps just fine, but I am worried if one will be 0.01ms slower to start the first frame of the movie, basically.


For this you need to use two of the same family (two Radiance Pro, or two RadianceXS/XE/20XX/21XX).

You set one to output the left-eye and one to output the right-eye.

For the dual projector passive-3D, you also should have genlock set to On, so the delay though each Radiance Pro remains fixed.


----------



## bowlingbeeg

bjorg said:


> I wish I could automate zoom and shrink as well. For now, I've assigned shrink to different memories, but zoom has to be done manually every time. What I would love to do is associate different ARs with shrink/zoom so that the RadiancePro can always adjust the picture to my preferred settings. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be possible out-of-the-box for 16:9 screens.


Someone can correct me if this is wrong but I found that you can "crop" the image in the plus direction to "zoom" in. As long as you keep the ratio correct it appears to work. You can then associate that cropping with different ARs.


----------



## mindedc

MDesigns said:


> Dont you think that it would be nicer to refine the Lumagen auto aspect to be more user friendly or multi purpose, than to use external control system to listen what Lumagen reports and then make adjustments to Lumagen according to those? Sounds really backwards to me





jrp said:


> I don't think you understand how the Auto Aspect works.
> 
> The Pro determines the source aspect and makes internal changes as specified by the configuration settings. No need for any external interface for this.
> 
> The Pro also can report the detected aspect ratio to the control system in case there are external things, outside the purview of the Radiance Pro, that should happen on an aspect change. For example the light level for HDR in the projector, or screen masking.


Lumagen has been great about extending the product and if they want to add these features that's great. I've never owned a product that has changed as drastically (for the better) as the Lumagen. It feels like a completely new product from a performance standpoint from when I bought it. 

The outside control system is potentially more flexible than what you can do inside any product and can do very generic things especially when you're talking about automating things like masking, lamp level, PJ settings etc. If this was something that 99% of customers needed I suspect they would jump on it. This is a corner case for one customer which does have the external control system and the more I dig into it this looks like something unusual if not one off at this time. There are potentially many other customers that may want something like this in the future and if the market demands it I have no doubt Lumagen would build in the feature. In the interim the outside control system may be a good alternative for this customer. I would no way imply you have to have one to use the Lumagen. I will say (and I'm biased) that having a control system maximizes what you can do not only with your Lumagen but with your whole theater. 

Personally I do things like automate my lighting with the control system as well as automate some Lumagen settings for my anamorphic lens. For example, when you start a movie on my Kodi player or play a video in Netflix on my Nvidia shield my lights automatically dim. If you pause any of those sources my lights come up. It gives the HT such an elegant feel... I also tie in the volume level of my preamp to the control system so that I can get a volume and mute display when the Lumagen is doing the video switching. This has the pleasant side effect of the preamp graphics not throwing off the aspect ratio detection which is jarring in the middle of a movie. I don't expect the Lumagen to ever do any of this. 

Bjorg has a super cool setup and I would just like to help him make it the best he can. If Lumagen comes in behind me and adds a knob to do this, that's awesome but I would absolutely not look at this as some kind of flaw in the product. I would look at it as an incredible system that it exposes enough data/controls to do something like this instead of just having the more "Apple" type attitude of its a closed system and we know what's good for you better than you do.


----------



## bjorg

bowlingbeeg said:


> Someone can correct me if this is wrong but I found that you can "crop" the image in the plus direction to "zoom" in. As long as you keep the ratio correct it appears to work. You can then associate that cropping with different ARs.


I'd like learn more about this! On my regular 16:9 TV, I'd love to zoom in automatically by 5% when the AR is 2.20 or higher. TV is in the bedroom and that would make the image a bit bigger (at the expense of losing some information on the sides).

For the Crystal LED, I have the opposed issue where 1.78 to 2.00 should be shrunk by 4.17% (equally on all 4 sides), while 2.10 and above should not shrink.

Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to configure RadiancePro for this, but that's okay, because it provides feedback that can be leveraged to automate, which is huge and much more flexible!


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> I'd like learn more about this! On my regular 16:9 TV, I'd love to zoom in automatically by 5% when the AR is 2.20 or higher. TV is in the bedroom and that would make the image a bit bigger (at the expense of losing some information on the sides).
> 
> For the Crystal LED, I have the opposed issue where 1.78 to 2.00 should be shrunk by 4.17% (equally on all 4 sides), while 2.10 and above should not shrink.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to configure RadiancePro for this, but that's okay, because it provides feedback that can be leveraged to automate, which is huge and much more flexible!


I know a guy


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> I know a guy


Kris: “I know a guy” should be on your website!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> I know a guy


The hermit?


----------



## BlackJoker

BlackJoker said:


> Hi,
> 
> which Dithering options you guys can recommend?
> 
> I checked multiple banding test patterns and find RGB 8 bit out seems to be the Sweetspot for my setup.
> 
> If you change the setting from Auto to 6-8 bit you can clearly see that the picture gets a little darker and the desired "noise" in the low end.
> 
> But I can't see any difference between the fixed and dynamic setting for the position.


@jrp ; any suggestions for the output settings?


----------



## bowlingbeeg

bjorg said:


> I'd like learn more about this! On my regular 16:9 TV, I'd love to zoom in automatically by 5% when the AR is 2.20 or higher. TV is in the bedroom and that would make the image a bit bigger (at the expense of losing some information on the sides).
> 
> For the Crystal LED, I have the opposed issue where 1.78 to 2.00 should be shrunk by 4.17% (equally on all 4 sides), while 2.10 and above should not shrink.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to configure RadiancePro for this, but that's okay, because it provides feedback that can be leveraged to automate, which is huge and much more flexible!


Start playing something at a non 16:9 AR. When the Radiance Pro has determined the AR then select Input->In Configs->4k->4k-0->Sizing->Crop TopLeft then adjust the height of the image on the screen. Get it to the height you want. From there calculate the left amount by taking the number you have for the top value and multiply it bythe AR, 1.78. Do the same thing for the Crop BotRight menu item as well. Just make sure to keep them the same or your picture will be distorted.

The one annoying thing is that you have to do that for every different resolution and AR. And you have to find content at those resolutions/ARs in order to set it.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> I don't think you understand how the Auto Aspect works.
> 
> The Pro determines the source aspect and makes internal changes as specified by the configuration settings. No need for any external interface for this.
> 
> The Pro also can report the detected aspect ratio to the control system in case there are external things, outside the purview of the Radiance Pro, that should happen on an aspect change. For example the light level for HDR in the projector, or screen masking.


I don't think you read the message I quoted? It was them planning the usage of external interface to adjust the image based on things that lumagen already knows(aspect & framerate), not me. I was only trying to say that Lumagen probably can do that on its own when setup correctly, or if not, it should be able to be refined to do it if its something useful for others too!


----------



## bjorg

bowlingbeeg said:


> Start playing something at a non 16:9 AR. When the Radiance Pro has determined the AR then select Input->In Configs->4k->4k-0->Sizing->Crop TopLeft then adjust the height of the image on the screen. Get it to the height you want. From there calculate the left amount by taking the number you have for the top value and multiply it bythe AR, 1.78. Do the same thing for the Crop BotRight menu item as well. Just make sure to keep them the same or your picture will be distorted.
> 
> The one annoying thing is that you have to do that for every different resolution and AR. And you have to find content at those resolutions/ARs in order to set it.


Aha! I have never played with the crop command before. I shall explore it. Thank you for the hint!


----------



## AKJohnny

Probably a stupid question, but I’ve been using my 4242 on an old 1080p tv since I got it. I finally bought a new LG CX, so now I have 4K. I’ve reset the Radiance back to factory, have latest firmware, but I can’t seem to get any HDR or DV to pass thru to the TV. Other than possible crap hdmi cables, is there something else I need to do to get HDR out of the Lumagen? The Lumagen has 18Ghz ins and outs. All works as expected when directly connected to the tv and I do have brand new certified cables on the way. Thanks.


----------



## Kris Deering

AKJohnny said:


> Probably a stupid question, but I’ve been using my 4242 on an old 1080p tv since I got it. I finally bought a new LG CX, so now I have 4K. I’ve reset the Radiance back to factory, have latest firmware, but I can’t seem to get any HDR or DV to pass thru to the TV. Other than possible crap hdmi cables, is there something else I need to do to get HDR out of the Lumagen? The Lumagen has 18Ghz ins and outs. All works as expected when directly connected to the tv and I do have brand new certified cables on the way. Thanks.


There are some adjustments you need to make for a pure passthrough of HDR but Dolby Vision will not pass through at all. If you want to use Dolby Vision with the flat panel, you'll need to bypass the Lumagen. This is one of the reasons I typically recommend not using a Lumagen with a display like this.


----------



## AKJohnny

Kris Deering said:


> There are some adjustments you need to make for a pure passthrough of HDR but Dolby Vision will not pass through at all. If you want to use Dolby Vision with the flat panel, you'll need to bypass the Lumagen. This is one of the reasons I typically recommend not using a Lumagen with a display like this.


Thanks Kris. I’ll probably just move the Lumagen back to the other TVs or sell it. Either way, can you tell me what the adjustments are you mention? Thank you!


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> All Radiance Pro models, of any age, running the same software revision and same configuration, will work identically.
> 
> NOTE: If Genlock is off, the video delay on any particular unit will vary by up to one source frame time, since the input pixel clock and output pixel clock are free running versus the other, and timing will vary.


Jim, can you advise on whether to enable Genlock or not?


----------



## Surge2018

I’m noticing an odd bug with the 5348 - occasionally the picture will compress in size. It’s while I am using the JVC RS3000 remote - almost like the 5348 recognizes a command meant for the JVC.
However, the Menu on the Lumagen does not say settings have changed. Powering off and on the 5348 solves it.

EDIT: It’s the aspect switching to 4:3 from 16:9. It seems like the 5348 is reading a remote signal meant for the JVC, and interpreting it as an aspect change to 4:3!


----------



## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> Jim, can you advise on whether to enable Genlock or not?


If you are not sensitive to repeated or dropped frames, I recommend leaving Genlock off.

Some people notice the dropped or repeated frames at 24 Hertz, but not 50/60. If you are one, then you can choose Genlock on for 24 Hertz material but off for 50/60 Hertz.

If you turn Genlock on, I recommend using the "normal" mode. The fast mode has more jitter and seems only some TVs like the signal with this extra jitter, and projectors seem to not deal with the additional jitter.

Genlock "normal" increases switching time as the HDMI output must be restarted on an input switch, or input change. Using Genlock 24 Hertz only has this output restart but the output restart is there going to/from 50/60 to 24 in any case and so does not add to the (already longer) switching time.


----------



## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> I’m noticing an odd bug with the 5348 - occasionally the picture will compress in size. It’s while I am using the JVC RS3000 remote - almost like the 5348 recognizes a command meant for the JVC.
> However, the Menu on the Lumagen does not say settings have changed. Powering off and on the 5348 solves it.


Could be a remote code conflict if it only happens while sending IR commands to the JVC. If you can figure out which button on the JVC causes the issue. Then I can look at the IR code for my RS4500 remote on an oscilloscope (assuming the RS4500 remote has that button) and see why it might conflict.

It would be a weird one since all Radiance units respond to the same IR codes and there are plenty of RS2000/RS3000 projectors paired with the Radiance Pro units. So, I would have expected an IR conflict to have been reported before this. Of course you might be doing something others have not to "hit" the conflicting IR code.


----------



## jrp

Random comments of the day: Remote

Still do not have the new remotes. So, I am still looking for more "old for new" remote trade-ins. If anyone is interested please email lumagen.com support email.

I placed a bet on a second horse for the race. So, I now have two remotes types coming. Not sure if it is the second horse is spurring on the first, but I have an actual date for the remotes to be completed in China.

The Chinese remotes "should be" done on May 22. Call these the "non-PiP" remotes. Given it is likely two to three weeks through China customs (at least my last shipment from China had an over two week China customs delay), we hope to have the new remote about June 11. Fingers crossed there are not more delays.

The "second horse" remote is something we were going to do in any case given we ran out of remotes with PiP/PoP buttons. This PiP remote is a "low volume" remote that has a short lead time, but we have to assemble at Lumagen. We are supposed to have the PiP remotes in the first week of June.

The Non-PiP remote will be used for all non-PiP capable units, but the "PiP remote" version will be the standard remote for the 444X series going forward. Yes, I know, we have not implemented PiP yet, but we do still plan to. I am sure this will illicit a comment from the peanut gallery.

Customers for the 444X can choose the "non-PiP" remote, but then no PiP control.

Here are pictures of the two remote types. The PiP remote is my mock-up since I do not have the final drawing yet.



















The PiP remote has the PiP, PiP Select, PiP Swap, and PiP Mode buttons. The non-PiP remote does not have these.

The non-PiP remote adds some buttons not on the PiP remote: A Save button (press Save and OK to Save), a Test Pattern button (brings up a test pattern), a Zone button (rather useless, but it's there), and a "HDR Setup" button (brings up "left-arrow HDR parameter menu" even if OSD is on the screen).

==== 

For everyone waiting for a new (non-PiP) remote, I will post when we have them. Then please give us a couple weeks to start getting these shipped as we have a lot of people we owe the new remote to.


----------



## Technology3456

I haven't read it all but just in case Lumagen development team is interested in implementing frame interpolation, frame blending, motion-deblurring, etc, algorithms in the future, this article might have some ideas.



http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ILIM/publications/PDFs/KN-PROCAMS09.pdf



They tested different ways to blend and deblur photos of movement taken off a DLP projector. Just passing it along.


----------



## bobof

Technology3456 said:


> I haven't read it all but just in case Lumagen development team is interested in implementing frame interpolation, frame blending, motion-deblurring, etc, algorithms in the future, this article might have some ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ILIM/publications/PDFs/KN-PROCAMS09.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> They tested different ways to blend and deblur photos of movement taken off a DLP projector. Just passing it along.


I think anything that is so display tech dependent really lives in the display, but even then I'm not sure the article is what you think it is. They're investigating using a DLP projector as a light source for photography illumination purposes. If you look at the image in d) on page 1 the camera is pointing at the scene, as it the projector. It's about using projectors as a "structured light generator".


----------



## Technology3456

bobof said:


> I think anything that is so display tech dependent really lives in the display, but even then I'm not sure the article is what you think it is. They're investigating using a DLP projector as a light source for photography illumination purposes. If you look at the image in d) on page 1 the camera is pointing at the scene, as it the projector. It's about using projectors as a "structured light generator".


The article, which I only read part of, is definitely not about projection or video display really. But they seem to have tested different ways of taking still photos and blending them specifically to reduce blur. I'm not a programmer so I can only infer so much... I am definitely not saying, "you guys need to use this!" But maybe there is some application for frame interpolation or frame blending from some of the methods they used. Maybe something related to this.



> 4. Creating the illusion of motion Here we present three ways of processing a set of DLP photographs to produce a video that illustrates a scene’s mo-tion. We do not claim to deblur the scene or recover the motion in a quantifiable fashion. Instead, we believe these motion illustrations contain more information than the set of photographs by themselves and provide an easy way to visualize the event that occurred. The trade-off is that each of these techniques produces good results in certain broad classes of scenes, and may fail for others. Blending: In Figure7(a) we show the first three frames of a motion illustration video for the ballet dancer. *The frames in this video were created by differentially al-pha blending the strobed and non-strobed components of DLP photographs taken at1s exposure. The non-strobed component were blended slowly, at10%per frame. Incontrast, the strobed component was blended quickly, at 50%per frame. Since the strobed component naturally contains the fast moving parts of the scene, this gives the impression of motion. Color demultiplexing: In Figure7(b) we show pictures of a tabla (hand drum) musician playing under DLP illumi-nation. Due to the color-wheel effect, the different object copies are colored in a repeated series of red, green and blue. Each image can be demultiplexed into three grayscale images, tripling the frame-rate. Cycling the RGB copiesgives the impression of motion only when the speed of the object is close to the frequency of the colorwheel (120Hz), resulting in fewer object copies and unlike the ballet pho-tographs. This method works best when the objects in the scene are themselves close to grayscale: objects with sig-nificant red, green or blue components will imaged darkly or not at all in the complement illumination. Segmentation: In Figure7(c) we create a video from an image from Figure 3 by thresholding the image intensi-ties. Since the balloon parts that move first are replaced by the black background, these are least bright. Therefore the balloon shrinks from the outer edge inwards. This segmen-tation approach produces a believable result for a convex object, such as a balloon, since the image center is brighter than the outer edge.*


It sounds like they experimented with different tricks how to improve the appearance of clear motion, so if someone were programming a frame blending algorithm that combines a lot of different little tricks together to get the best overall result possible, maybe some of these tricks used with DLP and real photos could inspire different algorithms for digital frame blending for all displays not just DLP, using digital frames instead of real photos.

Or maybe not. It's just something I came across trying to learn about display motion, and it didn't really answer any of my questions, but I thought while reading it, maybe some of this could inspire some good frameblending ideas. But I am not qualified to know if it actually can. If there is nothing applicable at all in it, I take no offense if Lumagen or any other programmer ignores it!  Just posting it "in case." I am not looking to say anything else about it or push it or anything, just thought I should share it with the appropriate people in case it could prove helpful to future technology development, and I didn't know where else to do that but the Lumagen thread and madvr thread. But, I didnt want to get in trouble for posting the same thing in two threads, so I PMed it to the madvr creator and posted it publicly here, since I remembered his username but not the Lumagen creator's username, otherwise I might have done it the opposite order. But either way I shared it with both the madvr and Lumagen teams to be fair, lol. But won't be offended at all if neither read it or use it as inspiration for anything at all. I'm just passing it along.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> Random comments of the day: Remote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3133268


@Jim: Still no backlight for the new remote?


----------



## *Harry*

jrp said:


> Could be a remote code conflict if it only happens while sending IR commands to the JVC. If you can figure out which button on the JVC causes the issue. Then I can look at the IR code for my RS4500 remote on an oscilloscope (assuming the RS4500 remote has that button) and see why it might conflict.
> 
> It would be a weird one since all Radiance units respond to the same IR codes and there are plenty of RS2000/RS3000 projectors paired with the Radiance Pro units. So, I would have expected an IR conflict to have been reported before this. Of course you might be doing something others have not to "hit" the conflicting IR code.


It's not the first time a JVC user reports about this issue. Some months ago I've posted about that too. In my case, when using the JVC remote (I have the X75 projector) very sporadically the pro's info page pops up or the aspect ratio changes. Of course it's depending on the button you press on the JVC remote. My most used buttons are MPC, Menu, navigation arrows and Enter.


----------



## 5mark

*Harry* said:


> It's not the first time a JVC user reports about this issue. Some months ago I've posted about that too. In my case, when using the JVC remote (I have the X75 projector) very sporadically the pro's info page pops up or the aspect ratio changes. Of course it's depending on the button you press on the JVC remote. My most used buttons are MPC, Menu, navigation arrows and Enter.


I have the exact same situation using an NX9. Every once in awhile I get the info page or an aspect ratio change.


----------



## Kris Deering

I've had the random Lumagen info page come up as well when using keys on my NX9 remote. I will take note of this next time to figure out exactly what key did it and if I can always reproduce it.


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> Could be a remote code conflict if it only happens while sending IR commands to the JVC. If you can figure out which button on the JVC causes the issue. Then I can look at the IR code for my RS4500 remote on an oscilloscope (assuming the RS4500 remote has that button) and see why it might conflict.
> 
> It would be a weird one since all Radiance units respond to the same IR codes and there are plenty of RS2000/RS3000 projectors paired with the Radiance Pro units. So, I would have expected an IR conflict to have been reported before this. Of course you might be doing something others have not to "hit" the conflicting IR code.


Thanks, I’ll keep an eye on which button is pressed on the JVC NX9 remote to get Aspect to switch to 4:3. At least it’s an easy switch back.


----------



## Surge2018

Kris Deering said:


> I've had the random Lumagen info page come up as well when using keys on my NX9 remote. I will take note of this next time to figure out exactly what key did it and if I can always reproduce it.


Yes, I’ve had this too.


----------



## jrp

Everyone:

Thanks for the feedback on remote code conflict with JVC. There is no "organization" that controls IR code sequences. I know NEC (and I think Sony) have generated code sequences and given out specific "vendor ID" ranges to various entities to help prevent conflict, but the Lumagen codes are from 2002 and I believe before this occurred. At that time we were told the IR code sequences we were given by our then IR remote control vendor (who no longer exists) would not conflict.

We may be able to eliminate the conflict. I suspect the Lumagen IR code sequences are a "close enough" subset of some JVC IR codes to cause the Lumagen to accept them as a command. I will check the RS4500 remote IR code sequences (which I have never had this issue with) to see if I can see an issue on the oscilloscope. The Lumagen IR command processor should be able to be changed to reject the JVC IR code sequence header. If this looks feasible (as I expect), we will put it on our to do list.


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> @Jim: Still no backlight for the new remote?


No. If there was a backlight I would have mentioned it.

As I said in my last post on remotes, this is a short term, in stock, second horse in the race, just in case the Chinese remote is further delayed, and I decided it should have PiP controls. As I posted previously we are looking into doing a backlite remote, but it will be a long time coming. As I posted previously, we were told we were getting a backlit remote by the sales person for the Chinese firm up until after we ordered and put down a substantial sum as a deposit. Canceling the order at that point was not a viable option. As I have previously posted, getting a backlit remote is a full on custom deal. It has been over a year to get the Chinese remote we have coming. We are small and making progress on the remote was like pulling teeth. I do not expect this will change. It will likely take as long to get a backlit remote. Financially speaking we have to use up the rather large (for us) order of remotes that are coming before we start shipping any other remote. None of this is new information.


----------



## Surge2018

Is this an individual pixel grid reference pattern?


----------



## Mike_WI

FW update
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates 

*042821- Posted 051221 *
Added new rs232 status report option, "full v4" which appends the detected input aspect to the report (setting in the menu under _Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup: Report changes_. 
There's also a ZQI24 rs232 query now that corresponds to this new status report. 
The detected aspect can be useful for theaters with masking systems. 
Aspect information is now detected for reporting whether auto aspect is on or off. 
Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings and also now allows negative settings to achieve spatial noise reduction for noisy or over sharpened sources. 
Negative sharpness settings not recommended for quality sources as it will reduce image resolution/detail. 
Fix for an occasional issue requiring power to be unplugged to restart unit after standby. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
_Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## SJHT

Don’t yet see the RS232 update in their control documentation. SJ


----------



## fatherom

Mike_WI said:


> Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings


Does anyone know the motivation for this feature, and in what situations I would want to adjust these independently?


----------



## bobof

SJHT said:


> Don’t yet see the RS232 update in their control documentation. SJ


I've just modified my scripts to use the new detected aspect on the V4 reports which works great, it is nice to just be able to drive my top / bottom masking system without auto aspect triggering other changes that cause a slight frame judder as the aspect switched. 

It is literally as the release note says, there is an extra field on the end of the V3 format report which is the detected content aspect, and it is analysed and returned regardless of whether auto aspect is being used.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Does anyone know the motivation for this feature, and in what situations I would want to adjust these independently?


Not sure of all the possible uses for this new "report aspect when Auto Aspect is off" feature. This is specifically in response to a request to report the detected source aspect while Auto Aspect is off. This request was from a control system program, but I do not recall the details of why he requested it at the moment.

The case I can think of is a 16:9 screen with masking. The programmer does not want Auto Aspect on since the Pro does not need to make aspect changes because everything all aspect stay in the 16:9 raster. Then the new Full v4 is used to auto-report the actual aspect detected by the Pro to the control system, and the control system is used to control screen masking.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Not sure of all the possible uses for this new "report aspect when Auto Aspect is off" feature. This is specifically in response to a request to report the detected source aspect while Auto Aspect is off. This request was from a control system program, but I do not recall the details of why he requested it at the moment.
> 
> The case I can think of is a 16:9 screen with masking. The programmer does not want Auto Aspect on since the Pro does not need to make aspect changes because everything all aspect stay in the 16:9 raster. Then the new Full v4 is used to auto-report the actual aspect detected by the Pro to the control system, and the control system is used to control screen masking.


Sorry, Jim, my question of "the motivation for this feature, and in what situations I would want to adjust these independently" was in response to:

"Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings"


----------



## bjorg

Curious, what is the difference between "Source raster aspect" and "Input raster aspect" (the newly reported field). I'm just trying to understand the distinction between "source" and "input".


----------



## PeterLarsson

As I have mention before - i have not been 100% pleased with the sharpness tool. I have run a lot of test material now with sharpness on 2 and 1 and off with sensivity high. The sharpness introduce motion blur/stutter that is very visible for my eyes. The tool is really great and really sharpen both 1080p and 2160p material and works really good up and until movement in the picture that is more than really really small. I really like it - But since it introduce a percived stutter/blur my conclusion is that the picture overall is best when sharpness is off.

One of the reasons for me to back to Sony was Sonys motion handling that is visibly better than for example JVC - so i know i am a bit sensitive to this. If motion judder/stutter doesnt bother you - than most probably sharpness is very good for you.

it is not that strange either. If you sharpen something up and then start a movement of course the perception will cause judder/stutter


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Not sure of all the possible uses for this new "report aspect when Auto Aspect is off" feature. This is specifically in response to a request to report the detected source aspect while Auto Aspect is off. This request was from a control system program, but I do not recall the details of why he requested it at the moment.
> 
> The case I can think of is a 16:9 screen with masking. The programmer does not want Auto Aspect on since the Pro does not need to make aspect changes because everything all aspect stay in the 16:9 raster. Then the new Full v4 is used to auto-report the actual aspect detected by the Pro to the control system, and the control system is used to control screen masking.


Since I was one of likely several to ask for this, I will give a simple example. Most of my movies are from K. Through their control interface, my system knows most of the movie aspects. However, they decided likely because of legacy reasons, to report 2.2 movies as 1.85. When I get the 1.85 from my Strato, I know it may be incorrect. Prior to what they just implemented, my system would turn on auto aspect for 1.85. This would then trigger the Lumagen to report the correct aspect ratio (you had to do auto aspect to get this info). When it is truly 1.85, then my system just uses auto aspect and fills in my 16:9 Screen (no change). But, if the aspect is really 2.2, then my system will go back and reconfigure my screen for 2.2. This means lowering the image to the bottom of the screen and lowering top masking for 2.2, etc. With this new feature my system can skip several steps and changes. Not having to use auto aspect to trigger the Lumagen Pro to report the correct AR. Also will be useful for other sources like Apple TV content. Thanks for implementing this! Tenet was the movie that led to my request, but there are others with 2.2 and 2.0. Having this info is really nice. SJ


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Sorry, Jim, my question of "the motivation for this feature, and in what situations I would want to adjust these independently" was in response to:
> 
> "Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings"


Sorry, missed that.

Some content has edge sharpening that is different for horizontal and vertical. I have seen vertical edges that have more mosquito noise than horizontal edges in the same frame. So in this case you use a lower horizontal sharpness setting (which affects vertical edges), than for the vertical sharpness settings (which is for horizontal edges).

We added a “low-pass” control in the sharpening control. This is “spatial filtering” using a low-pass filter, and so is another check-mark off our to-do list. I would avoid negative terms in the sharpening for good content. Definitely do not go below -3 as it has some bad effects on content. I wanted to limit to -3, but Patrick felt give people extra rope so they can see what is too much, and we went with that. So now the sharpening filter range is 7 to -7.

I have not played with separate horizontal and vertical much, and I do not like the low-pass much (negative sharpening numbers). However, I have seen the -1 or -2 for horizontal filter can eliminate some compression “mosquito noise” around hard edges. It is a trade off. This does work as a spatial-filter for reducing mosquito and other noise, but in doing so reduces sharpness.


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## aguy

Question for the crestron owners. 

Has anyone got a more recent crestron module than the one on the lumagen website ? 

I’m just starting my integration. The website one is working fine but there are some new commands plus others in the Lumagen command list that aren’t in the module yet. 

I’m happy to modify the website module myself if need be but wanted to ask the greater community in case I was duplicating work that had already been done. 

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*050221- Posted 051321 *
Added new rs232 status report option, "full v4" which appends the detected input aspect to the report (setting in the menu under _Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup: Report changes_. 
There's also a ZQI24 rs232 query now that corresponds to this new status report. 
The detected aspect can be useful for theaters with masking systems. 
Aspect information is now detected for reporting whether auto aspect is on or off. 
Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings and also now allows negative settings to achieve spatial noise reduction for noisy or over sharpened sources. 
Negative sharpness settings not recommended for quality sources as it will reduce image resolution/detail. 
Fix for an occasional issue requiring power to be unplugged to restart unit after standby. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ . 
(this update replaced 042821 & 050121 which was up briefly and had a powerup/down issue on some systems)
_Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## BrolicBeast

All—I’ll be shooting a YouTube video comparing the 4-series Lumagen Radiance Processors to the 5-series processor. I will be focusing primarily on the audio differences but will be looking for video noise reduction as well as a result of the improved circuitry.

If there’s anything else you’d like to see in the video, let me know. I’ll be shooting this video over the weekend. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> Question for the crestron owners.
> 
> Has anyone got a more recent crestron module than the one on the lumagen website ?
> 
> I’m just starting my integration. The website one is working fine but there are some new commands plus others in the Lumagen command list that aren’t in the module yet.
> 
> I’m happy to modify the website module myself if need be but wanted to ask the greater community in case I was duplicating work that had already been done.
> 
> Thanks


If anyone in the Crestron programmers community wants to help us improve our professionally written Crestron module that would be great. I will certainly try to support any questions you have. You can email me at the lumagen.com support email.

The current module did not account for all the then source aspect ratios we support, and we have added the 1.90 source aspect since then.

Overall I hear that the Crestron Module is well written (I am not a Crestron programmer so I do not have first hand knowledge of this). Improving it would be all the better.


----------



## carpantata

Is there any case where calibrating SDR / HDR where 2020 <-> 601/709 = Auto convert ?

Is there any case when calibrating SDR / HDR where Intensity Mapping Enable = On ?


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> If anyone in the Crestron programmers community wants to help us improve our professionally written Crestron module that would be great. I will certainly try to support any questions you have. You can email me at the lumagen.com support email.
> 
> The current module did not account for all the then source aspect ratios we support, and we have added the 1.90 source aspect since then.
> 
> Overall I hear that the Crestron Module is well written (I am not a Crestron programmer so I do not have first hand knowledge of this). Improving it would be all the better.


Thanks @jrp ; I’ll be happy to share any additions that I make with you via email. 

I’m not a professional programmer. Just a keen geek who programmes my own crestron system at home. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

carpantata said:


> 1) Is there any case where calibrating SDR / HDR where 2020 <-> 601/709 = Auto convert ?
> 
> 2) Is there any case when calibrating SDR / HDR where Intensity Mapping Enable = On ?


1) Yes. If you are calibrating CMS0 for SDR 709, and have CMS0 Colorspace = SDR2020, and "Auto convert" enabled (HDR flag is off), then you put the projector in Rec 2020 Gamma 2.4 mode (as you must in any case), you can calibrate using SDR 709 input pattern and Rec 709, Gamma 2.4 or Bt.1886, targets, and it will work.

The path is: 709 input -> Radiance Pro converts to Rec 2020 data and outputs as Rec 2020 from the Pro. The projector is in Rec 2020 mode and so when it interprets the data in Rec 2020, the points end up back where they should be for Rec 709.

This allows you to use SDR2020 for Colorspace for both CMS0 and CMS1, avoiding the colorspace change from SDR to/from HDR source.

2) No. Radiance Pro calibration for both SDR and HDR content is done with SDR patterns, to a Gamma = 2.4 (or for SDR content you can target Bt.1886). So HDR content is not used, and DTM is always disabled for SDR content.


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> Thanks @jrp ; I’ll be happy to share any additions that I make with you via email.
> 
> I’m not a professional programmer. Just a keen geek who programmes my own crestron system at home.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be great. 

As you have questions, please reach out to me at the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## turls

jrp said:


> The Non-PiP remote will be used for all non-PiP capable units, but the "PiP remote" version will be the standard remote for the 444X series going forward. Yes, I know, we have not implemented PiP yet, but we do still plan to. I am sure this will illicit a comment from the peanut gallery.


Well, I didn't see anybody from the "peanut gallery" respond, so I will...I was a little behind on reading posts, but I went back 3 months, and never saw any other real mention of PiP/PoP, and it's probably been much longer than that since anybody has asked...so I'll be that guy. I've now had the Radiance Pro for over 6 years...I had PiP/PoP on my previous unit. So I haven't had this feature for all those years...I know jrp is aware, but maybe it puts into perspective asking for features or enhancements that are being worked on now that wouldn't even have existed in 2015...my point / question is where is PiP in the roadmap these days? It seems every time it is ready to bump higher, it gets pushed back down.

I'm getting ready to invest even more money in the Radiance ecosystem on an expensive Control4 driver (not that the driver isn't worth it, but it is more of an investment than most paid drivers, and for perspective (again) most drivers for Control4 are free (frequently funded by the manufacturer)), so I thought it was a good time to ask.

(I do feel I have been more patient than anybody should reasonably be expected to be...I only ask about this maybe once a year or less)


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Not sure of all the possible uses for this new "report aspect when Auto Aspect is off" feature. This is specifically in response to a request to report the detected source aspect while Auto Aspect is off. This request was from a control system program, but I do not recall the details of why he requested it at the moment.
> 
> The case I can think of is a 16:9 screen with masking. The programmer does not want Auto Aspect on since the Pro does not need to make aspect changes because everything all aspect stay in the 16:9 raster. Then the new Full v4 is used to auto-report the actual aspect detected by the Pro to the control system, and the control system is used to control screen masking.


I was one of the people asking for this a while ago (or some variant of). Thank you very much for adding it. 

In my case, I do indeed have a 16:9 screen with top bottom electric masks with 6 masks position stored (16:9, 1.85:1, 2:1, 2.2:1, 2.35:1 and 2.4:1). So in no case does my image actually need to change, I just need the trigger to move the masks to the right place. My desire for this was because Auto-aspect triggers an aspect change in the Radiance, and it seems even if that aspect change >could< do nothing to the video (because, for instance, 16:9 screen with 16:9 content, going to 16:9 screen masked to 2.35:1 content with letterbox zoom disabled) there is maybe a single frame glitch in the video. You can also see such effect if zooming in the Radiance - there is an odd scaled frame in the middle of the two different scalings - it's like it can't set up the new scaling in a single frame.

The visual effect in my theatre was that auto-aspect would detect 1 or 2 seconds into a scene, then you'd see a brief "glitch", then the masks would move. It was a bit jarring in the presentation, and just spoilt the magic of aspect detection a little for me - masking screens are unfeasibly expensive for what they are and you want it all to be top-notch . With the new report it's now possible for the masks to just start moving without and impact on the video that is playing as no Radiance aspect change happens, which is really nice. Without noticing it you transition to perfectly masked video. The only thing that I'd love to implement but can't see any way to do it would be to make the video "unmask" along with the masks when transitioning to 16:9 from 2.4 - so the image opens up. At the moment - through no fault of the Radiance's - when you go from 2.4 -> 16.9 you get overspill onto the masks until they've moved out of the way. I guess if there were a controllable way to be able to adjust the top / bottom masking in the Radiance a pixel at a time (and it could be done without glitching the video) you could make the masking of the video image unmask after the masks have moved, which would be cool. I know you can shrink over the serial protocol, but not mask?

The only downside with this implementation using the new report is that you lose some of the nice tweaks that have been added to auto aspect in recent times (sticky aspect override, merging of aspects) and they then need separately implementing in a control system; I was benefiting from letting the Lumagen be the "master" of the screen logic. That meant I could change aspect in the Lumagen and have the screen move, and I could nobble auto aspect and have it re-enable magically when switching to a new source. All that logic now needs to go into a separate control program. Will have to think about how I do that as it will need to get a bit more complicated.


----------



## dfx59

jrp said:


> Everyone:
> 
> Thanks for the feedback on remote code conflict with JVC. There is no "organization" that controls IR code sequences. I know NEC (and I think Sony) have generated code sequences and given out specific "vendor ID" ranges to various entities to help prevent conflict, but the Lumagen codes are from 2002 and I believe before this occurred. At that time we were told the IR code sequences we were given by our then IR remote control vendor (who no longer exists) would not conflict.
> 
> We may be able to eliminate the conflict. I suspect the Lumagen IR code sequences are a "close enough" subset of some JVC IR codes to cause the Lumagen to accept them as a command. I will check the RS4500 remote IR code sequences (which I have never had this issue with) to see if I can see an issue on the oscilloscope. The Lumagen IR command processor should be able to be changed to reject the JVC IR code sequence header. If this looks feasible (as I expect), we will put it on our to do list.


Talking about remote, may I had the possibility to pick up a code variance through, for example, an ID ?
I find out I was messing with my 2143 when setting up a 4242 which was placed on top of it....
I understand it's not usual to have 2 lumagen in a rack but a solution would be appreciated


----------



## SJHT

turls said:


> Well, I didn't see anybody from the "peanut gallery" respond, so I will...I was a little behind on reading posts, but I went back 3 months, and never saw any other real mention of PiP/PoP, and it's probably been much longer than that since anybody has asked...so I'll be that guy. I've now had the Radiance Pro for over 6 years...I had PiP/PoP on my previous unit. So I haven't had this feature for all those years...I know jrp is aware, but maybe it puts into perspective asking for features or enhancements that are being worked on now that wouldn't even have existed in 2015...my point / question is where is PiP in the roadmap these days? It seems every time it is ready to bump higher, it gets pushed back down.
> 
> I'm getting ready to invest even more money in the Radiance ecosystem on an expensive Control4 driver (not that the driver isn't worth it, but it is more of an investment than most paid drivers, and for perspective (again) most drivers for Control4 are free (frequently funded by the manufacturer)), so I thought it was a good time to ask.
> 
> (I do feel I have been more patient than anybody should reasonably be expected to be...I only ask about this maybe once a year or less)


I have been asking for PIP/POP ever since I got my Pro. Used it a lot in my previous Lumagen. Now that I upgraded to a 5348 have moved on. Lol. Still wish it was possible with that unit, but knew going in it will not be. It is a slick feature…. SJ


----------



## jrp

dfx59 said:


> Talking about remote, may I had the possibility to pick up a code variance through, for example, an ID ?
> I find out I was messing with my 2143 when setting up a 4242 which was placed on top of it....
> I understand it's not usual to have 2 lumagen in a rack but a solution would be appreciated


The best solution is to use RS232 commands. Higher end systems with two Radiance or Radiance Pro models generally have a control system, and this works well.

Alternately, some IR controller can have Zones. You would use the wired IR input on the back of each, and put them in different IR zones.


----------



## docrog

For Darbee Processing enthusiasts, Pixelgendesign has now indicated an early September shipping date for pre-orders of the 4K standalone "PXLVISION powered by Darbee" module. Here's the link






Pixelgen Design







www.pixelgendesign.com


----------



## bobof

Very basic script that does a Lumagen volume OSD for the Monoprice HTP1 here. Could be expanded relatively easily to add other fields.








The "Official" Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 Owners...


Emotiva sells a trigger device with 4 assignable sequenced outputs, it allows you to pick which to power on from 1st to 4th, whatever order you want I believe so. Now powering it all down I don’t know how that works. See also...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## blake

aguy said:


> Question for the crestron owners.
> 
> Has anyone got a more recent crestron module than the one on the lumagen website ?
> 
> I’m just starting my integration. The website one is working fine but there are some new commands plus others in the Lumagen command list that aren’t in the module yet.
> 
> I’m happy to modify the website module myself if need be but wanted to ask the greater community in case I was duplicating work that had already been done.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Creston module on the lumagen website is not fully functional. My programmer used it as a base, but had to make a LOT of changes to work right. Jim had mentioned there are some issues (a couple months ago). Mind you, I was requesting reporting of AR and ability to move the masks etc based on that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aguy

Yes. I will make the changes myself. I’ve offered to share the changes with Jim. 

For example there isn’t yet any feedback as to whether the lumagen is powered on. It’s a simple change but at the moment crestron doesn’t know if I power my lumagen on via the ir remote. 

The aspect ratio reporting is in the nee firmware and I will look to adding that too. 

Just takes time. I got my theatre to turn on correctly for the first time yesterday with all the devices being controlled by crestron. Really very nice. 

I hit Kodi button on my remote and the projector starts. The artwork which covers the screen will open up and the masking panels goto 1.78 for the Kodi menu. Then I’ve also got it working such that Kodi reports the aspect ratio of the currently playing movie and the masking panels move to the exact aspect ratio. Can be any ratio from 1.33 to 2.40. Not just present ones. For example if I had a weird movie at 2.25 the panels would move to that exact ratio. 

Lots of subtle improvements to come but yesterday was the first time my wife or one of my other family members was able to watch a movie without me being home. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Killroy

bobof said:


> Very basic script that does a Lumagen volume OSD for the Monoprice HTP1 here. Could be expanded relatively easily to add other fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "Official" Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 Owners...
> 
> 
> Emotiva sells a trigger device with 4 assignable sequenced outputs, it allows you to pick which to power on from 1st to 4th, whatever order you want I believe so. Now powering it all down I don’t know how that works. See also...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


You need a Pi to run the script correct?


----------



## bobof

Killroy said:


> You need a Pi to run the script correct?


I use a Pi because it is cheap, small, and uses a tiny amount of power so leaving it on all the time is no big deal. All you really need is a compatible Python environment, so it probably works under Python on Windows or Mac or any Linux you like on a PC. You'd need to install python3.7 from the web, and then use the pip command to install the things that are "Import"ed at the top of the script. The serial port stuff probably needs changing on Mac and Windows to use the right serial port devices (and on linux, if you have more than one USB serial port, you'll need to pick the right one).


----------



## Hoi

I wanted to drop in and preach to the choir. I decided to join the club just for the heck of it and put a 5348 with a Keces P8 into my setup. I finally had a chance to sit down and watch a movie last night and was blown away with the HDR DTM and Atmos track. I usually skip anything that has to do with streaming but wow, The Mitchells vs The Machines is now the only Netflix film that is demo worthy.

I have tried several scenes from movies using my other setup (madVR with a 3090 GPU) and I can vouch for the guys that say that Lumagen's DTM provides a more natural and consistent picture.

I still would like to use my HTPC as the main device (speed and convenience) and wanted to know what the correct settings should be in the Nvidia control panel. Should it be 444 or 422 limited instead of RGB full?


----------



## asharma

Hi folks...new 4240 user here...I‘m trying the simplest setup...4K BR to 18G input 1, 9G output to tv...when I fire up the 4240, I get a pink screen on my Sony 900F tv...All cables are longer than 2 meters and never a problem with existing cables on any other devices...does pink screen typically suggest new cables required? any other ideas? Thanks folks

EDIT: SOLVED, used 2nd output on 4240...I wish I could promise there won’t be more newbie questions 😥


----------



## asharma

Ok, now I’m trying to use my AVR to switch so monitor out of AVR to input 1 of 4240 and output 2 of 4240 to tv...won’t sync...is there a specific fire up sequence I need to use? ie. Display then AVR then Lumagen then Panny? Thanks folks


----------



## Hoi

asharma said:


> Ok, now I’m trying to use my AVR to switch so monitor out of AVR to input 1 of 4240 and output 2 of 4240 to tv...won’t sync...is there a specific fire up sequence I need to use? ie. Display then AVR then Lumagen then Panny? Thanks folks


New user also. See post #7643.


----------



## asharma

Hoi said:


> New user also. See post #7643.


Awesome, thanks man!


----------



## asharma

Well, I am up and running, switching my Sheild and Panny 820 with my AVR...Question, the 4240 shows it’s outputting 4K HDR and there is no funky weird color saturation but my Sony TV doesn’t show the HDR flag beside the picture mode...Is this normal or is there a setting in the Lumagen to flip the HDR flag on the Sony picture menu to ON? Thanks folks

Edit: perhaps the Sony TV only shows the HDR flag if THE SONY TV is actually doing the tmapping?


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Well, I am up and running, switching my Sheild and Panny 820 with my AVR...Question, the 4240 shows it’s outputting 4K HDR and there is no funky weird color saturation but my Sony TV doesn’t show the HDR flag beside the picture mode...Is this normal or is there a setting in the Lumagen to flip the HDR flag on the Sony picture menu to ON? Thanks folks
> 
> Edit: perhaps the Sony TV only shows the HDR flag if THE SONY TV is actually doing the tmapping?


Press OK on the Lumagen, and take a photo of the screen that shows input and output formats.
In likelihood by default I believe the Lumagen is not outputting HDR when it is receiving HDR, but instead outputting tonemapped SDR.


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> Press OK on the Lumagen, and take a photo of the screen that shows input and output formats.
> In likelihood by default I believe the Lumagen is not outputting HDR when it is receiving HDR, but instead outputting tonemapped SDR.


looks like outputting SDR...😳 More reading required...


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> looks like outputting SDR...😳 More reading required...


That's the default and usually best way to use these.
Though you may choose to output SDR2020 or SDRP3 instead, and optionally with a JVC projector send the HDR flag to trigger a mode change (I don't like using that function personally in the JVC units).
There are very few situations where you would want the Radiance to be outputting HDR signals.


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> That's the default and usually best way to use these.
> Though you may choose to output SDR2020 or SDRP3 instead, and optionally with a JVC projector send the HDR flag to trigger a mode change (I don't like using that function personally in the JVC units).
> There are very few situations where you would want the Radiance to be outputting HDR signals.


Thanks, When the JVC does the tmapping is the JVC outputting tone mapped SDR? Also does SDR2020 use a wider gamut than just SDR? When would someone chose to make the Lumagen output HDR? Sorry for the barrage of questions...I’m a bit surprised to hear about tonemapped SDR but perhaps that’s all the JVC is doing also...Thanks again


----------



## 187crew003

asharma said:


> Thanks, When the JVC does the tmapping is the JVC outputting tone mapped SDR? Also does SDR2020 use a wider gamut than just SDR? When would someone chose to make the Lumagen output HDR? Sorry for the barrage of questions...I’m a bit surprised to hear about tonemapped SDR but perhaps that’s all the JVC is doing also...Thanks again


It’s still HDR but in an SDR container so the JVC doesn’t try to do its own tone mapping.

the hdr signal is tonemapped to your settings/display. Then puts it in a sdr container.
Yes sdr2020 uses the full color gamut of hdr.

Set your JVC up for 2.4 gamma and rec2020. Then have the lumagen output a hdr signal to sdr2020


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Thanks, When the JVC does the tmapping is the JVC outputting tone mapped SDR? Also does SDR2020 use a wider gamut than just SDR? When would someone chose to make the Lumagen output HDR? Sorry for the barrage of questions...I’m a bit surprised to hear about tonemapped SDR but perhaps that’s all the JVC is doing also...Thanks again


A display doesn't have "HDR" or "SDR" really. It has HDMI input values mapped to pixel levels. When the JVC tonemaps, it maps the PQ gamma curve (that could go all the way up to 10000 nits) into the pixel levels such that you get a useable image. The panel gamma, for what it is worth, is often around the 2-2.2 range for most displays (Ie SDR-like gamma).

Yes, if you use SDR2020 then you will have a wider output gamut than SDR709. Note that you have to make sure your display input modes match up with what the Lumagen is outputting - so if you output SDR2020 you need to use 2020 or HDR modes on the projector, but with power law gamma to match the Lumagen's output (ie 2.4).


----------



## asharma

187crew003 said:


> It’s still HDR but in an SDR container so the JVC doesn’t try to do its own tone mapping.
> 
> the hdr signal is tonemapped to your settings/display. Then puts it in a sdr container.
> Yes sdr2020 uses the full color gamut of hdr.
> 
> Set your JVC up for 2.4 gamma and rec2020. Then have the lumagen output a hdr signal to sdr2020


Thanks, so the JVC in the info menu will never say HDR because it thinks it’s receiving an SDR signal And same with my Sony TV?


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> A display doesn't have "HDR" or "SDR" really. It has HDMI input values mapped to pixel levels. When the JVC tonemaps, it maps the PQ gamma curve (that could go all the way up to 10000 nits) into the pixel levels such that you get a useable image. The panel gamma, for what it is worth, is often around the 2-2.2 range for most displays (Ie SDR-like gamma).
> 
> Yes, if you use SDR2020 then you will have a wider output gamut than SDR709. Note that you have to make sure your display input modes match up with what the Lumagen is outputting - so if you output SDR2020 you need to use 2020 or HDR modes on the projector, but with power law gamma to match the Lumagen's output (ie 2.4).


Thanks, I’m just on the wait list for my RS3000 so I’m using my Sony TV for now...I understand what u r saying about matching inputs on the JVC (need to use BT2020 wide etc) but I don’t think I have that capability on my Sony tv...without the Lumagen on the tv, if I insert a 4K disc, it just automatically maps to HDR...no settings done on my part...


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> When would someone chose to make the Lumagen output HDR?


Forgot to answer this. Some displays have odd quirks, like not being able to display full gamut (some BENQ PJ) or full brightness (some LG OLED) unless the signal looks like an HDR signal. So you have to weigh the benefit of getting around those quirks against the fact you end up usually with double tonemapping (in both the Radiance and the display) if the Radiance is outputting HDR. 

Much better to output SDR from the Radiance, which the display doesn't do anything to other than marry up the pixel values with their expected 2.4 input gamma to the panel gamma.


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Thanks, I’m just on the wait list for my RS3000 so I’m using my Sony TV for now...I understand what u r saying about matching inputs on the JVC (need to use BT2020 wide etc) but I don’t think I have that capability on my Sony tv...without the Lumagen on the tv, if I insert a 4K disc, it just automatically maps to HDR...no settings done on my part...


Really the way to get best results out of the Radiance (or any other video processor) is to understand the particular way the display works in each of its modes, and set the Radiance and the Display to the modes that complement each other as best as possible. I know nothing about how your particular Sony TV works.


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> Forgot to answer this. Some displays have odd quirks, like not being able to display full gamut (some BENQ PJ) or full brightness (some LG OLED) unless the signal looks like an HDR signal. So you have to weigh the benefit of getting around those quirks against the fact you end up usually with double tonemapping (in both the Radiance and the display) if the Radiance is outputting HDR.
> 
> Much better to output SDR from the Radiance, which the display doesn't do anything to other than marry up the pixel values with their expected 2.4 input gamma to the panel gamma.


Thanks again, when You say better to output SDR from the Lumagen to the JVC, are you really saying better to output HDR in an SDR container to the JVC as the Lumagen does a better job with its HDR tonemapping (separate and aside from placing it in an SDR container) than using the built in tonemapping in the JVC?


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> Really the way to get best results out of the Radiance (or any other video processor) is to understand the particular way the display works in each of its modes, and set the Radiance and the Display to the modes that complement each other as best as possible. I know nothing about how your particular Sony TV works.


Understood Sir...while I wait for my JVC, the TV is simply allowing me to familiarize myself a bit with the Lumagen...I know my JVC far better than my Sony TV also...

edit: so this would mean with the Lumagen I don’t run the JVC in frame adapt mode...HDR mode would be fine


----------



## docrog

asharma said:


> Thanks, so the JVC in the info menu will never say HDR because it thinks it’s receiving an SDR signal And same with my Sony TV?


The JVC will menu will indicate that HDR is being received (and will report nits) as long as you set the RP output to "HDR FLAG ON". You'll want to make sure that you don't also make use of the JVC frame/scene tone mapping in addition to the RP.


----------



## PeterLarsson

asharma said:


> Well, I am up and running, switching my Sheild and Panny 820 with my AVR...Question, the 4240 shows it’s outputting 4K HDR and there is no funky weird color saturation but my Sony TV doesn’t show the HDR flag beside the picture mode...Is this normal or is there a setting in the Lumagen to flip the HDR flag on the Sony picture menu to ON? Thanks folks
> 
> Edit: perhaps the Sony TV only shows the HDR flag if THE SONY TV is actually doing the tmapping?


I think as on Sony Projector you should send your signal from Lumagen to TV in a SDR container BT2020. The signal in is HDR but the output should then be SDR BT2020. Press ok button and tell us what is says.


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Thanks again, when You say better to output SDR from the Lumagen to the JVC, are you really saying better to output HDR in an SDR container to the JVC as the Lumagen does a better job with its HDR tonemapping (separate and aside from placing it in an SDR container) than using the built in tonemapping in the JVC?


I dislike the "HDR in SDR container" because that's not what it outputs, it is SDR that has been tone mapped from HDR, but it is basically yes, the Lumagen should do a better job of mapping the 0-10000 nit range of the HDR content to the 0-100 or so nits you actually have on your projector, than the projector could do itself, even with the latest JVC frame adapt tone mapping. 

If the projector thinks the input is still HDR and you're not careful with the settings you will still have the projector trying to tone map, which is why you need to make sure the display and the Lumagen have complementary settings.

The Lumagen defaults sensibly to outputting tonemapped REC709 SDR from HDR content as this is unambiguous; most displays should receive that and you should get a pretty good image, though it will have a reduced gamut due to REC709 mapping, and the display might not go as bright as it otherwise would (mostly in the case of TVs).

You can use the HDR flag as an "automation helper" with the JVC projectors, where you want the projector to change picture modes between HDR and SDR content being received by the Radiance. If you use the HDR flag you need to exercise caution in the setup of the JVC, as by default if it sees the HDR flag it will expect that the gamma of the signal being received is HDR, and then try and tone map that itself. If you use the HDR flag you have to make sure that it knows the signal gamma is 2.4 and that it isn't going to try and tone map. 

Some JVC projectors - either through faults or design corner cases - can get into odd states with their mechanical irises when using the HDR flag to switch between different iris positions - it's an issue of the projector, not the Radiance. So if you don't need the HDR flag (either you don't need different iris positions, or you can automate the projector through a control system) I would do that for the avoidance of the risk.


----------



## asharma

docrog said:


> The JVC will menu will indicate that HDR is being received (and will report nits) as long as you set the RP output to "HDR FLAG ON". You'll want to make sure that you don't also make use of the JVC frame/scene tone mapping in addition to the RP.


Thanks, What mode needs to be used on the JVC if the Lumagen is outputting SDRBT2020 with the HDR flag set to on? Is it a User mode with gamma set to 2.4 or is it the already present HDR mode (not frame adapt)...?


----------



## asharma

PeterLarsson said:


> I think as on Sony Projector you should send your signal from Lumagen to TV in a SDR container BT2020. The signal in is HDR but the output should then be SDR BT2020. Press ok button and tell us what is says.


Thanks, See post 11802...it’s outputting rec709...


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> A display doesn't have "HDR" or "SDR" really. It has HDMI input values mapped to pixel levels. When the JVC tonemaps, it maps the PQ gamma curve (that could go all the way up to 10000 nits) into the pixel levels such that you get a useable image. The panel gamma, for what it is worth, is often around the 2-2.2 range for most displays (Ie SDR-like gamma).
> 
> Yes, if you use SDR2020 then you will have a wider output gamut than SDR709. Note that you have to make sure your display input modes match up with what the Lumagen is outputting - so if you output SDR2020 you need to use 2020 or HDR modes on the projector, but with power law gamma to match the Lumagen's output (ie 2.4).


thanks...What happens on a TV that is 3500 nits on a 1000 nit movie? I’m assuming no Tmapping takes place and the luminance curve is ST2084 so there is no cramming an HDR signal into a 100 nit bucket with a 2.4 gamma?


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> thanks...What happens on a TV that is 3500 nits on a 1000 nit movie? I’m assuming no Tmapping takes place and the luminance curve is ST2084 so there is no cramming an HDR signal into a 100 nit bucket with a 2.4 gamma?


I assume in this instance you are just talking about the TV, without involving a Radiance?

If the TV truly has 3500 nits capability then all it should be doing is mapping the input signal 0-1000 nits to achieve 0-1000 nits out of the panel. The net effect should be no difference between the incoming data and the output image - 500 nits output at 500, 1000 nits at 1000, etc. But at a technical level, along the way the TV will be doing some mapping as the underlying panel gamma of the TV will be more like SDR than PQ curve HDR, inspite of the higher nit capability).

The above is a should - I understand not all TVs choose to accurately follow the PQ curve - Samsung for instance have made their own decisions that they don't follow it in some modes I believe.

If you're involving a Radiance, it will do... whatever you told it to do.


----------



## 187crew003

bobof said:


> I dislike the "HDR in SDR container" because that's not what it outputs, it is SDR that has been tone mapped from HDR, but it is basically yes, the Lumagen should do a better job of mapping the 0-10000 nit range of the HDR content to the 0-100 or so nits you actually have on your projector, than the projector could do itself, even with the latest JVC frame adapt tone mapping.
> 
> If the projector thinks the input is still HDR and you're not careful with the settings you will still have the projector trying to tone map, which is why you need to make sure the display and the Lumagen have complementary settings.
> 
> The Lumagen defaults sensibly to outputting tonemapped REC709 SDR from HDR content as this is unambiguous; most displays should receive that and you should get a pretty good image, though it will have a reduced gamut due to REC709 mapping, and the display might not go as bright as it otherwise would (mostly in the case of TVs).
> 
> You can use the HDR flag as an "automation helper" with the JVC projectors, where you want the projector to change picture modes between HDR and SDR content being received by the Radiance. If you use the HDR flag you need to exercise caution in the setup of the JVC, as by default if it sees the HDR flag it will expect that the gamma of the signal being received is HDR, and then try and tone map that itself. If you use the HDR flag you have to make sure that it knows the signal gamma is 2.4 and that it isn't going to try and tone map.
> 
> Some JVC projectors - either through faults or design corner cases - can get into odd states with their mechanical irises when using the HDR flag to switch between different iris positions - it's an issue of the projector, not the Radiance. So if you don't need the HDR flag (either you don't need different iris positions, or you can automate the projector through a control system) I would do that for the avoidance of the risk.


while i agree with what your saying about HDR in a SDR container...i dont like NOT saying it to the uninformed because they then think they are not getting the benefits of HDR and "only" getting SDR. HDR in a SDR container is easier to understand in "laymans" terms


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> while i agree with what your saying about HDR in a SDR container...i dont like NOT saying it to the uninformed because they then think they are not getting the benefits of HDR and "only" getting SDR. HDR in a SDR container is easier to understand in "laymans" terms


Yes, it's hard to know what's best, to be fair. They're pretty complicated concepts to explain at the best of times.


----------



## asharma

Hi Folks, a few questions, please and thank you...

pic 1: when I press the ok button why does output say SDH2020? Should it not say SDR2020?
pic 2 and 3: would these be the right settings for SDR2020? I set the nit level to 800 on my Sony TV as I’m waiting for my RS3000

Appreciate the help folks...


----------



## jbrinegar

asharma said:


> Hi Folks, a few questions, please and thank you...
> 
> pic 1: when I press the ok button why does output say SDH2020? Should it not say SDR2020?
> pic 2 and 3: would these be the right settings for SDR2020? I set the nit level to 800 on my Sony TV as I’m waiting for my RS3000
> 
> Appreciate the help folks...


SDH2020= You have the hdr flag turned on in your lumagen and being sent to your display. This will make it activate the displays HDR mode automatically (like on JVC projectors)


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Hi Folks, a few questions, please and thank you...
> 
> pic 1: when I press the ok button why does output say SDH2020? Should it not say SDR2020?
> pic 2 and 3: would these be the right settings for SDR2020? I set the nit level to 800 on my Sony TV as I’m waiting for my RS3000
> 
> Appreciate the help folks...


Unless you can set the TV to be 2.4 gamma when receiving the *H*DR flag (that's the *H* in SD*H*) then you should disable the HDR flag.

Usually you would set the max light, for a projector, to something like 5-6x the measured peak white nits. For TVs I think the ratio is lower, but it seems like at 800 you've probably set it to what you think the peak nits of your TV are?


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> Unless you can set the TV to be 2.4 gamma when receiving the *H*DR flag (that's the *H* in SD*H*) then you should disable the HDR flag.
> 
> Usually you would set the max light, for a projector, to something like 5-6x the measured peak white nits. For TVs I think the ratio is lower, but it seems like at 800 you've probably set it to what you think the peak nits of your TV are?


Correct...my tv’s peak nits are somewhere between 800-900...Also with the HDR flag on, the TV seems to be kicking in to HDR mode as the TV now says HDR with all the TV’s HDR brightness values looking correct...is that still a problem Leaving the HDR flag on?


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Correct...my tv’s peak nits are somewhere between 800-900...Also with the HDR flag on, the TV seems to be kicking in to HDR mode as the TV now says HDR with all the TV’s HDR brightness values looking correct...is that still a problem Leaving the HDR flag on?


Unless you've made changes to the TV, so that even with HDR flag it is expecting that the input gamma is 2.4, and not ST2084.PQ gamma, it's very unlikely for SDH2020 to give a sensible image except by some fortuitous accident with some of the other parameters (it might be working for instance because the max light isn't right)..

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but these aren't settings to guess at and see what it looks like. There is usually only 1 optimal setup for a given goal on a display, a few that are compromises, and a lot of ways to set it up that are basically wrong! . 

Are you going to calibrate with the Radiance - are you set up to measure what the display is doing in each mode that you try? Or are you getting it pro calibrated? If you can measure it yourself you compare the settings instead of relying on "Calibrated Eyeball Mk 1"


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> Unless you've made changes to the TV, so that even with HDR flag it is expecting that the input gamma is 2.4, and not ST2084.PQ gamma, it's very unlikely for SDH2020 to give a sensible image except by some fortuitous accident with some of the other parameters (it might be working for instance because the max light isn't right)..
> 
> Sorry to sound like a broken record, but these aren't settings to guess at and see what it looks like. There is usually only 1 optimal setup for a given goal on a display, a few that are compromises, and a lot of ways to set it up that are basically wrong! .
> 
> Are you going to calibrate with the Radiance - are you set up to measure what the display is doing in each mode that you try? Or are you getting it pro calibrated? If you can measure it yourself you compare the settings instead of relying on "Calibrated Eyeball Mk 1"


Thanks for your input. Unfortunately we don’t have any pro calibrators where I live. I have a Spyder X and i1Pro2 that I use with autocal and the JVC. That gives me a very basic calibration. I’m just fiddling with the RP while I wait for my projector to arrive in a couple weeks “hoping” to learn enuf to be dangerous while I solicit input from here and also read the 100 page manual.

I can see that there are a variety of settings for any given setup. You are 100 percent correct in that they shouldn’t be guessed at. I know I can pay a professional calibrator to produce a config file for me. Just trying to learn a day at a time in the meantime. Again, appreciate your support.


----------



## asharma

bobof said:


> Unless you've made changes to the TV, so that even with HDR flag it is expecting that the input gamma is 2.4, and not ST2084.PQ gamma, it's very unlikely for SDH2020 to give a sensible image except by some fortuitous accident with some of the other parameters (it might be working for instance because the max light isn't right)..


This must be a fortuitous accident as Mulan looks phenom...simply outputting sdr2020 with hdr flag on and hdr mapping set to 800 nits...TV kicks into HDR mode with the standard Sony HDR picture settings...with that being said I’m sure there are 100 things wrong with my config...


----------



## bjorg

For a 1,000 nits display, what is the recomended RadiancePro calibration? Note the display can either be configured for SDR or HDR, but cannot detect and switch. So it has to be _fire-and-forget setup._


----------



## asharma

187crew003 said:


> new to me radiance pro 4442 coming in late this week or next week. Very excited to join the ranks to go along with my JVC rs600 on my 120" 2.40 screen
> 
> mainly looking forward to the DTM and NLS! but now looking into chromapure to use the lumagen to calibrate my PJ
> 
> excting times!


Do you find you use NLS to stretch 16:9 to scope? I’m hoping to do the same to fill my screen all the time...How do u like it? Others, please feel free to chime in...Thanks


----------



## DenverMDM

asharma said:


> Do you find you use NLS to stretch 16:9 to scope? I’m hoping to do the same to fill my screen all the time...How do u like it? Others, please feel free to chime in...Thanks


Interesting you asked this question because I was also curious how others liked NLS with 16:9 content. I have a JVC RS500 with an ISCO III anamorphic lens that stays in place although it is in a motorized sled. My screen is 2:35 to1. Lately I’ve noticed that I’m liking not using NLS with 16:9 because of the minor weird artifacts on motion or when viewing menus on my Oppo. Check out the menu with the moon on the oppo and see how it’s not round but oblong. This has led me to think about motorized curtains to mask 16:9 content instead of using NLS. I know Jim has talked about maybe doing pincushion or geometry features. Maybe NLS will work better then for a projector setup? Any advice to make it more livable is welcome!


----------



## bobof

DenverMDM said:


> Interesting you asked this question because I was also curious how others liked NLS with 16:9 content. I have a JVC RS500 with an ISCO III anamorphic lens that stays in place although it is in a motorized sled. My screen is 2:35 to1. Lately I’ve noticed that I’m liking not using NLS with 16:9 because of the minor weird artifacts on motion or when viewing menus on my Oppo. Check out the menu with the moon on the oppo and see how it’s not round but oblong. This has led me to think about motorized curtains to mask 16:9 content instead of using NLS. I know Jim has talked about maybe doing pincushion or geometry features. Maybe NLS will work better then for a projector setup? Any advice to make it more livable is welcome!


The issues you are seeing with NLS have nothing to do with pin-cushion or geometry correction, they're fundamentally how NLS works.

You can tweak the NLS setup to change the proportions, you might find that increasing the centre portion size / top and sides cropping, and reducing the amount of stretch, may make the image more to your tastes. But you may well just be in the group that is annoyed by geometric issues.

If you don't mind the fact that NLS is probably cropping a bit off the top and bottom of your screen, then you could carry on having the cropping, but remove all the stretching - ie so it's just a bit of zoom. Then you wouldn't mask down the screen so much (so you'd mask to perhaps 2.0 or 2.2).

I'd go for some amount of masking every time over anything that does stretching. The only thing with a 2.35 screen masking down to 16:9 is that you might find 16:9 is just too small on the screen, depending on your viewing angle and preference. You should be able to test that without buying the masking, but with a motorized track you should have the flexibility to control how much you mask by.


----------



## DenverMDM

bobof said:


> The issues you are seeing with NLS have nothing to do with pin-cushion or geometry correction, they're fundamentally how NLS works.
> 
> You can tweak the NLS setup to change the proportions, you might find that increasing the centre portion size / top and sides cropping, and reducing the amount of stretch, may make the image more to your tastes. But you may well just be in the group that is annoyed by geometric issues.
> 
> If you don't mind the fact that NLS is probably cropping a bit off the top and bottom of your screen, then you could carry on having the cropping, but remove all the stretching - ie so it's just a bit of zoom. Then you wouldn't mask down the screen so much (so you'd mask to perhaps 2.0 or 2.2).
> 
> I'd go for some amount of masking every time over anything that does stretching. The only thing with a 2.35 screen masking down to 16:9 is that you might find 16:9 is just too small on the screen, depending on your viewing angle and preference. You should be able to test that without buying the masking, but with a motorized track you should have the flexibility to control how much you mask by.
> [/QUOTE
> Yea I think I may just use my friction fit masking panels I made specifically for 16:9. I just remembered that I made them a few years back. They are easy to fit but not as easy as a motorized solution would be. Before that I’ll play with center stretch as you’ve suggested and see if that could work for me.


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> The issues you are seeing with NLS have nothing to do with pin-cushion or geometry correction, they're fundamentally how NLS works.
> 
> You can tweak the NLS setup to change the proportions, you might find that increasing the centre portion size / top and sides cropping, and reducing the amount of stretch, may make the image more to your tastes. But you may well just be in the group that is annoyed by geometric issues.
> 
> If you don't mind the fact that NLS is probably cropping a bit off the top and bottom of your screen, then you could carry on having the cropping, but remove all the stretching - ie so it's just a bit of zoom. Then you wouldn't mask down the screen so much (so you'd mask to perhaps 2.0 or 2.2).


100% correct. Personally I just turn off the center stretch and just crop top/bottom (a bit more of the bottom to fit faces better). I am extremely happy with it. I just wished we had the geometry correction but Jim said it´s likely to never happen.


----------



## 187crew003

asharma said:


> Do you find you use NLS to stretch 16:9 to scope? I’m hoping to do the same to fill my screen all the time...How do u like it? Others, please feel free to chime in...Thanks


thats all i use. I cant tell/know now if thre film is originally 1.85 or 2.40 lol One of my favorite features of the lumagen


----------



## bobof

DenverMDM said:


> Yea I think I may just use my friction fit masking panels I made specifically for 16:9. I just remembered that I made them a few years back. They are easy to fit but not as easy as a motorized solution would be. Before that I’ll play with center stretch as you’ve suggested and see if that could work for me.


There are lots of adjustments possible. At the end of the day you have to lose something - either cropping or geometric correction, but maybe you can get a good compromise that works. 
I had a play with it today and I think that NLS always stretches to the full width, so if you wanted to do just slight zoom then you'd have have to combine NLS with the "different aspect per input aspect" functionality.


----------



## DenverMDM

bobof said:


> There are lots of adjustments possible. At the end of the day you have to lose something - either cropping or geometric correction, but maybe you can get a good compromise that works.
> I had a play with it today and I think that NLS always stretches to the full width, so if you wanted to do just slight zoom then you'd have have to combine NLS with the "different aspect per input aspect" functionality.


I did try this over weekend to good result using Jim’s previous recommendation in post 9818. He suggested using the 2.2 aspect for the different output per setting for 16.9. It filled the screen better and minimized stretch. I’ll try to reducing the center stretch also for a better result. Thanks for the help fellas!


----------



## Craig Peer

asharma said:


> Do you find you use NLS to stretch 16:9 to scope? I’m hoping to do the same to fill my screen all the time...How do u like it? *Others, please feel free to chime in...Thanks*


I never use NLS. It's basically distorting the picture IMO.


----------



## DenverMDM

Craig Peer said:


> I never use NLS. It's basically distorting the picture IMO.


Craig,
Do you use a masking system?


----------



## Craig Peer

DenverMDM said:


> Craig,
> Do you use a masking system?


Not exactly. Believe it or not, two Stewart electric screens ( one 16:9, one scope ) was less expensive than an
electronic masking screen, and I can " split the difference " size wise. See my build thread in my signature for more details.


----------



## bjorg

Craig Peer said:


> Not exactly. Believe it or not, two Stewart electric screens ( one 16:9, one scope ) was less expensive than an
> electronic masking screen, and I can " split the difference " size wise. See my build thread in my signature for more details.


How do you focus the image on both? Automatic focus adjustment?


----------



## Craig Peer

bjorg said:


> How do you focus the image on both? Automatic focus adjustment?


Lens memory. Plus, they are only 5" apart. I remove my A lens for 16:9. I usually watch scope multiple days in a row, and if I watch 16:9, I'm usually watching that for more than one night. So it's not too big a deal.

I've been using two screens for close to 17 years now.


----------



## DenverMDM

Craig Peer said:


> Not exactly. Believe it or not, two Stewart electric screens ( one 16:9, one scope ) was less expensive than an
> electronic masking screen, and I can " split the difference " size wise. See my build thread in my signature for more details.
> 
> View attachment 3136607
> View attachment 3136608
> View attachment 3136609


Very nice! Love it!


----------



## bobof

For anyone interested, my new AppleTV4KGen2 arrived today, no issues observed so far with it on the input of the 5348.


----------



## Craig Peer

DenverMDM said:


> Very nice! Love it!


Ideally I'd have both screens the same square inches size wise ( my scope screen is just short due to throw distance ).


----------



## jrp

The horse race for Lumagen receiving remotes has heated up. We now have a presumptive winner (but they did have a year head start).

The "China Remote" has been manufactured and is in the hands of UPS. I am shipping all the remotes by UPS international saver to avoid further delays in shipping. I just got off the phone with UPS and the remotes should be on U.S. soil on May 23rd. I expect they will be delivered to us by the end of May, and maybe as early as the 25th. Fingers crossed the production remotes are as good as the samples.

The second horse is also off and running. We have paid for and released the "PiP" remote to production. They may be built in the USA with an "overlay" that comes from Korea, or the manufacturer may build in Korea and ship completed remotes. It is their choice. Either way I expect these "PiP" remote to be here in three weeks.

As discussed, neither of these has a backlight, and they have slightly different buttons. The China remote adds a Save, a Pattern, and a HDR Setup button. The PiP remote does not have these, but does have the PiP/PoP buttons. Both have the new source aspect buttons (1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.40), and the Auto-Aspect enable and disable buttons.

====

I want to thank everyone who participated in our "old-for-new" remote swap. We have also had a number of dealers allow us to ship without a remote in return for us sending one once they arrive. Together these have allowed us to keep up with the huge increase in orders we have experienced over the past six months. Many thanks to everyone who helped us out through this "supply chain" issue.

If we owe you a remote, please give us four weeks to get you a remote before enquiring. If you are in the USA, we are planning on shipping USPS, and that could take a while.

If you [EDIT] are owed a remote and want the (non-PiP) China remote you do not need to let us know since that is the remote we promised. However, if you want the PiP remote, please do let us know by email to the lumagen.com sales email. If you have a unit that will never support PiP (all but 444X models), the China remote is the better option IMO.

Also, most have given us their ship-to address, but if we do not have your ship-to address, email it to our sales email.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> The horse race for Lumagen receiving remotes has heated up. We now have a presumptive winner (but they did have a year head start).
> 
> The "China Remote" has been manufactured and is in the hands of UPS. I am shipping all the remotes by UPS international saver to avoid further delays in shipping. I just got off the phone with UPS and the remotes should be on U.S. soil on May 23rd. I expect they will be delivered to us by the end of May, and maybe as early as the 25th. Fingers crossed the production remotes are as good as the samples.
> 
> The second horse is also off and running. We have paid for and released the "PiP" remote to production. They may be built in the USA with an "overlay" that comes from Korea, or the manufacturer may build in Korea and ship completed remotes. It is their choice. Either way I expect these "PiP" remote to be here in three weeks.
> 
> As discussed, neither of these has a backlight, and they have slightly different buttons. The China remote adds a Save, a Pattern, and a HDR Setup button. The PiP remote does not have these, but does have the PiP/PoP buttons. Both have the new source aspect buttons (1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.40), and the Auto-Aspect enable and disable buttons.
> 
> ====
> 
> I want to thank everyone who participated in our "old-for-new" remote swap. We have also had a number of dealers allow us to ship without a remote in return for us sending one once they arrive. Together these have allowed us to keep up with the huge increase in orders we have experienced over the past six months. Many thanks to everyone who helped us out through this "supply chain" issue.
> 
> If we owe you a remote, please give us four weeks to get you a remote before enquiring. If you are in the USA, we are planning on shipping USPS, and that could take a while.
> 
> If you owed a remote and want the (non-PiP) China remote you do not need to let us know since that is the remote we promised. However, if you want the PiP remote, please do let us know by email to lumagen.com's sales email. If you have a unit that will never support PiP (all but 444X models), the China remote is the better option IMO.
> 
> Also, most have given us their ship-to address, but if we do not have your ship-to address, email it to our sales email.


I hope to see this weekend.


----------



## jrp

Mike_WI said:


> I hope to see this weekend.


Looking forward to doing the demo for you on Sunday. You will be one of the first to see the new remote in person. Should be fun.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> For anyone interested, my new AppleTV4KGen2 arrived today, no issues observed so far with it on the input of the 5348.


Out of curiosity, if you're replacing the previous model, what improvement do you anticipate with the 2nd generation, excluding gaming or the improved remote (which is available for purchase separately)? Thanks!


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Out of curiosity, if you're replacing the previous model, what improvement do you anticipate with the 2nd generation, excluding gaming or the improved remote (which is available for purchase separately)? Thanks!


Mostly for me it was just about geeking out and having the latest in the HT, fear of missing out and all that... hehe.
I think more or less the only thing they've added is better support for 60Hz HDR content.

The SOC processor is "different" - A12 vs A10X. This seems like it may be a mixed blessing - with better CPU performance and perhaps slightly worse GPU performance, and I guess a better video decoder.

There have been some reports that the video output in some modes is a bit more accurate.

It is billed as having HDMI 2.1 but not really any HDMI2.1 features discussed at the moment, and running it into a 5348, that is more of a curiosity than anything else.


----------



## blake

Craig Peer said:


> Lens memory. Plus, they are only 5" apart. I remove my A lens for 16:9. I usually watch scope multiple days in a row, and if I watch 16:9, I'm usually watching that for more than one night. So it's not too big a deal.
> 
> I've been using two screens for close to 17 years now.


Why do you remove Panamorph DCR A-lens for 16:9 content ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## asharma

Hi folks, just playing around with HDR settings...Can anyone tell me what the appropriate settings are in the attached pic? Just testing on my Sony TV, about 8-900 nits available...thanks folks


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> Why do you remove Panamorph DCR A-lens for 16:9 content ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because I watch 16:9 content on a 16:9 screen. And, I have the lens installed so it takes about 5 seconds at most to remove ( it's at eye level ). It's on a custom mount and pops right out. Why would I want to leave it in place?


----------



## asharma

Could someone kindly tell me the type of USB cable I need to update the FW on the 4240? Thanks folks...

Edit: Me thinks it’s a type B, if someone could confirm...thanks

Edit 2: Solved...


----------



## blake

Craig Peer said:


> Because I watch 16:9 content on a 16:9 screen. And, I have the lens installed so it takes about 5 seconds at most to remove ( it's at eye level ). It's on a custom mount and pops right out. Why would I want to leave it in place?


I thought it would be easier for the Lumagen to simply digitally scale, so it fills your 16:9 screen. Eliminate need to fiddle with the lens (or risk dropping/damaging after one too many wines!)


----------



## Craig Peer

blake said:


> I thought it would be easier for the Lumagen to simply digitally scale, so it fills your 16:9 screen. Eliminate need to fiddle with the lens (or risk dropping/damaging after one too many wines!)


No lens = no scaling = best picture quality. For me, it's all about the best picture possible. Easier isn't usually better. And no - I don't switch aspect ratios during an evening, so drinking wine is not a factor.


----------



## ccool96

Craig Peer said:


> No lens = no scaling = best picture quality. For me, it's all about the best picture possible. Easier isn't usually better. And no - I don't switch aspect ratios during an evening, so drinking wine is not a factor.


Then why… No lens = no scaling = best picture quality for scope movie? 

Need enough extra light to sacrifice the above? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Craig Peer

ccool96 said:


> Then why… No lens = no scaling = best picture quality for scope movie?
> 
> Need enough extra light to sacrifice the above?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


With a bigger scope screen, yes, you throw away a bunch of lumens due to black bars with scope. But you know that. So yes - a DCR lens is an improvement with scope films on a scope screen, using the Lumagen to do the scaling, over zooming. Plus I can run my RS4500 in mid laser and still have a very bright picture for HDR using the DCR lens. There is no advantage to scaling to 16:9 through a DCR lens on a 16:9 screen though, when it's as easy in my theater to remove the lens from the light path as it is. Plus, Kris Deering has calibrated my RS4500 for 2.35:1 ( SDR and HDR ) and 16:9 ( SDR and HDR ) to take this all into account. Works for me.


----------



## asharma

Craig Peer said:


> With a bigger scope screen, yes, you throw away a bunch of lumens due to black bars with scope. But you know that. So yes - a DCR lens is an improvement with scope films on a scope screen, using the Lumagen to do the scaling, over zooming. Plus I can run my RS4500 in mid laser and still have a very bright picture for HDR using the DCR lens. There is no advantage to scaling to 16:9 through a DCR lens on a 16:9 screen though, when it's as easy in my theater to remove the lens from the light path as it is. Plus, Kris Deering has calibrated my RS4500 for 2.35:1 ( SDR and HDR ) and 16:9 ( SDR and HDR ) to take this all into account. Works for me.


Cool! Ok, so right now I use the zoom method for my scope screen...I just obtained a Lumagen...R u suggesting I don’t have to use the zoom method any more? If that’s the case how does it work? Thanks


----------



## sfisher64

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *050221- Posted 051321 *
> Added new rs232 status report option, "full v4" which appends the detected input aspect to the report (setting in the menu under _Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup: Report changes_.
> There's also a ZQI24 rs232 query now that corresponds to this new status report.
> The detected aspect can be useful for theaters with masking systems.
> Aspect information is now detected for reporting whether auto aspect is on or off.
> Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings and also now allows negative settings to achieve spatial noise reduction for noisy or over sharpened sources.
> Negative sharpness settings not recommended for quality sources as it will reduce image resolution/detail.
> Fix for an occasional issue requiring power to be unplugged to restart unit after standby.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com_ .
> (this update replaced 042821 & 050121 which was up briefly and had a powerup/down issue on some systems)
> _Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


Is the ZQI24 rs232 query documented somewhere? I couldn't find it here: http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_051320.pdf


----------



## bobof

sfisher64 said:


> Is the ZQI24 rs232 query documented somewhere? I couldn't find it here: http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_051320.pdf


As far as I can see the doc hasn't been updated yet, but I am using the I24 full V4 report in my automation, and from what I can see it is just the V3 report with the currently detected aspect added onto the end of the string (with a leading comma).


----------



## carpantata

I don't know about you, but the Darbee function from *Enhance > Darbee* works badly for me.


From the On field, the up / down arrow does nothing.
From the Gain field I get the On field (For 2d, For 3d, No and Yes).
From the Mode field I get in the Gain field (from 0 to 120).

*Is this so ?????*


----------



## Craig Peer

asharma said:


> Cool! Ok, so right now I use the zoom method for my scope screen...I just obtained a Lumagen...R u suggesting I don’t have to use the zoom method any more? If that’s the case how does it work? Thanks


If you have a DCR lens then no, you don't need to use the zoom method. No A lens = zoom method. 

Amazing how a simple post on how I like to use 2 screens for A: larger 16:9 than I'd get on a scope screen and B: since it's far less expensive a method of getting a " masking screen " than buy an actual electronic masking screen, gets so off track. And it seems removing the A lens for the 16:9 screen is almost a heretical concept! Who knew !


----------



## DenverMDM

Craig Peer said:


> If you have a DCR lens then no, you don't need to use the zoom method. No A lens = zoom method.
> 
> Amazing how a simple post on how I like to use 2 screens for A: larger 16:9 than I'd get on a scope screen and B: since it's far less expensive a method of getting a " masking screen " than buy an actual electronic masking screen, gets so off track. And it seems removing the A lens for the 16:9 screen is almost a heretical concept! Who knew !


Not heretical at all. For me it’s an extra step to a better picture that I honestly relied on the Lumagen to provide. Easy to move the lens and put up the panels. The next step is to automate the masking process that will make it a one button option.


----------



## bjorg

bowlingbeeg said:


> Start playing something at a non 16:9 AR. When the Radiance Pro has determined the AR then select Input->In Configs->4k->4k-0->Sizing->Crop TopLeft then adjust the height of the image on the screen. Get it to the height you want. From there calculate the left amount by taking the number you have for the top value and multiply it bythe AR, 1.78. Do the same thing for the Crop BotRight menu item as well. Just make sure to keep them the same or your picture will be distorted.
> 
> The one annoying thing is that you have to do that for every different resolution and AR. And you have to find content at those resolutions/ARs in order to set it.


Finally got around playing with this. Two follow-up questions: 1) it looks like the Left/Right might already multiplied by the display AR, because adjusting it by 16/9 definitively caused people to look very wide; are you sure it's not proportional already? 2) how many AR modes does the RadiancePro detect? annoyingly, I have to feed it a signal with the source AR to be able to adjust it; so it's been a bit of a guessing game.


----------



## ccool96

Craig Peer said:


> If you have a DCR lens then no, you don't need to use the zoom method. No A lens = zoom method.
> 
> Amazing how a simple post on how I like to use 2 screens for A: larger 16:9 than I'd get on a scope screen and B: since it's far less expensive a method of getting a " masking screen " than buy an actual electronic masking screen, gets so off track. And it seems removing the A lens for the 16:9 screen is almost a heretical concept! Who knew !


I think you misinterpreted my post. I genuinely wondered if you needed the lens, especially with your preference of no lens for 16:9, for extra brightness or because of wanting to run at a lower laser power or for better contrast or what. 

I think what’s getting missed here. For simplicity, most people are not going to want to be manually moving the DCR lens in and out of place. 

My point being, if the image quality and added scaling is good enough for scope, then you are going to have a 16:9 image that’s basically identical. The Lumagen does an exceptional job scaling and most people would prefer the simplicity of instant aspect changes the Lumagen provides when the DCR lens stays in place. 

I have a 4way masking screen because I prefer the Constant Image Area approach where neither format feels inferior to the other. Your dual screen setup is a great way to achieve the same CIA ability and I totally understand your preference for this. 

I look at the DCR lens the same way I look at screens with positive gain. Both to me are problem solvers. If I can achieve the light output I’m looking for with a unity gain screen and no A-lens, then that to me is ideal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

carpantata said:


> I don't know about you, but the Darbee function from *Enhance > Darbee* works badly for me.
> 
> 
> From the On field, the up / down arrow does nothing.
> From the Gain field I get the On field (For 2d, For 3d, No and Yes).
> From the Mode field I get in the Gain field (from 0 to 120).
> 
> *Is this so ?????*


It looks like that menu is broken in the current release. Send Lumagen support an email, they'll likely fix it quickly. [email protected].

In the meantime, if you have the default setup for the remote control, you can press right cursor instead, which brings up a combined sharpening / darbee menu that does seem to work.


----------



## adrake23

bobof said:


> It looks like that menu is broken in the current release. Send Lumagen support an email, they'll likely fix it quickly. [email protected].
> 
> In the meantime, if you have the default setup for the remote control, you can press right cursor instead, which brings up a combined sharpening / darbee menu that does seem to work.


I agree. I’m not just a client, I’m the president. haha










































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

ccool96 said:


> I think you misinterpreted my post. I genuinely wondered if you needed the lens, especially with your preference of no lens for 16:9, for extra brightness or because of wanting to run at a lower laser power or for better contrast or what.
> 
> I think what’s getting missed here. For simplicity, most people are not going to want to be manually moving the DCR lens in and out of place.
> 
> My point being, if the image quality and added scaling is good enough for scope, then you are going to have a 16:9 image that’s basically identical. The Lumagen does an exceptional job scaling and most people would prefer the simplicity of instant aspect changes the Lumagen provides when the DCR lens stays in place.
> 
> I have a 4way masking screen because I prefer the Constant Image Area approach where neither format feels inferior to the other. Your dual screen setup is a great way to achieve the same CIA ability and I totally understand your preference for this.
> 
> I look at the DCR lens the same way I look at screens with positive gain. Both to me are problem solvers. If I can achieve the light output I’m looking for with a unity gain screen and no A-lens, then that to me is ideal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You do lose some resolution watching 16:9 with a DCR lens in place though. Obviously it would be simpler to just leave the lens in place, but that doesn't really bother me.


----------



## bjorg

n00b question, but why is Max Light not simply equal to the actual max light output of the display? Why make it 1x-5x range depending if it's a projector or display?


----------



## jrp

Just had a report that the 050221 release has an issue with the new split Horizontal and Vertical sharpness control causing an issue that was not in the previous release. 

I do not think this is a huge issue, but if you see it either back up a release or turn sharpness down/off.

Patrick is taking a well earned break, but will be back to check on this mid-week.


----------



## bjorg

I'm display is capable of 1,200 nits. I'm using these settings based on some educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless: 

LowRatio: 20
DynPad: 1
Desat: Auto
Global MaxLight: 4000
Thoughts?


----------



## asharma

bjorg said:


> I'm display is capable of 1,200 nits. I'm using these settings based on some educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless:
> 
> LowRatio: 20
> DynPad: 1
> Desat: Auto
> Global MaxLight: 4000
> Thoughts?


What does Low Ratio 20 put your low nits at?


----------



## bjorg

asharma said:


> What does Low Ratio 20 put your low nits at?


Around 2,200, if memory serves. I didn't write it down, but it was close to 2x max nits.


----------



## asharma

bjorg said:


> Around 2,200, if memory serves. I didn't write it down, but it was close to 2x max nits.


I’m playing with the same settings on a Sony 900 nit tv...I “thought” low ratio nits had to be much lower for some reason...why did u chose 20?


----------



## bjorg

asharma said:


> I’m playing with the same settings on a Sony 900 nit tv...I “thought” low ratio nits had to be much lower for some reason...why did u chose 20?


Was reading about it in the Lumagen Radiance Pro Setup & Calibration Tips - 2020-12 doc and it was suggesting using 2x from max nit. At 0, it's definitively a bit dark for my taste. Then again, the Lumagen menu pops up at full brightness, which is not great on the eyes when adjusting brightness!


----------



## MDesigns

bjorg said:


> n00b question, but why is Max Light not simply equal to the actual max light output of the display? Why make it 1x-5x range depending if it's a projector or display?


It has been asked every now and then, with no answer I have seen. It would be more straightforward if you could input real nits and then maybe use a slider for adjusting for display type or preference. I think the tonemapping could benefit from knowing the real nits also, instead of the arbitrary values and factors.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks...

is there a way to do A/B testing comparing the displays internal Tmapping vs the Lumagens? I’m thinking some sort of passthru on the Lumagen where I can freeze a frame and just toggle the Lumagen on and off for A/B testing...thanks folks


----------



## bobof

asharma said:


> Hi folks...
> 
> is there a way to do A/B testing comparing the displays internal Tmapping vs the Lumagens? I’m thinking some sort of passthru on the Lumagen where I can freeze a frame and just toggle the Lumagen on and off for A/B testing...thanks folks


You can set up one memory on the Lumagen for the Lumagen tonemapping, and then another for passthrough. You will need to change at least the REC2020 CMS being used for one of the memory slots to a CMS with passthrough settings.

Then you can press the appropriate MEM button to switch the settings.

Note it won't be seamless as with many setups it will trigger a display resync, and you won't be able to do anything like split screening for comparison - they will be sequential.

There is an example of this(ish) relating to two separate differently calibrated displays here: http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0001_IndependentOutputCalibrations_040412.pdf - what you are trying to do is effectively the same, but with the two "displays" being on the same HDMI port.


----------



## Dominic Chan

asharma said:


> Hi folks...
> 
> is there a way to do A/B testing comparing the displays internal Tmapping vs the Lumagens? I’m thinking some sort of passthru on the Lumagen where I can freeze a frame and just toggle the Lumagen on and off for A/B testing...thanks folks


It’s more than toggling the Lumagen. You also need to toggle the JVC DTM on/off during the comparison.


----------



## fatherom

Also, Lumagen's DTM relies on scene detection, so if you're toggling it on/off, you may not see the correct tonemapping for that frame.


----------



## bobof

Dominic Chan said:


> It’s more than toggling the Lumagen. You also need to toggle the JVC DTM on/off during the comparison.





fatherom said:


> Also, Lumagen's DTM relies on scene detection, so if you're toggling it on/off, you may not see the correct tonemapping for that frame.


Both good points, there's a lot to it, basically...!


----------



## Mike_WI

Had a visit to Jim's Lumagen Home Theater with my brother yesterday.

Really appreciate the hospitality and video demo showing off the new Lumagen capabilities.
I recommend checking it out if you travel near Beaverton, OR and Jim can accommodate you.

Thanks again @jrp !




















If I remember correctly....

Lumagen 5438
12 foot ceilings, dark grey (looks darker in person) paint. LOTR theme
JVC RS4500K projector
Massive, custom built projector shelf
Revel speakers
6 speakers on ceiling 3 pair on sides.
Non perforated Stewart 1.3 screen
Kaleidoscope
Trinnov 16 (? or 32) w/ Trinnov Amps
Sub: Hsu


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> There are some adjustments you need to make for a pure passthrough of HDR but Dolby Vision will not pass through at all. If you want to use Dolby Vision with the flat panel, you'll need to bypass the Lumagen. This is one of the reasons I typically recommend not using a Lumagen with a display like this.


Do you know what gets sent to the Lumagen by the Oppo203 when its HDR setting is on Dolby Vision instead of say, Forced or Auto? The Unofficial FAQ states that for BD and HDR the Dolby Engine is engaged and DV is output. The Oppo does say the controls are limited while DV is engaged. The Lumagen reports HDR/BT2020.


----------



## claw

jqmn said:


> Do you know what gets sent to the Lumagen by the Oppo203 when its HDR setting is on Dolby Vision instead of say, Forced or Auto? The Unofficial FAQ states that for BD and HDR the Dolby Engine is engaged and DV is output. The Oppo does say the controls are limited while DV is engaged. The Lumagen reports HDR/BT2020.


Even with the Oppo configured to Dolby Vision it will not send DV unless it sees a display EDID that reports support for either standard Dolby Vision or for LLDV.

So in your case the Lumagen is correctly reporting HDR10 input.


----------



## chickberger

Yesterday i tried getting a 21:9 custom resultion in Windows 10 (3840x1600) but it didn't worked. One time i got shown a [email protected] but that disappeared later. Anyone got tips on how to achieve this? (card is a Nvidia 3090) I can get it to work with 30hz via a custom resolution but not with 60hz. Is this a bandwidth limitation because i can't set a chroma for a custom resolution?

I want to play in 21:9 but without any NLS.

Thanks!


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> n00b question, but why is Max Light not simply equal to the actual max light output of the display? Why make it 1x-5x range depending if it's a projector or display?


Historical reasons mostly.

The measured maximum light output for a projector is used to set the "Low Ratio" such that dark scenes are optimal (The "L" values when the Low Ratio is selected in the "Left Arrow Menu." For a projector you should set Low Ratio so that the "Dark Scene Max Light" is 1 to 1.5 times the measured brightness (for a projector). The 4 to 5 times ratio for Max Light for projectors is to allow roll off for scenes that would otherwise clip if 1X measured light was used. It allows for "Grading" the image to be optimal on your projector.

I will talk about settings for a TV in my next post.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> I'm display is capable of 1,200 nits. I'm using these settings based on some educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless:
> 
> LowRatio: 20
> DynPad: 1
> Desat: Auto
> Global MaxLight: 4000
> Thoughts?


For a 1200 nit TV I would set Global Max Light = 2000 to maybe 2500.

The Low Ratio should then be set while viewing a very dark scene (The Revenant where the trappers son is by a tree in twilight for example, or in the house in the "retiring the farmer" scene in BR2049). For the Revenant scene the max brightness in the scene is about 7 nits, and so it is supposed to be very dark and not look like "day time." You should see the detail in the tree bark and the son's shirt. I would think the default of 31 is the best starting point.

Dyn pad of 1 may be fine given a setting of 2000 for Max Light. Might also try 2 or 3.

DeSat = Auto gives the closet to "Studio Reference."

=========

You should test with bright content (such as "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45), and very dark content to confirm (such as the Revenant scene). Season to taste.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> For a 1200 nit TV I would set Global Max Light = 2000 to maybe 2500.
> 
> The Low Ratio should then be set while viewing a very dark scene (The Revenant where the trappers son is by a tree in twilight for example, or in the house in the "retiring the farmer" scene in BR2049). For the Revenant scene the max brightness in the scene is about 7 nits, and so it is supposed to be very dark and not look like "day time." You should see the detail in the tree bark and the son's shirt. I would think the default of 31 is the best starting point.
> 
> Dyn pad of 1 may be fine given a setting of 2000 for Max Light. Might also try 2 or 3.
> 
> DeSat = Auto gives the closet to "Studio Reference."
> 
> =========
> 
> You should test with bright content (such as "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45), and very dark content to confirm (such as the Revenant scene). Season to taste.


Many thanks for the detailed advice! I will try these settings out and report back on my preferred values.


----------



## Sittler27

Haven't updated my Radiance Pro 4242 since December 2020 and wondering if there have been any firmware updates since then that upgrade the video processing performance of the unit?


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen

*051021- Posted 052521 *
Fixed an issue in 050221 with auto aspect triggering with image when set to hdmi. 
Fix for darbee menu in 050221. 
Fix for 050221 autoaspect menu when setting multiple mems or inputs. 
Fix for 050221 vertical sharpening not being used unless horizontal was non zero. 
Updated rs232 command for sharpen (ZY522) to handle separate v,h. 
Added rs232 command ZY551 to set gamemode. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


Prior FW (for reference):

*050221- Posted 051321 *
Added new rs232 status report option, "full v4" which appends the detected input aspect to the report (setting in the menu under Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup: Report changes. 
There's also a ZQI24 rs232 query now that corresponds to this new status report. 
The detected aspect can be useful for theaters with masking systems. 
Aspect information is now detected for reporting whether auto aspect is on or off. 
Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings and also now allows negative settings to achieve spatial noise reduction for noisy or over sharpened sources. 
Negative sharpness settings not recommended for quality sources as it will reduce image resolution/detail. 
Fix for an occasional issue requiring power to be unplugged to restart unit after standby. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] . 
(this update replaced 042821 & 050121 which was up briefly and had a powerup/down issue on some systems)
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> For a 1200 nit TV I would set Global Max Light = 2000 to maybe 2500.
> 
> The Low Ratio should then be set while viewing a very dark scene (The Revenant where the trappers son is by a tree in twilight for example, or in the house in the "retiring the farmer" scene in BR2049). For the Revenant scene the max brightness in the scene is about 7 nits, and so it is supposed to be very dark and not look like "day time." You should see the detail in the tree bark and the son's shirt. I would think the default of 31 is the best starting point.
> 
> Dyn pad of 1 may be fine given a setting of 2000 for Max Light. Might also try 2 or 3.
> 
> DeSat = Auto gives the closet to "Studio Reference."
> 
> =========
> 
> You should test with bright content (such as "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:08:45), and very dark content to confirm (such as the Revenant scene). Season to taste.


So, I created a Kaleidescape script that cycles repeatedly through 3 scenes from _The Revenant_, _Blade Runner 2049_, and _The Meg_. Unfortunately, I can't attach it here.

As far as I can tell, the display is brightest in _The Meg_ when I set MaxLight to 1,000. As soon as I go higher, the display becomes less bright. Ditto for going lower.

Setting LowRatio to 31 shows a lot of shadow detail, almost too much. More importantly, the forced subtitles in _The Revenant_ scene become way too bright. Setting LowRatio to 0 fixes the subtitle issue, but it comes at the expense of hiding a lot of shadow detail. Some of them are still there, but I had to really focus on the area and kind of ignore the bright scenes. _Blade Runner 2049_ is a good test for that, because it's both bright and dark at the same time.

Eventually, I arrived at a LowRatio of 24 where I can still see the details behind Ryan Gosling, but Dave Bautista face doesn't look like he's directly hit by spotlight. At that level, it's still brighter than it should be. It looks more natural when reducing LowRatio, but then too much shadow detail seems to get lost.

I'm curious to understand why MaxLight 1,000 resulted in the brightest picture. And boy, is _The Meg_ scene bright. It's almost eye watering! 😵

Current settings:

LowRatio: 24
DynPad: 1
Desat: Auto
MaxLight: 1000


----------



## bjorg

The other problem I now have is with SDR material. It's really bright! I lowered the white level in the SDR CMS to compensate a bit, but was wondering if there is a better way.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> The other problem I now have is with SDR material. It's really bright! I lowered the white level in the SDR CMS to compensate a bit, but was wondering if there is a better way.


How have you got this set up? Are you using the same picture mode in the display for SDR and HDR content? Are you 3DLUT calibrating yourself?
If you are using it like that, then you could generate 2 separate 3DLUTs, one which has the output capped at a sensible SDR level of luminance.

Personally though I believe it is best where there is a significant different in light levels required, that the display limit the brightness via a different picture mode and whatever methods it has internally of controlling brightness, and then you don't have to limit the output range used by the Radiance, which means you get to use all the dynamic range of the HDMI output between the Radiance and the display, and in the case of projection systems you maximise the contrast in SDR. Each display mode then has its own 3DLUT.

I have my projection setup this way. The Radiance sends out a status message each time the input format changes, and I can use that status message via a basic Raspberry Pi based control system to send messages to the display, putting it into a different mode automatically, with the Radiance also switching to a different CMS.

Appreciate though the giant LED display may not even have different modes, in which case, the separate 3DLUTs would get my vote.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> How have you got this set up? Are you using the same picture mode in the display for SDR and HDR content? Are you 3DLUT calibrating yourself?
> If you are using it like that, then you could generate 2 separate 3DLUTs, one which has the output capped at a sensible SDR level of luminance.
> 
> Personally though I believe it is best where there is a significant different in light levels required, that the display limit the brightness via a different picture mode and whatever methods it has internally of controlling brightness, and then you don't have to limit the output range used by the Radiance, which means you get to use all the dynamic range of the HDMI output between the Radiance and the display, and in the case of projection systems you maximise the contrast in SDR. Each display mode then has its own 3DLUT.
> 
> I have my projection setup this way. The Radiance sends out a status message each time the input format changes, and I can use that status message via a basic Raspberry Pi based control system to send messages to the display, putting it into a different mode automatically, with the Radiance also switching to a different CMS.
> 
> Appreciate though the giant LED display may not even have different modes, in which case, the separate 3DLUTs would get my vote.


I haven't done anything with the 3DLUT. This is just basic stuff I'm doing until Kris Deering is able to travel again and can help me get this properly calibrated. In the meantime, I'm playing around with it and learning.

The Sony controller does have different modes. I also have a RasberryPi connected to the Lumagen so I can hack on my little web app for it. I need to switch modes anyway when 3D input is detected. So maybe I can use full light output for HDR content and then go down low light output for SDR.


----------



## Sittler27

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> *051021- Posted 052521 *
> Fixed an issue in 050221 with auto aspect triggering with image when set to hdmi.
> Fix for darbee menu in 050221.
> Fix for 050221 autoaspect menu when setting multiple mems or inputs.
> Fix for 050221 vertical sharpening not being used unless horizontal was non zero.
> Updated rs232 command for sharpen (ZY522) to handle separate v,h.
> Added rs232 command ZY551 to set gamemode.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.
> 
> 
> Prior FW (for reference):
> 
> *050221- Posted 051321 *
> Added new rs232 status report option, "full v4" which appends the detected input aspect to the report (setting in the menu under Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup: Report changes.
> There's also a ZQI24 rs232 query now that corresponds to this new status report.
> The detected aspect can be useful for theaters with masking systems.
> Aspect information is now detected for reporting whether auto aspect is on or off.
> Separated sharpness into vertical and horizontal settings and also now allows negative settings to achieve spatial noise reduction for noisy or over sharpened sources.
> Negative sharpness settings not recommended for quality sources as it will reduce image resolution/detail.
> Fix for an occasional issue requiring power to be unplugged to restart unit after standby.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
> (this update replaced 042821 & 050121 which was up briefly and had a powerup/down issue on some systems)
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


Thanks for this. So using my trusty decipher, I surmise there isn't anything here that upgraded the capabilities of the RP to present a better quality image?


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks for this. So using my trusty decipher, I surmise there isn't anything here that upgraded the capabilities of the RP to present a better quality image?


Guess it depends on which build you updated to, when in December - one added sharpening and some DTM improvements (version *121120) *. Other than that I think there's been a few tweaks to things many might not notice (eg a missing row of pixels on right hand edge, etc), some bugfixes, and recently the ability to sharpen just H or just V, which might be an improvement depending on content?


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I haven't done anything with the 3DLUT. This is just basic stuff I'm doing until Kris Deering is able to travel again and can help me get this properly calibrated. In the meantime, I'm playing around with it and learning.
> 
> The Sony controller does have different modes. I also have a RasberryPi connected to the Lumagen so I can hack on my little web app for it. I need to switch modes anyway when 3D input is detected. So maybe I can use full light output for HDR content and then go down low light output for SDR.


I think that's what I'd recommend. It's easy to enable the status reports over serial and just grab the field which tells you if the source is HDR or SDR or 3D - which is what I use to work out which mode to select.

Sounds like an impressive display. I imagine at that size and brightness you could almost get a suntan off it!


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> I think that's what I'd recommend. It's easy to enable the status reports over serial and just grab the field which tells you if the source is HDR or SDR or 3D - which is what I use to work out which mode to select.
> 
> Sounds like an impressive display. I imagine at that size and brightness you could almost get a suntan off it!


Honestly, it brings joy I cannot describe. You have to witness it for yourself. It's like living in the future. Then again, I love emissive devices, which is not to everyone's taste. If it weren't for Peter "Cineramax", I don't believe I would achieved this outcome. In my personal opinion, he's the mad scientist/visionary of our community and I miss his voice on this forum.

And, to keep things on topic, the fact that the _Lumagen RadiancePro_ can convert a 3D frame-packed Blu-Ray signal to a frame-sequential 3D 4K signal (not resolution!) just shows how amazingly flexible this product is. The C-LED controller does not do scaling, which means a HD signal uses 1920x1080 pixels. A fraction of the available surface area. Jim showed me how to change the output signal to make it look 4K so it would stretch over the available area. Really freaking cool stuff! My RadiancePro also has a custom 3D sync signal port for the active 3D glasses. I know, active 3D is a far cry from passive, but it's better than nothing.


----------



## jrp

WE HAVE REMOTES!

These are the non-PiP remotes from China if have posted on before. I checked one out and, as expected, it works correctly, and looks very nice. Okay, no backlight, but I have already discussed why.

=========== 

We will start the process of sending out remotes to those we owe them to in the next couple days. We plan to ship USPS "first class" in the U.S. and so it could take a while for them to arrive at their US destinations. In other countries, we will be sending to the appropriate distributor (with a couple exceptions that will go direct to the customers). This includes anyone who accepted a new unit without a remote, all 5348 owners, and those of you who sent in a "Old-for-New" remote.

Those of you who got a B-Stock remote in place of the new remote for the 5348's, once you have the new remote, we would like you to send in the old remote, if you are willing. Just USPS them to the Lumagen address on our website. Not required, but a request as we would like a few of the old remotes around.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> And, to keep things on topic, the fact that the _Lumagen RadiancePro_ can convert a 3D frame-packed Blu-Ray signal to a frame-sequential 3D 4K signal (not resolution!) just shows how amazingly flexible this product is. The C-LED controller does not do scaling, which means a HD signal uses 1920x1080 pixels. A fraction of the available surface area. Jim showed me how to change the output signal to make it look 4K so it would stretch over the available area. Really freaking cool stuff! My RadiancePro also has a custom 3D sync signal port for the active 3D glasses. I know, active 3D is a far cry from passive, but it's better than nothing.


3D with that brightness at that size must be amazing.
We're very lucky to have such a versatile product at our fingertips, with a team behind it that really do go the extra mile.


----------



## asharma

bjorg said:


> Honestly, it brings joy I cannot describe. You have to witness it for yourself. It's like living in the future. Then again, I love emissive devices, which is not to everyone's taste. If it weren't for Peter "Cineramax", I don't believe I would achieved this outcome. In my personal opinion, he's the mad scientist/visionary of our community and I miss his voice on this forum.
> 
> And, to keep things on topic, the fact that the _Lumagen RadiancePro_ can convert a 3D frame-packed Blu-Ray signal to a frame-sequential 3D 4K signal (not resolution!) just shows how amazingly flexible this product is. The C-LED controller does not do scaling, which means a HD signal uses 1920x1080 pixels. A fraction of the available surface area. Jim showed me how to change the output signal to make it look 4K so it would stretch over the available area. Really freaking cool stuff! My RadiancePro also has a custom 3D sync signal port for the active 3D glasses. I know, active 3D is a far cry from passive, but it's better than nothing.


What settings did u end up with for Low Ratio, DynPad, and MaxLight?


----------



## bjorg

asharma said:


> What settings did u end up with for Low Ratio, DynPad, and MaxLight?


This is what I'm currently using:
(55) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 595 | AVS Forum


----------



## asharma

bjorg said:


> This is what I'm currently using:
> (55) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 595 | AVS Forum


Thanks, were you able to get an answer on why maxlight is only 1000 on a 1200 nit tv?


----------



## sunnya23

bobof said:


> How have you got this set up? Are you using the same picture mode in the display for SDR and HDR content? Are you 3DLUT calibrating yourself?
> If you are using it like that, then you could generate 2 separate 3DLUTs, one which has the output capped at a sensible SDR level of luminance.
> 
> Personally though I believe it is best where there is a significant different in light levels required, that the display limit the brightness via a different picture mode and whatever methods it has internally of controlling brightness, and then you don't have to limit the output range used by the Radiance, which means you get to use all the dynamic range of the HDMI output between the Radiance and the display, and in the case of projection systems you maximise the contrast in SDR. Each display mode then has its own 3DLUT.
> 
> I have my projection setup this way. The Radiance sends out a status message each time the input format changes, and I can use that status message via a basic Raspberry Pi based control system to send messages to the display, putting it into a different mode automatically, with the Radiance also switching to a different CMS.
> 
> Appreciate though the giant LED display may not even have different modes, in which case, the separate 3DLUTs would get my vote.


This is also how my system is set up, albeit with a Crestron control system in place. Two different picture modes, with HDR running at full laser output, and SDR running at 40 percent laser output.


----------



## MDesigns

bjorg said:


> So, I created a Kaleidescape script that cycles repeatedly through 3 scenes from _The Revenant_, _Blade Runner 2049_, and _The Meg_. Unfortunately, I can't attach it here.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the display is brightest in _The Meg_ when I set MaxLight to 1,000. As soon as I go higher, the display becomes less bright. Ditto for going lower.
> 
> *I'm curious to understand why MaxLight 1,000 resulted in the brightest picture.* And boy, is _The Meg_ scene bright. It's almost eye watering! 😵


I was thinking about this and this is what I think is happening.

HDR is encoded with absolute values and the tonemapping is needed to compress it enough to fit smaller range/brightness displays. With brighter displays you need less and less compression. With the 1000 nits MaxLight setting you have probably reached the limit where Lumagen doesn't need to compress the tested scenes at all. So if you had an even brighter display and setting maxlight correctly higher the scenes would not look brighter at all, it would look the same. Setting MaxLight higher with display brightness staying the same makes the image less bright as expected.

Lowering the MaxLight from 1000 making the image less bright is interesting, but I guess also expected. The "sdr range" of the image has to be compressed to leave room for the highlights, so I guess with truly bright displays it manifests like this(?).

Currently your 1000nits MaxLight setting is probably too small though and that makes the content to be brighter than it's encoded. Brightest doesn't mean that the setting is correct. Here a possibility to input a true nits value of the display would imo take out a lot of the guess work. No low ratios etc. should be needed because 1000nits+ displays can display the first few hundred nits as encoded to the content nit by nit or actually many of the movies with no tone mapping at all.


----------



## bjorg

MDesigns said:


> I was thinking about this and this is what I think is happening.
> 
> HDR is encoded with absolute values and the tonemapping is needed to compress it enough to fit smaller range/brightness displays. With brighter displays you need less and less compression. With the 1000 nits MaxLight setting you have probably reached the limit where Lumagen doesn't need to compress the tested scenes at all. So if you had an even brighter display and setting maxlight correctly higher the scenes would not look brighter at all, it would look the same. Setting MaxLight higher with display brightness staying the same makes the image less bright as expected.
> 
> Lowering the MaxLight from 1000 making the image less bright is interesting, but I guess also expected. The "sdr range" of the image has to be compressed to leave room for the highlights, so I guess with truly bright displays it manifests like this(?).
> 
> Currently your 1000nits MaxLight setting is probably too small though and that makes the content to be brighter than it's encoded. Brightest doesn't mean that the setting is correct. Here a possibility to input a true nits value of the display would imo take out a lot of the guess work. No low ratios etc. should be needed because 1000nits+ displays can display the first few hundred nits as encoded to the content nit by nit or actually many of the movies with no tone mapping at all.


That makes a lot of sense!

I uploaded my script to the Kaleidescape owner forum since I couldn't attach it here.

For brightness, I used a scene from _The Meg _that was suggested by Jim. If you know of any additional Kaleidescape content to test, please suggest it and I will amend the script.


----------



## MOberhardt

bjorg said:


> That makes a lot of sense!
> 
> I uploaded my script to the Kaleidescape owner forum since I couldn't attach it here.
> 
> For brightness, I used a scene from _The Meg _that was suggested by Jim. If you know of any additional Kaleidescape content to test, please suggest it and I will amend the script.


Which scene timestamp from The Meg? I know that is one of those disks with bad metadata. I haven't rewatched since I got my Lumagen though.


----------



## fatherom

MOberhardt said:


> Which scene timestamp from The Meg? I know that is one of those disks with bad metadata. I haven't rewatched since I got my Lumagen though.











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hmm, I'm running into an odd issue. When I connect the USB cable, I cannot create a backup of my Radiance Pro. I tried all ports explicitly (although I know to check Device Manager) and even tried lower baud rates. Every time I got an error message. Note, I'm running Windows 10. Making matters...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Bubblehead00

What kind of temperatures do you all see on your Lumagens for chip temp? I’m seeing upper 80s to lower 90s C, and that strikes me as a bit too hot.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I don’t see mine going over 72c. It’s not in a cabinet though and has plenty of ventilation.


----------



## bobof

Bubblehead00 said:


> What kind of temperatures do you all see on your Lumagens for chip temp? I’m seeing upper 80s to lower 90s C, and that strikes me as a bit too hot.


The manual says in relation to the fan control temperature;
"Temperatures up to 94C can be selected, and for most systems work fine, but system speed is rated at 85C."
It seems like if you want to know for sure that you're operating within the speed rating, that you would want perhaps to reduce the temp a bit, though it sounds like many units would work fine at that temperature. Lumagen support could probably advise more on the downside you may or may not see.

Running anything at the very hottest end of spec has dangers - one example being a small increase in ambient temperature from warm summer days taking units over their limits. I've seen this a bunch of times in marginal rack installations of some equipment I am involved in the design & manufacture of - works fine until it shuts down in August.

If this is a 1U box, which is the one I have most experience with, bear in mind the intake is bottom and exhaust is top, so you really need good clearance top and bottom, a cool air intake, along with airflow exchanging the air in the rack / cabinet. The fan in the 1U is located in the bottom of the unit, and pulling air in through the bottom and then pushes air out of the top - there are some baffles to help direct the air over the FPGA heatsink. The air doesn't exit the top of the unit with much speed, which can mean it accumulates around the top of the unit in a cabinet. If this is a factor in your install, then if you can clear away the otherwise relatively static warm air above the unit then your temperatures should drop. There are commercial products on the market that can help with that, such as those made by AC Infinity, or you can DIY something.


----------



## woofer

bobof said:


> The manual says in relation to the fan control temperature;
> "Temperatures up to 94C can be selected, and for most systems work fine, but system speed is rated at 85C."
> It seems like if you want to know for sure that you're operating within the speed rating, that you would want perhaps to reduce the temp a bit, though it sounds like many units would work fine at that temperature. Lumagen support could probably advise more on the downside you may or may not see.
> 
> Running anything at the very hottest end of spec has dangers - one example being a small increase in ambient temperature from warm summer days taking units over their limits. I've seen this a bunch of times in marginal rack installations of some equipment I am involved in the design & manufacture of - works fine until it shuts down in August.
> 
> If this is a 1U box, which is the one I have most experience with, bear in mind the intake is bottom and exhaust is top, so you really need good clearance top and bottom, a cool air intake, along with airflow exchanging the air in the rack / cabinet. The fan in the 1U is located in the bottom of the unit, and pulling air in through the bottom and then pushes air out of the top - there are some baffles to help direct the air over the FPGA heatsink. The air doesn't exit the top of the unit with much speed, which can mean it accumulates around the top of the unit in a cabinet. If this is a factor in your install, then if you can clear away the otherwise relatively static warm air above the unit then your temperatures should drop. There are commercial products on the market that can help with that, such as those made by AC Infinity, or you can DIY something.


My old 4242 used to run around 68-70c , i have noticed my 5348 runs around the 52-54c mark...much much cooler ...


----------



## 187crew003

My old 4446 (2RU) ran at 90c my new 4244 runs at 45C


----------



## Bubblehead00

Thanks all for the helpful replies. Yes, the unit I have is a 4242. I checked that the intake fan was in good condition (and it seems to be), so I did go ahead and purchase an AC Infinity fan to try to boost the airflow out of the top. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## bobof

Bubblehead00 said:


> Thanks all for the helpful replies. Yes, the unit I have is a 4242. I checked that the intake fan was in good condition (and it seems to be), so I did go ahead and purchase an AC Infinity fan to try to boost the airflow out of the top. We'll see how that goes.


Do let us know the before and after, it will be useful info for folk I'm sure.


----------



## jrp

Bubblehead00 said:


> What kind of temperatures do you all see on your Lumagen for chip temp? I’m seeing upper 80s to lower 90s C, and that strikes me as a bit too hot.


If you have the target set to 84C for the FPGA "Chip" (the default) and it gets above 84C, either there is an issue with the fan, or you have blocked some of the air vents, or the inlet air is too hot.

For 1U Radiance Pro, the inlet vent is on the bottom and must have free access to cool air. The outlet vents are on the top and must be clear of obstruction. For the past couple years 1U units have also had additional vents on the back. While these were not required I added them to reduce the static air pressure in the unit to allow the fan to run at a slower speed.

If you have the Radiance Pro 1U model in a rack Lumagen recommends a 1U gap below and above for airflow. Do not put the Radiance Pro over something that generates a lot of heat, such as a power amp. Also, do not put the Lumagen in a closed cabinet that does not have adequate airflow.

For 2U units both the inlet and outlet vents are on the back.

=====

If you have clear airflow below, behind, and above the Radiance Pro, and you still see the "Chip" temperature above 80C, then there is an issue with the fan. Some older 424X units and all 444X units must have the fan type programmed as part of our manufacturing process. There is a chance we didn't get this done with your unit. If you contact the lumagen.com support email, we can help you figure this out.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> If you have the Radiance Pro 1U model in a rack Lumagen recommends a 1U gap below and above for airflow.


Jim,

Can you elaborate on this recommendation? I don't see anything in the manual about it. This is the first I've ever heard that there should be a gap below the unit.

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Jim,
> 
> Can you elaborate on this recommendation? I don't see anything in the manual about it. This is the first I've ever heard that there should be a gap below the unit.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


We do have a "Warnings" section at the front of the manual that says:

*WARNINGS:*​
*Do not defeat the safety features of the power supply or power cord, such as, but not limited to, removing the ground pin connection.

Do not open, insert objects into, or spill liquid into, this equipment.

Do not block the* *cooling vents, and make sure there is adequate cooling around unit.*


We do not have specifics for racks in the manual but here is some additional info:

The inlet vent for the 1U units is on the bottom and needs a good supply of cool air. This means you need to not mount it directly above another piece of kit in the rack. Also make sure to not mount it above something (even with a space) that produces a lot of heat (such as a power amp).

The air exit vent is on the top, and so we recommend a space above the unit in the rack as well to be in line with the warning above. However, if you have a 1U unit that has an array of vent holes in the back (should be every unit sold in the last couple years), you can put a piece of kit right about the Pro and the rear vents will be enough to provide adequate cooling, although the fan will run faster.

=====

If the radiance Pro is on a shelf, there needs to be adequate cool air that can get to the inlet vents on the bottom, and nothing blocking the vents at the top of the unit. For example do not put a streamer with the 1/8" high rubber feet over the Pro outlet vent. You should not put the Pro in an enclosed cabinet without making sure you have adequate venting to allow cool air into the Pro inlet vent on he bottom, and a place for the exit air to easily leave the cabinet.


----------



## audvid

How do I back up the Lumagen 4444+ settings. I downloaded this
*Radiance Configuration utility Version 1.90 for all Radiance video processors (now supports new RadiancePro )*
[DOWNLOAD]
I connected the lumagen to windows 10 pc via usb port.
How ever, the utility is asking for a com port number. 
Please advise. 
thanks.


----------



## asharma

audvid said:


> How do I back up the Lumagen 4444+ settings. I downloaded this
> *Radiance Configuration utility Version 1.90 for all Radiance video processors (now supports new RadiancePro )*
> [DOWNLOAD]
> I connected the lumagen to windows 10 pc via usb port.
> How ever, the utility is asking for a com port number.
> Please advise.
> thanks.


You can look in your device mgr in the Control panel and see what com port the Lumagen is using...


----------



## audvid

asharma said:


> You can look in your device mgr in the Control panel and see what com port the Lumagen is using...


It worked! Thanks a lot!🙏


----------



## Clark Burk

I've never used the configuration utility but finding the com port number is the same as doing a firmware update. 
Make sure the Lumagen is turned on and connected by USB to your computer and hit the windows key > type "Control Panel" in the search box > select "Device Manager" > Look down the list and select " Ports(Com & LPT)" > look for the com port the Lumagen is connected to.


----------



## Clark Burk

asharma you beat me to it so my question is how do you delete your own post in AVS? It looks like its changed.


----------



## asharma

Clark Burk said:


> asharma you beat me to it so my question is how do you delete your own post in AVS? It looks like its changed.


I “think” all u can do is to Edit and replace text with the word ”Deleted”...Personally I would just leave it as it is more detailed than my answer...


----------



## Clark Burk

Ok Thanks


----------



## SSnarski

Why so hard to just get apple 4k tv to play through lumagen to projector RS4500 lum 4242 dcr lens
Also lumagen won’t display menu on pana 9000 but plays movie when playing fine

Can’t even get onscreen menu from apple 4k tv to even set up settings


----------



## SSnarski

Going to try full update on lumagen pro 4242 to see if i an get the 4k apple tv newest version to display anything any suggestions would be great


----------



## Karl Maga

SSnarski said:


> Why so hard to just get apple 4k tv to play through lumagen to projector RS4500 lum 4242 dcr lens
> Also lumagen won’t display menu on pana 9000 but plays movie when playing fine
> 
> Can’t even get onscreen menu from apple 4k tv to even set up settings


This isn't a suggestion of how to resolve your issue, but please know that I have always been able to see setup menus from my apple 4k tv to my NX7/Lumagen Radiance Pro/DCR Lens. I just looked at the ATV4K settings last night, as a matter of fact. Hopefully one of the more technical folks can suggest a config tweak that will resolve your issue.


----------



## MDesigns

SSnarski said:


> Why so hard to just get apple 4k tv to play through lumagen to projector RS4500 lum 4242 dcr lens
> Also lumagen won’t display menu on pana 9000 but plays movie when playing fine
> 
> Can’t even get onscreen menu from apple 4k tv to even set up settings


Sounds like hdmi cable issue. Get certified or recommended cables.


----------



## SSnarski

Never an issue running 4k anything from pana 9000 same cord going to apple 4k


----------



## SSnarski

Could be that one end of my celerity powered fi-optic connector stopped working might have to order one the “T” end at projector will try and order one next week see what happens


----------



## Kris Deering

I found the problem when you said “Celerity”


----------



## CP850-CLED

I replaced my AppleTV for the new one, thru the sp directly to a tv, and it takes quite a while to get a sync. Could be the new unit needing an upgrade.


----------



## jwort93

I'm considering getting a Radiance Pro to pair with my LG C9 77" OLED and Kaleidescape Strato/Alto, mainly because I think the dynamic tone mapping built in the LG C9 is less than ideal, brightening some scenes unnecessarily when they otherwise wouldn't clip the display, and darkening the overall scene level of scenes with extremely bright highlights too much. I'd also like to take advantage of the improved de-interlacing/upscaling in the Radiance Pro for SD/HD content, both from the Strato/Alto, and my Panasonic UB9000 for normal blu-ray and dvd content. The built in co-star switching capabilities seem nice too.

I have a few questions about the dynamic tone mapping on the Radiance Pro, when used with LG OLEDs though. I've read through a fair portion of the thread here but still have a few things I'm not sure about with regards to it.

My understanding is currently as follows:

LG OLEDs can only reach their peak brightness if the signal being sent is an HDR signal, an SDR wrapped signal limits it to around ~450 nits
The Radiance Pro by default outputs it's dynamic tone-mapped material in an SDR2020 signal, which isn't an issue with most projectors, but would limit the max brightness on an LG OLED.
The Radiance Pro can output the dynamic tone mapped content in an HDR signal, but that's not ideal as it can result it double tone mapping on some displays.
First, I wanted to make sure all of that understanding was correct?

Second, I know with the Device Control software and/or Calman, you can upload custom HDR tone curves to LG TVs. I was thinking that if you use that functionality to properly set the display's max nits value, and then set the various roll off points to 100% for all the different HDR thresholds, which to my understanding would effectively make HDR10 content follow the normal HDR curve exactly and hard clip up to the displays capability, then if you enable SDH2020 on the Lumagen, as opposed to SDR2020, you would get the TV to correctly switch to HDR mode allowing max brightness, while disabling all extraneous tone mapping within the LG TV, making it so the Lumagen is performing all of the tone mapping. Is this thought process correct for what I am trying to accomplish, am I missing anything or any downsides?

Lastly, I was curious about the Lumagen's ability to adjust the black level on a per-input basis. Say I have a device that is outputting a slightly raised black level, I.E. it's outputting a signal that should be black at a value of 17, instead of the expected 16 for a limited range SDR signal. How precise can the Lumagen adjust the signal with the black-level input control? Is it more precise than the brightness settings on a TV? I ask because while lowering the brightness on the LG TV to 49, instead of 50 resolves the slightly raised black levels, it also crushes more detail that just that 1-bit worth of shift in the output.


----------



## SSnarski

Kris Deering said:


> I found the problem when you said “Celerity”


So what other options when running over 50’ from lumagen to projector have used this cable for dolby vision to oled to projector in theater room had this cable maybe 4 years never an issue till just now apparently


----------



## CP850-CLED

I can definitely say HDMI has issues on the new AppleTV that weren't there before. Even on Tidal, some albums will play, and others give you a very long dark screen with no sounds then kick back to the previous menu.


----------



## Kris Deering

SSnarski said:


> So what other options when running over 50’ from lumagen to projector have used this cable for dolby vision to oled to projector in theater room had this cable maybe 4 years never an issue till just now apparently


I can't think of a single client that hasn't had issues when they try using a Celerity cable with a Lumagen. I know this cable was recommended for a lot of people by JVC back in the day, but they are known for having issues with Lumagen. For a 50' HDMI fiber cable I'd recommend the Slim Run AV from Monoprice with the silver ends. Works for every setup I've recommended to date and is what I use for testing and in my own setup. 

SlimRun AV HDMI Cable


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> I can't think of a single client that hasn't had issues when they try using a Celerity cable with a Lumagen. I know this cable was recommended for a lot of people by JVC back in the day, but they are known for having issues with Lumagen. For a 50' HDMI fiber cable I'd recommend the Slim Run AV from Monoprice with the silver ends. Works for every setup I've recommended to date and is what I use for testing and in my own setup.
> 
> SlimRun AV HDMI Cable


That’s the cable I use (50ft) without any issues for over 2-years.


----------



## bobof

jwort93 said:


> I'm considering getting a Radiance Pro to pair with my LG C9 77" OLED and Kaleidescape Strato/Alto, mainly because I think the dynamic tone mapping built in the LG C9 is less than ideal, brightening some scenes unnecessarily when they otherwise wouldn't clip the display, and darkening the overall scene level of scenes with extremely bright highlights too much. I'd also like to take advantage of the improved de-interlacing/upscaling in the Radiance Pro for SD/HD content, both from the Strato/Alto, and my Panasonic UB9000 for normal blu-ray and dvd content. The built in co-star switching capabilities seem nice too.
> 
> I have a few questions about the dynamic tone mapping on the Radiance Pro, when used with LG OLEDs though. I've read through a fair portion of the thread here but still have a few things I'm not sure about with regards to it.
> 
> My understanding is currently as follows:
> 
> LG OLEDs can only reach their peak brightness if the signal being sent is an HDR signal, an SDR wrapped signal limits it to around ~450 nits
> The Radiance Pro by default outputs it's dynamic tone-mapped material in an SDR2020 signal, which isn't an issue with most projectors, but would limit the max brightness on an LG OLED.
> The Radiance Pro can output the dynamic tone mapped content in an HDR signal, but that's not ideal as it can result it double tone mapping on some displays.
> First, I wanted to make sure all of that understanding was correct?
> 
> Second, I know with the Device Control software and/or Calman, you can upload custom HDR tone curves to LG TVs. I was thinking that if you use that functionality to properly set the display's max nits value, and then set the various roll off points to 100% for all the different HDR thresholds, which to my understanding would effectively make HDR10 content follow the normal HDR curve exactly and hard clip up to the displays capability, then if you enable SDH2020 on the Lumagen, as opposed to SDR2020, you would get the TV to correctly switch to HDR mode allowing max brightness, while disabling all extraneous tone mapping within the LG TV, making it so the Lumagen is performing all of the tone mapping. Is this thought process correct for what I am trying to accomplish, am I missing anything or any downsides?
> 
> Lastly, I was curious about the Lumagen's ability to adjust the black level on a per-input basis. Say I have a device that is outputting a slightly raised black level, I.E. it's outputting a signal that should be black at a value of 17, instead of the expected 16 for a limited range SDR signal. How precise can the Lumagen adjust the signal with the black-level input control? Is it more precise than the brightness settings on a TV? I ask because while lowering the brightness on the LG TV to 49, instead of 50 resolves the slightly raised black levels, it also crushes more detail that just that 1-bit worth of shift in the output.


I don't have an OLED, but have a fair bit of experience of some of the panel behaviours (I came up with the patch sorting algorithm to remove panel drift during profiling, see sig). 

Bear in mind that you only actually have large ~P3 gamut up to around 400nits; above that the white subpixel will start to dominate bright, saturated colours and so will start to desaturate bright, colourful scenes.
This might mean there are actually reasons to consider limiting brightness to below full panel brightness - particularly if you watch in the dark. That should allow you to retain colour saturation in bright scenes, instead of losing saturation.

So while the workflow you list sounds OK and workable, you will have still the panel de-saturating your bright HDR output, so the TV will still effectively be crippling its own image.

The black control is adjustable in +/-0.25 increments I recall. I don't know what they are increments of, but I know on my X7900 projector I could increase the black level a couple of notches which would allow 17 to be visible (which often is crushed if you have black level set correctly in the projector) and crucially NOT raise the black floor, so it's possible it might be granular enough for what you are trying to do. No promises though, the X7900 definitely isn't an OLED.


----------



## jwort93

bobof said:


> I don't have an OLED, but have a fair bit of experience of some of the panel behaviours (I came up with the patch sorting algorithm to remove panel drift during profiling, see sig).
> 
> Bear in mind that you only actually have large ~P3 gamut up to around 400nits; above that the white subpixel will start to dominate bright, saturated colours and so will start to desaturate bright, colourful scenes.
> This might mean there are actually reasons to consider limiting brightness to below full panel brightness - particularly if you watch in the dark. That should allow you to retain colour saturation in bright scenes, instead of losing saturation.
> 
> So while the workflow you list sounds OK and workable, you will have still the panel de-saturating your bright HDR output, so the TV will still effectively be crippling its own image.
> 
> The black control is adjustable in +/-0.25 increments I recall. I don't know what they are increments of, but I know on my X7900 projector I could increase the black level a couple of notches which would allow 17 to be visible (which often is crushed if you have black level set correctly in the projector) and crucially NOT raise the black floor, so it's possible it might be granular enough for what you are trying to do. No promises though, the X7900 definitely isn't an OLED.


Perfect, thanks so much for this info! Yeah, I'm definitely gonna mess around and compare whether I prefer the look of HDR with peak brightness set to High or Off (or some setting in between), which should reduce or nearly eliminate the white sub-pixel boosting and loss of saturation in HDR mode.

I think I'm gonna give the Lumagen a shot.


----------



## bearcat2002

CP850-CLED said:


> I can definitely say HDMI has issues on the new AppleTV that weren't there before. Even on Tidal, some albums will play, and others give you a very long dark screen with no sounds then kick back to the previous menu.


Very weird…I put in a new AppleTV and ever since running 4K movies on Plex they are so dark they are unwatchable. If I run the same movie at 1080 all is fine. Nothing else has changed. Guess I should switch it back and see if the issue is still there. Any others have this issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bearcat2002

Ok I couldn’t take it…switched to old 4K AppleTV and all looks perfect with Plex. Definitely a new Apple TV 4K issue and not Lumagen. Sorry folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OzHDHT

bearcat2002 said:


> Very weird…I put in a new AppleTV and ever since running 4K movies on Plex they are so dark they are unwatchable. If I run the same movie at 1080 all is fine. Nothing else has changed. Guess I should switch it back and see if the issue is still there. Any others have this issue?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've literally just hooked one up last week but haven't viewed anything on it yet. I've got 4K content on Plex though so can easily have a look. I was using an old 4K ATV from another room the week prior similarly with no issues at all.

EDIT: Was able to go and check Plex with a 4K movie on the current ATV 4K just now. Absolutely no issues with the picture at all, exactly the same as the old 4K unit. I can also vouch for my other one plugged into my Sony ZD9 that I had already tried last week with 4K movies.


----------



## Clark Burk

bearcat2002 said:


> Ok I couldn’t take it…switched to old 4K AppleTV and all looks perfect with Plex. Definitely a new Apple TV 4K issue and not Lumagen. Sorry folks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you try the ATV 4 connected directly to the TV to see if that changed anything?


----------



## bearcat2002

Clark Burk said:


> Did you try the ATV 4 connected directly to the TV to see if that changed anything?


I’ll try that after work


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MDesigns

bearcat2002 said:


> I’ll try that after work
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Check also what metadata lumagen is reporting from the source. Maybe it is false metadata that is tricking the lumagen tone mapping.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

New ATV 4k has some issues. My HDHomerun 4k tuner and DVR app has issues with it so I am using my prior model for now until it gets fixed.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I haven’t had any issues with new Apple TV. Admittedly I only use it for Netflix and Disney+


----------



## bearcat2002

Same problem exists when hooking directly to projector. On LG OLED no issues. Weird. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OzHDHT

bearcat2002 said:


> Same problem exists when hooking directly to projector. On LG OLED no issues. Weird.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely weird when I get zero issues with Plex and 4K into the Lumagen with the JVC Z1.


----------



## Bubblehead00

bobof said:


> Do let us know the before and after, it will be useful info for folk I'm sure.


So I made two changes: I propped the Lumagen off of the shelf it was on to give some more breathing room below (it wasn't rack mounted), which dropped temps by about 10 degrees, then yesterday I added the small AC infinity fan to pull additional air out of the top, which dropped it another 5 or so, down to about 80.


----------



## sor

bearcat2002 said:


> Ok I couldn’t take it…switched to old 4K AppleTV and all looks perfect with Plex. Definitely a new Apple TV 4K issue and not Lumagen. Sorry folks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry if I missed something in the thread, but did you go through the new unit and set up all of the video config the same? My calibrator had me go through and set specific things, like 4k SDR 4:2:0, match source frame rate, etc.


----------



## mindedc

Killroy said:


> That’s the cable I use (50ft) without any issues for over 2-years.


I use Ruipro fiber cable... works like a champ at 18ghz


----------



## bearcat2002

sor said:


> Sorry if I missed something in the thread, but did you go through the new unit and set up all of the video config the same? My calibrator had me go through and set specific things, like 4k SDR 4:2:0, match source frame rate, etc.


Yep, all the same. I even reset the whole darn AppleTV and still the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bearcat2002

Bubblehead00 said:


> So I made two changes: I propped the Lumagen off of the shelf it was on to give some more breathing room below (it wasn't rack mounted), which dropped temps by about 10 degrees, then yesterday I added the small AC infinity fan to pull additional air out of the top, which dropped it another 5 or so, down to about 80.


What is optimal temp for the Lumagen and is there a place in the menus which shows the temp?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Bubblehead00 said:


> So I made two changes: I propped the Lumagen off of the shelf it was on to give some more breathing room below (it wasn't rack mounted), which dropped temps by about 10 degrees, then yesterday I added the small AC infinity fan to pull additional air out of the top, which dropped it another 5 or so, down to about 80.


80 is the lowest temp it tries to maintain I believe. If you look at the UI and see the fan speed, that should give you an idea for whether the fan is sped up or not. You can increase the lowest fan speed if you'd like to run cooler still.


----------



## BrolicBeast

Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348 Video Review is LIVE on YouTube: 




Be sure to pause the graphs and comparison sections comparing the 5-series to the 4-series. You might even see a difference or two.


----------



## netroamer

Received the new China remote, other than back light, I found it easy to use and it has a much more focused infrared output. The old remote always has trouble sending signals through a repeater causing the need for multiple attempts to trigger a change.


----------



## bjorg

BrolicBeast said:


> Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348 Video Review is LIVE on YouTube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to pause the graphs and comparison sections comparing the 5-series to the 4-series. You might even see a difference or two.


I'm curious, do you know how close the 444x with the Keces P8 linear power supply gets to the performance of the 5348?


----------



## BrolicBeast

bjorg said:


> I'm curious, do you know how close the 444x with the Keces P8 linear power supply gets to the performance of the 5348?


Im not sure, but (and this is just my opinion), I think that purpose-designed circuitry would outperform better power delivery. But what would the delta be between a Keces+444x and a 5348? Of that, I haven't a clue.....but I am getting ideas for a follow up video!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## MOberhardt

On the DC PSU talk does anyone know of any universal type PSUs that you could run all your AV DC units on? So it'd have various voltages, USB power, and various plug in cables for other units? I have occasionally had a look over the years.


----------



## netroamer

MOberhardt said:


> On the DC PSU talk does anyone know of any universal type PSUs that you could run all your AV DC units on? So it'd have various voltages, USB power, and various plug in cables for other units? I have occasionally had a look over the years.


Check Snap AV. I have 2 5v/12v supplies in my system. Not sure of Maximum amps per output.


----------



## MOberhardt

netroamer said:


> Check Snap AV. I have 2 5v/12v supplies in my system. Not sure of Maximum amps per output.


Hmm yes that is something like what I'm looking for. 240V though! And not sure if linear. But that sort of concept. Would be nice if had friendlier outputs like the trist lock cable types, and USB direct as well. But that sort of concept.


----------



## jrp

bearcat2002 said:


> What is optimal temp for the Lumagen and is there a place in the menus which shows the temp?


The design target for the FPGA is no more than 84C, although they seem to run fine up to about 100C in the units I have tested.

You can check the temperature, and/or set Fan Speed, in the Other->Fan Control Menu. Note that if your set the minimum fan speed high, and then low again, it will take time for the current speed to go back to a lower speed.

I recommend you keep the FPGA in the 70's C, and the "Board Temp" on the 50's C.

Note that the Fan controller is only looking at the FPGA Chip temperature. If you have a hot environment, you should check the board temperature to make sure it is in the 50's at equilibrium, or lower is fine. If not, increase the minimum Fan Speed until at equilibrium the "Board Temp" stays in the 50's C.

As always, save your changes.


----------



## bearcat2002

Thank you Jim for the great info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> I recommend you keep the FPGA in the 70's C, and the "Board Temp" on the 50's C.
> 
> Note that the Fan controller is only looking at the FPGA Chip temperature. If you have a hot environment, you should check the board temperature to make sure it is in the 50's at equilibrium, or lower is fine. If not, increase the minimum Fan Speed until at equilibrium the "Board Temp" stays in the 50's C.
> 
> As always, save your changes.


Could you consider extending the range of fan speed temperature set point options to have a couple of settings lower than 80? At the moment you have to increase the minimum speed if you want to reduce the temp below 80 (if the environment means it would settle at / around 80), and at that point the temp you end up with is not easy to predict, as it is tightly correlated to ambient, plus change in usage modes, and it seems even how many HDMI ports you've used in a session contributes (as I think they are in low power mode until first use, and then kept running until standby).


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Could you consider extending the range of fan speed options to have a couple of settings lower than 80?


I think this is more relevant now that we have the Radiance Pro 5348. I changed the air-flow in the 5348 to optimize airflow over the FPGA and I am seeing Chip temperatures below 70 in some cases at normal room temperatures with a fan speed of 2 (the default).

I sent Patrick an email asking him to add lower target Chip temperatures to the Fan Control Menu.

==== 

General comment for all: Even at a fan speed of 10, I find the Radiance Pro Fan noise inaudible even as close as a couple of feet away. Since the Radiance Pro 5348 in the Lumagen Demo Theater is in a (vented) cabinet, I set the minimum fan speed to 10, so the fan runs at maximum all the time and the FPGA temperature is always as low as it can be. I suggest anyone who has the Pro in a rack, or cabinet, or in a place where fan noise is not an issue, set the minimum fan speed to 10, or something higher than the default of 2, as well. Keeping the FPGA as cool as possible is a reasonable goal and so running the fan at a higher minimum, or reducing the target below 80C (once minimum target reduced below 80), is a good thing to consider as long as you are not so close to the unit that the fan noise is a bother at the higher speed.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> I think this is more relevant now that we have the Radiance Pro 5348. I changed the air-flow in the 5348 to optimize airflow over the FPGA and I am seeing Chip temperatures below 70 in some cases at normal room temperatures with a fan speed of 2 (the default).
> 
> I sent Patrick an email asking him to add lower target Chip temperatures to the Fan Control Menu.


Thanks, that would be great. Of course I mean temperature set points in my previous post, and not fan speeds, d'oh!  And you are right, the fan is very quiet in these now. I did run it at 10 for a little while and it is inaudible above the room noise floor once the projector is on.


----------



## bjorg

Isn't there an option to automatically detect how to best de-interlace content? I was watching some Opus Arte content yesterday on Kaleidescape. The content was in 1080i with a lot of flickering. It wasn't until I switched the de-interlacing field that it picture became noticeable better (as in _quite good!_).

I thought this type of self-optimization was already built-in. Did it get removed in an update or am I misremembering?


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> Isn't there an option to automatically detect how to best de-interlace content? I was watching some Opus Arte content yesterday on Kaleidescape. The content was in 1080i with a lot of flickering. It wasn't until I switched the de-interlacing field that it picture became noticeable better (as in _quite good!_).
> 
> I thought this type of self-optimization was already built-in. Did it get removed in an update or am I misremembering?


Note: This is not a deinterlacing issue, but a video source format issue. The SMPTE docs specify how the top and bottom fields are supposed to be sent. Some sources, including the Strato, send the fields incorrectly. Note: Apparently the M500 1080i output has the correct field order

Make sure you have the latest release loaded. We did add some code that detects when the fields are sent in the incorrect order as they are from the Strato. At least I think this is in the latest release. I will check and ask Patrick to get it in the next release if it is not in the currently posted release.

With the new code the Pro can detect the incorrect field order from the Strato (and other sources that have the incorrect field order which at this point there are very few) and correct for it. However, for everyone with a Strato it is still best to select "Flip Field" in the deinterlacing control menu in the Pro. For an M500 select normal field order.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> Note: This is not a deinterlacing issue, but a video source format issue. The SMPTE docs specify how the top and bottom fields are supposed to be sent. Some sources, including the Strato, send the fields incorrectly. Note: Apparently the M500 1080i output has the correct field order
> 
> Make sure you have the latest release loaded. We did add some code that detects when the fields are sent in the incorrect order as they are from the Strato. At least I think this is in the latest release. I will check and ask Patrick to get it in the next release if it is not in the currently posted release.
> 
> With the new code the Pro can detect the incorrect field order from the Strato (and other sources that have the incorrect field order which at this point there are very few) and correct for it. However, for everyone with a Strato it is still best to select "Flip Field" in the deinterlacing control menu in the Pro. For an M500 select normal field order.


I'm running the firmware with the vertical and horizontal sharpening.

So, I should be able to configure the resolution specific memory to swap the fields and then make sure to always use it for the Strato input.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> I'm running the firmware with the vertical and horizontal sharpening.
> 
> So, I should be able to configure the resolution specific memory to swap the fields and then make sure to always use it for the Strato input.


It might only be in the 051021 release, but it might not have made it in a release yet. I tested it on an unpublished test release. So, not sure if it made it into any public release yet.

Each input has its own "flip field" setting for interlaced source material. You can change it for the Strato input, and leave the other inputs in normal-field-order mode.

Make sure to Save your changes.


----------



## sfisher64

jrp said:


> It might only be in the 051021 release, but it might not have made it in a release yet. I tested it on an unpublished test release. So, not sure if it made it into any public release yet.
> 
> Each input has its own "flip field" setting for interlaced source material. You can change it for the Strato input, and leave the other inputs in normal-field-order mode.
> 
> Make sure to Save your changes.


Can you please tell us where in the menus I can find the "flip field" setting for interlaced source material? And can this be set for all resolutions for a given input, or is it set resolution-by-resolution?


----------



## jrp

sfisher64 said:


> Can you please tell us where in the menus I can find the "flip field" setting for interlaced source material? And can this be set for all resolutions for a given input, or is it set resolution-by-resolution?


The "Flip Field" is: MENU . Input . In Configs . [Resolution] . [#] . Control . Deinterlace . Field

This is in the manual. You can find it in the table-of-contents, or by searching for "flip" in the PDF manual version. Given its location in the menu, this is a per input, per input-resolution, per input-resolution-config-memory-number, control. The "#" indicates the active input-resolution-config-memory-number for the specific resolution. Also, if you have a source that needs a Flip-field for 1080i, you will likely also need to set it for 480 and/or 576.

IMPORTANT NOTE: You need to understand that all inputs for a specific resolution use the same input-resolution-config-memory-number by default. So, with default settings, if you change the Flip-field bit you are changing it for all inputs. To change it for only one input, you need to do more work. This is covered in the manual, but here is some additional info (or skip to the example at the bottom):

I understand not everyone gets the idea of the "indirection" that uses a "pointer" (the input-resolution-config-memory-number), to "point to" a specific configuration memory for that input, input-memory, and input resolution. By default the Pro is setup so a change to one input, and input resolution, affects all inputs. In general this simplifies setup since changes to one input apply to all inputs for the active source resolution. Use of indirection has great flexibility, but does require a bit of work to setup up when it is needed.

The Pro allows you to select a different input-resolution-config-memory-number if a particular input needs a setting that is not the same as other inputs. This is the case here for the Strato interlaced Flip-field setting since you want to change the Flip-field only for the Strato.

You need to point the source in question to a different input-resolution-config-memory-number. You do this for each resolution you need to flip the field for using the Input Setup Menu. The Input Setup Menu is very similar to the Output Setup Menu in that it allows for different options to be selected for different sources.

You need to select "2D" in the Input Setup Menu for the active input resolution. Then change the input-resolution-config-memory-number for the affected input and input resolution. For example, the default for the input-resolution-config-memory-number for 1080 is 1080-0. In other words it is the "0" memory for 1080 source. Once you are at the 2D Input Setup selection, press OK to get into the change menu and then select (for example) 1080-1. Press OK to accept.

Note that if you also have 480i or 576i sources you need to change the selected input-resolution-config-memory-number for these as well, before changing the Flip-field setting.

After you make the change if you change the flip-field setting you will change it only for those inputs that use the 1080-1 input-resolution-config-memory-number.

======= 

An example makes this easier to understand:


Select the Strato input
Play a 1080i source
MENU -> Input Setup Menu -> 1080 resolution, and change to memory 1080-1. Press OK.
MENU -> Input -> In Configs -> 1080 -> 1080-1 -> Control -> Deinterlace -> Field, and enable Flip field. Press OK.
Play a 480i source
MENU -> Input Setup Menu -> 480 resolution, and change to memory 480-1. Press OK.
MENU -> Input -> In Configs -> 480 -> 480-1 -> Control -> Deinterlace -> Field, and enable Flip field. Press OK.
Save


----------



## jwort93

Picked up a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242-18G recently, and I'm loving it so far, but one thing I haven't been able to figure out after digging through the settings is why my Kaleidescape Strato's menu looks noticeably less sharp when output at 60Hz, than when output at 24Hz. I prefer it at 60Hz, since I'm using it with an OLED TV, not a projector, so the resyncs don't take that long, and prefer the smoothness of 60Hz for the UI.

When I look at the info page on the Lumagen while the Kaleidescape is outputting 60Hz, it reports it receiving a 3840x2160 4:4:4 SDR 709 signal on page 1, but on Page 4, it reports a Vres of 2160, and an Hres of only 1920.

On the other hand when I look at the info page on the Lumagen while the Kaleidescape is outputting 24Hz, it still reports receiving a 3840x2160 4:4:4 SDR 709 signal on page 1, but on page 4, it reports a Vres of 2160, and an Hres of the full 3840 as expected.

I've attached screenshots of the Lumagen's info pages as described above, first two images are at 59.94Hz, second two at 23.976Hz.

Any idea why I seem to be seeing reduced horizontal resolution at 4K 60Hz? Is there a setting I should change to fix this?


----------



## uderman

jrp said:


> Note: This is not a deinterlacing issue, but a video source format issue. The SMPTE docs specify how the top and bottom fields are supposed to be sent. Some sources, including the Strato, send the fields incorrectly. Note: Apparently the M500 1080i output has the correct field order
> 
> Make sure you have the latest release loaded. We did add some code that detects when the fields are sent in the incorrect order as they are from the Strato. At least I think this is in the latest release. I will check and ask Patrick to get it in the next release if it is not in the currently posted release.
> 
> With the new code the Pro can detect the incorrect field order from the Strato (and other sources that have the incorrect field order which at this point there are very few) and correct for it. However, for everyone with a Strato it is still best to select "Flip Field" in the deinterlacing control menu in the Pro. For an M500 select normal field order.



I have a M700. I haven’t tried any 1080i source but on 480i content it has the correct field order. It must be a Strato thing.


----------



## Ediddy

I’m new to Lumagen and need direction on how to set up the auto aspect on my device. i have a 16 x 9 screen and would like the lumagen to automatically adjust the aspect ratio when I use my panny bluray player. Any advice would be greatly appreciate.


----------



## jbrinegar

Ediddy said:


> I’m new to Lumagen and need direction on how to set up the auto aspect on my device. i have a 16 x 9 screen and would like the lumagen to automatically adjust the aspect ratio when I use my panny bluray player. Any advice would be greatly appreciate.


Auto aspect is for scope screens to maintain cih. That is my understanding. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong


----------



## bobof

jbrinegar said:


> Auto aspect is for scope screens to maintain cih. That is my understanding. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong


It is possible to use autoaspect with a 16:9 screen in at least 2 ways:
1) Just use the aspect detect to move electromechanical masks on a screen
2) Have auto-aspect auto zoom wider aspect content to fill the screen.

I do 1). I'm not suggesting 2) is a good idea - creative intent and all that - but it is, nevertheless, an option, for those who dislike black bars.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> It is possible to use autoaspect with a 16:9 screen in at least 2 ways:
> 1) Just use the aspect detect to move electromechanical masks on a screen
> 2) Have auto-aspect auto zoom wider aspect content to fill the screen.
> 
> I do 1). I'm not suggesting 2) is a good idea - creative intent and all that - but it is, nevertheless, an option, for those who dislike black bars.


You would lose a lot of picture content doing # 2!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kurvenal

Can someone recommend a Crestron programmer who is very familiar with the Radiance Pro RS232 commands to help me take advantage of the new input aspect detection feature in combination with the Vertical Shift setting to help me automate my screen masking? I just changed to double-top screen masking so that I can eliminate letterboxing completely by shifting the image to the bottom of my 16:9 screen and doing all the masking at the top, which gives me a better viewing angle. Now I want to see if I can automate the masking and vertical shift levels using input aspect detection. 

Thanks.


----------



## sor

I saw that new feature in 050221, mentioning the “full v4” report can be useful for driving masking systems, and I was left scratching my head. I’m already using version ZQI23 “full v3” which contains source and output aspect to drive my masking, it wasn’t clear to me what was actually new here or if there was something I could take advantage of. It seems to me you’d want to use the Lumagen output aspect for masking anyway, it would always be correct even if you manually change aspect or use NLS.


----------



## Kurvenal

sor said:


> I saw that new feature in 050221, mentioning the “full v4” report can be useful for driving masking systems, and I was left scratching my head. I’m already using version ZQI23 “full v3” which contains source and output aspect to drive my masking, it wasn’t clear to me what was actually new here or if there was something I could take advantage of. It seems to me you’d want to use the Lumagen output aspect for masking anyway, it would always be correct even if you manually change aspect or use NLS.


I have had some issues using the Lumagen auto aspect with Kaleidescape, so could not take full advantage ot it. As I understand it, for some sources the aspect ratio is often 1.78 even for letterboxed titles because they are simply filling the top and bottom with a black image, so I am assuming that the input aspect detection is able to adjust for that.


----------



## Mark_H

sor said:


> I saw that new feature in 050221, mentioning the “full v4” report can be useful for driving masking systems, and I was left scratching my head. I’m already using version ZQI23 “full v3” which contains source and output aspect to drive my masking, it wasn’t clear to me what was actually new here or if there was something I could take advantage of.


As I understand it, v3 requires auto aspect to be activated to populate the original fields. v4 populates the new fields with aspect information even if auto aspect isn't switched on. If v3 is working for you, then no need to switch at the moment.

Currently, with auto-aspect on, v4 will have the same data in both sets of fields. Hopefully, the v4 fields will eventually populate actual aspect ratio, rather than the currently limited subset used so that we can also auto-frame 1.66:1, 2.57:1, or indeed any aspect ratio.


----------



## bobof

sor said:


> I saw that new feature in 050221, mentioning the “full v4” report can be useful for driving masking systems, and I was left scratching my head. I’m already using version ZQI23 “full v3” which contains source and output aspect to drive my masking, it wasn’t clear to me what was actually new here or if there was something I could take advantage of. It seems to me you’d want to use the Lumagen output aspect for masking anyway, it would always be correct even if you manually change aspect or use NLS.


Some mask screen solutions don't actually need the Lumagen aspect scaling functions, they just need the screen move triggering - eg my 16x9 top and bottom Screen research electric mask screen. When using V3 reports with autoaspect enabled, the aspect detection causes a frame glitch as the Lumagen "changes" AR. Using the V4 reports with AA disabled gets rid of the Lumagen aspect change, and hence also the glitch. So the masks just glide in and out on the screen automagically.

If using a scope screen where you have to change the image scaling for eg: 16:9 to fit the screen height, then I believe the glitch passes mostly unnoticed as the aspect change is far more significant.


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen

*052521- Posted 060421 *
Small improvement to DTM eliminates an incorrect brightness jump in some scenes.
Expanded range lower for FPGA chip temp setting.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## sor

Thanks everyone on the clarification. That makes sense - if you aren’t using an A-lens but still want to mask you’ll still need that info. 

I didn’t realize that full v3 report only included aspect ratio information if auto aspect was turned on, and the description on the firmware download page is quite lacking, doesn’t mention auto aspect on/off at all.


----------



## Surge2018

asharma said:


> Thanks, What mode needs to be used on the JVC if the Lumagen is outputting SDRBT2020 with the HDR flag set to on? Is it a User mode with gamma set to 2.4 or is it the already present HDR mode (not frame adapt)...?


Hi, we spoke 1:1 about a month ago...

There is no good reason to output HDR from the Lumagen with a JVC or Sony display. You want the Lumagen to do the tone-mapping, so set it to output in an SDR container to your display.


----------



## asharma

Surge2018 said:


> Hi, we spoke 1:1 about a month ago...
> 
> There is no good reason to output HDR from the Lumagen with a JVC or Sony display. You want the Lumagen to do the tone-mapping, so set it to output in an SDR container to your display.


Thanks, yes that’s what I have done but what mode should the jvc be set to? Just a User mode with gamma set to 2.4?


----------



## Surge2018

bobof said:


> Mostly for me it was just about geeking out and having the latest in the HT, fear of missing out and all that... hehe.
> I think more or less the only thing they've added is better support for 60Hz HDR content.
> 
> The SOC processor is "different" - A12 vs A10X. This seems like it may be a mixed blessing - with better CPU performance and perhaps slightly worse GPU performance, and I guess a better video decoder.
> 
> There have been some reports that the video output in some modes is a bit more accurate.
> 
> It is billed as having HDMI 2.1 but not really any HDMI2.1 features discussed at the moment, and running it into a 5348, that is more of a curiosity than anything else.


I got the new Apple TV as well, going into the 5348. I was hoping for lower jitter; but I have no way to measure it. The previous gen Apple TV 4K was a bit sluggish when switching from the menus to content, this new one is faster, as expected.

I have noticed bugs where it says it cannot switch from 4K SDR to 1080P SDR - it says the display is not capable of displaying 1080P(!), which is obviously false. Rebooting the ATV fixes it. Never had that with the 1st Gen ATV...


----------



## Surge2018

Dominic Chan said:


> It’s more than toggling the Lumagen. You also need to toggle the JVC DTM on/off during the comparison.


You can do it, but it’s not even close - the Lumagen’s DTM is far better than the JVC’s (or latest from Sony). It’s sort of like doing an A-B between hamburger and filet minion!


----------



## jbrinegar

Surge2018 said:


> Hi, we spoke 1:1 about a month ago...
> 
> There is no good reason to output HDR from the Lumagen with a JVC or Sony display. You want the Lumagen to do the tone-mapping, so set it to output in an SDR container to your display.


Personal preference, but I like to use SDH2020 hdr flag on for my rs3000.

Ive got my JVC to automatically go to user mode 4 when it gets an hdr flag, using gamma 2.4 imported. I like it like this so it’s automated.

Of course you could leave the hdr flag off and just manually switch your JVC to the appropriate mode with a gamma 2.4


----------



## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> Personal preference, but I like to use SDH2020 hdr flag on for my rs3000.
> 
> Ive got my JVC to automatically go to user mode 4 when it gets an hdr flag, using gamma 2.4 imported. I like it like this so it’s automated.
> 
> Of course you could leave the hdr flag off and just manually switch your JVC to the appropriate mode with a gamma 2.4


When using your User Mode 4, what is your picture mode? Is it set to HDR…? I know it can’t be set to frame adapt…


----------



## jbrinegar

asharma said:


> When using your User Mode 4, what is your picture mode? Is it set to HDR…? I know it can’t be set to frame adapt…


My picture mode is user 4 (I custom named it 4k hdr). If you do it this way, make sure you import gamma 2.4. Lumagen set to sdh2020. See pics:


----------



## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> My picture mode is user 4 (I custom named it 4k hdr). If you do it this way, make sure you import gamma 2.4. Lumagen set to sdh2020. See pics:
> View attachment 3141989
> View attachment 3141990
> View attachment 3141991


Thanks for the info…I’m trying to understand why you have set it up this way…is the issue that if you use the default picture mode of HDR that you can’t then set gamma to 2.4? My RS3000 should be arriving late next week so just trying to get ahead of the game a bit…thanks again…

Edit: also why do you need to import a custom gamma? Can’t I just chose gamma 2.4?


----------



## jbrinegar

asharma said:


> Thanks for the info…I’m trying to understand why you have set it up this way…is the issue that if you use the default picture mode of HDR that you can’t then set gamma to 2.4? My RS3000 should be arriving late next week so just trying to get ahead of the game a bit…thanks again…


Yes, ever since JVC 3.50 update, if you want the JVC to “auto switch” to your desired hdr mode with the hdr flag and not use it’s built in frame adapt mode, you have to import the gamma 2.4.

If you don’t mind using the JVC remote to manually switch to your desired hdr mode, then have the Lumagen send sdr2020 (instead of sdh2020).

Does that make sense? I’m probably not explaining it very well


----------



## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> Yes, ever since JVC 3.50 update, if you want the JVC to “auto switch” to your desired hdr mode with the hdr flag and not use it’s built in frame adapt mode, you have to import the gamma 2.4.
> 
> If you don’t mind using the JVC remote to manually switch to your desired hdr mode, then have the Lumagen send sdr2020 (instead of sdh2020).
> 
> Does that make sense? I’m probably not explaining it very well


Thanks, in the second scenario (Lumagen sending SDR2020), would the JVC would be doing the tone mapping instead of the Lumagen?


----------



## jbrinegar

asharma said:


> Thanks, in the second scenario (Lumagen sending SDR2020), would the JVC would be doing the tone mapping instead of the Lumagen?


the Lumagen does the tone mapping for sdr2020 or sdh2020 as long as you have the JVC in the correct picture mode (not frame adapt). The only difference is sdh2020 sends the hdr flag so your JVC will switch picture modes automatically.

Your JVC won’t do the tonemapping unless you have it in frame adapt (or hdr10 pic mode?)

Im sorry I’m confusing you! Bottom line, if you want the JVC to auto switch on its own, use sdh2020 (flag on) with user 4, 5 or 6 with import of gamma 2.4 you’ve got it set up correctly to let the Lumagen do its thing.

If you don’t care about it auto switching, just send sdr2020 (hdr flag off) and manually change the JVC to a pic mode you’ve set up with 2.4 gamma and bt2020 color profile.


----------



## Killroy

I am so happy I never updated mine to v3.50!!!


----------



## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> the Lumagen does the tone mapping for sdr2020 or sdh2020 as long as you have the JVC in the correct picture mode (not frame adapt). The only difference is sdh2020 sends the hdr flag so your JVC will switch picture modes automatically.
> 
> Your JVC won’t do the tonemapping unless you have it in frame adapt (or hdr10 pic mode?)
> 
> Im sorry I’m confusing you! Bottom line, if you want the JVC to auto switch on its own, use sdh2020 (flag on) with user 4, 5 or 6 with import of gamma 2.4 you’ve got it set up correctly to let the Lumagen do its thing.
> 
> If you don’t care about it auto switching, just send sdr2020 (hdr flag off) and manually change the JVC to a pic mode you’ve set up with 2.4 gamma and bt2020 color profile.


No need to apologize...very very helpful…thanks for clarifying…


----------



## jbrinegar

Killroy said:


> I am so happy I never updated mine to v3.50!!!


For real!
All credit to Jue Liang, I believe he was the first to figure out the elaborate workaround.
Here’s hoping on Jvc’s future firmware updates they’ll go back to letting you pick any pic mode you want again for hdr again!


----------



## garyolearysteele

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks a million, I must be seen as the dumbest in Sweden right now, I totally misunderstood the whole concept.
> 
> The question that I ask myself if not the wider color gamut and the calibrated greyscale for bt2020 could be "distorted" when converting bt709 to bt2020? I mean my display Sony VW790 only support perhaps around 75--80% of the bt2020 gamut, Will the colors really look accurate by doing the conversion between 709 to 2020?
> 
> Thanks again!


As a side note, my Calibrator here in the UK (and also those French guys who did a video on the MadVR using aquaman and the Sony PJ) say that “Colour 2” is the native colour space for the Sony 760es (and probably the 790). You can only select this by using 709 then it becomes a selectable option in the PJ. My calibrator who is the main distributor/reseller/integrator of lumagen here sent me some measurements which show the 709/col2 actually had a slightly wider measured gamut than the 2020. I realise it feels like a downgrade, but Gordon is as experienced as they come with lumagen in this part of the world so I’ve no reason to doubt it.


----------



## bobof

garyolearysteele said:


> As a side note, my Calibrator here in the UK (and also those French guys who did a video on the MadVR using aquaman and the Sony PJ) say that “Colour 2” is the native colour space for the Sony 760es (and probably the 790). You can only select this by using 709 then it becomes a selectable option in the PJ. My calibrator who is the main distributor/reseller/integrator of lumagen here sent me some measurements which show the 709/col2 actually had a slightly wider measured gamut than the 2020. I realise it feels like a downgrade, but Gordon is as experienced as they come with lumagen in this part of the world so I’ve no reason to doubt it.


I think this neatly highlights the potential issues with just selecting modes on the basis of names or what looks best; there's no substitute for measuring and fully understanding how a given display behaves in each mode in order to work out which is the display mode that will yield the best results. The choices made in displays often seem arbirtrary, though I'm sure they were in line with achieving some goal (that goal was probably not best possible reproduction when using an external video processor, though!).

It is a shame that displays don't make a habit of providing an easily accessible and clearly labelled "native" gamut.


----------



## bobof

jbrinegar said:


> Yes, ever since JVC 3.50 update, if you want the JVC to “auto switch” to your desired hdr mode with the hdr flag and not use it’s built in frame adapt mode, you have to import the gamma 2.4.
> 
> If you don’t mind using the JVC remote to manually switch to your desired hdr mode, then have the Lumagen send sdr2020 (instead of sdh2020).


The other option is to use some sort of control system to explicitly change modes on the display on the basis of the HDMI input format to the Lumagen. I do that with my X7900 as it is a bit less risky - my X7900 dislikes various power cycle states that you can make happen with use of the HDR flag when the HDR flag is also causing the lamp iris to move (I have lamp iris more closed for SDR).


----------



## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> For real!
> All credit to Jue Liang, I believe he was the first to figure out the elaborate workaround.
> Here’s hoping on Jvc’s future firmware updates they’ll go back to letting you pick any pic mode you want again for hdr again!


Just curious, what are your settings for Low Ratio, DynPad, and MaxLight as we have similar setups…I know you have more gain than me, but just curious, thanks


----------



## J.Mike Ferrara

The latest version of the MS Surface laptop - 4 - will not accept the USB to COM port driver in the Lumagen. It requires a separate driver. My old Surface book still works fine - hook up the USB cable and it recognizes the Lumagen as a COM port.

Not sure if this can be updated to work with the latest iteration of the USB port in the Surface Laptop 4.


----------



## bobof

J.Mike Ferrara said:


> The latest version of the MS Surface laptop - 4 - will not accept the USB to COM port driver in the Lumagen. It requires a separate driver. My old Surface book still works fine - hook up the USB cable and it recognizes the Lumagen as a COM port.
> 
> Not sure if this can be updated to work with the latest iteration of the USB port in the Surface Laptop 4.


Sounds very odd. Have you tried installing the correct FTDI driver for it?


----------



## jbrinegar

asharma said:


> Just curious, what are your settings for Low Ratio, DynPad, and MaxLight as we have similar setups…I know you have more gain than me, but just curious, thanks


I just use JRPs recommendations. I use 6x multiplier for my max light ( i get 100 nits so I use 600 max light). 
Max light 600, dyn pad 5, low ratio 32. 

Very happy with my picture, and I never have to tweak. I watch 4k uhd discs on my oppo, and lots of apple 4k tv (apple tv+, netflix, disney +, itunes). Nothing ever looks too dark. 

Of course this is all very subjective, so you can try different settiings and "season to taste"


----------



## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> I just use JRPs recommendations. I use 6x multiplier for my max light ( i get 100 nits so I use 600 max light).
> Max light 600, dyn pad 5, low ratio 32.
> 
> Very happy with my picture, and I never have to tweak. I watch 4k uhd discs on my oppo, and lots of apple 4k tv (apple tv+, netflix, disney +, itunes). Nothing ever looks too dark.
> 
> Of course this is all very subjective, so you can try different settiings and "season to taste"


Awesome, thank you!


----------



## jrp

sor said:


> Thanks everyone on the clarification. That makes sense - if you aren’t using an A-lens but still want to mask you’ll still need that info.
> 
> I didn’t realize that full v3 report only included aspect ratio information if auto aspect was turned on, and the description on the firmware download page is quite lacking, doesn’t mention auto aspect on/off at all.


If auto aspect is off, the V3 aspect reports the aspect selected by the user, as I think it should. If someone is manually controlling the aspects, this reports the user selected aspect to the control system to use for controlling the masking. Many owners prefer to manually control aspect ratio selection and masking, so they are in control of when masking moves. This allows mask movement to be automated based on the user aspect selection.

The new Full v4 was added to output the detected aspect without breaking all the systems that use Full v3 to report the user selected aspect.


----------



## jrp

jbrinegar said:


> Personal preference, but I like to use SDH2020 hdr flag on for my rs3000.
> 
> I've got my JVC to automatically go to user mode 4 when it gets an hdr flag, using gamma 2.4 imported. I like it like this so it’s automated.


Perfectly rational choice. Using the "HDR Flag" with Pro output as "SDH2020" to the JVC, but selecting a 2.4 Gamma for the memory selected by the HDR Flag works well. This allows you to have different settings, such as laser level, for HDR content.

The only downside is changing the HDR flag from off to on going to HDR content causes an output restart. This can lengthen the time to getting an image on the screen.

I have both CMS0 and CMS1 set to SDR2020, HDRFlag=Off, and auto-convert enabled, in the Lumagen demo theater. Personal choice. I used to use the "SDH2020" mode for HDR. I just prefer one less Pro HDMI output format changing when I go from the SDR Strato menu (now at 24 Hertz) to a 24 Hertz HDR movie.

NOTE: To reiterate, the HDR flag=on for HDR source mode (SDR output, HDRFlag=On showing as SDH2020 on Info pg 1) _only_ works with a JVC projector.


----------



## Hawkmarket

jrp said:


> Perfectly rational choice. Using the "HDR Flag" with Pro output as "SDH2020" to the JVC, but selecting a 2.4 Gamma for the memory selected by the HDR Flag works well. This allows you to have different settings, such as laser level, for HDR content.
> 
> The only downside is changing the HDR flag from off to on going to HDR content causes an output restart. This can lengthen the time to getting an image on the screen.
> 
> I have both CMS0 and CMS1 set to SDR2020, HDRFlag=Off, and auto-convert enabled, in the Lumagen demo theater. Personal choice. I used to use the "SDH2020" mode for HDR. I just prefer one less Pro HDMI output format changing when I go from the SDR Strato menu (now at 24 Hertz) to a 24 Hertz HDR movie.
> 
> NOTE: To reiterate, the HDR flag=on for HDR source mode (SDR output, HDRFlag=On showing as SDH2020 on Info pg 1) _only_ works with a JVC projector.


Sent you a PM if you have a minute.....thanks.


----------



## jrp

Hawkmarket said:


> Sent you a PM if you have a minute.....thanks.


Please send me an email at the lumagen.com support email. Happy to discuss by email.


----------



## jrp

J.Mike Ferrara said:


> The latest version of the MS Surface laptop - 4 - will not accept the USB to COM port driver in the Lumagen. It requires a separate driver. My old Surface book still works fine - hook up the USB cable and it recognizes the Lumagen as a COM port.
> 
> Not sure if this can be updated to work with the latest iteration of the USB port in the Surface Laptop 4.


Please go to the ftdichip.com under drivers and then VCP drivers. Download and install the appropriate driver. In almost all cases downloading the current driver from the website will allow the USB virtual com port (VCP) using the Pro's internal chip to work.

This is assuming you have not already tried it.


----------



## jrp

Because of Hawkmarket's post I went and checked my PM's. Since I _never_ check PM's I have a number of unanswered PM's. So to you who tried, apologies.

Everyone: Please do not PM me. Email works much better for me. I check email pretty much all day every day. So please email me at the lumagen.com support email. If I could figure a way to turn off PM's here I would,

I try to answer emails within 24 hours if a short reply is all that is needed. If it is going to take some time, I generally wait until I have time over the weekend. If you have an urgent need for an answer (e.g. a dealer on-site, or an end user who is not making any progress, or you want a couple minute tutorial on setup), it is best to call the number on our website (or if you have my cell number call that).

If it seems too long since you emailed and I have not replied based on the above, it likely means your email went to SPAM. In that case you can send the email again and then call the number on our website and leave a message for me to check SPAM and your email address. Please speak slowly and clearly as I often get rushed messages that have a nice dropout in the middle and I can't understand the email address to search for in the SPAM folder. Saying the email or phone number twice makes it much more likely it will be understood. I have had a number of people I could not call back because they spoke way too fast and the numbers were garbled.

While I am at it:

I do not do training for calibration. There are classes for calibration training. Please do not ask open ended questions like "what's the process for ...." I do have a setup slide set I can email you if you send me a request by email. It has some calibration hints. Also, I have limited knowledge of Lightspace (which I own), and Calman (which I sometimes get a temp license for to use for training dealers), but I am not an expert on either. Please do not ask how to do something in any calibration software package. Those are questions for the software vendor.

If you have a specific question about how a Radiance Pro command works, or concerning a specific recommendation I have made publicly, I will be happy to try to answer. I do ask you at least try to read the manual first to get an idea on what you need. Please do not use me as your Radiance Pro manual index function.

If you at least try to use the manual first I am happy to help if you do not understand. And I admit I wrote most of the manual and that I am rather terse, and write at a technical level. So, please do not be embarrassed if you have read the manual and then tried but just do not understand. That is the time to call me or send an email.

The manual is on our manuals page.

Thanks for your help making my support emails and calls shorter.


----------



## jrp

I had an email recently asking the blunt, but valid, question from a prospective customer of how long Lumagen will continue to make improvements to our products. Part of this question was if I plan to retire soon. I thought I would post my response here since I have to imagine some people considering the Radiance Pro would like to know. Here is my answer:

Please rest assured that unless I get Alzheimer’s I will never stop working until I am dead. I plan to never retire. I plan to run Lumagen for the rest of my life. Of course, I can’t say something won’t happen to interfere with my plans. Patrick is an essential aspect of continuing improvements for Lumagen video processors since he does the software/FPGA programming. However, in talking with Pat he is on the same path as me I believe. We both love our work and neither of us would be happy if our brains were left in idle by retirement. Even if something did happen to me, Lumagen would go on producing the models available at that time, and I believe Patrick, who is much younger than me, would continue software and algorithm improvements.

If we _*never*_ upgraded the Pro again it would remain the best video processor on the planet for like ever. It can continue to be the central part of your 4k home theater for many years to come with the current software. I believe it would not become obsolete with current software for 4k, but again we plan on improving the software significantly in future releases. I was going to write on why 8K is a total waste, and that 4k is already beyond human visual acuity, as part of this answer but let me stop with just that comment. I will make more comments on 8k in a future posts.

No one can adequately predict the future, but my plan is to continue Lumagen for as long as I am capable (queue angelic voices and fade to black of no more than 0.001 nits).


----------



## EVH78

Hooray and cheers, Jim and Pat! I could not be a happier customer right now!!


----------



## LJG

This is great to hear Jim. I am just wondering aloud, and this may be a very silly question, but could the dynamic tone mapping be advanced with the ability to assist laser projectors with dynamic dimming feature?


----------



## jrp

LJG said:


> This is great to hear Jim. I am just wondering aloud, and this may be a very silly question, but could the dynamic tone mapping be advanced with the ability to assist laser projectors with dynamic dimming feature?


Excellent question.

I do not like dynamic iris', and so far I do not like dynamic laser controls. They do not work well enough. These are both on my list of "Demo Features." What I mean is, like frame-interpolation, one can come up with a great demo, but they fall down on real content.

The Radiance Pro, since it has the best scene detection, and DTM, can do a much better job of controlling the laser level and in conjunction use the DTM to change the image transfer function to match the adjusted laser level. I know our RS4500 could be taken from very good contrast, to amazing real-world-content contrast. The Radiance Pro DTM would choose exactly the right laser-level, and exactly the right transfer function to match for each scene.

I actually suggested to JVC that if JVC gave the Radiance Pro HDMI Info-Frame control for the laser level it would allow the Radiance Pro to dramatically improve the real-content dynamic range and contrast. I was told "not going to happen." I figured as much but I wanted to make the offer.

===== 

I will work with any projector company that is interested in much better real-world image dynamic range and contrast performance on the implementation of a laser-level control using the Lumagen DTM. This could improve SDR content as well as HDR content. This would technically be a dynamic-laser-level control (allow me to coin the acronym DLC for Dynamic Laser Control, or if already coined by someone else, refer to it), but it would be one that works a whole lot better than anything available. This is because the laser level needs to be chosen using the first frame after a scene cut, and not any where else. I think the lower native contrast of DLP's make them a great candidate for what the Radiance Pro could do for DLC using the Lumagen DTM technology.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> I do not like dynamic iris', and so far I do not like dynamic laser controls. They do not work well enough. These are both on my list of "Demo Features." What I mean is, like frame-interpolation, one can come up with a great demo, but they fall down on real content.
> 
> The Radiance Pro, since it has the best scene detection, and DTM, can do a much better job of controlling the laser level and in conjunction use the DTM to change the image transfer function to match the adjusted laser level. I know our RS4500 could be taken from very good contrast, to amazing real-world-content contrast. The Radiance Pro DTM would choose exactly the right laser-level, and exactly the right transfer function to match for each scene.
> 
> I actually suggested to JVC that if JVC gave the Radiance Pro HDMI Info-Frame control for the laser level it would allow the Radiance Pro to dramatically improve the real-content dynamic range and contrast. I was told "not going to happen." I figured as much but I wanted to make the offer.
> 
> =====
> 
> I will work with any projector company that is interested in much better real-world image dynamic range and contrast performance on the implementation of a laser-level control using the Lumagen DTM. This could improve SDR content as well as HDR content. This would technically be a dynamic-laser-level control (allow me to coin the acronym DLC for Dynamic Laser Control, or if already coined by someone else, refer to it), but it would be one that works a whole lot better than anything available. This is because the laser level needs to be chosen using the first frame after a scene cut, and not any where else. I think the lower native contrast of DLP's make them a great candidate for what the Radiance Pro could do for DLC using the Lumagen DTM technology.


I am in full agreement, hopefully a projector company bites on this offer. It would be such a synergistic approach.


----------



## OzHDHT

jrp said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> I do not like dynamic iris', and so far I do not like dynamic laser controls. They do not work well enough. These are both on my list of "Demo Features." What I mean is, like frame-interpolation, one can come up with a great demo, but they fall down on real content.
> 
> The Radiance Pro, since it has the best scene detection, and DTM, can do a much better job of controlling the laser level and in conjunction use the DTM to change the image transfer function to match the adjusted laser level. I know our RS4500 could be taken from very good contrast, to amazing real-world-content contrast. The Radiance Pro DTM would choose exactly the right laser-level, and exactly the right transfer function to match for each scene.
> 
> I actually suggested to JVC that if JVC gave the Radiance Pro HDMI Info-Frame control for the laser level it would allow the Radiance Pro to dramatically improve the real-content dynamic range and contrast. I was told "not going to happen." I figured as much but I wanted to make the offer.
> 
> =====
> 
> I will work with any projector company that is interested in much better real-world image dynamic range and contrast performance on the implementation of a laser-level control using the Lumagen DTM. This could improve SDR content as well as HDR content. This would technically be a dynamic-laser-level control (allow me to coin the acronym DLC for Dynamic Laser Control, or if already coined by someone else, refer to it), but it would be one that works a whole lot better than anything available. This is because the laser level needs to be chosen using the first frame after a scene cut, and not any where else. I think the lower native contrast of DLP's make them a great candidate for what the Radiance Pro could do for DLC using the Lumagen DTM technology.


That's a shame JVC didn't want to get together on that one, what a fantastic way to enhance the RS4500. Maybe it was too much of an enhancement towards what they want to be able to promote when they finally come up with a RS4500 successor. Pity we don't have any guys who can 'hack' into the RS4500 firmware to write some code to enable this functionality with the Lumagen.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

OzHDHT said:


> That's a shame JVC didn't want to get together on that one, what a fantastic way to enhance the RS4500. Maybe it was too much of an enhancement towards what they want to be able to promote when they finally come up with a RS4500 successor. Pity we don't have any guys who can 'hack' into the RS4500 firmware to write some code to enable this functionality with the Lumagen.


At this point, isn't it more like "IF" JVC comes up with a successor to the RS4500? Or has anyone heard anything concrete about a successor?


----------



## OzHDHT

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> At this point, isn't it more like "IF" JVC comes up with a successor to the RS4500? Or has anyone heard anything concrete about a successor?


No Steve, no one has as yet. It is purely speculative still at this stage.


----------



## Clark Burk

I think all the manufacturers are really worried about the supply of chips and parts right now. Just making enough projectors to meet current demand is a big enough challenge without sweetening the deal with a new model.


----------



## chickberger

Following Problem:

I have a Radiance Pro 4242 and a Sony 870ES. Now when i view this test image on the Oppo 203 or a PC (resolution set to 3840x2160px) *without* the Lumagen it will display it 1:1 natively and you can see all the 1px vertical lines and 1px chess patterns just fine.

Once i connect the Lumagen to my chain i can't see the 1px lines and patterns anymore, they are just not visible anymore. (you can only see the bg) Also the fonts getting a little distorted and especially on a PC desktop you get the feeling that there is a little scaling added and it doesn't look as sharp anymore.

Some things i noted / tested:

The Sony is connected directly to the output of the Lumagen (projector aspect ratio is set to normal so there is no zoom involved, RC is off, Automatic convergence on the sony is also off)
My Yamaha A2070 AVR outputs to the Lumagen input 1. Since it works over the AVR without the lumagen i don't think that the AVR messes something up.
Factory resettet my lumagen to make sure i didn't messed up somewhere
Tested various chroma settings on both the lumagen and pc / oppo to make sure its not a chroma subsampling problem. First i tested with 4:2:2 though as stated in the Lumagen manual.
If i set my PC and my lumagen both to 4096x2160 and display the image 1:1 in photoshop (since the image is UHD and therefore would get scaled for 4096) it will display just fine. It *only* happens for 3840x2160.

Any ideas would be highly appreciated. Really tested every setting i could think of but since it works just fine out of the box without the lumagen there has to be some setting iam not aware of.

Thanks


----------



## avsform1

So I started this thread back in 2015. I have and still use the old school Radiance XD and I just recently upgraded to a Pro unit this week. For the 1st time I see a significant improvement in 4k UHD/HDR over my 3 Plasma (Pioneer 141, Samsung F8500 and my Panasonic VT60) 1080P. I purchased a LG C6 in 2017 and a Sony A1E in 2018. These set to my eyes had only improved in terms of black level for the most part. 2 nights ago I slipped in the recently purchased 4242+ with my A1E via an Nvidia Shield Pro and the picture quality was fantastic. I selected a movie on Prime called "Without Remorse" and the detail was incredible. There were some scenes that looked somewhat "diffused" and not sure why... maybe those particle scenes were just bad shots ... Anyhow I will slip the Pro in with my LG OLED and my JVC projector and see it has the same affect as it did with the A1E. Eventually it will permanently used with my A1E and the JVC projector feed by an Oppo 203. Time to break out the calibration gear and tune it in and make it look even better. It's gonna take some time going through this thread to see what quirks users had with the 4xxx series of the Lumagen. It finally means I will finally offload my Plasmas at least 1 of them.


----------



## chickberger

Coming closer ...

When i input 3840x2160 with 25hz or below it will output everything correctly. (output same hz as input) If i use >25hz (no matter the input device) it looks like it will set a Hres of 1920px instead of 3840. At least thats what it tells me on Info pg4 and also thats what the scaling of the output kind of looks like. Once i go 25hz or below it shows 3840 for HRes and the image looks perfect.

Any suggestions or is this something that maybe got fixed already with a firmware update (if its a bug)?

Edit: Latest firmware doesn't help.


----------



## CP850-CLED

Has anyone else had issues in upgrading to the new AppleTV through a lumagen?


----------



## bobof

CP850-CLED said:


> Has anyone else had issues in upgrading to the new AppleTV through a lumagen?


I have an ATV4KGen2 and in general it has been working well, not had anything significantly different to the ATV4KGen1 it replaced.
I've had a couple of audio glitches though recently with the advent of the Dolby Atmos / Spatial Audio update, and am in the process of trying to work out what is causing them - image is unaffected when they happen. They don't happen very often though which means I'm going to have to have a bit of a session to try figure out where it is happening.

I should say I'm sure I've seen at least one post in the ATV thread mentioning similar without Radiance (though I couldn't find it again, so re-posted a question there), so I don't think at this stage it is related to the Lumagen specifically, and might be more a question about the new ATV4KGen2. Given there are only some marginal performance gains to be had at the moment, plus a bit more HDR at 60Hz, I'm not sure it's worth upgrading...


----------



## bobof

I should add, the Gen2 is running 14.7 beta software, which I guess could also be implicated. I'm probably going to spend a little while comparing apples-for-apples the ATV4kGen1 and 2 in use and see if I can see any pattern in the behaviour.


----------



## OzHDHT

CP850-CLED said:


> Has anyone else had issues in upgrading to the new AppleTV through a lumagen?


Zero problem at all with my new Apple TV and Lumagen into RS4500. Changed over from existing 4K.


----------



## garyolearysteele

chickberger said:


> Coming closer ...
> 
> When i input 3840x2160 with 25hz or below it will output everything correctly. (output same hz as input) If i use >25hz (no matter the input device) it looks like it will set a Hres of 1920px instead of 3840. At least thats what it tells me on Info pg4 and also thats what the scaling of the output kind of looks like. Once i go 25hz or below it shows 3840 for HRes and the image looks perfect.
> 
> Any suggestions or is this something that maybe got fixed already with a firmware update (if its a bug)?
> 
> Edit: Latest firmware doesn't help.


I’m sure you already have but your best bet is to email lumagen support. My first guess was Digital Focus optimiser on the Sony but you have RC disabled. Have you checked the signal type in the Sony info screen to see if with and without lumagen is the same format, e.g 2020 vs 709... also maybe check if Smooth Gradation is enabled, if so there might be something applied by the lumagen CMS that causes that to smooth out the lines. I have mine on and it does distort those fine calibration images, but it also cuts down banding.
Also I’d check the sharpening settings, press right arrow on the remote (I think, maybe left  )...
I’m no lumagen expert tho, best tho ask the man who is, Jim should respond to emails fairly quickly, normally does.


----------



## jbrinegar

CP850-CLED said:


> Has anyone else had issues in upgrading to the new AppleTV through a lumagen?


 No problems for me going from 4k gen 1 to 4k gen 2 (Netflix, iTunes, dis+, Apple TV+, prime)


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…I’m having an issue with NLS…clearly some settings I have wrong…when I hit the 1.85 button and then NLS, shouldn't my scope screen fill? Actually my normal non NLS 1.85 looks vertically stretched and when I hit the NLS button it does stretch horizontally but does not fill the screen…perhaps someone could point me to the proper areas in the manual as AR control appears to be in a few different sections…thanks

edit…I’ve gone back to factory defaults and will wait for input from someone…thanks

edit 2…working now after some tweaks…Interesting stretch for sure…may take a bit of getting use to


----------



## jrp

Random comment of the day:

For NLS, the "center section stretch" values were not optimal for all source aspects (all were 18% center-section-stretch). In the last release or two, we have changed the default center-section-stretch percentage. If you do a Factory Reset with the latest release you will get the new NLS center-section-stretch amounts. If you want to just enter them, here is the new list of default values for center-section-stretch. Note that these assume a screen aspect of 2.40. Here they are:

Input Aspect Percent
1.78 18%
1.85 15%
1.90 13%
2.00 10%
2.20 7%
2.35 0% Not sure NLS is even allowed for 2.35
2.40 n/a

The idea I used for these is the center-section-stretch is roughly half of the linear-stretch output-aspect to source-aspect ratio.

Since these are a per source aspect, per input, per input memory, this is of course some work. If you have not modified input settings, you can instead do a "Factory Reset" in the Save menu, but select "all input memories" (not sure of the exact name) for the scope to factory reset.

Make sure to Save your changes.


----------



## blake

I am really disappointed to learn today that the Lumagen RP cannot properly display 3D content with a Panamorph DCR lens in place. At least with my JVC RS4500 which doesn’t have internal anamorphic scaling. I didn't ever think I would need internal video scaling from my projector, with an expensive external video processor attached !

The Lumagen is such a powerful video processor. I am surprised it can’t scale 3D content (which, after all , is only 1080p). Is this a technical limitation, or something that Lumagen did not have time or desire to implement yet ? If the latter, please add this support ! I understand the competitor product out there is adding full 3D support soon.


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> I am really disappointed to learn today (from Kris Deering) that the Lumagen RP cannot properly display 3D content with a Panamorph DCR lens in place. At least with my JVC RS4500 which doesn’t have internal anamorphic scaling. I didn't ever think I would need internal video scaling from my projector, with an expensive external video processor attached !
> 
> The Lumagen is such a powerful video processor. I am surprised it can’t scale 3D content (which, after all , is only 1080p). Is this a technical limitation, or something that Lumagen did not have time or desire to implement yet ? If the latter, please add this support ! I understand the competitor product out there is adding full 3D support soon.


That is not what I said. The Lumagen can process 3D without ANY issues at all. YOUR projector (the RS4500) is the problem here, not the Lumagen. The JVC cannot take a scaled 3D image and it won't take a 2140x1080 image, which is what would be required from the Lumagen to display it properly with the DCR lens in place. On top of that, the RS4500 lacks ANY processing for a DCR lens internally, so you can't work around it if you want the full performance of the lens (you can just output 1080P 3D, and the Lumagen will do the vertical stretching required, but the image will not fill the full width of your screen with the DCR). 

So saying this is a limitation of the Lumagen is wrong, it is a limitation of your projector. There are better work arounds in the RS1000/2000/3000 as they have DCR processing, so you can work around this easier. Sony has this as well.


----------



## blake

Kris Deering said:


> That is not what I said. The Lumagen can process 3D without ANY issues at all. YOUR projector (the RS4500) is the problem here, not the Lumagen. The JVC cannot take a scaled 3D image and it won't take a 2140x1080 image, which is what would be required from the Lumagen to display it properly with the DCR lens in place. On top of that, the RS4500 lacks ANY processing for a DCR lens internally, so you can't work around it if you want the full performance of the lens (you can just output 1080P 3D, and the Lumagen will do the vertical stretching required, but the image will not fill the full width of your screen with the DCR).
> 
> So saying this is a limitation of the Lumagen is wrong, it is a limitation of your projector. There are better work arounds in the RS1000/2000/3000 as they have DCR processing, so you can work around this easier. Sony has this as well.


Sorry- thanks for clarifying this. 

I assume there is no way for JVC to upgrade the firmware on the 4500 to allow it to ex. accept 2140x1080 from a Lumagen since presumably they would have done this already, if it were that simple. 

I guess there is no way to view 1080p 3D content with the 4500 and dcr in place, without its proportions being distorted ? Do you envision any type of solution in the future ?


----------



## ShadeRF

Kris Deering said:


> That is not what I said. The Lumagen can process 3D without ANY issues at all. YOUR projector (the RS4500) is the problem here, not the Lumagen. The JVC cannot take a scaled 3D image and it won't take a 2140x1080 image, which is what would be required from the Lumagen to display it properly with the DCR lens in place. On top of that, the RS4500 lacks ANY processing for a DCR lens internally, so you can't work around it if you want the full performance of the lens (you can just output 1080P 3D, and the Lumagen will do the vertical stretching required, but the image will not fill the full width of your screen with the DCR).
> 
> So saying this is a limitation of the Lumagen is wrong, it is a limitation of your projector. There are better work arounds in the RS1000/2000/3000 as they have DCR processing, so you can work around this easier. Sony has this as well.


I'm curious what the solution for the RS3000 is. I initially reported the issue when these projectors first came out and never circled back to it after their fix wasn't a true fix, specifically for scope 3D content as you still wind up iwth black bars on the side.


----------



## Kris Deering

ShadeRF said:


> I'm curious what the solution for the RS3000 is. I initially reported the issue when these projectors first came out and never circled back to it after their fix wasn't a true fix, specifically for scope 3D content as you still wind up iwth black bars on the side.


With the new models, for 3D just setup a lens memory that uses the DCR anamorphic modes (C and D). So you have to output standard 1080p and 16x9.


----------



## Kris Deering

blake said:


> Sorry- thanks for clarifying this.
> 
> I assume there is no way for JVC to upgrade the firmware on the 4500 to allow it to ex. accept 2140x1080 from a Lumagen since presumably they would have done this already, if it were that simple.
> 
> I guess there is no way to view 1080p 3D content with the 4500 and dcr in place, without its proportions being distorted ? Do you envision any type of solution in the future ?


As far as I know, no upgrade for the 4500 unfortunately. You can still view with DCR in place, it just won’t fit full width and may be slightly distorted optically. I may play around with it on my RS3000 and see what may help.


----------



## Sandel

blake said:


> I guess there is no way to view 1080p 3D content with the 4500 and dcr in place, without its proportions being distorted ? Do you envision any type of solution in the future ?


Well, this is exactly the configuration I have: JVC RS4500 with Lumagen Radiance Pro and Paladin DCR lens permanently in place. And 3D is NOT a problem at all. No distortion or anything.


----------



## bobof

I don't have a DCR lens, so forgive if the following is a dumb idea... but for this 3D issue, to fill the whole screen, assuming you have spare throw couldn't you use a lens memory in the RS4500 to zoom the 16:9 portion of the panel to the whole screen width with DCR in. place, and then adjust your aspect setup in the Radiance such that you only use the equivalent 17:9 portion of height of the panel? Then the DCR lens would expand that to fill the whole screen? So you'd output your image within 1920x1016 pixels. You're not quite getting all the benefit of the DCR, but you should still be getting more vertical pixel fill than someone not using any A lens with scope 3D content.


----------



## dlinsley

I've not viewed 3D for a while on my RS3000, but had been experimenting with using an aspect setting of 2.22 in the Lumagen to achieve that (16/9 * 1.25 of the DCR) in addition to the lens memory. This was before JVC added mode D for 3D source to the RS3000 etc, but worked well.


----------



## Kris Deering

Sandel said:


> Well, this is exactly the configuration I have: JVC RS4500 with Lumagen Radiance Pro and Paladin DCR lens permanently in place. And 3D is NOT a problem at all. No distortion or anything.


What output resolution and aspect are you using from the Lumagen? You can't output 21:9 for the panel resolution that the DCR is expecting, so there has to be some kind of compromise with a DCR based lens (the standard Paladin would be fine). One could setup a lens memory that zooms out a bit and probably get away with it, but I'd like to hear how you are managing to do something that doesn't seem possible without some type of compromise.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I don't have a DCR lens, so forgive if the following is a dumb idea... but for this 3D issue, to fill the whole screen, assuming you have spare throw couldn't you use a lens memory in the RS4500 to zoom the 16:9 portion of the panel to the whole screen width with DCR in. place, and then adjust your aspect setup in the Radiance such that you only use the equivalent 17:9 portion of height of the panel? Then the DCR lens would expand that to fill the whole screen? So you'd output your image within 1920x1016 pixels. You're not quite getting all the benefit of the DCR, but you should still be getting more vertical pixel fill than someone not using any A lens with scope 3D content.


The DCR is not an expansion lens, it is a compression lens. It is also designed for a 21:9 image, which is why it is only recommended for 4096 based projectors. The standard Paladin is designed for 16x9 based projectors. So in this case neither the Lumagen nor the JVC can do the proper scaling to take the 16x9 based content to full panel width. The vertical stretch is not an issue (for the lens to then squeeze back down).


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> The DCR is not an expansion lens, it is a compression lens. It is also designed for a 21:9 image, which is why it is only recommended for 4096 based projectors. The standard Paladin is designed for 16x9 based projectors. So in this case neither the Lumagen nor the JVC can do the proper scaling to take the 16x9 based content to full panel width. The vertical stretch is not an issue (for the lens to then squeeze back down).


Regardless of what it's doing, does that mean you have to live with borders at the side for 3D? Can't you just zoom them off the edge of the screen using the projector lens zoom? Sure, you're not using the panel width like the intention was (the DCR is looking at a different 17:9 section of the panel), but you're also not having to move the DCR lens out of the way.

It seems that you are saying with the DCR lens on a 2.4 screen / RS4500 that you have to live with borders left / right for 3D, which seems terrible (if you care about 3D content at all).


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Regardless of what it's doing, does that mean you have to live with borders at the side for 3D? Can't you just zoom them off the edge of the screen using the projector lens zoom? Sure, you're not using the panel width like the intention was (the DCR is looking at a different 17:9 section of the panel), but you're also not having to move the DCR lens out of the way.
> 
> It seems that you are saying with the DCR lens on a 2.4 screen / RS4500 that you have to live with borders left / right for 3D, which seems terrible (if you care about 3D content at all).


Of course you can setup another zoom so long as the projector has range. This means you are gonna crop a bit off the top of the image, so it is just a matter of what bothers you. There are workarounds for sure, there is just no perfect solution like there is for any other content. The percentage of my clients that this is an issue for is probably less than 5% as it is becoming increasingly rare that any of them even care about 3D in the first place.


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> Of course you can setup another zoom so long as the projector has range. This means you are gonna crop a bit off the top of the image, so it is just a matter of what bothers you. There are workarounds for sure, there is just no perfect solution like there is for any other content. The percentage of my clients that this is an issue for is probably less than 5% as it is becoming increasingly rare that any of them even care about 3D in the first place.


I like 3D 

what's the best approach with a sony and a DCR lens?


----------



## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> I like 3D
> 
> what's the best approach with a sony and a DCR lens?


For 3D output 1080p from the Lumagen and have the Sony do the DCR processing.


----------



## bjorg

Roland Janus said:


> I like 3D
> 
> what's the best approach with a sony and a DCR lens?


So do I! 😁


----------



## Sandel

Kris Deering said:


> What output resolution and aspect are you using from the Lumagen? You can't output 21:9 for the panel resolution that the DCR is expecting, so there has to be some kind of compromise with a DCR based lens (the standard Paladin would be fine). One could setup a lens memory that zooms out a bit and probably get away with it, but I'd like to hear how you are managing to do something that doesn't seem possible without some type of compromise.


No compromise, AFAIK. Output resolution is 4096x2160 for Paladin DCR with 21:9 setup in the Lumagen.
When 3D input is detected, the output switches to "Frame packing" mode, showing a full 16:9 image within the 21:9 screen. No zooming or stretching involved.


----------



## bjorg

Sandel said:


> No compromise, AFAIK. Output resolution is 4096x2160 for Paladin DCR with 21:9 setup in the Lumagen.
> When 3D input is detected, the output switches to "Frame packing" mode, showing a full 16:9 image within the 21:9 screen. No zooming or stretching involved.


I've found the 3D image to be a bit blocky on my screen. I think it has to do with the fact that it can't be upscaled to 4K. What has your experience been like?


----------



## bobof

Sandel said:


> No compromise, AFAIK. Output resolution is 4096x2160 for Paladin DCR with 21:9 setup in the Lumagen.
> When 3D input is detected, the output switches to "Frame packing" mode, showing a full 16:9 image within the 21:9 screen. No zooming or stretching involved.


Are you only talking about 16:9 3D content? That would only fill the centre portion of the screen anyway without NLS engaged, and should work fine I understand. Or 2.4:1 3D content too?

Can you capture what the info screens of the OSD are saying when you play back 3D? As it seems what you are saying contradicts Kris's information (which is something I'd understood to be true, that they only supported 1920x1080 frame packed).

Are you really sending 4096x2160 x 24p FP 3D? Or is it doing something fun like sending 2048x1080 x24p FP?


----------



## Sandel

bobof said:


> Are you only talking about 16:9 3D content? That would only fill the centre portion of the screen anyway without NLS engaged, and should work fine I understand. Or 2.4:1 3D content too?
> 
> Can you capture what the info screens of the OSD are saying when you play back 3D? As it seems what you are saying contradicts Kris's information (which is something I'd understood to be true, that they only supported 1920x1080 frame packed).
> 
> Are you really sending 4096x2160 x 24p FP 3D? Or is it doing something fun like sending 2048x1080 x24p FP?


Okay, sort of a misunderstanding: Of course it's only 1080p for 3D as there's no such thing as 4k 3D.
What I meant to say was that my 2D setting is 4096x2160p and that I don't have to switch or scale anything with my Paladin DCR in front of the projector to watch 3d content.


----------



## Sandel

bobof said:


> Are you only talking about 16:9 3D content? That would only fill the centre portion of the screen anyway without NLS engaged, and should work fine I understand. Or 2.4:1 3D content too?


... and it's 2.40:1 3D content too, filling the complete screen - without NLS enganged.


----------



## Sandel

bjorg said:


> I've found the 3D image to be a bit blocky on my screen. I think it has to do with the fact that it can't be upscaled to 4K. What has your experience been like?


Though it's only 1080p, the image looks really nice. No blockyness so far.


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## MDesigns

Sandel said:


> Okay, sort of a misunderstanding: Of course it's only 1080p for 3D as there's no such thing as 4k 3D.
> What I meant to say was that my 2D setting is 4096x2160p and that I don't have to switch or scale anything with my Paladin DCR in front of the projector to watch 3d content.
> 
> View attachment 3144943
> 
> 
> View attachment 3144944


Can you share the info screens when playing 2D and 3D? Isnt that a setup screen?


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## Sandel

MDesigns said:


> Can you share the info screens when playing 2D and 3D? Isnt that a setup screen?












Yes, the other screenshots were showing setup screens. Here comes the 3D info screen. But except for showing the 1080p IN <-> OUT setting, it's maybe not so helpful, I guess.


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## MDesigns

Sandel said:


> View attachment 3144962
> 
> 
> Yes, the other screenshots were showing setup screens. Here comes the 3D info screen. But except for showing the 1080p IN <-> OUT setting, it's maybe not so helpful, I guess.


Thanks. I guess it shows that you are not using any special mode for 3D, just standard 1080P. That should not fill your whole screen width unless you are zooming between 2D and 3D and using full width for 2D. Also should be little bit squeezed horizontally.


----------



## Sandel

MDesigns said:


> Thanks. I guess it shows that you are not using any special mode for 3D, just standard 1080P. That should not fill your whole screen width unless you are zooming between 2D and 3D and using full width for 2D. Also should be little bit squeezed horizontally.


You're right, no special 3D mojo... And yes, there's a bit of an "unfilled" area on the screen. But I consider this as neglectable...


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## bobof

Sandel said:


> You're right, no special 3D mojo... And yes, there's a bit of an "unfilled" area on the screen. But I consider this as neglectable...
> View attachment 3144975


LOL... ok, so you have exactly the issue that Kris was describing. 
It would annoy the living daylight out of me, but if it doesn't bother you then all-good!


----------



## MDesigns

Sandel said:


> You're right, no special 3D mojo... And yes, there's a bit of an "unfilled" area on the screen. But I consider this as neglectable...
> View attachment 3144975


Thank you for confirming, since that was the whole point of the debate. Picture shows on the screen and can look alright, but you get black bands on the sides and the image is squeezed horizontally a bit. Whether you make it a problem or not I guess is personal preference


----------



## sor

bobof said:


> LOL... ok, so you have exactly the issue that Kris was describing.
> It would annoy the living daylight out of me, but if it doesn't bother you then all-good!


Just need automated masking to round out the Rs4500 + Paladin + Lumagen combo!


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## bobof

sor said:


> Just need automated masking to round out the Rs4500 + Paladin + Lumagen combo!


Sounds like a bad way to solve it to me, who wants their 3D titles using up less of their screen than 2D? If anything more likely to be the opposite.
Though I'd never argue against more masking. If I could afford it I'd have a full wall 4 way electric masking screen - but as a pauper I'll have to make do with just 2-way top / bottom electric masks...  
Does make me smile every time the Lumagen masterfully works out the AR and my masks are auto-magically commanded to the correct position though. For me it is one of the highlights of using the cinema room, just completes the presentation and experience so much.


----------



## adrake23

Does anyone know what's causing this? I have these dislocations sometimes when scenes have bright HDR.



























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sandel

bobof said:


> LOL... ok, so you have exactly the issue that Kris was describing.
> It would annoy the living daylight out of me, but if it doesn't bother you then all-good!


😂 Wasn't aware that Kris was talking about THIS. But great we clarified it... 😂


----------



## jrp

adrake23 said:


> Does anyone know what's causing this? I have these dislocations sometimes when scenes have bright HDR.


The bad color looks like image overflow. This could be a configuration issue, or possibly a bug you have discovered. This bug could be in the projector, or it could be an overflow in the Pro.

Try raising the Max Light and Dyn Pad. See if it resolves the issue. Also with current software you can try doing a temporary factory reset MENU 0999 (but do not Save). See if this affects the bad color. If it resolve it could be a corrupt setting. If you then want to get back to your Saved settings (and you did not do a Save), just put the Pro in standby and backon.

If you have a 4K TV send it the same signal with the same settings. The settings would not be the correct ones for a TV when you setup for a projector, but if the image color errors go away, then this points to a calculation overflow in the projector.

If the issue persists, take pictures of the four Info Pages (with no OSD on-screen, press OK, take picture of Info area, then repeat three times) download your configuration and email these to lumagen.com support email with the config file. Please include the movie and timestamp the the bad scenes and which software release you are on (you should be on the most recent when you report a bug). We can then investigate.


----------



## ShadeRF

Kris Deering said:


> With the new models, for 3D just setup a lens memory that uses the DCR anamorphic modes (C and D). So you have to output standard 1080p and 16x9.


Setting the lumagen to 16x9 and setting anamorphic c in the projector still shows small black bars on the sides for scope content. What am I missing?


----------



## DVD MAN

I am considering a Lumagen to pair up with my JVC NX9 but I have some concerns.In the past I owned a Radiance XE and I notice an issue when scaling 480i dvds jaggies on edges. It was very noticeable with the rolling letters of Star Wars. Then in the AVS forum I read this post yesterday from Stacey Spears:

A quick note on the scaling pattern. We created a 2.39 version. It is meant for those using projectors with wider than 1.78:1 screens. It will also make use of subtitles to test advanced processing in boxes like Envy and Lumagen. There are three rows of subtitles planned that turn on and off. e.g. The Envy can auto zoom in/out when subtitles appear to make sure they are not cropped. In addition, the parrot in the montage is good to test scaling. On the Lumagen, I saw chroma moiré on the parrots feathers on his 2.35:1 screen. This is probably what initially started me on the 2.39:1 version of the scaling pattern. If you are going to crop off the bars and scale the image to fill a 2.3n:1 screen, you probably want to know the quality of the scaling.

Is this an issue for everything it scales?


----------



## adrake23

jrp said:


> The bad color looks like image overflow. This could be a configuration issue, or possibly a bug you have discovered. This bug could be in the projector, or it could be an overflow in the Pro.
> 
> Try raising the Max Light and Dyn Pad. See if it resolves the issue. Also with current software you can try doing a temporary factory reset MENU 0999 (but do not Save). See if this affects the bad color. If it resolve it could be a corrupt setting. If you then want to get back to your Saved settings (and you did not do a Save), just put the Pro in standby and backon.
> 
> If you have a 4K TV send it the same signal with the same settings. The settings would not be the correct ones for a TV when you setup for a projector, but if the image color errors go away, then this points to a calculation overflow in the projector.
> 
> If the issue persists, take pictures of the four Info Pages (with no OSD on-screen, press OK, take picture of Info area, then repeat three times) download your configuration and email these to lumagen.com support email with the config file. Please include the movie and timestamp the the bad scenes and which software release you are on (you should be on the most recent when you report a bug). We can then investigate.


Thanks Jim. I will follow-up shortly after I have completed the instructions that you provided.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> I am considering a Lumagen to pair up with my JVC NX9 but I have some concerns.In the past I owned a Radiance XE and I notice an issue when scaling 480i dvds jaggies on edges. It was very noticeable with the rolling letters of Star Wars. Then in the AVS forum I read this post yesterday from Stacey Spears:
> 
> A quick note on the scaling pattern. We created a 2.39 version. It is meant for those using projectors with wider than 1.78:1 screens. It will also make use of subtitles to test advanced processing in boxes like Envy and Lumagen. There are three rows of subtitles planned that turn on and off. e.g. The Envy can auto zoom in/out when subtitles appear to make sure they are not cropped. In addition, the parrot in the montage is good to test scaling. On the Lumagen, I saw chroma moiré on the parrots feathers on his 2.35:1 screen. This is probably what initially started me on the 2.39:1 version of the scaling pattern. If you are going to crop off the bars and scale the image to fill a 2.3n:1 screen, you probably want to know the quality of the scaling.
> 
> Is this an issue for everything it scales?


It is EXTREMELY rare to see scaling artifacts with the Radiance. I generally only notice them with 4K60 video based content that is scaled to show 16x9 within a 2.35 screen. That is something that will be addressed with the upcoming pipeline improvements. 

The clip that Stacey mentions with the parrot has detail that is near nyquist and the moire he is talking about it extremely subtle. I see the same thing from some displays that are not even scaling that clip. I wouldn't be surprised if that is resolved with the pipeline stuff as well. I also don't remember if I had the early image enhancement stuff at that time (before official release) and if that was exaggerating it at the time.


----------



## avsform1

Is there a reason why my 4242 Pro outputs SDR when my OPPO 203 sends HDR? Confirmed that it is outputting HDR with my LG OLED. The LG OLED pops up an indicator signifying HDR signal is being received. Also what determines if you use 18Ghz vs 9Ghz inputs.


----------



## DVD MAN

Kris Deering said:


> It is EXTREMELY rare to see scaling artifacts with the Radiance. I generally only notice them with 4K60 video based content that is scaled to show 16x9 within a 2.35 screen. That is something that will be addressed with the upcoming pipeline improvements.
> 
> The clip that Stacey mentions with the parrot has detail that is near nyquist and the moire he is talking about it extremely subtle. I see the same thing from some displays that are not even scaling that clip. I wouldn't be surprised if that is resolved with the pipeline stuff as well. I also don't remember if I had the early image enhancement stuff at that time (before official release) and if that was exaggerating it at the time.


Thank you Kris for your reply. Since I am using a 16:9 100" 1.3 gain screen that scaling issue should not be visible correct? I want to purchase and take advantage of all the the features the Lumagen has to offer but I don't want to be let down with any artifact issues cause by scaling.


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Thank you Kris for your reply. Since I am using a 16:9 100" 1.3 gain screen that scaling issue should not be visible correct? I want to purchase and take advantage of all the the features the Lumagen has to offer but I don't want to be let down with any artifact issues cause by scaling.


correct. Non issue for you as you won’t be doing the aspect scaling they are talking about.


----------



## Kris Deering

avsform1 said:


> Is there a reason why my 4242 Pro outputs SDR when my OPPO 203 sends HDR? Confirmed that it is outputting HDR with my LG OLED. The LG OLED pops up an indicator signifying HDR signal is being received. Also what determines if you use 18Ghz vs 9Ghz inputs.


tone mapping is on by default


----------



## Kris Deering

Hello All. Just wanted to give you guys an update on some of the 3D testing I've been doing lately. For some reason I've had a few clients reach out about 3D support with the Lumagen and projectors that are using DCR lenses. After my testing I've found out quite a few things that I think will help clarify the ins and outs of 3D usage with one of these setups:

4K JVC Projectors (All NATIVE 4K projectors including 4500/1000/2000/3000/NX5/NX7/NX9): There is no way to do 3D processing in either the Lumagen OR the JVC itself that will allow for 3D to be displayed properly for the full panel width (4096) that is typically desired for a DCR lens system. Originally I was under the impression that JVC's Anamorphic C mode would work and the projector would do the proper scaling for the panel for the newer models, but this is NOT the case. I have confirmed this directly with JVC as well. So for those using ANY of the JVC projectors, you would want the 3D setup of the Lumagen to be for 1080p output in 3D and you can setup the output for the screen's aspect ratio so the Lumagen will still continue to do the vertical stretch required for the lens. Auto aspect ratio works as well. This will result in pillar boxing with scope content because only the 16x9 portion of the chip is being used. If this bothers you, I would suggest setting up a second lens memory on the JVC that makes the image fill the width and then use the masking function in the JVC to crop the image that is into the frame on the top and bottom. It is an unfortunate workaround, but there is no way to currently overcome the limitation of the JVC design.

(UPDATED) Sony projectors (native 4K): The same issue is present in that it cannot receive a 4096 image but I just recently did a Sony here locally and when I put the output to 1080p and standard 16x9 for the aspect ratio, the Sony internal processing DID allow for their anamorphic mode to work properly and scale to the full panel width. So they do not have the same issue. If you want to use Lumagen's auto aspect capabilities, you'll need to setup the output configuration for a scope screen WITHOUT a lens. 

I hope this helps those that are trying to make 3D work in these scenarios.


----------



## Karl Maga

Nice post @Kris Deering.

I‘ve never been willing to subject myself to active shutters and therefore don’t care about 3D, but some certainly do.


----------



## Kris Deering

Karl Maga said:


> Nice post @Kris Deering.
> 
> I‘ve never been willing to subject myself to active shutters and therefore don’t care about 3D, but some certainly do.


I'm the same way, I really don't care for 3D at all. But I realize there are those that do. 3D in the 4K world is quite complicated though and these projectors have their caveats. JVC especially when it comes not only to DCR support but also changing the orientation of their polarizer so that their own branded glasses don't work nearly as well as before with any screen that retains polarization. I feel this is something they should have addressed with new glasses or at least some kind of training/statement on the website and for their dealers.


----------



## ShadeRF

Kris Deering said:


> Hello All. Just wanted to give you guys an update on some of the 3D testing I've been doing lately. For some reason I've had a few clients reach out about 3D support with the Lumagen and projectors that are using DCR lenses. After my testing I've found out quite a few things that I think will help clarify the ins and outs of 3D usage with one of these setups:
> 
> 4K JVC Projectors (All NATIVE 4K projectors including 4500/1000/2000/3000/NX5/NX7/NX9): There is no way to do 3D processing in either the Lumagen OR the JVC itself that will allow for 3D to be displayed properly for the full panel width (4096) that is typically desired for a DCR lens system. Originally I was under the impression that JVC's Anamorphic C mode would work and the projector would do the proper scaling for the panel for the newer models, but this is NOT the case. I have confirmed this directly with JVC as well. So for those using ANY of the JVC projectors, you would want the 3D setup of the Lumagen to be for 1080p output in 3D and you can setup the output for the screen's aspect ratio so the Lumagen will still continue to do the vertical stretch required for the lens. Auto aspect ratio works as well. This will result in pillar boxing with scope content because only the 16x9 portion of the chip is being used. If this bothers you, I would suggest setting up a second lens memory on the JVC that makes the image fill the width and then use the masking function in the JVC to crop the image that is into the frame on the top and bottom. It is an unfortunate workaround, but there is no way to currently overcome the limitation of the JVC design.
> 
> Sony projectors (native 4K): The same issue is present in that it cannot receive a 4096 image but I just recently did a Sony here locally and when I put the output to 1080p and standard 16x9 for the aspect ratio, the Sony internal processing DID allow for their anamorphic mode to work properly and scale to the full panel width. So they do not have the same issue. HOWEVER, there is a caveat here. Because you have to use Sony's scaling for the anamorphic mode, you would have to setup the output aspect ratio as if you didn't have a lens if you want to use the auto aspect functionality of the Lumagen because the Sony is going to be stretching the image vertically. So you'd have to set this up in the STYLE mode you plan to use for this.
> 
> I hope this helps those that are trying to make 3D work in these scenarios.


Thanks for the follow up on this. Originally the Anamorphic C mode was completely busted and did not stretch vertically either. They did correct this in a later firmware but it's disappointing that they haven't completely fixed these modes for 3D when Sony has found a way to deal with this. Does the JVC simply not have the processing power to accomplish this or is there something else going on? Of course I know you can only tell us what JVC is willing to say. I've completely given up watching any scope 3D content on my projector because of this but I do enjoy the content and would love if they could come up with a suitable solution to this.


----------



## asharma

Kris Deering said:


> I'm the same way, I really don't care for 3D at all. But I realize there are those that do. 3D in the 4K world is quite complicated though and these projectors have their caveats. JVC especially when it comes not only to DCR support but also changing the orientation of their polarizer so that their own branded glasses don't work nearly as well as before with any screen that retains polarization. I feel this is something they should have addressed with new glasses or at least some kind of training/statement on the website and for their dealers.


Kris, sorry I’m unclear…Are your findings for only those who want 3D with DCR lens or 3D in general, no anamorphic lens, on a JVC projector with a Lumagen?

i have not tested 3D with the Lumagen in the loop yet…

Edit: I think u updated your post and I read it again. It’s regardless if u have a DCR or not…Will test also eventually…


----------



## sunnya23

I recently got back into 3D after finding out my Sony projector is 3D capable. Bought the 3D glasses they recommend for the projector, no anamorphic lens for me. Lumagen in the chain. As crazy as it sounds it was very simple for me. Popped the 3D Blu Ray into the player and my projector automatically went into the 3D picture mode. Watching something like Star Wars Episode 7 or Doctor Strange has been an incredible experience on my 144" 2.35:1 screen. I never really cared for 3D but at home it has been a blast to watch. I occasionally get ghosting but otherwise it has been awesome.


----------



## MOberhardt

sunnya23 said:


> I recently got back into 3D after finding out my Sony projector is 3D capable. Bought the 3D glasses they recommend for the projector, no anamorphic lens for me. Lumagen in the chain. As crazy as it sounds it was very simple for me. Popped the 3D Blu Ray into the player and my projector automatically went into the 3D picture mode. Watching something like Star Wars Episode 7 or Doctor Strange has been an incredible experience on my 144" 2.35:1 screen. I never really cared for 3D but at home it has been a blast to watch. I occasionally get ghosting but otherwise it has been awesome.


Yeah, I have and watch a lot of 3d, and movies like Tron Legacy, if it got a UHD, I can't say I'd take that over IMAX 3D... That movie was everyone who sees and hears it in my home cinema. And a projector vs last gen TV is another game changer. 3d movies that were reviewed and scorned in the back light LCD era are actually pretty good.


----------



## Kris Deering

asharma said:


> Kris, sorry I’m unclear…Are your findings for only those who want 3D with DCR lens or 3D in general, no anamorphic lens, on a JVC projector with a Lumagen?
> 
> i have not tested 3D with the Lumagen in the loop yet…
> 
> Edit: I think u updated your post and I read it again. It’s regardless if u have a DCR or not…Will test also eventually…


My comments are only for a DCR in the loop. There are zero issues with 3D playback otherwise.


----------



## sunnya23

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah, I have and watch a lot of 3d, and movies like Tron Legacy, if it got a UHD, I can't say I'd take that over IMAX 3D... That movie was everyone who sees and hears it in my home cinema. And a projector vs last gen TV is another game changer. 3d movies that were reviewed and scorned in the back light LCD era are actually pretty good.


Not to go too off track. Funny you bring up Tron. Of all the movies I've seen in my theater I think this one has been the best experience I've had in my home theater. The scene where Sam enters the arena with the crowd roaring and the light cycle chase begins I had goosebumps all over. In 3D this film is more akin to experiencing a ride. Loved the activation of 3D as soon as you enter the grid. The Daft Punk Score. Everything about this is just perfect. I also recommend Star Wars Episode 7 as it's honestly the best 3D I've seen in my setup. The depth and layering, especially the Millennium Falcon chase sequence, are thrilling from beginning to end.


----------



## docrog

sunnya23 said:


> Not to go too off track. Funny you bring up Tron. Of all the movies I've seen in my theater I think this one has been the best experience I've had in my home theater. The scene where Sam enters the arena with the crowd roaring and the light cycle chase begins I had goosebumps all over. In 3D this film is more akin to experiencing a ride. Loved the activation of 3D as soon as you enter the grid. The Daft Punk Score. Everything about this is just perfect. I also recommend Star Wars Episode 7 as it's honestly the best 3D I've seen in my setup. The depth and layering, especially the Millennium Falcon chase sequence, are thrilling from beginning to end.


As I've previously posted: a huge thumbs up for the 3D of "Sin City: A Dame to Kill For".


----------



## bowlingbeeg

Anyone know what the difference between standby power Normal vs Lowest is?


----------



## Technology3456

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah, I have and watch a lot of 3d, and movies like Tron Legacy, if it got a UHD, I can't say I'd take that over IMAX 3D... That movie was everyone who sees and hears it in my home cinema. And a projector vs last gen TV is another game changer. 3d movies that were reviewed and scorned in the back light LCD era are actually pretty good.


Agreed. I mean, it's 3D. It's the best, most immersive entertainment/art illusion possible outside of VR (which requires a full headset). If all else is equal, who wouldn't prefer 3D to 2D? It's one of the coolest such technologies ever invented. There is a reason many who saw Avatar in a good 3D cinema talks about it as like the pinnacle of cinematic immersion (visually). _But_, the issue is the glasses, eye strain, headaches, etc. The issue is, is there a way to achieve this experience, which most would otherwise agree is great, without really bad issues that ruin it?

And it depends on the person, and presumably on the setup. But it may be for some people, and I could turn out to be one of those people, that even a great 3D setup will not be comfortable to watch very much. The only way to find out is to go to a bunch of 3D movies in theaters, and try to figure out what setup they have, but even then you dont know how well the projectors were aligned that day, how recently they matched the bulb brightness of both projectors (if it's a stack), or even if it's a laser projector stack, there's also the question how well they match the colors of each projector, etc. The ideal way to test would be at home where you are in full control of all those variables, but who wants to pay for a 3D setup and go to all the trouble just to see if it bothers them or not? It's not exactly "advisable" but if you have enough interest in it, then...

The simplest way to get what should be a good experience is to get a single projector with great active 3D. But what happens if the shutter bothers you? How do you know if 3D is not for you period, or if you would actually love it if you had a passive stack without shutter? Then you're back to the same dilemma.

Because of how awesome 3D can be, I am certain it can become very popular, but only if these issues get solved, or at least if it doesn't get easier for the film-lover to figure out if a 3D setup exists that is comfortable for them, or not. But certainly to anyone who hasnt tried active 3D but has an active 3D projector, I would recommend trying it out! I can't comment on whether it's good for your eyes to watch _any _type of 3D regularly, long-term, but with that "disclaimer" out of the way, as far as enjoyment, you may really have a great time with it, at least with select movies from time to time.

And I really appreciate that the Lumagen team is supporting 3D for the people who do either enjoy it or want to try it, even though it is not as popular as 4K right now. It is a big selling point for me.


----------



## Venue

Did anyone ever debug and analyze the theatrical cut of Alien (1979) for the MaxCLL value with their Radiance Pro processor?


----------



## Kris Deering

Venue said:


> Did anyone ever debug and analyze the theatrical cut of Alien (1979) for the MaxCLL value with their Radiance Pro processor?


Are you just trying to figure out what it is? Fox typically does 1000 nit grades, but I'm not sure if they always report MaxCLL.


----------



## bobof

Venue said:


> Did anyone ever debug and analyze the theatrical cut of Alien (1979) for the MaxCLL value with their Radiance Pro processor?


There must be a hundred ways of getting that info - is there some reason you want to know what the Lumagen thinks it is in particular?


----------



## Venue

Kris Deering said:


> Are you just trying to figure out what it is? Fox typically does 1000 nit grades, but I'm not sure if they always report MaxCLL.





bobof said:


> There must be a hundred ways of getting that info - is there some reason you want to know what the Lumagen thinks it is in particular?


Thanks to you both, I'm just trying to figure out what the MaxCLL is for some titles not containing the metadata, I plan to create my own set of static curves (based on Javs).
This to avoid having to use only 1200 and 4000 nit curves, perhaps you could say I'm doing Panasonic's magic manually, I use OPPO 203, have to be native HDR10 out for full gamut.
I have the X7900/X790R/RS540, plan to create a 300, 500, 750, 900, 1200, 1500, 2000 etc. or similar curves, would this work if based on Javs design, just changing the range, basically?

Could also adjust the black floor on some problematic titles, like The Dark Knight and Interstellar, don't want to spend the UB9000 money and loose the convenience of the OPPO.
I absolutely do not mind changing curves based on the title, a good presentation takes time I'm ready to spend, curves take like 2 minutes to create.

Could have the perfect Goodfellas curve, you know?
If this wouldn't work the way I think it would, thanks for enlightening me.
I know the Panasonic defaults to a 1000 nits if there is no metadata present, would this be your highest recommendation?


----------



## bobof

Venue said:


> Thanks to you both, I'm just trying to figure out what the MaxCLL is for some titles not containing the metadata, I plan to create my own set of static curves (based on Javs).
> This to avoid having to use only 1200 and 4000 nit curves, perhaps you could say I'm doing Panasonic's magic manually, I use OPPO 203, have to be native HDR10 out for full gamut.
> I have the X7900/X790R/RS540, plan to create a 300, 500, 750, 900, 1200, 1500, 2000 etc. or similar curves, would this work if based on Javs design, just changing the range, basically?
> 
> Could also adjust the black floor on some problematic titles, like The Dark Knight and Interstellar, don't want to spend the UB9000 money and loose the convenience of the OPPO.
> I absolutely do not mind changing curves based on the title, a good presentation takes time I'm ready to spend, curves take like 2 minutes to create.
> 
> Could have the perfect Goodfellas curve, you know?
> If this wouldn't work the way I think it would, thanks for enlightening me.
> I know the Panasonic defaults to a 1000 nits if there is no metadata present, would this be your highest recommendation?


If you have the files on a computer, then there are ways to get this information by analysing each frame. That's the only way. 

Title MaxCLL is a particularly blunt instrument though, as a single bright pixel in the whole disc will set it. It's not really that useful for coming up with the most appropriate tone map.

More advanced methods would look at a whole title and histogram the entire disc and take a view on what pixels you were prepared to sacrifice on the altar.

The MaxCLL most typically reported in the Lumagen UI is the one declared in the HDMI stream, not the pixel analysis. There is a debug feature (or at least there was) that you could enable that would give some live-ish info out of the image pipeline with respect to actual measured MaxCLL etc, but really no-one cares anymore with a Lumagen as we all just let the DTM do its thing and sort it out.

It seems like your question doesn't really belong in this thread.


----------



## Venue

bobof said:


> It seems like your question doesn't really belong in this thread.


Well mate, you asked.


----------



## avsform1

Kris Deering said:


> tone mapping is on by default


Kris, correct me if I am wrong the Tone Mapping is really for projectors correct. Also any 18Ghz vs 9Ghz inputs, which and why are the selected?


----------



## Kris Deering

Kris Deering said:


> Hello All. Just wanted to give you guys an update on some of the 3D testing I've been doing lately. For some reason I've had a few clients reach out about 3D support with the Lumagen and projectors that are using DCR lenses. After my testing I've found out quite a few things that I think will help clarify the ins and outs of 3D usage with one of these setups:
> 
> 4K JVC Projectors (All NATIVE 4K projectors including 4500/1000/2000/3000/NX5/NX7/NX9): There is no way to do 3D processing in either the Lumagen OR the JVC itself that will allow for 3D to be displayed properly for the full panel width (4096) that is typically desired for a DCR lens system. Originally I was under the impression that JVC's Anamorphic C mode would work and the projector would do the proper scaling for the panel for the newer models, but this is NOT the case. I have confirmed this directly with JVC as well. So for those using ANY of the JVC projectors, you would want the 3D setup of the Lumagen to be for 1080p output in 3D and you can setup the output for the screen's aspect ratio so the Lumagen will still continue to do the vertical stretch required for the lens. Auto aspect ratio works as well. This will result in pillar boxing with scope content because only the 16x9 portion of the chip is being used. If this bothers you, I would suggest setting up a second lens memory on the JVC that makes the image fill the width and then use the masking function in the JVC to crop the image that is into the frame on the top and bottom. It is an unfortunate workaround, but there is no way to currently overcome the limitation of the JVC design.
> 
> Sony projectors (native 4K): The same issue is present in that it cannot receive a 4096 image but I just recently did a Sony here locally and when I put the output to 1080p and standard 16x9 for the aspect ratio, the Sony internal processing DID allow for their anamorphic mode to work properly and scale to the full panel width. So they do not have the same issue. HOWEVER, there is a caveat here. Because you have to use Sony's scaling for the anamorphic mode, you would have to setup the output aspect ratio as if you didn't have a lens if you want to use the auto aspect functionality of the Lumagen because the Sony is going to be stretching the image vertically. So you'd have to set this up in the STYLE mode you plan to use for this.
> 
> I hope this helps those that are trying to make 3D work in these scenarios.


Just wanted to follow up on this. I was thinking about it while driving yesterday.

For the Sony scenario, you SHOULD still be able to use auto aspect. You just setup the output for a scope screen WITHOUT a lens and it should work fine with Sony's DCR processing added. I'll edit the original post.


----------



## fatherom

Question for everyone:

I hooked my Nintendo switch to the lumagen for the first time. Was getting 60hz. Turned on game mode on the lumagen. Everything looked and played fine. 

Had a question about the range setting on the nintendo. It gives you the choices of auto/limited/full. I ended up going with auto (which looks the same as limited) and it looked fine. 

On the lumagen info screen it said the input was RGB-sdr709. Is this expected and ok? Considering that my output is 420-sdr709. 

Thanks

Chris


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> If you have the target set to 84C for the FPGA "Chip" (the default) and it gets above 84C, either there is an issue with the fan, or you have blocked some of the air vents, or the inlet air is too hot.
> 
> For 1U Radiance Pro, the inlet vent is on the bottom and must have free access to cool air. The outlet vents are on the top and must be clear of obstruction. For the past couple years 1U units have also had additional vents on the back. While these were not required I added them to reduce the static air pressure in the unit to allow the fan to run at a slower speed.
> 
> If you have the Radiance Pro 1U model in a rack Lumagen recommends a 1U gap below and above for airflow. Do not put the Radiance Pro over something that generates a lot of heat, such as a power amp. Also, do not put the Lumagen in a closed cabinet that does not have adequate airflow.
> 
> For 2U units both the inlet and outlet vents are on the back.
> 
> =====
> 
> If you have clear airflow below, behind, and above the Radiance Pro, and you still see the "Chip" temperature above 80C, then there is an issue with the fan. Some older 424X units and all 444X units must have the fan type programmed as part of our manufacturing process. There is a chance we didn't get this done with your unit. If you contact the lumagen.com support email, we can help you figure this out.


Jim, what happens if temps get too high, does the unit automatically shut down?


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## Surge2018

bearcat2002 said:


> Ok I couldn’t take it…switched to old 4K AppleTV and all looks perfect with Plex. Definitely a new Apple TV 4K issue and not Lumagen. Sorry folks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Odd. I have the new Apple TV 4K and the image looks the same as it did with my last gen Apple TV 4K. I would recommend checking your HDMI cables, and updating the ATV.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Surge2018 said:


> Jim, what happens if temps get too high, does the unit automatically shut down?


A warning screen will appear on the display stating the operation temp is too high and you should turn off and contact your dealer.


----------



## Surge2018

asharma said:


> Thanks, yes that’s what I have done but what mode should the jvc be set to? Just a User mode with gamma set to 2.4?


Sorry for the delay. I created SDR and HDR picture modes for the JVC.
HDR uses Wide 2020 color, Fan Speed High, and the Reference picture mode.
SDR is the same but uses 709 color, Fan Speed Low.

I haven’t calibrated it yet - the colors honestly look very accurate. My Sony was calibrated and I don’t feel as thought I’m missing anything in terms of color accuracy with the uncalibrated JVC (and I am somewhat of a color scientist by day!).


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> I do not like dynamic iris', and so far I do not like dynamic laser controls. They do not work well enough. These are both on my list of "Demo Features." What I mean is, like frame-interpolation, one can come up with a great demo, but they fall down on real content.
> 
> The Radiance Pro, since it has the best scene detection, and DTM, can do a much better job of controlling the laser level and in conjunction use the DTM to change the image transfer function to match the adjusted laser level. I know our RS4500 could be taken from very good contrast, to amazing real-world-content contrast. The Radiance Pro DTM would choose exactly the right laser-level, and exactly the right transfer function to match for each scene.
> 
> I actually suggested to JVC that if JVC gave the Radiance Pro HDMI Info-Frame control for the laser level it would allow the Radiance Pro to dramatically improve the real-content dynamic range and contrast. I was told "not going to happen." I figured as much but I wanted to make the offer.
> 
> =====
> 
> I will work with any projector company that is interested in much better real-world image dynamic range and contrast performance on the implementation of a laser-level control using the Lumagen DTM. This could improve SDR content as well as HDR content. This would technically be a dynamic-laser-level control (allow me to coin the acronym DLC for Dynamic Laser Control, or if already coined by someone else, refer to it), but it would be one that works a whole lot better than anything available. This is because the laser level needs to be chosen using the first frame after a scene cut, and not any where else. I think the lower native contrast of DLP's make them a great candidate for what the Radiance Pro could do for DLC using the Lumagen DTM technology.


Perhaps @ARROW-AV would be interested in collaborating for his version of the Christie Griffyn Projector.


----------



## Surge2018

CP850-CLED said:


> Has anyone else had issues in upgrading to the new AppleTV through a lumagen?


I have not had any issues. I have had to restart the ATV twice, because of audio issues; but that’s it.


----------



## fatherom

I realize this question (which is a modified version of my question from yesterday) isn't Lumagen specific, but I spent some time searching elsewhere, couldn't find anything, and am mainly just curious.

My Nintendo Switch offers Limited and Full choices for the RGB range. My Sony 885ES offers the same settings. Currently, both are using Limited, and things look fine. Is there anything to be gained by switching both to Full, when using the Nintendo? Do I get a "bit more" dynamic range that way? 

Also, I guess a side lumagen-related question, I'm presuming the Lumagen can handle either situation (Limited or Full on both source and display)...on my info screen I see the input listed at RGB-SDR709 and the output listed as 420-SDR709. Again, everything looks OK...just confirming that the lumagen is translating from RGB to 4:2:0 without issue.


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> I realize this question (which is a modified version of my question from yesterday) isn't Lumagen specific, but I spent some time searching elsewhere, couldn't find anything, and am mainly just curious.
> 
> My Nintendo Switch offers Limited and Full choices for the RGB range. My Sony 885ES offers the same settings. Currently, both are using Limited, and things look fine. Is there anything to be gained by switching both to Full, when using the Nintendo? Do I get a "bit more" dynamic range that way?
> 
> Also, I guess a side lumagen-related question, I'm presuming the Lumagen can handle either situation (Limited or Full on both source and display)...on my info screen I see the input listed at RGB-SDR709 and the output listed as 420-SDR709. Again, everything looks OK...just confirming that the lumagen is translating from RGB to 4:2:0 without issue.


Whether there is anything to benefit from Limited vs Full depends on whether the games for the Switch are rendered in video levels or PC levels. I doubt they are done at FULL given they are designed for a consumer video display and not a PC monitor. 

Not sure why your output is 420 unless the output is 60p and you have a 9G output. There shouldn't be any real issue with the conversion to 420, but you can change the output to RGB if you desire.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure why your output is 420 unless the output is 60p and you have a 9G output. There shouldn't be any real issue with the conversion to 420, but you can change the output to RGB if you desire.


Just for info's sake: Jim P had me change some settings on the Lumagen a while back to keep the output in 9G mode (I actually have 18G hdmi outputs on my lumagen) when we were diagnosing the audio drop-outs I was having. He was speculating that the Sony 885ES could've been to blame. Since the Oppo home screen was 60Hz/422, it was kicking in to the 18G mode on the output. So, now, my Oppo home screen is 60Hz/420 and then when I watch a 4K movie, it goes to 24p/422, but that stays in the 9G bandwidth "realm".

Yeah, my suspicion is the Lumagen is handling the conversion from RGB to 420 just fine - again, the game looks great, and looks the same compared (brightness, highlights, color-wise) to my OLED (with the exception that my black levels on the 885ES obviously aren't stellar (compared to an OLED, for sure).


----------



## asharma

Hi Folks, watching the last Indiana Jones 4K flick…The Panny 820 reports max light 1000 nits, average light level 265 nits…the JVC info screen reports Max light 1000 nits, Max Fall 400 nits…The Lumagen AFAIK doesn’t report average light but reports max light at 1000 nits…Will the JVC info screen always be wrong? Any reason why? Thanks folks…


----------



## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> Jim, what happens if temps get too high, does the unit automatically shut down?


For an over temperature situation (105C or higher) the Pro is not intentionally shut down by the processor. What happens is the FPGA timing fails and video stops working and the FPGA temperature goes down. If you get the over-temperature message definitely contact Lumagen support to help figure out why.

Our timing synthesis assumes a FPGA temperature of 84C. The issue above our target 84C, is the speed of the FPGA is reduced (due to semiconductor physics). I have tested a lot of units at 100C, and all the ones I tested have worked at this elevated temperature. Not all _should_ work at these high temperatures though, and we recommend keeping the FPGA at 84C or lower. I have seen a number of units start to lose their composure at 105C. However, this should not be a hardware fail issue. You might have to pull power depending on how the timing fails.

Note: If the fan is working you should never see the over temperature message. The cases we have seen for this have been our mistake (fan upside down, no plenum installed, not programming the fan "voltage control mode" in a newer unit), or customer error (we have had a few customers block the inlet and/or outlet vents, and one customer removed the lid and accidentally rotated it 180 degrees, so air never was forced over the FPGA). I do not recall ever having a fan fail completely, but we have had one or two of the "2U 35mm fans" get noisy enough we replaced them. I do not believe we have ever had a "1U 60 mm" fan fail or get noisy.


----------



## jrp

I have not seen the following suggestion, but might have missed it:

While the Panamorph Paladin DCR is designed to have the active width be 4096, this is not an absolute requirement. You can certainly set up the Radiance Pro to output 3840 for all content, and still use a DCR lens, especially if you like to watch 3D.

Running at 3840 wide rather than 4096 will reduce the light output by about 6% (3840/4096). Not a great thing for 3D since with active glasses you might only see about 35 to 40% of the 2D light output. However, if you have enough light then it would mean 3D will fill the screen width on the JVCs.

Setup for a DCR using 3840 wide is the same process, but you select a Radiance Pro 3840 wide output mode, you will need to optically zoom the projector in a bit more to fill the screen width, and you will need to adjust the output style "Shrink" to reduce the active height for a 2.40 screen.


----------



## jrp

bowlingbeeg said:


> Anyone know what the difference between standby power Normal vs Lowest is?


We recently added a new mode that reduces the power in standby. To avoid any possibility of creating issues with this new mode, 4XXX units are left in Normal power mode, unless the user selects Lowest power mode. The 5348 units default to Lowest power mode (but I believe you can select Normal power mode, even though there is absolutely no reason to do so).


----------



## bowlingbeeg

jrp said:


> We recently added a new mode that reduces the power in standby. To avoid any possibility of creating issues with this new mode, 4XXX units are left in Normal power mode, unless the user selects Lowest power mode. The 5348 units default to Lowest power mode (but I believe you can select Normal power mode, even though there is absolutely no reason to do so).


Thanks Jim ... I'll give it a try and see what happens on my 4242


----------



## gerard1meehan

I have had my Radiance pro to a Sony 5000ES for a few months, and I am so impressed with the unit.

I am curious how people who utilize a 4k firestick have their firestick output set up. Unfortunately, the firestick (to the best of my knowledge) does not have a source direct option. So, any 480, or 1080 content is scaled by the firestick. I would prefer to have Radiance Pro do it given the option. Now I could force the resolution on the firestick via a “hidden Menu” feature each time I watch content. But that is a cumbersome approach.

Do the majority of folks just let that be? Is there a way to use the Lumigan to send an EDID to the firestick, and trick it to send 480P or 1080I that I could integrate into my Crestron?

Am I way over thinking this?


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

gerard1meehan said:


> I have had my Radiance pro to a Sony 5000ES for a few months, and I am so impressed with the unit.
> 
> I am curious how people who utilize a 4k firestick have their firestick output set up. Unfortunately, the firestick (to the best of my knowledge) does not have a source direct option. So, any 480, or 1080 content is scaled by the firestick. I would prefer to have Radiance Pro do it given the option. Now I could force the resolution on the firestick via a “hidden Menu” feature each time I watch content. But that is a cumbersome approach.
> 
> Do the majority of folks just let that be? Is there a way to use the Lumigan to send an EDID to the firestick, and trick it to send 480P or 1080I that I could integrate into my Crestron?
> 
> Am I way over thinking this?


You are not overthinking, you are simply underthinking. The same question arises with my use of the Apple 4k TV, for HD the picture looks better setting it to 1080p and letting the Radiance do the rest.

The answer is so easy we don't think of it - have to of the same streamer boxes, one setup for 4k, one setup for the lower resolution. HA!


----------



## gerard1meehan

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> You are not overthinking, you are simply underthinking. The same question arises with my use of the Apple 4k TV, for HD the picture looks better setting it to 1080p and letting the Radiance do the rest.
> 
> The answer is so easy we don't think of it - have to of the same streamer boxes, one setup for 4k, one setup for the lower resolution. HA!



Well I do have a few "extra" firesticks.


----------



## Technology3456

For a 1080p display, what is better, a Lumagen with 9GHz outputs, or 18GHz outputs? For a 4K display, what is better, 9GHz outputs or 18GHz outputs? Thanks.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Technology3456 said:


> For a 1080p display, what is better, a Lumagen with 9GHz outputs, or 18GHz outputs? For a 4K display, what is better, 9GHz outputs or 18GHz outputs? Thanks.


Depends on the projector. E.G., Sony 5000 has early version somewhat finicky HDMI input and Jim Peterson of Lumagen has for that reason recommended 9GHz outputs with the Radiance Pro for this projector. What would be the sense of a 18 GHz output with a limited bandwith 1080p display, you tell me?


----------



## Technology3456

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Depends on the projector. E.G., Sony 5000 has early version somewhat finicky HDMI input and Jim Peterson of Lumagen has for that reason recommended 9GHz outputs with the Radiance Pro for this projector. What would be the sense of a 18 GHz output with a limited bandwith 1080p display, you tell me?


Presumably none, but just checking. What about for a 4K projector? I thought 4K would not even work if you didnt have an 18GHz input, output, and cable, but I have little experience with it and the last I read any comments about it was probably six months ago. I just want to make sure that 9GHz fully covers both 1080p and 4K, or if not and I need 18GHz, that 18GHz wont cause problems for 1080p because of bugs or something.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Get both a 9Ghz and also a 18Ghz output cards. That way you are covered whatever projector you get now or in the future (unless you go 8k and higher bandwith than 4k. HA!)


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> For a 1080p display, what is better, a Lumagen with 9GHz outputs, or 18GHz outputs? For a 4K display, what is better, 9GHz outputs or 18GHz outputs? Thanks.


For a 1080p TV/projector, I strongly recommend you use a 9 GHz output. The reason is the 18 GHz output has faster edge rates. Due to transmission line physics, it is the edge rate that is the most important spec and for an older1080 device. The 18 GHz output edge rate can easily be too fast for the TV/projector.

Even with the 9 GHz output, and the Pro down sampling to 1920x1080, I strongly recommend you use an active cable from the Pro to the TV/projector. The Pro outputs have output EQ and faster edge rates to be able to drive 4k TVs and projectors. These these faster edge rates can be mitigated by an active cable.


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> Presumably none, but just checking. What about for a 4K projector? I thought 4K would not even work if you didnt have an 18GHz input, output, and cable, but I have little experience with it and the last I read any comments about it was probably six months ago. I just want to make sure that 9GHz fully covers both 1080p and 4K, or if not and I need 18GHz, that 18GHz wont cause problems for 1080p because of bugs or something.


Two part answer:

Inputs:

For the Radiance Pro inputs, for HDR sources, we recommend 18 GHz inputs since many HDR sources refuse to output HDR to a 9 GHz input. For non-HDR sources, the 9 GHz inputs should be fine.

Outputs:

For the outputs, the 18 GHz outputs work well with projectors (e.g. JVC NX-9) that have good HDMI input designs, but for projectors with marginal HDMI inputs (there are many), I recommend using a 9 GHz output card. The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rates and is easier on projectors with marginal HDMI input designs. In my A-B testing I could not see a difference for 4k60 HDR content, on the toughest scenes I could find, between the Pro 18 GHz output (4k60, 4:2:2, 12-bit), and the Pro 9 GHz output (4k60, 4:2:0, 8-bit dithered) due to the excellent Radiance Pro output dither.

For the 4242, the 9 GHz output card also has the advantage that both outputs can carry audio, video, or both, selected independently. We have a few audio processors that do not seem to correctly implement all audio interrupts, and so depend on video changing to know when to change the audio. For a Pro audio only output, the video is blank and never changes and so a few audio processors miss audio format changes. With a 9 GHz output card, you can enable both audio and video on Output 1 going to the audio processor so it sees video changes to know when to change the audio.


----------



## Technology3456

jrp said:


> Two part answer:
> 
> Inputs:
> 
> For the Radiance Pro inputs, for HDR sources, we recommend 18 GHz inputs since many HDR sources refuse to output HDR to a 9 GHz input. For non-HDR sources, the 9 GHz inputs should be fine.
> 
> Outputs:
> 
> For the outputs, the 18 GHz outputs work well with projectors (e.g. JVC NX-9) that have good HDMI input designs, but for projectors with marginal HDMI inputs (there are many), I recommend using a 9 GHz output card. The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rates and is easier on projectors with marginal HDMI input designs. In my A-B testing I could not see a difference for 4k60 HDR content, on the toughest scenes I could find, between the Pro 18 GHz output (4k60, 4:2:2, 12-bit), and the Pro 9 GHz output (4k60, 4:2:0, 8-bit dithered) due to the excellent Radiance Pro output dither.
> 
> For the 4242, the 9 GHz output card also has the advantage that both outputs can carry audio, video, or both, selected independently. We have a few audio processors that do not seem to correctly implement all audio interrupts, and so depend on video changing to know when to change the audio. For a Pro audio only output, the video is blank and never changes and so a few audio processors miss audio format changes. With a 9 GHz output card, you can enable both audio and video on Output 1 going to the audio processor so it sees video changes to know when to change the audio.


So for 1080p projectors, 18GHz inputs, and 9 GHz outputs, would work great, but say I get a Lumagen like that, and then upgrade to a 4K projector, is not having 18GHz outputs going to be a problem for the 4K projector?

Can you remind me, what are the cheapest 4xxx models that have at least one 9GHz output, and at least one 18GHz output? And I mean that can work in general, not like a 18GHZ output that is only for audio or something (if that exists).

_One totally different random question: _Do all Lumagen models from 2xxx forward have controls such as pan and scan, shrink, and vert shift? I may want to squeeze a video frame to half its height (maybe using top/bottom 3D mode) and then move it to the top of the active video frame using pan and scan or shrink or vert shift commands. Random I know but it's just something I want to experiment with.


----------



## Surge2018

fatherom said:


> Just for info's sake: Jim P had me change some settings on the Lumagen a while back to keep the output in 9G mode (I actually have 18G hdmi outputs on my lumagen) when we were diagnosing the audio drop-outs I was having. He was speculating that the Sony 885ES could've been to blame. Since the Oppo home screen was 60Hz/422, it was kicking in to the 18G mode on the output. So, now, my Oppo home screen is 60Hz/420 and then when I watch a 4K movie, it goes to 24p/422, but that stays in the 9G bandwidth "realm".
> 
> Yeah, my suspicion is the Lumagen is handling the conversion from RGB to 420 just fine - again, the game looks great, and looks the same compared (brightness, highlights, color-wise) to my OLED (with the exception that my black levels on the 885ES obviously aren't stellar (compared to an OLED, for sure).


I have the same Oppo, Lumagen, and Sony models as you and never had audio drop outs using the standard 18G settings. I would check/change your HDMI cables…


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## fatherom

Surge2018 said:


> I have the same Oppo, Lumagen, and Sony models as you and never had audio drop outs using the standard 18G settings. I would check/change your HDMI cables…


But we don't have the same receiver either. I battled this for months (tried various cables, including Tributaries) and could never resolve audio drop outs. Everyone's setup is different, even those with the same equipment...there's always potential variations that we're not aware of.


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## docrog

fatherom said:


> But we don't have the same receiver either. I battled this for months (tried various cables, including Tributaries) and could never resolve audio drop outs. Everyone's setup is different, even those with the same equipment...there's always potential variations that we're not aware of.


Out of curiosity, did you experience audio dropouts or actually perceivable real world decrease in PQ when you output your video sources first to the Denon (as a switching device) and then a single video out (output #2) from the Denon to the RP?


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Out of curiosity, did you experience audio dropouts or actually perceivable real world decrease in PQ when you output your video sources first to the Denon (as a switching device) and then a single video out (output #2) from the Denon to the RP?


You asked me that about a year ago. 

I can't use the Denon as my video switching device. I experience terrible video sync and video drop outs / inability to maintain an hdmi signal lock. Jim P was on the phone with me for a couple hours trying to diagnose; we went back to using the lumagen as the video switcher.


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## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> Out of curiosity, did you experience audio dropouts or actually perceivable real world decrease in PQ when you output your video sources first to the Denon (as a switching device) and then a single video out (output #2) from the Denon to the RP?





fatherom said:


> You asked me that about a year ago.
> 
> I can't use the Denon as my video switching device. I experience terrible video sync and video drop outs / inability to maintain an hdmi signal lock. Jim P was on the phone with me for a couple hours trying to diagnose; we went back to using the lumagen as the video switcher.


I see a lot of posts in the Marantz SR8015/AV8805 and AppleTV4K threads discussing HDMI sync issues. I own a SR8015 and a ATV4K, both connected to my Radiance Pro. I never have audio drop outs or sync issues. I’ve become accustomed to not having a volume overlay and don’t miss it.


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## docrog

Karl Maga said:


> I see a lot of posts in the Marantz SR8015/AV8805 and AppleTV4K threads discussing HDMI sync issues. I own a SR8015 and a ATV4K, both connected to my Radiance Pro. I never have audio drop outs or sync issues. I’ve become accustomed to not having a volume overlay and don’t miss it.


Sorry, guys. I didn't mean to reactivate a prior discussion regarding optional video pathway setups for the RP. I remain mystified as to why, despite my *never *having had HDMI sync (or other) issues for any video source connected through my prior Yamaha 3050 or current Denon 6700 receivers to my 18GHZ 4240, others seem to have reported a myriad of issues with similar generational AVR/Pre-Pro devices. This just doesn't make sense to me if all involved HDMI cables were functioning properly..............


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## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> I see a lot of posts in the Marantz SR8015/AV8805 and AppleTV4K threads discussing HDMI sync issues. I own a SR8015 and a ATV4K, both connected to my Radiance Pro. I never have audio drop outs or sync issues. I’ve become accustomed to not having a volume overlay and don’t miss it.


With the DeRemote app on my iphone, I have control of the volume, sub channel levels and other speakers too - and no one can see on screen if I edge up volume or bass !


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## Karl Maga

docrog said:


> Sorry, guys. I didn't mean to reactivate a prior discussion regarding optional video pathway setups for the RP. I remain mystified as to why, despite my *never *having had HDMI sync (or other) issues for any video source connected through my prior Yamaha 3050 or current Denon 6700 receivers to my 18GHZ 4240, others seem to have reported a myriad of issues with similar generational AVR/Pre-Pro devices. This just doesn't make sense to me if all involved HDMI cables were functioning properly..............


I think its warranted to have it brought up from time to time because the issue persists (based upon comments in other threads). Thus, my experience with the Lumagen Radiance Pro indicates that the Radiance Pro mitigates a lot of these issues.

Initially, I had to really think hard about adding a Radiance Pro because while I don't mind spending money, I'm judicious about it. All this to say - I can't imagine having a serious projector based setup without a Radiance Pro. Not to disparage setups that lack one, after all they are not necessary. It's just that the Radiance Pro improves so many facets that its affect on enjoyability exceed its cost.

That is value.


----------



## fatherom

Karl Maga said:


> Thus, my experience with the Lumagen Radiance Pro indicates that the Radiance Pro mitigates a lot of these issues.


I love my RP to pieces, and anyone who knows my post history knows this, and I've expressed the same sentiment to Jim. 

However, in my particular case, with respect to audio drop outs, I have the opposite experience. I've basically had to rely on the separate audio outs from my Oppo and Sony (going directly to my denon) to not experience drop outs. 

But again, I'm not trying to disparage anything. I realize the complexities of our various setups. Sometimes, solving intermittent issues can be incredibly difficult. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## asharma

Karl Maga said:


> I think its warranted to have it brought up from time to time because the issue persists (based upon comments in other threads). Thus, my experience with the Lumagen Radiance Pro indicates that the Radiance Pro mitigates a lot of these issues.
> 
> Initially, I had to really think hard about adding a Radiance Pro because while I don't mind spending money, I'm judicious about it. All this to say - I can't imagine having a serious projector based setup without a Radiance Pro. Not to disparage setups that lack one, after all they are not necessary. It's just that the Radiance Pro improves so many facets that its affect on enjoyability exceed its cost.
> 
> That is value.


Agreed…the RP brings the subtle niceties…A/R control and having to use only a single lens memory is the way the projector should work out of the box, but it doesn’t…I have not graduated to Lumagen calibration yet, but I’m sure there will be value added there also…Also I’ve watched approx 5 movies with my RP thus far…Have not touched a single setting for Tmapping…Set and forget…it just works…

Now, lip sync, its work in progress for me…It’s a pain to dial in but I’ll get there…


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## Craig Peer

fatherom said:


> I love my RP to pieces, and anyone who knows my post history knows this, and I've expressed the same sentiment to Jim.
> 
> *However, in my particular case, with respect to audio drop outs, I have the opposite experience. I've basically had to rely on the separate audio outs from my Oppo and Sony (going directly to my denon) to not experience drop outs.*
> 
> But again, I'm not trying to disparage anything. I realize the complexities of our various setups. Sometimes, solving intermittent issues can be incredibly difficult.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same here. It was driving me nuts, since the drop outs could occur randomly. Not one drop out or problem since routing video directly to my RS4500.


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## Karl Maga

Craig Peer said:


> Same here. It was driving me nuts, since the drop outs could occur randomly. Not one drop out or problem since routing video directly to my RS4500.


Perhaps how things are connected is the key to all of this?

I have always/only used my Radiance Pro in the configuration that has all sources only to the RP, and the RP send video directly to my NX7 and audio only to my Marantz SSP. I have a second HDMI run from the Marantz to the NX7 for those rare times when I want to see the Marantz OSD on the NX7.


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## fatherom

My setup (when I had dropouts) was: all video sources to RP, video out from RP to my 885ES, and audio only out from RP to my Denon 6500.

Audio drop outs seemed to ONLY occur with hi-res (Atmos, DTS:X) soundtracks.

I have since gone to: all video sources to RP, video out from RP to my 885ES. For my Apple TV and Nintendo switch, I use the audio only our from RP to Denon (I use these sources rarely). For my Oppo 203 and Sony x800m2, I use the dedicated audio out from those players direct to my Denon.

I haven't ever spent the time to totally nail down any lip sync issues (sometimes I notice some slight lip sync problems), but in general lip sync is fine...and no audio dropouts.


----------



## asharma

fatherom said:


> I haven't ever spent the time to totally nail down any lip sync issues (sometimes I notice some slight lip sync problems), but in general lip sync is fine...and no audio dropouts.


Lip sync is a wee bit odd to me…In the same movie, sometimes it looks totally synced, sometimes not…Work in progress for me…


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## sjschaff

fatherom said:


> I love my RP to pieces, and anyone who knows my post history knows this, and I've expressed the same sentiment to Jim.
> 
> However, in my particular case, with respect to audio drop outs, I have the opposite experience. I've basically had to rely on the separate audio outs from my Oppo and Sony (going directly to my denon) to not experience drop outs.
> 
> But again, I'm not trying to disparage anything. I realize the complexities of our various setups. Sometimes, solving intermittent issues can be incredibly difficult.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just one thing to consider: have you made any changes to settings on your receiver lately? I know that some are often designed to allow for compatibility of older devices but can cause hiccups in the process. For example, I'd experienced infrequent audio dropouts earlier this year with many different sources going into my RP including Nvidia Shield (from NAS and external USB) and even playback from Tivo. Could rewind the problem area and not get the issue, so I knew it wasn't the source. Since I've been using an aging Anthem D2V and had not made any changes that was, I thought, the last place to look. However, with updates to software on both the Nvidia and Tivo (which happen whether I want them to or not) it seemed possible that a previous "benign" setting may have been "attacked" by these changes. Sure enough when I reviewed the Anthem setting, specifically one called "Auto Dig" which I had "Yes". This is the setting that causes audio input format to go to analog (the stereo RCA jacks) if no digital audio from the source is sensed, and was intended only for early digital cable boxes which could not put out audio from analog stations on their digital output and vice versa. As I am all HDMI connections, if this happens, it would seem to send audio "nowhere", at least for a very short period. With all other sources Auto-Dig is completely unnecessary and known to result in problems when the source is equipped with HDMI. Once I changed the setting to "No", I've not experienced such drops. So, it seems everything in the chain matters -- even stuff you never thought could pose a problem!


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## jrp

Random comment of the day:

In my opinion the way audio is passed in HDMI is a very bad idea (I have stronger words I use in private). I have always said audio should have been a separate differential-pair. This would have made the transition from DVI to HDMI trivial for all audio formats that work with SPDIF, and would have supported all the current audio formats with dramatically fewer issues. Given you can now buy HDMI cables for under $10 this fifth differential-pair would not have been a significant connector, or cable, cost adder. But as I like to say "No one asked me."

In my defense against those who think this hind-sight, I have been saying this since DVI days _before_ I knew what a fiasco HDMI audio would be. In fact as soon as I learned how HDMI audio was to be passed, I cringed and said "S**t, that's going to be a nightmare." Really, I did, and my prediction has come true in spades.

That said, we soldier on and work to make the Radiance Pro models so good that they give nearly all the HDMI signal margin (a.k.a. jitter and electrical noise) to the devices connected to the Radiance Pro. The 5348 is certainly the world leader in reduced jitter and reduced electrical noise (to the best of our knowledge), but the 4XXX series (unlike most other products) also has jitter well below specification, and low electrical noise.

=====

I have mentioned the following, but it is worth mentioning again:

I have changed my recommendation from "no less than 2 meters for passive HDMI cables" to "3 meters (and up to 4 meters) for passive HDMI cables." The reason is that "audio fails first." I call using three meter passive HDMI cables "the Goldilocks solution." After years of experience, while 2 meter passive HDMI cables work in most cases, the problem is exactly that "audio fails first" and that 2-meter HDMI cables do not in all cases provide enough signal attenuation to mitigate the HDMI cable EQ in the HDMI drivers and receivers.

Given that audio is carried without its own clock, and has to be recreated based on a ratio of the video clock to the required audio clock, this stands to reason. What we have found is using three meter passive cables from sources to the Radiance Pro and from the Radiance Pro to the audio processors makes the porridge "just right." By using a 3-meter passive HDMI cable, the HDMI signal is "not too hot and not too cold."

We had a rare audio dropout from Kaleidescape Strato content using 2 meter cables. This rare event was eliminated after I switched to 3-meter Tributaries UHDP passive HDMI cables from the Strato to the Radiance Pro, and from the Radiance Pro to the audio processor (in this case a Trinnov Altitude 16). Also, I now have results from a number of systems that going from 2 meter to 3 meter (or in some cases longer) passive HDMI cables from sources, and out of the Radiance Pro to the audio processor, has resolved audio dropouts.

=====

I could also spend time on how for the few HDMI products I have popped the top on, it appears that HDMI designers do not actually understand circuit board design for microwave transmission lines - which governs HDMI signals for 9 GHz and 18 GHz designs. To work at 18 GHz the circuit board designers must "use every trick in the book," but it looks like they never read the book. Can't be sure on some of these design rules since I would need to X-Ray the circuit boards to see internal layers.

This seems especially true with "high-end audio processors," but is much less an issue with "main-stream audio processors" (a.k.a. Denon, Marantz, Sony). Also many (most?) projectors have marginal HDMI input designs. This is a puzzle in some cases since TVs from the same vendor will have good to excellent HDMI interface designs, but the projectors from that vendor have marginal HDMI input designs.

I feel I should point out the high-end exceptions I know about: Storm Audio redid their HDMI input design and feedback on the new version has been very positive for having no audio dropouts. Trinnov has a new HDMI switch board, and so far feedback is positive, but more data is needed to be sure (our Trinnov has the older HDMI switch board, and I still have managed to eliminate audio dropouts). On the projector front the JVC RS1000, RS2000 (a.k.a. NX-7), RS3000 (a.k.a. NX-9), and RS4500, all have pretty good HDMI designs.

That was more than I intended to say on HDMI design today. I might post more on this at a later date.


----------



## Surge2018

asharma said:


> Lip sync is a wee bit odd to me…In the same movie, sometimes it looks totally synced, sometimes not…Work in progress for me…


That’s probably because your source or audio processor is not processing the content at the same rate. 
I use Apple TV for just about all content. It’s usually solid at 118 msec audio delay, but sometimes one app will be different. BTW, ATV has an automatic lip sync function which uses your iPhone as the microphone.


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## sunnya23

Surge2018 said:


> That’s probably because your source or audio processor is not processing the content at the same rate.
> I use Apple TV for just about all content. It’s usually solid at 118 msec audio delay, but sometimes one app will be different. BTW, ATV has an automatic lip sync function which uses your iPhone as the microphone.


I've had my fair share of issues with lip sync. It really does matter from app to app, and in my case also audio format to audio format. DD+ was the biggest offender in my case whereas atmos was usually solid. I primarily watch most of my content via the Nvidia Shield tv. It has an av sync delay setting which has seemed to help ameliorate most of my issues.


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## asharma

sunnya23 said:


> I've had my fair share of issues with lip sync. It really does matter from app to app, and in my case also audio format to audio format. DD+ was the biggest offender in my case whereas atmos was usually solid. I primarily watch most of my content via the Nvidia Shield tv. It has an av sync delay setting which has seemed to help ameliorate most of my issues.


Good to know, one of my devices is a Sheild TV Pro…what do u have sync delay set for?


----------



## Technology3456

Sorry for probably a basic question, but what is the story with lip sync and the Radiance Pro? Are these comments saying that the Radiance Pro causes audio to go out of sync naturally, so you have to manually adjust the audio a few milliseconds earlier or later, or is it an issue with some other equipment that the Radiance Pro has an option to fix, but it will not create the issue on its own? Thanks

Edit: Also, a problem I thought of maybe six months ago, never figured out 100%, and forgot about. If you use a 2.35:1 screen, will the Lumagen take the subtitles from a blu-ray and move them into the 2.35:1 image?


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## sunnya23

asharma said:


> Good to know, one of my devices is a Sheild TV Pro…what do u have sync delay set for?


I believe I'm somewhere in the 250ms range. It's on a slider scale and each click of the button is I believe 10ms. Play around with it, set it, then go watch your content, rinse and repeat until you get it to your liking. I've basically settled for a happy medium because each app will be different in terms of delays and in my case audio formats are also different.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

fatherom said:


> I love my RP to pieces, and anyone who knows my post history knows this, and I've expressed the same sentiment to Jim.
> 
> However, in my particular case, with respect to audio drop outs, I have the opposite experience. I've basically had to rely on the separate audio outs from my Oppo and Sony (going directly to my denon) to not experience drop outs.
> 
> But again, I'm not trying to disparage anything. I realize the complexities of our various setups. Sometimes, solving intermittent issues can be incredibly difficult.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Long time lurker, first time poster.
I’ve been reading over this thread looking for a solution to the audio drop out issue but it seems like perhaps my unit isn’t defective but rather this is a known issue with the lumagen device.

I inherited the RP from a friend who has a holiday home in Florida with a cinema, he took the lumagen out due to guests complaining of audio issues so I kind of expected it anyway. My audio chain is currently Apple TV /Panasonic bluray/Shield/xbox ->RP->Denon AVR. Cables are all certified, I changed them all to 3m to try solve the issue, the RP to denon is an audioquest coffee which id hope does the business considering it cost more than a wedding ring 😂

Anyway..

- The lumagen has issues with short cables, it’s apparently every other device in the world that has bad design… the millions of Apple TV users with Denon AVR’s are living a lie with their problem free setup. 😂😬 just kidding, but I have tried a few different cables, but nothing changed. Admittedly the originals were very short but outside of planet Lumagen it seems being too long is usually the issue…

- I’ve bypassed RP audio from the Panasonic with a short cable to the AVR .. it’s the only way to get problem free audio, so I know it’s not an issue with the Denon.

So far I haven’t actually paid anything and I think the owner gave up with trying to fix the issue. Has anyone actually solved this problem without taking the Lumagen out of the audio chain? I count about 10 different users on here with the issue … I’m currently thinking of sending it back to the sunshine state with my thanks 😂 but you guys seem to love these devices so it’s maybe worth persevering with.. especially since I’m not paying a lot for it.


----------



## audioguy

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster.
> I’ve been reading over this thread looking for a solution to the audio drop out issue but it seems like perhaps my unit isn’t defective but rather this is a known issue with the lumagen device.
> 
> I inherited the RP from a friend who has a holiday home in Florida with a cinema, he took the lumagen out due to guests complaining of audio issues so I kind of expected it anyway. My audio chain is currently Apple TV /Panasonic bluray/Shield/xbox ->RP->Denon AVR. Cables are all certified, I changed them all to 3m to try solve the issue, the RP to denon is an audioquest coffee which id hope does the business considering it cost more than a wedding ring 😂
> 
> Anyway..
> 
> - The lumagen has issues with short cables, it’s apparently every other device in the world that has bad design… the millions of Apple TV users with Denon AVR’s are living a lie with their problem free setup. 😂😬 just kidding, but I have tried a few different cables, but nothing changed. Admittedly the originals were very short but outside of planet Lumagen it seems being too long is usually the issue…
> 
> - I’ve bypassed RP audio from the Panasonic with a short cable to the AVR .. it’s the only way to get problem free audio, so I know it’s not an issue with the Denon.
> 
> So far I haven’t actually paid anything and I think the owner gave up with trying to fix the issue. Has anyone actually solved this problem without taking the Lumagen out of the audio chain? I count about 10 different users on here with the issue … I’m currently thinking of sending it back to the sunshine state with my thanks 😂 but you guys seem to love these devices so it’s maybe worth persevering with.. especially since I’m not paying a lot for it.


If I have an issue with audio dropouts on my Apple TV, they must be either very, very rare OR must not bother me enough to remember. I use 2 meter cables (I THINK I got them from Monoprice) as recommended by Lumagen and the guy that calibrated my projector (Craig Rounds) from the ATV (and Shield and Oppo and Zappiti) to my Lumagen - and the same from the Lumagen to my Trinnov.

But even if it did have a few dropouts, I would most certainly NOT get rid of it. All of the features/upside that it adds to my video/HT enjoyment are more than worth it. 

Certainly, YMMV!


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## steelman1991

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster.
> I’ve been reading over this thread looking for a solution to the audio drop out issue but it seems like perhaps my unit isn’t defective but rather this is a known issue with the lumagen device.
> 
> I inherited the RP from a friend who has a holiday home in Florida with a cinema, he took the lumagen out due to guests complaining of audio issues so I kind of expected it anyway. My audio chain is currently Apple TV /Panasonic bluray/Shield/xbox ->RP->Denon AVR. Cables are all certified, I changed them all to 3m to try solve the issue, the RP to denon is an audioquest coffee which id hope does the business considering it cost more than a wedding ring
> 
> Anyway..
> 
> - The lumagen has issues with short cables, it’s apparently every other device in the world that has bad design… the millions of Apple TV users with Denon AVR’s are living a lie with their problem free setup.  just kidding, but I have tried a few different cables, but nothing changed. Admittedly the originals were very short but outside of planet Lumagen it seems being too long is usually the issue…
> 
> - I’ve bypassed RP audio from the Panasonic with a short cable to the AVR .. it’s the only way to get problem free audio, so I know it’s not an issue with the Denon.
> 
> So far I haven’t actually paid anything and I think the owner gave up with trying to fix the issue. Has anyone actually solved this problem without taking the Lumagen out of the audio chain? I count about 10 different users on here with the issue … I’m currently thinking of sending it back to the sunshine state with my thanks  but you guys seem to love these devices so it’s maybe worth persevering with.. especially since I’m not paying a lot for it.


Try all sources to the Denon and 1 cable from the Denon to an input on the Lumagen. That’s how I route my sources. Struggled with audio drop outs the other way - none going via the processor .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KorbenDallas2021

Thanks all, so far putting the RP upstream seems to have done the trick, time will tell I guess.
Makes for interesting reading going back through the thread, seems this one comes up a lot and has some users frustrated. I have to wonder if lumagen couldn’t incorporate whatever it is all these poor / marginal HDMI chips have that allows them to work nicely together. Maybe that comes with downsides I’m not aware of like increased jitter or something. My Nvidia Shield was on a 0.5m cable into my receiver, no idea what brand I’ve had it years and never had a problem.

Previously I had a bad cable that would cause drop outs in both video and audio, that would go with a pop through the speakers… the drop outs I experienced yesterday were more like hitting mute for a few seconds.. not sure if that means anything..

Anyway, seems this setup gives me what I need for now to have a play with the features.


----------



## Mark Burton

As much as I love the lumagen, audio drop outs are definitely a lumagen issue.

Bypassing the lumagen always gets rid of audio drops outs but having it in the audio chain is a constant battle trying to resolve the issue.

I’m now relatively stable but do still get the occasional one. Using audioquest cables having upgraded a few weeks back has definitely helped. Using a 5348 and trinnov altitude.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> As much as I love the lumagen, audio drop outs are definitely a lumagen issue.
> 
> Bypassing the lumagen always gets rid of audio drops outs but having it in the audio chain is a constant battle trying to resolve the issue.
> 
> I’m now relatively stable but do still get the occasional one. Using audioquest cables having upgraded a few weeks back has definitely helped. Using a 5348 and trinnov altitude.


So, you are sending all inputs to the Trinnov first and using one of its outputs to go to the 5348? I know the Trinnov supports pass through, though it is sending both audio and video (no separation), right?


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> So, you are sending all inputs to the Trinnov first and using one of its outputs to go to the 5348? I know the Trinnov supports pass through, though it is sending both audio and video (no separation), right?


No, I’m going all inputs into the lumagen, video out to a Sony 760 projector and audio to the trinnov.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> No, I’m going all inputs into the lumagen, video out to a Sony 760 projector and audio to the trinnov.


Sorry...I was reacting to your statement "Bypassing the lumagen always gets rid of audio drops outs but having it in the audio chain is a constant battle trying to resolve the issue."
So, you do run the dedicated audio out of the 5348 into the Trinnov? That seems the most effective approach. 

My issues with dropouts in the past either seemed to be due to some settings in the sources or even my current Anthem D2V audio processor.


----------



## Izza1984

I have a question will the lumagen pro work better with 4K blue ray player oppo 203 or Panasonic udb9000?


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mark Burton said:


> As much as I love the lumagen, audio drop outs are definitely a lumagen issue.
> 
> Bypassing the lumagen always gets rid of audio drops outs but having it in the audio chain is a constant battle trying to resolve the issue.
> 
> I’m now relatively stable but do still get the occasional one. Using audioquest cables having upgraded a few weeks back has definitely helped. Using a 5348 and trinnov altitude.


I’m pretty much in the same place with it, it’s disappointing and frustrating but not quite at the level where id take it out completely. I’m trying one last thing which was recommended by lumagen and that’s to set the voltage swing on output 1 to 8, the highest option without EQ which is enabled at 9…

Menu 0718

ive had it set at that for a few weeks, no audio drops since but it needs a few more weeks to declare victory since I’m not using it as much. If that doesn’t work I’ll do what seems to be the only proven fix and that’s to bypass the lumagen using sources that have a HDMI audio out. I don’t know of a good streaming box that has that but I’m sure one will exist.


----------



## bjorg

Izza1984 said:


> I have a question will the lumagen pro work better with 4K blue ray player oppo 203 or Panasonic udb9000?


I use an Oppo 203 with mine, which seems to work well.


----------



## Izza1984

bjorg said:


> I use an Oppo 203 with mine, which seems to work well.


I have a Panasonic usb9000 my question is will the lumagen override the Panasonic tone mapping and apply it’s own?


----------



## Surge2018

Izza1984 said:


> I have a Panasonic usb9000 my question is will the lumagen override the Panasonic tone mapping and apply it’s own?


No, the Lumagen won’t “override” the Panasonic’s tone mapping, you have to disable tone mapping on the Panasonic, and enable it on the Lumagen.

Regarding the audio drop-out complaints:
I have never had an issue. I use the recommended Tributaries HDMI cables, in 2m(!) and 3m lengths. 

The Lumagen recommended connection is:
Source -> Lumagen -> video out to display, and a separate Lumagen output to the receiver.
(I initially tried Lumagen A & V out to receiver, then out to the display from the receiver, but that degraded the image quickly and caused very slow/cumbersome HDMI handshake issues).
You can see what equipment I’m using below.

If you do the above, you have to set audio delay manually. Auto lip-sync on your receiver will not work, because there is no video connection between the receiver and the disable.
It’s not really a big deal - set it once and it should be fine. I haven’t had to adjust it since getting the new Apple TV, and the same audio delay works for my Oppo 203 as well.


----------



## woofer

Surge2018 said:


> Regarding the audio drop-out complaints:
> I have never had an issue. I use the recommended Tributaries HDMI cables, in 2m(!) and 3m lengths.


Same here..............NO issues with Audio whatsoever.. Using 3mtr and 5mtr WireWorld Silver Starlight 7 HDMI cables..


----------



## Izza1984

Surge2018 said:


> No, the Lumagen won’t “override” the Panasonic’s tone mapping, you have to disable tone mapping on the Panasonic, and enable it on the Lumagen.
> 
> Regarding the audio drop-out complaints:
> I have never had an issue. I use the recommended Tributaries HDMI cables, in 2m(!) and 3m lengths.
> 
> The Lumagen recommended connection is:
> Source -> Lumagen -> video out to display, and a separate Lumagen output to the receiver.
> (I initially tried Lumagen A & V out to receiver, then out to the display from the receiver, but that degraded the image quickly and caused very slow/cumbersome HDMI handshake issues).
> You can see what equipment I’m using below.
> 
> If you do the above, you have to set audio delay manually. Auto lip-sync on your receiver will not work, because there is no video connection between the receiver and the disable.
> It’s not really a big deal - set it once and it should be fine. I haven’t had to adjust it since getting the new Apple TV, and the same audio delay works for my Oppo 203 as well.


Thank you so much for the valuable input


----------



## Kris Deering

Just want to chime in with some more inputs on this. Obviously I've been using a Lumagen for years now and have a LONG list of clients that use them as well. I hear about the HDMI issues constantly and nearly EVERY time it is some client that has an installer that told them to use this cable or that cable and they don't use the cables that I recommend because "these worked before" and they have issues. They get the cables I tell them to and I'd say 99% of the time, it is no more issues from there out. 

I had an Anthem AVM60 until about 6 months ago. After one update I started having a few audio drops but I changed out to a longer HDMI (went from 2m to 4m I believe) and that solved the issue for me. I upgraded to a SDP-75 about 6 months ago or so (Trinnov ALT32 clone) and started having a lot of issues with HDMI audio. For one, you HAVE to use input 6 or 7 with the Alt32 models. But then I found out that the HDMI microcode AND firmware on my unit was out of date. This was updated and I was about 98% solid after that. Only issue after that was issues with initial lock on and lots of weird stuff with DTS specific titles. Come to find out these are Trinnov related as well. I was given beta firmware for both and since then I don't think I've had a single audio drop out and its been well over a month now. For sources I have an Oppo 203, AppleTV 4K, and Kscape Strato. 

My first advise to ANYONE is cables, cables, cables. I don't care that they worked "before" you had the Lumagen. Lumagen has stated from the start they have high edge rates so cable integrity is EXTREMELY important. There have been TONS of cable tests done and posted here on AVS that show that the majority of cables on the market right now can't even pass their advertised rates. I don't care about brand names with cables, I just care that they work. AudioQuest are probably the worst from my experience and I know their cables are NOT tested for bandwidth, which just blows my mind for a company that size. Jim recommends the Tributaries cables and those have been solid except a few exceptions with the active line recently (Tributaries is aware and looking into it). I use Tributaries 2 meter runs from equipment to my Lumagen and a 4 meter to my SDP. I've had just as much success with the Monoprice certified premium HDMI cables as long as they are 6ft runs and more. I use their slim line fiber from the Lumagen to the projector with ZERO issues. I am CONSTANTLY doing re-hook ups with my test Lumagen to my projector and sources to the test unit for building configurations and testing firmware with ZERO issues. And my test unit is an older 2U model that doesn't even have the latest caps on the chips. I go round and round with clients that insist they did what I asked with cables and are still having issues and then find out they didn't do what I asked and there is still some old cable they ran a few years ago or some other odd ball scenario and once that is resolved, the issues go away. 

Another thing to always consider with HDMI, if you have a Radiance (or any other HDMI switching device), I HIGHLY recommend that when you move from one source to another, YOU TURN OFF THE SOURCE YOU ARE NOT USING ANYMORE. Remember, any HDMI switch device has to be constantly verifying the other sources and active sources can wreak havoc. HDMI as a format SUCKS, we all know this, so try not to make it worse than it needs to be. 

I use my theater daily and turn it on and off 2-3 times a day for enjoying and work. If I was having HDMI issues like those talked about here, there is NO WAY I would be using a product that was causing them like some talk about here. I have WAY too much work to do to put up with that crap. But I can honestly say that it just NEVER happens. It doesn't with my 5348, my test unit or the standard 4242 that I had before them. I had a 4242-C with a 9G output for a field unit, NEVER had an issue with it at ANY client's home EVER. EVERY time I've actually been to a client's home to troubleshoot a Lumagen, 99.9% of the time it is a cable issue. I think the only times I can think of that were not a cable issue, it was a heat issue (had a client with a Radiance sitting on his amps) and as soon as we moved the Lumagen to a spot it should be in, all his issues vanished. I sell Lumagen products and recommend them all the time. There is NO WAY I would do this if they were creating these kind of problems all the time for my clients. I would be CONSTANTLY wasting my time trying to fix issues for them, and that isn't how I want to spend my time and it certainly isn't how I want them spending theirs either. 

I NEVER EVER EVER recommend running video sources through an AVR or SSP before the Lumagen. I know some here say it works fine, but I've had WAY too many clients with nothing but issues going this route and they are resolved when that is no longer the case. I tried it with two SSPs (Marantz and Anthem) and both times had nothing but issues.


----------



## Kris Deering

Izza1984 said:


> I have a Panasonic usb9000 my question is will the lumagen override the Panasonic tone mapping and apply it’s own?


You just turn off the Panasonic processing for HDR and the output is just like any other HDR device and the Lumagen processing works fine with it.


----------



## MOberhardt

Izza1984 said:


> I have a question will the lumagen pro work better with 4K blue ray player oppo 203 or Panasonic udb9000?


Well for blu ray, the panasonic is at a slight disadvantage as it doesn't have a source direct output mode so it will by default do the upscaling rather than the oppo. Oppo has a source direct mode. But you can use a different memory on the Lumagen and put a 1080 EDID on it and that forced the panasonic to output 1080.



Kris Deering said:


> Just want to chime in with some more inputs on this. Obviously I've been using a Lumagen for years now and have a LONG list of clients that use them as well. I hear about the HDMI issues constantly and nearly EVERY time it is some client that has an installer that told them to use this cable or that cable and they don't use the cables that I recommend because "these worked before" and they have issues. They get the cables I tell them to and I'd say 99% of the time, it is no more issues from there out.
> <snip>


Just to second that. I was having odd dropouts of video after putting the Lumagen in, and after getting a Tributaries UHDP Pro, went away. But hearing the various audio related issues as well, I do think I prefer the way I have it set up - between the AVR and the projector so I'm dealing with video only.


----------



## docrog

Izza1984 said:


> I have a question will the lumagen pro work better with 4K blue ray player oppo 203 or Panasonic udb9000?


Save yourself a *LOT *of money. You might find that the Sony UBP-X700 (check Amazon's currently discounted pricing) or newer & slightly pricier UBP-X800M2 (check Best Buy's discounted pricing) will provide you with an entirely comparable Blu Ray experience in 4K and 1080p (utilizing Lumagen's superior upscaling). FYI, my understanding is that the Panasonic models don't provide native resolution (source direct) output or SACD capability; both of these features are present in the Sony models at around 1/4 of the price of Oppo 203 & Panasonic 9000.


----------



## docrog

MOberhardt said:


> Just to second that. I was having odd dropouts of video after putting the Lumagen in, and after getting a Tributaries UHDP Pro, went away. But hearing the various audio related issues as well, I do think I prefer the way I have it set up - between the AVR and the projector so I'm dealing with video only.


+1


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> Just want to chime in with some more inputs on this. Obviously I've been using a Lumagen for years now and have a LONG list of clients that use them as well. I hear about the HDMI issues constantly and nearly EVERY time it is some client that has an installer that told them to use this cable or that cable and they don't use the cables that I recommend because "these worked before" and they have issues. They get the cables I tell them to and I'd say 99% of the time, it is no more issues from there out.
> 
> I had an Anthem AVM60 until about 6 months ago. After one update I started having a few audio drops but I changed out to a longer HDMI (went from 2m to 4m I believe) and that solved the issue for me. I upgraded to a SDP-75 about 6 months ago or so (Trinnov ALT32 clone) and started having a lot of issues with HDMI audio. For one, you HAVE to use input 6 or 7 with the Alt32 models. But then I found out that the HDMI microcode AND firmware on my unit was out of date. This was updated and I was about 98% solid after that. Only issue after that was issues with initial lock on and lots of weird stuff with DTS specific titles. Come to find out these are Trinnov related as well. I was given beta firmware for both and since then I don't think I've had a single audio drop out and its been well over a month now. For sources I have an Oppo 203, AppleTV 4K, and Kscape Strato.
> 
> My first advise to ANYONE is cables, cables, cables. I don't care that they worked "before" you had the Lumagen. Lumagen has stated from the start they have high edge rates so cable integrity is EXTREMELY important. There have been TONS of cable tests done and posted here on AVS that show that the majority of cables on the market right now can't even pass their advertised rates. I don't care about brand names with cables, I just care that they work. AudioQuest are probably the worst from my experience and I know their cables are NOT tested for bandwidth, which just blows my mind for a company that size. Jim recommends the Tributaries cables and those have been solid except a few exceptions with the active line recently (Tributaries is aware and looking into it). I use Tributaries 2 meter runs from equipment to my Lumagen and a 4 meter to my SDP. I've had just as much success with the Monoprice certified premium HDMI cables as long as they are 6ft runs and more. I use their slim line fiber from the Lumagen to the projector with ZERO issues. I am CONSTANTLY doing re-hook ups with my test Lumagen to my projector and sources to the test unit for building configurations and testing firmware with ZERO issues. And my test unit is an older 2U model that doesn't even have the latest caps on the chips. I go round and round with clients that insist they did what I asked with cables and are still having issues and then find out they didn't do what I asked and there is still some old cable they ran a few years ago or some other odd ball scenario and once that is resolved, the issues go away.
> 
> Another thing to always consider with HDMI, if you have a Radiance (or any other HDMI switching device), I HIGHLY recommend that when you move from one source to another, YOU TURN OFF THE SOURCE YOU ARE NOT USING ANYMORE. Remember, any HDMI switch device has to be constantly verifying the other sources and active sources can wreak havoc. HDMI as a format SUCKS, we all know this, so try not to make it worse than it needs to be.
> 
> I use my theater daily and turn it on and off 2-3 times a day for enjoying and work. If I was having HDMI issues like those talked about here, there is NO WAY I would be using a product that was causing them like some talk about here. I have WAY too much work to do to put up with that crap. But I can honestly say that it just NEVER happens. It doesn't with my 5348, my test unit or the standard 4242 that I had before them. I had a 4242-C with a 9G output for a field unit, NEVER had an issue with it at ANY client's home EVER. EVERY time I've actually been to a client's home to troubleshoot a Lumagen, 99.9% of the time it is a cable issue. I think the only times I can think of that were not a cable issue, it was a heat issue (had a client with a Radiance sitting on his amps) and as soon as we moved the Lumagen to a spot it should be in, all his issues vanished. I sell Lumagen products and recommend them all the time. There is NO WAY I would do this if they were creating these kind of problems all the time for my clients. I would be CONSTANTLY wasting my time trying to fix issues for them, and that isn't how I want to spend my time and it certainly isn't how I want them spending theirs either.
> 
> I NEVER EVER EVER recommend running video sources through an AVR or SSP before the Lumagen. I know some here say it works fine, but I've had WAY too many clients with nothing but issues going this route and they are resolved when that is no longer the case. I tried it with two SSPs (Marantz and Anthem) and both times had nothing but issues.


I, along with @steelman1991 and @garyolearysteele have tried every thing you have recommended here, including tributaries cables. It hasn’t stopped any of us still getting audio drop outs.

Monoprice cables didn’t work for me, and after testing a load, audioquest so far are definitely the most reliable, my problems haven’t disappeared, but they’re not too bad.

If I bypass the lumagen for audio, I NEVER get audio dropouts.

My problems started when I got my trinnov tbh, although as mentioned above, when I bypass the lumagen, I have no issues.


----------



## sunnya23

Technology3456 said:


> Edit: Also, a problem I thought of maybe six months ago, never figured out 100%, and forgot about. If you use a 2.35:1 screen, will the Lumagen take the subtitles from a blu-ray and move them into the 2.35:1 image?


If you're watching a blu-ray, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, you almost never have to worry about this as the subtitles are within the frame and not outside of it on the black borders. However, if you are watching any sort of streaming content such as on Netflix or Prime video you will have this issue where the subtitles will appear in the black border. I believe Kris made a video a while back that I saw on Youtube where you can shrink the image down to 2.2:1 aspect ratio so you're still maintaining an image that nearly fills your screen but also adds space at the bottom for subtitles to appear.


----------



## jrp

Wow, so much wrong data being posted... I will try once again to set the record straight.

First, it is absurd to say that I am saying "every other device has bad HDMI." The poster apparently did not read my last post. However, it is absolutely true there are a lot of devices that _do_ have marginal HDMI designs. We do our best in the Radiance Pro to mitigate these as I will discuss below. I will not repost what I just posted. Please scroll back and read my previous post.

The 2 meters minimum recommendation for passive HDMI cables is an HDMI organization recommendation for _all_ HDMI devices. It is _not_ specific to the Radiance Pro. This is due to the physics of HDMI cable EQ. The EQ requires cable attenuation for all HDMI devices for the HDMI "system" to work correctly. The difference is we are finding that for 4k HDMI that 3 meters appears to be the sweet spot for passive cable length. This is due to the physics of the HDMI signaling and is _not_ specific to the the Radiance Pro.

The Radiance Pro output has been tested on the $200k Tektronix HDMI test set. This device is the industry defacto reference standard for HDMI testing. The person doing the testing said the Radiance Pro output has the lowest jitter and lowest electrical noise of any HDMI device he has tested. The Radiance Pro 4XXX output edge rates are near the fast end of the spec, but well within spec. So, if there are dropout issues it is that the receiving device is _not_ meeting HDMI specification, or it could be there needs to be a better/longer HDMI cable to mitigate the HDMI cable EQ.

Choosing the appropriate HDMI cables is still the key to eliminating audio dropouts. As I mentioned in previous posts, for the Lumagen Demo Theater, which uses a Trinnov Altitude 16, we eliminated a rare audio dropout for the Kaleidescape Strato movie server switching from 2 meter to 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cables. HDMI cables are part of the HDMI "system" which consists of the HDMI output, the cable, and the HDMI input. Since these vary you may find the best cable length needed for your system is different than for others.

Someone asked if the Radiance Pro can further mitigate the "marginality in other devices." Reasonable question. The answer is that we already are bending over backwards to do just that. We have dramatically reduced output jitter since early Radiance Pro revisions, and have reduced electrical noise as well. We have gone from taking the Radiance Pro's share of HDMI margin to now, especially with the Radiance Pro 5348, giving nearly all the HDMI margin to the connected devices. However, there is only so much the Radiance Pro can do to help the marginal HDMI designs.

As mentioned above, the Radiance Pro 4XXX series outputs do have edge rates near the fast end of the HDMI spec, but they are well within specification. For the 4XXX model we cannot control the output edge rates. In the 5348 we added T.I. HDMI buffers reduce the output edge rates, and turn off output-EQ, to further help with marginal devices.

In addition, the 5348 has output level control. I believe I have mentioned this, but you can increase the output level on Output 1 by about 20% by entering MENU 0718 (note: MENU 0715 gets you back to default "HDMI specification output voltage"). Then do a Save. We have seen that raising the Radiance Pro 5348 output voltage swing can help with marginal HDMI input designs.

Trinnov owners: I know I have said this before, but definitely use input 6 or 7 if your Trinnov has the older 4k input card. If you have 7 inputs on your Trinnov you have the older HDMI switch board, and if you have 8 you have the newer HDMI switch board. Do not use input 1 to 4 with the Trinnov older 4k HDMI input card. Not sure if there is a "best choice" with the latest Trinnov switch version. Initial feedback on the New Trinnov HDMI switch board has been positive on reducing/eliminating audio dropouts. I am trying to confirm if this is true and would like to hear from Trinnov owners who have the new HDMI switch board. I do want to make sure that people understand that we love the sound the Trinnov produces in the Lumagen Demo Theater, and it is great that the longer cables have eliminated the rare audio dropout using our Kaleidescape Strato/Terra movie server.

Storm Audio processor owners: Make sure you have the latest input card from Storm Audio. The owners and dealers I have talked to have told me they never have an audio dropout using the Pro output for audio with the new Storm Audio HDMI switch board. I would like to hear if anyone with the new Storm Audio HDMI switch board can add additional data points either way.

Anthem audio processor owners: The limited feedback we have on these is that a longer HDMI cable eliminates audio dropouts. One Anthem owner went form a 2 meter to a 6 meter (the only longer length he had), and that resolved his audio dropouts.

If you have a Denon, Sony, Integra, or Marantz, the feedback we are getting is these have much better HDMI inputs than most high-end audio processors (exceptions noted above).

If you have feedback on a specific AVR or audio processor, I am interested in having the addition information. You can send an email to the lumagen.com support email, or if you prefer you can post here.

======= 

If you have audio dropouts, I have been very successful helping owners eliminate them. You can send an email to the lumagen.com support email to get this process started.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mark Burton said:


> I, along with @steelman1991 and @garyolearysteele have tried every thing you have recommended here, including tributaries cables. It hasn’t stopped any of us still getting audio drop outs.
> 
> Monoprice cables didn’t work for me, and after testing a load, audioquest so far are definitely the most reliable, my problems haven’t disappeared, but they’re not too bad.
> 
> If I bypass the lumagen for audio, I NEVER get audio dropouts.
> 
> My problems started when I got my trinnov tbh, although as mentioned above, when I bypass the lumagen, I have no issues.


Absolutely. I’ve kept most of my discussions on this in private messages, one thing that’s consistent across all of us having this issue is nobody is anti lumagen, we’re all fans, we’ve all taken onboard the advice and spent time and money trying to solve the issues. It always seems to descend to argument with lots of SHOUTING about how anyone with the issue is WRONG and doesn’t LISTEN.. I’ll stop that now since it’s annoying 😂.. but seriously we get it, we do. The HDMI spec inventors should be beaten to death with the severed limbs of the HDCP and HDR loons or at least slapped round the face with a wet fish, in 8K because it’s a bigger number than 4. We have been down the cable route, many many cables, all certified, different lengths, put in intermediate devices, changes settings…nothing yet has seemed to work but one thing, taking the lumagen out of the audio chain and then the problem has gone…none of the folk I’ve spoken with has any ill will here, nobody thinks they know more than the professionals, just looking for solutions


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark Burton said:


> I, along with @steelman1991 and @garyolearysteele have tried every thing you have recommended here, including tributaries cables. It hasn’t stopped any of us still getting audio drop outs.
> 
> Monoprice cables didn’t work for me, and after testing a load, audioquest so far are definitely the most reliable, my problems haven’t disappeared, but they’re not too bad.
> 
> If I bypass the lumagen for audio, I NEVER get audio dropouts.
> 
> My problems started when I got my trinnov tbh, although as mentioned above, when I bypass the lumagen, I have no issues.


Hi Mark. I saw you post that you have a Trinnov. What model are you using? As I mentioned before, I was having issues with audio dropouts when I put mine in and it turned out it was an issue on the Trinnov side. Since getting things on that end resolved, dropouts have been a thing of the past. 

I can't speak for the others. If they are continuing to have issues after troubleshooting, they should work with their dealer to see if it could indeed be an issue with their Radiance.


----------



## Karl Maga

Kris Deering said:


> Just want to chime in with some more inputs on this. Obviously I've been using a Lumagen for years now and have a LONG list of clients that use them as well. I hear about the HDMI issues constantly and nearly EVERY time it is some client that has an installer that told them to use this cable or that cable and they don't use the cables that I recommend because "these worked before" and they have issues. They get the cables I tell them to and I'd say 99% of the time, it is no more issues from there out.
> 
> I had an Anthem AVM60 until about 6 months ago. After one update I started having a few audio drops but I changed out to a longer HDMI (went from 2m to 4m I believe) and that solved the issue for me. I upgraded to a SDP-75 about 6 months ago or so (Trinnov ALT32 clone) and started having a lot of issues with HDMI audio. For one, you HAVE to use input 6 or 7 with the Alt32 models. But then I found out that the HDMI microcode AND firmware on my unit was out of date. This was updated and I was about 98% solid after that. Only issue after that was issues with initial lock on and lots of weird stuff with DTS specific titles. Come to find out these are Trinnov related as well. I was given beta firmware for both and since then I don't think I've had a single audio drop out and its been well over a month now. For sources I have an Oppo 203, AppleTV 4K, and Kscape Strato.
> 
> My first advise to ANYONE is cables, cables, cables. I don't care that they worked "before" you had the Lumagen. Lumagen has stated from the start they have high edge rates so cable integrity is EXTREMELY important. There have been TONS of cable tests done and posted here on AVS that show that the majority of cables on the market right now can't even pass their advertised rates. I don't care about brand names with cables, I just care that they work. AudioQuest are probably the worst from my experience and I know their cables are NOT tested for bandwidth, which just blows my mind for a company that size. Jim recommends the Tributaries cables and those have been solid except a few exceptions with the active line recently (Tributaries is aware and looking into it). I use Tributaries 2 meter runs from equipment to my Lumagen and a 4 meter to my SDP. I've had just as much success with the Monoprice certified premium HDMI cables as long as they are 6ft runs and more. I use their slim line fiber from the Lumagen to the projector with ZERO issues. I am CONSTANTLY doing re-hook ups with my test Lumagen to my projector and sources to the test unit for building configurations and testing firmware with ZERO issues. And my test unit is an older 2U model that doesn't even have the latest caps on the chips. I go round and round with clients that insist they did what I asked with cables and are still having issues and then find out they didn't do what I asked and there is still some old cable they ran a few years ago or some other odd ball scenario and once that is resolved, the issues go away.
> 
> Another thing to always consider with HDMI, if you have a Radiance (or any other HDMI switching device), I HIGHLY recommend that when you move from one source to another, YOU TURN OFF THE SOURCE YOU ARE NOT USING ANYMORE. Remember, any HDMI switch device has to be constantly verifying the other sources and active sources can wreak havoc. HDMI as a format SUCKS, we all know this, so try not to make it worse than it needs to be.
> 
> I use my theater daily and turn it on and off 2-3 times a day for enjoying and work. If I was having HDMI issues like those talked about here, there is NO WAY I would be using a product that was causing them like some talk about here. I have WAY too much work to do to put up with that crap. But I can honestly say that it just NEVER happens. It doesn't with my 5348, my test unit or the standard 4242 that I had before them. I had a 4242-C with a 9G output for a field unit, NEVER had an issue with it at ANY client's home EVER. EVERY time I've actually been to a client's home to troubleshoot a Lumagen, 99.9% of the time it is a cable issue. I think the only times I can think of that were not a cable issue, it was a heat issue (had a client with a Radiance sitting on his amps) and as soon as we moved the Lumagen to a spot it should be in, all his issues vanished. I sell Lumagen products and recommend them all the time. There is NO WAY I would do this if they were creating these kind of problems all the time for my clients. I would be CONSTANTLY wasting my time trying to fix issues for them, and that isn't how I want to spend my time and it certainly isn't how I want them spending theirs either.
> 
> I NEVER EVER EVER recommend running video sources through an AVR or SSP before the Lumagen. I know some here say it works fine, but I've had WAY too many clients with nothing but issues going this route and they are resolved when that is no longer the case. I tried it with two SSPs (Marantz and Anthem) and both times had nothing but issues.


I followed every detail of every recommendation you made to me, and I have _*never*_ had any audio drop outs since you shipped my Radiance Pro to me. All sources to Radiance Pro, audio from RP to Marantz, video from RP to JVC NX7.

But, this is the first that I recall shutting off sources has been mentioned. 

Dumb luck (only kind I am qualified for) has me doing exactly that (turning off sources) because I use a Logitech Harmony Elite and that is the default power behavior when switching sources. My sources are Roku Ultra, ATV4K, Kaleidescape Strato S, Sony UBP-X800, Spectrum Cable DVR.


----------



## Killroy

sunnya23 said:


> If you're watching a blu-ray, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, you almost never have to worry about this as the subtitles are within the frame and not outside of it on the black borders.


Gawd I wish that was true!!! I have to manually move subs that are outside the active frame (in the black bars) in about 40% of Blu-rays. UHD discs are a bit better as those are about 10-20% outside the active area.


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> Hi Mark. I saw you post that you have a Trinnov. What model are you using? As I mentioned before, I was having issues with audio dropouts when I put mine in and it turned out it was an issue on the Trinnov side. Since getting things on that end resolved, dropouts have been a thing of the past.
> 
> I can't speak for the others. If they are continuing to have issues after troubleshooting, they should work with their dealer to see if it could indeed be an issue with their Radiance.


I have the older hdmi altitude 16. All my firmware is up to date - I have been in conversation with trinnov about the dropouts, they’re at a loss themselves.

@steelman1991 has the newer altitude board. We’ve both been trying to resolve these issues and have been in communication with each other over it. @steelman1991 has managed to resolve his (against recommendations on here) by going all feed into the trinnov, then into the lumagen and through to the PJ, using the lumagen audio output immediately gives him drop outs from his kaleidascape, regardless of cables (he’s tried tributaries). This doesn’t work for me as I think the older hdmi boards aren’t good enough on the altitude.

I never had any issues on my previous Marantz 8805 going the same route as @steelman1991 but have had the trinnov for 12 months now, it had been a constant battle, but using the separate audio output on my zappiti pro cinema edition does resolve it - this isn’t something I want to use as I want the low jitter audio performance of the 5348.

I have reduced the dropouts down considerably by increasing the voltage swing on the 5348 and adding in my latest cables, at a guess I’d say I get a drop out once every 6/7 films now, so it’s not too bad, whereas previously it was every film.

Film codec seems random on what causes the issue.


----------



## Nima

I have a CIH setup (zooming) and I have a very distracting dust blob in the optics of my Epson LS PJ which kept me from enjoying movies especially in dark scenes.

But Lumagen Radiance Pro came to the rescue. I shifted the 21:9 content area in the styles -> shrink menu completely up (top of the panel) which I then corrected via the PJ lens shift.

Voila! The dust blob is gone ie. not in the visible area anymore. Thank you @jrp for this marvelous product.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark Burton said:


> I have the older hdmi altitude 16. All my firmware is up to date - I have been in conversation with trinnov about the dropouts, they’re at a loss themselves.
> 
> @steelman1991 has the newer altitude board. We’ve both been trying to resolve these issues and have been in communication with each other over it. @steelman1991 has managed to resolve his (against recommendations on here) by going all feed into the trinnov, then into the lumagen and through to the PJ, using the lumagen audio output immediately gives him drop outs from his kaleidascape, regardless of cables (he’s tried tributaries). This doesn’t work for me as I think the older hdmi boards aren’t good enough on the altitude.
> 
> I never had any issues on my previous Marantz 8805 going the same route as @steelman1991 but have had the trinnov for 12 months now, it had been a constant battle, but using the separate audio output on my zappiti pro cinema edition does resolve it - this isn’t something I want to use as I want the low jitter audio performance of the 5348.
> 
> I have reduced the dropouts down considerably by increasing the voltage swing on the 5348 and adding in my latest cables, at a guess I’d say I get a drop out once every 6/7 films now, so it’s not too bad, whereas previously it was every film.
> 
> Film codec seems random on what causes the issue.


Interesting. If your AL has the older 7 input board, obviously make sure you are using input 7. I had to do THREE sessions with Trinnov support to get things right with my board. When it arrived I was having a lot of issues. Had someone look at it remotely and they said the microcode and firmware for the HDMI board was wrong. That got updated. Helped a bit but still had issues. Then they did some other type of clean up (not sure what it was), that helped too. Then I got a beta firmware to help with Atmos and time it takes to lock on the signal. That made a HUGE difference, especially when the movie just starts. I still get drops occasionally, but it is always a DTS track and Trinnov knows it has issues with DTS. It is especially bad with DTS stereo tracks. I know if you use Neural there can be overload issues that cause a big crack through the speakers randomly too. I would definitely pay close attention to what type of track you are listening to when you get the drop out.


----------



## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> I have the older hdmi altitude 16. All my firmware is up to date - I have been in conversation with Trinnov about the dropouts, they’re at a loss themselves. ...


Sounds like you are close to solving your issues. A couple of suggestions (which you may have tried but here they are):

- Please check to see what the audio format is if you get an audio dropout. As Kris mentioned, there is a known issue with DTS HD audio in the Trinnov. If the source is DTS HD, it could be that you need the Trinnov Beta release, which I believe helps with this issue. I do not know of any issues the Trinnov has with ATMOS. So, if the source is ATMOS when you get a dropout, likely something else.

- As Kris mentioned there is Beta software for the Trinnov that helped him with audio dropouts, and lock-on. You might see if you can pry this loose from Trinnov. I have not resorted to trying to get the Trinnov Beta since ours is working, but I have considered it to eliminate the on-off-on-off-on signal lock process in the Trinnov (which talking to Kris is resolved with the Beta).

- As mentioned, use input 6 or 7 on the Trinnov with your older switch board.

- I strongly recommend a Tributaries UHDP passive for the source and from the Radiance Pro to the Trinnov. Maybe you have one of these already. If you using 2, or even 3, meter UHDP cables, I recommend trying a 5 meter UHDP from the Pro to the Trinnov. When I looked at the Altitude HDMI switch board (the older OEM version you have), it was immediately obvious that the designer did not understand transmission line circuit board layout. So, I strongly suspect the necessary inner-layer layout techniques for microwave speed transmission lines were not followed. Note that every HDMI connection will have some level of signal reflections due to impedance-discontinuities. It is up to the circuit board layout designer to make sure these are minimized. The 5 meter cable "rolls off" the signal due to capacitive signal attenuation. Since the audio-only outputs run at "2k speeds" this does not hurt the signal and _will_ reduce the reflections caused by a marginal input layout. It might get you the rest of the way to the no-dropout state. You will not know until you try of course.

- Unplug half-way and re-plug each end of every HDMI cable 5 times. If you prefer to unplug all the way each time, I recommend disconnecting wall power from everything before you do this. The last time push in firmly while wiggling the plug left and right to help seat the connection. Not saying this will solve your issue, but it has in _many_ cases.

- I am available to help on the phone. Call the number on the lumagen.com website. If you (or anyone who needs help) do not get an answer, please leave a message with a call-back number. If you are not in the USA, please get Google Duo Video Chat as that makes the call free and works well for international support calls. Or you can email the lumagen.com support email to get the conversation started.


----------



## Ian_Currie

A hopefully quick question: is there a way to configure the Pro to only use sharpening on non-HDR sources?


----------



## bjorg

Ian_Currie said:


> A hopefully quick question: is there a way to configure the Pro to only use sharpening on non-HDR sources?


I was under the impression the settings are per resolution.


----------



## Surge2018

I'm having an issue upscaling 480i content to 4K using the 5348. The disc is being played on an Oppo 203 which is set to Source Direct video output. The Lumagen is seeing 480i and upscaling to 4K, before sending direct to the JVC RS3000.
What I'm seeing on the JVC is a weird flickering, or on/off highlight pulsing -- almost like a DSLR that's pulsing to show the blown highlights or focus peaking...
I can't seem to add a video clip here, so I'm not sure how to show it. 
Bottom line is that the images is flickering a lot, in certain areas of the frame.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> A hopefully quick question: is there a way to configure the Pro to only use sharpening on non-HDR sources?


since HDR is always 4K, just turn it off when you have a 4K source playing and save the setting.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Kris Deering said:


> since HDR is always 4K, just turn it off when you have a 4K source playing and save the setting.


Perfect. I was under the impression that would turn it off for everything @2160p which I didn't want. I like to use it for 1080p content but unfortunately all my players scale 1080p to 2160p so my only way to automate it would be HDR.

Thanks, Kris.


----------



## fatherom

Ian_Currie said:


> Perfect. I was under the impression that would turn it off for everything @2160p which I didn't want. I like to use it for 1080p content but unfortunately all my players scale 1080p to 2160p so my only way to automate it would be HDR.
> 
> Thanks, Kris.


I think it actually _is_ per resolution (not HDR)...Kris will correct me if I'm wrong. I think he was saying that any content that is HDR is 4K, but obviously if you're upscaling to 4K before the lumagen, then that won't work.


----------



## Ian_Currie

fatherom said:


> I think it actually _is_ per resolution (not HDR)...Kris will correct me if I'm wrong. I think he was saying that any content that is HDR is 4K, but obviously if you're upscaling to 4K before the lumagen, then that won't work.


Ahhh, yes, it sounds like he did mean it that way. 

Looks like I'll have to manually turn it on and off. I've found it can create a real digital look on some 4k content ... but looks great the rest of the time.


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> Perfect. I was under the impression that would turn it off for everything @2160p which I didn't want. I like to use it for 1080p content but unfortunately all my players scale 1080p to 2160p so my only way to automate it would be HDR.
> 
> Thanks, Kris.


that won’t work. It is per resolution, so if the player is outputting 4K, you’re stuck.


----------



## Craig Peer

Killroy said:


> Gawd I wish that was true!!! I have to manually move subs that are outside the active frame (in the black bars) in about 40% of Blu-rays. UHD discs are a bit better as those are about 10-20% outside the active area.


Then there are those rare foreign films where you can't move the subtitles - I have a couple of those.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Craig Peer said:


> Then there are those rare foreign films where you can't move the subtitles - I have a couple of those.


This is one benefit of using an HTPC, you can have all subs automatically moved into the content area...


----------



## jrp

More data on a good audio processor HDMI result:

I just had an email from a Radiance Pro owner saying they have _never_ had an audio dropout using the Radiance Pro output driving their McIntosh MX160. This includes both the Radiance Pro 4XXX he used to have, and continues after his upgrade to Radiance Pro 5348. We have a number of customers using the Pro output to drive an MX160, and I do not know of any issues being reported. This is a good indication that McIntosh has done a good job on their HDMI input design.

As a side note the Radiance Pro 5348 owner said this was true even using 1 meter cables, before he switched to my recommended 2 to 3 meter18 GHz certified HDMI cables. So, 1 meter cables can work in some situations, and shows each system can be different in requirements. While I always recommend at least 2 meter cables we do have customers, in addition to this case, using 1 meter cable successfully. It's just that the 2 meter to 3 meter cables are in the sweet-spot for the appropriate amount of cable attenuation.


----------



## MOberhardt

Ian_Currie said:


> This is one benefit of using an HTPC, you can have all subs automatically moved into the content area...


Unfortunatelyt not when they are burnt in, which is a pretty lazy mastering job...


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> A hopefully quick question: is there a way to configure the Pro to only use sharpening on non-HDR sources?


The output CMS can be changed automatically between SDR and HDR, but the edge enhancements are in the input memory, which cannot be automatically changed for SDR versus HDR.

If SDR content is 1080 or less, and you only have HDR content for 4k source material, then you could have different settings automatically selected based on resolution. However, if you have 4k SDR content, and 4k HDR content, you would need to setup a different input memory for HDR. Then you would select the memory for SDR or HDR as appropriate.


----------



## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> Unfortunatelyt not when they are burnt in, which is a pretty lazy mastering job...


These few discs have the subs burned into the black bar area like you say. I just have to watch them without the DCR lens with a special lens memory setting on my RS4500. Whatever works - good films are worth the effort.


----------



## Technology3456

Ian_Currie said:


> This is one benefit of using an HTPC, you can have all subs automatically moved into the content area...


Does the Lumagen move subtitles from the letterbox black bars into the 2.35:1 image, or not? And am I correct in guessing that it makes no difference whether you use the zoom method, or an anamorphic lens, either way, you will need to move the subtitles?


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> This is one benefit of using an HTPC, you can have all subs automatically moved into the content area...


That should only work if the subs are generated by the player itself. If the subs are hard encoded into the video (not player generated), it won't make any difference what you are playing it from.


----------



## Kris Deering

Craig Peer said:


> These few discs have the subs burned into the black bar area like you say. I just have to watch them without the DCR lens with a special lens memory setting on my RS4500. Whatever works - good films are worth the effort.


You shouldn't need to remove the lens. I would just use the manual aspect selection to switch to an aspect that is not quite as wide which will allow for some head and toe room in the image. So if the movie is 2.4, just try a 2.2 or 2.0 aspect. This will preserve more width and allow for the area the subs are in.


----------



## Kris Deering

Technology3456 said:


> Does the Lumagen move subtitles from the letterbox black bars into the 2.35:1 image, or not? And am I correct in guessing that it makes no difference whether you use the zoom method, or an anamorphic lens, either way, you will need to move the subtitles?


The Lumagen can't move something that is part of the incoming image. The subtitles are either burned in or they are player generated. Since the Lumagen isn't generating the subs in the first place, it can't move them. You can compensate with narrower aspect ratios though so you don't have to go to a full 16x9 image when you have a scope setup.


----------



## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> The Lumagen can't move something that is part of the incoming image. The subtitles are either burned in or they are player generated. Since the Lumagen isn't generating the subs in the first place, it can't move them. You can compensate with narrower aspect ratios though so you don't have to go to a full 16x9 image when you have a scope setup.


Thanks. Is there a way to have a full 2.35:1 image and not lose the subtitles? Not with a Lumagen but with something else? How do people with 2.35:1 screens use subtitles when watching 2.35:1 movies?


----------



## sor

Technology3456 said:


> Thanks. Is there a way to have a full 2.35:1 image and not lose the subtitles? Not with a Lumagen but with something else? How do people with 2.35:1 screens use subtitles when watching 2.35:1 movies?


It’s going to depend on your playback device (if the show has adjustable on/off subtitles then it’s usually the app or device that is displaying them). I’ve only had one case where the subtitles weren’t visible, they usually display within the movie frame when I watch via iTunes purchases or Hulu.


----------



## MOberhardt

Technology3456 said:


> Thanks. Is there a way to have a full 2.35:1 image and not lose the subtitles? Not with a Lumagen but with something else? How do people with 2.35:1 screens use subtitles when watching 2.35:1 movies?


For discs, buy a player that supports subtitle shift. Personally I think the Panasonics are the best as they have finer control, and allow you to drop the luminance, so not blinding 100% white.


----------



## Technology3456

MOberhardt said:


> For discs, buy a player that supports subtitle shift. Personally I think the Panasonics are the best as they have finer control, and allow you to drop the luminance, so not blinding 100% white.


My 4K player is the Sony x800m. I will also get a pre-flashed 4K UHD drive to play 4K discs off PC. Will either of these options work? Then for streaming, I dont know, I have to get something that is good for 4K streaming, but havent looked into it much yet. What do you recommend? Just something cheap, that will output the movies correctly at 23.976fps, and give me access to all the streaming apps, but otherwise, stay out of the way, and let a processor like the Lumagen do all the heavy lifting. I dont need to pay double for overlapping features that the streaming box doesnt do as well as a higher end processor anyway.


----------



## MOberhardt

Technology3456 said:


> My 4K player is the Sony x800m. I will also get a pre-flashed 4K UHD drive to play 4K discs off PC. Will either of these options work? Then for streaming, I dont know, I have to get something that is good for 4K streaming, but havent looked into it much yet. What do you recommend? Just something cheap, that will output the movies correctly at 23.976fps, and give me access to all the streaming apps, but otherwise, stay out of the way, and let a processor like the Lumagen do all the heavy lifting. I dont need to pay double for overlapping features that the streaming box doesnt do as well as a higher end processor anyway.


Streaming - not sure. Apple TV has great framerate support, and good subtitle style control so can make them nice and small and transparent, but I don't think it allows them to move. I barely watch anything other than disc and when I do streaming, I can't think of any foreign language.

I think the Sony 800 allows subtitle shift, but definitely not luminance control.


----------



## Killroy

Craig Peer said:


> Then there are those rare foreign films where you can't move the subtitles - I have a couple of those.


If they are burned (encoded) into the video then you are SOL. But there are PGS subs that are restricted from shifting via players. Only thing you can do is demux the PGS stream, move them in a PGS editor, then remux them back into the BDMV folder or make an MKV.

I spend more time dealing with subs than it takes me to remux a simple disc.


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> You shouldn't need to remove the lens. I would just use the manual aspect selection to switch to an aspect that is not quite as wide which will allow for some head and toe room in the image. So if the movie is 2.4, just try a 2.2 or 2.0 aspect. This will preserve more width and allow for the area the subs are in.


I can usually still read white subtitles even spilling off the screen - if they aren't cut off by the lens. With 2 screens and an easily removed lens, I've got several ways to do it. I just have to remember the few movies I have where the subtitles can't be repositioned.


----------



## Craig Peer

MOberhardt said:


> For discs, buy a player that supports subtitle shift. Personally I think the Panasonics are the best as they have finer control, and allow you to drop the luminance, so not blinding 100% white.


The subtitle position doesn't stick on the Panny. It does on the Oppo.


----------



## Killroy

Craig Peer said:


> The subtitle position doesn't stick on the Panny. It does on the Oppo.


And this is why I demux/remux every single scope film that has subs outside the active area. Major pet peeve of mine.


----------



## Kris Deering

I use an Oppo (shifts subtitles), a Kaleidescape (shifts subtitles) and an AppleTV (allows some manipulation, but not shifting unfortunately). I would say I use the ATV the least and rarely have sub issues based on the content I'm watching (I think I've only had an issue twice). I guess this is only an issue if you use subtitles a lot with sources that just don't have a lot of adjustment, but that isn't my usage case luckily.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Wow, so much wrong data being posted... I will try once again to set the record straight.
> 
> First, it is absurd to say that I am saying "every other device has bad HDMI." The poster apparently did not read my last post. However, it is absolutely true there are a lot of devices that _do_ have marginal HDMI designs. We do our best in the Radiance Pro to mitigate these as I will discuss below. I will not repost what I just posted. Please scroll back and read my previous post.
> 
> The 2 meters minimum recommendation for passive HDMI cables is an HDMI organization recommendation for _all_ HDMI devices. It is _not_ specific to the Radiance Pro. This is due to the physics of HDMI cable EQ. The EQ requires cable attenuation for all HDMI devices for the HDMI "system" to work correctly. The difference is we are finding that for 4k HDMI that 3 meters appears to be the sweet spot for passive cable length. This is due to the physics of the HDMI signaling and is _not_ specific to the the Radiance Pro.
> 
> The Radiance Pro output has been tested on the $200k Tektronix HDMI test set. This device is the industry defacto reference standard for HDMI testing. The person doing the testing said the Radiance Pro output has the lowest jitter and lowest electrical noise of any HDMI device he has tested. The Radiance Pro 4XXX output edge rates are near the fast end of the spec, but well within spec. So, if there are dropout issues it is that the receiving device is _not_ meeting HDMI specification, or it could be there needs to be a better/longer HDMI cable to mitigate the HDMI cable EQ.
> 
> Choosing the appropriate HDMI cables is still the key to eliminating audio dropouts. As I mentioned in previous posts, for the Lumagen Demo Theater, which uses a Trinnov Altitude 16, we eliminated a rare audio dropout for the Kaleidescape Strato movie server switching from 2 meter to 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cables. HDMI cables are part of the HDMI "system" which consists of the HDMI output, the cable, and the HDMI input. Since these vary you may find the best cable length needed for your system is different than for others.
> 
> Someone asked if the Radiance Pro can further mitigate the "marginality in other devices." Reasonable question. The answer is that we already are bending over backwards to do just that. We have dramatically reduced output jitter since early Radiance Pro revisions, and have reduced electrical noise as well. We have gone from taking the Radiance Pro's share of HDMI margin to now, especially with the Radiance Pro 5348, giving nearly all the HDMI margin to the connected devices. However, there is only so much the Radiance Pro can do to help the marginal HDMI designs.
> 
> As mentioned above, the Radiance Pro 4XXX series outputs do have edge rates near the fast end of the HDMI spec, but they are well within specification. For the 4XXX model we cannot control the output edge rates. In the 5348 we added T.I. HDMI buffers reduce the output edge rates, and turn off output-EQ, to further help with marginal devices.
> 
> In addition, the 5348 has output level control. I believe I have mentioned this, but you can increase the output level on Output 1 by about 20% by entering MENU 0718 (note: MENU 0715 gets you back to default "HDMI specification output voltage"). Then do a Save. We have seen that raising the Radiance Pro 5348 output voltage swing can help with marginal HDMI input designs.
> 
> Trinnov owners: I know I have said this before, but definitely use input 6 or 7 if your Trinnov has the older 4k input card. If you have 7 inputs on your Trinnov you have the older HDMI switch board, and if you have 8 you have the newer HDMI switch board. Do not use input 1 to 4 with the Trinnov older 4k HDMI input card. Not sure if there is a "best choice" with the latest Trinnov switch version. Initial feedback on the New Trinnov HDMI switch board has been positive on reducing/eliminating audio dropouts. I am trying to confirm if this is true and would like to hear from Trinnov owners who have the new HDMI switch board. I do want to make sure that people understand that we love the sound the Trinnov produces in the Lumagen Demo Theater, and it is great that the longer cables have eliminated the rare audio dropout using our Kaleidescape Strato/Terra movie server.
> 
> Storm Audio processor owners: Make sure you have the latest input card from Storm Audio. The owners and dealers I have talked to have told me they never have an audio dropout using the Pro output for audio with the new Storm Audio HDMI switch board. I would like to hear if anyone with the new Storm Audio HDMI switch board can add additional data points either way.
> 
> Anthem audio processor owners: The limited feedback we have on these is that a longer HDMI cable eliminates audio dropouts. One Anthem owner went form a 2 meter to a 6 meter (the only longer length he had), and that resolved his audio dropouts.
> 
> If you have a Denon, Sony, Integra, or Marantz, the feedback we are getting is these have much better HDMI inputs than most high-end audio processors (exceptions noted above).
> 
> If you have feedback on a specific AVR or audio processor, I am interested in having the addition information. You can send an email to the lumagen.com support email, or if you prefer you can post here.
> 
> =======
> 
> If you have audio dropouts, I have been very successful helping owners eliminate them. You can send an email to the lumagen.com support email to get this process started.


Is it safe to assume that Trinnov users should still use HDMI 2 rather than 1 or that it really doesn't matter.

This is from the current Altitude 16 manual:
HDMI 2.0 - 7x2 HDMI 2.0 - 8x2

• HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 compliant digital audio with

4K and 3D video pass-through

• 7x HDMI Inputs, 2x HDMI Output

• Input #1-3 and output #1 are HDMI1.4

• Input #4-7 and output #2 are HDMI 2.0*

• HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 compliant digital audio with

4K and 3D video pass-through

• 8x HDMI Inputs 2x HDMI Outputs

• ARC/eARC compatibility

Output 1 feature down-scaling compatibility
=========================================================================================
"NOTE: outputs are not configurable, there is a hardware limitation that does not allow it. So output 1 is HDMI 1.4 
only and output 2 is HDMI 2.0."
=========================================================================================
And:
2 7x INPUTS HDMI, 2x OUTPUTS HDMI or 8x HDMI INPUTS, 2x HDMI OUTPUTS. All Inputs and Outputs are HDMI 2.0 compatible.*

Quite confusing....


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> I guess this is only an issue if you use subtitles a lot with sources that just don't have a lot of adjustment, but that isn't my usage case luckily.


Chinese and Japanese Blu-rays are notorious for putting subs in the black. And to make matters worse, they are sometimes using almost full frame PGS files are impossible to move. You literally have to convert them to PNG+XML files and then you can move them manually. I have a few Blu-rays that I have not been able to convert I have to watch them in the living room TV. Either lazy or incompetent authoring.


----------



## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> The subtitle position doesn't stick on the Panny. It does on the Oppo.


I don't see that as a positive to be honest (and I have both a 203 and a 9000). Sometimes I start a new movie and off screen and I don't know if I've then missed stuff (particularly early text in the movie opening that may be subbed). I watch a lot of subtitled movies, and up until recently I had to watch a lot on my oppo due to the disc region.

The granularity of positioning on the panasonic is so much finer, and the luminance control is to me a huge selling point. I finally have a panasonic that can do region A and B now, and I'll only be using the oppo if I hit some problem disc. 100% white subtitles is just obnoxious... It was obnoxious in the SDR era. Now it is worse!

I has asked earlier in the wondering if it would be possible for Lumagen to detect bright subtitles and dimm them


----------



## loggeo

When subtitles are hard coded, I disable them and use external via a usb stick on my OPPO 203.


----------



## MOberhardt

loggeo said:


> When subtitles are hard coded, I disable them and use external via a usb stick on my OPPO 203.


Doesn't help with burnt in subs sadly.

The oppo ones I've had some odd artefacts though, like when I've used external subs, when (I think) a forced subtitle appeared I'd see it flash inverted or rather as a mask on screen.


----------



## Clark Burk

Had a question about using a 16:9 screen with a JVC projector. I'm referring to Radiance Tech Tip 16. I want to rig up the screen with manually applied top masking. Will viewing a 2.35 image from say a 4K UHD and shifting the 2.35 image to the lower part of the 16:9 screen maintain 1:1 pixel matching or is scaling involved? Am I losing resolution by using this feature?


----------



## Kurvenal

Clark Burk said:


> Had a question about using a 16:9 screen with a JVC projector. I'm referring to Radiance Tech Tip 16. I want to rig up the screen with manually applied top masking. Will viewing a 2.35 image from say a 4K UHD and shifting the 2.35 image to the lower part of the 16:9 screen maintain 1:1 pixel matching or is scaling involved? Am I losing resolution by using this feature?


I have also just started using the Vertical Shift command with double-top screen masking to eliminate letterboxing by moving 2.35 and other aspect ratio content to the bottom of my 16:9 screen, which in addition to getting rid of the black bars also gives me a better viewing angle. My understanding is that if you use Vertical Shift you do not lose resolution. Using the Shrink command, on the other hand, will involve scaling and therefore you will lose resolution. 

Maybe someone else can provide a more definitive response?


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> Had a question about using a 16:9 screen with a JVC projector. I'm referring to Radiance Tech Tip 16. I want to rig up the screen with manually applied top masking. Will viewing a 2.35 image from say a 4K UHD and shifting the 2.35 image to the lower part of the 16:9 screen maintain 1:1 pixel matching or is scaling involved? Am I losing resolution by using this feature?


Moving the active pixels to the bottom of the image DOES NOT use scaling, so 1:1 pixel mapping is preserved.


----------



## Nima

And this moving is done via Styles --> Shrink, right?


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.
I have some questions about chroma subsampling of the Radiance Pro. The default and recommended output is 4:2:2. Why is 4:2:2 defaulted and recommended? Isn't 4:4:4 always better than 4:2:2?
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Kris Deering

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I have some questions about chroma subsampling of the Radiance Pro. The default and recommended output is 4:2:2. Why is 4:2:2 defaulted and recommended? Isn't 4:4:4 always better than 4:2:2?
> Thank you for your help and support.


Content is always 420, so in the case of what the video you're watching is, it will never be better than that inherently. 422 is 12 bit regardless of frame rate, 444 is limited to 10 bit at 60p. Ultimately what matters the most is what chroma sampling works the best with the display you have (based on what it does with the incoming signal). Lumagen has been 422 output for what feels like forever and it is rarely an issue, but they are considering going to a full 444 output with the pipeline enhancements.


----------



## Clark Burk

Thank you Kervenal and Kris for your replies to my question. That was the answer I was hoping for.


----------



## Kurvenal

Nima said:


> And this moving is done via Styles --> Shrink, right?


No, this is done with the Vertical Shift command. From RP Owner's Manual pg 25:

*Vertical Shift *

The vertical shift moves the image up and down without changing the Input Sizing settings. There are 15 vertical settings that are shared between all input memories. Select the vertical shift setting and then the shift value. The command is: 

*MENU *→ *Input *→ *In Configs *→ *[Resolution] *→ *[#]*→ *Size *→ *[Aspect Ratio]*→ *Vert Shift*


----------



## sjschaff

OK. Don't want to start any "religious war" but those of you who are using an audio processor, such as Trinnov, are you routing your sources into the audio first and sending video out to the Lumagen, or vice versa. Seems that in either case one component is "at the mercy" of the other in affecting what it receives and how it handles the bit stream, even if it claims to merely "pass through" either audio or video. Anyone tested both???


----------



## dlinsley

sjschaff said:


> Is it safe to assume that Trinnov users should still use HDMI 2 rather than 1 or that it really doesn't matter.


As a single data point, my AL16 has the new HDMI board (I bought my AL16 new in September 2020) and I use input 1 without issue. I just checked, and all inputs are set to 2.0 - I think the 2.0/1.4 just changes the EDID being reported. I'm basically down to Oppo 203 and Apple TV 4K sources only now, but they are routed into the Radiance 4446 1U first via 2m Tributaries UHD cables, with video direct to my JVC RS3000 and audio to the Trinnov (another 2m Tributaries UHD). I'll be checking wiring video+audio through the Trinnov to the JVC once they ship the OSD update.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Clark Burk said:


> Had a question about using a 16:9 screen with a JVC projector. I'm referring to Radiance Tech Tip 16. I want to rig up the screen with manually applied top masking. Will viewing a 2.35 image from say a 4K UHD and shifting the 2.35 image to the lower part of the 16:9 screen maintain 1:1 pixel matching or is scaling involved? Am I losing resolution by using this feature?


The recommended way is to use the Radiance as the switch and output to your processor for audio. Though some have audio drop outs using that configuration and have gone with the AVR as the switch. Personally I’d go with the recommendation unless you have problems and then if so go the other way. I’ve had lots of DM’s on it since posting that I had issues, mostly from Denon users, and it seems at least with Denon it’s better to avoid using the lumagen device for audio… two trinov users too in the past few pages are having the same issues… all say they can’t see a problem with using the AVR first with lumagen for video only. So if you have same and don’t want to argue all day about it or seems it’s easier to use the AVR as the video switch.


----------



## sjschaff

Thanks. That's the approach I've taken so far with the Trinnov I received yesterday. Only odd thing I needed to do, in replacing my aging Anthem D2V, was for one source: Tivo Roamio (over the air) had severe lip sync. Used the setting in the Lumagen to move the video delay around 100ms to bring things back to some semblance of normalcy. Haven't dug into the Trinnov manual to try and uncover the audio delay options. However it would seem, given only the one input, that being the Lumagen, it would be quite impossible to control the individual sources. Would require using the Trinnov as the switcher. It's one or the other...

Happened, as it turns out, to watch The Fifth Element last night via Zappiti. Sounded great. How appropriate KorbenDallas20!!


----------



## Clark Burk

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> The recommended way is to use the Radiance as the switch and output to your processor for audio. Though some have audio drop outs using that configuration and have gone with the AVR as the switch. Personally I’d go with the recommendation unless you have problems and then if so go the other way. I’ve had lots of DM’s on it since posting that I had issues, mostly from Denon users, and it seems at least with Denon it’s better to avoid using the lumagen device for audio… two trinov users too in the past few pages are having the same issues… all say they can’t see a problem with using the AVR first with lumagen for video only. So if you have same and don’t want to argue all day about it or seems it’s easier to use the AVR as the video switch.


I think you quoted the wrong post.


----------



## Nima

Kurvenal said:


> No, this is done with the Vertical Shift command. From RP Owner's Manual pg 25:
> 
> *Vertical Shift *
> 
> The vertical shift moves the image up and down without changing the Input Sizing settings. There are 15 vertical settings that are shared between all input memories. Select the vertical shift setting and then the shift value. The command is:
> 
> *MENU *→ *Input *→ *In Configs *→ *[Resolution] *→ *[#]*→ *Size *→ *[Aspect Ratio]*→ *Vert Shift*



@jrp what is the difference between moving the 21:9 image with shrink versus with vertical shift? 

I want to move my active image (2:35) area all the way up. Currently I have done so by setting shrink bottom to 24%.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> @jrp what is the difference between moving the 21:9 image with shrink versus with vertical shift?
> 
> I want to move my active image (2:35) area all the way up. Currently I have done so by setting shrink bottom to 24%.


Output shrink sets which pixels from the projector raster are used as the "active raster" image area. This allows you to fit the total active image area to the screen. It affects all sources assuming you use one output style.

Vertical Shift moves the source image up or down within the active raster. Typically you would use vertical shift to move a source aspect that is larger up or down (e.g. 2.40 moved to the bottom of the active raster area of a 16:9 screen). Since this is an input side control, this can be used for a single source or all sources.


----------



## Nima

Thanks Jim, so it sounds for a CIH setup shrink is the correct option.


----------



## J.P

With the latest updates. Lumagen paired with DCR-lens, is the auto aspect shift in Nolan-movies instant or is it still noticeable ?


----------



## riclarsen

J.P said:


> With the latest updates. Lumagen paired with DCR-lens, is the auto aspect shift in Nolan-movies instant or is it still noticeable ?


Auto aspect works, but it takes 2-3s before it switches. It would be great if we could configure this timing setting in the menu.


----------



## bobof

J.P said:


> With the latest updates. Lumagen paired with DCR-lens, is the auto aspect shift in Nolan-movies instant or is it still noticeable ?


There haven't been any notable changes in detection speed with auto aspect. Sometimes it will detect very quickly, but others it will take a moment (eg if the scene is darker, rendering the aspect somewhat ambiguous).
In any case, there's no autoaspect use with a DCR lens and scope screen that I can think of that makes any (cinematic) sense with a Nolan film. 

The IMAX scenes are supposed to have more impact than the non-Imax scenes, and the same horizontal viewing angle. Anything you do with Auto aspect to shrink the 16:9 "IMAX" views down to fit in the CIH screen breaks the intended presentation. Sure, you see everything in shot, but in the wrong perspective (all the IMAX scenes are now much further away from you, instantaneously taking you out of the action, not bringing you in). 

The only presentation that makes sense of those scenes with a scope screen is what you get in a scope-only theatre, which is a crop presentation. Unfortunately though this doesn't fully work either, as the scope cinematic crop of these movies is NOT the centre section of the image (inspite of what some say) - when creating the scope version of the movie they do scan the active scope framing around to make most sense. There are some good examples of this I was shown recently for the movie "Tenet". This is why some scenes don't look quite right, as the optimal cropping is not the centre of the image. To be honest though, it is almost certainly the lesser crime.


----------



## bobof

riclarsen said:


> Auto aspect works, but it takes 2-3s before it switches. It would be great if we could configure this timing setting in the menu.


I don't think this would be of help with the current algorithm. It was originally a few years ago a bit faster (often) but it also got the wrong aspect (fairly often). I could see that you could add extra time delay to the detection (which might be useful for automatically dealing with popups from skipping etc) but I'm sure taking time away - without changing anything else - will give a worse experience, as that is what was there before. At the moment the detection accuracy is pretty much perfect - and I can say from past experience that incorrect detections are much more annoying than a slight delay in detection.

I don't know if there is scope (pun intended!) for improvement to the algorithm used to allow faster detection in some scenarios. I understand that the Envy units have an additional bit of intelligence that tracks the recently detected aspects, to allow it to decide if the image is a recently detected aspect more quickly than any random aspect - which makes a fair bit of sense as you reduce the pool of aspects you allow a "quick" change for. They're also working with a much longer buffer though, so they may well have more frames in hand awaiting presentation (at the obvious cost of system latency). Though I wonder, if that could make aspect detect quicker in respect of presented frames, whether it might be nice to be able to leverage the video delay function in the Radiance to improve auto aspect responsiveness (assuming the delay is in the input side prior to processing but after aspect detection, you could throw away aspect changes that prove to be fleeting or incorrect before they affect the image / masks).

There is one further obstacle I think to aspect changes mid-movie being desirable - the change of zoom level in the Radiance isn't completely clean. You can see this by flicking the zoom up / down using the remote, or watching carefully if your auto aspect setup changes zoom between aspects. If you watch carefully you will see the image takes two zoom steps usually across 2 frames at 24p which gives a jumpy look to the aspect change - there is an intermediate "incorrect" scaling for approx 1 frame, and a slight stutter.

But the above are side-show items really to the original question. In reality auto-aspect shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the Nolan stuff for cinematic reasons...   .


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Sometimes it will detect very quickly, but others it will take a moment (eg if the scene is darker, rendering the aspect somewhat ambiguous).


And sometimes, not at all. The reset auto-aspect option/resetting input, doesn't seem to work in these instances for me, requiring a reboot to restore functionality.

Worse, it doesn't detect all aspect ratios, so quite a few films will never get the correct aspect ratio detected and manual mask adjustments are still required. With the V4 reporting, I am still hoping that the detected ratio reporting can be improved to report actual aspects, rather than the current subset-only reporting. Or failing that, a V5 report which adds the information! 

After 20 years of manually adjusting masks, it's almost a revelation (why didn't I do this sooner!) to control them automatically with the Pro's reporting, but then it's often frustrating when things don't go as smoothly as they should, particularly on unreported aspect ratios, and you are forced to manually intervene.

95% perfection; 5% frustation. So close!


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> But the above are side-show items really to the original question. In reality auto-aspect shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the Nolan stuff for cinematic reasons...


I disagree, although I understand, and to some degree sympathise with, your point. However, our home cinemas are all compromises in one way or another. So, accepting that, we then have to decide how best to handle those films that don't conform to our setups. In this instance, it's a little moot as the Pro cannot keep up with the crazy changes in a film like Tenet anyway, so you are forced to turn auto-aspect off, but for films with less frequent changes, it can work really well and so it's down to the individual to choose how they'd like to handle it.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> And sometimes, not at all. The reset auto-aspect option/resetting input, doesn't seem to work in these instances for me, requiring a reboot to restore functionality.
> 
> Worse, it doesn't detect all aspect ratios, so quite a few films will never get the correct aspect ratio detected and manual mask adjustments are still required. With the V4 reporting, I am still hoping that the detected ratio reporting can be improved to report actual aspects, rather than the current subset-only reporting. Or failing that, a V5 report which adds the information!
> 
> After 20 years of manually adjusting masks, it's almost a revelation (why didn't I do this sooner!) to control them automatically with the Pro's reporting, but then it's often frustrating when things don't go as smoothly as they should, particularly on unreported aspect ratios, and you are forced to manually intervene.
> 
> 95% perfection; 5% frustation. So close!


I'd be interested to know what doesn't detect for you. Are they odd in-between aspect contents? 

I don't have any non-detections or incorrect detections any more. I went from trying autoaspect quite a few years ago on the 2xxx and giving up (I can't believe anyone was using it then, as it was really ropey) to now, where I have it hooked up to electric masks and in recent time I can't remember any error (only the odd inconvenient change where a documentary has scope sections pinched out of film or for effect).

The last two things I recall that got fixed in recent memory were detection with frame-packed 3D titles (first it was broken, then it would only do 1 detection then break, and I think it works properly now when I checked the fix - but don't watch that much 3D to be sure). And there was also an issue with La-La-Land which is 2.55:1 not detecting at all - the "fix" that went in for that is that aspects > 2.4:1 are detected as 2.4:1. It would be nicer if there were more aspects. I guess if some of the titles fall into "odd" ratio territory, perhaps they could likewise be "adopted" into other ratios as a "fix"...

In all cases though the Lumagen guys have been really good at fixing things where given a good example though, so maybe the 5% could be improved for you...


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> I disagree, although I understand, and to some degree sympathise with, your point. However, our home cinemas are all compromises in one way or another. So, accepting that, we then have to decide how best to handle those films that don't conform to our setups. In this instance, it's a little moot as the Pro cannot keep up with the crazy changes in a film like Tenet anyway, so you are forced to turn auto-aspect off, but for films with less frequent changes, it can work really well and so it's down to the individual to choose how they'd like to handle it.


I agree broadly - my own room is a compromise, I don't have enough width really, so have a 16:9 top / bottom mask screen - but on this point in particular the impact of shrinking the 16:9 sections I find so extreme I just can't fathom why anyone would do it even if it worked. 

Though I should really bite my tongue, as if the auto aspect / aspect ratio switching were improved to the point where you could choose to do it if you so wished and it gave a workable (if tragically flawed  ) presentation, then it would represent an overall improvement for all auto aspect users.


----------



## MDesigns

bobof said:


> It would be nicer if there were more aspects. I guess if some of the titles fall into "odd" ratio territory, perhaps they could likewise be "adopted" into other ratios as a "fix"...


Is it really necessary to have any "pre-programmed" aspect ratios at all. They could just calculate the true aspect and report/act according to that without any limits. Users could setup preference how to act with different aspects in "ranges" of aspects instead of hard coded values.


----------



## bobof

MDesigns said:


> Is it really necessary to have any "pre-programmed" aspect ratios at all. They could just calculate the true aspect and report/act according to that without any limits. Users could setup preference how to act with different aspects in "ranges" of aspects instead of hard coded values.


I think they are in some ways ingrained in the way the Lumagen works at the moment.

I kind of agree, though I do think that if the AR is constantly variable you will get some exciting effects with Auto Aspect though. Even the difference between 2.35 and 2.4 doesn't seem brilliantly defined - I think often because of video noise around the edges of encoded black bars, or the exact vertical positioning of the aspect window - so I tend to merge 2.35 and 2.4 into one AR which avoids the odd issue I've seen with the detected AR ping-ponging between those two within the same movie. I recall Stacey Spears telling me in a discussion about aspect ratios that there are a few different versions of either 2.35:1 or 2.4:1 on disc (can't remember which) depending on whether you shift the active video area to make the best use of the encoding macroblocks (if you don't apply the shift, you have two not very full macroblocks at the top and bottom edge of the video).


----------



## MDesigns

bobof said:


> I think they are in some ways ingrained in the way the Lumagen works at the moment.
> 
> I kind of agree, though I do think that if the AR is constantly variable you will get some exciting effects with Auto Aspect though. Even the difference between 2.35 and 2.4 doesn't seem brilliantly defined - I think often because of video noise around the edges of encoded black bars, or the exact vertical positioning of the aspect window - so I tend to merge 2.35 and 2.4 into one AR which avoids the odd issue I've seen with the detected AR ping-ponging between those two within the same movie. I recall Stacey Spears telling me in a discussion about aspect ratios that there are a few different versions of either 2.35:1 or 2.4:1 on disc (can't remember which) depending on whether you shift the active video area to make the best use of the encoding macroblocks (if you don't apply the shift, you have two not very full macroblocks at the top and bottom edge of the video).


Yes, I agree it could cause havoc, but probably not when done properly. Small changes in aspect should be ignored(threshold selectable) and just stay with the first detected until you get a big enough change.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> I'd be interested to know what doesn't detect for you. Are they odd in-between aspect contents?


The obvious common one is 1.66, but there are also a few Ben Hur super wide types > 2.4, eg 2.57 

After discussions with Jim, I understand why there are the current restrictions in reporting, but remain hopeful that he and Pat can find a way to extend reporting.



> I don't have any non-detections or incorrect detections any more.


Had one during my film this past Friday. Wouldn't detect aspect, wouldn't reset with RS232 functions; couldn't fix by flipping inputs to force resets. Had to reboot, and then it worked.



> And there was also an issue with La-La-Land which is 2.55:1 not detecting at all - the "fix" that went in for that is that aspects > 2.4:1 are detected as 2.4:1. It would be nicer if there were more aspects.


Or just report the actual aspect ratio.



> I guess if some of the titles fall into "odd" ratio territory, perhaps they could likewise be "adopted" into other ratios as a "fix"...


Band-aid. Just report the actual aspect ratio... The masking systems can then "bucket" them, if needed. I set mine up to work with any reported aspect ratio so that it could be fully automatic.



> In all cases though the Lumagen guys have been really good at fixing things where given a good example though, so maybe the 5% could be improved for you...


Request is in. Keeping one eye on firmware updates and fingers crossed.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> The obvious common one is 1.66, but there are also a few Ben Hur super wide types > 2.4, eg 2.57


I didn't know there was much content in 1.66:1, I can see that would be annoying.


Mark_H said:


> Or just report the actual aspect ratio.


In my case by "happy coincidence" my "cheap" Screen Research doesn't close any further than 2.4 (boo), though it would still be nice to be able to detect the correct ratio, I agree.


Mark_H said:


> Band-aid. Just report the actual aspect ratio... The masking systems can then "bucket" them, if needed. I set mine up to work with any reported aspect ratio so that it could be fully automatic.


I agree it would be preferable, though I'm a realist as to the amount of upheaval elsewhere. It would work fine for me as I don't do anything to the video with my top / bottom mask screen (I only move the masks) though of course for many the Radiance itself has to do some video scaling so it either needs to bin them still or apply hysteresis to the detection and not detect new ratio unless changed by +/- x%, or some such. 


Mark_H said:


> Had one during my film this past Friday. Wouldn't detect aspect, wouldn't reset with RS232 functions; couldn't fix by flipping inputs to force resets. Had to reboot, and then it worked.


Interesting, did you lose all serial reports, or just auto aspect reports? Hope you / Lumagen can catch that one in action.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Count me as another that would like to see more development on the auto AR feature, if only to give users more control.

Last night I was watching The Ice Road and the AR kept changing during the opening credits - not just back and forth but it seemed to want to explore multiple aspect ratios. It forces me to try and lock it in but there doesn't seem to be a command that says "this one! keep it here" so you hit the up and down arrows to cycle through ARs ... but it doesn't start with the one you're on (so you can't hit up arrow down arrow and be done).


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> Count me as another that would like to see more development on the auto AR feature, if only to give users more control.
> 
> Last night I was watching The Ice Road and the AR kept changing during the opening credits - not just back and forth but it seemed to want to explore multiple aspect ratios. It forces me to try and lock it in but there doesn't seem to be a command that says "this one! keep it here" so you hit the up and down arrows to cycle through ARs ... but it doesn't start with the one you're on (so you can't hit up arrow down arrow and be done).


That's interesting. I'm sure I watched it the other night and I thought it worked fine. AppleTV4k Amazon in HDR. I'll have to give it another look later. 

There is a command that does exactly what you ask, but it doesn't have a button on the old remote. The new remote does I believe.
With the old remote: 
*Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it.*


----------



## Ian_Currie

bobof said:


> There is a command that does exactly what you ask, but it doesn't have a button on the old remote. The new remote does I believe.
> With the old remote:
> *Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it.*


Thank you!


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Interesting, did you lose all serial reports, or just auto aspect reports? Hope you / Lumagen can catch that one in action.


That's a good question. I don't monitor my RS232 unless I'm debugging, so at this stage I don't know, however, the Pro didn't auto-scale the image either so it's more likely an issue with auto-aspect than RS232.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> That's a good question. I don't monitor my RS232 unless I'm debugging, so at this stage I don't know, however, the Pro didn't auto-scale the image either so it's more likely an issue with auto-aspect than RS232.


That makes sense.


----------



## jrp

J.P said:


> With the latest updates. Lumagen paired with DCR-lens, is the auto aspect shift in Nolan-movies instant or is it still noticeable ?


As always, we recommend against using the Radiance Pro auto-aspect for intra-movie aspect changes. It is _not_ intended for this. There is an about two second hysteresis time to confirm the aspect has really changed. This seems fine at the beginning of a movie, but not intended for the changes within the movie.

If you have a 2.35 or 2.40 screen you really do not want the changes. This horrible idea is really for 16:9 screens so the 16:9 sections are larger than the 2.35/2.40 portions, and fills the entire 16:9 screen. If you did go to 16:9 on a 2.4 screen for the 16:9 portions the image would get smaller.

I have talked to Patrick about reducing the decision time, but he says in his testing reducing the time would likely lead to false detections. So we do not plan to reduce this decision time, and so will keep Auto aspect as a start-of-content, end-of-content feature.

So if you are using image based auto-aspect, we recommend enabling "sticky override" and then pressing the "disable auto-aspect" button if you have a new remote, or for the older remote, manually selecting the wide-screen aspect ratio once the movie starts, and watching the entire movie as a single aspect ratio.


----------



## jrp

If you notice an issue with the detection of the aspect ratio, you can report it to us at the lumagen.com support email.

We need the source device (e.g. Bluray player, AppleTV, Roku, etc.), and the content information (title and time-stamp), and if appropriate the provider (e.g. Netflix, etc.), plus a description of the issue. 

In the past we have seen issues in source devices which did not send correct black level, or content, again with a raised or noisy black, causing issues. This is because the Radiance Pro depends on the "black bars" actually being close to black. Analog recordings, such as VCR, are problematic since the noise in the image appears to the Radiance Pro as active video.


----------



## J.P

jrp said:


> As always, we recommend against using the Radiance Pro auto-aspect for intra-movie aspect changes. It is _not_ intended for this. There is an about two second hysteresis time to confirm the aspect has really changed. This seems fine at the beginning of a movie, but not intended for the changes within the movie.
> 
> If you have a 2.35 or 2.40 screen you really do not want the changes. This horrible idea is really for 16:9 screens so the 16:9 sections are larger than the 2.35/2.40 portions, and fills the entire 16:9 screen. If you did go to 16:9 on a 2.4 screen for the 16:9 portions the image would get smaller.
> 
> I have talked to Patrick about reducing the decision time, but he says in his testing reducing the time would likely lead to false detections. So we do not plan to reduce this decision time, and so will keep Auto aspect as a start-of-content, end-of-content feature.
> 
> So if you are using image based auto-aspect, we recommend enabling "sticky override" and then pressing the "disable auto-aspect" button if you have a new remote, or for the older remote, manually selecting the wide-screen aspect ratio once the movie starts, and watching the entire movie as a single aspect ratio.


I appreciate your answer!


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> Count me as another that would like to see more development on the auto AR feature, if only to give users more control.
> 
> Last night I was watching The Ice Road and the AR kept changing during the opening credits - not just back and forth but it seemed to want to explore multiple aspect ratios. It forces me to try and lock it in but there doesn't seem to be a command that says "this one! keep it here" so you hit the up and down arrows to cycle through ARs ... but it doesn't start with the one you're on (so you can't hit up arrow down arrow and be done).


I did just check this and it does as you say; it detects the studio titles at 2.35, then goes to some black screen with white text vertically centred. Over a period of that text being on screen it transitions to 2.0 and then 1.78 for no obvious reason, finally switching back to 2.35 once the text clears to a scene. 

I remember now I found that movie a little odd in its presentation too, they seemed to have really clipped the blacks badly, with very little shadow detail.

Anyway, the AR glitch is definitely worth pinging to Lumagen via the support email.


----------



## bobof

Mark Burton said:


> I, along with @steelman1991 and @garyolearysteele have tried every thing you have recommended here, including tributaries cables. It hasn’t stopped any of us still getting audio drop outs.
> 
> Monoprice cables didn’t work for me, and after testing a load, audioquest so far are definitely the most reliable, my problems haven’t disappeared, but they’re not too bad.
> 
> If I bypass the lumagen for audio, I NEVER get audio dropouts.
> 
> My problems started when I got my trinnov tbh, although as mentioned above, when I bypass the lumagen, I have no issues.


Menu 0718 suggested by Jim seemed to make a notable difference on the 5348 I have here, audio only output 1 hooked up to the Monoprice HTP1 (HDMI boards from the same people who do the Trinnov ones). I don't think I've had a dropout since with Atmos from the AppleTV via Dolby MAT2.0. Using 3m Monoprice HDMI cables.


----------



## Mark Burton

bobof said:


> Menu 0718 suggested by Jim seemed to make a notable difference on the 5348 I have here, audio only output 1 hooked up to the Monoprice HTP1 (HDMI boards from the same people who do the Trinnov ones). I don't think I've had a dropout since with Atmos from the AppleTV via Dolby MAT2.0. Using 3m Monoprice HDMI cables.


Done that already. Has definitely helped, but not solved it - I have never had drops from appletv though.


----------



## bobof

Mark Burton said:


> Done that already. Has definitely helped, but not solved it - I have never had drops from appletv though.


I've not watched much else for a while, been so few disc releases in recent time. I'll make a conscious effort to try a few discs out.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> If you have a 2.35 or 2.40 screen you really do not want the changes.


Putting aside the personal choice argument over intra-movie aspect changes there's one instance where you might recognise this ability during a movie _is_ desirable: you are watching a 2.35:1 movie and need to pull up the player's menu. This menu is typically in 1.78:1 format and lots of options get cropped top and bottom unless there's an auto-aspect detection and switch. Going sticky would break that.

As it stands, auto-aspect intra-movie, and indeed the menu example above, works very well indeed. The delay is bearable for the benefits it brings. It's really just the edge cases where detection fails that could be improved and of course reporting more (all) aspect ratios for those using auto-mask setups.

Almost there...


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark Burton said:


> Done that already. Has definitely helped, but not solved it - I have never had drops from appletv though.


Which (at least IMHO) would mean the culprit is unlikely to be the Lumagen. If the Lumagen is the reason for your drops, it would likely be consistent across all input sources.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Which (at least IMHO) would mean the culprit is unlikely to be the Lumagen. If the Lumagen is the reason for your drops, it would likely be consistent across all input sources.


Not sure I agree. 

When using the lumagen for audio, I have drops on my Oppo and Sony players, only when playing immersive soundtracks. I never have drops on my Apple TV. 

When I bypass the lumagen for audio, I never get a single drop on any of my devices. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> Which (at least IMHO) would mean the culprit is unlikely to be the Lumagen. If the Lumagen is the reason for your drops, it would likely be consistent across all input sources.


I don’t watch much appletv to be honest so difficult to say if it’s free if issues or not.


----------



## jrp

Not so random comments of the day:

Patrick is close to a fix for wrong auto-aspect response in _The Ice Road_ which should be in a release in the next day or so (fingers crossed since we are testing a new FPGA with this release).

===== 

There are some incremental deinterlacing improvements in this coming release.

===== 

This upcoming release also adds an interlaced content auto-flip-field detect/correction for the Strato, and other sources that get the interlaced content field order wrong.

It works well, but since it is image based, better to use the flip-field = On setting for the Strato, and other devices known to send the wrong field order. This will always flip the fields for interlace content those sources and avoid the initial detection time. Especially for dark content it can take a while to detect the wrong field order. I have found that for scenes with typical brightness the detection and correction is instantaneous. So the Auto mode seems best as the default.

This auto flip-field correction will be on by default after a factory reset (and Save) for the next release and going forward. Your current setting (On or Off) will not be changed when you load the next release or later release.


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Putting aside the personal choice argument over intra-movie aspect changes there's one instance where you might recognize this ability during a movie _is_ desirable: you are watching a 2.35:1 movie and need to pull up the player's menu. This menu is typically in 1.78:1 format and lots of options get cropped top and bottom unless there's an auto-aspect detection and switch. Going sticky would break that.


One option to be able to continue to use Sticky Override is to add a macro for when you bring up the OSD. The macro would be the OSD command followed by the "enable auto-aspect" command. This way you can use sticky over-ride, but see the 16:9 OSD.

Going back into the movie you would once again disable auto-aspect once the movie's correct aspect is active, if desired.


----------



## Ian_Currie

jrp said:


> One option to be able to continue to use Sticky Override is to add a macro for when you bring up the OSD. The macro would be the OSD command followed by the "enable auto-aspect" command. This way you can use sticky over-ride, but see the 16:9 OSD.
> 
> Going back into the movie you would once again disable auto-aspect once the movie's correct aspect is active, if desired.


Can you elaborate on how one would do this?


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> Can you elaborate on how one would do this?


You would enable auto-aspect with sticky-override, and do a Save.

Then if you have a control system that allows you to program a multi-button macro you program one button on the programmable remote to send whichever command you need to bring up the player OSD from within the movie. Then you add the second IR (or RS232) command that tells the Radiance Pro to enable auto aspect (this is a one button command on the new remote, or a two-button command on the old remote). So if you have the older Lumagen remote this is actually three IR code macro.

I hope this helps.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

jrp said:


> Not so random comments of the day:
> 
> Patrick is close to a fix for wrong auto-aspect response in _The Ice Road_ which should be in a release in the next day or so (fingers crossed since we are testing a new FPGA with this release).
> .


new FPGA? Do tell ;-)


----------



## Clark Burk

I'm guessing just new programming for the current FPGA. Maybe Jim could tell us how much of the capacity of the current FPGA is being utilized and if a new more powerful processor will be needed for some of the future planned improvements?


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> I'm guessing just new programming for the current FPGA. Maybe Jim could tell us how much of the capacity of the current FPGA is being utilized and if a new more powerful processor will be needed for some of the future planned improvements?


It has already been stated that all future development that has been discussed and in the works is well within the capabilities of the current FPGA.


----------



## Clark Burk

Thanks Kris, good to hear.


----------



## DenverMDM

jrp said:


> Not so random comments of the day:
> 
> Patrick is close to a fix for wrong auto-aspect response in _The Ice Road_ which should be in a release in the next day or so (fingers crossed since we are testing a new FPGA with this release).
> 
> =====
> 
> There are some incremental deinterlacing improvements in this coming release.
> 
> =====
> 
> This upcoming release also adds an interlaced content auto-flip-field detect/correction for the Strato, and other sources that get the interlaced content field order wrong.
> 
> It works well, but since it is image based, better to use the flip-field = On setting for the Strato, and other devices known to send the wrong field order. This will always flip the fields for interlace content those sources and avoid the initial detection time. Especially for dark content it can take a while to detect the wrong field order. I have found that for scenes with typical brightness the detection and correction is instantaneous. So the Auto mode seems best as the default.
> 
> This auto flip-field correction will be on by default after a factory reset (and Save) for the next release and going forward. Your current setting (On or Off) will not be changed when you load the next release or later release.


Jim, I’m not home to check but I did notice on a Netflix show that was 1.90 aspect, the Lumagen defaulted output to 1.78. I went into the output per aspect ratio setup and there isn’t an aspect configuration for 1.90. Will this be also added or am I missing or doing something wrong to not output 1.90? I think I ended up using the sticky aspect ratio to 2.0 if I remember correctly.


----------



## asharma

I have to say I’ve been very pleased with the Tonemapping on my Lumagen…I recently upgraded from a JVC NX-7 to a JVC RS3000 and added a Lumagen at the same time…

Unfortunately I am unable to determine how much of the improvement is attributable to the RS3000 upgrade and how much is attributable to the Lumagen…I will say however, the Lumagen has been set and forget and nothing is ever too dark…Specular highlights are now in abundance that I would have never really noticed before…Rain shines when pelting in a dark scene…Skin tones are spot on…Explosions look nice and fiery orange with the overall picture looking far more natural…I will attribute all of these benefits to the Lumagen…I don’t think I could go without one now…It just takes things to the next level…👍🏽


----------



## thebland

jrp said:


> This auto flip-field correction will be on by default after a *factory reset* (and Save) for the next release and going forward. Your current setting (On or Off) will not be changed when you load the next release or later release.


To be clear, a ‘*factory rese*t‘ is simply a power cycle… correct?

No need to fully reset / restore the unit and then reload the firmware to reset the default for the ‘auto flip’?
Looks like a good update and I look forward to implementing it. Thanks


----------



## SJHT

thebland said:


> To be clear, a ‘*factory rese*t‘ is simply a power cycle… correct?
> 
> No need to fully reset / restore the unit and then reload the firmware to reset the default for the ‘auto flip’?
> Looks like a good update and I look forward to implementing it. Thanks


Not a power cycle. Make sure you have a copy of your configuration. Select factory reset from the menu. When all is done, you then load your configuration back in. But won’t that just the set the auto flip back to what your config had? I’m just going to manually change it and not bother with the factory reset. I never do those unless I’m having issues. SJ


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

I doubt this is possible. But now with Kaleidescape and several 4k players having separate audio and video HDMI outputs, wouldn't it be great if the 5348 allowed for separate HDMI audio and video inputs and outputs for one source at the same time? Couldn't this perhaps offer even better audio performance? I guess if one wants this one has to buy 2 5348s! WOOPS!


----------



## garyolearysteele

Hi,

I’m experimenting with HDR settings for gaming to see if there is a better way to handle HDR content than using DTM for games. Whilst it works to a point, there are issues using DTM in TV’s as well as with RP and any other, I suspect due to many factors (4k60, no screen cuts, lots of bright elements, on screen overlays etc etc).

The latest TV models are beginning to adopt HGIG guidelines which make sense for TV’s, as I understand it the HGIG option disables DTM and instead uses a curve which is aligned to the capabilities of the display. The output from the game is then matched to the display rather than using a wider range that would need to be tone mapped down. I'm not sure if there is any additional metadata sent, from some limited reading i think the parameters are set by the user using in game calibration screens.

This video explains it and shows examples using a LG TV 




I wonder we can emulate something close to this with the Lumagen? The first obstacle that springs to mind is projector peak brightness is so low compared to a TV that it might not scale down that far.

In TV land i understand it to be; 

DTM Off == A static tone map that assumes content can be as bright as 4000nits
EGIG == Use only the displays capabilities, once configured the image shouldnt be higher than the configured values.

Anyone got any thoughts on a good configuration as a starting point?

I’ve changed some config options on a memory dedicated to this such as disabling DTM. Now in this scenario I’m wondering where the MaxCLL default and Max light should be set. Currently using SDR from the console is fine, but there does seem to be more and more cases where the content creator is expecting the user to have a HDR TV and the SDR options have had issues.

Thanks


----------



## PeterLarsson

I have some issues turning on Apple TV 4k. I use the same strategy as @jrp have recommended and it works flawless with every source like Fiber TV and uhd player.
Steps
1. Projector Sony VW-790 on
2. 10 sec delay 
3. Lumagen on
4. 5 sec delay
5. Processor on, ATV on, Lumagen input 1, processor and Projector stay on same input
6. Delay 25 sec
7. Lumagen mem B for 1080P and laser on 35 for SDR. 

9 out 10 times there is no picture. Lost synch between Projector and Lumagen. I need to either change Lumagen to 2 and then back to 1 again or change from HDMI 1 to 2 and back to 1 again on Projector to Sync and get picture.

i have never ever faced this previosuly with any source since more than 7 months with Lumagen. Started like a month ago and only with ATV 4k.
Any idea on how to get proper Sync and picture without this hasle?


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I have some issues turning on Apple TV 4k. I use the same strategy as @jrp have recommended and it works flawless with every source like Fiber TV and uhd player.
> Steps
> 1. Projector Sony VW-790 on
> 2. 10 sec delay
> 3. Lumagen on
> 4. 5 sec delay
> 5. Processor on, ATV on, Lumagen input 1, processor and Projector stay on same input
> 6. Delay 25 sec
> 7. Lumagen mem B for 1080P and laser on 35 for SDR.
> 
> 9 out 10 times there is no picture. Lost synch between Projector and Lumagen. I need to either change Lumagen to 2 and then back to 1 again or change from HDMI 1 to 2 and back to 1 again on Projector to Sync and get picture.
> 
> i have never ever faced this previosuly with any source since more than 7 months with Lumagen. Started like a month ago and only with ATV 4k.
> Any idea on how to get proper Sync and picture without this hasle?


Do you use a harmony or other control system? If so you could poke the AppleTV in the eye (also known as reboot it) when you start the AppleTV activity. The Harmony AppleTV IR code set has the reboot code in it.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Yes - harmony.

so you basically mean i should start and reboot? I am not sure i follow why it is needed - since i start the Activity with the ATV off. Can you explain?


----------



## sjschaff

PeterLarsson said:


> I have some issues turning on Apple TV 4k. I use the same strategy as @jrp have recommended and it works flawless with every source like Fiber TV and uhd player.
> Steps
> 1. Projector Sony VW-790 on
> 2. 10 sec delay
> 3. Lumagen on
> 4. 5 sec delay
> 5. Processor on, ATV on, Lumagen input 1, processor and Projector stay on same input
> 6. Delay 25 sec
> 7. Lumagen mem B for 1080P and laser on 35 for SDR.
> 
> 9 out 10 times there is no picture. Lost synch between Projector and Lumagen. I need to either change Lumagen to 2 and then back to 1 again or change from HDMI 1 to 2 and back to 1 again on Projector to Sync and get picture.
> 
> i have never ever faced this previosuly with any source since more than 7 months with Lumagen. Started like a month ago and only with ATV 4k.
> Any idea on how to get proper Sync and picture without this hasle?


Similarly, I use the Harmony Elite, and have seen this, at least with the new 5348. It's a bit frustrating in that it is inconsistent. And the only way to get things working is to put the Lumagen into standby, after my JVC RS3000 and Trinnov Altitude are already running, and turn on the Lumagen. It clearly seems that the Lumagen, which has all of the inputs going into it, and both the video and audio outputs going their separate ways, is either failing to communicate or receive communications from the JVC and Trinnov about their "state". Almost seems like things are not always "reset" to some proper initial state.

I too have tried all sorts of delays as well as working with the Logitech 2nd level support people to have them even set a delayed power on for the Lumagen (since this is something a user has no direct control over), as well as issuing at the end of sequence additional commands to the Lumagen, like Clear and 1 (for input 1). Also, played with some other Harmony bits like Power Settings. 

I have yet to actually play around with simply using my existing remotes to manually test my activity of turning on all my devices. But that would really prove little, since it's possible the Harmony (and the information they use at Logitech for the Lumagen) is the true culprit.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Yes - harmony.
> 
> so you basically mean i should start and reboot? I am not sure i follow why it is needed - since i start the Activity with the ATV off. Can you explain?


The AppleTV isn't off. You can tell this because if you reboot it, it takes quite a bit longer to come back around. 
It is just in a state that allows it to go into a low power standby mode.
The other thing you could try is to disable the standby (it is on a timer). 

Why any of these things may help - well, why do any of the HDMI dead chicken dance fixes work...  It seems to benefit some setups that don't play well. I've done it in the past and it has made a difference. These two things may not benefit you but they may make your system more functional.


----------



## KarlKlammer

PeterLarsson said:


> I have some issues turning on Apple TV 4k. I use the same strategy as @jrp have recommended and it works flawless with every source like Fiber TV and uhd player.
> Steps
> 1. Projector Sony VW-790 on
> 2. 10 sec delay
> 3. Lumagen on
> 4. 5 sec delay
> 5. Processor on, ATV on, Lumagen input 1, processor and Projector stay on same input
> 6. Delay 25 sec
> 7. Lumagen mem B for 1080P and laser on 35 for SDR.
> 
> 9 out 10 times there is no picture. Lost synch between Projector and Lumagen. I need to either change Lumagen to 2 and then back to 1 again or change from HDMI 1 to 2 and back to 1 again on Projector to Sync and get picture.
> 
> i have never ever faced this previosuly with any source since more than 7 months with Lumagen. Started like a month ago and only with ATV 4k.
> Any idea on how to get proper Sync and picture without this hasle?


It took me months to find the cause for the lost signal. The issue went away when I deleted switching to another Memory from the sequence.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> It took me months to find the cause for the lost signal. The issue went away when I deleted switching to another Memory from the sequence.


If that was reproducible it sounds like something to try and get the Lumagen guys to look at, as memory switching you would hope should be just like a source switch etc if it needs to re-sync HDMI.


----------



## Mark Burton

@Kris Deering unfortunately another audio drop last night (around 3 seconds) whilst watching Godzilla vs Kong. Atmos track.

@Gordon Fraser has kindly said he’d send me some tributaries cables to try so we’ll see if that helps.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> If that was reproducible it sounds like something to try and get the Lumagen guys to look at, as memory switching you would hope should be just like a source switch etc if it needs to re-sync HDMI.


Prior to deleting mem switching, I did the same sequence with the original remotes numerous times and never lost the signal. 
At some point I did not need the switching any more, and did not follow the issue further.


----------



## bobof

Mark Burton said:


> @Kris Deering unfortunately another audio drop last night (around 3 seconds) whilst watching Godzilla vs Kong. Atmos track.
> 
> @Gordon Fraser has kindly said he’d send me some tributaries cables to try so we’ll see if that helps.


What's the player in this case?


----------



## Mark Burton

bobof said:


> What's the player in this case?


Zappiti Pro


----------



## aguy

Mark Burton said:


> Zappiti Pro


Using kodi on the zappiti? If so it will be a known bug in Kodi plying some high bitrate atmos tracks 

Kodi know about it. It has gotten better lately but still not eliminated 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ian_Currie

aguy said:


> Using kodi on the zappiti? If so it will be a known bug in Kodi plying some high bitrate atmos tracks
> 
> Kodi know about it. It has gotten better lately but still not eliminated
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Doesn't Zappiti use an Android OS? Does it really use Kodi?


----------



## aguy

Ian_Currie said:


> Doesn't Zappiti use an Android OS? Does it really use Kodi?


I don’t have a zappiti which is why I was asking. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kurvenal

PeterLarsson said:


> I have some issues turning on Apple TV 4k. I use the same strategy as @jrp have recommended and it works flawless with every source like Fiber TV and uhd player.
> Steps
> 1. Projector Sony VW-790 on
> 2. 10 sec delay
> 3. Lumagen on
> 4. 5 sec delay
> 5. Processor on, ATV on, Lumagen input 1, processor and Projector stay on same input
> 6. Delay 25 sec
> 7. Lumagen mem B for 1080P and laser on 35 for SDR.
> 
> 9 out 10 times there is no picture. Lost synch between Projector and Lumagen. I need to either change Lumagen to 2 and then back to 1 again or change from HDMI 1 to 2 and back to 1 again on Projector to Sync and get picture.
> 
> i have never ever faced this previosuly with any source since more than 7 months with Lumagen. Started like a month ago and only with ATV 4k.
> Any idea on how to get proper Sync and picture without this hasle?


I also have similar issues at system power on when selecting the ATV input on my Radiance Pro. I get a blank screen, and no response when I hit the Info button on the Lumagen remote. As other posters have hinted at (and as Lumagen has confirmed), it seems like the Radiance Pro has trouble when the ATV is in "zombie" state. My way to get around this is by selecting Kaleidescape as the source when starting up my system. If I switch to the ATV input once I can see the Kaleidescape OSD then 90+% of the time the ATV screensaver comes up and I am good to go from there.


----------



## Mark Burton

aguy said:


> Using kodi on the zappiti? If so it will be a known bug in Kodi plying some high bitrate atmos tracks
> 
> Kodi know about it. It has gotten better lately but still not eliminated
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Ian_Currie said:


> Doesn't Zappiti use an Android OS? Does it really use Kodi?


It uses an android OS, kodi isn’t used at all.

If I use the audio output direct into my trinnov I get no dropouts. Would be great if i could use the audio direct into one of my lumagen inputs and video into another and combine inputs, this would give me the absolute cleanest signal for both video and audio.


----------



## bjorg

I've been running into an annoying issue where low light scene are pulsating. Not sure where the issue is originating. It's definitively happening on AppleTV when watching Netflx. I haven't yet spent enough time to determine if it's only AppleTV or other sources as well. Before I spend hours attempting to narrow this down, I figured I'd ask here if anyone has run into a similar situation before.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Kurvenal said:


> I also have similar issues at system power on when selecting the ATV input on my Radiance Pro. I get a blank screen, and no response when I hit the Info button on the Lumagen remote. As other posters have hinted at (and as Lumagen has confirmed), it seems like the Radiance Pro has trouble when the ATV is in "zombie" state. My way to get around this is by selecting Kaleidescape as the source when starting up my system. If I switch to the ATV input once I can see the Kaleidescape OSD then 90+% of the time the ATV screensaver comes up and I am good to go from there.


Great input - thanks!

What I did now was to do like this:
1. Projector on
2. 10 sec delay
3. Lumagen on
4. Processsor and ATV on and Lumagen on input 1
5 10 sec delay
6. ATV reboot
7..25 sec delay
8. Lumagen Mem b and projector at memory REF


Tested this and it seemed to help with the extra reboot of ATV.

Problem never occur when going from one activity to ATV, only when starting from scratch with everything off. I Always put ATV at rest after 15 min, so one other possibility would to have ATV constantly on as well. 

Hope this sorted it out and thanks for the help, I will try a couple of time during the day otherwise also might try yours.


----------



## garyolearysteele

bjorg said:


> I've been running into an annoying issue where low light scene are pulsating. Not sure where the issue is originating. It's definitively happening on AppleTV when watching Netflx. I haven't yet spent enough time to determine if it's only AppleTV or other sources as well. Before I spend hours attempting to narrow this down, I figured I'd ask here if anyone has run into a similar situation before.


I saw something similar, some dark scenes on The Underground Railroad on Amazon. Almost looked like shadow detail was being highlighted then not, pulsating over and over. I put it down to a minor DTM issue, after all it’s not possible to be perfect with a dynamic system. It’s been rare for me but I can try find the scene. Haven’t looked since the latest firmware update, worth making sure you have that.

update: I can’t see this now with the latest update so worth trying if you don’t have that.


----------



## 187crew003

bjorg said:


> I've been running into an annoying issue where low light scene are pulsating. Not sure where the issue is originating. It's definitively happening on AppleTV when watching Netflx. I haven't yet spent enough time to determine if it's only AppleTV or other sources as well. Before I spend hours attempting to narrow this down, I figured I'd ask here if anyone has run into a similar situation before.


Yes I have the same thing. I thought it was just older movies (since I have t noticed it on newer films ) but it’s definitely there


----------



## Erod

I'm getting occasional audio dropouts (about twice per movie) on blue ray discs. All of my components use the exact same 6-foot Monoprice high speed cables.

Should I route everything to my processor instead and run video only to the Lumagen?


----------



## Kris Deering

Netflix has some issues with their HDR for sure. I've seen some wild variations in a lot of their content, even when watching on my OLED with no Radiance. A great example is the Kevin Hart comedy special "no &$*#'s given". It will start at one brightness and then just slowly ramp down and down and down, almost until it is too dark to see and then jump instantly to a really bright image again. This happens on my OLED in DV as well. I've seen it on a few others too, though I haven't watch a lot of Netflix content in my theater lately.


----------



## Craig Peer

Erod said:


> I'm getting occasional audio dropouts (about twice per movie) on blue ray discs. All of my components use the exact same 6-foot Monoprice high speed cables.
> 
> Should I route everything to my processor instead and run video only to the Lumagen?


That's what I did. No audio drop outs since doing that.


----------



## Erod

Craig Peer said:


> That's what I did. No audio drop outs since doing that.


OK, will I need to change anything in the Lumagen, or just re-route the cables?


----------



## Craig Peer

Erod said:


> OK, will I need to change anything in the Lumagen, or just re-route the cables?


I don't recall doing anything other than re-routing cables, but it's been a while.


----------



## bferbrache

Erod said:


> I'm getting occasional audio dropouts (about twice per movie) on blue ray discs. All of my components use the exact same 6-foot Monoprice high speed cables.
> 
> Should I route everything to my processor instead and run video only to the Lumagen?


Does your Panasonic bluray player not have 2 hdmi outputs? If it does why not use one to the Lumagen for video and the other to the receiver for audio? Not sure if that’s what you meant but it saves changing everything around


----------



## Erod

bferbrache said:


> Does your Panasonic bluray player not have 2 hdmi outputs? If it does why not use one to the Lumagen for video and the other to the receiver for audio? Not sure if that’s what you meant but it saves changing everything around


One is video/audio and the other is just audio. I'll try that, thanks.

Will the Lumagen still try to send audio to the processor simultaneously with the Panasonic?


----------



## fatherom

Erod said:


> One is video/audio and the other is just audio. I'll try that, thanks.
> 
> Will the Lumagen still try to send audio to the processor simultaneously with the Panasonic?


Well yeah, but think about it...your AVR/processor will have a specific hdmi input selected (the one coming from the "just audio" hdmi port on your player). It doesn't matter what's being sent to the other AVR inputs.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Erod said:


> I'm getting occasional audio dropouts (about twice per movie) on blue ray discs. All of my components use the exact same 6-foot Monoprice high speed cables.
> 
> Should I route everything to my processor instead and run video only to the Lumagen?


I’ve done this with my Denon and no issues so far, speaking to lots of folk on here it seems this is the only fix unless Lumagen accept there’s a problem and address it properly, if that’s possible without a hardware change.


----------



## Craig Peer

bferbrache said:


> Does your Panasonic bluray player not have 2 hdmi outputs? If it does why not use one to the Lumagen for video and the other to the receiver for audio? Not sure if that’s what you meant but it saves changing everything around


And the Oppo has two HDMI out, and my new Zappiti has 2 HDMI out also.


----------



## Erod

fatherom said:


> Well yeah, but think about it...your AVR/processor will have a specific hdmi input selected (the one coming from the "just audio" hdmi port on your player). It doesn't matter what's being sent to the other AVR inputs.


Duh. Please ignore me. Typing before I'm thinking again. LOL


----------



## bjorg

Craig Peer said:


> And the Oppo has two HDMI out, and my new Zappiti has 2 HDMI out also.


Ditto for the Kaliedescape players. I guess I could use a HDfury to split the signal on the AppleTV. Any recommended alternatives to HDfury?


----------



## Roland Janus

which of those values (example) is actually used by the Pro?

Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1391 cd/m2


----------



## aguy

Question regarding aspect ratios and rs232. 

If I issue ZY1 ( or ZY45) does that disable auto aspect aspect ratio changes ? ( ie does the aspect ratio specified in zy1 or zy45 act as sticky) ? 

And if so am I right that the sticky setting is reversed by ZY550? 

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> Question regarding aspect ratios and rs232.
> 
> If I issue ZY1 ( or ZY45) does that disable auto aspect aspect ratio changes ? ( ie does the aspect ratio specified in zy1 or zy45 act as sticky) ?
> 
> And if so am I right that the sticky setting is reversed by ZY550?


Auto-aspect only affects the input-aspect selection. The ZY1 and ZY45 do not have any effect on the selected input aspect, or if "Sticky input aspect" is active or not. They only affect the output side aspect ratio used for whichever input-aspect is currently active.

==== 

ZY550, should force Auto-aspect to start over, re-detect, and select, the source aspect ratio, even if Sticky-override is currently active. As this implies Sticky-override would be disabled by ZY550 after this. I have not personally tested ZY550. So, some testing of this is in order to confirm I am correct.

==== 

It would be great if you could do a virtual Lumagen remote page in your Crestron module. This is something we paid for for the one on our website, but the programmer never delivered.

Also, I think even though only certain source aspects are currently detected, it would be good that the module reports the source aspect in one-hundredths supporting 1.00 up to 9.99. Note that 1.00 up to 2.99 should cover all but a couple of titles if you prefer. That way should we add more aspects the module would not need to be updated for the new aspect(s). The Crestron programmer could then "bucketize" them as desired.


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> which of those values (example) is actually used by the Pro?
> 
> Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
> Maximum Content Light Level : 4000 cd/m2
> Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1391 cd/m2


The only value that is used is the MaxCLL to put a top limit on the DTM scene transfer function maximum.

We are one point used the Minimum, but it turned out to be of no value.

The Pro calculates values for these on a frame-by-frame basis. It also keeps a history for these for use in scene detection.


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> Auto-aspect only affects the input-aspect selection. The ZY1 and ZY45 do not have any effect on the selected input aspect, or if "Sticky input aspect" is active or not. They only affect the output side aspect ratio used for whichever input-aspect is currently active.
> 
> ====
> 
> ZY550, should force Auto-aspect to start over, re-detect, and select, the source aspect ratio, even if Sticky-override is currently active. As this implies Sticky-override would be disabled by ZY550 after this. I have not personally tested ZY550. So, some testing of this is in order to confirm I am correct.
> 
> ====
> 
> It would be great if you could do a virtual Lumagen remote page in your Crestron module. This is something we paid for for the one on our website, but the programmer never delivered.
> 
> Also, I think even though only certain source aspects are currently detected, it would be good that the module reports the source aspect in one-hundredths supporting 1.00 up to 9.99. Note that 1.00 up to 2.99 should cover all but a couple of titles if you prefer. That way should we add more aspects the module would not need to be updated for the new aspect(s). The Crestron programmer could then "bucketize" them as desired.


Thanks Jim. 


I sent you an email at the support email address as I thought it better to liaise about the crestron module over email. 

I was actually planning on changing the reporting of aspect ratios from preset values like currently implemented to simply reporting the values to crestron as analog values exactly like you asked. It’s simpler programming and it’s more flexible in crestron anyway as it allows the crestron programmer to put aspect ratios into bucket sizEs of their own choosing. 

Will let you know how the progress goes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kurvenal

bobof said:


> Do you use a harmony or other control system? If so you could poke the AppleTV in the eye (also known as reboot it) when you start the AppleTV activity. The Harmony AppleTV IR code set has the reboot code in it.


Does anyone know if the new ATV also requires a reboot when selecting it as a source on powering on the Lumagen? If it behaves better that could be one of the few reasons to upgrade.


----------



## OzHDHT

I got inspired by the recent discussions here on linear power supplies. Given right now I can't justify a full upgrade a Radiance units to the new series, I thought I'd go about sourcing an upgraded PSU. I tracked down this one which I'm looking forward to installing later today:


----------



## Erod

Craig Peer said:


> I don't recall doing anything other than re-routing cables, but it's been a while.


So now I'm running everything through my HTP-1 processor, and sending video from it to the Lumagen.

Audio dropouts are gone, but now I'm getting video dropouts and sparkles. Can't be the cable because it's the same cable type I used from the sources to the Lumagen before. 

What now?


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> The only value that is used is the MaxCLL to put a top limit on the DTM scene transfer function maximum.
> 
> We are one point used the Minimum, but it turned out to be of no value.
> 
> The Pro calculates values for these on a frame-by-frame basis. It also keeps a history for these for use in scene detection.


thanks.
that also means that if the value of Mastering display luminance would be wrong, like when encoding with wrong values.  it wouldn't matter, right?


----------



## riddle

German Lumagen review with new remote


----------



## EVH78

Mark Burton said:


> Zappiti Pro


I have had the same exact issue with my Zappiti player and it was driving me insane. I changed cables and it did not help at all. So once I tracked down that the issue only occurred with the Zappiti and not with my Oppo, I figured that it had network problems. I removed the Zappiti from my theater network switch and connected it directly to my router. Never had a single audio dropout since. Maybe this helps


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> Netflix has some issues with their HDR for sure. I've seen some wild variations in a lot of their content, even when watching on my OLED with no Radiance. A great example is the Kevin Hart comedy special "no &$*#'s given". It will start at one brightness and then just slowly ramp down and down and down, almost until it is too dark to see and then jump instantly to a really bright image again. This happens on my OLED in DV as well. I've seen it on a few others too, though I haven't watch a lot of Netflix content in my theater lately.


Just checking you've disabled all the auto brightness limiting schemes on the display? What you describe sounds very much like ABL/ASBL...


----------



## bferbrache

Erod said:


> So now I'm running everything through my HTP-1 processor, and sending video from it to the Lumagen.
> 
> Audio dropouts are gone, but now I'm getting video dropouts and sparkles. Can't be the cable because it's the same cable type I used from the sources to the Lumagen before.
> 
> What now?


Did you try the video direct to the Lumagen and the audio to the processor from the 2 HDMI outputs on the Panasonic blu-ray player? I'm sure that will give you a good result

Brian


----------



## Jan.2000

riddle said:


> German Lumagen review with new remote


Well that's not a review, it's just a presentation of the 4242-C.


----------



## Erod

bferbrache said:


> Did you try the video direct to the Lumagen and the audio to the processor from the 2 HDMI outputs on the Panasonic blu-ray player? I'm sure that will give you a good result
> 
> Brian


Yes, that's the way I've had it for months, and I get audio dropouts. I switched it to solve that, and now I get video dropouts.

Kris suggested a longer cable, so I ordered one. Hopefully that works, but really, should cable length matter?


----------



## riddle

Jan.2000 said:


> Well that's not a review, it's just a presentation of the 4242-C.
> 
> Btw., @Gordon Fraser you sent me the wrong remote control


yes but he is already showing a new remote control


----------



## Mark Burton

EVH78 said:


> I have had the same exact issue with my Zappiti player and it was driving me insane. I changed cables and it did not help at all. So once I tracked down that the issue only occurred with the Zappiti and not with my Oppo, I figured that it had network problems. I removed the Zappiti from my theater network switch and connected it directly to my router. Never had a single audio dropout since. Maybe this helps


Thanks, but I don’t think this is the issue as it works perfectly when I bypass the audio on the lumagen. Plus all my other Zappitis throughout my house don’t have any issues.

If I remove the lumagen, I get no issues whatsoever, so it is clearly linked. What the actual issue is I don’t know, maybe it’s just some sort of compatibility issue?!?


----------



## fatherom

Erod said:


> Yes, that's the way I've had it for months, and I get audio dropouts. I switched it to solve that, and now I get video dropouts.
> 
> Kris suggested a longer cable, so I ordered one. Hopefully that works, but really, should cable length matter?


Wait, huh? That's not what you said earlier. We're talking about changing to the following configuration (which, from everything you've said up until now, you haven't done yet):

Hdmi cable 1 goes from video/audio output of blu-ray player to lumagen
Hdmi cable 2 goes from audio only output of blu-ray player to your AVR/processor - set AVR to appropriate input

This way, the dedicated audio from the player is going to your AVR.

Aside: As far as cable length mattering, it very much can. Read through the last several pages (specifically jrp's posts about this).


----------



## Erod

fatherom said:


> Wait, huh? That's not what you said earlier. We're talking about changing to the following configuration (which, from everything you've said up until now, you haven't done yet):
> 
> Hdmi cable 1 goes from video/audio output of blu-ray player to lumagen
> Hdmi cable 2 goes from audio only output of blu-ray player to your AVR/processor - set AVR to appropriate input
> 
> This way, the dedicated audio from the player is going to your AVR.
> 
> Aside: As far as cable length mattering, it very much can. Read through the last several pages (specifically jrp's posts about this).


Ok, that's fine for the Blu ray player. What about DirecTV? I get audio dropouts there, too. Same for Roku and PS4, although less frequently.

I switched my source inputs to the processor, and that solved audio dropouts entirely. But now I get video dropouts. 

I ordered a longer cable. That should not matter. I already bought the 6-foot cables Jim recommended, and now I'm being told to get a 15-foot cable for the audio out.

This is a clear flaw of the Lumagen.


----------



## Craig Peer

fatherom said:


> Wait, huh? That's not what you said earlier. We're talking about changing to the following configuration (which, from everything you've said up until now, you haven't done yet):
> 
> *Hdmi cable 1 goes from video/audio output of blu-ray player to lumagen
> Hdmi cable 2 goes from audio only output of blu-ray player to your AVR/processor - set AVR to appropriate input
> 
> This way, the dedicated audio from the player is going to your AVR.*
> 
> Aside: As far as cable length mattering, it very much can. Read through the last several pages (specifically jrp's posts about this).


Exactly. And 6' minimum HDMI cables. Oddly enough, the exact same brand / type 8' HDMI cables caused issues for some reason.


----------



## Craig Peer

Erod said:


> Ok, that's fine for the Blu ray player. * What about DirecTV? * I get audio dropouts there, too. Same for Roku and PS4, although less frequently.
> 
> I switched my source inputs to the processor, and that solved audio dropouts entirely. But now I get video dropouts.
> 
> I ordered a longer cable. That should not matter. I already bought the 6-foot cables Jim recommended, and now I'm being told to get a 15-foot cable for the audio out.
> 
> This is a clear flaw of the Lumagen.


Interestingly, I never got / get audio dropouts from my A T & T U Verse cable box going through the Lumagen ( both audio and video ). And I only got audio dropouts with 4K Blu-rays when both audio and video ran through the Lumagen - not 1080p sources.


----------



## Mike_WI

*FW Update*


Lumagen



*062721
- Posted 070621 *
Fixed some cases of false aspect detection with the auto aspect functionality. 
Improved deinterlacing and added automatic field flip detection. 
For a new unit the default for field flip detection is 'Auto' but is left as-is if you're updating your unit. 
If you have a flipped field interlaced video issue and want to have it dealt with automatically then you have to set it in the menu under _Input: In Configs: RES: Control: Deinterlace: Field_. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## Killroy

Silly question... If you saved your configs to file, do you get everything back when you do a factory reset "menu0999" and then reload you configs? Or do some settings get lost after the factory reset?


----------



## Erod

Craig Peer said:


> Exactly. And 6' minimum HDMI cables. Oddly enough, the exact same brand / type 8' HDMI cables caused issues for some reason.


I have all 6-foot cables. I was told to try a 4-5 meter cable for the audio out. I changed my system to go through the processor first, so I'll first try that cable as the video out to the Lumagen to try to get rid of the video dropouts, and if that doesn't work, I'll change everything back to go to the Lumagen first, then audio out to the processor to see if that fixes the audio dropouts.

And if that doesn't work, the Lumagen is going bye-bye.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Just checking you've disabled all the auto brightness limiting schemes on the display? What you describe sounds very much like ABL/ASBL...


I have unfortunately. It manifests on every HDR display I test it with. It does it with the Dolby Vision and HDR version as well. So seems to be embedded in the transfer.


----------



## sjschaff

Killroy said:


> Silly question... If you saved your configs to file, do you get everything back when you do a factory reset "menu0999" and then reload you configs? Or do some settings get lost after the factory reset?


Seems to me that you get every setting restored. Since the factory reset would not undo the current firmware level that you have updated, it should simply apply what you've restored. If, on the other hand, you change the firmware to some level that does not include new functionality, you would lose any setting associated with that new function. Never tried that myself so it's best to ask this of Jim if that is what you had in mind. The manual from January of this year: *MENU 0999 *Load Factory Settings (temporary Factory Reset unless Saved) and there's and there's another possible restore option: *Section 11 - Miscellaneous Commands* *Restore from Internal Backup memory:* *MENU *→ *Save*→ *Restore Backup *→ *OK *


----------



## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> Seems to me that you get every setting restored. Since the factory reset would not undo the current firmware level that you have updated, it should simply apply what you've restored. If, on the other hand, you change the firmware to some level that does not include new functionality, you would lose any setting associated with that new function. Never tried that myself so it's best to ask this of Jim if that is what you had in mind. The manual from January of this year: *MENU 0999 *Load Factory Settings (temporary Factory Reset unless Saved) and there's and there's another possible restore option: *Section 11 - Miscellaneous Commands* *Restore from Internal Backup memory:* *MENU *→ *Save*→ *Restore Backup *→ *OK *


Restore backup only works for units that have had their configuration backed up to the internal memory, which only happens if you specifically use a service level code to store it. This would probably not apply to most users.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Restore backup only works for units that have had their configuration backed up to the internal memory, which only happens if you specifically use a service level code to store it. This would probably not apply to most users.


@Gordon Fraser shared the codes here previously to save settings into the backup memory.

Quoted below for anyone who wants to use the internal backup / restore function (tread with care if you have a system an installer / calibrator looks after for you...! Best speak to them first).



Gordon Fraser said:


> For others interested in this who perhaps do not have ability to download config file you can do the following.
> 
> MENU 0910 to turn on service mode of scaler
> MENU 0997 OK to save back up in scaler itself.
> 
> Mneu 0910 to turn off service mode.
> 
> Now you can do whatever you want, factory reset, save new setttings ,whatever....When you want to go back to your old saved backup just go to MENU.SAVE.RESTORE BACK UP and it'll go to that saved back up. So you can then MENU>SAVE>SAVE. SAVE and it'll be back and in permanent use.


----------



## A7mad78

Is it needed to do restore factory setting for this update and for do it right do I do backup and then do the factory reset and thin update the FW or update the FW then do backup and make factory reset 


Or is this just not needed just do regular FW update 


Thx 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

No update requires a factory reset.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Just wanted to mention that the sync issues with ATV was solved when I also added an additional step of reboot of the same - these are the steps (a bit unfortunate when one have a laser projector adding so many seconds to the start-up)

1. Projector on
2. 10 sec delay
3. Lumagen on
4. Processsor and ATV on and Lumagen on input 1
5 10 sec delay
6. ATV reboot
7..25 sec delay
8. Lumagen Mem b and projector at memory REF 

Now it works and no sync issues and I get ATV without messing around and changing channel on Lumagen or switch HDMI inputs back and forth in projector


----------



## sjschaff

PeterLarsson said:


> Just wanted to mention that the sync issues with ATV was solved when I also added an additional step of reboot of the same - these are the steps (a bit unfortunate when one have a laser projector adding so many seconds to the start-up)
> 
> 1. Projector on
> 2. 10 sec delay
> 3. Lumagen on
> 4. Processsor and ATV on and Lumagen on input 1
> 5 10 sec delay
> 6. ATV reboot
> 7..25 sec delay
> 8. Lumagen Mem b and projector at memory REF
> 
> Now it works and no sync issues and I get ATV without messing around and changing channel on Lumagen or switch HDMI inputs back and forth in projector


Are you using a Logitech Harmony? If so, what real impact are you seeing with the delays? I know that when I put any delays in as you’ve done, for example your #2 it doesn’t affect the actual power on of any devices in the activity.


----------



## MOberhardt

sjschaff said:


> Are you using a Logitech Harmony? If so, what real impact are you seeing with the delays? I know that when I put any delays in as you’ve done, for example your #2 it doesn’t affect the actual power on of any devices in the activity.


Yeah it is a Harmony oddity. Activity delays don't work for power up. You have to set the power up delays on the device power options.


----------



## PeterLarsson

The added delays works of course. I have even stand beside all the units and counted the seconds.

Funny - When my aim was to share a solution on a problem with atv and no picture - you guys tells me it doesnt work haha. It does After the suggestion to reboot atv and not just ”power on”


----------



## sjschaff

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah it is a Harmony oddity. Activity delays don't work for power up. You have to set the power up delays on the device power options.


Well, in speaking with Harmony support, I’ve been told the user cannot control powering on any devices used by Activities either via the “Activity” or ‘Device” settings. The one for devices all affect post powering on, as I discovered reading through the 4 options. 

As for adding Delays in activities, they too, according to support, only apply to functions after devices are already powered on. 

So, I’ve been stymied attempting to get the Lumagen to consistently communicate with my sources or downstream devices (Trinnov audio processor and JVC projector). Often have to put the Lumagen into “Standby” and then turn it On to get everything working.


----------



## PeterLarsson

I am sorry - but:
1. Projector on
2. Delay 10 sec
3. Whatever unit on

I get 10 sec before the no 3 powers up. Why are we debating this when it works like that infront of my own eyes? I solved my problem with ATV.


----------



## sjschaff

May work for you but not my setup. What specific Harmony are you using? My hub based Elite fails to do so. I set up my activity as JVC then Delay 15 seconds then Lumagen. When I use the remote to start the activity the projector and Lumagen both power up within less than a second of each other.


----------



## MOberhardt

sjschaff said:


> Well, in speaking with Harmony support, I’ve been told the user cannot control powering on any devices used by Activities either via the “Activity” or ‘Device” settings. The one for devices all affect post powering on, as I discovered reading through the 4 options.
> 
> As for adding Delays in activities, they too, according to support, only apply to functions after devices are already powered on.
> 
> So, I’ve been stymied attempting to get the Lumagen to consistently communicate with my sources or downstream devices (Trinnov audio processor and JVC projector). Often have to put the Lumagen into “Standby” and then turn it On to get everything working.


I followed these instructions and all works. I set on each device I wanted a start up delay on.





Fixing Power-on Delays


Power on delay is the amount of time between when a device first powers on and when it will begin responding to commands sent to it




support.myharmony.com




.


----------



## sjschaff

Well as this page you have referenced says:

*ADJUSTING A DEVICE'S POWER ON DELAY*
Power on delay is the amount of time between when a device first powers on and when it will begin responding to commands sent to it. Increase the value to lengthen the time between Harmony turning on the device and when it sends the next command.

This has nothing to do with when a device powers up but how long it will wait till it will accept and respond to new commands. Like I said: support tells me all devices listed in an activity are started at the same time.

Specifically for Devices:









If anyone has a different process I’d love to hear it.


----------



## bjorg

I've updated to the latest firmware on my RadiancePro. The flickering is still there in Netflix. However, when I watched _Justice is Gray_ I didn't notice any and there are a lot of dimly lit scenes! So this might be a Netflix issue. I'll see if I can narrow it down further.


----------



## MOberhardt

sjschaff said:


> Well as this page you have referenced says:
> 
> *ADJUSTING A DEVICE'S POWER ON DELAY*
> Power on delay is the amount of time between when a device first powers on and when it will begin responding to commands sent to it. Increase the value to lengthen the time between Harmony turning on the device and when it sends the next command.
> 
> This has nothing to do with when a device powers up but how long it will wait till it will accept and respond to new commands. Like I said: support tells me all devices listed in an activity are started at the same time.
> 
> Specifically for Devices:
> View attachment 3152483
> 
> 
> If anyone has a different process I’d love to hear it.


Have you tried it? On my elite, I'd set delays between the device start ups and it had no effect. I wanted the projector on first then 20 second later the AVR and 15 after that the UHD player. But when I watched the start up, they all started same time. I contacted them and they pointed me to that. I set the power on delay and I set the AVR to 20 seconds and UHD / Apple TV etc to 20+15 = 35 and when I start the activity, I can see the projector start immediately, then I hear and see the AVR, then I see the video source power on. And I have no delays in the actual activities.

Maybe they changed it all since, but my activities all still work as I'd set them up


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I solved my Apple TV issues by turning off standby mode on the Apple TV. I just let it run 24/7 no issues now with startup etc.


----------



## sjschaff

MOberhardt said:


> Have you tried it? On my elite, I'd set delays between the device start ups and it had no effect. I wanted the projector on first then 20 second later the AVR and 15 after that the UHD player. But when I watched the start up, they all started same time. I contacted them and they pointed me to that. I set the power on delay and I set the AVR to 20 seconds and UHD / Apple TV etc to 20+15 = 35 and when I start the activity, I can see the projector start immediately, then I hear and see the AVR, then I see the video source power on. And I have no delays in the actual activities.
> 
> Maybe they changed it all since, but my activities all still work as I'd set them up


How about the Lumagen? That’s the core of my problem. As the control point in source and destination (audio processor and projector) it’s the one that isn’t seeing anything!


----------



## MOberhardt

sjschaff said:


> How about the Lumagen? That’s the core of my problem. As the control point in source and destination (audio processor and projector) it’s the one that isn’t seeing anything!


I actually have that starting same time as the projector, so no delay - but I'm running video source -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Projector.

That said, a device start up delay works for EVERY OTHER DEVICE on my Harmony, I can't see why it wouldn't on the Lumagen if I needed it. Makes zero sense.


----------



## bjorg

I keep my AppleTV and RadiancePro on 24/7.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> I keep my AppleTV and Radiance Pro on 24/7.


While we recommend putting the Radiance Pro in standby when not in use, some find leaving it on all the time works for them.

If you leave it on all the time the power consumption will be somewhat less if you select an unused input, or turn the selected source completely off. This sends the same video level to the FPGA for all pixels. Since CMOS device power is related to C*(V^2)*F, taking the Frequency for video data changing to zero reduces power. The FPGA and other devices will still use power, but it will be less than when processing active video.


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> thanks.
> that also means that if the value of Mastering display luminance would be wrong, like when encoding with wrong values.  it wouldn't matter, right?


Your post actually served as a reminder.

I should have noted that the Radiance Pro also uses the Mastering Monitor Max to limit the MaxCLL to no more than the Mastering Monitor Maximum reported in the HDR10 Metadata.

One example of why is Mad Max Fury Road. It was mastered on a 4000 nit monitor, but has a specified MaxCLL around 9900 (if my memory serves on this). On a 4000 nit monitor anything above 4000 nits would be clamped to the maximum the monitor can reproduce. Nothing over 4000 nits would have been seen in Post Production. So there is no reason to set any scene maximum higher than the Mastering Monitor Maximum.

While we have seen a lot of content where MaxCLL is wrong, as I recall, when reported (so not 0 which would be ignored by the Pro), the Max Mon Metadata has been correct.


----------



## OzHDHT

I have zero issues with my Harmony Touch and hub combo for firing up ATV, Lumagen and RS4500. Mine runs ATV -> Lumagen -> Projector. Best thing about the Lumagen has been being able to not have my MX160 in the video chain any longer causing issues.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I solved my Apple TV issues by turning off standby mode on the Apple TV. I just let it run 24/7 no issues now with startup etc.


Yup, that was my 2nd option if the reboot didnt work. I am a greedy guy haha and dont want the units on power 24/7.


----------



## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> ... dont want the units on power 24/7.


I could not agree more to that one!


----------



## sjschaff

MOberhardt said:


> I actually have that starting same time as the projector, so no delay - but I'm running video source -> AVR -> Lumagen -> Projector.
> 
> That said, a device start up delay works for EVERY OTHER DEVICE on my Harmony, I can't see why it wouldn't on the Lumagen if I needed it. Makes zero sense.


Your setup, if I read correctly, places the audio processor before the Lumagen. Mine, as recommended by JRP, is to have all inputs into the Lumagen and run the dedicated Audio Out to my Trinnov audio processor. Explains nothing as to why the Lumagen occasionally fails to "see" sources or downstream (audio/video) devices. Perplexing...(and of course Harmony signaling and EDID stuff may complicate matters).


----------



## sjschaff

By the way, Lumagen has just put up a new version of the Radiance Pro Manual.


----------



## bowlingbeeg

sjschaff said:


> Well as this page you have referenced says:
> 
> *ADJUSTING A DEVICE'S POWER ON DELAY*
> Power on delay is the amount of time between when a device first powers on and when it will begin responding to commands sent to it. Increase the value to lengthen the time between Harmony turning on the device and when it sends the next command.
> 
> This has nothing to do with when a device powers up but how long it will wait till it will accept and respond to new commands. Like I said: support tells me all devices listed in an activity are started at the same time.
> 
> Specifically for Devices:
> View attachment 3152483
> 
> 
> If anyone has a different process I’d love to hear it.


You're not alone, this is the way my Harmony Elite and hub work. It's super annoying because adding delays during power up seems like a basic feature that it should do. When I add that delay being referenced above it's just a delay in sending subsequent commands to that device, it doesn't affect other devices at all.


----------



## docrog

sjschaff said:


> Your setup, if I read correctly, places the audio processor before the Lumagen. Mine, as recommended by JRP, is to have all inputs into the Lumagen and run the dedicated Audio Out to my Trinnov audio processor. Explains nothing as to why the Lumagen occasionally fails to "see" sources or downstream (audio/video) devices. Perplexing...(and of course Harmony signaling and EDID stuff may complicate matters).


Using the AVR/Pre-Pro as the video switching device with certain current state of the art processors has now apparently been fully accepted by Lumagen as a valid pathway. Although this setup works perfectly with current Yamaha, Denon & Marantz processors, I'm unable to comment whether or not this pathway is applicable to those with Trinnov processors because I don't know if it's capable of being a similar switching device for video sources.


----------



## docrog

Relative to recent firmware updates, could someone please explain in what type of situation a user might choose to sharpen differently in horizontal versus vertical directions rather than increasing or decreasing *overall* sharpness??? Thanks!


----------



## sjschaff

Certainly a pathway, though not a "preferred" one, from what I gather. At least my 5348, which has dedicated outputs for audio and video, would argue otherwise. Remains to be "seen" (sorry for the pun) whether or not some AVR/Pre-pro manufacturers would recommend one approach versus another. My guess, as they predominate in our video world, is to use their device as receiving all input and dispersing video from their output -- either directly to a video display or an intermediary processor.


----------



## docrog

sjschaff said:


> Certainly a pathway, though not a "preferred" one, from what I gather. At least my 5348, which has dedicated outputs for audio and video, would argue otherwise. Remains to be "seen" (sorry for the pun) whether or not some AVR/Pre-pro manufacturers would recommend one approach versus another. My guess, as they predominate in our video world, is to use their device as receiving all input and dispersing video from their output -- either directly to a video display or an intermediary processor.


I suggest that you take a look at p.8 in the current on-line RP manual. Although *receiver after RP *is the 1st one listed, it does *NOT* indicate "Preferred", only "Most Common Configuration". The only caveat mentioned for *receiver in front of* *RP* is to be certain that all video processing is disabled in the receiver (pre-pro). Current high end devices are fully capable of meeting that criteria.


----------



## sjschaff

Latest version of the RP manual (from a few days ago) covers this on page 8. Does recommend the receiver after RP for a few reasons, I suspect that if care is used in setup, any caveats "should not" cause any adverse issues in video or sound quality. Of course, any time you put additional physical tech between a source and destination (like cabling or another electronic device) problems may crop up. Guess it's always best to try it in your own system...


----------



## docrog

sjschaff said:


> Latest version of the RP manual (from a few days ago) covers this on page 8. Does recommend the receiver after RP for a few reasons, I suspect that if care is used in setup, any caveats "should not" cause any adverse issues in video or sound quality. Of course, any time you put additional physical tech between a source and destination (like cabling or another electronic device) problems may crop up. Guess it's always best to try it in your own system...


I was referring to p. 8 of the revised on-line manual of 7/6/21. I just re-checked the page and am unable to find "*recommended*" anywhere in the verbiage (only "*default*" with audio off).


----------



## sjschaff

True that "recommended" is not an explicit word used. However, this sounds like one:

"This configuration can improve switching delays by using the Radiance Pro’s input switching and guarantees that the receiver does not degrade the video. It also minimizes the work needed to configure the Radiance, for the TV/projector output, because audio is off by default."

I'd call it a "hint" at least.


----------



## docrog

sjschaff said:


> True that "recommended" is not an explicit word used. However, this sounds like one:
> 
> "This configuration can improve switching delays by using the Radiance Pro’s input switching and guarantees that the receiver does not degrade the video. It also minimizes the work needed to configure the Radiance, for the TV/projector output, because audio is off by default."
> 
> I'd call it a "hint" at least.


You're most certainly entitled to interpret these words however you'd choose. But, note it doesn't say "*WILL* improve switching delays" (only "*CAN*") and only "guarantees that receiver does not degrade the video" but in the later section it states "note that *SOME* receivers add artifacts to the video", implying that not "*ALL DO*". BTW, with regards to configuring the RP, having only a single HDMI video input from the receiver/pre-pro to the RP couldn't have been more straightforward. The topic of video pathway configuration has regularly been revisited here and the several pluses and (potential) minus of video degradation have debated to death....


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> Your post actually served as a reminder.
> 
> I should have noted that the Radiance Pro also uses the Mastering Monitor Max to limit the MaxCLL to no more than the Mastering Monitor Maximum reported in the HDR10 Metadata.
> 
> One example of why is Mad Max Fury Road. It was mastered on a 4000 nit monitor, but has a specified MaxCLL around 9900 (if my memory serves on this). On a 4000 nit monitor anything above 4000 nits would be clamped to the maximum the monitor can reproduce. Nothing over 4000 nits would have been seen in Post Production. So there is no reason to set any scene maximum higher than the Mastering Monitor Maximum.
> 
> While we have seen a lot of content where MaxCLL is wrong, as I recall, when reported (so not 0 which would be ignored by the Pro), the Max Mon Metadata has been correct.


but that also means that wrong data for that value, does have an impact after all?
Even more when both are wrong?
As mentioned I've encoded movies with fixed values for those, 0.0001 and 1000.
Can I do something about it without re-encoding?

Mastering display luminance : *min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2*
Maximum Content Light Level : 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1391 cd/m2

or like this, CLL is higher than the maximum
Mastering display luminance : *min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2 * -> 0.0001 and 1000
Maximum Content Light Level : 1655 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 117 cd/m2


----------



## picree

I'm trying to calibrate SDR according to the LRP manual. Namely - set LRP output to SDR2020 and autoconvert = on. The issue is setting contrast using test pattern Contrast1. If the output colorspace is SDR2020 reducing contrast reduces the overall APL but does not affect crushing. If I switch the output colorspace to SDR709 then reduce contrast, it appears to have the intended affect - namely it shifts the crushing both above and below 100% but it does not change the overall APL so it can be set accordingly. How come when I set the output colorspace to SDR2020 the contrast controls (Projector, LRP input, or LRP output) all reduce the entire APL rather than shift the point of crushing? What am I doing wrong or is that the intended behavior?


----------



## Kris Deering

Lumagen will always say their preference is to use the Lumagen BEFORE any audio receiver/processor. They will say that there are models that seem to work well for using before the Lumagen, but the preferred method IS Lumagen for all switching with audio out to AVR/SSP. This is especially true for the 5348 given its design goals. How you setup your system to make it work is up to you though, obviously. 



Roland Janus said:


> but that also means that wrong data for that value, does have an impact after all?
> Even more when both are wrong?
> As mentioned I've encoded movies with fixed values for those, 0.0001 and 1000.
> Can I do something about it without re-encoding?
> 
> Mastering display luminance : *min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2*
> Maximum Content Light Level : 4000 cd/m2
> Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1391 cd/m2
> 
> or like this, CLL is higher than the maximum
> Mastering display luminance : *min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2 * -> 0.0001 and 1000
> Maximum Content Light Level : 1655 cd/m2
> Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 117 cd/m2


If you are manually changing the mastering info, that is kind of on you. How the Lumagen will handle your examples is:

Example 1: It will use 4000 as the max

Example 2: It will use 1000 as the max

If you want it to be more accurate for the source, don't change the metadata.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen will always say their preference is to use the Lumagen BEFORE any audio receiver/processor. They will say that there are models that seem to work well for using before the Lumagen, but the preferred method IS Lumagen for all switching with audio out to AVR/SSP. This is especially true for the 5348 given its design goals. How you setup your system to make it work is up to you though, obviously.


Kris, when Craig R. was here in early 2020 to perform my initial RP calibration I specifically asked him whether he could perceive any video degradation (or other artifacts) due to having the Denon 6700X as the switching source (in front of the RP 4240). He indicated that the NX7 image was as clean in this configuration as he would have expected it to be if the RP were to be used as the switching device. He also felt that video sync time was not adversely affected. Given that "thumbs up" I was thrilled to be able to make use of the Denon GUI, irrespective of others here who either don't care about preservation of that function in real time and/or have gone to alternative measures to have access to the GUI by running a 2nd video to the primary display (requiring exiting their program) or to a smaller 2nd display located in a more remote location. Also, for me, issues associated with streaming devices like Roku or ATV having only a single HDMI output (no separate HDMI audio) meant that all audio sources were managed identically via the single HDMI connection from the sources to the AVR. I have never suffered from* any *audio dropouts or experienced unexpected audio sync issues that weren't able to be easily corrected by accessing audio delay functionality via the Denon on-screen GUI.


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen will always say their preference is to use the Lumagen BEFORE any audio receiver/processor. They will say that there are models that seem to work well for using before the Lumagen, but the preferred method IS Lumagen for all switching with audio out to AVR/SSP. This is especially true for the 5348 given its design goals. How you setup your system to make it work is up to you though, obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are manually changing the mastering info, that is kind of on you. How the Lumagen will handle your examples is:
> 
> Example 1: It will use 4000 as the max
> 
> Example 2: It will use 1000 as the max
> 
> If you want it to be more accurate for the source, don't change the metadata.


hence if CLL is now higher than Mastering display luminance max should be, it results in less CLL.
That's bad in my case.

what happens with that:

Mastering display luminance : *min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2 -> 0.0001 and 1000* 
Maximum Content Light Level : 605 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 89 cd/m2

Here CLL is not higher than 1000, would that be fine?

as far as I know, they are attributes, not part of the encoding directly, can those be changed in an MKV? (sorry for being OT here)


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> as far as I know, they are attributes, not part of the encoding directly, can those be changed in an MKV? (sorry for being OT here)


I am pretty sure the metadata is part of the elementary stream (ie the HEVC H265 or whatever stream) and not the MKV container itself. The metadata repeats frequently during the stream (otherwise seeking etc wouldn't work). So you'd need a tool to access that stream to edit it. Seems like a lot of work, but maybe something you can automate. 
This is an involved process, I've never had cause to do it myself. There is some info here:




__





Add HDR metadata without re-encoding? [Archive] - Doom9's Forum


[Archive] Add HDR metadata without re-encoding? High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC)



forum.doom9.org





You could just make a memory in the Lumagen that overrides the MaxCLL in such instances where you know, having pre-processed the title - that the metadata is bogus.


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> I am pretty sure the metadata is part of the elementary stream (ie the HEVC H265 or whatever stream) and not the MKV container itself. The metadata repeats frequently during the stream (otherwise seeking etc wouldn't work). So you'd need a tool to access that stream to edit it. Seems like a lot of work, but maybe something you can automate.
> This is an involved process, I've never had cause to do it myself. There is some info here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add HDR metadata without re-encoding? [Archive] - Doom9's Forum
> 
> 
> [Archive] Add HDR metadata without re-encoding? High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC)
> 
> 
> 
> forum.doom9.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You could just make a memory in the Lumagen that overrides the MaxCLL in such instances where you know, having pre-processed the title - that the metadata is bogus.


I guess you're right 
SEIEdit or its successor HDRMaster can do it as shown here: 



 , but it's expensive.

Your alternative solution sounds doable, although a PITA. I would need to determine the proper value first and change it.

I just found this:








GitHub - SK-Hardwired/nv_hevc_hdr_patcher: Tiny python script adding/altering basic HDR metadata (SEI and SPS VUI) to raw HEVC streams from NVENC


Tiny python script adding/altering basic HDR metadata (SEI and SPS VUI) to raw HEVC streams from NVENC - GitHub - SK-Hardwired/nv_hevc_hdr_patcher: Tiny python script adding/altering basic HDR meta...




github.com












GitHub - YouTubeHDR/hdr_metadata


Contribute to YouTubeHDR/hdr_metadata development by creating an account on GitHub.




github.com





those sound like the solution to my problem I think?

UPDATE:
I've tested the exe, using some dummy values on an mkv,

mkvmerge.exe -o output.mkv --min-luminance 0:0.0001 --max-luminance 0:2000 input.mkv

only took a few minutes on a SSD, resulted in that:

*Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 2000 cd/m2
MasteringDisplay_Luminance_Original: min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2*
Maximum Content Light Level: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level: 293 cd/m2

so, it updated "Mastering display luminance" and made a "backup" entry.
That should work with the Pro right?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> I guess you're right
> SEIEdit or its successor HDRMaster can do it as shown here:
> 
> 
> 
> , but it's expensive.
> 
> Your alternative solution sounds doable, although a PITA. I would need to determine the proper value first and change it.
> 
> I just found this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GitHub - SK-Hardwired/nv_hevc_hdr_patcher: Tiny python script adding/altering basic HDR metadata (SEI and SPS VUI) to raw HEVC streams from NVENC
> 
> 
> Tiny python script adding/altering basic HDR metadata (SEI and SPS VUI) to raw HEVC streams from NVENC - GitHub - SK-Hardwired/nv_hevc_hdr_patcher: Tiny python script adding/altering basic HDR meta...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> github.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GitHub - YouTubeHDR/hdr_metadata
> 
> 
> Contribute to YouTubeHDR/hdr_metadata development by creating an account on GitHub.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> github.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> those sound like the solution to my problem I think?
> 
> UPDATE:
> I've tested the exe, using some dummy values on an mkv,
> 
> mkvmerge.exe -o output.mkv --min-luminance 0:0.0001 --max-luminance 0:2000 input.mkv
> 
> only took a few minutes on a SSD, resulted in that:
> 
> *Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 2000 cd/m2
> MasteringDisplay_Luminance_Original: min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2*
> Maximum Content Light Level: 1000 cd/m2
> Maximum Frame-Average Light Level: 293 cd/m2
> 
> so, it updated "Mastering display luminance" and made a "backup" entry.
> That should work with the Pro right?


Why don't you try it? You can see the reported data on the Lumagen. 
It sounds like you've just updated the MKV file though, and not the HEVC stream, so what you get will depend on player behaviour - whether it uses the MKV data or allows the stream data to come through.


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Why don't you try it? You can see the reported data on the Lumagen.
> It sounds like you've just updated the MKV file though, and not the HEVC stream, so what you get will depend on player behaviour - whether it uses the MKV data or allows the stream data to come through.


Since it's going through the whole file, takes a while, I think it's not just updating the header as "mkvtoolnix header editor" would do, I think it might just work.
Right, I give it a try 

if it works I just have to get the proper values and "remux" them.


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> Since it's going through the whole file, takes a while, I think it's not just updating the header as "mkvtoolnix header editor" would do, I think it might just work.
> Right, I give it a try
> 
> if it works I just have to get the proper values and "remux" them.


Maybe, who knows. Devil is always in the detail so best to try it. The MKV utility does seem to say it is addressing the MKV container, rather than the elemental stream within the container, so I think results may vary for different players. I'm not sure what is supposed to take precedence if they differ (which would seem a bad situation to get into)


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Maybe, who knows. Devil is always in the detail so best to try it. The MKV utility does seem to say it is addressing the MKV container, rather than the elemental stream within the container, so I think results may vary for different players. I'm not sure what is supposed to take precedence if they differ (which would seem a bad situation to get into)


the original tool will just update the container, that custom version doesn't, but the stream instead.
I will see by jumping in the video I assume.

thanks though, through your suggestion I found it


----------



## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> hence if CLL is now higher than Mastering display luminance max should be, it results in less CLL.
> That's bad in my case.
> 
> what happens with that:
> 
> Mastering display luminance : *min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2 -> 0.0001 and 1000*
> Maximum Content Light Level : 605 cd/m2
> Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 89 cd/m2
> 
> Here CLL is not higher than 1000, would that be fine?
> 
> as far as I know, they are attributes, not part of the encoding directly, can those be changed in an MKV? (sorry for being OT here)


In this case it would use a max of 605


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> the original tool will just update the container, that custom version doesn't, but the stream instead.
> I will see by jumping in the video I assume.
> 
> thanks though, through your suggestion I found it


If you get a workflow that works then let us know. It has to be an interesting technique to optimise the metadata of the title where it isn't optimised and is instead just using some standard studio numbers.


----------



## Surge2018

187crew003 said:


> Yes I have the same thing. I thought it was just older movies (since I have t noticed it on newer films ) but it’s definitely there


Yes, I have noticed this as well, using Apple TV, streaming a new title, with DTM (obvisouly). I will note down the time and title next time.


----------



## Roland Janus

Kris Deering said:


> In this case it would use a max of 605


that would be fine, right. Bad example


----------



## picree

Don't mean to derail the convo so...simpler question:

How do I set SDR contrast when calibrating SDR709 "into an SDR2020 container"?


----------



## Roland Janus

that's from a regular UHD, does it make sense as the Pro will limit it to 1000, right?

Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 1595 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 479 cd/m2


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> that's from a regular UHD, does it make sense as the Pro will limit it to 1000, right?
> 
> Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
> Maximum Content Light Level : 1595 cd/m2
> Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 479 cd/m2


I've not tried it to check the behaviour, but yes, it would make sense to limit to 1000. That would be what the colorist saw, with a hard clip to 1000 nits (assuming the mastering display metadata is correct). Mastering displays hard clip and don't do any tone mapping. At least that is my understanding.


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> Why don't you try it? You can see the reported data on the Lumagen.
> It sounds like you've just updated the MKV file though, and not the HEVC stream, so what you get will depend on player behaviour - whether it uses the MKV data or allows the stream data to come through.


Damn, it's not working.

That's what the file seems to have:

Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
MasteringDisplay_Luminance_Original : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 162 cd/m2

The Pro still reports the old values.

I've then tried the other tool, where the stream has to be exported and a new masterdisplay conf. is used:

nvhsp.exe -masterdisplay "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(40000000,50)" in.h265 out.h265

the info is better now, that's the stream not a MKV:











but I still get the old values from the Pro.

Where is the Pro reading that old info from?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> Where is the Pro reading that old info from?


From what your player chooses to send over HDMI; the Pro has no access to the source content file or container. The player has to get the info from somewhere (or not, in the case of broken players that don't send proper data). Which is why I said your results may vary depending on which player you are using.

This is from the manual of a Rohde and Schwarz piece of HDMI 2.0 test gear:
"...the source sends HDR content, including the necessary metadata. 
The metadata is transmitted in the data island periods (where the transmission of audio data and additional data occurs with HDMI) as a Dynamic Range and Mastering InfoFrame. An InfoFrame is sent every two pictures."

If you follow link in my sig there were some very basic details of how to master your own HDR test pattern with different metadata for testing, using command line utilities. These I know play back properly from my Oppo.

The obvious place to start to pick this apart is to start with two well-ripped yet different MKVs and verify you can see these all report the correct data in your tools, in the player UI, in the Lumagen, and then work out how to make one look like the other once you are sure all the basics are in place.


----------



## Roland Janus

bobof said:


> From what your player chooses to send over HDMI; the Pro has no access to the source content file or container. The player has to get the info from somewhere (or not, in the case of broken players that don't send proper data). Which is why I said your results may vary depending on which player you are using.
> 
> This is from the manual of a Rohde and Schwarz piece of HDMI 2.0 test gear:
> "...the source sends HDR content, including the necessary metadata.
> The metadata is transmitted in the data island periods (where the transmission of audio data and additional data occurs with HDMI) as a Dynamic Range and Mastering InfoFrame. An InfoFrame is sent every two pictures."
> 
> If you follow link in my sig there were some very basic details of how to master your own HDR test pattern with different metadata for testing, using command line utilities. These I know play back properly from my Oppo.
> 
> The obvious place to start to pick this apart is to start with two well-ripped yet different MKVs and verify you can see these all report the correct data in your tools, in the player UI, in the Lumagen, and then work out how to make one look like the other once you are sure all the basics are in place.


the player of course, makes sense, Kodi in this case and because of that I have to get creative.

I figured it out theoretically.


extract the stream and remove metadata, using ffmpeg.exe -y -i input.mkv -c:v copy -bsf:v "filter_units=remove_types=35|38-40" out.h265
re-insert that data (here with fixed values to demonstrate): nvhsp.exe -masterdisplay "G(13250,34500)B(7500,3000)R(34000,16000)WP(15635,16450)L(40000000,50)" -maxcll 162,1000 out.h265 out_new.h265
remux that and also provide proper FPS, otherwise weird values are used like 24.036 FPS

The result file has the correct metadata and is reported correctly in the Pro

Before:
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 162 cd/m2

After:
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 162 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 1000 cd/m2
SEI_rbsp_stop_one_bit : Missing

just the last entry I don't know what to do with it.

And the whole thing is cumbersome.
While the first two are easy to automate, even getting the proper source values for re-use, creating the proper command line in mkvmerge isn't.


----------



## picree

Is this really related to a Lumagen? Maybe this sort of detailed discussion needs to be taken offline.


----------



## Roland Janus

picree said:


> Is this really related to a Lumagen? Maybe this sort of detailed discussion needs to be taken offline.


you're not wrong, but I figured this thread can handle it and it's also about how the Pro handles the data.


----------



## picree

How do I set SDR contrast when calibrating SDR709 "into an SDR2020 container" so to speak? With Colorspace 601/709 <-> 2020 = On and the projector in 2020 mode contrast adjustments simply make the entire image dimmer rather than shifting the "crush point". Am I doing it wrong?


----------



## Kurvenal

bowlingbeeg said:


> You're not alone, this is the way my Harmony Elite and hub work. It's super annoying because adding delays during power up seems like a basic feature that it should do. When I add that delay being referenced above it's just a delay in sending subsequent commands to that device, it doesn't affect other devices at all.


I followed the instructions on pg 31 of the new Radiance Pro Owner's Manual and set my ATV as the default initial input and set the Initial Input Selection Delay to On. I have not tested it for very long, but now my ATV screensaver is coming on reliably every time I select the ATV as my input, which was not previously the case. 

I have copied the descriptions of the commands below. See text in *bold/italic/underline* that seems potentially relevant for those of us who have been getting a blank screen when selecting ATV as the input. 

I will be very interested in hearing whether anyone else gets similar positive results by using this setting with their ATV. 

*Initial Input Selection *

Sets which input and input memory is selected when the unit is turned on, either after power has been removed or the unit has been put into standby. The command is: 

*MENU *→ *Other *→ *OnOff Setup *→ *Input Select*→ *(After Power Removed, After Standby) 

Initial Input Selection Delay 

For streamers that go into an unusual state after prolonged sleep mode (e.g. overnight), the Radiance Pro can delay activating the input selected at power-on by an additional 3 seconds. This helps with power on for such sources. *The command is: 

*MENU *→ *Other *→ *OnOff Setup *→ *Input Select*→ *Delay Selection *→ *(On, Off)*


----------



## bobof

picree said:


> How do I set SDR contrast when calibrating SDR709 "into an SDR2020 container" so to speak? With Colorspace 601/709 <-> 2020 = On and the projector in 2020 mode contrast adjustments simply make the entire image dimmer rather than shifting the "crush point". Am I doing it wrong?


You've asked the same question 3 times now, maybe the question isn't providing enough information about what you are seeing that you think is "wrong" for people to reply?

I just tried it myself using your basic info to see what may be happening that you're maybe objecting to (I don't use SDR2020). To me it seems like contrast adjustment of SDR2020 on my X7900 with autoconvert enabled seems to work "OK". The only "gotcha" is that basically illegal video input values above 235 are hard clipped and don't make it through the Radiance at all. This is probably reasonable as I don't believe values above 940 are legal for SDR2020 (they're certainly not legal for HDR2020, as 940 is 10,000 nits, which is where the spec ends). The Radiance LUTs also don't provide control points for non-video legal values either, so this behaviour is kind of consistent. It might be though that for SDR2020 values above 940 are allowed, I really don't know or have the inclination to research more... 

If you display an image with the Spears and Munsil disk with 231-253 white values, the only values you can ever see are the video legal 231-235. You can increase contrast and make 234 stop being visible, so the "correct" contrast setting in a display would probably be to increase contrast until 234 disappears, and then decrease it until 234 "just" re-appears.

It looks like if you want to view "Superwhite" content and think that is important (ie SDR values 236+) you are probably not able to do that using the SDR2020 709->2020 conversion the Radiance does. Most people disregard Superwhite content in projection systems, as allowing it to be displayed gives away valuable contrast ratio for almost no gain.

I'm not 100% sure of the above, a lot is guessing based on your post, if you want to dig into this more I'd suggest to post something more explicit with screen shots of what is going on that you don't think is correct, which values you want to be able to see but can't, etc etc. Or maybe contact the Lumagen guys on the [email protected] email address.


----------



## picree

Thanks @bobof your reply has helped a lot. I only posted repeatedly because it was getting buried in the other convo. Your reply is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't understand how to use the S&M pattern because I was trying to get all the white boxes on the contrast pattern to blink. I need to read more about legal white levels and video specifications. I just found the article on S&M site about setting contrast. That too is VERY helpful.


----------



## picree

What remains confusing: If I set the video chain from source to display for 709 and bring up the Adjustable Contrast1 pattern on the LRP I can raise contrast a few clicks and make the -4% bar disappear AND I can lower contrast a few clicks and make the +4% bar appear. However if I switch the video chain from the LRP to the display to 2020 with 2020<->601/709 = on then I can no longer make the +4% bar appear by lowering contrast. I am begining to think (from your post) that this is intended behavior). My goal is to only display up to reference white.

This gets back to the original question: Namely - if this is intended then, when outputting SDR2020 with 2020<->601/709 = on do we first set contrast with the video chain set to 709 and then switch autoconvert on (letting the LRP do it's thing)?


----------



## bobof

picree said:


> What remains confusing: If I set the video chain from source to display for 709 and bring up the Adjustable Contrast1 pattern on the LRP I can raise contrast a few clicks and make the -4% bar disappear AND I can lower contrast a few clicks and make the +4% bar appear. However if I switch the video chain from the LRP to the display to 2020 with 2020<->601/709 = on then I can no longer make the +4% bar appear by lowering contrast. I am begining to think (from your post) that this is intended behavior). My goal is to only display up to reference white.
> 
> This gets back to the original question: Namely - if this is intended then, when outputting SDR2020 with 2020<->601/709 = on do we first set contrast with the video chain set to 709 and then switch autoconvert on (letting the LRP do it's thing)?


I don't think it was buried, just there was barely enough to go on...  I had to do a bit of digging to work out what you were probably talking about...

The +4% bar is outside of video legal range, so I think it falls into the discussed above values that are hard clipped out of existence if you use the Lumagen REC709 > 2020 conversion. This will probably be the reason for what you see. Maybe @jrp can comment on whether he thinks SDR2020 should hard clip values outside SDR video legal, like it appears to do. 

I find the Lumagen built in contrast and brightness bars a bit of a blunt instrument because they use rough %ages instead of pixel values, so I prefer to use some test disc instead of these patterns.

You don't need to see values above video legal to correctly set contrast if you are not reserving video white. As I mentioned, you can just make 234 disappear by raising contrast, then drop it back so it re-appears. At that point you have distinct visible values all the way up to 235. Depending on how exactly the display clips at the very top end of its input range you might reduce it a further click or two to get better gamma at the top.

You should make contrast etc settings with the Lumagen video output in the mode you will use it in unless you are very familiar with exactly how your display works internally and know it is safe to do different. Otherwise you can end up with different results due to modes not behaving the same.


----------



## guitarguy316

LG OLEDs really leave a lot to be desired as far as upscaling goes. What's the cheapest way to get into one of these to improve cable tv, etc. upscaling/processing before the LG? Maybe I misunderstood what these units can do?


----------



## picree

bobof said:


> I don't think it was buried, just there was barely enough to go on...  I had to do a bit of digging to work out what you were probably talking about...
> 
> The +4% bar is outside of video legal range, so I think it falls into the discussed above values that are hard clipped out of existence if you use the Lumagen REC709 > 2020 conversion. This will probably be the reason for what you see.......


@bobof thanks for your thoughts and replies. The time you take to reply means a lot and add so much to the thread. @jrp can you comment? If I follow Lumagen's advice and put SDR709 into an SDR2020 container how exactly do I set contrast using Contrast1? If I output plain 709 I can lower contrast and see the +4% bar but if I output 2020 with 2020<->601/709 = on lowering contrast does not allow me to see the +4% bar. It just dims the entire image. Does SDR2020 clip above reference whereas 709 does not? My imaging looks fine so I suspect this is just some artifact of something I don't understand.


----------



## Surge2018

docrog said:


> I suggest that you take a look at p.8 in the current on-line RP manual. Although *receiver after RP *is the 1st one listed, it does *NOT* indicate "Preferred", only "Most Common Configuration". The only caveat mentioned for *receiver in front of* *RP* is to be certain that all video processing is disabled in the receiver (pre-pro). Current high end devices are fully capable of meeting that criteria.


It actually is preferred to have the video path not go through the audio AVR. This is taken directly from the Lumagen manual, Section 3:


> Lumagen recommends that the Radiance be used as the switching device for ease of operation, fastest video switching, and *best video quality*.


I also noticed an increase in image quality when I removed my Denon 8500H from the video chain, which makes complete sense.


----------



## scrowe

Posting for info only

For awhile now, I had a video freeze/stuttering issue when watching TV (Panasonic OLED) - Lumagen 18G OUT2 - Occurs randomly and unrepeatable on playback, maybe every 1-15m, audio unaffected
No issues when watching PJ (JVC N7) - Lumagen 18G OUT4
For a long time I thought it was caused by my Yamaha 3070 - Lumagen 18G OUT1 - used for Audio out only from Lumagen
When I upgraded to a Lyngdorf MP-40 Audio Processor - problem was still there
I'd tried troubleshooting here and there, but never found the time to get into the weeds, changed cables and so forth, isolated direct to TV as non-issue,etc.

Then I had my 4446 upgrade to 5348 and initially looked good on brief test.
However, as it turned out the issue was still there, but only occurs intermittently, and maybe every 30-40m. However this time when it happened, the Video froze for a second, and then an immediate Audio dropout, and you could see the Lyngdorf display re-stating the Audio format each time.

So I thought I'd tackle this in earnest, tried a 3m passive cable - same. So back to basics, unplugged everything from Lumagen, started with AppleTV in and TV and Audio out only. No issue.
Plugged in PJ as well as TV with just AppleTV . No Issue. But when I switched back to TV, the Issue was there.
Unplugged PJ - all good. Plugged in all other devices - All good. Plugged in PJ - Problem returned.

So it seemed to definitely be the JVC causing the issue. I looked at the JVC menus, and nothing obvious apart from ECO mode was ON. So I turned it off.

And watching TV no longer had the issue, even though JVC was off/standby in the other Output.
To be sure, I put ECO back on on the PJ, and problem cam straight back when watching TV.

So at least in my setup, the JVC N7 (firmware 3.08?) on HDMI2 with ECO On, was causing my dropout issues, when watching TV on the alternate output.

According to the Manual this ECO setting is only supposed to put the JVC in much deeper standby and turns off the Red Standby Light after awhile.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> Posting for info only
> 
> For awhile now, I had a video freeze/stuttering issue when watching TV (Panasonic OLED) - Lumagen 18G OUT2 - Occurs randomly and unrepeatable on playback, maybe every 1-15m, audio unaffected
> No issues when watching PJ (JVC N7) - Lumagen 18G OUT4
> For a long time I thought it was caused by my Yamaha 3070 - Lumagen 18G OUT1 - used for Audio out only from Lumagen
> When I upgraded to a Lyngdorf MP-40 Audio Processor - problem was still there
> I'd tried troubleshooting here and there, but never found the time to get into the weeds, changed cables and so forth, isolated direct to TV as non-issue,etc.
> 
> Then I had my 4446 upgrade to 5348 and initially looked good on brief test.
> However, as it turned out the issue was still there, but only occurs intermittently, and maybe every 30-40m. However this time when it happened, the Video froze for a second, and then an immediate Audio dropout, and you could see the Lyngdorf display re-stating the Audio format each time.
> 
> So I thought I'd tackle this in earnest, tried a 3m passive cable - same. So back to basics, unplugged everything from Lumagen, started with AppleTV in and TV and Audio out only. No issue.
> Plugged in PJ as well as TV with just AppleTV . No Issue. But when I switched back to TV, the Issue was there.
> Unplugged PJ - all good. Plugged in all other devices - All good. Plugged in PJ - Problem returned.
> 
> So it seemed to definitely be the JVC causing the issue. I looked at the JVC menus, and nothing obvious apart from ECO mode was ON. So I turned it off.
> 
> And watching TV no longer had the issue, even though JVC was off/standby in the other Output.
> To be sure, I put ECO back on on the PJ, and problem cam straight back when watching TV.
> 
> So at least in my setup, the JVC N7 (firmware 3.08?) on HDMI2 with ECO On, was causing my dropout issues, when watching TV on the alternate output.
> 
> According to the Manual this ECO setting is only supposed to put the JVC in much deeper standby and turns off the Red Standby Light after awhile.


Power management and HDMI cause all kinds of issues with devices where you have more than one display connected.

Any time a single sink device (display, AVR, etc) turns on or off its HDMI chip then the whole HDCP handshake happens again with the remaining devices I believe. So the changing state of one device you no longer care about will affect other devices.

Sony TVs have long been big offenders of this kind of thing. 2-5 minutes after you put them into standby they would turn off their HDMI inputs, which would always result in my projector glitching a couple of minutes into whatever I'd started to watch. Would drive me nuts. The solution there - with a dual output Denon AVR - was to make sure the AVR HDMI output to the device that was turned off was also turned off (so only the HDMI out you cared about was on). This stopped the AVR caring what that unused device was doing and stopped it affecting the remaining displays.

I don't know if you might also be able to make the Lumagen turn off the output in question when you're not using it (perhaps using a memory function, maybe linking it to Harmony activities if you use those). Though depending on which output it is, it might be more complicated than that (due to out 1 & 2 being on the same chip), and I'm not 100% sure the Lumagen really turns off any of the outputs that are "disabled" (I think last time I turned an output off with a display connected I still had some video visible on the "disabled" output, so I don't think it was really off). Might be worth a try though if you want the "Eco" mode "benefits".


----------



## scrowe

bobof said:


> Power management and HDMI cause all kinds of issues with devices where you have more than one display connected.
> 
> Any time a single sink device (display, AVR, etc) turns on or off its HDMI chip then the whole HDCP handshake happens again with the remaining devices I believe. So the changing state of one device you no longer care about will affect other devices.
> 
> Sony TVs have long been big offenders of this kind of thing. 2-5 minutes after you put them into standby they would turn off their HDMI inputs, which would always result in my projector glitching a couple of minutes into whatever I'd started to watch. Would drive me nuts. The solution there - with a dual output Denon AVR - was to make sure the AVR HDMI output to the device that was turned off was also turned off (so only the HDMI out you cared about was on). This stopped the AVR caring what that unused device was doing and stopped it affecting the remaining displays.
> 
> I don't know if you might also be able to make the Lumagen turn off the output in question when you're not using it (perhaps using a memory function, maybe linking it to Harmony activities if you use those). Though depending on which output it is, it might be more complicated than that (due to out 1 & 2 being on the same chip), and I'm not 100% sure the Lumagen really turns off any of the outputs that are "disabled" (I think last time I turned an output off with a display connected I still had some video visible on the "disabled" output, so I don't think it was really off). Might be worth a try though if you want the "Eco" mode "benefits".


I looked at the Lumagen output settings on the 5348 but it woukdnt let me set the ideal of only having the required output for the memory as V or B with the other AV output as off. I guess they are on the same chip on the 5348.


----------



## bobof

scrowe said:


> I looked at the Lumagen output settings on the 5348 but it woukdnt let me set the ideal of only having the required output for the memory as V or B with the other AV output as off. I guess they are on the same chip on the 5348.


1&2 are on the same chip, 3 is on a separate chip, if I recall correctly.
So I think you should be able to turn 3 off if you are using 1&2, but might not be able to turn 2 off if you are using audio out 1. (or something like that).


----------



## scrowe

bobof said:


> 1&2 are on the same chip, 3 is on a separate chip, if I recall correctly.
> So I think you should be able to turn 3 off if you are using 1&2, but might not be able to turn 2 off if you are using audio out 1. (or something like that).


Looked again and you’re right, output 3 can be set to N, with output 1 A and Output2 B (not V) - so I’ve set that to my TV Mems on all inputs. Next time I put the PJ on I‘ll set the ECO on and see if it allows.


----------



## Kris Deering

Except output 3 on the 5348 is the ideal output with the most benefit. It is the output you WANT to use for the absolute best performance from the 5348.


----------



## Technology3456

Any Lumagen owners ever use the Lumagen with a Sim2 Lumis? It's a bright projector with good contrast _by DLP standards _but seems to lack much wide color gamut coverage. I'm curious how that combination fares with Lumagen's dynamic tonemapping, given that there is no wide color gamut coverage for the Lumagen's dynamic tonemapping to tonemap P3 colors into in the first place? 

But really, just looking to learn how the combination works altogether, with all of Lumagen's image-improvement features, not just dtm.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Except output 3 on the 5348 is the ideal output with the most benefit. It is the output you WANT to use for the absolute best performance from the 5348.


So 1 for audio, 2 for a second display and 3 for your main display/projector? Thanks.


----------



## woofer

New Remote....


----------



## blake

woofer said:


> New Remote....


Nice ! If only it was back lit ! Maybe the next iteration. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark Burton

Got my tributaries cables. Has made zero difference to the audio dropouts as I suspected. 3rd film in, this time watching a DTSX soundtrack. Previous dropout I had was from an Atmos track - so nothing in common here.

I’ve tried everything that anyone has suggested on here and still getting the same results.

Bypassing the lumagen for audio stops any audio drops outs and has done since day 1.

Have no choice now but to bypass the audio, really disappointing as upgrading to the 5348 was supposed to give me better quality audio, which I now can’t use.


----------



## MOberhardt

Mark Burton said:


> Got my tributaries cables. Has made zero difference to the audio dropouts as I suspected. 3rd film in, this time watching a DTSX soundtrack. Previous dropout I had was from an Atmos track - so nothing in common here.
> 
> I’ve tried everything that anyone has suggested on here and still getting the same results.
> 
> Bypassing the lumagen for audio stops any audio drops outs and has done since day 1.


I'm sorry if you have answered this before, but any reason you can't just use you AVR for switching? Just have the Lumagen between AVR and projector? I've done it this way from day 1 and have ZERO regrets on it. Especially as it also means I can put it with the projector...


----------



## Mark Burton

MOberhardt said:


> I'm sorry if you have answered this before, but any reason you can't just use you AVR for switching? Just have the Lumagen between AVR and projector? I've done it this way from day 1 and have ZERO regrets on it. Especially as it also means I can put it with the projector...


I have a trinnov which takes an age to boot up, using the trinnov for switching isn’t as good for the automation as the lumagen. Say for example I want to watch cable, I just hit the “watch cable activity” and all switching is done correctly. By going through the trinnov this doesn’t work as it take too long to load so will only switch to the “preset” input.

I also do notice a slight drop in PQ going this way, although that may be just imagining things.

I did used to wire it up through my old marantz 8805 this way and never had any issues, however, I don’t think the hdmi board on the trinnov is as good as the marantz.

Doing it this way wouldn’t give me the low jitter benefits of the 5348 anyway, so the way I’m now doing it (using the audio out option on my zappiti pro) is in effect doing the same job, just with a video only feed direct into the lumagen for a supposed cleaner signal.


----------



## scrowe

scrowe said:


> Looked again and you’re right, output 3 can be set to N, with output 1 A and Output2 B (not V) - so I’ve set that to my TV Mems on all inputs. Next time I put the PJ on I‘ll set the ECO on and see if it allows.


But it doesn't solve the problem, unfortunately. With ECO on on the PJ, but its Output 3 disabled in Lumagen settings, it sitll interfering when watching TV on Output 2.


----------



## woofer

Mark Burton said:


> Got my tributaries cables. Has made zero difference to the audio dropouts as I suspected. 3rd film in, this time watching a DTSX soundtrack. Previous dropout I had was from an Atmos track - so nothing in common here.
> 
> I’ve tried everything that anyone has suggested on here and still getting the same results.
> 
> Bypassing the lumagen for audio stops any audio drops outs and has done since day 1.
> 
> Have no choice now but to bypass the audio, really disappointing as upgrading to the 5348 was supposed to give me better quality audio, which I now can’t use.


I have had absolutely Zero issues with Audio from my 5348.... No dropouts our glitches of any kind..... Using 5mtr WireWorld Silver Starlight 7 cables.

My chain is..... HDMI ( Audio/Video) out from Oppo 205 to 5348 ...... Audio out from 5348 to NAD M17v2 and Video out from 5348 to Z1/RS4500


----------



## Mark Burton

woofer said:


> I have had absolutely Zero issues with Audio from my 5348.... No dropouts our glitches of any kind..... Using 5mtr WireWorld Silver Starlight 7 cables.
> 
> My chain is..... HDMI ( Audio/Video) out from Oppo 205 to 5348 ...... Audio out from 5348 to NAD M17v2 and Video out from 5348 to Z1/RS4500


So many different variations in the chain is the issue, impossible to do a direct comparison with someone else unless they have identical kit. 

I’m not the only one with the same issue though (plenty of us on here) and all have reported no drop outs when removing the lumagen out of the audio chain, so its clearly related to this.

Whether it’s a compatibility issue I don’t know, but it’s certainly annoying. 😒


----------



## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> Except output 3 on the 5348 is the ideal output with the most benefit. It is the output you WANT to use for the absolute best performance from the 5348.


What do you suggest then? Always change the cable to the output 3 when watching TV or Projector... Doesn't sound really wise. The suggestion above was to use output 3 for projector and output 2 for tv.


----------



## jqmn

Mark Burton said:


> So many different variations in the chain is the issue, impossible to do a direct comparison with someone else unless they have identical kit.
> 
> I’m not the only one with the same issue though (plenty of us on here) and all have reported no drop outs when removing the lumagen out of the audio chain, so its clearly related to this.
> 
> Whether it’s a compatibility issue I don’t know, but it’s certainly annoying. 😒


I think I may have mentioned-- before I had the A32 and Lumagen I never had audio drops and I was using a dual prepro stack. Got these devices and the drops started. I initially used the 32 as the switch. I finally wound up splitting with Oppo A to 32 and V to Lumagen. This has reduce the drops but every once in a while one still happens. My "automatic" 30 minute-in drop has pretty much gone away. I have also noted that in the startup sequence of all devices I have to delay each device from the prior quite a bit or I get blank screens and no audio or blank screens and audio and it is very hard to recover from this. This latter problem is often, not always, solved by toggling inputs on the Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

I have a 5348, SDP75 (AL32), Kscape, Oppo and ATV. I probably get an audio drop once a week at best, and it is always a DTS track, which is a known issue with Trinnov. 2 meter Tributaries from sources to Lumagen and I believe a 4 or 5 meter from Lumagen to SDP. I was getting frequent drops before that but Trinnov did a beta update to my HDMI board that seems to have resolved that.

Just recently had another client that was chiming in here about drop outs being an issue. He changed his cable out and it seems to be solved. He was also on a really old firmware as well, so not sure if related.


----------



## dlinsley

Mark Burton said:


> Whether it’s a compatibility issue I don’t know, but it’s certainly annoying


Mark, I don't recall if you already did this, but have Trinnov been able to check any logs to see if there are any correlating events on the HDMI inputs (like resyncs) that would help Lumagen debug?


----------



## Erod

Because of frequent micro stuttering on some Roku content, I researched this thread and ultimately turned on GenLock and frame-rate match. I created a MemA and MemB to turn it on and off as needed, per instructions here.

However, I've noticed that I can't turn on frame-rate matching for "B" without it also turning on for the other memory spots. Am I doing something wrong? The GenLock change will stay memory-spot specific, but the frame rate is universal.

Seems to be helping with the micro stuttering with my initial viewing. Kris originally gave me codes to output everything on the Roku at 59.xxx, but I guess some content is at 60 Hz, which causes the stuttering. Very annoying to watch. Making these two adjustments helped.

Also, is there any trade-off in doing this from a PQ standpoint?


----------



## Mark Burton

dlinsley said:


> Mark, I don't recall if you already did this, but have Trinnov been able to check any logs to see if there are any correlating events on the HDMI inputs (like resyncs) that would help Lumagen debug?


Trinnov have been trying to help it but can’t see anything from the processor end, it’s not re-syncing as I can’t hear any clicks, etc and it’s happening too quickly to be this.


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> I have a 5348, SDP75 (AL32), Kscape, Oppo and ATV. I probably get an audio drop once a week at best, and it is always a DTS track, which is a known issue with Trinnov. 2 meter Tributaries from sources to Lumagen and I believe a 4 or 5 meter from Lumagen to SDP. I was getting frequent drops before that but Trinnov did a beta update to my HDMI board that seems to have resolved that.
> 
> Just recently had another client that was chiming in here about drop outs being an issue. He changed his cable out and it seems to be solved. He was also on a really old firmware as well, so not sure if related.


I’m on the latest firmware for both the software and hdmi. Antoine has confirmed, this was done right at the start of my issues and I checked again recently, although I have now asked about the beta firmware which I’m pretty sure I’m already on anyway.

It’s not the dts bug, I don’t actually suffer from this.

3m tributaries cable being used.


----------



## asharma

Erod said:


> Because of frequent micro stuttering on some Roku content, I researched this thread and ultimately turned on GenLock and frame-rate match. I created a MemA and MemB to turn it on and off as needed, per instructions here.
> 
> However, I've noticed that I can't turn on frame-rate matching for "B" without it also turning on for the other memory spots. Am I doing something wrong? The GenLock change will stay memory-spot specific, but the frame rate is universal.
> 
> Seems to be helping with the micro stuttering with my initial viewing. Kris originally gave me codes to output everything on the Roku at 59.xxx, but I guess some content is at 60 Hz, which causes the stuttering. Very annoying to watch. Making these two adjustments helped.
> 
> Also, is there any trade-off in doing this from a PQ standpoint?


Is micro stuttering where the video seems to be slightly “shimmering” or “jittery”…? I’ve seen this a few times, very inconsistently…What causes it? Anything to do with lip sync delay? Thanks…


----------



## fatherom

Mark Burton said:


> So many different variations in the chain is the issue, impossible to do a direct comparison with someone else unless they have identical kit.


I have a simple Denon receiver (not a Trinnov) and I get the drop outs too. I wonder, too, if two people had identical gear, if they would both experience the same issues (variances within different instances of the same device, e.g.)


----------



## ht guy

McIntosh pre/pro user here.
Was using short non-Tributaries (but Certified) cables.
Remote turns on everything at once - MX160, NX7, 5348 & Oppo (Other than MX-160 turns on amps with built-in delay via trigger.) If needed, I wake ATV from sleep for use after everything is on.
ATV and Oppo have always worked fine (never had an audio drop-out.)
Added the Tributaries, out of abundance of caution after hearing of possible drop-outs issues with shorter cables.
Still, zero issues.
fwiw.


----------



## jrp

Working on post. Weird stuff happened to this one...


----------



## jrp

picree:

I have attached the Radiance Pro setup slide set. It is overdue for an update, but has the information needed to set black level and then white level.

You should calibrate black and white levels in the format you are using. So if you plan to output SDR709 as SDR2020 using the Pro auto-convert, set the output Colorspace = SDR2020 first. For setting contrast and black you can leave Auto-convert on. I do this using CMS0 since it is the default for SDR content.

Then for CMS1 when outputting "HDR in a SDR container" (i.e. CMS1.Corlorspace = SDR2020), copy the White and Black settings from CMS0 to CMS1. This is because it is difficult to get the correct white level if the input is HDR since white is 10000 nits and DTM adjusts the transfer function and HDR white is clipped well before you reach 10000 nits. However, since you are outputting HDR in a SDR container the White level should be the same for SDR and HDR source (for common cases).

There is debate as to whether you need above-white or not for SDR content. The range above-white is specified for unintentional excursions due to calculations that exceed white. Producers are not supposed to intentionally have above white levels. I understand some does, but well mastered content does not. Some argue that you should show up to level 254 (level 235 is White) so there is no clipping even if content exceeds white up to the maximum digital level. I disagree.

I do like to have just a bit of headroom above white. However, to me seeing steps all the way to 254 only reduces you maximum light output. For projectors I find I prefer to have the slight extra brightness rather than see steps up to 254. For TVs, if you have enough brightness you might choose to show up to 254.

So in response to your question of if you should see bars above White, and that reducing contrast does not show them:

If contrast change in the projector does not show the above white bars on Contrast1, it means there is clipping in the video pipeline in the projector. Note this is for SDR input. For HDR input with DTM on, nothing above white gets through.

With an SDR input (CMS0) you can start to show the 104% bars in Contrast 1 by reducing the White Level in the Pro until you see them. This works because the Pro is reducing the digital values so you can get below the clipping threshold in the projector.

You have to decide if you want to see above White or not. I think the best way to make sure you are not clipping at white is to check white for dE versus D65. If you do not have a color probe, look at the 96% bar, the 100% background, and the 104% bar. At the very least the 96% bar and 100% background should look the same color and differ only in intensity. I also like to check that the 104% bar and the 100% background look the same color. If they are the same color and only have a different intensity it is a good indicator none of the color channels (Red, Green, Blue) are clipping.

If you see a difference in color between 95% and 100% (or 104% and 100%), you can reduce the White Level using the Pro's White level control until they look the same color. This reduces the level until the offending channel is below its clipping threshold.


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## aguy

Great set of slides Jim 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrp

scrowe, and anyone with a TV and a projector (or two displays):

We see behavior from some projectors and some TVs that I refer to as "Zombie mode." This is essentially the same issue I have discussed for source devices.

The issue is these devices still have some activity on the HDMI ports when they are in standby. This activity generates interrupts in the Pro. Interrupts are the highest priority in the Radiance Pro software. The problem is the Zombie device starts the connection but is not awake enough to complete the HDMI connection. And so it just repeats, 

If the Zombie device generates enough activity, and therefore lots of interrupts, it can overwhelm the Radiance Pro microprocessor and cause a video stutter. Any external device should only need to have a very few interrupts to complete the HDMI connection, including HDCP. Many thousands of interrupts should not happen, but the Zombie device does just that.

If you have two displays, and you see a frame stutter (assuming the input and output rate match), pull wall power from the projector if you are watching the TV, or vice versa. This will eliminate the half-awake Zombie activity from the TV/projector in standby. If this eliminates the stutter, then it is a Zombie device. And of course if the stutter still happens there is something else afoot.


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## SJHT

If you turn off the output for a particular memory, does that make the Pro completely ignore? If not, maybe it should? Thanks. SJ


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## jrp

SJHT said:


> If you turn off the output for a particular memory, does that make the Pro completely ignore? If not, maybe it should? Thanks. SJ


Unfortunately the Pro cannot completely ignore the input or output chips. They are autonomous and still see the device they are connected to. I do not think we can turn off their interrupts (but am not certain). Since the interrupt bus is shared, the interrupt input needs to remain active since other chips still need it.

Patrick has put in code to try to detect too many interrupts and start ignoring those interrupts. Even so this takes time, and could be prone to ignoring valid interrupts when the Zombie device wakes up completely.

The best option is to remove wall power from the errant device by having the control system switch off power to that device. In the case of the output side we have had dealers use two-to-one HDMI switch and switch that device to its unused input when the client wants to have the Zombie device ignored. This could work on the input side as well.


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## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Unfortunately the Pro cannot completely ignore the input or output chips. They are autonomous and still see the device they are connected to. I do not think we can turn off their interrupts (but am not certain). Since the interrupt bus is shared, the interrupt input needs to remain active since other chips still need it.
> 
> Patrick has put in code to try to detect too many interrupts and start ignoring those interrupts. Even so this takes time, and could be prone to ignoring valid interrupts when the Zombie device wakes up completely.
> 
> The best option is to remove wall power from the errant device by having the control system switch off power to that device. In the case of the output side we have had dealers use two-to-one HDMI switch and switch that device to its unused input when the client wants to have the Zombie device ignored. This could work on the input side as well.


This issue of a zombie source is a big problem for set top boxes, such as a Tivo DVR, for instance, which is essentially always recording, even when in standby mode. In standby mode the Tivo is not sending any picture to the display, but may still be sending interrupts. Is that something you can determine?


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## Mark Burton

Tributaries cables really aren’t working for me. 3 films in a row with an audio dropout, which now includes appletv which is never had previously.

Really frustrated with it all to be honest.

Going to send the cables back and try some 5m monoprice cables, if they don’t work I will be wiring everything up through my trinnov and using it in pass through mode (which is what trinnov have emphatically recommended!!), thus negating any benefit from the 5348 audio signal 😢


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## SJHT

Mark Burton said:


> Tributaries cables really aren’t working for me. 3 films in a row with an audio dropout, which now includes appletv which is never had previously.
> 
> Really frustrated with it all to be honest.
> 
> Going to send the cables back and try some 5m monoprice cables, if they don’t work I will be wiring everything up through my trinnov and using it in pass through mode (which is what trinnov have emphatically recommended!!), thus negating any benefit from the 5348 audio signal 😢


@Kris Deering suggested he was running a beta HDMI feature for his Altitude. Do you have this? We watched Space Jam last night on HBO Max and had a dropout about 20-30 minutes into the movie but nothing after. I also have a 5348 and Alt 32. Using 3m tributary cables…. I have switched my projector to Output 3 (it was on 2) based upon forum feedback. Not sure it will help, but…. I would think Lumagen Pro and Altitudes are a common combo. Have one occasionally on Kaleidescape but rare and might be DTS related. SJ


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## Mark Burton

SJHT said:


> @Kris Deering suggested he was running a beta HDMI feature for his Altitude. Do you have this? We watched Space Jam last night on HBO Max and had a dropout about 20-30 minutes into the movie but nothing after. I also have a 5348 and Alt 32. Using 3m tributary cables…. I have switched my projector to Output 3 (it was on 2) based upon forum feedback. Not sure it will help, but…. I would think Lumagen Pro and Altitudes are a common combo. Have one occasionally on Kaleidescape but rare and might be DTS related. SJ


I won’t reply exactly what trinnov have said to the problems, but it safe to say they think it’s lumagen related. I’m not sure if it’s lumagen or trinnov tbh, but I know both will say the other. The only way for me to really know if to take the lumagen completely of the chain, which I’m extremely reluctant to do.

I’m on the very latest firmware, I was actually one of the first to be put on the beta firmware a while back.


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## sjschaff

I too am using a 5348 with Trinnov Altitude 16 with video 3 to JVC RS3000, and audio to HDMI 1 of Trinnov. Using 10m Vega active Tributaries from Lumagen to JVC, 3m Tributaries from all sources to 5348 as well as from the 5348 to the Trinnov. Also, set the output from default to 8 using Jim's recommended menu command. I've had some dropouts as well as occasional slight jerky motion with sources. However, the latter can be blamed on the source material rather anything else, as I've yet to replicate it in the same way I can use replay to "fix" audio dropouts and prove they don't arise from the source. Thinking of testing an active Ruipro from the 5348 to the Trinnov to see if anything changes. Wish I had analytical tools to watch what's passing from point to point.


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## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> I too am using a 5348 with Trinnov Altitude 16 with video 3 to JVC RS3000, and audio to HDMI 1 of Trinnov. Using 10m Vega active Tributaries from Lumagen to JVC, 3m Tributaries from all sources to 5348 as well as from the 5348 to the Trinnov. Also, set the output from default to 8 using Jim's recommended menu command. I've had some dropouts as well as occasional slight jerky motion with sources. However, the latter can be blamed on the source material rather anything else, as I've yet to replicate it in the same way I can use replay to "fix" audio dropouts and prove they don't arise from the source. Thinking of testing an active Ruipro from the 5348 to the Trinnov to see if anything changes. Wish I had analytical tools to watch what's passing from point to point.


Sounds identical to me mate


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## CP850-CLED

These Lumagen / Trinnov complications have gotten so much worse after the pandemic in 2019 my best Trinnov/Alcons system had no issue.


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## aguy

Coronavirus has mutated to infect hdmi cables now 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fatherom

CP850-CLED said:


> These Lumagen / Trinnov complications have gotten so much worse after the pandemic in 2019 my best Trinnov/Alcons system had no issue.


The audio drop outs can happen with non-Trinnov devices as well.


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## CP850-CLED

With Marantz/D too? Because the Marantz 8805a is the most reliable HDMI a/v processor on the planet (and not bad with good speakers and amps), in fact, Jim should set up a second test system in his theater when he is ready for HDMI 2.1. If he gets dropouts with the Marantz, back to the drawing board. Not to mention that these units use the next generation DSU upmixer that smokes Neural-x and Auromatic.


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## docrog

CP850-CLED said:


> With Marantz/D too? Because the Marantz 8805a is the most reliable HDMI a/v processor on the planet (and not bad with good speakers and amps), in fact, Jim should set up a second test system in his theater when he is ready for HDMI 2.1. If he gets dropouts with the Marantz, back to the drawing board. Not to mention that these units use the *next generation DSU upmixer* that smokes Neural-x and Auromatic.


*Next generation DSU upmixer*??? Is there any difference between what's on board the Marantz 8805a and the (firmware current) Denon X6700H??? By what criteria does it "smoke" DTS:X Pro as an upmixer of legacy content??


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## CP850-CLED

Dts-x pro is too top-heavy and can sound cacophonous overhead, if you have full range robust tops, unlike the previous DSU which was garbage, the new DSU uses the widths and appears to have great steering and simply sounds the most natural in what it sends to the tops, not to mention that it works great on stereo upmixing. I have a full range 5+wides.0.4 and DSU just rocks in this setup. Understand that since 2013. I have invested 60k on Kaleidescape content and 25+ in the best multichannel music just to find demo material for systems 500k to 2 mil. that I do from time to time The best performing Atmos Studios Dolby Atmos Premier were taken to the next level thanks to my having Dolby include Alcons in their Atmos Cinema Designer program. So I dabble in immersion in a very serious fashion. The new DSU in my opinion has the potential to make neural-x and auromatic irrelevant. Trinnov should add it asap. However, if you do not have width channels I understand your comment.


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## Technology3456

CP850-CLED said:


> Dts-x pro is too top-heavy and can sound cacophonous overhead, if you have full range robust tops, unlike the previous DSU which was garbage, the new DSU uses the widths and appears to have great steering and simply sounds the most natural in what it sends to the tops, not to mention that it works great on stereo upmixing. I have a full range 5+wides.0.4 and DSU just rocks in this setup. Understand that since 2013. I have invested 60k on Kaletdescape content and 25+ in the best multichannel music just to find demo material for systems 500k to 2 mil. that I do from time to time The new DSU in my opinion has the potential to make neural-x and auromatic irrelevant. Trinnov should add it asap.


If it's an improvement like you say, then hopefully Denon adds it with firmware ASAP. And hopefully my 2018 Denon will get that firmware.  Otherwise maybe that's another reason to go another direction.


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## bjorg

I finally got back to working on my RadiantPi project to automate some functionality in my system. I'm running into some questions.

1) I'm running the latest firmware (062721) and the data I'm getting back with the new Fullv4 format does not match the docs. Supposedly, one new number was added at the end of the Fullv4 format that is the detected input aspect. However, I found 2 numbers appended. It looks like the second one is the input aspect ratio (yellow). Anyone have an idea what the other number is (blue)?
!I24,1,023,2160,0,0,178,220,-,0,000a,1,0,023,2160,178,2,1,p,P,05,05,178,220

2) As before, when I send either ZQI23 or ZQI24 over RS-232, it reports back the current mode as expected. However, when I switch content (play new movie, stop movie, etc.), the RadiancePro freezes up and has to be restarted. I can reproduce it on 2 different units using 2 different ways to send the RS-232 command. The ZQI22 command does not have this issue. If anyone has the patience/skills to reproduce, I'd love to hear from you before I reach out to Jim. The repro steps are fairly simple: 

open RS-232 port
send ZQI23
=> you will get the the current mode info
now switch video modes by starting/stopping a movie
=> video output on unit freezes until reboot

3) I use the v4 information to scale the image to suit my taste. To date, I'd have been manually selecting one of the memories for this (e.g. MEMA). (At this point, I suspect you may know where this is going!) The problem that I'm running into is that I can't override whatever the Raspberry-Pi has identified, because as soon as I select another memory, it immediately gets notified and sets it back again. There is a _Sticky Aspect Ratio_ button on the remote, but I haven't found a permanent setting for it or an RS-232 command. Any suggestions?


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## blake

Deleted


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## aguy

bjorg said:


> I finally got back to working on my RadiantPi project to automate some functionality in my system. I'm running into some questions.
> 
> 1) I'm running the latest firmware (062721) and the data I'm getting back with the new Fullv4 format does not match the docs. Supposedly, one new number was added at the end of the Fullv4 format that is the detected input aspect. However, I found 2 numbers appended. It looks like the second one is the input aspect ratio (yellow). Anyone have an idea what the other number is (blue)?
> !I24,1,023,2160,0,0,178,220,-,0,000a,1,0,023,2160,178,2,1,p,P,05,05,178,220
> 
> 2) As before, when I send either ZQI23 or ZQI24 over RS-232, it reports back the current mode as expected. However, when I switch content (play new movie, stop movie, etc.), the RadiancePro freezes up and has to be restarted. I can reproduce it on 2 different units using 2 different ways to send the RS-232 command. The ZQI22 command does not have this issue. If anyone has the patience/skills to reproduce, I'd love to hear from you before I reach out to Jim. The repro steps are fairly simple:
> 
> open RS-232 port
> send ZQI23
> => you will get the the current mode info
> now switch video modes by starting/stopping a movie
> => video output on unit freezes until reboot
> 
> 3) I use the v4 information to scale the image to suit my taste. To date, I'd have been manually selecting one of the memories for this (e.g. MEMA). (At this point, I suspect you may know where this is going!) The problem that I'm running into is that I can't override whatever the Raspberry-Pi has identified, because as soon as I select another memory, it immediately gets notified and sets it back again. There is a _Sticky Aspect Ratio_ button on the remote, but I haven't found a permanent setting for it or an RS-232 command. Any suggestions?


I’ve been working on an updated crestron driver so I’ve been using those rs232 commands too. 

I’ve also had my radiance pro freeze up after querying it with ZQI24 but I hadn’t worked out exactly the conditions to reproduce the locking up. The only thing that has fixed it has been a complete hard reboot by pulling the power cord. I haven’t yet mentioned it to Jim whom I’ve been emailing about the crestron driver. 

As to your question about the 2 extra fields in ZQI24. As far as I can determine the 178 is the detected input raster aspect ratio. And the last number is the detected input aspect ratio 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aguy

@bjorg ; also there is an updated tip on the lumagen website with the new rs232 commands. There are now commands for enable and disable auto aspect ratio. Maybe they are what you’re looking for 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

CP850-CLED said:


> Dts-x pro is too top-heavy and can sound cacophonous overhead, if you have full range robust tops, unlike the previous DSU which was garbage, the new DSU uses the widths and appears to have great steering and simply sounds the most natural in what it sends to the tops, not to mention that it works great on stereo upmixing. I have a full range 5+wides.0.4 and DSU just rocks in this setup. Understand that since 2013. I have invested 60k on Kaleidescape content and 25+ in the best multichannel music just to find demo material for systems 500k to 2 mil. that I do from time to time The best performing Atmos Studios Dolby Atmos Premier were taken to the next level thanks to my having Dolby include Alcons in their Atmos Cinema Designer program. So I dabble in immersion in a very serious fashion. The new DSU in my opinion has the potential to make neural-x and auromatic irrelevant. Trinnov should add it asap. *However, if you do not have width channels I understand your comment.*


Thanks for your reply. I don't have "wides" or "VOG" speakers in my 7.6 configuration due to physical constraints of my room. I have found that, despite the lack of support for top middles, Auro 3D (7.4) has subjectively been optimal for upmixing 2 channel or SACD music. I haven't yet tried listening in DSU with "center spread" enabled, but I'll certainly give that a go. Honestly, I was reluctant to part with my Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR, switching to Denon in 2020 because of support for Auro 3D and DTS:X Pro (DSU & Pro supporting top middles). Since the late 1980s release of their initial stand alone DSP unit, I had been able to further configure multiple Yamaha music DSP parameters within their highly accurate venue specific chamber music/orchestral halls and jazz locations to an almost "you are there" listening environment. Despite Audyssey being more accurate than YPAO, I'd return to Yamaha in a heart beat once they provide support for 7.6 processed channels. Unfortunately, that's apparently still *NOT* present in their (reportedly) soon to be released 2021 models.


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## bjorg

aguy said:


> @bjorg ; also there is an updated tip on the lumagen website with the new rs232 commands. There are now commands for enable and disable auto aspect ratio. Maybe they are what you’re looking for


I disabled it in the menu since it was causing a short frame hiccup when it kicks in. And I can confirm that despite it being off, the mode change with Fullv4 still reports it correctly, but without the hiccup.

However, it keeps reporting the last auto-detected AR in the OSD whenever it pops-up (in my case "2.20). I have no idea how to get rid of it! 😂


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## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> I won’t reply exactly what Trinnov have said to the problems, but it safe to say they think it’s lumagen related. I’m not sure if it’s lumagen or Trinnov tbh, but I know both will say the other. The only way for me to really know if to take the lumagen completely of the chain, which I’m extremely reluctant to do.
> 
> I’m on the very latest firmware, I was actually one of the first to be put on the beta firmware a while back.


First let me say I really like the Trinnov Altitude16 in our Lumagen Demo Theater. It produces great sound and I have had just two audio dropouts in the past 6 to 9 months. These were both DTS HD audio, for which there is a known issue in the Trinnov. Note: I am told Trinnov has a Beta that improves the DTS HD issue, but sounds like more work is needed before they release it as a public release.

That said, I have two concrete cases of dealers changing away from Trinnov and eliminating audio dropouts.

One dealer who was having audio dropouts using the Pro to Trinnov combination no matter what he tried. This applied to his demo system, and his customer's systems. The dealer changed, _only_, the audio processor to a Storm Audio (which has the new Storm Audio HDMI switch board), and he said this completely eliminated his audio dropouts. This dealer said he then switched to selling Storm Audio and none of these Pro+Storm systems have audio dropouts using the Pro output to Storm Audio input combination.

I have another dealer who changed from a Trinnov to a different brand audio processor. This dealer also eliminated audio dropouts with only this change. Sorry, I do not recall the brand of the replacement audio processor.

We have a number of audio processor brands/models that never have dropouts (that I know of) using the Pro output to audio-processor for audio when using an appropriate HDMI cable. I listed some of these in an earlier post.

While there is an small chance a specific Radiance Pro has a I/O chip that has an issue which could be part of a dropout, it is clear these reported audio dropouts are _not_ caused by the Radiance Pro.


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## bjorg

I was about to post something similar. I use an RP with a Trinnov 48 (audio dropouts) and a Denon AVR-X2600H (no dropouts). To make matters worse, the Denon system uses cheap HDMI cables that are ultra short to the Apple TV, because the system is a bit space compromised. I've never had an issue with the Denon and RP!


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## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> it is clear these reported audio dropouts are _not_ caused by the Radiance Pro.


Hi,

In all of the recent posts, many users are seeing audio drop outs, with lots of different AVR’s, I have Denon, I had 4 users who have Denons message me directly to say take the lumagen out of the audio chain and use the AVR as the switch. All have given up after trying to fix the issue with cable changes. But other users have Trinnov, and others. 

Can you explain why in ALL of the cases, and there are many, the problems only occur with the Lumagen in the chain and don’t occur with the sources direct into the AVR???

What is it about AppleTV, Blu-ray players, media players, TV cable boxes that work with these AVR’s without issue, why is it only a problem with lumagen ??

I don’t know if you read the full posts when people have issues, but those who have reported issues with Trinnov have stated over and over that it’s occurring on all tracks not just DTS. Yet you’re saying it’s clearly not a Lumagen issue.

There is so clearly a problem that needs to be dealt with here.

Blaming others isn’t helping


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## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> First let me say I really like the Trinnov Altitude16 in our Lumagen Demo Theater. It produces great sound and I have had just two audio dropouts in the past 6 to 9 months. These were both DTS HD audio, for which there is a known issue in the Trinnov. Note: I am told Trinnov has a Beta that improves the DTS HD issue, but sounds like more work is needed before they release it as a public release.
> 
> That said, I have two concrete cases of dealers changing away from Trinnov and eliminating audio dropouts.
> 
> One dealer who was having audio dropouts using the Pro to Trinnov combination no matter what he tried. This applied to his demo system, and his customer's systems. The dealer changed, _only_, the audio processor to a Storm Audio (which has the new Storm Audio HDMI switch board), and he said this completely eliminated his audio dropouts. This dealer said he then switched to selling Storm Audio and none of these Pro+Storm systems have audio dropouts using the Pro output to Storm Audio input combination.
> 
> I have another dealer who changed from a Trinnov to a different brand audio processor. This dealer also eliminated audio dropouts with only this change. Sorry, I do not recall the brand of the replacement audio processor.
> 
> We have a number of audio processor brands/models that never have dropouts (that I know of) using the Pro output to audio-processor for audio when using an appropriate HDMI cable. I listed some of these in an earlier post.
> 
> While there is an small chance a specific Radiance Pro has a I/O chip that has an issue which could be part of a dropout, it is clear these reported audio dropouts are _not_ caused by the Radiance Pro.


I’m going to take the RP out of my chain and test it this week. If it’s still doing it, it’s clearly not a RP issue. If it stops, then it clearly is a compatibility issue between the RP and the altitude.


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## sjschaff

Interesting results all round. Over the past years I've used an Lumagen Radiance Pro 444x to an Anthem D2V audio processor. I didn't start having issues with any dropouts until very early this year. I went as far as to replace my source, an Nvidia Shield TV, with a Zappiti, but still had occasional audio dropouts. Even had a rare one on playback of a saved Tivo sourced show. Eventually I moved up to the 5348 but still experienced dropouts on occasion. And most recently put in the Trinnov for the Anthem D2V.

And it never seems to be source related (rewind and playback on any sources would suggest the media was OK). Have tried numerous cables, with the latest 3 meter Tributaries for sources and the active Tributaries to the JVC RS3000, as well as passive 3 meter Tributaries from Lumagen to Trinnov Altitude 16 (latest CYP HDMI board). Still the dropouts seem to pop up, though quite irregularly. Next move for me is to swap the Tributaries passive cable from the Lumagen to the Trinnov for a 10 meter active Ruipro. I know...grasping at straws. After that I'll see if someone's got a Fox & Hound tester who can venture out and troubleshoot.


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## Karl Maga

I’m reminded of a song lyric “the loudest live to trample on the least” (Don Henley - Workin It).

Yet, I’ve had two Lumagen RP 4xxx series, and two Marantz surround processors, with passive HDMI cables from Monoprice between all sources which I connect directly to the Lumagen.

*No dropouts, ever.

EDIT: *As has been pointed out, I have in the past mentioned occasional dropouts, and that directly contradicts my comment above. While this memory lapse is concerning to me, the main point is that I am not a reliable observer.


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## garyolearysteele

sjschaff said:


> Interesting results all round. Over the past years I've used an Lumagen Radiance Pro 444x to an Anthem D2V audio processor. I didn't start having issues with any dropouts until very early this year. I went as far as to replace my source, an Nvidia Shield TV, with a Zappiti, but still had occasional audio dropouts. Even had a rare one on playback of a saved Tivo sourced show. Eventually I moved up to the 5348 but still experienced dropouts on occasion. And most recently put in the Trinnov for the Anthem D2V.
> 
> And it never seems to be source related (rewind and playback on any sources would suggest the media was OK). Have tried numerous cables, with the latest 3 meter Tributaries for sources and the active Tributaries to the JVC RS3000, as well as passive 3 meter Tributaries from Lumagen to Trinnov Altitude 16 (latest CYP HDMI board). Still the dropouts seem to pop up, though quite irregularly. Next move for me is to swap the Tributaries passive cable from the Lumagen to the Trinnov for a 10 meter active Ruipro. I know...grasping at straws. After that I'll see if someone's got a Fox & Hound tester who can venture out and troubleshoot.


It would be good if we could get some more data on the drop outs when they happen, not sure if the Fox and Hound kit can do that? Thought it was more of a cable tester?

Perhaps the lumagen could log HDMI events (@jrp ?), I’m not sure what they have access to in software or even if the typical drop out triggers a measurable event. It would be good for a start to know which connection had an issue, or anything else that occurred at the time of the drop out. Even a pop up to say HDMI connection dropped or a HDCP handshake was performed etc. I appreciate its not going to be the immediate answer, but more data might be a good thing…. Even if it’s just to see if it’s the same each time.

I’ve followed every bit of advice I can on here and from lumagen support (except replacing my Arcam AVR) and nothing has worked. I could open a certified high speed cable exhibit I have so many now, from 2m to 7.6m. I’ve upgraded the RP from a 4x to a 5x… The only thing that works is taking the lumagen out, then my ATV, PS5, XBox, SkyQ, Zappiti and Blu Ray all have no drop outs, but when it’s in the chain they all do.

I primarily installed the lumagen for DTM, not for audio, so my ultimate plan is to try find alternative routes for the audio to bypass it, it’s a shame since would be nice to benefit from the low jitter of the 5x but not when sound can drop out at any moment. 

It seems there is enough people with the same issue they maybe there is a solution to be found 🤞


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## sjschaff

Well this reminds me of how I used to monitor TCP/IP on Ethernet in the 70's - using a packet sniffer to record all data packets in real time with "time stamps". But that only showed one piece of the puzzle. The end points, and how each system along the way "saw" and used the packets varied. Some were more "forgiving" than others in terms of spec. Quite a challenge to figure out where the fault lay.


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## KorbenDallas2021

Karl Maga said:


> I’m reminded of a song lyric “the loudest live to trample on the least” (Don Henley - Workin It).
> 
> Yet, I’ve had two Lumagen RP 4xxx series, and two Marantz surround processors, with passive HDMI cables from Monoprice between all sources which I connect directly to the Lumagen.
> 
> *No dropouts, ever.*


This place is a strange one, folk come here looking to find solutions to a problem and half the replies are people saying they don’t have the same problem.

also this is you saying you have audio drop outs with your Lumagen?, honestly I don’t get it, being a fanboy isn’t helping people solve the problem

















The drop outs probably don’t matter that much to you but to others they do.


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## garyolearysteele

sjschaff said:


> Well this reminds me of how I used to monitor TCP/IP on Ethernet in the 70's - using a packet sniffer to record all data packets in real time with "time stamps". But that only showed one piece of the puzzle. The end points, and how each system along the way "saw" and used the packets varied. Some were more "forgiving" than others in terms of spec. Quite a challenge to figure out where the fault lay.


I know what you’re saying, done similar myself but 15 years later😀 always thank my original mentor for teaching me as a junior to diagnose issues with a packet sniffer and understand what’s really happening rather than relying on the symptom or the error messages, stood me in good stead.. no idea what is possible in terms of monitoring from the Hdmi Chips, but anything might just give that extra bit of insight


----------



## jrp

I will try again:

If the Radiance Pro corrupted audio, the corruption would happen with any audio processor on its output. That audio dropouts cease when, only, the audio processor is changed means the issues were not caused by the Radiance Pro. I mentioned the two cases I recalled the details of, but there are a number of other cases where just changing the audio processor eliminated audio dropouts. For some of these I actually asked the installing dealer to test with a different audio processor and they confirmed that doing so eliminated the dropouts.

Certainly in these cases the dropouts are not caused by the Radiance Pro. I am not sure how anyone thinks they can argue this point.

===== 

Having multiple people with Denon's having dropouts, does not indicate the issue is the Pro. To the contrary, since others with different audio processors have no dropouts using the Radiance Pro, it is reasonable to believe it is a Denon issue which is just being repeated. I do know some with Denon's do not have issues. So, this is not all Denon's.

I can say that the few devices I have opened and looked at the HDMI circuit board layout show that the designer did not understand microwave differential-pair circuit board layout rules required by HDMI. Case in point is the original HDMI switchboard in the Trinnov. I looked at the layout and to me it was clear the designer did not understand microwave transmission line theory. Another data-point is that Storm Audio used to use the same HDMI switch board as the original Trinnov 4k HDMI switch board (which Trinnov recently upgraded to a different HDMI switch board). Storm Audio had so many issues with that switch board (and not just with the Radiance Pro) that they designed their own HDMI switch board. The new Storm Audio design has eliminated the audio dropouts. I believe this is the same reason Trinnov went to a new HDMI switch board to try to eliminate audio dropouts, but this is my conjecture based on history and not any statement from Trinnov.

I again want to point out that we really like the Trinnov Altitude 16 in the Lumagen demo theater, and have managed to eliminate dropouts (other than a couple mentioned using DTS HD, which I believe were caused by the known Trinnov DTS HD issue).

While I have not seen inside a Denon, it is possible some models could have layouts that do not follow all the necessary layout rules. This would increase signal reflections, and cause random dropouts. Complicating this discussion is you would need to X-Ray the board to hope to see internal layers to figure this out for sure if this is the case.

==== 

Removing the Radiance Pro for audio as an audio test is actually an apples and oranges comparison. For example, with an 18 GHz output from the Pro the audio output is "audio with 720p blank video" where connecting directly connected to the source the audio comes with active video. So while it is certainly valid to do this test, you need to understand the results considering the connection is likely at a different rate, and a different video stream, both of which can affect the results. The data patterns are completely different and so the reflections in the HDMI input section of the audio processor are different.

==== 

If you prefer to have the audio processor first, this is an approved connection scheme for the Radiance Pro. It is just not the preferred set up.


----------



## Karl Maga

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> This place is a strange one, folk come here looking to find solutions to a problem and half the replies are people saying they don’t have the same problem.
> 
> also this is you saying you have audio drop outs with your Lumagen?, honestly I don’t get it, being a fanboy isn’t helping people solve the problem
> 
> View attachment 3155819
> View attachment 3155820
> 
> 
> The drop outs probably don’t matter that much to you but to others they do.


Wow, that’s concerning. I’m dealing with an elderly family member who is rapidly progressing through stages of dementia. It appears I have reason to be concerned about myself.

Sorry I hurt your feelings, but I’ve been paying close attention to audio dropouts since you came out of nowhere 21 days ago with nothing but anti Lumagen rhetoric. You sound like the MadVR Envy fanboys who are desperate to discredit Lumagen. No dropouts in that period of time (as far as I can recall, which now seems unreliable).

I’m concerned about the dropouts, especially as I’ve been considering a Trinnov which is most commonly associated with dropout complainants.


----------



## sjschaff

Wondering: are you using the latest switch board in your Trinnov or a prior one? Also, it seems that people are not experiencing problems with dropouts, as long as the sources go into their AV receivers or pre-pros first and then feed video to the Lumagen. So, it would appear a more complicated problem than might be suggested.


----------



## garyolearysteele

jrp said:


> I will try again:
> 
> 
> ====
> 
> Removing the Radiance Pro for audio as an audio test is actually an apples and oranges comparison. For example, with an 18 GHz output from the Pro the audio output is "audio with 720p blank video" where connecting directly connected to the source the audio comes with active video. So while it is certainly valid to do this test, you need to understand the results considering the connection is likely at a different rate, and a different video stream, both of which can affect the results. The data patterns are completely different and so the reflections in the HDMI input section of the audio processor are different.
> 
> ====


This though is surely a possible avenue to investigate that might help those of us that can’t get rid of the audio drops.. for me I have 3000+ hours of viewing with 8 different sources into an arcam avr without a single drop. Adding the lumagen and drops across all sources. I agree there are a lot of moving parts but it all works without the Lumagen, there has to be something different they are doing that lumagen could do to fix the issue


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> Wondering: are you using the latest switch board in your Trinnov or a prior one? Also, it seems that people are not experiencing problems with dropouts, as long as the sources go into their AV receivers or pre-pros first and then feed video to the Lumagen. So, it would appear a more complicated problem than might be suggested.


If you were intending to ask me:

The Lumagen Demo Theater has an Altitude 16 with the original 4k HDMI board with 7 inputs. We use input 7 on the Altitude 16.

I have discussed changing to the new Trinnov 8 input HDMI switch board. Since I would have to send it in for the new switch board plus new power supply, and since we are not having dropouts, it's a "not broken, don't fix" situation.

I have heard, anecdotally, that the new 8-input Trinnov switch board works better than the older 7-input board. I need more information on if this is true or not.

====

Not sure of your point of "more complicated." There are two different scenarios, and they are different. I think I was pretty clear in both my last two posts about this and the results of our testing and feedback from customers and dealers.

====

As I have posted before, if you are having issues and have a Radiance Pro in the system, please contact lumagen.com support by email. I will try to respond within a day. If you do not see a response, please call our office and leave me a message (please speak slowly and clearly, repeating the call back number). I have been very successful helping eliminate audio dropouts and other issues. There have been a couple head scratchers, but in most case we have been able to resolve issues.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> I will try again:
> 
> If the Radiance Pro corrupted audio, the corruption would happen with any audio processor on its output. That audio dropouts cease when, only, the audio processor is changed means the issues were not caused by the Radiance Pro. I mentioned the two cases I recalled the details of, but there are a number of other cases where just changing the audio processor eliminated audio dropouts. For some of these I actually asked the installing dealer to test with a different audio processor and they confirmed that doing so eliminated the dropouts.
> 
> Certainly in these cases the dropouts are not caused by the Radiance Pro. I am not sure how anyone thinks they can argue this point.
> 
> =====
> 
> Having multiple people with Denon's having dropouts, does not indicate the issue is the Pro. To the contrary, since others with different audio processors have no dropouts using the Radiance Pro, it is reasonable to believe it is a Denon issue which is just being repeated. I do know some with Denon's do not have issues. So, this is not all Denon's.
> 
> I can say that the few devices I have opened and looked at the HDMI circuit board layout show that the designer did not understand microwave differential-pair circuit board layout rules required by HDMI. Case in point is the original HDMI switchboard in the Trinnov. I looked at the layout and to me it was clear the designer did not understand microwave transmission line theory. Another data-point is that Storm Audio used to use the same HDMI switch board as the original Trinnov 4k HDMI switch board (which Trinnov recently upgraded to a different HDMI switch board). Storm Audio had so many issues with that switch board (and not just with the Radiance Pro) that they designed their own HDMI switch board. The new Storm Audio design has eliminated the audio dropouts. I believe this is the same reason Trinnov went to a new HDMI switch board to try to eliminate audio dropouts, but this is my conjecture based on history and not any statement from Trinnov.
> 
> I again want to point out that we really like the Trinnov Altitude 16 in the Lumagen demo theater, and have managed to eliminate dropouts (other than a couple mentioned using DTS HD, which I believe were caused by the known Trinnov DTS HD issue).
> 
> While I have not seen inside a Denon, it is possible some models could have layouts that do not follow all the necessary layout rules. This would increase signal reflections, and cause random dropouts. Complicating this discussion is you would need to X-Ray the board to hope to see internal layers to figure this out for sure if this is the case.
> 
> ====
> 
> Removing the Radiance Pro for audio as an audio test is actually an apples and oranges comparison. For example, with an 18 GHz output from the Pro the audio output is "audio with 720p blank video" where connecting directly connected to the source the audio comes with active video. So while it is certainly valid to do this test, you need to understand the results considering the connection is likely at a different rate, and a different video stream, both of which can affect the results. The data patterns are completely different and so the reflections in the HDMI input section of the audio processor are different.
> 
> ====
> 
> If you prefer to have the audio processor first, this is an approved connection scheme for the Radiance Pro. It is just not the preferred set up.


I will try again:

Why does this problem only happen with lumagen in the chain?


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> I will try again:
> 
> If the Radiance Pro corrupted audio, the corruption would happen with any audio processor on its output. That audio dropouts cease when, only, the audio processor is changed means the issues were not caused by the Radiance Pro. I mentioned the two cases I recalled the details of, but there are a number of other cases where just changing the audio processor eliminated audio dropouts. For some of these I actually asked the installing dealer to test with a different audio processor and they confirmed that doing so eliminated the dropouts.
> 
> Certainly in these cases the dropouts are not caused by the Radiance Pro. I am not sure how anyone thinks they can argue this point.
> 
> =====
> 
> Having multiple people with Denon's having dropouts, does not indicate the issue is the Pro. To the contrary, since others with different audio processors have no dropouts using the Radiance Pro, it is reasonable to believe it is a Denon issue which is just being repeated. I do know some with Denon's do not have issues. So, this is not all Denon's.
> 
> I can say that the few devices I have opened and looked at the HDMI circuit board layout show that the designer did not understand microwave differential-pair circuit board layout rules required by HDMI. Case in point is the original HDMI switchboard in the Trinnov. I looked at the layout and to me it was clear the designer did not understand microwave transmission line theory. Another data-point is that Storm Audio used to use the same HDMI switch board as the original Trinnov 4k HDMI switch board (which Trinnov recently upgraded to a different HDMI switch board). Storm Audio had so many issues with that switch board (and not just with the Radiance Pro) that they designed their own HDMI switch board. The new Storm Audio design has eliminated the audio dropouts. I believe this is the same reason Trinnov went to a new HDMI switch board to try to eliminate audio dropouts, but this is my conjecture based on history and not any statement from Trinnov.
> 
> I again want to point out that we really like the Trinnov Altitude 16 in the Lumagen demo theater, and have managed to eliminate dropouts (other than a couple mentioned using DTS HD, which I believe were caused by the known Trinnov DTS HD issue).
> 
> While I have not seen inside a Denon, it is possible some models could have layouts that do not follow all the necessary layout rules. This would increase signal reflections, and cause random dropouts. Complicating this discussion is you would need to X-Ray the board to hope to see internal layers to figure this out for sure if this is the case.
> 
> ====
> 
> Removing the Radiance Pro for audio as an audio test is actually an apples and oranges comparison. For example, with an 18 GHz output from the Pro the audio output is "audio with 720p blank video" where connecting directly connected to the source the audio comes with active video. So while it is certainly valid to do this test, you need to understand the results considering the connection is likely at a different rate, and a different video stream, both of which can affect the results. The data patterns are completely different and so the reflections in the HDMI input section of the audio processor are different.
> 
> ====
> 
> If you prefer to have the audio processor first, this is an approved connection scheme for the Radiance Pro. It is just not the preferred set up.


Jim, with all due respect, read back over the last 30 pages and you will see virtually all processors have been mentioned in relation to audio dropouts when using the RP.

even in the last page alone we’ve had mentions of denon, marantz, arcam, anthem and trinnov. What else is there? Emotiva? Oh yes, I had dropouts when I had an Emo for a short while, Lyngdorf - I’ve not seen these reported but they have plenty of hdmi issues already. Not sure what other processors there are, but blaming everything else but the RP is so frustrating to all of us owners who are trying to fix the issue.

Others come on here saying they have no issues either doesn’t really help, I wish I was in your position, I’ve currently got $50,000 worth of Video and audio equipment in my room that doesn’t work correctly!!!!

And regarding the latest hdmi board on the altitude 16, @steelman1991 has major dropout issues when wired with audio out of the RP, the only way he can resolve it is by going into the altitude first.

We just want the problem resolved and some help in doing so. Telling us to change cables to tributaries which you’ve quoted many times has just made my issue much worse!!!


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> I will try again:
> 
> If the Radiance Pro corrupted audio, the corruption would happen with any audio processor on its output. That audio dropouts cease when, only, the audio processor is changed means the issues were not caused by the Radiance Pro. I mentioned the two cases I recalled the details of, but there are a number of other cases where just changing the audio processor eliminated audio dropouts. For some of these I actually asked the installing dealer to test with a different audio processor and they confirmed that doing so eliminated the dropouts.
> 
> Certainly in these cases the dropouts are not caused by the Radiance Pro. I am not sure how anyone thinks they can argue this point.
> 
> =====
> 
> Having multiple people with Denon's having dropouts, does not indicate the issue is the Pro. To the contrary, since others with different audio processors have no dropouts using the Radiance Pro, it is reasonable to believe it is a Denon issue which is just being repeated. I do know some with Denon's do not have issues. So, this is not all Denon's.
> 
> I can say that the few devices I have opened and looked at the HDMI circuit board layout show that the designer did not understand microwave differential-pair circuit board layout rules required by HDMI. Case in point is the original HDMI switchboard in the Trinnov. I looked at the layout and to me it was clear the designer did not understand microwave transmission line theory. Another data-point is that Storm Audio used to use the same HDMI switch board as the original Trinnov 4k HDMI switch board (which Trinnov recently upgraded to a different HDMI switch board). Storm Audio had so many issues with that switch board (and not just with the Radiance Pro) that they designed their own HDMI switch board. The new Storm Audio design has eliminated the audio dropouts. I believe this is the same reason Trinnov went to a new HDMI switch board to try to eliminate audio dropouts, but this is my conjecture based on history and not any statement from Trinnov.
> 
> I again want to point out that we really like the Trinnov Altitude 16 in the Lumagen demo theater, and have managed to eliminate dropouts (other than a couple mentioned using DTS HD, which I believe were caused by the known Trinnov DTS HD issue).
> 
> While I have not seen inside a Denon, it is possible some models could have layouts that do not follow all the necessary layout rules. This would increase signal reflections, and cause random dropouts. Complicating this discussion is you would need to X-Ray the board to hope to see internal layers to figure this out for sure if this is the case.
> 
> ====
> 
> Removing the Radiance Pro for audio as an audio test is actually an apples and oranges comparison. For example, with an 18 GHz output from the Pro the audio output is "audio with 720p blank video" where connecting directly connected to the source the audio comes with active video. So while it is certainly valid to do this test, you need to understand the results considering the connection is likely at a different rate, and a different video stream, both of which can affect the results. The data patterns are completely different and so the reflections in the HDMI input section of the audio processor are different.
> 
> ====
> 
> If you prefer to have the audio processor first, this is an approved connection scheme for the Radiance Pro. It is just not the preferred set up.


I understand what you're saying, but try to think about it from our perspective. Mark Burton already mentioned in his most recent post that are many processor brands that this issue happens with. Also, saying "it was clear the designer did not understand microwave transmission line theory" really doesn't help. The fact is: these processors are out there, sold, and we buy them...regardless of how well designed they are. And with all my other devices, I don't have dropouts. So maybe all devices are sloppily designed (which they probably are), but they all work and don't have drop outs. The fact that the Lumagen is so well designed may actually be a hinderance in this case: it's not playing "in the same way" as the other children.

I'm not suggesting that the Lumagen purposely have a sloppy design. But it's like that old adage (paraphrased): "if you're sitting there telling everyone else THEY'RE the problem, maybe you in fact are the problem". I agree with others: surely there must be some way to more definitively diagnose these events...maybe the info will glean something that can used towards a cure.


----------



## fatherom

Thought: would putting something like an HD Fury Vertex (or similar device) - between the lumagen audio out and a processor (like my Denon) potentially do either:

1) allow us to see what's happening with the hdmi signal at the point of a dropout
2) (better yet) solve the issue (many people use these devices to help with flakiness in hdmi signal connections)

If so, it would be a relatively low cost option.


----------



## sor

fatherom said:


> I understand what you're saying, but try to think about it from our perspective. Mark Burton already mentioned in his most recent post that are many processor brands that this issue happens with. Also, saying "it was clear the designer did not understand microwave transmission line theory" really doesn't help. The fact is: these processors are out there, sold, and we buy them...regardless of how well designed they are. And with all my other devices, I don't have dropouts. So maybe all devices are sloppily designed (which they probably are), but they all work and don't have drop outs. The fact that the Lumagen is so well designed may actually be a hinderance in this case: it's not playing "in the same way" as the other children.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the Lumagen purposely have a sloppy design. But it's like that old adage (paraphrased): "if you're sitting there telling everyone else THEY'RE the problem, maybe you in fact are the problem". I agree with others: surely there must be some way to more definitively diagnose these events...maybe the info will glean something that can used towards a cure.


I know nothing about it in technical detail, but what is being described seems to me like a _compatibility_ issue. Several processors work well with other devices but not with the Lumagen, and the Lumagen works well with other devices but not these specific ones. Both sides can say “well when we interface with something else we work just fine” - that’s not really a good indicator of which side is broken and which isn’t.

They just don’t work well together, even if they both work well with other devices. Which side is to blame is sort of beside the point, except for the fact that we are in a Lumagen thread and there’s a slight chance the Lumagen could be changed to improve compatibility. The odds are a lot smaller that you’d get the ear of Denon to improve their end.


----------



## sjschaff

sor said:


> I know nothing about it in technical detail, but what is being described seems to me like a _compatibility_ issue. Several processors work well with other devices but not with the Lumagen, and the Lumagen works well with other devices but not these specific ones. Both sides can say “well when we interface with something else we work just fine” - that’s not really a good indicator of which side is broken and which isn’t.
> 
> Which side is to blame is sort of beside the point, except for the fact that we are in a Lumagen thread and there’s a slight chance the Lumagen could be changed to improve compatibility. The odds are a lot smaller that you’d get the ear of Denon to improve their end.


If it's not something that can be altered in firmware, then "slight" becomes almost none (that is not without some hardware component replacement).


----------



## aguy

fatherom said:


> Thought: would putting something like an HD Fury Vertex (or similar device) - between the lumagen audio out and a processor (like my Denon) potentially do either:
> 
> 1) allow us to see what's happening with the hdmi signal at the point of a dropout
> 2) (better yet) solve the issue (many people use these devices to help with flakiness in hdmi signal connections)
> 
> If so, it would be a relatively low cost option.


I don’t have anything except a very occasional audio dropout. touchwood.

I do actually have a hdfury vertex on one of the outputs of my lumagen. My setup is 9 ghz output to the projector with 15m tributaries. Then on the 18 GHz output into my vertex which is then split into a further two outputs. One to Sony tv and one to crestron nvx encoder. It was been stable ever since I put the vertex down in the chain so it may be worth trying for those with audio dropouts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fatherom

aguy said:


> I don’t have anything except a very occasional audio dropout. touchwood.


Right, but when I connect my Oppo 203 or my Sony x800m2 directly to my Denon, I get zero audio dropouts. I'll freely admit if I had one every 6 months when using the lumagen, I wouldn't be posting. But when my Lumagen is in the chain, I get about 1 audio dropout per 2 movies watched.


----------



## aguy

fatherom said:


> Right, but when I connect my Oppo 203 or my Sony x800m2 directly to my Denon, I get zero audio dropouts. I'll freely admit if I had one every 6 months when using the lumagen, I wouldn't be posting. But when my Lumagen is in the chain, I get about 1 audio dropout per 2 movies watched.


I definitely understand the frustration and I would feel the same. 

I was mostly posting to add to discussion around the hdfury in addition to the lumagen. The hdfury products are relatively cheap 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fatherom

aguy said:


> I was mostly posting to add to discussion around the hdfury in addition to the lumagen. The hdfury products are relatively cheap


Much appreciated.

I would be curious if those of us with many audio dropouts would see them cease with an hdfury in the signal chain.


----------



## sjschaff

By the way, I noticed that 2 of my sources, a Panasonic UB-900 BR and Zappiti Pro HD have 2 outputs. One, the one I’ve been using for video/audio, and another dedicated for audio only. Just wondering if splitting these source streams such that video only goes to the Lumagen and the audio only goes to the pre-pro (Trinnov in my case) would work, and possibly avoid any dropouts. Before I go and futz with wiring and reconfiguring these sources, I figured id ask.


----------



## fatherom

sjschaff said:


> By the way, I noticed that 2 of my sources, a Panasonic UB-900 BR and Zappiti Pro HD have 2 outputs. One, the one I’ve been using for video/audio, and another dedicated for audio only. Just wondering if splitting these source streams such that video only goes to the Lumagen and the audio only goes to the pre-pro (Trinnov in my case) would work, and possibly avoid any dropouts. Before I go and futz with wiring and reconfiguring these sources, I figured id ask.


That's precisely a major aspect of what we've been discussing - I use the dedicated audio outs on any device I own that has a dedicated audio out. I bypass the lumagen and go directly to the denon. The lumagen, with this configuration, is essentially just dealing with the video (for all intents and purposes).


----------



## SJHT

When I had my MX160, I had a few audio issues. I fixed by not using the audio output, but rather one of the full Video/Audio outputs. I know the audio output contains a 720P60 blank video signal. Wonder if that could be selectable to another resolution (eg 1080P, 1080i, etc.). This is one of the differences when you connect directly to your AVP (vs. Lumagen). When you connect a device directly, you are likely NOT sending 720P60 as part of the audio/video. I really don't have that many dropouts, but will start to pay more attention to them. Would be great if the issue could be consistently triggered! Play movie X on device Y and at the 30 minute mark, you get a dropout. I also switched to 3m cables recently and that seemed to help. I think the dropouts I have got were DTS movies and that seems to be a known Trinnov issue. SJ


----------



## Michael-S

Long time lurker here. I see lots of frustration (understandably), but am curious why the solution is being asked for in a public forum.

Is it that you have all tried Lumagen Tech support without resolution? Because it might be best to pursue the official Lumagen support channel. JRP has requested you do so.


----------



## sjschaff

fatherom said:


> That's precisely a major aspect of what we've been discussing - I use the dedicated audio outs on any device I own that has a dedicated audio out. I bypass the lumagen and go directly to the denon. The lumagen, with this configuration, is essentially just dealing with the video (for all intents and purposes).


OK. Is it necessary to alter the Lumagen's configuration for that source in any way to prevent it from passing audio out? I've got my single audio only from the Lumagen feeding the Trinnov. I know I'll be using a different HDMI input from the sources, but want to avoid any glitches.


----------



## fatherom

Michael-S said:


> Long time lurker here. I see lots of frustration (understandably), but am curious why the solution is being asked for in a public forum.
> 
> Is it that you have all tried Lumagen Tech support without resolution? Because it might be best to pursue the official Lumagen support channel. JRP has requested you do so.


Others can speak about their specific experiences, but from what i've read people like Gary and Mark have worked with official Lumagen support to try to nail down the issue. I have as well.



sjschaff said:


> OK. Is it necessary to alter the Lumagen's configuration for that source in any way to prevent it from passing audio out? I've got my single audio only from the Lumagen feeding the Trinnov. I know I'll be using a different HDMI input from the sources, but want to avoid any glitches.


No, no changes to lumagen config needed.


----------



## sjschaff

fatherom said:


> Others can speak about their specific experiences, but from what i've read people like Gary and Mark have worked with official Lumagen support to try to nail down the issue. I have as well.
> 
> 
> 
> No, no changes to lumagen config needed.


Thanks. The only things I noted that might be useful to test are: MENU 0748 Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources and MENU 0943 Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources (feature toggle). Not sure if these are default or not.


----------



## fatherom

I want to stress something that I often say during the discussions of audio drop outs. I love my Lumagen and what it brings to my setup. Their customer service is top notch. Their responsiveness is top notch.

@jrp


----------



## docrog

With the countless posts here pertaining to multiple audio processors having apparent intermittent incompatibility with the audio stream from the Radiance Pro, irrespective of length or quality of interconnects, it's a mystery to me why Lumagen steadfastly clings to proclaiming the video pathway/configuration which forces that outcome as "preferred". Is the jitter experienced by the end user with the typical processor of posters here that obvious when the Lumagen is no longer part of the audio stream???? I'd guess NOT, since many here currently send audio from the video source directly to their high end AVR/pre-pro and I can't remember anyone posting that they felt that their (rock solid synched) audio was in some way of suboptimal quality because it wasn't first routed through the RP.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> With the countless posts here pertaining to multiple audio processors having apparent intermittent incompatibility with the audio stream from the Radiance Pro, irrespective of length or quality of interconnects, it's a mystery to me why Lumagen steadfastly clings to proclaiming the video pathway/configuration which forces that outcome as "preferred". Is the* jitter experienced by the end user with the typical processor* of posters here that obvious when the Lumagen is no longer part of the audio stream???? I'd guess NOT, since many here currently send audio from the video source directly to their AVR/pre-pro and I can't remember anyone posting that they felt that their *audio was in some way suboptimal* because it wasn't first routed through the RP.


I don't believe your presumptions here have anything to do with why Lumagen has said going through an audio processor first is not preferred.


----------



## Htnut2000

I have been observing the many posts about audio dropouts and have been wondering what is different with my system as I have never had dropouts with either my 4444 or my 5348.

On the surface of it, my system is pretty common around here:

Lumagen 5348 Video output 3, audio output 1
Trinnov A32 with 7 input HDMI board and firmware upgrade
Oppo 203
Apple TV 4K 
Kaleidescape
Beyonwiz set top box
RS4500 Projector
Ruipro 8K fibre cable 20 M to projector
Tributary UHD 2m cables on all inputs to the Pro

The only thing that might be unusual is my connection from the Lumagen to the Trinnov.

My cable is an Audioquest Vodka HDMI cable that I bought second hand around 2013 so it is probably 20 years old.
It certainly is not certified premium high speed 4 k 

The common suggestion to fix the dropouts has be to UPGRADE the cable. My suggestion is to try to DOWNGRADE the cable to a lower speed cable

The other thing to check is the input setting on HDMI7 on the Altitude. I believe the default is 2.0 but have mine set to 1.4 as that is all that is required for audio

This is not a scientific suggestion as I haven't proved that the cable or the setting is the issue. I don't want to break something that is working!

I am just hoping it may be a solution for others who are having issues.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> I don't believe your presumptions here have anything to do with why Lumagen has said going through an audio processor first is not preferred.


It is if the video source does not have a separate audio out (streaming devices such ATV4K, Roku, etc.). An ancillary touted point is the reduction of jitter provided by the RP. I was commenting that I've never read a post where comparison of routing audio initially through the RP resulted in perceivable improvement by the end user when compared with bypassing the RP.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> It is if the video source does not have a separate audio out (streaming devices such ATV4K, Roku, etc.). An ancillary touted point is the reduction of jitter provided by the RP. I was commenting that I've never read a post where comparison of routing audio initially through the RP resulted in perceivable improvement by the end user when compared with bypassing the RP.


And my point is it says right in the lumagen manual why the lumagen being first is their preferred configuration. (And it doesn't mention audio jitter)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> And my point is it says right in the lumagen manual why the lumagen being first is their preferred configuration. (And it doesn't mention audio jitter) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, it's appropriate that being the preferred configuration is based on the fact that it *may* improve switching & sync times and that some (older) AVRs *may* cause video degradation, but there is no acknowledgment that the same configuration *may* be associated with intermittent audio incompatibilities? Whether or not improvement of jitter is is mentioned in the configuration diagrams, it's been mentioned here frequently, especially with the new RP model (5348). I'm quite aware what benefits the RP has added to my HT, so my posting is most certainly not meant as bad mothing the product.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> So, it's appropriate that being the preferred configuration is based on the fact that it *may* improve switching & sync times and that some (older) AVRs *may* cause video degradation, but there is no acknowledgment that the same configuration *may* be associated with intermittent audio incompatibilities? Whether or not improvement of jitter is is mentioned in the configuration diagrams, it's been mentioned here frequently, especially with the new RP model. I'm quite aware what benefits the RP has added to my HT, so my posting is most certainly not meant as bad mothing the product.


You seem hell bent on defending your configuration every chance this comes up. I don't really care. 

I'm just stating what lumagen cites in their manual as the reasons for their preferred configuration. I'm not adding any other info beyond that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> You seem hell bent on defending your configuration every chance this comes up. I don't really care. I'm just stating what lumagen cites in their manual as the reasons for their preferred configuration. I'm not adding any other info beyond that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just reread my earlier post which you felt the need to critique. I never mentioned (let alone, defended) my RP configuration, only questioning why a preferred configuration has been (even occasionally) problematic for more than a few high end posters who have gone to great lengths to rectify their issues while maintaining that configuration. That's totally irrespective of whether or not other configuration chains may be entirely problem free. FWIW, it's hard to believe that you really don't care since you weren't forced to comment.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> I just reread my earlier post which you felt the need to critique. I never mentioned (let alone, defended) my RP configuration, only questioning why a preferred configuration has been (even occasionally) problematic for more than a few high end posters who have gone to great lengths to rectify their issues while maintaining that configuration. That's totally irrespective of whether or not other configuration chains may be entirely problem free. FWIW, it's hard to believe that you really don't care since you weren't forced to comment.


I commented on your original post to point out your error (so others would benefit) where you linked lumagen's preferred configuration to audio jitter. The manual doesn't mention this.

Your adamance and incredulousness about the avr first vs. later configuration comes through your posts; we know it works for you. It doesn't work for me (and many others).


----------



## sjschaff

Htnut2000 said:


> I have been observing the many posts about audio dropouts and have been wondering what is different with my system as I have never had dropouts with either my 4444 or my 5348.
> 
> On the surface of it, my system is pretty common around here:
> 
> Lumagen 5348 Video output 3, audio output 1
> Trinnov A32 with 7 input HDMI board and firmware upgrade
> Oppo 203
> Apple TV 4K
> Kaleidescape
> Beyonwiz set top box
> RS4500 Projector
> Ruipro 8K fibre cable 20 M to projector
> Tributary UHD 2m cables on all inputs to the Pro
> 
> The only thing that might be unusual is my connection from the Lumagen to the Trinnov.
> 
> My cable is an Audioquest Vodka HDMI cable that I bought second hand around 2013 so it is probably 20 years old.
> It certainly is not certified premium high speed 4 k
> 
> The common suggestion to fix the dropouts has be to UPGRADE the cable. My suggestion is to try to DOWNGRADE the cable to a lower speed cable
> 
> The other thing to check is the input setting on HDMI7 on the Altitude. I believe the default is 2.0 but have mine set to 1.4 as that is all that is required for audio
> 
> This is not a scientific suggestion as I haven't proved that the cable or the setting is the issue. I don't want to break something that is working!
> 
> I am just hoping it may be a solution for others who are having issues.


Interesting. I too have an unused Vodka HDMI (I think it's 5 meters). Right now I'm using a 3 meter Tributaries one. Doubt this would have any impact. However, you're idea of altering the setting for the HDMI input on my Trinnov from 2 to 1.4 for my new Trinnov (see below) may ensure that audio drops don't happen again.









I've no idea if this in any way would adversely affect the sonic quality delivered via the Trinnov.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> I commented on your original post to point out your error (so others would benefit) where you linked lumagen's preferred configuration to audio jitter. The manual doesn't mention this.
> 
> Your adamance and incredulousness about the avr first vs. later configuration comes through your posts; we know it works for you. It doesn't work for me (and many others).


Again, I hadn't championed my personal configuration (let alone: adamant? incredulousness?). An additional alternative configuration (#2, "audio and video routed separately") which maintains the RP as the video switcher apparently avoids any drop outs according to posters, but that hasn't qualified as a preferred configuration either, has it? BTW, my mention of jitter was as a sidebar, as it definitely has been a Lumagen bullet point. I was specifically asking whether posters here had subjectively noticed whether or not they perceived any audio enhancement when initially routing audio & video through the RP which only occurs with configuration #1. I certainly didn't represent reduced jitter as the main reason for the preferred configuration of "receiver after radiance". Enough with the personal attack, OK?


----------



## Mark Burton

Htnut2000 said:


> I have been observing the many posts about audio dropouts and have been wondering what is different with my system as I have never had dropouts with either my 4444 or my 5348.
> 
> On the surface of it, my system is pretty common around here:
> 
> Lumagen 5348 Video output 3, audio output 1
> Trinnov A32 with 7 input HDMI board and firmware upgrade
> Oppo 203
> Apple TV 4K
> Kaleidescape
> Beyonwiz set top box
> RS4500 Projector
> Ruipro 8K fibre cable 20 M to projector
> Tributary UHD 2m cables on all inputs to the Pro
> 
> The only thing that might be unusual is my connection from the Lumagen to the Trinnov.
> 
> My cable is an Audioquest Vodka HDMI cable that I bought second hand around 2013 so it is probably 20 years old.
> It certainly is not certified premium high speed 4 k
> 
> The common suggestion to fix the dropouts has be to UPGRADE the cable. My suggestion is to try to DOWNGRADE the cable to a lower speed cable
> 
> The other thing to check is the input setting on HDMI7 on the Altitude. I believe the default is 2.0 but have mine set to 1.4 as that is all that is required for audio
> 
> This is not a scientific suggestion as I haven't proved that the cable or the setting is the issue. I don't want to break something that is working!
> 
> I am just hoping it may be a solution for others who are having issues.





sjschaff said:


> Interesting. I too have an unused Vodka HDMI (I think it's 5 meters). Right now I'm using a 3 meter Tributaries one. Doubt this would have any impact. However, you're idea of altering the setting for the HDMI input on my Trinnov from 2 to 1.4 for my new Trinnov (see below) may ensure that audio drops don't happen again.
> View attachment 3155927
> 
> 
> I've no idea if this in any way would adversely affect the sonic quality delivered via the Trinnov.


I do have my audio set to 1.4 on my altitude. I switched it from 2.0 and it did seem to help.

trying slower 1080p cables may just be an option though and being honest, something I have yet to try……the question is, where do I try a 5 year old spec cable? 🤔


----------



## Die Zwei

sjschaff said:


> I've no idea if this in any way would adversely affect the sonic quality delivered via the Trinnov.


This is what Trinnov says:
"However, by default, inputs 1 to 3 are declared as HDMI 1.4. This software-based limitation is intended to help with some older sources that do not correctly recognize HDMI 2.0 hardware, and to improve reliability with hardware that does not support high speed bandwidth (over 300MHz). Despite this limitation, these inputs can still support HDCP 2.2 content and HDR signals and any other feature of the other inputs. Said otherwise,* as long as you are using a signal that is under the 300MHz/10 Gbps limit they are identical to other inputs*."

To all of you having issues with an Altitude: is this document know to you? (see attachment) EDIT: It´s a bit dated (2018 AFAIK) so it doesn´t cover the newer 8-input version, but i think it´s pretty valuable anyway.


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> By the way, I noticed that 2 of my sources, a Panasonic UB-900 BR and Zappiti Pro HD have 2 outputs. One, the one I’ve been using for video/audio, and another dedicated for audio only. Just wondering if splitting these source streams such that video only goes to the Lumagen and the audio only goes to the pre-pro (Trinnov in my case) would work, and possibly avoid any dropouts. Before I go and futz with wiring and reconfiguring these sources, I figured id ask.


Splitting the audio and video as you described eliminated my audio dropouts completely. Interestingly enough, only 4K Blu-rays had dropouts. Never 1080p source material including an AT & T cable box routed through the Lumagen ( audio and video ).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> Splitting the audio and video as you described eliminated my audio dropouts completely. Interestingly enough, only 4K Blu-rays had dropouts. Never 1080p source material including an AT & T cable box routed through the Lumagen ( audio and video ).Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Does that mean that you've opted for RP chain configuration #2 (split audio & video), rather than #1 (preferred; processor after RP), whenever your video source provides a discrete audio output?


----------



## Ian_Currie

I'm a happy customer with no dropouts, but am just curious as to what the typical duration of a dropout is?

I'm not asking to try to suggest that a very short dropout is negligible, I just want to understand what others are going through and it may become relevant to me if I upgrade my processor.

Thanks.


----------



## Mark Burton

Ian_Currie said:


> I'm a happy customer with no dropouts, but am just curious as to what the typical duration of a dropout is?
> 
> I'm not asking to try to suggest that a very short dropout is negligible, I just want to understand what others are going through and it may become relevant to me if I upgrade my processor.
> 
> Thanks.


Between 1-3 seconds. What’s strange is, it is only ever a maximum of 1 per film and seems to be within the first 25-30 minutes, if it doesn’t do it in this time, it doesn’t seem to at all.

Like others have said, if you then rewind the scene to test again, it will work fine, which confirms it’s not the source recording.


----------



## sjschaff

Die Zwei said:


> This is what Trinnov says:
> "However, by default, inputs 1 to 3 are declared as HDMI 1.4. This software-based limitation is intended to help with some older sources that do not correctly recognize HDMI 2.0 hardware, and to improve reliability with hardware that does not support high speed bandwidth (over 300MHz). Despite this limitation, these inputs can still support HDCP 2.2 content and HDR signals and any other feature of the other inputs. Said otherwise,* as long as you are using a signal that is under the 300MHz/10 Gbps limit they are identical to other inputs*."
> 
> To all of you having issues with an Altitude: is this document know to you? (see attachment) EDIT: It´s a bit dated (2018 AFAIK) so it doesn´t cover the newer 8-input version, but i think it´s pretty valuable anyway.


As I’ve the newest Altitude it really is not applicable. However, as you can see from the image I previously attached, I would think the flexibility exists to selectively “downgrade” any 2.0 HDMI inputs to 1.4


----------



## Die Zwei

sjschaff said:


> However, as you can see from the image I attached, I would think the flexibility exists to selectively “downgrade” any 2.0 HDMI inputs to 1.4


Yes - that´s why it says "* as long as you are using a signal that is under the 300MHz/10 Gbps limit they [1.4] are identical to other inputs* " regardless what version.

EDIT: Oh, and the PDF, there´s a lot of valuable information that applies to all versions of Altitudes.


----------



## sjschaff

Craig Peer said:


> Splitting the audio and video as you described eliminated my audio dropouts completely. Interestingly enough, only 4K Blu-rays had dropouts. Never 1080p source material including an AT & T cable box routed through the Lumagen ( audio and video ).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. I’ll proceed along those lines of splitting. In think the couple of 3 meter Monoprice certified 18Gbps HDMI cables should be adequate for audio purposes.

It seems, at least in the case of the Zappiti, this was specifically designed in for what I’m doing, whereas the Panasonic player offers this for connecting to a less capable 2nd TV. Anyone please correct me if I’m misinterpreting their docs.


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> Thanks. I’ll proceed along those lines of splitting. In think the couple of 3 meter Monoprice certified 18Gbps HDMI cables should be adequate for audio purposes.


I'm one of those guys that had the random / rare but completely maddening audio dropout. I now have a Zappiti Pro too, and I'm splitting the audio and video the same way. No dropouts in a long long time, except - 

If anyone enjoys watching " Knives Out " on 4K Blu-ray on your Oppo 203, but has an irritating audio dropout 2/3rd's of the way through the disc, it ain't the Lumagen. It's the Oppo for some reason. That audio dropout doesn't happen on my Panny UB820. It better not happen on the Zappiti !


----------



## scrowe

Given my own recent, albeit dissimilar experience, I am assuming that people here, have also tried the back-to-basics approach. I appreciate its not always easy, it took me months to get around to a more scientific approach, and otherwise living with the issue. No-one likes to get behind their AV stack and get down and dirty with the cables.

Minimum. 1 single output device, 1 single input device, 1 single audio device, based on representative issues. Make sure all have the best/optimum cabling, check plugs inserted forcefully at both ends.

Unplug everything else, apart from power, no matter how innocuous, e.g. serial or usb update cable.

Take the time to recheck setup menus on devices, turn off anything HDMI related that you think is not required/optimal for purely passing audio and video. I also like the post about ‘dumbing‘ down the audio only connection, or at least reserve that in troubleshooting steps. If devices have multiple in/outs experiment there as well.

Then just keep discipline to watch this one device through the Lumagen. If you do see a problem, it’s important to write down things that can be changed/set/toggled on each device, but as hard as it is, only make one change at a time. If issue persists, change the last setting back before changing something else.

I got there with this method, but admittedly I found the problem very early on in the process, and made sure to spend time reverting to re-introduce the issue, then back again so it was definitive.

Good Luck.


----------



## Mark Burton

scrowe said:


> Given my own recent, albeit dissimilar experience, I am assuming that people here, have also tried the back-to-basics approach. I appreciate its not always easy, it took me months to get around to a more scientific approach, and otherwise living with the issue. No-one likes to get behind their AV stack and get down and dirty with the cables.
> 
> Minimum. 1 single output device, 1 single input device, 1 single audio device, based on representative issues. Make sure all have the best/optimum cabling, check plugs inserted forcefully at both ends.
> 
> Unplug everything else, apart from power, no matter how innocuous, e.g. serial or usb update cable.
> 
> Take the time to recheck setup menus on devices, turn off anything HDMI related that you think is not required/optimal for purely passing audio and video. I also like the post about ‘dumbing‘ down the audio only connection, or at least reserve that in troubleshooting steps. If devices have multiple in/outs experiment there as well.
> 
> Then just keep discipline to watch this one device through the Lumagen. If you do see a problem, it’s important to write down things that can be changed/set/toggled on each device, but as hard as it is, only make one change at a time. If issue persists, change the last setting back before changing something else.
> 
> I got there with this method, but admittedly I found the problem very early on in the process, and made sure to spend time reverting to re-introduce the issue, then back again so it was definitive.
> 
> Good Luck.


Whilst that sounds great in theory, my dropouts are completely random (pre-tributaries), I could go 5 films without one, thinking I’ve cracked it, and bang, there goes another one.

so at what point has it been resolved? 5 films/10 films? It’s almost impossible to get to the bottom of due to the randomness of it all.

Ive installed a 5m 1.4hdmi cable. I’ve noticed it taking longer to sync to my trinnov upon watching a film, with more clicks than previous, so there is definitely a change there. Whether it resolves it…..I’ll report back 👍🏻


----------



## Clark Burk

Craig Peer said:


> I'm one of those guys that had the random / rare but completely maddening audio dropout. I now have a Zappiti Pro too, and I'm splitting the audio and video the same way. No dropouts in a long long time, except -
> 
> If anyone enjoys watching " Knives Out " on 4K Blu-ray on your Oppo 203, but has an irritating audio dropout 2/3rd's of the way through the disc, it ain't the Lumagen. It's the Oppo for some reason. That audio dropout doesn't happen on my Panny UB820. It better not happen on the Zappiti !


Craig that disc is a 3 layer BD-100. If your dropout is 2/3s of the way through the movie that sounds like right about where the last layer change would be. Many disc players have a difficult time with that transition and that may be what is causing the problem there. If it's happening at the same location in the movie that is likely the reason. If you get a good dub and play it on the Zappiti that should not happen.


----------



## Craig Peer

Clark Burk said:


> Craig that disc is a 3 layer BD-100. If your dropout is 2/3s of the way through the movie that sounds like right about where the last layer change would be. Many disc players have a difficult time with that transition and that may be what is causing the problem there. If it's happening at the same location in the movie that is likely the reason. If you get a good dub and play it on the Zappiti that should not happen.


Pretty sure you are right. It's always where Chris Evan's character comes in for the reading of the will I believe. Same place every time!


----------



## jqmn

docrog said:


> An additional alternative configuration (#2, "audio and video routed separately") which maintains the RP as the video switcher apparently avoids any drop outs according to posters,


Didn't end mine but it did reduce them. As I mentioned in the Trinnov thread I just got a patch applied which A thinks will resolve things so I will go for a while and see what happens.


----------



## chasiliff

New to Lumagen. I installed a RP 4242 last week. I had a few audio glitches using Apple TV 2021 to Lumagen to my JVC RS500. Then I read about audio issues in this recent thread. 

I have an HDFury Vertex 2 that I used to output Dolby Vision to my JVC RS500. (No longer messing around with LLDV) I connected the HDFury between Apple TV 2021 and the Lumagen, and I now have Dolby Atmos working fine sent from HDFury to my Marantz receiver, avoiding audio through the Lumagen. The Lumagen receives the video from the HDFury and outputs to the RS500. I wanted to get the HDFury in the chain so I could use it to switch the JVC User settings. Maybe not necessary to have it in there to switch User settings, but I now can test to see if using it to send audio to the receiver ends up with fewer audio glitches. So far, so good. I have my UB820 running through he HDFury to the Lumagen as well, and I will see how it handles audio sent to the receiver, avoiding the Lumagen.


----------



## pentibum

I bought a 4242 a month ago now, and have been fighting audio sync issues. I finally figured out what was happening, and was able to find a solution and wanted to post it for others if they were having a similar issue. Also, maybe there is a better solution I have not tried??

My issue is that whenever the apple or the ub820 switched to 24 HZ, the audio would go out of sync. Trying to fix the sync thru the A/V delay in the lumagen only seemed to make it worse. 
The only way I have found to resolve the issue is to force 60 Hz for both sources. Then everything is in sync and fine. 

My sources are a Apple TV 4k and a Panasonic UB820. They both currently input to the Lumagen 4242. The video outputs to my JVC rs520 and the audio goes to my Pioneer sc-97 receiver.
For cables, I had all 2m Blue Jeans HDMI Cables first, then tried all 2m Monoprice 18Ghz cables. Both had the same issue, but I had to check.

My next step is to try routing the hdmi audio out from the ub820 direct to the receiver and keep the video running to the lumagen. This could resolve possibly be a solution for the UB820.
Since the apple does not have separate outputs, I think I am stuck at 60Hz with it. Unless there is another solution out there?


----------



## Bill DePalma

pentibum said:


> I bought a 4242 a month ago now, and have been fighting audio sync issues. I finally figured out what was happening, and was able to find a solution and wanted to post it for others if they were having a similar issue. Also, maybe there is a better solution I have not tried??
> 
> My issue is that whenever the apple or the ub820 switched to 24 HZ, the audio would go out of sync. Trying to fix the sync thru the A/V delay in the lumagen only seemed to make it worse.
> The only way I have found to resolve the issue is to force 60 Hz for both sources. Then everything is in sync and fine.
> 
> My sources are a Apple TV 4k and a Panasonic UB820. They both currently input to the Lumagen 4242. The video outputs to my JVC rs520 and the audio goes to my Pioneer sc-97 receiver.
> For cables, I had all 2m Blue Jeans HDMI Cables first, then tried all 2m Monoprice 18Ghz cables. Both had the same issue, but I had to check.
> 
> My next step is to try routing the hdmi audio out from the ub820 direct to the receiver and keep the video running to the lumagen. This could resolve possibly be a solution for the UB820.
> Since the apple does not have separate outputs, I think I am stuck at 60Hz with it. Unless there is another solution out there?


I have had exactly the same issue. Forcing 60hz solves it for me as well. I tried many variations but this was also my solution. Lumagen 4242, RS600, Marantz.


----------



## Kris Deering

For audio synch the Lumagen can only delay video, not audio. So you need to figure out what is actually first (it is almost always the audio needs delay). For that you need to do the adjustment in the AVR. I would suggest a test pattern like the one on the Spears and Munsil disc or the Disney WOW disc.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> For audio synch the Lumagen can only delay video, not audio. So you need to figure out what is actually first (it is almost always the audio needs delay). For that you need to do the adjustment in the AVR. I would suggest a test pattern like the one on the Spears and Munsil disc or the Disney WOW disc.


Do you know if there are any test patterns on any of the popular streaming services?


----------



## Mark Burton

bjorg said:


> Do you know if there are any test patterns on any of the popular streaming services?


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Do you know if there are any test patterns on any of the popular streaming services?


Netflix have a test pattern series available with native patterns in most refresh rates. Search "Test patterns" in the UI.
Depending on the player, it might be easier to work out which episode is which using the episode list on the website (some players don't wrap / scroll the title name, which is often long...)








Test Patterns | Netflix


This is a collection of video test patterns organized by source resolution and native frame rate. The resolution indicated in the pattern's title identifies the title's source resolution, and therefore, the stream set's maximum encoded resolution. The frame rate indicated in the pattern's title...




www.netflix.com


----------



## garyolearysteele

pentibum said:


> I bought a 4242 a month ago now, and have been fighting audio sync issues. I finally figured out what was happening, and was able to find a solution and wanted to post it for others if they were having a similar issue. Also, maybe there is a better solution I have not tried??
> 
> My issue is that whenever the apple or the ub820 switched to 24 HZ, the audio would go out of sync. Trying to fix the sync thru the A/V delay in the lumagen only seemed to make it worse.
> The only way I have found to resolve the issue is to force 60 Hz for both sources. Then everything is in sync and fine.
> 
> My sources are a Apple TV 4k and a Panasonic UB820. They both currently input to the Lumagen 4242. The video outputs to my JVC rs520 and the audio goes to my Pioneer sc-97 receiver.
> For cables, I had all 2m Blue Jeans HDMI Cables first, then tried all 2m Monoprice 18Ghz cables. Both had the same issue, but I had to check.
> 
> My next step is to try routing the hdmi audio out from the ub820 direct to the receiver and keep the video running to the lumagen. This could resolve possibly be a solution for the UB820.
> Since the apple does not have separate outputs, I think I am stuck at 60Hz with it. Unless there is another solution out there?


I used the Disney WOW disc to sync, tried a few and that for me was the easiest to spot the delay you need. At about 80ms delay the bars were lining up via Blu-Ray. Netflix via Apple TV looked fine but Amazon Prime didn’t, it’s a pain but prime on ATV needs a bigger delay, seems to be a known issue. Going up a bit between 80ms and 120ms was hard to see much difference on the test patterns but splitting the difference at about 100-110 brought both Netflix and Prime into sync as far as the eye can see


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen

*FW 070921*- Posted 072221 
Added option in Auto Aspect menu to use graphics flag sent from source as indicator of the sources aspect ratio -- this is mainly intended to be used with the Strato menu. 
Fix for some rs232 "ZQI" queries that caused Pro to hang. 
Fix for incorrectly grayed out option in A/V Delay menu. 
Changed some factory reset default settings. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


FYI, reminder:

*FW 062721*- Posted 070621 
Fixed some cases of false aspect detection with the auto aspect functionality. 
Improved deinterlacing and added automatic field flip detection. 
For a new unit the default for field flip detection is 'Auto' but is left as-is if you're updating your unit. 
If you have a flipped field interlaced video issue and want to have it dealt with automatically then you have to set it in the menu under Input: In Configs: RES: Control: Deinterlace: Field. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## jrp

The 070921 release adds a feature to use the Kaleidescape Strato's "Graphics Flag" output to control the aspect ratio selected for the Strato OSD. The Strato OSD, in the new 2.35 aspect mode, was not being detected by the Radiance Pro auto-aspect since it does not "look like" 2.35 video. The simplest, and I think most robust solution, turns out to be to use the Strato Graphics Flag Meta Data to select the source aspect when the OSD is displayed.

To use this new feature, select the Strato input, and then go into the Auto Aspect menu (Input.Options.Aspect Setup.Auto Aspect). Make sure Auto Aspect is enabled. There is a new entry for "Use Graphics Flag" that defaults to off. You can change this to select 1.78 or 2.35 as the aspect (match your Strato OSD setting). You can select this for just the Strato input. Make sure to Save your changes.

Then in the Strato setup menu under Advanced Video Settings and then at the bottom select “Transmit Content Type Metadata.” The Strato will then assert the Graphics Flag when displaying the OSD. The Pro will detect this and override the auto-aspect detection and select the specified "Graphics" source aspect. When video starts the Strato will de-assert the Graphics Flag and the auto-aspect will then again detect source aspect based on the video.


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> The 070921 release adds a feature to use the Kaleidescape Strato's "Graphics Flag" output to control the aspect ratio selected for the Strato OSD. The Strato OSD, in the new 2.35 aspect mode, was not being detected by the Radiance Pro auto-aspect since it does not "look like" 2.35 video. The simplest, and I think most robust solution, turns out to be to use the Strato Graphics Flag Meta Data to select the source aspect when the OSD is displayed.
> 
> To use this new feature, select the Strato input, and then go into the Auto Aspect menu (Input.Options.Aspect Setup.Auto Aspect). Make sure Auto Aspect is enabled. There is a new entry for "Use Graphics Flag" that defaults to off. You can change this to select 1.78 or 2.35 as the aspect (match your Strato OSD setting). You can select this for just the Strato input. Make sure to Save your changes.
> 
> Then in the Strato setup menu under Advanced Video Settings and then at the bottom select “Transmit Content Type Metadata.” The Strato will then assert the Graphics Flag when displaying the OSD. The Pro will detect this and override the auto-aspect detection and select the specified "Graphics" source aspect. When video starts the Strato will de-assert the Graphics Flag and the auto-aspect will then again detect source aspect based on the video.


Tested the feature this afternoon with perfect results.


----------



## aguy

@bjorg. The new update also fixes the issues with ZQI23 and ZQI24

I will be testing that tomorrow. But knowing Jim and Patrick I’m sure they will be perfect 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clark Burk

For those of us without the Stratus anything worth doing the upgrade for?


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## aguy

Clark Burk said:


> For those of us without the Stratus anything worth doing the upgrade for?


Yes if you use the other features in the changelog 

070921- Posted 072221 Added option in Auto Aspect menu to use graphics flag sent from source as indicator of the sources aspect ratio -- this is mainly intended to be used with the Strato menu. Fix for some rs232 "ZQI" queries that caused Pro to hang. Fix for incorrectly grayed out option in A/V Delay menu. Changed some factory reset default settings. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]


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## bjorg

aguy said:


> @bjorg. The new update also fixes the issues with ZQI23 and ZQI24
> 
> I will be testing that tomorrow. But knowing Jim and Patrick I’m sure they will be perfect


Thanks for the assist! When I submitted the bug report back in January, I had just started doing RS-232 programming. So I couldn't tell if I was doing something wrong or not. Glad this got fixed now. I'll try it out over the weekend.

I also figured out a way to avoid the MEMA toggle issue. I believe the solution is to track changes in the reported mode and the rule dependencies. That way, if I manually change the AR via memory, it will trigger a mode change event, but since the information in it is the same, none of the rules will be triggered and it won't pop back to whatever memory the rules would have chosen by default. Dependency tracking FTW!


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## aguy

bjorg said:


> Thanks for the assist! When I submitted the bug report back in January, I had just started doing RS-232 programming. So I couldn't tell if I was doing something wrong or not. Glad this got fixed now. I'll try it out over the weekend.
> 
> I also figured out a way to avoid the MEMA toggle issue. I believe the solution is to track changes in the reported mode and the rule dependencies. That way, if I manually change the AR via memory, it will trigger a mode change event, but since the information in it is the same, none of the rules will be triggered and it won't pop back to whatever memory the rules would have chosen by default. Dependency tracking FTW!


Great news. 

I’ve pretty much got my crestron driver to the point of first release. It’s got some feedback features that the existing module doesn’t have. 

If anyone would like to beta test it please let me know 


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## OzHDHT

aguy said:


> Great news.
> 
> I’ve pretty much got my crestron driver to the point of first release. It’s got some feedback features that the existing module doesn’t have.
> 
> If anyone would like to beta test it please let me know
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice work. My mate is a Crestron fanatic in his home, swears by it. He has my old JVC RS600 handed down to him, but no Lumagen. I'd have to convince him to get one first. Mind you I'm still trying to see him get 4K video circulating properly through Crestron in his house, due to fact whole capability has been dumbed down to handle a single out of date 1080p only TV in his living room. He's also heavily imbalanced towards audio over video as an owner of an Events PA company. If I can get him to progress his video situ(which he swears he's doing) so at least he can view ATV 4K content I have set up to share with him via PLEX, then I can start a convo about getting a Lumagen into the mix and getting some proper DTM going with the RS600.


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## Die Zwei

OzHDHT said:


> Mind you I'm still trying to see him get 4K video circulating properly through Crestron in his house, due to fact whole capability has been dumbed down to handle a single out of date 1080p only TV in his living room.


Mh, don´t see a reason not to run a mixed 4K/1080p setup...


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## OzHDHT

Die Zwei said:


> Mh, don´t see a reason not to run a mixed 4K/1080p setup...


Might want to ask his Crestron guy that, it's not my area of expertise. I'm told the system is held back by the lowest resolution TV and that TV screws up if the system is set to 4K distribution..


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## aguy

OzHDHT said:


> Might want to ask his Crestron guy that, it's not my area of expertise. I'm told the system is held back by the lowest resolution TV and that TV screws up if the system is set to 4K distribution..


This is off topic. But yea it depends on which crestron products are in use. Some don’t auto scale so if there is a mixed 4k and 1080 environment they would need to use the right endpoints with scaling ability. 

I use all 4k capable displays so it’s not an issue. 


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## Die Zwei

aguy said:


> This is off topic. But yea it depends on which crestron products are in use. Some don’t auto scale so if there is a mixed 4k and 1080 environment they would need to use the right endpoints with scaling ability.


Well, that´s easy to solve and shouldn´t be a reason not to upgrade to 4K because one device doesn´t support it.
But, indeed - OT. Over and out - was just curious.


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## aguy

Die Zwei said:


> Well, that´s easy to solve and shouldn´t be a reason not to upgrade to 4K because one device doesn´t support it.
> But, indeed - OT. Over end out - was just curious.


All good. You’re right def shouldn’t stop someone upgrading. 


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## OzHDHT

aguy said:


> This is off topic. But yea it depends on which crestron products are in use. Some don’t auto scale so if there is a mixed 4k and 1080 environment they would need to use the right endpoints with scaling ability.
> 
> I use all 4k capable displays so it’s not an issue.


Forgive this slight extension of OT..
But yeah that would be my guess with it. Neither he or the guy who works on the system would be getting it wrong. He's a real stickler about stuff, goes deep into pro audio etc (Meyer Sound). Very different from myself who gave up on serious home automation after sinking a small fortune into a full household Control4 system(with all of it's idiosyncrasies) retrofitted to brand new 'Condo' style unit back in late 2014 only to have to leave it all behind when I sold the place barely mid 2015 when sold it. Nowadays I'm happy with Harmony and Google Home compatible gear 



Die Zwei said:


> Well, that´s easy to solve and shouldn´t be a reason not to upgrade to 4K because one device doesn´t support it.
> But, indeed - OT. Over end out - was just curious.


Bit of a moot point really, given he's literally about to swap out the one TV(if he hasn't already - I haven't been to his house in some weeks), especially since it's in his main living room so nothing will be 'holding back' his system. Then he can look at adding in a Radiance, which I'm pretty certain I can sell him on the merits of.


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## blake

aguy said:


> Great news.
> 
> I’ve pretty much got my crestron driver to the point of first release. It’s got some feedback features that the existing module doesn’t have.
> 
> If anyone would like to beta test it please let me know
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just curious - what did you program this driver to do with the Lumagen ?


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## aguy

blake said:


> Just curious - what did you program this driver to do with the Lumagen ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for asking. Below are the changes as compared with the currently available module. 

Changes


Added parsing of ZQI23
Added parsing of ZQI24
Changed reporting of all aspect ratios to analogs (in ZQI21 - ZQI24)
Changed reporting of vetical resolutions to analogs
Changed reporting of current input (physical and virtual) to analogs
Changed reporting of framerates to analogs
Added power on and off feedback
Added power warmup feedback (is high after power on started until power on complete)
Added query at program initialisation to get ititial status of power, inputs and memories
Added input aspect ratios 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.40
Added auto aspect enable, disable and reset (ZY550)
Added feedback for currently selected memory


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## thebland

OzHDHT said:


> Might want to ask his Crestron guy that, it's not my area of expertise. I'm told the system is held back by the lowest resolution TV and that TV screws up if the system is set to 4K distribution..


Is he using Crestron NVX for video distribution? I had some issues with mixed set up as well - could always over come but I finally changed my last TV to 4K and all is good with 4K HDR to all TVs (though all TVs in my honm are not HDR capable). Resolution of the one 1080P TV caused issues with ATV and KScape but not cable boxes.


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## Mike_WI

*FW* *071021- Posted 072321 *
Small change to use the auto aspect 2.35/2.40 merge information with the newly added graphics flag aspect indicator. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


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## blake

Mike_WI said:


> *FW* *071021- Posted 072321 *
> Small change to use the auto aspect 2.35/2.40 merge information with the newly added graphics flag aspect indicator.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


If auto aspect merge 2.35/2.40 is ON, does that mean 2.35 source content is automatically scaled to 2.40 by Lumagen … or vice versa?


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## Die Zwei

blake said:


> If auto aspect merge 2.35/2.40 is ON, does that mean 2.35 source content is automatically scaled to 2.40 by Lumagen … or vice versa?


You have to scale to the larger (wider) format, because otherwise, you´d end up with bars on top and bottom (given a 2.40 screen).


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## Surge2018

I have Never had any dropouts. 
2 years with a Lumagen 4242 and the better part of this year with the 5348.
Oppo 203, XBOX X, PS5, Apple TV 4K (both new and last year’s models).
Connected using Tibutaries 2m regular and Pro versions.
All sources connected to Lumagen.
Lumagen audio (only) output to Denon 8500H.

I am not just lucky. This is not an inherent problem with the Radiance Pro, since in ~2000 hours of viewing I can attest that there have been zero dropouts.


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## Surge2018

docrog said:


> With the countless posts here pertaining to multiple audio processors having apparent intermittent incompatibility with the audio stream from the Radiance Pro, irrespective of length or quality of interconnects, it's a mystery to me why Lumagen steadfastly clings to proclaiming the video pathway/configuration which forces that outcome as "preferred". Is the jitter experienced by the end user with the typical processor of posters here that obvious when the Lumagen is no longer part of the audio stream???? I'd guess NOT, since many here currently send audio from the video source directly to their high end AVR/pre-pro and I can't remember anyone posting that they felt that their (rock solid synched) audio was in some way of suboptimal quality because it wasn't first routed through the RP.


Actually, I posted this before. I think it was you, @docrog who argued with me then and seemed to prefer to ignore my comments. Ignoring something does not make it go away 
Video and audio quality noticeably improved when I placed the Lumagen first, after the sources. This is the recommended setup, as you know.
I don’t understand what you don’t “get” here. Any time you place _something_ in the A/V chain, you are going to lose quality. The one exception is if that something reclocks or otherwise cleans up the signal. But that is not the case with any AVR I know of.
Jitter, etc., make a difference. Otherwise, the 5348 would not exist.


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## Surge2018

pentibum said:


> I bought a 4242 a month ago now, and have been fighting audio sync issues. I finally figured out what was happening, and was able to find a solution and wanted to post it for others if they were having a similar issue. Also, maybe there is a better solution I have not tried??
> 
> My issue is that whenever the apple or the ub820 switched to 24 HZ, the audio would go out of sync. Trying to fix the sync thru the A/V delay in the lumagen only seemed to make it worse.
> The only way I have found to resolve the issue is to force 60 Hz for both sources. Then everything is in sync and fine.
> 
> My sources are a Apple TV 4k and a Panasonic UB820. They both currently input to the Lumagen 4242. The video outputs to my JVC rs520 and the audio goes to my Pioneer sc-97 receiver.
> For cables, I had all 2m Blue Jeans HDMI Cables first, then tried all 2m Monoprice 18Ghz cables. Both had the same issue, but I had to check.
> 
> My next step is to try routing the hdmi audio out from the ub820 direct to the receiver and keep the video running to the lumagen. This could resolve possibly be a solution for the UB820.
> Since the apple does not have separate outputs, I think I am stuck at 60Hz with it. Unless there is another solution out there?


I your force 60Hz you are going to degrade the image quality. You should maintain the refresh of the source all the way to your display (e.g., 24Hz). 
Audio sync is just solved through a bit of trail and error. With Apple TV, there is an automatic delay setting which uses your iPhone as the mic and sets delay automatically. I have seen delay need to be adjusted from time to time, but usually it is a constant.


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## fatherom

Surge2018 said:


> I am not just lucky. This is not an inherent problem with the Radiance Pro, since in ~2000 hours of viewing I can attest that there have been zero dropouts.


And that is your experience with your equipment. Please don't presume to take that one experience and make a global conclusion from it, as if what happens for you happens for everybody. It is arrogant if one does that. My experience is different than yours.


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## OzHDHT

thebland said:


> Is he using Crestron NVX for video distribution? I had some issues with mixed set up as well - could always over come but I finally changed my last TV to 4K and all is good with 4K HDR to all TVs (though all TVs in my honm are not HDR capable). Resolution of the one 1080P TV caused issues with ATV and KScape but not cable boxes.


As I was trying to indicate there, I couldn't tell you, I don't have that kind of knowledge of his Crestron system. My mate would probably know the specs on his system though. I do know he always goes top spec, but then again he's had Crestron for a long time, so no idea about what he's upgraded on the video side of it over time. Sounds very much like what you're describing though, so I'd hazard a guess he's probably running the same.


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## KorbenDallas2021

Surge2018 said:


> I have Never had any dropouts.
> 2 years with a Lumagen 4242 and the better part of this year with the 5348.
> Oppo 203, XBOX X, PS5, Apple TV 4K (both new and last year’s models).
> Connected using Tibutaries 2m regular and Pro versions.
> All sources connected to Lumagen.
> Lumagen audio (only) output to Denon 8500H.
> 
> I am not just lucky. This is not an inherent problem with the Radiance Pro, since in ~2000 hours of viewing I can attest that there have been zero dropouts.


Its good to hear yours works, doesn’t help anyone else who has the issue though. It’s like calling the fire department to say your house is on fire for the operator to tell you theirs isn’t 😂

Regardless of the optimal configuration in theory, for many of us if the lumagen is in the audio chain there are drop outs, without there are none. It may not be the ideal configuration but it’s the only one that works for me. I don’t see any difference in normal viewing, maybe it depends on your receiver.


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## OzHDHT

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Its good to hear yours works, doesn’t help anyone else who has the issue though. It’s like calling the fire department to say your house is on fire for the operator to tell you theirs isn’t 😂
> 
> Regardless of the optimal configuration in theory, for many of us if the lumagen is in the audio chain there are drop outs, without there are none. It may not be the ideal configuration but it’s the only one that works for me. I don’t see any difference in normal viewing, maybe it depends on your receiver.


Perhaps rather than jumping on someone else's post like that (in your first month here), perhaps it's worth noting he does advise his system config and equipment, which is useful for comparison sake. The more feedback that's shared the better opportunity there will be for those affected to come up with a solution. To date it's noted there are quite a few people with Trinnovs for example that are seeing regular issues. Other AVP/AVRs less so it would seem. In my setup, which I think I've noted previously with all sources routed via Lumagen and audio fed separately to MX160, I've never had these kinds of issues fortunately.


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## steelman1991

OzHDHT said:


> Perhaps rather than jumping on someone else's post like that (in your first month here), perhaps it's worth noting he does advise his system config and equipment, which is useful for comparison sake. The more feedback that's shared the better opportunity there will be for those affected to come up with a solution. To date it's noted there are quite a few people with Trinnovs for example that are seeing regular issues. Other AVP/AVRs less so it would seem. In my setup, which I think I've noted previously with all sources routed via Lumagen and audio fed separately to MX160, I've never had these kinds of issues fortunately.


Oh “Uber poster” alert. Not sure someone’s posting history has any relevance to his opinions or experience. 

For what it’s worth I’ve had audio dropouts with the following Pioneer SC-LX89, Emotiva RMC-1, Marantz 8805 and Trinnov Alt16 and cables from Tributaries, Monoprice, AudioQuest amongst others.

Move the Lumagen to after the processor and magically the problem is solved. With the exact same equipment and cables - your welcome to deduce from that where the issue lies, but I know what my opinion is and it isn’t processor or cables.


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## EVH78

Why not just open an "Audio Dropouts with Lumagen Radiance Pro" thread? People could compare their gear specifically and get better help. Might be better to track down the issues that way...


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## garyolearysteele

EVH78 said:


> Why not just open an "Audio Dropouts with Lumagen Radiance Pro" thread? People could compare their gear specifically and get better help. Might better to track down the issues that way...


It could be an idea, I’ve been comparing notes privately trying to find a solution. Perhaps setting up a thread immortalises the problem and the lumagen developers, owners and partners might not appreciate what might be considered negative press, I don’t know. It’s certainly frustrating, but speaking to people about it nobody is anti lumagen, in fact it’s the opposite. Here in the UK we’ve all had great experiences with the local Mr Lumagen, Gordon, who has been extremely helpful and professional often going out of his way to send cables and offer advice etc, like all of his clients, Id recommend him to anyone. Generally we’re happy. But this is a tough one, feels like a dead end and it’s frustrating.

Among the group of people with the issue we all have different processors, have tried cables of different lengths and brands, I must have tried 10 at least, all certified, from 2 to 7.6m. I’ve followed every bit of advice I can reasonably do as have the others. Replacing my receiver was just a step too far, I’d do it, but it doesn’t have an issue without the lumagen in place.

It does turn into arguments on here, I think because it’s a passionate user base who appreciate the technology and the work of Jim, Patrick and the calibrators who install them. I think it keeps coming up because we’re hoping this problem will be reviewed with a fresh perspective, there are 7 updates on the lumagen site that fix audio drop outs, so it’s not unheard of that a problem like this can be fixed nor is it always environmental. We’re giving it a good go to try find a solution without constantly posting publicly, any help or ideas are always appreciated, cables are so often the issue, but it’s not always.

Thanks everyone for your opinions and advice, we’ll find a solution I’m sure.


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## Kris Deering

I wanted to swing back around on the Lumagen audio drops. First off, I know that anything not working 100% is frustrating, I've been there with LOTS of equipment many times. I also understand the frustration that many have with hearing "it is likely a cable issue" so many times, especially when they used the same ones before with good results. Jim has already spoken on why cables can be an issue with vs without a Lumagen many times already, so I am not going to keep beating that horse. 

The other issue here is that the Lumagen doesn't do anything to the audio other than pass it on. There is no processing being done. Also, the consistency of this issue is all over the place. We see folks here that have near identical setups to what I'm personally using with zero issue saying they are having nothing but issues. Lumagen (or I) can't recreate them, so how do you troubleshoot it? I find it frustrating that quite a bit of the time when I try to help out with these issues I always find out there is a lot more going on than what is being said. The person will say they are doing X and Y already based on previous input, only to find out they haven't done a lot of it (haven't tried cables, firmware is really old, etc). There is also the fact that you are talking about a mix of different HDMI components and HDMI in general sucks. For example, here is a quote from an email I got yesterday from a client that is looking to buy a Lumagen (but hasn't bought it yet):

"Interestingly, I’ve been using the AppleTV for 7-8 weeks without issue. And out of nowhere last Saturday night I started getting video dropouts. And now they seem to be happening relatively regularly and it’s driving me crazy. An online search found a decent amount of complaints of people having the exact same issue, but I haven’t come across a clear solution. It happens whether I’m using RGB or YCbCr. I updated the software to the latest beta and it still occurred. I tried reseating the hdmi cable and now I’m waiting to see if that does anything. Haven’t tried a new cable yet. If I had added the lumagen before this started I would have thought it was adding the lumagen that caused the issue because it was fine for weeks and then suddenly, boom, problem."

I see similar feedback for lots of things. Stuff like "I've been using the Lumagen for months/years with no issue and now I'm having constant issues or frequent issues". We try to go through troubleshooting steps and eventually I can solve most of the issues, but the more I dig the more I find things that could be causing the issue. Stuff like leaving sources on all the time that are feeding the Lumagen but not being watched. Zombie mode for HDMI is a real thing and both displays and sources can cause it (especially ones like ATV or cable boxes that people leave on and they go into weird states). 

Ultimately I think that if you are having issues you should be going directly to your dealer with them. They should be making an effort to try and troubleshoot the problem and if it can't be solved, discussing the next steps. That is kind of the point of a dealer. Next up is Lumagen support directly. And please, if you are having issues, try and be as honest as possible about your EXACT situation when it comes to sources, cables (makes and lengths), and the firmware condition of the Lumagen. Again, I have A LOT of clients with Lumagen processors and only a handful at best that have come to me with this issue. I've been able to eliminate it for most of them so far, though I think I have like 1-2 right now that continue to have issues though I've also continued to find different things they are doing that I wouldn't advise that may be the culprit.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I wanted to swing back around on the Lumagen audio drops. First off, I know that anything not working 100% is frustrating, I've been there with LOTS of equipment many times. I also understand the frustration that many have with hearing "it is likely a cable issue" so many times, especially when they used the same ones before with good results. Jim has already spoken on why cables can be an issue with vs without a Lumagen many times already, so I am not going to keep beating that horse.
> 
> The other issue here is that the Lumagen doesn't do anything to the audio other than pass it on. There is no processing being done. Also, the consistency of this issue is all over the place. We see folks here that have near identical setups to what I'm personally using with zero issue saying they are having nothing but issues. Lumagen (or I) can't recreate them, so how do you troubleshoot it? I find it frustrating that quite a bit of the time when I try to help out with these issues I always find out there is a lot more going on than what is being said. The person will say they are doing X and Y already based on previous input, only to find out they haven't done a lot of it (haven't tried cables, firmware is really old, etc). There is also the fact that you are talking about a mix of different HDMI components and HDMI in general sucks. For example, here is a quote from an email I got yesterday from a client that is looking to buy a Lumagen (but hasn't bought it yet):
> 
> "Interestingly, I’ve been using the AppleTV for 7-8 weeks without issue. And out of nowhere last Saturday night I started getting video dropouts. And now they seem to be happening relatively regularly and it’s driving me crazy. An online search found a decent amount of complaints of people having the exact same issue, but I haven’t come across a clear solution. It happens whether I’m using RGB or YCbCr. I updated the software to the latest beta and it still occurred. I tried reseating the hdmi cable and now I’m waiting to see if that does anything. Haven’t tried a new cable yet. If I had added the lumagen before this started I would have thought it was adding the lumagen that caused the issue because it was fine for weeks and then suddenly, boom, problem."
> 
> I see similar feedback for lots of things. Stuff like "I've been using the Lumagen for months/years with no issue and now I'm having constant issues or frequent issues". We try to go through troubleshooting steps and eventually I can solve most of the issues, but the more I dig the more I find things that could be causing the issue. Stuff like leaving sources on all the time that are feeding the Lumagen but not being watched. Zombie mode for HDMI is a real thing and both displays and sources can cause it (especially ones like ATV or cable boxes that people leave on and they go into weird states).
> 
> Ultimately I think that if you are having issues you should be going directly to your dealer with them. They should be making an effort to try and troubleshoot the problem and if it can't be solved, discussing the next steps. That is kind of the point of a dealer. Next up is Lumagen support directly. And please, if you are having issues, try and be as honest as possible about your EXACT situation when it comes to sources, cables (makes and lengths), and the firmware condition of the Lumagen. Again, I have A LOT of clients with Lumagen processors and only a handful at best that have come to me with this issue. I've been able to eliminate it for most of them so far, though I think I have like 1-2 right now that continue to have issues though I've also continued to find different things they are doing that I wouldn't advise that may be the culprit.


Agree with this. Wanted to add some more perspective.

Kris, I'm a client of yours. You and I have chatted about my audio drop outs a bit, I've also worked with Jim over the phone. We tried some things, without success, unfortunately.

My setup is pretty basic (it's in my sig). There are a few factors that have made it such that I've left this issue on the back burner for now (and compensated by bypassing the lumagen for audio):


Time. I don't have a ton of time to try various configurations and let them bake and see if they work. I watch a few movies a week (maybe three at most) and when I do, I want as optimal an experience as I can get. This is admittedly my issue; at some point, I'll have time to circle back and look into the audio drop outs more.
Money: My situation has changed from where it was 3 years ago. The recommended HDMI cables are a bit pricey, and it sounds like others have had to try longer and longer lengths (and may still have the issue after all that).
Country: I live in Canada. Importing/getting Tributaries cables is a bit more complex due to where I live (and more costly).
I mention all this because it's possible there are others out there with this issue that aren't vocal, or have learned to live with it, or can't do much about it right now.

Chris


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> The other issue here is that the Lumagen doesn't do anything to the audio other than pass it on. There is no processing being done.


Kris, I don't understand why you've stated this categorically. The following is a direct quote from the Lumagen RP white paper (posted on-line at Lumagen.com) with my bolding and underlining: *"The advantage the Radiance Pro has compared to traditional dejitter circuits is it completely regenerates the HDMI audio output using a very low jitter crystal clock chip for the HDMI audio clock, and then passes the HDMI signal through two stages of PLL dejitter circuits."*

To the layman, this certainly reads as though the RP is *not* a direct pass through device for audio as you've posted. In any case, I'm certainly not in a position to determine whether or not these manipulations are a potential cause for user reported audio drop outs when paired with their existing audio processors.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Kris, I don't understand why you've stated this categorically. The following is a direct quote from the Lumagen RP white paper (posted on-line at Lumagen.com) with my bolding and underlining: *"The advantage the Radiance Pro has compared to traditional dejitter circuits is it completely regenerates the HDMI audio output using a very low jitter crystal clock chip for the HDMI audio clock, and then passes the HDMI signal through two stages of PLL dejitter circuits."*
> 
> To the layman, this certainly reads as though the RP is *not* a direct pass through device for audio as you've posted. In any case, I'm certainly not in a position to determine whether or not these manipulations are a potential cause for user reported audio drop outs when paired with their existing audio processors.


Output clock vs processing is vastly different things. 



fatherom said:


> Agree with this. Wanted to add some more perspective.
> 
> Kris, I'm a client of yours. You and I have chatted about my audio drop outs a bit, I've also worked with Jim over the phone. We tried some things, without success, unfortunately.
> 
> My setup is pretty basic (it's in my sig). There are a few factors that have made it such that I've left this issue on the back burner for now (and compensated by bypassing the lumagen for audio):
> 
> 
> Time. I don't have a ton of time to try various configurations and let them bake and see if they work. I watch a few movies a week (maybe three at most) and when I do, I want as optimal an experience as I can get. This is admittedly my issue; at some point, I'll have time to circle back and look into the audio drop outs more.
> Money: My situation has changed from where it was 3 years ago. The recommended HDMI cables are a bit pricey, and it sounds like others have had to try longer and longer lengths (and may still have the issue after all that).
> Country: I live in Canada. Importing/getting Tributaries cables is a bit more complex due to where I live (and more costly).
> I mention all this because it's possible there are others out there with this issue that aren't vocal, or have learned to live with it, or can't do much about it right now.
> 
> Chris


Hi Chris. I'd have to look through my emails but I can't remember seeing anything from you recently. While Jim will always recommend the Tributaries cables based on his HDMI scope testing, I usually recommend specific cables from Monoprice. I feel they deliver consistent results and the cost is much lower. But if you reach out to me again, we can look at where you are at and see if we can figure out a way to get you back on track.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Hi Chris. I'd have to look through my emails but I can't remember seeing anything from you recently. While Jim will always recommend the Tributaries cables based on his HDMI scope testing, I usually recommend specific cables from Monoprice. I feel they deliver consistent results and the cost is much lower. But if you reach out to me again, we can look at where you are at and see if we can figure out a way to get you back on track.


Thanks Kris, that's very much appreciated.

It's been a fair while (more than 6 months?) since you and I chatted about this. No worries in the short-term though...my bypass of the lumagen for audio works fine for my current use case (couple movies a week). I'm semi-vocal in the forum here about this issue, only to lend another data point to the discussion.

VERY good to know about the monoprice...those are certainly cheaper and easier to get up here in the Great White North. Once covid is finally all done (and there are no more variants), I'm still hoping to coax you to come up here for a calibration (one of these years . At that stage, maybe it would make sense to revisit the audio drops I've experienced.


----------



## steelman1991

Kris Deering said:


> Output clock vs processing is vastly different things.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Chris. I'd have to look through my emails but I can't remember seeing anything from you recently. While Jim will always recommend the Tributaries cables based on his HDMI scope testing, I usually recommend specific cables from Monoprice. I feel they deliver consistent results and the cost is much lower. But if you reach out to me again, we can look at where you are at and see if we can figure out a way to get you back on track.


Without "Deep Diving" the thread (pun intended lol). Which of the Monoprice Cables do you recommend?


----------



## garyolearysteele

Kris Deering said:


> I wanted to swing back around on the Lumagen audio drops. First off, I know that anything not working 100% is frustrating, I've been there with LOTS of equipment many times. I also understand the frustration that many have with hearing "it is likely a cable issue" so many times, especially when they used the same ones before with good results. Jim has already spoken on why cables can be an issue with vs without a Lumagen many times already, so I am not going to keep beating that horse.
> 
> The other issue here is that the Lumagen doesn't do anything to the audio other than pass it on. There is no processing being done. Also, the consistency of this issue is all over the place. We see folks here that have near identical setups to what I'm personally using with zero issue saying they are having nothing but issues. Lumagen (or I) can't recreate them, so how do you troubleshoot it? I find it frustrating that quite a bit of the time when I try to help out with these issues I always find out there is a lot more going on than what is being said. The person will say they are doing X and Y already based on previous input, only to find out they haven't done a lot of it (haven't tried cables, firmware is really old, etc). There is also the fact that you are talking about a mix of different HDMI components and HDMI in general sucks. For example, here is a quote from an email I got yesterday from a client that is looking to buy a Lumagen (but hasn't bought it yet):
> 
> "Interestingly, I’ve been using the AppleTV for 7-8 weeks without issue. And out of nowhere last Saturday night I started getting video dropouts. And now they seem to be happening relatively regularly and it’s driving me crazy. An online search found a decent amount of complaints of people having the exact same issue, but I haven’t come across a clear solution. It happens whether I’m using RGB or YCbCr. I updated the software to the latest beta and it still occurred. I tried reseating the hdmi cable and now I’m waiting to see if that does anything. Haven’t tried a new cable yet. If I had added the lumagen before this started I would have thought it was adding the lumagen that caused the issue because it was fine for weeks and then suddenly, boom, problem."
> 
> I see similar feedback for lots of things. Stuff like "I've been using the Lumagen for months/years with no issue and now I'm having constant issues or frequent issues". We try to go through troubleshooting steps and eventually I can solve most of the issues, but the more I dig the more I find things that could be causing the issue. Stuff like leaving sources on all the time that are feeding the Lumagen but not being watched. Zombie mode for HDMI is a real thing and both displays and sources can cause it (especially ones like ATV or cable boxes that people leave on and they go into weird states).
> 
> Ultimately I think that if you are having issues you should be going directly to your dealer with them. They should be making an effort to try and troubleshoot the problem and if it can't be solved, discussing the next steps. That is kind of the point of a dealer. Next up is Lumagen support directly. And please, if you are having issues, try and be as honest as possible about your EXACT situation when it comes to sources, cables (makes and lengths), and the firmware condition of the Lumagen. Again, I have A LOT of clients with Lumagen processors and only a handful at best that have come to me with this issue. I've been able to eliminate it for most of them so far, though I think I have like 1-2 right now that continue to have issues though I've also continued to find different things they are doing that I wouldn't advise that may be the culprit.


I can honestly say that the group of folk who are trying to solve this now are spending money and time trying to solve the issue. We all want this to work, we’ve checked power, cables, firmware and everything we can think of, there’s definitely no agenda other than solving the problem and moving on. I’m sure some folk lie about troubleshooting to move past a step they feel isn’t valid, but the guys im chatting with are not doing that. Of course generally most don’t have the issue, absolutely HDMI and HDCP are a total pain, the latter being as a effective as a fart in a windstorm, HDR specs make no sense etc, it’s only gonna get worse as 8k comes around despite again making no sense whatsoever.

The RP only passes audio, but go to the firmware page and search for “drop” and so you’ll see 7 hits for updates fixing audio drop outs. 

The common statement that everything used to work, we appreciate isn’t as straightforward as that with so many variables. But it’s beyond that, we can’t find a fix except removing the lumagen which does fix it. In the main I and others have been trying to solve this for over a year and have changed everything we can reasonably change, including the RP itself.

We’ll continue to work on this privately, if we get a solution we’ll be on here with it ASAP. We’ve worked with our installers, as I say they have worked hard to help, but there’s only so much they can do.

I know what it’s like, I own a business and when people complain online I am naturally defensive, but we’re fans and just stuck with an issue we can’t solve. I hope we can work together to get a solution. There is one, all my other devices already have it, but I’ve no idea what it is or if the RP can also emulate it or if it’s just an unsolvable incompatibility.

thanks again
Gary


----------



## Kris Deering

garyolearysteele said:


> I can honestly say that the group of folk who are trying to solve this now are spending money and time trying to solve the issue. We all want this to work, we’ve checked power, cables, firmware and everything we can think of, there’s definitely no agenda other than solving the problem and moving on. I’m sure some folk lie about troubleshooting to move past a step they feel isn’t valid, but the guys im chatting with are not doing that. Of course generally most don’t have the issue, absolutely HDMI and HDCP are a total pain, the latter being as a effective as a fart in a windstorm, HDR specs make no sense etc, it’s only gonna get worse as 8k comes around despite again making no sense whatsoever.
> 
> The RP only passes audio, but go to the firmware page and search for “drop” and so you’ll see 7 hits for updates fixing audio drop outs.
> 
> The common statement that everything used to work, we appreciate isn’t as straightforward as that with so many variables. But it’s beyond that, we can’t find a fix except removing the lumagen which does fix it. In the main I and others have been trying to solve this for over a year and have changed everything we can reasonably change, including the RP itself.
> 
> We’ll continue to work on this privately, if we get a solution we’ll be on here with it ASAP. We’ve worked with our installers, as I say they have worked hard to help, but there’s only so much they can do.
> 
> I know what it’s like, I own a business and when people complain online I am naturally defensive, but we’re fans and just stuck with an issue we can’t solve. I hope we can work together to get a solution. There is one, all my other devices already have it, but I’ve no idea what it is or if the RP can also emulate it or if it’s just an unsolvable incompatibility.
> 
> thanks again
> Gary


I get it, and I hope you find a solution for your issue. Out of curiosity, what is the age of the Lumagen you are using? I'd be curious to see if the I/O cards are ones with or without the microwave caps. If I was trying to troubleshoot a group, I would be looking for correlation between setups to see what could be the common issue. I would also start trying to eliminate variables. So if you have a player (Strato or BD player), eliminate all other sources and just use that for the time being and see if you consistently get the same drop. Does it stay or go away? If it stays, move onto another source and see what that does. Is it source dependent? Is the drop always the same audio codec, etc. 

When I put my Trinnov in, I was getting a lot of drops and it was really frustrating. I knew I wasn't having the issue before (Had the same Lumagen in my setup for quite some time), so I figured it was the Trinnov. Had them look at HDMI stuff and they found I was behind quite a bit in microcode AND firmware. But that didn't fix it. Then I started noticing that every drop or issue I had seemed to be an issue with a DTS track or if I was using DTS for my upmixing. I switched to use the up mixer inherent with the track (so Dolby Surround for Dolby, DTS X for DTS) and the drops decreased. Then I noticed that just about every drop I had was DTS related. I talked to Trinnov with the info and they said they had known issues with DTS, which they failed to mention to me before. Then they gave me a beta firmware and I think since then I've had one drop out (and it was a DTS track). But I use an Oppo, AppleTV and a Strato all the time. I play content in my room daily with no drops at all and it isn't like I have some special equipment, it is the same stuff I recommend to people all the time. Since this thread started picking up the audio drop steam, I've actually heard from a lot of my clients chiming in on how they don't ever have the issue but I've only had I think 1 or 2 that have chimed in saying they do. One has been resolved and the other is trying some recommendations I had for him.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Output clock vs processing is vastly different things.


I was only mentioning that, according to the white paper, the RP is not simply passing through audio as you'd indicated. Whether the extra layer due to Lumagen's anti-jitter clock interactions could cause interactivity issues with certain video sources & audio processors may be in the realm of electrical engineering (possibly a similar condition related by those posters who've commented that, even in pass through mode, AVR/pre-pro devices will always add video noise if positioned prior to the RP).


----------



## thebland

Kris Deering said:


> Output clock vs processing is vastly different things.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Chris. I'd have to look through my emails but I can't remember seeing anything from you recently. While Jim will always recommend the Tributaries cables based on his HDMI scope testing, I usually recommend specific cables from Monoprice. I feel they deliver consistent results and the cost is much lower. But if you reach out to me again, we can look at where you are at and see if we can figure out a way to get you back on track.


Kris

What beta Trinnov firmware version are you using? Trinnov or SDP-75? I am having issues as well. Long time. Thanks! Good info on DTS.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Kris Deering said:


> I get it, and I hope you find a solution for your issue. Out of curiosity, what is the age of the Lumagen you are using? I'd be curious to see if the I/O cards are ones with or without the microwave caps. If I was trying to troubleshoot a group, I would be looking for correlation between setups to see what could be the common issue. I would also start trying to eliminate variables. So if you have a player (Strato or BD player), eliminate all other sources and just use that for the time being and see if you consistently get the same drop. Does it stay or go away? If it stays, move onto another source and see what that does. Is it source dependent? Is the drop always the same audio codec, etc.
> 
> When I put my Trinnov in, I was getting a lot of drops and it was really frustrating. I knew I wasn't having the issue before (Had the same Lumagen in my setup for quite some time), so I figured it was the Trinnov. Had them look at HDMI stuff and they found I was behind quite a bit in microcode AND firmware. But that didn't fix it. Then I started noticing that every drop or issue I had seemed to be an issue with a DTS track or if I was using DTS for my upmixing. I switched to use the up mixer inherent with the track (so Dolby Surround for Dolby, DTS X for DTS) and the drops decreased. Then I noticed that just about every drop I had was DTS related. I talked to Trinnov with the info and they said they had known issues with DTS, which they failed to mention to me before. Then they gave me a beta firmware and I think since then I've had one drop out (and it was a DTS track). But I use an Oppo, AppleTV and a Strato all the time. I play content in my room daily with no drops at all and it isn't like I have some special equipment, it is the same stuff I recommend to people all the time. Since this thread started picking up the audio drop steam, I've actually heard from a lot of my clients chiming in on how they don't ever have the issue but I've only had I think 1 or 2 that have chimed in saying they do. One has been resolved and the other is trying some recommendations I had for him.


I started with one of the 4x series, the one with 1 video output. Then I upgraded to the 5x in a hope the additional control over voltage swing might help but it’s the same. I have Apple TV, Zappiti, Sky Q, Xbox Series X, PS5, UB9000 blu-ray. I’ve had drops on all but the game consoles but I don’t use them that much. I had them all plugged into an Arcam receiver, they all worked for 2 years and appropriately 3000 hours without a drop (game consoles changed in that time). I then installed the he RP and the drops started. Replaced all the cables with Belden FE certified 3m to try solve, then a long list of others including monoprice certified high speed etc.

everything is powered from the same outlet, the other folk with the same symptoms have different equipment but the exact same drops on the face of it. It’s so frustrating because I’m not sure what else I can do now.


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## Karl Maga

Well, this has certainly become the Audio Drop forum. If Momma aint happy, nobody's happy...


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## gdfein

For certain. I have 5348 on order and as I follow the thread it is hard not be a little apprehensive of what experience I’ll have. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

steelman1991 said:


> Oh “Uber poster” alert. Not sure someone’s posting history has any relevance to his opinions or experience.
> 
> For what it’s worth I’ve had audio dropouts with the following Pioneer SC-LX89, Emotiva RMC-1, Marantz 8805 and Trinnov Alt16 and cables from Tributaries, Monoprice, AudioQuest amongst others.
> 
> Move the Lumagen to after the processor and magically the problem is solved. With the exact same equipment and cables - your welcome to deduce from that where the issue lies, but I know what my opinion is and it isn’t processor or cables.



Yeah good on you mate👍. How did I know someone would want to chip me on the fact I dare make mention of someone's posting history (rather than more revelant recent membership status). It's not a great look is all and the fact is there was useful information shared in the post he gave a spray...

I don't know that everyone here has confirmed in the case of some processors such as the Trinnov, that placing it post the Lumagen is a definite fix - I could be mistaken though and obviously people like Kris Deering have had a lot of direct involvement it as he's gone to some length to explain just a little earlier. It's definitely been my configuration preference to keep the AVP/AVR out of the video chain if at all possible (with the Lumagen handling the video switching duties). On the other hand I do utilise an MRX 1170 in the video chain in my other system that doesn't have a Lumagen (given there's nothing else there to assist with video source switching).


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## bjorg

For those with a Trinnov, I just fount out that you can connect via telnet to it. From windows, it looks like this:

telnet 192.168.0.180 44100
Welcome on Trinnov Optimizer (Version 4.2.16.4, ID 12345678)

Then announce the client

id testing

That will spew a lot of status information, which you can ignore for this exercise.

Once connected, you will see any audio codec negotiations like this:

DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER PCM UPMIXER Dolby Surround
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER PCM UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER PCM UPMIXER Dolby Surround
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER Dolby Surround
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER Dolby Surround
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 0 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER Dolby Surround
DECODER NONAUDIO 1 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 1 PLAYABLE 1 DECODER ATMOS TrueHD UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 1 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 1 PLAYABLE 1 DECODER ATMOS TrueHD UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 1 PLAYABLE 0 DECODER none UPMIXER none
DECODER NONAUDIO 1 PLAYABLE 1 DECODER ATMOS TrueHD UPMIXER none

It would be interesting to see if anything shows up during the audio drops. I just discovered the telnet protocol today and haven't tried to capture a drop out yet.


----------



## Kurvenal

This is not a post about audio dropouts, although I am counting myself among the fortunate users of Trinnov and Lumagen who has not had that problem. 

My issue is loss of picture (but not audio) with my ATV when I back up using the Menu button after watching something, most recently on Netflix, probably triggering a display mode change. This is different from not getting a picture on startup when the Lumagen has difficulty syncing with the ATV when trying to wake it up out of zombie mode. The only way that I have found to get out of this is to switch source to my Strato and then come back to the ATV. 

Any suggestions?


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## Die Zwei

bjorg said:


> It would be interesting to see if anything shows up during the audio drops. I just discovered the telnet protocol today and haven't tried to capture a drop out yet.


The more interesting information is only available to Trinnov support. I don´t think the dropouts mentioned here will show up in the standard telnet output since i don´t think the dropouts are caused by a resync (which takes longer on the Trinnov).
There´s a HDMI specific logfile that is not available via telnet, but you can ask Trinnov support to look at it remotely after a dropout happened.
You need to ensure the Trinnov stays powered on because the HDMI.log is cleared upon restart.

Some more thoughts to the dropouts:
Kris states the Lumagen doesn´t do audio processing. However, could it be that the dropouts are just a symptom of a video/HDMI issue?

Another thing i found in one of our installations is that a washing machine introduced interference when switching off(!). The customer´s wife used to fill and start the machine before watching a movie. Machine did its job during the movie and switched off => voilá dropout.
So it might be worth to search outside A/V equipment.


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## WCEaglesMan

Kurvenal said:


> This is not a post about audio dropouts, although I am counting myself among the fortunate users of Trinnov and Lumagen who has not had that problem.


Correct ... however I think it is right and proper that users post their experiences here. I think that both Trinnov and Lumagen support should be used though so that expert help can be given. I have experienced a very rare drop out but not at a level that is a concern for me and yes I have a Trinnov Altitude16 with all sources (Foxtel IQ4, Oppo 204 and Apple 4K TV) going to the Radiance Pro first. When it does happen it is for less than 0.5 seconds.


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## WCEaglesMan

WestCoastEaglesMan said:


> Correct ... however I think it is right and proper that users post their experiences here. I think that both Trinnov and Lumagen support should be used though so that expert help can be given. I have experienced a very rare drop out but not at a level that is a concern for me and yes I have a Trinnov Altitude16 with all sources (Foxtel IQ4, Oppo 204 and Apple 4K TV) going to the Radiance Pro first. When it does happen it is for less than 0.5 seconds.


oops make that an Oppo 203 !!


----------



## Michael-S

Kurvenal said:


> This is not a post about audio dropouts, although I am counting myself among the fortunate users of Trinnov and Lumagen who has not had that problem.
> 
> My issue is loss of picture (but not audio) with my ATV when I back up using the Menu button after watching something, most recently on Netflix, probably triggering a display mode change. This is different from not getting a picture on startup when the Lumagen has difficulty syncing with the ATV when trying to wake it up out of zombie mode. The only way that I have found to get out of this is to switch source to my Strato and then come back to the ATV.
> 
> Any suggestions?


I have my control system put the ATV in Rest Mode when switching away from it. I do this with all sources except Roku. Since I do not experience issues with syncing, that _might_ be a factor.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kurvenal said:


> My issue is loss of picture (but not audio) with my ATV when I back up using the Menu button after watching something, most recently on Netflix, probably triggering a display mode change. This is different from not getting a picture on startup when the Lumagen has difficulty syncing with the ATV when trying to wake it up out of zombie mode. The only way that I have found to get out of this is to switch source to my Strato and then come back to the ATV.


Yep, i guess this is mainly after watching HDR content and auto framerate is on?
I also noticed sync can take a loong time, looks as if the ATV is doing multiple changes in the signal. So potentially first switching back to SDR and atfer that switching to the standard menu framerate (50 or 60Hz).
How long did you wait? I found sometimes it can take to over a minute until the picture is back. I found that the other day when i was distracted by something else and all of a sudden the picture came back.


----------



## Jan.2000

Well, it takes some time, but one minute seems very long. About 5-10 seconds maybe.

I can read a lot about audio dropouts, but does anybody else have problems with video dropouts (Radiance Pro 4242-C)?
I get them all the time and they don't go away until I switch to another source and then switch back. I've already replaced the cables, unfortunately without success. It doesn't matter which source I start with either. Always the same behaviour.


----------



## Clark Burk

steelman1991 said:


> Without "Deep Diving" the thread (pun intended lol). Which of the Monoprice Cables do you recommend?


Curious about this also. Now that Monoprice is carrying 8k certified ultra high speed cables for a little more than the regular 4K certified does it make sense to get these to future proof a little or can they cause issues the same as using a cable that’s too short? I noticed that they are supposed to have a bit more resistance to EMI but I have no idea if that is even a issue.


----------



## Karl Maga

gdfein said:


> For certain. I have 5348 on order and as I follow the thread it is hard not be a little apprehensive of what experience I’ll have.


Fine choice! I hope you enjoy it as much as almost all of us do.

Reading this thread, I can see why you would be apprehensive, BUT, keep in mind that many Radince Pro owners don’t have these issues.

The perception portrayed by the recent onslaught of repeated and redundant complaints gives the concern disproportionate emphasis. That one of the small cadre of the vociferous has only recently joined, and has only complained (no other posts in any thread) further misrepresents reality.


----------



## steelman1991

gdfein said:


> For certain. I have 5348 on order and as I follow the thread it is hard not be a little apprehensive of what experience I’ll have.


Please don't be put off by the postings by myself and others in this thread with drop-out issues. The advantages of ownership far outweigh the issues I and the others are having. The one thing we all have in common is we love our Lumagen.


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## audioguy

steelman1991 said:


> Please don't be put off by the postings by myself and others in this thread with drop-out issues. The advantages of ownership far outweigh the issues I and the others are having. The one thing we all have in common is we love our Lumagen.


Agreed. All of the video upsides far outweigh the annoyance of audio dropouts.


----------



## bjorg

Jan.2000 said:


> Well, it takes some time, but one minute seems very long. About 5-10 seconds maybe.
> 
> I can read a lot about audio dropouts, but does anybody else have problems with video dropouts (Radiance Pro 4242-C)?
> I get them all the time and they don't go away until I switch to another source and then switch back. I've already replaced the cables, unfortunately without success. It doesn't matter which source I start with either. Always the same behaviour.


Video drop outs have not happened on my setup. Or at least not recently enough that I remember. Sorry.


----------



## jrp

I know dropouts are frustrating, but I do want to help those who have either audio or video lock-on or dropouts. I recently posted that those with an audio dropout should contact me directly at the lumagen.com support email. So far _one_ person has. Even if you have worked with me in the past on dropouts, please contact me again so we can continue to work on the issue. Posting here is not likely to help other than the standard "check your cables" and "check your house power" comments I have made before.

Things to consider if you have dropouts:

- If you have dropouts, and it takes a long time (over 20 to 30 seconds) for the picture to show, or to get sound, you are at the hairy edge of HDMI margin. Like it or not, the only solutions tend to be a better HDMI cable(s), or sometimes correcting power issues that create a ground loop or perhaps a "DC supply random AC phase offset." Or perhaps it is caused by other equipment in the house, such as washer/dryer, refrigerator, bathroom fan, etc, all of which have caused intermittent issues until house power was improved.

- I just received an email that a unit from a system with dropouts, that the client used as a trade-in, is now in another system and that system does not have any dropouts. Nothing at all against the person who had the dropouts. They after all only want to fix the dropouts. I mention this to again show these issues are system issues.

- It is possible that a specific Pro I/O chip is having an issue. While these are generally caused by some kind of power event, I mention this since a chip with such an issue in a Pro could cause a dropout issue for a specific unit, and that I/O card should be replaced. Hard to discover if this is possibly the issue though. If you think you might have a damaged I/O card, please contact me at the lumagen.com support email to discuss.

- All equipment should be on a single power circuit. This includes the projector. I strongly recommend a single large power conditioner drive all theater equipment. Better would be a single large toroidal power isolation transformer to drive everything. I realize this is expensive but it is something to consider. I just ordered a large toroidal isolation transformer for the Lumagen Demo Theater even though we are not having dropout issues. Cleaner power is never a bad thing.

- Using a grounding wire between each piece of equipment and your single power conditioner in a “star” configuration (i.e. all pieces have a wire directly to the power conditioner) can help if there are power issues. This insures any ground current goes through the ground wire rather than the HDMI cable.

- How old is your Radiance Pro? We have made a number of improvements over the years to take even less of the HDMI margin budget. The current 4XXX 18 GHz output is at 80% of spec (80 pS) and so the other device gets more than their fair share. You might consider an upgrade to the latest revision.

- If you have an early Beta (circa 2015 or 2016), you might consider a "like for like" upgrade to the latest "model year." I can give extra value for your unit if it is like-for-like (i.e. same I/O speed and configuration), and you can upgrade to 18 GHz at the same time. If you are not in the USA, you would work with local distributor. I work then with the distributor, and hopefully we can make something work if this is interesting to you.

-If your unit is two years old, or older, you likely do not have the microwave card upgrades in play. You might consider upgrading your input and output cards to the microwave version. Again if you are like-for-like (e.g. a 9 GHz output for a 9 GHz microwave capacitor version output) I can give a special price on the upgrade. We have seen that upgrading can help with lock-on or drop-out issues. This is again since the Pro can then takes even less of the HDMI margin leaving more for the other device. To see if you have microwave capacitor version you do have to remove the cover and look for a "Rev 1.3" or "Rev 1.4" sticker on each I/O card. Note: The 9 GHz input cards do not have a microwave version.

- One other thing we have noticed is some audio processors work better with audio and sound enabled. One example is the Datasat (and by extension the Monoprice HTP1 which is a rebadged Datasat). If you have a 4242 with an 18 GHz output, you cannot enable video on Output 1, but you could test with Output 2 with audio and video driving the audio processor and then the audio processor to the projector/TV. Even if you only do this as a test, it could provide good info. This issue is one reason I always discuss choosing a 9 GHz output card for a 4242. In my testing there is no video difference due to the excellent Pro output dither, but the 9 GHz output card allows audio and video to be active on Output 1 to the audio processor.

There are many factors that can affect HDMI connections. Often the best course is a decision-tree approach. This in turn is best accomplished on the phone. If you are international Google Duo Video Chat is free and works well. Please contact me by email at the lumagen.com support email, and we can set up a time to discuss on the phone.

Based on the comments here people having issues are a tiny fraction of one percent of the Radiance Pro systems out there. However, I definitely want to reduce this to as near zero as possible.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

jrp said:


> -If your unit is two years old, or older, you likely do not have the microwave card upgrades in play. You might consider upgrading your input and output cards to the microwave version. Again if you are like-for-like (e.g. a 9 GHz output for a 9 GHz microwave capacitor version output) I can give a special price on the upgrade. We have seen that upgrading can help with lock-on or drop-out issues. This is again since the Pro can then takes even less of the HDMI margin leaving more for the other device. To see if you have microwave capacitor version you do have to remove the cover and look for a "Rev 1.3" or "Rev 1.4" sticker on each I/O card. Note: The 9 GHz input cards do not have a microwave version.


I don’t have any drop outs or issues with audio, is this still worthwhile upgrading too? Or just leave it. I checked my version and it’s rev 1.2


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I don’t have any drop outs or issues with audio, is this still worthwhile upgrading too? Or just leave it. I checked my version and it’s rev 1.2


If it is working fine I do not think you need to upgrade to the latest revision.


----------



## jrp

I participated in a webinar yesterday with Murideo. Jason, from Murideo, will be putting the video up on YouTube later.

Today I went through the slides I presented and made a couple corrections. I am attaching the updated version of the slides for use as the new Radiance Pro Setup Slide Set.

If you catch an error I missed please let me know.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> I participated in a webinar yesterday with Murideo. Jason, from Murideo, will be putting the video up on YouTube later.
> 
> Today I went through the slides I presented and made a couple corrections. I am attaching the updated version of the slides for use as the new Radiance Pro Setup Slide Set.
> 
> If you catch an error I missed please let me know.


I see that one of the slides recommends enabling Rate Match. Does this recommendation apply to the new 5348 and use of latest JVC projectors? Or has this more to do with the sources? And which ones, specifically, have you encountered issues with?


----------



## aguy

Looking forward to the video @jrp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

I had quite a bit of trouble getting the Lumagen firmware to load onto the Radiance Pro today. Nothing I did worked - including boot mode. I always used the " com 3 " USB port. A little digging into the device manager on my computer finally showed that at some point since the last time I updated firmware, the USB ports were re-named. Probably a Microsoft update. The same port is now " com 5 ". If anyone is having trouble updating the firmware, it's possible this is why. Just FYI.


----------



## Sittler27

Haven't been keeping up with this thread as much as I used to a few years ago, but I now have a calibrator in for my NX9/DCR/Lumagen Radiance Pro, and he will be calibrating the projector + doing some 3DLUTs to load into the Lumagen. He will be using a very high-end Minolta something or other meter that is very accurate.

He updated my NX9 to the newest firmware (3.52 I believe?). It was on an older version before (the one that introduced the DTM initially).

He is recommending that the HDR tone mapping be calibrated using the JVC DTM vs. doing it in the Lumagen, since the newest firmware for the JVC makes it superior.
Is this the case or should I be asking him to do the HDR calibration in the Lumagen instead?

Also, we reinstalled the original INIT file for the NX9. He was adamant that this was necessary prior to calibrating the projector so that the calibration and 3DLUT creation doesn't end up with the red tint, etc. on low light areas since the Spyder5Pro I'm using wouldn't be anywhere near as accurate as the Minolta meter we will use.
Does this sound about right?


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> I see that one of the slides recommends enabling Rate Match. Does this recommendation apply to the new 5348 and use of latest JVC projectors? Or has this more to do with the sources? And which ones, specifically, have you encountered issues with?


Good question as things have changed over time due to source content providers.

When we introduced the Radiance Pro pretty much only OSD where at 60.00, since in the USA consumer content is supposed to be 59.94 (due to 70 years of TV standards history), and by extension 23.98 for movies. Because of this the Radiance Pro used to disable Rate-match when manually setting output with MENU 0873 and MENU 0874 to avoid an output restart going form the 60.00 OSD to 59.94 content.

Times have changed.

Now, Netflix, and others, are providing content at 60.00, and 24.00. I think OSDs and content should be 59.94 (or 23.98) because of the historical standard. However, as I like to say, no one asked me. So, we get 60.00 Hertz content from Netflix. Because of this we recently changed the MENU 0873 and MENU 0874 to _enable_ Rate Match.

If you notice frame drops, press OK to bring up Info Pg 1. See if the source is 60.00 (or 24.00), and if so see if the output is the same rate or not. If not, go into the Output Style0 menu under HDMI Setup and Rate Match and enable Rate Match. Make sure to Save any changes.

Note: You might see a 24.00 movie output at 59.94 or 60.00. This is a setting in the Radiance Pro and a topic for another day.


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> Haven't been keeping up with this thread as much as I used to a few years ago, but I now have a calibrator in for my NX9/DCR/Lumagen Radiance Pro, and he will be calibrating the projector + doing some 3DLUTs to load into the Lumagen. He will be using a very high-end Minolta something or other meter that is very accurate.
> 
> He updated my NX9 to the newest firmware (3.52 I believe?). It was on an older version before (the one that introduced the DTM initially).
> 
> He is recommending that the HDR tone mapping be calibrated using the JVC DTM vs. doing it in the Lumagen, since the newest firmware for the JVC makes it superior.
> Is this the case or should I be asking him to do the HDR calibration in the Lumagen instead?
> 
> Also, we reinstalled the original INIT file for the NX9. He was adamant that this was necessary prior to calibrating the projector so that the calibration and 3DLUT creation doesn't end up with the red tint, etc. on low light areas since the Spyder5Pro I'm using wouldn't be anywhere near as accurate as the Minolta meter we will use.
> Does this sound about right?


The JVC DTM is good, but no way is it better than Lumagen. If he updated to 3.52 on your projector, he also took away the auto switching ability to gamma 2.4 when it sees HDR. So hell need to use the jvc autocal to put a gamma 2.4 into a custom gamma slot too


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## Kris Deering

Sounds like your calibrator isn’t that up to date.


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## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> Sounds like your calibrator isn’t that up to date.


He phrased it as if it was I who was not up to date on the newest JVC firmware which now he stated was hard to beat in regards to HDR DTM.

I'm up in Canada so it's slim pickings on people who can actually do a cal with the Lumagen. I will be asking him to ensure the HDR DTM cal is done in the Lumagen.


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## asharma

Sittler27 said:


> He phrased it as if it was I who was not up to date on the newest JVC firmware which now he stated was hard to beat in regards to HDR DTM.
> 
> I'm up in Canada so it's slim pickings on people who can actually do a cal with the Lumagen. I will be asking him to ensure the HDR DTM cal is done in the Lumagen.


We need to bring Kris up for a NATIONAL coast to coast tour!


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## edthomp

Sittler27 said:


> He phrased it as if it was I who was not up to date on the newest JVC firmware which now he stated was hard to beat in regards to HDR DTM.
> 
> I'm up in Canada so it's slim pickings on people who can actually do a cal with the Lumagen. I will be asking him to ensure the HDR DTM cal is done in the Lumagen.


Just ship the projector and Lumagen to Kris. I shipped him my equipment and he did the calibration and shipped it back. Very easy process, and reasonably priced. After I got the equipment back and hooked it up, I was so happy with the results.


----------



## fatherom

edthomp said:


> Just ship the projector and Lumagen to Kris. I shipped him my equipment and he did the calibration and shipped it back. Very easy process, and reasonably priced. After I got the equipment back and hooked it up, I was so happy with the results.


You're making a massive assumption. Do you know what it would cost to ship a huge projector (and carefully so it doesn't get damaged) from Canada to the US and back again? We're talking probably about $2000 (that's a bit of a guess, admittedly). My parents don't even mail my daughters birthday presents anymore from the US to Canada because shipping a small item often costs around $40.


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## Sittler27

edthomp said:


> Just ship the projector and Lumagen to Kris. I shipped him my equipment and he did the calibration and shipped it back. Very easy process, and reasonably priced. After I got the equipment back and hooked it up, I was so happy with the results.


Thanks but no. I haven't lost all faith in this calibrator - I just need to mandate what I want via informed decision.

He seems capable otherwise, and has a really high-end meter.


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## Killroy

Sittler27 said:


> He seems capable otherwise, and has a really high-end meter.


I have really high end pots & pans and I still can't cook to save my life! /ducks


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## Gordon Fraser

asharma said:


> We need to bring Kris up for a NATIONAL coast to coast tour!


Maybe i should pack my calibration tools next time i come over to see my in-laws....lol.


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## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks but no. I haven't lost all faith in this calibrator - I just need to mandate what I want via informed decision.
> 
> He seems capable otherwise, and has a really high-end meter.


What Minolta does he have specifically?


----------



## bjorg

edthomp said:


> Just ship the projector and Lumagen to Kris. I shipped him my equipment and he did the calibration and shipped it back. Very easy process, and reasonably priced. After I got the equipment back and hooked it up, I was so happy with the results.


I don't think that would be viable option for me... 🤣🤣🤣


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## Karl Maga

edthomp said:


> Just ship the projector and Lumagen to Kris. I shipped him my equipment and he did the calibration and shipped it back. Very easy process, and reasonably priced. After I got the equipment back and hooked it up, I was so happy with the results.


This is exactly what I did. Fantastic results!


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## bjorg

Finally made some good progress on the Lumagen and Sony CLED integration. When the Lumagen detects HDR, the screen switches to higher light output and back again for SDR. Then, for 3D content, it switches inputs to enable 3D on the display. Finally, based on the content AR, it selects the right memory to frame the picture to my liking. All made possible by the Lumagen mode detection and some fun hacking on the Raspberry Pi! Source is freely available to other enthusiasts.

Next, I'm planning on adding integration with the Trinnov to display the current codec and upmixing mode.


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## Aaron Toulmin

I have a spare raspberry pi!

I wonder could this be used to select lamp brightness on a jvc projector based on source content being SDR or HDR?


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## blake

asharma said:


> We need to bring Kris up for a NATIONAL coast to coast tour!


Im all for that !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have a spare raspberry pi!
> 
> I wonder could this be used to select lamp brightness on a jvc projector based on source content being SDR or HDR?


I've been doing that for a couple of years now.
You detect the input format the Lumagen sees, and make the JVC projector switch between a couple of different user modes based on that.

The JVC projectors are a bit annoying as they don't respond to commands while some change at the HDMI input is happening, so in practice what you'll see is a mode change a couple of seconds after the image appears on screen. (Might be able to optimise this lower, I've not tried).

The alternative option is to use the HDR flag to signal to the projector when to change; however on many JVC projectors that limits the choice of modes you can switch to (eg no user modes) and at least on some projectors this seems to be able to lead to mechanical stress on the unit due to some buggy logic that drives the iris positioning motor (if you choose to use the iris to control brightness).

The last link in my sig includes some version of the Python code I've used in the past to do this. It uses a slightly modified version of the ARVE library to control the projector.


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## Aaron Toulmin

The HDR flag gets me the purple image bug. I’ll download your software and have a look. 😁


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## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> The HDR flag gets me the purple image bug. I’ll download your software and have a look. 😁


It's not very friendly or even good. But the core of what you need to do (parse the status message, find out if you have HDR or SDR, send message to the projector) is pretty simple. What @bjorg has done looks like much more of a proper product / project than mine, I did the bare minimum to make something work.

It might be best to work out how to add the JVC stuff to his work, than proliferate the use of my crud.


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## DaViD Boulet

Could two devices (Lumagen + projector) be designed to communicate? Meaning a serial data connection so in addition to the HDMI video signal, they could "talk"? This way the Lumagen could tell the projector when to change bulb brightness or engage a particular mode or setting per pre-programmed instructions. If Lumagen worked closely with Sony and JVC that would certainly cover a large base of home-theater-installations where these components are paired. And then over time firmware updates could enable more projector brands or models to come on line. Heck... as long as the serial-port protocol was adopted, folks could share their own custom code and add capability and share with each other. Thoughts?


----------



## fatherom

DaViD Boulet said:


> Could two devices (Lumagen + projector) be designed to communicate? Meaning a serial data connection so in addition to the HDMI video signal, they could "talk"? This way the Lumagen could tell the projector when to change bulb brightness or engage a particular mode or setting per pre-programmed instructions. If Lumagen worked closely with Sony, JVC that would certainly cover a large base of home-theater-installations where these components are paired. And then over time firmware updates could enable more projector brands or models to come on line. Heck... as long as the serial-port protocol was adopted, folks could share their own custom code and add capability and share with each other. Thoughts?


Related:









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


the Lumagen does the tone mapping for sdr2020 or sdh2020 as long as you have the JVC in the correct picture mode (not frame adapt). The only difference is sdh2020 sends the hdr flag so your JVC will switch picture modes automatically. Your JVC won’t do the tonemapping unless you have it in...




www.avsforum.com


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## SJHT

DaViD Boulet said:


> Could two devices (Lumagen + projector) be designed to communicate? Meaning a serial data connection so in addition to the HDMI video signal, they could "talk"? This way the Lumagen could tell the projector when to change bulb brightness or engage a particular mode or setting per pre-programmed instructions. If Lumagen worked closely with Sony and JVC that would certainly cover a large base of home-theater-installations where these components are paired. And then over time firmware updates could enable more projector brands or models to come on line. Heck... as long as the serial-port protocol was adopted, folks could share their own custom code and add capability and share with each other. Thoughts?


I think this is normally handled by any good control system. System knows content, AR, HDR/SDR, etc. and makes changes settings across multiple components (eg projector settings, screen masking, Audio/video….). SJ


----------



## DaViD Boulet

SJHT said:


> I think this is normally handled by any good control system. System knows content, AR, HDR/SDR, etc. and makes changes settings across multiple components (eg projector settings, screen masking, Audio/video….). SJ


True, but isn't the originator of that information (AR, HDR/SDR etc.) the Lumagen? Meaning it's looking at "black bars" and determining the resulting AR of the material. So wouldn't that be the originating point-of-control? Or (and I'm ignorant of this device... just learning now) does it already have some sort of PC/serial output to send meta-data like this out to a 3rd party control system?


----------



## thebland

DaViD Boulet said:


> True, but isn't the originator of that information (AR, HDR/SDR etc.) the Lumagen? Meaning it's looking at "black bars" and determining the resulting AR of the material. So wouldn't that be the originating point-of-control? Or (and I'm ignorant of this device... just learning now) does it already have some sort of PC/serial output to send meta-data like this out to a 3rd party control system?


Yes. And it works really well. I have Crestron control and Stewart masking. Just press play and the masking is automatic. Pretty sweet.


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## Kris Deering

The latest JVC firmware allows for discreet picture modes for SDR, HDR, 3D and HLG. That covers quite a few and Lumagen flags at least 3 of them.


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## SJHT

DaViD Boulet said:


> True, but isn't the originator of that information (AR, HDR/SDR etc.) the Lumagen? Meaning it's looking at "black bars" and determining the resulting AR of the material. So wouldn't that be the originating point-of-control? Or (and I'm ignorant of this device... just learning now) does it already have some sort of PC/serial output to send meta-data like this out to a 3rd party control system?


It can be, but since most of my movies are played from my K Strato, the system can also get that info from the Strato control system. It provides all kinds of info about the movie you have selected to play which then triggers automation… Its actually faster as there is no picture analysis needed by a Lumagen prior to doing the movie setup. SJ


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## bobof

DaViD Boulet said:


> Could two devices (Lumagen + projector) be designed to communicate? Meaning a serial data connection so in addition to the HDMI video signal, they could "talk"? This way the Lumagen could tell the projector when to change bulb brightness or engage a particular mode or setting per pre-programmed instructions. If Lumagen worked closely with Sony and JVC that would certainly cover a large base of home-theater-installations where these components are paired. And then over time firmware updates could enable more projector brands or models to come on line. Heck... as long as the serial-port protocol was adopted, folks could share their own custom code and add capability and share with each other. Thoughts?


It really is a control system job. The work is non-core to the operation of the Radiance, and once functionality like that starts to go in you commit to maintaining, supporting future devices, etc, and all the while probably not managing to do the whole job for many (eg do you then add aspect control of mask screens etc). I think Lumagen have got the balance right on this.


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## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> The latest JVC firmware allows for discreet picture modes for SDR, HDR, 3D and HLG. That covers quite a few and Lumagen flags at least 3 of them.


I tried using the HDR flag with my JVC X5900 but I get the magenta bug, everything goes purple. But I’ll have another look at it.

my goal would be two picture modes in the JVC, the only differance would be the lamp mode being in low for SDR and high for HDR.

Maybe it’s worth a conversation offline, if you’re willing to help “$”


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## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> What Minolta does he have specifically?


A CS-1000A spectroradiometer.

Is that a good meter?


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## mindedc

Craig Peer said:


> I'm one of those guys that had the random / rare but completely maddening audio dropout. I now have a Zappiti Pro too, and I'm splitting the audio and video the same way. No dropouts in a long long time, except -
> 
> If anyone enjoys watching " Knives Out " on 4K Blu-ray on your Oppo 203, but has an irritating audio dropout 2/3rd's of the way through the disc, it ain't the Lumagen. It's the Oppo for some reason. That audio dropout doesn't happen on my Panny UB820. It better not happen on the Zappiti !


I can confirm no audio drop on Kodi/Odroid N2 with that title.Good luck with the Zappiti.


----------



## DaViD Boulet

bobof said:


> It really is a control system job. The work is non-core to the operation of the Radiance, and once functionality like that starts to go in you commit to maintaining, supporting future devices, etc, and all the while probably not managing to do the whole job for many (eg do you then add aspect control of mask screens etc). I think Lumagen have got the balance right on this.


question about aspect ratio automation... as a total newbie to this space, can someone let me know how if you had a Lumagen detecting aspect ratio (and scaling appropriately), a projector with DCR lens, and motorized curtains (for continuously variable vertical masking for anything less than 2.40)... even if you left your projector/lens in a static how would the aspect-ratio trigger the curtains to open/close to the desired point? Even if you had motorized curtains with pre-programed "stops" for each common aspect ratio, how does this information in the Lumagen get communited? 12V Trigger? 

Having this sort of "start a movie and it all works" is my end-game goal so I'd like to know what I need to start to understand.

Thanks!


----------



## Craig Peer

mindedc said:


> I can confirm no audio drop on Kodi/Odroid N2 with that title.Good luck with the Zappiti.


So far zero drop outs with the Zappiti either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 187crew003

For the record on my audio drops. Before using the Panasonic 820 I would get 2-3 per movie. Now I’m using Emby on a NAS and I get one maybe every two to three movies. So big improvement. And they are maybe 1-2 seconds long. I can live with that.


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## mindedc

DaViD Boulet said:


> question about aspect ratio automation... as a total newbie to this space, can someone let me know how if you had a Lumagen detecting aspect ratio (and scaling appropriately), a projector with DCR lens, and motorized curtains (for continuously variable vertical masking for anything less than 2.40)... even if you left your projector/lens in a static how would the aspect-ratio trigger the curtains to open/close to the desired point? Even if you had motorized curtains with pre-programed "stops" for each common aspect ratio, how does this information in the Lumagen get communited? 12V Trigger?
> 
> Having this sort of "start a movie and it all works" is my end-game goal so I'd like to know what I need to start to understand.
> 
> Thanks!


You will need a control system to tie all of that together. What you're describing is achievable witha control 4 system and the appropriate drivers for the various pieces.
Specifically, the control 4 driver gets continuous updates from the Lumagen. When the aspect ratio, resolution, etc change it updates variables within C4 in real time. The C4 system would also be in control of the lens so you could do some programming like:

on adjusted_output_aspect_ratio change
if lens_position = 16:9 
then curtain > open to position user1
if lens_position = scope and adjusted_output_aspect = 178
then curtain > open to position user1
if lens_position = scope and adjusted_output_aspect = 240
then curtain > open to position user2
if lens_position = scope and adjusted_output_aspect = 240
then curtain > open to position open

You can also use the ability to set memories on the lumagen to alter is behavior depending on if the lens is in use or not. Personally I use that feature and I know that there are a decent number of users in Germany that automate their masking systems based on the Control 4 driver. There is at least one user im aware of that is using curtains in the exact way you describe, I'm guessing it's Somfy motors but I'm not sure. I could find out.
There are other automations you can do to. For example my two main media sources are a Kodi media player and an Nvidia Shield. Both devices report the status of the video output (playing vs stopped) so I dim my lights up and down with the start/stop/pause of video. I also have the lights come up and down on a scripted sequence so when you enter the theater it brings all the lights up, at the same time as the JVC logo appears the screen wash cans fade out. At this point you select a movie and the lights fade down when the video starts.

I also use some remote buttons to automate moving the anamorphic lens in and out and to enable NLS

This has been 100% reliable for 5 years in my system. I travel for work frequently and the last thing I need is something breaking while I'm out of town..wife and kids will drive me crazy.

You can probably do this with Crestron or Savant. You could also certainly write your own python scripts or something to do the same. I have a great deal of familiarity with using control 4 so I can speak authoritatively to that. PM if you want to go deeper in this discussion.


----------



## thebland

mindedc said:


> You will need a control system to tie all of that together. What you're describing is achievable witha control 4 system and the appropriate drivers for the various pieces.
> Specifically, the control 4 driver gets continuous updates from the Lumagen. When the aspect ratio, resolution, etc change it updates variables within C4 in real time. The C4 system would also be in control of the lens so you could do some programming like:
> 
> on adjusted_output_aspect_ratio change
> if lens_position = 16:9
> then curtain > open to position user1
> if lens_position = scope and adjusted_output_aspect = 178
> then curtain > open to position user1
> if lens_position = scope and adjusted_output_aspect = 240
> then curtain > open to position user2
> if lens_position = scope and adjusted_output_aspect = 240
> then curtain > open to position open
> 
> You can also use the ability to set memories on the lumagen to alter is behavior depending on if the lens is in use or not. Personally I use that feature and I know that there are a decent number of users in Germany that automate their masking systems based on the Control 4 driver. There is at least one user im aware of that is using curtains in the exact way you describe, I'm guessing it's Somfy motors but I'm not sure. I could find out.
> There are other automations you can do to. For example my two main media sources are a Kodi media player and an Nvidia Shield. Both devices report the status of the video output (playing vs stopped) so I dim my lights up and down with the start/stop/pause of video. I also have the lights come up and down on a scripted sequence so when you enter the theater it brings all the lights up, at the same time as the JVC logo appears the screen wash cans fade out. At this point you select a movie and the lights fade down when the video starts.
> 
> I also use some remote buttons to automate moving the anamorphic lens in and out and to enable NLS
> 
> This has been 100% reliable for 5 years in my system. I travel for work frequently and the last thing I need is something breaking while I'm out of town..wife and kids will drive me crazy.
> 
> You can probably do this with Crestron or Savant. You could also certainly write your own python scripts or something to do the same. I have a great deal of familiarity with using control 4 so I can speak authoritatively to that. PM if you want to go deeper in this discussion.


I have the same features with Crestron. Talks to Lumagen and any changes in the picture aspect ratio (e.g. 16:9 splash screen to scope movie, etc, the masking automatically moves). 

Very slick and great for other users of the system as they don’t have to worry about such. It’s just automatic.


----------



## bobof

DaViD Boulet said:


> question about aspect ratio automation... as a total newbie to this space, can someone let me know how if you had a Lumagen detecting aspect ratio (and scaling appropriately), a projector with DCR lens, and motorized curtains (for continuously variable vertical masking for anything less than 2.40)... even if you left your projector/lens in a static how would the aspect-ratio trigger the curtains to open/close to the desired point? Even if you had motorized curtains with pre-programed "stops" for each common aspect ratio, how does this information in the Lumagen get communited? 12V Trigger?
> 
> Having this sort of "start a movie and it all works" is my end-game goal so I'd like to know what I need to start to understand.


If you know your way around Python / raspberry Pi / etc then there is a basic script that I use in my sig, you'd have to adapt to whatever mech you have to control your curtains (my screen control is integrated via Rako RF). If this isn't the kind of thing you do for fun & relaxation, then you probably need a proper control system like something suggested previously (and a small amount of open wallet surgery...  )


----------



## docrog

Does the Radiance Pro offer a screen filling test pattern which looks like a vacant tic-tac-toe board (somewhat resembling the NX7 lens control screen) which is part of a hidden professional setup sequence? I recently had two episodes where that pattern spontaneously appeared when my RP & NX7 were first turned on and synced to 2 different video sources; the background was a uniform light green color. I turned off my system and then powered up with a different source and the graphic green was not seen. It has not occurred once the system is working correctly following those 2 unrelated events.

This isn't 1 of the 3 test patterns generated from the PJ. This occurred with 2 different sources and the NX7 menu appeared normal when overlaid (indicating that this new "glitch" wasn't likely to be originating from the PJ's panels or sources). This is an entirely new situation, as the RP and NX7 have been mated since 1/2020 without any issue. Unfortunately, I didn't think to grab a photo either time. I'm not aware of any test patterns which can be generated from my Denon AVR which acts as the video switcher in my setup (RP after AVR). Thanks for any information that can be provided.


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> Good question as things have changed over time due to source content providers.
> 
> When we introduced the Radiance Pro pretty much only OSD where at 60.00, since in the USA consumer content is supposed to be 59.94 (due to 70 years of TV standards history), and by extension 23.98 for movies. Because of this the Radiance Pro used to disable Rate-match when manually setting output with MENU 0873 and MENU 0874 to avoid an output restart going form the 60.00 OSD to 59.94 content.
> 
> Times have changed.
> 
> Now, Netflix, and others, are providing content at 60.00, and 24.00. I think OSDs and content should be 59.94 (or 23.98) because of the historical standard. However, as I like to say, no one asked me. So, we get 60.00 Hertz content from Netflix. Because of this we recently changed the MENU 0873 and MENU 0874 to _enable_ Rate Match.
> 
> If you notice frame drops, press OK to bring up Info Pg 1. See if the source is 60.00 (or 24.00), and if so see if the output is the same rate or not. If not, go into the Output Style0 menu under HDMI Setup and Rate Match and enable Rate Match. Make sure to Save any changes.
> 
> Note: You might see a 24.00 movie output at 59.94 or 60.00. This is a setting in the Radiance Pro and a topic for another day.


All my content through the ATV is 59.94 or 23.98, never rounded up… 
I have noticed that if the Lumagen converts the rate, i.e., incoming rate does not match outgoing rate, the video quality will suffer. Note I have only seen 24.98 -> 60.


----------



## Surge2018

Sittler27 said:


> He phrased it as if it was I who was not up to date on the newest JVC firmware which now he stated was hard to beat in regards to HDR DTM.
> 
> I'm up in Canada so it's slim pickings on people who can actually do a cal with the Lumagen. I will be asking him to ensure the HDR DTM cal is done in the Lumagen.


I think we are speaking about the same calibrator - he did my Sony 995. He also disabled my Lumagen’s DTM, saying he’s a “purest” and prefers to handle HDR with the Sony 995 (which does not have DTM!). He claimed he has not seen the latest Lumagen units and didn’t like Lumagen’s early DTM efforts. I actually thought I had convinced him that is not true, when I told him I enabled the Lumagen DTM. Annoying and stupid that he is still pushing clients not to use the Lumagen DTM. Bizarre!

Jim, you may want to send him a demo Lumagen. He seems to be the ONLY ISF certified calibrator in the Greater Toronto Area. Before you shrug that off as being “up in Canada”, note that Toronto has a greater population than any city in the US, except for NYC and LA!
If you PM me, I will send you the contacts and introduce you to this calibrator. He’s a nice guy and knows his stuff, except when it comes to Lumagen, that is.


----------



## Surge2018

edthomp said:


> Just ship the projector and Lumagen to Kris. I shipped him my equipment and he did the calibration and shipped it back. Very easy process, and reasonably priced. After I got the equipment back and hooked it up, I was so happy with the results.


That’s hugely expensive, especially cross-border. And more importantly, so much of the calibration depends on your screen and viewing room.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Seen a few folk are using the Lumagen to output 4096x2160 resolution rather than UHD. Wondering what the pros and cons are of doing it that way? I’ve got a Sony 760es (885 in the US). I’m using a 140” 16:9 screen, I’m at max zoom due to a 5m throw distance, using the full 4K resolution would let me zoom out a bit so I can see there might be a benefit there even if that means small black bars top and bottom.


----------



## Craig Peer

garyolearysteele said:


> *Seen a few folk are using the Lumagen to output 4096x2160 resolution rather than UHD. Wondering what the pros and cons are of doing it that way?* I’ve got a Sony 760es (885 in the US). I’m using a 140” 16:9 screen, I’m at max zoom due to a 5m throw distance, using the full 4K resolution would let me zoom out a bit so I can see there might be a benefit there even if that means small black bars top and bottom.


Those of us that use Panamorph DCR lenses need to use that resolution in order to have the correct aspect ratio. On a 16:9 screen, 3840 x 2160 is correct.


----------



## Clark Burk

Surge2018 said:


> I think we are speaking about the same calibrator - he did my Sony 995. He also disabled my Lumagen’s DTM, saying he’s a “purest” and prefers to handle HDR with the Sony 995 (which does not have DTM!). He claimed he has not seen the latest Lumagen units and didn’t like Lumagen’s early DTM efforts. I actually thought I had convinced him that is not true, when I told him I enabled the Lumagen DTM. Annoying and stupid that he is still pushing clients not to use the Lumagen DTM. Bizarre!
> 
> Jim, you may want to send him a demo Lumagen. He seems to be the ONLY ISF certified calibrator in the Greater Toronto Area. Before you shrug that off as being “up in Canada”, note that Toronto has a greater population than any city in the US, except for NYC and LA!
> If you PM me, I will send you the contacts and introduce you to this calibrator. He’s a nice guy and knows his stuff, except when it comes to Lumagen, that is.


He may be a very good calibrater but if I had various components I’d want to hire someone that was familiar with and had done many calibrations with that same gear. The Lumagen is a key piece in the chain and if not set up correctly will not provide the performance it’s capable of. Just guessing but if he’s not up to date on the latest tone mapping performance of the LRP he’s not going to be familiar with the best menu settings.
If it was me I’d want a calibrator that knew my gear inside out.


----------



## Surge2018

Clark Burk said:


> He may be a very good calibrater but if I had various components I’d want to hire someone that was familiar with and had done many calibrations with that same gear. The Lumagen is a key piece in the chain and if not set up correctly will not provide the performance it’s capable of. Just guessing but if he’s not up to date on the latest tone mapping performance of the LRP he’s not going to be familiar with the best menu settings.
> If it was me I’d want a calibrator that knew my gear inside out.


Agreed. But (astonishingly), he seems to be the only one in the 3rd largest city in the US/Canada!
IDEA:
The Lumagen should ship with a Spyder or other calibration device, for *automated calibration*. Will it equal what a pro like Kris can do? Of course not. But it will get everyone else 90% of the way there, vs 0% of the way there.
Perhaps Mad VR will do it if Lumagen does not.
You can see Apple TV is offering an auto calibration with the new ATV and an iPhone. That’s where the industry is going.
To be honest, my NX9 out of the box is really good. And I’m comparing to an ISF certified calibration of my Sony 995 (3D LUT), and I measure color differences for a living. Maybe I got lucky, but the point is the difference is not great between factory stock and calibrated.

Would I pay a few hundred dollars to have it done automatically and easily? Absolutely.


----------



## OzHDHT

Surge2018 said:


> Agreed. But (astonishingly), he seems to be the only one in the 3rd largest city in the US/Canada!
> IDEA:
> The Lumagen should ship with a Spyder or other calibration device, for *automated calibration*. Will it equal what a pro like Kris can do? Of course not. But it will get everyone else 90% of the way there, vs 0% of the way there.
> Perhaps Mad VR will do it if Lumagen does not.
> You can see Apple TV is offering an auto calibration with the new ATV and an iPhone. That’s where the industry is going.
> To be honest, my NX9 out of the box is really good. And I’m comparing to an ISF certified calibration of my Sony 995 (3D LUT), and I measure color differences for a living. Maybe I got lucky, but the point is the difference is not great between factory stock and calibrated.
> 
> Would I pay a few hundred dollars to have it done automatically and easily? Absolutely.


That's the kind of thing that's put me off worrying about the scant few calibrators we have here in Aus. The guy I lasted used back prior to even having a VW1000 left the industry, which was close to 10 years ago now. He was a great guy and I learned a heap off him. I've been pick up a bit myself and working with JVC Autocal for quite a while. Looking to probably move towards Lumagen Autocal but biding time as the software gets better with the likes of Calman, etc. Bet yeah it feels like things are heading this way. Mind you I definitely wouldn't say no to a remote calibration session by Kris D.


----------



## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> Those of us that use Panamorph DCR lenses need to use that resolution in order to have the correct aspect ratio. On a 16:9 screen, 3840 x 2160 is correct.


I wonder can the Lumagen handle a 17:9 screen with full panel and then put black bars on the side for 16:9 material and full width if it'll fit?


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I tried using the HDR flag with my JVC X5900 but I get the magenta bug, everything goes purple. But I’ll have another look at it.
> 
> my goal would be two picture modes in the JVC, the only differance would be the lamp mode being in low for SDR and high for HDR.
> 
> Maybe it’s worth a conversation offline, if you’re willing to help “$”


Happy to try and help. Shoot me a PM and we can go from there.


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> A CS-1000A spectroradiometer.
> 
> Is that a good meter?


It's definitely a long in the tooth model but it is a good spectro. I would hope he is only using that to profile a good tri-stim with it though and not using it as the primary calibration meter.


----------



## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> It's definitely a long in the tooth model but it is a good spectro. I would hope he is only using that to profile a good tri-stim with it though and not using it as the primary calibration meter.


What is a tri-stim?

Also, what other meter should he be using and for what other parts of the cal?


----------



## garyolearysteele

Sittler27 said:


> What is a tri-stim?
> 
> Also, what other meter should he be using and for what other parts of the cal?


Have a look at this which explains the process a bit


----------



## xportz

When auto-calibrating HDR with ChromaPure should DTM be turned off on the Lumagen before calibration, then turned back on after calibration?


----------



## Kris Deering

You should not auto cal hdr with chroma pure. It will only make things worse.


----------



## avsform1

Lumagen with Sony OLED displays.

With the Sony displays, calibration is performed by doing REC709 color space and the OLED display does some calculation internally which calibrates for HDR. Would the Lumagen be overkill for the Sony displays? Or would you be limited to the Lumagen to just performing performing a 1D LUT (Grayscale only) calibration? Anyone out there with a Sony OLED and Lumagen Pro have any advice?


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.
I have some questions about putting media player on top of Lumagen due to limited space.
I will make sure adequate heat ventilation for both Lumagen and media player.
Is it possible to put 22-30 lbs(weight) media player on top of the Lumagen?
My Lumagen is Radiance Pro 4444 with old model(2U chassis with no ventilation hole on top).
Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Mark Burton

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> I have some questions about putting media player on top of Lumagen due to limited space.
> I will make sure adequate heat ventilation for both Lumagen and media player.
> Is it possible to put 22-30 lbs(weight) media player on top of the Lumagen?
> My Lumagen is Radiance Pro 4444 with old model(2U chassis with no ventilation hole on top).
> Thank you for your help and support.


Can’t you put the lumagen on top of the media player which is clearly heavier? If stacking, always put the lightest unit on top.


----------



## raullopez1234

Will it be possible to add some frame interpolation algorithm in the radiance pro in a future update or does this require more horsepower than what the pro has. I have always ran my Jvc with cmd on low and can't tolerate motion without it.


----------



## raullopez1234

I'm seriously considering selling my dcr lens and buying a lumagen.


----------



## docrog

Deleted


----------



## jbrinegar

raullopez1234 said:


> I'm seriously considering selling my dcr lens and buying a lumagen.


Keep the DCR and just add the lumagen to your setup. Having the DCR + Lumagen's auto aspect control is awesome IMO


----------



## bobof

raullopez1234 said:


> Will it be possible to add some frame interpolation algorithm in the radiance pro in a future update or does this require more horsepower than what the pro has. I have always ran my Jvc with cmd on low and can't tolerate motion without it.


Frame interpolation really should reside in the display with HDMI2.0 as the display has access to refresh the panels on a faster cycle than HDMI would allow.

Why not carry on using CMD? I don't like it, but if you do...


----------



## Clark Burk

Kris Deering said:


> You should not auto cal hdr with chroma pure. It will only make things worse.


Kris will Chromapure Autocal be OK if using the LRP setup in SDR2020?


----------



## raullopez1234

bobof said:


> Frame interpolation really should reside in the display with HDMI2.0 as the display has access to refresh the panels on a faster cycle than HDMI would allow.
> 
> Why not carry on using CMD? I don't like it, but if you do...


I just thought that perhaps lumagen could do a better job than what Jvc can do. There is some artifacts with motion while cmd is engaged that I would like diminished if possible. I hope it's in a future firmware. The madvr envy extreme will have this feature but at 15k msrp I think I'll pass😂


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen

*FW 072821*
- _Posted 080421_ 
Changed Letterbox Zoom in menu to Letterbox Control (in autoaspect control and under Input: InConfigs: RES: Sizing) and added an option of 'Bottom' in addition to 'Zoom' and 'Off'. 
The 'Bottom' setting is simpler than using input vertical shift to set up for top-down masking. 
Added global setup option for letterbox control (in menu under *Global: Video: Features*) 
Added option to pass the sources content flag thru the Pro to the display (in menu under *Output: Styles: HDMI Format: ContentFlag*). 
Couple small bug fixes. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## Craig Peer

Thanks Mike!


----------



## docrog

My current TiVo mini box sends native1080i to the RP for the greatest % of my cable channels. The Mini Vox is capable of converting that content to 1080p to send to the RP (I would set 1080p as maximum resolution for that box). Given Lumagen's reportedly less than stellar de-interlacing capabilities, does anyone have any thoughts about whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to the Mini Vox for improved PQ? Thanks!


----------



## A7mad78

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> *FW 072821*
> - _Posted 080421_
> Changed Letterbox Zoom in menu to Letterbox Control (in autoaspect control and under Input: InConfigs: RES: Sizing) and added an option of 'Bottom' in addition to 'Zoom' and 'Off'.
> The 'Bottom' setting is simpler than using input vertical shift to set up for top-down masking.
> Added global setup option for letterbox control (in menu under *Global: Video: Features*)
> Added option to pass the sources content flag thru the Pro to the display (in menu under *Output: Styles: HDMI Format: ContentFlag*).
> Couple small bug fixes.
> Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected]
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


Bypass the flag source thru the pro is what i want to work with my barco /k-scape and it’s works great for my need and the barco know the right metadata 

Thx lumagen  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> Kris will Chromapure Autocal be OK if using the LRP setup in SDR2020?


I would only recommend CP auto cal for 709 SDR calibrations and only if the end user k owe what they are doing.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> My current TiVo mini box sends native1080i to the RP for the greatest % of my cable channels. The Mini Vox is capable of converting that content to 1080p to send to the RP (I would set 1080p as maximum resolution for that box). Given Lumagen's reportedly less than stellar de-interlacing capabilities, does anyone have any thoughts about whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to the Mini Vox for improved PQ? Thanks!


What’s wrong with Lumagen’s deinterlacing?


----------



## CP850-CLED

bobof said:


> Frame interpolation really should reside in the display with HDMI2.0 as the display has access to refresh the panels on a faster cycle than HDMI would allow.
> 
> Why not carry on using CMD? I don't like it, but if you do...


As more designers start using videowalls there are some truly stellar ones that are 60 and 120 but will require 3/2 pulldown for 24hz content (the Lumagen does that now), with Samsung and Sony doing frame interpolation that leaves several potential videowalls in need of such, my second favorite one is such a case; there is a definite need for a HQ frame interpolator that can do a nice job at it.


----------



## Technology3456

raullopez1234 said:


> I just thought that perhaps lumagen could do a better job than what Jvc can do. There is some artifacts with motion while cmd is engaged that I would like diminished if possible. I hope it's in a future firmware. The madvr envy extreme will have this feature but at 15k msrp I think I'll pass😂


Agreed about prices lol. Generally the problem with frame interpolation in an external processor is movies are natively 24fps (approximately), so for the interpolation to be matched cadence, it has to interpolate it either to 48fps or 72fps, and most displays don't accept+output 48fps or 72fps. They make take in a 48fps signal but output it at 50fps which wont look good, but they can't output at 48fps. However madshi posted a response with an idea how to make it work to interpolate to 60fps without unmatched cadence, but it involves 4 interpolated frames for every 1 real frame. Explanation is here: "Official madVR Envy Video Processor Owners Thread”. How well this will work, I don't know. But frame interpolation in the Lumagen without artifacts would be a welcome addition if there is a way to do it.

Another future Envy feature is digital convergence correction zonally onscreen. This sounds like it could be a much easier feature to develop, maybe one of the easiest but I wouldn't know. That would also be a welcome addition to any external processor too. At minimum, just something that will move the R, G, or B pixels over for a specified zone of the screen.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> What’s wrong with Lumagen’s deinterlacing?


Craig R., during his recent calibration, suggested that the TiVo Mini Vox offered superior de-interlacing of 1080i content in comparison with the RP. I'm attempting to determine if others agree before I make that additional investment.


----------



## Sandel

Kris Deering said:


> What’s wrong with Lumagen’s deinterlacing?


A lot, I'd say. It hasn't aged really well over the years. Still too many combing artefacts.
If I remember correctly, Jim wanted to take care of the deinterlacing capabilities any time soon.


----------



## westmd

I just found a strange phenomenon which I have not seen before. My AppleTV4k so far always transferred HDR and BT2020 to my Lumagen Pro when the source was in HDR. Strangely when I just wanted to watch Suicide Squad on HBO Max it only showed SDR709 in the Lumagen menu even though this should be in HDR. When I turned off 'Dynamic Match Range' I see HDR2020 but get 50Hz and not 24Hz. Anybody can explain to me why?


----------



## Kris Deering

Sandel said:


> A lot, I'd say. It hasn't aged really well over the years. Still too many combing artefacts.
> If I remember correctly, Jim wanted to take care of the deinterlacing capabilities any time soon.


I'd have to look but I believe they made quite a few changes to their deinterlacing just recently. I'm leaving for a trip here in a few days, but I will do some tests on this when I get back and see how it fares.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Craig R., during his recent calibration, told me that the TiVo Mini Vox offered superior upscaling of 1080i content in comparison with the RP. I'm attempting to determine if others agree before I make that additional investment.


I just talked to Craig Rounds, and he said this is not what he said. Craig said that the TiVo deinterlacing "could be better" and not that it was. His comment was also limited to deinterlacing and did not apply to scaling as implied in the post.

This was a random comment, made in private, to a customer that Craig apologized to me for since it was not based on any testing. He actually told me his comment was based on comments I made to him about the early Pro version of deinterlacing and how we wanted to improve it. My comments were made many revisions ago. Radiance Pro deinterlacing has come a long way since then.

Craig was not even aware of our recent deinterlacing improvements which one Radiance Pro owner liked so much he said that the deinterlacing improvements are the most important improvements of any recent release, and that he was now very happy with the Radiance Pro deinterlacing.

Maybe I should have made a bigger deal about the deinterlacing improvements.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I just talked to Craig Rounds, and he said this is not what he said. Craig said that the TiVo deinterlacing "could be better" and not that it was. His comment was also limited to deinterlacing and did not apply to scaling as implied in the post.
> 
> This was a random comment, made in private, to a customer that Craig apologized to me for since it was not based on any testing. He actually told me his comment was based on comments I made to him about the early Pro version of deinterlacing and how we wanted to improve it. My comments were made many revisions ago. Radiance Pro deinterlacing has come a long way since then.
> 
> Craig was not even aware of our recent deinterlacing improvements which one Radiance Pro owner liked so much he said that the deinterlacing improvements are the most important improvements of any recent release, and that he was now very happy with the Radiance Pro deinterlacing.
> 
> Maybe I should have made a bigger deal about the deinterlacing improvements.


@jrp, there's never been any question in my mind about the superior upscaling of the RP, as that was an attribute that factored into my initial decision to purchase my RP. Indeed, Craig was referring to de-interlacing and my original post (which I just re-read) did not in any way refer to upscaling, only de-interlacing1080i -> 1080p. You are correct, that, in my 2nd post, I inadvertently typed "upscaling" when I had intended "de-interlacing" (as consistent with the initial post). That error has been subsequently corrected.

I'm thrilled to read that, in your opinion, Lumagen's current de-interlacing has been improved to such an extent. Thank you for setting the record straight, as I hadn't perceived any obvious problems using my current TiVo Mini (1080i) with the RP and had no interest in upgrading to the 1080p/4K Mini if there wouldn't be observable improvement. Lastly, could you please indicate which firmware version has the latest de-interlacing improvement? Thanks, as always.


----------



## jrp

Sandel said:


> A lot, I'd say. It hasn't aged really well over the years. Still too many combing artefacts.
> If I remember correctly, Jim wanted to take care of the deinterlacing capabilities any time soon.


The only time people have called me about "combing" for the Pro deinterlacer was when they had a source (like the Strato, among others) that was outputting the interlaced signal with the wrong field order. This was not a deinterlacing issue but a source error that the customer did not know they could work-around by selecting the "Flip Field" feature in the Pro. For those who called, once I had them engage the Flip Field feature their "combing" went away.

I did post about this a few times but it is not easy for everyone to read every post to find this info. The most excellent news is that recent releases (062721 and later) have hardware to detect this incorrect field order and automatically correct for it. This is just one of the recent deinterlacing improvements.

Note: The "auto" detect for field order is now the default for new units, but it is only changed by a Factory Reset. You can change this in the Input: In Configs: RES: Control: Deinterlace: Field submenu. Select Auto, press OK, and then do a Save. This is a per input selection.

The poster is accurate that for some time I have said we might not get to the deinterlacing enhancements any time soon, but the time came and we did. We may swing around at a later date and again look at deinterlacing, but the comments I am getting on the recent improvements have been very positive.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> ... could you please indicate which firmware version has the latest de-interlacing improvement? Thanks, as always.


The deinterlacing improvements are in 062721, and later, releases.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> The deinterlacing improvements are in 062721, and later, releases.


Thanks, Jim. I'm currently on v.070921, so I should be good to go.


----------



## DVD MAN

Hi Folks,
I need a little help on settings up a Lumagen to
My JVC NX9. I am trying to set up to evaluate its HDR tone mapping. Any help would be appreciated


----------



## asharma

DVD MAN said:


> Hi Folks,
> I need a little help on settings up a Lumagen to
> My JVC NX9. I am trying to set up to evaluate its HDR tone mapping. Any help would be appreciated


I went thru the same pain…Even when the settings you chose happen to be correct, you really still won’t know if they are correct or not as there seems to be a few different ways to set things up but deliver the same end results that work…In the end I paid Kris Deering to create my config file…I knew it was done right and have not looked back…


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Hi Folks,
> I need a little help on settings up a Lumagen to
> My JVC NX9. I am trying to set up to evaluate its HDR tone mapping. Any help would be appreciated


pM me or email me and I can let you know some options.


----------



## gdfein

Looking for a RS232 cable to 3.5mm for connecting my 5348 to my C4. This one on AMZ seems close but the 3.5 end appears stereo and not mono where as my C4 IR emitters are all mono. Anyone know if this will work or is there a better option?









Amazon.com: Qaoquda DB9 9 Pin Female to 3.5mm Male Plug Serial Cable RS232 to 1/8 inch Conversion Cable Cord- 6FT/1.8M : Electronics


Buy Qaoquda DB9 9 Pin Female to 3.5mm Male Plug Serial Cable RS232 to 1/8 inch Conversion Cable Cord- 6FT/1.8M: Serial Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mindedc

gdfein said:


> Looking for a RS232 cable to 3.5mm for connecting my 5348 to my C4. This one on AMZ seems close but the 3.5 end appears stereo and not mono where as my C4 IR emitters are all mono. Anyone know if this will work or is there a better option?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Qaoquda DB9 9 Pin Female to 3.5mm Male Plug Serial Cable RS232 to 1/8 inch Conversion Cable Cord- 6FT/1.8M : Electronics
> 
> 
> Buy Qaoquda DB9 9 Pin Female to 3.5mm Male Plug Serial Cable RS232 to 1/8 inch Conversion Cable Cord- 6FT/1.8M: Serial Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





gdfein said:


> Looking for a RS232 cable to 3.5mm for connecting my 5348 to my C4. This one on AMZ seems close but the 3.5 end appears stereo and not mono where as my C4 IR emitters are all mono. Anyone know if this will work or is there a better option?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Qaoquda DB9 9 Pin Female to 3.5mm Male Plug Serial Cable RS232 to 1/8 inch Conversion Cable Cord- 6FT/1.8M : Electronics
> 
> 
> Buy Qaoquda DB9 9 Pin Female to 3.5mm Male Plug Serial Cable RS232 to 1/8 inch Conversion Cable Cord- 6FT/1.8M: Serial Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unfortunately they don't share any pin out information on the adapter that I could find. As long as sleve is ground and they have tip/run to tx/rx it will work. If the polarity is wrong you can toggle null modem on the 3.5mm serial ports on your EA controller via setting on the controller object itself. That takes place of using a null modem adapter.

You can also order the real deal from your dealer for probably $10.


----------



## DVD MAN

Hello Folks,

So I completed set up of my Lumagen and my JVC NX9 combo. Do these settings look correct?

Here are my settings:
I set the CMS0 to 709 with a 2.4 gamma and the CMS1 to BT.2020 with a 2.4 gamma. I also did a 2.4 gamma auto calibration with Calman.
I did not do color calibration as it was not needed. When I checked color checker with Calman it had an average of 1.5de. I also checked the output of the JVC using a Stewart
100" 1.3 gain screen.

SDR 709 at -12 iris low lamp it averaged 16FL
HDR BT.2020 -4 iris with low lamp it averaged 105 Nits.

Lumagen
HDR ton mapping settings:
Low Ratio-31
Dynpad-4
DeSat-Auto
MaxLight-500

Question
My JVC now has two user modes a 2.4 gamma setting for SDR and one for HDR is there anyway to set the projectors Auto Pic Mode for these two modes? Or will I have to select them manually?


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## 5mark

Are there a lot of Lumagen owners using a Nvidia Shield with no issues? I think I may have a defective Shield (non Pro) but was trying to rule out compatibility issues with the Lumagen. Thanks for your feedback in advance.


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## asharma

5mark said:


> Are there a lot of Lumagen owners using a Nvidia Shield with no issues? I think I may have a defective Shield (non Pro) but was trying to rule out compatibility issues with the Lumagen. Thanks for your feedback in advance.


I run the Sheild TV Pro, attached to my NAS, no issues.

edit: I use my AVR to switch with the Sheild Pro into the AVR and single AVR monitor output to the Lumagen input…


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## sjschaff

I gave up on the Shield earlier this year as I was getting a significant number of audio dropouts with files of all types. However, I never attempted to use my A/V unit as the switch and had kept that for the Lumagen. Given the many noted problems others have encountered, maybe that was the real source of my dropouts. I've since moved on to a variety of new hardware and put my new A/V unit into switching service instead.


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## asharma

sjschaff said:


> I gave up on the Shield earlier this year as I was getting a significant number of audio dropouts with files of all types. However, I never attempted to use my A/V unit as the switch and had kept that for the Lumagen. Given the many noted problems others have encountered, maybe that was the real source of my dropouts. I've since moved on to a variety of new hardware and put my new A/V unit into switching service instead.


I edited my feedback above to note the fact I use the AVR as the switch with zero issues…


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## sjschaff

Same here with my Trinnov acting as switch. Side benefit is that I get less delay in audio/video starting together...though there still is some.


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## sunnya23

5mark said:


> Are there a lot of Lumagen owners using a Nvidia Shield with no issues? I think I may have a defective Shield (non Pro) but was trying to rule out compatibility issues with the Lumagen. Thanks for your feedback in advance.


I use the shield pro for pretty much all my streaming and also Plex for my movie collection. Haven't had any real issues with it at all. It's super fast and responsive. All my sources are running through the Lumagen and then one out to the projector and audio out to trinnov.


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## sjschaff

Didn't have any dropout problems with Plex, but since I've so many files that are iso and BDMV, I had to move on, so now using a Zappiti Pro ACE. And I should have said the app that caused heartburn was Kodi.


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## audioguy

sunnya23 said:


> I use the shield pro for pretty much all my streaming and also Plex for my movie collection. Haven't had any real issues with it at all. It's super fast and responsive. All my sources are running through the Lumagen and then one out to the projector and audio out to trinnov.


Same here - all sources running through the Lumagen.


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## dgkula

5mark said:


> Are there a lot of Lumagen owners using a Nvidia Shield with no issues? I think I may have a defective Shield (non Pro) but was trying to rule out compatibility issues with the Lumagen. Thanks for your feedback in advance.


I have a shield, no issues
All sources into lumagen, out to projector and audio out to AVR


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## Surge2018

@DVD MAN:
Your HDR tone mapping settings seem to be leaving some “light on the table”. My MaxLight is 950 and I have a 0.9 gain screen, but it’s only 100” diag and throw distance is ~10ft. I haven’t measured light output. You can always lower max light for settings that you know will work, but that means you’re reducing the dynamic range of light output.
Set MaxLight using the overturned boat scene in The Meg. This has been discussed in the Lumagen forum.


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## DVD MAN

Surge2018 said:


> @DVD MAN:
> Your HDR tone mapping settings seem to be leaving some “light on the table”. My MaxLight is 950 and I have a 0.9 gain screen, but it’s only 100” diag and throw distance is ~10ft. I haven’t measured light output. You can always lower max light for settings that you know will work, but that means you’re reducing the dynamic range of light output.
> Set MaxLight using the overturned boat scene in The Meg. This has been discussed in the Lumagen forum.


Thank you for that tip. I am now around 750 on the MaxLight it’s looking great. It’s definitely a learning curve.


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## Killroy

5mark said:


> Are there a lot of Lumagen owners using a Nvidia Shield with no issues? I think I may have a defective Shield (non Pro) but was trying to rule out compatibility issues with the Lumagen. Thanks for your feedback in advance.


If you have the 2019 Tube Shield you will have serious issues with it since it is a 32-bit only device. I stopped counting the number of people that have issues with it and when they switched to the non-tube version (Pro) the problems went away.

I have numerous 2017 Pros and a 2019 Pro with no issues with the Lumagen. The 2017s are more fickle with networking issues but the 2019 has been solid...except for updates that could be fixed with system resets (long story).


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## Sandel

jrp said:


> The only time people have called me about "combing" for the Pro deinterlacer was when they had a source (like the Strato, among others) that was outputting the interlaced signal with the wrong field order. This was not a deinterlacing issue but a source error that the customer did not know they could work-around by selecting the "Flip Field" feature in the Pro. For those who called, once I had them engage the Flip Field feature their "combing" went away.
> 
> I did post about this a few times but it is not easy for everyone to read every post to find this info. The most excellent news is that recent releases (062721 and later) have hardware to detect this incorrect field order and automatically correct for it. This is just one of the recent deinterlacing improvements.
> 
> Note: The "auto" detect for field order is now the default for new units, but it is only changed by a Factory Reset. You can change this in the Input: In Configs: RES: Control: Deinterlace: Field submenu. Select Auto, press OK, and then do a Save. This is a per input selection.
> 
> The poster is accurate that for some time I have said we might not get to the deinterlacing enhancements any time soon, but the time came and we did. We may swing around at a later date and again look at deinterlacing, but the comments I am getting on the recent improvements have been very positive.


Jim,
it's true, I've never called you about this, but the interlacing is still not the best on the market. And it's not related to flipped field order or anything, it's the comb detection that I'm referring to.
Please have a look at this example from an NTSC DVD (480i). When I let the Oppo do the upconversion, these artefacts are gone. But I'd rather have the Radiance Pro do the job...


----------



## sjschaff

Killroy said:


> If you have the 2019 Tube Shield you will have serious issues with it since it is a 32-bit only device. I stopped counting the number of people that have issues with it and when they switched to the non-tube version (Pro) the problems went away.
> 
> I have numerous 2017 Pros and a 2019 Pro with no issues with the Lumagen. The 2017s are more fickle with networking issues but the 2019 has been solid...except for updates that could be fixed with system resets (long story).


The hardware is solid, though a bit tricky to understand the ideal means for configuration, based on associated hardware. The biggest issue is software apps. Once committed to the latest Kodi you cannot revert and that was my mistake. Kodi 19 was the trigger for audio dropouts for me.


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## jrp

Sandel said:


> Jim,
> it's true, I've never called you about this, but the interlacing is still not the best on the market. And it's not related to flipped field order or anything, it's the comb detection that I'm referring to.
> Please have a look at this example from an NTSC DVD (480i). When I let the Oppo do the up-conversion, these artefacts are gone. But I'd rather have the Radiance Pro do the job...


I was able to reproduce the interlaced image artifact using a 1080i Diana Krall video (very similar "face by microphone" scene). I was able to see what you have in the picture. I turned color off to make sure it was not a CUE issue, and it remained in black and white. The issue may be a combing artifact, but need more testing to figure out the cause.

The combing in the Radiance Pro deinterlacer is much less than from the "Gennum" chip used in the earlier Radiance Pro models based on our testing. Completely eliminating combing is very difficult. Since deinterlacing has not been a top priority, as I alluded to in my recent posts, there is still some room for improvement even with the recent enhancements.

The reported issue is not easily seen at viewing distance (at least with the 1080i Diana Krall source), but it does look like an area we can improve for deinterlacing. Patrick is leaving on vacation for 10 days or so. Once Patrick is back he can take a look if there is a Verilog/synthesis issue, or something else, we can address. I will say we are in the midst of the pipeline enhancements. So, if it is a time-sink this might not get looked at for a while.

Thanks for the report.

====

One final comment on 480 SD content: If the underlying source is 480 at 24 Hertz progressive encoded at 480i, there is a "frame flag" which allows the player to perfectly reproduce the frames from the interlaced encoding. The Pro must do field image analysis not knowing if the underlying source is progressive or not. If the underlying content is encoded as 480p24 then no deinterlacing needed if the player outputs progressive. So, when the player outputs a progressive signal, if the underlying content is progressive, it can look better than any independent deinterlacer can do starting with interlaced. Note: Many 480i music videos are actually 480i60, or 480i50, video content and so this would not apply to them.


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## Clark Burk

^^^ What fantastic customer service. Lumagen is in a class by itself. I’m mentioning this as I just gave up trying to get hold of NETGEAR tech support. To think they try and get owners to pay for support to get abused like that.
Thanks Jim for showing us that some companies still care about customer service.


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## A7mad78

Clark Burk said:


> ^^^ What fantastic customer service. Lumagen is in a class by itself. I’m mentioning this as I just gave up trying to get hold of NETGEAR tech support. To think they try and get owners to pay for support to get abused like that.
> Thanks Jim for showing us that some companies still care about customer service.


Can’t agree more world class support I ask my projector company about missing thing and they keep in touch with lumagen within week they found the right solution and Boom provide an update which will serve all the people who have same setup as I do can’t find this in every where few company I can name lumagen one of them that have after sell support unbelievable 

THANK YOU 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

Really cool Jim has taken the time to do that, especially as he points out for something there's probably not much demand for. I can't seriously imagine wanting to look at any 480i content these days on my RS4500. Last time I pulled out an old concert video DVD was when I had my VW1000 like 9 years ago, it was U2 and it looked ghastly.


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## bjorg

OzHDHT said:


> Really cool Jim has taken the time to do that, especially as he points out for something there's probably not much demand for. I can't seriously imagine wanting to look at any 480i content these days on my RS4500. Last time I pulled out an old concert video DVD was when I had my VW1000 like 9 years ago, it was U2 and it looked ghastly.


Plex on AppleTV does a better job than Oppo to Lumagen for 480i content. Since it’s a rare fare, I’ve made my peace with it. However, there is a lot of 480i content that will never see a resolution upgrade. So having a good upscaling solution is our best hope to enjoying them.


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## Mark_H

5mark said:


> Are there a lot of Lumagen owners using a Nvidia Shield with no issues? I think I may have a defective Shield (non Pro) but was trying to rule out compatibility issues with the Lumagen. Thanks for your feedback in advance.


I get audio dropouts, but I get them on my TV Shield also, which no longer has a Lumagen in the loop, so I'm pointing my finger at the Shield as the culprit.


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## humbug2

Just another 4242 owner who has a LOT of DVDs that probably will never be on modern media. The quality of their reproduction is very important to me.


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## Sandel

jrp said:


> I was able to reproduce the interlaced image artifact using a 1080i Diana Krall video (very similar "face by microphone" scene). I was able to see what you have in the picture. I turned color off to make sure it was not a CUE issue, and it remained in black and white. The issue may be a combing artifact, but need more testing to figure out the cause.
> 
> The combing in the Radiance Pro deinterlacer is much less than from the "Gennum" chip used in the earlier Radiance Pro models based on our testing. Completely eliminating combing is very difficult. Since deinterlacing has not been a top priority, as I alluded to in my recent posts, there is still some room for improvement even with the recent enhancements.
> 
> The reported issue is not easily seen at viewing distance (at least with the 1080i Diana Krall source), but it does look like an area we can improve for deinterlacing. Patrick is leaving on vacation for 10 days or so. Once Patrick is back he can take a look if there is a Verilog/synthesis issue, or something else, we can address. I will say we are in the midst of the pipeline enhancements. So, if it is a time-sink this might not get looked at for a while.
> 
> Thanks for the report.
> 
> ====
> 
> One final comment on 480 SD content: If the underlying source is 480 at 24 Hertz progressive encoded at 480i, there is a "frame flag" which allows the player to perfectly reproduce the frames from the interlaced encoding. The Pro must do field image analysis not knowing if the underlying source is progressive or not. If the underlying content is encoded as 480p24 then no deinterlacing needed if the player outputs progressive. So, when the player outputs a progressive signal, if the underlying content is progressive, it can look better than any independent deinterlacer can do starting with interlaced. Note: Many 480i music videos are actually 480i60, or 480i50, video content and so this would not apply to them.


Jim,
you're the man! Thanks for this outstanding support! I highly appreciate your dedication!


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## sjschaff

Mark_H said:


> I get audio dropouts, but I get them on my TV Shield also, which no longer has a Lumagen in the loop, so I'm pointing my finger at the Shield as the culprit.


What software player are you using? I had the problems when Kodi was updated to version 19 in February.


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## Geof

humbug2 said:


> Just another 4242 owner who has a LOT of DVDs that probably will never be on modern media. The quality of their reproduction is very important to me.


I agree, I also have a 4242+ and good de-interlacing is important required in a VP!!


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## Chris5

We also play a lot of 576i dvds of tv shows that will never be released in higher resolution. Deinterlacing & scaling is very important to us too.


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## audioguy

humbug2 said:


> Just another 4242 owner who has a LOT of DVDs that probably will never be on modern media. The quality of their reproduction is very important to me.


And sometimes, the (DVD) images produced simply amaze me at how good they are (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph).


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## OzHDHT

I'm fine with basically having no DVDs any more from formerly having a significant library of them (laserdiscs prior), Not even sure what remains amongst any left stored somewhere mixed with a few blu rays that aren' t in kept in my HT. If I've got the burning desire to fine something, I can usually find it somewhere on the internet and d/l or stream. I have some family who are involved in producing new DVDs of old shows instead of just putting them onto a mainstream streaming service for easy access. I roll my eyes every time I see them promoted anywhere.


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## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> I'm fine with basically having no DVDs any more from formerly having a significant library of them (laserdiscs prior), Not even sure what remains amongst any left stored somewhere mixed with a few blu rays that aren' t in kept in my HT. If I've got the burning desire to fine something, I can usually find it somewhere on the internet and d/l or stream. I have some family who are involved in producing new DVDs of old shows instead of just putting them onto a mainstream streaming service for easy access. I roll my eyes every time I see them promoted anywhere.


I personally can't watch anything that is *not* Blu-ray or better these days.


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## Mark_H

sjschaff said:


> What software player are you using? I had the problems when Kodi was updated to version 19 in February.


Frequent dropouts with Plex and Netflix - also use Amazon Prime but cannot recall hearing dropouts there. No dropouts with other sources, eg Oppo, WiiU etc.


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## woofer

Craig Peer said:


> I personally can't watch anything that is Blu-ray or better these days.


I presume there is a.... *"Not"....* missing from the above phrase ? 😊 eg....... * I personally can't watch anything that is "NOT" Blu-ray or better these days.*


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## Craig Peer

woofer said:


> I presume there is a.... *"Not"....* missing from the above phrase ? 😊 eg....... * I personally can't watch anything that is "NOT" Blu-ray or better these days.*


Yes - corrected now ( thanks ) - that's what happens when you post late at night after your nerves are all jangled from watching " Wrath Of Man " ( great revenge movie ) ! Doh!


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## Ian_Currie

Craig Peer said:


> Yes - corrected now ( thanks ) - that's what happens when you post late at night after your nerves are all jangled from watching " Wrath Of Man " ( great revenge movie ) ! Doh!


Haven't seen that movie yet, thanks for the recommend.


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## Kris Deering

Craig Peer said:


> Yes - corrected now ( thanks ) - that's what happens when you post late at night after your nerves are all jangled from watching " Wrath Of Man " ( great revenge movie ) ! Doh!


Have the 4K HDR version in my watch list on the Kaleidescape. Surprised no 4K disc release on that one.


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## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> Have the 4K HDR version in my watch list on the Kaleidescape. Surprised no 4K disc release on that one.


Same here.


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## Clark Burk

Yes, it’s a bit worrisome how many new titles are coming out in 4K streaming and Blu-ray but omitting the 4K disc version. Kaleidescape is just a bit out of my reach.


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## Craig Peer

Clark Burk said:


> Yes, it’s a bit worrisome how many new titles are coming out in 4K streaming and Blu-ray but omitting the 4K disc version. Kaleidescape is just a bit out of my reach.


That said, the Blu-ray looked really good.


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## SJHT

Clark Burk said:


> Yes, it’s a bit worrisome how many new titles are coming out in 4K streaming and Blu-ray but omitting the 4K disc version. Kaleidescape is just a bit out of my reach.


It’s likely to get even worse. There are currently 501 4K titles on the K store that don’t have 4K Discs….


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## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> Yes, it’s a bit worrisome how many new titles are coming out in 4K streaming and Blu-ray but omitting the 4K disc version. Kaleidescape is just a bit out of my reach.


It's the way of the world. 4K UHD disc is a "dead man walking" format these days. Sure, some titles make it, but the bulk of 4k content doesn't.


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## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> It's the way of the world. 4K UHD disc is a "dead man walking" format these days. Sure, some titles make it, but the bulk of 4k content doesn't.


Oh ya? Citizen Kane to Lead Criterion’s First 4K Slate | The Current | The Criterion Collection


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## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> It’s likely to get even worse. There are currently 501 4K titles on the K store that don’t have 4K Discs….


How many of those do I actually want to watch to begin with? I'd like to see a list.


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## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> How many of those do I actually want to watch to begin with? I'd like to see a list.


I've seen the list as of about 6 months or a year ago, and I wouldn't be interested in many, if any. But that may change over time. We shall see.


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## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> I've seen the list as of about 6 months or a year ago, and I wouldn't be interested in many, if any. But that may change over time. We shall see.


I pulled up the list and sure, there are a few I wouldn't mind in 4K. Have you seen " Train To Busan " on Blu-ray? There are a lot of Blu-rays that look so good, I don't really care if they are on 4K.


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## Technology3456

Craig Peer said:


> How many of those do I actually want to watch to begin with? I'd like to see a list.


edited. My comment ended up being more about the state of Hollywood movies these days than it was about Lumagen, so I deleted it here but saved it so I can post it in a discussion about that in the future if there ends up being one. But the bottom line of it was not only is 4K physical media important for quality, but even more important is that there are good movies released that are worth watching in _any _format. The more effort I put into my HT, the more I can't help but think about, "what exactly am I going to watch on this thing?" The state of Hollywood right now is not very conducive to this hobby, unfortunately. But I'm still excited.


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## Craig Peer

Technology3456 said:


> How many of the movies do you actually want to watch coming out on any format these days? Lol.


Not that many. I cherry pick the few I'm interested in long after they are in the theater or out on disc with 100 reviews. While I see a few movies I like in 4K at K Scape, I certainly don't want to spend $35.00 for Tropic Thunder or Shooter. I rarely pay anywhere close to that for an actual 4K disc except special limited editions ( Donnie Darko for instance ). 

Same with wine. No swill please.


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## Killroy

Craig Peer said:


> Same with wine. No swill please.


Same with bourbon... higher than 90-proof or nothing.


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## Technology3456

Craig Peer said:


> Not that many. I cherry pick the few I'm interested in long after they are in the theater or out on disc with 100 reviews.
> 
> Same with wine. No swill please.


Well, finding good wine is not a problem, many places in the world. Finding good movies these days, at least for me, has been a challenge... we need more great scenes like this! (to tie it into the alcohol discussion, lol): 




And I'm not saying GOT S8 isn't a mess, but that was a great episode. It's funny, you've got me thinking now about associations between alcohol, and movies. Supposedly in 2001 A Space Odyssey, the monolith that gives knowledge to the apes is akin to a movie screen. And I heard a similar idea once about alcohol. These kind of correspondences are interesting for me to think about, but it would be nice if that led to some sort of profound realization. I confess I still don't get it. But at least films like 2001 give you things to think about. I'm not saying all movies should abandon plot and structure and be open-ended either, just that filmmaking is such a powerful invention and art form that it feels like a lot more could be done with it than ends up happening with 99% of movie releases. But even the lower standard of just being entertaining is not being met by most of them.

Maybe a great HT will change that, maybe it won't, but as a movie buff I am hoping for better movies first and foremost. And the clip I posted notwithstanding, I used to advocate longform storytelling in stories, but I now believe I was completely wrong about that. I'd hoped for a scenario where the length of the story could increase to a full series length without sacrificing quality, but in 99% of cases, it's just not realistic. Not to mention, the time commitment to watch them. Amazon has a $450 million budget for season 1 of their LOTR series. Fellowship, The Two Towers, and Return of the King each cost around 95 million. I'd much rather Amazon spent that $450 on three, 3-to-4-hour-long LOTR movies following the same stories, 9 to 12 hours total (like one season of television), than spend it on a series. The quality almost always seems to suffer when it's a series.


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## Craig Peer

Killroy said:


> Same with bourbon... higher than 90-proof or nothing.


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## Craig Peer




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## OzHDHT

Craig Peer said:


> Not that many. I cherry pick the few I'm interested in long after they are in the theater or out on disc with 100 reviews. While I see a few movies I like in 4K at K Scape, I certainly don't want to spend $35.00 for Tropic Thunder or Shooter. I rarely pay anywhere close to that for an actual 4K disc except special limited editions ( Donnie Darko for instance ).
> 
> Same with wine. No swill please.


You can find 4K versions around too for movies not on disc. I've had Kscope size versions of a few titles like Indiana Jones quite a long time prior to disc version release. I'll even put up with H265 versions of some non-disc titles too if really that keen to watch. Otherwise, as you say Craig, there's not much in that K-scope list that's worth worrying about not on disc.


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## SJHT

Out of 501 movies? Really. Back on topic….


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## Sittler27

Where would one best go if he wanted to use an EODIS3 meter and Colourspace software to create and load a 3DLUT into the Lumagen RP?

I have an NX9/DCR.

I'm willing to put in the time to learn and do it myself, but I have no idea where to start.

Otherwise, if it's impossible to do or the guides/info is scrambled than I'll just stick with an JVC Autocal (SpyderX) and then any touch-ups with Colourspace + my EODIS3, but the 3DLUT would be great...


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## OzHDHT

SJHT said:


> Out of 501 movies? Really. Back on topic….


Definitely not going to spend $6K to get those titles in my case. As said I'll view lesser 4K versions if any of them motivates me enough, but I haven't seen any there that have..

And yeah back on topic...


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## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> Out of 501 movies? Really. Back on topic….


I can only watch so many movies. I have the same problem right now with 680 bottles of wine ( down from 1200 at one point ). I own over 750 movies and there are quite a few I still have never had a chance to watch.


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## SJHT

Craig Peer said:


> I can only watch so many movies. I have the same problem right now with 680 bottles of wine ( down from 1200 at one point ). I own over 750 movies and there are quite a few I still have never had a chance to watch.


I have a friend who was one of the Duckhorn original investors and had shares to the company (sold several times at this point). He has so many mags from those early years its difficult to drink them. I’m helping as much as possible.😁


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## audioguy

Technology3456 said:


> The more effort I put into my HT, the more I can't help but think about, "what exactly am I going to watch on this thing?" The state of Hollywood right now is not very conducive to this hobby, unfortunately. But I'm still excited.


"Hollywood" is now only *A* source (vs *THE* source) for new movies. Apple, Hulu, Amazon, and Netflix all now produce content. Not to suggest that what they produce is any better than what Hollywood does.

Like so much of the rest of our culture, we really seem to be moving toward the LOWEST common denominator. (the first thought that came to my head when I wrote that sentence was "*Participation* Awards").

The Studios see a movie of some genre have success and then everyone jumps on board.

But back on topic. I have mostly stopped buying HDR re-do's of old movies if the soundtrack isn't seriously upgraded as well, - AND that new soundtrack is reviewed to be a real improvement. I have watched a number of BR's recently that up-converted to 4K via the Lumagen look stunning. And the soundtrack, even if not in 3D audio, but up-converted using one of the CODECS, still makes the experience worth what I have invested in our theater. Once the movie starts, I don't ever think about HDR vs no HDR or Atmos vs 5.1.


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## jqmn

Sittler27 said:


> Where would one best go if he wanted to use an EODIS3 meter and Colourspace software to create and load a 3DLUT into the Lumagen RP?


Check out the Light Illusion website. Its CS guides for calibration all the way to LUTs are terrific and step-by-step. There is a also a short guide on uploading to the RP. Also check out the CS thread over in the calibration forum. At present is is very focused on OLED but it does cover a vast amount else-wise.


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## MOberhardt

Craig Peer said:


> How many of those do I actually want to watch to begin with? I'd like to see a list.


I'd be interested if it was any use. Kaleidescope I like the idea on concept, and money wise I'm ok with it. But the issue is I'm Australian. Kaleidescope isn't available to the majority of the planet.


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## Sittler27

jqmn said:


> Check out the Light Illusion website. Its CS guides for calibration all the way to LUTs are terrific and step-by-step. There is a also a short guide on uploading to the RP. Also check out the CS thread over in the calibration forum. At present is is very focused on OLED but it does cover a vast amount else-wise.


Thanks for that. When I started to try this last time, I now remember I had hit a snag: I could never seem to get my Windows laptop where my Colourspace installation is to connect with my Lumagen over USB in order to auto-use it's internal patterns for the LUT.

No matter what I did, I'd always get some error popup (was trying to first connect to get a software update on the Lumagen with the laptop). This includes doing all the suggested troubleshooting of rebooting the Lumagen as the error details recommended.

Basically the Device Manager entry shows "USB-UART" device when I connect to the Lumagen's USB to the Lumagen, and even shows it on COM3, but when I load up the software update and select COM3 in the menu and hit Start it always pops up with that error.

So without being able to connect to the Lumagen, I had previously abandoned this whole effort but now want to do it again. 

Any additional troubleshooting steps I should be taking?


----------



## Craig Peer

SJHT said:


> I have a friend who was one of the Duckhorn original investors and had shares to the company (sold several times at this point). He has so many mags from those early years its difficult to drink them. I’m helping as much as possible.😁


I started selling wine via auction at K & L Wine and taking the proceeds as a credit for future purchases. It's almost as bad with movies on disc in my library. The pool is distracting from movies right now!


----------



## thebland

Craig Peer said:


> I started selling wine via auction at K & L Wine and taking the proceeds as a credit for future purchases. It's almost as bad with movies on disc in my library. The pool is distracting from movies right now!


Send me a list!! Love those mags!!


----------



## thebland

SJHT said:


> I have a friend who was one of the Duckhorn original investors and had shares to the company (sold several times at this point). He has so many mags from those early years its difficult to drink them. I’m helping as much as possible.😁





Craig Peer said:


> I started selling wine via auction at K & L Wine and taking the proceeds as a credit for future purchases. It's almost as bad with movies on disc in my library. The pool is distracting from movies right now!


Send me a list!! Love those mags!!


----------



## dlinsley

Sittler27 said:


> Basically the Device Manager entry shows "USB-UART" device when I connect to the Lumagen's USB to the Lumagen, and even shows it on COM3, but when I load up the software update and select COM3 in the menu and hit Start it always pops up with that error.
> 
> So without being able to connect to the Lumagen, I had previously abandoned this whole effort but now want to do it again.
> 
> Any additional troubleshooting steps I should be taking?


I can't remember which value is needed, but ensure the Delimiters option is set correctly in the Lumagen. I used to have to switch that for Calman/Lightspace when I also used an RS232 control system with my Lumagen. I think this is why Light Illusion recommend factory reset (not really needed) in their Lumagen guide. It's coming up on two years since I last did my own calibration though, so maybe this is now auto-detected in Colorspace. I'm not sure it auto-detects/sets baudrate either and so you need it to match what the RS232 menu in the Lumagen is set to (unlike the Lumagen firmware updater tool).

Manni's JVC Autocal thread in the other forum also has good generic tips on setup, such as ensuring you disable the DI on the projector before calibrating.


----------



## DVD MAN

Surge2018 said:


> @DVD MAN:
> Your HDR tone mapping settings seem to be leaving some “light on the table”. My MaxLight is 950 and I have a 0.9 gain screen, but it’s only 100” diag and throw distance is ~10ft. I haven’t measured light output. You can always lower max light for settings that you know will work, but that means you’re reducing the dynamic range of light output.
> Set MaxLight using the overturned boat scene in The Meg. This has been discussed in the Lumagen forum.


I have a question. 
Are there any HDR test Patterns from the *Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns Suit *or the* Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmar* UHD that I can to set the correct MaxLight?


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> I have a question.
> Are there any HDR test Patterns from the *Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns Suit *or the* Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmar* UHD that I can to set the correct MaxLight?


no


----------



## DVD MAN

Thanks


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> I'd be interested if it was any use. Kaleidescope I like the idea on concept, and money wise I'm ok with it. But the issue is I'm Australian. Kaleidescope isn't available to the majority of the planet.


You can get around it with VPN (possibly DNS). I used to do this with the old Sony 4K FMP-X1 and it worked perfectly (that was pre NBN too). I just couldn't be bothered forking out $A8000 the base model Kscope unit.


----------



## jbrinegar

DVD MAN said:


> I have a question.
> Are there any HDR test Patterns from the *Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns Suit *or the* Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmar* UHD that I can to set the correct MaxLight?


Can’t you just use the test patterns built into the Lumagen?


----------



## MOberhardt

OzHDHT said:


> You can get around it with VPN (possibly DNS). I used to do this with the old Sony 4K FMP-X1 and it worked perfectly (that was pre NBN too). I just couldn't be bothered forking out $A8000 the base model Kscope unit.


Hmm so you need a VPN with no quotas? I mean downloading literal terabytes over a VPN? Ouch.


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> Hmm so you need a VPN with no quotas? I mean downloading literal terabytes over a VPN? Ouch.


Most decent VPNs won't cause you any issues there. I've had a few like Golden Frog that work perfectly in such situations. Never seen it with Strong VPN either. Definitely doesn't exist with DNS services either. Usenet providers yes for sure by comparison.


----------



## jqmn

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks for that. When I started to try this last time, I now remember I had hit a snag: I could never seem to get my Windows laptop where my Colourspace installation is to connect with my Lumagen over USB in order to auto-use it's internal patterns for the LUT.
> 
> No matter what I did, I'd always get some error popup (was trying to first connect to get a software update on the Lumagen with the laptop). This includes doing all the suggested troubleshooting of rebooting the Lumagen as the error details recommended.
> 
> Basically the Device Manager entry shows "USB-UART" device when I connect to the Lumagen's USB to the Lumagen, and even shows it on COM3, but when I load up the software update and select COM3 in the menu and hit Start it always pops up with that error.
> 
> Any additional troubleshooting steps I should be taking?


I don't have this issue but I have also installed the ftdi drivers that @ConnecTEDDD posted links to (ftdichip.com/drivers/vcp.htm) in the calibration forum-- JETI/Klein/Lumagen/eeColor/Discus Virtual COM Port.... If this doesn't work for you I suggest looking at just using the patch generator built into CS instead of the Lumagen. If you still have problem in that you can't even connect to the Lumagen to upload the LUT then you might want to call Jim P. at Lumagen. I know it may be a time zone thing but he really is available to help solve this kind of issue,


----------



## Sittler27

jqmn said:


> I don't have this issue but I have also installed the ftdi drivers that @ConnecTEDDD posted links to (ftdichip.com/drivers/vcp.htm) in the calibration forum-- JETI/Klein/Lumagen/eeColor/Discus Virtual COM Port.... If this doesn't work for you I suggest looking at just using the patch generator built into CS instead of the Lumagen. If you still have problem in that you can't even connect to the Lumagen to upload the LUT then you might want to call Jim P. at Lumagen. I know it may be a time zone thing but he really is available to help solve this kind of issue,


Thanks for this. It worked.

Also, could someone tell me at what marker in The Meg is that overturned boat scene we are to use for setting Max Light?
I had previously thought setting Max Light was done by measuring max nits and then multiplying that by 5-6x? Is using the boat scene lead to more accuracy than that?


----------



## MDesigns

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks for this. It worked.
> 
> Also, could someone tell me at what marker in The Meg is that overturned boat scene we are to use for setting Max Light?
> I had previously thought setting Max Light was done by measuring max nits and then multiplying that by 5-6x? *Is using the boat scene lead to more accuracy than that?*


No.


----------



## Chris5

Hi Guys, I can’t seem to get prime on my Apple4K to play in HDR anymore. It used to work fine but since about 6 weeks ago it hasn’t worked. I can force the switch to HDR in A4K menu, but as soon as program starts it always switches back to SDR. The only thing I can think has changed is a version update to my Pro. Any ideas? Thanks.

p.s. I have Rate and Format match on.


----------



## bferbrache

Prime app on the Apple TV is still not working correctly with HDR content. It was a problem with the Nvidia Shield as well but that seems to be sorted now. Hopefully they will resolve the issue with the Apple soon. 
Cheers 
Brian


----------



## bferbrache

Apple TV owners' thread. FAQ in first post


Streaming is still consistently inconsistent while services and hardware manufacturers figure out how to get it right.




www.avsforum.com


----------



## audioguy

bferbrache said:


> Prime app on the Apple TV is still not working correctly with HDR content. It was a problem with the Nvidia Shield as well but that seems to be sorted now. Hopefully they will resolve the issue with the Apple soon.
> Cheers
> Brian


I'm sure it's just a coincidence , but given Amazon is a huge competitor of Apple for streaming content, it is not a surprise that things like that occur - which I why I use the ATV box for viewing Apple stuff and a Nvidia for watching everything else.


----------



## Chris5

Ah, so it’s not just me then, thanks. Interestingly I get prime hdr out of my skyQ box but it’s fixed to 50hz so is useless for any non-uk program content because of the pulsing judder


----------



## Sittler27

Edit: Ok, it's amazing what a few hours of learning will do.

I understand now that there's no need to do an autocal so I'm resetting my JVC back with INIT file and doing gamma only AC.

What I'd really like to know from some JVC owners who have done this before is what to input into my Colourspace software for the 3DLUT creation.

I want to create a 1D+3D for SDR and then a 1D+3D for HDR.











*__*

I wasn't sure where to post this set of questions since they are varied but I am in general attempting to calibrate and create/apply a 3DLUT to my Lumagen RP.
My display is a JVC NX9/DCR and I have a Studiotek 130 138" scope screen.
Throw is 15.5' & lamp has 80hrs.
My Lumagen RP was pre-configured by @Kris Deering to use two modes (SDR & HDR) and switches between them depending on content.

Yesterday I managed to do what I understand is the first step which was a successful JVC Autocal (with alternate meter - i1DisplayPro).
I created a 2.4 gamma in the Custom1 slot and selected that for the HDR Tone Mapping value ahead of the HDR10 cals below.
I performed 2 gamma cals: one for low lamp/SDRNatural/no filter + one for high lamp/HDR10user4/filteron both with diffuser on, iris fully opened, and the meter placed 3' away from lens facing projector.
I performed 3 colour cals: one for low lamp/SDRNatural/no filter/iris=-9 + one for high lamp/HDR10user4/filteron/iris=0 + low lamp/HDR10user4/filteroff/iris=0, all with diffuser off, and the meter placed ~2-3' away facing screen center slightly tilted up.

After JVC AC, I used Colourspace to measure my nits for the HDR mode as follows:
Low Lamp & Filter Off = 98.7 nits
High Lamp & Filter On = 109.5 nits
High Lamp & Filter Off = 134 nits (didn't calibrate this mode - just measured)

*Questions:*
1. About low vs. high lamp: High lamp eroding my bulb is not a concern for me, but while the high lamp fan noise is tolerable I am a little bit of an audiophile and have always run it on low lamp and am more used to the whisper quiet of that mode.
Given the above measures and how running wide filter/highlamp yields only 11 more nits than nofilter/lowlamp, I'm curious what most would do in this regard?
Or would you run in nofilter/highlamp to take advantage of the ~35 extra nits over low lamp?
Of course, my eyes like the extra light of high lamp but I'm trying to be practical here.

2. Next steps/3DLUT: Apart from checking my Brightness/Contrast post-JVC AC, in the past I would normally at this point use the Lumagen's internal patterns alongside my EODIS3 and Colourspace software to manually adjust my JVC's gains/offset settings to get a nice linear greyscale, etc.
Am I correct in assuming now that since I intend to load a 3DLUT, that I should just skip this manual calibration step (keep all those JVC settings at 0) and instead look to create/load a 3DLUT into the my Lumagen using Colourspace?
Are there any other steps I should be following at this point?

I intend to follow this Light Illusion resource in generating the 3DLUT.
I also intend to create the 3DLUT using the Lumagen's internal reference patterns and Colourspace's auto-integration with those patterns (which I finally managed to get working).


----------



## bjorg

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks for this. It worked.
> 
> Also, could someone tell me at what marker in The Meg is that overturned boat scene we are to use for setting Max Light?
> I had previously thought setting Max Light was done by measuring max nits and then multiplying that by 5-6x? Is using the boat scene lead to more accuracy than that?


If you have a Kaleidescape, I created a script to play some recommended scenes for setting DTM: Lumagen RadiancePro DTM Script | Kaleidescape Owners Forum (kscapeowners.com)


----------



## Sittler27

bjorg said:


> If you have a Kaleidescape, I created a script to play some recommended scenes for setting DTM: Lumagen RadiancePro DTM Script | Kaleidescape Owners Forum (kscapeowners.com)


Don’t have one. But they sure do look nice.

question: how do I find out whatto input into source/destination gamut’s. I know my Lumagen puts out SDR2020 but not sure how to configure LUT.
My guess:
Source = Rec709 2.2 with JVC on SDR and UHD Rec2020 on HDR??
Dest= DCI P3 or UHD rec2020?? For NX9

I can’t make sense with also this would be CMS1 for HDR on the Lumagen.
what do I put in source and destination?

And also if peak chroma should be enabled.


----------



## Erod

Can't get video out of Panasonic ub820. I can see the menu, but no video when I hit play. Audio works fine.

Same with Roku, bit no menu there at all. No video. Only audio.

Video fine from DirecTV. Not sure why this works and other sources don't.

All switching in the Lumagen.

Any ideas? Been fighting with this all night.


----------



## scrowe

Erod said:


> Can't get video out of Panasonic ub820. I can see the menu, but no video when I hit play. Audio works fine.
> 
> Same with Roku, bit no menu there at all. No video. Only audio.
> 
> Video fine from DirecTV. Not sure why this works and other sources don't.
> 
> All switching in the Lumagen.
> 
> Any ideas? Been fighting with this all night.


Try setting EDID to 1080p in the Lumagen Menu/Options/HDMI setup/VideoEDID, the UB20 should then force 1080p out to see if the picture is ok at lower bandwidth. If so recheck cable plugging and try swapping HDMI cables.


----------



## Erod

scrowe said:


> Try setting EDID to 1080p in the Lumagen Menu/Options/HDMI setup/VideoEDID, the UB20 should then force 1080p out to see if the picture is ok at lower bandwidth. If so recheck cable plugging and try swapping HDMI cables.


Thanks, I'll try that.

I've never had a video issue at all. I took out my Blu-ray player yesterday to help somebody set up a TV, and when I reinstalled it I had this problem.


----------



## bferbrache

Erod said:


> Can't get video out of Panasonic ub820. I can see the menu, but no video when I hit play. Audio works fine.
> 
> Same with Roku, bit no menu there at all. No video. Only audio.
> 
> Video fine from DirecTV. Not sure why this works and other sources don't.
> 
> All switching in the Lumagen.
> 
> Any ideas? Been fighting with this all night.


Have you tried using the direct TV input hdmi cable with the Panasonic to see if that works? I mean unplug the cable from the direct TV receiver and plug it in to the 820 
Cheers 
Brian


----------



## Erod

bferbrache said:


> Have you tried using the direct TV input hdmi cable with the Panasonic to see if that works? I mean unplug the cable from the direct TV receiver and plug it in to the 820
> Cheers
> Brian


I use the exact same type of cable for the Blu-ray player, DirecTV, and the Roku. I never had a problem before. Now the Blu-ray player and the Roku don't work. I get audio but no video from those two. 

I should get a chance to work with it in about an hour.


----------



## bferbrache

Erod said:


> I use the exact same type of cable for the Blu-ray player, DirecTV, and the Roku. I never had a problem before. Now the Blu-ray player and the Roku don't work. I get audio but no video from those two.
> 
> I should get a chance to work with it in about an hour.


Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant to try to use the same radiance input and cable as you know works with the direct TV. So I'm suggesting that you unplug the hdmi cable from the back of the direct TV receiver and plug it into the Panasonic. If that works then you know something is amiss with the other input (and not the Panasonic) 
Cheers 
Brian


----------



## Erod

scrowe said:


> Try setting EDID to 1080p in the Lumagen Menu/Options/HDMI setup/VideoEDID, the UB20 should then force 1080p out to see if the picture is ok at lower bandwidth. If so recheck cable plugging and try swapping HDMI cables.


Changed it to 1080p, and still no video. I can only see the Panasonic main menu page, then when I try to play the disc, nothing. Tried another cable, and nothing.

Still no video from Roku either, even on the menu page.


----------



## Erod

If I do a factory reset, do I lose everything?


----------



## sjschaff

Try eliminating a link in the chain...connecting the problem sources directly to the projector, just to see if you're getting video or not. That way you either know the Lumagen's input may be the issue.


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> Try eliminating a link in the chain...connecting the problem sources directly to the projector, just to see if you're getting video or not. That way you either know the Lumagen's input may be the issue.


Yes, if I go through the Processor directly through to the projector, I get video.

I can only get video from DirecTV through the Lumagen now.


----------



## netroamer

Erod said:


> Yes, if I go through the Processor directly through to the projector, I get video.
> 
> I can only get video from DirecTV through the Lumagen now.


Are the two units connected to the same input card on the Lumagen? Will you get video if you use the directv input? Also, FYI, the Lumagen prioritizes inputs in the following manner...1,3,5,7,2,4,6,8 assuming 8 inputs. In any event the odds first then the evens.


----------



## sjschaff

So, that suggests that either the physical input or output on the Lumangen has a problem. However, as you said previously your DirecTV device can successfully send from the Lumagen to the projector, that would rule out either the physical output connector or cable to the projector as the source of the problem. So, John's comment is the right place to check. If you move to other physical inputs on the Lumagen or even swap the cable from the DirecTV to one of the other Lumagen inputs does that work?


----------



## Erod

I'll check right now.


----------



## Erod

netroamer said:


> Are the two units connected to the same input card on the Lumagen? Will you get video if you use the directv input? Also, FYI, the Lumagen prioritizes inputs in the following manner...1,3,5,7,2,4,6,8 assuming 8 inputs. In any event the odds first then the evens.


I moved the DirecTV to the 2 input( where the Blu-ray was), and I do get video.

I did get the player menu before on Blu-ray though, just not the video when I started the movie.

This seems to be a 4K/HDR output issue in the Lumagen? It worked fine when I took the Lumagen out of the chain.


----------



## netroamer

Erod said:


> I moved the DirecTV to the 2 input( where the Blu-ray was), and I do get video.
> 
> I did get the player menu before on Blu-ray though, just not the video when I started the movie.
> 
> This seems to be a 4K/HDR output issue in the Lumagen? It worked fine when I took the Lumagen out of the chain.


I assume the video out of the lumagen in either 2 or 4 with 1 being audio?


----------



## sjschaff

Can we assume you've made no changes to the Lumagen's settings (like enabling/disabling audio/video on the cards)? I think that's what John is suggesting, right? Gets really complicated if you're not returning everything back to where you left off...

Also, try a standard DVD vs. 4K UHD in the player to see if that reflects a failure to switch from SDR to HDR...


----------



## Erod

netroamer said:


> I assume the video out of the lumagen in either 2 or 4 with 1 being audio?


It's the 4242, and I have video out of Output 2 and audio out of Output 1 to the processor.

All sources are first sent to the Lumagen for switching, then audio sent to the processor and video to the projector.


----------



## netroamer

sjschaff said:


> Can we assume you've made no changes to the Lumagen's settings (like enabling/disabling audio/video on the cards)? I think that's what John is suggesting, right? Gets really complicated if you're not returning everything back to where you left off...


Have you tried the AC reboot of the Lumagen. While the AC is off, reconnect the 2 units and then power up the Lumagen. It is possible that a static discharge happened when disconnecting or reconnecting inputs.


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> Can we assume you've made no changes to the Lumagen's settings (like enabling/disabling audio/video on the cards)? I think that's what John is suggesting, right? Gets really complicated if you're not returning everything back to where you left off...


I messed with the output setup page, but it's now "AB" in the Enable 12 as it should be.


----------



## Erod

netroamer said:


> Have you tried the AC reboot of the Lumagen. While the AC is off, reconnect the 2 units and then power up the Lumagen.


Ok. I disconnect the sources, unplug the Lumagen, reconnect them, then power up


----------



## sjschaff

So, you're using Auto 2 for output mode? I believe that would be the default.


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> So, you're using Auto 2 for output mode? I believe that would be the default.


Yes, and no luck with the power up.

I do notice the RS3000 is showing source as 1080i 60 with 1920 x 1080 resolution in the blank screen.

The Lumagen apparently can't get 1080p or 4K to the projector.


----------



## sjschaff

Do you have a trusted backup of your configuration that you can restore? I don't know if the one saved in non-volatile memory would be correct at this point.


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> Do you have a trusted backup of your configuration that you can restore? I don't know if the one saved in non-volatile memory would be correct at this point.


Dumb question, but how do I save it other than just the Lumagen prompt?


----------



## Erod

Solved. Thanks to you all for your time and help.

Kris responded and told me to try the 0999 reset. Didn't work, so I turned it off so it wouldn't save.

Then turned it on and tried 0999 again, and it resolved. No idea why, but I'm and up and running.

Strange. No video issue like this ever before.


----------



## Sittler27

Sorry asked this before but I think got lost a while back.

Trying to profile my display and create some LUTs, but am unsure on the following parameters to enter into my calibration software:
A. Target Colourspace for profiling - can someone confirm this s/b UHDRec2020 for HDR profile and Rec709 for SDR profile?
B. Source Gamut for 3DLUT - can someone confirm this s/b UHD

I have an NX9 set to Profile Off and my Lumagen RP 4242 is on the latest firmware.

Here is what my Lumagen shows while displaying SDR material:









Here is what my Lumagen shows when displaying HDR material:









And here is what my Lumagen says for Output Colorspace









Also, other than performing the Black Level adjustments and disabling HDR Intensity Mapping prior to performing the profiling and LUTs, are there any other settings to be disabled or changed?


----------



## sjschaff

Erod said:


> Solved. Thanks to you all for your time and help.
> 
> Kris responded and told me to try the 0999 reset. Didn't work, so I turned it off so it wouldn't save.
> 
> Then turned it on and tried 0999 again, and it resolved. No idea why, but I'm and up and running.
> 
> Strange. No video issue like this ever before.


I think when you first issue a 0999 reset it simply does a temporary factory reset. Probably what happened on the power off / power on is that the saved configuration (which you likely altered) was reloaded. But that would have meant you'd made a change that was temporary and not shown in YELLOW. There are some of these I think, but maybe I'm reading the manual incorrectly.


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> I think when you first issue a 0999 reset it simply does a temporary factory reset. Probably what happened on the power off / power on is that the saved configuration (which you likely altered) was reloaded. But that would have meant you'd made a change that was temporary and not shown in YELLOW. There are some of these I think, but maybe I'm reading the manual incorrectly.


I'm not out of the woods yet. 

The 0999 got my video back up and running, but it's erased my settings and my LUT calibration from ChadB.

I don't want to save this as a result. Not sure how to save everything so I can reload it, and not sure if that will put me back in the same situation.

I'm not going to save the change until I have this figured out.


----------



## sjschaff

So Chad never provided you with the backup file or had you create a backup? Try doing a search on your computer or cloud for a file with an rxd file type. Or maybe it's embedded in an email he may have sent and you put away. Or you've got it on a thumb or other external drive somewhere. I know...grasping at straws is not great.

By the way, did you give this a go?

*Restore from Internal Backup memory *

During calibration, the video technician can save the resulting Lumagen configuration to a special configuration memory. This command restores that configuration. A *SAVE *is required to make the restore permanent. The command is: 

*MENU *→ *Save*→ *Restore Backup *→ *OK*


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> So Chad never provided you with the backup file or had you create a backup? Try doing a search on your computer or cloud for a file with an rxd file type. Or maybe it's embedded in an email he may have sent and you put away. Or you've got it on a thumb or other external drive somewhere. I know...grasping at straws is not great.
> 
> By the way, did you give this a go?
> 
> *Restore from Internal Backup memory *
> 
> During calibration, the video technician can save the resulting Lumagen configuration to a special configuration memory. This command restores that configuration. A *SAVE *is required to make the restore permanent. The command is:
> 
> *MENU *→ *Save*→ *Restore Backup *→ *OK*


Chad sent me the files for the projector but not the Lumagen. Perhaps an oversight.

There are no backup settings in the Lumagen to load. I tried to do that.


----------



## Erod

sjschaff said:


> So Chad never provided you with the backup file or had you create a backup? Try doing a search on your computer or cloud for a file with an rxd file type. Or maybe it's embedded in an email he may have sent and you put away. Or you've got it on a thumb or other external drive somewhere. I know...grasping at straws is not great.
> 
> By the way, did you give this a go?
> 
> *Restore from Internal Backup memory *
> 
> During calibration, the video technician can save the resulting Lumagen configuration to a special configuration memory. This command restores that configuration. A *SAVE *is required to make the restore permanent. The command is:
> 
> *MENU *→ *Save*→ *Restore Backup *→ *OK*


I did find a file from Chad, and it's an rxd file. How do I open that in Windows? Can't find a useful link anywhere.


----------



## sjschaff

To perform a restore of the rxd file you first get the utility testindex.php and follow the instructions. Cannot recall how it actually runs but I think it's much like the firmware, except that it may require a two step process of first reading the rxd file and then loading it from memory. But I may be recalling the backup process instead. Just take your time...


----------



## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> To perform a restore of the rxd file you first get the utility testindex.php and follow the instructions. Cannot recall how it actually runs but I think it's much like the firmware, except that it may require a two step process of first reading the rxd file and then loading it from memory. But I may be recalling the backup process instead. Just take your time...


no no no. This is NOT what you do. Just download the configuration utility from the Lumagen site. Run it and select load config file and select the RXD file. Then chose load config to Lumagen and run it.


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> I did find a file from Chad, and it's an rxd file. How do I open that in Windows? Can't find a useful link anywhere.


I told you in texts that after you did the reset to see if that is the issue turn off the Lumagen and then turn it back on. All your settings and the calibration will be back the way they were before. Then see if your video continues to work. You only lose your settings and calibration if you went into the Lumagen and did a save after you did the reset.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> I told you in texts that after you did the reset to see if that is the issue turn off the Lumagen and then turn it back on. All your settings and the calibration will be back the way they were before. Then see if your video continues to work. You only lose your settings and calibration if you went into the Lumagen and did a save after you did the reset.


Yes, Kris, and I didn't save it, so when I powered back up, all of the calibration and setting were still in place. However, I still have no video for blu ray or Roku, so I'm still stuck.

What I was referring to above was a way to save and open Chad's calibration, which is in an RXD file, in the event I ultimately have to do a factory reset. I can't find a program that will do it. Notepad opened it, but it's just gibberish. I can't find a site that has a download for Windows that works. 

As it stands, I'm in exactly the same situation as when we first communicated last night. The 0999 did work to get the sources to send video, but I didn't save it. When I power cycled, I'm back to where i was before with no video.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> no no no. This is NOT what you do. Just download the configuration utility from the Lumagen site. Run it and select load config file and select the RXD file. Then chose load config to Lumagen and run it.


Are you saying I should do a factory reset, then do this through the Lumagen site? If so, I will do this when I get a chance today.


----------



## sjschaff

Follow Kris's post  #12,773  
What he's recommending is what I pointed to in my post. My link takes you to the Lumagen page. But to be a bit more circuitous, just go to Lumagen then Support and then Utilities and then click on DOWNLOAD (first one is the latest). Just make sure that you download it to the system that is physically wired to your Lumagen and has access to the rxd file. Then just launch it and follow the instructions as Kris stated.

But, you may want to check with Chad first to find out if the rxd file you have is the most current one (if he's done multiple calibrations for you).


----------



## Erod

Much thanks to Kris Deering for his customer support and helping me get the Lumagen video issues back to normal.

Although.....I'm not sure either of us will ever know how. LOL

I couldn't get the Lumagen utility to accept my config file, nor would it recognize my device. Made no sense because I was able to download firmware updates just fine.

So, three times I deleted the config files from my computer and reloaded them (per Kris' instruction). The first two times didn't work and I couldn't do anything. However, the third time, It accepted the config file and allowed me to download it into the Lumagen. Voila, everything worked perfectly.

Again, thanks to Kris for his efforts and time, and back to watching content.


----------



## Sittler27

I have my Lumagen RP hooked up to my JVC NX9 and the NX9 is in Auto (16-235) mode but I cannot seem to view some of the Lumagen's internal patterns correctly (black than black).

The Video Black pattern for example is just one big black/dark grey screen and cannot see the "Black" letters or area down the middle.
I've tried cranking up the Brightness on the JVC as well as switching around to 0-255, Superwhite, etc.

I'm running HDMI video from Lumagen straight to projector with 35' RUIPRO fiber optic HDMI cable.


----------



## humbug2

Several days ago I installed the latest update in my 4242 with 18 in and out. Last night I watched some tv, switched to a powered down input for 15 minutes, after which any button on the remote flashes a blue light but nothing is detected by the PJ. I tried this for about two minutes then unplugged it for 30 seconds. Plugged in back in and for 3 or 4 minutes the blue light would flash at irregular sequences, a few too many seconds apart. After about 5 minutes the red light came on and seemingly normal operation resumed. 

When I installed the update I also had a now forgotten problem that took 2 off-on cycles from the remote to resolve.


----------



## jrp

humbug2 said:


> Several days ago I installed the latest update in my 4242 with 18 in and out. Last night I watched some tv, switched to a powered down input for 15 minutes, after which any button on the remote flashes a blue light but nothing is detected by the PJ. I tried this for about two minutes then unplugged it for 30 seconds. Plugged in back in and for 3 or 4 minutes the blue light would flash at irregular sequences, a few too many seconds apart. After about 5 minutes the red light came on and seemingly normal operation resumed.
> 
> When I installed the update I also had a now forgotten problem that took 2 off-on cycles from the remote to resolve.


Sounds like the update did not complete correctly. A failed update can lead to a random weird behavior (such as one command not working, or as may be the issue here I/O ROM re-flash).

I recommend doing the update again using the "Boot Mode Update" method with your PC plugged into wall power. This is the same as normal, except once you are ready to press Start, instead remove and restore the Pro wall power (do _not_ turn it on), and then press Start within 10 seconds. The Boot Mode Update is running only the update. If an update failed this can be the only way to recover full function since the Boot-code section is never over-written and so cannot be corrupted by a failed update. So, if the update had an issue this should resolve it.

If the LED flashes' between blue, and blue+red, after power on it means the unit thinks it needs to re-flash the Flash ROMs for the I/O chips, and the flashing LED indicates it is doing this re-flash. Do _not_ pull power if you see this flashing.

This should not happen unless you updated from a release with older I/O Flash-ROM code, an I/O chip flash ROM is corrupted, or if the main code is corrupted so there is a false indication of the need to re-flash.

If the I/O chips do get re-flashed, after re-flashing completes, wait for a minute with the unit on. Then pull and restore wall power so the unit has a clean boot.


----------



## jrp

Sittler27 said:


> I have my Lumagen RP hooked up to my JVC NX9 and the NX9 is in Auto (16-235) mode but I cannot seem to view some of the Lumagen's internal patterns correctly (black than black).
> 
> The Video Black pattern for example is just one big black/dark grey screen and cannot see the "Black" letters or area down the middle.
> I've tried cranking up the Brightness on the JVC as well as switching around to 0-255, Superwhite, etc.
> 
> I'm running HDMI video from Lumagen straight to projector with 35' RUIPRO fiber optic HDMI cable.


Make sure the source is SDR, or there is no source, so the Pro is in SDR mode.

You can use the Radiance Pro "Black" to raise the level the Pro sends for Black to overcome this. This is the step I call "setting digital black." in the Radiance Pro setup slides (attached). First set the "optical black" as described in the slides, and then set the "digital black."


----------



## Sittler27

jrp said:


> Make sure the source is SDR, or there is no source, so the Pro is in SDR mode.
> 
> You can use the Radiance Pro "Black" to raise the level the Pro sends for Black to overcome this. This is the step I call "setting digital black." in the Radiance Pro setup slides (attached). First set the "optical black" as described in the slides, and then set the "digital black."


Still doesn't work - I even cranked my JVC's brightness to 40 and the Lumagen's Black to 8 and I still can't get the Video Black to display on the pattern. Just a big grey screen.
I'll just set my contrast and brightness on my JVC and Lumagen to zeros and assume it's right I guess.

On an unrelated note: I run 2 modes on my JVC (SDR and HDR) and my Lumagen's CMS0 is configured to output Rec709 and CMS1 to SDR2020.

Before running an SDR calibration with JVC in Profile Off, should I be setting the CMS0 to output SDR2020 like your instructions? 
Or leave it as Rec709 and calibrate to that?


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> Still doesn't work - I even cranked my JVC's brightness to 40 and the Lumagen's Black to 8 and I still can't get the Video Black to display on the pattern. Just a big grey screen.
> I'll just set my contrast and brightness on my JVC and Lumagen to zeros and assume it's right I guess.
> 
> On an unrelated note: I run 2 modes on my JVC (SDR and HDR) and my Lumagen's CMS0 is configured to output Rec709 and CMS1 to SDR2020.
> 
> Before running an SDR calibration with JVC in Profile Off, should I be setting the CMS0 to output SDR2020 like your instructions?
> Or leave it as Rec709 and calibrate to that?


That pattern is just a solid black screen. You’re supposed to lower brightness until it’s no longer gray and stops getting any blacker.

Then you use the brightness pattern with the black bars to fine tune it


----------



## Sittler27

jbrinegar said:


> That pattern is just a solid black screen. You’re supposed to lower brightness until it’s no longer gray and stops getting any blacker.
> 
> Then you use the brightness pattern with the black bars to fine tune it


Ah. Ok. I was more focused on how I wasn’t able to see the -4 to -1 stripes and thought that other pattern wasn’t all black and had black written on it.

any ideas on my other question?


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> Ah. Ok. I was more focused on how I wasn’t able to see the -4 to -1 stripes and thought that other pattern wasn’t all black and had black written on it.
> 
> any ideas on my other question?


i won’t be much help with calibration. I use chromapure which is different than what you use I think.
With chromapure you calibrate cms 0 to sdr2020, then copy it to cms1. Then you do cms 0 to rec709.
I’m not familiar with other calibration programs unfortunately


----------



## Sittler27

jbrinegar said:


> i won’t be much help with calibration. I use chromapure which is different than what you use I think.
> With chromapure you calibrate cms 0 to sdr2020, then copy it to cms1. Then you do cms 0 to rec709.
> I’m not familiar with other calibration programs unfortunately


That’s ok. Do you also have 2 JVC modes in use with the RP? One for SDR and one for HDR? Or just one mode you use for both?


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> That’s ok. Do you also have 2 JVC modes in use with the RP? One for SDR and one for HDR? Or just one mode you use for both?


Two modes. One for sdr (d65/and 
rec709/gamma 2.3) and for hdr (d65/rec2020/gamma 2.4). They auto switch automatically since I use the hdr flag (sdh2020) on the Lumagen


----------



## Sittler27

jbrinegar said:


> Two modes. One for sdr (d65/and
> rec709/gamma 2.3) and for hdr (d65/rec2020/gamma 2.4). They auto switch automatically since I use the hdr flag (sdh2020) on the Lumagen


Ok, ditto on mine.

Right now I’m battling the Lumagen feeding my calibration software the occasional wrong patch pattern when set to automatic. It’s causing all kinds of weird results on the graphs leading to need for reruns. 
Only works for sure after a reboot of the Lumagen RP and then starts getting flaky again a couple greyscale runs later.
Frustrating amidst a pretty steep learning curve here. 

Going to do one more reboot and then hope it can make it through an entire 17pt cube profile accurately overnight.


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> Ok, ditto on mine.
> 
> Right now I’m battling the Lumagen feeding my calibration software the occasional wrong patch pattern when set to automatic. It’s causing all kinds of weird results on the graphs leading to need for reruns.
> Only works for sure after a reboot of the Lumagen RP and then starts getting flaky again a couple greyscale runs later.
> Frustrating amidst a pretty steep learning curve here.
> 
> Going to do one more reboot and then hope it can make it through an entire 17pt cube profile accurately overnight.


If you can do a JVC autocal, its very good IMO on both gamma and color (and just skip the lumagen 3d lut) Of course, the lumagen can do better. But for an amateur like me, I find the JVC autocal will get you 90% there, especially in SDR. IMO of course.


----------



## Sittler27

jbrinegar said:


> If you can do a JVC autocal, its very good IMO on both gamma and color (and just skip the lumagen 3d lut) Of course, the lumagen can do better. But for an amateur like me, I find the JVC autocal will get you 90% there, especially in SDR. IMO of course.


I hear you, and certainly have access to be able to do that.

I had originally hired a calibrator to perform and load all LUTs onto the Lumagen, but had to cancel because I lost faith in his skillset. So I decided to take it on myself as I've never seen the results with the LUTs working properly.
You are right though, the learning curve is steep and the available resources and even access to some of the fundamental questions (even on a forum like this) is extremely limited.

I've been piecing it together from scratch and snippets for weeks, and am almost there now so too late to turn back.

One of my latest unanswered questions is really what to enter into these fields on the right when configuring my cal software to load the LUTs to a location on the Lumagen. Just not sure what the TGP ones are, but I think for HDR for example it is CMS= CMS1, TPG Range =HDR, TPG Space=Rec2020, HDR Info Frame = Custom....but not sure. Any similarities to Chromapure settings for loading the LUTs?


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> I hear you, and certainly have access to be able to do that.
> 
> I had originally hired a calibrator to perform and load all LUTs onto the Lumagen, but had to cancel because I lost faith in his skillset. So I decided to take it on myself as I've never seen the results with the LUTs working properly.
> You are right though, the learning curve is steep and the available resources and even access to some of the fundamental questions (even on a forum like this) is extremely limited.
> 
> I've been piecing it together from scratch and snippets for weeks, and am almost there now so too late to turn back.
> 
> One of my latest unanswered questions is really what to enter into these fields on the right when configuring my cal software to load the LUTs to a location on the Lumagen. Just not sure what the TGP ones are, but I think for HDR for example it is CMS= CMS1, TPG Range =HDR, TPG Space=Rec2020, HDR Info Frame = Custom....but not sure. Any similarities to Chromapure settings for loading the LUTs?
> 
> View attachment 3165986


Sorry Sittler, thats quite a bit different, I dont recognize those :-( 

Hopefully someone on here uses the same software can help you out


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Ok, ditto on mine.
> 
> Right now I’m battling the Lumagen feeding my calibration software the occasional wrong patch pattern when set to automatic. It’s causing all kinds of weird results on the graphs leading to need for reruns.
> Only works for sure after a reboot of the Lumagen RP and then starts getting flaky again a couple greyscale runs later.
> Frustrating amidst a pretty steep learning curve here.
> 
> Going to do one more reboot and then hope it can make it through an entire 17pt cube profile accurately overnight.


Are you using Lightspace / Colourspace? Can you make it display the wrong patch manually using the sliders, or is it just when under automatic control? You might not have enough delay set in the calibration software, I usually have a delay of 0.25s configured. When this goes wrong you end up with a measurement that has part of a previous patch in it, as the measurement works by integrating the light received over a period of time.


----------



## Bill DePalma

I am trying to upgrade the firmware on my 4242 Lumagen to the latest version but cannot establish a connection between my windows 10 laptop and the Lumagen. I also tried a Mac laptop booted to windows 10, no luck. I am using standard usb cable to connect, I have tried various numbered com Ports in the software as well as various USB ports on the pc. I tried the cold boot method as well. Does the cable need to be the original usb cable supplied by Lumagen because I don’t have that. Any ideas? Thanks


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> Are you using Lightspace / Colourspace? Can you make it display the wrong patch manually using the sliders, or is it just when under automatic control? You might not have enough delay set in the calibration software, I usually have a delay of 0.25s configured. When this goes wrong you end up with a measurement that has part of a previous patch in it, as the measurement works by integrating the light received over a period of time.


Yes, I think that is exactly what was happening on the case of it reading the previous patch.

I am using Colourspace. It only occurs in automatic control.

HOwever, I noticed I was not on the latest CS software so have since updated it and will report back if the issue is gone once I resume my calibration tonight.


----------



## Karl Maga

Bill DePalma said:


> I am trying to upgrade the firmware on my 4242 Lumagen to the latest version but cannot establish a connection between my windows 10 laptop and the Lumagen. I also tried a Mac laptop booted to windows 10, no luck. I am using standard usb cable to connect, I have tried various numbered com Ports in the software as well as various USB ports on the pc. I tried the cold boot method as well. Does the cable need to be the original usb cable supplied by Lumagen because I don’t have that. Any ideas? Thanks


Make sure you peruse the included document from the FW zip file because it explains how to find your COM port within Windows. This is crucial.

Any serviceable USB cable should suffice, the original is not required.

Sometimes I have to slow down the connection speed in order to get a connection. Have you tried that?


----------



## Bill DePalma

Karl Maga said:


> Make sure you peruse the included document from the FW zip file because it explains how to find your COM port within Windows. This is crucial.
> 
> Any serviceable USB cable should suffice, the original is not required.
> 
> Sometimes I have to slow down the connection speed in order to get a connection. Have you tried that?


Karl
thanks, yes I have studied the com port instructions but in windows 10 there is no com port as detailed in the instructions, which is they indicate is for windows 7. I tried slowing down the connection speed but not to it’s slowest rate. Will try that. Unless there is something in the instructions I am missing I am not sure what else to try. I do have a null modem cable that I used to update my JVC rs600. Tried that too but that did not work either.


----------



## Karl Maga

Bill DePalma said:


> Karl
> thanks, yes I have studied the com port instructions but in windows 10 there is no com port as detailed in the instructions, which is they indicate is for windows 7. I tried slowing down the connection speed but not to it’s slowest rate. Will try that. Unless there is something in the instructions I am missing I am not sure what else to try. I do have a null modem cable that I used to update my JVC rs600. Tried that too but that did not work either.


I'll see if I can recall what I had to do in Device Manager to get COM ports to display. Your point has jogged my memory that I had to figure out initially how to get the COM ports to display.

EDIT: here it is, from MS Community: How to identify Com Ports in Windows10 - Microsoft Community

Open *Device Manager*.
Click on *View* in the menu bar and select *Show hidden devices*.
Locate *Ports (COM & LPT)* in the list.
Check for the com ports by expanding the same.

TIP: Once discovered, I created a label with the COM port listed for placement on the laptop that I use for Lumagen FW updates. That way I don't have to look it up each time.


----------



## Clark Burk

Not being smart but make sure the blue light is on not just the red power light. Then when you do the ^^^above the com port should be identified. Mine always comes up com3. enter that in the box that comes up when you open the firmware.


----------



## sunnya23

deleted


----------



## Bill DePalma

Clark Burk said:


> Not being smart but make sure the blue light is on not just the red power light. Then when you do the ^^^above the com port should be identified. Mine always comes up com3. enter that in the box that comes up when you open the firmware.


Thanks all. However, what I see on my laptop in the device manager is not port, comport, but “other devices”, right below network prefs. Opening other devices reveals usb info but no com port number. so something is up with my laptop. But if I do finally get a numbered comport somehow I assume I enter that number into the software’s comport list. I will keep working on it and report back. Yes, the blue light is always on


----------



## OzHDHT

Bill DePalma said:


> Thanks all. However, what I see on my laptop in the device manager is not port, comport, but “other devices”, right below network prefs. Opening other devices reveals usb info but no com port number. so something is up with my laptop. But if I do finally get a numbered comport somehow I assume I enter that number into the software’s comport list. I will keep working on it and report back. Yes, the blue light is always on


Sounds like no USB serial port driver installed. There's links to the correct (FTDI from memory) one here somewhere on this thread. Can be tricky in Windows, I've had mixed results with my HTPC, and 3 different laptops using it over quite a while. Nowadays I just use a spare USB-serial cable to hook my HTPC up permanently to the Lumagen and that never fails.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> Thanks all. However, what I see on my laptop in the device manager is not port, comport, but “other devices”, right below network prefs. Opening other devices reveals usb info but no com port number. so something is up with my laptop. But if I do finally get a numbered comport somehow I assume I enter that number into the software’s comport list. I will keep working on it and report back. Yes, the blue light is always on


Just that quick I found the elusive comport and was able to do the update. I switched computers with an even older Mac running windows and that worked without issue. So I am still not sure why the new pc laptop did not show the comport info. For another day.
thanks so much to you all.


----------



## OzHDHT

Bill DePalma said:


> Just that quick I found the elusive comport and was able to do the update. I switched computers with an even older Mac running windows and that worked without issue. So I am still not sure why the new pc laptop did not show the comport info. For another day.
> thanks so much to you all.


Definitely seems to be an issue with newer Windows 10 PCs/Laptops as I found with my HTPC and struggled to get the drivers to work reliably. Have an old Windows 7 laptop stored near my AV rack that I've had mixed success with, but even that would get tripped up too, be good one time and then wouldn't recognise the connection the next.


----------



## jrp

If you have issues doing a Radiance Pro update, you may need the latest USB-to-Serial driver for your Windows 10 PC from the FTDIchip.com website. There is a Windows driver in the USB to serial chip that is in the Radiance Pro. Windows loads this driver, but Microsoft seems to always be changing things such that you may need to download the latest from the FTDIchip.com website.

Once there click on Drivers, and then VCP (Virtual COM Port), and then download the driver that matches your operating system bits (64 or 32). There are instructions there on how to download and install the updated Windows driver.


----------



## Bill DePalma

jrp said:


> If you have issues doing a Radiance Pro update, you may need the latest USB-to-Serial driver for your Windows 10 PC from the FTDIchip.com website. There is a Windows driver in the USB to serial chip that is in the Radiance Pro. Windows loads this driver, but Microsoft seems to always be changing things such that you may need to download the latest from the FTDIchip.com website.
> 
> Once there click on Drivers, and then VCP (Virtual COM Port), and then download the driver that matches your operating system bits (64 or 32). There are instructions there on how to download and install the updated Windows driver.


Thank you, I just loaded the driver and com port popped right up. Thanks so much


----------



## Surge2018

jbrinegar said:


> Can’t you just use the test patterns built into the Lumagen?


Jim has recommended the overturned boat scene in The Meg for setting MaxLight.


----------



## Surge2018

Chris5 said:


> Hi Guys, I can’t seem to get prime on my Apple4K to play in HDR anymore. It used to work fine but since about 6 weeks ago it hasn’t worked. I can force the switch to HDR in A4K menu, but as soon as program starts it always switches back to SDR. The only thing I can think has changed is a version update to my Pro. Any ideas? Thanks.
> 
> p.s. I have Rate and Format match on.


Same here. It’s a known issue with the Amazon app on ATV. Hopefully it’s fixed soon!


----------



## Technology3456

Surge2018 said:


> Same here. It’s a known issue with the Amazon app on ATV. Hopefully it’s fixed soon!


Big HT brands + fixing things equals...






 

No but hopefully they will. HT technologically is very complicated, way above what I understand. A lot of the time, things do get fixed, so credit where it's due there. A lot of times, things don't. It sounds like Lumagen has a great track record there, but the big TV brands, streaming brands, etc, it's not always the same positive situation. This should be relatively simple to fix though, so it's a bad look that it's taken this long.


----------



## audioguy

Surge2018 said:


> Same here. It’s a known issue with the Amazon app on ATV. Hopefully it’s fixed soon!


Not that I'm a conspiracy theorist, but that is exactly why I only use the ATV for running the Apple stuff. All of my other streaming apps are on a Nvidia Shield.


----------



## Sittler27

Edit: issue resolved by swapping USB adapters.

I seem to be experiencing an issue where usually at about 3/4 of the way through a Cube measure (4-5 hours) the Lumagen stops outputting patches (so it just has a black screen) but yet Colourspace continues to measure (full black pattern now) over and over.

It isn't until I "wake up" the Lumagen by quickly pressing it's menu button and then exiting that a couple seconds later the patches resume displaying and Colourspace continues reading.
But of course by then my cube measure is flawed and I have to abort.


----------



## audioguy

We subscribe to Youtube TV (not the 4K upgrade) which we watch via a Nvidia Shield when are in the theater and I am sometimes simply astonished at the quality of the 1080P images upscaled via the Lumagen/RS4500 that we see. If that was only as good an image as I ever got in my theater, I would never complain. As I have said more than once, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio. Can't imaging home theater life without both. And the image really does seem to improve over time!

What a great product!!!


----------



## Sittler27

I have my Lumagen 4242 setup for using two picture modes on my JVC (SDR and HDR). 

I think I have the output Colourspace menu setup correctly but when I’m on my Nvidia Shield input and using Plex and play an HDR vs non HDR video the JVC doesn’t switch picture modes even though one video is SDR.

However when I switch to my cable tv input it does auto switch to the SDR picture mode. 

Here’s my menus:


----------



## DVD MAN

Hello Folks,

I am in a happy place with the Lumagen Pro and my JVC NX9 at the moment. However I do have a question. If the output of a source is set to 4:44 and the Lumagen does it’s processing at 4:22 what is the final bits of color going to the projector 8bit or 10bit?


----------



## jrp

A couple comments on calibration:

We do not have any known issues with Lightspace/Colourspace, or Calman, that I am aware of. I don't have enough info on Chromapure to say either way.

There are a couple things to be aware of for calibration:

If there is an active source, the patterns can take longer to draw. A while back Craig Rounds reported that, some of the time, Lightspace, Colourspace (and other calibration tools), do not seem to wait long enough to read the patch in this case. So, I recommend selecting an input with no source, or the source is completely off (pull power if an AppleTV or other device that has a Zombie mode that can create a lot of interrupts and slow the patch draw time). You might even pull power on all sources since even an unselected source can create lots of HDMI interrupts and slow down drawing. Since it takes time before the source enters Zombie Mode, it means the problems this can cause might happen hours into the calibration profile run.

Make sure your PC is on wall power. We have seen cases where the USB port has issues on some (but not all) PCs unless they are on wall power. I suspect everyone has their PC on wall power for calibration, but wanted to mention it.

You can add a delay from draw-command to patch-read. This does increase the time to profile, but it might help keep things in sync between the calibration program and the Radiance Pro. If you disconnect all sources, this likely is not needed.

Make sure your PC is not set to go to sleep after a certain amount of time. I think the calibration software should keep the PC awake in any case, but I do this to make sure.

I do not think it should matter, but it would not hurt to shutdown unnecessary applications on the PC on the slim chance they might affect the calibration software profile run. This suggestion is likely me being overly paranoid though.

You might consider a smaller profile first to make sure everything is working. After this completes successfully, then run the large profile.

A consumer level probe (e.g. the i1) can take longer to read and so you need to make sure it is allotted enough time for each read, especially on dark patches. A professional probe (e.g. CR-100, or Kline K10) is much faster and I believe more robust at doing large profiles.


----------



## jrp

DVD MAN said:


> Hello Folks,
> 
> I am in a happy place with the Lumagen Pro and my JVC NX9 at the moment. However I do have a question. If the output of a source is set to 4:44 and the Lumagen does it’s processing at 4:22 what is the final bits of color going to the projector 8bit or 10bit?


For 4:2:0, 4:4:4 or RGB the Pro outputs 8 bits dithered. The dithering is excellent and I do not think you would see any difference, but we recommend 4:2:2, at least for 4k24 movies, as it does get you 12-bits for Y, Cb, and Cr.


----------



## DVD MAN

jrp said:


> For 4:2:0, 4:4:4 or RGB the Pro outputs 8 bits dithered. The dithering is excellent and I do not think you would see any difference, but we recommend 4:2:2, at least for 4k24 movies, as it does get you 12-bits for Y, Cb, and Cr.


Great!
Most of my components output in 4:2:2 So no problem there. However My Zappiti Pro has an issue with banding in 4:2:2
when I set it to 4:4:4 the banding is eliminated. Will the Lumagen allow the 10 bits on the input side in 4:4:4?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I have to say I have been enjoying my 1080p content lately. There are some movies that are not available in 4K. 

The combination of The Lumagen upscaling with a JVC projector makes for a compelling image. There is just something about it. 

Very happy.


----------



## woofer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have to say I have been enjoying my 1080p content lately. There are some movies that are not available in 4K.
> 
> The combination of The Lumagen upscaling with a JVC projector makes for a compelling image. There is just something about it.
> 
> Very happy.


As i live in a remote area in the Victorian Alpine High Country here in Oz , i have limited access to the internet as far as speed and data are concerned. ( City people are spoilt in this regard 😀 ) 

Just recently i set up an ATV ( 1080P version) with Netflix and Amazon Prime ...again 1080p. Some of the content at 1080p and then up scaled via the Lumagen is very very impressive !! Very happy with the results... 😊


----------



## Mark Burton

DVD MAN said:


> Great!
> Most of my components output in 4:2:2 So no problem there. However My Zappiti Pro has an issue with banding in 4:2:2
> when I set it to 4:4:4 the banding is eliminated. Will the Lumagen allow the 10 bits on the input side in 4:4:4?


I’m the same. I have to set my zap to 4:4:4 which resolves 99.9% of issues, although after many months of not noticing any, I did last night on avengers infinity war, when they’re on Titan with the red background. Switching it to 4:2:0 solved the issue.


----------



## OzHDHT

woofer said:


> As i live in a remote area in the Victorian Alpine High Country here in Oz , i have limited access to the internet as far as speed and data are concerned. ( City people are spoilt in this regard 😀 )
> 
> Just recently i set up an ATV ( 1080P version) with Netflix and Amazon Prime ...again 1080p. Some of the content at 1080p and then up scaled via the Lumagen is very very impressive !! Very happy with the results... 😊


Do have fixed wireless at least or at you at the mercy of Sky Muster satellite? I‘ve got fixed wireless at my farm property in the Central West NSW which is really handy and I use an ATV 4K with that (but sadly no Lumagen in that system). It used to max out at 45mbps but it’s recently had an upgrade hit’s 60mbps which is very handy. Still pales next to my regional home’s NBN connection that does a steady102mbps and I just found has the fiber in place outside the property to allow an upgrade soon to giga speeds .


----------



## woofer

OzHDHT said:


> Do have fixed wireless at least or at you at the mercy of Sky Muster satellite? I‘ve got fixed wireless at my farm property in the Central West NSW which is really handy and I use an ATV 4K with that (but sadly no Lumagen in that system). It used to max out at 45mbps but it’s recently had an upgrade hit’s 60mbps which is very handy. Still pales next to my regional home’s NBN connection that does a steady102mbps and I just found has the fiber in place outside the property to allow an upgrade soon to giga speeds .


Tried NBN Wireless and i t was an utter disaster!!! 1-3mpbs when it was working.  

I do have SkyMuster Sat, but its problematic and data costs the earth...

My current solution is using 2 Cel Fi boosters , one set as primary and one a relay combined with a Yagi on my theatre room to enable use of my Mobile data......its 100% stable at around 15mbps. Certainly not suitable for 4K , but 1080p is fine.😊


----------



## woofer

This was typical of the glorious NBN....


----------



## woofer

This is part of my own solution..


----------



## OzHDHT

woofer said:


> This is part of my own solution..


So you‘re on fixed wireless at least, but you’ve adapted it. How is it now with the cel fi gear (I use that for voice in both rural and regional locations due to hopeless mobile signal) . If I told you the scenario that I had to go through on my farm to prove I could get fixed wireless you’d blow out -actually you probably won’t come to think of it. But looks like you may have a similar story. The usual NBN incompetence of not truly having a working signal radiation pattern of the area was the start. I knew very easily I was in line of sight thanks to enough years in businesses involved in tower transmission and link systems. Finally after tracking down an NBN contractor who would come and properly survey the place on my property where you can get signal, at my own cost of course, I was able to get the NBN to formally recognise the property was able to serviced with FW. I could then have the contractor install the antenna and p2p wifi to get the signal between front of property dwelling’s roof and main house. Whole process only took like an extra year after the service rollout on top.

Apols for the very off topic everyone!


----------



## woofer

OzHDHT said:


> *Apols *for the very off topic everyone!


From me also.... 😀


----------



## Surge2018

DVD MAN said:


> View attachment 3167137
> Hello Folks,
> 
> I am in a happy place with the Lumagen Pro and my JVC NX9 at the moment. However I do have a question. If the output of a source is set to 4:44 and the Lumagen does it’s processing at 4:22 what is the final bits of color going to the projector 8bit or 10bit?


Nothing is 4:4:4. If you have the choice between 4:2:0 and 4:4:4, select the later. Ideally, you have the option to select 4:2:2, which is the best option.


----------



## Killroy

woofer said:


> This was typical of the glorious NBN....


 1.52mbps download?!?! I would have committed Seppuku on the first day!


----------



## sjschaff

Surge2018 said:


> Nothing is 4:4:4. If you have the choice between 4:2:0 and 4:4:4, select the later. Ideally, you have the option to select 4:2:2, which is the best option.


Interesting that Zappiti makes the following recommendation: [Video] Best Video Settings – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions
I’ve used these without any issues. But maybe I’m missing some other settings.


----------



## Clark Burk

I would think the source direct option on the Zappiti would be the best when using the Lumagen.


----------



## sjschaff

Clark Burk said:


> I would think the source direct option on the Zappiti would be the best when using the Lumagen.


I agree. However, it would seem the settings described are separate and apart from source direct. Maybe someone could shed a bit of light on just each does and if one is mutually exclusive of the other.
Just checked on the Zappiti site and Direct Output affects video resolution and frequency, rather than color space.


----------



## Clark Burk

sjschaff said:


> I agree. However, it would seem the settings described are separate and apart from source direct. Maybe someone could shed a bit of light on just each does and if one is mutually exclusive of the other.
> Just checked on the Zappiti site and Direct Output affects video resolution and frequency, rather than color space.


So it’s not really a source direct then apparently. I wasn’t aware the color space was being expanded.


----------



## DVD MAN

When selecting 4:2:2 there’s is too much banding with the Zappiti. They are aware of this and recommends to set it to 4:4:4. So in this case the Lumagen will accept the 4:4:4 in 10bit and output the signaling 4:2:2 8 bit dithered. Since the dithering is excellent I should see no difference. Is this correct?


----------



## jrp

DVD MAN said:


> Great!
> Most of my components output in 4:2:2 So no problem there. However My Zappiti Pro has an issue with banding in 4:2:2
> when I set it to 4:4:4 the banding is eliminated. Will the Lumagen allow the 10 bits on the input side in 4:4:4?


If you have the Zappiti connected to an 18 GHz Radiance Pro input, it will accept "10-bit deep color 4:4:4" for 4k24 content. 

Note that for 4k60, the maximum the HDMI allows for 4:4:4 is 8-bits. This is an HDMI specification limitation and not specific to the Radiance Pro.


----------



## OzHDHT

DVD MAN said:


> When selecting 4:2:2 there’s is too much banding with the Zappiti. They are aware of this and recommends to set it to 4:4:4. So in this case the Lumagen will accept the 4:4:4 in 10bit and output the signaling 4:2:2 8 bit dithered. Since the dithering is excellent I should see no difference. Is this correct?


I've only had a current gen ATV 4K in my system since they came out, only used HTPC and Physical discs prior. I was watching The Green Knight on the weekend and it exhibited terrible banding in several graduated scenes. Could there be a similar scenario to the Zappiti occurring I'm wondering? I can't recall what the output setting is off the top of my head but will check it later on.


----------



## Kris Deering

I haven’t seen any banding issues with ATV unless it is in the source or a bandwidth issue. Color output doesn’t seem to change anything in that regard.


----------



## OzHDHT

Kris Deering said:


> I haven’t seen any banding issues with ATV unless it is in the source or a bandwidth issue. Color output doesn’t seem to change anything in that regard.


Ok thanks good to know Kris. I had a suspicion it was the quality of the 4K HDR encode as I hadn't seen a single issue in any other content to date with the ATV.


----------



## DVD MAN

jrp said:


> If you have the Zappiti connected to an 18 GHz Radiance Pro input, it will accept "10-bit deep color 4:4:4" for 4k24 content.
> 
> Note that for 4k60, the maximum the HDMI allows for 4:4:4 is 8-bits. This is an HDMI specification limitation and not specific to the Radiance Pro.


Ok Great Thank you.

So the 18 ghz Lumagen will accept the 4:4:4 in 10 bit. If it’s 4K60 will output 4:2:2 8bit dithered. If it’s for 4k24 movies it does get you 12-bits for Y, Cb, and C. Correct?


----------



## bjorg

What is the best available color probe for emissive displays? I'm thinking of getting one to perfect the individual cells on my wall. They are pretty close to perfect, but I'm curious what it would take to get them to next level. Then again, it would require calibrating 660 cells. I may or may not have the patience for that...


----------



## MDesigns

bjorg said:


> What is the best available color probe for emissive displays? I'm thinking of getting one to perfect the individual cells on my wall. They are pretty close to perfect, but I'm curious what it would take to get them to next level. Then again, it would require calibrating 660 cells. I may or may not have the patience for that...


I guess that is the weakness of the multicell technology. It would drive me mad to have color differences in different parts of a display, even on a cheaper unit not even considering the price of the display you have. Hope you get it fully calibrated.


----------



## MOberhardt

OzHDHT said:


> I've only had a current gen ATV 4K in my system since they came out, only used HTPC and Physical discs prior. I was watching The Green Knight on the weekend and it exhibited terrible banding in several graduated scenes. Could there be a similar scenario to the Zappiti occurring I'm wondering? I can't recall what the output setting is off the top of my head but will check it later on.


One other factor on banding I found was having default video settings. Mine reset for some reason, and I was watching the 4k Underwater and it was just horrific. Lot of dark black level scenes in it. I checked settings and all the good settings like Match Frame Rate and Match Dynamic Range had switched back to the bad defaults. Once I changed it, banding was gone.
was gone.


----------



## Clark Burk

MOberhardt said:


> One other factor on banding I found was having default video settings. Mine reset for some reason, and I was watching the 4k Underwater and it was just horrific. Lot of dark black level scenes in it. I checked settings and all the good settings like Match Frame Rate and Match Dynamic Range had switched back to the bad defaults. Once I changed it, banding was gone.
> was gone.


I’ve noticed that myself. Perhaps some of the firmware updates reset some of the settings so I guess it would be good to check when things start looking wrong.


----------



## Die Zwei

Clark Burk said:


> I’ve noticed that myself. Perhaps some of the firmware updates reset some of the settings so I guess it would be good to check when things start looking wrong.


Yep, firmware updates change these settings back to default. But i also had the impression that these settings were reset without a firmware update happened before.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> If you have the Zappiti connected to an 18 GHz Radiance Pro input, it will accept "10-bit deep color 4:4:4" for 4k24 content.
> 
> Note that for 4k60, the maximum the HDMI allows for 4:4:4 is 8-bits. This is an HDMI specification limitation and not specific to the Radiance Pro.


I received a reply from Zappiti support when I asked:


> I'm a bit confused on settings. I am using the Zappiti with a Lumagen Radiance Pro. So, I did set for Direct Output. What I'm uncertain about is whether I should be using 4:2:2 versus 4:4:4 color space as well as color depth (10 bit vs 12 bit). Can you suggest proper settings or what questions I would need to ask of Lumagen. I'm playing back everything from old tape transfers to UHD HDR 4k source through the Zappiti.


As follows:

Not possible right now as the chipset does not output correct 422 signal. But it will be possible with the new chipset.

And, as far as I have heard, the new chipsets will be in upcoming product, by years end. Assuming no unusual glitches between now and then.


----------



## thebland

*A little known cool Lumagen feature. Messaging to the screen.* 

I have this set up through my Crestron controller so that when the doorbell rings, I get a message that someone is at the door. No way to hear doorbell from my theater. Pretty cool! My Lutron lighting can flash when the doorbell rings but I found that more distracting... Thanks Adam Pelz for the programming..


----------



## bjorg

MDesigns said:


> I guess that is the weakness of the multicell technology. It would drive me mad to have color differences in different parts of a display, even on a cheaper unit not even considering the price of the display you have. Hope you get it fully calibrated.


It's not a weakness. It's a strength! Uniformity issues exist at any scale, on any device. At least I can smooth them out. It's already at the point where you can't tell where one panel ends and the next one begins, unless you're _really_ looking for it, like I am.


----------



## Die Zwei

thebland said:


> I have this set up through my Crestron controller so that when the doorbell rings, I get a message that someone is at the door. No way to hear doorbell from my theater. Pretty cool!


Even cooler getting the image of the door camera onto the remote´s display when the doorbell rings.


----------



## Rob Dingen

Hi,

I use the latest Colorspace software to do a Lut calibration.
In color space I select the proper CMS slot and upload the Lut.
Is this the best possible way to upload Lut's?
Because I'm thinking colors change the next time starting a movie.

Rob


----------



## thebland

Die Zwei said:


> Even cooler getting the image of the door camera onto the remote display when the doorbell rings.


I can do that as well as my whole house video sources (including cameras) are all on Crestron NVX video distribution. But that's distracting as the camera images are typically bright and takes you out of the movie. The Lumagen message is subtle but effective. If I want to access my cameras, I just change the source with the remote. All good!!


----------



## Die Zwei

thebland said:


> But that's distracting as the camera images are typically bright and takes you out of the movie. The Lumagen message is subtle but effective.


Sure, i´d combine the two features. But enough OT.


----------



## Erod

thebland said:


> *A little known cool Lumagen feature. Messaging to the screen.*
> 
> I have this set up through my Crestron controller so that when the doorbell rings, I get a message that someone is at the door. No way to hear doorbell from my theater. Pretty cool! My Lutron lighting can flash when the doorbell rings but I found that more distracting... Thanks Adam Pelz for the programming..


Pretty cool, but I do not answer my door when I'm in the theater room for anything. LOL


----------



## ccool96

thebland said:


> *A little known cool Lumagen feature. Messaging to the screen.*
> 
> I have this set up through my Crestron controller so that when the doorbell rings, I get a message that someone is at the door. No way to hear doorbell from my theater. Pretty cool! My Lutron lighting can flash when the doorbell rings but I found that more distracting... Thanks Adam Pelz for the programming..



I am using the same Lumagen feature to display the Trinnov volume on-screen anytime I adjust the volume. 

The Lumagen in conjunction with my C4 system automatically adjusts my 14’ wide x 7’ high 4-way masking screen based on the aspect of what’s playing. It automatically adjusts the laser power on my projector based on if the source content is SDR or HDR. Etc. 

I originally bought the Lumagen for the dynamic tone mapping. And while that is still its greatest feature, the Lumagen offers so much more than that.


----------



## bobof

You can customise the colours to make the display much nicer and a bit more subtle. See this example here:





It looks like the control4 example is writing out a whole string of the maximum permissible area - I think it is nicer if you just write out a string of the required length, which then centres the string within the display, instead of leaving a load of "blank" box.


----------



## ccool96

bobof said:


> You can customise the colours to make the display much nicer and a bit more subtle. See this example here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the control4 example is writing out a whole string of the maximum permissible area - I think it is nicer if you just write out a string of the required length, which then centres the string within the display, instead of leaving a load of "blank" box.


Yes you can customize the colors now with C4. 

Personally I like the larger area as I find it easier to see than just a couple numbers. 

But i have had it this way for about a year and a half. It’s likely more changes have been made on the size and format of the layout. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## OzHDHT

MOberhardt said:


> One other factor on banding I found was having default video settings. Mine reset for some reason, and I was watching the 4k Underwater and it was just horrific. Lot of dark black level scenes in it. I checked settings and all the good settings like Match Frame Rate and Match Dynamic Range had switched back to the bad defaults. Once I changed it, banding was gone.
> was gone.


This banding didn't happen in Suicide Squad that I watched the next night, that's why I'm pointing the finger at the encode. I've seen that happen too with the settings reverting on occasion and with the projector there's usually some kind of tell, like a playback goes black in a certain mode or you see the frame rate's off.


----------



## CP850-CLED

Die Zwei said:


> Sure, i´d combine the two features. But enough OT.


One more OT. How I do it.


----------



## thebland

Die Zwei said:


> Sure, i´d combine the two features. But enough OT.





CP850-CLED said:


> One more OT. How I do it.


I keep getting 'one-upped'! NIce!!


----------



## clausdk

Suggestions on handling subtitles on streaming services?

Have a scope screen and often subs are outside the content and scope screen.


----------



## bjorg

Just posting this one last time since I didn't get any recommendations: What is the best available color probe for emissive displays?


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Just posting this one last time since I didn't get any recommendations: What is the best available color probe for emissive displays?


"Best" is loose at best . At the high end, to accurately set up a colormeter - which is nice and fast - you want a slower high end spectroradiometer (maybe a Jeti 1501 or a Colorimetry research CR250). A high end colorimeter to go with that would be a Klein K10A or a Colorimetry Research CR100. You can also get pretty good results with an XRite i1Pro2/3 spectro and an I1display3 colorimeter.. Some people combine the expensive spectroradiometer with the cheaper colorimeter, which can be very effective too. The I1display3 is particularly good value for money for what it is, but it's probably not "the best".


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> "Best" is loose at best . At the high end, to accurately set up a colormeter - which is nice and fast - you want a slower high end spectroradiometer (maybe a Jeti 1501 or a Colorimetry research CR250). A high end colorimeter to go with that would be a Klein K10A or a Colorimetry Research CR100. You can also get pretty good results with an XRite i1Pro2/3 spectro and an I1display3 colorimeter.. Some people combine the expensive spectroradiometer with the cheaper colorimeter, which can be very effective too. The I1display3 is particularly good value for money for what it is, but it's probably not "the best".


Thank you for the recommendations! I was looking at CA-410 Display Color Analyzer, which I've seen used for this application before. Do you know how it compares to the models you mentioned? Accuracy is the critical feature, not speed.


----------



## MOberhardt

clausdk said:


> Suggestions on handling subtitles on streaming services?
> 
> Have a scope screen and often subs are outside the content and scope screen.


Another reason physical media trumps all...


----------



## Kris Deering

clausdk said:


> Suggestions on handling subtitles on streaming services?
> 
> Have a scope screen and often subs are outside the content and scope screen.


I would manually set the aspect ratio to a slightly narrower aspect to preserver width and still show the subtitles. So if the movie is 2.4, I would try an aspect of 2.2.


----------



## PeterLarsson

Kris Deering said:


> I would manually set the aspect ratio to a slightly narrower aspect to preserver width and still show the subtitles. So if the movie is 2.4, I would try an aspect of 2.2.


And I have cropped a few lines at the bottom to enable for example netflix subtitle, and just press a memory once that happen. Very smooth


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Thank you for the recommendations! I was looking at CA-410 Display Color Analyzer, which I've seen used for this application before. Do you know how it compares to the models you mentioned? Accuracy is the critical feature, not speed.


Are you not 3DLUT calibrating then? For 3DLUT on emissive displays you do want a good turn of speed as the displays can drift during use. It's particularly an issue with OLED but might be with videowall (I don't know).

I'm sure the Minolta is good, though I think it is a colorimeter and not a spectro, so you need to make sure it has a correction matrix for your particular display technology.

The Minolta units have less support with calibration software, so you may want to double check the exact model is supported by the software you want to use.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> Are you not 3DLUT calibrating then? For 3DLUT on emissive displays you do want a good turn of speed as the displays can drift during use. It's particularly an issue with OLED but might be with videowall (I don't know).
> 
> I'm sure the Minolta is good, though I think it is a colorimeter and not a spectro, so you need to make sure it has a correction matrix for your particular display technology.
> 
> The Minolta units have less support with calibration software, so you may want to double check the exact model is supported by the software you want to use.


I'm just getting me ears wet on this. So most of my questions are probably just going to show my utter ignorance on the topic. 🤓 

The Sony C-LED allows color calibration per cell. This is done directly with the display controller and without the Lumagen in the path. Once I have the display dialed in so that all cells maximize their color spectrum and look uniform across it, I will then calibrate the color balance via the Lumagen to match the intended purpose of movie reproduction.

Not sure this is the right approach, but it sounds reasonable on paper.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I'm just getting me ears wet on this. So most of my questions are probably just going to show my utter ignorance on the topic. 🤓
> 
> The Sony C-LED allows color calibration per cell. This is done directly with the display controller and without the Lumagen in the path. Once I have the display dialed in so that all cells maximize their color spectrum and look uniform across it, I will then calibrate the color balance via the Lumagen to match the intended purpose of movie reproduction.
> 
> Not sure this is the right approach, but it sounds reasonable on paper.


I would assume the calibration of the cells is done with some Sony specific software, so I think you should be taking advice from Sony as to what gear is recommended - have you spoken with them on the subject? Hopefully that gear can then be used for overall calibration of the display as a whole.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> I would assume the calibration of the cells is done with some Sony specific software, so I think you should be taking advice from Sony as to what gear is recommended - have you spoken with them on the subject? Hopefully that gear can then be used for overall calibration of the display as a whole.


I know what gear and software they use. Sony has been really easy to work with on this project. I'm hoping to go beyond what they do today by tapping into wisdom of crowds found in these forums!


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> I would manually set the aspect ratio to a slightly narrower aspect to preserver width and still show the subtitles. So if the movie is 2.4, I would try an aspect of 2.2.


Is it possible to set those "custom" aspect ratios (2.20, etc) in a preset so you can call them up with a simple remote or code press? Would love to have presets for 2.00, 2.1, 2.2, etc.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I know what gear and software they use. Sony has been really easy to work with on this project. I'm hoping to go beyond what they do today by tapping into wisdom of crowds found in these forums!


I'd expect someone at Sony should be able to tell you if the Minolta you mention is a good match for the emitted spectrum of the Sony panels, and then check it is supported by the SW you'd choose to use on the Lumagen. For what it's worth I'm of the opinion that Colourspace will usually generate the best 3DLUTs for use with the Lumagen units. I understand the Minolta you mention works in Colourspace HT*P *level license and above. @ConnecTEDDD (member on here) can hook you up with the right Colourspace license if you don't already have it. (PM link: AVS Forum )


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

bjorg said:


> I know what gear and software they use. Sony has been really easy to work with on this project. I'm hoping to go beyond what they do today by tapping into wisdom of crowds found in these forums!


Hi,

ColourSpace HTP is supporting Minotla colorimeters.

These meters are excellent when manufacturing a display, but they are not flexible as field meters for calibration.

They are industry standard meters for production or calibration at the factory of the panels.

However, you can't measure any projector with Minolta, they are not colorimeters to measure a projector screen.



https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/wp-content/uploads/ca410_catalog_eng.pdf



The Long-distance model has an accuracy guaranteed measurement distance of 20cm.

When you are calibrating a projector, you will aim the meter towards to the screen from at least 2m meter distance.

So it's not recommended meter for projectors.

You can see at my post here, how to aim the meter for measurements of projectors.

The best colorimeter for dynamic range (0.00006 up to 10000 nits), laser aiming, to see with a virtual circle of dots the field of view of the meter optics, and the king of speed, its the fastest colorimeter in the market, its the Klein K-10A.

Its industry-standard meter for field calibration.

Any colorimeter as a standalone unit is lucking color accuracy.

It will require to profile it using a consumer (X-Rite i1PRO3) or a high-end (and the best option) JETI 1501.

JETI also has internal Bluetooth and an internal battery so it can work wireless. It has laser aiming also.

Below you see both meter lasers:










Since projector tech tent to be based on laser-source, regular JETI 1501 (4.5nm) or i1PRO3 (10nm) are not going to give you the most accurate reading.

JETI has 1501 HiRes model (small price difference compared to regular 1501) with 2nm optical resolution.

See, for example, the SPD of JVC laser Z1:











Epson EH-LS10000











These two laser projectors and generally any laser, it will need 2nm Spectro, ideally.

It's not that you can't measure with a lower resolution of spectro, just without spectro, just a good or the best) colorimeter is not enough.

At the price range of Minolta, it will have lower cost to get Klein K-10A + JETI 1501 HiRes.

Any exotic display-type and upcoming display tech will benefit from 2nm spectro, because when color gamut tent to go closer to REC2020 edge, the more narrow will be the spectral response.


----------



## bjorg

ConnecTEDDD said:


> However, you can't measure any projector with Minolta, they are not colorimeters to measure a projector screen.


I'm calibrating an LED wall. What would you recommend for that?


----------



## ConnecTEDDD

bjorg said:


> I'm calibrating an LED wall. What would you recommend for that?


Klein K-10A + JETI 1501 HiRes will cover any display/projector of current or future display tech.

Klein can measure up to 10000 nits, JETI up to 140000 nits.

I believe you will have to start calibration one by one the panels individually, to fix uniformity issues and then use Lumagen PRO to generate LUT's to correct them globally.

Sony may have specific software for that job. It will support Klein for sure. But take a look if you have the instructions.


----------



## Nima

I want to sync A/V and I own a Trinnov and Lumagen. HDMI goes to the Lumagen and then (audio out) to the Trinnov. The Trinnov is reporting 61ms latency in its master menu.

Since I read that the Lumagen with "Genlock On" has a latency of around 24ms, I add 33ms in the A/V delay menu of the lumagen to reach almost perfect sync.

Is my thinking correct?


----------



## Kris Deering

Killroy said:


> Is it possible to set those "custom" aspect ratios (2.20, etc) in a preset so you can call them up with a simple remote or code press? Would love to have presets for 2.00, 2.1, 2.2, etc.


Lots of different ways to do it instantly. The new remote has direct access to all, memories or other tweaks. When I build a configuration for the client I set up some easy access tools that allow for instant use of any aspect.


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> Lots of different ways to do it instantly. The new remote has direct access to all, memories or other tweaks. When I build a configuration for the client I set up some easy access tools that allow for instant use of any aspect.


Funny you should mention the new remote…When I saw a picture of it I wondered about the new buttons and how long before documentation comes out with the new IR codes. That alone would make me buy one of the new ones.


----------



## Venue

Isn't the new automatic aspect ratio feature throwing away some quite hefty brightness output considered it's electronic/digital?

Isn't it better to have the projector lens automatically zoomed in/out depending on the signal, and in use with an Oppo 203/205 of course, to push disc menus back into your scope screen without having to turn to pillarboxing, basically applying a 1/4 zoom, which the Oppo also does...

I would instead like to see JVC projectors auto-detect letter/pillarboxing, or even windowboxing, taking into account 3840 vs. 4096px of the native chips, we really don't need a Lumagen to do this, sorry to break the news.

Am I alone to think like this?

I don't think @jrp can push menus into the scope container because he's not a player, he's a processor, is that not right?


----------



## Die Zwei

Venue said:


> Isn't the new automatic aspect ratio feature throwing away some quite hefty brightness output considered it's electronic/digital?
> 
> Isn't it better to have the projector lens automatically zoomed in/out depending on the signal, and in use with an Oppo 203/205 of course, to push disc menus back into your scope screen without having to turn to pillarboxing, basically applying a 1/4 zoom, which the Oppo also does...
> 
> I would instead like to see JVC projectors auto-detect letter/pillarboxing, or even windowboxing, taking into account 3840 vs. 4096px of the native chips, we really don't need a Lumagen to do this, sorry to break the news.
> 
> Am I alone to think like this?


Optical zoom on projectors are not 100% accurate, so you might end up adjusting them regularly.
Regarding brightness: i doubt you notice a significant difference.
Regarding 3840 vs. 4096: all 4K content is 3840, so projecting with 4096 needs processing on the image which doesn´t neccessarily improve the image.
Regarding disc menus etc.: using the player for that, you create a dependancy to the player - it needs to be capable of zooming. Of course, the Oppo can do that, but not all the others. For me, that´s the perfect job for a video processor.

After all, it all comes down to convenience vs. perfectionism. I´d always opt for the video processor do the job.


----------



## Nima

I re-read this thread and adjusted the AV Sync accordingly. I should now have 60ms delayed video, correct?


----------



## Venue

Die Zwei said:


> After all, it all comes down to convenience vs. perfectionism. I´d always opt for the video processor do the job.


I call using the Oppo convenience, keeping the essential features, saving the big bucks, better spend it on what actually makes a difference, a new brighter projector?


----------



## Die Zwei

Venue said:


> I call using the Oppo convenience, keeping the essential features, saving the big bucks, better spend it on what actually makes a difference, a new brighter projector?


Well, in addition to the aspects i mentioned above, the Oppo is out of production.
However, if you´re happy with your own setup, i´m not trying to change that.


----------



## Kris Deering

Venue said:


> Isn't the new automatic aspect ratio feature throwing away some quite hefty brightness output considered it's electronic/digital?
> 
> Isn't it better to have the projector lens automatically zoomed in/out depending on the signal, and in use with an Oppo 203/205 of course, to push disc menus back into your scope screen without having to turn to pillarboxing, basically applying a 1/4 zoom, which the Oppo also does...
> 
> I would instead like to see JVC projectors auto-detect letter/pillarboxing, or even windowboxing, taking into account 3840 vs. 4096px of the native chips, we really don't need a Lumagen to do this, sorry to break the news.
> 
> Am I alone to think like this?
> 
> I don't think @jrp can push menus into the scope container because he's not a player, he's a processor, is that not right?


There are a couple ways to look at this. You can use the zoom features of the projector. This will eliminate scaling but you have the inconvenience of waiting for the lens memory to change, hoping that it will actually stop where it should and now you have a completely different light output for each and every aspect you go to. This is less than ideal from a calibration standpoint as the image should have the same properties regardless of aspect. 

By using the AA feature, you maintain the same calibration across all aspects, you have instant access to ANY aspect ratio without having to wait on any lens memory and you have automatic full masking for the image outside the selected aspect ratio. The con is that you are scaling, but the Lumagen scaling is excellent and artifacts are EXTREMELY rare. 

It would be great if all devices allowed for subtitle placement like the Oppo or my Kaleidescape, but that isn't an issue of the Lumagen or the display device because those are player generated. 

This is also just one feature of a Lumagen processor on top of a long list of other features that will DEFINITELY improve the performance of a JVC projector. But it is definitely one of the most popular features for a large majority of my clients. I've yet to have a single client that prefers using the projector lens memories over this feature once they've experienced it and spent time watching video.


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> I re-read this thread and adjusted the AV Sync accordingly. I should now have 60ms delayed video, correct?
> 
> View attachment 3168674


You shouldn't have to do any video delay for a Lumagen/Trinnov combination. I have a NX9/Lumagen/Trinnov and have zero video delay and zero issues with AV synch. If you want to set it perfectly, buy a Synch-One2 and the Spears and Munsil test disc. You can try and do it visually as well using the test pattern on the disc.


----------



## bobof

Venue said:


> Isn't the new automatic aspect ratio feature throwing away some quite hefty brightness output considered it's electronic/digital?


I think this aspect in particular is a non-issue. If at the zoom level you choose for your primary aspect with a scope screen you have enough brightness and contrast, then by definition you have enough brightness and contrast if you just mask off the extra pixels for 16:9 viewing. Zooming doesn't really add anything, and just gives the "benefit" of the mechanical uncertainty of the mech.



Venue said:


> I would instead like to see JVC projectors auto-detect letter/pillarboxing, or even windowboxing, taking into account 3840 vs. 4096px of the native chips, we really don't need a Lumagen to do this, sorry to break the news.
> 
> Am I alone to think like this?


Most features >could< be implemented into a projector that has a large FPGA (like the current JVC units). But until they actually do it, sorry to break the news, this is a pointless bit of "what if'ism". They'd need to decide to want to implement it, and then actually implement it to at least the quality of the Radiance (which they've not managed with tone mapping). I can't see that ever happening for many of the aspect-related features I enjoy using on my Radiance. . But please do lobby JVC to add such features, it is always good to have other options.


----------



## Die Zwei

Nima said:


> I want to sync A/V and I own a Trinnov and Lumagen. HDMI goes to the Lumagen and then (audio out) to the Trinnov. The Trinnov is reporting 61ms latency in its master menu.
> 
> Since I read that the Lumagen with "Genlock On" has a latency of around 24ms, I add 33ms in the A/V delay menu of the lumagen to reach almost perfect sync.
> 
> Is my thinking correct?


The projector in itself also adds a delay (more or less, depending on features like frame interpolation switched on or off).
As Kris already mentioned, you usually don´t have to adjust in the Trinnov.


----------



## Karl Maga

Kris Deering said:


> There are a couple ways to look at this. You can use the zoom features of the projector. This will eliminate scaling but you have the inconvenience of waiting for the lens memory to change, hoping that it will actually stop where it should and now you have a completely different light output for each and every aspect you go to. This is less than ideal from a calibration standpoint as the image should have the same properties regardless of aspect.
> 
> By using the AA feature, you maintain the same calibration across all aspects, you have instant access to ANY aspect ratio without having to wait on any lens memory and you have automatic full masking for the image outside the selected aspect ratio. The con is that you are scaling, but the Lumagen scaling is excellent and artifacts are EXTREMELY rare.
> 
> It would be great if all devices allowed for subtitle placement like the Oppo or my Kaleidescape, but that isn't an issue of the Lumagen or the display device because those are player generated.
> 
> This is also just one feature of a Lumagen processor on top of a long list of other features that will DEFINITELY improve the performance of a JVC projector. But it is definitely one of the most popular features for a large majority of my clients. I've yet to have a single client that prefers using the projector lens memories over this feature once they've experienced it and spent time watching video.


AA is among my favorite features of my Radiance Pro. In addition to the various improvements it brings to images from all of my sources, it takes the most annoying behavours of my JVC NX7 and eliminates them.


----------



## Venue

To all you guys, sure AA is more convenient than lens zooming, but at what price?!
If each and everyone of us pointed our fingers at JVC, they'll have a similar feature within 2 years.
Their tone mapping is getting better and better, is it like a Lumagen? Probably not, could it be? Probably so.
If all Lumagen consumers instead threw their money at JVC, JVC would be at first stop, and this industry would take off immensly.

My fiver, ya'll, there is nothing wrong with our sources, i.e. the UHD discs, there is a problem with our projectors.
Fix that, don't implement the unneccesary device C, A and B is sufficient, if you want it today, just use madVR, but it will come.


----------



## Nima

Kris Deering said:


> You shouldn't have to do any video delay for a Lumagen/Trinnov combination. I have a NX9/Lumagen/Trinnov and have zero video delay and zero issues with AV synch. If you want to set it perfectly, buy a Synch-One2 and the Spears and Munsil test disc. You can try and do it visually as well using the test pattern on the disc.


 Kris, thank you for your response.

The Trinnov is reporting a 61ms of delay @24FPS. So no video delay adjustment to match that? Shall I turn the Edid delay reporting off as well (the 44ms)?

TIA
Nima


----------



## bobof

Venue said:


> To all you guys, sure AA is more convenient than lens zooming, but at what price?!
> If each and everyone of us pointed our fingers at JVC, they'll have a similar feature within 2 years.
> Their tone mapping is getting better and better, is it like a Lumagen? Probably not, could it be? Probably so.
> If all Lumagen consumers instead threw their money at JVC, JVC would be at first stop, and this industry would take off immensly.
> 
> My fiver, ya'll, there is nothing wrong with our sources, i.e. the UHD discs, there is a problem with our projectors.
> Fix that, don't implement the unneccesary device C, A and B is sufficient, if you want it today, just use madVR, but it will come.


None of my video sources are a Windows computer, so madVR is a non-starter at the moment, and I am sure a high proportion of Lumagen owners are already threw a ton of money at JVC for their projectors... . There is a new model coming imminently, let's see how many of these features make it in (I'm guessing... not many).

It's hard not to view your post as more than a little trolling... The place to ask JVC for features they don't have, would be in the JVC threads where they're more likely to notice  

Until such a time as the features I want all appear in the display, "unnecessary device C" is here to stay. As time has gone by in the last 6 years I've been using video processors, there are more, not less, features I've been using in them, so it doesn't seem to be a trend that is currently going the way of ousting my Radiance from my system...


----------



## Venue

bobof said:


> There is a new model coming imminently, let's see how many of these features make it in (I'm guessing... not many).
> 
> It's hard not to view your post as more than a little trolling...


Trolling, the hell, I'm flat dead serious, I would not be posting otherwise.

Make it in? Well, have you been complaining or submitting the feedback?


----------



## Karl Maga

Venue said:


> Trolling, the hell, I'm flat dead serious, I would not be posting otherwise.
> 
> Make it in? Well, have you been complaining or submitting the feedback?


Ok then, serioulsy trolling. Trolling is trolling.

madVR is not a viable alternative to a Radiance Pro. It's not even a viable alternative to madVR Envy. Just doesn't support the use cases.

You've made the mistake of assuming you know the value of money to Lumagen product owners. From what I've seen of your posts, you have no clue. Nor should you be expected to. But it's certainly in bad taste to assume you do.


----------



## Clark Burk

Venue said:


> To all you guys, sure AA is more convenient than lens zooming, but at what price?!
> If each and everyone of us pointed our fingers at JVC, they'll have a similar feature within 2 years.
> Their tone mapping is getting better and better, is it like a Lumagen? Probably not, could it be? Probably so.
> If all Lumagen consumers instead threw their money at JVC, JVC would be at first stop, and this industry would take off immensly.
> 
> My fiver, ya'll, there is nothing wrong with our sources, i.e. the UHD discs, there is a problem with our projectors.
> Fix that, don't implement the unneccesary device C, A and B is sufficient, if you want it today, just use madVR, but it will come.


I can see your wish to have JVC be an end game solution and honestly that’s up to them. They may get there someday or perhaps the industry will start to move in a different direction.
I think you are missing the big picture. Consumers vote or show their desire for goods by spending money on them. If a company provides what the consumer wants it is rewarded with sales. If JVC makes an awesome projector and that is what buyers want then the sales will increase.
For me Lumagen is a company that provides several features at a level unavailable in other products. Not only that but I have rarely seen a company with better customer service.
You are saying throw our dollars at JVC and they will give us what we want. I say JVC provide what we want and we will reward you with our dollars. Two different mindsets.
For now Lumagen is tops in customer service, and provides a product that is exemplary in what it does. As long as Jim is running the show I think that has a very good chance of continuing.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> I want to sync A/V and I own a Trinnov and Lumagen. HDMI goes to the Lumagen and then (audio out) to the Trinnov. The Trinnov is reporting 61ms latency in its master menu.
> 
> Since I read that the Lumagen with "Genlock On" has a latency of around 24ms, I add 33ms in the A/V delay menu of the lumagen to reach almost perfect sync.
> 
> Is my thinking correct?


With Genlock on, the Pro latency (when _not_ in game mode) is one frame time, plus about 4 mS. This totals 46 mS for 24 Hertz, 21 mS for 60 Hertz, and 24 mS at 50 Hertz input. 

I was having trouble getting lipsync perfect with a 24 Hertz music video with Genlock off. So I turned Genlock on. With Genlock on, the Lumagen Demo Theater JVC RS4500 set to Low Latency, and the Altitude16 reporting a delay of 68 mS (include acoustic delay from speakers), I found that adding 36 mS using the Trinnov menu was essentially perfect (for me at least).

I am not super sensitive to lip-sync, but when I was trying to notice the lip-sync I found it interesting that I could tell that 32 mS was not enough, and 42 mS was a bit too much. However, I believe that had I not been trying so hard, anything in the 32 to 42 mS would have been acceptable, and the range of acceptable could well be larger.

Some comments:

- At 24 Hertz the 0 to 42 mS variance in non-Genlock mode affects lip-sync enough for me to notice. This is caused by the input an output not being "locked." At 60 Hertz, the 0 to 16.7 mS variance it not as significant, and might not be noticeable. So, if your projector/TV can tolerate the slightly higher jitter with "normal" Genlock on (should be pretty much everything), for best lip-sync, I recommend you consider setting Genlock to 24p Normal (so off at 60 Hertz). This increases switching time for 24 Hertz. So, you can consider a non-Genlock input memory (say MEMA), and then a Genlock input memory (say MEMB). Use MEMA for non-critical viewing. Once you start a critical movie or music video, pause, select MEMB, then once you get picture back hit play.

- Do not use Genlock "Fast" mode. It remains in the menu only for the case where someone selected it at some point.

- The Trinnov Altitude is nice in that it has the same audio delay for all content types. This makes setting Lip-sync much easier than if the delay varied with content type. You need to check if your audio processor has the same delay for different content types or not.

- With the Trinnov Altitude 16, I found using the lip-sync pattern on the Spears and Munsil disc, gave me the same result as content played on the Strato (piano key strike, guitar/harp string pluck, drum beat, lips, etc). This is nice to know since the test pattern is easier to dial in.

- While sources are all supposed to match the audio and video, I hear some sources, and even different providers on the same source device, have different lip-sync timing. You can set the lip-sync on a per-input and per-input-memory basis. This should help mitigate issues between different sources and different providers.


----------



## Clark Burk

Venue, just curious when did you last see JVC come on a forum and give a response, tip, or any other answer to anything?? Just making note I totally enjoy my JVC projector but I love my Lumagen.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> I re-read this thread and adjusted the AV Sync accordingly. I should now have 60ms delayed video, correct?
> 
> View attachment 3168674


Unfortunately the devices we have seen to not correctly deal with the HDMI EDID lip-sync info. IMO it is best to not use the delay reporting and only use the programmable extra video delay in the Radiance Pro, in conjunction with the audio delay in the audio processor to fine tune. You do this by adding more video delay than is needed so you need a >0 audio delay in the audio processor, which can generally be set in mS.

====== 

That said, if you wanted a source to add additional video delay, and it was correctly dealing with the HDMI delay reporting (unlikely based on our testing), then you would report additional audio delay so the source would delay video to compensate.


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> The projector in itself also adds a delay (more or less, depending on features like frame interpolation switched on or off).
> As Kris already mentioned, you usually don´t have to adjust in the Trinnov.


I had to adjust my AV synch in the Trinnov. I just didn't have to do any adjustment in the Radiance to video delay.


----------



## Kris Deering

Venue said:


> To all you guys, sure AA is more convenient than lens zooming, but at what price?!
> If each and everyone of us pointed our fingers at JVC, they'll have a similar feature within 2 years.
> Their tone mapping is getting better and better, is it like a Lumagen? Probably not, could it be? Probably so.
> If all Lumagen consumers instead threw their money at JVC, JVC would be at first stop, and this industry would take off immensly.
> 
> My fiver, ya'll, there is nothing wrong with our sources, i.e. the UHD discs, there is a problem with our projectors.
> Fix that, don't implement the unneccesary device C, A and B is sufficient, if you want it today, just use madVR, but it will come.


This post makes almost zero sense to me. Displays will ALWAYS inherently have different issues that an outboard video processor will do better at. It is the same in the audio world. A large amount of the people posting here already have JVC projectors and throw their money at them, that doesn't mean JVC will automatically add all the features of an outboard processor. That is ridiculous. People have been buying projectors for years, and they've advanced in technology for years, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden they are going to have the level of video processing of something like a Lumagen. 

There is plenty wrong with sources (UHD disc/streaming/etc) that could make video better. There is stuff wrong with every projector that could be better. That is just the reality of consumer products. Also, lots of gall to come into the Lumagen thread and say we shouldn't need a device like this but if you do, just get MadVR. This also from a guy that has obviously had zero experience with the product he is now coming in to bad mount. Yikes.


----------



## Kris Deering

Venue said:


> Trolling, the hell, I'm flat dead serious, I would not be posting otherwise.
> 
> Make it in? Well, have you been complaining or submitting the feedback?


Your post looks like heavy trolling and even heavier lack of knowledge or experience.


----------



## asherman8

Has anyone experienced recent trouble with the recommended Control4 driver? Mine was working perfectly and I have suddenly lost any ability of Control4 remotes/App to control my Lumagen RP. Curious if it’s just something that happened in my setup. 
Thanks!


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Ok, Radiance Pro inbound tomorrow for feeding my LS10500. I did a little previewing of the manual (RTFM in advance) but theres a lot to absorb. I/m thinking it makes sense to put the RP between my HTP-1 and projector. I have 3 UHD sources and 3 SD/HD sources. I'm thinking I should run two HDMI connections from HTP-1 to RP, with input 1 setup for UHD and tonemapping and input 2 setup for SD/HD scaling. I'm currently using an HDFury DIVA to provide a custom DV profile. I undestand that keeping this in the loop may cause handshakes errors. What, if anything do I gain/lose by keeping an LLDV profile in the chain? Clearly, my projector needs dynamic tonemapping. Projector was calibrated with inbuilt CMS by Kris last summer for rec2020 and rec709 colorspaces so the grayscale is as the Lumagen expects within calibration error. It appears that I may have to use this setup for quite awhile until I can get a 3DLUT done for the Lumagen/projector combo. I'm sure I am missing things to ask about initial setup. I will need to wipe the current setting, as this pre-owned unit fed an NX7.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> I was having trouble getting lipsync perfect with a 24 Hertz music video with Genlock off. So I turned Genlock on. With Genlock on, the Lumagen Demo Theater JVC RS4500 set to Low Latency, and the Altitude16 reporting a delay of 68 mS (include acoustic delay from speakers), I found that adding 36 mS using the Trinnov menu was essentially perfect (for me at least).
> 
> - At 24 Hertz the 0 to 42 mS variance in non-Genlock mode affects lip-sync enough for me to notice. *This is caused by the input an output not being "locked."* At 60 Hertz, the 0 to 16.7 mS variance it not as significant, and might not be noticeable.


I have known that the input and output are not locked in non-genlock mode, but are the audio and video also not locked together even if you route both through the radiance? That would mean those are almost constantly out of sync in non-genlock mode.


----------



## bjorg

asherman8 said:


> Has anyone experienced recent trouble with the recommended Control4 driver? Mine was working perfectly and I have suddenly lost any ability of Control4 remotes/App to control my Lumagen RP. Curious if it’s just something that happened in my setup.
> Thanks!


I experience something similar every once in a while. I've noticed that it has occurred at least twice when there was a power failure in my building. Try unplugging the control unit (e.g. EA-3) for a minute and then plug it back in. In short, the good, old "did you try turning it off and on again". 😁


----------



## Des511

Curious question. Has anybody used the Pro model with a laserdisc player?


----------



## SJHT

Des511 said:


> Curious question. Has anybody used the Pro model with a laserdisc player?


There are only HDMI inputs….


----------



## Des511

SJHT said:


> There are only HDMI inputs….


I’m aware of that but was just wondering if someone still is an old romantic and has a laserdisc player in their rack. Thinking about what exact converter they use to connect the player to their av receiver or Lumagen and what settings on the Lumagen could be used.


----------



## docrog

Des511 said:


> I’m aware of that but was just wondering if someone still is an old romantic and has a laserdisc player in their rack. Thinking about what exact converter they use to connect the player to their av receiver or Lumagen and what settings on the Lumagen could be used.


A way to accomplish this would be using the configuration: Radiance after Receiver. You could then connect your LD player to the receiver (via component or S-Video connections) which would then be able to feed the RP at native rate; it's hard to imagine that the RP could do much to clean up PQ, though.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I was actually quite surprised what the HQV Reon processor in my old Onkyo 876 did for low-quality VHS home movies; it provided a suite of scaling and picture enhancement options that really did help. So, I have no doubt that a Lumy could enhance a laserdisc signal.


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> I have known that the input and output are not locked in non-genlock mode, but are the audio and video also not locked together even if you route both through the radiance? That would mean those are almost constantly out of sync in non-genlock mode.


The audio delay through the Radiance Pro is measured in nS (nanoseconds), and so for humans is effectively 0 delay. This never changes.

The video variance is 16.7 mS for 60 Hertz, and 42 mS for 24 Hertz when Genlock is off. So, set up correctly the video to audio variance through the Radiance Pro is plus or minus 21 mS for the worst case, which is 24 Hertz. This would be in the "not noticeable by humans" range if the projector video input to video output is Genlocked.

I think saying "almost constantly out of sync in non-genlock mode" is not an accurate description. In non-Genlock mode I would say that "the video and audio are in sync and have a constant time relationship plus or minus 21 mS at 24 Hertz." In other words they are always "in sync" within an epsilon time variance which is below the human perception level if there are no other devices with timing variance. This meets the goal of keeping lip-sync variance below human perception. The rub comes in that I do not think projectors are Genlocked and so add another variance of plus or minus 21 mS at 24 Hertz. Added together these can make "perfect" lip sync difficult, or not achievable, for those who are sensitive to lip-sync errors.

I do not consider myself hyper-sensitive to lip-sync errors, but once I noticed a lip-sync issue on music videos (mostly instruments), it was a slippery slope for me on the way to turning Genlock on in the Pro for 24 Hertz. Historically I have at times used Genlock and other times left it off. I do not think I would need it for 60 Hertz content since only a plus or minus 8.4 mS variance. Also, I do not typically notice the issue watching movies at 24 Hertz once I am "close enough" with the audio delay setting. However, I am planning to use Genlock for 24 Hertz (but not 60 Hertz) content now that I have taken the time to dial in lip-sync using musical instruments. I like the idea that movies will have as ideal lip-sync as possible.


----------



## jrp

Des511 said:


> Curious question. Has anybody used the Pro model with a laserdisc player?


Last I looked at Laser Disc forums (admittedly a while ago), the best choice for laser disc was considered to be the Lumagen Radiance 2144. Its TV decoder has an excellent 3D Comb filter, and of course the 2144 has the deinterlacing, scaling, and other features, of all Radiance processors.

We have a number of customers still using Laser Disc's through a Radiance 2144, and then the output of the 2144 to a Radiance Pro. In fact just this week I sold a Radiance Pro 5348 to a Radiance 2144 owner who plans to keep the 2144 in service for analog sources.

We no longer make the 2144, and I have a list of people on a waiting list for one in case someone trades one in. A couple years ago I did look at doing a "final build" of 2144's but found I could not even buy all the parts needed.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> I am not super sensitive to lip-sync, but when I was trying to notice the lip-sync I found it interesting that I could tell that 32 mS was not enough, and 42 mS was a bit too much. However, I believe that had I not been trying so hard, anything in the 32 to 42 mS would have been acceptable, and the range of acceptable could well be larger.


Research has shown we become aware of lipsync (as in, "hey lipsync looks out") when sound is ahead of video around 45ms or video is behind audio by around 125ms. So, if a system is within this range then generally people are happy. If you actually concentrate on lipsync you can see much smaller errors.

Fortunately, it can be measured quite easily with hardware such as the:

Sync-One2 makes accurate AV Sync / lip sync measurement quick & easy (harkwood.co.uk) 

In my system, I have all lipsyncs corrected for all source hardware/audio codecs, and then for occasional bad sources, I can adjust on the fly in steps of 22ms (half the 45ms above), which allows quick correction. Or, I can dive in and do ms adjustments to get things spot on. The quick adjustment is usually sufficient. 

But once you start to focus on lipsync issues it can then be hard to not see them. A bit like looking for digital video artefacts; once you see them, you can't unsee them.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Research has shown we become aware of lipsync (as in, "hey lipsync looks out") when sound is ahead of video around 45ms or video is behind audio by around 125ms. So, if a system is within this range then generally people are happy. If you actually concentrate on lipsync you can see much smaller errors.
> 
> Fortunately, it can be measured quite easily with hardware such as the:
> 
> Sync-One2 makes accurate AV Sync / lip sync measurement quick & easy (harkwood.co.uk)
> 
> In my system, I have all lipsyncs corrected for all source hardware/audio codecs, and then for occasional bad sources, I can adjust on the fly in steps of 22ms (half the 45ms above), which allows quick correction. Or, I can dive in and do ms adjustments to get things spot on. The quick adjustment is usually sufficient.
> 
> But once you start to focus on lipsync issues it can then be hard to not see them. A bit like looking for digital video artefacts; once you see them, you can't unsee them.


Some research I was looking at showed it to be "subconsciously disturbing" at much lower levels. This is a fancy reproduction of the graph from some 2017 research (Analysis of audio and video synchronization in TV digital broadcast devices)


----------



## Clark Burk

How close can you come using the A/V sync test on the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark disc?


----------



## Clark Burk

So the audio delay can not be adjusted on the Lumagen so if audio is ahead of the video you would delay the audio using the audio receiver and if video was ahead you would delay the video using the Lumagen....correct?


----------



## Bill DePalma

jrp said:


> Last I looked at Laser Disc forums (admittedly a while ago), the best choice for laser disc was considered to be the Lumagen Radiance 2144. Its TV decoder has an excellent 3D Comb filter, and of course the 2144 has the deinterlacing, scaling, and other features, of all Radiance processors.
> 
> We have a number of customers still using Laser Disc's through a Radiance 2144, and then the output of the 2144 to a Radiance Pro. In fact just this week I sold a Radiance Pro 5348 to a Radiance 2144 owner who plans to keep the 2144 in service for analog sources.
> 
> We no longer make the 2144, and I have a list of people on a waiting list for one in case someone trades one in. A couple years ago I did look at doing a "final build" of 2144's but found I could not even buy all the parts needed.


Just to chime in on Laserdisc use, just yesterday I watched Criterion’s laserdisc of L’aventura through a Lumagen 4242 with nice results. In my case, I have the Lumagen at the end of the video chain to accommodate analog sources. Sometimes you just need to watch a laserdisc.


----------



## asharma

Mark_H said:


> But once you start to focus on lipsync issues it can then be hard to not see them. A bit like looking for digital video artefacts; once you see them, you can't unsee them.


Darn annoying once your eyes and brain start to notice lip sync issues…You are 100% correct!


----------



## pixphipau

garyolearysteele said:


> Thanks for your reply. I had a professional calibration and have the tone mapping set up. Changing the settings for HDR10 material has a clear difference with each click of Max light and also Dynpad, I’ve played with them for hours with different material .. with HLG based HDR however, those settings don’t initially appear to do anything. At first I wondered if DTM was just not supported, but when you change Max light and get to a really high value (I think 1500 or 2000 ish) you see a big jump to a dark image. The info screens are different, e.g there’s no MaxCLL values etc and no screen saying dynamic HDR is enabled as it would normally. Instead it says:
> 
> “Source HLG
> Using settings for <= 2500”
> 
> HLG is designed for live broadcasting HDR and I wonder if the metadata isn’t there since it won’t have been mastered as such (or whatever the term is for the production process). Either way it looks bad on my screen. HLG via Sky TV is new and I only saw it appear as an option this week. I’ve disabled it for now.
> 
> Thanks
> Gary


Hi sorry to be a pain, did you ever sort this Problem with sky uhd being very dark?


----------



## Sittler27

jrp said:


> A couple comments on calibration:
> 
> We do not have any known issues with Lightspace/Colourspace, or Calman, that I am aware of. I don't have enough info on Chromapure to say either way.
> 
> There are a couple things to be aware of for calibration:
> 
> If there is an active source, the patterns can take longer to draw. A while back Craig Rounds reported that, some of the time, Lightspace, Colourspace (and other calibration tools), do not seem to wait long enough to read the patch in this case. So, I recommend selecting an input with no source, or the source is completely off (pull power if an AppleTV or other device that has a Zombie mode that can create a lot of interrupts and slow the patch draw time). You might even pull power on all sources since even an unselected source can create lots of HDMI interrupts and slow down drawing. Since it takes time before the source enters Zombie Mode, it means the problems this can cause might happen hours into the calibration profile run.
> 
> Make sure your PC is on wall power. We have seen cases where the USB port has issues on some (but not all) PCs unless they are on wall power. I suspect everyone has their PC on wall power for calibration, but wanted to mention it.
> 
> You can add a delay from draw-command to patch-read. This does increase the time to profile, but it might help keep things in sync between the calibration program and the Radiance Pro. If you disconnect all sources, this likely is not needed.
> 
> Make sure your PC is not set to go to sleep after a certain amount of time. I think the calibration software should keep the PC awake in any case, but I do this to make sure.
> 
> I do not think it should matter, but it would not hurt to shutdown unnecessary applications on the PC on the slim chance they might affect the calibration software profile run. This suggestion is likely me being overly paranoid though.
> 
> You might consider a smaller profile first to make sure everything is working. After this completes successfully, then run the large profile.
> 
> A consumer level probe (e.g. the i1) can take longer to read and so you need to make sure it is allotted enough time for each read, especially on dark patches. A professional probe (e.g. CR-100, or Kline K10) is much faster and I believe more robust at doing large profiles.


I've been trying to build some LUTs by profiling my Lumagen RP + JVC/DCR, but have come across a number of issues with patch generation.

Then I came across this post and began to re-calibrate with all my input source devices unplugged, but I've found something else I'd like to bring forward here.

In doing an HDR cal (JVC on HDR10/Profile Off/High Lamp/Filter On and RP on CMS1 outputting SDRP3), when all input devices are unplugged and you start the Lumagen RP, it seems to go to Input 10 and then when generating a measurement it always reads the native gamut as being basically Rec709 even though I'm targetting DCI P3 D65 2.4.

Then I realized that the input colourspace was showing Rec604? or Rec709 sometimes, not Rec2020.
So I then started an input source device and played some Rec2020 material and re-measured and voila, the gamut measured was close to DCI-P3. 
But of course at this point my input devices is powered on, so I unplugged it and noticed the Lumagen RP input colourspace remains as last was played (Rec2020). I was then able to perform the HDR cal with the proper gamut being targeted.

So long story short, in my testing, you not only need to unplug your devices, before that you need to input some Rec2020 material first and then power it off, in order to do a proper HDR cal.

I'm presuming you need to do the same for an SDR (Rec709) calibration.

Edit: I also noticed that there are still some bad patches being generated during auto-measures even with all input source devices unplugged. It doesn't happen as often as it used to with devices powered on but it still occurred twice in a row for me today. 
Colourspace is the sw in my case.


----------



## Technology3456

Something funny happened, funny in light of the discussions about upscaling. I was fortunate and grateful to be able to demo an extremely premium Home Theater which included a professionally installed Lumagen, and the theater owner let me bring my own disc to compare to my setup at home. So I brought a 4K Transformers disc, and we played it, and to me, everything was as it was supposed to be, but when he took the disc out of the player after the demo, he told me here was my Transformers blu-ray back. I said "blu-ray?"

It turned out, in my rush out the door, with a bunch of bare discs sitting upside down on my shelf that I had been testing at home, I grabbed the blu-ray by accident. So the whole time the demo was going, I had no idea it was the blu-ray.

Before this, we had demoed native 4K content from other scenes. Not only did the Transformers blu-ray pass as 4K to me, but I thought it was better than some of the native 4K scenes. Granted, Transformers (The Last Knight) is a very high quality disc, and the HT owner purposefully chose some 4K scenes to demo that are hard on the projector, like the beginning of Blade Runner 2049. We also demoed Never Enough song from The Greatest Showman in 4K, the Midway airplane attack for the Atmos, and Bradley Cooper singing the fill the void song in that movie they did (edit: A Star Is Born. It slipped my memory when I wrote this post). That might have looked the best of the native 4K scenes, maybe that or Never Enough, or maybe a shot that showed Black Panther's suit in one of the MCU movies. There was also a scene from The Meg with really sharp skin tones. So I'd say maybe those looked similar quality to Transformers blu-ray, while Blade Runner 2049 and Midway maybe looked worse (more image noise, and more stutter and blur, than Transformers and the other scenes).

This is all subjective. But the point is, small sample size aside, for a blu-ray to perform in the same league as native 4K scenes, playing on a native 4K projector, it means I had a very good experience with Lumagen upscaling. It's not an exhaustive scientific test, and I should provide full disclosure that I am an inexperienced non-expert on this topic, but... to me it looked to be doing an excellent job. It looked just like I remembered the 4K disc. The 1080p disc is a great 1080p disc, but after investigating more since the demo, I do feel there is a little less detail in the 1080p disc, which you can see in some close up shots, but it was like the Lumagen upscaling was adding the detail back in that is normally only found on the 4K disc.

I never saw the 4K disc on his setup, but it made the 1080p disc look more like the 4K disc as much as I am familiar with it, and made it look as good as the other _4k _scenes we demoed. The unknown is in whether the Transformers 4K disc is better than every other 4K scene, so as much as the Lumagen upscaling improved the blu-ray, the 4K disc on that setup, had I seen it, would have looked even better. I have no way to know that, but I can at least say for sure that the Lumagen upscaling made the 1080p Transformers disc look up to the quality of other good 4K transfers on the same projector. It did not look out of place _at all_.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Some research I was looking at showed it to be "subconsciously disturbing" at much lower levels. This is a fancy reproduction of the graph from some 2017 research (Analysis of audio and video synchronization in TV digital broadcast devices)


Thank you. That research is more recent than the one I referenced and more closely matches my own experience.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Sittler27 said:


> I've been trying to build some LUTs by profiling my Lumagen RP + JVC/DCR, but have come across a number of issues with patch generation.
> 
> Then I came across this post and began to re-calibrate with all my input source devices unplugged, but I've found something else I'd like to bring forward here.
> 
> In doing an HDR cal (JVC on HDR10/Profile Off/High Lamp/Filter On and RP on CMS1 outputting SDRP3), when all input devices are unplugged and you start the Lumagen RP, it seems to go to Input 10 and then when generating a measurement it always reads the native gamut as being basically Rec709 even though I'm targetting DCI P3 D65 2.4.
> 
> Then I realized that the input colourspace was showing Rec604? or Rec709 sometimes, not Rec2020.


he

Did this occur with auto convert turned on? If so it is expected behaviour. Auto convert should be OFF when doing any calibration runs and should only be turned on after the LUT is created or if you want to check colour accuracy once the calibration is done if you are using auto convert for 709 in DCI P3 container.


----------



## Nima

jrp said:


> The audio delay through the Radiance Pro is measured in nS (nanoseconds), and so for humans is effectively 0 delay. This never changes.
> 
> The video variance is 16.7 mS for 60 Hertz, and 42 mS for 24 Hertz when Genlock is off. So, set up correctly the video to audio variance through the Radiance Pro is plus or minus 21 mS for the worst case, which is 24 Hertz. This would be in the "not noticeable by humans" range if the projector video input to video output is Genlocked.
> 
> I think saying "almost constantly out of sync in non-genlock mode" is not an accurate description. In non-Genlock mode I would say that "the video and audio are in sync and have a constant time relationship plus or minus 21 mS at 24 Hertz." In other words they are always "in sync" within an epsilon time variance which is below the human perception level if there are no other devices with timing variance. This meets the goal of keeping lip-sync variance below human perception. The rub comes in that I do not think projectors are Genlocked and so add another variance of plus or minus 21 mS at 24 Hertz. Added together these can make "perfect" lip sync difficult, or not achievable, for those who are sensitive to lip-sync errors.
> 
> I do not consider myself hyper-sensitive to lip-sync errors, but once I noticed a lip-sync issue on music videos (mostly instruments), it was a slippery slope for me on the way to turning Genlock on in the Pro for 24 Hertz. Historically I have at times used Genlock and other times left it off. I do not think I would need it for 60 Hertz content since only a plus or minus 8.4 mS variance. Also, I do not typically notice the issue watching movies at 24 Hertz once I am "close enough" with the audio delay setting. However, I am planning to use Genlock for 24 Hertz (but not 60 Hertz) content now that I have taken the time to dial in lip-sync using musical instruments. I like the idea that movies will have as ideal lip-sync as possible.


So for video delay we can take the number shown in the Lumagen A/V sync menu under Edid delay reporting?


----------



## garyolearysteele

pixphipau said:


> Hi sorry to be a pain, did you ever sort this Problem with sky uhd being very dark?


No I didn’t, it’s unwatchable for me so I’ve disabled it in sky settings. The sports channels now use HLG so it’s less optional thait was where you could just select the 4K SDR versions.

This was from Lumagen at the time; 

“HLG does not have Metadata (other than reporting it is HLG). The Pro does do DTM on HLG but it is a different algorithm and need different settings. Try adjusting the Max Light, and Low-ratio, in the left-arrow menu.

We have clients who have made some adjustments and are happy with the HLG results”

But the Sky tone mapping or whatever they use when you disable 10-bit video looks a lot better than anything I could achieve with settings and so stuck with that.

Be good to know if you find a solution.


----------



## pixphipau

garyolearysteele said:


> No I didn’t, it’s unwatchable for me so I’ve disabled it in sky settings. The sports channels now use HLG so it’s less optional thait was where you could just select the 4K SDR versions.
> 
> This was from Lumagen at the time;
> 
> “HLG does not have Metadata (other than reporting it is HLG). The Pro does do DTM on HLG but it is a different algorithm and need different settings. Try adjusting the Max Light, and Low-ratio, in the left-arrow menu.
> 
> We have clients who have made some adjustments and are happy with the HLG results”
> 
> But the Sky tone mapping or whatever they use when you disable 10-bit video looks a lot better than anything I could achieve with settings and so stuck with that.
> 
> Be good to know if you find a solution.


I dont know if you avforum? Anyway this is a workaround it appears…Post in thread 'Lumagen Radiance Pro owners thread'


----------



## garyolearysteele

pixphipau said:


> I dont know if you avforum? Anyway this is a workaround it appears…Post in thread 'Lumagen Radiance Pro owners thread'
> 
> @Gordon Fraser any advice?


Interesting, mine isn’t as bad as those examples but looks very dim. Will try turning off mapping, it looks like a bug then.


----------



## pixphipau

garyolearysteele said:


> Interesting, mine isn’t as bad as those examples but looks very dim. Will try turning off mapping, it looks like a bug then.


Im not 100% convinced this is a fix tbh….


----------



## garyolearysteele

pixphipau said:


> Im not 100% convinced this is a fix tbh….


Those examples are using a TV by the looks of it so what appears to be a fix there may still look bad on a projector. Only way I’ve been able to make Sky 4K watchable with the lumagen is by disabling HLG. Max light etc hasn’t made a lot of difference, or at least I can’t get it to look as good as Sky’s own conversion to SDR.


----------



## EVH78

garyolearysteele said:


> But the Sky tone mapping or whatever they use when you disable 10-bit video looks a lot better than anything I could achieve with settings and so stuck with that


Yes, but then everything else like Netflix / Amazon etc. is not HDR - functional too. I have the same problems with HLG, sometimes it would not even detect HLG in my setup.


----------



## Sittler27

Gordon Fraser said:


> he
> 
> Did this occur with auto convert turned on? If so it is expected behaviour. Auto convert should be OFF when doing any calibration runs and should only be turned on after the LUT is created or if you want to check colour accuracy once the calibration is done if you are using auto convert for 709 in DCI P3 container.


Thanks for this. I do wish I'd known about it 100 lamp hours ago after several LUT calibration attempts. 

Anyhoo - I did find a fairly stable workflow for a successful calibration finally.

Cheers.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Question for the experienced users on the board that probably will result in several "it depends" responses:

If you have used the RP with a pixel-shifter, do you upscale or leave the signal native for 1080 content? I expect to scale up anything below 1080. My initial tests show a good picture from a 1080p60 to 2160p60 scaling from the RP but so far I haven't had enough time to compare it with upscaling by the Epson or just viewing it at native resolution; I don't see much difference in the sharpness algorithm between the two and just disabled it. Kris measure my calibrated output in bt2020 mode to be about 17fl at the screen, so I have initially set the mapping to 31 and ~320nits. Does this sound 'bout right?

I am running an HDR10 signal into the RP from the DIVA, with the EDID for Sony A10 enabled, ~1000 MaxCLL for DV content and the picture certainly doesn't look wrong, but I haven't had time yet to try the RP alone with an HDR10 signal direct from the source, bypassing the DIVA invoking LLDV functionality at the source.

It took a few times through the manual, which could use some work from a technical writer/copy editor, but I think I have a handle on what I am able to do with it aside from the calibrations that are not accessible to me without hardware/software. I can tell that the RP is going to enhance my viewing considerably and allow a longer useful life from my Epson, which still throws a fine picture given good source material and signal processing.


----------



## bobof

I've done both upscale in RP and leaving the signal native; truth be told there's very little difference for me at seated position as I'm using a woven AT screen. Losing the eshift whine on my JVC is one tangible reason to disable the upscaling in the RP.


----------



## Technology3456

bobof said:


> I've done both upscale in RP and leaving the signal native; truth be told there's very little difference for me at seated position as I'm using a woven AT screen. Losing the eshift whine on my JVC is one tangible reason to disable the upscaling in the RP.


Im considering a dreamscreen. Are you saying screens like that will affect sharpness and perceived resolution even from seating distance? For now I will use it with a native 1080p projector (no e-shift).


----------



## blake

Technology3456 said:


> Im considering a dreamscreen. Are you saying screens like that will affect sharpness and perceived resolution even from seating distance? For now I will use it with a native 1080p projector (no e-shift).


Dreamscreen is multi layer weave to preserve acoustic transparency and improve gain. Theoretically, multi layer screen will cause cross pixel contamination and worsening of detail. I can’t comment if this happens in a perceptible manner in real life, as I have not compared different weave technologies side by side nor could I find reviews that do so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hoi

I was wondering if this is an issue. I mainly use my HTPC to watch movies. The last couple of Nvidia drivers have caused the Lumagen to show HDR metadata values as 0 when I am using DTM. Is this ok or should I go back to the last working Nvidia driver?


----------



## bobof

Technology3456 said:


> Im considering a dreamscreen. Are you saying screens like that will affect sharpness and perceived resolution even from seating distance? For now I will use it with a native 1080p projector (no e-shift).


Dreamscreen V7 has very little texture (unlike mine, Screen Research Clearpix 4K) but it does have a slight softening of edges. Good 1.0 gain non-AT screens should be a bit better (but they're not AT!  )

You also need to factor how big you are projecting. The screen material has weave which is a fixed size, but obviously as you make the image bigger then individual pixels are less affected by the weave. My screen is at the small end of things at 92" 16x9 diagonal.

For me the benefits outweigh the downsides of the AT, but it means I'm not convinced a 4K upgrade would give much advantage without a screen surface upgrade.


----------



## dlinsley

Technology3456 said:


> Im considering a dreamscreen. Are you saying screens like that will affect sharpness and perceived resolution even from seating distance? For now I will use it with a native 1080p projector (no e-shift).


I have a v6 screen, 120" wide + DCR lens, and with my nose to the screen can still see the inter-pixel gap from my RS3000. Softening is very minor IMHO, and that is right at the screen not at seating.


----------



## Kris Deering

Hoi said:


> I was wondering if this is an issue. I mainly use my HTPC to watch movies. The last couple of Nvidia drivers have caused the Lumagen to show HDR metadata values as 0 when I am using DTM. Is this ok or should I go back to the last working Nvidia driver?
> 
> View attachment 3170655


In this case it will use whatever the default is set to in the Lumagen setup menus. I think it defaults from the factory at 4000 nits, but you can change it to whatever you want.


----------



## Technology3456

bobof said:


> Dreamscreen V7 has very little texture (unlike mine, Screen Research Clearpix 4K) but it does have a slight softening of edges. Good 1.0 gain non-AT screens should be a bit better (but they're not AT!  )
> 
> You also need to factor how big you are projecting. The screen material has weave which is a fixed size, but obviously as you make the image bigger then individual pixels are less affected by the weave. My screen is at the small end of things at 92" 16x9 diagonal.
> 
> For me the benefits outweigh the downsides of the AT, but it means I'm not convinced a 4K upgrade would give much advantage without a screen surface upgrade.


My screen will be about 130 inches 2.35:1, seating distance about 14 feet. Only 1080p projectors now, native 4K maybe ten years from now.


----------



## DVD MAN

Hoi said:


> I was wondering if this is an issue. I mainly use my HTPC to watch movies. The last couple of Nvidia drivers have caused the Lumagen to show HDR metadata values as 0 when I am using DTM. Is this ok or should I go back to the last working Nvidia driver?
> 
> View attachment 3170655


My Zappitti has no metadata so I changed it to 4000 as default.

I believe you can change it here:


----------



## Hoi

DVD MAN said:


> My Zappitti has no metadata so I changed it to 4000 as default.
> 
> I believe you can change it here:


Mine was set to 12,000 for whatever reason and I changed it to 4000. I ended up reverting my Nvidia driver back to an older one because I prefer using my HTPC due to its shear speed vs my Oppo 205 and Nvidia Shield.

Out of curiosity, I'm assuming that 4000 is a safe number but would it be beneficial to lower it even further?


----------



## jrp

Hoi said:


> Mine was set to 12,000 for whatever reason and I changed it to 4000. I ended up reverting my Nvidia driver back to an older one because I prefer using my HTPC due to its shear speed vs my Oppo 205 and Nvidia Shield.
> 
> Out of curiosity, I'm assuming that 4000 is a safe number but would it be beneficial to lower it even further?


[EDIT] Note: In Max Default "Auto" mode, Max Default is _only_ used if there is no MaxCLL, and no Mastering Monitor Max, reported by the source device. That is, they are reported as 0. If you set Max Default mode to "Always" the Max default will always be used. This is a unique setting for each input and each input memory. Currently you would select "Always" for the Zapitti. [END EDIT]

The DTM adds a pad ("DynPad") at the scene cut to account for some scenes that get a lot brighter within the scene. The only thing the Max Default does is tell the Radiance Pro DTM, "no scene is ever above Max Default" (when it is active). So if you had a scene at, say, 3800 nits, and the Pro decided to Pad it to 4200 nits, the Default Max = 4000 would limit the pad to no more than 4000. All scenes get padded, and only scenes near the Max Default might be affected and even then the effect may not be visible.

If you have a movie that you know the MaxCLL for, you could temporarily set Max Default to that for the Zapitti. So you could set it to 1000 for a 1000 nit title. However, you would need to change it to 4000 nits again for a 4000 nit title to prevent a lot of clipping caused by it limiting to 1000 nits for a 4000 nit title.

The only scenes that might improve would be those close enough to the lowered 1000 nit value that the Pro would have chosen to pad above the 1000 nit setting. This may well not change the look, and so leaving the Max Default at 4000 is safer and likely the difference in adjusting it for each movie is small to none.

For the exception that proves the rule, consider Blade Runner 2049: It reports a MaxCLL of 184 (as I recall) on a player that correctly reports MaxCLL, but has frames with MaxCLL's to about 480 nits (again, as I recall). For BR2049, using 184 for MaxCLL looks better in a few scenes. So the producer's MaxCLL value is better in a few scenes than a Default Max of 4000 or even 1000. On a Zapitti, you could set Max Default to 200 for BR2049, and then change it back after. BR2049 is the case that we used to justify using MaxCLL (or Max Default) at all for DTM. The difference is small, but when MaxCLL is reported correctly, the Pro uses it automatically, and it can in some cases, like BR2049, be a small benefit.


----------



## docrog

Is there any likelihood that there would be a future RP firmware update targeted at HDR10+?


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> The DTM adds a pad ("DynPad") at the scene cut to account for some scenes that get a lot brighter within the scene. The only thing the Max Default does is tell the Radiance Pro DTM, "no scene is ever above Max Default" (when it is active). So if you had a scene at, say, 3800 nits, and the Pro decided to Pad it to 4200 nits, the Default Max = 4000 would limit the pad to no more than 4000. All scenes get padded, and only scenes near the Max Default might be affected and even then the effect may not be visible.
> 
> If you have a movie that you know the MaxCLL for, you could temporarily set Max Default to that for the Zapitti. So you could set it to 1000 for a 1000 nit title. However, you would need to change it to 4000 nits again for a 4000 nit title to prevent a lot of clipping caused by it limiting to 1000 nits for a 4000 nit title.
> 
> The only scenes that might improve would be those close enough to the lowered 1000 nit value that the Pro would have chosen to pad above the 1000 nit setting. This may well not change the look, and so leaving the Max Default at 4000 is safer and likely the difference in adjusting it for each movie is small to none.
> 
> For the exception that proves the rule, consider Blade Runner 2049: It reports a MaxCLL of 184 (as I recall) on a player that correctly reports MaxCLL, but has frames with MaxCLL's to about 480 nits (again, as I recall). For BR2049, using 184 for MaxCLL looks better in a few scenes. So the producer's MaxCLL value is better in a few scenes than a Default Max of 4000 or even 1000. On a Zapitti, you could set Max Default to 200 for BR2049, and then change it back after. BR2049 is the case that we used to justify using MaxCLL (or Max Default) at all for DTM. The difference is small, but when MaxCLL is reported correctly, the Pro uses it automatically, and it can in some cases, like BR2049, be a small benefit.


Jim, what about those few films (Fury Road, The Meg, etc.) with MaxCLL reportedly well exceeding 4000? How does DynPad affect these films if left at 4000?


----------



## BrolicBeast

asherman8 said:


> Has anyone experienced recent trouble with the recommended Control4 driver? Mine was working perfectly and I have suddenly lost any ability of Control4 remotes/App to control my Lumagen RP. Curious if it’s just something that happened in my setup.
> Thanks!


Have your dealer verify that the license was indeed associated with your controller and activated, versus just a trial (it happens). Ask me how I know. Lol! #HardPersonalLesson 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Jim, what about those few films (Fury Road, The Meg, etc.) with MaxCLL reportedly well exceeding 4000? How does DynPad affect these films if left at 4000?


Not Jim but if MaxCLL is greater than Master Monitor reported, it uses the Mastering monitor. So it would limit those titles to 4000 nits.


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> Not Jim but if MaxCLL is greater than Master Monitor reported, it uses the Mastering monitor. So it would limit those titles to 4000 nits.


I can confirm Kris is correct on the above.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Is there any likelihood that there would be a future RP firmware update targeted at HDR10+?


I believe HDR10+ is a very reasonable approach to improving HDR10. It is on the under-consideration list. However, IMO the Radiance Pro DTM is at the point where there would not be much advantage to supporting HDR10+. If the Radiance Pro did not have such good DTM, including the "intra-scene adaptation," it would likely be on our to-do list.

I just checked and it appears there are currently only 47 HDR10+ titles (List of 4k Blu-ray Discs with HDR10+ |). Since it has now been around for some time, this is not great penetration of the market. If HDR10+ becomes more common it would increase the likelihood we would want to support it.

Once we have completed the new pipeline, PiP, and likely more DTM tuning, I will take another look at the Radiance Pro supporting HDR10+.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Not Jim but if MaxCLL is greater than Master Monitor reported, it uses the Mastering monitor. So it would limit those titles to 4000 nits.


Thanks. Kris. In those cases where the film's MaxCLL exceed 4000, where should DynPad be set for best results?


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> So the audio delay can not be adjusted on the Lumagen so if audio is ahead of the video you would delay the audio using the audio receiver and if video was ahead you would delay the video using the Lumagen....correct?


I was scanning back for things I missed and found your post. Sorry for the delay responding.

======

You are correct.

What I recommend is to set the Radiance Pro for video delay longer than needed. Then set the audio delay to match for the most critical lip-sync source (see below). If you have sources that have a different lip-sync timing, you can reduce, or lengthen, the video delay in the Pro for each source, and you can even use the memories (MEMA to MEMD) to have multiple settings for a specific source if different content providers have different lip-sync delays.

This is a frame-time adjustment and so a course adjustment. However, for 60 Hertz sources the 16.7 mS steps work pretty well. What this implies is if you have a primary 24 Hertz movie source, set its lip-sync in the audio processor first after setting the video delay. Then you can use the video frame delay adjustment for the 60 Hertz sources and get good results.

As I mentioned having Genlock on for 24 Hertz content can get you a better lipsync for 24 Hertz content.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks. Kris. In those cases where the film's MaxCLL exceed 4000, where should DynPad be set for best results?


Not Kris, but:

The DynPad setting is intended to be independent of the MaxCLL of the content. A necessary part of the set-and-forget goal. I believe we have achieved this goal.

The current recommended DynPad = 3. This is a good balance of more brightness, with the chance a few scenes might have some minor clipping on bright highlights (e.g. spotlights).

A DynPad = 5 reduces light output, but also reduces the chance a scene might clip bright highlights. If you have a lot of light this might be a good choice.

Or split the difference and set DynPad = 4.


----------



## OzHDHT

Having now just put it out there at the webinar on the new JVC models, Jim, what's the likelihood (as I know someone else already posted) of seeing a new HDMI 2.1 48Gbps input boards at some stage? Only really a concern right now for the PS5 and trying to run 4K 120 with the new JVC's, which I may have just talked myself into


----------



## Kris Deering

OzHDHT said:


> Having now just put it out there at the webinar on the new JVC models, Jim, what's the likelihood (as I know someone else already posted) of seeing a new HDMI 2.1 48Gbps input boards at some stage? Only really a concern right now for the PS5 and trying to run 4K 120 with the new JVC's, which I may have just talked myself into


Since this is just mainly for gaming, I would just use the second input on the projector directly from the game console to retain the benefits you want to take advantage of (higher frame rate).


----------



## OzHDHT

Kris Deering said:


> Since this is just mainly for gaming, I would just use the second input on the projector directly from the game console to retain the benefits you want to take advantage of (higher frame rate).


Only one drama with that scenario for me Kris. In my setup, which I do have a second input cable in place mainly for testing and back up, I'd have to get audio to the Lumagen somehow to pass into the MX160. 

Good presentation btw on the Webinar. I'm now genuinely thinking about the NZ9/RS2100 and have put an email into my contact at JVC Pro division locally to see if he has any info on local release yet.


----------



## Aareses

Option #1 - 2021 Sony VPL-VW325ES + Lumagen Processor

Option #2 - 2020 Sony VPL-VW715ES

Which is an overall better solution and why?


----------



## OzHDHT

Aareses said:


> Option #1 - 2021 Sony VPL-VW325ES + Lumagen Processor
> 
> Option #2 - 2020 Sony VPL-VW715ES
> 
> Which is an overall better solution and why?


You particularly wedded to Sony given the launch of the new JVC NZ line and NZ7 at the same price point as 715ES and better specs?


----------



## Clark Burk

Not sure what your primary purposes are but if are not opposed to buying used equipment there should be some nice deals in the classified section for the next few weeks as those moving up to new models sell their used gear. 
I would think a nice used NX7 with a 4242 would be a great combo.


----------



## Clark Burk

I use an Oppo 203 sending source direct to the LRP. That takes care of the resolution and frame rate but I've noticed it sends YCbCr in color space 4:4:4 at 12 bit. Is that optimal for the LRP to receive in that format or is it better to send the LRP 4:2:2 at 10 bit?
I believe that the JVC projectors do better with 4:2:2 12 bit signals which would also be less taxing on the cable bandwidth. The Oppo and LRP are both great with chroma processing but if the JVC is going to take that signal and convert it to 4:2:2 12 bit for it's processing does it make sense to send it a higher bandwidth signal?


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> I use an Oppo 203 sending source direct to the LRP. That takes care of the resolution and frame rate but I've noticed it sends YCbCr in color space 4:4:4 at 12 bit. Is that optimal for the LRP to receive in that format or is it better to send the LRP 4:2:2 at 10 bit?
> I believe that the JVC projectors do better with 4:2:2 12 bit signals which would also be less taxing on the cable bandwidth. The Oppo and LRP are both great with chroma processing but if the JVC is going to take that signal and convert it to 4:2:2 12 bit for it's processing does it make sense to send it a higher bandwidth signal?


set output to 422 and bit depth to auto


----------



## Nima

Just out of curiosity wjy Auto and not 12bit to begin with?


----------



## Clark Burk

I’m going to guess auto would let the bit rate change if you wanted to watch a source such as 4k 60p.


----------



## Kris Deering

422 is always 12 bit so it doesn’t matter regardless


----------



## asherman8

BrolicBeast said:


> Have your dealer verify that the license was indeed associated with your controller and activated, versus just a trial (it happens). Ask me how I know. Lol! #HardPersonalLesson
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


You are/were 100% correct. That’s exactly what the problem was. As soon as the Driver was correctly registered, boom, everything working perfectly again. 
Thanks for the reply!!


----------



## Clark Burk

In case you missed it:
*082621- Posted 090321 Bugfix for incorrect update of config in 071021-072821, which could double the value of HDR max default or HDR dsat level. This update will correct these values if needed. 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.*


----------



## Kurvenal

Mike_WI said:


> *FW 072821*
> - _Posted 080421_
> Changed Letterbox Zoom in menu to Letterbox Control (in autoaspect control and under Input: InConfigs: RES: Sizing) and added an option of 'Bottom' in addition to 'Zoom' and 'Off'.
> The 'Bottom' setting is simpler than using input vertical shift to set up for top-down masking.


I would like to give a shout-out to the Lumagen team (with an assist from Kris Deering who provided a timely nudge) regarding the addition of the new 'Bottom' option to Letterbox Control.

I recently got help from Seymour Screen Excellence to convert my masking system to "double top" so that I could rely 100% on top masking to get a better viewing angle for letterboxed content when I shift the image to line up with the bottom of my 16:9 screen. I was previously trying to implement this with Input Vertical Shift, but as per the release notes quoted above the new Letterbox Control Bottom option combined with the Full v4 reporting of the detected AR makes this so much easier to set up through my control system that it has really increased the value proposition for me of owning a Radiance Pro.

Thanks again to the Lumagen team for being so attentive to the needs of your customers.


----------



## alv

*082621- Posted 090321 Bugfix for incorrect update of config in 071021-072821, which could double the value of HDR max default or HDR dsat level. This update will correct these values if needed. 
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.*
[/QUOTE]

How important is this? Not sure what they do? I have to borrow a computer to update since I own a Mac.


----------



## SJHT

Is there documentation for this new “bottom” command? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Erod

What is the general recommendation for JVC projector auto Iris settings if you have a Lumagen?

Manual, Auto 1, or Auto 2? Leave the iris open at 0 it shut it down for better contrast?

With the dynamic tone mapping of the Lumagen, should these settings be used the same as if you didn't have Lumagen?


----------



## Craig Peer

Erod said:


> What is the general recommendation for JVC projector auto Iris settings if you have a Lumagen?
> 
> Manual, Auto 1, or Auto 2? Leave the iris open at 0 it shut it down for better contrast?
> 
> With the dynamic tone mapping of the Lumagen, should these settings be used the same as if you didn't have Lumagen?


Close the manual iris down until you reach your desired brightness ( or leave at 0 if need be to do that ). Auto iris on top of that is optional, but I like it on my RS4500. I use the less aggressive dimming setting on my RS4500.


----------



## danam

Hi everybody, I think one of AVS members shared a tutorial on how to calibrate with the Radiance Pro, I thought I downloaded it but can"t find it on my computer.
Could someone please give me a lead as to where to find it ?
Thanks for the help ;-)


----------



## Kurvenal

SJHT said:


> Is there documentation for this new “bottom” command? Thanks. SJ


I am not aware of any documentation, but you can set it either globally under *MENU → Global → Video → Features → Letterbox Control*, or for individual sources under *MENU *→ *Input *_→ *Options *→ *Aspect Setup*→ _*Auto Aspect → Letterbox Control*.


----------



## Des511

Problem I’m having with the bottom command is I can’t see where I can save the setting for different aspects. I set it up for 2.35 and it worked fine but it would not work with 16.9 and just cut the bottom of the picture off. I’m sure there’s a setting in there somewhere to save it for different aspects but I can’t find it.


----------



## SJHT

Des511 said:


> Problem I’m having with the bottom command is I can’t see where I can save the setting for different aspects. I set it up for 2.35 and it worked fine but it would not work with 16.9 and just cut the bottom of the picture off. I’m sure there’s a setting in there somewhere to save it for different aspects but I can’t find it.


That’s why we could use some documentation.

I’m using this and it works perfect. Have several ARs defined for my 16:9/top masking screen….
http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


----------



## Des511

SJHT said:


> That’s why we could use some documentation.
> 
> I’m using this and it works perfect. Have several ARs defined for my 16:9/top masking screen….
> http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


Thank you. That’s the way I’ve been doing it but I was curious about how the letterbox bottom setting worked.


----------



## Grifo

I keep on getting two kinds of different issues:

1) autoaspect:
I have Crestron and an electric 4 mask Screen Research.
Radiance detects the right aspect but many times I don’t get
the consequent automatic masks movement. Some days it almost always works, others not. And this regardless the source (apple tv4k first gen, sky satellite, oppo 203); after the latest upgrades situation has slightly improved but…

2) loss of signal/ resolution:
both with sky satellite and apple tv whe I set resolution as 3840*2160 50Hz/60Hz images continually come and go (black screen) and the only way to stop this issue is change to 1080 i/p.
I have changed sky receiver many times, moved to rui pro cables, even changed the radiance but keep on getting this kind of issue.


----------



## alv

Can the Radiance Pro be updated with a Mac without Windows emulation software?


----------



## sjschaff

alv said:


> Can the Radiance Pro be updated with a Mac without Windows emulation software?


Not yet…maybe someday…or a future Radiance will support WiFi with direct updates. Anything is possible.


----------



## bferbrache

danam said:


> Hi everybody, I think one of AVS members shared a tutorial on how to calibrate with the Radiance Pro, I thought I downloaded it but can"t find it on my computer.
> Could someone please give me a lead as to where to find it ?
> Thanks for the help ;-)


Not sure if this is the post you were referring to? New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


----------



## Kurvenal

Des511 said:


> Thank you. That’s the way I’ve been doing it but I was curious about how the letterbox bottom setting worked.


The beauty of the Letterbox Control: Bottom setting is that there is no longer any need to fuss around with setting Vertical Shift values for different aspect ratios (or different resolutions). Auto Aspect lines the image up perfectly with the bottom of my screen within seconds and full v4 reports the detected AR so that my control system can send the appropriate top masking command for all of the ARs I have programmed: 1.78, 1.85, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35 and 2.40, all with just a single setting.


----------



## Des511

Kurvenal said:


> The beauty of the Letterbox Control: Bottom setting is that there is no longer any need to fuss around with setting Vertical Shift values for different aspect ratios. Auto Aspect lines the image up perfectly with the bottom of my screen within seconds and full v4 reports the detected AR so that my control system can send the appropriate top masking command for all of the ARs I have programmed: 1.78, 1.85, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35 and 2.40, all with just a single setting.


Could you give a brief explanation of your settings in the Lumagen?


----------



## danam

bferbrache said:


> Not sure if this is the post you were referring to? New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


 thx @bferbrache !!!! that is not what I was looking for but didn't know this document existed ! ;-)
very interesting.
The document I'm looking for is in the signature of the avs member (as far as I remember).
It's a step by step PDF of PPT(x?) calibration tutorial.
Thanks again for your help.


----------



## Kurvenal

Des511 said:


> Could you give a brief explanation of your settings in the Lumagen?


I have set Letterbox Control to Bottom for the relevant sources using MENU → [_Input] → Options → Aspect Setup→ Auto Aspect_ _→ Letterbox Control_.
In order to get the detected AR reported to my control system, I am using the full v4 setting described as follows in the Lumagen Software Update release notes:
*050221- Posted 051321 Added new rs232 status report option, "full v4" which appends the detected input aspect to the report (setting in the menu under Other: I/O Setup: RS-232 Setup: Report changes). There's also a ZQI24 rs232 query now that corresponds to this new status report. The detected aspect can be useful for theaters with masking systems. Aspect information is now detected for reporting whether auto aspect is on or off.*


----------



## Grifo

mmmmm.. this might help to solve the problem I was explaining above……


----------



## bferbrache

danam said:


> thx @bferbrache !!!! that is not what I was looking for but didn't know this document existed ! ;-)
> very interesting.
> The document I'm looking for is in the signature of the avs member (as far as I remember).
> It's a step by step PDF of PPT(x?) calibration tutorial.
> Thanks again for your help.


No problem, Giomania is the member you are looking for I think? 









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Flashed new Firmware on my 4446 without any Hitches. Kris Deering helping me to put the right settings in place - Thanks Kris.




www.avsforum.com





This post might be useful 









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Those of us that use Panamorph DCR lenses need to use that resolution in order to have the correct aspect ratio. On a 16:9 screen, 3840 x 2160 is correct. I wonder can the Lumagen handle a 17:9 screen with full panel and then put black bars on the side for 16:9 material and full width if it'll fit?




www.avsforum.com





Cheers 
Brian


----------



## Clark Burk

alv said:


> *082621- Posted 090321 Bugfix for incorrect update of config in 071021-072821, which could double the value of HDR max default or HDR dsat level. This update will correct these values if needed.
> Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware.*


How important is this? Not sure what they do? I have to borrow a computer to update since I own a Mac.
[/QUOTE]
May or may not be important. It really depends on the percentage of LRPs that were updated that had the issue. My guess is not that many but knowing Lumagen if there was a small chance of your unit being affected they would update the firmware to correct it.


----------



## danam

YES ! that's it @bferbrache !!! Thx a ton again  100 pages to read now ... ha ha !


----------



## Mark_H

Grifo said:


> 1) autoaspect:
> I have Crestron and an electric 4 mask Screen Research.
> Radiance detects the right aspect but many times I don’t get
> the consequent automatic masks movement. Some days it almost always works, others not. And this regardless the source (apple tv4k first gen, sky satellite, oppo 203); after the latest upgrades situation has slightly improved but…


I suspect this is your Crestron code. I'm using a similar setup (my own code) and never have such issues - when the Radiance reports a new aspect ratio my masks move... every time. 

I should say I'm not on the latest Radiance firmware (lazy!), so perhaps there is an issue I've yet to encounter, but I'm still going with the Crestron code.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mark_H said:


> I suspect this is your Crestron code. I'm using a similar setup (my own code) and never have such issues - when the Radiance reports a new aspect ratio my masks move... every time.
> 
> I should say I'm not on the latest Radiance firmware (lazy!), so perhaps there is an issue I've yet to encounter, but I'm still going with the Crestron code.


Just for debugging, you (@Grifo) could ask your Crestron programmer to display the detected AR somewhere (e.g. on your screen using the "display message on screen" functionality of the Lumagen or a wallpanel or remote´s display). This way, you can see if it´s an issue with the detection (no message displayed) or with the rest of the system/programming.


----------



## Grifo

Ok thanks everybody.
I’m going to call my programmer..
by the way, the crestron code Mark was talking about is something
the programmer gets by himself from crestron or he has to ask to Lumagen?


----------



## Die Zwei

I think Mark is referring to the custom programming which is created by your programmer himself.


----------



## Grifo

Die Zwei said:


> I think Mark is referring to the custom programming which is created by your programmer himself.


ok, so he has to find a solution, I mean.. nothing that boys from Lumagen have to tell him..?


----------



## Die Zwei

Grifo said:


> ok, so he has to find a solution, I mean.. nothing that boys from Lumagen have to tell him..?


At the current stage - nope (IMHO).
The Lumagen detects the AR. This information is send to the Crestron system which sends the corresponding commands to your masking system to move it to the desired location.
According to your observation, the AR detection of the Lumagen works correctly and the Lumagen reports the detected AR to the Crestron system.
So if the mask doesn´t move reliably, there must be an issue on the way from the Lumagen to the masking system, hence there seems to be an issue with the Crestron programming. Or there´s some mechanical issue (lose cable, etc.).
So this is something your programmer should look into. He needs to check if the information about the AR is coming correctly from the Lumagen into the Crestron system and that the Crestron system triggers the correct action according to the detected AR.
But your programmer should know how to debug that.


----------



## Grifo

Die Zwei said:


> At the current stage - nope (IMHO).
> The Lumagen detects the AR. This information is send to the Crestron system which sends the corresponding commands to your masking system to move it to the desired location.
> According to your observation, the AR detection of the Lumagen works correctly and the Lumagen reports the detected AR to the Crestron system.
> So if the mask doesn´t move reliably, there must be an issue on the way from the Lumagen to the masking system, hence there seems to be an issue with the Crestron programming. Or there´s some mechanical issue (lose cable, etc.).
> So this is something your programmer should look into. He needs to check if the information about the AR is coming correctly from the Lumagen into the Crestron system and that the Crestron system triggers the correct action according to the detected AR.
> But your programmer should know how to debug that.


Ok, I’ll report to him…
thanks once again


----------



## Erod

So now JVC has announced their new line of laser projectors coming out in October.

They are capable of HDMI 2.1 and 4K/120Hz.

What does that mean for those with Lumagen RPs who may want to upgrade to the new JVCs?


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> So now JVC has announced their new line of laser projectors coming out in October.
> 
> They are capable of HDMI 2.1 and 4K/120Hz.
> 
> What does that mean for those with Lumagen RPs who may want to upgrade to the new JVCs?


Nothing. They will continue to work just like before with the new models.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> Nothing. They will continue to work just like before with the new models.


Ok, I didn't know if the Lumagen could pass through 48 gHz signals with 120p refresh rates.


----------



## GeorgeHolland

Erod said:


> Ok, I didn't know if the Lumagen could pass through 48 gHz signals with 120p refresh rates.


Passing 48 gHz signals with 120p refresh rates would not be working like before. Providing DTM, auto aspect control, etc. for native 4K content would work just like it works with your RS3000 and current source devices. If you want to connect a 48ghz device you would bypass the Lumagen and connect directly to a second JVC HDMI port just for that device. Likely only an issue for gamers with the latest consoles and video cards and a limited number of games. I am not a gamer so am not concerned with that and plan on using my Lumagen Pro that supports 18ghz HDMI and a DCR-J1 with an RS3100.


----------



## 99rook99

Erod said:


> So now JVC has announced their new line of laser projectors coming out in October.
> 
> They are capable of HDMI 2.1 and 4K/120Hz.
> 
> What does that mean for those with Lumagen RPs who may want to upgrade to the new JVCs?





Kris Deering said:


> Nothing. They will continue to work just like before with the new models.


I think that Erod should sell me his Lumagen cheaply, since its going to now be junk.


----------



## OzHDHT

GeorgeHolland said:


> Passing 48 gHz signals with 120p refresh rates would not be working like before. Providing DTM, auto aspect control, etc. for native 4K content would work just like it works with your RS3000 and current source devices. If you want to connect a 48ghz device you would bypass the Lumagen and connect directly to a second JVC HDMI port just for that device. Likely only an issue for gamers with the latest consoles and video cards and a limited number of games. I am not a gamer so am not concerned with that and plan on using my Lumagen Pro that supports 18ghz HDMI and a DCR-J1 with an RS3100.


The bypass method will work but getting audio to the AVP is an issue though. Not having dual outputs or an way to split HDMI 2.1 out of the PS5 is a bit of drama right now.


----------



## Karl Maga

OzHDHT said:


> The bypass method will work but getting audio to the AVP is an issue though. Not having dual outputs or an way to split HDMI 2.1 out of the PS5 is a bit of drama right now.


My intention is to connect my PS5 to my AVP which is HDMI 2.1 compliant and on to the pj from there. I’m not 100% decided on a RS4100, but leaning heavily towards it.


----------



## OzHDHT

Karl Maga said:


> My intention is to connect my PS5 to my AVP which is HDMI 2.1 compliant and on to the pj from there. I’m not 100% decided on a RS4100, but leaning heavily towards it.


Fortunate if this is case. But in mine, not possible at all. Lumagen functions in my system as the video switcher to eliminate the need to deal with my MX160's outdated video board.


----------



## GeorgeHolland

OzHDHT said:


> Fortunate if this is case. But in mine, not possible at all. Lumagen functions in my system as the video switcher to eliminate the need to deal with my MX160's outdated video board.


Another option but at the current cost of $439 buying an updated AVR could be considered. It might support 48ghz but they haven't been able to test it. 









8K VRROOM 40Gbps | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI


WORLD’S FIRST 8K VRR and HDMI 2.1 sound extractor that allows FULL AUDIO (up to receivers audio specs) from ANY external HDMI source to ANY HDMI/ARC or eARC sound system.




www.hdfury.com


----------



## OzHDHT

GeorgeHolland said:


> Another option but at the current cost of $439 buying an updated AVR could be considered. It might support 48ghz but they haven't been able to test it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8K VRROOM 40Gbps | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI
> 
> 
> WORLD’S FIRST 8K VRR and HDMI 2.1 sound extractor that allows FULL AUDIO (up to receivers audio specs) from ANY external HDMI source to ANY HDMI/ARC or eARC sound system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hdfury.com


Yeah definitely a bit of a waste of money to sort out one source's audio with the upcoming hdfury VRRROM vs the possibility of new input board on the Lumagen. Buying a new AVP in the McIntosh vein, ie a Lyngdorf MP60 (with 40Gbps board) is a very costly way to get that capability for just one input and no audio real performance gains as such over the MX160. Likewise, I've got no interest in suddenly swapping out AVP brands for a totally different room correction system (just to get HDMI 2.1), like say Dirac Live, when my preference after testing many RC systems over the years is still Room Perfect. So yeah no a great simple method for handling HDMI 2.1 audio right now. I'm willing to bet Lumagen are working on something though especially given these recent projector product launches.


----------



## Kris Deering

I can't speak for Lumagen directly but I don't think you'll see 4K120 switching added to the current Radiance Pro line anytime in the near future if at all. Likely anything that is 4K120/8K would be a new product entirely given what would need to take place not only for HDMI 2.1 switching but also processing at that bandwidth. This wouldn't be something as trivial as a change to the I/O board like most are talking about here. I also don't know if there would be anywhere near as much volume demand for something like this from Lumagen clients to make it a worthwhile investment for them. Then there is availability of HDMI chips and quality of parts (we already see LOTS of other companies having issues with 2.1).


----------



## audioguy

I struggle with the whole idea of 8K. How close would I have to sit to my screen (or TV) to even be able to detect it? While I am sure I am in the minority, HDR brought way more improvement to my eyes than did the move to 4K from 1080P.


----------



## sjschaff

Kris Deering said:


> I can't speak for Lumagen directly but I don't think you'll see 4K120 switching added to the current Radiance Pro line anytime in the near future if at all. Likely anything that is 4K120/8K would be a new product entirely given what would need to take place not only for HDMI 2.1 switching but also processing at that bandwidth. This wouldn't be something as trivial as a change to the I/O board like most are talking about here. I also don't know if there would be anywhere near as much volume demand for something like this from Lumagen clients to make it a worthwhile investment for them. Then there is availability of HDMI chips and quality of parts (we already see LOTS of other companies having issues with 2.1).


Seems that if you really, really want to use a HDMI 2.1 capable display it's most likely for gaming. It will be a long time coming for film/TV sources to venture out into the space that demands HDMI 2.1 and then the sources will require updates to get to a capable display/projector. Since there are likely to continue to be dual HDMI inputs on these, LRP will certainly have a "way into" these to ensure "backward compatibility". Which all begs the question of the why you'd want to even need to go beyond existing platforms for viewing source material, especially physical discs. Could be wrong and there will come to be a wholesale transition to 8k media.


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> I struggle with the whole idea of 8K. How close would I have to sit to my screen (or TV) to even be able to detect it? While I am sure I am in the minority, HDR brought way more improvement to my eyes than did the move to 4K from 1080P.


Just imagine the resolution of film grain! They would all be like tiny snowflake wonders!

All kidding aside, we're already seeing the limits of film on 4K. Spartacus in 4K is breathtaking in clarity, but doesn't hold a candle to documentaries shot natively in 4K. Unless it was captured digitally at 8K originally, I don't see how anyone would ever benefit from it. And even then, at the sitting distance, I would expect the difference to be marginal. For me, the biggest benefit of 4K is not so much the resolution as the addition of HDR. To each their own, of course.


----------



## OzHDHT

I guess I'm really thinking in the current Lumagen more of 4K/120 in a pass through sense than a whole new wizz bang 8K capability and all that would entail with extra processing power required for 8K video. More like adding the abilities of something like HDFury does as a standalone device to help out those device like PS5 and XBox that can utiilise it. Perhaps it is too much of a niche element for a HT focussed VP. I can't see much need at all for an 8K Lumagen for a while to come yet either.


----------



## Technology3456

bjorg said:


> Just imagine the resolution of film grain! They would all be like tiny snowflake wonders!
> 
> All kidding aside, we're already seeing the limits of film on 4K. Spartacus in 4K is breathtaking in clarity, but doesn't hold a candle to documentaries shot natively in 4K. Unless it was captured digitally at 8K originally, I don't see how anyone would ever benefit from it. And even then, at the sitting distance, I would expect the difference to be marginal. For me, the biggest benefit of 4K is not so much the resolution as the addition of HDR. To each their own, of course.


Can you explain what this means for laymen? I thought film had the equivalent revolution of like 30k or something, but if it's just the grain structure of film or something that that is the issue, then as you say they could start shooting new movies in native 8k and that would take advantage of native 8k. (Says the guy with 1080p projectors lol).


----------



## sunnya23

Technology3456 said:


> Can you explain what this means for laymen? I thought film had the equivalent revolution of like 30k or something, but if it's just the grain structure of film or something that that is the issue, then as you say they could start shooting new movies in native 8k and that would take advantage of native 8k. (Says the guy with 1080p projectors lol).


From my understanding and please someone correct me if I'm wrong. 35mm film is equivalent to something like 6k resolution. And 75mm IMAX film that Nolan uses for like Dunkirk or Dark Knight is equivalent to something like 18k resolution. But in order to see these differences you need a combination of screen size and seating distance to be able to perceive these increases in resolution. The resolution bump from 1080 to 4k wasn't so much the resolution but the implementation of HDR and a wider color gamut (bt.2020). More shadow detail in darker scenes and brighter specular highlights with imagery within the picture. The wider color gamut gives you a more accurate and life-like picture, so say you have a picture with grass and leaves on a tree, or the blue sky and the ocean within the same image, there's better separation and more accurate representation of green and blue respectively compared to the SDR image. That's my understanding of it. If anyone wants to further elaborate or correct some of this information please do.


----------



## Technology3456

sunnya23 said:


> From my understanding and please someone correct me if I'm wrong. 35mm film is equivalent to something like 6k resolution. And 75mm IMAX film that Nolan uses for like Dunkirk or Dark Knight is equivalent to something like 18k resolution. But in order to see these differences you need a combination of screen size and seating distance to be able to perceive these increases in resolution. The resolution bump from 1080 to 4k wasn't so much the resolution but the implementation of HDR and a wider color gamut (bt.2020). More shadow detail in darker scenes and brighter specular highlights with imagery within the picture. The wider color gamut gives you a more accurate and life-like picture, so say you have a picture with grass and leaves on a tree, or the blue sky and the ocean within the same image, there's better separation and more accurate representation of green and blue respectively compared to the SDR image. That's my understanding of it. If anyone wants to further elaborate or correct some of this information please do.


I think thats right actually. But if 35mm film is 6k, what is the limitation for it to look good at 4K that native 4K shot content does not have? The grain of the film itself?


----------



## bjorg

Technology3456 said:


> I think thats right actually. But if 35mm film is 6k, what is the limitation for it to look good at 4K that native 4K shot content does not have? The grain of the film itself?


Native shot content is digital. There is no distracting grain. It's just pure signal and looks incredibly sharp. However, regardless of which one you use, the focal depth, focus, and aperture all have a huge impact on the sharpness of the view field.


----------



## Die Zwei

You need a proper lens to take advantage of 8K - at least with a projector.
Most consumer projectors are already having a hard time to handle 4K in terms of sharpness. The chips are able to handle 8K, the lenses aren´t.


----------



## Technology3456

Die Zwei said:


> You need a proper lens to take advantage of 8K - at least with a projector.
> Most consumer projectors are already having a hard time to handle 4K in terms of sharpness. The chips are able to handle 8K, the lenses aren´t.


I agree for sure. People have commented that current affordable 4K projectors are not fully resolving 4K so that needs to be improved before affordable 8K projectors are worth it, and that seems to add up as far as I can tell. What I was saying is that the idea that 8K projectors will never be worthwhile because the best movies shot on film like Spartacus cannot even fully take advantage of 4K compared to nature documentaries shot with digital cameras may not hold true if they start shooting movies using 8K cameras with top quality lenses. 

In other words, whatever cameras they are using to shoot those nature documentaries right now, why don't they use those to shoot feature films? Looking at it from that perspective, anyway. Me personally, I don't know what it is, but any time I watch a movie and think, "that is one of the best movies I've ever seen," 4 times out of 5 I find out later it was shot on film, not digital. Maybe it's just coincidence, I don't know. So I have nothing against film. Now that I am moving to a bigger screen size, maybe I will feel differently because the grain will be easier to see, but I don't know that yet. If there is a way to combine the sharpness of digital with that "unknown magical X-factor" of celluloid, maybe that would be the ideal combination. I don't know if that means film with really fine grain structures, or digital cameras that are built to emulate film cameras, but just thinking out loud.


----------



## woofer

Die Zwei said:


> You need a proper lens to take advantage of 8K - at least with a projector.
> Most consumer projectors are already having a hard time to handle 4K in terms of sharpness. The chips are able to handle 8K, the lenses aren´t.



Yep, had a conversation with a "Highly Regarded" individual in the AV industry and he commented that as good as the lens on my Z1/RS4500 is, it still left a lot to be desired to "Optimally" display 4K material...


----------



## Kris Deering

I’m curious on the lens thing. The problem is we can only evaluate the lens with the projection system attached. So there is no way to know ultimately if it is the lens or the imaging chip or even the optical path that is the limitation. For all we know the lens in the 4500 would have no issue with 8K but other parts of the path would. Same goes for the other lenses. We already see how much the optical path can change things when you compare the 3000 to the 4500.


----------



## 5mark

Kris Deering said:


> I’m curious on the lens thing. The problem is we can only evaluate the lens with the projection system attached. So there is no way to know ultimately if it is the lens or the imaging chip or even the optical path that is the limitation. For all we know the lens in the 4500 would have no issue with 8K but other parts of the path would. Same goes for the other lenses. We already see how much the optical path can change things when you compare the 3000 to the 4500.


Any chance the optical path in the 4100 has improved so it will now be as sharp as the 4500?(If the answer is yes, just wink..)


----------



## bobof

If a lens is able to resolve to some extent the 4k pixel gap, which is itself much smaller than the pixel itself, then it likely could have a good go at resolving a true 8k pixel. But of course, in an eShifted projector it doesn't have to resolve anything as small as the true 8k pixel gap, as part of what it is doing is filling in the 4k pixel gaps with the overlapped 4k pixels. There will be some overlapping of the pixels too though of course, as the D-ILA fill ratio is pretty high.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> If a lens is able to resolve to some extent the 4k pixel gap, which is itself much smaller than the pixel itself, then it likely could have a good go at resolving a true 8k pixel. But of course, in an eShifted projector it doesn't have to resolve anything as small as the true 8k pixel gap, as part of what it is doing is filling in the 4k pixel gaps with the overlapped 4k pixels. There will be some overlapping of the pixels too though of course, as the D-ILA fill ratio is pretty high.


Agree. Again, even with just native 4K, any diminishing returns on pixel focus may not be a lens issue, it could be the panel or the optical block. DLP have VERY different chipsets than D-ILA when it comes to pixel fill and just plain size. But saying it is a lens limitation is difficult without a way to test the lens by itself. 

With 8K, I just don't know if it ultimately matters. The pixel density is insanely high, so honestly I don't know if it would matter if the end result was from shifting or a native chip because the resolution is so far beyond visual acuity from just about any position. What I would be more worried about are artifacts. Whether that is scaling or bandwidth issues. If we transition to 8K content delivery, that is a LOT to compress and send out for what would be ZERO benefit resolution wise. I would MUCH rather see that bandwidth used to just further improve 4K, a format that makes sense for home delivery across just about all display types and sizes.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. Again, even with just native 4K, any diminishing returns on pixel focus may not be a lens issue, it could be the panel or the optical block. DLP have VERY different chipsets than D-ILA when it comes to pixel fill and just plain size. But saying it is a lens limitation is difficult without a way to test the lens by itself.
> 
> With 8K, I just don't know if it ultimately matters. The pixel density is insanely high, so honestly I don't know if it would matter if the end result was from shifting or a native chip because the resolution is so far beyond visual acuity from just about any position. What I would be more worried about are artifacts. Whether that is scaling or bandwidth issues. If we transition to 8K content delivery, that is a LOT to compress and send out for what would be ZERO benefit resolution wise. I would MUCH rather see that bandwidth used to just further improve 4K, a format that makes sense for home delivery across just about all display types and sizes.


At 8k it would be almost Retina-screen level for me, though my screen surface for sure would be massively limiting.

I've not fully thought this through, but one interesting option to me would seem to be that you could use 8K eShift to give real half 4k pixel convergence control. I wonder if JVC will allow that.

I guess I'd be concerned in the race to 8k about "devil in the detail" matters, like internal pipelines being possibly limited in some respect that's not immediately obvious on the sales brochure (chroma sampling, bit depth) in order to accommodate the vast data rates now required to do 8k pixels - overnight we've doubled again the number of pixels above the old 8k eShift


----------



## llang269

I think my lumagen just took a dump! What does it mean when you have a green screen on all inputs?


----------



## netroamer

llang269 said:


> I think my lumagen just took a dump! What does it mean when you have a green screen on all inputs?


Try a temporary reset Menu+0999 or pull the AC and reconnect after about a minute.


----------



## steelman1991

llang269 said:


> I think my lumagen just took a dump! What does it mean when you have a green screen on all inputs?


Sounds like it. I had same issue recently and had to have the main FPGA board replaced - not a cheap repair I might add.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## llang269

Pulled the ac and reconnected and still nothing but a green screen


----------



## Clark Burk

llang269 said:


> Pulled the ac and reconnected and still nothing but a green screen


You may want to see if you can do a boot re-install of the firmware. I think I remember that helping an owner recently but not sure if it was for that issue or not.


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## EVH78

I have also had a green screen recently and I suspected one of the last firmwares to be responsible since it happened right after updating, but nobody else here seemed to have the same issue here. 
Green screen is definitely a broken FPGA.


----------



## SJHT

I just fired up my system and also had a green screen as well. Never had that before. Turning off and back on fixed it. I’m on 072821, so not the latest…. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

llang269 said:


> Pulled the ac and reconnected and still nothing but a green screen


Green screen and nothing else? Is the front panel light turning blue when you power on? If so, press MENU then 0999 and see if that helps. Is the light on the front flashing with the remote button presses? Do you get a picture if you bypass the Lumagen?


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## ht guy

Watched Rogue One with guests last night.
The Lumagen/NX7/DCR combo continues to delight.
Thank you, Jim & co!


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## llang269

Kris Deering said:


> Green screen and nothing else? Is the front panel light turning blue when you power on? If so, press MENU then 0999 and see if that helps. Is the light on the front flashing with the remote button presses? Do you get a picture if you bypass the Lumagen?


The light is blue when I turn it on. Earlier this week it was acting weird with multi color stripes on the screen and last night nothing but a green screen. I reverted back to an older firmware and that didn’t help. I’ll try the menu 0999 when I get home tonight to see if that works. Also when I was rolling back the firmware the front led was flashing when I was switching inputs


----------



## Rob Dingen

Hi,

How can I set the output to 4096x2160 with automatic refresh rate?

Rob


----------



## woofer

SJHT said:


> I just fired up my system and also had a green screen as well. Never had that before. Turning off and back on fixed it. I’m on 072821, so not the latest…. SJ


Which model ? Just had a friend here in Aus contact me with the same issue......Green screen on all inputs ..


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## Aareses

I'm going to upgrading from my JVC-RS400 to a Sony VPL-VW715ES. How much difference would I see if I added a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242++? $6,000 is almost as much as my new projector and is a lot of change! Not sure its worth it. Thoughts?

Edited with correction. I'm upgrading to a Sony VPL-VW715ES.


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## A7mad78

Aareses said:


> I'm going to upgrading from my JVC-RS400 to a Sony VPL-VW325ES. How much difference would I see if I added a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242++? $6,000 is almost as much as my new projector and is a lot of change! Not sure its worth it. Thoughts?


if HDR is ur demand adding lumagen is must for every projector in the market and become more important with low light engine it worth that device is magic 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aareses

A7mad78 said:


> if HDR is ur demand adding lumagen is must for every projector in the market and become more important with low light engine it worth that device is magic
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You would say its an essential piece of equipment? I mistyped above. I'm getting a Sony VPL-VW715ES, not the 325.


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## Die Zwei

Aareses said:


> You would say its an essential piece of equipment? I mistyped above. I'm getting a Sony VPL-VW715ES, not the 325.


Yep.


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## blake

steelman1991 said:


> Sounds like it. I had same issue recently and had to have the main FPGA board replaced - not a cheap repair I might add.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could you swap it out yourself to save money ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MDesigns

Aareses said:


> You would say its an essential piece of equipment? I mistyped above. I'm getting a Sony VPL-VW715ES, not the 325.


If you consider Lumagen just for HDR DTM, then you might be better of with some of the just new or last series(native 4K) JVC's that are equipped with a pretty good HDR DTM. Lumagen is better, but JVC comes pretty close with no extra charge and with the new ones you get laser for almost the price of lamp 715ES.


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## EVH78

I have to correct what I said above: 

"If you have a solid green screen that persists after a change to a different
revision, it is likely a FPGA hardware fail" is what Jim said....


----------



## A7mad78

Aareses said:


> You would say its an essential piece of equipment? I mistyped above. I'm getting a Sony VPL-VW715ES, not the 325.


Yes very essential 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## steelman1991

blake said:


> Could you swap it out yourself to save money ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't given that option and to be fair I didn't ask the question.


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## pixphipau

Green screen.. I had this after updating to the latest firmware. I had to reinstall the one before then install the latest, im not to sure what happened but once the new one was on properly everything was ok again.


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## SJHT

woofer said:


> Which model ? Just had a friend here in Aus contact me with the same issue......Green screen on all inputs ..


5348. Has happened only once.


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## danam

Hi, since a couple days I'm having an audio problem.
When I play HD audio (True HD or DTS HDMA) tracks, I have scratch sound, it seems to work fine when playing DD+ tracks.
I troubleshooted the problem and it comes from the Radiance Pro. I have an oppo 203 and I plugged the audio only hdmi to my pre/pro and sound works fine.

Any idea of what went wrong ? maybe the output card is KO ? nothing special happened ... I didn't use my HT a lot lately (like one movie a week) but everything worked fine before.

Thanks in advance for your help !


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## llang269

I’m going to try and roll back one firmware and reinstall the new one. If that doesn’t work, I guess I’ll be shipping it out for repair


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## mandragora

Hello all, 
I’ve finally been able to hook my 5348 to my Panasonic oled.
So I’m bow using (not simultaneously) the 2 outs of my Radiance.
My HT screen has a 2.35 aspect ratio, my oled it’s a 16.9 .
How do I setup the radiance so I can have 2 configurations one for my HT and one for the TV?

of course I should be able also to select different cms.

thanks for all the help and guidance,

take care

Ben


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## Clark Burk

llang269 said:


> I’m going to try and roll back one firmware and reinstall the new one. If that doesn’t work, I guess I’ll be shipping it out for repair


I’m just curious if you had a chance to rollback and update yet and if it worked….


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## llang269

I rolled back and updated and it’s still all green on the screens


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## Kris Deering

llang269 said:


> I rolled back and updated and it’s still all green on the screens


I'd reach out to your dealer if it is still in warranty. If they can't help directly, reach out to Lumagen support and see what your options are.


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## jrp

danam said:


> Hi, since a couple days I'm having an audio problem.
> When I play HD audio (True HD or DTS HDMA) tracks, I have scratch sound, it seems to work fine when playing DD+ tracks.
> I troubleshooted the problem and it comes from the Radiance Pro. I have an oppo 203 and I plugged the audio only hdmi to my pre/pro and sound works fine.
> 
> Any idea of what went wrong ? maybe the output card is KO ? nothing special happened ... I didn't use my HT a lot lately (like one movie a week) but everything worked fine before.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help !


I answered this in an email. For completeness here is my email:

I am sorry to tell you, but that it is okay when you take the Pro out is _not_ an indication it is the Pro. There is a _lot_ more to HDMI than mere connectivity, and I can say that in 99.999% of the issues reported, like you just did, it is _not_ the Pro at fault.

What it does come down to is a HDMI cable issue (that a cable works connecting directly does _not_ mean it will work connected to other devices like the Radiance Pro), a software update issue in another device, a setting change in another device or the Pro, a chip is failing in another device, and of course there is always the chance of an issue in the Pro (although this is almost negligible and so I doubt it is in the Pro).

Something to try:

- With wall power disconnected from all electronics, unplug, and then plug in, each end of every HDMI cable 5 or more times to clean and better form the contacts together. On the last time, wiggle the HDMI plug left and right as you press in firmly to help best seat the connection.

- HDMI cables “age” and the response curve can change (not in a good way). The cables may have been good enough new, and are now not quite good enough. An indication is if the cable audio is going bad but the Video is still good. The above unplug/re-plug trick my help this.

- I am now recommending three-meter Tributaries UHDP to make sure the cable-attenuation is “just right.” If not Tributaries ten another good three-meter 18 GHz certified cables is okay (e.g. Monoprice, AVPro Store, Metra “Vlox” or other excellent cable).

- “Scratchy” audio can actually be an EDID issue. Did you use MENU 0943 to manually tell the Radiance Pro to report “Common audio format” in the EDID back to sources.


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## jrp

We unfortunately have seen some FPGAs fail, and this shows as a solid green screen, without any video image visible.

The solid Green screen can be a hardware FPGA failure, or an update failure that prevents the correct code from loading into the FPGA, or a corrupted configuration.

If you have a solid Green screen, the first test is to do a Boot Mode Update to the current software. A Boot Mode Update is like normal update, except just before clicking Start, you remove wall power from the Pro, restore Pro power, leave the Pro _off_, and click Start.

After the update completes pull Pro power, restore power and turn on to see if this helped.

You can also try a Boot Mode Update to an earlier release.

It is also possible a Green Screen is a corrupted configuration. You can use the Lumagen Config reader to download your config to a PC even if the FPGA has failed in case it is not corrupted. Then do a Factory Reset (MENU 0999) and a Save. After this pull power and try again.

If you still have a green screen after this, then it is likely the FPGA failed. We have identified the failure in the FPGA and it is always one part of the chip. There is no external cause for this failure. We are not happy with the FPGA vendor that any FPGAs fail, but at least it is a very low percentage. This FPGA failure would be covered by our Limited Warranty during the warranty period. After the warranty period, we keep repair costs as low as we can.

For assistance with any repair, in the USA, you can contact lumagen.com support email directly. In other countries please work with your dealer.


----------



## Clark Burk

Jim, I understand the FPGA failure does not happen often fortunately, but in the event it does happen when the unit is out of warranty what are we looking at in repair costs? I’m guessing it’s a complete swap of the main board….


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Jim, I understand the FPGA failure does not happen often fortunately, but in the event it does happen when the unit is out of warranty what are we looking at in repair costs? I’m guessing it’s a complete swap of the main board….


I can't give you an answer for this as I do take age into account and I change repair pricing over time. For example for the first year after warranty expires, I charge less than my cost for the repair but this cost changes with time. Our 4242 cost went up 28% in the past two years. After that I try to prorate based on age. If it is a straight repair, even after five years I would charge just over my cost on the repair.

I also have people wanting to move to the latest chassis from their working, or non-working, Pro. I try to have the best possible price on this, but since this is an upgrade I try to make a some margin on the upgrade.

We warranty the repair for one year for the boards replaced. As always accidental damage, such as from a power surge, is not covered.

In the USA you can contact me about any repair, or any Radiance issue, at the lumagen.com support email. If you are outside the USA, you can contact me but I will likely send you to your dealer or the local distributor.

====== 

Since it is related I think it is appropriate to mention the following:

I have been getting requests for Lumagen to offer an extended (Limited) Warranty. So, I am going to offer an optional Limited Warranty extension to five years after the date the unit was shipped from Lumagen. Based on what other companies charge I decided this will be a 15% of product retail for the specific country you are in. This is not inexpensive, but if you want to avoid a possible repair charge, it can make sense.

The warranty extension would be available at time of purchase. I am also going to offer this to anyone who has a unit, purchased new, and still in warranty, as long as there has been no accidental damage. I will consider offering it to someone who has a unit out of warranty as long as the unit is proven to be fully functional. We reserve the right to have the unit sent in to us to make sure it is working before the warranty extension is granted. The end date is always five years after the shipment date from Lumagen.

As always accidental damage, such as from a power surge, is not covered.

If you have a unit already, in the USA, or Canada, you can contact me, or your dealer, to apply for the extension. In other countries you would work with your dealer.


----------



## jrp

Lumagen Radiance Pro pricing announcement:

As I mentioned in a previous post our manufacturing cost on the Radiance Pro 4242 has gone up 28% in the past two years. The manufacturing cost on the Radiance Pro 444X series has gone up more in absolute dollars, but less in percentage.

The increase comes from all aspects of our manufacturing. The FPGA price increased by 25% in 2020 (and now costs 56% more than when we introduced the Radiance Pro), many of our parts are subject to the 20% tariff on goods from China, our PCB reflow assembly cost are up about 2.5 times, and with COVID supply-side-issues, we have had to pay twice, or more, the normal price to get some of the parts we need.

We have been holding off on a price increase for as long as we could, but at this point our margin level is not acceptable on the 4XXX series. So, there will be a $500 USD retail price increase in the USA, for all 4XXX models to help mitigate this cost increase. The price in other countries is set by the distributor for that country. So contact your dealer or distributor for pricing information. The price increase goes into effect on October 1st.

Since margin, as any CFO will tell you, needs to be measured in percentage, this is not really enough from a business practice point of view, since the increase is only 6% to 8% depending on model. However, we need to balance the retail price for our customer's interests, and our margin. This increase mitigates our cost increase enough that, along with our significantly increased sales volume, we are going to have an acceptable profit margin.

The bright spot is that, since I set the retail price for the Radiance Pro 5348 in January 2021, I factored in the cost increases until that time. So I do not anticipate a retail price increase for the Radiance Pro 5348 in the near future.

We appreciate all our customers, past, present, and future. That is why I wanted to give a detailed explanation for the increase, and keep it as small as we could. One movie producer told me "the competition is not even in the same league as the Radiance Pro," but we still want to avoid absurdly expensive pricing. I hope you consider this a reasonable balance for the increase between our customers and Lumagen.

Thanks for your support and understanding.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Lumagen Radiance Pro pricing announcement:
> 
> As I mentioned in a previous post our manufacturing cost on the Radiance Pro 4242 has gone up 28% in the past two years. The manufacturing cost on the Radiance Pro 444X series has gone up more in absolute dollars, but less in percentage.
> 
> The increase comes from all aspects of our manufacturing. The FPGA price increased by 25% in 2020 (and now costs 56% more than when we introduced the Radiance Pro), many of our parts are subject to the 20% tariff on goods from China, our PCB reflow assembly cost are up about 2.5 times, and with COVID supply-side-issues, we have had to pay twice, or more, the normal price to get some of the parts we need.
> 
> We have been holding off on a price increase for as long as we could, but at this point our margin level is not acceptable on the 4XXX series. So, there will be a $500 USD retail price increase in the USA, for all 4XXX models to help mitigate this cost increase. The price in other countries is set by the distributor for that country. So contact your dealer or distributor for pricing information. The price increase goes into effect on October 1st.
> 
> Since margin, as any CFO will tell you, needs to be measured in percentage, this is not really enough from a business practice point of view, since the increase is only 6% to 8% depending on model. However, we need to balance the retail price for our customer's interests, and our margin. This increase mitigates our cost increase enough that, along with our significantly increased sales volume, we are going to have an acceptable profit margin.
> 
> The bright spot is that, since I set the retail price for the Radiance Pro 5348 in January 2021, I factored in the cost increases until that time. So I do not anticipate a retail price increase for the Radiance Pro 5348 in the near future.
> 
> We appreciate all our customers, past, present, and future. That is why I wanted to give a detailed explanation for the increase, and keep it as small as we could. One movie producer told me "the competition is not even in the same league as the Radiance Pro," but we still want to avoid absurdly expensive pricing. I hope you consider this a reasonable balance for the increase between our customers and Lumagen.
> 
> Thanks for your support and understanding.


Appreciate both your detailed explanation and the very fact that you're laying all your cards on the table. However, your profit must include the very intellectual capital you bring to the table and the very strong customer support you provide to us all. That's not covered here, and is the real reason your products meet with demand and approval in the marketplace. Few if any manufacturers are willing to share as much as you do. Would have a laugh if I asked Tim Cook of Apple to explain how/why his iPhones cost so much.


----------



## bjorg

sjschaff said:


> Appreciate both your detailed explanation and the very fact that you're laying all your cards on the table. However, your profit must include the very intellectual capital you bring to the table and the very strong customer support you provide to us all. That's not covered here, and is the real reason your products meet with demand and approval in the marketplace. Few if any manufacturers are willing to share as much as you do. Would have a laugh if I asked Tim Cook of Apple to explain how/why his iPhones cost so much.


I second that opinion. The value of the product is not just in the initial manufacturing, but the follow through by providing a great post-sales experience!


----------



## uderman

I had the FPGA fail on my previous Radiance Pro a couple of years ago. It was a pre-production beta unit so it was old and way outside the warranty period. 

I sent my unit in for a repair. I didn’t anticipate Jim would have parts to repair it because this specific model didn’t make it to production due to lack of interest during its beta run. Jim gave me a very reasonably priced repair option and even more reasonably priced upgrade option to a new unit with the latest revision parts. I was surprised Jim was able to offer repairs and replacement parts to a unit which never saw production. I ended up taking the upgrade option.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…uggggg…sync problems with temp loss of video, lots of sparkles…ok, so bad HDMI cable? Worked fine since installed mid June and then the last couple of weeks having issues…when I take Lumagen out of the loop, no issues…so sounds like Lumagen not liking my HDMI cables…

im using my AVR to switch so monitor out of AVR to input 1 of Lumagen and then output of Lumagen to RS3000…the run from the Lumagen to projector is fibre op cable approx 35 ft…the interconnecting HDMI cables are all 6-12 feet in length…

what’s the best way to debug for “the bad cable”? None are premium certified and have never given me any issues with or w/o Lumagen until a couple weeks ago with the Lumagen in the loop…Again, no issues with Lumagen out of the loop…any advice appreciated…thanks folks…

edit: it’s almost like I can get 45 min into a movie and then it starts acting up…once it starts acting up, it continues…I’d have to check but tonight it was so bad, maybe it will act up right away upon restart as its gotten progressively worse over the last couple weeks…

edit 2: if it’s a cable issue, now that I think about it only 2 cables it could be: 1) cable from AVR to Lumagen input or 2) cable from Lumagen output to projector


----------



## SJHT

Pull up the Info screen. If you can see it then the cable to the projector might be OK and the issue might be the source…. and then the other way to see if the issue is the projector cable. Also, call support. They have dealt with lots of things! SJ


----------



## Die Zwei

Just thinking loud: if it starts ok and gets worse then it could be a heat issue.


----------



## gattorodolfo

I read problems that I had not read before, they could be the latest updates. I am stopped at 62721


----------



## Jan.2000

asharma said:


> Hi folks…uggggg…sync problems with temp loss of video, lots of sparkles…ok, so bad HDMI cable? Worked fine since installed mid June and then the last couple of weeks having issues…when I take Lumagen out of the loop, no issues…so sounds like Lumagen not liking my HDMI cables…
> 
> im using my AVR to switch so monitor out of AVR to input 1 of Lumagen and then output of Lumagen to RS3000…the run from the Lumagen to projector is fibre op cable approx 35 ft…the interconnecting HDMI cables are all 6-12 feet in length…
> 
> what’s the best way to debug for “the bad cable”? None are premium certified and have never given me any issues with or w/o Lumagen until a couple weeks ago with the Lumagen in the loop…Again, no issues with Lumagen out of the loop…any advice appreciated…thanks folks…
> 
> edit: it’s almost like I can get 45 min into a movie and then it starts acting up…once it starts acting up, it continues…I’d have to check but tonight it was so bad, maybe it will act up right away upon restart as its gotten progressively worse over the last couple weeks…
> 
> edit 2: if it’s a cable issue, now that I think about it only 2 cables it could be: 1) cable from AVR to Lumagen input or 2) cable from Lumagen output to projector


Having kind of the same problem with my 4242-C and I'm already in contact with Lumagen. Right now, I'm getting a complete set of new cables.


----------



## asharma

SJHT said:


> Pull up the Info screen. If you can see it then the cable to the projector might be OK and the issue might be the source…. and then the other way to see if the issue is the projector cable. Also, call support. They have dealt with lots of things!


ok, so when the screen goes blank, pull up the info Lumagen info screen and also with source…yup, makes sense…will give it a shot



Die Zwei said:


> Just thinking loud: if it starts ok and gets worse then it could be a heat issue


Yup that’s what it kind of feels like to me also…


----------



## asharma

Jan.2000 said:


> Having kind of the same problem with my 4242-C and I'm already in contact with Lumagen. Right now, I'm getting a complete set of new cables.


Thanks, Did they have any other suggestions?


----------



## Clark Burk

For troubleshooting I would first try removing and reinserting every cable involved in the signal chain, source to the projector. Might be useful to also try source to LRP splitting video and audio. On the shorter connections it couldn’t hurt to try ordering a few certified cables from Monoprice. They are cheap enough to get just to insure your shorter connections are good. Good luck. HDMI problems can drive you crazy.


----------



## Clark Burk

Did you say you tried taking the LRP out of the loop by connecting the optical cable to the Anthem output and the issue went away? Might want to check LRP temp reading after half an hour of use.


----------



## asharma

Clark Burk said:


> Did you say you tried taking the LRP out of the loop by connecting the optical cable to the Anthem output and the issue went away? Might want to check LRP temp reading after half an hour of use.


Thanks Clark…I took the LRP out of the loop completely by totally bypassing it…where does one check the temp? A menu perhaps…


----------



## Clark Burk

Jim had this to say about temperature.......


jrp said:


> If you have the target set to 84C for the FPGA "Chip" (the default) and it gets above 84C, either there is an issue with the fan, or you have blocked some of the air vents, or the inlet air is too hot.
> 
> For 1U Radiance Pro, the inlet vent is on the bottom and must have free access to cool air. The outlet vents are on the top and must be clear of obstruction. For the past couple years 1U units have also had additional vents on the back. While these were not required I added them to reduce the static air pressure in the unit to allow the fan to run at a slower speed.
> 
> If you have the Radiance Pro 1U model in a rack Lumagen recommends a 1U gap below and above for airflow. Do not put the Radiance Pro over something that generates a lot of heat, such as a power amp. Also, do not put the Lumagen in a closed cabinet that does not have adequate airflow.
> 
> For 2U units both the inlet and outlet vents are on the back.
> 
> =====
> 
> If you have clear airflow below, behind, and above the Radiance Pro, and you still see the "Chip" temperature above 80C, then there is an issue with the fan. Some older 424X units and all 444X units must have the fan type programmed as part of our manufacturing process. There is a chance we didn't get this done with your unit. If you contact the lumagen.com support email, we can help you figure this out.


Worth checking just to be sure.


----------



## Clark Burk

Press the OK button. I think it's on the 3rd page of the info screen.


----------



## Jan.2000

asharma said:


> Thanks, Did they have any other suggestions?


Yes, there were some other points, which I needed to check beside the change of cables for any output that is connected to the Pro. Anyway, the suggestions are of course related to my specific setup. 
One thing was e.g. about the 18 GHz output, which should be set to 9 GHz for testing, but that didn't helped in my case.
Another thing is, that I might replace my 18 GHz output card to a 9 GHz output card, if the cables are also not responsible for that kind of video drop-outs.

Btw., switching the source for a moment is bringing back the picture and I could finish the movie without further drop-outs. So for my unit it's definitely no problem with temperature.


----------



## asharma

Clark Burk said:


> Press the OK button. I think it's on the 3rd page of the info screen.


Thanks, Chip temp started at 54, 20 min later now 72…will monitor…


----------



## Clark Burk

That sounds very close to what mine does. I think you can eliminate that as a possible problem.


----------



## asharma

Clark Burk said:


> That sounds very close to what mine does. I think you can eliminate that as a possible problem.


Now 75 degrees 30 min into it and no dropouts yet…this will be interesting to see what happens in another hour and see if the dropouts start as the temp gets closer to 80…

edit: 90 minutes and temp now 78 degrees, no dropouts

edit: 2.5 hours, temp 79 degrees, no drop outs yet


----------



## EVH78

asharma said:


> Now 75 degrees 30 min into it and no dropouts yet…this will be interesting to see what happens in another hour and see if the dropouts start as the temp gets closer to 80…
> 
> edit: 90 minutes and temp now 78 degrees, no dropouts


Remember that you can adjust the fan speed in the menu! I keep mine on 7.Stays around 72 in my setup.


----------



## asharma

EVH78 said:


> Remember that you can adjust the fan speed in the menu! I keep mine on 7.Stays around 72 in my setup.


Ahhhhh, good to know…thanks


----------



## asharma

EVH78 said:


> Remember that you can adjust the fan speed in the menu! I keep mine on 7.Stays around 72 in my setup.


Ok, just set fan speed to 7…when on 4 temp went to 79 degrees…chip temp down to 75 after 5 min…let’s see if this helps, I suspect it will…thanks to everyone…


----------



## thebland

asharma said:


> Now 75 degrees 30 min into it and no dropouts yet…this will be interesting to see what happens in another hour and see if the dropouts start as the temp gets closer to 80…
> 
> edit: 90 minutes and temp now 78 degrees, no dropouts
> 
> edit: 2.5 hours, temp 79 degrees, no drop outs yet


Hey Ash!
Is Chip temp the new thinking in the audio drop out realm?


----------



## asharma

thebland said:


> Hey Ash!
> Is Chip temp the new thinking in the audio drop out realm?


Hi, I was only getting video drop outs, no audio drop outs…


----------



## Clark Burk

I really don't think you had a problem with the temperature of the LRP. Temperatures in the 70's are normal. Perhaps unplugging and reinserting your HDMI cables fixed a connection issue you were having? It's maddening trying to figure HDMI issues out sometimes as they come and go often without any changes being made.


----------



## Clark Burk

EVH78 said:


> Remember that you can adjust the fan speed in the menu! I keep mine on 7.Stays around 72 in my setup.


I always prefer a cooler temp if possible. If you don't hear any fan noise from the LRP you 're good.


----------



## asharma

Clark Burk said:


> I really don't think you had a problem with the temperature of the LRP. Temperatures in the 70's are normal. Perhaps unplugging and reinserting your HDMI cables fixed a connection issue you were having? It's maddening trying to figure HDMI issues out sometimes as they come and go often without any changes being made.


Thanks Clark…you may be correct Sir…trust me I’ll circle back if this issue resurfaces…


----------



## gdfein

Those of you using C4 to control your LRP what driver are you using? Are you using the file linked on the Lumagen site to DriverCentral from developer Daily Drivers? Or is there another /better option?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## netroamer

gdfein said:


> Those of you using C4 to control your LRP what driver are you using? Are you using the file linked on the Lumagen site to DriverCentral from developer Daily Drivers? Or is there another /better option?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am using a serial driver, i believe I wrote, for my C4 system. I am to cheap to pay that kind of money to replace something that works.


----------



## gdfein

Thanks. I’m not that crafty to code my own driver. Any others?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Erod

Delete, question answered.


----------



## ahmedhaff

bobof said:


> There's no setting in the AppleTV to make it autoswitch. If you know the content is 1080p you can make a memory on the Lumagen that sets the EDID to "1080p only" which will stop the AppleTV from outputting 4K. Alternatively you would have to change the output settings on the AppleTV to 1080p/4k.


Question from this older thread: I just got the Radiance Pro and having the same issue (i.e., I want Radiance to do the upscaling instead of ATV4K). Wouldn’t it be simpler to leave the ATV4K at 1080/SDR? That way Radiance would upscale 1080 and everything above that would work as intended with Frame/Range matched. 

Wouldn’t the only difference then be that your menus, navigation (before you play any content) will also be 1080 (which I‘m not fussed about?


----------



## Die Zwei

ahmedhaff said:


> Wouldn’t the only difference then be that your menus, navigation (before you play any content) will also be 1080 (which I‘m not fussed about?


No, this would also have an impact on the choice of content since 4K content wouldn´t be shown at all.


----------



## bobof

ahmedhaff said:


> Question from this older thread: I just got the Radiance Pro and having the same issue (i.e., I want Radiance to do the upscaling instead of ATV4K). Wouldn’t it be simpler to leave the ATV4K at 1080/SDR? That way Radiance would upscale 1080 and everything above that would work as intended with Frame/Range matched.
> 
> Wouldn’t the only difference then be that your menus, navigation (before you play any content) will also be 1080 (which I‘m not fussed about?


Only if you only watch 1080p content.
These days most of the things I watch on AppleTV tend to be 4k, and it will not.switch up from 1080p to 4k if you have set it to 1080p.


----------



## bferbrache

ahmedhaff said:


> Question from this older thread: I just got the Radiance Pro and having the same issue (i.e., I want Radiance to do the upscaling instead of ATV4K). Wouldn’t it be simpler to leave the ATV4K at 1080/SDR? That way Radiance would upscale 1080 and everything above that would work as intended with Frame/Range matched.
> 
> Wouldn’t the only difference then be that your menus, navigation (before you play any content) will also be 1080 (which I‘m not fussed about?


You can use the Lumagen memories to switch the Apple TV output between 1080p and 4K. from the post below, I use Mem A for 1080p and Mem B for 4K 









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Having spent more time viewing content with 1204, I’m becoming increasingly convinced this may be the most significant updates for dynamic tone mapping in a long time. The increased headroom allows for a higher max light value, which in turn seems to help improve color saturation, It also...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## ahmedhaff

bferbrache said:


> You can use the Lumagen memories to switch the Apple TV output between 1080p and 4K. from the post below, I use Mem A for 1080p and Mem B for 4K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Having spent more time viewing content with 1204, I’m becoming increasingly convinced this may be the most significant updates for dynamic tone mapping in a long time. The increased headroom allows for a higher max light value, which in turn seems to help improve color saturation, It also...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Thanks - I’ll try that out tonight. 

My impression was that the match dynamic range would mean it would play the HDR when available and the 1080/SDR would only apply to menus etc.


----------



## MDesigns

ahmedhaff said:


> Thanks - I’ll try that out tonight.
> 
> My impression was that the match dynamic range would mean it would play the HDR when available and the 1080/SDR would only apply to menus etc.


Match range matches the dynamic range, but not resolution. For some reason apple doesn't allow that.


----------



## ahmedhaff

MDesigns said:


> Match range matches the dynamic range, but not resolution. For some reason apple doesn't allow that.


Thanks.

Lastly, when setting the resolution (4K SDR), does it matter which frame rate you use? I’ve got this on 4K SDR 24 at the moment.


----------



## MDesigns

ahmedhaff said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Lastly, when setting the resolution (4K SDR), does it matter which frame rate you use? I’ve got this on 4K SDR 24 at the moment.


The best is probably the one you watch the most, so you get less hdmi resyncs when starting films. 24hz menus is jerkier to look at than 60hz though.


----------



## HTTR17

I decided to add a lumagen and dcr lens to go with the NX7. We've been watching mainly 4k discs with the Panasonic 820, but we do watch some blu-rays. Have been just using the panasonic 820 to play the blu-rays and upscale them. 

With the lumagen coming I was thinking maybe I should use my old Oppo 103D and put it on source direct then let the lumagen upscale as I don't think the panasonic does source direct. I have a sony x800m2 I could set to source direct (if it has it) or just set it to 1080p, but not sure which would be better.

Thoughts? Seems like a good idea, as I think the lumagen scales much better?


----------



## Karl Maga

HTTR17 said:


> I decided to add a lumagen and dcr lens to go with the NX7. We've been watching mainly 4k discs with the Panasonic 820, but we do watch some blu-rays. Have been just using the panasonic 820 to play the blu-rays and upscale them.
> 
> With the lumagen coming I was thinking maybe I should use my old Oppo 103D and put it on source direct then let the lumagen upscale as I don't think the panasonic does source direct. I have a sony x800m2 I could set to source direct (if it has it) or just set it to 1080p, but not sure which would be better.
> 
> Thoughts? Seems like a good idea, as I think the lumagen scales much better?


I have a Sony X800 and it does do source direct, so that is how I play my discs. The Lumagen does a superb job upscaling as needed, no doubt that is the way to go.

You are in for a treat with the addition of the DCR lens and the Radiance Pro. I have them both (and a NX7), and we are very attached to what they add to our enjoyment.


----------



## alv

I have a similar situation and my calibrator friend indicates that the Panasonic has better chroma and luma response.


----------



## docrog

alv said:


> I have a similar situation and my calibrator friend indicates that the Panasonic has better chroma and luma response.


For HD or UHD?


----------



## Clark Burk

Panasonic players can be used they just have to be manually changed when switching between resolutions if you want the Lumagen to do the upscaling as the Panasonic players don’t have a source direct output.


----------



## docrog

Deleted


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Your statement is not correct. I own both the X700 & X800 models and they absolutely have the option to defeat/turn off 4K upscaling, making these units the equivalent of source direct for 1080p content; SD content is upscaled to 1080p by default. They do NOT need to be switched manually. The added feature is that they also play frame packing 3D without any additional manual changes. They both work flawlessly (as players) with the LRP, allowing the LRP to perform upscaling to 4K of legacy 2D content.


He said Panasonic not Sony. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> He said Panasonic not Sony.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks; post now deleted. My bad for reading & posting too quickly!


----------



## alv

Oppo won't play UHD, so not relevant. Only applies to HD.


----------



## Mark Burton

For those that haven’t seen it, my room got posted on YouTube today, nice little nod to lumagen (excuse me if you’ve seen it on another thread, doing my best to support Tony who runs the channel)


----------



## Karl Maga

Mark Burton said:


> For those that haven’t seen it, my room got posted on YouTube today, nice little nod to lumagen (excuse me if you’ve seen it on another thread, doing my best to support Tony who runs the channel)


Nice theater Mark! I admire your commitment to eliminate as many compromises as possible. No doubt its a delightful place to watch content. Well done!


----------



## Clark Burk

Great home theater Mark and a well produced video! Really amazed you fit that all in a 15’x10’ room. I think you can relax about your video processor, with the 5348 you won’t have to upgrade that for a while .


----------



## DigitalAV

Hi! I have a LRP 4446+ on the way & am looking to do some (economical) auto-calibration. I have an i1 Display Pro EODIS3, am familiar with color science and calibrations (mild enthusiast, not expert), and have used HCFR and DisplayCAL in the past.

Looks like a good option might be going with ChromaPure. They have a $429 "ChromaPure software with Advanced Auto-Calibrate Add-on" option for folks like me that already have a LRP and EODIS3:





__





ChromaPure Video Calibration Software


Video Calibration Software



www.chromapure.com





One thing I'm unsure of is the accuracy of my EODIS3, but ChromaPure offers a $199 "Recalibration of Display 3 PRO" service -- not sure exactly what this is, and if it includes a profile against a more accurate/expensive meter like an i1Pro 3, but I'm intrigued. I'm not hung up on crazy accuracy (within 90% let's say I'm fine with -- this is for a living room projector with some ambient light) and would like to avoid buying an i1Pro 3 outright.

Am I on the right track with the $429 ChromaPure/Auto-Cal plus $199 EODIS3 Recalibration? TIA!


----------



## bobof

DigitalAV said:


> Hi! I have a LRP 4446+ on the way & am looking to do some (economical) auto-calibration. I have an i1 Display Pro EODIS3, am familiar with color science and calibrations (mild enthusiast, not expert), and have used HCFR and DisplayCAL in the past.
> 
> Looks like a good option might be going with ChromaPure. They have a $429 "ChromaPure software with Advanced Auto-Calibrate Add-on" option for folks like me that already have a LRP and EODIS3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChromaPure Video Calibration Software
> 
> 
> Video Calibration Software
> 
> 
> 
> www.chromapure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I'm unsure of is the accuracy of my EODIS3, but ChromaPure offers a $199 "Recalibration of Display 3 PRO" service -- not sure exactly what this is, and if it includes a profile against a more accurate/expensive meter like an i1Pro 3, but I'm intrigued. I'm not hung up on crazy accuracy (within 90% let's say I'm fine with -- this is for a living room projector with some ambient light) and would like to avoid buying an i1Pro 3 outright.
> 
> Am I on the right track with the $429 ChromaPure/Auto-Cal plus $199 EODIS3 Recalibration? TIA!


Unless it has changed recently, I don't rate the way Chromapure generates 3DLUTs. The best practice way is to profile the display, and then build up a mathematical model of the display and map onto it the target Colourspace and gamma. Chromapure is now I believe the only software in the market that eschews this approach and instead iteratively pokes values into the LUT and tests them in an educated trial and error manner. This leads to LUTs that aren't very linear.

If your i1d3 is very old I'd probably go for a new OEM unit and a Colourspace licence. @ConnecTEDDD can sort you out with what you need.

For what it is worth, no one can recertify i1d3 units. The Chromapure process doesn't address underlying questions of accuracy or linearity in the i1d3, it is to make four colour correction matrices for the various display techs. This is external to the meter and only as good as those displays are as spectral matches to your display that you will use.


----------



## Geof

DigitalAV said:


> Hi! I have a LRP 4446+ on the way & am looking to do some (economical) auto-calibration. I have an i1 Display Pro EODIS3, am familiar with color science and calibrations (mild enthusiast, not expert), and have used HCFR and DisplayCAL in the past.
> 
> Looks like a good option might be going with ChromaPure. They have a $429 "ChromaPure software with Advanced Auto-Calibrate Add-on" option for folks like me that already have a LRP and EODIS3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChromaPure Video Calibration Software
> 
> 
> Video Calibration Software
> 
> 
> 
> www.chromapure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I'm unsure of is the accuracy of my EODIS3, but ChromaPure offers a $199 "Recalibration of Display 3 PRO" service -- not sure exactly what this is, and if it includes a profile against a more accurate/expensive meter like an i1Pro 3, but I'm intrigued. I'm not hung up on crazy accuracy (within 90% let's say I'm fine with -- this is for a living room projector with some ambient light) and would like to avoid buying an i1Pro 3 outright.
> 
> Am I on the right track with the $429 ChromaPure/Auto-Cal plus $199 EODIS3 Recalibration? TIA!





bobof said:


> Unless it has changed recently, I don't rate the way Chromapure generates 3DLUTs. The best practice way is to profile the display, and then build up a mathematical model of the display and map onto it the target Colourspace and gamma. Chromapure is now I believe the only software in the market that eschews this approach and instead iteratively pokes values into the LUT and tests them in an educated trial and error manner. This leads to LUTs that aren't very linear.
> 
> If your i1d3 is very old I'd probably go for a new OEM unit and a Colourspace licence. @ConnecTEDDD can sort you out with what you need.
> 
> For what it is worth, no one can recertify i1d3 units. The Chromapure process doesn't address underlying questions of accuracy or linearity in the i1d3, it is to make four colour correction matrices for the various display techs. This is external to the meter and only as good as those displays are as spectral matches to your display that you will use.


I agree.

I have the full fledged Chromapure package and it's fine as long as you do not rely on any Autocal function -- I've never gotten an acceptable result even just trying a greyscale and gamma Autocal and I've never even tried to use it to generate a 3D lut (I do not trust it)

Colourspace HTL is much better way to go if you have a LUT box and (and I see your getting the 4446+).

But, if you want, I'll sell my Chromapure package and i1D3 for cheap.....(assuming Tom allows me to transfer title)...


----------



## DigitalAV

Really great info, fellas. Reminds me, I did indeed check out LightSpace ZRO back when I was being let down making custom eotf static curves (upon revelation DTM is absolutely the only way to go for HDR on projectors hence selling my first born for a LRP).

Admittedly I'm being super lazy wanting auto-calibration -- my memory is terrible & I have to re-teach myself everytime I do it -- I mostly get all the concepts but doing the work doesn't come easy for me.

Thinking I'll probably do some manual calibrations using ZRO or the like to begrudgingly get back into the swing of things then hit up Ted for a proper ColourSpace HTL license & tips.

Looks like my i1d3 was made in 2010 (bought in 2018) lol -- is this still ok to at least use to profile a better meter, or should I sell & grab a new one? 

Real shame about ChromaPure.


----------



## Geof

I was a bit harsh on Chromapure - it is a fine program for manual calibrations. Autocal may work for you (it has for others). But Colourspace is fundamentally different (from Chromapure and Calman) becasue after you profile the display it uses that info to generate the chosen colorspace and gamma. Ie, there is no 12pt or 21pt point greyscale calibration - it's all part of the LUT that's generated from the profile data and your choice of colorspace and gamma.

Since you're getting a Radiance Pro your ultimate goal _should be*_ to generate a 17^3 LUT to take full advantage of the Lumagen and provide the best picture possible.
* perhaps a bad choice of words but I mean it as a suggestion...




DigitalAV said:


> Really great info, fellas. Reminds me, I did indeed check out LightSpace ZRO back when I was being let down making custom eotf static curves (upon revelation DTM is absolutely the only way to go for HDR on projectors hence selling my first born for a LRP).
> 
> Admittedly I'm being super lazy wanting auto-calibration -- my memory is terrible & I have to re-teach myself everytime I do it -- I mostly get all the concepts but doing the work doesn't come easy for me.
> 
> Thinking I'll probably do some manual calibrations using ZRO or the like to begrudgingly get back into the swing of things then hit up Ted for a proper ColourSpace HTL license & tips.
> 
> Looks like my i1d3 was made in 2010 (bought in 2018) lol -- is this still ok to at least use to profile a better meter, or should I sell & grab a new one?
> 
> Real shame about ChromaPure.


----------



## gattorodolfo

I want to make a contribution, last week I had several disconnections of the video signal, this had never happened. then I remembered the advice of jim and after turning off the system I removed and put back the output hdmi, I immediately thought to the output to the projector because the problem was evident in all sources.Well as if by magic for 3 days no problem, everything works perfectly, sorry for the imperfect translation


----------



## llang269

Being without my lumagen for almost two weeks, makes me realize how much I love this device. Patiently waiting for my replacement, I guess it gives me more time for outdoor activities. Lol


----------



## DigitalAV

Is it safe practice to leave the LRP on 24/7 or should I make sure to turn it off when not in use?


----------



## bjorg

DigitalAV said:


> Is it safe practice to leave the LRP on 24/7 or should I make sure to turn it off when not in use?


I have it on 24/7, but others recommend to turn it off, or at least switch to an inactive input.


----------



## Ediddy

Quick question I recently purchased a kscape and I noticed that during different parts of watching a movie it can blink off. I have a lumagen so I am wondering if there is a issue between the two. Sometimes the lumagen will display the aspect ratio at the bottom of the screen. It blinks off for a second and comes back on. It’s also random any help is appreciate.


----------



## jrp

Ediddy said:


> Quick question I recently purchased a kscape and I noticed that during different parts of watching a movie it can blink off. I have a lumagen so I am wondering if there is a issue between the two. Sometimes the lumagen will display the aspect ratio at the bottom of the screen. It blinks off for a second and comes back on. It’s also random any help is appreciate.


There are no known issues between the Kaleidescape Strato and Radiance Pro. We have a Strato in the Lumagen demo theater and do not have any issues. If I were estimate, we likely have over 1000 Radiance Pro customers with Strato's. Issues we have heard about (and people are very quick to report issues), are resolved with a better HDMI cable, or just reseating all the HDMI cable plugs to make sure they have the best connection possible (press in and wiggle the plug left and right to make sure the connection is seated properly).

I am now recommending 3 meter Tributaries UHDP, or 3 meter AVPro Bullet train cables. The Metra Velox 18 GHz 3 meter certified cables also are known to work well. While not my recommended cable many people like the 3 meter Monoprice 18 GHz certified cables. The Monoprice seem to be good electrically, but I do not like them mechanically speaking. I suppose this is to be expected for such an inexpensive cable. There are other good 18 GHz certified cables, but there are also cables that tend to cause issues. I often help people resolve their HDMI issues by getting them to switch to the cables noted above. So I recommend sticking with these known good cables.

In my almost daily discussions with customers I am finding that the 3 meter length provides the optimal amount of HDMI cable attenuation. That is, switching from a shorter cable to 3-meters has in many cases eliminated dropouts. I have changed my recommendation from "at least two meters" to say "at least two meters, but three meter 18 GHz certified is better." This is so there is at least the minimum amount of cable attenuation to compensate for the HDMI driver and receiver EQ present in all HDMI devices (2-meters), to an optimal amount of cable attenuation at 3-meters.

If you have any cables less than 2 meters you should change them out to two meter, or preferably three meter, 18 GHz certified cables. I recently rewired the Lumagen Demo Theater to use all 3-meter Tributaries UHDP cables for the above reasons, excepting the long run to the Projector for which I recommend either the Tributaries UHDV, or the AVPro Bullet Train, fiber cables.

NOTE: If you have an 18 GHz input on your projector, I strongly recommend _against_ buying a 48 GHz cable. The most common issue I deal with has to do with fast edge rates, and 48 GHz active fiber cables have faster output edge rates than 18 GHz active cables. I have resolved issues in a few systems now by just getting the customer to replace the 48 GHz active cable with the same brand of 18 GHz active cable.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Is it safe practice to leave the LRP on 24/7 or should I make sure to turn it off when not in use?


Lumagen recommends the Radiance Pro be put into standby when not in use.

This can help with power on since you can program your control system to power everything on in the recommended order each time. We have seen projectors not lock on well when the system is turned on when the Pro is already outputting video. When you turn the Radiance Pro on after the projector, it "kicks" the projector so it has a better chance of locking on.

The following turn on sequence is often not needed, but in general Lumagen recommends:

Turn projector/TV on
Wait for its HDMI to become active (typically 10 to 15 seconds)
Turn the Pro on
Wait for the Pro HDMI to become active (about 5 seconds)
Turn the audio processor and sources on

There are a number of source devices that seem to ignore a Hot Plug event generated by the Radiance Pro when it turns on (or changes the EDID due to some other change). These do not correctly reread the EDID after a Hot Plug event and so do not get the correct EDID if they are on before the Pro turns on and toggles Hot Plug. Examples are 3D content, and HDR content. We have seen some devices not know these are supported unless they are turned on after the Radiance Pro because they are not rereading EDID after the Pro toggles Hot Plug as they should.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

How’s the 12 bit pipeline update coming along


----------



## EVH78

DigitalAV said:


> Is it safe practice to leave the LRP on 24/7 or should I make sure to turn it off when not in use?


I hear this question among all kinds of threads and it really bugs me. These days, regarding climate change, why would you leave on ANY device while you do not need it?


----------



## DigitalAV

EVH78 said:


> I hear this question among all kinds of threads and it really bugs me. These days, regarding climate change, why would you leave on ANY device while you do not need it?


Fun at parties alert!


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> There are no known issues between the Kaleidescape Strato and Radiance Pro. We have a Strato in the Lumagen demo theater and do not have any issues. If I were estimate, we likely have over 1000 Radiance Pro customers with Strato's. Issues we have heard about (and people are very quick to report issues), are resolved with a better HDMI cable, or just reseating all the HDMI cable plugs to make sure they have the best connection possible (press in and wiggle the plug left and right to make sure the connection is seated properly).
> 
> I am now recommending 3 meter Tributaries UHDP, or 3 meter AVPro Bullet train cables. The Metra Velox 18 GHz 3 meter certified cables also are known to work well. While not my recommended cable many people like the 3 meter Monoprice 18 GHz certified cables. The Monoprice seem to be good electrically, but I do not like them mechanically speaking. I suppose this is to be expected for such an inexpensive cable. There are other good 18 GHz certified cables, but there are also cables that tend to cause issues. I often help people resolve their HDMI issues by getting them to switch to the cables noted above. So I recommend sticking with these known good cables.
> 
> In my almost daily discussions with customers I am finding that the 3 meter length provides the optimal amount of HDMI cable attenuation. That is, switching from a shorter cable to 3-meters has in many cases eliminated dropouts. I have changed my recommendation from "at least two meters" to say "at least two meters, but three meter 18 GHz certified is better." This is so there is at least the minimum amount of cable attenuation to compensate for the HDMI driver and receiver EQ present in all HDMI devices (2-meters), to an optimal amount of cable attenuation at 3-meters.
> 
> If you have any cables less than 2 meters you should change them out to two meter, or preferably three meter, 18 GHz certified cables. I recently rewired the Lumagen Demo Theater to use all 3-meter Tributaries UHDP cables for the above reasons, excepting the long run to the Projector for which I recommend either the Tributaries UHDV, or the AVPro Bullet Train, fiber cables.
> 
> NOTE: If you have an 18 GHz input on your projector, I strongly recommend _against_ buying a 48 GHz cable. The most common issue I deal with has to do with fast edge rates, and 48 GHz active fiber cables have faster output edge rates than 18 GHz active cables. I have resolved issues in a few systems now by just getting the customer to replace the 48 GHz active cable with the same brand of 18 GHz active cable.


Just had an interesting related observation -- currently using my Radiance Pro in my living room (Epson 3800 on an ALR screen), I have this chain: Oppo 203 -> LRP 18GHz output -> Epson 3800 and set LRP to the recommended YCbCr 422.

When I first installed, I could literally hear noise (almost like a distorted clicking/whistling) at my projector input and many dropouts from the Oppo 203 source (couldn't "lock on"). Physically switched to the LRP 9GHz output (and defaulted to YCbCr 420) and it immediately went away. So, I figured my Epson 3800's HDMI jacks were just too marginal and can't handle the 18GHz faster edge rate.

Upon reading Jim's updates, I switched the HDMI cable going from my Oppo 203 to the LRP from a Monoprice *3ft* Certified Premium 18Gbps cable to a Monoprice *10ft* Certified Premium 18Gbps cable I had on hand and I made sure my LRP was on before turning the Oppo 203 on, and lo and behold the 18GHz output set to YCbCr 422 now works! Counter-intuitive since both units are right next to each other and you would think a 3ft cable of the same specs would be better than a 10ft cable, but reading Jim's post made sense and it totally worked.


----------



## Kris Deering

Never ever ever ever ever use a 3ft HDMI cable


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## sjschaff

EVH78 said:


> I hear this question among all kinds of threads and it really bugs me. These days, regarding climate change, why would you leave on ANY device while you do not need it?


Interesting that in the stereo world the general recommendation is to keep certain devices on all the time for maintaining stability. These include any using clocks internally (DAC's in particular) or other devices of a digital nature, which use clocks or are susceptible to cold/warm stability concerns. In the past the issue of life of product circuits was also in play, as turning devices on and off repeatedly diminished their long term stability. Always something, I guess...


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## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> Never ever ever ever ever use a 3ft HDMI cable


3ft Monoprice Premium certifieds have worked years without a glitch from multiple sources to my Marantz AVR


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…I’m actually starting to “like” NLS…on my 115 wide 2.35, 16:9 content tends to be underwhelming from a size perspective...

is there a way to set NLS up that doesn't create as big a zoom effect? I’m using the default parameters I believe…what settings could I experiment with to lessen the zoom effect or is that part of the downside of NLS…thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

asharma said:


> Hi folks…I’m actually starting to “like” NLS…on my 115 wide 2.35, 16:9 content tends to be underwhelming from a size perspective...
> 
> is there a way to set NLS up that doesn't create as big a zoom effect? I’m using the default parameters I believe…what settings could I experiment with to lessen the zoom effect or is that part of the downside of NLS…thanks
> View attachment 3180614


Honestly, just play away with the settings and find what works best for you. As long as you don't use the SAVE function in the main menu, anything you do will not save through a power cycle. So you don't have to worry about screwing anything up. So play around with the options and find a balance that suits you and when you've hit that sweet spot, then save it.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> Honestly, just play away with the settings and find what works best for you. As long as you don't use the SAVE function in the main menu, anything you do will not save through a power cycle. So you don't have to worry about screwing anything up. So play around with the options and find a balance that suits you and when you've hit that sweet spot, then save it.


How does Lumagen's NLS stack up to the Envy's "NLS+"?

Envy NLS+ example:


----------



## jollyguy23

New to Lumagen and added one to my set up very recently from a avs forum sale. I am starting to get the hang of things and have been successful with setting my auto aspects and love it. Here is the next piece that I am trying to solve.
As recommended , my source (Apple TV and Panasonic ultra HD player) runs into my lumagen. Output 1 of lumagen goes into my denim receiver and output 2 to my JVC 4910.
Now I cannot get any of my Denon OSD like volume or even the setting menu of the denon to show up on my screen any longer. Is that because the output 1 on the lumagen by default is set to audio only?
Is there a fix for this?
I searched the forums and multiple threads seeking an answer but could not find one that helped and hence asking the question here. Any help very much appreciated.


----------



## fatherom

jollyguy23 said:


> New to Lumagen and added one to my set up very recently from a avs forum sale. I am starting to get the hang of things and have been successful with setting my auto aspects and love it. Here is the next piece that I am trying to solve.
> As recommended , my source (Apple TV and Panasonic ultra HD player) runs into my lumagen. Output 1 of lumagen goes into my denim receiver and output 2 to my JVC 4910.
> Now I cannot get any of my Denon OSD like volume or even the setting menu of the denon to show up on my screen any longer. Is that because the output 1 on the lumagen by default is set to audio only?
> Is there a fix for this?
> I searched the forums and multiple threads seeking an answer but could not find one that helped and hence asking the question here. Any help very much appreciated.


If there is no hdmi cable going from an OUT on your denon to an IN on your projector, then there is no way the Denon OSD could show up on your projector. Your lumagen is "forking" the signal, sending audio to the denon (where that signal ends) and video to your projector (where that signal ends). The Denon and your projector are no longer talking to each other.


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## asharma

Kris Deering said:


> Honestly, just play away with the settings and find what works best for you. As long as you don't use the SAVE function in the main menu, anything you do will not save through a power cycle. So you don't have to worry about screwing anything up. So play around with the options and find a balance that suits you and when you've hit that sweet spot, then save it.


Ok, tweaked…thanks…I think NLS will actually work for me…The trade off of filling a scope screen even a bit stretched vs having an underwhelming 1.85 picture on a smallish screen is sitting better with me with each viewing…great to have the option!


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## jollyguy23

fatherom said:


> If there is no hdmi cable going from an OUT on your denon to an IN on your projector, then there is no way the Denon OSD could show up on your projector. Your lumagen is "forking" the signal, sending audio to the denon (where that signal ends) and video to your projector (where that signal ends). The Denon and your projector are no longer talking to each other.


Thank you for the confirmation and this was exactly my understanding. Reading through a few threads and the guide for lumagen this was the suggested connect to put the lumagen between source and AVR. So I assume everyone using a lumagen and this set up does not have an OSD?


----------



## jbrinegar

jollyguy23 said:


> Thank you for the confirmation and this was exactly my understanding. Reading through a few threads and the guide for lumagen this was the suggested connect to put the lumagen between source and AVR. So I assume everyone using a lumagen and this set up does not have an OSD?


Not everyone 🙂. I prefer all sources running to my anthem avr, then to Lumagen, then to projector. I like having the avr osd. I haven’t had any stability issues. No issues with video quality. Experiment and see which way you prefer.


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## SJHT

DigitalAV said:


> How does Lumagen's NLS stack up to the Envy's "NLS+"?
> 
> Envy NLS+ example:
> 
> View attachment 3180656


Envy certainly has better “press releases” for it..


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## asharma

jbrinegar said:


> Not everyone 🙂. I prefer all sources running to my anthem avr, then to Lumagen, then to projector. I like having the avr osd. I haven’t had any stability issues. No issues with video quality. Experiment and see which way you prefer.


i second that…i see no issues switching with my AVR…easy peasey…


----------



## Craig Peer

jollyguy23 said:


> Thank you for the confirmation and this was exactly my understanding. Reading through a few threads and the guide for lumagen this was the suggested connect to put the lumagen between source and AVR. So I assume everyone using a lumagen and this set up does not have an OSD?


Run a second hdmi cable from your receiver to your projector. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karl Maga

jollyguy23 said:


> Thank you for the confirmation and this was exactly my understanding. Reading through a few threads and the guide for lumagen this was the suggested connect to put the lumagen between source and AVR. So I assume everyone using a lumagen and this set up does not have an OSD?


I have a HDMI cable running from my Marantz video out to the 2nd HDMI input on my JVC NX7, thus on the rare occasions when I want the Marantz OSD, I just change the input on my NX7 until I’m done with the OSD. Then I switch the NX7 input back.


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## jollyguy23

Thanks for all the suggestions. Did not even thing about other options until I read the various options here. Thank you.


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## jrp

On Radiance Pro NLS:

I went and looked at the release log for the *Vision" series. The first I see a reference in the log file says "Adds a much improved NLS (non-linear stretch mode)" for the 082305 (August 2005) release. This is the first it rated a mention in the log file. So, the first release with NLS was before this. 

The Radiance Pro NLS is very user programmable for preferences, and even works with image-based-auto-aspect. NLS utilizes the Radiance Pro's industry leading NoRing(TM) scaling. The Radiance Pro NLS is still a great feature, and has the same functionality as 16 years ago (not including use with auto-aspect). Some like NLS, and some don't, but it is available for those who do like it. The Radiance Pro NLS does exactly what it needs to do. In 16 years, we have seen no reason to make any changes for NLS (although we are considering a new control for NLS we might add after the pipeline enhancements).

Using the log release date means Lumagen video processors have had an advanced NLS function for over 16 years. Imitation _is_ the sincerest form of flattery. However, saying you are first sixteen years late is another story.

I would say our philosophy at Lumagen is "under sell, over deliver." I admit to being an engineer who prefers function over form. I try to never speak hyperbole over a basic, tried, and true feature. While every single independent objective comparison, both private and public, I know of by video experts between the Radiance Pro and anything else that claims to process video has put the Radiance Pro well in the lead, in every category, we are not standing still. For example, we continue to work on the pipeline enhancements (which I will post about in a bit).


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## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> On Radiance Pro NLS:
> 
> I went and looked at the release log for the *Vision" series. The first I see a reference in the log file says "Adds a much improved NLS (non-linear stretch mode)" for the 082305 (August 2005) release. This is the first it rated a mention in the log file. So, the first release with NLS was before this.
> 
> The Radiance Pro NLS is very user programmable for preferences, and even works with image-based-auto-aspect. NLS utilizes the Radiance Pro's industry leading NoRing(TM) scaling. The Radiance Pro NLS is still a great feature, and has the same functionality as 16 years ago (not including use with auto-aspect). Some like NLS, and some don't, but it is available for those who do like it. The Radiance Pro NLS does exactly what it needs to do. In 16 years, we have seen no reason to make any changes for NLS (although we are considering a new control for NLS we might add after the pipeline enhancements).
> 
> Using the log release date means Lumagen video processors have had an advanced NLS function for over 16 years. Imitation _is_ the sincerest form of flattery. However, saying you are first sixteen years late is another story.
> 
> I would say our philosophy at Lumagen is "under sell, over deliver." I admit to being an engineer who prefers function over form. I try to never speak hyperbole over a basic, tried, and true feature. While every single independent objective comparison, both private and public, I know of by video experts between the Radiance Pro and anything else that claims to process video has put the Radiance Pro well in the lead, in every category, we are not standing still. For example, we continue to work on the pipeline enhancements (which I will post about in a bit).


Love this (& genuinely lol'd at the sixteen years late line) and am extremely pleased with my new LRP. Was able to get it installed and doing stunning DTM (using tips from the Lumagen site and this thread) in less than an hour, truly badass stuff. Had the aforementioned odd 18GHz HDMI output glitch & the next morning a forum post with the fix magically appeared lol

Must mention -- the native image also now has a deeper, cleaner look which truly blows my mind since my chain before already looked pretty dang clean (step-down isolation transformer direct to both display and sources), but I can absolutely tell a difference (can't really explain it, as I did a factory reset and as far as I know am not really doing any added processing other than I guess everything being converted to YCbCr 422?). It is instantly noticeable just on the default Roku home screen, almost like Darbee in 4k if I were to try and describe (or maybe just a placebo? I swear it isn't but am too lazy to revert back and A/B it)

Also love that it's super low profile and quiet with all that power (ditched HTPC years ago, absolutely hated the maintenance).

Regarding NLS -- can't wait to try it & didn't mean to start The Great NLS Wars (though getting Jim fired-up to crank out better algorithms out of spite might become a new favorite hobby) -- I'll be going native scope soon (can't.. stop.. upgrading screen width) and will 100% use it for Sundays (also my screen will be curved, maybe the NLS sides' stretch effect will look even more natural 🤔 -- and will be salivating for PoP )


----------



## jrp

Random comment of the day:

For 16:9 content on a 2.35 screen the NLS center section stretch is 18%. This is noticeable, but many do not find it to be objectionable. If you are like me, this is a bit much, and that does not take into consideration the sides with even more stretch. If you agree with me, there is a middle ground.

If you like NLS, or you always want perfectly square pixels, you can stop reading here. If you are intrigued, please read on.

Rather than using NLS, use the "output aspect per input aspect" feature (Output->Style->Style0>Aspect->Output Aspect per Input Aspect) to program a modest linear stretch that to most people is not noticeable. You can pity my friends who I have used as unknowing test subjects to determine what is a reasonable horizontal stretch and what is too much.

At 18% linear I have had people note the image did not look quite right. However, when I dropped to 10% horizontal linear stretch, no one has ever commented, even when asked pointblank if they noticed anything "different." Even knowing there is a 10% horizontal stretch, I find typical content looks good. 

As an example, a 10% stretch for 16:9 content on a 2.35 screen can be achieved by telling the Radiance Pro that when the input aspect is 16:9, the output aspect is 2.13 (even though the screen really is 2.35). This uses a linear stretch (which I prefer to NLS), uses more of the screen area for a larger more immersive image, and has smaller black side-bars. You can experiment for the 16:9 input case with 2.1 for a bit more stretch, or 2.16 for a bit less.

See if you like it, or not. If you do, you can also try:

Content Programmed output aspect
4:3 2.13
16:9 2.13
1.90 2.14
2.00 2.15
2.20 2.20 (so 2.20 fills the 2.35 screen with a 7% stretch)
2.35 2.35
2.40 2.40

In addition, it is nice that this works with Image Based Auto Aspect.

====== 

Another option if you have not choosen your screen yet, and you are okay with some stretch, and a bit of side cropping for 2.35 and 2.40 content, choose a 2.1 aspect screen. I have now convinced a few people who split their time equally between 16:9 content, and movies, that a 2.1 aspect screen is a reasonable choice. Let's do the math:

Content Programmed output aspect
4:3 1.90
16:9 1.90
1.90 1.90
2.00 2.00
2.20 2.20 (about 5% vertical stretch)
2.35 2.35 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
2.40 2.40 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)

This mixes horizontal stretch, with vertical stretch and cropping of the sides. I considered a 2.1 aspect screen for the Lumagen Demo theater. However, since I am 95% movies, I went with a 2.40 Stewart StudioTek 130.

If you want to mix in NLS for the 16:9 content to fill the 2.1 screen, using auto-aspect, select "NLS when applicable," and set the output aspect to the actual 2.10 aspect ratio for 16:9 content in the output Style0 aspect menu. Then make sure to adjust the center section stretch to about 10% for the 16:9 content.

===== 

I completely understand videophiles wanting square pixels to stay square, and in fact that is how I currently have the Lumagen Demo Theater configured. However, I also understand wanting to "fill the screen" with minimal compromise and this is the reason for my post here.


----------



## jrp

Concerning the Radiance Pro Pipeline enhancements:

First, let me say we are making progress on the pipeline enhancements. Painstakingly slow progress. Patrick and I have had long discussions about exactly what we want to change so as to optimize the quality, without too long a schedule. I think we have this locked now.

Patrick is literally re-designing every section of the video pipeline. This is made much more "interesting" (recall the ancient Chinese curse) due to all the logic needed for DTM, and other features not originally planned for the Radiance Pro.

The pipeline enhancements should improve the image quality as shown below:

4k50 and 4k60 content will be visibly improved.

I believe you will also see improvement for 1080 source content output as 4k50 or 4k60. This is not from deinterlacing improvements as such (which of course does not apply to 1080p sources), but instead, improvements in the processing pipeline.

For a “fixed zoom” 2.35 or 2.40 screen setup, 4k50/4k60 16:9 content, will look better due to improved horizontal downscaling (i.e. from 3840 wide to about 2880 wide, depends on setup). I am not sure if this will be in the first pipeline enhancement release.

In the already 12-bit "back-end" pipeline section the accuracy of the math is being improved in some areas. This may, or may not, visibly affect the image quality, since the precision is already very good. However, more precision is never a bad thing. These precision improvements tend to be gate reductions (changing the calculation method), to a few extra gates. Overall, I believe they are a net gate reduction. These are things that are only being touched because everything is being reworked.

===================== 

As part of our discussions, we decided to leave the front end of the pipeline at 10-bits. The reason is in most cases this front end section only passes the (maximum 10-bit) video through. So, for these cases more than 10-bits does not improve the image. Leaving this section at 10-bit allows us to reserve gates for improvements in other areas that have a visible effect on the image.

===================== 

So, what about schedule? 

I don't give out schedules anymore since it always takes longer than I think. So, I am certainly not going to say there could be an initial pipeline enhancement release in two to three months. Nope. Not going to say that at all.


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## woofer

SJHT said:


> Envy certainly has better “press releases” for it..


Yeah !! and its also commendable as its an .............*" INDUSTRY FIRST " !!!   * That's the trouble nowadays.......just to much " BullSh*t " is often put forward as fact !


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## MDesigns

woofer said:


> Yeah !! and its also commendable as its an .............*" INDUSTRY FIRST " !!!   * That's the trouble nowadays.......just to much " BullSh*t " is often put forward as fact !


Yes, they could be more clear about what part is the industry first, since it's the vertical compression added to the lumagens horizontal stretch. Looks good in the examples though and doesn't need to stretch so much.


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## bobof

MDesigns said:


> Yes, they could be more clear about what part is the industry first, since it's the vertical compression added to the lumagens horizontal stretch. Looks good in the examples though and doesn't need to stretch so much.


I don't know, gave me as much vertigo in the demo video shared in the email as every other NLS does, maybe even a bit more. Madshi posted a couple of comparison pics and I thought they looked a bit odd around the periphery - it's almost like a fisheye lens effect.

Then again, I'm clearly not the target customer for NLS as I'm a bit fussy about minor details like square pixels!  Maybe others will find it useful.


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## MDesigns

bobof said:


> I don't know, gave me as much vertigo in the demo video shared in the email as every other NLS does, maybe even a bit more. Madshi posted a couple of comparison pics and I thought they looked a bit odd around the periphery - it's almost like a fisheye lens effect.
> 
> Then again, I'm clearly not the target customer for NLS as I'm a bit fussy about minor details like square pixels!  Maybe others will find it useful.


Yeah, I just looked at the comparison pics and thought those looked good. In video it might be another thing, but I guess there is demand for that!


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## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> Concerning the Radiance Pro Pipeline enhancements:
> 
> The pipeline enhancements should improve the image quality as shown below:
> 
> 4k50 and 4k60 content will be visibly improved.


There is no improvement planned for the 24p material with the pipeline upgrade?


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## alv

What is the pipeline upgrade? Something in the works?


----------



## Bill DePalma

jrp said:


> Another option if you have not choosen your screen yet, and you are okay with some stretch, and a bit of side cropping for 2.35 and 2.40 content, choose a 2.1 aspect screen. I have now convinced a few people who split their time equally between 16:9 content, and movies, that a 2.1 aspect screen is a reasonable choice


Jim, great to hear some love for 2.1 screens. I use one and with the Lumagen in the mix it really works well. Up until now I have just been masking the different ARs with black panels but I am interested in giving Linear stretch a try out. My first try nothing changed for me, 16x9 stayed 16x9. If I engage NLS it goes into a screen filling stretch. I assume I am doing something wrong. I will give it another try and report back.


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## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> There is no improvement planned for the 24p material with the pipeline upgrade?


The work on "pipeline enhancements" has improvements for 24 Hertz content. This is due to the improvements in precision and algorithms we are doing as part of the process of reworking everything in the Pipeline. For example, the down scaling of 16:9 content to 16:9 width on a 2.35 screen applies to 24 Hertz material as well as 60 Hertz material. I just failed to include 24 Hertz in my post (likely because I started the post using email comments I made to someone explicitly asking about 4k60). Sorry for the confusion.


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## jrp

alv said:


> What is the pipeline upgrade? Something in the works?


Yes.

I covered most of the enhancement work in two recent posts. To condense this effort into a nutshell, we have for some time been wanting to rework the processing pipeline and make it even better. This work has been on-going for a long time, but kept getting interrupted by DTM enhancements, and also some bug fixes (which were mostly, but not all, working around issues in other devices).

The work is to increase the precision of some calculations. Currently we designed the calculations to be accurate to 12-bits or more (e.g. floating point math in the DTM section). By changing the algorithms we can keep higher precision for intermediate results. So while the base "backend" pipeline remains 12-bits, there are going to be more and longer calculation-blocks of the pipeline at higher then 12-bits.

We had planned to take the front-end of the pipeline from 10-bit to 12-bits, but decided to reserve the additional gates that would have been used for this for other features. Since the front-end mostly just passes the (maximum 10-bit) data through, keeping it at 10-bits is the right size. We did not feel using extra gates in the front-end was warranted.

We are now keeping the pipeline enhancements as our top priority to get an initial pipeline-enhancement release as soon as possible.


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## jrp

MDesigns said:


> Yes, they could be more clear about what part is the industry first, since it's the vertical compression added to the Lumagen's horizontal stretch. Looks good in the examples though and doesn't need to stretch so much.


The Lumagen can do vertical compression along with NLS, but that just make the horizontal compression effectively more. One way to try this is using the "output aspect per input aspect" feature. 

==== 

We looked at doing NLS for the vertical direction back in (about) 2004.

I consider myself a videophile, and I can say to me the vertical NLS looked bad. While I am not a huge fan of the horizontal expansion NLS, I like it in some cases. Not so for vertical NLS.

Consider that for a 2.4 screen you have only 42% as many pixels vertically. That puts critical content right in the non-linear portion of the vertical NLS. Since this includes the horizontal center of the screen, where people tend to congregate, this is not a good thing. I can't imagine people who understand video liking it.

Based on our observations we dropped vertical NLS in short order as a non-starter.


----------



## jrp

Bill DePalma said:


> Jim, great to hear some love for 2.1 screens. I use one and with the Lumagen in the mix it really works well. Up until now I have just been masking the different ARs with black panels but I am interested in giving Linear stretch a try out. My first try nothing changed for me, 16x9 stayed 16x9. If I engage NLS it goes into a screen filling stretch. I assume I am doing something wrong. I will give it another try and report back.


If you have the output aspect at 2.1, the 16:9 aspect button should give you an image that is 85% of your screen width. In other words, no stretch.

If you want to try a 10% linear stretch, you need to set the output aspect for your 2.1 screen to 1.89. If you have the output aspect set to 1.89, and press 16:9, you should have (narrower) black side bars and the image should fill 93% of the screen width.

If you want to use the NLS you should set the output aspect to 2.1 to match your screen, and select a center-section-stretch of 10%.

If you want access to both the 10% linear stretch and the NLS, it is possible (but perhaps more confusing). First set the output aspect to 1.89 to be able to use the 10% linear stretch. Then set the NLS center-section-stretch to "100%." Since the 1.89 output aspect setting is 10% less than actual, it gives you a 10% stretch for the center section with this "100%" center-section-stretch setting.

If you still have questions, I would be happy to help. However, it is likely best to take this off-line. Please email the lumagen.com support email with your questions. We can switch to a phone call after that if appropriate.


----------



## woofer

jrp said:


> Based on our observations we dropped vertical NLS in short order as a non-starter.



Good decision as its like looking through a "Fish Eye Lens"..


----------



## Hoi

If I want my Oppo 205 (instead of the Lumagen) to do the 1080p to 4k upscaling, I would set the Oppo's output resolution to 4k60 instead of "Source Direct" correct? By doing this, does it mess up the Lumagen's DTM?


----------



## Clark Burk

Hoi said:


> If I want my Oppo 205 (instead of the Lumagen) to do the 1080p to 4k upscaling, I would set the Oppo's output resolution to 4k60 instead of "Source Direct" correct? By doing this, does it mess up the Lumagen's DTM?


I think you might want to try UHD Auto. If you set to 4k60 everything will be converted to that even your 4k24 material which you really don‘t want. Any reason you prefer the Oppo upscaling versus the LRP? Many here feel the Lumagen has better upscaling and set their OPPO’s to source direct. Try it and see which you prefer.


----------



## Hoi

Clark Burk said:


> I think you might want to try UHD Auto. If you set to 4k60 everything will be converted to that even your 4k24 material which you really don‘t want. Any reason you prefer the Oppo upscaling versus the LRP? Many here feel the Lumagen has better upscaling and set their OPPO’s to source direct. Try it and see which you prefer.


Yes, I meant UHD Auto (not 4k24). I don't use LRP's upscaling because I see too many artifacts/noise/halos (not sure the correct term) on all of my devices. I tried level 2 and 3 when I first got the 5348 several months ago but it's too distracting, especially on menus/still images.


----------



## Clark Burk

Hoi said:


> Yes, I meant UHD Auto (not 4k24). I don't use LRP's upscaling because I see too many artifacts/noise/halos (not sure the correct term) on all of my devices. I tried level 2 and 3 when I first got the 5348 several months ago but it's too distracting, especially on menus/still images.


Did you turn off the Darby processing?


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> Did you turn off the Darby processing?


Good Question...that could do it...


----------



## Hoi

Clark Burk said:


> Did you turn off the Darby processing?


I will check and report back. Hopefully it has been user error this whole time like always.


----------



## Hoi

I have turned on the sharpen feature to 2 and set the Oppo to source direct. I'm assuming that the H and V values should be the same? Sens should be High or is that personal preference?


----------



## Clark Burk

High is fine. Were you able to turn off the Darby? It’s only active on HD not on 4K. It’s set at 25 by default I think. That’s not a lot but if you’re sensitive to sharpening it might help.


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> We had planned to take the front-end of the pipeline from 10-bit to 12-bits, but decided to reserve the additional gates that would have been used for this for other features. Since the front-end mostly just passes the (maximum 10-bit) data through, keeping it at 10-bits is the right size. We did not feel using extra gates in the front-end was warranted.


For 4:2:2 12-bit input, is any source content actually true 12-bit or just chroma upsampled 10-bit? For 4k disc and streaming it is 10-bit, but what about gaming sources? Maybe it makes no visible difference anyway compared to all the intermediate math that really requires it.


----------



## thrang

Curious if any Apple TV owners (4k+ for me) are getting audio glitches and dropouts with tvos15 and the Radiance. Don’t have the issue in three other rooms without the radiance.

Didn’t have the issue prior, even with 15 betas

tried reinserting cables, will swap atv’s tomorrow. Latest Radiance firmware


----------



## Mike_WI

thrang said:


> Curious if any Apple TV owners (4k+ for me) are getting audio glitches and dropouts with tvos15 and the Radiance. Don’t have the issue in three other rooms without the radiance.
> 
> Didn’t have the issue prior, even with 15 betas
> 
> tried reinserting cables, will swap atv’s tomorrow. Latest Radiance firmware


No problems for me.


----------



## bjorg

I'm trying to pass 96kHz to my Trinnov via Radiance Pro, but it always downscales to 48kHz. Wondering if anyone got 96kHz content to go through their Lumagen.


----------



## Karl Maga

thrang said:


> Curious if any Apple TV owners (4k+ for me) are getting audio glitches and dropouts with tvos15 and the Radiance. Don’t have the issue in three other rooms without the radiance.
> 
> Didn’t have the issue prior, even with 15 betas
> 
> tried reinserting cables, will swap atv’s tomorrow. Latest Radiance firmware





Mike_WI said:


> No problems for me.


Same here - no dropouts on ATV 4K into LRP. I just watched a few hours this evening.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I'm trying to pass 96kHz to my Trinnov via Radiance Pro, but it always downscales to 48kHz. Wondering if anyone got 96kHz content to go through their Lumagen.


To the best of my knowledge the Radiance Pro is completely devoid of audio processing / resampling (except being able to mute audio for a short period at input changes) which means all such issues should be down to what the source is actually sending the Trinnov. The only gotcha is that the source probably only sends what the receiving device claims to support via its audio EDID; the receiving device here being the Radiance.

In some configurations (I think maybe even the default) the Radiance will pass back EDIDs to the source from an output, or even from a disconnected output. The best option I find is to set the audio EDID to be hard wired to an appropriate one. In my case, as I have Atmos, I use the COMMON EDID.

To select it, go to Input -> Options -> Audio EDID and set Format: to COMMON. Apply to all inputs and memories.

You might have to power cycle the source for it to pick this up. Maybe even at the wall depending on source (I think that applied to my old Samsung UHD player).

I'm sure it works when configured, as I am listening at the moment to 2L studios sampler from my Oppo-like player in 192k 2ch and 96k 5.1ch PCM.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> To the best of my knowledge the Radiance Pro is completely devoid of audio processing / resampling (except being able to mute audio for a short period at input changes) which means all such issues should be down to what the source is actually sending the Trinnov. The only gotcha is that the source probably only sends what the receiving device claims to support via its audio EDID; the receiving device here being the Radiance.
> 
> In some configurations (I think maybe even the default) the Radiance will pass back EDIDs to the source from an output, or even from a disconnected output. The best option I find is to set the audio EDID to be hard wired to an appropriate one. In my case, as I have Atmos, I use the COMMON EDID.
> 
> To select it, go to Input -> Options -> Audio EDID and set Format: to COMMON. Apply to all inputs and memories.
> 
> You might have to power cycle the source for it to pick this up. Maybe even at the wall depending on source (I think that applied to my old Samsung UHD player).
> 
> I'm sure it works when configured, as I am listening at the moment to 2L studios sampler from my Oppo-like player in 192k 2ch and 96k 5.1ch PCM.


Thanks for your insights. I figured it had to be EDID related. I looked that setting you shared, but didn't know what "Common" meant. HDfury has a nice interface to let you exactly specify what you want reported, but the Radiance Pro is a bit opaque in that regard.

For now, knowing you successfully pass 96kHz via the Radiance Pro is enough to help me move onto different suspects in the signal chain. Thanks!


----------



## OzHDHT

thrang said:


> Curious if any Apple TV owners (4k+ for me) are getting audio glitches and dropouts with tvos15 and the Radiance. Don’t have the issue in three other rooms without the radiance.
> 
> Didn’t have the issue prior, even with 15 betas
> 
> tried reinserting cables, will swap atv’s tomorrow. Latest Radiance firmware


Haven't been doing any viewing in the last couple of weeks. I'll have look today though.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Thanks for your insights. I figured it had to be EDID related. I looked that setting you shared, but didn't know what "Common" meant. HDfury has a nice interface to let you exactly specify what you want reported, but the Radiance Pro is a bit opaque in that regard.
> 
> For now, knowing you successfully pass 96kHz via the Radiance Pro is enough to help me move onto different suspects in the signal chain. Thanks!


What is the 96k source you are trying to use?


----------



## Hoi

Clark Burk said:


> High is fine. Were you able to turn off the Darby? It’s only active on HD not on 4K. It’s set at 25 by default I think. That’s not a lot but if you’re sensitive to sharpening it might help.


I had Darbee off the whole time. I now have the sharpening on, with H & V at 2, and Sens on high. I had it at 3 and it was too much for me. I will see if I can get used to 2.

Another question. How would I determine what value to use for Low Display Ratio? I read in the manual that the default is 31.


----------



## Sittler27

Hoi said:


> I had Darbee off the whole time. I now have the sharpening on, with H & V at 2, and Sens on high. I had it at 3 and it was too much for me. I will see if I can get used to 2.


What about Gain for Darbee? What is normally acceptable as a value? I'm currently at 20.


----------



## sjschaff

Sittler27 said:


> What about Gain for Darbee? What is normally acceptable as a value? I'm currently at 20.


Lots of opinions for this one. It's supposed to be technology that fools your eyes/brain into thinking you're seeing a more realistic and three dimensional image. Based on having 2 eyes with parallax capacity. I think if you're sensitive to the difference between a 2 dimensional flat image versus reality you might like how it works. But then again, it may give you a headache. Try it at 20-30 HD as a starting point.


----------



## Hoi

I turn off Darbee and only use sharpening at 2 for H and V. I had been turning it all off and now trying to get used to the sharpening feature.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> Jim, great to hear some love for 2.1 screens. I use one and with the Lumagen in the mix it really works well. Up until now I have just been masking the different ARs with black panels but I am interested in giving Linear stretch a try out. My first try nothing changed for me, 16x9 stayed 16x9. If I engage NLS it goes into a screen filling stretch. I assume I am doing something wrong. I will give it another try and report back.


Well it worked great but I am embarrassed to ask a rookie follow up question. I would love to have 2 independent set ups, one using the horizontal linear stretch numbers and another not using those values for films that require a more accurate display without stretching. I assume setup memories using different Style banks, 0-9, and save them in different memories A-D. Is that about it?


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> What is the 96k source you are trying to use?


I've tried playing music via Roon and FLAC files via Oppo 203. Roon connects via network, so no Lumagen in the signal path. The Oppo goes via Lumagen to Altitude. Currently neither is able to send 96kHz signal and instead down-sample it to 48.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I've tried playing music via Roon and FLAC files via Oppo 203. Roon connects via network, so no Lumagen in the signal path. The Oppo goes via Lumagen to Altitude. Currently neither is able to send 96kHz signal and instead down-sample it to 48.


Doesn't sound likely to be Lumagen related at all then if Roon is also doing it.
I don't have a Trinnov, but I note from the manual they have some quite complicated clocking options that can be set, and I guess the effect of being set to the wrong option will be sample rate conversion.
There are some other 48k related limitations too in the manual, like DTS upmixer will only work in 48k. And I've seen some devices that are limited to 48/24 on the AES digital outputs - not sure if that is the case here for Trinnov, or affects your DAD+Dante setup.

Anyway, doesn't sound Lumagen related, until the point in time you get the Roon to work.


----------



## EVH78

I hope one day the audio menu will be enabled and that the radiance will be able to display current sound formats / informations.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> Well it worked great but I am embarrassed to ask a rookie follow up question. I would love to have 2 independent set ups, one using the horizontal linear stretch numbers and another not using those values for films that require a more accurate display without stretching. I assume setup memories using different Style banks, 0-9, and save them in different memories A-D. Is that about it?


Thanks, problem solved


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> I hope one day the audio menu will be enabled and that the radiance will be able to display current sound formats / informations.


Without becoming licensees of all the various surround formats, there is limited information you could display about the detail of what the audio actually is. There are some (slightly cryptic) bits of information in the info pages.

Better off getting this information from the audio decoder in the AVR/P, which should be able to provide detailed information for all the supported formats. If you want, you can then display it on the Lumagen OSD via a control system integration. The Monoprice HTP1 is one device that provides such info. I had previously done some with NAD devices too, though the information there is more limited.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> Doesn't sound likely to be Lumagen related at all then if Roon is also doing it.
> I don't have a Trinnov, but I note from the manual they have some quite complicated clocking options that can be set, and I guess the effect of being set to the wrong option will be sample rate conversion.
> There are some other 48k related limitations too in the manual, like DTS upmixer will only work in 48k. And I've seen some devices that are limited to 48/24 on the AES digital outputs - not sure if that is the case here for Trinnov, or affects your DAD+Dante setup.
> 
> Anyway, doesn't sound Lumagen related, until the point in time you get the Roon to work.


Agreed. I'm just pursuing all angles. It's likely the same root cause, but it's also possible that it might be 2 separate issues.


----------



## Kurvenal

bjorg said:


> I've tried playing music via Roon and FLAC files via Oppo 203. Roon connects via network, so no Lumagen in the signal path. The Oppo goes via Lumagen to Altitude. Currently neither is able to send 96kHz signal and instead down-sample it to 48.


I use Roon with an Altitude32, and can confirm that I have no issues playing either 96kHz or 192kHz content with Roon or on Pure Audio Blu-ray discs with my Sony Blu-ray player. Have you checked your signal path in Roon to see what that is telling you?

FYI, I also use Roon to play multi-channel FLAC files stored on a NAS that are automatically imported into my Roon music library, which also works well at 96kHZ or 192kHz. Just recently I confirmed that I can use Roon to play Auro-3D 11.1 content embedded in a FLAC file @96kHz through the Altitude, but you need to make sure that you have the Altitude channel mapping set to 7.1 in Device Setup. Playing Auro-3D 9.1 content embedded in FLAC file works fine with channel mapping set to 5.1.


----------



## bjorg

Kurvenal said:


> I use Roon with an Altitude32, and can confirm that I have no issues playing either 96kHz or 192kHz content with Roon or on Pure Audio Blu-ray discs with my Sony Blu-ray player. Have you checked your signal path in Roon to see what that is telling you?
> 
> FYI, I also use Roon to play multi-channel FLAC files stored on a NAS that are automatically imported into my Roon music library, which also works well at 96kHZ or 192kHz. Just recently I confirmed that I can use Roon to play Auro-3D 11.1 content embedded in a FLAC file @96kHz through the Altitude, but you need to make sure that you have the Altitude channel mapping set to 7.1 in Device Setup. Playing Auro-3D 9.1 content embedded in FLAC file works fine with channel mapping set to 5.1.


Do you use "native" for upmixing in the Altitude? I have a support call setup for Thursday with Trinnov. Seems everyone is at a loss why I'm stuck at 48kHz. I'll report back when I find out more, but if anyone has any suggestions on things to try out, I'm all ears!


----------



## Kurvenal

bjorg said:


> Do you use "native" for upmixing in the Altitude? I have a support call setup for Thursday with Trinnov. Seems everyone is at a loss why I'm stuck at 48kHz. I'll report back when I find out more, but if anyone has any suggestions on things to try out, I'm all ears!


My experience is that you should use the ”Native” Listening Format when you do NOT want to use any of the upmixers in the Altitude. But I think this is a separate issue from your original question on why you seem to experience downsampling to 48kHz? 

Have you posted your question in the Trinnov User’s Forum?


----------



## jrp

Bill DePalma said:


> Well it worked great but I am embarrassed to ask a rookie follow up question. I would love to have 2 independent set ups, one using the horizontal linear stretch numbers and another not using those values for films that require a more accurate display without stretching. I assume setup memories using different Style banks, 0-9, and save them in different memories A-D. Is that about it?


You can use the Output Setup Menu to point, say, MEMB to a different Style (say Style1). Then you can select MEMB, and set up Style 1 differently than Style 0. You then select either MEMA for your current setup or MEMB for the new one you generate. Save your changes.

You can send an email to the lumagen.com support email if you need help.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> Do you use "native" for upmixing in the Altitude? I have a support call setup for Thursday with Trinnov. Seems everyone is at a loss why I'm stuck at 48kHz. I'll report back when I find out more, but if anyone has any suggestions on things to try out, I'm all ears!


If you use the audio manual EDID command MENU 0943, and press OK if it says "Press OK to Enable Common Audio Formats" the Radiance Pro reports all normal HDMI audio formats. back to sources Save your change.

There are newer four-digit commands for audio EDID, but I typically use MENU 0943. The commands are in the back of the manual under "Direct Commands." There is also an audio EDID control in the Input menu under Options then under HDMI setup, and then under Audio EDID.

Once you do this, you should get all the audio formats. If not it would be a puzzle and you can email the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> I hope one day the audio menu will be enabled and that the radiance will be able to display current sound formats / information.


The Pro does not have a way to decode the audio stream to know the format except for some basic information, which is available on Info Pg 3.

The Pro can only determine if the audio uses one HDMI signal path or all four. Single signal path formats include 2 channel PCM, DD 5.1 and 7.1, and DTS. The four signal path formats include 7.1 PCM, DD TrueHD/ATMOS, and DTS Master Audio.

If the source sends the HDMI "2 channel PCM" info frame flag the Pro reports that, but not all do.

The audio processor is the best place to determine the audio format that is being sent.


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> For 4:2:2 12-bit input, is any source content actually true 12-bit or just chroma up-sampled 10-bit? For 4k disc and streaming it is 10-bit, but what about gaming sources? Maybe it makes no visible difference anyway compared to all the intermediate math that really requires it.


Good question.

As you note the consumer sources the Pro supports are a maximum 10-bits (HDR). 

A game could output true 12-bit 4:2:2, but I suspect the rendering accuracy is likely 8-bits per RGB channel. I do not know what is currently being done though. So, if someone does, please let us know.


----------



## jrp

Hoi said:


> ... Another question. How would I determine what value to use for Low Display Ratio? I read in the manual that the default is 31.


If you set the Display Max Light to 5 to 6 times the measured Max Light from the projector the default of 31 is likely optimal for the "Low Ratio."

I actually prefer to use content to set Max Light and the Low Ratio.

For Max Light I use "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:09:00. In the HDR Parameter menu adjust Max Light to trade-off brightness and flesh tone accuracy. 

For Low Ratio I use the Revenant at 20:00 where the trapper's son is laying by a tree pre-dawn. Adjust Low Ratio so you can see the son's shirt, and the bark on the tree, but just barely. This scene is supposed to be very dark (the maximum brightness is about 7 nits). So, be careful to not make it brighter than it should be. Note that if you have a projector that does not have excellent contrast this scene can look a bit washed out. It looks excellent on the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. So, this scene turns out to be a good test of your projector's black level ability.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> If you set the Display Max Light to 5 to 6 times the measured Max Light from the projector the default of 31 is likely optimal for the "Low Ratio."
> 
> I actually prefer to use content to set Max Light and the Low Ratio.
> 
> For Max Light I use "The Meg" at 1:08:00 to 1:09:00. In the HDR Parameter menu adjust Max Light to trade-off brightness and flesh tone accuracy.
> 
> For Low Ratio I use the Revenant at 20:00 where the trapper's son is laying by a tree pre-dawn. Adjust Low Ratio so you can see the son's shirt, and the bark on the tree, but just barely. This scene is supposed to be very dark (the maximum brightness is about 7 nits). So, be careful to not make it brighter than it should be. Note that if you have a projector that does not have excellent contrast this scene can look a bit washed out. It looks excellent on the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500. So, this scene turns out to be a good test of your projector's black level ability.


I prepared a script for Kaleidescape systems to make it easy to keep looping through those scenes to adjust the DTM settings.


----------



## ahmedhaff

bferbrache said:


> You can use the Lumagen memories to switch the Apple TV output between 1080p and 4K. from the post below, I use Mem A for 1080p and Mem B for 4K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Having spent more time viewing content with 1204, I’m becoming increasingly convinced this may be the most significant updates for dynamic tone mapping in a long time. The increased headroom allows for a higher max light value, which in turn seems to help improve color saturation, It also...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


So I tried this, but unfortunately it did not work. The incoming signal at the input is still showing 3840x2160 and Darbee is not engaged, so the Apple TV is still sending an upscale signal. And it doesn’t look great at all. 

I had a Fire TV $k stick lying around so I connected that to one of the inputs (and limited its resolution to 1080) and that seems to works fine. It works and I’m now using that for streaming 1080p content, but I’d have much preferred to use the ATV for it.


----------



## bferbrache

ahmedhaff said:


> So I tried this, but unfortunately it did not work. The incoming signal at the input is still showing 3840x2160 and Darbee is not engaged, so the Apple TV is still sending an upscale signal. And it doesn’t look great at all.
> 
> I had a Fire TV $k stick lying around so I connected that to one of the inputs (and limited its resolution to 1080) and that seems to works fine. It works and I’m now using that for streaming 1080p content, but I’d have much preferred to use the ATV for it.


Did you follow the instructions in the link below? It should work fine









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so. ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## bferbrache

bferbrache said:


> Did you follow the instructions in the link below? It should work fine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so. ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Or this link









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hello Jim, at first thank you for including the DTM from me also. I have a very deeply 20" curved V6 screen 150" wide and really like the old 70 mm movies etc. I know its a bit early for X was wishes, but can I ask you again: if its possible to include WARPING into the Pro ? sometimes ? Only...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## bobof

ahmedhaff said:


> So I tried this, but unfortunately it did not work. The incoming signal at the input is still showing 3840x2160 and Darbee is not engaged, so the Apple TV is still sending an upscale signal. And it doesn’t look great at all.


This does work, so it would look like you may not have set the EDID correctly for the memory.
Start in MemA.
With the AppleTV selected, press enter to bring up the Lumagen OSD to show it is set to 3840x2160. Press exit.
Press Menu -> Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Video EDID -> VIdeo Limit -> change to 1080. Press OK. You should see an HDMI resync, and if you check the info screen again it will perhaps be in 1080p HDR mode (as that is what AppleTV defaults to.
Press MemB.
Assuming MemB is using default EDID, the AppleTV should switch back to 4K output.

If that all works as you want, you'll need to save config in the Lumagen.

I've just checked the above works (as it's not the way I use my AppleTV), and it does work as described.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> This does work, so it would look like you may not have set the EDID correctly for the memory.
> Start in MemA.
> With the AppleTV selected, press enter to bring up the Lumagen OSD to show it is set to 3840x2160. Press exit.
> Press Menu -> Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Video EDID -> VIdeo Limit -> change to 1080. Press OK. You should see an HDMI resync, and if you check the info screen again it will perhaps be in 1080p HDR mode (as that is what AppleTV defaults to.
> Press MemB.
> Assuming MemB is using default EDID, the AppleTV should switch back to 4K output.
> 
> If that all works as you want, you'll need to save config in the Lumagen.
> 
> I've just checked the above works (as it's not the way I use my AppleTV), and it does work as described.


I was able to set up a memory for forcing 1080p by essentially following your guidelines. I haven't tried it yet with my ATV4K, but it works perfectly with my Roku Ultra when the display setting is on "auto detect". I can now remove the separate 1080p Roku stick from my system. Most excellent! Thanks


----------



## dlinsley

docrog said:


> Is it necessary to return to MemA after making the changes (to be saved in MemB) in order to reinstate MemA to the original Video EDID (4K) prior to making the universal save? If there is an unused physical Mem button on the remote, would it work to copy MemA to that button and begin the EDID change there, followed by universal save?


No need to return before save, and you can also do the copy A to B, C or D and then edit there. That is what I did (copy A to all and then make B 1080p, Save). I have my Harmony Elite color buttons set to left most Mem A, then B and the right most the Ok button to bring up the debug/status info, and it works well when I remember to switch 

The Pro also seems to remember what memory you were in across standby/wake, though I've not looked to see if there is a way to go to MemA always on wake (which would be ideal as we watch more 4K content on the AppleTV than not).


----------



## bferbrache

dlinsley said:


> No need to return before save, and you can also do the copy A to B, C or D and then edit there. That is what I did (copy A to all and then make B 1080p, Save). I have my Harmony Elite color buttons set to left most Mem A, then B and the right most the Ok button to bring up the debug/status info, and it works well when I remember to switch
> 
> The Pro also seems to remember what memory you were in across standby/wake, though I've not looked to see if there is a way to go to MemA always on wake (which would be ideal as we watch more 4K content on the AppleTV than not).


I have programmed different sequences so my harmony elite will start with mem A or mem B and have 2 different icons with 1080p or 4K on the home screen. I also have added a 'mem A' step to the shutdown sequence, this means the Radiance always starts with mem A regardless of the input chosen. 
Cheers 
Brian


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> The audio processor is the best place to determine the audio format that is being sent.


I know but unfortunately the audio processor is in another room and I have no OSD since all of my sources run directly into the Lumagen. Therefore I wished the radiance could display sound formats.


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> I know but unfortunately the audio processor is in another room and I have no OSD since all of my sources run directly into the Lumagen. Therefore I wished the radiance could display sound formats.


What audio processor is it? It's really a control system job, with each job being done in the right place and brought together. As I say, it's not that big a deal with many audio processors to get details of the format being received and decoded, and it's also pretty trivial to display custom text on the OSD of the Radiance. Putting the two together is something that can be achieved pretty simply.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I was able to set up a memory for forcing 1080p by essentially following your guidelines. I haven't tried it yet with my ATV4K, but it works perfectly with my Roku Ultra when the display setting is on "auto detect". I can now remove the separate 1080p Roku stick from my system. Most excellent! Thanks


Cool, glad it helped, though my "instructions" weren't really a full guide to setting this up in the best way necessarily, more a quick "try this to see if it does what it should". If you were setting it up fully you might, for instance, choose to rename the inputs in the respective memories so they indicated the device and max resolution (by default they have names like Input1A and Input1B, you could have ATV1080p and ATV4K).

The AppleTV is quite cute in the way it deals with different EDIDs it has seen. I think it will store a couple (or more) of different output settings groups for different EDIDs it has seen on its outputs.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Cool, glad it helped, though my "instructions" weren't really a full guide to setting this up in the best way necessarily, more a quick "try this to see if it does what it should". If you were setting it up fully you might, for instance, choose to rename the inputs in the respective memories so they indicated the device and max resolution (by default they have names like Input1A and Input1B, you could have ATV1080p and ATV4K). The AppleTV is quite cute in the way it deals with different EDIDs it has seen. I think it will store a couple (or more) of different output settings groups for different EDIDs it has seen on its outputs.


I only utilize 1 physical HDMI RP input since I use the Denon 6700 as my switching device (RP after AVR), so the newly defined memory functions as a universal 1080p EDID for *BOTH* the Roku Ultra & ATV4K. I renamed the newly created memory as "For 1080p" last night prior to saving the new configuration. I use a Sony player (with 4K upscaling disabled) for all physical media content, so there's no need for me to use the new memory for DVD/Blu-Ray unless I someday change to a different player which automatically upscales to 4K (such as the Panasonics) when seeing the EDID for that capability in the NX7. 

A great feature would be if the RP could be programmed to automatically switch to the specific EDID's memory (1080p or 4K) when receiving different resolutions, eliminating the need to physically manipulate the remote.

Many thanks, again, for your assistance!


----------



## SJHT

EVH78 said:


> I know but unfortunately the audio processor is in another room and I have no OSD since all of my sources run directly into the Lumagen. Therefore I wished the radiance could display sound formats.


There are several control systems that can display audio formats on your remote. Maybe an option for you. SJ


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I only utilize 1 physical HDMI RP input since I use the Denon 6700 as my switching device (RP after AVR), so the newly defined memory functions as a universal 1080p EDID for *BOTH* the Roku Ultra & ATV4K.


Glad it worked out then, as some receivers don't follow well the changes to what is effectively their display EDID past their initial startup. I recall my old NAD 758V3 was sketchy in this area.



docrog said:


> A great feature would be if the RP could be programmed to automatically switch to the specific EDID's memory (1080p or 4K) when receiving different resolutions, eliminating the need to physically manipulate the remote.


That doesn't really make any sense. It has to be an external choice, either from the user, or you would have to have some control system input from the player that knew the content original resolution was 1080p. Once the player is set to upscale, there is no remnant of the fact that the original source was 1080p for the Radiance to be able to decide to change the EDID to 1080p! And likewise, once the player is set to 1080p it will never indicate the content is 4K over HDMI.


----------



## Die Zwei

Deleted, wrong thread.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> That doesn't really make any sense. It has to be an external choice, either from the user, or you would have to have some control system input from the player that knew the content original resolution was 1080p. Once the player is set to upscale, there is no remnant of the fact that the original source was 1080p for the Radiance to be able to decide to change the EDID to 1080p! And likewise, once the player is set to 1080p it will never indicate the content is 4K over HDMI.


Good points. I hadn't taken into account that the media players would be sending upscaled content to the RP if the equivalent of the display's video EDID wasn't already being physically limited.


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> ... The Pro also seems to remember what memory you were in across standby/wake, though I've not looked to see if there is a way to go to MemA always on wake (which would be ideal as we watch more 4K content on the AppleTV than not).


You can program the Pro to always come out of standby, and/or initial power on, to a specific input, and a specific input memory. You do this in the Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select menu. Save your change.

I recommend that in this same menu you program the Pro to delay the initial input select. This additional one time at power on input select delay can help when sources are in "Zombie" mode.


----------



## HTTR17

Is there an option in the menu to turn off the blue led light when it's on?


----------



## sjschaff

HTTR17 said:


> Is there an option in the menu to turn off the blue led light when it's on?


*Setup *


Controls the operation of the Blue LED on the front panel. The LED can be set to “Blue” to be a power on indicator or set to “Dark” so that it is off when the Radiance is operating. The command is: 


*MENU *→ *Other*→ *I/O Setup *→ *LED Setup *→ *(Blue, Dark)

p.s. Have you considered downloading the LRP manual from the Lumagen website?*


----------



## HTTR17

sjschaff said:


> *Setup *
> 
> 
> Controls the operation of the Blue LED on the front panel. The LED can be set to “Blue” to be a power on indicator or set to “Dark” so that it is off when the Radiance is operating. The command is:
> 
> 
> *MENU *→ *Other*→ *I/O Setup *→ *LED Setup *→ *(Blue, Dark)
> 
> p.s. Have you considered downloading the LRP manual from the Lumagen website?*


Thanks, and sorry I should have looked in the manual.


----------



## ahmedhaff

bobof said:


> This does work, so it would look like you may not have set the EDID correctly for the memory.
> Start in MemA.
> With the AppleTV selected, press enter to bring up the Lumagen OSD to show it is set to 3840x2160. Press exit.
> Press Menu -> Input -> Options -> HDMI Setup -> Video EDID -> VIdeo Limit -> change to 1080. Press OK. You should see an HDMI resync, and if you check the info screen again it will perhaps be in 1080p HDR mode (as that is what AppleTV defaults to.
> Press MemB.
> Assuming MemB is using default EDID, the AppleTV should switch back to 4K output.
> 
> If that all works as you want, you'll need to save config in the Lumagen.
> 
> I've just checked the above works (as it's not the way I use my AppleTV), and it does work as described.


Thanks. I apologize, should have been clearer - I did get it to work, but it’s behaving erratically (tried again last night, same thing). Works the first time I hit memB, but if I switch to memA and then back to memB the frame rate changes from 60 to 24 and the input format is always showing HDR/2020. When I watch the same show on the Fire TV (which is capped to 1080), input shows 1080 and SDR/709 (correctly).


----------



## bobof

ahmedhaff said:


> Thanks. I apologize, should have been clearer - I did get it to work, but it’s behaving erratically (tried again last night, same thing). Works the first time I hit memB, but if I switch to memA and then back to memB the frame rate changes from 60 to 24 and the input format is always showing HDR/2020. When I watch the same show on the Fire TV (which is capped to 1080), input shows 1080 and SDR/709 (correctly).


I think it usually remembers two different sets of settings for the two different EDIDs, which means you have to go through the menus on each option to set it up as you like. You will make it more reliable also if you set the input up to have fixed audio EDIDs instead of the passback behaviour.

Good luck!


----------



## ahmedhaff

bobof said:


> I think it usually remembers two different sets of settings for the two different EDIDs, which means you have to go through the menus on each option to set it up as you like. You will make it more reliable also if you set the input up to have fixed audio EDIDs instead of the passback behaviour.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks. I’ll play around with this tomorrow.


----------



## HTTR17

When using the lumagen for hdr and starting or pausing a UHD movie on the Panasonic 820. 

When watching a 4k disc on the panasonic ub820.

I've noticed the little grey box with white writing that pops up in the lower corner. Shows overblown basically just white. The hdr theater optimizer is off in the Panasonic. This didn't happen before I got the lumagen and used the jvc dtm. 

Anyone else notice this and it's just a normal quirk? Or possibly I have a setting wrong?

Thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

I recommend turning any and all indicator OSD stuff in a player off. It can throw off the tone map because the Radiance doesn't know if it is in the content or player generated. This is one of the features I love the most with the Oppo, the ability to turn off ALL on screen indications.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I recommend turning any and all indicator OSD stuff in a player off. It can throw off the tone map because the Radiance doesn't know if it is in the content or player generated. This is one of the features I love the most with the Oppo, the ability to turn off ALL on screen indications.


They missed at least one - the yellow text on MKV playback chapter skips, bottom left, just long enough to trigger auto aspect grrr...


----------



## Bill DePalma

I have an odd problem. I have an HDDVD player I am trying to use through my Marantz/Lumagen/JVC Projector. I use the Marantz as the input switcher with the Lumagen at the tail end to see the Marantz GUI. I do not get an image on my screen from the JVC UNLESS I also send a signal from the extra HDMI monitor output port on the Marantz to a 1080 monitor, then I get an image on my screen. If I turn off the monitor or unplug the extra HDMI out from the Marantz my screen goes blank. This only occurs with the HDDVD player, all other inputs work fine including a Zappiti, a Panasonic 820, an ATV, and a Laserdisc player. Any thoughts?


----------



## OzHDHT

I've notice a weird quirk with power and the Lumagen. I first noticed it a month or so ago. What's occurring is if they power gets cut from the Radiance directly, like the the power conditioner unit it's connected to is shut off, upon powering back up, no matter what I, I can't get any source's video back up. No amount of powering off and on with the remote will work afterwards, it just shows a black screen in the correct output mode but no video. What I've ended up doing in both cases is go through the software update process for my remotely accessible PC and it once that's done and you fire the unit back up, it's fine again. Bit of a head scratcher.


----------



## GerryWaz

OzHDHT said:


> I've notice a weird quirk with power and the Lumagen. I first noticed it a month or so ago. What's occurring is if they power gets cut from the Radiance directly, like the the power conditioner unit it's connected to is shut off, upon powering back up, no matter what I, I can't get any source's video back up. No amount of powering off and on with the remote will work afterwards, it just shows a black screen in the correct output mode but no video. What I've ended up doing in both cases is go through the software update process for my remotely accessible PC and it once that's done and you fire the unit back up, it's fine again. Bit of a head scratcher.


Did you try removing the power cord from the unit for 10-20 minutes? That sometimes works also, if I remember right.


----------



## OzHDHT

GerryWaz said:


> Did you try removing the power cord from the unit for 10-20 minutes? That sometimes works also, if I remember right.


Yeah no. I wasn't in the mood to lose more time waiting, and tbh didn't think that would have done a lot. I'd just spent a lot longer going over some test material to double check I was still happy with my DTM setting than I wanted to having started at 8pm. A minor bit of audio crackle started coming into my main channels randomly when I was about to check some material on UHD disc, so I powered down my Isotek that runs my amps and the lumagen thinking nothing of it. However, when I powered it back up same scenario with the Lumagen again. By time I'd done the software update, I noted it was already 10:30pm and wasn't happy since it was my first time to sit in the HT I'd had for 2 weeks.


----------



## aguy

OzHDHT said:


> Yeah no. I wasn't in the mood to lose more time waiting, and tbh didn't think that would have done a lot. I'd just spent a lot longer going over some test material to double check I was still happy with my DTM setting than I wanted to having started at 8pm. A minor bit of audio crackle started coming into my main channels randomly when I was about to check some material on UHD disc, so I powered down my Isotek that runs my amps and the lumagen thinking nothing of it. However, when I powered it back up same scenario with the Lumagen again. By time I'd done the software update, I noted it was already 10:30pm and wasn't happy since it was my first time to sit in the HT I'd had for 2 weeks.


I think that is one best emailed to lumagen support. 

I haven’t noticed it. I’ve had the opposite where the unit would lock up mid use ( turned out to be a firmware bug in response to a certain rs232 command ) and the only thing that fixed it was removing the power completely and then rebooting. Jim was great with that bug report and it’s been fixed a few firmware updates ago 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

OzHDHT said:


> I've notice a weird quirk with power and the Lumagen. I first noticed it a month or so ago. What's occurring is if they power gets cut from the Radiance directly, like the the power conditioner unit it's connected to is shut off, upon powering back up, no matter what I, I can't get any source's video back up. No amount of powering off and on with the remote will work afterwards, it just shows a black screen in the correct output mode but no video. What I've ended up doing in both cases is go through the software update process for my remotely accessible PC and it once that's done and you fire the unit back up, it's fine again. Bit of a head scratcher.


My system cuts the power to the unit all of the time. Never had an issue, so maybe related to something else?


----------



## docrog

SJHT said:


> My system cuts the power to the unit all of the time. Never had an issue, so maybe related to something else?


+1


----------



## OzHDHT

SJHT said:


> My system cuts the power to the unit all of the time. Never had an issue, so maybe related to something else?





docrog said:


> +1


Ok interesting. Really hoping it's not something to do with the new Linear power supply since the time I swapped it in was the first time I had the issue, but right now it's starting to look that way.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> They missed at least one - the yellow text on MKV playback chapter skips, bottom left, just long enough to trigger auto aspect grrr...


yeah, that bugs me too. I asked Oppo about it back in the day but I think it was something that couldn’t be turned off.


----------



## dlinsley

Bill DePalma said:


> I have an odd problem. I have an HDDVD player I am trying to use through my Marantz/Lumagen/JVC Projector. I use the Marantz as the input switcher with the Lumagen at the tail end to see the Marantz GUI. I do not get an image on my screen from the JVC UNLESS I also send a signal from the extra HDMI monitor output port on the Marantz to a 1080 monitor, then I get an image on my screen. If I turn off the monitor or unplug the extra HDMI out from the Marantz my screen goes blank. This only occurs with the HDDVD player, all other inputs work fine including a Zappiti, a Panasonic 820, an ATV, and a Laserdisc player. Any thoughts?


My Toshiba A35 did not like being plugged into a HDMI 2.0 receiver / chain without the following fix. The > 1080p EDID just confused it.

If you are using virtual inputs on the Lumagen, set the EDID on the Input for the HDDVD to only support 1080p. Without virtual inputs (say always using input 1), create a copy of your settings in Memory B and then edit B to only report 1080p and below resolutions - see the Apple TV scaling comments over the past couple of pages - and use memory B when switching over to the HD-DVD player.

Edit: You could also connect to the JVC's input 2 and then in the JVC switch from HDMI EDID mode A to B (legacy 1080p and below), but it is easier to setup in the Lumagen - especially if using virtual/physical multiple inputs.


----------



## bobof

OzHDHT said:


> I've notice a weird quirk with power and the Lumagen. I first noticed it a month or so ago. What's occurring is if they power gets cut from the Radiance directly, like the the power conditioner unit it's connected to is shut off, upon powering back up, no matter what I, I can't get any source's video back up. No amount of powering off and on with the remote will work afterwards, it just shows a black screen in the correct output mode but no video. What I've ended up doing in both cases is go through the software update process for my remotely accessible PC and it once that's done and you fire the unit back up, it's fine again. Bit of a head scratcher.


Do you mean you are updating the Radiance to make it work? Doesn't sound ideal.

There are a few power-related options I might try to toggle from whatever they are set to currently in order to see if they affect it - assuming you have a reproducible case and it always or regularly fails.
1) Other->OnOff Setup->Stby Power. My 5348 initially had some issues with the relatively new low power mode which would occasionally lead to similar issues, though these were fixed by a firmware release.
2) Other->OnOff Setup->Auto on - which controls what happens if the power is cut, does it go to standby, or does it power right up..
3) Other->OnOff Setup->Input select->After power removed->You could set this to a disused input, see if that helps
4) Other->OnOff Setup->Delay selection

Additionally, if you are using a linear PSU, I'd always try the original PSU. It is possible the rise time on the linear PSU is much longer if it is charging some massive output caps, or the output different in some other way, and it's not inconceivable that could be an issue.


----------



## woofer

OzHDHT said:


> Ok interesting. Really hoping it's not something to do with the new Linear power supply since the time I swapped it in was the first time I had the issue, but right now it's starting to look that way.
> 
> View attachment 3184507


I power down ( completely OFF) my 5348 after every session ....Never had an issue with re-powering/start-up... Also never had an issue with my previous 4242 ...

I am using an Up-Tone Audio JS2 LPS...


----------



## OzHDHT

bobof said:


> Do you mean you are updating the Radiance to make it work? Doesn't sound ideal.
> 
> There are a few power-related options I might try to toggle from whatever they are set to currently in order to see if they affect it - assuming you have a reproducible case and it always or regularly fails.
> 1) Other->OnOff Setup->Stby Power. My 5348 initially had some issues with the relatively new low power mode which would occasionally lead to similar issues, though these were fixed by a firmware release.
> 2) Other->OnOff Setup->Auto on - which controls what happens if the power is cut, does it go to standby, or does it power right up..
> 3) Other->OnOff Setup->Input select->After power removed->You could set this to a disused input, see if that helps
> 4) Other->OnOff Setup->Delay selection
> 
> Additionally, if you are using a linear PSU, I'd always try the original PSU. It is possible the rise time on the linear PSU is much longer if it is charging some massive output caps, or the output different in some other way, and it's not inconceivable that could be an issue.


Yeah so today I swapped out power supplies back to the factory brick and had a slightly different and them same scenario. First I had video however the inputs were locked to one source despite indicating they could be switched and the GUI indicated it was switching between inputs. So I powered down again. Subsequently the I'm now back to the black no video level screen, but full menus work as always. I notice it appears like it the memory is temporarily switched out in this mode, as a lot of of standard settings are wrong like output form saying other and input - output also saying the same.

It only fails under the full power cut scenario, it's rock solid otherwise. I've also notice it will flashing between blue - red on start up which I can't seem to find any info on.

Right now I've left it disconnected for say 20 mins then I'll go back and see what it's doing and also examine the various on/off setup options in the menu. The only other thing that comes to mind is I as a matter of course have the serial connector permanently connect to my HTPC for easy upgrades. I disconnected this case there is some kind of default to forced update mode that might be being triggered on full power cut. I also thought the blue - red LED flashing may be indicative of this mode.



woofer said:


> I power down ( completely OFF) my 5348 after every session ....Never had an issue with re-powering/start-up... Also never had an issue with my previous 4242 ...
> 
> I am using an Up-Tone Audio JS2 LPS...


My unit powers down fully when it's turned off and comes back on fine when switched on. But when you remove power fully this is when something occurs.


----------



## woofer

OzHDHT said:


> I've also notice it will flashing between blue - red on start up which I can't seem to find any info on.


Contact Jim Peterson @jrp ......From memory , in one of our conversations he mentioned something about that scenario......


----------



## OzHDHT

woofer said:


> Contact Jim Peterson......From memory , in one of our conversations he mentioned something about that scenario......


Yeah I might do. I'm not done with exploring scenarios yet. I'm just doing a another software update to bring it back to normal again then I'll try a couple of permutations to see what happens.


----------



## woofer

OzHDHT said:


> Yeah I might do. I'm not done with exploring scenarios yet. I'm just doing a another software update to bring it back to normal again then I'll try a couple of permutations to see what happens.


 Are you Doing the updates in BOOT MODE ?


----------



## woofer

@OzHDHT PM sent...


----------



## bobof

OzHDHT said:


> Yeah so today I swapped out power supplies back to the factory brick and had a slightly different and them same scenario. First I had video however the inputs were locked to one source despite indicating they could be switched and the GUI indicated it was switching between inputs. So I powered down again. Subsequently the I'm now back to the black no video level screen, but full menus work as always. I notice it appears like it the memory is temporarily switched out in this mode, as a lot of of standard settings are wrong like output form saying other and input - output also saying the same.
> 
> It only fails under the full power cut scenario, it's rock solid otherwise. I've also notice it will flashing between blue - red on start up which I can't seem to find any info on.


I'd have a chat with the Lumagen guys and describe everything you see in great detail.

I'd definitely try fiddling with the low power standby option and seeing if they change anything. I recall some oddities when that wasn't working on my machine, though it works fine now post updates.

Per my understanding, the red/blue flashing is some fairly recent debug information added that indicates that the microcode in the input cards is being updated. I believe that should only happen during the first reboot after changing the input card microcode (menu 0851 and menu 0850 commands), though my unit still typically does it twice if I choose to change microcode (on the subsequent reboot from remote as well as the first forced one), so I'm not 100% convinced by the logic.

But I can't see any reason why your unit should be thinking it needs to do that, unless there is some issue with the settings recall during that first power up, or similar (which maybe ties in with what you're seeing with the settings being wrong).

But anyway, I think definitely reach out to the guys at Lumagen.


----------



## Clark Burk

OzHDHT said:


> Ok interesting. Really hoping it's not something to do with the new Linear power supply since the time I swapped it in was the first time I had the issue, but right now it's starting to look that way.
> 
> View attachment 3184507


Yes if the issues started when you began using the new LPS that would be one of the first places I'd start to look. Perhaps go back to the original power supply and see if you have the same issues. Hopefully if it's faulty it hasn't caused any damage to the LRP.


----------



## OzHDHT

bobof said:


> I'd have a chat with the Lumagen guys and describe everything you see in great detail.
> 
> I'd definitely try fiddling with the low power standby option and seeing if they change anything.
> 
> But anyway, I think definitely reach out to the guys at Lumagen.


Tried the low power standby but that had no effect. Truly stumped now. I won't have time to reach out to Jim etc at Lumagen as I have to be away from home till weekend from tomorrow. So it will have to wait a few days I guess.




Clark Burk said:


> Yes if the issues started when you began using the new LPS that would be one of the first places I'd start to look. Perhaps go back to the original power supply and see if you have the same issues. Hopefully if it's faulty it hasn't caused any damage to the LRP.


Yeah thanks but you're a few steps behind there since I posted that. It's been taken out of the equation and I now have a repeatable issue where if disconnect power from my unit powered down or on, I lose my settings which can only be restored through reupload not internally. I've tried a boot mode software update as well just for the heck of it. But whatever is going on gives same result soon as unit is unplugged and restarted again. There's no doubt it's telling me something in its start up when the power LED flashes a red-blue sequence. However there seems to be no info around on LED fault code sequences. The only good thing right now is the unit is fine as long as I don't pull power on it.


----------



## Bill DePalma

dlinsley said:


> My Toshiba A35 did not like being plugged into a HDMI 2.0 receiver / chain without the following fix. The > 1080p EDID just confused it.
> 
> If you are using virtual inputs on the Lumagen, set the EDID on the Input for the HDDVD to only support 1080p. Without virtual inputs (say always using input 1), create a copy of your settings in Memory B and then edit B to only report 1080p and below resolutions - see the Apple TV scaling comments over the past couple of pages - and use memory B when switching over to the HD-DVD player.
> 
> Edit: You could also connect to the JVC's input 2 and then in the JVC switch from HDMI EDID mode A to B (legacy 1080p and below), but it is easier to setup in the Lumagen - especially if using virtual/physical multiple inputs.


Thanks so much, I will give that a try and report back.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> Thanks so much, I will give that a try and report back.


Sadly, it did not work, at least the method I tried. I was not 100% sure what I was supposed to set in your first example, so I did a direct command of MENU 0 2 0 to keep the resolution to 1080 24p, still a blank screen. Then I tried using input 2 on the JVC EDID set to B, blank screen. Then I tried using an HD Fury, that worked. I got an image when I checked the HDCP 1.4 + 2.2 box on the Fury menu. But I would like to be able to set up a memory in the Lumagen that would do this. Could you detail what settings to use to report 1080p and below. Would this be the mode setting of the output menu? Thanks


----------



## MOberhardt

Bill DePalma said:


> Sadly, it did not work, at least the method I tried. I was not 100% sure what I was supposed to set in your first example, so I did a direct command of MENU 0 2 0 to keep the resolution to 1080 24p, still a blank screen. Then I tried using input 2 on the JVC EDID set to B, blank screen. Then I tried using an HD Fury, that worked. I got an image when I checked the HDCP 1.4 + 2.2 box on the Fury menu. But I would like to be able to set up a memory in the Lumagen that would do this. Could you detail what settings to use to report 1080p and below. Would this be the mode setting of the output menu? Thanks


Someone posted this once before and it is what I used to force a player to output 1080p:


----------



## jrp

There is a known issue with (up until now one) 444X unit with any software since we released the 5348. The issue is that the unit would go to/from standby fine, but if power was removed the unit would never show inputs until it was updated to a pre-5348 software release. Then it could be normally updated to 5348 era software. This issue has a fix. It turns out the 5348 software updates created an issue that could make 4XXX inputs not work after power was removed. This was due to the I/O board firmware not being correctly updated.

Since it was only one system, we did not do a special release to get the fix into a public release, and only sent the fix to the user with the problem unit. Based on the above posts, we believe this is the same issue. So, I asked Patrick to do a release that has this Radiance Pro 4XXX input chip microcode issue fixed. It should be posted very soon.


----------



## aguy

@jrp amazing service as usual. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OzHDHT

jrp said:


> There is a known issue with (up until now one) 444X unit with any software since we released the 5348. The issue is that the unit would go to/from standby fine, but if power was removed the unit would never show inputs until it was updated to a pre-5348 software release. Then it could be normally updated to 5348 era software. This issue has a fix. It turns out the 5348 software updates created an issue that could make 4XXX inputs not work after power was removed. This was due to the I/O board firmware not being correctly updated.
> 
> Since it was only one system, we did not do a special release to get the fix into a public release, and only sent the fix to the user with the problem unit. Based on the above posts, we believe this is the same issue. So, I asked Patrick to do a release that has this Radiance Pro 4XXX input chip microcode issue fixed. It should be posted very soon.


Thank you Jim. You've save me reaching out directly and I really appreciate that as well fact we can share a small product issue with the community and help others that may run into the same as rare as it is.


----------



## Clark Burk

The firmware has now been posted.



Lumagen


----------



## Mike_WI

Clark Burk said:


> The firmware has now been posted.
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen


*FW 090121
- Posted 101221 *
Bugfix for some units having a power on lockup issue where it flashes the blue light on power up and eventually can power up but without a picture. 
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at _support__@lumagen.com
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## DigitalAV

Apologies if this has already been addressed (still going through all the LRP threads I can find including this one), but is PoP and PiP still planned on the 444x? This was one of my main motivators for buying the unit.


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> We do still plan to add PiP/PoP to the 444X models. We realize this is long overdue because HDR and DTM has consumed us for the last several years.
> 
> We are working on the pipeline enhancements. This is a major effort, and will take three to six months I believe. Once the pipeline enhancements are complete, we would add PiP. Then we plan to add PoP next after PiP. This assumes we do not get sidetracked (DTM, bugs, etc.), which could further delay PiP and PoP.


This was the last mention of PiP that I saw. Looks like the pipeline update will arrive first.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…is it possible to setup the Lumagen to utilize the 4096 panel in the JVC NX line to take advantage of the extra little bit of light…? So if I was to setup a 2.35 installation mode with Aspect=Zoom, does the Lumagen use the entire panel? Right now I believe I’m only using 3840x2160…does any of this make any sense at all or am I totally confused, once again…thanks folks


----------



## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Hi folks…is it possible to setup the Lumagen to utilize the 4096 panel in the JVC NX line to take advantage of the extra little bit of light…? So if I was to setup a 2.35 installation mode with Aspect=Zoom, does the Lumagen use the entire panel? Right now I believe I’m only using 3840x2160…does any of this make any sense at all or am I totally confused, once again…thanks folks


You can set up 4096 output in the Lumagen quite easily, that's what I use with my RS4500. Can't remember if you had a DCR lens, but Panamorph actual mention this in their documentation.


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> You can set up 4096 output in the Lumagen quite easily, that's what I use with my RS4500. Can't remember if you had a DCR lens, but Panamorph actual mention this in their documentation.


Thanks, no DCR here…Does setting up the Lumagen for 4096 gain a person incremental brightness?


----------



## OzHDHT

A bit, but not sure precisely. Obviously a different scenario to using the DCR, since if you're just zooming, your giving up light and resolution in the process.


----------



## Craig Peer

asharma said:


> Thanks, no DCR here…Does setting up the Lumagen for 4096 gain a person incremental brightness?


Yes, and you can do this in the projector now without a Lumagen. Consult your owners manual!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## asharma

Craig Peer said:


> Yes, and you can do this in the projector now without a Lumagen. Consult your owners manual!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I understand that you can do it w/o a Lumagen but was more wondering if folks w/o a DCR set the Lumagen up for 4096 vs 3840 for increased light output from using the entire panel…


----------



## Kris Deering

You would see about a 5% or so increase in brightness because of the zoom change (you would need to change the zoom on the projector to now fit the full width).


----------



## asharma

Kris Deering said:


> You would see about a 5% or so increase in brightness because of the zoom change (you would need to change the zoom on the projector to now fit the full width).


Thanks Kris…I’m assuming there would be corresponding changes that would need to be made on the Lumagen?


----------



## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Thanks Kris…I’m assuming there would be corresponding changes that would need to be made on the Lumagen?


That's why I mentioned you can set the LRP to 4096 output mode and also specify individual custom modes in 4096. That's what us DCR owners do as well. Check out the Lumagen manual for more specifics.


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> That's why I mentioned you can set the LRP to 4096 output mode and also specify individual custom modes in 4096. That's what us DCR owners do as well. Check out the Lumagen manual for more specifics.


Perfect, thank you…


----------



## aguy

Speaking of 4096 width …. 

I need to use 4096 width to fill my screen as I am at the zoom limit of my Sony 550 es projector. 

At the moment I have the projector doing the zoom to 4096 and I am feeding 3840 from my lumagen. 

I’ve been wondering whether it would be better to do the zoom in the lumagen instead. 

The essence of the question is lumagen versus Sony zooming ?? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craig Peer

aguy said:


> Speaking of 4096 width ….
> 
> I need to use 4096 width to fill my screen as I am at the zoom limit of my Sony 550 es projector.
> 
> At the moment I have the projector doing the zoom to 4096 and I am feeding 3840 from my lumagen.
> 
> I’ve been wondering whether it would be better to do the zoom in the lumagen instead.
> 
> The essence of the question is lumagen versus Sony zooming ??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try it both ways and let your eyes decide ( or a test pattern if you prefer ).


----------



## aguy

Craig Peer said:


> Try it both ways and let your eyes decide ( or a test pattern if you prefer ).


Planning to do that. I also value the wisdom of some of the things experienced members of this forum 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hoi

Both of the most recent firmware updates (082621 and 090121) have been giving me a tough time getting a signal sometimes when I power on or switch between inputs. I just get the blue "no input" screen on my JVC and no able to pull up the info screen on the Lumagen. The 072821 firmware has been rock solid for me.


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> Speaking of 4096 width ….
> 
> I need to use 4096 width to fill my screen as I am at the zoom limit of my Sony 550 es projector.
> 
> At the moment I have the projector doing the zoom to 4096 and I am feeding 3840 from my lumagen.
> 
> I’ve been wondering whether it would be better to do the zoom in the lumagen instead.
> 
> The essence of the question is lumagen versus Sony zooming ??


Using the Radiance Pro NoRing(TM) scaling for all scaling is better IMO.

In addition, IMO it is best to scale in one step, using one algorithm (see exception below). The issue is each scaling step must first filter the content it is receiving.

NOTE: For SD source, there is some advantage to two Radiance upscaling steps. For example if you have a Radiance 2144 to process analog SD content, such as a laser-disc, I have found using the 2144 to scale to HD and then the Radiance Pro to scale to 4k does provide a slightly better result. This is because the Radiance and Radiance Pro scaling is optimized for scaling in the range of 2x in each dimension, and since they use the same algorithm, and are designed to work in series, they work well in for SD to UHD in two steps.

If you have HD, and you have the Pro scale to 3840, and then the projector scale to 4096 width, I do not believe it will be as good as using the Pro to directly scale using its scaling to 4096 wide. You are of course welcome to do your own testing. If you do, please report your results here.

===== 

The light output gain equation for 4096 output versus 3840 wide output is: (4096/3840)^2 = 1.138 or 13.8% gain. This is because you have 4096/3840 = 1.067 of 6.7% more pixels horizontally, but when you reduce the zoom to just fill the screen width, you have the same percentage of extra pixels vertically, and the extra light output is the product of the ratio of the two dimensions.

I am glad you asked. Up until today I had been thinking is was a 6.67% gain until I thought about the math to answer the question of light gain for 4096 wide.

===== 

Another interesting result is that if you added an anamorphic lens for a 2.40 aspect screen, and compared to 4096 output without a lens, the best case light increase is (4096*2160)/(4096*1707) = 1.265, or 26.5%. Note that the vertical output for a no-lens 2.40 aspect screen case using 4096 wide is 4096/2.40 = 1707 vertical pixels.

If you do not have enough light without a lens, and have a large enough "throw ratio" (which IMO is 1.6 minimum) then you still get a nice boost in light output using an anamorphic lens.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> The light output gain equation for 4096 output versus 3840 wide output is: (4096/3840)^2 = 1.138 or 13.8% gain. This is because you have 4096/3840 = 1.067 of 6.7% more pixels horizontally, but when you reduce the zoom to just fill the screen width, you have the same percentage of extra pixels vertically, and the extra light output is the product of the ratio of the two dimensions.


I believe this only holds as a light gain equation in real world if you simultaneously move the projector further forward in the room so you don't have to adjust the lens zoom. If you keep the projector in the same place then you have to zoom the lens out. Because these lenses are not constant aperture throughout the zoom range, this means you then lose some of the gains.

Most people when moving from 3840-4096 panel width probably won't also move the projector forward on the ceiling, so it is worth noting.


----------



## sjschaff

Hoi said:


> Both of the most recent firmware updates (082621 and 090121) have been giving me a tough time getting a signal sometimes when I power on or switch between inputs. I just get the blue "no input" screen on my JVC and no able to pull up the info screen on the Lumagen. The 072821 firmware has been rock solid for me.


I've noticed this blue screen "no input" happening with 082621. It's not a matter of switching inputs for me, as I use my Trinnov for switching. Seems to be that for one of my sources, Zappiti, if I am coming from having played a film and then using Zappiti's remote to come back to a prior screen of source material, I get the blue screen and using the LRP remote OK button I get no information. Seems that the only way I can bring the LRP back to "life" is to switch inputs on the Trinnov, or in worse case, put the LRP into standby and turn it on again. Quite annoying...
May return to 072821 to see if that "fixes" the problem.


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> That's why I mentioned you can set the LRP to 4096 output mode and also specify individual custom modes in 4096. That's what us DCR owners do as well. Check out the Lumagen manual for more specifics.


Are you or someone able to tell me what specifically needs to change in what menus to config the Lumagen to output 4096 not 3840? I’m using a 2.35 scope screen, no DCR…I just took the Lumagen out of the loop to test Aspect=Auto vs Aspect=Zoom…Aspect=Zoom is giving me 30 FC, Aspect=Auto is giving me 26.5FC…a very noticeable difference! If I am able to config the Lumagen for 4096 vs 3840, I’m assuming I’ll get the extra 12 percent light?


----------



## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Are you or someone able to tell me what specifically needs to change in what menus to config the Lumagen to output 4096 not 3840? I’m using a 2.35 scope screen, no DCR…I just took the Lumagen out of the loop to test Aspect=Auto vs Aspect=Zoom…Aspect=Zoom is giving me 30 FC, Aspect=Auto is giving me 26.5FC…a very noticeable difference! If I am able to config the Lumagen for 4096 vs 3840, I’m assuming I’ll get the extra 12 percent light?


It's all in the output menus. You tailor output to 4096 in output mode section. Again it's well explained in the manual.

MENU → Output Setup→ Ok


----------



## asharma

OzHDHT said:


> It's all in the output menus. You tailor output to 4096 in output mode section. Again it's well explained in the manual.
> 
> MENU → Output Setup→ Ok


Perfect, apologies, FORGOT the manual part!!!


----------



## jrp

asharma said:


> Are you or someone able to tell me what specifically needs to change in what menus to config the Lumagen to output 4096 not 3840? I’m using a 2.35 scope screen, no DCR…I just took the Lumagen out of the loop to test Aspect=Auto vs Aspect=Zoom…Aspect=Zoom is giving me 30 FC, Aspect=Auto is giving me 26.5FC…a very noticeable difference! If I am able to config the Lumagen for 4096 vs 3840, I’m assuming I’ll get the extra 12 percent light?


You can use the _Output Setup Menu_ but we have some special codes to make this faster (These codes are in the manual under "Direct Codes"):

Select maximum output rate (these first two commands allow only 50 or 60 Hertz output):

MENU 0873 for 9 GHz maximum
MENU 0874 for 18 GHz maximum

Then to add 24 Hertz output, and select the horizontal output resolution:

MENU 0872 for 3840 by 2160
MENU 0877 for 4096 by 2160

You also need to use the Output->Styles->Style0->Mask and Shrink->Shrink to adjust which pixels are active for your screen output aspect, or for a 2.35 screen without a lens enter MENU 0827.

Save your changes.


----------



## asharma

jrp said:


> You can use the _Output Setup Menu_ but we have some special codes to make this faster (These codes are in the manual under "Direct Codes"):
> 
> Select maximum output rate (these first two commands allow only 50 or 60 Hertz output):
> 
> MENU 0873 for 9 GHz maximum
> MENU 0874 for 18 GHz maximum
> 
> Then to add 24 Hertz output, and select the horizontal output resolution:
> 
> MENU 0872 for 3840 by 2160
> MENU 0877 for 4096 by 2160
> 
> You also need to use the Output->Styles->Style0->Mask and Shrink->Shrink to adjust which pixels are active for your screen output aspect, or for a 2.35 screen without a lens enter MENU 0827.
> 
> Save your changes.


Thanks Jim…good news and bad news…I did all 3 Direct Codes and it looks like they took…I can see in the info screen 4096 is being output…After making the above changes, with my RS3000 using Aspect=Auto in installation mode 1, I measure 26.5FC which is the same as when I was running 3840…If I then switch to my 2nd installation mode where I have Aspect=Zoom on the RS3000, I get 30FC…it’s like even tho I am outputting 4096 on the Lumagen I only get that extra brightness if I also have the RS3000 set to output 4096 via Aspect=Zoom…I thought by setting the Lumagen to 4096 the RS3000 could remain on Aspect=Auto and I would still receive the increased brightness…I’m sorry, how is it supposed to work? Thanks again…

edit: or do both the Lumagen AND the RS3000 need to be set to output 4096 to receive the extra brightness? Isn’t that double scaling?

edit 2 : working now, see post below


----------



## giomania

Hi everyone, 

I was six months behind, and blasted through about 6,000 posts in the last two days. The big takeaway was to change your damn cables, lol. Seriously, I need to try and keep up and enjoy every post. This one of my favorite threads on AVS, and the Lumagen Radiance Pro is one of my favorite component in my theater.

Mark


----------



## giomania

Sittler27 said:


> Edit: Ok, it's amazing what a few hours of learning will do.
> 
> I understand now that there's no need to do an autocal so I'm resetting my JVC back with INIT file and doing gamma only AC.
> 
> What I'd really like to know from some JVC owners who have done this before is what to input into my Colourspace software for the 3DLUT creation.
> 
> I want to create a 1D+3D for SDR and then a 1D+3D for HDR.
> 
> View attachment 3164882
> 
> 
> 
> *__*
> 
> I wasn't sure where to post this set of questions since they are varied but I am in general attempting to calibrate and create/apply a 3DLUT to my Lumagen RP.
> My display is a JVC NX9/DCR and I have a Studiotek 130 138" scope screen.
> Throw is 15.5' & lamp has 80hrs.
> My Lumagen RP was pre-configured by @Kris Deering to use two modes (SDR & HDR) and switches between them depending on content.
> 
> Yesterday I managed to do what I understand is the first step which was a successful JVC Autocal (with alternate meter - i1DisplayPro).
> I created a 2.4 gamma in the Custom1 slot and selected that for the HDR Tone Mapping value ahead of the HDR10 cals below.
> I performed 2 gamma cals: one for low lamp/SDRNatural/no filter + one for high lamp/HDR10user4/filteron both with diffuser on, iris fully opened, and the meter placed 3' away from lens facing projector.
> I performed 3 colour cals: one for low lamp/SDRNatural/no filter/iris=-9 + one for high lamp/HDR10user4/filteron/iris=0 + low lamp/HDR10user4/filteroff/iris=0, all with diffuser off, and the meter placed ~2-3' away facing screen center slightly tilted up.
> 
> After JVC AC, I used Colourspace to measure my nits for the HDR mode as follows:
> Low Lamp & Filter Off = 98.7 nits
> High Lamp & Filter On = 109.5 nits
> High Lamp & Filter Off = 134 nits (didn't calibrate this mode - just measured)
> 
> *Questions:*
> 1. About low vs. high lamp: High lamp eroding my bulb is not a concern for me, but while the high lamp fan noise is tolerable I am a little bit of an audiophile and have always run it on low lamp and am more used to the whisper quiet of that mode.
> Given the above measures and how running wide filter/highlamp yields only 11 more nits than nofilter/lowlamp, I'm curious what most would do in this regard?
> Or would you run in nofilter/highlamp to take advantage of the ~35 extra nits over low lamp?
> Of course, my eyes like the extra light of high lamp but I'm trying to be practical here.
> 
> 2. Next steps/3DLUT: Apart from checking my Brightness/Contrast post-JVC AC, in the past I would normally at this point use the Lumagen's internal patterns alongside my EODIS3 and Colourspace software to manually adjust my JVC's gains/offset settings to get a nice linear greyscale, etc.
> Am I correct in assuming now that since I intend to load a 3DLUT, that I should just skip this manual calibration step (keep all those JVC settings at 0) and instead look to create/load a 3DLUT into the my Lumagen using Colourspace?
> Are there any other steps I should be following at this point?
> 
> I intend to follow this Light Illusion resource in generating the 3DLUT.
> I also intend to create the 3DLUT using the Lumagen's internal reference patterns and Colourspace's auto-integration with those patterns (which I finally managed to get working).


I am curious what you wound up selecting here? I think I have a good profile, but struggled to get a good LUT result, so I just gave up because I ran out of time, and then never re-visited it.

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## asharma

asharma said:


> Thanks Jim…good news and bad news…I did all 3 Direct Codes and it looks like they took…I can see in the info screen 4096 is being output…After making the above changes, with my RS3000 using Aspect=Auto in installation mode 1, I measure 26.5FC which is the same as when I was running 3840…If I then switch to my 2nd installation mode where I have Aspect=Zoom on the RS3000, I get 30FC…it’s like even tho I am outputting 4096 on the Lumagen I only get that extra brightness if I also have the RS3000 set to output 4096 via Aspect=Zoom…I thought by setting the Lumagen to 4096 the RS3000 could remain on Aspect=Auto and I would still receive the increased brightness…I’m sorry, how is it supposed to work? Thanks again…
> 
> edit: or do both the Lumagen AND the RS3000 need to be set to output 4096 to receive the extra brightness? Isn’t that double scaling?


Thanks to everyone for your help…go it…a nice 13 percent boost in brightness using the RP to output 4096 to the JVC…I had to change shrink from 12 to 9.5 for some reason…3840 output=26.5FC, 4096 output=30.5FC! Nice!!! Thanks again


----------



## asharma

Deleted


----------



## asharma

Deleted


----------



## fatherom

Perhaps a dumb question, but I'll ask. I'm assuming this switch to outputting 4096 (as opposed to 3840) to gain brightness really only makes sense for those with 2.35:1 screens? I have a 16:9 screen (albeit with masking panels) with my Sony 885. But it seems that switching to 4096 when using a 16:9 screen would result in the image being stretched (although jrp mentioned using mask and shrink...I could see shrink maybe bringing the image back into the proper "shape", not entirely sure what masking would do).


----------



## Sittler27

giomania said:


> I am curious what you wound up selecting here? I think I have a good profile, but struggled to get a good LUT result, so I just gave up because I ran out of time, and then never re-visited it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


Managed to calibrate 1D + 3DLUTS successfully and load them to the appropriate memories for SDR and HDR separately on the Lumagen.

I run SDR low lamp iris -3 and HDR high lamp iris 0.

Had a LOT of technical glitch issues that ironically were patched up just at the time I was needing them fixed for doing the LUTs. It was mainly about Lumagen not feeding it's internal patch frames properly to the Colourspace software.


----------



## DigitalAV

Hey folks, thanks in advance for reading:

1) On Oppo 203 video output settings:

I watch mostly 4k24p UHD BDs via Oppo 203 > LRP. Oppo 203 reports most 4k24p UHD BDs as 10bit-420-HDR2020. When I set the Oppo 203 output to Auto for color space and depth, it sends 4k24p UHD BDs as 12bit-444-HDR2020 (upconverted?) into the LRP which then outputs as 4k24p-10bit-422-SDR709. *Would I gain anything by forcing the Oppo color space to 420 and depth to 10bit to "pass-through" the UHD BDs' native 10bit-420 to the LRP (without Oppo 203 Auto first converting to 12bit-444)?*

2) On Genlock:

_Highly_ enjoying Genlocked 24fps UHD HDR streaming (via $40 Tivo Stream 4k of all things), it's as close to disc video quality I've seen yet. *What is the difference between Fast and Normal?* Gut says maybe use Fast for PC gaming to further cut latency and use Normal for 24fps/60fps movies/videos?

3) On calibration:

My *current projector can achieve 112% Rec709 (75% DCI-P3) *and *has a Rec2020 color mode* that can be manually forced.

Assuming this means both SDR and HDR really need to aim for Rec709 (and I should not try to "force" displaying any colors outside of that colorspace using this projector when using HDR)?

Given this, should I just set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDR709, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert *OR *should I try to use my projector's Rec2020 color mode and calibrate _both_ CMS0 and CMS1 to SDR Rec709 within SDR2020 (like from these steps but also setting CMS1 to use a SDR Rec709 calibration within SDR2020 like CMS0)?

4) On what to do for a *projector with 90% DCI-P3 *coverage:

I plan on adding a second projector that can do 90% DCI-P3. For this, should I do a 1D LUT, a full P3 3D LUT, and set CMS0 and CMS1 Colorspace = SDRP3, HDR Flag = Off, and 2020 <--> 601/709 = Auto Convert (from these steps)? I guess the question here is *what's the general threshold of DCI-P3 coverage that warrants using SDRP3 versus dropping back down to Rec709*?

5) On *harebrained *ideas:

Would it be possible to *use some* *Radiance Pro magic to somehow "trick" my projector into using its dynamic iris more to my liking* (e.g., only close during fade-to-blacks but leave dark scenes of a certain APL alone, etc.)?


----------



## blake

asharma said:


> Thanks to everyone for your help…go it…a nice 13 percent boost in brightness using the RP to output 4096 to the JVC…I had to change shrink from 12 to 9.5 for some reason…3840 output=26.5FC, 4096 output=30.5FC! Nice!!! Thanks again


Did you leave your JVC on aspect : auto then , so it doesn’t also try to scale to 4096 (when only the Lumagen should be doing this ) ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## asharma

blake said:


> Did you leave your JVC on aspect : auto then , so it doesn’t also try to scale to 4096 (when only the Lumagen should be doing this ) ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Correct Sir…Aspect=Auto…


----------



## jazzrock

Either it’s getting worse or it simply has become more irritating and therefore i notice more. Either way I’m experiencing audio drops outs almost every time i watch a movie. Usually just once per viewing. I don’t know maybe….. 7/10 xs. 

It happened yesterday afternoon while listening to an ISO rip of a bkuray audio disk as I listened to the Atmos album. Then last night during a movie. I don’t Know if it happens at a regular time cycle or not but it seems to be between 45-70 minutes into a movie. 

I have a Datasat, Oppo 203, Baetis Conputer running JRiver. 3 meter Audioquest hdmi cables. Sources go to Lumagen RP 4446 then to Datasat. 

Now, I’m fully aware of the MANY posts through out this thread about the subject and I’m not adverse to researching it. But before i do i thought I’d ask if those with a similar setup to mine discovered a common issue that resolved the problem? Or is there a particular area in this thread that someone would suggest i start. I know cables are always the first thing to check but since they seem to match the specs Jim suggests I’d like to check other areas if it makes sense to before i buy new cables. 

Thanks


----------



## llang269

So before my older model 4446 went out on my, I used to get audio drops on Apple TV and Kaleidescape. Since receiving my new 4444+ I haven’t had a single audio drop. I really do love my Lumagen


----------



## Karl Maga

jazzrock said:


> Either it’s getting worse or it simply has become more irritating and therefore i notice more. Either way I’m experiencing audio drops outs almost every time i watch a movie. Usually just once per viewing. I don’t know maybe….. 7/10 xs.
> 
> It happened yesterday afternoon while listening to an ISO rip of a bkuray audio disk as I listened to the Atmos album. Then last night during a movie. I don’t Know if it happens at a regular time cycle or not but it seems to be between 45-70 minutes into a movie.
> 
> I have a Datasat, Oppo 203, Baetis Conputer running JRiver. 3 meter Audioquest hdmi cables. Sources go to Lumagen RP 4446 then to Datasat.
> 
> Now, I’m fully aware of the MANY posts through out this thread about the subject and I’m not adverse to researching it. But before i do i thought I’d ask if those with a similar setup to mine discovered a common issue that resolved the problem? Or is there a particular area in this thread that someone would suggest i start. I know cables are always the first thing to check but since they seem to match the specs Jim suggests I’d like to check other areas if it makes sense to before i buy new cables.
> 
> Thanks


I'm not familiar with the Oppo, but does it have a way to play a ISO file from a directly connected solid state drive, such as a thumb drive? This would be one way to eliminate the LAN and Baetis Computer/JRiver (for testing purposes).

Or, play the disc in the Oppo and compare results.


----------



## thebland

jazzrock said:


> Either it’s getting worse or it simply has become more irritating and therefore i notice more. Either way I’m experiencing audio drops outs almost every time i watch a movie. Usually just once per viewing. I don’t know maybe….. 7/10 xs.
> 
> It happened yesterday afternoon while listening to an ISO rip of a bkuray audio disk as I listened to the Atmos album. Then last night during a movie. I don’t Know if it happens at a regular time cycle or not but it seems to be between 45-70 minutes into a movie.
> 
> I have a Datasat, Oppo 203, Baetis Conputer running JRiver. 3 meter Audioquest hdmi cables. Sources go to Lumagen RP 4446 then to Datasat.
> 
> Now, I’m fully aware of the MANY posts through out this thread about the subject and I’m not adverse to researching it. But before i do i thought I’d ask if those with a similar setup to mine discovered a common issue that resolved the problem? Or is there a particular area in this thread that someone would suggest i start. I know cables are always the first thing to check but since they seem to match the specs Jim suggests I’d like to check other areas if it makes sense to before i buy new cables.
> 
> Thanks


I fixed that identical issue with a cable swap. Was occurring on Kaleidescape. Added a 3M Tributaries ULTRA HIGH DEF cable as recommended by Jim and it solved it. Don’t hot swap cables. .


----------



## bobof

DigitalAV said:


> *Would I gain anything by forcing the Oppo color space to 420 and depth to 10bit to "pass-through" the UHD BDs' native 10bit-420 to the LRP (without Oppo 203 Auto first converting to 12bit-444)?*


10 bit 24p 4:2:0 is not a valid format according to HDMI.org standards, so you can't send it out of the Oppo. The following are supported format combinations. From UHD 101: Demystifying 4K, UHD Blu Ray, wide color gamut, HDR, 4:4:4, 18Gbps and the rest! - Acoustic Frontiers










DigitalAV said:


> _Highly_ enjoying Genlocked 24fps UHD HDR streaming (via $40 Tivo Stream 4k of all things), it's as close to disc video quality I've seen yet. *What is the difference between Fast and Normal?* Gut says maybe use Fast for PC gaming to further cut latency and use Normal for 24fps/60fps movies/videos?


The only benefit of genlock to presentation should be a lack of dropped / duplicate frames which the Radiance would otherwise have to introduce to maintain sync between free running input and output devices (don't get me wrong, it's a significant benefit). Fast vs Normal is related to how aggressively the PLL locks up on HDMI resync. Some displays don't like fast, so better to use normal. Normal will have slightly slower resync speeds though I believe. Nothing to do with latency through the processor, neither is of particular benefit for gaming vs video etc.


DigitalAV said:


> My *current projector can achieve 112% Rec709 (75% DCI-P3) *and *has a Rec2020 color mode* that can be manually forced.
> 
> Assuming this means both SDR and HDR really need to aim for Rec709 (and I should not try to "force" displaying any colors outside of that colorspace using this projector when using HDR)?


I think there are many answers to this, some depending on whether you are pushed for time and only want to run 1 3DLUT, etc.

If you were using a 3DLUT, and you get the extra gamut coverage above REC709 without losing light in an undesireable quantity, I'd personally calibrate such a display using the SDRP3 or SDR2020 option for HDR content. There's no "forcing" colour. To the contrary; if you map to a smaller gamut than the display natively supports, then you are forcing wide gamut colours to be mapped to a narrower gamut. With an appropriate 3DLUT, only colours that cannot be reahed will be cropped to the gamut edge.

As I use different user modes in my PJ for SDR and HDR content (with different iris settings) I do SDR in REC709 and HDR is SDRP3, with separate 3DLUTS for each.


DigitalAV said:


> Would it be possible to *use some* *Radiance Pro magic to somehow "trick" my projector into using its dynamic iris more to my liking* (e.g., only close during fade-to-blacks but leave dark scenes of a certain APL alone, etc.)?


With SDR you could fiddle the gamma, but the results would probably be variable depending on content, as the iris algos are often based on image APL and not pixel levels (hence why the starfields often dim in brightness in spite of the stars being white). With HDR there are some more options that will affect the image output, but again I think the results will be variable. You'd have to experiment.

On my own X7900 I run with DI off. The gains in black level aren't worth the issues that the DI introduces at inoportune moments.


----------



## jqmn

bobof said:


> 10 bit 24p 4:2:0 is not a valid format according to HDMI.org standards, so you can't send it out of the Oppo. The following are supported format combinations.


Even though it isn't an official format I believe you can select and send 4:2:0 out of the Oppo as an "experimental" setting. In any event IIRC the preferred 203 out setting is not Auto but instead is 4:2:2 with either 10 or 12 bits. YMMV.


----------



## Clark Burk

I'm trying to remember what was said about the future pipeline improvements. I think it was said the front end is still 10 bit on the input side. Is there any point in having the Oppo or any player output more than 10 bit if the option exists? If your player outputs 12 bit what is the LRP doing with the additional 2 bits?


----------



## bobof

jqmn said:


> Even though it isn't an official format I believe you can select and send 4:2:0 out of the Oppo as an "experimental" setting. In any event IIRC the preferred 203 out setting is not Auto but instead is 4:2:2 with either 10 or 12 bits. YMMV.


I had to go back and double check this, but worth checking.

The 50 and 60p modes experimentally support 420 10 bit according to Oppo as shown on the UI, which is supported in HDMI2.0.

If you set the unit to 420 10bit, 50 and 60p HDR will indeed play out in 420. However, if you play some 24p HDR content, it will flip to a supported mode, which is 422 12 bit. There is as far as I can tell no way to make it do 420 10 bit 24p output. 

Even if there were a way to do 24p with 420 10bit though, from what I understand according to madshi the Oppos still aren't pixel perfect in that mode at 50 and 60p; although the output format is correct there is it seems a pipeline conversion internally to the product.


----------



## Mark Burton

jazzrock said:


> Either it’s getting worse or it simply has become more irritating and therefore i notice more. Either way I’m experiencing audio drops outs almost every time i watch a movie. Usually just once per viewing. I don’t know maybe….. 7/10 xs.
> 
> It happened yesterday afternoon while listening to an ISO rip of a bkuray audio disk as I listened to the Atmos album. Then last night during a movie. I don’t Know if it happens at a regular time cycle or not but it seems to be between 45-70 minutes into a movie.
> 
> I have a Datasat, Oppo 203, Baetis Conputer running JRiver. 3 meter Audioquest hdmi cables. Sources go to Lumagen RP 4446 then to Datasat.
> 
> Now, I’m fully aware of the MANY posts through out this thread about the subject and I’m not adverse to researching it. But before i do i thought I’d ask if those with a similar setup to mine discovered a common issue that resolved the problem? Or is there a particular area in this thread that someone would suggest i start. I know cables are always the first thing to check but since they seem to match the specs Jim suggests I’d like to check other areas if it makes sense to before i buy new cables.
> 
> Thanks





thebland said:


> I fixed that identical issue with a cable swap. Was occurring on Kaleidescape. Added a 3M Tributaries ULTRA HIGH DEF cable as recommended by Jim and it solved it. Don’t hot swap cables. .


For months I’ve been trying to resolve this issue, I’ve tried a myriad of cables including the much fabled tributaries 3m.

absolutely none have made a difference. If I have the lumagen in the audio chain, whatever I do I can’t resolve the dropout issue, at least 1 per film, sometimes 2, sources make no difference, have swapped out my trinnov hdmi board, again no difference, tried different inputs and outputs, no difference.

I have tried everything suggested, on here, on PM’s, over on avforums, from trinnov.

im literally stuck and feel like the 5348 was a complete waste of money for me, I have no choice but to bypass the audio, I should have just stuck with a 4242.

I’ve got a jvc rs3000 on its way to me soon, I’m seriously contemplating giving up the lumagen.

Regards,

a completely and utterly frustrated 5348 owner.


----------



## jazzrock

Karl Maga said:


> I'm not familiar with the Oppo, but does it have a way to play a ISO file from a directly connected solid state drive, such as a thumb drive? This would be one way to eliminate the LAN and Baetis Computer/JRiver (for testing purposes).
> 
> Or, play the disc in the Oppo and compare results.


Thx, Karl. 

That was the first time i streamed an ISO in at least 6 months. In my theater it’s always Bluray/4K.


----------



## jrp

jazzrock said:


> Either it’s getting worse or it simply has become more irritating and therefore i notice more. Either way I’m experiencing audio drops outs almost every time i watch a movie. Usually just once per viewing. I don’t know maybe….. 7/10 xs.
> 
> It happened yesterday afternoon while listening to an ISO rip of a bkuray audio disk as I listened to the Atmos album. Then last night during a movie. I don’t Know if it happens at a regular time cycle or not but it seems to be between 45-70 minutes into a movie.
> 
> I have a Datasat, Oppo 203, Baetis Conputer running JRiver. 3 meter Audioquest hdmi cables. Sources go to Lumagen RP 4446 then to Datasat.
> 
> Now, I’m fully aware of the MANY posts through out this thread about the subject and I’m not adverse to researching it. But before i do i thought I’d ask if those with a similar setup to mine discovered a common issue that resolved the problem? Or is there a particular area in this thread that someone would suggest i start. I know cables are always the first thing to check but since they seem to match the specs Jim suggests I’d like to check other areas if it makes sense to before i buy new cables.
> 
> Thanks


We have found there is some foible in the Datasat where you need to have the Radiance Pro send it both audio and video for it to work well for audio. If you have an 18 GHz output in a 4242, this is an issue and one of the reasons why I recommend a 9 GHz output. If you have a 4242 with a 9 GHz output, or a 444X with a video + audio output available, enable both audio and video to the Datasat.

I have a theory that the design in a number of audio processors does not allow it to be "out of the sweet spot of 9 GHz" far enough for its PLL, or some other circuit, in the audio processor, to always stay locked on the 720p "audio only" output from the Pro. The HDMI specification requires that the audio processor be capable of this, but the Datasat (and some other audio processors) apparently does not meet this specification.

For the Datasat, and actually for any HDCP 2.2 4k audio processor, I recommend:


Use a Radiance Pro output capable of both audio and video. Then enable both using the Output Setup Menu.
Use a 3 meter 18 GHz certified passive HDMI cable (such as the Tributaries UHDP or AVPro store Bullet train) from the Pro to the Datasat
Use manual audio EDID (MENU 0943) in the Radiance Pro to "Enable common audio formats" in the Pro's EDID back to sources.

We have a number of customers who are using the Datasat without audio dropouts (to the best of our knowledge since people tend to report such issues). In previous cases I know about, once the above steps were completed Datasat audio issues were resolved.


----------



## jazzrock

jrp said:


> We have found there is some foible in the Datasat where you need to have the Radiance Pro send it both audio and video for it to work well for audio. If you have an 18 GHz output in a 4242, this is an issue and one of the reasons why I recommend a 9 GHz output. If you have a 4242 with a 9 GHz output, or a 444X with a video + audio output available, enable both audio and video to the Datasat.
> 
> I have a theory that the design in a number of audio processors does not allow it to be "out of the sweet spot of 9 GHz" far enough for its PLL, or some other circuit, in the audio processor, to always stay locked on the 720p "audio only" output from the Pro. The HDMI specification requires that the audio processor be capable of this, but the Datasat (and some other audio processors) apparently does not meet this specification.
> 
> For the Datasat, and actually for any HDCP 2.2 4k audio processor, I recommend:
> 
> 
> Use a Radiance Pro output capable of both audio and video. Then enable both using the Output Setup Menu.
> Use a 3 meter 18 GHz certified passive HDMI cable (such as the Tributaries UHDP or AVPro store Bullet train) from the Pro to the Datasat
> Use manual audio EDID (MENU 0943) in the Radiance Pro to "Enable common audio formats" in the Pro's EDID back to sources.
> 
> We have a number of customers who are using the Datasat without audio dropouts (to the best of our knowledge since people tend to report such issues). In previous cases I know about, once the above steps were completed Datasat audio issues were resolved.


Thank you VERY much, jrp. Really appreciate it. I’m going to forward this info to Ken Whitcomb, calibrator extraordinaire and the guy who installed the Lumagen for me. Wish i was and engineer but sadly just an enthusiast!


----------



## SJHT

thebland said:


> I fixed that identical issue with a cable swap. Was occurring on Kaleidescape. Added a 3M Tributaries ULTRA HIGH DEF cable as recommended by Jim and it solved it. Don’t hot swap cables. .


I thought you were running video from your Strato to a Lumagen and audio from the Strato to your Trinnov? Were you having audio drops from this setup or did you go back to sending audio from the Lumagen? SJ


----------



## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> For months I’ve been trying to resolve this issue, I’ve tried a myriad of cables including the much fabled tributaries 3m.
> 
> absolutely none have made a difference. If I have the lumagen in the audio chain, whatever I do I can’t resolve the dropout issue, at least 1 per film, sometimes 2, sources make no difference, have swapped out my trinnov hdmi board, again no difference, tried different inputs and outputs, no difference.
> 
> I have tried everything suggested, on here, on PM’s, over on avforums, from trinnov.
> 
> im literally stuck and feel like the 5348 was a complete waste of money for me, I have no choice but to bypass the audio, I should have just stuck with a 4242.
> 
> I’ve got a jvc rs3000 on its way to me soon, I’m seriously contemplating giving up the lumagen.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> a completely and utterly frustrated 5348 owner.


Mark:

Sorry if the below suggestions are repeats, but please try the following (if you have not) for the connection to your Trinnov. I will assume since you swapped the HDMI board you have the new 8 input version, rather than the older 7 input version (for which you would use input 7). From reports, it seems the new 8-input board is better than the old 7-input board.


Use the Radiance Pro 5348 Output 2 (defaults to both audio and video) to send audio to the Trinnov.
Use a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Pro to the Trinnov, and from sources to the Pro.
Increase the 5348 output swing on Output 2 to the Trinnov from the HDMI spec voltage (default) to a little over 1.2 times spec with the special command MENU 0728, and Save. You can get back to the standard output swing on Output 2 with MENU 0725. Note the tens digit is the output number (1, 2, 3), and the command can be used for each 5348 (only) output.
Enable manual EDID (MENU 0943) to "Enable common audio formats" (which I believe you have already done).
Save any changes.
Press each end of every HDMI cable firmly in and wiggle left and right to seat the cables.

Again, sorry to repeat if we covered all these.


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> Mark:
> 
> Sorry if the below suggestions are repeats, but please try the following (if you have not) for the connection to your Trinnov. I will assume since you swapped the HDMI board you have the new 8 input version, rather than the older 7 input version (for which you would use input 7). From reports, it seems the new 8-input board is better than the old 7-input board.
> 
> 
> Use the Radiance Pro 5348 Output 2 (defaults to both audio and video) to send audio to the Trinnov.
> Use a 3 meter Tributaries UHDP cable from the Pro to the Trinnov, and from sources to the Pro.
> Increase the 5348 output swing on Output 2 to the Trinnov from the HDMI spec voltage (default) to a little over 1.2 times spec with the special command MENU 0728, and Save. You can get back to the standard output swing on Output 2 with MENU 0725. Note the tens digit is the output number (1, 2, 3), and the command can be used for each 5348 (only) output.
> Enable manual EDID (MENU 0943) to "Enable common audio formats" (which I believe you have already done).
> Save any changes.
> Press each end of every HDMI cable firmly in and wiggle left and right to seat the cables.
> 
> Again, sorry to repeat if we covered all these.


I’ll try these, the only one I’ve not tried up to now is output 2, which I read earlier. I’ve literally just watched a film all the way through without a drop out. 1 film is too early to confirm a fix, but it’s the first time in a long time I’ve managed to get though one without a drop whilst having the audio through the RP. 👍🏻

p.s although a new hdmi board, it’s still the 7 input version on the altitude.


----------



## thebland

SJHT said:


> I thought you were running video from your Strato to a Lumagen and audio from the Strato to your Trinnov? Were you having audio drops from this setup or did you go back to sending audio from the Lumagen? SJ


Actually, audio and video (one cable) to Lumagen for all sources (Xfinity, ROKU, K, Apple TV, Crestron NVX, BD) then audio to Trinnov and video to PJ (split by Lumagen). And I’d get these random 3-3 second audio only dropouts like one or two times per movie (on Kaleidescape) and it was a bit maddening. But I simply swapped cables out and it ended it. Can’t speak to issues with the other sources because 95% of my viewing is on Kaleidescape.


----------



## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> I’ll try these, the only one I’ve not tried up to now is output 2, which I read earlier. I’ve literally just watched a film all the way through without a drop out. 1 film is too early to confirm a fix, but it’s the first time in a long time I’ve managed to get though one without a drop whilst having the audio through the RP. 👍🏻
> 
> p.s although a new hdmi board, it’s still the 7 input version on the altitude.


Fingers crossed.

Pretty sure we had you use Input 7 when we communicated on your issues before, but if you are not on input 7, please try input 7 on the Trinnov.

For our demo theater with the standard output voltage swing to an older 7 input card in the Trinnov, using Trinnov input 7, I had a couple (rare) dropouts until I increased the output swing with MENU 0718 on the audio only Output 1, or MENU 0728 for the A+V Output 2. With the larger swing we do not get audio drops (other than a very rare one with DTS HD, and there is a known issue in the Altitude for DTS HD that Trinnov is working on) using either 5348 output.

If you stay with output 2, I recommend increasing the 5348 Output 2 voltage swing with MENU 0728.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Fingers crossed.
> 
> Pretty sure we had you use Input 7 when we communicated on your issues before, but if you are not on input 7, please try input 7 on the Trinnov.
> 
> For our demo theater with the standard output voltage swing to an older 7 input card in the Trinnov, using Trinnov input 7, I had a couple (rare) dropouts until I increased the output swing with MENU 0718 on the audio only Output 1, or MENU 0728 for the A+V Output 2. With the larger swing we do not get audio drops (other than a very rare one with DTS HD, and there is a known issue in the Altitude for DTS HD that Trinnov is working on) using either 5348 output.
> 
> If you stay with output 2, I recommend increasing the 5348 Output 2 voltage swing with MENU 0728.


I had not seen your recommendation on this problem before. I too have a Trinnov Altitude 16, though it is newer with 8 inputs. I'd had many dropouts using LRP Audio Only to the Trinnov (using input 1). I will follow these instructions using Output 2 to Trinnov input 1, and of course Output 3 for video to my RS3000, along with the two menu settings you have specified.

Would you recommend that I instead use the LRP Audio Only output to the Trinnov instead, and revert back to standard output swing on output 1 or use Menu 0718 for this test? 
How can I tell just what the current output swing settings are for each of the LRP outputs?


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> I had not seen your recommendation on this problem before. I too have a Trinnov Altitude 16, though it is newer with 8 inputs. I'd had many dropouts using LRP Audio Only to the Trinnov (using input 1). I will follow these instructions using Output 2 to Trinnov input 1, and of course Output 3 for video to my RS3000, along with the two menu settings you have specified.
> 
> Would you recommend that I instead use the LRP Audio Only output to the Trinnov instead, and revert back to standard output swing on output 1 or use Menu 0718 for this test?
> How can I tell just what the current output swing settings are for each of the LRP outputs?


I had previously tried the higher voltage swing with no luck on output 1 for audio. I’ve just completed another 90 minutes of viewing on output 2, so far I’ve had no issues and I’ve tried a few different codecs so I’d recommend trying this. I have tried every possible way using output 1 with no success, so far on output 2 I’ve had a longer run (3 hours) than I’d ever managed previously with no drops.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> I had previously tried the higher voltage swing with no luck on output 1 for audio. I’ve just completed another 90 minutes of viewing on output 2, so far I’ve had no issues and I’ve tried a few different codecs so I’d recommend trying this. I have tried every possible way using output 1 with no success, so far on output 2 I’ve had a longer run (3 hours) than I’d ever managed previously with no drops.


Thanks for your testing results. Interesting. I gather the "output swing" is not having the intended effect for what ails audio dropouts, at least on that specific output. Guess we'll have to leave it to Jim to figure out and test. I don't know if he's ever received any updated boards for his Trinnov, comparable to, at minimum, what you now have.


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> Thanks for your testing results. Interesting. I gather the "output swing" is not having the intended effect for what ails audio dropouts, at least on that specific output. Guess we'll have to leave it to Jim to figure out and test. I don't know if he's ever received any updated boards for his Trinnov, comparable to, at minimum, what you now have.


My new board is still the 7 input version I had previously and Jim has now.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> My new board is still the 7 input version I had previously and Jim has now.


So, it would seem, all other things being equal (not always true) that the LRP Audio Only output in conjunction with the Trinnov (whether 7 or 8 inputs) should behave the same way. If Jim can get the Audio Only output to work without a problem, with his Trinnov, then I'm wondering what is wrong with your Trinnov and mine when attempting the same setup.


----------



## Bill DePalma

asharma said:


> Correct Sir…Aspect=Auto…


Also a dumb question but if this method provides a 12% light increase why is it not simply the default method to use? What are the downsides and does it work for screens other than 1.235 (I have a 2.00)


----------



## asharma

Bill DePalma said:


> Also a dumb question but if this method provides a 12% light increase why is it not simply the default method to use? What are the downsides and does it work for screens other than 1.235 (I have a 2.00)


Damn fine question! Others will need to chime in…


----------



## aguy

Bill DePalma said:


> Also a dumb question but if this method provides a 12% light increase why is it not simply the default method to use? What are the downsides and does it work for screens other than 1.235 (I have a 2.00)


I guess some prefer to keep pixel accurate or at least 2:1 scaling for 1080p material 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> So, it would seem, all other things being equal (not always true) that the LRP Audio Only output in conjunction with the Trinnov (whether 7 or 8 inputs) should behave the same way. If Jim can get the Audio Only output to work without a problem, with his Trinnov, then I'm wondering what is wrong with your Trinnov and mine when attempting the same setup.


Every HDMI connection is a system, and every aspect of the "system" varies between installations. Everything matters, such as is _all_ equipment on one power circuit, is only one power conditioner used, or baring that does the system use true isolation transformers to make sure that the distant projector does not create a ground loop to other equipment, or is there a "DC power supply AC phase offset ground current," or is there some issue with the DC power supply for a piece of equipment, etc.? And we have not even started to talk about HDMI cables, audio processor HDMI input design issues, projector HDMI input design issues, HDMI cable variations, a normally good cable that has become marginal due to aging, an HDMI plug that looks fully inserted but isn't (more common than you might imagine), output and input EQ of the various devices, etc.

The difference between audio only on Output 1, and audio plus video on Output 2, is that the audio only has a slower clock, and since the video is a constant color a repeating HDMI signal pattern. The audio and video output is going to be either 9 GHz or 18 GHz, and have a more randomly transitioning pattern. A repeating pattern is like the military marching in formation in lock step across a bridge. It can create consistent nulls to peaks, and might mean a random pattern is better. However, a random pattern can create rare nulls and peaks in the signal at the receiving device as well. We have actually seen a marginal connection go out on the same frame of a movie since that frame has a particularly difficult transition pattern. This just means one might be better than the other but you cannot really predict which one is best except by testing both. However, given my experience helping people with audio dropouts, I do think the audio + video is the more likely to work in a marginal system, with a marginal audio processor HDMI input design.

I use the Quantum Data 780D to test cables before I sell them because I believe it has a worst-case "pathologically difficult HDMI signal pattern." I have cables that fail on the Quantum Data 780D, that pass on other cable testers. I believe this is because the 780D test is closer to a worst case test. If cables pass on the 780D then I feel I can sell them knowing they are truly optimal for 18 GHz signal rates.

===== 

Once I increased the "Pro audio only Output 1" swing, I have not had dropout issues driving the Trinnov (other than the very rare DTS HD drop which I attribute to the known Trinnov issue). So increasing the output swing in the Lumagen Demo Theater did have a positive effect. 

Neither do I have issues with the 5348 Output 2 with both audio and video with the increased swing.

===== 

FAQ: If both Output 1 audio only and Output 2 audio + video work from the 5348, which is better?

Either output has exceptionally low jitter, and I do not think there is an advantage to using one over the other if both work. Of course if Output 2 with audio and video works better then choose it.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> Once I increased the "Pro audio only Output 1" swing, I have not had dropout issues driving the Trinnov (other than the very rare DTS HD drop which I attribute to the known Trinnov issue). So increasing the output swing in the Lumagen Demo Theater did have a positive effect.


Is there a way to do that via menu? I'm asking, because unless I unplug the IR cable in the back of the unit (which is not trivial in my case), I can't send it custom remote commands from my device.


----------



## SJHT

bjorg said:


> Is there a way to do that via menu? I'm asking, because unless I unplug the IR cable in the back of the unit (which is not trivial in my case), I can't send it custom remote commands from my device.


You have to do it with MENU 0718 (only with a 5348). No GUI way, but if you have those commands on your remote (regardless of control system), it will work. Did that to mine today. I swear the audio slightly improved in some of my testing but must have been dreaming….


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> You have to do it with MENU 0718 (only with a 5348). No GUI way, but if you have those commands on your remote (regardless of control system), it will work. Did that to mine today. I swear the audio slightly improved in some of my testing but must have been dreaming….


Ah! I have a Series 4, so not applicable anyway. Thanks!


----------



## asharma

jrp said:


> You can use the _Output Setup Menu_ but we have some special codes to make this faster (These codes are in the manual under "Direct Codes"):
> 
> Select maximum output rate (these first two commands allow only 50 or 60 Hertz output):
> 
> MENU 0873 for 9 GHz maximum
> MENU 0874 for 18 GHz maximum
> 
> Then to add 24 Hertz output, and select the horizontal output resolution:
> 
> MENU 0872 for 3840 by 2160
> MENU 0877 for 4096 by 2160
> 
> You also need to use the Output->Styles->Style0->Mask and Shrink->Shrink to adjust which pixels are active for your screen output aspect, or for a 2.35 screen without a lens enter MENU 0827.
> 
> Save your changes.


Good morning, I think the MENU 0877 for 4096 changed my 3D output settings…Is there an easy way to get these back? Also, I’m assuming 3D will work in 4096 mode? Thanks


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> Is there a way to do that via menu? I'm asking, because unless I unplug the IR cable in the back of the unit (which is not trivial in my case), I can't send it custom remote commands from my device.


I have asked Patrick to add a menu command for this, but do not think it has been added yet.


----------



## jrp

asharma said:


> Good morning, I think the MENU 0877 for 4096 changed my 3D output settings…Is there an easy way to get these back? Also, I’m assuming 3D will work in 4096 mode? Thanks


Since 3D only applies to 1080 in and out, I would not expect the 3D settings to have changed by MENU 0877. Check the Output Setup menu to see if the 3D settings are what you would expect.

3840 or 4096 is not supported for 3D stereoscopic output. However, if you have a two-projector 3D system using passive glasses, then the Pro will output either the left or right eye from teh 1080 3D content as either 3840 or 4096 wide.


----------



## fatherom

fatherom said:


> Perhaps a dumb question, but I'll ask. I'm assuming this switch to outputting 4096 (as opposed to 3840) to gain brightness really only makes sense for those with 2.35:1 screens? I have a 16:9 screen (albeit with masking panels) with my Sony 885. But it seems that switching to 4096 when using a 16:9 screen would result in the image being stretched (although jrp mentioned using mask and shrink...I could see shrink maybe bringing the image back into the proper "shape", not entirely sure what masking would do).


Bump


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jrp

fatherom said:


> Bump


The output aspect for 4096 by 2160 is 4096/2160 = 1.9. So it is not generally appropriate for a 16:9 (= 1.78:1) screen. An exception might be if you have a masking screen and can mask to a 1.9 aspect ratio.

However, it _might_ be a reason to choose a 1.90 screen. With a 1.9 screen you could stretch 16:9 content using the "output aspect per input aspect" to fill the screen (set output aspect to 1.78 for 4:3 and 16:9, 1.9 for 1.9 content, and 2.0 for 2.0, 2.2, 2.35, and 2.40 content). For 16:9 content this would be a 6.9% horizontal stretch, which would be difficult to even notice when looking for it. For 2.0 content this is a 5% vertical stretch. Video purists will of course ignore this suggestion.


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## fatherom

jrp said:


> The output aspect for 4096 by 2160 is 4096/2160 = 1.9. So it is not generally appropriate for a 16:9 (= 1.78:1) screen. An exception might be if you have a masking screen and can mask to a 1.9 aspect ratio.
> 
> However, it _might_ be a reason to choose a 1.90 screen. With a 1.9 screen you could stretch 16:9 content using the "output aspect per input aspect" to fill the screen (set output aspect to 1.78 for 4:3 and 16:9, 1.9 for 1.9 content, and 2.0 for 2.0, 2.2, 2.35, and 2.40 content). For 16:9 content this would be a 6.9% horizontal stretch, which would be difficult to even notice when looking for it. For 2.0 content this is a 5% vertical stretch. Video purists will of course ignore this suggestion.


And just to be sure I understand. For those with 2.35 screens (even without anamorphic lens) it makes sense to output 4096 (in order to gain brightness over 3840) because you're using lens positioning and settings on the projector to have the image not be distorted (width or height wise) but able to get the benefits of the added brightness. Is this correct?


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Every HDMI connection is a system, and every aspect of the "system" varies between installations. Everything matters, such as is _all_ equipment on one power circuit, is only one power conditioner used, or baring that does the system use true isolation transformers to make sure that the distant projector does not create a ground loop to other equipment, or is there a "DC power supply AC phase offset ground current," or is there some issue with the DC power supply for a piece of equipment, etc.? And we have not even started to talk about HDMI cables, audio processor HDMI input design issues, projector HDMI input design issues, HDMI cable variations, a normally good cable that has become marginal due to aging, an HDMI plug that looks fully inserted but isn't (more common than you might imagine), output and input EQ of the various devices, etc.
> 
> The difference between audio only on Output 1, and audio plus video on Output 2, is that the audio only has a slower clock, and since the video is a constant color a repeating HDMI signal pattern. The audio and video output is going to be either 9 GHz or 18 GHz, and have a more randomly transitioning pattern. A repeating pattern is like the military marching in formation in lock step across a bridge. It can create consistent nulls to peaks, and might mean a random pattern is better. However, a random pattern can create rare nulls and peaks in the signal at the receiving device as well. We have actually seen a marginal connection go out on the same frame of a movie since that frame has a particularly difficult transition pattern. This just means one might be better than the other but you cannot really predict which one is best except by testing both. However, given my experience helping people with audio dropouts, I do think the audio + video is the more likely to work in a marginal system, with a marginal audio processor HDMI input design.
> 
> I use the Quantum Data 780D to test cables before I sell them because I believe it has a worst-case "pathologically difficult HDMI signal pattern." I have cables that fail on the Quantum Data 780D, that pass on other cable testers. I believe this is because the 780D test is closer to a worst case test. If cables pass on the 780D then I feel I can sell them knowing they are truly optimal for 18 GHz signal rates.
> 
> =====
> 
> Once I increased the "Pro audio only Output 1" swing, I have not had dropout issues driving the Trinnov (other than the very rare DTS HD drop which I attribute to the known Trinnov issue). So increasing the output swing in the Lumagen Demo Theater did have a positive effect.
> 
> Neither do I have issues with the 5348 Output 2 with both audio and video with the increased swing.
> 
> =====
> 
> FAQ: If both Output 1 audio only and Output 2 audio + video work from the 5348, which is better?
> 
> Either output has exceptionally low jitter, and I do not think there is an advantage to using one over the other if both work. Of course if Output 2 with audio and video works better then choose it.


So, given your experience, compared with Mark's, and, as you indicate, with the myriad variations/complications of system, it may well be both possible and valuable to use Output 1 in my situation to send Audio Only to the Trinnov. Guess I'll need to try this before reverting to using Output 2 for audio to the Trinnov.


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## garyolearysteele

sjschaff said:


> So, given your experience, compared with Mark's, and, as you indicate, with the myriad variations/complications of system, it may well be both possible and valuable to use Output 1 in my situation to send Audio Only to the Trinnov. Guess I'll need to try this before reverting to using Output 2 for audio to the Trinnov.


Just my two cents, I’ve been down the road trying to solve the drops in my setup for more than a year and comparing notes with others offline to try find a reasonable solution. 
Frustratingly, I’ve not managed to solve it. However one common thing across all those I’ve spoken with is increasing cable length helps. There are recommendations from lumagen that have changed over time but 3m is where it’s at now, it’s been my experience that going longer helps.. I’m not an installer so my experience is of course limited to my cinema. 3m may be the better answer technically, but I’m on a 7.6m from Belden (bluejeans cables) and I get 1 drop per month now, vs 1 per movie. Going to a 4 or 5 meter or longer may help you too. I only bring this up since changing cables will often be the advice and some may do what I did and buy a 3m cable and see no change. Going to 4m did help and 7.6m even more so. Output 2 has been successful for Mark so far and maybe that’s the magic we’ve been hoping for..


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## sjschaff

garyolearysteele said:


> Just my two cents, I’ve been down the road trying to solve the drops in my setup for more than a year and comparing notes with others offline to try find a reasonable solution.
> Frustratingly, I’ve not managed to solve it. However one common thing across all those I’ve spoken with is increasing cable length helps. There are recommendations from lumagen that have changed over time but 3m is where it’s at now, it’s been my experience that going longer helps.. I’m not an installer so my experience is of course limited to my cinema. 3m may be the better answer technically, but I’m on a 7.6m from Belden (bluejeans cables) and I get 1 drop per month now, vs 1 per movie. Going to a 4 or 5 meter or longer may help you too. I only bring this up since changing cables will often be the advice and some may do what I did and buy a 3m cable and see no change. Going to 4m did help and 7.6m even more so. Output 2 has been successful for Mark so far and maybe that’s the magic we’ve been hoping for..


Appreciate your experiences and thoughts on this. I've been using Jim's recommendations on cabling over quite some time. These began with a prior JVC projector and evolved from passive to active (where I am today with the Tributaries active one). And I'm currently using the 3 meter versions of the top line Tributaries for all my sources as well as from the LRP to the Trinnov. So, it may turn out to be more about what Jim has found with the "swing" than anything else. Time will tell.


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## Mark Burton

garyolearysteele said:


> Just my two cents, I’ve been down the road trying to solve the drops in my setup for more than a year and comparing notes with others offline to try find a reasonable solution.
> Frustratingly, I’ve not managed to solve it. However one common thing across all those I’ve spoken with is increasing cable length helps. There are recommendations from lumagen that have changed over time but 3m is where it’s at now, it’s been my experience that going longer helps.. I’m not an installer so my experience is of course limited to my cinema. 3m may be the better answer technically, but I’m on a 7.6m from Belden (bluejeans cables) and I get 1 drop per month now, vs 1 per movie. Going to a 4 or 5 meter or longer may help you too. I only bring this up since changing cables will often be the advice and some may do what I did and buy a 3m cable and see no change. Going to 4m did help and 7.6m even more so. Output 2 has been successful for Mark so far and maybe that’s the magic we’ve been hoping for..





sjschaff said:


> Appreciate your experiences and thoughts on this. I've been using Jim's recommendations on cabling over quite some time. These began with a prior JVC projector and evolved from passive to active (where I am today with the Tributaries active one). And I'm currently using the 3 meter versions of the top line Tributaries for all my sources as well as from the LRP to the Trinnov. So, it may turn out to be more about what Jim has found with the "swing" than anything else. Time will tell.


Using output 2 I’ve managed to get through another film with no dropout, that’s 3 in a row now, I’m pretty sure that’s the longest I’ve managed in a row without a dropout whilst having the lumagen in the chain.

still too early to confirm it’s resolved, definitely better and feeling slightly optimistic.


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## sjschaff

Quite promising. If I might ask, based on Jim's last post re: all the system related complexity, what is in your chain including how you've powered all the important components, cabling with lengths. My personal setup is driven by a Shunyata Denali power conditioner (along with an older conditioner that is just for digital components), the aforementioned Tributaries cables and after market power cords from Shunyata. Sources are Tivo Roamio, Zappiti HD ACE player (wired to Synology DS1819+ NAS) along with the LRP 5348 and Trinnov 16, and ATI 4000 5way amp. The system is launched via a Harmony Elite. This has been the one constant bugaboo in my system. Sporadically the Lumagen fails to "find" the sources and projector. Only way to fix the problem is to put the LRP into standby and then restart it. Sometimes if I power up the projector and allow it to fully arrive to blue screen I can then enable the LRP successfully. Ain't technology fun?


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## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> Quite promising. If I might ask, based on Jim's last post re: all the system related complexity, what is in your chain including how you've powered all the important components, cabling with lengths. My personal setup is driven by a Shunyata Denali power conditioner (along with an older conditioner that is just for digital components), the aforementioned Tributaries cables and after market power cords from Shunyata. Sources are Tivo Roamio, Zappiti HD ACE player (wired to Synology DS1819+ NAS) along with the LRP 5348 and Trinnov 16, and ATI 4000 5way amp. The system is launched via a Harmony Elite. This has been the one constant bugaboo in my system. Sporadically the Lumagen fails to "find" the sources and projector. Only way to fix the problem is to put the LRP into standby and then restart it. Sometimes if I power up the projector and allow it to fully arrive to blue screen I can then enable the LRP successfully. Ain't technology fun?


Main sources are appletv and Zappiti ACE (I’ve also tried zidoo uhd3000 with identical results to the Zappiti), Zappiti nasrip (tried usb drives as well through the nas, both mkv and iso), isol-8 powerlines (dc blockers), no need for power conditioners in the UK, electric supply is far more reliable over here, various cables, but currently with a 5m monoprice for audio and some unbranded 2m uhd cables for video (these have been the most reliable out of all the cables I’ve tried including tributaries, audioquest and QED all at various lengths. The QED cables were terrible, but the tributaries werent much better giving me around 2-3 drops per film), trinnov amplitude power amps, keces p8 power supply (identical results with the supplied lumagen power supply), sony 760es, power cords supplied by futureshop in the UK, harmony elite remote.


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## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> Main sources are appletv and Zappiti ACE (I’ve also tried zidoo uhd3000 with identical results to the Zappiti), Zappiti nasrip (tried usb drives as well through the nas, both mkv and iso), isol-8 powerlines (dc blockers), no need for power conditioners in the UK, electric supply is far more reliable over here, various cables, but currently with a 5m monoprice for audio and some unbranded 2m uhd cables for video (these have been the most reliable out of all the cables I’ve tried including tributaries, audioquest and QED all at various lengths. The QED cables were terrible, but the tributaries werent much better giving me around 2-3 drops per film), trinnov amplitude power amps, keces p8 power supply (identical results with the supplied lumagen power supply), sony 760es, power cords supplied by futureshop in the UK, harmony elite remote.


Interesting. We've got a similar level of components (Morris of ATI designed the amps for Trinnov, I believe). Interestingly, my LRP to video projector (currently a JVC RS3000) cables have run the gamut. My prior JVC was the real problem child which had me using passive and active ones of varied lengths. Never really the cable I believe but, as others found out, JVC's implementation was at issue. I'm relatively new to Zappiti having come from Nvidia Shield and experiencing numerous issues, especially with software apps in both dropouts and limitations in formats. Only issue right now with Zappiti will be remedied with upcoming DV products line. Hoping they offer a complete video bypass rather than their version of upsampling that's automatic. At least they'll support Dolby Vision and HDR 10+. I've found that some devices benefit from better power than others. Seems to come down to how much focus they put on their power supplies. The JVC projector has a tendency to put crap into the line, so either using a noise reducing power cable or finding a separate circuit in the room (if you've got that option) is certainly best. Whoever built my place back in the 70's didn't do a stellar job in isolation. Best thing about the Tributaries is their connectors which probably will maintain a solid connection over time and require less cleaning at the junction.


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## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> Interesting. We've got a similar level of components (Morris of ATI designed the amps for Trinnov, I believe). Interestingly, my LRP to video projector (currently a JVC RS3000) cables have run the gamut. My prior JVC was the real problem child which had me using passive and active ones of varied lengths. Never really the cable I believe but, as others found out, JVC's implementation was at issue. I'm relatively new to Zappiti having come from Nvidia Shield and experiencing numerous issues, especially with software apps in both dropouts and limitations in formats. Only issue right now with Zappiti will be remedied with upcoming DV products line. Hoping they offer a complete video bypass rather than their version of upsampling that's automatic. At least they'll support Dolby Vision and HDR 10+. I've found that some devices benefit from better power than others. Seems to come down to how much focus they put on their power supplies. The JVC projector has a tendency to put crap into the line, so either using a noise reducing power cable or finding a separate circuit in the room (if you've got that option) is certainly best. Whoever built my place back in the 70's didn't do a stellar job in isolation. Best thing about the Tributaries is their connectors which probably will maintain a solid connection over time and require less cleaning at the junction.


Why does the Zappiti supporting DV and HDR10+ matter? Your projector doesn't support them and neither does the Lumagen, so it is much ado about nothing unless you are using a flat panel.


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## sjschaff

It's more about the source material playback, I believe. Unless I'm wrong, in the absence of the Zappiti supporting playback, it doesn't matter what the JVC can or cannot do with what it receives, right? And in the long run, I'm likely to want a target playback device that can display these formats, or more advanced playback, even if that entails abandoning projectors in favor of a 100" diag. panel. Same was true when I abandoned audio processors I owned that couldn't deal with Dolby and other formats.


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## jrp

fatherom said:


> And just to be sure I understand. For those with 2.35 screens (even without anamorphic lens) it makes sense to output 4096 (in order to gain brightness over 3840) because you're using lens positioning and settings on the projector to have the image not be distorted (width or height wise) but able to get the benefits of the added brightness. Is this correct?


Yes, you are correct.

It can make sense, but with the above mentioned caveats.


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## garyolearysteele

sjschaff said:


> Interesting. We've got a similar level of components (Morris of ATI designed the amps for Trinnov, I believe). Interestingly, my LRP to video projector (currently a JVC RS3000) cables have run the gamut. My prior JVC was the real problem child which had me using passive and active ones of varied lengths. Never really the cable I believe but, as others found out, JVC's implementation was at issue. I'm relatively new to Zappiti having come from Nvidia Shield and experiencing numerous issues, especially with software apps in both dropouts and limitations in formats. Only issue right now with Zappiti will be remedied with upcoming DV products line. Hoping they offer a complete video bypass rather than their version of upsampling that's automatic. At least they'll support Dolby Vision and HDR 10+. I've found that some devices benefit from better power than others. Seems to come down to how much focus they put on their power supplies. The JVC projector has a tendency to put crap into the line, so either using a noise reducing power cable or finding a separate circuit in the room (if you've got that option) is certainly best. Whoever built my place back in the 70's didn't do a stellar job in isolation. Best thing about the Tributaries is their connectors which probably will maintain a solid connection over time and require less cleaning at the junction.


_Zappiti has a direct out option which bypasses all of the processing. Weirdly enough, it’s the new DV supporting chips that have introduced issues. Most common DV format has a compatibility layer to allow HDR playback when DV isn’t supported. My Zappiti passed that with no issue. I then upgraded to a DV supporting Zidoo which also has a direct out option. That had playback issues with DV such as raised blacks, stuttering, and green flashing. That has all now been fixed with an update, however the new Zappiti also has the same issues which they have also released a patch for. It sounds like the issue is in the Realtek and Dolby SDK, the surprising thing though was the trusty old Zappiti didn’t have an issue. There are however some other issues with VC-1 encodes and probably with the other DV format that doesn’t have the compatibility layer (can’t remember without looking it up), but generally I’ve found it reliable ._


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## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> It's more about the source material playback, I believe. Unless I'm wrong, in the absence of the Zappiti supporting playback, it doesn't matter what the JVC can or cannot do with what it receives, right? And in the long run, I'm likely to want a target playback device that can display these formats, or more advanced playback, even if that entails abandoning projectors in favor of a 100" diag. panel. Same was true when I abandoned audio processors I owned that couldn't deal with Dolby and other formats.


have no idea what you mean by the first sentence. In a projection based system like yours, the Zappiti supporting DV or HDR10+ means absolutely nothing. The output stream will always default to HDR10. If you just want future compatibility for another display, that is a different matter.


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## sjschaff

Kris Deering said:


> have no idea what you mean by the first sentence. In a projection based system like yours, the Zappiti supporting DV or HDR10+ means absolutely nothing. The output stream will always default to HDR10. If you just want future compatibility for another display, that is a different matter.


Well I it's the lack of specific technology in the Zappiti to support DV and HDR10+ that I was referring to for use with such sources and flat panel displays. If/when a 100+ inch diagonal comes on the scene that's when I might replace my projector.


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## rilyas77

anyone else having problems with video freezing on Lumagen 4242 with latest firmware and Apple TV 4K, it just seems to be my Apple TV 4K that is having problems, it is the latest version. Other sources such as Panasonic 820 UHD player or Zappiti 4k pro are working fine.


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## asharma

jrp said:


> You can use the _Output Setup Menu_ but we have some special codes to make this faster (These codes are in the manual under "Direct Codes"):
> 
> Select maximum output rate (these first two commands allow only 50 or 60 Hertz output):
> 
> MENU 0873 for 9 GHz maximum
> MENU 0874 for 18 GHz maximum
> 
> Then to add 24 Hertz output, and select the horizontal output resolution:
> 
> MENU 0872 for 3840 by 2160
> MENU 0877 for 4096 by 2160
> 
> You also need to use the Output->Styles->Style0->Mask and Shrink->Shrink to adjust which pixels are active for your screen output aspect, or for a 2.35 screen without a lens enter MENU 0827.
> 
> Save your changes.


Hi Jim, I’m amazed by the amount of difference this tweak has made in my viewing experience…I gained 4FC and 13.1% more brightness by my measurements…The POP is very noticeable…is there something else at play here that is making this look this good? Does the 100mm lens or the optical path in general on my RS3000 pick up this much steam with a 13% light increase Or is it a pleasant combination of things?


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## 187crew003

asharma said:


> Hi Jim, I’m amazed by the amount of difference this tweak has made in my viewing experience…I gained 4FC and 13.1% more brightness by my measurements…The POP is very noticeable…is there something else at play here that is making this look this good? Does the 100mm lens or the optical path in general on my RS3000 pick up this much steam with a 13% light increase Or is it a pleasant combination of things?


to piggyback this question. Is it only the rs3000 this benefits. How about the rs600?


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## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> to piggyback this question. Is it only the rs3000 this benefits. How about the rs600?


The 600 has a 16x9 imaging chip, so this does not apply.


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## OzHDHT

asharma said:


> Hi Jim, I’m amazed by the amount of difference this tweak has made in my viewing experience…I gained 4FC and 13.1% more brightness by my measurements…The POP is very noticeable…is there something else at play here that is making this look this good? Does the 100mm lens or the optical path in general on my RS3000 pick up this much steam with a 13% light increase Or is it a pleasant combination of things?


You've also gained from not having to zoom quite as much, so that's likely an aspect of what you're seeing. A little taste of sorts of what it's like when you have DCR and no longer have to zoom out the image...


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## jrp

asharma said:


> Hi Jim, I’m amazed by the amount of difference this tweak has made in my viewing experience…I gained 4FC and 13.1% more brightness by my measurements…The POP is very noticeable…is there something else at play here that is making this look this good? Does the 100mm lens or the optical path in general on my RS3000 pick up this much steam with a 13% light increase Or is it a pleasant combination of things?


From a human factors point of view the human eye iris is very adaptable. Once you get used to either the before or after change to 4096 wide, both should like excellent. However, when you make the change you will see the "pop" as you noticed. My opinion is you notice a "pop" in the image initially, but after viewing for a while, either setting would give you excellent results as your eye's iris adapts.

I recently removed the Paladin DCR lens from the Lumagen theater due to having too short a throw ratio of 1.38:1. We ended up with too much barrel distortion such that I had to increase the overscan. Because of this we were not getting the level of extra light that people with throw ratios of 1.6 and higher would get. I mention this because without the lens the light output is now down to 61 nits (RS4500 mid-laser 14 foot diagonal 2.40 Stewart Studiotek 130 screen). I was not thrilled about this low a light level, but honestly after I spent some time with it, it looks excellent, and all barrel distortion is gone (which I am immensely thankful for). Also, when I want light I get in the range of 100 nits with high-laser, but with more fan noise. Or for the "big game day" I zoom to the screen height, and can watch the 16:9 game at about 130 nits with high laser.

==== 

Something else to consider:

With 4096 wide output, you get more light, but your black level is 13% higher as well. With an RS3000 and its excellent static contrast, this may not be an issue.

What I notice without the Paladin lens in the Lumagen Demo Theater is that for 16:9 content (e.g. Game Of Thrones, season 8, episode 3) on our 2.40 non-masked screen is that the black side bars are darker and less noticeable. With the lens I measured about 8400:1 static contrast with the RS4500. Without the lens, I measure about 9500:1 static contrast. So, we actually got a double win. Less maximum light without the lens reduced black level, and then higher static contrast reduced black level further. I am all about great black levels and this was a nice improvement.


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## MDesigns

jrp said:


> Something else to consider:
> 
> With 4096 wide output, you get more light, but your black level is 13% higher as well. With an RS3000 and its excellent static contrast, this may not be an issue.


Another option is to adjust the iris to get same white level with lower black level than before.


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## asharma

jrp said:


> With 4096 wide output, you get more light, but your black level is 13% higher as well. With an RS3000 and its excellent static contrast, this may not be an issue.


Thanks Jim…can’t say I noticed any change in black floor but will definitely keep it in mind…I’m clearly mesmerized by the gain in POP…I was watching pristine content last night and all I was thinking was what nice inky inky blacks! The more and more I see “pristine” content, the more I’m weary of garbage in garbage out wanting me to be critical of the projector or tonemapping but not much can be done in that case…Feed the projector pristine content and everyone will be amazed…


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## ShaharT

Are there adverse effects if I output HDR in SDR container, without running a 3D LUT calibration?

My projector comes somewhat close to the DCI-P3 gamut. 

I have the Lumgaen output in SDR2020 (for both CMS0 and CMS1), and my projector is set to 2020 colorspace and 2.4 gamma.

Without a 3D LUT, how does the Lumagen map colors within the source material (say, 4K HDR film) that fall outside my projector's gamut capability? I mean, how can the Lumagen know what part of the gamut my projector covers, for it to map those outside colors back within the gamut my PJ covers? 

Is it the case that without a 3D LUT, when I chose a SDR2020 colorspace in the lumagen, that colors not covered by my PJ will fall "outside", and if I do a 3D LUT, then the Lumagen will map these back within the gamut capability my PJ covers?

And what does it mean for a color to "fall outside" my pj's gamut? Let's say there's a special kind of blue at the near end of the 2020 gamut - what will I see on my PJ that only gets close to P3? Where would it be mapped to? Is it something the PJ does, whenever it gets an input of this "special blue" it can't produce within its gamut? I.e. it's the pj's business to handle input colors outside it's supported gamut?

If so, then without a 3D lut, should I set output colorspace to SDR709 (for both CMS0 and CMS1) instead of SDR2020? In which case I assume the Lumagen will map colors outside the 709 gamut, back into the 709 gamut (and do that better than how my pj would handle such colors which are outside its capability) without a 3D lut, right? However, I'll be 'losing out' on the extra gamut my projector does cover.

Sorry if I'm mixing things up, I was trying to get my head over this as I was writing the question.


----------



## LJG

jrp said:


> From a human factors point of view the human eye iris is very adaptable. Once you get used to either the before or after change to 4096 wide, both should like excellent. However, when you make the change you will see the "pop" as you noticed. My opinion is you notice a "pop" in the image initially, but after viewing for a while, either setting would give you excellent results as your eye's iris adapts.
> 
> I recently removed the Paladin DCR lens from the Lumagen theater due to having too short a throw ratio of 1.38:1. We ended up with too much barrel distortion such that I had to increase the overscan. Because of this we were not getting the level of extra light that people with throw ratios of 1.6 and higher would get. I mention this because without the lens the light output is now down to 61 nits (RS4500 mid-laser 14 foot diagonal 2.40 Stewart Studiotek 130 screen). I was not thrilled about this low a light level, but honestly after I spent some time with it, it looks excellent, and all barrel distortion is gone (which I am immensely thankful for). Also, when I want light I get in the range of 100 nits with high-laser, but with more fan noise. Or for the "big game day" I zoom to the screen height, and can watch the 16:9 game at about 130 nits with high laser.
> 
> ====
> 
> Something else to consider:
> 
> With 4096 wide output, you get more light, but your black level is 13% higher as well. With an RS3000 and its excellent static contrast, this may not be an issue.
> 
> What I notice without the Paladin lens in the Lumagen Demo Theater is that for 16:9 content (e.g. Game Of Thrones, season 8, episode 3) on our 2.40 non-masked screen is that the black side bars are darker and less noticeable. With the lens I measured about 8400:1 static contrast with the RS4500. Without the lens, I measure about 9500:1 static contrast. So, we actually got a double win. Less maximum light without the lens reduced black level, and then higher static contrast reduced black level further. I am all about great black levels and this was a nice improvement.


This is all quite interesting as I have a 2.0 4 way Masking Constant Image Area setup, with masking and zooming for for all content. Theoretically, I could set 4096 output for 1.9 up to 2.5 with zooming/masking and leave 1.78 and 1.85 set to 3840. The Sony 5000ES has lens memory for zoom/shift/focus, and my Stewart Screen has Masking presets from 1,78 up to 2.5. Could be interesting


----------



## omarank

ShaharT said:


> Are there adverse effects if I output HDR in SDR container, without running a 3D LUT calibration?


There should not be any adverse effects (assuming the entire color processing chain is set up properly), except for any inaccuracy in colors which would be there on an uncalibrated projector.




ShaharT said:


> My projector comes somewhat close to the DCI-P3 gamut.
> 
> I have the Lumgaen output in SDR2020 (for both CMS0 and CMS1), and my projector is set to 2020 colorspace and 2.4 gamma.
> 
> Without a 3D LUT, how does the Lumagen map colors within the source material (say, 4K HDR film) that fall outside my projector's gamut capability? I mean, how can the Lumagen know what part of the gamut my projector covers, for it to map those outside colors back within the gamut my PJ covers?


With the Lumagen output set to SDR2020, Lumagen won't do any gamut mapping in this case (i.e. for Rec2020 ST2084 HDR content in SDR container after tone mapping). 

Your projector will do the gamut mapping to its native color space. How well it is done can only be checked by taking color measurements of your projector.




ShaharT said:


> Is it the case that without a 3D LUT, when I chose a SDR2020 colorspace in the lumagen, that colors not covered by my PJ will fall "outside", and if I do a 3D LUT, then the Lumagen will map these back within the gamut capability my PJ covers?


No (assuming the 3DLUT is for Rec2020 target and the projector is set to Rec2020 color space). 

Lumagen's gamut mapping will engage though if you create a 3DLUT for a target space other than Rec2020. So, if, for example, you create a LUT for DCI-P3 D65 target (with your projector's color space set to the native gamut), Lumagen (in combination with the LUT) will do the gamut mapping instead of the projector.




ShaharT said:


> And what does it mean for a color to "fall outside" my pj's gamut? Let's say there's a special kind of blue at the near end of the 2020 gamut - what will I see on my PJ that only gets close to P3? Where would it be mapped to? Is it something the PJ does, whenever it gets an input of this "special blue" it can't produce within its gamut? I.e. it's the pj's business to handle input colors outside it's supported gamut?


When a color falls outside the native gamut of a display, it implies that the display just cannot physically output that color (no matter what digital input you provide).

And yes, the projector should ideally do a proper gamut mapping of the input colors to its native gamut.

Where an out of gamut color is mapped depends on the gamut mapping algorithm being used.




ShaharT said:


> If so, then without a 3D lut, should I set output colorspace to SDR709 (for both CMS0 and CMS1) instead of SDR2020? In which case I assume the Lumagen will map colors outside the 709 gamut, back into the 709 gamut (and do that better than how my pj would handle such colors which are outside its capability) without a 3D lut, right? However, I'll be 'losing out' on the extra gamut my projector does cover.


You can use a 3DLUT targeting Rec2020, with the color space in the projector settings set to the native gamut (Profile Off in JVC Projectors). You can alternatively use a LUT targeting DCI-P3 D65, and let the Lumagen do the mapping of the source colors to DCI-P3.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Kris Deering said:


> The 600 has a 16x9 imaging chip, so this does not apply.


Kris,
You are probably right about your statement, but the JVC manual sort of implies it will project 4096x2160. See the attached image from page 76 of the RS540 manual and comment. Maybe there are extra pixels on those panels based on the diagram. Either there are extra pixels, or they would need to truncate pixels to maintain ratio. Thanks.


----------



## Sittler27

jrp said:


> I recently removed the Paladin DCR lens from the Lumagen theater due to having too short a throw ratio of 1.38:1. We ended up with too much barrel distortion such that I had to increase the overscan.


That is interesting. I'm at 1.42:1 and don't notice any barrel distortion whatsoever on moving or static content.
Only time I see the barrel is when projecting an overscan pattern.


----------



## aguy

I have a question about throw distances. At what point are we measuring from on the projector? The front of the projector lens ?

And if so when putting an anamorphic lens in front are we then measuring from the front of the anamorphic lens or still from the projector lens ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MDesigns

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> Kris,
> You are probably right about your statement, but the JVC manual sort of implies it will project 4096x2160. See the attached image from page 76 of the RS540 manual and comment. Maybe there are extra pixels on those panels based on the diagram. Either there are extra pixels, or they would need to truncate pixels to maintain ratio. Thanks.
> View attachment 3187299


You can input 4096 wide signal, but the extra over 3840 get cropped just like you can see in this pic:


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> . We ended up with too much barrel distortion such that I had to increase the overscan. Because of this we were not getting the level of extra light that people with throw ratios of 1.6 and higher would get. I mention this because without the lens the light output is now down to 61 nits (RS4500 mid-laser 14 foot diagonal 2.40 Stewart Studiotek 130 screen). I was not thrilled about this low a light level, but honestly after I spent some time with it, it looks excellent, and all barrel distortion is gone *(which I am immensely thankful for)*.


Time to add geometry correction!!


----------



## blake

jrp said:


> From a human factors point of view the human eye iris is very adaptable. Once you get used to either the before or after change to 4096 wide, both should like excellent. However, when you make the change you will see the "pop" as you noticed. My opinion is you notice a "pop" in the image initially, but after viewing for a while, either setting would give you excellent results as your eye's iris adapts.
> 
> I recently removed the Paladin DCR lens from the Lumagen theater due to having too short a throw ratio of 1.38:1. We ended up with too much barrel distortion such that I had to increase the overscan. Because of this we were not getting the level of extra light that people with throw ratios of 1.6 and higher would get. I mention this because without the lens the light output is now down to 61 nits (RS4500 mid-laser 14 foot diagonal 2.40 Stewart Studiotek 130 screen). I was not thrilled about this low a light level, but honestly after I spent some time with it, it looks excellent, and all barrel distortion is gone (which I am immensely thankful for). Also, when I want light I get in the range of 100 nits with high-laser, but with more fan noise. Or for the "big game day" I zoom to the screen height, and can watch the 16:9 game at about 130 nits with high laser.
> 
> ====
> 
> Something else to consider:
> 
> With 4096 wide output, you get more light, but your black level is 13% higher as well. With an RS3000 and its excellent static contrast, this may not be an issue.
> 
> What I notice without the Paladin lens in the Lumagen Demo Theater is that for 16:9 content (e.g. Game Of Thrones, season 8, episode 3) on our 2.40 non-masked screen is that the black side bars are darker and less noticeable. With the lens I measured about 8400:1 static contrast with the RS4500. Without the lens, I measure about 9500:1 static contrast. So, we actually got a double win. Less maximum light without the lens reduced black level, and then higher static contrast reduced black level further. I am all about great black levels and this was a nice improvement.


Jim - so you are not going to use your DCR lens anymore on your rs4500 (since without it black floor and contrast is better, no barrel distortion ) ? 

You are okay with only 61 nits (18 fL), even for HDR? 

Would you use the DCR if barrel distortion was not an issue ?

I am debating adding a DCR to my rs4500 / LRP but this makes me second guess if it’s truly worth it !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jqmn

omarank said:


> Where an out of gamut color is mapped depends on the gamut mapping algorithm being used.


As you say, if done correctly they should just be clipped at the selected gamut's boundary edge. In a sense how well this is actually done doesn't really matter though does it?


----------



## omarank

jqmn said:


> As you say, if done correctly they should just be clipped at the selected gamut's boundary edge. In a sense how well this is actually done doesn't really matter though does it?


Clipping may manifest as an image artifact. So, it does matter how gamut mapping is done.


----------



## jqmn

omarank said:


> Clipping may manifest as an image artifact. So, it does matter how gamut mapping is done.


Haven't seen this but OK. What does the artifact look like? in any event I thought CS or LS just clips back to the nearest boundary point. Does it do something different?


----------



## omarank

jqmn said:


> Haven't seen this but OK. What does the artifact look like? in any event I thought CS or LS just clips back to the nearest boundary point. Does it do something different?


You might see bands/blobs of solid color, weird hue shifts etc. in the areas of the image where gamut clipping happens.

When you generate a calibration LUT using LS or CS, gamut mapping algorithm(s) is used by default. You can disable it though.


----------



## Craig Peer

asharma said:


> Thanks Jim…can’t say I noticed any change in black floor but will definitely keep it in mind…I’m clearly mesmerized by the gain in POP…I was watching pristine content last night and all I was thinking was what nice inky inky blacks! The more and more I see “pristine” content, the more I’m weary of garbage in garbage out wanting me to be critical of the projector or tonemapping but not much can be done in that case…Feed the projector pristine content and everyone will be amazed…


I just watched " Blade " on 4K Blu-ray ( Zappiti technically ) and the black levels at times were as dark as when I had my RS600. But I use laser dimming on my RS4500 - Jim does not. No complaints with black levels here. And I'm just passed the minimum throw - 1.41:1. Barrel distortion is minor. Note that I have a separate 16:9 screen - no black bars. And I remove the lens for 16:9 anyway.


----------



## jrp

blake said:


> Jim - so you are not going to use your DCR lens anymore on your rs4500 (since without it black floor and contrast is better, no barrel distortion ) ?
> 
> You are okay with only 61 nits (18 fL), even for HDR?
> 
> Would you use the DCR if barrel distortion was not an issue ?
> 
> I am debating adding a DCR to my rs4500 / LRP but this makes me second guess if it’s truly worth it !


While I totally understand people wanting more light by using a Paladin DCR lens, I will not be putting an anamorphic lens back in the Lumagen Demo system. It may make sense for your system, and is a good way to increase light output for a 2.40 screen. So, yes I would purchase a Paladin DCR in the right circumstances, which I consider a throw ratio of 1.6 or higher and the desire for more light output.

I am very happy with the picture quality at 61 nits. I would prefer 100 nits, but movies and video look excellent at 61 nits since we have a well light controlled theater, eyes adapt to that level of brightness. I have decided that if I want to go for 100 nits, I will use High-laser, and build a hush box for the RS4500 projector.

Or, I am considering purchasing a JVC NZ9, and selling the Lumagen Demo Theater JVC RS4500 along with a Radiance Pro 5348, with the calibration to a Studiotek 130 done by Kris Deering, to fund the purchase. The NZ9 is quieter than the RS4500 in high laser and would not need a hush box. Since a hush box has not happened so far due to my wife exercising her veto power, the NZ9 is an attractive solution to get to 100 nits.


----------



## Geof

I have a comment and a question...

First my setup....output 1 from the 4242 goes to an AVP and then to a Projector (30' cable). Output 2 goes to an HDMI extender which feeds the bedroom TV. (Audio and Video are are set for both outputs).

Comment....I just recently tried sending a 4K/24p to the projector. The cable between the AVP and Projector was a 30' Premium Certified Cable by Monoprice. works great at 1080p buIt had dropouts at 4K. I tried connecting directly to the RP and it showed the same issue. So, I followed Jim's advice (somewhere in this thread) and purchased an AVProStore 10m AOC 18GHz cable and bingo, it works perfectly... The thing that attracted me to this particular "Bullet Train" was it needed no external power/adapters/etc.

Here's my question...
If I pause the DVR (or Oppo) for some length of time* the audio does not consistently resume when the video starts. This happens when either output 1 or output 2 is being used. Are there any settings i could try (I did try changing the audio EDID setting but it didn't seem to help) ?

*indeterminate, I haven't timed it


----------



## jrp

Geof said:


> I have a comment and a question...
> 
> First my setup....output 1 from the 4242 goes to an AVP and then to a Projector (30' cable). Output 2 goes to an HDMI extender which feeds the bedroom TV. (Audio and Video are are set for both outputs).
> 
> Comment....I just recently tried sending a 4K/24p to the projector. The cable between the AVP and Projector was a 30' Premium Certified Cable by Monoprice. works great at 1080p but had dropouts at 4K. I tried connecting directly to the RP and it showed the same issue. So, I followed Jim's advice (somewhere in this thread) and purchased an AVProStore 10m AOC 18GHz cable and bingo, it works perfectly... The thing that attracted me to this particular "Bullet Train" was it needed no external power/adapters/etc.
> 
> Here's my question...
> If I pause the DVR (or Oppo) for some length of time* the audio does not consistently resume when the video starts. This happens when either output 1 or output 2 is being used. Are there any settings i could try (I did try changing the audio EDID setting but it didn't seem to help) ?
> 
> *indeterminate, I haven't timed it


This might be an issue with having two display devices, especially if one is in "Standby" while watching the other. What happens (as I have posted about previously) is the device in standby can go into what I refer to as "Zombie mode" and is creating so many interrupts that the Pro has trouble getting any real work done.

Please test by disconnecting the HDMI cable to the TV, and seeing if the issue continues to occur watching the projector. If not this would confirm my suspicion. If the issue continues, there is likely some interrupt being missed in the audio processor from the source since the audio did not change format, but only went away during the pause. Note: For audio the Pro passes the HDMI through (it is converted to I2S and back) without any processing.

If the issue does not occur with only one video device connected, I can discuss work-arounds. If it continues, we need more work to try to determine the cause. If it does continue, after you lose audio try a Pro output restart (ALT and then PREV). See if you get the audio back. This restarts the output which generates an HDMI interrupt(s) in the audio processor, which in turn can force it to reacquire HDMI and so get audio back working.

Let me know what you find out and if needed we can keep at this issue to work on a resolution.


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> This might be an issue with having two display devices, especially if one is in "Standby" while watching the other. What happens (as I have posted about previously) is the device in standby can go into what I refer to as "Zombie mode" and is creating so many interrupts that the Pro has trouble getting any real work done.
> 
> Please test by disconnecting the HDMI cable to the TV, and seeing if the issue continues to occur watching the projector. If not this would confirm my suspicion. If the issue continues, there is likely some interrupt being missed in the audio processor from the source since the audio did not change format, but only went away during the pause. Note: For audio the Pro passes the HDMI through (it is converted to I2S and back) without any processing.
> 
> If the issue does not occur with only one video device connected, I can discuss work-arounds. If it continues, we need more work to try to determine the cause. If it does continue, after you lose audio try a Pro output restart (ALT and then PREV). See if you get the audio back. This restarts the output which generates an HDMI interrupt(s) in the audio processor, which in turn can force it to reacquire HDMI and so get audio back working.
> 
> Let me know what you find out and if needed we can keep at this issue to work on a resolution.


Excellent. I will try that and let you know. One question...(something I was going to try)..currently the output menu is set to enable A+V on both outputs....I was going to try setting "N" on the output that's not being used...

Yes, I understand the RP is doing no audio processing.

I will add that I tried restarting the DVR, the RP, and the TV (individually, one at a time, on separate occasions) and restarting the RP is the only thing that restores audio (i did not know the ALT -> PREV sequence) so I suspect you may right about zombie mode....


----------



## DVD MAN

I love the convenience of my Kalidescape Strato but if the video and audio is not on par with the performance of a disc when using my Panasonic 9000 then that's a problem.
I was evaluating the Strato on my JVC NX9 and Lumagen Pro combo when I noticed an issue comparing the UHD 4k blu ray disc of Star Wars A New Hope. I notice a red bleed out on the Strato. Is this chroma delay from the Strato? Or is it an encode issue on the file? Kalidecape initial reaction was maybe it is a set up issue on the Lumagen. I immediately informed them that I had removed the Lumagen from the chain and the issue was still there. Kalidecape did eventually see the issue and informed me that it is not a hardware problem but indeed a file issue and is now correcting it.


----------



## EVH78

DVD MAN said:


> I love the convenience of my Kalidescape Strato but if the video and audio is not on par with the performance of a disc when using my Panasonic 9000 then that's a problem.
> I was evaluating the Strato on my JVC NX9 and Lumagen Pro combo when I noticed an issue comparing the UHD 4k blu ray disc of Star Wars A New Hope. I notice a red bleed out. is this chroma delay from the Strato? Or is it an encode issue on the file? Kalidecape initial reaction was maybe it is a set up issue on the Lumagen. I immediately informed them that I had removed the Lumagen from the chain and the issue was still there. Kalidecape did eventually see the issue and informed me that it is not a hardware problem but indeed a file issue and is now correcting the issu


I would say clearly 1:0 for UHD Blu ray! How is that scene on your Zappiti Pro?


----------



## jont-uk

jrp said:


> If the issue does not occur with only one video device connected, I can discuss work-arounds. If it continues, we need more work to try to determine the cause. If it does continue, after you lose audio try a Pro output restart (ALT and then PREV). See if you get the audio back. This restarts the output which generates an HDMI interrupt(s) in the audio processor, which in turn can force it to reacquire HDMI and so get audio back working.
> 
> Let me know what you find out and if needed we can keep at this issue to work on a resolution.


Will be interested if this results in a suitable fix Jim - I've been working with Gordon (and a couple of other UK AVS members) over here to resolve the audio dropouts on my system when I have my Sony TV and Epson projector both connected ... current solution is to manually connect the correct output HDMI for the screen I want to watch on ... not very hi-tech !


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> Since a hush box has not happened so far *due to my wife exercising her veto power*, the NZ9 is an attractive solution to get to 100 nits.


Ahh yes, the all-powerful position of Minister of the Interior, lol.


----------



## jazzrock

After cable swap I have lost multichannel

Last night I installed all new HDMI cables, total of 4 8k Tributaries that were suggested by jrp. .I did this t try to eliminate the audio dropouts that happen about once a movie. That is the nly change I made. But I lost the ability to play multichannel music.

My system is;

Oppo 203
Baetis Media Computer
Apple TV

All sources into the Lumagen Pro 4446 +

Lumagen video to Sony 5000

Lumagen Audio to Datasat rs 20i


I can listen to two channel music file via Jriver on the Baetis USING THE DATASAT. ("Datasat Music” Zone)

Multichannel music files will NOT play via Jriver on the Baetis Computer USING THE DATASAT. The same input.

I can watch Bluray Video disc with multi channel audio successfully.

I can watch Cable tv via Jriver through Baetis Computer with multi-channel audio successfully.

This is really odd. All I did was take out the old HDMI cables and put the new Tributaries in. Then powered the system up. It is so strange. Joe from baetus look at the computer and everything there looks normal. It sees that multi-channel are available and indicates it it successfully sending a signal. Yet no audio from any of the 5 channels when trying to play a hi res music file. But using the same input on the datasat…not changing anything…I can select and play a two channel music file.

I reset the Lumagen last night and pulled the power cord for about 45 seconds and that didn’t help. Does anyone have any suggestions?!


----------



## sjschaff

jazzrock said:


> After cable swap I have lost multichannel
> 
> Last night I installed all new HDMI cables, total of 4 8k Tributaries that were suggested by jrp. .I did this t try to eliminate the audio dropouts that happen about once a movie. That is the nly change I made. But I lost the ability to play multichannel music.
> 
> My system is;
> 
> Oppo 203
> Baetis Media Computer
> Apple TV
> 
> All sources into the Lumagen Pro 4446 +
> 
> Lumagen video to Sony 5000
> 
> Lumagen Audio to Datasat rs 20i
> 
> 
> I can listen to two channel music file via Jriver on the Baetis USING THE DATASAT. ("Datasat Music” Zone)
> 
> Multichannel music files will NOT play via Jriver on the Baetis Computer USING THE DATASAT. The same input.
> 
> I can watch Bluray Video disc with multi channel audio successfully.
> 
> I can watch Cable tv via Jriver through Baetis Computer with multi-channel audio successfully.
> 
> This is really odd. All I did was take out the old HDMI cables and put the new Tributaries in. Then powered the system up. It is so strange. Joe from baetus look at the computer and everything there looks normal. It sees that multi-channel are available and indicates it it successfully sending a signal. Yet no audio from any of the 5 channels when trying to play a hi res music file. But using the same input on the datasat…not changing anything…I can select and play a two channel music file.
> 
> I reset the Lumagen last night and pulled the power cord for about 45 seconds and that didn’t help. Does anyone have any suggestions?!


Betting it's something to do with the


jazzrock said:


> After cable swap I have lost multichannel
> 
> Last night I installed all new HDMI cables, total of 4 8k Tributaries that were suggested by jrp. .I did this t try to eliminate the audio dropouts that happen about once a movie. That is the nly change I made. But I lost the ability to play multichannel music.
> 
> My system is;
> 
> Oppo 203
> Baetis Media Computer
> Apple TV
> 
> All sources into the Lumagen Pro 4446 +
> 
> Lumagen video to Sony 5000
> 
> Lumagen Audio to Datasat rs 20i
> 
> 
> I can listen to two channel music file via Jriver on the Baetis USING THE DATASAT. ("Datasat Music” Zone)
> 
> Multichannel music files will NOT play via Jriver on the Baetis Computer USING THE DATASAT. The same input.
> 
> I can watch Bluray Video disc with multi channel audio successfully.
> 
> I can watch Cable tv via Jriver through Baetis Computer with multi-channel audio successfully.
> 
> This is really odd. All I did was take out the old HDMI cables and put the new Tributaries in. Then powered the system up. It is so strange. Joe from baetus look at the computer and everything there looks normal. It sees that multi-channel are available and indicates it it successfully sending a signal. Yet no audio from any of the 5 channels when trying to play a hi res music file. But using the same input on the datasat…not changing anything…I can select and play a two channel music file.
> 
> I reset the Lumagen last night and pulled the power cord for about 45 seconds and that didn’t help. Does anyone have any suggestions?!


This post by Jim may suggest the issue is with the Datasat or configuration (cabling from LRP to Datasat).  #13,286
Seems that if you're playing from the LRP out to the Datasat, unless it's some odd EDID result between the Datasat and LRP, you shouldn't be running into any problems...unless it's necessary to rerun some config on the Datasat side or power sequence thing...


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> This might be an issue with having two display devices, especially if one is in "Standby" while watching the other. What happens (as I have posted about previously) is the device in standby can go into what I refer to as "Zombie mode" and is creating so many interrupts that the Pro has trouble getting any real work done.
> 
> Please test by disconnecting the HDMI cable to the TV, and seeing if the issue continues to occur watching the projector. If not this would confirm my suspicion. If the issue continues, there is likely some interrupt being missed in the audio processor from the source since the audio did not change format, but only went away during the pause. Note: For audio the Pro passes the HDMI through (it is converted to I2S and back) without any processing.
> 
> If the issue does not occur with only one video device connected, I can discuss work-arounds. If it continues, we need more work to try to determine the cause. If it does continue, after you lose audio try a Pro output restart (ALT and then PREV). See if you get the audio back. This restarts the output which generates an HDMI interrupt(s) in the audio processor, which in turn can force it to reacquire HDMI and so get audio back working.
> 
> Let me know what you find out and if needed we can keep at this issue to work on a resolution.


At this point I've tried both the TV (pulling the PJ HDMI plug) and the Projector (pulling the TV HDMI plug). I've had no audio resumption issues with only one output connected. So, zombie mode it appears (to be certain I'd need to do more testing to gain confidence it never occurs with only one output connected but that appears that is the case).

Right now I have "B" and "B" set in the output menu.....
I'm going to set it so the unneeded output is off....... Output 1 is connected to the AVP which is turned off when I'm using Output 2.. In this case setting output 1 to "N" only turns off the audio and I have no issues with video so this seems like maybe it might help. Likewise when I'm using output 1 I'll set output 2 to "N" (obviously the turns off both A+V).


----------



## jazzrock

sjschaff said:


> Betting it's something to do with the
> 
> This post by Jim may suggest the issue is with the Datasat or configuration (cabling from LRP to Datasat).  #13,286
> Seems that if you're playing from the LRP out to the Datasat, unless it's some odd EDID result between the Datasat and LRP, you shouldn't be running into any problems...unless it's necessary to rerun some config on the Datasat side or power sequence thing...


Thank you very much for responding and pointing me to this info. Hopefully I’ll find a solution within this info.


----------



## jazzrock

sjschaff said:


> Betting it's something to do with the
> 
> This post by Jim may suggest the issue is with the Datasat or configuration (cabling from LRP to Datasat).  #13,286
> Seems that if you're playing from the LRP out to the Datasat, unless it's some odd EDID result between the Datasat and LRP, you shouldn't be running into any problems...unless it's necessary to rerun some config on the Datasat side or power sequence thing...


I read through a large portion of the thread that the link leads to and do not see anything related to my issue. Am i over looking something?!


----------



## jrp

Jazzrock:

If you moved the HDMI cable to the Datasat to any output other than Output 1, you need to (and should in any case) use the command MENU 0943 and select OK if the screen says "Press OK to enable common audio formats." This manually programs the Pro to report the advanced codecs.

If it instead says "Press okay to restore ..." then press EXIT since you have already manually enabled common audio formats.

The issue is EDID for audio in pass-back mode (the default) is from the device on Output 1. If there is no device on Output 1, or it is not the Datasat, you will not get the advanced codec's since there is nothing on output 1 to have an EDID that says they are supported.

Of course it might be something else, but check this and see.


----------



## jazzrock

jrp said:


> Jazzrock:
> 
> If you moved the HDMI cable to the Datasat to any output other than Output 1, you need to (and should in any case) use the command MENU 0943 and select OK if the screen says "Press OK to enable common audio formats." This manually programs the Pro to report the advanced codecs.
> 
> If it instead says "Press okay to restore ..." then press EXIT since you have already manually enabled common audio formats.
> 
> The issue is EDID for audio in pass-back mode (the default) is from the device on Output 1. If there is no device on Output 1, or it is not the Datasat, you will not get the advanced codec's since there is nothing on output 1 to have an EDID that says they are supported.
> 
> Of course it might be something else, but check this and see.


Thank you, jrp. I’ll try that tonight.


----------



## Mark Burton

@jrp thanks for your suggestions over the weekend, I’ve now managed 6 films without any audio dropouts, this is by far the longest I have managed to go without one with the lumagen in the chain. Hoping it’s a permanent fix 🤞🏼


----------



## jazzrock

jrp said:


> Jazzrock:
> 
> If you moved the HDMI cable to the Datasat to any output other than Output 1, you need to (and should in any case) use the command MENU 0943 and select OK if the screen says "Press OK to enable common audio formats." This manually programs the Pro to report the advanced codecs.
> 
> If it instead says "Press okay to restore ..." then press EXIT since you have already manually enabled common audio formats.
> 
> The issue is EDID for audio in pass-back mode (the default) is from the device on Output 1. If there is no device on Output 1, or it is not the Datasat, you will not get the advanced codec's since there is nothing on output 1 to have an EDID that says they are supported.
> 
> Of course it might be something else, but check this and see.


I did menu 0943 and we did in fact already manually enable the common audio formats. I rebooted everything and tried again to listen to a 5.1 file. This time the front L&R produced audio but all other channels remained silent. I wasn’t able to do this before. Don’t know if that’s significant. 

The HDMI FROM the Lumagen is in the Datasat in #2. That’s where it’s been since it was installed. Everything else works…… 5.1 audio from the same media computer using Jriver playing Cable tv. 5.1 from the oppo 203 works as well. Any other suggestions? I’m at a total loss for next steps.


----------



## jazzrock

jrp said:


> Jazzrock:
> 
> If you moved the HDMI cable to the Datasat to any output other than Output 1, you need to (and should in any case) use the command MENU 0943 and select OK if the screen says "Press OK to enable common audio formats." This manually programs the Pro to report the advanced codecs.
> 
> If it instead says "Press okay to restore ..." then press EXIT since you have already manually enabled common audio formats.
> 
> The issue is EDID for audio in pass-back mode (the default) is from the device on Output 1. If there is no device on Output 1, or it is not the Datasat, you will not get the advanced codec's since there is nothing on output 1 to have an EDID that says they are supported.
> 
> Of course it might be something else, but check this and see.


I just rebooted everything again and I unplugged the Lumagen for about 45 seconds. Now when I play a 5.1 music file the L&R channels do not produce sound. It did a few minutes ago… just 2 but they played. Now nothing again.


----------



## jrp

jazzrock said:


> I just rebooted everything again and I unplugged the Lumagen for about 45 seconds. Now when I play a 5.1 music file the L&R channels do not produce sound. It did a few minutes ago… just 2 but they played. Now nothing again.


We do not have other reports like this. Doesn't mean no bugs, but I would expect more reports if so.

I do not recall if the source device is HD or UHD. If the source is a 1080p device, go into the Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Video EDID->Video Limit and set it to 1080p for that input (save changes). There are a number of HD devices whose EDID parsers were written before 4k, and they do not comprehend that the EDID can be larger due to the 4k information. The audio portion of the EDID moves for an 18 GHz EDID, and the source EDID parser does figure out where it is in the data structure. Changing to a 1080p EDID uses a 1080 EDID that the HD sources can correctly parse. The symptom is that audio becomes nonfunctional, or just not reliable. This is true of at least some DirecTV 1080p boxes, but also other HD sources.

To eliminate the chance that this is an issue in the Radiance Pro, you would want to temporarily connect a different audio processor and see if it has correct audio (if a HD source do the above first). This is an excellent test but of course can only be done if you happen to have an old AVR to test with.

You can try going back to an older release. You load an old release just like a new release. Go back maybe six months or so.

FYI: The Pro does not process the audio, and the audio goes directly from an HDMI input chip to an HDMI output chip. So, the Pro software does not intervene in the audio path, except to restart the audio whenever the Pro HDMI input chip detects an audio interrupt specifying a change.

If you can't get this sorted, you can email the lumagen.com support email to start a more direct dialog if you like.


----------



## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> @jrp thanks for your suggestions over the weekend, I’ve now managed 6 films without any audio dropouts, this is by far the longest I have managed to go without one with the lumagen in the chain. Hoping it’s a permanent fix 🤞🏼


Excellent news. If this continues it would be yet one more case of sending both audio and video to the audio processor fixing audio.

If you happen to get a dropout, please check if the source is DTS HD because the Trinnov issue I mentioned would likely be the cause. No known issue for the Trinnov with ATMOS. So an ATMOS dropout would not be explained by the Trinnov bug.

Thanks for reporting back.


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> Excellent news. If this continues it would be yet one more case of sending both audio and video to the audio processor fixing audio.
> 
> If you happen to get a dropout, please check if the source is DTS HD because the Trinnov issue I mentioned would likely be the cause. No known issue for the Trinnov with ATMOS. So an ATMOS dropout would not be explained by the Trinnov bug.
> 
> Thanks for reporting back.


Will do, I’m also on the very latest trinnov beta software with the Dts bug fix.


----------



## DVD MAN

EVH78 said:


> I would say clearly 1:0 for UHD Blu ray! How is that scene on your Zappiti Pro?


Every other source looks exactly like the Panasonic no issue including Apple TV, Oppo 205 and the Zappiti.


----------



## J.P

Kris Deering said:


> Except output 3 on the 5348 is the ideal output with the most benefit. It is the output you WANT to use for the absolute best performance from the 5348.


Kris or Jim can you please elaborate on this ? For some, 2 individual outputs are important, what benefit is missing with output-2 ?


----------



## jrp

J.P said:


> Kris or Jim can you please elaborate on this ? For some, 2 individual outputs are important, what benefit is missing with output-2 ?


For either the 444X series with two 18 GHz outputs, or the 5348, the lowest jitter is achieved using one output for each 18 GHz output chip (which drives two outputs).

This is one reason why we recommend the highest numbered output for video and Output 1 for audio.

For the Radiance Pro 444X 18 GHz output, with one output connected the output data jitter at 18 GHz was measured at 80 pS. Compare this to the HDMI specification for 18 GHz at 102 pS, and a competitive product measured at about 450 pS.

Now to your question:

For the 5348, use Output 3 for video. This was measured at 45 pS data jitter, and 10 pS clock jitter. Then if you use _either_ (but not both) Output 1 or Output 2 for audio, the jitter should match Output 3. 

If you use _both_ Output 1 and Output 2 on the 5348, the data jitter was measured at 65 pS, which is still the best for HDMI we know about excepting Output 3 (or Output 1, or Output 2, by themselves).

Based on recent posts about audio + video helping dropouts for some marginal HDMI inputs, using Output 2 for audio can make sense, but then you need to also use MENU 0943 to "Enable common audio formats" if appropriate (i.e. your audio processor supports all common audio formats including ATMOS).

For the 5348 the conclusion is Output 3 for video, and either Output 1 or 2 for audio. And of course you can use both Output1 and Output 2 and still have industry leading output jitter.


----------



## bjorg

For those who've done RadiancePro programming, can you confirm this? It seems odd that '9' would leave the message indefinitely. That's more commonly the behavior of '0', which is otherwise useless. I haven't gotten around to testing it yet, so I was curious if someone knew already. Thx!


----------



## jazzrock

jrp said:


> We do not have other reports like this. Doesn't mean no bugs, but I would expect more reports if so.
> 
> I do not recall if the source device is HD or UHD. If the source is a 1080p device, go into the Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Video EDID->Video Limit and set it to 1080p for that input (save changes). There are a number of HD devices whose EDID parsers were written before 4k, and they do not comprehend that the EDID can be larger due to the 4k information. The audio portion of the EDID moves for an 18 GHz EDID, and the source EDID parser does figure out where it is in the data structure. Changing to a 1080p EDID uses a 1080 EDID that the HD sources can correctly parse. The symptom is that audio becomes nonfunctional, or just not reliable. This is true of at least some DirecTV 1080p boxes, but also other HD sources.
> 
> To eliminate the chance that this is an issue in the Radiance Pro, you would want to temporarily connect a different audio processor and see if it has correct audio (if a HD source do the above first). This is an excellent test but of course can only be done if you happen to have an old AVR to test with.
> 
> You can try going back to an older release. You load an old release just like a new release. Go back maybe six months or so.
> 
> FYI: The Pro does not process the audio, and the audio goes directly from an HDMI input chip to an HDMI output chip. So, the Pro software does not intervene in the audio path, except to restart the audio whenever the Pro HDMI input chip detects an audio interrupt specifying a change.
> 
> If you can't get this sorted, you can email the lumagen.com support email to start a more direct dialog if you like.


As it turns out a driver was updated a couple of days ago on my media computer. This update was directly causing my problem, as strange as it was. Was not easy to find as the system normally indicated problems sending signals but all systems seemed to be working normally. Rolled back to the previous driver version. All good now! Thank you for responding.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> For either the 444X series with two 18 GHz outputs, or the 5348, the lowest jitter is achieved using one output for each 18 GHz output chip (which drives two outputs).
> 
> This is one reason why we recommend the highest numbered output for video and Output 1 for audio.
> 
> For the Radiance Pro 444X 18 GHz output, with one output connected the output data jitter at 18 GHz was measured at 80 pS. Compare this to the HDMI specification for 18 GHz at 102 pS, and a competitive product measured at about 450 pS.
> 
> Now to your question:
> 
> For the 5348, use Output 3 for video. This was measured at 45 pS data jitter, and 10 pS clock jitter. Then if you use _either_ (but not both) Output 1 or Output 2 for audio, the jitter should match Output 3.
> 
> If you use _both_ Output 1 and Output 2 on the 5348, the data jitter was measured at 65 pS, which is still the best for HDMI we know about excepting Output 3 (or Output 1, or Output 2, by themselves).
> 
> Based on recent posts about audio + video helping dropouts for some marginal HDMI inputs, using Output 2 for audio can make sense, but then you need to also use MENU 0943 to "Enable common audio formats" if appropriate (i.e. your audio processor supports all common audio formats including ATMOS).
> 
> For the 5348 the conclusion is Output 3 for video, and either Output 1 or 2 for audio. And of course you can use both Output1 and Output 2 and still have industry leading output jitter.


Jim, I have a 4446 with a Rev 2.0 18GHz output card (Outputs 3 & 4) and a Rev 1.1 9GHz output card (Outputs 1 & 2) along with a Rev 2.2 mainboard. I assume the Rev 2.0 card has microwave capacitors while the Rev1.1 card does not based on your post.

What would be my lowest jitter audio output option when using Output 4 for video? Output 3 (microwave capacitors but using shared card) or Output 1 (no microwave capacitors but using non-shared card)?


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV:

I would recommend Output 4 for video and Output 1 for audio. Then if needed you can turn both audio and video on for Output 1. I believe this will get you the best results for both audio and video.


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> This might be an issue with having two display devices, especially if one is in "Standby" while watching the other. What happens (as I have posted about previously) is the device in standby can go into what I refer to as "Zombie mode" and is creating so many interrupts that the Pro has trouble getting any real work done.
> 
> Please test by disconnecting the HDMI cable to the TV, and seeing if the issue continues to occur watching the projector. If not this would confirm my suspicion. If the issue continues, there is likely some interrupt being missed in the audio processor from the source since the audio did not change format, but only went away during the pause. Note: For audio the Pro passes the HDMI through (it is converted to I2S and back) without any processing.
> 
> If the issue does not occur with only one video device connected, I can discuss work-arounds. If it continues, we need more work to try to determine the cause. If it does continue, after you lose audio try a Pro output restart (ALT and then PREV). See if you get the audio back. This restarts the output which generates an HDMI interrupt(s) in the audio processor, which in turn can force it to reacquire HDMI and so get audio back working.
> 
> Let me know what you find out and if needed we can keep at this issue to work on a resolution.


An Update: Since I've turned off the output not in use I've had no further problems with audio not resuming after a [lengthy] pause. Thanks much for the help!


----------



## Clark Burk

Geof said:


> An Update: Since I've turned off the output not in use I've had no further problems with audio not resuming after a [lengthy] pause. Thanks much for the help!


Good to hear. Nice to know the team at Lumagen is aware of many of the HDMI problems.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Every HDMI connection is a system, and every aspect of the "system" varies between installations. Everything matters, such as is _all_ equipment on one power circuit, is only one power conditioner used, or baring that does the system use true isolation transformers to make sure that the distant projector does not create a ground loop to other equipment, or is there a "DC power supply AC phase offset ground current," or is there some issue with the DC power supply for a piece of equipment, etc.? And we have not even started to talk about HDMI cables, audio processor HDMI input design issues, projector HDMI input design issues, HDMI cable variations, a normally good cable that has become marginal due to aging, an HDMI plug that looks fully inserted but isn't (more common than you might imagine), output and input EQ of the various devices, etc.
> 
> The difference between audio only on Output 1, and audio plus video on Output 2, is that the audio only has a slower clock, and since the video is a constant color a repeating HDMI signal pattern. The audio and video output is going to be either 9 GHz or 18 GHz, and have a more randomly transitioning pattern. A repeating pattern is like the military marching in formation in lock step across a bridge. It can create consistent nulls to peaks, and might mean a random pattern is better. However, a random pattern can create rare nulls and peaks in the signal at the receiving device as well. We have actually seen a marginal connection go out on the same frame of a movie since that frame has a particularly difficult transition pattern. This just means one might be better than the other but you cannot really predict which one is best except by testing both. However, given my experience helping people with audio dropouts, I do think the audio + video is the more likely to work in a marginal system, with a marginal audio processor HDMI input design.
> 
> I use the Quantum Data 780D to test cables before I sell them because I believe it has a worst-case "pathologically difficult HDMI signal pattern." I have cables that fail on the Quantum Data 780D, that pass on other cable testers. I believe this is because the 780D test is closer to a worst case test. If cables pass on the 780D then I feel I can sell them knowing they are truly optimal for 18 GHz signal rates.
> 
> =====
> 
> Once I increased the "Pro audio only Output 1" swing, I have not had dropout issues driving the Trinnov (other than the very rare DTS HD drop which I attribute to the known Trinnov issue). So increasing the output swing in the Lumagen Demo Theater did have a positive effect.
> 
> Neither do I have issues with the 5348 Output 2 with both audio and video with the increased swing.
> 
> =====
> 
> FAQ: If both Output 1 audio only and Output 2 audio + video work from the 5348, which is better?
> 
> Either output has exceptionally low jitter, and I do not think there is an advantage to using one over the other if both work. Of course if Output 2 with audio and video works better then choose it.


Followed your instructions for Output 2 swing on my 5348. Still getting the occasional dropouts with my Trinnov A16 (not DTS HD source material). Typically happens once or twice a film and in the more “complex” passages/transitions. Will go ahead and use Output 1 and increase its output swing to see if it too exhibits the same issue.


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> Good to hear. Nice to know the team at Lumagen is aware of many of the HDMI problems.


I sure they've seen way too many HDMI issues for their liking....


----------



## aguy

sjschaff said:


> Followed your instructions for Output 2 swing on my 5348. Still getting the occasional dropouts with my Trinnov A16 (not DTS HD source material). Typically happens once or twice a film and in the more “complex” passages/transitions. Will go ahead and use Output 1 and increase its output swing to see if it too exhibits the same issue.


What is your source material ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sjschaff

aguy said:


> What is your source material ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


4K HD sources. Via both Zappiti HD PRO ACE rips from wired Synology NAS, and Panasonic UB900 discs. 

Most recent one was Dune 1984 (which seems more cartoonish than I'd remembered watching in Blu-ray or theater years ago).


----------



## aguy

sjschaff said:


> 4K HD sources. Via both Zappiti HD PRO ACE rips from wired Synology NAS, and Panasonic UB900 discs.
> 
> Most recent one was Dune 1984 (which seems more cartoonish than I'd remembered watching in Blu-ray or theater years ago).


Ok. Well those sources should be fine. They aren’t the issue. Zappiti plays high bitrate atmos fine 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sjschaff

aguy said:


> Ok. Well those sources should be fine. They aren’t the issue. Zappiti plays high bitrate atmos fine
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes. The only issue I ran into with the Zappiti is in using its dedicated Audio Only output with the Trinnov for DD+. The guys in France at Zappiti agreed with what I found, after they did testing. Not sure their going to fix it with the new hardware, since their focus has been on supporting Dolby Vision and HDR10+. So far there are not too many DD+ sources I've run into. Nonetheless I'm using their generic input to avoid issues.


----------



## Clark Burk

A possible variable is the difference in the rips people are doing. Even if people are doing MKV rips or M2ts rips there is no standard for what we are all using. Waaay to many variables to consider…..


----------



## sjschaff

Clark Burk said:


> A possible variable is the difference in the rips people are doing. Even if people are doing MKV rips or M2ts rips there is no standard for what we are all using. Waaay to many variables to consider…..


Guess it's possible, though as I recall MKV and M2ts are really just containers for various audio formats. Seems that dealing with a container wouldn't pose such problems. I would think that the level of complexity of a scene, and the processing speed of the LRP might be at play in managing the audio along with the video. But I can replay the scene without problems. However doing so is not a good test, as it doesn't replicate the ongoing "chain" of processing. Also, I never have this problem if I put the Trinnov ahead of the LRP. So, it would appear that using the Trinnov as the switch, and simply having the LRP receive the video, relieves the LRP of the added burden of managing both streams. 

The dropouts are consistent with my prior video player (Nvidia Shield) and audio processor (Anthem D2V) experiences with the LRP. So, I'll just give the audio only output 1 (using the bigger swing) split with the video 3. I think that may put two chips in play. If all else fails, I'll just go back to using the Trinnov as the switcher.


----------



## MOberhardt

sjschaff said:


> Guess it's possible, though as I recall MKV and M2ts are really just containers for various audio formats. Seems that dealing with a container wouldn't pose such problems. I would think that the level of complexity of a scene, and the processing speed of the LRP might be at play in managing the audio along with the video. But I can replay the scene without problems. However doing so is not a good test, as it doesn't replicate the ongoing "chain" of processing. Also, I never have this problem if I put the Trinnov ahead of the LRP. So, it would appear that using the Trinnov as the switch, and simply having the LRP receive the video, relieves the LRP of the added burden of managing both streams.
> 
> The dropouts are consistent with my prior video player (Nvidia Shield) and audio processor (Anthem D2V) experiences with the LRP. So, I'll just give the audio only output 1 (using the bigger swing) split with the video 3. I think that may put two chips in play. If all else fails, I'll just go back to using the Trinnov as the switcher.


I think there must be something underlying that is different with the MKV audo. There is this one remux I did for a 3D blu ray (Sword Master, to add DTS-X) which was incredibly complicated. Basically the DTS-X track was 24p, and the 3D 23.976. After shrinking the audio, I could get it to work remuxed into an MKV, but not with iso > MPLS > M2TS. I typically just remux 3D iso, but Sword Master was a no go.


----------



## sjschaff

MOberhardt said:


> I think there must be something underlying that is different with the MKV audo. There is this one remux I did for a 3D blu ray (Sword Master, to add DTS-X) which was incredibly complicated. Basically the DTS-X track was 24p, and the 3D 23.976. After shrinking the audio, I could get it to work remuxed into an MKV, but not with iso > MPLS > M2TS. I typically just remux 3D iso, but Sword Master was a no go.


What tool? Was it MKVtoolNix? That's what I use on my iMac when dealing with those types of changes. I agree that what you were attempting might be somewhat more complicated. And there's always the chance that the resulting remux would not work as expected. The particular audio drop I recently had with Dune 1984 came NOT from an MKV but playback of a ripped BDMV file. I may need to create a catalog listing of each container/audio format I play to see which ones have audio drop issues or not and how many audio drops I experience per film.


----------



## Mark Burton

MOberhardt said:


> I think there must be something underlying that is different with the MKV audo. There is this one remux I did for a 3D blu ray (Sword Master, to add DTS-X) which was incredibly complicated. Basically the DTS-X track was 24p, and the 3D 23.976. After shrinking the audio, I could get it to work remuxed into an MKV, but not with iso > MPLS > M2TS. I typically just remux 3D iso, but Sword Master was a no go.


I rip both iso and mkv. I noticed NO difference in the amount of audio drops between both formats.




sjschaff said:


> What tool? Was it MKVtoolNix? That's what I use on my iMac when dealing with those types of changes. I agree that what you were attempting might be somewhat more complicated. And there's always the chance that the resulting remux would not work as expected. The particular audio drop I recently had with Dune 1984 came NOT from an MKV but playback of a ripped BDMV file. I may need to create a catalog listing of each container/audio format I play to see which ones have audio drop issues or not and how many audio drops I experience per film.


increasing the voltage swing didn’t help me, since using output 2 I’ve just left the standard voltage swing and so far it’s worked (around 9 hours).

However, I also noticed when I was using output 1, when I decreased the voltage to the lowest setting, it took longer for my trinnov to sync, and although I only tested on 2 Netflix films, I managed to get through both without a dropout.

Before going back to output 1, try lowering the voltage back to the default setting and try again.

I’m also using a 5m monoprice cable for audio from the lumagen to the trinnov. I’ve found longer cables slightly more reliable.


----------



## MOberhardt

sjschaff said:


> What tool? Was it MKVtoolNix? That's what I use on my iMac when dealing with those types of changes. I agree that what you were attempting might be somewhat more complicated. And there's always the chance that the resulting remux would not work as expected. The particular audio drop I recently had with Dune 1984 came NOT from an MKV but playback of a ripped BDMV file. I may need to create a catalog listing of each container/audio format I play to see which ones have audio drop issues or not and how many audio drops I experience per film.


Well my normal tool for remux is tsmuxer. I find mkv annoying for 3d, and iso much cleaner. But with an m2ts output, the frame rate change on the audio just didn't work, it was still 24p. Same audio track in mkv vis mkvtoolnix did.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> I rip both iso and mkv. I noticed NO difference in the amount of audio drops between both formats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> increasing the voltage swing didn’t help me, since using output 2 I’ve just left the standard voltage swing and so far it’s worked (around 9 hours).
> 
> However, I also noticed when I was using output 1, when I decreased the voltage to the lowest setting, it took longer for my trinnov to sync, and although I only tested on 2 Netflix films, I managed to get through both without a dropout.
> 
> Before going back to output 1, try lowering the voltage back to the default setting and try again.
> 
> I’m also using a 5m monoprice cable for audio from the lumagen to the trinnov. I’ve found longer cables slightly more reliable.


I’ll mess about with the output swing on both, though using output 1 with the original setting was problematic and led to using output 1. And I might swap my LRP to Trinnov 3 M Tributaries for an active Ruipro 10 M I’ve lying around or maybe a 15 ft Audioquest Vodka. All else fails, it’ll be back to Trinnov as the switcher.


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> I’ll mess about with the output swing on both, though using output 1 with the original setting was problematic and led to using output 1. And I might swap my LRP to Trinnov 3 M Tributaries for an active Ruipro 10 M I’ve lying around or maybe a 15 ft Audioquest Vodka. All else fails, it’ll be back to Trinnov as the switcher.


You don’t want an active cable.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> You don’t want an active cable.


So these are only for LRP to project, right?


----------



## Hoi

For the past couple of months, I've been getting minor audio drops. At first, I thought is was only from Disney/Atmos mkv file films from my HTPC via Kodi. It happened across all of my devices with all of my movies. I swapped out my old trusty passive HDFury HDMI cable from the Audio output to a newer passive Zeskit cable. I haven't an audio drop in 2 weeks.


----------



## bjorg

For the DYIers, I finally published a standalone version of my .NET library for controlling the RadiancePro. I use it on my RaspberryPi to adjust the zoom level based on the content aspect ratio, but also to display information about the audio codec when it changes. I've also used it to customize all the labels for CMS, styles, and custom modes. It doesn't have all the commands, but adding more is straightforward.

Here's how you show message for a few seconds:









Here's how to listen to display mode changes:









Enjoy!


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> So these are only for LRP to project, right?


I’m using a 3m passive cable from my lumagen to my projector and a 5m passive cable from my lumagen (output 2) to my trinnov.

It seems the longer the audio (passive) cable, the better the reliability.

With video it seems the opposite, 2m is fine (even 1m has been ok when I’ve tested), but 5m starts to cause picture drop outs.

my above combination is definitely the most reliable I’ve had my system without bypassing the lumagen for audio. I managed another film last night with no issues.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> I’m using a 3m passive cable from my lumagen to my projector and a 5m passive cable from my lumagen (output 2) to my trinnov.
> 
> It seems the longer the audio (passive) cable, the better the reliability.
> 
> With video it seems the opposite, 2m is fine (even 1m has been ok when I’ve tested), but 5m starts to cause picture drop outs.
> 
> my above combination is definitely the most reliable I’ve had my system without bypassing the lumagen for audio. I managed another film last night with no issues.


Interesting. I’ve been using the recommended cables and lengths that JRP has been touting, from Tributaries. So, I’m thinking my issues continue to point back to the 5348, or some weird interaction of the JVC or Trinnov. However the problems existed before acquiring the Trinnov and also existed with the Anthem D2V. And it would seem unlikely the projector would affect the audio. 

Having experimented with increasing the swing on both outputs 1 and 2 I’m even more perplexed. I discovered that while using my TiVo Roamio to play prerecorded shows, sometimes the audio would not simply drop for a few seconds, but completely. I would have to switch channels and return back to the prerecorded one to get sound working again. 

Will keep testing…


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> Interesting. I’ve been using the recommended cables and lengths that JRP has been touting, from Tributaries. So, I’m thinking my issues continue to point back to the 5348, or some weird interaction of the JVC or Trinnov. However the problems existed before acquiring the Trinnov and also existed with the Anthem D2V. And it would seem unlikely the projector would affect the audio.
> 
> Having experimented with increasing the swing on both outputs 1 and 2 I’m even more perplexed. I discovered that while using my TiVo Roamio to play prerecorded shows, sometimes the audio would not simply drop for a few seconds, but completely. I would have to switch channels and return back to the prerecorded one to get sound working again.
> 
> Will keep testing…


I feel your pain mate.


----------



## bjorg

I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.

I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).

I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.

Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


----------



## sor

You could try removing the Lumagen from the chain, or plugging the ATV into a different display device, to narrow down the issue. I have an ATV and a Lumagen and did not see anything like this. Do you maybe have laser dimming in the mix as well?


----------



## aguy

bjorg said:


> I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.
> 
> I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).
> 
> I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


Interesting and very annoying. 

What format do you output from the Apple TV in to the lumagen in ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karl Maga

bjorg said:


> I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.
> 
> I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).
> 
> I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


I also have a ATV4K 1st gen. I'll give it a try later tonight. I didn't notice anything awry in that scene on Sunday this week when I watched it.


----------



## SJHT

bjorg said:


> I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.
> 
> I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).
> 
> I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


I took a look at this exact scene and see no issues. I also have a 1st gen ATV4K. Setup as 4K SDR, YCbCr, Match Content Range & Frame Rate. This is a Dolby Vision title. FYI - input shows 3840x2160p 23.98Hz-2D, 422-HDR2020, output is 3840x2160p, 23.98hz-2D,422-SDR2020..


----------



## OzHDHT

I didn't pick up any issues viewing Dune last week. I had watched it via Infuse player on the RS4500 with my normal DTM config in the Lumagen.


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> I took a look at this exact scene and see no issues. I also have a 1st gen ATV4K. Setup as 4K SDR, YCbCr, Match Content Range & Frame Rate. This is a Dolby Vision title. FYI - input shows 3840x2160p 23.98Hz-2D, 422-HDR2020, output is 3840x2160p, 23.98hz-2D,422-SDR2020..


Thanks for the detailed response. Settings are similar, but I will compare in detail later tonight. Dolby Vision shouldn't matter since it goes through the Lumagen, but good to be aware of it. I'll keep digging and futzing around.


----------



## Jue Liang

bjorg said:


> I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.
> 
> I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).
> 
> I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


I have the same issue. It’s definitely an ATV problem, not lumagen. And this problem started from the last firmware update on ATV. It’s on all APPs, Disney plus, Netflix. HBO.


----------



## aguy

Jue Liang said:


> I have the same issue. It’s definitely an ATV problem, not lumagen. And this problem started from the last firmware update on ATV. It’s on all APPs, Disney plus, Netflix. HBO.


Pure speculation here but I wonder if Apple are streaming the Dolby vision encoded version in the app and then transcoding it to static hdr10 on the fly ( instead of streaming the hdr10 version of file) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bjorg

I found this thread: Apple TV 4K Raised Dolby Vision Black Levels (Fixed on 2021 Model) & Near Black SDR Flickering


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## bjorg

Tried various settings. 4:4:4 vs 4:2:0, YCbCr vs. RGB, 4K SDR UI vs. 4K HDR UI. Nothing made a difference. Only workaround is disabling Content Range Matching, which prevent the ATV from switching to HDR. That fixes the issue at the cost of losing HDR. I'm gonna try that out and see how much I miss it, or if I'm just going to forget about it.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.
> 
> I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).
> 
> I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


I had this same issue about two weeks ago and only with the AppleTV. It did it for a day or two and then all of a sudden stopped doing it. I reported it to Lumagen, but then it went away on its own. Have no idea what was going on and still don’t.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kris Deering said:


> I had this same issue about two weeks ago and only with the AppleTV. It did it for a day or two and then all of a sudden stopped doing it. I reported it to Lumagen, but then it went away on its own. Have no idea what was going on and still don’t.


Me too. It's started on my Apple TV as well..and i was so perplexed i went direct to TV and it still does it. I can only hope Apple fix it or it randomly goes away as it's pretty annoying.


----------



## sjschaff

Gordon Fraser said:


> Me too. It's started on my Apple TV as well..and i was so perplexed i went direct to TV and it still does it. I can only hope Apple fix it or it randomly goes away as it's pretty annoying.


Ah for the days when the companies and the computers they make actually informed users of what they're up to. You could actually access and read logs if you wanted. Now it's hidden from view with no tools to access or even trace what's going on...


----------



## appelz

Kris Deering said:


> I had this same issue about two weeks ago and only with the AppleTV. It did it for a day or two and then all of a sudden stopped doing it. I reported it to Lumagen, but then it went away on its own. Have no idea what was going on and still don’t.


I've seen it in the dark background of the night city skyscape screensaver on the last few projects.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks, In regards to NLS, I found lately the panning can be very distracting…once your eye catches it, it’s hard to make it go away...I found that switching to a 2.0 (non NLS) Aspect ratio for 1.85 content is a good compromise with my smaller 2.35 screen…the screen becomes “mostly” filled, not overly zoomed etc and I’m not noticing the panning issues…Is this a fair compromise or am I missing something? Thanks


----------



## jollyguy23

I have been on this forum and trying to read as much as I can but here is a question that I know how to avoid but I am asking the question to understand why this is happening:

Recently picked up a used Radience Pro and playing around with it (Waiting for my NZ JVC to show up when every to make all the proper setting etc, so until then experimenting).
Here is my connection:

Sources – Example Apple tv 4K - >Denon 6500 – LRP -> JVC 4910. (My hdmi is NOT the recommended 3m at this time). In this scenario:

Go into Apple home screen ,Select a 4k show/movie ,Screen blanks for a few seconds

Movie plays,Exit ,Screen blanks for a few seconds ,Home screen comes

So on and so forth. So my question is why is there that few seconds delay? I can see the same when I am playing a movie using my Panasonic player when the source is connected to AVR and then LRP. Is this an HDMI cable issue?

When I change the sources to go into LRP and then into the AVR and JVC, I do not have this issue (in this case I don’t get OSD but I already got answers on this forum to connect a 2nd cable to JVC etc).So I know what I have to do but I am trying to understand why I am seeing those few seconds delay and IF there is anything I can do about it. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Golan Trevize

Hi everyone,
I started to have an issue just yesterday right after passing from an HDR content to an SDR one.
The projector gave me an "Out of Range" message and I couldn't get the picture back until I remembered I could send a direct command with the Radiance remote to force an output resolution/Hz.
The one that worked was 4K 24.
Everything seemed to be fine but then I noticed something strange as I could no longer select 4.2.2 as output, in fact the Radiance was telling me it was only able to output in 4.2.0.
I have upgraded the HDMI to 18G and I have 4 inputs and 1 output at 18G so that was strange.
In the info screen the lumagen says what you can see in the pictures.

I fInd it strange that in one page it says 18G: Y Y / Y , 0
But in the other says:
Output Device Capabilities:
2- 4K24:*N* 4K60:*Y* HDR:Y 2020:Y 18G:*N* HDCP:2.2
So 4K24 it's a no but 4K60 is fine? and the output is not 18G?

I can't be 100% sure that this was the consequence of the handshake problem as I didn't check the output setting everyday, but I think I can assume that.

What do you think? Do I need to start worrying?
Is there a way I can make the radiance identify the HDMI ports in the right way?
Would a reset work? and in case would I lose the firmware updates?

Thanks


----------



## bobof

Golan Trevize said:


> Hi everyone,
> I started to have an issue just yesterday right after passing from an HDR content to an SDR one.
> The projector gave me an "Out of Range" message and I couldn't get the picture back until I remembered I could send a direct command with the Radiance remote to force an output resolution/Hz.
> The one that worked was 4K 24.
> Everything seemed to be fine but then I noticed something strange as I could no longer select 4.2.2 as output, in fact the Radiance was telling me it was only able to output in 4.2.0.
> I have upgraded the HDMI to 18G and I have 4 inputs and 1 output at 18G so that was strange.
> In the info screen the lumagen says what you can see in the pictures.
> 
> I fInd it strange that in one page it says 18G: Y Y / Y , 0
> But in the other says:
> Output Device Capabilities:
> 2- 4K24:*N* 4K60:*Y* HDR:Y 2020:Y 18G:*N* HDCP:2.2
> So 4K24 it's a no but 4K60 is fine? and the output is not 18G?
> 
> I can't be 100% sure that this was the consequence of the handshake problem as I didn't check the output setting everyday, but I think I can assume that.
> 
> What do you think? Do I need to start worrying?
> Is there a way I can make the radiance identify the HDMI ports in the right way?
> Would a reset work? and in case would I lose the firmware updates?
> 
> Thanks


The first place it says 18G is related to the output cards you have - if they are 18G this will be reported here. 18G YY/Y,0 means the two input cards are 18G, the output card is 18G, and the output card is loaded with microcode 0. There is another microcode you can load, but I think in general 0 works best.

The second place is the declared capabilities of the display you have connected up to the output, so it can of course be less than 18G of that is what the display says via its EDID over HDMI, each of those fields represents a capability from the EDID. What is the display?


----------



## Kris Deering

Gordon Fraser said:


> Me too. It's started on my Apple TV as well..and i was so perplexed i went direct to TV and it still does it. I can only hope Apple fix it or it randomly goes away as it's pretty annoying.


Well it is back again on mine. I’m doing a firmware update now to see if it clears. Nothing else has changed in the system at all. So bizarre.


----------



## Kris Deering

AppleTV firmware update eliminated it for now. We’ll see if it lasts.


----------



## Golan Trevize

Thanks Bobof,
So "Output Device Capabilities" refers to the display and not the Radiance? Ok.
The display is the JVC DLA NX7 connected to the output 2 of the Radiance, and as far as I know both the projector's HDMI ports are 18Gbps, and I'm sure that all the specs in that row where Y before.
I'm then more than sure that I could set the output to 4.2.2 (and 4.4.4) without any issue.

If someone has any idea how I could diagnose the Radiance (or the PJ) please let me know

Thanks


----------



## bobof

Golan Trevize said:


> Thanks Bobof,
> So "Output Device Capabilities" refers to the display and not the Radiance? Ok.
> The display is the JVC DLA NX7 connected to the output 2 of the Radiance, and as far as I know both the projector's HDMI ports are 18Gbps, and I'm sure that all the specs in that row where Y before.
> I'm then more than sure that I could set the output to 4.2.2 (and 4.4.4) without any issue.
> 
> If someone has any idea how I could diagnose the Radiance (or the PJ) please let me know
> 
> Thanks


Is the JVC connected directly to the unit? What is the HDMI cable? Any HDBaseT or other gear between Lumagen and NX7? Maybe the cable is giving inconsistent results reading the EDID back? There are settings on the JVC that can limit the EDID, but I don't think any of them would give the result you mention. Anyway, those are some of the things I'd be looking at.

Lumagen support are very good at getting these sort of things resolved, I'm just a fellow user  [email protected]


----------



## asherman8

bjorg said:


> I don't think this is Lumagen related, but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or thread.
> 
> I'm running into an issue where dark scenes have pulsating blacks, but only from AppleTV. I don't have an issue on the Oppo 203 or Kaleidescape Strato device. There the picture is rock solid, no matter how dark. It doesn't appear to be app related either. Both Netflix and HBO Max exhibit this issue. For example, in Dune, the scene where the Bene Gesserit Mother tests Paul was particularly annoying. Interestingly, when I jump back 10s or more, the blacks are stable for a few seconds, and then start pulsating again (i.e. toggle between black and dark grey).
> 
> I tried disabling DTM on Lumagen, just in case, but that made no difference. The pulsating seems to be specific to my AppleTV 4K (1st gen). It does not appear to be in the signal since it doesn't appear when jumping back in the video. I'm at a loss what could be causing it.
> 
> Any thoughts, suggestions for things to google or threads to ask this question? Thanks!


I had the exact same problem. I tried just about everything. Finally unplugged my Lumagen for a bit, plugged it back in, problem gone. Just luck maybe but I thought I'd pass along.


----------



## Golan Trevize

bobof said:


> Is the JVC connected directly to the unit? What is the HDMI cable? Any HDBaseT or other gear between Lumagen and NX7? Maybe the cable is giving inconsistent results reading the EDID back? There are settings on the JVC that can limit the EDID, but I don't think any of them would give the result you mention. Anyway, those are some of the things I'd be looking at.
> 
> Lumagen support are very good at getting these sort of things resolved, I'm just a fellow user  [email protected]


Thanks, the cable connecting the Radiance to the PJ is a fiber-optic HDMI cable and never gave me any problem before.
I have a backup cable installed so I'll try that.

I'll contact Lumagen for help

Thank you


----------



## Kris Deering

Golan Trevize said:


> Thanks, the cable connecting the Radiance to the PJ is a fiber-optic HDMI cable and never gave me any problem before.
> I have a backup cable installed so I'll try that.
> 
> I'll contact Lumagen for help
> 
> Thank you


Which fiber optic? There are quite a few that have known issues with Lumagen/projector pairing. Celerity comes to mind immediately.


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Wondering if Jim Peterson or Kris Deering have tested/tried these new Tributaries HDMI 2.1 cables (8k) with the Lumagen 5348 and what they think. I know Jim has been recommending the Tributaries HDMI 2.0 (4k) cables for some time with the Radiance Pro and the new 5348.



CP850-CLED said:


> Got to test the new Max version of HDMI 2.1 cables from Tributaries on the finest television set ever created (and the closest thing to C-Led) the SONY AJ90 83", well folks I just ruined your system, these are now De Rigueur for Kaleidescape and Apple TV! Does not require 20/20 vision to realize the improvements are more than subtle compared to the previous Tributaries Flagship...
> View attachment 3191078
> 
> View attachment 3191069





Steve Bruzonsky said:


> DId you beat Jim Peterson of Lumagen on this new Tributaries version? As he has been promoting certain Tributaries HDMI cables for some years!





CP850-CLED said:


> I am sure Jim will test it, and probably endorse but ask him, going straight into the Sony Wondervision it improved Kaleidescape and prevented me from swinging out the new Appletv 4k from the 34th floor balcony because it looked 20% crappier than the Wondervision internal apps that is something the new Kaleidescape Head of engineering needs to get one in his house to A) work on Dolby Vision and B) once and for all get off the fence on HDMI CEC and make the new HDMI 2.1 Strato C Players Bravia Sync Compatible, I know what its like throwing 30 grand into the very best Crestron programming for one room by the best programmer around. Never ever have I seen instantaneous 1/4 of a second command (ie. Mute) response like this. the sexy aluminum backlit remote does that ( does that with the new hdmi 2.1 av8805a earc but not last years model- a surround processor that can be given substantial AMG like treatment [price modded with 620 mods $20,000- $14,000 with 400 mods] possibly creating the most formidable of all surround processors with Mark Levinson like sound quality and swift fault and glitch free reliability assuming you have great speakers that need no stinking calibration under Schroeder) and the hdmi 2.1 brings much more so its time for Kaleidescape to start offering hdmi cec for the Sony 83" and 100" because Best in class home theater just became extremely affordable in small rooms, but the next Strato C should be Bravia Sync certified.
> View attachment 3191093


----------



## DigitalAV

Pretty sure Lumagen advises against 48gbps cables


----------



## Gordon Fraser

DigitalAV said:


> Pretty sure Lumagen advises against 48gbps cables


Indeed.

Advice from Jim previously

Radiance Pro outputs have fast 4k edge rates, and cable equalisation.
Due to transmission line physics, it is edge rate, not data rate, that is the primary factor in required cable quality
Passive HDMI cables should be at least 2 meters long and no more than 5 meters long, with 3 meter often the optimal length for cable attenuation
All HDMI cables should be 18 GHz Certified. Passive 48 GHz HDMI cables can work, but you may need them to be longer to have the appropriate amount of attenuation


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Wondering if Jim Peterson or Kris Deering have tested/tried these new Tributaries HDMI 2.1 cables (8k) with the Lumagen 5348 and what they think. I know Jim has been recommending the Tributaries HDMI 2.0 (4k) cables for some time with the Radiance Pro and the new 5348.





DigitalAV said:


> Pretty sure Lumagen advises against 48gbps cables





Gordon Fraser said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Advise from Jim previously
> 
> Radiance Pro outputs have fast 4k edge rates, and cable equalisation.
> Due to transmission line physics, it is edge rate, not data rate, that is the primary factor in required cable quality
> Passive HDMI cables should be at least 2 meters long and no more than 5 meters long, with 3 meter often the optimal length for cable attenuation
> All HDMI cables should be 18 GHz Certified. Passive 48 GHz HDMI cables can work, but you may need them to be longer to have the appropriate amount of attenuation


Gordon,

Now that after 2+ years my theater upgrade and renovation is finally starting to get done (still 4-6 months out probably),
and I have replaced my Sony 5000 and Lumagen Radiance Pro with a Sony 380 and Lumagen 5348, which specific brand and model HDMI cables do you recommend, both from component to 5348 (I will listen to you re optimal 3M length), and possibly a bit longer HDMI length to projector (5348 in equipment closet in back of theater, with projector above behind back wall in its own enclosure backing into the attic in back of my theater - once its all in, will need to measure but probably will need 5-6m cable), Is the top Tributaries HDMI 2.0 4k cable still the best recommended one?


----------



## jrp

Steve Bruzonsky said:


> Wondering if Jim Peterson or Kris Deering have tested/tried these new Tributaries HDMI 2.1 cables (8k) with the Lumagen 5348 and what they think. I know Jim has been recommending the Tributaries HDMI 2.0 (4k) cables for some time with the Radiance Pro and the new 5348.


Others have commented, but allow me to also comment.

I strongly recommend against 48 GHz active cables with a 18 GHz projector or TV. For 18 GHz systems these are being recommended by people who do not understand transmission line physics. In this case "preparing for the future" _may_ hurt the present.

As previously quoted, the most common issue we see is due to marginal projector, and audio processer, HDMI inputs having problems with faster HDMI edge rates. Since each channel on a 48 GHz cable runs at 12 GHz, which is twice the speed of an 18 GHz cable, the edge rates are going to be faster, and cause issues in systems with a projector, or TV, with a marginal HDMI input. I now have three cases of 48 GHz active fiber cables causing issues with an 18 GHz projector input that were resolved by switching from a 48 GHz active cable to a 18 GHz active cable.

On the other hand, if you have a TV or projector that supports 8k input, then use of an 48GHz active cable should be fine.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> AppleTV firmware update eliminated it for now. We’ll see if it lasts.


Thanks for sharing that. I did an update as well (now on 15.1.1 19J581) and the issue seems to be mostly gone. I say mostly, because it showed up at the beginning of the Dune scene. However, it was not as acute and after a few seconds (<10s), it went away entirely. w00t!!!

Fingers crossed it lasts!


----------



## Jue Liang

bjorg said:


> Thanks for sharing that. I did an update as well (now on 15.1.1 19J581) and the issue seems to be mostly gone. I say mostly, because it showed up at the beginning of the Dune scene. However, it was not as acute and after a few seconds (<10s), it went away entirely. w00t!!!
> 
> Fingers crossed it lasts!


I did the ATV update, the issue was gone initially, then came back again the second time I turned on it.


----------



## sor

jrp said:


> Others have commented, but allow me to also comment.
> 
> I strongly recommend against 48 GHz active cables with a 18 GHz projector or TV. For 18 GHz systems these are being recommended by people who do not understand transmission line physics. In this case "preparing for the future" _may_ hurt the present.
> 
> As previously quoted, the most common issue we see is due to marginal projector, and audio processer, HDMI inputs having problems with faster HDMI edge rates. Since each channel on a 48 GHz cable runs at 12 GHz, which is twice the speed of an 18 GHz cable, the edge rates are going to be faster, and cause issues in systems with a projector, or TV, with a marginal HDMI input. I now have three cases of 48 GHz active fiber cables causing issues with an 18 GHz projector input that were resolved by switching from a 48 GHz active cable to a 18 GHz active cable.
> 
> On the other hand, if you have a TV or projector that supports 8k input, then use of an 48GHz active cable should be fine.


Interesting. I would have thought that a 48Ghz cable was backward compatible and didn’t _have_ to run at 3 x 12Ghz. I can’t imagine how it would even link with an HDMI 2.0 device otherwise.

Or is it more that “underclocking” the active ends that are capable of 12GHz but running slower for compatibility just makes the rising/falling edges (slew rates) too sharp for HDMI 2.0 devices?


----------



## Jdmag26

My use case and budget will allow me to achieve and sustain enough light (~18fL) for a while. This will be adequate for SDR but too low for HDR. So, here are some questions:
.Can the HDR data on a 4K blu-ray disk be turned off at the player, processor or projector so only the 4K pixel density is projected but in SDR? I apologize upfront if my terminology is wrong.
.If not, can a Lumagen processor achieve this?
.Or am I just stuck with1920x1080 signal from a standard blu-ray disk that can be scaled to 4k pixel density by the gear on my video chain.


----------



## MOberhardt

Sorry if off topic, but I know there are a lot of people here with scope setups. How do you handle subtitles for streamed stuff. I recently started Netflix again and in horror I realized how much I hate streaming. I was watching a foreign film and the subtitles are just obnoxious. I changed font etc on both Apple TV and Netflix account. But the real issue is the idiocy of the position. Especially for two lines of subs. It is insane. On a 2.35:1 movie, single line subs are just below the image in the black, but if two lines of subs they ARE HIGHER, so the bottom line is half on half off. It is ludicrous.

What do people with scope settings do for Netflix? Are there better devices that allow positioning of subtitles? Or do you have to switch to 16:9 or something?


----------



## Pogostov

Cant find old Lumagens discussion topic. Have a quaestion about XS-3D model.
Does it internal processing is done in 422? Can it passthru RGB (full) signal?


----------



## Kris Deering

Jdmag26 said:


> My use case and budget will allow me to achieve and sustain enough light (~18fL) for a while. This will be adequate for SDR but too low for HDR. So, here are some questions:
> .Can the HDR data on a 4K blu-ray disk be turned off at the player, processor or projector so only the 4K pixel density is projected but in SDR? I apologize upfront if my terminology is wrong.
> .If not, can a Lumagen processor achieve this?
> .Or am I just stuck with1920x1080 signal from a standard blu-ray disk that can be scaled to 4k pixel density by the gear on my video chain.


If you turn off HDR in a player/streamer but still play 4K HDR content, the box you are using (player/streamer) does the tone map to SDR and the results are typically poor. You would still be better off using the Radiance for this. It should still look fine with 18 fL of light, though obviously not as good as it could.


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Sorry if off topic, but I know there are a lot of people here with scope setups. How do you handle subtitles for streamed stuff. I recently started Netflix again and in horror I realized how much I hate streaming. I was watching a foreign film and the subtitles are just obnoxious. I changed font etc on both Apple TV and Netflix account. But the real issue is the idiocy of the position. Especially for two lines of subs. It is insane. On a 2.35:1 movie, single line subs are just below the image in the black, but if two lines of subs they ARE HIGHER, so the bottom line is half on half off. It is ludicrous.
> 
> What do people with scope settings do for Netflix? Are there better devices that allow positioning of subtitles? Or do you have to switch to 16:9 or something?


Just switch to a slightly narrower aspect. So if the movie is 2.4, try 2.2 or even 2.0. This allows for more space below the frame for the subtitles without giving up as much width as 16x9.


----------



## Jdmag26

Kris Deering said:


> If you turn off HDR in a player/streamer but still play 4K HDR content, the box you are using (player/streamer) does the tone map to SDR and the results are typically poor. You would still be better off using the Radiance for this. It should still look fine with 18 fL of light, though obviously not as good as it could.


Thank you, Kris! Short and clear answer. Much appreciated!


----------



## Mike_WI

Pogostov said:


> Cant find old Lumagens discussion topic. Have a quaestion about XS-3D model.
> Does it internal processing is done in 422? Can it passthru RGB (full) signal?





Lumagen



May also check here:


Lumagen


----------



## MOberhardt

Kris Deering said:


> Just switch to a slightly narrower aspect. So if the movie is 2.4, try 2.2 or even 2.0. This allows for more space below the frame for the subtitles without giving up as much width as 16x9.


Ugh. So no player allows you to position subtitles? What a joke. Streaming is definitely a 2nd class source...


----------



## jrp

sor said:


> Interesting. I would have thought that a 48Ghz cable was backward compatible and didn’t _have_ to run at 3 x 12Ghz. I can’t imagine how it would even link with an HDMI 2.0 device otherwise.
> 
> Or is it more that “underclocking” the active ends that are capable of 12GHz but running slower for compatibility just makes the rising/falling edges (slew rates) too sharp for HDMI 2.0 devices?


The "edge rate" (signal transition rate) is separate from "data rate" (resolution).

If you have a 48 GHz cable, and run 4k60 4:2:2, the data rate is reduced to "18 GHz." However, the edge rate is likely still the faster edge rate needed for 48 GHz for simplicity of design. For example the Radiance Pro 18 GHz output uses the same "edge rate" for both 9 and 18 GHz output rates. This is one reason I recommend 9 GHz output cards for marginal projector inputs, since the 9 GHz output card has slower output edge rates at 9 GHz output, compared to the18 GHz output card at 9 GHz output rate.

If a cable manufacturer wants they can optimize the output edge rate to match the output data rate. I hope cable manufacturers figure this out because it would mean a well designed 48 GHz active cable would work fine with a 18 GHz projector since the active cable could output at the optimal edge rate for each data rate. It is possible some manufacturers already are doing this.


----------



## docrog

This (simplistic?) question is most likely off topic, but I'm hoping for some clarification. I've always wondered about the difference in the video quality of 4K streaming versus UHD Blu-Ray for identical content. For example, the UHD disc of "Lucy" is listed as 80.0Mbps (the highest rate that I'd found). This would still seem to be well within the streaming pipe of Vudu via Roku in a home setting capable of 200Mbps, even with the Roku's output reportedly maxxed at 24Mbps. Would the expected resolution in content from the disc be indistinguishable from streaming or does streaming add compression (artifact), despite the (seemingly) more than adequate pipe?


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> This (simplistic?) question is most likely off topic, but I'm hoping for some clarification. I've always wondered about the difference in the video quality of 4K streaming versus UHD Blu-Ray for identical content. For example, the UHD disc of "Lucy" is listed as 80.0mbps (the highest rate that I'd found). This would still seem to be well within the streaming pipe of Vudu via Roku in a home setting capable of 100Gbps, even with the Roku's output reportedly maxxed at 24Gbps. Would the expected resolution in content from the disc be indistinguishable from streaming or does streaming add compression (artifact), despite the (seemingly) more than adequate pipe?


First of all, I think you meant 100mbps (not capital G or M) for the 'home setting'. Not sure what you meant about the Roku...hdmi spec of 18gbps, for example, has nothing to do with the bitate of the video, which is an order of magnitude lower in terms of bitrate, compared to the hdmi "pipe" that transmits data from the player to the display.

All that aside, streaming services don't transmit their movies at high bitrates. Obviously, Kaleidescape is a download service (the full data is downloaded before you can watch). However, Sony has a new service called "Bravia" that promises to stream Sony-only movies at high bitrates around the 80mbps range.

But for iTunes, Vudu, Netflix, etc...all the typical streamers...their file sizes are much lower. A movie like Lucy, which on disc is a total size of around 60GB, would probably be only around 20GB (at the most) as a web download (where the content is ripped directly from the streaming service). As such, just due to the reduced filesize alone, means the bitrate of the video inside is simply not as high.

The typical streaming services are not going to house huge files for streaming. Having 100mbps internet connection to ones home doesn't mean they can stream consistently at that speed (too many bursts and dips), so streaming services work towards the lowest common denominator...around 20mbps for UHD content is all they strive for when streaming.

The resolution is the same (it's all 4K resolution) regardless of disc vs streaming. It's compression artifacts (macroblock, etc) that you'll notice more with streaming since the video bitrate is simply far lower than the disc counterpart.


----------



## docrog

Thanks for that explanation regarding the visual artifacts downside of compressing video files. I guess I'm not overly sensitive regarding macroblock artifacts and never had anyone point out other compression artifacts............

Yes, I corrected those typos (what WAS I thinking??). FYI, using both "fast.com" & "speed test", my home internet speed is rated at 217Mbps. (they do capitalize the M).


----------



## sor

jrp said:


> The "edge rate" (signal transition rate) is separate from "data rate" (resolution).
> 
> If you have a 48 GHz cable, and run 4k60 4:2:2, the data rate is reduced to "18 GHz." However, the edge rate is likely still the faster edge rate needed for 48 GHz for simplicity of design. For example the Radiance Pro 18 GHz output uses the same "edge rate" for both 9 and 18 GHz output rates. This is one reason I recommend 9 GHz output cards for marginal projector inputs, since the 9 GHz output card has slower output edge rates at 9 GHz output, compared to the18 GHz output card at 9 GHz output rate.
> 
> If a cable manufacturer wants they can optimize the output edge rate to match the output data rate. I hope cable manufacturers figure this out because it would mean a well designed 48 GHz active cable would work fine with a 18 GHz projector since the active cable could output at the optimal edge rate for each data rate. It is possible some manufacturers already are doing this.


Ok, great, thanks for clarifying!


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Thanks for that explanation regarding the visual artifacts downside of compressing video files. I guess I'm not overly sensitive regarding macroblock artifacts and never had anyone point out other compression artifacts............
> 
> Yes, I corrected those typos (what WAS I thinking??). FYI, using both "fast.com" & "speed test", my home internet speed is rated at 217Mbps. (they do capitalize the M).


Yeah, sorry, I was mistaken about the capital M...I was getting mixed up with the difference between Mbps and MBps...


----------



## Steve Bruzonsky

I just got my Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348, replacing my prior Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446! My theater upgrade isn't ready for that and my upcoming Sony 380 projector yet (replacing my prior Sony 5000). So today I on a temporary basis pur the 5348 in my basement 5.2.2 theater with my 2019 LG 65" OLED. Any recommendations on HDR tone mapping settings for my 2019 LG 65" OLED? Initially I left it at factory settings except the Max light setting I set from 500 to 1400, about twice my understanding of the light output of the OLED. And with factory setting it is tone mapping SDR to HDR. Picture looks great! Given how expensive this beast is it will not be staying in my basement but will go in my theater and I just can't spend the money for more around the house - darn! I must admit initially just watching "Y-The Last Man" on Netflix, setting Apple TV 4k to output 1080p at native rate for that show, the picture looked better than ever, but interestingly the sound was clearly better than however good it was before! Its that HDMI jitter reduction no doubt!
I warched some quick demo scenes on my Kaleidescape, like Planet Earth II, etc and looked great!


----------



## Mark Burton

Well my joy of using output 2 via the RP on the 5348 and getting no audio drops was relatively short lived.

they’re back with a vengeance, last 3 films, 5 drops in total.

I’ve given up with it now, I am bypassing the lumagen for audio out. 😩


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

To be honest I’ve never suffered from audio drop outs until the latest firmware. I get them 2 - 3 times per movie since updating.


----------



## sunnya23

Kris Deering said:


> Just switch to a slightly narrower aspect. So if the movie is 2.4, try 2.2 or even 2.0. This allows for more space below the frame for the subtitles without giving up as much width as 16x9.


Could you or someone else please explain how I would go about doing this? Currently whenever I press up or down on the remote, the aspect ratio remains the same but I get some form of nls or zoom of the same aspect ratio. What steps within the menu do I need to take in order to change aspect ratios from 2.35 to 2.2 or 2? Thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

Stupid black flicker is showing up on the ATV4K again. Seems to happen randomly. Frustrating.


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> Stupid black flicker is showing up on the ATV4K again. Seems to happen randomly. Frustrating.


Same here. Are you on TVos 15.x? Lots and lots of complaints on the new updates.


----------



## bjorg

Killroy said:


> Same here. Are you on TVos 15.x? Lots and lots of complaints on the new updates.


I had it on tvOS 14 as well. It seems to be more noticeable the more nits your display can put out. I first only noticed it on the LED wall, but now, I can spot it on my LG OLED as well. I guess I didn't look hard enough until others confirmed they had the same issue. It's really annoying!


----------



## Clark Burk

Do you think this has anything to do with Apple’s handling of Dolby Vision?


----------



## MOberhardt

Clark Burk said:


> Do you think this has anything to do with Apple’s handling of Dolby Vision?


Could be - oddly this flicker was an issue Panasonic UHD players had with some rare Dolby Vision UHDs like Knives Out, Midway, and Ghost in the Shell


----------



## SJHT

I’m still not seeing this issue in watching the Dune scene mentioned. Theater with Sony 995, Lumagen 5348 and ATV4K (original) and in our family room (Sony OLED, ATV4K newest version)…. All looks good. Strange! We have a new LG OLED in our gaming room, maybe I should test that as well, but never watch movies there unless guests do….


----------



## jrp

Mark Burton said:


> Well my joy of using output 2 via the RP on the 5348 and getting no audio drops was relatively short lived.
> 
> they’re back with a vengeance, last 3 films, 5 drops in total.
> 
> I’ve given up with it now, I am bypassing the lumagen for audio out. 😩


Dang! Thought it was going to be good.

Did you change the swing on output 2 using MENU 0728 to increase it by about 20%? Sorry, I know we discussed this, but I do not recall if this was done or not. If you have, might be good to go back to HDMI standard with MENU 0725. Save the change.

=== 

If it works for days, and then not for days, we should discuss your wall power situation offline. We have definitely fixed dropouts by changing the power. I recall you have good power conditioning, but we should chat by email. Drop me a line.


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> I’m still not seeing this issue in watching the Dune scene mentioned. Theater with Sony 995, Lumagen 5348 and ATV4K (original) and in our family room (Sony OLED, ATV4K newest version)…. All looks good. Strange! We have a new LG OLED in our gaming room, maybe I should test that as well, but never watch movies there unless guests do….


How many nits does your project cast at your projection distance?


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> To be honest I’ve never suffered from audio drop outs until the latest firmware. I get them 2 - 3 times per movie since updating.


Interesting data. 

While the audio does not touch or go through the FPGA, I can believe a particular FPGA load could have more ground noise due to how the synthesis tool placed everything, and that _may_ affect audio.

If I get any dropouts, I go and press in and wiggle all HDMI cable ends. This had eliminated them pretty much every time. I have bumped cables when I thought I had not, because I could feel them move in doing this step. Also, if there is any tension on the HDMI cable it can eventually pull the HDMI plug out just enough to cause dropouts.

Not saying this is it, but it is something to be aware of.

The true test it to go back to the release you had previously that did not have any dropouts. Would be additional data on this if it stopped the dropouts.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

jrp said:


> Interesting data.
> 
> While the audio does not touch or go through the FPGA, I can believe a particular FPGA load could have more ground noise due to how the synthesis tool placed everything, and that _may_ affect audio.
> 
> If I get any dropouts, I go and press in and wiggle all HDMI cable ends. This had eliminated them pretty much every time. I have bumped cables when I thought I had not, because I could feel them move in doing this step. Also, if there is any tension on the HDMI cable it can eventually pull the HDMI plug out just enough to cause dropouts.
> 
> Not saying this is it, but it is something to be aware of.
> 
> The true test it to go back to the release you had previously that did not have any dropouts. Would be additional data on this if it stopped the dropouts.


Well I did plug in an extra device to the lumagen. Maybe that’s it? I will reseat all cables.

If that doesn’t fix it I will roll back firmware. 

Will post results


----------



## SJHT

bjorg said:


> How many nits does your project cast at your projection distance?


I would need to dig for the exact specs. Around 140ish. All done by Kris Deering. It’s pretty bright, but a smaller screen….. Looks pretty good thanks to Kris!


----------



## Sittler27

I'm on SW Rev 072821, and wondering if there is any significant reason to update the firmware from that?

Everything is running smoothly with no issues at this time that I can tell.


----------



## patcub

I just setup my Radiance Pro 4242-18G and it is working great apart from one issue I’ve noticed in HDR10 movies. I’m guessing it has something to do with my HDR settings, but I’ve changed my max light to different values and it still happens. I’ve attached a picture of what I am seeing (this is from avengers endgame but I’ve seen it happen in several movies). It appears to happen when an extra bright object is on the screen. In this example it is a bright star and it has this purple/ blue pixelated discoloration in it. It happens for a second or two but is very distracting, otherwise I’m loving everything about the Lumagen.

Can someone help me figure out how to get rid of this issue? Thanks!


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> I would need to dig for the exact specs. Around 140ish. All done by Kris Deering. It’s pretty bright, but a smaller screen….. Looks pretty good thanks to Kris!


It may not be noticeable enough then. My OLED has it, but I only notice it if I look for it. On my LED wall, it's annoyingly obvious!

Be happy you don't have it or notice it!


----------



## bobof

Mark Burton said:


> Well my joy of using output 2 via the RP on the 5348 and getting no audio drops was relatively short lived.
> 
> they’re back with a vengeance, last 3 films, 5 drops in total.
> 
> I’ve given up with it now, I am bypassing the lumagen for audio out. 😩


Do you have any other cheap AVR knocking around?

If I recall right, you have heard the glitches now on both output 1 & 2.

I wonder if it might be an interesting test to keep an eye on what happens at output 1 while listening to 2, for example with a cheap AVR with a front panel display. They usually update the front display quite noticeably when an HDMI audio format change happens. If you see the cheapie AVR front panel display change at the same time as you hear a dropout on the AVP then you might reasonably conclude that the issue is not (very likely?) between the Lumagen and the AVP, and is in fact further back from the output cabling.

Likewise, if you hear the audio dropout but the cheap AVR is unphased, then the issue is perhaps more likely either a limitation of the failing AVP or an unresolved connectivity issue between the two.


----------



## Mark Burton

bobof said:


> Do you have any other cheap AVR knocking around?
> 
> If I recall right, you have heard the glitches now on both output 1 & 2.
> 
> I wonder if it might be an interesting test to keep an eye on what happens at output 1 while listening to 2, for example with a cheap AVR with a front panel display. They usually update the front display quite noticeably when an HDMI audio format change happens. If you see the cheapie AVR front panel display change at the same time as you hear a dropout on the AVP then you might reasonably conclude that the issue is not (very likely?) between the Lumagen and the AVP, and is in fact further back from the output cabling.
> 
> Likewise, if you hear the audio dropout but the cheap AVR is unphased, then the issue is perhaps more likely either a limitation of the failing AVP or an unresolved connectivity issue between the two.


Honesty not going to bother. I don’t understand why it doesn’t just work when everything else in my system does.

Far far too temperamental and something that shouldn’t be given the price.

i have £300 soundbars in other rooms that don’t cause me any issues. Frustrating is an understatement but I’ve given up wasting precious time trying to resolve the issue. Running audio out on my Zappiti solves it.


----------



## DigitalAV

Mark Burton said:


> Honesty not going to bother. I don’t understand why it doesn’t just work when everything else in my system does.
> 
> Far far too temperamental and something that shouldn’t be given the price.
> 
> i have £300 soundbars in other rooms that don’t cause me any issues. Frustrating is an understatement but I’ve given up wasting precious time trying to resolve the issue. Running audio out on my Zappiti solves it.


Feel your pain, I've set up memories for changing between three different audio EDID formats (Common, CommonNoAtmos, Passback1) to try and resurrect my bitstream audio drops* & I've had it. Going to route audio via my Oppo 205 & really regret buying a 4446 instead of a way cheaper 4442 or 4242.

*mine are a bit different -- no drops in the middle of a program (unless sometimes when I pause), but bitstreammed audio will either happen or not seemingly randomly from the get-go, problem goes away when Lumagen is removed


----------



## appelz

It bugs me to no end to hear about some of the seemingly random projects with HDMI issues. It makes me want to jump on another flight and come take a look at it, run my analyzer on the system and find a solution. I work with probably 20-30 Lumagens a year, and just don't see these sort of consistent issues.

Nearly all of my projects have large equipment racks, which gives me the ability to route power away from any signal cables. I noticed years ago that HDMI cables that worked flawlessly on a test bench and analyzer could have significantly different results once installed. I believe it is likely due to the amount of EMI/RFI inside a metal rack full of power supplies and cheap transformers. In a 45 space rack, there can be 15 devices or more, and probably some sort of RF gateway for lighting or control, a wireless access point, etc. Tough environments. At some point, I switched to a manufacturer that claimed better shielding over the entire construction of the cable, including at the connector. Phone calls about HDMI issues definitely decreased.

As the recommendations to use 2m cables became 3m cables, I also began to plan routing better. I don't coil excess cable, and I don't lay the extra length on top of other components, and instead lace them down the side of the rack loosely. Multiple cables are bundled together only at Lumagen, and if run parallel in other sections of the rack, they are not bundled tightly.

All of that is anecdotal evidence, but I would consider it best practice, and I definitely don't get near as many HDMI related phone calls these days.

Edit : Found a few interesting articles on the subject.



https://passive-components.eu/the-top-five-reasons-products-fail-emi-testing/











HDMI Cables and EMI | Interference Technology


As more consumer and commercial products are introduced with High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) cable connections, the resulting EMI issues related to HDMI cable emissions have continued to be problematic for product designers and EMC engineers. It is very common to […]




interferencetechnology.com













EMC compliance - HDMI Radiated Emissions testing | EMC Bayswater


HDMI Radiated Emissions testing (EMI) is a EMC compliance issue for designers & manufacturers. Fast data speeds for high definition video signals cause EMI.




www.emcbayswater.com.au


----------



## DigitalAV

appelz said:


> It bugs me to no end to hear about some of the seemingly random projects with HDMI issues. It makes me want to jump on another flight and come take a look at it, run my analyzer on the system and find a solution. I work with probably 20-30 Lumagens a year, and just don't see these sort of consistent issues.
> 
> Nearly all of my projects have large equipment racks, which gives me the ability to route power away from any signal cables. I noticed years ago that HDMI cables that worked flawlessly on a test bench and analyzer could have significantly different results once installed. I believe it is likely due to the amount of EMI/RFI inside a metal rack full of power supplies and cheap transformers. In a 45 space rack, there can be 15 devices or more, and probably some sort of RF gateway for lighting or control, a wireless access point, etc. Tough environments. At some point, I switched to a manufacturer that claimed better shielding over the entire construction of the cable, including at the connector. Phone calls about HDMI issues definitely decreased.
> 
> As the recommendations to use 2m cables became 3m cables, I also began to plan routing better. I don't coil excess cable, and I don't lay the extra length on top of other components, and instead lace them down the side of the rack loosely. Multiple cables are bundled together only at Lumagen, and if run parallel in other sections of the rack, they are not bundled tightly.
> 
> All of that is anecdotal evidence, but I would consider it best practice, and I definitely don't get near as many HDMI related phone calls these days.
> 
> Edit : Found a few interesting articles on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> https://passive-components.eu/the-top-five-reasons-products-fail-emi-testing/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HDMI Cables and EMI | Interference Technology
> 
> 
> As more consumer and commercial products are introduced with High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) cable connections, the resulting EMI issues related to HDMI cable emissions have continued to be problematic for product designers and EMC engineers. It is very common to […]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interferencetechnology.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EMC compliance - HDMI Radiated Emissions testing | EMC Bayswater
> 
> 
> HDMI Radiated Emissions testing (EMI) is a EMC compliance issue for designers & manufacturers. Fast data speeds for high definition video signals cause EMI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.emcbayswater.com.au


Yep, saw some of the same recommendations regarding all the HDMI slack (I'm doing a "snake" method & careful not to coil) as going from shorter cables absolutely made a difference in my setup. I have an isolation step-down transformer to separate 20amp circuits feeding my power. To be perfectly honest my A/V preamp can be finicky but never had these problems with my Oppos doing the split A/V work, who knows


----------



## Clark Burk

appelz said:


> It bugs me to no end to hear about some of the seemingly random projects with HDMI issues. It makes me want to jump on another flight and come take a look at it, run my analyzer on the system and find a solution. I work with probably 20-30 Lumagens a year, and just don't see these sort of consistent issues.
> 
> Nearly all of my projects have large equipment racks, which gives me the ability to route power away from any signal cables. I noticed years ago that HDMI cables that worked flawlessly on a test bench and analyzer could have significantly different results once installed. I believe it is likely due to the amount of EMI/RFI inside a metal rack full of power supplies and cheap transformers. In a 45 space rack, there can be 15 devices or more, and probably some sort of RF gateway for lighting or control, a wireless access point, etc. Tough environments. At some point, I switched to a manufacturer that claimed better shielding over the entire construction of the cable, including at the connector. Phone calls about HDMI issues definitely decreased.
> 
> As the recommendations to use 2m cables became 3m cables, I also began to plan routing better. I don't coil excess cable, and I don't lay the extra length on top of other components, and instead lace them down the side of the rack loosely. Multiple cables are bundled together only at Lumagen, and if run parallel in other sections of the rack, they are not bundled tightly.
> 
> All of that is anecdotal evidence, but I would consider it best practice, and I definitely don't get near as many HDMI related phone calls these days.
> 
> Edit : Found a few interesting articles on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> https://passive-components.eu/the-top-five-reasons-products-fail-emi-testing/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HDMI Cables and EMI | Interference Technology
> 
> 
> As more consumer and commercial products are introduced with High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) cable connections, the resulting EMI issues related to HDMI cable emissions have continued to be problematic for product designers and EMC engineers. It is very common to […]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interferencetechnology.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EMC compliance - HDMI Radiated Emissions testing | EMC Bayswater
> 
> 
> HDMI Radiated Emissions testing (EMI) is a EMC compliance issue for designers & manufacturers. Fast data speeds for high definition video signals cause EMI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.emcbayswater.com.au


Interesting post. It made me think of the new 8k cables that have much higher resistance to EMI. Do you think it might be worth it for those having dropout issues to try a 8k cable despite the edge rate issues Jim has been talking about?


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> Well my joy of using output 2 via the RP on the 5348 and getting no audio drops was relatively short lived.
> 
> they’re back with a vengeance, last 3 films, 5 drops in total.
> 
> I’ve given up with it now, I am bypassing the lumagen for audio out. 😩


Like yourself, I’ve had no success in preventing the 5348 from inducing audio dropouts no matter using differing swing levels for either outputs 1 or 2. Back to using the Trinnov 16 as the switcher for my 3 input devices - Tivo Roamio, Zappiti ACE, and Panasonic UB900. Never have an issue with dropouts in this configuration/setup.


----------



## Golan Trevize

Kris Deering said:


> Which fiber optic? There are quite a few that have known issues with Lumagen/projector pairing. Celerity comes to mind immediately.


Hi and thanks,

My problem is solved, after a little haggling I found out that the Radiance entered in a EDID overrride mode and that's why I was stuck at 4.2.0.
Everything is fine now.

On another note, I was able to reach a good compromise with image quality for HDR through my Radiance Pro using an SDR container for my NX7.
My problem (or better said "lack of knowledge") is that although I selected to mantain the HDR flag on the Radiance allowing the JVC N7 to recognise the signal as HDR, I don't know how to set the PJ to auto switch to the correct SDR video mode (BT.2020, Gamma 2.4 etc.), If I select SDR It will keep the settings as for normal SDR content.
In the Auto switch setting under Input Signal section I can only select HDR related modes, like Frame Adapt HDR, HDR10, PanaPQ.
How do you set this to make the projector switch to an SDR mode but with the correct colour space and gamma for HDR?

At the moment I've just created different profiles using the SDR user1,2,3 and I switch manually, but I think I read somewhere it can be done automatically.

I posted here about the PJ because I thought it is probable someone here has my same configuration.

Any help is very appreciated

Thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Golan Trevize said:


> On another note, I was able to reach a good compromise with image quality for HDR through my Radiance Pro using an SDR container for my NX7.
> My problem (or better said "lack of knowledge") is that although I selected to mantain the HDR flag on the Radiance allowing the JVC N7 to recognise the signal as HDR, I don't know how to set the PJ to auto switch to the correct SDR video mode (BT.2020, Gamma 2.4 etc.), If I select SDR It will keep the settings as for normal SDR content.
> In the Auto switch setting under Input Signal section I can only select HDR related modes, like Frame Adapt HDR, HDR10, PanaPQ.
> How do you set this to make the projector switch to an SDR mode but with the correct colour space and gamma for HDR?
> 
> I posted here about the PJ because I thought it is probable someone here has my same configuration.











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Today JVC released the official new FW v3.50... but what i readed here thats BETA didn't work very well with Lumagen Radiance PRO Not quite sure what you are saying. I would not expect the LRP to work well with the Theater Optimizer. You only want one tone mapping operation working at a time.




www.avsforum.com


----------



## DVD MAN

You will need to import a Custom 2.4 Gamma then you can add it to the HDR10 Mode. See Picture:


----------



## bjorg

@sonyxbrx900f shared this on the Trinnov thread.

IMAX Enhanced to Launch on Disney+ with Titles from the Marvel Cinematic Universe in IMAX’s Expanded Aspect Ratio | DMED Media 

I can only pray they allow to turn this off, as I use the Lumagen to detect the AR and switch scaling accordingly. This is going to mess me up bad...


----------



## Golan Trevize

Gordon Fraser said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Today JVC released the official new FW v3.50... but what i readed here thats BETA didn't work very well with Lumagen Radiance PRO Not quite sure what you are saying. I would not expect the LRP to work well with the Theater Optimizer. You only want one tone mapping operation working at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


yes that is exactly my problem, I don’t want the NX7 to apply any tone mapping after the radiance processing, but I’d like the PJ to switch to correct SDR mode when it recognise the HDR signal (in SDR container) coming from the radiance.

if there isn’t any difference in quality I’ll keep switching manually for the moment, creating the custom gamma is beyond me without competent help…

thanks


----------



## bobof

Golan Trevize said:


> yes that is exactly my problem, I don’t want the NX7 to apply any tone mapping after the radiance processing, but I’d like the PJ to switch to correct SDR mode when it recognise the HDR signal (in SDR container) coming from the radiance.
> 
> if there isn’t any difference in quality I’ll keep switching manually for the moment, creating the custom gamma is beyond me without competent help…
> 
> thanks


I use a python script running on a raspberry pi to detect the input format the Lumagen receives from the source, and to then switch the JVC projector to the desired user mode. Works really well, but only recommended if you are happy with scripts etc.


----------



## Golan Trevize

Well, what can I say, I’d really like for someone with the expertise of everyone here to be in Rome and maybe help me at my place, instead of being half a world away ;-)

I’ll keep you informed on my struggle


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Golan Trevize said:


> Well, what can I say, I’d really like for someone with the expertise of everyone here to be in Rome and maybe help me at my place, instead of being half a world away ;-)
> 
> I’ll keep you informed on my struggle


Did you actually read the posts linked? It explains how to set Auto detect on latest JVC firmware so it auto loads a USER 4 PRESET when HDR flag is detected. set with default imported gamma rather that JVC's dynamic tone mapping. No user intervention required.


----------



## Karl Maga

Golan Trevize said:


> Well, what can I say, I’d really like for someone with the expertise of everyone here to be in Rome and maybe help me at my place, instead of being half a world away ;-)
> 
> I’ll keep you informed on my struggle


Perhaps you could pay a consultant to configure your Radiance Pro remotely and guide you through setup of your projector to coordinate with the Radiance Pro configuration.

I did something similar to this and it enhanced my enjoyment of the products quite a bit.


----------



## Golan Trevize

Gordon Fraser said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Today JVC released the official new FW v3.50... but what i readed here thats BETA didn't work very well with Lumagen Radiance PRO Not quite sure what you are saying. I would not expect the LRP to work well with the Theater Optimizer. You only want one tone mapping operation working at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Thanks,
I followed the procedure and now the PJ switches automatically to HDR but keeping the correct Gamma/Tone mapping.
The next step is to calibrate gamma and color in HDR.
At the moment I can't do it with the Radiance, I need an expert for that.

About the Radiance Pro settings for HDR, considering I have a white 1.2 100" screen, what would you suggest to get the best from it? 

Thank you


----------



## SJHT

bjorg said:


> @sonyxbrx900f shared this on the Trinnov thread.
> 
> IMAX Enhanced to Launch on Disney+ with Titles from the Marvel Cinematic Universe in IMAX’s Expanded Aspect Ratio | DMED Media
> 
> I can only pray they allow to turn this off, as I use the Lumagen to detect the AR and switch scaling accordingly. This is going to mess me up bad...


Shangi Chi is out today on Disney+ in that format. Also, just purchased from K and it is 2.4… SJ


----------



## Craig Peer

Been a while since we had a firmware update. That pipeline improvement must be getting close!


----------



## Clark Burk

Craig Peer said:


> Been a while since we had a firmware update. That pipeline improvement must be getting close!


Just about a month. Seems to be the norm. It’s quiet. Everyone must be happy watching movies.


----------



## dlinsley

Craig Peer said:


> Been a while since we had a firmware update. That pipeline improvement must be getting close!


Not that I've any complaints as things stand, but I am looking forward to seeing what the planned improvements bring for the scale down of non-scope content on a fixed lens (DCR) system. Maybe a surprise announcement of an 8k output card to make that moot with the new JVCs


----------



## Nima

Can any JVC owner please point me to a description how to use the full panel (4096) with a scope screen and the zoom method? 

TIA
N.


----------



## asharma

Nima said:


> Can any JVC owner please point me to a description how to use the full panel (4096) with a scope screen and the zoom method?
> 
> TIA
> N.


See post 13264 from Jim as a starting point…


----------



## jrp

Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement update:

The redesigns for the major portions of the pipeline are complete. Patrick is working on integration, debugging the changes, design optimization, and synthesis. So I believe the first Alpha release is likely less than one month away (but it could be two months away given how debug and synthesis often takes longer than expected).

Note that we will likely do an Alpha Release once the base pipeline enhancements are working, and then we will do additional releases as more features become operational (e.g. NLS, and improved downscaling for 16:9 on a 2.40 screen).

As I have mentioned the Alpha Release will be limited to a few people. If you want to make your case to be on the Alpha test team, please email me at the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## asharma

jrp said:


> Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement update:
> 
> The redesigns for the major portions of the pipeline are complete. Patrick is working on integration, debugging the changes, design optimization, and synthesis. So I believe the first Alpha release is likely less than one month away (but it could be two months away given how debug and synthesis often takes longer than expected).
> 
> Note that we will likely do an Alpha Release once the base pipeline enhancements are working, and then we will do additional releases as more features become operational (e.g. NLS, and improved downscaling for 16:9 on a 2.40 screen).
> 
> As I have mentioned the Alpha Release will be limited to a few people. If you want to make your case to be on the Alpha test team, please email me at the lumagen.com support email.


Thanks Jim, is there a list somewhere of the improvements foreseen in the Alpha release?


----------



## adrake23

Has there been any discussion for a subtitle management feature? This is what I most would like to see with my Lumagen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drexler

Is there a quick guide how to make a setting where the bottom border is moved up so that streaming subtitles are visible on a 2.40:1 screen with an a-lens? 

I spent the whole night trying to achieve it but cant figure it out. Is there a way to shift the image up or down, or shrink it just so that the subtitles get visible? I tried the latter by using the shrink feature both H and V by 5% which left enough space below so that the subtitles should be visible, but they were still cropped...

I would appreciate any help or links!
Thanks!!


----------



## jrp

asharma said:


> Thanks Jim, is there a list somewhere of the improvements foreseen in the Alpha release?


Here is my expected list for the _first_ Alpha Release improvements:


Up-scaling anything to anything, including 4096 wide output and anamorphic content scaling.
Some of the 16:9 on a 2.40 screen down-scaling improvement.
We may not have NLS in the first Alpha release.
There may be some limits on settings in the first Alpha release. I am not sure what these will be.

I expect further down-scaling improvements will be in later releases. We will complete NLS and remove other possible limits in future Alpha releases.

This is the entire list that we have been discussing for the pipeline enhancements. There may be some continuing enhancements if we see ways to further improve on what is already the industries best video processing.


----------



## asharma

jrp said:


> Here is my expected list for the _first_ Alpha Release improvements:
> 
> 
> Up-scaling anything to anything, including 4096 wide output and anamorphic content scaling.
> Some of the 16:9 on a 2.40 screen down-scaling improvement.
> We may not have NLS in the first Alpha release.
> There may be some limits on settings in the first Alpha release. I am not sure what these will be.
> 
> I expect further down-scaling improvements will be in later releases. We will complete NLS and remove other possible limits in future Alpha releases.
> 
> This is the entire list that we have been discussing for the pipeline enhancements. There may be some continuing enhancements if we see ways to further improve on what is already the industries best video processing.


Thanks Jim…when you mention NLS, do you mean improvements to the current implementation? What are you specifically targeting in regards to the improvement?


----------



## Killroy

Are the pipeline enhancements hardware or software based? Meaning do we need new hardware or do current units benefit from the enhancements?


----------



## jrp

Killroy said:


> Are the pipeline enhancements hardware or software based? Meaning do we need new hardware or do current units benefit from the enhancements?


The Radiance Pro uses an FPGA chip. The FPGA is "reprogrammable hardware." So this is a "hardware redesign" but one you can download as part of a normal software update. You will _not_ need any hardware changes to your unit.


----------



## Killroy

WOOHHOOO!!!!


----------



## Mark_H

Drexler said:


> I spent the whole night trying to achieve it but cant figure it out. Is there a way to shift the image up or down, or shrink it just so that the subtitles get visible? I tried the latter by using the shrink feature both H and V by 5% which left enough space below so that the subtitles should be visible, but they were still cropped...


Take a look under 
MENU->Input->In Configs->[Resolution]->[#]->Size->[Aspect Ratio]->Vert Shift

You can shift the image upwards as needed.


----------



## Erod

Is it the general practice of Lumagen owners to convert all content to BT2020 across the board?


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> Is it the general practice of Lumagen owners to convert all content to BT2020 across the board?


We recommend that if the projector/TV does a good job for Rec2020 that both CMS0 (SDR) and CMS1 (HDR) output Colorspace be set to SDR2020. This is of course up to you and you can leave CMS0.Colorspace=SDR709.

However, by always outputting SDR2020 one type of output restart is eliminated (709 to/from 2020), and assuming your projector is about 106 nits or less allows you to have a single calibration that cover both SDR and HDR content , if you are like me and prefer SDR at the mastering level in the 106 nit range. Make sure the "601/709 <==> 2020" is set to Auto convert.

As I have mentioned, if you like you can do an independent Rec709 calibration in CMS0 using 709 patterns and 709 targets. This works since the Pro converts the 709 data to 2020 data, then the projector/TV displays the data in 2020, which puts all the points at their correct location in Rec709. So, this calibration works exactly as a standard Rec 709 3D LUT does.


----------



## adrake23

jrp said:


> Here is my expected list for the _first_ Alpha Release improvements:
> 
> 
> Up-scaling anything to anything, including 4096 wide output and anamorphic content scaling.
> Some of the 16:9 on a 2.40 screen down-scaling improvement.
> We may not have NLS in the first Alpha release.
> There may be some limits on settings in the first Alpha release. I am not sure what these will be.
> 
> I expect further down-scaling improvements will be in later releases. We will complete NLS and remove other possible limits in future Alpha releases.
> 
> This is the entire list that we have been discussing for the pipeline enhancements. There may be some continuing enhancements if we see ways to further improve on what is already the industries best video processing.


Thanks Jim. What is the process for requesting a subtitle management feature?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

Drexler said:


> Is there a quick guide how to make a setting where the bottom border is moved up so that streaming subtitles are visible on a 2.40:1 screen with an a-lens?
> 
> I spent the whole night trying to achieve it but cant figure it out. Is there a way to shift the image up or down, or shrink it just so that the subtitles get visible? I tried the latter by using the shrink feature both H and V by 5% which left enough space below so that the subtitles should be visible, but they were still cropped...
> 
> I would appreciate any help or links!
> Thanks!!


The quick solution is one posted by Kris Deering. That is, choose a source aspect that is less than the actual source aspect. So, for example 2.0 for a 2.40 movie. This leaves some room at the bottom for the closed captioning. However, it also leaves a black letterbox bar at the top, so the image is not as large as it could be.

I suggest selecting a different input memory. Then you can then use the Input.In Configs.Resolution.Sizing.Vert Shift to move the top of the image to the top of the screen for each specific aspect ratio. This may allow you to use a larger source aspect ratio and still see all of the closed caption text.

The vertical shift is a per-input, per-input-memory, and per-input-mode, control. So, after setting this for one input, and input memory, for all the input resolution/modes that may be used, you then use the Input.Copy, to copy the settings to all inputs and all memories.

Save your changes.


----------



## aguy

adrake23 said:


> Thanks Jim. What is the process for requesting a subtitle management feature?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Curious how subtitles could be managed in the lumagen ? I would have thought that needs to be done in the source device 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## adrake23

aguy said:


> Curious how subtitles could be managed in the lumagen ? I would have thought that needs to be done in the source device
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, I watched a video regarding MadVR that it has subtitle management. So, if it could do it, I’m certain the superior Lumagen could have it as well. NLS is great but there seems to be a lot of content where the subtitles occupies the bottom of the picture and below the bottom black bar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drexler

jrp said:


> The quick solution is one posted by Kris Deering. That is, choose a source aspect that is less than the actual source aspect. So, for example 2.0 for a 2.40 movie. This leaves some room at the bottom for the closed captioning. However, it also leaves a black letterbox bar at the top, so the image is not as large as it could be.
> 
> I suggest selecting a different input memory. Then you can then use the Input.In Configs.Resolution.Sizing.Vert Shift to move the top of the image to the top of the screen for each specific aspect ratio. This may allow you to use a larger source aspect ratio and still see all of the closed caption text.
> 
> The vertical shift is a per-input, per-input-memory, and per-input-mode, control. So, after setting this for one input, and input memory, for all the input resolution/modes that may be used, you then use the Input.Copy, to copy the settings to all inputs and all memories.
> 
> Save your changes.





Mark_H said:


> Take a look under
> MENU->Input->In Configs->[Resolution]->[#]->Size->[Aspect Ratio]->Vert Shift
> 
> You can shift the image upwards as needed.


Thank you for the tip, will try! 😀


----------



## Drexler

jrp said:


> The quick solution is one posted by Kris Deering. That is, choose a source aspect that is less than the actual source aspect. So, for example 2.0 for a 2.40 movie. This leaves some room at the bottom for the closed captioning. However, it also leaves a black letterbox bar at the top, so the image is not as large as it could be.
> 
> I suggest selecting a different input memory. Then you can then use the Input.In Configs.Resolution.Sizing.Vert Shift to move the top of the image to the top of the screen for each specific aspect ratio. This may allow you to use a larger source aspect ratio and still see all of the closed caption text.
> 
> The vertical shift is a per-input, per-input-memory, and per-input-mode, control. So, after setting this for one input, and input memory, for all the input resolution/modes that may be used, you then use the Input.Copy, to copy the settings to all inputs and all memories.
> 
> Save your changes.


Thanks!

Another thing I was thinking about while playing around with the aspect ratios was the following:

Is there a way to change aspect ratio of the direct buttons on the remote? I have a 2.40:1 screen so the direct 2.35:1 button doesnt fill the width of the screen. It would be nice to have a direct button for this instead of the 2.35 that I dont use. 

I suppose I could make a separate memory for that, but if there is a way to tweak the button setting I would prefer that. Then I could have the auto-aspect on but help it along in the cases it's acting a bit slow. With a separate memory slot locked to 2.40 I would not detect any coming aspect ratio shifts.


----------



## bobof

Drexler said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Another thing I was thinking about while playing around with the aspect ratios was the following:
> 
> Is there a way to change aspect ratio of the direct buttons on the remote? I have a 2.40:1 screen so the direct 2.35:1 button doesnt fill the width of the screen. It would be nice to have a direct button for this instead of the 2.35 that I dont use.
> 
> I suppose I could make a separate memory for that, but if there is a way to tweak the button setting I would prefer that. Then I could have the auto-aspect on but help it along in the cases it's acting a bit slow. With a separate memory slot locked to 2.40 I would not detect any coming aspect ratio shifts.


You can swap the function of 2.4 and 2.35 on that button in the menus. Though the new remote also has direct buttons for all the ARs.
You can also merge the ARs for autoaspect detection, and map 2.35 detected content to actually use 2.4.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bobof said:


> You can swap the function of 2.4 and 2.35 on that button in the menus. Though the new remote also has direct buttons for all the ARs.
> You can also merge the ARs for autoaspect detection, and map 2.35 detected content to actually use 2.4.


Plus ALT 2.35:1 on remote is 2.40:1


----------



## Drexler

bobof said:


> You can swap the function of 2.4 and 2.35 on that button in the menus. Though the new remote also has direct buttons for all the ARs.


Thanks, that would be great! Can you describe where to go in the menu to implement the change? I was looking for the option but couldnt find it...


----------



## bobof

Drexler said:


> Thanks, that would be great! Can you describe where to go in the menu to implement the change? I was looking for the option but couldnt find it...


See pics attached.


----------



## garyolearysteele

I'm looking to replace my AVR as one last roll of the dice in attempting to prevent audio drop issues. Has anyone on here successfully used the Anthem MRX 1140 with the Lumagen ? By that I mean audio out from RP into the Anthem with no audio drop out issues at all (not using the Anthem as the switch).

Please, before the pitch forks come out, i'm not trying to open this old wound, would just love to hear if anyone has a positive experience with this particular receiver. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Killroy

garyolearysteele said:


> I'm looking to replace my AVR as one last roll of the dice in attempting to prevent audio drop issues. Has anyone on here successfully used the Anthem MRX 1140 with the Lumagen ? By that I mean audio out from RP into the Anthem with no audio drop out issues at all (not using the Anthem as the switch).
> 
> Please, before the pitch forks come out, i'm not trying to open this old wound, would just love to hear if anyone has a positive experience with this particular receiver.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I am beginning to suspect that most (if not all) audio drops are due to the source (streaming and some some audio specs) and the player rather than the Lumagen or the AVR/Processor. Let me explain...

I was having serious audio drops on some/various DTS-MA and Atmos movies on my set up (see signature) and there was nothing I could do to remedy the situation. Slowly as apps on the Shield were updated some were improved but others got worse. Kodi and Amazon were at the top of the issues. When Kodi 19.3 came out I have pretty much not had any audio drops from Atmos or DTS-MA. Amazon was doing better then one update got worse again but the next update fixed it again (for their Atmos tracks). Another player that gives me horrible audio drops is the Zidoo Z1000 Pro on UHD titles but NOT on Blu-ray. This happens no matter where I put the LRP on the chain....even when I put the LRP with no audio going through it. Since that's not my preferred method I have kept the Zidoo out of my chain for now but keep testing each new beta with no changes.


----------



## jbrinegar

garyolearysteele said:


> I'm looking to replace my AVR as one last roll of the dice in attempting to prevent audio drop issues. Has anyone on here successfully used the Anthem MRX 1140 with the Lumagen ? By that I mean audio out from RP into the Anthem with no audio drop out issues at all (not using the Anthem as the switch).
> 
> Please, before the pitch forks come out, i'm not trying to open this old wound, would just love to hear if anyone has a positive experience with this particular receiver.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I use a 1120 without any problems. Not sure how similar the 1120 and 1140 are FWIW. Ive used it both ways (lumagen as the switcher and anthem 1120 as the switcher) with no dropout problems. I currently use the anthem as the switcher since I like having the OSD. Devices: Apple 4k tv (2nd gen), PS5, oppo 203


----------



## DigitalAV

Are we talking audio drops while watching in the middle of -- or when first starting -- a program (from either a streaming service or local source)?

FWIW here's my experience (only relevant for drops when starting a program -- e.g., in Hulu the 2ch PCM "intro" logo chime works, but then when starting a program with Dolby Digital+ it won't "lock on" to the bitstream from the get-go -- i.e., not relevant at all when listening to a DTSMA soundtrack as an example and it dropping in the middle):

On a LRP with 4 outputs (2 output cards each with audio and video), after an insane amount of testing, I've found that my best bet currently at no drops is to use the outputs only from one card (e.g., Output 4 for video and Output 3 for audio).

If an 18G output card, setting to AB (audio only on 3 which is the only option and both audio/video on 4) is key for me -- setting to AV (audio only and video only) has major bitstream lock-on issues in my setup. I then use PassBackOut3 Audio EDID but also have memories for Common and CommonNoAtmos (my audio processor does not have Atmos) to very rarely switch back-and-forth to force an audio output reset.

If a 9G output card, I found BB (audio/video on both) gave the best chance at no drops along with PassBackOut to audio processor, but still needed switching back and forth from Common/CommonNoAtmos more frequently than my 18G card for whatever reason to get the bitstream to kick in.

When using both cards (e.g., Output 1 and Output 4, etc), I would get drops (really, "blips" -- meaning either just video or both audio and video would drop for a second but then recover) very occasionally -- like once every 3 hours or so -- only when using Roku as my source (on any input).

For Nvidia Shield TV 2017, I absolutely could not get bitstreamed audio to work no matter what I tried, and instead have to route through my Oppo 203 to do the audio decoding and outputting multichannel PCM through the LRP to my audio processor.

I'm adding a second display soon & upgrading my 9G output card to 18G with microwave caps, hopefully everything will still run smoothly -- will probably treat each display as Zombie from the get-go and cut the power for each when not in use.

Note, I've only ever used firmware 082621 & have not yet tried 090121.

Hopefully this helps someone, apologies if it doesn't.


----------



## DigitalAV

jbrinegar said:


> I use a 1120 without any problems. Not sure how similar the 1120 and 1140 are FWIW. Ive used it both ways (lumagen as the switcher and anthem 1120 as the switcher) with no dropout problems. I currently use the anthem as the switcher since I like having the OSD. Devices: Apple 4k tv (2nd gen), PS5, oppo 203


Which outputs are you using and what's your output enable set to?


----------



## Erod

Does the DTM capabilities of the Lumagen make the auto iris unnecessary altogether on projectors?


----------



## Mark Burton

garyolearysteele said:


> I'm looking to replace my AVR as one last roll of the dice in attempting to prevent audio drop issues. Has anyone on here successfully used the Anthem MRX 1140 with the Lumagen ? By that I mean audio out from RP into the Anthem with no audio drop out issues at all (not using the Anthem as the switch).
> 
> Please, before the pitch forks come out, i'm not trying to open this old wound, would just love to hear if anyone has a positive experience with this particular receiver.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Get one on 14 day return mate, gut feeling is you’ll get no improvement though.


----------



## netroamer

*Apple TV App via Roku Ultimate through RP 4446*

Last year I subscribed to the Apple TV App and had so many audio garbling and video freezing issues, I gave up. What was frustrating was that is was only this app; all other apps through the Roku were no problem.

Fast forward,,,I subscribed to a trial again with the thought they had a year to work out this issue. Well...it's the same. This time, after testing various programs on the Apple TV app, I thought at first it may be another input sending multiple interrupts to the RP, but because it it specific to the Apple App that did not seem probable so I bypassed the RP and sent the video directly to the projector and the audio via optical to my Lyngdorf MP-50. The problem went away. I am sure it is not a cabling issue as the cables are 3m certified and were switched out during testing nor do I think it is a RP output issue as I upgraded to the new microwave 18ghz output cards on the RP.

Why this one app is not working well through the RP is puzzling.Has anyone else had and/or determined the cause of the issue, because I consider the programming unwatchable.


----------



## jbrinegar

DigitalAV said:


> Which outputs are you using and what's your output enable set to?


Currently (using my anthem 1120 as the switcher) If I remember correctly, the only output Im using is output 4 which sends video directly to my rs3000. I think I have my outputs set to: NNNV


----------



## DigitalAV

netroamer said:


> *Apple TV App via Roku Ultimate through RP 4446*
> 
> Last year I subscribed to the Apple TV App and had so many audio garbling and video freezing issues, I gave up. What was frustrating was that is was only this app; all other apps through the Roku were no problem.
> 
> Fast forward,,,I subscribed to a trial again with the thought they had a year to work out this issue. Well...it's the same. This time, after testing various programs on the Apple TV app, I thought at first it may be another input sending multiple interrupts to the RP, but because it it specific to the Apple App that did not seem probable so I bypassed the RP and sent the video directly to the projector and the audio via optical to my Lyngdorf MP-50. The problem went away. I am sure it is not a cabling issue as the cables are 3m certified and were switched out during testing nor do I think it is a RP output issue as I upgraded to the new microwave 18ghz output cards on the RP.
> 
> Why this one app is not working well through the RP is puzzling.Has anyone else had and/or determined the cause of the issue, because I consider the programming unwatchable.


Have you by chance tried uninstalling the app, restart Roku, reinstall the app? Also, have you tried 4k60 with and without HDR within Roku just to see if the app shows the same issue?


----------



## MOberhardt

garyolearysteele said:


> I'm looking to replace my AVR as one last roll of the dice in attempting to prevent audio drop issues. Has anyone on here successfully used the Anthem MRX 1140 with the Lumagen ? By that I mean audio out from RP into the Anthem with no audio drop out issues at all (not using the Anthem as the switch).
> 
> Please, before the pitch forks come out, i'm not trying to open this old wound, would just love to hear if anyone has a positive experience with this particular receiver.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I'm running an 1120 but have the Lumagen between it and the projector

That said - check source also. The only thing I've gotten audio dropouts on is stuff from my Panasonic UHD player. Sometimes after pausing, sometimes after fast forwarding. So if that is your source, may be that.


----------



## netroamer

DigitalAV said:


> Have you by chance tried uninstalling the app, restart Roku, reinstall the app? Also, have you tried 4k60 with and without HDR within Roku just to see if the app shows the same issue?


Because the material played correctly when bypassing the RP, I did not think the app was the issue. However, to be thorough I did the delete/reboot/reload and change the display to 4k/60 without HDR. The issue is still present.Before replacing the Roku, I'll try sending the info to Pat and Jim.


----------



## Drexler

jrp said:


> The quick solution is one posted by Kris Deering. That is, choose a source aspect that is less than the actual source aspect. So, for example 2.0 for a 2.40 movie. This leaves some room at the bottom for the closed captioning. However, it also leaves a black letterbox bar at the top, so the image is not as large as it could be.
> 
> I suggest selecting a different input memory. Then you can then use the Input.In Configs.Resolution.Sizing.Vert Shift to move the top of the image to the top of the screen for each specific aspect ratio. This may allow you to use a larger source aspect ratio and still see all of the closed caption text.
> 
> The vertical shift is a per-input, per-input-memory, and per-input-mode, control. So, after setting this for one input, and input memory, for all the input resolution/modes that may be used, you then use the Input.Copy, to copy the settings to all inputs and all memories.
> 
> Save your changes.


I can't seem to make the vertical shift work. I can go into the menu and change the shift setting, but absolutely nothing happens with the image. Do I need to activate the shift somehow?

E.g. I take the 4K-0 setting and go to vert shift, then select setting #1, set that to 200, press ok, press exit. Press save. No change...


----------



## Drexler

Drexler said:


> I can't seem to make the vertical shift work. I can go into the menu and change the shift setting, but absolutely nothing happens with the image. Do I need to activate the shift somehow?
> 
> E.g. I take the 4K-0 setting and go to vert shift, then select setting #1, set that to 200, press ok, press exit. Press save. No change...


I finally got it to work. It takes some digging in the menues to get all the ducks in a row...


----------



## tomasg

Erod said:


> Does the DTM capabilities of the Lumagen make the auto iris unnecessary altogether on projectors?


I am interested too


----------



## Craig Peer

tomasg said:


> I am interested too


In my opinion - no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## joerod

Killroy said:


> I am beginning to suspect that most (if not all) audio drops are due to the source (streaming and some some audio specs) and the player rather than the Lumagen or the AVR/Processor. Let me explain...
> 
> I was having serious audio drops on some/various DTS-MA and Atmos movies on my set up (see signature) and there was nothing I could do to remedy the situation. Slowly as apps on the Shield were updated some were improved but others got worse. Kodi and Amazon were at the top of the issues. When Kodi 19.3 came out I have pretty much not had any audio drops from Atmos or DTS-MA. Amazon was doing better then one update got worse again but the next update fixed it again (for their Atmos tracks). Another player that gives me horrible audio drops is the Zidoo Z1000 Pro on UHD titles but NOT on Blu-ray. This happens no matter where I put the LRP on the chain....even when I put the LRP with no audio going through it. Since that's not my preferred method I have kept the Zidoo out of my chain for now but keep testing each new beta with no changes.


I have never had a single audio drop using the new Apple TV, Shield and latest Roku model in my theater. I have currently again a McIntosh MX170 but also had the latest Marantz as well. And we stream our movies about 80% of the time these days…


----------



## MDesigns

Erod said:


> Does the DTM capabilities of the Lumagen make the auto iris unnecessary altogether on projectors?


IMO those are not really related in any way.


----------



## Killroy

joerod said:


> I have never had a single audio drop using the new Apple TV, Shield and latest Roku model in my theater. I have currently again a McIntosh MX170 but also had the latest Marantz as well. And we stream our movies about 80% of the time these days…


Lucky you! Unfortunately, the Atmos drops are a very long standing problem on the Shield dating back more than 3 years. The higher the bitrate on the Atmos track the more problems it had. Kodi 19.3 finally seemed to fix the majority of the issues (The Beatles: Abbey Road is finally playable on the Shield). DTS-MA is a bit more noticeable on SOME seamless branched titles but those cn be fixed with a simple single file remux.

All of these are long documented in the various forums and seemed to affect almost every single type of AVR or processor. I had them on a Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo and lastly on the HTP1.

The Martian Extended Edition also had horrible drops and glitches on several scenes due to the seamless branching.






EDIT - moved text from under video to top


----------



## joerod

Killroy said:


> Lucky you! Unfortunately, the Atmos drops are a very long standing problem on the Shield dating back more than 3 years. The higher the bitrate on the Atmos track the more problems it had. Kodi 19.3 finally seemed to fix the majority of the issues (The Beatles: Abbey Road is finally playable on the Shield). DTS-MA is a bit more noticeable on SOME seamless branched titles but those cn be fixed with a simple single file remux.
> 
> All of these are long documented in the various forums and seemed to affect almost every single type of AVR or processor. I had them on a Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo and lastly on the HTP1.
> 
> The Martian Extended Edition also had horrible drops and glitches on several scenes due to the seamless branching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT - moved text from under video to top


Lucky me for having an Envy. I’ll go with that.


----------



## Killroy

joerod said:


> Lucky me for having an Envy. I’ll go with that.


Nice try, but.... Had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Envy or the Lumagen as these problems are well documented by people that do not own EITHER. I did not buy the Lumagen till late 2020 and my The Martian issues were there since late 2018 or early 2019. The problems were present on HTPCs that used MAdVR as well. My HTPC also had the issues with MadVR and ALL of these titles.

We spent months coordinating testing parameters to determine what the lowest common denominator was and in the case of the Martian it was a bug in LAVfilters decoder that was the culprit. Since almost ALL players use LAV in one way or another the issue was present almost everywhere. Some apps were not able to fix the issues since their LAVfilters were locked in their forks. Kodi was the slowest to fix the problem and then the Atmos issue appeared. Same testing determined that the issue in the way that Shield (and some other players) were packing the bitstream which caused issues. It introduced small gaps that should have been corrected at the audio decoder but weren't. Previously, the seamless branched Atmos Disney titles also had gaps at the seamless branch and those were introduced no matter if you put MadVR or a Lumagen in the chain. This bug has never been fixed and it is present to this day. You can fix them, somewhat, with newer remuxing apps but they still seem to show up for no reason. I can duplicate these errors with or without the Lumagen or MadVR on the HTPC.


----------



## sjschaff

Audio dropouts - take a poll among those with/without any problems and post the question: are you sending your input devices to your LRP or your audio processor first? That will be a good first start at where to being problem determination. My reading of this forum suggests that the vast majority of those who have "fixed" their problems moved from the LRP as the switch to their audio processor and then output from that unit to the LRP, to only deal with video output.


----------



## jbrinegar

sjschaff said:


> Audio dropouts - take a poll among those with/without any problems and post the question: are you sending your input devices to your LRP or your audio processor first? That will be a good first start at where to being problem determination. My reading of this forum suggests that the vast majority of those who have "fixed" their problems moved from the LRP as the switch to their audio processor and then output from that unit to the LRP, to only deal with video output.


Ive used it both ways with no audio dropouts (apple 4k tv, ps5, oppo 203, JVC RS3000 with rupiro 30 ft fiber and 6 ft monoprice prem certified between devices).

Im currently using my anthem av as the switcher (my preferred way so I can see the anthem OSD)


----------



## netroamer

netroamer said:


> *Apple TV App via Roku Ultimate through RP 4446*
> 
> Last year I subscribed to the Apple TV App and had so many audio garbling and video freezing issues, I gave up. What was frustrating was that is was only this app; all other apps through the Roku were no problem.
> 
> Fast forward,,,I subscribed to a trial again with the thought they had a year to work out this issue. Well...it's the same. This time, after testing various programs on the Apple TV app, I thought at first it may be another input sending multiple interrupts to the RP, but because it it specific to the Apple App that did not seem probable so I bypassed the RP and sent the video directly to the projector and the audio via optical to my Lyngdorf MP-50. The problem went away. I am sure it is not a cabling issue as the cables are 3m certified and were switched out during testing nor do I think it is a RP output issue as I upgraded to the new microwave 18ghz output cards on the RP.
> 
> Why this one app is not working well through the RP is puzzling.Has anyone else had and/or determined the cause of the issue, because I consider the programming unwatchable.





netroamer said:


> Because the material played correctly when bypassing the RP, I did not think the app was the issue. However, to be thorough I did the delete/reboot/reload and change the display to 4k/60 without HDR. The issue is still present.Before replacing the Roku, I'll try sending the info to Pat and Jim.


*UPDATE*--The Roku Ultra I have is first generation. I decided to update it to the current version to view the Apple TV app on it. I ordered it from Amazon yesterday at 5:00PM and they delivered it at 9:00PM (not bad). I put it on line this AM and played the first title, Greyhound, and it played for about 40min with NO A/V dropouts or freezing. A good beginning.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

sjschaff said:


> Audio dropouts - take a poll among those with/without any problems and post the question: are you sending your input devices to your LRP or your audio processor first? That will be a good first start at where to being problem determination. My reading of this forum suggests that the vast majority of those who have "fixed" their problems moved from the LRP as the switch to their audio processor and then output from that unit to the LRP, to only deal with video output.


I tried both way of connect, and in the end the problem was my cables. Followed JRP's advice and downgraded all my 8k cables to 4k cables (now Monoprice 3m and RuiPro fiber 10m) and very happy.  I have a 4242 so I have Shield, ATV4k and Oppo inputs into LRP and the rest thru Marantz AVR then to LRP. Knock on wood.


----------



## Clark Burk

I guess it’s welcome to the world of HDMI. In no other instance can I think of a case where if you get a better performing cable that it can be detrimental to performance. Yes it‘s totally possible to get better cables in other areas and not be able to see or hear an improvement but really hard to believe you can have worse performance with better cables.


----------



## netroamer

Clark Burk said:


> I guess it’s welcome to the world of HDMI. In no other instance can I think of a case where if you get a better performing cable that it can be detrimental to performance. Yes it‘s totally possible to get better cables in other areas and not be able to see or hear an improvement but really hard to believe you can have worse performance with better cables.


JRP stated that it is the edge rate of 8k cables that is the problem. However, it is really system dependent. I use 3m 8k cables on all my inputs and a 15m 8k cable to my projector and there are no glitches that are traceable to the cables. I do have the latest 18ghz microwave output cards.


----------



## MDesigns

netroamer said:


> JRP stated that it is the edge rate of 8k cables that is the problem. However, it is really system dependent. I use 3m 8k cables on all my inputs and a 15m 8k cable to my projector and there are no glitches that are traceable to the cables. I do have the latest 18ghz microwave output cards.


IMO passive cables can not have any affect to make edge rates faster or slower. I think @jrp must mean the longer active copper or fiber cables.


----------



## Geof

MDesigns said:


> IMO passive cables can not have any affect to make edge rates faster or slower. I think @jrp must mean the longer active copper or fiber cables.


If a cable has higher bandwidth (BW) it follows that is also exhibits faster edge rates compared to a lower bandwidth cable. The approximate relationship is: 
Rise time = 0.35/BW......as BW increases rise and fall times decrease - ie, faster edge rates...


----------



## Clark Burk

I was curious about whether upgrading the HDMI input and output cards to 2.1 would serve any purpose on the LRP? Granted the higher bandwidth capability would not be very useful but could any of the other features of 2.1 be useful if connected to another 2.1 input or output?


----------



## MDesigns

Geof said:


> *If a cable has higher bandwidth (BW) it follows* that is also exhibits faster edge rates compared to a lower bandwidth cable. The approximate relationship is:
> Rise time = 0.35/BW......as BW increases rise and fall times decrease - ie, faster edge rates...


What do you mean with "it follows"? A passive copper cable uses exactly the edge rates the source device sends through it. Not faster, not slower.


----------



## steelman1991

Killroy said:


> Lucky you! Unfortunately, the Atmos drops are a very long standing problem on the Shield dating back more than 3 years. The higher the bitrate on the Atmos track the more problems it had. Kodi 19.3 finally seemed to fix the majority of the issues (The Beatles: Abbey Road is finally playable on the Shield). DTS-MA is a bit more noticeable on SOME seamless branched titles but those cn be fixed with a simple single file remux.
> 
> All of these are long documented in the various forums and seemed to affect almost every single type of AVR or processor. I had them on a Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo and lastly on the HTP1.
> 
> The Martian Extended Edition also had horrible drops and glitches on several scenes due to the seamless branching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT - moved text from under video to top


Also afflicted and still does the Vero4K+. Like you say Kilroy nothing to do with the VPs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Geof

MDesigns said:


> What do you mean with "it follows"? A passive copper cable uses exactly the edge rates the source device sends through it. Not faster, not slower.


I said it follows because BW and Rise and fall times are related by the equation I posted.

A cable is a basically a Low Pass filter - it slows edge rates - the extent of which is determined by its BW and other properties of the cable. The rise and fall times of that 'filter' are related to its bandwidth. If you replace a low BW cable with a higher BW cable that higher BW cable will not degrade rise and fall times as much as a lower BW cable. So, on the receiving end of that higher BW cable signals will exhibit faster edge rates.


----------



## riddle

Hi, is there a way how to add HDR10+ to Lumagen?


----------



## SJHT

riddle said:


> Hi, is there a way how to add HDR10+ to Lumagen?


An old post….

New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


----------



## riddle

With the arrival of new projectors with HDR10+ support (Epson, JVC) It can be quite an interesting idea use HDR10+ metadata for ADTM.


----------



## jrp

riddle said:


> With the arrival of new projectors with HDR10+ support (Epson, JVC) It can be quite an interesting idea use HDR10+ metadata for ADTM.


We are still considering if we want to add HDR10+ to the Radiance Pro. The Radiance Pro DTM does such a good job that the scenes that have any chance of benefitting from the additional Dynamic Meta Data are few and far between. However, there are a few scenes where knowing the highest MaxCLL of the entire scene could help. The Radiance Pro DTM analyzes the first frame of a scene to set the transfer function for that scene, and so cannot know the MaxCLL of the entire scene. That is why there is a "DynPad" to allow some headroom for scenes to get much brighter.

One hesitation I have for HDR10+ is that there are not a lot of movies that provide HDR10+ dynamic Metadata. Quite a bit or work for a few movies with the Pro DTM already doing a great job. If HDR10+ becomes more popular we will certainly look at adding it to the Radiance Pro. HDR10+ has a limited number of supported MaxCLL's for scenes, but the Pro could still use the HDR10+ dynamic Metadata to help with the few scene that start very dark but then get very bright.


----------



## jrp

As Geof said the approximate relationship of signal frequency to the rise-time of the signal for that frequency is rise-time = 0.35/frequency. Since the signal frequency for HDMI 2.1 at 48 GHz is twice that of 18 GHz, it requires an edge rate that is approximately twice as fast.

My comments about not using a 48 GHz cables in a 18 GHz system are directed at active cables. The active cable is going to have a buffer that is capable of twice as fast an edge rate. And as I have said many times, transmission line theory says that it is the edge rate that matters most to determine the quality of the "signal medium." For a 48 GHz active cable this puts extra strain on the 18 GHz input design quality. Note that I am not saying a 48 GHz cable cannot work in an 18 GHz system. Instead I am saying I have known cases where a 48 GHz active cable did not work in an 18 GHz system, and that changing to an 18 GHz active cable corrected the issues. Because of this I recommend against using an active 48 GHz cables in an 18 GHz system.

This is not as important for passive 48 GHz cables. In other words it is okay to use a passive 48 GHz cable in an 18 GHz system, _if_ you make sure the cable attenuation is in the same range as an 18 GHz passive cable. The signal attenuation of a 48 GHz cable is likely less per foot of length. So, you might need a longer 48 GHz passive HDMI cable to have the optimal amount of attenuation.

Exactly how this plays out for 48 GHz active cables in real systems needs more data. For 18 GHz passive cables I am now recommending 3 meter cables as having the optimal amount of attenuation, and no less than two-meter length. What I am currently recommending for 48 GHz passive HDMI cables in an 18 GHz system is three to four meters.

Need more feedback, but the limited feedback I have is that three-meter 48 GHz cables are working well in 18 GHz systems.


----------



## G-Rex

Clark Burk said:


> I guess it’s welcome to the world of HDMI. In no other instance can I think of a case where if you get a better performing cable that it can be detrimental to performance. Yes it‘s totally possible to get better cables in other areas and not be able to see or hear an improvement but really hard to believe you can have worse performance with better cables.


FWIW, I have the other VP with very high end hdmi cables. WireWorld optical hybrid 2.1 (50’), many models of Audioquests new 48 Gbps series, as well as WW Silver Starlight 7s, (18 Gbps) no issues at all.


----------



## Sittler27

For anyone using a RP with a JVC projector, assuming one can get some higher brightness, how many nits in your calibrations should you be aiming for in order to gain the best balance between black floor and HDR brightness?
I've heard everything from 75 nits to as high as you can get.

Is it better to aim for something like 75 nits and to turn down the iris or run in a lower lamp mode in order to lower the black floor forsaking brightness?
I could get 110+ nits if I turned off the filter, ran in high lamp and opened the iris all the way.


----------



## Nima

I second the question as a Da Lite High Power screen user, I can get >200 nits with the new NZ projectors. How many nits should one target with the Lumagen DTM? I am currently at around 110 nits and think I would like more.


----------



## jrp

Sittler27 and Nima:

How much light output to target is a personal preference.

I like targeting 106 nits since this is roughly the SDR mastering monitor standard. I like watching SDR at the mastering level rather than the commercial theater standard, which is roughly 54 nits. This allows me to use one calibration for both SDR and HDR, by having the Pro output SDR2020 for both CMS0 and CMS1.

The commercial theater HDR recommendation is 130 nits.

In the Lumagen Demo Theater we have 61 nits at mid-laser on our JVC RS4500. This is lower than I would like, but since the human eye is very adaptable I find it looks great, and with the measured 9500:1 static contrast for our RS4500 we are getting an excellent black level. I should also note that I can run at high-laser and get about 100 nits. Going back and forth, the 100 nits looks better, but once I settle in at mid-laser and 61 nits, it also looks great due to the human iris adapting to the brightness level.

If you have a RS3000/RS2000, which should provide a measured static contrast of near 30000:1, and you can get 110 nits, that would provide excellent results. However, if you have a RS4500 and need to run mid-laser for noise concerns and then have, say, 70 nits, that can also provide exceptional images.

Whether to use the color filter to get closer to P3 is again a personal preference of light output versus color saturation. However, the above discussion of light output applies and I hope is helpful in you making the choice of whether to use the color filter, or not.


----------



## Nima

Thank you Jim for this detailed explanation.

What about a new RS3100 or RS4100, what if you have enough light with a High Contrast screen like the High Power? Would you target 150 to 200 bits for HDR?

TIA


----------



## YanivZX6R

Does anyone know if the Monoprice 8K SlimRun AV active cable Monoprice 8K SlimRun AV Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable 75ft - AOC 48Gbps Black - Monoprice.com can work with the Radiance Pro 4242-18G Video Processor?
i have the NZ7 on order and running new cables to it, I can't replace them later without opening the walls etc... so should I order the Lumagen or wait for the new versions if and when they come out with 48g cards?


----------



## Karl Maga

G-Rex said:


> FWIW, I have the other VP with very high end hdmi cables. WireWorld optical hybrid 2.1 (50’), many models of Audioquests new 48 Gbps series, as well as WW Silver Starlight 7s, (18 Gbps) no issues at all.


Something about your post is compelling me to go to the circus. I wonder if PT Barnum is coming to my state soon? Hmm.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> Thank you Jim for this detailed explanation.
> 
> What about a new RS3100 or RS4100, what if you have enough light with a High Contrast screen like the High Power? Would you target 150 to 200 bits for HDR?


This is again a personal preference. Here is mine:

I recommend using the color filter if you have that much light. You will have maybe 15% less light but still plenty IMO.

I am not sure of the NZ8/NZ9 equivalent in "RS" naming, but I think these are the same ones. If so, they have great contrast, and so excellent black levels at 200 nits maximum light output. I believe you would be very happy with 150 to 200 nits for HDR.

Make sure to set the optical-black and the digital-black as I have it in the Radiance Pro setup slide set.

You would then set the Radiance Pro Max Light in the 800 to 1200 range (still about 5x to 6x). I would still use my recommended scene for setting Max Light. That is _The Meg_ from 1:08:00 to about 1:09:00 trading off brightness for correct flesh tones.

If you are above 106 nits for HDR, I recommend setting SDR maximum light differently at about 106 nits, or less if you prefer.

Given the excellent contrast of the recent JVC projectors you can do this using the Radiance Pro White-level to reduce the output level while using the same projector memory as for HDR content. If you reduce the Radiance Pro White Level you should do a separate calibration for CMS0 for SDR content.

You can also use the HDR flag to select a different memory in the JVC for SDR and HDR, while having both use a Gamma 2.4. This would allow you to use the JVC's manual iris to dial back the maximum light and increase contrast ratio further. If you do this with recent JVC software you need to load a "custom Gamma table" to make it work correctly (others have posted on this and know more of what to do to load the custom Gamma table into the JVC than I do). If you do this, then two calibrations are needed. Since the Pro "outputs HDR in an SDR container" both would be to Rec 2020 Gamma 2.4 (for SDR you might choose Bt.1886, but with the excellent contrast of the JVCs, they are very close to the same thing).

=========================================== 

Here is a general comment on SDR in the 106 nits range for maximum light. Note that the following is still in the personal-preference category:

You may find the mid-tones are brighter than you would like with White Level of around 106 nits. If so you might find leaving the maximum light output for SDR around 106 nits, but _increasing_ the Gamma above 2.4, allows for a bright white, while keeping mid-tones a bit darker. You can do this by increasing the Radiance Pro CMS0 "Gamma Factor" above 1.0. For example, if the Gamma measures 2.4, and you want 2.6, then set Gamma_factor = 2.6/2.4 = 1.08. If you change the Gamma_factor, then adjust the digital-black again afterwards using the CMS0->Black Level control.

Save your changes.


----------



## DigitalAV

Karl Maga said:


> Something about your post is compelling me to go to the circus. I wonder if PT Barnum is coming to my state soon? Hmm.


If Rebecca Ferguson's there I'm in


----------



## G-Rex

Karl Maga said:


> Something about your post is compelling me to go to the circus. I wonder if PT Barnum is coming to my state soon? Hmm.


Maybe you would be better served with Ronco cables. 😉


----------



## Karl Maga

G-Rex said:


> Maybe you would be better served with Ronco cables. 😉


As long as I’m not forced to overpay for a video processor. 😉


----------



## roxiedog13

Killroy said:


> I am beginning to suspect that most (if not all) audio drops are due to the source (streaming and some some audio specs) and the player rather than the Lumagen or the AVR/Processor. Let me explain...
> 
> I was having serious audio drops on some/various DTS-MA and Atmos movies on my set up (see signature) and there was nothing I could do to remedy the situation. Slowly as apps on the Shield were updated some were improved but others got worse. Kodi and Amazon were at the top of the issues. When Kodi 19.3 came out I have pretty much not had any audio drops from Atmos or DTS-MA. Amazon was doing better then one update got worse again but the next update fixed it again (for their Atmos tracks). Another player that gives me horrible audio drops is the Zidoo Z1000 Pro on UHD titles but NOT on Blu-ray. This happens no matter where I put the LRP on the chain....even when I put the LRP with no audio going through it. Since that's not my preferred method I have kept the Zidoo out of my chain for now but keep testing each new beta with no changes.


I had a Lumagen Pro for about three years, the drops described here was exactly the same years ago, long before 8K cables were available. I explained this in detail years ago, I may have been one of the first to reveal this issue with the Lumagen. I did not have any streaming services at the time, all movies were played through my Oppo 203 or the Panasonic UB9000, my audio processor and the projector , my longest cable from Lumagen to the projector was only 15ft .
In my case it was more a incompatibility issue between the AV equipment input to the Lumagen , obviously the metadata being shared. At some point I figured out the start up sequence that worked , programmed this into my Harmony Hub with sufficient delays, only then could I count on a clean star and that worked well from that point on. I would still get the odd audio drop but that was less frequent, not a huge issue, but while performing A/B testing between projectors, it was a nightmare. The Lumagen just had to come out of the chain as every time I'd switch between these I'd have a audio or visible crash. Like I said, once a sequence was worked out, no further issues, but when switching between input devices on the fly, I'd have issues. The new 8K cables may be another issue, but not the only one as I learned many years ago.


----------



## roxiedog13

Karl Maga said:


> As long as I’m not forced to overpay for a video processor. 😉


When I purchased a Lumagen Pro, nearly five years ago, it was one of the most expensive purchases I ever made for any supporting video device, countless AVS members argued it was a crazy overpriced investment for any video processor. One notable and very vocal member referred to the Lumagen as, " an overpriced piece of garbage," to him the free Mad/VR with PC was infinitely cheaper and far superior in many ways, still uses the same . Despite all this negativity I forged ahead. At the time, I rationalized the purchase because it was a small turnkey device that was nearly plug and play, whereas a HTPC was not, and I didn't have the free time, the HTPC or the interest to tinker. I made the decision based on performance, features to price point, for my lifestyle and budget, it was worth it. No one forced me then, that decision was made based on many personal factors , in the same way that I decided to go in a different direction this time around. Using the same logic and rationalization, this time my purchase decision based on a processor with modern day architecture looking into the future, and thus far as before, it's paying off , I wouldn't expect 8K cables or 8K material to trip it up. No one is forced to buy anything, all I see are viable options, how you decide to rationalize that is personal, and I'm happy enough to have the options, cheaper as we all know , is not always better either. The Lumagen certainly was not considered cheap back in the day, in fact it was really considered a extremely high priced processor only for the elite, way outside the reach of any average enthusiast, but that was have a decade ago, now it seems, everyone needs one, even for projectors that apparently have on-board DTM solutions. 

New technology like the Lumagen was modern, back in the day, certainly considered very expensive, as always , the price we pay for purchasing Bleeding edge. Nothing has changed in this regard except, this time around, there are more options, and that part is wonderful. No person is ever forced to buy anything, that part is a simple decision making process, this time around there are other options, something many are obviously very happy about.


----------



## DigitalAV

The cost involved certainly can amplify frustration (guilty), but the insanely great support and end-of-the-day performance can't be beat. Love my Lumagen & looking forward to further exploiting its many features.


----------



## Karl Maga

roxiedog13 said:


> When I purchased a Lumagen Pro, nearly five years ago, it was one of the most expensive purchases I ever made for any supporting video device, countless AVS members argued it was a crazy overpriced investment for any video processor. One notable and very vocal member referred to the Lumagen as, " an overpriced piece of garbage," to him the free Mad/VR with PC was infinitely cheaper and far superior in many ways, still uses the same . Despite all this negativity I forged ahead. At the time, I rationalized the purchase because it was a small turnkey device that was nearly plug and play, whereas a HTPC was not, and I didn't have the free time, the HTPC or the interest to tinker. I made the decision based on performance, features to price point, for my lifestyle and budget, it was worth it. No one forced me then, that decision was made based on many personal factors , in the same way that I decided to go in a different direction this time around. Using the same logic and rationalization, this time my purchase decision based on a processor with modern day architecture looking into the future, and thus far as before, it's paying off , I wouldn't expect 8K cables or 8K material to trip it up. No one is forced to buy anything, all I see are viable options, how you decide to rationalize that is personal, and I'm happy enough to have the options, cheaper as we all know , is not always better either. The Lumagen certainly was not considered cheap back in the day, in fact it was really considered a extremely high priced processor only for the elite, way outside the reach of any average enthusiast, but that was have a decade ago, now it seems, everyone needs one, even for projectors that apparently have on-board DTM solutions.
> 
> New technology like the Lumagen was modern, back in the day, certainly considered very expensive, as always , the price we pay for purchasing Bleeding edge. Nothing has changed in this regard except, this time around, there are more options, and that part is wonderful. No person is ever forced to buy anything, that part is a simple decision making process, this time around there are other options, something many are obviously very happy about.


Reading your post, I'm not certain what you concluded about what I meant. I am currently a Lumagen Radiance Pro owner, having purchased two in the last two years. 

I looked at all options, and selected the better choice for me: Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have been thrilled with it from day 1, and I still am.


----------



## jrp

Here is an update on Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement efforts:

I talked with Patrick earlier today. He says the pipeline enhancements are coming along nicely, and that there is a clean image at 4k60 in to 4k60 out 1:1. There is more work to get the up-scale, and down-scale, cleaned up. Other work still needed involves completing some additional FPGA changes (e.g. NLS update, but this will come later), and improving synthesis timing. Timing is currently good enough to work on many systems, but not necessarily all systems.

Pat said he made the front end of the pipeline 12-bits (and higher) as we originally planned. The scaler input is still 10-bits, and will be for the first Alpha release, but the rest of the pipeline is now 12+ bits. Plans are to go back and make the scaler a full 12+ bits sometime after the first Alpha release so the entire pipeline is 12-bits and higher. NLS completion will likely be after the first public Beta release.

I believe we will be able to send the first Alpha release to those signed up for it in perhaps three weeks. Might be a bit sooner, or might be a bit later. The time between Alpha and Beta public release could be short if the initial release looks good, or it might take a few additional weeks of work before we can release to public Beta.

I will post more details when we have them.


----------



## Technology3456

jrp said:


> Here is an update on Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement efforts:
> 
> I talked with Patrick earlier today. He says the pipeline enhancements are coming along nicely, and that there is a clean image at 4k60 in to 4k60 out 1:1. There is more work to get the up-scale, and down-scale, cleaned up. Other work still needed involves completing some additional FPGA changes (e.g. NLS update, but this will come later), and improving synthesis timing. Timing is currently good enough to work on many systems, but not necessarily all systems.
> 
> Pat said he made the front end of the pipeline 12-bits (and higher) as we originally planned. The scaler input is still 10-bits, and will be for the first Alpha release, but the rest of the pipeline is now 12+ bits. Plans are to go back and make the scaler a full 12+ bits sometime after the first Alpha release so the entire pipeline is 12-bits and higher. NLS completion will likely be after the first public Beta release.
> 
> I believe we will be able to send the first Alpha release to those signed up for it in perhaps three weeks. Might be a bit sooner, or might be a bit later. The time between Alpha and Beta public release could be short if the initial release looks good, or it might take a few additional weeks of work before we can release to public Beta.
> 
> I will post more details when we have them.


Is this for the 5xxx only, or if you have a 4xxx model can you send it in to get these upgrades? Or it's just for new models bought from here on out?


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> Is this for the 5xxx only, or if you have a 4xxx model can you send it in to get these upgrades? Or it's just for new models bought from here on out?


Excellent question. Thanks for asking. I did not realize I was less than clear on this.

This will be a free update posted on our website once we get to the "Beta" release level. All Radiance Pro owners (4XXX, and 5XXX) can update to this release just like any Radiance Pro software release. This release will include the FPGA "pipeline enhancements." So, this is a "field software upgrade." No need to send the unit to us.

Although "Field Programmable Gate Arrays" (a.k.a. FPGAs) can be tedious to code for, they have the amazing advantage of being hyper-efficient for video processing. Patrick has literally reengineered the entire video _hardware_ pipeline (not from scratch of course) and this will be available in a _software update._


----------



## aguy

Amazing !! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ShaharT

jrp said:


> Here is an update on Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement efforts:
> 
> I talked with Patrick earlier today. He says the pipeline enhancements are coming along nicely, and that there is a clean image at 4k60 in to 4k60 out 1:1. There is more work to get the up-scale, and down-scale, cleaned up. Other work still needed involves completing some additional FPGA changes (e.g. NLS update, but this will come later), and improving synthesis timing. Timing is currently good enough to work on many systems, but not necessarily all systems.
> 
> Pat said he made the front end of the pipeline 12-bits (and higher) as we originally planned. The scaler input is still 10-bits, and will be for the first Alpha release, but the rest of the pipeline is now 12+ bits. Plans are to go back and make the scaler a full 12+ bits sometime after the first Alpha release so the entire pipeline is 12-bits and higher. NLS completion will likely be after the first public Beta release.
> 
> I believe we will be able to send the first Alpha release to those signed up for it in perhaps three weeks. Might be a bit sooner, or might be a bit later. The time between Alpha and Beta public release could be short if the initial release looks good, or it might take a few additional weeks of work before we can release to public Beta.
> 
> I will post more details when we have them.


Thanks for the update. What are the benefits, if any, with the pipeline increase for a regular "end-user" using the product today?


----------



## bjorg

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the update. What are the benefits, if any, with the pipeline increase for a regular "end-user" using the product today?


My guess is that with more color precision, there should be less banding visible w/o resorting to dithering.


----------



## Killroy

I've been banging my head against my desk (pretty hard BTW) trying to get the GlobalCache IR code for the 2.00:1 aspect ratio from the remote control. I am using the iTach learner and the new remote control to get the code and was able to get the correct code for the 2.20:1 button but for some reason the 2.00:1 button is not coming out right. Anyone have the code?

Also, is there one for 2.10:1? There's not button so I figure there would not be one. In the mean time I am using the up/down buttons to cycle through the ARs but I would love to have them all for a single button on my iPad remote.

Thanks!


----------



## jrp

ShaharT said:


> Thanks for the update. What are the benefits, if any, with the pipeline increase for a regular "end-user" using the product today?


Check out my previous posts. To summarize, you should see visible image improvements. This is likely subtle for 4k24, but more significant for 4k50 and 4k60.

Output dither is not really affected by the pipeline enhancements. The Output dither is a "final step" in the Radiance Pro pipeline that uses aspects of the human vision system to give us the perception of having 12-bit pixel data using only an 8-bit dithered output data format. This allows what in my testing is a way to use a 9 GHz 4k60 4:2:0 8-bit output from the Radiance Pro and not lose any image quality versus the 12-bit 4:2:2 format (for 4k60 this is 18 GHz).


----------



## jrp

Killroy said:


> I've been banging my head against my desk (pretty hard BTW) trying to get the GlobalCache IR code for the 2.00:1 aspect ratio from the remote control. I am using the iTach learner and the new remote control to get the code and was able to get the correct code for the 2.20:1 button but for some reason the 2.00:1 button is not coming out right. Anyone have the code?
> 
> Also, is there one for 2.10:1? There's not button so I figure there would not be one. In the mean time I am using the up/down buttons to cycle through the ARs but I would love to have them all for a single button on my iPad remote.


Email me at Lumagen.com support email. I can send you the exact IR code timing. The codes do not follow either of the two common IR standards since these came after we adopted our IR codes. Not sure this will help, but if so, let me know.

If you can't get the 2.00 to work as a single code, and you can instead program a macro, send the ALT key and then the 4:3 key. This works for 2.00 aspect selection.

The Radiance Pro support 4:3, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, and 2.40, source aspect The Radiance Pro does not have a 2.1 source aspect. Do you have a specific example of content that uses 2.1 (content provider, title, streaming device)?


----------



## Killroy

jrp said:


> Email me at Lumagen.com support email. I can send you the exact IR code timing. The codes do not follow either of the two common IR standards since these came after we adopted our IR codes. Not sure this will help, but if so, let me know.
> 
> If you can't get the 2.00 to work as a single code, and you can instead program a macro, send the ALT key and then the 4:3 key. This works for 2.00 aspect selection.
> 
> The Radiance Pro support 4:3, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, and 2.40, source aspect The Radiance Pro does not have a 2.1 source aspect. Do you have a specific example of content that uses 2.1 (content provider, title, streaming device)?


Email sent. Thanks.

No wonder I could not find the 2.10:1 code anywhere or even a shortcut for it. I didn't even realize it did not exist. BTW, not that important since there is only two movies that I know that have that aspect ratio on Blu-ray... Sliver (1993) which was supposed to be 2.35:1 and the other is the Japanese manga Blu-ray of Cat Sh!t One. I will just set their aspect ratio to 2.00.

Thanks again.


----------



## Killroy

Thanks to Jim for getting me the IR information I needed. Took a few trial & errors to get the proper sequence but if anyone is still using Global Cache IR then here are the two codes for the following aspect ratios.

2.20:1 - sendir,1:1,3,37764,1,1,19,93,19,93,19,202,19,93,19,93,19,93,19,202,19,202,19,93,19,202,19,93,19,93,19,422

2.00:1 - sendir,1:1,2,37764,1,1,19,93,19,93,19,202,19,93,19,93,19,93,19,202,19,202,19,93,19,93,19,202,19,93,19,422

The two codes are almost identical and more than likely you will need to change the first 1 after 37764 to a 3. That is the repeat digit so 3 works in my case.


----------



## sunnya23

Killroy said:


> Email sent. Thanks.
> 
> No wonder I could not find the 2.10:1 code anywhere or even a shortcut for it. I didn't even realize it did not exist. BTW, not that important since there is only two movies that I know that have that aspect ratio on Blu-ray... Sliver (1993) which was supposed to be 2.35:1 and the other is the Japanese manga Blu-ray of Cat Sh!t One. I will just set their aspect ratio to 2.00.
> 
> Thanks again.


Two more movies that I know of that have a 2.11:1 aspect ratio, very weird it isn't a round number, are the Netflix films The Midnight Sky and Triple Frontier. When watching these on my scope screen I have both letter and pillar boxing although the letterboxing is very minimal, very similar to the letterboxing I have when playing 1.85:1 movies in the 16:9 format. But it seems like such a rare aspect ratio as those are the only two that I have watched. I have seen the 2.00:1 aspect ratio quite a bit for Netflix series and it is incredible that Lumagen supports this aspect ratio.


----------



## Killroy

sunnya23 said:


> Two more movies that I know of that have a 2.11:1 aspect ratio, very weird it isn't a round number, are the Netflix films The Midnight Sky and Triple Frontier. When watching these on my scope screen I have both letter and pillar boxing although the letterboxing is very minimal, very similar to the letterboxing I have when playing 1.85:1 movies in the 16:9 format. But it seems like such a rare aspect ratio as those are the only two that I have watched. I have seen the 2.00:1 aspect ratio quite a bit for Netflix series and it is incredible that Lumagen supports this aspect ratio.


Totally forgot about The Midnight Sky (watched it and loved it!)... but yeah, Netflix is releasing a few movies closer to 2.10:1 than 2.00 or 2.20. I tested 2.10:1 Sliver (1993) at 2.00 and it had a bit of letterbox at the top/bottom (as well as the sides) and I also tested it at 2.20 and the letterbox was gone but of course it cropped out just a small portion of top/bottom. Not very noticeable but since I watch 1.85 with a little letterbox it did not bother me.

So I settled on the following: 1.90:1 and taller gets 16:9 with no a-lens (letterboxed) and anything 2.00:1 and wider gets the a-lens and CIH. All I have to do now is finishing my macros on my iPad remote so these new aspect ratios are completely automated with the a-lens slider. I may change it to 2.00 and taller for 16:9 at a later time but for now I am happy with the split.


----------



## chasiliff

Is there a way to turn off the RP fan when the system is shut down? Am I missing something with my setup?

Thanks!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

chasiliff said:


> Is there a way to turn off the RP fan when the system is shut down? Am I missing something with my setup?
> 
> Thanks!


The fan goes off when the unit is in standby


----------



## Scorpion66

Can the internal IR be activated if an external IR connector is pluged? Now there is no response from the internal IR, only from an external IR Extension.

thanks


----------



## jrp

Scorpion66 said:


> Can the internal IR be activated if an external IR connector is pluged? Now there is no response from the internal IR, only from an external IR Extension.


This is an either-or situation. If you plug into the back it disables the front IR sensor.

We have one IR command input on the microprocessor, and electrically merging the front and back ports together seems a not so great idea. I considered doing exactly this, but decided one at a time made sense. Note that this decision was made in 2003 and I have not seen enough reason to reconsider it.

====

I use a Xantech IR repeater to the wired IR input on the Pro. Then I use an IR emitter from our control system by the Xantech IR receiver to receive control system IR commands. The Xantech IR receiver is visible in the room and receives IR from my Lumagen remote as well.


----------



## chasiliff

Gordon Fraser said:


> The fan goes off when the unit is in standby


Mine does not. I’ll have to d/w Lumagen. Thanks.


----------



## jrp

chasiliff said:


> Is there a way to turn off the RP fan when the system is shut down? Am I missing something with my setup?
> 
> Thanks!


I talked to chasiliff and it sounds like the fan controller is stuck in an "always on" fail mode. He now plans to send it in for us to fix this at some point.

FYI for others: The fan turns off when the unit is in standby. No user setting to change this. We had one other fan controller fail, but fortunately should be an easy fix once we get it.


----------



## Killroy

jrp said:


> ....The Radiance Pro does not have a 2.1 source aspect. Do you have a specific example of content that uses 2.1 (content provider, title, streaming device)?


To add another movie that has 2.10:0 AR... Netflix's Army of Thieves (2021), the prequel to Army of the Dead (2021).


----------



## YanivZX6R

My screen is 2.35 ratio, is there a way to automate the Lumagen to always display/stretch the image to 2.35 regardless of the input ratio? for example, when a movie changes the ratio mid-flight can this be automated to stretch into 2.35 without me touching anything?
Sorry if this was answered before, I couldn't find it using search.


----------



## Kris Deering

YanivZX6R said:


> My screen is 2.35 ratio, is there a way to automate the Lumagen to always display/stretch the image to 2.35 regardless of the input ratio? for example, when a movie changes the ratio mid-flight can this be automated to stretch into 2.35 without me touching anything?
> Sorry if this was answered before, I couldn't find it using search.


Yes, in Auto aspect ratio you setup the NLS to YES.


----------



## desray2k

Guys, just a few days ago, my Radiance Pro started to exhibit some "discoloration" issue. I have had checked my entire video chain and narrowed down to my Radiance Pro. I'm using Radiance Pro 4242C+ and updated to the latest firmware. Initially, I thought it was my projector but when I did a direct connection from the player to the input of my projector, I do not see the anomaly. It only happened 2 days ago out of a sudden and really caught me by surprise. By the way, it happened to HDR content for all my sources. The only solution is to do a "power-cycle" by unpluging the power supply and plug it back. The image is restored to its pristine condition. However, it will occur randomly especially when I switch to different sources. It appears that the switching of different resolution and framerate might have caused this issue or is the HDMI output board starting to fail on me? I'm at a loss for answer and solution...anyone with similar experience can share how you resolve it?

Here's a screenshot of what I'm seeing...









Notice the yellow blotches? Anyway, I have emailed [email protected] and await a solution to my problem. Hope there is a simple fix.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Maybe try to reload the latest firmware. If doesn’t help try rolling back to prior version.


----------



## desray2k

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> Maybe try to reload the latest firmware. If doesn’t help try rolling back to prior version.


Done that as my first remedial action and I doubt it has something to do with the firmware since I have been using the latest firmware for almost a month without any issue until a couple of days ago. 

Anyway, Jim has responded to my post via the support email. It may be a thermal issue or perhaps even a specific to my model - 4242-C+. I'm waiting for Jim's next reply. Hope there is a simple fix.


----------



## *Harry*

First I would check the temperatures in the info screen; maybe your pro is running hot, caused by fan malfunction?

You can check what's happening by increasing the fan speed - if it happens much later, or doesn't happen at all, it's most likely that the heat inside the case is the reason for it. Of course, also a chip could be outside its specification / got heat sensitive, resulting in malfunction ... anyway - Jim's great support will help fix that.


----------



## desray2k

*Harry* said:


> First I would check the temperatures in the info screen; maybe your pro is running hot, caused by fan malfunction?
> 
> You can check what's happening by increasing the fan speed - if it happens much later, or doesn't happen at all, it's most likely that the heat inside the case is the reason for it. Of course, also a chip could be outside its specification / got heat sensitive, resulting in malfunction ... anyway - Jim's great support will help fix that.


Thanks Harry for the encouraging words...I have always been impressed by Lumagen's help support since day 1. Jim really knows his stuff at the back of his head. I guess he has seen almost every possible scenario in the lab.


----------



## NickTheo

Just put a brand new Lumagen 4246-18ghz into my signal chain and got it all setup. Audio is coming out of my pre pro and correct video to my GTZ-380. Any idea why my Apple TV no longer will stream Atmos no matter what? When I try and stream a HBO MAX movie with Atmos signal it reverts to PCM for some reason. Previously when the pre pro controlled the audio and video it had no trouble detecting the Atmos signal. I’ve tried rebooting everything, swapping out cables to the ones included with Lumagen, etc. any help is appreciated!


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

If you search this forum, there was a post about how to enable all audio formats. 

Also did you power cycle the Apple TV?


----------



## NickTheo

Aaron Toulmin said:


> If you search this forum, there was a post about how to enable all audio formats.
> 
> Also did you power cycle the Apple TV?


yes, cycled power on Apple TV, changed cables, changed HDMI Audio EDID to common, then back to pass through. Nothing seems to work. There’s 650 pages on this forum to scour through - any one who might have insight on this would be most appreciated.


----------



## YanivZX6R

NickTheo said:


> Just put a brand new Lumagen 4246-18ghz into my signal chain and got it all setup. Audio is coming out of my pre pro and correct video to my GTZ-380. Any idea why my Apple TV no longer will stream Atmos no matter what? When I try and stream a HBO MAX movie with Atmos signal it reverts to PCM for some reason. Previously when the pre pro controlled the audio and video it had no trouble detecting the Atmos signal. I’ve tried rebooting everything, swapping out cables to the ones included with Lumagen, etc. any help is appreciated!


Go to ATV audio format settings and make sure Change format is set to off and Dolby atmos is set to on.


----------



## NickTheo

YanivZX6R said:


> Go to ATV audio format settings and make sure Change format is set to off and Dolby atmos is set to on.


Thanks for the reply - unfortunately I also did those steps prior to posting originally. I should have said that as well. 

Atmos is on. Change format is definitely off. This is the same exact config, Apple TV wise, that worked with Atmos perfectly when the ATV was plugged directly into the pre/pro prior to the Lumagen entering the signal chain. I have tried rehandshaking the HDCP also. Nothing.


----------



## YanivZX6R

NickTheo said:


> Thanks for the reply - unfortunately I also did those steps prior to posting originally. I should have said that as well.
> 
> Atmos is on. Change format is definitely off. This is the same exact config, Apple TV wise, that worked with Atmos perfectly when the ATV was plugged directly into the pre/pro prior to the Lumagen entering the signal chain. I have tried rehandshaking the HDCP also. Nothing.


and if you take the Lumagen out of the chain everything goes back to normal?
I today added a new Lumagen to my chain same as yours and I get atmos from ATV using the audio only output HDMI to my processor.


----------



## NickTheo

YanivZX6R said:


> and if you take the Lumagen out of the chain everything goes back to normal?
> I today added a new Lumagen to my chain same as yours and I get atmos from ATV using the audio only output HDMI to my processor.


At your suggestion I reversed it back to my original setup and discovered that indeed the problem followed the signal back to the original setup. Looks like the prepro had a setting on it revert when I changed the setup from it handling the signal to the Lumagen. All fixed now. Thanks for the help!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Silentmac

I have an RP 4242-18G since a week that came with an old firmware from December 2020. After the firmware update to the latest version there was a green screen and the RP could no longer be operated, only menu 0999 was still working. Also a power cycle didn‘t help either. I uploaded the firmware again this time in bootloader mode with the same result. Uploading and flashing always took place without an error message and I followed exactly every instruction according to the Lumagen Tech tip.

Close to a heart attack, I thought the RP was broken. As a last attempt, I then reloaded the previous firmware (December 2020) using bootloader mode and the force option and thank God the RP worked again! 🙏 Since then I don't dare to do a firmware update anymore. But it can't be that I have now to stay on this old firmware forever. Anyone else a tip?


----------



## Clark Burk

Silentmac said:


> I have an RP 4242-18G since a week that came with an old firmware from December 2020. After the firmware update to the latest version there was a green screen and the RP could no longer be operated, only menu 0999 was still working. Also a power cycle didn‘t help either. I uploaded the firmware again this time in bootloader mode with the same result. Uploading and flashing always took place without an error message and I followed exactly every instruction according to the Lumagen Tech tip.
> 
> Close to a heart attack, I thought the RP was broken. As a last attempt, I then reloaded the previous firmware (December 2020) using bootloader mode and the force option and thank God the RP worked again! 🙏 Since then I don't dare to do a firmware update anymore. But it can't be that I have now to stay on this old firmware forever. Anyone else a tip?


If you search this thread for green screen you will find some past conversations about the issue. If your LRP is relatively new and under warranty I would not be afraid to try further attempts at upgrading the firmware. There have been instances of the FPGA having gone bad but that is quite rare and it’s usually just a update issue. 
Owners have had some success going back and installing a prior firmware then trying to install the most recent firmware after doing that. Sounds like you have done that and brought it to life so I’d try to reinstall the latest firmware again. 
If you are reluctant to try that then I suggest you call Jim at Lumagen and ask for his suggestion. He often drops in this thread to offer help and info. Lumagen truly has the best customer service I’ve experienced in the industry.


----------



## bobof

Silentmac said:


> I have an RP 4242-18G since a week that came with an old firmware from December 2020. After the firmware update to the latest version there was a green screen and the RP could no longer be operated, only menu 0999 was still working. Also a power cycle didn‘t help either. I uploaded the firmware again this time in bootloader mode with the same result. Uploading and flashing always took place without an error message and I followed exactly every instruction according to the Lumagen Tech tip.
> 
> Close to a heart attack, I thought the RP was broken. As a last attempt, I then reloaded the previous firmware (December 2020) using bootloader mode and the force option and thank God the RP worked again! 🙏 Since then I don't dare to do a firmware update anymore. But it can't be that I have now to stay on this old firmware forever. Anyone else a tip?


The checkerbox screen is a diagnostic function built into more recent builds of the Radiance Pro firmware, my understanding from previous comms with Lumagen is that it indicates that there has been a failure to negotiate HCDP on the output with the display device, and may be indicative of a bad / marginal HDMI cable between output and display. Previously you'd have just gotten a black screen, which is less helpful as it could be many things. In this case you can see video is passing still.

I think you only get the green check pattern if the format is 4K50 or 4k60, if at lower refresh rates you end up with a predominantly black background.

Lumagen support can give you more info and probably help you diagnose why you are seeing it in your system.


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> If you search this thread for green screen you will find some past conversations about the issue. If your LRP is relatively new and under warranty I would not be afraid to try further attempts at upgrading the firmware. There have been instances of the FPGA having gone bad but that is quite rare and it’s usually just a update issue.


That tends to be solid green if an FPGA failure is implicated. The check marks are something else (see my previous post).


----------



## Clark Burk

bobof said:


> The checkerbox screen is a diagnostic function built into more recent builds of the Radiance Pro firmware, my understanding from previous comms with Lumagen is that it indicates that there has been a failure to negotiate HCDP on the output with the display device, and may be indicative of a bad / marginal HDMI cable between output and display. Previously you'd have just gotten a black screen, which is less helpful as it could be many things. In this case you can see video is passing still.
> 
> I think you only get the green check pattern if the format is 4K50 or 4k60, if at lower refresh rates you end up with a predominantly black background.
> 
> Lumagen support can give you more info and probably help you diagnose why you are seeing it in your system.


Good to know. I didn’t even notice the checkerboard as I just saw a green screen on my iPad. When I clicked on the image to get a closer look I noticed the checkerboard pattern on the green screen. Thanks.


----------



## Kris Deering

Silentmac said:


> I have an RP 4242-18G since a week that came with an old firmware from December 2020. After the firmware update to the latest version there was a green screen and the RP could no longer be operated, only menu 0999 was still working. Also a power cycle didn‘t help either. I uploaded the firmware again this time in bootloader mode with the same result. Uploading and flashing always took place without an error message and I followed exactly every instruction according to the Lumagen Tech tip.
> 
> Close to a heart attack, I thought the RP was broken. As a last attempt, I then reloaded the previous firmware (December 2020) using bootloader mode and the force option and thank God the RP worked again! 🙏 Since then I don't dare to do a firmware update anymore. But it can't be that I have now to stay on this old firmware forever. Anyone else a tip?


That screen means you have an HDCP problem with the display/Lumagen combination.


----------



## dlinsley

Killroy said:


> Netflix is releasing a few movies closer to 2.10:1 than 2.00 or 2.20


To add another to the list, the Netflix series The Babysitters Club is also 2.10:1. We never noticed the letter boxing when we watched season 1 at the start of the pandemic, but just last week saw that season 2 was out and so we are rewatching season 1 first. Presumably season 2 is the same.

Edit: Season 2 is 2.20:1


----------



## Silentmac

bobof said:


> The checkerbox screen is a diagnostic function built into more recent builds of the Radiance Pro firmware, my understanding from previous comms with Lumagen is that it indicates that there has been a failure to negotiate HCDP on the output with the display device, and may be indicative of a bad / marginal HDMI cable between output and display. Previously you'd have just gotten a black screen, which is less helpful as it could be many things. In this case you can see video is passing still.
> 
> I think you only get the green check pattern if the format is 4K50 or 4k60, if at lower refresh rates you end up with a predominantly black background.
> 
> Lumagen support can give you more info and probably help you diagnose why you are seeing it in your system.


Interesting point, I'll check that out. Wanted to buy new HDMI cables anyway. Thanks a lot for the hint!


----------



## Silentmac

Kris Deering said:


> That screen means you have an HDCP problem with the display/Lumagen combination.


That makes me feel more confident. Thanks a lot for this.


----------



## alv

Occasionally an HDR source loads as SDR. Restarting it loads right. Any tricks to prevent this? Chain is source (AppleTV or Panasonic 4K blurry), Marantz 8802A, LRP, Sony projector. Just a few percent of the time.


----------



## bobof

alv said:


> Occasionally an HDR source loads as SDR. Restarting it loads right. Any tricks to prevent this? Chain is source (AppleTV or Panasonic 4K blurry), Marantz 8802A, LRP, Sony projector. Just a few percent of the time.


If the sources are both going to the AVR first, I wonder if that is somehow implicated. It might be an issue with the order your devices are starting up in; you'd probably want to start things up backwards from the display (display first, then LRP, then Marantz, then source).
For what it's worth I don't think I've ever seen the Lumagen mis-detect or cause sources to not output HDR, unless the EDID has specifically been limited intentionally to do that.


----------



## adrake23

jrp said:


> This is an either-or situation. If you plug into the back it disables the front IR sensor.
> 
> We have one IR command input on the microprocessor, and electrically merging the front and back ports together seems a not so great idea. I considered doing exactly this, but decided one at a time made sense. Note that this decision was made in 2003 and I have not seen enough reason to reconsider it.
> 
> ====
> 
> I use a Xantech IR repeater to the wired IR input on the Pro. Then I use an IR emitter from our control system by the Xantech IR receiver to receive control system IR commands. The Xantech IR receiver is visible in the room and receives IR from my Lumagen remote as well.


Jim,
I have a Harmony Elite Pro remote and tablet control system called Roomie Remote. I currently have my Global Cache going to my Lumagen with the wired IR in. How can I control my Lumagen using both of my control solutions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OzHDHT

adrake23 said:


> Jim,
> I have a Harmony Elite Pro remote and tablet control system called Roomie Remote. I currently have my Global Cache going to my Lumagen with the wired IR in. How can I control my Lumagen using both of my control solutions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've just got a Harmony Elite and hub for my HT. That handles the Lumagen that resides inside the equipment space no problem at all. I personally have no experience with Roomie.


----------



## bobof

adrake23 said:


> Jim,
> I have a Harmony Elite Pro remote and tablet control system called Roomie Remote. I currently have my Global Cache going to my Lumagen with the wired IR in. How can I control my Lumagen using both of my control solutions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Either use a blaster on the output of the Global Cache, and do it all via IR light to the front IR sensor, or work out how to merge two wired IR systems together and do it all wired to the rear (a device such as Keene IR Signal Combiner Four IR Input to One IR Output - KEENE home(tech)wares might help - though I've not tried it). You won't be able to do one via IR light and one via wired IR.

I'd personally go IR light to the front, as if you don't use IR it means you lose the ability to walk up to the unit and use the factory remote in a pinch when you may be trying to debug things.


----------



## Scorpion66

I am using this IR repeater (3 receiver inputs, 6 emitter outs)https://www.amazon.de/gp/aw/d/B08S799TTR?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title with additional IR receiver for the lumagen https://www.amazon.de/gp/aw/d/B08SJWTVVJ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title&th=1 Lumagen is connected by wire to the IR repeater. It works good.


----------



## jrp

There are some machinations on the forums about changing aspect ratios during the movie for “iMAX” cuts on an anamorphic screen. A few people have asked about instant-aspect changes within movies. This makes no sense if one cares about directors intent. I have explained to those who have asked but now feel a post on the topic is warranted.

=================

For the past 20 years our motto at Lumagen has been “See what the director intended.™”

For whatever reason there are now “iMAX” versions for a few movies that are intended to be watched on a 16:9 iMAX screen. These movies have anamorphic portions and 16:9 portions. The 16:9 portions are typically shot on higher quality film than the anamorphic portions. So, the 16:9 portion is a much larger image and is a higher quality image in an iMAX theatre. I personally hate these aspect ratio transitions within a movie since they pull me right out of the movie. However, for an iMAX theater I yield to the director’s intent.

For anamorphic-screen based commercial theaters, and anamorphic-screen based home cinemas, the landscape (no pun intended) changes. We considered having a fast mode to change aspects immediately when the content changed aspect in a movie. We very quickly concluded that it would be dumb to do so, and would show a complete lack of understanding of the director’s intent.

If you have a 16:9 TV then the iMAX version works like they would in an iMAX theater, except the 16:9 portion does _not_ have better image quality. However, for an anamorphic screen, we need to follow the director’s intent to have the best viewing experience. If you went to a anamorphic-screen commercial theater and watched Interstellar, you saw the entire movie in anamorphic mode. Had the director wanted to show the 16:9 portion as smaller 16:9 images on the anamorphic screen, that is what would have been shown in the theater. It was not, and this is a clear indication of the director’s intent.

iMAX movies that change aspect ratio have two “director’s intent” cases:

- iMAX on a 16:9 screen, with aspect changes from anamorphic it 16:9. The 16:9 portions are intended to be larger than the anamorphic portions, and they are. No auto-aspect change is needed for this case. You may want to disable auto-aspect, especially if you have masking. In other words, if you want to see the iMAX cut you should watch on a fixed 16:9 screen.

- For commercial, and home, cinemas with an anamorphic screen, the entire movie is intended to be viewed in anamorphic mode. The iMAX 16:9 portions are shot “protected for anamorphic viewing” and shown as anamorphic as intended. If you went to a normal commercial theater with an anamorphic screen and saw Interstellar, all content was shown as a single anamorphic aspect ratio. So, for the case of an anamorphic screen no auto-aspect is needed, and you should disable auto-aspect at the beginning of the movie (enable “sticky override” in the Auto Aspect menu). We actually added a button on the new remote control for exactly this case.

There is a video recently posted that completely misrepresents the Radiance Pro, and ignores that Lumagen’s recommended practice is to disable auto aspect for these iMAX movies. Further, the video ignores the director’s intent. If the video had shown the Radiance Pro with auto-aspect disabled as instructed by Lumagen, the Radiance Pro version would certainly have been the preferred version. This is because it would not have any of the jarring aspect ratio changes and would be shown as an anamorphic movie as the director intended for an anamorphic screen.

What adds insult to injury is the video’s producer suggests Non-Linear-Stretch (NLS) can then be used on the 16:9 portions to fill an anamorphic screen. If there is something that would likely be considered sacrilege by movie directors, it would be using NLS on their 16:9 movie content to stretch it to 2.35 or 2.40. I personally do not like NLS in any case, but even those who do should refrain from using it to view 16:9 movie content on a 2.40 screen, saving it for TV shows and news programs. Leaving the entire movie as anamorphic for an anamorphic screen is the rational decision.

====================

One final note:

We do have looking at changing aspects faster for auto-aspect on our list (again the start and end of the movie, the only places it should happen). The Radiance Pro intentionally adds a “hysteresis” delay to insure against false aspect change detections. It is certainly possible for us to have a variable to allow the viewer to change this time delay. We have been considering this for a future release since auto-aspect was introduced. It is just that it has not been a priority. After the pipeline enhancements are complete, if enough people want us to speed up the auto-aspect for the beginning and end of content, we might raise it higher on the priority list.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> - For commercial, and home, cinemas with an anamorphic screen, the entire movie is intended to be viewed in anamorphic mode. The iMAX 16:9 portions are shot “protected for anamorphic viewing” and shown as anamorphic as intended. If you went to a normal commercial theater with an anamorphic screen and saw Interstellar, all content was shown as a single anamorphic aspect ratio. So, for the case of an anamorphic screen no auto-aspect is needed, and you should disable auto-aspect at the beginning of the movie (enable “sticky override” in the Auto Aspect menu).


Annoyingly, they do seem to re-frame some of the scenes vertically when making the anamorphic cinema releases, so it is worth in this case trying to seek out sources of the content without the variable aspect ratio. It came to my attention recently that Kaleidescape is one such device that has the versions without VAR, AppleTV maybe another for many titles. Though it isn't going to help with titles in the new distribution landscape that never see a cinema and go straight to streaming.
These are some examples taken from Tenet, which show that the "IMAX" release on disc isn't scope safe. (actually 2.2 for Tenet). Well, it's safe in that your eyeballs won't explode and you don't see anything you shouldn't, but the vertical centre crop isn't optimal for that title.
The screenshots showing where the crop was actually taken from are here:








Tenet is 2.2 CIH Safe


Someone left the Koolaid out and Bud helped himself as usual. Atleast you got the post count up on this forum today.




www.avsforum.com





Note, that doesn't excuse applying NLS to them, which seems like a bit of an abomination...!

It does however I think counter the narrative that the vertical centre crop is what they intended you to watch at home. I don't think anyone making the 16:9 UHD release really cares two jots about folk with 'scope screens, otherwise we wouldn't see so many issues with burnt-in subs in the wrong place, etc. Watching the centre vertical crop is probably best described as making the best of what you've got with a 'scope screen given the limitation of the content.


----------



## steelman1991

bobof said:


> Annoyingly, they do seem to re-frame some of the scenes vertically when making the anamorphic cinema releases, so it is worth in this case trying to seek out sources of the content without the variable aspect ratio. It came to my attention recently that Kaleidescape is one such device that has the versions without VAR, AppleTV maybe another for many titles. Though it isn't going to help with titles in the new distribution landscape that never see a cinema and go straight to streaming.
> These are some examples taken from Tenet, which show that the "IMAX" release on disc isn't scope safe. (actually 2.2 for Tenet). Well, it's safe in that your eyeballs won't explode and you don't see anything you shouldn't, but the vertical centre crop isn't optimal for that title.
> The screenshots showing where the crop was actually taken from are here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tenet is 2.2 CIH Safe
> 
> 
> Someone left the Koolaid out and Bud helped himself as usual. Atleast you got the post count up on this forum today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note, that doesn't excuse applying NLS to them, which seems like a bit of an abomination...!
> 
> It does however I think counter the narrative that the vertical centre crop is what they intended you to watch at home. I don't think anyone making the 16:9 UHD release really cares two jots about folk with 'scope screens, otherwise we wouldn't see so many issues with burnt-in subs in the wrong place, etc. Watching the centre vertical crop is probably best described as making the best of what you've got with a 'scope screen given the limitation of the content.


Bobof - not all titles with expanding AR's are constant AR on Kaleidescape. I can't remember off hand which ones are and aren't, but some of them do VAR.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> There is a video recently posted that completely misrepresents the Radiance Pro, and ignores that Lumagen’s recommended practice is to disable auto aspect for these iMAX movies


Have you contacted the producers of the video or commented on the youtube video, in order to set the record straight about the Lumagen? I hope so.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> These movies have anamorphic portions and 16:9 portions. The 16:9 portions are typically shot on higher quality film than the anamorphic portions. So, the 16:9 portion is a much larger image and is a higher quality image in an iMAX theatre.





jrp said:


> If you have a 16:9 TV then the iMAX version works like they would in an iMAX theater, except the 16:9 portion* does not have better image quality*.


For a movie like Dark Knight or Tenet, even at home, on my 16:9 screen, I can see the uptick in detail during the IMAX/16:9 sequences (as a result of the higher quality film used during those sequences).


----------



## Killroy

fatherom said:


> I can see the uptick in detail during the IMAX/16:9 sequences (as a result of the higher quality film used during those sequences).


I think the better optics used on 70mm cameras also have a HUGE effect in the higher quality look.


----------



## bobof

steelman1991 said:


> Bobof - not all titles with expanding AR's are constant AR on Kaleidescape. I can't remember off hand which ones are and aren't, but some of them do VAR.


Thanks, I didn't know that, it was presented in the other thread that they usually were. I think for some of the titles I saw it changed depending on whether you were looking at the HD or HDR version, for instance (I don't have a K, I was browsing the web store). I guess there would be a bit of legwork involved then if you wanted to track down all the non-VAR versions of the movies to get the optimal as the director intended framing on a scope screen.

In my own room the dimensions were such that I ended up with a top / bottom electric mask screen, so just I tend to watch these titles open mask


----------



## DigitalAV

Love my Lumagen -- but c'mon, it's a pretty clever bit of tech that deserves some props. Agreed the video ignores director's intent to show off an A/B comparison/competition, but it's a nice feature to have available nonetheless imho. Each product has pluses & minuses that don't detract from each other in my view.


----------



## scrowe

adrake23 said:


> Jim,
> I have a Harmony Elite Pro remote and tablet control system called Roomie Remote. I currently have my Global Cache going to my Lumagen with the wired IR in. How can I control my Lumagen using both of my control solutions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I purchased Roomie Remote when they had the lifetime offer, as a future replacement for my Harmony elite. I also have the GC100 that allows both IR and Serial. I’ve poked it lightly to check that both IR and Serial sort of work with Lumagen, but it’s not plug-and-play and the defaults for the RR Lumagen config appeared to be sending the wrong commands. So you might need to invest in one of the GC devices that allows both IR via blaster and IR to Serial as well to the Lumagen. That would give best if both worlds.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

I would look forward to enhancing the Auto AR feature after the Pipeline enhancement is finished. I do find myself waiting for Auto AR to kick in. Sometimes it's a couple of seconds, sometimes it takes around a minute from streamed sources. Thanks in advance.


----------



## DigitalAV

Putting my vote in for PiP/PoP (especially PoP) to be high on the post-pipeline list


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> For a movie like Dark Knight or Tenet, even at home, on my 16:9 screen, I can see the uptick in detail during the IMAX/16:9 sequences (as a result of the higher quality film used during those sequences).





Killroy said:


> I think the better optics used on 70mm cameras also have a HUGE effect in the higher quality look.


I have not compared directly, and accept your comments on this. I am a bit surprised given how compression levels the playing field, so to speak.

However, given this, the "better quality" is in the anamorphic version as well. So you still get the advantage of the better film stock in those portions of the movie watching anamorphic on an anamorphic screen as the director intended.


----------



## Killroy

jrp said:


> I have not compared directly, and accept your comments on this. I am a bit surprised given how compression levels the playing field, so to speak.
> 
> However, given this, the "better quality" is in the anamorphic version as well. So you still get the advantage of the better film stock in those portions of the movie.


I don't think I would call it an uptick in detail but a different look that stands out over the non-IMAX portions. The much larger film/sensor area in combination with the huge lenses, to cover that extra area, gives the image a very unique look. Same principal applies to photography when shooting with 35mm vs 120 vs 4x5 & 8x10 film. The larger the film/sensor area the depth of field changes drastically, as well as the look of the bokeh, even at the same aperture.


----------



## DigitalAV

The 70mm-sourced IMAX sequences do have a different "look" to them in the form of a bit more grain and a slight flicker that gives the impression -- to me at least -- of higher quality film/texture when coupled with their exceptional detail. Really only with Nolan's films, not so much with Disney's (prolly due to types of cameras used)


----------



## Killroy

DigitalAV said:


> .... Really only with Nolan's films, not so much with Disney's


Is Disney actually shooting with large format IMAX cameras/sensors? I know Nolan is. The reason I ask this, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 was shot in 6k Red Dragon which is just a 35mm sensor. Both their scope and IMAX-ish scenes looked identical.


----------



## A7mad78

steelman1991 said:


> Bobof - not all titles with expanding AR's are constant AR on Kaleidescape. I can't remember off hand which ones are and aren't, but some of them do VAR.


Dune now had a fix aspect ratio 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DigitalAV

Killroy said:


> Is Disney actually shooting with large format IMAX cameras/sensors? I know Nolan is. The reason I ask this, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 was shot in 6k Red Dragon which is just a 35mm sensor. Both their scope and IMAX-ish scenes looked identical.


Totally, and that makes sense as to why Nolan vs Disney IMAX scenes look different. Also is hilarious to me that James Gunn used his IMAX scenes to do some "spill over into the letterbox area" gags (meant for 3D) -- let's see waht video processors do with _that_!


----------



## Craig Peer

Killroy said:


> I think the better optics used on 70mm cameras also have a HUGE effect in the higher quality look.


Yes - the parts shot on IMAX cameras. Same uptick whether watched on my 16:9 screen or cropped and watched on my scope screen.


----------



## ShadeRF

I definitely wouldn't mind faster aspect changes. Something like the Expanse comes to mind where in the last two seasons it's constantly jumping between ratios and it hangs a bit too long sometimes. Probably doesn't help it sometimes has trouble detecting changes because some of the scenes are so dark.


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## fatjulio

I'd like the faster aspect detection too. The Expanse is a good example.


----------



## bjorg

I don't mind the detection speed. However, it's a bit jarring when it shrinks the image. It looks like it first shifts the image and then changes the size. It would be great if it were more seamless.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I don't mind the detection speed. However, it's a bit jarring when it changes the image scale. It looks like it first shifts the image and then changes the size. It would be great if it were more seamless.


I agree. The detection speed would be pretty far down my list compared to this. And in any case, I couldn't see much point in having faster changes that aren't also clean.


----------



## Karl Maga

I’m all for faster AR detection, but will count on Lumagen to mitigate undesirable consequences.


----------



## Hawks07

DigitalAV said:


> The 70mm-sourced IMAX sequences do have a different "look" to them in the form of a bit more grain and a slight flicker that gives the impression -- to me at least -- of higher quality film/texture when coupled with their exceptional detail. Really only with Nolan's films, not so much with Disney's (prolly due to types of cameras used)


I think the opening and closing scenes of WW84 had this look too. I think that was 65mm camera. Looked really nice.


----------



## jrp

*Radiance Pro 5244 Introduction:*

We are pleased to introduce a new member to the Radiance Pro lineup, the Radiance Pro 5244.

We have sold the few pilot-run units we built, but will have more in mid-January assuming no additional supply side delays.

The Radiance Pro 5244 has six 18 GHz inputs, one 18 GHz output, and one audio output. It is a subset of the Radiance Pro 5348 design, and has the same performance. 

One difference is for the audio output (Output 1). Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz output board's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. In addition, the 5244 "audio" output can be programmed to "audio + video" at up to 9 GHz.

The Radiance Pro 5244 comes in the same size 1U case as other rack-mountable Radiance Pro models.

=================== 

Note: The Radiance Pro 5348 is selling at a much higher rate than expected and we are almost out of stock. We should have more (barring additional supply-side delays) in the first-half of January.


----------



## sunnya23

fatjulio said:


> I'd like the faster aspect detection too. The Expanse is a good example.


Count me as another one for faster aspect detection.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> One difference is for the audio output (Output 1). Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz output board's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. In addition, the 5244 "audio" output can be programmed to "audio + video" at up to 9 GHz.


Two questions about this:

1) Is it possible for a Radiance 4xxx model to output 1080p60 from its audio output?

2) I know that with the "blank video" from an audio-only hdmi output (from something like an Oppo, or in this case, the Lumagen), the resolution of the blank video is related to how much bandwidth is allocated for the video/audio...could that possibly the reason for the audio drop outs some experience (like me)? If a 4xxx lumagen is outputting 720p60 video coupled with Atmos (high-bandwidth) audio, is it possible it's tickling the edge of the bandwidth limitations, since the video is "low-res" compared to the audio?

I'm recalling this from the Oppo 203 manual....I realize this quote says 720p should be enough, but this quote also doesn't mention Atmos, which is the only type of audio track I ever get dropouts with:

_If you use HDMI to connect audio to an HDMI A/V receiver or audio processor, it is important that you choose 720p or higher HDMI output resolution when playing high resolution audio content (DVD-Audio, SACD, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio). According to the HDMI specification, *the bandwidth available for audio is proportional to the total bandwidth used by video*. At 480p/576p resolution, the HDMI specification can only support 2 channels of audio with high sample rate (up to 192kHz), or 8 channels of audio with standard sample rate (up to 48kHz). If you play high resolution audio content at the 480p/576p resolution, you may get reduced audio resolution, incomplete audio channels, or even no audio/video output at all. Choosing a higher output resolution such as 720p or above allows enough bandwidth for all high sample rate audio channels._


----------



## Silentmac

jrp said:


> *Radiance Pro 5244 Introduction:*
> 
> We are pleased to introduce a new member to the Radiance Pro lineup, the Radiance Pro 5244.
> 
> We have sold the few pilot-run units we built, but will have more in mid-January assuming no additional supply side delays.
> 
> The Radiance Pro 5244 has six 18 GHz inputs, one 18 GHz output, and one audio output. It is a subset of the Radiance Pro 5348 design, and has the same performance.
> 
> One difference is for the audio output (Output 1). Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz output board's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. In addition, the 5244 "audio" output can be programmed to "audio + video" at up to 9 GHz.
> 
> The Radiance Pro 5244 comes in the same size 1U case as other rack-mountable Radiance Pro models.
> 
> ===================
> 
> Note: The Radiance Pro 5348 is selling at a much higher rate than expected and we are almost out of stock. We should have more (barring additional supply-side delays) in the first-half of January.


Oh that‘s great, I just bought a 4242 last week. What will be the price range of the 5244?


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> looking at changing aspects faster for auto-aspect on our list (again the start and end of the movie, the only places it should happen).


How do you even determine this though (start/end)? I often watch a bunch of TV shows and, less frequently, movies back to back in one session - not to mention those moments mid-film where I pull up the menu and need auto-aspect to scale the image so I can use the menu correctly - the Lumagen has no idea of where I am, or what I'm doing, in terms of material being watched and so should handle any auto-aspect changes as required regardless of where I am in the timeline. Trying to second guess what a user is doing is a recipe for frustration and complaints???



> The Radiance Pro intentionally adds a “hysteresis” delay to insure against false aspect change detections. It is certainly possible for us to have a variable to allow the viewer to change this time delay. We have been considering this for a future release since auto-aspect was introduced. It is just that it has not been a priority. After the pipeline enhancements are complete, if enough people want us to speed up the auto-aspect for the beginning and end of content, we might raise it higher on the priority list.


Yes, please. As well as reporting ALL aspect ratios please for us auto-maskers


----------



## jrp

Silentmac said:


> Oh that‘s great, I just bought a 4242 last week. What will be the price range of the 5244?


The 5244 is a significant uptick in price versus 4242 units at $8495 USA retail.


----------



## bowlingbeeg

I'm another one who would like faster AR detection and also a more seamless transition if possible.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks:

just enjoying HDR and DV on my 1000 nit 85” Sony TV…Can the Lumagen play any role with the TV, in a meaningful way? 

I’m still trying to decide whether to go NZ8, NZ9 or a 100” TV as my room is not very large…Samsung just launched their 98” 1600 nit tv and it retails for $20k CDN…Not bad compared to 12-18 months ago…

What role could the Lumagen play with a high nit TV? Thanks folks


----------



## Clark Burk

asharma said:


> Hi folks:
> 
> just enjoying HDR and DV on my 1000 nit 85” Sony TV…Can the Lumagen play any role with the TV, in a meaningful way?
> 
> I’m still trying to decide whether to go NZ8, NZ9 or a 100” TV as my room is not very large…Samsung just launched their 98” 1600 nit tv and it retails for $20k CDN…Not bad compared to 12-18 months ago…
> 
> What role could the Lumagen play with a high nit TV? Thanks folks


I guess it depends on the what nit level the movie was graded on. If it was 4k or 10k it may help a little but I don’t know if it would be very noticeable. The Lumagen may offer a little better upscaling of blu-rays but again if the Sony is using the XR processor it’s not going to be a big difference.
I still think projector or OLED In a light controlled home theater room. If you go OLED see what the 97” versions supposedly coming out in 2022 are going for. I’m skeptical they will be under 15k but you never know.


----------



## asharma

Clark Burk said:


> I guess it depends on the what nit level the movie was graded on. If it was 4k or 10k it may help a little but I don’t know if it would be very noticeable. The Lumagen may offer a little better upscaling of blu-rays but again if the Sony is using the XR processor it’s not going to be a big difference.


Thanks Clark, sorry I forgot to mention I watch 99% HDR…Agreed on the OLED…trying to make due with the Sony until an OLED larger than 83” comes along…


----------



## Clark Burk

Lol, yeah I forgot about Dolby Vision.


----------



## MDesigns

asharma said:


> Hi folks:
> 
> just enjoying HDR and DV on my 1000 nit 85” Sony TV…Can the Lumagen play any role with the TV, in a meaningful way?
> 
> I’m still trying to decide whether to go NZ8, NZ9 or a 100” TV as my room is not very large…Samsung just launched their 98” 1600 nit tv and it retails for $20k CDN…Not bad compared to 12-18 months ago…
> 
> What role could the Lumagen play with a high nit TV? Thanks folks


I also have an 85" Sony in living room and love it. For the price it is an awesome unit and if it was a little bit bigger I would forget projection and all the related problems. Sonys FALD imo looks really good, so I have no need for the OLED. If 98" is enough, I would say go for it. Also drop the Lumagen, you will just lose DV with it.


----------



## asharma

MDesigns said:


> I also have an 85" Sony in living room and love it. For the price it is an awesome unit and if it was a little bit bigger I would forget projection and all the related problems. Sonys FALD imo looks really good, so I have no need for the OLED. If 98" is enough, I would say go for it. Also drop the Lumagen, you will just lose DV with it.


Here’s the Sony with my 2.35 masking panels in my velvet batcave…Sorry picture does not do it justice…


----------



## Ilushka85

I am about to buy the lumagen but saw the Madvr video and jrp comments. I have a scope screen and a projector with zoom memory.
How would the lumagen work today in this scenario with what they showed for source video ?

how will lumagen work if projector zoomed to 2.4 and I open Netflix ui which is 16:9 to choose a movie?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

You can set the lumagen to adjust for that and it will scale the 16:9 content to fit a 2.4 screen when your zoomed out on your projector. 

Essentially eliminating the need to keep adjusting the lens position. 

That “MadVR” video is very biased towards MadVR and it’s obvious that’s all they want to sell.


----------



## Ilushka85

Aaron Toulmin said:


> You can set the lumagen to adjust for that and it will scale the 16:9 content to fit a 2.4 screen when your zoomed out on your projector.
> 
> Essentially eliminating the need to keep adjusting the lens position.
> 
> That “MadVR” video is very biased towards MadVR and it’s obvious that’s all they want to sell.


I understand just wish someone would post a more proper example how said content should properly look / be displayed based on the comments and proper config of lumagen.


----------



## jbrinegar

Ilushka85 said:


> I am about to buy the lumagen but saw the Madvr video and jrp comments. I have a scope screen and a projector with zoom memory.
> How would the lumagen work today in this scenario with what they showed for source video ?
> 
> how will lumagen work if projector zoomed to 2.4 and I open Netflix ui which is 16:9 to choose a movie?


Lumagen has auto aspect control and will adjust accordingly. Its not instantaneous like envy is in the mad vr envy video

EDIT: the lumagen auto aspect control isnt meant to be instantaneous for VAR movies, but more for adjusting to the correct ratio at the beginning of the film


----------



## Ilushka85

jbrinegar said:


> Lumagen has auto aspect control and will adjust accordingly. Its not instantaneous like envy is in the mad vr envy video
> 
> EDIT: the lumagen auto aspect control isnt meant to be instantaneous for VAR movies, but more for adjusting to the correct ratio at the beginning of the film



so what is the expected way that these var movies should be seen ?

I have a 2.4 screen with projector zoomed to it... what happens when it switches the image to 16x9 for this scene. Wouldn't it go outside the bounds of screen?


----------



## Silentmac

I couldn't find anything on the subject after searching. Since I have the RP 4242 in the chain, the menu fonts of the sources are so pixelated, especially with the AppleTV4K. Any idea what that could be?


----------



## jbrinegar

Ilushka85 said:


> so what is the expected way that these var movies should be seen ?
> 
> I have a 2.4 screen with projector zoomed to it... what happens when it switches the image to 16x9 for this scene. Wouldn't it go outside the bounds of screen?


I usually leave my auto aspect control off for the movies that are "scope safe" and watch the whole thing in scope. You could let auto aspect do its thing, but it always takes a couple of seconds to work.

I admit Id like the instant switching like the envy has for those VAR movies that arent scope safe, even if it does go against the directors intention


----------



## Ilushka85

jbrinegar said:


> I usually leave my auto aspect control off for the movies that are "scope safe" and watch the whole thing in scope. You could let auto aspect do its thing, but it always takes a couple of seconds to work.
> 
> I admit Id like the instant switching like the envy has for those VAR movies that arent scope safe, even if it does go against the directors intention



But if they are scope safe.. and even if not scope safe how do you keep it from projecting above or below screen boundaries for those scenes?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

This can be set on the lumagen. There is documentation on the website.

You can set it so it doesn’t spill over by copping the image. 



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf


----------



## aguy

Ilushka85 said:


> But if they are scope safe.. and even if not scope safe how do you keep it from projecting above or below screen boundaries for those scenes?


As mentioned the lumagen can crop. 

Many projectors also have blanking option which you can adjust to stop “black” over projection above and below. My Sony projector has that option and I use that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clark Burk

My beef is with film studios such as Disney that sell their 4k physical media with less features than what they offer to their streaming customers. If I stream I get the full IMAX ratio. If I buy the disc I get the CinemaScope ratio with the top and bottom cut off. Oh wait….they will have the IMAX version for sale later in physical disc so we can buy it again.


----------



## Ilushka85

Clark Burk said:


> My beef is with film studios such as Disney that sell their 4k physical media with less features than what they offer to their streaming customers. If I stream I get the full IMAX ratio. If I buy the disc I get the CinemaScope ratio with the top and bottom cut off. Oh wait….they will have the IMAX version for sale later in physical disc so we can buy it again.



Why buy media? Kaleidescape


----------



## aguy

Clark Burk said:


> My beef is with film studios such as Disney that sell their 4k physical media with less features than what they offer to their streaming customers. If I stream I get the full IMAX ratio. If I buy the disc I get the CinemaScope ratio with the top and bottom cut off. Oh wait….they will have the IMAX version for sale later in physical disc so we can buy it again.


I can see your point. Ideally they should sell both discs in the box. Or use seamless branching t offer both versions on the disc. 

Personally I would always choose the scope version as that looks much better on my 2.4 screen. I watching a true VAR movie on my screen I set the masking panels to 16:9 so the screen is smaller and then have auto aspect off and set the lumagen to 16:9. So the scope portions of the movie will have blacks bars and the image therefore smaller. For my setup that is much less immersive than a full scope movie and the masking panels fully open. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clark Burk

Well you’re buying media too. You’re just getting it delivered in a different way. I’d rather have the physical disc than risk the company that feeds the media going belly up.


----------



## Clark Burk

aguy said:


> I can see your point. Ideally they should sell both discs in the box. Or use seamless branching t offer both versions on the disc.
> 
> Personally I would always choose the scope version as that looks much better on my 2.4 screen. I watching a true VAR movie on my screen I set the masking panels to 16:9 so the screen is smaller and then have auto aspect off and set the lumagen to 16:9. So the scope portions of the movie will have blacks bars and the image therefore smaller. For my setup that is much less immersive than a full scope movie and the masking panels fully open.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would usually agree with that but if you see the IMAX version you will see how much of the movie you are missing. It’s not subtle.


----------



## aguy

Clark Burk said:


> I would usually agree with that but if you see the IMAX version you will see how much of the movie you are missing. It’s not subtle.


I realise it’s not subtle. But the smaller image on screen for me is even worse. 

That’s why they should package both versions in the blu ray box. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aaron Toulmin

Yeah I wish they just drop this IMAX format. Scope all the way.


----------



## Clark Burk

aguy said:


> I realise it’s not subtle. But the smaller image on screen for me is even worse.
> 
> That’s why they should package both versions in the blu ray box.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see your perspective. IMAX definitely favors those with 16:9 screens. For those that have watched the IMAX version using NLS with a 2.35:1 screen is it better or worse?


----------



## aguy

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Yeah I wish they just drop this IMAX format. Scope all the way.


Even worse is 4x3 eg Snyder justice league. End up using about 1/3 of me screen space. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aguy

Clark Burk said:


> I see your perspective. IMAX definitely favors those with 16:9 screens. For those that have watched the IMAX version using NLS is it better or worse?


Yep. If I had 16:9 screen I would choose the Mac version 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hawks07

desray2k said:


> Guys, just a few days ago, my Radiance Pro started to exhibit some "discoloration" issue. I have had checked my entire video chain and narrowed down to my Radiance Pro. I'm using Radiance Pro 4242C+ and updated to the latest firmware. Initially, I thought it was my projector but when I did a direct connection from the player to the input of my projector, I do not see the anomaly. It only happened 2 days ago out of a sudden and really caught me by surprise. By the way, it happened to HDR content for all my sources. The only solution is to do a "power-cycle" by unpluging the power supply and plug it back. The image is restored to its pristine condition. However, it will occur randomly especially when I switch to different sources. It appears that the switching of different resolution and framerate might have caused this issue or is the HDMI output board starting to fail on me? I'm at a loss for answer and solution...anyone with similar experience can share how you resolve it?
> 
> Here's a screenshot of what I'm seeing...
> View attachment 3204192
> 
> 
> Notice the yellow blotches? Anyway, I have emailed [email protected] and await a solution to my problem. Hope there is a simple fix.


Did you ever get a fix for this?


----------



## SJHT

Anyone considering a smaller screen, might want to consider 16:9 with top masking if your room/setup allows. When you lower the masking your screen is just as wide, but is framed according. With a dark theater, can’t really tell the difference. Mine lowers to cover 2.0, 2.2, 2.4…. With a Lumagen this works fantastic. For larger screen, really not a good option. I might be in the minority…. SJ
Top masking down…


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> Anyone considering a smaller screen, might want to consider 16:9 with top masking if your room/setup allows. When you lower the masking your screen is just as wide, but is framed according. With a dark theater, can’t really tell the difference. Mine lowers to cover 2.0, 2.2, 2.4…. With a Lumagen this works fantastic. For larger screen, really not a good option. I might be in the minority…. SJ
> Top masking down…


Why would you need masking on an OLED/MicroLED screen? The letterboxed area is already perfectly black.


----------



## Silentmac

Silentmac said:


> I couldn't find anything on the subject after searching. Since I have the RP 4242 in the chain, the menu fonts of the sources are so pixelated, especially with the AppleTV4K. Any idea what that could be?


Nobody here who also has these pixelated fonts with the Lumagen? Looks like anti-aliasing is turned off under Windows.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Silentmac said:


> Nobody here who also has these pixelated fonts with the Lumagen? Looks like anti-aliasing is turned off under Windows.


A little bit more detail about your setup and images would help


----------



## Mark_H

jbrinegar said:


> EDIT: the lumagen auto aspect control isnt meant to be instantaneous for VAR movies, but more for adjusting to the correct ratio at the beginning of the film


This is, of course, just Lumagen's narrative for the weaknesses in their current implementation. It's meaningless to suggest "start/end" in a continuous video stream - no such thing exists. Trying to prescribe usage is a non-starter. Something either works, or it doesn't. And auto aspect already works, most of the time, but could be much improved.

EDIT: And having just watched the MadVR auto-aspect demo on YouTube. WOW!


----------



## Silentmac

Aaron Toulmin said:


> A little bit more detail about your setup and images would help


Sorry and thanks for asking. ATV4K -> RP 4242-18G -> Sony VW790

Please have a look on the Atmos logo, then you see what I mean with pixelated fonts.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Silentmac said:


> Sorry and thanks for asking. ATV4K -> RP 4242-18G -> Sony VW790
> 
> Please have a look on the Atmos logo, then you see what I mean with pixelated fonts.


Can you press the middle button on the lumagen remote and share the settings.


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## Aaron Toulmin

Should look something like this


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## MOberhardt

Ilushka85 said:


> Why buy media? Kaleidescape


Spoken by someone who doesn't realize there is just one country in the world you can use this....


----------



## bobof

Silentmac said:


> Sorry and thanks for asking. ATV4K -> RP 4242-18G -> Sony VW790
> 
> Please have a look on the Atmos logo, then you see what I mean with pixelated fonts.


Try setting the AppleTV UI to 24p.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

bobof said:


> Try setting the AppleTV UI to 24p.


Taking a stab at his problem I’d say it’s outputting a 4K input at 1080p or lower. Most likely not setup right.


----------



## fatherom

Silentmac said:


> Sorry and thanks for asking. ATV4K -> RP 4242-18G -> Sony VW790
> 
> Please have a look on the Atmos logo, then you see what I mean with pixelated fonts.


What are your sharpness and darbee settings? (Left arrow and right arrow to bring up those menus)


----------



## SJHT

bjorg said:


> Why would you need masking on an OLED/MicroLED screen? The letterboxed area is already perfectly black.


Agree and I’m pretty sure that will be my next setup…. SJ


----------



## Silentmac

Aaron Toulmin said:


> View attachment 3206889
> 
> Should look something like this


I don't have a photo at the hand right now, but it looks exactly like this, except the serial number. ;-)


----------



## Silentmac

bobof said:


> Try setting the AppleTV UI to 24p.


That was also my first thought and I tried already, but no difference. Could it be the HDMI cables? Even if it is the same cables that display the fonts correctly without Lumagen.


----------



## fatherom

Silentmac said:


> That was also my first thought and I tried already, but no difference. Could it be the HDMI cables? Even if it is the same cables that display the fonts correctly without Lumagen.


Did you see my response to you earlier about Sharpness/Darbee?


----------



## Silentmac

fatherom said:


> Did you see my response to you earlier about Sharpness/Darbee?


No I didn't. Sorry, and thanks for reminded me. That's a good hint. I'm not right now in the home theater, but as I know, I increased the sharpness from default 2 to 4. I'll try later to go back to 2.The darbee default settings I didn't change.


----------



## Silentmac

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Taking a stab at his problem I’d say it’s outputting a 4K input at 1080p or lower. Most likely not setup right.


Nope, input- and output settings are correct.

Problem found, it's a combination of frame rate UI and sharpness, which influence each other. With ATV UI 50p and activated Sharpness (H/V: 4) the fonts are pixelated. If I switch off the sharpness, the fonts look significantly less pixelated. If I also go down with the frame rate from 50p to 24p on the ATV UI, then the fonts look normal. If I switch the sharpness on again at 24p ATV UI, the fonts are slightly worse, but acceptable. ATV UI 24p plus sharpness on is a good compromise.

The question arises, where is the bottleneck in terms of bandwidth in the HDMI chain? Can't the cables or the Lumagen reach the full 18Gbps?


----------



## fatherom

Silentmac said:


> Nope, input- and output settings are correct.
> 
> Problem found, it's a combination of frame rate UI and sharpness, which influence each other. With ATV UI 50p and activated Sharpness (H/V: 4) the fonts are pixelated. If I switch off the sharpness, the fonts look significantly less pixelated. If I also go down with the frame rate from 50p to 24p on the ATV UI, then the fonts look normal. If I switch the sharpness on again at 24p ATV UI, the fonts are slightly worse, but acceptable. ATV UI 24p plus sharpness on is a good compromise.
> 
> The question arises, where is the bottleneck in terms of bandwidth in the HDMI chain? Can't the cables or the Lumagen reach the full 18Gbps?


There's no bottleneck in terms of bandwidth...not sure how you're coming up with that notion at all.

You're conflating a lot of things here, but I would suggest you also response to your post in the Video Processors thread where you were criticizing the Lumagen with respect to pixelated fonts. In my opinion, this is solely a factor of the sharpness level. Why not go back to a sharpness level of 2 (the default) - you didn't mention trying that at all.


----------



## DigitalAV

fatherom said:


> There's no bottleneck in terms of bandwidth...not sure how you're coming up with that notion at all.
> 
> You're conflating a lot of things here, but I would suggest you also response to your post in the Video Processors thread where you were criticizing the Lumagen with respect to pixelated fonts. In my opinion, this is solely a factor of the sharpness level. Why not go back to a sharpness level of 2 (the default) - you didn't mention trying that at all.


Perhaps he should also try Normal intensity instead of High in addition to a lower value. Indeed, sounds like some education is in order -- too much sharpness, no matter how good the algorithm, producing unwanted artifacts is like video processing 101


----------



## Craig Peer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Yeah I wish they just drop this IMAX format. Scope all the way.


With an anamorphic lens and the sticky aspect ratio button - it can be scope all the way.


----------



## Silentmac

fatherom said:


> There's no bottleneck in terms of bandwidth...not sure how you're coming up with that notion at all.
> 
> You're conflating a lot of things here, but I would suggest you also response to your post in the Video Processors thread where you were criticizing the Lumagen with respect to pixelated fonts. In my opinion, this is solely a factor of the sharpness level. Why not go back to a sharpness level of 2 (the default) - you didn't mention trying that at all.


Thanks for the clarification regarding the bandwidth. My assumption about a possibly limited bandwidth was based on the fact that even after a factory reset the ATV4K UI fonts were still pixelated at [email protected] But even there, the sharpness function ist with level 2 active. As soon as the sharpness function is completely deactivated, then the fonts look normal again at 4K50Hz UI. So it is due to the sharpness function and not, as assumed, a possible bandwidth problem.

So even with the default sharpness value 2, the fonts are still pixelated at 4K50Hz UI, a little less than with value 4. If the frame rate is reduced from 50 to 24Hz and the sharpness level 2 is activated, the fonts then fit again. As a side effect the ATV UI then reacts more slowly at 4K24Hz, but the fonts are normal again and a good compromise for me.

I am very happy that you two were able to help me solve the problem. Because now I'm completely happy with the Lumagen, because the image quality was already phenomenal and the best I've seen on the Sony VW790 so far. And I had already used the madVR-PC version before and actually did not expect such an increase.


----------



## Silentmac

DigitalAV said:


> Perhaps he should also try Normal intensity instead of High in addition to a lower value. Indeed, sounds like some education is in order -- too much sharpness, no matter how good the algorithm, producing unwanted artifacts is like video processing 101


Thanks for your help too. Please see also my other answer (#13,688) for additional clarification. 
Switching between high and normal intensity had no effect on the fonts, regardless of the sharpness level.


----------



## fatherom

@Silentmac generally a bandwidth issue would result in hdmi handshake issues, picture loss, sparklies, etc...it would not affect image quality in any way. You basically either get an image or you don't.


----------



## Kris Deering

Silentmac said:


> Nobody here who also has these pixelated fonts with the Lumagen? Looks like anti-aliasing is turned off under Windows.


This is probably because the menu is 4K60p. This will not give good results currently with desktops or graphics. After the pipeline update, all will be fine. This is one of the main drivers of it, 4K60 performance.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> This is, of course, just Lumagen's narrative for the weaknesses in their current implementation. It's meaningless to suggest "start/end" in a continuous video stream - no such thing exists. Trying to prescribe usage is a non-starter. Something either works, or it doesn't. And auto aspect already works, most of the time, but could be much improved.
> 
> EDIT: And having just watched the MadVR auto-aspect demo on YouTube. WOW!


The issue with that video is it shows a single usage case where you would WANT a fast aspect switch (I guess, I don't see why anyone would want to do aspect changes on a scope screen for that movie in particular, but that is another debate I guess). But with ultra fast detection comes the issues of ANYTHING tripping it up. MadVR has a lot more frames buffered (which is why their lag is so extreme), so it does give them an advantage there.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> The issue with that video is it shows a single usage case where you would WANT a fast aspect switch (I guess, I don't see why anyone would want to do aspect changes on a scope screen for that movie in particular, but that is another debate I guess).


Why would anyone anyone not want a fast/instant aspect switch, whether it just in the beginning or interspersed?



Kris Deering said:


> But with ultra fast detection comes the issues of ANYTHING tripping it up. MadVR has a lot more frames buffered (which is why their lag is so extreme), so it does give them an advantage there.


For a self-proclaimed non-dealer in hyperbole, you sure are tossing "ANYTHING" out there 
cavalierly. Elaborate what exactly can trip either product up and why?

Also why the comment on the Envy's lag being "so extreme?" Is that bad for something somehow? GUI? Gaming? Does it affect movies? There's certainly no lag on aspect changes. Say what you mean. 

Sounds like you're taking the competition of the Lumagen Radiance Pro versus the madVR Envy personally -- might want to move this to the "versus" thread.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> This is probably because the menu is 4K60p. This will not give good results currently with desktops or graphics. After the pipeline update, all will be fine. This is one of the main drivers of it, 4K60 performance.


I use my PC to run Flight Simulator via Lumagen's 18 Ghz 4k60-422 output, and there are no "pixelated" fonts even with the tiny text. Not understanding what you're saying here & how exactly the 4k60 post-pipeline visual improvements specifically address it.


----------



## SJHT

DigitalAV said:


> Why would anyone anyone not want a fast/instant aspect switch, whether it just in the beginning or interspersed?
> 
> 
> 
> For a self-proclaimed non-dealer in hyperbole, you sure are tossing "ANYTHING" out there
> cavalierly. Elaborate what exactly can trip either product up and why?
> 
> Also why the comment on the Envy's lag being "so extreme?" Is that bad for something somehow? GUI? Gaming? Does it affect movies? There's certainly no lag on aspect changes. Say what you mean.
> 
> Sounds like you're taking the competition of the Lumagen Radiance Pro versus the madVR Envy personally -- might want to move this to the "versus" thread.


I’m no expert, but there is a basic architectural difference between the 2 products which Kris is pointing out. The Envy buffers the video to do it’s magic. This allows the faster AR changes. So if that’s important to folks, it might be a plus. Given the small amount of movies and delivery platforms where this matters, maybe less. Same goes for the Lumagen. Example for me is that I use it for gaming and the Envy buffering makes it pretty much impractical. This all maybe good info for the other thread. SJ


----------



## DigitalAV

SJHT said:


> I’m no expert, but there is a basic architectural difference between the 2 products which Kris is pointing out. The Envy buffers the video to do it’s magic. This allows the faster AR changes. So if that’s important to folks, it might be a plus. Given the small amount of movies and delivery platforms where this matters, maybe less. Same goes for the Lumagen. Example for me is that I use it for gaming and the Envy buffering makes it pretty much impractical. This all maybe good info for the other thread. SJ


Yep, I turn any post-processing off & game mode on for gaming. Surprised the Envy wouldn't have the same or even just a pass-through -- indeed, a discussion for the other thread


----------



## bobof

DigitalAV said:


> I use my PC to run Flight Simulator via Lumagen's 18 Ghz 4k60-422 output, and there are no "pixelated" fonts even with the tiny text. Not understanding what you're saying here & how exactly the 4k60 post-pipeline visual improvements specifically address it.


If you haven't noticed it, then don't go looking for it!  But there is a difference between what you see on screen at 50/60p and 24p output with certain pixel patterns with the current pipleine, hence the comments from Jim about the pipeline improvements offering a particular 50/60p benefit.



DigitalAV said:


> Why would anyone anyone not want a fast/instant aspect switch, whether it just in the beginning or interspersed?


There are a lot of different uses for auto aspect. I'm not using it to zoom the image, instead I'm using it to drive mechanical masks.

One example where fast / spurious detections in content are annoying is such a system when you have a control system hooked up to the aspect detection, and something trivial would kick them off, for instance skipping through chapters or a quick replay. The Oppo MKV chapter indicator in the bottom left for instance is on screen for just long enough to trigger opening the masks, though that's a minor annoyance. My own preference in those scenarios would be for the video to stay framed in the mask - I can still see the progress indicator well enough when it is projected onto the masks.

Of course it may be possible to address such things in different ways. There is already a feature in the Radiance that allows you to de-activate detection for a period, which can be used to kill detection while you interact with the player, however it's quite tricky to set up. Or a control system could add additional delay to mask changes, checking that no other change has come in in the intervening time.

And you could apply a bit more logic to the detection to try and discern more between such overlays (player and subtitles) and content, but that probably needs to be configurable. As an example, my top and bottom masks are independently configurable, so it might be nice to be able to just move the bottom mask, for instance, to the size of the subtitles area, if I knew there were subtitles active.

I think though it is a pretty wide topic because of the different ways it is used, which means not all the answers are as obvious as they are made out to be with a a simple comparison in one scene and use-case (though to be fair, fixed scope screen is perhaps one of the most common use cases for AA).


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> MadVR ... does give them an advantage there.


This is the critical point. MadVR has a major advantage on a point of functionality that is important to _me_, and perhaps others. Lumagen now has competition for their customers. Auto-aspect (both speed, and limited reporting of ratios) is by far the weakest part of my experience with the Lumagen and is something I've pressed Jim on in the past on a number of occasions. MadVR has now demonstrated exactly what I've been asking for for the past few years, meaning there's now a potential solution for me to explore. I've been with Lumagen for many models now, and I don't doubt for a second that Jim and Pat could, if they wanted to, implement a solution that matches, or even betters, the MadVR auto-aspect system. Perhaps where my past arguments have failed, the potential for loss of customers to competition will convince them.


----------



## StephenBishop

DigitalAV said:


> Surprised the Envy wouldn't have the same or even just a pass-through


The Envy has a passthrough.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> This is the critical point. MadVR has a major advantage on a point of functionality that is important to _me_, and perhaps others. Lumagen now has competition for their customers. Auto-aspect (both speed, and limited reporting of ratios) is by far the weakest part of my experience with the Lumagen and is something I've pressed Jim on in the past on a number of occasions. MadVR has now demonstrated exactly what I've been asking for for the past few years, meaning there's now a potential solution for me to explore. I've been with Lumagen for many models now, and I don't doubt for a second that Jim and Pat could, if they wanted to, implement a solution that matches, or even betters, the MadVR auto-aspect system. Perhaps where my past arguments have failed, the potential for loss of customers to competition will convince them.


It's only a few years ago Lumagen AA was almost non-functional for me - there were so many bit sof content that would break it, and I saw a very marked improvement as I reported some of the issues and others it seems also started to do the same. So I'm sure it could get better still, as it's gone from unusable to being solid for me today. I'd lobby for very careful consideration of all the possible use cases if it does receive an update, as not all of us use it in the same way.

I did press the guys in that video in the comments on the robustness of the Envy detection, and they did say they'd seen a misdetection in something on the Envy, and they're obviously trying to sell it, so I'd definitely be trying to see it in action for an extended period to see how exactly how well it behaves. But not taking away from it, it outwardly looks like it's a good implementation (if robust). 

AA for me is actually in daily use the one feature it is really really hard to do without a VP of some sort - calibration, tone mapping, scaling, image processing all otherwise exist in some form or other in displays or sources, but AA really doesn't have any way of being done outside of a dedicated VP, so I would be a strong advocate of it getting some more attention.


----------



## Karl Maga

DigitalAV said:


> *Sounds like you're taking the competition* ... *personally* -- might want to move this to the "versus" thread.


I look for emotional and vehement verbiage to detect this, especially if it's repetitive. I'm not seeing that from _Kris_.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> This is the critical point. MadVR has a major advantage on a point of functionality that is important to _me_, and perhaps others. Lumagen now has competition for their customers. Auto-aspect (both speed, and limited reporting of ratios) is by far the weakest part of my experience with the Lumagen and is something I've pressed Jim on in the past on a number of occasions. MadVR has now demonstrated exactly what I've been asking for for the past few years, meaning there's now a potential solution for me to explore. I've been with Lumagen for many models now, and I don't doubt for a second that Jim and Pat could, if they wanted to, implement a solution that matches, or even betters, the MadVR auto-aspect system. Perhaps where my past arguments have failed, the potential for loss of customers to competition will convince them.


Interesting feedback. I use AA all the time (I have a scope screen and DCR lens) and I haven't found AA to be an issue at all. Typical detection and change for probably 98% of the content I watch is within 3-4 seconds at most. Only exception I've had is when there is a lot of black and the Lumagen isn't seeing the framing. Is this different from your daily experience? I have had some extremely rare exceptions to this, but to say they are rare is an understatement and I honestly can't remember the last time it has happened. 

Also, can you please clarify "limiting reporting of ratios"? Are you saying there are aspects that you are not seeing support for? I know someone brought up 2.1 as one earlier (and mentioned a couple titles), but I haven't heard of any others. And even with that aspect using a 2.0 or 2.2 would probably be more than acceptable.


----------



## Technology3456

Mark_H said:


> This is the critical point. MadVR has a major advantage on a point of functionality that is important to _me_, and perhaps others. Lumagen now has competition for their customers. Auto-aspect (both speed, and limited reporting of ratios) is by far the weakest part of my experience with the Lumagen and is something I've pressed Jim on in the past on a number of occasions. MadVR has now demonstrated exactly what I've been asking for for the past few years, meaning there's now a potential solution for me to explore. I've been with Lumagen for many models now, and I don't doubt for a second that Jim and Pat could, if they wanted to, implement a solution that matches, or even betters, the MadVR auto-aspect system. Perhaps where my past arguments have failed, the potential for loss of customers to competition will convince them.


It seems like Envy has either added or announced a fair # of features recently. Lumagen has made huge improvements also, like adding DTM, and many others, such as the the recent firmware. The question is what are the most wanted improvements at this pt? Is variable aspect ratios for a handful of movies at the top of the list? I'd personally like to see high quality frame interpolation added, from 24 fps to 60fps (but without 3:2 pulldown), with 0 skipped frames, the same way the Envy is planning to, and maybe digital convergence correction for 3-chip projectors that do not have it, and maybe some other things like warping the way the Envy has. Basically everything the Envy has or is planning to do, it would be great if the Lumagen could add it too, at the same or higher quality. 

And I'm sure Envy owners would feel the same about the Lumagen, but as someone with a Lumagen not an Envy, I speak from that perspective. It would be great if this competition led to both products not allowing the other to deliver anything without them adding it also, because then the big winners are the users. But with that said, I dont know the technical details. It may be there are processing differences that prevent one from doing what the other can, but _if possible _it would be great for owners if they both tried to outdo each other on everything. If that happens, the question is what additions should come first? And should the YT video dictate that? If they had spotlighted FI in that video, or warping, instead of aspect ratio speed, would everyone be talking about Lumagen needing to add those now instead? I think we should pretend that video does not exist, and start from a blank slate when it comes to the question of what improvements do people want to see added the most. Also, I think both are great products as is.


----------



## Karl Maga

For over a year, Radiance Pro discussions happened here absent trolling from Envy fans, and comparative talk happened in the Video Processor thread. In that time, I seriously doubt any Radiance Pro trolling happened in the Envy thread.

Lately, a few Envy fans have felt the need to come here to make veiled (or not) jabs. This breaks what has been a de facto agreement to avoid parading in each other's neighborhoods, and to use the Video Processor thread as the place for (clears his throat) "civil discussions".

There is a fine line between discussing comparative elements in the context of desired Radiance Pro enhancements, and boorish trolling. This thread is best served when that line is fastidiously honored.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Also, can you please clarify "limiting reporting of ratios"? Are you saying there are aspects that you are not seeing support for? I know someone brought up 2.1 as one earlier (and mentioned a couple titles), but I haven't heard of any others. And even with that aspect using a 2.0 or 2.2 would probably be more than acceptable.


2.55 is another (or whatever it is that Lalaland is). I settled on a compromise with Jim / Patrick of it at least getting detected as 2.4, so my masks would move into a more or less acceptable place... Before that, it wouldn't detect at all I recall.

Edit; yes; 2.55:1 . I see there are some great movies in there, and Lalaland...  (kidding, I really enjoyed it).

La La Land (2016) Motion Picture | 2D | 2K Project | Color | 2.55:1 | 128 Minutes. ...
Lust for Life (1956) ...
The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) ...
Four Kinds of Love (2014) ...
The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing (1955) ...
There's No Business Like Show Business (1954) ...
Ben-Hur (1959) ...
The King and I (1956)


----------



## DigitalAV

bobof said:


> If you haven't noticed it, then don't go looking for it!


Amen to this (and thanks for the detailed explanation, great info)!


----------



## DigitalAV

Karl Maga said:


> I look for emotional and vehement verbiage to detect this, especially if it's repetitive. I'm not seeing that from _Kris_.


In my view, he started his post by basically saying you're dumb if you even want this feature. Then, he back-handedly admitted the other product had the advantage while still sowing doubts about detection and lag without backing up his claims. Posts like that muddy this thread and are better served in the comparison thread imho


----------



## Karl Maga

StephenBishop said:


> The Envy has a passthrough.





DigitalAV said:


> Yep, I turn any post-processing off & game mode on for gaming. Surprised the Envy wouldn't have the same or even just a pass-through -- indeed, a discussion for the other thread


Are signals that are "passed through" still subjected to the 150+ms input lag, or does the pass-through eliminate that? 150ms is a lifetime in gaming.


----------



## bjorg

Karl Maga said:


> Are signals that are "passed through" still subjected to the 150+ms input lag, or does the pass-through eliminate that? 150ms is a lifetime in gaming.


Here's a better place to ask that question: Official madVR Envy Video Processor Owners Thread


----------



## Technology3456

Karl Maga said:


> For over a year, Radiance Pro discussions happened here absent trolling from Envy fans, and comparative talk happened in the Video Processor thread. In that time, I seriously doubt any Radiance Pro trolling happened in the Envy thread.
> 
> Lately, a few Envy fans have felt the need to come here to make veiled (or not) jabs. This breaks what has been a de facto agreement to avoid parading in each other's neighborhoods, and to use the Video Processor thread as the place for (clears his throat) "civil discussions".
> 
> There is a fine line between discussing comparative elements in the context of desired Radiance Pro enhancements, and boorish trolling. This thread is best served when that line is fastidiously honored.


Can you be specific what posts you're referring to? That way if specific things were said that were wrong, they can be corrected with specifics back. Painting with a broad brush risks creating a chilling effect that could scare people, including Lumagen owners, from posting legitimate opinions and ideas. I scanned over the last 2 pages in the thread and it doesn't jump out without being specified what you are referring to. The one person making negative comments about Lumagen seemed to admit he had it set up wrong, and change his opinion. But as I said I just scanned the last two pages except for the few most recent posts I read before posting.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> Also, can you please clarify "limiting reporting of ratios"? Are you saying there are aspects that you are not seeing support for? I know someone brought up 2.1 as one earlier (and mentioned a couple titles), but I haven't heard of any others. And even with that aspect using a 2.0 or 2.2 would probably be more than acceptable.


Yes, there are many aspect ratios the Lumagen doesn't report, just one example Ben Hur at 2.51(?):1. The other big one is 1.66:1 which many films use.

Please recognise that there are many people who use their systems differently to you and what is acceptable to you, may not be to them.


----------



## Karl Maga

Technology3456 said:


> Can you be specific what posts you're referring to? That way if specific things were said that were wrong, they can be corrected with specifics back. Painting with a broad brush risks creating a chilling effect that could scare people, including Lumagen owners, from posting legitimate opinions and ideas. I scanned over the last 2 pages in the thread and it doesn't jump out without being specified what you are referring to. The one person making negative comments about Lumagen seemed to admit he had it set up wrong, and change his opinion. But as I said I just scanned the last two pages except for the few most recent posts I read before posting.


There were a couple of fanboys here recently, their names are all over the threads (and You Tube) that are frequented by the He-Man Lumagen Haters Club.

However, my third comment (about the fine line) is just an observance of the tenor of comments most recently and the propensity to make it an A vs. B conversation. One can effectively make a point about desired functional improvements without repeatedly referencing another product. Not that this is in and of itself unacceptable, who am I to say anyways, but I'm just observing a level of contentiousness that is not typically present in this thread.


----------



## Karl Maga

bjorg said:


> Here's a better place to ask that question: Official madVR Envy Video Processor Owners Thread


The entire topic belongs there. Lots of bleed over recently.


----------



## wjchan

Technology3456 said:


> It seems like Envy has either added or announced a fair # of features recently. Lumagen has made huge improvements also, like adding DTM, and many others, such as the the recent firmware. The question is what are the most wanted improvements at this pt?











j/k


----------



## Killroy

Karl Maga said:


> There were a couple of fanboys here recently, their names are all over the threads (and You Tube) that are frequented by the He-Man Lumagen Haters Club.
> 
> However, my third comment (about the fine line) is just an observance of the tenor of comments most recently and the propensity to make it an A vs. B conversation. One can effectively make a point about desired functional improvements without repeatedly referencing another product. Not that this is in and of itself unacceptable, who am I to say anyways, but I'm just observing a level of contentiousness that is not typically present in this thread.


My skin is still a little red from the flames when after 10+ years of cheering for Team A, I switched to Team B. It was right about the time @woofer did the same thing. No matter how many times I said that I was a loyal Team A user but Team B had made substantial changes, that pretty much could not be overlooked, I just had to change. I keep testing Team A and I still have not seen anything to change my decision.


----------



## Geof

All I know is I come here to read about the Radiance Pro and have to wade thru pages of unrelated topics.



Karl Maga said:


> The entire topic belongs there. Lots of bleed over recently.


----------



## thrang

Killroy said:


> My skin is still a little red from the flames when after 10+ years of cheering for Team A, I switched to Team B. It was right about the time @woofer did the same thing. No matter how many times I said that I was a loyal Team A user but Team B had made substantial changes, that pretty much could not be overlooked, I just had to change. I keep testing Team A and I still have not seen anything to change my decision.


We're talking about AV equipment here right? Nothing that involves surgical procedures...?


----------



## Killroy

thrang said:


> We're talking about AV equipment here right? Nothing that involves surgical procedures...?


You ask some people around here, AV equipment is far more important than surgical procedures or even religion.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Yes, there are many aspect ratios the Lumagen doesn't report, just one example Ben Hur at 2.51(?):1. The other big one is 1.66:1 which many films use.
> 
> Please recognise that there are many people who use their systems differently to you and what is acceptable to you, may not be to them.


I was not inferring that its “my way or the highway” sort of speak. That is why I asked specifically for what aspects. 

Are you saying that films with a 1.66 or 2.5 aspect ratio are not shown in the proper aspect? Or that the Lumagen doesn’t report that aspect to a masking system?


----------



## Technology3456

wjchan said:


> View attachment 3207450
> 
> j/k


I mostly stopped posting about completed purchases about six months ago because people react in different ways to it. And that was very early on in the project. I did post.. one part of my setup so far in my response before, I guess you didn't see. I admit it would be more fun to be able to talk about gear though. It would have been a big laugh to respond with pictures of my room here, so it's definitely taking some self control lol, but I'm honestly not sure if it's better to talk about it or not. Just lately I haven't been. However, I would have no problem telling you a few details.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I was not inferring that its “my way or the highway” sort of speak. That is why I asked specifically for what aspects.
> 
> Are you saying that films with a 1.66 or 2.5 aspect ratio are not shown in the proper aspect? Or that the Lumagen doesn’t report that aspect to a masking system?


For me, one of the gripes with the "unsupported" ARs is that you can't do anything with them specifically. So in the case of 2.55 - here is a little example specific to my system admittedly. I have a "cheap" (>£5k <£10k) mask screen that can only do ratios 2.4 - 1.78 - the masks have limited travel. Intially 2.55 wasn't detected at all, so I had to manually set the masks. But even with it being detected now as 2.4, I would have enjoyed having the choice to set 2.55 content to zoom very slightly to fill the height of my screen masked to 2.4, but because of the rigid ratios setup, the only option remaining is to use the zoom function each time to zoom it a little bit. Which works, but it is a bit inelegant and clunky, when you like to try and have the system set up so everything works "properly" as automatically as possible. And even if the screen didn't have that limitation, I wouldn't have been able to get it to move the masks to 2.55 as it isn't a separate ratio/

I guess at least if the 2.55 were detected and reported, even without the memory space to set it up in the Radiance, you could still do something. Eg I could switch to 2.4 and zoom automatically via my basic control system.

Don't get me wrong, we're well into 1st world problems. But these are 1st world products, too


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> For me, one of the gripes with the "unsupported" ARs is that you can't do anything with them specifically. So in the case of 2.55 - here is a little example specific to my system admittedly. I have a "cheap" (>£5k <£10k) mask screen that can only do ratios 2.4 - 1.78 - the masks have limited travel. Intially 2.55 wasn't detected at all, so I had to manually set the masks. But even with it being detected now as 2.4, I would have enjoyed having the choice to set 2.55 content to zoom very slightly to fill the height of my screen masked to 2.4, but because of the rigid ratios setup, the only option remaining is to use the zoom function each time to zoom it a little bit. Which works, but it is a bit inelegant and clunky, when you like to try and have the system set up so everything works "properly" as automatically as possible. And even if the screen didn't have that limitation, I wouldn't have been able to get it to move the masks to 2.55 as it isn't a separate ratio/
> 
> I guess at least if the 2.55 were detected and reported, even without the memory space to set it up in the Radiance, you could still do something. Eg I could switch to 2.4 and zoom automatically via my basic control system.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, we're well into 1st world problems. But these are 1st world products, too


Good input there. I'm sure Jim will look at this but you may send to Lumagen support for future builds. I know they are 100% working on pipeline right now, but after that is done I know they are going to revisit AR.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Good input there. I'm sure Jim will look at this but you may send to Lumagen support for future builds. I know they are 100% working on pipeline right now, but after that is done I know they are going to revisit AR.


I will talk with Jim about it once they're thinking about it again. Though as I say, for me I find AA basically meets my needs for the most part - some of that is because my "el cheapo" (!) mask screen has some limitations that are not dissimilar to the Lumagen (limited travel, only 6 presets, etc). @Mark_H is probably slightly more aggrieved as from his sig I can see he has the "big boy" "proper" version of my screen with 4 way masks and I think controls which are more versatile.

-

As an aside, if you are a 2.4 CIH enthusiast, what's actually the "right" thing to do with a 2.55 movie - watch it in 2.55 with bars, or zoom it with left/right cropped? Or >shudder< a little NLS?! (joking!). 
I guess in an ideal world you'd actually source a screen with 4 way masking that was wider than your optimum 2.4:1 screen size, so you could present it wider still than 2.4


----------



## aguy

bobof said:


> I will talk with Jim about it once they're thinking about it again. Though as I say, for me I find AA basically meets my needs for the most part - some of that is because my "el cheapo" (!) mask screen has some limitations that are not dissimilar to the Lumagen (limited travel, only 6 presets, etc). @Mark_H is probably slightly more aggrieved as from his sig I can see he has the "big boy" "proper" version of my screen with 4 way masks and I think controls which are more versatile.
> 
> -
> 
> As an aside, if you are a 2.4 CIH enthusiast, what's actually the "right" thing to do with a 2.55 movie - watch it in 2.55 with bars, or zoom it with left/right cropped? Or >shudder< a little NLS?! (joking!).
> I guess in an ideal world you'd actually source a screen with 4 way masking that was wider than your optimum 2.4:1 screen size, so you could present it wider still than 2.4


Good question. I don’t have any movies wider than 2.4. I have a 2.4 screen with masking panels that can open to any ratio between 1.33 and 2.4 by sending three bytes to the screen over rs232 ( 133 to 240)

Personally for a 2.55 movie I would open everything to 2.4 and watch it with black bars at the top and bottom. That would mean setting the lumagen to input aspect ratio of 2.4 as well. 

As far as the auto aspect goes I too would favour some tweaks in both speed and the way ratios are reporting. Eg can any ratio be reported even if it one of the pre defined ratios. Maybe both. So the lumagen may detect for example a movie is 2.15 ( some movies aren’t always exactly what they are supposed to be). Then it could report the exact ratio as 2.15 and the closest common ratio as 2.2. The automation system could choose what it wants to use based on the use case. 

Personally I prefer more control over aspect ratios. I watch movies usually from Kodi so I have stored in my library metadata for every single movie about its aspect ratio. I use that data to set my masking panels and set the lumagen zoom etc. it’s quicker and more seamless than using AA 

However I have to use the AA on the lumagen for movies on other sources ( eg streaming ). I also have override button on my remote that cycles through common ratios to set the masks and the picture if lumagen isn’t correct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Oliver Klohs

bobof said:


> 2.55 is another (or whatever it is that Lalaland is). I settled on a compromise with Jim / Patrick of it at least getting detected as 2.4, so my masks would move into a more or less acceptable place... Before that, it wouldn't detect at all I recall.
> 
> Edit; yes; 2.55:1 . I see there are some great movies in there, and Lalaland...  (kidding, I really enjoyed it).
> 
> La La Land (2016) Motion Picture | 2D | 2K Project | Color | 2.55:1 | 128 Minutes. ...
> Lust for Life (1956) ...
> The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) ...
> Four Kinds of Love (2014) ...
> The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing (1955) ...
> There's No Business Like Show Business (1954) ...
> Ben-Hur (1959) ...
> The King and I (1956)


That's not right to say that Ben-Hur (1959) is only 2.55:1 , it is 2.76:1 - get your classics right 

A few other notables in 2.76:1:

Mutiny on the Bounty
Khartoum
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World

And there is indeed a really big number of movies in 2.55:1, others that come to mind:

The Man from Laramie
Carmen Jones
Bigger Than Life
Bad Day at Black Rock
Rebel Without a Cause
East of Eden
Sleeping Beauty


----------



## bobof

Oliver Klohs said:


> That's not right to say that Ben-Hur (1959) is only 2.55:1 , it is 2.76:1 - get your classics right


I was guilty of trusting Google...


----------



## Oliver Klohs

bobof said:


> I was guilty of trusting Google...


That'll teach you 

Would you have enough range in your masking to mask down to 2.76:1 if you did it manually?
It seems that masking to between 1.78 and something like 2.4 usually isn't an issue but titles that are wider or more narrow often are.


----------



## desray2k

Silentmac said:


> Sorry and thanks for asking. ATV4K -> RP 4242-18G -> Sony VW790
> 
> Please have a look on the Atmos logo, then you see what I mean with pixelated fonts.


pixelated font aside, what caught my attention is the very apparent panel mis-alignment for your red panel. A simple fix is to go to the panel alignment setting and fix it...you will be surprised that it may fix the "pixelated" font as well.


----------



## desray2k

Hawks07 said:


> Did you ever get a fix for this?


Not yet but Jim will be sending a replacement board for me. I am super impressed by his end-user support. The guy never sleeps! It is really hard to find a manufacturer with such responsive end-user support these days.


----------



## SJHT

Karl Maga said:


> There were a couple of fanboys here recently, their names are all over the threads (and You Tube) that are frequented by the He-Man Lumagen Haters Club.
> 
> However, my third comment (about the fine line) is just an observance of the tenor of comments most recently and the propensity to make it an A vs. B conversation. One can effectively make a point about desired functional improvements without repeatedly referencing another product. Not that this is in and of itself unacceptable, who am I to say anyways, but I'm just observing a level of contentiousness that is not typically present in this thread.


Yeah, some of them come here, throw a few grenades and then quickly disappear!


----------



## bobof

Oliver Klohs said:


> That'll teach you
> 
> Would you have enough range in your masking to mask down to 2.76:1 if you did it manually?
> It seems that masking to between 1.78 and something like 2.4 usually isn't an issue but titles that are wider or more narrow often are.


I don't think so. My screen has 2 limitations; firstly it only supports 6 positions (though I have a spare if I merge 2.35 and 2.4), but second the mask end stops have been factory set at 2.4, and there are dire warnings about reprogramming the end stops in the manual. I can see from the setup that once you get past a certain point the masks would interfere with the bungee mechanism that keeps them taut. 

The manufacturer make a point of the higher up models supporting masking down to wider ratios.

Unless by manually you mean - stick something else on the screen to mask it, which I'm not going to do.

Note my screen is perhaps the more unusual mask configuration as it is 16:9 with top and bottom masks. I think folk are more likely to get a CIH 2 way mask screen, and those are usually manufactured with a max 2.4 ratio because of the width of the screen. My room is a bit small for that setup as I would end up with 16:9 feeling much too small.

If I ever move house to somewhere where I can have a bigger screen I will try to get a 4 way masking setup by hook or by crook. 

I am firmly of the opinion that correct masking is one of the best upgrades anyone can make in their theatre.


----------



## Oliver Klohs

bobof said:


> I don't think so. My screen has 2 limitations; firstly it only supports 6 positions (though I have a spare if I merge 2.35 and 2.4), but second the mask end stops have been factory set at 2.4, and there are dire warnings about reprogramming the end stops in the manual. I can see from the setup that once you get past a certain point the masks would interfere with the bungee mechanism that keeps them taut.
> 
> The manufacturer make a point of the higher up models supporting masking down to wider ratios.
> 
> Unless by manually you mean - stick something else on the screen to mask it, which I'm not going to do.
> 
> Note my screen is perhaps the more unusual mask configuration as it is 16:9 with top and bottom masks. I think folk are more likely to get a CIH 2 way mask screen, and those are usually manufactured with a max 2.4 ratio because of the width of the screen. My room is a bit small for that setup as I would end up with 16:9 feeling much too small.
> 
> If I ever move house to somewhere where I can have a bigger screen I will try to get a 4 way masking setup by hook or by crook.
> 
> I am firmly of the opinion that correct masking is one of the best upgrades anyone can make in their theatre.


Understood and I completely get what you say - I find black bars on the top and bottom of the screen extremely annoying, a little less so on the sides.

As for movies wider than 2.4:1 luckily there aren't that many modern movies that come to mind except for The Hateful Eight and La La Land.


----------



## aguy

bobof said:


> I am firmly of the opinion that correct masking is one of the best upgrades anyone can make in their theatre.


I 100% agree 

The one thing I consistently get comments from guests about is the automated side masking panels as they move when the movie starts 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Oliver Klohs said:


> As for movies wider than 2.4:1 luckily there aren't that many modern movies that come to mind except for The Hateful Eight and La La Land.


I guess the fear of missing out really kicks in on those kind of titles though, and they make me feel disproportionately dissatisfied even though, as everyone points out, they are few and far between. In going for the wider ratios the creatives are really trying to say something - it's clearly had some thought, so not being able to see it in the intended glory is a bitter pill when you sell yourself on trying to see things as intended. (note this isn't a Lumagen criticism, it's an indictment of my own room and screen setup).

Same with the "IMAX" VAR titles - though I say "IMAX" as the AR of the content we get on disc is a bit different to what it was in Imax theatres. Having heard several interviews of the folk involved in making these movies, I am convinced the way they really want that content watching is with the VAR, and I want to watch it that way, even if the changing AR challenges me a bit; what are movies for if not challenging us?

I think if I ever get that new room, I'm going to try and set it so that 2.4 is just about comfortable, but with spare width to be able to go wider for content that is available at wider AR, and probably showing the consumer "IMAX" stuff wider than standard 2.4, which I think would actually be the best match for the intent that could be achieved at home.

Anyway, this is venturing into off-topic AR ramblings...


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> Are you saying that films with a 1.66 or 2.5 aspect ratio are not shown in the proper aspect? Or that the Lumagen doesn’t report that aspect to a masking system?


As you may know, the Lumagen currently only reports a limited number of supported source aspect ratios, which are tied to, if I understand correctly:

Input → In Configs → [Resolution] → [#] → Size → [Aspect Ratio]

This setup option allows you to tailor each of the supported aspect ratios as needed. The supported aspect ratios act as "buckets" for similar aspect ratios. Any unsupported aspect ratio is thrown into the nearest bucket. So, to answer your question, the Lumagen doesn't report the actual source aspect ratio, it only reports which bucket it's in. This is a problem for those of us auto-masking as without accurate reporting of source aspect ratio there are many instances of incorrect masking, which then requires manual intervention to resolve.

The problem is growing, as highlighted by myself and others, in that not only is there an extant body of work out there with unsupported aspect ratios, including some very important titles, but that companies like Netflix and others are increasingly experimenting with them too, increasing the likelihood of more unsupported aspect ratios popping up over time.

I don't know what the long term solution is. It would seem unfeasible to increase the buckets to accommodate every possible source resolution so that reporting is then by default accurate, but I do think Lumagen is smart enough to find a solution. For now, my intuition is that the actual source aspect ratio could simply be added to the relevant ZQI status message, to be picked up by automation systems, which immediately solves the problem for auto-masking.


----------



## aguy

Mark_H said:


> As you may know, the Lumagen currently only reports a limited number of supported source aspect ratios, which are tied to, if I understand correctly:
> 
> Input → In Configs → [Resolution] → [#] → Size → [Aspect Ratio]
> 
> This setup option allows you to tailor each of the supported aspect ratios as needed. The supported aspect ratios act as "buckets" for similar aspect ratios. Any unsupported aspect ratio is thrown into the nearest bucket. So, to answer your question, the Lumagen doesn't report the actual source aspect ratio, it only reports which bucket it's in. This is a problem for those of us auto-masking as without accurate reporting of source aspect ratio there are many instances of incorrect masking, which then requires manual intervention to resolve.
> 
> The problem is growing, as highlighted by myself and others, in that not only is there an extant body of work out there with unsupported aspect ratios, including some very important titles, but that companies like Netflix and others are increasingly experimenting with them too, increasing the likelihood of more unsupported aspect ratios popping up over time.
> 
> I don't know what the long term solution is. It would seem unfeasible to increase the buckets to accommodate every possible source resolution so that reporting is then by default accurate, but I do think Lumagen is smart enough to find a solution. For now, my intuition is that the actual source aspect ratio could simply be added to the relevant ZQI status message, to be picked up by automation systems, which immediately solves the problem for auto-masking.


You have said what I was trying to say but in a much clearer way. I would like to see the lumagen report both the actual aspect ratio as well as the bucket. And yes this could be in a ZQI status message as you write. That is what I was trying to say a few posts ago but you’ve said it in a much more intelligible way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> I don't know what the long term solution is. It would seem unfeasible to increase the buckets to accommodate every possible source resolution so that reporting is then by default accurate, but I do think Lumagen is smart enough to find a solution. * For now, my intuition is that the actual source aspect ratio could simply be added to the relevant ZQI status message, to be picked up by automation systems, which immediately solves the problem for auto-masking.*


For me that would work for me at the moment, where I'm mostly CIW, so I only need to know the height and can set masks appropriately, though I think you might want to pair it with a "manual" aspect mode, where the scaling and blanking were able to be arbitrarily set over the control interface; otherwise non-zooming CIH users wouldn't have any way to scale accurately. Though I think it is better for it to all be contained within the Radiance, as such a setup would inevitably be another source of delay.


----------



## Nima

I think I asked this before but what would be the procedure if NOT using a 3D Lut inside the Lumagen to calibrate a JVC NX/NZ projector?

Edit: Stupid me saw that Jim already answered my questions some posts ago. Sorry.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> For me that would work for me at the moment, where I'm mostly CIW, so I only need to know the height and can set masks appropriately, though I think you might want to pair it with a "manual" aspect mode, where the scaling and blanking were able to be arbitrarily set over the control interface; otherwise non-zooming CIH users wouldn't have any way to scale accurately.


That’s an interesting suggestion: a new "manual" [Aspect Ratio] which can be programmed by automation systems. I’m CIH (2.35:1), non-zoom, which I now see means there must be some top/bottom cropping on some non-bucket aspect ratios between 1.78:1 and 2.35:1 taking place  It would be nice to get 100% accurate zoom as well, but at this point I'd settle to just be able to auto-mask correctly. One step at a time!  



> Though I think it is better for it to all be contained within the Radiance, as such a setup would inevitably be another source of delay.


Agreed.


----------



## Nima

One question though that was not answered. When not using a 3D Lut, has anyone done Gamma and Greyscale in the Lumagen and Color in the JVC NX/NZ? Is this workflow feasible?


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> I will talk with Jim about it once they're thinking about it again. Though as I say, for me I find AA basically meets my needs for the most part - some of that is because my "el cheapo" (!) mask screen has some limitations that are not dissimilar to the Lumagen (limited travel, only 6 presets, etc). @Mark_H is probably slightly more aggrieved as from his sig I can see he has the "big boy" "proper" version of my screen with 4 way masks and I think controls which are more versatile.
> 
> -
> 
> As an aside, if you are a 2.4 CIH enthusiast, what's actually the "right" thing to do with a 2.55 movie - watch it in 2.55 with bars, or zoom it with left/right cropped? Or >shudder< a little NLS?! (joking!).
> I guess in an ideal world you'd actually source a screen with 4 way masking that was wider than your optimum 2.4:1 screen size, so you could present it wider still than 2.4


I watch 2.55:1 movies with black bars. The black bars are small and hardly noticeable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

gamma


Craig Peer said:


> I watch 2.55:1 movies with black bars. The black bars are small and hardly noticeable.


When you are used to all other ARs being masked correctly though they do grate a little; I think your setup / outlook is a little different as with only 2 selectable ratios you may be a bit more forgiving of incorrect ratios, what we have ourselves that we have accepted in our own installs colours our judgement... I've given up on the amount of people with 16:9 screens who tell me I shouldn't worry about the black bars at all and that they hardly notice them!


----------



## SJHT

II have a 16:9 screen and hate black bars.. would be OK if I was running a Christie Eclipse, but not lol. That’s why I have top masking and use the Lumagen to help. If there is an aspect ratio I don’t have with masking, I just fill in/zoom/etc. to the closest larger one. That’s why having Lumagen have many aspect ratios is great because we can program our preferences. SJ


----------



## Erod

Pardon my apparent laziness, but I don't have the time at the moment to look back through the thread right now. 

I understand a big update is coming soon. When is that supposed to happen, and what will be the benefits/improvements/fixes?


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> Pardon my apparent laziness, but I don't have the time at the moment to look back through the thread right now.
> 
> I understand a big update is coming soon. When is that supposed to happen, and what will be the benefits/improvements/fixes?


Merry Christmas:









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Here is an update on Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement efforts: I talked with Patrick earlier today. He says the pipeline enhancements are coming along nicely, and that there is a clean image at 4k60 in to 4k60 out 1:1. There is more work to get the up-scale, and down-scale, cleaned up. Other...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hi, is there a way how to add HDR10+ to Lumagen? An old post…. New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Been a while since we had a firmware update. That pipeline improvement must be getting close! Just about a month. Seems to be the norm. It’s quiet. Everyone must be happy watching movies.




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Ilushka85

So I received my lumagen radiance pro today. I have a jvc nz8 on the way and have meanwhile been playing with the lumagen and my old projector and new scope screen. I also have control4 with the lumagen driver.

My ideal setup is this:

I have a mode setup for constant 2.4 mode with auto aspect to scale 16:9 to my 2.4 screen --- I have this working fine now so things are always in screen when auto aspect kicks in. Basically this mode would be for 2.35-2.40 movies.

I would then want a different mode which is a dedicated 16.9 mode... in this mode I would zoom my projector to 16:9 on screen via digital zoom and not use auto aspect.

Does this seem correct or should I be doing something different? 

The other option I have thought of is to have auto aspect on but not scale the image and just report to c4 that it detected 16:9 and cause the projector to zoom. Then cause it to zoom when it detects 2.35-2.4. Thoughts?


----------



## jbrinegar

Ilushka85 said:


> So I received my lumagen radiance pro today. I have a jvc nz8 on the way and have meanwhile been playing with the lumagen and my old projector and new scope screen. I also have control4 with the lumagen driver.
> 
> My ideal setup is this:
> 
> I have a mode setup for constant 2.4 mode with auto aspect to scale 16:9 to my 2.4 screen --- I have this working fine now so things are always in screen when auto aspect kicks in. Basically this mode would be for 2.35-2.40 movies.
> 
> I would then want a different mode which is a dedicated 16.9 mode... in this mode I would zoom my projector to 16:9 on screen via digital zoom and not use auto aspect.
> 
> Does this seem correct or should I be doing something different?
> 
> The other option I have thought of is to have auto aspect on but not scale the image and just report to c4 that it detected 16:9 and cause the projector to zoom. Then cause it to zoom when it detects 2.35-2.4. Thoughts?


I just let the Lumagen auto aspect handle it all, no zooming.


----------



## Ilushka85

jbrinegar said:


> I just let the Lumagen auto aspect handle it all, no zooming.


But then you are losing quality at 16x9 no ?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Ilushka85 said:


> But then you are losing quality at 16x9 no ?


Yes that’s correct but I’d rather that than zooming the lens all the time.


----------



## jbrinegar

Ilushka85 said:


> But then you are losing quality at 16x9 no ?


probably, but the Lumagen is so good at this that I am unable to tell.
I prefer to let the Lumagen handle it so I don’t have to worry about zooming and different brightness/iris settings


----------



## DigitalAV

Plan is to make 16x9 scaling on scope screens even better with the pipeline enhancement (as early as first Alpha release!). Lumagen's finger always on our pulse, good stuff:



jrp said:


> Here is my expected list for the _first_ Alpha Release improvements:
> 
> 
> Up-scaling anything to anything, including 4096 wide output and anamorphic content scaling.
> *Some of the 16:9 on a 2.40 screen down-scaling improvement.*
> We may not have NLS in the first Alpha release.
> There may be some limits on settings in the first Alpha release. I am not sure what these will be.


----------



## aguy

I used to change my projector zoom all the time to accomodate different aspect ratios. This was before I got my lumagen. 

Now the projector stays zoomed permanently for 2.4 and the lumagen down scales 16:9 movies to fit inside the height of the 2.4 screen. 

Yes as the other posters have noted it is a theoretical loss of quality. 

BUT the lumagen is so good and the end user experience so much better without any projector lens memory changing. 

Try it this way and I doubt you will go back to changing lens memories. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

Ilushka85 said:


> But then you are losing quality at 16x9 no ?


Plus some light loss when no anamorphic lens is being used. However, after many years of ZOOMing, I've also switched to scope only and let the Lumagen scale. Huge convenience (no zooming/less calibrations/fewer configs) gain offsets any quality issues I had. Easy enough for you to try.


----------



## Ilushka85

And if not zooming and doing this. Thoughts on adding a pnamorph lens ?


----------



## jbrinegar

Ilushka85 said:


> And if not zooming and doing this. Thoughts on adding a pnamorph lens ?


I have a DCR lens and love the extra brightness. I’m at the minimum end of the throw and do have some minor barrel distortion, but it’s hidden in the frame.

Although it’s a minor issue really, the two things I’d love to see in the Lumagen would be some type of geometry correction for this, and quicker aspect ratio detection that the user could toggle on for non scope safe movies (for example ST into darkness uhd disc)


----------



## dlinsley

jbrinegar said:


> Although it’s a minor issue really, the two things I’d love to see in the Lumagen would be some type of geometry correction for this


When we were asking for this a couple of years ago, I think it was @bobof who had the suggestion of adding a curved mask option. I'm at 1.42:1 throw and don't notice the distortion in content but can see it in the sides of non-scope content. Presumably this would be easier to implement than variable scaling across the image and likely a nice work around.


----------



## loggeo

jbrinegar said:


> I have a DCR lens and love the extra brightness. I’m at the minimum end of the throw and do have some minor barrel distortion, but it’s hidden in the frame.
> 
> Although it’s a minor issue really, the two things I’d love to see in the Lumagen would be some type of geometry correction for this, and quicker aspect ratio detection that the user could toggle on for non scope safe movies (for example ST into darkness uhd disc)


I second that!


----------



## lellimecnar

jbrinegar said:


> I have a DCR lens and love the extra brightness. I’m at the minimum end of the throw and do have some minor barrel distortion, but it’s hidden in the frame.


Yeah, I've got a DCR Lens too, with an 185" 2.40:1 screen. The distortion is only visible across the top, but it's VERY noticeable... I really want to go frameless, so I've got my screen suspended 10" from the wall. My plan is to cover the wall with black velvet, but the distortion across the top is so bad that I'd be cutting out a fairly sizeable sliver from the top-middle of the image... But since it's so far from the wall, any spillover isn't even visible from the main viewing position—except for below the screen.


----------



## jbrinegar

lellimecnar said:


> Yeah, I've got a DCR Lens too, with an 185" 2.40:1 screen. The distortion is only visible across the top, but it's VERY noticeable... I really want to go frameless, so I've got my screen suspended 10" from the wall. My plan is to cover the wall with black velvet, but the distortion across the top is so bad that I'd be cutting out a fairly sizeable sliver from the top-middle of the image... But since it's so far from the wall, any spillover isn't even visible from the main viewing position—except for below the screen.


That’s a big screen! I bet the immersion is impressive.


----------



## lellimecnar

jbrinegar said:


> That’s a big screen! I bet the immersion is impressive.


Yep! Main seating position is 11' from the screen... And with the 9.1.6 speaker setup, it's pretty freaking amazing... 

...even without drywall...


----------



## OzHDHT

lellimecnar said:


> Yep! Main seating position is 11' from the screen... And with the 9.1.6 speaker setup, it's pretty freaking amazing...
> 
> ...even without drywall...


Wow that's a lot of screen to light up with the RS3000. I thought my 150" scope at 13.5ft viewing distance was fairly close with my RS4500, but 11ft from 185" definitely trumps that by a ways! One of my smallest ever setups was 126" scope in a tiny basement media room, where I sat 10-11ft from the screen and that felt close even. I'm trying to visual 185" at 11ft, wow.


----------



## lellimecnar

OzHDHT said:


> Wow that's a lot of screen to light up with the RS3000. I thought my 150" scope at 13.5ft viewing distance was fairly close with my RS4500, but 11ft from 185" definitely trumps that by a ways! One of my smallest ever setups was 126" scope in a tiny basement media room, where I sat 10-11ft from the screen and that felt close even. I'm trying to visual 185" at 11ft, wow.


I've got the RS2000, not the RS3000.

It's not blindingly bright, by any means, but the DCR lens certainly helps. I can get my room pitch black, so dark to bright scenes can still make you flinch.


----------



## OzHDHT

lellimecnar said:


> I've got the RS2000, not the RS3000.
> 
> It's not blindingly bright, by any means, but the DCR lens certainly helps. I can get my room pitch black, so dark to bright scenes can still make you flinch.


Sorry I was looking at wrong sig. A 2000, now I'm really quite blown away there. My NX7 goes nicely on my 130" scope set up, but it would struggle in my 150" with DCR even next to the RS4500 that itself isn't always optimal at mid-laser for some content. What screen have you got?


----------



## lellimecnar

OzHDHT said:


> What screen have you got?


It's custom-built Seymour Center Stage UF.


----------



## OzHDHT

lellimecnar said:


> It's custom-built Seymour Center Stage UF.


Exactly same screen as my 130" NX7 setup. So also very compromised gain you're dealing with there with the 2000 to light up that size, again wow. How do you find HDR content on your setup. I get SDR you can get away with things with a much drama. HDR content is where I find all the issues and starting to take over as a primary source, especially with streaming these days.


----------



## lellimecnar

OzHDHT said:


> How do you find HDR content on your setup.


I'm still figuring out the calibration and stuff. I just redid the settings on my Lumagen, and now I'm outputting SDR to the projector, whereas I was outputting HDR before. I think it's much brighter overall now. Bright high-contrast scenes sorta spill into the shadows, but overall it looks pretty good to me. I don't really have anything to compare it to though. This is the only projector I've had in this room...


----------



## OzHDHT

Yeah you want to make sure you're taking advantage of the Lumagen's DTM over the built in DTM in the 2000. That definitely will get you most you can out of the setup for sure. I don't want to put ideas in your head but I'm definitely imagining you trying out an NZ9 or at very least NZ8 in your room.


----------



## Ilushka85

How well will a nz8 be for hdr on an si pure white 1.3 screen that’s 170” 2.4:1 from the minimal throw distance ?


----------



## jbrinegar

Ilushka85 said:


> How well will a nz8 be for hdr on an si pure white 1.3 screen that’s 170” 2.4:1 from the minimal throw distance ?


I don’t know. That’s a big screen, and I don’t know what the actual real world gain is on that screen.

I’d def add a DCR for extra brightness


----------



## DigitalAV

Ilushka85 said:


> How well will a nz8 be for hdr on an si pure white 1.3 screen that’s 170” 2.4:1 from the minimal throw distance ?


Figure out your approx max nits on 100% white, multiply that number by 4ish, use that result as your Max Light value in the Radiance Pro's DTM settings -- HDR effect might not be all that impressive, but at least it won't be too dim.


----------



## Ilushka85

DigitalAV said:


> Figure out your approx max nits on 100% white, multiply that number by 4ish, use that result as your Max Light value in the Radiance Pro's DTM settings -- HDR effect might not be all that impressive, but at least it won't be too dim.


So what would it take to get nice hdr on a screen this size ? Perhaps canceling nz8 and getting something different ? I’m about 19 ft away from screen.


----------



## OzHDHT

Ilushka85 said:


> How well will a nz8 be for hdr on an si pure white 1.3 screen that’s 170” 2.4:1 from the minimal throw distance ?


That's bigger than my 150" SI Pure White and why I'm swapping to NZ9 from my RS4500. I'm not even going to test the NZ8 I'm getting to replace my 130" scope NX7 setup on that screen. You may scrape through, but with HDR it would be bit marginal perhaps at times on certain content. My setup feels decent at mid-laser the 4500 but still feels a little lacking at times on some HDR content and that's with a DCR. The NZ8 will be pretty close on high laser to mid on the 4500 with the same setup.


----------



## Ilushka85

OzHDHT said:


> That's bigger than my 150" SI Pure White and why I'm swapping to NZ9 from my RS4500. I'm not even going to test the NZ8 I'm getting to replace my 130" scope NX7 setup on that screen. You may scrape through, but with HDR it would be bit marginal perhaps at times on certain content. My setup feels decent at mid-laser the 4500 but still feels a little lacking at times on some HDR content and that's with a DCR. The NZ8 will be pretty close on high laser to mid on the 4500 with the same setup.


is the 4500 the same as the nz9?


----------



## OzHDHT

Ilushka85 said:


> is the 4500 the same as the nz9?


Very close to. The difference being usable high laser if you're set up has the projector overhead due to very minimal fan noise compared to the RS4500. Plus the other improvements I won't delve into here.


----------



## Ilushka85

OzHDHT said:


> Very close to. The difference being usable high laser if you're set up has the projector overhead due to very minimal fan noise compared to the RS4500. Plus the other improvements I won't delve into here.


So would you say worth cancelling nz8 and not even trying on the 170 from 18.5 ft ?


----------



## Ilushka85

Perhaps nz8 and panamorph can it fix the hdr issue ?


----------



## OzHDHT

Ilushka85 said:


> So would you say worth cancelling nz8 and not even trying on the 170 from 18.5 ft ?


You could try it but I think if given the option and you can afford it, I'd be getting the NZ9 to light up that screen size. My 4500 is already at 16.5ft, so I can't see 18.5ft being any different in your setup unfortunately.



Ilushka85 said:


> Perhaps nz8 and panamorph can it fix the hdr issue ?


I'm already talking about a scenario like mine with the DCR lens. It's helps brighten scope content but it's not going get you that far really overall.


----------



## DigitalAV

General concensus is you need at least 30fL for "decent" HDR. For a 170" diag 1.4 gain scope screen you'd need a projector that can do at least 2060 sustainable, calibrated lumens (1540 with DCR lens). Maybe the NZ8 can get there, who knows, wait for reviews. Should probably take this to the JVC threads instead.

This is with the understanding you'll definitely use DTM and have a wide enough color gamut to get at least some advantage of HDR over SDR.

At that screen size you're really just trying to get HDR look _as good_ as SDR. Projectors are incredibly difficult to achieve just this -- because you're talking 10 fold compression on avg -- enter the Radiance Pro (or JVC on-board DTM).

Imho you'll need to readjust your expectation of how HDR will look on a projector (compared to current HDR TVs) unless you're willing to go in the 5000+ lumen range coupled with good contrast, then you're talking crazy expensive stuff.


----------



## OzHDHT

Definitely on the money there re lumen level to light up that screen size. I think 1.4 gain screen is also quite lot more spec than most are using as well. I know in my own setup my SI Pure White is specced at 1.3, but I'm sure a ways off in reality. From Kris D's feedback on setting up an NZ8 under the same conditions as an NZ9, he was able to approximate the the NZ9's brightness at medium laser he's mentioned. It maybe possible to 'get away' with the NZ8 on 150" screens but I'm not of a mind personally to advocate for 'scraping through' so to speak if there's an alternative. Enough years with the 4500 on 150" has helped guide me with it. It's that difference you know is there with high laser on it, but so seldomly go there with the fan noise issue and end up tweaking the last ounce out Lumagen DTM to get all you can out of mid laser..


----------



## Nima

Is anyone using a Lumagen with a new JVC NZ? Are there any problems?


----------



## OzHDHT

You may want to give it a few more weeks for them to arrive in people's homes. Aside from the obvious limits to the Radiance's existing HDMI capabilities compared to the new NZ series' 2.1 capabilities, I doubt there's much to go wrong.


----------



## Silentmac

What does „4096 wide output“ in Jim‘s announcement for the pipeline alpha release exactly mean? An output on a scope screen without bars?


----------



## loggeo

Since most dcr users have their projectors installed to the shortest throw possible (we are starving for lumens!!!), geometry issues will arise.
I believe that Lumagen should consider adding a geometry correction feature.


----------



## Clark Burk

loggeo said:


> Since most dcr users have their projectors installed to the shortest throw possible (we are starving for lumens!!!), geometry issues will arise.
> I believe that Lumagen should consider adding a geometry correction feature.


Sounds good in principal but how would a processor handle that? How would the processor know anything about your projector? It sounds like too many variables with things like throw distance, screen size, even the brand. That sounds like something better handled by the projector processing.


----------



## loggeo

Clark Burk said:


> Sounds good in principal but how would a processor handle that? How would the processor know anything about your projector? It sounds like too many variables with things like throw distance, screen size, even the brand. That sounds like something better handled by the projector processing.


A video processor already does it and it is impressive.
It is like a warping tool. It has nothing to do with the projector or throw distance.


----------



## loggeo

I found a useful post from sometime ago by a forum member regarding warping.


----------



## Clark Burk

loggeo said:


> A video processor already does it and it is impressive.
> It is like a warping tool. It has nothing to do with the projector or throw distance.


Interesting. I wasn't aware anyone had done this yet. I know MadVR did anamorphic scaling but wasn't aware they were doing panel alignment.


----------



## OzHDHT

Nima said:


> Is anyone using a Lumagen with a new JVC NZ? Are there any problems?


Here you go, NZ9 not NZ7 but you can apply what's said here re the Lumagen. Sounds like it's being sorted out by Jim and co as we speak 









Official JVC RS4100/NZ9 - RS3100/NZ8 - RS2100/NZ7 -...


I am not an expert but I think if you could post a pic of the results someone could just tell you how they 'formally' look. Unfortunately, taking an accurate photo of a projected image is just as challenging as calibrating a projector. Kind of like listening to speakers on YouTube. Even so...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## jqmn

Question on RP Black Level and Upscaling-- I set the RP to upscale BDs to 4K instead of using the upscaling in the projector. No changes were made in the projector or any other changes made in the RP. This upscaling condition causes random below black bars to light up and black levels raised overall in a black bar pattern. Changing the RP back to a pass thru resolution instead of upscaling eliminates the issue. The projector is hard set to LIMITED and if switched to FULL lights everything up to a whole 'nother level so I know it isn't the projector or the BD player (422). Any ideas why upscaling 1080p24 to 3840p24 on the RP would affect below black? Thank-you.


----------



## Ironman1718

I’m using the RS3100/NZ8 and my lumagen 5348. No issues so far using it with Kscape/Roku/AppleTV/Panasonic Blu-ray or xbox series x… my only question is can we game at 120HZ while running through the lumagen? My guess is no but looking for other input.


----------



## Clark Burk

Ironman1718 said:


> I’m using the RS3100/NZ8 and my lumagen 5348. No issues so far using it with Kscape/Roku/AppleTV/Panasonic Blu-ray or xbox series x… my only question is can we game at 120HZ while running through the lumagen? My guess is no but looking for other input.


If you’re thinking 4k 120HZ I think the answer is no. The HDMI chipset is not up to that speed.


----------



## Technology3456

loggeo said:


> A video processor already does it and it is impressive.
> It is like a warping tool. It has nothing to do with the projector or throw distance.


Here is a video example of warping. Geobox can do this for two projectors at once or I guess more with some models, so that's why you see two grids where they are adjusting each and blending the edges (which is another separate feature), but should demonstrate well how it can work. I haven't seen how it works on the Madvr Envy. 



. About 1:34 of the video. This model lets you adjust full lines one grid at a time, while never models let you do full lines at a time for quicker adjustments or something.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Hi all - I'm using a Shield with Kodi to feed my Lumagen (and then x7900) and I'm looking to replace the Shield/Kodi experience to play backups. What do most people feed their Lumagen's with as a network video payer? Thanks


----------



## 187crew003

Shield Pro is the best thing available atm. only device to play local atmos/dtsx


----------



## DannyBoy73

187crew003 said:


> Shield Pro is the best thing available atm. only device to play local atmos/dtsx


What about devices like Zappiti, Dune-HD or Zidoo?


----------



## Clark Burk

DannyBoy73 said:


> What about devices like Zappiti, Dune-HD or Zidoo?


I think for playing backups any of the ones you mentioned would be good. I love the Oppo 203 as it plays everything. Only down side is the user interface. All of the players mentioned will let you do source direct which is good as the Lumagen is excellent at up scaling.


----------



## sjschaff

DannyBoy73 said:


> What about devices like Zappiti, Dune-HD or Zidoo?


I use a Zappiti Pro ACE and it's fine, though I've had two issues:

1) One, which I've no clue on just how to resolve, it playing 4K HDR10 sources, where every 10-15 minutes I get what appears to be some jerky motion (not clear if the term judder or stutter is correct). I think there's some problem with timing or frame drops or whatever. I can go back and play through again without problems, so it's not likely the source of network from my NAS at fault. I've done most everything I can think of on the Zappiti. The OK button on the LRP shows that both input/output are spot on (only difference is chroma 444 input and 422 on the output to the projector).

2) using the Audio Only output from the Zappiti to the input on the Trinnov cannot deal with DD+, so I use the Audio+Video output. And I don't think anything changes from current shipping to new models for this issue. There may be ways around it by forcing the bitstream data and specifying the Codecolby Atmos/Dolby Digital Plus as Custom
but I've yet to experiment with this.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Odroid N2 running Coreelec “kodi”. Best player for playback from NAS. You get HDR metadata and atmos dts x.


----------



## sjschaff

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Odroid N2 running Coreelec “kodi”. Best player for playback from NAS. You get HDR metadata and atmos dts x.


Which version of Kodi? I had significant dropout issues using Kodi earlier this year with the Nvidia Shield 9 and I believe this is still an ongoing problem. Can't revert back to 8.x it seems. That's one reason I went with the Zappiti, which in all other respects is far better than numerous alternatives.


----------



## aguy

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Odroid N2 running Coreelec “kodi”. Best player for playback from NAS. You get HDR metadata and atmos dts x.


I use exactly the same. Best player I’ve used 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sjschaff

aguy said:


> I use exactly the same. Best player I’ve used
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting build project. But I'm more interested in getting a finished product at this point that just works and without much fussing and fighting with too many OS/App settings, especially when using external video and audio processors.


----------



## Bill DePalma

sjschaff said:


> I use a Zappiti Pro ACE and it's fine, though I've had two issues:
> 
> 1) One, which I've no clue on just how to resolve, it playing 4K HDR10 sources, where every 10-15 minutes I get what appears to be some jerky motion (not clear if the term judder or stutter is correct). I think there's some problem with timing or frame drops or whatever. I can go back and play through again without problems, so it's not likely the source of network from my NAS at fault. I've done most everything I can think of on the Zappiti. The OK button on the LRP shows that both input/output are spot on (only difference is chroma 444 input and 422 on the output to the projector).
> 
> 2) using the Audio Only output from the Zappiti to the input on the Trinnov cannot deal with DD+, so I use the Audio+Video output. And I don't think anything changes from current shipping to new models for this issue. There may be ways around it by forcing the bitstream data and specifying the Codecolby Atmos/Dolby Digital Plus as Custom
> but I've yet to experiment with this.


I have the same player and the same problem. The issue is the older chip the ACE player is using, the new players as well as the Zidoo and Dune do not have this problem. i Have been talking on a daily basis with Zappiti but for the most part they don’t think it is an issue, but my Stuttering video says otherwise. Sorry to vent and hijack.


----------



## sjschaff

Thanks Bill. I too have had a run around with Raphael (over in France) on this, as well as Will down in Miami. I seriously doubt the newer players will solve this issue. However, you must have received more information than I have on this topic. I don't seem to have this with any 1080p either OTA (Tivo Roamio), DVD or Blu-Ray source material. Only with things like 2160 based films (e.g. To Catch a Thief, etc.). And it's really hard to discern which codecs are in play. I don't have any VC-1 or other ones that Zappiti has spotted. And support has recommended trying all kinds of things (most of which make little sense to me), like disabling Direct Mode. I'm tempted to turn off Genlock on the LRP to see if that "fixes" the issue. Just baffling...


----------



## EVH78

deleted


----------



## 187crew003

why Kodi?

why not plex or emby?


----------



## aguy

Why not kodi ? It does what I want very well. Plays media files that are on my NAS. Correctly outputs sdr and HDR including metadata. 

Plus dtsX and atmos play correctly. Atmos ok either eac or truehd as the base track 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 187crew003

aguy said:


> Why not kodi ? It does what I want very well. Plays media files that are on my NAS. Correctly outputs sdr and HDR including metadata.
> 
> Plus dtsX and atmos play correctly. Atmos ok either eac or truehd as the base track
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry. Thought I read someone having issues with kodi


----------



## aguy

There are always some little issues with Kodi as with any software. 

The most recent update mostly fixed a long standing bug with dropouts on some atmos tracks. But it may have slightly worsened some video stuttering very occasionally. I can’t see thy I’ve seen that happening. 

Overall though I find the user experience very good 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sjschaff

187crew003 said:


> why Kodi?
> 
> why not plex or emby?


If you have either BMDV or ISO you won’t be able to play them via Plex.


----------



## OzHDHT

sjschaff said:


> If you have either BMDV or ISO you won’t be able to play them via Plex.


I use PMS simply due to fact you can serve media to a lot of different device types. I use it on my NAS's across different locations and can content share easily to different places easily. When I come across a file with an issue such an ISO or audio format plex hasn't sorted yet, I just switch over to Infuse since it's able to completely mimic Plex media player right down to last played and resume playback of media that's been playing in Plex. That pretty much does all I need even in the HT without firing the HTPC these days.


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> Thanks Bill. I too have had a run around with Raphael (over in France) on this, as well as Will down in Miami. I seriously doubt the newer players will solve this issue. However, you must have received more information than I have on this topic. I don't seem to have this with any 1080p either OTA (Tivo Roamio), DVD or Blu-Ray source material. Only with things like 2160 based films (e.g. To Catch a Thief, etc.). And it's really hard to discern which codecs are in play. I don't have any VC-1 or other ones that Zappiti has spotted. And support has recommended trying all kinds of things (most of which make little sense to me), like disabling Direct Mode. I'm tempted to turn off Genlock on the LRP to see if that "fixes" the issue. Just baffling...


I just installed a Zappiti NEO and it works great. Metadata is sent to my JVC projector and a lot of little issues I had with the Pro 4K player are gone. Love it. Definitely turn off Genlock - I think it was causing some problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandel

I was wondering if the Lumagen Pro could help with the following issue:
Some videos/DVDs/BluRays are mastered in a wrong way so the black floor is grey and not black. This only happens very rarely but when it occurs it's pretty annoying.
Is there a way to fix this temporarily?


----------



## bobof

Sandel said:


> I was wondering if the Lumagen Pro could help with the following issue:
> Some videos/DVDs/BluRays are mastered in a wrong way so the black floor is grey and not black. This only happens very rarely but when it occurs it's pretty annoying.
> Is there a way to fix this temporarily?


You could copy your regular CMS and adjust the black level, and then switch to a different memory with that CMS configured if you are unhappy with a particular title.


----------



## heath76

copy your regular CMS and adjust the black level, and then switch to a different memory with that CMS configured


----------



## Sandel

bobof said:


> You could copy your regular CMS and adjust the black level, and then switch to a different memory with that CMS configured if you are unhappy with a particular title.





heath76 said:


> copy your regular CMS and adjust the black level, and then switch to a different memory with that CMS configured


Thanks, guys, I'll give it a try!


----------



## GerryWaz

jrp said:


> *Radiance Pro 5244 Introduction:*
> 
> We are pleased to introduce a new member to the Radiance Pro lineup, the Radiance Pro 5244.
> 
> We have sold the few pilot-run units we built, but will have more in mid-January assuming no additional supply side delays.
> 
> The Radiance Pro 5244 has six 18 GHz inputs, one 18 GHz output, and one audio output. It is a subset of the Radiance Pro 5348 design, and has the same performance.
> 
> One difference is for the audio output (Output 1). Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz output board's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. In addition, the 5244 "audio" output can be programmed to "audio + video" at up to 9 GHz.
> 
> The Radiance Pro 5244 comes in the same size 1U case as other rack-mountable Radiance Pro models.


Just curious--anyone else have the new 5244 besides me? If so, what do you think of it?

I'm extremely happy with it. Fits my needs. Only have need for five inputs and one set of outputs. Don't need PIP/POP. If I want to watch two programs at once, I'll pull out my iPad Pro.

The audio improvements are there but subtle, and, like many who commented on the new 5348, I also see video improvements. We watch some digital cable and things like football games look great, better than they were on the 4446+. I exported my configuration from the 4446+ that I was trading in and then imported that into the new 5244. Haven't tweaked anything else since.

Most of my issues have one been thing--ME. Three times I accidentally pressed more than one key on the remote when the unit was in standby mode. This resulted in not being able to turn the 5244 back on. Fix was simple. Unplug the 5244's power cord and then re-plug it in.

Another thing has been working with streaming devices. I have a Roku Ultra (2019) and a 2019 NVidia Shield. If they've gone into standby/sleep mode and I switch to them with the 5244, I'll often get just a colored screen. So I just remember now to awake the streamers first with their remotes before switching to them with the 5244. Although, I did get a white screen once when switching to digital cable and the STB was in active mode. Just went back and forth with another input to quickly fix that.

The other issue I had was with the Roku Ultra. A recent firmware update for the Ultra sometimes caused the display not to be correctly recognized by the Roku software. The Roku said it was 720p and the tests when manually selecting a display never passed correctly. When the Roku Ultra thought the display was 720p I got a smaller image on the screen in the upper left corner of the display. To fix that I either switched to the Shield (which I greatly prefer over the Roku) or unplug/re-plug in the Roku's power plug.

All in all, despite these few minor non-Radiance issues, very pleased.


----------



## GerryWaz

DannyBoy73 said:


> Hi all - I'm using a Shield with Kodi to feed my Lumagen (and then x7900) and I'm looking to replace the Shield/Kodi experience to play backups. What do most people feed their Lumagen's with as a network video payer? Thanks


I'm using the Emby app on a Nvidia Shield Pro 2019 or on a Roku Ultra to play content stored on my Synology DS1520+ with Emby Media Server running. (I actually have two Synology's but one, the DS1520+, only does one thing--store and serve media.)

Of the two, I prefer the Shield for playback. The Roku has too many buffering issues with 4K HDR rips over our network (both wired and wireless connections). No such issues with the Shield.

So far, knock on wood, very pleased with what I'm seeing using Emby on the Shield running to my Radiance Pro 5244.


----------



## Silentmac

Craig Peer said:


> I just installed a Zappiti NEO and it works great. Metadata is sent to my JVC projector and a lot of little issues I had with the Pro 4K player are gone. Love it. Definitely turn off Genlock - I think it was causing some problems.


Thanks Craig. I'm interesting to buy the NEO too. Does source direct work as well? Any first impressions to the picture and sound quality compared to other sources / players?


----------



## Craig Peer

Silentmac said:


> Thanks Craig. I'm interesting to buy the NEO too. Does source direct work as well? Any first impressions to the picture and sound quality compared to other sources / players?


Let's move this conversation to here - Zappiti RTD1619DR (Neo, Reference, Signature) Thread | Page 43 | AVS Forum


----------



## jrp

For those who have not seen it yet, the Radiance Pro 5244 has six 18 GHz inputs, one 18 GHz output (Output 2) and one audio only output (Output 1). It is a subset of the Radiance Pro 5348 design, and has the same performance in all regards.

While more 5348 customers are using all ten inputs than I expected, we have had many people ask for a less expensive Radiance Pro 5XXX with fewer in and out, and that is the main reason we decided to do the 5244.

We only built a few of these for our pilot run, and are sold out. We don't expect to have more unitl the second week. So I was not in a great hurry to announce it. As a side note we are out of the Radiance Pro 5348 until likely about January 7th.

NOTE: Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz card's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio only output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. For now the 5244 audio output is still 1080i, but once the pipeline enhancements are complete we will make the 5244 audio only mode 1080p60. I have not checked but Output 1 should already be able to be set to audio plus video at up to 9 GHz.

The Radiance Pro 5244 retails for $8495 USD in the USA, versus the Radiance Pro 5348 at $9495 USD USA retail. It comes in the same size 1U case as other rack-mountable Radiance Pro models.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> For those who have not seen it yet, the Radiance Pro 5244 has six 18 GHz inputs, one 18 GHz output (Output 2) and one audio only output (Output 1). It is a subset of the Radiance Pro 5348 design, and has the same performance in all regards.
> 
> While more 5348 customers are using all ten inputs than I expected, we have had many people ask for a less expensive Radiance Pro 5XXX with fewer in and out, and that is the main reason we decided to do the 5244.
> 
> We only built a few of these for our pilot run, and are sold out. We don't expect to have more unitl the second week. So I was not in a great hurry to announce it. As a side note we are out of the Radiance Pro 5348 until likely about January 7th.
> 
> NOTE: Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz card's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio only output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. For now the 5244 audio output is still 1080i, but once the pipeline enhancements are complete we will make the 5244 audio only mode 1080p60. I have not checked but Output 1 should already be able to be set to audio plus video at up to 9 GHz.
> 
> The Radiance Pro 5244 retails for $8495 USD in the USA, versus the Radiance Pro 5348 at $9495 USD USA retail. It comes in the same size 1U case as other rack-mountable Radiance Pro models.


Can the audio only output in the 5348 be changed to 1080P in the future? Thanks. SJ


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

SJHT said:


> Can the audio only output in the 5348 be changed to 1080P in the future? Thanks. SJ


Also owners of the 4XXX series. Considering the audio dropouts some people are having may be from the same 720p output.


----------



## DigitalAV

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Also owners of the 4XXX series. Considering the audio dropouts some people are having may be from the same 720p output.


Indeed, really shouldn't be a "feature" of the new 5XXX series to not have audio drops lol, c'mon now


----------



## WCEaglesMan

DigitalAV said:


> Indeed, really shouldn't be a "feature" of the new 5XXX series to not have audio drops lol, c'mon now


Totally agree !


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> For those who have not seen it yet, the Radiance Pro 5244 has six 18 GHz inputs, one 18 GHz output (Output 2) and one audio only output (Output 1). It is a subset of the Radiance Pro 5348 design, and has the same performance in all regards.
> 
> While more 5348 customers are using all ten inputs than I expected, we have had many people ask for a less expensive Radiance Pro 5XXX with fewer in and out, and that is the main reason we decided to do the 5244.
> 
> We only built a few of these for our pilot run, and are sold out. We don't expect to have more unitl the second week. So I was not in a great hurry to announce it. As a side note we are out of the Radiance Pro 5348 until likely about January 7th.
> 
> NOTE: Because we now believe some audio processors are not designed well enough to have solid audio from a 720p60 Radiance Pro 18 GHz card's audio only output (as they are supposed to), we designed the audio only output for the 5244 to run at 1080p60. For now the 5244 audio output is still 1080i, but once the pipeline enhancements are complete we will make the 5244 audio only mode 1080p60. I have not checked but Output 1 should already be able to be set to audio plus video at up to 9 GHz.
> 
> The Radiance Pro 5244 retails for $8495 USD in the USA, versus the Radiance Pro 5348 at $9495 USD USA retail. It comes in the same size 1U case as other rack-mountable Radiance Pro models.


Can you tell more about the issue with Lumagen HDMI and the new JVC's? Is that the same with all Lumagen models? Can it be solved/changed with Lumagen software or does JVC really need to do something? If I understood correctly, the users currently need to downgrade the JVC's to older firmware to get a solid HDMI connection with Lumagen. HDMI looks not to to be the easiest one to implement correctly... Thanks!


----------



## Nima

OzHDHT said:


> Here you go, NZ9 not NZ7 but you can apply what's said here re the Lumagen. Sounds like it's being sorted out by Jim and co as we speak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Official JVC RS4100/NZ9 - RS3100/NZ8 - RS2100/NZ7 -...
> 
> 
> I am not an expert but I think if you could post a pic of the results someone could just tell you how they 'formally' look. Unfortunately, taking an accurate photo of a projected image is just as challenging as calibrating a projector. Kind of like listening to speakers on YouTube. Even so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Thanks, I saw that post. What I do not understand, Jim provided a JVC Firmware as work around? Because the poster said Dynamic Dimming is not working anymore.

@jrp could you chime in here? As I might receive a NZ in the next couple of days. 

Edit: I am using the HDMI Audio out on the Lumagen for Audio (no passthrough AVR)

Edit2: Would using a HD Fury Linker (with another EDID maybe) temporary solve the problem?


----------



## Clark Burk

Perhaps I don’t quite understand the edge rate conversation but it seems as though the LRP has set high engineering standards in it‘s HDMI output boards that apparently is not completely compatible with all the other manufacturers boards. 
Is it possible for the LRP to have a setting that might be able to be changed or adjusted to be more compatible with some of the equipment that it apparently has difficulty communicating with?
I’m all in favor of trying to get the maximum performance possible with our LRPs but if running the boards at high edge rates for maximum audio performance is causing HDMI issues with certain other equipment is it possible to relax the settings on the LRP sacrificing a little performance to boost compatibility?
I’m curious what JVC had to change in their firmware to make it play nice with the Lumagen? Was JVC not adhering to certain standards and is this becoming more common with other manufacturer?


----------



## 187crew003

Clark Burk said:


> Perhaps I don’t quite understand the edge rate conversation but it seems as though the LRP has set high engineering standards in it‘s HDMI output boards that apparently is not completely compatible with all the other manufacturers boards.
> Is it possible for the LRP to have a setting that might be able to be changed or adjusted to be more compatible with some of the equipment that it apparently has difficulty communicating with?
> I’m all in favor of trying to get the maximum performance possible with our LRPs but if running the boards at high edge rates for maximum audio performance is causing HDMI issues with certain other equipment is it possible to relax the settings on the LRP sacrificing a little performance to boost compatibility?
> I’m curious what JVC had to change in their firmware to make it play nice with the Lumagen? Was JVC not adhering to certain standards and is this becoming more common with other manufacturer?


i agree with this. if the high edge rates cause issues there isnt a benefit of having them so high, its more of a hindrance. adjustability would be best


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Can the audio only output in the 5348 be changed to 1080P in the future? Thanks. SJ


The 5348 Output 1, or Output 1 of a 4XXX that has an 18 GHz output card for Output 1 and 2, are driven by a second output port on the 18 GHz output chip that is limited to 720p audio only by the chip manufacturer. So, it will always be 720p audio only.

For the 5348, or the audio only output of an 18 GHz card on a 444X model, if you have issues with your audio processor with the 720p "audio only" output Lumagen recommends that you instead use Output 2 with both audio and video enabled to send audio to your 4k audio processor. This has resolved audio dropouts in a number of systems since the audio + video is running at the video output rate and so in the "sweet spot" of the AVR HDMI input design. There is at least one case of this only giving a "significant improvement" the audio dropouts, but in most cases I know about it has resolved audio dropouts.


----------



## Ilushka85

jrp said:


> The 5348 Output 1, or Output 1 of a 4XXX that has an 18 GHz output card for Output 1 and 2, are driven by a second output port on the 18 GHz output chip that is limited to 720p audio only by the chip manufacturer. So, it will always be 720p audio only.
> 
> For the 5348, or the audio only output of an 18 GHz card on a 444X model, if you have issues with your audio processor with the 720p "audio only" output Lumagen recommends that you instead use Output 2 with both audio and video enabled to send audio to your 4k audio processor. This has resolved audio dropouts in a number of systems since the audio + video is running at the video output rate and so in the "sweet spot" of the AVR HDMI input design. There is at least one case of this only giving a "significant improvement" the audio dropouts, but in most cases I know about it has resolved audio dropouts.



This seems like a pretty big flaw in the design in the 4xxx and 5348. You mentioned 4xxx and 444x above. Are the 42 and 44 different in any way in this regard?


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> For the 5348, or the audio only output of an 18 GHz card on a 444X model, if you have issues with your audio processor with the 720p "audio only" output Lumagen recommends that you instead use Output 2 with both audio and video enabled to send audio to your 4k audio processor. This has resolved audio dropouts in a number of systems since the audio + video is running at the video output rate and so in the "sweet spot" of the AVR HDMI input design. There is at least one case of this only giving a "significant improvement" the audio dropouts, but in most cases I know about it has resolved audio dropouts.


In my case, running audio/video from my lumagen to my denon resulted in terrible sync issues (video and audio), so that configuration isn’t an option for me. And audio dropouts are very common for me when using the audio only out from the lumagen.


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> Can you tell more about the issue with Lumagen HDMI and the new JVC's? Is that the same with all Lumagen models? Can it be solved/changed with Lumagen software or does JVC really need to do something? If I understood correctly, the users currently need to downgrade the JVC's to older firmware to get a solid HDMI connection with Lumagen. HDMI looks not to to be the easiest one to implement correctly... Thanks!


The new production software NZ series of JVC projectors, in at least some cases, have a dropout issue that does not happen with preproduction JVC NZ series software. The issue appears to be JVC changing the HDMI input analog parameters (likely in their FPGA soft-HDMI-core but I am not sure on this) to try to resolve known issues with some name brand AVRs driving the NZ projectors.

We have a preproduction JVC software release that works well for the HDMI input. It is close to the production release, but has some minor difference in the laser-dimming. The important point is that this release is before JVC made the HDMI changes and it works well with the Radiance Pro in the NZ series projectors it has been tested with. If you would like to try this software in your NZ series projector, please email lumagen.com support with the request.

We will continue to work with JVC on this, and have offered to send them a Radiance Pro for their lab if they do not have one.


----------



## Ilushka85

jrp said:


> The new production software NZ series of JVC projectors, in at least some cases, have a dropout issue that does not happen with preproduction JVC NZ series software. The issue appears to be JVC changing the HDMI input analog parameters (likely in their FPGA soft-HDMI-core but I am not sure on this) to try to resolve known issues with some name brand AVRs driving the NZ projectors.
> 
> We have a preproduction JVC software release that works well for the HDMI input. It is close to the production release, but has some minor difference in the laser-dimming. The important point is that this release is before JVC made the HDMI changes and it works well with the Radiance Pro in the NZ series projectors it has been tested with. If you would like to try this software in your NZ series projector, please email lumagen.com support with the request.
> 
> We will continue to work with JVC on this, and have offered to send them a Radiance Pro for their lab if they do not have one.



So I have a jvc nz on the way and a lumagen. So my expectation should be dropouts on video or audio ?


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> likely in their FPGA soft-HDMI-core but I am not sure on this


Is that how they're doing their HDMI2.1 implementation? That's exciting / impressive / terrifying in almost equal measures...


----------



## jrp

Ilushka85 said:


> This seems like a pretty big flaw in the design in the 4xxx and 5348. You mentioned 4xxx and 444x above. Are the 42 and 44 different in any way in this regard?


Wow! Really? You obviously have not read my previous posts on this topic.

The Radiance Pro outputs have the lowest jitter and lowest electrical noise of any HDMI product out there (to the best of our knowledge). They do have faster edge rates and we believe more output EQ than some other products. However, using the $200k defacto industry standard Tektronix HDMI tester, all Radiance Pro outputs are well within the HDMI electrical specifications, including the 720p audio only output. This is quantitative data based on the best HDMI tester on the market. The issue is not with the Radiance Pro output.

Saying that 720p audio only is a "design flaw" shows a lack of understanding of the HDMI specification. AVRs and audio processors are required by the HDMI specification to correctly support all audio formats with a 720p signal. Not doing this well is an issue in the audio processor, not the Radiance Pro. I should point out that many audio processors are designed well and work fine with the 720p audio only output from the Radiance Pro.

The suggestion of using an audio plus video output is to work-around issues in some audio processor.


----------



## Ilushka85

jrp said:


> Wow! Really? You obviously have not read my previous posts on this topic.
> 
> The Radiance Pro outputs have the lowest jitter and lowest electrical noise of any HDMI product out there (to the best of our knowledge). They do have faster edge rates and we believe more output EQ than some other products. However, using the $200k defacto industry standard Tektronix HDMI tester, all Radiance Pro outputs are well within the HDMI electrical specifications, including the 720p audio only output. This is quantitative data based on the best HDMI tester on the market. The issue is not with the Radiance Pro output.
> 
> Saying that 720p audio only is a "design flaw" shows a lack of understanding of the HDMI specification. AVRs and audio processors are required by the HDMI specification to correctly support all audio formats with a 720p signal. Not doing this well is an issue in the audio processor, not the Radiance Pro. I should point out that many audio processors are designed well and work fine with the 720p audio only output from the Radiance Pro.
> 
> The suggestion of using an audio plus video output is to work-around issues in some audio processor.



Im just trying to understand what I should expect once all my gear arrives including lumagen, nz9, and trinnov


----------



## Nima

jrp said:


> The new production software NZ series of JVC projectors, in at least some cases, have a dropout issue that does not happen with preproduction JVC NZ series software. The issue appears to be JVC changing the HDMI input analog parameters (likely in their FPGA soft-HDMI-core but I am not sure on this) to try to resolve known issues with some name brand AVRs driving the NZ projectors.


So if I go from the Oppo to the Lumagen and then into the JVC NZ the problem will not occur?


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Is that how they're doing their HDMI2.1 implementation? That's exciting / impressive / terrifying in almost equal measures...


I am not sure exactly how they are doing the HDMI on the NZ series

What I know is they use an Intel (formerly Altera) Arria10 FPGA in the NX series. Given the I/O configuration of these devices, using a HDMI soft-core in the FPGA is essentially a requirement. They likely are using the Arria10 in the NZ series as well. An assumption on my part but I think it is correct. It makes sense to do so and little sense to change away from the Arria10 (other than to maybe to an Intel Stratix10 which would mean again using an internal HDMI soft-core).

What I don't know is if there is an HDMI buffer chip to do the analog signal buffering and input equalization between the HDMI connector and the FPGA as I would choose to do.

Either way, JVC obviously has some software control over the HDMI analog buffers and input equalization. This is a good thing. However, optimizing the input design using this software control is still a difficult task.


----------



## ShadeRF

Interesting about the issues with the NZ series. I've had some occasional dropouts since I got my RS3100 but only when watching content on my Nvidia Shield (via plex). I haven't had a single dropout from my Oppo 203. I was just thinking I might need to change out my HDMI cable...


----------



## jrp

Ilushka85 said:


> I'm just trying to understand what I should expect once all my gear arrives including lumagen, nz9, and trinnov


At this point the JVC NZ series production software needs work for the HDMI input.

If you do have have an issue with the Radiance Pro driving the NZ series projector, please email me at the lumagen.com support email and I can send you the link to the NZ series software that we know works with the Radiance Pro on all units NZ series projectors it has been tested with.

There is a small difference in laser dimming with the "near production" preproduction release, and I recommend against laser dimming do to it creating some artifacts. For HDR when using the Radiance Pro for DTM you should definitely not use the laser dimming as it works against the DTM.

=== 

We have a Trinnov Altitude 16 in the Lumagen demo theater and it works well with the audio only output at 720p. There is one known case in the field that a customer with a Trinnov had better results with an audio plus video output to a Trinnov. The other variable is if you have the old Trinnov HDMI input card as we do (seven inputs) or the new Trinnov HDMI input card (eight inputs), which from all reports is much better than the original 4k Trinnov input card.

If you have the seven input Trinnov HDMI input card, make sure to use only input 6 and/or 7.

Contact me at the lumagen.com support email and if you like we can set up a phone call to discuss.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> Wow! Really? You obviously have not read my previous posts on this topic.
> 
> The Radiance Pro outputs have the lowest jitter and lowest electrical noise of any HDMI product out there (to the best of our knowledge). They do have faster edge rates and we believe more output EQ than some other products. However, using the $200k defacto industry standard Tektronix HDMI tester, all Radiance Pro outputs are well within the HDMI electrical specifications, including the 720p audio only output. This is quantitative data based on the best HDMI tester on the market. The issue is not with the Radiance Pro output.
> 
> Saying that 720p audio only is a "design flaw" shows a lack of understanding of the HDMI specification. AVRs and audio processors are required by the HDMI specification to correctly support all audio formats with a 720p signal. Not doing this well is an issue in the audio processor, not the Radiance Pro. I should point out that many audio processors are designed well and work fine with the 720p audio only output from the Radiance Pro.
> 
> The suggestion of using an audio plus video output is to work-around issues in some audio processor.


Why does the RP have high edge rates? Is this something intentional, is there a benefit or is it just how it is with this particular chip and it’s in spec so should ok?

I know others have said this many times on here, but those with audio drop issues have a wide range or AVR’s, all that I remember have no issue with any source until the RP is added. The high edge rates are offered as an explanation, and that the other vendors like Denon, Trinnov, Arcam , Marantz etc have bad input design and can’t handle it. But surely, if all these other vendors work well with each other but don’t work well with the lumagen, then there must be something that lumagen can do to be more compatible.

In my case I’m using my AVR as the switch and since that I’ve not had 1 drop, when the RP is in the audio chain I have one per movie.. would a card with a lower edge rate be an option? Would we lose something doing that? Perhaps this is what we’d get with the new 1080 audio out ?


----------



## Nima

jrp said:


> For HDR when using the Radiance Pro for DTM you should definitely not use the laser dimming as it works against the DTM.


So do not use DD ever with Lumagen DTM? Thats only for the preproduction DD or for DD with JVC NZ in general? I have an Epson LS10K at the moment and use DD with Lumagen DTM.

Curious for why this recommendation.

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## jrp

ShadeRF said:


> Interesting about the issues with the NZ series. I've had some occasional dropouts since I got my RS3100 but only when watching content on my Nvidia Shield (via plex). I haven't had a single dropout from my Oppo 203. I was just thinking I might need to change out my HDMI cable...


The JVC RS (a.k.a. NX) series projectors have excellent HDMI inputs with no issues with the Radiance Pro outputs. So, likely looking into better HDMI cables is in your future. Note: It could be the cable between the Shield and the Pro if it is the only source you are having issues with. 

I am now all-in on using 3-meter passive 18 GHz certified HDMI cables. I call this the "Goldilocks solution." That is the "porridge is just right" by which I mean the 3-meter passive HDMI length has the optimal amount of cable attenuation for 4k systems.

I like the Tributaries UHDP 3-meter cable since they are excellent both electrically and mechanically and have a good cable-retention design. The AVPro Store passive HDMI bullet train are also good cables. For the long run to the projector I recommend the Tributaries UHDV or the AVPro Store Bullet Train fiber cables. There are other good HDMI cables, but there are also a lot of not so good HDMI cables. I can say that people who stick to my recommended cables, in the vast majority of cases, do not have HDMI connection issues.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> So do not use DD ever with Lumagen DTM? Thats only for the preproduction DD or for DD with JVC NZ in general? I have an Epson LS10K at the moment and use DD with Lumagen DTM.
> 
> Curious for why this recommendation.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


IMO Laser Dimming should only be considered for SDR sources. I did try laser-dimming with our RS4500 JVC for SDR, but in the end it created some artifacts, and I am very sensitive to artifacts. So, I do not use laser-dimming even for SDR content.

For HDR, the Radiance Pro DTM is processing the image to insure the optimal transfer function for a projector with a constant output level. In my evaluation on the RS4500, laser dimming counter-acted the Radiance Pro DTM's attempt to have the optimal transfer function.

You may find that laser dimming at a low enough setting may be to your liking. Your theater, your preference, rules here.


----------



## appelz

Ilushka85 said:


> This seems like a pretty big flaw in the design in the 4xxx and 5348. You mentioned 4xxx and 444x above. Are the 42 and 44 different in any way in this regard?


Semantics to those who do experience audio dropouts, but the flaw is actually with the AVR's. They should happily accept the 720p signal from the Lumagen, but some don't meet HDMI specs.

EDIT : I see Jim handled this thoroughly !


----------



## ShadeRF

jrp said:


> The JVC RS (a.k.a. NX) series projectors have excellent HDMI inputs with no issues with the Radiance Pro outputs. So, likely looking into better HDMI cables is in your future. Note: It could be the cable between the Shield and the Pro if it is the only source you are having issues with.
> 
> I am now all-in on using 3-meter passive 18 GHz certified HDMI cables. I call this the "Goldilocks solution." That is the "porridge is just right" by which I mean the 3-meter passive HDMI length has the optimal amount of cable attenuation for 4k systems.
> 
> I like the Tributaries UHDP 3-meter cable since they are excellent both electrically and mechanically and have a good cable-retention design. The AVPro Store passive HDMI bullet train are also good cables. For the long run to the projector I recommend the Tributaries UHDV or the AVPro Store Bullet Train fiber cables. There are other good HDMI cables, but there are also a lot of not so good HDMI cables. I can say that people who stick to my recommended cables, in the vast majority of cases, do not have HDMI connection issues.


Thanks, I'll check those Tributaries out. For what it's worth I had no issues with the RS3000 and only started when I got the RS3100 (NZ8). My setup runs source -> Marantz -> Lumagen -> Projector.


----------



## jrp

ShadeRF said:


> Thanks, I'll check those Tributaries out. For what it's worth I had no issues with the RS3000 and only started when I got the RS3100 (NZ8). My setup runs source -> Marantz -> Lumagen -> Projector.


Contact us at the lumagen.com support email if you want to try the preproduction NZ8 pre-production software release which in our testing works with the Radiance Pro.


----------



## bjorg

I've been doing quite a bit of automation using the RadiancePro over the past year. So far, most has been purpose-specific, but it finally dawned on me that a more generic solution is withing sight.

Using a RaspberryPi, the Lumagen could become network controllable, as well as gain a UI for some operations. Here's what I have in mind:

Provide a UI for configuring labels (see below).
Provide a UI for controlling the menu (menu on/off, up, down, left, right, enter).
Provide a log of commands sent and messages received over the COM/USB port (for diagnostics).
Provide a UI for sending custom commands.
Provide a Telnet-to-COM/USB bridge for enabling control over the network.

I'm curious if anyone would find this useful. If you're automation is already working, you'd need to redo it to use Telnet instead of the COM port. The commands would stay the same though.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Really this


bjorg said:


> I've been doing quite a bit of automation using the RadiancePro over the past year. So far, most has been purpose-specific, but it finally dawned on me that a more generic solution is withing sight.
> 
> Using a RaspberryPi, the Lumagen could become network controllable, as well as gain a UI for some operations. Here's what I have in mind:
> 
> Provide a UI for configuring labels (see below).
> Provide a UI for controlling the menu (menu on/off, up, down, left, right, enter).
> Provide a log of commands sent and messages received over the COM/USB port (for diagnostics).
> Provide a UI for sending custom commands.
> Provide a Telnet-to-COM/USB bridge for enabling control over the network.
> 
> I'm curious if anyone would find this useful. If you're automation is already working, you'd need to redo it to use Telnet instead of the COM port. The commands would stay the same though.
> 
> View attachment 3210362


I happen to have a spare raspberry pi 4. My whole home is automated with home assistant.

would be happy to give this a go


----------



## DigitalAV

bjorg said:


> I've been doing quite a bit of automation using the RadiancePro over the past year. So far, most has been purpose-specific, but it finally dawned on me that a more generic solution is withing sight.
> 
> Using a RaspberryPi, the Lumagen could become network controllable, as well as gain a UI for some operations. Here's what I have in mind:
> 
> Provide a UI for configuring labels (see below).
> Provide a UI for controlling the menu (menu on/off, up, down, left, right, enter).
> Provide a log of commands sent and messages received over the COM/USB port (for diagnostics).
> Provide a UI for sending custom commands.
> Provide a Telnet-to-COM/USB bridge for enabling control over the network.
> 
> I'm curious if anyone would find this useful. If you're automation is already working, you'd need to redo it to use Telnet instead of the COM port. The commands would stay the same though.
> 
> View attachment 3210362


Love this idea


----------



## Hawks07

jrp said:


> The JVC RS (a.k.a. NX) series projectors have excellent HDMI inputs with no issues with the Radiance Pro outputs. So, likely looking into better HDMI cables is in your future. Note: It could be the cable between the Shield and the Pro if it is the only source you are having issues with.
> 
> I am now all-in on using 3-meter passive 18 GHz certified HDMI cables. I call this the "Goldilocks solution." That is the "porridge is just right" by which I mean the 3-meter passive HDMI length has the optimal amount of cable attenuation for 4k systems.
> 
> I like the Tributaries UHDP 3-meter cable since they are excellent both electrically and mechanically and have a good cable-retention design. The AVPro Store passive HDMI bullet train are also good cables. For the long run to the projector I recommend the Tributaries UHDV or the AVPro Store Bullet Train fiber cables. There are other good HDMI cables, but there are also a lot of not so good HDMI cables. I can say that people who stick to my recommended cables, in the vast majority of cases, do not have HDMI connection issues.


So do you recommend using the Tributaries from the sources to the Lumagen, from output to AVR/display or both?


----------



## audioguy

Help.

I've left a message with Lumagen on this subject but they are apparently tied up. I worked with Jim Peterson over the phone last evening on resetting my Lumagen to remove the calibration pieces until I get my new NZ9 calibrated. BUT, I must have done something wrong since I now have no audio on any source, and combing through the manual has not helped.

Where and how do I get audio re-enabled?


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

appelz said:


> Semantics to those who do experience audio dropouts, but the flaw is actually with the AVR's. They should happily accept the 720p signal from the Lumagen, but some don't meet HDMI specs.
> 
> EDIT : I see Jim handled this thoroughly !


Has he though? This comes up a lot, and it’s not like we’re building our own AVR’s using components from RadioShack. The same shade is thrown towards every other piece of equipment in the rack, but it doesn’t help anyone.

The AVR’s people have problems with though vary from mainstream to boutique, Denon to Trinnov. They work without issue with everything from cheap streaming devices to high-end systems. In fact you can use cheap cables that are a foot long and not have an issue.

The user with the Trinnov who is being used as an example here afaik thought the audio+video was helping for a day or so before it actually made things worse.

What ive never been able to understand is why you can have an AVR that has had many devices connected to it, AppleTV’s , Zappiti, Games Consoles, Cable boxes etc etc.. with no issues, but then adding the lumagen causes a problem, and the AVR is blamed. If an Apple TV can connect to these AVR’s without issue why can’t the RP? Maybe the AVR is fragile, so why not work to a level where you don’t cause a problem with it like all the other vendors???


----------



## jrp

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Why does the RP have high edge rates? Is this something intentional, is there a benefit or is it just how it is with this particular chip and it’s in spec so should ok?


The HDMI chips vendor determines the HDMI output chip characteristics. I asked long ago for the ability to control the output edge rates. The vendor responded saying "no" and that the outputs meet HDMI specification (which they do). So, the output edge rate is not under our control, but it is well within the specifications and works very well with correctly designed HDMI inputs.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> The HDMI chips vendor determines the HDMI output chip characteristics. I asked long ago for the ability to control the output edge rates. The vendor responded saying "no" and that the outputs meet HDMI specification (which they do). So, the output edge rate is not under our control, but it is well within the specifications and works very well with correctly designed HDMI inputs.


Have you not considered using a different vendor that has better compatibility? , it’s not like it’s one user here and you must be sick of having this debate by now. Sure there are many who don’t have a problem, but there’s enough that do


----------



## patcub

Figured I'd chime in on what helped my audio drop out issues recently. I've only had my Radiance Pro 4242 for about a month and a half and have mostly used it with either my Apple TV 4K or my Roku Ultra as the source. Neither had any issues as far as audio goes, and I usually watch my 4K movies through Plex or Infuse on the Apple TV (Infuse is awesome for those of us who have a 2.35:1 screen because you can move the subtitle position up so they are visible when the black bars get cut off the screen). I have my components chained as source->Radiance Pro->Output 1 with audio sent to my Denon S930H AVR and Output 2 with video sent to my JVC RS2000. I purchased a bunch of 4K blu-rays on Black Friday and have started watching them through my Panasonic UB420, also hooked up to an input on the Lumagen as described above. The first couple of times I watched Iron Man in 4K on the Panasonic I started having the audio dropout issue others have described here, with it occurring every 10 minutes or so for about a second or two. Not a complete show stopper but definitely annoying.

I believe I have fixed the issue at least for my situation by turning on frame rate match for the input and output. When I was looking through the radiance pro settings I realized I was outputting everything as 4K @ 60Hz, so when I was playing a UHD that is outputting at 24Hz, the Lumagen was doing the conversion to 60Hz and probably doing a 3:2 pulldown. I'm not an expert by any means but once I changed the Lumagen output to frame match the 24Hz from the Panasonic I haven't had a single audio dropout on any disc I've watched, including re-watching that Iron Man disc. I'm guessing it had something to do with the frames that were occasionally being dropped by the frame rate conversion. This solution does add a couple seconds delay when the HDMI needs to sync to a new resolution or framerate, but well worth it in my opinion to get rid of the audio drop out issue.


----------



## fatherom

patcub said:


> The first couple of times I watched Iron Man in 4K on the Panasonic I started having the audio dropout issue others have described here, with it occurring every 10 minutes or so for about a second or two. Not a complete show stopper but definitely annoying.


To me, having audio drop outs of any kind is pretty close to 'show stopper' level.

I'm glad the frame rate setting seemed to help your issues, but I've been using the proper frame rate all along, and still get audio drop outs (about 2 per movie, on average)...so I use the second hdmi out (audio only out) on my Oppo and Sony blu-ray players.


----------



## Ilushka85

fatherom said:


> To me, having audio drop outs of any kind is pretty close to 'show stopper' level.
> 
> I'm glad the frame rate setting seemed to help your issues, but I've been using the proper frame rate all along, and still get audio drop outs (about 2 per movie, on average)...so I use the second hdmi out (audio only out) on my Oppo and Sony blu-ray players.



Hearing that this is occurring this regularly and for so many people has me concerned as I just bought this and this is what I have to look forward to.


----------



## Craig Peer

Ilushka85 said:


> Hearing that this is occurring this regularly and for so many people has me concerned as I just bought this and this is what I have to look forward to.


I just send audio directly to my audio processor and video to the Lumagen - no dropouts in a long time. The only exception is a legacy cable TV HDMI feed, which strangely enough never has audio dropouts.


----------



## Karl Maga

Ilushka85 said:


> Hearing that this is occurring this regularly and for so many people has me concerned as I just bought this and this is what I have to look forward to.


I don’t have audio drops, and all of my sources are connected to the Radiance Pro. I can’t remember the last time I had a drop.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Ilushka85 said:


> Hearing that this is occurring this regularly and for so many people has me concerned as I just bought this and this is what I have to look forward to.


If you use your AVR as the switch, have the lumagen between the projector and AVR you should be fine. When I first had the issue a few folk messaged me advising that I set it up this way, it’s worked for me and others. You may find setting up the recommended way with audio out from the lumagen works for you, a lot of people seem to be ok that way, but as you’ve seen it can lead to problems for which there is no solution but a lot of blaming the other guy.. hopefully lumagen will one day address the problem with HDMI chips that have a lower edge rates..

(unless you’ve got one of the new JVC’s, in which case I hope JVC solve the issue their side otherwise that’s gonna be no fun)


----------



## Ilushka85

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> If you use your AVR as the switch, have the lumagen between the projector and AVR you should be fine. When I first had the issue a few folk messaged me advising that I set it up this way, it’s worked for me and others. You may find setting up the recommended way with audio out from the lumagen works for you, a lot of people seem to be ok that way, but as you’ve seen it can lead to problems for which there is no solution but a lot of blaming the other guy.. hopefully lumagen will one day address the problem with HDMI chips that have a lower edge rates..
> 
> (unless you’ve got one of the new JVC’s, in which case I hope JVC solve the issue their side otherwise that’s gonna be no fun)


I have one of the new jvc's enroute . Makes me question buying the lumagen and wondering if madvr users are having these issues as well.


----------



## aguy

May I ask again what the issues are with the new JVC? 

I had been considering replacing my Sony 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hawks07

Ilushka85 said:


> Hearing that this is occurring this regularly and for so many people has me concerned as I just bought this and this is what I have to look forward to.


Me too, I just got mine today and not looking forward to possibly having to deal with this.


----------



## Clark Burk

I really think between Lumagen and JVC that if any issues arise they will get top priority in getting a fix. Both companies realize that many owners have both products and having compatibility is a BIG necessity.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> To me, having audio drop outs of any kind is pretty close to 'show stopper' level.
> 
> I'm glad the frame rate setting seemed to help your issues, but I've been using the proper frame rate all along, and still get audio drop outs (about 2 per movie, on average)...so I use the second hdmi out (audio only out) on my Oppo and Sony blu-ray players.


I'm getting one or two as well. Unfortunately my setup requires the RP ahead of my MC-10 but I am beginning to wonder what would happen if I replace the RP with a matrix switch (and then put the RP after the MC-10).


----------



## DigitalAV

Definitely don't begrudge Lumagen for having to deal with the inherently awful HDMI & HDCP specs -- even the interconnect itself is just the worst. For us 4XXX (18G) owners a saving grace for anyone with audio drops would be to grab a 9 GHz output card which allows audio+video (B) for the audio output, then the video output will be getting a post-pipeline upgrade for 4k60-420 that should be all but indistinguishable from 18 GHz 4k60-422. 5348 owners can't change their output cards (one big board) but are no doubt still under warranty & should continue to work with support if they have problems. Anyway that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.


----------



## sjschaff

patcub said:


> Figured I'd chime in on what helped my audio drop out issues recently. I've only had my Radiance Pro 4242 for about a month and a half and have mostly used it with either my Apple TV 4K or my Roku Ultra as the source. Neither had any issues as far as audio goes, and I usually watch my 4K movies through Plex or Infuse on the Apple TV (Infuse is awesome for those of us who have a 2.35:1 screen because you can move the subtitle position up so they are visible when the black bars get cut off the screen). I have my components chained as source->Radiance Pro->Output 1 with audio sent to my Denon S930H AVR and Output 2 with video sent to my JVC RS2000. I purchased a bunch of 4K blu-rays on Black Friday and have started watching them through my Panasonic UB420, also hooked up to an input on the Lumagen as described above. The first couple of times I watched Iron Man in 4K on the Panasonic I started having the audio dropout issue others have described here, with it occurring every 10 minutes or so for about a second or two. Not a complete show stopper but definitely annoying.
> 
> I believe I have fixed the issue at least for my situation by turning on frame rate match for the input and output. When I was looking through the radiance pro settings I realized I was outputting everything as 4K @ 60Hz, so when I was playing a UHD that is outputting at 24Hz, the Lumagen was doing the conversion to 60Hz and probably doing a 3:2 pulldown. I'm not an expert by any means but once I changed the Lumagen output to frame match the 24Hz from the Panasonic I haven't had a single audio dropout on any disc I've watched, including re-watching that Iron Man disc. I'm guessing it had something to do with the frames that were occasionally being dropped by the frame rate conversion. This solution does add a couple seconds delay when the HDMI needs to sync to a new resolution or framerate, but well worth it in my opinion to get rid of the audio drop out issue.


So, you must not have set up a custom mode on output. In my case, using the 5348, I set mode as custom 3. This should automatically select the appropriate output resolution. For your 4242 I believe this should be reflected as Auto 2 for Output 2 going to your projector. With this 24p in and out if the projector supports this. Just use your remote Output...Output setup to view your current setting for Mode to confirm.


----------



## ShadeRF

I seem to have fixed my Nvidia Shield dropouts on the RS3100 (NZ8) by turning genlock off on the Lumagen. Was able to watch an entire movie without a dropout. It was happening every few minutes before switching it off. Hopefully, that's all it was.


----------



## fatherom

Craig Peer said:


> I just send audio directly to my audio processor and video to the Lumagen - no dropouts in a long time. The only exception is a legacy cable TV HDMI feed, which strangely enough never has audio dropouts.


This doesn't work for something like an Apple TV (which only has one HDMI out), plus the benefit of routing all video/audio through the lumagen (supposedly running the audio through the lumagen results in lower jitter).


----------



## jrp

Hawks07 said:


> So do you recommend using the Tributaries from the sources to the Lumagen, from output to AVR/display or both?


For source to Radiance Pro, and Radiance Pro to the audio processor I recommend 3-meter Tributaries UHDP, or AVPro store Bullet Train passive HDMI cables. While I do not like the Monoprice 3-meter 18 GHz passive mechanically speaking (no surprise given their price), they do appear to be good cables electrically for signal quality. There are other good passive HDMI cables, such as the Velox passive.

For the long run from the Radiance Pro to the projector I recommend 18 GHz (not 48 GHz due to their faster output edge rates) active cables from either Tributaries (UHDV), or AVPro Store (Bullet Train). The 18 GHz RUIPRO from amazon.com (again avoid the 48 GHz active cables from the Pro to the a projector) is a good fiber cable and we have a lot of Radiance Pro customers using this cable successfully. I recommend against wired CAT Baluns and against "fiber baluns" that can be terminated in the field (the ones that have transmitter "boxes" and receiver "boxes") in the field seem to have too many issues. I had high hopes for the "fiber baluns" but so far the feed back from the field (with or without a Radiance Pro) is keeping me from being able to recommend them.


----------



## jrp

ShadeRF said:


> I seem to have fixed my Nvidia Shield dropouts on the RS3100 (NZ8) by turning genlock off on the Lumagen. Was able to watch an entire movie without a dropout. It was happening every few minutes before switching it off. Hopefully, that's all it was.


Thanks for posting this information. 

Genlock uses a "Genlock Chip" which is a Phase-Locked-Loop (PLL) chip specifically designed for video Genlock applications. This PLL chip needs to change the output clock frequency by a very small amount on a regular basis to keep the the input and output frames in lock-step so there is never a dropped or repeated frame. Most equipment can tolerate these small steps in clock frequency, but not all. 

From time to time disabling Genlock fixes issues with video and/or audio and I am glad you figured this out and posted. This is also why I recommend not using Genlock unless you are sensitive to an occasional frame drop or repeat.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Isn’t there a solution to this? It’s been noted that moving the lumagen out of the audio path and between the processor output and projector input, fixes it. 

For those with that issue why not just do that? I mean people say “madvr” doesn’t have this audio issue. Well neither does the lumagen if you hook it up like the madvr.


----------



## jrp

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Have you not considered using a different vendor that has better compatibility? , it’s not like it’s one user here and you must be sick of having this debate by now. Sure there are many who don’t have a problem, but there’s enough that do


That ship sailed more than seven years ago. I tried to connect with Panasonic back then to use their HDMI chips, but got the door slammed in my face due to our niche market. The only chips available to us were from Silicon Image (now Lattice). Changing chips after that would be like changing horses mid-stream. We would have two independent set of HDMI issues to deal with. While we had to spend a lot of time working through the HDMI issues with the chips we use, we completed that work years ago. New devices sometimes bring up new HDMI issues for us to deal with, but for perhaps one exception the HDMI issues we have fixed in the past few years have been provably in the other devices not implementing HDMI correctly. Patrick has worked around the ones he can, and we communicate with the other company about their issues if we cannot work around them. One example is Zappiti. We reported several things to them so they could work on their HDMI output software.

The 9 and 18 GHz output chips we use are within the HDMI electrical specification, based on testing with the industry defacto-standard Tektronix HDMI tester. This is a quantitative analysis against the HDMI specification, and not wishful thinking. The Tektronix HDMI tester is one of only a couple deices approved by the HDMI organization for this testing.

HDMI outputs can be tested for compliance with the HDMI specification. However, confirming compliance for HDMI inputs for electrical characteristics is not so easy. About the only quantitative electrical test would be to use a differential-time-domain-reflectometer (D-TDR) to check the single-ended and differential transmission-line impedances, and check how bad the discontinuities are in the single-ended and differential transmission-line impedances, in the destination device-under-test input from the connector to, and including, the HDMI chip input pin. I would love to have a D-TDR, but do not.

Really the only practical test is as follows: Every HDMI input needs to work reliably with every HDMI output that is within the HDMI specification, up to their rated maximum. The Radiance Pro output is within the HDMI electrical output specification as shown by the Tektronix HDMI tester. So, the Radiance Pro is the test generator. If an input does not work with the test generator, it does not conform to the HDMI specification. Simple. One does have to account for the HDMI cable, but I think you see my point. This isn't "blaming the other guy," this is engineering quantitative analysis.


----------



## jrp

Maybe just a timing thing, but based on a couple posts above it might have been missed that I have a "very near production" JVC NZ series software load I can send a link for that works fine with all Radiance Pro models. I am told the only changes between this NZ series pre-production release and the production release are the HDMI input changes, and a tweak to laser-dimming. You put the release on a USB memory stick and plug it into the JVC. The JVC sees you did this and gives instructions.

If you load this preproduction release on your NZ series projector you should not have any issues using the Radiance Pro output, along with a good HDMI cable.

Email me at the lumagen.com support email and I can send you the link.


----------



## mikela

I tried the preproduction FW on my RS4100 and my problems went away.

Thanks Jim!


----------



## rhiannon.eldridge

I assume there are no plans for a HDMI 2.1 based Radiance? A couple of inputs and 2 outputs would be plenty - with my setup I could get away with a single input and single output. Doesn't necessarily need to be 8K input capable, although that'd be nice.

It'd be nice to offload the scaling, tonemapping, etc to a dedicated box. I'm planning on making a DIY Envy using a PC and VideoProcessor but it's not very user friendly.

The main benefit I see of a Radiance over my DIY solution or the other competitor is latency - an FPGA can simply do things quicker than a full fat PC based solution due to the much lower overhead.

I'm guessing the main technical things that would stop a HDMI 2.1 Radiance from being viable are...
1. Finding decent HDMI 2.1 chips that work
2. Finding an FPGA with enough grunt to run all the processing at such a high resolution (or refresh rate for 4K 120)


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

HDMI 2.1 is really no benefit other than for gamers.


----------



## jrp

rhiannon.eldridge:

We are evaluating if we should do a product that can support 4k120 in and out, and 8k. Any such product would be a long way out.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> To me, having audio drop outs of any kind is pretty close to 'show stopper' level.
> 
> I'm glad the frame rate setting seemed to help your issues, but I've been using the proper frame rate all along, and still get audio drop outs (about 2 per movie, on average)...so I use the second hdmi out (audio only out) on my Oppo and Sony blu-ray players.


I do not recall how much we have communicated about your audio issues. I am willing to take another crack at resolving these if you would like. If you want to try email me at the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## markmon1

jrp said:


> There is a small difference in laser dimming with the "near production" preproduction release, and I recommend against laser dimming do to it creating some artifacts. For HDR when using the Radiance Pro for DTM you should definitely not use the laser dimming as it works against the DTM.


This seems like a big, huge bummer, IMO. Laser dimming is not really related to tone mapping. Laser dimming is about bringing the black floor inline when the scene has low APL. It's not about lowering brightness of a scene that is on the verge of being too dark. Tone mapping should handle all that. I really don't feel like laser dimming and dynamic tone mapping are related at all. They're just two different things.

I can tell you right now after that demo I had with Kris and you here with the NZ9 where Kris kept toggling the laser dimming on / off and saying "see, that's what I mean". All I could think was "wow that space is so damned grey, turn the laser dimming back on".


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> The 5348 Output 1, or Output 1 of a 4XXX that has an 18 GHz output card for Output 1 and 2, are driven by a second output port on the 18 GHz output chip that is limited to 720p audio only by the chip manufacturer. So, it will always be 720p audio only.
> 
> For the 5348, or the audio only output of an 18 GHz card on a 444X model, if you have issues with your audio processor with the 720p "audio only" output Lumagen recommends that you instead use Output 2 with both audio and video enabled to send audio to your 4k audio processor. This has resolved audio dropouts in a number of systems since the audio + video is running at the video output rate and so in the "sweet spot" of the AVR HDMI input design. There is at least one case of this only giving a "significant improvement" the audio dropouts, but in most cases I know about it has resolved audio dropouts.


worked temporarily for me before reverting back to type and getting drop outs every film


Ilushka85 said:


> Im just trying to understand what I should expect once all my gear arrives including lumagen, nz9, and trinnov


If you’re lucky you’ll be fine, if you’re not, you’ll have dropouts. Crazy to think we’re relying on luck here….


Craig Peer said:


> I just send audio directly to my audio processor and video to the Lumagen - no dropouts in a long time. The only exception is a legacy cable TV HDMI feed, which strangely enough never has audio dropouts.


Same for me, no dropouts in 6 weeks since I removed the lumagen out of the audio chain.


----------



## ahmedhaff

bobof said:


> I think it usually remembers two different sets of settings for the two different EDIDs, which means you have to go through the menus on each option to set it up as you like. You will make it more reliable also if you set the input up to have fixed audio EDIDs instead of the passback behaviour.
> 
> Good luck!


So I’ve had this working for a while and I do like it a lot better than the upscalping in ATV4K. One issue I’m having is that on memB, everything defaults to 59.94hz (content that normally plays at 23.98 on memA). I’ve done Menu 0872 (I thought that was universal), but no luck.

any thoughts?


----------



## bobof

ahmedhaff said:


> So I’ve had this working for a while and I do like it a lot better than the upscalping in ATV4K. One issue I’m having is that on memB, everything defaults to 59.94hz (content that normally plays at 23.98 on memA). I’ve done Menu 0872 (I thought that was universal), but no luck.
> 
> any thoughts?


Have you checked the AppleTV still has Match Rate enabled? AppleTV4k will remember this setting for each of the EDIDs I think, most of the time. So even if you set it for 4K, you might have to set it also for 1080p.


----------



## Clark Burk

I get the feeling this HDMI discussion ends up being a finger pointing exercise between manufacturers. If you have a big company you can get the other players to bend the rules to accommodate you even if it means some other smaller companies will be inconvenienced. 
It sounds like JVC made some accommodations in it‘s software HDMI to play better with certain other equipment. This made the LRP not work optimally. I take this to mean JVC is bending the HDMI rules a bit. Hopefully this can be sorted out.


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> Maybe just a timing thing, but based on a couple posts above it might have been missed that I have a "very near production" JVC NZ series software load I can send a link for that works fine with all Radiance Pro models. I am told the only changes between this NZ series pre-production release and the production release are the HDMI input changes, and a tweak to laser-dimming. You put the release on a USB memory stick and plug it into the JVC. The JVC sees you did this and gives instructions.
> 
> If you load this preproduction release on your NZ series projector you should not have any issues using the Radiance Pro output, along with a good HDMI cable.
> 
> Email me at the lumagen.com support email and I can send you the link.


That's all well and good but I'd rather remove the Lumagen from the chain then downgrade JVC Firmware. What am I missing.....there are problems with it driving the RS3100 so it can't go after the AVP but if you put it before the AVP then audio dropouts? I have to reconsider my options.


----------



## fatherom

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Isn’t there a solution to this? It’s been noted that moving the lumagen out of the audio path and between the processor output and projector input, fixes it.
> 
> For those with that issue why not just do that? I mean people say “madvr” doesn’t have this audio issue. Well neither does the lumagen if you hook it up like the madvr.


Multiple reasons...many like to use the lumagen as the hdmi switcher (all source devices connected to Lumagen first) - this lets you have separate input configs for each device, easily. Also, supposedly the Lumagen deals with audio jitter, so it can be good to have the Lumagen in the audio path, as long as you don't get dropouts.


----------



## Kris Deering

markmon1 said:


> This seems like a big, huge bummer, IMO. Laser dimming is not really related to tone mapping. Laser dimming is about bringing the black floor inline when the scene has low APL. It's not about lowering brightness of a scene that is on the verge of being too dark. Tone mapping should handle all that. I really don't feel like laser dimming and dynamic tone mapping are related at all. They're just two different things.
> 
> I can tell you right now after that demo I had with Kris and you here with the NZ9 where Kris kept toggling the laser dimming on / off and saying "see, that's what I mean". All I could think was "wow that space is so damned grey, turn the laser dimming back on".


If you don't think laser dimming has any impact on the image other than lowering the black floor, you obviously weren't paying attention when we were at your house. I had Dave Vaughn here the other night to demonstrate the JVC to and showed him a few different scenes with the laser dimming. He couldn't believe how much it compromised the image with quite a few different pieces of content I showed. We both agreed that we liked black outs much better with the dimming on, but the compromises elsewhere were VERY obvious. You seem to focus on one thing, black, and don't care what it does to other parts of the image. I think if we could have actually gotten video to work even somewhat reliably in your setup and had more time to look at it, you would have seen a lot more issues. But even getting video to work at your house properly was a task. 

I am very interested to hear people's thoughts on laser dimming as more JVCs get out there. I think a lot of people will like it, especially if they are not comparing it directly on and off. But I think quite a few people will have issues with the artifacts like I do. The nice thing is everyone has the choice to either turn it on or off.


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> There is a small difference in laser dimming with the "near production" preproduction release, and I recommend against laser dimming do to it creating some artifacts. For HDR when using the Radiance Pro for DTM you should definitely not use the laser dimming as it works against the DTM.


Jim does this hold true for Dynamic Dimming on the X series also? Can you please explain a bit more on how the Lumagen DTM works against laser dimming and dynamic dimming if that is affected in the same way?


----------



## markmon1

Kris Deering said:


> If you don't think laser dimming has any impact on the image other than lowering the black floor, you obviously weren't paying attention when we were at your house. I had Dave Vaughn here the other night to demonstrate the JVC to and showed him a few different scenes with the laser dimming. He couldn't believe how much it compromised the image with quite a few different pieces of content I showed. We both agreed that we liked black outs much better with the dimming on, but the compromises elsewhere were VERY obvious. You seem to focus on one thing, black, and don't care what it does to other parts of the image. I think if we could have actually gotten video to work even somewhat reliably in your setup and had more time to look at it, you would have seen a lot more issues. But even getting video to work at your house properly was a task.
> 
> I am very interested to hear people's thoughts on laser dimming as more JVCs get out there. I think a lot of people will like it, especially if they are not comparing it directly on and off. But I think quite a few people will have issues with the artifacts like I do. The nice thing is everyone has the choice to either turn it on or off.


I never said, "laser dimming doesn't have any impact on the image other than lowering the black floor". I said, "laser dimming doesn't have any impact on dynamic HDR tone mapping". I do care what laser dimming does to the rest of the image, but I care about having a grey background that should be black far more. And I'm not alone in this. 

Whatever laser dimming is doing, it's doing it to both HDR and SDR alike. It's not unique to dynamic tone mapping.


----------



## Kris Deering

markmon1 said:


> I never said, "laser dimming doesn't have any impact on the image other than lowering the black floor". I said, "laser dimming doesn't have any impact on dynamic HDR tone mapping". I do care what laser dimming does to the rest of the image, but I care about having a grey background that should be black far more. And I'm not alone in this.
> 
> Whatever laser dimming is doing, it's doing it to both HDR and SDR alike. It's not unique to dynamic tone mapping.


But it DOES have an effect on dynamic tone mapping as it clamps most of the highlights and exhibits clipping. You spent about 3-5 minutes looking at content at the most while we were there, and most of it wasn't even proper HDR because we couldn't get your PC to send it properly (it kept converting to SDR 709). I've spent MONTHS now looking at this projector with an abundance of sources that work properly and can EASILY demonstrate its pros and cons without all the hassles. But by all means, continue to push a narrative based on your few minutes of experience. What in the world would I know about any of this.


----------



## markmon1

Kris Deering said:


> But it DOES have an effect on dynamic tone mapping as it clamps most of the highlights and exhibits clipping.


And it doesn't do any of this on SDR? Only HDR that is tone mapped dynamically through the lumagen?


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> I get the feeling this HDMI discussion ends up being a finger pointing exercise between manufacturers. If you have a big company you can get the other players to bend the rules to accommodate you even if it means some other smaller companies will be inconvenienced.
> It sounds like JVC made some accommodations in it‘s software HDMI to play better with certain other equipment. This made the LRP not work optimally. I take this to mean JVC is bending the HDMI rules a bit. Hopefully this can be sorted out.


In the time before release JVC released two different HDMI firmware updated. One was to address issues with the Xbox Series X and one was for issues with a Marantz processor. After the first, I get an occasional one frame glitch that looks like it goes green/pink for a flash. This sometimes takes days to manifest, sometimes hours and sometimes it happens every 15-20 minutes. It is VERY inconsistent. If I revert firmware to before JVC made the changes, it doesn't happen at all. This ALSO happens with the Murideo test pattern generator, as it happened when I was doing a calibration for a client two days ago. So it is not just the Lumagen. Since it is very random in nature, this may happen with quite a few different sources, we won't know until there is more of the new models out there and people are connecting different sources to them and spending enough time. When I got the 1.2 firmware from JVC, it took almost 3 days before I saw any glitches, so I thought it was likely fixed. This is a 2.1 HDMI input. Nearly EVERY manufacturer that has done a 2.1 input has had issues and done firmware updates. I am not surprised at all that JVC is in the same boat. They are aware of the issue and are interested in testing the projector with a Lumagen to try and get a fix. They are just focused right now on the launch, so they haven't gotten to it yet.


----------



## Kris Deering

markmon1 said:


> And it doesn't do any of this on SDR? Only HDR that is tone mapped dynamically through the lumagen?


It does the same thing with SDR. The laser dimming has issues with extremely low APL content that is near black with highlights and bright fine detail. It is extremely obvious when you A/B it with the laser dimming on or off, which can be done by bringing up ANY OSD from the JVC (bringing up any menu will instantly defeat the laser dimming). Again, extremely easy to demonstrate.


----------



## markmon1

Kris Deering said:


> It does the same thing with SDR. The laser dimming has issues with extremely low APL content that is near black with highlights and bright fine detail. It is extremely obvious when you A/B it with the laser dimming on or off, which can be done by bringing up ANY OSD from the JVC (bringing up any menu will instantly defeat the laser dimming). Again, extremely easy to demonstrate.


Thank you. And yes, I've never been disputing whether or not what you're saying is true. Instead, I've been saying I really don't care enough about those artifacts to disable it. 

But the fact that it "does the same thing with SDR" has been my point. And it's the only reason why this is being discussed here, in this thread. The laser dimming works independently of the HDR tone mapping. Whatever the laser dimming does (beneficial or detrimental) is done on HDR and SDR. Therefore, whether one has laser dimming on or off is not really relevant to HDR tone mapping. It is relevant to the overall result of the picture. But many are going to be ok with these trade-offs. I'm one of them, and I promise you I'm not alone.


----------



## appelz

Karl Maga said:


> I don’t have audio drops, and all of my sources are connected to the Radiance Pro. I can’t remember the last time I had a drop.


I very rarely hear from clients about audio or video drops on the theaters that I have calibrated, which is somewhere around 60+ a year. The theater I am working on this week was experiencing audio and video drops yesterday, so this morning I reseated cables, and the problem persisted. I then replaced the brand new fiber cable from the Lumagen to the projector, and the system has been completely stable for several hours.


----------



## jrp

ahmedhaff said:


> So I’ve had this working for a while and I do like it a lot better than the upscaling in ATV4K. One issue I’m having is that on memB, everything defaults to 59.94hz (content that normally plays at 23.98 on memA). I’ve done Menu 0872 (I thought that was universal), but no luck.
> 
> any thoughts?


The direct codes are intended to help in simple setups, but if you need to have a different output setup for MEMB, you need to use the Output Setup Menu. The steps would vary depending on what you are trying to accomplish for MEMB.

You can email us at the lumagen.com support email and we can discuss this.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Jim does this hold true for Dynamic Dimming on the X series also? Can you please explain a bit more on how the Lumagen DTM works against laser dimming and dynamic dimming if that is affected in the same way?


Dynamic Dimming (DD), either with a dynamic iris, or laser dimming, has a shot at working well for SDR content. For SDR the grade is always to about 106 nits (I have heard numbers in the range of 104 to 108, and some studios may grade to a different light level). This makes it feasible to have a good DD system. However, I have not seen DD that works well enough for SDR content that I would use it. Others feel differently and do use DD.

If you look at the math involved for HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) with frame-by-frame adaptation, you will understand it is _not_ the case that DD will work optimally. DD does not comprehend what is happening due to DTM, and applies the dimming as if the content is straight SDR. I should note here that the Pro outputs "HDR in an SDR container." So the projector thinks it is getting SDR content. It is not. It is getting DTM processed HDR (all be it in an SDR container). The DTM is doing the "grading" as is done with SDR content, but to the light capability of the projector, the preferences of the viewer as set with the HDR Parameter menu, on a frame-by-frame basis. The DTM frame-by-frame "adaptation" makes this an even more untenable problem for DD.

When I was evaluating the RS4500 laser dimming (which is among the best available) in conjunction with the Radiance Pro DTM, I saw cases with laser dimming off that the scene would adapt as intended under DTM control, but with laser dimming on the laser dimming acted counter to what the DTM was trying to accomplish. I expect this would be a similar result with the RS2000/RS3000, but have not tested with those projectors. I actually suggested to JVC that they add a laser level control to allow the Radiance Pro to dynamically set the laser level using a vendor-specific HDMI Info Frame command. The Radiance Pro DTM could then add the laser level to its algorithmic transfer function adaptation. I was told this would not happen. It was worth a shot.

If JVC came up with a mode 3 that only affected dark scenes, and had a "light touch" to the laser level, I might change my mind. I have made this suggestion to JVC.

====

So what is one to do? I might be kicking the hornets nest, but here goes:

- I recommend DD off.

- Consider increasing the effective Gamma if dark scenes are not dark enough for you. You can use the Radiance Pro Gamma factor for this, but do this before calibration.

- If your blacks are not dark enough, reduce your light output using a manual iris if available. You can change a bulb from high to mid power. For a laser projector, if your black gets blacker when the laser is turned down (not true for all projectors) you can try that.

What? Less light?

More light is of course a good thing, but to me black is more important. Human vision adapts if the white is not as bright. However, in my opinion, black is more absolute and a blacker black is more important than a brighter white. A few months ago I took the anamorphic lens out of the Lumagen Demo Theater because of barrel distortion, which was due to a less than optimal throw-ratio. What I got was of course nice rectilinear picture edges as expected, but I also increased contrast from about 8400:1 to 9500:1 (which reduced the black level), and while white level went down, so did the black level. The combination of higher contrast, and a lower white level, combined to give a much improved black level. I am really liking the results even though we are only at 62 nits with mid-laser.

If you get the NZ9 with its much higher contrast than our RS4500, you can leave laser dimming off, use mid or high laser as desired, and use the manual iris to improve the already great contrast ratio even further. The much improved contrast ratio of the NZ9 gives you a larger playing field and you can keep a brighter white and still get a great black level. I recommend you do the optical and digital black adjustments as in my Radiance Pro setup slide set, and then use the iris and laser level as above. In other words you adjust for the absolute best black for your theater. IMO a brighter white level is not the primary goal. Optimizing black is.

It's your theater. Your preferences may differ from mine. If you like DD, use it. Certainly you can have a movie mode with a better black level, and a Game day mode with as much light output as possible maybe with DD on, and perhaps a TV in the evening mode.

====

Finally a comment on the black background in star field scenes:

For the starfield scenes I have looked at, the background is almost never true black (level 64 in10-bit HDR mode). For these, if you like, you can have a memory with the Lumagen input Black level adjusted down to the point where the background looks black. This crushes levels near black to black, but this is IMO a better option than DD for movies with these types of scenes. This is because DD tends to make everything in the scene darker. Mid-brightness objects that are, say 25 nits without DD, should stay at 25 nits with DD on. However, this is not the case for DD I have evaluated. Using the Black Level the small level change keeps mid-tones about where they should be and does not cause the detail-crush I see with DD.


----------



## Clark Burk

Wow, that is the way to answer a question. Thank you.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> I actually suggested to JVC that they add a laser level control to allow the Radiance Pro to dynamically set the laser level using a vendor-specific HDMI Info Frame command. The Radiance Pro DTM could then add the laser level to its algorithmic transfer function adaptation. I was told this would not happen. It was worth a shot.


I would instantly buy the first projector that does this


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I’m thinking you could control it with a simple script via Ethernet anyway.


----------



## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I’m thinking you could control it with a simple script via Ethernet anyway.


It has almost zero chance of working well enough, as you'd need to have frame accurate syncing between the control system and the display pipeline for it not to look like a hot mess, and there's no way to achieve that which I'm aware of over ethernet.

Not to mention the user-accessible laser dimming control available on these only has 3 levels and they can only set laser power to approx 100, 80 and 55%. So you'd have no dimming if you were already in laser level low, and minimal dimming in the other two modes. (see "LD POWER CMD DATA" http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/manual/RS4500_RS232_Command_Manual.pdf - from RS4500, but unlikely to have changed in RS4100 etc))

To do this properly you'd really need JVC to adapt one of the HDMI infoframe packets that travel to the display along with the pixel data, providing full control of the laser diode level.


----------



## ahmedhaff

bobof said:


> Have you checked the AppleTV still has Match Rate enabled? AppleTV4k will remember this setting for each of the EDIDs I think, most of the time. So even if you set it for 4K, you might have to set it also for 1080p.


Thanks. Match Frame Rate is on. I thought that was a universal setting in ATV4K (irrespective of resolution, which in my case is set to 4K SDR, 23.98).


----------



## bobof

ahmedhaff said:


> Thanks. Match Frame Rate is on. I thought that was a universal setting in ATV4K (irrespective of resolution, which in my case is set to 4K SDR, 23.98).


It is universal for a given EDID.
But! What you are doing is slightly out of the standard...
The AppleTV remembers a whole different set of video settings for each EDID it sees (up to some limit).
So you have to enable match rate both with the 1080p EDID and for the 4K EDID being sent.
Obviously, when you are sending the 1080p EDID, you can't have the Apple TV UI set to 4K SDR 23.98... So at least some of what you post must be incomplete info.

My recollection is that by default on seeing a new EDID the AppleTV disables rate switching, you have to enable it for each EDID.

Check to see what is happening on the input of the Lumagen in each case by pressing OK/Enter to bring up the info screen. If the 1080p input to the Lumagen is at 24p for 24p content, and the Lumagen output is 60p, then it's a Lumagen config issue (which you should be able to setup in the Output menus). You can configure it for each refresh rate to output whatever rate you would like, just make sure you pay attention to the memory column to make sure you are only changing it for the particular memory you care about


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Should I be shutting off the dynamic contrast control on my LS10500 too when using the RP DTM?

Also, can someone give me a quick rundown on setting the auto aspect control. I have a 2.35 screen and use the lens memory to move from 16:9 to widescreen, 2.0 and 1.85. But I have a couple of those changing aspect films (Imax to widescreen) and I am still not totally clear on how to deal with those.


----------



## Dave Harper

Kris Deering said:


> But it DOES have an effect on dynamic tone mapping as it clamps most of the highlights and exhibits clipping. You spent about 3-5 minutes looking at content at the most while we were there, and most of it wasn't even proper HDR because we couldn't get your PC to send it properly (it kept converting to SDR 709). *I've spent MONTHS now looking at this projector with an abundance of sources that work properly and can EASILY demonstrate its pros and cons without all the hassles. But by all means, continue to push a narrative based on your few minutes of experience. What in the world would I know about any of this.*


Yes, I agree, that _should_ account for something, shouldn’t it.


----------



## DigitalAV

Dave Harper said:


> Yes, I agree, that _should_ account for something, shouldn’t it.


Pretty sure his ego has folks like us on ignore


----------



## bobof

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Should I be shutting off the dynamic contrast control on my LS10500 too when using the RP DTM?
> 
> Also, can someone give me a quick rundown on setting the auto aspect control. I have a 2.35 screen and use the lens memory to move from 16:9 to widescreen, 2.0 and 1.85. But I have a couple of those changing aspect films (Imax to widescreen) and I am still not totally clear on how to deal with those.


Don't use auto-aspect for the aspect changing movies, firstly it's a cinematic abomination, but secondly it doesn't work fast enough, so you'll get up to a few seconds lag each aspcct change. What you should do is set up your 2.35:1 mode to have the areas outside of the 2.35:1 screen safe area digitally masked to black (the Lumagen can do this for you) which will give you a constant 2.35:1 presentation that will be reasonably close to what you'd get in a scope theatre. It won't be an exact match - as they sometimes change the framing of the section of IMAX film they use in the scope version, which obviously you can't do with just a static centre crop - but it's probably the best you can do with a 'scope screen and those titles..

Or search out the non-VAR versions of those movies, which are often found on streaming services it seems.


----------



## aguy

I actually prefer to watch the VAR movies in the centre 16:9 section of my 2.4 screen and have the sides masked with masking panels. Then the movie will have black bars at the top and bottom for the scope portions. 

A few movies I do use the lumagen auto aspect mid movie. These are movies where there are only a couple of aspect ratio changes during the whole movie. One example would be Wonder Woman 84 where the opening scene is 1.9 I think and then opens out to 2.4 for the majority of the movie. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DannyBoy73

Not wanting to restart the Zappiti conversation again, however does anyone here have one of the newer DV models (or old), if so what video settings do you run it on with a Lumagen?

There websites suggest: [Video] Best Video Settings – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions


----------



## bobof

aguy said:


> I actually prefer to watch the VAR movies in the centre 16:9 section of my 2.4 screen and have the sides masked with masking panels. Then the movie will have black bars at the top and bottom for the scope portions.


Is your screen and / or viewing angle massive? I can't imagine watching those titles that way, especially given they're typically titles that are supposed to be impactful, it would seem for all but a giant 2:4 screen to be really cramped into the 2.4:1 screen height.


----------



## Roland Janus

Just read a quote:

"When Frame Interpolation comes out via a FW update with the Envy (Spring 2022?) it will do “Motion Flow“ at 4096 lines, which is a first for a VP or a projector I believe. Something I am looking forward to."

Doable with the RP?


----------



## SJHT

Roland Janus said:


> Just read a quote:
> 
> "When Frame Interpolation comes out via a FW update with the Envy (Spring 2022?) it will do “Motion Flow“ at 4096 lines, which is a first for a VP or a projector I believe. Something I am looking forward to."
> 
> Doable with the RP?


This is a good thread for some of these questions…..









Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...


I think he actually bought them all (!) for his own evaluation... Correct, I purchased both madVR Envy Extreme and Pro .... and i already owned the Lumagen 4242 ( now 5348) . I also still keep up to date/follow madVR ( as i have done for years) and my HTPC which runs a 3090 GPU..




www.avsforum.com


----------



## melb0028

DannyBoy73 said:


> Not wanting to restart the Zappiti conversation again, however does anyone here have one of the newer DV models (or old), if so what video settings do you run it on with a Lumagen?
> 
> There websites suggest: [Video] Best Video Settings – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions


For the lumagen the recommended settings above are best with prior zappitis such as the 4k pro ACE. My new Signature with the lumagen also seems best with these settings (as an aside the Signature player is absolutely stunning video and audio)


----------



## jrp

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Should I be shutting off the dynamic contrast control on my LS10500 too when using the RP DTM?
> 
> Also, can someone give me a quick rundown on setting the auto aspect control. I have a 2.35 screen and use the lens memory to move from 16:9 to widescreen, 2.0 and 1.85. But I have a couple of those changing aspect films (Imax to widescreen) and I am still not totally clear on how to deal with those.


bobof's answer is excellent. I do have a couple extra comments.

Lumagen recommends watching iMAX aspect changing movies on a anamorphic screen entirely in anamorphic mode, as bobof mentions. We felt so strongly about this that we added a new buttons on the recently introduced "Radiance Pro" remote for this case. With Auto-aspect sticky override enabled, you could press the actual anamorphic aspect, but Radiance Pro owners pointed out they might not know what this is. So, we added two buttons. One to temporarily disable auto-aspect for the rest of the movie, and one where you can reenable it. They are the lower-left two buttons. So, you do not need to know the anamorphic aspect. The auto aspect will have determined that. You only need to turn it off with the auto aspect disable button and watch the movie as the director intended for an anamorphic screen.

During an anamorphic sequence, you press the disable auto aspect button, and then can watch the rest of the movie as intended on an anamorphic screen. If the movie start in a non-anamorphic aspect, you can either wait for the first anamorphic scene or if you know the aspect (likely 2.40, but not always), you can press that aspect button to temporarily disable auto aspect and select that aspect ratio.

===== 

In general Radiance Pro owners prefer to _not_ use multiple lens memories on a day-to-day basis. There are issues using multiple lens memories. One of which is you cannot use the Radiance Pro image based auto-aspect in conjunction with changing the lens memory for different aspect lens memory settings. At least not in a practical way.

While I have a second configuration memory setup for 16:9, with a 16:9 lens memory, in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I almost never use it. The problem is I need to manually adjust the position and focus every time I change the lens memory. Just not worth it to me. At this point, the only time I would consider using the 16:9 lens memory mode is for a big game day when we had company and have the theater lights on.

I use the anamorphic 2.40 lens memory for everything. This does not have as much light as 16:9 with a 16:9 lens memory, but in a darkened theater I find all content aspect ratios look excellent (and my previous post on black level applies). However, as noted, I do have the 16:9 lens memory settings ready in case I want to use it.

I recommend that a main mode be set up using MEMA for anamorphic lens memory mode. Then using the Output Setup Memory to setup MEMB for 16:9 output aspect viewing mode. You would select a different Output Style memory for the MEMB 16:9 mode, select MEMB, and then setup for 16:9 lens memory. 

When you want to use the 16:9 lens memory, you, or your control system, would select MEMB in the Radiance Pro and the 16:9 lens memory. I recommend when changing the lens memory that you check the focus and position since the consumer projectors I have seen this on do not stay in focus or position well enough after the change.

I am not going to give more details here. I suggest if you want to get the most out of your Radiance Pro that you hire someone to help you do the setup. Kris Deering does this remotely, and everyone I have heard from says he does a great job for them. If you have a Lumagen expert calibrator in for calibration they can likely help you get a two-lens-memory setup going (and can call me for assistance if needed).


----------



## sjschaff

melb0028 said:


> For the lumagen the recommended settings above are best with prior zappitis such as the 4k pro ACE. My new Signature with the lumagen also seems best with these settings (as an aside the Signature player is absolutely stunning video and audio)


Any reasons why you chose the Signature in particular? Are there hardware specific factors that will contribute more than what a Neo offers, apart from using the Signature for it's XLR balance outs, headphone capabilities, better display and audio processor? Personally I use my current Zappiti with Trinnov audio processor and, of course a LRP. So, I'm not aware that any of these added features affect the overall visual or sonic performance for my use case.

By the way, anyone played with these options?
*


[Video Settings] How to Set the Resolution And Auto-Framerate of the Zappiti Player 4K – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions


*


----------



## Geof

Audio Dropouts Update
I have all JRP recommended cables connecting the oppo to the Lumagen (3m passive Bullet Train) and the Lumagen to the AVP (4m passive BT) and from the AVP to the JVC (10m fiber Bullet Train). I'm still experiencing audio dropouts (quite a few on the UHD Atomic Blonde).

The fix, sadly, is to move the Lumagen out of the audio path. Not what I expected for a $6000 box. Putting the Lumagen after the AVP works for me but I've lost significant functionality in my setup. With the Lumagen before the AVP I was using output 2 for the bedroom TV. Naturlly this allows all input sources to be selected and used in the Bedroom. Moving the Radiance to the AVP output kills this idea unless I accept the fact the AVP has to be turned on even for bedroom viewing. Ain't gonna happen. So now I'm adding a 2x2 matrix switch so I can direct the DVR output to the AVP or Bedroom. And with this setup there is no Oppo available for bedroom use. I now have the Oppo HDMI Audio ouput feeding the AVP and the Oppo Video output is fed directly into Input 1 of the Lumagen. The AVP output feed Lumagen input 2. Output 1 feeds the JVC. In this configuration there is no audio being sent to the Lumagen.

I realize that only certian AVP's are afflicted by the dropouts and they are being blamed for the problem. Funny thing tho, I don't get any dropouts feeding the Oppo (A+V) HDMI output straight into the AVR and bypassing the Lumagen. So it certainly seems as tho there is something inside the Lumagen causing this issue. I can say, in reflection, if I knew this beforehand I would have considered alternatives. Audio dropouts are a major liability.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Pretty sure his ego has folks like us on ignore


I do my best to not be confrontational. However, this post is uncalled for and just plain incorrect. You mistake knowledge for ego.

Kris Deering is one of the nicest, lowest ego, people I have ever met. He _is_ one of the most knowledgeable people on video I have ever met. There are two people who I count on the most to give me feedback: Jon Thompson (a post-production movie producer), and Kris Deering. They are the _only_ people to report some very difficult to see issues we have had to make changes for, for example with DTM. Many others have helped us as well (and we are thankful to everyone who has provided feedback), it's just Kris' feedback has been instrumental helping us perfect DTM, and other aspects of the Radiance Pro.

While Kris' relationship with Lumagen is only as a dealer, he has provided excellent feedback to help us improve DTM and other algorithms. I have never seen anything but accurate and helpful posts from Kris. If Kris says something, I suggest you listen.


----------



## melb0028

sjschaff said:


> Any reasons why you chose the Signature in particular? Are there hardware specific factors that will contribute more than what a Neo offers, apart from using the Signature for it's XLR balance outs, headphone capabilities, better display and audio processor? Personally I use my current Zappiti with Trinnov audio processor and, of course a LRP. So, I'm not aware that any of these added features affect the overall visual or sonic performance for my use case.
> 
> By the way, anyone played with these options?
> *
> 
> 
> [Video Settings] How to Set the Resolution And Auto-Framerate of the Zappiti Player 4K – Ideas Proposals for New Features / Idées et suggestions
> 
> 
> *


Yes, each step up in the line provides higher quality components and audio/video output so when pairing with a high end processor such as the lumagen I personally wanted the highest possible available. Up to each person though if the cost is worth it. To me it was a no brainer pair with the lumagen.
Direct output to the lumagen is best. Let the lumagen do all upscaling and deinterlacing.


----------



## sjschaff

melb0028 said:


> Yes, each step up in the line provides higher quality components and audio/video output so when pairing with a high end processor such as the lumagen I personally wanted the highest possible available. Up to each person though if the cost is worth it. To me it was a no brainer pair with the lumagen.
> Direct output to the lumagen is best. Let the lumagen do all upscaling and deinterlacing.


I've taken the last Zappiti settings approach, the community website suggests, with the LRP:

*TV with 4K upscaling TV*

If you have a 4K TV and want to enjoy the upscaling of your TV instead of Zappiti Player 4K upscaling, please select the "1080p @ 50Hz" option and check "1080p 24Hz" option. The Zappiti Player 4K will release the 1920x1080 resolution, which will be scaled by your 4K TV or front projector.

I've been trying to come up with a combination of settings, specifically for the Zappiti, that prevents and judder that happens on some films every 10-15 minutes or so. Unclear the source, however. Seems prevalent with 4K UHD material.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> I do my best to not be confrontational. However, this post is uncalled for and just plain incorrect. You mistake knowledge for ego.
> 
> Kris Deering is one of the nicest, lowest ego, people I have ever met. He _is_ one of the most knowledgeable people on video I have ever met. There are two people who I count on the most to give me feedback: Jon Thompson (a post-production movie producer), and Kris Deering. They are the _only_ people to report some very difficult to see issues we have had to make changes for, for example with DTM. Many others have helped us as well (and we are thankful to everyone who has provided feedback), it's just Kris' feedback has been instrumental helping us perfect DTM, and other aspects of the Radiance Pro.
> 
> While Kris' relationship with Lumagen is only as a dealer, he has provided excellent feedback to help us improve DTM and other algorithms. I have never seen anything but accurate and helpful posts from Kris. If Kris says something, I suggest you listen.


Fair enough, I'm just going by how he sometimes treats folks on these boards. Never met him.


----------



## Kris Deering

DigitalAV said:


> Pretty sure his ego has folks like us on ignore


It probably will now. Thanks for confirmation that you should be.


----------



## Scorpion66

jrp said:


> bobof's answer is excellent. I do have a couple extra comments.
> 
> Lumagen recommends watching iMAX aspect changing movies on a anamorphic screen entirely in anamorphic mode, as bobof mentions. We felt so strongly about this that we added a new buttons on the recently introduced "Radiance Pro" remote for this case. With Auto-aspect sticky override enabled, you could press the actual anamorphic aspect, but Radiance Pro owners pointed out they might not know what this is. So, we added two buttons. One to temporarily disable auto-aspect for the rest of the movie, and one where you can reenable it. They are the lower-left two buttons. So, you do not need to know the anamorphic aspect. The auto aspect will have determined that. You only need to turn it off with the auto aspect disable button and watch the movie as the director intended for an anamorphic screen.
> 
> During an anamorphic sequence, you press the disable auto aspect button, and then can watch the rest of the movie as intended on an anamorphic screen. If the movie start in a non-anamorphic aspect, you can either wait for the first anamorphic scene or if you know the aspect (likely 2.40, but not always), you can press that aspect button to temporarily disable auto aspect and select that aspect ratio.
> 
> =====
> 
> In general Radiance Pro owners prefer to _not_ use multiple lens memories on a day-to-day basis. There are issues using multiple lens memories. One of which is you cannot use the Radiance Pro image based auto-aspect in conjunction with changing the lens memory for different aspect lens memory settings. At least not in a practical way.
> 
> While I have a second configuration memory setup for 16:9, with a 16:9 lens memory, in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I almost never use it. The problem is I need to manually adjust the position and focus every time I change the lens memory. Just not worth it to me. At this point, the only time I would consider using the 16:9 lens memory mode is for a big game day when we had company and have the theater lights on.
> 
> I use the anamorphic 2.40 lens memory for everything. This does not have as much light as 16:9 with a 16:9 lens memory, but in a darkened theater I find all content aspect ratios look excellent (and my previous post on black level applies). However, as noted, I do have the 16:9 lens memory settings ready in case I want to use it.
> 
> I recommend that a main mode be set up using MEMA for anamorphic lens memory mode. Then using the Output Setup Memory to setup MEMB for 16:9 output aspect viewing mode. You would select a different Output Style memory for the MEMB 16:9 mode, select MEMB, and then setup for 16:9 lens memory.
> 
> When you want to use the 16:9 lens memory, you, or your control system, would select MEMB in the Radiance Pro and the 16:9 lens memory. I recommend when changing the lens memory that you check the focus and position since the consumer projectors I have seen this on do not stay in focus or position well enough after the change.
> 
> I am not going to give more details here. I suggest if you want to get the most out of your Radiance Pro that you hire someone to help you do the setup. Kris Deering does this remotely, and everyone I have heard from says he does a great job for them. If you have a Lumagen expert calibrator in for calibration they can likely help you get a two-lens-memory setup going (and can call me for assistance if needed).


This is exactly that I did: MemA: 2.4:1 Mode with Auto aspect is activated, Memo: 16:9 Mode without auto aspect. Now I can control, if I want the change of aspect ratio during the Film or not.
The only thing is in 2.4:1 Mode I don't see the Menu or OSD placed below. It takes a cupple of time til the output switches to 16:9 Mode and shows me the Info. Therefore I would also appreciate if the debouncing for the aspect detection would be configurable to make it faster if needed.


----------



## Mark Burton

melb0028 said:


> For the lumagen the recommended settings above are best with prior zappitis such as the 4k pro ACE. My new Signature with the lumagen also seems best with these settings (as an aside the Signature player is absolutely stunning video and audio)


Better than the ACE?


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> It probably will now. Thanks for confirmation that you should be.


Spoken like a true professional of the industry. Bye, Felicia


----------



## Karl Maga

DigitalAV said:


> Spoken like a true professional of the industry. Bye, Felicia


Dude, are you for real? You don’t see how coming in here and being a tool to someone undeserving makes you look? Lighten up, Karen


----------



## DigitalAV

Karl Maga said:


> Dude, are you for real? You don’t see how coming in here and being a tool to someone undeserving makes you look? Lighten up, Karen


Sorry, the way he carries himself sometimes rings of someone like a Josh Lehman to me. Probably reading too much into it, but he can be low-key belittling to those he doesn't deem worthy, in my view anyway. Not fair, I know, apologies to everyone involved. Clearly bringing my own baggage so I'll just stop now. It was a dumb post by me.


----------



## Kris Deering

Karl Maga said:


> Dude, are you for real? You don’t see how coming in here and being a tool to someone undeserving makes you look? Lighten up, Karen


Thats the thing, he clearly doesn’t. It is obviously okay to personally insult an industry professional and when that person then says they will add them to ignore they turn around and make it look like they are the victim. Too many examples of this type on these boards.


----------



## Dave Harper

Kris Deering said:


> Thats the thing, he clearly doesn’t. It is obviously okay to personally insult an industry professional and when that person then says they will add them to ignore they turn around and make it look like they are the victim. Too many examples of this type on these boards.


I can relate.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> Thats the thing, he clearly doesn’t. It is obviously okay to personally insult an industry professional and when that person then says they will add them to ignore they turn around and make it look like they are the victim. Too many examples of this type on these boards.


You rub me the wrong way & I was an immature ass about it. Apologies, my fault.


----------



## Kris Deering

My issues with you in the past are pretty well documented and I wasn’t the only one who was throwing flags on your rants. The same ones that got you banned from this forum for quite awhile I might add. Probably tells you something about your posts. But feel free to throw the victim flag as well.


----------



## Erod

DigitalAV said:


> You rub me the wrong way & I was an immature ass about it. Apologies, my fault.


I'm sure Kris has written or responded to me before and it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm damn certain I've irritated him a time or two with a lazy or repetitive question.

So what? The best thing about being dudes is that we (supposedly) get over such trivial stuff in a nanosecond. It's over almost the minute it happened.

I bought my Lumagen from Kris, and he helped me set it up. He's been patient, professional, and just plain cool along the way. And I'm sure I tried his patience a couple times. He's had a snippy tone once or twice, probably after a 12-hour day of a lot of guys like me asking questions he's fielded a thousand times. 

I'm the same way. So are you. Again, so what? Let's be men, and just let it go like men do. 

I'd have a beer or 5 with Kris anytime. Probably you, too.


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> I'm sure Kris has written or responded to me before and it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm damn certain I've irritated him a time or two with a lazy or repetitive question.
> 
> So what? The best thing about being dudes is that we (supposedly) get over such trivial stuff in a nanosecond. It's over almost the minute it happened.
> 
> I bought my Lumagen from Kris, and he helped me set it up. He's been patient, professional, and just plain cool along the way. And I'm sure I tried his patience a couple times. He's had a snippy tone once or twice, probably after a 12-hour day of a lot of guys like me asking questions he's fielded a thousand times.
> 
> I'm the same way. So are you. Again, so what? Let's be men, and just let it go like men do.
> 
> I'd have a beer or 5 with Kris anytime. Probably you, too.


Will do.


----------



## asharma

Erod said:


> I'm sure Kris has written or responded to me before and it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm damn certain I've irritated him a time or two with a lazy or repetitive question.
> 
> So what? The best thing about being dudes is that we (supposedly) get over such trivial stuff in a nanosecond. It's over almost the minute it happened.
> 
> I bought my Lumagen from Kris, and he helped me set it up. He's been patient, professional, and just plain cool along the way. And I'm sure I tried his patience a couple times. He's had a snippy tone once or twice, probably after a 12-hour day of a lot of guys like me asking questions he's fielded a thousand times.
> 
> I'm the same way. So are you. Again, so what? Let's be men, and just let it go like men do.
> 
> I'd have a beer or 5 with Kris anytime. Probably you, too.


Ohhhhhhhhhh, so THAT explains why Kris was a wee bit short with me…He had probably just finished dealing with YOU!!! 😉😉😉😉😉 it’s ALLLLLLL starting to make sense now 😉😉😉😉😉


----------



## aguy

bobof said:


> Is your screen and / or viewing angle massive? I can't imagine watching those titles that way, especially given they're typically titles that are supposed to be impactful, it would seem for all but a giant 2:4 screen to be really cramped into the 2.4:1 screen height.


For me it’s big enough that it is fine to view that way. One example is transformers the last knight. The aspect ratio changes often every shot so I think it’s best to watch in 16:9 format. 

And opposite end like I also mentioned is WW84. I could easily watch that fully scope and crop the top and bottom of the opening scene. But it’s only one change so I let lumagen autoaspect change the ratio when the scope section starts. 

But it really depends on the movie. I set my system up so that can choose per movie how to best view each movie. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## melb0028

Mark Burton said:


> Better than the ACE?


Yes, by a mile imho


----------



## sjschaff

Can anyone clue me in on what changes exist for the new Zappiti DV players? I'm most interested in changes in Settings and whether Developer Options still exist or if they've moved elsewhere. I've always had to force the HDR switch on in that section to get the Zappiti to properly work with my Lumagen video processor.


----------



## melb0028

sjschaff said:


> Can anyone clue me in on what changes exist for the new Zappiti DV players? I'm most interested in changes in Settings and whether Developer Options still exist or if they've moved elsewhere. I've always had to force the HDR switch on in that section to get the Zappiti to properly work with my Lumagen video processor.


I can see the HDR switch is still present so can use that to lumagen if needed. Settings are streamlined better now. Only issue is direct output to the lumagen only works for 4k and Blu-ray but not dvds. I’m told a fix is in the works as the lumagen is best to handle upscaling and deinterlacing (although the margin of difference is a bit less now and dvd upscaling on zappiti is acceptable if not ideal)


----------



## sjschaff

The switch in Developer Options is the important one for my setup, rather than the one in Display Options (HDR-to-SDR for displays that cannot deal with HDR at all). I'm still baffled why I would need this to work properly with my Lumagen.

I'm rather surprised that Direct Output isn't there from the get go as this was the big feature in the last series of players.


----------



## ShadeRF

Was watching No Time to Die tonight and at the very end noticed some artifacts I've never seen before which is only noticeable in what I assume is supposed to be complete black.. It looks like a bunch of horizontal lines. Did some testing to figure out what the source of the problem was and found it goes away when I change HDR tone mapping from Enabled to Default. Sharing a photo of what I'm seeing. Any idea what I may have set up incorrectly for this to happen?


----------



## jbrinegar

ShadeRF said:


> Was watching No Time to Die tonight and at the very end noticed some artifacts I've never seen before which is only noticeable in what I assume is supposed to be complete black.. It looks like a bunch of horizontal lines. Did some testing to figure out what the source of the problem was and found it goes away when I change HDR tone mapping from Enabled to Default. Sharing a photo of what I'm seeing. Any idea what I may have set up incorrectly for this to happen?


Was this on the 4k uhd disc via oppo 203 or streaming?


----------



## ShadeRF

jbrinegar said:


> Was this on the 4k uhd disc via oppo 203 or streaming?


4k disc via the oppo


----------



## jbrinegar

ShadeRF said:


> 4k disc via the oppo


I’ll try it on my oppo tomorrow to see if I can replicate it


----------



## Mikesterz

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Should I be shutting off the dynamic contrast control on my LS10500 too when using the RP DTM?
> 
> Also, can someone give me a quick rundown on setting the auto aspect control. I have a 2.35 screen and use the lens memory to move from 16:9 to widescreen, 2.0 and 1.85. But I have a couple of those changing aspect films (Imax to widescreen) and I am still not totally clear on how to deal with those.


I use my projector for zooming to all the aspect ratios as well. I’ve been doing this for years. It never loses focus or anything. I never tried the lumagen scaling but I’m happy with what I have.


----------



## desray2k

I don't know why Netflix cannot introduce some form of subtitle management for scope content. Long story short, as most of you guys are aware that Netflix subtitles are usually located below a movie shown in a scope aspect ratio and there is *no way *we can do to move the subtitle up into the video segment as far as I know. I have read how Envy Pro by MadVR attempts to overcome this "subtitle issue" albeit not perfect but at least it will try to restore the top and the sides to "fill in" the black bars.








See article: https://madvrenvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Managing-Subtitles-on-Scope-Screens.pdf?r=106

I wonder is there any workaround for Lumagen RP that resembles Envy Pro that we can explore or perhaps a feature to be included in the near future? Sorry if this has been raised before.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> While I have a second configuration memory setup for 16:9, with a 16:9 lens memory, in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I almost never use it. The problem is I need to manually adjust the position and focus every time I change the lens memory. Just not worth it to me.


This is an interesting topic. Jim, we have the same projector. I think I've probably owned mine a couple of years longer than you. When I first used mine I was constantly frustrated by the need to reposition and refocus after switching lens memories, particularly as my previous projector didn't require it. But gradually, over time, the mechanism seemed to "settle" such that now I never need to refocus or reposition after a lens memory switch. It's always spot on. No idea why this transition to stability occurs, or whether it's a function of time or usage, or something else? But perhaps you will eventually see the same.

Having said the above, like many I also now prefer to use just the single lens memory and avoid switching.


----------



## stephenbr

Hopefully soon to be a Radiance Pro owner. IIRC a member has a link to set up guide in their signature block but I am having trouble finding it

Can anyone point me in the right direction?


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> Just read a quote:
> 
> "When Frame Interpolation comes out via a FW update with the Envy (Spring 2022?) it will do “Motion Flow“ at 4096 lines, which is a first for a VP or a projector I believe. Something I am looking forward to."
> 
> Doable with the RP?


@jrp : can you comment on this please?


----------



## Roland Janus

desray2k said:


> I don't know why Netflix cannot introduce some form of subtitle management for scope content. Long story short, as most of you guys are aware that Netflix subtitles are usually located below a movie shown in a scope aspect ratio and there is *no way *we can do to move the subtitle up into the video segment as far as I know. I have read how Envy Pro by MadVR attempts to overcome this "subtitle issue" albeit not perfect but at least it will try to restore the top and the sides to "fill in" the black bars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See article: https://madvrenvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Managing-Subtitles-on-Scope-Screens.pdf?r=106
> 
> I wonder is there any workaround for Lumagen RP that resembles Envy Pro that we can explore or perhaps a feature to be included in the near future? Sorry if this has been raised before.


I prefer this, at least when using Kodi.

download the subtitle from opensubtitles.com
move the subtitles position up within kodi..


----------



## bferbrache

stephenbr said:


> Hopefully soon to be a Radiance Pro owner. IIRC a member has a link to set up guide in their signature block but I am having trouble finding it
> 
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Try here 









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


mmmmm.. this might help to solve the problem I was explaining above……




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Killroy

desray2k said:


> I don't know why Netflix cannot introduce some form of subtitle management for scope content.


The answer is quite simple... as long as streaming services continue to use text based SRT for subtitles, which has no position management unlike graphic based subtitles like PGS, we will continue to have this problem.


----------



## Clark Burk

ShadeRF said:


> Was watching No Time to Die tonight and at the very end noticed some artifacts I've never seen before which is only noticeable in what I assume is supposed to be complete black.. It looks like a bunch of horizontal lines. Did some testing to figure out what the source of the problem was and found it goes away when I change HDR tone mapping from Enabled to Default. Sharing a photo of what I'm seeing. Any idea what I may have set up incorrectly for this to happen?


Is Laser dimming active on your 3100? Jim mentioned that laser dimming and dynamic tone mapping did not work well together and could cause artifacts. Perhaps that's what you are experiencing. You could also leave DTM on in the Lumagen and try turning off laser dimming. That would just be the opposite of the test you did.


----------



## ShadeRF

Clark Burk said:


> Is Laser dimming active on your 3100? Jim mentioned that laser dimming and dynamic tone mapping did not work well together and could cause artifacts. Perhaps that's what you are experiencing. You could also leave DTM on in the Lumagen and try turning off laser dimming. That would just be the opposite of the test you did.


I do not have laser dimming turned on


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> The switch in Developer Options is the important one for my setup, rather than the one in Display Options (HDR-to-SDR for displays that cannot deal with HDR at all). I'm still baffled why I would need this to work properly with my Lumagen.
> *
> I'm rather surprised that Direct Output isn't there from the get go as this was the big feature in the last series of players.*


It's labeled " Auto " now. There is a description pop up on what the various settings do in my NEO.


----------



## ShadeRF

ShadeRF said:


> Was watching No Time to Die tonight and at the very end noticed some artifacts I've never seen before which is only noticeable in what I assume is supposed to be complete black.. It looks like a bunch of horizontal lines. Did some testing to figure out what the source of the problem was and found it goes away when I change HDR tone mapping from Enabled to Default. Sharing a photo of what I'm seeing. Any idea what I may have set up incorrectly for this to happen?


I seem to have this fixed now. I'm not sure if the problem was with the projector auto-cal or the calibration on the Lumagen but I reset everything, reconfigured, and recalibrated and it looks right now with no discernable artifacts


----------



## sjschaff

Craig Peer said:


> It's labeled " Auto " now. There is a description pop up on what the various settings do in my NEO.


So, Auto is now Direct Mode? 

Or are you referring to the HDR switch in Developer Options? Does the Neo offer the Developer Options and/or this switch?
This latter one is necessary for me using Zappiti with the LRP. Don't know why but if it's off I cannot get the LRP/JVC combination to play 4K. 

Would like to know what your settings were for your previous Zappiti that allowed for 4K to trigger the correct HDR in your LRP. If you didn't need to use any Developer settings, then I might have a problem with my LRP settings that I got from Kris Deering.


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> So, Auto is now Direct Mode?
> 
> Or are you referring to the HDR switch in Developer Options? Does the Neo offer the Developer Options and/or this switch?
> This latter one is necessary for me using Zappiti with the LRP. Don't know why but if it's off I cannot get the LRP/JVC combination to play 4K.
> 
> Would like to know what your settings were for your previous Zappiti that allowed for 4K to trigger the correct HDR in your LRP. If you didn't need to use any Developer settings, then I might have a problem with my LRP settings that I got from Kris Deering.


Yes - " auto " is the current direct output. 

" Would like to know what your settings were for your previous Zappiti that allowed for 4K to trigger the correct HDR in your LRP. ' the previous Pro4K player didn't send metadata - it wouldn't make the JVC I have switch automatically between SDR and HDR. That's fixed in the new players. You might want to continue this conversation in the Zappiti threads.


----------



## sjschaff

Craig Peer said:


> Yes - " auto " is the current direct output.
> 
> " Would like to know what your settings were for your previous Zappiti that allowed for 4K to trigger the correct HDR in your LRP. ' the previous Pro4K player didn't send metadata - it wouldn't make the JVC I have switch automatically between SDR and HDR. That's fixed in the new players. You might want to continue this conversation in the Zappiti threads.


Just wondering if my requirement to use that switch was required, since the documentation says "stay away" from this whole area...

Did raise this in "*Zappiti RTD1619DR (Neo, Reference, Signature) Thread". *

Nobody ever responded. Should I use a different thread?


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> Just wondering if my requirement to use that switch was required, since the documentation says "stay away" from this whole area...
> 
> Did raise this in "*Zappiti RTD1619DR (Neo, Reference, Signature) Thread". *
> 
> Nobody ever responded. Should I use a different thread?


I'm not using any developer settings in my NEO and things work fine currently.


----------



## sjschaff

Craig Peer said:


> I'm not using any developer settings in my NEO and things work fine currently.


Did you use any Developer Options with your prior Zappiti, especially the HDR Switch?


----------



## MDesigns

Roland Janus said:


> Just read a quote:
> 
> "When Frame Interpolation comes out via a FW update with the Envy (Spring 2022?) it will do “Motion Flow“ at 4096 lines, which is a first for a VP or a projector I believe. Something I am looking forward to."
> 
> Doable with the RP?


IMO it would need HDMI 2.1 and 4K 120hz to do anything good. That is not possible with the current hardware, but maybe in the future.


----------



## FenceMan

Roland Janus said:


> Just read a quote:
> 
> "When Frame Interpolation comes out via a FW update with the Envy (Spring 2022?) it will do “Motion Flow“ at 4096 lines, which is a first for a VP or a projector I believe. Something I am looking forward to."
> 
> Doable with the RP?


Slightly unfair to try and hold RP to a standard the other guys haven't even done yet.


----------



## Ilushka85

So I have a radiance and an nx7 I’m playing with till my nz9 arrives. I have a


FenceMan said:


> Slightly unfair to try and hold RP to a standard the other guys haven't even done yet.


agreed but we all know the lrp is not at all future proof and the Madvr at least has a possibility of it.


----------



## Ilushka85

Ilushka85 said:


> So I have a radiance and an nx7 I’m playing with till my nz9 arrives. I have a
> 
> 
> agreed but we all know the lrp is not at all future proof and the Madvr at least has a possibility of it.


also at nearly triple the price Id rather buy a new lrp when the next gen is ready.


----------



## Killroy

Ilushka85 said:


> agreed but we all know the lrp is *not at all future proof* and the Madvr at least has a possibility of it.


How do you figure that? Jim is still working on improvements on the FPGA pipeline and from what I understand, they are nowhere near to topping them out yet.


----------



## FenceMan

Ilushka85 said:


> So I have a radiance and an nx7 I’m playing with till my nz9 arrives. I have a
> 
> 
> agreed but we all know the lrp is not at all future proof and the Madvr at least has a possibility of it.


That's patently false. RP added dynamic tone mapping out of nowhere, it's the definition of future proof (they have proven so).


----------



## melb0028

sjschaff said:


> Did you use any Developer Options with your prior Zappiti, especially the HDR Switch?


If needed for your lumagen the developer option for hdr/sdr is still present just like the current players. My guess though is the auto setting will work to your lumagen.


----------



## Ilushka85

Killroy said:


> How do you figure that? Jim is still working on improvements on the FPGA pipeline and from what I understand, they are nowhere near to topping them out yet.


I mean not future proof as far as HDMI changes. Current hardware won’t ever support 8k. There are physical limitations in lrp in which Madvr is a bit ahead on.


----------



## FenceMan

Ilushka85 said:


> I mean not future proof as far as HDMI changes. Current hardware won’t ever support 8k. There are physical limitations in lrp in which Madvr is a bit ahead on.


Now you are holding them to a resolution standard that does not yet exist also? 

Just to play devil's advocate I can order a RP tomorrow and have it in a few days, most people can't even get a response from MadVR in that time let alone product.


----------



## Ilushka85

FenceMan said:


> Now you are holding them to a resolution standard that does not yet exist also?
> 
> Just to play devil's advocate I can order a RP tomorrow and have it in a few days, most people can't even get a response from MadVR in that time let alone product.


The 8k standard exists. And yes the horrible responses from Madvr is why I didn’t buy one and just bought the lrp.


----------



## appelz

Ilushka85 said:


> I mean not future proof as far as HDMI changes. Current hardware won’t ever support 8k. There are physical limitations in lrp in which Madvr is a bit ahead on.


Even if the Envy can support 8K, the benefits for home theater would be primarily for gaming, and the internal latency of the Envy makes that a non-starter for most gamers.


----------



## FenceMan

Ilushka85 said:


> The 8k standard exists. And yes the horrible responses from Madvr is why I didn’t buy one and just bought the lrp.


Until there is a film released on an 8k format it does not exist. We don't even know if 8k will ever exist as a physical or streaming media for film.


----------



## Ilushka85

FenceMan said:


> Until there is a film released on an 8k format it does not exist. We don't even know if 8k will ever exist as a physical or streaming media for film.


sure but 8k videos and display devices still exist.It’s not a question of if it will exist but when it will be mainstream.
Again it’s why I bought the lrp at almost 1/3 the price I’ll just buy another lrp when the time comes. Much better than buying an envy for 13.5k today.


----------



## Clark Burk

Manufacturers will always push the next you got to have it advance. If not how do they get you to spend your money?
I’m all for tech advances but only when it demonstrates a clear benefit to me as a consumer. 8k ….. not convinced of the benefits yet.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

We can’t even get decent 4K material yet, let alone worrying about 8k.


----------



## audioguy

And good luck actually "seeing" the difference between 4K and 8K unless you sit REALLY close to your screen or TV. My new JVC Z9 up-converts to 8K and standing RIGHT next to the screen, the change is very obvious. Back up much distance and there is zero difference - at least to my eyes!!


----------



## jbrinegar

audioguy said:


> And good luck actually "seeing" the difference between 4K and 8K unless you sit REALLY close to your screen or TV. My new JVC Z9 up-converts to 8K and standing RIGHT next to the screen, the change is very obvious. Back up much distance and there is zero difference - at least to my eyes!!


Have you had any issues with your combo of Lumagen/NZ9 as was discussed earlier in this thread?


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> And good luck actually "seeing" the difference between 4K and 8K unless you sit REALLY close to your screen or TV. My new JVC Z9 up-converts to 8K and standing RIGHT next to the screen, the change is very obvious. Back up much distance and there is zero difference - at least to my eyes!!


You got your Z9?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DigitalAV

MDesigns said:


> IMO it would need HDMI 2.1 and 4K 120hz to do anything good. That is not possible with the current hardware, but maybe in the future.


Exactly this, along with good 5:5 pulldown to be meaningful


----------



## audioguy

steelman1991 said:


> You got your Z9?


I did. About a week or so ago. One of my clients who was ahead of me in the queue, told the dealer, since he had a projector (RS3000) and I did not, to let me have his and he would take mine (probably 3 or 4 weeks behind his). That is the spirit of Christmas!!!


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> I did. About a week or so ago. One of my clients who was ahead of me in the queue, told the dealer, since he had a projector (RS3000) and I did not, to let me have his and he would take mine (probably 3 or 4 weeks behind his).
> 
> *That is the spirit of Christmas!!!*


Chuck,

Super nice early Christmas "Surprise" for sure. 🇺🇸



T.


----------



## steelman1991

audioguy said:


> I did. About a week or so ago. One of my clients who was ahead of me in the queue, told the dealer, since he had a projector (RS3000) and I did not, to let me have his and he would take mine (probably 3 or 4 weeks behind his). That is the spirit of Christmas!!!


Definitely - what a great gesture. Initial impressions?

We're still waiting on shipments in the UK, one or two have arrived, but very limited quantities.


----------



## audioguy

steelman1991 said:


> Definitely - what a great gesture. Initial impressions?
> 
> We're still waiting on shipments in the UK, one or two have arrived, but very limited quantities.


Initial impressions: More like the RS3000 than MY RS4500 - and way better than *MY* 4500 (Black levels?) I emphasize "MY" because, based upon what I am seeing on the Z9 vs my 4500, my 4500 may not have been truly representative according to other 4500 owners? Picture quality of some of my BluRays (not just 4K/HDR) is just off the chart unreal. My wife, who notices NOTHING when I change something was blown away as well. And the fan noise on mid laser is super quiet and high laser, quieter than my 4500 is on mid laser. The clarity, color depth and over all image is just wonderful. I made the decision to switch to this projector based on reportedly (by Kris Deering) reduced fan noise, but got a lot more than just that. 

There was a reported issue with the Z9 and Lumagen combo and I have experienced that (quick, random flashes of "pink") which can be resolved buy loading the previous version of the Z9 firmware -which I plan to do as soon as I can find and download it. This was reported by Jim Peterson of Lumagen.

Other than that, love it and no complaints. Very glad I made the purchase. Very!


----------



## audioguy

jbrinegar said:


> Have you had any issues with your combo of Lumagen/NZ9 as was discussed earlier in this thread?


Flashing pink screen? Yes. And will convert JVC to previous firmware once I can find out from where to download it.


----------



## Karl Maga

audioguy said:


> Flashing pink screen? Yes. And will convert JVC to previous firmware once I can find out from where to download it.


@jrp has offered to assist those needing the FW you are mentioning. Get ahold of him via Lumagen support.


----------



## tomasg

I am going to buy new screen. Now I am deciding if 16:9 or 2.35:1. Mainly I am watching movies, streaming services BUT also sports like ice hockey or soccer. 
Can some one please post photos of ice hockey and soccer using NLS?
Thank you


----------



## jrp

tomasg said:


> I am going to buy new screen. Now I am deciding if 16:9 or 2.35:1. Mainly I am watching movies, streaming services BUT also sports like ice hockey or soccer.
> Can some one please post photos of ice hockey and soccer using NLS?
> Thank you


Here is a portion of a post I did on an "in between" option. Videophiles like the pixels to stay at their correct aspect, but if you want to "fill the screen" and since you like bot 16:9 and 2.40 content you might want to consider the following:

If you have not chosen your screen yet, and and you are okay with some stretch, and a bit of side cropping for 2.35 and 2.40 content, choose a 2.1 aspect screen. I have now convinced a few people who split their time equally between 16:9 content, and movies, that a 2.1 aspect screen is a reasonable choice. Let's do the math:

Content Programmed output aspect in Lumagen Output Style Style0 menu:
4:3 1.90
16:9 1.90
1.90 1.90
2.00 2.00 (about 5% horizontal stretch)
2.20 2.20 (about 5% vertical stretch)
2.35 2.35 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
2.40 2.40 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)

This mixes horizontal stretch, with vertical stretch and cropping of the sides. I considered a 2.1 aspect screen for the Lumagen Demo theater. However, since I am 95% movies, I went with a 2.40 Stewart StudioTek 130.

If you want to mix in NLS for the 16:9 content to fill the 2.1 screen, using auto-aspect, select "NLS when applicable," and set the output aspect to the actual 2.10 aspect ratio for 16:9 content in the output Style0 aspect menu. Then make sure to adjust the center section stretch to about 10% for the 16:9 content.

==================================

I completely understand videophiles wanting square pixels to stay square, and in fact that is how I currently have the Lumagen Demo Theater configured. However, I also understand wanting to "fill the screen" with minimal compromise and this is the reason for my post here.


----------



## Clark Burk

@jrp Jim any idea when the 12 bit firmware update might be released?


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> @jrp Jim any idea when the 12 bit firmware update might be released?


Patrick is making progress, but it is taking longer than we hoped (as is typical).

Today (Dec 20) Patrick sent me the first pipeline enhancement engineering release. The FPGA timing is not yet at full speed according to the synthesis tool. It is working on Patrick's unit (so it is close), but not mine. Patrick is working on improving the synthesis timing. He says upscaling is looking very nice. Some features (like downscaling) are not completed yet.

Does not look like we will be able to release Alpha this week. Patrick is taking the week of the 27th off. So, the earliest Alpha release will be is late the first week of January. This will depend on completing additional changes and how timing synthesis progresses after the changes.


----------



## Nima

I am having trouble with uploading a 1D and 3D LUT to the Lumagen via ColorSpace although the patterns work and its says connected and I see an upload happening. The control measurements with ColorSpace looks as if it is a NULL LUT though. 

What am I missing?


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Patrick is making progress, but it is taking longer than we hoped (as is typical).
> 
> Today (Dec 20) Patrick sent me the first pipeline enhancement engineering release. The FPGA timing is not yet at full speed according to the synthesis tool. It is working on Patrick's unit (so it is close), but not mine. Patrick is working on improving the synthesis timing. He says upscaling is looking very nice. Some features (like downscaling) are not completed yet.
> 
> Does not look like we will be able to release Alpha this week. Patrick is taking the week of the 27th off. So, the earliest Alpha release will be is late the first week of January. This will depend on completing additional changes and how timing synthesis progresses after the changes.


Appreciate the update, do you think the Alpha release will still contain the 16x9 downscaling enhancement for scope screens?


----------



## Erod

Will the addition of 12-bit capability visually improve image quality vs 10-bit, and are there any other improvements will be part of this update?


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> Will the addition of 12-bit capability visually improve image quality vs 10-bit, and are there any other improvements will be part of this update?


Jim has commented on this before, there will be other benefits, mainly in handling of 4K60 and scaling. I'm sure when it is released Jim will give a rundown of the full update and what it pertains to.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> Jim has commented on this before, there will be other benefits, mainly in handling of 4K60 and scaling. I'm sure when it is released Jim will give a rundown of the full update and what it pertains to.


Thanks, Kris. I'll try to go back and find his comments.


----------



## Nima

Where and how do I reset a CMS slot?


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Appreciate the update, do you think the Alpha release will still contain the 16x9 downscaling enhancement for scope screens?


You should see improvement for 16:9 on a 2.40 screen.

As always we will want feedback on this and may do more work for 16:9 on a 2.40 screen later.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> You should see improvement for 16:9 on a 2.40 screen.
> 
> As always we will want feedback on this and may do more work for 16:9 on a 2.40 screen later.


Will 4k -> 2k also be improved? I sometimes like to run my X7900 in 1080p to avoid the pixel shifting mechanism noise, which can be annoying.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Will 4k -> 2k also be improved? I sometimes like to run my X7900 in 1080p to avoid the pixel shifting mechanism noise, which can be annoying.


We have not optimized this in posted releases as much as we could. The feedback I have been getting is the images look excellent for 4k down-sampled to 1080p on a 1080p projector.

The down-scale happens in the front end of the pipeline that is going from 10-bit to 12-bit. I expect there to be some subtle improvement for 4k down to 1080p in early pipeline enhancement releases, but we are not targeting this. I will be interested in your feedback.

We are considering future improvements to the down-sampling processing. This work is not currently the highest priority.

=== 

Anticipating the next question: After we have the pipeline enhancements, PiP/PoP, deinterlacing improvements, and as requested reducing the "auto aspect hysteresis-delay," are likely going to be highest priority.


----------



## adrake23

Hello. I’m just getting my Anthem AVM70 setup. My source device is a Nvidia Shield playing an Atmos soundtrack. I’m getting a PCM status on the Anthem when connected from the Lumagen. However, when I plug my Nvidia Shield directly to Anthem, I get Atmos on the Anthem. How can I fix this issue from the Lumagen? Thanks 




















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nima

I am having trouble with 1D Lut upload from ColorSpace. I verified my 1D Lut with a quick profile and all of as expected but as soon as I upload it into the Lumagen (1D only, Unity Null cube or even reset CMS before) I get a messy control profile as if there was no 1D Lut present at all.

Do I have to activate the usage explicitly of the 1D in the Lumagen somewhere?

TIA


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> We have not optimized this in posted releases as much as we could. The feedback I have been getting is the images look excellent for 4k down-sampled to 1080p on a 1080p projector.
> 
> The down-scale happens in the front end of the pipeline that is going from 10-bit to 12-bit. I expect there to be some subtle improvement for 4k down to 1080p in early pipeline enhancement releases, but we are not targeting this. I will be interested in your feedback.
> 
> We are considering future improvements to the down-sampling processing. This work is not currently the highest priority.


Thanks. To be fair I wasn't sufficiently diligent when I Iast checked, it is possible the thing I was seeing was more related to the 4k60 through the pipeline, as opposed to the 4k -> 2k downscale.

Anyway, look forward to seeing the new releases when they're available.


----------



## bobof

adrake23 said:


> Hello. I’m just getting my Anthem AVM70 setup. My source device is a Nvidia Shield playing an Atmos soundtrack. I’m getting a PCM status on the Anthem when connected from the Lumagen. However, when I plug my Nvidia Shield directly to Anthem, I get Atmos on the Anthem. How can I fix this issue from the Lumagen? Thanks


Have you set the audio EDID correctly? Ideally you want to lock the EDID sent to the player to one with Atmos support. If you haven't set a fixed EDID, it is possible that the Radiance is sending an EDID without Atmos support declared to the Shield (default behaviour is to use the EDID from a particular Lumagen ouput and send that to the player, and if that output isn't connected or has a video device on it you end up with just basic audio support).

Follow this post: New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


----------



## Roland Janus

FenceMan said:


> Slightly unfair to try and hold RP to a standard the other guys haven't even done yet.


fair enough, but I also only asked if doable.


----------



## yamman30

May have been asked and answered but did not find it on search but with new jvc doing 120hz/8k and HDMI 2.1 is there a lumagen upgrade coming for HDMI 2.1 boards for that functionality? Thanks.


----------



## dlinsley

yamman30 said:


> May have been asked and answered but did not find it on search but with new jvc doing 120hz/8k and HDMI 2.1 is there a lumagen upgrade coming for HDMI 2.1 boards for that functionality? Thanks.


Originally, I was interested in a possible 8k output card (similar to the previous gen Lumagen did 2k in 4k out) for improving 16:9 squeeze in a DCR lens system by it now being upscale, but apparently the new JVCs don't offer 8192 wide input - only 7680 - so that makes it moot for my use. I guess custom aspect could be used to frame it all inside the 7680x4320 window, at the expense of ~6% brightness, or remove the DCR as I'd have way more brightness from an RS4100 at mid-laser at the same fan volume then I get on my RS3000 on low lamp now.

Honestly, I don't really see any issue with the current downscale squeeze but looking forward to being pleased with the pipeline improvements here.


----------



## Htnut2000

Deleted


----------



## bobof

yamman30 said:


> May have been asked and answered but did not find it on search but with new jvc doing 120hz/8k and HDMI 2.1 is there a lumagen upgrade coming for HDMI 2.1 boards for that functionality? Thanks.


The most recent post on the subject from Lumagen was a week ago:


jrp said:


> We are evaluating if we should do a product that can support 4k120 in and out, and 8k. Any such product would be a long way out.


----------



## desray2k

adrake23 said:


> Hello. I’m just getting my Anthem AVM70 setup. My source device is a Nvidia Shield playing an Atmos soundtrack. I’m getting a PCM status on the Anthem when connected from the Lumagen. However, when I plug my Nvidia Shield directly to Anthem, I get Atmos on the Anthem. How can I fix this issue from the Lumagen? Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can manually set the EDID for audio pass through on your RP. Try pressing Menu button + 0748 on the numeric pad of your remote controller. See if that helps.


----------



## Bill DePalma

I am wondering what the consensus is in regards to letting the LRP do the switching and send audio only to the the audio processor. While the approved method is fine and I don’t have any audio dropouts or other issues while using it, but I only 4 inputs on my 4242 unit And Ineed more.I don’t “think” the video takes a hit by using the preamp as my switcher and then send video to the LRP. I have been A-B’ing the 2 scenarios and I don’t see any Issues or difference. I know my question has been discussed many times but my search for an opinion has been less than great. Just wanting an opinion from the experts.
thanks


----------



## docrog

Bill DePalma said:


> I am wondering what the consensus is in regards to letting the LRP do the switching and send audio only to the the audio processor. While the approved method is fine and I don’t have any audio dropouts or other issues while using it, but I only 4 inputs on my 4242 unit And I need more. I don’t “think” the video takes a hit by using the preamp as my switcher and then send video to the LRP. I have been A-B’ing the 2 scenarios and I don’t see any Issues or difference. I know my question has been discussed many times but my search for an opinion has been less than great. Just wanting an opinion from the experts.
> thanks


I've encountered absolutely ZERO problems using my Denon 6700X AVR as the switcher for my RP 4240. Plus, you'll regain use of the AVR's GUI overlay which is lost when the RP is the video switcher. The key is making sure that your AVR is current enough to "pass through" the video without adding any video processing.


----------



## Bill DePalma

docrog said:


> I've encountered absolutely ZERO problems using my Denon 6700X AVR as the switcher for my RP 4240. Plus, you'll regain use of the AVR's GUI overlay which is lost when the RP is the video switcher. The key is making sure that your AVR is current enough to "pass through" the video without adding any video processing.


that is good to hear. Mine is a Marantz, processing off. More inputs and the GUI. It is the way I have been using my system for awhile too but last night I thought I would switch it up and go the other way and it looked great but actually it always looks great, so I will go back to switching with the Marantz. Thanks for your input


----------



## jbrinegar

Bill DePalma said:


> I am wondering what the consensus is in regards to letting the LRP do the switching and send audio only to the the audio processor. While the approved method is fine and I don’t have any audio dropouts or other issues while using it, but I only 4 inputs on my 4242 unit And Ineed more.I don’t “think” the video takes a hit by using the preamp as my switcher and then send video to the LRP. I have been A-B’ing the 2 scenarios and I don’t see any Issues or difference. I know my question has been discussed many times but my search for an opinion has been less than great. Just wanting an opinion from the experts.
> thanks


I prefer using my anthem avr as the switcher so I can keep my anthem osd. Works perfectly fine for me, and I notice no difference in video quality vs using my LRP as the switcher.


----------



## Erod

I use my LRP for switching, but it doesnt matter which way you do it. No impact on image if you have a reasonable AV processor. 

However, I have a HTP-1, so there is no OSD or any benefit for me that route. I only have four sources I use...DirecTV, bluray, Roku, and XBOX X. So my 4242 is enough.


----------



## docrog

Bill DePalma said:


> that is good to hear. Mine is a Marantz, processing off. More inputs and the GUI. It is the way I have been using my system for awhile too but last night I thought I would switch it up and go the other way and it looked great but actually it always looks great, so I will go back to switching with the Marantz. Thanks for your input


FYI, I have an inexpensive Roku stick (it could be FireTV, Chrome Stick, etc.) as 1 of my video inputs to the Denon which I designate as 1080p (irrespective of whether or not that streaming device is 4K compatible). This allows the RP to perform more superior upscaling of 1080p source material to 4K than what would be accomplished with my Roku Ultra or ATV4K doing the upscaling.


----------



## ahmedhaff

bobof said:


> It is universal for a given EDID.
> But! What you are doing is slightly out of the standard...
> The AppleTV remembers a whole different set of video settings for each EDID it sees (up to some limit).
> So you have to enable match rate both with the 1080p EDID and for the 4K EDID being sent.
> Obviously, when you are sending the 1080p EDID, you can't have the Apple TV UI set to 4K SDR 23.98... So at least some of what you post must be incomplete info.
> 
> My recollection is that by default on seeing a new EDID the AppleTV disables rate switching, you have to enable it for each EDID.
> 
> Check to see what is happening on the input of the Lumagen in each case by pressing OK/Enter to bring up the info screen. If the 1080p input to the Lumagen is at 24p for 24p content, and the Lumagen output is 60p, then it's a Lumagen config issue (which you should be able to setup in the Output menus). You can configure it for each refresh rate to output whatever rate you would like, just make sure you pay attention to the memory column to make sure you are only changing it for the particular memory you care about


Thanks. Fixed it - you were right, when in memB, I went to the ATV4K settings, and the re


bobof said:


> It is universal for a given EDID.
> But! What you are doing is slightly out of the standard...
> The AppleTV remembers a whole different set of video settings for each EDID it sees (up to some limit).
> So you have to enable match rate both with the 1080p EDID and for the 4K EDID being sent.
> Obviously, when you are sending the 1080p EDID, you can't have the Apple TV UI set to 4K SDR 23.98... So at least some of what you post must be incomplete info.
> 
> My recollection is that by default on seeing a new EDID the AppleTV disables rate switching, you have to enable it for each EDID.
> 
> Check to see what is happening on the input of the Lumagen in each case by pressing OK/Enter to bring up the info screen. If the 1080p input to the Lumagen is at 24p for 24p content, and the Lumagen output is 60p, then it's a Lumagen config issue (which you should be able to setup in the Output menus). You can configure it for each refresh rate to output whatever rate you would like, just make sure you pay attention to the memory column to make sure you are only changing it for the particular memory you care about


Thak


bobof said:


> It is universal for a given EDID.
> But! What you are doing is slightly out of the standard...
> The AppleTV remembers a whole different set of video settings for each EDID it sees (up to some limit).
> So you have to enable match rate both with the 1080p EDID and for the 4K EDID being sent.
> Obviously, when you are sending the 1080p EDID, you can't have the Apple TV UI set to 4K SDR 23.98... So at least some of what you post must be incomplete info.
> 
> My recollection is that by default on seeing a new EDID the AppleTV disables rate switching, you have to enable it for each EDID.
> 
> Check to see what is happening on the input of the Lumagen in each case by pressing OK/Enter to bring up the info screen. If the 1080p input to the Lumagen is at 24p for 24p content, and the Lumagen output is 60p, then it's a Lumagen config issue (which you should be able to setup in the Output menus). You can configure it for each refresh rate to output whatever rate you would like, just make sure you pay attention to the memory column to make sure you are only changing it for the particular memory you care about


Thanks. This fixed it - you were right, on memB, I went back to ATV4K settings, and while the resolution was showing 1080, match frame/range were indeed off. Setting them on fixed it.


----------



## GerryWaz

sjschaff said:


> I only have 9ghz cards in my Lumagen Pro. Kris Deering came by a few months ago to calibrate my Lumagen Pro to JVC RS500 setup. I will caution that we did not work on the Nvidia source at all. Just used UHD discs on my Panasonic 900 and previous JVC settings performed by another calibrator.
> 
> The reason for the particular setting is that I received this information from Kris. The recommendations came from a friend of his, as settings to use for the Nvidia Shield.
> 
> Here are the full details I received:
> 
> In the NVidia Shield Settings Menu:
> 1) Set the default GUI resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Resolution > Set to 4K 59.940 Hz.
> 2) Set the default color space and resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Advanced Settings > HDMI Settings > Choose 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709.
> 3) Next enable developers options: Go to - Settings > About > Build > Click seven times on build to become a developer (you will see a toast which will say you are now a developer).
> 4) Set color space switching: Go to - Settings > Developer Options > Colorimetry (set toggle to ON) > restart the NVidia Shield for changes to take effect. Colorimetry is under “HDMI” and is pretty far down the menu, there are a lot of options before it.
> 5) Restart the NVidia Shield.
> 
> In The Kodi Settings Menu:
> 1) Set Kodi to “Expert” mode: Go to - Settings > System > Click on the gear icon at the bottom of the list until it shows “Expert.”
> 2) Set Kodi to resolution switching: Go to - Settings > System > Display > Whitelist and then enable ALL of the resolutions displayed. Click “OK.”
> 
> Your experience and thoughts on this are appreciated. I can obviously also provide any other Lumagen settings or Nvidia as well, beyond what you see above. My communication with JRP suggests that the Lumagen is configurable to handle most anything and that it may well be a fault with the Nvidia at possibly a hardware level in complying with spec.


Does anyone know if these recommended settings from over two years ago for using the NVidia Shield with the Radiance Pro still current for a 2019 NVidia Shield Pro with all the current updates?

TIA.


----------



## Golan Trevize

Hi guys,
I've finally reach a good enough HDR image on my projector (JVC NX7) through the radiance settings, the problem I have is that some UHD BD movies are spectacular (007 No Time To Die, John wick 2, Avengers Endgame etc) but others have noticeably elevated blacks, I mean distracting and frankly unwatchable elevated blacks (007 Spectre and Venom there will be Carnage are a couple I remember but there are a lot).
Obviously the settings for the radiance and the projector are always the same, Gamma 2.4 on the projector and Radiance set to output HDR in an SDR container BT.2020.
Did you notice something similar too?
What would you recommend and which settings to correct? 

In the Radiance menu you can set black level and gamma in Output, Input menu or in the HDR Setup menu.
What would you do to lower the blacks but mantain a good and bright picture without loosing too much details in the blacks?
Is there an HDR settings that will allow the radiance to always visualize the correct and low black level for all the HDR movies?
Thanks


----------



## Gordon Fraser

I posted this over on the UK forum but a lot of my UK clients and International clients are on here, not on there. So thought i ought to stick this up here as well.

As we come to the end of 2021 i thought i’d just say thanks.

In my privileged world i get to work in many amazing homes and hear and see many amazing systems. Some of you may have heard my stories where NDA’s have not forbidden me from telling them. In these last two years since our lockdowns i’ve been involved in cinemas for rock stars, international film directors, film and games studios and the ultra wealthy, both in UK and abroad. Multi level basement cinemas with hundreds of thousands of pounds of kit in them, and amazing converted bedrooms in 7 figure flats. It is at times eye opening.

However the one thing i can always be assured of is that when i visit a forum members home i will be visiting someone who is as enthusiastic about image and sound quality as i am. Their room, be it with a solitary TV or a full blown external self build screening room, will be dedicated to giving them as much pleasure as possible and they will use them! It is these rooms, even when i have not supplied the actual audio and video kit, that are often my favourites and it is you, the forum members, who make my work such a joy. So thank you everyone and I hope you have a great holiday break, making good use of those rooms and kit you have spent your hard earned cash on. 

Stay safe, peace to you all and i hope to meet even more of you in 2022

Cheers!

Gordon


----------



## Chris5

Thank you Gordon. Cheers to you too and wish you many years of success. 
p.s. The calibration you did for me on Monday has made a huge improvement, even to my dodgy eyes.


----------



## jrp

Golan Trevize said:


> Hi guys,
> I've finally reach a good enough HDR image on my projector (JVC NX7) through the radiance settings, the problem I have is that some UHD BD movies are spectacular (007 No Time To Die, John wick 2, Avengers Endgame etc) but others have noticeably elevated blacks, I mean distracting and frankly unwatchable elevated blacks (007 Spectre and Venom there will be Carnage are a couple I remember but there are a lot).
> Obviously the settings for the radiance and the projector are always the same, Gamma 2.4 on the projector and Radiance set to output HDR in an SDR container BT.2020.
> Did you notice something similar too?
> What would you recommend and which settings to correct? ....


This is the same issue I discussed recently about movies with space scenes. We have seen movies where "black" level is not actually at true black (code 64 for 10-bit HDR).

If you have not, the first step is to set the "Optical Black" and then the "Digital Black" using the info in the Radiance Pro Slide Set (attached) to make sure you have an optimal black.

After you have Black dialed in to the optimal level (and a calibration completed assuming one is planned) I suggest you consider using a second memory (say MEMB), and in the Input Menu while MEMB is select reduce the Black level in the the Radiance Pro MENU->Input->Configs while watching the errant content. So, MEMA would be your correctly calibrated Black setting, and MEMB would be your "mitigate content with elevated black level" setting.

Since the content you are using MEMB for has elevated black levels, there is no content below the adjusted black to be "crushed." So, this should give you an improved image, without crushing content for these titles. Adjusting the black level has almost no effect on bright scenes, but should improve dark scenes for titles with elevated black levels.

After completing, select MEMA so it is the default at turn-on, and then do a Save. Then if you see the content you are watching has an elevated black, select MEMB. Then reselect MEMA for well "graded" content.


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## aguy

Merry Christmas from down under 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sjschaff

aguy said:


> Merry Christmas from down under
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> [/


----------



## audioguy

Merry Christmas to everyone. Remember "the reason for the season".


----------



## Geof

Audio Dropout Update
My original setup used both Radiance outputs for A+V - one output went to the theater and the other to a bedroom tv. I had one A+V connection from the Oppo to the Lumagen and when viewing UHD movies there were audio dropouts. The connection between the Oppo and Lumagen was with a 3m passive AVPro Bullet Train cable.

My new setup is the more typical setup where Lumagen Output 2 feeds the projector and Output 1 feeds the AVR. All sources connect to the Lumagen, with the exception of the Oppo whose Main output feeds the Lumagen but the audio output connects directly to the AVR. As before I used the 3m AVPro cable to connect Oppo Video to the Radiance. With this setup I had no dropouts thru several UHD movies.

Then my Apple 4K TV showed up. I decided to use the 3m AVPo cable and ‘stole it’ from the Oppo (it was the right length and a ‘proven cable’, or so I thought). It ‘failed’ almost immediately with A+V dropouts. I tried another cable and it worked perfectly thru two episodes of Bosch. Then I tried a 4k flick with 5.1 surround (Casino Royal). Ah, no-go on this as it experienced random dropouts (somewhat repeatable - around the crane-embassy scenes - I found this to be a good area to try different cables). After trying several more cables with no success I pulled a 4m AVPro Bullet Train from the setup and used it to connect the Apple TV to the 18Ghz Lumagen input. I am pretty confident this is the ‘final solution’ as I've now watched several 5.1 flicks along with a Dolby Atmos flick with no issues. 🤞

What I’ve learned (not plowing any new ground here):
Dropouts seem to occur when audio and video bandwidth are maxing out. Splitting the audio from video makes a huge difference. The Oppo is beautiful in this regard as I was able to try different cables for the Oppo video output - my 10' Belden 2K cable had no issues passing 4K [video only] from the Oppo (in fact that 2K Belden cable was markedly better than some monoprice 4K cables i tried). My experience has shown any dropouts are cable related. Sad to say, and somewhat expensive, as I have a pile of cables I’m just going to throw out. And, FWIW, I do not recommend the 3m AVPro bullet train cable - it was one of the worst of the cables I tried.

Happy Holidays!


----------



## Clark Burk

Geof said:


> Then my Apple 4K TV showed up. I decided to use the 3m AVPo cable and ‘stole it’ from the Oppo (it was the right length and a ‘proven cable’, or so I thought). It ‘failed’ almost immediately with A+V dropouts. I tried another cable and it worked perfectly thru two episodes of Bosch. Then I tried a 4k flick with 5.1 surround (Casino Royal). Ah, no-go on this as it experienced random dropouts (somewhat repeatable - around the crane-embassy scenes - I found this to be a good area to try different cables). After trying several more cables with no success I pulled a 4m AVPro Bullet Train from the setup and used it to connect the Apple TV to the 18Ghz Lumagen input. I am pretty confident this is the ‘final solution’ as I've now watched several 5.1 flicks along with a Dolby Atmos flick with no issues. 🤞
> What I’ve learned (not plowing any new ground here):
> Dropouts seem to occur when audio and video bandwidth are maxing out. Splitting the audio from video makes a huge difference. The Oppo is beautiful in this regard as I was able to try different cables for the Oppo video output - my 10' Belden 2K cable had no issues passing 4K [video only] from the Oppo (in fact that 2K Belden cable was markedly better than some monoprice 4K cables i tried). My experience has shown any dropouts are cable related. Sad to say, and somewhat expensive, as I have a pile of cables I’m just going to throw out. And, FWIW, I do not recommend the 3m AVPro bullet train cable - it was one of the worst of the cables I tried.


Seems odd the 3m AVPo cable would not work but the 4m AVPro cable would. To me it sounds like the 3m cable may be defective.


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> Seems odd the 3m AVPo cable would not work but the 4m AVPro cable would. To me it sounds like the 3m cable may be defective.


I do think it was responsible for my original problems way back when but I do not think it is defective. There is a big change in the diameter of the cable between the 3m and 4m cables. If they used the same cable I'd tend to agree but I think they pushed their smaller diameter cable 1 meter too far (so to speak).


----------



## sjschaff

Only real way to find out whether it's cable vs. Lumagen would be to actually "monitor" the bit stream throughout the process from end to end and test alternative modes of connection. Like many others once I put the audio processor before the Lumagen I've not had any audio dropouts and video passing through has no dropouts as well. Seems to point a finger at some weakness in just how the Lumagen is handling the audio stream. Quite perplexing...


----------



## Geof

sjschaff said:


> Only real way to find out whether it's cable vs. Lumagen would be to actually "monitor" the bit stream throughout the process from end to end and test alternative modes of connection. Like many others once I put the audio processor before the Lumagen I've not had any audio dropouts and video passing through has no dropouts as well. Seems to point a finger at some weakness in just how the Lumagen is handling the audio stream. Quite perplexing...


Well I do have to say that the Lumagen is, without doubt, the fussiest box regarding HDMI cables that I've dealt with, and it certainly favors long cables.


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## sjschaff

Well going to the projector I'd venture to say, after following the many trials and tribulations many have had, it would appear that aspect of problems have diminished to a very great extent. Clearly few are using anything short of 4-5 meters, and many have gone with the certified ones Jim has recommended. It's only in the area of using the Lumagen's HDMI output 1for audio that problems exist. Some tools to track the bitstream would be helpful...


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## Geof

I guess our experiences differ. The cable issues I've had are input cables (18Ghz inputs).


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## sjschaff

Ah...but were you only having issues with specific input devices or all when using the "problem" cable? And in cases where you were experiencing dropouts was it specific data formats, like the containers or codecs of the source material?


----------



## Geof

sjschaff said:


> Ah...but were you only having issues with specific input devices or all when using the "problem" cable? And in cases where you were experiencing dropouts was it specific data formats, like the containers or codecs of the source material?


I had dropouts from 4K sources. No dropouts on DirecTv. Different cables although the 3m cable is indicted twice, but was not the only problem child. As Jim states, 3-4 meter cables are preferred. I can pretty much say that is what I saw. And I don't know about containers or codecs but the dropouts I experienced all were on HDR movies with 5.1 or Atmos or DTS. This was the case on the Oppo as well as the Apple 4K TV. Now when I connected the oppo Audio HDMI cable to the AVR even the "problem 3m cable" worked perfectly for video to the Lumagen thru several movies (I didn't" watch further, there were no incidents).

It is clear that the 3m cable works great for V but not for V+A (again it failed with the Oppo V+A and the AppleTV but worked fine for oppo V only) -- This is for UHD + 5.1
Now it gets interesting because that same problem 3m cable worked fine thru several UHD episodes of Bosch (NOT 5.1). So it seems at some point the cable no longer supports the required data rate. In the case of the Apple TV I did not have another 3m cable to try but several 1m and a 2m cables had dropouts as well (again only with UHD and 5.1+ audio). I tried a 15' 8K cable that worked perfectly along with the 4m AVPro which is what I settled on using.


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## sjschaff

So in your testing you feel it's the cables rather than the target source on the Lumagen that's the issue, nor the transfer from the Lumagen output to the audio processor. For others, like myself, the problem is not the cables but how the Lumagen is handling and parsing out the bitstream to downstream audio devices.


----------



## Geof

sjschaff said:


> So in your testing you feel it's the cables rather than the target source on the Lumagen that's the issue, nor the transfer from the Lumagen output to the audio processor. For others, like myself, the problem is not the cables but how the Lumagen is handling and parsing out the bitstream to downstream audio devices.


The only conclusion I've reached is all of my dropouts can be traced to cables. And the problem is sneaky because it can work most of the time but then it happens. I am confident lower BW audio [or no audio] reduces [or eliminates] the possibility of a dropout. Now is this a Lumagen issue or a cable issue ? To be frank I don't know. I have many years of engineering experience and this sounds like a termination issue to me but I don't have enough 'data' to draw any firm conclusions other than a longer cable works.
(I am curious as hell as to what the waveforms look like with the various cables).


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## sjschaff

Reminds me of days spent performing a packet trace of Ethernet data, trying to figure out how errors were being propagated or caused in computer networks. Not fond of that time on the job.


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## Erod

Been having audio dropouts and video flashing on DirecTV the past few days. Thought I had solved that long ago. 

About time to give up on the Lumagen as an HDMI switcher and just go through the processor first.


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## sjschaff

Erod said:


> Been having audio dropouts and video flashing on DirecTV the past few days. Thought I had solved that long ago.
> 
> About time to give up on the Lumagen as an HDMI switcher and just go through the processor first.


You might want to simply try disconnecting and reconnecting the HDMI cable from the DirecTV to the Lumagen a few times to see if it's just a connection issue. I recall Jim suggesting this in the past. And trying to do the same with the other end -- the HDMI cable connection at the DirecTV end of things. If that fails, swapping cables from other input devices to see if the cable itself is somehow at fault. Other possibility would be the power conversion (AC to DC) for the DirecTV unit, so powering off and then on. I know...grasping at straws.


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## asharma

Erod said:


> Been having audio dropouts and video flashing on DirecTV the past few days. Thought I had solved that long ago.
> 
> About time to give up on the Lumagen as an HDMI switcher and just go through the processor first.


I’ve been using my Anthem AVR as a switcher since Day 1, no issues with drop outs…


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## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> Been having audio dropouts and video flashing on DirecTV the past few days. Thought I had solved that long ago.
> 
> About time to give up on the Lumagen as an HDMI switcher and just go through the processor first.


Maybe its an issue with your DirecTV box


----------



## Kris Deering

I mentioned it could be the source because I see so many on this thread always assume immediately that ANY problem, especially audio, is always the fault of the Lumagen. Then I go over to the Trinnov thread and see people talking about audio drop out issues with various sources that are not even using Lumagen's. Then I talk to clients on the phone that are having audio and video drop out issues that don't have Lumagen processors. Guess what? HDMI sucks and causes issues with A LOT of different setup chains that have nothing to do with the Lumagen. A couple weeks ago I was at a client's house that is a VERY high up at a cable manufacturer (that is one the BIG ones) that installed a new JVC projector (NX series) in his theater and wanted me to come by and help with some settings and such. When I got there he was tearing his hair out about video AND audio issues despite changing NOTHING except the projector. We did a bunch of troubleshooting and found out that the cable going from his pre-pro to the projector was causing issues that were effecting multiple input sources to his Anthem. We swapped the cable and then everything worked fine. Then he started having issues with a source and we figured out that he was using one of the latest 8K cables they were offering (one of their flagship cables) and by swapping that with a simple cable I had in my bag fixed that completely too. 

I had another client recently that was up in arms about the video saying the Lumagen was screwing things up and he was getting a lot of stuttering with the Lumagen across all sources. I told him some things that may be the issue and he was insistent that it was the Lumagen. Come to find out it was not on every source and that it was a problem with the app in his Shield doing frame rate conversion on 24p sources. The list goes on and on and on........

I think I may get one audio drop randomly maybe once a month or less. It is typically always from a streaming source like my AppleTV (which I get people having trouble with in lots of setups without a Lumagen quite frequently), though it has happened with my Strato at some point. But to say this is rare is a HUGE understatement. I've said it before, there is absolutely no way I would use or sell this product if it was as unreliable with HDMI as many here make it sound like. I can count on one hand (and have a few fingers left) how many clients I have that have had audio issues that I couldn't resolve and even the ones I couldn't I am suspicious about when it comes to whether they are truly doing everything they say/I tell them to try. I've just been to too many houses that have "done what you asked" only to find out they certainly have not or had other things going on that they completely failed to mention (HDMI loop backs with their AVR for OSD, separate monitors plugged in, etc).


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## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I think I may get one audio drop randomly maybe once a month or less. It is typically always from a streaming source like my AppleTV


I wish I had the same experience (although I think one audio drop a month is still too frequent). Whenever I use my Oppo 203 or my Sony x800m2 or my AppleTV with a "hi res" soundtrack (i.e. Atmos), I get 2-3 audio drops per film. It's fairly consistent.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

fatherom said:


> I wish I had the same experience (although I think one audio drop a month is still too frequent). Whenever I use my Oppo 203 or my Sony x800m2 or my AppleTV with a "hi res" soundtrack (i.e. Atmos), I get 2-3 audio drops per film. It's fairly consistent.


Well just move the lumagen out of the audio path. Pretty simple.


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## fatherom

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Well just move the lumagen out of the audio path. Pretty simple.


It currently is (and I haven't had any drop outs)...but doing so does create a few (admittedly small) disadvantages/considerations.

1) If I were to put the AVR at the head of the chain and make it the switcher, I lose the ability to have the Lumagen do the switching (essentially only using one physical input on the Lumagen). Currently, I'm still using the Lumagen as the switcher, but using the dedicated audio outs on my disc players (and never have any audio drops)..
2) By not having the Lumagen in the audio path, I lose any jitter benefits the Lumagen may be adding.
3) Lip sync settings will be different (not saying that's worse or better) with the Lumagen in the audio path vs not in the audio path.

My Apple TV doesn't have dual HDMI outputs, so if I watch a movie on that, and it has Atmos, I usually get at least one dropout per film.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Understand all that. But what’s the alternative? have to weigh it up I guess


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## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> I wish I had the same experience (although I think one audio drop a month is still too frequent). Whenever I use my Oppo 203 or my Sony x800m2 or my AppleTV with a "hi res" soundtrack (i.e. Atmos), I get 2-3 audio drops per film. It's fairly consistent.


sounds like something is going on in your setup for sure.


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## appelz

My experiences are about the same as what Kris said. I calibrate around 100 rooms a year. I don't manage all of those projects, as quite a few have local integrators, but some of those clients still call me if something goes sideways, since I touched it last, and often, have a deeper experience and knowledge base. And luckily, I just don't get many phone calls!


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> sounds like something is going on in your setup for sure.


Yeah, definitely.

I've worked with Jim here/there trying to nail it down, and chatted with you about it a couple times as well. It's not a super-mega-priority since I have a workaround that works most of the time (using the dedicated hdmi audio outs on my players). But I have tried the different cables and some physical configuration changes and lumagen settings changes. Nothing yet has eliminated the problem, unfortunately. I would definitely love to solve it at some point, if possible.


----------



## tomasg

jrp said:


> Content Programmed output aspect in Lumagen Output Style Style0 menu:
> 4:3 1.90
> 16:9 1.90
> 1.90 1.90
> 2.00 2.00 (about 5% horizontal stretch)
> 2.20 2.20 (about 5% vertical stretch)
> 2.35 2.35 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
> 2.40 2.40 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
> 
> 
> If you want to mix in NLS for the 16:9 content to fill the 2.1 screen, using auto-aspect, select "NLS when applicable," and set the output aspect to the actual 2.10 aspect ratio for 16:9 content in the output Style0 aspect menu. Then make sure to adjust the center section stretch to about 10% for the 16:9 content.


I set output aspect as above. But how can I set for each aspect ratio stretch or crop?
Do you have settings from that 2.1:1 installations for import?
Thank you


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## KorbenDallas2021

Kris Deering said:


> I think I may get one audio drop randomly maybe once a month or less. It is typically always from a streaming source like my AppleTV (which I get people having trouble with in lots of setups without a Lumagen quite frequently), though it has happened with my Strato at some point.


Your tolerance for audio drop outs is far greater than mine and I expect many others. The only number of acceptable drop outs is zero. The number that can be achieved by taking the lumagen out of the audio chain, e.g. by using source audio out or AVR as your switch. Cable changes can sometimes help as shown, but for many that clearly hasn’t worked.


----------



## jqmn

Well my LRP is out of the audio chain and I still get a non-streamer audio dropout here or there. My more frustrating problem is the HDMI synch issue (cross hatch diamonds) which I get now with constant start-up or switchover frequency. Most recent case in point, A Firestick connected directly to the LRP. Watching 4K content. Press Home on Firestick remote to see if there is better audio on Vudu instead of Amazon. BAM. Lockup with diamonds. I have programmed the LRP to downscale the Amazon GUI to 1080p60 as I thought the diamond graphic indicated a problem with 4K 50/60 and was trying to eliminate this issue. The projector shows it is correctly receiving 1080p60 as output from the LRP but there is nothing I can do except play the on/off- switch-input-on-every-device until I get synch again. So this tells me there isn't a cable problem between the LRP and the projector and there certainly isn't one between a hard plugged AFS and the LRP. The only other HDMI cable in play is the audio one out of the LRP to the A32. Any ideas to fix this?? Thank-you.


----------



## Clark Burk

jqmn said:


> Well my LRP is out of the audio chain and I still get a non-streamer audio dropout here or there. My more frustrating problem is the HDMI synch issue (cross hatch diamonds) which I get now with constant start-up or switchover frequency. Most recent case in point, A Firestick connected directly to the LRP. Watching 4K content. Press Home on Firestick remote to see if there is better audio on Vudu instead of Amazon. BAM. Lockup with diamonds. I have programmed the LRP to downscale the Amazon GUI to 1080p60 as I thought the diamond graphic indicated a problem with 4K 50/60 and was trying to eliminate this issue. The projector shows it is correctly receiving 1080p60 as output from the LRP but there is nothing I can do except play the on/off- switch-input-on-every-device until I get synch again. So this tells me there isn't a cable problem between the LRP and the projector and there certainly isn't one between a hard plugged AFS and the LRP. The only other HDMI cable in play is the audio one out of the LRP to the A32. Any ideas to fix this?? Thank-you.


I was under the impression the checkerboard pattern meant an issue negotiating the HDMI. I know you hate to hear the check your cables pitch but it sounds like maybe your Firestick is trying to send a 4k 60p signal when you enter the Home Screen. Even though your Amazon is setup at 1080p60 if you go to Home Screen between input changes and it’s a high ghz signal you may be locking up the LRP. Check to see if you can change the Home Screen resolution on your Firestick to a lower ghz signal and do try a ultra certified cable if you haven’t already.
I’m in no way great at trouble shooting and I know how frustrating it can be with HDMI handshakes at times but just trying to help until you can get an answer from Jim at Lumagen or one of the other sharp members on this forum.


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## Clark Burk

One other recommendation for troubleshooting would be to bypass the Lumagen entirely and connect the Firestick directly to your monitor. If you get a black screen or out of sync indication you know it’s not the Lumagen.


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## Ian_Currie

What is the duration of these audio dropouts? More than a second?


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## Craig Peer

jqmn said:


> Well my LRP is out of the audio chain and I still get a non-streamer audio dropout here or there. My more frustrating problem is the HDMI synch issue (cross hatch diamonds) which I get now with constant start-up or switchover frequency. Most recent case in point, A Firestick connected directly to the LRP. Watching 4K content. Press Home on Firestick remote to see if there is better audio on Vudu instead of Amazon. BAM. Lockup with diamonds. I have programmed the LRP to downscale the Amazon GUI to 1080p60 as I thought the diamond graphic indicated a problem with 4K 50/60 and was trying to eliminate this issue. The projector shows it is correctly receiving 1080p60 as output from the LRP but there is nothing I can do except play the on/off- switch-input-on-every-device until I get synch again. So this tells me there isn't a cable problem between the LRP and the projector and there certainly isn't one between a hard plugged AFS and the LRP. The only other HDMI cable in play is the audio one out of the LRP to the A32. Any ideas to fix this?? Thank-you.


There has to be something else going on then. After I bypassed my Lumagen audio wise, I haven’t had an audio drop out in literally years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KorbenDallas2021

Ian_Currie said:


> What is the duration of these audio dropouts? More than a second?


Usually around 1-3 seconds, sound mutes then comes back. Some seem to get video stutter too IIRC. I’m using my AVR as the switch and haven’t had any since. I tired using the audio out again last time the firmware was updated but same drop outs, so went back.


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## sjschaff

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Usually around 1-3 seconds, sound mutes then comes back. Some seem to get video stutter too IIRC. I’m using my AVR as the switch and haven’t had any since. I tired using the audio out again last time the firmware was updated but same drop outs, so went back.


That’s been my experience as well. Since putting the “audio cart” before the Lumagen “horse” I’ve had no audio dropouts. Just a single cable from my audio processor into input one on the LRP, with all sources into the audio processor. Same cables.


----------



## jrp

jqmn said:


> Well my LRP is out of the audio chain and I still get a non-streamer audio dropout here or there. My more frustrating problem is the HDMI synch issue (cross hatch diamonds) which I get now with constant start-up or switchover frequency. Most recent case in point, A Firestick connected directly to the LRP. Watching 4K content. Press Home on Firestick remote to see if there is better audio on Vudu instead of Amazon. BAM. Lockup with diamonds. I have programmed the LRP to downscale the Amazon GUI to 1080p60 as I thought the diamond graphic indicated a problem with 4K 50/60 and was trying to eliminate this issue. The projector shows it is correctly receiving 1080p60 as output from the LRP but there is nothing I can do except play the on/off- switch-input-on-every-device until I get synch again. So this tells me there isn't a cable problem between the LRP and the projector and there certainly isn't one between a hard plugged AFS and the LRP. The only other HDMI cable in play is the audio one out of the LRP to the A32. Any ideas to fix this?? Thank-you.


The "Diamond-pattern" means the Radiance Pro could not validate HDCP compliance in the down-stream device (the TV/projector) within the maximum time allowed by the HDCP specification. If you have a stable diamond pattern, the video portion of HDMI is locked on and working, and the issue is only HDCP related.

The Radiance Pro output diamond pattern does not indicate issues on the Radiance Pro input side.

The Pro reports HDCP 2.2 back to sources unless programmed not to. If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector, then the diamond pattern can be caused by the source changing its output to HDCP 2.2 due to a change in its mode.

I think the most likely cause is the TV/projector is not restarting HDCP within the HDCP spec's maximum allowed time, after the Radiance Pro does an output restart. We have a test release I can send you a link for. The test release was done to help a very early Sony VW5000ES which needed more time before enabling HDCP after a restart. It can delay the HDCP turning back on after an output restart if the TV/projector is not able to do the HDCP fast enough.

Note that we plan to add the ability to delay-HDCP-turn-on in the next release. We do not want to delay HDCP turn on for the vast majority of devices that can validate HDCP in the allocated time since they would then have another video resync at that HDCP activate time. So we plan for this to be a user selection. 

If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector, or if you want to try the "HDCP activate delay" test release, or if you want to discuss further, contact me at the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## Kris Deering

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Your tolerance for audio drop outs is far greater than mine and I expect many others. The only number of acceptable drop outs is zero. The number that can be achieved by taking the lumagen out of the audio chain, e.g. by using source audio out or AVR as your switch. Cable changes can sometimes help as shown, but for many that clearly hasn’t worked.


What I am saying is that even WITHOUT a Lumagen, I see people reporting audio drop out issues all the time. So even that 1-2 dropouts I may be having a month could be from the source, not the Lumagen. Jim and I were talking about something completely unrelated recently that had us looking at HDFury devices and even they had a disclaimer saying that their device that took a single HDMI input in and split it to video and audio was prone to occasional audio drops due to how the clocking works. In other words, it happens with HDMI systems with or without Lumagen processors. I brought this discussion back up because the Trinnov thread was talking about audio dropout issues with AppleTV. I had a client a couple months ago reach out about buying a Lumagen but was going to hold off a couple months until his budget allowed for it. He had just put together a new setup. He reached out a couple weeks later saying that his AppleTV had been super stable since he put the system together and now all of a sudden was getting audio drops like every 15 minutes and even occassional video drops. He said he had been following the Lumagen thread for some time and if he had put a Lumagen in his chain at the beginning he would have sworn it was a Lumagen problem simply because it was stable for so long and now having issues, but he hadn't even ordered one yet. 

I'm certainly not saying that there are situations where the Lumagen isn't the culprit or the combination isn't causing something. Jim has repeatedly given advice on configurations and cabling to help mitigate as best as possible, but I also don't think that every problem people bring up here is because of the Lumagen.


----------



## sjschaff

Kris Deering said:


> What I am saying is that even WITHOUT a Lumagen, I see people reporting audio drop out issues all the time. So even that 1-2 dropouts I may be having a month could be from the source, not the Lumagen. Jim and I were talking about something completely unrelated recently that had us looking at HDFury devices and even they had a disclaimer saying that their device that took a single HDMI input in and split it to video and audio was prone to occasional audio drops due to how the clocking works. In other words, it happens with HDMI systems with or without Lumagen processors. I brought this discussion back up because the Trinnov thread was talking about audio dropout issues with AppleTV. I had a client a couple months ago reach out about buying a Lumagen but was going to hold off a couple months until his budget allowed for it. He had just put together a new setup. He reached out a couple weeks later saying that his AppleTV had been super stable since he put the system together and now all of a sudden was getting audio drops like every 15 minutes and even occassional video drops. He said he had been following the Lumagen thread for some time and if he had put a Lumagen in his chain at the beginning he would have sworn it was a Lumagen problem simply because it was stable for so long and now having issues, but he hadn't even ordered one yet.
> 
> I'm certainly not saying that there are situations where the Lumagen isn't the culprit or the combination isn't causing something. Jim has repeatedly given advice on configurations and cabling to help mitigate as best as possible, but I also don't think that every problem people bring up here is because of the Lumagen.


I would always suggest starting from the source. For some players, there are issues with codecs that, if not properly supported, will create all kinds of video problems (my curren Zappiti is a prime example). But I’ve been baffled as to why so many of us, using all the recommended cables and lengths, still run into these audio dropouts, which are so similar in their symptoms. And once we alter the arrangement, and put the audio processor ahead of the LRP, we never experience an audio dropout again.

By the way, I’m unclear on just what the difference is between Menu 0748 and Menu 0943. What does “toggle” mean for the latter item?


----------



## jqmn

jrp said:


> The "Diamond-pattern" means the Radiance Pro could not validate HDCP compliance in the down-stream device (the TV/projector) within the maximum time allowed by the HDCP specification. If you have a stable diamond pattern, the video portion of HDMI is locked on and working, and the issue is only HDCP related.
> 
> The Radiance Pro output diamond pattern does not indicate issues on the Radiance Pro input side.
> 
> The Pro reports HDCP 2.2 back to sources unless programmed not to. If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector, then the diamond pattern can be caused by the source changing its output to HDCP 2.2 due to a change in its mode.
> 
> I think the most likely cause is the TV/projector is not restarting HDCP within the HDCP spec's maximum allowed time, after the Radiance Pro does an output restart. We have a test release I can send you a link for. The test release was done to help a very early Sony VW5000ES which needed more time before enabling HDCP after a restart. It can delay the HDCP turning back on after an output restart if the TV/projector is not able to do the HDCP fast enough.
> 
> Note that we plan to add the ability to delay-HDCP-turn-on in the next release. We do not want to delay HDCP turn on for the vast majority of devices that can validate HDCP in the allocated time since they would then have another video resync at that HDCP activate time. So we plan for this to be a user selection.
> 
> If you have a HDCP 1.X TV/projector, or if you want to try the "HDCP activate delay" test release, or if you want to discuss further, contact me at the lumagen.com support email.


Thanks to you and @Clark Burk for responding. My projector is HDCP 2.2. Your comments have lead me to think about some other areas to also check; in the meantime I would be happy to try the firmware and will drop you an email.


----------



## MDesigns

jqmn said:


> *Well my LRP is out of the audio chain* and I still get a non-streamer audio dropout here or there. My more frustrating problem is the HDMI synch issue (cross hatch diamonds) which I get now with constant start-up or switchover frequency. Most recent case in point, A Firestick connected directly to the LRP. Watching 4K content. Press Home on Firestick remote to see if there is better audio on Vudu instead of Amazon. BAM. Lockup with diamonds. I have programmed the LRP to downscale the Amazon GUI to 1080p60 as I thought the diamond graphic indicated a problem with 4K 50/60 and was trying to eliminate this issue. The projector shows it is correctly receiving 1080p60 as output from the LRP but there is nothing I can do except play the on/off- switch-input-on-every-device until I get synch again. So this tells me there isn't a cable problem between the LRP and the projector and there certainly isn't one between a hard plugged AFS and the LRP. *The only other HDMI cable in play is the audio one out of the LRP to the A32*. Any ideas to fix this?? Thank-you.


There is a conflict on the bolded parts. How is it out of the audio chain if audio goes through it?


----------



## jqmn

MDesigns said:


> There is a conflict on the bolded parts. How is it out of the audio chain if audio goes through it?


Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer....I thought my comment that "...I still get non-streamer audio dropout here or there" indicated that for DVDs/BDs/UHDs the audio goes straight from the player into the audio processor; it does not pass thru the LRP. On the other hand the AFS streamer _is _hard plugged to the LRP so the LRP has audio out due to that input. So while watching a DVD this last weekend I had two audio drops. My conclusion, maybe wrongly, was that I can't try to implicate the LRP in those drops.

More on point, @jrp (super guy, that Jim) sent me the beta firmware for my "diamond screen" HDCP issue. It will take more testing but I did some switching back and forth after finishing a streamed movie and I did not get any HDCP issues. I will play some more today/tonight and hope it holds.🤞


----------



## Golan Trevize

jrp said:


> This is the same issue I discussed recently about movies with space scenes. We have seen movies where "black" level is not actually at true black (code 64 for 10-bit HDR).
> 
> If you have not, the first step is to set the "Optical Black" and then the "Digital Black" using the info in the Radiance Pro Slide Set (attached) to make sure you have an optimal black.
> 
> After you have Black dialed in to the optimal level (and a calibration completed assuming one is planned) I suggest you consider using a second memory (say MEMB), and in the Input Menu while MEMB is select reduce the Black level in the the Radiance Pro MENU->Input->Configs while watching the errant content. So, MEMA would be your correctly calibrated Black setting, and MEMB would be your "mitigate content with elevated black level" setting.
> 
> Since the content you are using MEMB for has elevated black levels, there is no content below the adjusted black to be "crushed." So, this should give you an improved image, without crushing content for these titles. Adjusting the black level has almost no effect on bright scenes, but should improve dark scenes for titles with elevated black levels.
> 
> After completing, select MEMA so it is the default at turn-on, and then do a Save. Then if you see the content you are watching has an elevated black, select MEMB. Then reselect MEMA for well "graded" content.


Wow, thanks for the reply.
Glad I'm not crazy seeing this, I'll try adjusting as you recommended.
The problem I have with the input MEM slots is that they are all already used for vertical shift switch and 2 HDR configurations I have created to avoid blown out whites in some movies (it is the only solution I could find...).
I'll try anyway.

Thanks again


----------



## Kris Deering

More fun, I decided to check out the official AppleTV owners thread today. The entire last page is people talking about various audio drop outs in different content and trying to figure out how to eliminate it. None of them are using Lumagen products. As I mentioned before, all the audio dropouts I've had over the last couple months (maybe 2-3 at most) have bene while watching content from an AppleTV. I can't remember the last time I got one from my Strato and I honestly don't know if I've EVER had one from my Oppo. I know the Strato was giving me some fits for awhile with DTS, but that was a Trinnov issue. They sent me some beta firmware that eliminated that for the most part, I think I've had maybe one or two DTS drops since then (can't remember it has been so long).


----------



## wjchan

Kris Deering said:


> More fun, I decided to check out the official AppleTV owners thread today. The entire last page is people talking about various audio drop outs in different content and trying to figure out how to eliminate it. None of them are using Lumagen products. As I mentioned before, all the audio dropouts I've had over the last couple months (maybe 2-3 at most) have bene while watching content from an AppleTV. I can't remember the last time I got one from my Strato and I honestly don't know if I've EVER had one from my Oppo. I know the Strato was giving me some fits for awhile with DTS, but that was a Trinnov issue. They sent me some beta firmware that eliminated that for the most part, I think I've had maybe one or two DTS drops since then (can't remember it has been so long).


Netflix was dropping audio every few minutes and restarting my Apple TV fixed it.


----------



## sjschaff

Can anyone suggest an answer to this:

I’m unclear on just what the difference is between Menu 0748 and Menu 0943. What does each do, precisely? Are there any specific input settings that can be used to control EDID on a per input basis?

What does “toggle” mean for the 0943?


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> More fun, I decided to check out the official AppleTV owners thread today. The entire last page is people talking about various audio drop outs in different content and trying to figure out how to eliminate it. None of them are using Lumagen products. As I mentioned before, all the audio dropouts I've had over the last couple months (maybe 2-3 at most) have bene while watching content from an AppleTV. I can't remember the last time I got one from my Strato and I honestly don't know if I've EVER had one from my Oppo. I know the Strato was giving me some fits for awhile with DTS, but that was a Trinnov issue. They sent me some beta firmware that eliminated that for the most part, I think I've had maybe one or two DTS drops since then (can't remember it has been so long).


But none of us who have had drop outs on here have had apple as the problem.

Honestly Kris, one day someone will finally admit that the lumagen does causes problems with audio drop outs for some people, which when removed out of the audio chain, they miraculously stop. I’ve gone 2 months without a dropout now since bypassing the RP, and yes, I tried every suggestion other than getting my whole house re wired.

Posting and blaming other things in the chain just antagonises all of us that have had hours upon hours of issues, generally at great expense of buying and trying multiple cables.

In MY setup, the RP 100% introduces audio dropouts, my old 4242 did too.


----------



## DigitalAV

Golan Trevize said:


> Wow, thanks for the reply.
> Glad I'm not crazy seeing this, I'll try adjusting as you recommended.
> The problem I have with the input MEM slots is that they are all already used for vertical shift switch and 2 HDR configurations I have created to avoid blown out whites in some movies (it is the only solution I could find...).
> I'll try anyway.
> 
> Thanks again


You could maybe use an unused "virtual input" to get more MEM slots.

Like let's say you have four physical inputs and your UHD BD player is using physical input 4. You can use "virtual" input 5, copy all your settings from input 4, and assign physical input 4 to it. Then, you can change the MEMs for input 5 to include Jim's suggestions.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark Burton said:


> But none of us who have had drop outs on here have had apple as the problem.
> 
> Honestly Kris, one day someone will finally admit that the lumagen does causes problems with audio drop outs for some people, which when removed out of the audio chain, they miraculously stop. I’ve gone 2 months without a dropout now since bypassing the RP, and yes, I tried every suggestion other than getting my whole house re wired.
> 
> Posting and blaming other things in the chain just antagonises all of us that have had hours upon hours of issues, generally at great expense of buying and trying multiple cables.
> 
> In MY setup, the RP 100% introduces audio dropouts, my old 4242 did too.


Not blaming other things, just saying other things can have issues on their own outside of the Lumagen. I just see people on here ALWAYS blaming the Lumagen when it could be other factors. Audio dropouts effect a minuscule amount of my clients and nearly all of them have been resolved with minor troubleshooting.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Mark Burton said:


> But none of us who have had drop outs on here have had apple as the problem.
> 
> Honestly Kris, one day someone will finally admit that the lumagen does causes problems with audio drop outs for some people, which when removed out of the audio chain, they miraculously stop. I’ve gone 2 months without a dropout now since bypassing the RP, and yes, I tried every suggestion other than getting my whole house re wired.
> 
> Posting and blaming other things in the chain just antagonises all of us that have had hours upon hours of issues, generally at great expense of buying and trying multiple cables.
> 
> In MY setup, the RP 100% introduces audio dropouts, my old 4242 did too.


It seems this is a problem they can’t solve without changing chip manufacturer or having the existing one lower the edge rates (or provide control over them).

I think if they just said “you know what, our edge rates are too high in some cases for some devices, we recommend using a longer cable, or if that doesn’t work use your processor as a switch” I think many people would just be happy with that. Many users here have done exactly this and 100% solved the issue.

Over the past few months it’s gone from “all the other vendors like Trinnov and Denon have poor design and your electricity supply is faulty” to “audio drop outs are normal and happen all over”.. it’s just nonsense, why even say this to someone who had completely eliminated them (100% not 2-3) for months and years by taking out the lumagen. It’s like trying to convince them the earth is flat, they know it isn’t, it’s not even up for debate.

I suspect a change may be forced if JVC doesn’t make their NZ line compatible with the LRP. I know they could do, but if this is another edge rate issue they may go with being compatible with the more popular systems.. who knows.

Honestly, guys, I know these things are complex and happen to other non lumagen systems, nobody claims they don’t. The ones being discussed here are without any question, problems introduced using the audio out on the LRP. This is determined through conclusive testing and trying to convince us otherwise is just antagonistic.

We enjoy the video processing of our lumagen video processors, they’re great. Just be honest and folk will move on. Many already have but it’s lumagen themselves who discourage using the AVR as the switch yet I don’t really understand why.


----------



## MOberhardt

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> .
> 
> We enjoy the video processing of our lumagen video processors, they’re great. Just be honest and folk will move on. Many already have but it’s lumagen themselves who discourage using the AVR as the switch yet I don’t really understand why.


Same. I honestly never considered using anything other than my AVR for switching. My interest in the Lumagen is purely video processing, not switching and not audio processing.


----------



## DigitalAV

@jrp would it be possible to add a future release feature to automatically change HDR settings based on the source material's max nits? I'm finding a higher MaxLight works better with 4000 max nits material and lower MaxLight with 1000 max nits material, as an example. Thanks for your consideration.


----------



## tigerhonaker

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> It seems this is a problem they can’t solve without changing chip manufacturer or having the existing one lower the edge rates (or provide control over them).
> 
> I think if they just said “you know what, our edge rates are too high in some cases for some devices, we recommend using a longer cable, or if that doesn’t work use your processor as a switch” I think many people would just be happy with that. Many users here have done exactly this and 100% solved the issue.
> 
> Over the past few months it’s gone from “all the other vendors like Trinnov and Denon have poor design and your electricity supply is faulty” to “audio drop outs are normal and happen all over”.. it’s just nonsense, why even say this to someone who had completely eliminated them (100% not 2-3) for months and years by taking out the lumagen. It’s like trying to convince them the earth is flat, they know it isn’t, it’s not even up for debate.
> 
> I suspect a change may be forced if JVC doesn’t make their NZ line compatible with the LRP. I know they could do, but if this is another edge rate issue they may go with being compatible with the more popular systems.. who knows.
> 
> Honestly, guys, I know these things are complex and happen to other non lumagen systems, nobody claims they don’t. The ones being discussed here are without any question, problems introduced using the audio out on the LRP. This is determined through conclusive testing and trying to convince us otherwise is just antagonistic.
> 
> We enjoy the video processing of our lumagen video processors, they’re great. Just be honest and folk will move on. Many already have but it’s lumagen themselves who discourage using the AVR as the switch yet I don’t really understand why.


For what it's worth from another AVS member here is the way my Lumagen is hooked-up.

It was Highly suggested I have my Calibrator use the New Lumagen for all Switching which of course would have been Audio & Video.

*I chose not to do that .........*

And the main reason I didn't use the Lumagen for (All the Switching) was I wanted to retain my on-screen information from my Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.

I'm posting now to add maybe something helpful to other AVS members that have the Lumagen.

*I Do-Not have Any Audio-Drop-Outs guys at all and never have.*

All my switching is done through the Marantz ............

Maybe this post might be of some benefit to others hopefully.

*I have the JVC RS4500 laser projector not the Newest JVC 4100 series !!!*

Terry


----------



## DigitalAV

tigerhonaker said:


> For what it's worth from another AVS member here is the way my Lumagen is hooked-up.
> 
> It was Highly suggested I have my Calibrator use the New Lumagen for all Switching which of course would have been Audio & Video.
> 
> *I chose not to do that .........*
> 
> And the main reason I didn't use the Lumagen for (All the Switching) was I wanted to retain my on-screen information from my Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
> 
> I'm posting now to add maybe something helpful to other AVS members that have the Lumagen.
> 
> *I Do-Not have Any Audio-Drop-Outs guys at all and never have.*
> 
> All my switching is done through the Marantz ............
> 
> Maybe this post might be of some benefit to others hopefully.
> 
> *I have the JVC RS4500 laser projector not the Newest JVC 4100 series !!!*
> 
> Terry


All well and good but for folks who've spent literally thousands more for 5XXX units with jitter reduction and 44XX units for extra inputs/future PiP/PoP output capability


----------



## Roland Janus

How good is autocalibration with Calman?


----------



## sjschaff

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water…









Another 'standard' is getting messier as HDMI 2.1a is announced


As if things weren't already enough of a mess with the various incompatibilities involved in the supposed USB-C standard, HDMI is about ...




9to5mac.com


----------



## Jue Liang

tigerhonaker said:


> For what it's worth from another AVS member here is the way my Lumagen is hooked-up.
> 
> It was Highly suggested I have my Calibrator use the New Lumagen for all Switching which of course would have been Audio & Video.
> 
> *I chose not to do that .........*
> 
> And the main reason I didn't use the Lumagen for (All the Switching) was I wanted to retain my on-screen information from my Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
> 
> I'm posting now to add maybe something helpful to other AVS members that have the Lumagen.
> 
> *I Do-Not have Any Audio-Drop-Outs guys at all and never have.*
> 
> All my switching is done through the Marantz ............
> 
> Maybe this post might be of some benefit to others hopefully.
> 
> *I have the JVC RS4500 laser projector not the Newest JVC 4100 series !!!*
> 
> Terry


I did the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.


----------



## rilyas77

tigerhonaker said:


> For what it's worth from another AVS member here is the way my Lumagen is hooked-up.
> 
> It was Highly suggested I have my Calibrator use the New Lumagen for all Switching which of course would have been Audio & Video.
> 
> *I chose not to do that .........*
> 
> And the main reason I didn't use the Lumagen for (All the Switching) was I wanted to retain my on-screen information from my Marantz AV8805 Pre-Amp Processor.
> 
> I'm posting now to add maybe something helpful to other AVS members that have the Lumagen.
> 
> *I Do-Not have Any Audio-Drop-Outs guys at all and never have.*
> 
> All my switching is done through the Marantz ............
> 
> Maybe this post might be of some benefit to others hopefully.
> 
> *I have the JVC RS4500 laser projector not the Newest JVC 4100 series !!!*
> 
> Terry


Hi

how you doing the switching. Are you putting all into AVR, then AVR out to say input 1 on lumagen and then output 2 on lumagen to say projector?


----------



## MDesigns

DigitalAV said:


> @jrp would it be possible to add a future release feature to automatically change HDR settings based on the source material's max nits? I'm finding a higher MaxLight works better with 4000 max nits material and lower MaxLight with 1000 max nits material, as an example. Thanks for your consideration.


IMO Maxlight should be a static setting based purely on measured display brightness. Now it is calculated with different factors, but it should really be changed to work with just the measured value. That way Lumagen could use the real brightness value and maybe adapt even better.
I believe there are other settings in tone mapping, have you tried changing those instead of the maxlight? Maybe those will help to get you where you don't have to change the maxlight.


----------



## MDesigns

rilyas77 said:


> Hi
> 
> how you doing the switching. Are you putting all into AVR, then AVR out to say input 1 on lumagen and then output 2 on lumagen to say projector?


Yes.


----------



## jrp

Okay, I will stop trying to convince those ignoring my earlier posts about audio dropouts. However, for others I will again present the facts:

The Radiance Pro output does have faster edge rates, but they are well within specification. The Radiance Pro has the lowest HDMI output jitter and lowest electrical noise as measured on the Tektronix $200000 HDMI tester, that the test person had ever measured. This was the 4XXX and the jitter on the 5348 is much lower than the 4XXX units. This Tektronix HDMI tester is one of only a few approved by HDMI.org for this testing. The Radiance Pro output is well within the HDMI specification. There is absolutely no need to consider different 4k HDMI chips.

All HDMI inputs are required to work correctly with outputs within the HDMI specification. This is also basic common sense. If they do not, it's on them. Again the Radiance Pro output is well within the HDMI specification.

We have thousands of Radiance Pro units in the field. The vast majority use the Radiance Pro for switching. Only a handful of systems using the Radiance Pro for switching have audio dropouts once optimal HDMI cables are in place. Said another way this means there are thousands of Radiance Pro based systems that do not have any audio or video dropout issues. If the Radiance Pro itself had audio dropout issues, this would _not_ be the case.

I can say that if there are audio or video dropouts, I believe without fail I get a call, or email, or there is a post here. When I talk to an end user or a dealer about a system, I try to always ask if there are any issues, such as dropouts (video or audio), to get as much feedback as I can. There are almost never dropouts once we have the optimal HDMI cables in place. Dealer and customer feedback bears this out. Obviously based on the few very vocal posters here there are some systems that continue to have audio dropouts. My best estimate is this is _significantly_ less than 1%.

I believe the majority of systems with continuing audio dropouts use high end audio processors, and a number of these use the same HDMI switch board. Both Trinnov and Storm Audio used to use this same switch board, but had enough issues (most systems did not have a Radiance Pro) that both company's switched to new HDMI switch boards. The reports I have are the Storm Audio processors no longer have dropout issues (including with the Radiance Pro audio output). I do not have a large data set for the new Trinnov HDMI input card, I can say reports are that the new card is a major improvement, and that I am not getting reports of audio dropouts using this new card on the Radiance Pro output (other than I think one on this forum but that might be the older Trinnov HDMI input card that has known issues).

We have a huge number of cases where switching to optimal HDMI cables has eliminated audio dropouts.

We have a good number of tests that when the high-end audio processor is temporarily swapped to a name-brand AVR (e.g. Sony, Marantz) that reports are audio dropouts stop occurring.

We have a large number of cases that switching audio from 720p to 9 GHz by also enabling video on the Radiance Pro output eliminated audio dropouts. Based on these field test results, I believe some 4k audio processors do not have the capture range to 100% lock on to a 720p HDMI signal for audio (also see below). Supporting all common audio formats using a 720p signal is an HDMI requirement that not all audio processor are meeting. This is not an easy task since it means support 720p up to 18 GHz in one design, but it is still a requirement.

As a side note, this is one reason why I recommend a 9 GHz output card for the 4242 since it allows Output 1 to have both audio and video and so run at 9 GHz. With the Pro's excellent output dither I see no visual difference between the 9 GHz and the 18 GHz output at 4k60, and for 4k24 both run at 9 GHz.

There is another more subtle HDMI audio requirement that I believe is part of the issue some audio processors have. Audio is carried as a non-coherent data stream on HDMI video. I will not belabor how dumb this choice was. We are stuck with it. Because of this, the audio clock is recreated using a "video-clock" divided by "audio-clock" ratio. In HDMI this is a huge integer for video-clock and a huge integer for the audio-clock. Since the audio and video have non-coherent clocks, this ratio _must_ be changed from time to time to maintain the audio data stream. By nature of how sources work this will change less when directly connected to a source then when adding an additional device, like the Radiance Pro. in series in the audio chain. I believe is it likely that direct from a source these will not need to be changed during an entire movie, and then at the end of the movie the ratio values from the source can change without impacting audio. Note that the ratio step-size effect on the audio processor internal PLL audio clock circuitry is larger at 720p than 9 GHz. I believe for the audio processors that have dropout issues with 720p, that the audio drop is likely coincident with this ratio changing. It is still incumbent on the audio processor to handle these ratio changes. My belief is the audio processors with issues are not adept at handling these changes.

=====

Finally, I feel the need to give people some information on my background to add some weight to my conclusions.

I have been designing high-speed transmission-line circuit boards for over 40 years. I have been designing DVI and HDMI circuit boards for 20 years. I have been on thousands of calls helping people with HDMI issues, many times this has been for systems without a Radiance. I apply engineering methods to each call trying to understand the cause. While people often blame the Radiance Pro, once we have solved the issue, it is almost never the Radiance Pro that is the source of the issue.

I understand transmission lines and what is required for circuit board designs using them. For the few designs from other manufacturers that I have been able to open up and look at, it is clear to me some HDMI circuit board designers do not understand circuit board design for transmission lines. Without proper HDMI transmission line design, there will likely be HDMI issues in those products.

These are the facts. You are free to ignore them if you wish.


----------



## joerod

I have the newest ATV 4K 21 and various other components like Nvidia Pro Shield and Roku Ultimate and Oppo 203…. McIntosh MX170 all being used with Audio Quest Cinnamon cables. Oh and lastly I use an Envy Extreme and I have had zero drop outs. Haven’t ever. It’s okay to admit your technology is being overtaken by the latest specs. It happens. To all companies sooner or later. It could be a perfect time to invest in an all new processor from the ground up?


----------



## Ash Sharma

joerod said:


> I have the newest ATV 4K 21 and various other components like Nvidia Pro Shield and Roku Ultimate and Oppo 203…. McIntosh MX170 all being used with Audio Quest Cinnamon cables. Oh and lastly I use an Envy Extreme and I have had zero drop outs. Haven’t ever. It’s okay to admit your technology is being overtaken by the latest specs. It happens. To all companies sooner or later. It could be a perfect time to invest in an all new processor from the ground up?


Joe,
Do you know how many Envy's are working in the field?
Are they 50 or 100 or less than 500??
That would be interesting to know.


----------



## jrp

joerod said:


> I have the newest ATV 4K 21 and various other components like Nvidia Pro Shield and Roku Ultimate and Oppo 203…. McIntosh MX170 all being used with Audio Quest Cinnamon cables. Oh and lastly I use an Envy Extreme and I have had zero drop outs. Haven’t ever. It’s okay to admit your technology is being overtaken by the latest specs. It happens. To all companies sooner or later. It could be a perfect time to invest in an all new processor from the ground up?


Wow. Great way to try to take a major failing of that product (one input) and twist it into a positive since it can't do the switching and so be in the audio path. Congrats.

Your comment about being overtaken is spurious at best. It does not even deserve a retort.

Please do your trolling someplace else where people might care.


----------



## Ilushka85

joerod said:


> I have the newest ATV 4K 21 and various other components like Nvidia Pro Shield and Roku Ultimate and Oppo 203…. McIntosh MX170 all being used with Audio Quest Cinnamon cables. Oh and lastly I use an Envy Extreme and I have had zero drop outs. Haven’t ever. It’s okay to admit your technology is being overtaken by the latest specs. It happens. To all companies sooner or later. It could be a perfect time to invest in an all new processor from the ground up?



Congrats bro. You paid 3x the cost to get an unproven envy that will maybe one day do everything lumagen does today... hopefully for 3x more your envy does more one day. Till then ill keep my money in my pocket to upgrade when the time is right.


----------



## joerod

jrp said:


> Wow. Great way to try to take a major failing of that product (one input) and twist it into a positive since it can't do the switching and so be in the audio path. Congrats.
> 
> Your comment about being overtaken is spurious at best. It does not even deserve a retort.
> 
> Please do your trolling someplace else where people might care.


Yet here you are replying to it? And not in a positive way either. It’s fine. I would say the exact same thing you did above if I were in your shoes. It was a friendly suggestion. If I were really trolling I would have also suggested improving that 1980s GUI on the next one but…. Back to the movies here!


----------



## Ilushka85

joerod said:


> Yet here you are replying to it? And not in a positive way either. It’s fine. I would say the exact same thing you did above if I were in your shoes. It was a friendly suggestion. If I were really trolling I would have also suggested improving that 1980s GUI on the next one but…. Back to the movies here!



Other then for setup... when is the last time you used your envy ui? If it was working well you should never see the ui... the person who setup your stuff should see it exactly once.


----------



## joerod

Ash Sharma said:


> Joe,
> Do you know how many Envy's are working in the field?
> Are they 50 or 100 or less than 500??
> That would be interesting to know.


I don't know but suspect it is far greater than what most people would think. The Envy is likely underrepresented in the forums so not likely a good indicator, because most of the customers are probably not DIY and posting in forums.


----------



## Ilushka85

joerod said:


> I don't know but suspect it is far greater than what most people would think. The Envy is likely underrepresented in the forums so not likely a good indicator, because most of the customers are probably not DIY and posting in forums.



Saw you are outside Chicago... me too where?


----------



## joerod

Ilushka85 said:


> Other then for setup... when is the last time you used your envy ui? If it was working well you should never see the ui... the person who setup your stuff should see it exactly once.


I enjoy tweaking from time to time. Improvement is always a good thing. To answer your question I saw the GUI two days ago when I received an alert that a new firmware build was available. I tapped on it and read what it included so I told it to go ahead and update. The update took about 20 seconds to download and install. Improved HDMI was included as well as a few other nice things. And yes the GUI is the best I have seen on any product by far…


----------



## Ilushka85

joerod said:


> I enjoy tweaking from time to time. Improvement is always a good thing. To answer your question I saw the GUI two days ago when I received an alert that a new firmware build was available. I tapped on it and read what it included so I told it to go ahead and update. The update took about 20 seconds to download and install. Improved HDMI was included as well as a few other nice things. And yes the GUI is the best I have seen on any product by far…


My point is that if you had two equally performing products.... you would not pay a premium for an improved UI thats barely ever used. A video processor is something that just needs to work and not be seen.


----------



## joerod

Ilushka85 said:


> Saw you are outside Chicago... me too where?


 I’ll send you a PM. I always enjoy doing a demo for anyone interested.


----------



## joerod

Ilushka85 said:


> My point is that if you had two equally performing products.... you would not pay a premium for an improved UI thats barely ever used. A video processor is something that just needs to work and not be seen.


To Some degree yes but when one of them has so many cool features and options to play with it is refreshing to have a beautiful GUI when exploring. Various image settings for different flavors. Not just for 4K HDR but also DirecTV and football. And now I have been playing with 8K. Anyway, I will not bore everyone here. Just was making a point about dropouts.


----------



## Ilushka85

joerod said:


> To Some degree yes but when one of them has so many cool features and options to play with it is refreshing to have a beautiful GUI when exploring. Various image settings for different flavors. Not just for 4K HDR but also DirecTV and football. And now I have been playing with 8K. Anyway, I will not bore everyone here. Just was making a point about dropouts.



I can tell you for my lumagen setup I paid Kris Deering to set it up once so I never needed to worry about it or care. Yes I can go tinker with it ... but why... there is no better way to configure it ... only worse.


----------



## Kris Deering

I can't see Joe's posts because I have him on block, but I've seen the comments so he's probably talking about the lack of audio issues (which isn't rocket science because the Envy is AFTER an audio processor). If someone wants to work a Lumagen like an Envy, they can do the exact same thing. Just buy the 4242 and put it after the output of the AVR/pre-pro and use it like the Envy (video only). This solution is also less than half the price of the Envy.


----------



## Ilushka85

Kris Deering said:


> I can't see Joe's posts because I have him on block, but I've seen the comments so he's probably talking about the lack of audio issues (which isn't rocket science because the Envy is AFTER an audio processor). If someone wants to work a Lumagen like an Envy, they can do the exact same thing. Just buy the 4242 and put it after the output of the AVR/pre-pro and use it like the Envy (video only). This solution is also less than half the price of the Envy.



Kris I priced both.... after discounts being offered on both... the lumagen is nearly 1/3 the price!


----------



## DigitalAV

joerod said:


> Yet here you are replying to it? And not in a positive way either. It’s fine. I would say the exact same thing you did above if I were in your shoes. It was a friendly suggestion. If I were really trolling I would have also suggested improving that 1980s GUI on the next one but…. Back to the movies here!


see below


----------



## Killroy

Kris Deering said:


> I can't see Joe's posts because I have him on block, but I've seen the comments so he's probably talking about the lack of audio issues (which isn't rocket science because the Envy is AFTER an audio processor). If someone wants to work a Lumagen like an Envy, they can do the exact same thing. Just buy the 4242 and put it after the output of the AVR/pre-pro and use it like the Envy (video only). This solution is also less than half the price of the Envy.


I guess I was missing it as well... I guess he's not aware of the Envy's (and MadVR's for that matter) DTM shortcoming, compared to the Lumagen, that have not been fixed almost a year after they were reported to them by me personally. With every single firmware the Envy gets I test those scenes and they have yet to be fixed (and my list of bad scenes on Madvr et.al continues to grow). While in the same time period, Jim and his paid developer are actually making progress in DTM quality.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

joerod said:


> To Some degree yes but when one of them has so many cool features and options to play with it is refreshing to have a beautiful GUI when exploring. Various image settings for different flavors. Not just for 4K HDR but also DirecTV and football. And now I have been playing with 8K. Anyway, I will not bore everyone here. Just was making a point about dropouts.


wow. Enjoy using your envy that can’t even output correct 23.97 frame rate and they have to drop frames during scene changes.

All systems mentioned here have their advantages and disadvantages.


----------



## DigitalAV

A defective child wanders in and antagonizes a brilliant engineer, ah avsforum dot com.

At least we get a current summary of each's pros & cons, albeit in the most brutal way possible. Just awful


----------



## joerod

DigitalAV said:


> A defective child wanders in and antagonizes a brilliant engineer, ah avsforum dot com.
> 
> At least we get a current summary of each's pros & cons, albeit in the most brutal way possible. Just awful


Defective? Really? Per usual instead of offering real answers the L faithful come running to defend their purchase at all costs… Yes at 1/3 the cost this is the best defense you’re (proper English) going to get. In life you get what you pay for. The absolute best always costs more. Sometimes three times more!


----------



## joerod

The only problems at homes are the ones with Lumagens.


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## aguy

@jrp

I’m just about to experiment with 4096 output. 

I’m wondering what the default sacking behaviour of the radiance pro is with 4096 output. 

For example. Consider the following example. I set all aspect ratios to 1.78 ( input and output ) and then feed a uhd input at 3840 x 2160. 

Then set the output to 4096 x 2160. 

What happens with scaling. As default does the lumagen add padding to the edges. Does it stretch horizontally but not vertically? ( hence changing the visible aspect ratio) or does it stretch horizontally and crop pixels from top and bottom to maintain the same visible aspect ratio)? 

Thanks Jim 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audioguy

Anyone seen one of these wandering around these parts?

View attachment 3216449


----------



## DigitalAV

MDesigns said:


> IMO Maxlight should be a static setting based purely on measured display brightness. Now it is calculated with different factors, but it should really be changed to work with just the measured value. That way Lumagen could use the real brightness value and maybe adapt even better.
> I believe there are other settings in tone mapping, have you tried changing those instead of the maxlight? Maybe those will help to get you where you don't have to change the maxlight.


Totally get what you're saying (global for a reason), will try digging deeper in the other settings to see what's what -- though fiddling with any other than the "quick" settings makes me feel cold & like there are wolves after me


----------



## aguy

asharma said:


> Thanks to everyone for your help…go it…a nice 13 percent boost in brightness using the RP to output 4096 to the JVC…I had to change shrink from 12 to 9.5 for some reason…3840 output=26.5FC, 4096 output=30.5FC! Nice!!! Thanks again


I am just setting this up on my Sony. 

I have also found that I need to drop shrink to 9.5. Curious as to the maths behind it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> We have a huge number of cases where switching to optimal HDMI cables has eliminated audio dropouts.
> …
> 
> We have a good number of tests that when the high-end audio processor is temporarily swapped to a name-brand AVR (e.g. Sony, Marantz) that reports are audio dropouts stop occurring.
> …
> We have a large number of cases that switching audio from 720p to 9 GHz by also enabling video on the Radiance Pro output eliminated audio dropouts.


What’s the process to switch the audio output to be 9Ghz ? Is this a hardware change?

I know a few of the worst affected are using Denon processors, the fix being go direct to the processor for audio. I’m using Tributaries cables, I’ve also tried audioquest chocolate and monoprice certified but hasn’t helped. I’m using a Denon AVC-X8500, I’ll give the 9Ghz audio a go if it’s not a hardware change.


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> How good is autocalibration with Calman?


to elaborate: a calibrator with no experience on the RP claims that the autocalibration feature is good and will result in a good calibration when used with the RP.
Can someone comment on that?


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> Okay, I will stop trying to convince those ignoring my earlier posts about audio dropouts. However, for others I will again present the facts:
> 
> The Radiance Pro output does have faster edge rates, but they are well within specification. The Radiance Pro has the lowest HDMI output jitter and lowest electrical noise as measured on the Tektronix $200000 HDMI tester, that the test person had ever measured. This was the 4XXX and the jitter on the 5348 is much lower than the 4XXX units. This Tektronix HDMI tester is one of only a few approved by HDMI.org for this testing. The Radiance Pro output is well within the HDMI specification. There is absolutely no need to consider different 4k HDMI chips.
> 
> All HDMI inputs are required to work correctly with outputs within the HDMI specification. This is also basic common sense. If they do not, it's on them. Again the Radiance Pro output is well within the HDMI specification.
> 
> We have thousands of Radiance Pro units in the field. The vast majority use the Radiance Pro for switching. Only a handful of systems using the Radiance Pro for switching have audio dropouts once optimal HDMI cables are in place. Said another way this means there are thousands of Radiance Pro based systems that do not have any audio or video dropout issues. If the Radiance Pro itself had audio dropout issues, this would _not_ be the case.
> 
> I can say that if there are audio or video dropouts, I believe without fail I get a call, or email, or there is a post here. When I talk to an end user or a dealer about a system, I try to always ask if there are any issues, such as dropouts (video or audio), to get as much feedback as I can. There are almost never dropouts once we have the optimal HDMI cables in place. Dealer and customer feedback bears this out. Obviously based on the few very vocal posters here there are some systems that continue to have audio dropouts. My best estimate is this is _significantly_ less than 1%.
> 
> I believe the majority of systems with continuing audio dropouts use high end audio processors, and a number of these use the same HDMI switch board. Both Trinnov and Storm Audio used to use this same switch board, but had enough issues (most systems did not have a Radiance Pro) that both company's switched to new HDMI switch boards. The reports I have are the Storm Audio processors no longer have dropout issues (including with the Radiance Pro audio output). I do not have a large data set for the new Trinnov HDMI input card, I can say reports are that the new card is a major improvement, and that I am not getting reports of audio dropouts using this new card on the Radiance Pro output (other than I think one on this forum but that might be the older Trinnov HDMI input card that has known issues).
> 
> We have a huge number of cases where switching to optimal HDMI cables has eliminated audio dropouts.
> 
> We have a good number of tests that when the high-end audio processor is temporarily swapped to a name-brand AVR (e.g. Sony, Marantz) that reports are audio dropouts stop occurring.
> 
> We have a large number of cases that switching audio from 720p to 9 GHz by also enabling video on the Radiance Pro output eliminated audio dropouts. Based on these field test results, I believe some 4k audio processors do not have the capture range to 100% lock on to a 720p HDMI signal for audio (also see below). Supporting all common audio formats using a 720p signal is an HDMI requirement that not all audio processor are meeting. This is not an easy task since it means support 720p up to 18 GHz in one design, but it is still a requirement.
> 
> As a side note, this is one reason why I recommend a 9 GHz output card for the 4242 since it allows Output 1 to have both audio and video and so run at 9 GHz. With the Pro's excellent output dither I see no visual difference between the 9 GHz and the 18 GHz output at 4k60, and for 4k24 both run at 9 GHz.
> 
> There is another more subtle HDMI audio requirement that I believe is part of the issue some audio processors have. Audio is carried as a non-coherent data stream on HDMI video. I will not belabor how dumb this choice was. We are stuck with it. Because of this, the audio clock is recreated using a "video-clock" divided by "audio-clock" ratio. In HDMI this is a huge integer for video-clock and a huge integer for the audio-clock. Since the audio and video have non-coherent clocks, this ratio _must_ be changed from time to time to maintain the audio data stream. By nature of how sources work this will change less when directly connected to a source then when adding an additional device, like the Radiance Pro. in series in the audio chain. I believe is it likely that direct from a source these will not need to be changed during an entire movie, and then at the end of the movie the ratio values from the source can change without impacting audio. Note that the ratio step-size effect on the audio processor internal PLL audio clock circuitry is larger at 720p than 9 GHz. I believe for the audio processors that have dropout issues with 720p, that the audio drop is likely coincident with this ratio changing. It is still incumbent on the audio processor to handle these ratio changes. My belief is the audio processors with issues are not adept at handling these changes.
> 
> =====
> 
> Finally, I feel the need to give people some information on my background to add some weight to my conclusions.
> 
> I have been designing high-speed transmission-line circuit boards for over 40 years. I have been designing DVI and HDMI circuit boards for 20 years. I have been on thousands of calls helping people with HDMI issues, many times this has been for systems without a Radiance. I apply engineering methods to each call trying to understand the cause. While people often blame the Radiance Pro, once we have solved the issue, it is almost never the Radiance Pro that is the source of the issue.
> 
> I understand transmission lines and what is required for circuit board designs using them. For the few designs from other manufacturers that I have been able to open up and look at, it is clear to me some HDMI circuit board designers do not understand circuit board design for transmission lines. Without proper HDMI transmission line design, there will likely be HDMI issues in those products.
> 
> These are the facts. You are free to ignore them if you wish.


Thanks Jim, but I had dropouts with my marantz 8805 too, only resolved by removing my old 4242 out of the audio chain, I also know a few other people that have had issues with other non-high end processors/receivers (arcam, denon, emotiva, anthem, etc).

I’ll leave it there and won’t comment anymore as everyone is going round in circles (it’s clearly getting boring with everyone having their own opinion), but I wanted to highlight that this isn’t a trinnov issue, to the point they sent me a new HDMI board to test, in fact, they couldn’t have done more for me to help to resolve the issue even though they were certain it wasn’t coming from the altitude in the first place.

I’ll just add that I’m happy with my system at the moment as it is 100% stable.


----------



## asharma

aguy said:


> I am just setting this up on my Sony.
> 
> I have also found that I need to drop shrink to 9.5. Curious as to the maths behind it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No idea why…perhaps someone else can chime in as to why…


----------



## aguy

I have just set my video output to 9ghz. Was previously on 4:2:2. 

It seems to have fixed some handshake issues I was having between my lumagen and Sony 550es. 

It was struggling when changing from 4k 24 hz 4k 50 hz ( when playing PAL DVDs). Sometimes it would lock and I would get a picture. Sometime just a screen of coloured static. Sometimes it would lock on to the 50hz signal fine but then get the static again when going back to 24hz. 

On paper the 550es should be able to handle 4k 50hz at 4:2:0 10 bit but it is clearly struggling. 

I think what has happened when I set it to 9 ghz is that the 4k 50hz is dropping back to 8 bit which is less bandwidth. 

Anyway. Looks good to me and thus far no more handshake issues. 

Maybe I just really need a new projector 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jqmn

aguy said:


> I have just set my video output to 9ghz. Was previously on 4:2:2.
> 
> It seems to have fixed some handshake issues I was having between my lumagen and Sony 550es.
> 
> It was struggling when changing from 4k 24 hz 4k 50 hz ( when playing PAL DVDs). Sometimes it would lock and I would get a picture. Sometime just a screen of coloured static. Sometimes it would lock on to the 50hz signal fine but then get the static again when going back to 24hz.
> 
> On paper the 550es should be able to handle 4k 50hz at 4:2:0 10 bit but it is clearly struggling.
> 
> I think what has happened when I set it to 9 ghz is that the 4k 50hz is dropping back to 8 bit which is less bandwidth.
> 
> Anyway. Looks good to me and thus far no more handshake issues.
> 
> Maybe I just really need a new projector
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have had some of these issues (black screen, diamond cross-hatch screen, static screen) with increasing frequency. As you can see from my posts up above @jrp sent me a f/w build that included a fix for similar 5000ES HDCP issues. I loaded this build, toggled it and haven't yet seen a recurrence of these problems while going back and forth from BDs to Amazon FS. You may have fixed your issues with the 9Ghz toggle but if not you may want to correspond with Jim to see if he believes this might help you as well.


----------



## Geof

More Dropouts
A few pages back I posted that I had resolved my dropout problems. I was right - until there was one - and now that's wrong. The good news is I was able to definitively prove the source of my dropouts is the Oppo UDP-203. The bad news is it's my Oppo. The good news is it's not my Lumagen. The bad news is it's my Oppo (sorry this just sucks).


----------



## Killroy

Geof said:


> More Dropouts
> A few pages back I posted that I had resolved my dropout problems. I was right - until there was one - and now that's wrong. The good news is I was able to definitively prove the source of my dropouts is the Oppo UDP-203. The bad news is it's my Oppo. The good news is it's not my Lumagen. The bad news is it's my Oppo (sorry this just sucks).


So sorry about your Oppo! With no new firmware support from them it may be a death nail. I sold mine when they ceased production since I knew this would happen sooner or later.

BTW, all of my Lumagen audio drops were completely and 100% traced back to the Nvidia Shield and Kodi 19.2. When they upgraded to 19.3 those went away completely....unless I use Plex (not through Kodi but their player) and the audio drops return. No loss there since I hate Plex with a bloody passion.


----------



## DigitalAV

Geof said:


> More Dropouts
> A few pages back I posted that I had resolved my dropout problems. I was right - until there was one - and now that's wrong. The good news is I was able to definitively prove the source of my dropouts is the Oppo UDP-203. The bad news is it's my Oppo. The good news is it's not my Lumagen. The bad news is it's my Oppo (sorry this just sucks).


Have you by chance tried both bitstream and multi PCM on your Oppo? I have bulletproof success with the latter.


----------



## Geof

DigitalAV said:


> Have you by chance tried both bitstream and multi PCM on your Oppo? I have bulletproof success with the latter.


I think the problem is worse than that...it does drop audio every now and then but it will also freeze up momentarily....(no A or V for 1-3 seconds).
I don't know what (if any) repair options there are, if nothing else hopefully I can find a service manual to see if there are any internal setting I can tweak.
In the meantime i've ordered a Reavon UBR-X100.....seems to be pretty "Oppo like"....


----------



## sjschaff

Killroy said:


> So sorry about your Oppo! With no new firmware support from them it may be a death nail. I sold mine when they ceased production since I knew this would happen sooner or later.
> 
> BTW, all of my Lumagen audio drops were completely and 100% traced back to the Nvidia Shield and Kodi 19.2. When they upgraded to 19.3 those went away completely....unless I use Plex (not through Kodi but their player) and the audio drops .return. No loss there since I hate Plex with a bloody passion.


Interesting that Kodi now works (until it breaks again). The problems you’ve experienced echo my own, and led me to replacing my Nvidia Shield TV with a Zappiti. Far better and more stable, though until the very latest model DV units, I did have issues with some codecs. I await receipt of a Neo to solve these. 

As for audio dropouts, I’ve begun another round of validating all my LRP audio related settings. This time ensuring I save after using the direct Menu commands, though I’m still puzzled as to what the difference is between 0748 and 0943. And I’m getting suspicious of the cables - in where they are in relation to other hardware. Their orientation and proximity to devices with large power supplies may induce anomalies which may have been causing the dropouts I’ve experienced in the past.


----------



## Kris Deering

Geof said:


> I think the problem is worse than that...it does drop audio every now and then but it will also freeze up momentarily....(no A or V for 1-3 seconds).
> I don't know what (if any) repair options there are, if nothing else hopefully I can find a service manual to see if there are any internal setting I can tweak.
> In the meantime i've ordered a Reavon UBR-X100.....seems to be pretty "Oppo like"....


Oppo is still offering repair/service work on their products, so you may have a glimmer of hope. I would reach out to them.

I have a random reoccurring issue with mine, but I haven't had to send it in. For some reason my Oppo 203 randomly factory resets itself every once in awhile. The only way I know it does this is that I typically turn my system on from my phone about 15-30 minutes before I am going to use it to get it warmed up. I also start my system to the Oppo and I'll know if it has reset itself as the Oppo screen saver will be up. I have this disabled in my normal setup. I've asked Oppo about this and they have no idea why it would randomly reset. It has probably done this 1-2 times in the last six months, so not a big deal, but I do find it odd.


----------



## Killroy

sjschaff said:


> Interesting that Kodi now works (until it breaks again). The problems you’ve experienced echo my own, and led me to replacing my Nvidia Shield TV with a Zappiti. Far better and more stable, though until the very latest model DV units, I did have issues with some codecs. I await receipt of a Neo to solve these.
> 
> As for audio dropouts, I’ve begun another round of validating all my LRP audio related settings. This time ensuring I save after using the direct Menu commands, though I’m still puzzled as to what the difference is between 0748 and 0943. And I’m getting suspicious of the cables - in where they are in relation to other hardware. Their orientation and proximity to devices with large power supplies may induce anomalies which may have been causing the dropouts I’ve experienced in the past.


The Kodi issues were more prominent with Atmos (higher bitrate ones) but DTS-MA also causing some issues with seamless branched titles. With Kodi you don't have to update unless you want to (turn off auto-update) or side-load it. If 19.4 breaks it I will stick with 19.3. BTW, I also own a Zidoo Z1000 Pro and I also have issues with codecs and the ever lasting subtitle issues. The Shield is the only player that I don't have any issues with my local stored media.

I am still using the Monoprice certified 18g cables in 6-foot size and have never had any issues. My projector gets the Monoprice slim-line fiber cable since my distance is well over 25-feet. Also no issues whatsoever with cables.


----------



## dlinsley

sjschaff said:


> I’m still puzzled as to what the difference is between 0748 and 0943


0748 reports back to the sources whatever is reported from your display / audio processor (default to whatever is connected to Output 1). 0943 always reports back to your sources a fixed set of audio modes that says you have Atmos/DTS-X etc.


----------



## sjschaff

dlinsley said:


> 0748 reports back to the sources whatever is reported from your display / audio processor (default to whatever is connected to Output 1). 0943 always reports back to your sources a fixed set of audio modes that says you have Atmos/DTS-X etc.


Thanks. So, in my case, if using Output 1 (having the LRP as switch and Trinnov as audio processor), 0748 may be a subset of what 0943 represents? Surprised the latest manual doesn’t cover what you describe. By the way what’s with the “toggle” (in the manual’s section 14).


----------



## Geof

Kris Deering said:


> Oppo is still offering repair/service work on their products, so you may have a glimmer of hope. I would reach out to them.
> 
> I have a random reoccurring issue with mine, but I haven't had to send it in. For some reason my Oppo 203 randomly factory resets itself every once in awhile. The only way I know it does this is that I typically turn my system on from my phone about 15-30 minutes before I am going to use it to get it warmed up. I also start my system to the Oppo and I'll know if it has reset itself as the Oppo screen saver will be up. I have this disabled in my normal setup. I've asked Oppo about this and they have no idea why it would randomly reset. It has probably done this 1-2 times in the last six months, so not a big deal, but I do find it odd.


I have sent an email to Oppo support asking about repair so keeping fingers crossed. A factory reset sucks if you have a lot of settings to muck with but that is rather odd...
That reminds me of my iPhone that suddenly switches from iTunes to a podcast as I'm driving....


----------



## sjschaff

Killroy said:


> The Kodi issues were more prominent with Atmos (higher bitrate ones) but DTS-MA also causing some issues with seamless branched titles. With Kodi you don't have to update unless you want to (turn off auto-update) or side-load it. If 19.4 breaks it I will stick with 19.3. BTW, I also own a Zidoo Z1000 Pro and I also have issues with codecs and the ever lasting subtitle issues. The Shield is the only player that I don't have any issues with my local stored media.
> 
> I am still using the Monoprice certified 18g cables in 6-foot size and have never had any issues. My projector gets the Monoprice slim-line fiber cable since my distance is well over 25-feet. Also no issues whatsoever with cables.


Just wondering but what process did you use to install Kodi 19.3? I might get my Nvidia Shield Pro back online and update it. I never know what is officially available from the Nvidia Android OS for app updates. I'm guessing 19.3 might require a download of the apk and getting onto the Nvidia, right?


----------



## Killroy

sjschaff said:


> Just wondering but what process did you use to install Kodi 19.3? I might get my Nvidia Shield Pro back online and update it. I never know what is officially available from the Nvidia Android OS for app updates. I'm guessing 19.3 might require a download of the apk and getting onto the Nvidia, right?


If you are going up (new or newer version) then you can install or update from the Google Play store. If you want to go back to an older version you can sideload it by getting the APK directly from Kodi and installing from an USB drive (although you have to delete the newer version first and turn OFF auto updates). I do not believe you can have two different versions installed simultaneously...if I am wrong about that, please someone tell me how cause I would love to have 18.9 and 19.3 running at the same time.


----------



## docrog

Geof said:


> In the meantime i've ordered a Reavon UBR-X100.....seems to be pretty "Oppo like"....


Out of curiosity, what " Oppo like" features are of major importance to you (that aren't available on less pricey players) if you're hooked up to the Radiance Pro? My recollection is that the Reavon advertises itself as a "Universal Player", but can't play SACD content like the Oppo (if that's relevant to your music collection).


----------



## sjschaff

Killroy said:


> If you are going up (new or newer version) then you can install or update from the Google Play store. If you want to go back to an older version you can sideload it by getting the APK directly from Kodi and installing from an USB drive (although you have to delete the newer version first and turn OFF auto updates). I do not believe you can have two different versions installed simultaneously...if I am wrong about that, please someone tell me how cause I would love to have 18.9 and 19.3 running at the same time.


Thanks. I wasn't aware of the ability to go back to an older version. Had I known that I'd have gone back to Kodi 18.x and never would have "discovered" the Zappiti (that is until I got frustrated with Kodi enough to move on). Becoming a game of 2 steps forward and 1 back (or vice versa) with video. Not the case for stereo only systems...


----------



## Kris Deering

Geof said:


> I have sent an email to Oppo support asking about repair so keeping fingers crossed. A factory reset sucks if you have a lot of settings to muck with but that is rather odd...
> That reminds me of my iPhone that suddenly switches from iTunes to a podcast as I'm driving....


I make sure after I have it setup properly to save the config file. So if it resets, I just say to load the configuration and it gets me back to my settings. It is just weird that it does this at all.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Out of curiosity, what " Oppo like" features are of major importance to you (that aren't available on less pricey players) if you're hooked up to the Radiance Pro? My recollection is that the Reavon advertises itself as a "Universal Player", but can't play SACD content like the Oppo (if that's relevant to your music collection).


Biggest one would be a pure source direct mode for the output. Interface is similar to the Oppo as well, though not quite as refined.


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> @jrp
> 
> I’m just about to experiment with 4096 output.
> 
> I’m wondering what the default scaling behavior of the radiance pro is with 4096 output.
> 
> For example. Consider the following example. I set all aspect ratios to 1.78 ( input and output ) and then feed a uhd input at 3840 x 2160.
> 
> Then set the output to 4096 x 2160.
> 
> What happens with scaling. As default does the lumagen add padding to the edges. Does it stretch horizontally but not vertically? ( hence changing the visible aspect ratio) or does it stretch horizontally and crop pixels from top and bottom to maintain the same visible aspect ratio)?


Since consumer content is 3840x2160 for UHD, if the Radiance Pro output aspect is set to 16:9 and output resolution 4096x2160, the Pro would scale up horizontally to fill the 4096 wide raster. In this case there is no vertical scaling for UHD content, and no cropping. This is because with the 1.78 output aspect setting you are telling the Radiance Pro that after optical-elements are applied the on-screen image is 16:9.

If you have a 16:9 screen you would set the Radiance Pro output aspect to 1.78 (=16/9). When you send 3840x2160 to your projector the physical aspect ratio (no anamorphic lens, no lens shift) is 16:9. When you send 4096x2160 the physical aspect ratio is 1.90 in this case. If you are not using lens shift (more on this in a moment), and you have a 16:9 screen, there is no reason to send 4096 wide since you would end up over-scanning too much on the sides once you filled the screen height.

The Paladin DCR lens is designed for 4096x2160 on a 2.40 lens. So, in this case you set the output of the Radiance Pro to 4096x2160 and the Radiance Pro output aspect to 2.40.

If you have a 1.90, or higher, aspect ratio screen, then setting the Pro output to 4096x2160 can make sense. In the Lumagen Demo Theater we have a 2.40 screen, and are not using an anamorphic lens. I have the Pro output set to Output Aspect = 2.40, and output resolution to 4096x2160. I use the Radiance Pro Output "Shrink" to adjust the active projector raster height. This increases the light output on the screen by about 13.8% (neglecting possible lens effects). Since our demo theater has a 14 foot diagonal 1.3 gain Stewart StudioTek 130, the extra light is important when we have our JVC RS-4500 projector set to mid-laser.

A comment on lens shift: I will start with an example. If you point your flashlight perpendicular to the wall, it casts a circular spot on the wall. As you angle the flashlight down the spot becomes elliptical. That is the height over width ratio increases. This is similar to using lens-shift (in projectors I have tested). Using lens-shift causes the height/width ratio of the image to increase. If you have enough lens shift you might find the 4096x2160 ends up as 16:9 on your screen due to this effect.

Even if you cannot use the entire 4096 output width, when using lens shift, you might find that setting the Radiance Pro output to 4096x2160 and then using the Pro's "Output Shrink" to reduce width slightly (so active width between 3840 and 4096, but still upscaling) might give you a 16:9 image on your 16:9 screen while using the entire 2160 height of the projector raster and more than 3840 width pixels. This in turn would give you more light output, and since the example is using lens shift, eliminate the need to down-scale vertically to reduce the height to achieve the 16:9 image aspect ratio. Avoiding the vertical down-scaling is a good thing.

For this last example, you would set the Pro output to 4096x2160, and the Radiance Pro output aspect to 16:9 as in the example since a 16:9 screen. Then you select 16:9 source aspect and use the projector zoom and shift to fill the height of the screen, with just a bit of overscan. Then you use the Radiance Pro Output.Styles.Style0.Mask/Shrink.Shrink to reduce the width to fit the screen with just a bit of overscan.

There are direct command codes in the back of the Radiance Pro manual. Here are some that are useful for implementing the above:

First enter one of the following two:
MENU 0873: Set maximum output rate to 9 GHz
MENU 0847: Set maximum output rate to 18 GHz

Then add 24 Hertz to the output list:
MENU 0872: For 3840x2160
MENU 0877: For 4096x2160

You can use the Output Menu for these, but I had Patrick add these direct commands to shorten my phone calls helping people configure a Radiance Pro.

In the Output.Styles.Style0.Aspect, select Single Output Aspect, and then use the number keys to enter the appropriate screen aspect ratio in hundredths. Press OK to accept.

Save your changes.


----------



## Geof

docrog said:


> Out of curiosity, what " Oppo like" features are of major importance to you (that aren't available on less pricey players) if you're hooked up to the Radiance Pro? My recollection is that the Reavon advertises itself as a "Universal Player", but can't play SACD content like the Oppo (if that's relevant to your music collection).





Kris Deering said:


> Biggest one would be a pure source direct mode for the output. Interface is similar to the Oppo as well, though not quite as refined.


Yep, Source direct was something I wanted. I also like that it has an audio HDMI output. Plus, I really like my Oppo so getting something similar appeals to me (Sony has one that would've worked but not it's my cup of tea). No SACD is no issue for me. I looked at their X200 which is kinda like the Oppo 205 but high end audio is not my thing anymore (old ears).

BTW: I've been exchanging emails with Oppo customer service and they can look at it (still working on what that entails).

EDIT: Oppo has an out of warranty charge of $109 to fix the UDP-203. It'll be on it's way soon....


----------



## docrog

Geof said:


> Yep, Source direct was something I wanted. I also like that it has an audio HDMI output. Plus, I really like my Oppo so getting something similar appeals to me (Sony has one that would've worked but not it's my cup of tea). No SACD is no issue for me. I looked at their X200 which is kinda like the Oppo 205 but high end audio is not my thing anymore (old ears).


Thanks for your response. Quite a few of us on this forum have been very happy with the much lower priced Sony X700/X800 models. Other than automatically converting 480P -> 1080p they are the equivalent of source direct, have an HDMI audio out and play SACD (relevant to my collection). True, they aren't built like a tank, but they have played flawlessly in my RP/Sony configuration for all disc content.


----------



## tigerhonaker

rilyas77 said:


> Hi
> 
> how you doing the switching.
> Are you putting all into AVR, then AVR out to say input 1 on lumagen and then output 2 on lumagen to say projector?


rilyas77,

I took the time to scan a huge number of pages back in 2020 when I was posting with other AVS members on which way to hook-up the Lumagen ???
If you wish to see what the responses were simply click on the links I provided below.

See the Links below that might HELP (Not Yelling just getting your attention).









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


When I performed the calibration, I used ChromaPure, and ran the whole profile with the glasses on the front of the i1Display 3 Pro. I now have ColourSpace, so when I do this the next time, it seems like you are saying to profile the meter with the glasses on (CS can profile, IIRC), and then...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


When I performed the calibration, I used ChromaPure, and ran the whole profile with the glasses on the front of the i1Display 3 Pro. I now have ColourSpace, so when I do this the next time, it seems like you are saying to profile the meter with the glasses on (CS can profile, IIRC), and then...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


When I performed the calibration, I used ChromaPure, and ran the whole profile with the glasses on the front of the i1Display 3 Pro. I now have ColourSpace, so when I do this the next time, it seems like you are saying to profile the meter with the glasses on (CS can profile, IIRC), and then...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


When I performed the calibration, I used ChromaPure, and ran the whole profile with the glasses on the front of the i1Display 3 Pro. I now have ColourSpace, so when I do this the next time, it seems like you are saying to profile the meter with the glasses on (CS can profile, IIRC), and then...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I honestly don't understand why so many of you choose to opt for less than optimal flexibility, especially when it means needing more HDMI connections and/or a second video run to the projector to be able to make use of the GUI from a current generation AVR/Pre-Pro. Not having your wife know...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I honestly don't understand why so many of you choose to opt for less than optimal flexibility, especially when it means needing more HDMI connections and/or a second video run to the projector to be able to make use of the GUI from a current generation AVR/Pre-Pro. Not having your wife know...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I honestly don't understand why so many of you choose to opt for less than optimal flexibility, especially when it means needing more HDMI connections and/or a second video run to the projector to be able to make use of the GUI from a current generation AVR/Pre-Pro. Not having your wife know...




www.avsforum.com





*Read the below Link buddy it's a post I did.*









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Does enabling DTM in Game Mode add latency ? How many ms ? Post #7,719 by Jim Peterson @jrp back in May "We are doing internal testing of an update that includes a "Game Mode" that significantly reduces the delay through the Radiance Pro when enabled. With Genlock on, the Game Mode input...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Does enabling DTM in Game Mode add latency ? How many ms ? Post #7,719 by Jim Peterson @jrp back in May "We are doing internal testing of an update that includes a "Game Mode" that significantly reduces the delay through the Radiance Pro when enabled. With Genlock on, the Game Mode input...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Does enabling DTM in Game Mode add latency ? How many ms ? Post #7,719 by Jim Peterson @jrp back in May "We are doing internal testing of an update that includes a "Game Mode" that significantly reduces the delay through the Radiance Pro when enabled. With Genlock on, the Game Mode input...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


oh this is awesome.. anyone out there want to do this for the arcam? :) So quick question, how is this connected? a bit confused on what's connected to what and how you inject the data into the lumagen as I don't recall it having ether My Raspberry Pi has a USB serial adapter on it connected...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


oh this is awesome.. anyone out there want to do this for the arcam? :) So quick question, how is this connected? a bit confused on what's connected to what and how you inject the data into the lumagen as I don't recall it having ether My Raspberry Pi has a USB serial adapter on it connected...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


oh this is awesome.. anyone out there want to do this for the arcam? :) So quick question, how is this connected? a bit confused on what's connected to what and how you inject the data into the lumagen as I don't recall it having ether My Raspberry Pi has a USB serial adapter on it connected...




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


oh this is awesome.. anyone out there want to do this for the arcam? :) So quick question, how is this connected? a bit confused on what's connected to what and how you inject the data into the lumagen as I don't recall it having ether My Raspberry Pi has a USB serial adapter on it connected...




www.avsforum.com





*My post below Lumagen is arriving in the morning.*









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Is there a way to copy an input label across all 4 memories? It's rather tedious to re-enter it for each.




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Is there a way to copy an input label across all 4 memories? It's rather tedious to re-enter it for each.




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Is there a way to copy an input label across all 4 memories? It's rather tedious to re-enter it for each.




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Is there a way to copy an input label across all 4 memories? It's rather tedious to re-enter it for each.




www.avsforum.com





*Lumagen has been installed.
Note*
I just rolled through a lot of pages and Do-Not see where I said how the Lumagen and the AV8805 Marantz were hooked-Up.
Sorry ..............*









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


The Lumagen has a port for an external IR-sensor. Place the sensor in your cinema room and plug the connector into the IR-port on the backside of the Lumagen. Hmmm. I wonder if there is a third party wireless solution (ex IR to RF) so I don’t have to run a 50 foot cable.




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Does anyone here has any info on when Lumagen will upgrade to HDMI 2.1? Are the current 4XXX models also upgradable to 2.1? Thanks




www.avsforum.com





Terry


----------



## scrowe

Killroy said:


> If you are going up (new or newer version) then you can install or update from the Google Play store. If you want to go back to an older version you can sideload it by getting the APK directly from Kodi and installing from an USB drive (although you have to delete the newer version first and turn OFF auto updates). I do not believe you can have two different versions installed simultaneously...if I am wrong about that, please someone tell me how cause I would love to have 18.9 and 19.3 running at the same time.


Yes, I was running 19.3 direct from the Google Store and a special 19.0 build side loaded that has full BD Menu Support for awhile. I’ve reverted to 19.3 as much more stable with my ISO’s and am hoping they add the BD Menu support officially. I’m more intrigued by you saying you can side load from a USB drive, because I could not do that and had to set up a separate NFS share transfer files from.


----------



## scrowe

docrog said:


> Thanks for your response. Quite a few of us on this forum have been very happy with the much lower priced Sony X700/X800 models. Other than automatically converting 480P -> 1080p they are the equivalent of source direct, have an HDMI audio out and play SACD (relevant to my collection). True, they aren't built like a tank, but they have played flawlessly and my RP/Sony configuration for all disc content.


If the Sony cannot actually output 489i/576i as source direct, and you don’t need SACD then the Panasonic players are fine choices as well, if you use the Mem trick to force 1080p output for BD/DVD playback


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Since consumer content is 3840x2160 for UHD, if the Radiance Pro output aspect is set to 16:9 and output resolution 4096x2160, the Pro would scale up horizontally to fill the 4096 wide raster. In this case there is no vertical scaling for UHD content, and no cropping. This is because with the 1.78 output aspect setting you are telling the Radiance Pro that after optical-elements are applied the on-screen image is 16:9.
> 
> If you have a 16:9 screen you would set the Radiance Pro output aspect to 1.78 (=16/9). When you send 3840x2160 to your projector the physical aspect ratio (no anamorphic lens, no lens shift) is 16:9. When you send 4096x2160 the physical aspect ratio is 1.90 in this case. If you are not using lens shift (more on this in a moment), and you have a 16:9 screen, there is no reason to send 4096 wide since you would end up over-scanning too much on the sides once you filled the screen height.
> 
> The Paladin DCR lens is designed for 4096x2160 on a 2.40 lens. So, in this case you set the output of the Radiance Pro to 4096x2160 and the Radiance Pro output aspect to 2.40.


The compression ratio of DCR is 0.8 (https://www.panamorph.com/wp-content/uploads/Panamorph Dealer Intro 2018.pdf).
When use a DCR lens with 4096x2160 resolution, the acurate physical ratio should be 17/9/0.8=2.36111. Right? I set my lumagen to output 4096x2160 resolution with 2.36 aspect ratio. The difference between setting to 2.36 and 2.40 is very small though.


----------



## Craig Peer

Killroy said:


> So sorry about your Oppo! With no new firmware support from them it may be a death nail. I sold mine when they ceased production since I knew this would happen sooner or later.
> 
> BTW, all of my Lumagen audio drops were completely and 100% traced back to the Nvidia Shield and Kodi 19.2. When they upgraded to 19.3 those went away completely....unless I use Plex (not through Kodi but their player) and the audio drops return. No loss there since I hate Plex with a bloody passion.


I sold my Oppo and got a Reavon X-100. So far - no drop outs and it has source direct.


----------



## fatherom

Craig Peer said:


> I sold my Oppo and got a Reavon X-100. So far - no drop outs and it has source direct.


My Oppo never has any drop outs when the audio is going directly to my denon. 

It’s unfortunate the reavon players don’t have all the media playback capabilities that my oppos do. I love my Oppo players and will keep using them till they die.


----------



## Craig Peer

fatherom said:


> My Oppo never has any drop outs when the audio is going directly to my denon.
> 
> It’s unfortunate the reavon players don’t have all the media playback capabilities that my oppos do. I love my Oppo players and will keep using them till they die.


Mine had a consistent dropout on the 4K disc Knives Out. I thought the disc was defective - until I played it in my Panny 820. No dropout. Tenet also froze in the Oppo. Overall I like my Zappiti
better now!


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> My Oppo never has any drop outs when the audio is going directly to my denon.
> 
> It’s unfortunate the reavon players don’t have all the media playback capabilities that my oppos do. I love my Oppo players and will keep using them till they die.


Their higher end player (X200) is the audiophile version of the Oppo 205 from what I read, and it plays SACDs. It has some real nice features but I wouldn't use them.
And like you, I had my Oppo audio fed directly to the AVR and I can still do that with the Reavon (but the Reavon has a stupid flaw.....no power on or off button (or IR code evidently), just toggle power - arrrgh.


----------



## fatherom

Craig Peer said:


> Mine had a consistent dropout on the 4K disc Knives Out. I thought the disc was defective - until I played it in my Panny 820. No dropout. Tenet also froze in the Oppo. Overall I like my Zappiti better now!


I'd be curious if a fully ripped BD folder structure of those two discs, played off a hard drive, would have the same issue (just intellectual curiosity)...so far, I've never really had issues with ripped content. I think the layer changes (especially for BD-100 discs) can cause problems in players (my Sony x800m2 certainly does sometimes).


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> Their higher end player (X200) is the audiophile version of the Oppo 205 from what I read, and it plays SACDs. It has some real nice features but I wouldn't use them.
> And like you, I had my Oppo audio fed directly to the AVR and I can still do that with the Reavon. (but the Reavon has a stupid flaw.....no power on or off button (or IR code evidently), just toggle power - arrrgh).


The x200 is crazy expensive.

When I mentioned media playback capabilities of the Oppo, I meant more mkv and uhd rip playback...which the Oppo does beautifully. As far as I know, the Reavon does not support uhd rip playback with menus like the Oppo does.


----------



## Geof

Craig Peer said:


> Mine had a consistent dropout on the 4K disc Knives Out. I thought the disc was defective - until I played it in my Panny 820. No dropout. Tenet also froze in the Oppo. Overall I like my Zappiti better now!
> 
> 
> View attachment 3216840


Mine constantly dropped audio on Atomic Blonde. Then I cleaned the disc with dish soap and it played fine. I saw no real issues before the washing. It was then that I began to question the Oppo but when it froze in the _Man of Steel_ I knew something was amiss. Then I got lucky....I bypassed the Lumagen entirely (not even power) and played the Oppo thru the AVR and got an audio dropout within a couple of minutes followed by a freeze-up for a couple of seconds.


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> Mine constantly dropped audio on Atomic Blonde. Then I cleaned the disc with dish soap and it played fine. I saw no real issues before the washing. It was then that I began to question the Oppo but when it froze in the _Man of Steel_ I knew something was amiss. Then I got lucky....I bypassed the Lumagen entirely (not even power) and played the Oppo thru the AVR and got an audio dropout within a couple of minutes followed by a freeze-up for a couple of seconds.


Any disc freezing (video/audio hangs, pixelation) that the Oppo may be doing is definitely unrelated to the Lumagen (of course)...but, as you mentioned, disc cleaning can often help (obviously there are some discs that are problematic no matter how well they're cleaned). The manufacturing residue that you can't even really see can interfere with layer changes, etc. If Man of Steel froze, it would be worth trying to clean it.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> The x200 is crazy expensive.
> 
> When I mentioned media playback capabilities of the Oppo, I meant more mkv and uhd rip playback...which the Oppo does beautifully. As far as I know, the Reavon does not support uhd rip playback with menus like the Oppo does.


Yeah, more $$ for the audiophiles. I haven't really used the media playback too much on the Oppo. I did use it to play the QBF pattern but I believe the reavon will do that. Beyond that I'm not sure.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> Any disc freezing (video/audio hangs, pixelation) that the Oppo may be doing is definitely unrelated to the Lumagen (of course)...but, as you mentioned, disc cleaning can often help (obviously there are some discs that are problematic no matter how well they're cleaned). The manufacturing residue that you can't even really see can interfere with layer changes, etc. If Man of Steel froze, it would be worth trying to clean it.


I thought about it but it does not repeat. And the disc looked flawless (first use). It didn't use to be this fussy and after spending coin on the Lumagen and RS3100 dropouts or freezes are strictly verboten.... It will be interesting to see what oppo finds and does....


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> And the disc looked flawless (first use)


As I mentioned, first use doesn't matter...the manufacturing residue is basically invisible but still may need to be cleaned nonetheless.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> As I mentioned, first use doesn't matter...the manufacturing residue is basically invisible but still may need to be cleaned nonetheless.


My plan is to play that disc, un-altered [uncleaned] in the reavon and see if it plays fine or has similar issues to my udp-203. By doing this I gain information on both players (and maybe the disc).


----------



## Clark Burk

Geof said:


> More Dropouts
> A few pages back I posted that I had resolved my dropout problems. I was right - until there was one - and now that's wrong. The good news is I was able to definitively prove the source of my dropouts is the Oppo UDP-203. The bad news is it's my Oppo. The good news is it's not my Lumagen. The bad news is it's my Oppo (sorry this just sucks).


Fortunately OPPO still does repairs. I know owners have had to get their laser assemblies replaced when they start acting up. If you’re good with getting inside electronics you could open the drive and give the laser a gentile cleaning with a swab but if you use yours a lot it may just need a new assembly. Lasers don’t last forever unfortunately.
Keep us informed. I’m curious how responsive OPPO still is. I have two 203’s myself and would be heartbroken if one became unrepairable.


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang said:


> The compression ratio of DCR is 0.8 (https://www.panamorph.com/wp-content/uploads/Panamorph Dealer Intro 2018.pdf).
> When use a DCR lens with 4096x2160 resolution, the acurate physical ratio should be 17/9/0.8=2.36111. Right? I set my lumagen to output 4096x2160 resolution with 2.36 aspect ratio. The difference between setting to 2.36 and 2.40 is very small though.


The Paladin DCR is a .8 compression. So the mathematical output aspect is (4096/2160)/0.8 = 2.37. However, Shawn of Panamorph recommends (last I heard) using a 2.40 screen. Setting the output aspect to 2.40 is an error of 1.23%, which is not discernable on content.

You can of course set the Pro output aspect to 2.37. Then I would adjust so no black bars for 2.35 content and then 2.40 2.40 content and mask any overscan pixels. This would work well for a 2.35, a 2.37, or a 2.40 screen.

As mentioned in a previous post, if you use lens shift your height to width ratio will increase throwing the above calculations off a bit.


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> Fortunately OPPO still does repairs. I know owners have had to get their laser assemblies replaced when they start acting up. If you’re good with getting inside electronics you could open the drive and give the laser a gentile cleaning with a swab but if you use yours a lot it may just need a new assembly. Lasers don’t last forever unfortunately.
> Keep us informed. I’m curious how responsive OPPO still is. I have two 203’s myself and would be heartbroken if one became unrepairable.


Yeah, comfortable with electronics but I kinda figured it may need the laser. I paid the $109 and now await an email with an RMA and address. we'll see how it goes...meanwhile the reavon is my backup plan...


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> The Paladin DCR is a .8 compression. So the mathematical output aspect is (4096/2160)/0.8 = 2.37. However, Shawn of Panamorph recommends (last I heard) using a 2.40 screen. Setting the output aspect to 2.40 is an error of 1.23%, which is not discernable on content.
> 
> You can of course set the Pro output aspect to 2.37. Then I would adjust so no black bars for 2.35 content and then 2.40 2.40 content and mask any overscan pixels. This would work well for a 2.35, a 2.37, or a 2.40 screen.
> 
> As mentioned in a previous post, if you use lens shift your height to width ratio will increase throwing the above calculations off a bit.


Oh, I never realized that 4096/2160 is not exactly 17:9, actually it is 17.06:9. So, yes it should be (4096/2160)/0.8 = 2.37, not 17/9/0.8=2.361

Yes, i am using a 2.40 screen. I have a little bit over scan with 2.35 or lower ratio contents, which doesn't bother me, so I will just leave the output aspect ratio at 2.37.


----------



## docrog

Geof said:


> Yeah, comfortable with electronics but I kinda figured it may need the laser. I paid the $109 and now await an email with an RMA and address. we'll see how it goes...meanwhile the reavon is my backup plan...


I think you might like to at least consider the Sony X700 as your back-up plan while awaiting repair of your Oppo. You can currently find it for under $150 new on eBay. You'd be more than pleasantly surprised at the video quality. Unlike the Panasonics, you can defeat 1080p -> 4K up-conversion without resorting to using a Lumagen memory as a faux EDID.









Sony UBP-X700M 4K Ultra HD Smart Blu-ray Player with Wi-Fi for Streaming Video | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Sony UBP-X700M 4K Ultra HD Smart Blu-ray Player with Wi-Fi for Streaming Video at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> Oppo is still offering repair/service work on their products, so you may have a glimmer of hope. I would reach out to them.
> 
> I have a random reoccurring issue with mine, but I haven't had to send it in. For some reason my Oppo 203 randomly factory resets itself every once in awhile. The only way I know it does this is that I typically turn my system on from my phone about 15-30 minutes before I am going to use it to get it warmed up. I also start my system to the Oppo and I'll know if it has reset itself as the Oppo screen saver will be up. I have this disabled in my normal setup. I've asked Oppo about this and they have no idea why it would randomly reset. It has probably done this 1-2 times in the last six months, so not a big deal, but I do find it odd.


I'll sell you my brand new jailbroken 205 for $10000 (with rack ears)


----------



## Clark Burk

Geof said:


> Yeah, comfortable with electronics but I kinda figured it may need the laser. I paid the $109 and now await an email with an RMA and address. we'll see how it goes...meanwhile the reavon is my backup plan...


That’s good to hear. Not a bad price for a repair.


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> The Paladin DCR is a .8 compression. So the mathematical output aspect is (4096/2160)/0.8 = 2.37. However, Shawn of Panamorph recommends (last I heard) using a 2.40 screen. Setting the output aspect to 2.40 is an error of 1.23%, which is not discernable on content.


I couldn't find it in the DCR thread or in my email, but Shawn has also said that the tilt of the lens effects the compression/aspect a little too. On my 2.37:1 screen, I do find the left/right overscan onto the masks is a little larger than top/bottom, so in my case is closer to 2.4:1 image coming out of the lens.


----------



## aguy

dlinsley said:


> I couldn't find it in the DCR thread or in my email, but Shawn has also said that the tilt of the lens effects the compression/aspect a little too. On my 2.37:1 screen, I do find the left/right overscan onto the masks is a little larger than top/bottom, so in my case is closer to 2.4:1 image coming out of the lens.


That would be helped by the pincushion adjustment on the lumagen. 

Unfortunately my projector needs adjustment itself because it is off centre as well as angled to the left too far which means the lens shift whilst compensates means my image is too tall on the left and not tall enough at the right of the image. 

This will all be fixed soon with the installation of a hush box. It was just a bad install when first put in a few years ago. Living and learning 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

aguy said:


> That would be helped by the pincushion adjustment on the lumagen.


Are you talking about a future feature you'd like? Because as of today there is no pincushion control on Lumagen.


----------



## aguy

bobof said:


> Are you talking about a future feature you'd like? Because as of today there is no pincushion control on Lumagen.


My apologies. You are of course correct. I was meaning the vertical keystone adjustment. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Silentmac

Kris Deering said:


> More fun, I decided to check out the official AppleTV owners thread today. The entire last page is people talking about various audio drop outs in different content and trying to figure out how to eliminate it. None of them are using Lumagen products. As I mentioned before, all the audio dropouts I've had over the last couple months (maybe 2-3 at most) have bene while watching content from an AppleTV. I can't remember the last time I got one from my Strato and I honestly don't know if I've EVER had one from my Oppo. I know the Strato was giving me some fits for awhile with DTS, but that was a Trinnov issue. They sent me some beta firmware that eliminated that for the most part, I think I've had maybe one or two DTS drops since then (can't remember it has been so long).


That’s interesting, because with the AppleTV4K I can’t remember that I had any drops at all since I have the Lumagen Pro. I can confirm your experience with the Oppo, even with the Oppo media player, never one drop. But with my new Strato I had yesterday two audio drops with Gladiator (DTS) via LRP and a Pioneer AVR. I’m glad you mentioned the DTS/Trinnov issue, because I thought first it could be a hdmi cable problem. What do you think about the Pixelgen hdmi cable that comes with the Strato? Would you suggest to replace it?


----------



## telem

Roland Janus said:


> to elaborate: a calibrator with no experience on the RP claims that the autocalibration feature is good and will result in a good calibration when used with the RP.
> Can someone comment on that?


I would be also interested, thanks


----------



## telem

Silentmac said:


> That’s interesting, because with the AppleTV4K I can’t remember that I had any drops at all since I have the Lumagen Pro. I can confirm your experience with the Oppo, even with the Oppo media player, never one drop. But with my new Strato I had yesterday two audio drops with Gladiator (DTS) via LRP and a Pioneer AVR. I’m glad you mentioned the DTS/Trinnov issue, because I thought first it could be a hdmi cable problem. What do you think about the Pixelgen hdmi cable that comes with the Strato? Would you suggest to replace it?


I am using for all my sources the 3m Model UHDP, no issue and no dropouts from my Strato C to the RP and from the RP to my Altitude. 
On another note would you mind sharing over PM with @Roland Janus and myself(both Swiss based) the name of your calibrator and your experience with? We struggle to find one and unfortunately due to travel restrictions Gordon that calibrated both our systems(exceptionally well I must say) cannot make it before some time…..


----------



## Clark Burk

Geof said:


> My plan is to play that disc, un-altered [uncleaned] in the reavon and see if it plays fine or has similar issues to my udp-203. By doing this I gain information on both players (and maybe the disc).


As I've been gradually putting quite a few MKV's on to my NAS server I've noticed quite a few less than optimal UHD discs. They look fine by visual observation and I attempt to give them a good cleaning but when the program MakeMKV says there's an error on the disc and I confirm it's in the same location using a second drive on my computer then I know there's a real issue. Often times the Blu-ray player will play right through the problem area but other times it will freeze or cause a dropout or skip.
Between the newer BD-100 discs and the now fewer remaining disc production facilities I think physical disc quality is a real issue.


----------



## cal87

Kris Deering said:


> I have a random reoccurring issue with mine, but I haven't had to send it in. For some reason my Oppo 203 randomly factory resets itself every once in awhile. The only way I know it does this is that I typically turn my system on from my phone about 15-30 minutes before I am going to use it to get it warmed up. I also start my system to the Oppo and I'll know if it has reset itself as the Oppo screen saver will be up. I have this disabled in my normal setup. I've asked Oppo about this and they have no idea why it would randomly reset. It has probably done this 1-2 times in the last six months, so not a big deal, but I do find it odd.


Kris, I had this problem with my Oppo. Even sent it in to them. They flashed something, but did not really find anything wrong. Still had the problem. I figured out it had something to do with the SSD that I play video content off of. If it is connected to the Oppo, it is fine. If I remove it, next time I turn on the Oppo all my settings are reset. I have not tried to figure out why, but now I just leave the drive connected even if I am not using it and have had no further problems.


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> As I've been gradually putting quite a few MKV's on to my NAS server I've noticed quite a few less than optimal UHD discs. They look fine by visual observation and I attempt to give them a good cleaning but when the program MakeMKV says there's an error on the disc and I confirm it's in the same location using a second drive on my computer then I know there's a real issue. Often times the Blu-ray player will play right through the problem area but other times it will freeze or cause a dropout or skip.
> Between the newer BD-100 discs and the now fewer remaining disc production facilities I think physical disc quality is a real issue.


Well that's disturbing but I guess not totally surprising. Error correction should be able to mitigate a lot of issues I would think [hope].
I still have the sense that my Oppo is fussier than it used to be and I just can't believe it should be common practice to launder 4K discs before playing. When the Oppo had problems with Man of Steel (not repeatable in the same exact spot but it was repeatable in that general area) my first thought was how would that disc play in a different player? With luck I may get to answer that later today....

EDIT: But your point about bad discs may also be the source of dropouts for some....??


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> But your point about bad discs may also be the source of dropouts for some....??


Bad discs result in the playback freezing sometimes, sometimes pixelations, sometimes audio and video drops, etc.

This is not the same as the audio only drop that I'm troubleshooting with Lumagen.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> Bad discs result in the playback freezing sometimes, sometimes pixelations, sometimes audio and video drops, etc.
> 
> This is not the same as the audio only drop that I'm troubleshooting with Lumagen.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I can only speak for my own experiences with dropouts.


----------



## jrp

As I suppose many are doing at the close of 2021, I am thinking about this past year and planning for the coming year.

I want to take this opportunity to thank our many thousands of Lumagen product owners, our many dealers and distributors throughout the World. You are the reason we have been so successful these past years. You honor us with your support and purchases. We are truly thankful for the Lumagen community and the great product feedback and suggestions you provide us.

This support has allowed our sales to grow dramatically over the past two years. Even with COVID, our 2020 sales were 11% higher than 2019. I just calculated the 2021 sales level now that we are closing the books for 2021. Lumagen's 2021 sales were up 61% versus 2020. I knew 2021 was going to be a banner year, but for a 20 year old company to increase sales 61% in one year with essentially the same product line is, I believe, unheard of. While people were at home during the COVID mess, many chose to build or improve their home theater. This was certainly a factor. However, in the end we have our dealers and customers to thank for this huge increase in sales this past year.

I believe over the past year we have made major strides on improving the already great quality Radiance Pro video processing. The upcoming pipeline enhancement release, which reworks every part of the video processing pipeline, will be another significant step up in quality. This is a demonstration of the flexibility of the Radiance Pro FPGA architecture. And for Radiance Pro owners all these are available in free updates, with more yet to come.

The Radiance Pro continues to win unbiased comparisons hands down. The public comparisons with competition conclude the Radiance Pro is "in a class of its own." In addition, there was a "single blind study" in image quality comparison where the panelists "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro." What is not public is the growing number of private comparisons with the competition I am getting phone calls and emails about. Some of these are from movie producers, and movie studio video technicians. Every single one has ended with the Radiance Pro wining by a significant margin. One person remarked that "the competition is not even in the same league as the Radiance Pro." Even some who have spent money on an alternative, when a friend brings over a Radiance Pro to compare to it, I am hearing people say they are going to sell the alternative at a loss and buy a Radiance Pro.

In one recent example a movie producer spent his time explaining to a major director's team that the Radiance Pro was absolutely the best option for the theater they are working on. This theater will be using a Radiance Pro. I have to say that we are proud of this level of enthusiasm exhibited by Radiance Pro owners.

In 2021 the Radiance Pro won best in class awards from Home Cinema Choice in the United Kingdom, and Video Processor of the year award from Stereo Net in Australia. I want to thank these publications for recognizing and rewarding our efforts.

















I believe Lumagen has a well-earned reputation for, not only the best video processing, but also the best support in the industry, and holding to the highest ethical standards in the industry. We will continue to hold ourselves to these high standards in the future while we continue our work to improve the Radiance Pro.

Thanks to everyone for helping us achieve such an amazing year. We wish you all a prosperous 2022.


----------



## sjschaff

Great year, and hoping for the best in the coming one as well. Let’s all stay safe, and continue to enjoy our lives, made so much better having Lumagen In our video systems. Your products and support certainly enrich our collective lives.


----------



## aguy

@jrp

Thank you for your continued contribution here and also via email when needed. 

I’m glad to read to above message. 

I love my radiance pro and I still continue to get to know it and love the picture more and more. 

Looking forward to the pipeline enhancements. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chicagobear1

jrp said:


> As I suppose many are doing at the close of 2021, I am thinking about this past year and planning for the coming year.
> 
> I want to take this opportunity to thank our many thousands of Lumagen product owners, our many dealers and distributors throughout the World. You are the reason we have been so successful these past years. You honor us with your support and purchases. We are truly thankful for the Lumagen community and the great product feedback and suggestions you provide us.
> 
> This support has allowed our sales to grow dramatically over the past two years. Even with COVID, our 2020 sales were 11% higher than 2019. I just calculated the 2021 sales level now that we are closing the books for 2021. Lumagen's 2021 sales were up 61% versus 2020. I knew 2021 was going to be a banner year, but for a 20 year old company to increase sales 61% in one year with essentially the same product line is, I believe, unheard of. While people were at home during the COVID mess, many chose to build or improve their home theater. This was certainly a factor. However, in the end we have our dealers and customers to thank for this huge increase in sales this past year.
> 
> I believe over the past year we have made major strides on improving the already great quality Radiance Pro video processing. The upcoming pipeline enhancement release, which reworks every part of the video processing pipeline, will be another significant step up in quality. This is a demonstration of the flexibility of the Radiance Pro FPGA architecture. And for Radiance Pro owners all these are available in free updates, with more yet to come.
> 
> The Radiance Pro continues to win unbiased comparisons hands down. The public comparisons with competition conclude the Radiance Pro is "in a class of its own." In addition, there was a "single blind study" in image quality comparison where the panelists "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro." What is not public is the growing number of private comparisons with the competition I am getting phone calls and emails about. Some of these are from movie producers, and movie studio video technicians. Every single one has ended with the Radiance Pro wining by a significant margin. One person remarked that "the competition is not even in the same league as the Radiance Pro." Even some who have spent money on an alternative, when a friend brings over a Radiance Pro to compare to it, I am hearing people say they are going to sell the alternative at a loss and buy a Radiance Pro.
> 
> In one recent example a movie producer spent his time explaining to a major director's team that the Radiance Pro was absolutely the best option for the theater they are working on. This theater will be using a Radiance Pro. I have to say that we are proud of this level of enthusiasm exhibited by Radiance Pro owners.
> 
> In 2021 the Radiance Pro won best in class awards from Home Cinema Choice in the United Kingdom, and Video Processor of the year award from Stereo Net in Australia. I want to thank these publications for recognizing and rewarding our efforts.
> 
> View attachment 3217294
> View attachment 3217295
> 
> 
> I believe Lumagen has a well-earned reputation for, not only the best video processing, but also the best support in the industry, and holding to the highest ethical standards in the industry. We will continue to hold ourselves to these high standards in the future while we continue our work to improve the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for helping us achieve such an amazing year. We wish you all a prosperous 2022.


Even some who have spent money on an alternative, when a friend brings over a Radiance Pro to compare to it, I am hearing people say they are going to sell the alternative at a loss and buy a Radiance Pro

I'm sure your referring to me here Jim. This is correct a very well known member in the UK jockychan. Came over to mine and compared my madVR Envy extreme with the pro. I have to admit once the pro DTM and other things where setup correctly by jockychan after we compared both units. The lumagen wiped the floor against my MadVR Envy Extreme especially with the DTM and scaling. Im selling my Envy extreme thanks Jim.


----------



## Clark Burk

I think we are lucky to have both the LRP and the MadVR platforms. I’m partial to the LRP but both are good options. The LRP checks all the boxes for me and with a CEO like Jim it’s hard to beat.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> As I suppose many are doing at the close of 2021, I am thinking about this past year and planning for the coming year.
> 
> I want to take this opportunity to thank our many thousands of Lumagen product owners, our many dealers and distributors throughout the World. You are the reason we have been so successful these past years. You honor us with your support and purchases. We are truly thankful for the Lumagen community and the great product feedback and suggestions you provide us.
> 
> This support has allowed our sales to grow dramatically over the past two years. Even with COVID, our 2020 sales were 11% higher than 2019. I just calculated the 2021 sales level now that we are closing the books for 2021. Lumagen's 2021 sales were up 61% versus 2020. I knew 2021 was going to be a banner year, but for a 20 year old company to increase sales 61% in one year with essentially the same product line is, I believe, unheard of. While people were at home during the COVID mess, many chose to build or improve their home theater. This was certainly a factor. However, in the end we have our dealers and customers to thank for this huge increase in sales this past year.
> 
> I believe over the past year we have made major strides on improving the already great quality Radiance Pro video processing. The upcoming pipeline enhancement release, which reworks every part of the video processing pipeline, will be another significant step up in quality. This is a demonstration of the flexibility of the Radiance Pro FPGA architecture. And for Radiance Pro owners all these are available in free updates, with more yet to come.
> 
> The Radiance Pro continues to win unbiased comparisons hands down. The public comparisons with competition conclude the Radiance Pro is "in a class of its own." In addition, there was a "single blind study" in image quality comparison where the panelists "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro." What is not public is the growing number of private comparisons with the competition I am getting phone calls and emails about. Some of these are from movie producers, and movie studio video technicians. Every single one has ended with the Radiance Pro wining by a significant margin. One person remarked that "the competition is not even in the same league as the Radiance Pro." Even some who have spent money on an alternative, when a friend brings over a Radiance Pro to compare to it, I am hearing people say they are going to sell the alternative at a loss and buy a Radiance Pro.
> 
> In one recent example a movie producer spent his time explaining to a major director's team that the Radiance Pro was absolutely the best option for the theater they are working on. This theater will be using a Radiance Pro. I have to say that we are proud of this level of enthusiasm exhibited by Radiance Pro owners.
> 
> In 2021 the Radiance Pro won best in class awards from Home Cinema Choice in the United Kingdom, and Video Processor of the year award from Stereo Net in Australia. I want to thank these publications for recognizing and rewarding our efforts.
> 
> View attachment 3217294
> View attachment 3217295
> 
> 
> I believe Lumagen has a well-earned reputation for, not only the best video processing, but also the best support in the industry, and holding to the highest ethical standards in the industry. We will continue to hold ourselves to these high standards in the future while we continue our work to improve the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for helping us achieve such an amazing year. We wish you all a prosperous 2022.


Great post Jim, I just rewatched the Daniel Craig Bonds leading up to the latest one in insanely good looking 4k UHD HDR -- the detail, the color (not too saturated!), the depth -- this would be impossible on my projector weren't for my LRP. Finally 4k UHD looks better than regular ol' Blu.

Love your product, the willingness to wear your engineering heart on your sleeve, and of course your support.

Apologies for my at times tactless "contributions" to this thread, perhaps less booze in the new year is in order too late


----------



## jrp

Chicagobear1 said:


> Even some who have spent money on an alternative, when a friend brings over a Radiance Pro to compare to it, I am hearing people say they are going to sell the alternative at a loss and buy a Radiance Pro
> 
> I'm sure your referring to me here Jim. This is correct a very well known member in the UK jockychan. Came over to mine and compared my madVR Envy extreme with the pro. I have to admit once the pro DTM and other things where setup correctly by jockychan after we compared both units. The lumagen wiped the floor against my MadVR Envy Extreme especially with the DTM and scaling. Im selling my Envy extreme thanks Jim.


I did not remember your case as I wrote my previous post. The instances I was referring to are different ones. However, I am glad you found the same result, and posted, as it is additional confirmation for everyone.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Great post Jim, I just rewatched the Daniel Craig Bonds leading up to the latest one in insanely good looking 4k UHD HDR -- the detail, the color (not too saturated!), the depth -- this would be impossible on my projector weren't for my LRP. Finally 4k UHD looks better than regular ol' Blu.
> 
> Love your product, the willingness to wear your engineering heart on your sleeve, and of course your support.
> 
> Apologies for my at times tactless "contributions" to this thread, perhaps less booze in the new year is in order too late


Thanks for your post.

I do my best to be open and forthright, but also try to be careful to be considerate in my posts.

I really appreciate the positive feedback and am not offended if there are less positive comments as long as the poster is not just being a troll. We try to take all feedback and use it to help us improve the Radiance Pro.

Happy New Year.


----------



## denon a1xva

Congratulations Jim and all the best for 2022! I was at a Lumagen show last tuesday at a company (Lumagen dealer) next to Aachen Germany. I was stunned with their latest version of the Lumagen processor sound an picture wise the best I've seen so far and I dont have to mention the company name  Nothing comes close the best performance I ever witnessed!


----------



## EVH78

Congrats Jim! I am using my Radiance since 5 years and it has so well aged/developed. The continuous firmware updates are just incredible, your support incomparable!

Here´s my wishlist for 2022-2023:

Geometry correction (That´s really the only feature the Envy is capable of and that I am missing)
HDMI 2.1 boards
Noise reduction
Audio format detection

Well knowing that probably few of these will ever see the light of day... 🤣

Happy New Year to everyone!


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> Congrats Jim! I am using my Radiance since 5 years and it has so well aged/developed. The continuous firmware updates are just incredible, your support incomparable!
> 
> Here´s my wishlist for 2022-2023:
> 
> Geometry correction (That´s really the only feature the Envy is capable of and that I am missing)
> HDMI 2.1 boards
> Noise reduction
> *Audio format detection*
> 
> Well knowing that probably few of these will ever see the light of day... 🤣
> 
> Happy New Year to everyone!


What, exactly, do you mean by "Audio Format detection", particularly given this is a video processor?


----------



## EVH78

audioguy said:


> What, exactly, do you mean by "Audio Format detection", particularly given this is a video processor?


Since I do not have the OSD of my AVR - the Lumagen does all switching - I would like some sort of info displaying the current audio format so I can adjust the sound accordingly.


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> Since I do not have the OSD of my AVR - the Lumagen does all switching - I would like some sort of info displaying the current audio format so I can adjust the sound accordingly.


Not sure I understand how the audio *format* helps you adjust the sound.


----------



## bjorg

EVH78 said:


> Since I do not have the OSD of my AVR - the Lumagen does all switching - I would like some sort of info displaying the current audio format so I can adjust the sound accordingly.


I built that using the audio format detection of the Trinnov Altitude and then displaying it on RadiancePro using a RaspberryPi. Here's the code sample for it.


----------



## EVH78

audioguy said:


> Not sure I understand how the audio *format* helps you adjust the sound.


I need to switch my AVR to straight to decode Dolby Atmos. I also need to make adjustments for DTS:X.


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> I need to switch my AVR to straight to decode Dolby Atmos. I also need to make adjustments for DTS:X.


Got it!


----------



## Peule_P

denon a1xva said:


> Congratulations Jim and all the best for 2022! I was at a Lumagen show last tuesday at a company (Lumagen dealer) next to Aachen Germany. I was stunned with their latest version of the Lumagen processor sound an picture wise the best I've seen so far and I dont have to mention the company name  Nothing comes close the best performance I ever witnessed!


I was a great show to demo the capabilities of the Lumagens.
Especially paired with the Sony GTZ380 it was gorgeous!


----------



## Chicagobear1

jrp said:


> I did not remember your case as I wrote my previous post. The instances I was referring to are different ones. However, I am glad you found the same result, and posted, as it is additional confirmation for everyone.


Sorry Jim apologies i thought you might of known the avforums member jockychan. He had mentioned to me he new you and Lumagen well. I am sure he said he mentioned explained our my findings to Lumagen. With the two video processors working hand in hand we both thought lumagen came out on top.


----------



## woofer

Chicagobear1 said:


> Even some who have spent money on an alternative, when a friend brings over a Radiance Pro to compare to it, I am hearing people say they are going to sell the alternative at a loss and buy a Radiance Pro
> 
> I'm sure your referring to me here Jim. This is correct a very well known member in the UK jockychan. Came over to mine and compared my madVR Envy extreme with the pro. I have to admit once the pro DTM and other things where setup correctly by jockychan after we compared both units. The lumagen wiped the floor against my MadVR Envy Extreme especially with the DTM and scaling. Im selling my Envy extreme thanks Jim.


Same conclusion i myself and those that viewed both the Envy and RP came to ...i owned both the Envy Extreme and Envy Pro..( i sold both at huge loss) .


----------



## Ian_Currie

woofer said:


> Same conclusion i myself and those that viewed both the Envy and RP came to ...i owned both the Envy Extreme and Pro..( i sold both at huge loss) .


Why did you sell the Lumagen Pro?


----------



## woofer

Ian_Currie said:


> Why did you sell the Lumagen Pro?


*SOLD the Envy Extreme and Envy PRO...*

The only Lumagen i sold was my 4242 to a close friend to replace his Envy PRO.. I upgraded to the Lumagen 5348..


----------



## Chicagobear1

woofer said:


> Same conclusion i myself and those that viewed both the Envy and RP came to ...i owned both the Envy Extreme and Pro..( i sold both at huge loss) .


The problem i had bought the Lumagen on the gray market good price not through a dealer. It wasn't setup correctly or updated. Once jockychan helped me out with the lumagen setup and DTM other setup the differences was huge. Jockychan mentioned he knows Gordon Fraser really well. He's going to try and organise a visit once he's up in Scotland seeing him again. We are going to improve things even further.


I wish i bought the Lumagen from a dealer. It would of saved me a fortune. You live and learn thanks.


----------



## Ian_Currie

woofer said:


> *SOLD the Envy Extreme and Envy PRO...*
> 
> The only Lumagen i sold was my 4242 to a close friend to replace his Envy PRO.. I upgraded to the Lumagen 5348..


Ahhh, didn't know there were two versions of the Envy, thanks for clarifying!


----------



## gadgetfreaky

For some reason after the latest firmware sometimes appletv starts everything letterbox instead of 16:9. How do I force every input to output 16:9

Also I have an updated the firmware in about a year. Has there been any updates that I should change settings for. Particularly for HDR napping. I have max default at 1100 and DRM enabled with dynamic pad 1. Kris tuned my system a few years ago.


----------



## SJHT

gadgetfreaky said:


> For some reason after the latest firmware sometimes appletv starts everything letterbox instead of 16:9. How do I force every input to output 16:9
> 
> Also I have an updated the firmware in about a year. Has there been any updates that I should change settings for. Particularly for HDR napping. I have max default at 1100 and DRM enabled with dynamic pad 1. Chris tuned my system a few years ago.


Assume you mean Kris Deering. I would contact him, He did a remote update for my system (for a very reasonable fee since he had calibrated my system) with the latest/greatest taking into account the changes. May not apply for you as there were some changes in one of the firmwares that impacted my setup and he factored that in…. SJ


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Chicagobear1 said:


> The problem i had bought the Lumagen on the gray market good price not through a dealer. It wasn't setup correctly or updated. Once jockychan helped me out with the lumagen setup and DTM other setup the differences was huge. Jockychan mentioned he knows Gordon Fraser really well. He's going to try and organise a visit once he's up in Scotland seeing him again. We are going to improve things even further.


Yes Gary, jockeychan, has been a client of mine for many many years. I suspect Jim doesn't know him as Jockychan but just by his real name of Gary. I'm sure we'll meet up at some point when i next head back up to the homeland....


----------



## Chicagobear1

Gordon Fraser said:


> Yes Gary, jockeychan, has been a client of mine for many many years. I suspect Jim doesn't know him as Jockychan but just by his real name of Gary. I'm sure we'll meet up at some point when i next head back up to the homeland....


Thanks Gordon


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Concerning DTM and subtitles in the active image:
> 
> It would be very nice if all players would have a level setting for subtitles to reduce their brightness and minimize their effect on DTM.
> 
> Patrick and I have discussed adding a "mask" feature for DTM where the user can program areas of the screen to be ignored for DTM. Not simple, but might be something to address in the future. Pipeline precision is next on our to-do list. Then PiP/PoP. Then it will be a discussion of what is most needed. s always we will ask users for most desired feature.
> 
> There is a big issue with DTM "mask" of having to program the masking areas and how many are needed. Hopefully would start with two areas if we implemented this. The two most common cases seem to be subtitles, and station logos. Logos tend to be on the lower right. So maybe we just mask that area if enabled. For subtitles perhaps a slightly larger than expected area might meet the need for most/all subtitles.
> 
> Certainly an interesting feature. Just not on the to-do list yet.


@jrp

I'm finding the need to have subtitles more and more.

Crazy idea -- what about a feature for models with dual video outputs (44XX, 53XX) that can "reroute" the DTM'ed outputted image, then overlay subtitles using the second video output without affecting DTM? Possible? I'm just an idea man!


----------



## Clark Burk

DigitalAV said:


> @jrp
> 
> I'm finding the need to have subtitles more and more.
> 
> Crazy idea -- what about a feature for models with dual video outputs (44XX, 53XX) that can "reroute" the DTM'ed outputted image, then overlay subtitles using the second video output without affecting DTM? Possible? I'm just an idea man!


Interesting idea although it sounds like you would need to have the second output sent to another input. That would mean you would have two inputs at the same time running which I think won’t work.


----------



## DigitalAV

Clark Burk said:


> Interesting idea although it sounds like you would need to have the second output sent to another input. That would mean you would have two inputs at the same time running which I think won’t work.


Yep my brain exploded when I thought of it, wasn't sure if whatever PiP/PoP planned mechanics could be leveraged


----------



## jrp

gadgetfreaky said:


> For some reason after the latest firmware sometimes appletv starts everything letterbox instead of 16:9. How do I force every input to output 16:9
> 
> Also I have an updated the firmware in about a year. Has there been any updates that I should change settings for. Particularly for HDR napping. I have max default at 1100 and DRM enabled with dynamic pad 1. Kris tuned my system a few years ago.


If you did a Save while in Letter Box mode, the Radiance Pro would have saved this as your preference and start with that mode at power on. 

Not sure if this is it, but if it is, select 16:9 source aspect and then do a Save. This should start the Pro in 16:9 mode and that input.

=== 

Using Default Max = 1100, used to be the default, and works for titles mastered at 1000 nits. We increased this since there are titles with 4000 nit MaxCLL, and games often have content near 10000 nits. For titles that do not report MaxCLL, or for Games, we now recommend Max Default of 4000, or 10000, respectively. 

DTM will then set its own MaxCLL for each scene and not limit them to 1100 due to Max Default being set to1100. Games, for no good reason, seem to use 10000 nit content and then fail to report MaxCLL. It would be better if Games limited content to 4000 nits to max the maximum used for video and movie content. However, again by setting Max Default for Games to 10000, the Pro will choose MaxCLL for every scene, and not clip at 1100 due to being told 1100 was the maximum.

Note: If you do not want to select Max Default manually for Games, using a Max Default of 10000 for all content is a reasonable choice since, again, the Pro will choose a MaxCLL for every scene.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> @jrpI'm finding the need to have subtitles more and more.


We have had adding Source aspect Modes with allowance for subtitles on our list for a long time. Enough people are asking that I am going to prioritize it higher. I already know how I would like to handle these and will discuss with Patrick once we have the Pipeline enhancements completed.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> Any disc freezing (video/audio hangs, pixelation) that the Oppo may be doing is definitely unrelated to the Lumagen (of course)...but, as you mentioned, disc cleaning can often help (obviously there are some discs that are problematic no matter how well they're cleaned). The manufacturing residue that you can't even really see can interfere with layer changes, etc. If Man of Steel froze, it would be worth trying to clean it.





Geof said:


> My plan is to play that disc, un-altered [uncleaned] in the reavon and see if it plays fine or has similar issues to my udp-203. By doing this I gain information on both players (and maybe the disc).


Regarding dropouts and freezes...
Man of Steel played flawlessly on the Reavon (while there were audio dropouts and freezes with the Oppo). Same disc, no cleaning. 
I expect Oppo to be able to fix this... 🤞 

FWIW, The Reavon has to be Oppo reincarnated - I have the original Oppo Box and packaging and the Reavon is virtually identical. It even comes inside a loose fitting oppo like bag (no handles). Two complaints with the unit...no dedicated on/off commands and the unit has to be turned on to open or close the disc tray. It's as fast as the Oppo.


----------



## audioguy

Geof said:


> FWIW, *The Reavon has to be Oppo reincarnated* - I have the original Oppo Box and packaging and the Reavon is virtually identical. It even comes inside a loose fitting oppo like bag (no handles). Two complaints with the unit...no dedicated on/off commands and the unit has to be turned on to open or close the disc tray. It's as fast as the Oppo.


Just looked on the Reavon website. This unit even looks like an Oppo !!


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> Regarding dropouts and freezes...
> Man of Steel played flawlessly on the Reavon (while there were audio dropouts and freezes with the Oppo). Same disc, no cleaning.
> I expect Oppo to be able to fix this... 🤞
> 
> FWIW, The Reavon has to be Oppo reincarnated - I have the original Oppo Box and packaging and the Reavon is virtually identical. It even comes inside a loose fitting oppo like bag (no handles). Two complaints with the unit...no dedicated on/off commands and the unit has to be turned on to open or close the disc tray. It's as fast as the Oppo.


Each player has its own tolerances. I have discs that play fine in my sony x800m2 that sometimes freeze on the Oppo. Cleaned the disc, and now the disc plays fine in both players.


----------



## Ilushka85

I have a lumagen that Kris deering setup but wanted to understand why the projector is set to sdr when using the lumagen ?


----------



## OzHDHT

Ilushka85 said:


> I have a lumagen that Kris deering setup but wanted to understand why the projector is set to sdr when using the lumagen ?


The Lumagen is doing the DTM for you so you don't want the pj in HDR mode, only BT2020 ie SDR2020.


----------



## Ilushka85

OzHDHT said:


> The Lumagen is doing the DTM for you so you don't want the pj in HDR mode, only BT2020 ie SDR2020.


But doesnt this leave out some detail that would be contained in the hdr data ?


----------



## OzHDHT

No because that's the whole point of DTM. It's already taken care what it needs with HDR source. You can set an HDR flag on the Lumagen if you want a JVC projector to say select a preferred picture setting. My 4500 goes to User2 with my calibrated settings for example.


----------



## Ilushka85

But from my understanding isn’t that faking hdr ?


----------



## ckgolf

Ilushka85 said:


> But from my understanding isn’t that faking hdr ?


What is your understanding? All tone mapping is technically faking HDR unless it’s a 4000 nit monitor. The Lumagen DTM is processing the HDR signal to match the brightness capabilities of the display. It sends it in a SDR container, but you are using all of the HDR that your display can handle.


----------



## aguy

Ilushka85 said:


> But from my understanding isn’t that faking hdr ?



In a way yes. 

But the truth is that NO projector is capable of displaying the brightness required for HDR. 

so what happens normally is that when you feed a HDR signal to your projector then your projector translates the brightness levels to match its capabilities. That is the process known as tone mapping. It happens in OLEDS too as they can’t display proper HDR levels either. 

What the lumagen does is take the tone mapping job away from your projector and does it itself. The lumagen dynamic tone mapping is considered amongst the best if not the best on the market and most of us much prefer it to the built in algorithm in our projectors. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ilushka85

aguy said:


> In a way yes.
> 
> But the truth is that NO projector is capable of displaying the brightness required for HDR.
> 
> so what happens normally is that when you feed a HDR signal to your projector then your projector translates the brightness levels to match its capabilities. That is the process known as tone mapping. It happens in OLEDS too as they can’t display proper HDR levels either.
> 
> What the lumagen does is take the tone mapping job away from your projector and does it itself. The lumagen dynamic tone mapping is considered amongst the best if not the best on the market and most of us much prefer it to the built in algorithm in our projectors.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Got it. Thanks. So right now I’m using an nx7 temporarily till my nz9 arrives. I have the lumagen all setup currently. Once the nz9 arrives how much better off will I be if I have someone calibrate it vs just leaving it with the lumagen as is.


----------



## aguy

Ilushka85 said:


> Got it. Thanks. So right now I’m using an nx7 temporarily till my nz9 arrives. I have the lumagen all setup currently. Once the nz9 arrives how much better off will I be if I have someone calibrate it vs just leaving it with the lumagen as is.


Always better being calibrated. Need the nz9 and the lumagen both calibrated. 

Note that there have been some issues with the nz9 and lumagen together. Jim and lumagen has a firmware for the nz9 that helps and he is very happy to help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

aguy said:


> Always better being calibrated. Need the nz9 and the lumagen both calibrated.
> 
> Note that there have been some issues with the nz9 and lumagen together. Jim and lumagen has a firmware for the nz9 that helps and he is very happy to help.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wonder where he got that? 🤔😜


----------



## aguy

Kris Deering said:


> Wonder where he got that?


Generally a pretty helpful mob here hey Kris 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ilushka85

Kris you sure you don’t want to fly out to Chicago ?


----------



## OzHDHT

Ilushka85 said:


> But from my understanding isn’t that faking hdr ?


You need to read up more about projectors, HDR and DTM... As has been said unless you can do what a mastering monitor can do you have to put up with 'fake HDR'. Even my new living-room Sony Z9J isn't going to cut it in that regard.


----------



## gadgetfreaky

jrp said:


> If you did a Save while in Letter Box mode, the Radiance Pro would have saved this as your preference and start with that mode at power on.
> 
> Not sure if this is it, but if it is, select 16:9 source aspect and then do a Save. This should start the Pro in 16:9 mode and that input.
> 
> ===
> 
> Using Default Max = 1100, used to be the default, and works for titles mastered at 1000 nits. We increased this since there are titles with 4000 nit MaxCLL, and games often have content near 10000 nits. For titles that do not report MaxCLL, or for Games, we now recommend Max Default of 4000, or 10000, respectively.
> 
> DTM will then set its own MaxCLL for each scene and not limit them to 1100 due to Max Default being set to1100. Games, for no good reason, seem to use 10000 nit content and then fail to report MaxCLL. It would be better if Games limited content to 4000 nits to max the maximum used for video and movie content. However, again by setting Max Default for Games to 10000, the Pro will choose MaxCLL for every scene, and not clip at 1100 due to being told 1100 was the maximum.
> 
> Note: If you do not want to select Max Default manually for Games, using a Max Default of 10000 for all content is a reasonable choice since, again, the Pro will choose a MaxCLL for every scene.


So I just got 16:9 on the remote then save? I tried that and it still jumped aspects when I exited out of a show. .

Do I see auto aspect on/off?
What about dynamic pad? It's at 1 .


----------



## MDesigns

J. Atkinson said:


> Sim2 builds exceptional product. Their projectors are designed by the same guy who designed the original Dolby HDR mastering monitor. He helped invent HDR as we know it.
> 
> So Sim2 does the best tone mapping job in the biz. *Lumagen doesn’t even have a product that can improve the HDR results.*
> 
> JVC has the second best tone mapping on projectors by a significant amount. However if I add a MadVR Envy to a Sony or JVC, I like the Sony results better.
> 
> The GTZ won best over $50K and honestly best overall because REAL HDR > tone mapping to make up for the lack of brightness.





J. Atkinson said:


> 1. *The Lumagen made the PQ worse. Period.* True story. Do you want me as the Editor to lie or tell the truth?
> 
> It’s about algorithms. Obviously the man who helped invent HDR may have a slight advantage in that regard. The Sim2 tone mapping is just amazing.
> 
> 2. MadVR Envy > Lumagen Pro.


Wild comments from the editor. Must say I disagree with much that has been said in that thread. Anyone else have experience with Sim2 HDR tonemapping?


----------



## J. Atkinson

MDesigns said:


> Wild comments from the editor. Must say I disagree with much that has been said in that thread. Anyone else have experience with Sim2 HDR tonemapping?


It’s nothing to be upset about. Sim2’s projector designer helped create HDR. So they have better algorithms.

The Lumagen helped with other aspects for sure and is a GREAT processor.

It would only matter if you owned a Sim2 projector. In every other case it’s a BIG improvement.

Give me a GTZ380 and either a Lumagen or MadVR and I would be HAPPY.


----------



## Kris Deering

J. Atkinson said:


> It’s nothing to be upset about. Sim2’s projector designer helped create HDR. So they have better algorithms.
> 
> The Lumagen helped with other aspects for sure and is a GREAT processor.
> 
> It would only matter if you owned a Sim2 projector. In every other case it’s a BIG improvement.
> 
> Give me a GTZ380 and either a Lumagen or MadVR and I would be HAPPY.


Sim2's guy being involved in HDR development would have little to do with making great HDR tone mapping, which is what Sim2 would need. You apparently think Sony's tone mapping is good, which is easily demonstrably false when compared to outboard methods, so why would anyone think your opinion on external tone mapping, including Lumagen's is valid? 

I assume the guy at Sim2 used to work for Brightside in Canada? I met with them and saw the early prototypes of the Pulsar well before they started selling technology to Sim2 and then got bought out by Dolby. After having some conversations with Sim2 about "reviewing" their products, it was clear to me that they would rather NOT have any objective measurements or anything else of that matter done. This has been clear with the published works as well, which basically is subjective flattery with little in terms of actual testing. The only actual objective measurements I've seen of a Sim2 that dug deep on it were Arrow's for the limited run Duo. Funny how these things all come around.


----------



## J. Atkinson

Kris Deering said:


> Sim2's guy being involved in HDR development would have little to do with making great HDR tone mapping, which is what Sim2 would need. You apparently think Sony's tone mapping is good, which is easily demonstrably false when compared to outboard methods, so why would anyone think your opinion on external tone mapping, including Lumagen's is valid?
> 
> I assume the guy at Sim2 used to work for Brightside in Canada? I met with them and saw the early prototypes of the Pulsar well before they started selling technology to Sim2 and then got bought out by Dolby. After having some conversations with Sim2 about "reviewing" their products, it was clear to me that they would rather NOT have any objective measurements or anything else of that matter done. This has been clear with the published works as well, which basically is subjective flattery with little in terms of actual testing. The only actual objective measurements I've seen of a Sim2 that dug deep on it were Arrow's for the limited run Duo. Funny how these things all come around.


Seriously, you don’t know me.

You need to stop acting like you know my stance on things and making assumptions that are wrong. It looks petty.


----------



## Kris Deering

J. Atkinson said:


> Seriously, you don’t know me.
> 
> You need to stop acting like you know my stance on things and making assumptions that are wrong. It looks petty.


My only opinions on you and your stances have been based on what you've posted, most of which (today) is easily refutable. I am not the one that has been throwing stones and mistruths. Seeing comments like this:

"Lumagen doesn’t even have a product that can improve the HDR results." 

and this:

"The GTZ at 10K lumens doesn’t need tone mapping. It’s real HDR. It can actually produce the brightness needed. No tricks." 

speaks VOLUMES about your knowledge when it comes to video. You then went on to say I misconstrued the second quote but you yourself followed up with this specifically, which means I didn't misconstrue:

"So again very simple: GTZ > Sim2 Nero 4S Gold. Because of real HDR vs tone mapping."

Once again, WRONG. 

Then this comment also makes zero sense and makes me wonder if you guys even knew how to make a Lumagen work in your demo or comparison or whatever it was:

"It’s not the processing power. It’s the algorithms. They turned the processing off during HDR with the Lumagen. The Envy they keep on and it helps with the non-HDR aspects (better motion handling for one)."

You are completely right that I do not know you, but I can ascertain a lot from these comments about your expertise in these areas. I can easily back up ANY information I put out and it is all based on actual testing, direct A/B comparison and LOTS of time in the field with equipment. I've demonstrated that much of what you say above is false in person more than a few times, it isn't even remotely hard to do if you know what you are doing.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Kris Deering said:


> My only opinions on you and your stances have been based on what you've posted, most of which (today) is easily refutable. I am not the one that has been throwing stones and mistruths. Seeing comments like this:
> 
> "Lumagen doesn’t even have a product that can improve the HDR results."
> 
> and this:
> 
> "The GTZ at 10K lumens doesn’t need tone mapping. It’s real HDR. It can actually produce the brightness needed. No tricks."
> 
> speaks VOLUMES about your knowledge when it comes to video. You then went on to say I misconstrued the second quote but you yourself followed up with this specifically, which means I didn't misconstrue:
> 
> "So again very simple: GTZ > Sim2 Nero 4S Gold. Because of real HDR vs tone mapping."
> 
> Once again, WRONG.
> 
> Then this comment also makes zero sense and makes me wonder if you guys even knew how to make a Lumagen work in your demo or comparison or whatever it was:
> 
> "It’s not the processing power. It’s the algorithms. They turned the processing off during HDR with the Lumagen. The Envy they keep on and it helps with the non-HDR aspects (better motion handling for one)."
> 
> You are completely right that I do not know you, but I can ascertain a lot from these comments about your expertise in these areas. I can easily back up ANY information I put out and it is all based on actual testing, direct A/B comparison and LOTS of time in the field with equipment. I've demonstrated that much of what you say above is false in person more than a few times, it isn't even remotely hard to do if you know what you are doing.


Kris said 
Then this comment also makes zero sense and makes me wonder if you guys even knew how to make a Lumagen work in your demo or comparison or whatever it was:

This above comment by Kris has me thinking especially when someone like my self had the lumagen setup incorrectly that's been mentioned recently here. I was comparing it with the competition equipment i had and not getting anywhere near the Lumagen capability or ability until the Lumagen was set up correctly. Am not saying this is the case here it certainly was with my case.This might be more common than we think. And if so it can have a misrepresentation of lumagen's capability. I would make sure the Lumagen is setup correctly by someone like Kris. That's what i should of done in the first place.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> My only opinions on you and your stances have been based on what you've posted, most of which (today) is easily refutable. I am not the one that has been throwing stones and mistruths. Seeing comments like this:
> 
> "Lumagen doesn’t even have a product that can improve the HDR results."
> 
> and this:
> 
> "The GTZ at 10K lumens doesn’t need tone mapping. It’s real HDR. It can actually produce the brightness needed. No tricks."
> 
> speaks VOLUMES about your knowledge when it comes to video. You then went on to say I misconstrued the second quote but you yourself followed up with this specifically, which means I didn't misconstrue:
> 
> "So again very simple: GTZ > Sim2 Nero 4S Gold. Because of real HDR vs tone mapping."
> 
> Once again, WRONG.
> 
> Then this comment also makes zero sense and makes me wonder if you guys even knew how to make a Lumagen work in your demo or comparison or whatever it was:
> 
> "It’s not the processing power. It’s the algorithms. They turned the processing off during HDR with the Lumagen. The Envy they keep on and it helps with the non-HDR aspects (better motion handling for one)."
> 
> You are completely right that I do not know you, but I can ascertain a lot from these comments about your expertise in these areas. I can easily back up ANY information I put out and it is all based on actual testing, direct A/B comparison and LOTS of time in the field with equipment. I've demonstrated that much of what you say above is false in person more than a few times, it isn't even remotely hard to do if you know what you are doing.


Both your tones blow, what's the endgame here? Neither of you will ever accept the other's stance, just reveling in a train wreck

Someone please review Sim2's DTM so we can end this. Good lord

EDIT- looks like not even DTM, gooder lord 

Yours truly,
The Tone Police


----------



## jrp

J. Atkinson said:


> It’s nothing to be upset about. Sim2’s projector designer helped create HDR. So they have better algorithms.
> 
> The Lumagen helped with other aspects for sure and is a GREAT processor.
> 
> It would only matter if you owned a Sim2 projector. In every other case it’s a BIG improvement.
> 
> Give me a GTZ380 and either a Lumagen or MadVR and I would be HAPPY.


HDR is about a "Gamma" curve Bt.2084, which itself is a reasonably simple math function. The Bt.2084 standard is actually straight forward. Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) is not. Working on the standard does not itself provide insight into DTM.

Does the Sim2 have a true DTM tone mapping? No Static Tone Mapping, which I actually believe the Sim2 has (partly because they do not even mention DTM in their literature that I see), can compete with the current Radiance Pro DTM. No need to even view STM, the math alone shows it cannot compete. Sony calls their Tone Mapping "dynamic" but it is STM. It is easy to show how STM fails, and this is true of the Sony. It is okay for average scenes but fails on both very bright and very dark scenes. This is going to be true of every STM algorithm.

Lumagen provides the best DTM for HDR on the planet. It is being used by Jon Thompson, who is a producer doing prost-production for a major studio for the consumer HDR releases he works on. He uses a Dolby Cinema projector driven by the Radiance Pro DTM. This is essentially a Christie Eclipse, but adds the DCI front end. His comment to me was the Radiance Pro DTM is "sublime." I can confidently say if the Pro DTM did not beat the Sim2, you have it set up wrong (or as has happened before, used too old of a release). It is fairly easy to setup, and I can help if your want. Should you want to do a fair comparison, we can discuss getting your Radiance Pro setup correctly.

True DTM requires scene detection and the ability to set the transfer function for every scene at least, or for every scene and every frame as the Radiance Pro does. Without this, it is Static Tone Mapping. I would be interested in if Sim2 does actually have Dynamic Tone Mapping. If so let us know.

Every projector needs HDR Tone Mapping. You would need 4000 nits output (like a Pulsar monitor has) to eliminate the need for Tone Mapping. Saying any 10000 Lumen projector (GTZ-380 for example) does not need HDR Tone Mapping is on its face incorrect. The calibrators I talk to do not even use full output on laser on the GTZ-380 or other 10000 Lumen projectors as it is "too bright" for everyone I have talked to for a home cinema.

We have a growing number of Radiance Pro units driving GTZ-380 projectors. Every comment from owners and calibrators I have received says the Radiance Pro takes the GTZ-380, or any projector, image quality up to the level of amazing.

Please understand that I am not saying anything negative about the Sim2 projector. I am sure it is an excellent projector. However, I am saying that use with a properly set up, and hopefully calibrated, Radiance Pro would improve its image quality.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> HDR is about a "Gamma" curve Bt.2084, which itself is a reasonably simple math function. The Bt.2084 standard is actually straight forward. Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) is not. Working on the standard does not itself provide insight into DTM.
> 
> Does the Sim2 have a true DTM tone mapping? No Static Tone Mapping, which I actually believe the Sim2 has (partly because they do not even mention DTM in their literature that I see), can compete with the current Radiance Pro DTM. No need to even view STM, the math alone shows it cannot compete. Sony calls their Tone Mapping "dynamic" but it is STM. It is easy to show how STM fails, and this is true of the Sony. It is okay for average scenes but fails on both very bright and very dark scenes. This is going to be true of every STM algorithm.
> 
> Lumagen provides the best DTM for HDR on the planet. It is being used by Jon Thompson, who is a producer doing prost-production for a major studio for the consumer HDR releases he works on. He uses a Dolby Cinema projector driven by the Radiance Pro DTM. This is essentially a Christie Eclipse, but adds the DCI front end. His comment to me was the Radiance Pro DTM is "sublime." I can confidently say if the Pro DTM did not beat the Sim2, you have it set up wrong (or as has happened before, used too old of a release). It is fairly easy to setup, and I can help if your want. Should you want to do a fair comparison, we can discuss getting your Radiance Pro setup correctly.
> 
> True DTM requires scene detection and the ability to set the transfer function for every scene at least, or for every scene and every frame as the Radiance Pro does. Without this, it is Static Tone Mapping. I would be interested in if Sim2 does actually have Dynamic Tone Mapping. If so let us know.
> 
> Every projector needs HDR Tone Mapping. You would need 4000 nits output (like a Pulsar monitor has) to eliminate the need for Tone Mapping. Saying any 10000 Lumen projector (GTZ-380 for example) does not need HDR Tone Mapping is on its face incorrect. The calibrators I talk to do not even use full output on laser on the GTZ-380 or other 10000 Lumen projectors as it is "too bright" for everyone I have talked to for a home cinema.
> 
> We have a growing number of Radiance Pro units driving GTZ-380 projectors. Every comment from owners and calibrators I have received says the Radiance Pro takes the GTZ-380, or any projector, image quality up to the level of amazing.
> 
> Please understand that I am not saying anything negative about the Sim2 projector. I am sure it is an excellent projector. However, I am saying that use with a properly set up, and hopefully calibrated, Radiance Pro would improve its image quality.


I want to date, marry, and adopt a kid with Jim's posts I love them so much- learn more with one post than a night of research 

Also love when Jim busts out some math, so here's my crude attempt-

10,000 lumens (unrealistic real world but hang on) divided by 3.426 is 2,919 nits if I'm being nice -- last time I checked that's less than 4,000 so the editor's GTZ380 not needing tonemapping point is invalid (no doubt along with a whole slew of other considerations like contrast and whatnot but I'm an artist & kinda dumb so I just coattail onto Jim's posts)


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> I want to date, marry, and adopt a kid with Jim's posts I love them so much- learn more with one post than a night of research
> 
> Also love when Jim busts out some math, so here's my crude attempt-
> 
> 10,000 lumens (unrealistic real world but hang on) divided by 3.426 is 2,919 nits if I'm being nice -- last time I checked that's less than 4,000 so the editor's GTZ380 not needing tone mapping point is invalid (no doubt along with a whole slew of other considerations like contrast and whatnot but I'm an artist & kinda dumb so I just coattail onto Jim's posts)


Here's some more math:

Nits is defined as Candella per square meter, or in professional applications the light in a 1 degree [EDIT: I think this is actually 6 degrees but need to check] subtended angle on a screen from viewing distance. As the screen gets larger the nits goes down for a given projector and setting.

On our Lumagen Demo Theater's 14 foot 1.3 Gain Stewart Studiotek 130 screen, 3000 Lumens yields about 95 nits. So 10000 Lumens would be in the range of 300 to 350 nits. Typically I am hearing the GTZ-380 is being used at about 60% laser. I do not have an exact Lumens output for this setting, but it should in in the range of 6000 Lumens, or around 190 nits.

On a large screen 190 nits is IMO extremely bright. Even with our Demo Theater at 95 nits at high laser on our JVC RS4500, going from a dark scene to a bright outdoor scene I have to look away until my eyes adjust.


----------



## Peule_P

Also I thought the GTZ380 is 10.000 lm only on 230V mains and a lot less on 110V mains?


----------



## MDesigns

Peule_P said:


> Also I thought the GTZ380 is 10.000 lm only on 230V mains and a lot less on 110V mains?


That is correct. But if you can spend $90k to a projector you can probably get it 230V too.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Some excellent comments made by Jim. I have to admit the lumagen made the world of difference to my little small inferior JVC X5900. 

compared to what is been talked about here my projector isn’t even worth mentioning. 

what is worth mentioning is what the lumagen did to my image. Let alone how well it manages SDR, HDR content and anamorphic scaling with my Prismasonic lens. Couldn’t be happier.


----------



## Clark Burk

Thanks Jim for stepping in and providing good info and you always do it in such a gentlemanly manner.


----------



## Sittler27

I'm an NX9 user with an NZ9 incoming.

Anything I need to actively do to ensure the RP continues to work flawlessly on the new laser?

I have video going from source to RP to projector; audio goes from source to RP to my HTP-1.


----------



## Clark Burk

Congrats, enjoy your new Z. Unless you have calibration set up on the LRP I wouldn't think there's anything you need to do.


----------



## Sittler27

Clark Burk said:


> Congrats, enjoy your new Z. Unless you have calibration set up on the LRP I wouldn't think there's anything you need to do.


I do have two 3DLUTs loaded into the RP (one for SDR and one for HDR), but I was going to recreate them anyways for the new projector.

Anything I need to do special?


----------



## Kottan

Hi all,

I am currently projecting with a JVC 7900 onto a Stewart Studiotek 130 G4 (aspect ratio 2.4, 12ft 7inch screen width, a recent upgrade in my setup I did due to the praise this fabric - rightfully - received by Kris Deering) which gives me 50 nits. Sources are a Madvr PC and an Nvidia Shield Pro, the latter used for streaming, both sources connected to an Arcam AVR 390 which feeds the JVC. The Madvr PC sends an SDR2020 signal to the JVC that has a calibrated BT2020 mode with a gamma of 2.4 in high lamp mode. However, streaming via the Shield is a permanent hassle, be it the Shield getting stuck in 720p60 due to Edid issues, resyncing during a movie which takes painfully long on the JVC or of course no availability of DTM when streaming. Due to all the positive feedback on the Radiance, not least by Kris Deering - yes, again this guy - , I am thinking of adding a Lumagen Radiance to my setup. What I would like to have sorted out before pulling the trigger:

- Having the Radiance output everything in SDR2020: Where do I tell the Radiance that the JVC is calibrated to a gamma of 2.4? Or does setting the output colorspace to SDR2020 mean the Lumagen expects the projector to be at a gamma of 2.4? And will it pass the tonemapped SDR2020 signal from the PC to the JVC without altering the gamma - gamma factor 1? (I think the consensus is that the Lumagen‘s DTM is superior to the Madvr one‘s so that it might be better to have the PC output an HDR signal). And can the JVC (respectively the new Laser generation) be made to switch into a higher lamp setting when the HDR flag is on while still staying in non-tonemapping mode? 

- auto aspect ratio without an anamorphic lens: I think I got that, have to shrink and turn scale bias to off to prevent scaling with 2.4 and 2.35 content.

- auto calibration: I have to upgrade to Chromapure3 with the AutoCal package, anbody with experience on doing an autocal with Chromapure?

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kottan said:


> - Having the Radiance output everything in SDR2020: Where do I tell the Radiance that the JVC is calibrated to a gamma of 2.4? Or does setting the output colorspace to SDR2020 mean the Lumagen expects the projector to be at a gamma of 2.4? And will it pass the tonemapped SDR2020 signal from the PC to the JVC without altering the gamma - gamma factor 1? (I think the consensus is that the Lumagen‘s DTM is superior to the Madvr one‘s so that it might be better to have the PC output an HDR signal). And can the JVC (respectively the new Laser generation) be made to switch into a higher lamp setting when the HDR flag is on while still staying in non-tonemapping mode?
> 
> - auto aspect ratio without an anamorphic lens: I think I got that, have to shrink and turn scale bias to off to prevent scaling with 2.4 and 2.35 content.
> 
> - auto calibration: I have to upgrade to Chromapure3 with the AutoCal package, anbody with experience on doing an autocal with Chromapure?
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


If your projector is calibrated to 2020 gamma 2.4 then you are pretty much good to go. There is no need to alter the default gamma in the Lumagen CMS. You would just set the Lumagen CMS in use to use an SDR REC2020 colourspace. If you wanted to swap between high and low output presets then you can have a seperate cms for HDR content that has HDR flag enabled and that will force the JVC in to its HDR preset where you can turn off its tone mapping and get it to just do gamma 2.4 and rec2020 colour as you are currently doing. i'd expect whoever supplies you a Lumagen should be able to guide you through this and preset up all this stuff so it's essentially a plug and play device for you.


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp,

Jim Peterson,

Please, Do-Not send me to someone else I want to ask (You) a simple I think question.
I did once upon a time send you an E-Mail and did not ever receive a reply from (You).
I did look at your profile and it looks like you don't really use the (Conversation) option on here hardly ever.
So, Jim, I'm not wishing to come across to you as a Smart-Ass at all I simply want to get in contact with you and don't really know how to do that.
The pictures below are just to let you see that I do in-fact have your product so I'm not a Troll on AVS.
Just simply want to talk to you one on one ............

My Lumagen Radiance Pro was purchased from Craig Peer here on AVS back on October 2020.





This last picture is me standing in front of the rack with the just installed Lumagen Radiance Pro.



Terry Honaker
Franklin, TN.
USA


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…Just received the Spears and Munsil 4K disc…With a LRP in the loop, what should the config screen be set to on the disc? For Luminance the choices are 600 nits, 1000 nits, 2000 nits, 4000 nits, 10,000 nits…

also I’m running BT2020 normal so should HDR Gamut on the disc be set to P3D65|BT2020 or just BT2020?

thanks folks


----------



## jqmn

Gordon Fraser said:


> If your projector is calibrated to 2020 gamma 2.4 then you are pretty much good to go. There is no need to alter the default gamma in the Lumagen CMS. You would just set the Lumagen CMS in use to use an SDR REC2020 colourspace. If you wanted to swap between high and low output presets then you can have a seperate cms for HDR content that has HDR flag enabled and that will force the JVC in to its HDR preset where you can turn off its tone mapping and get it to just do gamma 2.4 and rec2020 colour as you are currently doing. i'd expect whoever supplies you a Lumagen should be able to guide you through this and preset up all this stuff so it's essentially a plug and play device for you.


This is a question I have always had and never chased down...LRP set to SDRRec2020 and projector set to BT2020 gamma 2.4.....is it the case that the LRP looks at the incoming signal (say Rec709) and then does the matrix conversion of 709 into BT2020 space and outputs that restricted space or does it output the full 2020 space but there is nothing beyond the 709 subset of 2020 so the effect is the same? Thank-you.


----------



## jrp

Sittler27 said:


> I'm an NX9 user with an NZ9 incoming.
> 
> Anything I need to actively do to ensure the RP continues to work flawlessly on the new laser?
> 
> I have video going from source to RP to projector; audio goes from source to RP to my HTP-1.


JVC has some HDMI issues with their NZ series production firmware release. I have a NZ series preproduction firmware release that works well for HDMI that I can send you a link to. Please email lumagen.com support and I will send you a link.

Please note that our SPAM filter has been overactive of late. If you do not hear back from me within a day or so, please call our main line at 503-574-2211 Option 2, let us know your email, and then resend. I can then go into the SPAM filter and whitelist your email. Or if you are in the USA or Canada and prefer a call back, let us know that as well.


----------



## jrp

tigerhonaker said:


> Jim Peterson,
> 
> Please, Do-Not send me to someone else I want to ask (You) a simple I think question.
> I did once upon a time send you an E-Mail and did not ever receive a reply from (You).
> ...
> 
> Terry Honaker


Please send an email again at the Lumagen.com support email (or call and leave a message at 503-574-2211). Note that our SPAM filter has been overactive of late. If you do not hear back from me within a day or so, please call our main line and select Option 2, let us know your email (please speak slowly and clearly and spell it out), and then resend. I can then go into the SPAM filter and whitelist your email. Or if prefer a call back, let us know that as well (and leave your number of course).


----------



## jrp

jqmn said:


> This is a question I have always had and never chased down...LRP set to SDRRec2020 and projector set to BT2020 gamma 2.4.....is it the case that the LRP looks at the incoming signal (say Rec709) and then does the matrix conversion of 709 into BT2020 space and outputs that restricted space or does it output the full 2020 space but there is nothing beyond the 709 subset of 2020 so the effect is the same? Thank-you.


I am recommending that the CMS0 (for SDR) and CMS1 (for HDR) both have their output "Colorspace" set to SDR2020, with the conversion entry set to "Auto convert."

In this case for SDR Rec 709 content the Radiance Pro uses the SMTPE colorspace conversion equations to convert Rec 709 to Rec 2020. There are two conversion equation sets in the standard. The Radiance Pro uses the equation set intended to preserve the Rec709 colors most accurately.

For Rec 709 content, there will not be any colors outside the Rec709 color Gamut in this case since the equations preserve the source Rec709 color points accurately. It you have a projector that is accurate for both Rec709 and for Rec2020, you should not be able to see any differences using this set up versus if you choose to output Colorspace = SDR709 for CMS0 (used for SDR).


----------



## jbrinegar

Jim, is this something that can be fixed with a Lumagen firmware update, or does it have to be fixed on JVCs end?

Id love to get one of the new NZ laser pjs, but I don’t want to be stuck using the pre-production JVC firmware


----------



## jrp

asharma said:


> Hi folks…Just received the Spears and Munsil 4K disc…With a LRP in the loop, what should the config screen be set to on the disc? For Luminance the choices are 600 nits, 1000 nits, 2000 nits, 4000 nits, 10,000 nits…
> 
> also I’m running BT2020 normal so should HDR Gamut on the disc be set to P3D65|BT2020 or just BT2020?


Content is usually (but not always) mastered at 1000 or 4000 nits. This Spears and Munsil disc allows you to see how 1000 nit graded content will look by choosing 1000 nits, and how 4000 nit graded content should look by choosing 4000 nits. That is they are changing the grading for each selection.

I am not sure if the Bt.2020 is much different than P3D65|Bt.2020 modes. I would guess (but am not sure) that the only difference is the P3 version is limited to a P3 Gamut since all HDR content must be in a HDR Rec2020 container from sources.


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> Please send an email again at the Lumagen.com support email (or call and leave a message at 503-574-2211). Note that our SPAM filter has been overactive of late. If you do not hear back from me within a day or so, please call our main line and select Option 2, let us know your email (please speak slowly and clearly and spell it out), and then resend. I can then go into the SPAM filter and whitelist your email. Or if prefer a call back, let us know that as well (and leave your number of course).


Jim,

It might not be necessary for me to speak to you.
Kris Deering was kind enough to contact me via my cellphone this afternoon and will be reconnecting with me later today.
From what Kris has already said to me I'm confident he knows how to resolve what I'm wanting.

Thanks for the Super-Quick reply,
Terry


----------



## jqmn

jrp said:


> I am recommending that the CMS0 (for SDR) and CMS1 (for HDR) both have their output "Colorspace" set to SDR2020, with the conversion entry set to "Auto convert."
> 
> In this case for SDR Rec 709 content the Radiance Pro uses the SMTPE colorspace conversion equations to convert Rec 709 to Rec 2020. There are two conversion equation sets in the standard. The Radiance Pro uses the equation set intended to preserve the Rec709 colors most accurately.
> 
> For Rec 709 content, there will not be any colors outside the Rec709 color Gamut in this case since the equations preserve the source Rec709 color points accurately. It you have a projector that is accurate for both Rec709 and for Rec2020, you should not be able to see any differences using this set up versus if you choose to output Colorspace = SDR709 for CMS0 (used for SDR).


Thank-you. Very helpful as always.


----------



## jrp

jbrinegar said:


> Jim, is this something that can be fixed with a Lumagen firmware update, or does it have to be fixed on JVCs end?
> 
> Id love to get one of the new NZ laser pjs, but I don’t want to be stuck using the pre-production JVC firmware


This is a bug in the JVC firmware. It must be fixed by a JVC NZ firmware update. JVC is aware of the issue, but I am not sure if/when a fix will be forthcoming.

If you heed my advice and not enable laser dimming, I do not think there is much if anything significant missing in the preproduction release. I believe Kris Deering posted a while back on the differences if you want to go back and search.


----------



## Dave Harper

Ilushka85 said:


> I have a lumagen that Kris deering setup but wanted to understand why the projector is set to sdr when using the lumagen ?





OzHDHT said:


> The Lumagen is doing the DTM for you so you don't want the pj in HDR mode, only BT2020 ie SDR2020.





Ilushka85 said:


> But doesnt this leave out some detail that would be contained in the hdr data ?





OzHDHT said:


> No because that's the whole point of DTM. It's already taken care what it needs with HDR source. You can set an HDR flag on the Lumagen if you want a JVC projector to say select a preferred picture setting. My 4500 goes to User2 with my calibrated settings for example.





Ilushka85 said:


> But from my understanding isn’t that faking hdr ?





ckgolf said:


> What is your understanding? All tone mapping is technically faking HDR unless it’s a 4000 nit monitor. The Lumagen DTM is processing the HDR signal to match the brightness capabilities of the display. It sends it in a SDR container, but you are using all of the HDR that your display can handle.





aguy said:


> In a way yes.
> 
> But the truth is that NO projector is capable of displaying the brightness required for HDR.
> 
> so what happens normally is that when you feed a HDR signal to your projector then your projector translates the brightness levels to match its capabilities. That is the process known as tone mapping. It happens in OLEDS too as they can’t display proper HDR levels either.
> 
> What the lumagen does is take the tone mapping job away from your projector and does it itself. The lumagen dynamic tone mapping is considered amongst the best if not the best on the market and most of us much prefer it to the built in algorithm in our projectors.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keep in mind though, that “DTM” isn’t synonymous with converting HDR to SDR. You can keep the signal in an HDR ST2084 PQ mode if you wanted to, and still employ “DTM” (Dynamic Tone Mapping). This is the way I have to do it on my BenQ LK990 and Samsung LSP9T because it’s the only way I can use a BT2020 color gamut.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kottan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am currently projecting with a JVC 7900 onto a Stewart Studiotek 130 G4 (aspect ratio 2.4, 12ft 7inch screen width, a recent upgrade in my setup I did due to the praise this fabric - rightfully - received by Kris Deering) which gives me 50 nits. Sources are a Madvr PC and an Nvidia Shield Pro, the latter used for streaming, both sources connected to an Arcam AVR 390 which feeds the JVC. The Madvr PC sends an SDR2020 signal to the JVC that has a calibrated BT2020 mode with a gamma of 2.4 in high lamp mode. However, streaming via the Shield is a permanent hassle, be it the Shield getting stuck in 720p60 due to Edid issues, resyncing during a movie which takes painfully long on the JVC or of course no availability of DTM when streaming. Due to all the positive feedback on the Radiance, not least by Kris Deering - yes, again this guy - , I am thinking of adding a Lumagen Radiance to my setup. What I would like to have sorted out before pulling the trigger:
> 
> - Having the Radiance output everything in SDR2020: Where do I tell the Radiance that the JVC is calibrated to a gamma of 2.4? Or does setting the output colorspace to SDR2020 mean the Lumagen expects the projector to be at a gamma of 2.4? And will it pass the tonemapped SDR2020 signal from the PC to the JVC without altering the gamma - gamma factor 1? (I think the consensus is that the Lumagen‘s DTM is superior to the Madvr one‘s so that it might be better to have the PC output an HDR signal). And can the JVC (respectively the new Laser generation) be made to switch into a higher lamp setting when the HDR flag is on while still staying in non-tonemapping mode?
> 
> - auto aspect ratio without an anamorphic lens: I think I got that, have to shrink and turn scale bias to off to prevent scaling with 2.4 and 2.35 content.
> 
> - auto calibration: I have to upgrade to Chromapure3 with the AutoCal package, anbody with experience on doing an autocal with Chromapure?
> 
> Many thanks in advance!


I have a very similar setup. I find it best to disable MadVR and just let your PC output the HDR signal and let the lumagen do all the work.

You can add the HDR flag to the SDR2020 output so the JVC goes into HDR mode just make sure you set the JVC to 2.4 gamma. That way you can have high lamp mode for HDR content and low mode for SDR.


----------



## sunnya23

Has anyone watched the Netflix movie, The Power of the Dog? I was watching last night on my scope screen with auto-aspect enabled. Movie is also in the scope format. Started out fine and detected scope, but during the transition chapter moments where we have an all black frame the auto aspect would go into I believe 2.2 with very minimal pillarboxing and slight letterboxing. One such moment is at the 33:00 minute mark. At first I though the movie had VAR but it would correct itself after a few minutes. The the next transition black frame it did the same. To combat this on my Lumagen remote I forced the 2.35:1 ratio and the rest of the movie was fine afterwards. Just wanted to see if this is something that can be reproduced or was some issue on my end.


----------



## dgkula

Right around the time Joker was released in early 2020 I started having audio drop outs only when playing uhd br media on my panny 820. Only with this source. Other sources are roku and shield. Chain is panny > lumagen > Denon avr. All sources into lumagen. I have all 18g outputs. I called and spoke with Jim. I honestly don't remember what we changed except making all the cables in/out of the lumagen the certified monoprice except for the ruipro to the projector. I was using a short blue jeans non-certified cable from the lumagen audio out to the avr. I have not had an audio drop out since. Just sharing this to let people know that it is possible to be drop out free!


----------



## Clark Burk

dgkula said:


> Right around the time Joker was released in early 2020 I started having audio drop outs only when playing uhd br media on my panny 820. Only with this source. Other sources are roku and shield. Chain is panny > lumagen > Denon avr. All sources into lumagen. I have all 18g outputs. I called and spoke with Jim. I honestly don't remember what we changed except making all the cables in/out of the lumagen the certified monoprice except for the ruipro to the projector. I was using a short blue jeans non-certified cable from the lumagen audio out to the avr. I have not had an audio drop out since. Just sharing this to let people know that it is possible to be drop out free!


Good that you got if corrected now. If you weren't aware there's a new firmware 1.69 for the Panny that came out about 3 months ago. It corrected some play issues with DV and triple layer discs.


----------



## jbrinegar

jrp said:


> This is a bug in the JVC firmware. It must be fixed by a JVC NZ firmware update. JVC is aware of the issue, but I am not sure if/when a fix will be forthcoming.
> 
> If you heed my advice and not enable laser dimming, I do not think there is much if anything significant missing in the preproduction release. I believe Kris Deering posted a while back on the differences if you want to go back and search.


Thank you for the info Jim.

I realize the recommendation is to not use the laser dimming, but it would be a difficult thing for me to give up as I really value this feature (even if it does interfere with the Lumagen DTM)

Does anyone here that has the new NZ model notice a difference on laser dimming between the pre production firmware and the latest NZ firmware?

I think for me Ill wait to see if the NZ line next firmware update would fix the bug affecting lumagen compatibility


----------



## Kris Deering

jbrinegar said:


> Thank you for the info Jim.
> 
> I realize the recommendation is to not use the laser dimming, but it would be a difficult thing for me to give up as I really value this feature (even if it does interfere with the Lumagen DTM)
> 
> Does anyone here that has the new NZ model notice a difference on laser dimming between the pre production firmware and the latest NZ firmware?
> 
> I think for me Ill wait to see if the NZ line next firmware update would fix the bug affecting lumagen compatibility


I’ve tested both quite a bit and see no difference in performance. As I’ve posted many times already and have demonstrated quite a bit, I am not a fan of the laser dimming.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I’ve tested both quite a bit and see no difference in performance. As I’ve posted many times already and have demonstrated quite a bit, I am not a fan of the laser dimming.


Without laser dimming turned on, with my Sony 885ES, I don't get the full fade-to-black (laser off), which I quite like.


----------



## Nima

The preproduction JVC firmware also only has Standard and HighRes under MPC settings instead of standard, highres1 and highres2. 

I hope HighRes on preproduction firmware is HighRes 1 on production firmware.


----------



## EVH78

I hope that Lumagen and JVC will find a solution soon to get back to current firmwares!


----------



## KarlKlammer

Has anyone with a JVC NZ unit ever tried to put an HDfury between Radiance and projector to avoid a firmware downgrade to preproduction?


----------



## Kris Deering

KarlKlammer said:


> Has anyone with a JVC NZ unit ever tried to put an HDfury between Radiance and projector to avoid a firmware downgrade to preproduction?


Jim mentioned trying that, but neither of us have a Fury to put in between. If someone wants to try it, that would be great! I have one of their models on order, but haven't seen anything about shipping.


----------



## Dave Harper

Kris Deering said:


> Jim mentioned trying that, but neither of us have a Fury to put in between. If someone wants to try it, that would be great! I have one of their models on order, but haven't seen anything about shipping.


I have an Integral, Vertex1 and an Arcana I could loan out if someone pays for shipping both ways?


----------



## Kris Deering

I talked to one of the guys at JVC today. They are going to get a Lumagen after CES and start troubleshooting the "blip" issue we see with the latest firmware.

Some other thoughts on this, this started when JVC gave me a beta software that had some HDMI tweaks for when the signal changes (output restarts) and for the Xbox. It wasn't until this firmware that we started seeing the problem (the few before that were fine). They also did an HDMI revision because they were having issues with Marantz processors, I was hoping this would fix this issue too. It seemed to for almost two days of use, but then it was there again. With a new HDMI 2.1 input chip, I'm sure they are going to have some growing pains (everyone else with one did). I also see the same blip when I am using my Murideo test generator, so it is not just the Lumagen that this is an issue with.

I think if JVC has the chance to fix it, they definitely will. Jim has offered to loan them a Lumagen to use here and/or in Japan to get to the bottom of it. He also offered to help them with troubleshooting and looking at their input design. He has gone to every length to ensure they know he'd like to see this resolved on their side.


----------



## Hawks07

Kris Deering said:


> Jim mentioned trying that, but neither of us have a Fury to put in between. If someone wants to try it, that would be great! I have one of their models on order, but haven't seen anything about shipping.


If you are in Sammamish in the near future you can swing by and grab my Vertex2.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I talked to one of the guys at JVC today. They are going to get a Lumagen after CES and start troubleshooting the "blip" issue we see with the latest firmware.
> 
> Some other thoughts on this, this started when JVC gave me a beta software that had some HDMI tweaks for when the signal changes (output restarts) and for the Xbox. It wasn't until this firmware that we started seeing the problem (the few before that were fine). They also did an HDMI revision because they were having issues with Marantz processors, I was hoping this would fix this issue too. It seemed to for almost two days of use, but then it was there again. With a new HDMI 2.1 input chip, I'm sure they are going to have some growing pains (everyone else with one did). I also see the same blip when I am using my Murideo test generator, so it is not just the Lumagen that this is an issue with.
> 
> I think if JVC has the chance to fix it, they definitely will. Jim has offered to loan them a Lumagen to use here and/or in Japan to get to the bottom of it. He also offered to help them with troubleshooting and looking at their input design. He has gone to every length to ensure they know he'd like to see this resolved on their side.


That's good news as I guess with the upcoming NP5 the option to revert to an older firmware probably won't be available.


----------



## Nima

Btw if I want to upgrade from that preproduction firmware to the newest one, how would I do that? 

I cannot see a firmware download page for the NZ series.


----------



## KarlKlammer

That is an issue, I would have with downgrading - and the fact that the german JVC service only supports versions that are officially released and downloadable.


----------



## EVH78

Unfortunately there is no other choice than downgrading.


----------



## KarlKlammer

So you tried an HDfury without success?


----------



## EVH78

Nope, I did not consider that since I am not willing to put anything additional into my video chain.


----------



## KarlKlammer

The risk of losing warranty should anything go wrong is not an option either.
This is not an experience that I would like to repeat.


----------



## Nima

@jrp I wrote an Email to support regarding the official firmware and update from the pre production firmware. 

TIA


----------



## EVH78

The loss of warranty was not communicated by either Jim or Kris, so I don´t think there is any risk taken.


----------



## EVH78

Nima said:


> @jrp I wrote an Email to support regarding the official firmware and update from the pre production firmware.
> 
> TIA


I am happy to do the same. Could you share the email address?


----------



## MDesigns

Anyone tried routing video from Lumagen through AVR to the projector? Might fix the issue too without HdFury.


----------



## Geof

dgkula said:


> Right around the time Joker was released in early 2020 I started having audio drop outs only when playing uhd br media on my panny 820. Only with this source. Other sources are roku and shield. Chain is panny > lumagen > Denon avr. All sources into lumagen. I have all 18g outputs. I called and spoke with Jim. I honestly don't remember what we changed except making all the cables in/out of the lumagen the certified monoprice except for the ruipro to the projector. I was using a short blue jeans non-certified cable from the lumagen audio out to the avr. I have not had an audio drop out since. Just sharing this to let people know that it is possible to be drop out free!


When I first started experiencing audio dropouts I got concerned after reading this thread. And of course I started down the road of playing with cables but nothing I did resolved the issue [I did not have the Apple Tv at the time, just the Oppo]. When I get the Apple TV I cabled it up with a 3m cable (it worked pretty well with a 3m cable but not 100% until I switched to a 4m cable). That was my first brealthru...I've had no dropouts with it since . So, I also used a 4M Bullet Train cable from the Oppo but it was still experiencing dropouts.

Bypassing the LRP entirely proved the Oppo UDP-203 was the source of the dropouts. It's become rather finicky. The occasional dropout morphed into more frequent dropouts - _Atomic Blonde_ would play fine one day and had frequent dropouts a few days later. Then it experienced random freezing (A+V) from 1-4 seconds. It became clear this was not a cable issue. I replaced the Oppo with a Reavon and have had *0* issues since.

My advice to fellow Oppo UDP-203 owners is if you're experiencing random audio dropouts do not automatically assume the problem lies elsewhere. That may well be the case but then again it may be the Oppo. (Mine is currently in transit to Oppo for repair so it will be interesting to get it back and try it out).

EDITED for clarity


----------



## EVH78

MDesigns said:


> Anyone tried routing video from Lumagen through AVR to the projector? Might fix the issue too without HdFury.


Good idea! Unfortunately for now I am stuck with the pre-production firmware!


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> When I first started experiencing audio dropouts I got concerned after reading this thread. And of course I started down the road of playing with cables but nothing I did resolved the issue. My first break came when I tried a 4m AVPro Bullet Train cable connecting the Apple Tv to the LRP - I've had no dropouts since (it worked pretty well with a 3m cable but not 100% until I switched to a 4m cable). I also used a 4M Bullet Train cable from the Oppo but it was still experiencing dropouts.
> 
> Bypassing the LRP entirely proved the Oppo UDP-203 was the source of the dropouts. It's become rather finicky. The occasional dropout morphed into more frequent dropouts - _Atomic Blonde_ would play fine one day and had frequent dropouts a few days later. Then it experienced random freezing (A+V) from 1-4 seconds. It became clear this was not a cable issue. I replaced the Oppo with a Reavon and have had *0* issues since.
> 
> My advice to fellow Oppo UDP-203 owners is if you're experiencing random audio dropouts do not automatically assume the problem lies elsewhere. That may well be the case but then again it may be the Oppo. (Mine is currently in transit to Oppo for repair so it will be interesting to get it back and try it out).


This doesn't make a lot of sense. First of all, a dropout caused by the Oppo 203 would very likely result in a different "kind" of dropout (which you've described, audio AND video sometimes dropping out). This is different than the audio-only drop out I (and others) experience.

Also, you mention you first break came when connecting an Apple TV with a longer cable (4m). But then you say you proved the source of the dropouts was your Oppo 203. But your post implies you WERE having dropouts with the Apple TV, which has nothing to do with the Oppo 203.

Not being snarky, but I do question your conclusions a bit, based on the descriptions you've provided. I have no doubt your Oppo is getting flaky (hence the AV freezing you get). This, AGAIN, has nothing to do with audio drop outs that some of us are getting when routing any source device through the Lumagen.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> This doesn't make a lot of sense. First of all, a dropout caused by the Oppo 203 would very likely result in a different "kind" of dropout (which you've described, audio AND video sometimes dropping out). This is different than the audio-only drop out I (and others) experience.
> 
> Also, you mention you first break came when connecting an Apple TV with a longer cable (4m). But then you say you proved the source of the dropouts was your Oppo 203. But your post implies you WERE having dropouts with the Apple TV, which has nothing to do with the Oppo 203.
> 
> Not being snarky, but I do question your conclusions a bit, based on the descriptions you've provided. I have no doubt your Oppo is getting flaky (hence the AV freezing you get). This, AGAIN, has nothing to do with audio drop outs that some of us are getting when routing any source device through the Lumagen.


I reworded that post to make it more clear [I hope].
As far as the conclusions I've reached they are indisputable. 4M cables and a replacement for the Oppo has resolved the dropouts for me.

---

Audio dropouts were happening. What was the cause and how to fix? Reading this forum indicted the LRP.

At first I did not have the Apple TV. Just the Oppo. Nothing i did resolved audio dropouts. Then I got the Apple Tv. More dropouts with it. Two sources with dropouts seem to point the finger at the LRP. So I change configuration - the LRP now drives the projector and is out of the audio path - it still has dropouts. More testing with cables and I got the Apple Tv working with no dropouts. Going from a 3m cable to 4m resolved the issue with Apple TV so i try that 4m cable on the Oppo expecting the problem to resolve like it did with the Apple Tv. Nope. All along the Oppo was experiencing random non-repeatable audio dropouts. Then it morphed into video and audio freeze ups. Replaced the Oppo with the Reavon and 0 issues since. So I don't know what doesn't make sense but that's what happened and it took time to sort out the Oppo issue with the 3m cable issue.


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> Btw if I want to upgrade from that preproduction firmware to the newest one, how would I do that?
> 
> I cannot see a firmware download page for the NZ series.


I can provide Jim the latest firmware so he can post it as well. If JVC releases a future firmware with a fix, it will be posted on JVC's website.


----------



## Kris Deering

MDesigns said:


> Anyone tried routing video from Lumagen through AVR to the projector? Might fix the issue too without HdFury.


Jim did this with his Trinnov and it seemed to work well, though the Trinnov had some issues with 4K60 video (one of the reasons Lumagen typically doesn't recommend using an AVR/SSP for video switching). But might be worth a shot.


----------



## fatherom

Geof said:


> the LRP now drives the projector and is out of the audio path - it still has dropouts


Right there is the difference...for those of us that have drop-out issues, removing the LRP from the audio path DOES eliminate all dropouts.


----------



## Chicagobear1

If anyone is thinking the Reavon 4k bluray player. They work lovely with the Lumagen pro. Especially the source direct. Easily as good as the oppo for playback with the Lumagen


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> Right there is the difference...for those of us that have drop-out issues, removing the LRP from the audio path DOES eliminate all dropouts.


I'm just relating my expeience. Others (obviously not you) may find it useful. Others may have the same issue as you do.

Personally i expected the Oppo to be bulletproof - as I'm sure most here do as well. But in my situation it absolutely was a problem. The LRP was not (for me).


----------



## Geof

Chicagobear1 said:


> If anyone is thinking the Reavon 4k bluray player. They work lovely with the Lumagen pro. Especially the source direct. Easily as good as the oppo for playback with the Lumagen


I'm happy with mine. Works well, 0 issues (knock on wood). Not quite as refined as the Oppo but in most every respect it's an Oppo clone.


----------



## EVH78

Good idea, thank you!



Kris Deering said:


> I can provide Jim the latest firmware so he can post it as well. If JVC releases a future firmware with a fix, it will be posted on JVC's website.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Geof said:


> I'm happy with mine. Works well, 0 issues (knock on wood). Not quite as refined as the Oppo but it most every respect it's an Oppo clone.


Definitely agree hopefully in the next year with a few software updates it will be smooth as butter. A nice marriage combi with the pro


----------



## Nima

EVH78 said:


> Good idea, thank you!


Well appreciated! Thanks


----------



## Clark Burk

Chicagobear1 said:


> If anyone is thinking the Reavon 4k bluray player. They work lovely with the Lumagen pro. Especially the source direct. Easily as good as the oppo for playback with the Lumagen


I’m sure the Reavon is good with disc playback. What really makes the OPPO stand out from the crowd for me is it’s excellent file playback capability. The OPPO can play BDMV movie folders with DV over network which the Reavon players still did have that capability the last I saw. If the Reavon players could get that feature working, that would make it a good OPPO replacement. Granted the interface for both is a little primitive.
As Geoff stated, his OPPO likely had a laser issue that should be able to be fixed. That is the downside of lasers. They don’t last forever.


----------



## fatherom

Chicagobear1 said:


> If anyone is thinking the Reavon 4k bluray player. They work lovely with the Lumagen pro. Especially the source direct. Easily as good as the oppo for playback with the Lumagen


Except the Reavon lacks some of the great file playback functionality that I use all the time on my Oppo 203.


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> I’m sure the Reavon is good with disc playback. What really makes the OPPO stand out from the crowd for me is it’s excellent file playback capability. The OPPO can play BDMV movie folders with DV over network which the Reavon players still did have that capability the last I saw. If the Reavon players could get that feature working, that would make it a good OPPO replacement. Granted the interface for both is a little primitive.
> As Geoff stated, his OPPO likely had a laser issue that should be able to be fixed. That is the downside of lasers. They don’t last forever.


Yes, the Reavon is kind of bare bones. In my case I'm planning to put the Oppo back and move the Reavon to a TV. It has a number of small things I don't like compared to the Oppo (no power on/off, just toggle power, have to start up player to remove disc - and it does not respond quickly as it's busy loading the disc -and the setup menu is only accessable if the disc is not playing. It lacks the Oppo refinements but it's solid disc spinner.


----------



## jrp

Chicagobear1 said:


> ... I'm sure your referring to me here Jim. This is correct a very well known member in the UK jockychan. Came over to mine and compared my madVR Envy extreme with the pro. I have to admit once the pro DTM and other things where setup correctly by jockychan after we compared both units. The lumagen wiped the floor against my MadVR Envy Extreme especially with the DTM and scaling. I'm selling my Envy extreme thanks Jim.


Chicagobear1:

To close the loop on your post, your system is one of the ones I had heard about where the customer did the comparison and is switching to the Radiance Pro. I did not know jockychan by that handle, as Gordon surmised.

Thanks for taking the time to post your results. They are consistent with others who have done the comparison, but it is always nice to have additional confirmation.


----------



## jrp

Update on the pipeline enhancement release:

Patrick had a nice break over Christmas holiday, but is back at it. He sent me an engineering release for the pipeline enhancements that works with both 3840x2160 and 4096x2160 output if the output aspect is set to 16:9. There is a bug when the output aspect is set to 2.35 or 2.40. Patrick is working on this and completing some other work. Not sure when we will be able to send out the Alpha release to those who have signed up, but it might be next week or perhaps the week after. We are in the debug and timing synthesis phase, and it is difficult to predict just how long this will take, especially since the work affects the entire video pipeline.

I am definitely seeing image quality improvements which take the Pro from having the best image quality to an even higher level.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> Right there is the difference...for those of us that have drop-out issues, removing the LRP from the audio path DOES eliminate all dropouts.


To be clear my current configuration has all sources connected to the LRP and it's audio output (1) feeds the MC-10. The only exception being the Reavon whose audio output feeds the MC-10 directly.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Update on the pipeline enhancement release:
> 
> Patrick had a nice break over Christmas holiday, but is back at it. He sent me an engineering release for the pipeline enhancements that works with both 3840x2160 and 4096x2160 output if the output aspect is set to 16:9. There is a bug when the output aspect is set to 2.35 or 2.40. Patrick is working on this and completing some other work. Not sure when we will be able to send out the Alpha release to those who have signed up, but it might be next week or perhaps the week after. We are in the debug and timing synthesis phase, and it is difficult to predict just how long this will take, especially since the work affects the entire video pipeline.
> 
> I am definitely seeing image quality improvements which take the Pro from having the best image quality to an even higher level.


Jim, I think I know the answer...just want to confirm. I haven't updated the f/w on my lumagen in a few months (no real reason, just haven't gotten around to it). Is it still safe to jump from any f/w version to any other one (i.e. not having to install interim versions). And when this pipeline release officially comes out, will that also be the case for that f/w?

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> Update on the pipeline enhancement release:
> 
> Patrick had a nice break over Christmas holiday, but is back at it. He sent me an engineering release for the pipeline enhancements that works with both 3840x2160 and 4096x2160 output if the output aspect is set to 16:9. There is a bug when the output aspect is set to 2.35 or 2.40. Patrick is working on this and completing some other work. Not sure when we will be able to send out the Alpha release to those who have signed up, but it might be next week or perhaps the week after. We are in the debug and timing synthesis phase, and it is difficult to predict just how long this will take, especially since the work affects the entire video pipeline.
> 
> I am definitely seeing image quality improvements which take the Pro from having the best image quality to an even higher level.


Just wonder dose this update need and new calibration? Hope Not 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bill DePalma

Question:
I just purchased a used A JVCRS2000 with 1000 hours on the bulb. I also have a RS600 with about 1500 bulb hours. Setting up the 2000 side by side with the 600 (both being fed by the Lumagen 4242), the 600 is so much brighter. The question is, do I change the settings in the Lumagen to somehow reflect the new projector to get it into the same quality ballpark as the 600? As an aside, the processing by the Lumagen to the 600 is pretty incredible, removing the Lumagen from the signal path the 600 is quite dim and flat.
This is just standard rec.709 stuff, I have not even looked at HDR. I did the set up in the Lumagen for the 600, I don’t remember setting anything particularly unique to the 600. I assumed I could just use the same settings for the 2000. Am I wrong?


----------



## dlinsley

Bill DePalma said:


> I just purchased a used A JVCRS2000 with 1000 hours on the bulb. I also have a RS600 with about 1500 bulb hours. Setting up the 2000 side by side with the 600 (both being fed by the Lumagen 4242), the 600 is so much brighter.


There are a few things going on at the hardware level (such as bulb lottery, and that the RS2000 is spreading light over a 17:9 panel so if you are using a 16:9 screen you are down 7% brightness already), but did you check that the iris setting on the RS2000 is appropriate?


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Jim, I think I know the answer...just want to confirm. I haven't updated the f/w on my lumagen in a few months (no real reason, just haven't gotten around to it). Is it still safe to jump from any f/w version to any other one (i.e. not having to install interim versions). And when this pipeline release officially comes out, will that also be the case for that f/w?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


Yes, you can jump from an old release to the latest release, skipping any intervening releases.


----------



## jrp

A7mad78 said:


> Just wonder dose this update need and new calibration? Hope Not


There are no algorithm changes in the pipeline enhancements that would necessitate a recalibration. So, you will just do the update.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> There are no algorithm changes in the pipeline enhancements that would necessitate a recalibration. So, you will just do the update.


That’s great thanks for all ur great effort to make the pro up to date 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## appelz

A7mad78 said:


> That’s great thanks for all ur great effort to make the pro up to date
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bummer. All of my scheduled projects for the next 6+ weeks are in cold climates. I was hoping for another trip back to Bahrain!


----------



## A7mad78

appelz said:


> Bummer. All of my scheduled projects for the next 6+ weeks are in cold climates. I was hoping for another trip back to Bahrain!


Hahhaha ur always most welcome the wether now is even batter prepare ur self for an F1 race visit 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bill DePalma

dlinsley said:


> There are a few things going on at the hardware level (such as bulb lottery, and that the RS2000 is spreading light over a 17:9 panel so if you are using a 16:9 screen you are down 7% brightness already), but did you check that the iris setting on the RS2000 is appropriate?


Yes, both iris settings are the same same. But thanks for panel info, but it would appear as more than 7%, although I understand what you are saying. I was just wondering if I needed to account for anything in the LRP in regards to the 2000. Maybe I’m missing some setup in the 2000 that would account for the difference. I’ll keep working
Thanks


----------



## GeorgeHolland

Not to dispute or diminish audio drop-out issues a few users are reporting but I haven’t had any problems I haven’t been able to resolve.

I’ve had a Pro 4242 for 4 years. I’m sure I’ve had connection issues over that time and Jim has always talked me through them and changing cables always resolved any problems I’ve had. I’ve always used the Lumagen as my video switcher.

After getting an RS3100 and adding the Lumagen to the chain I started having audio drop-outs. Came to find the HDMI cable I had been using was an old 4 foot long Blue Jeans Cable. I never felt I needed a high-speed certified cable for audio and I wasn’t having audio drop-outs with the previous RS2000 or RS500.

I replaced the Blue Jeans Cable with an extra 3-meter Tributaries cable I had and problem solved, no more drop outs and I didn’t even need to waste Jim’s valuable time. Not sure why or if audio is any different or more sensitive when connecting a LRP to the RS3100 but I know Jim recommends 9-foot cables for video, maybe they are more reliable for audio as well.

Sources are Oppo 203, Xfinity X1 and a Roku Ultra 4K I just replaced with an Apple TV 4K+.


----------



## Chicagobear1

jrp said:


> Chicagobear1:
> 
> To close the loop on your post, your system is one of the ones I had heard about where the customer did the comparison and is switching to the Radiance Pro. I did not know jockychan by that handle, as Gordon surmised.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to post your results. They are consistent with others who have done the comparison, but it is always nice to have additional confirmation.


Thanks Jim


----------



## Bill DePalma

dlinsley said:


> There are a few things going on at the hardware level (such as bulb lottery, and that the RS2000 is spreading light over a 17:9 panel so if you are using a 16:9 screen you are down 7% brightness already), but did you check that the iris setting on the RS2000 is appropriate?


Wanted to update you. I took a breath and checked a few things and now everything is working as expected. I think I was just the experiencing the opposite of bias confirmation, always expecting less. Thanks for your info.


----------



## J. Atkinson

jrp said:


> HDR is about a "Gamma" curve Bt.2084, which itself is a reasonably simple math function. The Bt.2084 standard is actually straight forward. Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) is not. Working on the standard does not itself provide insight into DTM.
> 
> Does the Sim2 have a true DTM tone mapping? No Static Tone Mapping, which I actually believe the Sim2 has (partly because they do not even mention DTM in their literature that I see), can compete with the current Radiance Pro DTM. No need to even view STM, the math alone shows it cannot compete. Sony calls their Tone Mapping "dynamic" but it is STM. It is easy to show how STM fails, and this is true of the Sony. It is okay for average scenes but fails on both very bright and very dark scenes. This is going to be true of every STM algorithm.
> 
> Lumagen provides the best DTM for HDR on the planet. It is being used by Jon Thompson, who is a producer doing prost-production for a major studio for the consumer HDR releases he works on. He uses a Dolby Cinema projector driven by the Radiance Pro DTM. This is essentially a Christie Eclipse, but adds the DCI front end. His comment to me was the Radiance Pro DTM is "sublime." I can confidently say if the Pro DTM did not beat the Sim2, you have it set up wrong (or as has happened before, used too old of a release). It is fairly easy to setup, and I can help if your want. Should you want to do a fair comparison, we can discuss getting your Radiance Pro setup correctly.
> 
> True DTM requires scene detection and the ability to set the transfer function for every scene at least, or for every scene and every frame as the Radiance Pro does. Without this, it is Static Tone Mapping. I would be interested in if Sim2 does actually have Dynamic Tone Mapping. If so let us know.
> 
> Every projector needs HDR Tone Mapping. You would need 4000 nits output (like a Pulsar monitor has) to eliminate the need for Tone Mapping. Saying any 10000 Lumen projector (GTZ-380 for example) does not need HDR Tone Mapping is on its face incorrect. The calibrators I talk to do not even use full output on laser on the GTZ-380 or other 10000 Lumen projectors as it is "too bright" for everyone I have talked to for a home cinema.
> 
> We have a growing number of Radiance Pro units driving GTZ-380 projectors. Every comment from owners and calibrators I have received says the Radiance Pro takes the GTZ-380, or any projector, image quality up to the level of amazing.
> 
> Please understand that I am not saying anything negative about the Sim2 projector. I am sure it is an excellent projector. However, I am saying that use with a properly set up, and hopefully calibrated, Radiance Pro would improve its image quality.


Jim,

Thanks for the excellent reply.

First my apologies for my quick statements that weren’t properly written.

Obviously the GTZ needs tone mapping! It’s not bright enough. However it’s brighter than many other projectors and comes closer to achieving the real thing. Can we agree that sunlit beaches and ocean scenes look far more realistic on a GTZ compared to a JVC or Sim2 who both use tone mapping well?

As for Sim2 and their tone mapping. I can only go on what I’ve seen. To me their HDR kicks ass. A Lumagen was in the system. When the Lumagen was off, the Sim2 looked better.

Multiple people thought so.

The Lumagen made every other projector we tested in that system look stunning. Even the Sim2 looked soooo much better on the Lumagen for streamed Content. It was only on 4K Blu ray on the Sim2 when it didn’t.

Now maybe it wasn’t calibrated correctly for the Sim2. That doesn’t look good for the dealer, and the support the dealer got in this case was according to them “not helpful in fixing the issues with the Sim2”

In private message if you’d like I will gladly give your their info.

Sim2 is a weird company in giving up info. However they claim their tone mapping is dynamic. Any test I can do to confirm?


----------



## fanfan00000043

hi guys, I have a issue that confused me .
I got my brand new lumagen 4242 with 18G , and connect with my apple tv 4k，and I notice that when i set my apple tv 4k hdr 60hz, the projector looks like 1080p 。it looks normal until the set is under 4k sdr 24p. how can i fix it please


----------



## desray2k

fanfan00000043 said:


> hi guys, I have a issue that confused me .
> I got my brand new lumagen 4242 with 18G , and connect with my apple tv 4k，and I notice that when i set my apple tv 4k hdr 60hz, the projector looks like 1080p 。it looks normal until the set is under 4k sdr 24p. how can i fix it please


I believe English is not your first language...but really not sure what you are asking? You might want to explain more clearly. For instance, did you do a simple check HDMI connection on the Apple TV under the Video & Audio setting? The optimum setting that you should set as an Apple TV user is to make sure you've selected 4K SDR 59.94Hz under Format setting, Match Dynamic Range and framerate are turned on under Match Content setting. You can select 4:4:4 under Chroma setting if you have a stable HDMI cable connection otherwise select 4:2:0 if it provides you with a stable image.


----------



## bobof

fanfan00000043 said:


> hi guys, I have a issue that confused me .
> I got my brand new lumagen 4242 with 18G , and connect with my apple tv 4k，and I notice that when i set my apple tv 4k hdr 60hz, the projector looks like 1080p 。it looks normal until the set is under 4k sdr 24p. how can i fix it please


You might be noticing an issue that the forthcoming pipeline precision improvements are set to improve, which I only actually notice in use on the AppleTV home screen (the Netflix logo in particular). It goes away at 24p, which means it is a non-issue for most actual video content. For now you could choose to run the UI at 24p. Or just ignore it for now and get the benefit of the smoother UI animation.


----------



## MDesigns

J. Atkinson said:


> Obviously the GTZ needs tone mapping! It’s not bright enough. However it’s brighter than many other projectors and comes closer to achieving the real thing. Can we agree that sunlit beaches and ocean scenes look far more realistic on a GTZ compared to a JVC or Sim2 who both use tone mapping well?


IMO usually one pays the GTZ big bucks to light up a bigger screen, not for more brightness for a smaller screen. GTZ doesn't have any more contrast available than the smaller Sony's or JVC's, so with a smaller screen and hundreds of nits nits it would just turn turn the black level pretty bad. Sunlit beaches would probably look better, but then the next dark scene not so much.


----------



## Craig Peer

Geof said:


> I'm happy with mine. Works well, 0 issues (knock on wood). Not quite as refined as the Oppo but in most every respect it's an Oppo clone.


Yup - I like my Reavon player too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## J. Atkinson

MDesigns said:


> IMO usually one pays the GTZ big bucks to light up a bigger screen, not for more brightness for a smaller screen. GTZ doesn't have any more contrast available than the smaller Sony's or JVC's, so with a smaller screen and hundreds of nits nits it would just turn turn the black level pretty bad. Sunlit beaches would probably look better, but then the next dark scene not so much.


That is why tone mapping is needed is it not?

I can say I have no complaints on the GTZ’s contrast.


----------



## Clark Burk

I don't think tone mapping will help you much on the black levels.....


----------



## J. Atkinson

Clark Burk said:


> I don't think tone mapping will help you much on the black levels.....


Plus every other trick they use to make contrast pop. Trust me the GTZ does good dark in the same scenes. Remember the eye will see what it does and plays tricks. Great designers take advantage of this.


----------



## fanfan00000043

bobof said:


> You might be noticing an issue that the forthcoming pipeline precision improvements are set to improve, which I only actually notice in use on the AppleTV home screen (the Netflix logo in particular). It goes away at 24p, which means it is a non-issue for most actual video content. For now you could choose to run the UI at 24p. Or just ignore it for now and get the benefit of the smoother UI animation.


actully not only the apply tv UI，but all image is deteriorate under 4k 60p, for example youtube 4k test patten: it is very clear vertical lines without lumagen, but under apole tv 4k 60p and lumagen, it is totally unseen, it seems like lumagen 4242 18G cant accept bandwide over 9G.


----------



## fanfan00000043

desray2k said:


> I believe English is not your first language...but really not sure what you are asking? You might want to explain more clearly. For instance, did you do a simple check HDMI connection on the Apple TV under the Video & Audio setting? The optimum setting that you should set as an Apple TV user is to make sure you've selected 4K SDR 59.94Hz under Format setting, Match Dynamic Range and framerate are turned on under Match Content setting. You can select 4:4:4 under Chroma setting if you have a stable HDMI cable connection otherwise select 4:2:0 if it provides you with a stable image.


thanks for reply ,yes I know little english , but i am familier with video system, and what i am trying to say is lumagen deteriorate all image and texture under appletvs big bandwide video format like hdr 4k 60p, but the lumagen company announced that lumagen pro 18G can support 4k 60p input and output. I have try every method to solve it .


----------



## jwort93

fanfan00000043 said:


> thanks for reply ,yes I know little english , but i am familier with video system, and what i am trying to say is lumagen deteriorate all image and texture under appletvs big bandwide video format like hdr 4k 60p, but the lumagen company announced that lumagen pro 18G can support 4k 60p input and output. I have try every method to solve it .


Yes, this is a known issue with all 4K60p input, and as @bobof mentioned the upcoming pipeline improvements will resolve it.


----------



## bobof

fanfan00000043 said:


> actully not only the apply tv UI，but all image is deteriorate under 4k 60p, for example youtube 4k test patten: it is very clear vertical lines without lumagen, but under apole tv 4k 60p and lumagen, it is totally unseen, it seems like lumagen 4242 18G cant accept bandwide over 9G.


I mean that for my use in my home theatre I only see it in AppleTV menus because for me that is almost the only time I use 4K60 with 4K content (most of the time when the AppleTV is outputing 4K60 or 50 in UK it is only network-quality content, and that's only 1080p). There's nothing special about the AppleTV menus, so I'm sure it can be seen in other high-frequency 4K60 content.

I don't know enough about it to know if the video you are looking at in Youtube is the exact same issue and exactly what is being worked on with the pipeline things, but I guess it might be.


----------



## fanfan00000043

bobof said:


> I mean that for my use in my home theatre I only see it in AppleTV menus because for me that is almost the only time I use 4K60 with 4K content (most of the time when the AppleTV is outputing 4K60 or 50 in UK it is only network-quality content, and that's only 1080p). There's nothing special about the AppleTV menus, so I'm sure it can be seen in other high-frequency 4K60 content.
> 
> I don't know enough about it to know if the video you are looking at in Youtube is the exact same issue and exactly what is being worked on with the pipeline things, but I guess it might be.


thx bro , 4k 60p means lot to me because games and sport content need 60p ， hope that lumagen guys can solve the issue asap. after all , lumagen is a video processor, not a "film processor"


----------



## bobof

fanfan00000043 said:


> thx bro , 4k 60p means lot to me because games and sport content need 60p ， hope that lumagen guys can solve the issue asap. after all , lumagen is a video processor, not a "film processor"


Assuming the issue with that pattern is the same thing, then it is literally the thing they are working on now... see here:








New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


If anyone is thinking the Reavon 4k bluray player. They work lovely with the Lumagen pro. Especially the source direct. Easily as good as the oppo for playback with the Lumagen I'm happy with mine. Works well, 0 issues (knock on wood). Not quite as refined as the Oppo but in most every respect...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## jrp

Here is an unretouched photo (attached) of the "engineering version" of the pipeline enhancement release with an every-other vertical line pattern using 4k60 in and out (both 3840x2160). This was taken with my iPhone from the screen in the Lumagen Demo Theater which has a JVC RS4500. The RGB channel color convergence is not perfect, but you see the every other line pattern clearly.

I should note that using an every-other line pattern is misleading for evaluating a video processor. My analogy for this is that it is like looking for your keys by the lamppost, because the light is better, even though that is not where you lost them. Easy to see. Not very productive.

The reason is that an every other line pattern violates Nyquist sampling. It only works because the samples are coincident with the lines. If you instead use a zone plate to sweep the frequency up to every other line, you will see the response fall off and only snap back at the every-other-line "on-off" pattern. We do try to make every-other-line patterns look good since these patterns exist, but they should not be used to evaluate video processing. On the other hand, they are useful to see if a projector or TV is in "pixel perfect mode."

Even zone-plate patterns need to be used with caution since maximizing the zone-plate response has other negative consequences, like ringing. I actually decided to not fully optimize zone-plate patterns to allow us to implement Lumagen's NoRing(TM) scaling. For real world images eliminating ringing is critical to achieving the best image quality.

I believe evaluating real-world images, while harder to do, is still the only valid way to evaluate scaling and processing.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Here is an unretouched photo (attached) of the "engineering version" of the pipeline enhancement release with an every-other vertical line pattern using 4k60 in and out (both 3840x2160). This was taken with my iPhone from the screen in the Lumagen Demo Theater which has a JVC RS4500. The RGB channel color convergence is not perfect, but you see the every other line pattern clearly.
> 
> I should note that using an every-other line pattern is misleading for evaluating a video processor. My analogy for this is that it is like looking for your keys by the lamppost, because the light is better, even though that is not where you lost them. Easy to see. Not very productive.
> 
> The reason is that an every other line pattern violates Nyquist sampling. It only works because the samples are coincident with the lines. If you instead use a zone plate to sweep the frequency up to every other line, you will see the response fall off and only snap back at the every-other-line "on-off" pattern. We do try to make every-other-line patterns look good since these patterns exist, but they should not be used to evaluate video processing. On the other hand, they are useful to see if a projector or TV is in "pixel perfect mode."
> 
> Even zone-plate patterns need to be used with caution since maximizing the zone-plate response has other negative consequences, like ringing. I actually decided to not fully optimize zone-plate patterns to allow us to implement Lumagen's NoRing(TM) scaling. For real world images eliminating ringing is critical to achieving the best image quality.
> 
> I believe evaluating real-world images, while harder to do, is still the only valid way to evaluate scaling and processing.


So, like the Sufi Mulla Nasruddin‘s tale, it is really an “inner” hidden light that will “emerge” from the pipeline?


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> Here is an unretouched photo (attached) of the "engineering version" of the pipeline enhancement release with an every-other vertical line pattern using 4k60 in and out (both 3840x2160). This was taken with my iPhone from the screen in the Lumagen Demo Theater which has a JVC RS4500. The RGB channel color convergence is not perfect, but you see the every other line pattern clearly.
> 
> I should note that using an every-other line pattern is misleading for evaluating a video processor. My analogy for this is that it is like looking for your keys by the lamppost, because the light is better, even though that is not where you lost them. Easy to see. Not very productive.
> 
> The reason is that an every other line pattern violates Nyquist sampling. It only works because the samples are coincident with the lines. If you instead use a zone plate to sweep the frequency up to every other line, you will see the response fall off and only snap back at the every-other-line "on-off" pattern. We do try to make every-other-line patterns look good since these patterns exist, but they should not be used to evaluate video processing. On the other hand, they are useful to see if a projector or TV is in "pixel perfect mode."
> 
> Even zone-plate patterns need to be used with caution since maximizing the zone-plate response has other negative consequences, like ringing. I actually decided to not fully optimize zone-plate patterns to allow us to implement Lumagen's NoRing(TM) scaling. For real world images eliminating ringing is critical to achieving the best image quality.
> 
> I believe evaluating real-world images, while harder to do, is still the only valid way to evaluate scaling and processing.


That all sounds great but I'll admit most of my viewing is with 1080p 24 or 2160p 24 material. I'm all for advances in the Lumagen firmware but should I expect to see any difference in the movie files that I watch? Not that I'm complaining about the current playback, it looks great, but just trying to keep my expectations in check .


----------



## MDesigns

J. Atkinson said:


> *That is why tone mapping is needed is it not?*
> 
> I can say I have no complaints on the GTZ’s contrast.


*No*, tone mapping has nothing to do with black in any scene, it can't do anything to black. Also tone mapping should really do nothing in the really dark scenes when the projector can show those "natively".


----------



## J. Atkinson

MDesigns said:


> *No*, tone mapping has nothing to do with black in any scene, it can't do anything to black. Also tone mapping should really do nothing in the really dark scenes when the projector can show those "natively".


I thought it did things stuff close to the black with mapping not the black itself.


----------



## MDesigns

J. Atkinson said:


> I thought it did things stuff close to the black with mapping not the black itself.


That sounds more like a "contrast enhancer" -feature that clips the low and high end to make it look more contrasty, while at the same time actually suppressing the dynamic range. Isn't that how the Sony dynamic hdr enhancer works. That is not tone mapping per se.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> That all sounds great but I'll admit most of my viewing is with 1080p 24 or 2160p 24 material. I'm all for advances in the Lumagen firmware but should I expect to see any difference in the movie files that I watch? Not that I'm complaining about the current playback, it looks great, but just trying to keep my expectations in check .


There are precision improvements throughout the pipeline, but they are small for these cases.

The case for these source formats that is improving the most is 16:9 content when the Radiance Pro output is set to a 2.40 output aspect ratio. This is a down-scale case for 16:9 4k24 (and 4k50/4k60) content. The down-scaler is currently 10-bits and is going to 12-bits. So this will get more precision, and in addition the downscaler algorithm is being improved. I have not yet been able to test this case since there is a bug in the the pipeline-enhancement engineering-release for 2.35 and 2.40 output aspects at the moment.

The bigger improvements will be for content at 4k50, 4k60, 1080p50, 1080p60, 1080i50 and 1080i60, with 4k50 and 4k60 content the most improved. I have already been able to verify these improvements.

I will be interested in feedback on each of these cases since people tend to have differing opinions on just how big improvements are.


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> There are precision improvements throughout the pipeline, but they are small for these cases.
> 
> The case for these source formats that is improving the most is 16:9 content when the Radiance Pro output is set to a 2.40 output aspect ratio. This is a down-scale case for 16:9 4k24 (and 4k50/4k60) content. The down-scaler is currently 10-bits and is going to 12-bits. So this will get more precision, and in addition the downscaler algorithm is being improved. I have not yet been able to test this case since there is a bug in the the pipeline-enhancement engineering-release for 2.35 and 2.40 output aspects at the moment.
> 
> The bigger improvements will be for content at 4k50, 4k60, 1080p50, 1080p60, 1080i50 and 1080i60, with 4k50 and 4k60 content the most improved. I have already been able to verify these improvements.
> 
> I will be interested in feedback on each of these cases since people tend to have differing opinions on just how big improvements are.


Looking forward to these improvements as this is a lot of my case use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fanfan00000043

jrp said:


> Here is an unretouched photo (attached) of the "engineering version" of the pipeline enhancement release with an every-other vertical line pattern using 4k60 in and out (both 3840x2160). This was taken with my iPhone from the screen in the Lumagen Demo Theater which has a JVC RS4500. The RGB channel color convergence is not perfect, but you see the every other line pattern clearly.
> 
> I should note that using an every-other line pattern is misleading for evaluating a video processor. My analogy for this is that it is like looking for your keys by the lamppost, because the light is better, even though that is not where you lost them. Easy to see. Not very productive.
> 
> The reason is that an every other line pattern violates Nyquist sampling. It only works because the samples are coincident with the lines. If you instead use a zone plate to sweep the frequency up to every other line, you will see the response fall off and only snap back at the every-other-line "on-off" pattern. We do try to make every-other-line patterns look good since these patterns exist, but they should not be used to evaluate video processing. On the other hand, they are useful to see if a projector or TV is in "pixel perfect mode."
> 
> Even zone-plate patterns need to be used with caution since maximizing the zone-plate response has other negative consequences, like ringing. I actually decided to not fully optimize zone-plate patterns to allow us to implement Lumagen's NoRing(TM) scaling. For real world images eliminating ringing is critical to achieving the best image quality.
> 
> I believe evaluating real-world images, while harder to do, is still the only valid way to evaluate scaling and processing.


thx for your work dude, but not only the every other line , but all of the screen is deteriorated under 4k 60hz, it looks like 1080p or 2k. for example, 4k resolution test under 4k 60hz with lumagen:


----------



## fanfan00000043

fanfan00000043 said:


> thx for your work dude, but not only the every other line , but all of the screen is deteriorated under 4k 60hz, it looks like 1080p or 2k. for example, 4k resolution test under 4k 60hz with lumagen:


----------



## J. Atkinson

MDesigns said:


> That sounds more like a "contrast enhancer" -feature that clips the low and high end to make it look more contrasty, while at the same time actually suppressing the dynamic range. Isn't that how the Sony dynamic hdr enhancer works. That is not tone mapping per se.


Thats the thing they all use multiple things to change the PQ and I also have to repeat what manufacturers tell me.

Sim2 tells me their HDR looks so good because their designer was behind the first HDR monitors. I repeat what I am told and it made sense to me.

Im personally more an acoustics guy (HAA trained even). I do refreshers in acoustics constantly.

ISF I haven’t done since 2009 with Joe Kane.

Video has changed a lot since and I am trying to get a grasp on how HDR really works. I’ll likely reach out to Jim next week and see if he is up for me to make a visit and hands on with him, his product, and educate me so I don’t make anymore mistakes.

I’ll even get a Sim2 shipped to him so I can try and recreate what we saw, and then have him show us how the dealer may have made a calibration error.

It’s sounding like that may be what happened. However, Jim and others correct me if wrong: it’s possible for an algorithm to provide a different outcome?


----------



## jrp

fanfan00000043 said:


> thx for your work dude, but not only the every other line , but all of the screen is deteriorated under 4k 60hz, it looks like 1080p or 2k. for example, 4k resolution test under 4k 60hz with lumagen:


Perhaps you did not understand my point. As I said _all_ 4k60 and 4k50 content will be improved by the pipeline release. I only used the every-other line pattern since you referenced it.

Please be patient, and once it is released check it out.


----------



## Clark Burk

J. Atkinson said:


> Thats the thing they all use multiple things to change the PQ and I also have to repeat what manufacturers tell me.
> 
> Sim2 tells me their HDR looks so good because their designer was behind the first HDR monitors. I repeat what I am told and it made since to me.
> 
> Im personally more an acoustics guy (HAA trained even). I do refreshers in acoustics constantly.
> 
> ISF I haven’t done since 2009 with Joe Kane.
> 
> Video has changed a lot since and I am trying to get a grasp on how HDR really works. I’ll likely reach out to Jim next week and see if he is up for me to make a visit and hands on with him, his product, and educate me so I don’t make anymore mistakes.
> 
> I’ll even get a Sim2 shipped to him so I can try and recreate what we saw, and then have him show us how the dealer may have made a calibration error.
> 
> It’s sounding like that may be what happened. However, Jim and others correct me if wrong: it’s possible for an algorithm to provide a different outcome?


Wow!! That’s really all I have to say. I’m amazed someone like you is for real.


----------



## J. Atkinson

Clark Burk said:


> Wow!! That’s really all I have to say. I’m amazed someone like you is for real.


I hope that is a good thing. I really don’t ever want any of our readers to think I’m some expert on any one thing (and that subject I was an expert on for many years in testing I’ve decided to shelve forever on here because we don’t need the fights over it. Too many NDAs too). My years in the CI field and being a sales or marketing guy at a manufacturer (and to be honest if people worry about bias, the list is so huge I’d have to list what company I haven’t worked for in one form or another in say just TVs- it’s TCL. Every other manufacturer in TV wrote me checks at one point in time) however gives me a lot of knowledge I hope I can pass on.

I don’t know everything and I go to guys like Deering (he isn’t the only video bad ass out there) for help.

So when Forum members post test results and say “look Mr Atkinson you’re wrong!” I am going to find out why I was wrong and not do it again and improve my skill set.

I am far from perfect. I am knowledgeable enough to be extremely helpful to everyone about our entire industry and wise enough to pass on further insight by recommending the best experts I know of in specific fields. I have always been that way.

So say a client like ** **** comes along (true story) I give him enough data to help and then pass him on to Adam Pelz on all things sound. No real video decisions were needed in that phase of the project. I knew enough to excite ** **** and know without any doubt that I had handed him off to a real expert in acoustics. He never heard anything that could have been inaccurate from me. So I’m still THE expert to mr. ***. However I’m not an expert I’m a jack of all trades more like.

Throw that experience into the Forum as the new Editor. It means I have far more HT background than Mark BUT at a cost. I know enough to be massively helpful to the masses (and the majority of our readers) but enough to be extremely dangerous too. So if I don’t learn what I don’t know quickly here, everyone won’t benefit. Yet I know about video distribution products, power protection, audio distribution, architectural speakers, and how to build a world class theater for some of the most famous people alive. I do that by knowing I’m not the expert. I get them the expert for every aspect of the design. Or I just say call Keith Yates, Dennis Erskine, etc. and pick who you like best and I quietly consult on the side on the overall projects. So I know a lot but again enough to be dangerous here.

In the past since 2001 I came here as a member of the Forum to ask questions of the experts who patrol this place. When I say Science matters I’m not saying it to appease. I mean it. Answers with tests backing it up come from guys like Deering and Jim. They come from members all over the place. I came here to pass on your information to my clients. I had the tests to back it up too. Then I found an expert to answer the WHY and take the project to the best possible solution in the category they were experts in.

The difference is now I have to learn the WHY behind the WHATS. So if the Forum Members point me to an expert I’ll go ask that expert to educate me. Like they have with HDR. 

Im incredibly sorry if everyone here hasn’t figured out that I’m your tool. I can’t be a good tool without proper education and continued education. 

Im working hard on the foolish shooting from the hip statements on here and also on learning more (the great thing is the more I learn the more I can pass on).

If you don’t believe it because you can’t believe there is a fool out their who would believe a manufacturer’s pitch: I’m sorry to have disappointed you. It made sense to me. Guy designs first hdr monitor and has a decade experience with HDR before Lumagen, JVC, or anyone had a shot including as a projector designer may have an edge in the HDR algorithm. I mean he has been playing with the algorithm for almost exactly 10 more years than the others. Sorry for buying that. It still makes sense to me.

I’m however more than willing to be flat out proven wrong. So hopefully Jim and I can make the time quick (he has a business after all).


----------



## darksets

DigitalAV said:


> Both your tones blow, what's the endgame here? Neither of you will ever accept the other's stance, just reveling in a train wreck
> 
> Someone please review Sim2's DTM so we can end this. Good lord
> 
> EDIT- looks like not even DTM, gooder lord
> 
> Yours truly,
> The Tone Police


The old "equal distance approach". How about getting to the substance? Kris Deering has challenged specific claims and he seems to be right on. What exactly do you object to and why? This forum is about informing people about AV issues. I find your "hush hush, we are all friends here" approach objectionable. We would like to know the pros and cons of the av equipment on the market.


----------



## J. Atkinson

darksets said:


> The old "equal distance approach". How about getting to the substance? Kris Deering has challenged specific claims and he seems to be right on. What exactly do you object to and why? This forum is about informing people about AV issues. I find your "hush hush, we are all friends here" approach objectionable. We would like to know the pros and cons of the av equipment on the market.


Which is why I am going to go do my job: get educated on HDR from Jim if he will let me. It’s the only way as Editor to properly do my job and represent the science in the forum.


----------



## DigitalAV

darksets said:


> The old "equal distance approach". How about getting to the substance? Kris Deering has challenged specific claims and he seems to be right on. What exactly do you object to and why? This forum is about informing people about AV issues. I find your "hush hush, we are all friends here" approach objectionable. We would like to know the pros and cons of the av equipment on the market.


Lol ok


----------



## Clark Burk

Deleted


----------



## Clark Burk




----------



## fanfan00000043

jrp said:


> Perhaps you did not understand my point. As I said _all_ 4k60 and 4k50 content will be improved by the pipeline release. I only used the every-other line pattern since you referenced it.
> 
> Please be patient, and once it is released check it out.


Thats great！！appriciate your fantastic working, cant wait to update the new FW！its so important to me


----------



## J. Atkinson

Clark Burk said:


> Fortunately I have figured out exactly what a tool you are and I can‘t wait until you get Jim straightened out and correct him on all his unfounded information. We are so fortunate to have someone of your expertise to guide us in our way. I thank you for gracing us with your wisdom. In fact it is so beyond my comprehension of your abilities that I just can not continue to be in your countenance so I must unfortunately resort to the ignore function as I am not worthy.


I don’t think you understood. I said why I believed the manufacturers (Sim2) claim on HDR performance. Why be educated on HDR by an expert like Jim if I think the information provided is unfounded?

I’ve even offered to try and recreate the whole reason behind this fiasco. If everyone is right and my claim is impossible it should be a reasonably easy thing to do. Being educated on it will help everyone including Lumagen who had one of their own dealers involved. A mistake like that shouldn’t happen. Educate me and the dealer.

I said why I believed what I believe. Members here have said their say and their say makes me know I need an expert like Jim to educate me. I’ve made mistakes by not understanding properly so go find out why I was wrong, and help make sure another mistake doesn’t happen.

do you really not want me pursuing education from experts to be able to report more accurately on manufacturing claims?


----------



## FenceMan

J. Atkinson said:


> I don’t think you understood. I said why I believed the manufacturers (Sim2) claim on HDR performance. Why be educated on HDR by an expert like Jim if I think the information provided is unfounded?
> 
> I’ve even offered to try and recreate the whole reason behind this fiasco. If everyone is right and my claim is impossible it should be a reasonably easy thing to do. Being educated on it will help everyone including Lumagen who had one of their own dealers involved. A mistake like that shouldn’t happen. Educate me and the dealer.
> 
> I said why I believed what I believe. Members here have said their say and their say makes me know I need an expert like Jim to educate me. I’ve made mistakes by not understanding properly so go find out why I was wrong, and help make sure another mistake doesn’t happen.
> 
> do you really not want me pursuing education from experts to be able to report more accurately on manufacturing claims?


Forget the haters, you man'ed up and admitted you don't know it all, we can all learn from this.


----------



## tomasg

Bill DePalma said:


> Wanted to update you. I took a breath and checked a few things and now everything is working as expected. I think I was just the experiencing the opposite of bias confirmation, always expecting less. Thanks for your info.


And where was the problem?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

J. Atkinson said:


> I mean he has been playing with the algorithm for almost exactly 10 more years than the others. Sorry for buying that. It still makes sense to me.


I think this is part of the problem. There is no algorithm defined for tone mapping HDR. HDR is a defined EOTF curve. There is NOTHING to play with. It specifies what colour and luminance an encoded value should be displayed at. It is an ABSOLUTE encoding process. There is no debate and nothing to play around with. The issue is what should a display do if it is unable to reproduce that colour and luminance value as encoded. That is where tone mapping comes in. The fact someone designed a monitor that can display the content without any tone mapping or indeed set the standrds for what the EOTF should be does not give them any greater insight in to what to do when the display _cannot_ display the content than anyone else. In fact, the creators of the content are the most likely to know how they would wish the re-graded map to look i'd suggest.

Anyway, i wish you success in your onward education. You got to keep on moving on!.


----------



## J. Atkinson

FenceMan said:


> Forget the haters, you man'ed up and admitted you don't know it all, we can all learn from this.


Yeah, I don’t get it. They all want to jump on me for being wrong, but they don’t appear happy that I admitted error and want to improve.


----------



## Bill DePalma

tomasg said:


> And where was the problem?





Bill DePalma said:


> Yes, both iris settings are the same same. But thanks for panel info, but it would appear as more than 7%, although I understand what you are saying. I was just wondering if I needed to account for anything in the LRP in regards to the 2000. Maybe I’m missing some setup in the 2000 that would account for the difference. I’ll keep working
> Thanks


thanks for asking, as I have more setup questions with the RS2000. But using the recent discussions surrounding using full 4096 panel output I set up the LRP to take advantage of the 2000's 4096-panel output, and the difference in brightness was surprising. Now I am still working out tweaking shrink values and other settings to get aspect ratios to work with my 2.0 screen aspect, but I am close and the image is excellent. My new small problem is setting the JVC 2000 to display HDR/BT2020 automatically when it sees an HDR signal coming from the LRP. I previously had an RS600 and assumed my LRP and projector settings would remain consistent with the 2000. But obviosly I am doing something wrong in the JVC settings as it does not automatically switch into BT2020 as I expected. anything that I am obviously missing in terms of JVC setup to accept LRP tone mapping duties and switch to BT2020 from 709 automatically? thanks so much


----------



## dlinsley

Bill DePalma said:


> previously had an RS600 and assumed my LRP and projector settings would remain consistent with the 2000. But obviosly I am doing something wrong in the JVC settings as it does not automatically switch into BT2020 as I expected. anything that I am obviously missing in terms of JVC setup to accept LRP tone mapping duties and switch to BT2020 from 709 automatically? thanks so much


Please forgive the blurry photos, I didn't take care doing this and also took them without waiting for warm up (massive CA in the first 10 minutes, then perfectly aligned)

Presumably your LRP is set up with CMS0 for SDR and CMS1 for HDR, and so for CMS1 the HDR Flag is On and for CMS0 is Off:










On the RS2000 make sure the Content Type of the left most menu is set to Auto. It will show Auto (Current Mode):










On the second from left menu, go to the Auto Input and select which color profile you want to use for SDR and HDR10 (I'm using renamed User profiles):


----------



## cgott42

Can the Lumagen Radiance line convert a 2.35 cinemascope movie into 16:9 widescreen by chopping the sides - I know this is a violation of the director's intent - but sometimes I prefer it- and with a 65" TV the difference in image size of the main action is noticeable. So please no discussion on the "morality" just want to know if it does it? And any experience? thx


----------



## Bill DePalma

dlinsley said:


> Please forgive the blurry photos, I didn't take care doing this and also took them without waiting for warm up (massive CA in the first 10 minutes, then perfectly aligned)
> 
> Presumably your LRP is set up with CMS0 for SDR and CMS1 for HDR, and so for CMS1 the HDR Flag is On and for CMS0 is Off:
> 
> View attachment 3221155
> 
> 
> On the RS2000 make sure the Content Type of the left most menu is set to Auto. It will show Auto (Current Mode):
> 
> View attachment 3221156
> 
> 
> On the second from left menu, go to the Auto Input and select which color profile you want to use for SDR and HDR10 (I'm using renamed User profiles):
> View attachment 3221157


Thanks, you are so right, while I am not at the projector now I would bet that I have the HDR flag as off to prevent my 600 from going into gamma D. Thanks so much for doing this.


----------



## Bill DePalma

Bill DePalma said:


> Thanks, you are so right, while I am not at the projector now I would bet that I have the HDR flag as off to prevent my 600 from going into gamma D. Thanks so much for doing this.


While enabling the hdr flag did engage “HDR” in the JVC, I must still have something improperly set in either the projector or the LRP. The image is massively blown out. I have the JVC using the settings above, hdr 10 in most boxes, no tone mapping. I did look at your LRP settings in colorspace you have SDRP3 which I assume has to do with something unique in your setup. But in “HDR Mapping” if I change bt2020 to SDR it is at least not blown out, not HDR but not blown out. If you have any thoughts let me know. I am using all the same settings I used in my 600 with the exception of enabling the HDR flag. So, probably a setting in the JVC is off, but I have all options I know about. Thanks


----------



## Javs

J. Atkinson said:


> I don’t think you understood. I said why I believed the manufacturers (Sim2) claim on HDR performance. Why be educated on HDR by an expert like Jim if I think the information provided is unfounded?
> 
> I’ve even offered to try and recreate the whole reason behind this fiasco. If everyone is right and my claim is impossible it should be a reasonably easy thing to do. Being educated on it will help everyone including Lumagen who had one of their own dealers involved. A mistake like that shouldn’t happen. Educate me and the dealer.
> 
> I said why I believed what I believe. Members here have said their say and their say makes me know I need an expert like Jim to educate me. I’ve made mistakes by not understanding properly so go find out why I was wrong, and help make sure another mistake doesn’t happen.
> 
> do you really not want me pursuing education from experts to be able to report more accurately on manufacturing claims?


What would be even better is if you straight up asked Jim to show you why the current SONY does not have DTM either, it would take him less than 5 minutes to explain to you why, than maybe you will learn to be extremely hesitant to just believe hype from manufacturers. Dont believe anything until its backed up by real data, which you can more often than not find right here on the forum by folks who test it.

When you reject the consensus of those who have actually tested it (like I have read you do earlier - of which you seem to be coming around) then you will find people here wont like or appreciate it and it will rub the wrong way as you clearly saw happen.


----------



## jbrinegar

Bill DePalma said:


> While enabling the hdr flag did engage “HDR” in the JVC, I must still have something improperly set in either the projector or the LRP. The image is massively blown out. I have the JVC using the settings above, hdr 10 in most boxes, no tone mapping. I did look at your LRP settings in colorspace you have SDRP3 which I assume has to do with something unique in your setup. But in “HDR Mapping” if I change bt2020 to SDR it is at least not blown out, not HDR but not blown out. If you have any thoughts let me know. I am using all the same settings I used in my 600 with the exception of enabling the HDR flag. So, probably a setting in the JVC is off, but I have all options I know about. Thanks


When watching HDR, make sure the Lumagen is outputting SDR 2020, and make sure your JVC is in gamma 2.4.

edit: if you want the jvc to auto switch, you’ll need to set the Lumagen to sdh2020 (hdr flag on), and import a custom gamma 2.4 on your jvc (assumimg you have the latest jvc firmware that loses the 2.4 gamma on hdr)


----------



## Bill DePalma

jbrinegar said:


> When watching HDR, make sure the Lumagen is outputting SDR 2020, and make sure your JVC is in gamma 2.4.
> 
> edit: if you want the jvc to auto switch, you’ll need to set the Lumagen to sdh2020 (hdr flag on), and import a custom gamma 2.4 on your jvc (assumimg you have the latest jvc firmware that loses the 2.4 gamma on hdr)


Thanks, I will try these settings
Edit: working now. I had the JVC set up to output HDR
Thanks for everyone’s help


----------



## J. Atkinson

Javs said:


> What would be even better is if you straight up asked Jim to show you why the current SONY does not have DTM either, it would take him less than 5 minutes to explain to you why, than maybe you will learn to be extremely hesitant to just believe hype from manufacturers. Dont believe anything until its backed up by real data, which you can more often than not find right here on the forum by folks who test it.
> 
> When you reject the consensus of those who have actually tested it (like I have read you do earlier - of which you seem to be coming around) then you will find people here wont like or appreciate it and it will rub the wrong way as you clearly saw happen.


Why does everyone bring up Sony? I’ve never once made a statement about their tone mapping not once. Yet everyone wants me to know it’s not real dynamic tone mapping. I believe you guys and have not once said otherwise. So why ask Jim anything about Sony? 

Half of my beliefs seem to be made up by forum posters who are very good at assuming others thoughts. I’ve been misunderstood and I’ll take the blame.

I think the vast majority of this is unfounded and silly. I’ve never once stated I didn’t believe a test result. I was told I was wrong. Not about Sony (that’s another argument about the 380Z) but Sim2.

The only company I have written about HDR and tone mapping is Sim2. They told me a story and I’ve repeated it and why it made sense to me.

I’ve not been impressed with Sony tone mappingI’ve always found JVC to be superior in that regard. However hook up a Lumagen or MadVR up to a Sony and they’ll impress.

I said the 380 did better HDR than the Sim2 because it’s 4000 lumens brighter and recreates bright lights better. 

I keep being told I’m wrong and test results prove it. So I want to understand why I was wrong so I don’t make the same mistake.

Some things like what we call an article will not be changed because some member thinks recommended should be used over “best”. Technically, yes they’re right. However my JOB is to write things people will read not things that won’t upset a small portion of the members. So some think I’m close minded because I have to stick to what works better under SEO. That’s the only thing I’m close minded to.

When it comes to knowledge on AV I’m always trying to learn more and I don’t know close to everything.


----------



## DigitalAV

J. Atkinson said:


> Why does everyone bring up Sony? I’ve never once made a statement about their tone mapping not once. Yet everyone wants me to know it’s not real dynamic tone mapping. I believe you guys and have not once said otherwise. So why ask Jim anything about Sony?
> 
> Half of my beliefs seem to be made up by forum posters who are very good at assuming others thoughts. I’ve been misunderstood and I’ll take the blame.
> 
> I think the vast majority of this is unfounded and silly. I’ve never once stated I didn’t believe a test result. I was told I was wrong. Not about Sony (that’s another argument about the 380Z) but Sim2.
> 
> The only company I have written about HDR and tone mapping is Sim2. They told me a story and I’ve repeated it and why it made sense to me.
> 
> I’ve not been impressed with Sony tone mappingI’ve always found JVC to be superior in that regard. However hook up a Lumagen or MadVR up to a Sony and they’ll impress.
> 
> I said the 380 did better HDR than the Sim2 because it’s 4000 lumens brighter and recreates bright lights better.
> 
> I keep being told I’m wrong and test results prove it. So I want to understand why I was wrong so I don’t make the same mistake.
> 
> Some things like what we call an article will not be changed because some member thinks recommended should be used over “best”. Technically, yes they’re right. However my JOB is to write things people will read not things that won’t upset a small portion of the members. So some think I’m close minded because I have to stick to what works better under SEO. That’s the only thing I’m close minded to.
> 
> When it comes to knowledge on AV I’m always trying to learn more and I don’t know close to everything.


Is there another thread you can move this to


----------



## Karl Maga

DigitalAV said:


> Is there another thread you can move this to





J. Atkinson said:


> Why does everyone bring up Sony? I’ve never once made a statement about their tone mapping not once. Yet everyone wants me to know it’s not real dynamic tone mapping. I believe you guys and have not once said otherwise. So why ask Jim anything about Sony?
> 
> Half of my beliefs seem to be made up by forum posters who are very good at assuming others thoughts. I’ve been misunderstood and I’ll take the blame.
> 
> I think the vast majority of this is unfounded and silly. I’ve never once stated I didn’t believe a test result. I was told I was wrong. Not about Sony (that’s another argument about the 380Z) but Sim2.
> 
> The only company I have written about HDR and tone mapping is Sim2. They told me a story and I’ve repeated it and why it made sense to me.
> 
> I’ve not been impressed with Sony tone mappingI’ve always found JVC to be superior in that regard. However hook up a Lumagen or MadVR up to a Sony and they’ll impress.
> 
> I said the 380 did better HDR than the Sim2 because it’s 4000 lumens brighter and recreates bright lights better.
> 
> I keep being told I’m wrong and test results prove it. So I want to understand why I was wrong so I don’t make the same mistake.
> 
> Some things like what we call an article will not be changed because some member thinks recommended should be used over “best”. Technically, yes they’re right. However my JOB is to write things people will read not things that won’t upset a small portion of the members. So some think I’m close minded because I have to stick to what works better under SEO. That’s the only thing I’m close minded to.
> 
> When it comes to knowledge on AV I’m always trying to learn more and I don’t know close to everything.


It does seem that it has become circular and redundant, and I don’t see a purpose in continuing it.


----------



## J. Atkinson

DigitalAV said:


> Is there another thread you can move this to


Sadly someone moved the argument here and people have somehow made me a pro Sony tone mapping person.

I’ve always believed to get the most out of a Sony projector you HAVE to hook it up to a Lumagen, but nobody asked me.

that brings it back to on topic. Maybe everyone can spin this unfortunate turn of events into something useful.

Everyone with a Sony who has Lumagen, jump in and describe what things your Lumagen has done to improve the PQ and which things can be done to get the best performance.

There should be a thread for something like that even. Certain projector types and their Video processors. Guys can give tweak advice that’s specific.


----------



## DigitalAV

J. Atkinson said:


> Sadly someone moved the argument here and people have somehow made me a pro Sony tone mapping person.
> 
> I’ve always believed to get the most out of a Sony projector you HAVE to hook it up to a Lumagen, but nobody asked me.
> 
> that brings it back to on topic. Maybe everyone can spin this unfortunate turn of events into something useful.
> 
> Everyone with a Sony who has Lumagen, jump in and describe what things your Lumagen has done to improve the PQ and which things can be done to get the best performance.
> 
> There should be a thread for something like that even. Certain projector types and their Video processors. Guys can give tweak advice that’s specific.


Do you have a Sony projector?


----------



## darksets

DigitalAV said:


> Lol ok


Lol ok


----------



## tomasg

Bill DePalma said:


> Now I am still working out tweaking shrink values and other settings to get aspect ratios to work with my 2.0 screen aspect, but I am close and the image is excellent.


I am going to have new screen with similar aspect ratio so I probably ask for your help with this lately


----------



## J. Atkinson

DigitalAV said:


> Do you have a Sony projector?


No.


----------



## bobof

J. Atkinson said:


> Some things like what we call an article will not be changed because some member thinks recommended should be used over “best”. Technically, yes they’re right. *However my JOB is to write things people will read not things that won’t upset a small portion of the members. So some think I’m close minded because I have to stick to what works better under SEO*. That’s the only thing I’m close minded to.


And if you wanted a more damning indictment over the value of such "Best" awards, I don't think you could find one. Welcome to the click-driven world.


----------



## J. Atkinson

bobof said:


> And if you wanted a more damning indictment over the value of such "Best" awards, I don't think you could find one. Welcome to the click-driven world.


Seriously? This is a business. If you enjoy what members offer we need to keep the lights on. That means that people get what they want to read. They want Best of lists, they get them.


----------



## bobof

J. Atkinson said:


> Seriously? This is a business. If you enjoy what members offer we need to keep the lights on. That means that people get what they want to read. They want Best of lists, they get them.


I guess I should have expanded to "value to a typical forum dweller".

From my own point of view I choose to pay for a membership here and at the other similarly named place across the pond (and a few others for good measure). Their "Best" lists get an equal amount of ire and contempt  I'm aware of examples elsewhere of these kind of awards being dished out when other products in the market haven't even been looked at, being limited to only product released within the year to get some products awards that probably shouldn't, etc. 

At least you're being straightforward about it. I think the anger you get from prolific posters on seeing some of the editorial quoted back in posts (who I imagine for the most part have little crossover with your search click editorial readership - I know I don't read any of it unless it comes up in discussion - sorry!) can be explained thus. The forum brand, which is mostly built off the back of their enthusiast posts, and something they're quite proud of having contributed to building, is somehow diluted or tainted when they see editorial content that seems sensationalist / wide of the mark / one sided. I think other tech sites that are not really forums get a bit more of a pass as they're thinly veiled outlets; it's a particularly hard sell here, where the S was always supposed to be Science, so such things are almost at 180 degrees to the mindset of many posters engaging here. It's a fine line to walk between commercialization and alienation... 

Thanks for at lease engaging with the discussion.


----------



## jqmn

J. Atkinson said:


> Everyone with a Sony who has Lumagen, jump in and describe what things your Lumagen has done to improve the PQ and which things can be done to get the best performance.


Ah, testimonials-- I bought the Lumagen RP, contrary to what people say most do, at the time solely to get HDR displayed using DTM. I had tried static curves and quickly realized they just wouldn't work the way DTM would if implemented correctly. I had no interest in a PC (pre-Envy) based solution. I know I could not use my 885ES and get the same ease and image results without the LRP's DTM for HDR. Sony has completely shot itself in the foot by waiting to introduce a true DTM solution but all the better for Lumagen (and, I guess, yet another reason to look at JVC). The LUT capability was my next product need and the LRP checks the box there. As a result of my purchase I stumbled into the tireless support of @jrp and his drive to deliver "constant better" by listening to his customers, working with them and implementing non-stop ideas that come from his and Patrick's most excellent minds as well as the minds of others (e.g., can you say @Kris Deering?). Gotta say I am very, very happy Lumagen and JP exist in this sector of the A/V world for my current projector needs and likely my next one. I only wish his DNA could be transferred to almost every other business I interact with.


----------



## J. Atkinson

bobof said:


> I guess I should have expanded to "value to a typical forum dweller".
> 
> From my own point of view I choose to pay for a membership here and at the other similarly named place across the pond (and a few others for good measure). Their "Best" lists get an equal amount of ire and contempt  I'm aware of examples elsewhere of these kind of awards being dished out when other products in the market haven't even been looked at, being limited to only product released within the year to get some products awards that probably shouldn't, etc.
> 
> At least you're being straightforward about it. I think the anger you get from prolific posters on seeing some of the editorial quoted back in posts (who I imagine for the most part have little crossover with your search click editorial readership - I know I don't read any of it unless it comes up in discussion - sorry!) can be explained thus. The forum brand, which is mostly built off the back of their enthusiast posts, and something they're quite proud of having contributed to building, is somehow diluted or tainted when they see editorial content that seems sensationalist / wide of the mark / one sided. I think other tech sites that are not really forums get a bit more of a pass as they're thinly veiled outlets; it's a particularly hard sell here, where the S was always supposed to be Science, so such things are almost at 180 degrees to the mindset of many posters engaging here. It's a fine line to walk between commercialization and alienation...
> 
> Thanks for at lease engaging with the discussion.


I hope over time the Forum realizes I’m on your side. There are little necessities of evil so to speak but we can take these lists and best of things and accept them for what they are meant for:

conversation. Not arguments. Conversation. I’d love the Best Of to have replies talking about why they would have chosen another product without bashing. Some guys have done great jobs with that attitude.

I want to introduce the masses to more lines.

I know there is tons of info on a product like the Lumagen here on the Forum to give them a rabbit hole to start down. The list exist to make the masses go “what’s a MadVR or Lumagen?” And let them look it up.


----------



## J. Atkinson

jqmn said:


> Ah, testimonials-- I bought the Lumagen RP, contrary to what people say most do, at the time solely to get HDR displayed using DTM. I had tried static curves and quickly realized they just wouldn't work the way DTM would if implemented correctly. I had no interest in a PC (pre-Envy) based solution. I know I could not use my 885ES and get the same ease and image results without the LRP's DTM for HDR. Sony has completely shot itself in the foot by waiting to introduce a true DTM solution but all the better for Lumagen (and, I guess, yet another reason to look at JVC). The LUT capability was my next product need and the LRP checks the box there. As a result of my purchase I stumbled into the tireless support of @jrp and his drive to deliver "constant better" by listening to his customers, working with them and implementing non-stop ideas that come from his and Patrick's most excellent minds as well as the minds of others (e.g., can you say @Kris Deering?). Gotta say I am very, very happy Lumagen and JP exist in this sector of the A/V world for my current projector needs and likely my next one. I only wish his DNA could be transferred to almost every other business I interact with.


Awesome! That’s exactly the type of response that swings this back on topic. I’m a huge 885ES/LRP combo fan.


----------



## fatherom

J. Atkinson said:


> I hope over time the Forum realizes I’m on your side. There are little necessities of evil so to speak but we can take these lists and best of things and accept them for what they are meant for:
> 
> conversation. Not arguments. Conversation. I’d love the Best Of to have replies talking about why they would have chosen another product without bashing. Some guys have done great jobs with that attitude.


Hmmm...see here's the problem as I see it.

Several months ago there was a "best ethernet cables" article on avsforum. It was written by someone who was clearly just hocking wares, with no regard to science, and some of the cables were pure snake oil. People trashed the article, rightfully so.

A "best of" list, especially one on avsforum, implies every product was thoroughly researched, and alternatives considered, and that the list is fairly definitive (as can be). If that isn't happening, then the article should be called "here's my opinion on some cool products that I've seen out there, let's start a conversation".


----------



## Clark Burk

Here's another take. I pay extra to be a premium member on this forum not only to support AVS but also to not be inundated with all the ads that populate the right side of the page. I'm really not interested in representatives of AVS or other commercial entities posting in the owners threads or other specific titled threads what amounts to ads, editorial content or SEO related posts not related to the topic. I have no problem with such content appearing in dealer related threads or topics that are identified as such.


----------



## J. Atkinson

fatherom said:


> Hmmm...see here's the problem as I see it.
> 
> Several months ago there was a "best ethernet cables" article on avsforum. It was written by someone who was clearly just hocking wares, with no regard to science, and some of the cables were pure snake oil. People trashed the article, rightfully so.
> 
> A "best of" list, especially one on avsforum, implies every product was thoroughly researched, and alternatives considered, and that the list is fairly definitive (as can be). If that isn't happening, then the article should be called "here's my opinion on some cool products that I've seen out there, let's start a conversation".


Before I was on here as Editor. 

The Best Of, I mentioned what gear didn’t qualify (because we didn’t review it or have hands on like the NZ lineup which are also out of stock until Q2).

Also when half the publications out there do their own version of Best Of the Year products start renaming their articles I’ll consider it. Members getting so upset over semantics is a waste of energy.

it’s a business. People don’t search for “here is my opinion of cool products”.

If I followed the advice of half the members the site would go broke and be shut down.


----------



## J. Atkinson

Clark Burk said:


> Here's another take. I pay extra to be a premium member on this forum not only to support AVS but also to not be inundated with all the ads that populate the right side of the page. I'm really not interested in representatives of AVS or other commercial entities posting in the owners threads or other specific titled threads what amounts to ads, editorial content or SEO related posts not related to the topic. I have no problem with such content appearing in dealer related threads or topics that are identified as such.


So you have a problem with the guys running the site participating in threads?!

Also how is anyone posting any search engine optimization in an owners thread?

None of our authors jump into threads to spread anything besides their interests. Editorial content?

I participate in threads that interest me. I don’t ask members to all of a sudden bring up off topic stuff. They do it on their own. You just did. Everyone asked talk Lumagen and you added another post about not Lumagen.

Im in here because the product greatly interests me as I am choosing a video processor and where else to find information out than a thread on it?


----------



## Karl Maga

By the way, I love what my Radiance Pro did with 1080i NFL content yesterday. The combination of a big screen (140"), a great projector (NX7) and a peerless upscaler (Radiance Pro) made it look sooo good. 👍

EDITED: corrected signal spec to 1080i, whereas 1080p was initially mentioned.


----------



## J. Atkinson

Karl Maga said:


> By the way, I love what my Radiance Pro did with 1080p NFL content yesterday. The combination of a big screen (140"), a great projector (NX7) and a peerless upscaler (Radiance Pro) made it look sooo good. 👍


Do you find it helps with motion greatly in regards to JVC normal motion performance?


----------



## Clark Burk

J. Atkinson said:


> So you have a problem with the guys running the site participating in threads?!
> 
> Also how is anyone posting any search engine optimization in an owners thread?
> 
> None of our authors jump into threads to spread anything besides their interests. Editorial content?
> 
> I participate in threads that interest me. I don’t ask members to all of a sudden bring up off topic stuff. They do it on their own. You just did. Everyone asked talk Lumagen and you added another post about not Lumagen.
> 
> Im in here because the product greatly interests me as I am choosing a video processor and where else to find information out than a thread on it?


I’m all for people trying to learn more about their interest. I try to help when I can although there are members in this thread that are far more qualified to provide that info. I likely misunderstood your interest with some of your recent posts. 
You are correct, I drifted off topic and will cease this discussion.


----------



## Clark Burk

Karl Maga said:


> By the way, I love what my Radiance Pro did with 1080p NFL content yesterday. The combination of a big screen (140"), a great projector (NX7) and a peerless upscaler (Radiance Pro) made it look sooo good. 👍


That’s interesting. I will give that a try but my cable box is 1080i or 720p for most channels and I really didn’t know if the Lumagen would do it’s magic with that or not.


----------



## fatherom

J. Atkinson said:


> Also when half the publications out there do their own version of Best Of the Year products start renaming their articles I’ll consider it. Members getting so upset over semantics is a waste of energy.
> 
> it’s a business.


I think that's a bit of a weak rationale. You yourself said the "best of" list should be a conversation, not necessarily definitive (and I think they should be more definitive). To me, that flies in the face of what a "best of" list should be. I thought AVSForum was supposed to rise above sites like rtings, for example.


----------



## Karl Maga

J. Atkinson said:


> Do you find it helps with motion greatly in regards to JVC normal motion performance?


You ask a good question, and my answer illustrates one of the main reasons I don't post more: I don't pay close attention beyond "hey, I like how that looks!". I do very cursory comparisons if I do them at all.

However, I can add this - I do not use any motion or color processing in my JVC NX7. Although I could, I do not use a 3D LUT in my Radiance Pro. I have deferred all of these particulars to @Kris Deering because I did so in the beginning when he first calibrated the NX7/Radiance Pro combination, and I was so pleased with the results that I felt no compulsion to do anything other than use it and enjoy it.

For very little extra expense, I was able to have him do nearly all of my initial setup because I purchased my Radiance Pro from him (along with a Panamorph DCR lens) and had my NX7 shipped to him from the distributor.

I am one of those AVS Forums participants that leaves the minutia to those with an appetite for it, but I leverage the shared expertise to choose what I purchase and from whom I purchase it. I've had a long, prosperous life and career because I was smart enough to find the real smart people and accept their input to arrive at solutions that meet deftly qualified objectives.

Lumagen may not have the most vociferous of supporters, but it is the best video processor.


----------



## Karl Maga

Clark Burk said:


> That’s interesting. I will give that a try but my cable box is 1080i or 720p for most channels and I really didn’t know if the Lumagen would do it’s magic with that or not.


Ah, you have exposed an error in my OP (now corrected), it is 1080i NFL material from my cable box to which I was referring. I do think that NFL broadcasts look a little better streamed (ATV4K), but I like the DVR functionality for sports. The Radiance Pro puts out a splendid signal from either source.


----------



## J. Atkinson

Karl Maga said:


> You ask a good question, and my answer exposes one of the main reasons I don't post more: I don't pay close attention beyond "hey, I like how that looks!". I do very cursory comparisons if I do them at all.
> 
> However, I can add this - I do not use any motion or color processing in my JVC NX7. Although I could, I do not use a 3D LUT in my Radiance Pro. I have deferred all of these particulars to @Kris Deering because I did so in the beginning when he first calibrated the NX7/Radiance Pro combination, and I was so pleased with the results that I felt no compulsion to do anything other than use it and enjoy it.
> 
> For very little extra expense, I was able to have him do nearly all of my initial setup because I purchased my Radiance Pro from him (along with a Panamorph DCR lens) and had my NX7 shipped to him from the distributor.
> 
> I am one of those AVS Forums participants that leaves the minutia to those with an appetite for it, but I leverage the shared expertise to choose what I purchase and from whom I purchase it. I've had a long, prosperous life and career because I was smart enough to find the real smart people and accept their input to arrive at solutions that meet deftly qualified objectives.
> 
> Lumagen may not have the most vociferous of supporters, but it is the best video processor.


Ijust Meant in real world viewing. So it passes your eyeball test is all I really wanted to know.

sounds like you’re very happy with it!


----------



## GeorgeHolland

aguy said:


> Then I sat down to watch a movie last night. Divergent. And was actually disappointed. The colours looked a bit washed out and black levels high so they were actually more grey. Additionally the black bars above and below there image ( burned in from the blu ray) were also greyish and funnily enough it failed to trigger auto aspect resolution. I’m suspecting that it is just a poorly mastered HDR movie. The source was rip of the uhd blu ray I made with makemkv. Played with Kodi from a corerlec box that correctly passes the HDR metadata. I’ve read that divergent was some of those early lions gate releases that had 4000 for max light and 0 set for max CLL. Also fact it was an early HDR release makes me think it may just be poor mastering.
> 
> Interested in opinions on that movie and the HDR DTM side of things.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know this post is a year old but used the search feature to see if triggering auto aspect ratio was an issue with Divergent 4K HDR Blu-Ray. I have had this disc for a year but have never watched it. I was concerned when it didn't switch and was displayed with bars on top and sides. Selecting 2.35:1 on the remote switched AR and filled my scope screen so no issue. I was just glad to find my experience was not unique assuming a burned copy is displayed the same as a physical disc. I thought the image itself looked very good.


----------



## Erod

Karl Maga said:


> Ah, you have exposed an error in my OP (now corrected), it is 1080i NFL material from my cable box to which I was referring. I do think that NFL broadcasts look a little better streamed (ATV4K), but I like the DVR functionality for sports. The Radiance Pro puts out a splendid signal from either source.


I wish broadcast sports would hurry and standardize as 4K HLG. They're taking their sweet time.


----------



## sjschaff

J. Atkinson said:


> Ijust Meant in real world viewing. So it passes your eyeball test is all I really wanted to know.
> 
> sounds like you’re very happy with it!


I think that with this forum thread is focused on the LRP, and that most posters are using the LRP with projectors, ergo the tendency is to stay in that lane, rather than even think about how the LRP would perform its function with any other "display", including the mass market LED, OLED, etc, that has an image size less than 100" diag. 

So, your comments stray well outside this particular communities abiding interest in the LRP and what it can do for their viewing pleasure. And it only strays outside those predominant lines a bit, into areas like audio, when it comes to how the LRP behaves as part of an end-to-end audio/video process/experience. 

As for the "best of" issue raised, it's always been my experience that it's but an indicator of popularity, rather than any serious validation. In both my audio system and A/V system I find many instances where putting in a device that symbiotically works well in one, fails to enhance (and often hurts) the resulting experience of sound quality. It may be due to anything in the chain or the very room itself.


----------



## audioguy

sjschaff said:


> As for the "best of" issue raised, it's always been my experience that it's but an indicator of popularity, rather than any serious validation. In both my audio system and A/V system I find many instances where putting in a device that symbiotically works well in one, fails to enhance (and often hurts) the resulting experience of sound quality. It may be due to anything in the chain or the very room itself.


I've been in and around the audio business for close to 50 years. I can only think of a very few products that entire time where the word BEST *MIGHT* apply. VERY few. And that is why I get myself so wound up when I see BEST lists, and the one published most recently on AVS isn't even close to BEST with *maybe* an exception. Even though there was a universal vote on the Trinnov, there are numbers of folks who *prefer* either the Storm Audio piece or the Lyngdorf piece. BEST excludes personal preference, which is always a key factor in any purchase decision. That applies to audio and video products --- and cars, and wine, and vacuum cleaners, and .......just about everything else.

While I have no high regard for either Stereophile or The Absolute Sound, they both provide Recommended Components Lists, NOT Best Lists. John Atkinson has stated why he has chosen to use the word Best. I, and clearly others, get to agree to disagree with him.


----------



## audioguy

GeorgeHolland said:


> I know this post is a year old but used the search feature to see if triggering auto aspect ratio was an issue with Divergent 4K HDR Blu-Ray. I have had this disc for a year but have never watched it. I was concerned when it didn't switch and was displayed with bars on top and sides. Selecting 2.35:1 on the remote switched AR and filled my scope screen so no issue. I was just glad to find my experience was not unique assuming a burned copy is displayed the same as a physical disc. I thought the image itself looked very good.


I just watched all three of the Divergent films in 4K/HDR (via Kaleidescape) and thought they looked great.


----------



## Craig Peer

Clark Burk said:


> That’s interesting. I will give that a try but my cable box is 1080i or 720p for most channels and I really didn’t know if the Lumagen would do it’s magic with that or not.


The Lumagen helps the picture on my cable box. Of course you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, so don't expect miracles - but it does look better.


----------



## aguy

GeorgeHolland said:


> I know this post is a year old but used the search feature to see if triggering auto aspect ratio was an issue with Divergent 4K HDR Blu-Ray. I have had this disc for a year but have never watched it. I was concerned when it didn't switch and was displayed with bars on top and sides. Selecting 2.35:1 on the remote switched AR and filled my scope screen so no issue. I was just glad to find my experience was not unique assuming a burned copy is displayed the same as a physical disc. I thought the image itself looked very good.


I have my settings a bit more dialled in now so the images are looking better. I haven’t tried divergent again but I know Jim has improved auto detection for some movies since then. 

Having said that I have stopped using auto detection for watching with Kodi. I now have all the aspect ratios saved as metadata on Kodi. My automation system reads this metadata when pressing play which then triggers both my lumagen and my masking panels to the correct aspect ratio. Happens immediately upon viewing and so it is seamless. Exactly like being at the commercial cinema. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## J. Atkinson

audioguy said:


> I've been in and around the audio business for close to 50 years. I can only think of a very few products that entire time where the word BEST *MIGHT* apply. VERY few. And that is why I get myself so wound up when I see BEST lists, and the one published most recently on AVS isn't even close to BEST with *maybe* an exception. Even though there was a universal vote on the Trinnov, there are numbers of folks who *prefer* either the Storm Audio piece or the Lyngdorf piece. BEST excludes personal preference, which is always a key factor in any purchase decision. That applies to audio and video products --- and cars, and wine, and vacuum cleaners, and .......just about everything else.
> 
> While I have no high regard for either Stereophile or The Absolute Sound, they both provide Recommended Components Lists, NOT Best Lists. John Atkinson has stated why he has chosen to use the word Best. I, and clearly others, get to agree to disagree with him.


The Golden Ear awards go to the “best gear in its class”

As for people who claim to prefer Storm Audio or Lyngdorf I shrug. To me they’re entirely different products in different classes. Trinnov truly has no competition imho. No one even offers a similar product.

Every other AV processor relies on audio chipsets. No room correction is close to the Optimizer. No one else has speaker remapping.

When Harman and their world class audio labs decide they can’t make an equal to Trinnov and thus rebadge it to provide their clients the best it really makes you wonder why anyone thinks Storm and their audio chips can compete.

There are very few things where I feel confident saying it’s the best in our industry.

Trinnov Altitude32 is one of the very few that can be said of. Kaleidescape is another. 

You can continue to get blue in the face on the article name but:

1. It’s extremely popular.

2. It’s made us income to justify bringing Scott Wilkinson back.

So for everything that might bug you, realize it’s part of a much bigger picture to provide the overall audience a better experience here.

In a year after our visions have been realized you’ll hopefully be happy with the direction of the site.


----------



## fanfan00000043

Guys I wanna ask does Luamgen support auto standby function? 
for example without input signal for a while ,Lumagen auto switch to standby mode, once input signal from any port arrived, lumagen auto power on.
I think with that function, I could put my lumagen remote controller into box, and life is getting easier.


----------



## bobof

fanfan00000043 said:


> Guys I wanna ask does Luamgen support auto standby function?
> for example without input signal for a while ,Lumagen auto switch to standby mode, once input signal from any port arrived, lumagen auto power on.
> I think with that function, I could put my lumagen remote controller into box, and life is getting easier.


Not as far as I'm aware. Personally I use a Logitech Harmony to co-ordinate Radiance power up / down with all my activities. I think many (most?) using something like a Radiance Pro probably have some kind of control system in place - be that a simple Harmony remote, or something more elaborate.


----------



## aguy

I understand how the auto standby would be useful. 


But the auto on how would that be implemented given multiple inputs. Easy if only one input is turned on but how would you set it up if multiple inputs are powered on?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandel

cgott42 said:


> Can the Lumagen Radiance line convert a 2.35 cinemascope movie into 16:9 widescreen by chopping the sides - I know this is a violation of the director's intent - but sometimes I prefer it- and with a 65" TV the difference in image size of the main action is noticeable. So please no discussion on the "morality" just want to know if it does it? And any experience? thx


You can simply use the zoom function if you want to get rid of the black bars.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Hi Guys,

I just setup the new Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348 for a friend. He has the Sony 760 projector with a panamorph lens.

20 mins had most of the settings dialled in, including the optical and digital black.

He could see an instant improvement to the image.

Just waiting for a 3D lut calibration, but so far an excellent improvement.


----------



## aguy

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I just setup the new Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348 for a friend. He has the Sony 760 projector with a panamorph lens.
> 
> 20 mins had most of the settings dialled in, including the optical and digital black.
> 
> He could see an instant improvement to the image.
> 
> Just waiting for a 3D lut calibration, but so far an excellent improvement.


Did you use the 4096 wide output from the lumagen ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

aguy said:


> Did you use the 4096 wide output from the lumagen ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep sure did.


----------



## cgott42

Sandel said:


> You can simply use the zoom function if you want to get rid of the black bars.


Note - This is on a TV - not a projector. So I don't think zooming the display (TV) would work. 
Perhaps I shoudl put this as a separate thread


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

cgott42 said:


> Note - This is on a TV - not a projector. So I don't think zooming the display (TV) would work.
> Perhaps I shoudl put this as a separate thread


My TV's have an aspect button. That would "zoom" in on 2.35 content.

Also if you have auto aspect ratio activated on the Lumagen, pressing the 16:9 button on Lumagen remote should "zoom" the 2:35 content.


----------



## cgott42

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> My TV's have an aspect button. That would "zoom" in on 2.35 content.
> 
> Also if you have auto aspect ratio activated on the Lumagen, pressing the 16:9 button on Lumagen remote should "zoom" the 2:35 content.


Thanks but It seems that the Sony - Android TV - doesn't support it for normal usage:


https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00166842


_If you stream an app and then press the WIDE button, the TV displays Feature not available - This is normal operation._

_Wide mode settings aren't available during a 4K playback from an external device such as a Blu-ray Disc™ player, game console, etc._
_If you connect an external device or video source to an A/V receiver that has 4K Pass-Through feature._


----------



## audioguy

J. Atkinson said:


> As for people who claim to prefer Storm Audio or Lyngdorf I shrug. To me they’re entirely different products in different classes. Trinnov truly has no competition imho. No one even offers a similar product.
> 
> Every other AV processor relies on audio chipsets. No room correction is close to the Optimizer. No one else has speaker remapping.
> 
> When Harman and their world class audio labs decide they can’t make an equal to Trinnov and thus rebadge it to provide their clients the best it really makes you wonder why anyone thinks Storm and their audio chips can compete.
> 
> There are very few things where I feel confident saying it’s the best in our industry.
> 
> Trinnov Altitude32 is one of the very few that can be said of.


I own the Altitude32 and agree with you and for all of the reasons you have stated and more. That, however, does not take away from my assertion that not EVERYONE agrees with us and some prefer other products. PREFERENCE plays a key role in all product selection, like it or not. Many qualities/features/capabilities set the Trinnov far, far apart from the competition. That kind of distinction applies to VERY few products. We have both said it multiple times: we have agreed to disagree.


----------



## Bill DePalma

jbrinegar said:


> When watching HDR, make sure the Lumagen is outputting SDR 2020, and make sure your JVC is in gamma 2.4.
> 
> edit: if you want the jvc to auto switch, you’ll need to set the Lumagen to sdh2020 (hdr flag on), and import a custom gamma 2.4 on your jvc (assumimg you have the latest jvc firmware that loses the 2.4 gamma on hdr)


Update, While I can get proper HDR on the JVC, I still cannot get it to auto switch. The HDR flag is set on in the Lumagen and it is outputting SDR2020 to the JVC but I must manually engage the HDR picture mode. I am sure I am just missing a setting in the JVC. I have the JVC to auto switch when it sees “HDR” to the user mode that is setup for SDR with BT2020 color. Is this correct? Or is the automation feature moot when the Lumagen sends a SDR container? Sorry if this is too off topic for this thread. And I appreciate the tip about importing the 2.4 gamma Thanks so much


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Bill DePalma said:


> Update, While I can get proper HDR on the JVC, I still cannot get it to auto switch. The HDR flag is set on in the Lumagen and it is outputting SDR2020 to the JVC but I must manually engage the HDR picture mode. I am sure I am just missing a setting in the JVC. I have the JVC to auto switch when it sees “HDR” to the user mode that is setup for SDR with BT2020 color. Is this correct? Or is the automation feature moot when the Lumagen sends a SDR container? Sorry if this is too off topic for this thread. And I appreciate the tip about importing the 2.4 gamma Thanks so much


What model JVC projector is it? From memory I think you need to set lumagen to SDH2020? Then it will obviously only send the HDR flag when you start watching HDR content.


----------



## jbrinegar

Bill DePalma said:


> Update, While I can get proper HDR on the JVC, I still cannot get it to auto switch. The HDR flag is set on in the Lumagen and it is outputting SDR2020 to the JVC but I must manually engage the HDR picture mode. I am sure I am just missing a setting in the JVC. I have the JVC to auto switch when it sees “HDR” to the user mode that is setup for SDR with BT2020 color. Is this correct? Or is the automation feature moot when the Lumagen sends a SDR container? Sorry if this is too off topic for this thread. And I appreciate the tip about importing the 2.4 gamma Thanks so much


Can you verify your Lumagen is outputting SDH2020 (not sdr2020)?
Sdh2020=hdr flag on


----------



## dlinsley

Bill DePalma said:


> Update, While I can get proper HDR on the JVC, I still cannot get it to auto switch. The HDR flag is set on in the Lumagen and it is outputting SDR2020 to the JVC but I must manually engage the HDR picture mode. I am sure I am just missing a setting in the JVC. I have the JVC to auto switch when it sees “HDR” to the user mode that is setup for SDR with BT2020 color. Is this correct? Or is the automation feature moot when the Lumagen sends a SDR container? Sorry if this is too off topic for this thread. And I appreciate the tip about importing the 2.4 gamma Thanks so much


Did you set the JVC per the two JVC menus I showed in my previous post?


----------



## YanivZX6R

delete


----------



## Bill DePalma

Aaron Toulmin said:


> What model JVC projector is it? From memory I think you need to set lumagen to SDH2020? Then it will obviously only send the HDR flag when you start watching HDR content.


It is a JVC 2000 the Lumagen is reporting SDH2020
My problem I think is with the settings I have in the JVC


----------



## Bill DePalma

jbrinegar said:


> Can you verify your Lumagen is outputting SDH2020 (not sdr2020)?
> Sdh2020=hdr flag on
> 
> View attachment 3222265


Yes, the Lumagen is reporting SDH2020


----------



## Bill DePalma

dlinsley said:


> Did you set the JVC per the two JVC menus I showed in my previous post?


I am sorry, I was confused by the renaming in your setup. I assume those were “user” settings
My main confusion is how do I set up the JVC? Is content type set to “auto”, “HDR” or SDR?
Do I set the JVC to only SDR settings or something else. This is embarrassing , a real senior moment 
I could send some screen shots of the mess I am creating
Thanks for everyone’s help


----------



## jbrinegar

Bill DePalma said:


> Yes, the Lumagen is reporting SDH2020



Cool. Then all you need to do is make sure your JVC is set to autoswitch to HDR with the imported gamma 2.4. Can you take a picture of what you have set on your JVC autoselect for HDR material?


----------



## Bill DePalma

jbrinegar said:


> Cool. Then all you need to do is make sure your JVC is set to autoswitch to HDR with the imported gamma 2.4. Can you take a picture of what you have set on your JVC autoselect for HDR material?


here are my settings:


----------



## fanfan00000043

thx


bobof said:


> Not as far as I'm aware. Personally I use a Logitech Harmony to co-ordinate Radiance power up / down with all my activities. I think many (most?) using something like a Radiance Pro probably have some kind of control system in place - be that a simple Harmony remote, or something more elaborate.


 thx dude, I will check what is logitec harmony and how to use it


----------



## docrog

Bill DePalma said:


> here are my settings:
> View attachment 3222367
> View attachment 3222368
> View attachment 3222369
> 
> 
> 
> Bill DePalma said:
> 
> 
> 
> here are my settings:
> View attachment 3222367
> View attachment 3222368
> View attachment 3222369
> 
> View attachment 3222363
> View attachment 3222364
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3222363
> View attachment 3222364
Click to expand...

Why is your color profile set to BT709 rather than HDR10?


----------



## Bill DePalma

docrog said:


> Why is your color profile set to BT709 rather than HDR10?


My assumptions were that since the Lumagen is sending an SDR2020 signal that for the projector SDR to display properly it needs to be in an SDR setting. I know I am wrong but which boxes get ticked for HDR10 and which get another treatment to account for the Lumagen doing the DTM? Thanks


----------



## patcub

Bill DePalma said:


> here are my settings:
> View attachment 3222367
> View attachment 3222368
> View attachment 3222369
> 
> View attachment 3222363
> View attachment 3222364


I have the same projector and a Radiance Pro 4242. I just figured this out with the help of Chris Deutsch at JVC, and some previous posts from Kris Deering. For both your “Natural” SDR picture mode and your User 4 HDR10 picture mode you should change the color profile to either BT.2020 normal or wide, depending if you want to use the wide color filter or not, which slightly reduces brightness. The Lumagen is outputting everything as BT.2020 since you have the color space auto convert on. Then if you want to have the projector switch to high lamp mode for HDR content you need to set that in “more settings” on the User 4 picture mode. Last thing is you need to make both the SDR and HDR picture modes have a flat gamma tone mapping curve. For SDR “natural” mode you can chose your preferred gamma, either 2.2 or 2.4. For the User 4 HDR mode it is a little more complicated. For the “tone mapping” setting switch it to one of the custom modes. Then in the correction value menu choose “import”. If you do all that the Lumagen will do all tone mapping and will auto switch to high lamp when it detects an HDR signal.


----------



## Sandel

cgott42 said:


> Note - This is on a TV - not a projector. So I don't think zooming the display (TV) would work.
> Perhaps I shoudl put this as a separate thread


You can "zoom in" with the Lumagen. This is independent from the display used.


----------



## Bill DePalma

patcub said:


> I have the same projector and a Radiance Pro 4242. I just figured this out with the help of Chris Deutsch at JVC, and some previous posts from Kris Deering. For both your “Natural” SDR picture mode and your User 4 HDR10 picture mode you should change the color profile to either BT.2020 normal or wide, depending if you want to use the wide color filter or not, which slightly reduces brightness. The Lumagen is outputting everything as BT.2020 since you have the color space auto convert on. Then if you want to have the projector switch to high lamp mode for HDR content you need to set that in “more settings” on the User 4 picture mode. Last thing is you need to make both the SDR and HDR picture modes have a flat gamma tone mapping curve. For SDR “natural” mode you can chose your preferred gamma, either 2.2 or 2.4. For the User 4 HDR mode it is a little more complicated. For the “tone mapping” setting switch it to one of the custom modes. Then in the correction value menu choose “import”. If you do all that the Lumagen will do all tone mapping and will auto switch to high lamp when it detects an HDR signal.


Thanks for the detailed information. I finally realized my problem late last evening. I was under the impression that the JVC needed to match the Lumagen in regards to the Lumagen sending an SDR container, so I would tick all the SDR boxes, duh. And I was setting Tonemapping wrong, that requires a Custom setting along with an import of gamma 2.4. (I’m sure I’ll fun messing that up) thanks for your help and everyone else


----------



## sjschaff

fanfan00000043 said:


> thx
> 
> thx dude, I will check what is logitec harmony and how to use it


A word of caution: Logitech is getting out of the business of producing Harmony hardware products. However, they will likely continue to support the ones already in the field for some time. And I've not heard about any competitive products that offer a solid alternative on price and diversity of supported hardware.


----------



## DVD MAN

Hi Folks,
I am trying to set up my Lip sync on Lumagen Radiance Pro , JVC NX9 and Marantz 8802A Processor any help on this is appreciated.


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Hi Folks,
> I am trying to set up my Lip sync on Lumagen Radiance Pro , JVC NX9 and Marantz 8802A Processor any help on this is appreciated.


synch should be done in the Marantz. Make sure you turn off their AUTO function for lip synch immediately. Then use a test pattern for setting synch. I like the one in the Spears and Munsil UHD disc.


----------



## DVD MAN

Kris Deering said:


> synch should be done in the Marantz. Make sure you turn off their AUTO function for lip synch immediately. Then use a test pattern for setting synch. I like the one in the Spears and Munsil UHD disc.


Thank you! My understanding is that the JVC has an input lag of 40MS and the Lumagen 48MS. If I add a delay of 88MS in the Marantz will that put me close enough? I cant quite get it set up with the Spears Munsil disc


----------



## desertdome

DVD MAN said:


> Hi Folks,
> I am trying to set up my Lip sync on Lumagen Radiance Pro , JVC NX9 and Marantz 8802A Processor any help on this is appreciated.


After finding a pattern for sync, you can video it with your phone in slow motion and then replay, pause, and zoom in. My iPhone does 240 fps in slow motion. This can allow one to be a little more precise if not using a Sync-One2.


----------



## YanivZX6R

Question regarding LRP output:
If I feed the LRP with 4:4:4 input why does it output 4:2:2?


----------



## bobof

YanivZX6R said:


> Question regarding LRP output:
> If I feed the LRP with 4:4:4 input why does it output 4:2:2?


It outputs what you set it to output.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## YanivZX6R

bobof said:


> It outputs what you set it to output.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Do you know how do can set it to output 4:4:4? or at least match the input subsampling?


----------



## bobof

YanivZX6R said:


> Do you know how do can set it to output 4:4:4? or at least match the input subsampling?


Output pixel format is in the Styles menu.
I don't think it is possible to make it follow input formats unless you set it up manually to have the same style for particular input, with those styles configured manually to match what the inputs happen to be.
Note that as far as I know the processing always happens in the same formats regardless of what you set the input / output to.


----------



## Drexler

Kris Deering said:


> synch should be done in the Marantz. Make sure you turn off their AUTO function for lip synch immediately. Then use a test pattern for setting synch. I like the one in the Spears and Munsil UHD disc.


I feel I have different delays depending on the source and what material I play. I tried setting it up manually in the AVR for one source, but then switching from e.g. a bluray to TV or streaming and it's completely off. I had to turn back the auto, which is not perfect, but decent.

Setup is UB820/SatBox/Shield - Lumagen Pro - AV8805 - JVC projector


----------



## Bubblehead00

I've gone through a good portion of this forum as well as Jim's excellent tech tips and I haven't been able to figure out what's happening here, so I'm hoping maybe someone has seen this before. I have a LRP 4242 with 18Ghz outputs, on the latest firmware, with the RP in the path between the receiver and projector (a JVC NX7). The issue I'm having almost looks like a loss of resolution. The pictures below were taken of the main screen for my AppleTV from the same distance away from the screen, one with the RP in the path (top one), and the other without (receiver directly to the projector). AppleTV is set to output 4K SDR. Lumagen reports input and output of 4K SDR, so that all looks good. JVC says it's receiving 4K SDR, but you can see some pretty serious jaggies going on with the curves that is easily noticeable from the main seating position and even really far back. I should also point out that it's all video sources that have this distortion, not just the AppleTV. 


























Has anyone seen something like this on their setup?


----------



## DVD MAN

desertdome said:


> After finding a pattern for sync, you can video it with your phone in slow motion and then replay, pause, and zoom in. My iPhone does 240 fps in slow motion. This can allow one to be a little more precise if not using a Sync-One2.


Thank you for that iphone tip. That worked out nicely..82MS for 4K24. I hope this works out for the other resolutions.


----------



## Peule_P

DVD MAN said:


> Thank you for that iphone tip. That worked out nicely..82MS for 4K24. I hope this works out for the other resolutions.


which pattern did you use for this?


----------



## DVD MAN

Hi Folks,
I have a question. When running 4:2:2 on the Kalidescape Strato I noticed red bleed out on a particular scene that Is improved when using 4:4:4. If the Lumagen output is 4:2:2 and the Strato is set to 4:4:4. will there be any negative consequences in setting it up this way?


----------



## DVD MAN

Peule_P said:


> which pattern did you use for this?


Spears and Munsil UHD disc AV Sync Pattern


----------



## jbrinegar

Bubblehead00 said:


> I've gone through a good portion of this forum as well as Jim's excellent tech tips and I haven't been able to figure out what's happening here, so I'm hoping maybe someone has seen this before. I have a LRP 4242 with 18Ghz outputs, on the latest firmware, with the RP in the path between the receiver and projector (a JVC NX7). The issue I'm having almost looks like a loss of resolution. The pictures below were taken of the main screen for my AppleTV from the same distance away from the screen, one with the RP in the path (top one), and the other without (receiver directly to the projector). AppleTV is set to output 4K SDR. Lumagen reports input and output of 4K SDR, so that all looks good. JVC says it's receiving 4K SDR, but you can see some pretty serious jaggies going on with the curves that is easily noticeable from the main seating position and even really far back. I should also point out that it's all video sources that have this distortion, not just the AppleTV.
> 
> View attachment 3222763
> View attachment 3222764
> 
> 
> View attachment 3222765
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen something like this on their setup?


Until pipeline enhancements arrive, you could try changing your apple tv to sdr 24hz. I get less "jaggies" on 24 vs. 60. (Then of course make sure you have rate match turned on and dynamic range match turned on)


----------



## Kris Deering

YanivZX6R said:


> Question regarding LRP output:
> If I feed the LRP with 4:4:4 input why does it output 4:2:2?


Lumagen is designed to process and output in 422. Any other output will have compromises.


----------



## Kris Deering

Bubblehead00 said:


> I've gone through a good portion of this forum as well as Jim's excellent tech tips and I haven't been able to figure out what's happening here, so I'm hoping maybe someone has seen this before. I have a LRP 4242 with 18Ghz outputs, on the latest firmware, with the RP in the path between the receiver and projector (a JVC NX7). The issue I'm having almost looks like a loss of resolution. The pictures below were taken of the main screen for my AppleTV from the same distance away from the screen, one with the RP in the path (top one), and the other without (receiver directly to the projector). AppleTV is set to output 4K SDR. Lumagen reports input and output of 4K SDR, so that all looks good. JVC says it's receiving 4K SDR, but you can see some pretty serious jaggies going on with the curves that is easily noticeable from the main seating position and even really far back. I should also point out that it's all video sources that have this distortion, not just the AppleTV.
> 
> View attachment 3222763
> View attachment 3222764
> 
> 
> View attachment 3222765
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen something like this on their setup?


This is because of 4K60. Will look better if menu is set to 4K24 (less resynchs too). This is what the pipeline enhancement will address.


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Hi Folks,
> I have a question. When running 4:2:2 on the Kalidescape Strato I noticed red bleed out on a particular scene that Is improved when using 4:4:4. If the Lumagen output is 4:2:2 and the Strato is set to 4:4:4. will there be any negative consequences in setting it up this way?


No. The Lumagen will just change the color to 422 for its processing.


----------



## Bubblehead00

Kris Deering said:


> This is because of 4K60. Will look better if menu is set to 4K24 (less resynchs too). This is what the pipeline enhancement will address.


A ha, that did it, thank you! I changed my Strato S over to 4K24 too though the cover flow interface is a bit…rough at 24 fps. Good to know that the content at 4K24 shouldn’t be affected. Thanks again for the help guys!


----------



## MDesigns

Bubblehead00 said:


> I've gone through a good portion of this forum as well as Jim's excellent tech tips and I haven't been able to figure out what's happening here, so I'm hoping maybe someone has seen this before. I have a LRP 4242 with 18Ghz outputs, on the latest firmware, with the RP in the path between the receiver and projector (a JVC NX7). The issue I'm having almost looks like a loss of resolution. The pictures below were taken of the main screen for my AppleTV from the same distance away from the screen, one with the RP in the path (top one), and the other without (receiver directly to the projector). AppleTV is set to output 4K SDR. Lumagen reports input and output of 4K SDR, so that all looks good. JVC says it's receiving 4K SDR, but you can see some pretty serious jaggies going on with the curves that is easily noticeable from the main seating position and even really far back. I should also point out that it's all video sources that have this distortion, not just the AppleTV.
> 
> View attachment 3222763
> View attachment 3222764
> 
> 
> View attachment 3222765
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen something like this on their setup?


Is this without any scaling in the Lumagen? Quite a big jaggies for just passing through the image, looks like the pipeline enhancements are really needed for 4K60.


----------



## bobof

MDesigns said:


> Is this without any scaling in the Lumagen? Quite a big jaggies for just passing through the image, looks like the pipeline enhancements are really needed for 4K60.


I'd imagine so, I don't scale in my unit as my screen is top / bottom mask and still see this. But it doesn't happen with 24p, which is most of the content I watch, so for me it's been a quirk rather than an issue. Glad it's being worked on though.


----------



## woofer

Deleted..


----------



## aguy

Bubblehead00 said:


> A ha, that did it, thank you! I changed my Strato S over to 4K24 too though the cover flow interface is a bit…rough at 24 fps. Good to know that the content at 4K24 shouldn’t be affected. Thanks again for the help guys!


I am curious about something 

When outputting 4k60 is this affecting only 1080p 60hz input as well or is it only if the input is 4k60 ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

aguy said:


> When outputting 4k60 is this affecting only 1080p 60hz input as well or is it only if the input is 4k60 ?


As I mentioned, the upcoming pipeline enhancements improve 1080i50, 1080i60, 1080p50, 1080p60, 4k50, and 4k60 content (output as 4k50, or 4k60, as appropriate).

Said another way, image quality for 4k50, or 4k60, output format is being significantly improved for all source formats. This include 1080p60 and 4k60 from your question.

Patrick sent me another engineering test release for the enhancement update. It is working much better in the Lumagen demo theater than the previous engineering release, and so is a big step forward. While there are more bug fixes needed, I can already see significant improvement in the source formats listed above, including 16:9 content when the Radiance Pro output aspect is set to 2.40.


----------



## aguy

jrp said:


> Said another way, image quality for 4k50, or 4k60, output format is being significantly improved for all source formats. This include 1080p60 and 4k60 from your question.


Thanks for that. It definitely answers my question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fanfan00000043

jrp said:


> As I mentioned, the upcoming pipeline enhancements improve 1080i50, 1080i60, 1080p50, 1080p60, 4k50, and 4k60 content (output as 4k50, or 4k60, as appropriate).
> 
> Said another way, image quality for 4k50, or 4k60, output format is being significantly improved for all source formats. This include 1080p60 and 4k60 from your question.
> 
> Patrick sent me another engineering test release for the enhancement update. It is working much better in the Lumagen demo theater than the previous engineering release, and so is a big step forward. While there are more bug fixes needed, I can already see significant improvement in the source formats listed above, including 16:9 content when the Radiance Pro output aspect is set to 2.40.


appreciated your brilliant work Jim, can't wait for the new FW.
more and more 50p 4k content show up in netflix and amazon prime, and in 4k 24p setting of apple tv/shield some times cause weird problem such as for some content 4k resolution option disappeared,only left 720p , and apple tv plus /disney plus sometimes only give you only 1080p streaming data but not 4k, the enhancement of 50p/60p is badly needed...


----------



## bobof

fanfan00000043 said:


> appreciated your brilliant work Jim, can't wait for the new FW.
> more and more 50p 4k content show up in netflix and amazon prime


Do you have any examples? Last time I checked I couldn't find any actual 50p content. All the 50p output of the AppleTV in Netflix was actually 25p content that the AppleTV was choosing to output at 50p. Could have changed though, as there are 50p test titles in the library, so of course it is supported by Netflix.


----------



## aguy

bobof said:


> Do you have any examples? Last time I checked I couldn't find any actual 50p content. All the 50p output of the AppleTV in Netflix was actually 25p content that the AppleTV was choosing to output at 50p. Could have changed though, as there are 50p test titles in the library, so of course it is supported by Netflix.


Not being facetious here. I’m genuinely curious. What difference does it make whether it can is true 50p or if it is 25p outputted as 50p. In both cases I would have thought the lumagen treats it the same. Honestly happy to learn if this is incorrect 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

aguy said:


> Not being facetious here. I’m genuinely curious. What difference does it make whether it can is true 50p or if it is 25p outputted as 50p. In both cases I would have thought the lumagen treats it the same. Honestly happy to learn if this is incorrect


I've never actually seen this issue discussed in "real" video, only in test charts and the computer generated UI, and I hardly ever watch 4K50 or 60, so for me the whole thing isn't much of an issue. But if 25p content being doubled to 50p via AppleTV was a source of a lot of content for you, and you either had seen the effect, or wanted to be sure you weren't seeing the effects, then this opens up at least a couple of temporary options to you; find a player that doesn't do the doubling of 25 to 50, or force 25 somehow on the AppleTV.

The Nvidia Shield for instance doesn't have this odd framerate doubling effect if you make it match rates with the frame rate matching app. Netflix is one of the only apps I could make that app work with, though, it didn't work with Amazon at all well on that platform.

Not ideal, but given it's only a temporary plaster til the release comes, it might be helpful to the OP to know if it is an AppleTV-ism or something else.

And anyway, I'm interested just in the trivia of knowing where to find bits of content that are hiterto "unusual" in the various libraries, as they can be useful for testing things / displacing other far more useful bits of knowledge in my little brain...


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> The Nvidia Shield for instance doesn't have this odd framerate doubling effect if you make it match rates with the frame rate matching app.


What is the app called? Would like to check it out... thanks.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> What is the app called? Would like to check it out... thanks.











Refresh Rate - Apps on Google Play


Automatic display mode matching to video frame rate for Nvidia Shield TV.




play.google.com





In my experience it is cranky - or maybe more likely, apps get cranky when the refresh rate changes during playback. It has lots of interesting options which would be more useful if it worked reliably! Netflix for me was just about the only thing it worked well with.


----------



## gattorodolfo

sorry but what problems does the radiance have with the new jvc nz9? serious or bearable?
thanks I await your answers


----------



## Gordon Fraser

gattorodolfo said:


> sorry but what problems does the radiance have with the new jvc nz9? serious or bearable?
> thanks I await your answers


I installed one of the first NZ9 here in UK yesterday to a client with a 5348. The issue is that randomly you get what looks like one frame having a pink/blueish tint so it appears like a flash of different colour over the image. I was in clients for over 5hrs and i saw it once before i started and once i'd finished and was watching and testing content i didn't see it once. I had disabled all laser dimming and the client was going to test with the different auto dimming settings over this weekend. There is pre production firmware available that does not have the latest laser dimming algorithms in it that does not show this effect, even with the dimming turned on. I would expect JVC will be able to reproduce this and resolve it. I did not have this pre prodcution firmware available to me at the time so was unable to try it out.


----------



## YanivZX6R

gattorodolfo said:


> sorry but what problems does the radiance have with the new jvc nz9? serious or bearable?
> thanks I await your answers


Move the Lumagen to the end of your video chain and let the AV processor do the video switching.
It worked for me, this way you can use the latest firmware with the laser dimming and not have any issues until this is fixed.
Just remember to switch off video processing on your AVR and all is good.

Can anothers share if that worked for them also or didn't work?


----------



## Sittler27

I cannot seem to get my Lumagen RP to connect to my Windows 10 laptop - always get the error message when trying to apply the latest firmware.

Device Manager shows FT232R USB UART under Other Devices.
I have enabled Legacy and the Ports (COM & LPT) and shows as COM1, but still doesn't work.
Both of these have a yellow exclamation mark indicating the drivers or settings for this device cannot be determined.

Any ideas?


----------



## sjschaff

Sittler27 said:


> I cannot seem to get my Lumagen RP to connect to my Windows 10 laptop - always get the error message when trying to apply the latest firmware.
> 
> Device Manager shows FT232R USB UART under Other Devices.
> I have enabled Legacy and the Ports (COM & LPT) and shows as COM1, but still doesn't work.
> Both of these have a yellow exclamation mark indicating the drivers or settings for this device cannot be determined.
> 
> Any ideas?


See if this helps:

From a post by JRP a number of months ago:

If you have issues doing a Radiance Pro update, you may need the latest USB-to-Serial driver for your Windows 10 PC from the FTDIchip.com website. There is a Windows driver in the USB to serial chip that is in the Radiance Pro. Windows loads this driver, but Microsoft seems to always be changing things such that you may need to download the latest from the FTDIchip.com website.

Once there click on Drivers, and then VCP (Virtual COM Port), and then download the driver that matches your operating system bits (64 or 32). There are instructions there on how to download and install the updated Windows driver.


----------



## Sittler27

sjschaff said:


> See if this helps:
> 
> From a post by JRP a number of months ago:
> 
> If you have issues doing a Radiance Pro update, you may need the latest USB-to-Serial driver for your Windows 10 PC from the FTDIchip.com website. There is a Windows driver in the USB to serial chip that is in the Radiance Pro. Windows loads this driver, but Microsoft seems to always be changing things such that you may need to download the latest from the FTDIchip.com website.
> 
> Once there click on Drivers, and then VCP (Virtual COM Port), and then download the driver that matches your operating system bits (64 or 32). There are instructions there on how to download and install the updated Windows driver.


Thanks so much - that worked!


----------



## sjschaff

Sittler27 said:


> Thanks so much - that worked!


Your most welcome. 

Hope some day there will be a MacOS version. I only keep my Windows laptop around for this function.


----------



## wayne5w

sjschaff said:


> Your most welcome.
> 
> Hope some day there will be a MacOS version. I only keep my Windows laptop around for this function.


Considering purchasing an LRP. I am in the same boat except have no windoze around, all crapple here. Has anyone tried running the update from Windoze on a VM on MacOS?


----------



## sjschaff

wayne5w said:


> Considering purchasing an LRP. I am in the same boat except have no windoze around, all crapple here. Has anyone tried running the update from Windoze on a VM on MacOS?


I did that when my laptop supported BootCamp. As I moved to an M1 based system, I’ve returned to using a native Win PC. I would hope that the basic Win drivers and those from FTDIchip would work with Mac hardware. I’ll leave that to others to verify.


----------



## OzHDHT

YanivZX6R said:


> Move the Lumagen to the end of your video chain and let the AV processor do the video switching.
> It worked for me, this way you can use the latest firmware with the laser dimming and not have any issues until this is fixed.
> Just remember to switch off video processing on your AVR and all is good.
> 
> Can anothers share if that worked for them also or didn't work?


May be ok in some set ups but getting the AVP out of the video chain was a big selling point for me with the LRP. My MX160 is completely hopeless with anything like a 4K signal thanks to its outdated chipset. Fortunately it doesn't look like we'll see any NZ9's arrive here till next month some time, so I'm going worry too much till I have one installed.


----------



## Sittler27

How does one check digital black on the Lumagen?

I know it’s a step to check brightness setting with a clipping pattern but how do you check the setting for black in the Lumagen before carrying on with a LUT calibration?


----------



## Bubblehead00

Sittler27 said:


> How does one check digital black on the Lumagen?
> 
> I know it’s a step to check brightness setting with a clipping pattern but how do you check the setting for black in the Lumagen before carrying on with a LUT calibration?


I found Jim's interview on YouTube here at about the 1:13 minute mark helpful for setting my black level in the Lumagen. Lumagen update with Murideo and Jim Peterson July 2021 - YouTube


----------



## jrp

Setting digital black and other Radiance Pro setup info are in the attached setup slide set for those who missed these slides before.


----------



## Geof

Geof said:


> More Dropouts
> A few pages back I posted that I had resolved my dropout problems. I was right - until there was one - and now that's wrong. The good news is I was able to definitively prove the source of my dropouts is the Oppo UDP-203. The bad news is it's my Oppo. The good news is it's not my Lumagen. The bad news is it's my Oppo (sorry this just sucks).


An FYI for Oppo owners...
I sent my UDP-203 to Oppo because of the dropout issue. Oppo customer support is 2nd to none (on par with JRP's support). Really excellent.
It took 1 day, just 1 day, for Oppo to repair the unit and give it back to FedEx. They replaced a defective "optical unit". 
I will try it out when it arrives but I'm expecting my Oppo to be fully working again...


----------



## Sittler27

I was hoping someone could help me out with some settings decisions for my HDR Profile Off/High Bright NZ9 calibration with Lumagen.

My Lumagen outputs CMS0 at Rec709 and CMS1 at SDR2020.
I'm using Colourspace.

I'd like to perform a 1DLUT in CS for HDR to load into CMS1 on the Lumagen.

On the JVC I have HDR/User4 mode, but I'm unsure what to properly select for Color Profile?
Is it Off(Normal) or is it BT.2020(Normal)?

Also, not sure what to select for Tone Mapping. Is it HDR(Auto)? Or should I choose Custom1 and then select "Import"?


----------



## aguy

Question for Jim @jrp

I have hdmi sources that are plugged into the radiance pro inputs all the time but are powered down. From the radiance point of view are they still likely to be “seen” as plugged in and therefore potentially affecting the hdmi chain or is having the source powered down efffectively the same as not having them plugged in at all? 

Thanks in advance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sittler27

Sittler27 said:


> I was hoping someone could help me out with some settings decisions for my HDR Profile Off/High Bright NZ9 calibration with Lumagen.
> 
> My Lumagen outputs CMS0 at Rec709 and CMS1 at SDR2020.
> I'm using Colourspace.
> 
> I'd like to perform a 1DLUT in CS for HDR to load into CMS1 on the Lumagen.
> 
> On the JVC I have HDR/User4 mode, but I'm unsure what to properly select for Color Profile?
> Is it Off(Normal) or is it BT.2020(Normal)?
> 
> Also, not sure what to select for Tone Mapping. Is it HDR(Auto)? Or should I choose Custom1 and then select "Import"?


I think I figured out the right settings (wow does HDR look phenomenal now).

BT2020(Normal) and Custom1/Import when projector is in HDR10 Profile Off/High Bright and Lumagen is outputting SDR2020.


----------



## Sittler27

Sittler27 said:


> I think I figured out the right settings (wow does HDR look phenomenal now).
> 
> BT2020(Normal) and Custom1/Import when projector is in HDR10 Profile Off/High Bright and Lumagen is outputting SDR2020.


My only challenge with these settings is that they look good by eye on content, but when I go measure them I get a Rec709 sized gamut.
My RP is outputting SDR2020.

any ideas what’s wrong?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Sittler27 said:


> My only challenge with these settings is that they look good by eye on content, but when I go measure them I get a Rec709 sized gamut.
> My RP is outputting SDR2020.
> 
> any ideas what’s wrong?


For _measurement_ make sure you have Gamut Convert OFF in CMS.


----------



## Sittler27

Ok. Thanks

I also notice some kind of scan lines on edges of things on my tv source via Lumagen. Almost like a slight deinterlacing on edges of mainly horizontal objects that are in motion.

It only happens on that source and it is outputting 1080p to the Lumagen.

I didn’t touch anything in Lumagen settings when switching from NX9 to NZ9. 

I’ve tried swapping the HDMI cable but it didn’t fix it.

any ideas? Something to do with scaling?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Sittler27 said:


> Ok. Thanks
> 
> I also notice some kind of scan lines on edges of things on my tv source via Lumagen. Almost like a slight deinterlacing on edges of mainly horizontal objects that are in motion.
> 
> It only happens on that source and it is outputting 1080p to the Lumagen.
> 
> I didn’t touch anything in Lumagen settings when switching from NX9 to NZ9.
> 
> I’ve tried swapping the HDMI cable but it didn’t fix it.
> 
> any ideas? Something to do with scaling?


Hard to say...of course, if the content is video based it is likely natively interlaced so the device doing the i to P conversion, your source, could be the issue here.


----------



## Sittler27

Gordon Fraser said:


> Hard to say...of course, if the content is video based it is likely natively interlaced so the device doing the i to P conversion, your source, could be the issue here.


Ok. Will investigate.

so for profile off cal, should I be selecting Off(Normal) or BT.2020(Normal) for Color Profile.
Lumagen is set to SDR2020 output.


----------



## Nima

No you select Off (Normal) or Off (Wide).


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Sittler27 said:


> Ok. Will investigate.
> 
> so for profile off cal, should I be selecting Off(Normal) or BT.2020(Normal) for Color Profile.
> Lumagen is set to SDR2020 output.


If you are going to do a LUT based calibration then i'd go with what NIMA suggests. If you are not doing a LUT based calibration and just want to test things then use the BT2020 normal or Wide
Be aware there is a bug in the NZ9 firmware where, if you go from a preset that uses Off normal to one that uses Off wide then the white balance adjustments in the PJ will not load up correctly. ie you have set 100percent peak white to D65 for both presets but you will find that sometimes when you go from one to the other the white balance will look like its at default high brightness white balance and pretty yellowish. I am trying to get an email address for someone at JVC to get them to fix this....


----------



## Nima

@Gordon Fraser do you know whether High Bright retains it's individual settings for different user modes? So one can use it for Rec709 and UHD 2020 calibration (with different brightness levels)? Or does it behave like in the NX series and is just good for one setting/calibration?


----------



## Kris Deering

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you are going to do a LUT based calibration then i'd go with what NIMA suggests. If you are not doing a LUT based calibration and just want to test things then use the BT2020 normal or Wide
> Be aware there is a bug in the NZ9 firmware where, if you go from a preset that uses Off normal to one that uses Off wide then the white balance adjustments in the PJ will not load up correctly. ie you have set 100percent peak white to D65 for both presets but you will find that sometimes when you go from one to the other the white balance will look like its at default high brightness white balance and pretty yellowish. I am trying to get an email address for someone at JVC to get them to fix this....


I believe Rob at JVC found a fix for this. Before you do any adjustment of the HIGH BRIGHT settings, you have to press RESET. Another calibrator tested this and it cleared the issue and he could no longer reproduce it.


----------



## Nima

What about using High Bright for different user slots with different D65 adjustments and brightness?


----------



## Mark Burton

What’s the current recommendation for hdr / dtm settings? Just picked up an rs3000, so trying to dial it in as best as I can.


----------



## audioguy

I have the JVC Zip file I got from Lumagen that will revert to a previous version of the JVC firmware that will solve the "randomly flashing pink" issue with the Z9. Question: Do I just unzip that file, put it on a USB stick and place in the USB port of the projector, and the PJ will provide instructions on how to proceed? At first the flashing was not so bothersome but now it is way past annoying!!


----------



## Sittler27

On the NX9 we used to have to create a 2.4 Import setting via Autocal in order to use it in the JvC menu.
On this new NZ series can I presume that selecting Custom1 and “Import” is sufficient? (Or it’s baked in now)


----------



## Nima

Yes unzip to USB (Fat32) and got to Softwares Update in the JVC.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Replaced my Kaleidescape Stratos S to a Stratos C and post install... I see the picture is much grainier than before the install.
The covers are much more grainier.
Not sure if it is a setting I missed on the Strato C (I copied the settings of the Strato S exactly on the Strato C) or if it is the Lumagen acting up due to pulling HDMI cables in and out.
I did the usual cold boot of the Lumagen and the various components (Apply TV Roku Strato Etc) ... but picture remains grainier than ever.
Now I am noticing more grain even on Apple TV.... 
If anyone has experience with this and any clues please post.
PS - Thinking of updating Lumagen Firmware which is running 070921....


----------



## SJHT

I did the same change and picture quality was pretty much identical…. I’m running the latest firmware.


----------



## YanivZX6R

Ash Sharma said:


> Replaced my Kaleidescape Stratos S to a Stratos C and post install... I see the picture is much grainier than before the install.
> The covers are much more grainier.
> Not sure if it is a setting I missed on the Strato C (I copied the settings of the Strato S exactly on the Strato C) or if it is the Lumagen acting up due to pulling HDMI cables in and out.
> I did the usual cold boot of the Lumagen and the various components (Apply TV Roku Strato Etc) ... but picture remains grainier than ever.
> Now I am noticing more grain even on Apple TV....
> If anyone has experience with this and any clues please post.
> PS - Thinking of updating Lumagen Firmware which is running 070921....


Try to play with the color sampling on the K side make sure the input for the Lumagen is at least 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, if you leave it on auto sometimes it will negotiate 4:2:0










But since you mentioned you have the problem with Apple TV also it is most likely not the K


----------



## Sittler27

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you are going to do a LUT based calibration then i'd go with what NIMA suggests. If you are not doing a LUT based calibration and just want to test things then use the BT2020 normal or Wide
> Be aware there is a bug in the NZ9 firmware where, if you go from a preset that uses Off normal to one that uses Off wide then the white balance adjustments in the PJ will not load up correctly. ie you have set 100percent peak white to D65 for both presets but you will find that sometimes when you go from one to the other the white balance will look like its at default high brightness white balance and pretty yellowish. I am trying to get an email address for someone at JVC to get them to fix this....


I am doing a LUT based calibration, and managed to get HDR done pretty good I think, but I'm having a real problem with doing one for SDR/CMS0.
Would really appreciate some guidance:

CMS0 Output is set to Auto (SDR709).
Gamut convert and hdr intensity are both Off.

JVC SDR is on Off(Normal) and HighBright.
Low laser 

I've created a 1DLUT targeting Rec709 from a GreyRampLarge profile, but once I load it into the CMS0 slot the picture changes for the worse.
Blacks are not as deep and colors lack punch.

Add: I am on the 0.61 preprod firmware on the JVC

edit: after I load a 1dlut and then go to run another profile, the dark black surrounding the windowed patterns becomes reddish instead of black. Is something up with my meter or something?
I’m just wondering if my i1display3 can’t read that far low and then it’s telling the LUT it’s reddish and elevated down that low?

edit2: I went into colourspace and deleted the low red anomalous readings and that seems to have gotten rid of the reddish tint on deep black areas but not sure if this is how you do it.


----------



## Erod

Does setting the output to 9 Ghz mean the signal is reduced to 8-bit 4:2:0? Is there a visible picture quality difference with HDR compared to the 18 GHz output setting with 4:2:2?


----------



## Ash Sharma

Ash Sharma said:


> Replaced my Kaleidescape Stratos S to a Stratos C and post install... I see the picture is much grainier than before the install.
> The covers are much more grainier.
> Not sure if it is a setting I missed on the Strato C (I copied the settings of the Strato S exactly on the Strato C) or if it is the Lumagen acting up due to pulling HDMI cables in and out.
> I did the usual cold boot of the Lumagen and the various components (Apply TV Roku Strato Etc) ... but picture remains grainier than ever.
> Now I am noticing more grain even on Apple TV....
> If anyone has experience with this and any clues please post.
> PS - Thinking of updating Lumagen Firmware which is running 070921....


Applying the latest firmware solved all the issues ...


----------



## Nima

There is no downside going with a higher multiplier for Max Light, correct?

I have 160 nits and watching the famous MEG scene I find a multiplier of 8x to work best. Dpad at 4. Low ratio so that I get almost 1x.


----------



## Sittler27

Well, I've given up on creating/loading my LUT calibrations into the Lumagen for my NZ9.

Spent countless hours over the last few days, and totally frustrated.

The issue seems to happen once I load the 1DLUT. I can tell right away after that when I run another profile that the patterns the Lumagen are throwing up (via Colour Space sw) are wrong. 

Near black has a reddish tint that wasn't there prior to loading the 1DLUT. When the sweep gets to 90-95% patterns I can see the patterns visibly change tint slightly from the gray they should be.

Also, the measurements show grayscale ok, but the clipping graph has wild anomolies (ok through mid range but wildly low or high in the low IRE and high IRE measures).

I know I have all the right settings for the measurements in the JVC, Lumagen and Colour Space - including gamut convert disabled, HDR Intensity Off.
Not sure what the heck is going on.

I pushed through an entire 1DLUT + 3DLUT load, and the results were quite horrible. Visible posterization and banding in HDR and SDR. Elevated blacks - a mess.

I'm not sure if it's a usb or hdmi cable, my i1displaypro, the Lumagen itself.

The one interesting thing is manual measures seem to work accurately and fine (i.e putting up an Adjustable Lumagen pattern and having the meter read read it).
You would think then it has something to do with the Lumagen not running through it's auto-grayscale patterns properly when kicked off from within Colour Space.

At this point, I've reverted back to ootb settings and just made manual adjustments to gains as needed.

Any advice or thoughts is much appreciated, thanks.


----------



## Nima

I think what is happening to you is the same that happened to me and @GordonFraser finally was able to help me. When you upload the 1D LUT or 3D LUT you have to make sure that afterwards you are not measuring the Reference patterns but the Adjusted patterns which take color management (and therefore the LUT) into account. 

If you always measure reference patterns you are indeed going in circles. The solutions for me was in CS always to go to the TPG page and select custom after each interaction with the Lumagen menus. Also make sure to do a save once you upload LUTs into the Lumagen.


----------



## audioguy

Nima said:


> There is no downside going with a higher multiplier for Max Light, correct?
> 
> I have 160 nits and watching the famous MEG scene I find a multiplier of 8x to work best. Dpad at 4. Low ratio so that I get almost 1x.


What is the time stamp on the MEG scene?


----------



## Nima

Dunno out of my head but the one at the beginning with the red in the submarine and then the famous scene where they are all in the water. I think ca. 1:08. 

I also checked with the new Dune (2021) and I really like a 8x multiplier with the amount of light (160 nits) I have availble.


----------



## audioguy

Nima said:


> Dunno out of my head but the one at the beginning with the red in the submarine and then the famous scene where they are all in the water. I think ca. 1:08.
> 
> I also checked with the new Dune (2021) and I really like a 8x multiplier with the amount of light (160 nits) I have available.


Thank you. What projector are you using that is giving you that kind of light output? The Big Sony?


----------



## Nima

The big light is due to my DaLite High Power 2.8 gain.


----------



## Sittler27

Nima said:


> I think what is happening to you is the same that happened to me and @GordonFraser finally was able to help me. When you upload the 1D LUT or 3D LUT you have to make sure that afterwards you are not measuring the Reference patterns but the Adjusted patterns which take color management (and therefore the LUT) into account.
> 
> If you always measure reference patterns you are indeed going in circles. The solutions for me was in CS always to go to the TPG page and select custom after each interaction with the Lumagen menus. Also make sure to do a save once you upload LUTs into the Lumagen.


How do you get Colourspace to trigger the adjustable patterns vs. the reference patterns?

I choose custom on the CS page, 18% size, CMS0 or 1, then either SDR and Rec709 or HDR and Rec2020 accordingly.

When I choose in CS to trigger the patterns to the Lumagen and kick off the measure, it just cycles patterns up there with no R or A indication (just the box pattern itself).

And yes, I always do saves after all changes in Lumagen (PITA).


----------



## bferbrache

audioguy said:


> What is the time stamp on the MEG scene?


Post from jrp about this movie









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hmm, I'm running into an odd issue. When I connect the USB cable, I cannot create a backup of my Radiance Pro. I tried all ports explicitly (although I know to check Device Manager) and even tried lower baud rates. Every time I got an error message. Note, I'm running Windows 10. Making matters...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Sittler27

Nima said:


> There is no downside going with a higher multiplier for Max Light, correct?
> 
> I have 160 nits and watching the famous MEG scene I find a multiplier of 8x to work best. Dpad at 4. Low ratio so that I get almost 1x.





audioguy said:


> What is the time stamp on the MEG scene?


I have a similar question too, as now I'm getting 133 nits available in mid laser/filter off with my NZ9 + DCR lens and that's with the iris at -4. I have a Studiotek 130 G4.

I figure:
133 * 5 = 700 max light
Low Ratio - I figure using a 1.5x factor, so likely 33 or 34
Dynpad = 2 or 3


----------



## Nima

Sittler27 said:


> I choose custom on the CS page, 18% size, CMS0 or 1, then either SDR and Rec709 or HDR and Rec2020 accordingly.


Can you try 100% and see if the A or the R appears?


----------



## Erod

Erod said:


> Does setting the output to 9 Ghz mean the signal is reduced to 8-bit 4:2:0? Is there a visible picture quality difference with HDR compared to the 18 GHz output setting with 4:2:2?


Anyone know the answer to this?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Erod said:


> Anyone know the answer to this?


You will only get 8 bit for a 50/60Hz 4K output with 9GHz selected. In testing, that Lumagen did on their own Z1, Jim was unable to detect any difference between their dithered 9GHz output and the full 18GHz output with 4K60HDR actual video content in and out. This was about two years ago when they spent a lot of time working on their perceptual dithering for that specific case scenario. I am unsure if anything has changed in that regard or if it will with the pipeling enhancement that's on the way. I expect Jim will let us know when he has a moment.


----------



## Sittler27

If my cable box is set to output 1080p, what should the Output in the Lumagen be set to?

Mine is set to 1080i60, and I get some strange interlacing artifacts on edges of some content (not every channel/not all content shows it). Usually fine detail content in motion shows horizontal "scan" lines on edges of things.

I can't seem to force the Lumagen's Output to force 1080p60 setting. I press "OK" and to try and enable that setting and it doesn't do anything nor prompt me to save like normal in the Lumagen.


----------



## tomasg

I am going to use HDMI splitter for my TV cable box. One output to TV, second to Lumagen. Can I harm somehow Lumagen with this installation? Thanks


----------



## jrp

Gordon Fraser said:


> You will only get 8 bit for a 50/60Hz 4K output with 9GHz selected. In testing, that Lumagen did on their own Z1, Jim was unable to detect any difference between their dithered 9GHz output and the full 18GHz output with 4K60HDR actual video content in and out. This was about two years ago when they spent a lot of time working on their perceptual dithering for that specific case scenario. I am unsure if anything has changed in that regard or if it will with the pipeline enhancement that's on the way. I expect Jim will let us know when he has a moment.


We have not changed the output dither. So, while I have not done the comparison between 8 and 12 bit output since then I am sure the results have not changed.

I am careful to say "I never saw any difference on the toughest HDR content at 4k60 I could find," rather than "there is no difference." I evaluated the images close to the screen and saw no differences even up close. So, I believe there would never be a visible difference at viewing distance for any scene. However, not having evaluated every possible scene I have to limit my conclusion to what I state above.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> If my cable box is set to output 1080p, what should the Output in the Lumagen be set to?
> 
> Mine is set to 1080i60, and I get some strange interlacing artifacts on edges of some content (not every channel/not all content shows it). Usually fine detail content in motion shows horizontal "scan" lines on edges of things.
> 
> I can't seem to force the Lumagen's Output to force 1080p60 setting. I press "OK" and to try and enable that setting and it doesn't do anything nor prompt me to save like normal in the Lumagen.


If the cable box is outputting 1080p you should make the Lumagen output either 1080p60 or 4k60. 
It sounds like maybe you're not understanding how the output screen works. You make changes based on certain input conditions (eg input 2, all memories, 1080p60) and then change the output resolution / rate (it might be Auto by default) (can also change other conditions like which CMS to use). If I recall right, when you press OK it doesn't do the change. It performs the change when you press Exit to come out of the output screen. At that point if the setting you have selected is different to the saved on pressing Menu again you should have the unsaved changes prompt displayed on the screen.

I wonder if your Lumagen is picking an output resolution based on what something else connected in your system is saying it can handle.

Maybe if you can't make it work you could describe what you have connected to your outputs, and show a couple of screenshots of what you see on the output screen and the info screen for the sources in question?


----------



## tomasg

jrp said:


> If you have not chosen your screen yet, and and you are okay with some stretch, and a bit of side cropping for 2.35 and 2.40 content, choose a 2.1 aspect screen. I have now convinced a few people who split their time equally between 16:9 content, and movies, that a 2.1 aspect screen is a reasonable choice. Let's do the math:
> 
> Content Programmed output aspect in Lumagen Output Style Style0 menu:
> 4:3 1.90
> 16:9 1.90
> 1.90 1.90
> 2.00 2.00 (about 5% horizontal stretch)
> 2.20 2.20 (about 5% vertical stretch)
> 2.35 2.35 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
> 2.40 2.40 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
> 
> This mixes horizontal stretch, with vertical stretch and cropping of the sides. I considered a 2.1 aspect screen for the Lumagen Demo theater. However, since I am 95% movies, I went with a 2.40 Stewart StudioTek 130.
> 
> If you want to mix in NLS for the 16:9 content to fill the 2.1 screen, using auto-aspect, select "NLS when applicable," and set the output aspect to the actual 2.10 aspect ratio for 16:9 content in the output Style0 aspect menu. Then make sure to adjust the center section stretch to about 10% for the 16:9 content.


Hello, I already have 2.1 screen. Is it possible to get export of configuration mentioned installations 2.1 screens? 
If it is not possible can I set invividual stretch, crop, mask for individual aspect ratio?

Thank you.


----------



## jbrinegar

Sittler27 said:


> If my cable box is set to output 1080p, what should the Output in the Lumagen be set to?
> 
> Mine is set to 1080i60, and I get some strange interlacing artifacts on edges of some content (not every channel/not all content shows it). Usually fine detail content in motion shows horizontal "scan" lines on edges of things.
> 
> I can't seem to force the Lumagen's Output to force 1080p60 setting. I press "OK" and to try and enable that setting and it doesn't do anything nor prompt me to save like normal in the Lumagen.


if you are using a DCR, shouldn’t your output be 4096p60?


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> If the cable box is outputting 1080p you should make the Lumagen output either 1080p60 or 4k60.
> It sounds like maybe you're not understanding how the output screen works. You make changes based on certain input conditions (eg input 2, all memories, 1080p60) and then change the output resolution / rate (it might be Auto by default) (can also change other conditions like which CMS to use). If I recall right, when you press OK it doesn't do the change. It performs the change when you press Exit to come out of the output screen. At that point if the setting you have selected is different to the saved on pressing Menu again you should have the unsaved changes prompt displayed on the screen.
> 
> I wonder if your Lumagen is picking an output resolution based on what something else connected in your system is saying it can handle.
> 
> Maybe if you can't make it work you could describe what you have connected to your outputs, and show a couple of screenshots of what you see on the output screen and the info screen for the sources in question?


Below are some pics of my Lumagen output settings.
This is while the cable box is outputting 1080p (as per the cable box settings menu).

In the second pic, when I go and change in condition mode to 1080p60, and then press OK, it doesn't do anything. When I back out of this output menu I don't get the "save" option in yellow like I do with other changes, and when I go back into this menu it has reverted back to 1080i60.

As for connected sources:
Input 1 - cable box outputting 1080p
Input 2 - Nvidia Shield set to output 4K
Input 3 - Xbox Series X
Audio output to HTP-1
Video output to NZ9


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Below are some pics of my Lumagen output settings.
> This is while the cable box is outputting 1080p (as per the cable box settings menu).
> 
> In the second pic, when I go and change in condition mode to 1080p60, and then press OK, it doesn't do anything. When I back out of this output menu I don't get the "save" option in yellow like I do with other changes, and when I go back into this menu it has reverted back to 1080i60.
> 
> As for connected sources:
> Input 1 - cable box outputting 1080p
> Input 2 - Nvidia Shield set to output 4K
> Input 3 - Xbox Series X
> Audio output to HTP-1
> Video output to NZ9
> 
> View attachment 3225915
> View attachment 3225916


Your cable box is outputting 1080i. You can't change the in condition in the Lumagen for it without also changing the cable box output - you'd have to change the output setup of the cable box to 1080p if you wanted the cable box to deinterlace. At the moment the deinterlacing should be being done in the Radiance, which I think should likely be optimal, though on some sources I've occasionally seen mixed results. There is a field flip somewhere in the menus I think that can help in some situations with odd deinterlacing issues. Maybe you could try it.

In setting the in condition to 1080p in the Lumagen outputs screen, what you were saying is "if the input is 1080p, then do this to it" but because the cable box is outputting 1080i and not 1080p you won't see any effect!

Hope that makes some kind of sense. 

Do you have an installer/ calibrator you work with at all in your setup?


----------



## jrp

tomasg said:


> Hello, I already have 2.1 screen. Is it possible to get export of configuration mentioned installations 2.1 screens?
> If it is not possible can I set individual stretch, crop, mask for individual aspect ratio?


We do not have a configuration for the case mentioned in my post you quoted. For these special cases, each system is unique, and each user has their own preferences. So one configuration does not fit all.

If the quoted post from me is not enough information, I suggest we take your request to email. You can email the lumagen.com support email to start a dialog on this.


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> Your cable box is outputting 1080i. You can't change the in condition in the Lumagen for it without also changing the cable box output - you'd have to change the output setup of the cable box to 1080p if you wanted the cable box to deinterlace. At the moment the deinterlacing should be being done in the Radiance, which I think should likely be optimal, though on some sources I've occasionally seen mixed results. There is a field flip somewhere in the menus I think that can help in some situations with odd deinterlacing issues. Maybe you could try it.
> 
> In setting the in condition to 1080p in the Lumagen outputs screen, what you were saying is "if the input is 1080p, then do this to it" but because the cable box is outputting 1080i and not 1080p you won't see any effect!
> 
> Hope that makes some kind of sense.
> 
> Do you have an installer/ calibrator you work with at all in your setup?


No calibrator. Just me.

it’s weird because cable box is definitely set to 1080p.

it must be the NZ9 being sharper or something that is making me notice the deinterlacing lines more on certain content. 
never bothered me on my NX9.


----------



## Geof

Sittler27 said:


> No calibrator. Just me.
> 
> it’s weird because cable box is definitely set to 1080p.
> 
> it must be the NZ9 being sharper or something that is making me notice the deinterlacing lines more on certain content.
> never bothered me on my NX9.


Could it be that only select programs are shown in 1080p?


----------



## jrp

There has been more progress on the pipeline enhancement update, but we continue to be slowed down dealing with some bugs in the FPGA design changes.

I have been able to do a lot of testing for 1080p60, and 4k60, input to 4k60 output. Source at 4k50 is essentially the same as 4k60. So these tests should apply to 4k50 as well.

1080p60, and 4k60 input looks excellent at 4k60 output, even when the Pro is downscaling 16:9 content horizontally to 16:9 on a 2.35 or 2.40 screen with the Pro set to 2.35 or 2.40 output aspect.

I have been using the JVC 4k60 test disc at 4k60 into and out of the Radiance Pro. It looks excellent at 3840x2160 with the Radiance Pro output aspect set to 16:9, and 4096x1706 with the Radiance Pro output aspect set to 2.40, and source aspect selected as 16:9.

As this shows, the video processing is now in excellent shape. We are down to getting the deinterlacing working better with the new processing pipeline, other control bugs such as in the DRAM controller, and getting test patterns working.

Thanks for your patience while we fix these issues and get into the Alpha testing phase.


----------



## fanfan00000043

jrp said:


> There has been more progress on the pipeline enhancement update, but we continue to be slowed down dealing with some bugs in the FPGA design changes.
> 
> I have been able to do a lot of testing for 1080p60, and 4k60, input to 4k60 output. Source at 4k50 is essentially the same as 4k60. So these tests should apply to 4k50 as well.
> 
> 1080p60, and 4k60 input looks excellent at 4k60 output, even when the Pro is downscaling 16:9 content horizontally to 16:9 on a 2.35 or 2.40 screen with the Pro set to 2.35 or 2.40 output aspect.
> 
> I have been using the JVC 4k60 test disc at 4k60 into and out of the Radiance Pro. It looks excellent at 3840x2160 with the Radiance Pro output aspect set to 16:9, and 4096x1706 with the Radiance Pro output aspect set to 2.40, and source aspect selected as 16:9.
> 
> As this shows, the video processing is now in excellent shape. We are down to getting the deinterlacing working better with the new processing pipeline, other control bugs such as in the DRAM controller, and getting test patterns working.
> 
> Thanks for your patience while we fix these issues and get into the Alpha testing phase.


Great!! consider release kinda of beta version?


----------



## jrp

fanfan00000043 said:


> Great!! consider release kind a of beta version?


For those who missed a post from some time ago, the pipeline enhancement releases will be:

Alpha release: Emailed to a limited set of people who sign up and are willing to help through any issues with this major release.

Beta release: We will post a Beta release on our website once we have good feedback on Alpha release(s). This is for more technical customers who are willing to help us work through any issues not caught in the Alpha phase.

Production release: Once we believe the Beta release(s) are in good shape we will release the production version.


----------



## Sittler27

Geof said:


> Could it be that only select programs are shown in 1080p?


Will check. Quite possibly. But the ones in 1080i like all NFL games this weekend (at least the field shots) I could see the scan lines. Just adds to an element of detail loss when watching the games.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> No calibrator. Just me.
> 
> it’s weird because cable box is definitely set to 1080p.
> 
> it must be the NZ9 being sharper or something that is making me notice the deinterlacing lines more on certain content.
> never bothered me on my NX9.


Well, I'd assume that the cable box is fibbing from what your images seemed to indicate. I don't have any experience directly with them, so maybe someone who knows what box you have could give you some info. It doesn't take away from the issue you are seeing, it's just it is good to understand exactly what you are dealing with to try exploring solutions. If you wanted further confirmation of what the cable box is doing, you could try hooking it up to a TV or to the projector directly and seeing what that device's info screen says about the cable box output.

Without having any specific tips for that box, I'd try finding some of this content that you notice issues with and then playing with the deinterlacing options in the Lumagen to see if you can positively impact what you are seeing.

I find the better way to see what is going on with inputs and outputs from the Lumagen UI is from the info screen, which you can access just by hitting OK on the remote. It shows an unambiguous display of what is currently on the input and what the output is, along with some more detailed screens with tech details when you cycle through the UI.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Ilushka85 said:


> so what is the expected way that these var movies should be seen ?
> 
> I have a 2.4 screen with projector zoomed to it... what happens when it switches the image to 16x9 for this scene. Wouldn't it go outside the bounds of screen?


Since your screen is initially set for 2.4 the lumagen will convert the image into this area of the screen you have but with correct aspect ratio for 16x9 so in this screen you would have black bars ok the sides since your initial configuration is 2.4 but you are willing to watch 16x9. 

Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> For those who missed a post from some time ago, the pipeline enhancement releases will be:
> 
> Alpha release: Emailed to a limited set of people who sign up and are willing to help through any issues with this major release.
> 
> Beta release: We will post a Beta release on our website once we have good feedback on Alpha release(s). This is for more technical customers who are willing to help us work through any issues not caught in the Alpha phase.
> 
> Production release: Once we believe the Beta release(s) are in good shape we will release the production version.


I think that's a great idea. Have you released Beta versions on the general website before? Oppo used to do that with every firmware release. As long as the ability to go back to the prior firmware in case of issues exists we should be good. 
Just curious what the read/write lifetime is for the Xilinx FPGA and if you are at liberty to say which one is it?


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> For those who missed a post from some time ago, the pipeline enhancement releases will be:
> 
> Alpha release: Emailed to a limited set of people who sign up and are willing to help through any issues with this major release.
> 
> Beta release: We will post a Beta release on our website once we have good feedback on Alpha release(s). This is for more technical customers who are willing to help us work through any issues not caught in the Alpha phase.
> 
> Production release: Once we believe the Beta release(s) are in good shape we will release the production version.


Jim,



> *Production release:
> Once we believe the Beta release(s) are in good shape we will release the production version.*


Well buddy I'll just hang tight and wait for the *(Production) *^^^ release. 

Thanks for the update,
Terry
USA


----------



## dlinsley

Clark Burk said:


> Have you released Beta versions on the general website before?


See the firmware download page @ Lumagen. The first two years of my Pro ownership were Beta releases only


----------



## Clark Burk

dlinsley said:


> See the firmware download page @ Lumagen. The first two years of my Pro ownership were Beta releases only


 I never looked that far back . Almost 5 years ago. It’s good to see all the effort put into keeping the LRP at the top.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> I think that's a great idea. Have you released Beta versions on the general website before? Oppo used to do that with every firmware release. As long as the ability to go back to the prior firmware in case of issues exists we should be good.
> Just curious what the read/write lifetime is for the Xilinx FPGA and if you are at liberty to say which one is it?


[EDIT] I see now that Clark's question had already been answered but I will leave my answer as well:

Yes, we have always released as "Beta" to the website whenever we wanted less technical customers to hold off on updating.

Then we either replaced the "Beta" release with a newer production release, or changed the Beta designation to production (i.e. removed the word Beta from the release notes) if the release proved to be robust.


----------



## alv

Where do you get 4K/60 sources?


----------



## dlinsley

alv said:


> Where do you get 4K/60 sources?


I have to keep the AppleTV in 4k60 as the YouTubeTV app doesn't support rate match. With a 4k24 UI, that app shows TV at a jerky frame skipping 24Hz instead of automatically switching to the correct rate like all the other apps do.


----------



## 187crew003

can someone refresh my memory how to do the higher full panel output for 4k?


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

I assume you are referring to taking advantage of the 4096 x 2160 rather than 3840 x 2160 in the newer N series projectors to get more light output. That wouldn't apply to the 1920 x 1080 panel of the older RS / x series. There aren't any extra pixels in the older series.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Clark Burk said:


> Just curious what the read/write lifetime is for the Xilinx FPGA and if you are at liberty to say which one is it?


https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug116.pdf

Figure at least one million hours... About 114 years and that's probably with TJ=125 deg C.


----------



## 187crew003

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> I assume you are referring to taking advantage of the 4096 x 2160 rather than 3840 x 2160 in the newer N series projectors to get more light output. That wouldn't apply to the 1920 x 1080 panel of the older RS / x series. There aren't any extra pixels in the older series.


Oh I thought I read there was on the rs2000/3000. Thanks for the info. Good to know


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> Oh I thought I read there was on the rs2000/3000. Thanks for the info. Good to know


There is on the RS2000/30000. There isn't on the one listed in your signature.


----------



## OzHDHT

tigerhonaker said:


> Jim,
> 
> 
> 
> Well buddy I'll just hang tight and wait for the *(Production) *^^^ release.
> 
> Thanks for the update,
> Terry
> USA


No real surprise there Terry, I've never seen you as a 'alpha (or beta) testing' sort of guy  . Me I'm keen as mustard and looking forward to testing out both


----------



## aguy

I’ll be happy to use the beta. 

I expect Jim will keep the alpha group to a small set of well known people 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OzHDHT

aguy said:


> I expect Jim will keep the alpha group to a small set of well known people
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tthat's exactly what he's stated again one page back.


----------



## Craig Peer

OzHDHT said:


> No real surprise there Terry, I've never seen you as a 'alpha (or beta) testing' sort of guy  . Me I'm keen as mustard and looking forward to testing out both


And it’s been a while since there’s been a firmware update - going to be exciting to get this next one!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tigerhonaker

> tigerhonaker said:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Well buddy I'll just hang tight and wait for the *(Production) *^^^ release.
> 
> Thanks for the update,
> Terry
> USA





OzHDHT said:


> No real surprise there Terry, I've never seen you as a 'alpha (or beta) testing' sort of guy  . Me I'm keen as mustard and looking forward to testing out both


OzHDHT,

You definitely have me pegged 100% correctly. 
No Beta tester here on this end that's for sure.

LOL,
Terry


----------



## riddle

Hi, what is the best fw for JVC NZ series if i will want use it with my Lumagen Radiance PRO?
Thank you


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> Hi, what is the best fw for JVC NZ series if i will want use it with my Lumagen Radiance PRO?
> Thank you


use the shipping fw. If you start seeing a random single frame glitch then reach out to Lumagen and they’ll send you a link.


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> There is on the RS2000/30000. There isn't on the one listed in your signature.


Yes the rs600 is mine. I was talking to one of my online friends who has a rs2000 and remembered reading about this here so figured I’d ask

so how would you do it on the lumagen? For the rs20000 Does there need to be additional masking for 2.4 screens? Does it effect the NLS settings? I’m curious how this all works.


----------



## Bill DePalma

187crew003 said:


> Yes the rs600 is mine. I was talking to one of my online friends who has a rs2000 and remembered reading about this here so figured I’d ask
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


----------



## 187crew003

Ooh thanks I’ll pass that link along! Appreciated

another question. This time for me. Since the lumagen is set to my total light output (inuse low lamp for uhd movies ) is there any benefit to using high lamp mode in the rs600 and adjusting the light output settings in the lumagen? Or is it 6 in one hand half dozen in the other

thanks.


----------



## Kurvenal

Kris Deering said:


> More fun, I decided to check out the official AppleTV owners thread today. The entire last page is people talking about various audio drop outs in different content and trying to figure out how to eliminate it. None of them are using Lumagen products. As I mentioned before, all the audio dropouts I've had over the last couple months (maybe 2-3 at most) have bene while watching content from an AppleTV. I can't remember the last time I got one from my Strato and I honestly don't know if I've EVER had one from my Oppo. I know the Strato was giving me some fits for awhile with DTS, but that was a Trinnov issue. They sent me some beta firmware that eliminated that for the most part, I think I've had maybe one or two DTS drops since then (can't remember it has been so long).


I have been checking out Apple Music’s spatial audio (Apple’s branding for Dolby Atmos music) on my ATV which I run through my Lumagen to my audio processor. Since I am just listening to music, I often turn off the projector so I am only using the Lumagen audio output. 

I recently contacted Apple support because I was occasionally getting some distortion, and after I gave them my system setup details and a diagnostics log, their engineering team came back and told me that I should be using HDMI 2.1 cables rated for 48GHz, even for audio playback only. I was a bit mystified by this advice so wanted to share it here to get some comments, particularly given the issues with edge rates on 48GHz cables that @jrp has posted about. 

If this becomes standard Apple troubleshooting advice for using the ATV, then will this potentially create problems for Lumagen users? 

Thoughts?


----------



## jrp

Kurvenal said:


> ... I recently contacted Apple support because I was occasionally getting some distortion, and after I gave them my system setup details and a diagnostics log, their engineering team came back and told me that I should be using HDMI 2.1 cables rated for 48GHz, even for audio playback only. I was a bit mystified by this advice so wanted to share it here to get some comments, particularly given the issues with edge rates on 48GHz cables that @jrp has posted about.
> 
> If this becomes standard Apple troubleshooting advice for using the ATV, then will this potentially create problems for Lumagen users?
> 
> Thoughts?


My comments on 48 GHz cables were directed at active HDMI cables. As I have said it is the edge rate that matters most. Active 48 GHz cables can potentially increase edge rates and so increase HDMI bit error rate (BER).

Unlike active cables, passive HDMI cable will not speed up edge rates. So 48 GHz passive cables can be used in 18 GHz systems. For passives I'm recommend 3 meter as the optimal length, for _both_ 18 GHz certified and 48 GHz certified passive cables in an 18 GHz system. I have actually started to sell passive Tributaries 48 GHz UHDM 3-meter cables to customers who are asking for them. So far there are no reports of issues with these cables. Not enough data yet to make firm statements, but so far they are working well in the handful of systems using them that I know about.

One factor that may be improved using a 48 GHz passive cable is that they must have smaller transmission line discontinuities at the plug ends to be able to pass 12 GHz per differential pair, versus 6 GHz for 18 GHz connections. This in turn would mean a cleaner signal at the receiver, with a more open "eye diagram," and so a lower BER. A lower BER would help insure the elimination of audio dropouts.

So, I am okay using a 48 GHz _passive_ HDMI cable in an 18 GHz system as long as it is 3-meters. Note that 2-meters may work, but I recommend 3-meters.


----------



## mikero

New lumagen user here 4242. I do have occasional video drop outs on my system - screen goes dark for few seconds - with audio continues on.
Lumagen connected between denon 8500 and projector.
Streaming from ATV. Ouput on lumagen set to 4:2:2 sdr, 4k. Input depends on content - either 4:4 4 for sdr or 4:2:2 for hdr. Last dropout was on netflix witcher.

Any ideas? 
Never happened without lumagen - if connect same cables bypassing it


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

mikero said:


> New lumagen user here 4242. I do have occasional video drop outs on my system - screen goes dark for few seconds - with audio continues on.
> Lumagen connected between denon 8500 and projector.
> Streaming from ATV. Ouput on lumagen set to 4:2:2 sdr, 4k. Input depends on content - either 4:4 4 for sdr or 4:2:2 for hdr. Last dropout was on netflix witcher.
> 
> Any ideas?
> Never happened without lumagen - if connect same cables bypassing it


I setup a new lumagen with a Denon 8500 in the mix. However I ran all the inputs into the lumagen then only audio out to denon and video straight to the display from lumagen.


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> My comments on 48 GHz cables were directed at active HDMI cables. As I have said it is the edge rate that matters most. Active 48 GHz cables can potentially increase edge rates and so increase HDMI bit error rate (BER).
> 
> Unlike active cables, passive HDMI cable will not speed up edge rates. So 48 GHz passive cables can be used in 18 GHz systems. For passives I'm recommend 3 meter as the optimal length, for _both_ 18 GHz certified and 48 GHz certified passive cables in an 18 GHz system. I have actually started to sell passive Tributaries 48 GHz UHDM 3-meter cables to customers who are asking for them. So far there are no reports of issues with these cables. Not enough data yet to make firm statements, but so far they are working well in the handful of systems using them that I know about.
> 
> One factor that may be improved using a 48 GHz passive cable is that they must have smaller transmission line discontinuities at the plug ends to be able to pass 12 GHz per differential pair, versus 6 GHz for 18 GHz connections. This in turn would mean a cleaner signal at the receiver, with a more open "eye diagram," and so a lower BER. A lower BER would help insure the elimination of audio dropouts.
> 
> So, I am okay using a 48 GHz _passive_ HDMI cable in an 18 GHz system as long as it is 3-meters. Note that 2-meters may work, but I recommend 3-meters.


This is a bit of a turnaround from what you were saying earlier unless I misunderstood. It seemed like you were against 48 Ghz cables, even passive ones, being used with the LRP. Now it sounds like the 48 Ghz cables may even have some benefit over the 18 Ghz cables in use.
So is it safe to say get passive cables in the 3 meter lengths that have good construction that are either Ultra high speed certified or high speed certified and you are good to go?


----------



## MDesigns

Clark Burk said:


> This is a bit of a turnaround from what you were saying earlier unless I misunderstood. It seemed like you were against 48 Ghz cables, even passive ones, being used with the LRP. Now it sounds like the 48 Ghz cables may even have some benefit over the 18 Ghz cables in use.
> So is it safe to say get passive cables in the 3 meter lengths that have good construction that are either Ultra high speed certified or high speed certified and you are good to go?


That is what I originally thought, but he never clarified.


MDesigns said:


> IMO passive cables can not have any affect to make edge rates faster or slower. I think @jrp must mean the longer active copper or fiber cables.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

What Jim posted from the Lumagen Radiance Pro Dealer manual.....note the section where he says 48GHz passive cables can work but they may need to be longer...hence his suggestion that they should defo be 3m long if you are going to try them.

HDMI cables can make or break the installation
Radiance Pro outputs have fast 4k edge rates, and cable equalisation.
Due to transmission line physics, it is edge rate, not data rate, that is the primary factor in required cable quality
Passive HDMI cables should be at least 2 meters long and no more than 5 meters long, with 3 meter often the optimal length for cable attenuation
All HDMI cables should be 18 GHz Certified. Passive 48 GHz HDMI cables can work, but you may need them to be longer to have the appropriate amount of attenuation
Avoid Baluns at 4k. We have reports of issues with these (including systems without a Radiance Pro)
Avoid using active cables on source outputs as often sources do not have enough HDMI Output Standby Power to reliably drive active cables
Avoid“8k active cables” for 4k systems to work at 48GHz they need to have faster edge rates, which can cause issues in an 18 GHz system


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> This is a bit of a turnaround from what you were saying earlier unless I misunderstood. It seemed like you were against 48 Ghz cables, even passive ones, being used with the LRP. Now it sounds like the 48 Ghz cables may even have some benefit over the 18 Ghz cables in use.
> So is it safe to say get passive cables in the 3 meter lengths that have good construction that are either Ultra high speed certified or high speed certified and you are good to go?


Actually, not a turn around at all. Same story for active. Same story for passive.

I was discussing the fact that 48 GHz passive cables would have less attenuation than 18 GHz per length, and at that time I did not then have enough feedback on how this would affect systems. So, my post was cautioning people to be aware, but it was not saying 48 GHz passive cables could not be used.

You could infer that I was saying 18 GHz Certified passive cables should be excellent for 18 GHz systems, which is true.

Overall what I was trying to say in my previous posts on the subject, and in this post, is that while the 48 GHz passives do likely have less attenuation than 18 GHz, the right length should work. The only difference now is I have more feedback on 48 GHz passives, and that indeed 3-meter length is proving to be an optimal length.

====

Even for 48 GHz active cables, I did mention some were using them successfully in 18 GHz systems, but I was warning that some have had to swap out the 48 GHz active cable for a 18 GHz to get reliable results. So I did not put a complete prohibition on 48 GHz active cables, but instead was trying to suggest that if not yet purchased, buying 18 GHz active cables might well prove a better choice for an 18 GHz system.


----------



## Geof

mikero said:


> New lumagen user here 4242. I do have occasional video drop outs on my system - screen goes dark for few seconds - with audio continues on.
> Lumagen connected between denon 8500 and projector.
> Streaming from ATV. Ouput on lumagen set to 4:2:2 sdr, 4k. Input depends on content - either 4:4 4 for sdr or 4:2:2 for hdr. Last dropout was on netflix witcher.
> 
> Any ideas?
> Never happened without lumagen - if connect same cables bypassing it


I have an ATV connected to an 18GHz input on my 4242 and it had dropouts with a 3m cable. I then installed a 4m cable and have not had any issues since (even with 4K60 Dolby Atmos)....(knock on wood).


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> Actually, not a turn around at all. Same story for active. Same story for passive.
> 
> I was discussing the fact that 48 GHz passive cables would have less attenuation than 18 GHz per length, and at that time I did not then have enough feedback on how this would affect systems. So, my post was cautioning people to be aware, but it was not saying 48 GHz passive cables could not be used.
> 
> You could infer that I was saying 18 GHz Certified passive cables should be excellent for 18 GHz systems, which is true.
> 
> Overall what I was trying to say in my previous posts on the subject, and in this post, is that while the 48 GHz passives do likely have less attenuation than 18 GHz, the right length should work. The only difference now is I have more feedback on 48 GHz passives, and that indeed 3-meter length is proving to be an optimal length.
> 
> ====
> 
> Even for 48 GHz active cables, I did mention some were using them successfully in 18 GHz systems, but I was warning that some have had to swap out the 48 GHz active cable for a 18 GHz to get reliable results. So I did not put a complete prohibition on 48 GHz active cables, but instead was trying to suggest that if not yet purchased, buying 18 GHz active cables might well prove a better choice for an 18 GHz system.


Does Lumagen have any control on the pre-emphasis (or de-emphasis if that be the case) setting on the 18GHz HDMI receivers?
I was also curious what actually 'breaks' when a dropout occurs....is it edid/HDCP related or one of the video channels? Reflections?


----------



## Javs

nevermind.


----------



## mikero

Geof said:


> I have an ATV connected to an 18GHz input on my 4242 and it had dropouts with a 3m cable. I then installed a 4m cable and have not had any issues since (even with 4K60 Dolby Atmos)....(knock on wood).


I could try different cable - but I don't think that it is related to cable between atv & lumagen - since when blackout happening - I'm trying to show info menu on lumagen - it is not showing as well - it's more like cable between lumagen and projector - or something happening with lumagen processing - and it hangs up for a bit


----------



## jrp

Geof said:


> ...
> I was also curious what actually 'breaks' when a dropout occurs....is it edid/HDCP related or one of the video channels? Reflections?


These are not EDID or HDCP related, but instead related to the physical HDMI signals.

For video, dropouts are generally due to an excessive bit error rate (BER). High BER in general comes from the signal "eye diagram" collapsing due to reflections and other transmission-line signal aberrations.

I have a number of posts where I discuss the physics of HDMI, and how every connection is a "system." This varies by source, and by sink (projector input, AVR input). No chip manufacturer specifies their EQ, and this varies between chip manufacturers. So, every system is unique. The solution most often comes down to a better, or longer, HDMI cable.

There are two main considerations for an HDMI cable:

Attenuation: HDMI outputs and inputs have equalization to compensate for longer cables. A passive cable must have an appropriate amount of attenuation to match the equalization on the source and the sink. The attenuation reduces the edge rate as the cable is longer, making it easier for the receiver to capture the signal. The amount of attenuation needed is affected by the cable's signal quality.

Signal quality: All HDMI cables have "transmission line discontinuities." The example I use for this is a 1 by 20 oscillating wave trough. The wave pattern is disturbed as you throw more rocks in the wave trough. Discontinuities in the transmission line have a similar effect on the HDMI signal quality. Cables designed for higher rates must have better signal quality, and so smaller transmission line discontinuities.

In the recent post where Apple recommended 48 GHz passive cables for the AppleTV 4k, they did so to improve the signal quality, and reduce signal reflections in the cable, versus an 18 GHz cable. This in turn gave more of the HDMI "margin budget" to the sink input. Up until recently this has not been an available option. So, for the past 15 years I have recommended longer (but not too long) passive cables to increase signal attenuation.

Both approach's are valid, and used together may well provide the optimal cable solution. By using a 3-meter 48 GHz cable, people are taking advantage of both factors discussed above.


----------



## Karl Maga

Javs said:


> nevermind.


Trolling?


----------



## Javs

Karl Maga said:


> Trolling?


Why would you assume I was trolling?

But since you asked, I was actually pointing out that HDMI should not be referred to as Ghz, its Gbit.


----------



## Killroy

Javs said:


> Why would you assume I was trolling?
> 
> But since you asked, I was actually pointing out that HDMI should not be referred to as Ghz, its Gbit.


I’ve been tilling at that windmill for almost two decades. It’s right up there with the difference between burglary and robbery.


----------



## jrp

Geof said:


> Does Lumagen have any control on the pre-emphasis (or de-emphasis if that be the case) setting on the 18GHz HDMI receivers?
> ...


I answered the second question from Geof's post, but not the first. Here is the answer to the first question:

The Radiance Pro HDMI input chips do not have any form of control. However, they are very robust. As an indication of this, I have tested 18 GHz using an 8 meter passive cable out of a Panasonic Bluray player and it works fine with the Pro input. I then took that same cable and tested two different 18 GHz TVs and they never got a picture.

The Radiance Pro 4XXX units do not have any output controls. However, the Radiance Pro 5XXX series does have a control for the output level (approximately +-20% from standard), and for output-EQ enable. By default the 5XXX units output the standard HDMI output level, but without any output EQ. This is because I designed it with active HDMI fiber cables, and modest length passive HDMI cables (2 to 3 meters), in mind. Some active fiber cables do not have the appropriate amount of input-buffer attenuation to deal with EQ from an HDMI output, given they are right at the output connector. So I left output EQ off for the default setting.

If you have a Radiance Pro 5XXX unit and want the information on how to set the output level, please email lumagen.com support and ask. We plan to add this information to the manual.


----------



## Karl Maga

Javs said:


> Why would you assume I was trolling?
> 
> But since you asked, I was actually pointing out that HDMI should not be referred to as Ghz, its Gbit.


Because I've read more than a couple derogatory comments from you directed at the Lumagen Radiance Pro, and you are a well-established apologist for another video processor.

I'm not sure why you are in this thread given that in 2021 you said, "you couldn't give me a Lumagen Radiance Pro". You know, just vague things like that.


----------



## Javs

Karl Maga said:


> Because I've read more than a couple derogatory comments from you directed at the Lumagen Radiance Pro, and you are a well-established apologist for another video processor.
> 
> I'm not sure why you are in this thread given that in 2021 you said, "you couldn't give me a Lumagen Radiance Pro". You know, just vague things like that.





> *you couldn't give me a Lumagen Radiance Pro*


What, is that it? You got nothing else? By the way I am not even talking about that today, I just find it funny how its referred to as GHz here by several people when talking about HDMI, its just wrong, its also wrong on a lot of actual HDMI cable adverts on google, Ive read it more than a dozen times here so I just had to say something.

I read lots of threads, it would be great if you dont just assume I am here to troll and act towards me in a manner than I am not welcome in this thread. It's funny you accuse me of trolling without even knowing the post that was there which is hilariously the very definition of trolling itself! (deliberate provocation; did you think I wasn't going to respond?) I read a lot of controversial comments from you too, usually unwelcoming type posts towards the individual themselves.

To reiterate, I would not buy either a Lumagen *or* an Envy, they are both far too expensive IMO. If I said you could not give me a lumagen in the past I probably meant it in the sense that I would not use it for my particular setup so its pointless to me, hardly derogatory though just a personal opinion the really funny thing I have even said that about certain JVC's recently.

So, do you have anything to say in relation to my actual comment about HDMI now that I clarified its original content, or are you going to continue to act in a manner unwelcoming to a forum member reading a thread of which I am entirely within my right to do, and brace for it, comment in said thread if I wish without reprimand from yourself?


----------



## Karl Maga

Javs said:


> What, is that it? You got nothing else? By the way I am not even talking about that today, I just find it funny how its referred to as GHz here by several people when talking about HDMI, its just wrong, its also wrong on a lot of actual HDMI cable adverts on google, Ive read it more than a dozen times here so I just had to say something.
> 
> I read lots of threads, it would be great if you dont just assume I am here to troll and act towards me in a manner than I am not welcome in this thread. It's funny you accuse me of trolling without even knowing the post that was there which is hilariously the very definition of trolling itself! (deliberate provocation; did you think I wasn't going to respond?) I read a lot of controversial comments from you too, usually unwelcoming type posts towards the individual themselves.
> 
> To reiterate, I would not buy either a Lumagen *or* an Envy, they are both far too expensive IMO. If I said you could not give me a lumagen in the past I probably meant it in the sense that I would not use it for my particular setup so its pointless to me, hardly derogatory though just a personal opinion the really funny thing I have even said that about certain JVC's recently.
> 
> So, do you have anything to say in relation to my actual comment about HDMI now that I clarified its original content, or are you going to continue to act in a manner unwelcoming to a forum member reading a thread of which I am entirely within my right to do, and brace for it, comment in said thread if I wish without reprimand from yourself?


You are certainly knowledgeable about video and imaging, and I'm nobody to be saying who is or isn't welcome in any thread. But I read people well, and I've been reading your posts for years, and based upon that I'd say your participation in this thread has more likelihood to be useful than mine. But, it is also the basis for my assumption.


----------



## Javs

Karl Maga said:


> You are certainly knowledgeable about video and imaging, and I'm nobody to be saying who is or isn't welcome in any thread. But I read people well, and I've been reading your posts for years, and based upon that I'd say your participation in this thread has more likelihood to be useful than mine. But, it is also the basis for my assumption.


If you read people well and automatically assume I am trolling then I would say you are not reading people too well.

Do this, go back and read my last 200 posts and tell me if you see a troll.

Then go and read Joerods last 50 posts, do you see a troll there?

That is the difference.


----------



## Javs

As it happens it looks like I will have a Lumagen on the way to me in order to be able to carry out an in depth analysis, capture lots of data including real image captures from the Lumagen output, and will be doing the same with an Envy and MadVR PC and will be able to post comparisons on all 3.

Kris will be helping me make sure the Lumagen is putting out a correct image and the most optimal settings, and I stress that anything I find will be run past him first to ensure its an accurate depiction, I will be waiting on the pipeline firmware update, and I am very interested to see what this is doing with regards to DTM, Up-scaling and down-scaling, those are the 3 things I am most interested it, and will be capturing examples from all three video solutions for comparative purposes, I will be posting all this in the VP Comparison thread when the time comes.

My intention here for those that know me is truly honest and thats why I actually prefer to post the examples to the forum and even video capture since I recall reading that DTM stops working when you pause on the Lumagen. So if done right, any potential bias shouldnt even factor into it since the exercise would be theoretically repeatable by anybody with the same gear.


----------



## Karl Maga

Javs said:


> If you read people well and automatically assume I am trolling then I would say you are not reading people too well.
> 
> Do this, go back and read my last 200 posts and tell me if you see a troll.
> 
> Then go and read Joerods last 50 posts, do you see a troll there?
> 
> That is the difference.


Fair enough, I've never perceived you as a troll. If I was wrong, then an apology is warranted, and I offer it.


----------



## Javs

Karl Maga said:


> Fair enough, I've never perceived you as a troll. If I was wrong, then an apology is warranted, and I offer it.


No probs, all I wanted to say is HDMI is Gigabit, and not Gigahertz 

I actually foresaw exactly what ended up taking place so ended up deleting it... but such is life that what I thought would happen ended up happening anyway lol.


----------



## aguy

Javs said:


> As it happens it looks like I will have a Lumagen on the way to me in order to be able to carry out an in depth analysis, capture lots of data including real image captures from the Lumagen output, and will be doing the same with an Envy and MadVR PC.
> 
> Kris will be helping me make sure the Lumagen is putting out a correct image and the most optimal settings, and I stress that anyhthing I find will be run past him first to ensure its an accurate depiction, I will be waiting on the pipeline firmware update, and I am very interested to see what this is doing with regards to DTM, Upscaling and downscaling, those are the 3 things I am most interested it, and will be capturing examples from all three video solutions for comparative purposes, I will be posting all this in the VP Comparison thread when the time comes.


If you’re going to do a detailed analysis and comparison with Kris assistance too maybe Jim would be able to include you in the alpha release of the new pipeline as is sounds like that will significantly impact your measurements. Especially for 4k50 and 60. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

aguy said:


> If you’re going to do a detailed analysis and comparison with Kris assistance too maybe Jim would be able to include you in the alpha release of the new pipeline as is sounds like that will significantly impact your measurements. Especially for 4k50 and 60.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mention that in my post, ive already conversed with Kris, and its more than likely that the proper pipeline release will be done by the time I carry out this analysis. I was already aware of it coming and had said to Kris that there is no point until its done anyway.

I will say that I am not at all looking at 4k60p though thats because the video capture card I will be using will only support up to 4k/30p, I will be testing 4k/23.98p up to 4:4:4.


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> These are not EDID or HDCP related, but instead related to the physical HDMI signals.
> 
> For video, dropouts are generally due to an excessive bit error rate (BER). High BER in general comes from the signal "eye diagram" collapsing due to reflections and other transmission-line signal aberrations.
> 
> I have a number of posts where I discuss the physics of HDMI, and how every connection is a "system." This varies by source, and by sink (projector input, AVR input). No chip manufacturer specifies their EQ, and this varies between chip manufacturers. So, every system is unique. The solution most often comes down to a better, or longer, HDMI cable.
> 
> There are two main considerations for an HDMI cable:
> 
> Attenuation: HDMI outputs and inputs have equalization to compensate for longer cables. A passive cable must have an appropriate amount of attenuation to match the equalization on the source and the sink. The attenuation reduces the edge rate as the cable is longer, making it easier for the receiver to capture the signal. The amount of attenuation needed is affected by the cable's signal quality.
> 
> Signal quality: All HDMI cables have "transmission line discontinuities." The example I use for this is a 1 by 20 oscillating wave trough. The wave pattern is disturbed as you throw more rocks in the wave trough. Discontinuities in the transmission line have a similar effect on the HDMI signal quality. Cables designed for higher rates must have better signal quality, and so smaller transmission line discontinuities.
> 
> In the recent post where Apple recommended 48 GHz passive cables for the AppleTV 4k, they did so to improve the signal quality, and reduce signal reflections in the cable, versus an 18 GHz cable. This in turn gave more of the HDMI "margin budget" to the sink input. Up until recently this has not been an available option. So, for the past 15 years I have recommended longer (but not too long) passive cables to increase signal attenuation.
> 
> Both approach's are valid, and used together may well provide the optimal cable solution. By using a 3-meter 48 GHz cable, people are taking advantage of both factors discussed above.


 for the informative reply. I didn't think it was EDID or HDCP related but wanted to verify. Everything else you mention makes sense....thanks!


----------



## Chicagobear1

Javs said:


> As it happens it looks like I will have a Lumagen on the way to me in order to be able to carry out an in depth analysis, capture lots of data including real image captures from the Lumagen output, and will be doing the same with an Envy and MadVR PC and will be able to post comparisons on all 3.
> 
> Kris will be helping me make sure the Lumagen is putting out a correct image and the most optimal settings, and I stress that anything I find will be run past him first to ensure its an accurate depiction, I will be waiting on the pipeline firmware update, and I am very interested to see what this is doing with regards to DTM, Up-scaling and down-scaling, those are the 3 things I am most interested it, and will be capturing examples from all three video solutions for comparative purposes, I will be posting all this in the VP Comparison thread when the time comes.
> 
> My intention here for those that know me is truly honest and thats why I actually prefer to post the examples to the forum and even video capture since I recall reading that DTM stops working when you pause on the Lumagen. So if done right, any potential bias shouldnt even factor into it since the exercise would be theoretically repeatable by anybody with the same gear.


That will be interesting to hear your findings i found the lumagen DTM and scaling better than the madVR Envy extreme. The problem i had the Lumagen wasn't setup correctly. Once i got help on that front Lumagen was the clear winner and that was without the upcoming pipeline enhancements. I just found the DTM looked more natural and detailed. The same with the scaling bluray content. I never compared the deinterlacing. I believe Lumagen has improvements plans for that in the future. Both products looked really good the pro had the edge for me. When both products are setup correctly


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> 18 GHz Certified passive cables





Javs said:


> No probs, all I wanted to say is HDMI is Gigabit, and not Gigahertz


I'm glad this came up actually, as the terminology has always confused me. I know Gbps is a measure of throughput and GHz is a measure of frequency. But I've always been confused about which of these two terms (or both) apply to HDMI?


----------



## MDesigns

fatherom said:


> I'm glad this came up actually, as the terminology has always confused me. I know Gbps is a measure of throughput and GHz is a measure of frequency. But I've always been confused about which of these two terms (or both) apply to HDMI?


*Gbps* is the only correct one. I don't know why Lumagen uses *GHz* in all the materials also.






HDMI 2.1a Specification Overview


HDMI 2.1a technology enables end-to-end 8K & 4K solutions, faster refresh rates, and Dynamic HDR support. ✓ Click here to learn more about HDMI 2.1a




www.hdmi.org


----------



## Nima

I read somewhere in this thread that one could activate 12 bit for the 1D LUT? Where do I do that and what is the benefit? I am using ColourSpace.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Nima said:


> I read somewhere in this thread that one could activate 12 bit for the 1D LUT? Where do I do that and what is the benefit? I am using ColourSpace.


If that's the case would you not need a 12 bit panel or 12 bit projector to get the benefits of 12 bit 1D LUT. I might be wrong


----------



## docrog

Am I correct that there was a recent posting by @jrp which suggested that the upcoming update would include improvement of 1080i -> UHD upscaling (16:9 AR)? I can only seem to locate a post which states that there is to be expected improvement of 1080i 50/60, but it does not specifically indicate improvement in upscaling..........


----------



## NxNW

MDesigns said:


> *Gbps* is the only correct one. I don't know why Lumagen uses *GHz* in all the materials also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HDMI 2.1a Specification Overview
> 
> 
> HDMI 2.1a technology enables end-to-end 8K & 4K solutions, faster refresh rates, and Dynamic HDR support. ✓ Click here to learn more about HDMI 2.1a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hdmi.org


Yes, but they're related.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon–Hartley_theorem

The data throughput capacity of a cable is related to which frequencies of electromagnetic waves can reliably be transmitted through it. Higher frequencies allow faster data speeds.


----------



## fatherom

NxNW said:


> Yes, but they're related.
> 
> See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon–Hartley_theorem
> 
> The data throughput capacity of a cable is related to which frequencies of electromagnetic waves can reliably be transmitted through it. Higher frequencies allow faster data speeds.


Right, but I don't think there's a 1:1 correlation...found this online (don't know if it's accurate):

_HDMI_ 2.1 achieves 48 Gbit/s bandwidth by doubling the signaling frequency to 12 _GHz_ (compared to 6 _GHz_ in _HDMI_ 2.0)


----------



## Javs

Find Ghz anywhere on this page, you cannot because its the wrong way to describe HDMI, period.

hzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Gbps or Gbit is the only correct way to describe HDMI spec speeds.

HDMI 2.0 used a 600mhz TDMS clock rate, and HDMI 1.4 used a 340mhz clock rate, thats the only time we should be referring to MHz let alone Ghz other than describing the specific refresh rate of the display..


----------



## dlinsley

Nima said:


> I read somewhere in this thread that one could activate 12 bit for the 1D LUT? Where do I do that and what is the benefit? I am using ColourSpace.


It's on the firmware page at Lumagen. The manual doesn't seem to be updated yet:



> *042120- Posted 050120 *Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under _Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points_ ) as well as with rs232 commands. See updated Tech Tip 11 for the rs232 commands. Added external trigger setting for input aspect > 1.95 (only available on units with this option installed). Small improvement for interlaced auto aspect detection.





Chicagobear1 said:


> If that's the case would you not need a 12 bit panel or 12 bit projector to get the benefits of 12 bit 1D LUT. I might be wrong


Presumably it helps keep precision throughout the rest of the pipeline (just like the upcoming change), but I recall JVC in 2015 saying that the then new RS4/5/600 series was 12-bit from input all the way through the panel.


----------



## DigitalAV

Javs said:


> Find Ghz anywhere on this page, you cannot because its the wrong way to describe HDMI, period.
> 
> hzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
> 
> Gbps or Gbit is the only correct way to describe HDMI spec speeds.
> 
> HDMI 2.0 used a 600mhz TDMS clock rate, and HDMI 1.4 used a 340mhz clock rate, thats the only time we should be referring to MHz let alone Ghz other than describing the specific refresh rate of the display..


Maybe it's cables versus jacks? Let the engineer explain!


----------



## NxNW

Let's say you are in charge of building smooth roads. You have an objective way of measuring smoothness, let's say it's measured in 'gigahertz'. High gigahertz roads can allow cars to go very fast.

But the speed limit signs say 'miles per hour'! Why?

Road builder doesnt care. He just knows if you have a low gigahertz (bumpy) road there just no way anyone will drive a high number of "miles per hour" on it.

Copper wires are a physical medium, dumb like a river. They don't know what you are trying to do with them.

Sending bits back and forth is a sophisticated symbolic activity involving coded communication between parties. Both sides need to agree on what a "bit" even _looks like_ before they can decide on how fast they can send them.

A bit is an event. It signifies the arrival of information. Both sides need to agree on what _physical phenomena_ qualify as 'information' and what is noise.

For HDMI (and Ethernet and all forms of supposedly digital communication) it involves detecting the arrival of electromagnetic waves.

The highest frequency you can detect sets the limit of the highest rate at which you can agree on the arrival of bits of information.

The HDMI spec does not care about how you do it, they just specify bit speeds and let everyone else work it out the physical details necessary to achieve it. 

Makers of cables (and yes, jacks) and HDMI interface controllers and any other physical things involved in attempting HDMI are keenly aware of what frequencies are needed to be able to achieve this spec.


----------



## fatherom

NxNW said:


> Let's say you are in charge of building smooth roads. You have an objective way of measuring smoothness, let's say it's measured in 'gigahertz'. High gigahertz roads can allow cars to go very fast.
> 
> But the speed limit signs say 'miles per hour'! Why?
> 
> Road builder doesnt care. He just knows if you have a low gigahertz (bumpy) road there just no way anyone will drive a high number of "miles per hour" on it.
> 
> Copper wires are a physical medium, dumb like a river. They don't know what you are trying to do with them.
> 
> Sending bits back and forth is a sophisticated symbolic activity involving coded communication between parties. Both sides need to agree on what a "bit" even _looks like_ before they can decide on how fast they can send them.
> 
> A bit is an event. It signifies the arrival of information. Both sides need to agree on what _physical phenomena_ qualify as 'information' and what is noise.
> 
> For HDMI (and Ethernet and all forms of supposedly digital communication) it involves detecting the arrival of electromagnetic waves.
> 
> The highest frequency you can detect sets the limit of the highest rate at which you can agree on the arrival of bits of information.
> 
> The HDMI spec does not care about how you do it, they just specify bit speeds and let everyone else work it out the physical details necessary to achieve it.
> 
> Makers of cables (and yes, jacks) and HDMI interface controllers and any other physical things involved in attempting HDMI are keenly aware of what frequencies are needed to be able to achieve this spec.


Understood, but what frequency is needed to achieve 18Gbps of bandwidth?


----------



## garyolearysteele

😂 guys, seriously, it’s a typo. “18Ghz” doesn’t make any sense, anyone who said it meant “18Gbps”. Id imagine it’s because those that made the error are so often using g/mhz that it’s almost muscle memory when typing.


----------



## woofer

garyolearysteele said:


> 😂 guys, seriously, it’s a typo. “18Ghz” doesn’t make any sense, anyone who said it meant “18Gbps”. Id imagine it’s because those that made the error are so often using g/mhz that it’s almost muscle memory when typing.


----------



## garyolearysteele

Lol, yeah seems to be a really persistent typo 😂 but typo it must be


----------



## MDesigns

@NxNW 


Javs said:


> Find Ghz anywhere on this page, you cannot because its the wrong way to describe HDMI, period.
> 
> hzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
> 
> Gbps or Gbit is the only correct way to describe HDMI spec speeds.
> 
> HDMI 2.0 used a 600mhz TDMS clock rate, and HDMI 1.4 used a 340mhz clock rate, thats the only time we should be referring to MHz let alone Ghz other than describing the specific refresh rate of the display..


TMDS clock is 1/10th of HDMI data line frequency, so dataline max frequency is 6GHz for HDMI 2.0 and 3.4GHz for HDMI 1.4.

HDMI 2.1 switches to emdedded clock signal and uses the now free line as a fourth data line.


fatherom said:


> Understood, but what frequency is needed to achieve 18Gbps of bandwidth?


HDMI 2.0 uses max *6GHz* frequency with 3 datalines to deliver 3 x 6Gbps = 18Gbps of data.

HDMI 2.1 uses max *12GHz* frequency with 4 datalines to deliver 4 x 12Gbps = 48Gbps of data.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

😂😂😂😂😂 bad day at the office. They won’t be the first or the last to make such a mistake.

Reminds me of Spinal Tap


----------



## garyolearysteele

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> 😂😂😂😂😂 bad day at the office. They won’t be the first or the last to make such a mistake.
> 
> Reminds me of Spinal Tap
> 
> View attachment 3228659


 Hahahah but this HDMI port goes up to 11 😉


----------



## jrp

I have debated with myself if I should wade in with additional information, and extend a rather moot discussion on GHz versus G bps, or not. I imagine I will regret spending time on this, but oh well. Here goes:

====

First I will say I am perfectly fine saying 18 G bps. People understand what is meant. However, people also understand what is meant by 18 GHz, since it is in common usage. One major thing about the English language is the meaning of words adapt and change over time to include more than their original meaning.

From the Britannica.com definition of Hertz: ... The frequency of any phenomenon with regular periodic variations can be expressed in hertz.... In this case the phenomenon are "data bits."

I think the error people make is assuming the 18 GHz is referring to the "clock rate" when it is in fact referring to the bit rate for HDMI. If you said "it has an 18 GHz clock rate" you would in fact be wrong. However, the intended meaning is the "bits are transferred at the rate of 18 G per second." Yes, I understand Hertz historically has referred to "cycles-per-second," but as the above definition from britannica.com says, it is _not_ limited to this.

HDMI encodes 8 bits of data into "10-bit Non-Return-to-Zero" (NRZ) format. So, if we wanted to get technical, only (8/10)*18 G bps of data is transferred. So if your preferred nomenclature is 18 G bps, it really should be 14.4 G bps of actual data bits are transferred. Only the carrier is 18 G bps. On top of this the clock rate is not exactly 18 GHz. Please understand that I think both these points are minor. I include them only for context.

Where the 18 GHz comes from is not the "clock rate" (normally measured from positive clock to positive clock), but instead is the "number of possible edges per second." In a typical system with one bit, it is one-bit-per-clock-cycle. In the NRZ encoding each edge (positive or negative) conveys information. Said another way if we define "Hertz" as the time it takes to convey "one bit of information" per the dictionary definition above, then in this case it is one-half the underlying "clock cycle time." So, it is not the number of positive edges, but rather the number of possible edges (not all happen) that defines the reason for calling it 18 GHz. That is, one "Hertz" per bit.

Personally I do not care. 18 G bps is fine. 18 GHz is fine. The purpose of either is to convey meaning to the reader. Since both are commonly accepted, both are reasonable. I find 18 Giga Hertz easier to say. I was certainly not the first to use the term "18 GHz," but when I heard it I immediately said "I get why they are saying 18 GHz." 

Since the meaning of both is clear to the reader, I think we should agree to disagree if you do not like the term 18 GHz.

I hope we can now move on to other topics.


----------



## YanivZX6R

ooh wow, I wasn't expecting this from you Jim, you went all the way to Britannica.com definition and twisted it to showcase you are right.
No, 18Ghz to express an HDMI output is wrong, all you need to do is ACK it is a misprint, and let's move on.
It does not reduce anything from you, your company, or your product, your product is great and we all appreciate the effort you put into it, just let the 18Ghz go from now on and change it to the correct convention which is 18Gbps.


----------



## jrp

YanivZX6R said:


> ooh wow, I wasn't expecting this from you Jim, you went all the way to Britannica.com definition and twisted it to showcase you are right.
> No, 18Ghz to express an HDMI output is wrong, all you need to do is ACK it is a misprint, and let's move on.
> It does not reduce anything from you, your company, or your product, your product is great and we all appreciate the effort you put into it, just let the 18Ghz go from now on and change it to the correct convention which is 18Gbps.


As I said, let's agree to disagree.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

So bits it is but for some its hurts !!


----------



## SJHT

Who cares.… 🤓


----------



## WCEaglesMan

SJHT said:


> Who cares.… 🤓


People who like to get things right .... most tend to do.


----------



## SJHT

My eyes couldn’t read the labels on my 5348 anyways…


----------



## Javs

I should start calling my CPU a 5 Gigabit CPU then since you can flip the meanings at will...


----------



## DigitalAV

Javs said:


> I should start calling my CPU a 5 Gigabit CPU then since you can flip the meanings at will...


What the hell is a Jiggabit??!


----------



## Javs

DigitalAV said:


> What the hell is a Jiggabit??!


Dunno, it hertz my brain to think about it.


----------



## SJHT

I bit my lip and now it really hertz….


----------



## Chicagobear1

This topic hertz ma heid


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> However, the intended meaning is the "*bits *are transferred at the rate of *18 G per second*."


Wouldn't it be more clear then to just use the term 18 Gbps (*Giga bits per second*) what means exactly that.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> I have debated with myself if I should wade in with additional information, and extend a rather moot discussion on GHz versus G bps, or not. I imagine I will regret spending time on this, but oh well. Here goes:
> 
> ====
> 
> First I will say I am perfectly fine saying 18 G bps. People understand what is meant. However, people also understand what is meant by 18 GHz, since it is in common usage. One major thing about the English language is the meaning of words adapt and change over time to include more than their original meaning.
> 
> From the Britannica.com definition of Hertz: ... The frequency of any phenomenon with regular periodic variations can be expressed in hertz.... In this case the phenomenon are "data bits."
> 
> I think the error people make is assuming the 18 GHz is referring to the "clock rate" when it is in fact referring to the bit rate for HDMI. If you said "it has an 18 GHz clock rate" you would in fact be wrong. However, the intended meaning is the "bits are transferred at the rate of 18 G per second." Yes, I understand Hertz historically has referred to "cycles-per-second," but as the above definition from britannica.com says, it is _not_ limited to this.
> 
> HDMI encodes 8 bits of data into "10-bit Non-Return-to-Zero" (NRZ) format. So, if we wanted to get technical, only (8/10)*18 G bps of data is transferred. So if your preferred nomenclature is 18 G bps, it really should be 14.4 G bps of actual data bits are transferred. Only the carrier is 18 G bps. On top of this the clock rate is not exactly 18 GHz. Please understand that I think both these points are minor. I include them only for context.
> 
> Where the 18 GHz comes from is not the "clock rate" (normally measured from positive clock to positive clock), but instead is the "number of possible edges per second." In a typical system with one bit, it is one-bit-per-clock-cycle. In the NRZ encoding each edge (positive or negative) conveys information. Said another way if we define "Hertz" as the time it takes to convey "one bit of information" per the dictionary definition above, then in this case it is one-half the underlying "clock cycle time." So, it is not the number of positive edges, but rather the number of possible edges (not all happen) that defines the reason for calling it 18 GHz. That is, one "Hertz" per bit.
> 
> Personally I do not care. 18 G bps is fine. 18 GHz is fine. The purpose of either is to convey meaning to the reader. Since both are commonly accepted, both are reasonable. I find 18 Giga Hertz easier to say. I was certainly not the first to use the term "18 GHz," but when I heard it I immediately said "I get why they are saying 18 GHz."
> 
> Since the meaning of both is clear to the reader, I think we should agree to disagree if you do not like the term 18 GHz.
> 
> I hope we can now move on to other topics.


Oh my.. he pulled out the Chewbacca defence 😂😂.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

DigitalAV said:


> What the hell is a Jiggabit??!


You need to go 88 Jiggabits per hour to ensure the flux capacitor works and you don’t total your Delorian in JCPenny parking lot.. I believe, though some say mph, we’re both right 😂


----------



## FenceMan

Javs said:


> I should start calling my CPU a 5 Gigabit CPU then since you can flip the meanings at will...


I have a 5.8 Gigabit cordless phone.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

FenceMan said:


> I have a 5.8 Gigabit cordless phone.


Thats pretty impressive. I installed a 1Ghz Internet connection, it takes minutes to download 100ton video files in full 4oz resolution. If 8watt ever becomes a thing I think I have the bandheight to handle it 👍🏻


----------



## Erod

Quick question as a still a relatively new Lumagen owner. How long do these alpha updates typically take before they become a standard firmware release on the website? And how is the feedback/testing going so far?


----------



## tigerhonaker

SJHT said:


> Who cares.… 🤓


*Well said and Stated !!!*

Terry


----------



## Chicagobear1

Erod said:


> Quick question as a still a relatively new Lumagen owner. How long do these alpha updates typically take before they become a standard firmware release on the website? And how is the feedback/testing going so far?


I don't think the Alpha has been released yet im sure its only for a select few technical minded. Im sure it's for bug testing and stability reporting back to lumagen support with problems if any. Then the public release if it's ok clear after that happens i would think. Hopefully it will only take a week or 2 before public release after Alpha. Could take longer if buggy


----------



## Erod

This silly back-and-forth with Jim over something so trivial needs to stop. 

Show me in the other forums where the president of any company is online answering questions virtually every day to this extent.

Folks like Jim, Don Stewart, and a small handful of others are rare. I know it's good sales business, but why don't the others do it? Because they don't care to, that's why.

Appreciate it and knock if off.

I've said my peace.


----------



## Bill DePalma

I have an Integral and I would like to use the splitter capability to send 4k hdr to 2 different projectors at once. One projector is using the full 17x9 panel (RS2000) and the other is using a 16x9 panel (RS600) The integral will be getting the 4k signal from a Lumagen. Doing a quick test SDR looks great but HDR seems under saturated. Should I be setting the integral in any special way to deliver this content properly? Since the Lumagen is doing the tone mapping and is setup to send SDR2020 how does this affect the integral In terms of it’s setup. Thanks so much. Obviously I am confused and out of my depth. Appreciate any advice also asked this on the Integral forum.


----------



## Sandel

Re: New firmware - first results

I recently got to see tests with the new "enhanced pipeline"-firmware (still in a very early stage).
It seems to finally get rid of the red quantization error with 50 and 60 Hz material that I've been complaining about for years!
Yeah! That's some good news.
If deinterlacing and upconversion of SD stuff (like PAL and NTSC DVDs) gets equally good, then this is a major step up!


----------



## gerard1meehan

Perhaps this has been addressed earlier in the forum. But what are the benefits to using full 4k 4096 × 2160 on your projector vs *3840 × 2160* ? People have been referring to more light output. If someone could broaden that explanation I would appreciate it.

I am using a Sony 5000ES on a *16:9* screen (135in). My Lumigan 4444 and projector are calibrated

Thank you


----------



## FenceMan

gerard1meehan said:


> Perhaps this has been addressed earlier in the forum. But what are the benefits to using full 4k 4096 × 2160 on your projector vs *3840 × 2160* ? People have been referring to more light output. If someone could broaden that explanation I would appreciate it.
> 
> I am using a Sony 5000ES on a *16:9* screen (135in). My Lumigan 4444 and projector are calibrated
> 
> Thank you


That would be when used in conjunction with an anamorphic lens. With a 4096x2160 native projector a 2.39 aspect ratio film would have black bars on all four sides, Lumagen would upscale (and distort) the image to fill all 4096x2160 area and then the anamorphic lens compresses it back into correct aspect ratio. Since Blu Ray / 4k are not anamorphic sources you are doing an upscale to fill the empty pixels which is why you would want something very high quality (Lumagen) doing that upscale.


----------



## bobof

gerard1meehan said:


> Perhaps this has been addressed earlier in the forum. But what are the benefits to using full 4k 4096 × 2160 on your projector vs *3840 × 2160* ? People have been referring to more light output. If someone could broaden that explanation I would appreciate it.
> 
> I am using a Sony 5000ES on a *16:9* screen (135in). My Lumigan 4444 and projector are calibrated
> 
> Thank you


Given you have a 16:9 screen, no obvious benefit, unless you are prepared to sacrifice 16:9 AR. If you were prepared to only display ARs of 1.85:1 and wider, you could get some small output improvement for 1.85:1 and wider than you currently have.

Or use in conjunction with an Anamorphic lens which would further limit your displayable ARs and get you some more light output gains. But this seems like a total non-starter if your screen is 16:9.


----------



## Kris Deering

gerard1meehan said:


> Perhaps this has been addressed earlier in the forum. But what are the benefits to using full 4k 4096 × 2160 on your projector vs *3840 × 2160* ? People have been referring to more light output. If someone could broaden that explanation I would appreciate it.
> 
> I am using a Sony 5000ES on a *16:9* screen (135in). My Lumigan 4444 and projector are calibrated
> 
> Thank you


Zero reason to consider this with your setup.


----------



## Drexler

You can always have the projector upscale content wider than 16:9 to the full with of the panel, with or without an a-lens. It gives you a bit more light (14% more in 2.40:1 aspect ratio without an a-lens) since you are using a larger area of the panel. (4096×1707 vs 3840×1600).
The drawback is that you have to do a bit of upscaling. I dont think you would notice anything negative on movie content, but a desktop will look less sharp unless you can feed the projector native 4096×2160. Also, you would need to use a zoom memory shift from 16:9 content unless you use an a-lens.


----------



## gerard1meehan

I appreciate the feedback on my earlier question. Thanks for taking the time out to explain


----------



## 187crew003

Drexler said:


> You can always have the projector upscale content wider than 16:9 to the full with of the panel, with or without an a-lens. It gives you a bit more light (14% more in 2.40:1 aspect ratio without an a-lens) since you are using a larger area of the panel. (4096×1707 vs 3840×1600).
> The drawback is that you have to do a bit of upscaling. I dont think you would notice anything negative on movie content, but a desktop will look less sharp unless you can feed the projector native 4096×2160. Also, you would need to use a zoom memory shift from 16:9 content unless you use an a-lens.


why culdnt you use NLS for the 16:9 content

and you use the shrink option under styles if not using an anamorphic lense correct?


----------



## Craig Peer

187crew003 said:


> why culdnt you use NLS for the 16:9 content
> 
> and you use the shrink option under styles if not using an anamorphic lense correct?


Why do all that when you could just leave it as 1:1 with no scaling etc.?


----------



## Citation4444

Sandel said:


> Re: New firmware - first results
> 
> I recently got to see tests with the new "enhanced pipeline"-firmware (still in a very early stage).
> It seems to finally get rid of the red quantization error with 50 and 60 Hz material that I've been complaining about for years!
> Yeah! That's some good news.
> If deinterlacing and upconversion of SD stuff (like PAL and NTSC DVDs) gets equally good, then this is a major step up!


Does this mean the alpha firmware has been released to those on the approved list?


----------



## 187crew003

Craig Peer said:


> Why do all that when you could just leave it as 1:1 with no scaling etc.?


to gain more light output, as stated


----------



## Erod

187crew003 said:


> to gain more light output, as stated


Only makes sense if the projector is 17:9 native, like the JVCs.


----------



## jrp

Citation4444 said:


> Does this mean the alpha firmware has been released to those on the approved list?


We continue to work through the changes needed for the pipeline enhancement release and so have not released Alpha. Bug fixes have certainly taken a lot longer than we thought. The hardest case (4k50/4k60 in and out) is working well now though. So, we have made significant progress.

Some people were chomping at the bit to test the 4k50/4k60 in to out improvements. Since this is working in the engineering release I have sent it to a couple people who were okay with the caveats of what works, and what has not been completed. The report in the earlier post is from someone who saw this engineering release.

Patrick is working to complete deinterlacer changes this week. Note, the initial improvements in the Alpha release for deinterlaced sources are not all the planned improvements for deinterlacing. However, the output for interlaced sources will be improved in the initial Alpha release. More deinterlacing work is planned at a later date.

There is at least one bug in the output restart case that needs to be resolved. For example, with the engineering release I always get video at power on, but do not always get video after an output restart.

We could be two weeks away from the initial Alpha release but will not know until we get there.

We appreciate everyone's patience. As I have said before FPGA's are hyper-efficient for video processing, but the development can be a lot of work. Those who have been following my posts know that for the "pipeline enhancements" every section of the video pipeline is being reworked. Not starting over of course, but it is a huge change, and so a huge effort.


----------



## 187crew003

Erod said:


> Only makes sense if the projector is 17:9 native, like the JVCs.


i thought that was what was being discussed, sorry for the mistake


----------



## Citation4444

jrp said:


> We continue to work through the changes needed for the pipeline enhancement release and so have not released Alpha. Bug fixes have certainly taken a lot longer than we thought. The hardest case (4k50/4k60 in and out) is working well now though. So, we have made significant progress.
> 
> Some people were chomping at the bit to test the 4k50/4k60 in to out improvements. Since this is working in the engineering release I have sent it to a couple people who were okay with the caveats of what works, and what has not been completed. The report in the earlier post is from someone who saw this engineering release.
> 
> Patrick is working to complete deinterlacer changes this week. Note, the initial improvements in the Alpha release for deinterlaced sources are not all the planned improvements for deinterlacing. However, the output for interlaced sources will be improved in the initial Alpha release. More deinterlacing work is planned at a later date.
> 
> There is at least one bug in the output restart case that needs to be resolved. For example, with the engineering release I always get video at power on, but do not always get video after an output restart.
> 
> We could be two weeks away from the initial Alpha release but will not know until we get there.
> 
> We appreciate everyone's patience. As I have said before FPGA's are hyper-efficient for video processing, but the development can be a lot of work. Those who have been following my posts know that for the "pipeline enhancements" every section of the video pipeline is being reworked. Not starting over of course, but it is a huge change, and so a huge effort.


Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I will patiently wait for the official email notification for the alpha release.


----------



## Drexler

187crew003 said:


> why culdnt you use NLS for the 16:9 content
> 
> and you use the shrink option under styles if not using an anamorphic lense correct?


Yes, NLS, shrink, or another zoom/lensshift memory are the options. With different pros and cons...


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Some people were chomping at the bit to test the 4k50/4k60 in to out improvements.


Hmm, it's supposed to be "champing at the bit" so let's have a 2 page long discussion whereby posters lose their minds and show the absolute worst of humanity arguing over it, shall we?


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Hmm, it's supposed to be "champing at the bit" so let's have a 2 page long discussion whereby posters lose their minds and show the absolute worst of humanity arguing over it, shall we?


LOL. Yes let's not spend a lot of time, but:

"The original phrase is, indeed, *champing at the bit*, but chomping at the bit emerged in America in the 1930s according to the Oxford English Dictionary and chomp has overtaken champ in common use."

Quoted from: Champ or Chomp at the Bit?

Sorry, couldn't help myself


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> LOL. Yes let's not spend a lot of time, but:
> 
> "The original phrase is, indeed, *champing at the bit*, but chomping at the bit emerged in America in the 1930s according to the Oxford English Dictionary and chomp has overtaken champ in common use."
> 
> Quoted from: Champ or Chomp at the Bit?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself


Sorry, I can't resist...shouldn't it be "chomping at the hertz"?

(please take this as a fun joke and nothing more


----------



## GerryWaz

jrp said:


> LOL. Yes let's not spend a lot of time, but:
> 
> "The original phrase is, indeed, *champing at the bit*, but chomping at the bit emerged in America in the 1930s according to the Oxford English Dictionary and chomp has overtaken champ in common use."
> 
> Quoted from: Champ or Chomp at the Bit?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself


So our video processors are now word processors?


----------



## jrp

GerryWaz said:


> So our video processors are now word processors?


LOL.

Nope. I just enjoy etymology and could not resist.  

I don't enjoy entomology though, especially when the bugs are in our firmware


----------



## casperslide2004

I may be in the minority here, but I feel lumagen needs to get on the 8k bandwagon. I understand 8k content is not available yet. I understand it likely won’t be a large improvement. I also have an rs4100 capable of receiving an 8k signal. I feel I would benefit from the lumagen, the benefits it brings to being able to properly calibrate my color, but I’m not going to spend $6,000-$10,000 on something likely to be “outdated”within a year or two.


----------



## DigitalAV

casperslide2004 said:


> I may be in the minority here, but I feel lumagen needs to get on the 8k bandwagon. I understand 8k content is not available yet. I understand it likely won’t be a large improvement. I also have an rs4100 capable of receiving an 8k signal. I feel I would benefit from the lumagen, the benefits it brings to being able to properly calibrate my color, but I’m not going to spend $6,000-$10,000 on something likely to be “outdated”within a year or two.


Guys, Casper is entitled to his 8k scaler! Let's all drop everything we're doing and really dedicate ourselves to make it happen. I'll bring snacks


----------



## fatherom

DigitalAV said:


> Guys, Casper is entitled to his 8k scaler! Let's all drop everything we're doing and really dedicate ourselves to make it happen. I'll bring snacks


Huh? Not understanding the joke, I guess.


----------



## casperslide2004

fatherom said:


> Huh? Not understanding the joke, I guess.


I would agree. Not really contributing to the conversation. I would imagine that the high end video processor market isn’t a large target demographic. I would be part of that demographic. I know lumagen at least monitors this forum. I figured it would be helpful if they were aware they are missing out on sales / there is demand for 8k and it should be on the roadmap.


----------



## Clark Burk

casperslide2004 said:


> I may be in the minority here, but I feel lumagen needs to get on the 8k bandwagon. I understand 8k content is not available yet. I understand it likely won’t be a large improvement. I also have an rs4100 capable of receiving an 8k signal. I feel I would benefit from the lumagen, the benefits it brings to being able to properly calibrate my color, but I’m not going to spend $6,000-$10,000 on something likely to be “outdated”within a year or two.


I’m sure Lumagen is keeping an eye on their market. You do realize a 8k Lumagen would be an entirely new processor correct? I’m really just guessing but I figure the number of Lumagen owners now that would be willing to update from their current Lumagen to an 8k version that most likely will cost a lot more is quite small. 
When and if a demand for 8k processing increases to the point where it can be commercially marketed I’m sure it will happen.
Things that I feel need to happen……Oppo get back in the business of making 4K players……JVC get back in the business of making affordable projectors. Looks like I’m out of luck too .


----------



## Chicagobear1

Is it not the understanding 8k would have zero benefit with movies due to what the eye can actually capture in real time. They might be some benefits for gaming in the longer term with 8k


----------



## Bubblehead00

As a gamer I don’t care at all about 8K. 4K120 I definitely do care about though. For streaming content I’d much rather have lossless encoding of 4K than what would surely be a much more compressed 8K signal.


----------



## Chicagobear1

I agree 8k is a marketing pipe dream that's doomed to fail


----------



## Erod

8K is useless.


----------



## DigitalAV

casperslide2004 said:


> I would agree. Not really contributing to the conversation. I would imagine that the high end video processor market isn’t a large target demographic. I would be part of that demographic. I know lumagen at least monitors this forum. I figured it would be helpful if they were aware they are missing out on sales / there is demand for 8k and it should be on the roadmap.


What conversation? You want an 8k scaler. We get it. It's been addressed, read the thread. 

"helpful" lol, glad you're bringing it to their attention


----------



## DigitalAV

fatherom said:


> Huh? Not understanding the joke, I guess.


Guess not


----------



## DigitalAV

Bubblehead00 said:


> As a gamer I don’t care at all about 8K. 4K120 I definitely do care about though. For streaming content I’d much rather have lossless encoding of 4K than what would surely be a much more compressed 8K signal.


And VRR (when will projectors have that? now that's a good conversation!)


----------



## dlinsley

Clark Burk said:


> I’m sure Lumagen is keeping an eye on their market. You do realize a 8k Lumagen would be an entirely new processor correct? I’m really just guessing but I figure the number of Lumagen owners now that would be willing to update from their current Lumagen to an 8k version that most likely will cost a lot more is quite small.


Even if they could just do an 8k output card, the fact that the new JVC projectors (the only projectors that currently accept 8k input) cannot accept 8192 wide - 7680 max - makes it pointless for us DCR users. If JVC can fix that, it would mean non-scope 4k content would not need to be downscaled.


----------



## DigitalAV

dlinsley said:


> Even if they could just do an 8k output card, the fact that the new JVC projectors (the only projectors that currently accept 8k input) cannot accept 8192 wide - 7680 max - makes it pointless for us DCR users. If JVC can fix that, it would mean non-scope 4k content would not need to be downscaled.


Hate to say it (truly), but I can't imagine this ever happening as the 5XXX series has no daughter card upgrade path & is their flagship. Dollars to donuts if/when it happens it'll be a new model. Just keeping my own expectations in check


----------



## bjorg

Most content doesn't even maximize 4K. And, for me at least, the biggest improvement has been HDR, much more so than the added resolution. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Sandel

jrp said:


> I don't enjoy entomology though, especially when the bugs are in our firmware


Telling etymology from entomology has always been bugging me.
Word. 😄


----------



## FenceMan

Chicagobear1 said:


> I agree 8k is a marketing pipe dream that's doomed to fail


Same thing could have been said about 4k years ago. Kind of obvious why you guys are jumping down the persons throat about even bringing up 8k....



casperslide2004 said:


> I would agree. Not really contributing to the conversation. I would imagine that the high end video processor market isn’t a large target demographic. I would be part of that demographic. I know lumagen at least monitors this forum. I figured it would be helpful if they were aware they are missing out on sales / there is demand for 8k and it should be on the roadmap.


They are all very angry and defensive that you would bring up something that certain other solutions can already do.

Cue the wolves that are about to attack me....


----------



## fatherom

DigitalAV said:


> What conversation? You want an 8k scaler. We get it. It's been addressed, read the thread.
> 
> "helpful" lol, glad you're bringing it to their attention


Seriously? Just yesterday you were saying people being rude about something was the “worst of humanity” and then in the next breath you’re rude to someone who asks a legit question???

This group (and forum in general) has gotten super ugly in the last couple years. Everyone is nasty and pouncing over the smallest things.


----------



## Chicagobear1

FenceMan said:


> Same thing could have been said about 4k years ago. Kind of obvious why you guys are jumping down the persons throat about even bringing up 8k....
> 
> 
> They are all very angry and defensive that you would bring up something that certain other solutions can already do.
> 
> Cue the wolves that are about to attack me....


I'm certainly not jumping down anyone's throat just gave an option i have viewed 8k.

Can the naked eye tell the difference between 4K and 8K? It depends on your visual acuity and how far you are from the screen. But even under the best conditions, the difference is* minimal in my opinion*. I think that the value of 8K displays is not in the increased pixel. The processing power could increase thing's in the future possibly. We haven't even mastered 4k yet. Yet debating of what 8k is or is not capable of or better that of 4k


----------



## FenceMan

Chicagobear1 said:


> I'm certainly not jumping down anyone's throat just gave an option i have viewed 8k.
> 
> Can the naked eye tell the difference between 4K and 8K? It depends on your visual acuity and how far you are from the screen. But even under the best conditions, the difference is* minimal in my opinion*. I think that the value of 8K displays is not in the increased pixel. The processing power could increase thing's in the future


I agree, 4k seems plenty to me but at the same time 8k eshift is already here so its not like someone considering a purchase can just ignore it.


----------



## DigitalAV

fatherom said:


> Seriously? Just yesterday you were saying people being rude about something was the “worst of humanity” and then in the next breath you’re rude to someone who asks a legit question???
> 
> This group (and forum in general) has gotten super ugly in the last couple years. Everyone is nasty and pouncing over the smallest things.


Thanks for quoting my joke. Also, someone proclaiming that a company better do what they say or will lose money is far from a legit "question."


----------



## fatherom

casperslide2004 said:


> *I may be in the minority* here, but *I feel lumagen needs to get on the 8k bandwago*n. I understand 8k content is not available yet. I understand it likely won’t be a large improvement. I also have an rs4100 capable of receiving an 8k signal. I feel I would benefit from the lumagen, the benefits it brings to being able to properly calibrate my color, but I’m not going to spend $6,000-$10,000 on something likely to be “outdated”within a year or two.





DigitalAV said:


> Thanks for quoting my joke. Also, someone proclaiming that a company *better do what they say* or will lose money is far from a legit "question."


I've added bold and italics to what I think shows how your interpretation is no where close to the opinion of the original post.

And for someone to respond to that sarcastically with "I'll bring snacks" is just snarky and unwelcoming.


----------



## DigitalAV

fatherom said:


> I've added bold and italics to what I think shows how your interpretation is no where close to the opinion of the original post.
> 
> And for someone to respond to that sarcastically with "I'll bring snacks" is just snarky and unwelcoming.


Sorry I assumed he's read the thread, or at least a few weeks worth, and understood (1) the creator of the product has addressed 8k multiple times, is a human being, is very active in the thread, and is tirelessly working on a bunch of other enhancements, (2) the company is a team of I think two or three people, and (3) life does not start and stop to cater towards one person's ultra niche needs. Also, you forgot to bold the second part of his passive aggressive last sentence.


----------



## Geof

fatherom said:


> This group (and forum in general) has gotten super ugly in the last couple years. Everyone is nasty and pouncing over the smallest things.


That applies to society in general.
COVID has (and is) taking it's toll. We need to get back to our 'old ways'......ie, with vacations and no friggen masks.....etc....


----------



## Craig Peer

bjorg said:


> Most content doesn't even maximize 4K. And, for me at least, the biggest improvement has been HDR, much more so than the added resolution. Just my 2 cents.


Exactly - dynamic tone mapping of HDR and up scaling for my DCR lens ( and auto aspect ratio detection ) is the most important to me. I have zero 8K content and I seriously doubt there will be any ( other than games ). I’m all in on 4K content for the long haul at this point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

DigitalAV said:


> Hate to say it (truly), but I can't imagine this ever happening as the 5XXX series has no daughter card upgrade path & is their flagship. Dollars to donuts if/when it happens it'll be a new model. Just keeping my own expectations in check


I don't think upgrading is the be-all and end all. it can often be easier to replace a product and resell the outgoing unit than upgrade, especially if RTB is required, taking a room out of action for a period, etc.


----------



## audioguy

I've asked this on the JVC Z9 owner's thread but have yet to get a response so thought I would try here.

I have a JVC Z9 with Lumagen: I have the reported issues of flashing screen while watching movies. Jim Peterson (Lumagen) supplied me with a file (Zip file) to move the firmware of the Z9 back to a pre-release version which will eliminate this issue.

Has anyone done this yet? Do I unpack the zip file ( or leave it as a zip file), put on USB stick, insert into Z9 and then will it walk me through the process?


----------



## EVH78

Yes, done this. Unzip the file to an empty USB stick with Fat32. Then go to the JVC menu and look for software update. The NZ9 will detect the USB stick and all you need to do is confirm.

IMPORTANT: The software update takes almost 30 minutes! 

I noticed that eshift X has only two modes (standard and highres) and that frame adapt is not working with cmd on this version.


----------



## ShadeRF

audioguy said:


> I've asked this on the JVC Z9 owner's thread but have yet to get a response so thought I would try here.
> 
> I have a JVC Z9 with Lumagen: I have the reported issues of flashing screen while watching movies. Jim Peterson (Lumagen) supplied me with a file (Zip file) to move the firmware of the Z9 back to a pre-release version which will eliminate this issue.
> 
> Has anyone done this yet? Do I unpack the zip file ( or leave it as a zip file), put on USB stick, insert into Z9 and then will it walk me through the process?


This happened to me, but I was able to fix it by just turning genlock off and did not need to downgrade firmware.


----------



## Kris Deering

FenceMan said:


> Same thing could have been said about 4k years ago. Kind of obvious why you guys are jumping down the persons throat about even bringing up 8k....
> 
> 
> They are all very angry and defensive that you would bring up something that certain other solutions can already do.
> 
> Cue the wolves that are about to attack me....


From a resolution standpoint there has always been trepidation about going to the next K. This is mainly because people see something and just don't think it can get much better. But if you get away from this subjective viewpoint you can see that there is actually objective information about visual perception and resolution. Obviously the jump from 480i to 1080p was significant. This honestly is probably enough for more than 90% of the public with 55-65" screens that are more than 10' away in living rooms. But 1080p is not quite enough for most large screen home theaters (>100"). But 4K IS. In fact, I would wager that the vast majority (probably more than 99%) can't even make out a single pixel pattern (any style) from seating distance for 4K. 1080p is typically easily discernible. Now I am all for higher resolution for the CAPTURE side, but we've hit the mark where going beyond 4K is going to be more of a marketing thing if you are trying to claim it as a benefit from just a resolution standpoint. Video would benefit much more by staying at 4K and improving other areas (native chroma resolution, bit depth, compression). 

Also, as resolution of the display increases the image is only going to get softer overall. Pixels become much smaller and the gaps associated with them. So the picture becomes smoother. This is also one of the reasons so many find DLP much sharper looking than LCOS.


----------



## Kris Deering

EVH78 said:


> Yes, done this. Unzip the file to an empty USB stick with Fat32. Then go to the JVC menu and look for software update. The NZ9 will detect the USB stick and all you need to do is confirm.
> 
> IMPORTANT: The software update takes almost 30 minutes!
> 
> I noticed that eshift X has only two modes (standard and highres) and that frame adapt is not working with cmd on this version.


The update is 58 minutes, not 38. It says this clearly before you accept it. Just hit yes and come back in an hour.


----------



## Kris Deering

ShadeRF said:


> This happened to me, but I was able to fix it by just turning genlock off and did not need to downgrade firmware.


Genlock is not the issue. I NEVER use GENLOCK and can reproduce the problem easily across all of the new JVC models. It has to do with the HDMI changes that JVC made from the earlier firmware.


----------



## ShadeRF

Kris Deering said:


> Genlock is not the issue. I NEVER use GENLOCK and can reproduce the problem easily across all of the new JVC models. It has to do with the HDMI changes that JVC made from the earlier firmware.


I don't know what to tell you. I had constant dropouts with my RS3100 connected to the Lumagen the first few days I had it until I turned genlock off and it has not happened again a single time since in over 200 hours of viewing. This is the only setting I changed and I am running firmware 1.20

Dropout was happening on both my Nvidia Shield and Oppo 203. For what it's worth I go Sources - > AVR -> Lumagen -> Projector.


----------



## Kris Deering

ShadeRF said:


> I don't know what to tell you. I had constant dropouts with my RS3100 connected to the Lumagen the first few days I had it until I turned genlock off and it has not happened again a single time since in over 200 hours of viewing. This is the only setting I changed and I am running firmware 1.20
> 
> Dropout was happening on both my Nvidia Shield and Oppo 203. For what it's worth I go Sources - > AVR -> Lumagen -> Projector.


If it was a Genlock issue, I would have never had it. Believe me, I've spent hours trying to figure out if something would help this problem. Cables, sources, frame rates, resolutions, everything. I'm glad you seem to not have the issue. Can you let me know what cabling you are using between the AVR to Lumagen and Lumagen to projector? Any other devices in the chain (like a HD Fury?).


----------



## tigerhonaker

Kris Deering said:


> From a resolution standpoint there has always been trepidation about going to the next K. This is mainly because people see something and just don't think it can get much better. But if you get away from this subjective viewpoint you can see that there is actually objective information about visual perception and resolution. Obviously the jump from 480i to 1080p was significant. This honestly is probably enough for more than 90% of the public with 55-65" screens that are more than 10' away in living rooms. But 1080p is not quite enough for most large screen home theaters (>100"). But 4K IS. In fact, I would wager that the vast majority (probably more than 99%) can't even make out a single pixel pattern (any style) from seating distance for 4K. 1080p is typically easily discernible. Now I am all for higher resolution for the CAPTURE side, but we've hit the mark where going beyond 4K is going to be more of a marketing thing if you are trying to claim it as a benefit from just a resolution standpoint. Video would benefit much more by staying at 4K and improving other areas (native chroma resolution, bit depth, compression).
> 
> Also, as resolution of the display increases the image is only going to get softer overall. Pixels become much smaller and the gaps associated with them. So the picture becomes smoother. This is also one of the reasons so many find DLP much sharper looking than LCOS.


Kris Deering,

I have a request for you and or Jim.
And even though I'm the one asking the following I'm sure there are other AVS members like myself that would like to know the following.

Would you mind covering in (Simple) down-to-earth words that any layman can understand the following.

What's this Newest Software change that Jim is working on currently actually going to do for us that have 16x9 123" screen and a seating distance of 12'6".
I have the JVC RS4500 custom calibrated as well as (Thanks to you) the Newest Stewart ST 130 G4 screen.
And the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 that's also been Custom Calibrated.

*Let me add this, what am I going to see that's different than right now ???
I just now added this comment ...........
If No-One told me they just loaded the Newest (Pipeline) Lumagen Software Up-Date would I or anyone instantly notice a difference in what they or I see ???*

Terry


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Also, as resolution of the display increases the image is only going to get softer overall. Pixels become much smaller and the gaps associated with them. So the picture becomes smoother. This is also one of the reasons so many find DLP much sharper looking than LCOS.


Kris, in your experience, is sharpness the endgame or is realism the endgame? (honest question, you know way more than me about this stuff)

At 8K, if the picture becomes smoother, isn't that getting us one step closer to the way "real life" looks? (not sure if that's the goal of home theater, ultimately, or not)


----------



## ShadeRF

Kris Deering said:


> If it was a Genlock issue, I would have never had it. Believe me, I've spent hours trying to figure out if something would help this problem. Cables, sources, frame rates, resolutions, everything. I'm glad you seem to not have the issue. Can you let me know what cabling you are using between the AVR to Lumagen and Lumagen to projector? Any other devices in the chain (like a HD Fury?).


I use the Monoprice 115428 Certified Premium HDMI Cables 6' from my sources to my AVR and from my AVR to the Lumagen and the RUIPRO 4K60HZ 33 feet Light Speed HDMI2.0b Cable from the Lumagen to my Projector. No other devices along the way.


----------



## garyolearysteele

ShadeRF said:


> I use the Monoprice 115428 Certified Premium HDMI Cables 6' from my sources to my AVR and from my AVR to the Lumagen and the RUIPRO 4K60HZ 33 feet Light Speed HDMI2.0b Cable from the Lumagen to my Projector. No other devices along the way.


Just wanted to check that you and Kris are definitely taking about the same thing? I think you are since it began with a reply to a post about flashing images.. but since you also describe it as a “Drop out” just wondered if you are referring to a purple flash that’s known about, or if your issue was more of a drop out?

Apologies if this is obvious, just seems odd since all NZ owners on here have seen the same issue afaik and genlock I thought was quite uncommon


----------



## Karl Maga

fatherom said:


> Seriously? Just yesterday you were saying people being rude about something was the “worst of humanity” and then in the next breath you’re rude to someone who asks a legit question???
> 
> This group (and forum in general) *has gotten super ugly in the last couple years*. Everyone is nasty and pouncing over the smallest things.


Kind of interesting that the timing correlated with the MadVR trolls arrival into this thread, no?

@FenceMan plays at just hanging out, but every chance he gets to throw a dig in he'll do it. In other words, he trolls the thread waiting for his chance.

As for the pushback on casper, he made a reasonable point, but with a pinch of tactlessness. You makes your comment, you gets your response.


----------



## FenceMan

Karl Maga said:


> Kind of interesting that the timing correlated with the MadVR trolls arrival into this thread, no?
> 
> @FenceMan plays at just hanging out, but every chance he gets to throw a dig in he'll do it. In other words, he trolls the thread waiting for his chance.
> 
> As for the pushback on casper, he made a reasonable point, but with a pinch of tactlessness. You makes your comment, you gets your response.


That is a ridiculous statement. I am no troll, I just find it interesting that someone brings up 8k and gets their head bit off. I also find it interesting (as usual) that anyone that dares bring up anything that might even *hint* at something that *might* be a *potential* issue for someone with a Lumagen gets called a troll. I have spent over $10,000.00 on various Lumagen products over the years going back as far as the 2144 and as recently as the 4446 and I find them to be amazing products, so amazing in fact that they probably don't need the AVS hit squad to be so aggressive in their defense....


----------



## DigitalAV

FenceMan said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. I am no troll, I just find it interesting that someone brings up 8k and gets their head bit off. I also find it interesting (as usual) that anyone that dares bring up anything that might even *hint* at something that *might* be a *potential* issue for someone with a Lumagen gets called a troll. I have spent over $10,000.00 on various Lumagen products over the years going back as far as the 2144 and I find them to be amazing products, so amazing in fact that they probably don't need the AVS hit squad to be so aggressive in their defense....


Nah, I bit no one's head off and explained my response in 3 points. It has nothing to do with other products and everything to do with rehashing the same old circle-talking. What new information was gained? Nothing. Also, whenever I rail on how stupid & silly this thread can get, I'm including myself as no exception & have apologized in the past for the same. This time is no different & I'll try to be less of a d!ck (no promises).


----------



## alv

Would more resolution be helpful to many people? I can't come close to seeing pixels on my 8' wide screen at about 11 feet.


----------



## Drexler

I have a quick question. How do I set up so that the lumagen upscales everything to 4096×2160? I cant find it. In the input setup it doesnt accept any changes and there, no general option to upscale to cine4k that I can see... I'm sure there's a simole solution to this... 🙃


----------



## DigitalAV

FenceMan said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. I am no troll, I just find it interesting that someone brings up 8k and gets their head bit off. I also find it interesting (as usual) that anyone that dares bring up anything that might even *hint* at something that *might* be a *potential* issue for someone with a Lumagen gets called a troll. I have spent over $10,000.00 on various Lumagen products over the years going back as far as the 2144 and as recently as the 4446 and I find them to be amazing products, so amazing in fact that they probably don't need the AVS hit squad to be so aggressive in their defense....


Another thing I will add that seems to be lost to the "my product versus your product" folks -- The Envy is able to do 8k because there is no hardware design; it's using off-the-shelf nvidia cards designed and built by a small army upon which madshi can lay down his brilliant software designs. The Radiance Pro is a highly custom product, both hardware and software designed by another brilliant mind.

What folks like me react to is NOT the fact that one product can do something that the other can't -- rather it's the way posters can feel entitled to patronize a company they KNOW is headed by a passionate, generous owner who is always bending over backwards to help his customers and keep the peace, yet we still see absolute trolls antagonizing said generous owner & it sucks


----------



## Karl Maga

FenceMan said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. *I am no troll*


*That is exactly what you are doing* when you accuse someone of being an "attack squad member" because they make a reasoned argument about why they feel 8K support is not needed. You try to dismiss their argument altogether by assigning a provocative, disrespectful label to them.

You do this constantly, in this thread and in the Video Processor thread. You have numerous posts doing exactly this just in the last two weeks alone.

If you bowl, you are a bowler. If you fly planes, you are a pilot.


----------



## DigitalAV

Drexler said:


> I have a quick question. How do I set up so that the lumagen upscales everything to 4096×2160? I cant find it. In the input setup it doesnt accept any changes and there, no general option to upscale to cine4k that I can see... I'm sure there's a simole solution to this... 🙃


Apologies for stepping on your question -- bumping and will help with some steps tonight if someone else doesn't answer first.


----------



## CintiAudio

Hey Folks, thanks for everyone's contributions on this forum. I've read it all but by the time I got to the end I've forgotten what is at the beginning. So I'll ask now.

I want to have both a projector and a TV as outputs for my 4444. I won't be using them at the same time. I'm thinking that I'd just set two output memories and then two calibrations--one for TV and one for projector. Will this work with two sets of calibrations?

Thanks!


----------



## DigitalAV

CintiAudio said:


> Hey Folks, thanks for everyone's contributions on this forum. I've read it all but by the time I got to the end I've forgotten what is at the beginning. So I'll ask now.
> 
> I want to have both a projector and a TV as outputs for my 4444. I won't be using them at the same time. I'm thinking that I'd just set two output memories and then two calibrations--one for TV and one for projector. Will this work with two sets of calibrations?
> 
> Thanks!


I think this should help:



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0001_IndependentOutputCalibrations_040412.pdf



Let us know how it goes, I'm looking to drive two displays also in the near future!


----------



## jrp

Wading into the 8k discussion:

I will try to summarize my previous posts on 8k since I understand most do not want to sift through the history in this thread.

There are two independent questions concerning 8k:
1) Should consumer video ever be streamed at 8k
2) Does an 8k input on a projector have any benefit

The answer to number 1) is easy IMO: No!

Given the same bit bandwidth, and compression algorithm, I believe that in a double blind study at viewing distance between the best 8k can do and the best 4k can do the result would either be no visible difference, or the 4k stream being judged better. While I cannot be sure of this until such a blind study is completed, here are the reasons for my thesis.

A blind-study evaluation was done on a true 4k projector. A 1080p24 Bluray disc was passed through a Radiance Pro (before we improved the scaling a year+ ago) to drive one projector input at 4k. Then it was compared by a panel of video experts to a true 4k version of that same content. This was a blind study so they did not know which was which. _None_ of the panelist could tell the 2k from the 4k. The reason is 4k, at 1x screen width recommended viewing distance, is below human visual acuity. And of course the Radiance Pro scaling even back then was most excellent. If humans cannot tell the difference between a properly scaled 2k image and a 4k image shown at 4k, then there is no way they could tell the difference between a 4k and an 8k image.

In addition, for the same bandwidth 4k will have fewer compression artifacts, and/or can use a better format. For example, it could be the 8k uses normal compression, but at 4k the content could be sent at 4:2:2, or even 4:4:4, 12-bit with "near lossless" compression.

Every video expert I have had this discussion with has agreed with me. All agreed that "better 4k pixels" is more important than "more pixels."

So, is there _any_ reason for 36 GHz to 48 GHz HDMI 2.1 content? The answer is yes. It makes makes sense for 4k120 gaming (only).

===== 

Kris Deering was kind enough two bring a RS4100 (NZ9) projector to my house on two different occasions. We were able to compare sending the NZ9 4k with and without the Radiance Pro in the path. Going straight to the projector we put up an 8k resolution test pattern. At three feet from the large screen in the Lumagen Demo theater, we could resolve the 8k pattern. So the projector can resolve 8k. However, even at half the image width away the every-other pixel resolution test pattern merged in to a solid gray. I still have about 20/20 vision in one eye and so I believe I am a good test case for this. This shows that at 1x image width 8k provide no extra visible resolution improvement versus 4k from a human factors point of view. 

Sending the NZ9 projector 4k did not appear to me to improve image quality going direct to the projector, versus the Lumagen demo theater RS4500, IMO. However, going through the Radiance Pro (and output at 4k to the projector as one would expect), we did see that the 8k mode of the projector (versus 4k output mode) showed a very small improvement on a static image when the Radiance Pro enhancement was enabled, versus not enabled. So the projector upscaling to 8k from with the Radiance Pro with enhancements did improve the image in this specific case by a small but visible amount. I attribute this to the improvement "over-sampling" can provide. However, note that IMO this improvement is not visible on moving images.

IMO the JVC NZ9 did a good job scaling the Radiance Pro 4k output to 8k. Given the NZ9 current design, this had an advantage, even over 8k to teh projector, in that the pro output 4096, and the projector scaled it to 8192 wide, where the 8k input on the NZ9 currently only supports up to 7680 wide.

I should also note I am on the list to get an RS4100 soon. So, I believe it to be an excellent projector, and the combination of the RS4100 with a Radiance Pro is IMO amazing.

============== 

The standard reported for human visual acuity is one-arc-second (1/60th of one degree of arc) for on/off contrast (such as in the black and white character H). Since video images have much less than on/off contrast, the visible elements in a static image could not be resolved at one-arc-second. Another factor is that this one-arc-second is valid for a very small subtended angle at the focus point of human vision even for static images. Also, for moving images, the human visual acuity is much less. 

For humans with 20/20 vision, a 4k image at 1x image width viewing distance the pixel area is less than one-arc-second.

So, is there a case for sending 4k content to an 8k projector at 8k? Yes, there is one case to consider. The specific case that makes sense is 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen. For a 4k connection this means that the 16:9 content must be down-scaled. If the video processor sends 8k for this case, then the video is still upscaled to the projector's output resolution. It remains to be seen (no pun intended) if this improvement is actually visible at viewing distance. I believe for actual video this would be ether a very minor improvement or no visible improvement at viewing distance.

============== 

As I imply in this post, the only reasonable way to evaluate video is to do so in the intended theater environment, with the intended equipment, at viewing distance. This is the only way to account for all factors, including projector characteristics, the screen, electrical noise (which affect DiLA and LCOS projectors), and HDMI jitter's effect on Bit-Error-Rate (BER). If you cannot see it in this environment at viewing distance it does not matter, and so is moot.

==============

To answer the futures question, we are looking at 4k120 and 8k for a future product. Given we have not started the design, and lead time on parts is coming in at one to two years in some cases, it will not be any time soon should that we do an "8k" product. As the above information indicates, I believe the advantages of such a product are actually small. Most intense gaming is done using monitors, rather than in home theaters. Those who have an 4k120 capable projector have the option to directly drive the projector for gaming at 4k120. 

Given video processors are a niche within the niche of home cinema, the low percentage of our clients who want 4k120 gaming, and given they can drive the projector directly if so, working on a 4k120/8k product may not have a very good Return-On-Investment (ROI). Personally I would much prefer to spend time and development dollars on "better pixels at 4k for consumer video" rather than "more pixels."

I hope this information is useful.

As my posts sometimes do, this likely kicked the hornet's nest. So be it.


----------



## Drexler

DigitalAV said:


> Apologies for stepping on your question -- bumping and will help with some steps tonight if someone else doesn't answer first.


Thanks.
I managed to get the resolution out to 4096 by changing the output setup mode to: in: 4k24 - output: 2160p24 (4096×2160). However, it seems to introduce some kind of judder or jump every 5 or 10 seconds or so. It's like the framerates are not really matched and then jumps to catch up. I just want to upscale to the native panel resolution, not mess with the framerates...


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Drexler said:


> I have a quick question. How do I set up so that the lumagen upscales everything to 4096×2160? I cant find it. In the input setup it doesnt accept any changes and there, no general option to upscale to cine4k that I can see... I'm sure there's a simole solution to this... 🙃


there is a simple solution.

I am not in front of a processor right now but...

MENU>OUTPUT>OK should throw up a big OSD with input and output parameters

press Ok and cursor on to Input and change it to ALL then go right to memory and change it to ALL (using up and down cursor) then go cursor right tno next section and change the resolution selected to ALL 24Hz and then cursor right to the current OUTPUT MODE which is likely at some AUTO setting and change it to CINE 4K 24Hz. Then exit and do it again and change ALL 24 to ALL 60 and output Mode to CINE4K 60Hz...and if you use 50Hz then do the same for 50Hz stuff...then MENU?SAVE>SAVE>SAVE


----------



## CSB282000

jrp said:


> These are not EDID or HDCP related, but instead related to the physical HDMI signals.
> 
> For video, dropouts are generally due to an excessive bit error rate (BER). High BER in general comes from the signal "eye diagram" collapsing due to reflections and other transmission-line signal aberrations.
> 
> I have a number of posts where I discuss the physics of HDMI, and how every connection is a "system." This varies by source, and by sink (projector input, AVR input). No chip manufacturer specifies their EQ, and this varies between chip manufacturers. So, every system is unique. The solution most often comes down to a better, or longer, HDMI cable.
> 
> There are two main considerations for an HDMI cable:
> 
> Attenuation: HDMI outputs and inputs have equalization to compensate for longer cables. A passive cable must have an appropriate amount of attenuation to match the equalization on the source and the sink. The attenuation reduces the edge rate as the cable is longer, making it easier for the receiver to capture the signal. The amount of attenuation needed is affected by the cable's signal quality.
> 
> Signal quality: All HDMI cables have "transmission line discontinuities." The example I use for this is a 1 by 20 oscillating wave trough. The wave pattern is disturbed as you throw more rocks in the wave trough. Discontinuities in the transmission line have a similar effect on the HDMI signal quality. Cables designed for higher rates must have better signal quality, and so smaller transmission line discontinuities.
> 
> In the recent post where Apple recommended 48 GHz passive cables for the AppleTV 4k, they did so to improve the signal quality, and reduce signal reflections in the cable, versus an 18 GHz cable. This in turn gave more of the HDMI "margin budget" to the sink input. Up until recently this has not been an available option. So, for the past 15 years I have recommended longer (but not too long) passive cables to increase signal attenuation.
> 
> Both approach's are valid, and used together may well provide the optimal cable solution. By using a 3-meter 48 GHz cable, people are taking advantage of both factors discussed above.


I have a long run (150') from my Lumagen to my Sony and initially had dropout issues trying several different active cables. After we talked to Jim I switched to a 48 G passive cable (even though Jim recommended the 18 G I think, but I took it mostly that he was emphasizing a passive cable would likely work better) and have not had any dropouts since.


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> Wading into the 8k discussion:
> 
> I will try to summarize my previous posts on 8k since I understand most do not want to sift through the history in this thread.
> 
> There are two independent questions concerning 8k:
> 1) Should consumer video ever be streamed at 8k
> 2) Does an 8k input on a projector have any benefit
> 
> The answer to number 1) is easy IMO: No!
> 
> Given the same bit bandwidth, and compression algorithm, I believe that in a double blind study at viewing distance between the best 8k can do and the best 4k can do the result would either be no visible difference, or the 4k stream being judged better. While I cannot be sure of this until such a blind study is completed, here are the reasons for my thesis.
> 
> A blind-study evaluation was done on a true 4k projector. A 1080p24 Bluray disc was passed through a Radiance Pro (before we improved the scaling a year+ ago) to drive one projector input at 4k. Then it was compared by a panel of video experts to a true 4k version of that same content. This was a blind study so they did not know which was which. _None_ of the panelist could tell the 2k from the 4k. The reason is 4k, at 1x screen width recommended viewing distance, is below human visual acuity. And of course the Radiance Pro scaling even back then was most excellent. If humans cannot tell the difference between a properly scaled 2k image and a 4k image shown at 4k, then there is no way they could tell the difference between a 4k and an 8k image.
> 
> In addition, for the same bandwidth 4k will have fewer compression artifacts, and/or can use a better format. For example, it could be the 8k uses normal compression, but at 4k the content could be sent at 4:2:2, or even 4:4:4, 12-bit with "near lossless" compression.
> 
> Every video expert I have had this discussion with has agreed with me. All agreed that "better 4k pixels" is more important than "more pixels."
> 
> So, is there _any_ reason for 36 GHz to 48 GHz HDMI 2.1 content? The answer is yes. It makes makes sense for 4k120 gaming (only).
> 
> =====
> 
> Kris Deering was kind enough two bring a RS4100 (NZ9) projector to my house on two different occasions. We were able to compare sending the NZ9 4k with and without the Radiance Pro in the path. Going straight to the projector we put up an 8k resolution test pattern. At three feet from the large screen in the Lumagen Demo theater, we could resolve the 8k pattern. So the projector can resolve 8k. However, even at half the image width away the every-other pixel resolution test pattern merged in to a solid gray. I still have about 20/20 vision in one eye and so I believe I am a good test case for this. This shows that at 1x image width 8k provide no extra visible resolution improvement versus 4k from a human factors point of view.
> 
> Sending the NZ9 projector 4k did not appear to me to improve image quality going direct to the projector, versus the Lumagen demo theater RS4500, IMO. However, going through the Radiance Pro (and output at 4k to the projector as one would expect), we did see that the 8k mode of the projector (versus 4k output mode) showed a very small improvement on a static image when the Radiance Pro enhancement was enabled, versus not enabled. So the projector upscaling to 8k from with the Radiance Pro with enhancements did improve the image in this specific case by a small but visible amount. I attribute this to the improvement "over-sampling" can provide. However, note that IMO this improvement is not visible on moving images.
> 
> IMO the JVC NZ9 did a good job scaling the Radiance Pro 4k output to 8k. Given the NZ9 current design, this had an advantage, even over 8k to teh projector, in that the pro output 4096, and the projector scaled it to 8192 wide, where the 8k input on the NZ9 currently only supports up to 7680 wide.
> 
> I should also note I am on the list to get an RS4100 soon. So, I believe it to be an excellent projector, and the combination of the RS4100 with a Radiance Pro is IMO amazing.
> 
> ==============
> 
> The standard reported for human visual acuity is one-arc-second (1/60th of one degree of arc) for on/off contrast (such as in the black and white character H). Since video images have much less than on/off contrast, the visible elements in a static image could not be resolved at one-arc-second. Another factor is that this one-arc-second is valid for a very small subtended angle at the focus point of human vision even for static images. Also, for moving images, the human visual acuity is much less.
> 
> For humans with 20/20 vision, a 4k image at 1x image width viewing distance the pixel area is less than one-arc-second.
> 
> So, is there a case for sending 4k content to an 8k projector at 8k? Yes, there is one case to consider. The specific case that makes sense is 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen. For a 4k connection this means that the 16:9 content must be down-scaled. If the video processor sends 8k for this case, then the video is still upscaled to the projector's output resolution. It remains to be seen (no pun intended) if this improvement is actually visible at viewing distance. I believe for actual video this would be ether a very minor improvement or no visible improvement at viewing distance.
> 
> ==============
> 
> As I imply in this post, the only reasonable way to evaluate video is to do so in the intended theater environment, with the intended equipment, at viewing distance. This is the only way to account for all factors, including projector characteristics, the screen, electrical noise (which affect DiLA and LCOS projectors), and HDMI jitter's effect on Bit-Error-Rate (BER). If you cannot see it in this environment at viewing distance it does not matter, and so is moot.
> 
> ==============
> 
> To answer the futures question, we are looking at 4k120 and 8k for a future product. Given we have not started the design, and lead time on parts is coming in at one to two years in some cases, it will not be any time soon should that we do an "8k" product. As the above information indicates, I believe the advantages of such a product are actually small. Most intense gaming is done using monitors, rather than in home theaters. Those who have an 4k120 capable projector have the option to directly drive the projector for gaming at 4k120.
> 
> Given video processors are a niche within the niche of home cinema, the low percentage of our clients who want 4k120 gaming, and given they can drive the projector directly if so, working on a 4k120/8k product may not have a very good Return-On-Investment (ROI). Personally I would much prefer to spend time and development dollars on "better pixels at 4k for consumer video" rather than "more pixels."
> 
> I hope this information is useful.
> 
> As my posts sometimes do, this likely kicked the hornet's nest. So be it.


So, if I might do a "net-net", if one is sitting at one screen width away (or further), then 8K provides ZERO perceived resolution improvement over 4K (at least for movies). Accurate statement based upon your findings?


----------



## FenceMan

Karl Maga said:


> *That is exactly what you are doing* when you accuse someone of being an "attack squad member" because they make a reasoned argument about why they feel 8K support is not needed. You try to dismiss their argument altogether by assigning a provocative, disrespectful label to them.
> 
> You do this constantly, in this thread and in the Video Processor thread. You have numerous posts doing exactly this just in the last two weeks alone.
> 
> If you bowl, you are a bowler. If you fly planes, you are a pilot.


I have no desire to argue with you guys or sit here and be called petty names. I will politely point out the difference between @jrp explaining his reasoning behind 8k and some overly enthusiastic hit squad shooting down someone's question out of hand. One was a well thought out, educated explaination while the others were more of a visceral GTFO with your stupid question response. I wholeheartedly agree 4k is plenty AND the RP does a great job.


----------



## bjorg

fatherom said:


> Kris, in your experience, is sharpness the endgame or is realism the endgame? (honest question, you know way more than me about this stuff)
> 
> At 8K, if the picture becomes smoother, isn't that getting us one step closer to the way "real life" looks? (not sure if that's the goal of home theater, ultimately, or not)


Personally, I would prefer seeing movies adopt 60 frames/second (FPS) instead of the antiquated 24 FPS. That would add a lot more realism than 8K. However, I seem to be part of a minority that favors smooth action over the artform we enjoy today.


----------



## casperslide2004

My intention was not to stir the pot, and didn’t think I’d invoke such a reaction. 

DigitalAV was right that I have not read through the entire thread. I have done quite a bit of googling trying to find information on 8k with lumagen and hadn’t seen anything.

Jrp, thank you for your post. It was extremely informative and helpful to the conversation. To me, it answers my question. 8k may be available in a future product. It’s not likely that there will be any distinguishable visual gain. I’d be better off getting a lumagen now rather than waiting 2+ years. 

Many of us in this group / avscience are avid hobbists with the pursuit of the perfection. The cutting edge of technology. Better this, better that, always having the question of, “What can I do to make my theater better.”

The problem with this pursuit, this “What if?” is it costs so much damn money. If I have the 8k pre pro, and I have the 8k projector…what if…


----------



## DigitalAV

FenceMan said:


> I will politely point out the difference between @jrp explaining his reasoning behind 8k and some overly enthusiastic hit squad shooting down someone's question out of hand.


You are 100% correct & he, his company, products, and terminology deserve respect and the benefit of the doubt that he's carefully considering & doing what's best for us enthusiasts


----------



## aguy

Gordon Fraser said:


> there is a simple solution.
> 
> I am not in front of a processor right now but...
> 
> MENU>OUTPUT>OK should throw up a big OSD with input and output parameters
> 
> press Ok and cursor on to Input and change it to ALL then go right to memory and change it to ALL (using up and down cursor) then go cursor right tno next section and change the resolution selected to ALL 24Hz and then cursor right to the current OUTPUT MODE which is likely at some AUTO setting and change it to CINE 4K 24Hz. Then exit and do it again and change ALL 24 to ALL 60 and output Mode to CINE4K 60Hz...and if you use 50Hz then do the same for 50Hz stuff...then MENU?SAVE>SAVE>SAVE


I have set up my radiance pro now for all resolutions to be scaled to 4096 and I am very happy with the results. 

My use case is a little different to some. I need to use all 4096 width of my panel to zoom to fit my screen because of my short throw distance. 

Previously I had the radiance scaling to 3840 and then my Sony projector would scale to 4096. Obviously that resulted in multiple different scaling s occurring. At worst there was 576 to 1080p done in Kodi. Then 1920 x 1080to 3840 x 2160 in radiance and 3840 to 4096 in Sony. 

Now the radiance does everything from 1080p and above straight to 4096 wide. I feel like the imagine is definitely better. Especially on the source material that has been scaled all the way from 576p

Thanks for a terrific bit of equipment. 

I’ve also sorted out my projector glitches when changing my refresh rates. I have a hdfury on the other output of the lumagen and it was casing issues durin lga hdmi resync when the refresh rate changed. By setting the output to N in the radiance while using the projector the resync issues have disappeared. I have different memories now to use either output 2 or output 4 for video depending if I want to use the projector or the TV ( via HD fury). The non use output is set to no output from the radiance in each memory. 

Very happy indeed 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DigitalAV

casperslide2004 said:


> My intention was not to stir the pot, and didn’t think I’d invoke such a reaction.
> 
> DigitalAV was right that I have not read through the entire thread. I have done quite a bit of googling trying to find information on 8k with lumagen and hadn’t seen anything.
> 
> Jrp, thank you for your post. It was extremely informative and helpful to the conversation. To me, it answers my question. 8k may be available in a future product. It’s not likely that there will be any distinguishable visual gain. I’d be better off getting a lumagen now rather than waiting 2+ years.
> 
> Many of us in this group / avscience are avid hobbists with the pursuit of the perfection. The cutting edge of technology. Better this, better that, always having the question of, “What can I do to make my theater better.”
> 
> The problem with this pursuit, this “What if?” is it costs so much damn money. If I have the 8k pre pro, and I have the 8k projector…what if…


Extremely well said & apologies for me getting fresh


----------



## WCEaglesMan

I think that 8K resolution will have little to improve upon what we see as compared to 4K resolution (for most people). However it is what will also accompany the 8K that may offer improvements in PQ.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> So, if I might do a "net-net", if one is sitting at one screen width away (or further), then 8K provides ZERO perceived resolution improvement over 4K (at least for movies). Accurate statement based upon your findings?


No. Here is a summary (I am not sure if you mean compression, or display, so I am including both):

At 1X screen width viewing distance people with 20/20 vision would see solid gray for an every other pixel pattern as noted in my post. That is, the additional resolution is not visible for this specific test case.

As noted, there can be some small advantage to display 8k due to "oversampling" available at 8k that is visible at viewing distance (as both Kris and I saw in our tests) at least on a very high resolution static image, or the static portion of an image that has some movement. Note that any enhancements must come _after_ the video is decompressed.

Again as noted, when 16:9 content is output on 2.40 screen, and processor is set to 2.40 output aspect, for output to the projector at 8k there _may_ be a small visible improvement since this is an "up-scale" case, rather than a "down-scale" case as it is for 4k output from the processor.

Finally, for compressed consumer content at 8K, versus 4k, the compression must throw out more high frequency information to compress four times as many pixels into the same bandwidth. So, my expectation is the 4k and 8k streams will look the same, since 4k is already below human visual perception. There is a small chance the 4k might look better since it likely has fewer compression artifacts, or the 4k may use a better video format. I freely acknowledge I have not seen this test done. This would need to be done as a blind study, in an actual theater, with an appropriate projector/screen combination, at viewing distance, which I believe is the only way to have believable results.


----------



## Leon66

I’d asked the question regarding the SW issue between Lumagen and the NZ9 too. I haven’t rolled back the firmware as Im waiting for a solution with current firmware. The big question is, which there seems no answer or comment to IS JVC ACTUALLY WORKING ON THIS PROBLEM????
My 11 year old daughter commented yesterday while we were watching a movie ‘daddy why not get your old projector back?’ 
Not the greatest comment…to which I had no answer other than I think someone’s trying to fix it? 
Does the old SW remove any functionality? 
Really hoping someone who knows can comment a bit more…..  



Kris Deering said:


> If it was a Genlock issue, I would have never had it. Believe me, I've spent hours trying to figure out if something would help this problem. Cables, sources, frame rates, resolutions, everything. I'm glad you seem to not have the issue. Can you let me know what cabling you are using between the AVR to Lumagen and Lumagen to projector? Any other devices in the chain (like a HD Fury?).


----------



## Drexler

Leon66 said:


> I’d asked the question regarding the SW issue between Lumagen and the NZ9 too. I haven’t rolled back the firmware as Im waiting for a solution with current firmware. The big question is, which there seems no answer or comment to IS JVC ACTUALLY WORKING ON THIS PROBLEM????
> My 11 year old daughter commented yesterday while we were watching a movie ‘daddy why not get your old projector back?’
> Not the greatest comment…to which I had no answer other than I think someone’s trying to fix it?
> Does the old SW remove any functionality?
> Really hoping someone who knows can comment a bit more…..


Is it the color flashes you are referring to?
I have the NZ8 with fw 1.2 and a lumagen and have not experienced the problems that have been reported here. But I have my avr in between the lumagen and the pj. Maybe you can try that, at least as a temporary solution?

As far as I know going back to the old jvc firmware affects the laser dimming feature. If you dont use that it might not affect you.


----------



## Leon66

Yes it is the flashing. Having my avr ahead of the Lumagen doesn’t work for me. What I really want is a response from JVC or Lumagen as to when this is going to be fixed. After all it’s only a 35k investment between the 2!!! I quite like laser dimming hence reluctance to roll back. It’s the devil and deep blue sea and my main frustration here is no comms regarding a timescale or even if its being worked on…


----------



## EVH78

Leon66 said:


> What I really want is a response from JVC or Lumagen as to when this is going to be fixed. .... regarding a timescale or even if its being worked on…


+1


----------



## Ilushka85

Leon66 said:


> Yes it is the flashing. Having my avr ahead of the Lumagen doesn’t work for me. What I really want is a response from JVC or Lumagen as to when this is going to be fixed. After all it’s only a 35k investment between the 2!!! I quite like laser dimming hence reluctance to roll back. It’s the devil and deep blue sea and my main frustration here is no comms regarding a timescale or even if its being worked on…



As stated about 10x in this forum... its a JVC problem they are aware... nothing to do with Lumagen here. Perhaps you best direct this to jvc?


----------



## SJHT

This was posted earlier…..









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Jim, is this something that can be fixed with a Lumagen firmware update, or does it have to be fixed on JVCs end? Id love to get one of the new NZ laser pjs, but I don’t want to be stuck using the pre-production JVC firmware




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Erod

jrp said:


> Wading into the 8k discussion:
> 
> I will try to summarize my previous posts on 8k since I understand most do not want to sift through the history in this thread.
> 
> There are two independent questions concerning 8k:
> 1) Should consumer video ever be streamed at 8k
> 2) Does an 8k input on a projector have any benefit
> 
> The answer to number 1) is easy IMO: No!
> 
> Given the same bit bandwidth, and compression algorithm, I believe that in a double blind study at viewing distance between the best 8k can do and the best 4k can do the result would either be no visible difference, or the 4k stream being judged better. While I cannot be sure of this until such a blind study is completed, here are the reasons for my thesis.
> 
> A blind-study evaluation was done on a true 4k projector. A 1080p24 Bluray disc was passed through a Radiance Pro (before we improved the scaling a year+ ago) to drive one projector input at 4k. Then it was compared by a panel of video experts to a true 4k version of that same content. This was a blind study so they did not know which was which. _None_ of the panelist could tell the 2k from the 4k. The reason is 4k, at 1x screen width recommended viewing distance, is below human visual acuity. And of course the Radiance Pro scaling even back then was most excellent. If humans cannot tell the difference between a properly scaled 2k image and a 4k image shown at 4k, then there is no way they could tell the difference between a 4k and an 8k image.
> 
> In addition, for the same bandwidth 4k will have fewer compression artifacts, and/or can use a better format. For example, it could be the 8k uses normal compression, but at 4k the content could be sent at 4:2:2, or even 4:4:4, 12-bit with "near lossless" compression.
> 
> Every video expert I have had this discussion with has agreed with me. All agreed that "better 4k pixels" is more important than "more pixels."
> 
> So, is there _any_ reason for 36 GHz to 48 GHz HDMI 2.1 content? The answer is yes. It makes makes sense for 4k120 gaming (only).
> 
> =====
> 
> Kris Deering was kind enough two bring a RS4100 (NZ9) projector to my house on two different occasions. We were able to compare sending the NZ9 4k with and without the Radiance Pro in the path. Going straight to the projector we put up an 8k resolution test pattern. At three feet from the large screen in the Lumagen Demo theater, we could resolve the 8k pattern. So the projector can resolve 8k. However, even at half the image width away the every-other pixel resolution test pattern merged in to a solid gray. I still have about 20/20 vision in one eye and so I believe I am a good test case for this. This shows that at 1x image width 8k provide no extra visible resolution improvement versus 4k from a human factors point of view.
> 
> Sending the NZ9 projector 4k did not appear to me to improve image quality going direct to the projector, versus the Lumagen demo theater RS4500, IMO. However, going through the Radiance Pro (and output at 4k to the projector as one would expect), we did see that the 8k mode of the projector (versus 4k output mode) showed a very small improvement on a static image when the Radiance Pro enhancement was enabled, versus not enabled. So the projector upscaling to 8k from with the Radiance Pro with enhancements did improve the image in this specific case by a small but visible amount. I attribute this to the improvement "over-sampling" can provide. However, note that IMO this improvement is not visible on moving images.
> 
> IMO the JVC NZ9 did a good job scaling the Radiance Pro 4k output to 8k. Given the NZ9 current design, this had an advantage, even over 8k to teh projector, in that the pro output 4096, and the projector scaled it to 8192 wide, where the 8k input on the NZ9 currently only supports up to 7680 wide.
> 
> I should also note I am on the list to get an RS4100 soon. So, I believe it to be an excellent projector, and the combination of the RS4100 with a Radiance Pro is IMO amazing.
> 
> ==============
> 
> The standard reported for human visual acuity is one-arc-second (1/60th of one degree of arc) for on/off contrast (such as in the black and white character H). Since video images have much less than on/off contrast, the visible elements in a static image could not be resolved at one-arc-second. Another factor is that this one-arc-second is valid for a very small subtended angle at the focus point of human vision even for static images. Also, for moving images, the human visual acuity is much less.
> 
> For humans with 20/20 vision, a 4k image at 1x image width viewing distance the pixel area is less than one-arc-second.
> 
> So, is there a case for sending 4k content to an 8k projector at 8k? Yes, there is one case to consider. The specific case that makes sense is 16:9 content on a 2.40 screen. For a 4k connection this means that the 16:9 content must be down-scaled. If the video processor sends 8k for this case, then the video is still upscaled to the projector's output resolution. It remains to be seen (no pun intended) if this improvement is actually visible at viewing distance. I believe for actual video this would be ether a very minor improvement or no visible improvement at viewing distance.
> 
> ==============
> 
> As I imply in this post, the only reasonable way to evaluate video is to do so in the intended theater environment, with the intended equipment, at viewing distance. This is the only way to account for all factors, including projector characteristics, the screen, electrical noise (which affect DiLA and LCOS projectors), and HDMI jitter's effect on Bit-Error-Rate (BER). If you cannot see it in this environment at viewing distance it does not matter, and so is moot.
> 
> ==============
> 
> To answer the futures question, we are looking at 4k120 and 8k for a future product. Given we have not started the design, and lead time on parts is coming in at one to two years in some cases, it will not be any time soon should that we do an "8k" product. As the above information indicates, I believe the advantages of such a product are actually small. Most intense gaming is done using monitors, rather than in home theaters. Those who have an 4k120 capable projector have the option to directly drive the projector for gaming at 4k120.
> 
> Given video processors are a niche within the niche of home cinema, the low percentage of our clients who want 4k120 gaming, and given they can drive the projector directly if so, working on a 4k120/8k product may not have a very good Return-On-Investment (ROI). Personally I would much prefer to spend time and development dollars on "better pixels at 4k for consumer video" rather than "more pixels."
> 
> I hope this information is useful.
> 
> As my posts sometimes do, this likely kicked the hornet's nest. So be it.


My vote is definitely for better 4K pixels, not more of them, as well as better motion capability.

4K could be done so much better, just like Atmos. I wish the focus across the spectrum would turn to improving what's already here.


----------



## Leon66

And round and round we go. Have already posted in the JVC forum several times. I have no idea if a fix is a week, a month or never….my dealer is also none the wiser. As ever, it’s always about communication…..

So right now mating a Lumagen to a JVC NZ projector is buggy. Someone somewhere must know when that will cease to be the issue! 




Ilushka85 said:


> As stated about 10x in this forum... its a JVC problem they are aware... nothing to do with Lumagen here. Perhaps you best direct this to jvc?


----------



## DVD MAN

Lumagen & JVC Calibration ?
I calibrated SDR with my Lumagen Radienc Pro JVC NX9 combo yesterday with Calman using a I1 Display profiled from a Jeti 1211. I did a 21 Point Autocal for Grayscale and used the BT. 709 Color Profile from the JVC. Here are the results. Do you think a 3D LUT calibration will improve these results?


----------



## Craig Peer

Leon66 said:


> And round and round we go. Have already posted in the JVC forum several times. I have no idea if a fix is a week, a month or never….my dealer is also none the wiser. As ever, it’s always about communication…..
> 
> So right now mating a Lumagen to a JVC NZ projector is buggy. Someone somewhere must know when that will cease to be the issue!


It's possible the new Lumagen pipeline enhancement firmware will fix this - or not.


----------



## sjschaff

Leon66 said:


> And round and round we go. Have already posted in the JVC forum several times. I have no idea if a fix is a week, a month or never….my dealer is also none the wiser. As ever, it’s always about communication…..
> 
> So right now mating a Lumagen to a JVC NZ projector is buggy. Someone somewhere must know when that will cease to be the issue!


Not clear here what "forum" you mean by JVC. I do not believe JVC bothers with forums, be they on this site or others. Question is whether you've directed your question / issue to JVC itself. And they may have a specific process by which customers are able to ask for fixes, etc.


----------



## Craig Peer

sjschaff said:


> Not clear here what "forum" you mean by JVC. I do not believe JVC bothers with forums, be they on this site or others. Question is whether you've directed your question / issue to JVC itself. And they may have a specific process by which customers are able to ask for fixes, etc.


JVC is getting a Lumagen and looking into this.


----------



## Erod

Leon66 said:


> And round and round we go. Have already posted in the JVC forum several times. I have no idea if a fix is a week, a month or never….my dealer is also none the wiser. As ever, it’s always about communication…..
> 
> So right now mating a Lumagen to a JVC NZ projector is buggy. Someone somewhere must know when that will cease to be the issue!


Such is the inevitable plight of the early adopter. They will bet it sorted out, but you'll have to get comfy while you wait.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> I actually suggested to JVC that they add a laser level control to allow the Radiance Pro to dynamically set the laser level using a vendor-specific HDMI Info Frame command. The Radiance Pro DTM could then add the laser level to its algorithmic transfer function adaptation. I was told this would not happen. It was worth a shot.


Pipedream of the day -- how great would it be if the fixed JVC firmware included this. Instant buy for me


----------



## jrp

Concerning the JVC NZ series firmware, and condensing the situation into a single post, here is what I know:

The JVC NZ preproduction software had issues with some "main stream" AVRs, but worked amazingly well with the Radiance Pro. This includes fast lock-on time from the Radiance Pro output. JVC changed their HDMI FPGA code (at least that is what I believe was changed) to improve operation with some main-stream AVR devices that they were having HDMI issues with using the preproduction NZ firmware. Given the nature of "walking the tightrope" for HDMI issues, they "fell off the rope" for the NZ production release for HDMI using the Radiance Pro output, and some other devices. Not everyone is now having issues with the Radiance Pro directly driving the NZ series projector, but many are. The solution is to revert to the preproduction JVC NZ release which I have been giving to those who send an email to lumagen.com support.

The issue is in the NZ series projector firmware and cannot be fixed in the Radiance Pro. So, this is up to JVC to resolve.

I believe the preproduction release only changes the laser dimming slightly. Given I recommend (rather strongly) against using laser dimming since IMO it is making the quality worse by making everything too dark and there are scenes where it is crushing detail, this IMO is a non-issue. In other words the pre-production NZ is an excellent release to use. 

JVC is aware of their HDMI issue, and expressing interest in resolving it.

At JVC's request, I sent a Radiance Pro 4242-18G to them earlier this week. It will arrive late this week. They plan to test the NZ series with this Radiance Pro in the USA. After testing in the USA, I expect they will then send the unit to the engineering team in Japan, but this is conjecture on my part.

I will try to keep everyone up to date on any developments with NZ series firmware.


----------



## alv

Jim (or someone else), You indicate that your dithering makes no discernible difference in picture quality between 9 and 18 GHz output. If you have a chance can you explain what the dithering actually does? Thanks. I believe that the picture is the same, but interested in knowing why.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

DVD MAN said:


> Lumagen & JVC Calibration ?
> I calibrated SDR with my Lumagen Radienc Pro JVC NX9 combo yesterday with Calman using a I1 Display profiled from a Jeti 1211. I did a 21 Point Autocal for Grayscale and used the BT. 709 Color Profile from the JVC. Here are the results. Do you think a 3D LUT calibration will improve these results?


Those pics have great error levels but that is a minisucle sample of the internal colour volume of the PJ so its not giving enough information to really give an answer. Do a 9x9x9 cube measurement or greater and look at the error levels to see how things look. What you have looks good though so it may be that a full 3D Cube LUT may not be of any visible or measurable benefit. If you have the time then i'd suggest you try it and do a seperate CMS bank to see for yourself.


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> Jim (or someone else), You indicate that your dithering makes no discernible difference in picture quality between 9 and 18 GHz output. If you have a chance can you explain what the dithering actually does? Thanks. I believe that the picture is the same, but interested in knowing why.


Dithering adds an (essentially) indiscernible amount of noise to the output using the extra bits of information that is internal to the Radiance Pro to help eliminate visible contouring. So the internal 12-bit data is dithered to 8-bits for a 9 GHz output at 4k60.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia entry for dither:









Dither - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.


----------



## DVD MAN

Gordon Fraser said:


> Those pics have great error levels but that is a minisucle sample of the internal colour volume of the PJ so its not giving enough information to really give an answer. Do a 9x9x9 cube measurement or greater and look at the error levels to see how things look. What you have looks good though so it may be that a full 3D Cube LUT may not be of any visible or measurable benefit. If you have the time then i'd suggest you try it and do a seperate CMS bank to see for yourself.


Thank you Gordon. I will give a shot. Do you think its possible to get green on target?


----------



## Kris Deering

Leon66 said:


> And round and round we go. Have already posted in the JVC forum several times. I have no idea if a fix is a week, a month or never….my dealer is also none the wiser. As ever, it’s always about communication…..
> 
> So right now mating a Lumagen to a JVC NZ projector is buggy. Someone somewhere must know when that will cease to be the issue!


I've already stated that Lumagen sent a Radiance to JVC for them to investigate. Hopefully they will and find the problem and fix it. How long that takes is anyones guess. When we know something, I'm sure we will say something.


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Thank you Gordon. I will give a shot. Do you think its possible to get green on target?


If green is low, a LUT won't help that. A LUT can only fix colors that are capable in the projector. It looks like your green is low (which I've never seen before with a JVC). You can do a JVC autocal to try and see if it is a limitation from the factory and then do the calibration with CalMan.


----------



## alv

jrp said:


> Dithering adds an (essentially) indiscernible amount of noise to the output using the extra bits of information that is internal to the Radiance Pro to help eliminate visible contouring. So the internal 12-bit data is dithered to 8-bits for a 9 GHz output at 4k60.
> 
> Here is a link to the Wikipedia entry for dither:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dither - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Thanks that helps. What happens for 4K/24?


----------



## Kris Deering

alv said:


> Thanks that helps. What happens for 4K/24?


Nothing


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> Thanks that helps. What happens for 4K/24?


The dither is per-output-frame. I was evaluating 4k24 output and based my comments on this.

I do not believe there is any visible difference with dithering between 24, 50 or 60 Hertz output.


----------



## Erod

jrp said:


> Dithering adds an (essentially) indiscernible amount of noise to the output using the extra bits of information that is internal to the Radiance Pro to help eliminate visible contouring. So the internal 12-bit data is dithered to 8-bits for a 9 GHz output at 4k60.
> 
> Here is a link to the Wikipedia entry for dither:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dither - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


So you're saying there's no discernible visual difference between 10/12-bit and 8-bit video? (Along with the change from 4:2:2 to 4:2:0)


----------



## jrp

Patrick sent me a new engineering release with the deinterlacing section updated for the pipeline enhancements.

I think that the Radiance Pro deinterlacing is the best it has ever looked and a significant step up from previous releases. I do not spend a lot of time with 1080i sources, but looked at some interlaced content for combing and quality. I did not notice any combing on the content I have used in the past for "micro-combing." Narrow elements, such as guitar strings, look significantly better IMO. I looked at a couple 1080i channels on DirecTV and they looked IMO much better than before.

I did not evaluate SD interlaced source. So, SD interlaced content still needs to be checked.

Once Patrick resolves the "losing image on a source switch" issue, I believe we will be able to send out the first Alpha release. Since this is a "bug fix" it is difficult to put a timeframe on when this will be, but I hope it is soon and within the next week.

We already have stellar reports on how much the pipeline update has improved 4k50 and 4k60 content. I will be very interested in comments from the people who have been looking forward to the deinterlacing improvements.


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> Patrick sent me a new engineering release with the deinterlacing section updated for the pipeline enhancements.
> 
> I think that the Radiance Pro deinterlacing is the best it has ever looked and a significant step up from previous releases. I do not spend a lot of time with 1080i sources, but looked at some interlaced content for combing and quality. I did not notice any combing on the content I have used in the past for "micro-combing." Narrow elements, such as guitar strings, look significantly better IMO. I looked at a couple 1080i channels on DirecTV and they looked IMO much better than before.
> 
> I did not evaluate SD interlaced source. So, SD interlaced content still needs to be checked.
> 
> Once Patrick resolves the "losing image on a source switch" issue, I believe we will be able to send out the first Alpha release. Since this is a "bug fix" it is difficult to put a timeframe on when this will be, but I hope it is soon and within the next week.
> 
> We already have stellar reports on how much the pipeline update has improved 4k50 and 4k60 content. I will be very interested in comments from the people who have been looking forward to the deinterlacing improvements.


jrp,



> *Narrow elements, such as guitar strings, look significantly better IMO.
> I looked at a couple 1080i channels on DirecTV and they looked IMO much better than before.*


I watch a lot of programs from Dish Network so I suppose DirectTV and Dish are the same difference.
I should Enjoy the New Up-Date. 

Terry


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> Patrick sent me a new engineering release with the deinterlacing section updated for the pipeline enhancements.
> 
> I think that the Radiance Pro deinterlacing is the best it has ever looked and a significant step up from previous releases. I do not spend a lot of time with 1080i sources, but looked at some interlaced content for combing and quality. I did not notice any combing on the content I have used in the past for "micro-combing." Narrow elements, such as guitar strings, look significantly better IMO. I looked at a couple 1080i channels on DirecTV and they looked IMO much better than before.
> 
> I did not evaluate SD interlaced source. So, SD interlaced content still needs to be checked.
> 
> Once Patrick resolves the "losing image on a source switch" issue, I believe we will be able to send out the first Alpha release. Since this is a "bug fix" it is difficult to put a timeframe on when this will be, but I hope it is soon and within the next week.
> 
> We already have stellar reports on how much the pipeline update has improved 4k50 and 4k60 content. I will be very interested in comments from the people who have been looking forward to the deinterlacing improvements.


 I'm looking forward to the pipeline enhancements but I am delighted to hear about de-interlacing improvements. I do watch a lot of DirecTv 1080i !!!


----------



## Chris5

Same here, it’s good to see the core features being improved, because if these are not at their best then that has a knock on effect to everything else. Very excited.

edited to sound less pompous


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> Thanks that helps. What happens for 4K/24?


I am taking another shot at your question, since I may have misinterpreted it before:

For 4k24 using a 9 GHz output card the Pro outputs 4:2:2 at 12-bits. The 18 GHz output sends out this exact same format. So for 4k24, there is no difference in the data between a 9 GHz output card and a 18 GHz output card.


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> So you're saying there's no discernible visual difference between 10/12-bit and 8-bit video? (Along with the change from 4:2:2 to 4:2:0)


I always have to preface my comment with a "IMO" but yes, for the Radiance Pro output for HDR content at 4k60 in and out, I have not been able to see any difference between a 9 GHz output at 8-bit dithered 4:2:0, and a 18 GHz output at 12-bit 4:2:2 using our JVC RS4500. Since I was doing this as an "engineering design test" I actually walked up to the screen just to be extra sure of my result (user evaluations should always be done at viewing distance, but as a designer I break this rule for design tests).

Note that this is specific to the Radiance Pro output. For sources, for 4k60 HDR, using 18 GHz 4:2:2 12-bit, or 10-bit (or 12-bit) 4:2:0, is required for best quality since they do not dither. Even if they did dither, it should be applied after processing and so it would still be optimal to output 12-bit 4:2:2, or 10-bit 4:2:0 from HDR sources.


----------



## Erod

Chris5 said:


> Same here, it’s good to see the core features being improved, because if these are not at their best then that has a knock on effect to everything else. Very excited.
> 
> edited to sound less pompous


Pomposity in AV discussions? The hell you say?


----------



## jqmn

jrp said:


> I am taking another shot at your question, since I may have misinterpreted it before:
> 
> For 4k24 using a 9 GHz output card the Pro outputs 4:2:2 at 12-bits. The 18 GHz output sends out this exact same format. So for 4k24, there is no difference in the data between a 9 GHz output card and a 18 GHz output card.


I recently noticed my streamer (AP I think) putting out 4k24p 4:4:4 (or at least that is what the RP reported as incoming). Is your thinking here to output 4:2:2 or flip to 4:4:4 for a match? Thank-you.


----------



## Drexler

I find that the constant height of the autoaspect shift isnt working perfectly. I have the scope format perfectly fitting within the screen. However, when it shifts down to narrower aspect ratios it's leaving around an inch of the height unused (e.g. the AR shifting in guardians of the galaxy 2). I have tried experimenting a bit with the AR setting 2.40-2.35:1 but that didn't solve it. Any tips how to fix it?
Setup is LRP to NZ8 with Paladin DCR lens. LRP upscaling to 4096x2160.
Thanks!!


----------



## DVD MAN

Kris Deering said:


> If green is low, a LUT won't help that. A LUT can only fix colors that are capable in the projector. It looks like your green is low (which I've never seen before with a JVC). You can do a JVC autocal to try and see if it is a limitation from the factory and then do the calibration with CalMan.


Is it possible that 100% Green is being affected by the limitations of the meter? I noticed this issue on a(NX7 a NX9 and a RS500). If it is a PJ or a meter limitation do you think this error in green is visible when watching a program? I also did a 3D LUT 9X9X9 with the Lumagen. I set the Color Temp (High Bright) and Color Profile (Normal Off) on the JVC. I did a Pre Color Check with Calman and all colors where oversaturated. After the 3D LUT was completed the color was improved from an avg de of 0.8 to 0.3 but 100% Green was the same with a max de2.8. However my avg de for grayscale went from 0.5 to 1.2. Do you these errors are visible to eye .


----------



## audioguy

Wasn't sure if I should post this on the Strato thread or on the Lumagen thread or the Trinnov thread (will do all), but last night, while watching a movie, I experienced a fairly long audio (maybe 4 or 5 seconds - or longer) dropout. I know Jim Peterson (Lumagen) says these are typically HDMI cable issues, but I'm not interested (unless mandatory) to start ripping out all my nice and neat cable management to replace cables if that is not the issue. When I bought the Lumagen, I was told (by Jim Peterson) to use at least 2 meters in length and a specific brand (between components) and I did. I will reset the HDMI cables from the Strato and Lumagen, but am wondering if I use the HDMI audio out from the Strato directly to the Trinnov if I will eliminate this issue, at least for the Strato.

Comments?


----------



## dlinsley

Drexler said:


> I find that the constant height of the autoaspect shift isnt working perfectly. I have the scope format perfectly fitting within the screen. However, when it shifts down to narrower aspect ratios it's leaving around an inch of the height unused (e.g. the AR shifting in guardians of the galaxy 2). I have tried experimenting a bit with the AR setting 2.40-2.35:1 but that didn't solve it. Any tips how to fix it?
> Setup is LRP to NZ8 with Paladin DCR lens. LRP upscaling to 4096x2160.
> Thanks!!


Is this the IMAX version on Disney+? I can't say I noticed an issue with the disc, but it has been a few months since we watched GotG2. The only show I've had an issue with is Babysitters Club season 1, which was in 2.1:1 (see previous posts about 2.1:1 not being supported).


----------



## sjschaff

audioguy said:


> Wasn't sure if I should post this on the Strato thread or on the Lumagen thread or the Trinnov thread (will do all), but last night, while watching a movie, I experienced a fairly long audio (maybe 4 or 5 seconds - or longer) dropout. I know Jim Peterson (Lumagen) says these are typically HDMI cable issues, but I'm not interested (unless mandatory) to start ripping out all my nice and neat cable management to replace cables if that is not the issue. When I bought the Lumagen, I was told (by Jim Peterson) to use at least 2 meters in length and a specific brand (between components) and I did. I will reset the HDMI cables from the Strato and Lumagen, but am wondering if I use the HDMI audio out from the Strato directly to the Trinnov if I will eliminate this issue, at least for the Strato.
> 
> Comments?


Couple of things...is the Strato's dedicated audio out designed for passing all of today's latest codecs? I know my problems with using the secondary dedicated audio out of both older and newer Zappiti players indicate an issue of some kind when attempting to play DD+ into my Trinnov A16. I needed to force bitstream on the input to get that to work, but then lost PCM based support. But it may be worth a try. You may also run into lip sync issues due to the splitting, but that can be corrected to a degree in the Lumagen and probably the Strato (never used one). Also, in my case, I always found problems in using the LRP as a switch, so send all sources into the Trinnov. Never have any audio dropouts since doing so.


----------



## Drexler

dlinsley said:


> Is this the IMAX version on Disney+? I can't say I noticed an issue with the disc, but it has been a few months since we watched GotG2. The only show I've had an issue with is Babysitters Club season 1, which was in 2.1:1 (see previous posts about 2.1:1 not being supported).


Regular version on D+. I used it for testing the shifting. When in scope it perfectly fits the screen, but when shifting to the imax parts it shrinks it a bit too much so it doesnt fill the full height like the scope ratio did. Maybe you are right that it is an odd ratio that is slightly wider than 16:9 and when scaled down to 16:9 it's not tall enough anymore. I will try some other material and see. I thought it read the size of the black bars and scaled accordingly no matter the aspect ratio used, but I suppose it could be limited to specific preprogrammed scale changes. Then at least I know I shouldnt look for a solution in the settings and save some time and frustration. 🙂


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Is it possible that 100% Green is being affected by the limitations of the meter? I noticed this issue on a(NX7 a NX9 and a RS500). If it is a PJ or a meter limitation do you think this error in green is visible when watching a program? I also did a 3D LUT 9X9X9 with the Lumagen. I set the Color Temp (High Bright) and Color Profile (Normal Off) on the JVC. I did a Pre Color Check with Calman and all colors where oversaturated. After the 3D LUT was completed the color was improved from an avg de of 0.8 to 0.3 but 100% Green was the same with a max de2.8. However my avg de for grayscale went from 0.5 to 1.2. Do you these errors are visible to eye .


I have no idea if it is a meter issue. I am just saying that if a display is not capable of hitting a color point (undersaturated), a LUT is not going to help that. A LUT can only work on the colors the projector CAN do, not what it can't. If you are seeing some colors come up short, it may be a limitation of the projector. With the NX series I'd say that about 99% of them come up short in green when tracking P3, so that is not surprising.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> Wasn't sure if I should post this on the Strato thread or on the Lumagen thread or the Trinnov thread (will do all), but last night, while watching a movie, I experienced a fairly long audio (maybe 4 or 5 seconds - or longer) dropout. I know Jim Peterson (Lumagen) says these are typically HDMI cable issues, but I'm not interested (unless mandatory) to start ripping out all my nice and neat cable management to replace cables if that is not the issue. When I bought the Lumagen, I was told (by Jim Peterson) to use at least 2 meters in length and a specific brand (between components) and I did. I will reset the HDMI cables from the Strato and Lumagen, but am wondering if I use the HDMI audio out from the Strato directly to the Trinnov if I will eliminate this issue, at least for the Strato.
> 
> Comments?


Not sure if this has anything to do with your dropout issue, but here is a result I found with our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude16:

About a month ago Trinnov updated my Altitude firmware to the latest public release, since I was way behind on updates. Prior to the update I would get a rare audio drop on DTS HD (which is a reported issue with the Altitude), but I did not have any ATMOS drop-outs. After the update I started to get an occasional dropout for ATMOS content. I did reseat all cables as this often fixes audio dropouts, but this did not help.

What resolved the ATMOS dropouts was that I turned off the audio up-sampler in the Trinnov. Since I went into the Trinnov setup menu and disabled the up-sampler just over two weeks ago (so I do not need to manually turn it off every time) I have not had any ATMOS dropouts. I have been trying to watch a lot of ATMOS content to be sure (often two movies a night - I know rough life) to make sure. So far using native for audio format has eliminated ATMOS drop-outs in the Lumagen Demo Theater. If you have audio up-sample enabled in the Trinnov I suggest trying with it set to native.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Not sure if this has anything to do with your dropout issue, but here is a result I found with our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude16:
> 
> About a month ago Trinnov updated my Altitude firmware to the latest public release, since I was way behind on updates. Prior to the update I would get a rare audio drop on DTS HD (which is a reported issue with the Altitude), but I did not have any ATMOS drop-outs. After the update I started to get an occasional dropout for ATMOS content. I did reseat all cables as this often fixes audio dropouts, but this did not help.
> 
> What resolved the ATMOS dropouts was that I turned off the audio up-sampler in the Trinnov. Since I went into the Trinnov setup menu and disabled the up-sampler just over two weeks ago (so I do not need to manually turn it off every time) I have not had any ATMOS dropouts. I have been trying to watch a lot of ATMOS content to be sure (often two movies a night - I know rough life) to make sure. So far using native for audio format has eliminated ATMOS drop-outs in the Lumagen Demo Theater. If you have audio up-sample enabled in the Trinnov I suggest trying with it set to native.


Where is this specific setting? Thanks.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Where is this specific setting? Thanks.


In the Trinnov IP interface, click the "gears" button to get into setup, and then Home, and then "Sources Config." Set the "Listening Format" entry to "Native" (shown in attached image). Then save the change.

You need to do this for each profile you use.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> In the Trinnov IP interface, click the "gears" button to get into setup, and then Home, and then "Sources Config." Set the "Listening Format" entry to "Native" (shown in attached image). Then save the change.
> 
> You need to do this for each profile you use.
> View attachment 3232292


That just gives you a 7.1 bed channel config?


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> That just gives you a 7.1 bed channel config?


In the Altitude IP interface ATMOS reports as ATMOS, and DTS HD reports as DTS HD. The meters show all appropriate ATMOS channels have audio. I have meters showing the source. So, all is as I expect it to be.


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> In the Altitude IP interface ATMOS reports as ATMOS, and DTS HD reports as DTS HD. The meters show all appropriate ATMOS channels have audio. I have meters showing the source. So, all is as I expect it to be.


That works as long as you are watching native Atmos, but will disable up-mixing of any "regular" Dolby (or DTS) soundtracks - and leave too many of my speakers under utilized


----------



## sjschaff

audioguy said:


> That works as long as you are watching native Atmos, but will disable up-mixing of any "regular" Dolby (or DTS) soundtracks - and leave too many of my speakers under utilized


Have yet to test this, but the Trinnov manual indicates you can change the Listening Format on the fly with the remote using the arrow buttons in the central (middle area). Unfortunately it's not clear if this change is shown on the front display (although I've yet to test). Alternatively, you can use the Menu button on the front of the Altitude and turn the nob till you get to Listening Format and press the Enter button to confirm. Then turn the nob till you find the desired format. Good way to test various video source material until you find the optimal one, and then follow Jim's steps to make this your default in the IP interface.


----------



## SJHT

Hopefully any issue with dropouts has been reported to Trinnov. Should not have to use Native to make them stop. Also, would be interesting if you got dropouts bypassing the Lumagen. This would at least narrow down what is going on…


----------



## SJHT

audioguy said:


> That works as long as you are watching native Atmos, but will disable up-mixing of any "regular" Dolby (or DTS) soundtracks - and leave too many of my speakers under utilized


Interesting as the Alt32 manual shows only Bed 7.1 for native Atmos sources. I maybe reading it wrong! SJ


----------



## audioguy

sjschaff said:


> Have yet to test this, but the Trinnov manual indicates you can change the Listening Format on the fly with the remote using the arrow buttons in the central (middle area). Unfortunately it's not clear if this change is shown on the front display (although I've yet to test). Alternatively, you can use the Menu button on the front of the Altitude and turn the nob till you get to Listening Format and press the Enter button to confirm. Then turn the nob till you find the desired format. Good way to test various video source material until you find the optimal one, and then follow Jim's steps to make this your default in the IP interface.


I almost always have an iPad next to me using a VNC app, when in the theater so that gives me the flexibility to change anything on the fly. My equipment is in another room so the remote won't work for me.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> That works as long as you are watching native Atmos, but will disable up-mixing of any "regular" Dolby (or DTS) soundtracks - and leave too many of my speakers under utilized


I suppose that is a matter of personal preference.

I have always had issues with the way the up-mix sounds, and am liking the Native format the best. Perhaps this is because I used to own a high end two channel system (Jeff Roland amps with Watt Puppy speakers).

Certainly for 2 channel audio, and since Adam Pelz calibrated the Lumagen Demo Theater audio, I always listen to two-channel PCM as native two-channel. Adam gave me both a Native and a Auro 3D selection preset. To me PCM stereo in native two-channel sounds much better with a more open soundstage than the up-mix.

For the limited amount of 5.1 and 7.1 content I have listened to, I have not missed the overhead speakers, and to me the sound is better.

This a personal preference for sure. Something everyone needs to decide for themselves.


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> Not sure if this has anything to do with your dropout issue, but here is a result I found with our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude16:
> 
> About a month ago Trinnov updated my Altitude firmware to the latest public release, since I was way behind on updates. Prior to the update I would get a rare audio drop on DTS HD (which is a reported issue with the Altitude), but I did not have any ATMOS drop-outs. After the update I started to get an occasional dropout for ATMOS content. I did reseat all cables as this often fixes audio dropouts, but this did not help.


I just realized I was not on the current Trinnov firmware version so just updated. Maybe that will help some. Thanks for the reminder!!


----------



## Beamis

Just a heads up if any of you are having any video issues with your Apple TV. I had areas of the picture that had blacks and dark colors that looked smeared and blurred. I just updated Apple TV to the new firmware and the issue is gone! So, no issues with the Lumagen!


----------



## desray2k

This question is for Jim and existing Sony VW760ES/VW885ES 4K laser projector owners. 

For years, we are facing a problem with this near-black posterization issue that plagued the projectors. Here's a YouTube clip from HDTVTest where Vincent explained the "video anomaly" (at the 4 min mark) for HDR playback.






Unfortunately, Sony did not issue any fix on this issue via a firmware update and as days passed, the prospect of getting a new firmware to address this issue becomes bleak. I am wondering if Lumagen, can address this "near black" posterization for HDR content considering Lumagen is a video processor. Any existing owner, do provide your experience or any "fix" that I can use to "minimize" or "eliminate" this issue can share with the rest of us?

TIA...


----------



## thebland

audioguy said:


> That works as long as you are watching native Atmos, but will disable up-mixing of any "regular" Dolby (or DTS) soundtracks - and leave too many of my speakers under utilized


As I am pretty much exclusively KScape, I’m not sure there are many newer releases that have the older DTS or Dolby 5.1 tracks - seems like a good solution and the most movies wouldn’t be affected.


----------



## fatherom

desray2k said:


> This question is for Jim and existing Sony VW760ES/VW885ES 4K laser projector owners.
> 
> For years, we are facing a problem with this near-black posterization issue that plagued the projectors. Here's a YouTube clip from HDTVTest where Vincent explained the "video anomaly" (at the 4 min mark) for HDR playback.
> 
> Unfortunately, Sony did not issue any fix on this issue via a firmware update and as days passed, the prospect of getting a new firmware to address this issue becomes bleak. I am wondering if Lumagen, can address this "near black" posterization for HDR content considering Lumagen is a video processor. Any existing owner, do provide your experience or any "fix" that I can use to "minimize" or "eliminate" this issue can share with the rest of us?
> 
> TIA...


This issue does not occur and is essentially moot when using a Lumagen. When using a Lumagen for the HDR tonemapping, the Sony projector will be in SDR mode, so this issue doesn't occur.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> This question is for Jim and existing Sony VW760ES/VW885ES 4K laser projector owners.
> 
> For years, we are facing a problem with this near-black posterization issue that plagued the projectors. Here's a YouTube clip from HDTVTest where Vincent explained the "video anomaly" (at the 4 min mark) for HDR playback. ... Unfortunately, Sony did not issue any fix on this issue via a firmware update and as days passed, the prospect of getting a new firmware to address this issue becomes bleak. I am wondering if Lumagen, can address this "near black" posterization for HDR content considering Lumagen is a video processor. Any existing owner, do provide your experience or any "fix" that I can use to "minimize" or "eliminate" this issue can share with the rest of us?


I am not sure if we can mitigate noise near black in these Sony projectors or not. If you want to try a test, view content that shows the issue. Then use the Radiance Pro Styles.Style0.HDMI Format.Dither menu to try the dither position at 6, 7, and 8, bits. Frame orientation = Fixed (default).

If 8-bit dither helps, you could use this setting with current release. Make sure to Save any changes you want to keep. 

We have had Radiance Pro owners use 8-bit dither with the Sony VW5000ES and say it mitigates the VW5000 contouring issues. Note that for 4k60 content, output at 9 GHz, the Pro automatically dithers to 8-bits. You can try 6 or 7 as the dither position in this case.

If a 6 or 7 bits dither helps near black, as I suspect it might, there is a chance we can add a feature to mitigate the situation. You can of course leave dither set to 6 or 7 bits, but since the issue is only near black, this is IMO too aggressive of a dither setting for brighter content.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> I am not sure if we can mitigate noise near black in these Sony projectors or not. If you want to try a test, view content that shows the issue. Then use the Radiance Pro Styles.Style0.HDMI Format.Dither menu to try the dither position at 6, 7, and 8, bits. Frame orientation = Fixed (default).
> 
> If 8-bit dither helps, you could use this setting with current release. Make sure to Save any changes you want to keep.
> 
> We have had Radiance Pro owners use 8-bit dither with the Sony VW5000ES and say it mitigates the VW5000 contouring issues. Note that for 4k60 content, output at 9 GHz, the Pro automatically dithers to 8-bits. You can try 6 or 7 as the dither position in this case.
> 
> If a 6 or 7 bits dither helps near black, as I suspect it might, there is a chance we can add a feature to mitigate the situation. You can of course leave dither set to 6 or 7 bits, but since the issue is only near black, this is IMO too aggressive of a dither setting for brighter content.


Just FYI, The issue the OP is describing only affects the Sony 885ES when the projector is in HDR mode.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Just FYI, The issue the OP is describing only affects the Sony 885ES when the projector is in HDR mode.


Setup the way we recommend the projector will never be in HDR mode since the Pro should be set to "output HDR in an SDR container." Based on your comment it sounds like the issue is moot.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> I am not sure if we can mitigate noise near black in these Sony projectors or not. If you want to try a test, view content that shows the issue. Then use the Radiance Pro Styles.Style0.HDMI Format.Dither menu to try the dither position at 6, 7, and 8, bits. Frame orientation = Fixed (default).
> 
> If 8-bit dither helps, you could use this setting with current release. Make sure to Save any changes you want to keep.
> 
> We have had Radiance Pro owners use 8-bit dither with the Sony VW5000ES and say it mitigates the VW5000 contouring issues. Note that for 4k60 content, output at 9 GHz, the Pro automatically dithers to 8-bits. You can try 6 or 7 as the dither position in this case.
> 
> If a 6 or 7 bits dither helps near black, as I suspect it might, there is a chance we can add a feature to mitigate the situation. You can of course leave dither set to 6 or 7 bits, but since the issue is only near black, this is IMO too aggressive of a dither setting for brighter content.


Thanks Jim. I'll try out your suggestion. If Lumagen Radiance Pro can "resolve" this...it will enhance the intrinsic value for both the Sony laser projectors as well as the RP.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Setup the way we recommend the projector will never be in HDR mode since the Pro should be set to "output HDR in an SDR container." Based on your comment it sounds like the issue is moot.


Yes, if we setup using the SDR 2020 / P3 container, I will not experience this issue. But there are some merits in certain kind of 4K HDR content that I can see using HDR - e.g. documentaries shot in 4K/60, HDR mode really brings out the best of what this projector is truly capable of. Hence I would like to have the flexibility to switch between SDR and HDR.


----------



## aguy

desray2k said:


> Yes, if we setup using the SDR 2020 / P3 container, I will not experience this issue. But there are some merits in certain kind of 4K HDR content that I can see using HDR. Hence I would like to have the flexibility to switch between SDR and HDR.


I’m curious what merits you refer to. My understanding is that it’s always better to have the lumagen do the tone mapping but maybe there are situations I’m not familiar with where it’s bettter for the projector to do the tone mapping? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

fatherom said:


> Just FYI, The issue the OP is describing only affects the Sony 885ES when the projector is in HDR mode.


Interesting...I thought 760ES also has the same "posterization" issue? Considering that both 760ES and 870 are pretty similar in terms of the optics and on-board VP, how is 760ES not seeing this "issue"?


----------



## desray2k

aguy said:


> I’m curious what merits you refer to. My understanding is that it’s always better to have the lumagen do the tone mapping but maybe there are situations I’m not familiar with where it’s bettter for the projector to do the tone mapping?


Edited my post. Some of the Disney Plus 4K documentaries really shine with HDR turned on. One such one is the Will Smith's Welcome to Earth series.


----------



## aguy

desray2k said:


> Edited my post. Some of the Disney Plus 4K documentaries really shine with HDR turned on. One such one is the Will Smith's Welcome to Earth series.


With the lumagen doing tone mapping you would still be playing HDR from Disney plus 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

Here are 2 still shots taken from the Avengers End Game with Lumagen RP DTM. The top is in SDR-P3 while the bottom one is SDR2020 with HDR turned "on". Look at so many details in the clouds.


----------



## Ilushka85

jrp said:


> In the Trinnov IP interface, click the "gears" button to get into setup, and then Home, and then "Sources Config." Set the "Listening Format" entry to "Native" (shown in attached image). Then save the change.
> 
> You need to do this for each profile you use.
> View attachment 3232292


I’m wired with Trinnov before lumagen and had a drop out like this with kscape tonight. Changing to native resolved it !


----------



## aguy

desray2k said:


> Here are 2 still shots taken from the Avengers End Game with Lumagen RP DTM. The top is in SDR-P3 while the bottom one is SDR2020 with HDR turned "on". Look at so many details in the clouds.


I agree something is wrong with the picture at the top. I’m not sure what you mean by sdr2020 with “ HDR “ turned on. 

Would be useful to see the lumagen menu with input and output. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

aguy said:


> I agree something is wrong with the picture at the top. I’m not sure what you mean by sdr2020 with “ HDR “ turned on.


Color Gamut in SDR 2020 container and HDR flag "On" in the RP.


----------



## aguy

desray2k said:


> Color Gamut in SDR 2020 container and HDR flag "On" in the RP.


My understanding is that you are sending sdr to the Sony projector in that case. If I recall the HDR flag is for jvc projectors so it triggers the projector to use the bt2020 setting with the correct gamma profile. I didn’t think it makes a difference with the Sony projectors. Again I could be wrong. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark Burton

SJHT said:


> Hopefully any issue with dropouts has been reported to Trinnov. Should not have to use Native to make them stop. Also, would be interesting if you got dropouts bypassing the Lumagen. This would at least narrow down what is going on…


No trinnov owners outside of using the lumagen or bypassing the audio on the lumagen have reported any drop outs?


----------



## MDesigns

desray2k said:


> Here are 2 still shots taken from the Avengers End Game with Lumagen RP DTM. The top is in SDR-P3 while the bottom one is SDR2020 with HDR turned "on". Look at so many details in the clouds.


Is your projector using P3 or BT2020 color profile in these pics? Did you change projector settings between the photos?

Lumagen info page with the projector settings would probably get you more help from the experts here. Sounds more like a confusion with the settings than the need for "HDR".


----------



## Clark Burk

aguy said:


> I agree something is wrong with the picture at the top. I’m not sure what you mean by sdr2020 with “ HDR “ turned on.
> 
> Would be useful to see the lumagen menu with input and output.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe the projector or TV is using additional tone mapping by reading the HDR flag??


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> Here are 2 still shots taken from the Avengers End Game with Lumagen RP DTM. The top is in SDR-P3 while the bottom one is SDR2020 with HDR turned "on". Look at so many details in the clouds.


In each of the cases above, are you setting the projector to a colourspace matching the output (ie a close match for P3 or 2020 with 2.4 gamma), or are you creating a 3DLUT to match the display capabilities to P3 /2020?


----------



## fatherom

desray2k said:


> Interesting...I thought 760ES also has the same "posterization" issue? Considering that both 760ES and 870 are pretty similar in terms of the optics and on-board VP, how is 760ES not seeing this "issue"?


It affects both. I was just typing quickly and was using 885es as a shorthand for both projectors. They are in fact the same projector.


----------



## fatherom

desray2k said:


> Color Gamut in SDR 2020 container and HDR flag "On" in the RP.


Doesn’t this essentially result in double tone mapping? (Which is undesirable)


----------



## Peule_P

fatherom said:


> Doesn’t this essentially result in double tone mapping? (Which is undesirable)


not if you set a Power Gamma (e.g. 2.4) in your ‘HDR’ profile in the projector.


----------



## fatherom

Peule_P said:


> not if you set a Power Gamma (e.g. 2.4) in your ‘HDR’ profile in the projector.


Guess I don't fully follow (maybe others can explain). Regardless of the gamma setting, the projector itself is still in an HDR "mode" after receiving tone-mapped values from the lumagen. The projector, being in an HDR "mode", will still apply its own internal tonemapping, from what I understand.

Edit: keep in mind we're talking about the Sony 885ES, which doesn't deal with the HDR flag in the same (flexible) way that the JVC projectors do.


----------



## Peule_P

fatherom said:


> Guess I don't fully follow (maybe others can explain). Regardless of the gamma setting, the projector itself is still in an HDR "mode" after receiving tone-mapped values from the lumagen. The projector, being in an HDR "mode", will still apply its own internal tonemapping, from what I understand.
> 
> Edit: keep in mind we're talking about the Sony 885ES, which doesn't deal with the HDR flag in the same (flexible) way that the JVC projectors do.


Can't comment on Sony specifically and how it deals with something if you set the HDR flag to ON, but on JVC you can use it to steer 2 different profiles, e.g. SDR content uses a profile with lamp low and HDR content is sent to the projector as SDR2020 (with the HDR flag set to ON in the Lumagen) auto-switches the JVC to it's 'HDR profile' where you have disabled tonemapping (to avoid double tonemapping as you mention) and use a static power Gamma and can use different settings like lamp high and so on.

Sure other users can comment on Sony, sorry for any confusion


----------



## chasiliff

Could an rs1/2/3000 or RS2100/3100/4100 owner please refer me to a post or site that shows setting up your projector to set an sdr2020 mode that the projector will then auto select when it sees the Lumagen HDR flag. I have rs3100.

I have set up an sdr2020 for user 2 on JVC, set Lumagen up but cannot have JVC auto select for both normal sdr and then sdr2020 with appropriate gamma when fed Lumagen’s SDR2020. (JVC keeps wanting to use an HDR picture mode and I only have user 4/5/6 as my modes to work with.

Thanks!


----------



## chasiliff

I found the pro setup instructions so now have sdr autoconversion set. Simple set and forget now!


----------



## DVD MAN

Kris Deering said:


> I have no idea if it is a meter issue. I am just saying that if a display is not capable of hitting a color point (undersaturated), a LUT is not going to help that. A LUT can only work on the colors the projector CAN do, not what it can't. If you are seeing some colors come up short, it may be a limitation of the projector. With the NX series I'd say that about 99% of them come up short in green when tracking P3, so that is not surprising.


Hi Kris, I guess its a limitation of the PJ. It seems to also affect SDR 709 the same way.
Thanks


----------



## oldvinyl

I am using 082621 firmware in Lumagen 4242 with a JVC RS4500. It was installed and calibrated by Kris, so I am confident setup is ok. My question is whether there is some way to get Netflix/Amazon/AppleTV streamed content brighter (more light)? As compared with an 4K UHD disk from Oppo-205, streaming looks dimmer (The Expanse, Altered Carbon). Oddly, if I pause a streamed video, it will momentarily get brighter in the paused frame. When video resumes, it gets dimmer. No video or audio dropouts. Overall, the picture and audio is superb.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Here are 2 still shots taken from the Avengers End Game with Lumagen RP DTM. The top is in SDR-P3 while the bottom one is SDR2020 with HDR turned "on". Look at so many details in the clouds.


There are issues in both pictures IMO. I have to say _both_ the images look wrong (but it might be the photo rather than how they look in person).

You should not compare output as P3 versus Rec 2020 unless you have two calibrated memories - one for each. If you have a P3 calibration in this memory you should not send 2020, and vice versa. I do not know if this is the case or not.

You should _never_ send the HDR flag to a Sony using a Radiance Pro setup as SDR2020 (or SDR709). With the HDR flag sent, the Sony is interpreting what the Pro is sending as Gamma 2.4, as Bt.2084 Gamma. Totally wrong.

I put this frame (as close as I could get) up in the Lumagen Demo theater. I have to say it looks better than either picture (might be the photos). In the second image ("HDR flag") I see a lack of detail in the tree bark (you might see it in person of course). The bark detail should be easy to see as it is in the Lumagen theater. The distant hills should not be as bright as they are in the first image.

The top photo does appear to be missing cloud detail versus the Lumagen theater, but the bottom (HDR mode) picture cloud detail look too much for real clouds in this scene. For the "HDR flag" scene the excessive contrast in the clouds is caused by the miss-match between 2.4 Gamma out of the Radiance Pro and the Sony being told the Gamma is Bt.2084 by the HDRFlag.

====

My conclusions are:

Since you reference "P3" I assume you have had a calibrator do a 3D LUT with the Pro output Colorspace = P3. If not you should use the CMS1 output Colorspace set to SDR2020.

You should use SDR2020 output colorspace in the Pro (or P3 is you have a 3D LUT calibration to P3), _with HDR flag off_, and then adjust your settings so they are optimal.

Make sure your projector is in SDR Rec 2020 mode with Gamma of 2.4 (or higher if you prefer. See below) if the Pro output CMS1 Colorspace is SDR2020. If you output CMS1 Colorspace = SDRP3, the projector needs to be in a "wide Gamut" mode. Generally you have to select a 709 input format for SDRP3 output from the Pro to work correctly, and a 3D LUT calibration is essential in this case.

I suspect you need to increase your Max Light value.

You may want to consider increasing the Gamma setting in the projector if you like the higher contrast look of your "HDR Flag" picture. Or you can increase Gamma_Factor in CMS1 to increase effective Gamma. This would increase the dark to bright contrast some but not too much.

Work with your calibrator to optimize settings. Or you can contact the lumagen.com support by email.


----------



## Erod

How much advantage does the source direct feature of the Reavon players impact (or not) the image quality from the Lumagen versus one of the Panasonic players? Or, is this more theoretical than realized PQ?


----------



## Clark Burk

Erod said:


> How much advantage does the source direct feature of the Reavon players impact (or not) the image quality from the Lumagen versus one of the Panasonic players? Or, is this more theoretical than realized PQ?


I think it's more a convenience factor. The Panasonic can be set to deliver the same picture but you would have to go into the menus to set the parameters when you switched to watching a different kind of disc such as switching between a 1080p Blu-ray and a UHD. That is unless you wanted to just have the Panasonic upscale your Blu-rays to 4k instead of the Lumagen.


----------



## DVD MAN

jrp said:


> There are issues in both pictures IMO. I have to say _both_ the images look wrong (but it might be the photo rather than how they look in person).
> 
> You should not compare output as P3 versus Rec 2020 unless you have two calibrated memories - one for each. If you have a P3 calibration in this memory you should not send 2020, and vice versa. I do not know if this is the case or not.
> 
> You should _never_ send the HDR flag to a Sony using a Radiance Pro setup as SDR2020 (or SDR709). With the HDR flag sent, the Sony is interpreting what the Pro is sending as Gamma 2.4, as Bt.2084 Gamma. Totally wrong.
> 
> I put this frame (as close as I could get) up in the Lumagen Demo theater. I have to say it looks better than either picture (might be the photos). In the second image ("HDR flag") I see a lack of detail in the tree bark (you might see it in person of course). The bark detail should be easy to see as it is in the Lumagen theater. The distant hills should not be as bright as they are in the first image.
> 
> The top photo does appear to be missing cloud detail versus the Lumagen theater, but the bottom (HDR mode) picture cloud detail look too much for real clouds in this scene. For the "HDR flag" scene the excessive contrast in the clouds is caused by the miss-match between 2.4 Gamma out of the Radiance Pro and the Sony being told the Gamma is Bt.2084 by the HDRFlag.
> 
> ====
> 
> My conclusions are:
> 
> Since you reference "P3" I assume you have had a calibrator do a 3D LUT with the Pro output Colorspace = P3. If not you should use the CMS1 output Colorspace set to SDR2020.
> 
> You should use SDR2020 output colorspace in the Pro (or P3 is you have a 3D LUT calibration to P3), _with HDR flag off_, and then adjust your settings so they are optimal.
> 
> Make sure your projector is in SDR Rec 2020 mode with Gamma of 2.4 (or higher if you prefer. See below) if the Pro output CMS1 Colorspace is SDR2020. If you output CMS1 Colorspace = SDRP3, the projector needs to be in a "wide Gamut" mode. Generally you have to select a 709 input format for SDRP3 output from the Pro to work correctly, and a 3D LUT calibration is essential in this case.
> 
> I suspect you need to increase your Max Light value.
> 
> You may want to consider increasing the Gamma setting in the projector if you like the higher contrast look of your "HDR Flag" picture. Or you can increase Gamma_Factor in CMS1 to increase effective Gamma. This would increase the dark to bright contrast some but not too much.
> 
> Work with your calibrator to optimize settings. Or you can contact the lumagen.com support by email.


Now I am wondering if I have my set up correct.
I think I do?








Apple TV








Kaleidescape Strato


----------



## jrp

DVD MAN said:


> Now I am wondering if I have my set up correct.
> I think I do?


My post was intended to say I believe you do _not_ have things set up correctly. This could be a calibration issue as well.

We can start a dialog off-line if you email lumagen.com support.


----------



## fatherom

@jrp 

I believe there are two different people posting those Avengers pics.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> There are issues in both pictures IMO. I have to say _both_ the images look wrong (but it might be the photo rather than how they look in person).
> 
> You should not compare output as P3 versus Rec 2020 unless you have two calibrated memories - one for each. If you have a P3 calibration in this memory you should not send 2020, and vice versa. I do not know if this is the case or not.
> 
> You should _never_ send the HDR flag to a Sony using a Radiance Pro setup as SDR2020 (or SDR709). With the HDR flag sent, the Sony is interpreting what the Pro is sending as Gamma 2.4, as Bt.2084 Gamma. Totally wrong.
> 
> I put this frame (as close as I could get) up in the Lumagen Demo theater. I have to say it looks better than either picture (might be the photos). In the second image ("HDR flag") I see a lack of detail in the tree bark (you might see it in person of course). The bark detail should be easy to see as it is in the Lumagen theater. The distant hills should not be as bright as they are in the first image.
> 
> The top photo does appear to be missing cloud detail versus the Lumagen theater, but the bottom (HDR mode) picture cloud detail look too much for real clouds in this scene. For the "HDR flag" scene the excessive contrast in the clouds is caused by the miss-match between 2.4 Gamma out of the Radiance Pro and the Sony being told the Gamma is Bt.2084 by the HDRFlag.
> 
> ====
> 
> My conclusions are:
> 
> Since you reference "P3" I assume you have had a calibrator do a 3D LUT with the Pro output Colorspace = P3. If not you should use the CMS1 output Colorspace set to SDR2020.
> 
> You should use SDR2020 output colorspace in the Pro (or P3 is you have a 3D LUT calibration to P3), _with HDR flag off_, and then adjust your settings so they are optimal.
> 
> Make sure your projector is in SDR Rec 2020 mode with Gamma of 2.4 (or higher if you prefer. See below) if the Pro output CMS1 Colorspace is SDR2020. If you output CMS1 Colorspace = SDRP3, the projector needs to be in a "wide Gamut" mode. Generally you have to select a 709 input format for SDRP3 output from the Pro to work correctly, and a 3D LUT calibration is essential in this case.
> 
> I suspect you need to increase your Max Light value.
> 
> You may want to consider increasing the Gamma setting in the projector if you like the higher contrast look of your "HDR Flag" picture. Or you can increase Gamma_Factor in CMS1 to increase effective Gamma. This would increase the dark to bright contrast some but not too much.
> 
> Work with your calibrator to optimize settings. Or you can contact the lumagen.com support by email.


Wow Jim, speechless. Thanks for dissecting the screenshots and telling us what we should be looking out for. Definitely learned a great deal from your detailed explanation. I am wondering if it is possible for you to post what a well calibrated image for that "particular scene" should look like and share with everyone. This will be a great opportunity for us to learn. 

Of course, I understand this is more of a calibration rather than "issue" with the RP, hence if you prefer to take it offline, I can totally understand. Truly appreciate your insights on this. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> How much advantage does the source direct feature of the Reavon players impact (or not) the image quality from the Lumagen versus one of the Panasonic players? Or, is this more theoretical than realized PQ?


I believe this is something you need to judge for yourself.

Find some quality HD 1080p24 content with lots of detail. The 1080p Spears and Muncil test disc montage is one example. Set the player output to native (1080p24), and then set to 4k24 output, and compare the two output modes through the Radiance Pro. Judge which looks better.

Note: Edge enhancement and Darbee settings will change the image. So you might want to try with various settings.

Note: Darbee is only available for 1080p24 into the Pro (not 4k). While I turn Darbee off, having Darbee available makes a difference for some Radiance Pro owners. There owners therefore leave the player in "source direct" mode.

In the past those who have done this have told me they prefer the Radiance Pro do the scaling because it is a significant increase in image quality. The Reavon is said to use the same chipset as the Oppo 203. IMO the Pro scaling is noticeably better than the Oppo. So, if it is the same chipset, I expect you will prefer "source direct" output from the Reavon.


----------



## desray2k

fatherom said:


> @jrp
> 
> I believe there are two different people posting those Avengers pics.


Yes. The first 2 screenshots were taken by me. It was from Disney Plus streamed from my Apple TV while the other 2 screenshots were from another member, DVD MAN.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

DVD MAN said:


> Now I am wondering if I have my set up correct.
> I think I do?
> View attachment 3232867
> 
> Apple TV
> View attachment 3232870
> 
> Kaleidescape Strato


Interesting, it seems like the image will change ever so slightly in details when used on a different platform even though both sources are connected to the RP. I guess it has something to do with the bitrate. The Kaleidescape Strato should have the best image since it is akin to a regular copy of the 4K UHD disc itself. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> @jrp
> 
> I believe there are two different people posting those Avengers pics.


Missed that the second post was form a different poster. Sorry for the confusion.

DVD MAN: The only projectors that works with SDR2020 out, and asserting the HDR Flag (reported on Info Pg 1 as "SDH2020") are current JVC models. Even for the JVC projectors you now need to load a 2.4 Gamma LUT into the projector for this to work.

You should _not_ assert the HDR flag while outputting SDR2020 (or SDR709) for any other brand of projector, or any TVs.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> The only projectors that works with SDR2020 out, and asserting the HDR Flag (reported on Info Pg 1 as "SDH2020") are current JVC models. Even for the JVC projectors you now need to load a 2.4 Gamma LUT into the projector for this to work.
> 
> You should _not_ assert the HDR flag while outputting SDR2020 (or SDR709) for any other brand of projector, or any TVs.


Thanks for the confirmation on JVC projector.


Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

My conclusion after looking at the various inputs from members (up to this point) are:

1) The capabilities of the display (in this case, projector) in outputting Rec 2020 will affect the final results of your pics. Some projector like Sony are skewed towards more "magenta" while JVC takes in a "greenish" hue before calibration. We need to invest a little time in calibrating to a proper D65. In gist, in spite of our best efforts to calibrate to reference level, we will still see some degree of differences in colors and details. It's hard to say which is more accurate. So long the calibration is done right.

2) Different sources (streaming, physical disc, media player, HDFury EDID spoofer for LLDV) can alter the image (colors and tone mapping) even though they are connected to the RP. For instance, day a media player like Zidoo Z9X (for those not familiar, this is a media player that is able to do LLDV using VS10 engine from Dolby). If we feed this LLDV (it does DTM at source level) and then output through the RP and then to the display, the resulting image will be different compared to source direct. 

3) You can alter the image to suit your liking (preference Vs reference). For instance a more contrasty look, we can play around with the gamma factor on the RP while ensuring digital black and black levels still able to discern shadow details properly. 

Correct me if my understanding is flawed. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> My conclusion after looking at the various inputs from members (up to this point) are:
> 
> 1) The capabilities of the display (in this case, projector) in outputting Rec 2020 will affect the final results of your pics. ...
> 
> 2) Different sources (streaming, physical disc, media player, HDFury EDID spoofer for LLDV) can alter the image (colors and tone mapping) even though they are connected to the RP. ...
> 
> 3) You can alter the image to suit your liking (preference Vs reference). ....


1) The display capability (Gamut range and brightness) play a major roll in what you will see. For projectors in the 60 to 130 nit range, there are significant tradeoffs needed to display content mastered at 4000 nits. The Radiance Pro DTM IMO does the best preserving the original intent of the producer in this case. However, each Radiance Pro owner will need to choose between more brightness, and more color saturation. As mentioned before, I use _The Meg_ at 1:08:00 an on to set this balance by changing the Max Light in the HDR Setup menu (left arrow, or the "HDR Setup" button on the new remote).

2) If the compressed content is the same data as on the disc, it should look the same from any source (I am ignoring DV "spoofers" for this post). However, streaming services, get "mezzanine data" and compress the content to meet their streaming bandwidth and storage budgets. Kaleidescape makes a point of saying they get the mezzanine data and can therefore provide better then UHD Bluray disc quality. This mezzanine-data-to-compressed-data process plays a major role in the quality of the end result.

3) While I am very vocal on supporting the director's intent, there is certainly a place for preference over reference. An an example, for SD content movies I generally prefer a Gamma of 2.6 range verses the Bt.1886 standard (roughly Gamma 2.4). This gives the content more contrast, which I prefer. While this is a minor variance from _reference_ it is my _preference_.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> 1) The Radiance Pro DTM IMO does the best preserving the original intent of the producer in this case. However, each Radiance Pro owner will need to choose between more brightness, and more color saturation...
> 
> 2) If the compressed content is the same data as on the disc, it should look the same from any source (I am ignoring DV "spoofers" for this post). However, streaming services, get "mezzanine data" and compress the content to meet their streaming bandwidth and storage budgets. Kaleidescape makes a point of saying they get the mezzanine data and can therefore provide better then UHD Bluray disc quality. This mezzanine-data-to-compressed-data process plays a major role in the quality of the end result.
> 
> 3) While I am very vocal on supporting the director's intent, there is certainly a place for preference over reference. An an example, for SD content movies I generally prefer a Gamma of 2.6 range verses the Bt.1886 standard (roughly Gamma 2.4). This gives the content more contrast, which I prefer. While this is a minor variance from _reference_ it is my _preference_.


Thanks Jim for taking the time to explain all these stuff. Appreciated. 

1) For DTM, I agreed it is a choice for the user to choose between a balance of specular highlights in bright scenes and preserving the shadow details in dark scenes. That's why Oppo player has this choice of various modes for HDR settings. 

2) Mezzanine data? This is the first time I've heard of this. Learn something new today. I assume this is the "uncompressed" bitrate before compression is introduced to stream the content over to the viewers at home.

3) Interesting you mentioned about BT1886 (near 2.35) and Gamma 2.4. As I'm using Chromapure for my display calibration, I was told by Tom Huffman to use 2.2 or BT1886 for SDR calibration while you would advocate the use of 2.4. If I use 2.4, I will get posterisation in near black levels for SDR content but if I use BT1886, the image turns out fine. I'm not sure what's going on here but I have to follow Tom on this one if I want to get SDR calibration on point. After calibration the DE delta is around 1.3 which is very impressive...


Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Mark_H

jrp said:


> preference over reference


Love that! Neatly encapsulates so many of life's subjective experiences.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark_H said:


> Love that! Neatly encapsulates so many of life's subjective experiences.


And among them, the wars in the audio community over measurement versus subjective perception.


----------



## arsenalfc89

Does the Lumagen have a game mode for 4K gaming?


----------



## SJHT

arsenalfc89 said:


> Does the Lumagen have a game mode for 4K gaming?


Yes it does. Do a search in this thread for "game mode" and you will find info about it. Some directly from the owner of the company. SJ


----------



## arsenalfc89

SJHT said:


> Yes it does. Do a search in this thread for "game mode" and you will find info about it. Some directly from the owner of the company. SJ


Awesome will do and thank you.


----------



## sjerseydad22

Is there a consensus as to which streaming device ekes out the optimal performance with a Radiance Pro?


----------



## Kris Deering

sjerseydad22 said:


> Is there a consensus as to which streaming device ekes out the optimal performance with a Radiance Pro?


I like the AppleTV 4K. With the Roku there is still some issues with proper frame rate output with some apps. With the Shield you have to do a bunch of backdoor stuff to get native frame rate and even that doesn't work all the time. The only issue with the ATV is it scales the output to 4K for all sources, but most of what I watch is 4K already so it doesn't seem to matter most of the time.


----------



## docrog

sjerseydad22 said:


> Is there a consensus as to which streaming device ekes out the optimal performance with a Radiance Pro?


I've never encountered a frame rate issue with Roku. So, if you have the ability to have 2 inputs for streaming (instead of one) a consideration might be to purchase 2 Roku devices (using one set for 1080p output and the other at 4k). That way, the RP could provide improved upscaling for legacy content. Roku streaming sticks (especially older 1080p models) are really inexpensive. You'd just have to remember to choose the output device which matches your current content.


----------



## sjerseydad22

docrog said:


> I've never encountered a frame rate issue with Roku. So, if you have the ability to have 2 inputs for streaming (instead of one) a consideration might be to purchase 2 Roku devices (using one set for 1080p output and the other at 4k). That way, the RP could provide improved upscaling for legacy content. Roku streaming sticks (especially older 1080p models) are really inexpensive. You'd just have to remember to choose the output device which matches your current content. I believe that a potential Roku downside is that you'd only be able to access your iTunes library (if you have one) is by subscribing to AppleTV+.


As an aside, this is what I love about these Forums. They can be SO incredibly helpful. For example, it never occurred to me to simply buy two Rokus and have one dedicated to 1080p and another to 4k. Brilliant idea.

I'm in a dedicated theater so video only, no iTunes or audio playback. 

I was fortunate to have a fellow Forum member sell me his unused 4242 which I received yesterday and am now setting up, testing out, putting it through its paces to learn what it can do.


----------



## sjschaff

Kris Deering said:


> I like the AppleTV 4K. With the Roku there is still some issues with proper frame rate output with some apps. With the Shield you have to do a bunch of backdoor stuff to get native frame rate and even that doesn't work all the time. The only issue with the ATV is it scales the output to 4K for all sources, but most of what I watch is 4K already so it doesn't seem to matter most of the time.


Are there limitations on container support or passing file formats via the ATV4K? I’ve lots of Mastroska, ISO, BDVM containers and the HEVC X.265 codec (among others). Does a “passthrough” function for video/audio exist? Or is much of this enabled via an app such as Infuse? I’m also wondering, apart from Dolby Vision rips, does the ATV 4K limit any audio codecs passing to audio processors?


----------



## docrog

sjerseydad22 said:


> As an aside, this is what I love about these Forums. They can be SO incredibly helpful. For example, it never occurred to me to simply buy two Rokus and have one dedicated to 1080p and another to 4k. Brilliant idea.
> 
> I'm in a dedicated theater so video only, no iTunes or audio playback.
> 
> I was fortunate to have a fellow Forum member sell me his unused 4242 which I received yesterday and am now setting up, testing out, putting it through its paces to learn what it can do.


I'm glad that you liked the concept of 2 streamers. The only potential issue would be if your RP inputs were otherwise fully occupied, not allowing for a 2nd streamer. This isn't a problem for me because all of my video sources go to my AVR (which is the switching device) and only a single video feed goes to the RP. I have more than enough inputs that way.


----------



## matty1137

docrog said:


> I'm glad that you liked the concept of 2 streamers. The only potential issue would be if your RP inputs were otherwise fully occupied, not allowing for a 2nd streamer. This isn't a problem for me because all of my video sources go to my AVR (which is the switching device) and only a single video feed goes to the RP. I have more than enough inputs that way.
> 
> The reason that I mentioned iTunes is that, although the bulk of my digital codes are able to be accessed by Vudu, I have previously purchased digital video codes that only redeemed in iTunes. They require either an ATV4K or AppleTV+ subscription to view since there isn't a Roku app (streaming channel) available for iTunes. I wasn't referring to iTunes audio content.


Are you sure about that? I’m using the AppleTV app on my Roku Ultra, and I can access all my iTunes media. I’m not subscribed to AppleTV+.


----------



## docrog

matty1137 said:


> Are you sure about that? I’m using the AppleTV app on my Roku Ultra, and I can access all my iTunes media. I’m not subscribed to AppleTV+.


Thanks, so much, for correcting that inaccuracy on my part. I've deleted that statement from prior posts. I just checked and, indeed, I could access my purchased iTunes video content via the "LIBRARY" button on the AppleTV Roku app, despite no longer having an active AppleTV+ subscription. That's a great new find for me, as it's unlikely that I'd need to access the (less user friendly) ATV4K in the future.


----------



## sjerseydad22

docrog said:


> I'm glad that you liked the concept of 2 streamers. The only potential issue would be if your RP inputs were otherwise fully occupied, not allowing for a 2nd streamer. This isn't a problem for me because all of my video sources go to my AVR (which is the switching device) and only a single video feed goes to the RP. I have more than enough inputs that way.
> 
> The reason that I mentioned iTunes is that, although the bulk of my digital codes are able to be accessed by Vudu, I have previously purchased digital video codes that only redeemed in iTunes. They require either an ATV4K or AppleTV+ subscription to view since there isn't a Roku app (streaming channel) available for iTunes. I wasn't referring to iTunes audio content.


Ah. Right. Understood. I'm coming from an HTPC/madVR experience and would like to avoid any downloading/ripping of content, so the iTunes/AppleTV+ info is good to know.

Re the inputs, I was following what Mr. Peterson describes in the _Owner's Manual_ as the "most common configuration", and thus attaching an OPPO and a single Roku4k to the RP to "guarantee[] that the receiver does not degrade the video . . . and minimize the need to configure the RP". My AVR is a Denon 8500. I didn't want to take any chances of video degradation even though the Denon claims it can pass-through cleanly but I can certainly try that configuration too. Although, with only the OPPO and Roku I still have two additional inputs available on the RP.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> I've never encountered a frame rate issue with Roku. So, if you have the ability to have 2 inputs for streaming (instead of one) a consideration might be to purchase 2 Roku devices (using one set for 1080p output and the other at 4k). That way, the RP could provide improved upscaling for legacy content. Roku streaming sticks (especially older 1080p models) are really inexpensive. You'd just have to remember to choose the output device which matches your current content.


Try and play 24p content from the Netflix app and tell me what happens. I’ve done two calibrations recently with Rokus and they always frame convert to 60p.


----------



## Kris Deering

sjschaff said:


> Are there limitations on container support or passing file formats via the ATV4K? I’ve lots of Mastroska, ISO, BDVM containers and the HEVC X.265 codec (among others). Does a “passthrough” function for video/audio exist? Or is much of this enabled via an app such as Infuse? I’m also wondering, apart from Dolby Vision rips, does the ATV 4K limit any audio codecs passing to audio processors?


For pass thru playing I believe the Shield is the streamer of choice. I am referring to a streaming box for streaming apps. Not bootleg and ISO playback.


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Try and play 24p content from the Netflix app and tell me what happens. I’ve done two calibrations recently with Rokus and they always frame convert to 60p.


Kris, would you kindly provide me with representative Netflix 24p content and I'll check to see what the RP indicates. Thanks


----------



## docrog

sjerseydad22 said:


> Ah. Right. Understood. I'm coming from an HTPC/madVR experience and would like to avoid any downloading/ripping of content, so the iTunes/AppleTV+ info is good to know.
> 
> Re the inputs, I was following what Mr. Peterson describes in the _Owner's Manual_ as the "most common configuration", and thus attaching an OPPO and a single Roku4k to the RP to "guarantee[] that the receiver does not degrade the video . . . and minimize the need to configure the RP". My AVR is a Denon 8500. I didn't want to take any chances of video degradation even though the Denon claims it can pass-through cleanly but I can certainly try that configuration too. Although, with only the OPPO and Roku I still have two additional inputs available on the RP.


According to 2 highly respected professional calibrators, there is no evidence of video degradation using my Denon 6700 AVR prior to the RP. Not to re-hash the extensive prior discussions regarding the optimal video chain, one significant advantage for me of using the Denon as the AV switcher is that I maintain access to the Denon's GUI, a feature that's essentially lost if your video sources initially go through the RP (unless you add a step by running a separate feed to your display from your Denon in order to obtain the GUI by toggling the display's inputs). Neither the ATV4K or Roku streamers have dedicated audio outputs, so your audio will be routed through the RP possibly complicating AV sync without having access to the Denon GUI (if that matters to you).


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Kris, would you kindly provide me with representative Netflix 24p content and I'll check to see what the RP indicates. Thanks


Almost everything is 24p, but you can search for "Test patterns" and get some content which is categorized by framerate.


----------



## alv

actually most things are 23.98 Hz, Netflix actually uses 24Hz often.


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## bobof

alv said:


> actually most things are 23.98 Hz, Netflix actually uses 24Hz often.


Am aware, but was using the same "24p" as the OP. If we're getting pedantic, you are missing a few decimal places...


----------



## sjerseydad22

docrog said:


> According to 2 highly respected professional calibrators, there is no evidence of video degradation using my Denon 6700 AVR prior to the RP. Not to re-hash the extensive prior discussions regarding the optimal video chain, one significant advantage for me of using the Denon as the AV switcher is that I maintain access to the Denon's GUI, a feature that's essentially lost if your video sources initially go through the RP (unless you add a step by running a separate feed to your display from your Denon in order to obtain the GUI by toggling the display's inputs). Neither the ATV4K or Roku streamers have dedicated audio outputs, so your audio will be routed through the RP possibly complicating AV sync without having access to the Denon GUI (if that matters to you).


Also good to know. I'll experiment.


----------



## scrowe

sjerseydad22 said:


> As an aside, this is what I love about these Forums. They can be SO incredibly helpful. For example, it never occurred to me to simply buy two Rokus and have one dedicated to 1080p and another to 4k. Brilliant idea.
> 
> I'm in a dedicated theater so video only, no iTunes or audio playback.
> 
> I was fortunate to have a fellow Forum member sell me his unused 4242 which I received yesterday and am now setting up, testing out, putting it through its paces to learn what it can do.


it woulld be worth checking first if just adding a 2nd memory on the Roku input and limiting the EIDE to 1080p forces the Roku to output 1080p. Tgis is what many of us do for AppleTV and Pananasonic Blu-ray. If you know you are watching native 1080p content select that memory, and the Lumagen does the 4K upscaling to display, rather than the inferior built in roku chipset.


----------



## riddle

Hi,does HDR flag is working on the new JVC NZ series with Lumagen. I feel like the pictures is a little different from the N7 what I remember. I use for HDR custom 4, color profile is on DCI, color temp is HDR10 and custom gamma is imported gamma 2,4. If i switch color temp to custom with correction value i dont see no diferent in the picture. Didn't i missing anything?

Thank you...


----------



## sjerseydad22

scrowe said:


> it woulld be worth checking first if just adding a 2nd memory on the Roku input and limiting the EIDE to 1080p forces the Roku to output 1080p. Tgis is what many of us do for AppleTV and Pananasonic Blu-ray. If you know you are watching native 1080p content select that memory, and the Lumagen does the 4K upscaling to display, rather than the inferior built in roku chipset.


Wow, another excellent idea!


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## sjerseydad22

OPPO 203 owners/users here, is there a consensus among you as to optimum settings (general, top-view) when feeding to your RP?


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Thanks Jim for taking the time to explain all these stuff. Appreciated.
> 
> 1) For DTM, I agreed it is a choice for the user to choose between a balance of specular highlights in bright scenes and preserving the shadow details in dark scenes. That's why Oppo player has this choice of various modes for HDR settings.
> 
> 2) Mezzanine data? This is the first time I've heard of this. Learn something new today. I assume this is the "uncompressed" bitrate before compression is introduced to stream the content over to the viewers at home.
> 
> 3) Interesting you mentioned about BT1886 (near 2.35) and Gamma 2.4. As I'm using Chromapure for my display calibration, I was told by Tom Huffman to use 2.2 or BT1886 for SDR calibration while you would advocate the use of 2.4. If I use 2.4, I will get posterization in near black levels for SDR content but if I use BT1886, the image turns out fine. I'm not sure what's going on here but I have to follow Tom on this one if I want to get SDR calibration on point. After calibration the DE delta is around 1.3 which is very impressive...


1) The Oppo has their tone mapping control because it is a static tone mapping that needs adjustment for different content with different MaxCLL. Since the Radiance Pro has Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM), once you set the Radiance Pro Max Light you should not have to change the setting for different content. The Radiance Pro DTM controls are meant to be "set once and forget." I use the same Max Light and DTM settings for all content in the Lumagen Demo Theater and am very happy with the results. 

2) _Mezzanine Data_ is an intermediate data format designed to allow master-level content to be sent out to different companies so they can choose their own compression quality settings. For example, Kaleidescape, since it is pre-downloaded and hard-drive based, _could_ choose to use less compression and so have higher quality for major titles. Then streaming services can choose higher compression levels (as they seem to do) to use less hard-drive space, and so be able to stream to more customers.

3) As defined in ITU-R BT.1886, the Gamma in the equation is 2.40, with an offset to compensate for how good the black level is for a particular display or projector. It is currently recommended that SDR be calibrated to Bt.1886. If the projector has a good black level this is exceedingly close to Gamma 2.4. You can of course choose your own preference of Gamma 2.2 if you like. Personally I calibrate to Gamma in the 2.4 to 2.6 range.

For the Radiance Pro "HDR in an SDR container" we choose a straight Gamma = 2.4 since it is so close to Bt.1886 for good projectors and TVs. Since with a good black level this is essentially Bt.1886 it makes this an excellent choice. It would actually be fine to choose to calibrate to Bt.1886 for the Pro calibration. If the black level for the projector/TV is not good, this may even be the better choice than straight 2.4 Gamma. IMO you likely need a professional level color probe (e.g. CR-100) to have a calibration result be noticeably different for Gamma 2.4 versus Bt.1886 using calibration software.


----------



## jrp

arsenalfc89 said:


> Does the Lumagen have a game mode for 4K gaming?


To add to the answer you can select Game Mode as described in the Radiance Pro manual here: Lumagen

With 16:9 source aspect and 16:9 output aspect, with Genlock on, the Radiance Pro Game Mode input to output delay is about 3 mS.

If Genlock is off, for 60 Hertz gaming, the input to output delay varies slowly over time between about 3 mS and about 20 mS, since the input and output are not in lock-step.

Note: Game Mode and Genlock are separate functions and selected by different menus as described in the Radiance Pro manual.


----------



## Geof

sjerseydad22 said:


> OPPO 203 owners/users here, is there a consensus among you as to optimum settings (general, top-view) when feeding to your RP?


Source Direct....let the RP do any upscaling.


----------



## arsenalfc89

jrp said:


> To add to the answer you can select Game Mode as described in the Radiance Pro manual here: Lumagen
> 
> With 16:9 source aspect and 16:9 output aspect, with Genlock on, the Radiance Pro Game Mode input to output delay is about 3 mS.
> 
> If Genlock is off, for 60 Hertz gaming, the input to output delay varies slowly over time between about 3 mS and about 20 mS, since the input and output are not in lock-step.
> 
> Note: Game Mode and Genlock are separate functions and selected by different menus as described in the Radiance Pro manual.


I did get a chance to read the whole manual. Awesome that Game Mode is included. Interesting how this device works, so no need to mess with the projector settings anymore besides setting black level, once it’s calibrated via Lumagen (autocal)?


----------



## SJHT

arsenalfc89 said:


> I did get a chance to read the whole manual. Awesome that Game Mode is included. Interesting how this device works, so no need to mess with the projector settings anymore besides setting black level, once it’s calibrated via Lumagen (autocal)?


Not sure which projector you have, but turn off anything that adds delay. My Sony 995 has reduced delay features for gaming. SJ


----------



## arsenalfc89

SJHT said:


> Not sure which projector you have, but turn off anything that adds delay. My Sony 995 has reduced delay features for gaming. SJ


I have the Hisense P1-X Pro and Vava Chroma, both can each full Rec 2020 so not sure if calibration settings will be different in regards to using SDR2020 or HDR2020. But regarding your statement both have a game mode.


----------



## jollyguy23

I am putting together a JVC 3100, DCR-J1 and a lumagen together. 

While I waited for my JVC , I bought a Lumagen from the avs forum and used it on my previous Rs4910 without a lens. My screen is a 235 screen. 

Using tip 16 which is using 235 without lens, I zoomed out the projector to 235, set the LRP output aspect ratio style to 235 and left it here. This way the lumagen automatically took care of any aspect ratio change. 

How do I get the same set up now with a DCR lens in place. I tried reading tip 7 but that shows that for each aspect ratio I have to manually select it from the remote? What do I have to do when I have DCR and want lumagen to automatically switch aspect ratio? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aaron Toulmin

Really you don’t need to do anything. Once you fit the lens and get it focussed and sized properly, just set your screen size on lumagen to 2:35 and that’s it. The lumagen will scale appropriately for your setup then. All automatic.


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## jollyguy23

Hi Aaron, thank you for the reply. I did exactly that and I am not seeing the lens fill the screen. This is what I am trying to figure out what I did wrong PRE lens. 

Can you please tell me before I add the lens, should I have the JVC be in 16:9 mode or in the zoomed 235 mode? Then I assume I add the lens and then set the Lumagen to 235?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karl Maga

jollyguy23 said:


> I am putting together a JVC 3100, DCR-J1 and a lumagen together.
> 
> While I waited for my JVC , I bought a Lumagen from the avs forum and used it on my previous Rs4910 without a lens. My screen is a 235 screen.
> 
> Using tip 16 which is using 235 without lens, I zoomed out the projector to 235, set the LRP output aspect ratio style to 235 and left it here. This way the lumagen automatically took care of any aspect ratio change.
> 
> How do I get the same set up now with a DCR lens in place. I tried reading tip 7 but that shows that for each aspect ratio I have to manually select it from the remote? What do I have to do when I have DCR and want lumagen to automatically switch aspect ratio?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Aaron Toulmin said:


> Really you don’t need to do anything. Once you fit the lens and get it focussed and sized properly, just set your screen size on lumagen to 2:35 and that’s it. The lumagen will scale appropriately for your setup then. All automatic.


I believe you have to configure the Radiance Pro specifically to adjust output for an anamorphic lens. I can’t tell you how to do it, that’s why I hired @Kris Deering to configure mine.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Karl Maga said:


> I believe you have to configure the Radiance Pro specifically to adjust output for an anamorphic lens. I can’t tell you how to do it, that’s why I hired @Kris Deering to configure mine.


I have an anamorphic lens and that’s all you need to do.


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## Kris Deering

jollyguy23 said:


> Hi Aaron, thank you for the reply. I did exactly that and I am not seeing the lens fill the screen. This is what I am trying to figure out what I did wrong PRE lens.
> 
> Can you please tell me before I add the lens, should I have the JVC be in 16:9 mode or in the zoomed 235 mode? Then I assume I add the lens and then set the Lumagen to 235?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





jollyguy23 said:


> Hi Aaron, thank you for the reply. I did exactly that and I am not seeing the lens fill the screen. This is what I am trying to figure out what I did wrong PRE lens.
> 
> Can you please tell me before I add the lens, should I have the JVC be in 16:9 mode or in the zoomed 235 mode? Then I assume I add the lens and then set the Lumagen to 235?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you are having trouble setting up the lens specifically, go read the install manual which can be downloaded from the Panamorph website. It goes through it and even talks about the JVC. As for the Lumagen, this is why I've said so many times that it is a custom install product. Buying from a random person puts you in a position that you either have to buck up and read the manual and learn how to operate it or hire someone to do the configuration for you (I know a guy) if you want the best results. It is not designed as a pass thru device because then it wouldn't really be a video processor.


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## jollyguy23

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have an anamorphic lens and that’s all you need to do.


Hi Aaron, I am running around in circles without knowing which step I am doing wrong. Here is what I did. 

1. JVC and lumagen connected. Lumagen is set to 1.78

2. I adjust my JVC shift and zoom for pattern 16:9

3. I then install the DCR 

4. Shift and zoom again for the 16:9 pattern

5 Change the lumagen to output 235

This is how my 235 movie ends up. Can you please tell me what I am missing ?











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## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have an anamorphic lens and that’s all you need to do.


For the scaling for the lens, yes. He still needs to setup the appropriate output resolution and then decide whether he wants to use the auto aspect features. So it isn't just put lens in place and change aspect to 2.35. There is definitely more to it than that. But it sounds like he is struggling with the install of the lens and projector, which is outside of the Lumagen setup.


----------



## Kris Deering

jollyguy23 said:


> Hi Aaron, I am running around in circles without knowing which step I am doing wrong. Here is what I did.
> 
> 1. JVC and lumagen connected. Lumagen is set to 1.78
> 
> 2. I adjust my JVC shift and zoom for pattern 16:9
> 
> 3. I then install the DCR
> 
> 4. Shift and zoom again for the 16:9 pattern
> 
> 5 Change the lumagen to output 235
> 
> This is how my 235 movie ends up. Can you please tell me what I am missing ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lots. You need to read the manual as you are not setting up the projector properly.


----------



## jollyguy23

Kris Deering said:


> Lots. You need to read the manual as you are not setting up the projector properly.


Thanks @Kris Deering. I though I had the project and the lens set up correctly and the lumagen was the area I was not knowing what to do. 

In the way I set it up once I pressed 235 on the lumagen remote then it filled the screen with small black bars in the side. I changed the lumagen to our put 4k24 to 4096 and in the projector set it to aspect auto and the bars went away and I get a full screen now. 

All this is only testing and I have not set up and saved anything as these are still overwhelming. 

I will look at what else is wrong in the projector set up and the auto aspect of lumagen. 

Really looking forward to your Portland area visit to schedule that calibration with you . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SJHT

jollyguy23 said:


> Thanks @Kris Deering. I though I had the project and the lens set up correctly and the lumagen was the area I was not knowing what to do.
> 
> In the way I set it up once I pressed 235 on the lumagen remote then it filled the screen with small black bars in the side. I changed the lumagen to our put 4k24 to 4096 and in the projector set it to aspect auto and the bars went away and I get a full screen now.
> 
> All this is only testing and I have not set up and saved anything as these are still overwhelming.
> 
> I will look at what else is wrong in the projector set up and the auto aspect of lumagen.
> 
> Really looking forward to your Portland area visit to schedule that calibration with you .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He can do stuff remotely to start with. He did that for my setup…. SJ


----------



## desray2k

This question is for Apple TV 4K owner. I'm currently running the latest beta firmware. Of late I discovered that the YouTube app on Apple TV is not sending a HDR flag to the Radiance Pro when playing 4K HDR content. I have an Amazon FireTV Cube and the YouTube is able to send HDR flag correctly to the Radiance Pro. 

Can anyone confirm if you are having the same issue with the YT app on Radiance Pro. If so, this is a bug that YouTube needs to fix for Apple TV. 

Hint: take a look at the signal info that the display is receiving. Is it in BT2020 or Rec709 gamut.



Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> This question is for Apple TV 4K owner. I'm currently running the latest beta firmware. Of late I discovered that the YouTube app on Apple TV is not sending a HDR flag to the Radiance Pro when playing 4K HDR content. I have an Amazon FireTV Cube and the YouTube is able to send HDR flag correctly to the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Can anyone confirm if you are having the same issue with the YT app on Radiance Pro. If so, this is a bug that YouTube needs to fix for Apple TV.
> 
> Hint: take a look at the signal info that the display is receiving. Is it in BT2020 or Rec709 gamut.


I don't think Youtube app supports any of the "match" functions on AppleTV, so no match HDR or framerate...


----------



## desray2k

bobof said:


> I don't think Youtube app supports any of the "match" functions on AppleTV, so no match HDR or framerate...


I see. That's too bad. Even Roku and Amazon FireTV Cube can. Let's hope Google is willing to release a version that supports native "match dynamic range" of the YT app for Apple TV in the near future...

Looks like the workaround is to set to 4K HDR for all content type in the Apple TV video setting. This is ridiculous. 









How to get YouTube on my Apple TV to play HDR?


I have an LG OLED 65. I have the 4K Apple TV set to SDR, match content etc. When I play apps that use dolby vision I get the banner on the top right that says dolby vision. I cannot get the HDR banner to show up on any HDR videos using YouTube app. When I go to quality settings it does not...




forums.macrumors.com





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----------



## asherman8

desray2k said:


> This question is for Apple TV 4K owner. I'm currently running the latest beta firmware. Of late I discovered that the YouTube app on Apple TV is not sending a HDR flag to the Radiance Pro when playing 4K HDR content. I have an Amazon FireTV Cube and the YouTube is able to send HDR flag correctly to the Radiance Pro.
> 
> Can anyone confirm if you are having the same issue with the YT app on Radiance Pro. If so, this is a bug that YouTube needs to fix for Apple TV.
> 
> Hint: take a look at the signal info that the display is receiving. Is it in BT2020 or Rec709 gamut.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


I can confirm this bug for the YouTube App only on AppleTV. Noticed it again tonight watching the Olympics that are supposed to be broadcast in 4K HDR. LRP getting an SDR 709 input…
Shame


----------



## aguy

asherman8 said:


> I can confirm this bug for the YouTube App only on AppleTV. Noticed it again tonight watching the Olympics that are supposed to be broadcast in 4K HDR. LRP getting an SDR 709 input…
> Shame


Is it the correct colours in bt709 color space ? Or are the colours incorrect ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobof

desray2k said:


> I see. That's too bad. Even Roku and Amazon FireTV Cube can. Let's hope Google is willing to release a version that supports native "match dynamic range" of the YT app for Apple TV in the near future...
> 
> Looks like the workaround is to set to 4K HDR for all content type in the Apple TV video setting. This is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to get YouTube on my Apple TV to play HDR?
> 
> 
> I have an LG OLED 65. I have the 4K Apple TV set to SDR, match content etc. When I play apps that use dolby vision I get the banner on the top right that says dolby vision. I cannot get the HDR banner to show up on any HDR videos using YouTube app. When I go to quality settings it does not...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forums.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


Yes, that was the info I found. The Youtube app on AppleTV has always been a bit of a poor implementation. There's an AppleTV thread where the discussion probably really belongs. If you can get enough folk complaining about it then maybe it will be improved.


----------



## Bumper

New LRP4242 18ghz owner and wanting to process the video of my HTPC running mpc-be with madvr as a renderer.
My setup is: HTPC -> Storm Audio ISP MK2 -> Lumagen -> Sony VPL-760ES and my test setup to not have to start the theater all the time is: HTPC -> Lumagen -> LG 4KHDR TV/Monitor. In both setups I get the same (unexpected?) results
My HTPC with MadVR does all the scaling to 4K because I run it in a dual head setup where the primary head is a touchscreen controller for my theater and the secondary head is for video play. Therefor I don't want to switch resolutions all the time. I am in full control of all devices through rs232 and I also control the video framerate on the HTPC side. Furthermore it does blackbar detection and strips the black bars so it can render the subtitles in the active video image. So atleast those three things is what I need the HTPC to do.

I output HD movies mostly with Rec709 and UHD movies mostly HDR with BT.2020. Right now MadVR does the tonemapping by I want the Lumagen to do the TM. When I get this to work I can see the the Lumagen does a better job for TM. Right now I hold a 3DLUT for Rec709 in MadVR but I want to have the Lumagen do the 3DLuts for both 709 and 2020. So there are good reasons for me to get the Lumagen in the loop even though the HTPC running MadVR can do most of the stuff.

Here is my problem: I have the latest firmware and did a factory reset. Then I started testing. MadVR does not do the TM anymore so it passes HDR metadata to the display.
If I start an HD movie (709), the Lumagen info page 1 says: Input Format RGB-SDR709 and Output format RGB-SDR709. All OK. But if I then start a UHD (HDR) movie it says RGB-HDR2020 in and RGB-SDR2020 out. All OK but it doesn't find the HDR meta data display on info P2. It all stays at 0. After a few restarts of the movie, sometimes it finds the correct data and the TM looks phenominal.
But when I start the HD (709) movie again, now the Input stays at RGB-HDR2020 and the output stays at RGB-SDR2020. I would expect this to fall back to RGB-SDR709 but it doesn't and the image obviously looks all wrong.

I tried creating memories, changing and forcing settings but whatever I do, I can't find the right combi of settings. Sometimes a player restart helps and that worries me because it means the MadVR does not reset the flags (?).

Long post, but maybe somebody here can be of help.


----------



## Kottan

Hello, new 4242 c 18G user here, however not a happy one so far. The Lumagen is directly connected via a 15m long active Ruipro 4k 18G 2.0b HDMI cable to the JVC X7900 and via 2m long passive iVANKY 18G certified HDMI cables to the sources Apple TV4k and Sony UPBX 800 as well as an Arcam AVR390 via HDMI audio. However I (nearly) only get a blue screen on the JVC….connecting the Apple TV directly to the JVC immediatley gives a picture, via the Lumagen I was only able to project an image for a few seconds (after switching the inputs several times) at best where the blue screen came up again either after a few seconds or lately when I hit the menu button on the Lumagen.

Can I safely rule out the Ruipro cable as troublemaker since I get a picture when directly connecting the Apple TV to the JVC? Does the JVC receive no picture at all from the Lumagen when the trouble is in the connection between the Lumagen and the sources? Any input is very much appreciated…..


----------



## chasiliff

I feel fortunate that I can run my AppleTV to my Marantz receiver to Lumagen to HDFury Vertex 2 to 6m Ruipro to my JVC. I had an RS500 before upgrading to RS3100. 

My passive 6ft/2m cables are a mix of latest 48g Monoprice and Amazon 4k certified. I did get better connections when I swapped for the 48g cables over some of my 18g passive connections. (can't remember what connections between Appletv and Marantz and UB820 and Lumagen to Vertex2 are 4k or 8k.)

Additionally, I bought the latest AppleTV 4k last summer when I upgraded to the Lumagen.

You should look into this Voltage inserter:


Amazon.com



Also, try bypassing your receiver: Apple to Lumagen to JVC. Audio out from Lumagen to your receiver. 

Hope those thoughts help!


----------



## chasiliff

Kottan, 
Re-reading your post, I initially interpreted your post as using receiver between sources and Lumagen but now I think you are running Arcam with HDMI audio. So, you are from Source to Lumagen to JVC already?


----------



## Kottan

chasiliff said:


> Kottan,
> Re-reading your post, I initially interpreted your post as using receiver between sources and Lumagen but now I think you are running Arcam with HDMI audio. So, you are from Source to Lumagen to JVC already?


Yes, source to Lumagen to JVC.


----------



## chasiliff

Kottan,

I recommend you buy these for your passives:








Amazon.com: Monoprice Ultra 8K High Speed HDMI Cable - 6 Feet - Black, 48Gbps, 8K, Dynamic HDR, eARC, UHDTV, AMD FreeSync - DynamicView, 13948, (Pack of 3) : Electronics


Buy Monoprice Ultra 8K High Speed HDMI Cable - 6 Feet - Black, 48Gbps, 8K, Dynamic HDR, eARC, UHDTV, AMD FreeSync - DynamicView, 13948, (Pack of 3): HDMI Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





Buy the Voltage inserter.

Then see how things run then. Not a big expense and purchases you'll be able to use in your system going forward. 

My Lumagen is also the 4242c.


----------



## chasiliff

When I bought my Lumagen, there were reports on this thread that the most recent AppleTV 4k had some issues with HDMI to Lumagen, so that is why I bought the most recent AppleTV (2021 release) when I bought Lumagen. I don't know if that was changed with AppleTV software updates or not.


----------



## Kottan

chasiliff said:


> When I bought my Lumagen, there were reports on this thread that the most recent AppleTV 4k had some issues with HDMI to Lumagen, so that is why I bought the most recent AppleTV (2021 release) when I bought Lumagen. I don't know if that was changed with AppleTV software updates or not.


Not only the Apple TV as source but also the Sony doesn‘t work, however I have got at least a picture for some seconds with the latter.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Bumper said:


> I output HD movies mostly with Rec709 and UHD movies mostly HDR with BT.2020. Right now MadVR does the tonemapping by I want the Lumagen to do the TM. When I get this to work I can see the the Lumagen does a better job for TM. Right now I hold a 3DLUT for Rec709 in MadVR but I want to have the Lumagen do the 3DLuts for both 709 and 2020. So there are good reasons for me to get the Lumagen in the loop even though the HTPC running MadVR can do most of the stuff.


I realize this isn't a helpful post, but I'm curious why you thought the Lumagen did a better job at TM.


----------



## Geof

Kottan said:


> Hello, new 4242 c 18G user here, however not a happy one so far. The Lumagen is directly connected via a 15m long active Ruipro 4k 18G 2.0b HDMI cable to the JVC X7900 and via 2m long passive iVANKY 18G certified HDMI cables to the sources Apple TV4k and Sony UPBX 800 as well as an Arcam AVR390 via HDMI audio. However I (nearly) only get a blue screen on the JVC….connecting the Apple TV directly to the JVC immediatley gives a picture, via the Lumagen I was only able to project an image for a few seconds (after switching the inputs several times) at best where the blue screen came up again either after a few seconds or lately when I hit the menu button on the Lumagen.
> 
> Can I safely rule out the Ruipro cable as troublemaker since I get a picture when directly connecting the Apple TV to the JVC? Does the JVC receive no picture at all from the Lumagen when the trouble is in the connection between the Lumagen and the sources? Any input is very much appreciated…..


Stupid question but do you have the output enabled for the particular input resolution? You should be using output 2 and have it set to output your desired resolution for each input resolution the Lumagen receives...try a baby step...input 1080i into and configure output 2 to "V" (video) or "B" (both) with a 1080i input and a 1080i output. If/once you get that working you can change output resolution to 1080p (or whatever your choice is).


----------



## Kottan

Geof said:


> Stupid question but do you have the output enabled for the particular input resolution? You should be using output 2 and have it set to output your desired resolution for each input resolution the Lumagen receives...try a baby step...input 1080i into and configure output 2 to "V" (video) or "B" (both) with a 1080i input and a 1080i output. If/once you get that working you can change output resolution to 1080p (or whatever your choice is).


But how can I do that when all I get is a bluescreen on the JVC?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Kottan said:


> But how can I do that when all I get is a bluescreen on the JVC?


MENU 0 9 9 9 OK does factory reset. 

Unplug sources from scaler

Plug PJ in to OUTPUT 2

See if you get any lumagen OSD. If you do then attach one source and see what happens. If you do not try one of the shortcuts below to force a different output resolution and see what happens
480p60: MENU 0 2 1 OK 
720p60: MENU 0 2 4 OK 
1080p24: MENU 0 2 0 OK
1080p60: MENU 0 2 7 OK 
4k24: MENU 0 2 3 OK 
4k50: MENU 0 2 5 OK
4k60: MENU 0 2 9 OK

If you get no OSD from lumagen with any of above then do you have another display you can attach it to to see if you can get any image from the device?


----------



## chasiliff

I love the above suggestions, but I have seen a lot of suggestions from many experts here, probably including some of the above, and most start with making sure your passive cables work first. Try AppleTV or Sony to Lumagen to JVC using the 2m passives. If that works, then you aren't ruling out the Ruipro, but you are giving yourself confidence in the passive cables. (I'd also get the monoprice 48G ASAP, but I realize I'm doubling down on my suggestion...) If your 4k passive cables work, you might try putting the Ruipro into input 2 for the JVC. Additionally, Mike Garrett told me to just get the Voltage inserter when I asked him 2 weeks ago about concerns for Ruipro voltage. So, I did.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

chasiliff said:


> just get the Voltage inserter when I asked him 2 weeks ago about concerns for Ruipro voltage. So, I did.


Lumagen design the output of the Pro to have excess capacity to drive these active cables. However, for the pennies it costs a voltage inserter is a good call.


----------



## Bumper

Bumper said:


> Here is my problem: I have the latest firmware and did a factory reset. Then I started testing. MadVR does not do the TM anymore so it passes HDR metadata to the display.
> If I start an HD movie (709), the Lumagen info page 1 says: Input Format RGB-SDR709 and Output format RGB-SDR709. All OK. But if I then start a UHD (HDR) movie it says RGB-HDR2020 in and RGB-SDR2020 out. All OK but it doesn't find the HDR meta data display on info P2. It all stays at 0. After a few restarts of the movie, sometimes it finds the correct data and the TM looks phenominal.
> But when I start the HD (709) movie again, now the Input stays at RGB-HDR2020 and the output stays at RGB-SDR2020. I would expect this to fall back to RGB-SDR709 but it doesn't and the image obviously looks all wrong.


80% fixed:
By using rs232 commands for input format, output format and cms I can control per movie start what the settings should be and TM now works through the Lumagen. I had to change the EDID HDR flag to No to prevent Windows from switching to HDR as well which washed out the video.
20% left: After coming from input format: RGB-HDR2020 and setting it back tot RGB 709, it remains in RGB-HDR709 instead of RGB-SDR709. This messes up my HD Rec.709 content. I could get rid of this switching Windows between HDR on and off but that option is now gone after having edited the EDID. So if I can force the Input Fromat from HDR709 to SDR709 that would solve all my problems. Anybody?


----------



## Kottan

Gordon Fraser said:


> MENU 0 9 9 9 OK does factory reset.
> 
> Unplug sources from scaler
> 
> Plug PJ in to OUTPUT 2
> 
> See if you get any lumagen OSD. If you do then attach one source and see what happens. If you do not try one of the shortcuts below to force a different output resolution and see what happens
> 480p60: MENU 0 2 1 OK
> 720p60: MENU 0 2 4 OK
> 1080p24: MENU 0 2 0 OK
> 1080p60: MENU 0 2 7 OK
> 4k24: MENU 0 2 3 OK
> 4k50: MENU 0 2 5 OK
> 4k60: MENU 0 2 9 OK
> 
> If you get no OSD from lumagen with any of above then do you have another display you can attach it to to see if you can get any image from the device?


Many thanks, after unplugging all sources I indeed got the Lumagen‘s menu displayed. I then connected the Sony and managed to have a picture showing the home menu of the Sony, however when trying to play back a bluray the JVC went into bluescreen again. So when all sources are unplugged I can see the Lumagen‘s menu, however when for instance going to „info“ on the Lumagen the JVC goes into bluescreen again. 
Does this mean that all the problems are related with the HDMI conncection to the sources or does the fact that with all sources unplugged I can still make the JVC show a bluescreen also hints to problems with the connection between the Lumagen and the JVC?
I have already ordered 3m versions of my currently used passive HDMI cables, any chance that this could solve my problems?


----------



## SJHT

Normally, if you can see the Lumagen Menu, then your cable between the Lumagen and your display is good. Would be a source issue. SJ


----------



## docrog

SJHT said:


> Normally, if you can see the Lumagen Menu, then your cable between the Lumagen and your display is good. Would be a source issue. SJ


It might be worth considering a faulty HDMI connection at the RP if cables are not the issue??? He's indicated that there's no problem with the source when plugging directly into the PJ. Perhaps trying the sources into different RP inputs or swapping cables might provide additional info?


----------



## jrp

Kottan said:


> Many thanks, after unplugging all sources I indeed got the Lumagen‘s menu displayed. I then connected the Sony and managed to have a picture showing the home menu of the Sony, however when trying to play back a bluray the JVC went into bluescreen again. So when all sources are unplugged I can see the Lumagen‘s menu, however when for instance going to „info“ on the Lumagen the JVC goes into bluescreen again.
> Does this mean that all the problems are related with the HDMI connection to the sources or does the fact that with all sources unplugged I can still make the JVC show a bluescreen also hints to problems with the connection between the Lumagen and the JVC?
> I have already ordered 3m versions of my currently used passive HDMI cables, any chance that this could solve my problems?


[EDIT] I just noticed that going to the Info screen on the Radiance Pro appears to lose picture. I will leave the info below, but this does seem like a cable or input issue on the X7900 rather than a HDCP issue. You can try setting the maximum output to 9 GHz as described below. [End EDIT]

If you see the OSD from a HDCP 2.2 capable source but not content, this could be a HDCP issue. The X7900 is reported to have HDCP 2.2, but if it is not responding fast enough it might be failing the maximum time limit and the Radiance Pro would refuse to output HDCP 2.2 content.

As a test of this, you could go into the Radiance Pro MENU.Input.Options.HDMI Setup.HDCP and select HDCP 1.X. Then press OK. Then the source would only output HDCP 1.X (as is likely the case for its OSD) even for content (some content would be limited to 1080). Then the Pro would see the source as HDCP 1.X and allow output if the downstream devices passes HDCP 1.X protocol initiation.

Alternately (with no OSD showing) press OK to get to Info Pg 1 and see if the Output 2 column reports HDCP 2.2 as active, or only HDCP 1.X.

You could also try setting the Pro output to 9 GHz maximum (MENU 0873, then MENU 0872, and then a Save). If it is cable related, or related to the HDMI input on the X7900 which has had issues in the past, this might help for content.

If you want to start a dialog, email me at the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## Kottan

jrp said:


> You could also try setting the Pro output to 9 GHz maximum (MENU 0873, then MENU 0872, and then a Save). If it is cable related, or related to the HDMI input on the X7900 which has had issues in the past, this might help for content.
> 
> If you want to start a dialog, email me at the lumagen.com support email.


Hi Jim, I did this and initially this seemed to work - my Sony gave my a picture even wih the bluray „Oblivion“ getting played back, however when I fed a different disc into the Sony I again got a bluescreen. The Apple TV I could never make work and since some settings seemed to have had been screwed I did a factory reset. If I do MENU 0873, then MENU 0872, and then a Save, shouldn‘t the Info page display something different than „3840x2160p, 59.94Hz and 422-SDR709“? Do 9 GHz not limit to 24Hz with 422 or am I wrong? Where can I see in the menu that the Lumagen indeed outputs 9GHz?


----------



## Geof

Kottan said:


> But how can I do that when all I get is a bluescreen on the JVC?


Hi, 
I see you've gotten better help and would suggest you email jrp to work thru the issue you are having. He's great to work with....
To answer your question, I setup my RP using a TV at 1080i before connecting it to my projector. Have you tried something other that your projector? That could provide further insight into the issue (ie, if it works with a TV it would rule out a RP issue etc)....
In any event keep at it - I'm confident jrp can help you get this resolved...you won't find better customer service anywhere on the planet...


----------



## Kris Deering

Kottan said:


> Hi Jim, I did this and initially this seemed to work - my Sony gave my a picture even wih the bluray „Oblivion“ getting played back, however when I fed a different disc into the Sony I again got a bluescreen. The Apple TV I could never make work and since some settings seemed to have had been screwed I did a factory reset. If I do MENU 0873, then MENU 0872, and then a Save, shouldn‘t the Info page display something different than „3840x2160p, 59.94Hz and 422-SDR709“? Do 9 GHz not limit to 24Hz with 422 or am I wrong? Where can I see in the menu that the Lumagen indeed outputs 9GHz?


The Lumagen always outputs 422 and 9 GHz does not limit 24p performance at all. Do you have a dealer you can work with on this? I also highly suggest you let [email protected] help rather than trying to get Jim to do this over forum posts.


----------



## Kottan

After lots of back and forth it seems that switching to 9GHz did the trick! I have to say that this entire HDMI stuff is nothing but a nightmare - never ever before have had home cinema aficionados access to such high video-quality just for this HDMI compatibility-mess to spoil the party. 
However it seems that my Lumagen honeymoon phase can now start!


----------



## Kottan

Unfortunately the JVC again went into bluescreen mode while I was writing my last post and while I had the Sony playback a disc which means that there is still some instability in the HDMI chain. After switching to 9GHz I can now at least see a picture from the Apple TV while nothing I do whatsoever in the Lumagen´s menu when I am in an input with no active source connected to it makes the JVC display a bluescreen.

So my last question to the forum intelligence - what can I do to improve the stability of the HDMI connection? Replacing the 2m passive cables with cables of 3m length? Or is there an additional device I can put between the Lumagen and the JVC?

I have to say that after overcoming the activation energy barrier of understanding the logic underlying the Lumagen it is really fun to have the Lumagen in my home theater. Easy to set up with a plethora of possibilities that make wet dreams of enthusiasts come true. All the more this HDMI-nonsense hurts…..


----------



## desray2k

Kottan said:


> Unfortunately the JVC again went into bluescreen mode while I was writing my last post and while I had the Sony playback a disc which means that there is still some instability in the HDMI chain. After switching to 9GHz I can now at least see a picture from the Apple TV while nothing I do whatsoever in the Lumagen´s menu when I am in an input with no active source connected to it makes the JVC display a bluescreen.
> 
> So my last question to the forum intelligence - what can I do to improve the stability of the HDMI connection? Replacing the 2m passive cables with cables of 3m length? Or is there an additional device I can put between the Lumagen and the JVC?
> 
> I have to say that after overcoming the activation energy barrier of understanding the logic underlying the Lumagen it is really fun to have the Lumagen in my home theater. Easy to set up with a plethora of possibilities that make wet dreams of enthusiasts come true. All the more this HDMI-nonsense hurts…..


Replace the HDMI cable. Those brands recommended by Jim and members here. I'm using passive tributaries cables. It cost a little more but it's proven to be stable.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Hey Everyone. Just wanted to give an update on the Lumagen/JVC NZ situation with the occasion "glitch" frame that pops up. As you know, Lumagen is hosting earlier firmware from JVC that prevents the issue. JVC has a Radiance Pro now (JVC USA at the moment) and are looking into it. One thing we've found out from that testing is that a 9Ghz output card does not have the issue, which means this points to a sensitivity issue on the JVC side to edge rate. In this last week I have done two different tests that have (so far) eliminated the problem as well. The first is a bit expensive, but I put the HD Fury Dr HDMI 8K in line with the output of the Lumagen to the projector. This eliminated the glitch completely in at least 4-5 hours of testing. Next I tried a HDMI splitter that was recommended by Markmon for some other issues he was having. This is a $30 box which when installed acts as a pass through if you want it to with non interaction required. This eliminated the issue with about 2-3 hours of testing so far. So these are options that may work for some that do not want to revert the firmware until a solution is found by JVC (which could be awhile). 

For those interested, you can find the inexpensive splitter HERE

For that I just ran a 3-meter HDMI cable from the output of the Lumagen to the splitter and then the normal cable you use to the projector from there.


----------



## Nima

@Kris Deering I have the 9Ghz output card and I did have the problem. Or did I understand something wrong?


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just wanted to give an update on the Lumagen/JVC NZ situation with the occasion "glitch" frame that pops up. As you know, Lumagen is hosting earlier firmware from JVC that prevents the issue. JVC has a Radiance Pro now (JVC USA at the moment) and are looking into it. One thing we've found out from that testing is that a 9Ghz output card does not have the issue, which means this points to a sensitivity issue on the JVC side to edge rate. In this last week I have done two different tests that have (so far) eliminated the problem as well. The first is a bit expensive, but I put the HD Fury Dr HDMI 8K in line with the output of the Lumagen to the projector. This eliminated the glitch completely in at least 4-5 hours of testing. Next I tried a HDMI splitter that was recommended by Markmon for some other issues he was having. This is a $30 box which when installed acts as a pass through if you want it to with non interaction required. This eliminated the issue with about 2-3 hours of testing so far. So these are options that may work for some that do not want to revert the firmware until a solution is found by JVC (which could be awhile).
> 
> For those interested, you can find the inexpensive splitter HERE
> 
> For that I just ran a 3-meter HDMI cable from the output of the Lumagen to the splitter and then the normal cable you use to the projector from there.


Kris, I'm not a NZ owner as of today, but on my NX, whenever I switch it to output 9 Ghz, the output menu shows that my chroma switches from 422 to 420. Why is that, and is it the case with the NZ models?


----------



## Geof

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just wanted to give an update on the Lumagen/JVC NZ situation with the occasion "glitch" frame that pops up. As you know, Lumagen is hosting earlier firmware from JVC that prevents the issue. JVC has a Radiance Pro now (JVC USA at the moment) and are looking into it. One thing we've found out from that testing is that a 9Ghz output card does not have the issue, which means this points to a sensitivity issue on the JVC side to edge rate. In this last week I have done two different tests that have (so far) eliminated the problem as well. The first is a bit expensive, but I put the HD Fury Dr HDMI 8K in line with the output of the Lumagen to the projector. This eliminated the glitch completely in at least 4-5 hours of testing. Next I tried a HDMI splitter that was recommended by Markmon for some other issues he was having. This is a $30 box which when installed acts as a pass through if you want it to with non interaction required. This eliminated the issue with about 2-3 hours of testing so far. So these are options that may work for some that do not want to revert the firmware until a solution is found by JVC (which could be awhile).
> 
> For those interested, you can find the inexpensive splitter HERE
> 
> For that I just ran a 3-meter HDMI cable from the output of the Lumagen to the splitter and then the normal cable you use to the projector from there.


Does forcing the 18 GHz output to 9 GHz change the equation?


----------



## Craig Peer

That's an easy fix. Thanks Kris.


----------



## Nima

As I wrote above it did not change it for me- I have a 9Ghz card.


----------



## Clark Burk

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just wanted to give an update on the Lumagen/JVC NZ situation with the occasion "glitch" frame that pops up. As you know, Lumagen is hosting earlier firmware from JVC that prevents the issue. JVC has a Radiance Pro now (JVC USA at the moment) and are looking into it. One thing we've found out from that testing is that a 9Ghz output card does not have the issue, which means this points to a sensitivity issue on the JVC side to edge rate. In this last week I have done two different tests that have (so far) eliminated the problem as well. The first is a bit expensive, but I put the HD Fury Dr HDMI 8K in line with the output of the Lumagen to the projector. This eliminated the glitch completely in at least 4-5 hours of testing. Next I tried a HDMI splitter that was recommended by Markmon for some other issues he was having. This is a $30 box which when installed acts as a pass through if you want it to with non interaction required. This eliminated the issue with about 2-3 hours of testing so far. So these are options that may work for some that do not want to revert the firmware until a solution is found by JVC (which could be awhile).
> 
> For those interested, you can find the inexpensive splitter HERE
> 
> For that I just ran a 3-meter HDMI cable from the output of the Lumagen to the splitter and then the normal cable you use to the projector from there.


Kris can you explain a bit more what the HD Fury unit and the Ezcoo unit are doing in the chain? Is it reclocking, boosting, attenuating or something else?


----------



## Hawks07

Nima said:


> As I wrote above it did not change it for me- I have a 9Ghz card.


I think he was referring to the HDFury/splitter fix.


----------



## chasiliff

I sent Jim Peterson a note about my experience with my RS3100 yesterday. I have my AppleTV/UB820 to Marantz receiver to Lumagen 4242c to HDFury Vertex 2 then Ruipro 6m with Voltage inserter to my RS3100. I am in the habit of using EDID 11 for this because I used to play around with LLDV with my RS500 before getting the Lumagen. (I could set up the Vertex 2 to swap between EDID 10, the DV capable EDID, with EDID 11 using my Harmony remote for quick changes of output from the AppleTV.) EDID 11 is a generic EDID for 4k60 with HDR and full audio. When I switched to the Automix setting, which combines the EDID from the JVC 3100 and the old Sony LLDV Dolby Vision EDID, I started having the frame drops. I switched back to EDID 11 and it works great without frame drops. I hope this helps some people until there is an updated firmware.


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> @Kris Deering I have the 9Ghz output card and I did have the problem. Or did I understand something wrong?


That’s great info! So maybe it does effect those as well. JVC couldn’t reproduce with 9G output card.


----------



## chasiliff

chasiliff said:


> I sent Jim Peterson a note about my experience with my RS3100 yesterday. I have my AppleTV/UB820 to Marantz receiver to Lumagen 4242c to HDFury Vertex 2 then Ruipro 6m with Voltage inserter to my RS3100. I am in the habit of using EDID 11 for this because I used to play around with LLDV with my RS500 before getting the Lumagen. (I could set up the Vertex 2 to swap between EDID 10, the DV capable EDID, with EDID 11 using my Harmony remote for quick changes of output from the AppleTV.) EDID 11 is a generic EDID for 4k60 with HDR and full audio. When I switched to the Automix setting, which combines the EDID from the JVC 3100 and the old Sony LLDV Dolby Vision EDID, I started having the frame drops. I switched back to EDID 11 and it works great without frame drops. I hope this helps some people until there is an updated firmware.


I have to correct my note above. I went from frequent black screen to very very rare. None with 2 hours of paramount plus for Star Trek discovery and 1 hour of Modern Family Sdr on Hulu both on AppleTV. Now with occasional drops with Star Trek Into Darhkness on Hulu.


----------



## Drexler

Can someone give me a quick tip regarding the settings for doing the auto-calibrate on one of the new JVC NZ projectors?  If I want to use the Lumagen tone-mapping should I select a HDR2020 calibration or an SDR2020 calibration in Chromapure? I'm a bit confused since the input would be the former and the output the latter...

The instructions can be interpreted both ways:

"_Rec. 2020 and HDR10: Use this for calibration of UHD 4k sources 
 Rec. 2020 and SDR: This is an alternative for UHD 4k sources for those users who prefer to not use HDR. 
 P3 and SDR: This is another alternative for UHD 4k sources for those users who prefer to not use HDR_"

What does the second point mean? "_users who prefer not to use HDR_" Is that if you use tone-mapping? And when would it be beneficial to use P3?


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> @Kris Deering I have the 9Ghz output card and I did have the problem. Or did I understand something wrong?


just want to confirm your output card is a 9G card, not an 18 running at 9 correct? And you saw the glitch bug with this configuration on one of the new JVC laser projectors running the 1.2 firmware?


----------



## Nima

Kris Deering said:


> just want to confirm your output card is a 9G card, not an 18 running at 9 correct? And you saw the glitch bug with this configuration on one of the new JVC laser projectors running the 1.2 firmware?


I asked the dealer but is there anyway to verify without opening up?


----------



## Kris Deering

Take a picture of info page 3 or 4. It is the one with the letters in yellow on the bottom left. It will say.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Drexler said:


> Can someone give me a quick tip regarding the settings for doing the auto-calibrate on one of the new JVC NZ projectors?  If I want to use the Lumagen tone-mapping should I select a HDR2020 calibration or an SDR2020 calibration in Chromapure? I'm a bit confused since the input would be the former and the output the latter...
> 
> The instructions can be interpreted both ways:
> 
> "_Rec. 2020 and HDR10: Use this for calibration of UHD 4k sources
>  Rec. 2020 and SDR: This is an alternative for UHD 4k sources for those users who prefer to not use HDR.
>  P3 and SDR: This is another alternative for UHD 4k sources for those users who prefer to not use HDR_"
> 
> What does the second point mean? "_users who prefer not to use HDR_" Is that if you use tone-mapping? And when would it be beneficial to use P3?


I would suggest you email Tom Huffman @ Chromapure and see if he has updated Chromapure auto-calibrate instructions for the the new NZ projectors. 

I believe you should be auto-calibrating the Lumagen SDR2020 3LUT calibration to be used with SDR2020 picture mode on the NZ projector.


----------



## Nima

Kris Deering said:


> Take a picture of info page 3 or 4. It is the one with the letters in yellow on the bottom left. It will say.












Does this mean 18G output or not?


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> View attachment 3237793
> 
> 
> Does this mean 18G output or not?


NN/N means two input cards both not 18G, and one output card also not 18G. So your unit is all 9G cards.


----------



## Nima

Thanks!

@Kris Deering so q.e.d. that means 9G has problems as I experienced the purple flashes with 1.20 and then downgraded to 0.61

Edit: Talked to Gordon and I think me using short HDMI cables might aggrevate the problem. I ordered longer cables (3m) and might try 1.20 again.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Nima said:


> View attachment 3237793
> 
> 
> Does this mean 18G output or not?


Wouldn’t you want the lumagen upscaling that to 4K? For your JVC NZ projector.


----------



## Nima

The Lumagen ist outputting 4096x2160 the screen shows the input from the Oppo


----------



## Nima

@Kris Deering do you think I am seeing the blips because of the shorter HDMI cables?

No problem with 0.61 and the cables.


----------



## SteveFred

What 3.5mm IR extender works well with the Lumagen (4242)?


----------



## Sittler27

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> I would suggest you email Tom Huffman @ Chromapure and see if he has updated Chromapure auto-calibrate instructions for the the new NZ projectors.
> 
> I believe you should be auto-calibrating the Lumagen SDR2020 3LUT calibration to be used with SDR2020 picture mode on the NZ projector.





Drexler said:


> Can someone give me a quick tip regarding the settings for doing the auto-calibrate on one of the new JVC NZ projectors?  If I want to use the Lumagen tone-mapping should I select a HDR2020 calibration or an SDR2020 calibration in Chromapure? I'm a bit confused since the input would be the former and the output the latter...
> 
> The instructions can be interpreted both ways:
> 
> "_Rec. 2020 and HDR10: Use this for calibration of UHD 4k sources
>  Rec. 2020 and SDR: This is an alternative for UHD 4k sources for those users who prefer to not use HDR.
>  P3 and SDR: This is another alternative for UHD 4k sources for those users who prefer to not use HDR_"
> 
> What does the second point mean? "_users who prefer not to use HDR_" Is that if you use tone-mapping? And when would it be beneficial to use P3?


My Lumagen was originaly outputting SDR2020 on my NX9, but as per a recommendation from @Manni01 on another thread (who, in fairness was focused more on a madvr/NZx LUT cal, not a Lumagen one) he said with the NZ line it may be better to target P3.

On my recent NZ9/Lumagen LUT calibration I targetted P3 and had the Lumagen put out P3 for HDR (Rec709 for SDR).

The results were great, but just wondering if I should re-do it to target SDR2020 again instead?


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> My Lumagen was originaly outputting SDR2020 on my NX9, but as per a recommendation from @Manni01 on another thread (who, in fairness was focused more on a madvr/NZx LUT cal, not a Lumagen one) he said with the NZ line it may be better to target P3.
> 
> On my recent NZ9/Lumagen LUT calibration I targetted P3 and had the Lumagen put out P3 for HDR (Rec709 for SDR).
> 
> The results were great, but just wondering if I should re-do it to target SDR2020 again instead?


My view:

if you are using a 3DLUT and have calibration software capable of generating a P3 LUT, then unless your display has useful gamut between P3 and 2020, you are probably better off using P3 LUT. This is because you end up wasting less output value codes, as with a display with good P3 coverage most of the output codes should get used, whereas with a 2020 mapped display that can't display any more than P3 there are a load of output codes that get wasted.

However, if you are not using a 3DLUT it is unlikely the display will have a perfect P3 mode, whereas a 2020 mode is more likely to be found. So in that case you are probably better off using SDR2020. Likewise if your 3DLUT software doesn't support generating a P3 LUT.


----------



## Drexler

Sittler27 said:


> My Lumagen was originaly outputting SDR2020 on my NX9, but as per a recommendation from @Manni01 on another thread (who, in fairness was focused more on a madvr/NZx LUT cal, not a Lumagen one) he said with the NZ line it may be better to target P3.
> 
> On my recent NZ9/Lumagen LUT calibration I targetted P3 and had the Lumagen put out P3 for HDR (Rec709 for SDR).
> 
> The results were great, but just wondering if I should re-do it to target SDR2020 again instead?


When you did your 3D lut, did you start from high bright or a more accurate setting ( e.g. user1 or natural)?

I tried running autocal with chromapure from the high bright setting of my nz8, but the result turned out completely wacko, much worse than the starting point which was already really bad.

Perhaps it's needed to tame it first manually before applying autocal?

Manni seems to have done it successfully but with madvr and a different program. So it should work to do a 3D lut from high bright, at least if you have the right tools.


----------



## desray2k

Sittler27 said:


> My Lumagen was originaly outputting SDR2020 on my NX9, but as per a recommendation from @Manni01 on another thread (who, in fairness was focused more on a madvr/NZx LUT cal, not a Lumagen one) he said with the NZ line it may be better to target P3.
> 
> On my recent NZ9/Lumagen LUT calibration I targetted P3 and had the Lumagen put out P3 for HDR (Rec709 for SDR).
> 
> The results were great, but just wondering if I should re-do it to target SDR2020 again instead?


You can save the P3 and SDR2020 profiles in different CMS slots. You can switch between the profiles to see which one better suited for you.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## Hawks07

SteveFred said:


> What 3.5mm IR extender works well with the Lumagen (4242)?


I use this one and works great. 

TNP IR Emitter Extender Extension Cable (10 Feet) - Triple 3 Head 3.5mm Jack Infrared Red Transmitter Blaster Blink Eye Wire Cord Compatible with IR Repeater Extender System Kit, Xbox One https://www.amazon.com/dp/B019Z5PDB...t_i_YEFT60JZYDYB0VJAJMN6?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Sittler27

bobof said:


> My view:
> 
> if you are using a 3DLUT and have calibration software capable of generating a P3 LUT, then unless your display has useful gamut between P3 and 2020, you are probably better off using P3 LUT. This is because you end up wasting less output value codes, as with a display with good P3 coverage most of the output codes should get used, whereas with a 2020 mapped display that can't display any more than P3 there are a load of output codes that get wasted.
> 
> However, if you are not using a 3DLUT it is unlikely the display will have a perfect P3 mode, whereas a 2020 mode is more likely to be found. So in that case you are probably better off using SDR2020. Likewise if your 3DLUT software doesn't support generating a P3 LUT.


Ok, I'm not sure what output codes are (memory or something the LUT uses internally?)?

And, so in a nutshell the NZ9 doesn't have usable coverage beyond P3 targetting P3 is preferred in your view?


----------



## Sittler27

Drexler said:


> When you did your 3D lut, did you start from high bright or a more accurate setting ( e.g. user1 or natural)?
> 
> I tried running autocal with chromapure from the high bright setting of my nz8, but the result turned out completely wacko, much worse than the starting point which was already really bad.
> 
> Perhaps it's needed to tame it first manually before applying autocal?
> 
> Manni seems to have done it successfully but with madvr and a different program. So it should work to do a 3D lut from high bright, at least if you have the right tools.


High Bright - had to lower green by -60 and blue by -10.

I didn't use autocal at all.


desray2k said:


> You can save the P3 and SDR2020 profiles in different CMS slots. You can switch between the profiles to see which one better suited for you.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


I haven't quite figured out in the Lumagen how I would do that. I understand I can load an SDR2020 lut say in CMS2, but how do I tell the Lumagen to use CMS2 vs. CMS1?


----------



## giomania

Sittler27 said:


> High Bright - had to lower green by -60 and blue by -10.
> 
> I didn't use autocal at all.
> 
> I haven't quite figured out in the Lumagen how I would do that. I understand I can load an SDR2020 lut say in CMS2, but how do I tell the Lumagen to use CMS2 vs. CMS1?


In the output setup menu is probably the easiest way.

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just wanted to give an update on the Lumagen/JVC NZ situation with the occasion "glitch" frame that pops up. As you know, Lumagen is hosting earlier firmware from JVC that prevents the issue. JVC has a Radiance Pro now (JVC USA at the moment) and are looking into it. One thing we've found out from that testing is that a 9Ghz output card does not have the issue, which means this points to a sensitivity issue on the JVC side to edge rate. In this last week I have done two different tests that have (so far) eliminated the problem as well. The first is a bit expensive, but I put the HD Fury Dr HDMI 8K in line with the output of the Lumagen to the projector. This eliminated the glitch completely in at least 4-5 hours of testing. Next I tried a HDMI splitter that was recommended by Markmon for some other issues he was having. This is a $30 box which when installed acts as a pass through if you want it to with non interaction required. This eliminated the issue with about 2-3 hours of testing so far. So these are options that may work for some that do not want to revert the firmware until a solution is found by JVC (which could be awhile).
> 
> For those interested, you can find the inexpensive splitter HERE
> 
> For that I just ran a 3-meter HDMI cable from the output of the Lumagen to the splitter and then the normal cable you use to the projector from there.


Thanks Kris, this issue sounds very similar to how I’ve experienced audio drop outs for such a long time, it just seems to be manifesting itself in a different way.
Ive order a Dr HD Fury to test so will report back, fingers crossed it will help.


----------



## Drexler

> High Bright - had to lower green by -60 and blue by -10.
> 
> I didn't use autocal at all.
> 
> I haven't quite figured out in the Lumagen how I would do that. I understand I can load an SDR2020 lut say in CMS2, but how do I tell the Lumagen to use CMS2 vs. CMS1?


Now I'm a bit confused. I thought you needed autocal to make a 3D-LUT? That could be thousands of measurements otherwise.

Thanks for the tip about the colors!

You can select which CMS to use in the output settings. Then you need to save it for each source and for SDR, HDR and 3D in each source. The lumagen normally defaults to CMS0 for SDR and CMS1 for HDR.


----------



## bobof

Sittler27 said:


> Ok, I'm not sure what output codes are (memory or something the LUT uses internally?)?
> 
> And, so in a nutshell the NZ9 doesn't have usable coverage beyond P3 targeting P3 is preferred in your view?


If you are doing 3DLUTs and have the SW, then yes, I think P3 is preferable. 

Re: code values; it's easiest to describe it in full range RGB values (you might use YCrCb in reality, or video range RGB, it's the same principle, but harder to do in your head). Code values are RGB triplets (a set of RGB values that describe a colour the display could show).
Let's use the example of 2020 green vs P3 in 2020 green vs P3 green.
2020 green is easy, it is 0,255,0.
P3 green in 2020 is something like 211,253,144. 
P3 green in P3 is 0,255,0.

If your display has no coverage between P3 and 2020 then the greenest green you have useable in your output at 2020 is 211,253,144. You're having to add red and blue to tone down the 2020 green primary, and that means there are a whole load of code values that are being taken up by colours your display can't show between 211,253,144 and 0,255,0. Effectively you are reserving colours in the output colourspace that you can't display, so will never be exercised, and bits are being wasted that could be describing gradations between real colours you could see. 

If you have a display with 100% P3 coverage and set the Radiance output to P3 then that P3 green should result in 0,255,0 being output to the display, and all the output values are then in user.

Of course, UHD content is distributed in 10 bit 2020 with much content only having P3 colours, and looks great, so to some extent this may not be necessary, but I'm not one for giving away bits unless you have to. The DCI specs settled on full 12 bit description of SDR P3 as being the optimal level of quantization to avoid artifacts.

Another way of looking at it is the following chart, which shows the P3 in 2020 primaries vs the 2020 primaries. It is much exaggerated by looking at this on a computer screen uncalibrated, but this is a real image I used to make a 2020 vs P3 in 2020 comparison chart (in each strip set the 2020 primary is the top row, with the row underneath being the corresponding P3 colour).


----------



## bobof

I should add that the above is just my opinion and shouldn't be taken as gospel. 

I think there are questions as to what is the better approach if more content starts to use colours outside of P3 (intentionally).

My understanding is that the P3 setup in the Radiance will clip out of gamut colours to the gamut edge. This is like what a P3 grading monitor would usually do.

However, if there is detail described in the colours between P3 and 2020 then this could be lost.

A 2020 LUT which has gamut edge mapping would save a bit of the far edge of the useable gamut and stretch it somewhat over the area that can't be displayed, which could give a less accurate though perhaps more pleasing result in the case of such content, though it would clearly be less accurate as a result at the P3 gamut edge.

If you knew in advance what gamut the content used (I don't think you can rely on mastering monitor metadata unfortunately) then maybe you could make a decision as to what would be the best treatment.


----------



## Clark Burk

The HDMI boards in the Lumagen have fast edge rates which I assume is beneficial for some audio or video performance reasons I guess. By running the HDMI output through an outboard HDMI device such as the two mentioned by Kris earlier what are these boxes doing that would enable them to change the signal so it now provides a picture? Are they boosting the signal or changing the edge rate and does this have any negative consequences over the native signal output by the Lumagen?


----------



## MDesigns

Clark Burk said:


> The HDMI boards in the Lumagen have fast edge rates which I assume is beneficial for some audio or video performance reasons I guess. By running the HDMI output through an outboard HDMI device such as the two mentioned by Kris earlier what are these boxes doing that would enable them to change the signal so it now provides a picture? Are they boosting the signal or changing the edge rate and does this have any negative consequences over the native signal output by the Lumagen?


Maybe integrate the $30 splitter inside the Lumagen case and its done  HDMI is amazing when $30 boxes can have better compatibility with other devices than multi thousand units.

JVC should be able to handle fast edge rates. It supports 48Gbps with *4 x 12Ghz* signals. Lumagens maximum 18Gbps is only *3 x 6 Ghz* signals.


----------



## Sittler27

Drexler said:


> Now I'm a bit confused. I thought you needed autocal to make a 3D-LUT? That could be thousands of measurements otherwise.
> 
> Thanks for the tip about the colors!
> 
> You can select which CMS to use in the output settings. Then you need to save it for each source and for SDR, HDR and 3D in each source. The lumagen normally defaults to CMS0 for SDR and CMS1 for HDR.


You don't need an autocal to make a 3DLUT. Autocal is a JVC tool for the projector. Creating a 3DLUT is by using a calibration software independent of AC to measure a profile and then use it to create a LUT and then load it into (in my case) the Lumagen.

Personally, I actually restored my JVC with init file back to factory before doing my most recent LUT calibration.


----------



## Drexler

Sittler27 said:


> You don't need an autocal to make a 3DLUT. Autocal is a JVC tool for the projector. Creating a 3DLUT is by using a calibration software independent of AC to measure a profile and then use it to create a LUT and then load it into (in my case) the Lumagen.
> 
> Personally, I actually restored my JVC with init file back to factory before doing my most recent LUT calibration.


Yes, I was referring to an automatic calibration performed by an independent program via the lumagen, not the JVC autocal. In my case I run an autocal on chromapure that is controlling the lumagen and automatically adjusting the settings and calibrating the 3D-LUT of the lumagen.

Lumagen refers to it as "Advanced LUT Autocalibration".

I havent dabbled with the JVC autocalibration as there apparantly is a problem with low light measurements causing it to freeze. Jvc is working on an updated fw and I wont touch it before that is released. I dont need another level of frustration, they are piling up nicely already... 😀


----------



## Geof

Drexler said:


> Yes, I was referring to an automatic calibration performed by an independent program via the lumagen, not the JVC autocal. In my case I run an autocal on chromapure that is controlling the lumagen and automatically adjusting the settings and calibrating the 3D-LUT of the lumagen.
> 
> Lumagen refers to it as "Advanced LUT Autocalibration".
> 
> I havent dabbled with the JVC autocalibration as there apparantly is a problem with low light measurements causing it to freeze. Jvc is working on an updated fw and I wont touch it before that is released. I dont need another level of frustration, they are piling up nicely already... 😀


Good luck with Chromapure Autocal....I never got it to work and stopped using it.
In fact I could not even get Gamma and GS autocal to work.


----------



## Erod

What's the latest on the firmware update? Is the beta testing going well?


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Geof said:


> Good luck with Chromapure Autocal....I never got it to work and stopped using it.
> In fact I could not even get Gamma and GS autocal to work.


I am a recent LRP owner and purchased the ChromaPure Auto Calibration Package via CurtPalme. Tom Huffman provides supplemental calibration instructions specifically for LRP and JVC & Sony projectors. I did the 3DLUT calibration for SDR2020. Very happy with result. Love LRP DTM.


----------



## Geof

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> I am a recent LRP owner and purchased the ChromaPure Auto Calibration Package via CurtPalme. Tom Huffman provides supplemental calibration instructions specifically for LRP and JVC & Sony projectors. I did the 3DLUT calibration for SDR2020. Very happy with result. Love LRP DTM.


Good luck with it, I have moved on....there is better SW out there.


----------



## esdwa

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> I am a recent LRP owner and purchased the ChromaPure Auto Calibration Package via CurtPalme. Tom Huffman provides supplemental calibration instructions specifically for LRP and JVC & Sony projectors. I did the 3DLUT calibration for SDR2020. Very happy with result. Love LRP DTM.


Very cool. I am in the process of upgrading my ht to 4K including new Sony 4K pj and 4K players. 
Lumagen is my 1st choice processor if needed and it lead me to ChromaPure calibration solutions. I ordered colorimeter and Standard ChromaPure sw package from Tom to try calibrating what I have. If results are not satisfactory I am considering getting LPR with flashed CP calibration patch.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

Geof said:


> Good luck with it, I have moved on....there is better SW out there.


Maybe you are not doing it right? So far, I have good calibration results using Chromapure. Gamma is so easy to dial in on Chromapure. Not sure why you having issue. What issue you facing? Care to elaborate, if not, it's fine since you already moved on.


----------



## Sittler27

Drexler said:


> Yes, I was referring to an automatic calibration performed by an independent program via the lumagen, not the JVC autocal. In my case I run an autocal on chromapure that is controlling the lumagen and automatically adjusting the settings and calibrating the 3D-LUT of the lumagen.
> 
> Lumagen refers to it as "Advanced LUT Autocalibration".
> 
> I havent dabbled with the JVC autocalibration as there apparantly is a problem with low light measurements causing it to freeze. Jvc is working on an updated fw and I wont touch it before that is released. I dont need another level of frustration, they are piling up nicely already... 😀


Got it. Well Colour Space’s autocal with Lumagen works quite well.


----------



## Geof

desray2k said:


> Maybe you are not doing it right? So far, I have good calibration results using Chromapure. Gamma is so easy to dial in on Chromapure. Not sure why you having issue. What issue you facing? Care to elaborate, if not, it's fine since you already moved on.


It's been awhile but Chromapure (CP) Greyscale and gamma autocal never produced the results I could get by doing it manually. There were always [unacceptable] dE errors with CP autocal (mostly below 30%). I was using an i1D3 and I don't believe CP adequately uses it at lower levels.** When using Chrompaure manually I would wait until I saw successive readings give good results before moving on to the next greyscale step. In the end I could manually set greyscale and gamma in about 10-15 minutes that gave much better results on my JVC RS57.

Now then, I do have an original Rev A meter (I bought it with CP) and there are newer versions of it that may work better but Huffman wanted $250 dollars to add the Rev B i1D3 I purchased with Colourspace to my license file. Ridiculous - I wasn't about to pay that so I am a bit biased* but again CP autocal results never lived up to the hype*.

** I ended up with ColourSpace and it has settings for the 1D3 meter that allow you to select various things like integration time, averaging and even set a threshold that *successive* readings have to fall below before it would report the value. This makes a big difference in the usability of the i1D3 at lower light levels. Chromapure autocal may work fine with the high end meters ($6K) but I wasn't happy with using it with the i1D3.

When I did a JVC autocal using the i1D3 the results were stupendous. IMO there is no need to use CP (or Corlourspace) if all you want to do is calibrate greyscale and gamma....in my experience JVC Autocal is way way better. My RS57 does not cover Rec709 without the filter (which eats too much light) so there was no way any Cube calibration was going to fix that and I saw no reason to spend time generating a 17^3 lut that could not fix the basic shortcomings of not meeting 709.

Speaking of JVC Autocal, I used Colourspace to interface with the i1D3 - the chain was i1D3 -> Colourspace ->JVC Autocal program. With this setup all of the ColourSpace i1D3 options are available.

One last comment...if you read the threads in the Display cal forum you'll find some _interesting_ _comments_ from Kris D about Chromapue and autocal.

Lastly and FWIW - I have a fully licensed professional version of of Chromapure that someone was willing to buy from me (dirt cheap) but the only way I could transfer the program was with the original i1D3 (it's S/N is on the license file) and Huffman would not allow the potential buyer to replace it with a newer meter (even if purchased from him) so I am thoroughly done with Huffman and his program. YMMV.


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> Maybe you are not doing it right? So far, I have good calibration results using Chromapure. Gamma is so easy to dial in on Chromapure. Not sure why you having issue. What issue you facing? Care to elaborate, if not, it's fine since you already moved on.


I've had A LOT of clients that have tried the package deal from Curte Palme and Chromapure that have come to me saying they couldn't get it to work well at all with the "autocal". I've redone a lot of setups that have tried to go down that route.


----------



## Killroy

Count me me in as another "could not get" CP to work with BT2020 (or P3) HDR or SDR. I got a real nice outcome on BT709 but BT2020/P3 either failed or the results were less than satisfactory.


----------



## Drexler

Geof said:


> It's been awhile but Chromapure (CP) Greyscale and gamma autocal never produced the results I could get by doing it manually. There were always [unacceptable] dE errors with CP autocal (mostly below 30%). I was using an i1D3 and I don't believe CP adequately uses it at lower levels.** When using Chrompaure manually I would wait until I saw successive readings give good results before moving on to the next greyscale step. In the end I could manually set greyscale and gamma in about 10-15 minutes that gave much better results on my JVC RS57.
> 
> Now then, I do have an original Rev A meter (I bought it with CP) and there are newer versions of it that may work better but Huffman wanted $250 dollars to add the Rev B i1D3 I purchased with Colourspace to my license file. Ridiculous - I wasn't about to pay that so I am a bit biased* but again CP autocal results never lived up to the hype*.
> 
> ** I ended up with ColourSpace and it has settings for the 1D3 meter that allow you to select various things like integration time, averaging and even set a threshold that *successive* readings have to fall below before it would report the value. This makes a big difference in the usability of the i1D3 at lower light levels. Chromapure autocal may work fine with the high end meters ($6K) but I wasn't happy with using it with the i1D3.
> 
> When I did a JVC autocal using the i1D3 the results were stupendous. IMO there is no need to use CP (or Corlourspace) if all you want to do is calibrate greyscale and gamma....in my experience JVC Autocal is way way better. My RS57 does not cover Rec709 without the filter (which eats too much light) so there was no way any Cube calibration was going to fix that and I saw no reason to spend time generating a 17^3 lut that could not fix the basic shortcomings of not meeting 709.
> 
> Speaking of JVC Autocal, I used Colourspace to interface with the i1D3 - the chain was i1D3 -> Colourspace ->JVC Autocal program. With this setup all of the ColourSpace i1D3 options are available.
> 
> One last comment...if you read the threads in the Display cal forum you'll find some _interesting_ _comments_ from Kris D about Chromapue and autocal.
> 
> Lastly and FWIW - I have a fully licensed professional version of of Chromapure that someone was willing to buy from me (dirt cheap) but the only way I could transfer the program was with the original i1D3 (it's S/N is on the license file) and Huffman would not allow the potential buyer to replace it with a newer meter (even if purchased from him) so I am thoroughly done with Huffman and his program. YMMV.


Thank you for the detaled reply, that's really helpful!!

So the ColourSpace program can "talk" directly to the JVC and do its autocalibration thus by-passing JVC's autocal PC software?


----------



## Drexler

Kris Deering said:


> I've had A LOT of clients that have tried the package deal from Curte Palme and Chromapure that have come to me saying they couldn't get it to work well at all with the "autocal". I've redone a lot of setups that have tried to go down that route.


Which program would you recommend for doing a LRP 3D-LUT with an x-rite Display 3 Pro?


----------



## Geof

Drexler said:


> Thank you for the detaled reply, that's really helpful!!
> 
> So the ColourSpace program can "talk" directly to the JVC and do its autocalibration thus by-passing JVC's autocal PC software?


Not exactly...You still need to run the JVC autocal program - but it's Spyder meter dll file can be replaced to allow it to use an i1D3...doing this requires no other software - just the JVC Autocal program for your specific JVC.
(Omardris created the dll,....see the thread for alternative meters for JVC autocal).

Colourspace has the ability to act as a 'intermediatory'.....it's not required to use the i1D3 with JVC autocal (just replace the Spyder dll with the correct one from Omardris). However, using Colourspace allows one to select the i1D3 setup options that I mentioned above. The end result was nearly perfect greyscale and gamma.....

FWIW, My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd vote would be to have Kris do the calibration (in fact my RS3100 will be sent to him for that purpose). Next up would be Colourspace (I have not used Calman so I defer on that).


----------



## mikela

Drexler said:


> Thank you for the detaled reply, that's really helpful!!
> 
> So the ColourSpace program can "talk" directly to the JVC and do its autocalibration thus by-passing JVC's autocal PC software?


Colourspace allows you to use different meters when calibrating with JVC's AutoCal.


----------



## tibia

It seems no one here speaks favorably of Chromapure. My impression of Chromapure is to the contrary. I am not a professional calibrator in the usual sense, but did calibrate many projectors in nearly 20 years of employment with InFocus, before retiring in 2018. I started using CP when I bought my first JVC projector, a RS45 bundled with CP, and a Lumagen Mini 3D processor in 2012. 

I knew Tom Huffman was developing an auto-calibration module for it and anxiously awaited its release. By the time auto-cal was released I had graduated to a RS600 and Lumagen 4242.

Initially, I found CP autocal to be fragile, prone to lock-up and shut down during long autocal sessions, giving no explanation of what error caused it, and having to start over from scratch. I had several conversations with Tom about this, particularly with the advent of HDR 4K bluray. This most annoying bug was fixed many months ago. 

I have a RS3000 now and in my estimation, the pairing of the RS3000 and LRP 4242 with Chromapure autocal, albeit with some post manual tweaking of gamma and RGB balance at 5% to 15% brightness levels, is giving me a hassle free, outstanding image with both SDR and HDR sources.


----------



## Geof

tibia said:


> It seems no one here speaks favorably of Chromapure. My impression of Chromapure is to the contrary. I am not a professional calibrator in the usual sense, but did calibrate many projectors in nearly 20 years of employment with InFocus, before retiring in 2018. I started using CP when I bought my first JVC projector, a RS45 bundled with CP, and a Lumagen Mini 3D processor in 2012.
> 
> I knew Tom Huffman was developing an auto-calibration module for it and anxiously awaited its release. By the time auto-cal was released I had graduated to a RS600 and Lumagen 4242.
> 
> Initially, I found CP autocal to be fragile, prone to lock-up and shut down during long autocal sessions, giving no explanation of what error caused it, and having to start over from scratch. I had several conversations with Tom about this, particularly with the advent of HDR 4K bluray. This most annoying bug was fixed many months ago.
> 
> I have a RS3000 now and in my estimation, the pairing of the RS3000 and LRP 4242 with Chromapure autocal, albeit with some post manual tweaking of gamma and RGB balance at 5% to 15% brightness levels, is giving me a hassle free, outstanding image with both SDR and HDR sources.


Which meter are you using?


----------



## tibia

Geof:

My meter is i1 Display but CP license manager says Display 3. I got it January, 2012 so is now ten years old. BTW, on mine the bracket holding the diffusion screen has become very sticky to the touch. I wonder if others have experienced this? 

I should also add that I calibrate facing the lens, not the screen which is DaLite Matte White. I also have Minolta CL-200 and CS-100A chroma meters for spot verification.

Dennis


----------



## Nima

@Kris Deering I updated today back to 1.20 and used a 3m cable from Oppo to the Lumagen and 3m from the Lumagen to the JVC NZ. 

I have to say it cured 99% of the blips. But I still have the occasional fragment.


----------



## jrp

I just sent the Lumagen Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement initial Alpha release to those who are on the Alpha Test Team.

Initial feedback on the engineering release is:

"Jaw on the floor" improvement for 4k50 and 4k60

Makes the best video processor significantly better

Significant improvement for deinterlacing

4k24 content looks better as well

===

I am allowing the Alpha testers to post their findings. So, there should be some additional feedback soon.

Thanks for your patience on us getting the pipeline enhancements completed.


----------



## mikela

Any news on the ColourSpace LUT data transfer issue?


----------



## Chicagobear1

Jockychan who helped me set up my Lumagen and helped me compare both processors has been testing new pipeline check these comments out on the UK forums WoW.

Jockychan 
I have been testing the pre Apha pipeline firmware. Jim has kindly gave me permission to give my findings. The deinterlacing still getting work on for 1080i 50. It's apparently looking very good at 1080i 60. 1080i 50 will be working shortly can't comment at the moment. However i been flinging everything else at it testing everything all video resolution outputs. I can confirm the difference with 4k50hz/60hz output is now spectacular. I tested apple tv & content with the amazon firestick 4k50/60 content. It looks amazing the detail really pops looks like silk.

There is more i decided to spin out bluray 4k 24Hz in and out to my amazement there is video improvement here also. I watched avengers assembled it looked brilliant once i viewed with new firmware. I popped back the official firmware 090121 and played back the last 40 minutes just to make sure no placebo was going on. The new pipeline 100% is visible better with 24Hz in and out.

I Then stuck the PlayStation 4pro on i gave that a whirl. I stuck game mode on and genlock and played a few games at 4k 50/60 out the resolution improvements is big also with that i done the same switching firmware to see the differences. The difference is huge and very welcoming and noticeable.

My early conclusion this is spectacular the main reason for the pipeline precision enhancements where for 4k 50/60 output. What we are actually getting here is video improvements on everything. This is typical Lumagen under sell over deliver mentality.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> I just sent the Lumagen Radiance Pro pipeline enhancement initial Alpha release to those who are on the Alpha Test Team.
> 
> Initial feedback on the engineering release is:
> 
> "Jaw on the floor" improvement for 4k50 and 4k60
> 
> Makes the best video processor significantly better
> 
> Significant improvement for deinterlacing
> 
> 4k24 content looks better as well
> 
> ===
> 
> I am allowing the Alpha testers to post their findings. So, there should be some additional feedback soon.
> 
> Thanks for your patience on us getting the pipeline enhancements completed.


Can't wait for the official release


----------



## Citation4444

My first impressions of the new alpha release are outstanding. In my case I use the Radiance Pro to downres 4K to 1080p for my projector. I am also using the auto aspect feature to properly scale on my 2.35 scope screen. I'm using the projector outputting 2.35. The improvements are quite noticeable, especially in text items like subscripts. The dark areas seem to be cleaner as well on my high end DLP.
More to come as I've only watched a couple hours of material with no issues to report. So far, an incredible job.


----------



## Geof

tibia said:


> Geof:
> 
> My meter is i1 Display but CP license manager says Display 3. I got it January, 2012 so is now ten years old. BTW, on mine the bracket holding the diffusion screen has become very sticky to the touch. I wonder if others have experienced this?
> 
> I should also add that I calibrate facing the lens, not the screen which is DaLite Matte White. I also have Minolta CL-200 and CS-100A chroma meters for spot verification.
> 
> Dennis


Facing the lens certainly helps low light performance which is where (IMO) CP has problems with the i1D3.

Yes, my original i1D3 is also a bit sticky. I Also have some older URC remotes that were pretty sticky...I guess certain plastics don't age well...??


----------



## OzHDHT

Kris Deering said:


> I've had A LOT of clients that have tried the package deal from Curte Palme and Chromapure that have come to me saying they couldn't get it to work well at all with the "autocal". I've redone a lot of setups that have tried to go down that route.


Kris I'm one of the guys who got sold that package too. In the end the more I read about it and taking a look at doing the Autocal, I found I was definitely more than happy enough with JVC autocal on my 4500. From there I'd prefer to sort out a 'remote' cal with yourself. Mind you it's potentially not long till my NZ9 lands down here finally. So I'll be seeing what that can do.


----------



## woofer

Will be loading and checking out the "ALPHA" release tomorrow.....


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

woofer said:


> Will be loading and checking out the "ALPHA" release tomorrow.....


Let us know what you think.

am I right in thinking it’s not feature complete yet.


----------



## OzHDHT

Running Alpha as we speak. Watching some live sport. Have checked out ATV and using Satellite box as a source currently. The pay TV box never seems to like going into 4K mode through the Lumagen and throws up a message on its UHD channels regarding compatibility. Mind you I've go not interest in watching cricket even if only for eval purposes when there's perfectly good NRL on. So I'm looking at upscaled 1080i at the moment. Cant fault what I'm seeing so far, it looks a very tidy image on the 4500, even if I don't have any 4K50 content available. I'll be switching over to some various 4K24 material as I catch up on some series so will keep an eye out for differences there too.


----------



## Javs

I have a lumagen here at the moment.

Can I please have access to the alpha firmware?


----------



## Clark Burk

What is the normal timeline from alpha release to beta release if no issues are found with the alpha?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Clark, There is no normal timeline as it is extremely rare there are Alpha versions. Normally they would be during the initial development of the product. This is different as it is such a massive redoing of the FPGA architecture. I think we just need to be patient as always. At least at this time the product is already stellar and working.


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> I have a lumagen here at the moment.
> 
> Can I please have access to the alpha firmware?


Please email me at lumagen.com support. I will send you the link.


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> am I right in thinking it’s not feature complete yet.


The pipeline enhancements themselves do not add features, just quality. In the first Alpha release test patterns are not active yet. Patrick says he should have a new Alpha with test patterns soon.

==== 

We added a "Delay HDCP start" feature in MENU.Global.HDCP Delay (or close to this).

This new feature allows the HDCP to be left off initially, and then turned on a few seconds later later so the projector/TV has had more time to lock on the signal. This is for TVs and projectors with marginal input lock on and overcomes the HDMI maximum allowed HDCP response spec not being met due to their slow lock on.

This was initially done to help the Sony VW5000ES, but has also helped with a second Sony projector model. So, if you have lock-on issue, once you have the Pipeline enhancement release you can try this new feature to see if it helps.


----------



## sjschaff

Jim: just a bit of level setting, for those of us primarily driving the Lumagen Pro with over the air 1080i / 1080p as well as 4k24 source material and UHD /Blu-Ray / DVD source, how much should we expect in the way of "quality" improvements?


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…just trying to wrap my simple mind around this…Hoping someone can help me better understand…

Without a DCR, but with the Lumagen set to output 4096 in the loop, when I setup my installation mode with the screen pattern, I get get the outside lines of the pattern to align with the edge of the screen, but the top is a few inches below onto the screen and the bottom line is a few inches above on the screen…I couldn’t get all 4 lines lined up so I decided to throw in a 2.40 movie…well it lines up perfectly but not without using a value of 9 for the top and bottom shrink for the Lumagen…I think for 3840 the shrink number is actually 12…

when I add the DCR, I can then set the shrink number to 0 for top and bottom and everything lines up perfect on the screen pattern and on the movie…

what is actually happening here? Why do I need a shrink of 9 without the DCR for 4096 or a shrink of 12 for 3840? Does it have something to do with the black bars and also adding more FC with the shrink option as there is more video content on the screen?

Also “shrink” seems to expand the image or perhaps I’m way off here…

thanks folks


----------



## drewmanfu0

If anyone is using a FireTV stick or cube and doesn't have issues please let me know. Otherwise I am going to list this POS 4242 for sale. The stick and cube work just fine without the Lumagen in the chain. I have bought $300 worth of Tributaries UHDP cables, rearranged components to reduce noise and increase cable length, yet I continue to experience 15-20 video dropouts that last 2-3 seconds per hour. This is completely unacceptable for a processor that cost this much. I am severely disappointed. 

How's that "alpha" firmware, will it solve my issues?


----------



## desray2k

Javs said:


> I have a lumagen here at the moment.
> 
> Can I please have access to the alpha firmware?


Jim, can I have access to the Alpha as well. I will like to test it on my Sony VW995ES projector to see if some of the features you've mentioned that are specific to Sony projector owners help with the image quality. I will report my findings here.

I've just sent you a request email on this.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## FenceMan

drewmanfu0 said:


> If anyone is using a FireTV stick or cube and doesn't have issues please let me know. Otherwise I am going to list this POS 4242 for sale. The stick and cube work just fine without the Lumagen in the chain. I have bought $300 worth of Tributaries UHDP cables, rearranged components to reduce noise and increase cable length, yet I continue to experience 15-20 video dropouts that last 2-3 seconds per hour. This is completely unacceptable for a processor that cost this much. I am severely disappointed.
> 
> How's that "alpha" firmware, will it solve my issues?


Have you tried plugging them into a different video processor?


----------



## desray2k

drewmanfu0 said:


> If anyone is using a FireTV stick or cube and doesn't have issues please let me know. Otherwise I am going to list this POS 4242 for sale. The stick and cube work just fine without the Lumagen in the chain. I have bought $300 worth of Tributaries UHDP cables, rearranged components to reduce noise and increase cable length, yet I continue to experience 15-20 video dropouts that last 2-3 seconds per hour. This is completely unacceptable for a processor that cost this much. I am severely disappointed.
> 
> How's that "alpha" firmware, will it solve my issues?


Hmmm...I'm having the same setup as you (fire TV Cube) with LRP4242 and even tributaries UHDP cables as well but I dun recall experiencing any video dropouts like you've described.

What streaming platform are you using? Disney Plus and Netflix all having the same issue? How did you connect your source? Maybe you could try connecting the source (fire TV) to the input of the Preamp or AVR and out to the input of LPR for a change and see if it resolve the issue. That's how I've setup mine.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## ccool96

drewmanfu0 said:


> If anyone is using a FireTV stick or cube and doesn't have issues please let me know. Otherwise I am going to list this POS 4242 for sale. The stick and cube work just fine without the Lumagen in the chain. I have bought $300 worth of Tributaries UHDP cables, rearranged components to reduce noise and increase cable length, yet I continue to experience 15-20 video dropouts that last 2-3 seconds per hour. This is completely unacceptable for a processor that cost this much. I am severely disappointed.
> 
> How's that "alpha" firmware, will it solve my issues?


Where is your dealer? Why aren’t they helping resolve your issues? Did you buy the product second hand?

Do you have 9G or 18G input / output cards? What projector or tv are you using? What audio processor? How are they connected? What cable and length? What sources are connected beside the firetv? 

I am amazed when someone post on here (with zero product knowledge) complaining of problems, and 99% of the time it’s either setup wrong or they are not using the recommended cables or recommended lengths. 

I have tons of Lumagen processors installed and I don’t have a single job with audio / video dropouts. 

I have 2 radiance pros in my personal house with different equipment in each setup and zero issues. 

The alpha software will not help you with problems. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## FenceMan

ccool96 said:


> Where is your dealer? Why aren’t they helping resolve your issues? Did you buy the product second hand?
> 
> Do you have 9G or 18G input / output cards? What projector or tv are you using? What audio processor? How are they connected? What cable and length? What sources are connected beside the firetv?
> 
> I am amazed when someone post on here (with zero product knowledge) complaining of problems, and 99% of the time it’s either setup wrong or they are not using the recommended cables or recommended lengths.
> 
> I have tons of Lumagen processors installed and I don’t have a single job with audio / video dropouts.
> 
> I have 2 radiance pros in my personal house with different equipment in each setup and zero issues.
> 
> The alpha software will not help you with problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


How do you know how much product knowledge someone has?


----------



## drewmanfu0

I have Lumagen radiance pro connected directly to Samsung TV. I have 18g inputs and outputs. I have zero issues with 1080p sources processed through the pro. All 1080p sources are ran thru a Radiance XE. The only 4k source with issues has been multiple varieties of Amazon fire TV. Had the original 4k pendant with 3 different extension cables, 4k stick and 4k max stick. The latest iteration has been a 4k cube with a $120 3 meter tributaries UHDP cable. I am beyond frustrated. Please act like I have something connected "wrong" f this piece of s. I know it's broken. I just loathe the idea of sitting down for dinner to fire up some garbage ass tv show to stream only to have to rewind 20 times to see what I missed. It's great.


----------



## drewmanfu0

I will also note that I have had the same exact dropout issues with a Roku that was returned and a Sony UBP-X800M2 but did NOT use tributaries cables with those sources.


----------



## drewmanfu0

FenceMan said:


> How do you know how much product knowledge someone has?


Seriously how does he know I have ZERO product knowledge. FTG


----------



## ccool96

FenceMan said:


> How do you know how much product knowledge someone has?


Because I can tell by reading the post. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ccool96

drewmanfu0 said:


> I have Lumagen radiance pro connected directly to Samsung TV. I have 18g inputs and outputs. I have zero issues with 1080p sources processed through the pro. All 1080p sources are ran thru a Radiance XE. The only 4k source with issues has been multiple varieties of Amazon fire TV. Had the original 4k pendant with 3 different extension cables, 4k stick and 4k max stick. The latest iteration has been a 4k cube with a $120 3 meter tributaries UHDP cable. I am beyond frustrated. Please act like I have something connected "wrong" f this piece of s. I know it's broken. I just loathe the idea of sitting down for dinner to fire up some garbage ass tv show to stream only to have to rewind 20 times to see what I missed. It's great.


Send picture of the info screen from a 1080P source that works and then also the 4K firetv that is causing issue. 

If you “know” it’s broken, then why not get it fixed? 

So you have had 4 fire sticks, and none have worked, while the other sources do work? Do you have any 4K sources working, or only 1080P? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## FenceMan

ccool96 said:


> Because I can tell by reading the post.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


There is a word for this and I don't think it's acceptable in 2022.


----------



## drewmanfu0

ccool96 said:


> Send picture of the info screen from a 1080P source that works and then also the 4K firetv that is causing issue.
> 
> If you “know” it’s broken, then why not get it fixed?
> 
> So you have had 4 fire sticks, and none have worked, while the other sources do work? Do you have any 4K sources working, or only 1080P?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I have contacted lumagen and they refuse to accept the processor is broke. I have offered to send it in. I have changed the recommended settings. Please continue to blame me. It's not the device, verified with 4 different 4k fire TVs. It's not the streaming service, it happens on the home screen, the screen saver and in every app. It's not the cables, I have used the recommended length of tributaries cables. Still experiencing dropout, even the lumagen menu won't show during a dropout.

What's sad is a $600 TV will accept pretty much whatever trashy signal you throw at it but a $6k processor struggles with a single blip of fricken "jitter"


----------



## ccool96

drewmanfu0 said:


> I have contacted lumagen and they refuse to accept the processor is broke. I have offered to send it in. I have changed the recommended settings. Please continue to blame me. It's not the device, verified with 4 different 4k fire TVs. It's not the streaming service, it happens on the home screen, the screen saver and in every app. It's not the cables, I have used the recommended length of tributaries cables. Still experiencing dropout, even the lumagen menu won't show during a dropout.
> 
> What's sad is a $600 TV will accept pretty much whatever trashy signal you throw at it but a $6k processor struggles with a single blip of fricken "jitter"


I’m actually trying to assist you. From what you describe, I don’t believe the unit is broken, but that’s why I’m trying to help you diagnose the issue. 

There are lots of things to try. The info screen from the 1080P source and then from the 4K firetv would be helpful. 

Have you tried outputting in 9ghz mode? Have you tried the different HDMI microcodes? Have you done a factory reset? 

It would also help to know what software version it’s currently on. 

Again, knowing how you have it wired would help as well. 

Sources to Lumagen, then output 1 to audio processor and output 2 to tv? Or sources to Lumagen, then output 1 to AVR then out of AVR to tv? Or sources to AVR, then out of AVR to Lumagen, then out of Lumagen to TV? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jrp

sjschaff said:


> Jim: just a bit of level setting, for those of us primarily driving the Lumagen Pro with over the air 1080i / 1080p as well as 4k24 source material and UHD /Blu-Ray / DVD source, how much should we expect in the way of "quality" improvements?


I think the deinterlacing improvement for 1080i60 sources is a very significant. Much less combing, and thin elements (I like evaluating guitar strings near horizontal) look much better. One person in Europe saw some combing issues at 1080i50 (I believe him), but I am very pleased with what I saw for 1080i60 content from DirecTV and music-videos on our Strato.

All content that is output as 4k50 or 4k60 is dramatically improved. "Jaw Dropping" improvement has been the general feeling I am getting from reports back.

16:9 source with the Pro output aspect at 2.35 or 2.40 is significantly improved. In other words the downscaling is much better.

For 4k24, as I had reported the math has been improved, but I was not sure how much improvement would be visible. The improvement is very visible IMO, but not at the level of improvements for 4k50/4k60. Still the 4k24 was already the best on the planet. So started as the best and improved from there. One person said more "silky." I describe it as "more three-dimensional."

It is hard to quantify since one person might say "an amazing improvement" and another might say "an improvement." So I have to leave it so each Radiance Pro owner to come to their own conclusions.


----------



## jrp

drewmanfu0 said:


> I have contacted lumagen and they refuse to accept the processor is broke. I have offered to send it in. I have changed the recommended settings. Please continue to blame me. It's not the device, verified with 4 different 4k fire TVs. It's not the streaming service, it happens on the home screen, the screen saver and in every app. It's not the cables, I have used the recommended length of tributaries cables. Still experiencing dropout, even the lumagen menu won't show during a dropout.
> 
> What's sad is a $600 TV will accept pretty much whatever trashy signal you throw at it but a $6k processor struggles with a single blip of fricken "jitter"


We always work with people on issues. No way did I refuse to have you send it in. I _do_ require people do testing first.

I can also say we have quantitative data using the $200000 Tektronix HDMI tester that proves the Radiance Pro has the best output, the lowest jitter, and the lowest electrical noise. To say the Radiance Pro is a POS is uncalled for at the very least.

There can be HDMI compatibility issues, but it sounds like others have the same setup you do. You can see by others replies that others are not having the issues you are.

Accusations here do not help. If you actually want help contact me again at lumagen.com support.


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## drewmanfu0

jrp said:


> We always work with people on issues. No way did I refuse to have you send it in. I _do_ require people do testing first.
> 
> I can also say we have quantitative data using the $200000 Tektronix HDMI tester that proves the Radiance Pro has the best output, the lowest jitter, and the lowest electrical noise. To say the Radiance Pro is a POS is uncalled for at the very least.
> 
> There can be HDMI compatibility issues, but it sounds like others have the same setup you do. You can see by others replies that others are not having the issues you are.
> 
> Accusations here do not help. If you actually want help contact me again at lumagen.com support.


Jim, your testing involved me ordering hundreds of dollars worth of HDMI cables. Something that I was VERY reluctant to do. 

I get the OUTPUT is clean and free of jitter, let's talk about the input as this is where the RP seems to struggle. Why does a $600 TV accept nearly any trashy full of jitter signal you throw at it and not complain. All done through an HDMI cable that came supplied in the box. It's hard to NOT knock a 6k product that can't do what a $600 product can. Please enlighten me. To say that I am frustrated is an understatement. I have been working on this problem for MONTHS. 

Anyone interested in a busted ass 4242?


----------



## drewmanfu0

ccool96 said:


> I’m actually trying to assist you. From what you describe, I don’t believe the unit is broken, but that’s why I’m trying to help you diagnose the issue.
> 
> There are lots of things to try. The info screen from the 1080P source and then from the 4K firetv would be helpful.
> 
> Have you tried outputting in 9ghz mode? Have you tried the different HDMI microcodes? Have you done a factory reset?
> 
> It would also help to know what software version it’s currently on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's the latest available firmware 090121, which actually did fix a sync issue with the Lumagen XE. 

It has been factory reset. Set to output 4KHDR in a SDR container per Jim. 

The dropout seems to occur mostly from a darker scene to a scene where white bright ares as are prominent in the image. It's totally repeatable and can usually be repeated 90% of the time at the same scene change. Powering everything off, disconnecting the cables and reconnecting everything will usually fix it for an hour or so. 

If you have other suggestions I am all ears, but I will not accept a stopgap solution such as removing fretting corrosion by removing and re inserting cables all the time. I shouldn't have to, it's a 6 thousand dollar processor with 3 $120 cables. 

There is a common denominator here, it's painfully obvious. Very strange that a setup works intermittently but with precision as to when it decides to drop video


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## Geof

drewmanfu0 said:


> It's the latest available firmware 090121, which actually did fix a sync issue with the Lumagen XE.
> 
> It has been factory reset. Set to output 4KHDR in a SDR container per Jim.
> 
> The dropout seems to occur mostly from a darker scene to a scene where white bright ares as are prominent in the image. It's totally repeatable and can usually be repeated 90% of the time at the same scene change. Powering everything off, disconnecting the cables and reconnecting everything will usually fix it for an hour or so.
> 
> If you have other suggestions I am all ears, but I will not accept a stopgap solution such as removing fretting corrosion by removing and re inserting cables all the time. I shouldn't have to, it's a 6 thousand dollar processor with 3 $120 cables.
> 
> There is a common denominator here, it's painfully obvious. Very strange that a setup works intermittently but with precision as to when it decides to drop video


Perhaps you are better off selling the unit as it seems you don't really want to troubleshoot the problem....


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## drewmanfu0

Geof said:


> Perhaps you are better off selling the unit as it seems you don't really want to troubleshoot the problem....


How have I not done troubleshooting? I have ordered 4 different fire TVs, about 9 different highly rated cables, a Roku, a Sony UHD player and finally with reluctance a $120 cable. Still have the same exact issue I started with. It's baloney that I "feel" like the issue is resolved to have it happen again the next day. I have tried all 4 inputs with the same results. I am done troubleshooting and want to rid my life of this thing that "cannot" be broken, only my setup is at fault. It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.


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## desray2k

drewmanfu0 said:


> There is a common denominator here, it's painfully obvious. Very strange that a setup works intermittently but with precision as to when it decides to drop video


I can sense your frustrations but you need to keep it cool. It's not the end of the world and I have complete faith that Jim will help you if you help yourself first. Just a suggestion, since drewmanfu0 claimed that he is able to "replicate" the problem with "precision", then perhaps could accord him the benefit of the doubt to allow drewmanfu0 to send in his 4242 to Jim's team for testing? The sooner the problem is fixed, the sooner we can move on.

Just my 2 cents.


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## jrp

drewmanfu0 said:


> How have I not done troubleshooting? I have ordered 4 different fire TVs, about 9 different highly rated cables, a Roku, a Sony UHD player and finally with reluctance a $120 cable. Still have the same exact issue I started with. It's baloney that I "feel" like the issue is resolved to have it happen again the next day. I have tried all 4 inputs with the same results. I am done troubleshooting and want to rid my life of this thing that "cannot" be broken, only my setup is at fault. It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.


Given your posts, had you contacted me we might well have decided it is time to send the unit in for testing.

Please send an email to Lumagen.com support. Please again describe the situation and what you have done, We will likely want a phone call to discuss options, but we can try email first. Please include your serial number and the dealer you purchased from, and date of purchase so we have the info all in one place.


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## desray2k

drewmanfu0 said:


> It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.


Not too long ago, I also have some issue with my 4242 and I have worked with Jim for around a week or so via email correspondence before he concluded that my 4242 card truly has a defect. Luckily my 4242 is still under warranty and Jim promptly sent me a replacement part via UPS. To say Jim doesn't care or work with customers to resolve their problem is not true at all. If anything, he is the only person that has been working his ass off round the clock to answer any customer's problems/issues with the Radiance Pro product range. I urge you to re-establish email contact with Jim again to resolve this issue calmly. Blowing your top off will not resolve the issue. Besides, who will dare to buy from you after you have described with absolute certainty (to a certain degree) that your 4242 is _busted_ ??? Let us deal with this in a mature and level-headed manner.

Peace...


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## ccool96

drewmanfu0 said:


> How have I not done troubleshooting? I have ordered 4 different fire TVs, about 9 different highly rated cables, a Roku, a Sony UHD player and finally with reluctance a $120 cable. Still have the same exact issue I started with. It's baloney that I "feel" like the issue is resolved to have it happen again the next day. I have tried all 4 inputs with the same results. I am done troubleshooting and want to rid my life of this thing that "cannot" be broken, only my setup is at fault. It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.


You are frustrated which I understand, but you don’t seem to want help. It seems like you just want to vent which isn’t going to get you anywhere. I didn’t ask you to plug and unplug any hdmi cables. 

I asked for you to send pictures of the info screen for both the working 1080p source and the firetv but you haven’t. 

I asked for you to describe how you have things connected and you still haven’t said. 

I asked if you had tried things like setting the output to 9G for testing, or if you have tried the different hdmi microcodes, but you haven’t said if you tried those things. 

If the problem is easily repeatable, and so specific that it drops on scenes of dark to light over and over, then I would recommend making a video so others can see what’s happening. 

You seem convinced you have a defective Lumagen, so maybe you should just return it to the seller and let them work with Lumagen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SJHT

drewmanfu0 said:


> I have Lumagen radiance pro connected directly to Samsung TV. I have 18g inputs and outputs. I have zero issues with 1080p sources processed through the pro. All 1080p sources are ran thru a Radiance XE. The only 4k source with issues has been multiple varieties of Amazon fire TV. Had the original 4k pendant with 3 different extension cables, 4k stick and 4k max stick. The latest iteration has been a 4k cube with a $120 3 meter tributaries UHDP cable. I am beyond frustrated. Please act like I have something connected "wrong" f this piece of s. I know it's broken. I just loathe the idea of sitting down for dinner to fire up some garbage ass tv show to stream only to have to rewind 20 times to see what I missed. It's great.


Trying to understand your setup for 1080p sources. You mention 1080P sources going to the Pro and then 1080P sources going through a Radiance XE?


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## Geof

drewmanfu0 said:


> How have I not done troubleshooting? I have ordered 4 different fire TVs, about 9 different highly rated cables, a Roku, a Sony UHD player and finally with reluctance a $120 cable. Still have the same exact issue I started with. It's baloney that I "feel" like the issue is resolved to have it happen again the next day. I have tried all 4 inputs with the same results. I am done troubleshooting and want to rid my life of this thing that "cannot" be broken, only my setup is at fault. It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.


CCool96 has offered to help and asked about your setup and pics of your info screens....not forthcoming.

I would believe earths moon left orbit for another planet before I would believe Jim refused to help. Sorry you are frustrated [and admittedly these issues can be frustrating] but calling it a POS is not going to help.....


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## jrp

A general comment on the Radiance Pro inputs:

Unlike outputs which can be measured on the Tektronix HDMI tester, inputs are harder to test.

I did a test that does show the Radiance Pro inputs are robust. It is not an absolute test because that really cannot be done (other than a differential-TDR measurement). What can be done is to send various quality HDMI signals into the device. Here is the test I was able to perform:

I used a 18 GHz output from a UHD Bluray player as the source running at 18 GHz. I tested with 2, 3, 5, and 8 meter passive 18 GHz certified HDMI cables. The real test is at 8 meters since many devices are not good enough to lock on the HDMI signal after that much attenuation.

The Pro worked perfectly with all lengths.

I then tested two different name-brand TVs, since these are known for having excellent HDMI inputs. The TVs were fine at 2, 3, and 5 meter lengths. Using the 8 meter length, at 18 GHz, neither TV ever showed a picture. 

=== 

Compatibility can also play a part. This requires a one-on-one test. When we have had devices that showed issues with the Radiance Pro we have been able to get one and figure out the issue. I can say that when we figure the issue out, historically, the issue is not with the Radiance Pro input design, but rather with the other device's output. We work around the issues when we can, and send information to the source manufacturer for issues we cannot work around. As an example a while back we sent Zappiti some information on some HDMI protocols they were not following.

=== 

No device is perfect, but we have been through the ringer with HDMI for 17 years now and we have been able to work through the HDMI issues that have been reported to us.


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## desray2k

I recalled Jim mentioned in one of his YouTube interview on Radiance Pro that he has been spending more time troubleshooting other equipment (sources, cables etc) in the video chain instead of the Lumagen Radiance Pro itself. More often than not, it is related to HDMI issue. Both display, sources and everything in between (cables , switches) might be the cause of the problem.


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## Karl Maga

FenceMan said:


> Have you tried plugging them into a different video processor?





FenceMan said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. I am no troll…


Oh, ok then.

Glad you straightened that out.


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## Karl Maga

drewmanfu0 said:


> Seriously how does he know I have ZERO product knowledge. FTG


Well, we can tell a lot from your posts, though they are exceedingly few.

It’s unfortunate that you’ve only had a chance to trash a popular product, and have no other posts in your history. I’m certain that it’s just a coincidence. I hope you find a resolution.


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## Craig Peer

Karl Maga said:


> Well, we can tell a lot from your posts, though they are exceedingly few.
> 
> It’s unfortunate that you’ve only had a chance to trash a popular product, and have no other posts in your history. I’m certain that it’s just a coincidence. I hope you find a resolution.


I'd like to know why someone is using a " $6000 video processor " with a " $ 600 TV ".


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## jrp

General comment on 4k, or newer 1080, sources and the Radiance XE:

We stopped selling the RadianceXE in circa 2012, and the last software update was in early 2015. Source developed after that time may well have issues not addressed by the RadianceXE software.

We do have customers using the RadianceXE and the Radiance 21XX models in front of a Radiance Pro to get analog source support. So these do work to drive the Radiance Pro.

drewmanfu0:

I do not know if you have done the following but it would provide additional information.

For sources you want to send into the RadianceXE, use only the source to the RadianceXE to your TV. Make sure this connection works for switching etc. As mentioned above, sources newer than late 2014 can have issues the RadianceXE cannot address. I say this because there have been issues in sources, such as the Fire Stick, that we have had to work around in the Radiance Pro. The RadianceXE does not have the benefit of this work.

Try all the sources directly to the Radiance Pro. We do recommend the "box" version of the Amazon Fire since they work better, but we do have people using the Fire Stick successfully.

====

Finally since I have not seen emails on this, or at least not your results, it is likely your emails went to our SPAM folder, assuming you sent one or more recently. Our SPAM unfortunately does stop some emails we would like to get, even from people I have corresponded with. I am wondering if you think I am not responding to your email, assuming you sent them, and the simple explanation is I never received them. This may not be it, but I can say I have not received email I can attribute to this issue recently. I do recall something from a bit ago that I do think was from you, but nothing recently.


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## desray2k

Updated my 4242 and already encountered a screen glitch with my Sony VW995ES projector with the alpha firmware. 4K60 resolution caused the screen to glitch. Did a factory reset doesn't help. Already reported to Jim and his team. Hopefully there is a fix.









I guess I need to revert to the last stable firmware (090121).

EDIT: revert to the last stable firmware (090121) and everything is working fine now...

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## desray2k

Jim suggested I unplug the wall AC outlet and plug back in but the problem didn't go away. I understand from Jim that other projector owners didn't face this 4K60 issue. Not sure why mine do. Hopefully there is a fix soon (for my case).


Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## FenceMan

Great that you all have (apparently) finally bullied this person into submission. I happen to know him and he has in fact been refused service. He offered to send in his processor, and even offered to pay for the service. You think someone just pops on here that angry and upset after a couple of minutes of troubleshooting fails? Dude has been working at it for weeks / months spending money on sources and cables as directed by Lumagen.

You all also act as if no one else has issues with Lumagen HDMI compatibility, as if this is one bad apple in a sea of happy customers.....all you have to do is follow this thread and you will see that is not true. I have nothing bad to say about Jim or Lumagen, I have dealt with issues with Lumagen before and recieved stellar support but in this case with this customer the ball has been dropped and service was in fact refused. The reason I know about this is my familiarity with the Lumagen products, that is the level of troubleshooting this person has done, he has reached out to not only Lumagen but other Lumagen owners, former owners, anyone that would listen in fact. The fact that he hasn't posted much about it on *this* platform doenst make his knowledge on video any less nor make his level of frustration any less understandable.

I know for a fact this has been dragging on for a very long time and I also know that he has done everything he has been asked to do by Lumagen and they still refuse to service the processor. I hope this ruckus now finally changes this and dude gets his expensive processor fixed.

By the way the price shaming of his TV by what I thought was a very respected person is very classy. I have an $8,000.00 projector with a $5,000.00 DCR lens so hopefully that makes my word mean more in your eyes than the poor servant with only a $600.00 TV. Hopefully there are some people out there that remember when they started building thier theaters (most of us don't have the budget to go all in, all at once, we have to build a system over months / years).

And to the guy calling me a MadVR troll I was asking if he'd used the same sources on other Lumagen's NOT what you think. I was attempting to calm him down and get him to explain the issue better anticipating the way you guys were going to react (and you didn't disappoint). This person owns multiple Lumagen products (nothing to do with the competition). Once again the dogs have come out to hunt anyone with a less than positive thing to say about Lumagen.....


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## Geof

^^
I can't speak for anyone else but I personally was not trying to shame anyone. He is frustrated and that clearly shows in his posts....I understand that and have been there myself. But the best approach would be to calmy and clealry describe the problem and see if the forum folks could help -- and several have offered help. Jrp has offered help. Going all out nuclear with the POS stuff doesn't help solicit answers. I know I am still confused about his setup and what the info screens are showing so I can offer no real help. I am not fully understanding why this information has not been given when asked for by CCool96. Another pertinent quesiton is how is his particular 4242 configured? Are the inputs 9Ghz or 18Ghz (or two of each)? Is the output an 18Ghz output or two 9GHz outputs? I'm sure forum members will offer help and suggestions but we need more info.

Hey we all reach our breaking point at times (I know I have over a product or two). II don't think he's 'burned any bridges' on this forum and with more info perhaps the forum members can help.

One other question that occurred to me overnight is it sounded like he's gotten it to work at times but it's not reliable? If that is the case then I would suggest looking at the internal temp reading and possibly setting the fan to a higher speed if it's running warm.


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## arsenalfc89

Just received my new Lumagen and I keep getting green and purple colors in 4K content using Apple TV. This doesn’t seem to happen with 1080p content. Any idea what’s going on?


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## bobof

arsenalfc89 said:


> Just received my new Lumagen and I keep getting green and purple colors in 4K content using Apple TV. This doesn’t seem to happen with 1080p content. Any idea what’s going on?


AppleTV can often switch pixel formats between different content types / refreshes / etc, and the AppletTV UI that allows you to believe that you can try and configure this is wildly deficient. If you have the input set to a fixed pixel format in the Radiance perhaps you might see this, as that is usually what green / purple content means (the input pixel format expectation doesn't match what the output is sending).

I'd have a look around all those settings to see if there is some mismatch.


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## Karl Maga

FenceMan said:


> Great that you all have (apparently) finally bullied this person into submission.


100% of your friend's posts have been crass and inflammatory. There isn't an owner's thread on this site that wouldn't respond the same way.


FenceMan said:


> Dude has been working at it for weeks


How are we supposed to know that? All we've seen is a guy with no posting history come in here with a surly demeanor, lobbing grenades and refusing to provide information to those trying to assist. But how apropos that _you_ would be the one defending his behavior.


FenceMan said:


> And to the guy calling me a MadVR troll I was asking if he'd used the same sources on other Lumagen's NOT what you think.


I find your explanation disingenuous; your historical behavior contradicts any claim of good intentions.


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## Clark Burk

drewmanfu0 said:


> How have I not done troubleshooting? I have ordered 4 different fire TVs, about 9 different highly rated cables, a Roku, a Sony UHD player and finally with reluctance a $120 cable. Still have the same exact issue I started with. It's baloney that I "feel" like the issue is resolved to have it happen again the next day. I have tried all 4 inputs with the same results. I am done troubleshooting and want to rid my life of this thing that "cannot" be broken, only my setup is at fault. It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.


I have no real experience with the FireTVs through a Lumagen. I have used them connected directly to TVs HDMI inputs but not through a video processor. I'm not really sure how you are connecting everything but if you haven't tried this yet it may be worth a try. Some have had better luck with HDMI issues using their AVR as the input hub versus the Lumagen. In other words connect your Amazon devices and blu-ray to the HDMI inputs on the receiver and connect the receivers HDMI output to input one on the Lumagen. Then connect the Lumagen video output to an input on the TV. Also try and disable any CEC control on your Amazon device. You don't want the CEC control messing with the HDMI syncs. If this setup is possible and you haven't tried it yet give it a shot.


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## arsenalfc89

bobof said:


> AppleTV can often switch pixel formats between different content types / refreshes / etc, and the AppletTV UI that allows you to believe that you can try and configure this is wildly deficient. If you have the input set to a fixed pixel format in the Radiance perhaps you might see this, as that is usually what green / purple content means (the input pixel format expectation doesn't match what the output is sending).
> 
> I'd have a look around all those settings to see if there is some mismatch.


I don’t see any mismatches and I have match frame rate and dynamic range turned off on the Apple TV. Seeing a lot of artifacts and HDMI going in and out but with 1080 no problem.


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## desray2k

Clark Burk said:


> I have no real experience with the FireTVs through a Lumagen. I have used them connected directly to TVs HDMI inputs but not through a video processor. I'm not really sure how you are connecting everything but if you haven't tried this yet it may be worth a try. Some have had better luck with HDMI issues using their AVR as the input hub versus the Lumagen. In other words connect your Amazon devices and blu-ray to the HDMI inputs on the receiver and connect the receivers HDMI output to input one on the Lumagen. Then connect the Lumagen video output to an input on the TV. Also try and disable any CEC control on your Amazon device. You don't want the CEC control messing with the HDMI syncs. If this setup is possible and you haven't tried it yet give it a shot.


That's exactly what I have suggested to him a few post earlier. Up

Sent from my M2105K81AC using Tapatalk


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## Karl Maga

arsenalfc89 said:


> I don’t see any mismatches and I have match frame rate and dynamic range turned off on the Apple TV. Seeing a lot of artifacts and HDMI going in and out but with 1080 no problem.


With match frame rate and dynamic range turned off, everything is being output by your ATV at ATV's output resolution and frequency setting. What do you have that set to?


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## arsenalfc89

Karl Maga said:


> With match frame rate and dynamic range turned off, everything is being output by your ATV at ATV's output resolution and frequency setting. What do you have that set to?


This is set to 4K SDR (59.94Hz), YCbCr 4:4:4


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## bobof

arsenalfc89 said:


> I don’t see any mismatches and I have match frame rate and dynamic range turned off on the Apple TV. Seeing a lot of artifacts and HDMI going in and out but with 1080 no problem.


Purple / green usually means that something is sending RGB and expecting YCrCb, or vice-versa. Could be between display and Radiance, or between source and Radiance, or other issue. I've just simulated it being incorrect in a couple of ways in my Radiance to give some examples, see below.
If it is at the input side of Radiance like in these examples, then the Radiance OSD colours are correct.
If the mismatch is on the output side of the Radiance, then the Radiance OSD colours will also be incorrect.

Maybe if you can share some images of it going wrong with the Lumagen OSD on screen (press OK on the remote to bring up the input / output information page) then folk in this thread can try and get you going


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## bobof

arsenalfc89 said:


> I don’t see any mismatches and I have match frame rate and dynamic range turned off on the Apple TV. Seeing a lot of artifacts and HDMI going in and out but with 1080 no problem.


Edit: just re-reading your post; not clear if you are saying your colours are permanently incorrect, or they are flickering to the wrong colours and back to the right colours. Perhaps you can give some more info about exactly how it is failing and what your display setup is.

For instance, I think there is an occasional flickering incorrect colours issue with the new JVC laser projectors at the moment, which can be worked around it seems perhaps with a pre-release projector firmware version.


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## arsenalfc89

bobof said:


> Edit: just re-reading your post; not clear if you are saying your colours are permanently incorrect, or they are flickering to the wrong colours and back to the right colours. Perhaps you can give some more info about exactly how it is failing and what your display setup is.
> 
> For instance, I think there is an occasional flickering incorrect colours issue with the new JVC laser projectors at the moment, which can be worked around it seems perhaps with a pre-release projector firmware version.


Appreciate you all looking into this. As you can see in the attached there are green tints to the image and some weird artifacts on videos as well. I did turn on match range to see if that helps but nope.


----------



## FenceMan

Karl Maga said:


> I find your explanation disingenuous; your historical behavior contradicts any claim of good intentions.


I'm disingenuous but shaming a poster for the cost of the TV is perfectly fine, got it.


----------



## bobof

arsenalfc89 said:


> Appreciate you all looking into this. As you can see in the attached there are green tints to the image and some weird artifacts on videos as well. I did turn on match range to see if that helps but nope.
> 
> View attachment 3239650
> 
> View attachment 3239652
> 
> View attachment 3239653
> 
> View attachment 3239651


OK, a picture's worth a thousand words, that looks like something very different to what I was assuming.
I've not seen that ever on my system, I'd ping [email protected] an email with those pictures, maybe a video to see how the image changes (or not).

Some generic suggestions of where I'd be going myself if it was happening to me: Is it just the AppleTV that does it? Do you have more than one input on your Radiance that you can try? And did you try a factory reset on the Radiance to see if that does anything?

Hope you get sorted


----------



## Gordon Fraser

arsenalfc89 said:


> Appreciate you all looking into this. As you can see in the attached there are green tints to the image and some weird artifacts on videos as well. I did turn on match range to see if that helps but nope.


You need to contact your supplier of the Lumagen. That looks like a hardware issue to me. I'd do the following.

1: Try an alternate input if you can and see it it works on that. (not input2) Input 3 or 4
2: Make sure the cable is the spec recommended by Lumagen, 3m 18Gbs rated

I do think you need to contact supplier though.


----------



## Erod

FenceMan said:


> I'm disingenuous but shaming a poster for the cost of the TV is perfectly fine, got it.


The same poster with the $600 TV bought a $5,000+ Lumagen?

I don't know why I'm weighing in here, but we've all had our journeys in this hobby, so there's no shaming about it. We've all had frustrating issues and lost our cool a bit, but his manner isn't helping people help him. I'm sure Jim will do everything within reason to help him as always.

I hope he calms down and gets a dialog working with Jim to figure it out. I'm certain there's a reason and a solution.


----------



## FenceMan

Erod said:


> The same poster with the $600 TV bought a $5,000+ Lumagen?
> 
> I don't know why I'm weighing in here, but we've all had our journeys in this hobby, so there's no shaming about it. We've all had frustrating issues and lost our cool a bit, but his manner isn't helping people help him. I'm sure Jim will do everything within reason to help him as always.
> 
> I hope he calms down and gets a dialog working with Jim to figure it out. I'm certain there's a reason and a solution.


What part of he's tried don't you get? Dialog has been going on for weeks, he's clearly stated he's tried *all* of Lumagen's recommendations and yet they refuse to take it in for repair. In the context of "they" when it comes to Lumagen I think it's implied that "they" is Jim.

Also if you read you'll notice he is saying that a $600 TV accepts signals that his Lumagen does not, he never states that his main TV is $600, not that it should matter.


----------



## arsenalfc89

bobof said:


> OK, a picture's worth a thousand words, that looks like something very different to what I was assuming.
> I've not seen that ever on my system, I'd ping [email protected] an email with those pictures, maybe a video to see how the image changes (or not).
> 
> Some generic suggestions of where I'd be going myself if it was happening to me: Is it just the AppleTV that does it? Do you have more than one input on your Radiance that you can try? And did you try a factory reset on the Radiance to see if that does anything?
> 
> Hope you get sorted


I just emailed support. This issue happens to all the inputs and I’ve also factory reset multiple times. I even plugged in a Fire TV and that was worse. Really appreciate your help tho.


----------



## Erod

FenceMan said:


> What part of he's tried don't you get? Dialog has been going on for weeks, he's clearly stated he's tried *all* of Lumagen's recommendations and yet they refuse to take it in for repair. In the context of "they" when it comes to Lumagen I think it's implied that "they" is Jim.
> 
> Also if you read you'll notice he is saying that a $600 TV accepts signals that his Lumagen does not, he never states that his main TV is $600, not that it should matter.


Jim says otherwise.

I've heard nobody make such claims against Lumagen customer service, so I tend to be skeptical about that. Yes, there are cable idiosyncrasies that are irritating, we all agree, but those get resolved eventually. I had my run with that. 

I definitely want the guy to get his system issues resolved somehow. Has he established that dialog with Jim after this recent forum exchange? Hope so.


----------



## arsenalfc89

Gordon Fraser said:


> You need to contact your supplier of the Lumagen. That looks like a hardware issue to me. I'd do the following.
> 
> 1: Try an alternate input if you can and see it it works on that. (not input2) Input 3 or 4
> 2: Make sure the cable is the spec recommended by Lumagen, 3m 18Gbs rated
> 
> I do think you need to contact supplier though.


I‘m using the recommended mononoprice cables. What’s weird is if I remove all the other sources and just connect the Lumagen to the projector there are no issues. Also all the inputs have the same issue.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Nice tip from jockychan with deinterlacing. I would think this is the same for all satellite boxes worldwide.

jockychan
Nice tip if anyone is using Sky HD or Sky Q deinterlacing with Lumagen. Make sure the Field is switched to Auto. I discovered some deinterlacing channels by Sky are actually sending the field wrong way. This is a great little feature. When the lumagen Field does it's job when at Auto sometimes when i change channels on the Q. The screen wables for a millisecond. That's the lumagen correcting the field the correct way. This is very handy especially with the improvements wi pipeline with deinterlacing.

Input = In Configs=1080=Control= Deinterlacing = Field= Flip Field Auto. save save.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

arsenalfc89 said:


> I‘m using the recommended mononoprice cables. What’s weird is if I remove all the other sources and just connect the Lumagen to the projector there are no issues. Also all the inputs have the same issue.


Im not sure i follow what you mean here...if you have no sources connected you can't view any content which has gone through the processing pipeline to determine whether its working correctly. The fact any source and all inputs exhibit this issue suggests to me there is an internal hardware fault on the main board. Your supplier should be your first port of call

Gordon


----------



## arsenalfc89

Gordon Fraser said:


> Im not sure i fllow what you mean here...if you have no sources connected you can't view any content which has gone through the processing pipeline to determine whether its working correctly. The fact any source and all inputs exhibit htis issue suggests to me there is an internal hardware fault on the main board. Your supplier should be your first port of call
> 
> Gordon


Let me clarify further, using the Lumagen as a pattern generator doesn’t seems to have these issues. At the time I was thinking something was wrong with the cables.


----------



## jrp

arsenalfc89 said:


> Appreciate you all looking into this. As you can see in the attached there are green tints to the image and some weird artifacts on videos as well. I did turn on match range to see if that helps but nope.
> 
> View attachment 3239651


The image has data bit issues. It looks like the Radiance Pro unit might have been damaged in shipping. I think we are going to need to send you a replacement unit.

I answered your text so we can talk directly.


----------



## jrp

arsenalfc89 said:


> I just emailed support. This issue happens to all the inputs and I’ve also factory reset multiple times. I even plugged in a Fire TV and that was worse. Really appreciate your help tho.


This solves part of the mystery since your email never arrived.

I am going to PM you my cell number.


----------



## arsenalfc89

jrp said:


> The image has data bit issues. It looks like the Radiance Pro unit might have been damaged in shipping. I think we are going to need to send you a replacement unit.
> 
> I answered your text so we can talk directly.


Jim,

Thank you for speaking with me. In my line of occupation, I do a lot of work with different companies and this to me is A++ customer service.


----------



## jrp

drewmanfu0 said:


> I have contacted lumagen and they refuse to accept the processor is broke. I have offered to send it in. I have changed the recommended settings. Please continue to blame me. It's not the device, verified with 4 different 4k fire TVs. It's not the streaming service, it happens on the home screen, the screen saver and in every app. It's not the cables, I have used the recommended length of tributaries cables. Still experiencing dropout, even the lumagen menu won't show during a dropout.
> 
> What's sad is a $600 TV will accept pretty much whatever trashy signal you throw at it but a $6k processor struggles with a single blip of fricken "jitter"


I have no recollection of _ever_ refusing someone sending in a Radiance Pro for testing. I would not do that. I do often ask people to do more testing before we resort to sending in the unit.

I just PM'd you my cell number. Please call, or you can text me your email since I do not have any emails that I can identify as yours.


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> I have no recollection of _ever_ refusing someone sending in a Radiance Pro for testing. I would not do that. I do often ask people to do more testing before we resort to sending in the unit.
> 
> I just PM'd you my cell number. Please call, or you can text me your email since I do not have any emails that I can identify as yours.


 Outstanding ....


----------



## thebland

SJHT said:


> Trying to understand your setup for 1080p sources. You mention 1080P sources going to the Pro and then 1080P sources going through a *Radiance XE*?


This. Trying to understand the configuration here...


----------



## SJHT

thebland said:


> This. Trying to understand the configuration here...


Jim mentioned maybe using the XE for analog sources….


----------



## Jue Liang

Deleted.


----------



## desray2k

arsenalfc89 said:


> I just emailed support. This issue happens to all the inputs and I’ve also factory reset multiple times. I even plugged in a Fire TV and that was worse. Really appreciate your help tho.


Deleted...


----------



## desray2k

Jue Liang said:


> @jrp Hi Jim, I don't know if you blocked my email address or not. I sent you a coupe of emails and look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks!


Jim has this very "aggressive" email spam filter installed. My emails to him were sent to his spam filter. Like you, I also made known to him in this forum, only then he realized it. One thing for certain, he is NOT blocking you. You can rest easy. Now just hope Jim will filter through the spam inbox to retrieve your emails. Good luck!


----------



## Jue Liang

desray2k said:


> Jim has this very "aggressive" email spam filter installed. My emails to him were sent to his spam filter. Like you, I also made known to him in this forum, only then he realized it. One thing for certain, he is NOT blocking you. You can rest easy. Now just hope Jim will filter through the spam inbox to retrieve your emails. Good luck!


I just heard back from him a few minutes ago  Actually, he and I have emailed back and forth many times before.


----------



## jrp

asharma said:


> Hi folks…just trying to wrap my simple mind around this…Hoping someone can help me better understand…
> 
> Without a DCR, but with the Lumagen set to output 4096 in the loop, when I setup my installation mode with the screen pattern, I get get the outside lines of the pattern to align with the edge of the screen, but the top is a few inches below onto the screen and the bottom line is a few inches above on the screen…I couldn’t get all 4 lines lined up so I decided to throw in a 2.40 movie…well it lines up perfectly but not without using a value of 9 for the top and bottom shrink for the Lumagen…I think for 3840 the shrink number is actually 12…
> 
> when I add the DCR, I can then set the shrink number to 0 for top and bottom and everything lines up perfect on the screen pattern and on the movie…
> 
> what is actually happening here? Why do I need a shrink of 9 without the DCR for 4096 or a shrink of 12 for 3840? Does it have something to do with the black bars and also adding more FC with the shrink option as there is more video content on the screen?
> 
> Also “shrink” seems to expand the image or perhaps I’m way off here…
> 
> thanks folks


Without the anamorphic lens, when you increase the output to 4096 wide you get a 13.8% increase in light (((4096/3840)^2)=1.137778). Panamorph includes this increase in their light output marketing numbers. You do not need a lens to run the Radiance Pro output at 4096 wide and gain (roughly) 13.8% light output, assuming you have a projector that uses a 4096 wide chip.

Using 4096 versus 3840 out, increases how many pixels vertically are need for a given aspect ratio screen. For example, if you have the image width and height correct for 3840 output width, and change the output to 4096 wide, the image is too wide. So you use the projector lens zoom to make the picture width smaller. This in turn makes the height smaller. Then to make the image fill the height you have to reduce the output top and/or bottom shrink. So the vertical Shrink will be less for 4096 wide output versus 3840.

Vertical lens shift increases the height to width ratio. This is like pointing a flashlight perpendicular to the screen, then angling it down. The circle of light becomes an ellipse. Because of this, vertical-lens-shift affects the “output shrink” values needed. Lens-shift will also reduce the light output.

The Shrink feature reduces the area of the projector raster used for the active image. So IMO “Shrink” is a good name for this feature.


----------



## asherman8

Hoping someone can help me troubleshoot my LRP (4242), AppleTV, Sony VPL VW885ES. 
Pretty much every time I turn my system on, I get no picture (or it flickers on and off). I do a bunch of cycling on/off the LRP, AppleTV, projector, unplugging/plugging cables (the “fix” is completely random), I’ll finally get a picture and then everything works perfect for hours. I come back the next day, same thing. It’s not the end of the world, just annoying. My whole system is Tributaries cables (now 3m). From the LRP to the projector, I have an active 15m tributaries cable. I’ve changed inputs, no magic fix. My only input source is the AppleTV so it’s not like I can say other sources working fine. 

When I finally get it working with a little unplugging/restarting of this and that, it works mesmerizingly good!!

Thoughts/suggestions?


----------



## Jue Liang

Report on the Alpha release:

First and most importantly, with 4k60P contents I saw a huge improvement! Please see the pictures below, they worth thousands of words. *Please keep in mind that these photos were not taken on the same day.* The pictures showing the Alpha release were taken tonight with a cellphone, and the projector was not fully warmed up so there was some convergence issue. Other pictures were taken last year with a DSLR, and the projector was fully warmed up. So please don't judge the picture quality based on the photos.

What I want to show here is that the fine line details have been screwed up with the current/past Lumagen firmwares. But the Alpha release completely eliminated those artifacts and has no problem resolving the fine line details in the 4k60P contents!
































I also want to say that I might have seen some minor improvements for 16:9 contents downscaling on a 2.40 screen, and normal 4k24 in and out. They look cleaner than before. But these improvements are *not nearly* as obvious as the improvements on 4k60P contents, and I do not have solid evidence to show that (like the pictures above). So I will leave this part to other testers.

Congratulations to Jim and Patrick and every Lumagen owner for such a great improvement!


----------



## jrp

asherman8 said:


> Hoping someone can help me troubleshoot my LRP (4242), AppleTV, Sony VPL VW885ES.
> Pretty much every time I turn my system on, I get no picture (or it flickers on and off). I do a bunch of cycling on/off the LRP, AppleTV, projector, unplugging/plugging cables (the “fix” is completely random), I’ll finally get a picture and then everything works perfect for hours. I come back the next day, same thing. It’s not the end of the world, just annoying. My whole system is Tributaries cables (now 3m). From the LRP to the projector, I have an active 15m tributaries cable. I’ve changed inputs, no magic fix. My only input source is the AppleTV so it’s not like I can say other sources working fine.
> 
> When I finally get it working with a little unplugging/restarting of this and that, it works mesmerizingly good!!
> 
> Thoughts/suggestions?


I just emailed you the Alpha release. Please test the new "Delay HDCP" feature. It has helped two different Sony models lock on (the HDCP-delay, not the Alpha release).


----------



## desray2k

Glad to know alpha release has been working fine for most people. I guess I'm the unlucky one with screen glitch. Hopefully Jim has a solution for me soon. Looking at the raving reviews of the alpha release makes me want to get it even more. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

drewmanfu0 said:


> I have contacted lumagen and they refuse to accept the processor is broke. I have offered to send it in. I have changed the recommended settings. Please continue to blame me. It's not the device, verified with 4 different 4k fire TVs. It's not the streaming service, it happens on the home screen, the screen saver and in every app. It's not the cables, I have used the recommended length of tributaries cables. Still experiencing dropout, even the lumagen menu won't show during a dropout.
> 
> What's sad is a $600 TV will accept pretty much whatever trashy signal you throw at it but a $6k processor struggles with a single blip of fricken "jitter"


As I was trying to recall this situation, I remembered what I believe are your phone calls. However, my recollection of the last call is dramatically different from yours.

The history is you called about intermittent dropouts. I said they were likely cable related and you did purchase my recommended cables. That is all well and good.

You then called to say they did not resolve the issue. This is where my memory and yours diverge.

I recall you asked if you should send in the unit, and I said I did not think it was the Radiance Pro and that we needed to do more testing with a different setup. That was not a refusal of service. That was our standard procedure to get to the bottom of the problem as best we could.

I do this for both the customer's and Lumagen's benefit. I have had a number of units come back as having issues that pass all tests. If the customer is paying for shipping on an out of warranty unit, I want to be as sure as possible that it makes sense to send the unit in before I ask them to spend the money. We also have a bench fee if sent in, but I do not charge for the remote debug help.

When a unit comes in and fails, that is a simple process. We replace the bad board and ship back.

However, when a unit comes in and passes our testing, it takes a lot of my time personally since I have to run a lot more tests, and leave it running on the bench for a few days to try to catch any issues. And then test some more. This takes hours of my time and the result is that in almost all cases I confirm the unit works fine. So, I think everyone can see why I want the best field testing possible.

After your call, and my request for further testing, I never heard from you again, until your posts here.

So, we can chalk it up to miscommunication and I again offer help. If you want help I will get you an RMA for you to send in your unit. You can send an email to lumagen.com support and I will send you information on sending in your unit. I am on vacation but have been able to respond to emails within about a day. If you do not hear back in that time you can post here and I can search our SPAM folder for your email. Or call my cell number that I PM'd to you earlier.


----------



## DigitalAV

Jue Liang said:


> Report on the Alpha release:
> 
> First and most importantly, with 4k60P contents I saw a huge improvement! Please see the pictures below, they worth thousands of words. *Please keep in mind that these photos were not taken on the same day.* The pictures showing the Alpha release were taken tonight with a cellphone, and the projector was not fully warmed up so there was some convergence issue. Other pictures were taken last year with a DSLR, and the projector was fully warmed up. So please don't judge the picture quality based on the photos.
> 
> What I want to show here is that the fine line details have been screwed up with the current/past Lumagen firmwares. But the Alpha release completely eliminated those artifacts and has no problem resolving the fine line details in the 4k60P contents!
> 
> View attachment 3239937
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3239938
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3239939
> 
> 
> 
> I also want to say that I saw some improvements for 16:9 contents downscaling on a 2.40 screen, and normal 4k24 in and out. They look cleaner than before. But these improvements are not nearly as obvious as the improvements on 4k60P contents, and I do not have solid evidence to show that (like the pictures above). So I will leave this part to other testers.
> 
> Congratulations to Jim and Patrick and every Lumagen owner for such a great improvement!


This is badass, thanks for sharing & big grats to Jim/Patrick/Lumagen for sure!


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Glad to know alpha release has been working fine for most people. I guess I'm the unlucky one with screen glitch. Hopefully Jim has a solution for me soon. Looking at the raving reviews of the alpha release makes me want to get it even more.


As I mentioned in the Alpha release email, the FPGA in the initial Alpha release is not at production speed for timing synthesis, and that it might not work in all systems. This is unfortunately the case for your system.

Given how much work it is getting an FPGA to meet timing, we decided to send the Alpha release with an FPGA synthesis that was close and that would work for most systems so we could start getting feedback.

We will likely do the same for future Alpha releases to increase the number of iterations and shorten the time to Beta release. I expect the Beta release will have a full speed FPGA synthesis.

NOTE: Try each Alpha release as the timing shortfalls are often in a different aspect of the FPGA for different releases, and so the next one _might_ work in your system even if not at full speed.

Thanks to all the Alpha testers for the great feedback, and thanks for your patience if the Alpha release does not work in your unit.


----------



## woofer

Brief Feedback RE alpha release... 

Using JVC Z1/RS4500 on 143" Scope Screen.

*4k 60p *....Agree with others !! HUGE improvement here !!!! 
Coming from madVR HTPC and madVR Envy that is the one aspect that i observed that the Lumagen was lacking in .....but not now....very happy with the new results ! Awesome job !

*4k 24p* ......Well........i will be the odd one out here as i do not see any change from the current public firmware ....


----------



## bobof

The 4k60 visible differences noted are night and day better for anyone who'd previously seen the issues I am sure, it's instantly recognisable just from the Netflix logo on the AppleTV homescreen. 

I did a bit of viewing at 24p yesterday and I thought it looked excellent, but I'd have to admit I didn't have any obvious 4k24 deficiencies previous to look for. I did think there was a little more clarity observable from memory, but I'd have to try and do some back to back viewing to be sure. Performance was always excellent at 24p previously for me anyway.

The new HDCP delay feature looks useful, from a quick bit of testing it seems to have made the output to my X7900 a bit more robust when switching to other devices, which is welcome. In general the alpha release hangs together well, I've left it running in the theatre as it seems perfectly useable in my system.

I'd noticed a few weeks ago pre-pipeline update that I'd occasionally get unexpected readings at 4k60 when calibrating, and on a bit closer investigation it looked to me like some kind of bit accuracy / conversion artifact. Glad to say that the alpha version (which I've been running for a couple of days now) seems to fix this.

I had to use an external pattern generator, as the internal patterns are currently work in progress; I did the measurements in Colourspace back to back for the previous release firmware vs the alpha release. I measured every single 8 bit grey value between 16 and 235, which shows that you often wouldn't have noticed unless you got lucky / unlucky with the exact value you measured, as many of the points between old and new were identical, but then occasionally diverged quite significantly.

Note this is measured from lens on an uncalibrated X7900 just to show the difference.

Old vs new:
















Zoomed in a bit on the dark end of the greyscale it is particularly noticeable:


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I installed the alpha release tonight to have a look at it. I could notice straight away the improvement in scaling 16:9 onto 2:40 screens.

Also 4k60 gets a nice improvement.

This is the Netflix logo from the Apple TV. It’s been projected through my JVC and anamorphic lens. Essentially 16:9 onto a 2:35 screen

before update









After update


----------



## Javs

I found a pretty big bug with the Alpha FW that seems to shift either the red RGB channel or red chroma info over to the left a number of pixels, at least half a dozen pixels, its in 1080p and 2160p that I could see. Upscaling, downscaling, 2160p passthrough, 8 bit and 10 bit.

Ive had Paul (woofer) now confirm seeing it on his projector too. Just a heads up for those testing the alpha if you see it. Have reported to jim and support I am sure they will solve it in due time. It will be particularly noticable on car tail lights, any red lights, red flowers etc. But then when you spot it you can see it affect every object on screen actually with colour fringing etc..

I had Aaron above just test on his machine, he fed it 4:4:4 and didnt see the issue, so maybe it really is a chroma upsampling issue as passthrough doesnt seem to have the problem, from memory that was also my observation, I was mainly testing 422 unput and upscaling etc, its also in downscaling, but 444 input seems to not show the issue.


----------



## Clark Burk

Thanks goes to all the Alpha testers. I appreciate the work you all have done on the testing. Hopefully we will all soon share in a better performing Lumagen


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> NOTE: Try each Alpha release as the timing shortfalls are often in a different aspect of the FPGA for different releases, and so the next one _might_ work in your system even if not at full speed.
> 
> Thanks to all the Alpha testers for the great feedback, and thanks for your patience if the Alpha release does not work in your unit.


Thanks Jim for the update. Truly appreciated. Looking forward to the next Alpha in my case I guess.


----------



## bobof

Javs said:


> I had Aaron above just test on his machine, he fed it 4:4:4 and didnt see the issue, so maybe it really is a chroma upsampling issue as passthrough doesnt seem to have the problem, from memory that was also my observation, I was mainly testing 422 unput and upscaling etc, its also in downscaling, but 444 input seems to not show the issue.


I was going to ask for some details as I didn't notice this, and I did have a look with various patterns (not for this specifically, just in general yesterday), but I wasn't doing any scaling and I think all my stuff was set to 444 out. But Jim did mention to me there was an issue with something along these lines yesterday in an email and that it was already being investigated, so I don't doubt it will be sorted.


----------



## Javs

bobof said:


> I was going to ask for some details as I didn't notice this, and I did have a look with various patterns (not for this specifically, just in general yesterday), but I wasn't doing any scaling and I think all my stuff was set to 444 out. But Jim did mention to me there was an issue with something along these lines yesterday in an email and that it was already being investigated, so I don't doubt it will be sorted.


Yeah I think 444 in and out you won't see it.

You don't have to do actual upscaling you will see it with 422 in and 422 out also on 2160p 10bit content. At least I do here as well as Paul with the same test file. 

You can test this if you have a way to play it. It's just 10bit SDR. 



https://www.dropbox.com/s/xujs085h7y5r9jq/tropical%20vans%20uhd%2010bit.mp4?dl=1


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Yeah I think 444 in and out you won't see it.
> 
> You don't have to do actual upscaling you will see it with 422 in and 422 out also on 2160p 10bit content. At least I do here as well as Paul with the same test file.
> 
> You can test this if you have a way to play it. It's just 10bit SDR.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xujs085h7y5r9jq/tropical%20vans%20uhd%2010bit.mp4?dl=1


I had reported seeing some issues with red to Pat before, I think it was an issue pre-Alpha as well. Pat also mentioned he was aware of some chroma issues that are on the list, but great catch! 

I think you testing 422 in to out is probably the best as that is what Lumagen recommends and the default setup that most will be using. Outputting 444 is dithering on the output for 60p while 422 will not be (dithering from 10 bit to 8 bit, 422 is all done at 12 bit).


----------



## Erod

Exciting stuff, especially with all the series streaming I do these days on Netflix, Disney+, etc.

Per Kris Deering, my system is set up for 422, but I'm tempted to change it to 444 now and ask Jim for the alpha to test myself. How long until beta?


----------



## dlinsley

Javs said:


> It will be particularly noticable on car tail lights


I'll have to go back and re-watch some of the content I was testing with or note it for my ophthalmologist appointment later this month  I didn't notice this when the brake lights come on at the start of the car chase scene in Black Panther. Given that, take my comments with a handful of salt!

I use a scope screen with the DCR lens, and so all content is scaled. In addition to the photos shown by others, 4k60 improvement is obvious. We watch some TV in our theater - my youngest daughter is a Family Feud addict - and since it's not critical I tend to forget to switch to my 1080p EDID limiting MemB that prevents the AppleTV from scaling. Stair stepping in YouTube TV is completely eliminated, curves are smooth and the whole picture looks higher resolution. As Jue showed, fine lines are significantly improved - the Spears and Munsil focus pattern is tighter while still halo free. I really want to try out Guy Kuro's fractal tree focus pattern.


----------



## Kris Deering

dlinsley said:


> I'll have to go back and re-watch some of the content I was testing with or note it for my ophthalmologist appointment later this month  I didn't notice this when the brake lights come on at the start of the car chase scene in Black Panther. Given that, take my comments with a handful of salt!
> 
> I use a scope screen with the DCR lens, and so all content is scaled. In addition to the photos shown by others, 4k60 improvement is obvious. We watch some TV in our theater - my youngest daughter is a Family Feud addict - and since it's not critical I tend to forget to switch to my 1080p EDID limiting MemB that prevents the AppleTV from scaling. Stair stepping in YouTube TV is completely eliminated, curves are smooth and the whole picture looks higher resolution. As Jue showed, fine lines are significantly improved - the Spears and Munsil focus pattern is tighter while still halo free. I really want to try out Guy Kuro's fractal tree focus pattern.


It is funny, these threads are overlapping. Matt found the chroma issue using static grabs of content and comparing. Guy has been talking about red alignment and how it is crazy how much you can be misaligned and not notice it with a display in that other thread.


----------



## bobof

Javs said:


> Yeah I think 444 in and out you won't see it.
> 
> You don't have to do actual upscaling you will see it with 422 in and 422 out also on 2160p 10bit content. At least I do here as well as Paul with the same test file.
> 
> You can test this if you have a way to play it. It's just 10bit SDR.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xujs085h7y5r9jq/tropical%20vans%20uhd%2010bit.mp4?dl=1


Interesting, I'm not seeing it to the extent you are. I tried Spears and Munsils chroma alignment charts from BD upscaled in the Lumagen and per the instruction at most it looked to be out half a pixel out (though I was only viewing on an eshifter). Anyway, I'm sure they'll get to the bottom of it.

Edit... Maybe not unexpected given Kris' comments.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> I had reported seeing some issues with red to Pat before, I think it was an issue pre-Alpha as well. Pat also mentioned he was aware of some chroma issues that are on the list, but great catch!
> 
> I think you testing 422 in to out is probably the best as that is what Lumagen recommends and the default setup that most will be using. Outputting 444 is dithering on the output for 60p while 422 will not be (dithering from 10 bit to 8 bit, 422 is all done at 12 bit).


I'm not going to touch 60p. 

But I'll still input 422 to the lumagen. 

Am I mad or was 444 output in ycbcr only added to the new fw and selectable for 24p? Will that be 12bit? It's buggy right now but that will be good when it works.


----------



## esdwa

drewmanfu0 said:


> . It's hard to NOT knock a 6k product that can't do what a $600 product can. Please enlighten me.


As EE for a living and designer of couple FPGA-based custom video adapters for various gaming platforms, I can tell you that in general TV sets are more forgiving when it comes to video signal quality vs. video processors, grabbers or recorders. This was an universal truth in analog video signal era, might also apply to digital video signals used today.

It all depends on how video interlacing circuit is designed in tv... and how in processor. What design tolerances has been used for clock and data lines and whether interface logic can handle these.
Also in general TV set requires less information in the video signal to properly display picture versus typical processor or recorder that uses all the data in the stream. And if it finds some data to be incorrect or corrupt it may cause entire packet frame to be ignored that's causing the problem on the screen.

I remember back in the early 2000 I designed one video adapter and it was working great when coupled with any CRT monitor. The same adapter hook up too early LCD display was showing some picture issues. That's because lcd-tv had the smaller margin of tolerance on video timings and my design wasn't complete yet and it required some adjustments to get the picture right on both.

I'm not saying lumagen suffers some unfinished design issue, I'm just saying lumagen is a complex video processing device that require quality video signal to be fed in. It is a precision tool improve your video experience, for that it requires clean hdmi stream to be fed into.

It's nothing new in this field of industry. 



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## gerard1meehan

Question for those using the Radiance Pro and a Sony 5000ES projector.

What is the the highest Color space you can send to your projector at 4k60p? The info on their web page I find confusing. Either way I only achieve 420 @ 4k60p. I had my Lumagen set to output 4k60p at 4k30P and I could achieve color space 422. I found that picture better than the 4k60P 420.

I was wondering if people with the same/ similar setup had different results. Wondering if that's it's max or do I need to address something in the chain

Thanks!


----------



## MDesigns

Jue Liang said:


> Report on the Alpha release:
> 
> First and most importantly, with 4k60P contents I saw a huge improvement! Please see the pictures below, they worth thousands of words. *Please keep in mind that these photos were not taken on the same day.* The pictures showing the Alpha release were taken tonight with a cellphone, and the projector was not fully warmed up so there was some convergence issue. Other pictures were taken last year with a DSLR, and the projector was fully warmed up. So please don't judge the picture quality based on the photos.
> 
> What I want to show here is that the fine line details have been screwed up with the current/past Lumagen firmwares. But the Alpha release completely eliminated those artifacts and has no problem resolving the fine line details in the 4k60P contents!
> 
> View attachment 3239937
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3239938
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3239939
> 
> 
> 
> I also want to say that I saw some improvements for 16:9 contents downscaling on a 2.40 screen, and normal 4k24 in and out. They look cleaner than before. But these improvements are not nearly as obvious as the improvements on 4k60P contents, and I do not have solid evidence to show that (like the pictures above). So I will leave this part to other testers.
> 
> Congratulations to Jim and Patrick and every Lumagen owner for such a great improvement!


Awesome that this is finally being fixed, it's been pretty bad to harm 60Hz content this way. I would expect minimum to be to match the without situation


----------



## Kris Deering

esdwa said:


> As EE for a living and designer of couple FPGA-based custom video adapters for various gaming platforms, I can tell you that in general TV sets are more forgiving when it comes to video signal quality vs. video processors, grabbers or recorders. This was an universal truth in analog video signal era, might also apply to digital video signals used today.
> 
> It all depends on how video interlacing circuit is designed in tv... and how in processor. What design tolerances has been used for clock and data lines and whether interface logic can handle these.
> Also in general TV set requires less information in the video signal to properly display picture versus typical processor or recorder that uses all the data in the stream. And if it finds some data to be incorrect or corrupt it may cause entire packet frame to be ignored that's causing the problem on the screen.
> 
> I remember back in the early 2000 I designed one video adapter and it was working great when coupled with any CRT monitor. The same adapter hook up too early LCD display was showing some picture issues. That's because lcd-tv had the smaller margin of tolerance on video timings and my design wasn't complete yet and it required some adjustments to get the picture right on both.
> 
> I'm not saying lumagen suffers some unfinished design issue, I'm just saying lumagen is a complex video processing device that require quality video signal to be fed in. It is a precision tool improve your video experience, for that it requires clean hdmi stream to be fed into.
> 
> It's nothing new in this field of industry.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


This reminds me of my experience with Anthem. I helped with some of the design and implementation of the video processor in the D2V when it first came out. This had a Gennum video processing solution. I remember talking with Anthem's engineers a few times over the course of the year after its release and them talking about how they will NEVER do a video processor again. Their main complaint was that they adhered as perfectly as they could to the HDMI "standard" but were constantly having compatibility issues with input sources. Of course end users would always blame them saying that it worked fine going into the display directly, but not through the Anthem. Anthem ended up having to dedicate a massive amount of their manpower and engineering into building in cheats for all the components they had issues with and in their testing would find that the vast majority of those sources didn't even come close to meeting the HDMI spec but that displays were a lot less finicky about it (for reasons you already mentioned). As you can see from their product line, they have never offered any kind of processing since and simply pass the signal thru with a simple OSD overlay. 

There are definitely some issues with displays that have a Lumagen before them due to the edge rate of the Lumagen output. This is not dictated by Lumagen, it is just a factor of the HDMI chipset they use and they have ZERO control over that. One may say, why not use a different chipset, but it is definitely NOT that simple if you know how the HDMI market works. Most chip manufacturers won't even consider you for their products unless you are buying in EXTREME quantities, which the Denon/Sony/Samungs of the world do as they are spread out over a huge amount of products. But a video processor company is the niche of the niche and is not working on that scale at all. Lumagen has put together recommendations that help manage that edge rate with specific cables and lengths that help mitigate the issue. But displays are not always going to be identical in how they handle this (even in the same model) so you occasionally get one that is pickier. The Sony's are a great example as they have issues not only with bandwidth but also with HDCP timing. We also see people talking a lot about audio drops but others with the exact same configuration get absolutely none (we also see people with the same equipment but without a Lumagen reporting similar issues). ANYONE that has ever worked with HDMI knows it is a cluster$&$# of epic proportions when it comes to implementation and standards.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> This reminds me of my experience with Anthem. I helped with some of the design and implementation of the video processor in the D2V when it first came out. This had a Gennum video processing solution. I remember talking with Anthem's engineers a few times over the course of the year after its release and them talking about how they will NEVER do a video processor again. Their main complaint was that they adhered as perfectly as they could to the HDMI "standard" but were constantly having compatibility issues with input sources. Of course end users would always blame them saying that it worked fine going into the display directly, but not through the Anthem. Anthem ended up having to dedicate a massive amount of their manpower and engineering into building in cheats for all the components they had issues with and in their testing would find that the vast majority of those sources didn't even come close to meeting the HDMI spec but that displays were a lot less finicky about it (for reasons you already mentioned). As you can see from their product line, they have never offered any kind of processing since and simply pass the signal thru with a simple OSD overlay.
> 
> There are definitely some issues with displays that have a Lumagen before them due to the edge rate of the Lumagen output. This is not dictated by Lumagen, it is just a factor of the HDMI chipset they use and they have ZERO control over that. One may say, why not use a different chipset, but it is definitely NOT that simple if you know how the HDMI market works. Most chip manufacturers won't even consider you for their products unless you are buying in EXTREME quantities, which the Denon/Sony/Samungs of the world do as they are spread out over a huge amount of products. But a video processor company is the niche of the niche and is not working on that scale at all. Lumagen has put together recommendations that help manage that edge rate with specific cables and lengths that help mitigate the issue. But displays are not always going to be identical in how they handle this (even in the same model) so you occasionally get one that is pickier. The Sony's are a great example as they have issues not only with bandwidth but also with HDCP timing. We also see people talking a lot about audio drops but others with the exact same configuration get absolutely none (we also see people with the same equipment but without a Lumagen reporting similar issues). ANYONE that has ever worked with HDMI knows it is a cluster$&$# of epic proportions when it comes to implementation and standards.


Kris, we collectively elect YOU to solve and replace the HDMI calamity for the entirety of the AV industry.

Ready, set.....GO!!!!


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> Kris, we collectively elect YOU to solve and replace the HDMI calamity for the entirety of the AV industry.
> 
> Ready, set.....GO!!!!


I wish. I would love to see them move away from HDMI and go elsewhere (Cat5, DisplayPort). Especially with how they handle audio, which is a joke. CE have always had issues and compromises and ultimately a lot of them are just because they picked things based on cost and convenience (and likely lobbying) and the end user definitely suffers the consequences.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Not sure if this has anything to do with your dropout issue, but here is a result I found with our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude16:
> 
> About a month ago Trinnov updated my Altitude firmware to the latest public release, since I was way behind on updates. Prior to the update I would get a rare audio drop on DTS HD (which is a reported issue with the Altitude), but I did not have any ATMOS drop-outs. After the update I started to get an occasional dropout for ATMOS content. I did reseat all cables as this often fixes audio dropouts, but this did not help.
> 
> What resolved the ATMOS dropouts was that I turned off the audio up-sampler in the Trinnov. Since I went into the Trinnov setup menu and disabled the up-sampler just over two weeks ago (so I do not need to manually turn it off every time) I have not had any ATMOS dropouts. I have been trying to watch a lot of ATMOS content to be sure (often two movies a night - I know rough life) to make sure. So far using native for audio format has eliminated ATMOS drop-outs in the Lumagen Demo Theater. If you have audio up-sample enabled in the Trinnov I suggest trying with it set to native.


Although my audio drops are fairly rare, I have tried this and it seems to work. I’ve been using Auto for the listening format on my Trinnov Alt32. On the last several Dolby Atmos movies, I’ve switched to Native. According to the Alt32 manual, there really is no difference between Auto and Native for Dolby Atmos sources. Makes me wonder if Auto on the Trinnov is continually analyzing the signal and somehow thinks something changed (from the Lumagen) resulting in it re-analyzing the signal (again) which then causes the audio drop. Maybe all the changes folks have been making (using a different output with video, new cables, changing 5348 voltages, etc.) is just minimizing the Trinnov from doing this. 🤔 But, just guessing! Will do some more testing, but this does seem to help…


----------



## gerard1meehan

gerard1meehan said:


> Question for those using the Radiance Pro and a Sony 5000ES projector.
> 
> What is the the highest Color space you can send to your projector at 4k60p? The info on their web page I find confusing. Either way I only achieve 420 @ 4k60p. I had my Lumagen set to output 4k60p at 4k30P and I could achieve color space 422. I found that picture better than the 4k60P 420.
> 
> I was wondering if people with the same/ similar setup had different results. Wondering if that's it's max or do I need to address something in the chain
> 
> Thanks!


OK, so the VERY expensive HDMI cable in celling is the issue. Used another cable between the projector and Lumagen. and 4k60p 444


----------



## Geof

esdwa said:


> As EE for a living and designer of couple FPGA-based custom video adapters for various gaming platforms, I can tell you that in general TV sets are more forgiving when it comes to video signal quality vs. video processors, grabbers or recorders. This was an universal truth in analog video signal era, might also apply to digital video signals used today.
> 
> It all depends on how video interlacing circuit is designed in tv... and how in processor. What design tolerances has been used for clock and data lines and whether interface logic can handle these.
> Also in general TV set requires less information in the video signal to properly display picture versus typical processor or recorder that uses all the data in the stream. And if it finds some data to be incorrect or corrupt it may cause entire packet frame to be ignored that's causing the problem on the screen.
> 
> I remember back in the early 2000 I designed one video adapter and it was working great when coupled with any CRT monitor. The same adapter hook up too early LCD display was showing some picture issues. That's because lcd-tv had the smaller margin of tolerance on video timings and my design wasn't complete yet and it required some adjustments to get the picture right on both.
> 
> I'm not saying lumagen suffers some unfinished design issue, I'm just saying lumagen is a complex video processing device that require quality video signal to be fed in. It is a precision tool improve your video experience, for that it requires clean hdmi stream to be fed into.
> 
> It's nothing new in this field of industry.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Retired EE here..,..you said it well...


----------



## blake

I am really excited with the improved Lumagen output on the 4k/60 pipeline with the alpha firmware. 

At least in regards to steaming sources, would it be better to keep the ATV 4k (2021) locked to output 60fps, as opposed to match frame rate, to take advantage of the better video quality at 4k60 ? 

In other words, would it be better to convert 24 fps content to 60 fps if using this new Lumagen firmware ?


----------



## bobof

blake said:


> I am really excited with the improved Lumagen output on the 4k/60 pipeline with the alpha firmware.
> 
> At least in regards to steaming sources, would it be better to keep the ATV 4k (2021) locked to output 60fps, as opposed to match frame rate, to take advantage of the better video quality at 4k60 ?
> 
> In other words, would it be better to convert 24 fps content to 60 fps if using this new Lumagen firmware ?


I don't think that makes sense unless part of your system design to minimize black screens on rate changes.

The changes to 4k50/60 are as I understand predominantly to bring it to where 4k24 was, it was actually a bit deficient (though not many seemed to notice, I guess just because not much 4k60 watched). I think in the process there is some overall improvement that may also improve 24p and 4k60 further.

It's not that 4k60 is somehow required to get best possible video quality.


----------



## OzHDHT

blake said:


> At least in regards to steaming sources, would it be better to keep the ATV 4k (2021) locked to output 60fps, as opposed to match frame rate, to take advantage of the better video quality at 4k60 ?
> 
> In other words, would it be better to convert 24 fps content to 60 fps if using this new Lumagen firmware ?


No you don't want to turn off match frame rate It's never better to convert native 24p to anything else or vice versa.

Feed the new firmware the appropriate frame rate content to enjoy it's benefits.


----------



## esdwa

gerard1meehan said:


> OK, so the VERY expensive HDMI cable in celling is the issue. Used another cable between the projector and Lumagen. and 4k60p 444


Another proof very expensive cables are myth. I run 50 and 100ft fibers like these, works perfect, never had a single problem with my new 4K ht.









Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## crtone

jrp said:


> Without the anamorphic lens, when you increase the output to 4096 wide you get a 13.8% increase in light (((4096/3840)^2)=1.137778). Panamorph includes this increase in their light output marketing numbers. You do not need a lens to run the Radiance Pro output at 4096 wide and gain (roughly) 13.8% light output, assuming you have a projector that uses a 4096 wide chip.
> 
> Using 4096 versus 3840 out, increases how many pixels vertically are need for a given aspect ratio screen. For example, if you have the image width and height correct for 3840 output width, and change the output to 4096 wide, the image is too wide. So you use the projector lens zoom to make the picture width smaller. This in turn makes the height smaller. Then to make the image fill the height you have to reduce the output top and/or bottom shrink. So the vertical Shrink will be less for 4096 wide output versus 3840.
> 
> Vertical lens shift increases the height to width ratio. This is like pointing a flashlight perpendicular to the screen, then angling it down. The circle of light becomes an ellipse. Because of this, vertical-lens-shift affects the “output shrink” values needed. Lens-shift will also reduce the light output.
> 
> The Shrink feature reduces the area of the projector raster used for the active image. So IMO “Shrink” is a good name for this feature.


Jim,

I am a little confused. Is this possible on a 16:9 screen (i.e. to reduce the "shrink" one would need a negative value) ?

Please advise.


----------



## Kris Deering

crtone said:


> Jim,
> 
> I am a little confused. Is this possible on a 16:9 screen (i.e. to reduce the "shrink" one would need a negative value) ?
> 
> Please advise.


Yes it can be done on a 16x9 screen but I am not sure it would be worth the hassle for the small uptick in light output.


----------



## Kris Deering

Kris Deering said:


> Hey Everyone. Just wanted to give an update on the Lumagen/JVC NZ situation with the occasion "glitch" frame that pops up. As you know, Lumagen is hosting earlier firmware from JVC that prevents the issue. JVC has a Radiance Pro now (JVC USA at the moment) and are looking into it. One thing we've found out from that testing is that a 9Ghz output card does not have the issue, which means this points to a sensitivity issue on the JVC side to edge rate. In this last week I have done two different tests that have (so far) eliminated the problem as well. The first is a bit expensive, but I put the HD Fury Dr HDMI 8K in line with the output of the Lumagen to the projector. This eliminated the glitch completely in at least 4-5 hours of testing. Next I tried a HDMI splitter that was recommended by Markmon for some other issues he was having. This is a $30 box which when installed acts as a pass through if you want it to with non interaction required. This eliminated the issue with about 2-3 hours of testing so far. So these are options that may work for some that do not want to revert the firmware until a solution is found by JVC (which could be awhile).
> 
> For those interested, you can find the inexpensive splitter HERE
> 
> For that I just ran a 3-meter HDMI cable from the output of the Lumagen to the splitter and then the normal cable you use to the projector from there.


Just wanted to give an update on this. I have two clients that installed the inexpensive splitter. Both have gotten glitches with the splitter in place now. One says it has happened a few times, the other said it happened twice in the last week. 

I finally got some glitching last night (I am using the Dr HDMI device). This is after almost two weeks of using it with content playing daily. Happened three times during some content I was watching from AppleTV via Netflix. But then we watched some content from another streaming app for almost two hours and didn't have a single one. 

Given the extreme randomness of this issue and how for some it happens a lot and for others it barely happens at all, I do have a leery feeling about JVC being about to reproduce it enough to troubleshoot/fix it. I am trying to come up with a way to make it happen more often so they have better information to work with.


----------



## Nima

Thanks Kris for the update, I also still have random glitches but they happen every day. I have now ordered a 5m cable to see if the extra attenuation might solve it. 

Can JVC not offer us a mode in a future firmware that behaves like 0.61 for HDMI input?


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> Thanks Kris for the update, I also still have random glitches but they happen every day. I have now ordered a 5m cable to see if the extra attenuation might solve it.
> 
> Can JVC not offer us a mode in a future firmware that behaves like 0.61 for HDMI input?


Don't waste time changing cables, it won't change anything. 

I have no idea what JVC will or won't do for this. They want to resolve the issue and JVC USA has a Lumagen that will makes it way to Japan. I have no idea what the time table will be and if/when they will get a fix.


----------



## Geof

Kris Deering said:


> Don't waste time changing cables, it won't change anything.
> 
> I have no idea what JVC will or won't do for this. They want to resolve the issue and JVC USA has a Lumagen that will makes it way to Japan. I have no idea what the time table will be and if/when they will get a fix.


What is the latest on it with the 9GHz output? Does throttling the 18 Ghz output to 9 Ghz have any effect?

Also wondering out loud what we'll do if JVC does not/cannot fix it...?????


----------



## Nima

Geof said:


> What is the latest on it with the 9GHz output? Does throttling the 18 Ghz output to 9 Ghz have any effect?


I have full 9Ghz input and output and still experience the glitches.


----------



## Kris Deering

Geof said:


> What is the latest on it with the 9GHz output? Does throttling the 18 Ghz output to 9 Ghz have any effect?
> 
> Also wondering out loud what we'll do if JVC does not/cannot fix it...?????


It already works fine with the .6 firmware, so that would likely be the "worse" case scenario.


----------



## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> Although my audio drops are fairly rare, I have tried this and it seems to work. I’ve been using Auto for the listening format on my Trinnov Alt32. On the last several Dolby Atmos movies, I’ve switched to Native. According to the Alt32 manual, there really is no difference between Auto and Native for Dolby Atmos sources. Makes me wonder if Auto on the Trinnov is continually analyzing the signal and somehow thinks something changed (from the Lumagen) resulting in it re-analyzing the signal (again) which then causes the audio drop. Maybe all the changes folks have been making (using a different output with video, new cables, changing 5348 voltages, etc.) is just minimizing the Trinnov from doing this. 🤔 But, just guessing! Will do some more testing, but this does seem to help…


What is your actual source for the Dolby Atmos (disc and player, or files on disk drives playing through, say a Zappiti or other player)? 

I do know in my case, when trying to play the rare DD+ ripped films from my Zappiti into my Trinnov A16 it won't play and I notice flickering in the Trinnov window as if, as you suggest, it is analyzing and unable to come to any conclusion on how to deal with what it is receiving. I received a recommendation to establish 2 inputs for the one physical connection for the Zappiti. One called Auto and the other Force Bitstream. Now when I play any bitstream specific source material, including DD+ and have pointed to the Force Bitstream input all work fine, except, of course PCM or anything ancient that I have in my library. Then I simply switch to the Auto input which handles these without error. Interestingly enough (not clear why) when in the Auto mode it will successfully play Dolby Digital sources. This may all have more to do with the fact that my configured setup only has capacity for a 5.1 output which DD can support but not more advanced Atmos. However I would have expected the Trinnov to "find its way" to handling the situation.

As for using Native versus Auto in the Listening Format, maybe you can help clarify how that plays out. I'm quite new to the Trinnov, as you can tell.


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> As for using Native versus Auto in the Listening Format, maybe you can help clarify how that plays out. I'm quite new to the Trinnov, as you can tell


Native won’t upmix if using more than 5.1 (so in your instance shouldn’t make any difference), it basically sends out the same channel count as it’s receiving- 5.1 in, 5.1 out. Auto, will upmix to all available channels in all codecs excepts Atmos - atmos doesn’t require any form of upmixing.

If your only running a 5.1 setup, you may as well leave it in native (unless listening to 2.0 channel stuff I suppose).

I haven’t noticed any issues with the new firmware using upmix on native like I have always done - my setup is 9.5.6.

I believe you’re using the new Zappiti, as am I am, I’ve been fighting audio drops for the past year or so, using the Zappiti audio output solved the issue, but without cursing things, I recently bought a Dr HDMI after reading @Kris Deering post ref the JVC glitching. I’ve now gone 10 hours without any form of dropout using the lumagen audio output. I’ve achieved this sort of time period once or twice before so I’m not counting my chickens just yet, but if I can get another 4-5 films without one, it may have solved it.


----------



## jrp

*Video Evaluation for Videophiles*

There has been much activity for comparison of late. However, the focus on screen captures is not the way consumers should evaluate video for their home cinema. Real world factors and human visual acuity at viewing distance are being ignored, when in fact they are the most important considerations.

As a video engineer I evaluate screen captures and test patterns like zone-plates. This is so I can make design tradeoffs. However, I know that if I over-optimize zone-plates I will make real-world video look worse. This is due to needing longer filters that cause more ringing in real-world images. My final analysis is _always_ at viewing distance using a quality projector. This is the only way to make sure that real-world effects are included in the evaluation.

If you are considering a home cinema purchase you need to do your evaluation in a home cinema with the characteristics you plan for in your home cinema, or better yet in your home cinema if you are considering a video processor. The final analysis must be at viewing distance. This is the _only_ way to include real life factors such as projector lens effects (softening, focus) on the image, electrical noise and how it affects the image background noise, and how HDMI Bit Error Rate (BER) affects the image for your projector of choice.

You need to evaluate the image at viewing distance. If you cannot see something at viewing distance, it is moot. For 4k projectors and content, Luma resolution is below human visual acuity at viewing distance (I use 1X screen width). What many do not understand is that for Chroma resolution, human visual acuity is about 1/9th that of Luma. Consumer video source has ¼ resolution for Chroma. This is more resolution than humans can see at 4k at viewing distance. As this implies, optimizing Chroma beyond 4:2:2 is a waste of resources for consumer video since no human can see the improvement at viewing distance.

Here is a test question:

For your home cinema, what should products optimize:

Test Patterns
Computers outputting a spreadsheet
Still pictures
Consumer video and/or gaming
Okay, that is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek question. I certainly mean no offense by this question, but it does put into focus what is important for consumers.

No one watches test patterns. Leave them to the video designers.

If you are using your computer to drive your projector as your daily-driver computer, then the second option is reasonable. This application, unlike consumer video, can benefit from a 4:4:4 video pipeline if you are sitting close enough to the screen. I do not think this is a common choice and the optimizations are different than for video.

So, what about still pictures, and evaluating them using screen captures? Not a good choice for consumer video. If you are a photographer and using your theater for photography, then of course this is a good choice.

Video has a lot more compression to deal with than high resolution photos. Evaluating high resolution still pictures will not tell you how video is going to look. Engineers optimizing for still pictures will not give you the best optimization for video. One example is sharpening. High resolution still pictures need less enhancement than highly compressed consumer video. Often an enhancement might be too much for a still photo viewing close to your screen, but great for consumer motion video in a projection environment at viewing distance.

So, the fourth option is the answer of course. No one is surprised. So, why are people showing test patterns and still photo, screen captures for consumer video evaluation? Such information is useful for video engineers if they understand how lens effects, and viewing distance, affect the results.

As an end user, you need to evaluate motion video to choose products for your home cinema and you need to do so at viewing distance. I realize this is harder to do and takes more experience, but it is after all a home cinema where you want the best video experience watching content from your theater seat.

So, what if I think I see something at viewing distance, should I move closer to the screen to verify what I am seeing? Of course. I certainly do.

I could add more, but here is the conclusion for consumer video evaluation:

Evaluate in a home cinema environment.
Use the same projector you plan to use
Use the same screen you plan to use
Make sure the image is calibrated or close enough to have low dE’s
Evaluate at viewing distance (I recommend 1X screen width for 4k)
Use real world video
Lumagen always optimizes for video in a cinema environment, such as the Lumagen Demo Theater with our JVC RS4500 projector, and our Stewart Studiotek 130 14-foot diagonal 2.40 screen at 1X screen width. This is, for the most part, how I evaluated the new pipeline enhancement Alpha release.

By observing the above design criteria, Lumagen has won every unbiased comparison in a real-world environment by a significant margin. These are mostly private comparisons clients have called/emailed to discuss with me. The most public comparison was a single-blind study with five videophiles who had no pre-bias about the products run by Woofer about a year ago. The result was all five panelists (and Woofer) “overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro video quality.”

Another test is using the Tektronix video analysis hardware. This piece of kit has been in development for almost 30 years. It takes the original video (in this case pristine 4k video), uses advanced offline techniques to down-scale it (in this case to 1080). Then it compares the upscaled image through the device under test to the original using human factors based algorithms that are based on what is important for the human vision system. For this test, the Radiance Pro scored over 5, and the competition scored 4.2. While not a viewing distance as a test, this does take into account how the human vision system actually works.

We appreciate the feedback from people posting screen captures give us. Screen captures are a good way for Patrick and me to refine our algorithms. However, too much emphasis is being placed on these for consumer video evaluation. What matters is what you see in your home cinema at viewing distance.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> *Video Evaluation for Videophiles*
> 
> There has been much activity for comparison of late. However, the focus on screen captures is not the way consumers should evaluate video for their home cinema. Real world factors and human visual acuity at viewing distance are being ignored, when in fact they are the most important considerations.
> 
> As a video engineer I evaluate screen captures and test patterns like zone-plates. This is so I can make design tradeoffs. However, I know that if I over-optimize zone-plates I will make real-world video look worse. This is due to needing longer filters that cause more ringing in real-world images. My final analysis is _always_ at viewing distance using a quality projector. This is the only way to make sure that real-world effects are included in the evaluation.
> 
> If you are considering a home cinema purchase you need to do your evaluation in a home cinema with the characteristics you plan for in your home cinema, or better yet in your home cinema if you are considering a video processor. The final analysis must be at viewing distance. This is the _only_ way to include real life factors such as projector lens effects (softening, focus) on the image, electrical noise and how it affects the image background noise, and how HDMI Bit Error Rate (BER) affects the image for your projector of choice.
> 
> You need to evaluate the image at viewing distance. If you cannot see something at viewing distance, it is moot. For 4k projectors and content, Luma resolution is below human visual acuity at viewing distance (I use 1X screen width). What many do not understand is that for Chroma resolution, human visual acuity is about 1/9th that of Luma. Consumer video source has ¼ resolution for Chroma. This is more resolution than humans can see at 4k at viewing distance. As this implies, optimizing Chroma beyond 4:2:2 is a waste of resources for consumer video since no human can see the improvement at viewing distance.
> 
> Here is a test question:
> 
> For your home cinema, what should products optimize:
> 
> Test Patterns
> Computers outputting a spreadsheet
> Still pictures
> Consumer video and/or gaming
> Okay, that is a bit of a tong-in-cheek question. I certainly mean no offense by this question, but it does put into focus what is important for consumers.
> 
> No one watches test patterns. Leave them to the video designers.
> 
> If you are using your computer to drive your projector as your daily-driver computer, then the second option is reasonable. This application, unlike consumer video, can benefit from a 4:4:4 video pipeline if you are sitting close enough to the screen. I do not think this is a common choice and the optimizations are different than for video.
> 
> So, what about still pictures, and evaluating them using screen captures? Not a good choice for consumer video. If you are a photographer and using your theater for photography, then of course this is a good choice.
> 
> Video has a lot more compression to deal with than high resolution photos. Evaluating high resolution still pictures will not tell you how video is going to look. Engineers optimizing for still pictures will not give you the best optimization for video. One example is sharpening. High resolution still pictures need less enhancement than highly compressed consumer video. Often an enhancement might be too much for a still photo viewing close to your screen, but great for consumer motion video in a projection environment at viewing distance.
> 
> So, the fourth option is the answer of course. No one is surprised. So, why are people showing test patterns and still photo, screen captures for consumer video evaluation? Such information is useful for video engineers if they understand how lens effects, and viewing distance, affect the results.
> 
> As an end user, you need to evaluate motion video to choose products for your Home cinema and you need to do so at viewing distance. I realize this is harder to do and takes more experience, but it is after all a home cinema where you want the best video experience watching content from your theater seat.
> 
> So, what if I think I see something at viewing distance, should I move closer to the screen to verify what I am seeing? Of course. I certainly do.
> 
> I could add more, but here is the conclusion for consumer video evaluation:
> 
> Evaluate in a home cinema environment.
> Use the same projector you plan to use
> Use the same screen you plan to use
> Make sure the image is calibrated or close enough to have low dE’s
> Evaluate at viewing distance (I recommend 1X screen width for 4k)
> Use real world video
> Lumagen always optimizes for video in a cinema environment, such as the Lumagen Demo Theater with our JVC RS4500 projector, and our Stewart Studiotek 130 14-foot diagonal 2.40 screen at 1X screen width. This is, for the most part, how I evaluated the new pipeline enhancement Alpha release.
> 
> By observing the above design criteria, Lumagen has won every unbiased comparison in a real-world environment by a significant margin. These are mostly private comparisons clients have called/emailed to discuss with me. The most public comparison was a single-blind study with five videophiles who had no pre-bias about the products run by Woofer about a year ago. The result was all five panelists (and Woofer) “overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro video quality.”
> 
> Another test is using the Tektronix video analysis hardware. This piece of kit has been in development for almost 30 years. It takes the original video (in this case pristine 4k video), uses advanced offline techniques to down-scale it (in this case to 1080). Then it compares the upscaled image through the device under test to the original using human factors based algorithms that are based on what is important for the human vision system. For this test, the Radiance Pro scored over 5, and the competition scored 4.2. While not a viewing distance as a test, this does take into account how the human vision system actually works.
> 
> We appreciate the feedback from people posting screen captures give us. Screen captures are a good way for Patrick and me to refine our algorithms. However, too much emphasis is being placed on these for consumer video evaluation. What matters is what you see in your home cinema at viewing distance.


Nice write up. Will you be posting this in the video analysis thread as well?


----------



## SJHT

sjschaff said:


> What is your actual source for the Dolby Atmos (disc and player, or files on disk drives playing through, say a Zappiti or other player)?
> 
> I do know in my case, when trying to play the rare DD+ ripped films from my Zappiti into my Trinnov A16 it won't play and I notice flickering in the Trinnov window as if, as you suggest, it is analyzing and unable to come to any conclusion on how to deal with what it is receiving. I received a recommendation to establish 2 inputs for the one physical connection for the Zappiti. One called Auto and the other Force Bitstream. Now when I play any bitstream specific source material, including DD+ and have pointed to the Force Bitstream input all work fine, except, of course PCM or anything ancient that I have in my library. Then I simply switch to the Auto input which handles these without error. Interestingly enough (not clear why) when in the Auto mode it will successfully play Dolby Digital sources. This may all have more to do with the fact that my configured setup only has capacity for a 5.1 output which DD can support but not more advanced Atmos. However I would have expected the Trinnov to "find its way" to handling the situation.
> 
> As for using Native versus Auto in the Listening Format, maybe you can help clarify how that plays out. I'm quite new to the Trinnov, as you can tell.


Source is a Kaleidescape Strato. Audio drops are rare for me, but do occasionally happen. Last time I had an audio drop I was using Listening mode on Auto. I also think it was during a scene change. Switching to native seems to have fixed any dropouts at least for the last several movies I have tried it. Makes me wonder if the Lumagen HDMI signal is somehow different than just sending direct from the source. Hmmm. Guess there is DTM, etc. but that shouldn’t impact the audio portion. I did send a note to Trinnov support to see what they think. It just seems like something in the signal is triggering it to re-analyze. But, no expert here….


----------



## Karl Maga

fatherom said:


> Nice write up. Will you be posting this in the video analysis thread as well?


I wouldn't. Can you imagine the reaction?


----------



## fatherom

Karl Maga said:


> I wouldn't. Can you imagine the reaction?


Well since that’s where all the comparisons are taking place, it makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> Native won’t upmix if using more than 5.1 (so in your instance shouldn’t make any difference), it basically sends out the same channel count as it’s receiving- 5.1 in, 5.1 out. Auto, will upmix to all available channels in all codecs excepts Atmos - atmos doesn’t require any form of upmixing.
> 
> If your only running a 5.1 setup, you may as well leave it in native (unless listening to 2.0 channel stuff I suppose).
> 
> I haven’t noticed any issues with the new firmware using upmix on native like I have always done - my setup is 9.5.6.
> 
> I believe you’re using the new Zappiti, as am I am, I’ve been fighting audio drops for the past year or so, using the Zappiti audio output solved the issue, but without cursing things, I recently bought a Dr HDMI after reading @Kris Deering post ref the JVC glitching. I’ve now gone 10 hours without any form of dropout using the lumagen audio output. I’ve achieved this sort of time period once or twice before so I’m not counting my chickens just yet, but if I can get another 4-5 films without one, it may have solved it.


Thanks. Now I better understand what "Listening Format" is really all about. So, it would appear best, given my 5.1 configuration, to simply leave it at Auto. 

And for using Roon network I'm guessing it wouldn't seem I'd want to alter what I've currently set up as Auro3D.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Source is a Kaleidescape Strato. Audio drops are rare for me, but do occasionally happen. Last time I had an audio drop I was using Listening mode on Auto. I also think it was during a scene change. Switching to native seems to have fixed any dropouts at least for the last several movies I have tried it. Makes me wonder if the Lumagen HDMI signal is somehow different than just sending direct from the source. Hmmm. Guess there is DTM, etc. but that shouldn’t impact the audio portion. I did send a note to Trinnov support to see what they think. It just seems like something in the signal is triggering it to re-analyze. But, no expert here….


When Trinnov updated our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude to the latest public release I started to get drop outs with ATMOS. With the older release I did not.

I tried turning off the "upmix" and instead selected "native." This eliminated ATMOS dropouts. It has been over a month since I made this change. I was watching one or two ATMOS movies a night as a test. So I hope this is a complete fix. Something internal to the Altitude seems to not have enough resources for ATMOS and the upmix with the current public release.

The latest public release seems to have improved the internal Altitude issue with DTS-HD. Since I switched to "native" over a month ago I have had only one DTS-HD audio drop.

=== 

The Radiance Pro does not change the audio data in any way. It does re-clock audio to reduce the jitter common in many sources.


----------



## Chicagobear1

jrp said:


> *Video Evaluation for Videophiles*
> 
> There has been much activity for comparison of late. However, the focus on screen captures is not the way consumers should evaluate video for their home cinema. Real world factors and human visual acuity at viewing distance are being ignored, when in fact they are the most important considerations.
> 
> As a video engineer I evaluate screen captures and test patterns like zone-plates. This is so I can make design tradeoffs. However, I know that if I over-optimize zone-plates I will make real-world video look worse. This is due to needing longer filters that cause more ringing in real-world images. My final analysis is _always_ at viewing distance using a quality projector. This is the only way to make sure that real-world effects are included in the evaluation.
> 
> If you are considering a home cinema purchase you need to do your evaluation in a home cinema with the characteristics you plan for in your home cinema, or better yet in your home cinema if you are considering a video processor. The final analysis must be at viewing distance. This is the _only_ way to include real life factors such as projector lens effects (softening, focus) on the image, electrical noise and how it affects the image background noise, and how HDMI Bit Error Rate (BER) affects the image for your projector of choice.
> 
> You need to evaluate the image at viewing distance. If you cannot see something at viewing distance, it is moot. For 4k projectors and content, Luma resolution is below human visual acuity at viewing distance (I use 1X screen width). What many do not understand is that for Chroma resolution, human visual acuity is about 1/9th that of Luma. Consumer video source has ¼ resolution for Chroma. This is more resolution than humans can see at 4k at viewing distance. As this implies, optimizing Chroma beyond 4:2:2 is a waste of resources for consumer video since no human can see the improvement at viewing distance.
> 
> Here is a test question:
> 
> For your home cinema, what should products optimize:
> 
> Test Patterns
> Computers outputting a spreadsheet
> Still pictures
> Consumer video and/or gaming
> Okay, that is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek question. I certainly mean no offense by this question, but it does put into focus what is important for consumers.
> 
> No one watches test patterns. Leave them to the video designers.
> 
> If you are using your computer to drive your projector as your daily-driver computer, then the second option is reasonable. This application, unlike consumer video, can benefit from a 4:4:4 video pipeline if you are sitting close enough to the screen. I do not think this is a common choice and the optimizations are different than for video.
> 
> So, what about still pictures, and evaluating them using screen captures? Not a good choice for consumer video. If you are a photographer and using your theater for photography, then of course this is a good choice.
> 
> Video has a lot more compression to deal with than high resolution photos. Evaluating high resolution still pictures will not tell you how video is going to look. Engineers optimizing for still pictures will not give you the best optimization for video. One example is sharpening. High resolution still pictures need less enhancement than highly compressed consumer video. Often an enhancement might be too much for a still photo viewing close to your screen, but great for consumer motion video in a projection environment at viewing distance.
> 
> So, the fourth option is the answer of course. No one is surprised. So, why are people showing test patterns and still photo, screen captures for consumer video evaluation? Such information is useful for video engineers if they understand how lens effects, and viewing distance, affect the results.
> 
> As an end user, you need to evaluate motion video to choose products for your home cinema and you need to do so at viewing distance. I realize this is harder to do and takes more experience, but it is after all a home cinema where you want the best video experience watching content from your theater seat.
> 
> So, what if I think I see something at viewing distance, should I move closer to the screen to verify what I am seeing? Of course. I certainly do.
> 
> I could add more, but here is the conclusion for consumer video evaluation:
> 
> Evaluate in a home cinema environment.
> Use the same projector you plan to use
> Use the same screen you plan to use
> Make sure the image is calibrated or close enough to have low dE’s
> Evaluate at viewing distance (I recommend 1X screen width for 4k)
> Use real world video
> Lumagen always optimizes for video in a cinema environment, such as the Lumagen Demo Theater with our JVC RS4500 projector, and our Stewart Studiotek 130 14-foot diagonal 2.40 screen at 1X screen width. This is, for the most part, how I evaluated the new pipeline enhancement Alpha release.
> 
> By observing the above design criteria, Lumagen has won every unbiased comparison in a real-world environment by a significant margin. These are mostly private comparisons clients have called/emailed to discuss with me. The most public comparison was a single-blind study with five videophiles who had no pre-bias about the products run by Woofer about a year ago. The result was all five panelists (and Woofer) “overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro video quality.”
> 
> Another test is using the Tektronix video analysis hardware. This piece of kit has been in development for almost 30 years. It takes the original video (in this case pristine 4k video), uses advanced offline techniques to down-scale it (in this case to 1080). Then it compares the upscaled image through the device under test to the original using human factors based algorithms that are based on what is important for the human vision system. For this test, the Radiance Pro scored over 5, and the competition scored 4.2. While not a viewing distance as a test, this does take into account how the human vision system actually works.
> 
> We appreciate the feedback from people posting screen captures give us. Screen captures are a good way for Patrick and me to refine our algorithms. However, too much emphasis is being placed on these for consumer video evaluation. What matters is what you see in your home cinema at viewing distance.


This makes total sense Jim when Jockychan and i did the comparison with the processor's there was know way we could capture what we analysed even with recorded video to show the public. We thought about It. If it could be done we would need incredible video capturing video camera equipment. We couldn't do it this would be to difficult to show everyone what we witnessed. Our viewing environment would be different from everyone else. I think the only way this can be done achieved is being in the actual home cinema involvement where the comparison is actually happening IMO .


----------



## jrp

Karl Maga said:


> I wouldn't. Can you imagine the reaction?


Karl:

Well said.

People who want to read posts from someone who has been designing video electronics for over 40 years (ouch, am I that old), can read them here.

Early in my career I had the honor to work with a PhD "perception physicist" and know another. They helped me understand the importance of human factors over just looking at the raw math. This has been a founding principle for Lumagen for the past 20 years.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> People who want to read posts from someone who has been designing video electronics for over 40 years (ouch, am I that old), can read them here.


However, this thread is mostly filled with followers and people who already know how amazing lumagen is (myself included). 

We shouldn’t be afraid to evangelize the merits of lumagen outside of the “walled garden” of this thread. It’s the video processors thread where the comparisons are happening; in the absence of alternate viewpoints, they may draw erroneous conclusions which will hurt new prospects who are considering a lumagen.


----------



## Geof

Nima said:


> I have full 9Ghz input and output and still experience the glitches.


Thanks for the update...I thought that was the case but wanted to verify.


----------



## Javs

Its rather disappointing to read that wall of text which is essentially trying to invalidate what I am doing because you dont like the results so far, and is actually also implying I am not a true videophile because of my methodology. 

Truth is I am barely getting started here there is a lot to look at, and I have a whole lot of time to do it, I plan on doing it all again when the new FW is completely done. My mind is still 'open' by the way, I am not here to try and disparage the product at all! Why would I even bother with it if that was my goal, I am not a sadist. 

I work in the film industry myself, I spent the better part of the last 15 years looking at films as part of my job sitting next to directors while doing it, talking about all the aspects, analysing camera tests before shoots to choose the camera we would use for that project, we had to also reference films to give briefs to cinematographers, storyboard artists, cinematographers, studio heads etc on what we wanted to achieve with what we were going to go out and shoot, this required us to recognise and reference elements like shutter speeds used in certain scenes, lenses which give a particular look, cameras such as red vs arri and their inherent motion differences and grain structures etc so I am not some random dude either. This is my methodology and It would have been nice if you embraced it and not feel threatened by it.

By the way when I analayse content, it ends up currently going through 3 different displays, I start at my desk which is a 55" Panasonic OLED and my eyes are roughly 1 screen width away, that has perfect MTF, there is no lens to degrade the image, its just perfect. You said yourself that you should be at viewing distance, so doesnt that pass the mustard as far as being far enough back? Then I will use my projector, i have two currently one is a 1080p DLP, which is why I have great interest in testing your downscaling, and the other is my JVC X9500 which is a golden sample. So right now, 4K, 1080p and 4k Eshift is what I test, it has to pass through all those displays. But some of the time certain settings wont even make it past my OLED.

I am not just sitting there with my nose on the screen watching test patterns day to day.


----------



## Geof

jrp said:


> Karl:
> 
> Well said.
> 
> People who want to read posts from someone who has been designing video electronics for over 40 years (ouch, am I that old), can read them here.
> 
> Early in my career I had the honor to work with a PhD "perception physicist" and know another. They helped me understand the importance of human factors over just looking at the raw math. This has been a founding principle for Lumagen for the past 20 years.


  Your posts are always informative and interesting to read!!!


----------



## Nima

Quick update 5m cable (same brand) did not solve the glitches either.

Any harm in keeping the 5m one? Should I go back to the 3m one? Does it matter?


----------



## Ilushka85

drewmanfu0 said:


> How have I not done troubleshooting? I have ordered 4 different fire TVs, about 9 different highly rated cables, a Roku, a Sony UHD player and finally with reluctance a $120 cable. Still have the same exact issue I started with. It's baloney that I "feel" like the issue is resolved to have it happen again the next day. I have tried all 4 inputs with the same results. I am done troubleshooting and want to rid my life of this thing that "cannot" be broken, only my setup is at fault. It's been said by others that have the same setup that are not experiencing issues so there is only ONE possibility. The 4242 is broken. Like I had said from the beginning but was refused service. I had done plenty of troubleshooting first before reaching out for help.



I will gladly buy your unit... mine works perfect and I can use another.


----------



## jrp

Javs:

Please reread my post. I am not in any way disparaging your efforts. You already found a bug in the Alpha release which we are thankful for.

I am trying to educate people on how to do video evaluation for their home theater. This does not negate your testing.


----------



## sjschaff

Javs said:


> Its rather disappointing to read that wall of text which is essentially trying to invalidate what I am doing because you dont like the results so far, and is actually also implying I am not a true videophile because of my methodology.
> 
> Truth is I am barely getting started here there is a lot to look at, and I have a whole lot of time to do it, I plan on doing it all again when the new FW is completely done. My mind is still 'open' by the way, I am not here to try and disparage the product at all! Why would I even bother with it if that was my goal, I am not a sadist.
> 
> I work in the film industry myself, I spent the better part of the last 15 years looking at films as part of my job sitting next to directors while doing it, talking about all the aspects, analysing camera tests before shoots to choose the camera we would use for that project, we had to also reference films to give briefs to cinematographers, storyboard artists, cinematographers, studio heads etc on what we wanted to achieve with what we were going to go out and shoot, this required us to recognise and reference elements like shutter speeds used in certain scenes, lenses which give a particular look, cameras such as red vs arri and their inherent motion differences and grain structures etc so I am not some random dude either. This is my methodology and It would have been nice if you embraced it and not feel threatened by it.
> 
> By the way when I analayse content, it ends up currently going through 3 different displays, I start at my desk which is a 55" Panasonic OLED and my eyes are roughly 1 screen width away, that has perfect MTF, there is no lens to degrade the image, its just perfect. You said yourself that you should be at viewing distance, so doesnt that pass the mustard as far as being far enough back? Then I will use my projector, i have two currently one is a 1080p DLP, which is why I have great interest in testing your downscaling, and the other is my JVC X9500 which is a golden sample. So right now, 4K, 1080p and 4k Eshift is what I test, it has to pass through all those displays. But some of the time certain settings wont even make it past my OLED.
> 
> I am not just sitting there with my nose on the screen watching test patterns day to day.


Truly appreciate your your background and methodology. And there are so many specialty areas in putting together a film that I'm particularly beholden to the people who know just how to use the tools to arrive at imparting their vision (e.g. Kubrick, et. al). I spent quite a few years in film school back in the 70's as an editor and cinematographer, working with a former Hollywood director. But I have found that I cannot apply much of what I learned then to the kinds of tech we use today, especially in home videography. And that came long after my skills with photography (B&W) would come up short in color processing and the darkroom, let alone digital mastery. Video has moved along from CRT to the myriad technologies we have today. 

And as a consumer I've long given up trying to keep up with how to properly calibrate my setup (I leave that to Kris, when he journey's to N. Cal.). My goal in video is much the same as it is with home audio - to get immersed in what the director is attempting to put across to an audience. Everything is at the service of story and character. If the technology intrudes, I'm outa' there as they say. Guess I'm happy when I no longer concern myself with the technology, though video artifacts still annoy me. I always have to catch myself in evaluating too much as I'm trying to enjoy what I'm seeing. It's often why I avoid bringing tech along (including any camera equipment) when I'm vacationing - it just gets in the way of the total experience. I've learned to focus and be immersed (multitasking is verboten).


----------



## Javs

...


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> When Trinnov updated our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude to the latest public release I started to get drop outs with ATMOS. With the older release I did not.
> 
> I tried turning off the "upmix" and instead selected "native." This eliminated ATMOS dropouts. It has been over a month since I made this change. I was watching one or two ATMOS movies a night as a test. So I hope this is a complete fix. Something internal to the Altitude seems to not have enough resources for ATMOS and the upmix with the current public release.
> 
> The latest public release seems to have improved the internal Altitude issue with DTS-HD. Since I switched to "native" over a month ago I have had only one DTS-HD audio drop.
> 
> ===
> 
> The Radiance Pro does not change the audio data in any way. It does re-clock audio to reduce the jitter common in many sources.


I don’t think it has to do with Altitude resources. Something seems to be triggering the Altitude to re-sync or re-analyze the audio signal. Based on feedback, this doesn’t happen when the Lumagen is bypassed. I will see what the support folks at Trinnov think. In my setup, there is absolutely no difference in the output between Auto and Native for Atmos. But, somehow Auto causes the rare audio drop and Native does not. If this holds up to be true, then maybe the root cause will be identified. Or maybe I’m missing something… SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> I don’t think it has to do with Altitude resources. Something seems to be triggering the Altitude to re-sync or re-analyze the audio signal. Based on feedback, this doesn’t happen when the Lumagen is bypassed. I will see what the support folks at Trinnov think. In my setup, there is absolutely no difference in the output between Auto and Native for Atmos. But, somehow Auto causes the rare audio drop and Native does not. If this holds up to be true, then maybe the root cause will be identified. Or maybe I’m missing something… SJ


I thought there was someone that commented on this very thing in the Trinnov thread saying it was happening to him and he didn't have a Lumagen.


----------



## Ilushka85

Kris Deering said:


> I thought there was someone that commented on this very thing in the Trinnov thread saying it was happening to him and he didn't have a Lumagen.


It’s happened to me and my lumagen is after my Trinnov … so there you have it


----------



## SJHT

Good to know! Honestly my drops are rare, but this seems to fix….


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Source is a Kaleidescape Strato. Audio drops are rare for me, but do occasionally happen. Last time I had an audio drop I was using Listening mode on Auto. I also think it was during a scene change. Switching to native seems to have fixed any dropouts at least for the last several movies I have tried it. Makes me wonder if the Lumagen HDMI signal is somehow different than just sending direct from the source. Hmmm. Guess there is DTM, etc. but that shouldn’t impact the audio portion. I did send a note to Trinnov support to see what they think. It just seems like something in the signal is triggering it to re-analyze. But, no expert here….


Someone on this thread said they have the Altitude _before_ the Radiance Pro. They were experiencing ATMOS dropouts. The dropouts went away when he changed from _upmix_ to _native_.

So to me it seems like a processing resource issue in the Altitude with the latest public release.

==== 

Just noticed llushka85 said it was his system.


----------



## sjschaff

jrp said:


> Someone on this thread said they have the Altitude _before_ the Radiance Pro. They were experiencing ATMOS dropouts. The dropouts went away when he changed from _upmix_ to _native_.
> 
> So to me it seems like a processing resource issue in the Altitude with the latest public release.
> 
> ====
> 
> Just noticed llushka85 said it was his system.


Wondering if this is specific to using the A32 vs. A16, of if the configuration needs to be 5.1.2/7.1.2/9.1.2 or 5.1.4/7.1.4 for the dropouts to occur. 

I have my Trinnov before the LRP but I only have a 5.1 speaker layout. I've had absolutely no dropouts with any DD, DD Plus, Dolby TrueHD, but I don't know how to identify source using DD Plus JOC. 

I will say that I'm using a Zappiti Neo as source and have had issues with DD+ with the Trinnov. But these seem to be specific to the Zappiti (and likely similar players running the same hardware and operating system). I'm using a workaround provided by Chuck Back of Trinnov.

If anyone can point to specific content I can test, to see if I get dropouts, that might help. However, my Trinnov setup, especially given the 5.1 speaker layout, may not exhibit the symptoms. I'm using Auto for nearly anything I can recall in my configuration.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> *Video Evaluation for Videophiles*
> 
> There has been much activity for comparison of late. However, the focus on screen captures is not the way consumers should evaluate video for their home cinema. Real world factors and human visual acuity at viewing distance are being ignored, when in fact they are the most important considerations.
> 
> As a video engineer I evaluate screen captures and test patterns like zone-plates. This is so I can make design tradeoffs. However, I know that if I over-optimize zone-plates I will make real-world video look worse. This is due to needing longer filters that cause more ringing in real-world images. My final analysis is _always_ at viewing distance using a quality projector. This is the only way to make sure that real-world effects are included in the evaluation.
> 
> If you are considering a home cinema purchase you need to do your evaluation in a home cinema with the characteristics you plan for in your home cinema, or better yet in your home cinema if you are considering a video processor. The final analysis must be at viewing distance. This is the _only_ way to include real life factors such as projector lens effects (softening, focus) on the image, electrical noise and how it affects the image background noise, and how HDMI Bit Error Rate (BER) affects the image for your projector of choice.
> 
> You need to evaluate the image at viewing distance. If you cannot see something at viewing distance, it is moot. For 4k projectors and content, Luma resolution is below human visual acuity at viewing distance (I use 1X screen width). What many do not understand is that for Chroma resolution, human visual acuity is about 1/9th that of Luma. Consumer video source has ¼ resolution for Chroma. This is more resolution than humans can see at 4k at viewing distance. As this implies, optimizing Chroma beyond 4:2:2 is a waste of resources for consumer video since no human can see the improvement at viewing distance.
> 
> Here is a test question:
> 
> For your home cinema, what should products optimize:
> 
> Test Patterns
> Computers outputting a spreadsheet
> Still pictures
> Consumer video and/or gaming
> Okay, that is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek question. I certainly mean no offense by this question, but it does put into focus what is important for consumers.
> 
> No one watches test patterns. Leave them to the video designers.
> 
> If you are using your computer to drive your projector as your daily-driver computer, then the second option is reasonable. This application, unlike consumer video, can benefit from a 4:4:4 video pipeline if you are sitting close enough to the screen. I do not think this is a common choice and the optimizations are different than for video.
> 
> So, what about still pictures, and evaluating them using screen captures? Not a good choice for consumer video. If you are a photographer and using your theater for photography, then of course this is a good choice.
> 
> Video has a lot more compression to deal with than high resolution photos. Evaluating high resolution still pictures will not tell you how video is going to look. Engineers optimizing for still pictures will not give you the best optimization for video. One example is sharpening. High resolution still pictures need less enhancement than highly compressed consumer video. Often an enhancement might be too much for a still photo viewing close to your screen, but great for consumer motion video in a projection environment at viewing distance.
> 
> So, the fourth option is the answer of course. No one is surprised. So, why are people showing test patterns and still photo, screen captures for consumer video evaluation? Such information is useful for video engineers if they understand how lens effects, and viewing distance, affect the results.
> 
> As an end user, you need to evaluate motion video to choose products for your home cinema and you need to do so at viewing distance. I realize this is harder to do and takes more experience, but it is after all a home cinema where you want the best video experience watching content from your theater seat.
> 
> So, what if I think I see something at viewing distance, should I move closer to the screen to verify what I am seeing? Of course. I certainly do.
> 
> I could add more, but here is the conclusion for consumer video evaluation:
> 
> Evaluate in a home cinema environment.
> Use the same projector you plan to use
> Use the same screen you plan to use
> Make sure the image is calibrated or close enough to have low dE’s
> Evaluate at viewing distance (I recommend 1X screen width for 4k)
> Use real world video
> Lumagen always optimizes for video in a cinema environment, such as the Lumagen Demo Theater with our JVC RS4500 projector, and our Stewart Studiotek 130 14-foot diagonal 2.40 screen at 1X screen width. This is, for the most part, how I evaluated the new pipeline enhancement Alpha release.
> 
> By observing the above design criteria, Lumagen has won every unbiased comparison in a real-world environment by a significant margin. These are mostly private comparisons clients have called/emailed to discuss with me. The most public comparison was a single-blind study with five videophiles who had no pre-bias about the products run by Woofer about a year ago. The result was all five panelists (and Woofer) “overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro video quality.”
> 
> Another test is using the Tektronix video analysis hardware. This piece of kit has been in development for almost 30 years. It takes the original video (in this case pristine 4k video), uses advanced offline techniques to down-scale it (in this case to 1080). Then it compares the upscaled image through the device under test to the original using human factors based algorithms that are based on what is important for the human vision system. For this test, the Radiance Pro scored over 5, and the competition scored 4.2. While not a viewing distance as a test, this does take into account how the human vision system actually works.
> 
> We appreciate the feedback from people posting screen captures give us. Screen captures are a good way for Patrick and me to refine our algorithms. However, too much emphasis is being placed on these for consumer video evaluation. What matters is what you see in your home cinema at viewing distance.



Really great post as always. What are some scenes you like trying for different evaluations? I really liked The Meg scenes you referenced for both checking DynPad and Global Max Light HDR balancing & would love a further playlist of sorts


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Karl:
> 
> Well said.
> 
> People who want to read posts from someone who has been designing video electronics for over 40 years (ouch, am I that old), can read them here.
> 
> Early in my career I had the honor to work with a PhD "perception physicist" and know another. They helped me understand the importance of human factors over just looking at the raw math. This has been a founding principle for Lumagen for the past 20 years.


Plus you can't waste your time with forum soap opera nonsense when you gotta get cracking on PiP/PoP!


----------



## DigitalAV

Javs said:


> I am sorry that you are unhappy with the way I am looking at your product.


Lol c'mon dude settle down, it's not all about you


----------



## Ilushka85

sjschaff said:


> Wondering if this is specific to using the A32 vs. A16, of if the configuration needs to be 5.1.2/7.1.2/9.1.2 or 5.1.4/7.1.4 for the dropouts to occur.
> 
> I have my Trinnov before the LRP but I only have a 5.1 speaker layout. I've had absolutely no dropouts with any DD, DD Plus, Dolby TrueHD, but I don't know how to identify source using DD Plus JOC.
> 
> I will say that I'm using a Zappiti Neo as source and have had issues with DD+ with the Trinnov. But these seem to be specific to the Zappiti (and likely similar players running the same hardware and operating system). I'm using a workaround provided by Chuck Back of Trinnov.
> 
> If anyone can point to specific content I can test, to see if I get dropouts, that might help. However, my Trinnov setup, especially given the 5.1 speaker layout, may not exhibit the symptoms. I'm using Auto for nearly anything I can recall in my configuration.



I have an A16 from January 2022... and have configuration 7.x.4. Trinnov is before lumagen and dropouts are very rare but had it happen and switching to native fixed it. Source was also KScape.


----------



## sjschaff

Ilushka85 said:


> I have an A16 from January 2022... and have configuration 7.x.4. Trinnov is before lumagen and dropouts are very rare but had it happen and switching to native fixed it. Source was also KScape.


Was this the “Native” setting the one for “Listening Format” (play as is), or the “Upmix on Native” option (the content will drive the corresponding upmixer while using the Native speaker layout? And the chart in the Trinnov manual is confusing to me as to the path taken under the varied sources and upmix modes. As I read it, when a Dolby source is played and the setting is Auto the Trinnov Uses the Dolby Surround Upmixer and Atmos layout. For Native No upmixer is used and the layout is Dolby. Maybe someone can suggest how this might prevent dropouts.


----------



## esdwa

Quick question. 

Can Lumagen zoom the wide-screen video footage (2.35x1 or 2.40x1) to fill the entire 16:9 screen?
I understand side portions of the image would get truncated, I am ok with that.









Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

esdwa said:


> Quick question.
> 
> Can Lumagen zoom the wide-screen video footage (2.35x1 or 2.40x1) to fill the entire 16:9 screen?
> I understand side portions of the image wouls be truncated, I am ok with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


If you have a standard setup you can just use the up and down arrows on the remote to achieve this using zoom.


----------



## esdwa

Kris Deering said:


> If you have a standard setup you can just use the up and down arrows on the remote to achieve this using zoom.


"up and down arrows on the remote"

You mean Lumagen unit remote?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

esdwa said:


> "up and down arrows on the remote"
> 
> You mean Lumagen unit remote?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Yes. That was the product you were asking about right?


----------



## Mark Burton

sjschaff said:


> Was this the “Native” setting the one for “Listening Format” (play as is), or the “Upmix on Native” option (the content will drive the corresponding upmixer while using the Native speaker layout? And the chart in the Trinnov manual is confusing to me as to the path taken under the varied sources and upmix modes. As I read it, when a Dolby source is played and the setting is Auto the Trinnov Uses the Dolby Surround Upmixer and Atmos layout. For Native No upmixer is used and the layout is Dolby. Maybe someone can suggest how this might prevent dropouts.


The manual is badly written.

Upmix on native basically does the same as auto.

By default Upmix on native will upmix any Dolby track using the Dolby surround upmixer, except for atmos which doesn’t upmix at all. All dts tracks will be upmixed by neural X.

PCM will be upmixed to Dolby Surround.

You can change the upmixing to cross mix if you wish within the settings.

Auto does exactly the same so never really understood why both options are there.

If you use Native, the trinnov will output exactly the same as it is receiving - ie 5.1 in, 5.1 out. Using this isn’t a solution for people with bigger speaker layouts when the input signal isn’t Dolby atmos.


----------



## bjorg

Question for the experts. I'd like to connect the Trinnov HDMI-OUT to one of my Lumagen HDMI-IN ports. Note that I already have the Lumagen HDMI-OUT going to one of the Trinnov HDMI-IN ports. 

In short, I'd like to add the dashed blue line, which would allow me to see the sound objects display coming from the Trinnov when the HTPC is playing a movie via DisplayPort, which is connected directly to the display.










Is this possible? Any concerns?


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> Question for the experts. I'd like to connect the Trinnov HDMI-OUT to one of my Lumagen HDMI-IN ports. Note that I already have the Lumagen HDMI-OUT going to one of the Trinnov HDMI-IN ports.
> 
> In short, I'd like to add the dashed blue line, which would allow me to see the sound objects display coming from the Trinnov when the HTPC is playing a movie via DisplayPort, which is connected directly to the display.
> 
> Is this possible? Any concerns?


You have the Trinnov output going to a Radiance Pro input, and the Radiance Pro output going to the Trinnov input. This _may_ create what is referred to as an "HDCP authentication loop." This can prevent reliable operation. However, you will not know for sure until you test.

We recommend all HDMI flows in one direction.

One possible idea is to put an HDMI splitter on the HTPC output. One of the splitter outputs goes to the Radiance Pro and one to the Trinnov. This eliminates the authentication loop.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> Question for the experts. I'd like to connect the Trinnov HDMI-OUT to one of my Lumagen HDMI-IN ports. Note that I already have the Lumagen HDMI-OUT going to one of the Trinnov HDMI-IN ports.
> 
> In short, I'd like to add the dashed blue line, which would allow me to see the sound objects display coming from the Trinnov when the HTPC is playing a movie via DisplayPort, which is connected directly to the display.
> 
> View attachment 3241097
> 
> 
> Is this possible? Any concerns?


You'll likely get a lot of HDMI issues as you are creating a loop back between two sources. I've had clients that had lots of issues doing this without ever telling me they were actually doing it. SO frustrating. I'd give them a bunch of recommendations for troubleshooting and it would be on and on and on about nothing is fixing it, the Lumagen is broken. Then I'd do a FaceTime to visually confirm everything before taking the next step of return only to find out the whole time they had a loop back with HDMI because they wanted to be able to access the OSD for setup stuff if necessary but never said they had this. As soon as we took that out of the loop, all the problems were gone completely. 

This goes back to what I've said before about Lumagen and HDMI issues. While most of you only deal with your own setup and get frustrated with issue X or Y, I deal with A LOT of setups (including my own). Mine is stable probably 99.9% of the time. I honestly cannot remember the last time I EVER had an issue with either my 5348 or my 4446-18G test unit that I use for beta testing or for in house calibration use. This includes hang ups, audio drops or anything. I've had AppleTV hiccups, but they've always been the device. With clients, I am at a point where probably 99% of issues are resolved with little effort, but SO many of them are hookup issues that I have to eventually pry out of them because they say one thing but reality is another or they are not completely honest about wiring and setup. I don't know why, but it happens A LOT. This is why it is so hard for me not to take so many of these stories on the forums with a massive grain of salt because my experience in the field. I talk to other installers/calibrators and they say the same thing (Adam Pelz is a great example, and he does work with Radiance products as much or more than I do in setups). Now I am not saying there can't be issues (welcome to the world of CE products and HDMI), it is just that it is extremely rare in my experience that if things are done as recommended that problems will occur. There is ZERO chance I would be using this product in my own system if that wasn't the case because I can't afford to be worrying about issues and such when testing or otherwise. We have CE issues in our house all the time with wi-fi routers, iPads, AppleTV and more, but the Lumagen is just not something I ever have issues with.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> This is why it is so hard for me not to take so many of these stories on the forums with a massive grain of salt because my experience in the field


Yet there are a handful of us (myself included) that have simple wiring and connections, using the recommended cables, and still have issues. :-/


----------



## ccool96

Kris Deering said:


> You'll likely get a lot of HDMI issues as you are creating a loop back between two sources. I've had clients that had lots of issues doing this without ever telling me they were actually doing it. SO frustrating. I'd give them a bunch of recommendations for troubleshooting and it would be on and on and on about nothing is fixing it, the Lumagen is broken. Then I'd do a FaceTime to visually confirm everything before taking the next step of return only to find out the whole time they had a loop back with HDMI because they wanted to be able to access the OSD for setup stuff if necessary but never said they had this. As soon as we took that out of the loop, all the problems were gone completely.


But is this really a loop-back? If I am understanding him correctly, he wants to feed the hdmi out (the monitor output) from the trinnov to the Lumagen, so he can see the trinnov menus onscreen. 

I would think in this case, the monitor hdmi output, would be looked at as a completely different source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> Yet there are a handful of us (myself included) that have simple wiring and connections, using the recommended cables, and still have issues. :-/


Unfortunately. Maybe we can do some kind of FaceTime to go through your rig and see what is what. With you being where you are, an onsite visit is unlikely.


----------



## Kris Deering

ccool96 said:


> But is this really a loop-back? If I am understanding him correctly, he wants to feed the hdmi out (the monitor output) from the trinnov to the Lumagen, so he can see the trinnov menus onscreen.
> 
> I would think in this case, the monitor hdmi output, would be looked at as a completely different source.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


HDMI boards have to look at ALL input and output sources. Both the Lumagen AND Trinnov in this case would be seeing a device both on the output and input side, which can create issues. Again, have had clients with similar setups and it was definitely a problem. Jim mentions that it could be above as well.


----------



## ccool96

Kris Deering said:


> HDMI boards have to look at ALL input and output sources. Both the Lumagen AND Trinnov in this case would be seeing a device both on the output and input side, which can create issues. Again, have had clients with similar setups and it was definitely a problem. Jim mentions that it could be above as well.


I would think that is true if he was talking about coming off the hdmi input / output board, but the hdmi monitor output is totally separate and not connected to that board. 

I thought I had seen multiple instances were people would feed the hdmi monitor output on the trinnov to one of the hdmi input on the trinnov, so the trinnov menus could be fed to a tv or projector. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Kris Deering

ccool96 said:


> I would think that is true if he was talking about coming off the hdmi input / output board, but the hdmi monitor output is totally separate and not connected to that board.
> 
> I thought I had seen multiple instances were people would feed the hdmi monitor output on the trinnov to one of the hdmi input on the trinnov, so the trinnov menus could be fed to a tv or projector.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ah, wasn't thinking about the monitor output of the Trinnov. In that case, it may be fine as it is completely unrelated to the standard AV I/O board. Sorry, was thinking about that.


----------



## Erod

So is Alpha working on all fronts other than a few unique situations?


----------



## Geof

Deleted


----------



## bjorg

ccool96 said:


> But is this really a loop-back? If I am understanding him correctly, he wants to feed the hdmi out (the monitor output) from the trinnov to the Lumagen, so he can see the trinnov menus onscreen.
> 
> I would think in this case, the monitor hdmi output, would be looked at as a completely different source.





ccool96 said:


> I would think that is true if he was talking about coming off the hdmi input / output board, but the hdmi monitor output is totally separate and not connected to that board.
> 
> I thought I had seen multiple instances were people would feed the hdmi monitor output on the trinnov to one of the hdmi input on the trinnov, so the trinnov menus could be fed to a tv or projector.


It never occurred to me that this is indeed a completely different HDMI board! So, in theory, there should be no problem. Thanks to the invaluable input from everyone. Very much appreciated!


----------



## bearcat2002

Anxious for this alpha build progress as well. Appears as quite an improvement over what I already thought was great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> So is Alpha working on all fronts other than a few unique situations?


There are a few bugs (Javs found a good one for us), and the FPGA is not a "full speed synthesis." The test patterns are not in the initial Alpha.

Since the FPGA is not full speed the initial Alpha is not working on all units (as is to be expected).

We will work on unfished code, and bugs. Once the features are in good shape we will spend more time to get a full speed FPGA. We do not have a schedule for this.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> Since the FPGA is not full speed the initial Alpha is not working on all units (as is to be expected).


Why would it not work on all units? How could someone tell Alpha is not working 100 % ?


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> Why would it not work on all units? How could someone tell Alpha is not working 100 % ?


If you were on 090121 and updated to the initial Alpha and things that worked on 090121 do not work on the Alpha is really the only way to know.

This might be a lock on, or dropout issue, but it could be something else.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> If you were on 090121 and updated to the initial Alpha and things that worked on 090121 do not work on the Alpha is really the only way to know.
> 
> This might be a lock on, or dropout issue, but it could be something else.


In my case, my projector is unable to resolve 4K 60 resolution but worked fine with 4K 30 and 4K 24. This whole FPGA stuff is complicated to understand for a consumer.


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> In my case, my projector is unable to resolve 4K 60 resolution but worked fine with 4K 30 and 4K 24. This whole FPGA stuff is complicated to understand for a consumer.


That could be FPGA timing, but it could also be an issue with your projector and 4K60 signals.


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> That could be FPGA timing, but it could also be an issue with your projector and 4K60 signals.


I have been corresponding with Jim in the past week over this. He also offered a few suggestions for me to try but to no avail. I would know whether the "culprit" is my projector by now because the last stable firmware is working rock solid. I have been flashing and re-flashing between the stable and the alpha firmware to confirm that it is the Lumagen and in this case, the FPGA is most likely the "culprit".


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> I have been corresponding with Jim in the past week over this. He also offered a few suggestions for me to try but to no avail. I would know whether the "culprit" is my projector by now because the last stable firmware is working rock solid. I have been flashing and re-flashing between the stable and the alpha firmware to confirm that it is the Lumagen and in this case, the FPGA is most likely the "culprit".


Gotcha. If 4k60 works with last standard release, than definitely something with the Alpha.


----------



## uderman

Any update on the LAN upgrade for the 5348? I understand the current big update is the priority right now but how far down is the LAN upgrade on your priority list?


----------



## alv

Is there a good way to update software with a Mac laptop? I have been borrowing a friend's PC but would rather my own solution.


----------



## A7mad78

alv said:


> Is there a good way to update software with a Mac laptop? I have been borrowing a friend's PC but would rather my own solution.


I have mac but I was Parler to install windows and use it for lumagen and crestron as they don’t have macs driver 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ht guy

alv said:


> Is there a good way to update software with a Mac laptop? I have been borrowing a friend's PC but would rather my own solution.


I'm with A7mad78.
It's not cheap (tho cheaper than buying a PC,) but Parallels works great.


----------



## Geof

ht guy said:


> I'm with A7mad78.
> It's not cheap (tho cheaper than buying a PC,) but Parallels works great.


Except with Apple Silicon....


----------



## audioguy

Geof said:


> Except with Apple Silicon....


Works there too — for the most part!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nodular

Recently got a JVC NZ7 with a Lumagen 4242 in the chain. Is there an HDMI board compatibility issue between the Radiance and NZ7?
Hopefully a firmware release will fix this 🤞
I’m having to downscale a 4K output to 1080p (Ezcoo Splitter) Xbox X for the NZ7 to then display an image.
If I switch the splitter to 4K pass through, I just get a blue screen.


----------



## ht guy

audioguy said:


> Works there too — for the most part!!


I'm using m1, so good to know it will still work for this limited purpose? (haven't done a FW update since I started driving an m1.)


----------



## jrp

nodular said:


> Recently got a JVC NZ7 with a Lumagen 4242 in the chain. Is there an HDMI board compatibility issue between the Radiance and NZ7?
> Hopefully a firmware release will fix this 🤞
> I’m having to downscale a 4K output to 1080p (Ezcoo Splitter) Xbox X for the NZ7 to then display an image.
> If I switch the splitter to 4K pass through, I just get a blue screen.


We have posted a few times before on this, but hard to look back for such issues.

JVC did something in their NZ series production firmware release to hopefully fix there HDMI issues with some products (mainstream AVRs, and maybe others), but in the process created issues with a number of other products. Unfortunately one product they broke the connection for in their efforts to fix others is the Radiance Pro output.

We have a preproduction NZ firmware release that works well with the Radiance Pro. We can send it to you if you email lumagen.com support email.


----------



## esdwa

nodular said:


> Recently got a JVC NZ7 with a Lumagen 4242 in the chain. Is there an HDMI board compatibility issue between the Radiance and NZ7?
> Hopefully a firmware release will fix this
> I’m having to downscale a 4K output to 1080p (Ezcoo Splitter) Xbox X for the NZ7 to then display an image.
> If I switch the splitter to 4K pass through, I just get a blue screen.


Forget those cheap splitters. Get HDFury Vertex. I got one and it solved all issues for HDMI and HDCP compatibility. And in addition it splits the source between my OLED and PJ. I am sure it will fix "this something" JVC did and Lumagen referring to. Best investment I made. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## nodular

jrp said:


> We have posted a few times before on this, but hard to look back for such issues.
> 
> JVC did something in their NZ series production firmware release to hopefully fix there HDMI issues with some products (mainstream AVRs, and maybe others), but in the process created issues with a number of other products. Unfortunately one product they broke the connection for in their efforts to fix others is the Radiance Pro output.
> 
> We have a preproduction NZ firmware release that works well with the Radiance Pro. We can send it to you if you email lumagen.com support email.


Thanks for your reply Jim. I have Gordon Fraser dropping round on Thurs to calibrate the new projector 🙂


----------



## nodular

esdwa said:


> Forget those cheap splitters. Get HDFury Vertex. I got one and it solved all issues for HDMI and HDCP compatibility. And in addition it splits the source between my OLED and PJ. I am sure it will fix "this something" JVC did and Lumagen referring to. Best investment I made.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Thanks for the info on the HD Fury Vertex, I’m going to try the firmware that Jim mentioned in his reply and hopefully that will work well with the NZ.
Failing that then, the Vertex will be worth a shot 👍


----------



## Geof

audioguy said:


> Works there too — for the most part!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


HUH? That is news to me....All I heard was Apple Silicon was the end of running Windows.....I guess I have some studying to do....(I did keep a 2105 MBP and run Windows 10 in Bootcamp which was my solution to updating the RP, JVC and calibration SW).


----------



## audioguy

Geof said:


> HUH? That is news to me....All I heard was Apple Silicon was the end of running Windows.....I guess I have some studying to do....(I did keep a 2105 MBP and run Windows 10 in Bootcamp which was my solution to updating the RP, JVC and calibration SW).


I'm responding to this on a MacBook Air M1 running Parallels and Windows 11.


----------



## nodular

Jim has kindly provided me with the pre/pro firmware. I’ve emailed him back to see if it’s ok to use with the NZ7 which I have, as well as the NZ9 which he’s mentioned.


----------



## alv

It took a while for Parallels to get updated. Early M1 days it didn't work.


----------



## audioguy

alv said:


> It took a while for Parallels to get updated. Early M1 days it didn't work.


Very true. I only made the update (out of necessity) a few weeks ago. And it won't support my favorite version of Windows, Windows 7!!


----------



## mkohman

Hi All, I use the KECES P8 to power my lumagen with the GhentAudio Canare DC cable recommended by Jim. Tonight I notice that the red standby light is not showing on my 5348 and when I check the KECES P8 it says Zone: 0VP (flashing continuously). When I power off the KECES P8 and re power it displays Zone: 13.0v and then after a few seconds powers down again and the red standby light on my lumagen dissappears again.

I do realise that before the KECES P8 would display Zone:12.1v and not 13v as it is doing so now so I was wondering if somehow is it over voltage power shutting it down or something along this line? Why would it be doing this? Any ideas at all?

For the record the KECES P8 is a single output 9/12v.


----------



## Geof

mkohman said:


> Hi All, I use the KECES P8 to power my lumagen with the GhentAudio Canare DC cable recommended by Jim. Tonight I notice that the red standby light is not showing on my 5348 and when I check the KECES P8 it says Zone: 0VP (flashing continuously). When I power off the KECES P8 and re power it displays Zone: 13.0v and then after a few seconds powers down again and the red standby light on my lumagen dissappears again.
> 
> I do realise that before the KECES P8 would display Zone:12.1v and not 13v as it is doing so now so I was wondering if somehow is it over voltage power shutting it down or something along this line? Why would it be doing this? Any ideas at all?
> 
> For the record the KECES P8 is a single output 9/12v.


According the to the Keces web page it looks like the over voltage protection (OVP) is kicking in...
An internal failure could cause the OVP to kick in... I'd suggest contacting them about warranty/replacement.


----------



## mkohman

Geof said:


> According the to the Keces web page it looks like the over voltage protection (OVP) is kicking in...
> An internal failure could cause the OVP to kick in... I'd suggest contacting them about warranty/replacement.
> 
> View attachment 3242372


Thank you Geoff, I did think that may be the issue but wasn't sure until I completely unplugged the lumagen from it and powered it up on its own. Same thing happened so I will definitely contact them tomorrow thanks for your help 👍


----------



## esdwa

Guys,
Anyone would be so kind and post a video on YT or here showing how LRP zoom/crop Cinemascope footage (2.40 or 2.35) to fill the 16:9 screen (remove black top/bot bars)?









Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

esdwa said:


> Guys,
> Anyone would be so kind and post a video on YT or here showing how LRP zoom/crop Cinemascope footage (2.40 or 2.35) to fill the 16:9 screen (remove black top/bot bars)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


You already asked this and Kris responded saying to use the up/down buttons on the lumagen remote.


----------



## bobof

esdwa said:


> Guys,
> Anyone would be so kind and post a video on YT or here showing how LRP zoom/crop Cinemascope footage (2.40 or 2.35) to fill the 16:9 screen (remove black top/bot bars)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


What are you expecting to see - it is just a crop?
Edit: or is it actually Auto aspect adjustment you are talking about, and the timing of such detection?


----------



## stephenbr

Does anyone know if a Keces P3 linear power supply (3A output) is suitable for a Lumagen?


----------



## OzHDHT

stephenbr said:


> Does anyone know if a Keces P3 linear power supply (3A output) is suitable for a Lumagen?


I imagine so. I've got a similarly priced one designed a Mytek Brooklyn DAC that I bought mid last year. 5A though. 









LPS80VA | Jays Audio


80Watts Linear Power Supply




www.jays-audio.com


----------



## netroamer

stephenbr said:


> Does anyone know if a Keces P3 linear power supply (3A output) is suitable for a Lumagen?


In a recent conversation with JP we discussed using a 12v 4A power supply and he mentioned that the 5348 needs about 3A but I would think that a 3A supply would cut it pretty close.


----------



## Peule_P

stephenbr said:


> Does anyone know if a Keces P3 linear power supply (3A output) is suitable for a Lumagen?


I used a P3 on my 2144 and it worked, although the Keces died after a few months and it was replaced under warranty.
Not sure if the Keces ‘just died’ or the 2144 made it running on the edge though.

For a Radiance Pro I would assume it uses a bit more power with 4K and DTM processing etc so I wouldn’t risk it and go for a P8


----------



## woofer

I use and recommend the "Up Tone Audio "JS-2 LPS" using this with my 5348....very happy with the results..









JS-2 Linear Power Supply


Dual-output, choke-filtered linear power supply with four user-selectable DC output voltages. 5 amps continuous at any voltage; Up to 6.8 amps.




uptoneaudio.com


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

woofer said:


> I use and recommend the "Up Tone Audio "JS-2 LPS" using this with my 5348....very happy with the results..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JS-2 Linear Power Supply
> 
> 
> Dual-output, choke-filtered linear power supply with four user-selectable DC output voltages. 5 amps continuous at any voltage; Up to 6.8 amps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uptoneaudio.com


That has my tax return written all over it 😁


----------



## OzHDHT

Aaron Toulmin said:


> That has my tax return written all over it 😁


One I bought by LHY was a little more reasonable at $655.

Didn't get it here but this is it:








LPS80VA | Jays Audio


80Watts Linear Power Supply




www.jays-audio.com


----------



## stephenbr

Thanks for all the replies to my question about the Keces - unfortunately (perhaps not) I missed out on the one for sale that I was interested in.


----------



## bobof

I wouldn't go with anything lower than the rated output of the original supply. (12V 5A I recall). This is a Radiance Pro 5348 wall draw at 4k60 with tonemapping. Even if you were pessimistic on the efficiency of the SMPSU, you'd still be way over 3A at 12V.


----------



## OzHDHT

stephenbr said:


> Thanks for all the replies to my question about the Keces - unfortunately (perhaps not) I missed out on the one for sale that I was interested in.


Maybe consider the other alternatives. Was the Keces you missed at a specially priced/second hand or something?


----------



## Peule_P

bobof said:


> I wouldn't go with anything lower than the rated output of the original supply. (12V 5A I recall). This is a Radiance Pro 5348 wall draw at 4k60 with tonemapping. Even if you were pessimistic on the efficiency of the SMPSU, you'd still be way over 3A at 12V.
> View attachment 3244549


yikes, 4.75A, looks like the Keces P3 doesn't stand a chance then, even a dual output P8 wouldn't be an option and you really need the single output version


----------



## Sandel

Peule_P said:


> yikes, 4.75A, looks like the Keces P3 doesn't stand a chance then, even a dual output P8 wouldn't be an option and you really need the single output version


I'm using the LRP with the P8 without any problems for quite some time now. My Radiance Pro is the 4446 though, so it might be different with your machine...


----------



## bobof

Peule_P said:


> yikes, 4.75A, looks like the Keces P3 doesn't stand a chance then, even a dual output P8 wouldn't be an option and you really need the single output version


Note this is AC wall power into the SMPSU, not DC power into the Radiance Pro, so you can't do the calculation you did, you need to allow for the efficiency losses in the SMPSU, which never get as far as the Radiance. A PSU is specified on its output power.

The better way of monitoring this would be using something in the DC path as such efficiency calculations are only ever ballpark, but the AC readings are quick and easy for me as I have the Radiance Pro plugged into an energy monitoring smart socket to allow me to power it on and off at the wall if required. So I just provided that for info.

I don't have the data to hand for the factory PSU that I am using, but another similar PSU I have from another vendor is around 88% efficient. 

So if you use that as an example; 57.1W of input power becomes 51.7*0.88 = 45.5W of output DC power @ 12V. 45.5W / 12 = 3.8A @ 12V. I think good practice says you should always give yourself a healthy margin where power supplies are concerned, so 5A is really a sensible minimum.


----------



## Peule_P

Ah. I thought you measured the DC current 
I measured it once on my 2144 and is was something like 2.5-2.75A if I recall correct.

but yes, for the RP definitely get something beefier


----------



## stephenbr

OzHDHT said:


> Maybe consider the other alternatives. Was the Keces you missed at a specially priced/second hand or something?


Will look at the alternatives - they look good. The Keces was a 2nd hand unit at a good price.


----------



## ht guy

I got the P8 (at Jim's recommendation,) for our 5348 a year ago for $700.
Works great.
Today it is $900, so I also recommended a Teddy Pardo to a friend (~$550.) The model is listed at 4.5A, but you can get a 5A just by including that request in your order.


----------



## gerard1meehan

Could One use a Linear power supply like a Tripp lite PR7? 

*7-Amp DC Power Supply, 13.8VDC, Precision Regulated AC-to-DC Conversion*

SUPPORT PDF
Provide precise DC power from an AC source with this compact and lightweight DC power supply. The PR7 efficiently converts 120 volts AC into 13.8 volts DC. Its high power density makes it perfect for a wide range of applications, like home use of single-sideband CB radios, quality control equipment,


----------



## jrp

stephenbr said:


> Does anyone know if a Keces P3 linear power supply (3A output) is suitable for a Lumagen?


No. The Radiance Pro requires 12 VDC with at least 5 Amps.


----------



## bobof

gerard1meehan said:


> Could One use a Linear power supply like a Tripp lite PR7?
> 
> *7-Amp DC Power Supply, 13.8VDC, Precision Regulated AC-to-DC Conversion*


You don't want to use a higher voltage than specified, this is just trying to find a problem. Any internal linear LDOs just won a ton of power they now need to drop, DCDC converters will possibly be outside their original design specs, etc. 

External power supplies need to be correctly rated for voltage and at least sufficiently rated for current.


----------



## DigitalAV

If I'm already using a dedicated step-down isolation transformer for my power, would I see any benefit using a LPS for my Radiance Pro? Is the idea just to clean up the power?


----------



## jrp

gerard1meehan said:


> Could One use a Linear power supply like a Tripp lite PR7?
> 
> *7-Amp DC Power Supply, 13.8VDC, Precision Regulated AC-to-DC Conversion*
> 
> SUPPORT PDF
> Provide precise DC power from an AC source with this compact and lightweight DC power supply. The PR7 efficiently converts 120 volts AC into 13.8 volts DC. Its high power density makes it perfect for a wide range of applications, like home use of single-sideband CB radios, quality control equipment,


While the Radiance Pro is specified to have a 12 VDC supply, the DC-DC switching regulators I used are specified for up to 15 VDC input voltage. So this supply should work fine.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> If I'm already using a dedicated step-down isolation transformer for my power, would I see any benefit using a LPS for my Radiance Pro? Is the idea just to clean up the power?


If the step down transformer drives more than just the Radiance Pro, a linear supply for the Radiance Pro will inject less noise back to the other devices on the output of the step down transformer.

The linear power supply will also have a lower noise floor driving the 12 VDC input of the Radiance Pro.

You would need to do your own testing to know if this has a noticeable effect on audio or video in your home cinema.


----------



## A7mad78

For the Keces P8 which is the power needed is the single 9V/12V 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jollyguy23

Looking for a setting help that I am not able to figure out.( Not sure if this is a Kaleidescape setting or a LRP setting but starting here) 

I have a scope screen and a JVC RS3100 and LRP 4242 along with a Kaleidescape. I have auto aspect ratio set and below is the setting. 










When I play a 235 or a 240 movie from Kscape, the LRP does the aspect to fill the scope screen. 

When I play a 178 movie from Kscape the LRP does the aspect such to fill the screen height (I get black bars in the sides which i an totally fine with) 

How ever when I play the movie Aquaman that I very recently purchased on Kscape, it calls out that it is a 1.78 movie but it does not fill my screen height as I expected on the other movies. Why is this movie different and what setting am I missing? 

Any help greatly appreciated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

jollyguy23 said:


> when I play the movie Aquaman


Aquaman is a VAR title on iTunes and on disc, so I'm assuming it also is on K?


----------



## uderman

Keces P8 single output vs. dual output
The total capacitance and number of regulators are the same on both models however the single output model dedicates all capacitors and regulators to single output whereas the dual output models splits them into two (half for each output). This makes a big difference in output quality.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jollyguy23 said:


> Looking for a setting help that I am not able to figure out.( Not sure if this is a Kaleidescape setting or a LRP setting but starting here)
> 
> I have a scope screen and a JVC RS3100 and LRP 4242 along with a Kaleidescape. I have auto aspect ratio set and below is the setting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I play a 235 or a 240 movie from Kscape, the LRP does the aspect to fill the scope screen.
> 
> When I play a 178 movie from Kscape the LRP does the aspect such to fill the screen height (I get black bars in the sides which i an totally fine with)
> 
> How ever when I play the movie Aquaman that I very recently purchased on Kscape, it calls out that it is a 1.78 movie but it does not fill my screen height as I expected on the other movies. Why is this movie different and what setting am I missing?
> 
> Any help greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do not have the devices in front of me to test but change the Control from HDMI + Image to IMAGE only and see what happens


----------



## giomania

jrp said:


> If the step down transformer drives more than just the Radiance Pro, a linear supply for the Radiance Pro will inject less noise back to the other devices on the output of the step down transformer.
> 
> The linear power supply will also have a lower noise floor driving the 12 VDC input of the Radiance Pro.
> 
> You would need to do your own testing to know if this has a noticeable effect on audio or video in your home cinema.


hi Jim, 

I have an EquiTech balanced power sub-panel, which has a step-down transformer that sends out 60V on the Hot and 60V on the Neutral, and an isolated ground circuit. The balanced power is supposed to offer noise rejection, so I would be curious to know your thoughts on this over a dedicated LPS.

Thanks.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jollyguy23

Gordon Fraser said:


> I do not have the devices in front of me to test but change the Control from HDMI + Image to IMAGE only and see what happens


Thank you, Gordon. Nothing changed when I made it image. This movie certainly changes aspect ratio but I have. It figured out how to say fill the scope screen when there is a 235 section of the movie and fill the height of the screen when there is a 16:9 content of the movie. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

jollyguy23 said:


> Thank you, Gordon. Nothing changed when I made it image. This movie certainly changes aspect ratio but I have. It figured out how to say fill the scope screen when there is a 235 section of the movie and fill the height of the screen when there is a 16:9 content of the movie.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With movies like Aquaman I would recommend you just lock the aspect ratio to scope for the whole movie rather than having it do weird aspect stuff for the 16x9 portions. To do this, in the aspect ratio setup menu enable STICKY ASPECT OVERRIDE in the menu. Then when the movie has started, press the aspect you wish to lock to (in this case 2.4) and it will stay in that aspect for the entire movie. When you stop the movie or switch to another input, it will go back to AUTO aspect on its own. This is what I recommend for all of the shifting aspect movies for those with scope setups.


----------



## jollyguy23

Kris Deering said:


> With movies like Aquaman I would recommend you just lock the aspect ratio to scope for the whole movie rather than having it do weird aspect stuff for the 16x9 portions. To do this, in the aspect ratio setup menu enable STICKY ASPECT OVERRIDE in the menu. Then when the movie has started, press the aspect you wish to lock to (in this case 2.4) and it will stay in that aspect for the entire movie. When you stop the movie or switch to another input, it will go back to AUTO aspect on its own. This is what I recommend for all of the shifting aspect movies for those with scope setups.


Thank you, @Kris Deering . I tried this option with the sticky and it certainly helps with the changing aspect. One this I find though is I play the movie (the lumagen Aspect option is are you sticky ON). Then I select 2.40. Now the image does not fill the entire scope screen (like when I play a scape movie). Is this expected?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

giomania said:


> hi Jim,
> 
> I have an EquiTech balanced power sub-panel, which has a step-down transformer that sends out 60V on the Hot and 60V on the Neutral, and an isolated ground circuit. The balanced power is supposed to offer noise rejection, so I would be curious to know your thoughts on this over a dedicated LPS.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mark


My previous post applies to either a single ended transformer, or your balanced 60VAC hot and negative phase 60 VAC. The digital supply will inject noise back into the transformer either way. The Digital supply will inject more noise into the Radiance Pro in either case. As mentioned you have to test to see if this makes a noticeable difference.

Said another way, a linear power supply should always be as good or better than the digital switching power supply.

The balanced transformer should reduce electrical noise in the balanced transformer output.


----------



## Craig Peer

jollyguy23 said:


> Thank you, @Kris Deering . I tried this option with the sticky and it certainly helps with the changing aspect. One this I find though is I play the movie (the lumagen Aspect option is are you sticky ON). Then I select 2.40. Now the image does not fill the entire scope screen (like when I play a scape movie). Is this expected?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It should fill your scope screen like normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Erod

How's it going with you alpha firmware testers?


----------



## alv

To follow Erod, are the alpha testers still on V.1 or has V.2 been released.


----------



## dlinsley

Still the first more open Alpha version. I've only had one issue the one time, and not again the past two weeks. Apart from the lack of the test pattern generator, it has been solid.


----------



## desray2k

alv said:


> To follow Erod, are the alpha testers still on V.1 or has V.2 been released.


I believe its still on v1...it doesn't work on my RP 4242 due to the FPGA not running full speed. Waiting for Jim to send me v2 of the alpha f/w. Hopefully soon.


----------



## birdog

I have a question. I received the VrRoom for Christmas and it's still in the box as I've been redoing my media room.
I also may be able to snag a Lumagen 4242 at a really good deal.

My question is, should I just use the Lumagen and perhaps find another use for the VrRoom in a different room, or would it be advantageous to to use both in the chain?


----------



## dlinsley

birdog said:


> I have a question. I received the VrRoom for Christmas and it's still in the box as I've been redoing my media room.
> I also may be able to snag a Lumagen 4242 at a really good deal.
> 
> My question is, should I just use the Lumagen and perhaps find another use for the VrRoom in a different room, or would it be advantageous to to use both in the chain?


How do you plan on using them? I'm not au fait with all of the Vrroom use cases, but it seems many people need it to get audio via eARC from an Xbox X or PS5 to an HDMI 2.0 receiver. That would still be useful if you are planning on gaming in the same room and need/prefer the Lumagen for tone mapping / scaling for non-gaming content. What display do you have?


----------



## jrp

An update on the Alpha release:

As mentioned we are on the first Alpha release. Overall it is working well for most Alpha testers. Since the FPGA is not a full speed synthesis, it does not work on a few of the units.

Patrick is making progress on the bugs reported in this release, and we are hoping to do the second Alpha release late this week or next weekend.

Note that we are working on bugs first. Then once those are in good shape, we can then work on a full speed FPGA timing release. So it is not clear how close to production timing the second Alpha release will be. Like the first Alpha it should work on most, but likely not all units. Since synthesis timing changes as to what works, and what is not at full speed, it may work on some that the first release did not, and not work on some that did work with the first Alpha did work for. We will only know as people test the second Alpha.

After the second Alpha release, I am hoping we are in good enough shape to work on a full-speed FPGA synthesis.

We appreciate everyone's feedback on the Alpha release, and your patience as we work toward a Beta release.


----------



## birdog

dlinsley said:


> How do you plan on using them? I'm not au fait with all of the Vrroom use cases, but it seems many people need it to get audio via eARC from an Xbox X or PS5 to an HDMI 2.0 receiver. That would still be useful if you are planning on gaming in the same room and need/prefer the Lumagen for tone mapping / scaling for non-gaming content. What display do you have?


I have a JVC NZ7 with a 130-inch 2:35:1 screen. I wanted the VrRoom from HDfury as it would enable me to access DV on all of my sources. I have the Xbox series X, PS5, Oppo 203, Nvidea shield proand Zidoo Z1000 pro.

Now I have an opportunity to get the Lumagen at a great price. Wasn't sure if I could possibly throw those sources into the VrRoom to get the DV, then send that to the Lumagen to have it do its magic there.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> An update on the Alpha release:
> 
> As mentioned we are on the first Alpha release. Overall it is working well for most Alpha testers. Since the FPGA is not a full speed synthesis, it does not work on a few of the units.
> 
> Patrick is making progress on the bugs reported in this release, and we are hoping to do the second Alpha release late this week or next weekend.
> 
> Note that we are working on bugs first. Then once those are in good shape, we can then work on a full speed FPGA timing release. So it is not clear how close to production timing the second Alpha release will be. Like the first Alpha it should work on most, but likely not all units. Since synthesis timing changes as to what works, and what is not at full speed, it may work on some that the first release did not, and not work on some that did work with the first Alpha did work for. We will only know as people test the second Alpha.
> 
> After the second Alpha release, I am hoping we are in good enough shape to work on a full-speed FPGA synthesis.
> 
> We appreciate everyone's feedback on the Alpha release, and your patience as we work toward a Beta release.


Looking forward to the 2nd Alpha release. I will definitely test it. Keep me posted.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## gerard1meehan

birdog said:


> I have a JVC NZ7 with a 130-inch 2:35:1 screen. I wanted the VrRoom from HDfury as it would enable me to access DV on all of my sources. I have the Xbox series X, PS5, Oppo 203, Nvidea shield proand Zidoo Z1000 pro.
> 
> Now I have an opportunity to get the Lumagen at a great price. Wasn't sure if I could possibly throw those sources into the VrRoom to get the DV, then send that to the Lumagen to have it do its magic there.



I currently have a Vertex 2 that I feed my Firestick into and my oppo 203. I use the vertex in matrix mode with no Scaling. Output TX0 (oppo) goes to one Lumagen input and output TX1 goes to another. I only utilize the DV to HDR function in the Vertex. 

vertex2 settings bellow.


----------



## feelthesound

I hope Jim will add LLDV support on lumagen pro 5348… Even a hardware like vertex do it.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

feelthesound said:


> I hope Jim will add LLDV support on lumagen pro 5348… Even a hardware like vertex do it.


The whole point of dynamic tone mapping is so we don’t need LLDV. It would be a step backwards


----------



## desray2k

Precisely.


----------



## feelthesound

But at last all DV movie and series are restricted to hdr10… and it’s just about an option to do or not it.


----------



## Kris Deering

People who are asking for LLDV support with the Lumagen obviously have no understanding of HDR or LLDV. It isn't going to happen and for a good reason.


----------



## Erod

...


----------



## feelthesound

Ok so for you a signal in HDR10 , 10bits, and a DV with 12bits color… is the same ? Come on… the difference it’s huge!
It’s about have all colors data but without the DV adaptative metadata.

And please, keep calm. Little agressive…


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> People who are asking for LLDV support with the Lumagen obviously have no understanding of HDR or LLDV. It isn't going to happen and for a good reason.


For those that don't understand, an explanation would be instructive.


----------



## desray2k

feelthesound said:


> Ok so for you a signal in HDR10 , 10bits, and a DV with 12bits color… is the same ? Come on… the difference it’s huge!
> It’s about have all colors data but without the DV adaptative metadata.
> 
> And please, keep calm. Little agressive…


While the DV 12bits does present a possibility for the display of a wider color gamut (within the BT2020 colorimetry) but does the content itself actually utilize it? I wonder how many Hollywood blockbusters actually showcase a wide spectrum of colors beyond a certain point in the BT2020. I believe most movies will not yield much of a difference in terms of the range of colors it can reproduce in consumer display panels like projector or OLED TV. 

My 2 cents.


----------



## Kris Deering

feelthesound said:


> Ok so for you a signal in HDR10 , 10bits, and a DV with 12bits color… is the same ? Come on… the difference it’s huge!
> It’s about have all colors data but without the DV adaptative metadata.
> 
> And please, keep calm. Little agressive…


Very little DV data is actually 12 bit as most titles don't use the full enhancement layer (and even when they are flagged for it, little of it is there). Trying to combine LLDV with Lumagen's HDR processing is essentially trying to overlay two dynamic gamma systems over each other. LLDV has issues of its own (I've talked extensively with Stacey Spears about this and he has mentioned that Dolby has A LOT of problems with this and his testing has shown that it is pretty bad. In his personal setup he is now using MadVR with an OLED specifically so he doesn't have to use DV). And that is just someone that has the option of using DV WITHOUT LLDV, which has its own drawbacks, especially when you are talking about using it with a projector. 

Also, the 12 bits has NOTHING to do with color gamut coverage, it is just the resolution of the steps to avoid banding at high nit values.


----------



## gerard1meehan

Kris Deering said:


> Very little DV data is actually 12 bit as most titles don't use the full enhancement layer (and even when they are flagged for it, little of it is there). Trying to combine LLDV with Lumagen's HDR processing is essentially trying to overlay two dynamic gamma systems over each other. LLDV has issues of its own (I've talked extensively with Stacey Spears about this and he has mentioned that Dolby has A LOT of problems with this and his testing has shown that it is pretty bad. In his personal setup he is now using MadVR with an OLED specifically so he doesn't have to use DV). And that is just someone that has the option of using DV WITHOUT LLDV, which has its own drawbacks, especially when you are talking about using it with a projector.
> 
> Also, the 12 bits has NOTHING to do with color gamut coverage, it is just the resolution of the steps to avoid banding at high nit values.



Thank you for that explanation. I have been recently been utilizing the Vertex in that mode to overcome an issue I had/ having with my Firestick. I reached to Lumagen support this morning after yesterdays conversation. Hopefully they can point me in a better direction and if so will share with the group.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Kris Deering said:


> People who are asking for LLDV support with the Lumagen obviously have no understanding of HDR or LLDV. It isn't going to happen and for a good reason.


Dude there really is no need to respond to people like this. It’s just bullying and serves no purpose. Lots of people value your insight, including me, but this type of response is common from you its just unnecessary.


----------



## appelz

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Dude there really is no need to respond to people like this. It’s just bullying and serves no purpose. Lots of people value your insight, including me, but this type of response is common from you its just unnecessary.


In digital media, brevity is often mis-construed as also being agressive. I've had to modity my email and posting style over the years, as I'm often sending quick replies before boarding a flight etc. More often lately, I simply decide that I don't have time for a full reply, and bookmark it for later if I have time. 

"Just the facts, ma'am."


----------



## Kris Deering

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Dude there really is no need to respond to people like this. It’s just bullying and serves no purpose. Lots of people value your insight, including me, but this type of response is common from you its just unnecessary.


Sorry if you thought it was bullying. It was a quick response. There are a few on these boards that have been championing LLDV as some great solution, but it is a hack solution for displays that have poor to no tone mapping and has no place at all in this type of thread. But I am also not going to spend a bunch of my time trying to explain everything to everyone, which is what everyone seems to want whenever stuff like this gets posted.


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> While the DV 12bits does present a possibility for the display of a wider color gamut (within the BT2020 colorimetry) but does the content itself actually utilize it? I wonder how many Hollywood blockbusters actually showcase a wide spectrum of colors beyond a certain point in the BT2020. I believe most movies will not yield much of a difference in terms of the range of colors it can reproduce in consumer display panels like projector or OLED TV.
> 
> My 2 cents.


As Kris says, 12bit has nothing to do with whether you can display 2020. 2020 is there in UHD HDR10 bluray, which is only 10bit.


----------



## jqmn

bobof said:


> As Kris says, 12bit has nothing to do with whether you can display 2020. 2020 is there in UHD HDR10 bluray, which is only 10bit.


How about all are right?? I read it as @desray2k meaning the number of hues within the gamut and thus "wider...(within the BT2020 colorimetry)...". I have seen sites using the same wording but also really meaning number of colors (~6.8x or so(?)) within the gamut via increased bit depth per channel. So yes, the base layer is 10-bit per color channel but MEL + FEL where FEL not equal to 0 gets to full enhancement (12-bit) per color channel doesn't it? What that translates to image wise vs 10-bit is another thing perhaps....


----------



## Sittler27

For those of us with a Trinnov and Lumagen, is the preferred method of connection still routing sources to Lumagen, and the video out from Lumagen to display and audio out from Lumagen to the Trinnov?


----------



## bobof

jqmn said:


> How about all are right?? I read it as @desray2k meaning the number of hues within the gamut and thus "wider...(within the BT2020 colorimetry)...". I have seen sites using the same wording but also really meaning number of colors (~6.8x or so(?)) within the gamut via increased bit depth per channel. So yes, the base layer is 10-bit per color channel but MEL + FEL where FEL not equal to 0 gets to full enhancement (12-bit) per color channel doesn't it? What that translates to image wise vs 10-bit is another thing perhaps....


I was correcting a factual inaccuracy of the post I quoted (that somehow the 12bit facilitates wider gamut than 10 bit). More bits can equal more colours, which could bring some benefits, but has no effect on the gamut "wideness". That is defined by the primaries and the min and max luminance coding levels for an absolute standard like PQ, which are the same for DV and HDR10.


----------



## desray2k

Sittler27 said:


> For those of us with a Trinnov and Lumagen, is the preferred method of connection still routing sources to Lumagen, and the video out from Lumagen to display and audio out from Lumagen to the Trinnov?


I thought this method has always been the preferred way of connection by Lumagen regardless of the brand and model of the Preamp or AVR you are using.


----------



## desray2k

bobof said:


> I was correcting a factual inaccuracy of the post I quoted (that somehow the 12bit facilitates wider gamut than 10 bit). More bits can equal more colours, which could bring some benefits, but has no effect on the gamut "wideness". That is defined by the primaries and the min and max luminance coding levels for an absolute standard like PQ, which are the same for DV and HDR10.


Thanks for the clarification. I admit my choice of words are wrong even though that's not what I'm trying to say.

My response is much more general and less technical in response to the question to 10bit vs 12bit. With all things equal, HDR10 (10bit) or DV (up to 12bit) ALL focus their colorimetry within the BT2020. What I'm trying to say that even somehow we lead ourselves into thinking that 12bit is able to "produce a wider gamut" (this is the part I admit the wrong choice of words. A finer gradation of colors in terms of hues that will contribute to less banding) but how many films truly pushes the boundaries to reach the maximum BT2020 gamut limit? Be it 10bit or 12bit, there is very little we can see in terms of color range (that's my main message).


----------



## Dave Harper

Kris Deering said:


> Sorry if you thought it was bullying. It was a quick response. There are a few on these boards that have been championing LLDV as some great solution, but it is a hack solution for displays that have poor to no tone mapping and has no place at all in this type of thread. But I am also not going to spend a bunch of my time trying to explain everything to everyone, which is what everyone seems to want whenever stuff like this gets posted.


We need affordable processor solutions then, if this is such a hack. Maybe it’s time for these companies to come out with something better at $1,000 or less?


----------



## Kris Deering

Dave Harper said:


> We need affordable processor solutions then, if this is such a hack. Maybe it’s time for these companies to come out with something better at $1,000 or less?


Agree. I’m surprised there hasn’t been some small boxes from HD Fury or something along those lines that do nothing but tone mapping for those that want it but don’t want to spend the coin on higher end solutions.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I’m surprised there hasn’t been some small boxes from HD Fury or something along those lines that do nothing but tone mapping for those that want it but don’t want to spend the coin on higher end solutions.


To be honest in another generation or two it will be irrelevant. All devices / display will have some kind of dynamic tone mapping.


----------



## bjorg

Aaron Toulmin said:


> To be honest in another generation or two it will be irrelevant. All devices / display will have some kind of dynamic tone mapping.


It's less of a question if they have tone mapping than the quality of the tone mapping. Good quality costs money, at least for a while until it becomes common place.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I’m surprised there hasn’t been some small boxes from HD Fury or something along those lines that do nothing but tone mapping for those that want it but don’t want to spend the coin on higher end solutions.


HDfury have always shied away from it and have commented that they think it's too expensive to get a 4K capable FPGA with HDMI IO, though the (as yet not shipping) new 4K Darbee unit seems to have managed to pack in much of the required HW for a low cost single function box. I've wondered before if they wouldn't have been better off trying to do DTM Instead of a 4K Darbee reboot with that hardware. But it's probably off topic for this thread, and belongs in the VP thread.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> HDfury have always shied away from it and have commented that they think it's too expensive to get a 4K capable FPGA with HDMI IO, though the (as yet not shipping) new 4K Darbee unit seems to have managed to pack in much of the required HW for a low cost single function box. I've wondered before if they wouldn't have been better off trying to do DTM Instead of a 4K Darbee reboot with that hardware. But it's probably off topic for this thread, and belongs in the VP thread.


FWIW, email communication received yesterday indicated that supply chains continue to be disrupted and PXLVision has stopped taking additional pre-orders for the 4K Darbee. Supposedly, enough material was on hand to fulfill pre-orders obtained through a certain (non-specified) date. There was still no indication as to a projected release date, originally planned for 2021 Q3.


----------



## Nattypol

Hello, everyone.

I have a Xbox one X and will try to connect to Lumagen Radiance Pro to JVC NX9.
I know that Lumagen has game mode and JVC NX9 has low latency mode.
Which option is the best setting to get the lowest input lag?
1.Game mode Lumagen on, NX9 low latency off
2.Game mode Lumagen off, NX9 low latency on
3.Game mode Lumagen on, NX9 low latency on

Thank you for your help and support.


----------



## Luckie

HI,
Is it possible to turn off audio output from outputs 2 or 3 on the 5348 ? My Lg tv constantly issues pop-ups 'Audio is not supported ' any time a dts track is playing even though the tv is not required for audio and is muted as the audio only output connects to A/V Processor and handles all things audio - related .

~M~


----------



## dlinsley

Luckie said:


> Is it possible to turn off audio output from outputs 2 or 3 on the 5348 ? My Lg tv constantly issues pop-ups 'Audio is not supported ' any time a dts track is playing even though the tv is not required for audio and is muted as the audio only output connects to A/V Processor and handles all things audio - related .


It should be the same as on my 4446. In the output menu, change the "B" (Both Video and Audio) to "V", OK, then save if it works.


----------



## Luckie

I’ll try that again but when I did it last time it changed to V ok but the next output changed to N (None !) at the same time 😵‍💫

M


----------



## netroamer

Luckie said:


> I’ll try that again but when I did it last time it changed to V ok but the next output changed to N (None !) at the same time 😵‍💫
> 
> M


I have the same issue. The software does not differentiate between the 4 output 4xxx and three output 5xxx systems. When I tried to change mine output 2 changed to audio only and the output screen show NAB for the output configuration. I sent the info to Jim P and am waiting a response.


----------



## jrp

netroamer said:


> I have the same issue. The software does not differentiate between the 4 output 4xxx and three output 5xxx systems. When I tried to change mine output 2 changed to audio only and the output screen show NAB for the output configuration. I sent the info to Jim P and am waiting a response.


I don't believe I have seen your email. Might have gotten caught up in the SPAM filter.

As has been noted, there are a couple issues in the Output Setup Menu for the 5348 and the 5244. I am asking Patrick to review the Output Setup Menu for these after the next Alpha release.

Output 3 on the 5348 and Output 2 on the 5244 should be settable for video only. We will get this into a future release.


----------



## desray2k

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> 
> I have a Xbox one X and will try to connect to Lumagen Radiance Pro to JVC NX9.
> I know that Lumagen has game mode and JVC NX9 has low latency mode.
> Which option is the best setting to get the lowest input lag?
> 1.Game mode Lumagen on, NX9 low latency off
> 2.Game mode Lumagen off, NX9 low latency on
> 3.Game mode Lumagen on, NX9 low latency on
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


Why don't you try it yourself and share your findings with everyone else?


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> I am asking Patrick to review the Output Setup Menu for these after the next Alpha release.


Jim, the next Alpha release coming soon? 😁


----------



## Peule_P

5244? Is that a new model?


----------



## desray2k

Peule_P said:


> 5244? Is that a new model?


Yup


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Nattypol said:


> Hello, everyone.
> 
> I have a Xbox one X and will try to connect to Lumagen Radiance Pro to JVC NX9.
> I know that Lumagen has game mode and JVC NX9 has low latency mode.
> Which option is the best setting to get the lowest input lag?
> 1.Game mode Lumagen on, NX9 low latency off
> 2.Game mode Lumagen off, NX9 low latency on
> 3.Game mode Lumagen on, NX9 low latency on
> 
> Thank you for your help and support.


Option 3 should give you the best result. I use my Xbox SX & 360 with a Sony 790ES. Projector is set with Game mode ON and Lumagen set with both *Game mode* and *Genlock* ON. To reduce input lag for gaming you essentially want to eliminate as much additional processing as possible.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Jim, the next Alpha release coming soon? 😁


Patrick has the debugging work in good shape and is working on the FPGA synthesis. As I mentioned we are hoping for an Alpha release this week or this coming weekend if the synthesis tools cooperate.


----------



## alv

I understand the new software makes a big difference for 4K60. What other resolutions, features will see noticeable improvements? And how noticeable?


----------



## netroamer

jrp said:


> I don't believe I have seen your email. Might have gotten caught up in the SPAM filter.
> 
> As has been noted, there are a couple issues in the Output Setup Menu for the 5348 and the 5244. I am asking Patrick to review the Output Setup Menu for these after the next Alpha release.
> 
> Output 3 on the 5348 and Output 2 on the 5244 should be settable for video only. We will get this into a future release.


Jim, Is there any way to manipulate the current menu to achieve ABV on the 5348 from its' current state of NAB?


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> I understand the new software makes a big difference for 4K60. What other resolutions, features will see noticeable improvements? And how noticeable?


The big improvements are for 4k50 and 4k60 output. This includes interlaced sources, anamorphic 2.40 and 2.35 content, and 16:9 content shown on on a 2.40 screen with the Pro output aspect set to 2.40 or 2.35 (which is a downscale case).

There should be a small improvement for 4k24 16:9 content shown on on a 2.40 screen with the Pro output aspect set to 2.40 or 2.35 (which is a downscale case).


----------



## alv

Thanks, Jim.


----------



## jrp

netroamer said:


> Jim, Is there any way to manipulate the current menu to achieve ABV on the 5348 from its' current state of NAB?


The 5348 Output Setup Menu has a foible in that it shows four outputs (090121 release) when in fact there are three outputs. However, the menu correctly skips over "Enable" column for Output 3. So for the current menu to set Output 3 instead select "Enable" and then under "4."

To do this, in the Output Setup Menu, under "2D:" select ALL for Input, Input-memory, and Input-mode using the arrow keys (or use the shortcut of pressing the digit 4 three times). Then highlight the (now a dash) under the "Enable" word at the far right, and then under "4." Then up arrow until the letters under the "34" under "Enable" says "NV" (no need to change Output 1 and 2. So leave them as dashes for this).

Then Press OK to accept. Then Press EXIT to engage the change. Then do a Save.

After this in the Output setup Menu under "Enable" and then under "1234" you should see "ABNV" if you started from defaults.

This worked for me when I tried it.

==== 

I am asking Patrick to clear up this issue in the 5348 menu, so there are only Output "123," once we release the next Alpha.


----------



## fatherom

Question for the experts.

I keep a microfiber cloth (folded twice, so four thicknesses) on the top of my Lumagen (the air hole exhaust) to keep dust from getting in (my room is a tad dusty). I take this cloth off when I watch anything.

Last night, I forgot to take it off. My basement is cold, the room was 60 degrees before the movie and 63 degrees after the movie. I watched a 2 hour movie with HDR tone mapping. When the movie was over, I realized my error, took the cloth off, and the unit did feel warm in that spot (nothing crazy). After 10 minutes of the unit being off, it was cold again. 

Should I be worried? Could I have damaged anything?

Thanks all

Chris


----------



## Mark Burton

fatherom said:


> Question for the experts.
> 
> I keep a microfiber cloth (folded twice, so four thicknesses) on the top of my Lumagen (the air hole exhaust) to keep dust from getting in (my room is a tad dusty). I take this cloth off when I watch anything.
> 
> Last night, I forgot to take it off. My basement is cold, the room was 60 degrees before the movie and 63 degrees after the movie. I watched a 2 hour movie with HDR tone mapping. When the movie was over, I realized my error, took the cloth off, and the unit did feel warm in that spot (nothing crazy). After 10 minutes of the unit being off, it was cold again.
> 
> Should I be worried? Could I have damaged anything?
> 
> Thanks all
> 
> Chris


I wouldn’t worry about it, you’d have had a overheat message if there was any issue, and even then, as soon as it cools down it’s fine.


----------



## arsenalfc89

If I want to convert 2:35:1 to 16:9 I just use the auto aspect right which then uses zoom? Is there a way to stop the left and right side from being cropped so much when doing this?

Thanks,


----------



## KCAV23

bobof said:


> Seems like an odd position, given that even if an HDMI 2.1 Radiance does appear you won't get any useful HDMI 2.1 features that will knock on into a benefit with an RS4500 - or at least I can't think of any. VRR and QMS would all need display support, and the link to the RS4500 will be constrained to 18G, so there isn't any benefit there. If it's just about having the latest thing, I'd consider holding fire on the RS4500 too, as that represents a far greater investment in non-bleeding-edge tech.


Hi - with a JVC NZ7/RS2100 having 8K-eShift and 2.1 HDMI, if I plan on only using a Kaleidescape Strato & Apple TV 4K for watching content, does the VRR and 2.1 HDMI port have any bearing on what a Radiance Pro 4242 18G can do for picture quality? Whether I wait for a Lumagen with a 2.1 HDMI?


----------



## Clark Burk

KCAV23 said:


> Hi - with a JVC NZ7/RS2100 having 8K-eShift and 2.1 HDMI, if I plan on only using a Kaleidescape Strato & Apple TV 4K for watching content, does the VRR and 2.1 HDMI port have any bearing on what a Radiance Pro 4242 18G can do for picture quality? Whether I wait for a Lumagen with a 2.1 HDMI?


I’d say the 4242 will be good for a long while. Unless you plan on gaming with a Xbox X or a PS5 or use a powerful home computer then the VRR and 2.1 will not matter. That’s not to say that Lumagen won’t at a future time start using 2.1 chips and allow 8k or 4k 120p pass through but I think that will have little benefit for movie watchers.
It will likely be a very long time before any movies are available in 8k. It’s difficult now just finding movies that make good use of 4k.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks…I was playing around with settings this morning…I added a DCR so I felt like tweaking…I changed my low ratio from 34 to 35 as there was a wee bit brightness added from 34 to 35 but not from 35 to 36…I also changed my DynPad from 3 to 1 which makes quite a visual difference in POP and brightness…MaxLight remains unchanged at 500…Is there any downside to these changes? Would these tweaks negatively effect contrast or black levels? I currently run low lamp with 29FC, iris wide open for HDR…Thanks

edit: by setting DynPad to 1, am I inviting toooooo much clipping?


----------



## alv

I have a Sony 295 and it is a little dim. I found changing DynPad to a lower number also helped. Haven't noticed clipping.


----------



## Sittler27

Wanted to confirm that the current situation regarding the new JVC lasers and Lumagen is that you need to run pre-prod sw for the JVC to not have the purple noise "blips" on screen?

Also wanted to confirm that running the newest firmware but using an HDMI splitter (as advised by Kris D.) between the RP and the JVC mostly eliminates the blips while also allowing to use the dynamic laser.

Is this all true still? Am I missing anything?


----------



## jrp

jrp said:


> The 5348 Output Setup Menu has a foible in that it shows four outputs (090121 release) when in fact there are three outputs. However, the menu correctly skips over "Enable" column for Output 3. So for the current menu to set Output 3 instead select "Enable" and then under "4." ....


I thought the 5348 Output Setup Menu in 090121 was the latest when I reported seeing the issue. However, it turns out that the issue of reporting four outputs when there are only three was fixed a while ago but not yet in a public release (090121 being the latest as I write this). The Alpha releases have the correct Output Setup Menu for the 5348, and the 5244 from what I understand.


----------



## jrp

We are very close to the next Alpha release. Pat redesigned some logic for better timing, and he says the FPGA synthesis came out very good timing wise. Pat believes it should work on all units. 

Note: We do sometimes have the synthesis tools say the timing is good and still have a few units that have issues with the FPGA timing. This is rare, but it has happened. There is no way to know until the release is in the wild and being tested on a lot of units.

If this Alpha release works well for the Alpha Test Team, IMO it will become a Beta release.

We appreciate all the great feedback on the initial Alpha release. Pat has addressed the reported issues, and added in the test patterns for this next Alpha release. Initial feedback on the next Alpha (from the only tester I sent it to) is that there are additional visible quality improvements for 4k24 and 4k60 Hertz content. These are small and mostly affect very high quality motion-video (so 4:2:0) test imagery.


----------



## Erod

jrp said:


> We are very close to the next Alpha release. Pat redesigned some logic for better timing, and he says the FPGA synthesis came out very good timing wise. Pat believes it should work on all units.
> 
> Note: We do sometimes have the synthesis tools say the timing is good and still have a few units that have issues with the FPGA timing. This is rare, but it has happened. There is no way to know until the release is in the wild and being tested on a lot of units.
> 
> If this Alpha release works well for the Alpha Test Team, IMO it will become a Beta release.
> 
> We appreciate all the great feedback on the initial Alpha release. Pat has addressed the reported issues, and added in the test patterns for this next Alpha release. Initial feedback on the next Alpha (from the only tester I sent it to) is that there are additional visible quality improvements for 4k24 and 4k60 Hertz content. These are small and mostly affect very high quality motion-video (so 4:2:0) test imagery.


Jim, I'd like to test the new alpha on my system when it's ready. Do I send you an email for that?


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> Jim, I'd like to test the new alpha on my system when it's ready. Do I send you an email for that?


If you want the next Alpha release you can send an email to lumagen.com support asking for it. I will then add your email to the list.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> We are very close to the next Alpha release. Pat redesigned some logic for better timing, and he says the FPGA synthesis came out very good timing wise. *Pat believes it should work on all units.*
> 
> Note: We do sometimes have the synthesis tools say the timing is good and still have a few units that have issues with the FPGA timing. This is rare, but it has happened. There is no way to know until the release is in the wild and being tested on a lot of units.
> 
> *If this Alpha release works well for the Alpha Test Team, IMO it will become a Beta release.*
> 
> We appreciate all the great feedback on the initial Alpha release. Pat has addressed the reported issues, and added in the test patterns for this next Alpha release. Initial feedback on the next Alpha (from the only tester I sent it to) is that there are additional visible quality improvements for 4k24 and 4k60 Hertz content. These are small and mostly affect very high quality motion-video (so 4:2:0) test imagery.


That really gets me excited!


----------



## alv

What does the FPGA do?


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> If you want the next Alpha release you can send an email to lumagen.com support asking for it. I will then add your email to the list.


Sent my request to you


----------



## Kris Deering

alv said:


> What does the FPGA do?


The FPGA is the processor, so it does everything.


----------



## Nima

Curious observation: I had changed my JVC NZ MPC to Graph Mode 2 and set Enhance to 0 in order to do all sharpening in the Radiance (set to 3 for 4k sources).

I have no more blips and flashes. Don't know if this is related but knock on wood!


----------



## Kris Deering

Nima said:


> Curious observation: I had changed my JVC NZ MPC to Graph Mode 2 and set Enhance to 0 in order to do all sharpening in the Radiance (set to 3 for 4k sources).
> 
> I have no more blips and flashes. Don't know if this is related but knock on wood!


Unlikely it fixed anything. Give it time. When I installed the Dr HDMI 8K inline thing they went away for over two weeks and then came back fairly often.


----------



## Mike_WI

alv said:


> What does the FPGA do?


FPGA = field-programmable gate array








Field-programmable gate array - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







Kris Deering said:


> The FPGA is the processor, so it does everything.


----------



## jrp

I just sent a link to Alpha Test Release #2 (030222) to the Alpha Testers by email. Testers give it time to propagate through the Ether and if you do not see it, check your SPAM folder(s). If you signed up and still do not see it, please email me at lumagen.com support.

As status for everyone:

The Alpha #2 release looks great, and even better than the first Alpha release. Patrick was able to address all reported issues. It adds test patterns back in as well.

There is an issue with 1080i sources. There is a "glitch" for 1080i sources from time to time that I thought might be FPGA timing. Since the FPGA timing is very good on Alpha #2, I now suspect a "FIFO overrun" case. Patrick has reproduced the issue and will get it sorted.

I am being asked about when to expect a Beta release. If it was not for the 1080i issue, this would have been the Beta candidate. I believe we should have the 1080i issue sorted, and a new FPGA in an Alpha #3 release within a week. Then if that passes muster, and once we have a full speed FPGA, I expect that to be the Beta candidate.


----------



## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> Unlikely it fixed anything. Give it time. When I installed the Dr HDMI 8K inline thing they went away for over two weeks and then came back fairly often.





Nima said:


> Curious observation: I had changed my JVC NZ MPC to Graph Mode 2 and set Enhance to 0 in order to do all sharpening in the Radiance (set to 3 for 4k sources).
> 
> I have no more blips and flashes. Don't know if this is related but knock on wood!


Is this referring to the "blip" issue with the JVC NZ line and the Lumagen?

If so, are you referring that even that HDMI splitter solution had failed with the newest firmware and that you are recommending we continue to run pre-prod firmware on the JVC in order to avoid the "blip" issue completely?


----------



## Citation4444

jrp said:


> I just sent a link to Alpha Test Release #2 (030222) to the Alpha Testers by email. Testers give it time to propagate through the Ether and if you do not see it, check your SPAM folder(s). If you signed up and still do not see it, please email me at lumagen.com support.
> 
> As status for everyone:
> 
> The Alpha #2 release looks great, and even better than the first Alpha release. Patrick was able to address all reported issues. It adds test patterns back in as well.
> 
> There is an issue with 1080i sources. There is a "glitch" for 1080i sources from time to time that I thought might be FPGA timing. Since the FPGA timing is very good on Alpha #2, I now suspect a "FIFO overrun" case. Patrick has reproduced the issue and will get it sorted.
> 
> I am being asked about when to expect a Beta release. If it was not for the 1080i issue, this would have been the Beta candidate. I believe we should have the 1080i issue sorted, and a new FPGA in an Alpha #3 release within a week. Then if that passes muster, and once we have a full speed FPGA, I expect that to be the Beta candidate.


I watched for several hours tonight on my 5348, and must say this Alpha Test Release #2 looks great. I'm downscaling 4K to 1080p and auto aspecting, and the image is very smooth, clean, and detailed. The darker areas seem much improved as well. Subscripts are much better, too. From what I've seen so far, this is a winner! No issues at all. Good job Lumagen!


----------



## woofer

Citation4444 said:


> I'm downscaling 4K to 1080p and auto aspecting, and the image is *very smooth*, clean


Interesting observation....


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> Is this referring to the "blip" issue with the JVC NZ line and the Lumagen?
> 
> If so, are you referring that even that HDMI splitter solution had failed with the newest firmware and that you are recommending we continue to run pre-prod firmware on the JVC in order to avoid the "blip" issue completely?


Yes


----------



## desray2k

Not sure if it happens to anyone but for my RP 4242, there appears to be some scaling issue on the right with some IMAX enhanced content in Disney Plus using the latest Alpha 2 release. Yes, I'm referring to those Marvel movies that annoyingly changes aspect ratio between a typical 2.35:1/2.40:1 content and switching to IMAX aspect of 1.90:1. I've tried to enable/disable the sticky aspect ratio override but to no avail. The aspect ratio kept changing. I have reported to Patrick and Jim in the beta support email. I will be following up this issue with them. Some screenshots of the abovementioned scaling aspect ratio issue.

















PS: I'm glad this version of the alpha release finally worked on my device's FPGA as previously, it was totally unusable when my display resolution is at 4K60. Jim is right, this version of the release should work on most, if not all the current models. Good job Jim and Patrick!


----------



## alv

With AppleTV, going back and forth between programs and navigating the apps cause handshaking delays. I don't mind them for starting programs but is there a way to rid them for just switching between navigating and watching?


----------



## Citation4444

I am not able to use the LP 5348 as a pattern generator with ColourSpace with the Alpha 2 firmware. ColourSpace connects ok as I can upload 3DLuts previously generated. Just can't use it as a pattern generator. Reverting back to 090121 firmware fixes the issue. I have reported this issue to Lumagen.


----------



## EVH78

desray2k said:


> Not sure if it happens to anyone but for my RP 4242, there appears to be some scaling issue on the right with some IMAX enhanced content in Disney Plus using the latest Alpha 2 release. Yes, I'm referring to those Marvel movies that annoyingly changes aspect ratio between a typical 2.35:1/2.40:1 content and switching to IMAX aspect of 1.90:1. I've tried to enable/disable the sticky aspect ratio override but to no avail. The aspect ratio kept changing. I have reported to Patrick and Jim in the beta support email. I will be following up this issue with them. Some screenshots of the abovementioned scaling aspect ratio issue.
> View attachment 3251125
> 
> View attachment 3251126
> 
> 
> PS: I'm glad this version of the alpha release finally worked on my device's FPGA as previously, it was totally unusable when my display resolution is at 4K60. Jim is right, this version of the release should work on most, if not all the current models. Good job Jim and Patrick!


Yes, same here. Not on all sources though..


----------



## Erod

Had a chance to look at some different material last night, and I focused mostly on 4K/1080p 60Hz streaming content, which is where this update apparently was mostly aiming. 

Definitely an improvement in resolution of the image. Skies and solid colors are smoother and images have more clarity and detail overall. There also seems to be a slightly better brightness to the image, which improves contrast.

My only concern at the moment, and I need to test further, is that there seems to be a bit more crush in dark scenes, especially as it relates to someone wearing black or dark clothing in a dark scene. The Lumagen has always been able to tonemap detail in those conditions, and I'm wondering if that is less so now. 

I'm unsure if this is just a result of the better contrast, and perhaps I'm misremembering these images from the previous firmware version. I may reinstall the previous version to compare, but I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed some crush that didn't exist before.

Either way, I'd keep this version and adjust accordingly because the image improvement isn't just slight. It's very noticeable. It has even improved color depth in HDR content as well, which was already terrific. 

Well done, Patrick and Jim!


----------



## jrp

Comments on possible changes to DTM and processing due to the Alpha release:

We made one change to DTM, but this should not affect most content. The issue was that some sources were reporting a "MaxMon" (the maximum light output capability of the mastering monitor) of 1000, but the content frame MaxCLL (the maximum data values for a given frame) was over 2500. We had been using the MaxMon to limit the padding in DTM since if the maximum the monitor can accurately output is 1000, the thinking is the post production team would limit content to that maximum. The case we actually saw looks like the player getting the MaxMon incorrect and reporting 1000 when it should have been reporting 4000.

So we have changed how MaxMon plays into the DTM. For most scenes this will not have any affect. If you have a player that had previous reported a MaxMon of 1000, but MaxCLL was much higher, you would see the a few scenes get somewhat darker since the transfer function is (using the above example) mapping not from 0 to 1000 (the MaxMon reported value), but instead 0 to 2500 (the MaxCLL reported value). This has the benefit of eliminating the clipping that an incorrect MaxMon caused.

If you see a change with DTM this could be the reason.

=== 

Other than this change the "levels" should all be the same in in the pipeline enhancement release, but with additional precision. This precision might show as improved scaling detail (up or down).

So for SDR content, you can see more details, but the details will be at the same level with more precision.


----------



## desray2k

Erod said:


> My only concern at the moment, and I need to test further, is that there seems to be a bit more crush in dark scenes, especially as it relates to someone wearing black or dark clothing in a dark scene. The Lumagen has always been able to tonemap detail in those conditions, and I'm wondering if that is less so now.
> 
> I'm unsure if this is just a result of the better contrast, and perhaps I'm misremembering these images from the previous firmware version. I may reinstall the previous version to compare, but I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed some crush that didn't exist before.


Which movie(s) are you testing? I'll check it out to confirm.


----------



## Erod

Mostly with SDR streams like The Last Kingdom or other SDR Netflix content. 

Again, not bad, just different. This update is really impactful.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Comments on possible changes to DTM and processing due to the Alpha release:
> 
> We made one change to DTM, but this should not affect most content. The issue was that some sources were reporting a "MaxMon" (the maximum light output capability of the mastering monitor) of 1000, but the content frame MaxCLL (the maximum data values for a given frame) was over 2500. We had been using the MaxMon to limit the padding in DTM since if the maximum the monitor can accurately output is 1000, the thinking is the post production team would limit content to that maximum. The case we actually saw looks like the player getting the MaxMon incorrect and reporting 1000 when it should have been reporting 4000.
> 
> So we have changed how MaxMon plays into the DTM. For most scenes this will not have any affect. If you have a player that had previous reported a MaxMon of 1000, but MaxCLL was much higher, you would see the a few scenes get somewhat darker since the transfer function is (using the above example) mapping not from 0 to 1000 (the MaxMon reported value), but instead 0 to 2500 (the MaxCLL reported value). This has the benefit of eliminating the clipping that an incorrect MaxMon caused.
> 
> If you see a change with DTM this could be the reason.
> 
> ===
> 
> Other than this change the "levels" should all be the same in in the pipeline enhancement release, but with additional precision. This precision might show as improved scaling detail (up or down).
> 
> So for SDR content, you can see more details, but the details will be at the same level with more precision.


Hi Jim, I understand the reasons you mentioned about changing the reporting from Maxmon to MaxCLL of the source itself to prevent clipping due to the incorrect Maxmon value. Is there a movie that can "showcase" this benefit so that users can better appreciate the rationale behind this change?


----------



## desray2k

Erod said:


> Mostly with SDR streams like The Last Kingdom or other SDR Netflix content.
> 
> Again, not bad, just different. *This update is really impactful.*


I can't agree more with you.


----------



## chasiliff

General Lumagen RP question: HDR movies from Vudu, Netflix, Amazon and AppleTV streamed through my Apple TV most recent generation to my JVC RS3100 are awesome. Bright, excellent secular highlights on medium laser. When I stream Apple TV+ shows, produced by Apple, they always seem darker and I frequently revert back to SDR.

Of course, the SDR is so impressive that I often think it’s HDR with newer material.😁

Do Apple TV+ shows stream with HDR nit/format information? Should I change my Lumagen to revert to 1000 nits rather than 4000 when data not available? Think it will make a difference? Are these shows just dark and I’m out of luck? Thanks.


----------



## desray2k

chasiliff said:


> General Lumagen RP question: HDR movies from Vudu, Netflix, Amazon and AppleTV streamed through my Apple TV most recent generation to my JVC RS3100 are awesome. Bright, excellent secular highlights on medium laser. When I stream Apple TV+ shows, produced by Apple, they always seem darker and I frequently revert back to SDR.
> 
> Of course, the SDR is so impressive that I often think it’s HDR with newer material.😁
> 
> Do Apple TV+ shows stream with HDR nit/format information? Should I change my Lumagen to revert to 1000 nits rather than 4000 when data not available? Think it will make a difference? Are these shows just dark and I’m out of luck? Thanks.


I think that's what Jim and Patrick tries to improve on with their DTM algorithm in this latest Alpha release.


----------



## Kris Deering

The HDR change was made because there were some movies on the Kaleidescape service that have faulty metadata. This is rarely an issue with discs or streaming services (or even K). The faulty data was creating clipping issues with some titles (most were reporting the Harry Potter movies). But even this was just a handful of cases and nothing that most here should concern themselves with. If you were watching movies before that had noticeable white clipping, you may try those with this new firmware to see if it resolved it. As always, if artifacts are prominent and catch your attention, report them to support at Lumagen. Putting stuff on this board doesn't help as much as just telling Lumagen directly. Same goes for Alpha feedback. This board is not really the proper place to discuss Alpha firmware issues/comments because the majority of people here are not even looking at it so they confuse "issues" that have NOTHING to do with public release. It would be more appropriate if people want to discuss among themselves Alpha firmware stuff by creating an Alpha firmware thread. But again, those comments should be going DIRECTLY to Lumagen and not a board hoping Lumagen is looking at it.


----------



## desray2k

Hi Kris, I agreed that there is a proper channel to send our feedbacks to Lumagen support and I'm pretty sure everyone did. This is a dedicated forum for Lumagen users and everyone has the right to post what they want as long as it is of relevance. I don't think anyone of us is out of the line. Personally I think we should let Jim decide if he is comfortable with members posting their feedback here while concurrently providing valauble feedback to the Lumagen support. Besides I'm pretty sure some of the members whom aren't on the Alpha testing group would also like some first hand user feedback on the progress of the alpha firmwares. It helps to create awareness and give them something to look forward to. If you read most of the comments here, we are all giving very positive feedbacks for these Alpha releases and even validating some of the improvements... All I see is a positive affirmation.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

desray2k said:


> I'm pretty sure some of the members whom aren't on the Alpha testing group would also like some first hand user feedback on the progress of the alpha firmwares. It helps to create awareness and give them something to look forward to.


+1 for this. I appreciate the insights into upcoming improvements and the development roadmap.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> The HDR change was made because there were some movies on the Kaleidescape service that have faulty metadata. This is rarely an issue with discs or streaming services (or even K). The faulty data was creating clipping issues with some titles (most were reporting the Harry Potter movies). But even this was just a handful of cases and nothing that most here should concern themselves with. If you were watching movies before that had noticeable white clipping, you may try those with this new firmware to see if it resolved it. As always, if artifacts are prominent and catch your attention, report them to support at Lumagen. Putting stuff on this board doesn't help as much as just telling Lumagen directly. Same goes for Alpha feedback. This board is not really the proper place to discuss Alpha firmware issues/comments because the majority of people here are not even looking at it so they confuse "issues" that have NOTHING to do with public release. It would be more appropriate if people want to discuss among themselves Alpha firmware stuff by creating an Alpha firmware thread. But again, those comments should be going DIRECTLY to Lumagen and not a board hoping Lumagen is looking at it.


Why not both? Right away you're getting fresh and then wagging your finger at us, there's no crime here


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Why not both? Right away you're getting fresh and then wagging your finger at us, there's no crime here


There is a fine line here. I specifically requested the Alpha testers report issues directly to Lumagen (I assumed people would understand this to mean to not post on AVS Forum about bugs). This should be considered standard practice for an Alpha level release for _any_ product. I did not make Alpha testers sign an NDA since I thought it reasonable general comments would be posted (e.g. I do/don't see an improvement with XXX, etc.).

Bugs with the Alpha releases do not apply to the vast majority of Radiance Pro owners and there is a chance of confusion when they are posted here. On the other hand, as long as it is clear the issue is with a "non-public Alpha release," it likely is not an issue.

I am happy to see posts on what the results are with the Alpha release, more so since they are so positive. I am not offended by posts concerning bugs, but I do think they are better left to direct communication with Lumagen. It was my intent to post comments about the state of the Alpha release for public consumption, as I have already done, and if needed send out emails to the Alpha Test Team with specific bug status. I believe this is a better approach.

I am not going to stop Alpha testers from posting, but I do ask they consider whether they should communicate directly with Lumagen concerning bug reports, and not post bug reports here. If you are an Alpha tester and insist on posting bug reports here, so be it. I will not try to stop you. Please use your own good judgement on this.

================================================== 

Alpha Status Update (as noted above, this does _not_ apply to the latest public release):

The Alpha #2 release is working very well. There are one or two systems that have a video drop issue that we are looking into.

There have been two reported bugs for 1080i content. Pat has fixes for both. As I have pointed out, the improvements for 1080i content are not intended to be final. However, in my testing with 1080i60 content, I am not seeing any significant issues. We have a report from Europe that there are some issues with with deinterlacing 1080i50 content (this is not new, just not addressed in the Alpha release. The issue seems to be worse with SkyTV, versus 1080i50 streaming or 1080i50 Bluray).

We are looking into a "right edge noise" issue for 16:9 content on a 2.35 or 2.40 screen setup.

There are a couple test pattern issues Pat is looking into. These of course do not affect watching content.

We just today received a NLS bug report. This affects scaling quality for NLS (only) and we are adding it to the bug list.

If memory serves, these are it.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> There is a fine line here. I specifically requested the Alpha testers report issues directly to Lumagen (I assumed people would understand this to mean to not post on AVS Forum about bugs). This should be considered standard practice for an Alpha level release for _any_ product. I did not make Alpha testers sign an NDA since I thought it reasonable general comments would be posted (e.g. I do/don't see an improvement with XXX, etc.).
> 
> Bugs with the Alpha releases do not apply to the vast majority of Radiance Pro owners and there is a chance of confusion when they are posted here. On the other hand, as long as it is clear the issue is with a "non-public Alpha release," it likely is not an issue.
> 
> I am happy to see posts on what the results are with the Alpha release, more so since they are so positive. I am not offended by posts concerning bugs, but I do think they are better left to direct communication with Lumagen. It was my intent to post comments about the state of the Alpha release for public consumption, as I have already done, and if needed send out emails to the Alpha Test Team with specific bug status. I believe this is a better approach.
> 
> I am not going to stop Alpha testers from posting, but I do ask they consider whether they should communicate directly with Lumagen concerning bug reports, and not post bug reports here. If you are an Alpha tester and insist on posting bug reports here, so be it. I will not try to stop you. Please use your own good judgement on this.
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> Alpha Status Update (as noted above, this does _not_ apply to the latest public release):
> 
> The Alpha #2 release is working very well. There are one or two systems that have a video drop issue that we are looking into.
> 
> There have been two reported bugs for 1080i content. Pat has fixes for both. As I have pointed out, the improvements for 1080i content are not intended to be final. However, in my testing with 1080i60 content, I am not seeing any significant issues. We have a report from Europe that there are some issues with with deinterlacing 1080i50 content (this is not new, just not addressed in the Alpha release. The issue seems to be worse with SkyTV, versus 1080i50 streaming or 1080i50 Bluray).
> 
> We are looking into a "right edge noise" issue for 16:9 content on a 2.35 or 2.40 screen setup.
> 
> There are a couple test pattern issues Pat is looking into. These of course do not affect watching content.
> 
> We just today received a NLS bug report. This affects scaling quality for NLS (only) and we are adding it to the bug list.
> 
> If memory serves, these are it.


Thanks Jim for speaking up and clarifying the way forward.


----------



## alv

What is NLS?


----------



## Chicagobear1

alv said:


> What is NLS?


Non Linear Stretch


----------



## alv

Thanks. Don't use that one.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

alv said:


> What is NLS?


BTW I just started rewatching Game of Thrones through the LRP for first time. I turned on NLS on my 2.35 screen and was blown away by how more immersive the GOT experience was.


----------



## blake

How do you turn off NLS for a given aspect ratio ? 

Once I select it, even if I force another aspect ratio and come back, it is still on ex 2.00NLS. Tried hitting NLS button and it just turns it on (ie doesn’t toggle). 

Seems the only way it stopping and restarting the content.


----------



## desray2k

blake said:


> How do you turn off NLS for a given aspect ratio ?
> 
> Once I select it, even if I force another aspect ratio and come back, it is still on ex 2.00NLS. Tried hitting NLS button and it just turns it on (ie doesn’t toggle).
> 
> Seems the only way it stopping and restarting the content.


If my memory serves me right, you can disable NLS under Input>Options>Auto Aspect Ratio>and disable NLS.


----------



## blake

desray2k said:


> If my memory serves me right, you can disable NLS under Input>Options>Auto Aspect Ratio>and disable NLS.


will this permanently disable it ? I would like it available, but just be able to toggle it on/off while watching given content. 

I am using a control system so was hoping there was a discreet command for nls off, as there is for nls on.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

blake said:


> will this permanently disable it ? I would like it available, but just be able to toggle it on/off while watching given content.
> 
> I am using a control system so was hoping there was a discreet command for nls off, as there is for nls on.


Press the remote button for the 16:9 aspect will turn off NLS.


----------



## Erod

Question for Jim:

With the new MaxMon baseline you're using for the new update in development, what setting do you believe will be best for the DynPad?


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> Question for Jim:
> 
> With the new MaxMon baseline you're using for the new update in development, what setting do you believe will be best for the DynPad?


It hasn’t changed anything with the Pad. 3 is still the baseline. You can experiment with other settings but as you go toward 1 there is a more likely chance of seeing clipping in extreme transitions.


----------



## Mikesterz

I noticed in my setup that when switching to SDRP3 output to projector, the colors look more accurate and the overall image looks better than outputting SDR2020 even though my projector goes to full rec 2020. I’m thinking it could be a settings issue with my projector or the Lumagen. I’m still waiting on a professional calibration but wanted to ask what the difference is on the Lumagen between the two. I’m assuming SDR2020 just allows more colors to pass through but maybe there’s more to it than that. I’m using the 5348.


----------



## Nima

Which projector do you have that allows full BT2020? There are only a handfull which can cover full BT2020 gamut.


----------



## Mikesterz

Nima said:


> Which projector do you have that allows full BT2020? There are only a handfull which can cover full BT2020 gamut.


RGB laser projectors go over 96% Rec2020.


----------



## fatherom

I should probably know this, but what is the preferred way to make DTM HDR highlights have more impact? (I'm assuming by lowering the overall brightness level (and adjusting other params), so highlights have more "room" to make an impact when they come along?) - I'd like to have a bit more 'pop' in my image.

Thanks all.


----------



## SJHT

For those setting Lipsync, the Envy folks have a great guide for their processors (worth a read for anyone as it explains AVRs with auto lip-sync, etc).



https://madvrenvy.com/wp-content/uploads/Envy-Lip-Sync-Guide.pdf?r=100



Here is a good example:

_"There are many ways to evaluate your lip sync setting to see if it is set ideally. Some people prefer test patterns for this, such as on the Spears and Munsil HDR Benchmark disc. Others prefer to test it with movies by watching the actor’s lips.
One great test scene to evaluate and fine tune lip sync (if necessary) is the last chapter of A Star is Born. The camera is zoomed in on Lady Gaga's lips while she sings for several minutes. This gives plenty of time to watch and adjust, without having to keep rewinding.
Another great test scene is the start of the first car race in Ready Player One. There is a flare that goes up and then arcs down, until it explodes into a starburst with a loud "boom". While the flare is falling, it makes a whistling noise that changes in frequency as it drops, helping you gage when exactly it nears the point of exploding. If everything is set properly, the boom from the explosion and the starburst should hit perfectly at the same time. The whistling is also helpful in timing in your head when to expect the boom and starburst."_

I know that Kaleidescape is working on adding lip-sync test to their movie store. No confirmed date, but will be a really great addition. SJ


----------



## HTTR17

fatherom said:


> I should probably know this, but what is the preferred way to make DTM HDR highlights have more impact? (I'm assuming by lowering the overall brightness level (and adjusting other params), so highlights have more "room" to make an impact when they come along?) - I'd like to have a bit more 'pop' in my image.
> 
> Thanks all.


I'm interested in this also. I tried setting it based on scenes from the meg and the revenant. But was having a hard time figuring out how it worked.


----------



## jrp

Sorry to disagree on what to use to adjust lip-sync, but I would not use lips, or a distant explosion, to do lip-sync adjustments.

Lips do not necessarily move at the same time the sound changes. Think of the case where the singer is prepositioning his/her lips before starting the note. Even when the lips and note change matches, it is not a visually precise time when compared to mechanically generated sounds.

For the distant explosion case, in the real world the sound would lag the visible explosion. Hard to judge by how much when watching, and certainly lip-sync should not be set so the sound happens exactly when you see the visible but distant explosion.

I use the pluck of a guitar-string, or harp-string, for a real-world lip sync test. One can precisely see the "pluck" versus the sound. Other near-by mechanical sounds (hammer strike, door slam, car crash, etc.) could be used instead. However, I prefer an ongoing stream of events to look at. The guitar or harp pluck provides this more continuous feedback.

I also use the Spears and Muncil lip-sync test. However, note that if you have it in PCM mode, make sure your audio processor matches the input to output delay for all audio formats or you might find it is not right for ATMOS. The Trinnov Altitude can match the delay for all audio formats, which simplifies getting lip-sync right.


----------



## bjorg

Regarding the DynPad setting, are there any recommended scenes to determine personal preference. For example, a scene where DynPad 1 causes some crushing because of a rapid brightness transition. That would help me understand how loose or tight a setting I would prefer.

Also, would it be correct to assume that the brighter the display, the lower the DynPad setting can be? The reasoning being that the DTM doesn't have to work as hard on a 1,000+ nit display. If not correct, could you elaborate?


----------



## fatherom

fatherom said:


> I should probably know this, but what is the preferred way to make DTM HDR highlights have more impact? (I'm assuming by lowering the overall brightness level (and adjusting other params), so highlights have more "room" to make an impact when they come along?) - I'd like to have a bit more 'pop' in my image.
> 
> Thanks all.


@jrp would you be so kind? (not sure if you saw it) - thanks so much


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> I should probably know this, but what is the preferred way to make DTM HDR highlights have more impact? (I'm assuming by lowering the overall brightness level (and adjusting other params), so highlights have more "room" to make an impact when they come along?) - I'd like to have a bit more 'pop' in my image.
> 
> Thanks all.


With a projector at about 100 nits, it is difficult to make the highlights as impactful as I think you are trying to get. It would be easier if you have around 250 to 300 nits, but still to me projectors are more about better black level detail given they cannot produce as much light as a TV.

Here are some things to try to make the highlights more impactful:

- Raise MaxLight setting. This will darken low and mid-intensity content, but the highlight brightness should not be affected as long as the highlight is in the range of MaxLight or above.

- Increase the effective Gamma from 2.4 to perhaps 2.6 (thinking in SDR terms since we recommend calibrating to Gamma = 2.4 because the Pro outputs HDR in a SDR container). You can do this with the Gamma-factor in the Radiance Pro CMS. Increasing Gamma will darken low and mid intensities, but again the highlights should not be affected. Gamma-factor can affect black level. So after setting the Gamma_factor, set your Black level as I discuss in the setup slide set. If you are at Gamma = 2.4 and want a Gamma = 2.6 you set Gamma_factor to 2.6/2.4 = 1.08. Save your changes.

There is only so much you can do given the maximum brightness of projectors because you want mid-intensities to look bright enough. However, you can try trading these parameters against each other and see what you like the best.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> With a projector at about 100 nits, it is difficult to make the highlights as impactful as I think you are trying to get. It would be easier if you have around 250 to 300 nits, but still to me projectors are more about better black level detail given they cannot produce as much light as a TV.
> 
> Here are some things to try to make the highlights more impactful:
> 
> - Raise MaxLight setting. This will darken low and mid-intensity content, but the highlight brightness should not be affected as long as the highlight is in the range of MaxLight or above.
> 
> - Increase the effective Gamma from 2.4 to perhaps 2.6 (thinking in SDR terms since we recommend calibrating to Gamma = 2.4 because the Pro outputs HDR in a SDR container). You can do this with the Gamma-factor in the Radiance Pro CMS. Increasing Gamma will darken low and mid intensities, but again the highlights should not be affected. Gamma-factor can affect black level. So after setting the Gamma_factor, set your Black level as I discuss in the setup slide set. If you are at Gamma = 2.4 and want a Gamma = 2.6 you set Gamma_factor to 2.6/2.4 = 1.08. Save your changes.
> 
> There is only so much you can do given the maximum brightness of projectors because you want mid-intensities to look bright enough. However, you can try trading these parameters against each other and see what you like the best.


As always, Jim, thank you...super helpful.

What/where is the most recent version of the setup slide set? Thanks again.


----------



## bjorg

On Gamma, is 2.4 recommended for all content (SDR & HDR) or just HDR-in-a-SDR container?


----------



## bjorg

Took me a while to find, but I think this is the post with the setup slides referenced by Jim. I was not able to find them on the site.

(38) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 621 | AVS Forum


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> On Gamma, is 2.4 recommended for all content (SDR & HDR) or just HDR-in-a-SDR container?


If your projector is in the range of around 106 nits or less where one calibration can work for both SDR and HDR content, then you can use Gamma 2.4 for SDR and HDR content. Calibrate CMS1 set to Colorspace = SDR2020 (for HDR), and then copy to CMS0 (for SDR).

If you do a calibration for HDR and SDR independently, you can consider Bt.1886 Gamma knowing that the underlying Gamma for Bt.1886 is 2.4, but with an adjustment for black-level. If you have an excellent black level, like the ones produced by current JVC projectors, and some others, the Bt.1886 is essentially the same as Gamma = 2.4 for practical purposes.

Note: As I pointed out in a previous post, some prefer a slightly higher Gamma than 2.4. I go back and forth between a Gamma of 2.4 and 2.6 for our RS4500 projector. I believe this is one of the "personal preference" items everyone can choose for themselves. Do this knowing that the "HDR in an SDR container" math is designed for a Gamma of 2.4. However, for SDR I have always oscillated between a Gamma of 2.4 and 2.6, from time to time.


----------



## jrp

Here is the current version of the Radiance Pro setup slide set I referenced.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> If your projector is in the range of around 106 nits or less where one calibration can work for both SDR and HDR content, then you can use Gamma 2.4 for SDR and HDR content. Calibrate CMS1 set to Colorspace = SDR2020 (for HDR), and then copy to CMS0 (for SDR).
> 
> If you do a calibration for HDR and SDR independently, you can consider Bt.1886 Gamma knowing that the underlying Gamma for Bt.1886 is 2.4, but with an adjustment for black-level. If you have an excellent black level, like the ones produced by current JVC projectors, and some others, the Bt.1886 is essentially the same as Gamma = 2.4 for practical purposes.
> 
> Note: As I pointed out in a previous post, some prefer a slightly higher Gamma than 2.4. I go back and forth between a Gamma of 2.4 and 2.6 for our RS4500 projector. I believe this is one of the "personal preference" items everyone can choose for themselves. Do this knowing that the "HDR in an SDR container" math is designed for a Gamma of 2.4. However, for SDR I have always oscillated between a Gamma of 2.4 and 2.6, from time to time.


I don't trust the HDR mapping of my display, but the display does achieve about a 1,000 nits. Unfortunately, I can only set Gamma to 2.2 or 2.6 directly. However, as I just learned a few posts ago, the RadiancePro can adjust the gamma level itself as well to achieve 2.4. That's something I want to play with. Just curious if I should do so for both HDR and SDR content.


----------



## Clark Burk

I’m probably not understanding something but wouldn’t the gamma setting on the projector conflict with any changes in gamma on the LRP?


----------



## DigitalAV

bjorg said:


> Regarding the DynPad setting, are there any recommended scenes to determine personal preference. For example, a scene where DynPad 1 causes some crushing because of a rapid brightness transition. That would help me understand how loose or tight a setting I would prefer.
> 
> Also, would it be correct to assume that the brighter the display, the lower the DynPad setting can be? The reasoning being that the DTM doesn't have to work as hard on a 1,000+ nit display. If not correct, could you elaborate?


One go-to scene is the very beginning of The Meg when entering the hatch there's steam with a red glow behind it. DynPad will clearly show how much bright color detail you can achieve (The Meg is from a 4000nit master), but the trade-off seems to be the higher your DynPad setting, the dimmer the overall picture can be. So, I think the brighter the display, the _higher_ the DynPad setting can be.

I personally don't have a lot of contrast with which to play and am starved for lumens on a big ALR screen in my living room with ambient light, so I've arrived at a DynPad setting of 2 as a personal preference to keep my overall image on the bright side. I imagine dedicated, light-controlled environments would end up with a setting around 5 depending on screen size.


----------



## alv

How is alpha 2 going? Well enough for a beta release soon?


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> I don't trust the HDR mapping of my display, but the display does achieve about a 1,000 nits. Unfortunately, I can only set Gamma to 2.2 or 2.6 directly. However, as I just learned a few posts ago, the Radiance Pro can adjust the gamma level itself as well to achieve 2.4. That's something I want to play with. Just curious if I should do so for both HDR and SDR content.


You can use 2.2 in the display, and then use the Radiance Pro Gamma Factor to change the "net Gamma" to 2.4, for SDR content. If the display selection for Gamma = 2.2 is accurate (many are not), to make the net Gamma 2.4 set the Gamma_factor = 2.4/2.2 = 1.09. Save your changes.

SDR content Bt.1886 is Gamma = 2.4. Historically Gamma = 2.2 for SDR content has been the norm. At this point we recommend Gamma 2.4 for both SDR and "HDR in an SDR container." 

To clarify something in my previous post, the Bt.1886 is specifically for SDR. However, you can calibrate "HDR in an SDR container" (which is done in SDR mode in and out) to Bt.1886 if you have a display that does not have great black levels and see if it looks better to you than a straight Gamma = 2.4. It might since Bt.1886 compensates for the black level and a straight Gamma 2.4 does not.

====

As an aside, I think a large display at 1000 nits is to bright for the human visual system to deal well with for video content. The issue is going from a very dark scene to a very bright scene would be blinding, and you would have to look away. I already have this effect when running the Lumagen theater at 100 nits. For a larger display I think 600 nits is more reasonable as a maximum brightness. Likely others disagree, and you get to choose for yourself. Setting Max Light to 4000, would reserve more brightness for highlights with this very bright display. You can also set Dyn Pad to 5 or 6 to give each scene more headroom. 

The good news is you can increase the Gamma (maybe in the 2.6 range) and set max light to maybe 2000 or even 4000, and Dyn Pad = 6, with this display to moderate normal video levels and use the extra brightness for highlights.

Note, with a Max Light of 4000, you will maintain color saturation to higher scene brightness levels. You can check out the HSL color model to see why. The model shows you can maintain good color saturation up to about 50% of the maximum light output capability. By using the higher Max Light you can preserve more color saturation for very bright scenes.

Try some of these changes to see what you prefer.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> I’m probably not understanding something but wouldn’t the gamma setting on the projector conflict with any changes in gamma on the LRP?


They do affect each other. However if, for example, the projector is set to Gamma = 2.2, and it is accurate, using the Gamma_factor set to 2.4/2.2 = 1.08 will give you an accurate Gamma of 2.4 net of both the display and the Radiance Pro.

As I like to say "it's just math" and in this case the projector Gamma can be accurately adjusted using the Lumagen Gamma_factor.


----------



## MOberhardt

What is the recommended optic cable for a 10m run? I know Jim and Kris have posted but not having any luck on a thread search


----------



## raullopez1234

I've been away from this thread for about a year, not informed of upcoming future firmwares or past updates. Recently bought a x950 and I might buy a lumagen and need some information concerning this and if lumagen will get updated HDMI 2.1 chips.


----------



## appelz

MOberhardt said:


> What is the recommended optic cable for a 10m run? I know Jim and Kris have posted but not having any luck on a thread search


RuiPro - Least expensive. In my experience, sensitive to heat. If I use them in a hush box, they seem to fail once a year.
AVPro BulletTrain 5K AOC - Good performer at reasonable price
Tributaries Titan UHDV - My "Well, I _know_ this cable will work" solution

I mostly use AVPro and Ethereal Velox for 3m passive source to Lumagen interconnects.


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> How is alpha 2 going? Well enough for a beta release soon?


Alpha #2 is looking very good. I have an engineering version of Alpha #3 that I am using that is even better. 

We believe all reported bugs for the Alpha releases have been addressed. So it is possible that Alpha #3 will become the Beta #1 candidate. This assumes no remaining or newly discovered issues once Alpha #3 is in the field.

Patrick is working on a full speed FPGA synthesis/route. As usual this does entail some logic redesign to make speed. I expect Alpha #3 will be released by this weekend if synthesis goes well.


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> What is the recommended optic cable for a 10m run? I know Jim and Kris have posted but not having any luck on a thread search


I recommend the Tributaries 18 GHz UHDV fiber cable, or the AVPro Store Bullet Train 18 GHz cable. The 18 GHz RUIPRO Fiber is also a good HDMI cable to use and less expensive.

NOTE: Unless you absolutely need 48 GHz, I strongly recommend _against_ 48 GHz active fiber cables. Since they support twice the bandwidth per channel they have faster output edge rates. Fast output edge rates are the most common issue since they are then too fast for marginal 18 GHz projector or TV inputs to handle.

NOTE: For passive cables, 48 GHz, 3 meter long, HDMI cables are fine, and there is some reasons to believe they are as good or better than 3-meter 18 GHz passive HDMI cables I currently recommend.


----------



## appelz

jrp said:


> I recommend the Tributaries 18 GHz UHDV fiber cable, or the AVPro Store Bullet Train 18 GHz cable. The 18 GHz RUIPRO Fiber is also a good HDMI cable to use and less expensive.


whew, glad we agree. It could have been embarrassing for you.  🤣

I did fail to mention the important 18ghz part tho.


----------



## jrp

appelz said:


> whew, glad we agree. It could have been embarrassing for you.  🤣
> 
> I did fail to mention the important 18ghz part tho.


HaHa. Yes, good thing. I hate being embarrassed


----------



## jrp

raullopez1234 said:


> I've been away from this thread for about a year, not informed of upcoming future firmwares or past updates. Recently bought a x950 and I might buy a lumagen and need some information concerning this and if lumagen will get updated HDMI 2.1 chips.


The current units will not ever have an internal upgrade to HDMI 2.1. I sized the FPGA for 4k, and the HDMI I/Os are limited to 4k by the design.

We are evaluating doing an 8k product.

==== 

I would much prefer doing a 4k in to 8k out as being a much better use of resources.

I won't go into to many details here, but sourcing 8K compressed content to consumers borders on stupid. Due to compression, for a given algorithm and bandwidth, compressed 8K content IMO will not look better than 4k content at viewing distance. To the contrary it is at least possible the 8K will look worse due to needing to compress four times as many pixels in to the same pipe, and this causing more compression artifacts. Again note that I said given the same algorithms and bandwidth. If you want 8K to get a better algorithm and more bandwidth you have to allow the same for 4k.

At 1X screen width 4k is already below human visual perception which is about one arc-second for on-off contrast, such as a alphabet character. This high level of contrast does not happen in video and makes 4k even further below human perception for video as to number of pixels. So, it is unlikely IMO that compressed 8k would look visibly better on a level playing field compared to 4k. So, why do it? Rhetorical question. IMO we should not ever send consumer content as 8k.

As algorithms improve and bandwidth increases, IMO these should be used for better 4k pixels. This could be in the form of less aggressive DCT truncation matrices, with fewer of the high frequency terms tossed on the floor as happens now.

I may be preaching into the void on this, but my hope is content providers consider human factors over marketing and stay at 4k for content. 4k4ever.

=====

The question is then if an 8K HDMI connection from a Radiance Pro to an 8k projector can improve the picture with 4k content. We have seen that with a Radiance Pro in front of a JVC RS4100, Radiance Pro enhanced video sent to the projector as 4k gives a better 8k mode image quality versus sending 4k directly to the projector, for very high quality static scenes. This indicates to me that for some static scenes having the Pro send 8k to the RS4100 may well be able to improve static scenes given the Radiance Pro's scaling is better.

The improvement would be small and apply to the few and far between static scenes. Once motion, and motion-blur, come into play, a 4k connection to an 8k projector is more than enough to have the best possible image quality.

=====

I will get off my soap box now. I just try to never miss an opportunity to explain how dumb 8k compressed consumer content would be from a human factors point of view. I do hope content providers take up this banner. It is the right thing, and for them better yet it will save them money.


----------



## dormie1360

appelz said:


> RuiPro - Least expensive. In my experience, sensitive to heat. If I use them in a hush box, they seem to fail once a year.
> AVPro BulletTrain 5K AOC - Good performer at reasonable price
> Tributaries Titan UHDV - My "Well, I _know_ this cable will work" solution
> 
> I mostly use AVPro and Ethereal Velox for 3m passive source to Lumagen interconnects.


I got the cables……..just need the tech guy to stop buy.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> The current units will not ever have an internal upgrade to HDMI 2.1. I sized the FPGA for 4k, and the HDMI I/Os are limited to 4k by the design.
> 
> We are evaluating doing an 8k product.
> 
> ====
> 
> I would much prefer doing a 4k in to 8k out as being a much better use of resources.
> 
> I won't go into to many details here, but sourcing 8K compressed content to consumers borders on stupid. Due to compression, for a given algorithm and bandwidth, compressed 8K content IMO will not look better than 4k content at viewing distance. To the contrary it is at least possible the 8K will look worse due to needing to compress four times as many pixels in to the same pipe, and this causing more compression artifacts. Again note that I said given the same algorithms and bandwidth. If you want 8K to get a better algorithm and more bandwidth you have to allow the same for 4k.
> 
> At 1X screen width 4k is already below human visual perception which is about one arc-second for on-off contrast, such as a alphabet character. This high level of contrast does not happen in video and makes 4k even further below human perception for video as to number of pixels. So, it is unlikely IMO that compressed 8k would look visibly better on a level playing field compared to 4k. So, why do it? Rhetorical question. IMO we should not ever send consumer content as 8k.
> 
> As algorithms improve and bandwidth increases, IMO these should be used for better 4k pixels. This could be in the form of less aggressive DCT truncation matrices, with fewer of the high frequency terms tossed on the floor as happens now.
> 
> I may be preaching into the void on this, but my hope is content providers consider human factors over marketing and stay at 4k for content. 4k4ever.
> 
> =====
> 
> The question is then if an 8K HDMI connection from a Radiance Pro to an 8k projector can improve the picture with 4k content. We have seen that with a Radiance Pro in front of a JVC RS4100, Radiance Pro enhanced video sent to the projector as 4k gives a better 8k mode image quality versus sending 4k directly to the projector, for very high quality static scenes. This indicates to me that for some static scenes having the Pro send 8k to the RS4100 may well be able to improve static scenes given the Radiance Pro's scaling is better.
> 
> The improvement would be small and apply to the few and far between static scenes. Once motion, and motion-blur, come into play, a 4k connection to an 8k projector is more than enough to have the best possible image quality.
> 
> =====
> 
> I will get off my soap box now. I just try to never miss an opportunity to explain how dumb 8k compressed consumer content would be from a human factors point of view. I do hope content providers take up this banner. It is the right thing, and for them better yet it will save them money.


4k120 and VRR with enhancements could be nice though 

Games are like movies these days and lean on directors' intent (on us spending more money to look right!)


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> 4k120 and VRR with enhancements could be nice though
> 
> Games are like movies these days and lean on directors' intent (on us spending more money to look right!)


I agree on 4k120, and this is the big reason I am looking at HDMI 2.1 sources for a (distant) future product. And nope, I will not define distant.

VRR is interesting. For the resolutions supported by the current Radiance Pro I think we should look into this. I do not have a good idea of how hard this would be to implement in the Radiance Pro. I must say I am not a fan of the image tearing this introduces, but since lowest latency for hard core gaming is the standard, we can see if it is possible.


----------



## garyolearysteele

jrp said:


> I agree on 4k120, and this is the big reason I am looking at HDMI 2.1 sources for a (distant) future product. And nope, I will not define distant.
> 
> VRR is interesting. For the resolutions supported by the current Radiance Pro I think we should look into this. I do not have a good idea of how hard this would be to implement in the Radiance Pro. I must say I am not a fan of the image tearing this introduces, but since lowest latency for hard core gaming is the standard, we can see if it is possible.


VRR doesn’t introduce image tearing when used with a compatible display (I don’t think you’d want to support it if the display didn’t):

“*VRR adjusts the refresh rate of the monitor on the fly to match the frame rate of the GPU*. This eliminates screen tearing by ensuring that the monitor waits for the next full frame before forcing a refresh”

Whilst competitive gaming benefits from a higher frame rate, generally as developers push the envelope on visual effects the frame rate can take a hit and cause stuttering and VRR provides a solution. As more TV’s support it I can see it becoming almost standard as HDR in games has. It’s already been needed for some of the latest games to deliver a smooth experience 

On that note, I think it would be a nice USP if the RP supported HGiG, from what I’ve read it sounds like you’d be able to add that without much effort in comparison to other technologies. From memory it disables all dynamic tone mapping and uses a calibration process in the console to ensure the output image matches your display capabilities. Afaik this is essentially a native grading and not a conversion like DTM, though I’m not a game developer and so cant be sure. I did try to emulate it, but I wonder if the game calibration expects a lowest luminance to be higher than a typical projector, so I’m guessing it would need a static map that works well with the console calibration, which is maybe where the RP can add value.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> The current units will not ever have an internal upgrade to HDMI 2.1. I sized the FPGA for 4k, and the HDMI I/Os are limited to 4k by the design.


But wouldn´t 4k sources also benefit from HDMI 2.1? The higher bandwitdh should deliver better colour sampling at higher bit- and framerates, no? Plus optional 120hz gaming modes...


----------



## desray2k

Hi Jim, any release date for the next Alpha or perhaps a Beta firmware?


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> Patrick is working on a full speed FPGA synthesis/route. As usual this does entail some logic redesign to make speed. I expect Alpha #3 will be released by this weekend if synthesis goes well.


----------



## Erod

jrp said:


> Alpha #2 is looking very good. I have an engineering version of Alpha #3 that I am using that is even better.
> 
> We believe all reported bugs for the Alpha releases have been addressed. So it is possible that Alpha #3 will become the Beta #1 candidate. This assumes no remaining or newly discovered issues once Alpha #3 is in the field.
> 
> Patrick is working on a full speed FPGA synthesis/route. As usual this does entail some logic redesign to make speed. I expect Alpha #3 will be released by this weekend if synthesis goes well.


Excellent, Jim.

I gotta say, I've been torture testing Alpha #2, and I continue to be pleased on numerous fronts. 

I especially notice in busy scenes with lots of textures, foliage, colors, etc, there is an additional level of resolution and color depth to the image, which has improved dynamic contrast. I think it has particularly helped with streaming in that regard. Outdoor forest and village scenes in the _The Last Kingdom_, for example, are extremely defined and detailed with greater color and vibrance to the image. _Underground 6_ looks better than ever in the bright scenes, too. 

I know you want comments to go to the website, but since it's all positive for my system, there's no harm in passing along some additional impressions to the AVS squad.


----------



## Erod

jrp said:


> The current units will not ever have an internal upgrade to HDMI 2.1. I sized the FPGA for 4k, and the HDMI I/Os are limited to 4k by the design.
> 
> We are evaluating doing an 8k product.
> 
> ====
> 
> I would much prefer doing a 4k in to 8k out as being a much better use of resources.
> 
> I won't go into to many details here, but sourcing 8K compressed content to consumers borders on stupid. Due to compression, for a given algorithm and bandwidth, compressed 8K content IMO will not look better than 4k content at viewing distance. To the contrary it is at least possible the 8K will look worse due to needing to compress four times as many pixels in to the same pipe, and this causing more compression artifacts. Again note that I said given the same algorithms and bandwidth. If you want 8K to get a better algorithm and more bandwidth you have to allow the same for 4k.
> 
> At 1X screen width 4k is already below human visual perception which is about one arc-second for on-off contrast, such as a alphabet character. This high level of contrast does not happen in video and makes 4k even further below human perception for video as to number of pixels. So, it is unlikely IMO that compressed 8k would look visibly better on a level playing field compared to 4k. So, why do it? Rhetorical question. IMO we should not ever send consumer content as 8k.
> 
> As algorithms improve and bandwidth increases, IMO these should be used for better 4k pixels. This could be in the form of less aggressive DCT truncation matrices, with fewer of the high frequency terms tossed on the floor as happens now.
> 
> I may be preaching into the void on this, but my hope is content providers consider human factors over marketing and stay at 4k for content. 4k4ever.
> 
> =====
> 
> The question is then if an 8K HDMI connection from a Radiance Pro to an 8k projector can improve the picture with 4k content. We have seen that with a Radiance Pro in front of a JVC RS4100, Radiance Pro enhanced video sent to the projector as 4k gives a better 8k mode image quality versus sending 4k directly to the projector, for very high quality static scenes. This indicates to me that for some static scenes having the Pro send 8k to the RS4100 may well be able to improve static scenes given the Radiance Pro's scaling is better.
> 
> The improvement would be small and apply to the few and far between static scenes. Once motion, and motion-blur, come into play, a 4k connection to an 8k projector is more than enough to have the best possible image quality.
> 
> =====
> 
> I will get off my soap box now. I just try to never miss an opportunity to explain how dumb 8k compressed consumer content would be from a human factors point of view. I do hope content providers take up this banner. It is the right thing, and for them better yet it will save them money.


I have ZERO interest in 8K because I don't sit two feet in front of my screen like a 3-year-old, and I don't want a 200-inch screen. 

However, I would definitely like variable refresh rates, and there are certainly advantages to 120 or 240 refresh rates in the hopefully near future with certain media.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> I agree on 4k120, and this is the big reason I am looking at HDMI 2.1 sources for a (distant) future product. And nope, I will not define distant.
> 
> VRR is interesting. For the resolutions supported by the current Radiance Pro I think we should look into this. I do not have a good idea of how hard this would be to implement in the Radiance Pro. I must say I am not a fan of the image tearing this introduces, but since lowest latency for hard core gaming is the standard, we can see if it is possible.


Would it be possible to do 1080p120 on existing Radiance Pro models? In addition to gaming, it might create a unique opportunity to add 5:5 cadence (and perhaps even some mild/smart frame interpolation?) for displaying a "smoother without soap opera effect" presentation for 24fps movies & shows?


----------



## riddle

I think on hdmi 2.0 you can run 1440p with 120hz...


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Would it be possible to do 1080p120 on existing Radiance Pro models? In addition to gaming, it might create a unique opportunity to add 5:5 cadence (and perhaps even some mild/smart frame interpolation?) for displaying a "smoother without soap opera effect" presentation for 24fps movies & shows?


Good question.

The Radiance Pro already supports 1080p120 output, and will do the correct output cadence for both 24 Hertz and 60 Hertz sources.

We have it on our "under consideration list" to check on 1080p120 input. This would depend on if the input chips we use support this mode since the FPGA can certainly work for 1080p120 processing. If the chips do support 1080p120 it should be possible to add 1080p120 for sources. Given how how often 4k120 games are actually rendered at 1080p120 when quality is turned up, I think this could make sense for gaming.

=====

I am opposed to frame interpolation as it is guaranteed to create artifacts. I hate artifacts.

This is especially true given the limits of the hardware trying to do this in TVs and projectors. IMO it is a "Demo Feature," good for demos and not much else. Two cases come to mind that create big problems: Motion blur, and an object in frame for a single frame. To do the best job one would need to "un-blur" the motion-blur and then recreate the motion blur appropriate for the reduced frame time. I don't think this can be done to the level needed. For the object in frame for a single frame, there is no motion one can measure to calculate the estimated location in the newly generated frames. My motto is "first do no harm" when is comes to video processing. Frame interpolation will harm your image by creating artifacts. To me this makes it a non-starter.

I tell everyone the first thing to do when they setup is to turn off motion interpolation. I can't tell you how many people have complained of issues with their image quality that once they turn off motion interpolation they then say "Oh, that is better."


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Good question.
> 
> The Radiance Pro already supports 1080p120 output, and will do the correct output cadence for both 24 Hertz and 60 Hertz sources.
> 
> We have it on our "under consideration list" to check on 1080p120 input. This would depend on if the input chips we use support this mode since the FPGA can certainly work for 1080p120 processing. If the chips do support 1080p120 it should be possible to add 1080p120 for sources. Given how how often 4k120 games are actually rendered at 1080p120 when quality is turned up, I think this could make sense for gaming.
> 
> =====
> 
> I am opposed to frame interpolation as it is guaranteed to create artifacts. I hate artifacts.
> 
> This is especially true given the limits of the hardware trying to do this in TVs and projectors. IMO it is a "Demo Feature," good for demos and not much else. Two cases come to mind that create big problems: Motion blur, and an object in frame for a single frame. To do the best job one would need to "un-blur" the motion-blur and then recreate the motion blur appropriate for the reduced frame time. I don't think this can be done to the level needed. For the object in frame for a single frame, there is no motion one can measure to calculate the estimated location in the newly generated frames. My motto is "first do no harm" when is comes to video processing. Frame interpolation will harm your image by creating artifacts. To me this makes it a non-starter.
> 
> I tell everyone the first thing to do when they setup is to turn off motion interpolation. I can't tell you how many people have complained of issues with their image quality that once they turn off motion interpolation they then say "Oh, that is better."


That's awesome 1080p120 output with proper cadence already exists -- makes me want to try a fancy new 120Hz projector knowing the Radiance Pro's downscaling 4k to 1080p is almost indistinguishable from native 4k from a certain distance.

Indeed, I hate aggressive smoothing/blurring artifacts, but I think some systems try to retain the "texture" of 24fps while using the added frames of 120Hz to mimic smoother panels (like Sony's native 24fps presentation looking "smoother" than JVC 24fps presentation, etc.).


----------



## riddle

jrp said:


> Good question.
> 
> The Radiance Pro already supports 1080p120 output, and will do the correct output cadence for both 24 Hertz and 60 Hertz sources.
> 
> We have it on our "under consideration list" to check on 1080p120 input. This would depend on if the input chips we use support this mode since the FPGA can certainly work for 1080p120 processing. If the chips do support 1080p120 it should be possible to add 1080p120 for sources. Given how how often 4k120 games are actually rendered at 1080p120 when quality is turned up, I think this could make sense for gaming.
> 
> =====
> 
> I am opposed to frame interpolation as it is guaranteed to create artifacts. I hate artifacts.
> 
> This is especially true given the limits of the hardware trying to do this in TVs and projectors. IMO it is a "Demo Feature," good for demos and not much else. Two cases come to mind that create big problems: Motion blur, and an object in frame for a single frame. To do the best job one would need to "un-blur" the motion-blur and then recreate the motion blur appropriate for the reduced frame time. I don't think this can be done to the level needed. For the object in frame for a single frame, there is no motion one can measure to calculate the estimated location in the newly generated frames. My motto is "first do no harm" when is comes to video processing. Frame interpolation will harm your image by creating artifacts. To me this makes it a non-starter.
> 
> I tell everyone the first thing to do when they setup is to turn off motion interpolation. I can't tell you how many people have complained of issues with their image quality that once they turn off motion interpolation they then say "Oh, that is better."


Hi Jim, if it were possible to run 120Hz on the existing Lumagen this will be amazing. Then I would have to ask if it would be possible add 1440p resolution, HDMI 2.0 should still handle 120Hz in that resolution. XBOX already supports this resolution and PS might hopefully do this soon too.


----------



## asharma

Hi folks, question on NLS…I found when watching 1.85 on my scope screen with NLS, some of the panning artifacts were driving me bonkers…My solution was to scale 1.85 to 2.0 to minimize the side bars that are in my field of view…Tonight I thought ok, now what if I apply NLS to my scaled 2.0…?

so I did and it’s not bad at all…Not seeing the panning artifacts and things don’t look quite as zoomed in…it actually looks quite good…

is this actually a better “compromise” than using 1.85 NLS? It appears to be better but theoretically should it be?

thanks folks

edit: also found if I reduce the top and bottom crop in the NLS settings to 0 it minimizes the zoom from the original aspect ratio…So using this method I seem to have eliminated the panning artifacts or perhaps they are just outside my field of view given I scaled 1:85->2.0->2.0 NLS


----------



## Mikesterz

jrp said:


> The current units will not ever have an internal upgrade to HDMI 2.1. I sized the FPGA for 4k, and the HDMI I/Os are limited to 4k by the design.
> 
> We are evaluating doing an 8k product.
> 
> ====
> 
> I would much prefer doing a 4k in to 8k out as being a much better use of resources.
> 
> I won't go into to many details here, but sourcing 8K compressed content to consumers borders on stupid. Due to compression, for a given algorithm and bandwidth, compressed 8K content IMO will not look better than 4k content at viewing distance. To the contrary it is at least possible the 8K will look worse due to needing to compress four times as many pixels in to the same pipe, and this causing more compression artifacts. Again note that I said given the same algorithms and bandwidth. If you want 8K to get a better algorithm and more bandwidth you have to allow the same for 4k.
> 
> At 1X screen width 4k is already below human visual perception which is about one arc-second for on-off contrast, such as a alphabet character. This high level of contrast does not happen in video and makes 4k even further below human perception for video as to number of pixels. So, it is unlikely IMO that compressed 8k would look visibly better on a level playing field compared to 4k. So, why do it? Rhetorical question. IMO we should not ever send consumer content as 8k.
> 
> As algorithms improve and bandwidth increases, IMO these should be used for better 4k pixels. This could be in the form of less aggressive DCT truncation matrices, with fewer of the high frequency terms tossed on the floor as happens now.
> 
> I may be preaching into the void on this, but my hope is content providers consider human factors over marketing and stay at 4k for content. 4k4ever.
> 
> =====
> 
> The question is then if an 8K HDMI connection from a Radiance Pro to an 8k projector can improve the picture with 4k content. We have seen that with a Radiance Pro in front of a JVC RS4100, Radiance Pro enhanced video sent to the projector as 4k gives a better 8k mode image quality versus sending 4k directly to the projector, for very high quality static scenes. This indicates to me that for some static scenes having the Pro send 8k to the RS4100 may well be able to improve static scenes given the Radiance Pro's scaling is better.
> 
> The improvement would be small and apply to the few and far between static scenes. Once motion, and motion-blur, come into play, a 4k connection to an 8k projector is more than enough to have the best possible image quality.
> 
> =====
> 
> I will get off my soap box now. I just try to never miss an opportunity to explain how dumb 8k compressed consumer content would be from a human factors point of view. I do hope content providers take up this banner. It is the right thing, and for them better yet it will save them money.


I would love a hdmi 2.1 radiance pro. Not for anything 8k, but for 4k 120 gaming. I could care less for 8k at my seating distance.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> Sorry to disagree on what to use to adjust lip-sync, but I would not use lips, or a distant explosion, to do lip-sync adjustments.
> 
> Lips do not necessarily move at the same time the sound changes.


It very much depends on the lips being used (not all soundtracks are correctly synced). These days I measure lipsync with hardware and test patterns. Prior to that I used to use various test scenes, always focussing on lips as they are the things we all look at when talking to people and are therefore the most natural reference for lipsync as you tend to spot very quickly when lips are out of lipsync.

A good test scene is the red/blue pill scene in The Matrix (blu ray) where Morpheus is talking to Neo. You can set the lipsync focussing on Morpheus and once set will find that most movies look good. Later, when I started measuring lipsync, I found the Morpheus test was a very good one and accuracy was high. 

Which is not to say your other examples may actually be a better way to do it. I've never tried them.


----------



## Peule_P

Mark_H said:


> It very much depends on the lips being used (not all soundtracks are correctly synced). These days I measure lipsync with hardware and test patterns. Prior to that I used to use various test scenes, always focussing on lips as they are the things we all look at when talking to people and are therefore the most natural reference for lipsync as you tend to spot very quickly when lips are out of lipsync.
> 
> A good test scene is the red/blue pill scene in The Matrix (blu ray) where Morpheus is talking to Neo. You can set the lipsync focussing on Morpheus and once set will find that most movies look good. Later, when I started measuring lipsync, I found the Morpheus test was a very good one and accuracy was high.
> 
> Which is not to say your other examples may actually be a better way to do it. I've never tried them.


Which hardware do you use to measure it? I have seen the Sync-One from Harkwood and it looks pretty good to me?


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> It very much depends on the lips being used (not all soundtracks are correctly synced). These days I measure lipsync with hardware and test patterns.


Yup. The one spec I'm aware of from ITU is pretty loose. They recommend content to sync between -20 and +40ms; but of course, that means you have to be spot-on in yous system otherwise some content may appear to be out and other content appear to be fine. If you are unlucky in what you use to judge sync, you can be storing up these problems for later.


https://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-J.100-199006-I!!PDF-E&type=items


Further info on some of the testing this came from:


https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/rep/R-REP-BT.1081-1-1990-PDF-E.pdf


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> The good news is you can increase the Gamma (maybe in the 2.6 range) and set max light to maybe 2000 or even 4000, and Dyn Pad = 6, with this display to moderate normal video levels and use the extra brightness for highlights.
> 
> Note, with a Max Light of 4000, you will maintain color saturation to higher scene brightness levels. You can check out the HSL color model to see why. The model shows you can maintain good color saturation up to about 50% of the maximum light output capability. By using the higher Max Light you can preserve more color saturation for very bright scenes.
> 
> Try some of these changes to see what you prefer.


I'd like to preface this post with the fact that I'm most likely doing this wrong, but that's how I learn best (try, fail, repeat). Your patience and feedback is much appreciated!

I spent a bit of time playing with the settings for my 1,000 nit video wall. 4000 for Max Light made everything look too drab to my taste. The display lost a lot of its punchiness. 2000 seems to keep outside scenes nice and bright. I've coupled this with a gamma of ~2.5 using the gamma adjustment factor in the RP (display's gamma is set to 2.6).

I'm using DynPad 6 for now, but I haven't found a good scene to see the difference. The beginning of _The Meg_ was suggested with the blinking red lights in the background. Are there any others? What am I looking for?

I'm also playing with LowRatio, which I had set to 24 from previous toying. It seems the higher the value, the brighter dark scenes. I'm using scenes from _The Revenant_ (bark at night) and _Blade Runner 2049_ (inside farmer's house). In both cases, I can see background details with LowRatio 0.


----------



## jrp

riddle said:


> Hi Jim, if it were possible to run 120Hz on the existing Lumagen this will be amazing. Then I would have to ask if it would be possible add 1440p resolution, HDMI 2.0 should still handle 120Hz in that resolution. XBOX already supports this resolution and PS might hopefully do this soon too.


I put input and output at 1440p120 on the under consideration list, along side the already mentioned 1080p120. Thanks for the recommendation. I am not a gamer, so ideas to improve gaming are most welcome.

If the 18 GHz chips do not support these modes, it is likely not possible because they are autonomous chips with internal processors and only allow the modes they already support. I doubt 1440p120 is on this list, but we might get lucky and they pass them and just do not correctly report the mode resolution. We already use the FPGA to detect things the HDMI chips get wrong. So fingers crossed this might work.


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> It very much depends on the lips being used (not all soundtracks are correctly synced). These days I measure lipsync with hardware and test patterns. Prior to that I used to use various test scenes, always focusing on lips as they are the things we all look at when talking to people and are therefore the most natural reference for lipsync as you tend to spot very quickly when lips are out of lipsync.


I agree one can use lips to set lipsync. However, while I always evaluate lip sync based on lips after I set lipsync, I have in the past seen that if I use lips, guitar string plucks might be off, but if I use guitar string plucks, lip sync for lips is always good.

So for me a mechanically generated sound is optimal. I also like the idea of a device with a microphone and light-sensor to take the human out of getting lip-sync right. I just have not stepped up and bought one since I am happy with the results I am getting.

==== 

BTW: As an additional detail, I use Genlock-Normal-Mode for 24 Hertz, but not 60 Hertz. So, I leave Genlock off for 60 Hertz content. The 42 mS variance at 24 Hertz for the Pro latency with Genlock off made it more difficult to get 24 Hertz content lip-sync just right for different content and sources. Using Genlock for 24 Hertz content, makes Lip-sync much better for me. On the flip side, I find I can get good lip-sync for 60 Hertz content (which has a 16.7 mS variance for video latency in the Pro) without enabling Genlock. Since Genlock adds an output restart for each source or content switch, having it off at 60 Hertz and on for 24 Hertz gives me the benefits of Genlock for movies and other 24 Hertz source, but keeps switching at 60 Hertz faster.


----------



## theo17

jrp said:


> So for me a mechanically generated sound is optimal. I also like the idea of a device with a microphone and light-sensor to take the human out of getting lip-sync right. I just have not stepped up and bought one since I am happy with the results I am getting.


Has anyone else tried AVSync on Android? It's a very simple app that uses the phone's mic and camera. I just got it recently and it's made a big improvement for us compared to using lips.

Our LRP feeds a JVC NX7 and Trinnov Altitude16. When we're streaming with the FireTV 4K or Shield Pro we seem to need a video delay of 80ms for 1080p and 50ms for 4K. With the AppleTV 4K we have to delay the audio by 70ms. I was surprised that there could be such divergence - does anyone else have a similar experience?


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> I am opposed to frame interpolation as it is guaranteed to create artifacts.


Just the contrary for me.

To me frame interpolations is obligatory. I much rather have artifacts than the headache of permanent stutter. I find it totally distracting meanwhile. 

Various filmmakers share the view that 24p is just an ancient relict.

Especially 3D movies and sports benefit a lot from FI.

Of course I wished that someone could finally implement artifact free FI. 

On my NZ9 I noticed that 50hz and 60hz sources have less artifacts than 24hz. So maybe converting sources to 120hz would be a step into the right direction?


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> On my NZ9 I noticed that 50hz and 60hz sources have less artifacts than 24hz. So maybe converting sources to 120hz would be a step into the right direction?


I can't see converting 24 to 120 with the same frames (ie 5:5 cadence) would make any difference at all, as it's the same frame time and may well be something akin to what the projector is already doing. I think it only makes any sort of "sense" (using the term loosely, as I also dislike FI) if you combine with some other technique such as frame blending, black frame insertion (not sure 120 is really fast enough for that), or (shudder) FI.


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> I can't see converting 24 to 120 with the same frames (ie 5:5 cadence) would make any difference at all, as it's the same frame time and may well be something akin to what the projector is already doing.


I was under the impression that higher frame rates need less CPU power for FI and result in less artifacts hence.


----------



## bjorg

The brighter the display, the more the judder is visible and annoying. I'm also in the camp of going beyond 24p. Nowadays, it's an artificial limitation anyway as every piece of equipment in the chain is capable of more frames per second.


----------



## edthomp

jrp said:


> I agree one can use lips to set lipsync. However, while I always evaluate lip sync based on lips after I set lipsync, I have in the past seen that if I use lips, guitar string plucks might be off, but if I use guitar string plucks, lip sync for lips is always good.
> 
> So for me a mechanically generated sound is optimal. I also like the idea of a device with a microphone and light-sensor to take the human out of getting lip-sync right. I just have not stepped up and bought one since I am happy with the results I am getting.
> 
> ====
> 
> BTW: As an additional detail, I use Genlock-Normal-Mode for 24 Hertz, but not 60 Hertz. So, I leave Genlock off for 60 Hertz content. The 42 mS variance at 24 Hertz for the Pro latency with Genlock off made it more difficult to get 24 Hertz content lip-sync just right for different content and sources. Using Genlock for 24 Hertz content, makes Lip-sync much better for me. On the flip side, I find I can get good lip-sync for 60 Hertz content (which has a 16.7 mS variance for video latency in the Pro) without enabling Genlock. Since Genlock adds an output restart for each source or content switch, having it off at 60 Hertz and on for 24 Hertz gives me the benefits of Genlock for movies and other 24 Hertz source, but keeps switching at 60 Hertz faster.


Are there any disadvantages or trade-offs when using Genlock-Normal-Mode for 24 Hertz (and I assume this means Auto24-Normal)? You mentioned it increasing switching delay, but I think I recall seeing a note about it slightly increasing jitter, but I wasn't sure if that impacted video or audio. Can you please advise.


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> Just the contrary for me.
> 
> To me frame interpolations is obligatory. I much rather have artifacts than the headache of permanent stutter. I find it totally distracting meanwhile.
> 
> Various filmmakers share the view that 24p is just an ancient relict.
> 
> Especially 3D movies and sports benefit a lot from FI.
> 
> Of course I wished that someone could finally implement artifact free FI.
> 
> On my NZ9 I noticed that 50hz and 60hz sources have less artifacts than 24hz. So maybe converting sources to 120hz would be a step into the right direction?


The reason 60 Hertz motion interpolation looks better is there is less, to no, motion blur. The 24 Hertz content has significant motion blur, which in turn will reduce how much judder is perceived.

You shared that various filmmakers do not like 24p, however, it is my understanding the the majority still prefer 24 Hertz. No data on this (that I know of) though. So, hard to be sure. If someone has an actual poll of movie directors and producers, it would be great to have data on this topic. I did hear that the 48 Hertz cut of the Hobbit was widely panned due to its "soap opera look."

A video camera with little to no motion blur (not a good thing IMO) running at 60 Hertz eliminates one of the two biggest issues (motion blur) for frame interpolation, and starts with more information (60 images per second). So, it is going to have fewer artifacts doing frame interpolation. I cannot "un-see" the soap opera effect at these high rates without the motion blur, and the effect bothers me for movies. I would not mind it so much for sports I believe.

The other main problem in TVs with motion interpolation is the motion-compensation search area is way too small due to gate limitations. Especially in sports, objects can move a large distance between two frames. If the search area is not large enough, the motion compensation cannot find the motion and so has no information about how the object is moving. What I have seen in TVs is the motion-compensation search is much larger horizontally, and so a true horizonal pan will look better (and why this is the common demo) than motion that is not strictly horizontal.

We each like what we like, and neither of us is right or wrong. It is our preference. I have a large number of cases where people turning off motion compensation improves their image quality in their opinion. I have not seen frame interpolation where the benefits so outweigh the artifacts that I would choose to use it. That's just my opinion.

If you like it great. However, for people who do like it, to me frame interpolation belongs in the TV/projector so they can adapt to their internal refresh rate. I do not anticipate we will add it to our video processing. I never say never though,


----------



## jrp

edthomp said:


> Are there any disadvantages or trade-offs when using Genlock-Normal-Mode for 24 Hertz (and I assume this means Auto24-Normal)? You mentioned it increasing switching delay, but I think I recall seeing a note about it slightly increasing jitter, but I wasn't sure if that impacted video or audio. Can you please advise.


Thanks for the question and reminder.

I have recommended in the past that if you are using Genlock that you use "audio only" mode for audio output to the audio processor from the Radiance Pro. This is because the Genlock might increase output jitter to a small degree. However, this would not affect an "audio only" output mode. Note that the difference in jitter has not been measured but I believe it to be very small in the 4XXX models, and might not be measurable in the 5XXX units.

I have been using Genlock 24p normal, and for the 5348 driving the Trinnov Altitude in the Lumagen Demo Theater I have not heard an audio difference between an audio-only output versus audio+video output driving the Altitude 16. So, the output dejitter circuit in the 5XXX likely eliminates the difference in audio output jitter between the two options. I have not done this test for the 4XXX which does not have the output dejitter buffer that is in the 5XXX. Still I expect the audio difference in the 4XXX model for the two options to be small to none.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> I did hear that the 48 Hertz cut of the Hobbit was widely panned due to its "soap opera look."


Which is really a shame because you definitely got used to it as the movies went on, and the HFR 3D was the best 3D I've ever seen by far hands down. If he wasn't raked over the coals so badly for trying to push the medium forward, we probably could've had variable frame rate action/3D movies by now to mitigate soap opera effect for slow, panning scenes while having truly stunning 3D for the action.


----------



## bjorg

DigitalAV said:


> Which is really a shame because you definitely got used to it as the movies went on, and the HFR 3D was the best 3D I've ever seen by far hands down. If he wasn't raked over the coals so badly for trying to push the medium forward, we probably could've had variable frame rate action/3D movies by now to mitigate soap opera effect for slow, panning scenes while having truly stunning 3D for the action.


Also a shame that it wasn't released on bluray with HFR. My local theater wasn't playing it at 48Hz at the time, so I never saw it as it was meant to be seen. But I did catch Gemini Man, which looked absolutely stunning.

For me, the future is HFR. Not only does it approximate reality better, it's a must for large self-emissive displays where motion studder is so much more perceptible. However, that doesn't mean I expect/want Lumagen to implement motion interpolation. My preference is for the source content to be shot HFR.


----------



## Mark_H

Peule_P said:


> Which hardware do you use to measure it? I have seen the Sync-One from Harkwood and it looks pretty good to me?


I use the, now discontinued, Syncheck

Syncheck3 solves audio sync problems (pharoahaudio.com)

I also have the Sync-One as a backup, should the Syncheck ever die.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Yup. The one spec I'm aware of from ITU is pretty loose.


Not actually sure what spec is used in mastering but my experience is that once a source (eg blu-ray player) is corrected _most_ material from that source will be fine, with per-item adjustments for poor mastering only rarely needed. Care should be taken to check all audio-codecs are corrected as some sources will add different delays depending on codec processing. The worst are streaming boxes, as some have different lipsync per app, and that's a real pain to deal with. Lipsync, rather like video artefacts can be one of those things that it's better not to look for if you aren't bothered by it because once you see it, you can't unsee it...


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> I agree one can use lips to set lipsync. However, while I always evaluate lip sync based on lips after I set lipsync, I have in the past seen that if I use lips, guitar string plucks might be off, but if I use guitar string plucks, lip sync for lips is always good.


That makes a lot of sense. The guitar strings here act rather like the Spears and Munsil, et al, test patterns where a very short percussive/staccato sound can be tightly correlated with a visual stimulus. Once sync is corrected for the strings, lips will also be in sync.

When using lips it helps to find sources with that same percussive/staccato style of words/phrases - where you can see the lips making short little b-b-b-b, p-p-p-p, f-f-f-f noises so you can dial in easily. Slow spoken dialogue can be harder to dial in.

Hardware testing removes all the doubt and is good for ones sanity!


----------



## Nima

Quick reminder please how do I turn my audio output to audio only?


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> Also a shame that it wasn't released on bluray with HFR. My local theater wasn't playing it at 48Hz at the time, so I never saw it as it was meant to be seen. But I did catch Gemini Man, which looked absolutely stunning.
> 
> For me, the future is HFR. Not only does it approximate reality better, it's a must for large self-emissive displays where motion studder is so much more perceptible. However, that doesn't mean I expect/want Lumagen to implement motion interpolation. My preference is for the source content to be shot HFR.


I saw both theatrically in HFR as well as a special presentation of Billy Lynn. I didn't like any of them. It was especially bad with The Hobbit movies. The HFR was not only distracting in motion, it made most of the set pieces look like something you'd find on SyFy channel and not a large production movie like this. To say that I greatly prefer the 24p version would be an understatement. Didn't like either of Ang's movies for HFR, but Gemini Man's production didn't make it as noticeable as it didn't have the same kind of sets and such. Still took away the cinematic look though and looked more like something from a TV production.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I saw both theatrically in HFR as well as a special presentation of Billy Lynn. I didn't like any of them. It was especially bad with The Hobbit movies. The HFR was not only distracting in motion, it made most of the set pieces look like something you'd find on SyFy channel and not a large production movie like this. To say that I greatly prefer the 24p version would be an understatement. Didn't like either of Ang's movies for HFR, but Gemini Man's production didn't make it as noticeable as it didn't have the same kind of sets and such. Still took away the cinematic look though and looked more like something from a TV production.


I think there is an intrinsic problem with real action content and HFR - there's a lot that can be hidden and we infer in the 24fps format that is laid bare with HFR. I find this particularly bad in Gemini Man. Will Smith has been in some good action movies, yet every action scene looks wooden and totally unbelievable at in HFR. I can't see how you can overcome this, as at the end of the day you're dealing with people who are having to act and not actually try to kill each other or break their necks.


----------



## NxNW

Whether it's video games or some future Peter Jackson / Ang Lee project, the ability to handle high frame rate will only increase in value. We can continue the old debate about whether HFR is necessary or helpful for visual storytelling, but it seems pretty obvious Lumagen will want to be able to support 120 fps or even higher with future products (especially if 3D ever comes back). 

In the shorter term, VRR is already here and could be a worthy (and possibly much more challenging) area of exploration.


----------



## danam

Hi, I've done a little research and didn't find any tips on how to set the Radiance Pro with a PS5 to get 2160P and HDR available.
When I try to force HDR with 2160P res, the SP5 tells me "The HDMI device you are connected doesn't support 2160 and HDR so it will go to 1080P and HDR".
Is it another HDMI cable weird thing ? I use a 3m Moshou (fiber optics) HDMI cable. Same thing with the HDMI Cable provided with the PS5.
Any hint ?


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> I saw both theatrically in HFR as well as a special presentation of Billy Lynn. I didn't like any of them. It was especially bad with The Hobbit movies. The HFR was not only distracting in motion, it made most of the set pieces look like something you'd find on SyFy channel and not a large production movie like this. To say that I greatly prefer the 24p version would be an understatement. Didn't like either of Ang's movies for HFR, but Gemini Man's production didn't make it as noticeable as it didn't have the same kind of sets and such. Still took away the cinematic look though and looked more like something from a TV production.


I believe HFR with Hobbit was so distracting because of the CGI used. Did you watch it in 3D? 

Gemini Man on my NZ9 is absolutely stunning, the best looking picture I have ever seen. Unfortunately the movie is below par too. The scenes on the boat are just unbelievable...


----------



## bobof

danam said:


> Hi, I've done a little research and didn't find any tips on how to set the Radiance Pro with a PS5 to get 2160P and HDR available.
> When I try to force HDR with 2160P res, the SP5 tells me "The HDMI device you are connected doesn't support 2160 and HDR so it will go to 1080P and HDR".
> Is it another HDMI cable weird thing ? I use a 3m Moshou (fiber optics) HDMI cable. Same thing with the HDMI Cable provided with the PS5.
> Any hint ?


Do you have 18G input cards?


----------



## danam

Hmm yes but maybe just one ... and I plugged the ps5 on #3 ... il get back to you but I think that might be the problem ...


----------



## danam

bobof said:


> Do you have 18G input cards?


That was it ... it worked if plugged on input #2 ... my bad ans thx for the help. Didn't remember with configuration.


----------



## jrp

Nima said:


> Quick reminder please how do I turn my audio output to audio only?


Menu->Output->Output Setup->2D, then OK to enter change menu.

Then select All for input, input-memory, and input-mode (you will see other entries go to dashes). Then right arrow to under the word Enable, and then to the dash under the output number. Then up-arrow until it says "A". Then Press OK to accept, and Exit to engage the change. Then if you want to make it permanent do a Save.

Note: The Pro does not allow Output 2 on a 4242, or output 3 on a 5348, to be audio only so at least one output has video. Not sure on 444X, but likely Output 4 must have video as well.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> I saw both theatrically in HFR as well as a special presentation of Billy Lynn. I didn't like any of them. It was especially bad with The Hobbit movies. The HFR was not only distracting in motion, it made most of the set pieces look like something you'd find on SyFy channel and not a large production movie like this. To say that I greatly prefer the 24p version would be an understatement. Didn't like either of Ang's movies for HFR, but Gemini Man's production didn't make it as noticeable as it didn't have the same kind of sets and such. Still took away the cinematic look though and looked more like something from a TV production.


The whole point of the Hobbit HFR was to watch it in 3D, why anyone would want to even try watching it in HFR without it?


----------



## alv

Was alpha 3 released this weekend?


----------



## EVH78

alv said:


> Was alpha 3 released this weekend?


Not yet...


----------



## gerard1meehan

I see my question was addressed


----------



## woofer

EVH78 said:


> Not yet...


Yes it was..


----------



## EVH78

woofer said:


> Yes it was..


Thanks!

edit: went to my spam folder...


----------



## alv

any comments on alpha 3? If no issues how long before public beta?


----------



## jrp

I sent out Alpha #3 this past weekend.

Apologies to those who thought you were on the list but did not get Alpha #2 and/or Alpha #3. This was an oversight on my part where I thought I added a few people I actually did not get on the list. Completely unintentional.

If you think you want to evaluate Alpha releases, especially if I said I would put you on the list and did not receive Alpha #3, please email me at lumagen.com support.

=====

Early reports on Alpha #3 are very positive, with a couple issues reported:

One issue is 4k60 NLS. We had a report of an issue in Alpha #2 for 4k60 NLS that Alpha #3 was intended to correct, but apparently still some issues with NLS in this specific mode. We should have this resolved in the next release.

There is an issue with test patterns for some specific cases. We should have these sorted in the next release.

There was a minor issue with DTM that will be corrected in the next release.

I believe this is it for bugs in Alpha #3. Given these couple of issues Alpha #3 will not be the Beta #1 candidate. We are getting close though.


----------



## Mikesterz

Anyone know how to turn on and off game mode by sending a signal through RS-232? I have my PS5 input set to game mode but would like to easily turn it off if I wanted to watch a blu ray movie through it.


----------



## SJHT

Mikesterz said:


> Anyone know how to turn on and off game mode by sending a signal through RS-232? I have my PS5 input set to game mode but would like to easily turn it off if I wanted to watch a blu ray movie through it.


ZY551X<CR> Set Gamemode-- (0/1) to set game mode -Added 051021

From: 



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_070121.pdf


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> I sent out Alpha #3 this past weekend.
> 
> Apologies to those who thought you were on the list but did not get Alpha #2 and/or Alpha #3. This was an oversight on my part where I thought I added a few people I actually did not get on the list. Completely unintentional.
> 
> If you think you want to evaluate Alpha releases, especially if I said I would put you on the list and did not receive Alpha #3, please email me at lumagen.com support.
> 
> =====
> 
> Early reports on Alpha #3 are very positive, with a couple issues reported:
> 
> One issue is 4k60 NLS. We had a report of an issue in Alpha #2 for 4k60 NLS that Alpha #3 was intended to correct, but apparently still some issues with NLS in this specific mode. We should have this resolved in the next release.
> 
> There is an issue with test patterns for some specific cases. We should have these sorted in the next release.
> 
> There was a minor issue with DTM that will be corrected in the next release.
> 
> I believe this is it for bugs in Alpha #3. Given these couple of issues Alpha #3 will not be the Beta #1 candidate. We are getting close though.


Thanks Jim and Patrick, I've been using the latest Alpha 3 release and very satisfied so far. In fact I think this is the best one to date. I didn't spot any issue with DTM though...can you private msg me the issue behind this DTM if you are not comfortable to post here. Thanks.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Thanks Jim and Patrick, I've been using the latest Alpha 3 release and very satisfied so far. In fact I think this is the best one to date. I didn't spot any issue with DTM though...can you private msg me the issue behind this DTM if you are not comfortable to post here. Thanks.


There was a very minor calculation error in the logic associated with desaturation. It was only visible on test patterns.


----------



## ARROW-AV

Nima said:


> Which projector do you have that allows full BT2020? There are only a handfull which can cover full BT2020 gamut.


He has a Christie Griffyn AS RGB Laser Projector. RGB laser projectors can achieve >96% of BT.2020. However, in all but a few this comes with undesirable Laser Speckle video artifacts. The Christie Griffyn AS typically measures 98 - 100% of BT.2020 and is one of the few which has no Laser Speckle whatsoever. Mike's unit IIRC measures over 99% of BT.2020. The Christie Eclipse is another and the upcoming Christie M 4K25 AS is another.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> There was a very minor calculation error in the logic associated with desaturation. It was only visible on test patterns.


I see...thanks for the clarification. No wonder I do not see anything "out of place". But of course this is important to fix for calibration purpose.


----------



## Mikesterz

SJHT said:


> ZY551X<CR> Set Gamemode-- (0/1) to set game mode -Added 051021
> 
> From:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0011_RS232CommandInterface_070121.pdf


Thanks!


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> I see...thanks for the clarification. No wonder I do not see anything "out of place". But of course this is important to fix for calibration purpose.


Please note that DTM is not active during calibration, and this issue only affected DTM.

For reference: Since the Radiance Pro "outputs HDR in an SDR container" calibration is almost always done with SDR Rec 2020 patterns, and SDR Rec 2020 targets, to Gamma 2.4.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Please note that DTM is not active during calibration, and this issue only affected DTM.
> 
> For reference: Since the Radiance Pro "outputs HDR in an SDR container" calibration is almost always done with SDR Rec 2020 patterns, and SDR Rec 2020 targets, to Gamma 2.4.


Oh yes... Thanks for correcting me. Mixed up DTM with color gamut used for calibration. For the test patterns, you've mentioned briefly that there is some issue with test patterns for "specific cases". What are those? Is it ok to be be used for calibration for general users?


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Oh yes... Thanks for correcting me. Mixed up DTM with color gamut used for calibration. For the test patterns, you've mentioned briefly that there is some issue with test patterns for "specific cases". What are those? Is it ok to be be used for calibration for general users?


I am not certain of the details. I believe that a few test patterns do not correctly draw to the edge of the screen in some modes.

I believe Window Patterns used for calbrations all work. So calibrations should not be affected.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hey Guys,

Just a question to those who has Denon X8500HA, just ordered this beast comparing to my X3500H, I usually were running my Lumagen Pro in front of everything and because of that of course I am loosing OSD menu and etc, I am planning to try out placing this receiver in front of my setup, so far those who has this setup any issues so far or concerns?

Thank you,
Regards,

Sergejs K.


----------



## Mark Burton

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Just a question to those who has Denon X8500HA, just ordered this beast comparing to my X3500H, I usually were running my Lumagen Pro in front of everything and because of that of course I am loosing OSD menu and etc, I am planning to try out placing this receiver in front of my setup, so far those who has this setup any issues so far or concerns?
> 
> Thank you,
> Regards,
> 
> Sergejs K.


It will be fine this way


----------



## docrog

Mark Burton said:


> It will be fine this way


I have had absolutely *NO* problems running all video sources to my Denon 6700 then a single HDMI output to the RP for video (only) processing.


----------



## desray2k

I have been connecting it this way since day 1 because I need to see the OSD of the AVR/Amp on my screen to see the settings and never give me any issue at all. So dun worry.


----------



## raullopez1234

@jrp is instantaneous aspect detection in the works or planned in the future.


----------



## R Harkness

Folks:

I have a JVC RS600 projector and plan on buying the Lumagen pro at some point. It would do my video switching but I'm most interested in it providing the best UHD/HDR performance for my projector.

I have both the original Oppo UHD player and the original Panasonic flagship UHD player. I was going to sell the Panny and keep the Oppo, but I happened upon this old video comparison of the two brands:






The side by side photo examples - at 4:06 and 4:42 - to my eyes really do show an advantage for the Panasonic (better at chroma information?).

I don't know if any firmware helped the Oppo later on in that regard. But if one is using the Lumagen Pro, would the Panasonic still retain that picture advantage? Or will the Lumagen be processing the picture so such performance differences between the Oppo and Panny would be moot?

Thanks.


----------



## bjorg

R Harkness said:


> Folks:
> 
> I have a JVC RS600 projector and plan on buying the Lumagen pro at some point. It would do my video switching but I'm most interested in it providing the best UHD/HDR performance for my projector.
> 
> I have both the original Oppo UHD player and the original Panasonic flagship UHD player. I was going to sell the Panny and keep the Oppo, but I happened upon this old video comparison of the two brands:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The side by side photo examples - at 4:06 and 4:42 - to my eyes really do show an advantage for the Panasonic (better at chroma information?).
> 
> I don't know if any firmware helped the Oppo later on in that regard. But if one is using the Lumagen Pro, would the Panasonic still retain that picture advantage? Or will the Lumagen be processing the picture so such performance differences between the Oppo and Panny would be moot?
> 
> Thanks.


I think it's hard to beat the Oppo. It has other "benefits" that make it the ideal as a HT player, IMHO.


----------



## MOberhardt

ARROW-AV said:


> He has a Christie Griffyn AS. RGB laser projectors can achieve >96% of BT.2020. However, in all but a few this comes with undesirable Laser Speckle video artifacts. The Christie Griffyn AS typically measures 98 - 100% of BT.2020 and is one of the few which has no Laser Speckle whatsoever. Mike's unit IIRC measures over 99% of BT.2020. The Christie Eclipse is another and the upcoming Christie M 4K25 AS is another.


Crikeys if I ever come across a stack of money I'll get one of these...


----------



## OzHDHT

R Harkness said:


> Folks:
> 
> I have a JVC RS600 projector and plan on buying the Lumagen pro at some point. It would do my video switching but I'm most interested in it providing the best UHD/HDR performance for my projector.
> 
> I have both the original Oppo UHD player and the original Panasonic flagship UHD player. I was going to sell the Panny and keep the Oppo, but I happened upon this old video comparison of the two brands:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The side by side photo examples - at 4:06 and 4:42 - to my eyes really do show an advantage for the Panasonic (better at chroma information?).
> 
> I don't know if any firmware helped the Oppo later on in that regard. But if one is using the Lumagen Pro, would the Panasonic still retain that picture advantage? Or will the Lumagen be processing the picture so such performance differences between the Oppo and Panny would be moot?
> 
> Thanks.


I sold my Oppo to a mate when I got a UB9000. Also have a UB820 in my other setup as per my sig.


----------



## woofer

bjorg said:


> I think it's hard to beat the Oppo. It has other "benefits" that make it the ideal as a HT player, IMHO.


Yep...VERY hard..

I have the Oppo,s ( 1x 203) and ( 2x 205,s ) , had the UB9000 and Reavon X200 ...sold the UB9000 ( worst of the lot ) and also sold the Reavon X200.

Oppo provides the cleanest most pure , image!!!


----------



## 187crew003

With the lumagen get a cheap Sony (to send native non upscale signal). Once the lumagen does the processing the disc player is just a transport.


----------



## tigerhonaker

woofer said:


> Yep...VERY hard..
> 
> I have the Oppo,s ( 1x 203) and ( 2x 205,s ) , had the UB9000 and Reavon X200 ...sold the UB9000 ( worst of the lot ) and also sold the Reavon X200.
> 
> Oppo provides the cleanest most pure , image!!!


Hi Woofer,

Interesting that you prefer the OPPO over the newer models.

Be safe buddy
Terry


----------



## Nima

The Panasonic player do a more agressive chroma upscaling. You have to reduce chroma sharpening in the panasonic to -4 or something to get a more neutral chroma upsampling representation. The Oppo is not perfect but I prefer that to overly aggressive.


----------



## R Harkness

Thanks for the replies! Much appreciated


----------



## jrp

raullopez1234 said:


> @jrp is instantaneous aspect detection in the works or planned in the future.


We have had "speeding up aspect detection" on the list for a number of years. Just has not risen up the priority list.

Let me say again you definitely should _not_ use any auto-aspect feature within an iMAX movie when viewing on an anamorphic screen. Totally at odds with the director's intent (if you saw these in an anamorphic screen theater it was all anamorphic as it should be). If you want to see the aspect changes, select 16:9 to watch the movie. While I _absolutely hate_ aspect changes within movies at least selecting 16:9 you will be within the director's iMAX marketing design. Of course the director gets to do what they want. I just think the current iMAX mode is fundamentally wrong. The entire movie should have been shot 16:9 "protected for anamorphic screens." Then it could have been shown as 16:9 iMAX without the distracting aspect changes, and in an anamorphic theater as anamorphic.

We can certainly reduce the time-delay hysteresis in the Radiance Pro auto aspect. It was initially put in to deal with issues with an analog sources not having good black levels. I do not think "instant" is actually a good goal since it should only be used at the start and end of content, and it is important to be certain a 16:9 image does not appear to be a 2.40 image due to black at the top of the image.


----------



## raullopez1234

jrp said:


> We have had "speeding up aspect detection" on the list for a number of years. Just has not risen up the priority list.
> 
> Let me say again you definitely should _not_ use any auto-aspect feature within an iMAX movie when viewing on an anamorphic screen. Totally at odds with the director's intent (if you saw these in an anamorphic screen theater it was all anamorphic as it should be). If you want to see the aspect changes, select 16:9 to watch the movie. While I _absolutely hate_ aspect changes within movies at least selecting 16:9 you will be within the director's iMAX marketing design. Of course the director gets to do what they want. I just think the current iMAX mode is fundamentally wrong. The entire movie should have been shot 16:9 "protected for anamorphic screens." Then it could have been shown as 16:9 iMAX without the distracting aspect changes, and in an anamorphic theater as anamorphic.
> 
> We can certainly reduce the time-delay hysteresis in the Radiance Pro auto aspect. It was initially put in to deal with issues with an analog sources not having good black levels. I do not think "instant" is actually a good goal since it should only be used at the start and end of content, and it is important to be certain a 16:9 image does not appear to be a 2.40 image due to black at the top of the image.


Thank you very much for that explanation Jim , you make valid points . Let's forget I ever brought this up and dedicate the engineering time on something more important.


----------



## MOberhardt

woofer said:


> Yep...VERY hard..
> 
> I have the Oppo,s ( 1x 203) and ( 2x 205,s ) , had the UB9000 and Reavon X200 ...sold the UB9000 ( worst of the lot ) and also sold the Reavon X200.
> 
> Oppo provides the cleanest most pure , image!!!


I watch a lot of subtitled films so to be honest the only time I fire up my oppo is if I want to play external subtitles. I just find it annoying not having the subtitle control on the Panasonic.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> the aspect changes, select 16:9 to watch the movie. While I _absolutely hate_ aspect changes within movies at least selecting 16:9 you will be within the director's iMAX marketing design. Of course the director gets to do what they want. I just think the current iMAX mode is fundamentally wrong. The entire movie should have been shot 16:9 "protected for anamorphic screens." Then it could have been shown as 16:9 iMAX without the distracting aspect changes, and in an anamorphic theater as anamorphic.


Share your sentiments in this "aspect". It's extremely annoying. If want to go IMAX, go for full IMAX at 16:9.


----------



## Drexler

jrp said:


> We have had "speeding up aspect detection" on the list for a number of years. Just has not risen up the priority list.
> 
> Let me say again you definitely should _not_ use any auto-aspect feature within an iMAX movie when viewing on an anamorphic screen. Totally at odds with the director's intent (if you saw these in an anamorphic screen theater it was all anamorphic as it should be). If you want to see the aspect changes, select 16:9 to watch the movie. While I _absolutely hate_ aspect changes within movies at least selecting 16:9 you will be within the director's iMAX marketing design. Of course the director gets to do what they want. I just think the current iMAX mode is fundamentally wrong. The entire movie should have been shot 16:9 "protected for anamorphic screens." Then it could have been shown as 16:9 iMAX without the distracting aspect changes, and in an anamorphic theater as anamorphic.
> 
> We can certainly reduce the time-delay hysteresis in the Radiance Pro auto aspect. It was initially put in to deal with issues with an analog sources not having good black levels. I do not think "instant" is actually a good goal since it should only be used at the start and end of content, and it is important to be certain a 16:9 image does not appear to be a 2.40 image due to black at the top of the image.


I understand the concerns and the thinking wanting to give iMAX more impact than scope. Still, I would really appreciate having the option to allow much quicker (and preferably instant) aspect ratio changes. It would just give such a smooth experience when shifting from the menus or trailers and then going seamlessly into full scope format. Also, sometimes it seems to get stuck and doesn't shift for several minutes, which can be a bit annoying.

In addition, in series like "the Expanse", they normally use 2.0:1 format for space/spacecraft scenes and then shift to scope when they show scenes on a planet. I didn't mind shifting between the formats and its impact on the scenes, but the time delay made it a bit of a jarring experience. I didn't want to lock it into 16:9 or 2.35:1 either since the first made everything smaller with grey bars around the entire image, and the second was chopping off peoples foreheads. I suppose it's possible to lock it into 2.0:1 as well, but I couldn't figure out how to do that...

But to finish on bright note, I think the automatic aspect ratio change is brilliant! Absolutely love it. It would just be even (much!) more brilliant if it was instant like MadVR. 😀

Maybe it would be possible to have an option to set the delay, then that would work for everyone?


----------



## Hoi

I have been using the 5348 model for almost a year now, having all of my input devices connected to it. What features would I be missing if I connected the input devices through my pre-amp pro? I don't have any issues with the recommended setup but I do miss not being able to see the OSD from my Marantz.


----------



## Michael-S

Drexler said:


> I understand the concerns and the thinking wanting to give iMAX more impact than scope. Still, I would really appreciate having the option to allow much quicker (and preferably instant) aspect ratio changes. It would just give such a smooth experience when shifting from the menus or trailers and then going seamlessly into full scope format. Also, sometimes it seems to get stuck and doesn't shift for several minutes, which can be a bit annoying.
> 
> In addition, in series like "the Expanse", they normally use 2.0:1 format for space/spacecraft scenes and then shift to scope when they show scenes on a planet. I didn't mind shifting between the formats and its impact on the scenes, but the time delay made it a bit of a jarring experience. I didn't want to lock it into 16:9 or 2.35:1 either since the first made everything smaller with grey bars around the entire image, and the second was chopping of peoples foreheads. I suppose it's possible to lock it into 2.0:1 as well, but I couldn't figure out how to do that...
> 
> But to finish on bright note, I think the automatic aspect ratio change is brilliant! Absolutely love it. It would just be even (much!) more brilliant if it was instant like MadVR. 😀
> 
> Maybe it would be possible to have an option to set the delay, then that would work for everyone?





jrp said:


> We have had "speeding up aspect detection" on the list for a number of years. Just has not risen up the priority list.
> 
> Let me say again you definitely should _not_ use any auto-aspect feature within an iMAX movie when viewing on an anamorphic screen. Totally at odds with the director's intent (if you saw these in an anamorphic screen theater it was all anamorphic as it should be). If you want to see the aspect changes, select 16:9 to watch the movie. While I _absolutely hate_ aspect changes within movies at least selecting 16:9 you will be within the director's iMAX marketing design. Of course the director gets to do what they want. I just think the current iMAX mode is fundamentally wrong. The entire movie should have been shot 16:9 "protected for anamorphic screens." Then it could have been shown as 16:9 iMAX without the distracting aspect changes, and in an anamorphic theater as anamorphic.
> 
> We can certainly reduce the time-delay hysteresis in the Radiance Pro auto aspect. It was initially put in to deal with issues with an analog sources not having good black levels. I do not think "instant" is actually a good goal since it should only be used at the start and end of content, and it is important to be certain a 16:9 image does not appear to be a 2.40 image due to black at the top of the image.


The Expanse is one, but not the only, example where I long for perceptibly instant AR change. I don't have an opinion on the manner in which aspect ratios are implemented by content creators and providers, I simply want my solutions (in this case LRP) to adjust seamlessly.

I don't limit my viewing to movies; my projector is in fact my TV. As such, aspect ratio changes are frequent in the normal course of viewing. I truly love my LRP, but I wish it did "instant" AR changes.


----------



## Kris Deering

There is really no way it can be instant for most purposes. Its best chance of being instant is only in cases where the frame is clearly visible so it knows what the aspect is (remember, the content is not reporting anything the Lumagen can use) and even then the only way it could be "instant" is if the Lumagen is pre-buffering a large number of frames ahead of time to make the change instant. Due to the size of 4K image frames, this won't happen. Also, the more "instant" it is, the more likelihood of false detections that may cause more distraction than the roughly 3 second delay you get with most content now. 

We could go on and on about our opinions of programs/movies that have shifting aspect ratios. Thankfully there is still a low number of them, but it is increasingly getting worse over the years for sure. I think it is a ridiculous trend that panders to television viewing conditions which make the aspect shifts a moot issue. But then again I also understand that most studios/directors realize that the amount of people out there with scope screens is infinitesimal compared to that market (if they even think about this market at all).


----------



## Nima

@Kris Deering @jrp 

I am not having any blips with my JVC NZ8 and Firmware 1.20 anymore (over 2 weeks now). Things that I changed was putting color space to 4.2.2 and Video Range to Limited from the default JVC settings.

And I had changed the HDMI microcode in the Lumagen to the alternative one. Knock on wood so far so good.


----------



## Kris Deering

Would love to say that would fix it for everyone else, but I already run my system with the colorspace and range set that way in the JVC. I have also tried both of the EDID methods and still had the problem crop up (this was actually one of the first things I ever tried). Glad to hear it is working well in your setup though!

We are pretty sure that it is edge rate related at this point. We can make it worse or better by increasing/decreasing edge rates, so it has to do with the sensitivity on the input side of the JVC after their HDMI changes. Hopefully it can be addressed.


----------



## EVH78

Nima said:


> @Kris Deering @jrp
> 
> I am not having any blips with my JVC NZ8 and Firmware 1.20 anymore (over 2 weeks now). Things that I changed was putting color space to 4.2.2 and Video Range to Limited from the default JVC settings.
> 
> And I had changed the HDMI microcode in the Lumagen to the alternative one. Knock on wood so far so good.





Kris Deering said:


> Would love to say that would fix it for everyone else, but I already run my system with the colorspace and range set that way in the JVC. I have also tried both of the EDID methods and still had the problem crop up (this was actually one of the first things I ever tried). Glad to hear it is working well in your setup though!
> 
> We are pretty sure that it is edge rate related at this point. We can make it worse or better by increasing/decreasing edge rates, so it has to do with the sensitivity on the input side of the JVC after their HDMI changes. Hopefully it can be addressed.


Is there really no way to avoid it? No workarounds found yet? I really cannot see myself never being able to upgrade to new JVC FW from now on.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> There is really no way it can be instant for most purposes. Its best chance of being instant is only in cases where the frame is clearly visible so it knows what the aspect is (remember, the content is not reporting anything the Lumagen can use) and even then the only way it could be "instant" is if the Lumagen is pre-buffering a large number of frames ahead of time to make the change instant. Due to the size of 4K image frames, this won't happen. Also, the more "instant" it is, the more likelihood of false detections that may cause more distraction than the roughly 3 second delay you get with most content now.


You're mostly right. It's hard to detect the location of the borders. However, it's much easier to detect when there are none. There is no reason that it takes long at all when the image "opens up" to 16:9, but it should take a while for it to narrow down to 2.30 again. I don't think the adjustment time has be the same in both cases.


----------



## Kris Deering

EVH78 said:


> Is there really no way to avoid it? No workarounds found yet? I really cannot see myself never being able to upgrade to new JVC FW from now on.


JVC has a lot on their plate at the moment so I am not sure it is high on the list. JVC USA has been able to reproduce the issue but I’m not sure if Japan has even looked at it yet. They are the ones that have to diagnose and fix. There is a very simple workaround already and hopeful at some point there will be new firmware from JVC that makes this a non issue going forward.


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> There is a very simple workaround already and hopeful at some point there will be new firmware from JVC that makes this a non issue going forward.


What is that workaround?


----------



## Kris Deering

EVH78 said:


> What is that workaround?


Loading the JVC firmware that Lumagen has a link to.


----------



## thebland

This iMax insta-multi-aspect wish list seems rather useless to me... unless you have a 4 way masking system where the 'cropped' image can become taller (and more dramatic - as intended) as it is in small the hand full of commercial theaters which can accommodate such or you have horizontal masking (which means the majority of your viewing (scope) would likely be compromised to accommodate the vertical height a massive 1.78 screen). For example, the new Buzz 'Lightyear' movie apparently will make 3 aspect changes, 1.43, 1.90. and 2.40. Imagine the 4:3 masked iMax image at home shrinking the viewing area by almost 1/3 or 1/2 on a 2.40 or 1.78 screen, respectively. Sorta dumb if you ask me. In a home environment, with with a scope or 1.78 screen (and not 4 way masking system or massive 4:3 screen with horizontal masking), it seems completely useless and a hassle. Pick an aspect and stick to it (as was suggested by the head honcho here).


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> You're mostly right. It's hard to detect the location of the borders. However, it's much easier to detect when there are none. There is no reason that it takes long at all when the image "opens up" to 16:9, but it should take a while for it to narrow down to 2.30 again. I don't think the adjustment time has be the same in both cases.


Since the the Lumagen auto-aspect was implemented many years ago when analog sources were in play, the "content" at the top of the source for analog anamorphic material was often analog video noise. Switching back to 16:9 due to video noise was a significant issue.

I do want to implement a "fast" auto-aspect mode for the Radiance Pro. This new mode will target digital content. So, it will no longer need to allow for analog video noise. This in turn will allow us make the auto-aspect detection faster. Going from a higher aspect (e.g. 2.40) to a smaller one (e.g. 16:9) can be very fast. However, I believe we should have appropriate hysteresis delay for "fade-in from black," and other possible "black at the top of the image" cases going from a lower to a higher aspect. While not common, we did see these cases when we were developing the auto-aspect feature. We definitely want to avoid the "double change" case caused by a false detect. Even so, this can still be much quicker for a "digital source only" auto-aspect algorithm.


----------



## HTTR17

Was reading the setup slides for lumagen setting of video black. Was curious, what influences the video black level?

Meaning is it the display (jvc) in my case, the source player (Apple TV, uhd player), or the lumagen itself? The content being played?


----------



## Mark Burton

Kris Deering said:


> Would love to say that would fix it for everyone else, but I already run my system with the colorspace and range set that way in the JVC. I have also tried both of the EDID methods and still had the problem crop up (this was actually one of the first things I ever tried). Glad to hear it is working well in your setup though!
> 
> We are pretty sure that it is edge rate related at this point. We can make it worse or better by increasing/decreasing edge rates, so it has to do with the sensitivity on the input side of the JVC after their HDMI changes. Hopefully it can be addressed.


This sounds so so similar to the audio drop issues that some of us get whilst others don’t.

not sure this is a coincidence.

since putting the Dr HDMI between my lumagen and trinnov my drops are clearly less often, probably every 3-5 films whereas it was previously every film.


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> Loading the JVC firmware that Lumagen has a link to.


Sure. I thought you knew a workaround with the current NZ line fw.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

Hi Guys,

Anyone experienced the same problem? Any truehd sources Lumagen doesn't pass through receiver is not receiving it, the rest works fine, receiver X8500HA, cabel length is 6 meters

Sent from my M2011K2C using Tapatalk


----------



## Mikesterz

After upgrading to a 5348 from a 4446 (and not changing any cable or equipment) I’ve immediately started experiencing hdmi video sync issues. It happens all the time and sometimes the Alt, Prev doesn’t fix it. I already changed cables a few times. I believe there’s a setting I can try. Maybe it’s genlock. Also thinking I should change my boot sequence. Perhaps the altitude and projector should start up first. Anyone else had the same issue and resolved it? My audio is fine, it’s just the video. Output 3 for video and 1 for audio. ABV.


----------



## dlinsley

SoulOfUniverse said:


> Anyone experienced the same problem? Any truehd sources Lumagen doesn't pass through receiver is not receiving it, the rest works fine, receiver X8500HA, cabel length is 6 meters


Was it working and now it doesn't? Do you have the Common Audio modes set? There is a menu option for that or press Menu 0943.


----------



## Mark_H

thebland said:


> This iMax insta-multi-aspect wish list seems rather useless to me... Pick an aspect and stick to it


That would be fine if there were no consequences to doing so. But too many films use "too much" of the 4:3 image such that if you stick with 2.35 on your scope screen, you end up cropping head and feet. Sticking with a 4:3 image throughout, you end up with the majority of the film displayed 33% smaller than you want if you have a scope screen. The best solution is auto-aspect switching so that you lose nothing. I find the use of multi-aspect ratios, when used effectively (NOT Tenet!!) actually enhances the viewing experience. Let the user decide... what's useless to you is important to others.


----------



## SoulOfUniverse

dlinsley said:


> Was it working and now it doesn't? Do you have the Common Audio modes set? There is a menu option for that or press Menu 0943.


Hi Dlinsley,

I think its my hdmi long cable low quality, just ordered a RUIPRO 4K 10 meters cable and I am pretty sure it will resolve the issue.
I use Kodi running on Nvidia Shield 4K, and I believe there was a glitch for Kodi not using the packer correctly it used Android packer and I believe didn't send RAW audio signal correctly, now it works but due to cable, sometimes it cannot recognize the TrueHD correctly, will test again with recomended cable and report here.

Thank you.


----------



## thebland

Mark_H said:


> That would be fine if there were no consequences to doing so. But too many films use "too much" of the 4:3 image such that if you stick with 2.35 on your scope screen, you end up cropping head and feet. Sticking with a 4:3 image throughout, you end up with the majority of the film displayed 33% smaller than you want if you have a scope screen. The best solution is auto-aspect switching so that you lose nothing. I find the use of multi-aspect ratios, when used effectively (NOT Tenet!!) actually enhances the viewing experience. Let the user decide... what's useless to you is important to others.


*RE: iMax for Home*

Let’s agree to disagree. The whole benefit of IMAX is when it goes in the 4 x 3 the screen (and image) becomes huge and more impactful. If you’re using a scope screen or 16:9 screen that masks down to 4:3 for that impactful moment, The 4:3 image becomes minuscule… Sort of defeats the entire purpose. I’ll say it again: you need a four-way masking system with a large screen or a very large 4:3 screen with horizontal masks to replicate the intended iMax effect. IMAX is best experienced at the theater. Not on a small Home Screen where you intentionally minimize the 4:3 image that should be towering in person. Some things can’t properly be replicated at home.

_Consequently, the net translation of iMax at home actually accomplishes the inverse or opposite of what is intended (and delivered) at the iMax theater! _


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> Let’s agree to disagree. The whole benefit of IMAX is when it goes in the 4 x 3 the screen (and image) becomes huge and more impactful. If you’re using a scope screen or 16:9 screen that masks down to 4:3 for that impactful moment, The 4:3 image becomes minuscule… Sort of defeats the entire purpose. I’ll say it again: you need a four-way masking system with a large screen or a very large 4:3 screen with horizontal masks to replicate the intended iMax effect. IMAX is best experienced at the theater. Not on a small Home Screen where you intentionally minimize the 4:3 image that should be towering in person. Some things can’t properly be replicated at home.


Agree. Which is why there are quite a few directors who have said specifically they never intended the IMAX aspect ratio for home delivery despite studios doing so. It is a cash grab for sure, with a side of pandering to the flat panel market (which makes it a non issue). I have zero issue with it if they deliver both aspects (at least Disney Plus has done this with their Marvel movies), but that isn't always the case. Nolan's films are typically scope safe, so I haven't had much issue there either.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. Which is why there are quite a few directors who have said specifically they never intended the IMAX aspect ratio for home delivery despite studios doing so. It is a cash grab for sure, with a side of pandering to the flat panel market (which makes it a non issue). I have zero issue with it if they deliver both aspects (at least Disney Plus has done this with their Marvel movies), but that isn't always the case. Nolan's films are typically scope safe, so I haven't had much issue there either.


This may shock you, but there do exist 16x9 front projector home theater screens.

For scope screens, it would still be nice to have the choice.


----------



## MOberhardt

DigitalAV said:


> This may shock you, but there do exist 16x9 front projector home theater screens.
> 
> For scope screens, it would still be nice to have the choice.


Yeah, I'm 16:9. Aside from the fact the half of my viewing is 16:9, with my room, if I went scope, the screen would be the same width. All I'd get going scope is a much much worse 16:9 image and exactly the same scope image. Makes zero sense doing it.


----------



## thebland

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah, I'm 16:9. Aside from the fact the half of my viewing is 16:9, with my room, if I went scope, the screen would be the same width. All I'd get going scope is a much much worse 16:9 image and exactly the same scope image. Makes zero sense doing it.


Not worse - shorter width than scope !

But even if you have a 16:9 screen, the 4:3 iMax image is shrunk to fit it - defeating its purpose.


----------



## fatherom

thebland said:


> Not worse - shorter width than scope !
> 
> But even if you have a 16:9 screen, the 4:3 iMax image is shrunk to fit it - defeating its purpose.


I own pretty much all of the currently available aspect ratio switching content. The overwhelming majority goes from scope to an aspect ratio like 1.78:1 or 1.9:1. 

Batman vs superman is one title that has a few 4:3 imax scenes. 

In most cases, the imax jump from less impactful to more impactful works well on a 16:9 screen. Obviously nothing compares to a true imax theater. I miss the theater in reading, massachusetts I would go to. 

I have a 16:9 screen (128” diag). When the imax films open up taller, it’s pretty impressive. I’m also worth constrained in my room which is why I went with 16:9.


----------



## HTTR17

HTTR17 said:


> Was reading the setup slides for lumagen setting of video black. Was curious, what influences the video black level?
> 
> Meaning is it the display (jvc) in my case, the source player (Apple TV, uhd player), or the lumagen itself? The content being played?


Sorry to bother, but anyone know this one? Just wondering if I need to calibrate digital black per source or just one time and use it for all sources?

Thanks,


----------



## jrp

HTTR17 said:


> Was reading the setup slides for lumagen setting of video black. Was curious, what influences the video black level?
> 
> Meaning is it the display (jvc) in my case, the source player (Apple TV, uhd player), or the lumagen itself? The content being played?


Setting video black is an adjustment to compensate for variabilities in optical and digital black levels in TVs and projectors. At this time I believe sources all deliver the correct "digital black level" (16 for 8-bit, and 64 for 10-bit, content). So this only needs to account for the display or projector.

Years ago I figured out that rather than one adjustment for Black Level there needed to be both an optical, and a digital, black level. The "Optical Black Level" for a TV or projector is the darkest black they can generate. You set this first using the Radiance Pro slide set instructions.

Once you have the optical black level set, you then need to figure out which digital level correctly reproduces the optical black level. This I call the "Digital Black Level." Check the setup slide set for how to set digital black.

At this time JVC and Sony projectors have good Optical-Black set from the factory to the best of my knowledge. So while it is good to check, often no adjustment is needed for these (and potentially other modern projectors and TVs). Similarly they have good Digital-Black-Levels. So, again in general this is a "check to be sure" step.

For completeness I have again attached the current Radiance Pro Setup Slide Set.


----------



## HTTR17

Thanks!

I followed your steps for optical black and it was set right at 0. Will confirm the digital black.

I noticed on 16x9 content the video black was visibly brighter than vs the sides on a 2.40 screen. I'm assuming this is a bad source level? As I can't remember if it's like that for all movies/shows. So thought it would be good to confirm digital black.


----------



## jrp

HTTR17 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I followed your steps for optical black and it was set right at 0. Will confirm the digital black.
> 
> I noticed on 16x9 content the video black was visibly brighter than vs the sides on a 2.40 screen. I'm assuming this is a bad source level? As I can't remember if it's like that for all movies/shows. So thought it would be good to confirm digital black.


I have seen the actual levels from content often be in the range of 78 (for 10-bit HDR where true black is code value 64). When HDR first came out, this appears to be the reason people thought that we needed to have a mode to eliminate these mastering error.

If all content had this same error, you could set the "Digital Black" using content. However, I do not believe this is the case. I have in the past recommended people setup a second Input Memory with the Digital Black in the Radiance Pro Input Memory (say MEMB) is lowered based on this errant content. So, you would then use MEMA for correctly mastered content, and MEMB for the errant "not true black" content.

You need to be careful with this since you could "crush" dark detail if you reduce the Black Level in the Pro Input Memory when ithe content has details below code value 78-ish.


----------



## HTTR17

Makes sense.

When using the lumagen pattern to set digital black as referenced on the slide. Should I try to adjust it before the first line of the four above black dims any (if needed at all)? Or should I lower it to just be visible?

Thanks and sorry for the basic questions.


----------



## jrp

HTTR17 said:


> When using the lumagen pattern to set digital black as referenced on the slide. Should I try to adjust it before the first line of the four above black dims any (if needed at all)? Or should I lower it to just be visible?


The four bars to the right of the center vertical black strip are 1%, 2%, 3%, and 4%. I try to make the 1% bar just to the right of center "barely visible" compared to black.

==== 

You might queue up the HDR version of "The Revenant" at 0:20:00 (if memory serves) where the trappers son is by the tree (after setting up the HDR Max Light and other HDR settings). You can then bring up the "Black" level control in the active CMS (CMS1 for HDR by default), and adjust using this scene. The maximum level in this scene is about 7 nits. You should be able to make out the details in the son's shirt, and the tree bark, but not bring the Black Level up such the dark background is visible as above black.

I like this scene since it has excellent detail in the "below 1%" range and actually should be better than using the "Contrast 2" pattern since it has this very dark detail.


----------



## HTTR17

Great, thanks


----------



## Mark_H

thebland said:


> *RE: iMax for Home*
> 
> Let’s agree to disagree.


Let's not; that is always an unsatisfying denouement to a failed argument. You moved the goalposts away from the point I was making, so let me try to clarify.



> The whole benefit of IMAX is when it goes in the 4 x 3 the screen (and image) becomes huge and more impactful. If you’re using a scope screen or 16:9 screen that masks down to 4:3 for that impactful moment, The 4:3 image becomes minuscule… Sort of defeats the entire purpose.


I agree. I understand what they are attempting to achieve, and I recognise it doesn't translate well to a scope screen in a home cinema. But that is what is delivered and so it has to be managed. I find your proposed scope masking solution unsatisfying because you are diminishing the impact of the majority of the film by framing it in a smaller 16:9 frame in order to preserve the impact of the 4:3 interludes. I want to do the opposite, recognising that a compromise is necessary; preserve the majority and handle the minority. Or, if we stick with a fixed scoped aspect, as previously noted, and contrary to Kris's subsequent point about 4:3 frames being safe, this is not always the case. Watch Tenet, for instance, in a fixed 2.35:1 presentation and you will see heads and feet being cropped in the 4:3 sequences. The best compromise, _for me_, is auto-aspect: 2.35 material, the majority of the film, is presented at full scale, and the IMAX sequences are fully preserved, albeit on a smaller scale.



> I’ll say it again: you need a four-way masking system with a large screen or a very large 4:3 screen with horizontal masks to replicate the intended iMax effect. IMAX is best experienced at the theater. Not on a small Home Screen where you intentionally minimize the 4:3 image that should be towering in person. Some things can’t properly be replicated at home.


I have a 4-way masking system, and a relatively large screen for a home cinema and still my preferred method of viewing is as described above. And here we reach the fundamental point I am arguing: you are telling me how I should watch my films. _*That's not your call*._ And so it's not something we can agree to disagree on.



> _Consequently, the net translation of iMax at home actually accomplishes the inverse or opposite of what is intended (and delivered) at the iMax theater! _


Agreed, but as above it is what is delivered and so has to be managed.


----------



## Drexler

Mark_H said:


> Let's not; that is always an unsatisfying denouement to a failed argument. You moved the goalposts away from the point I was making, so let me try to clarify.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I understand what they are attempting to achieve, and I recognise it doesn't translate well to a scope screen in a home cinema. But that is what is delivered and so it has to be managed. I find your proposed scope masking solution unsatisfying because you are diminishing the impact of the majority of the film by framing it in a smaller 16:9 frame in order to preserve the impact of the 4:3 interludes. I want to do the opposite, recognising that a compromise is necessary; preserve the majority and handle the minority. Or, if we stick with a fixed scoped aspect, as previously noted, and contrary to Kris's subsequent point about 4:3 frames being safe, this is not always the case. Watch Tenet, for instance, in a fixed 2.35:1 presentation and you will see heads and feet being cropped in the 4:3 sequences. The best compromise, _for me_, is auto-aspect: 2.35 material, the majority of the film, is presented at full scale, and the IMAX sequences are fully preserved, albeit on a smaller scale.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 4-way masking system, and a relatively large screen for a home cinema and still my preferred method of viewing is as described above. And here we reach the fundamental point I am arguing: you are telling me how I should watch my films. _*That's not your call*._ And so it's not something we can agree to disagree on.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but as above it is what is delivered and so has to be managed.


I would also like to add that it's not only iMAX films, but it has really become prevalent in tv series as well. And in many cases it seems more like a way to differentiate between epochs/planets/whatever rather than trying to give one more impact than the other. Case in point, the Expanse.

And as Mark eloquently puts it: it should be the viewers choice - after all he is the one who has to suffer through it. 😀

I get that there could be technical challanges, but we already have proof that it's possible with MadVR, which has what looks like instant aspect ratio changes. There is a video on youtube that shows it. Check out (from 2:20 onwards) "MadVR Envy part 2: Auto aspect ratio switching..."


----------



## desray2k

Here's hoping that the beta release of the firmware will be coming soon...The last Alpha firmware is very good, at least for me, I never encounter any issue.


----------



## Mark_H

Drexler said:


> I would also like to add that it's not only iMAX films, but it has really become prevalent in tv series as well. And in many cases it seems more like a way to differentiate between epochs/planets/whatever rather than trying to give one more impact than the other. Case in point, the Expanse.


The Expanse uses aspect ratios well. Another great example is The Grand Tour on Amazon. Most of the material with the three presenters is in 16:9, the small scale perfectly suiting the studios they use or the interior shots of cars etc, but when they switch to the stunning outdoor segments with their grand vistas, they switch to 2.35:1 which gives an impressive sense of scale to the material. This use of different aspect ratios is very successful in delivering a dynamic viewing experience.


----------



## Kris Deering

The problem I have with The Expanse and Grand Tour is that they are designed for TV viewing specifically. They understand exactly what their medium is and work for it. It has nothing to do with home cinema or cinema in general.

Theatrical films are shot at different WIDTHS with the only exception being imax which is because they have theaters designed for more height. This isn’t how home theaters are designed. A 16x9 screen is a compromise for movie playback unless you are already maxed out for width and even then you are still undoing the point of scope vs academy.

As for Tenet, I would watch at 2.2 as intended and as shown in all theaters outside of imax.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> The problem I have with The Expanse and Grand Tour is that they are designed for TV viewing specifically. They understand exactly what their medium is and work for it. It has nothing to do with home cinema or cinema in general.


When you're right you're right



Kris Deering said:


> Theatrical films are shot at different WIDTHS with the only exception being imax which is because they have theaters designed for more height. This isn’t how home theaters are designed.


Hold on there, Kubrick. Height can be just as much as a factor -- Joss Whedon shot The Avengers, one of the biggest popcorn tent poles in recent memory, specifically non-scope because of height (I like to give specific examples to my arguments)



Kris Deering said:


> A 16x9 screen is a compromise for movie playback unless you are already maxed out for width and even then you are still undoing the point of scope vs academy.
> 
> As for Tenet, I would watch at 2.2 as intended and as shown in all theaters outside of imax.


Well hello, mister fancy pants


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> The problem I have with The Expanse and Grand Tour is that they are designed for TV viewing specifically. They understand exactly what their medium is and work for it. It has nothing to do with home cinema or cinema in general.


Sure. But now you want to display these TV shows in your home cinema anyway. They look superb on a big screen and you get a great surround sound experience too. Not using the home cinema is not an option - being too precious, ie our home cinemas are only for films, would be self defeating. So now you have exactly the same problem as with multi-aspect ratio movies: how best to display them? Which brings us full circle back to _*it's the users choice*_...

Paraphrasing, JRP recently suggested that he feels a faster auto-aspect function is doable (I never had any doubt!) and desirable (it is!), so this aspect ratio discussion could well be a redundant topic soon enough...


----------



## Mark_H

Is it time we changed the name from Home Cinema to Screening Room? That would effectively remove the trap of focussing on just film. I'm guessing, but it seems likely most of us are watching more than just films in our rooms and that there is an increasing trend towards viewing non-film stuff. Would be very interesting to see a poll on viewing habits...


----------



## OzHDHT

I've called my main HT a media room for quite a while, seems to cover all bases .


----------



## Mark Burton

Mark_H said:


> Would be very interesting to see a poll on viewing habits..


I’ll start. 99% movies, 1% other stuff.


----------



## Drexler

Maybe something like this: 35% movies, 50% tv-series, 10% football, 5% regular tv (mostly music programs, current events/news/politics).

All on a 2.40:1 screen.


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## Mark_H

OK, so for me it's currently 30% film / 70% other. Five years ago it would have been 90% film/10% other. Looking at my IMDb profile I've rated almost 3000 movies now, spanning the history of film - there's not much left to catch up on and most of modern filmmaking bores me, especially the endless sequels and now requels. TV (as in streaming services) is where I'm currently focussed and where I find the most enjoyment.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> As for Tenet, I would watch at 2.2


See: user choice!


----------



## asharma

Deleted


----------



## Michael-S

Mark_H said:


> Is it time we changed the name from Home Cinema to Screening Room? That would effectively remove the trap of focussing on just film. I'm guessing, but it seems likely most of us are watching more than just films in our rooms and that there is an increasing trend towards viewing non-film stuff. Would be very interesting to see a poll on viewing habits...


95% not movies
4.9% movies from Kaleidescape
.1% movies on disc


----------



## thebland

95% Kaleidescape
5% Everything else (no gaming)


----------



## Erod

25% movies
25% series (like Ozark)
20% sports (higher during football season)
20% Youtube
5% regular TV
5% gaming

Clearly, a 16:9 screen is best for me, and I believe I'm pretty typical. With JVC projectors, the black bars are no big deal.


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## 187crew003

100% movies


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Sure. But now you want to display these TV shows in your home cinema anyway. They look superb on a big screen and you get a great surround sound experience too. Not using the home cinema is not an option - being too precious, ie our home cinemas are only for films, would be self defeating. So now you have exactly the same problem as with multi-aspect ratio movies: how best to display them? Which brings us full circle back to _*it's the users choice*_...
> 
> Paraphrasing, JRP recently suggested that he feels a faster auto-aspect function is doable (I never had any doubt!) and desirable (it is!), so this aspect ratio discussion could well be a redundant topic soon enough...


I agree 100% it is the user's choice, I have never said it shouldn't be. The thing I keep thinking about is aspect ratio. Even with shows developed for TV, the intent is to have a WIDER presentation with widescreen films than the others, even if they can't achieve it with a standard 16x9 screen. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do scope in the frame. IMAX is the ONLY format designed to actually be a taller aspect, all others are setup for width (despite most people not having the option for a wider image as intended). It is perplexing why some decisions are made by content providers to be honest. And 99% of the IMAX stuff we are getting today is just open matte, it isn't nearly the same thing as 15/70 vertically shot content. Clearly the scope presentations of these are framing preferences by the filmmakers, otherwise they could have released these as 1.78 for ALL cinema presentations (which is further backed by direct filmmaker commentary). 

I feel like most of these forums consist of 16x9 display owners that are complaining that they have black bars and just want their picture filled. As a scope screen owner it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I don't fill the width because I am watching the framing PROPERLY for all aspects shown. The ONLY exception is IMAX, which to me is a completely marketing gimmick outside of IMAX theaters, so I just don't care and crop it to intended NON-IMAX aspect. 

As you said, Lumagen allows anyone to do anything they want at the end of the day. Right now it is just the less than first world problem of aspect changes taking 3-4 seconds when people seem to want it to be instant or near instant. I can only imagine how hard life is for those using lens memories. Aspect lock in my system is typically faster than the projector locking onto the signal more often than not. I can think of many other things I would rather see focused on personally. I'm just waiting to see the complaints when faster switching turns into more false detects.


----------



## Michael-S

Kris Deering said:


> ... I'm just waiting to see the complaints when faster switching turns into more false detects.


I'm one who wants faster switching. I also assume that getting it wouldn't preclude me from choosing the status quo detection. In other words, could it not be made configurable? Choice=good, if nothing is lost in the offering.


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## asharma

Hi folks…question regarding high ratio setting…is there a reason why it should not be set to -31 for maximum light for bright highlights? Is there a downside? Thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

asharma said:


> Hi folks…question regarding high ratio setting…is there a reason why it should not be set to -31 for maximum light for bright highlights? Is there a downside? Thanks


I think there is a misunderstanding on how dynamic tone mapping works. Highlights cannot be any brighter than the projectors max output on your screen. NOTHING will change that in the settings, though the DPAD can effect it because of padding to avoid clipping. With tone mapping you are really just balancing how you are using the range you have. Some people still continue to think that HDR is about being bright when the actual name tells you it is about HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE. That means a lot of difference between the lowest light of the signal to the highest light of the signal. Most people seem to think it should be bright and therefore run settings that actually COMPRESS the image to make everything brighter, which actually lowers the dynamic range in any given signal. 

The high ratio setting is designed to let the tone map know how much range you want to give the tone map. The higher the number, the more range. But the image will look darker overall as you are trying to give more latitude from high to low. The brightness of highlights are not changing, the balance of the brightness of the entire image is. 

Another way to think about it is projectors. Let's take a JVC, a Sony and a standard DLP. Lets make them all 100 nits. Now if you just thought about brightness they are all the same, but we know that is not true. There is substantially more information in the JVC, followed by the Sony and then the DLP. You hit a point in the image curve where the DLP stops, then the Sony then the JVC. This is why I am always shaking my head when I see people say that sequential contrast tells you nothing but black. That is a clear indication of a lack of understanding when it comes to video. In this case the JVC has a lower black, but it ALSO has all the levels from its black to the next projector's black to help PROPERLY display values that would fall in that area (and this doesn't even get into gamma limits). Think about it another way, lets think about it as each projector is a stairway going from the ground up to 100 stories (100 nits). If you were walking down the stairs and hit the DLP floor, you still have a long way to go until you get to the ground (0 nits), then you hit Sony's floor and then JVC's. If you were walking those stairs, those "missing" steps would be quite important just like they are in video. 

Ultimately you want the most dynamic range you can achieve in your setup so that the image can have good separation through its range. This is what the format is all about. It isn't about being bright unless you have a display that can actually separate the peak from the floor (which is why it looks bright in the first place). The more range you have, the more the optical comparisons being done by your eyes on the screen look like HDR.

Outside of all my mumbling, there is no HIGH RATIO setting, there is only max light. That it typically represented by a nit value. LOW RATIO is a number value that also correlates to a nit value (shown below as you change it) that is telling the tone map what range to display as 1:1 values when the video levels are contained in that range.


----------



## asharma

Kris Deering said:


> I think there is a misunderstanding on how dynamic tone mapping works. Highlights cannot be any brighter than the projectors max output on your screen. NOTHING will change that in the settings, though the DPAD can effect it because of padding to avoid clipping. With tone mapping you are really just balancing how you are using the range you have. Some people still continue to think that HDR is about being bright when the actual name tells you it is about HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE. That means a lot of difference between the lowest light of the signal to the highest light of the signal. Most people seem to think it should be bright and therefore run settings that actually COMPRESS the image to make everything brighter, which actually lowers the dynamic range in any given signal.
> 
> The high ratio setting is designed to let the tone map know how much range you want to give the tone map. The higher the number, the more range. But the image will look darker overall as you are trying to give more latitude from high to low. The brightness of highlights are not changing, the balance of the brightness of the entire image is.
> 
> Another way to think about it is projectors. Let's take a JVC, a Sony and a standard DLP. Lets make them all 100 nits. Now if you just thought about brightness they are all the same, but we know that is not true. There is substantially more information in the JVC, followed by the Sony and then the DLP. You hit a point in the image curve where the DLP stops, then the Sony then the JVC. This is why I am always shaking my head when I see people say that sequential contrast tells you nothing but black. That is a clear indication of a lack of understanding when it comes to video. In this case the JVC has a lower black, but it ALSO has all the levels from its black to the next projector's black to help PROPERLY display values that would fall in that area (and this doesn't even get into gamma limits). Think about it another way, lets think about it as each projector is a stairway going from the ground up to 100 stories (100 nits). If you were walking down the stairs and hit the DLP floor, you still have a long way to go until you get to the ground (0 nits), then you hit Sony's floor and then JVC's. If you were walking those stairs, those "missing" steps would be quite important just like they are in video.
> 
> Ultimately you want the most dynamic range you can achieve in your setup so that the image can have good separation through its range. This is what the format is all about. It isn't about being bright unless you have a display that can actually separate the peak from the floor (which is why it looks bright in the first place). The more range you have, the more the optical comparisons being done by your eyes on the screen look like HDR.
> 
> Outside of all my mumbling, there is no HIGH RATIO setting, there is only max light. That it typically represented by a nit value. LOW RATIO is a number value that also correlates to a nit value (shown below as you change it) that is telling the tone map what range to display as 1:1 values when the video levels are contained in that range.


Thanks Kris, I should have chosen my words more carefully…How about “is there a reason high ratio should not be set to -31 for maximum dynamic range?” There is a high ratio value that goes from -31 to +31 when the temp service menu is enabled…My understanding was if you back the high ratio down towards -31, it will increase the effective dynamic range for the given highlight separate and aside from the MaxLight setting…I do understand the projector can’t just create more light and finally I reserve the right to be totally wrong AGAIN 😉


----------



## edthomp

I have a little bit of confusion so hopefully I will be able to at least articulate my question in a non-confused way.

My understanding is that SDR has a desired target of 15ftL and HDR has a desired target of 30ftL.

For HDR, I used the Spears and Munsil disk at 1,000 Luminance with BT.2020 (using the Advanced video -> Contrast Ratio Tab -> Sequentntial: On - 100% white pattern) to adjust the lamp power and aperture to measure the combination that got me to a ftL of ~30.

However, when it came time to do the same for SDR, I got confused. With SDR, the Lumagen is taking the 709 color space as an input and apparently doing a conversion, and outputting the BT.2020 color space. So, does that conversion negate the 15 ftL target for SDR? Asked another way, for the purposes of a target ftL should I just think of both SDR and HDR inputs as an output of BT.2020, so really the desired target should be 30 ftL for both?


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Right now it is just the less than first world problem of aspect changes taking 3-4 seconds when people seem to want it to be instant or near instant.


I don't think it is >just< that; I find the single (I think) false-scaling frame that happens on scaling (and hence aspect) change more jarring than the delay (personally), even if it was faster in its current guise I wouldn't use it in AR changing content as-is as it would still break the presentation. At the moment the AR detection is slow enough that really I think you have to be a bit of a masochist to use it with frequent AR switching content. As soon as you make it detect faster, and people use it in that way with AR switching content; the unclean AR switch will become much more apparent and more of a problem; I don't really see the value in speeding it up without also tidying it up. Of course, that is an artifact that more often than not is also hidden by display sync speed if you're just using AR detection as it was originally envisaged, so mostly a non-issue when used as intended (though I do find it a "non-premium feeling" annoyance when using the manual zoom control).

Having said that, I probably wouldn't use it anyway, as I have the benefit of top/bottom masks I can just leave open for AR changing content.



Kris Deering said:


> I'm just waiting to see the complaints when faster switching turns into more false detects.


I think one way to counter false detections to some extent could be to extend the use of the video delay; so you could choose (if not a gamer) to have a few more frames of analysis in hand before applying the chosen aspect to the frames coming out of the delay buffer on the other end.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> I don't really see the value in speeding it up without also tidying it up


Both are needed. There are times where auto-aspect fails to detect the change, for instance. I'm certain these issues will be addressed when Lumagen find the time to work on the auto-aspect.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I'm just waiting to see the complaints when faster switching turns into more false detects.


Have a little faith in Lumagen... Jim and Patrick have shown us time and time, and time again, that they can deliver when they set their minds on something. There may well be teething issues to resolve, but the resulting auto-aspect _will_ be considerably better than what we currently have.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> As a scope screen owner it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I don't fill the width because I am watching the framing PROPERLY for all aspects shown.


Yes, once again you are exercising your choice; and indeed it's the [only] way to preserve director intent. It's not my choice, however. Which makes me realise I share your consternation over production choices relating to aspect ratios. But, hey, that's _their_ choice


----------



## alv

I have been borrowing a Windows laptop for updating software as I am a make user. I am now inheriting an old one with VISTA. What is the procedure for figuring out ports and baud rate? I'm a Apple guy and would appreciate any help.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> I agree 100% it is the user's choice, I have never said it shouldn't be. The thing I keep thinking about is aspect ratio. Even with shows developed for TV, the intent is to have a WIDER presentation with widescreen films than the others, even if they can't achieve it with a standard 16x9 screen. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do scope in the frame. IMAX is the ONLY format designed to actually be a taller aspect, all others are setup for width (despite most people not having the option for a wider image as intended). It is perplexing why some decisions are made by content providers to be honest. And 99% of the IMAX stuff we are getting today is just open matte, it isn't nearly the same thing as 15/70 vertically shot content. Clearly the scope presentations of these are framing preferences by the filmmakers, otherwise they could have released these as 1.78 for ALL cinema presentations (which is further backed by direct filmmaker commentary).
> 
> I feel like most of these forums consist of 16x9 display owners that are complaining that they have black bars and just want their picture filled. As a scope screen owner it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I don't fill the width because I am watching the framing PROPERLY for all aspects shown. The ONLY exception is IMAX, which to me is a completely marketing gimmick outside of IMAX theaters, so I just don't care and crop it to intended NON-IMAX aspect.
> 
> As you said, Lumagen allows anyone to do anything they want at the end of the day. Right now it is just the less than first world problem of aspect changes taking 3-4 seconds when people seem to want it to be instant or near instant. I can only imagine how hard life is for those using lens memories. Aspect lock in my system is typically faster than the projector locking onto the signal more often than not. I can think of many other things I would rather see focused on personally. I'm just waiting to see the complaints when faster switching turns into more false detects.


We are headed at light speed to an all-streaming world, and that will mean 16:9 content will eventually become the norm for cinema most likely. 

Now if we can just get the Director's Choice screen at Stewart down below the $10K mark.....that would solve everything.


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> We are headed at light speed to an all-streaming world, and that will mean 16:9 content will eventually become the norm for cinema most likely.
> 
> Now if we can just get the Director's Choice screen at Stewart down below the $10K mark.....that would solve everything.


I don’t agree at all. Streaming will not dictate aspect ratio. We’ve already seen that across multiple platforms that don’t release theatrically.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t agree at all. Streaming will not dictate aspect ratio.


Agreed. Aspect ratios are just another creative tool and we are already seeing streaming platforms embrace them. No surprise at all.


----------



## sjschaff

ALV:

I have been borrowing a Windows laptop for updating software as I am a make user. I am now inheriting an old one with VISTA. What is the procedure for figuring out ports and baud rate? I'm a Apple guy and would appreciate any help.
-----------------------
Try netstat –an and if you wish to have the com ports show up in device manager, see if the attached helps

And if you don't see it try:

"You can add the Ports manually via Control panel "Add Hardware". In the Add Hardware wizard choose the option "Install the hardware that I manually select from a list (Advanced)" then click the "Next" button. Under "Common hardware types" scroll down and clilck on Ports (COM & LPT) click the "Next" button and complete the wizard."


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> Outside of all my mumbling, there is no HIGH RATIO setting, there is only max light. That it typically represented by a nit value. LOW RATIO is a number value that also correlates to a nit value (shown below as you change it) that is telling the tone map what range to display as 1:1 values when the video levels are contained in that range.


This might be a big piece of the puzzle I've been missing. Since I use a video wall which is 1,000 nits capable, I've not been able to just apply the generally recommended settings and have been fumbling in the dark a bit (pun intended).

If I understand you correctly, MaxLight is the content nits at which the display should be saturated in brightness. Anything above this value will be crushed. Did I get this right?

LowRatio defines the range where brightness is mapped 1:1. Anything above the reported LowRatio nits is tone mapped (?) until it reaches MaxLight at which point it's just truncated.

Assuming this is correct (probalby not), doesn't the RP also need to know what the effective max brightness is? So that MaxLight maps to it?


----------



## alv

Thanks. sjschaff. That is what I was forgetting how to do when I set up my borrowed computer with help.


----------



## thebland

Erod said:


> We are headed at light speed to an all-streaming world, and that will mean 16:9 content will eventually become the norm for cinema most likely.
> 
> Now if we can just get the Director's Choice screen at Stewart down below the $10K mark.....that would solve everything.


 Cost is one thing but you have to have a really tall room. My room is 12' tall but not tall enough for a Director's Cut system (if you want a large scope picture).


----------



## Erod

thebland said:


> Cost is one thing but you have to have a really tall room. My room is 12' tall but not tall enough for a Director's Cut system (if you want a large scope picture).


Same here. My room is only 14 feet wide and 12 feet tall. I'm sure the mechanical part of it takes a lot of room.


----------



## bobof

Erod said:


> Same here. My room is only 14 feet wide and 12 feet tall. I'm sure the mechanical part of it takes a lot of room.


On my Screen Research the masks fit into a 4" screen border. They're on rollers.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> This might be a big piece of the puzzle I've been missing. Since I use a video wall which is 1,000 nits capable, I've not been able to just apply the generally recommended settings and have been fumbling in the dark a bit (pun intended).
> 
> If I understand you correctly, MaxLight is the content nits at which the display should be saturated in brightness. Anything above this value will be crushed. Did I get this right?
> 
> LowRatio defines the range where brightness is mapped 1:1. Anything above the reported LowRatio nits is tone mapped (?) until it reaches MaxLight at which point it's just truncated.
> 
> Assuming this is correct (probalby not), doesn't the RP also need to know what the effective max brightness is? So that MaxLight maps to it?


Max light is not defining the peak of the video or the display, it is establishing how much headroom you give for the tone map. Think of it as an emulation of light. I think the general guideline from Lumagen is 6x's your displays peak white for displays at or near 100 nits. As you move up from there (in your range), you would use a much lower multiplier because your display has so much light available to it. If you have 1000 nits peak white (truly have this), I would start with a low multiplier and see what you think.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> Max light is not defining the peak of the video or the display, it is establishing how much headroom you give for the tone map. Think of it as an emulation of light. I think the general guideline from Lumagen is 6x's your displays peak white for displays at or near 100 nits. As you move up from there (in your range), you would use a much lower multiplier because your display has so much light available to it. If you have 1000 nits peak white (truly have this), I would start with a low multiplier and see what you think.


I haven't measured the output, but the spec says 1,000 nits: ZRD-2 - Micro-LED Modular Wall Display Unit - Sony Pro. So, hopefully, it's reasonably close to it.

I keep playing around with the settings. I've tried (MaxLight: 2000, LowRatio: 24) and (MaxLight: 1500, LowRatio: 0). They are comparable in low lit details. I use this K-script to consistently loop over the same test material: Lumagen RadiancePro DTM Script

As far as I can tell, the more I go above 1,000 for MaxLight, the less bright the overall image becomes. Similarly, the higher LowRatio, the brighter dark scenes become.

This iPad Pro photo was taken with LowRatio 0 and MaxLight 1500. For my next iteration, I'm thinking to raise MaxLight until the background almost vanishes and the tree bark is barely visible.

But a nagging question looms: what am I missing out by keeping LowRatio at 0?

Any suggestions on how to achieve the optimal outcome?


----------



## bjorg

I changed my approach a bit. Instead of setting the MaxLight to a multiple of the max nits and then playing with LowRatio, I decided to fix LowRatio to 31. If I recall correct, that was the recommended value by Jim. From there, I adjusted MaxLight until the lower bound was in the 800 range.

The final result is (MaxLight: 3,300, LowRatio: 31). That gives me a nits L/H of 844/3300.

Going to test drive for a few days to see how I like it.


----------



## alv

How close to Beta version of new software?


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> I changed my approach a bit. Instead of setting the MaxLight to a multiple of the max nits and then playing with LowRatio, I decided to fix LowRatio to 31. If I recall correct, that was the recommended value by Jim. From there, I adjusted MaxLight until the lower bound was in the 800 range.
> 
> The final result is (MaxLight: 3,300, LowRatio: 31). That gives me a nits L/H of 844/3300.
> 
> Going to test drive for a few days to see how I like it.


I think your low ratio can move so that you are 1:1 with your peak, though setting it to 844 does leave some headroom in case your display doesn't actually go to 1000. I'd look at the scene in The Meg that Jim has mentioned many times to look at your max light, it it a good scene for extreme peaks and APL.


----------



## edthomp

edthomp said:


> I have a little bit of confusion so hopefully I will be able to at least articulate my question in a non-confused way.
> 
> My understanding is that SDR has a desired target of 15ftL and HDR has a desired target of 30ftL.
> 
> For HDR, I used the Spears and Munsil disk at 1,000 Luminance with BT.2020 (using the Advanced video -> Contrast Ratio Tab -> Sequentntial: On - 100% white pattern) to adjust the lamp power and aperture to measure the combination that got me to a ftL of ~30.
> 
> However, when it came time to do the same for SDR, I got confused. With SDR, the Lumagen is taking the 709 color space as an input and apparently doing a conversion, and outputting the BT.2020 color space. So, does that conversion negate the 15 ftL target for SDR? Asked another way, for the purposes of a target ftL should I just think of both SDR and HDR inputs as an output of BT.2020, so really the desired target should be 30 ftL for both?


I think I found the partial answer:

From (Optimizing Your Projector for HDR): 

He goes on to say, "I use the SDR setup of a projector for HDR when I have a source like a Lumagen processor or one of the better Panasonic UHD Blu-ray players to do the tone mapping for HDR. In fact, both of those sources do a better job of tone mapping than just about any projector on the market." In that case, you would calibrate an SDR mode to 100 nits (or whatever the projector's true peak light output is) and let the processor or player do the tone mapping.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> I think your low ratio can move so that you are 1:1 with your peak, though setting it to 844 does leave some headroom in case your display doesn't actually go to 1000. I'd look at the scene in The Meg that Jim has mentioned many times to look at your max light, it it a good scene for extreme peaks and APL.


Any by moving LowRatio, do you mean that the "L" value is closer to 1,000? And should I do that by increasing MaxLight (vs. decreasing LowRatio)?

I use _The Meg_ scene in my K-script, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for other than how bright the display becomes. I can see the clouds and the sky and the skin tones look natural. What exactly am I aiming for here?


----------



## ccool96

Kris Deering said:


> I agree 100% it is the user's choice, I have never said it shouldn't be. The thing I keep thinking about is aspect ratio. Even with shows developed for TV, the intent is to have a WIDER presentation with widescreen films than the others, even if they can't achieve it with a standard 16x9 screen. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do scope in the frame. IMAX is the ONLY format designed to actually be a taller aspect, all others are setup for width (despite most people not having the option for a wider image as intended). It is perplexing why some decisions are made by content providers to be honest. And 99% of the IMAX stuff we are getting today is just open matte, it isn't nearly the same thing as 15/70 vertically shot content. Clearly the scope presentations of these are framing preferences by the filmmakers, otherwise they could have released these as 1.78 for ALL cinema presentations (which is further backed by direct filmmaker commentary).
> 
> I feel like most of these forums consist of 16x9 display owners that are complaining that they have black bars and just want their picture filled. As a scope screen owner it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I don't fill the width because I am watching the framing PROPERLY for all aspects shown. The ONLY exception is IMAX, which to me is a completely marketing gimmick outside of IMAX theaters, so I just don't care and crop it to intended NON-IMAX aspect.
> 
> As you said, Lumagen allows anyone to do anything they want at the end of the day. Right now it is just the less than first world problem of aspect changes taking 3-4 seconds when people seem to want it to be instant or near instant. I can only imagine how hard life is for those using lens memories. Aspect lock in my system is typically faster than the projector locking onto the signal more often than not. I can think of many other things I would rather see focused on personally. I'm just waiting to see the complaints when faster switching turns into more false detects.


One of the best investments I made for my home theater was a 14’ x 7’ 4-way masking Director’s Choice screen back in 2010. 

My theater has seen numerous projector upgrades over the past 12 years, but the screen remains.

It gives me proper masking for 2.40, 2.0, 1.85, 1.78, 1.33, or any other aspect. 

My viewing has changed quite a bit over the past decade. It use to be about 50% DirecTV sports (1.78 aspect) and 50% Blu-ray movies (2.40 aspect)

Now it’s more like 25% DirecTV and 50% AppleTV (for streaming shows like Netflix, Hulu, or Disney+ Original series with varying aspect ratios) and 25% Kaleidescape (mostly 2.40 aspect). 

Im watching a lot more streaming content and it does varies in aspect ratio quite a bit more. I watch a lot of 2.0 aspect content now, in addition to 16:9 and 2:40. 

Having Auto Aspect detection on the Lumagen is one of my favorite features. The Lumagen determines the correct aspect and adjusts the image accordingly, and then relays that info to Control4 which then automatically adjust the masking to correctly match the content. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## blake

ccool96 said:


> One of the best investments I made for my home theater was a 14’ x 7’ 4-way masking Director’s Choice screen back in 2010.
> 
> My theater has seen numerous projector upgrades over the past 12 years, but the screen remains.
> 
> It gives me proper masking for 2.40, 2.0, 1.85, 1.78, 1.33, or any other aspect.
> 
> My viewing has changed quite a bit over the past decade. It use to be about 50% DirecTV sports (1.78 aspect) and 50% Blu-ray movies (2.40 aspect)
> 
> Now it’s more like 25% DirecTV and 50% AppleTV (for streaming shows like Netflix, Hulu, or Disney+ Original series with varying aspect ratios) and 25% Kaleidescape (mostly 2.40 aspect).
> 
> Im watching a lot more streaming content and it does varies in aspect ratio quite a bit more. I watch a lot of 2.0 aspect content now, in addition to 16:9 and 2:40.
> 
> Having Auto Aspect detection on the Lumagen is one of my favorite features. The Lumagen determines the correct aspect and adjusts the image accordingly, and then relays that info to Control4 which then automatically adjust the masking to correctly match the content.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


What do you do to prevent a simple pause or fast forward on Apple TV from causing the masks to immediately move to 16:9 ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

ccool96 said:


> Having Auto Aspect detection on the Lumagen is one of my favorite features. The Lumagen determines the correct aspect.


Agreed, and not quite (for others; I think you know this): Auto-Aspect, particularly tied in with auto-masking is amazing, but the Lumagen groups aspect ratios into a limited number of "buckets", so some common aspect ratios, eg 1.66:1, are not reported and still require manual intervention. Hopefully Lumagen will find a way to extend the reporting/buckets so more/actual aspect ratios can be reported for us auto-maskers to use.



blake said:


> What do you do to prevent a simple pause or fast forward on Apple TV from causing the masks to immediately move to 16:9 ?


You can either allow it, or it's easy enough to program the control system with a button that toggles auto-masking on/off; so, you know you're about to pull up a menu which would trigger the masks and you hit the toggle button, then pull up the menu, and once finished hit the toggle button again. 

It's also a great example of the power of auto-aspect during a scope screening; being able to pull up a 4:3 menu on a scope display and have auto-aspect quickly reframe so you can see the entire menu, then quickly flip back to scope when the menu is exited.


----------



## alv

I now have a borrowed computer. Do I need to install a driver? It is a clunky VISTA computer.


----------



## dlinsley

alv said:


> I now have a borrowed computer. Do I need to install a driver? It is a clunky VISTA computer.


If the Radiance is plugged into the computer via USB, in the sys tray it should pop up that a device is installing or needs a driver. If it does not, go to Windows Update and it may download a driver. Otherwise, the old FTDI driver packages are here: D2XX Drivers - FTDI (ftdichip.com)


----------



## riddle

Hi, JVC jus released a new firmware for the NZ v1.21 series. Can someone please test if thats problem with Lumagen was already been solved?









Firmware Download for D-ILA Projector DLA-NZ9, DLA-NZ8, DLA-NZ7, DLA-NP5, DLA-RS4100, DLA-RS3100, DLA-RS2100, DLA-RS1100, DLA-N118, DLA-N98, DLA-N88, DLA-N80, DLA-N78, DLA-N77, DLA-N70


Firmware Download for D-ILA Projector DLA-NZ9, DLA-NZ8, DLA-NZ7, DLA-NP5, DLA-RS4100, DLA-RS3100, DLA-RS2100, DLA-RS1100, DLA-N118, DLA-N98, DLA-N88, DLA-N80, DLA-N78, DLA-N77, DLA-N70



www.jvc.com


----------



## alv

thanks for the information.


----------



## alv

Which of the drivers? I am not Windows savvy.


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> Hi, JVC jus released a new firmware for the NZ v1.21 series. Can someone please test if thats problem with Lumagen was already been solved?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firmware Download for D-ILA Projector DLA-NZ9, DLA-NZ8, DLA-NZ7, DLA-NP5, DLA-RS4100, DLA-RS3100, DLA-RS2100, DLA-RS1100, DLA-N118, DLA-N98, DLA-N88, DLA-N80, DLA-N78, DLA-N77, DLA-N70
> 
> 
> Firmware Download for D-ILA Projector DLA-NZ9, DLA-NZ8, DLA-NZ7, DLA-NP5, DLA-RS4100, DLA-RS3100, DLA-RS2100, DLA-RS1100, DLA-N118, DLA-N98, DLA-N88, DLA-N80, DLA-N78, DLA-N77, DLA-N70
> 
> 
> 
> www.jvc.com


This firmware has nothing to do with that, JVC Japan hasn't even started looking at that issue yet.


----------



## dlinsley

alv said:


> Which of the drivers? I am not Windows savvy.


If you search for Vista on that page (there are only 3 hits, and only one in the driver listings), I would think this one:

​
Windows XP, Vista, Server 2003, Server 20082012-04-132.08.242.08.24––––––WHQL Certified
Also available as a
setup executable
Release notes
This is FTDI’s final release before Microsoft stopped certifying drivers for these versions of Windows.


I would also open Device Manager (sorry, I can't remember how to do this on Vista. I've not used it since 7 Beta in 2008. I think in Control Panel) and see if under Ports the FTDI chip in the Lumagen is already showing up as installed and what COM port it is currently identifying as.


----------



## alv

I had tried but failed to find that! Thanks again.


----------



## Mikesterz

Is anyone getting 10 or 12 bit color from a gaming PC to the radiance pro? I’m not getting that option in windows 11 unless I drop the resolution down to 1080p.


----------



## bobof

Mikesterz said:


> Is anyone getting 10 or 12 bit color from a gaming PC to the radiance pro? I’m not getting that option in windows 11 unless I drop the resolution down to 1080p.


What refresh rate and output format are you running? With RGB, 10/12 bit can only be supported at 24p over 18G HDMI.


----------



## MattTN

Can anybody tell me what HDR settings you use on a Lumagen with a JVC projector? I have an NX7, and I cannot get a straight answer for the life of me despite searching online.

Thank you kindly to anyone taking the time to answer.


----------



## alv

*dlinsley; thanks for the help. I think I successfully have the old inherited laptop ready for when the new software if ready.*


----------



## mkohman

I have sat and watched a full movie after the new v1.21 firmware and I can confirm I haven't seen the magenta glitch with my Lumagen RP 5348. I believe this new firmware may have sorted that issue 👍


----------



## Gordon Fraser

MattTN said:


> Can anybody tell me what HDR settings you use on a Lumagen with a JVC projector? I have an NX7, and I cannot get a straight answer for the life of me despite searching online.
> 
> Thank you kindly to anyone taking the time to answer.


Well, for a start i'd go to whoever sold you the Lumagen and ask them for some support. If you bought the unit s/h i'd suggest finding a calibrator in your area who has experience of Lumagen. The issue is that there are multiple ways to set up a lumagen with a JVC projector and it depends on many factors. So there is not a one size fits all solution.


----------



## dlinsley

alv said:


> *dlinsley; thanks for the help. I think I successfully have the old inherited laptop ready for when the new software if ready.*


If you haven't already, download the Radiance Configuration program from Lumagen. You can test your serial connection by downloading (backing up) your existing configuration from your Radiance.


----------



## EVH78

mkohman said:


> I have sat and watched a full movie after the new v1.21 firmware and I can confirm I haven't seen the magenta glitch with my Lumagen RP 5348. I believe this new firmware may have sorted that issue 👍


Unfortunately not. Magenta glitch is still there with 1.21!


----------



## mkohman

EVH78 said:


> Unfortunately not. Magenta glitch is still there with 1.21!


This may be the case of course but I didn't see it once last night so I'll keep an eye out for it and report back. 

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## EVH78

mkohman said:


> This may be the case of course but I didn't see it once last night so I'll keep an eye out for it and report back.
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


I played a movie last night on my Zappiti and it was immediately there. Then the same thing happened with my Sky receiver. So I gave up and watched Death on the Nile on Disney, the entire movie had no glitch using my Apple TV (last gen) ! 

Maybe others can chime in here if it is source a related problem.


----------



## MattTN

Gordon Fraser said:


> Well, for a start i'd go to whoever sold you the Lumagen and ask them for some support. If you bought the unit s/h i'd suggest finding a calibrator in your area who has experience of Lumagen. The issue is that there are multiple ways to set up a lumagen with a JVC projector and it depends on many factors. So there is not a one size fits all solution.


Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, I did reach out to my authorized seller, and I also live in an area where I basically have to learn and program myself.


----------



## alv

I believe people like Chris Deering can be hired to do much of the setup over the phone. I bought mine from a ISF calibrated who did that for me. Essentially an hour on the phone (my projector was already calibrated) got the LRP working well. Then I learned enough to tweak it from there, but those where small.


----------



## Kris Deering

alv said:


> I believe people like Chris Deering can be hired to do much of the setup over the phone. I bought mine from a ISF calibrated who did that for me. Essentially an hour on the phone (my projector was already calibrated) got the LRP working well. Then I learned enough to tweak it from there, but those where small.


I don't waste people's time on the phone. I build fully customized configuration files that the client can load onto the Lumagen that make it fully plug and play with their system. I also provide full setup instructions for the display and input sources so they are not guessing on those either. These are all included when they buy a Lumagen through me (unit is shipped out fully configured), but I offer the same thing for those that procured from other dealers or second hand.


----------



## asharma

MattTN said:


> Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, I did reach out to my authorized seller, and I also live in an area where I basically have to learn and program myself.


As per Kris’s note above, I procured privately and paid Kris to build my config file…Works like a charm…


----------



## alv

That is even easier!


----------



## garyolearysteele

EVH78 said:


> Unfortunately not. Magenta glitch is still there with 1.21!


It may be worth everyone who has this issue opening a support ticket with JVC if not done so already. I know they are aware of it and have indicated they will do something, but with bug fixing there can be an element of he who shouts the loudest. Be nice to have the help desk manager helping move it along in order to close off tickets😀….


----------



## MattTN

asharma said:


> As per Kris’s note above, I procured privately and paid Kris to build my config file…Works like a charm…


Thanks. I bought a color sensor and am going to invest in Chromapure software.


----------



## asharma

MattTN said:


> Thanks. I bought a color sensor and am going to invest in Chromapure software.


That will help you with the calibration but I’m not sure it will help you with the many many many other settings for input, output, scaling etc…


----------



## alv

It's been a couple weeks since Alpha 3 with only limited bugs. Any word on the next version?


----------



## MattTN

asharma said:


> That will help you with the calibration but I’m not sure it will help you with the many many many other settings for input, output, scaling etc…


I have no issues with the menu.


----------



## jrp

We are close to releasing an Alpha 4 to registered Alpha testers.

Patrick has the design changes well in hand and is working on getting a full-speed synthesis run. Since this can take many days, and require some "timing-related-redesign," we do not have a good timeframe yet on when the release will occur. I would say it will likely be next week sometime.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> We are close to releasing an Alpha 4 to registered Alpha testers.
> 
> Patrick has the design changes well in hand and is working on getting a full-speed synthesis run. Since this can take many days, and require some "timing-related-redesign," we do not have a good timeframe yet on when the release will occur. I would say it will likely be next week sometime.


Hopefully this goes well and we will have the beta release.


----------



## patcub

MattTN said:


> Thanks. I bought a color sensor and am going to invest in Chromapure software.


Just to give you a heads up I would highly recommend Colourspace instead of Chromapure. I have a JVC NX7 and Radiance Pro 4242-18G. I went the Chromapure route as well thinking I could just perform the auto calibration using my i1Pro2 and i1Display Pro but it never really worked well. I later found out Chromapure isn’t really doing a true LUT, it is just doing estimated corrections on a per color basis. I always ended up with either a red or green over saturation with Chromapure. After months of work using different calibration software I’m finally happy with my results from Colourspace. The HTL version of the software does everything you need to profile your setup and load a 3D LUT to the Lumagen. If I had to do it all over again I would definitely save money and just go with Colourspace from the beginning. I also did a consultation with Craig Rounds and he helped me perform the HDR calibration. With how the JVC processes colors it is not a straightforward process of just hitting a button and having the software do all the work for you.


----------



## desray2k

MattTN said:


> Thanks. I bought a color sensor and am going to invest in Chromapure software.





patcub said:


> Just to give you a heads up I would highly recommend Colourspace instead of Chromapure. I have a JVC NX7 and Radiance Pro 4242-18G. I went the Chromapure route as well thinking I could just perform the auto calibration using my i1Pro2 and i1Display Pro but it never really worked well. I later found out Chromapure isn’t really doing a true LUT, it is just doing estimated corrections on a per color basis. I always ended up with either a red or green over saturation with Chromapure. After months of work using different calibration software I’m finally happy with my results from Colourspace. The HTL version of the software does everything you need to profile your setup and load a 3D LUT to the Lumagen. If I had to do it all over again I would definitely save money and just go with Colourspace from the beginning. I also did a consultation with Craig Rounds and he helped me perform the HDR calibration. With how the JVC processes colors it is not a straightforward process of just hitting a button and having the software do all the work for you.


I am using Chromapure for my calibration. My experience is different form yours as I'm using Sony VW995ES and I'm very pleased with the end results. 

A quick question, are you calibrating using SDR BT2020 gamut for HDR content on your JVC? Care to show a few screen captures of some HDR scenes from a movie or documentary here and let us have a look at the final result after using colorspace? Thanks.


----------



## MattTN

patcub said:


> Just to give you a heads up I would highly recommend Colourspace instead of Chromapure. I have a JVC NX7 and Radiance Pro 4242-18G. I went the Chromapure route as well thinking I could just perform the auto calibration using my i1Pro2 and i1Display Pro but it never really worked well. I later found out Chromapure isn’t really doing a true LUT, it is just doing estimated corrections on a per color basis. I always ended up with either a red or green over saturation with Chromapure. After months of work using different calibration software I’m finally happy with my results from Colourspace. The HTL version of the software does everything you need to profile your setup and load a 3D LUT to the Lumagen. If I had to do it all over again I would definitely save money and just go with Colourspace from the beginning. I also did a consultation with Craig Rounds and he helped me perform the HDR calibration. With how the JVC processes colors it is not a straightforward process of just hitting a button and having the software do all the work for you.


That’s some great info, thank you. I am interested in the Chromapure software simply for the keep the wife happy factor as Colourspace seemed to be priced a little steep. Especially after dropping 15k on new gear but I will be sure to give it another look.


----------



## giomania

MattTN said:


> That’s some great info, thank you. I am interested in the Chromapure software simply for the keep the wife happy factor as Colourspace seemed to be priced a little steep. Especially after dropping 15k on new gear.


As mentioned Chromapure is not the best investment of money. Since video calibration is a big learning curve,I would recommend using JVC AutoCal, which is free and works incredibly well. What probe did you purchase?

Mark


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobof

MattTN said:


> That’s some great info, thank you. I am interested in the Chromapure software simply for the keep the wife happy factor as Colourspace seemed to be priced a little steep. Especially after dropping 15k on new gear but I will be sure to give it another look.


I don't think there is that much between them in the pricing, you can probably get a bundle with the basic meter supporting Colourspace HTL and a meter for not that dissimilar money to the Chromapure + advanced autocal + meter, or SW only if you have a meter. I probably wouldn't let that difference be the deciding factor (particularly not considering the overall spend). 

You also have the option of just doing a rental on Colourspace. It's £65 for a 5-day rental of HTL.

Personally (having owned Chromapure 3 and now using Colourspace) I'd go with Colourspace every time. But it does have perhaps more of a learning curve.


----------



## patcub

desray2k said:


> I am using Chromapure for my calibration. My experience is different form yours as I'm using Sony VW995ES and I'm very pleased with the end results.
> 
> A quick question, are you calibrating using SDR BT2020 gamut for HDR content on your JVC? Care to show a few screen captures of some HDR scenes from a movie or documentary here and let us have a look at the final result after using colorspace? Thanks.


If you were able to get good results from Chromapure that’s great, not trying to knock your experience at all. But I just could not get good results no matter how many times I’ve tried. Some of it may have to do with how your Sony processes Rec2020 compared to the JVC, I’m not familiar with the Sonys. The JVCs apply some non linear processing even after setting the Color profile to off. I think after trying and learning about calibration for so long the method Colourspace uses makes the most sense for getting good results. I don’t remember what my post calibration delta Es were after using Chromapure but I highly doubt they were close to the 0.6 average I am able to get with Colourspace, even with HDR content.

As others have said there is more of a learning curve for Colourspace, but IMO after seeing the end results it is worth it. As for cost I don’t remember it being too different between Chromapure and Colourspace, especially when you add the advanced auto cal add on for Chromapure to take advantage of the capabilities of the Lumagen. Colourspace’s website was a little confusing figuring out what level of software to get but like I said before the HTL (cheapest home theater enthusiast option) has everything you need to use consumer level meters, use the Lumagen as a pattern generator, generate 1D+3D LUTs and upload them to the proper CMS in the Lumagen. I had also explored some of what Calman can do since I have their LG Home version for calibrating my OLEDs. While Calman is the slickest and easiest to use with their preset workflows, even it wasn’t as capable when it came to LUTs as Colourspace. And in order to upgrade Calman to where it can communicate with the Lumagen and properly upload a LUT it would cost thousands of dollars.

Unfortunately I’m away from my theater for the next week, otherwise I could try and take some pictures. Yes I do use SDR2020 for my HDR output (I guess technically I use SDH2020 because I use the HDR flag to switch the JVC to high lamp mode for HDR content). Anyways, just tryin to share my learnings after diving down the rabbit hole of home theater projector calibration.


----------



## desray2k

patcub said:


> If you were able to get good results from Chromapure that’s great, not trying to knock your experience at all. But I just could not get good results no matter how many times I’ve tried. Some of it may have to do with how your Sony processes Rec2020 compared to the JVC, I’m not familiar with the Sonys. The JVCs apply some non linear processing even after setting the Color profile to off. I think after trying and learning about calibration for so long the method Colourspace uses makes the most sense for getting good results. I don’t remember what my post calibration delta Es were after using Chromapure but I highly doubt they were close to the 0.6 average I am able to get with Colourspace, even with HDR content.
> 
> As others have said there is more of a learning curve for Colourspace, but IMO after seeing the end results it is worth it. As for cost I don’t remember it being too different between Chromapure and Colourspace, especially when you add the advanced auto cal add on for Chromapure to take advantage of the capabilities of the Lumagen. Colourspace’s website was a little confusing figuring out what level of software to get but like I said before the HTL (cheapest home theater enthusiast option) has everything you need to use consumer level meters, use the Lumagen as a pattern generator, generate 1D+3D LUTs and upload them to the proper CMS in the Lumagen. I had also explored some of what Calman can do since I have their LG Home version for calibrating my OLEDs. While Calman is the slickest and easiest to use with their preset workflows, even it wasn’t as capable when it came to LUTs as Colourspace. And in order to upgrade Calman to where it can communicate with the Lumagen and properly upload a LUT it would cost thousands of dollars.
> 
> Unfortunately I’m away from my theater for the next week, otherwise I could try and take some pictures. Yes I do use SDR2020 for my HDR output (I guess technically I use SDH2020 because I use the HDR flag to switch the JVC to high lamp mode for HDR content). Anyways, just tryin to share my learnings after diving down the rabbit hole of home theater projector calibration.


Look forward to the pics.


----------



## dlinsley

patcub said:


> in order to upgrade Calman to where it can communicate with the Lumagen and properly upload a LUT it would cost thousands of dollars.


There used to be an Enthusiast level for Calman, but they discontinued it - even dropped the annual maintenance option for existing customers - a few years ago. The initial deal was excellent, at $500 including a C6 meter back in 2011, but with the annual maintenance fee I think I spent another $6-700 before the new owners abandoned us.


----------



## MattTN

bobof said:


> I don't think there is that much between them in the pricing, you can probably get a bundle with the basic meter supporting Colourspace HTL and a meter for not that dissimilar money to the Chromapure + advanced autocal + meter, or SW only if you have a meter. I probably wouldn't let that difference be the deciding factor (particularly not considering the overall spend).
> 
> You also have the option of just doing a rental on Colourspace. It's £65 for a 5-day rental of HTL.
> 
> Personally (having owned Chromapure 3 and now using Colourspace) I'd go with Colourspace every time. But it does have perhaps more of a learning curve.


Thanks. I am taking a serious look at Colourspace now instead after reading your post and others. I guess the products seem a little confusing. So I would just go with the Colourspace HTL version and it would automatically integrate with the Lumagen?

Thanks.


----------



## Peule_P

dlinsley said:


> There used to be an Enthusiast level for Calman, but they discontinued it - even dropped the annual maintenance option for existing customers - a few years ago. The initial deal was excellent, at $500 including a C6 meter back in 2011, but with the annual maintenance fee I think I spent another $6-700 before the new owners abandoned us.


Still using this Home Enthusiast version myself and indeed support and updates have stopped.
Would I be missing out on something if I wouldn’t upgrade to a newer version or invest in colourspace?


----------



## bobof

MattTN said:


> Thanks. I am taking a serious look at Colourspace now instead after reading your post and others. I guess the products seem a little confusing. So I would just go with the Colourspace HTL version and it would automatically integrate with the Lumagen?
> 
> Thanks.


"Auomatically" is not a way I'd describe it (there are quite a few steps with Colourspace), but yes, HTL does have everything you need to operate consumer level meters and integrate with the Radiance, driving it as a pattern generator and uploading 3DLUTs to it.

Which sensor did you get? Note if you already bought a sensor and it is a retail-packaged X-rite/Calibrite sensor then there would be some workaround needed to get it working in Colourspace.


----------



## Sittler27

MattTN said:


> Thanks. I am taking a serious look at Colourspace now instead after reading your post and others. I guess the products seem a little confusing. So I would just go with the Colourspace HTL version and it would automatically integrate with the Lumagen?
> 
> Thanks.


Nothing is "automatic" when it comes to calibrating via any cal software and the Lumagen and your display (JVC NZ9 in my case).

Painstaking trial and error; HUGE amounts of awesome advice (Colourspace thread and Ted over email was a saviour particularly); and LOTS and LOTS of reading and learning over multiple calibration attempts have me finally able to calibrate my JVC NZ9, Lumagen 4242 with Colourspace and load 3D and 1D LUTs into the Lumagen into a consistently repeatable process.

Good luck - or, just use the JVC AC and get 80% there (but again, nothing is automatic no matter how much manufacturers say it is).


----------



## MOberhardt

Regards the power supply (Eg sourcing a 12V 5A linear PSU) what is the specification on the power connector you need to purchase for it? Eg 2.5mm Center Negative?


----------



## DigitalAV

bobof said:


> "Auomatically" is not a way I'd describe it (there are quite a few steps with Colourspace), but yes, HTL does have everything you need to operate consumer level meters and integrate with the Radiance, driving it as a pattern generator and uploading 3DLUTs to it.
> 
> Which sensor did you get? Note if you already bought a sensor and it is a retail-packaged X-rite/Calibrite sensor then there would be some workaround needed to get it working in Colourspace.


Are there any other considerations outside of following these guides? 









3D LUT Calibration


Display Calibration via 3D LUTs




www.lightillusion.com













Lumagen


Lumagen Radiance Video Processors




www.lightillusion.com


----------



## Sittler27

DigitalAV said:


> Are there any other considerations outside of following these guides?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3D LUT Calibration
> 
> 
> Display Calibration via 3D LUTs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lightillusion.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lumagen
> 
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Video Processors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lightillusion.com


Many....but it's a good start for reading.


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> Nothing is "automatic" when it comes to calibrating via any cal software and the Lumagen and your display (JVC NZ9 in my case).
> 
> Painstaking trial and error; HUGE amounts of awesome advice (Colourspace thread and Ted over email was a saviour particularly); and LOTS and LOTS of reading and learning over multiple calibration attempts have me finally able to calibrate my JVC NZ9, Lumagen 4242 with Colourspace and load 3D and 1D LUTs into the Lumagen into a consistently repeatable process.
> 
> Good luck - or, just use the JVC AC and get 80% there (but again, nothing is automatic no matter how much manufacturers say it is).


I would say from a calibration accuracy standpoint JVC's AC if done well (using two meters or profiled meters) gets you WAY more than 80% of the result you'd get from other solutions. We are talking more along the lines of 90-95%. There is improvement for sure, but I bet the difference would be almost imperceptible in normal viewing if compared directly.


----------



## DigitalAV

Sittler27 said:


> Many....but it's a good start for reading.


Like what? I don't mean for a particular projector brand, I'm saying in general


----------



## MattTN

bobof said:


> "Auomatically" is not a way I'd describe it (there are quite a few steps with Colourspace), but yes, HTL does have everything you need to operate consumer level meters and integrate with the Radiance, driving it as a pattern generator and uploading 3DLUTs to it.
> 
> Which sensor did you get? Note if you already bought a sensor and it is a retail-packaged X-rite/Calibrite sensor then there would be some workaround needed to get it working in Colourspace.


I did get a Calibrate Display Pro in retail packaging but now I am concerned about it working per your comments. 

Is the workaround easy?


----------



## bobof

MattTN said:


> I did get a Calibrate Display Pro in retail packaging but now I am concerned about it working per your comments.
> 
> Is the workaround easy?


I'll PM you.


----------



## mkohman

EVH78 said:


> I played a movie last night on my Zappiti and it was immediately there. Then the same thing happened with my Sky receiver. So I gave up and watched Death on the Nile on Disney, the entire movie had no glitch using my Apple TV (last gen) !
> 
> Maybe others can chime in here if it is source a related problem.


So I've watched 3 long movies since the update to v1.21 and not had 1 magenta glitch with my Lumagen. I am very confident that my issue is fixed. Its odd that it's not fixed yours? Maybe others with an NZ model and a Lumagen can chime in. All the best.. 

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> Regards the power supply (Eg sourcing a 12V 5A linear PSU) what is the specification on the power connector you need to purchase for it? Eg 2.5mm Center Negative?


For the Radiance Pro you need to purchase a 12 VDC supply with at least 5 Amps of output current, and a 2.1 (or 2.0) mm _center pin positive_ barrel connector.


----------



## EVH78

mkohman said:


> So I've watched 3 long movies since the update to v1.21 and not had 1 magenta glitch with my Lumagen. I am very confident that my issue is fixed. Its odd that it's not fixed yours? Maybe others with an NZ model and a Lumagen can chime in. All the best..


Did you ever notice the glitch prior the update? If so, try a movie that had the glitch and report back please.

Jim mentioned this is rather content related and Kris confirmed that they have not even been looking into this at JVC.


----------



## Kris Deering

Again, the new update has NOTHING to do with the glitch. Some are lucky and rarely (if ever) have the issue. I have done updates in the past and other things that will eliminate it for day (and even weeks in the case of the DR HDMI) but it will come back. It is definitely a sensitivity issue on their input side. JVC Japan has not even looked at this yet, so there is nothing in regards to this in the recent firmware update.


----------



## TopgeaR32

I see this glitch in every single movie at least 5 to 6 times with a JVC NZ7 (FW 1.21) and a brand new RP 5348.
I didn't notice any glitches with the NZ7 and the RP 4242-18G which I had before the 5348.
Downgrading the NZ FW to a preproduction version fixes the magenta glitch issue but rises other problems.
I really hope JVC (or Lumagen) will come up with a solution pretty soon because the situation is not acceptable.


----------



## mkohman

EVH78 said:


> Did you ever notice the glitch prior the update? If so, try a movie that had the glitch and report back please.
> 
> Jim mentioned this is rather content related and Kris confirmed that they have not even been looking into this at JVC.


I appreciate the new update has nothing to do with the glitch. I'm only reporting what I have experienced. It'll probably return but so far it's been solid for a while with not even 1 glitch whereas before it would happen frequently. 

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

TopgeaR32 said:


> I see this glitch in every single movie at least 5 to 6 times with a JVC NZ7 (FW 1.21) and a brand new RP 5348.
> I didn't notice any glitches with the NZ7 and the RP 4242-18G which I had before the 5348.
> Downgrading the NZ FW to a preproduction version fixes the magenta glitch issue but rises other problems.
> I really hope JVC (or Lumagen) will come up with a solution pretty soon because the situation is not acceptable.


what other problems does it raise specifically?


----------



## HTTR17

Jim,

Sorry if I missed your answer, is geometry correction, like the envy has, something that can be added to the lumagen? 

As a dcr user, I'd love this.


----------



## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> I would say from a calibration accuracy standpoint JVC's AC if done well (using two meters or profiled meters) gets you WAY more than 80% of the result you'd get from other solutions. We are talking more along the lines of 90-95%. There is improvement for sure, but I bet the difference would be almost imperceptible in normal viewing if compared directly.


That's good to hear about the 90-95%. Too bad I'm OCD when it comes to my a/v hobby otherwise I'd just do that


----------



## Sittler27

DigitalAV said:


> Like what? I don't mean for a particular projector brand, I'm saying in general


PM me and I'll send you some of my notes.


----------



## Kris Deering

HTTR17 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Sorry if I missed your answer, is geometry correction, like the envy has, something that can be added to the lumagen?
> 
> As a dcr user, I'd love this.


If you have a DCR setup properly there should be pretty minimal geometry distortion and it should be mostly around the edges of the image. This will be mostly noticeable with test patterns (especially lens setup patterns) but VERY unlikely you'd see it with actual content. Using an outboard scaler to "fix" this is just applying MORE processing to fix an issue you shouldn't really notice in moving content in the first place and runs the risk of seeing more issues due to the added scaling. You also are not fixing the geometric distortion because that is inherent in the glass, you are merely trying to straighten lines by warping the image. I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem in a well setup system. It makes a lot more sense for the older A-lenses that used horizontal expansion, but not something like the DCR. Maybe if you are running at more of the extremes of the throw (around a 1.4x throw or less), but even in this case I find this to be more of a visible issue with test patterns than any real content viewing.


----------



## HTTR17

Kris Deering said:


> If you have a DCR setup properly there should be pretty minimal geometry distortion and it should be mostly around the edges of the image. This will be mostly noticeable with test patterns (especially lens setup patterns) but VERY unlikely you'd see it with actual content. Using an outboard scaler to "fix" this is just applying MORE processing to fix an issue you shouldn't really notice in moving content in the first place and runs the risk of seeing more issues due to the added scaling. You also are not fixing the geometric distortion because that is inherent in the glass, you are merely trying to straighten lines by warping the image. I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem in a well setup system. It makes a lot more sense for the older A-lenses that used horizontal expansion, but not something like the DCR. Maybe if you are running at more of the extremes of the throw (around a 1.4x throw or less), but even in this case I find this to be more of a visible issue with test patterns than any real content viewing.


Thanks, I was curious if it was a trade off or actually made things worse.
I am a little over the 1.4x range. On content I can see it sometimes but not all the time. I see it most of course on hard lines or text. I think it's in my head that it's causing a loss of sharpness due to the misalignment of the pixels.

My projector is shelf mounted so I thought about backing up a foot. I'm also on the edge on how far down from the top of the screen the lens can be. I have the dcr-j1 or whatever the term is for the fixed lens for the jvc. I think it has tighter requirements, but less tilt. So my image goes really to the edge of the lens, if that matters.


----------



## Ghee

Hello,
I have a Lumagen 4242C driving a Sony VW325ES projector. I would like to set the color space of the projector to BT.2020 while sending a 2020 SDR source material. But it seems only possible when there is a HDR content. Does any one know how to do this?
Thank you


----------



## jrp

HTTR17 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Sorry if I missed your answer, is geometry correction, like the envy has, something that can be added to the lumagen?
> 
> As a dcr user, I'd love this.


The Radiance Pro has vertical keystone correction. We do not plan on adding any other type of geometry correction.

I believe geometry correction should be a feature in projectors. In any case geometry correction is not needed if the projector is placed properly in a home theater and there is no anamorphic lens. Even with a lens it is better to live with a small amount of barrel or pin-cushion rather than adding another scaling step IMO. If the projector has a throw ratio of 1.6x or greater, the barrel distortion with a Paladin lens is minimal.

If you cannot get to 1.6x or larger throw ratio I recommend you do what we did in the Lumagen Demo Theater. Since we did not have a large enough throw ratio, I eliminated the anamorphic lens and have no need for geometry correction. In addition I improved the static contrast ratio (from about 8300 to about 9500 static contrast on a JVC RS4500).

Hint: As I have mentioned previously, even without a lens you can gain about 13.5% light output if your projector has a 4096 wide 4k chip when using an anamorphic screen. Just set the Pro to output 4096x2160 and the light gain for a 2.40 screen is (4096*1707)/(3840*1604) = 13.5% light increase. This is a reasonable chunk of the light gain advertised for adding an anamorphic lens since the light increase calculation usually includes setting the output width to 4096.

====

That said, we have had adding a barrel and/or pin-cushion masking feature on our under consideration list for some time. This masking would straighten the edge without additional scaling. Typically it is the edge curve that is the visible issue. IMO this is a better solution than geometry correction for mitigating the small amount of, generally not visible on real content, barrel or pin-cushion distortion using an anamorphic lens.


----------



## TopgeaR32

Kris Deering said:


> what other problems does it raise specifically?


With the preproduction firmware I get this strange pattern in the left upper corner:









It's generated by the projector and doesn't go away no matter which settings I change.
(The Lumagen wasn't in the loop when I took this picture.)
If I upgrade to the latest FW again, the problem goes away.
I just downgraded again to verify if it is related the FW and it is.


----------



## woofer

TopgeaR32 said:


> With the preproduction firmware I get this strange pattern in the left upper corner:
> View attachment 3262398
> 
> 
> It's generated by the projector and doesn't go away no matter which settings I change.
> (The Lumagen wasn't in the loop when I took this picture.)
> If I upgrade to the latest FW again, the problem goes away.
> I just downgraded again to verify if it is related the FW and it is.


" Crop Circles ??? "  😁


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Hint: As I have mentioned previously, even without a lens you can gain about 13.5% light output if your projector has a 4096 wide 4k chip when using an anamorphic screen. Just set the Pro to output 4096x2160 and the light gain for a 2.40 screen is (4096*1707)/(3840*1604) = 13.5% light increase. This is a reasonable chunk of the light gain advertised for adding an anamorphic lens since the light increase calculation usually includes setting the output width to 4096.


Jim, I've never paid attention to prior discussions regarding light gain with the NX7 (etc.) 4k wide chip because I don't have either an anamorphic screen or lens. Is it necessary to make a menu change in the PJ if I change the RP's output to 4096 x 2160 in order to gain light output on my 16:9 screen? If additional light gain is accomplished would I need to alter any other existing RP settings (max light, etc.)? Thanks, as always.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> That said, we have had adding a barrel and/or pin-cushion masking feature on our under consideration list for some time. This masking would straighten the edge without additional scaling. Typically it is the edge curve that is the visible issue.


Not what I had hoped for but that is definitely a good idea. This would help a lot with my setup.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> If you have a DCR setup properly there should be pretty minimal geometry distortion and it should be mostly around the edges of the image. This will be mostly noticeable with test patterns (especially lens setup patterns) but VERY unlikely you'd see it with actual content. Using an outboard scaler to "fix" this is just applying MORE processing to fix an issue you shouldn't really notice in moving content in the first place and runs the risk of seeing more issues due to the added scaling. You also are not fixing the geometric distortion because that is inherent in the glass, you are merely trying to straighten lines by warping the image. I feel like this is a solution looking for a problem in a well setup system. It makes a lot more sense for the older A-lenses that used horizontal expansion, but not something like the DCR. Maybe if you are running at more of the extremes of the throw (around a 1.4x throw or less), but even in this case I find this to be more of a visible issue with test patterns than any real content viewing.


I can see why people would want to if for no other reason than to make sure there is no zero overspill - to that end I suggested a more elaborate version of the soft-edge masking might be useful. I have a pretty high-end screen (Screen Research with a 4" bezel wrapped in velvet) and even on that stray light from a poorly aligned image will become distracting when it hits the frame. Much of the time it's not there, until some bright element at the top of the screen draws attention to it. (AppleTV app logos are brilliant for this, particularly that danged Netflix one!) 

I (unfortunately) know straight away when the optics in my X7900 are on the move slightly as you see the little glints on the frame.

EDIT: I see Jim already mentioned it.

@jrp if you do end up adding something like this, could you consider extending the masking functionality to allow masking of the active image area rather than the full raster area? My setup uses a top/bottom masking screen and I'd ideally like to use the soft edge, but it only seems to apply to the whole 16:9 frame; when my image is masked down I'd quite like to apply the soft edge masking to the 2.35 or whatever masked area of image. (I might be being dumb and not know how to manipulate the current setup to my will).


----------



## Kris Deering

TopgeaR32 said:


> With the preproduction firmware I get this strange pattern in the left upper corner:
> View attachment 3262398
> 
> 
> It's generated by the projector and doesn't go away no matter which settings I change.
> (The Lumagen wasn't in the loop when I took this picture.)
> If I upgrade to the latest FW again, the problem goes away.
> I just downgraded again to verify if it is related the FW and it is.


I have firmware changed a lot of projectors to .65 including my own and haven’t seen this at all.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Jim, I've never paid attention to prior discussions regarding light gain with the NX7 (etc.) 4k wide chip because I don't have either an anamorphic screen or lens. Is it necessary to make a menu change in the PJ if I change the RP's output to 4096 x 2160 in order to gain light output on my 16:9 screen? If additional light gain is accomplished would I need to alter any other existing RP settings (max light, etc.)? Thanks, as always.


I wouldn’t recommend doing this with a 16x9 screen. You will end up with black bars all the time above and below the image.


----------



## tigerhonaker

Kris Deering said:


> I wouldn’t recommend doing this with a 16x9 screen.
> You will end up with black bars all the time above and below the image.


Good morning Kris D,

Simple question Big-Guy ............

The (Final) software update is *NOT* ready yet ???
For end-users ???

Thanks,
Terry


----------



## arsenalfc89

Does anyone know what this setting does during a SDR2020 calibration (see circled option in attached pic)? How does it impact profiling/calibration?


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Jim, I've never paid attention to prior discussions regarding light gain with the NX7 (etc.) 4k wide chip because I don't have either an anamorphic screen or lens. Is it necessary to make a menu change in the PJ if I change the RP's output to 4096 x 2160 in order to gain light output on my 16:9 screen? If additional light gain is accomplished would I need to alter any other existing RP settings (max light, etc.)? Thanks, as always.


For a 16:9 screen you need to stay at 3840x2160 even if your projector can do 4096x2160. The 3840x2160 resolution is 16:9 and will fit your screen. The latter is 1.90 and you would have pixels to the left and right of your 16:9 screen once the height is correct.

So for the 4096x2160 mode you need a 1.90 or higher aspect ratio screen.


----------



## Kris Deering

tigerhonaker said:


> Good morning Kris D,
> 
> Simple question Big-Guy ............
> 
> The (Final) software update is *NOT* ready yet ???
> For end-users ???
> 
> Thanks,
> Terry


Correct. Lumagen is still in Alpha phase, so you have a bit to go!


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> I wouldn’t recommend doing this with a 16x9 screen. You will end up with black bars all the time above and below the image.


Thanks for that information, Kris. What about only doing it with wide screen titles? Would the black bars further intrude on the image or cover subtitles/closed captions?


----------



## Nima

Kris Deering said:


> what other problems does it raise specifically?


Firmware 0.61 also does only have 2 sets of eShift modi: Standard and HighRes, no HighRes2 modus like in the later firmwares. I use HighRes2 atm with enhance at 0 and do the sharpening in the Lumagen (3/3) and find the picture overall better than the sharpening applied in the JVC.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> For a 16:9 screen you need to stay at 3840x2160 even if your projector can do 4096x2160. The 3840x2160 resolution is 16:9 and will fit your screen. The latter is 1.90 and you would have pixels to the left and right of your 16:9 screen once the height is correct.
> 
> So for the 4096x2160 mode you need a 1.90 or higher aspect ratio screen.


Thanks for your reply, Jim. I'm confused why it's a "no go" with a 16:9 screen if the RP were to "see" it as a shorter width 1.9 AR screen and add black bars to the top & bottom, rather than bleeding pixels to the right & left.


----------



## MOberhardt

docrog said:


> Thanks for your reply, Jim. I'm confused why it's a "no go" with a 16:9 screen if the RP were to "see" it as a shorter width 1.9 AR screen and add black bars to the top & bottom, rather than bleeding pixels to the right & left.


Because you'd need to either lens zoom refocus or have black bars on all sides when in 16:9 content.

I was looking at a 1.9 screen but never really got an answer here on if the lumagen could handle switching


----------



## jrp

MOberhardt said:


> Because you'd need to either lens zoom refocus or have black bars on all sides when in 16:9 content.
> 
> I was looking at a 1.9 screen but never really got an answer here on if the lumagen could handle switching


Check the history to see some discussions on this. I have discussed 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20 screens and how the Radiance Pro handles these cases in previous posts.

In short, yes, the Radiance Pro can handle aspect ratio control for any screen aspect up to 2.40 (and higher with some special memory setups). Unless you have some not-common masking requirements this includes using the Auto-aspect feature.

==== 

For 1.90 screen aspect case as mentioned recently you would use the 4096x2160 output mode, which will fill the 1.90 screen.

For a 1.90 screen, using the "Output aspect per input aspect" in the Styla0 menu can make sense. You can "lie" to the Radiance Pro and for 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, and 2.0 tell the Pro that the output aspect matches the source aspect (e.g. for 2.0, you set the output aspect to 2.0). For 16:9 content, setting the screen aspect to 1.90 causes a (1.9/1.78) horizontal stretch. This is about 6.7%, which most people would never even notice on real content. For higher aspect ratio sources, depending on whether you want to fill the screen, you can use linear stretch, and/or crop some off the left and right, to fill the screen, or just make the black bars smaller.


----------



## DannyBoy73

Do any installers on here cover Cincinnati?


----------



## Dirk44

The Radiance Pro has vertical keystone correction. We do not plan on adding any other type of geometry correction.

Hello Jim, could you please explain, the part in the menu, to gain the correction
Thanks in advance


----------



## c.kingsley

I've had a few days now with a new 4242 and I just want to say that this unit is amazing, with very minimal initial configuration. I wish I'd had one a long time ago.


----------



## KAYCEE2000

HTTR17 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Sorry if I missed your answer, is geometry correction, like the envy has, something that can be added to the lumagen?
> 
> As a dcr user, I'd love this.


hi. im new to lumagen. What is geometry correction, and why is it important to DCR users? i also have a dcr lens.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Dirk44 said:


> The Radiance Pro has vertical keystone correction. We do not plan on adding any other type of geometry correction.
> 
> Hello Jim, could you please explain, the part in the menu, to gain the correction
> Thanks in advance



MENU>OUTPUT>STYLES>STYLE*>MASK/SHRINK>KEYSTONE


----------



## jrp

To add to Gordon's response:

I recommend using the Radiance Pro vertical Keystone _only_ if the projector cannot do this optically. I would say digital keystone correction (such as in the Radiance Pro) is a "last resort" feature (as is any geometry correction). In other words avoid using it if at all possible.

The Radiance Pro vertical Keystone is a down-scale since you need to move either the top or bottom in horizontally. If the projector is set up correctly vertical keystone should not be needed. We added vertical keystone for DCI projectors which (in general) do not have a vertical keystone correction, because for commercial theaters the DCI spec requires the projectors to be mounted such that it is not needed. When DCI projectors are used in homes sometimes they cannot be mounted in the optimal location and need vertical keystone. In addition we have a few cases where a consumer projector with keystone correction is mounted so high it is beyond the range of the vertical lens-shift correction of the projector, and the projector needs to be tilted to fill the screen. For this case the Radiance Pro vertical keystone correction can be used for the additionally required keystone correction. Other than these cases, I strongly recommend doing all image-shift, and keystone correction, using projector controls when when available.


----------



## HTTR17

KAYCEE2000 said:


> hi. im new to lumagen. What is geometry correction, and why is it important to DCR users? i also have a dcr lens.


The DCR causes the image to buldge out or barrel roll. The issue I was hoping it could fix was the way DCR lens work it causes convergence issues (especially if you are close to the minimum throw). So in my case I can see a blue or red fringe. I'm not sure geometry correction is the correct term.

I saw someone post the envy could fix this, and got excited this was something that could be fixed in the lumagen. If your lens is back from the screen, your issue might be much less than mine.


----------



## Kris Deering

HTTR17 said:


> The DCR causes the image to buldge out or barrel roll. The issue I was hoping it could fix was the way DCR lens work it causes convergence issues (especially if you are close to the minimum throw). So in my case I can see a blue or red fringe. I'm not sure geometry correction is the correct term.
> 
> I saw someone post the envy could fix this, and got excited this was something that could be fixed in the lumagen. If your lens is back from the screen, your issue might be much less than mine.


If you are trying to fix the chromatic aberration of the lens you can use the zone based pixel adjustments in the projector itself.


----------



## HTTR17

Kris Deering said:


> If you are trying to fix the chromatic aberration of the lens you can use the zone based pixel adjustments in the projector itself.


Does it matter the order I do zone convergence in? Meaning start at the top left and go line by line down like I was reading a book. Or start in the middle and go out in expanding circle? Or doesn't matter.

I've read mixed things about using zone convergence.

Mainly I've read on here that zone or fine pixel adjustment is bad and would cause a softer image or other problems. Not sure if they mean with motion. But it's reads like it only does harm overall

Others have said the opposite. Shawn from panamorph said he uses zone convergence on his own nx7 to align the colors. My dealer told me "Zone and fine convergence is not the evil that it is made out to be. I will tell you a couple secrets. JVC uses it for all demos. If it was a bad thing, JVC would not be using it. All projectors from the factory have some convergence done to them before shipment. The controls are then zeroed out, so that user has full range of adjustment. "

The mixed message has left me confused which is the better path for me.


----------



## audioguy

HTTR17 said:


> Does it matter the order I do zone convergence in? Meaning start at the top left and go line by line down like I was reading a book. Or start in the middle and go out in expanding circle? Or doesn't matter.
> 
> I've read mixed things about using zone convergence.
> 
> Mainly I've read on here that zone or fine pixel adjustment is bad and would cause a softer image or other problems. Not sure if they mean with motion. But it's reads like it only does harm overall
> 
> Others have said the opposite. Shawn from panamorph said he uses zone convergence on his own nx7 to align the colors. My dealer told me "Zone and fine convergence is not the evil that it is made out to be. I will tell you a couple secrets. JVC uses it for all demos. If it was a bad thing, JVC would not be using it. All projectors from the factory have some convergence done to them before shipment. The controls are then zeroed out, so that user has full range of adjustment. "
> 
> The mixed message has left me confused which is the better path for me.


I'm anxious to hear a meaningful response to your question as well. I was told by one calibrator that to use "Zone Convergence" was tantamount to the unforgivable sin. He just said, it will make your image worse but with no explanation of how or why? Or is this something like the the allegedly flow direction requirements of (some) speaker wire? With my NZ9, it is not a huge issue but if zone convergence won't hurt, I would most certainly implement it.


----------



## jamin

Rabbit hole for convergence — around page 4, IIRC









Cosalient Pattern Generator Lite (ADL% Measurement, Fine...


Cosalient Pattern Generator Lite is a video pattern generator, picture ADL measurement too, and JVC fine zone adjustment controller. This is a "personal use only" treat for fellow HT enthusiasts. No product support from Kuo Software is implied and its use is solely at your own risk. App is not...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Erod

docrog said:


> Thanks for your reply, Jim. I'm confused why it's a "no go" with a 16:9 screen if the RP were to "see" it as a shorter width 1.9 AR screen and add black bars to the top & bottom, rather than bleeding pixels to the right & left.


Make an installation setting in the JVC with the zoom feature on and re-size the image to fit the screen.


----------



## desray2k

Jim, will you be releasing Alpha 4 later this week?


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Jim, will you be releasing Alpha 4 later this week?


Alpha 4 is close to release. The bugs reported in Alpha 3 have been addressed. After we have a full speed synthesis and route we will release Alpha 4. This could be a couple days, or it might take longer.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Alpha 4 is close to release. The bugs reported in Alpha 3 have been addressed. After we have a full speed synthesis and route we will release Alpha 4. This could be a couple days, or it might take longer.


Awesome…thanks for the update. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## alv

Not a computer programmer but am technical. Can someone explain what a full speed synthesis is and how it will help the consumer? Sounds like the software that now works so well is going slow.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

alv said:


> Not a computer programmer but am technical. Can someone explain what a full speed synthesis is and how it will help the consumer? Sounds like the software that now works so well is going slow.


I found this on search and is helpful:









Understanding FPGA Synthesis - HardwareBee


Get an overview and learn about FPGA synthesis flow, benefits and tools.




hardwarebee.com


----------



## Chicagobear1

alv said:


> Not a computer programmer but am technical. Can someone explain what a full speed synthesis is and how it will help the consumer? Sounds like the software that now works so well is going slow.


Synthesis also reduces the potential for errors and mistakes as well as allows us to reuse designs and modify them for future applications. Logic synthesis takes up a lot of responsibility from your shoulders onto its own, looking after the minute details to ensure that the entire process is as productive as possible while facing minimum roadblocks and bugs. The ability to reuse design means that there is a design that has been implemented onto an FPGA chip, it can later be implemented as an ASIC if needed for a different system at a different point in time.

In other words if the Synthesis timing is not up to scratch the more likely bug's appear. The better timing the better.


----------



## jrp

To add to the synthesis topic:

Getting synthesis to full speed is about the release working on all units. This CAD program translates the "Verilog" programming language into gates, and works with the "place and route" program which physically implements the gates and traces. It then feeds back timing information to the synthesis tool. It would be nice if this was a "one and done" process, but it is not. The tools use a randomized seed to initiate the process, and iterate many trials trying for a design that meets all constraints. Patrick then looks through the results for the best one and decides if it is good enough. If not, he looks for the "critical paths" that fail to meet timing and works to redesign those to have a better shot at meeting timing during the nest run. Then the process is repeated until we achieve success at getting a full speed FPGA design.

The differences between Alpha 3 and Alpha 4 were small and both use about the same amount of FPGA resources. However, Alpha 3 routed pretty well and Alpha 4 has been a bear.

As an historical example, we released Alpha 1 with less than a full speed synthesis run to get early feedback. Even though it was not at full speed for synthesis it worked on about 90% of units in the field. This saved us about a week getting to Alpha 2. Since then we have strived for a full speed FPGA for Alpha 2 and Alpha 3, and are working to do so for Alpha 4.

In theory a full-speed synthesis run should work on all units. Unfortunately the CAD tools are not perfect. We have on occasion released a "full speed" run that did not work on every single unit. Not a major problem since we do another synthesis run, with perhaps some timing redesign with changes to improve speed for the reported failure. Often we send this new test release out to be tested on the "flyer" unit to make sure it works. Then if it does, we release it as the next update.

For example, one Alpha tester reported issues with Alpha 3. After eliminating other possibilities, we decided it was the release itself. Historically, in most cases, a new release not working on a system is just the new release's minor "within spec" variance exposing a weakness in the HDMI cabling or projector input, but not in this case. We had the Alpha tester go back to Alpha 2, which does work on his unit. He will rejoin the tour at Alpha 4.

This is perhaps too much detail, but I wanted to point out that if you get a new release and you start to have issues, you can contact me at lumagen.com support and we will see if, with your feedback and some testing, we can determine the cause.


----------



## alv

Thanks all. While I don't understand everything, that is a good step forward in my knowledge. This is a lot more intense than the Apple II data acquisition in basic I did many years ago!


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> To add to the synthesis topic:
> 
> Getting synthesis to full speed is about the release working on all units. This CAD program translates the "Verilog" programming language into gates, and works with the "place and route" program which physically implements the gates and traces. It then feeds back timing information to the synthesis tool. It would be nice if this was a "one and done" process, but it is not. The tools use a randomized seed to initiate the process, and iterate many trials trying for a design that meets all constraints. Patrick then looks through the results for the best one and decides if it is good enough. If not, he looks for the "critical paths" that fail to meet timing and works to redesign those to have a better shot at meeting timing during the nest run. Then the process is repeated until we achieve success at getting a full speed FPGA design.
> 
> The differences between Alpha 3 and Alpha 4 were small and both use about the same amount of FPGA resources. However, Alpha 3 routed pretty well and Alpha 4 has been a bear.
> 
> As an historical example, we released Alpha 1 with less than a full speed synthesis run to get early feedback. Even though it was not at full speed for synthesis it worked on about 90% of units in the field. This saved us about a week getting to Alpha 2. Since then we have strived for a full speed FPGA for Alpha 2 and Alpha 3, and are working to do so for Alpha 4.
> 
> In theory a full-speed synthesis run should work on all units. Unfortunately the CAD tools are not perfect. We have on occasion released a "full speed" run that did not work on every single unit. Not a major problem since we do another synthesis run, with perhaps some timing redesign with changes to improve speed for the reported failure. Often we send this new test release out to be tested on the "flyer" unit to make sure it works. Then if it does, we release it as the next update.
> 
> For example, one Alpha tester reported issues with Alpha 3. After eliminating other possibilities, we decided it was the release itself. Historically, in most cases, a new release not working on a system is just the new release's minor "within spec" variance exposing a weakness in the HDMI cabling or projector input, but not in this case. We had the Alpha tester go back to Alpha 2, which does work on his unit. He will rejoin the tour at Alpha 4.
> 
> This is perhaps too much detail, but I wanted to point out that if you get a new release and you start to have issues, you can contact me at lumagen.com support and we will see if, with your feedback and some testing, we can determine the cause.


If FPGA implementation is so “time consuming”, it lead me wonder how many AV electronics implement this path for future upgradability for their product line…I bet ONLY Lumagen does that at the moment. The next question is of course the upgrading of HDMI 2.1 daughter board to some of the AVR and Pre Amp…which gives a lot of HDMI related issues to the display and dare I say, Lumagen as well since it is all the video chain. Like what Jim mentioned in several of his posts and podcast interviews, most of the time, he was troubleshooting “other” non-Lumagen” related display issues. So I can see the challenge that Jim and Patrick has to face with HDMI 2.1 board related issues that break the Lumagen and the support coming in.

Kudos to Jim and his team for implementing this FPGA route while they could have easily opted for a new model every other year to meet a new HDMI specs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sjerseydad22

I've recently paired a 4242 to a RS500 and have noticed significant graininess during playback from either select Bluray (via an OPPO 203) or Roku content. Is there a setting in the 42 that I may have overlooked that tames or eliminates that grain/edginess?


----------



## loggeo

desray2k said:


> If FPGA implementation is so “time consuming”, it lead me wonder how many AV electronics implement this path for future upgradability for their product line…I bet ONLY Lumagen does that at the moment. The next question is of course the upgrading of HDMI 2.1 daughter board to some of the AVR and Pre Amp…which gives a lot of HDMI related issues to the display and dare I say, Lumagen as well since it is all the video chain. Like what Jim mentioned in several of his posts and podcast interviews, most of the time, he was troubleshooting “other” non-Lumagen” related display issues. So I can see the challenge that Jim and Patrick has to face with HDMI 2.1 board related issues that break the Lumagen and the support coming in.
> 
> Kudos to Jim and his team for implementing this FPGA route while they could have easily opted for a new model every other year to meet a new HDMI specs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I would assume both nx,nz jvc projectors make use of a FPGA implementation, although not even close to the level of use that Lumagen provides.


----------



## Mike_WI

desray2k said:


> If FPGA implementation is so “time consuming”, it lead me wonder how many AV electronics implement this path for future upgradability for their product line…I bet ONLY Lumagen does that at the moment. The next question is of course the upgrading of HDMI 2.1 daughter board to some of the AVR and Pre Amp…which gives a lot of HDMI related issues to the display and dare I say, Lumagen as well since it is all the video chain. Like what Jim mentioned in several of his posts and podcast interviews, most of the time, he was troubleshooting “other” non-Lumagen” related display issues. So I can see the challenge that Jim and Patrick has to face with HDMI 2.1 board related issues that break the Lumagen and the support coming in.
> 
> Kudos to Jim and his team for implementing this FPGA route while they could have easily opted for a new model every other year to meet a new HDMI specs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Here is one example of a different brand that uses FPGA




__





How does an FPGA DAC work? - PS Audio







www.psaudio.com





EDIT
Another DAC -- dCS - Digital Processing Platform | Limitless Potential | dCS


----------



## morellihugo

Kris Deering said:


> *I get an occasional one frame glitch that looks like it goes green/pink for a flash. This sometimes takes days to manifest, sometimes hours and sometimes it happens every 15-20 minutes. It is VERY inconsistent.*


I’m having exactly the same issue Kris is describing with my RS3100. Anyone knows if there is fix for this? I tried everything, new cables (copper and fiber) in different lengths, a new HDFury Vertex2, etc…


----------



## jrp

morellihugo said:


> I’m having exactly the same issue Kris is describing with my RS3100. Anyone knows if there is fix for this? I tried everything, new cables (copper and fiber) in different lengths, a new HDFury Vertex2, etc…


We have the preproduction release which has a better HDMI input implementation than the production releases for the NZ series projectors (RS2100, RS3100, RS4100). Send me an email at lumagen.com support requesting the preproduction NZ firmware link and I will send it to you.


----------



## morellihugo

jrp said:


> We have the preproduction release which has a better HDMI input implementation than the production releases for the NZ series projectors (RS2100, RS3100, RS4100). Send me an email at lumagen.com support requesting the preproduction NZ firmware link and I will send it to you.


Thank you so much!!!


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> If FPGA implementation is so “time consuming”, it lead me wonder how many AV electronics implement this path for future upgradability for their product line…I bet ONLY Lumagen does that at the moment. The next question is of course the upgrading of HDMI 2.1 daughter board to some of the AVR and Pre Amp…which gives a lot of HDMI related issues to the display and dare I say, Lumagen as well since it is all the video chain. Like what Jim mentioned in several of his posts and podcast interviews, most of the time, he was troubleshooting “other” non-Lumagen” related display issues. So I can see the challenge that Jim and Patrick has to face with HDMI 2.1 board related issues that break the Lumagen and the support coming in.
> 
> Kudos to Jim and his team for implementing this FPGA route while they could have easily opted for a new model every other year to meet a new HDMI specs.


FPGA's are in common use. For data center and other applications, the design will generally not push the FPGA to their limits. So, they are going to leave more margin "on the table" so to speak. In return they will have faster synthesis runs, and not have to worry about any "flyer" FPGA's having issues. In contrast the Radiance Pro needs to push the FPGA near its limit to run at the video pipeline rate. So it can take more time to synthesize. This is not normally as visible to customers since we do not typically discuss it, and instead just have frequent releases.

We believe that since the FGPA's are "hyper efficient" for video, the extra time to get a full speed synthesis run is worth the effort. Not all releases need a new FPGA, and this is really the first complete redesign we have done. So there is more speed tuning than usual. Because we are discussing this openly, it overstates the synthesis effort IMO. For us, synthesis is always a time sink. It is just not normally so public.

Thanks for the kind words about our policy of improving our current products, rather than forcing people to upgrade to a new model to get new features. Even though we started selling the Radiance Pro in 2015, we choose an FPGA that would allow tremendous improvements in image processing over time. I think we have delivered on this with all the improvements, and the new pipeline-enhancement release. And there is more to come.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> FPGA's are in common use. For data center and other applications, the design will generally not push the FPGA to their limits. So, they are going to leave more margin "on the table" so to speak. In return they will have faster synthesis runs, and not have to worry about any "flyer" FPGA's having issues. In contrast the Radiance Pro needs to push the FPGA near its limit to run at the video pipeline rate. So it can take more time to synthesize. This is not normally as visible to customers since we do not typically discuss it, and instead just have frequent releases.
> 
> We believe that since the FGPA's are "hyper efficient" for video, the extra time to get a full speed synthesis run is worth the effort. Not all releases need a new FPGA, and this is really the first complete redesign we have done. So there is more speed tuning than usual. Because we are discussing this openly, it overstates the synthesis effort IMO. For us, synthesis is always a time sink. It is just not normally so public.
> 
> Thanks for the kind words about our policy of improving our current products, rather than forcing people to upgrade to a new model to get new features. Even though we started selling the Radiance Pro in 2015, we choose an FPGA that would allow tremendous improvements in image processing over time. I think we have delivered on this with all the improvements, and the new pipeline-enhancement release. And there is more to come.


I think people appreciate your open discussion.
Reminds me of Jason at Schiit Audio describing the research, development, and implementation processes.


----------



## alv

I think most of us, maybe all, like the open discussion. I know a lot more about FPGA's than I did a few days ago.


----------



## morellihugo

jrp said:


> We have the preproduction release which has a better HDMI input implementation than the production releases for the NZ series projectors (RS2100, RS3100, RS4100). Send me an email at lumagen.com support requesting the preproduction NZ firmware link and I will send it to you.


Email sent.


----------



## jrp

morellihugo said:


> Email sent.


Sorry but it never arrived, and it is not in the SPAM folder that I can find. Please check the spelling of lumagen.com and send it to [email protected] You can call us at 503-574-2211 Option 2 and we can figure out what might be holding up your email.

I do not normally use PM, but I am going to PM you the link. Please do not PM me back as I do not check for PM's.


----------



## Leon66

1.21 absolutely does NOT fix the magenta glitch. 



mkohman said:


> So I've watched 3 long movies since the update to v1.21 and not had 1 magenta glitch with my Lumagen. I am very confident that my issue is fixed. Its odd that it's not fixed yours? Maybe others with an NZ model and a Lumagen can chime in. All the best..
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## mkohman

Leon66 said:


> 1.21 absolutely does NOT fix the magenta glitch.


Well it's fixed mine. It's been over a week and never had it once since the firmware update. I'm not saying it does fix the issue, I was only sharing my experience. 

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Sittler27

Leon66 said:


> 1.21 absolutely does NOT fix the magenta glitch.





mkohman said:


> Well it's fixed mine. It's been over a week and never had it once since the firmware update. I'm not saying it does fix the issue, I was only sharing my experience.
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


So, if one is on the preprod fw and want to try out to see how bad the glitch is, how easy is it to just revert back again to the preprod fw?


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> So, if one is on the preprod fw and want to try out to see how bad the glitch is, how easy is it to just revert back again to the preprod fw?


Just the same as before. USB stick with the firmware and start the update. Revert to pre production takes just under an hour.


----------



## jrp

Update on Alpha 4 release:

We had an Alpha 4 release candidate, but we found a bug in one of the changes from Alpha 3 for NLS that required a small redesign in the FPGA. Patrick has completed the redesign and is back working on the FPGA synthesis. The change was very minor and initial runs of synthesis look promising to get a full speed FPGA for Alpha 4.

We hope to have the Alpha 4 release in the next day or two if the synthesis runs produce a full speed result.


----------



## alv

Jim, one of my issues with my understanding FPGA programming at a basic level is the term full speed synthesis. What changes from a partial speed result? I know a lot more than a week ago, but that term bugs (pun intended) me.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Update on Alpha 4 release:
> 
> We had an Alpha 4 release candidate, but we found a bug in one of the changes from Alpha 3 for NLS that required a small redesign in the FPGA. Patrick has completed the redesign and is back working on the FPGA synthesis. The change was very minor and initial runs of synthesis look promising to get a full speed FPGA for Alpha 4.
> 
> We hope to have the Alpha 4 release in the next day or two if the synthesis runs produce a full speed result.


That means we can have the alpha 4 for testing over the weekend. Yay!


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> Jim, one of my issues with my understanding FPGA programming at a basic level is the term full speed synthesis. What changes from a partial speed result? I know a lot more than a week ago, but that term bugs (pun intended) me.


I wrote the following and then became concerned I am just extending the Q&A about synthesis unnecessarily. But so be it. I am hoping this is the last educational post I have to make on the topic of synthesis, at least for a while.

==== 

The synthesis converts the Verilog code into "gates." The gates process logical functions and take time to do this work. There are a number of gates in series for each "pipeline stage." The total time is a combination of the gates themselves and the interconnect that connects the logical functions. The longer the interconnections, the longer the pipeline stage takes to complete the work, and the slower the logic will function correctly. The synthesis works in tandem with the router to balance the layout of each section of the design so all sections meet the required timing.

If the FPGA synthesis is not "full speed" it will run fine on most, but not all units. The reason is as stated, it is not a "full speed" for 100% of the units. This means it might run at full speed on 90% of units, but it would only work at, say, 95% of required speed on the other units. Since the video always runs at the full speed, this translate into some units not working with that release.

As hinted above, for a "not at full speed synthesis," we generally see that about 90% of units have FPGAs that will work correctly. The other 10% have issues that impact the image, or fail to work. This was the case for Alpha 1. It was intentionally a "not at full speed synthesis" release. We said as much to the Alpha testers when we released it. So, not all units worked, but most did. This allowed us to save a week getting to Alpha 2 since we got the feedback sooner than if we had held out for a full speed synthesis.

==== 

All you really need to know is, for Alpha 2 and later, and for Beta, and production releases when they come, it is our intention that they be full-speed synthesis runs. This means they should run on all units. No need to understand what might happen with a "not at full speed synthesis" since they will not occur.

You can forget I ever mentioned synthesis and getting to full speed. In my attempt to give details, I have confused you about things you do not need to know. Just watch for the updates. Then update as you would a normal production release, and enjoy the pipeline enhancements.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> If the FPGA synthesis is not "full speed" it will run fine on most, but not all units.


Sorry to ask a follow-up question (and one you may have answered before), but what is the differentiator between various units that exist out in the wild, that causes something like this to happen? What is the variability aspect between units that would cause one to work and another to not work?


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Sorry to ask a follow-up question (and one you may have answered before), but what is the differentiator between various units that exist out in the wild, that causes something like this to happen? What is the variability aspect between units that would cause one to work and another to not work?


Your question and my answer passed in the Ether. Please see my most recent post and below:

Semiconductors are not all identical. Within a batch of FPGAs some are faster than others, although all have been tested to a minimum speed.

When we purchase FPGAs, speed varies within a specified margin. There are a number of process variations, but the one that most impacts us is "gate delay" in the FPGA "fabric." We buy faster "speed graded" versions of the Intel Stratix FPGAs to limit the variance, but there is still some.

For a "full speed synthesis" the tools are saying all FPGA's that meet the minimum speed test will work correctly.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Your question and my answer passed in the Ether. Please see my most recent post.


Sorry, I did read your whole most recent post, and I didn't see anything in there that explains the 'why' of why some units would not work and some would. Is it a hardware difference between the working and non-working units? Sorry again if I missed it. But I did read your post a couple times.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> You can forget I ever mentioned synthesis and getting to full speed. In my attempt to give details, I have confused you about things you do not need to know. Just watch for the updates. Then update as you would a normal production release, and enjoy the pipeline enhancements.


Haha...well said! That's all we, as consumers ever need to know.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Your question and my answer passed in the Ether. Please see my most recent post and below:
> 
> Semiconductors are not all identical. Within a batch of FPGAs some are faster than others, although all have been tested to a minimum speed.
> 
> When we purchase FPGAs, speed varies within a specified margin. There are a number of process variations, but the one that most impacts us is "gate delay" in the FPGA "fabric." We buy faster "speed graded" versions of the Intel Stratix FPGAs to limit the variance, but there is still some.
> 
> For a "full speed synthesis" the tools are saying all FPGA's that meet the minimum speed test will work correctly.


OK, just seeing this now (didn't see it initially). Wow, that variance is very interesting (and slightly surprising?). Is it possible (not to re-hash old wounds) that these variations have anything to do with audio dropouts happening for some and not others?


----------



## alv

Thanks for the detailed answers. The two posts have satisfied my curiosity.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> OK, just seeing this now (didn't see it initially). Wow, that variance is very interesting (and slightly surprising?). Is it possible (not to re-hash old wounds) that these variations have anything to do with audio dropouts happening for some and not others?


Audio is passed from the input HDMI chips to the output HDMI chips directly. Audio never touches the FPGA, and so should not be affected by the FPGA synthesis.

There is one case I will mention for completeness, but should never be the issue: If you have video drops not caused by HDMI cables or the projector input (as they most of the time are), it _could_ mean the output HDMI output chip is not getting a robust HDMI signal from the FPGA and this _could_ affect audio on an output set to audio+video. I say _could_ since for a full speed FPGA synthesis this should not be an issue. If you have solid video, an audio+video output should also be solid.

Note: For an 18 GHz output card, the audio-only output (the odd output number) is internally generated in the 18 GHz HDMI output chip. So, it does not depend on the FPGA synthesis, and so should never be affected by the FPGA synthesis. My theory is many audio processors do not have the capture range to robustly deal with the 720p60 audio only output since their design "sweet spot" is 9 GHz or 18 GHz. I will avoid going into any more detail on audio since I have covered it many times in the past.


----------



## Clark Burk

Interesting and I’ve definitely learned a bit. Is there anything that would cause a FPGA to lose speed or performance as it ages or is it basically a works or doesn’t work case?


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Interesting and I’ve definitely learned a bit. Is there anything that would cause a FPGA to lose speed or performance as it ages or is it basically a works or doesn’t work case?


Excellent question, and one that sent me to the web for current literature.

I found an article on microprocessor speed reduction aging which I believe is also representative of FPGAs. Here is a conclusion from an article titled "Asymmetric aging effect on modern microprocessors" by Gabbay and Mendelson:

"The aging model we used shows a worst delay shift of approximately 6% over a ten-year lifetime."

This appears to be a 100% up-time calculation. If you put the Radiance Pro in standby while not in use, this would be the equivalent of 87000 hours of viewing, since the FPGA core is powered down in standby. If you use your theater four hours a day, every day, this equates to 60 years.

Temperature is a key factor in this "delay shift." I am having trouble finding the typical operating temperature for a microprocessor, and did not see it specified in the article. I do not want to download a chip temperature app, or jump through hoops to check mine. So, I am going to assume the microprocessor is running at roughly 84C, which matches our target temperature. I believe this is a reasonable estimate, but if someone has data on the average microprocessor temperature, it would be interesting to know.

If your Radiance Pro has a "Chip" temperature below the 84C target, reducing temperature reduces the effect of aging. Also if your chip temperature is below 84C it will run slightly faster than at 84C, giving you more margin.

====

My conclusion is that while there is some reduction of semiconductor speed over time, it should not affect your system over its lifetime.

This does also make putting the unit in standby when not in use, as we recommend, a good idea. This may extend the life of the unit (slightly), and pretty much eliminates this "speed reduction over time" as a factor.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Temperature is a key factor in this "delay shift." I am having trouble finding the typical operating temperature for a microprocessor, and did not see it specified in the article. I do not want to download a chip temperature app, or jump through hoops to check mine. So, I am going to assume the microprocessor is running at roughly 84C, which matches our target temperature. I believe this is a reasonable estimate, but if someone has data on the average microprocessor temperature, it would be interesting to know.
> 
> If your Radiance Pro has a "Chip" temperature below the 84C target, reducing temperature reduces the effect of aging. Also if your chip temperature is below 84C it will run slightly faster than at 84C, giving you more margin.


Hi Jim, I'm the owner of the LRP 4242-C where my pic started to display anomalies (yellow tinge) within 10 mths of my purchase. Luckily my unit was within the 1 year warranty and so you have sent me a replacement board a few months back. Now everything is in order. I've recalled during the numerous email exchanges to find the root cause, you always emphasize on the chip temp and asked me to take screenshots of the info panel. You also advised me to lower the default temp alert from 84C to even lower and set the minimum fanbspeed to the highest (at 10), of course the fan at full speed is not what I will call super noisy but this lead me to my thoughts, my unit is not placed in some hidden corner that is poor in ventilation, in fact it is the opposite, since day 1, I have placed my LRP 4242-C in the open on my AV rack and my room is fully air-conditioned. I always switched off my unit when not in use... My usage pattern is definitely less than 4hrs a day, in fact sometime as long as one month, I didn't get to turn it on. The LRP is always in the cool shades of my room, never expose to external elements like the sun rays etc. Why is my unit lifespan so short? Till this day I could not fathom but I have already done my part to ensure the chipset is always below 60 degrees during operation. I achieved it by using AC infinity cooling fans installed below and above the unit. Blowing constant cool air into the unit and drawing out hot air from top of the vent. Image has been rock steady so far. I crossing my fingers that I will not see those image anomalies with this replacement board. So I'm quite hesitant to agree with the long life span that the unit will enjoy baed on the most ideal case scenario. After all, it is still a piece of electronics and like any electronic goods these days, it will degrade and break down eventually but going strong beyond 10 yrs will be a stretch in my opinion.


----------



## uderman

jrp said:


> Your question and my answer passed in the Ether. Please see my most recent post and below:
> 
> Semiconductors are not all identical. Within a batch of FPGAs some are faster than others, although all have been tested to a minimum speed.
> 
> When we purchase FPGAs, speed varies within a specified margin. There are a number of process variations, but the one that most impacts us is "gate delay" in the FPGA "fabric." We buy faster "speed graded" versions of the Intel Stratix FPGAs to limit the variance, but there is still some.
> 
> For a "full speed synthesis" the tools are saying all FPGA's that meet the minimum speed test will work correctly.


You should bin your inventory and sell the faster ones as “Silicon Lottery Edition” for a higher price


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Hi Jim, I'm the owner of the LRP 4242-C where my pic started to display anomalies (yellow tinge) within 10 mths of my purchase. Luckily my unit was within the 1 year warranty and so you have sent me a replacement board a few months back. Now everything is in order. I've recalled during the numerous email exchanges to find the root cause, you always emphasize on the chip temp and asked me to take screenshots of the info panel. You also advised me to lower the default temp alert from 84C to even lower and set the minimum fan speed to the highest (at 10), of course the fan at full speed is not what I will call super noisy but this lead me to my thoughts, my unit is not placed in some hidden corner that is poor in ventilation, in fact it is the opposite, since day 1, I have placed my LRP 4242-C in the open on my AV rack and my room is fully air-conditioned. I always switched off my unit when not in use... My usage pattern is definitely less than 4hrs a day, in fact sometime as long as one month, I didn't get to turn it on. The LRP is always in the cool shades of my room, never expose to external elements like the sun rays etc. Why is my unit lifespan so short? Till this day I could not fathom but I have already done my part to ensure the chipset is always below 60 degrees during operation. I achieved it by using AC infinity cooling fans installed below and above the unit. Blowing constant cool air into the unit and drawing out hot air from top of the vent. Image has been rock steady so far. I crossing my fingers that I will not see those image anomalies with this replacement board. So I'm quite hesitant to agree with the long life span that the unit will enjoy based on the most ideal case scenario. After all, it is still a piece of electronics and like any electronic goods these days, it will degrade and break down eventually but going strong beyond 10 yrs will be a stretch in my opinion.


I am sorry to say it, but you have no understanding of semiconductors, their reliability, or their failure rate. There is always a failure rate. This is a "bathtub curve" with a some early failures, then a long time with a very low failure rate, and then a higher failure rate after the expected life of the semiconductors. Even keeping units cool there is a non-zero failure rate. You happened to have an early fail. This is not common and could easily have been the result of being dropped in shipping causing damage that did not initially cause a visible issue. We have seen this happen before. No way to know exactly what caused your unit to fail.

I asked for a picture of the temperature screen because I wanted make sure your fan was working in your unit and the temperature was not too high. This was not for the fear of the higher temperature damaging your FPGA (they can handle up to 120C without damage), but instead because our synthesis is targeted at a 85C die temperature and higher temperatures can keep the unit from working properly.

Your _hope_ for ten years might come true and it might not. Simple electronics might last 10 years, but complex chips like modern microprocessors, and FPGAs, generally have a lower life expectancy. Putting the Radiance Pro in standby when not in use will help increase the life of your unit. I realize you said you did this. I mention it again for other readers.


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> You should bin your inventory and sell the faster ones as “Silicon Lottery Edition” for a higher price


.
Since it is a smile and not a wink I will give the serious answer to your suggestion.

We buy speed graded parts and the variance is not large enough for a speed bin. 

Also, there is no "overclocking" opportunity for the video pipeline. It is always the same clock rate. The FPGA runs at full speed or it does not. We strive for a synthesis run where all units function correctly at the video clock rate.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> You happened to have an early fail. This is not common and could easily have been the result of being dropped in shipping causing damage that did not initially cause a visible issue. We have seen this happen before. No way to know exactly what caused your unit to fail.





jrp said:


> Your _hope_ for ten years might come true and it might not. Simple electronics might last 10 years, but complex chips like modern microprocessors, and FPGAs, generally have a lower life expectancy. Putting the Radiance Pro in standby when not in use will help increase the life of your unit.


Thanks for the explanation. You are right, I've zero knowledge of semi-conductors. I pray this replacement board will last me a long time before I the upgrade bug catches up with me.


----------



## alv

What is the processing time variance between a full speed synthesis and a less good one? Since the less than full speed ones work on most LRP's, I assume it must be small. Seems like quite an engineering feat! It's a lot of processing in a few frames worth of time!


----------



## jrp

I sent out the link to the Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release. There are a number of fixes/improvements in Alpha 4 versus the Alpha 3 release:

-fixes video noise when menus were put up/changed with 4k60 output
-speeds up test pattern draw time especially for 4k50/60 output modes
-fix for right edge of some test patterns
-fixes a problem with vertical shift
-fixes a couple rs232 commands that limited input # to 8
-fixes cases of video corruption when NLS is enabled
-adds a "subtitle mode." More on this below.

=============================================

New Subtitle Mode:

Subtitles are a pain when the player/streamer does not do the right thing. Sources should do what the Kaleidescape Strato does and put them within the active frame. However, I am not holding my breath on this.

Since subtitles are not consistent in terms of when and how long they appear, and it is abhorrent to me to automatically change the aspect while in the middle of content, we have chosen to make the new subtitle mode a manual selection. It is not saved in the configuration. If you switch to a different input, and back, it will be disabled.

You engage the subtitle mode by pressing down-arrow while the image is in the not-zoomed condition. To exit subtitle mode use the up-arrow to get back to the "not-zoomed" case. Note: The up and down arrows must be programmed for zooming in and out for the subtitle feature to be engaged.

The subtitle feature moves the bottom of the image up to have room to see the subtitles. There are two steps, 8%, and 12%. The subtitle mode is reported in the input selection OSD at the bottom of the screen. As an example, for content at 2.40, the Radiance Pro input-select OSD reports these two steps as 2.40s1, or 2.40s2, respectively.

The subtitle feature is intended to work with manual aspect selection since the Radiance Pro auto-aspect sees out-of-frame subtitles as content and changes the aspect ratio. 

If you have auto-aspect enabled, for a 2.40 movie, you would manually select 2.40 (with Auto-aspect Sticky-override enabled), and then press the down-arrow once to move the image bottom up and show the subtitles.

To keep the image full width we choose to vertically compress the image linearly to compensate for moving the bottom of the image up for the subtitles. For most people an 8% vertical compression is not very noticeable on typical content. I prefer this approach to doing a NLS horizontal stretch.

I do not think the 12% subtitle mode is needed. However, since I am not certain we made it available for the source aspect ratio cases that make sense. Here is an example of when 12% is not applicable: For 2.0 content 8% is already more than is needed to show the complete raster area below the active content. For 16:9 screens, the subtitle feature is not needed at all.

For the case where there are both subtitles, and "super-titles" at the top, you can choose a smaller aspect to see the super-titles and subtitles. Or choose a smaller aspect and in addition use the new subtitle feature.

We were considered adding other features to the new subtitle mode but decided to keep it simple, at least for now. I believe the way we have it implemented will work well. We always welcome suggestions for improvements if you have any. I suspect we know what the suggestions will be.

============= 

If Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release works well for Alpha testers it may become the Beta 1 release.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> I sent out the link to the Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release. There are a number of fixes/improvements in Alpha 4 versus the Alpha 3 release:
> 
> -fixes video noise when menus were put up/changed with 4k60 output
> -speeds up test pattern draw time especially for 4k50/60 output modes
> -fix for right edge of some test patterns
> -fixes a problem with vertical shift
> -fixes a couple rs232 commands that limited input # to 8
> -fixes cases of video corruption when NLS is enabled
> -adds a "subtitle mode." More on this below.
> 
> =============================================
> 
> New Subtitle Mode:
> 
> Subtitles are a pain when the player/streamer does not do the right thing. Sources should do what the Kaleidescape Strato does and put them within the active frame. However, I am not holding my breath on this.
> 
> Since subtitles are not consistent in terms of when and how long they appear, and it is abhorrent to me to automatically change the aspect while in the middle of content, we have chosen to make the new subtitle mode a manual selection. It is not saved in the configuration. If you switch to a different input, and back, it will be disabled.
> 
> You engage the subtitle mode by pressing down-arrow while the image is in the not-zoomed condition. To exit subtitle mode use the up-arrow to get back to the "not-zoomed" case. Note: The up and down arrows must be programmed for zooming in and out for the subtitle feature to be engaged.
> 
> The subtitle feature moves the bottom of the image up to have room to see the subtitles. There are two steps, 8%, and 12%. The subtitle mode is reported in the input selection OSD at the bottom of the screen. As an example, for content at 2.40, the Radiance Pro input-select OSD reports these two steps as 2.40s1, or 2.40s2, respectively.
> 
> The subtitle feature is intended to work with manual aspect selection since the Radiance Pro auto-aspect sees out-of-frame subtitles as content and changes the aspect ratio.
> 
> If you have auto-aspect enabled, for a 2.40 movie, you would manually select 2.40 (with Auto-aspect Sticky-override enabled), and then press the down-arrow once to move the image bottom up and show the subtitles.
> 
> To keep the image full width we choose to vertically compress the image linearly to compensate for moving the bottom of the image up for the subtitles. For most people an 8% vertical compression is not very noticeable on typical content. I prefer this approach to doing a NLS horizontal stretch.
> 
> I do not think the 12% subtitle mode is needed. However, since I am not certain we made it available for the source aspect ratio cases that make sense. Here is an example of when 12% is not applicable: For 2.0 content 8% is already more than is needed to show the complete raster area below the active content. For 16:9 screens, the subtitle feature is not needed at all.
> 
> For the case where there are both subtitles, and "super-titles" at the top, you can choose a smaller aspect to see the super-titles and subtitles. Or choose a smaller aspect and in addition use the new subtitle feature.
> 
> We were considered adding other features to the new subtitle mode but decided to keep it simple, at least for now. I believe the way we have it implemented will work well. We always welcome suggestions for improvements if you have any. I suspect we know what the suggestions will be.
> 
> =============
> 
> If Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release works well for Alpha testers it may become the Beta 1 release.


If the subtitle mode works in the streaming app it will be great addition thank Jim and all your team for all this great effort 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

Tested Alpha 4 firmware... I'm getting posterisation on my Apple TV. I don't have this issue on Alpha 3. Already reported to Jim. Hopefully it can be resolved soon. Anyone else having this issue? 😕


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Tested Alpha 4 firmware... I'm getting posterization on my Apple TV. I don't have this issue on Alpha 3. Already reported to Jim. Hopefully it can be resolved soon. Anyone else having this issue? 😕


We have recalled Alpha 4 since there are a number of reports of timing issues with the FPGA.

As another reminder to Alpha testers: Bug reports should be sent to Lumagen only. Please allow me to be the one to post issues to this thread.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> We have recalled Alpha 4 since there are a number of reports of timing issues with the FPGA.
> 
> As another reminder to Alpha testers: Bug reports should be sent to Lumagen only. Please allow me to be the one to post issues to this thread.


Noted Jim. 👍


----------



## bartl007

Are there any downsides other than fan/unit noise to running the fan at a speed higher than the default of 2?

Would excess dust accumulation or fan life expectancy be reasons to avoid running the internal fan at higher speed to keep chip temps down over time.

Am I overthinking this and would the lumagen life expectancy be the same whether the fan is run at 2 vs 10?

I don't have any issues or problems with my unit, just curious and hopeful to keep my lumagen for as long as possible.


----------



## jrp

bartl007 said:


> Are there any downsides other than fan/unit noise to running the fan at a speed higher than the default of 2?
> 
> Would excess dust accumulation or fan life expectancy be reasons to avoid running the internal fan at higher speed to keep chip temps down over time.
> 
> Am I overthinking this and would the lumagen life expectancy be the same whether the fan is run at 2 vs 10?
> 
> I don't have any issues or problems with my unit, just curious and hopeful to keep my lumagen for as long as possible.


If fan noise at 10 is not an issue (it is still quiet IMO), then it comes down to:

At 10, the fan may wear out a bit sooner. However, the fan we use has a fluid bearing so this might not be a significant factor. I do not recall having a 60 mm fan (as used in all 1U, and 4242-C, Radiance Pro models) ever failing. The fan is easily replaced, so I consider this a very minor consideration.

At 10, as you note, you might have a bit more dust accumulation, but I do not think this will be a significant issue in a normal room environment.

At 10, the chip core temperature will be lower lower. A lower temperature increases the average life for semiconductors. The Radiance Pro target of 84C is already much lower than other targets that can be in the 100C range. So the Radiance Pro FPGA default temperature is already excellent.

Some estimates say a 10C reduction doubles the average life expectancy, but more thorough analysis appears to show that a 15C decrease will double the average life expectancy. Because of this, when noise is not a factor, I recommend running the fan "minimum speed" higher than the default. Since the Radiance Pro for the demo theater is in a cabinet,

I generally set the fan minimum to 10 to reduce the FPGA core temperature as low as possible. So it is reasonable to set he fan speed higher.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> If fan noise at 10 is not an issue (it is still quiet IMO), then it comes down to:
> 
> At 10, the fan may wear out a bit sooner. However, the fan we use has a fluid bearing so this might not be a significant factor. I do not recall having a 60 mm fan (as used in all 1U, and 4242-C, Radiance Pro models) ever failing. The fan is easily replaced, so I consider this a very minor consideration.
> 
> At 10, as you note, you might have a bit more dust accumulation, but I do not think this will be a significant issue in a normal room environment.
> 
> At 10, the chip core temperature will be lower lower. A lower temperature increases the average life for semiconductors. The Radiance Pro target of 84C is already much lower than other targets that can be in the 100C range. So the Radiance Pro FPGA default temperature is already excellent.
> 
> Some estimates say a 10C reduction doubles the average life expectancy, but more thorough analysis appears to show that a 15C decrease will double the average life expectancy. Because of this, when noise is not a factor, I recommend running the fan "minimum speed" higher than the default. Since the Radiance Pro for the demo theater is in a cabinet,
> 
> I generally set the fan minimum to 10 to reduce the FPGA core temperature as low as possible. So it is reasonable to set he fan speed higher.


Had an extra one of these lying around, put it on top of my LRP's vent (drawing air out) set to low speed (virtually silent) & dropped my average temps from 82 to 62C (my internal fan speed minimum is set to 3). Pretty cool 

AC Infinity MULTIFAN S4, Quiet 140mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MWH4FL4/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_ZKYV8HBB8PXSMQ1BG316?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## desray2k

DigitalAV said:


> Had an extra one of these lying around, put it on top of my LRP's vent (drawing air out) set to low speed (virtually silent) & dropped my average temps from 82 to 62C (my internal fan speed minimum is set to 3). Pretty cool
> 
> AC Infinity MULTIFAN S4, Quiet 140mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MWH4FL4/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_ZKYV8HBB8PXSMQ1BG316?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


I'm using a pair of this to cool my LRP 4242-C at the moment. Very powerful wind.


----------



## Mark Burton

jrp said:


> If fan noise at 10 is not an issue (it is still quiet IMO), then it comes down to:
> 
> At 10, the fan may wear out a bit sooner. However, the fan we use has a fluid bearing so this might not be a significant factor. I do not recall having a 60 mm fan (as used in all 1U, and 4242-C, Radiance Pro models) ever failing. The fan is easily replaced, so I consider this a very minor consideration.
> 
> At 10, as you note, you might have a bit more dust accumulation, but I do not think this will be a significant issue in a normal room environment.
> 
> At 10, the chip core temperature will be lower lower. A lower temperature increases the average life for semiconductors. The Radiance Pro target of 84C is already much lower than other targets that can be in the 100C range. So the Radiance Pro FPGA default temperature is already excellent.
> 
> Some estimates say a 10C reduction doubles the average life expectancy, but more thorough analysis appears to show that a 15C decrease will double the average life expectancy. Because of this, when noise is not a factor, I recommend running the fan "minimum speed" higher than the default. Since the Radiance Pro for the demo theater is in a cabinet,
> 
> I generally set the fan minimum to 10 to reduce the FPGA core temperature as low as possible. So it is reasonable to set he fan speed higher.


Handy to know. I run mine on minimum of 8 as I have an almost fully enclosed cabinet, doing this keeps the temps nice and low.


----------



## scrowe

This does the job for me, I leave it in Smart Mode with max 50% fan.








AIRCOM S8, Receiver and AV Component Cooling Blower System, Rear Exhaust 17"


Your source to create smart growing systems with components including advance grow tents, inline fans, clip-on fans, LED grow lights, and UIS™ controllers.




www.acinfinity.com


----------



## MOberhardt

DigitalAV said:


> Had an extra one of these lying around, put it on top of my LRP's vent (drawing air out) set to low speed (virtually silent) & dropped my average temps from 82 to 62C (my internal fan speed minimum is set to 3). Pretty cool
> 
> AC Infinity MULTIFAN S4, Quiet 140mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MWH4FL4/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_ZKYV8HBB8PXSMQ1BG316?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


So just sit it on top, and plug into an external USB supply?


----------



## DigitalAV

MOberhardt said:


> So just sit it on top, and plug into an external USB supply?


Exactly, and have it sucking air out (blowing air up).


----------



## Hawks07

DigitalAV said:


> Exactly, and have it sucking air out (blowing air up).


If you are tight on space there are also models that blow it out the rear.


----------



## MOberhardt

DigitalAV said:


> Exactly, and have it sucking air out (blowing air up).


Ah right so I could probably plug into my projector USB port to power it when on.


----------



## MOberhardt

jrp said:


> I sent out the link to the Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release. There are a number of fixes/improvements in Alpha 4 versus the Alpha 3 release:
> 
> -fixes video noise when menus were put up/changed with 4k60 output
> -speeds up test pattern draw time especially for 4k50/60 output modes
> -fix for right edge of some test patterns
> -fixes a problem with vertical shift
> -fixes a couple rs232 commands that limited input # to 8
> -fixes cases of video corruption when NLS is enabled
> -adds a "subtitle mode." More on this below.
> 
> =============================================
> 
> New Subtitle Mode:
> 
> Subtitles are a pain when the player/streamer does not do the right thing. Sources should do what the Kaleidescape Strato does and put them within the active frame. However, I am not holding my breath on this.
> 
> Since subtitles are not consistent in terms of when and how long they appear, and it is abhorrent to me to automatically change the aspect while in the middle of content, we have chosen to make the new subtitle mode a manual selection. It is not saved in the configuration. If you switch to a different input, and back, it will be disabled.
> 
> You engage the subtitle mode by pressing down-arrow while the image is in the not-zoomed condition. To exit subtitle mode use the up-arrow to get back to the "not-zoomed" case. Note: The up and down arrows must be programmed for zooming in and out for the subtitle feature to be engaged.
> 
> The subtitle feature moves the bottom of the image up to have room to see the subtitles. There are two steps, 8%, and 12%. The subtitle mode is reported in the input selection OSD at the bottom of the screen. As an example, for content at 2.40, the Radiance Pro input-select OSD reports these two steps as 2.40s1, or 2.40s2, respectively.
> 
> The subtitle feature is intended to work with manual aspect selection since the Radiance Pro auto-aspect sees out-of-frame subtitles as content and changes the aspect ratio.
> 
> If you have auto-aspect enabled, for a 2.40 movie, you would manually select 2.40 (with Auto-aspect Sticky-override enabled), and then press the down-arrow once to move the image bottom up and show the subtitles.
> 
> To keep the image full width we choose to vertically compress the image linearly to compensate for moving the bottom of the image up for the subtitles. For most people an 8% vertical compression is not very noticeable on typical content. I prefer this approach to doing a NLS horizontal stretch.
> 
> I do not think the 12% subtitle mode is needed. However, since I am not certain we made it available for the source aspect ratio cases that make sense. Here is an example of when 12% is not applicable: For 2.0 content 8% is already more than is needed to show the complete raster area below the active content. For 16:9 screens, the subtitle feature is not needed at all.
> 
> For the case where there are both subtitles, and "super-titles" at the top, you can choose a smaller aspect to see the super-titles and subtitles. Or choose a smaller aspect and in addition use the new subtitle feature.
> 
> We were considered adding other features to the new subtitle mode but decided to keep it simple, at least for now. I believe the way we have it implemented will work well. We always welcome suggestions for improvements if you have any. I suspect we know what the suggestions will be.
> 
> =============
> 
> If Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release works well for Alpha testers it may become the Beta 1 release.


Might be really difficult with too much streaming. Take on Netflix Major Grom. On my Apple TV, single line, half off bottom, double line in frame, for on screen text, half off frame at the top.


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Might be really difficult with too much streaming. Take on Netflix Major Grom. On my Apple TV, single line, half off bottom, double line in frame, for on screen text, half off frame at the top.


Probably better off selecting 2.2 or 2.0 as a forced aspect for something like this. Doesn't make a lot of sense for Lumagen to try and create weird offsets for examples like this that are singularities. But choosing one of those aspects should cover your bases for both locations.


----------



## bearcat2002

scrowe said:


> This does the job for me, I leave it in Smart Mode with max 50% fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AIRCOM S8, Receiver and AV Component Cooling Blower System, Rear Exhaust 17"
> 
> 
> Your source to create smart growing systems with components including advance grow tents, inline fans, clip-on fans, LED grow lights, and UIS™ controllers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.acinfinity.com


I have the 2U version of the Radiance Pro...so there are no vents on top of the unit, just the rear. So if the back of the rack is open, probably no reason so use a fan, correct?


----------



## scrowe

bearcat2002 said:


> I have the 2U version of the Radiance Pro...so there are no vents on top of the unit, just the rear. So if the back of the rack is open, probably no reason so use a fan, correct?


It depends what problem you are trying to solve. I used this originally with my 2U 4446 and this was the difference between stopping the Lumagen fan kicking in, which was audible to me. It still takes hot air from around the Lumagen and deposits it out the back. I think on newer case designs the fan is different (not as audible) , but I still use it with my 1U 5348.


----------



## KCAV23

jrp said:


> I sent out the link to the Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release. There are a number of fixes/improvements in Alpha 4 versus the Alpha 3 release:
> 
> -fixes video noise when menus were put up/changed with 4k60 output
> -speeds up test pattern draw time especially for 4k50/60 output modes
> -fix for right edge of some test patterns
> -fixes a problem with vertical shift
> -fixes a couple rs232 commands that limited input # to 8
> -fixes cases of video corruption when NLS is enabled
> -adds a "subtitle mode." More on this below.
> 
> =============================================
> 
> New Subtitle Mode:
> 
> Subtitles are a pain when the player/streamer does not do the right thing. Sources should do what the Kaleidescape Strato does and put them within the active frame. However, I am not holding my breath on this.
> 
> Since subtitles are not consistent in terms of when and how long they appear, and it is abhorrent to me to automatically change the aspect while in the middle of content, we have chosen to make the new subtitle mode a manual selection. It is not saved in the configuration. If you switch to a different input, and back, it will be disabled.
> 
> You engage the subtitle mode by pressing down-arrow while the image is in the not-zoomed condition. To exit subtitle mode use the up-arrow to get back to the "not-zoomed" case. Note: The up and down arrows must be programmed for zooming in and out for the subtitle feature to be engaged.
> 
> The subtitle feature moves the bottom of the image up to have room to see the subtitles. There are two steps, 8%, and 12%. The subtitle mode is reported in the input selection OSD at the bottom of the screen. As an example, for content at 2.40, the Radiance Pro input-select OSD reports these two steps as 2.40s1, or 2.40s2, respectively.
> 
> The subtitle feature is intended to work with manual aspect selection since the Radiance Pro auto-aspect sees out-of-frame subtitles as content and changes the aspect ratio.
> 
> If you have auto-aspect enabled, for a 2.40 movie, you would manually select 2.40 (with Auto-aspect Sticky-override enabled), and then press the down-arrow once to move the image bottom up and show the subtitles.
> 
> To keep the image full width we choose to vertically compress the image linearly to compensate for moving the bottom of the image up for the subtitles. For most people an 8% vertical compression is not very noticeable on typical content. I prefer this approach to doing a NLS horizontal stretch.
> 
> I do not think the 12% subtitle mode is needed. However, since I am not certain we made it available for the source aspect ratio cases that make sense. Here is an example of when 12% is not applicable: For 2.0 content 8% is already more than is needed to show the complete raster area below the active content. For 16:9 screens, the subtitle feature is not needed at all.
> 
> For the case where there are both subtitles, and "super-titles" at the top, you can choose a smaller aspect to see the super-titles and subtitles. Or choose a smaller aspect and in addition use the new subtitle feature.
> 
> We were considered adding other features to the new subtitle mode but decided to keep it simple, at least for now. I believe the way we have it implemented will work well. We always welcome suggestions for improvements if you have any. I suspect we know what the suggestions will be.
> 
> =============
> 
> If Alpha 4 pipeline enhancement release works well for Alpha testers it may become the Beta 1 release.


All of this sounds amazing, most of what you guys are talking about I can't even understand LOL however I bought a Lumagen because I want my theater picture quality to be the absolute best it can be! Just from reading your post and only being able to make out a couple of acronyms, and I know this isn't a thread for a question like this but if anyone would have a good idea I figured it would be you Jim! What is your estimated ballpark cost for one of these master calibrators to do the full Lumagen Radiance Pro and projector calibration? 
Thanks so much, and I apologise if I violated the rules of this forum.....kinda new to this


----------



## bjorg

I can't figure out how to search a thread. Does anyone have a link to Jim's post on what the recommended start-up procedure is to avoid the AppleTV zombie mode?


----------



## Hawks07

bjorg said:


> I can't figure out how to search a thread. Does anyone have a link to Jim's post on what the recommended start-up procedure is to avoid the AppleTV zombie mode?


What is the AppleTV zombie mode?


----------



## wjchan

bjorg said:


> I can't figure out how to search a thread. Does anyone have a link to Jim's post on what the recommended start-up procedure is to avoid the AppleTV zombie mode?











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Pro 4242 Non-responsive Hello, Turned on HT system this morning to sound and No picture. Turned on/off a few times to no avail. The Lumagen only responds to on/off commands. Would not connect to laptop. Unplugged with no change, had to unplug and plug back in to download latest firmware and...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## fatherom

bjorg said:


> I can't figure out how to search a thread. Does anyone have a link to Jim's post on what the recommended start-up procedure is to avoid the AppleTV zombie mode?


Start typing in the main search box at the top...then choose "in this thread" from the drop-down.


----------



## bjorg

fatherom said:


> Start typing in the main search box at the top...then choose "in this thread" from the drop-down.


Ah! So that where it is! Thanks!


----------



## bjorg

wjchan said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Pro 4242 Non-responsive Hello, Turned on HT system this morning to sound and No picture. Turned on/off a few times to no avail. The Lumagen only responds to on/off commands. Would not connect to laptop. Unplugged with no change, had to unplug and plug back in to download latest firmware and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


👍

Found a few more related posts:

(53) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 661 | AVS Forum 
(53) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 370 | AVS Forum 
(53) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 393 | AVS Forum 
(53) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 383 | AVS Forum 
(53) New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series | Page 505 | AVS Forum 
So now onto stitching this all together!


----------



## edthomp

Loving my JVC NZ8, but the laser dimming isn't amazing. That is for sure. Wondering if the Lumagen couldn't provide similar functionality. On the JVC it seems that full fade to black ends up displaying no color, which then exposes light from the projector which is non-black. But shouldn't no color just be black? Couldn't the Lumagen be programmed to do something similar...meaning, no color is converted to black even the black upper and lower bars for material that doesn't use the entire screen?


----------



## Ian_Currie

edthomp said:


> Loving my JVC NZ8, but the laser dimming isn't amazing. That is for sure. Wondering if the Lumagen couldn't provide similar functionality. On the JVC it seems that full fade to black ends up displaying no color, which then exposes light from the projector which is non-black. But shouldn't no color just be black? Couldn't the Lumagen be programmed to do something similar...meaning, no color is converted to black even the black upper and lower bars for material that doesn't use the entire screen?


What don't you like about the laser dimming? If you have mode 2 you should see full fade to black.


----------



## jrp

edthomp said:


> Loving my JVC NZ8, but the laser dimming isn't amazing. That is for sure. Wondering if the Lumagen couldn't provide similar functionality. On the JVC it seems that full fade to black ends up displaying no color, which then exposes light from the projector which is non-black. But shouldn't no color just be black? Couldn't the Lumagen be programmed to do something similar...meaning, no color is converted to black even the black upper and lower bars for material that doesn't use the entire screen?


I would like to have the Radiance Pro control the JVC laser level and suggested it to JVC. We could do the laser dimming correctly (or at least my view of what correct is). JVC said "not happening." I expected as much, but thought it worth a shot.

Without control of the laser directly, it would likely be a fools errand to try to figure out what to do since we would need the JVC laser dimming on, and we would then need to try to undo their approach, and then put ours into play. The additional issue if the Pro changes the transfer function to undo the JVC laser dimming, the signal changes and so the JVC would then change the laser dimming.

I would be happy to work with JVC to define a HDMI Info Frame laser-level-control interface specific to JVC. It would take JVC management realizing how "not so good" the JVC laser dimming is and being willing to work with us to improve it using the Radiance Pro DTM logic.

==== 

On the other hand the new NZ series projectors have a great static contrast ratio. This makes dynamic laser level less of an issue. Since I am not holding my breath that JVC will want to work with us on the laser dimming, I recommend leaving it off. Then you can trade-off maximum light versus achieving near true black using the manual iris. 

Closing the iris some will increase static contrast, and improve black level, at the cost of reducing white level output. I generally prefer optimizing black at the cost of reducing white level output to a certain degree. You might find you agree with me, or that you instead want maximum white level. This is a personal preference item IMO.


----------



## edthomp

jrp said:


> I would like to have the Radiance Pro control the JVC laser level and suggested it to JVC. We could do the laser dimming correctly (or at least my view of what correct is). JVC said "not happening." I expected as much, but thought it worth a shot.
> 
> Without control of the laser directly, it would likely be a fools errand to try to figure out what to do since we would need the JVC laser dimming on, and we would then need to try to undo their approach, and then put ours into play. The additional issue if the Pro changes the transfer function to undo the JVC laser dimming, the signal changes and so the JVC would then change the laser dimming.
> 
> I would be happy to work with JVC to define a HDMI Info Frame laser-level-control interface specific to JVC. It would take JVC management realizing how "not so good" the JVC laser dimming is and being willing to work with us to improve it using the Radiance Pro DTM logic.
> 
> ====
> 
> On the other hand the new NZ series projectors have a great static contrast ratio. This makes dynamic laser level less of an issue. Since I am not holding my breath that JVC will want to work with us on the laser dimming, I recommend leaving it off. Then you can trade-off maximum light versus achieving near true black using the manual iris.
> 
> Closing the iris some will increase static contrast, and improve black level, at the cost of reducing white level output. I generally prefer optimizing black at the cost of reducing white level output to a certain degree. You might find you agree with me, or that you instead want maximum white level. This is a personal preference item IMO.


I agree with you, and actually have laser dimming turned off. Didn't like what it did to the picture. My original post was assuming the JVC laser dimming is off, and considering that the dimming is off, couldn't the Lumagen detect a fade-to-black or no color and do something algorithmically? Or maybe you already are, and it is just a short coming of the projectors black floor.


----------



## jrp

edthomp said:


> I agree with you, and actually have laser dimming turned off. Didn't like what it did to the picture. My original post was assuming the JVC laser dimming is off, and considering that the dimming is off, couldn't the Lumagen detect a fade-to-black or no color and do something algorithmically? Or maybe you already are, and it is just a short coming of the projectors black floor.


Yes. Its called Dynamic Tone Mapping.  The black level in the projector sets the darkest this can be as you surmise in your post.

Of course DTM does not apply to SDR content. I have considered a DTM mode for SDR content, but it does not make much sense given the that SDR is mastered to about 106 nits. If on the other hand we could control the laser-level we would adapt DTM to SDR plus laser level control.

====================== 

Kris Deering and I have both talked to JVC about a laser dimming with a much lighter touch from JVC. This would be a control that only changes the laser level for very dark scenes, or perhaps an even lighter touch to only turn off the laser if all pixels are black.


----------



## Mike_WI

I would love to see a "Lumagen badged" JVC projector as a standard or upgrade option in the future.


----------



## OzHDHT

I would have thought Japan would have given working more closely with Lumagen more consideration since Lumagen's successful colab with JVC USA and the RS4500 package. Could certainly make a really powerful combo with the new series


----------



## DigitalAV

OzHDHT said:


> I would have thought Japan would have given working more closely with Lumagen more consideration since Lumagen's successful colab with JVC USA and the RS4500 package. Could certainly make a really powerful combo with the new series


I would instantly buy one & wager the image quality leap over what's available now for HDR on projectors would be nothing short of shocking.


----------



## Surge2018

There has not been a Lumagen firmware update since 090121, is that correct?


----------



## Mark Burton

Surge2018 said:


> There has not been a Lumagen firmware update since 090121, is that correct?


Big one coming next and hopefully soon 🤞🏼


----------



## jrp

Surge2018 said:


> There has not been a Lumagen firmware update since 090121, is that correct?


We have released several Alpha versions to those who signed up to be Alpha Testers, but the 090121 is the last public release.

I expect to release Alpha 5 to Alpha Testers today if the release candidate continues to perform well. If it continues to perform well it may well become Beta 1 and be put on our website.


----------



## jrp

I just sent the Alpha 5 release out to the Alpha testers.

Patrick increased the timing margin in a couple critical paths, and it is working well here at Lumagen, including 4k60 in and out.

There are no functional changes form the (recalled) Alpha 4. So look for my post on Alpha 4 changes if you are interested in details, including the new subtitle feature.


----------



## A7mad78

First impression about Alpha#5 

Outstanding it seem it will be public soon from the previous version this one take off all what I found well done Jim that effort is will appreciated and deserve our gratitude for all what you done 

I don’t test the subtitle coz I don’t get it right and want to be sure my remote is programed how can I program the remote? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RonF

Please allow me a really dumb question I’m assuming. I don’t follow tech for high end processors as have never been in the market for one. But can I assume that a high quality processor such as this could solve a flat panel TV such as the stunning new Samsung QD OLEDs “less than Sony’s motion capabilities”?

The Sony’s panels will have been purchased from Samsung but get Sony’s acknowledged better processing and motion characteristics. This Lumagen and probably lesser pieces of equipment could solve that problem if it bothered a Samsung owner enough? The Sonys are expected in each size to be about a thousand dollars more give or take.


----------



## jrp

A7mad78 said:


> First impression about Alpha#5
> 
> Outstanding it seem it will be public soon from the previous version this one take off all what I found well done Jim that effort is will appreciated and deserve our gratitude for all what you done
> 
> I don’t test the subtitle coz I don’t get it right and want to be sure my remote is programed how can I program the remote?


The up/down arrows default to zoom as needed for the new subtitle zoom feature. You can check or change the up/down arrow function in the MENU->Options->I/O Setup->Remote Ctl->Up/Down arrows menu. Save any changes.

===== 

Note that for 16:9 content the subtitle feature is not needed and so it is not active. This is because the image fills the source raster. For 1.85 the down arrow will only step the small amount from the bottom of the active image to the bottom of the raster. The step size increases up to 8% for the first down arrow press as the image aspect increases.


----------



## MDesigns

RonF said:


> Please allow me a really dumb question I’m assuming. I don’t follow tech for high end processors as have never been in the market for one. But can I assume that a high quality processor such as this could solve a flat panel TV such as the stunning new Samsung QD OLEDs “less than Sony’s motion capabilities”?
> 
> The Sony’s panels will have been purchased from Samsung but get Sony’s acknowledged better processing and motion characteristics. This Lumagen and probably lesser pieces of equipment could solve that problem if it bothered a Samsung owner enough? The Sonys are expected in each size to be about a thousand dollars more give or take.


Short answer: No, the Lumagen does nothing for motion. Also the price for Lumagen is $6k+ so even if it did it would be much cheaper to get the Sony.


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> The up/down arrows default to zoom as needed for the new subtitle zoom feature. You can check or change the up/down arrow function in the MENU->Options->I/O Setup->Remote Ctl->Up/Down arrows menu. Save any changes.
> 
> =====
> 
> Note that for 16:9 content the subtitle feature is not needed and so it is not active. This is because the image fills the source raster. For 1.85 the down arrow will only step the small amount from the bottom of the active image to the bottom of the raster. The step size increases up to 8% for the first down arrow press as the image aspect increases.


Thank you Jim 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## desray2k

This is by far the BEST Alpha firmware I have tested...the image quality on 4K60 content is absolutely stunning. Very responsive and for the very first time, it is free from any video artifacts which sometimes linger when switching between different sources with different framerates. Tested the subtitle mode for 2.35:1 content but I didn't like it...that's just me. But the overall image quality for this latest Alpha version has exceeded all my expectations. Even the HDR quality has also improved in this latest release.

Well done Jim and Patrick!


----------



## A7mad78

desray2k said:


> This is by far the BEST Alpha firmware I have tested...the image quality on 4K60 content is absolutely stunning. Very responsive and for the very first time, it is free from any video artifacts which sometimes linger when switching between different sources with different framerates. Tested the subtitle mode for 2.35:1 content but I didn't like it...that's just me. But the overall image quality for this latest Alpha version has exceeded all my expectations. Even the HDR quality has also improved in this latest release.
> 
> Well done Jim and Patrick!


In my K-scape OSD the covers looks stunning never been like this very smooth And agree the HDR looks great very clean even an improve in 24Hz 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RonF

MDesigns said:


> Short answer: No, the Lumagen does nothing for motion. Also the price for Lumagen is $6k+ so even if it did it would be much cheaper to get the Sony.


Oh wow. I was really wrong on my assumption there … thanks for the information. Yes I know this fine equipment is high end and expensive, but thought perhaps two birds with one stone with the processing section of the processor in which 4K Darbee will be releasing at some point hopefully not too much further off.


----------



## jqmn

@jrp or others-- Is there a section in the info screen(s) that shows the running bit rate for video input? If not, is there a reason it isn't provided or couldn't be added? Thank-you.


----------



## jrp

jqmn said:


> @jrp or others-- Is there a section in the info screen(s) that shows the running bit rate for video input? If not, is there a reason it isn't provided or couldn't be added? Thank-you.


The Radiance Pro receives base-band video as pixels. This is after the steam is decoded from compressed-video to pixels.

Only the streamer, or player, has any information on the stream's bit rate.


----------



## bartl007

jqmn said:


> @jrp or others-- Is there a section in the info screen(s) that shows the running bit rate for video input? If not, is there a reason it isn't provided or couldn't be added? Thank-you.


For those of us that really like geeking out on bitrates and whatnot. In Amazon prime video you can enter a secret diagnostic mode by using the remote and quickly entering the sequence “Left, Right, Left, Right, Up, Down, Up and Down” 


Lots of cool info available in this mode, plus the video game cheat code nostalgia is too hard to deny…


----------



## Erod

desray2k said:


> This is by far the BEST Alpha firmware I have tested...the image quality on 4K60 content is absolutely stunning. Very responsive and for the very first time, it is free from any video artifacts which sometimes linger when switching between different sources with different framerates. Tested the subtitle mode for 2.35:1 content but I didn't like it...that's just me. But the overall image quality for this latest Alpha version has exceeded all my expectations. Even the HDR quality has also improved in this latest release.
> 
> Well done Jim and Patrick!


Did you already have Alpha 3?


----------



## desray2k

Erod said:


> Did you already have Alpha 3?


Yes, Alpha #3 is working great for me...but Alpha #5 took it to the next level! The improvement to the PQ is visible. I can see this being released as a beta candidate pretty soon.


----------



## Ian_Currie

desray2k said:


> Yes, Alpha #3 is working great for me...but Alpha #5 took it to the next level! The improvement to the PQ is visible. I can see this being released as a beta candidate pretty soon.


Have there actually been updates to the PQ mentioned in release notes?


----------



## R.jeff

Hope they have the Alpha 5 up to download soon! I actually have time this weekend to play


----------



## Erod

desray2k said:


> Yes, Alpha #3 is working great for me...but Alpha #5 took it to the next level! The improvement to the PQ is visible. I can see this being released as a beta candidate pretty soon.


Jim said there's nothing added to affect PQ in 5, but you may be benefiting from "reflashing" that aspect of the update. Sometimes things just don't take properly the first time.


----------



## Sittler27

Ian_Currie said:


> Have there actually been updates to the PQ mentioned in release notes?


no


----------



## Erod

R.jeff said:


> Hope they have the Alpha 5 up to download soon! I actually have time this weekend to play


Email Jim, and he'll probably send it to you. 

He doesn't sleep. Lol


----------



## fatherom

Erod said:


> Jim said there's nothing added to affect PQ in 5, but you may be benefiting from "reflashing" that aspect of the update. Sometimes things just don't take properly the first time.


Can you elaborate on this? It would be very bizarre if certain firmware features didn’t “take” after the firmware was loaded.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Can you elaborate on this? It would be very bizarre if certain firmware features didn’t “take” after the firmware was loaded.


There is a very small chance that an update reports as loaded correctly, but still a flash bit did not get written correctly. This has happened on occasion. However, the issues this might create, while random in nature, usually are more overt than a slight change in quality.

Note that if you are updating and it does not complete correctly, or it says it finished correctly but you do not believe it due to some random issue, you should then do a "Boot Mode Update" as described in the Tech Tip that comes with each update. The reason is a corrupt update can keep future "normal update mode" updates from ever completing correctly. Since the only thing running when doing a "Boot Mode Update" is the boot loader, which is never overwritten, this allows the update to complete correctly.

For a "Boot Mode Update" set up as for a normal update, then when ready and just before clicking Start, remove Radiance Pro wall power and then restore power. Do _not_ turn the unit on. Click Start within 10 seconds of restoring Radiance Pro power. This information is in the Tech Tip that comes with each update.


----------



## alv

With the improvements in the pipeline, do you still think there is no visible difference in PQ for 9 and 18GHz due to the Lumagen dithering solution?


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> With the improvements in the pipeline, do you still think there is no visible difference in PQ for 9 and 18GHz due to the Lumagen dithering solution?


Yes.

My earlier comparisons between 8-bit dither, versus 12-bit 4:2:2, for 4k HDR were at 24 Hertz 2.40 1:1 pixel mapping (i.e. no scaling) and no calibration. I also tried these cases at 4k60. The changes in the pipeline for the 24 Hertz case are small since this is the closest to a "pass-through" case as the Radiance Pro can get. IMO there is no chance of the comparison changing due to the pipeline enhancements.

What is different using the pipeline enhancement release is that both 9 and 18 GHz output for 4k60 are significantly improved.


----------



## Mikesterz

Would adding motion blur or filmmaker mode to the lumagen help image quality? I’m noticing judder on some 24 fps scenes. I don’t notice this as much on TV’s and thinking it’s due to the processing built into modern TV’s.


----------



## bjorg

Mikesterz said:


> Would adding motion blur or filmmaker mode to the lumagen help image quality? I’m noticing judder on some 24 fps scenes. I don’t notice this as much on TV’s and thinking it’s due to the processing built into modern TV’s.


Judder becomes also an issue with brighter displays. My LED wall makes judder a lot more visible. Either motion interpolation or motion blur, as you suggested, could help here.


----------



## jqmn

bartl007 said:


> For those of us that really like geeking out on bitrates and whatnot. In Amazon prime video you can enter a secret diagnostic mode by using the remote and quickly entering the sequence “Left, Right, Left, Right, Up, Down, Up and Down”


Thank-you for your tip but it didn't work for me. What did work is: Press and hold Center Button, After a sec also press and hold Down Button, After 5 secs release both buttons and press Menu Button.


----------



## Jue Liang

There is one strange thing that I noticed with the Alpha 5 release. I have been using the Alpha 1 release but switched back to the 090121 firmware since I received my RS4100 because I need to use the test patterns. I have never seen a pink flash in my ~10 days of use, that's ~40 hours of usage time (1.21 firmware in JVC, and 090121 firmware in Lumagen). That's why I never changed the JVC firmware to the pre-production one even though Jim sent me that. 

Yesterday, I updated the Lumagen firmware to the Alph 5 (JVC is still in 1.21 firmware), then I noticed the pink flash ~10 times in only ~ 3 hours. Looks like the Alpha 5 release made the compatibility of JVC's current firmware with Lumagen much worse. I know people are reporting that these pink flashes can happen randomly, it could be once every 10 minutes or once every few days. Now I have to switch the Lumagen firmware back to 090121 to see if the flashes would disappear or not.

I have reported this to Jim, but I also want post it here to see if anyone else had the same experience as mine.


----------



## Mikesterz

bjorg said:


> Judder becomes also an issue with brighter displays. My LED wall makes judder a lot more visible. Either motion interpolation or motion blur, as you suggested, could help here.


I don’t notice judder at the theaters. I’m wondering if it has something to do with consumer mastering or maybe the cinema uses a different processor that helps reduce judder.


----------



## bjorg

Mikesterz said:


> I don’t notice judder at the theaters. I’m wondering if it has something to do with consumer mastering or maybe the cinema uses a different processor that helps reduce judder.


Projectors are usually much less bright than LED/OLED displays. There are exceptions of course. For me, hand drawn animation at 12FPS is stroboscopic on a 1000 nits display! YMMV


----------



## Clark Burk

Jue Liang said:


> There is one strange thing that I noticed with the Alpha 5 release. I have been using the Alpha 1 release but switched back to the 090121 firmware since I received my RS4100 because I need to use the test patterns. I have never seen a pink flash in my ~10 days of use, that's ~40 hours of usage time (1.21 firmware in JVC, and 090121 firmware in Lumagen). That's why I never changed the JVC firmware to the pre-production one even though Jim sent me that.
> 
> Yesterday, I updated the Lumagen firmware to the Alph 5 (JVC is still in 1.21 firmware), then I noticed the pink flash ~10 times in only ~ 3 hours. Looks like the Alpha 5 release made the compatibility of JVC's current firmware with Lumagen much worse. I know people are reporting that these pink flashes can happen randomly, it could be once every 10 minutes or once every few days. Now I have to switch the Lumagen firmware back to 090121 to see if the flashes would disappear or not.
> 
> I have reported this to Jim, but I also want post it here to see if anyone else had the same experience as mine.


I hope that can be sorted out. I'd like to hear the plans of both Lumagen and JVC as to if and when this might be corrected. The present solution of staying on pre-production firmware in the JVC is bad for future sales of both Lumagen and JVC. I would not be a happy camper if I had a Lumagen and upgraded to one of the new JVC's to be told by JVC that the Lumagen will likely not be compatible with any future firmwares and it's up to Lumagen to make changes if they wish to use the latest JVC firmwares.


----------



## desray2k

Clark Burk said:


> I hope that can be sorted out. I'd like to hear the plans of both Lumagen and JVC as to if and when this might be corrected. The present solution of staying on pre-production firmware in the JVC is bad for future sales of both Lumagen and JVC. I would not be a happy camper if I had a Lumagen and upgraded to one of the new JVC's to be told by JVC that the Lumagen will likely not be compatible with any future firmwares and it's up to Lumagen to make changes if they wish to use the latest JVC firmwares.


Initially, I planned to upgrade to the latest JVC NZ series but when I read about the issues between the JVC and the Lumagen, I held back. Now, I'm still using the Sony VW995ES which has zero issue with Lumagen.


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang said:


> There is one strange thing that I noticed with the Alpha 5 release. I have been using the Alpha 1 release but switched back to the 090121 firmware since I received my RS4100 because I need to use the test patterns. I have never seen a pink flash in my ~10 days of use, that's ~40 hours of usage time (1.21 firmware in JVC, and 090121 firmware in Lumagen). That's why I never changed the JVC firmware to the pre-production one even though Jim sent me that.
> 
> Yesterday, I updated the Lumagen firmware to the Alph 5 (JVC is still in 1.21 firmware), then I noticed the pink flash ~10 times in only ~ 3 hours. Looks like the Alpha 5 release made the compatibility of JVC's current firmware with Lumagen much worse. I know people are reporting that these pink flashes can happen randomly, it could be once every 10 minutes or once every few days. Now I have to switch the Lumagen firmware back to 090121 to see if the flashes would disappear or not.
> 
> I have reported this to Jim, but I also want post it here to see if anyone else had the same experience as mine.


As I said in my email response, the issue is in the JVC change to their HDMI input for their production release. It is up to JVC to correct the issue. You were only lucky before to not have seen the issue.

==== 

To me it is silly to not consider the JVC NZ series because of this JVC production firmware issue, since the preproduction firmware from JVC works great with the Radiance Pro. Other than the HDMI change and a very small change to laser-dimming (which I recommend against using in any case), the preproduction and production releases are the same. The NZ series is a great projector, and using the JVC NZ preproduction firmware should not IMO weigh on whether you want to buy one or not.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> To me it is silly to not consider the JVC NZ series because of this JVC production firmware issue, since the preproduction firmware from JVC works great with the Radiance Pro. Other than the HDMI change and a very small change to laser-dimming (which I recommend against using in any case), the preproduction and production releases are the same. The NZ series is a great projector, and using the JVC NZ preproduction firmware should not IMO weigh on whether you want to buy one or not.


I think what would worry me is jvc implementing new functionality down the road in some new firmware release.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> I think what would worry me is jvc implementing new functionality down the road in some new firmware release.


You are making two rather large assumptions:

1) That there is something amazing JVC will do to make an already great projector so much better you would feel left out not having it. Unlikely. My point is enforced by the fact that with the Radiance Pro in the system you are using the Radiance Pro for the video processing.

2) You assume JVC would do this amazing feature before they addressed their HDMI input issue. Unlikely.

Note: I realize I cannot speak for JVC. So, this is just my belief. Time will tell if I am correct.


----------



## docrog

@jrp, after the dust settles regarding the public distribution of the upcoming firmware update, would it be possible for you to catalog what changes/improvements those of us with "plain vanilla" applications (16:9 screens) are like to appreciate? Many thanks, as always, for Lumagen's incredible effort on behalf of your loyal support base!


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> @jrp, after the dust settles regarding the public distribution of the upcoming firmware update, would it be possible for you to catalog what changes/improvements those of us with "plain vanilla" applications (16:9 screens) are like to appreciate? Many thanks, as always, for Lumagen's incredible effort on behalf of your loyal support base!


Specifically for 16:9 screens the pipeline precision enhancements are about improving all content output as 4k60. The primary focus was on 4k60 (or 4k50) source, but also includes improvements for deinterlacing 480i, 576i, and 1080i content.

==== 

For 16:9 screens some of the improvements are not applicable. These are, improved 16:9 content output on a anamorphic screen for 4k60, 4k50, and 4k24, and NLS improvement. The precision of the front end of the pipeline was increased to 12-bits from 10-bits. The front-end is in pass-through for 16:9 screens. So, since content is 10-bit or less this improvement is moot for 16:9 screens. The back-end of the pipeline was already at 12-bits, or higher.

==== 

To achieve these improvements, we had to redo essentially the entire Radiance Pro video pipeline.

As a side note: I do not think I have previously mentioned that the deinterlacing logic and Darbee processing logic remain at 10-bits. Since these deal with 8-bit SDR source, staying at 10-bits is appropriate for these functions.

There have been a couple other feature additions, such as the new subtitle feature, but these are ancillary to the pipeline precision enhancements.


----------



## Scorpion66

Jue Liang said:


> There is one strange thing that I noticed with the Alpha 5 release. I have been using the Alpha 1 release but switched back to the 090121 firmware since I received my RS4100 because I need to use the test patterns. I have never seen a pink flash in my ~10 days of use, that's ~40 hours of usage time (1.21 firmware in JVC, and 090121 firmware in Lumagen). That's why I never changed the JVC firmware to the pre-production one even though Jim sent me that.
> 
> Yesterday, I updated the Lumagen firmware to the Alph 5 (JVC is still in 1.21 firmware), then I noticed the pink flash ~10 times in only ~ 3 hours. Looks like the Alpha 5 release made the compatibility of JVC's current firmware with Lumagen much worse. I know people are reporting that these pink flashes can happen randomly, it could be once every 10 minutes or once every few days. Now I have to switch the Lumagen firmware back to 090121 to see if the flashes would disappear or not.
> 
> I have reported this to Jim, but I also want post it here to see if anyone else had the same experience as mine.


Could you or someone else please take a picture if such pink flashes occur again? 
I am using NZ7 FW 1.2 with the lumagen FW 090121 and I have got once in 80h. a pink grid blinking on the whole screen with 4k60p signal of the Panasonic 424 menu. Most of time I am using 4K23.97Hz signal from AppleTV. Perhaps it depends on the input signal how often the failure occurs.


----------



## asherman8

Everything I stream on my AppleTV appears to be in 4K23.97hz, no matter Dolby Vision, HDR, etc. (at least according to the Lumagen info menu). 
Where can I find 4K60hz content? Only Blu-ray DVD’s?
Just trying to really see and take advantage of the Alpha releases. 
Thanks!


----------



## dlinsley

asherman8 said:


> Everything I stream on my AppleTV appears to be in 4K23.97hz, no matter Dolby Vision, HDR, etc. (at least according to the Lumagen info menu).
> Where can I find 4K60hz content? Only Blu-ray DVD’s?
> Just trying to really see and take advantage of the Alpha releases.
> Thanks!


YouTubeTV is the main one for me, though really it is upscaled from 720/1080. Their app doesn't support the Match Rate feature, so I also need to keep the AppleTV UI at 4k60 (in Settings). The Alpha firmware is a marked improvement.


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> As I said in my email response, the issue is in the JVC change to their HDMI input for their production release. It is up to JVC to correct the issue. You were only lucky before to not have seen the issue.
> 
> ====
> 
> To me it is silly to not consider the JVC NZ series because of this JVC production firmware issue, since the preproduction firmware from JVC works great with the Radiance Pro. Other than the HDMI change and a very small change to laser-dimming (which I recommend against using in any case), the preproduction and production releases are the same. The NZ series is a great projector, and using the JVC NZ preproduction firmware should not IMO weigh on whether you want to buy one or not.


Jim, would you please go into a bit more detail on what is happening and what type of signals are causing the issue with the firmware. What did JVC change in the way they process the HDMI input and can the alpha 5 firmware tend to aggravate the issue more with the latest JVC firmware versus the safe pre-production firmware.
To the best of your knowledge is JVC aware of the problem and if so do they have any desire to create a fixed current firmware that avoids the issue. As you said it is up to JVC to correct the issue but are they in turn saying only Lumagen is having issues so let them fix the problem?


----------



## bobof

Has anyone been able to try one of the new NP5 JVC units with a Radiance Pro? For me it's an interesting product - not least because I can't help but feel squeezed out of what I'm really happy to pay for a PJ with the current NZ series. 

I guess the biggest concern would be if such a suitable pre-release firmware to avoid flashing wasn't available; I could see that being the case as the NP5 post-dates the NZ by a bit, but I understand has the new HDMI input HW. Or is the pre-release known to work on the NP5?


----------



## EVH78

asherman8 said:


> Everything I stream on my AppleTV appears to be in 4K23.97hz, no matter Dolby Vision, HDR, etc. (at least according to the Lumagen info menu).
> Where can I find 4K60hz content?


Tv broadcast is 50/60hz, sports on Sky in UHD with HDR for example.


----------



## Clark Burk

bobof said:


> Has anyone been able to try one of the new NP5 JVC units with a Radiance Pro? For me it's an interesting product - not least because I can't help but feel squeezed out of what I'm really happy to pay for a PJ with the current NZ series.
> 
> I guess the biggest concern would be if such a suitable pre-release firmware to avoid flashing wasn't available; I could see that being the case as the NP5 post-dates the NZ by a bit, but I understand has the new HDMI input HW. Or is the pre-release known to work on the NP5?


Good question. That and what will happen if JVC brings out a firmware that can not be rolled back to earlier firmwares? At a certain date the current production projectors will likely be released with such a firmware. That is why I think we need more information on what the issue is and can or will JVC or Lumagen come out with a fix.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Jim, would you please go into a bit more detail on what is happening and what type of signals are causing the issue with the firmware. What did JVC change in the way they process the HDMI input and can the alpha 5 firmware tend to aggravate the issue more with the latest JVC firmware versus the safe pre-production firmware.
> To the best of your knowledge is JVC aware of the problem and if so do they have any desire to create a fixed current firmware that avoids the issue. As you said it is up to JVC to correct the issue but are they in turn saying only Lumagen is having issues so let them fix the problem?


The following contains some facts, some conjecture, and some design insight. Please understand I do not know all there is to know about the JVC NZ series HDMI input, and had to "fill in the gaps" with educated inference.

First: The Alpha 5 release has the same HDMI output characteristics as other Radiance Pro releases, within epsilon. That is there are always small changes, but for a good HDMI input design, since these are all in spec, all should work the same. If they don't it actually points to an issue in the down-stream device, which in this case is the projector.

JVC is certainly aware of the issue. I sent a Radiance Pro to JVC USA and they have replicated the issue. I do not know if or when the Radiance Pro I loaned JVC will be sent to the engineers in Japan.

The JVC projectors use (or at least did use before and likely have not changed) an Intel (formerly Altera) Arria 10 FPGA. This FPGA design uses a internal "soft HDMI core" for the HDMI interface. I do not know if JVC uses an actual HDMI chip for input buffer/EQ in front of the FPGA, or the internal FPGA soft core for the external world interface. However, in either case the input buffer for the HDMI core has some programmability for input buffer characteristics such as input deemphasis, and likely input gain and PLL capture characteristics. JVC changed some of these parameters for the production release.

I would never use the FPGA directly as the external world interface. I just do not trust the HDMI soft-core to be up to this task. I suspect that JVC is using the FPGA as the external world interface.

The difference between the preproduction and production NZ firmware releases for HDMI is that JVC changed some of the parameters for the HDMI soft-core to fix issues they had with a particular main-stream AVR not working with the preproduction release. I do not know if they were able to fix the issues with said AVR, but they definitely broke the NZ HDMI input in the production release for the Radiance Pro and some other devices. This is _NOT_ just an issue with the Radiance Pro. Anyone saying the issue is only with the Radiance Pro is not aware of Kris Deering's testing with other devices that I believe all show issues to some degree with the NZ production firmware, and none show issues with the NZ preproduction firmware.

I have said it before, but the Radiance Pro output has been tested on the Tektronix $200K HDMI tester (one of only a couple devices approved for HDMI certification) as having the lowest output jitter, and lowest output noise, the test person had ever measured. This was the 4XXX units and then the 5XXX units cut jitter by half, and further reduced output electrical noise. The output edge rate is on the faster end of the spec, but it is _well_ within spec. It is _not_ the Radiance Pro output that is at issue. Anyone who says the issue is the Radiance Pro, rather then the NZ switching from preproduction software (which works) to production software (which has issues), does not understand the facts of the situation, or is ignoring them.


----------



## desray2k

I think JVC is not gonna do anything if they believed in their own proprietary dynamic tone mapping styled frameAdaptHDR being the best for reproducing HDR and I believe SDR content is equally impressive without any intermediary device like a video processor/scaler to improve the PQ better than their own technology. Unless there is a sizeable number of JVC projector users also using LRP, else the engineers in JVC do not see why they need to entertain Lumagen no matter how sound the solution can be...i truly hope JVC in Japan can come up with a refined firmware that target the problematic part while retaining the new features introduced. But that's just my frank opinion.


----------



## bartl007

jqmn said:


> Thank-you for your tip but it didn't work for me. What did work is: Press and hold Center Button, After a sec also press and hold Down Button, After 5 secs release both buttons and press Menu Button.


Good to know. For my setup, you have to enter the button sequence REALLY fast for it to work. This is the screen/info that pops up for me


----------



## MOberhardt

asherman8 said:


> Everything I stream on my AppleTV appears to be in 4K23.97hz, no matter Dolby Vision, HDR, etc. (at least according to the Lumagen info menu).
> Where can I find 4K60hz content? Only Blu-ray DVD’s?
> Just trying to really see and take advantage of the Alpha releases.
> Thanks!


Gemini Man is 60p 4k HDR or DV, whichever platform that is on


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> I think JVC is not gonna do anything if they believed in their own proprietary dynamic tone mapping styled frameAdaptHDR being the best for reproducing HDR and I believe SDR content is equally impressive without any intermediary device like a video processor/scaler to improve the PQ better than their own technology. Unless there is a sizeable number of JVC projector users also using LRP, else the engineers in JVC do not see why they need to entertain Lumagen no matter how sound the solution can be...i truly hope JVC in Japan can come up with a refined firmware that target the problematic part while retaining the new features introduced. But that's just my frank opinion.


JVC has already said multiple times that they plan to address it. This is also a company that has been working on the roll out of a new projector line and a move of their factory, so they are juggling a lot. They also have had reports of the same issue from non-Lumagen users including one recently that is more repeatable than the Lumagen cases. So it is on the agenda. Patience.


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> JVC has already said multiple times that they plan to address it. This is also a company that has been working on the roll out of a new projector line and a move of their factory, so they are juggling a lot. They also have had reports of the same issue from non-Lumagen users including one recently that is more repeatable than the Lumagen cases. So it is on the agenda. Patience.


Thanks Kris for the info.


----------



## asherman8

MOberhardt said:


> Gemini Man is 60p 4k HDR or DV, whichever platform that is on


But is that only the Blu-ray version? I bought Gemini Man via iTunes on my AppleTV and while it looks incredible on my setup, the LRP Info menu still says it’s at 24hz…
(BTW, I’m currently using the Alpha 5 release)


----------



## chasiliff

Good morning!

I have fiddled around with my HDFury Vertex 2 just before my JVC RS3100 for a while now. (I tried the downgrade FW for the 3100 but it had more troubles with my receiver in the AV chain, so I'm back to 1.2) I have the fewest issues with pink smear and lost frames with EDID 35. Not sure yet, but I seem to have fewer AppleTV audio drops also. I am basically rock solid with all playback from the Apple TV and my Panny 820 and I intend to keep my receiver in the chain. Device order: *ATV/UB820- Marantz 6011- Lumagen- Vertex (using 6ft Monoprice 4k cables) then Vertex- C2G voltage inserter- 25' 4k Ruipro fiber- Projector*. The Vertex 2 EDID 35 is listed as generic EDID 4K60-420. Could someone please remind me if the Lumagen RP has 4:2:2 pipeline or it is 4:2:0? I don't want to have my Apple TV read that it has to output 4:2:0 and then give less chroma information for the RP to work with. (Please forgive me if that's not exactly what the ATV does when outputting to the RP when it sees this EDID)

Thank you!


----------



## Kris Deering

chasiliff said:


> Good morning!
> 
> I have fiddled around with my HDFury Vertex 2 just after my JVC RS3100 for a while now. (I tried the downgrade FW for the 3100 but it had more troubles with my receiver in the AV chain, so I'm back to 1.2) I have the fewest issues with pink smear and lost frames with EDID 35. Not sure yet, but I seem to have fewer AppleTV audio drops also. I am basically rock solid with all playback from the Apple TV and my Panny 820 and I intend to keep my receiver in the chain. ATV/UB820 to receiver to Lumagen to Vertex 2 via 6ft Monoprice 4k cables then Vertex2 to cablematters? voltage inserter for 25' 4k Ruipro fiber cable to Projector. The Vertex 2 EDID 35 is listed as generic EDID 4K60-420. Could someone please remind me if the Lumagen RP has 4:2:2 pipeline or it is 4:2:0? I don't want to have my Apple TV read that it has to output 4:2:0 and then give less chroma information for the RP to work with. (Please forgive me if that's not exactly what the ATV does when outputting to the RP when it sees this EDID)
> 
> Thank you!


It has a mixture of 422 and 444. The AppleTV with a 420 designated output is only for 60p content (and the content is natively 420 anyways, so you are not providing less chroma, you are providing the chroma it already has) and 422 for anything else.

Also, if you are going sources to AVR then Lumagen and still getting any types of audio drops, that is not the Lumagen as you are not doing any audio from the Lumagen.


----------



## alv

Anyone know if I should use 720P or 1080i output from a Xfinity X1 box to the LRP?


----------



## NxNW

Over the last few years, Comcast has downrezzed all the channels they carry to 720. You may as well* have the box put out 720 if you are watching traditional "TV". Not sure what the box is capable of putting out for VOD or other "streaming" content.

*I say "may as well" because it probably doesnt really matter. Normally with pristine content you would never have any device (even a good one, let alone cableco-supplied equipment) deliberately upscale and then interlace a native 720 signal only to make a downstream device de-interface it later on. But honestly this kind of image manipulation introduces artifacts much less noticeable than the compression artifacts that arise from Comcast trying to cram lots of channels in the smallest possible bandwidth. Cable feeds are just not that great. 720vs 1080 is the least of your problems..


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> Anyone know if I should use 720P or 1080i output from a Xfinity X1 box to the LRP?


Most content from cable boxes is 1080i. [EDIT] saw above post and so perhaps Comcast is 720p now.

We recommend either the equivalent of the Oppo's "Source Direct" mode if supported (so content comes out as transmitted), or 1080i if Source Direct is not supported.


----------



## MOberhardt

asherman8 said:


> But is that only the Blu-ray version? I bought Gemini Man via iTunes on my AppleTV and while it looks incredible on my setup, the LRP Info menu still says it’s at 24hz…
> (BTW, I’m currently using the Alpha 5 release)


Yeah? Even if you get it iTunes, as they normally do native rate? Hmm.


----------



## alv

Unfortunately, no source direct. When I had DTV, I used that but since I don't watch much live tv I went with my internet provider for cost. Only very fast option here.


----------



## GerryWaz

jrp said:


> Most content from cable boxes is 1080i. [EDIT] saw above post and so perhaps Comcast is 720p now.
> 
> We recommend either the equivalent of the Oppo's "Source Direct" mode if supported (so content comes out as transmitted), or 1080i if Source Direct is not supported.


As alv said, no source direct. This is what we have as options with our Comcast Xfinity digital cable:


4:3, 480i SD
4:3, 480p SD
16:9, 720p HD
16:9, 1080i HD
16:9, 1080p60 HD
16:9, 2160p30 4K UHD
16:9, 2160p60, 4K UHD (Best Available)

Still go with 1080i?


----------



## NxNW

Still 720p. That's all that is in the actual feed _arriving_ at the set top box. There's no point in touching the original; let the Lumagen do that.


----------



## bjorg

I'm watching Lullaby of Broadway, which has a reported AR of 1.37, but my LRP is reporting 178:


Code:


!I24,1,023,1080,0,0,178,220,-,0,000a,0,2,023,2160,178,2,0,p,P,01,01,178,178

Is that expected or do I need to fix a setting?


----------



## Kris Deering

Is it framed properly and just reporting the wrong aspect? I don't have that movie but I have plenty of older movies with similar aspect that all playback just fine and in proper aspect.


----------



## jrp

The Alpha 6 Pipeline enhancement release is getting close. This is a bug fix release, and the known bugs have been addressed. Assuming synthesis goes well, we should be sending the link to Alpha testers in the next day or two.

Bugs addressed are:

- Two testers reported a lock-up on input switch (I think only once each, but not sure) for Alpha 5 (only). Patrick figured this out and has it resolved. His comment was "that was a nasty bug to find" but as usual Patrick worked his magic.

- There would sometimes be left over OSD pixels from a previous OSD frame when a new OSD frame was drawn. This has been resolved.

- There is a fix for the DTM scene-cut transfer-function change being one frame late if a long Video Delay was programmed. Did not occur if "Additional Video Delay" was set to zero. Even with a long video delay it is unlikely you would see this if the first and second scenes were close in intensity. This bug has likely has been in the releases for a while, but not sure.

====

HINT: Something I always do is to pull and restore wall to the Radiance Pro after an update. We have had a couple people have some random issues after an update that went away after they pulled and restored wall power. We cannot reproduce this issue here, but I believe the microprocessor might sometimes be in a funky state after the update completes. Pulling and restoring wall power insures a clean "cold boot" when the unit is then powered on.

This is not usually necessary, but IMO it is never a bad idea to pull and restore wall power after an update. This is best done by unplugging at the wall outlet.

====

I once again have my fingers crossed that this Alpha will become Beta 1 and gets posted on the Lumagen update page. I am a bit gun shy on this given I have thought this for the past several Alpha releases, but I remain hopeful.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Bugs addressed are:
> 
> There would sometimes be left over OSD pixels from a previous OSD frame when a new OSD frame was drawn. This has been resolved.
> 
> ====


Yes, I did encounter this issue once in Alpha 5 but rarely do we need to go to the setup page these days.


----------



## alv

jrp said:


> - There is a fix for the DTM scene-cut transfer-function change being one frame late if a long Video Delay was programmed. Did not occur if "Additional Video Delay" was set to zero. Even with a long video delay it is unlikely you would see this if the first and second scenes were close in intensity. This bug has likely has been in the releases for a while, but not sure.


How did someone see this one? That is a good pair of eyes!


----------



## R.jeff

jrp said:


> The Alpha 6 Pipeline enhancement release is getting close. This is a bug fix release, and the known bugs have been addressed. Assuming synthesis goes well, we should be sending the link to Alpha testers in the next day or two.
> 
> Bugs addressed are:
> 
> - Two testers reported a lock-up on input switch (I think only once each, but not sure) for Alpha 5 (only). Patrick figured this out and has it resolved. His comment was "that was a nasty bug to find" but as usual Patrick worked his magic.
> 
> - There would sometimes be left over OSD pixels from a previous OSD frame when a new OSD frame was drawn. This has been resolved.
> 
> - There is a fix for the DTM scene-cut transfer-function change being one frame late if a long Video Delay was programmed. Did not occur if "Additional Video Delay" was set to zero. Even with a long video delay it is unlikely you would see this if the first and second scenes were close in intensity. This bug has likely has been in the releases for a while, but not sure.
> 
> ====
> 
> HINT: Something I always do is to pull and restore wall to the Radiance Pro after an update. We have had a couple people have some random issues after an update that went away after they pulled and restored wall power. We cannot reproduce this issue here, but I believe the microprocessor might sometimes be in a funky state after the update completes. Pulling and restoring wall power insures a clean "cold boot" when the unit is then powered on.
> 
> This is not usually necessary, but IMO it is never a bad idea to pull and restore wall power after an update. This is best done by unplugging at the wall outlet.
> 
> ====
> 
> I once again have my fingers crossed that this Alpha will become Beta 1 and gets posted on the Lumagen update page. I am a bit gun shy on this given I have thought this for the past several Alpha releases, but I remain hopeful.


I thought you might be more of a gambling man Jim....


----------



## totopsgr

Hello everyone. I am new to the lumagen community. I have a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4420 paired with a JVC-NX7 with a Panamorph clip-on lense on an SI Zero Edge Pro Black Diamond Screen. I just had a professional calibrator finish the setup of the lot and the results are jaw-dropping (for me at least). I am using three sources. An Oppo BDP-95, an NVIDIA TV SHIELD PRO (2019) and an Amazon Fire Stick TV 4K Max. I am using the TV SHIELD for running plex and KODI and the Fire Stick for streaming (Netflix, Prime etc.).

I noticed that in both NVIDIA and Firestick the Lumagen considers the Inputs as 4K despite the fact that I have chosen a stream that is advertised as HD (netflix). In the case of NVIDIA, I am running a movie through the KODI player that I know is a 480p format but the lumagen reports the Input as 4K. I have to note that I have turned off all scaling on the sources (NVIDIA does not allow you to turn it off really. It is limited as BASIC as the lowest option).

Questions:
1) Has Anybody experienced the same? 
2) Does this mean that if the source is perceived as 4k the lumagen is not doing upscaling since 4k in, 4k out? Is there anything I can do about this?

Thank you in advance.

Regards
Tolis


----------



## Peule_P

Probably you have the GUI in Kodi set to a 4K resolution and everything will be outputted like that.
Set the GUI to 1080p and every 1080p and lower will be outputted like that and 4K will be outputted as 4K.
Also make sure to turn on match frame rate.

Guessing you have something similar going on with your Fire stick and it will output everything as the resolution set in the Fire stick settings.
AppleTV also does the same and outputs everything as 4K independent of the source video.


----------



## thebland

* NLS Question*

i’ve been a long time Lumagen user and I’ve never used the nonlinear stretch (NLS) option.

I used it last night while watching* Casablanca *which is a 1.33:1 aspect ratio and it was tripping up my auto masking a bit and the image was randomly compressing (maybe been the source)?

So I tried out the NLS to watch at 16:9 and it looked great and everything stayed put at 16:9.

How does an NLS work? If I have a 16 x 9 film playing will it take it to 2.35 automatically? And when I watch ia 1.33 film, will it automatically take it to 1.78 (and not 2.35)? Or is there a separate NLS 16:9 an NLS 2.35 command? Or just one button do it all?

Thanks for the help!


----------



## scrowe

totopsgr said:


> Hello everyone. I am new to the lumagen community. I have a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4420 paired with a JVC-NX7 with a Panamorph clip-on lense on an SI Zero Edge Pro Black Diamond Screen. I just had a professional calibrator finish the setup of the lot and the results are jaw-dropping (for me at least). I am using three sources. An Oppo BDP-95, an NVIDIA TV SHIELD PRO (2019) and an Amazon Fire Stick TV 4K Max. I am using the TV SHIELD for running plex and KODI and the Fire Stick for streaming (Netflix, Prime etc.).
> 
> I noticed that in both NVIDIA and Firestick the Lumagen considers the Inputs as 4K despite the fact that I have chosen a stream that is advertised as HD (netflix). In the case of NVIDIA, I am running a movie through the KODI player that I know is a 480p format but the lumagen reports the Input as 4K. I have to note that I have turned off all scaling on the sources (NVIDIA does not allow you to turn it off really. It is limited as BASIC as the lowest option).
> 
> Questions:
> 1) Has Anybody experienced the same?
> 2) Does this mean that if the source is perceived as 4k the lumagen is not doing upscaling since 4k in, 4k out? Is there anything I can do about this?
> 
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> Regards
> Tolis


Unfortunately, Nvidia Shield does not have a Source Direct Mode. As it’s appears to be a chipset limitation, the Whitelist resolutions Feature in Kodi does not seem to be able to over-ride this limitation. I set the Nvidia GUI to 1080p with Ratematch app on, and whitelist all resolutions in Kodi Expert Video settings. This means that for my 480i and 576i and 720p video files they all get upscale by the Shield to 1080p, anything higher plays at native. DVDs are not horrible this way, but I do wish there was a modern player out there that supported native resolution playback.


----------



## totopsgr

scrowe said:


> Unfortunately, Nvidia Shield does not have a Source Direct Mode. As it’s appears to be a chipset limitation, the Whitelist resolutions Feature in Kodi does not seem to be able to over-ride this limitation. I set the Nvidia GUI to 1080p with Ratematch app on, and whitelist all resolutions in Kodi Expert Video settings. This means that for my 480i and 576i and 720p video files they all get upscale by the Shield to 1080p, anything higher plays at native. DVDs are not horrible this way, but I do wish there was a modern player out there that supported native resolution playback.


Thank you for your response. As advised before I switched the KODI display to 1080p. Most of my digital movie files are up to 1080p. This allows the lumagen to upscale content from 1080p to 4K. It doesn't feel like an improvement on the viewed material though. What kind of setup would allow native resolution playback of files stored locally (or NAS)?. I suspect I would have to go with a mini PC KODI setup and skip the NVDIA Shield TV solution.


----------



## 187crew003

totopsgr said:


> Thank you for your response. As advised before I switched the KODI display to 1080p. Most of my digital movie files are up to 1080p. This allows the lumagen to upscale content from 1080p to 4K. It doesn't feel like an improvement on the viewed material though. What kind of setup would allow native resolution playback of files stored locally (or NAS)?. I suspect I would have to go with a mini PC KODI setup and skip the NVDIA Shield TV solution.


Shield pro using Emby can play source direct


----------



## totopsgr

187crew003 said:


> Shield pro using Emby can play source direct


Will try that. Thanks


----------



## scrowe

187crew003 said:


> Shield pro using Emby can play source direct


As far as I know that is incorrect, albeit I playback DVD ISOs. Can you elaborate, as whilst I have Emby premium, it does not support BD ISO’s, so I use Kodi.


----------



## scrowe

totopsgr said:


> Thank you for your response. As advised before I switched the KODI display to 1080p. Most of my digital movie files are up to 1080p. This allows the lumagen to upscale content from 1080p to 4K. It doesn't feel like an improvement on the viewed material though. What kind of setup would allow native resolution playback of files stored locally (or NAS)?. I suspect I would have to go with a mini PC KODI setup and skip the NVDIA Shield TV solution.


Your Oppo should be able to playback your files Source Direct, over network?


----------



## 187crew003

scrowe said:


> As far as I know that is incorrect, albeit I playback DVD ISOs. Can you elaborate, as whilst I have Emby premium, it does not support BD ISO’s, so I use Kodi.


I have remuxes of every movie I own. And it sends 1080 as 1080. Allowing the LRP to upscale to 4K


----------



## giomania

Interesting discussion on source direct options for the shield. 

For playing local backed up media from my Nas my first choice is the OPPO 203 due to the source direct feature. However since I got on board with the 4D Wind DIY Project (4D Theater Wind Effect - DIY Home Theater Project), if I’m watching a movie with wind, I need to use Kodi on the shield because the OPPO does not report the timestamps with enough granularity for the wind tracks to operate optimally.

However for watching streaming services on the shield, I do have a memory set up for the Lumagen that limits the input to 1080p, so that is an EDID manipulation that tells the shield that the source can only take 1080p. This requires doing a research on the resolution of whatever show you’re watching because I found it’s typically not revealed in the details for any given streaming service.

I will have to check out the Kodi resolution whitelist options because I don’t believe I ever set that up.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## tigerhonaker

thebland said:


> * NLS Question*
> 
> i’ve been a long time Lumagen user and I’ve never used the nonlinear stretch (NLS) option.
> 
> I used it last night while watching* Casablanca *which is a 1.33:1 aspect ratio and it was tripping up my auto masking a bit and the image was randomly compressing (maybe been the source)?
> 
> So I tried out the NLS to watch at 16:9 and it looked great and everything stayed put at 16:9.
> 
> How does an NLS work? If I have a 16 x 9 film playing will it take it to 2.35 automatically? And when I watch ia 1.33 film, will it automatically take it to 1.78 (and not 2.35)? Or is there a separate NLS 16:9 an NLS 2.35 command? Or just one button do it all?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


If you by chance got your Lumagen from Kris Deering???
I'd suggest reaching out directly to him.
Also Jim ..............

I had both of them work with me on the my Lumagen for setting-up NLS for my 16x9 screen.

Unfortunately I didn't source my Lumagen from Kris Deering as truthfully I had no idea just how complicated the Lumagen is for a layman.
(I'll never make that mistake again)

Just as general information since I didn't purchase from Kris D. I did compensate him for all his Time and Assistance.

Thanks Kris & Jim you guys are the best,
Terry
USA


----------



## totopsgr

scrowe said:


> Your Oppo should be able to playback your files Source Direct, over network?


The Oppo can not read all file formats unfortunately


----------



## totopsgr

giomania said:


> Interesting discussion on source direct options for the shield.
> 
> For playing local backed up media from my Nas my first choice is the OPPO 203 due to the source direct feature. However since I got on board with the 4D Wind DIY Project (4D Theater Wind Effect - DIY Home Theater Project), if I’m watching a movie with wind, I need to use Kodi on the shield because the OPPO does not report the timestamps with enough granularity for the wind tracks to operate optimally.
> 
> However for watching streaming services on the shield, I do have a memory set up for the Lumagen that limits the input to 1080p, so that is an EDID manipulation that tells the shield that the source can only take 1080p. This requires doing a research on the resolution of whatever show you’re watching because I found it’s typically not revealed in the details for any given streaming service.
> 
> I will have to check out the Kodi resolution whitelist options because I don’t believe I ever set that up.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I figured out a solution through KODI. If you go to Expert Mode Settings you can whitelist quite an extensive list of video resolutions, frame rates etc as suitable to display as-is. I whitelisted everything on that extensive list since the Lumagen can process anything you through at it. Following that my files are showing up with the expected format on the input info of the lumagen, and the 4K output from the lumagen is stunning. Even low res files show up very decent on my 140inch screen. Thank you everyone for your sincere help on the matter. I hope my experience helps someone in the future.

Regards
Tolis


----------



## scrowe

totopsgr said:


> I figured out a solution through KODI. If you go to Expert Mode Settings you can whitelist quite an extensive list of video resolutions, frame rates etc as suitable to display as-is. I whitelisted everything on that extensive list since the Lumagen can process anything you through at it. Following that my files are showing up with the expected format on the input info of the lumagen, and the 4K output from the lumagen is stunning. Even low res files show up very decent on my 140inch screen. Thank you everyone for your sincere help on the matter. I hope my experience helps someone in the future.
> 
> Regards
> Tolis


Did it give you 480i and 576i and multiple refresh rates? They do not appear for me.


----------



## scrowe

187crew003 said:


> I have remuxes of every movie I own. And it sends 1080 as 1080. Allowing the LRP to upscale to 4K


That’s not what was being discussed , we were discussing 480/576/720 resolution playback. 1080 works fine, the problem is the Shield upscales everything to 1080p no matter what the source resolution is.


----------



## jrp

I sent the Pipeline Enhancement Alpha 6 link to those who requested being on the Alpha test list.

If you are interested in the details of this release I posted information here (the text with the link is the wrong post, but clicking on the link seems to go to the correct place):









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I'm watching Lullaby of Broadway, which has a reported AR of 1.37, but my LRP is reporting 178: !I24,1,023,1080,0,0,178,220,-,0,000a,0,2,023,2160,178,2,0,p,P,01,01,178,178 Is that expected or do I need to fix a setting?




www.avsforum.com


----------



## gerard1meehan

Jim,

Once the Pipeline firmware is past Alpha & Beta stasis and fully deployed will implementing Picture in Picture be on the agenda?


----------



## bearcat2002

I know this new pipeline software will clear up the jagged edges on icons on the Apple TV. Will it be that much more drastic on all video sources as well?


----------



## jrp

gerard1meehan said:


> Jim,
> 
> Once the Pipeline firmware is past Alpha & Beta status and fully deployed will implementing Picture in Picture be on the agenda?


Yes.

After we get the Pipeline Enhancement production release on the website, the top priorities will be:


Faster auto aspect for the start and end of a movie/program
PiP/PoP.

I have not decided which of these two we will tackle fist though.


----------



## jrp

bearcat2002 said:


> I know this new pipeline software will clear up the jagged edges on icons on the Apple TV. Will it be that much more drastic on all video sources as well?


Yes.

I see significant improvement on _all_ content that is output at 4k50 or 4k60.


----------



## bearcat2002

jrp said:


> Yes.
> 
> I see significant improvement on _all_ content that is output at 4k50 or 4k60.


Excellent. I am extremely excited Jim. Thank you for all the great work.


----------



## Mikesterz

Is there an option that will set the lumagen to match the output frame rate with the source frame rate and for all inputs?


----------



## jrp

Mikesterz said:


> Is there an option that will set the lumagen to match the output frame rate with the source frame rate and for all inputs?


You can do this in the Output Setup Menu, but there are direct codes that are easier.

For 9 GHz max output enter MENU 0873, and to set max output rate to 18 GHz enter MENU 0874. This enables output at 4k50 and 4k60 (only) at 3840x2160.

Then to add in 4k24 enter one of the following:


To add 4k24 and set output resolution to 3840x2160 enter MENU 0872
To add 4k24 and set output resolution to 4096x2160 enter MENU 0877
Save your changes.

Once these are entered, the output frame rate follows in the input frame rate for 24, 50, and 60 Hertz content.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Yes.
> 
> After we get the Pipeline Enhancement production release on the website, the top priorities will be:
> 
> 
> Faster auto aspect for the start and end of a movie/program
> PiP/PoP.
> 
> I have not decided which of these two we will tackle fist though.


Personally I feel faster auto aspect change should be accorded the higher priority. If it can be instantaneous before the image appears will be even better.


----------



## DigitalAV

The more I explore & experience features beyond DTM, the more nobody gonna pry my LRP from my cold dead hands. 

@jrp is DTM subtitle masking still on the docket after PiP/PoP?


----------



## xPLAYRZx

jrp said:


> After we get the Pipeline Enhancement production release on the website


Any hints as to when the rest of us (non alpha tester plebs) can access to the new firmware? Excitied for this one.


----------



## bearcat2002

Hopefully soon. Sounds like it’s working pretty darn good. Definitely good enough to be called beta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

desray2k said:


> Personally I feel faster auto aspect change should be accorded the higher priority. If it can be instantaneous before the image appears will be even better.


As a DCR lens owner I probably agree, but I've been waiting for PiP/PoP since December 2015 

The unexpected goodies like DTM have more than made up for it though!


----------



## Kurvenal

desray2k said:


> Personally I feel faster auto aspect change should be accorded the higher priority. If it can be instantaneous before the image appears will be even better.


Although it seems a bit harsh to be requesting new features before a beta version of the latest firmware is available, I would like to add my vote for making faster auto aspect at the start and end of movie/program higher priority than PiP/PoP.


----------



## aguy

Faster auto aspect ( or instantaneous ) would only be possible as far as I can tell with a significant buffer delay ( like the mad rate envy has). The buffer lag would make it allow the required hysteresis time to judge if it is a real aspect change or not. 

I don’t want such a long buffer time as it introduces a number of problems. Gaming is impossible for example. And it is also a problem if you have your audio processor before the lumagen as you would now have a significant video delay after the audio processor which you would obviously need to compensate for in your sound processor. 

I’m not Jim so these are just my thoughts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Clark Burk

aguy said:


> Faster auto aspect ( or instantaneous ) would only be possible as far as I can tell with a significant buffer delay ( like the mad rate envy has). The buffer lag would make it allow the required hysteresis time to judge if it is a real aspect change or not.
> 
> I don’t want such a long buffer time as it introduces a number of problems. Gaming is impossible for example. And it is also a problem if you have your audio processor before the lumagen as you would now have a significant video delay after the audio processor which you would obviously need to compensate for in your sound processor.
> 
> I’m not Jim so these are just my thoughts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It might be possible for them to make the auto aspect ratio change adjustable so you could use it as it is now in default or have it react faster if desired.


----------



## Ian_Currie

I wish there was more control over the duration of on screen messages - namely aspect ratio as I find it remains on screen way too long and feels obtrusive.

First world problems.


----------



## bjorg

Ian_Currie said:


> I wish there was more control over the duration of on screen messages - namely aspect ratio as I find it remains on screen way too long and feels obtrusive.
> 
> First world problems.


I disabled them and wrote my own logic. If you have an HTPC or RaspberryPi connected, it's pretty easy to do and fairly stable.


----------



## Ian_Currie

bjorg said:


> I disabled them and wrote my own logic. If you have an HTPC or RaspberryPi connected, it's pretty easy to do and fairly stable.


Interesting... are you saying there's a way to disable them within the Lumagen menus? I do have an HTPC and would be curious to learn more if you'd like to share by PM....


----------



## Kris Deering

Ian_Currie said:


> Interesting... are you saying there's a way to disable them within the Lumagen menus? I do have an HTPC and would be curious to learn more if you'd like to share by PM....


Yes, they can be disabled. I believe it is in the OTHER menu, but I'd have to look.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> The more I explore & experience features beyond DTM, the more nobody gonna pry my LRP from my cold dead hands.
> 
> @jrp is DTM subtitle masking still on the docket after PiP/PoP?


Thanks for the kind words.

The Alpha 6 release has a "Subtitle Aspect" feature that moves the bottom of the active movie/content up above the bottom of the active output raster enough so that you can see subtitles. For example for a 2.40 movie on a 2.40 screen, if you press the down-arrow (assuming up/down arrows are programmed as zoom control), the bottom of the active content moves up 8% to show the subtitle region. Check back a couple pages for my post with a detailed description. Here is a link to the post:









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I'm watching Lullaby of Broadway, which has a reported AR of 1.37, but my LRP is reporting 178: !I24,1,023,1080,0,0,178,220,-,0,000a,0,2,023,2160,178,2,0,p,P,01,01,178,178 Is that expected or do I need to fix a setting?




www.avsforum.com





This is not a "subtitle masking" feature, but I think it is what you mean by your question. Perhaps it could be called a "Subtitle unmasking feature." If this does not answer your question, please elaborate on your question.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> 
> The Alpha 6 release has a "Subtitle Aspect" feature that moves the bottom of the active movie/content up above the bottom of the active output raster enough so that you can see subtitles. For example for a 2.40 movie on a 2.40 screen, if you press the down-arrow (assuming up/down arrows are programmed as zoom control), the bottom of the active content moves up 8% to show the subtitle region. Check back a couple pages for my post with a detailed description. Here is a link to the post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> I'm watching Lullaby of Broadway, which has a reported AR of 1.37, but my LRP is reporting 178: !I24,1,023,1080,0,0,178,220,-,0,000a,0,2,023,2160,178,2,0,p,P,01,01,178,178 Is that expected or do I need to fix a setting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a "subtitle masking" feature, but I think it is what you mean by your question. Perhaps it could be called a "Subtitle unmasking feature." If this does not answer your question, please elaborate on your question.


Thanks, Jim. I meant a feature of subtitles not affecting the dynamic tone-mapping algorithm (i.e., introducing a subtitle zone "mask" to be ignored by DTM).


----------



## bjorg

Ian_Currie said:


> Interesting... are you saying there's a way to disable them within the Lumagen menus? I do have an HTPC and would be curious to learn more if you'd like to share by PM....


Here's the code repository: RadiantPi.Lumagen: Client for controlling a Lumagen RadiancePro video processor

It has samples for displaying a message and listening the display mode change events. Happy to answer any questions via DM.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I setup my RP to output 2160p, 2020 SDR for bluray content to my LS10500. I was watching Doctor Who Flux a couple nights ago and thought that the colors seemed remarkably saturated as if they were actually WCG. Last night as a test, I changed to 1B and set it up for a pass through of 1080, rec709, then changed the projector to "natural" from "digital cinema," each of which Kris had calibrated for rec709 and 2020 respectively. It wasn't my imagination. The colors looked significantly less saturated and more of what I expect from a bluray, especially on deep reds. Is this normal? I checked and double cheked that I had things setup properly. I did not think that the RP could provide additional saturation to a signal? Is this just a result of the mapping from 709-->2020? Also, Kris calibrated the projector alone, as it was before I had the RP.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Thanks, Jim. I meant a feature of subtitles not affecting the dynamic tone-mapping algorithm (i.e., introducing a subtitle zone "mask" to be ignored by DTM).


Okay, now I understand the question.

I talked to Patrick. This was not on my under-consideration list before. Not sure if I said I would add it previously or not, but it is on my under-consideration list now.

We would likely make such a DTM "do not evaluate" region a fixed area that is always masked. It would mean the masked area would not affect DTM calculations even when no subtitles are being shown. I do not think this would cause any visual issues with the DTM analysis. We would need to consider Subtitles and "Super-titles" at the top of the screen.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Can the Lumagen scale 1080p24 sources to 2160p? I've just tried a source outputting 1080p and the image is not scaling (it's a postage stamp in the middle of my screen). I assumed that I just had to enable scaling for a 1080p input but cannot seem to find where in the menus to do that... so either I'm just missing it or it's not supported.

Can someone advise me?


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Well, yes. I just stated one post above that I was doing exactly that. THE RP is specifically designed for scaling and color space conversion. You have to go into the output matrix and set it up for the type of input signal.


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> Can the Lumagen scale 1080p24 sources to 2160p? I've just tried a source outputting 1080p and the image is not scaling (it's a postage stamp in the middle of my screen). I assumed that I just had to enable scaling for a 1080p input but cannot seem to find where in the menus to do that... so either I'm just missing it or it's not supported.
> 
> Can someone advise me?


After a factory reset (MENU 0999), if your TV/projector EDID reports 4k, the Pro will scale all content to 4k without you making any setting changes.

If there is some EDID issue wiht your TV/projector, but you know it support 4k, you can tell the Pro to output 4k60 by entering MENU 0873 (for 50/60 Hertz output), and then if you also want 4k24 output (for 24 Hertz sources) enter MENU 0872. Then if this works for you Save the changes (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK).

If you cannot figure out how to get this working, contact us at the lumagen.com support email to start a support conversation.


----------



## Ian_Currie

jrp said:


> After a factory reset (MENU 0999), if your TV/projector EDID reports 4k, the Pro will scale all content to 4k without you making any setting changes.
> 
> If there is some EDID issue wiht your TV/projector, but you know it support 4k, you can tell the Pro to output 4k60 by entering MENU 0873 (for 50/60 Hertz output), and then if you also want 4k24 output (for 24 Hertz sources) enter MENU 0872. Then if this works for you Save the changes (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK).
> 
> If you cannot figure out how to get this working, contact us at the lumagen.com support email to start a support conversation.


The Lumagen is outputting 4k just fine (scaling 3860x2160 to 4096x2160 for my DCR lens) and if the source is 3860x2160 the auto-aspect ratio is working great (all setup by Kris btw). It's just not stretching 1080p sources to fill the 4096x2160 resolution.


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> The Lumagen is outputting 4k just fine (scaling 3860x2160 to 4096x2160 for my DCR lens) and if the source is 3860x2160 the auto-aspect ratio is working great (all setup by Kris btw). It's just not stretching 1080p sources to fill the 4096x2160 resolution.


You likely have a setup issue, or are not select the correct aspect ratio. Please contact lumagen.com support.


----------



## R.jeff

Confessions of a AVS junkie....
I go through these phases where all I do is think about AV equipment, upgrades, tweaks, setup changes, and improvements in the media room...this is usually followed by me spending money. I have recently done the later (the money), now I am basically just trying to make sure my setup is as good as I can get it before having a calibrator come this summer. Spending hours in the middle of the night while the family is sleeping...trying to do autocalibration when I really do not know exactly what I am doing.....looking back and forth at AVS "was that CMS0 or CMS1 he said for HDR?"

For the past week, this has resulted in me going online about every hour and waking at 5am to check the web to see if that dang alpha 6 firmware has been moved to beta so I can download it and see what all I can screw up on this setup!

Signed - Impatiently waiting for firmware I won't exactly know what to do with


----------



## Kris Deering

R.jeff said:


> Confessions of a AVS junkie....
> I go through these phases where all I do is think about AV equipment, upgrades, tweaks, setup changes, and improvements in the media room...this is usually followed by me spending money. I have recently done the later (the money), now I am basically just trying to make sure my setup is as good as I can get it before having a calibrator come this summer. Spending hours in the middle of the night while the family is sleeping...trying to do autocalibration when I really do not know exactly what I am doing.....looking back and forth at AVS "was that CMS0 or CMS1 he said for HDR?"
> 
> For the past week, this has resulted in me going online about every hour and waking at 5am to check the web to see if that dang alpha 6 firmware has been moved to beta so I can download it and see what all I can screw up on this setup!
> 
> Signed - Impatiently waiting for firmware I won't exactly know what to do with


I know a guy that offers fully customized Lumagen configurations. Takes all the guess work out of whether you are using it right for both the Lumagen and your display and input sources. Just saying...


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I'm certainly eager for you to calibrate my system again with the RP when you do a tour my direction again. Pretty sure there's a lot more you can squeak out of my modest system.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Okay, now I understand the question.
> 
> I talked to Patrick. This was not on my under-consideration list before. Not sure if I said I would add it previously or not, but it is on my under-consideration list now.
> 
> We would likely make such a DTM "do not evaluate" region a fixed area that is always masked. It would mean the masked area would not affect DTM calculations even when no subtitles are being shown. I do not think this would cause any visual issues with the DTM analysis. We would need to consider Subtitles and "Super-titles" at the top of the screen.



Really dumb question: let's say you know the exact font and color of the subtitles (e.g., Verdana, white/#FFFFFF or whatever). Would it be theoretically possible to "plug" that information into a DTM algorithm and program a way to ignore objects meeting only those conditions? Or would this be too difficult or impossible a road to consider?

I know this is a way oversimplified theoretical with a bunch of variables to be considered (like translucent anti-aliased edges not being the same color or whatever and etc.), but the idea popped in my head & I'm putting it out here nonetheless, ready for ridicule.

Hoping for a yes but will take "you clearly don't fundamentally understand enough for me to explain why but no" for an answer.


----------



## Clark Burk

R.jeff said:


> Confessions of a AVS junkie....
> I go through these phases where all I do is think about AV equipment, upgrades, tweaks, setup changes, and improvements in the media room...this is usually followed by me spending money. I have recently done the later (the money), now I am basically just trying to make sure my setup is as good as I can get it before having a calibrator come this summer. Spending hours in the middle of the night while the family is sleeping...trying to do autocalibration when I really do not know exactly what I am doing.....looking back and forth at AVS "was that CMS0 or CMS1 he said for HDR?"
> 
> For the past week, this has resulted in me going online about every hour and waking at 5am to check the web to see if that dang alpha 6 firmware has been moved to beta so I can download it and see what all I can screw up on this setup!
> 
> Signed - Impatiently waiting for firmware I won't exactly know what to do with


*We admitted we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable…..

We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity…….
(see next post below yours )*


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> Okay, now I understand the question.
> 
> I talked to Patrick. This was not on my under-consideration list before. Not sure if I said I would add it previously or not, but it is on my under-consideration list now.
> 
> We would likely make such a DTM "do not evaluate" region a fixed area that is always masked. It would mean the masked area would not affect DTM calculations even when no subtitles are being shown. I do not think this would cause any visual issues with the DTM analysis. We would need to consider Subtitles and "Super-titles" at the top of the screen.


Thanks Jim for considering this!

Would this be an optional (toggleable) feature if it was implemented? I would hate for non subtitled content to “suffer” from the exclusion of certain parts of the screen.


----------



## Grifo

desray2k said:


> Personally I feel faster auto aspect change should be accorded the higher priority. If it can be instantaneous before the image appears will be even better.


Oh you are indeed very right .. Last weekend I had the unfotunate idea of watching not one but two movies with variable aspects and it was a nightmare… when the movie was coming back to the previous aspect, the new one had already to be set…
but also in moviies with a stable aspect I would love to get the mask moved to the right position faster…


----------



## alv

How fast do the moveable masks move? Are the motors so fast that applying a quick auto aspect ratio completely solves the problem?


----------



## mhafner

jrp said:


> Okay, now I understand the question.
> 
> I talked to Patrick. This was not on my under-consideration list before. Not sure if I said I would add it previously or not, but it is on my under-consideration list now.
> 
> We would likely make such a DTM "do not evaluate" region a fixed area that is always masked. It would mean the masked area would not affect DTM calculations even when no subtitles are being shown. I do not think this would cause any visual issues with the DTM analysis. We would need to consider Subtitles and "Super-titles" at the top of the screen.


Yes, please. I see the darkening effects of subtitles all the time.


----------



## Ian_Currie

mhafner said:


> Yes, please. I see the darkening effects of subtitles all the time.


Darkening? I see them as super bright white most of the time.


----------



## docrog

Ian_Currie said:


> Darkening? I see them as super bright white most of the time.


Perhaps he meant that the image darkened during HDR scenes with closed captioning due to the bright captions causing the RP DTM to miscalculate.


----------



## jrp

Grifo said:


> Oh you are indeed very right .. Last weekend I had the unfortunate idea of watching not one but two movies with variable aspects and it was a nightmare… when the movie was coming back to the previous aspect, the new one had already to be set…
> but also in movies' with a stable aspect I would love to get the mask moved to the right position faster…


First, let me say the following is not addressed at you so much at the directors being stupid and changing aspect ratios within a movie. No offense is meant, but I must express my frustration on this topic.

Picture me stepping up on my soap box...

You should _NEVER_ leave auto aspect active for an iMAX or other dumbly produced movie/content that changes aspect ratio during the movie/content. If you like the changes (I definitely hate them), then preselect 16:9 manually as the aspect ratio. This is the intended screen aspect ratio for this content.

If you have an anamorphic screen, and like me hate these changes, and understand they are intended _only_ for a 16:9 screen, then manually select the anamorphic aspect ratio (e.g. 2.40) and watch the entire movie as it would be shown in a commercial theater that has an anamorphic screen.

The more I think about the idiocy of changing aspect ratio in the middle of content the more I hate it. Just plain stupid IMO. I am all about director's intent, but in this case, it strains my desire for this when the aspect ratio changes and pulls you right out of the movie. So, I watch iMAX movies (and other aspect changing content) by manually selecting 2.40 for our Lumagen Demo Theater 2.40 screen. This follows the directors intent for an anamorphic screen viewing and does not irritate the _&(&%$_ out of me since it eliminates the aspect changes.

To repeat: Our Radiance Pro Auto Aspect should never be used for changing content within a movie, even after we make it faster. This is even more true if you have moving masks. They can take forever (okay just way too long) to change. Masking should _never_ be changed during the movie/content. That's even worse than the content changing aspect.

Picture me now stepping down from my soap box a little calmer for having vented my frustration.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Thanks Jim for considering this!
> 
> Would this be an optional (toggleable) feature if it was implemented? I would hate for non subtitled content to “suffer” from the exclusion of certain parts of the screen.


It is much preferable to not add another manual-selection work-around for content that has closed captions within the active image area. We would work to make this an always active feature unless it impacts the DTM frame analysis too much. I think this would be the case. However, if it does affect DTM too much, we would then likely make it a selectable feature.

Note: For closed captions only partially within the active area (e.g. Netflix on a Roku) they are already ignored since DTM does not analyze the top or bottom few active scanlines for DTM for this reason, and the fact that little or nothing goes on in these areas that is not picked up in other areas of the image.


----------



## Kris Deering

Grifo said:


> Oh you are indeed very right .. Last weekend I had the unfotunate idea of watching not one but two movies with variable aspects and it was a nightmare… when the movie was coming back to the previous aspect, the new one had already to be set…
> but also in moviies with a stable aspect I would love to get the mask moved to the right position faster…


This is one of the reasons I NEVER recommend having the masking controlled automatically and just recommend clients to select the aspect manually. 

I also recommend locking the aspect if you are watching something that shifts. If you know the movie has parts that go to 16x9, just lock the aspect for the wide format when the movie starts so you don't get the jarring (and useless) jumps to different aspects that are not designed for scope screens anyways.


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> First, let me say the following is not addressed at you so much at the directors being stupid and changing aspect ratios within a movie. No offense is meant, but I must express my frustration on this topic.
> 
> Picture me stepping up on my soap box...
> 
> You should _NEVER_ leave auto aspect active for an iMAX or other dumbly produced movie/content that changes aspect ratio during the movie/content. If you like the changes (I definitely hate them), then preselect 16:9 manually as the aspect ratio. This is the intended screen aspect ratio for this content.
> 
> If you have an anamorphic screen, and like me hate these changes, and understand they are intended _only_ for a 16:9 screen, then manually select the anamorphic aspect ratio (e.g. 2.40) and watch the entire movie as it would be shown in a commercial theater that has an anamorphic screen.
> 
> The more I think about the idiocy of changing aspect ratio in the middle of content the more I hate it. Just plain stupid IMO. I am all about director's intent, but in this case, it strains my desire for this when the aspect ratio changes and pulls you right out of the movie. So, I watch iMAX movies (and other aspect changing content) by manually selecting 2.40 for our Lumagen Demo Theater 2.40 screen. This follows the directors intent for an anamorphic screen viewing and does not irritate the _&(&%$_ out of me since it eliminates the aspect changes.
> 
> To repeat: Our Radiance Pro Auto Aspect should never be used for changing content within a movie, even after we make it faster. This is even more true if you have moving masks. They can take forever (okay just way too long) to change. Masking should _never_ be changed during the movie/content. That's even worse than the content changing aspect.
> 
> Picture me now stepping down from my soap box a little calmer for having vented my frustration.


Amen, preach on brother!!!


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> It is much preferable to not add another manual-selection work-around for content that has closed captions within the active image area. We would work to make this an always active feature unless it impacts the DTM frame analysis too much. I think this would be the case. However, if it does affect DTM too much, we would then likely make it a selectable feature.
> 
> Note: For closed captions only partially within the active area (e.g. Netflix on a Roku) they are already ignored since DTM does not analyze the top or bottom few active scanlines for DTM for this reason, and the fact that little or nothing goes on in these areas that is not picked up in other areas of the image.


Sorry for the follow up questions: 

I'm assuming many people with scope screens have subtitles in the active content area, since they may use subtitle shift or something similar? (unsure)

I guess I'm also wondering how this would affect people who manually turn on a set of subtitles for the whole film. For example, watching an English-spoken film with the english subtitles on all the time. Would that impact this algorithm or not?

I guess my reason for not wanting sections of the image to be excluded from all DTM processing is because with 16:9 content, and for people not turning on subtitles (i.e. only watching forced subtitles), they could have a different DTM experience (potentially) than they would if the entire image area is taking into account during DTM calculations.

Just thinking out loud...


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> I'm assuming many people with scope screens have subtitles in the active content area, since they may use subtitle shift or something similar? (unsure)
> 
> I guess I'm also wondering how this would affect people who manually turn on a set of subtitles for the whole film. For example, watching an English-spoken film with the English subtitles on all the time. Would that impact this algorithm or not?
> 
> I guess my reason for not wanting sections of the image to be excluded from all DTM processing is because with 16:9 content, and for people not turning on subtitles (i.e. only watching forced subtitles), they could have a different DTM experience (potentially) than they would if the entire image area is taking into account during DTM calculations.
> 
> Just thinking out loud...


I was trying to say in my previous post that I do not think the areas where the subtitles are, for any content aspect, are areas that will change the DTM analysis if masked out of the analysis. Saying this another way, I believe these areas will have content similar to other content in the image and so the DTM analysis (frame MAXCLL, etc.) will not be affected enough to be noticed by humans.

However, as I also said, we do not know yet for sure, and we would make the judgement as to having this "mask subtitles for DTM analysis" be selectable as on or off after it is implemented (should we implement it).

Since subtitle tend to be bright, we may be able to do a digital correlation to dynamically determine if the subtitle area has subtitles or not and include/exclude the area from DTM analysis on a frame by frame basis. I would much prefer this to a manual control, but again we do not know yet and so I do not have a definitive answer for you.


----------



## woofer

Kris Deering said:


> Amen, preach on brother!!!


Yes !!....... i HATE , HATE with a passion aspect changes!! Absolute idiotic concept..


----------



## Kris Deering

woofer said:


> Yes !!....... i HATE , HATE with a passion aspect changes!! Absolute idiotic concept..


I understand the concept, because the VAST majority of people have 16x9 screens, so there really isn't any jump. They are pandering to the masses, which is understandable and fairly seamless. 

I actually had a conversation with an "industry expert" yesterday about this and he was saying it was absolutely the intent of Christopher Nolan to have the different aspects. I said it was for theaters that had 16x9 or IMAX screens, but not scope screens. He said it wasn't like that in scope screens because DCi can't do it. I think that is patently ridiculous on a few levels. One, they could have framed anything they wanted in the transfer as evidenced by movies that already have multiple aspects on scope screens (Wes Anderson comes to mind immediately), so if Nolan wanted it, it would be there. But the part that immediately tells you this is BS is the WIDTH aspect of it. Nolan is ALWAYS doing constant width in the other formats (IMAX or 16x9) and just opening up above. I can't even begin to think that he would be happy watching his content bounce in width on a scope presentation just to add some head/toe room for an image. Not a chance. Especially in content that bounces more often between the two (Interstellar comes to mind). It is easy to not get distracted by the taller aspect (I've been to A LOT of true IMAX presentations of his films and in many cases you can actually miss the height transitions unless the quality impact is different like it was in stuff like TDK) but you would definitely notice on a scope screen if the image was bouncing between full scope and 16x9 and I guarantee people would be like WTF!!!


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

OK, so if I set the aspect ratio to 2.40 for these films, am I stuck with the content in the tall aspect section spilling over above and below or is there a specific setting in the RP that resizes it to fit upper and lower bounds of 2.40? I'm still getting the hang of the multitudinous ways it can be used...


----------



## Kris Deering

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> OK, so if I set the aspect ratio to 2.40 for these films, am I stuck with the content in the tall aspect section spilling over above and below or is there a specific setting in the RP that resizes it to fit upper and lower bounds of 2.40? I'm still getting the hang of the multitudinous ways it can be used...


It will automatically crop and blank out anything above and below the scope framing. So you'd be seeing what was shown in theaters (unless they tweaked framing, but even then I imagine it would be really close). I know the Transformers movie is a bit of an exception, but that movie is batshit crazy when it comes to aspect changes, most of which make absolutely no sense at all. I am honestly flabbergasted that Bay found a DP that was okay with that presentation.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> I understand the concept, because the VAST majority of people have 16x9 screens, so there really isn't any jump. They are pandering to the masses, which is understandable and fairly seamless.
> 
> I actually had a conversation with an "industry expert" yesterday about this and he was saying it was absolutely the intent of Christopher Nolan to have the different aspects. I said it was for theaters that had 16x9 or IMAX screens, but not scope screens. He said it wasn't like that in scope screens because DCi can't do it. I think that is patently ridiculous on a few levels. One, they could have framed anything they wanted in the transfer as evidenced by movies that already have multiple aspects on scope screens (Wes Anderson comes to mind immediately), so if Nolan wanted it, it would be there. But the part that immediately tells you this is BS is the WIDTH aspect of it. Nolan is ALWAYS doing constant width in the other formats (IMAX or 16x9) and just opening up above. I can't even begin to think that he would be happy watching his content bounce in width on a scope presentation just to add some head/toe room for an image. Not a chance. Especially in content that bounces more often between the two (Interstellar comes to mind). It is easy to not get distracted by the taller aspect (I've been to A LOT of true IMAX presentations of his films and in many cases you can actually miss the height transitions unless the quality impact is different like it was in stuff like TDK) but you would definitely notice on a scope screen if the image was bouncing between full scope and 16x9 and I guarantee people would be like WTF!!!


What was the middle thing?


----------



## desray2k

I guess Christopher Nolan don't give a rats ass as to how his movie will translate into a home theatre setting...LoL.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I'm pretty sure Christopher Nolan doesn't give a rats ass about any viewer. He only cares about his own artistic vision. Viewers are to be grateful for his artistry.


----------



## MOberhardt

Kris Deering said:


> I understand the concept, because the VAST majority of people have 16x9 screens, so there really isn't any jump. They are pandering to the masses, which is understandable and fairly seamless.
> 
> I actually had a conversation with an "industry expert" yesterday about this and he was saying it was absolutely the intent of Christopher Nolan to have the different aspects. I said it was for theaters that had 16x9 or IMAX screens, but not scope screens. He said it wasn't like that in scope screens because DCi can't do it. I think that is patently ridiculous on a few levels. One, they could have framed anything they wanted in the transfer as evidenced by movies that already have multiple aspects on scope screens (Wes Anderson comes to mind immediately), so if Nolan wanted it, it would be there. But the part that immediately tells you this is BS is the WIDTH aspect of it. Nolan is ALWAYS doing constant width in the other formats (IMAX or 16x9) and just opening up above. I can't even begin to think that he would be happy watching his content bounce in width on a scope presentation just to add some head/toe room for an image. Not a chance. Especially in content that bounces more often between the two (Interstellar comes to mind). It is easy to not get distracted by the taller aspect (I've been to A LOT of true IMAX presentations of his films and in many cases you can actually miss the height transitions unless the quality impact is different like it was in stuff like TDK) but you would definitely notice on a scope screen if the image was bouncing between full scope and 16x9 and I guarantee people would be like WTF!!!


I got to personally say, on both a TV and then a projector, seeing these films in IMAX switch is utterly jaw dropping. Especially Interstellar. But my response is more "OMG I wish the ENTIRE movie looked like this, and the it sends me down the trail of why don't they just small movies IMAX, to what is this 2.35:1 obsession, to the whole cinemas anamorphic filming rabbit hole when you understand 2.35:1 came about with aspherical lenses horizontally compressing the image, and it was much harder to shoot anamorphic film's (a la John Carpenter / Dean Cundey), and following that loser filmmakers and cinematographers with much lower pathetic. skill levels, a la James Cameron, shoot stuff in fake anamorphic where they just shoot 16:9 and variably (eg shift frame up and down) trim the image to 2.35, to pretend they are skill full enough to shoot something anamorphically... And for some reason people think 2.35:1, which doesn't match the human eye's field of view, with ultimate, based on this premise that 2.35:1 is the goal, based on the benchmark that filming anamorphically is extremely difficult. But 99% of 2.35 material being inflicted on you is fake cropped 2.35.

I do not understand the whole 2.35:1 love affair...


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> This is even more true if you have moving masks. They can take forever (okay just way too long) to change. Masking should _never_ be changed during the movie/content. That's even worse than the content changing aspect.


Again, user preference. In my batcave, once eyes are adjusted, the black bars from my projector are actually grey. Noticeably so. Without masks, and grey bars visible, the image looks flatter and the grey bars break the illusion of looking through a "window" into the scene. The image suffers and I find that distracting. With masks engaged, the image looks subjectively deeper and there is no distraction from the bars. YES, the masks have to move into place but it's worth it. When shrinking, eg going from 2.35 to 1.78, you tend not to notice the masks moving as they are moving in the dark. Going from 1.78 to 2.35 you do indeed see them because the film is briefly projected over them, but it only takes a few seconds and it's in the periphery so you're not overly drawn to them.

For extreme movies like Tenet, I'll admit, moving masks doesn't work as they cannot keep up and I would disengage them. For all other "reasonable" material where aspect changes stick around for longer than the masks take to move, moving masks make a big improvement.


----------



## Drexler

jrp said:


> First, let me say the following is not addressed at you so much at the directors being stupid and changing aspect ratios within a movie. No offense is meant, but I must express my frustration on this topic.
> 
> Picture me stepping up on my soap box...
> 
> You should _NEVER_ leave auto aspect active for an iMAX or other dumbly produced movie/content that changes aspect ratio during the movie/content. If you like the changes (I definitely hate them), then preselect 16:9 manually as the aspect ratio. This is the intended screen aspect ratio for this content.
> 
> If you have an anamorphic screen, and like me hate these changes, and understand they are intended _only_ for a 16:9 screen, then manually select the anamorphic aspect ratio (e.g. 2.40) and watch the entire movie as it would be shown in a commercial theater that has an anamorphic screen.
> 
> The more I think about the idiocy of changing aspect ratio in the middle of content the more I hate it. Just plain stupid IMO. I am all about director's intent, but in this case, it strains my desire for this when the aspect ratio changes and pulls you right out of the movie. So, I watch iMAX movies (and other aspect changing content) by manually selecting 2.40 for our Lumagen Demo Theater 2.40 screen. This follows the directors intent for an anamorphic screen viewing and does not irritate the _&(&%$_ out of me since it eliminates the aspect changes.
> 
> To repeat: Our Radiance Pro Auto Aspect should never be used for changing content within a movie, even after we make it faster. This is even more true if you have moving masks. They can take forever (okay just way too long) to change. Masking should _never_ be changed during the movie/content. That's even worse than the content changing aspect.
> 
> Picture me now stepping down from my soap box a little calmer for having vented my frustration.


I get the point, but how do I do with aspect ratio shifting tv series which often switch between 2:1 and 2.4:1?? (E.g. the Expanse). I'd hate to lock the aspect to 16:9 or 1.85:1 as that would leave all sides unmasked and the image smaller than necessary. Also 2.4:1 doesnt work either as the shots have not been framed for this which results in cropped heads. In addition, 80-90% of the scenes are in the 2:1 format, so I'd rather keep those optimal and not lose out in details in most of the scenes.
Can you somehow lock the aspect to any ratio you want? E.g. 2:1?


----------



## Clark Burk

desray2k said:


> I guess Christopher Nolan don't give a rats ass as to how his movie will translate into a home theatre setting...LoL.


Probably cares about selling his movie to the studios that want to sell to the largest segment of home users which have standard 16:9 TVs. We are a very small minority unfortunately that although we spend more on our home theaters we are a very small percentage of the overall dollars spent.


----------



## J.P

I don't have a Lumagen or anamorphic-lens today. But I must say considering both with my 2.35:1 screen i really wish Lumagen did instant aspect-ratio change. Like it or not there is just too much content both on blu-ray and streaming with shifting aspect ratio.

I have also been thinking about changing my screen to a 16:9 aspect ratio so i have the option to remove masking panels whenever I feel like watching the Nolan movies or other content that fits a taller aspect better than a scoop screen ( no, i don't want a 180" diagonal scoop screen)


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> Yes.
> 
> After we get the Pipeline Enhancement production release on the website, the top priorities will be:
> 
> 
> Faster auto aspect for the start and end of a movie/program
> PiP/PoP.
> 
> I have not decided which of these two we will tackle fist though.


auto aspect please. Real time please?


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> This is one of the reasons I NEVER recommend having the masking controlled automatically and just recommend clients to select the aspect manually.
> 
> I also recommend locking the aspect if you are watching something that shifts. If you know the movie has parts that go to 16x9, just lock the aspect for the wide format when the movie starts so you don't get the jarring (and useless) jumps to different aspects that are not designed for scope screens anyways.


I use automatic masking (which also can be turned off), from only Kaleidescape. I use the provided aspect ratio from the K control system (with some minor tweaks as they don’t handle all ARs but you can get it anyway). As you know, K doesn’t typically switch AR for movies. I can do masking using Lumagen info, but dont use much. I manually select masking for all other sources besides K… Works well for my setup which is 16:9 with top masking.. SJ


----------



## aguy

SJHT said:


> I use automatic masking (which also can be turned off), from only Kaleidescape. I use the provided aspect ratio from the K control system (with some minor tweaks as they don’t handle all ARs but you can get it anyway). As you know, K doesn’t typically switch AR for movies. I can do masking using Lumagen info, but dont use much. I manually select masking for all other sources besides K… Works well for my setup which is 16:9 with top masking.. SJ


Likewise I use automated masking with metadata that I store with them movie in kodi. 

I use the stored aspect ratio to control the side masking as well as control the aspect ratio of the lumagen which then locks the aspect ratio on the lumagen. I don’t use auto aspect on the lumagen anymore because of the delay. When I hit play on Kodi on a movie the masking panels start moving straight away to the right position and the movie is zoomed to the right aspect ratio on the lumagen immediately. It’s seamless 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

J.P said:


> I don't have a Lumagen or anamorphic-lens today. But I must say considering both with my 2.35:1 screen i really wish Lumagen did instant aspect-ratio change. Like it or not there is just too much content both on blu-ray and streaming with shifting aspect ratio.
> 
> I have also been thinking about changing my screen to a 16:9 aspect ratio so i have the option to remove masking panels whenever I feel like watching the Nolan movies or other content that fits a taller aspect better than a scoop screen ( no, i don't want a 180" diagonal scoop screen)


You do not need and should not use "auto aspect" for aspect changing content. If content has multiple aspect ratios, and you want to see the aspect changes, select the smallest aspect. Then the aspect ratios work as intended without any "auto aspect" feature.


For iMAX, select 16:9. Then both the 16:9 and 2.40 sections will be as intended. This is true even on a 2.40 screen!
If the content is, for example, 2.0 and 2.35, select 2.0 aspect. Then once again the aspect ratios will be as intended.

I do not like seeing the changes and prefer to watch the content at 2.40 on our 2.40 screen. However, as I acknowledged in my previous posts on this, others do want to see the aspect changes. My point here is that auto-aspect within content is not needed to "watch as the director intended" for iMAX, or other aspect changing content. Using Auto-aspect to sense changes and make the 16:9 sections smaller on an anamorphic screen is the opposite of the director's intent and just plain wrong.


----------



## danam

Hi, can someone please confirm the patterns provided by the Radiance Pro are 10 bit ?
Trying to do a 3D LUT using Colourspace.


----------



## Kris Deering

danam said:


> Hi, can someone please confirm the patterns provided by the Radiance Pro are 10 bit ?
> Trying to do a 3D LUT using Colourspace.


What does the bit depth of the patterns have to do with anything? The Radiance is an RGB test pattern generator, it works for any pattern that needs to be generated for a calibration.


----------



## danam

Because there is a box in the colourspace settings asking for the patch scale resolution ...


----------



## bobof

danam said:


> Because there is a box in the colourspace settings asking for the patch scale resolution ...


As far as I understand it's 8 bit pattern generation. The patch values sent are 0-255, though if you are outputting video range you actually end up with a bit more than 8 bit as the 8 bit values are then compressed to 16-235.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Best thing I did was get an anamorphic lens. So with those stupid multi aspect movies I just set it to 2:35 and enjoy the movie.


----------



## Mark_H

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Best thing I did was get an anamorphic lens. So with those stupid multi aspect movies I just set it to 2:35 and enjoy the movie.


You don't need an anamorphic lens to achieve this method of image cropping.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Mark_H said:


> You don't need an anamorphic lens to achieve this method of image cropping.


That’s right you don’t. I had a lens before I got the lumagen. Having both is just icing on the cake 😁


----------



## mhafner

docrog said:


> Perhaps he meant that the image darkened during HDR scenes with closed captioning due to the bright captions causing the RP DTM to miscalculate.


Exactly. (Top) White subtitles, when on with the first frame after a cut, darken the rest of the image, since the DTM thinks it has to avoid clipping with these top white areas present and reduces overall brightness. When the subtitles appear after the cut it does not happen (quickly) since the DTM knows it can't do quick adaptations within the same shot as it would be visible and distracting.


----------



## Sittler27

Streaming Peaky Blinders on Netflix via Nvidia Shield through my Lumagen to my NZ9.

I get occasional jitter in the video, like it’s dropping frames or something. 

Is there some setting I’m missing that makes it smooth?


----------



## fatherom

Sittler27 said:


> Streaming Peaky Blinders on Netflix via Nvidia Shield through my Lumagen to my NZ9.
> 
> I get occasional jitter in the video, like it’s dropping frames or something.
> 
> Is there some setting I’m missing that makes it smooth?


When you bring up the info screen (pressing enter on remote) what are the input frame rate and output frame rate?

If “rate match” is off, you may have 24.000 (or 25.000?) being converted to 23.976.


----------



## Kris Deering

It is probably a Shield issue. You have to do tricks with it to be able to get native frame rate output from Netflix.


----------



## bearcat2002

I'm hoping soon that Alpha 6 becomes beta!!!!! I'm ready to try it out!!!


----------



## jrp

Pipeline Enhancement Alpha release update:

Patrick found and fixed an issue with the vertical shift in Alpha 6. While Alpha 6 is working very well, I want the Beta to be as clean as we can make it. So we will send out an Alpha 7 including this fix.

I asked Patrick to go ahead and resynthesize with the fix, so we can release an Alpha 7. I am hoping to send out a link to Alpha 7 in the next day to two days. Then fingers crossed once more that Alpha 7 will become Beta 1.

If you can't wait for the Beta, you can email me at lumagen.com support and get on the Alpha release email list.


----------



## Clark Burk

Jim I can appreciate the desire to have a perfect release but I’m starting to worry we may never get to use the the new pipeline for the majority of us that aren’t alpha testers. Perhaps a beta release with the fore knowledge that there may still be a few issues as we all know you guys are always working on improvements. It’s been seven months and I think I’ve forgoten how to do a firmware update .


----------



## bearcat2002

Clark Burk said:


> Jim I can appreciate the desire to have a perfect release but I’m starting to worry we may never get to use the the new pipeline for the majority of us that aren’t alpha testers. Perhaps a beta release with the fore knowledge that there may still be a few issues as we all know you guys are always working on improvements. It’s been seven months and I think I’ve forgoten how to do a firmware update .


Please read Jim's post right above yours. Olive branch.


----------



## Des511

Is the black level setting in the Lumagen a global setting or can it set at different levels and saved in the memory slots?


----------



## Clark Burk

No harm, I kind of liked the way OPPO used to release their firmwares. They had an official release that was a safe version and if you wanted a mostly trouble free user experience you would just stay with that and wait for the next official release. Meanwhile beta firmwares would be released that tested new features that possibly had some issues. When a beta become problem free it would become the next official release. It seems like Lumagen has changed the firmware pattern in that the alpha testers continue to test the releases until the release is problem free then it will get an official release. The beta versions seem to have been eliminated. As long as it’s possible to revert to a prior firmware to eliminate any problem issues I don’t see the harm with releasing betas but perhaps this latest round of updates can’t be turned back.


----------



## bobof

Des511 said:


> Is the black level setting in the Lumagen a global setting or can it set at different levels and saved in the memory slots?


It's attached to the CMS. If you need multiple settings for different devices or memory slots (you shouldn't if the devices are sensible) then you can duplicate the CMS and configure the Lumagen to use a different CMS for that device / slot.


----------



## jrp

Des511 said:


> Is the black level setting in the Lumagen a global setting or can it set at different levels and saved in the memory slots?


To add to bobof's response:

There is a Black Level with each CMS as he mentions.

There is also a black level associated with each input configuration memory:

*MENU . Input . In Configs . [Resolution] . [#] . Picture . (Black, White)*

The "#" is the input configuration memory for the active resolution currently selected. Note that at default changing this "Black Level" changes the input Black Level for all inputs and input memories for the active source resolution. Before making a change that you want to affect only one input you need to use the Input Menu to point that input to a different input configuration for that resolution.

Having this "indirection" has benefits, but if a change is to affect only one input, there is the extra step shown above. I think the hardest part may be remembering this indirection exists. 

One case to think about is if a source sends interlaced content in the wrong field order, but other sources have the correct field order. We now have the "Auto Flip" for field order and this is the default. So no need to touch this control to correct field order in most cases now.

However, before the "Auto Flip Field" was added, I caught myself once manually changing to "flip fields" for the source that had the wrong field order, only to be surprised (should not have been) that the source with correct field order then looked wrong. I then had my "oh, that's right" moment and remembered I needed to point the source with the wrong field order to a different source configuration memory (for both 480i and 1080i since this is per input resolution). Once I did that and made the appropriate changes both sources looked right for interlaced content.

We made input configuration memories per-input-resolution because back in the day SD and HD from some popular sources had different black levels.


----------



## jrp

Comments on our Alpha, Beta, and Production, release strategy:

Note: You can revert to an older release if you find issues with any Alpha, Beta, or Production, release. Should we ever make a change (e.g. a major data structure change) that would prevent reverting to an older release we would make this clear on the update page. However, we do not expect to do any releases that prevent reverting to older releases. I mention the possibility for completeness.

Alpha: My goal for Alpha is to find and fix all bugs in the Pipeline Enhancement update. However, given Alpha releases are only tested by the 50-ish people who asked to be on the Alpha list, there may be issues not discovered. We are doing the Alpha 7 release since we did find (hopefully) the last bug before Beta release and I did not want to go to Beta with a known issue (vertical shift even though it is not commonly used).

Beta: So then comes Beta release(s). I expect this will entice hundreds of Radiance Pro owners to update to the Pipeline Enhancement Beta. While we do not expect issues, given how varied the configurations settings people use are, and possible FPGA variance, there may be cases that did not get tested in Alpha. At this level technical Radiance Pro owners can feel confident they will not experience significant issues in daily use, and if there are issues they can revert to an earlier release. Some dealers may choose to load the Beta for their more adventuresome clients.

Production: After we have a solid Beta, we will release to Production and mark the release as Production on the Lumagen website. When we release to Production we believe everyone can use the release, and dealers can load it on even non-technical client's Radiance Pro units and expect excellent results.

=========

Throughout Lumagen's history we have had what I think is an exceptional relationship with our customers and their willingness to help us by testing changes and reporting bugs. For our part we always prioritize bug fixes and do our best to resolve issues even when they are caused by the marginal design in other HDMI products.

The Pipeline Enhancement Alpha and Beta releases continue this relationship. We want to again thank everyone who is taking time to load the Alpha and Beta releases and report any issues back to us. Being a small company, we really could not do this without your help. Way too many variables, and products, to test everything here for every release. Know that your efforts are appreciated and help us provide you with the best video processor possible.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

jrp said:


> The Pipeline Enhancement Alpha and Beta releases continue this relationship. We want to again thank everyone who is taking time to load the Alpha and Beta releases and report any issues back to us. Being a small company, we really could not do this without your help. Way too many variables, and products, to test everything here for every release. Know that your efforts are appreciated and help us provide you with the best video processor possible.


Jim ... I look forward to the release of your Beta version. Even though this has been a long time coming, I appreciate the effort that you and the Lumagen Team put into the development of your product. I fully understand that you can never test every combination of devices particularly, when as you say, some do not properly conform to agreed standards. So I am happy for you to continue to refine the Alpha releases prior to any Beta release.


----------



## graticular

I have a 2.35 scope screen just arrived, and an NZ9 on order. I am thinking of getting a lumagen and have read this on a website, concerning autoaspect:

"Please note that the resolution will be restricted within the panel to around 1452 x 817 (for a 2.35:1 screen) instead of 1920 x 1080 (on a 1080p projector) and 1634 x 2904 on a UHD panel, but for the majority these resolutions are more than enough. Also to be noted is that the whole panel will not be used for the 16x9 image meaning the luminance will be less than if the whole panel was used. "

Does this make sense to anybody, and if so could somebody please explain this to me in very simple language. Does it mean that using the autoaspect will result in a loss of brightness or resolution compared with using lens memories?


----------



## Kris Deering

graticular said:


> I have a 2.35 scope screen just arrived, and an NZ9 on order. I am thinking of getting a lumagen and have read this on a website, concerning autoaspect:
> 
> "Please note that the resolution will be restricted within the panel to around 1452 x 817 (for a 2.35:1 screen) instead of 1920 x 1080 (on a 1080p projector) and 1634 x 2904 on a UHD panel, but for the majority these resolutions are more than enough. Also to be noted is that the whole panel will not be used for the 16x9 image meaning the luminance will be less than if the whole panel was used. "
> 
> Does this make sense to anybody, and if so could somebody please explain this to me in very simple language. Does it mean that using the autoaspect will result in a loss of brightness or resolution compared with using lens memories?


If you are not using a DCR lens and just want auto aspect with the zoom set to fill the width of your screen at all times, there will be a brightness difference doing it this way compared to changing the zoom. The brightness will be consistent across all aspects with the Lumagen doing the auto aspect. If you change zooms, the brightness of the image will fluctuate because you are changing the zoom and image size constantly.


----------



## graticular

Thanks Kris. I get it about changing the zoom changing brightness, but if you are keeping the image height constant wouldn't the brightness for a full height 16:9 image be the same regardless of whether autoaspect was used or not (the image dimensions being identical in each case)?


----------



## Kris Deering

graticular said:


> Thanks Kris. I get it about changing the zoom changing brightness, but if you are keeping the image height constant wouldn't the brightness for a full height 16:9 image be the same regardless of whether autoaspect was used or not (the image dimensions being identical in each case)?


With Lumagen auto aspect: brightness of ALL aspects is identical

With projector lens zooming: brightness of ALL aspects different (unless you have different picture modes with different calibrations to try and match them)


----------



## Sittler27

fatherom said:


> When you bring up the info screen (pressing enter on remote) what are the input frame rate and output frame rate?
> 
> If “rate match” is off, you may have 24.000 (or 25.000?) being converted to 23.976.


So I finally got around to testing this and turns out the input/output frame rate is the same, but yet I still see jutteriness in the motion on this particular show (Peaky Blinders streamed on Netflix).


----------



## MOberhardt

Sittler27 said:


> So I finally got around to testing this and turns out the input/output frame rate is the same, but yet I still see jutteriness in the motion on this particular show (Peaky Blinders streamed on Netflix).


Yeah you have an issue with some of those UK BBC series. Peaky Binders is native 50i... I'm not sure what streamer you are using but 50i is a PAL era abomination, and various devices handle it various ways. I'm not even sure the apple TV handles it native 50i, but a lot of others would try converting it to 60p so you may see it as 60 or 24 but the underlying source would be meddled with badly.


----------



## aguy

It’s a shame that players these days just don’t use the original frame rate for all material. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

MOberhardt said:


> 50i is a PAL era abomination


But 96 extra lines, NICAM and Teletext FTW


----------



## Drexler

Sittler27 said:


> So I finally got around to testing this and turns out the input/output frame rate is the same, but yet I still see jutteriness in the motion on this particular show (Peaky Blinders streamed on Netflix).


Have you tried the " match frame rate" function on the shield? That's needed for me for everything on Netflix that isnt at 60 hz.


----------



## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> It is probably a Shield issue. You have to do tricks with it to be able to get native frame rate output from Netflix.


.


----------



## Naiera

If I want to send 4K SDR BT.2020 to my projector, do I need a 18Ghz output, or can I make do with 9Ghz? I'm sure that 24Hz material should do fine, but I'd love to have the option to do 4K60 for games.


----------



## desray2k

Naiera said:


> If I want to send 4K SDR BT.2020 to my projector, do I need a 18Ghz output, or can I make do with 9Ghz? I'm sure that 24Hz material should do fine, but I'd love to have the option to do 4K60 for games.


I believe you'll need a 18Ghz card. For 4k60, a 9 GHz output is 4:2:0 at 8-bits, and a 18 GHz output is 4:2:2 at 12-bits. But if you are mostly a movie-guy where most films (except for a few) are shot at 4K24, you probably do not need 18Ghz. Besides Jim always mentioned about the excellent output dithering of the Radiance Pro that makes 18Ghz not really necessary. Do you use an Apple TV for streaming? If so, a 18Ghz input card is required for HDR.


----------



## Naiera

18Ghz input is a given. I'll definitely get one with one of those. My HDFury Vertex 2 has the four inputs, so one 18Ghz card is fine. With that I'll also be able to package Dolby Vision in a normal HDR10 signal that the Lumagen will accept.

The SDR conversion in the Panny 820 is fine, but I expect the Radiance Pro to be better. I need to scale everything to 2160p in any case, as the Sony 270ES treats 1080p and 2160p differently, with the latter being noticeably brighter. I'll use Calman 2017 to calibrate for 2160p SDR BT.2020 and I should be all set.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> If I want to send 4K SDR BT.2020 to my projector, do I need a 18Ghz output, or can I make do with 9Ghz? I'm sure that 24Hz material should do fine, but I'd love to have the option to do 4K60 for games.


The color-space is independent from the bit-depth. You can set CMS0 (for SDR content) and CMS1 (for HDR content) both to Colorspace = SDR2020 with either a 9 GHz or an 18 GHz output card.

Make sure the Projector correctly pays attention to the Rec 2020 flag (not all do), or you will need to manually select the projector's color Gamut as Rec 2020 Gamma = 2.4.


----------



## Naiera

I'm not sure I follow. No matter what I'm sending to the scaler, I want to output 2160p SDR BT.2020. Is that not something thing that can be done?


----------



## raullopez1234

Which is the best streaming device to use with a lumagen preferably one that has a an internet app.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> I'm not sure I follow. No matter what I'm sending to the scaler, I want to output 2160p SDR BT.2020. Is that not something thing that can be done?


Yes, as I state in my last post: You can set CMS0 (for SDR content) and CMS1 (for HDR content) both to Colorspace = SDR2020 with either a 9 GHz or an 18 GHz output card.

When you do this all content is output as SDR 2020 (Make sure 601/709 < -- > 2020 = Auto convert in the colorspace menus)

The output rate with default settings will be 2160p matching the source frame rate.


----------



## Naiera

Still not sure why different CMS’ have to be used.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Naiera said:


> Still not sure why different CMS’ have to be used.


You can just set one and use it for both. Jim is just suggesting how to alter the default settings.


----------



## Naiera

I apologise for my ignorance on this topic. I've never had to deal with anything but standard ol' 1080p until very recently, which has always just worked.

And I'm still unsure as to whether or not I can make do with a 9Ghz output card 😅 I had a Sony X700 or whatever UHD BD player for a few days and I still have a 12m QED performance HDMI cable that is one or two Gbps less than 18 and thus wasn't able to show the menus on the Sony player at all. It would show the movie if I was able to start it blindly. I'm not sure how my current player outputs menus; its own as well as UHD disc menus. It's still mounted along the ceiling, but I'm currently using the decade-old AudioQuest cable for 1080p from the scaler I have right now


----------



## Sittler27

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah you have an issue with some of those UK BBC series. Peaky Binders is native 50i... I'm not sure what streamer you are using but 50i is a PAL era abomination, and various devices handle it various ways. I'm not even sure the apple TV handles it native 50i, but a lot of others would try converting it to 60p so you may see it as 60 or 24 but the underlying source would be meddled with badly.





Drexler said:


> Have you tried the " match frame rate" function on the shield? That's needed for me for everything on Netflix that isnt at 60 hz.


I set my Shield to output 60hz (rather than the 24.x hz it was originally doing) and all jittering on that show ceased.
Nothing but smooth action now.


----------



## Clark Burk

Naiera said:


> I apologise for my ignorance on this topic. I've never had to deal with anything but standard ol' 1080p until very recently, which has always just worked.
> 
> And I'm still unsure as to whether or not I can make do with a 9Ghz output card 😅 I had a Sony X700 or whatever UHD BD player for a few days and I still have a 12m QED performance HDMI cable that is one or two Gbps less than 18 and thus wasn't able to show the menus on the Sony player at all. It would show the movie if I was able to start it blindly. I'm not sure how my current player outputs menus; its own as well as UHD disc menus. It's still mounted along the ceiling, but I'm currently using the decade-old AudioQuest cable for 1080p from the scaler I have right now


Honestly for what you're going to pay for the Lumagen I'd opt for the faster 18ghz output boards and not have to worry about it anymore. Yes you can always buy the 18ghz boards later but it will end up costing you more. YOMV


----------



## Naiera

Yeah. I’ll have to do that. Thank you.

The ball is in your court, Gordon


----------



## Naiera

Sittler27 said:


> I set my Shield to output 60hz (rather than the 24.x hz it was originally doing) and all jittering on that show ceased.
> Nothing but smooth action now.


If you’re watching 23.976 or 24.000Hz material then you are, by definition, getting judder.


----------



## c.kingsley

I couldn't get lip sync stable across 24hz sources so ended up switching to 60hz on everything, which works perfectly. I am using the Lumagen as the video switcher with audio out to receiver.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Honestly for what you're going to pay for the Lumagen I'd opt for the faster 18ghz output boards and not have to worry about it anymore. Yes you can always buy the 18ghz boards later but it will end up costing you more. YOMV


The 18 GHz output card will _never,_ even in the future, have a better image quality than the 9 GHz output. I do have to say this is "in my opinion," but it is based on how the Pro output dither increases the human perceived image quality beyond the actual bit depth. This is not going to change in the future for 4k60, and for 4k24 they always run at identical format (4:2:2) and bit depth (12-bit).

In my tests I could not find any 4k60 HDR scenes, or frames, where I could see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz 4k60 output from the Radiance Pro standing 2 to 3 feet away from our 13 foot wide Lumagen Demo Theater screen using a RS4500 projector. I recommend against evaluation that close since you might see something not visible at viewing distance. However, I stood that close to give myself a better chance at seeing differences. No way a difference could be visible at viewing distance. The 18 GHz output seems like it should be better, but in my real-world testing it is not.

On the other hand the 9 GHz output for a 4242 has several advantages:

- The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rate. With a good Fiber HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries, AVPro Store) and a projector with a good HDMI input (e.g. JVC RS3000, RS4500), the 18 GHz output works well. However, with a projector with a marginal HDMI input design (many others) the 9 GHz output will work better with fewer, or no, HDMI cable issues.

- For a 4242, the 9 GHz output card can have both audio and video on Output 1 to the audio processor. As I have commented a number of times before, there are audio processors for which he 720p "audio only" output rate of the Radiance Pro is "outside its sweet spot" for their design. They are required to support audio at 720p60, but they do not do a good job of it. For these, having audio and video at 9 GHz has often eliminated audio dropouts.

- With a 9 GHz output card, a 4242 can have just video on Output 2 to the the projector. For the 18 GHz output card Output 2 is always audio plus video, when Output 1 is outputting audio. We sometimes see projectors have issues when sent both audio and video, but that when send just video do not have issues.

This is why I recommend to everyone who will listen to buy the 4242++ model, or the 4446++ if more inputs/outputs are needed. With the 4242++ all four inputs are 18 GHz which are needed for HDR from most sources. However, the outputs are 9 GHz, and so have the advantages for system reliability listed above.

When I was using a 4XXX unit in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I choose the 4446++. It has both a 9 GHz and a 18 GHz output. I constantly switched back and forth between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards so I could confirm both were robust with a good cable (Tributaries) and a good projector (JVC RS4500). So while an 18 GHz output is a reasonable choice when paired with a projector with a good HDMI input design, it is not necessary for best image quality and I always recommend the 9 GHz output card of the Radiance Pro 4242++. If you are buying a 444X series then I recommend the "+" or "++" option to have both a 9 GHz and an 18 GHz output to choose from.

I have switched to a Radiance Pro 5348 for its (IMO) better sound, and slight improvement in video quality (IMO) with our RS4500. The outputs are from 18 GHz chips, but sent through HDMI buffers which do not have output EQ. This helps with marginal projector inputs when driven at 18 GHz.


----------



## asharma

jrp said:


> The 18 GHz output card will _never,_ even in the future, have a better image quality than the 9 GHz output. I do have to say this is "in my opinion," but it is based on how the Pro output dither increases the human perceived image quality beyond the actual bit depth. This is not going to change in the future for 4k60, and for 4k24 they always run at identical format (4:2:2) and bit depth (12-bit).
> 
> In my tests I could not find any 4k60 HDR scenes, or frames, where I could see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz 4k60 output from the Radiance Pro standing 2 to 3 feet away from our 13 foot wide Lumagen Demo Theater screen using a RS4500 projector. I recommend against evaluation that close since you might see something not visible at viewing distance. However, I stood that close to give myself a better chance at seeing differences. No way a difference could be visible at viewing distance. The 18 GHz output seems like it should be better, but in my real-world testing it is not.
> 
> On the other hand the 9 GHz output for a 4242 has several advantages:
> 
> - The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rate. With a good Fiber HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries, AVPro Store) and a projector with a good HDMI input (e.g. JVC RS3000, RS4500), the 18 GHz output works well. However, with a projector with a marginal HDMI input design (many others) the 9 GHz output will work better with fewer, or no, HDMI cable issues.
> 
> - For a 4242, the 9 GHz output card can have both audio and video on Output 1 to the audio processor. As I have commented a number of times before, there are audio processors for which he 720p "audio only" output rate of the Radiance Pro is "outside its sweet spot" for their design. They are required to support audio at 720p60, but they do not do a good job of it. For these, having audio and video at 9 GHz has often eliminated audio dropouts.
> 
> - With a 9 GHz output card, a 4242 can have just video on Output 2 to the the projector. For the 18 GHz output card Output 2 is always audio plus video, when Output 1 is outputting audio. We sometimes see projectors have issues when sent both audio and video, but that when send just video do not have issues.
> 
> This is why I recommend to everyone who will listen to buy the 4242++ model, or the 4446++ if more inputs/outputs are needed. With the 4242++ all four inputs are 18 GHz which are needed for HDR from most sources. However, the outputs are 9 GHz, and so have the advantages for system reliability listed above.
> 
> When I was using a 4XXX unit in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I choose the 4446++. It has both a 9 GHz and a 18 GHz output. I constantly switched back and forth between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards so I could confirm both were robust with a good cable (Tributaries) and a good projector (JVC RS4500). So while an 18 GHz output is a reasonable choice when paired with a projector with a good HDMI input design, it is not necessary for best image quality and I always recommend the 9 GHz output card of the Radiance Pro 4242++. If you are buying a 444X series then I recommend the "+" or "++" option to have both a 9 GHz and an 18 GHz output to choose from.
> 
> I have switched to a Radiance Pro 5348 for its (IMO) better sound, and slight improvement in video quality (IMO) with our RS4500. The outputs are from 18 GHz chips, but sent through HDMI buffers which do not have output EQ. This helps with marginal projector inputs when driven at 18 GHz.


Thanks for clarifying Jim…some of these recent questions are because I have my 4240 for sale, as I’m moving to my OLED…My 4240 has a 9Ghz out…In my experience playing Gemini Man and Billy Lynn’s Halftime walk, both at 4K60, it looked phenomenal with zero issues…When I bought it I thought if I needed to I would upgrade the output but never had to as 4K60 was perfect for me….thanks for your phenomenal support along the way…it doesn’t get any better…👍🏽


----------



## audioguy

asharma said:


> Thanks for clarifying Jim…some of these recent questions are because I have my 4240 for sale, as I’m moving to my OLED…My 4240 has a 9Ghz out…In my experience playing Gemini Man and Billy Lynn’s Halftime walk, both at 4K60, it looked phenomenal with zero issues…When I bought it I thought if I needed to I would upgrade the output but never had to as 4K60 was perfect for me….thanks for your phenomenal support along the way…it doesn’t get any better…👍🏽


So you are getting rid of your current NX9, Panamoprh and Lumagen moving to a flat panel/OLED? How large?


----------



## asharma

audioguy said:


> So you are getting rid of your current NX9, Panamoprh and Lumagen moving to a flat panel/OLED? How large?


83”…My room is only 12x17 and I sit 8 ft away from it in a velvet batcave…Cannot see any black bars with scope content…Just looks like a floating illuminated screen…

With that being said, size does matter and when paired with flagship electronics like the Lumagen and an NX-9, it’s hard to beat…So if I gave my JVC setup a 10/10 I would give my OLED setup an 8/10, which for me right now is “good enough”…


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> The 18 GHz output card will _never,_ even in the future, have a better image quality than the 9 GHz output. I do have to say this is "in my opinion," but it is based on how the Pro output dither increases the human perceived image quality beyond the actual bit depth. This is not going to change in the future for 4k60, and for 4k24 they always run at identical format (4:2:2) and bit depth (12-bit).
> 
> In my tests I could not find any 4k60 HDR scenes, or frames, where I could see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz 4k60 output from the Radiance Pro standing 2 to 3 feet away from our 13 foot wide Lumagen Demo Theater screen using a RS4500 projector. I recommend against evaluation that close since you might see something not visible at viewing distance. However, I stood that close to give myself a better chance at seeing differences. No way a difference could be visible at viewing distance. The 18 GHz output seems like it should be better, but in my real-world testing it is not.
> 
> On the other hand the 9 GHz output for a 4242 has several advantages:
> 
> - The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rate. With a good Fiber HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries, AVPro Store) and a projector with a good HDMI input (e.g. JVC RS3000, RS4500), the 18 GHz output works well. However, with a projector with a marginal HDMI input design (many others) the 9 GHz output will work better with fewer, or no, HDMI cable issues.
> 
> - For a 4242, the 9 GHz output card can have both audio and video on Output 1 to the audio processor. As I have commented a number of times before, there are audio processors for which he 720p "audio only" output rate of the Radiance Pro is "outside its sweet spot" for their design. They are required to support audio at 720p60, but they do not do a good job of it. For these, having audio and video at 9 GHz has often eliminated audio dropouts.
> 
> - With a 9 GHz output card, a 4242 can have just video on Output 2 to the the projector. For the 18 GHz output card Output 2 is always audio plus video, when Output 1 is outputting audio. We sometimes see projectors have issues when sent both audio and video, but that when send just video do not have issues.
> 
> This is why I recommend to everyone who will listen to buy the 4242++ model, or the 4446++ if more inputs/outputs are needed. With the 4242++ all four inputs are 18 GHz which are needed for HDR from most sources. However, the outputs are 9 GHz, and so have the advantages for system reliability listed above.
> 
> When I was using a 4XXX unit in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I choose the 4446++. It has both a 9 GHz and a 18 GHz output. I constantly switched back and forth between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards so I could confirm both were robust with a good cable (Tributaries) and a good projector (JVC RS4500). So while an 18 GHz output is a reasonable choice when paired with a projector with a good HDMI input design, it is not necessary for best image quality and I always recommend the 9 GHz output card of the Radiance Pro 4242++. If you are buying a 444X series then I recommend the "+" or "++" option to have both a 9 GHz and an 18 GHz output to choose from.
> 
> I have switched to a Radiance Pro 5348 for its (IMO) better sound, and slight improvement in video quality (IMO) with our RS4500. The outputs are from 18 GHz chips, but sent through HDMI buffers which do not have output EQ. This helps with marginal projector inputs when driven at 18 GHz.


Interesting, and thanks for the Lumagen lesson. Does this still hold true for the new alpha firmware with the 12 bit pipeline.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> The 18 GHz output card will _never,_ even in the future, have a better image quality than the 9 GHz output. I do have to say this is "in my opinion," but it is based on how the Pro output dither increases the human perceived image quality beyond the actual bit depth. This is not going to change in the future for 4k60, and for 4k24 they always run at identical format (4:2:2) and bit depth (12-bit).
> 
> In my tests I could not find any 4k60 HDR scenes, or frames, where I could see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz 4k60 output from the Radiance Pro standing 2 to 3 feet away from our 13 foot wide Lumagen Demo Theater screen using a RS4500 projector. I recommend against evaluation that close since you might see something not visible at viewing distance. However, I stood that close to give myself a better chance at seeing differences. No way a difference could be visible at viewing distance. The 18 GHz output seems like it should be better, but in my real-world testing it is not.
> 
> On the other hand the 9 GHz output for a 4242 has several advantages:
> 
> - The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rate. With a good Fiber HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries, AVPro Store) and a projector with a good HDMI input (e.g. JVC RS3000, RS4500), the 18 GHz output works well. However, with a projector with a marginal HDMI input design (many others) the 9 GHz output will work better with fewer, or no, HDMI cable issues.
> 
> - For a 4242, the 9 GHz output card can have both audio and video on Output 1 to the audio processor. As I have commented a number of times before, there are audio processors for which he 720p "audio only" output rate of the Radiance Pro is "outside its sweet spot" for their design. They are required to support audio at 720p60, but they do not do a good job of it. For these, having audio and video at 9 GHz has often eliminated audio dropouts.
> 
> - With a 9 GHz output card, a 4242 can have just video on Output 2 to the the projector. For the 18 GHz output card Output 2 is always audio plus video, when Output 1 is outputting audio. We sometimes see projectors have issues when sent both audio and video, but that when send just video do not have issues.
> 
> This is why I recommend to everyone who will listen to buy the 4242++ model, or the 4446++ if more inputs/outputs are needed. With the 4242++ all four inputs are 18 GHz which are needed for HDR from most sources. However, the outputs are 9 GHz, and so have the advantages for system reliability listed above.
> 
> When I was using a 4XXX unit in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I choose the 4446++. It has both a 9 GHz and a 18 GHz output. I constantly switched back and forth between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards so I could confirm both were robust with a good cable (Tributaries) and a good projector (JVC RS4500). So while an 18 GHz output is a reasonable choice when paired with a projector with a good HDMI input design, it is not necessary for best image quality and I always recommend the 9 GHz output card of the Radiance Pro 4242++. If you are buying a 444X series then I recommend the "+" or "++" option to have both a 9 GHz and an 18 GHz output to choose from.
> 
> I have switched to a Radiance Pro 5348 for its (IMO) better sound, and slight improvement in video quality (IMO) with our RS4500. The outputs are from 18 GHz chips, but sent through HDMI buffers which do not have output EQ. This helps with marginal projector inputs when driven at 18 GHz.


Do you think a difference might be seen between 18G 4k60-422 and 9G 4k60-420 outputs when using gaming consoles or PCs?


----------



## Chicagobear1

jrp said:


> The 18 GHz output card will _never,_ even in the future, have a better image quality than the 9 GHz output. I do have to say this is "in my opinion," but it is based on how the Pro output dither increases the human perceived image quality beyond the actual bit depth. This is not going to change in the future for 4k60, and for 4k24 they always run at identical format (4:2:2) and bit depth (12-bit).
> 
> In my tests I could not find any 4k60 HDR scenes, or frames, where I could see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz 4k60 output from the Radiance Pro standing 2 to 3 feet away from our 13 foot wide Lumagen Demo Theater screen using a RS4500 projector. I recommend against evaluation that close since you might see something not visible at viewing distance. However, I stood that close to give myself a better chance at seeing differences. No way a difference could be visible at viewing distance. The 18 GHz output seems like it should be better, but in my real-world testing it is not.
> 
> On the other hand the 9 GHz output for a 4242 has several advantages:
> 
> - The 9 GHz output has slower output edge rate. With a good Fiber HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries, AVPro Store) and a projector with a good HDMI input (e.g. JVC RS3000, RS4500), the 18 GHz output works well. However, with a projector with a marginal HDMI input design (many others) the 9 GHz output will work better with fewer, or no, HDMI cable issues.
> 
> - For a 4242, the 9 GHz output card can have both audio and video on Output 1 to the audio processor. As I have commented a number of times before, there are audio processors for which he 720p "audio only" output rate of the Radiance Pro is "outside its sweet spot" for their design. They are required to support audio at 720p60, but they do not do a good job of it. For these, having audio and video at 9 GHz has often eliminated audio dropouts.
> 
> - With a 9 GHz output card, a 4242 can have just video on Output 2 to the the projector. For the 18 GHz output card Output 2 is always audio plus video, when Output 1 is outputting audio. We sometimes see projectors have issues when sent both audio and video, but that when send just video do not have issues.
> 
> This is why I recommend to everyone who will listen to buy the 4242++ model, or the 4446++ if more inputs/outputs are needed. With the 4242++ all four inputs are 18 GHz which are needed for HDR from most sources. However, the outputs are 9 GHz, and so have the advantages for system reliability listed above.
> 
> When I was using a 4XXX unit in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I choose the 4446++. It has both a 9 GHz and a 18 GHz output. I constantly switched back and forth between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards so I could confirm both were robust with a good cable (Tributaries) and a good projector (JVC RS4500). So while an 18 GHz output is a reasonable choice when paired with a projector with a good HDMI input design, it is not necessary for best image quality and I always recommend the 9 GHz output card of the Radiance Pro 4242++. If you are buying a 444X series then I recommend the "+" or "++" option to have both a 9 GHz and an 18 GHz output to choose from.
> 
> I have switched to a Radiance Pro 5348 for its (IMO) better sound, and slight improvement in video quality (IMO) with our RS4500. The outputs are from 18 GHz chips, but sent through HDMI buffers which do not have output EQ. This helps with marginal projector inputs when driven at 18 GHz.


Jim have you tested the 9ghz & 18ghz cards with gaming. I have Xbox & playstation pro with 18ghz input & output. My friend has same unit with 9ghz in and out same console's . We tested both units with gaming with our viewing the 18ghz looked a tad better with the 18ghz card than the 9ghz. The image looked a tad sharper colour depth looked better with the 18ghz card with our findings. The image was identical looking 4k 24Hz DTM with both units.


----------



## desray2k

Naiera said:


> I apologise for my ignorance on this topic. I've never had to deal with anything but standard ol' 1080p until very recently, which has always just worked.
> 
> And I'm still unsure as to whether or not I can make do with a 9Ghz output card 😅 I had a Sony X700 or whatever UHD BD player for a few days and I still have a 12m QED performance HDMI cable that is one or two Gbps less than 18 and thus wasn't able to show the menus on the Sony player at all. It would show the movie if I was able to start it blindly. I'm not sure how my current player outputs menus; its own as well as UHD disc menus. It's still mounted along the ceiling, but I'm currently using the decade-old AudioQuest cable for 1080p from the scaler I have right now


U mentioned briefly about the QED hdmi cable, is that full 18gbps or HDMI 1.4b at 10.2gbps? The latter can do up to 4K30. Some players or streaming device output 4K60 by default for their menu which may cause problem for you if your hdmi cable is not using HDMI 2.0b specs. For Sony player, you probably should take a look at the output bit depth and the colorspace the Sony send out. Restrict to YbrCr 4:2:0 10bit and see if you can see the player menu.


----------



## desray2k

Chicagobear1 said:


> The image looked a tad sharper colour depth looked better with the 18ghz card with our findings. The image was identical looking 4k 24Hz DTM with both units.


I guess the extra 2-bits on the 18Ghz card helped with color gradation.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Interesting, and thanks for the Lumagen lesson. Does this still hold true for the new alpha firmware with the 12 bit pipeline.


Yes.

As I said in my post there will never IMO be a visible difference between the 9 GHz and 18 GHz output.


----------



## Naiera

desray2k said:


> U mentioned briefly about the QED hdmi cable, is that full 18gbps or HDMI 1.4b at 10.2gbps? The latter can do up to 4K30. Some players or streaming device output 4K60 by default for their menu which may cause problem for you if your hdmi cable is not using HDMI 2.0b specs. For Sony player, you probably should take a look at the output bit depth and the colorspace the Sony send out. Restrict to YbrCr 4:2:0 10bit and see if you can see the player menu.


It's like 16.2 Gbps or something. Said on the box it was tested somewhere fancy. I have a new fiber optic one on the way that I plan to use instead, and I'll get a Radiance Pro with 18Ghz output anyway.

The Sony player is long gone and if I can't see the menu I can't really do much about the settings... Although I did try moving it close to the projector, and there were no useful settings. Anyway, I have what it says in my signature now, and hopefully soon a Radiance Pro and a 48Gbps 15m HDMI cable.


----------



## alv

"hopefully soon a Radiance Pro and a 48Gbps 15m HDMI cable."

See previous posts by Jim Peterson. I believe ACTIVE 48GHz cables can be problematic since the edge rate is too sharp. Someone else may remember better.


----------



## Naiera

Thank you. Gordon just told me about this via email. I've ordered a 40ft 18Gbps Ruipro. They recommend those in the Lumagen Radiance Pro manual.


----------



## alv

That is what I have and works fine.


----------



## Naiera

Nice


----------



## Hoi

Does anyone know what might be causing this blue stripe on the right side of the screen? I just noticed this over the weekend on native 2.35 AR content, 2.35 AR set on the Lumagen, 2.39 AR scope screen with DCR lens, and JVC NX7. If I set the Lumagen to 2.40, it's not there for 2.35 content. If the content is anything other than 2.35 and I set the Lumagen to 2.35, it's also not there.


----------



## Kris Deering

Hoi said:


> Does anyone know what might be causing this blue stripe on the right side of the screen? I just noticed this over the weekend on native 2.35 AR content, 2.35 AR set on the Lumagen, 2.39 AR scope screen with DCR lens, and JVC NX7. If I set the Lumagen to 2.40, it's not there for 2.35 content. If the content is anything other than 2.35 and I set the Lumagen to 2.35, it's also not there.
> 
> View attachment 3281432


I'd just email Lumagen support with the picture and see what they say.


----------



## Hoi

Kris Deering said:


> I'd just email Lumagen support with the picture and see what they say.


 Will do. Hopefully it is not the JVC vertical stripe thing that I've read about.


----------



## Mark Burton

Hoi said:


> Will do. Hopefully it is not the JVC vertical stripe thing that I've read about.


Try removing the lumagen to check


----------



## MDesigns

Hoi said:


> Will do. Hopefully it is not the JVC vertical stripe thing that I've read about.


It is not. JVC vertical stripes don't go away by changing settings/aspect in the Lumagen.


----------



## jrp

Hoi said:


> Does anyone know what might be causing this blue stripe on the right side of the screen? I just noticed this over the weekend on native 2.35 AR content, 2.35 AR set on the Lumagen, 2.39 AR scope screen with DCR lens, and JVC NX7. If I set the Lumagen to 2.40, it's not there for 2.35 content. If the content is anything other than 2.35 and I set the Lumagen to 2.35, it's also not there.


With the DCR lens I expect you have the Pro set to output 4096 wide. You might try with 3840 wide (MENU 0873, and get back to your Saved setting by going to Standby). See if this is specific to 4096 wide output.

Also you do not mention which firmware release you are on. Very important to know this. To my knowledge, we have not had such an issue, and it might not be there with a different release.

Could be something in the projector. Hard to tell since likely you do not have any other device that will output the same 4096x2160 mode other than the Pro. So any test without the Radiance Pro is an apples to oranges comparison and not very helpful.

You might try "Single Output Aspect" at 2.35, and then 2.40, to see if the issues remain with single output aspect mode.

You can also try a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999, and get back to your Saved setting by going to Standby). Then set outptu aspect to 2.40, and use MENU 0873 and then MENU 0877 to set output to 4096x2160. See if the issue continues. If not than could be a corrupt configuration.

There are quite a few people with NX7's, but I am not sue how many have the Pro output set to 4096x2160.

====

You can email the lumagen.com support email and we can discuss further.


----------



## Hoi

jrp said:


> With the DCR lens I expect you have the Pro set to output 4096 wide. You might try with 3840 wide (MENU 0873, and get back to your Saved setting by going to Standby). See if this is specific to 4096 wide output.
> 
> Also you do not mention which firmware release you are on. Very important to know this. To my knowledge, we have not had such an issue, and it might not be there with a different release.
> 
> Could be something in the projector. Hard to tell since likely you do not have any other device that will output the same 4096x2160 mode other than the Pro. So any test without the Radiance Pro is an apples to oranges comparison and not very helpful.
> 
> You might try "Single Output Aspect" at 2.35, and then 2.40, to see if the issues remain with single output aspect mode.
> 
> You can also try a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999, and get back to your Saved setting by going to Standby). Then set outptu aspect to 2.40, and use MENU 0873 and then MENU 0877 to set output to 4096x2160. See if the issue continues. If not than could be a corrupt configuration.
> 
> There are quite a few people with NX7's, but I am not sue how many have the Pro output set to 4096x2160.
> 
> ====
> 
> You can email the lumagen.com support email and we can discuss further.


I will test some more and report back to support.


----------



## eaglebei

Hoi said:


> I will test some more and report back to support.





Hoi said:


> Does anyone know what might be causing this blue stripe on the right side of the screen? I just noticed this over the weekend on native 2.35 AR content, 2.35 AR set on the Lumagen, 2.39 AR scope screen with DCR lens, and JVC NX7. If I set the Lumagen to 2.40, it's not there for 2.35 content. If the content is anything other than 2.35 and I set the Lumagen to 2.35, it's also not there.
> 
> View attachment 3281432


I has NZ9 and DCR, I setup 4096X2160 output and set aspect to17:9 on Lumagen. when I play 2.40 movie, I will use NZ9 preset to change it(anamorphic change to C, 16:9 use D instead). Never met your problem, hope it can help.
Bei


----------



## Kris Deering

eaglebei said:


> I has NZ9 and DCR, I setup 4096X2160 output and set aspect to17:9 on Lumagen. when I play 2.40 movie, I will use NZ9 preset to change it(anamorphic change to C, 16:9 use D instead). Never met your problem, hope it can help.
> Bei


That is definitely NOT the way I would setup the Lumagen/JVC to work with a lens.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Deleted


----------



## jrp

I just sent the Alpha 7 release out to the Pipeline Enhancement Alpha testers.

This is a bug fix release. Alpha 6 fixed a vertical shift issue, but the fix broke interlaced content. Alpha 7 corrects the interlaced source issue of Alpha 6, and fixes a couple other minor issues Patrick found.

Again I have my fingers crossed this release becomes the Beta 1 release.


----------



## jrp

Alpha Testers:

To help us decide if the Alpha 7 release can become the Beta 1 release, please email a thumbs up or thumbs down for the Alpha 7 release to the email I mention in my email I sent with the link to Alpha 7 once you have had some time testing it. A thumbs up needs no explanation. If you vote thumbs down, please explain why (noise in image, not locking on signal, feature not working, etc.).

If there are no significant issues, I hope to release Alpha 7 as Beta 1 on our website early next week.


----------



## Bill DePalma

After testing the latest Alpha I am so impressed with the upscaling of DVD content that I want to get serious about bringing the contrast (black level) in line with HD. My question is should I apply changes in the Input or Output menu. As a test I took an unused CMS slot and made the changes I wanted and saved this to a memory which I will use for DVD playback. Looks great but am I doing this properly?


----------



## jrp

Bill DePalma said:


> After testing the latest Alpha I am so impressed with the upscaling of DVD content that I want to get serious about bringing the contrast (black level) in line with HD. My question is should I apply changes in the Input or Output menu. As a test I took an unused CMS slot and made the changes I wanted and saved this to a memory which I will use for DVD playback. Looks great but am I doing this properly?


Glad the Alpha 7 is working so well for you. All "thumbs up" so far. Fingers still crossed this becomes the Beta 1.

==== 

If HD and UHD black level is correct, you should make DVD black level changes in the Input Menu Black level. 

If you want to change Black for all 480 content (or 576 content), you can just change the Black level in the Input Menu. However, if you want Black to be different for only the DVD source you would need to point that input to a different input memory for 480 content using the Input Menu. This is in the manual but happy to go into more detail if you can't figure it out. Also I posted on this in more detail a few days ago.


----------



## jrp

Update procedure:

In addition to the normal update procedure I am now recommending that other equipment be off during Radiance Pro updates. There have been some issues where I believe the Radiance Pro update, which can have the HDMI I/O doing unexpected things affecting surrounding equipment, has left the projector and/or audio processing HDMI input chips in a funk. Turning the system off, and then doing the Pro update is a good idea IMO.

I am now also recommending that after each update the Radiance Pro be removed from wall power and then reconnected. This makes certain the Radiance Pro microprocessor can do a clean boot. We have had a couple cases lately of systems having an issue after an update that goes away after wall power is removed and restored to the Radiance Pro.

There have been cases of HDMI cables getting bumped during the update process and an HDMI connection being compromised. This is more common than one might think even for people who swore they could not have bumped an HDMI cable. So, I now recommend pressing in each end of every HDMI cable while wiggling the plug left and right to make sure the plug is seated properly after each update. I do this for all connections on the back of our Radiance Pro in the Lumagen Demo Theater after each update, and sometimes all HDMI connections.

These steps are not required, but I do recommend doing the them for each update. If you do have a weird behavior after an update remove wall power from all equipment, restore power and turn the system on as you normally would. Press in a wiggle the HDMI plugs as noted above. Then if the weirdness persists, it might be an issue with your unit and the update you just did.


----------



## Craig Peer

I'm getting excited for this update to finally be ready. It's been a while since the last update.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Update procedure:
> 
> In addition to the normal update procedure I am now recommending that other equipment be off during Radiance Pro updates. There have been some issues where I believe the Radiance Pro update, which can have the HDMI I/O doing unexpected things affecting surrounding equipment, has left the projector and/or audio processing HDMI input chips in a funk. Turning the system off, and then doing the Pro update is a good idea IMO.
> 
> I am now also recommending that after each update the Radiance Pro be removed from wall power and then reconnected. This makes certain the Radiance Pro microprocessor can do a clean boot. We have had a couple cases lately of systems having an issue after an update that goes away after wall power is removed and restored to the Radiance Pro.
> 
> There have been cases of HDMI cables getting bumped during the update process and an HDMI connection being compromised. This is more common than one might think even for people who swore they could not have bumped an HDMI cable. So, I now recommend pressing in each end of every HDMI cable while wiggling the plug left and right to make sure the plug is seated properly after each update. I do this for all connections on the back of our Radiance Pro in the Lumagen Demo Theater after each update, and sometimes all HDMI connections.
> 
> These steps are not required, but I do recommend doing the them for each update. If you do have a weird behavior after an update remove wall power from all equipment, restore power and turn the system on as you normally would. Press in a wiggle the HDMI plugs as noted above. Then if the weirdness persists, it might be an issue with your unit and the update you just did.


Never really had any update issues over the years, but could the update process be modified to automate this? I’m no expert lol, but the process could turn off HDMI ports, reboot, etc. Make it idiot proof! 😃


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Never really had any update issues over the years, but could the update process be modified to automate this? I’m no expert lol, but the process could turn off HDMI ports, reboot, etc. Make it idiot proof! 😃


Not practical to even try to make all this automatic for a normal update. However, I did not think to mention the benefit of doing Boot Mode Updates in my previous post. Boot Mode Updates simplify things dealing with other equipment during the update. Really normal updates do not have any issues with other equipment in most cases and my comments were along the lines of best practice and making people aware of things that can go wrong during an update. 

If you do a Boot Mode Update (same as normal update except remove and restore Radiance Pro power right before clicking Start), the HDMI chips are held in reset and so cannot cause other devices to get confused.

For a Boot Mode update you are required to pull and restore Radiance Pro power after the update completes. So no change there.

Making sure you do not bump any HDMI connections such that they come part way out has always been required of course. I find that the update is a good reminder for me to make sure HDMI cables are seated properly. Not a requirement for you to do unless you notice an issue.

So, always doing a Boot Mode Update may be your best option. Of course if a normal update works for you without doing the suggestions in my previous post, then you can choose to do normal updates skipping those suggestions.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Any thoughts of configuring a raspberry pi connected via usb and automating the updates?


----------



## bjorg

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Any thoughts of configuring a raspberry pi connected via usb and automating the updates?


They should put a RaspberryPi into the unit. It could run a beautiful web UI then for configuring the device as well as provide single-click firmware updates. In addition, it could also provide network control of the device (instead of USB/RS232 as is currently the case).

I created a proof-of-concept version that I used for a while, but since then, I’ve added a HTPC running Windows, which means I can do updates and control very easily from there instead. For a while, I looked at creating a Telnet-to-Serial bridge for the RadiancePro, but the wire protocol is not fun to work with and there are only so many hours in the day!


----------



## A7mad78

jrp said:


> Not practical to even try to make all this automatic for a normal update. However, I did not think to mention the benefit of doing Boot Mode Updates in my previous post. Boot Mode Updates simplify things dealing with other equipment during the update. Really normal updates do not have any issues with other equipment in most cases and my comments were along the lines of best practice and making people aware of things that can go wrong during an update.
> 
> If you do a Boot Mode Update (same as normal update except remove and restore Radiance Pro power right before clicking Start), the HDMI chips are held in reset and so cannot cause other devices to get confused.
> 
> For a Boot Mode update you are required to pull and restore Radiance Pro power after the update completes. So no change there.
> 
> Making sure you do not bump any HDMI connections such that they come part way out has always been required of course. I find that the update is a good reminder for me to make sure HDMI cables are seated properly. Not a requirement for you to do unless you notice an issue.
> 
> So, always doing a Boot Mode Update may be your best option. Of course if a normal update works for you without doing the suggestions in my previous post, then you can choose to do normal updates skipping those suggestions.


I use to Just Boot update and remove the main hdmi out and do it before running my system and agree it seem safe and great way to update 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alv

Jim,

Are you saying a boot mode update instead of the one pulling cables gets to the same place? That is easier for me.

Thanks, as always, for the good support.


----------



## Naiera

Yay!










Too bad my calibration buddy's in Munich for that high-end thing


----------



## Mikesterz

Sittler27 said:


> I set my Shield to output 60hz (rather than the 24.x hz it was originally doing) and all jittering on that show ceased.
> Nothing but smooth action now.


The only way I was able to remove judder is by matching the source frame rate and set the lumagen to match it going out. The issue is each streaming app could only natively match the frame rate to certain streaming players, and not only the frame rate, but Atmos and 4k hdr as well. The streaming device having a frame rate match feature doesn’t help since the apps may not support it. 

So now I have three streaming devices. Shield for Plex/Kodi (those are the only apps that support frame rate match, 4k HDR and Atmos on the Shield), Roku Ultra 4k for YouTube and Showtime, and Apple 4k TV for pretty much everything else.

This was the only way I could get 4k HDR, Atmos, and frame rate match (reducing judder) on all content that supports those features.


----------



## Erod

For those with RPs with 18gHz capability, if you change it to 9gHz as suggested, do you get a gray screen flash on streamers when you switch to another app or hit play for a movie. Just flashes gray, then goes to the movie with no issues. Just wondering if that's typical.


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> For those with RPs with 18gHz capability, if you change it to 9gHz as suggested, do you get a gray screen flash on streamers when you switch to another app or hit play for a movie. Just flashes gray, then goes to the movie with no issues. Just wondering if that's typical.


I get a gray screen flash only when switching to an input I've set to output at 9G (in my example, if I turn on my Oppo 203 and my LRP is set to 18G output, the default menu screen can cause blanking like it's trying to lock on to the signal for some reason, but I can boot to 9G output then switch over to 18G output with no problems (even though 18G output isn't needed)).

Let me know what streaming box you're using (Roku?) and what you have it set to (4k60 HDR?) and I'll try this weekend.


----------



## Erod

DigitalAV said:


> I get a gray screen flash only when switching to an input I've set to output at 9G (in my example, if I turn on my Oppo 203 and my LRP is set to 18G output, the default menu screen can cause blanking like it's trying to lock on to the signal for some reason, but I can boot to 9G output then switch over to 18G output with no problems (even though 18G output isn't needed)).
> 
> Let me know what streaming box you're using (Roku?) and what you have it set to (4k60 HDR?) and I'll try this weekend.


Yes, Roku, and I have the lumagen set to rate match (Menu 0872) for all inputs I believe. It happens when I start a movie, change menus, etc, within the Roku. The actual playing of anything is fine though, so if it limits jitter and whatnot, probably worth it.

How do I set the output for each input separately? I can see 9G being better for DirecTV and Roku perhaps, and leaving the Panny 820 player at 18G.


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> Jim,
> 
> Are you saying a boot mode update instead of the one pulling cables gets to the same place? That is easier for me.
> 
> Thanks, as always, for the good support.


Yes, that will work with out pulling any HDMI cables.


----------



## jimmyp1974

Hi everyone I would like to ask you for a help. I have found a Lumagen 4242 for a good price. My current set is JVC rs620 projector + htpc with nvidia 3070 and Madvr. Will the Lumagen perform better than the htpc, I don’t do streaming just files. Thank you!


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> They should put a RaspberryPi into the unit. It could run a beautiful web UI then for configuring the device as well as provide single-click firmware updates. In addition, it could also provide network control of the device (instead of USB/RS232 as is currently the case).
> 
> I created a proof-of-concept version that I used for a while, but since then, I’ve added a HTPC running Windows, which means I can do updates and control very easily from there instead. For a while, I looked at creating a Telnet-to-Serial bridge for the Radiance Pro, but the wire protocol is not fun to work with and there are only so many hours in the day!


Here is more information than I intended to provide on this topic:

We tried to do this internally with a Raspberry Pi compute 4 module for the 5XXX (only) but to no avail. Supply-side issues killed it and this is not even considering the software work involved. I placed an initial order to my vendor for 100 Raspberry Pi Compute 4 modules. Eight months later 15 showed up, with no word on when I might get more, and that was just the initial order. I returned the 15 and punted on doing this. This was the third option we tried. All have now failed to make the cut.

Certainly if someone wants to do an external box to control and do updates with a Raspberry Pie, or a miniPC, on there own we would want to support this if we can. One engineer has shown interest in doing an external IP interface, but not sure if it will go anywhere. Another tried and was having issues loading the software update sometimes.

Some dealers use a cheap PC permanently connected the Radiance Pro, and then remote into the PC to do updates. This works already. Given how cheap PCs can be, I think this might be a good option to consider. I just ordered a mini PC from Amazon for $134 and a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse to go with. Not sure how this will go for me but a cheap way to have a dedicated PC for updating. Here is the link to the one I bought:









Amazon.com: Beelink T4 Pro Mini PC,Intel Processor N3350 Mini Computer,4G RAM+64GB eMMC, 2.4G/5.8G Dual WiFi, Gigabit Ethernet,HDMI&DP Ports Support Dual Display,Auto Power On : Electronics


Amazon.com: Beelink T4 Pro Mini PC,Intel Processor N3350 Mini Computer,4G RAM+64GB eMMC, 2.4G/5.8G Dual WiFi, Gigabit Ethernet,HDMI&DP Ports Support Dual Display,Auto Power On : Electronics



smile.amazon.com





==== 

I am working on something else at the moment. So the internal IP interface for the 5XXX is on hold. Sorry, not the news people want to hear. I should note that we hope to revisit the IP interface later. However, no idea when this might be.


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> Yes, Roku, and I have the lumagen set to rate match (Menu 0872) for all inputs I believe. It happens when I start a movie, change menus, etc, within the Roku. The actual playing of anything is fine though, so if it limits jitter and whatnot, probably worth it.
> 
> How do I set the output for each input separately? I can see 9G being better for DirecTV and Roku perhaps, and leaving the Panny 820 player at 18G.


Here's how I do it:

First, setup a Style that's 9G:

Menu > Output Styles > Style2 (for example) > HDMI Format > Type > Auto-9Ghz

Then set that Style for your input:

Menu > Output > Output Setup

Tested with my Roku Premiere+ indeed I get gray screen flashes when starting and stopping a video and when set to 4k 60Hz HDR. In no way shape or form affects the video itself same as you, just an observation.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> Some dealers use a cheap PC permanently connected the Radiance Pro, and then remote into the PC to do updates. This works already. Given how cheap PCs can be, I think this might be a good option to consider. I just ordered a mini PC from Amazon for $134 and a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse to go with. Not sure how this will go for me but a cheap way to have a dedicated PC for updating. Here is the link to the one I bought:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Beelink T4 Pro Mini PC,Intel Processor N3350 Mini Computer,4G RAM+64GB eMMC, 2.4G/5.8G Dual WiFi, Gigabit Ethernet,HDMI&DP Ports Support Dual Display,Auto Power On : Electronics
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Beelink T4 Pro Mini PC,Intel Processor N3350 Mini Computer,4G RAM+64GB eMMC, 2.4G/5.8G Dual WiFi, Gigabit Ethernet,HDMI&DP Ports Support Dual Display,Auto Power On : Electronics
> 
> 
> 
> smile.amazon.com


Oh, that's a neat solution for those who don't need/want a full featured HTPC. Since it runs Windows, the existing Lumagen software will work great on it as is. Great suggestion!

For those who need remote access to it, I can recommend RealVNC. It's free for personal use and works great. That way, you can mount it in your rack and log-in from your laptop whenever you need to.


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> Random comments of the day: Remote
> ...


I am very intrigued by these new remotes. I assume that the trade-in program is done, but I now have five of the old-style remotes lying around, and I really would love to have one of the new ones/the new one 😅

I've seen the one with round buttons, but there was something about a different new one? PIP/PAP features mean nothing to me.

If anyone wants to trade some old ones for a new one, could point me towards where I could buy one, or just somewhere with more info, that would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Erod

My request for the remotes is RF capability.


----------



## Naiera

My request is pics of the alternative model without the round buttons 😅


----------



## bobof

Erod said:


> My request for the remotes is RF capability.


This seems a bit pointless to me. Usually if your system mandates an RF remote solution you need it for all of your devices, so it's really something to solve at a system level with eg Control4, Harmony, Savant, etc. It's hard to see what benefit having it on one device brings, other than in the most fringe of install use-cases.


----------



## Erod

bobof said:


> This seems a bit pointless to me. Usually if your system mandates an RF remote solution you need it for all of your devices, so it's really something to solve at a system level with eg Control4, Harmony, Savant, etc. It's hard to see what benefit having it on one device brings, other than in the most fringe of install use-cases.


I have a Harmony, but I don't have it programmed for the Lumagen. I'll give it a shot.


----------



## jrp

We have had overwhelmingly positive response for Alpha 7. We will release Alpha 7 as Beta 1 (with one small software fix for test patterns) as soon as Patrick can get it on the website here: lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

It is the weekend. So, please be patient just a little longer if it is not on the website today or Sunday.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> We have had overwhelmingly positive response for Alpha 7. We will release Alpha 7 as Beta 1 (with one small software fix for test patterns) as soon as Patrick can get it on the website here: lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates
> 
> It is the weekend. So, please be patient just a little longer if it is not on the website today or Sunday.


Congratulations on all the hard spectacular work!


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> My request is pics of the alternative model without the round buttons 😅


Here is a rendering of the new Radiance Pro PiP remote. Note that it has the four PiP/PoP control buttons but to add these a couple buttons on the new Radiance Pro (non-PiP) remote are not available.


----------



## EVH78

I this a new remote? Or still the recent one without light?


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Here is a rendering of the new Radiance Pro PiP remote. Note that it has the four PiP/PoP control buttons but to add these a couple buttons on the new Radiance Pro (non-PiP) remote are not available.
> 
> View attachment 3284057


----------



## Naiera

I forgot about the light in the buttons. Those are important. I'll wait for a fancy newer one with lights.


----------



## GerryWaz

Yes. I'd also wait for one with lighted buttons. IMHO, they are a must now, as much as I like the new remote.

Something else that might be nice for some--an optional plastic sleeve you could attach on the back of the remote where you could insert a card in the sleeve with your inputs and what devices. I always forget. Right now I use Post-It labels that I've printed out but they never seem to last.


----------



## MOberhardt

GerryWaz said:


> Yes. I'd also wait for one with lighted buttons. IMHO, they are a must now, as much as I like the new remote.
> 
> Something else that might be nice for some--an optional plastic sleeve you could attach on the back of the remote where you could insert a card in the sleeve with your inputs and what devices. I always forget. Right now I use Post-It labels that I've printed out but they never seem to last.


One of the many joys of having a Harmony Elite! Customize the screen commands.

I really don't understand why they stopped making them!


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> I forgot about the light in the buttons. Those are important. I'll wait for a fancy newer one with lights.


Glad you commented on the back-light not being supported in the current remote controls.

I forgot to note that neither the Radiance Pro (non-PiP) remote, or the Radiance Pro PiP remote, have a back light.

While we are considering a back-light version of the non-PiP remote, we are not working on such a remote currently and if we did come out with one it would be at least several years from now.


----------



## Naiera

I don't have a remote in use that doesn't light up, except for the smaller Apple TV and Hegel ones. I'll have to weigh my options 😅


----------



## SJHT

The eagle has landed….



Lumagen



*Beta 050722- Posted 052122 Beta 1 of the Pipeline Enhancement update.* This update optimizes and enhances nearly all Radiance Pro video pipeline processing. Before this release your Radiance Pro was already the best video processor by far. This release takes it to a whole new level. While Lumagen considers this a Beta release, it has been running well in the field as the Alpha 7 release so we are comfortable having anyone interested test it out. There is a large improvement for quality/sharpness/precision for content output at 4k60 (or 4k50), for 16:9 content shown on a 2.35 or 2.40 screen, and 480i/576i/1080i deinterlacing. We added a new “bottom of image” shift-up feature for subtitles. To see subtitles for anamorphic content on an anamorphic screen, manually select the source aspect and then activate the subtitle feature by pressing down arrow when not zoomed in. First down-arrow press moves the image’s bottom edge up as much as 8% depending on input and output aspect. The up and down arrows must be programmed for zoom (default) to use the subtitle feature. Added HDCP delay option under Global: HDCP Delay that is useful for some projectors/TVs that need more time handshaking HDMI before the Radiance Pro output initializes HDCP. Fix for vertical shift issue where some values would cause an incorrect position. Fix for a single frame of delay in DTM scene changes when using the Video Delay feature. Other minor bugfixes and improvements. Please report any issues to Lumagen support.
_Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## SJHT

Immediately after installing, started watching a baseball game on DISH ESPN. Dish outputs at 1080i which then gets converted to 4K60 to my Sony 995. Wow!


----------



## fatjulio

Are all the planned down scaling improvements in this release?


----------



## jrp

fatjulio said:


> Are all the planned down scaling improvements in this release?


Yes, all the planned improvements are in.

Note that we are continuing to look at other improvements and might revisit down-sampling at a later date.


----------



## SJHT

I may be crazy, but I upgraded when I paused in the middle of a movie. I swear the sound quality improved slightly for the remainder. Probably not related, but does this upgrade do anything for audio? Have a 5348…. Video is clearly an improvement. Thanks. SJ


----------



## DigitalAV

SJHT said:


> I may be crazy, but I upgraded when I paused in the middle of a movie. I swear the sound quality improved slightly for the remainder. Probably not related, but does this upgrade do anything for audio? Have a 5348…. Video is clearly an improvement. Thanks. SJ


Maybe your psychosomatic happiness just kicked in when you saw the video improvement but I love it!


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> I may be crazy, but I upgraded when I paused in the middle of a movie. I swear the sound quality improved slightly for the remainder. Probably not related, but does this upgrade do anything for audio? Have a 5348…. Video is clearly an improvement. Thanks. SJ


Take a look at your Strato cover art page, you should see a very noticeable improvement there. Same with an AppleTV menu if you have it set to 4K60 for the menu.


----------



## Clark Burk

Naiera said:


> I forgot about the light in the buttons. Those are important. I'll wait for a fancy newer one with lights.


The best remote was the Oppo remote for their players. Big bright buttons and really easy to see when it lite up. Other remotes today pale in comparison. I usually always have a small rechargeable flashlight handy to brighten things up.


jrp said:


> Update procedure:
> 
> In addition to the normal update procedure I am now recommending that other equipment be off during Radiance Pro updates. There have been some issues where I believe the Radiance Pro update, which can have the HDMI I/O doing unexpected things affecting surrounding equipment, has left the projector and/or audio processing HDMI input chips in a funk. Turning the system off, and then doing the Pro update is a good idea IMO.
> 
> I am now also recommending that after each update the Radiance Pro be removed from wall power and then reconnected. This makes certain the Radiance Pro microprocessor can do a clean boot. We have had a couple cases lately of systems having an issue after an update that goes away after wall power is removed and restored to the Radiance Pro.
> 
> There have been cases of HDMI cables getting bumped during the update process and an HDMI connection being compromised. This is more common than one might think even for people who swore they could not have bumped an HDMI cable. So, I now recommend pressing in each end of every HDMI cable while wiggling the plug left and right to make sure the plug is seated properly after each update. I do this for all connections on the back of our Radiance Pro in the Lumagen Demo Theater after each update, and sometimes all HDMI connections.
> 
> These steps are not required, but I do recommend doing the them for each update. If you do have a weird behavior after an update remove wall power from all equipment, restore power and turn the system on as you normally would. Press in a wiggle the HDMI plugs as noted above. Then if the weirdness persists, it might be an issue with your unit and the update you just did.


I thought I would re-post this update procedure that Jim posted a few days ago in case some of you missed it.


----------



## Naiera

Clark Burk said:


> The best remote was the Oppo remote for their players. Big bright buttons and really easy to see when it lite up. Other remotes today pale in comparison. I usually always have a small rechargeable flashlight handy to brighten things up.


I agree that it's a good remote, except on mine the skip forward button has been (ab)used so much that it can be rather difficult to activate 😜 I watch a lot of anime, so there's a lot of skipping opening and closing sequences if the songs aren't any good.


----------



## Wayne Z

Netflix HDR doesn't look right

I have a Sony VW885 and a Lumagen Radiance Pro. 4k/HDR looks ok on discs, Apple TV+, and Amazon Prime. But Netflix never looks very good, too dark and poor contrast. Has anyone else had this problem, or is there something I can do about it?













/


----------



## garyolearysteele

Wayne Z said:


> Netflix HDR doesn't look right
> 
> I have a Sony VW885 and a Lumagen Radiance Pro. 4k/HDR looks ok on discs, Apple TV+, and Amazon Prime. But Netflix never looks very good, too dark and poor contrast. Has anyone else had this problem, or is there something I can do about it?


I have the same projector and a lumagen and find the same. I’ve not found a solution unfortunately I just actively avoid it now and try find alternative non HDR versions if I can. When I can’t find an SDR version sometimes use the contrast enhancer on the Sony just to try make the image a little more watchable. One example is Ozark, at times it’s just unwatchable for me, I think it was episode 10 of the latest season, lots of dark content, I had to switch it off and get an SDR version, which looked great.


----------



## c.kingsley

Wayne Z said:


> Netflix HDR doesn't look right
> 
> I have a Sony VW885 and a Lumagen Radiance Pro. 4k/HDR looks ok on discs, Apple TV+, and Amazon Prime. But Netflix never looks very good, too dark and poor contrast. Has anyone else had this problem, or is there something I can do about it?


What source/player are you watching Netflix on? I use an Xbox One X and haven't noticed anything wrong with Netflix HDR via the Lumagen.


----------



## flashedvirus0

Wayne Z said:


> Netflix HDR doesn't look right
> 
> I have a Sony VW885 and a Lumagen Radiance Pro. 4k/HDR looks ok on discs, Apple TV+, and Amazon Prime. But Netflix never looks very good, too dark and poor contrast. Has anyone else had this problem, or is there something I can do about it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /


Netflix HDR on Apple TV box is dark for me as well. Whenever I’ll be watching anything in HDR on Netflix, I always switch over to my Nvidia Shield TV. It does a much better job. 

In fact, apart from Netflix, I’ve noticed that the Apple TV in general does not handle HDR content all that well across the board. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## selçuk canara

How can we change the subtitle position in the new beta firmware?


----------



## raullopez1234

I just placed an isco IIIL lens on my JVC x750 and was wondering if the lumagen will be able to offer me 4k 60hz anamorphic mode considering that my projector is not capable of it.


----------



## jrp

raullopez1234 said:


> I just placed an isco IIIL lens on my JVC x750 and was wondering if the lumagen will be able to offer me 4k 60hz anamorphic mode considering that my projector is not capable of it.


Yes.

We have a lot of customers with an anamorphic lens using the Radiance Pro for aspect ratio control to get the most our of their projector.


----------



## jrp

selçuk canara said:


> How can we change the subtitle position in the new beta firmware?


The new subtitle feature does not move subtitles from their position in the source raster. It moves the bottom active video edge up so they become visible when placed outside the active image area.


----------



## Bubblehead00

Just updated to the Beta software load last night. Wow! Absolutely night and day difference. Most noticeable on the Kaleidescape menu screen and AppleTV.


----------



## nbynw

Would anyone mind sharing pictures of their kaleidescape and apple tv menu screens with the new beta update.


----------



## uderman

Previous to the pipeline upgrade, this was my configuration which gave me the best SD processing.

Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348

Input 2 - Kaleidescape Strato-C

Input 8 - Lumagen Radiance 2144 (1080p50/60 out)

Lumagen Radiance 2144 - Input 1 - Kaleidescape M700 (480i->480p, 576i->576p)


After the pipeline upgrade, I changed my configuration to this.

Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348

Input 2 - Kaleidescape Strato-C

Input 8 - Kaleidescape M700 (480i->480p, 576i->576p)


Note: The Encore system (Strato-C) has HD and UHD content only. The Premiere system (M700) has SD and HD content only.


Summary:

The new pipeline upgrade eliminated the need for a second Lumagen Radiance for cascaded upscaling for SD content. In other words, Lumagen Radiance Pro is 2 in 1 now. The new pipeline upgrade matched the sharpness of the cascaded upscaling while having lower ‘mosquito’ noise.


----------



## DigitalAV

uderman said:


> Previous to the pipeline upgrade, this was my configuration which gave me the best SD processing.
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348
> 
> Input 2 - Kaleidescape Strato-C
> 
> Input 8 - Lumagen Radiance 2144 (1080p50/60 out)
> 
> Lumagen Radiance 2144 - Input 1 - Kaleidescape M700 (480i->480p, 576i->576p)
> 
> 
> After the pipeline upgrade, I changed my configuration to this.
> 
> Lumagen Radiance Pro 5348
> 
> Input 2 - Kaleidescape Strato-C
> 
> Input 8 - Kaleidescape M700 (480i->480p, 576i->576p)
> 
> 
> Note: The Encore system (Strato-C) has HD and UHD content only. The Premiere system (M700) has SD and HD content only.
> 
> 
> Summary:
> 
> The new pipeline upgrade eliminated the need for a second Lumagen Radiance for cascaded upscaling for SD content. In other words, Lumagen Radiance Pro is 2 in 1 now. The new pipeline upgrade matched the sharpness of the cascaded upscaling while having lower ‘mosquito’ noise.


----------



## Mikesterz

flashedvirus0 said:


> Netflix HDR on Apple TV box is dark for me as well. Whenever I’ll be watching anything in HDR on Netflix, I always switch over to my Nvidia Shield TV. It does a much better job.
> 
> In fact, apart from Netflix, I’ve noticed that the Apple TV in general does not handle HDR content all that well across the board.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


However, I don’t think the shield will match the native frame rate of Netflix. So you may notice judder. You’ll also want to check if the app supports Atmos on the shield. I know with Apple 4k TV and Netflix, you get frame rate match, 4k HDR and Atmos.


----------



## Drexler

Mikesterz said:


> However, I don’t think the shield will match the native frame rate of Netflix. So you may notice judder. You’ll also want to check if the app supports Atmos on the shield. I know with Apple 4k TV and Netflix, you get frame rate match, 4k HDR and Atmos.


Yes, you can match the netflix framerate on the shield, but you need to click on the " match frame rate" function in the menu everytime it changes. 4k HDR and atmos also works fine on Netflix with the shield.


----------



## Mikesterz

Drexler said:


> Yes, you can match the netflix framerate on the shield, but you need to click on the " match frame rate" function in the menu everytime it changes. 4k HDR and atmos also works fine on Netflix with the shield.


That’s right. It wasn’t auto. But at least it’s there.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Can someone explain why a kaleidescape menu would look better after this update? Is it just because it's a high frame rate (e.g. 60fps)?

For my part I cannot detect any differences after the beta release, but all my sources are 2160p24.


----------



## MDesigns

Ian_Currie said:


> Can someone explain why a kaleidescape menu would look better after this update? Is it just because it's a high frame rate (e.g. 60fps)?
> 
> For my part I cannot detect any differences after the beta release, but all my sources are 2160p24.


For some reason the Lumagen was downgrading all 60Hz(and 50Hz) sources before and that could be best seen with static patterns, menus, etc. That has been fixed with the new big update!


----------



## Ian_Currie

MDesigns said:


> For some reason the Lumagen was downgrading all 60Hz(and 50Hz) sources before and that could be best seen with static patterns, menus, etc. That has been fixed with the new big update!


Ahhh, OK, thank you.


----------



## c.kingsley

Based on experience so far, is it worth loading this beta firmware or should I wait until full release?


----------



## Erod

c.kingsley said:


> Based on experience so far, is it worth loading this beta firmware or should I wait until full release?


Do it


----------



## dlinsley

Wayne Z said:


> Netflix HDR doesn't look right
> 
> I have a Sony VW885 and a Lumagen Radiance Pro. 4k/HDR looks ok on discs, Apple TV+, and Amazon Prime. But Netflix never looks very good, too dark and poor contrast. Has anyone else had this problem, or is there something I can do about it?





garyolearysteele said:


> I have the same projector and a lumagen and find the same. I’ve not found a solution unfortunately I just actively avoid it now and try find alternative non HDR versions if I can. When I can’t find an SDR version sometimes use the contrast enhancer on the Sony just to try make the image a little more watchable. One example is Ozark, at times it’s just unwatchable for me, I think it was episode 10 of the latest season, lots of dark content, I had to switch it off and get an SDR version, which looked great.





flashedvirus0 said:


> Netflix HDR on Apple TV box is dark for me as well. Whenever I’ll be watching anything in HDR on Netflix, I always switch over to my Nvidia Shield TV. It does a much better job.
> 
> In fact, apart from Netflix, I’ve noticed that the Apple TV in general does not handle HDR content all that well across the board.


@flashedvirus0 are you also using a VW885? Is everyone using the new AppleTV 4K? I don't reproduce this issue with my original AppleTV 4K (on a JVC projector, but it shouldn't matter if the Radiance is doing the DTM). I've not tried Ozark, but other shows and movies look good. For low APL also try the desert nighttime scenes in Moon Knight on Disney+.


----------



## flashedvirus0

dlinsley said:


> @flashedvirus0 are you also using a VW885? Is everyone using the new AppleTV 4K? I don't reproduce this issue with my original AppleTV 4K (on a JVC projector, but it shouldn't matter if the Radiance is doing the DTM). I've not tried Ozark, but other shows and movies look good. For low APL also try the desert nighttime scenes in Moon Knight on Disney+.


I'm not using an 885, I have an NZ7. But even on my Sony X940E, which is the 2nd display split from my LRP, HDR doesn't pop from the latest gen ATV 4K like it does from other streaming devices like the Shield Pro.


----------



## MDesigns

If I remember correctly AppleTV does not passthrough HDR metadata correctly(cant remember just netflix or all?) and Lumagen then relies to that incorrect metadata and does not tonemap HDR correctly. As a workaround there is a setting somewhere in the Lumagen to manually input static metadata that is more correct than AppleTV's output.


----------



## Hoi

I tested out the same episode of a show on Netflix the other night with my Apple TV 4K and Nvidia Shield. They both gave different HDR metadata. I don't know if either is correct.


----------



## aguy

This discussion is very interesting about Netflix on the Apple TV as I am about to set mine up ( up until now I have been using Kodi only) 

Maybe we will need to setup a memory in the lumagen specifically for Netflix appletv which uses different DTM settings than all other sources. What a PITA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I have a DIVA in between my HTP-1 and the Lumagen and the ATV4K set to output DV @24Hz and have not had any issues with the ATV and HDR, even with Netflix (it is definitely not too dark). The DiVA is configured to spoof the DV-capable display with default Max nits @1000. Perhaps this bypasses the ATV HDR issues. I think it looks fantastic with the DTM being handled by the LRP.


----------



## thrang

Jim/Patrick - Fantastic job on the new firmware! - 4k60 NHL Playoffs never looked better!


























(photos from my GTZ-380)


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> If I remember correctly AppleTV does not passthrough HDR metadata correctly(cant remember just netflix or all?) and Lumagen then relies to that incorrect metadata and does not tonemap HDR correctly. As a workaround there is a setting somewhere in the Lumagen to manually input static metadata that is more correct than AppleTV's output.


The Pro determines the MaxCLL itself on a frame by frame basis. It does not depend on the AppleTV (or other source) Metadata, with an exception.

The Pro uses the HDR10 "Static" MaxCLL which is supposed to be for the entire program as an indication of the maximum brightness in that program. Then the Radiance Pro DTM will not "Pad" any frame above that number. This works well for content streamed as HDR10. However, the AppleTV playing DV output as HDR10 randomly changes the MaxCLL about every 30 seconds or so. This is an issue and a violation of the "Static" HDR10 MaxCLL requirement. It can cause a change to DTM results.

So for DV content output as HDR10 from the AppleTV consider setting the Pro input menu under HDR setup as "always use Default Max." The normal Default Max is 4000 nits, which covers all current consumer content and so should work for the AppleTV content. Then the AppleTV changing the MaxCLL throughout the program cannot affect the DTM results.

Once this is set, you can try adjusting the Global Max Light, the Low Ratio, and the Dyn Pad, to see if you can optimize these for the AppleTV. Save any changes.

I do not know if the AppleTV changes the actual video data as part of its DV to HDR10 conversion. If so, it is possible this is why you notice DV content played through AppleTV and output as HDR10 does not look as good. No idea if this is true or not. Just wondering why you are not liking the AppleTV HDR10 output.


----------



## raullopez1234

Can someone recommend a UHD player that offers source direct , I would like the lumagen to do the upscaling . I'm aware that some Sony's offer this feature but would also like the cheapest player as long as it's reliable.


----------



## Drexler

Just tried the new FW. Nice upgrade and fantastic customer support!

The vertical squeese to fit the subtitles is a really useful addition that I put to use with a foreign movie on Netflix yesterday. This is something I will use a lot! Also smart that you can adjust the size of the bottom area by pressing more than once. However, I find that the step changes are way too large which results in an unecessarily large bottom area. Often it's only half a line of text that is shown below the image area. Therefore, is it possible to adjust the size of the step changes somewhere in the menu? I think a 1 or 2% squeese should be enough in most cases.

Thanks again!


----------



## Clark Burk

raullopez1234 said:


> Can someone recommend a UHD player that offers source direct , I would like the lumagen to do the upscaling . I'm aware that some Sony's offer this feature but would also like the cheapest player as long as it's reliable.


I’d recommend either the Sony UBP-X800M2 or possibly UBP-X700. The 800 is built a little better but I’ve see a few posts saying the 700 is a little better playing the triple layer UHDs. I say possibly the 700 as I’m not sure the setting “original resolution” is in fact included on the 700. So unless someone confirms the 700 as having that setting I’d stick with the 800. 
I’d still go with the Panasonic for the same money though. If you’re going to be watching a 2 hour blu-ray it takes 20 seconds to change the setting. If you’re one that sometimes forgets to check the setting before a movie then stick with the Sony.


----------



## Hoi

Question about the picture sharpening enhance feature on the Lumagen. For the most part, should the values for horizontal and vertical be the same? I'm not sure if it is just me but prior to this new alpha/beta firmware, setting the sharpening amount to 3 was too much and I settled for 1. I'm using 3 now with the new firmware and it looks great.


----------



## jrp

Hoi said:


> Question about the picture sharpening enhance feature on the Lumagen. For the most part, should the values for horizontal and vertical be the same? I'm not sure if it is just me but prior to this new alpha/beta firmware, setting the sharpening amount to 3 was too much and I settled for 1. I'm using 3 now with the new firmware and it looks great.


Thanks for posting on this. I am sure others would like to have some more information on this topic.

====

The pipeline enhancement may well change your preference for the sharpness setting. This is due to the pipeline enhancements improving the image.

Since enhancements are a personal preference, I suggest spending some time looking at the various setting with different content to come up with you preferred settings. These settings are per input memory and input resolution. You may want different values for HD and UHD content.

You may well want the horizontal and vertical settings to be different by a click or two. However, again this is a personal preference choice. I suggest initially testing them with the same values to get close. Then you can make small adjustments to horizontal and vertical independently to see if you want them to be different.


----------



## alv

Played some with the enhancement. Very little benefit for 4K even at high. Noticeable at 3/3 for lower resolutions. Certainly sharper.


----------



## docrog

Clark Burk said:


> I’d recommend either the Sony UBP-X800M2 or possibly UBP-X700. The 800 is built a little better but I’ve see a few posts saying the 700 is a little better playing the triple layer UHDs. I say possibly the 700 as I’m not sure the setting *“original resolution”* is in fact included on the 700. So unless someone confirms the 700 as having that setting I’d stick with the 800.
> I’d still go with the Panasonic for the same money though. If you’re going to be watching a 2 hour blu-ray it takes 20 seconds to change the setting. If you’re one that sometimes forgets to check the setting before a movie then stick with the Sony.


I own both the 700 & 800M2 Sony players (and just checked the 800M2 manual). As I'd thought, neither player offers *"original resolution"* for output. Both are capable of turning off 4K upscaling, but output from both DVD & HD Blu-Ray discs will be at 1080p when video resolution is set to "AUTO" (and 4K upscaling disabled). Other than the heavier build and larger chassis, I've found that both Sony players operate identically. FWIW, it seems to me that the new RP firmware doesn't perform an appreciably better job at upscaling 480i or 1080i content directly to 4K from either SD DVDs or TiVo content (such as several channels from my cable provider) than when I output to the RP at 1080p (initial upscaling performed by TiVo or disc player) with the RP performing final 4K upscaling. Is it possible that I'm missing some RP setting that would show an improvement in better upscaling interlaced content?


----------



## Chicagobear1

docrog said:


> I own both the 700 & 800M2 Sony players (and just checked the 800M2 manual). As I'd thought, neither player offers *"original resolution"* for output. Both are capable of turning off 4K upscaling, but output from both DVD & HD Blu-Ray discs will be at 1080p (undefeatable). Other than the heavier build and larger chassis, I've found that both Sony players operate identically. FWIW, it seems to me that the new RP firmware doesn't perform an appreciably better job at upscaling 480i or 1080i content directly to 4K from either SD DVDs or TiVo content (such as several channels from my cable provider) than when I output to the RP at 1080p (initial upscaling performed by TiVo or disc player) with the RP performing final 4K upscaling. Is it possible that I'm missing some RP setting that would show an improvement in better upscaling interlaced content?


4k 50hz & 60hz looks better with 4k direct in and out fantastic. SD with DVD and Sky Q skyhd cable interlacing not so good


----------



## woofer

alv said:


> *Played some with the enhancement. Very little benefit for 4K *even at high. Noticeable at 3/3 for lower resolutions. Certainly sharper.


Disagree !!  For ME there is a *noticeable improvement* ....using "H" @4 and "V" @3


----------



## woofer

alv said:


> Played some with the enhancement. Very little benefit for 4K *even at high*. Noticeable at 3/3 for lower resolutions. Certainly sharper.


Are you referring to the HIGH as in the "Filter" ? Be aware HIGH reduces the "Sharpening" "Effect" in the image overall...... I find for good 4K material "NORM" is preferable...


----------



## gerard1meehan

Something that had come up earlier, and something I had originally reached out to Jim on via the support email.

I was looking for a macro code something I can send via my crestron to the radiance pro that could force my Roku to feed 1080p content at 1080p via EDID, and then of course switch back to 4K feed for 4K content. The lumigen does such a better job of upscaling why would I choose to have a $100 plus device do it. His recommendation was to set up a separate memory as in MEMB with 1080 EDID. And that did work as intended provided you also hit Alt previous after changing memories. I'm assuming this is just sending a different handshake to the Roku.

I came up with a second solution. As my radiance pro only has six HDMI ports I programmed input 7 on the remote to use the same HDMI port that I traditionally use for my Roku. The reason why this works better for me is that I kept on forgetting to switch back to memory A for my other inputs.

I will get my crestron programmer to include input 7 under my Roku tab. The option to switch between input content 1080p content and 4K content will select the correct input number & include a macro for the alt previous for each time you change or open the tab.


I'll see how it goes and share


----------



## Clark Burk

docrog said:


> I own both the 700 & 800M2 Sony players (and just checked the 800M2 manual). As I'd thought, neither player offers *"original resolution"* for output. Both are capable of turning off 4K upscaling, but output from both DVD & HD Blu-Ray discs will be at 1080p (undefeatable). Other than the heavier build and larger chassis, I've found that both Sony players operate identically. FWIW, it seems to me that the new RP firmware doesn't perform an appreciably better job at upscaling 480i or 1080i content directly to 4K from either SD DVDs or TiVo content (such as several channels from my cable provider) than when I output to the RP at 1080p (initial upscaling performed by TiVo or disc player) with the RP performing final 4K upscaling. Is it possible that I'm missing some RP setting that would show an improvement in better upscaling interlaced content?


I stand corrected. I was not thinking about other resolutions other than blu-ray and 4k. Maybe it was the 4k upscaling setting. Does that keep blu-rays at 1080p and pass on the 4k material to the monitor? I've been using the Oppo instead of the Sony with the LRP for some time now.


----------



## gerard1meehan

docrog said:


> I own both the 700 & 800M2 Sony players (and just checked the 800M2 manual). As I'd thought, neither player offers *"original resolution"* for output. Both are capable of turning off 4K upscaling, but output from both DVD & HD Blu-Ray discs will be at 1080p (undefeatable). Other than the heavier build and larger chassis, I've found that both Sony players operate identically. FWIW, it seems to me that the new RP firmware doesn't perform an appreciably better job at upscaling 480i or 1080i content directly to 4K from either SD DVDs or TiVo content (such as several channels from my cable provider) than when I output to the RP at 1080p (initial upscaling performed by TiVo or disc player) with the RP performing final 4K upscaling. Is it possible that I'm missing some RP setting that would show an improvement in better upscaling interlaced content?


Both the Sony 1000ES and 1100ES have the option for original resolution. And they do put out DVDs at 480 or 576 depending on the disc. But I believe both of discontinued.


----------



## docrog

Clark Burk said:


> I stand corrected. I was not thinking about other resolutions other than blu-ray and 4k. Maybe it was the 4k upscaling setting. Does that keep blu-rays at 1080p and pass on the 4k material to the monitor? I've been using the Oppo instead of the Sony with the LRP for some time now.


Yes, that's how they output when "AUTO" is selected for "VIDEO RESOLUTION". A real value of the inexpensive Sony 700/800M2 players is that, with "permanent" disabling of 4K upscaling, there's no issue playing 1080p 3D content or passing through 4K content without having to toggle back and forth as you have to do with the Panasonic players (one needs to manually set the maximum output to 1080p to play 3D content and then return it to 4K for that native material). I do need to modify my original post: both the 700 & 800M2 players will allow you to "*natively"* output SD content by manually selecting that lower video resolution, but then you'd need to later manually reset the resolution to AUTO for HD & UHD content (similar to what I'd mentioned for Panasonic players). You'd have to manually select either 480i OR 480p to match your SD content, essentially playing in native resolution by "fooling" the maximum resolution of the display; this isn't the same as having the output always set for native resolution. As posted above, the 1000ES/1100ES players provide the option for "original resolution", eliminating the need to access those setup menus for SD/HD/UHD content. FWIW, the Sony 700/800M2/1000ES/100ES players also are SACD capable, which the Panasonic 420/820/900/9000 players are *NOT*.


----------



## asherman8

Kris Deering said:


> Take a look at your Strato cover art page, you should see a very noticeable improvement there. Same with an AppleTV menu if you have it set to 4K60 for the menu.


Unfortunately, this does not ring true when viewing the AppleTV menu in 4K60, but always in NLS. Phenomenal color but the Icons remain pixelated… (As noted, only in NLS which is my default)


----------



## Kris Deering

asherman8 said:


> Unfortunately, this does not ring true when viewing the AppleTV menu in 4K60, but always in NLS. Phenomenal color but the Icons remain pixelated… (As noted, only in NLS which is my default)


You shouldn't need NLS with the Strato menus. Setup your Strato for a scope menu system so it doesn't have to use NLS.


----------



## flashedvirus0

Deleted


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> You shouldn't need NLS with the Strato menus. Setup your Strato for a scope menu system so it doesn't have to use NLS.


Adding to Kris' comment on the Strato:

Select the Strato OSD as 2.35 in its Video setup menu. Then in the Strato Advanced section enable "Report content type Meta Data"

In the Radiance Pro _if_ you are using Auto Aspect, in the Auto Aspect setup select "Use Graphics Flag" (the HDMI info frame flag the Strato actually sends) and set it to 2.35. Accept the change, and then do a Save. 

After these changes the Strato reports when the OSD (at 2.35 aspect) is displayed. The Pro sees the Graphics Flag and auto aspect will go to 2.35 source aspect as selected in the Auto Aspect menu.

This is a much better approach than having the Strato menu be 16:9 and then using NLS to stretch to 2.35.


----------



## jevansoh

Hello, I have the 2U version of the 4446+ and am moving all of my AV equipment to a 42U Server Rack.

I want to rack mount the 2U 4446+ in this new rack, but my question is, can I just use the rack ears without a shelf, or does the device need to rest on and be supported by a shelf, with the rack ears being just a cosmetic thing to tie everything together?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

jevansoh said:


> Hello, I have the 2U version of the 4446+ and am moving all of my AV equipment to a 42U Server Rack.
> 
> I want to rack mount the 2U 4446+ in this new rack, but my question is, can I just use the rack ears without a shelf, or does the device need to rest on and be supported by a shelf, with the rack ears being just a cosmetic thing to tie everything together?
> 
> Thanks for your help.


No shelf with rack ears. Should leave 1U space above and below the RP. You will get better cooling this way.


----------



## Htnut2000

gerard1meehan said:


> Something that had come up earlier, and something I had originally reached out to Jim on via the support email.
> 
> I was looking for a macro code something I can send via my crestron to the radiance pro that could force my Roku to feed 1080p content at 1080p via EDID, and then of course switch back to 4K feed for 4K content. The lumigen does such a better job of upscaling why would I choose to have a $100 plus device do it. His recommendation was to set up a separate memory as in MEMB with 1080 EDID. And that did work as intended provided you also hit Alt previous after changing memories. I'm assuming this is just sending a different handshake to the Roku.
> 
> I came up with a second solution. As my radiance pro only has six HDMI ports I programmed input 7 on the remote to use the same HDMI port that I traditionally use for my Roku. The reason why this works better for me is that I kept on forgetting to switch back to memory A for my other inputs.
> 
> I will get my crestron programmer to include input 7 under my Roku tab. The option to switch between input content 1080p content and 4K content will select the correct input number & include a macro for the alt previous for each time you change or open the tab.
> 
> 
> I'll see how it goes and share


Great idea!

I have tried this on my Apple TV and it frees up precious memories and makes it simpler for other users

All I have to do now is to add 2 buttons two my Crestron to switch between 1080P and 4K

Thanks for sharing


----------



## jevansoh

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> No shelf with rack ears. Should leave 1U space above and below the RP. You will get better cooling this way.


Great! I will just use the rack ears only with no shelf and will leave 1U of space both above and below the device.

Thanks for your fast response.

I just ordered the rack ears from CurtPalme since my unit didn't come with them when I originally purchased it.

Thanks again.


----------



## Nima

Installed the new beta yesterday and watched Kenobi on my NZ8. 

Wow Disney+ never looked better. I could not believe I was watching streamed content.

I increased sharpness to 4/3 and the picture just pops.

Did the update also improve scaling from 3840 to 4096?

Looking forward to some UHD discs this weekend.

Kudos to the Lumagen Team!


----------



## docrog

Can anyone comment on how much closer streaming of (compressed) UHD/HDR content now comes to the same titles on UHD discs with the most recent RP firmware update because of 60Hz improvement?


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Can anyone comment on how much closer streaming of (compressed) UHD/HDR content now comes to the same titles on UHD discs with the most recent RP firmware update because of 60Hz improvement?


Well, 95% (this is admittedly a guess) of streaming UHD/HDR content (as well as discs) is 23.976Hz or 24.000Hz, so I don't think the 60Hz improvements will really apply here.

The bitrate (of video and audio) of streaming UHD/HDR content is really the bottleneck, which is why disc will always be better, in general.


----------



## bjorg

It's possible that some may have left their Apple TV on default settings where it doesn't match the framerate of the content. I would assume those users would see a big improvement. However, I don't expect there to be a big overlap between those users and Lumagen customers! 😁


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Well, 95% (this is admittedly a guess) of streaming UHD/HDR content (as well as discs) is 23.976Hz or 24.000Hz, so I don't think the 60Hz improvements will really apply here.
> 
> The bitrate (of video and audio) of streaming UHD/HDR content is really the bottleneck, which is why disc will always be better, in general.


Thanks for your reply. I guess I was erroneously thinking that output from the Roku & Apple streamers were 60Hz..............


----------



## bjorg

docrog said:


> Thanks for your reply. I guess I was erroneously thinking that output from the Roku & Apple streamers were 60Hz..............


It depends on your settings. If your streamer adjusts the frame rate then you shouldn't see as much of a change.


----------



## HD-Dave

Sorry to rain on the parade but updated to beta 050722 and find that all my 18Ghz inputs bar one, Oppo clone are in "black & white". (looks like when in the days of component connection the cable where connected incorrectly) The 9Ghz inputs are are blurred/out of focus and any text shows jaggies. Switching inputs creates massive sync issues
Outputting @ 9Ghz 4k60
reverting back to 090121 cures all ills as calibrated by Gordon

my 18Ghz inputs are SkyQ at 4k10bit , and a number of 4k media players as well as the oppo clone

Anyone else found issues such as these


----------



## bferbrache

New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Update procedure: In addition to the normal update procedure I am now recommending that other equipment be off during Radiance Pro updates. There have been some issues where I believe the Radiance Pro update, which can have the HDMI I/O doing unexpected things affecting surrounding equipment...




www.avsforum.com





Have you tried the boot mode update? 
Can't do any harm to try


----------



## Chicagobear1

HD-Dave said:


> Sorry to rain on the parade but updated to beta 050722 and find that all my 18Ghz inputs bar one, Oppo clone are in "black & white". (looks like when in the days of component connection the cable where connected incorrectly) The 9Ghz inputs are are blurred/out of focus and any text shows jaggies. Switching inputs creates massive sync issues
> Outputting @ 9Ghz 4k60
> reverting back to 090121 cures all ills as calibrated by Gordon
> 
> my 18Ghz inputs are SkyQ at 4k10bit , and a number of 4k media players as well as the oppo clone
> 
> Anyone else found issues such as these


Try and reload the firmware and switch the power of at the mains for 2 minutes could be a dirty download. Change the sky Q settings to 1080i instead of the 4k 10bit see if that works. Then change it back to 4k 10 bit see if that helps. I had a similar problem i reinstalled the firmware and powered of everything and fiddled about with some input settings switching back and 4th. It's working with mine now


----------



## Nima

I am amazed how much the sharpness setting increased in quality. You can now run it much higher before introducing artifacts.


----------



## Roland Janus

new firmware: 3D broken?

Everything says 3D, the projector (switched manually to SBS through the Pro) and the Pro status , but it isn't, it's pretty much flat.
Can anyone check?


----------



## HD-Dave

Chicagobear1 said:


> Try and reload the firmware and switch the power of at the mains for 2 minutes could be a dirty download. Change the sky Q settings to 1080i instead of the 4k 10bit see if that works. Then change it back to 4k 10 bit see if that helps. I had a similar problem i reinstalled the firmware and powered of everything and fiddled about with some input settings switching back and 4th. It's working with mine now


Thanks

tried all this and yes switching to 1080p for the 4k units restores "colour" for t SkyQ have to select 1080i as 1080p still in black and white. Switching all back to 4k reverts to B&W again

Tried updating with all connections to radiance switched off and then removed removed and still no joy
sent query to lumagen support


----------



## jrp

HD-Dave:

I just remembered that there is an issue with 9 GHz input rate for 050722. I do not recall the details. It might affect some cases for 1080p, but that is just conjecture on my part.

Patrick has the 9 GHz input issue sorted and we should be posting a new release very soon that fixes this. Not sure it is the issue you are seeing, but if not please email us a lumagen.com support after you load the next release and test it out.


----------



## blake

thrang said:


> Jim/Patrick - Fantastic job on the new firmware! - 4k60 NHL Playoffs never looked better!
> 
> View attachment 3285491
> 
> View attachment 3285493
> 
> View attachment 3285495
> 
> 
> (photos from my GTZ-380)


What network and source device you using for NHL playoffs ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thrang

blake said:


> What network and source device you using for NHL playoffs ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was a TNT broadcast - YouTubeTV on Apple TV 4K


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Well, 95% (this is admittedly a guess) of streaming UHD/HDR content (as well as discs) is 23.976Hz or 24.000Hz, so I don't think the 60Hz improvements will really apply here.
> 
> The bitrate (of video and audio) of streaming UHD/HDR content is really the bottleneck, which is why disc will always be better, in general.


My Roku is outputting at 59+(60)Hz. I find the image to be really splendid and I'm not sure that, for my eyes, it's noticeably different than native UHD (24Hz) content.


----------



## bferbrache

I posted the following on the HD Fury vertex 2 thread but no response yet, can anyone with a Lumagen and vertex 2 advise? 
Thanks 

I have just ordered a vertex 2, primarily to increase the number of 4K 60hz hdmi inputs I have available on my Lumagen Radiance Pro. I currently use the Lumagen edid memories (A-D) to let my source know whether to send a 4K signal (mem B) or a 1080p signal (mem A). If my Apple TV is passing through the vertex before the Lumagen can anyone recommend which edid option I should choose for the vertex? Should I consider using the vertex instead of the Lumagen to restrict the output from the Apple TV? I’m unsure if it is possible to utilise and switch between more than one edid on the same input on the vertex?
thanks
Brian


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

bferbrache said:


> I posted the following on the HD Fury vertex 2 thread but no response yet, can anyone with a Lumagen and vertex 2 advise?
> Thanks
> 
> I have just ordered a vertex 2, primarily to increase the number of 4K 60hz hdmi inputs I have available on my Lumagen Radiance Pro. I currently use the Lumagen edid memories (A-D) to let my source know whether to send a 4K signal (mem B) or a 1080p signal (mem A). If my Apple TV is passing through the vertex before the Lumagen can anyone recommend which edid option I should choose for the vertex? Should I consider using the vertex instead of the Lumagen to restrict the output from the Apple TV? I’m unsure if it is possible to utilise and switch between more than one edid on the same input on the vertex?
> thanks
> Brian


How many inputs do you have and why have you ran out? Can you use your receiver instead?


----------



## bferbrache

I have a 4242 so 4 inputs, no AV receiver unfortunately (apartment living so stereo amp and headphones if I want loud volume). I have too many sources so another 3 inputs by adding the vertex will sort it for me. I'm sure I can figure out what config to use but I thought I'd ask if anyone could recommend a good starting point. 
Cheers 
Brian


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> My Roku is outputting at 59+(60)Hz. I find the image to be really splendid and I'm not sure that, for my eyes, it's noticeably different than native UHD (24Hz) content.


To me, watching content in anything other than its native frame rate is just adding/subtracting info for no reason.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> To me, watching content in anything other than its native frame rate is just adding/subtracting info for no reason.


I suspect docrog's comment should be interpreted as "the quality of 4k60 content output as 4k60 now matches 4k24 content output as 4k24."

If I am correct, I can confirm his visual observation. The Beta 1 (050722) pipeline processing quality is now essentially identical for 4k24, 4k50, and 4k60 output rates. So, the image quality should look the same for all three.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> I suspect docrog's comment should be interpreted as "the quality of 4k60 content output as 4k60 now matches 4k24 content output as 4k24."


No, based on his earlier comments I believe docrog is watching 24Hz material at 60Hz with his Roku.


----------



## Erod

If I switched from a 16:9 screen to a cinescope screen, do I understand correctly that I'd have to do a full factory reset on my Lumagen, and would that mean I'd lose my 1D and 3D LUT pro calibrations in the process? And is it difficult to set up NLS for 16:9 content thereafter?


----------



## fatherom

fatherom said:


> No, based on his earlier comments I believe docrog is watching 24Hz material at 60Hz with his Roku.


@docrog am I wrong in that assumption? Are you watching 24fps material with your Roku outputting 60Hz?


----------



## MOberhardt

fatherom said:


> @docrog am I wrong in that assumption? Are you watching 24fps material with your Roku outputting 60Hz?


Yeah the very thought of doing that makes me react viscerally... LOL. Nothing like messing up video content with a 3/2 cadence


----------



## dlinsley

Erod said:


> If I switched from a 16:9 screen to a cinescope screen, do I understand correctly that I'd have to do a full factory reset on my Lumagen, and would that mean I'd lose my 1D and 3D LUT pro calibrations in the process? And is it difficult to set up NLS for 16:9 content thereafter?


You don't need to do a factory reset. You can follow the tech tips to just set the new aspect/zoom/resolution you require, and without a Save all will be restored after you standby. If you end up using a different iris position or switch from low to high lamp on your RS3000, you may need new LUTs to stay closer to reference. If they all stay the same, you should not - optical zoom (including adding a DCR lens) shouldn't affect things compared to the iris/lamp changes to match your current brightness. You could play with your current screen (just zoom off the sides if you planning on going wider) to see how things look.

Remember to backup your current config using the Lumagen Configuration tool!


----------



## Erod

dlinsley said:


> You don't need to do a factory reset. You can follow the tech tips to just set the new aspect/zoom/resolution you require, and without a Save all will be restored after you standby. If you end up using a different iris position or switch from low to high lamp on your RS3000, you may need new LUTs to stay closer to reference. If they all stay the same, you should not - optical zoom (including adding a DCR lens) shouldn't affect things compared to the iris/lamp changes to match your current brightness. You could play with your current screen (just zoom off the sides if you planning on going wider) to see how things look.
> 
> Remember to backup your current config using the Lumagen Configuration tool!


I guess i need to work with it some more because I couldn't get the 2.40 aspect change to take. It stayed in 16:9. The tech tip says I needed to do a factory reset.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> No, based on his earlier comments I believe docrog is watching 24Hz material at 60Hz with his Roku.


FWIW, last night I was able to toggle the Roku's "frame match" function (which I was unaware had previously been set to output at 60Hz) while watching one of my purchased UHD codes. To my eyes, there was absolutely no discernible difference in PQ between 24Hz and 60Hz. Additionally, there were ZERO lip sync issues at 60Hz, compared to a slight lag at 24Hz for "Fury" (UHD, watched on Vudu). FYI, I do NOT route audio through the RP, as my Denon 6700 is used as the video source switching device (Video Source -> AVR -> RP -> NX7), so any audio mismatch appears to be stemming from how the Roku manages the same UHD content at different frame rates. As for MOberhardt's prior comment, if a 3:2 pulldown cadence was being used for "Fury" at 60Hz, there was no evidence of stutter or any other image irregularity.


----------



## Naiera

Bubblehead00 said:


> Just updated to the Beta software load last night. Wow! Absolutely night and day difference. Most noticeable on the Kaleidescape menu screen and AppleTV.


What are these specific differences we talkin' 'bout?!


----------



## SJHT

Erod said:


> I guess i need to work with it some more because I couldn't get the 2.40 aspect change to take. It stayed in 16:9. The tech tip says I needed to do a factory reset.


Not sure this helps, but I have a 16:9 screen with top masking. It becomes a 2.35 by following this tech tip (page 3):



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf



Also, I’ve never done a factory reset.


----------



## FenceMan

Bubblehead00 said:


> Just updated to the Beta software load last night. Wow! Absolutely night and day difference. Most noticeable on the Kaleidescape menu screen and AppleTV.


What does this tell us about the Lumagen up to now?


----------



## docrog

SJHT said:


> Not sure this helps, but I have a 16:9 screen with top masking. It becomes a 2.35 by following this tech tip (page 3):
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I’ve never done a factory reset.


Although I fully realize that you're unlikely to watch much 4:3 content, why are you OK with dark bars on each side of the image on your 16:9 screen, but require (black) top masking for scope content rather than living with dark bars above & below the image? I find that, once I'm engaged in the content, I'm essentially unaware of the dark gray bars which are projected during wide screen movies on my 16:9 screen.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Although I fully realize that you're unlikely to watch much 4:3 content, why are you OK with dark bars on each side of the image on your 16:9 screen, but require (black) top masking for scope content rather than living with dark bars above & below the image? I find that, once I'm engaged in the content, I'm essentially unaware of the dark gray bars which are projected during wide screen movies on my 16:9 screen.


What works for you doesn't necessarily work for others. I watch very little 4:3 content (as you mentioned). I'm far more likely to watch scope content on my 16:9 screen. Thank goodness for my masking panels. My projector is different than yours, so my black levels aren't as good. Also, I have so much velvet around my screen (5' out in every direction), it makes black bars more noticeable.


----------



## SJHT

docrog said:


> Although I fully realize that you're unlikely to watch much 4:3 content, why are you OK with dark bars on each side of the image on your 16:9 screen, but require (black) top masking for scope content rather than living with dark bars above & below the image? I find that, once I'm engaged in the content, I'm essentially unaware of the dark gray bars which are projected during wide screen movies on my 16:9 screen.


When I rarely watch 4:3, I use NLS. IMO, there is a significant difference in black masking vs black bars. in the dark, my screen looks like a scope screen in this mode.


----------



## fatherom

SJHT said:


> When I rarely watch 4:3, I use NLS. IMO, there is a significant difference in black masking vs black bars. in the dark, my screen looks like a scope screen in this mode.


I wish I had that kind of black floor.


----------



## Clark Burk

FenceMan said:


> What does this tell us about the Lumagen up to now?


I don't know....perhaps that one of the best processors available just got a little bit better doing certain things. Let's hope all the manufacturers keep striving to improve their gear when possible.


----------



## jrp

For a top-down masking screen there is a recently added feature to select "Letterbox Bottom" for the Letterbox Zoom feature. When using Auto Aspect this automatically moves the active anamorphic image (any source aspect higher than 16:9) down to the bottom of the projector raster. If not using Auto Aspect, this moves the image to the bottom of the raster when you manually select the source aspect ratio.

You can select this in:

MENU->Global->Video->Features->LBOX Control. Select "Globally Bottom."

Remember to Save your changes.

===== 

As a side note:

We are getting a few requests to add "Globally Top" for Letter Box control. This could be for a bottom up masking system, or if you just want the image moved as high as possible so the back rows in the theater have a better view of the image. This will not be in the next release but it is rising in priority.


----------



## jevansoh

Hello,

I need some help measuring a Keces P8 power supply. I know this is the Lumagen thread, but I can't find any other thread that talks much about this power supply nor can I find a dedicated thread, so I hope it's ok to post this here.

I'm ordering a custom Middle Atlantic rack shelf and faceplate for the Keces P8 Power Supply, but since it's not in their database yet, they're asking me for exact dimensions with and without the feet and the exact dimensions the feet add.

Does anyone have (or can obtain) this information?

They need exact measurements. The overall measurements are posted on several websites, but I'm assuming that's with the feet and I need to know the height if the feet were removed/the height of the feet themselves.

Once the custom rack shelf is made, it will be added to the Middle Atlantic database and be available to everyone!

Thanks for your help.


----------



## woofer

Clark Burk said:


> I don't know....perhaps that *one of the best processors available just got a little bit better* doing certain things.


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> For a top-down masking screen there is a recently added feature to select "Letterbox Bottom" for the Letterbox Zoom feature. When using Auto Aspect this automatically moves the active anamorphic image (any source aspect higher than 16:9) down to the bottom of the projector raster. If not using Auto Aspect, this moves the image to the bottom of the raster when you manually select the source aspect ratio.


Jim, would this also work with a scope screen for (the admittedly limited) content wider than 2.4:1? I'm making (probably finished in the next decade) a masking scope screen, and since I have a spare motor, I had already though of adding a top-down mask for the likes of Bridge on the River Kwai. If not, I wouldn't even add it to your list.


----------



## woofer

FenceMan said:


> What does this tell us about the Lumagen up to now?


It tells me that previously i wouldn't go back to using any other form of Video Processor , and now it tells me there would be *"No Chance in Hell"* i would ever go back to using another Video processor.


----------



## Chicagobear1

woofer said:


> It tells me that previously i wouldn't go back to using any other form of Video Processor , and now it tells me there would be *"No Chance in Hell"* i would ever go back to using another Video processor.


I CONCUR WITH THAT


----------



## gwthacker

woofer said:


> It tells me that previously i wouldn't go back to using any other form of Video Processor , and now it tells me there would be *"No Chance in Hell"* i would ever go back to using another Video processor.


Agreed. Definitely struck me as a glass as half empty question. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DigitalAV

gwthacker said:


> Agreed. Definitely struck me as a glass as half empty question.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It was half full of troll juice


----------



## llang269

DigitalAV said:


> It was half full of troll juice


It definitely was and you see his buddy liked it! Good old drillrod


----------



## kristenmarie

jevansoh said:


> Hello,
> 
> I need some help measuring a Keces P8 power supply. I know this is the Lumagen thread, but I can't find any other thread that talks much about this power supply nor can I find a dedicated thread, so I hope it's ok to post this here.
> 
> I'm ordering a custom Middle Atlantic rack shelf and faceplate for the Keces P8 Power Supply, but since it's not in their database yet, they're asking me for exact dimensions with and without the feet and the exact dimensions the feet add.
> 
> Does anyone have (or can obtain) this information?
> 
> They need exact measurements. The overall measurements are posted on several websites, but I'm assuming that's with the feet and I need to know the height if the feet were removed/the height of the feet themselves.
> 
> Once the custom rack shelf is made, it will be added to the Middle Atlantic database and be available to everyone!
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Hi Jevansoh,

The Keces P8 power supply generates a LOT of heat. I tried putting mine inside my Synergy Chameleon cabinet, and even with a fan above and fan below and positioned on a vented shelf, it was getting too hot for my liking, and dumping too much heat to other components inside. Instead, I decided to place the Keces on top of the cabinet, open to the air, added some height to the feet, and fabricated a small wood diverter which is positioned around an AC Infinity Cloudplate T1-N rackmount fan unit to direct air underneath. The fan runs as speed 2, which is still fairly quiet, and manages to hold the temperature of the Keces P8 at around 94 degrees in a room that stays around 75 degrees in the summertime. 

In any case, the measurements are 300mm wide, 223mm deep, and 66.15mm high (not counting the bottom feet); the feet add another 10mm in height. Note that the front of the Keces P8 is rounded (as shown).


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> For a top-down masking screen there is a recently added feature to select "Letterbox Bottom" for the Letterbox Zoom feature. When using Auto Aspect this automatically moves the active anamorphic image (any source aspect higher than 16:9) down to the bottom of the projector raster. If not using Auto Aspect, this moves the image to the bottom of the raster when you manually select the source aspect ratio.
> 
> You can select this in:
> 
> MENU->Global->Video->Features->LBOX Control. Select "Globally Bottom."
> 
> Remember to Save your changes.
> 
> =====


Jim, I tried to perform this process tonight. Unfortunately, every time that I pressed "OK" after selecting "Globally Bottom" it failed to save that choice and reverted to the default after pressing "OK". I double checked to make sure that my remote wasn't causing the issue by making other random changes on several submenus; each time the new choice remained after pushing the "OK" button.


----------



## woofer

On the subject of LPS......the "Uptone Audio" JS-2 which I use with my 5348 barely gets warm......I leave it on 24/7..


----------



## jrp

dlinsley said:


> Jim, would this also work with a scope screen for (the admittedly limited) content wider than 2.4:1? I'm making (probably finished in the next decade) a masking scope screen, and since I have a spare motor, I had already though of adding a top-down mask for the likes of Bridge on the River Kwai. If not, I wouldn't even add it to your list.


Currently the largest source aspect ratio supported by the Radiance Pro is 2.40. Content with a larger source aspect is treated as 2.40 and so would be moved the same as 2.40. 

We currently do not plan to support higher aspect ratios than 2.40 as separate configuration memory locations, but this is on our "under consideration" list. Adding more source aspect memories would require a significant change to the data structure. While possible we would like to not make such a large change to the data structure as it has other ramifications.

One step short of having new source aspect configuration memories for 1.66, 2.1, and others higher than 2.4 source aspects, is that we are looking to "detect and report" these aspect ratios. This would allow a control system to be informed when one of these occurs and make an appropriate change in the Radiance Pro and to masking.

We have also discussed sharing a configuration between two source aspects. This seems to make sense for 1.66 (share with 16:9 so it is same height on a 16:9 screen and uses other config settings specific to source aspect 16:9), and 2.1 (share with either 2.0, or 2.2). For source aspects >2.40, they would share the source aspect config with 2.4, but the Pro would account for the difference in the active height. This seems like it would work, but we have not figured out the issues doing this (e.g. source cropping on a per aspect basis would also be shared). The advantage of this approach is it would mean the data structure does not need to change much.

As you can see we are interested in supporting more source aspect ratios. However, we are still considering how best to do this.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Jim, I tried to perform this process tonight. Unfortunately, every time that I pressed "OK" after selecting "Globally Bottom" it failed to save that choice and reverted to the default after pressing "OK". I double checked to make sure that my remote wasn't causing the issue caused by making other random changes on several submenus; each time the new choice remained after pushing the "OK" button.


I tried using the Beta 1 release and got same result. Then I realized I have Auto Aspect enabled, and checked there. I was able to go into the Auto Aspect menu and change to Letterbox Zoom = Bottom.

I then turned off Auto Aspect and still could not change the Letterbox Zoom setting in the Global->Video menu. 

I should be able to change this setting whether Auto Aspect is enabled or not, but neither works. So this is a bug. 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> Although I fully realize that you're unlikely to watch much 4:3 content, why are you OK with dark bars on each side of the image on your 16:9 screen, but require (black) top masking for scope content rather than living with dark bars above & below the image? I find that, once I'm engaged in the content, I'm essentially unaware of the dark gray bars which are projected during wide screen movies on my 16:9 screen.


I had a 16:9 screen with my JVC and used the lens shift to drop scope content to the bottom of the screen. I loved it. For some reason the bottom black bar was more noticeable to me compared to the top, I never had a feeling I needed a top mask. I would definitely use the Lumagen "drop to the bottom"-feature if I had one.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I tried using the Beta 1 release and got same result. Then I realized I have Auto Aspect enabled, and checked there. I was able to go into the Auto Aspect menu and change to Letterbox Zoom = Bottom.
> 
> I then turned off Auto Aspect and still could not change the Letterbox Zoom setting in the Global->Video menu.
> 
> I should be able to change this setting whether Auto Aspect is enabled or not, but neither works. So this is a bug.
> 
> Thanks for bringing this to our attention.


I hope that this will be an easy fix and that the next firmware revision (of discovered Beta bugs) will be issued without too much of a delay....


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> Currently the largest source aspect ratio supported by the Radiance Pro is 2.40. Content with a larger source aspect is treated as 2.40 and so would be moved the same as 2.40.
> 
> We currently do not plan to support higher aspect ratios than 2.40 as separate configuration memory locations, but this is on our "under consideration" list. Adding more source aspect memories would require a significant change to the data structure. While possible we would like to not make such a large change to the data structure as it has other ramifications.
> 
> One step short of having new source aspect configuration memories for 1.66, 2.1, and others higher than 2.4 source aspects, is that we are looking to "detect and report" these aspect ratios. This would allow a control system to be informed when one of these occurs and make an appropriate change in the Radiance Pro and to masking.
> 
> We have also discussed sharing a configuration between two source aspects. This seems to make sense for 1.66 (share with 16:9 so it is same height on a 16:9 screen and uses other config settings specific to source aspect 16:9), and 2.1 (share with either 2.0, or 2.2). For source aspects >2.40, they would share the source aspect config with 2.4, but the Pro would account for the difference in the active height. This seems like it would work, but we have not figured out the issues doing this (e.g. source cropping on a per aspect basis would also be shared). The advantage of this approach is it would mean the data structure does not need to change much.
> 
> As you can see we are interested in supporting more source aspect ratios. However, we are still considering how best to do this.


I vote for detect and report to be a NEW control feedback for only aspect ratio reporting and not make a ZQI25 (or longer ZQI24). Debugging those long things can be difficult. There also may start to be control system issues in the length of the feedback (per some feedback I received). Thanks. SJ


----------



## docrog

MDesigns said:


> I had a 16:9 screen with my JVC and used the lens shift to drop scope content to the bottom of the screen. I loved it. For some reason the bottom black bar was more noticeable to me compared to the top, I never had a feeling I needed a top mask. I would definitely use the Lumagen "drop to the bottom"-feature if I had one.


I'm very much looking forward to having the RP move the scope image to the bottom in order to see whether having only 1 full height dark gray bar at the top enhances my viewing experience (compared with half height dark gray bars above and below). I'd prefer to NOT use the JVC lens shift to accomplish this function, as less mechanical wear seems optimal. I'm just not sure whether or not viewing the image at a different (lower) angle will affect the experience when compared with having the scope image centered on the screen (as is currently the case).


----------



## jrp

jrp said:


> I tried using the Beta 1 release and got same result. Then I realized I have Auto Aspect enabled, and checked there. I was able to go into the Auto Aspect menu and change to Letterbox Zoom = Bottom.
> 
> I then turned off Auto Aspect and still could not change the Letterbox Zoom setting in the Global->Video menu.
> 
> I should be able to change this setting whether Auto Aspect is enabled or not, but neither works. So this is a bug.


Update on this:

Turns out the features works as expected. However, the menu is not clear this is an _action command_ to "change all inputs, all input memories, and all input resolutions, configuration bits as selected," and then return to the menu. I had not used this menu since I use Auto Aspect and so did not recall this is a "command to make all the necessary configuration changes" and _not_ to "set a global configuration bit."

So the "bug" is in not being clear how this menu works.

To the best of our knowledge there is no bug in the actual feature for Beta 1, and you can use the menu in Beta 1 to make changes. You just need to know that when you select "Globally Bottom" (or any selection in that menu) that when you press OK software walks through the all configuration memories and sets all the per input, per input memory, per input resolution bits as requested. Then it returns to the menu ready to be commanded to take further action. This state is currently shown as "No Change," which is admittedly confusing.

============

This is a rather complicated situation to handle. We need to make it simple for users to change these settings in one go, rather than having to spend a lot of time changing it for all the different configuration memories. In general people will have one setting, but we have users who have a TV and a 2.40 projector screen and they might need different settings for each. So these cannot be a global override value being stored.

Patrick is changing the menu to make it as clear as we can that the menu is an "action to take immediately" rather than a "global configuration value" being set. Each potential action value will initially show as dashes, similar to what the Output Setup Menu shows when making changes. The command name will be changed to say "Set ..." to emphasize it is an action to be taken immediately on pressing the OK button. After you make a selection(s) and press OK, the Pro will exit the menu and will say "Global settings applied." Note: You can make a change in more than one line item if desired, and then press OK.

If you need to make further changes, you will be able to then reenter the menu.


----------



## MDesigns

docrog said:


> I'm very much looking forward to having the RP move the scope image to the bottom in order to see whether having only 1 full height dark gray bar at the top enhances my viewing experience (compared with half height dark gray bars above and below). I'd prefer to NOT use the JVC lens shift to accomplish this function, as less mechanical wear seems optimal. I'm just not sure whether or not viewing the image at a different (lower) angle will affect the experience when compared with having the scope image centered on the screen (as is currently the case).


Pretty sure you like the lower angle too 👍


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

When I go into the "enhance" menu for sharpness it appears that there is only a global on/off option which isn't changing when I toggle it and save, it still shows "off." I accessed the sharpness popup usingright arrow and tried a few different settings and toggling on/off to see if I could perceive a difference and settled on 3/3 on for 2180p @24hz which I was streaming on my ATV4K for Obi-Wan. I don't see reference to the enhance menu options of global in the manual so i am seeking some clarification on how I should be setting that up.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Update on this:
> 
> Turns out the features works as expected. However, the menu is not clear this is an _action command_ to "change all inputs, all input memories, and all input resolutions, configuration bits as selected," and then return to the menu. I had not used this menu since I use Auto Aspect and so did not recall this is a "command to make all the necessary configuration changes" and _not_ to "set a global configuration bit." So the "bug" is in not being clear how this menu works. You just need to know that when you select "Globally Bottom" (or any selection in that menu) that when you press OK software walks through the all configuration memories and sets all the per input, per input memory, per input resolution bits as requested. Then it returns to the menu ready to be commanded to take further action. This state is currently shown as "No Change," which is admittedly confusing.


Thanks for that update, Jim. You had previously provided a specific "recipe" regarding what order of commands would provide the scope image occupying the bottom rasters of the display. I have only one video source input and would like "globally bottom" to function on each of the 4 memories. Would it be possible for you to again provide a detailed walkthrough to achieve that goal? Your most recent post (above) contains some ambiguity for me. Much appreciated, as always!


----------



## Erod

SJHT said:


> Not sure this helps, but I have a 16:9 screen with top masking. It becomes a 2.35 by following this tech tip (page 3):
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I’ve never done a factory reset.


Yep, figured it out, thanks.

Don't think I could deal with NLS for sports after watching for a bit. Not sure if adjusting the NLS parameters would help, but didn't like it.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks for that update, Jim. You had previously provided a specific "recipe" regarding what order of commands would provide the scope image occupying the bottom raster of the display. I have only one video source input and would like "globally bottom" to function on each of the 4 memories. Would it be possible for you to again provide a detailed walkthrough to achieve that goal? Your most recent post (above) contains some ambiguity for me. Much appreciated, as always!


I think what I posted was clear. So I am not sure what was not clear. I will try again:

You go to Global->Video->Features and select "Globally Bottom" which means _everything_ then press OK and then do a Save. I think it should be clear this means all inputs, all memories, and all input resolutions are changed, and I think i explicitly listed these in at least one of my most recent posts.

If you still are confused, perhaps emailing us at lumagen.com support is the next step. We can set up a phone call which is often the best way to clear up confusion.


----------



## jrp

In a recent post I said Letter Box Control = "Global Top" was a priority, but would _not_ be in the next release. I was wrong. Patrick decided to add it to the next release. I hope you will forgive this error 

The Beta 2 release will have this, a fix for for a bug when using some cases of the left-edge masking, an update to the Global->Video->Features menu wording, and a couple minor bug fixes. The FPGA redesign is complete and Patrick is working on getting a full-speed FPGA synthesis for the the next release.

We should be posting Beta 2 in a few days to a week.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I think what I posted was clear. So I am not sure what was not clear. I will try again:
> 
> You go to Global->Video->Features and select "Globally Bottom" which means _everything_ then press OK and then do a Save. I think it should be clear this means all inputs, all memories, and all input resolutions are changed, and I think i explicitly listed these in at least one of my most recent posts.
> 
> If you still are confused, perhaps emailing us at lumagen.com support is the next step. We can set up a phone call which is often the best way to clear up confusion.


My confusion came about because you seemed to deviate from your original instructions (which you repeated in this recent post). Those instructions are *exactly* what I performed last night and again, *JUST NOW*. I can assure you that as soon as I press OK after selecting "Globally Bottom" under "Letterbox Control" it immediately reverts to "No Change", as I'd previously posted, so there's no way for me to save "Globally Bottom". The other 2 options here (Darbee & Sharpness) perform similarly: making any change followed by OK reverts to "No Change". Selecting options on other submenus perform as expected: the changes remain after pressing OK and are able to be saved in the traditional manner. Everything otherwise works as expected with this update, so I'd be surprised if only one submenu has been corrupted in my download. However, if you feel it's necessary, I'd be happy to reinstall the most recent update tomorrow.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> In a recent post I said Letter Box Control = "Global Top" was a priority, but would _not_ be in the next release. I was wrong. Patrick decided to add it to the next release.


Jim,

For fun tonight, when watching Stranger Things, I used the Input->Shift function to manually move the image up to the top of my 16:9 screen. Is this the moral equivalent of what Global Top will eventually do? Reason I ask: is there any 'danger' in using the Shift function to manually move the image up? Any affect to tone mapping or anything else? My suspicion is no, but I figured I'd ask.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> My confusion came about because you seemed to deviate from your original instructions (which you repeated in this recent post). Those instructions are *exactly* what I performed last night and again, *JUST NOW*. I can assure you that as soon as I press OK after selecting "Globally Bottom" under "Letterbox Control" it immediately reverts to "No Change", as I'd previously posted, so there's no way for me to save "Globally Bottom". The other 2 options here (Darbee & Sharpness) perform similarly: making any change followed by OK reverts to "No Change". Selecting options on other submenus perform as expected: the changes remain after pressing OK and are able to be saved in the traditional manner. Everything otherwise works as expected with this update, so I'd be surprised if only one submenu has been corrupted in my download. However, if you feel it's necessary, I'd be happy to reinstall the most recent update tomorrow.


You missed the part where I said the menu is a "active command that makes changes," that then reverts to nominal state (which says "No Change").

In my previous post I did admit that the menu is not clear in Beta 1. However, I explained to ignore that it goes back to No Change as it is confusing. After you select "Globally Bottom" and then press OK the menu reverts to "No Change" even though the command has changed all the memories to "Letter Box Control Bottom." While the menu is not clear it does make the change.

To prove it to yourself, press MENU->Global->Video->Features, then select "Globally Off" press OK and then do a Save. Then press MENU again and confirm it does _not_ say "Settings have changed since last save." Then to prove the menu is making the changes, go to MENU->Global->Video->Features, then select "Globally Bottom" and then press OK (only). Then you will see the menu changes and says "Settings have changed since last save." This is because the command to change everything to Letter Box Control Bottom was executed. I just now again confirmed this works.

Patrick already has improved the reporting for this menu as I described in my last post.

You do not need to reload the software. It is working as expected. You just need to think this through and not expect the menu to act like the other menus you mention since it is a command to take action and _not_ a "set a Global Configuration Value" menu.


----------



## jrp

fatherom said:


> Jim,
> 
> For fun tonight, when watching Stranger Things, I used the Input->Shift function to manually move the image up to the top of my 16:9 screen. Is this the moral equivalent of what Global Top will eventually do? Reason I ask: is there any 'danger' in using the Shift function to manually move the image up? Any affect to tone mapping or anything else? My suspicion is no, but I figured I'd ask.


Using the input shift up to top is how you would program a "Letter Box Control Top." The rub is you need to manually adjust every source aspect, for every source resolution. Then after making the changes, you would need to copy the active input and input memory to all inputs and all input memories.

If you completed these tasks correctly, you would have the exact equivalent of the upcoming "Letter Box Control Top" feature (assuming Letter Box Control = Off). I have helped a customer do exactly this for a bottom up masking screen. I do not want to have to walk anyone else through this in the future since it takes a while to accomplish. There is no "danger" doing it this way. Everything still works, it is just the image is at the top of the active raster.

The new "Letter Box Control Top" makes this easy to do and easy to get right.

No matter what you do Save your changes if you want them to be permanent.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> To prove it to yourself, press MENU->Global->Video->Features, then select "Globally Off" press OK and then do a Save. Then press MENU again and confirm it does _not_ say "Settings have changed since last save." Then to prove the menu is making the changes, go to MENU->Global->Video->Features, then select "Globally Bottom" and then press OK (only). Then you will see the menu changes and says "Settings have changed since last save." This is because the command to change everything to Letter Box Control Bottom was executed. I just now again confirmed this works.


Jim, that is the precise sequence that I'd performed (multiple times) on 2 separate previous occasions, as well as again this morning. I can assure you that the typical prompt "Settings have changed since last save" *NEVER* appeared after I pushed OK following selecting "Globally Bottom". FWIW, the image never repositioned itself after selecting "Globally Bottom" and pushing OK. Typically, making a change to submenus selections will be immediately reflected on the display after pressing OK (at which time the prompt regarding saving changes will appear). Despite the lack of that message, I still performed a save sequence but the scope image remained in the center of my display. Again, the "Src Format" and "709 CMS Mode" submenus under Global -> Video can be changed and saved (as expected) but the "Features" submenu reverts to "No Change" and *CANNOT* be saved as "Globally Bottom" or the other options there.


----------



## HD-Dave

HD-Dave said:


> Sorry to rain on the parade but updated to beta 050722 and find that all my 18Ghz inputs bar one, Oppo clone are in "black & white". (looks like when in the days of component connection the cable where connected incorrectly) The 9Ghz inputs are are blurred/out of focus and any text shows jaggies. Switching inputs creates massive sync issues
> Outputting @ 9Ghz 4k60
> reverting back to 090121 cures all ills as calibrated by Gordon
> 
> my 18Ghz inputs are SkyQ at 4k10bit , and a number of 4k media players as well as the oppo clone
> 
> Anyone else found issues such as these


After posting this and contacting Lumagen support I was supplied with a firmware which resolved 99% of the issues. Still seems to be a sync stability issue which is compounded by the fact that I have a JVC projector.
But thanks to Jim and Patrick for resolving this in less than 36 hours.
Stupendous service


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> If not using Auto Aspect, this moves the image to the bottom of the raster when you manually select the source aspect ratio.





docrog said:


> FWIW, the image never repositioned itself after selecting "Globally Bottom" and pushing OK.


@docrog did you manually select the source aspect ratio after turning "Globally Bottom" on?


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> @docrog did you manually select the source aspect ratio after turning "Globally Bottom" on?


Groundhog Day, anyone? Selecting "Globally Bottom" *DOES NOT STICK* once OK is pressed; it always returns to "No Change". I just tried manually changing source aspect from 1.78 to 2.35 in "STYLES" *BOTH* before and after attempting to enable "Globally Bottom", but that makes no difference (the scope image stays centered on my display). All my source content is set to output at 1.78. It makes* NO* difference whether Auto Aspect is "ON" or "OFF" or whether it's set to HDMI or HDMI + Frame. Nothing that I've tried allows "Globally Bottom" to stick after pressing OK. I'd be happy to try any walkthrough that you, Jim or any other poster might suggest. FWIW, this is turning out to be an awfully time consuming exercise in trying to achieve a result that may not be worth the effort.........


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Groundhog Day, anyone? Selecting "Globally Bottom" *DOES NOT STICK* once OK is pressed; it always returns to "No Change". I just tried manually changing source aspect from 1.78 to 2.35 in "STYLES" *BOTH* before and after attempting to enable "Globally Bottom", but that makes no difference (the scope image stays centered on my display). All my source content is set to output at 1.78. It makes* NO* difference whether Auto Aspect is "ON" or "OFF" or whether it's set to HDMI or HDMI + Frame. Nothing that I've tried allows "Globally Bottom" to stick after pressing OK. I'd be happy to try any walkthrough that you, Jim or any other poster might suggest. FWIW, this is turning out to be an awfully time consuming exercise in trying to achieve a result that may not be worth the effort.........


You need to relax. You mentioned doing the global setting but you didn’t mention whether or not you manually selected the aspect ratio after doing so.

I was just trying to help based on the info you’d posted thus far.


----------



## Kris Deering

docrog said:


> Groundhog Day, anyone? Selecting "Globally Bottom" *DOES NOT STICK* once OK is pressed; it always returns to "No Change". I just tried manually changing source aspect from 1.78 to 2.35 in "STYLES" *BOTH* before and after attempting to enable "Globally Bottom", but that makes no difference (the scope image stays centered on my display). All my source content is set to output at 1.78. It makes* NO* difference whether Auto Aspect is "ON" or "OFF" or whether it's set to HDMI or HDMI + Frame. Nothing that I've tried allows "Globally Bottom" to stick after pressing OK. I'd be happy to try any walkthrough that you, Jim or any other poster might suggest. FWIW, this is turning out to be an awfully time consuming exercise in trying to achieve a result that may not be worth the effort.........


Not sure what is going on in your situation but I tested this and it worked just fine. I agree that after you select GLOBAL BOTTOM the menu still reports NO CHANGE, but it did change the settings for all the inputs and would move the image. I even confirmed that it changes the ZOOM setting in the auto aspect settings if you have them on. I did catch a bug that if you have the output aspect set to scope it not only shifts the image down but applies zoom, so that will be addressed in a future update, but this isn't a feature that is intended for those with a scope screen. But at least in my testing it worked fine for 16x9 when you just want the image to be at the bottom.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Would it be correct to say that the sharpening adjustment (right arrow during playback) is a global setting?


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> Would it be correct to say that the sharpening adjustment (right arrow during playback) is a global setting?


No.

The sharpness controls [EDIT] can be a per-input, per-input-memory, per-input-resolution setting. This is because you may want the settings to be specific to a particular source, and source resolution, and you might also have several setups (e.g. sports, movies).

[EDIT] At defaults these affect all inputs and all input memories due to the use of input memory "indirection."

After you make a change to Sharpness press OK to accept, and then if you want the change to be permanent Save your changes.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> You need to relax. You mentioned doing the global setting but you didn’t mention whether or not you manually selected the aspect ratio after doing so. I was just trying to help based on the info you’d posted thus far.


Trust me, I'm relaxed, but frustrated. FWIW, I've always appreciated input provided by you, Jim and Kris (among others). It's just not clicking for me with regards to what you mean by "whether or not you manually selected the (source) aspect ratio after doing so". Would you please explain what you'd like me to accomplish and in what menu/submenu you want me to confirm that choice? As far as I can tell, I've repeatedly precisely followed Jim's specific instructions which, initially, did not involve the need to access any additional screens beyond "Video Features" ("Globally Bottom"). As noted previously, I only have 1 video source,1 output AR (16:9) for all input source AR, and only make use of 1 memory on the remote. My output aspect is NOT set to either "zoom" or "scope" (per Kris D. post). To date, the image has never moved from its central position and I have never been prompted to make a "save".


----------



## docrog

Kris Deering said:


> Not sure what is going on in your situation but I tested this and it worked just fine. I agree that after you select GLOBAL BOTTOM the menu still reports NO CHANGE, but it did change the settings for all the inputs and would move the image. I even confirmed that it changes the ZOOM setting in the auto aspect settings if you have them on. I did catch a bug that if you have the output aspect set to scope it not only shifts the image down but applies zoom, so that will be addressed in a future update, but this isn't a feature that is intended for those with a scope screen. But at least in my testing it worked fine for 16x9 when you just want the image to be at the bottom.


Nothing has changed for me after selecting Globally Bottom. There are no zoom or scope settings in my configuration. So, unfortunately, neither of us are sure what's going on in my situation, but I'm always game for additional suggestions.......


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Nothing has changed for me after selecting Globally Bottom. There are no zoom or scope settings in my configuration. So, neither of us are sure what's going on in my situation.......


You might try a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) and then select Letter Box Control Globally bottom and press okay (noting it would then say No Change again). Then start a 2.40 movie. This is of course assuming you have not already tried this. 

If you do not do a Save you get back to your Saved settings by going to Standby and back on.

Might be best to contact us at lumagen.com support. We can set up a phone call to see why you are having different results than Patrick, Kris and myself.


----------



## Kris Deering

jrp said:


> No.
> 
> The sharpness controls are a per-input, per-input-memory, per-input-resolution setting. This is because you may want the settings to be specific to a particular source, and source resolution, and you might also have several setups (e.g. sports, movies).
> 
> If you want to have these affect all inputs and all input memories you can use the input copy command to copy to other inputs.
> 
> After you make a change to Sharpness press OK to accept, and then if you want the change to be permanent Save your changes.


I don’t think this is true. They are resolution independent but not input/memory independent that I can tell. If I change a setting on input 1, it applies to other inputs from the right arrow menu.


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t think this is true. They are resolution independent but not input/memory independent that I can tell. If I change a setting on input 1, it applies to other inputs from the right arrow menu.


Kris points out correctly that at default all inputs use the same input memory for each resolution. I have to keep reminding myself of this "indirection" and forgot about it when I posted.

So while you need to set for each input resolution, since all inputs and input memories point to the same input configuration ( on a per-input resolution basis), this would then be applied to all inputs and input memories for that resolution.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> You might try a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) and then select* Letter Box Control Globally* bottom and press okay (noting it would then say No Change again). Then start a 2.40 movie. This is of course assuming you have not already tried this.
> 
> If you do not do a Save you get back to your Saved settings by going to Standby and back on.
> 
> Might be best to contact us at lumagen.com support. We can set up a phone call to see why you are having different results than Patrick, Kris and myself.


Thanks for those additional suggestions, Jim. Please be aware that my RP is never in the standby state. Its power is routed via a trigger from the AVR, and, therefore, without power when the AVR is in the standby state. I felt comfortable with this power management solution based on prior postings on this forum in which it had been stated that there was no potential harm to the RP being regularly powered down as opposed to be placed in standby. I don't know whether this configuration would be applicable for the temporary factory reset that you've just suggested.


----------



## bartl007

docrog said:


> Thanks for those additional suggestions, Jim. Please be aware that my RP is never in the standby state. Its power is routed via a trigger from the AVR, and, therefore, without power when the AVR is in the standby state. I felt comfortable with this power management solution based on prior postings on this forum in which it had been stated that there was no potential harm to the RP being regularly powered down as opposed to be placed in standby. I don't know whether this configuration would be applicable for the temporary factory reset that you've just suggested.


FWIW, you're not alone. I seem to be experiencing the same issue in my experimenting with my 4242 (I'm on alpha 5 firmware and haven't had a chance to upgrade to the latest beta release yet). Running a 16:9 fixed screen with a single input to the radiance and a single output (my AVR does the switching). 

Having similar issues where changes to the "letterbox control globally bottom" have no effect when saving changes and watching a 2.4:1 movie. Still getting black bars top and bottom


----------



## jrp

bartl007 said:


> FWIW, you're not alone. I seem to be experiencing the same issue in my experimenting with my 4242 (I'm on alpha 5 firmware and haven't had a chance to upgrade to the latest beta release yet). Running a 16:9 fixed screen with a single input to the radiance and a single output (my AVR does the switching).
> 
> Having similar issues where changes to the "letterbox control globally bottom" have no effect when saving changes and watching a 2.4:1 movie. Still getting black bars top and bottom


You need to first load Beta 1 from the website and then test the Letter Box Bottom feature again.

I checked the Letter Box Bottom feature again, including saving it and the powering down and back on again. Works just like it is supposed to here.

As I mentioned to docroc, you should try a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) and then select Letter Box Control Globally bottom and press okay (noting it would then say No Change again). Then start a 2.40 movie. This is of course assuming you have not already tried this. See if Letter Box Bottom then works. This is a software controlled feature so it really must work the way it does here (which is correctly) after a factory reset.

After the temporary factory reset, if you do not do a Save, you get back to your Saved settings by going to Standby and back on.

If it does work after the temporary factory reset, then we will ask you to download your configuration and send it to us since your issue would be configuration related.

Might be best to contact us at lumagen.com support. We can set up a phone call to see why you are having different results than Patrick, Kris and myself.


----------



## Erod

I got it to work, but I first had to go into another menu and turn auto aspect on, and then turn letterbox on below it. Then I went back to global and turned on letterbox bottom. That did the trick.


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> I got it to work, but I first had to go into another menu and turn auto aspect on, and then turn letterbox on below it. Then I went back to global and turned on letterbox bottom. That did the trick.


Thanks for posting. You helped me figure out the "pilot error" for the Letter Box Bottom "not working" for a few people.

With Auto Aspect Off, _you_ are responsible for selecting the aspect ratio of the source! This is no different than before the Letter Box Bottom feature was added. It's just that depending on how you had anamorphic source displayed you may not have had to select a different source aspect ratio for your 16:9 screen.

For your 16:9 screen you did not select 2.35 (or whatever the anamorphic aspect was) manually and so the source aspect remained selected at the default 16:9. In this case with Letter Box Bottom the Pro does what it should and believes the source is 16:9. Since, for 16:9 content there is no vertical shift with Letter Box Bottom, the Pro did exactly what it should have and did not vertically shift the image.

I think this solves the mystery of why it was "not working" for a couple people. If you are one of these people, and want to leave Auto Aspect to be Off, please try again. However, this time select the appropriate source aspect manually using the Lumagen remote. With Letter Box Bottom active you will then see the anamorphic source shift down.

[EDIT] Selecting Letter Box Bottom in the Global->Video->Features menu also selects Letter Box Bottom in the Auto Aspect menu. Save your changes.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> With Auto Aspect Off, _you_ are responsible for selecting the aspect ratio of the source!


You had mentioned this in your original post several days ago, and I asked docrog if he had done this.

FYI: @docrog


----------



## bartl007

jrp said:


> Thanks for posting. You helped me figure out the "pilot error" for the Letter Box Bottom "not working" for a few people.
> 
> With Auto Aspect Off, _you_ are responsible for selecting the aspect ratio of the source! This is no different than before the Letter Box Bottom feature was added. It's just that depending on how you had anamorphic source displayed you may not have had to select a different source aspect ratio for your 16:9 screen.
> 
> For your 16:9 screen you did not select 2.35 (or whatever the anamorphic aspect was) manually and so the source aspect remained selected at the default 16:9. In this case with Letter Box Bottom the Pro does what it should and believes the source is 16:9. Since, for 16:9 content there is no vertical shift with Letter Box Bottom, the Pro did exactly what it should have and did not vertically shift the image.
> 
> I think this solves the mystery of why it was "not working" for a couple people. If you are one of these people, and want to leave Auto Aspect to be Off, please try again. However, this time select the appropriate source aspect manually using the Lumagen remote. With Letter Box Bottom active you will then see the anamorphic source shift down.
> 
> [EDIT] Selecting Letter Box Bottom in the Global->Video->Features menu also selects Letter Box Bottom in the Auto Aspect menu. Save your changes.


This did the trick and I think other users should have no issues once auto aspect is set to on.

Thanks!


----------



## fatherom

bartl007 said:


> This did the trick and I think other users should have no issues once auto aspect is set to on.
> 
> Thanks!


But the whole point of the post was describe how to do it when auto aspect is off. I, for one, don’t want auto aspect on.


----------



## MDesigns

fatherom said:


> But the whole point of the post was describe how to do it when auto aspect is off. I, for one, don’t want auto aspect on.


Why would anyone want to manually select the aspect? IMO auto aspect is one of the nicest features of video processors.


----------



## fatherom

MDesigns said:


> Why would anyone want to manually select the aspect? IMO auto aspect is one of the nicest features of video processors.


Well clearly Jim’s instructions in the most recent post are geared towards those who have auto aspect set to off. 

I personally don’t use it because I have a 16:9 screen and most of the time I don’t manipulate the image based on aspect ratio. So I would use this “letterbox bottom” feature sporadically and randomly.


----------



## bartl007

fatherom said:


> But the whole point of the post was describe how to do it when auto aspect is off. I, for one, don’t want auto aspect on.


I agree it would be nice to have a quick toggle button to do it for 2.35 and 2.4:1 content. I find that 2.0:1 content like stranger things on Netflix and IMAX enhanced content on Disney plus looks better natively on a 16:9 screen with a sliver of black bar on the top and bottom. I hardly even notice the black bars compared to native 16:9 content.


----------



## fatherom

bartl007 said:


> I agree it would be nice to have a quick toggle button to do it for 2.35 and 2.4:1 content. I find that 2.0:1 content like stranger things on Netflix and IMAX enhanced content on Disney plus looks better natively on a 16:9 screen with a sliver of black bar on the top and bottom. I hardly even notice the black bars compared to native 16:9 content.


There is. Jim just described it in the post you quoted. You turn the global bottom setting to on, and then when you want to use it, press the aspect ratio button for the kind of content you’re watching. 

This is all with auto aspect off, of course.


----------



## docrog

I was finally successful in achieving "globally bottom" on my 16:9 display, only to have it play havoc with the subtitles while streaming my UHD digital copy of "Nobody" (scope AR) via Vudu on my Roku Ultra. Because of the inconsistent location of the subtitles, they occasionally were partially unreadable when they projected below the image and when they were appeared beyond the top of the image the whole image briefly returned to the center of the screen (as though there was an actual change in the film's AR) and then returned to the bottom when those subtitles weren't present. Obviously this is not an acceptable situation and I welcome any suggestions to have the scope image firmly "locked" at the bottom of the display while still being able to make use of subtitles. I don't think this issue would be any better resolved by "globally top", as any subtitles placed partially outside the scope image's boundaries would likely either be unreadable or cause the same temporary "bouncing around" of the image's location.


----------



## jevansoh

kristenmarie said:


> Hi Jevansoh,
> 
> The Keces P8 power supply generates a LOT of heat. I tried putting mine inside my Synergy Chameleon cabinet, and even with a fan above and fan below and positioned on a vented shelf, it was getting too hot for my liking, and dumping too much heat to other components inside. Instead, I decided to place the Keces on top of the cabinet, open to the air, added some height to the feet, and fabricated a small wood diverter which is positioned around an AC Infinity Cloudplate T1-N rackmount fan unit to direct air underneath. The fan runs as speed 2, which is still fairly quiet, and manages to hold the temperature of the Keces P8 at around 94 degrees in a room that stays around 75 degrees in the summertime.
> 
> In any case, the measurements are 300mm wide, 223mm deep, and 66.15mm high (not counting the bottom feet); the feet add another 10mm in height. Note that the front of the Keces P8 is rounded (as shown).
> 
> View attachment 3288606


I just wanted to say thank you for providing me with this info and your tips. I will absolutely heed to your warnings about the heat.

Thanks again.


----------



## jevansoh

I just noticed something.

I was looking on Keces website to see where the vents were so I could decide how best to cool it and it appears there are none!

It doesn't show a picture of the bottom, though. Can you let me know if there are vents on the bottom (or anywhere else) please?

Also, I just happened to see the measurements Keces provides on their website.

According to them, they are: 300x220x66mm 

I would assume that 66mm height would include the feet since the feet aren't something that are added on by the end user.

Would you please double check your height measurements both with and without the feet for me?

I hate to ask, but these custom shelves are costing me about $200 each and I just want to be sure of the measurements before spending that kind of money on a shelf/faceplate.

Much appreciated!

--J



kristenmarie said:


> Hi Jevansoh,
> 
> The Keces P8 power supply generates a LOT of heat. I tried putting mine inside my Synergy Chameleon cabinet, and even with a fan above and fan below and positioned on a vented shelf, it was getting too hot for my liking, and dumping too much heat to other components inside. Instead, I decided to place the Keces on top of the cabinet, open to the air, added some height to the feet, and fabricated a small wood diverter which is positioned around an AC Infinity Cloudplate T1-N rackmount fan unit to direct air underneath. The fan runs as speed 2, which is still fairly quiet, and manages to hold the temperature of the Keces P8 at around 94 degrees in a room that stays around 75 degrees in the summertime.
> 
> In any case, the measurements are 300mm wide, 223mm deep, and 66.15mm high (not counting the bottom feet); the feet add another 10mm in height. Note that the front of the Keces P8 is rounded (as shown).
> 
> View attachment 3288606


----------



## aguy

MDesigns said:


> Why would anyone want to manually select the aspect? IMO auto aspect is one of the nicest features of video processors.


I for one use my crestron control system to control aspect ratio and so therefore I don’t use auto aspect. 

I store the desired aspect ratio for each movie in my collection as metadata which crestron uses to set the aspect ratio in the lumagen as well as move the masking panels. 

This is seemless and quicker than using auto aspect. 

There is one case use for not using auto aspect. I’m sure there are others. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> I was finally successful in achieving "globally bottom" on my 16:9 display


What was the issue you were having earlier getting it to work, and what did you ultimately do to get it to work? (curious)


----------



## Mike_WI

jevansoh said:


> I just noticed something.
> 
> I was looking on Keces website to see where the vents were so I could decide how best to cool it and it appears there are none!
> 
> It doesn't show a picture of the bottom, though. Can you let me know if there are vents on the bottom (or anywhere else) please?
> 
> Also, I just happened to see the measurements Keces provides on their website.
> 
> According to them, they are: 300x220x66mm
> 
> I would assume that 66mm height would include the feet since the feet aren't something that are added on by the end user.
> 
> Would you please double check your height measurements both with and without the feet for me?
> 
> I hate to ask, but these custom shelves are costing me about $200 each and I just want to be sure of the measurements before spending that kind of money on a shelf/faceplate.
> 
> Much appreciated!
> 
> --J


In my experience with MA custom shelves they either have previously made the shelf -- eg for a common component (eg Oppo BR players) -- or you send in the component for them to custom make it.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> What was the issue you were having earlier getting it to work, and what did you ultimately do to get it to work? (curious)


I did a save after selecting "auto aspect" and "letterbox bottom" then selected "globally bottom" and saved again (despite it having reverted to "no change" after pressing OK). As I previously posted, it's not tolerable for content which overlays subtitles slightly beyond the confines of the scope image since the RP apparently extrapolates these events to a change in AR and momentarily repositions the image before returning to the bottom location. It felt like I was on the "Mad Hatter's Tea Cups" ride at Disney.........


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> I did a save after selecting "auto aspect" and "letterbox bottom" then selected "globally bottom" and saved again (despite it having reverted to "no change" after pressing OK). As I just mentioned, it's not tolerable for content which overlays subtitles slightly beyond the confines of the scope image since the RP apparently extrapolates these events to a change in AR and momentarily repositions the image before returning to the bottom location. It felt like I was on the "Mad Hatter's Tea Cups" ride at Disney.........


I would turn Auto Aspect to "off" so the Lumagen won't jump around when seeing subtitles outside the confines of the scope image. Then, when watching content, manually select the aspect ratio of the content you're watching with the Lumagen remote.


----------



## Naiera

Henlo, frens.

I'm trying to set my Pro 4442 up and these menus are much more advanced that I'm used to on the XD and the 2123 😅

What I want, at least I thought it was, is very simple: Every input is converted to 2160p SDR BT.2020 at its native refresh rate. Is it possible to do this without having to switch styles, or whatever it's called? 

I need everything going into the Sony 270ES projector to be the same resolution and colour space. I figured the Pro would be able to convert the old-time colour spaces to 2020 with no issue, but I can't seem to suss out these new menus.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> I would turn Auto Aspect to "off" so the Lumagen won't jump around when seeing subtitles outside the confines of the scope image. Then, when watching content, manually select the aspect ratio of the content you're watching with the Lumagen remote.


I'm not sure how that would help being able to read subtitles which project below the image (globally bottom) or above the top (projected future option of globally top).


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> I'm not sure how that would help being able to read subtitles which project below the image (globally bottom) or above the top (projected future option of globally top).


I was only trying to address the image jumping around. Obviously, if subtitles go beyond the image area, you wouldn't want to use Global Bottom (or top) at all.


----------



## Geof

docrog said:


> I'm not sure how that would help being able to read subtitles which project below the image (globally bottom) or above the top (projected future option of globally top).


Having subtitles below the image area is nice in several ways. First off it does not obscure the image in any way. If you have folks who need subtitles (me) along with folks that don't, the folks that don't need them find them extremely annoying (at least in this household). Putting them below the active image area mitigates this to a some extent. Plus this means there is a consistent background and which does aid in speed reading (for me at least).


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> I'm trying to set my Pro 4442 up and these menus are much more advanced that I'm used to on the XD and the 2123 😅
> 
> What I want, at least I thought it was, is very simple: Every input is converted to 2160p SDR BT.2020 at its native refresh rate. Is it possible to do this without having to switch styles, or whatever it's called?
> 
> I need everything going into the Sony 270ES projector to be the same resolution and colour space. I figured the Pro would be able to convert the old-time colour spaces to 2020 with no issue, but I can't seem to suss out these new menus.


This is typically what we recommend to do and is straight forward.

To select 9 GHz out, enter MENU 0873, to select 18 GHz out, enter MENU 0874. These allows 50 or 60 Hertz output with the output resolution set to 3840x2160.

To add 24 Hertz and keep the output at 3840x2160, enter MENU 0872. Or to add 24 Hertz output can set output to 4096x2160, enter MENU 0877.

The above commands are listed in the back of the Radiance Pro manual you can download from our support/manuals page.

To have everything output as SDR Gamma 2.4 Rec 2020, change MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS0->Colorspace->Colorspace = SDR 2020, and press OK. Then in MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1->Colorspace->Colorspace = SDR 2020, and press OK. Once these two steps are completed all content from SD up to UHD HDR will output as SDR Gamma 2.4 Rec 2020.

No need to changes styles if you set up as above.

After you complete your changes make sure to do a Save.

The above is in the setup slide set, and more information is in the manual. I have attached the setup slide set for reference.


----------



## Naiera

Thank you.

RTFM, I know, but it was just further confusing me earlier today 😅


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> In a recent post I said Letter Box Control = "Global Top" was a priority, but would _not_ be in the next release. I was wrong. Patrick decided to add it to the next release. I hope you will forgive this error
> 
> The Beta 2 release will have this, a fix for for a bug when using some cases of the left-edge masking, an update to the Global->Video->Features menu wording, and a couple minor bug fixes. The FPGA redesign is complete and Patrick is working on getting a full-speed FPGA synthesis for the the next release.
> 
> We should be posting Beta 2 in a few days to a week.


Jim,

Apologies if this was answered previously but what is the difference between a version with "full-speed FPGA synthesis" and a version that is not?

Thank you


----------



## MDesigns

fatherom said:


> I would turn Auto Aspect to "off" so the Lumagen won't jump around when seeing subtitles outside the confines of the scope image. Then, when watching content, manually select the aspect ratio of the content you're watching with the Lumagen remote.





docrog said:


> I'm not sure how that would help being able to read subtitles which project below the image (globally bottom) or above the top (projected future option of globally top).





fatherom said:


> I was only trying to address the image jumping around. Obviously, if subtitles go beyond the image area, you wouldn't want to use Global Bottom (or top) at all.


I guess you had a point with the no auto aspect there. My memories were from using jvc lens shift and that was of course manual, but it would have been nice to be automatic if it just worked without hickups.

How about choosing manually a slightly narrower aspect, like 2.2:1? Would it leave enough margin for the subs, or is it almost the same to just use the 16:9 setting then...


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> Jim,
> 
> Apologies if this was answered previously but what is the difference between a version with "full-speed FPGA synthesis" and a version that is not?


If the FPGA synthesis is "full speed" we expect it to work on all Radiance Pro units. If we release an FPGA with a "not at full speed synthesis" we expect it to work on almost all Radiance Pro units.

If a "not at full speed synthesis" works on a unit it will work exactly like a full speed synthesis does. There would be no functional difference for that unit.

==== 

There is a reasonable variance in speed between FPGAs due to process variations. This makes every FPGA slightly different. The synthesis tools knows what can vary, and by how much. It works to generate a synthesis and layout that will work over these variations. Our timing runs are for worst case process, worst case supply voltage (lower is worse, higher is faster), and 84C worst case die temperature.

Working in our favor is we only buy a fast speed grade. This limits the process variation, but there is still some. We keep the FPGA core voltage near the maximum allowed, which keeps the FPGA speed on the fast end of the voltage variation effects. Also working in our favor is we keep the FPGA die temperature below 84C and a cooler FPGA is a (slightly) faster FPGA. 

Reiterating what I discussed in a post a couple weeks ago is: If you can run the Radiance Pro fan faster, and not be bothered by the increased noise, I recommend you do so. A lower temperature means the FPGA runs a bit faster as noted above. However, in addition, a lower temperature means the FPGA will have a longer life, on average. In that post I noted that I researched this and found that a 15C reduction in chip temperature on average doubles the life of an integrated circuit. One owner was able to reduce the FPGA temperature in his system by 18C by setting the minimum fan speed to 10 (up from the default of 2). So if the Radiance Pro is in a cabinet, or another room, I suggest setting the minimum fan speed to 10. It will still not be too loud and will still be a lot quieter than most other gear with a fan or fans. Even a few degrees cooler is of some help in the lifetime of the FPGA.

The fan control is in MENU->Other->Fan Control. Raise the Minimum Fan Speed until you can hear it at viewing positions. The back down one or two clicks. Then press OK and then Save. Note that as you raise the minimum the fan speed, it speeds up right away. As you lower the minimum the fan speed, the Fan Controller allows some time before it slows the fan speed to avoid constant changes.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> If the FPGA synthesis is "full speed" we expect it to work on all Radiance Pro units. If we release an FPGA with a "not at full speed synthesis" we expect it to work on almost all Radiance Pro units.
> 
> If a "not at full speed synthesis" works on a unit it will work exactly like a full speed synthesis does. There would be no functional difference for that unit.
> 
> ====
> 
> There is a reasonable variance in speed between FPGAs due to process variations. This makes every FPGA slightly different. The synthesis tools knows what can vary, and by how much. It works to generate a synthesis and layout that will work over these variations. Our timing runs are for worst case process, worst case supply voltage (lower is worse, higher is faster), and 84C worst case die temperature.
> 
> Working in our favor is we only buy a fast speed grade. This limits the process variation, but there is still some. We keep the FPGA core voltage near the maximum allowed, which keeps the FPGA speed on the fast end of the voltage variation effects. Also working in our favor is we keep the FPGA die temperature below 84C and a cooler FPGA is a (slightly) faster FPGA.
> 
> Reiterating what I discussed in a post a couple weeks ago is: If you can run the Radiance Pro fan faster, and not be bothered by the increased noise, I recommend you do so. A lower temperature means the FPGA runs a bit faster as noted above. However, in addition, a lower temperature means the FPGA will have a longer life, on average. In that post I noted that I researched this and found that a 15C reduction in chip temperature on average doubles the life of an integrated circuit. One owner was able to reduce the FPGA temperature in his system by 18C by setting the minimum fan speed to 10 (up from the default of 2). So if the Radiance Pro is in a cabinet, or another room, I suggest setting the minimum fan speed to 10. It will still not be too loud and will still be a lot quieter than most other gear with a fan or fans. Even a few degrees cooler is of some help in the lifetime of the FPGA.
> 
> The fan control is in MENU->Other->Fan Control. Raise the Minimum Fan Speed until you can hear it at viewing positions. The back down one or two clicks. Then press OK and then Save. Note that as you raise the minimum the fan speed, it speeds up right away. As you lower the minimum the fan speed, the Fan Controller allows some time before it slows the fan speed to avoid constant changes.


Thank you Jim. Really appreciate the fast and complete answer. My unit is working with the Beta 1 and the image is better than ever. Great job on the pipeline redesign.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> If the FPGA synthesis is "full speed" we expect it to work on all Radiance Pro units. If we release an FPGA with a "not at full speed synthesis" we expect it to work on almost all Radiance Pro units.
> 
> If a "not at full speed synthesis" works on a unit it will work exactly like a full speed synthesis does. There would be no functional difference for that unit.
> 
> ====
> 
> There is a reasonable variance in speed between FPGAs due to process variations. This makes every FPGA slightly different. The synthesis tools knows what can vary, and by how much. It works to generate a synthesis and layout that will work over these variations. Our timing runs are for worst case process, worst case supply voltage (lower is worse, higher is faster), and 84C worst case die temperature.
> 
> Working in our favor is we only buy a fast speed grade. This limits the process variation, but there is still some. We keep the FPGA core voltage near the maximum allowed, which keeps the FPGA speed on the fast end of the voltage variation effects. Also working in our favor is we keep the FPGA die temperature below 84C and a cooler FPGA is a (slightly) faster FPGA.
> 
> Reiterating what I discussed in a post a couple weeks ago is: If you can run the Radiance Pro fan faster, and not be bothered by the increased noise, I recommend you do so. A lower temperature means the FPGA runs a bit faster as noted above. However, in addition, a lower temperature means the FPGA will have a longer life, on average. In that post I noted that I researched this and found that a 15C reduction in chip temperature on average doubles the life of an integrated circuit. One owner was able to reduce the FPGA temperature in his system by 18C by setting the minimum fan speed to 10 (up from the default of 2). So if the Radiance Pro is in a cabinet, or another room, I suggest setting the minimum fan speed to 10. It will still not be too loud and will still be a lot quieter than most other gear with a fan or fans. Even a few degrees cooler is of some help in the lifetime of the FPGA.
> 
> The fan control is in MENU->Other->Fan Control. Raise the Minimum Fan Speed until you can hear it at viewing positions. The back down one or two clicks. Then press OK and then Save. Note that as you raise the minimum the fan speed, it speeds up right away. As you lower the minimum the fan speed, the Fan Controller allows some time before it slows the fan speed to avoid constant changes.


If the unit is in another room (noise therefore makes no difference), what is the recommended setting? Max? Thanks.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> If the unit is in another room (noise therefore makes no difference), what is the recommended setting? Max? Thanks.


Yes.

If you cannot hear the unit because it is in another room set the Minimum Fan Speed to 10 which is the maximum, press OK to accept, and then do a Save.


----------



## Kris Deering

For those with the global bottom thing and subtitles out of the frame. When you select the aspect (say 2.35) if you know there are subtitles you can use the new subtitle zoom feature if your arrow buttons are set for zoom. Once you’ve selected the aspect, press the arrow buttons and there will be modes for subtitles that should help.


----------



## jrp

Kris Deering said:


> For those with the global bottom thing and subtitles out of the frame. When you select the aspect (say 2.35) if you know there are subtitles you can use the new subtitle zoom feature if your arrow buttons are set for zoom. Once you’ve selected the aspect, press the arrow buttons and there will be modes for subtitles that should help.


Kris is correct, but only after we fix this. I just checked the the subtitle "arrow down to show subtitles" is not currently working with Letter Box Bottom.

An oversight we will fix shortly.


----------



## docrog

Geof said:


> Having subtitles below the image area is nice in several ways. First off it does not obscure the image in any way. If you have folks who need subtitles (me) along with folks that don't, the folks that don't need them find them extremely annoying (at least in this household). Putting them below the active image area mitigates this to a some extent. Plus this means there is a consistent background and which does aid in speed reading (for me at least).


While that may be true if the subtitles were fully outside the content, but in the case I mentioned, they were partially in & partially out (only a portion of the text located intermittently below or above the image).


----------



## Naiera

Testing it out today I learned that the fan noise when it's doing a lot of work is not going to work out for me; what kind of external fans have you guys used to keep the internal one from going mad? It seemed to be set to five, but it's not something I spent too much time on. I don't have space above the unit (it's one of the big ones), but I can easily fit a fan behind it and power it via USB. I don't need the internal fan to be completely silent, but a few notches down would be great.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> Testing it out today I learned that the fan noise when it's doing a lot of work is not going to work out for me; what kind of external fans have you guys used to keep the internal one from going mad? It seemed to be set to five, but it's not something I spent too much time on. I don't hsve space above the unit (it's one of the big ones), but I can easily fit a fan behind it and power it via USB. I don't need the internal fan to be completely silent, but a few notches down would be great.


The 2U units use a 35 mm fan that can run at up to 7500 RPM. The big reason we switched to 1U cases for all our Radiance Pro (or the compact case), is we use a 60 mm fan that runs up to 2500 RPM. Because of the larger size and slower speed the 60 mm fan is much quieter.

Please understand that if you can maintain 84C or less, you are fine as far as function goes. In fact all the units I have ever tested all ran fine well above 84C. However, cooler is a good goal for FPGA life.

A fan blowing _into_ the 2U unit through the vent holes above the RS232 connector will do the most good. If you happen to have the 12V trigger output option you can power a 12 VDC fan up to about 200 mA by setting the 12V trigger to be active when the unit turns on. If not it might be best to use an external supply that matches the fan's required voltage.

I design using Sunon fans since they have a "Vapo" bearing. This fluid bearing in Sunon fans makes their fans the quietest I have been able to find. Of course this there may be quieter fans available.

You can contact me at Lumagen.com support email and we can talk through options.


----------



## kristenmarie

jevansoh said:


> I just noticed something.
> 
> I was looking on Keces website to see where the vents were so I could decide how best to cool it and it appears there are none!
> 
> It doesn't show a picture of the bottom, though. Can you let me know if there are vents on the bottom (or anywhere else) please?
> 
> Also, I just happened to see the measurements Keces provides on their website.
> 
> According to them, they are: 300x220x66mm
> 
> I would assume that 66mm height would include the feet since the feet aren't something that are added on by the end user.
> 
> Would you please double check your height measurements both with and without the feet for me?
> 
> I hate to ask, but these custom shelves are costing me about $200 each and I just want to be sure of the measurements before spending that kind of money on a shelf/faceplate.
> 
> Much appreciated!
> 
> --J


By my measurements, the chassis itself is 66.15mm high (I'm using calibrated Starrett calipers), not including the feet, which add an extra 10mm. There are three rows of narrow slots on the bottom 1"-2" from the front, and two narrow slots on the rear panel. The slots are about 3" long and maybe 2mm wide (not exactly conducive to good airflow), so it seems the Keces has been designed with heatsinks bonded to the chassis to radiate most of this heat without the "need" for a fan. That said, without a fan the Keces feels uncomfortably hot to the touch, so I don't believe it's designed to go into a cabinet, and as far as electronics longevity, I wouldn't want to run this without a fan. I do keep mine turned on all the time, so YMMV. Hope this helps.

I do also recommend getting the "Ghent DC02---Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cable" mentioned here, and available here. I got a 2 meter version, and the extra length was very useful for the run between the Lumagen 5348 (in the bottom half of the cabinet) and the Keces P8 (on top of the cabinet)...

Would also be interesting to understand what other Keces P8 owners are doing to keep their cool with this power supply. 🥵


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> The 2U units use a 35 mm fan that can run at up to 7500 RPM. The big reason we switched to 1U cases for all our Radiance Pro (or the compact case), is we use a 60 mm fan that runs up to 2500 RPM. Because of the larger size and slower speed the 60 mm fan is much quieter.
> 
> Please understand that if you can maintain 84C or less, you are fine as far as function goes. In fact all the units I have ever tested all ran fine well above 84C. However, cooler is a good goal for FPGA life.
> 
> A fan blowing _into_ the 2U unit through the vent holes above the RS232 connector will do the most good. If you happen to have the 12V trigger output option you can power a 12 VDC fan up to about 200 mA by setting the 12V trigger to be active when the unit turns on. If not it might be best to use an external supply that matches the fan's required voltage.
> 
> I design using Sunon fans since they have a "Vapo" bearing. This fluid bearing in Sunon fans makes their fans the quietest I have been able to find. Of course this there may be quieter fans available.
> 
> You can contact me at Lumagen.com support email and we can talk through options.


I ordered this: NF-A8 5V


----------



## Clark Burk

Naiera said:


> I ordered this: NF-A8 5V


Does the fan wiring deliver 5V?


----------



## ht guy

kristenmarie said:


> By my measurements, the chassis itself is 66.15mm high (I'm using calibrated Starrett calipers), not including the feet, which add an extra 10mm. There are three rows of narrow slots on the bottom 1"-2" from the front, and two narrow slots on the rear panel. The slots are about 3" long and maybe 2mm wide (not exactly conducive to good airflow), so it seems the Keces has been designed with heatsinks bonded to the chassis to radiate most of this heat without the "need" for a fan. That said, without a fan this uncomfortably hot to the touch, so I don't believe it's designed to go into a cabinet, and as far as electronics longevity, I wouldn't want to run this without a fan. I do keep mine turned on all the time, so YMMV. Hope this helps.
> 
> I do also recommend getting the "Ghent DC02---Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cable" mentioned here, and available here. I got a 2 meter version, and the extra length was very useful for the run between the Lumagen 5348 (in the bottom half of the cabinet) and the Keces P8 (on top of the cabinet)...
> 
> Would also be interesting to understand what other Keces P8 owners are doing to keep their cool with this power supply. 🥵


P8 owner here. Same experience as you and the other owner/poster.
Put it in cabinet first. Touched it after a movie and it was _hot,_ so moved it on top of cabinet.
When checked since, always warm after use, but not hot. No extra fans or cooling.
I also leave mine on all the time.


----------



## Naiera

Clark Burk said:


> Does the fan wiring deliver 5V?


Seems to say 5V all over the place 🤷‍♂️


----------



## riddle

Hi, any information about solving the JVC NZ problem with Lumagen? JVC recently released another update but without major changes or info about Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> Hi, any information about solving the JVC NZ problem with Lumagen? JVC recently released another update but without major changes or info about Lumagen.


Last thing I've heard from JVC is they have two projectors they are looking at that show the problem with good repeatability WITHOUT A LUMAGEN. This means the exact same problem, but without a Lumagen in the mix. So they are investigating these as they are a bit more repeatable for troubleshooting (and yes, they have a Lumagen unit to test with as well). So hopefully they'll nail down the culprit and have a solution.


----------



## dlinsley

Sounds like JVC didn't get a full speed synthesis on their Altera FPGA


----------



## jevansoh

Mike_WI said:


> In my experience with MA custom shelves they either have previously made the shelf -- eg for a common component (eg Oppo BR players) -- or you send in the component for them to custom make it.


Yes, those are two options.

The Keces P8 isn't already in the database and I prefer to not have to fool with the time, effort, and expense to send it in to them.

They offered to simply accept the measurements from me and make the panel based on those measurements without me sending the device in, at least in this case.

Thanks.


----------



## jevansoh

kristenmarie said:


> By my measurements, the chassis itself is 66.15mm high (I'm using calibrated Starrett calipers), not including the feet, which add an extra 10mm. There are three rows of narrow slots on the bottom 1"-2" from the front, and two narrow slots on the rear panel. The slots are about 3" long and maybe 2mm wide (not exactly conducive to good airflow), so it seems the Keces has been designed with heatsinks bonded to the chassis to radiate most of this heat without the "need" for a fan. That said, without a fan the Keces feels uncomfortably hot to the touch, so I don't believe it's designed to go into a cabinet, and as far as electronics longevity, I wouldn't want to run this without a fan. I do keep mine turned on all the time, so YMMV. Hope this helps.
> 
> I do also recommend getting the "Ghent DC02---Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cable" mentioned here, and available here. I got a 2 meter version, and the extra length was very useful for the run between the Lumagen 5348 (in the bottom half of the cabinet) and the Keces P8 (on top of the cabinet)...
> 
> Would also be interesting to understand what other Keces P8 owners are doing to keep their cool with this power supply. 🥵


Thank you very much for the confirmation on the measurements. I definitely trust your measurements and have submitted them to Middle Atlantic.

I, too, would love to hear other's thoughts about keeping the Keces P8 cool in a rack or enclosure.

I'm attaching my proposed rack design and would really appreciate some comments on best locations for intake fans, front exhaust fans, and top exhaust fans, especially around the Lumagen 4446+ (Mine is a 2U unit) and the Keces P8 power supply. All shelves are vented and my rack has a metal mesh vented front and rear door. I can place fans (was thinking AC Infinity brand 1U fans) anywhere where the diagram lists "Blank Slots" as long as they are 1U fans.

Thanks again!


----------



## jevansoh

kristenmarie said:


> I do also recommend getting the "Ghent DC02---Oyaide 2.1G---2.5G Canare-4S6 DC Cable" mentioned here, and available here. I got a 2 meter version, and the extra length was very useful for the run between the Lumagen 5348 (in the bottom half of the cabinet) and the Keces P8 (on top of the cabinet)...


I will take your advice and order this cable.

My equipment is all boxed up ready to be deployed into the new rack, so I can't easily look for myself right now, but can you tell me if the port for the DC cable is on the same side on both the Keces P8 and Lumagen or if they're on opposite sides, or "other" so I can determine the best length of cable to order?

Thanks.


----------



## jevansoh

Naiera said:


> I ordered this: NF-A8 5V


Where did you place it exactly?

Do you power it via USB? From the Keces or from the Lumagen?

Thanks.


----------



## jevansoh

riddle said:


> Hi, any information about solving the JVC NZ problem with Lumagen? JVC recently released another update but without major changes or info about Lumagen.


I just read every post all the way back to page 790 and don't see reference to this. I'll be using my 4446+ w/ a JVC NZ8. Can you explain the problem or direct me to a post that describes it, please?

Thanks.


----------



## garyolearysteele

jevansoh said:


> I just read every post all the way back to page 790 and don't see reference to this. I'll be using my 4446+ w/ a JVC NZ8. Can you explain the problem or direct me to a post that describes it, please?
> 
> Thanks.


There is a compatibility issue between the Lumagen and the new JVC NZ line. The symptom is a green/magenta flash every so often. The pre production firmware for the JVC didn’t have the issue but a later fix for a HDMI issue with another mainstream AVR appears to have introduced it. A temporary fix is to install the pre prod firmware (you can roll back from later versions), if you email Lumagen support they will send you a link to download it.

Hopefully a new JVC will resolve the issue properly, I’m hopeful now other devices are reportedly showing the same symptoms.


----------



## Naiera

jevansoh said:


> Where did you place it exactly?
> 
> Do you power it via USB? From the Keces or from the Lumagen?
> 
> Thanks.


I ordered it early Monday morning, and Monday was a national holiday here, so they haven't even shipped it yet. I'm just going to power it via USB and have it running permanently down there; at 18dB it shouldn't be audible.


----------



## kristenmarie

jevansoh said:


> I will take your advice and order this cable.
> 
> My equipment is all boxed up ready to be deployed into the new rack, so I can't easily look for myself right now, but can you tell me if the port for the DC cable is on the same side on both the Keces P8 and Lumagen or if they're on opposite sides, or "other" so I can determine the best length of cable to order?
> 
> Thanks.


When looking from the back, the Keces P8 has its output on the left side. For the 5348, it's also on the left (same) side. For either the 1U or 2U versions of the 4446, it's on the right (opposite) side. Personally, I'd get a slightly longer cable in case you ever want to upgrade or need to move components around.


----------



## Kurvenal

bjorg said:


> Oh, that's a neat solution for those who don't need/want a full featured HTPC. Since it runs Windows, the existing Lumagen software will work great on it as is. Great suggestion!
> 
> For those who need remote access to it, I can recommend RealVNC. It's free for personal use and works great. That way, you can mount it in your rack and log-in from your laptop whenever you need to.


I have an Intel NUC with Windows 10 Pro connected via USB to my Lumagen. I just tried using Microsoft Remote Desktop (RDP) to run an update, and it worked fantastically using the RDP client for Mac. Would highly recommend.


----------



## dlinsley

Does anyone have a recommendation for an S-Video to HDMI converter? Ideally supporting PAL as well as NTSC. There's space in my rack, so I am going to unbox my LD player just for fun and to check if my boxsets have rotted.


----------



## raullopez1234

Should I set my Panasonic ub820 to output in sdr/2020 or hdr/2020.?


----------



## Peule_P

dlinsley said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation for an S-Video to HDMI converter? Ideally supporting PAL as well as NTSC. There's space in my rack, so I am going to unbox my LD player just for fun and to check if my boxsets have rotted.


use composite out from your LD player and get a Lumagen 2144


----------



## jbrinegar

raullopez1234 said:


> Should I set my Panasonic ub820 to output in sdr/2020 or hdr/2020.?


Definitely HDR 2020, youll want the lumagen to do the DTM (not the static TM of the panasonic)


----------



## sjerseydad22

I'm using a JVC RS500 + LRP + 119"/1.1 in a light controlled room sitting 12 feet back. I'm wondering if anyone would suggest that there's a newer model PJ I might want to consider "upgrading" to? By "newer" I don't mean currently released models (aka JVC's X or Z Series or Sony's XW5/6/7000) but instead something that was released post 2017 when I bought the 500? I don't have a problem with the 500 (although I wish it were brighter for 3D content but it's tolerable for that). I'm just in that weird position where I don't know if I might be missing something given what I've already got. I'm just fishing for thoughts.


----------



## raullopez1234

sjerseydad22 said:


> I'm using a JVC RS500 + LRP + 119"/1.1 in a light controlled room sitting 12 feet back. I'm wondering if anyone would suggest that there's a newer model PJ I might want to consider "upgrading" to? By "newer" I don't mean currently released models (aka JVC's X or Z Series or Sony's XW5/6/7000) but instead something that was released post 2017 when I bought the 500? I don't have a problem with the 500 (although I wish it were brighter for 3D content but it's tolerable for that). I'm just in that weird position where I don't know if I might be missing something given what I've already got. I'm just fishing for thoughts.


Stick with your projector until dual laser or triple laser lcos or sxrd projectors are released. I owned a JVC nx7 but sold it because I wasn't satisfied with the picture quality. JVC rs500 with a lumagen is a much better setup.


----------



## sjerseydad22

raullopez1234 said:


> Stick with your projector until dual laser or triple laser lcos or sxrd projectors are released. I owned a JVC nx7 but sold it because I wasn't satisfied with the picture quality. JVC rs500 with a lumagen is a much better setup.


Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. To me, the display looks excellent with the LRP in the chain, and that's with a bulb that has 2500 hours on it, and it hasn't been calibrated since 2017. But I thought maybe there are others here, similarly situated with a 500-like machine, who bumped up to a native-4k device and saw a noticeable difference from the 500.


----------



## raullopez1234

sjerseydad22 said:


> Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. To me, the display looks excellent with the LRP in the chain, and that's with a bulb that has 2500 hours on it, and it hasn't been calibrated since 2017. But I thought maybe there are others here, similarly situated with a 500-like machine, who bumped up to a native-4k device and saw a noticeable difference from the 500.


I just did a auto calibration last week . My projector has 700 hours in it's original bulb. I would recommend just to replace your bulb.


----------



## MDesigns

sjerseydad22 said:


> Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. To me, the display looks excellent with the LRP in the chain, and that's with a bulb that has 2500 hours on it, and it hasn't been calibrated since 2017. But I thought maybe there are others here, similarly situated with a 500-like machine, who bumped up to a native-4k device and saw a noticeable difference from the 500.


You would need the latest and greatest really expensive top of the line laser models from JVC and Sony to get much more light output. Anything in between uses the same lamps and/or is about the same brightness.


----------



## Kris Deering

Just wanted to give some folks a heads up. JVC is still working on the glitch issue and have been able to reproduce it. They actually have a projector that was sent in that does it quite frequently with both a Roku and AppleTV (no Lumagen) that is more consistent in showing the issue. One way they've seen a drastic reduction or almost complete elimination is to switch the input colorspace on the JVC to 422 instead of the default AUTO as the issue is a quick one to two frame change of colorspace. I loaded the latest JVC firmware onto my 4100 last night and changed the input format to 422 and I didn't get any glitches in the roughly 3 hours I was using it. Last time I tried with newer firmware I started getting a glitch within the first 20 minutes or so. Not sure if this work around is a complete fix, but it would be interesting for those that have had the issue with their setup in the past to give it a shot and see if it helps. It is pretty easy to load firmware onto the JVC, so may be worth a look.


----------



## Hoi

sjerseydad22 said:


> Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. To me, the display looks excellent with the LRP in the chain, and that's with a bulb that has 2500 hours on it, and it hasn't been calibrated since 2017. But I thought maybe there are others here, similarly situated with a 500-like machine, who bumped up to a native-4k device and saw a noticeable difference from the 500.


I still run a RS500 along with a NX7+DCR lens. The new LRP beta firmware makes the RS500 still look great. I use the RS500 for streaming + 1080p blu rays and the NX7 for 4K blu rays. 

Instead of upgrading to one of the new laser models, I put an order in for Stewart ST130G4 2.4 & 16:9 screens to replace my 0.8 & 1.0 gain screens from another brand. I'm very confident they will turn out being fantastic upgrades. The 10 week wait time is figuratively killing me haha.


----------



## sjerseydad22

Hoi said:


> I still run a RS500 along with a NX7+DCR lens. The new LRP beta firmware makes the RS500 still look great. I use the RS500 for streaming + 1080p blu rays and the NX7 for 4K blu rays.
> 
> Instead of upgrading to one of the new laser models, I put an order in for Stewart ST130G4 2.4 & 16:9 screens to replace my 0.8 & 1.0 gain screens from another brand. I'm very confident they will turn out being fantastic upgrades. The 10 week wait time is figuratively killing me haha.


Ah, interesting (esp. the screen sub).

I too noticed an uptick in image quality after the newest LRP f/w update for both BD and streaming content. 

Are you able to quantify differences in images RS500 vs NX7? If so, can you reference a film scene that I might be able to relate to?


----------



## sjerseydad22

raullopez1234 said:


> I just did a auto calibration last week . My projector has 700 hours in it's original bulb. I would recommend just to replace your bulb.


I did buy a new bulb a few months ago, and measured its brightness v. the 2500 hour bulb. Identical f/L at the screen. Maybe I didn't measure correctly? So I elected to keep using the "old" bulb.


----------



## sjerseydad22

But also, I just bought a ChromaPure calibration bundle from CurtPalme to use with the LRP. I figured that would bring me some benefit, even though I've never calibrated before.


----------



## Hoi

sjerseydad22 said:


> Ah, interesting (esp. the screen sub).
> 
> I too noticed an uptick in image quality after the newest LRP f/w update for both BD and streaming content.
> 
> *Are you able to quantify differences in images RS500 vs NX7?* If so, can you reference a film scene that I might be able to relate to?


People throw the word "calmer image" with the NX line compared to the 4K eshift ones. It's definitely there but the DCR lens on my NX7 also helps with the overall picture and added brightness. Better blacks on the RS500 though. You'll get better info in the NX thread.


----------



## dlinsley

Peule_P said:


> use composite out from your LD player and get a Lumagen 2144


Maybe just a skoch more than I was looking to spend  I also couldn't believe the prices being asked for an AC-3 demodulator! I managed to find one of those relatively local to me for the bargain price of $100, not much less than I paid in 1997 for a Yamaha ADP-1.


----------



## morellihugo

Duplicated. Sorry.


----------



## morellihugo

Kris Deering said:


> Just wanted to give some folks a heads up. JVC is still working on the glitch issue and have been able to reproduce it. They actually have a projector that was sent in that does it quite frequently with both a Roku and AppleTV (no Lumagen) that is more consistent in showing the issue. One way they've seen a drastic reduction or almost complete elimination is to switch the input colorspace on the JVC to 422 instead of the default AUTO as the issue is a quick one to two frame change of colorspace. I loaded the latest JVC firmware onto my 4100 last night and changed the input format to 422 and I didn't get any glitches in the roughly 3 hours I was using it. Last time I tried with newer firmware I started getting a glitch within the first 20 minutes or so. Not sure if this work around is a complete fix, but it would be interesting for those that have had the issue with their setup in the past to give it a shot and see if it helps. It is pretty easy to load firmware onto the JVC, so may be worth a look.


@Kris Deering if we update to the latest JVC firmware (1.23) we'll be able to revert to preproduction FW is this solution do not solve the issue?


----------



## Peule_P

dlinsley said:


> Maybe just a skoch more than I was looking to spend  I also couldn't believe the prices being asked for an AC-3 demodulator! I managed to find one of those relatively local to me for the bargain price of $100, not much less than I paid in 1997 for a Yamaha ADP-1.


yes they are expensive and highly sought after 
If you want to spend a but less I think the Lumagen XD/XE/XS do a decent job as well (all give the same result) although the 2144 has a much better comb filter, but perhaps this is not the most appropriate topic for this subject


----------



## Kris Deering

morellihugo said:


> @Kris Deering if we update to the latest JVC firmware (1.23) we'll be able to revert to preproduction FW is this solution do not solve the issue?


Yes


----------



## Nima

I had posted about my findings with 422 on the JVC and the glitch several pages ago.


----------



## Leon66

Nima said:


> I had posted about my findings with 422 on the JVC and the glitch several pages ago.


Love to see a copy can’t find it…before I update to 1.23 from 0.61….


----------



## EVH78

Nima said:


> I had posted about my findings with 422 on the JVC and the glitch several pages ago.


For some reason I misinterpreted this and thought you had set the Lumagen to 4:2:2. Setting the JVC to 4:2:2 makes perfect sense. Just installed 1.21 and will observe!


----------



## raullopez1234

My initial impressions of the lumagen is a positive one. It has great upscaling of 1080p to 4k from a Blu ray source. I was never satisfied with my Panasonic ub820 feeding to a nx7 or x750 . Last night I was finally truly satisfied seeing the upscaling quality of the lumagen as well as the great dynamic tone mapping.


----------



## Kris Deering

About 2.5 hours last night with no glitching. So far so good.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

After a few weeks of trouble free operation on beta 050722 firmware, l am now starting to see a few issues. For context, LRP is the 5244 model (all sources connect to 5244), display is Sony 790ES.

Firstly, I now occasionally get an over temperature warning on startup from dead cold. This is resolved by restarting the device, but this isn't right. Checking temp after reboot shows ~40C. 

Switching between sources also seems very hit and miss now. In many cases when changing inputs I'm left with a black screen (assuming no sync). This usually results in having to toggle inputs or restarting to get an image. I did try the new HDCP delay option to help with this, and it does seem to improve this issue somewhat, but flagging that this wasn't such a problem in prior firmware.

This next one only started last night and I wasn't sure if this was related directly to the Nvidia Shield Pro or the input/config on the LRP, but I was only getting a static image displayed. I could hear sound (menu clicks, etc) but the video was static/frozen. I tried numerous restarts (including power off from wall) of the LRP and Shield but nothing seemed to resolve the issue. I pulled the Shield out and tested on another display today, it was fine. Back into the LRP and same issue.... wtf? In the end, toggling the test patterns on/off fixed the issue (at least for now).


----------



## jrp

xPLAYRZx said:


> After a few weeks of trouble free operation on beta 050722 firmware, l am now starting to see a few issues. For context, LRP is the 5244 model (all sources connect to 5244), display is Sony 790ES.
> 
> Firstly, I now occasionally get an over temperature warning on startup from dead cold. This is resolved by restarting the device, but this isn't right. Checking temp after reboot shows ~40C.
> 
> Switching between sources also seems very hit and miss now. In many cases when changing inputs I'm left with a black screen (assuming no sync). This usually results in having to toggle inputs or restarting to get an image. I did try the new HDCP delay option to help with this, and it does seem to improve this issue somewhat, but flagging that this wasn't such a problem in prior firmware.
> 
> This next one only started last night and I wasn't sure if this was related directly to the Nvidia Shield Pro or the input/config on the LRP, but I was only getting a static image displayed. I could hear sound (menu clicks, etc) but the video was static/frozen. I tried numerous restarts (including power off from wall) of the LRP and Shield but nothing seemed to resolve the issue. I pulled the Shield out and tested on another display today, it was fine. Back into the LRP and same issue.... wtf? In the end, toggling the test patterns on/off fixed the issue (at least for now).


While people know I say this a lot, I suggest pushing in and wiggling each end of every HDMI cable. This reseats each plug and will often fix an issue of "it was working, nothing changed, and now I have issues." Of course it might not help.

If you are not using the above-standard output voltage on your 5244, I suggest you give that a go as it has helped in several cases with dropouts. The 5XXX units use HDMI standard output voltage without output EQ by default. Historically a number of HDMI products have set a higher than standard output voltage since it often helps make for a better HDMI connection.

For the 5XXX units (only), you can select the output levels higher (by about 20%) as MENU 0718 (Output 1), MENU 0728 (Output 2), and MENU 0738 (Output 3 for the 5348 only). Than do a Save. Raising the output voltage IMO never hurts and can help with HDMI lock on.

If this does not fix you up I recommend contacting me at the lumagen.com support email and we can discuss further.


----------



## OzHDHT

I decided to install 1.23 yesterday from .61 (zero issues with the update itself unlike someone else reported). I've set to 4:2:2 in the NZ9 and will be testing for as many hours as I can muster later today and tonight. Will be great if it serves as workaround as it's been a bit annoying stuck on .61 pre-release for this long with the issue.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

jrp said:


> If you are not using the above-standard output voltage on your 5244, I suggest you give that a go as it has helped in several cases with dropouts. The 5XXX units use HDMI standard output voltage without output EQ by default. Historically a number of HDMI products have set a higher than standard output voltage since it often helps make for a better HDMI connection.
> 
> For the 5XXX units (only), you can select the output levels higher (by about 20%) as MENU 0718 (Output 1), MENU 0728 (Output 2), and MENU 0738 (Output 3 for the 5348 only). Than do a Save. Raising the output voltage IMO never hurts and can help with HDMI lock on.


Thanks Jim, I'll give this a try.

In regards to the video freezing issue, disabling HDCP delay seems to have fixed this for me. I will continue to monitor. Thanks to @Kurvenal for the suggestion.


----------



## Kris Deering

OzHDHT said:


> I decided to install 1.23 yesterday from .61 (zero issues with the update itself unlike someone else reported). I've set to 4:2:2 in the NZ9 and will be testing for as many hours as I can muster later today and tonight. Will be great if it serves as workaround as it's been a bit annoying stuck on .61 pre-release for this long with the issue.


remember, the Lumagen is sending 422 by default. This has always been the case. What you need to do is go into the second menu of the JVC and set the input colorspace to 422 instead of auto. It is only that setting that seems to help.


----------



## OzHDHT

Kris Deering said:


> remember, the Lumagen is sending 422 by default. This has always been the case. What you need to do is go into the second menu of the JVC and set the input colorspace to 422 instead of auto. It is only that setting that seems to help.


Yeah Kris this is what I've done, precisely as per your advice prior, as I'd also mentioned in the owners thread. I can see where Lumagen owners may get confused with that part though.


----------



## Leon66

For reference followed Kris’s advice and updated to 1.23 from .61 and changed JVC to 4.2.2 from auto. 2 hours in no glitches…..it looks promising.


----------



## Erod

Do calibrated Lumagens need to be recalibrated when there is a screen change, or just the projector?


----------



## jrp

xPLAYRZx said:


> Thanks Jim, I'll give this a try.
> 
> In regards to the video freezing issue, disabling HDCP delay seems to have fixed this for me. I will continue to monitor. Thanks to @Kurvenal for the suggestion.


We have another report of screen freeze with HDCP delay, and then no screen freeze without HDCP delay enabled. I think you are communicating with the other person who might have this issue, and sounds similar for both of you.

So might be a bug in the HDCP delay feature, or the projector does not like HDCP being turned on "late." We will have to investigate and see if we can reproduce the issue in the lab.

Thanks for the report.


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> Do calibrated Lumagens need to be recalibrated when there is a screen change, or just the projector?


If you have a JVC and the calibration was done off the projector lens (instead of off the screen) then you should be able to just plug in the new screen code I'd imagine on the JVC.

If your calibration was done off-screen, then you'd probably need to redo it if your screen material was changed.


----------



## Erod

DigitalAV said:


> If you have a JVC and the calibration was done off the projector lens (instead of off the screen) then you should be able to just plug in the new screen code I'd imagine on the JVC.
> 
> If your calibration was done off-screen, then you'd probably need to redo it if your screen material was changed.


For the projector, yes, I know I'll need to recalibrate because I do it off the screen. I'm assuming my 1D and 3D calibrations for my Lumagen don't need to be re-done?


----------



## Naiera

Calibrating off the projector lens?!


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> For the projector, yes, I know I'll need to recalibrate because I do it off the screen. I'm assuming my 1D and 3D calibrations for my Lumagen don't need to be re-done?


What exactly are you changing/replacing?


----------



## Erod

DigitalAV said:


> What exactly are you changing/replacing?


Going from a 120" Stewart ST130 G4 screen to a 135" microperf version of the same.


----------



## jrp

jrp said:


> We have another report of screen freeze with HDCP delay, and then no screen freeze without HDCP delay enabled. I think you are communicating with the other person who might have this issue, and sounds similar for both of you.
> 
> So might be a bug in the HDCP delay feature, or the projector does not like HDCP being turned on "late." We will have to investigate and see if we can reproduce the issue in the lab.


I just talked with Patrick. He said the only difference with HDCP delay enabled is the Radiance Pro software sends the command to turn on HDCP to the output chip a few seconds after starting the connection. This is a single command to the HDMI output chip. We know this command is happening as it should and when it should. So, there is nothing that can be done in the Radiance Pro software for this.

After our discussion, we both agree that if you need HDCP delay it is because you have an HDCP issue in your projector/TV. Delaying the HDCP turning on just delays when the HDCP issue occurs for your system.

We have a number of people with HDCP issues that turning on HDCP delay fixes their issue and does not cause the screen lock condition you are reporting.

As of now, we believe this is an issue in the TV/projector that you have to turn "HDCP delay" off to work around. I realize that if you have the HDCP issue we added the HDCP delay for you are not thrilled to hear this.

==== 

I know I always say this, but lock on and dropout issues are often resolved by using a different, better, HDMI cable. It is certainly possible, and has happened, that lock on and HDCP issues disappear once the better cable is installed. I cannot be sure this is true in your system, but it has been true in hundreds of other systems. Of course, you may already have an excellent HDMI cable and this is not it.

I recommend the Tributaries UHDV Vega, or the AVPro Bullet Train fiber cables. Also, you might find increasing the output swing in your 5244 helps since the larger swing can open up the HDMI "eye diagram" in some cases.

If you would like, you can email me at the lumagen.com support email and we can set up a dialog on this.


----------



## DigitalAV

Naiera said:


> Calibrating off the projector lens?!


Hah, calibrating pointed at the projector (as opposed to pointing at the screen). Not literally near or touching the lens


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> For the projector, yes, I know I'll need to recalibrate because I do it off the screen. I'm assuming my 1D and 3D calibrations for my Lumagen don't need to be re-done?


Of course it does. You can't do one part of a calibration without affecting the other. If you change your screen, you have a vastly different light level. This will change the gamma, which means a new calibration. You can't just mess with the projector and expect measurements for your 1D/3D LUT to not be affected.


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> Going from a 120" Stewart ST130 G4 screen to a 135" microperf version of the same.


Hmm good question. I guess the gain would lower but not the color shift? Don't know if that would affect gamma, so maybe just redo the 1D?

Full disclosure, I'm an enthusiast at best and might be way off here


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> Going from a 120" Stewart ST130 G4 screen to a 135" microperf version of the same.


Since the vendor, the screen material, size, and screen gain, are all the same, I do not believe having it be "micro-perf" will require a recalibration. If you change any of these then yes, do a recalibration.

[EDIT] I missed you are changing the size of the screen. You will lose 21% of your light output per fixed area (i.e. nits), plus a bit more due to the micro-perf holes. I suspect you would find that the grayscale and 3D LUT on a recalibration would not improve in a human perceptible way at the same lamp/laser level you calibrated to. However, this does violate one rule in my initial premise. So, I am not as certain on the no recalibration needed statement. Also, if you increase lamp/laser level to compensate for the light loss, you should get a recalibration. [END EDIT]

If one adds the consideration of variations in the screen material characteristics between manufacturing lots, there might be a very small measurable change. However, I do not think the manufacturing variance this may cause would be a change perceivable by humans. Said another way, if you have excellent dE's, you might measure a small change, but you would still have excellent dE's.

This is based on experience since I have not done such an experiment. If it has been a while since you have had a calibration done, might be a good idea to get a fresh calibration even if you did not change the screen.


----------



## DigitalAV

A horse is a horse of course of course and no one can talk to a horse of course that is of course unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed!


----------



## OzHDHT

I was able to run my NZ9 for around 10 hours yesterday testing fw 1.23 and 4:2:2 mode (NZ9). The source was PS5 for a period, although I was in and out of the room during that period. I did do a solid 4.5 hours of viewing via ATV and there was no issues. Will be doing further viewing today and should clock up a decent amount of hours again.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I may be off the mark here, but a LUT calibration is essentially taking everything into account from source to image. As soon as you change anything, projector, screen, lamp it will need another calibration.


----------



## Kurvenal

jrp said:


> I just talked with Patrick. He said the only difference with HDCP delay enabled is the Radiance Pro software sends the command to turn on HDCP to the output chip a few seconds after starting the connection. This is a single command to the HDMI output chip. We know this command is happening as it should and when it should. So, there is nothing that can be done in the Radiance Pro software for this.
> 
> After our discussion, we both agree that if you need HDCP delay it is because you have an HDCP issue in your projector/TV. Delaying the HDCP turning on just delays when the HDCP issue occurs for your system.
> 
> We have a number of people with HDCP issues that turning on HDCP delay fixes their issue and does not cause the screen lock condition you are reporting.
> 
> As of now, we believe this is an issue in the TV/projector that you have to turn "HDCP delay" off to work around. I realize that if you have the HDCP issue we added the HDCP delay for you are not thrilled to hear this.


Jim,

Any chance the HDCP Delay can be implemented on a per input basis instead of being a Global command?


----------



## xPLAYRZx

@jrp this is the temperature warning I was referring to. Triggered again last night.



xPLAYRZx said:


> I now occasionally get an over temperature warning on startup from dead cold. This is resolved by restarting the device, but this isn't right. Checking temp after reboot shows ~40C.


LRP 5244 (Beta 050722 firmware)


----------



## jrp

xPLAYRZx said:


> @jrp this is the temperature warning I was referring to. Triggered again last night.
> 
> LRP 5244 (Beta 050722 firmware)


We had a temperature reading bug in the 5244. I thought we had it sorted. I will discuss this with Patrick and he can check into it again.

For now, does this false report go away if you pull and restore wall power?

xPLAYRZx might be your specific unit.

Do any other 5244 owners have this false over temperature report ever come up?


----------



## jrp

Kurvenal said:


> Jim,
> 
> Any chance the HDCP Delay can be implemented on a per input basis instead of being a Global command?


The issue we were addressing is with the projector/TV/AVR on the output. However, if you are seeing it work without HDCP delay for some sources, and with HDCP delay for others, there is more to it than we thought.

We can certainly consider making it a per input setting.

You might try the "Only at Startup" setting to see if that helps.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

jrp said:


> We had a temperature reading bug in the 5244. I thought we had it sorted. I will discuss this with Patrick and he can check into it again.
> 
> For now, does this false report go away if you pull and restore wall power?


Yes, don't think I even need to pull power from the wall, switching back to standby and on again usually removes the error. 

Note this doesn't occur on every startup and only seems to have returned after update to beta 050722. It did occur when I first purchased the unit (not sure what firmware was loaded OOTB) but didn't happen again while on firmware 102221.


----------



## Mike_WI

> @jrp this is the temperature warning I was referring to. Triggered again last night.





xPLAYRZx said:


> Yes, don't think I even need to pull power from the wall, switching back to standby and on again usually removes the error.
> 
> Note this doesn't occur on every startup and only seems to have returned after update to beta 050722. It did occur when I first purchased the unit (not sure what firmware was loaded OOTB) but didn't happen again while on firmware 102221.


Is the Lumagen hot?
Do you have an external temperature?
eg from https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lasergrip-1080-Non-Contact-Thermometer/dp/B00DMI632G/ref=sr_1_1_sspa


----------



## GerryWaz

jrp said:


> Do any other 5244 owners have this false over temperature report ever come up?


Have never seen it on mine.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> Do any other 5244 owners have this false over temperature report ever come up?


Yes on my 5348


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Mike_WI said:


> Is the Lumagen hot?


No. Mike, in case you missed it, the unit is stone cold (turned off for > 12 hrs) when this error occurs and is usually on startup for me, although I have had this error trigger falsely after a few hours use with chip temps only reporting ~60C.

@jrp if it helps, the temp error I originally saw prior to 102221 was (175) compared to the now (177). I'm sure these codes will make some sense to you.


----------



## Kurvenal

jrp said:


> The issue we were addressing is with the projector/TV/AVR on the output. However, if you are seeing it work without HDCP delay for some sources, and with HDCP delay for others, there is more to it than we thought.
> 
> We can certainly consider making it a per input setting.
> 
> You might try the "Only at Startup" setting to see if that helps.


Thanks Jim. I will test "Only at Startup", but will be traveling the rest of this week so may not get back to you right away. 

The HDCP Delay seems to help lock on to the Intel NUC I use for videoconferencing, but is also apparently what causes the image on my ATV to freeze. I was interested to see that another user also got a frozen image with his Shield. So for whatever reason it seems like streaming boxes are the most affected. 

Will keep my fingers crossed that "Only at Startup" will be the sweet spot...


----------



## jrp

Kurvenal said:


> Thanks Jim. I will test "Only at Startup", but will be traveling the rest of this week so may not get back to you right away.
> 
> The HDCP Delay seems to help lock on to the Intel NUC I use for videoconferencing, but is also apparently what causes the image on my ATV to freeze. I was interested to see that another user also got a frozen image with his Shield. So for whatever reason it seems like streaming boxes are the most affected.
> 
> Will keep my fingers crossed that "Only at Startup" will be the sweet spot...


As I mentioned the Radiance Pro software can only control when the HDCP is enabled on an output restart. Pat is working changing the timing of the "HDCP delay" start in relation to both the Pro input lock on the new input (or input rate), and the Pro output restart. He believes this change may help with the screen freeze you are seeing. We should have another Beta release perhaps as early as this week. It will have this change. I will be interested in if this HDCP delay start change helps your screen freeze issue.


----------



## SJHT

Had 2 audio drops in movies with the new firmware. I changed over to using Jim‘s recommended settings (I have an Altitude 32) with prior firmwares and seemed pretty solid. Gosh, I really don’t like audio drops…. Wish I could duplicate, but seem a bit random. SJ


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Had 2 audio drops in movies with the new firmware. I changed over to using Jim‘s recommended settings (I have an Altitude 32) with prior firmwares and seemed pretty solid. Gosh, I really don’t like audio drops…. Wish I could duplicate, but seem a bit random. SJ


What audio formats had the drop?

There is a reported issue in the Altitude with DTS HD. If the format was DTS HD it could be this. If the format was ATMOS, then there is no reported issue in teh Altitude for ATMOS and it could be the connection.

I have eliminated dropouts that started occurring by pressing in and wiggling each end of every HDMI cable to reseat the connections. You may also have seen (and may be using) my recommended Tributaries 3 meter UHDP or UHDM cable from the Pro to the Altitude. These have excellent electrical characteristics and have the optimal amount of cable attenuation.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> What audio formats had the drop?
> 
> There is a reported issue in the Altitude with DTS HD. If the format was DTS HD it could be this. If the format was ATMOS, then there is no reported issue in teh Altitude for ATMOS and it could be the connection.
> 
> I have eliminated dropouts that started occurring by pressing in and wiggling each end of every HDMI cable to reseat the connections. You may also have seen (and may be using) my recommended Tributaries 3 meter UHDP or UHDM cable from the Pro to the Altitude. These have excellent electrical characteristics and have the optimal amount of cable attenuation.


This was 2 Atmos movies. I used Native surround format which had eliminated the issue prior to this firmware. Have those exact 3 meter cables. Will do some more testing and reseat cables…


----------



## Mark Burton

SJHT said:


> This was 2 Atmos movies. I used Native surround format which had eliminated the issue prior to this firmware. Have those exact 3 meter cables. Will do some more testing and reseat cables…


I was getting 1-2 drops every film trying all sorts of different combinations. Getting a dr hdmi has resolved all but 90% of my issues.


----------



## SJHT

Mark Burton said:


> I was getting 1-2 drops every film trying all sorts of different combinations. Getting a dr hdmi has resolved all but 90% of my issues.


You put it between the Pro and the audio processor? I have never had a video issue. SJ


----------



## Kris Deering

I had two dropouts in a movie just over a week ago with one of the Alpha releases. It was an Atmos movie. Haven't had any since then (using current beta) and have been watching about 2-3 hours a day most days. Nearly everything I've been watching lately is in Atmos.


----------



## Mark Burton

SJHT said:


> You put it between the Pro and the audio processor? I have never had a video issue. SJ


Yes, audio out on the lumagen, into my trinnov


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

I have to agree that Atmos has been problematic BUT not just with the Lumagen. I have two systems, one with a Lumagen and one without. Two different AVRs and two different playback players. Both systems will have random audio drop outs with Atmos more consistently than with DTS-MA. Audio drops on DTS-MA are somewhat rare but they also happen. I would love to say that the issue is with higher bitrates on both but titles like Akira with crazy-bonkers high bitrate audio rates have been flawless. My theory is QC issues with encoding causing decoding issues.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> This was 2 Atmos movies. I used Native surround format which had eliminated the issue prior to this firmware. Have those exact 3 meter cables. Will do some more testing and reseat cables…


Thanks for the feedback.

I have posted before on what I think the issues are. They certainly include the HDMI cables. However, as I have mentioned, I think a major issue is that when the HDMI video-clock/audio-clock numerator and denominator ratio changes from time to time (these are sent in the HDMI Info Frame) many audio processors cannot deal with the step change in their audio PLL. They are required to handle this case, but many seem not to do it well.

While I cannot be certain that this is a main issue, it is consistent with our observation that changing the Radiance Pro audio output on a 9 GHz output card from audio-only (1080i or 720p) to audio+video (so it runs at 9 GHz) has eliminated audio dropouts in a number of systems. When the video/audio ratio changes, the step size at 9 GHz is 25% of the size it is at either 1080i or 720p. The much smaller step size is easier for the audio PLL to handle without a drop-out. Note: There is still a step change in the video/audio ratio, and going to audio+video does not completely eliminate audio drops in all systems.

Note: This ratio is going to change more often going through a device like the Radiance Pro that converts the audio to I2S and then back using the HDMI output chip. The numerator and denominator for the video/audio clock are very large so as not to change often. I think it is likely (but this is conjecture on my part) that going directly from the source to the audio processor may not need to change this ratio for an entire movie. The audio processors are required to deal with this change, but it is certainly easier on the audio processor if it does not happen during content playback.

Consistent with @YesAnotherTweet comments, there does seem to be a correlation between dropouts and some content providers. I do not know the details of ATMOS encoding, but I have been told that ATMOS can be encoded in ways that are harder to decode when more advanced features of ATMOS are used. I have not mentioned this before and I only have second hand information. The theory is that when the more advanced encoding is used the audio processor's DSPs (Digital Signal Processors) do not have the necessary processing cycles for an instant and that causes the dropouts. This is conjecture, and I do not know if this is actually part of the dropout issue. The only data-point I have that tends to point to this is that we had rare audio drops with our Lumagen Demo Theater Altitude until I changed it to "Native" so it would not spend processing cycles up-sampling the audio to Auro3D. One Radiance Pro owner who had the Altitude in front of the Radiance Pro also switched to Native and it resolved (last I saw posted) his audio dropouts. Since he had the Altitude in front of the Pro, the Pro could not have been involved in the dropouts. The solution was completely in the Altitude. So I believe it is the amount of decode processing (ATMOS takes a lot), and not the bit-rate itself that is the issue.


----------



## sjschaff

Mark Burton said:


> I was getting 1-2 drops every film trying all sorts of different combinations. Getting a dr hdmi has resolved all but 90% of my issues.


Sorry but what is a "dr hdmi"?


----------



## docrog

YesAnotherTweet said:


> I have to agree that Atmos has been problematic BUT not just with the Lumagen. I have two systems, one with a Lumagen and one without. Two different AVRs and two different playback players. Both systems will have random audio drop outs with Atmos more consistently than with DTS-MA. Audio drops on DTS-MA are somewhat rare but they also happen. I would love to say that the issue is with higher bitrates on both but titles like Akira with crazy-bonkers high bitrate audio rates have been flawless. My theory is QC issues with encoding causing decoding issues.


Guess I'm lucky to never have had an audio drop out for any codec (streaming or disc) while using the Denon X6700 as the switching device.


----------



## Hawks07

docrog said:


> Guess I'm lucky to never have had an audio drop out for any codec (streaming or disc) while using the Denon X6700 as the switching device.


I haven’t had a single one going through my 6700 as well. Maybe the 6700 has some secret sauce working.


----------



## alv

Dr. HDMI. Dr HDMI | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI


----------



## jrp

The Beta 2 (060322) release for the pipeline enhancements has been posted. It adds "Letter Box Top" for bottom up masking screens and those who just want all content to be at the top of their 16:9 to 2.2 screens. It also fixes some issues with Letter Box bottom and clears up the menu for setting these modes.

There is a "Remote Type." Due to typo in the data sent to the remote control company the new Radiance Pro Remote "Input" button code is really the old code for "PiP Off." Since this actually brings down the menu (the only thing done by the Input button), as well as turning PiP off on this non-PiP remote, and to prevent a three month or so delay in the already delayed Radiance Pro remote we choose to continue and build the Radiance Pro remote. No issues doing this for most people, but one person was using the "Input shortcut menu" and the Radiance Pro remote would not bring up this menu when pressing Input on the Radiance pro remote. The new Remote Type can be set to allow the Radiance Pro remote to bring up the "Input shortcut menu" when the Input button is pressed.

Based on feedback the Subtitle Feature "down-arrow" now moves the bottom edge of the active video up by 6%, and then 10% (rather than Beta 1's 8% and 12%). Note that for some aspects (e.g. 2.00 on a 16:9), the first down arrow move only enough to make the raster below the active image visible down to the bottom of the source raster, and this is less than 6%.

The FPGA timing looks very good, but please let us know if you have any issues with Beta 2.

Here is the release log:

Beta 060322- Posted 061422 Beta 2 of the Pipeline Enhancement update. Adds "Top" option to orient letterboxed video formats to the top of video output. This setting is in the menu under Input: In Configs: RES: Sizing: Lbox Control and previously options for Bottom, Zoom, Off . Fix for Lbox Control: Off when output aspect is > 1.78. Subtitle shift feature now shifts by 6 & 10% (was 8 & 12%). Fix for some cases of masking that could cause black screens or black & white video. Fix for hdcp delay use that could cause video loss or diamond hatch pattern to appear on output. Bugfix for using NLS with 4k sources when using 9Ghz input cards. A precision improvement for 4k sources when using 9Ghz input cards Bugfix for incorrect video mode id with 4096 pixel wide 4k output modes sent on HDMI output which could confuse some devices downstream of the Pro. Added a remote control type setting in menu under Other: I/O Setup: Remote Ctl, for some different Lumagen remotes if you're using the Input button on the Lumagen remote. Cleared up some confusing language in the Global: Video: Features menu. Fix for incorrect zooming with Lbox Control set to bottom. Other minor bugfixes and improvements.


----------



## docrog

From @jrp recent post: "Fix for HDCP delay use that could cause...diamond hatch pattern to appear on output." 

I have intermittently experienced a diamond hatch pattern on a green background on first connection to the PJ (not related to an individual input) . This doesn't happen on 2nd powering up of the RP (which when off, resides without power, rather than in standby mode). Would the HDCP Delay feature be helpful in getting rid of this annoyance? If so, what delay would be a good setting to start with?


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> From @jrp recent post: "Fix for HDCP delay use that could cause...diamond hatch pattern to appear on output."
> 
> I have intermittently experienced a diamond hatch pattern on a green background on first connection to the PJ (not related to an individual input) . This doesn't happen on 2nd powering up of the RP (which when off, resides without power, rather than in standby mode). Would the HDCP Delay feature be helpful in getting rid of this annoyance? If so, what delay would be a good setting to start with?


Worth trying the HDCP delay as this is one issue that it can help. You need to test it out to know for sure though.


----------



## EVH78

docrog said:


> From @jrp recent post: "Fix for HDCP delay use that could cause...diamond hatch pattern to appear on output."
> 
> I have intermittently experienced a diamond hatch pattern on a green background on first connection to the PJ (not related to an individual input) . This doesn't happen on 2nd powering up of the RP (which when off, resides without power, rather than in standby mode). Would the HDCP Delay feature be helpful in getting rid of this annoyance? If so, what delay would be a good setting to start with?


Same here!


----------



## EVH78

Watching football last night I had three (!) video dropouts. I have not had any audio nor video dropouts for months, wondering if that is firmware related. Will install beta 2 tonight and see if that helps. Will push HDMI cables in before Jim walks around the block 😂


----------



## gdfein

Had some sort of power issue over the past 24-48h and it caused my cyber power UPS to shut down. My UPS supports my LRP5348, Trinnov and NAS and rack fans. Never tripped the battery alarm as the UPS just shut off during a time the theater wasn’t in use. 

Went to trouble shoot things today and couldn’t get a thing to boot right. C4 controller was wonky and pretty much frustrated he’ll out of me. Removed the UPS entirely as it’s not supposed to shut down that way and while trying to get the room up and running to watch some baseball I couldn’t get the LRP to boot. It would power on and blink when I pressed the remote but nothing output over hdmi to my PJ and switching inputs manually via the LRP remote vs C4 system was pointless. 

Power rebooted LRP a few times and same result. 

Currently running the LRP firmware update to the latest non beta version 090121 as it had been a bit since I updated mine and maybe by loading latest FW and reloading my config file I can make this thing behave. Stay tuned. 

All my gear is rack mounted in a closet behind my screen and accessed from outside the theater. It is such a pain in the ass to not be able to update gear over the web with a network connection like pretty much any basic TV can these days. Both my Sony and JVC projectors lack this user friendliness too and need a special format usb inserted at boot and require me to get a step ladder and move furniture. These devices have Ethernet and IP addresses for control, just think useability needs more consideration.


----------



## gdfein

So my LRP seems to be having issues. Reboot it and power it on and the LED flashes blue/red for about a minute and then goes solid blue with no picture. 

I’ve loaded the latest stable firmware non beta that supposedly fixes this issue to no avail. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## DigitalAV

gdfein said:


> So my LRP seems to be having issues. Reboot it and power it on and the LED flashes blue/red for about a minute and then goes solid blue with no picture.
> 
> I’ve loaded the latest stable firmware non beta that supposedly fixes this issue to no avail.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Dang really sorry to hear that, have you tried a boot mode update?

_For a "Boot Mode Update" set up as for a normal update, then when ready and just before clicking Start, remove Radiance Pro wall __power and then restore power. Do not turn the unit on. Click Start within 10 seconds of restoring Radiance Pro power. _


----------



## patrick harkin

gdfein said:


> Had some sort of power issue over the past 24-48h and it caused my cyber power UPS to shut down. My UPS supports my LRP5348, Trinnov and NAS and rack fans. Never tripped the battery alarm as the UPS just shut off during a time the theater wasn’t in use.
> 
> Went to trouble shoot things today and couldn’t get a thing to boot right. C4 controller was wonky and pretty much frustrated he’ll out of me. Removed the UPS entirely as it’s not supposed to shut down that way and while trying to get the room up and running to watch some baseball I couldn’t get the LRP to boot. It would power on and blink when I pressed the remote but nothing output over hdmi to my PJ and switching inputs manually via the LRP remote vs C4 system was pointless.
> 
> Power rebooted LRP a few times and same result.
> 
> Currently running the LRP firmware update to the latest non beta version 090121 as it had been a bit since I updated mine and maybe by loading latest FW and reloading my config file I can make this thing behave. Stay tuned.
> 
> All my gear is rack mounted in a closet behind my screen and accessed from outside the theater. It is such a pain in the ass to not be able to update gear over the web with a network connection like pretty much any basic TV can these days. Both my Sony and JVC projectors lack this user friendliness too and need a special format usb inserted at boot and require me to get a step ladder and move furniture. These devices have Ethernet and IP addresses for control, just think useability needs more consideration.


Disconnect everything connected to the LRP, let it sit for a minute, reconnect and power on.


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## jrp

gdfein said:


> Had some sort of power issue over the past 24-48h and it caused my cyber power UPS to shut down. My UPS supports my LRP5348, Trinnov and NAS and rack fans. Never tripped the battery alarm as the UPS just shut off during a time the theater wasn’t in use.
> 
> Went to trouble shoot things today and couldn’t get a thing to boot right. C4 controller was wonky and pretty much frustrated he’ll out of me. Removed the UPS entirely as it’s not supposed to shut down that way and while trying to get the room up and running to watch some baseball I couldn’t get the LRP to boot. It would power on and blink when I pressed the remote but nothing output over hdmi to my PJ and switching inputs manually via the LRP remote vs C4 system was pointless.
> 
> Power rebooted LRP a few times and same result.
> 
> Currently running the LRP firmware update to the latest non beta version 090121 as it had been a bit since I updated mine and maybe by loading latest FW and reloading my config file I can make this thing behave. Stay tuned. ....


I have had a customer with the "flashing LED" after power on happen after something occurred in his system. This means the Pro thinks the I/O chip flash ROMs are not reporting having the microcode and need to be programed.

To add to what Patrick said, I suggest the following, which resolved the issue for the customer:

Disconnect the Pro from power and it sit for an hour (this is in case the power surge "latched up" an integrated circuit. This is where the parasitic PNP transistor in the substrate - usually I/O logic - turns on creating an always low impedance loop. This can take some time to let loose). I do not know how long the latch up can last. Might only be a minute, but might be longer. Leaving it disconnected overnight while likely way longer than needed would not be unreasonable to insure the latch up is gone (assuming there is one).
[EDIT] Patrick just reminded me that HDMI cables should be removed when leaving in the Radiance Pro in the off state to try to recover from a latch up. This is because the HDMI standby power from the source can maintain the latch up condition. So make sure no HDMI cables are connected when power is removed for the above. [END EDIT]
Do a Boot Mode update to the Beta 2. This is same as normal except right before clicking Start disconnect and restore power. Then click Start.
When the update completes disconnect power
Connect power and turn on.
Once LED flashing goes solid blue wait a few seconds and disconnect power.
Wait a couple minutes and repeat the last step. Might take a couple times to get the flashing to not happen.
If the flashing LED eventually does not happen, the unit should boot and pass video unless a chip was damaged or your configuration was corrupted. If no video after unit boots and solid blue LED, do a temporary factory reset (MENU 0999) to see if the configuration was corrupted by the power event (it happens). If you do not Save you can get back to your Saved settings by going to Standby and back on.

If after a few tries the flashing LED keeps happening then I would have to believe one of the I/O chips was taken out by your power event, and so cannot report the flash ROM as being programmed to the Pro software. In this event you can email me at lumagen.com support and we can discuss options.


----------



## Clark Burk

UPS battery backups have a useful life of up to 3-5 years depending on operating conditions such as temperature, humidity and how often they are cycled. After that time the likelyhood of an inverter failure is higher with the possibilities of wonky electronic issues. I would not connect system power to a UPS. The only components I would consider connecting are the lamp based projector as allowing the cooldown in the event of a power failure would be beneficial and perhaps the NAS to preserve HDD longevity and reliability.


----------



## gdfein

Thanks for the input. I had already done boot mode update to 9/2021 with no luck and just tried to beta 2 with no luck but I did not unplug hdmi, and rs232 cables from LRP or let the LRP sit unplugged. 

About to try the prescribed approach in post 16145 now. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gdfein

@jrp, sent you an email tonite. Let’s connect tomorrow if your avail to figure out next steps as my 5348 is unresponsive after a dozen power cycles following the beta2 update. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

gdfein said:


> @jrp, sent you an email tonight. Let’s connect tomorrow if your avail to figure out next steps as my 5348 is unresponsive after a dozen power cycles following the beta2 update.


Unfortunately it sounds like your UPS power event took out at least one of the HDMI I/O chips in your Radiance Pro 5348.

I responded to your email, and left a vmail.


----------



## Bill DePalma

jrp said:


> Random comment of the day:
> 
> For 16:9 content on a 2.35 screen the NLS center section stretch is 18%. This is noticeable, but many do not find it to be objectionable. If you are like me, this is a bit much, and that does not take into consideration the sides with even more stretch. If you agree with me, there is a middle ground.
> 
> If you like NLS, or you always want perfectly square pixels, you can stop reading here. If you are intrigued, please read on.
> 
> Rather than using NLS, use the "output aspect per input aspect" feature (Output->Style->Style0>Aspect->Output Aspect per Input Aspect) to program a modest linear stretch that to most people is not noticeable. You can pity my friends who I have used as unknowing test subjects to determine what is a reasonable horizontal stretch and what is too much.
> 
> At 18% linear I have had people note the image did not look quite right. However, when I dropped to 10% horizontal linear stretch, no one has ever commented, even when asked pointblank if they noticed anything "different." Even knowing there is a 10% horizontal stretch, I find typical content looks good.
> 
> As an example, a 10% stretch for 16:9 content on a 2.35 screen can be achieved by telling the Radiance Pro that when the input aspect is 16:9, the output aspect is 2.13 (even though the screen really is 2.35). This uses a linear stretch (which I prefer to NLS), uses more of the screen area for a larger more immersive image, and has smaller black side-bars. You can experiment for the 16:9 input case with 2.1 for a bit more stretch, or 2.16 for a bit less.
> 
> See if you like it, or not. If you do, you can also try:
> 
> Content Programmed output aspect
> 4:3 2.13
> 16:9 2.13
> 1.90 2.14
> 2.00 2.15
> 2.20 2.20 (so 2.20 fills the 2.35 screen with a 7% stretch)
> 2.35 2.35
> 2.40 2.40
> 
> In addition, it is nice that this works with Image-Based Auto Aspect.
> 
> ======
> 
> Another option if you have not chosen your screen yet, and you are okay with some stretch, and a bit of side cropping for 2.35 and 2.40 content, choose a 2.1 aspect screen. I have now convinced a few people who split their time equally between 16:9 content, and movies, that a 2.1 aspect screen is a reasonable choice. Let's do the math:
> 
> Content Programmed output aspect
> 4:3 1.90
> 16:9 1.90
> 1.90 1.90
> 2.00 2.00
> 2.20 2.20 (about 5% vertical stretch)
> 2.35 2.35 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
> 2.40 2.40 (but crop some off the left and right to keep vertical stretch smaller)
> 
> This mixes horizontal stretch, with vertical stretch and cropping of the sides. I considered a 2.1 aspect screen for the Lumagen Demo theater. However, since I am 95% movies, I went with a 2.40 Stewart StudioTek 130.
> 
> If you want to mix in NLS for the 16:9 content to fill the 2.1 screen, using auto-aspect, select "NLS when applicable," and set the output aspect to the actual 2.10 aspect ratio for 16:9 content in the output Style0 aspect menu. Then make sure to adjust the center section stretch to about 10% for the 16:9 content.
> 
> =====
> 
> I completely understand videophiles wanting square pixels to stay square, and in fact that is how I currently have the Lumagen Demo Theater configured. However, I also understand wanting to "fill the screen" with minimal compromise and this is the reason for my post here.


I often refer to this post by Jim when I am confused about setup on my 2.1 screen. Recently I accidentally did a factory reset and did not back up my settings (I hate myself). My problem has been with 235/240 content not filling the width of my screen. I use the numbers in the above post and works great except for 235/240 content. I also use the full raster 4096 output for the light gain advantage. Also, I am on the latest beta FW and trying to make use of the new letterbox "top" command. Everything works except I cannot seem to fill my 2.1 screen width anymore. Just wondering what I might be overlooking. My goal is to maximize the output width of my screen for 235/240 but not stretch to fill the screen vertically. So I use shrink to correct the image. any thoughts? thanks


----------



## jrp

Bill DePalma said:


> I often refer to this post by Jim when I am confused about setup on my 2.1 screen. Recently I accidentally did a factory reset and did not back up my settings (I hate myself). My problem has been with 235/240 content not filling the width of my screen. I use the numbers in the above post and works great except for 235/240 content. I also use the full raster 4096 output for the light gain advantage. Also, I am on the latest beta FW and trying to make use of the new letterbox "top" command. Everything works except I cannot seem to fill my 2.1 screen width anymore. Just wondering what I might be overlooking. My goal is to maximize the output width of my screen for 235/240 but not stretch to fill the screen vertically. So I use shrink to correct the image. any thoughts? thanks


The following assumes you are at factory reset:

I suggest using the 4096x2160 output resolution for your 2.1 screen. For this enter MENU 0873, and then MENU 0877.

Then view a 16:9 image, select 16:9 as the source aspect, and then use your projector optical zoom to fill the screen width.

Set the output aspect to 2.10 in the Output->Styles->Style0->Single Output Aspect->Aspect = 2.10

Use the Output->Styles->Style0->Mask/Shrink->Shrink to adjust top and bottom shrink to 4.85% each (if overspill is balanced between above and below. You can adjust these as needed).

Save your changes.

Hopefully this gets you set up correctly. If not you can contact me at lumagen.com support.


----------



## Sittler27

Any updates on if JVC is actively addressing that HDMI issue between the NZ projectors and the LRPs?

I'm fine on the pre-prod firmware but it would be great to be able to try out the DI on some content too.


----------



## jrp

Sittler27 said:


> Any updates on if JVC is actively addressing that HDMI issue between the NZ projectors and the LRPs?
> 
> I'm fine on the pre-prod firmware but it would be great to be able to try out the DI on some content too.


Kris Deering posted that JVC found setting the JVC input color format manually eliminated the "flash" issue using the production JVC NZ software. Kris then tested this with his unit and so far it has eliminated the issue with the latest JVC NZ production software.

So the current data is, while there is an issue in the JVC NZ production software with "Auto" for source color format, you can work around this issue by manually setting to the color format. We recommend the Pro output be set to 4:2:2 (the default), and then in the JVC NZ menu manually select 4:2:2 as the color format.

You can try this for yourself by updating to the latest JVC NZ production software and manually programming the input color format in the NZ projector.


----------



## Erod

Am I understanding correctly that we should not have our LRPs connected to UPS attery backup devices? I had previously heard that it was a good idea, but perhaps not?


----------



## DigitalAV

Erod said:


> Am I understanding correctly that we should not have our LRPs connected to UPS attery backup devices? I had previously heard that it was a good idea, but perhaps not?


I'm also now paranoid about this. Currently using a Cyberpower PFC sinewave UPS with my Radiance Pro.


----------



## Clark Burk

My thinking is why do you need to extend the time before the LRP shuts down. If the power goes out it just turns off. I think a good quality surge protector is a good idea though. If I'm missing something here please let me know.


----------



## Hawks07

Clark Burk said:


> My thinking is why do you need to extend the time before the LRP shuts down. If the power goes out it just turns off. I think a good quality surge protector is a good idea though. If I'm missing something here please let me know.


You're right it's not necessary for the Lumagen. 
I plugged my Lumagen in the UPS simply because it was there and I ran out of outlets on my other surge protector, so maybe other people do the same.
I have since gotten another surge protector and only use the UPS for the projector.


----------



## DigitalAV

Clark Burk said:


> My thinking is why do you need to extend the time before the LRP shuts down. If the power goes out it just turns off. I think a good quality surge protector is a good idea though. If I'm missing something here please let me know.


Would the surge protection only outlets still be safe on a UPS or would those also be affected by an inverter failure?


----------



## MOberhardt

I lost a board on my radiance and receiver due to a clothes iron shorting. No ups but high level surge protection that didnt cut it. Sadly the lumagen was same circuit as iron, avr wasn't. So it must have travelled Lumagen, optic cable to avr via the copper in it. Projector was fine.


----------



## woofer

I run 2 of these gigawatt-pc-3-evo-se-power-conditioner - GrooveWorks Aust Pty Ltd

NEVER had any issues with any component connected to them !! ..and we get LOTS of power spikes/fluctuations where i live..


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

woofer said:


> I run 2 of these gigawatt-pc-3-evo-se-power-conditioner - GrooveWorks Aust Pty Ltd
> 
> NEVER had any issues with any component connected to them !! ..and we get LOTS of power spikes/fluctuations where i live..


$11k!!! 😳


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> Worth trying the HDCP delay as this is one issue that it can help. You need to test it out to know for sure though.


I tied setting HDCP delay to "2" and the green diamond hatch pattern issue worsened on initial handshake (never with subsequently switching video sources through the AVR). Disabling HDCP delay significantly reduced the issue to being intermittent.


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## jrp

docrog said:


> I tied setting HDCP delay to "2" and the green diamond hatch pattern issue worsened on initial handshake (never with subsequently switching video sources through the AVR). Disabling HDCP delay significantly reduced the issue to being intermittent.


I want to check what you are using for power on order (sorry if you already posted on this). When there are power on issues, we recommend the power on order as:

Projector
Wait 10 seconds for the projector HDMI to become active
Radiance Pro
Wait 5 seconds for the Radiance Pro HDMI to become active
Audio Processor
Generally no wait is needed here but a few seconds would not hurt
Sources

Using this power on order has helped initial turn on in a lot of systems. However each system is different and often all equipment can be turned on at the same time without issue (as is true in the Lumagen Demo Theater).

====

I suggest you have the Pro turn on to an unused input if possible. Then after the power up sequence, select the source you actually want using your control system. You program the Pro to automatically power up on a certain input in the MENU->Other_>On/Off Setup->Input Select menu. Select the unused input for both "from standby" and "power up" (I forget exact names). Also turn on "Delay Select" and then press OK and do a Save. After programming these settings, and your control system, try powering up. If you do not have a control system use your remotes to emulate the above.

====

Note that this power up order is not always the one that works best, but it works best in most systems.

Let us know if changing the power on order helps. If not, you can contact me at the lumagen.com support email.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I want to check what you are using for power on order (sorry if you already posted on this). When there are power on issues, we recommend the power on order as:
> 
> Projector
> Wait 10 seconds for the projector HDMI to become active
> Radiance Pro
> Wait 5 seconds for the Radiance Pro HDMI to become active
> Audio Processor
> Generally no wait is needed here but a few seconds would not hurt
> Sources
> 
> Using this power on order has helped initial turn on in a lot of systems. However each system is different and often all equipment can be turned on at the same time without issue (as is true in the Lumagen Demo Theater).
> 
> ====
> 
> I suggest you have the Pro turn on to an unused input if possible. Then after the power up sequence, select the source you actually want using your control system. You program the Pro to automatically power up on a certain input in the MENU->Other_>On/Off Setup->Input Select menu. Select the unused input for both "from standby" and "power up" (I forget exact names). Also turn on "Delay Select" and then press OK and do a Save. After programming these settings, and your control system, try powering up. If you do not have a control system use your remotes to emulate the above.
> 
> ====
> 
> Note that this power up order is not always the one that works best, but it works best in most systems.
> 
> Let us know if changing the power on order helps. If not, you can contact me at the lumagen.com support email.


Thanks for those guidelines, Jim. My current power up sequence is PJ (wait until it shows D-ILA logo) then power up the AVR. The RP is in the power "off" state (NOT "standby") and is turned on via the AVR trigger; there is NO audio processor after the RP. This RP state & trigger has been OK'd by you in the past. I only use 1 RP input (from the AVR), so I certainly could program the RP to turn on in 1 of the unused 3 input memories and manually switch to the active input after a further delay if the HDCP issue persists. Please note that the issue with the green diamond hatch HDMI had previously been *very* intermittent and only worsened with the first new Beta firmware update (made even worse when enabling HDCP delay). I'll give your suggestion a try this weekend.


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Thanks for those guidelines, Jim. My current power up sequence is PJ (wait until it shows D-ILA logo) then power up the AVR. The RP is in the power "off" state (NOT "standby") and is turned on via the AVR trigger; there is NO audio processor after the RP. This RP state & trigger has been OK'd by you in the past. I only use 1 RP input (from the AVR), so I certainly could program the RP to turn on in 1 of the unused 3 input memories and manually switch to the active input after a further delay if the HDCP issue persists. Please note that the issue with the green diamond hatch HDMI had previously been *very* intermittent and only worsened with the first new Beta firmware update (made even worse when enabling HDCP delay). I'll give your suggestion a try this weekend.


I didn't double check but recall you have the Sony VW5000ES. It has HDMI issues. We have a growing number of customers who are selling the VW5000ES and buying a different projector. Once they have, in the cases I know about the HDMI issues were eliminated once the projector was changed.

Any changes in the Pro Beta 2 from 090121 for the output are very small, and would be incidental and not to correct an issue, if "HDCP Delay" = Off. However, Pat did change a couple things if "HDCP delay" = On that might affect your system. These were to improve the HDCP timing for the command to start HDCP on the output chip. At this time we do not know of any bugs introduced that might cause the "HDCP fail" crosshatch pattern to come up more using Beta firmware with "HDCP delay" = Off. The change to HDCP delay should not make matters worse, but it is a possibility that for the VW5000ES "HDCP Delay" = On does have an effect.


----------



## jrp

We are planning add more aspect ratios to the supported source aspect list. We have these set pretty firmly, but I wanted to give people a chance to chime-in if they have comments on the new list.

Normal (current list):

1.33, LBOX, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40

Extended (planned list):

1.33, LBOX, 1.375, 1.66, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40, 2.55, 2.76

The new aspect will have a "ALT button" aspect selection, but only using the new Radiance Pro remote. For these to work you will need to have the New Radiance Pro remote, and enable the new Remote Control using selection menu item. RS232 commands for these will be the ALT character (#), followed by the appropriate button's ASCII character.

We plan for these to be supported by Auto Aspect detection/selection once the "Extended" list is enabled for that input memory. We do not yet have 1.375 content to test with and it is pretty close to 1.33. So 1.375 versus 1.33 is up in the air until we can do further testing.

If the "Extended Source Aspect" list is enabled for the active Input Memory, the new source aspects will be detected and reported by the ZQI24 Query (and Fullv4 Auto-change-report).

======== 

Adding these aspects is the first step in speeding up Auto Aspect. We wanted to get these in before we start on the speed-up efforts.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> *I didn't double check but recall you have the Sony VW5000ES*. It has HDMI issues. We have a growing number of customers who are selling the VW5000ES and buying a different projector. Once they have, in the cases I know about the HDMI issues were eliminated once the projector was changed.


His signature says JVC NX7. 

Btw seems pretty expensive way to fix hdmi issues if VW5000ES needs to be changed. Hopefully there are other options too.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> I didn't double check but recall you have the Sony VW5000ES.


FYI, I own the NX7, not the Sony PJ. I haven't had any additional handshake issues since disabling HDCP delay. I'll be downloading the Beta 2 update early this week and will comment if I experience any further green diamond hatch pattern issues.


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> His signature says JVC NX7.
> 
> Btw seems pretty expensive way to fix hdmi issues if VW5000ES needs to be changed. Hopefully there are other options too.


I do not pay much attention to signatures obviously.

The VW5000ES are changed out for other reasons. The HDMI working better on a new projector is just a footnote. We likely have hundreds of Radiance Pro units driving Sony VW5000ES projector working well in the field. However there have been a few "flyers" that have issues. These were mostly with very early VW5000ES units.


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

jrp said:


> We are planning add more aspect ratios to the supported source aspect list. We have these set pretty firmly, but I wanted to give people a chance to chime-in if they have comments on the new list.
> 
> Extended (planned list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 1.375, 1.66, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40, 2.55, 2.76
> 
> Adding these aspects is the first step in speeding up Auto Aspect. We wanted to get these in before we start on the speed-up efforts.


This has made me so happy!!! Does that mean that the 2.55 and 2.76 will provide full panel expansion to allow use of the even wider a-lenses? I would love to try out the 1.5x lens.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> Extended (planned list):
> 1.33, LBOX, 1.375, 1.66, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40, 2.55, 2.76


Fantastic news.

Wizard of Oz and Gone With the Wind use 1.37:1, and are perhaps the most important ones for the 1.375 ratio. There are also few titles in the 1.4-1.55 region, which looks to be the biggest "gap" in the numbers above - could the LBOX (which is a duplicate of 16:9?) be given over to those??


----------



## EVH78

Adding higher aspects is fantastic news!


----------



## HD-Dave

jrp said:


> We are planning add more aspect ratios to the supported source aspect list. We have these set pretty firmly, but I wanted to give people a chance to chime-in if they have comments on the new list.
> 
> Normal (current list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40
> 
> Extended (planned list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 1.375, 1.66, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40, 2.55, 2.76
> 
> The new aspect will have a "ALT button" aspect selection, but only using the new Radiance Pro remote. For these to work you will need to have the New Radiance Pro remote, and enable the new Remote Control using selection menu item. RS232 commands for these will be the ALT character (#), followed by the appropriate button's ASCII character.
> 
> We plan for these to be supported by Auto Aspect detection/selection once the "Extended" list is enabled for that input memory. We do not yet have 1.375 content to test with and it is pretty close to 1.33. So 1.375 versus 1.33 is up in the air until we can do further testing.
> 
> If the "Extended Source Aspect" list is enabled for the active Input Memory, the new source aspects will be detected and reported by the ZQI24 Query (and Fullv4 Auto-change-report).
> 
> ========
> 
> Adding these aspects is the first step in speeding up Auto Aspect. We wanted to get these in before we start on the speed-up efforts.


I am assuming that a programmable remote will be able to select the Extended Aspect ratios? Will the list of IR codes be sent to Harmony, yes I know they are "closing/winding down" and/or the HEX values be published for manual input?


----------



## Hitechee

jrp said:


> We are planning add more aspect ratios to the supported source aspect list. We have these set pretty firmly, but I wanted to give people a chance to chime-in if they have comments on the new list.
> 
> Normal (current list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40
> 
> Extended (planned list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 1.375, 1.66, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40, 2.55, 2.76
> 
> The new aspect will have a "ALT button" aspect selection, but only using the new Radiance Pro remote. For these to work you will need to have the New Radiance Pro remote, and enable the new Remote Control using selection menu item. RS232 commands for these will be the ALT character (#), followed by the appropriate button's ASCII character.
> 
> We plan for these to be supported by Auto Aspect detection/selection once the "Extended" list is enabled for that input memory. We do not yet have 1.375 content to test with and it is pretty close to 1.33. So 1.375 versus 1.33 is up in the air until we can do further testing.
> 
> If the "Extended Source Aspect" list is enabled for the active Input Memory, the new source aspects will be detected and reported by the ZQI24 Query (and Fullv4 Auto-change-report).
> 
> ========
> 
> Adding these aspects is the first step in speeding up Auto Aspect. We wanted to get these in before we start on the speed-up efforts.


----------



## Hitechee

Does this mean you have decided to work on speeding up auto-aspect next? Although that is a worthy upgrade and will be appreciated, you stated over a year and a half ago that you would be working on PIP/POP after the pipeline upgrade which at the time was estimated to be around 6 months. Unless the autoaspect speed up will be a very quick fix (on the order of weeks), request you stick to the previously stated plan to add the long-awaited PIP/POP feature.


----------



## jrp

YesAnotherTweet said:


> This has made me so happy!!! Does that mean that the 2.55 and 2.76 will provide full panel expansion to allow use of the even wider a-lenses? I would love to try out the 1.5x lens.


Currently the maximum output aspect allowed is 2.50. I asked Patrick to see if we can extend this to 2.76.

If doing so does not cause large changes to the FPGA design, we will increase the output aspect range. If the changes would be a lot of work we likely would put this on the "under consideration" list instead.

If we increase the range, then if the output aspect is set to 2.76, and you (or Auto Aspect) selects 2.76 source aspect, a 2.76 aspect source would then fill the active raster just like 2.40 does on a 2.40 screen.


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Fantastic news.
> 
> Wizard of Oz and Gone With the Wind use 1.37:1, and are perhaps the most important ones for the 1.375 ratio. There are also few titles in the 1.4-1.55 region, which looks to be the biggest "gap" in the numbers above - could the LBOX (which is a duplicate of 16:9?) be given over to those??


Thanks for your comments.

We have pretty much settled on the list. Given how few titles use those aspects, I think we would have you select the 5% zoom step, and manually zoom in for those seldom used aspect ratios.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> We are planning add more aspect ratios to the supported source aspect list. We have these set pretty firmly, but I wanted to give people a chance to chime-in if they have comments on the new list.
> 
> Normal (current list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40
> 
> Extended (planned list):
> 
> 1.33, LBOX, 1.375, 1.66, 16:9, 1.85, 1.90, 2.00, 2.10, 2.20, 2.35, 2.40, 2.55, 2.76
> 
> The new aspect will have a "ALT button" aspect selection, but only using the new Radiance Pro remote. For these to work you will need to have the New Radiance Pro remote, and enable the new Remote Control using selection menu item. RS232 commands for these will be the ALT character (#), followed by the appropriate button's ASCII character.
> 
> We plan for these to be supported by Auto Aspect detection/selection once the "Extended" list is enabled for that input memory. We do not yet have 1.375 content to test with and it is pretty close to 1.33. So 1.375 versus 1.33 is up in the air until we can do further testing.
> 
> If the "Extended Source Aspect" list is enabled for the active Input Memory, the new source aspects will be detected and reported by the ZQI24 Query (and Fullv4 Auto-change-report).
> 
> ========
> 
> Adding these aspects is the first step in speeding up Auto Aspect. We wanted to get these in before we start on the speed-up efforts.


Seems like I ran into a 2.66 AR movie recently, but can’t remember what it was… SJ


----------



## jrp

We currently plan on working on speeding up Auto Aspect next. I believe I can count on one hand those who want PiP/PoP (and I regret ever putting this in the desired feature list at all). I likely have over a hundred people who have asked me for faster Auto Aspect.

We prioritize based on the most benefit. No contest really.


----------



## jrp

SJHT said:


> Seems like I ran into a 2.66 AR movie recently, but can’t remember what it was… SJ


We considered 2.66, but there is very little content at the consumer level. So, it did not make the cut.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> We currently plan on working on speeding up Auto Aspect next. I believe I can count on one hand those who want PiP/PoP (and I regret ever putting this in the desired feature list at all). I likely have over a hundred people who have asked me for faster Auto Aspect.
> 
> We prioritize based on the most benefit. No contest really.


I was one that wanted PIP/POP, but gave up since moving to a 5348… Take me off the list.


----------



## DigitalAV

I'm still very interested in PoP and it's the primary reason I bought a 44xx unit over a 42xx. I didn't realize it wasn't available yet until after I bought it. Feel like PoP on a scope screen with sports on one side & TV or playing a video game on the other could be pretty amazing.


----------



## Vinturbo

I hope the refinement of the DTM continues! it is certainly very important for all RP users


----------



## Hitechee

jrp said:


> We currently plan on working on speeding up Auto Aspect next. I believe I can count on one hand those who want PiP/PoP (and I regret ever putting this in the desired feature list at all). I likely have over a hundred people who have asked me for faster Auto Aspect.
> 
> We prioritize based on the most benefit. No contest really.





DigitalAV said:


> I'm still very interested in PoP and it's the primary reason I bought a 44xx unit over a 42xx. I didn't realize it wasn't available yet until after I bought it. Feel like PoP on a scope screen with sports on one side & TV or playing a video game on the other could be pretty amazing.


Jim,
It's one thing to put it on a desired feature list, and another for the president of the company to say it is next on the list to prospective customers (after the pipeline development). I get that development takes time and the pipeline development took much longer than originally anticipated. However, I, too, purchased a 44xx rather than a 42XX based on the planned PIP/POP functionality. (Although my dealer warned me not to count on it). I, too, would like faster auto aspect as well ( I use a CIH 2.35 screen and stand to gain as much or more than most), but I at least have auto aspect capability now whereas there is no PIP/POP capability. No guest in my theater ever complained about the auto aspect being too slow when starting a movie, but often would like to see a second game on the screen when over for sports. Now, you're delaying even more by adding more aspect ratios before starting the auto aspect speed-up. Can we just get the PIP/POP done so that basic functionality exists before going back for all the tiniest of improvements? It's not like I don't benefit from many of these improvements as well, but they are mostly perfectionist type improvements rather than key functionality. Adding PIP/POP is a key feature like HDR tone mapping and a basic function that video processors have been doing since they've been around. I've never said much about this before, but I don't feel like I should have to be a "squeaky wheel" to get this feature developed instead of it being continually pushed down the road. Thanks for listening.


----------



## jrp

Hitechee:

We always prioritize new features on a cost/benefit analysis. Things changed from when we talked. Even then I was always careful to say what we hoped to be doing in the near term. I have always been careful to never promise a feature until it was done (or nearly so). I never committed a timetable to PiP/PoP being completed. When new requests came, PiP/PoP did not make the cut. Simple as that.

The list of people wanting PiP/PoP might be down to four after SJHT's post. It is a HUGE effort for four people. Sorry that is just the truth.

PiP/PoP is still on our list. It is actually getting close to the top. We will get to it when it makes sense to start work on it. Sorry this does not meet your request.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> We have pretty much settled on the list. Given how few titles use those aspects, I think we would have you select the 5% zoom step, and manually zoom in for those seldom used aspect ratios.


Understood, and seems reasonable. Although the idea of having to do anything manually is so old school


----------



## HD-Dave

jrp said:


> We currently plan on working on speeding up Auto Aspect next. I believe I can count on one hand those who want PiP/PoP (and I regret ever putting this in the desired feature list at all). I likely have over a hundred people who have asked me for faster Auto Aspect.
> 
> We prioritize based on the most benefit. No contest really.


I also would like PIP/POP. I used this on my previous XD and Vision and it was useful


----------



## stephenbr

Faster Auto Aspect would be top of my list for any next update


----------



## EVH78

PIP would be great and faster Auto Aspect too. No rush, as long as we get there...


----------



## gwthacker

jrp said:


> Hitechee:
> 
> We always prioritize new features on a cost/benefit analysis. Things changed from when we talked. Even then I was always careful to say what we hoped to be doing in the near term. I have always been careful to never promise a feature until it was done (or nearly so). I never committed a timetable to PiP/PoP being completed. When new requests came, PiP/PoP did not make the cut. Simple as that.
> 
> The list of people wanting PiP/PoP might be down to four after SJHT's post. It is a HUGE effort for four people. Sorry that is just the truth.
> 
> PiP/PoP is still on our list. It is actually getting close to the top. We will get to it when it makes sense to start work on it. Sorry this does not meet your request.





jrp said:


> We currently plan on working on speeding up Auto Aspect next. I believe I can count on one hand those who want PiP/PoP (and I regret ever putting this in the desired feature list at all). I likely have over a hundred people who have asked me for faster Auto Aspect.
> 
> We prioritize based on the most benefit. No contest really.


Add me to the hand count for PiP. Great for people who are watching multiple sporting events


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mike_WI

I would like POP/PIP. Obviously I've lived without it for a while, but would be interesting.


----------



## Clark Burk

gwthacker said:


> Add me to the hand count for PiP. Great for people who are watching multiple sporting events
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That sounds good but how do you plan on getting multiple feeds of sporting events to input into the LRP? I’ve thought about this but no Idea how to accomplish it.


----------



## Clark Burk

That and do realize the small size of the Pip/PoP will be less than DVD resolution at whatever your normal viewing position is.


----------



## jrp

HD-Dave said:


> I also would like PIP/POP. I used this on my previous XD and Vision and it was useful


Thanks for the feedback. We may be back up to five who want it. 

Don't get me wrong, if PiP/PoP is there I expect more than five will use it. However, for most people, it is an afterthought feature, and we have maybe five diehard PiP/PoP fans.

And of course the number five is a WAG based on emails and discussions. My point is the order-of-magnitude of people wanting faster Auto-Aspect versus the order-of-magnitude of diehard PiP/PoP fans.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> That sounds good but how do you plan on getting multiple feeds of sporting events to input into the LRP? I’ve thought about this but no Idea how to accomplish it.


The 444X models (only) have two independent video input paths to the FPGA. Each input goes to a Low-Voltage-Differential-Signaling (LVDS) crossbar switch. This can take signals from HDMI input chips (which are LVDS signals) and switch them to one of two switch outputs independently. While we test both paths, we use only the primary path in current software.

I have noted this before but for 18 GHz input daughter-cards PiP/PoP can _only_ be between inputs connected to different input daughter-cards. Each input daughter-card has two inputs (e.g. 1&2, 3&4, etc.). So, for 18 GHz cards, you will not be able to PiP/PoP between input 1 and 2, but you would be able to PiP/PoP between input 1 (or 2), and any input 3 through 8 on a 4446. For 9 GHz inputs, we may allow 9 GHz inputs to PiP/PoP any combination since each input for 9 GHz cards has its own input chip. For the 9 GHz inputs this is a software decision of if we go through more software work for 9 GHz cards when most now have 18 GHz input cards.

Also, for the record, I will say we plan on the most basic PiP/PoP support possible. Not sure yet what this means exactly, but we are not planning to spend a lot of gates to do everything possible for PiP and PoP. One example is we will _not_ be supporting an "alpha blended" PiP overlay on top of the main image.


----------



## EVH78

Jim:

Would two independent 4K HDR input sources work with DTM for PIP? I guess that´s a tough one....


----------



## dlinsley

Clark Burk said:


> That sounds good but how do you plan on getting multiple feeds of sporting events to input into the LRP? I’ve thought about this but no Idea how to accomplish it.


I have a Roku Ultra on input 2 and an AppleTV on input 3. I'll be able use YouTubeTV on both with different channels or YouTubeTV on one and Peacock on the other to watch two Premier League games.


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> The 444X models (only) have two independent video input paths to the FPGA. Each input goes to a Low-Voltage-Differential-Signaling (LVDS) crossbar switch. This can take signals from HDMI input chips (which are LVDS signals) and switch them to one of two switch outputs independently. While we test both paths, we use only the primary path in current software.
> 
> I have noted this before but for 18 GHz input daughter-cards PiP/PoP can _only_ be between inputs connected to different input daughter-cards. Each input daughter-card has two inputs (e.g. 1&2, 3&4, etc.). So, for 18 GHz cards, you will not be able to PiP/PoP between input 1 and 2, but you would be able to PiP/PoP between input 1 (or 2), and any input 3 through 8 on a 4446. For 9 GHz inputs, we may allow 9 GHz inputs to PiP/PoP any combination since each input for 9 GHz cards has its own input chip. For the 9 GHz inputs this is a software decision of if we go through more software work for 9 GHz cards when most now have 18 GHz input cards.
> 
> Also, for the record, I will say we plan on the most basic PiP/PoP support possible. Not sure yet what this means exactly, but we are not planning to spend a lot of gates to do everything possible for PiP and PoP. One example is we will _not_ be supporting an "alpha blended" PiP overlay on top of the main image.


FWIW for me PiP/PoP is gravy, and while I'm very much looking forward to it, I'd prefer pretty much all other outstanding features such as DTM subtitle zone masking be given priority. So, count my vote as "no rush."


----------



## MDesigns

Clark Burk said:


> That and do realize the small size of the Pip/PoP will be less than DVD resolution at whatever your normal viewing position is.


Hmm...you could fit 16(!) DVD resolution images to an 4K screen, but maybe that is not the best usage scenario.

Four 1080p images in an 16:9 4K screen might be nice. Or two images side by side on a scope screen. Formula 1 with one main video + one cockpit view would be awesome to me.

Also just realized that I am really not sure what the pip and pop mean. Just thought the basic idea of split screen showing multiple sources with identical sizes on same screen.


----------



## gwthacker

Clark Burk said:


> That and do realize the small size of the Pip/PoP will be less than DVD resolution at whatever your normal viewing position is.


I don’t think this is a big issue, given that most people would use for sporting events


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Clark Burk

Maybe not. I know I would not like watching football on a small screen in low res.


----------



## Clark Burk

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the only LRPs that would be able to do PIP/POP if enabled in firmware are the 444x units. I think the 42xx and 5xxx units are excluded.


----------



## c.kingsley

DigitalAV said:


> Would the surge protection only outlets still be safe on a UPS or would those also be affected by an inverter failure?


I use these, they're relatively cheap and they are often used with copying machines in office environments: https://www.amazon.com/ESP-Surge-Protector-Filter-Monitor/dp/B071P3P9XM


----------



## gwthacker

Clark Burk said:


> Maybe not. I know I would not like watching football on a small screen in low res.


I hear you. But on my screen - even a smaller PiP is probably the size of TVs a lot of people watch . And resolution is less noticeable on the smaller screen. Could you imagine March Madness? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jrp

EVH78 said:


> Would two independent 4K HDR input sources work with DTM for PIP? I guess that´s a tough one....


Good question. The answer is no.

The following is stream-of-consciousness thoughts on PiP/PoP:

PiP means Picture-In-Picture. That is a secondary source image overlays a portion of the main source active raster.

PoP means Picture-Outside-Picture. This means the main window size is reduced and the secondary video input image is placed beside it.

There will be the main source, and a secondary source. So, no more than two sources visible on the screen.

PiP/PoP is meant for SDR programming (e.g. football game and door-cam, or two sports games). When we designed the Radiance Pro 444X (in 2014), consumer HDR video was not a thing. DTM uses a lot of FPGA resources. These came from the gate reserve I designed in by choosing a larger than needed (at the time) FPGA. We still have room in the FPGA, but not enough for a second full DTM circuit for a PiP window. Even if there was I would not use gates for DTM for PiP or PoP windows.

If PiP/PoP is active, DTM will be limited to the main window. So you could watch an HDR movie with an SDR door-cam in the PiP Window. We have yet to decide exactly what we will do if the secondary window is HDR. For an HDR secondary window, we might apply a default Bt.2084 to Gamma 2.4 curve so it would not look horrible, but it would not have DTM. Or perhaps run it through the DTM transfer function based on the main window analysis. This may be the simplest since we never contemplated HDR (since it did not exist) when we thought to provide the second video input path for PiP/PoP.

I expect a 4k source will work in the PiP Window, but it will be down-sampled aggressively to fit in the PiP window, or PoP region. For PoP, the secondary window, will certainly be no bigger than a HD Window (half-width of the 4k output raster). I am considering limiting the PiP window to 480p.

There is the issue of frame rate. This was an issue even for the RadianceXE which had PiP/PoP. If the main window is input and output at 24 Hertz, we would have to output the secondary window at that rate to avoid an output restart for a PiP/PoP source that is 50 or 60 Hertz. This is the same as was done for the Radiance XE. For those that want a more seamless PiP experience they would use it only for 60 (or 50) Hertz main window output, and 60 (or 50) Hertz PiP/PoP source.

Since we work to minimize video latency in the Radiance Pro, there might be some tearing in the PiP/PoP window, since it is not genlocked to the main window. We will always optimize for the main window.

The aspect ratio of the PiP window is also a Pandora's box. I hope we can keep the aspect ratio for all cases, but there may be cases where the PiP or PoP window aspect ratio is not exactly as expected to save FPGA resources. As I have said we plan the minimum effort we can manage for PiP/PoP. The intension has always been for HD, and now UHD, sports, and other, TV programming. These are always 16:9 SDR sources. I expect PiP/PoP aspect ratio to work well if both the main and secondary window sources are 16:9.

And there are a lot more things to deal with under the hood. So, as you can see, PiP and PoP are going to be a major pain. I wish I had not ever considered them for the Radiance Pro. However, we will make "commercially reasonable" efforts to implement them. I know Pat is thrilled at the prospect. Not!

=====

As just asked, PiP/PoP will apply _only_ to 444X models. There will never be PiP or PoP for 424X or 5XXX models. They do not have a secondary video input path.


----------



## MOberhardt

I'm too old to even understand the use for pip. If I accidentally activated it on a tv, I found it as irritating as on screen advertising and station logos (which stopped me watching all commercial tv or cable in Australia back in the late 90s...).


----------



## DigitalAV

jrp said:


> Good question. The answer is no.
> 
> The following is stream-of-consciousness thoughts on PiP/PoP:
> 
> PiP means Picture-In-Picture. That is a secondary source image overlays a portion of the main source active raster.
> 
> PoP means Picture-Outside-Picture. This means the main window size is reduced and the secondary video input image is placed beside it.
> 
> There will be the main source, and a secondary source. So, no more than two sources visible on the screen.
> 
> PiP/PoP is meant for SDR programming (e.g. football game and door-cam, or two sports games). When we designed the Radiance Pro 444X (in 2014), consumer HDR video was not a thing. DTM uses a lot of FPGA resources. These came from the gate reserve I designed in by choosing a larger than needed (at the time) FPGA. We still have room in the FPGA, but not enough for a second full DTM circuit for a PiP window. Even if there was I would not use gates for DTM for PiP or PoP windows.
> 
> If PiP/PoP is active, DTM will be limited to the main window. So you could watch an HDR movie with an SDR door-cam in the PiP Window. We have yet to decide exactly what we will do if the secondary window is HDR. For an HDR secondary window, we might apply a default Bt.2084 to Gamma 2.4 curve so it would not look horrible, but it would not have DTM. Or perhaps run it through the DTM transfer function based on the main window analysis. This may be the simplest since we never contemplated HDR (since it did not exist) when we thought to provide the second video input path for PiP/PoP.
> 
> I expect a 4k source will work in the PiP Window, but it will be down-sampled aggressively to fit in the PiP window, or PoP region. For PoP, the secondary window, will certainly be no bigger than a HD Window (half-width of the 4k output raster). I am considering limiting the PiP window to 480p.
> 
> There is the issue of frame rate. This was an issue even for the RadianceXE which had PiP/PoP. If the main window is input and output at 24 Hertz, we would have to output the secondary window at that rate to avoid an output restart for a PiP/PoP source that is 50 or 60 Hertz. This is the same as was done for the Radiance XE. For those that want a more seamless PiP experience they would use it only for 60 (or 50) Hertz main window output, and 60 (or 50) Hertz PiP/PoP source.
> 
> Since we work to minimize video latency in the Radiance Pro, there might be some tearing in the PiP/PoP window, since it is not genlocked to the main window. We will always optimize for the main window.
> 
> The aspect ratio of the PiP window is also a Pandora's box. I hope we can keep the aspect ratio for all cases, but there may be cases where the PiP or PoP window aspect ratio is not exactly as expected to save FPGA resources. As I have said we plan the minimum effort we can manage for PiP/PoP. The intension has always been for HD, and now UHD, sports, and other, TV programming. These are always 16:9 SDR sources. I expect PiP/PoP aspect ratio to work well if both the main and secondary window sources are 16:9.
> 
> And there are a lot more things to deal with under the hood. So, as you can see, PiP and PoP are going to be a major pain. I wish I had not ever considered them for the Radiance Pro. However, we will make "commercially reasonable" efforts to implement them. I know Pat is thrilled at the prospect. Not!
> 
> =====
> 
> As just asked, PiP/PoP will apply _only_ to 444X models. There will never be PiP or PoP for 424X or 5XXX models. They do not have a secondary video input path.


Perhaps what you and Patrick learn doing PiP can be leveraged to other overlays like subtitles on top of a DTM image

PiP/PoP's gonna have a "begrudge" slider always set to high lol


----------



## aarontoulmin77

Just don't sacrifice "soft edges" for PIP LOL


----------



## woofer

MOberhardt said:


> I'm too old to even understand the use for pip. If I accidentally activated it on a tv, I found it as irritating as on screen advertising and station logos (which stopped me watching all commercial tv or cable in Australia back in the late 90s...).


Yep...PIP/POP i would have to say *for me* would be the absolute least desirable feature i would like to see implemented on the RP..


----------



## alv

Also not a fan of Pip/POP. I tried it when I had a satellite system that could do it but never actually watched something with it for more than a trial. As MOberhardt said, maybe it is an age thing.


----------



## Naiera

I finally had my 4442 calibrated and was playing around with HDR mapping last night. Is 50/4/Auto/260 for UHD Blu-ray (based on Stand By Me) and 20/4/Auto/150 for the Apple TV 4K (based on the third episode of Ms. Marvel) completely insane? Stand By Me was fine all the way through, but I might not have been completely convinced by the episode of Tehran I watched after Ms. Marvel. I would very much appreciate some input here, based on what is common for projectors like mine.

Also, am I correct in assuming that the scaler would shut down on its own if it gets dangerously warm? When the fan runs at 4 or 5 speed (definitely at 5) it seems to reach a certain velocity that makes it emit what's almost a beeping sound that might not be very loud, but I can hear it over my Sony 270ES' fan and it really bugs me. Setting minimum speed to 3 eliminates that, and coupled with the external fan I have blowing air into it, the heat levels seem to be manageable.


----------



## MOberhardt

aarontoulmin77 said:


> Just don't sacrifice "soft edges" for PIP LOL


Yeah, everyone please remember the reason most of us got into a Lumagen. Image quality. What has ADD centric distractions to do with that? If your eyes are wanting the distraction of multiple video streams, maximizing image quality obviously isn't a concern.

If a firmware version with some pip trinket in it detracts from quality of a single stream image, I will not be touching that firmware, thank you very much. If though pip activate made the picture look like rubbish if you were wanting to use it, fine.


----------



## Clark Burk

I can understand why some owners of the 444x models might feel forgotten. It’s not like Lumagen didn’t give a few hints that the PiP/PoP feature would likely be coming. The units had a secondary video path and even the remotes had buttons for PiP/PoP on the bottom row. If I had purchased one of the 444x units at the higher cost with hopes that the feature eventually would be coming I’d likely be a bit disappointed at the change in direction. 
My LRP doesn’t have the capability of using this feature if it was enabled in firmware so I would be one to hope resources would be directed in a different direction. With the development of the new 5xxx series there was some mention of firmwares being developed to cater to the abilities of specific models on a fee basis so perhaps that might be a path forward for the 444x model.


----------



## MDesigns

I can't see any real use case for PIP in my use. But "POP" using two equal size images side by side on a scope screen might be a thing for some sports with multiple feeds. Apple TV has some kind of Pip too, so maybe it can be done on the source side. But doesn't work with multiple source devices then.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> Perhaps what you and Patrick learn doing PiP can be leveraged to other overlays like subtitles on top of a DTM image
> 
> PiP/PoP's gonna have a "begrudge" slider always set to high lol


Unfortunately PiP/PoP efforts will not help with subtitles or other overlays. The PiP/PoP uses a secondary video pipeline. The overlays use a graphics memory and a separate path that is injected into the video near the end of the video pipeline.

I can certainly see the few people who bought the 444X series partly for PiP/PoP wanting it added. I can also see that the many who do not care about PiP/PoP at all not wanting time or gates spent on them. We will try to have a good balance of a useful PiP/PoP that is consistent with our intent when the Radiance Pro was introduced in 2015 (SDR 16:9 sources for both main and secondary window), while working to keep the time and FPGA resources spent to a minimum.


----------



## Naiera

Naiera said:


> I finally had my 4442 calibrated and was playing around with HDR mapping last night. Is 50/4/Auto/260 for UHD Blu-ray (based on Stand By Me) and 20/4/Auto/150 for the Apple TV 4K (based on the third episode of Ms. Marvel) completely insane? Stand By Me was fine all the way through, but I might not have been completely convinced by the episode of Tehran I watched after Ms. Marvel. I would very much appreciate some input here, based on what is common for projectors like mine.
> 
> Also, am I correct in assuming that the scaler would shut down on its own if it gets dangerously warm? When the fan runs at 4 or 5 speed (definitely at 5) it seems to reach a certain velocity that makes it emit what's almost a beeping sound that might not be very loud, but I can hear it over my Sony 270ES' fan and it really bugs me. Setting minimum speed to 3 eliminates that, and coupled with the external fan I have blowing air into it, the heat levels seem to be manageable.


And just so I'm sure we're discussing the same thing, my LRP is one of the big ones that looks like this on the back. Anything over 6 is too much (though it's fine if it goes there once in a while), but definitely 5 and possibly 4 makes a weird noise, as described above.









And I wouldn't be opposed to someone telling me exactly which model it is I have 😅 Gordon wrote 4442 on the invoice, but I haven't been able to verify this doing the google thing and such.


----------



## Naiera

As far as the HDR tone mapping issue goes, I have the Sony 270/295ES running at low lamp mode, 12 feet from a 108" Lissau TrueColor ISF screen with neutral gain. I measured about 82 lux in the white area on the Apple TV 4K sending out SDR.


----------



## dlinsley

Naiera said:


> I finally had my 4442 calibrated and was playing around with HDR mapping last night. Is 50/4/Auto/260 for UHD Blu-ray (based on Stand By Me) and 20/4/Auto/150 for the Apple TV 4K (based on the third episode of Ms. Marvel) completely insane? Stand By Me was fine all the way through, but I might not have been completely convinced by the episode of Tehran I watched after Ms. Marvel. I would very much appreciate some input here, based on what is common for projectors like mine.





Naiera said:


> As far as the HDR tone mapping issue goes, I have the Sony 270/295ES running at low lamp mode, 12 feet from a 108" Lissau TrueColor ISF screen with neutral gain. I measured about 82 lux in the white area on the Apple TV 4K sending out SDR.


82 lux is only 26 nits. You can use the test patterns in the Lumagen to display a 100 IRE window to measure full white to check this is correct, as it is very low, but I know the Sony lamp projectors are quite low in low lamp (but you have a small screen).

Given the 4442 was calibrated, did your calibrator not set it up for HDR? Or did they just profile/correct the projector? With only 26 nits, I can see the Max Light value of 150 you have as being correct. The (presumably) DPad of 4 is very high, and I'd be bumping that down to at most 2 and likely 1 given you need the light and won't notice the intra-scene highlight compression with such little light anyway.


----------



## DigitalAV

Naiera said:


> And just so I'm sure we're discussing the same thing, my LRP is one of the big ones that looks like this on the back. Anything over 6 is too much (though it's fine if it goes there once in a while), but definitely 5 and possibly 4 makes a weird noise, as described above.
> View attachment 3297754
> 
> 
> And I wouldn't be opposed to someone telling me exactly which model it is I have 😅 Gordon wrote 4442 on the invoice, but I haven't been able to verify this doing the google thing and such.


This model looks to be a 4442+ which includes 2x 9Ghz HDMI inputs, 2x 18Ghz HDMI inputs, 1x 9Ghz HDMI output + audio, and 1x 18Ghz HDMI output + audio.


----------



## Naiera

dlinsley said:


> 82 lux is only 26 nits. You can use the test patterns in the Lumagen to display a 100 IRE window to measure full white to check this is correct, as it is very low, but I know the Sony lamp projectors are quite low in low lamp (but you have a small screen).
> 
> Given the 4442 was calibrated, did your calibrator not set it up for HDR? Or did they just profile/correct the projector? With only 26 nits, I can see the Max Light value of 150 you have as being correct. The (presumably) DPad of 4 is very high, and I'd be bumping that down to at most 2 and likely 1 given you need the light and won't notice the intra-scene highlight compression with such little light anyway.


I came from a JVC with even less light, so this is quite good to me 

It was never the plan to set it up for HDR. It’s calibrated for the scaler to send out 2160p BT.709 for everything. We tried 2020 but got some very weird readings on the color checker in Calman Home Enthusiast 2017. It’s not a definitive calibration yet as we were running out of time, but it’s close enough and all I really need for now is a sensible ballpark for the HDR DTM mapping something settings


----------



## Naiera

DigitalAV said:


> This model looks to be a 4442+ which includes 2x 9Ghz HDMI inputs, 2x 18Ghz HDMI inputs, 1x 9Ghz HDMI output + audio, and 1x 18Ghz HDMI output + audio.


Thank you. I’ll add a plus to my signature


----------



## Naiera

dlinsley said:


> 82 lux is only 26 nits. You can use the test patterns in the Lumagen to display a 100 IRE window to measure full white to check this is correct, as it is very low, but I know the Sony lamp projectors are quite low in low lamp (but you have a small screen).


It's about 105 lux on the 100 IRE window.

I have the D-pad and Max Light values now, so I just need a sensible suggestion for the first one, that I have at 50 for UHD BD and 20 for Apple TV right now 😅


----------



## Naiera

Based on the new light output info and what I just read in the manual, am I correct in that the Low Ratio should be about... 30?


----------



## Naiera

I watched Black Hawk Down with 32/1/Low/160 and that certainly looked dope. Tehran also looks doper with these settings.


----------



## HTTR17

Naiera said:


> I watched Black Hawk Down with 32/1/Low/160 and that certainly looked dope. Tehran also looks doper with these settings.


Curious how big your screen is with those lux/nits.


----------



## Naiera

The lens is just about 12 feet from the 108" screen. Contrast on the peej is set to 57 and Brightness is at 50. We calibrated it during three or four sessions a year ago, eventually settling for a 1080p autocal in my RadianceXD. We tried calibrating without a scaler, but doing gamma correction in the projector introduced horrible banding.

The XD broke the day after the would-be last calibration session, so I had to buy a 2123.

My "calibration buddy" is THX, ISF, etc. certified, so there's nothing wrong there. He's rusty, as he's been working in hi-fi for the last few years, but my calibration needs keep him on his toes a bit 

As mentioned earlier, I come from a JVC X30 (I don't remember the North American product name), and this Sony 270/295ES has almost twice the light, so I'm happy. I use a particular spot on the Snow Leopard background on my old Mac Mini to measure lux for my personal reference, but it's not hooked up right now, so I can't be certain that the lamp hasn't "dipped" on light levels, but I don't think it has. I measured it a few hundred hours ago and got perfectly healthy Sony lamp levels.


----------



## dlinsley

Naiera said:


> I measured it a few hundred hours ago and got perfectly healthy Sony lamp levels.


At 105 lux on a 108" diagonal 16:9 screen, that is only 340 lumens. IIRC a fresh bulb will give you more than double that (still in low lamp). Currently you have less than 10fL (105lux / 10.76) which may look good compared to what you are used to, but I would think you would be more impressed with the pop / lack of compression of double that. Around 20fL would put you where many are enjoying HDR.


----------



## Naiera

The lamp has about 600 hours on it. There’s only a few lux to gain from replacing it. I bought the projector from the store with 206 hours on the lamp and this new one is perfectly consistent with the first. They are all original, of course.

And I’m not looking to “enjoy HDR”. SDR for the win.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

If you have a light controlled room (bat cave) you'll be surprised how good the image will look with not a lot of light to work with. Don't get stuck up on numbers.


----------



## Naiera

I have the wall behind the screen painted in a dark grey and I’m reasonably able to control the light from outside. I also watch at night


----------



## Erod

Where can I find a full list of the command codes? Everywhere I've looked only has partial lists, including the manual.


----------



## jrp

Erod said:


> Where can I find a full list of the command codes? Everywhere I've looked only has partial lists, including the manual.


The manual has the ones we want available to Radiance Pro owners. I know at one point someone posted a more complete list of command codes. As I recall not all codes that were listed were still in the firmware though. Codes not in the manual in teh Direct Codes section may be eliminated without notice.

If you have something specific you are trying to accomplish, you can post a question and if there is a supported code for it I will respond with the info.

===================================

For the 5XXX (only) we do have new codes for changing the output swing away from HDMI standard (the default). Since I have not gotten these in the manual yet, here they are:

*Radiance Pro 5XXX* *output level*, and output EQ, command is:

MENU 07NV where:

N = Output Number (1, 2, 3)

V = Output Voltage (2 through 9, 5 = nominal (default). 2 is smallest swing, 8 is largest. A setting of 9 has output EQ, but so far 9 has never been the best choice).

See output level settings here: Info page 3, 5th line down, furthest right, says "H:xxx" where the x=5 is nominal setting, order is output 1,2,3.

Changes made with this command must be Saved. This command is active in both “User” and “Service” mode. We choose to make the command a direct code so it can be entered and Saved without being able to see an image on the screen.

The default output drive is set to match the HDMI voltage level specification (equivalent to "MENU 07x5").

Here is an  example if using output 3 to the projector/TV: If you have a passive HDMI cable longer than 3 to 5 meters, or are using an active metal HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries UHDT), and have issues with the default output setting, try setting Output 3 to maximum using MENU 0738. You then need to do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK) before powering the Radiance Pro 5348 off if you want to keep that setting. If you do not see a picture after this command, and Save, go to standby and back on.

You can try different settings. If no settings work reliably for you, you may need a better/different HDMI cable.

This can also apply to Output 1 to the audio processor even when using a shorter two to three meter passive HDMI cable. If you have an audio drop from time to time it _may_ be that changing the level on Output 1 to the audio processor helps eliminate the dropouts by mitigating transmission-line discontinuities in the HDMI cable, or audio processor input. In this case you may find a larger swing, to be helpful.


----------



## SJHT

jrp said:


> The manual has the ones we want available to Radiance Pro owners. I know at one point someone posted a more complete list of command codes. As I recall not all codes that were listed were still in the firmware though. Codes not in the manual in teh Direct Codes section may be eliminated without notice.
> 
> If you have something specific you are trying to accomplish, you can post a question and if there is a supported code for it I will respond with the info.
> 
> ===================================
> 
> For the 5XXX (only) we do have new codes for changing the output swing away from HDMI standard (the default). Since I have not gotten these in the manual yet, here they are:
> 
> *Radiance Pro 5XXX* *output level*, and output EQ, command is:
> 
> MENU 07NV where:
> 
> N = Output Number (1, 2, 3)
> 
> V = Output Voltage (2 through 9, 5 = nominal (default). 2 is smallest swing, 8 is largest. A setting of 9 has output EQ, but so far 9 has never been the best choice).
> 
> See output level settings here: Info page 3, 5th line down, furthest right, says "H:xxx" where the x=5 is nominal setting, order is output 1,2,3.
> 
> Changes made with this command must be Saved. This command is active in both “User” and “Service” mode. We choose to make the command a direct code so it can be entered and Saved without being able to see an image on the screen.
> 
> The default output drive is set to match the HDMI voltage level specification (equivalent to "MENU 07x5").
> 
> Here is an example if using output 3 to the projector/TV: If you have a passive HDMI cable longer than 3 to 5 meters, or are using an active metal HDMI cable (e.g. Tributaries UHDT), and have issues with the default output setting, try setting Output 3 to maximum using MENU 0738. You then need to do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK) before powering the Radiance Pro 5348 off if you want to keep that setting. If you do not see a picture after this command, and Save, go to standby and back on.
> 
> You can try different settings. If no settings work reliably for you, you may need a better/different HDMI cable.
> 
> This can also apply to Output 1 to the audio processor even when using a shorter two to three meter passive HDMI cable. If you have an audio drop from time to time it _may_ be that changing the level on Output 1 to the audio processor helps eliminate the dropouts by mitigating transmission-line discontinuities in the HDMI cable, or audio processor input. In this case you may find a larger swing, to be helpful.


I recently changed mine and this IS in the manual.


----------



## alv

can someone post a link to the setup powerpoint Jim created. I can't find it. Thanks.


----------



## bferbrache

alv said:


> can someone post a link to the setup powerpoint Jim created. I can't find it. Thanks.











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


New Remote.... :) Nice ! If only it was back lit ! Maybe the next iteration. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




www.avsforum.com


----------



## alv

thanks. I searched but couldn't find it anywhere.!


----------



## alv

I think I understand DeSat in DTM, it looks for bright spots in a frame and determines if it might be saturated. Is that correct? What does the auto setting do?


----------



## DigitalAV

bferbrache said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> New Remote.... :) Nice ! If only it was back lit ! Maybe the next iteration. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Think this one's the latest:









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


But the whole point of the post was describe how to do it when auto aspect is off. I, for one, don’t want auto aspect on. I agree it would be nice to have a quick toggle button to do it for 2.35 and 2.4:1 content. I find that 2.0:1 content like stranger things on Netflix and IMAX enhanced...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## sjschaff

SJHT said:


> I recently changed mine and this IS in the manual.


True, though without the detailed explanation that Jim has provided.


----------



## Mike_WI

bferbrache said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> New Remote.... :) Nice ! If only it was back lit ! Maybe the next iteration. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Thanks. A good reference.
@jrp - I wonder if you want to update with any new thoughts on HDMI cables, new DTM, boot mode update rationale (
New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series), etc.
May save you some phone calls and help everyone.


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> I think I understand DeSat in DTM, it looks for bright spots in a frame and determines if it might be saturated. Is that correct? What does the auto setting do?


The DTM "Auto" setting for DeSat follows the studio reference standard for what to do when pixels are too bright to show at the appropriate brightness and the appropriate color saturation given the light output capability of the projector or TV. What this means is the Radiance Pro desaturation circuits preserve the color of the content and give way on the brightness when necessary. This is what the "Auto" setting does.

The Low, Med, and High DeSat add in further desaturation for extremely bright content. I call these the "Mad Max: Fury Road feature." In the sandstorm scene of this movie the propane explosions are Burnt Orange, with a touch of yellow. This is consistent with the director's intent. We know this since a producer friend called one of the producers on the film and asked. The producer confirmed they should be burnt orange. This is also consistent with the real world where very hot propane flames are burnt orange.

However, people wanted the explosions to be more yellow since they thought it looked better. Since we thought there was a chance that if you were live at such a propane explosion your eyes might desaturate the burnt orange to be more yellow, we agreed to put some desaturation into the Radiance Pro for extremely bright explosion (in this case toward yellow) .

I have not experimented but I believe that only 4000 nit mastered will cause the Low, Med, and High, setting to have an effect. Even then you would need a 4000 nit master with a highly saturated extremely bright color to ever notice a change with the Low, Med, and High, settings. So, you will likely not notice any difference with these settings, except for Max Max: Fury Road. It could happen for other content of course.

What do the settings affect (in addition to Auto setting):

Low: In Max Max: Fury Road there is a single frame lightning strike (yes, one frame) at 0:28.53 that has a cyan stripe down the middle of a lightening strike in that frame. The Low setting moves the cyan stipe closer in color to the white on the sides of the lightning bolt. The Low setting has almost no effect on the propane explosions.

Med: The lightening strike cyan stripe moves even closer to white, and the propane explosions (about 0:28:29) have slightly more yellow.

High: The cyan stripe in the lightning strike blends into the white on the sides of the lightning, and the propane explosions have more yellow.

If you want to match what the content would look like in a post production studio for a projector or TV matching your brightness level, we recommend leaving the DSat = Auto.


----------



## alv

That seems like a lot of work for a few Mad Max seconds. Thanks for the detailed explanation!!!


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> That seems like a lot of work for a few Mad Max seconds. Thanks for the detailed explanation!!!


Yes it was. However, at that time there were quite a few people asking for the desaturation feature, so we obliged.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> The DTM "Auto" setting for DeSat follows the studio reference standard for what to do when pixels are too bright to show at the appropriate brightness and the appropriate color saturation given the light output capability of the projector or TV. What this means is the Radiance Pro desaturation circuits preserve the color of the content and give way on the brightness when necessary. This is what the "Auto" setting does.
> 
> The Low, Med, and High DeSat add in further desaturation for extremely bright content. I call these the "Mad Max: Fury Road feature." In the sandstorm scene of this movie the propane explosions are Burnt Orange, with a touch of yellow. This is consistent with the director's intent. We know this since a producer friend called one of the producers on the film and asked. The producer confirmed they should be burnt orange. This is also consistent with the real world where very hot propane flames are burnt orange.
> 
> However, people wanted the explosions to be more yellow since they thought it looked better. Since we thought there was a chance that if you were live at such a propane explosion your eyes might desaturate the burnt orange to be more yellow, we agreed to put some desaturation into the Radiance Pro for extremely bright explosion (in this case toward yellow) .
> 
> I have not experimented but I believe that only 4000 nit mastered will cause the Low, Med, and High, setting to have an effect. Even then you would need a 4000 nit master with a highly saturated extremely bright color to ever notice a change with the Low, Med, and High, settings. So, you will likely not notice any difference with these settings, except for Max Max: Fury Road. It could happen for other content of course.
> 
> What do the settings affect (in addition to Auto setting):
> 
> Low: In Max Max: Fury Road there is a single frame lightning strike (yes, one frame) at 0:28.53 that has a cyan stripe down the middle of a lightening strike in that frame. The Low setting moves the cyan stipe closer in color to the white on the sides of the lightning bolt. The Low setting has almost no effect on the propane explosions.
> 
> Med: The lightening strike cyan stripe moves even closer to white, and the propane explosions (about 0:28:29) have slightly more yellow.
> 
> High: The cyan stripe in the lightning strike blends into the white on the sides of the lightning, and the propane explosions have more yellow.
> 
> If you want to match what the content would look like in a post production studio for a projector or TV matching your brightness level, we recommend leaving the DSat = Auto.


Hi,

Can you please tell me how Lumagen builds its short term DTM memory? Does it require a pre-roll of multiple seconds of actual moving content?

You can change settings in the DTM menu, but which options require multiple seconds to adapt to the change?

Wouldnt all changes be instant if you are paused for eg and also ongoing dynamic when you roll footage? Does Lumagen detect scene changes and apply instant DTM choices?

If I change Desat while paused, shouldnt it instantly apply? Because I just tried all those Mad Max Shots, none of them are desat'ing like you describe. In fact the option is not doing anything for me in that film that I can see whatsoever, ive even tried pre-roll of a dozen seconds before the shots and still the same.

Or perhaps this is a Beta 2 bug? Sorry if it is, just trying to understand why Desat is not working for me here, its also not working in 10knit test patterns would ordinarily show hue shifting on dumb tonemapping which also is where I see desat working on other DTM methods.


Oppo Src Direct > Lumagen output. Direct capture. ycbcr 422 10 Bit > 444


----------



## jrp

Javs:

It looks like the Beta release has a bug. I had not looked at Mad Max: Fury Road in some time. So helpful to have your images.

I looked at your last image with the exhaust flames and lightning strike (I can't stop our Strato on the single frame with the lightning strike unfortunately) with 102221 (an internal release that fixes a 5244 specific issue but otherwise is the same as 090121). The issue with cyan in the flames is not in the 102221 release.

So we will need to figure this out and fix the issue in the next Beta.

====

BTW: DTM needs (as I recall) two "scene cuts" to have history. This is based only on the scene cuts and not time.

Thanks for posting.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> It looks like the Beta release has a bug. I had not looked at Mad Max: Fury Road in some time. So helpful to have your images.
> 
> I looked at your last image with the exhaust flames and lightening strike (I can't stop our Strato on the single frame with the lightning strike unfortunately) with 102221 (an internal release that fixes a 5244 specific issue but otherwise is the same as 090121). The issue with cyan in the flames is not in the 102221 release.
> 
> So we will need to figure this out and fix the issue in the next Beta.
> 
> Thanks for posting.


Thanks I am on 060322

In fact let me roll back to 090121 and confirm, perhaps desat as a whole got bugged out at some point, if its that simple, happy to help! I was thinking I was nuts sitting there and it just wasnt ever doing anything.


----------



## Javs

Jim,

Confirmed, Desat is completely inactive on Beta 2.

Works fine with 090121.

In fact, its doing Desat OFF. Not even Auto works in Beta 2, thats clear when Off is the only way I can actually get the blue inner portion of the lightning to show up.


----------



## docrog

Well done, @Javs!


----------



## Naiera

Funny how we're going on about DeSat right now 😅 I watched Black Hawk Down the other day, only my second UHD Blu-ray not downscaled with mediocre HDR to SDR conversion, and (for some reason) I decided to turn DeSat off. I got those purple things in very bright spots, such as the "windows" in the command tent, in the vehicles and certain backgrounds. Luckily, I figured out what I'd done and put DeSat on Low the rest of the way with nothing bad happening from then on.


----------



## Javs

Naiera said:


> Funny how we're going on about DeSat right now 😅 I watched Black Hawk Down the other day, only my second UHD Blu-ray not downscaled with mediocre HDR to SDR conversion, and (for some reason) I decided to turn DeSat off. I got those purple things in very bright spots, such as the "windows" in the command tent, in the vehicles and certain backgrounds. Luckily, I figured out what I'd done and put DeSat on Low the rest of the way with nothing bad happening from then on.


Thanks for the tip, ill check it, any scene you remember in particular so its easy to find?


----------



## Naiera

I should note that I'm not using a beta firmware; just the normal 090121 that I guess Gordon or the previous owner must've installed.

I believe I switched off DeSat because I thought it was causing the brightness to go up and down constantly during the briefing scene (I'm a total n00b at this and I've learned things in the five days since then), so not too long thereafter. It's in the early stages of them entering the city. There was also a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment where (I think) Abdi's car was affected.

Sorry I can't give any specifics, but it'll happen soon enough if you skip forward to after the briefing.


----------



## Clark Burk

Good find Javs. I’m guessing there isn’t a lot of material that needs the desaturation as I didn’t notice the bug, although honestly I haven’t watched many movies since I updated.


----------



## jrp

Javs:

Since I only post in this thread I will ask a question on your parking lot by the bay image here.

I believe this is a still photograph. I do not like using photographs for analysis since they tend to have full resolution Chroma, and so have much more Chroma resolution than compressed video. Optimizing downscaling is mathematically different for full-res Chroma (photos) versus quarter-res Chroma (all consumer video). If the photo has more than quarter-res Chroma resolution, please consider converting your photo to 4:2:0 quarter-res Chroma and looking at the Radiance Pro Beta downscaling to 1080p again.

I believe you will find the new Beta downscaling looks a lot better with Chroma resolution that matches actual video content, and I would be interested in your opinion, on 4:2:0 4k downscaled to 1080p using the Beta release.

Downscaling to 1080p is not our primary use case. However, with normal video content, which will have much less Chroma resolution than your still frame, and motion blur, I believe the new Beta down-scaling looks excellent.

Thanks for your analysis, and the Mad Max: Fury Road images. I will put Fury Road back on my always test list.


----------



## jrp

I just talked to Patrick about the DeSat being broken in the Beta 2. He said he found that a multiplier optimization for Beta 2 had a coding error. He fixed it and the DeSat will be back again for Beta 3.

Patrick says the DeSat is correct in Beta 1 if you want to revert to it for the very rare scenes that DeSat matters.

Thanks again to @Javs for pointing this out.


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## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> Since I only post in this thread I will ask a question on your parking lot by the bay image here.
> 
> I believe this is a still photograph. I do not like using photographs for analysis since they tend to have full resolution Chroma, and so have much more Chroma resolution than compressed video. Optimizing downscaling is mathematically different for full-res Chroma (photos) versus quarter-res Chroma (all consumer video). If the photo has more than quarter-res Chroma resolution, please consider converting your photo to 4:2:0 quarter-res Chroma and looking at the Radiance Pro Beta downscaling to 1080p again.
> 
> I believe you will find the new Beta downscaling looks a lot better with Chroma resolution that matches actual video content, and I would be interested in your opinion, on 4:2:0 4k downscaled to 1080p using the Beta release.
> 
> Downscaling to 1080p is not our primary use case. However, with normal video content, which will have much less Chroma resolution than your still frame, and motion blur, I believe the new Beta down-scaling looks excellent.
> 
> Thanks for your analysis, and the Mad Max: Fury Road images. I will put Fury Road back on my always test list.


Jim it's not a photo it's a video file. It was originally a photograph but I enocded uhd 10bit and hd versions using DaVinci resolve as videos. So the chroma is as expected from any other video, it's essentially just a test pattern at this point.

I thought a big use case is people with scope screens downscaling into a 16x9 viewport, that sounds pretty important to me. Me downscaling from uhd to 1080p is a very similar thing to that, in fact it should show the best possible downscaling as it's exactly half pixels ? 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Javs

Clark Burk said:


> Good find Javs. I’m guessing there isn’t a lot of material that needs the desaturation as I didn’t notice the bug, although honestly I haven’t watched many movies since I updated.


Quite the contrary, desat in a mild form is very much required a lot of the time. Without it you will actually lose detail in really bright objects. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## jrp

Javs said:


> Jim it's not a photo it's a video file. It was originally a photograph but I encoded uhd 10bit and hd versions using DaVinci resolve as videos. So the chroma is as expected from any other video, it's essentially just a test pattern at this point.


Thanks for the information.

Resolve can encode video as 4:4:4 I believe. Can you confirm the image is encoded as 4:2:0?

I am also interested in what color format you are sending the image to the Radiance Pro?


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## Javs

jrp said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Resolve can encode video as 4:4:4 I believe. Can you confirm the image is encoded as 4:2:0?
> 
> I am also interested in what color format you are sending the image to the Radiance Pro?


Yes sir it absolutely is.

Ive mentioned the colour in the shots I first posted, ycbcr 422 10 bit Oppo Source Direct > LRP.. Ive looked at RGB too im not seeing anytrhing unique to a particular colour space.


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## Chicagobear1

Good work Javs. Hopefully you look at every avenue of the lumagen pro. One thing for sure we probably would have a bug free product with your eye thanks


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## Javs

Here is why I think desat is SUPER important.

This is going to be a big image heavy post, I will tag it in spoiler. I mostly Show Auto / Low / Med / High, a few show OFF too.

IMO, Desat on Lumagen should be at a MINIMUM of Low, preferably Med in order to work with every scene I could find. I just know what to look for because this is super deep stuff we do in the MadVR thread. Right now Lumagen on Auto is not desaturating very much at all, I think this leads to a loss of highlight detail in certain instances, this can easily be avoided by a little more desat. You may be surprised just how much information is hiding until you use it. Its not obvious in every shot you will ever watch, but there are edge cases usually really bright HDR elements where by way of compressing down to SDR and the master is asking for super bright coloured pixels but you dont have the dynamic range to show it properly, what do you do? How much colour do you retain, right now Lumagen is erring on the side of full saturation and minimal desat, or more precisely turning the pixels white. After all, luminance at the end of the day just ends up making things white when you keep pushing it. You will see that with desat, elements actually appear brighter, in some cases hotter even.

Now with films that are more recently mastered you may not find a need for desat so much, but that just means that it wont actually activate until its needed, its not going to just desat everything, usually it will be doing it for pixels encoded to an almost illegal super bright level, but somethings gotta give at some point or you just end up with informaion being obscured which is easy to see if you open some of these pics and also look at the lower left waveform as you go up in desat, in the case with the green spear its literally a flat line, then information is revealed almost out of nowhere. Same with dumbledores face just below..

I encourage all of you to open some of them bigger. Particularly the first two shots from harry potter, desat must be on High IMO for that film it seems, there is detail actually missing until you do that. Batman Vs Superman similar situation. Information essentially missing until desat is used.



Spoiler







































































































































































Cont...


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## Javs

Spoiler


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## Javs

Spoiler


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## jrp

@Javs:

Thanks for confirming the parking lot by the bay is 4:2:0, and all the picture results of DeSat.


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## arsenalfc89

@Javs 

Your posts here are very eye opening. 🤙


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## docrog

Javs said:


> This is the exact frame that I've used in the past; I've found that MEDIUM De-Sat is virtually perfect when applied to any content.
> 
> 
> Spoiler





Javs said:


> Spoiler


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## Chicagobear1

Javs said:


> Here is why I think desat is SUPER important.
> 
> This is going to be a big image heavy post, I will tag it in spoiler. I mostly Show Auto / Low / Med / High, a few show OFF too.
> 
> IMO, Desat on Lumagen should be at a MINIMUM of Low, preferably Med in order to work with every scene I could find. I just know what to look for because this is super deep stuff we do in the MadVR thread. Right now Lumagen on Auto is not desaturating very much at all, I think this leads to a loss of highlight detail in certain instances, this can easily be avoided by a little more desat. You may be surprised just how much information is hiding until you use it. Its not obvious in every shot you will ever watch, but there are edge cases usually really bright HDR elements where by way of compressing down to SDR and the master is asking for super bright coloured pixels but you dont have the dynamic range to show it properly, what do you do? How much colour do you retain, right now Lumagen is erring on the side of full saturation and minimal desat, or more precisely turning the pixels white. After all, luminance at the end of the day just ends up making things white when you keep pushing it. You will see that with desat, elements actually appear brighter, in some cases hotter even.
> 
> Now with films that are more recently mastered you may not find a need for desat so much, but that just means that it wont actually activate until its needed, its not going to just desat everything, usually it will be doing it for pixels encoded to an almost illegal super bright level, but somethings gotta give at some point or you just end up with informaion being obscured which is easy to see if you open some of these pics and also look at the lower left waveform as you go up in desat, in the case with the green speak its literally a flat line, then information is revealed almost out of nowhere. Same with dumbledores face just below..
> 
> I encourage all of you to open some of them bigger. Particularly the first two shots from harry potter, desat must be on High IMO for that film it seems, there is detail actually missing until you do that. Batman Vs Superman similar situation. Information essentially missing until desat is used.
> 
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A perfect example of what your talking about to look for. The Balrog v Gandalf at the Bridge of Khazad Dum sequence in the fellowship of the ring is a perfect example.


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## Javs

Chicagobear1 said:


> A perfect example of what your talking about to look for. The Balrog v Gandalf at the Bridge of Khazad Dum sequence in the fellowship of the ring is a perfect example.


Excellent idea, however I checked that and its only about 300 nits or so that scene... Almost invisible desat here. Not really needed. But a GOOD example to show that having it long term at something like Medium does not harm scenes that simply dont need it.

It does turn Gandalfs forcefield just a little more clearly white when Auto is used and above, as I remember that was always a very clear white orb in the older versions. So IMO Auto is doing fine and Medium desat would be fine too.



Spoiler


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## Clark Burk

So my understanding is the auto setting keeps the color correct as much as possible with a slight loss of detail due to clipping. As the setting moves from low to high more of the color is lost by desaturation but more detail is gained due to less clipping in the very bright areas. Does that sound correct?


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## Javs

Clark Burk said:


> So my understanding is the auto setting keeps the color correct as much as possible with a slight loss of detail due to clipping. As the setting moves from low to high more of the color is lost by desaturation but more detail is gained due to less clipping in the very bright areas. Does that sound correct?


Auto seems to be following some method of choosing to desaturate a little, but personally I dont think its enough, but there must be an underlying algorithm there to choose when to do it, its definitely not the same as off.

Off seems to keep full saturation up to its brightness limit and stop which can lose some information if its encoded past the point Lumagen runs out of saturation, you can only go so much before you move out of balance with what the tonemapping is doing. 

Desat also seems to be applying less to the primaries and more to secondary colours.

This is pure BT2020, its not touching the primaries here.










Blue, Green and Red appear to be flat here. Yellow, Cyan and Megenta are desat'ing. but Magenta is going to full saturation, then lighter in colour then getting darker! Why, I dont know.


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## Javs

Just a small case study with info on whats actually happening here, it should give you a much better understanding on what is going on.

Desat Auto - This may as well be OFF in this shot its not really doing anything.










Desat Medium.










Desat High.


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## desray2k

Javs said:


> Just a small case study with info on whats actually happening here, it should give you a much better understanding on what is going on.
> 
> Desat Auto - This may as well be OFF in this shot its not really doing anything.
> 
> View attachment 3300252
> 
> 
> Desat Medium.
> 
> View attachment 3300253
> 
> 
> Desat High.
> 
> View attachment 3300254


Hi Javs, first and foremost, thank you for taking the time to study this DeSat setting for the LRP. You've been a great help not just to Jim but for every other users here as well, myself included. I'll admit I'm a bit confused so pardon my noob question as I try to understand this whole DeSat setting much better. I'll cut to the chase, so which will be the better setting for DeSat if using Beta 2 firmware? Based on the images above, it seems "Med" is doing a pretty good job in balancing the colors and the details to me albeit red is still clipping and running out of headroom. If the DeSat bug is to be fixed in Beta 3, what should be the ideal outcome for DeSat set at Auto? Am I right to say that the appearance and outline of the sun set will be displayed when the bug is fixed? My apologies in advance if it is a dumb question.


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## Javs

desray2k said:


> Hi Javs, first and foremost, thank you for taking the time to study this DeSat setting for the LRP. You've been a great help not just to Jim but for every other users here as well, myself included. I'll admit I'm a bit confused so pardon my noob question as I try to understand this whole DeSat setting much better. I'll cut to the chase, so which will be the better setting for DeSat if using Beta 2 firmware? Based on the images above, it seems "Med" is doing a pretty good job in balancing the colors and the details to me albeit red is still clipping and running out of headroom. If the DeSat bug is to be fixed in Beta 3, what should be the ideal outcome for DeSat set at Auto? Am I right to say that the appearance and outline of the sun set will be displayed when the bug is fixed? My apologies in advance if it is a dumb question.


Desat is not working at all in Beta 2. These were taken with the last stable build. Correct that when desat is fixed in the next beta, you will be able to adjust desat to see the sun and reveal all the detail in the other shots I posted.

In any case, from what Ive seen Lumagen doing so far if I were to set something and forget it, it would be medium, it barely affects properly mastered content, and content which has some extreme cases it pretty much resolves, so to me its kinda a no brainer. High actually produces some rather unsightly artefacts in other edge case test material. You are right in that you have to make a decision based on balance.


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## desray2k

Javs said:


> ...from what Ive seen Lumagen doing so far if I were to set something and forget it, it would be medium, it barely affects properly mastered content, and content which has some extreme cases it pretty much resolves, so to me its kinda a no brainer. High actually produces some rather unsightly artefacts in other edge case test material. You are right in that you have to make a decision based on balance.


Thanks for the feedback on this.


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## jrp

Javs:

Comments, mostly for others, looking at your Spears and Munsil images.

It looks like you are using the 4000 nit master for the images. I reproduced your results at 4000 nits. It does look like we can make the "Auto DeSat" more aggressive for the 4000 nit masters. We will look into adjusting the Auto DeSat algorithm for 4000 nit masters. My concern with this is changing out from under someone who has set up with DeSat = Med, and making sure the content is just as good with that setting after any changes.

I also looked at the 1000 nit grade, since most content is graded to 1000 nits. In fact I am told the industry is trending to grading at 1000 nits for all consumer content making this the most common case. For the 1000 nit grade the content with DeSat = Auto looks very similar to the 4000 nit grade with DeSat = Med. So for 1000 nit titles the DeSat = Auto setting works well. I am thinking we will evaluate the effect of DeSat = Auto for 1000 nit content again as it does seem to not have as much effect as I would expect.

I want to point out that since consumer content is mastered at no more than 4000 nits, the Radiance Pro DTM uses 4000 nits as the maximum expected content. The only exceptions tend to be test images, patterns, and games. These can use 10000 nit for mastering level. I would need to double check with Patrick but I am pretty sure that if you want to see the 10000 nit response, if you go into the menu in the Input->Options->HDR setup->Max Default and select Default = 10000 and Use Default = Always, press OK and then select if for the current or all inputs, and then if for the current or all input memories, and accept by pressing OK that this would override the 4000 nit limit. Note: If you leave the Use Default = Auto, with the Default at 10000, then games which report MaxCLL = 0 (many do), would use the 10000 nit limit. With a 100 nit or so projector there will not be much if any difference using the 10000 nit level since images will be crushing to white long before the content reaches 10000 nits.

Javs, thanks again for your posts. More scenes than I expected for 4000 nit masters are affected by the DeSat setting. And it spurred me on to confirm that 1000 nit titles work well with DeSat = Auto as I expected. It would be interesting to get your feedback on the same images for a 1000 nit grade.


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## jrp

Someone posted in another thread as to why wasn't the Beta 2 DeSat issue found by Lumagen (at least this is the implication). A rather disingenuous question IMO.

First, that is why it is called "Beta." This means we are not done with the implementation and testing efforts, and engage interested Radiance Pro owners to help us with testing. There are way too many possible things to test for Patrick and I to find everything before every release. We have a long and mutually beneficial relationship with Radiance Pro owners where they help us find bugs and we then work to correct the bugs as soon as possible.

The Beta 2 DeSat issue was not in Beta 1, the Alpha releases, or the latest production release. It was simply a multiplier coding error for the Beta 2 update. I generally test Mad Max: Fury Road sandstorm scene before we release an update, but I did not get to it for Beta 2. I have added it to my "must test before release" list.

Certainly Javs did us a favor finding the Beta 2 DeSat issue and we are thankful for his feedback. I do not think this issue would have gone unnoticed for long, but Javs made it clear we had an issue in his posts.

================

Patrick is working to finish up the additional source aspects so they can be in Beta 3. It turns out this is a can of worms and affects a more code than one might expect. So, it is taking longer than hoped. Patrick is also working on synthesizing the Beta 3 FPGA (with the DeSat fix, and a couple other fixes). Fingers crossed we can post Beta 3 next week.


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## webay

jrp said:


> Someone posted in another thread as to why wasn't the Beta 2 DeSat issue found by Lumagen (at least this is the implication). A rather disingenuous question IMO.
> 
> First, that is why it is called "Beta." This means we are not done with the implementation and testing efforts, and engage interested Radiance Pro owners to help us with testing. There are way too many possible things to test for Patrick and I to find everything before every release. We have a long and mutually beneficial relationship with Radiance Pro owners where they help us find bugs and we then work to correct the bugs as soon as possible.
> 
> The Beta 2 DeSat issue was not in Beta 1, the Alpha releases, or the latest production release. It was simply a multiplier coding error for the Beta 2 update. I generally test Mad Max: Fury Road sandstorm scene before we release an update, but I did not get to it for Beta 2. I have added it to my "must test before release" list.
> 
> Certainly Javs did us a favor finding the Beta 2 DeSat issue and we are thankful for his feedback. I do not think this issue would have gone unnoticed for long, but Javs made it clear we had an issue in his posts.
> 
> ================
> 
> Patrick is working to finish up the additional source aspects so they can be in Beta 3. It turns out this is a can of worms and affects a more code than one might expect. So, it is taking longer than hoped. Patrick is also working on synthesizing the Beta 3 FPGA (with the DeSat fix, and a couple other fixes). Fingers crossed we can post Beta 3 next week.



I wanted to ask you as a lumagen owner with a JVC NZ9 and DCR len I am having issues with subtitles and getting the entire image into my 160inch 2:40 scoped screen. Is there someone I can reach out to who can help me? I am not the most experienced with the device and really struggling with getting a great image without sacrificing my viewing experience.


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## jbrinegar

webay said:


> I wanted to ask you as a lumagen owner with a JVC NZ9 and DCR len I am having issues with subtitles and getting the entire image into my 160inch 2:40 scoped screen. Is there someone I can reach out to who can help me? I am not the most experienced with the device and really struggling with getting a great image without sacrificing my viewing experience.


If you’re on the most up to date firmware, I believe it’s just down arrow (or maybe up arrow?) to adjust the image so subtitles are visible


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## webay

jbrinegar said:


> If you’re on the most up to date firmware, I believe it’s just down arrow (or maybe up arrow?) to adjust the image so subtitles are visible


When i do this I lose tons of the top image


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## bobof

Javs said:


> View attachment 3300211


Just a note that this old pattern of mine is "naughty" in at least one guise. One of the files circulated is 10000 nit pixel data with 1000 nit metadata (which I'm not sure is particularly valid as a real-world test), and the other is 10000 nit pixel data with 10000 nit metadata. Neither are that representative of real content and they were created as an extreme test (ironically, in complaint about the desat algorithm not having a low enough setting! In early releases, off was far from off.). The Lumagen does believe the 1000 nit metadata if present, which I recall seems to affect the point at which desaturation and some clipping kicks in, and leads to a more clipped image owing to the 10000 nit data than you might expect if the metadata were ignored and all the analysis were from the image (I'm not lobbying for change BTW). It's worth checking which version of the pattern this is. It's ages since I looked at this.

-

I saw some of your other posts elsewhere. It would be interesting if the 4k->1080p downscaling were further improved a bit. It feels like it may be missing a filtering stage at the moment, graphics such as some of the infamous AppleTV menu icons can look quite blocky once downscaled.


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## jrp

*webay:*

Make sure you are on Beta 2 (060322).

You engage subscript mode by manually selecting the source aspect and then pressing the down-arrow.

I have tested this with Beta 2 on our 2.40 screen and am not seeing the issue. The top of the image stays at the top of the screen and the bottom of the image moves up. You could have found a setting specific bug.

You can email me at the lumagen.com support email and we can start a dialog, and perhaps chat on the phone.


----------



## webay

jrp said:


> *webay:*
> 
> Make sure you are on Beta 2 (060322).
> 
> You engage subscript mode by manually selecting the source aspect and then pressing the down-arrow.
> 
> I have tested this with Beta 2 on our 2.40 screen and am not seeing the issue. The top of the image stays at the top of the screen and the bottom of the image moves up. You could have found a setting specific bug.
> 
> You can email me at the lumagen.com support email and we can start a dialog, and perhaps chat on the phone.


Jim,

Thanks! Where can I get the beta? Directly on the website?


----------



## jrp

webay said:


> Jim,
> 
> Thanks! Where can I get the beta? Directly on the website?


The Beta, and future releases, are here: Lumagen. Download and unzip the update file nearest the top. No need for any intermediate releases.

Each release comes with a tech tip on updating. Plug in the supplied USB cable to a Windows PC. Then use the Device Manager to find the assigned COM port. For Windows 10 this is in Device Manager under Ports. Then start the program. If your virus protection wants to prevent the program running click that you want to run anyway. Then select 230K BAUD, and the com port number reported in Device Manager. Then click Start.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

It's kinda funny, I ended up relenting and buying my RP4242 because I wanted to go plug-n-play vs. building a MadVR box and dealing with ripping and all the other inconveniences of an HTPC. But even months after getting my unit and despite being an EE, I am still struggling to learn how to best use it. I even started with RTFM several times. It is fair to say that there's a steep learning curve. Its been 20 years since I wrote a patent application on PWM color correction for white LEDs for Philips where I learned a good deal about CIE, so I even had some foundation in the art, yet still I am learning new things all the time from the RP discussions here. Maybe some day I will manage to master configuring the thing... 😬


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## jrp

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> It's kinda funny, I ended up relenting and buying my RP4242 because I wanted to go plug-n-play vs. building a MadVR box and dealing with ripping and all the other inconveniences of an HTPC. But even months after getting my unit and despite being an EE, I am still struggling to learn how to best use it. I even started with RTFM several times. It is fair to say that there's a steep learning curve. Its been 20 years since I wrote a patent application on PWM color correction for white LEDs for Philips where I learned a good deal about CIE, so I even had some foundation in the art, yet still I am learning new things all the time from the RP discussions here. Maybe some day I will manage to master configuring the thing... 😬


With great power comes great responsibility (to learn in this case I guess).

I think the base setup is straight forward using our setup slide set, but there are lots of features to consider to achieve the last ounce of performance.

I am happy to work with you on pulling you further up the learning curve. Please feel free to email me at lumagen.com support and we can start a dialog.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> Comments, mostly for others, looking at your Spears and Munsil images.
> 
> It looks like you are using the 4000 nit master for the images. I reproduced your results at 4000 nits. It does look like we can make the "Auto DeSat" more aggressive for the 4000 nit masters. We will look into adjusting the Auto DeSat algorithm for 4000 nit masters. My concern with this is changing out from under someone who has set up with DeSat = Med, and making sure the content is just as good with that setting after any changes.
> 
> I also looked at the 1000 nit grade, since most content is graded to 1000 nits. In fact I am told the industry is trending to grading at 1000 nits for all consumer content making this the most common case. For the 1000 nit grade the content with DeSat = Auto looks very similar to the 4000 nit grade with DeSat = Med. So for 1000 nit titles the DeSat = Auto setting works well. I am thinking we will evaluate the effect of DeSat = Auto for 1000 nit content again as it does seem to not have as much effect as I would expect.
> 
> I want to point out that since consumer content is mastered at no more than 4000 nits, the Radiance Pro DTM uses 4000 nits as the maximum expected content. The only exceptions tend to be test images, patterns, and games. These can use 10000 nit for mastering level. I would need to double check with Patrick but I am pretty sure that if you want to see the 10000 nit response, if you go into the menu in the Input->Options->HDR setup->Max Default and select Default = 10000 and Use Default = Always, press OK and then select if for the current or all inputs, and then if for the current or all input memories, and accept by pressing OK that this would override the 4000 nit limit. Note: If you leave the Use Default = Auto, with the Default at 10000, then games which report MaxCLL = 0 (many do), would use the 10000 nit limit. With a 100 nit or so projector there will not be much if any difference using the 10000 nit level since images will be crushing to white long before the content reaches 10000 nits.
> 
> Javs, thanks again for your posts. More scenes than I expected for 4000 nit masters are affected by the DeSat setting. And it spurred me on to confirm that 1000 nit titles work well with DeSat = Auto as I expected. It would be interesting to get your feedback on the same images for a 1000 nit grade.


Hey Jim, 

No worries happy to help. I have this for as long a I want thanks to Paul, so I can look at pretty much anything. If there are things we can improve I would love to help, it benefits all. 

For the 10k nit thing, actually I do use that custom maxcll setting in lumagen but it's still clipping test patterns pretty harshly. I have to raise max light to 9900 to get it to stop which is a bit annoying. It would be great if Pat can fix that option so it truly honor's it. In fact white seems to be handled differently to colours in this case, white clips much earlier. if you tell lumagen to accept 10k nit maxcll then imo it should do that. This was one of the first things I encountered when I setup the lumagen earlier in the year. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

bobof said:


> Just a note that this old pattern of mine is "naughty" in at least one guise. One of the files circulated is 10000 nit pixel data with 1000 nit metadata (which I'm not sure is particularly valid as a real-world test), and the other is 10000 nit pixel data with 10000 nit metadata. Neither are that representative of real content and they were created as an extreme test (ironically, in complaint about the desat algorithm not having a low enough setting! In early releases, off was far from off.). The Lumagen does believe the 1000 nit metadata if present, which I recall seems to affect the point at which desaturation and some clipping kicks in, and leads to a more clipped image owing to the 10000 nit data than you might expect if the metadata were ignored and all the analysis were from the image (I'm not lobbying for change BTW). It's worth checking which version of the pattern this is. It's ages since I looked at this.
> 
> -
> 
> I saw some of your other posts elsewhere. It would be interesting if the 4k->1080p downscaling were further improved a bit. It feels like it may be missing a filtering stage at the moment, graphics such as some of the infamous AppleTV menu icons can look quite blocky once downscaled.


I did use the pattern labelled 10000, but see my post to Jim about LRP not truly honouring the maxcll override. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

Jim,

Using stable. LRP is not actually allowing any content over 4000 nits, its just clipping it, ive been seeing this in every test pattern too.

I think this is not a great decision IMO, its also not honoring the manual MaxCLL override of 10,000 I set in HDR setup in the input menu. Shouldny that work? Logic tells me thats where it should work in order to allow DTM to go over 4000nits.
Is that another bug? Beta 2 was also not honoring so I assume its global.

The flares in MadMax are clipped, I can only see the detail when I raise max light to >8000 nits.

Shouldnt LRP never allow clipping of content if it exists? Im not sure its totally wise to hard limit LRP to 4000 assuming there is no content over there.

While this is Bt709 output to share here, ive checked BT2020 of course and same thing, so its not in the gamut conversion.

You see red bottom left is just flat topped at 4000 nits.



















Finally not clipping. Detail in cloud is complete.



















I would expect it to look a little bit more like this:


----------



## Javs

Jim,

Another one.

So this is a very well mastered disc, its 1000nits master.

This shot is only about 350 nits max. Yet LRP is clipping it unless very specific settings are used.

First BT2020 has nearly no issue, but there are settings which clip.

LRP for this is set to default 4000 nits MaxCLL AUTO... But this is 1000nit title.

So HDR Default Dpad 3 and Maxlight 550 is on the edge of clipping, in fact, I think it is slightly. You have flat tops on the scopes.











Dpad 5 mostly not clipping.










Back to Dpad 3 and max light 650 no clipping.










Rec709 is the real issue. In fairness this is very hard for the other DTM solutions too, but just showing you what I am seeing here.

Defaults, pretty full on red clipping here.










Dyn Pad 5, better but still bad.










Dynpad 5 and max light 1200!! required to not clip here. Desat btw is having almost zero affect on these shots, the peak nits is too low.










Back to BT2020 This shot is only about 250 nits!

This shot clips with defaults.










Better










Fixed










BT709 Dynpad 5 / 550 Max Light










1400 Max Light.


----------



## Javs

You may think I am trying to find faults, but I am really not, I just am running LRP through its paces same I do with the other DTM Solutions. Its all the same test material, so naturally I want to see how its setting itself apart in that respect.

In saying that, I would love to see LRP not clip, ever. DTM by its definition shouldnt allow it IMO. Especially by raising or lowering your Dpad and Max Light settings ideally, I would have expect it to just raise or lower essentially the transfer curve withinn the boundaries of never allowing content to clip unless you hard clip on purpose, certainly not at 200 and 300 nits. I am a little surprised that its doing all this to be honest.

Gamut conversions from a large one down to something smaller though are clearly really hard, perhaps there needs to be a gamut conversion rolloff of sorts near the boundaries to avoid this sort of thing?


----------



## Jue Liang

Javs said:


> Jim,
> 
> Another one.
> 
> So this is a very well mastered disc, its 1000nits master.
> 
> This shot is onbly about 350 nits max. Yet LRP is clipping it unless very specific settings are used.
> 
> First BT2020 has nearly no issue, but there are settings which clip.
> 
> LRP for this is set to default 4000 nits MaxCLL AUTO... But this is 1000nit title.
> 
> So HDR Default Dpad 3 and Maxlight 550 is on the edge of clipping, in fact, I think it is slightly.


Great findings Matt! I have also been using dpad5 to avoid any clipping and unnecessary over brightening in certains scenes when I had ~130-150nit with my NX9 and setting the max light to 650 nit. This is also what i recommended to a few other Lumagen users through PM.
Now I have 210 nit with my NZ9 and setting the high max light to 1200 nit and low max light to 278 nit, I am much more comfortable setting Dpad to 3.

regarding the desat setting, I have been using Med since last year as well.


----------



## jrp

Javs:

More good images to evaluate.

I have a test release with an FPGA that corrects the DeSat issue from Beta 2. Patrick said he found a couple other small issues in the DTM calculations and addressed those. They were very minor and might not have been visible. We may release this as Beta 3 (without the new source aspects), to overcome the DeSat bug as soon as possible.

The 4000 nit limit was made during the Static Tone Mapping days. The argument is that for movies mastered on a 4000 nit monitor, like Mad Max: Fury Road, the Post Production team would not be able to see anything over 4000 nits. So limiting to 4000 nits when the mastering monitor is 4000 nits is what the grader would see in the studio (okay not exactly since this likely is on a 100 nit projector). We went back and forth on this since Fury Road has frames up to about 9900 nits. However, for Static Tone Mapping limiting to 4000 nits made the images look a lot better (in this case brighter) throughout the movie rather than using the reported MaxCLL of 9900 and change (if memory serves).

With DTM this has changed. The DTM in most cases does not need any limits set for MaxCLL since it figures this out on a region by region basis for every scene and every frame. The trade-off becomes one of limiting to what the mastering monitor would show for grading or allowing the over 4000 nit content through. You make a good case to remove this limit. I will talk to Patrick and perhaps we will make this change.

On the other end some content such as BR2049 looks better limiting scenes to the reported MaxCLL (about 184 nits as I recall) rather than allow the higher than MaxCLL content (up to about 480 nits as I recall) through. We have discussed just using the DTM analysis and completely ignoring the reported MaxCLL. This is a difficult decision since there are arguments on both sides.

====== 

Most scenes look fine with Dyn Pad = 3. We know that DynPad = 3 will have scenes that clip more than with DynPad = 5. We discuss with people that this is a trade-off to gain brightness on projectors with lower light output. When I talk to Radiance Pro owners, if they have a lot of light (say at least 120 nits), I recommend Dyn Pad of 5 to gain more headroom and reduce clipping in the corner case scenes. Your images show why this can be a good idea. 

BTW: As a compromise, I have been using DynPad = 4 and we only have 62 nits on our 14 foot diagonal screen with the JVC RS4500 set to mid-laser. With such a large screen this has enough light output to have an exceptional image, and the DynPad = 4 means less clipping.

====== 

Since it looks like the tough scenes seem to be hot in red, we can look at increasing the desaturation sooner for red (and perhaps Blue and Green). I can say we already overweight red for desaturation, but looks like we could weight it even higher.

As you show, increasing the Max Light setting can reduce clipping, but this is to be expected. Max Light controls the brightness roll off. The DTM will have a lot less roll off, and therefore less clipping, if you tell the Pro you have more light. I think you were just pointing this out, but not much we can do here. So we will focus on the desaturation, which can help improve the scenes you show.

====== 

I talked to Patrick about working on DeSat. We can likely work on this in the future. For now Radiance Pro owners can consider DeSat = Med which looks best on the images you show. I want to note that the Auto setting is still closer to studio reference. However, it is clear to see that for the images posted DeSat = Med is likely a good choice at this time.

====== 

I have a request:

For the last images (two girls, one with a gun) for the Rec709 source test (I assume that is what you mean referencing Rec709), set the Pro active CMS Colorspace = SDR2020, with auto convert, and HDR Flag = Off. The Pro will then convert the Rec 709 to Rec 2020. This is our recommended setup for all content. Then make sure the projector, and capture card, are in Rec 2020 Gamma 2.4 mode and look at the red clipping again. I am wondering if outputting Rec 2020 with its additional Gamut range helps the red clipping or not.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> I have a request:
> 
> For the last images (two girls, one with a gun) for the Rec709 source test (I assume that is what you mean referencing Rec709), set the Pro active CMS Colorspace = SDR2020, with auto convert, and HDR Flag = Off. The Pro will then convert the Rec 709 to Rec 2020. This is our recommended setup for all content. Then make sure the projector, and capture card, are in Rec 2020 Gamma 2.4 mode and look at the red clipping again. I am wondering if outputting Rec 2020 with its additional Gamut range helps the red clipping or not.


Hey Jim, that film is Atomic Blonde, its UHD HDR source, its not rec 709, in fact if i recall that film has colour WELL into BT2020 range rather than the common P3 restriction we see, I was downconverting to rec709 gamut from BT2020,.

In BT2020 passthrough, and I did show this, there is still clipping evident, although there is less of it and you dont have to use such extreme settings to get rid of it. But thats also me really testing your gamut conversion too, and it shows that its very difficult.

So me saying bt709 and bt2020 on those tests is actually the LRP doing gamut conversion or gamut passthrough. Of course my capture card has no problem detecting gamuts so I dont even need to tell it what it is.

Another thing, desat wsnt really doing anything in those scenes, let alone fixing the clipping, so I am not sure if more desat will solve it? perhaps its something in the backend i cant actually change on the frontend for those instances, maybe it is desat, I just cant manipulate.

I know what you mean about the mastering monitor clipping decisions though, we tak about that in the other thread too, I do think you should be able to bypass it completely though. Ive sat on both sides of the fence on that one.


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> Hey Jim, that film is Atomic Blonde, its UHD HDR source, its not rec 709, in fact if i recall that film has colour WELL into BT2020 range rather than the common P3 restriction we see, I was down-converting to rec709 gamut from BT2020 ...


After I posted I read your post from right before I posted mine and then figured it was 2020 converted to 709. I realize you have a 1080 projector which means it is 709. We have a number of customers using a Radiance Pro with their 1080p projectors and all I have heard from are thrilled with the results for HDR content. The comments are along the lines of "my projector never looked so good."

====== 

One thing to consider is getting your projector checked for its actual Gamut range. Then consider using the Pro output in P3 mode with a P3 calibration. If your projector can do outside Rec709, this would give more Gamut range and less Gamut clipping. In fact if you can find a calibrator who uses Colourspace, and knows how to do a desaturated 3D LUT, the desaturated 3D LUT could roll off the Gamut range for you. Since you would be doing a 3D LUT you can do this even if your projector does not have a P3 color mode (it would be in Rec 709 mode) since the 3D LUT would compensate.

====== 

DTM is done in the source colorspace. This includes desaturation. So for your use case we would need to change the pipeline design so DTM and desaturation can be done in Rec 2020 to not clip to Rec 709, but desaturate knowing the output is limited to 709. I just thought through the math to do this. It is certainly doable. I came up with two processing options. Either would be a significant change to the pipeline, which would be a lot of work, and perhaps a lot of FPGA resources, for an uncommon case in today's environment of 4k projectors and TVs. So at this point I am thinking we will not be doing this work. However I never say never.

If we increase the desaturation for Rec 2020 output, I think this, perhaps along with your setting the Max Light higher for more headroom, and DynPad = 5 or 6, would mitigate this issue for you to some degree and would not add gates for this specific case.


----------



## Javs

Jim I am testing the lumagen on my desk using my PC monitor which is actually a 55" Panasonic FZ950 OLED at 120 nits with reasonably well calibrated BT2020 and BT709 modes. So I have no problem testing just about any mode, 1080p, UHD etc..


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> You may think I am trying to find faults, but I am really not, I just am running LRP through its paces same I do with the other DTM Solutions. Its all the same test material, so naturally I want to see how its setting itself apart in that respect.
> 
> In saying that, I would love to see LRP not clip, ever. DTM by its definition shouldnt allow it IMO. Especially by raising or lowering your Dpad and Max Light settings ideally, I would have expect it to just raise or lower essentially the transfer curve withinn the boundaries of never allowing content to clip unless you hard clip on purpose, certainly not at 200 and 300 nits. I am a little surprised that its doing all this to be honest.
> 
> Gamut conversions from a large one down to something smaller though are clearly really hard, perhaps there needs to be a gamut conversion rolloff of sorts near the boundaries to avoid this sort of thing?


So is the clipping because of the gamut conversion or the tone map? It really should be separated if there are issues with gamut conversion vs tone mapping specifically. As an engineer I like testing one function at a time and try to eliminate binning problems so that one thing isn’t manipulating another.

Also, for Mad Max. I know Lumagen and I talked about this title extensively when developing DTM. The hard clipping at 4000 nits is because that is exactly what the mastering monitor would have done. The Pulsar does not tone map, so any pixels above 4K would have been hard clipped on the monitor. And because there is no mastering monitor being used that exceeds 4000 nits, it makes a limit for content on the market today. If content started getting mastered on 10K monitors, it would make more sense to start looking at tone mapping it. The only exception at the moment is Stacey’s disc, which wasn’t mastered on a display for the 10K stuff, it was all done with scopes. It also has a ton Of mastering issues for color (as do most of the Warner titles that people obsess over from 2-3 years ago), so trying to fix those doesn’t always seem like the best use of resources since the next release of it will already have done it.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> So is the clipping because of the gamut conversion or the tone map? It really should be separated if there are issues with gamut conversion vs tone mapping specifically. As an engineer I like testing one function at a time and try to eliminate binning problems so that one thing isn’t manipulating another.
> 
> Also, for Mad Max. I know Lumagen and I talked about this title extensively when developing DTM. The hard clipping at 4000 nits is because that is exactly what the mastering monitor would have done. The Pulsar does not tone map, so any pixels above 4K would have been hard clipped on the monitor. And because there is no mastering monitor being used that exceeds 4000 nits, it makes a limit for content on the market today. If content started getting mastered on 10K monitors, it would make more sense to start looking at tone mapping it. The only exception at the moment is Stacey’s disc, which wasn’t mastered on a display for the 10K stuff, it was all done with scopes. It also has a ton Of mastering issues for color (as do most of the Warner titles that people obsess over from 2-3 years ago), so trying to fix those doesn’t always seem like the best use of resources since the next release of it will already have done it.


Its the tone map.

I shared images showing clipping in both BT2020 and BT709 gamuts on Lumagen and none of the shots are over 4000 nits at all, so its in both for sure, its amplified with gamut conversions, which I also showed.

Also this shot is reading 1300 nits. So it should not be clipping regardless. When I enable gamut conversion in MadVR it raises to over 2000 nits, so perhaps thats also some insight into why when Lumagen is doing it too, its amplifying any clipping that was already there, its the same as simply making the object a lot brighter. Its probably linked to curves or desat or both, I dont know.

Its pretty safe to say they were not seeing anything clipping on the Pulsar here...

Not Lumagen:

BT2020










BT709


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> So is the clipping because of the gamut conversion or the tone map? It really should be separated if there are issues with gamut conversion vs tone mapping specifically. As an engineer I like testing one function at a time and try to eliminate binning problems so that one thing isn’t manipulating another.
> 
> Also, for Mad Max. I know Lumagen and I talked about this title extensively when developing DTM. The hard clipping at 4000 nits is because that is exactly what the mastering monitor would have done. The Pulsar does not tone map, so any pixels above 4K would have been hard clipped on the monitor. And because there is no mastering monitor being used that exceeds 4000 nits, it makes a limit for content on the market today. If content started getting mastered on 10K monitors, it would make more sense to start looking at tone mapping it. The only exception at the moment is Stacey’s disc, which wasn’t mastered on a display for the 10K stuff, it was all done with scopes. It also has a ton Of mastering issues for color (as do most of the Warner titles that people obsess over from 2-3 years ago), so trying to fix those doesn’t always seem like the best use of resources since the next release of it will already have done it.


btw where I say this:









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


webay: Make sure you are on Beta 2 (060322). You engage subscript mode by manually selecting the source aspect and then pressing the down-arrow. I have tested this with Beta 2 on our 2.40 screen and am not seeing the issue. The top of the image stays at the top of the screen and the bottom of...




www.avsforum.com







> You see red bottom left is just flat topped at 4000 nits.


This is a mistake, I forgot I am looking at SDR gamma, so me looking at the height of it and concluding its 4000 nits is wrong, its flat topping anyway, so regardless what nits it is, maybe its 1000 nits. But then does not explain why Atomic Blonde is also clipping red at 200-300 nits.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> After I posted I read your post from right before I posted mine and then figured it was 2020 converted to 709. I realize you have a 1080 projector which means it is 709. We have a number of customers using a Radiance Pro with their 1080p projectors and all I have heard from are thrilled with the results for HDR content. The comments are along the lines of "my projector never looked so good."
> 
> ======
> 
> One thing to consider is getting your projector checked for its actual Gamut range. Then consider using the Pro output in P3 mode with a P3 calibration. If your projector can do outside Rec709, this would give more Gamut range and less Gamut clipping. In fact if you can find a calibrator who uses Colourspace, and knows how to do a desaturated 3D LUT, the desaturated 3D LUT could roll off the Gamut range for you. Since you would be doing a 3D LUT you can do this even if your projector does not have a P3 color mode (it would be in Rec 709 mode) since the 3D LUT would compensate.
> 
> ======
> 
> DTM is done in the source colorspace. This includes desaturation. So for your use case we would need to change the pipeline design so DTM and desaturation can be done in Rec 2020 to not clip to Rec 709, but desaturate knowing the output is limited to 709. I just thought through the math to do this. It is certainly doable. I came up with two processing options. Either would be a significant change to the pipeline, which would be a lot of work, and perhaps a lot of FPGA resources, for an uncommon case in today's environment of 4k projectors and TVs. So at this point I am thinking we will not be doing this work. However I never say never.
> 
> If we increase the desaturation for Rec 2020 output, I think this, perhaps along with your setting the Max Light higher for more headroom, and DynPad = 5 or 6, would mitigate this issue for you to some degree and would not add gates for this specific case.


Jim. I just wanted to add to other than my using an OLED my gamut is kinda not relevant when I am looking at scopes because by the very nature of the scopes I am not bound to my displays capabilities Im looking at raw data coming from the Lumagen, if there is clipping or anything there, its there at output... I am always in the output colour gamut though, SDR BT2020 and my OLED will be in the relevant correct mode. But the scopes dont lie is my point...


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> btw where I say this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> webay: Make sure you are on Beta 2 (060322). You engage subscript mode by manually selecting the source aspect and then pressing the down-arrow. I have tested this with Beta 2 on our 2.40 screen and am not seeing the issue. The top of the image stays at the top of the screen and the bottom of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a mistake, I forgot I am looking at SDR gamma, so me looking at the height of it and concluding its 4000 nits is wrong, its flat topping anyway, so regardless what nits it is, maybe its 1000 nits. But then does not explain why Atomic Blonde is also clipping red at 200-300 nits.


Is it an illegal value? I can’t remember the percentages and I’m standing in a line waiting for a bike tour in Paris. I know with SDR blue was 5%. Universal does their grades on a Pulsar then trim passes to 1000 nits because of the BDA spec. I wonder if the reds are too high compared to peak luma? I think the percentage relationships have to be maintained??


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> Is it an illegal value? I can’t remember the percentages and I’m standing in a line waiting for a bike tour in Paris. I know with SDR blue was 5%. Universal does their grades on a Pulsar then trim passes to 1000 nits because of the BDA spec. I wonder if the reds are too high compared to peak luma? I think the percentage relationships have to be maintained??


Nah it should not be, Red is over 2000 nits green 6700 or so and blue about 600



> I wonder if the reds are too high compared to peak luma?


The reds are maybe a bit too high yes, but Atomic Blonde is only 200-300 nits, so that is not pushing things far at all in terms of the master IMO, that makes me think its a bit more to do with tonemapping the whole thing down, then red can become a problem as maybe then its too bright for SDR.? Maybe. MadVR had this issue too at one point.

I think you wil find there are a heck of a lot of other examples we would be abe to dig up, I am not 100% sure its just down to bad mastering especially when the scenes in question are sitting in a 1000 nit film and a 300 nit shot in that film like Atomic Blonde though thats a lot of red, its probably also full BT2020 too, I remember it was one of the fims I showed to prove there was more than P3 in quite a lot of movies, maybe thats adding up to a bad scenario, asking for a LOT of colour volume then tone mapping it all down. 

Ill have a think for other films where it would pop up, I have seen it with other colours too, its not just red, I am talking globally here not just on the LRP. Ive spent a lot of time looking at hdr scopes of late and I just recall seeing other colours definitely doing it, blue and green for eg. it goes off the scale on the scopes when you apply a tone map to it, and you can tame it with tone curve steepness, or desat usually. From what I looked at, its also usually the point when you would start turning the pixels white as they exceed the scopes range which is obviously desat, that would appear like clipping looking at the RGB waveform, but when you then see in the luma channel the information is actually still there and its not clipping, but in this case I am still seeing flat tops in the luma channel until you increase dpad or max light a lot then the info comes back so thats classic clipping.


----------



## MDesigns

Javs said:


> This is a mistake, I forgot I am looking at SDR gamma, so me looking at the height of it and concluding its 4000 nits is wrong, its flat topping anyway, so regardless what nits it is, maybe its 1000 nits. But then does not explain why Atomic Blonde is also clipping red at 200-300 nits.


I almost asked earlier today if the scopes were the original HDR source or the tonemapped output. But this clarifies. Both(source and output) would be nice to compare, but maybe too much to ask? Awesome work you are doing!


----------



## Javs

MDesigns said:


> I almost asked earlier today if the scopes were the original HDR source or the tonemapped output. But this clarifies. Both(source and output) would be nice to compare, but maybe too much to ask? Awesome work you are doing!


That would be something I can definitely do, I will come back with that since I only need to show one image for each frame of the original HDR scopes. I dont even need lumagen for that. Of interest would be the RGB scopes vs the Luma scopes in the HDR versions.


----------



## Kris Deering

What about the red in the opening inside shot of the submarine in The Meg? I recall that one being difficult and the Radiance handling it quite differently thru different iterations of the tone mapping. I think that might still clip in fact.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> What about the red in the opening inside shot of the submarine in The Meg? I recall that one being difficult and the Radiance handling it quite differently thru different iterations of the tone mapping. I think that might still clip in fact.


Ill definitely check that.


----------



## Javs

Hey Jim is there a menu shortcut for BT709 output and BT2020 ?

Would be nice to switch between them more efficiently for testing. I couldnt see a menu shortcut for that in the manual. If its a lot of work to implement no biggie.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> What about the red in the opening inside shot of the submarine in The Meg? I recall that one being difficult and the Radiance handling it quite differently thru different iterations of the tone mapping. I think that might still clip in fact.


Ok yeah found some issues in the Meg too,

2000nits



Spoiler






















Next ill start with raw HDR file










This one is fine in BT2020.










But Rec709 clipped.










Fixed











Raw HDR










BT2020



















Fixed but quite extreme values to repair.










MadVR BT2020











LRP BT709

Desat Auto










Desat High



















MadVR BT709











Also this shot was clipping in the opening titles.

Raw HDR




















Summary, comparing all these its looking like needs a little work on behind the scenes desat to white for really bright pixels, this is I think separate to the Desat setting itself? I would expect to see when colours go off the scale on the right hand side scopes, that they get added white to them from that point, so if its red clipping, if you look at the scope just under the area you should also then see green and blue rising up under it to create white, then look bottom left scope at Luma at the corresponding area, that one should never flat top clip, that means info is truly lost. So, you can have colours on the right clip, but if everything is working right you look on the white scopes you should still see the info there not clipping, the last set of red shots show this really well.


----------



## Javs

MDesigns said:


> I almost asked earlier today if the scopes were the original HDR source or the tonemapped output. But this clarifies. Both(source and output) would be nice to compare, but maybe too much to ask? Awesome work you are doing!


I posted some with the new images, but here are a few I grabbed from notable shots ive already shared.


Spoiler


----------



## Geof

* Javs
Impressive work Javs....*


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> Hey Jim is there a menu shortcut for BT709 output and BT2020 ?
> 
> Would be nice to switch between them more efficiently for testing. I couldn't see a menu shortcut for that in the manual. If its a lot of work to implement no biggie.


You need to set up a different Output CMS for MEMB than is used for MEMA (which should be set to use the default CMS 0 for SDR and CMS 1 for HDR) using the output setup menu.

Assuming at defaults, in the MENU->Output->Output Setup->2D, press OK to enter the change menu. Then change the input to All, set memory to MEMB, and input mode to All using the left/right and up/down arrows, then right arrow under the CMS column for HDR/2020 and change it to, say, CMS 3. Then press OK, then press EXIT.

Use the Output->Copy command to copy CMS 0 to CMS 3. In the Output Copy command select CMSs and then CMS0 for source and then [EDIT] "copy to CMS3" [END EDIT] (or something similar for wording). Then accept by pressing OK.

Then select MEMB, and go into Output->CMSs->CMS3 and change the Colorspace to SDR709 (assuming CMS0 is set to SDR2020), and then make sure the HDR setup is On and the MaxLight is correct (which it will be if you copied from CMS0).

Then select MEMA so it is the power on default.

Then do a Save.

After this MEMA and MEMB are used to quickly switch CMSs. Note: There will be an output restart on the colorspace change from 2020 to 709.


----------



## jrp

We posted 062222. This is a fixup release for 060322 Beta 2.

Fix for HDR DeSat function broken in 060322.

Fix for input vertical shift problems with junk video displayed on bottom of screen.

This does not have the new source aspect ratios which we plan to add to Beta 3.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Good work Jim that was fast


----------



## bjorg

Chicagobear1 said:


> Good work Jim that was fast


I second that! Well done!


----------



## desray2k

Fantastic support from both Jim and Patrick! Thumbs up for Lumagen!


----------



## Naiera

Is it possible to add an audio delay feature to the software?


----------



## alv

I thought I had posted an innocent question about DeSat. Learned a lot since! Thanks for the details to all.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> Is it possible to add an audio delay feature to the software?


The audio comes into the HDMI input chips, then directly to the HDMI output chips. There is no way to add an audio delay.

We believe audio delay belongs in the audio processor.


----------



## jamesmil

Javs said:


> I posted some with the new images, but here are a few I grabbed from notable shots ive already shared.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3300801
> 
> 
> View attachment 3300802
> 
> 
> View attachment 3300803


Hey Javs, any chance you have a writeup on how you capture and generate these scope images? Super interesting, I'd love to learn more.


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> The audio comes into the HDMI input chips, then directly to the HDMI output chips. There is no way to add an audio delay.
> 
> We believe audio delay belongs in the audio processor.


 

It's an Apple issue anyway. Netflix and Star content in the Disney+ app works fine in 24Hz, but nothing else does. Obviously not an issue with the LRP as such.


----------



## Naiera

We tried to calibrate my LRP for BT.2020 last week but got some very weird readings in the color checker in Calman Home Enthusiast 2017. We're pretty sure we got the settings right, and everything seemed and looked fine, but a handful of the readings were _way _off, so we ended up doing a 709 autocal instead.

I'd love to calibrate for BT.2020 though (already ordered Atomic Blonde, seeing as it actually has deeper colours, which I was under the impression was extremely rare), so are there any tips as to how to go about it? How is it different from a normal 709 autocal? Only four or five of the reading were completely bonkers in the color checker, leading to a turrible dE average way, way above the usual 0.7 we always get, no matter the projector or Radiance being used.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> We tried to calibrate my LRP for BT.2020 last week but got some very weird readings in the color checker in Calman Home Enthusiast 2017. We're pretty sure we got the settings right, and everything seemed and looked fine, but a handful of the readings were _way _off, so we ended up doing a 709 autocal instead.
> 
> I'd love to calibrate for BT.2020 though (already ordered Atomic Blonde, seeing as it actually has deeper colours, which I was under the impression was extremely rare), so are there any tips as to how to go about it? How is it different from a normal 709 autocal? Only four or five of the reading were completely bonkers in the color checker, leading to a terrible dE average way, way above the usual 0.7 we always get, no matter the projector or Radiance being used.


Calman has not released their new color engine for the Radiance Pro that actually works for Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration. At this time you need to use Colourspace if you want to do a 3D LUT calibration for Rec 2020. Even with Colourspace you need to do an augmented 3D LUT.

Note: Calman works fine for a Rec 709 3D and 1D LUT calibration. It has also works well for a P3 (D65) 3D and 1D LUT calibration on projectors with a Gamut that gets close to or beyond P3 Gamut. You set the Pro output to P3 (colorspace = SDRP3. Auto convert is off for this calibration but needs to be turned back on for use) and choose a wide color Gamut mode in the projector. Then select patterns and targets as P3 D65 in Calman. Since P3 will use CMS0 at defaults, I suggest you calibrate CMS0 to P3, copy to CMS1 when complete, and then setup the HDR). If you use P3 for SDR, you only need the one calibration of CMS0. Just leave it as calibrated, but turn on Auto convert (in both CMS0 and CMS1) for content. This has worked well for others.

You also need to have an excellent color probe that is accurate to P3 and beyond. Professionals use a spectroradiometer (e.g. CR-250) to calibrate a professional reflective tri-stimulus colorimeter (e.g. CR-100, or Kline K-10A). These professional tri-stimulus probes are both accurate (after calibrating to the Spectro) and fast.

===== 

For JVC and Sony projectors which generally get near P3, but not much if any beyond, an accurate P3 calibration will give you nearly the same results as an accurate calibration to Rec 2020. When doing an augmented 3D LUT using Colourspace the augmented 3D LUT can help by rolling off colors near the Gamut limits instead of clipping the colors to P3. Since there is very little content beyond P3, this is currently a minor point.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> It's an Apple issue anyway. Netflix and Star content in the Disney+ app works fine in 24Hz, but nothing else does. Obviously not an issue with the LRP as such.


If you have a need for _different_ audio delays for various providers, or source devices, we did add a "Video Delay" feature for this case.

In the Radiance Pro set the Video Delay (Input->Options->A/V Delay) to 49 mS. Select for all inputs and input memories. Then adjust audio delay in the audio processor to match for lipsync. Then for sources that need a different video delay to match audio with the new audio processor audio delay change the video delay for that input, or for a specific input memory if one source needs more than one video delay adjustment to achieve lipsync.

Note: Generally a shorter additional video delay is better. So, if possible adjust for the source first that 49 mS works and is the longest required video delay. For example if you are gaming you will want the Game Input (or input memory) to be zero extra video delay (and perhaps use Game Mode as well). You can use longer video delays if the range of video delay required is more than 49 mS.

This will be automatic if the differences are "per input" but you manually will select the appropriate memory if one source device requires more than one video delay.

Note: For 24 Hertz content since the frame to frame variance in lipsync is 42 mS, you my want to consider enabling Genlock as "Auto24-Normal" (Input->Options->Genlock) for a source that you are having trouble getting 24 Hertz content lipsync just right. This is what I do in the Lumagen Demo theater. For 24 Hertz content Genlock, along with low latency mode in our RS4500, allows me to get lipsync just right. Also note that since the variance for 60 Hertz content is less at 16.7 mS, I find leaving Genlock Off works well for lipsync for this rate and does not introduce output restarts on every source change like Genlock Normal does. You can of course select Genlock as Auto-Normal so it is always active, and eliminate the variance for 60 Hertz (and 50 Hertz) content. I recommend you do _not_ use Genlock Auto-Fast, or Auto24-Fast.

Save your changes.


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> Calman has not released their new color engine for the Radiance Pro that actually works for Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration. At this time you need to use Colourspace if you want to do a 3D LUT calibration for Rec 2020. Even with Colourspace you need to do an augmented 3D LUT.


Then that explains why we got weird readings


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> If you have a need for _different_ audio delays for various providers, or source devices, we did add a "Video Delay" feature for this case.


It's the audio I need to delay 🤷‍♂️

I've yet to explore all the features. Maybe there's something I can use. What happens with Game Mode?


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> It's the audio I need to delay
> 
> I've yet to explore all the features. Maybe there's something I can use. What happens with Game Mode?


So, to achieve it with video delay - assuming you only have a single delay setting in your AVR - you work out how much extra audio delay margin you need for some sources. Add that as a video delay for all sources. Add the same amount of audio delay to your AVR. Now you are back to where you were before in terms of sync, but everything has a bit of extra latency. You can then effectively delay the Audio by reducing the video delay in the Lumagen on the sources that you want to delay.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

xPLAYRZx said:


> @jrp this is the temperature warning I was referring to. Triggered again last night.
> 
> 
> 
> LRP 5244 (Beta 050722 firmware)
> 
> View attachment 3293005


Just a follow up on the high temp errors. Still getting these on startup using both *Beta 060322* and *Beta 062222*. The error number is diiferent (180 & 179) respectively, but this occurs at least 50% of the time when booting device.


----------



## Naiera

bobof said:


> So, to achieve it with video delay - assuming you only have a single delay setting in your AVR - you work out how much extra audio delay margin you need for some sources. Add that as a video delay for all sources. Add the same amount of audio delay to your AVR. Now you are back to where you were before in terms of sync, but everything has a bit of extra latency. You can then effectively delay the Audio by reducing the video delay in the Lumagen on the sources that you want to delay.


I don't have an AVR 😅


----------



## Clark Burk

xPLAYRZx said:


> Just a follow up on the high temp errors. Still getting these on startup using both *Beta 060322* and *Beta 062222*. The error number is diiferent (180 & 179) respectively, but this occurs at least 50% of the time when booting device.


I'm curious did you try going back to 90121 firmware and then reinstalling the beta 062222. Sometimes going back to a known working firmware sets things right again.


----------



## jrp

xPLAYRZx said:


> Just a follow up on the high temp errors. Still getting these on startup using both *Beta 060322* and *Beta 062222*. The error number is diiferent (180 & 179) respectively, but this occurs at least 50% of the time when booting device.


We did have a startup issue with the temperature chip. Thought this was resolved, but perhaps not. Yours may be a hardware issue with your temperature chip.

You can email me at lumagen.com support and we can discuss options.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> I don't have an AVR 😅


Well, then you are SOL unless you can somehow add an audio delay into your system.
One unconventional way would be to find a mode that reduced processing time through your display - for example running game / low latency mode in a JVC projector would get you some significant audio delay effectively if you currently run with CMD, which you could then leverage by using configurable video delay in the Lumagen.
Or get some kind of non-AVR processor that can get you a delay. Maybe something like a MiniDSP / Behringer.
What are you actually using for audio then?


----------



## Naiera

It's all in my signature.


----------



## dlinsley

Naiera said:


> It's all in my signature.


How is you getting audio from your sources? Are you using the Oppo HDMI in? Maybe they are just relative (and so not an overall delay), but I thought you could set different distances/delays in the Oppo. I've not had my 103 connected in years.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> It's all in my signature.


That lot makes my head hurt!  I'm sure it sounds nice though.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Clark Burk said:


> I'm curious did you try going back to 90121 firmware and then reinstalling the beta 062222. Sometimes going back to a known working firmware sets things right again.


Nope, haven't tried that as yet. I've emailed Jim as per his advice. Will update on the outcome.


----------



## Naiera

dlinsley said:


> How is you getting audio from your sources? Are you using the Oppo HDMI in? Maybe they are just relative (and so not an overall delay), but I thought you could set different distances/delays in the Oppo. I've not had my 103 connected in years.


Coaxial from the Oppo, optical from the Panny, USB from the Mac Mini and coaxial from the scaler for the rest of the sources (consoles, Apple TV) using an Amazon Basics HDMI audio extractor in output 1 on the LRP. The extractor works without an HDMI cable in the output. The "Hegel HD25" in the sig is the DAC, and it has those four inputs, along with some other great features.

The video delay issue has been the same no matter which Lumagen I've used, and the issue was also the same when I used a JVC X30 projector. I had a RadianceXD for over a decade, then a 2123 for about a year and now the 4442+. Netflix and Star content in the Disney+ app works fine with match frequency on 24Hz content, but everything else (Hulu, Paramount+, Prime Video, iTunes content, Apple TV+, etc.) has the audio ahead of the video. I know it sounds nuts that there's a difference on the same device (the Apple TV 4K G1 also had this issue), but it's true. Hulu used to work, then the app got an update and then didn't. Netflix stopped working properly once or twice but resumed proper AV sync after updating. Never had any issues with the Oppo 83 or 103. I've added a 40ms delay on the Panasonic 824, but I know I'm not the only one who had to do that. 50Hz content in Hulu (yes, they have that, on this US-only streaming service) is fine.

This isn't really relevant for the thread though. I understand why there'll be no audio delay feature in Lumagen scalers.

I appreciate Jim's long replies in this thread and the PMs I've received, and I will read and respond as necessary tomorrow Tuesday. Didn't have the time Saturday evening and had different priorities today.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> Coaxial from the Oppo, optical from the Panny, USB from the Mac Mini and coaxial from the scaler for the rest of the sources (consoles, Apple TV) using an Amazon Basics HDMI audio extractor in output 1 on the LRP. The extractor works without an HDMI cable in the output. The "Hegel HD25" in the sig is the DAC, and it has those four inputs, along with some other great features.
> 
> The video delay issue has been the same no matter which Lumagen I've used, and the issue was also the same when I used a JVC X30 projector. I had a RadianceXD for over a decade, then a 2123 for about a year and now the 4442+. Netflix and Star content in the Disney+ app works fine with match frequency on 24Hz content, but everything else (Hulu, Paramount+, Prime Video, iTunes content, Apple TV+, etc.) has the audio ahead of the video. I know it sounds nuts that there's a difference on the same device (the Apple TV 4K G1 also had this issue), but it's true. Hulu used to work, then the app got an update and then didn't. Netflix stopped working properly once or twice but resumed proper AV sync after updating. Never had any issues with the Oppo 83 or 103. I've added a 40ms delay on the Panasonic 824, but I know I'm not the only one who had to do that. 50Hz content in Hulu (yes, they have that, on this US-only streaming service) is fine.
> 
> This isn't really relevant for the thread though. I understand why there'll be no audio delay feature in Lumagen scalers.
> 
> I appreciate Jim's long replies in this thread and the PMs I've received, and I will read and respond as necessary tomorrow. Didn't have the time Saturday evening and had different priorities today.


The X30 has much longer video latency than the newer JVC units in low latency mode. I don't know the Sony units very well, but if you can find a lower latency mode then that will happen in you some audio delay, there might be a specific low latency mode, or you might find that disabling some processing like Motionflow or something else can do it for you. Also if you can enable low latency mode in the Lumagen you would make some latency gain, but it does come at the cost I believe of DTM scene transitions being delayed.


----------



## Naiera

There's a low latency mode in the Sony that has to be enabled for _anything_ to have proper AV sync. I am not using any sort of motion flow or some garbage like that.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> There's a low latency mode in the Sony that has to be enabled for _anything_ to have proper AV sync. I am not using any sort of motion flow or some garbage like that.


Well, it's just a limitation of your system then I think. To be honest, you're lucky it works at all acceptably, as unfortunately stand-alone Hifi-DACs are for the most part not designed to be used where video sync is required. I imagine you are right on the far edge of "errors are not noticeable" territory for sync, which means as soon as you have a source that is slightly out it becomes subconsciously disturbing or worse. Normally you'd try and have your sync set such that small variations in source don't hit the threshold of being annoying, so your base line sync would aim to be in the middle of whatever variation you have. You have a -20/+40ms range typically within which you can not generally notice sync being out. Once you get outside of that you enter "subconsciously disturbing" territory. Following chart borrowed from here: https://www.prosoundtraining.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Lip-Sync-Errors.pdf

I'm sure there are solutions you could find which will add some delay to the SPDIF. Whether they're acceptable in the context of your hifi system is a question only you can answer.


----------



## Naiera

😳


----------



## jrp

Naiera:

For SDR content you can enable Game Mode in the Radiance Pro without it affecting the image results. In addition you can also enable Genlock as "Auto-Normal" so all content is genlocked. For 16:9 source on a 16:9 output, the delay through the Radiance Pro is approximately 3 mS if you enable game mode and Genlock for 16:9 input and 16:0 output aspect. 

You mention you disabled motion flow type of features. This helps. When there is a Low-Latency mode, it sounds like you have enabled it for devices that have it.

Note: You can enable Game Mode for HDR content, but then the new scene transfer-function change will be one frame late. HDR DTM still works other than this delay. If you do not engage Game Mode for HDR you can still enable Genlock.

Genlock does force an output restart on source changes. This means switching will sometimes be slower than without Genlock enabled.

Some sources do have an audio delay function. This can help if you need more lip-sync adjustment.

In the Input->Option->AV Sync menu there is the ability to enable the HDMI lip-sync function and manually program the audio and video settings. Like most things HDMI source devices historically have not gotten this right, and so we do not enable it by default. Also since projector and TVs historically either do not implement it of do not get it right, this is a manual setting. The Radiance Pro does not use the HDMI lip-sync info from the downstream TV/projector. I doubt the source device will heed this information but you can test it and see if programming audio to be after video works for some devices.

Save any changes you make in the Radiance Pro.

Adding an inexpensive audio processor to you system would be the best way to add audio delay, but this may not be something you want to do.

I hope this information is helpful.


----------



## alv

Happy Independence Day!

I think this is mostly the bottom line from the DeSat discussion. Jim, Javs, correct as you see fit.

1) It is now working again in the latest beta.

2) As originally implemented it works well on Auto for Disks mastered at 1000 nits. (without colorspace change).

3) For disks mastered at 4000 nits, there can be clipping especially if they are spots that are brighter than 4000. Then low or medium may be better but can change original colors but reduce clipping.

4) Jim and Patrick are looking to improve the algorithm for a future software release.

5) ?

Thanks for the insightful discussion!


----------



## woofer

alv said:


> 3) *For disks mastered at 4000 nits, there can be clipping* especially if they are spots that are brighter than 4000. Then low or medium may be better but can change original colors but reduce clipping.


As it turns out there is quite a lot of clipping !!


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> 😳


A lot of simple design hifi-DACs have latency through them that is basically the sample delay through the D to A converter (very little). Some will do clock-cleaning / re-clocking which may add a few samples of buffer, but none of it amounts to much. Whereas displays - outside of gaming - are notorious for having relatively long delays through them.

You could try a dedicated device like this (I have no experience nor affiliation with this device, check the detail specs to see if it is suitable... I note it is limited to 96k):





Felston DD740 - Digital Audio Delay to solve lip sync


Lip sync error correction for plasma tv, lcd television, home theater, home cinema, with a digital audio delay.



www.felston.com


----------



## Javs

Jim, I think I found the culprit for Beta causing lower PSNR scores in my test... I know you have had a peek at that.

But anyway, there is a stray line of pixels on the right hand side of the Lumagen output! Every 2nd pixel is black down the side.


----------



## Naiera

bobof said:


> A lot of simple design hifi-DACs have latency through them that is basically the sample delay through the D to A converter (very little). Some will do clock-cleaning / re-clocking which may add a few samples of buffer, but none of it amounts to much. Whereas displays - outside of gaming - are notorious for having relatively long delays through them.
> 
> You could try a dedicated device like this (I have no experience nor affiliation with this device, check the detail specs to see if it is suitable... I note it is limited to 96k):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Felston DD740 - Digital Audio Delay to solve lip sync
> 
> 
> Lip sync error correction for plasma tv, lcd television, home theater, home cinema, with a digital audio delay.
> 
> 
> 
> www.felston.com


The issue goes away if I remove the scaler. When my XD broke last year, before I had received the 2123, I used gamma correction in the projector (with horrible banding as a bonus), and there were no issues with lip sync on anything from the Apple TV.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> The issue goes away if I remove the scaler. When my XD broke last year, before I had received the 2123, I used gamma correction in the projector (with horrible banding as a bonus), and there were no issues with lip sync on anything from the Apple TV.


It's just nature of the beast - if you want to process video then there will be some delay. As it is the Lumagen has the lowest delays in the market. I think you've had quite a few suggestions for ways to minimize delay or make changes elsewhere in the system that might help with your issues, hopefully some combination of those suggestions can make your system work for you.


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> Jim, I think I found the culprit for Beta causing lower PSNR scores in my test... I know you have had a peek at that.
> 
> But anyway, there is a stray line of pixels on the right hand side of the Lumagen output! Every 2nd pixel is black down the side.


Javs:

Great job finding this. I will bring this to Patrick's attention and he should be able to get it resolved.

We appreciate you investigating this, and all your results. They are helpful to us making the Radiance Pro even better.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> Great job finding this. I will bring this to Patrick's attention and he should be able to get it resolved.
> 
> We appreciate you investigating this, and all your results. They are helpful to us making the Radiance Pro even better.


Happy to help!


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## Naiera

..


----------



## DigitalAV

If I wanted to boost detail in low light/shadowed scenes for HDR content, would I set the Low Ratio a bit higher?

Side note: Doctor Strange 2 was a really good showcase of how detailed and impressive bright highlights can be versus the SDR version. The movie itself was a bit of a mess.


----------



## jrp

DigitalAV said:


> If I wanted to boost detail in low light/shadowed scenes for HDR content, would I set the Low Ratio a bit higher? ...


Setting Low Ratio a bit higher will increase the brightness of dark scenes to some degree (but see the note below). This should allow you to see more dark area detail.

Note: Be aware the minimum the "Dark Scene Max Light" that is shown when you highlight Low Ratio can be is 75 nits (as I recall). If the Global Max Light is low enough that increasing Low Ratio does not reduce the "Dark Scene Max Light" then increasing it further will not change the transfer function further.


----------



## jbrinegar

Regarding the 'purple blip' that occurs with the new JVC NZ series projectors and lumagen, I know a few weeks ago Kris Deering posted a setting that seemed to help mitigate this.

Now that a few weeks have passed, Im wondering if those that have tried this setting to reduce or eliminate the issue, has it worked pretty well?


----------



## HTTR17

Yes moved jvc from auto to 422 color and zero blips since.


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## Naiera

jrp said:


> Note: For 24 Hertz content since the frame to frame variance in lipsync is 42 mS, you my want to consider enabling Genlock as "Auto24-Normal" (Input->Options->Genlock) for a source that you are having trouble getting 24 Hertz content lipsync just right. This is what I do in the Lumagen Demo theater. For 24 Hertz content Genlock, along with low latency mode in our RS4500, allows me to get lipsync just right. Also note that since the variance for 60 Hertz content is less at 16.7 mS, I find leaving Genlock Off works well for lipsync for this rate and does not introduce output restarts on every source change like Genlock Normal does. You can of course select Genlock as Auto-Normal so it is always active, and eliminate the variance for 60 Hertz (and 50 Hertz) content. I recommend you do _not_ use Genlock Auto-Fast, or Auto24-Fast.


This seems to have done it. Last week, I accidentally started an episode of Only Murders on Hulu in 24Hz and video was like half a second late  Now, everything is within an acceptable range where I can just stop looking for it and start watching.

This is some big news for me 😳 Tons of movies just became available to me at 24Hz  Also gon' be good to catch the last ep this season of The Boys tonight in 4K _and_ 24Hz.

Of course, 24Hz instead of 59.94 from the Apple TV also helps the temperature of the scaler, so it's really a huge win.


----------



## edthomp

jbrinegar said:


> Regarding the 'purple blip' that occurs with the new JVC NZ series projectors and lumagen, I know a few weeks ago Kris Deering posted a setting that seemed to help mitigate this.
> 
> Now that a few weeks have passed, Im wondering if those that have tried this setting to reduce or eliminate the issue, has it worked pretty well?


I was on the pre-production JVC firmware for the NZ series so didn't have the issue in the first place. But I wanted to get the projector to the latest firmware after the fix came out. For several weeks the latest JVC firmware in combination with the fix has produced no issues.


----------



## Kris Deering

Changing the color space definitely resolves it. I've had it that way for awhile now without a single blip. Yesterday I was building some configs and using HDMI 2 on the projector. On that input the colorspace is still set to AUTO and in the hour or so I was working I had the blip quite often. So I think I would have seen it a long time ago if the colorspace change hadn't fixed it.


----------



## docrog

I noticed that my Darbee & Sharpness values have now defaulted to "OFF" each time that I power up the RP, as well as when changing content (without changing the RP input source). It seems to me that these values remained on their "last" settings in prior firmware versions. Is this a bug in the new Beta firmware or am I mistaken about these values previously being maintained? Thanks!


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I noticed that my Darbee & Sharpness values have now defaulted to "OFF" each time that I power up the RP, as well as when changing content (without changing the RP input source). It seems to me that these values remained on their "last" settings in prior firmware versions. Is this a bug in the new Beta firmware or am I mistaken about these values previously being maintained? Thanks!


I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. They remember whatever state they were in last time the config was saved. So you'd have done a save at some point with them off.

The only settings which I believe can be made to have some persistence across standby (not full power cycle) are the input selections.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. They remember whatever state they were in last time the config was saved. So you'd have done a save at some point with them off.
> 
> The only settings which I believe can be made to have some persistence across standby (not full power cycle) are the input selections.


Thanks for responding, but I'm almost certain that this is a new bug. I just attempted to access the Sharpness/Darbee settings and they were both "OFF". I then changed them to my preferred "ON" settings and immediately pressed "MENU" and saved. Unfortunately, without otherwise changing anything else, the settings had again defaulted to "OFF". I then re-enabled them and pressed "EXIT" to get the settings off the display. Pressing the right arrow again showed that both Sharpness & Darbee had reset to "OFF"; the same conditions hold true if I attempt to remove the settings from the display by using "CLEAR" on the remote. I hope that Jim will look into this, as it seems that these settings no longer "stick" in real time; I've just sent an email to Lumagen support so that he's aware of my issue.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> Thanks for responding, but I'm almost certain that this is a new bug. I just attempted to access the Sharpness/Darbee settings and they were both "OFF". I then changed them to my preferred "ON" settings and immediately pressed "MENU" and saved. Unfortunately, without otherwise changing anything else, the settings had again defaulted to "OFF". I then re-enabled them and pressed "EXIT" to get the settings off the display. Pressing the right arrow again showed that both Sharpness & Darbee had reset to "OFF"; the same conditions hold true if I attempt to remove the settings from the display by using "CLEAR" on the remote. I hope that Jim will look into this, as it seems that these settings no longer "stick" in real time; I've just sent an email to Lumagen support so that he's aware of my issue.


That might be a new bug then. I was pretty certain though that if you turned the unit off / standby that they did not persist without saving first though, but I could be wrong!


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> That might be a new bug then. I was pretty certain though that if you turned the unit off / standby that they did not persist without saving first though, but I could be wrong!


FYI, I didn't power down or enter stand-by mode when just attempting to access these features; they're apparently not sticking at all. Also, I'm almost certain that previously they did carry over after entering either of those power states. I have every expectation that Jim will follow-up here and/or via email.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I didn't power down or enter stand-by mode when just attempting to access these features.


Yes, that sounds plain broken then. Are you on the latest beta? I am, I'll try it this evening.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Yes, that sounds plain broken then. Are you on the latest beta? I am, I'll try it this evening.


Yes, most recently released (re-vised) Beta. I didn't update to the initial Beta release because there were known bugs that required a fix, so I waited until the release of 062222. FYI, Jim has already acknowledged my email and has stated that he'd check it out.


----------



## Clark Burk

I just checked this out. I didn't seem to have that problem. I'm on 062222 beta. For both sharpness and Darbee the settings stuck even after going to standby then back to on. I switched them from default on to off saved the settings then turned the LRP off. Turned it back on and both settings were off. Then I switched both settings back on(Yes), saved and turned the LRP off. Turned the LRP back on again and both settings were still on(Yes). As far as I can tell unless I'm doing something different It's working as it should.
You may want to make sure you haven't switched inputs or changed resolution as these aren't saved globally. I did try to change the global settings for both sharpness and Darbee and noticed these would not change and stayed --- --- --- . I don't use the global setting for those so I'm not quite sure how that works though.


----------



## jrp

docroc:

I just checked as well. I changed the Darbee setting to On, and Saved. Went to Standby and back on. The change was Saved. Works the other way as well.

Changes will not affect other inputs resolutions. So, you can have different settings for each input resolution. Because of this, for example, if you set sharpness for 1080, it does not affect 4k sources.

After a change you need to press OK to accept the change, and then do a Save.

At default your change affects all inputs and input memories, for one resolution, since the default is to use the "-0" memory for each input resolution. If you want different settings for different inputs, or input memories, you need to change the input memory "indirection" to point to a different input memory for that input or input memory.

Based on my testing there is not a bug for this in the Beta 2 fixup release.


----------



## Clark Burk

Jim just so I understand you correctly if I make a sharpness setting and save it for let’s say 1080p then that setting will be in effect for all inputs and memories that input a 1080p signal?


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> docrog: *After a change you need to press OK to accept the change, and then do a Save. *Based on my testing there is not a bug for this in the Beta 2 fixup release.


Thanks for following up, Jim. You're correct, the sharpness & Darbee will stick, but only after I push "OK". It had been such a long time since I'd updated the firmware that I'd totally forgotten that important step. FYI, since I only use 1 RP input (no additional memories in my plain vanilla HT setup) the RP was automatically saving the settings (Darbee not functioning in 4K) even when I switched back and forth between 1080p & UHD source material so long as the RP was powered on. I did have to save both the HD & UHD settings prior to powering off for them to be enabled when powering back on. I really appreciate everyone for weighing in and I'm glad that this was my user error and not a bug in the firmware. Sorry for the false alarm!


----------



## Htnut2000

Naiera said:


> This seems to have done it. Last week, I accidentally started an episode of Only Murders on Hulu in 24Hz and video was like half a second late  Now, everything is within an acceptable range where I can just stop looking for it and start watching.
> 
> This is some big news for me 😳 Tons of movies just became available to me at 24Hz  Also gon' be good to catch the last ep this season of The Boys tonight in 4K _and_ 24Hz.
> 
> Of course, 24Hz instead of 59.94 from the Apple TV also helps the temperature of the scaler, so it's really a huge win.


You may have tried this already but just in case.
The Apple TV has a calibration called "wireless audio sync' found in settings >audio and video> Calibration.
It uses an iPhone to measure the delay. A small gotcha is that you have to repeat this for every framerate that you might use


----------



## fatherom

Htnut2000 said:


> You may have tried this already but just in case.
> The Apple TV has a calibration called "wireless audio sync' found in settings >audio and video> Calibration.
> It uses an iPhone to measure the delay. A small gotcha is that you have to repeat this for every framerate that you might use


This is only for wireless audio devices (airpods, airpods max, homepods, etc) - if you're running audio through HDMI to an AVR, for example, the Wireless Audio Sync on the apple tv does nothing.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

fatherom said:


> This is only for wireless audio devices (airpods, airpods max, homepods, etc) - if you're running audio through HDMI to an AVR, for example, the Wireless Audio Sync on the apple tv does nothing.


It does work with your HDMI to your AVR. I have used it before.


----------



## Naiera

Htnut2000 said:


> You may have tried this already but just in case.
> The Apple TV has a calibration called "wireless audio sync' found in settings >audio and video> Calibration.
> It uses an iPhone to measure the delay. A small gotcha is that you have to repeat this for every framerate that you might use


Tried and didn't work.

Though I think that's how I figured out that Star content in Disney+ worked, before the Genlock miracle of a few days ago.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Jim just so I understand you correctly if I make a sharpness setting and save it for let’s say 1080p then that setting will be in effect for all inputs and memories that input a 1080p signal?


Yes, if you have the input memory "indirection" at factory defaults.

A bit more detail: If you select a 1080 source and go into the Input->In Configs you will see a * by 1080 meaning that input resolution is 1080. Then you will see the blue background sub-menu has a * (and a check mark) by 1080-0. The * shows the active input memory. There is a check mark is by each input memory ("-0" to "-7") that is referenced by the current configuration. At default all inputs and all input memories for 1080 sources point to "1080-0" so any changes for one 1080 input affects them all.


----------



## fatherom

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> It does work with your HDMI to your AVR. I have used it before.


That doesn't really make much sense, mainly because I've read dozens of articles, including Apple's own documentation of the feature. The whole point of "wireless audio sync" is to correct for sync issues when playing back via wireless audio devices (bluetooth headphones, airpods, etc). Apple's website even says this. The feature is not meant to adjust audio delay when using HDMI as the means to carry audio to an AVR (or TV, etc).

I have used the feature extensively (love my Airpods Max) and researched it extensively. That's why the feature is called "*Wireless* Audio Sync".

EDIT: it does seem (just did some quick googling) that some people with AVRs are able to use this, but those stories seem less common. The primary purpose of this is to sync the sound coming from your TV with wireless speakers if you happen to be using those as well (or just using wireless speakers, like headphones). And as @Naiera mentioned, it didn't work for him.


----------



## Naiera

I don't have an AVR though 

Rasmus Larsen of Flatpanels says it can work with non-wireless setups, too, I believe.


----------



## AmigoHD

HEAT problems!

I got a new 4242-18G delivered today. The units is getting very hot (alarm signal after only a few mins) and then loses pictures.
Tried factory reset, fw-update to latests stable a few times. All the time the unit is more than 120C. Fan speed is set to max (10) but I don't hear ANYTHING from the fan. And no air flow.
Did I maybe get a defective unit? Sounds like the fan is dead. Any ideas?

@jrp

RESOLVED! One fan cable was off. Could fix it myself. Now it is running smooth and cool.


----------



## jqmn

Dithering Question-- Could someone help with laying out the decision parameters to set the LRP dithering control? Should it be used and if so is there a preferred setting for DVD/BD and/or 4K? Does it also vary for content (or sink device) regardless of format (bit depth)? Also, with respect to my Sony 4K projector, as one moves to finer and finer black and white line patterns, the patterns to become purplish in tint instead holding to the black and white of the source. Is this an indication that the Sony is dithering (although it is a B&W pattern, not a R & B one) and thus using the LRP one can, in effect, double up on dithering inadvertently (or just bad processing by Sony)? Thanks.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Deleted


----------



## Clark Burk

AmigoHD said:


> HEAT problems!
> 
> I got a new 4242-18G delivered today. The units is getting very hot (alarm signal after only a few mins) and then loses pictures.
> Tried factory reset, fw-update to latests stable a few times. All the time the unit is more than 120C. Fan speed is set to max (10) but I don't hear ANYTHING from the fan. And no air flow.
> Did I maybe get a defective unit? Sounds like the fan is dead. Any ideas?
> 
> @jrp
> 
> RESOLVED! One fan cable was off. Could fix it myself. Now it is running smooth and cool.


The way UPS and FedEx throw packages around I'm surprised there aren't more issues. I'm very leary to send anything unless it's absolutely necessary.
Since the fan is working now you could try a lower fan setting if you haven't already changed it. I set mine a bit higher than default at 5 and I can't hear it from where it's located. I like to keep it on the cool side.
Off topic.... Yesterday I got my monthly Chewy shipment and when I opened the box I noticed a plastic container of cat treats had cracked open and were all over the inside of the box. My cats were very eager to help me open the box .


----------



## EVH78

AmigoHD said:


> HEAT problems!
> 
> I got a new 4242-18G delivered today. The units is getting very hot (alarm signal after only a few mins) and then loses pictures.
> Tried factory reset, fw-update to latests stable a few times. All the time the unit is more than 120C. Fan speed is set to max (10) but I don't hear ANYTHING from the fan. And no air flow.
> Did I maybe get a defective unit? Sounds like the fan is dead. Any ideas?
> 
> @jrp
> 
> RESOLVED! One fan cable was off. Could fix it myself. Now it is running smooth and cool.


Open the top and take a look inside (screws on rear and sides). Fans are fairly easy to swap. You should hear the fan right at startup.


----------



## AmigoHD

EVH78 said:


> Open the top and take a look inside (screws on rear and sides). Fans are fairly easy to swap. You should hear the fan right at startup.


Thx. Opened it. One fan cable was not fitted. Fixed now. Fan working.


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> Calman has not released their new color engine for the Radiance Pro that actually works for Rec 2020 3D LUT calibration. At this time you need to use Colourspace if you want to do a 3D LUT calibration for Rec 2020. Even with Colourspace you need to do an augmented 3D LUT.
> 
> Note: Calman works fine for a Rec 709 3D and 1D LUT calibration. It has also works well for a P3 (D65) 3D and 1D LUT calibration on projectors with a Gamut that gets close to or beyond P3 Gamut. You set the Pro output to P3 (colorspace = SDRP3. Auto convert is off for this calibration but needs to be turned back on for use) and choose a wide color Gamut mode in the projector. Then select patterns and targets as P3 D65 in Calman. Since P3 will use CMS0 at defaults, I suggest you calibrate CMS0 to P3, copy to CMS1 when complete, and then setup the HDR). If you use P3 for SDR, you only need the one calibration of CMS0. Just leave it as calibrated, but turn on Auto convert (in both CMS0 and CMS1) for content. This has worked well for others.
> 
> You also need to have an excellent color probe that is accurate to P3 and beyond. Professionals use a spectroradiometer (e.g. CR-250) to calibrate a professional reflective tri-stimulus colorimeter (e.g. CR-100, or Kline K-10A). These professional tri-stimulus probes are both accurate (after calibrating to the Spectro) and fast.
> 
> =====
> 
> For JVC and Sony projectors which generally get near P3, but not much if any beyond, an accurate P3 calibration will give you nearly the same results as an accurate calibration to Rec 2020. When doing an augmented 3D LUT using Colourspace the augmented 3D LUT can help by rolling off colors near the Gamut limits instead of clipping the colors to P3. Since there is very little content beyond P3, this is currently a minor point.


P3 calibration seems like exactly the thing to go for!

My probe is an X-Rite i1 Display Pro. 

If anyone could provide more exact info on how to do this P3 calibration with my projector and software, I would very much appreciate it. My friend hasn't calibrated professionally for years now and I can't help much because I have zero certifications or experience. All I can do is read and try to understand what I see here as well as possible  I'm still not perfectly clear on why I need two use two CMS memories, for example.


----------



## Kris Deering

jqmn said:


> Dithering Question-- Could someone help with laying out the decision parameters to set the LRP dithering control? Should it be used and if so is there a preferred setting for DVD/BD and/or 4K? Does it also vary for content (or sink device) regardless of format (bit depth)? Also, with respect to my Sony 4K projector, as one moves to finer and finer black and white line patterns, the patterns to become purplish in tint instead holding to the black and white of the source. Is this an indication that the Sony is dithering (although it is a B&W pattern, not a R & B one) and thus using the LRP one can, in effect, double up on dithering inadvertently (or just bad processing by Sony)? Thanks.


I would not recommend using dithering unless you have a 9G output, in which case the dithering is automatic for 60p sources. 

The purple issue you are seeing is a known issue with Sony projectors and something they say is intentional and not visible with normal content.


----------



## jrp

jqmn said:


> Dithering Question-- Could someone help with laying out the decision parameters to set the LRP dithering control? Should it be used and if so is there a preferred setting for DVD/BD and/or 4K? Does it also vary for content (or sink device) regardless of format (bit depth)? Also, with respect to my Sony 4K projector, as one moves to finer and finer black and white line patterns, the patterns to become purplish in tint instead holding to the black and white of the source. Is this an indication that the Sony is dithering (although it is a B&W pattern, not a R & B one) and thus using the LRP one can, in effect, double up on dithering inadvertently (or just bad processing by Sony)? Thanks.


If dither is set to "Auto" the Radiance Pro dithers to the output bit deep. If you are outputting 4:2:2 the output is not dithered in this case. For 4:2:0 the output is 8-bit and the Pro will dither to 8-bits.

In manual dither setting you can dither to a different bit depth. For example, if you are outputting 4:2:2 12-bit, and your projector has issues with contouring due to its internal pipeline, or DLP/LCOS precision, being less than 12-bits, you can set the dither to, for example, 10-bits and see if this helps.

I do not know of any projectors that add their own dither internally. Even if so, IMO it would be okay for the Pro to dither.

Color issues near black indicate an issue in the projector light-engine accuracy near black. In some cases using the Radiance Pro dither can mitigate this issue. Another issue that dithering to fewer bits can help is that some projectors and TVs have contouring near black. In most cases this can be mitigated by dithering to fewer bits.


----------



## jrp

AmigoHD said:


> Thx. Opened it. One fan cable was not fitted. Fixed now. Fan working.


This is a miss on our part since we solder the fan wires to the main board. I am looking into a better production process for this.

Sorry for the issue.


----------



## jqmn

jrp said:


> Color issues near black indicate an issue in the projector light-engine accuracy near black. In some cases using the Radiance Pro dither can mitigate this issue. Another issue that dithering to fewer bits can help is that some projectors and TVs have contouring near black. In most cases this can be mitigated by dithering to fewer bits.


Thank-you @jrp and @Kris Deering for your comments and help. Since I have 18G out now I will turn dithering off per Kris' suggestion and run with it for a while.

Jim, Kris had it right, it isn't a problem near black, it is an issue as the line geometry (resolution) of the pattern gets fine. I'm not surprised Sony would say it isn't noticeable in real content; I am surprised they say it intentional.


----------



## Bubblehead00

Has anyone swapped out the small axial fan in the RP 4242 with a centrifugal fan to better direct the airflow over the FPGA's heat sink? If so, which fan did you use? I'm comfortable soldering.


----------



## Naiera

Getting a ~80mm cabinet cooling fan and having it blow air into the vent above the RS-232 port is a less risky solution. Works well here.


----------



## Clark Burk

Bubblehead00 said:


> Has anyone swapped out the small axial fan in the RP 4242 with a centrifugal fan to better direct the airflow over the FPGA's heat sink? If so, which fan did you use? I'm comfortable soldering.


Even if I was a pro at soldering I see no merit in this. I trust the engineers at Lumagen to design the unit for good cooling. If you are getting high temps then perhaps your unit has an issue or the placement of the LRP is not sufficient for best cooling. I would suggest contacting Lumagen and discussing it with them. 
That said it's your unit to do with as you see fit. I would think any modification such as what you are discussing would void your warranty however.


----------



## jrp

A comment on additional cooling:

The Radiance Pro fan keeping the "CHIP temperature" (a.k.a. the FPGA) at 84C or less meets functional specifications since we synthesize to the 85C worst-case FPGA speed numbers. In the 2U models, the FPGA temperature will not get a lot less than this without the fan getting loud or adding an external fan to increase airflow.

For the 1U units, even running at the default of "minimum fan speed = 2" typically keeps the FPGA in the mid to upper 70C range. This is an improvement versus the 2U models due to the larger and quieter fan. The 1U units run even cooler if you are able to turn the minimum fan speed higher without the slight increase in fan noise being an issue. If the unit is in a rack in another room or in a cabinet/closest, I recommend setting the minimum fan speed to 10 (the highest setting).

I changed the airflow path in the 5XXX series to reduce the CHIP temperature further, and even at the default of 2, the FPGA is typically in the mid to upper 50C range.

===

Recent questions on cooling prompted me to investigate further, and I found (as I previously posted) a 15C reduction in die temperature should on average double the life of an integrated circuit. In the 4XXX 1U, you can likely get the FPGA temperature below 70C turning up the fan, which on average should double its life versus the 84C target. So, an external fan should not be needed. With the 5XXX, and turning the fan speed up a bit to get the FPGA temperature down to 54C would in theory quadruple the average FPGA life versus the 84C target.

Increasing the airflow reduces the temperature of all the integrated circuits. While the difference in temperature will be less for other chips, cooler is still better.

===

For those of you with the 2U Radiance Pro units, adding an additional fan to blow air into the vents above the RS232 port is a reasonable approach to reduce the FPGA chip temperature, and (on average) increase the life of your Radiance Pro.

===

Finally, for the 1U units you _must_ keep a space below the unit for the cool air inlet. Literally yesterday someone called about a unit overheating and it turned out it was in a rack with no space below the Radiance Pro. Easy fix was to move the unit so it had a 1U space below the unit.

Note that for 1U models the air exhaust is on the top of the unit and you should leave a space above as well. However, if you have a 4xxx 1U unit built in the past couple of years, I did put an array of vents on the back of the 4XXX 1U case so they can get by without a space above in a pinch. The FPGA will run warmer in this case though. If your unit is older and does not have an array of vents on the back, you must leave a 1U space above the unit.

The 5XXX models exhaust is only on the top of the unit. So, the 5XXX models need a 1U space below and above the Radiance Pro for airflow.


----------



## Technology3456

_Moved 3D lut question to processor comp thread. _

Also, do either the 4xxx or 5xxx models still have Darbee for 1080p films or is that gone?


----------



## Naiera

Darpee is still there.


----------



## Javs

Jim,

One of the films I was testing, I noticed the metadata is kinda dud on it which explains why the LRP images of that particular film were clipping quite a bit on default settings..

This showed clipping on the Lumagen when I used the Auto MaxCLL settings in LRP. If I override it to 'Always' and have 4000 nits and above, it pretty much reigns in the clipping seen in that particular film. though that doesnt solve all the other films I tested with metadata that is fine. Also doesnt solve the BT709 slightly clipping on that if I enable gamut conversion too.

In any case, it may have actually revealed or brought to light a logic issue that I have with the LRP DTN choices.

Here is the metadata for Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. You can see the Master Lum is 4000 nits, but they incorrectly have the MaxCLL set to 500 nits, there is definitely way higher shots in that hence I th ink the LRP was defaulting its clippinng point to 500 nits and thats why I could get it to show so much clipping?










Now this begs a very important question, what if anything does that MaxCLL LRP setting even do? At what point do you consider the metadata invalid? Because in this case it certainly is, and LRP is certainly clipping a LOT as a result in this film.

Im guessing if there is no metadata at all, or its just reported 0, then you would default to the MaxCLL LRP setting? Which by default would be 4000 nits? Thats fine if so, but only for that specific use case. But we know that there is a lot of metadata out there that is wrong in other ways.

I propose you adjust the logic so that if the Mastering Lum reported is higher than the MaxCLL or, certainly a clean 1000 or 4000 number, then follow that and set the LRP baseline to 1000 or 4000 nits, Its DTM anyway so it shouldn't result in a dark image since you are already measuring the peaks on the fly?

If the Mastering Lum is 1000 nits and the MaxCLL is 4000 or, simply, higher than reported mastering lum, then I would suggest then following the MaxCLL setting in the LRP set by the user (ive noticed this still does not work past 4000 nits). In this case you could leave the Auto function to clip to mastering monitor (if valid) and we appease the idea that is what the colorist saw as clipping on his mastering monitor past the actual peak, as we know the pulsar clips above 4000 etc, but then the MaxCLL option if you set to Always would then adhere strictly to that, so for instance, I could have 10,000 in there if I never want to see clipping and it would actually work?

Or have another option in that menu:
"Clip to Reported Mastering Monitor Peak" Yes, or No.

If No, then follow the entered value, in my case 10,000.
Or, perhaps clip to measured frame peaks (even easier and renders the need to even enter a value unnecessary.)

If I am totally off the mark and how I am assuming the logic is working please let me know, this is just what I am gathering based on the metadata and what that setting is doing.

Example of what that setting affects as a result of trusting the maxcll and not the mastering monitor.

MaxCLL setting Auto.











MaxcCLL Override Always


----------



## bjorg

I'm curious if my input switching delays would improve by hard coding the EDID. What setting should I use in the LRP to ensure all possible audio formats remain enabled?


----------



## Kris Deering

Menu 0943 enables all audio formats


----------



## jrp

Javs:

Thanks for your suggestions on Metadata usage. The choice to use the source Metadata has been a tough one since as you point out some content gets it wrong. Patrick, Kris Deering, and myself, have gone back and forth on this a number of times. Some movies benefit from using MaxCLL (BR2049 for example), but there seem to be a lot more titles that get it wrong, and source devices that get it wrong.

One of the reasons the "Always use Default Max" mode exists is to allow Radiance Pro owners to choose to let the Radiance Pro DTM always determine the MaxCLL for each scene (and for each frame).

We continue to look at the best option for this, and continue to consider eliminating any use of the source MaxCLL Metadata. We would then the DTM analysis decide the MaxCLL to use for each scene and frame of content.

One sad part of all this is content providers can't get Metadata, that can be automatically generated, correct. This is a huge miss on the part of the content providers, and streamers, that get this wrong.

==== 

You also commented on color clipping versus desaturation. This too is a difficult trade-off. If colors are desaturated, it must in turn reduce the brightness of that scene. I noticed this in your Mad Max: Fury Road flare screen shots. For projectors, I think there are times where a small amount of clipping on highly saturated colors is a better option then the brightness being reduced, perhaps significantly. I understand your point about never clipping, but also feel there are scenes where some clipping is the better trade-off.

You commented asking "why is red clipping in a 300 nit scene?" This is a result of the way the math works for DTM. If the scene has a MaxCLL of 300, the maximum brightness for that scene is set to 300 nits. This lowers the point where a colors saturate. Said another way, for a 300 nit scene the colors will saturate a lot more on a 80 nit projector than on a 800 nit TV. It is just part of the math used to adapt the transfer function to optimize the projector image for the limited maximum light output available.

Based on your "never clip" comment you likely disagree with our choice concerning desaturation versus color clipping for very saturated colors, but there are reasons we have chosen to do what we do for the Radiance Pro DTM. That said, I agree with you that we can perhaps improve this aspect of DTM and I have asked Patrick to put color desaturation on the list for when he gets back to working on the DTM.

==== 

Thanks again for your posts. They provide excellent feedback and will help us continue to improve the Radiance Pro.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> I'm curious if my input switching delays would improve by hard coding the EDID. What setting should I use in the LRP to ensure all possible audio formats remain enabled?


If you set up the Pro to "match frame rate" the frame rate changes means the switching speed is dominated by the time it takes your projector to lock on the HDMI signal after the change.

This in turn has several parts. The first is changes from the source. and the second is changes on the Pro output side. For faster switching if you set all sources to output 4k60 (in the USA), and the Pro to output to output 4k60 this reduces the times the Pro needs to lock on to a source change, and the projector to lock on a Pro output change.

The third part of the above is audio format changes. These too cause output restarts. Especially for an 18 GHz output board on a 4242, one chip supports both an audio (Output 1), and a video + audio output (Output 2). Restarting the output due to an audio change will restart the video output as well.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> For faster switching if you set *all* *sources* to output 4k60 (in the USA), and the Pro to output to output 4k60 this reduces the times the Pro needs to lock on to a source change, and the projector to lock on a Pro output change.


Jim, wouldn't forcing *all* *sources* to output at 4k60 defeat the RP's significantly better upscaling of legacy resolution content for HD Blu-Ray and streaming/cable TV content?


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Jim, wouldn't forcing *all* *sources* to output at 4k60 defeat the RP's significantly better upscaling of legacy resolution content for HD Blu-Ray and streaming/cable TV content?


I miss-spoke for this a bit. There are two parts:

Always outputting 4k (which I did not intend. I blame my fingers)

Always output 60 Hertz (which I did intend). So for a source that can be programmed for these parameters, you would choose 1080 content to output at 1080p60, and 4k content to output 4k60.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> We continue to look at the best option for this, and continue to consider eliminating any use of the source MaxCLL Metadata. We would then the DTM analysis decide the MaxCLL to use for each scene and frame of content.


Hi Jim,
I would like to know what the problem is if you decide to ignore the video metadata. Are they really necessary?
I was hoping that producers would improve this over time, but the percentage of material with wrong metadata (and quite a lot) continues to be high.
Do we really have to contaminate the quality of vision with this compromise?
It would be nice to understand what a difference it would be to ignore metadata, what would be worse and what would be better.

I'm sure the best decision will be made.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions on Metadata usage. The choice to use the source Metadata has been a tough one since as you point out some content gets it wrong. Patrick, Kris Deering, and myself, have gone back and forth on this a number of times. Some movies benefit from using MaxCLL (BR2049 for example), but there seem to be a lot more titles that get it wrong, and source devices that get it wrong.
> 
> One of the reasons the "Always use Default Max" mode exists is to allow Radiance Pro owners to choose to let the Radiance Pro DTM always determine the MaxCLL for each scene (and for each frame).


All the more reason to not even be bound by the MaxCLL in the first place though?

But hang on you seem to be asserting something pretty big here, this seems to indicate the LRP is not actually measuring frame peaks and adapting to them? If your DTM was dynamic and measuring frame peaks none of this should matter at all past the first 5 seconds of a film? Do I have that wrong? Is the LRP not measuring frames and using that as your tone mapping baseline ongoing? It shouldnt matter if an entire movie is 1000 nits or 100 nits if you were measuring the frame peaks, your rolling average would quickly adapt to it and stay there?



jrp said:


> We continue to look at the best option for this, and continue to consider eliminating any use of the source MaxCLL Metadata. We would then the DTM analysis decide the MaxCLL to use for each scene and frame of content.


So this sounds like you can do proper dynamic frame measuring and use that as the basis for your tone mapping, I implore you, this IS the way. Dont be held to metadata, you shouldnt even need it at all.



jrp said:


> One sad part of all this is content providers can't get Metadata, that can be automatically generated, correct. This is a huge miss on the part of the content providers, and streamers, that get this wrong.


Agree, but if your DTM is measuring on the fly you will no longer be beholden to it being correct or not so you will never have to look at it again.



jrp said:


> You also commented on color clipping versus desaturation. This too is a difficult trade-off. If colors are desaturated, it must in turn reduce the brightness of that scene. I noticed this in your Mad Max: Fury Road flare screen shots. For projectors, I think there are times where a small amount of clipping on highly saturated colors is a better option then the brightness being reduced, perhaps significantly. I understand your point about never clipping, but also feel there are scenes where some clipping is the better trade-off.


I am not using the term desaturation in the sence that you actually make the scene darker, more that you would have to add white to the colours as the colours are exceeding the waveform and illegal for the brightness on the rest of the scene, so in order to maintain the luminance that its asking for you would begin to add white and perceptually it would actually get brighter not darker. The flares losing information completeley though is not serving the image any favours, its more detrimental.



jrp said:


> You commented asking "why is red clipping in a 300 nit scene?" This is a result of the way the math works for DTM. If the scene has a MaxCLL of 300, the maximum brightness for that scene is set to 300 nits. This lowers the point where a colors saturate. Said another way, for a 300 nit scene the colors will saturate a lot more on a 80 nit projector than on a 800 nit TV. It is just part of the math used to adapt the transfer function to optimize the projector image for the limited maximum light output available.


Yes, I know how that works, I find colour clipping to be a lot more noticeable than adding a little white to the colours on the extreme edge cases so they never clip, but for different brightness projectors or TV's ideally that algorithm would scale with the dtm settings though.



jrp said:


> Based on your "never clip" comment you likely disagree with our choice concerning desaturation versus color clipping for very saturated colors, but there are reasons we have chosen to do what we do for the Radiance Pro DTM. That said, I agree with you that we can perhaps improve this aspect of DTM and I have asked Patrick to put color desaturation on the list for when he gets back to working on the DTM.
> 
> ====
> 
> Thanks again for your posts. They provide excellent feedback and will help us continue to improve the Radiance Pro.


No problem, in my opinion the desaturation setting should be granular enough to actually solve any colours clipping as a result of asking to be too bright especially when you dont have the brightness to display them. So yes I dont agree with that choice or implementation of it so far, it would need to be looked at again IMO with some test scenes to set the boundaries of it, Medium does the most good average results, but sometimes high is needed, but that is far too strong and does really whacky things to colour ramps like making magenta go dark for eg. 

I think choosing to blanket clip colours can be a dangerous presedent, but I guess if you dont mind there are a few shots here and there that clip then thats OK. But I have found many more examples of it than I was expecting to see. You and I both know I use madVR so all I am offering are suggestions at the end of the day since I dont actually own this device, just telling you what I see.

Cheers.


----------



## Javs

Thinking about you ignoring the metadata and why that could be a problem its just ocurred to me that you have no frame delays, right? Maybe this is why you cannot use a proper rolling average for your DTM?

If you have 90 nit shot followed by a hard cut thats 1000 nits in the next scene, do you have enough time to actually see this and adapt to it before the frame gets to the display? I can see this being an issue if the goal is to have zero frame delay, but surely you hold on to at least one frame?

Are you holding to the MaxCLL data because of this delay and you are keeping the idea up your sleeve that there will be eventually content brighter so you will never allow the DTM to adapt too low?

If you threw out MaxCLL you would probably need 1-2 frames delay to process that and adapt before the frames are presented to screen so you wont have a hard clip followed by a brightness ramping to try catch up. I guess thats a clear benefit of holding on to a few frames and looking ahead.


----------



## jrp

Javs:

Not sure how you got that the Pro DTM fails to measure frame peaks and averages. It must and this is what the Pro does. In fact it does this on a region by reason basis. The reported MaxCLL is only used as a maximum the content providers say is not exceeded. The "always use Default" replaces the reported MaxCLL as the "not to exceed" number. That is _all_ it does. It certainly does not mean to use that number for every frame as your post seems to imply. 

The BR2049 has peaks up to about 480 nits (what I recall is reported by the Pro analysis) but the content providers report 184 nits (as I recall) for MaxCLL. BR2049 looks better using the reported MaxCLL (184) then using the calculated MaxCLL (480). This may well be the exception.

I have been pushing to remove source Metadata from consideration for some time for exactly the reasons you mention. We compromised by having a manual override of "always use default max" but this is not ideal either. We have been discussing a "rolling average" for over a year. Your push might be enough to get this change to happen.

=== 

We do appreciate the feedback and as I posted we will revisit desaturation.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> We have been discussing a "rolling average" for over a year. Your push might be enough to get this change to happen.


I am happy with these words. It can be a good improvement opportunity.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> Not sure how you got that the Pro DTM fails to measure frame peaks and averages. It must and this is what the Pro does. In fact it does this on a region by reason basis. The reported MaxCLL is only used as a maximum the content providers say is not exceeded. The "always use Default" replaces the reported MaxCLL as the "not to exceed" number. That is _all_ it does. It certainly does not mean to use that number for every frame as your post seems to imply.
> 
> The BR2049 has peaks up to about 480 nits (what I recall is reported by the Pro analysis) but the content providers report 184 nits (as I recall) for MaxCLL. BR2049 looks better using the reported MaxCLL (184) then using the calculated MaxCLL (480). This may well be the exception.
> 
> I have been pushing to remove source Metadata from consideration for some time for exactly the reasons you mention. We compromised by having a manual override of "always use default max" but this is not ideal either. We have been discussing a "rolling average" for over a year. Your push might be enough to get this change to happen.


Right, but its also not adapting down at all, at least with ongoing usable settings anyway, so you mentioning BR2049 was an important point actually, so I looked at it right away. It seems to be doing compression no matter what, Lets look.

So my version on BR2049 reports 457nits MaxCLL. MaxFALL is 179. Mastering Display 4000 nits.

Here is when I let LRP do its own MaxCLL rendition. Which when I go into the MaxCLL settings is actually like manually setting around 500 nits MaxCLL Override (I checked and the image waveform barely budged so thats confirmed), I guess this is expected behavior, I can raise the waveform height (brighter image) by lowering MaxCLL, obviously not clip it.












Then if I override to 4000 nits (which solved a lot of other content) It gets darker and quite bad so not ideal, I am sure you know this but I am showing others.












Even loweing the MaxCLL override to 200 nits does not brighten the image enough, this is how I know:













This is what MadVR does. This is nit for nit. The frame peak in this shot is 114 nits, MadVR is set to 120 nits display peak, and in knowing this it doesn't even tone map, this is 1:1 nit scaling, so BR2049 with dynamic frame measurement should never be an issue hence why I asked if it actually does it.












What if you tied low ratio setting to this kind of thing? I had low ratio set around 120 nits, which is the display peak of my OLED I am testing on, Kris was saying this was best practice for this setting and so far I agree, but I would have thought that by using this setting if the LRP is detecting content under that number, it would be able to show it 1:1 without any compression, this is apparently not the case. I have Low Ratio on 31 Dpad on 5 and Max Light on 550.

Now back to letting LRP decide MaxCLL (~500 effective):

If I raise Low Ratio to 36 where it stops working (75) then I get this:












If I keep Low Ratio at 33 again which is almost exactly my real peak white but lower D Pad to 1:

This is the most true to 1:1 nit for nit I can get the image, the shadow detail is brighter than on the disk but its the closest, but obviously Dpad 1 looks bad for 90% of content.











So, as you can see why I questioned if you were really measuring frame peaks and adapting to them, I guess I was expecting to see it adapt down as well as adapt up, but I see clipping frequently in certain scenes so that's why I asked. In the reverse for dark scenes I would have thought if you measured low enough you would just show it 1:1.

My thought, since you know the number, by using low ratio, in this case 114 nits. It just so happens to be a crazy coincidence that this scene is also 114 nits, perhaps you could tie your DTM on dim scenes to the low ratio? If you know the shot is 114 and the low ratio is 114 why do any tone mapping whatsoever? I would ignore Dpad and Maxlight at this point and just show it 1:1 as encoded as you have the means to. Or maybe an Auto dpad option being added would serve similar purpose since dpad 1 mostly solves this though not nit for nit it's close.

This would also completely solve any dark scene in any movie ever.

Terminator Dark Fate has a literal 10 minute convo on top of a train at midnight, 1-2 nits the whole thing.










Revenant, 6 nits.











Given the above, I think LRP seriously needs rolling average if it does not in fact have it. Like, urgently. This is a huge uptick in image rendition true to source left on the table. Nearly every film out there would 100% have scenes that are actually below the user display peak, if you tied this to Low Ratio also, you have the ability to truly render it 1:1 as on the disk.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> The third part of the above is audio format changes. These too cause output restarts. Especially for an 18 GHz output board on a 4242, one chip supports both an audio (Output 1), and a video + audio output (Output 2). Restarting the output due to an audio change will restart the video output as well.


There is no way I would want to compromise the original framerate. However, I suspect I'm seeing what you mentioned in this comment. Any recommendations in this case?


----------



## Jue Liang

Javs said:


> Right, but its also not adapting down at all, at least with ongoing usable settings anyway, so you mentioning BR2049 was an important point actually, so I looked at it right away. It seems to be doing compression no matter what, Lets look.
> 
> So my version on BR2049 reports 457nits MaxCLL. MaxFALL is 179. Mastering Display 4000 nits.
> 
> Here is when I let LRP do its own MaxCLL rendition. Which when I go into the MaxCLL settings is actually like manually setting around 500 nits MaxCLL Override (I checked and the image waveform barely budged so thats confirmed), I guess this is expected behavior, I can raise the waveform height (brighter image) by lowering MaxCLL, obviously not clip it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3305955
> 
> 
> 
> Then if I override to 4000 nits (which solved a lot of other content) It gets darker and quite bad so not ideal, I am sure you know this but I am showing others.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3305956
> 
> 
> 
> Even loweing the MaxCLL override to 200 nits does not brighten the image enough, this is how I know:
> 
> 
> View attachment 3305957
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what MadVR does. This is nit for nit. The frame peak in this shot is 114 nits, MadVR is set to 120 nits display peak, and in knowing this it doesn't even tone map, this is 1:1 nit scaling, so BR2049 with dynamic frame measurement should never be an issue hence why I asked if it actually does it.
> 
> View attachment 3305958
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What if you tied low ratio setting to this kind of thing? I had low ratio set around 120 nits, which is the display peak of my OLED I am testing on, Kris was saying this was best practice for this setting and so far I agree, but I would have thought that by using this setting if the LRP is detecting content under that number, it would be able to show it 1:1 without any compression, this is apparently not the case. I have Low Ratio on 31 Dpad on 5 and Max Light on 550.
> 
> Now back to letting LRP decide MaxCLL (~500 effective):
> 
> If I raise Low Ratio to 36 where it stops working (75) then I get this:
> 
> View attachment 3305959
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I keep Low Ratio at 33 again which is almost exactly my real peak white but lower D Pad to 1:
> 
> This is the most true to 1:1 nit for nit I can get the image, the shadow detail is brighter than on the disk but its the closest, but obviously Dpad 1 looks bad for 90% of content.
> 
> View attachment 3305960
> 
> 
> 
> So, as you can see why I questioned if you were really measuring frame peaks and adapting to them, I guess I was expecting to see it adapt down as well as adapt up, but I see clipping frequently in certain scenes so that's why I asked. In the reverse for dark scenes I would have thought if you measured low enough you would just show it 1:1.
> 
> My thought, since you know the number, by using low ratio, in this case 114 nits. It just so happens to be a crazy coincidence that this scene is also 114 nits, perhaps you could tie your DTM on dim scenes to the low ratio? If you know the shot is 114 and the low ratio is 114 why do any tone mapping whatsoever? I would ignore Dpad and Maxlight at this point and just show it 1:1 as encoded as you have the means to. Or maybe an Auto dpad option being added would serve similar purpose since dpad 1 mostly solves this though not nit for nit it's close.
> 
> This would also completely solve any dark scene in any movie ever.
> 
> Terminator Dark Fate has a literal 10 minute convo on top of a train at midnight, 1-2 nits the whole thing.
> 
> View attachment 3305895
> 
> 
> Revenant, 6 nits.
> 
> View attachment 3305896
> 
> 
> 
> Given the above, I think LRP seriously needs rolling average if it does not in fact have it. Like, urgently. This is a huge uptick in image rendition true to source left on the table. Nearly every film out there would 100% have scenes that are actually below the user display peak, if you tied this to Low Ratio also, you have the ability to truly render it 1:1 as on the disk.


This is because LRP always reserves some headroom, AKA the Dpad, to prevent clipping in the coming frames. Lowering Dpad to 1 almost completely removed the reserved headroom in my test but caused clipping and a lot brightness fluctuations. Setting Dpad to 5 could almost avoid clipping and brightness floculations, but I lost a lot highlights popping in those lower nit scenes. For example, I have been always using the Alita scène 1:28:27-1:31:00 for this test.









The highlights in this scene are ~120 nits. When I set my low maxlight to somewhere close to 120nits, setting Dpad to 5 would lower the highlight to ~ half of my actual display peak brightness. Setting the Dpad to 3 would utilize ~70% of my actual display brightness. Higher Dpad didn’t dim the darker part of that scene, so basically it lowers down the rolling off point of EOTF to somewhere depending on the Dpad setting. I really would like to use Dpad 1 to bring back the highlight popping, but it causes too much clipping and brightness fluctuation.

I think the current DTM of LRP is not taking FALL or APL of each frame into account enough, sometime a few highlights in the background can make the EOTF lowered too much. And some very bright high APL scenes (like the ones in MEG and Aquaman) are still too flat, the EOTF is not lowered enough.
I know that zone-based analysis has been implemented according to Jim, but looking more at the APL/FALL, or even better: the brightness distribution of a whole frame, is also important. With that, the DTM won't make a scene with a few scattered highlights too dim, and would lower the EOTF enough to make the bright scenes more contrasty. The two scenarios I mentioned above may have the same CLL, but they should have very different APL or FALL. A scene with scattered highlights has a much lower FALL than the brighter scenes, thus it wouldn't need to be darkened as much as a brighter scene (even with the same CLL). *I was also thinking that using the FALL value of each frame as a “dynamic“ Dynpad* could be a good idea.

I have made such suggestions to Jim last year, I even offered to talk to him over the phone regarding this. But apparently he and Patrick were too busy working on the pipeline precision improvement.

I reported a lot of examples of brightness fluctuations and some clippings back in Oct-Nov 2020 when I started using LRP (I also discussed this issue with you, Matt, when you PM'ed me asking for my impression on LRP VS madVR DTM). Jim and Patrick quickly acted on it, and released three updates (including some beta versions that I tested) on DTM by the end of 2020. That was the last time LRP received a significant improvemennt on DTM. It resolved most of the issues that I reported, I really appreciated their quick and great effort and willingness on improving their product. But I always wanted them to keep improving DTM on scenarios that I mentioned above. Since then they have been busy working on the pipeline precision improvement. Now as they almost finished that work, *I really hope and believe that they will come back working on the DTM soon.*


----------



## jrp

Javs:

I looked at the Revenant (0:20:00) at the scene you show and in the Lumagen demo theater it looks exactly as I believe it should. I see detail in the sons face, tunic, and the tree bark. I tried to take a photo but while it looks excellent in person the photo did not turn out.

I then looked at the Dark Fate conversation on the train top (0:50:05). Again in the Lumagen demo theater it looks exactly as I would expect. I see the level of detail I would expect in Sarah Conner's face, and shirt. It is of course very dark but it looks as I would expect it to.

BR2049 scene you posted (0:14:00) also looks just as I would expect.

This is with the Lumagen Demo Theater completely dark. Any light washes out the black level.

===

I have Max Light = 500, and Low Ratio = 36, giving me a "dark scene Max Light" value of 75 nits. I have Dyn Pad = 4, and DeSat = Mid.

The RS4500 in mid-laser on our 14 foot diagonal Stewart Film Screen Studio Tek 130 output a maximum of 62 nits. Wish it was more, but the 62 nits still looks good. The HDR does look better at High laser which gives us about 100 nits for maximum brightness. I find mid-laser acceptable and the RS4500 fan is not so loud.

The Max Light is applicable in bright scenes. The Low Ratio sets the "Max Light" for dark scenes. So, Max Light really does not affect the scenes you show in your last post, other than it is the reference point for the Low Ratio. So, changing the Max Light can alter the "dark scene max light."

There is a rather complex non-linear function that mixes the Dark-scene and the Bright-scene DTM transfer functions that is a non-linear weighted average of the two. Scenes with a padded MaxCLL below the dark scene Max Light uses only the dark scene transfer function.

If the Dyn Pad padded MaxCLL is at or below the net dark scene max light it will be 1:1. As you noted the Dyn Pad reduces the input to output to somewhat below 1:1 since it sets the scene MaxCLL higher than the first frame would place it without the pad.


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang:

Thanks for your post, and current and previous suggestions.

BTW: Both the MaxCLL and MaxFALL are calculated and used on a zone by zone basis for each frame in the current releases. We can certainly look at weighting MaxFALL more in the calculations.

We do want to revisit DTM. After the pipeline enhancement production release we plan to speed up auto-aspect (this is mostly removing the analog video noise hysteresis, but still a lot of work), and add PiP/PoP (this is a 444X only feature). After these I am hoping to have Patrick focus on DTM for a while.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Jue Liang:
> 
> Thanks for your post, and current and previous suggestions.
> 
> BTW: Both the MaxCLL and MaxFALL are calculated and used on a zone by zone basis for each frame in the current releases. We can certainly look at weighting MaxFALL more in the calculations.
> 
> We do want to revisit DTM. After the pipeline enhancement production release we plan to speed up auto-aspect (this is mostly removing the analog video noise hysteresis, but still a lot of work), and add PiP/PoP (this is a 444X only feature). After these I am hoping to have Patrick focus on DTM for a while.


I look forward to your next updates! 

BTW, I was talking about FALL of each frame, not the maxFALL of the film. I guess you also meant to say FALL. I just wanted to point out that there is a difference between the two terms.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> I looked at the Revenant (0:20:00) at the scene you show and in the Lumagen demo theater it looks exactly as I believe it should. I see detail in the sons face, tunic, and the tree bark. I tried to take a photo but while it looks excellent in person the photo did not turn out.
> 
> I then looked at the Dark Fate conversation on the train top (0:50:05). Again in the Lumagen demo theater it looks exactly as I would expect. I see the level of detail I would expect in Sarah Conner's face, and shirt. It is of course very dark but it looks as I would expect it to.
> 
> BR2049 scene you posted (0:14:00) also looks just as I would expect.
> 
> This is with the Lumagen Demo Theater completely dark. Any light washes out the black level.
> 
> ===
> 
> I have Max Light = 500, and Low Ratio = 36, giving me a "dark scene Max Light" value of 75 nits. I have Dyn Pad = 4, and DeSat = Mid.
> 
> The RS4500 in mid-laser on our 14 foot diagonal Stewart Film Screen Studio Tek 130 output a maximum of 62 nits. Wish it was more, but the 62 nits still looks good. The HDR does look better at High laser which gives us about 100 nits for maximum brightness. I find mid-laser acceptable and the RS4500 fan is not so loud.
> 
> The Max Light is applicable in bright scenes. The Low Ratio sets the "Max Light" for dark scenes. So, Max Light really does not affect the scenes you show in your last post, other than it is the reference point for the Low Ratio. So, changing the Max Light can alter the "dark scene max light."
> 
> There is a rather complex non-linear function that mixes the Dark-scene and the Bright-scene DTM transfer functions that is a non-linear weighted average of the two. Scenes with a padded MaxCLL below the dark scene Max Light uses only the dark scene transfer function.
> 
> If the Dyn Pad padded MaxCLL is at or below the net dark scene max light it will be 1:1. As you noted the Dyn Pad reduces the input to output to somewhat below 1:1 since it sets the scene MaxCLL higher than the first frame would place it without the pad.


Thanks,

So I had a look what LRP was doing on the Revenant and Terminator. And they are indeed bright enough I guess, but its not consistent between them despite one being 1-2 nits and the other around 7. 

The Revenant is still darker than reference by a little bit. Which if I reduce Max Light down from 550 will fix. So thats down to settings, but IMO it would be nice if it was more 1:1 without requiring user intervention to achieve.

LRP










MadVR











Terminator is actually brighter than reference, at least when using 33-5-550 If I raise to 33-5-800 then its about right 1:1. But then the Revenant becomes even darker so thats a bit tough, though to be honest they are both bright enough to watch I suppose.

LRP




















Alita though is leaving quite a bit of dynamic range on the table. This is a 733nit MaxCLL film. 1000nit Master. This shot is 130-140 source nits. it doesnt need very much tone mapping being close to 1:1 for my brightness, So putting Low Ratio on 33 to get 114 for a 120 nits monitor but I can see this scene is only rendering at around ~70-75 nits max at 2.2 gamma. Its just past the 75% IRE mark.

LRP










MadVR - using all the dynamic range available.










LRP










MadVR










LRP











MadVR










If the goal is to get it looking fine in your theatre that's great, I just think with the darker stuff especially nits near the users actual peak, you have a unique opportunity during the course of a film to show whats actually 1:1 encoded on the disk, its the one time you dont have to guess.

With things like Alita and pretty much any scene with similar brightness, and I am thinking every film would have at the very least 5-10 scenes with levels as such, there is a lot of 'free' POP left on the table which is technically directors intent.


----------



## woofer

That's quite a pronounced difference with the "Alita" shots !


----------



## Javs

Here is one Paul just asked me to check.

The Mountain Between Us. This one does not report MaxCLL but it has mastering monitor reported 1000 nits.

This shot is 147 nits. So, again, ideally it would be barely starting to tone map and compress highlights. You should be able to be quite close to 1:1 on a 120 nits monitor.

This is massive headroom left on the table Jim...

LRP Low Ratio 36 (75 effective?) / 5 / 550. 

This is about 60% IRE, only ~40 nits!










LRP Low Ratio 36 / 1 / 200. Pretty extreme settings to try get the dynamic range back.










MadVR - Uses 100% of the dynamic range.


----------



## EVH78

Javs said:


> MadVR - Uses 100% of the dynamic range.
> 
> View attachment 3306049


Wow, that's certainly a night and day difference! MadVR Picture has so much more punch. All of this certainly explains why I am still constantly fiddling with my DTM settings to this very day! I like the idea of an Auto D-pad setting and ignoring the metadata as a starting point. 
If there is so much headroom available it should be accessible


----------



## Clark Burk

For myself the most important use of the Lumagen is tone mapping and upscaling. If modifications to the tone mapping can bring us a bit closer to reference and gain a bit more pop I’m all for it. I think this at least for me is more important than quicker aspect ratio changes and PIP/POP. I kind of think a few others might agree that getting the tone mapping even better than it currently is if possible would be a big plus and definitely of prime importance.


----------



## Javs

I was going to ask the users in this thread what their thoughts were on all that. 

I'm going to try stop posting any madvr comparisons here as I am mindful that Jim won't like it every time I do, so going forward I'll probably only post them in the processor comparison thread. I just felt I had to share the ones I did because it's highlighting some huge differences which are not even really stylistic in my opinion almost fundamental in nature. In that respect I wonder what other users think of it? 

Moreso I couldn't help but keep wondering if you guys had the ability to use the full dynamic range of light available to you in every shot, or, the nits being asked from the disk then I am fairly confident you would all notice a massive increase in the image dynamism.

The dynamic range thing certainly doesn't affect every shot that contain very bright elements it's just when its close to your actual frame peak and below. But that would honestly happen certainly every film more than once. 

Now that I know this is happening I am going to actually look for it in a lot of test films just completely normal movies. I don't know if some of it is because nobody has stuck a waveform on this yet or not to notice that it's happening or it's an actual conscious decision.



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Clark Burk

I guess the old saying that you don't know what you're missing until you see what you're missing would be appropriate.


----------



## alv

Clark Burk said:


> For myself the most important use of the Lumagen is tone mapping and upscaling


Agree.


----------



## Geof

Clark Burk said:


> For myself the most important use of the Lumagen is tone mapping and upscaling. If modifications to the tone mapping can bring us a bit closer to reference and gain a bit more pop I’m all for it. I think this at least for me is more important than quicker aspect ratio changes and PIP/POP. I kind of think a few others might agree that getting the tone mapping even better than it currently is if possible would be a big plus and definitely of prime importance.


FWIW, I would also rank DTM work above aspect ratio or PIP work.
DTM would affect every LRP user. 
Auto Aspect ratio speed changes and PIP won't affect me - or many other users whereas DTM improvements would affect every user.


----------



## EVH78

DTM should be the top priority.

I certainly do not mind Patrick finishing the Auto Aspect changes for now. 

PIP is not urgent to me even though I have a 444X unit.


----------



## Michael-S

EVH78 said:


> DTM should be the top priority.
> 
> I certainly do not mind Patrick finishing the Auto Aspect changes for now.
> 
> PIP is not urgent to me even though I have a 444X unit.





Clark Burk said:


> For myself the most important use of the Lumagen is tone mapping and upscaling. If modifications to the tone mapping can bring us a bit closer to reference and gain a bit more pop I’m all for it. I think this at least for me is more important than quicker aspect ratio changes and PIP/POP. I kind of think a few others might agree that getting the tone mapping even better than it currently is if possible would be a big plus and definitely of prime importance.





Geof said:


> FWIW, I would also rank DTM work above aspect ratio or PIP work.
> DTM would affect every LRP user.
> Auto Aspect ratio speed changes and PIP won't affect me - or many other users whereas DTM improvements would affect every user.


I would like to add my voice to those who assign higher priority to DTM improvements over faster Auto Aspect detection and PIP/POP.


----------



## DougAP

Another vote from me for DTM being of primary importance.


----------



## fatherom

Add me to the "improvements to DTM" list.


----------



## Ian_Currie

I'm very happy to see this discussion on DTM. Javs, you are doing a very good thing here. I am a user of both madVR and the Lumagen and can toggle between the two DTM solutions on the very easily (on the fly). On a lot of content the differences are negligible, but on some the difference is huge. On the content in question I perceive the Lumagen to be dim with low contrast, presenting a flat picture and I have found that none of the available adjustable parameters remedy it (whereas madVR looks great in just about every respect). I should mention that I don't like overly bright images (I run a 14 foot wide scope screen on low laser).

I have been meaning to do some digging into why this is and report it to Jim privately but perhaps now I don't need to.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Any picture performance first over functionality IMO. Any processing improvements & Scaling deinterlacing or DTM. So it's a yes to the DTM from me.


----------



## edthomp

Better DTM here as well. Will not use auto aspect or PIP at all.


----------



## docrog

I can't imagine that any kind of polling makes sense, since it's likely that Jim knows the results would likely be 100% in favor of re-directing Patrick's effort to further improving DTM (if that's able to be accomplished given LRP's framework) versus other projects currently under consideration.


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Right, but its also not adapting down at all, at least with ongoing usable settings anyway, so you mentioning BR2049 was an important point actually, so I looked at it right away. It seems to be doing compression no matter what, Lets look.
> 
> So my version on BR2049 reports 457nits MaxCLL. MaxFALL is 179. Mastering Display 4000 nits.
> 
> Here is when I let LRP do its own MaxCLL rendition. Which when I go into the MaxCLL settings is actually like manually setting around 500 nits MaxCLL Override (I checked and the image waveform barely budged so thats confirmed), I guess this is expected behavior, I can raise the waveform height (brighter image) by lowering MaxCLL, obviously not clip it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3305955
> 
> 
> 
> Then if I override to 4000 nits (which solved a lot of other content) It gets darker and quite bad so not ideal, I am sure you know this but I am showing others.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3305956
> 
> 
> 
> Even loweing the MaxCLL override to 200 nits does not brighten the image enough, this is how I know:
> 
> 
> View attachment 3305957
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what MadVR does. This is nit for nit. The frame peak in this shot is 114 nits, MadVR is set to 120 nits display peak, and in knowing this it doesn't even tone map, this is 1:1 nit scaling, so BR2049 with dynamic frame measurement should never be an issue hence why I asked if it actually does it.
> 
> View attachment 3305958
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What if you tied low ratio setting to this kind of thing? I had low ratio set around 120 nits, which is the display peak of my OLED I am testing on, Kris was saying this was best practice for this setting and so far I agree, but I would have thought that by using this setting if the LRP is detecting content under that number, it would be able to show it 1:1 without any compression, this is apparently not the case. I have Low Ratio on 31 Dpad on 5 and Max Light on 550.
> 
> Now back to letting LRP decide MaxCLL (~500 effective):
> 
> If I raise Low Ratio to 36 where it stops working (75) then I get this:
> 
> View attachment 3305959
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I keep Low Ratio at 33 again which is almost exactly my real peak white but lower D Pad to 1:
> 
> This is the most true to 1:1 nit for nit I can get the image, the shadow detail is brighter than on the disk but its the closest, but obviously Dpad 1 looks bad for 90% of content.
> 
> View attachment 3305960
> 
> 
> 
> So, as you can see why I questioned if you were really measuring frame peaks and adapting to them, I guess I was expecting to see it adapt down as well as adapt up, but I see clipping frequently in certain scenes so that's why I asked. In the reverse for dark scenes I would have thought if you measured low enough you would just show it 1:1.
> 
> My thought, since you know the number, by using low ratio, in this case 114 nits. It just so happens to be a crazy coincidence that this scene is also 114 nits, perhaps you could tie your DTM on dim scenes to the low ratio? If you know the shot is 114 and the low ratio is 114 why do any tone mapping whatsoever? I would ignore Dpad and Maxlight at this point and just show it 1:1 as encoded as you have the means to. Or maybe an Auto dpad option being added would serve similar purpose since dpad 1 mostly solves this though not nit for nit it's close.
> 
> This would also completely solve any dark scene in any movie ever.
> 
> Terminator Dark Fate has a literal 10 minute convo on top of a train at midnight, 1-2 nits the whole thing.
> 
> View attachment 3305895
> 
> 
> Revenant, 6 nits.
> 
> View attachment 3305896
> 
> 
> 
> Given the above, I think LRP seriously needs rolling average if it does not in fact have it. Like, urgently. This is a huge uptick in image rendition true to source left on the table. Nearly every film out there would 100% have scenes that are actually below the user display peak, if you tied this to Low Ratio also, you have the ability to truly render it 1:1 as on the disk.


This is where DPAD becomes a big deal. It essentially creates padding on the off chance that the next frame has a bright object to reduce the chance of clipping. You use a DPAD of 5, so that adds a lot of pad. I typically use a 3, which helps with scenes like this, but there will still be a pad. I've had this discussion MANY times with Lumagen (pad being a bit more than it should be). DPAD 1 will work best with super low nit stuff, but as you already know, it isn't ideal for brighter stuff. I find with 3 I don't have as much of an issue with scenes like this and it is extremely rare that I have any type of clipping artifact with brighter content.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> This is where DPAD becomes a big deal. It essentially creates padding on the off chance that the next frame has a bright object to reduce the chance of clipping. You use a DPAD of 5, so that adds a lot of pad. I typically use a 3, which helps with scenes like this, but there will still be a pad. I've had this discussion MANY times with Lumagen (pad being a bit more than it should be). DPAD 1 will work best with super low nit stuff, but as you already know, it isn't ideal for brighter stuff. I find with 3 I don't have as much of an issue with scenes like this and it is extremely rare that I have any type of clipping artifact with brighter content.


Dpad is certainly not doing enough though, it only works on scenes where the waveform tips past the halfway point ive found, its not able to bring back a lot of the dynamic range lost in a lot of shots for eg the 147 nit mountain shot was impossible to bring back to reference. It also does nothing in a lot of the Skyfall shots that fall under or near frame peak of 120.

Right, so Lumagen cant/isnt looking ahead at least one frame? That sounds like a bit of a shame that this is what you have to do to get around that potential of the next frame clipping.


----------



## Nima

Also more interested in DTM perfection prior to anything else.


----------



## Vinturbo

For me DTM has the highest priority. 
it is the most important and valuable function of the Radiance.


----------



## bisocri

secondo me il "DTM" è la funzione più importante!


----------



## Javs

Well, according to Jon Thompson in the other thread, I have clearly setup my Lumagen wrong and my results are all false.....

Take that as you will, but I am quite sure that my data is completely accurate and fair and repeatable by anyone. 

If you want to shut me down and hide behind a 300k laser projector and 200k tektronix being the only way to test Lumagen that's fine. you shoudl not have to adjust Dpad on a scene by scene basis to get all the dynamic range possible from your image. Sure you could fix a fair bit with Dpad1, not all of it, but I can then show you a dozen or more scenes that will be clipped all to hell the very next shot.


----------



## docrog

@Javs, AFAIK, you've referenced Dpad 1/3/5, so why not try Dpad2 as a compromise if/until a dynamic rolling average is available via future firmware?


----------



## Javs

docrog said:


> @Javs, AFAIK, you've referenced Dpad 1/3/5, so why not try Dpad2 as a compromise if/until a dynamic rolling average is available via future firmware?


Dpad does not fix every scene, on some shots I've posted it doesn't even move the image, and when it does, what works for one, will only serve to fall apart on other test material. 

That's what I do, I find a setting then I test it until it breaks. Right now there is no setting that works on all content without some kind of compromise, be it colour clipping, dynamic range left on table etc. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## bjorg

Javs said:


> Well, according to Jon Thompson in the other thread, I have clearly setup my Lumagen wrong and my results are all false.....
> 
> Take that as you will, but I am quite sure that my data is completely accurate and fair and repeatable by anyone.
> 
> If you want to shut me down and hide behind a 300k laser projector and 200k tektronix being the only way to test Lumagen that's fine. you shoudl not have to adjust Dpad on a scene by scene basis to get all the dynamic range possible from your image. Sure you could fix a fair bit with Dpad1, not all of it, but I can then show you a dozen or more scenes that will be clipped all to hell the very next shot.


If you got it wrong, with your level of expertise, odds are most of us got it wrong too. That said, it’s a rather big “if” for me!

I find your posts invaluable and really appreciate you digging into it. Jim and Patrick will ultimately decide what they find important, but I‘ confident we’re all going to be very appreciative of the future improvements delivered based on your analysis.


----------



## Grifo

and I want to say that every improvement concerning dynamic tone mapping deserves an absolute priority.
Ever.
Now, of course thanks to the remarkable contribution from Jaws, we cannot loose this opportunity.
To get the best visual performance is the first reason I’ ve choosed Lumagen


----------



## DigitalAV

As a 444X owner I demand PiP/PoP before anything else OR else!

Teasing of course, my priority vote:

1. DTM subtitle/cc masking zones
2. DTM algos
3. Auto-aspect quickening 
4. PoP
5. PiP


----------



## jrp

Javs:

I do not see issues you are trying to show viewing the scenes in the Lumagen theater.

There is a fundamental issue I see in your plots. When the Pro clips, it will clip at its max output, which per video standards is code 940 (in 10-bit speak). I just had Patrick confirm this digitally to make sure there is not a bug. If the Pro is clipping the output level is 940 using DTM.

Your plots showing the clip point so low are incorrect. That you show the clip point in the Pro output is much lower than the clip point in the other plot indicates a setup issue for your Pro, or your analysis program is not using 940 as the maximum level, as it must for the Radiance Pro output. In any case there is something wrong in the setup that needs to be corrected before any comparisons can be done.


----------



## Clark Burk

Thanks Jim. I’ll admit I further my video education the more I read this thread. I had to look up Code 940 and it was interesting. 









Full Levels and Video Levels Explained! - The Post Process


Full levels and video levels for professionals explained! All you need to know about the difference between these two concepts for post production.




www.thepostprocess.com





If I’m getting it correct it’s saying that differences can arise in moving between video levels and full data levels when signals are processed and scaled. It kind of went way over my head but if you get a chance and can explain it in easier to decipher consumer jargon I’d appreciate it.


----------



## woofer

Kris Deering said:


> This is where DPAD becomes a big deal. It essentially creates padding on the off chance that the next frame has a bright object to reduce the chance of clipping. You use a DPAD of 5, so that adds a lot of pad. I typically use a 3, which helps with scenes like this, but there will still be a pad. I've had this discussion MANY times with Lumagen (pad being a bit more than it should be). DPAD 1 will work best with super low nit stuff, but as you already know, it isn't ideal for brighter stuff. I find with 3 I don't have as much of an issue with scenes like this and it is extremely rare that I have any type of clipping artifact with brighter content.


Kris, "The Mountain Between Us" is one title ( of a few ) that i never have been able to get to look "correct" on my Lumagen in regards to madVR ...no amount of tweaking settings renders it as i see it with madVR ...and in mu opinion correctly...

This is why i was curious to see what @Javs found with it..


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

In the light of the extensive tests carried out by Javs I believe that Jim and Patrick's improvement of the DTM is of the utmost importance and should enjoy absolute priority over any other function of the LRP


----------



## Kris Deering

woofer said:


> Kris, "The Mountain Between Us" is one title ( of a few ) that i never have been able to get to look "correct" on my Lumagen in regards to madVR ...no amount of tweaking settings renders it as i see it with madVR ...and in mu opinion correctly...
> 
> This is why i was curious to see what @Javs found with it..


I don't know if I have that title, I will look though and see what I see in my setup. Did you ever report issues with this title to Lumagen?


----------



## woofer

Kris Deering said:


> I don't know if I have that title, I will look though and see what I see in my setup. Did you ever report issues with this title to Lumagen?


Yes...Its one of the few titles i just could never get correct.....the very bright snow scenes almost give the impression of an "overcast" day versus a bright clear sunny day to which they are.. I can improve the scene , BUT the settings will then no longer apply to 99% of other content..


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> I do not see issues you are trying to show viewing the scenes in the Lumagen theater.
> 
> There is a fundamental issue I see in your plots. When the Pro clips, it will clip at its max output, which per video standards is code 940 (in 10-bit speak). I just had Patrick confirm this digitally to make sure there is not a bug. If the Pro is clipping the output level is 940 using DTM.
> 
> Your plots showing the clip point so low are incorrect. That you show the clip point in the Pro output is much lower than the clip point in the other plot indicates a setup issue for your Pro, or your analysis program is not using 940 as the maximum level, as it must for the Radiance Pro output. In any case there is something wrong in the setup that needs to be corrected before any comparisons can be done.


But Jim, it's not clipping so low. All you have to do is scroll up to see I've already posted so many shots...

Look at the first shot here. All the way to 940. 









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Dithering Question-- Could someone help with laying out the decision parameters to set the LRP dithering control? Should it be used and if so is there a preferred setting for DVD/BD and/or 4K? Does it also vary for content (or sink device) regardless of format (bit depth)? Also, with respect...




www.avsforum.com





I am clearly the first person to put lumagen on video scopes. I've just shown a lot of content where dynamic range is seriously lacking. Also if you really study the images, you will see a few where the scopes between lumagen and madvr are actually about the same, and in those shots they look near identical. 

I'm always open to being wrong, but in this case the scopes are right.


Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## woofer

@Kris Deering Death on the Nile.....is another..


----------



## Javs

Gianluca Vignini said:


> In the light of the extensive tests carried out by Javs I believe that Jim and Patrick's improvement of the DTM is of the utmost importance and should enjoy absolute priority over any other function of the LRP


They don't have to agree with my findings though. There is actually no law or set standard for this. But that's why I think asking people here what they make of it is a good thing. For eg in the other thread the idea that you don't want to use the full dynamic range in every shot is being argued, but my feeling is HDR is encoded with absolute light values in mind. 

If the disk asks for 200 to 400 nits and you have an 80 nits projector, should you tone map that shot down to fill your available dynamic range? I vote yes, especially with things in place to adapt over time to get rid of any brightness fluctuations in the scene, or instantly adapt to a scene cut to a new shot, this takes a lot of work to do though so I am not sure on how much for this they may have already done. 

Or if the metadata says the brightest pixel in the film is 1000 nits do you pad the whole image down with reserves waiting for when that pixel shows up to maintain a ratio of range so it's a bit of a wow moment? If so, then the problem is if you have a light starved projector you could be waiting a long time for this event to happen perhaps 90% of the film, and when it does it may only be a few stray pixels and mostly invisible anyway, I've certainly seen both scenarios and why I don't think trusting maxcll at all is good.

If you tone mapped to fill your dynamic range if the scene asks for more nits than you are capable of, but if there are scenes under your peak white say, 50 nits, then stay true to that and don't go trying to expand the dynamic range when that's not the intent, this also by definition keeps the ratio of the director intended grading choices mostly. You would need to use a rolling average for this, instead of listening to the reported maxcll, have lumagen build a rolling maxcll with a small buffer and a smart algorithm to adapt during scenes that do not cause any brightness fluctuations. If there is a hard cut to a new scene, detect it and immediately adapt to it before the frame is presented to screen.

Anyway it's not my place to tell them they have to do it, as it's technically two ways to skin a cat. I'm just pointing out where there is apparently a really large difference between the two major dtm solutions. It's definitely two trains of thought.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

Here is another shot I posted the other day showing the scopes are definitely correct. Bottom left scope clips al the way up to 940.

I wish people would actually look at this stuff before saying I did something wrong. Its all there.


----------



## Bubblehead00

Count me in the DTM improvements over PiP crowd. DTM is the main reason I got a Lumagen, together with the easy auto-scaling for a 2.4 screen.


----------



## MOberhardt

Bubblehead00 said:


> Count me in the DTM improvements over PiP crowd. DTM is the main reason I got a Lumagen, together with the easy auto-scaling for a 2.4 screen.


Same. DTM was why I got one. Zero interest in PIP, POP or other trinkets.


----------



## Gianluca Vignini

Javs said:


> ......
> 
> Anyway it's not my place to tell them they have to do it, as it's technically two ways to skin a cat. I'm just pointing out where there is apparently a really large difference between the two major dtm solutions. It's definitely two trains of thought.


Javs, I believe first and foremost that you are helping many of us to better understand the basic concepts of the DTM and for that we have you to thank.

We also feel that you, like us, believe in the potential of the Lumagen Radiance Pro and the skill of Jim and Patrick who have been pioneering video processors since the early 2000s. I am more than sure that they will not fail to improve the DTM also based on your comparative tests and suggestions so that the Radiance can be the best video tool in all aspects!

Thanks again.


----------



## fatherom

Javs said:


> Here is another shot I posted the other day showing the scopes are definitely correct. Bottom left scope clips al the way up to 940.
> 
> I wish people would actually look at this stuff before saying I did something wrong. Its all there.
> 
> View attachment 3306319


I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying you’re doing anything wrong. This research is invaluable. 

Ignore that person from the other thread. They’re just trying to pick a fight.


----------



## Javs

fatherom said:


> I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying you’re doing anything wrong. This research is invaluable.
> 
> Ignore that person from the other thread. They’re just trying to pick a fight.


Thank you,

Unfortunately that person is Lumagens most technical consultant in the post production industry and just started off out of line and on the back foot, anyway, I've just had long chats with Kris, he and Pat are seeing what I am seeing it seems. So we will take it from there. I have forwarded all test material to them for very quick access to the exact frames I am looking at. The very same files.


----------



## Clark Burk

Javs appreciate all the hard work put in trying to help make the LRP better. Providing them with the test material you used is a good move. Hopefully they will see what you’re seeing and figure out a way to make our LRPs better.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Javs said:


> Thank you,
> 
> Unfortunately that person is Lumagens most technical consultant in the post production industry and just started off out of line and on the back foot, anyway, I've just had long chats with Kris, he and Pat are seeing what I am seeing it seems. So we will take it from there. I have forwarded all test material to them for very quick access to the exact frames I am looking at. The very same files.


Is the gentleman in question actually a technion ?. He's a movie producer consultant with access to expensive equipment. No doubt he has some know-how and knowledge. And probably able to consult with the best of them.


----------



## Javs

Chicagobear1 said:


> Is the gentleman in question actually a technion ?. He's a movie producer consultant with access to expensive equipment. No doubt he has some know-how and knowledge. And probably able to consult with the best of them.


Its really not worth talking about any longer. I dont know him, and he certainly doesnt know me.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Javs said:


> Its really not worth talking about any longer. I dont know him, and he certainly doesnt know me.


Agreed


----------



## jrp

Javs:

I had thought the Alita scene was DTM clipped. I asked Pat to check this but it took a long time to download to his Strato. By the time he called to say it was not the DTM clipping that I thought it was, I was with my grandson at the zoo and could not edit my post. You are correct that the scene is not DTM clipping, and DTM appears to be padding more than needed with Dyn Pad = 3.

For the The Mountain Between Us scene the Dyn Pad is padding way too much. It is more than doubling the MaxCLL of the first frame that is used to set the scene transfer function with Dyn Pad = 3. This is likely something Patrick can improve once he is back on DTM.

===

We have had looking into desaturation and how to improve Dyn Pad on our to do list for over a year, but have been occupied with the pipeline enhancements. I believe the next Beta will put the finishing touches on the pipeline enhancements. Currently Patrick is finishing adding the new source aspects. Then he will work on a "digital content" version of auto aspect (versus current version that deals with analog video noise) so it can be faster. Then, unfortunately for the five or so people who want PiP/PoP, I think it is clear the vast majority want us back on DTM. So, looks like DTM wins over PiP/PoP once again. I am sure I will hear from the few that do not like this change in priority.

We appreciate you posting the image profiling. The plots show what we have seen in a few corner cases in a much more quantitative way than us just viewing content.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I for one just welcome all the work done by everyone to improve these products.

I have one of the 4444 models and I have no interest in PIP/POP.

DTM is something used by virtually every lumagen user I suspect and I believe it should be a higher priority.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> I had thought the Alita scene was DTM clipped. I asked Pat to check this but it took a long time to download to his Strato. By the time he called to say it was not the DTM clipping that I thought it was, I was with my grandson at the zoo and could not edit my post. You are correct that the scene is not DTM clipping, and DTM appears to be padding more than needed with Dyn Pad = 3.
> 
> For the The Mountain Between Us scene the Dyn Pad is padding way too much. It is more than doubling the MaxCLL of the first frame that is used to set the scene transfer function with Dyn Pad = 3. This is likely something Patrick can improve once he is back on DTM.
> 
> ===
> 
> We have had looking into desaturation and how to improve Dyn Pad on our to do list for over a year, but have been occupied with the pipeline enhancements. I believe the next Beta will put the finishing touches on the pipeline enhancements. Currently Patrick is finishing adding the new source aspects. Then he will work on a "digital content" version of auto aspect (versus current version that deals with analog video noise) so it can be faster. Then, unfortunately for the five or so people who want PiP/PoP, I think it is clear the vast majority want us back on DTM. So, looks like DTM wins over PiP/PoP once again. I am sure I will hear from the few that do not like this change in priority.
> 
> We appreciate you posting the image profiling. The plots show what we have seen in a few corner cases in a much more quantitative way than us just viewing content.


I've shared all the key shots as test files to Kris which he will then forward to Pat if he hasn't already. He can look at those on his oppo. Very simple mkv single images 1 per second broken down into the movie files. They have identical metadata etc as the films they came from. Simple frame extractions. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> I've shared all the key shots as test files to Kris which he will then forward to Pat if he hasn't already. He can look at those on his oppo. Very simple mkv single images 1 per second broken down into the movie files. They have identical metadata etc as the films they came from. Simple frame extractions.


Kris forwarded these on to Patrick and they will be helpful in the work for DTM improvements.

Thanks for sending the files.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Kris forwarded these on to Patrick and they will be helpful in the work for DTM improvements.
> 
> Thanks for sending the files.


No worries


Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Nima

Thank you, so much for this Javs and thank you Kris and Lumagen Team for listening. Now I am awaiting eagerly this DTM implementations.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> I think it is clear the vast majority want us back on DTM. So, looks like DTM wins over PiP/PoP once again. I am sure I will hear from the few that do not like this change in priority.


100% support for the improvement of the DTM algorithm.


----------



## A7mad78

Improve DTM will be always the top priority for most of us 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AmigoHD

+1 for DTM


----------



## matty1137

A7mad78 said:


> Improve DTM will be always the top priority for most of us
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Different strokes for different folks….

I purchased my Lumagen primarily for its aspect ratio control and auto aspect functionality. The DTM is a great feature, no doubt.


----------



## EVH78

matty1137 said:


> I purchased my Lumagen primarily for its aspect ratio control and auto aspect functionality. The DTM is a great feature, no doubt.


Did you read Jim's post? They will finish auto aspect first and THEN return to DTM (instead of PIP).


----------



## matty1137

EVH78 said:


> Did you read Jim's post? They will finish auto aspect first and THEN return to DTM (instead of PIP).


Yes, I did.  I wasn’t voting or trying to sway anyone away from the importance of DTM. I just wanted others to know aspect ratio control is still extremely important to some of us


----------



## bearcat2002

This is how most of us work on here...we read something and we better do it. Simple variable controlled fan from acinfinity brings my U2 LRP chip temp from 83 degrees to 60 easily. Regardless if it really makes a difference, it was something for me to do.


----------



## Mike_WI

bearcat2002 said:


> This is how most of us work on here...we read something and we better do it. Simple variable controlled fan from acinfinity brings my U2 LRP chip temp from 83 degrees to 60 easily. Regardless if it really makes a difference, it was something for me to do.
> 
> View attachment 3306673


Nice.
I can't tell from pic. How is it held in place?
Are you setting at a fixed rate or temperature sensor?


----------



## Naiera

How noisy is that AC Infinity fan? The supposedly 18 dB one I got first from Noctua seems to be almost 10 dB more than that.

I actually have three almost completely inaudible fans running behind my LRP now. They manage to keep the internal fan from spinning up too much of the time, but chip temps in the 60s with 4K material remains a pipe dream  They obviously don't move as much air, and I need something that moves more air but is at least a couple of dessy bells less noisy than the aforementioned Noctua.


----------



## bearcat2002

Mike_WI said:


> Nice.
> I can't tell from pic. How is it held in place?
> Are you setting at a fixed rate or temperature sensor?


It's held in place with Gorilla double sided tape. I didn't want to invade the actual unit so I have it on a fixed rate via a rotary controller. The axial fan can get loud once you go past half way. I'm between Low and Medium and it's ver quiet. It's a nice inexpensive upgrade.


----------



## Mike_WI

bearcat2002 said:


> It's held in place with Gorilla double sided tape. I didn't want to invade the actual unit so I have it on a fixed rate via a rotary controller. The axial fan can get loud once you go past half way. I'm between Low and Medium and it's ver quiet. It's a nice inexpensive upgrade.


Thanks. I'll look at my temps a little and consider that. I have AC infinity fans for other applications around the house.


----------



## LDG

bearcat2002 said:


> It's held in place with Gorilla double sided tape. I didn't want to invade the actual unit so I have it on a fixed rate via a rotary controller. The axial fan can get loud once you go past half way. I'm between Low and Medium and it's ver quiet. It's a nice inexpensive upgrade.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> I had thought the Alita scene was DTM clipped. I asked Pat to check this but it took a long time to download to his Strato. By the time he called to say it was not the DTM clipping that I thought it was, I was with my grandson at the zoo and could not edit my post. You are correct that the scene is not DTM clipping...


One thing I am curious of though, 

Ive not heard the term DTM clipped before, what is that exactly? I never said DTM Clipped.


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> One thing I am curious of though,
> 
> I've not heard the term DTM clipped before, what is that exactly? I never said DTM Clipped.


"Clamped" might be a better word and likely the word you would use. I use clip and clamp interchangeably. I get this from "audio clipping" as it is the same limiting of the maximum output.

The following you know, but for others:

As video goes above the maximum light output of the projector/TV, the DTM rolls off the response so that the maximum output is "clamped to 1.0" which in this case is code value 940 in 10-bit speak. However, on any given day I might also say "clipped to 1.0" for this case.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> "Clamped" might be a better word and likely the word you would use. I use clip and clamp interchangeably. I get this from "audio clipping" as it is the same limiting of the maximum output.
> 
> The following you know, but for others:
> 
> As video goes above the maximum light output of the projector/TV, the DTM rolls off the response so that the maximum output is "clamped to 1.0" which in this case is code value 940 in 10-bit speak. However, on any given day I might also say "clipped to 1.0" for this case.


Ah ok, well clipping to me means losing information due to a solid 'wall' that you cannot go past. 

In this case the info is there so I guess clamped is the word.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Jue Liang

Javs said:


> Ah ok, well clipping to me means losing information due to a solid 'wall' that you cannot go past.
> 
> In this case the info is there so I guess clamped is the word.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


I thought the word should be D-padded using Lumagen’s terminology
sorry I am not a native English speaker, don’t know if that’s a correct word or not.


----------



## Javs

Jue Liang said:


> I thought the word should be D-padded using Lumagen’s terminology
> sorry I am not a native English speaker, don’t know if that’s a correct word or not.


Yeah I agree with that too. Padded down. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## gattorodolfo

I also confirm, the DTM is the real reason that makes us spend a lot of money to add the radiance pro processor to our projector. So long live the DTM, everything else remains in the background


----------



## MOberhardt

Yeah, I know I'm old and cranky but I'm trying to be polite here. The very idea that someone who invests in a rp gives a xxxx about image quality for pip and pop makes my blood boil. I'm not s.

Or is there's someone here who an given explanation of why one microsecond should be expended on this?

please, help me understand. I'm at an utter loss.


----------



## Clark Burk

What’s amazing is all the things the LRP does and does very good. Some even may think it makes toast but a lot of thought has gone into keeping it from getting that hot . I do think the most important task most ask for though is good tone mapping, even those of us who desire PIP/POP. As good as it is if we can tweak a bit more from it then I’m all for it and thank you Javs for showing us a few things that can still be improved.


----------



## dlinsley

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah, I know I'm old and cranky but I'm trying to be polite here. The very idea that someone who invests in a rp gives a xxxx about image quality for pip and pop makes my blood boil. I'm not s.
> 
> Or is there's someone here who an given explanation of why one microsecond should be expended on this?
> 
> please, help me understand. I'm at an utter loss.


Three days ago was anyone complaining about DTM and that it needed to be improved? PiP/PoP is still an advertised feature and was back in 2015 when I upgraded to the Pro from the XD where I did use it. Not often, but I would still like it back. In 2015, DTM and even its predecessor IM were unheard of and so it has been excellent that Lumagen have provided those free of charge to the earlier buyers (the XD had a paid upgrade to 3D since it was an unknown when the XD came out). I'm happy for DTM to be improved first, but PiP/PoP finally needs to make an appearance.


----------



## SJHT

DTM was never originally advertised. Maybe they should have a one time firmware that provides PIP/POP, but removes DTM. Let’s see how many folks load that up.


----------



## Jue Liang

dlinsley said:


> Three days ago was anyone complaining about DTM and that it needed to be improved?


I did. Not here, but directly to Lumagen.

In the other thread people also asked why no one found the problems with Lumagen’s DTM before. Well, I think that’s because some of us chose to report problems through the Lumagen support. I have always been submitting problems and suggestions to Lumagen through emails, always wanted the DTM to be improved. Basically the same type of observation as JAVS found.
I mentioned that in the following post:








New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Javs: Not sure how you got that the Pro DTM fails to measure frame peaks and averages. It must and this is what the Pro does. In fact it does this on a region by reason basis. The reported MaxCLL is only used as a maximum the content providers say is not exceeded. The "always use Default"...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## docrog

dlinsley said:


> Three days ago was anyone complaining about DTM and that it needed to be improved? PiP/PoP is still an advertised feature and was back in 2015 when I upgraded to the Pro from the XD where I did use it. Not often, but I would still like it back. In 2015, DTM and even its predecessor IM were unheard of and so it has been excellent that Lumagen have provided those free of charge to the earlier buyers (the XD had a paid upgrade to 3D since it was an unknown when the XD came out). I'm happy for DTM to be improved first, but PiP/PoP finally needs to make an appearance.


Speaking only for my own "plain vanilla" HT needs, I would never have made the investment in the LRP if it didn't offer DTM and I'd wager that most recent purchasers would place DTM as number their 1 priority. My LRP purchase was when I owned the older RS500 which preceded JVC providing their own DTM (which, IMHO, is almost the equal of Lumagen for the vast majority of HDR content for my current NX7).


----------



## Clark Burk

Honestly unless you had test equipment or another source that was doing the tone mapping differently to compare it to most would not realize there are any issues with the tone mapping. We aren’t talking frequent occurrences here either. I’m very happy with the tone mapping but knowing it can be tweaked just a bit better for certain scenes makes me desire it. After all most owners that go with a LRP are after top tier performance. If that’s not the case then something such as the JVC tone mapping would likely be more than adequate.


----------



## DigitalAV

MOberhardt said:


> Yeah, I know I'm old and cranky but I'm trying to be polite here. The very idea that someone who invests in a rp gives a xxxx about image quality for pip and pop makes my blood boil. I'm not s.
> 
> Or is there's someone here who an given explanation of why one microsecond should be expended on this?
> 
> please, help me understand. I'm at an utter loss.


Because PoP on a scope screen would be amazing. My projector is in my living room. I could watch some sports on one picture and simulate flying around the arena/fairway on the other. Or TV on one and web browser on the other. Kicking up my viewing experience appeals to me, and the promise of PoP is the reason I went with a 4446 instead of a 4242.


----------



## Hoi

Clark Burk said:


> Honestly unless you had test equipment or another source that was doing the tone mapping differently to compare it to most would not realize there are any issues with the tone mapping. We aren’t talking frequent occurrences here either. I’m very happy with the tone mapping but knowing it can be tweaked just a bit better for certain scenes makes me desire it. After all most owners that go with a LRP are after top tier performance. If that’s not the case then something such as the JVC tone mapping would likely be more than adequate.


I spent most of this week putting my 3090 GPU/madVR back into my system, reconfigured the software from scratch, and ripped a few UHD & 1080p blu rays to MKV format. When I was done watching a several of scenes (not with critical eyes), I came to the conclusion that I don't want to be soley tied to a HTPC and the annoyances that came with it when I used it before purchasing my RP a year ago. The picture quality wasn't noticeable or enough for me to warrant going back to madVR+HTPC.

For my specific setup, I love what the RP offers features and picture quality wise. Maybe the Envy can do the same or more for me but I am happy with the RP at its current state and look forward to the improvements. BTW, I'm anxiously waiting for my Stewart ST130G4 scope and 16:9 screens to finally ship ETA Monday!


----------



## Kris Deering

DTM can always be improved as it is a dynamic system, therefore it can never be perfect. I’m super happy with the examples Javs has provided as it shows there are improvements to be made and specific examples to test with. I have no doubt that Lumagen will look at them and do what they can to improve them as they have with everything else over the years.


----------



## Craig Peer

dlinsley said:


> *Three days ago was anyone complaining about DTM and that it needed to be improved?* PiP/PoP is still an advertised feature and was back in 2015 when I upgraded to the Pro from the XD where I did use it. Not often, but I would still like it back. In 2015, DTM and even its predecessor IM were unheard of and so it has been excellent that Lumagen have provided those free of charge to the earlier buyers (the XD had a paid upgrade to 3D since it was an unknown when the XD came out). I'm happy for DTM to be improved first, but PiP/PoP finally needs to make an appearance.


I think it works great now. If it can be made to work even better, that would be fantastic. I can't say I need auto aspect ratio improved ( works fine for me now ) and PIP is not something I can see myself ever using.


----------



## woofer

Jue Liang said:


> I did. Not here, but directly to Lumagen.
> 
> because some of us chose to report problems through the Lumagen support


...Yep....NOT everything is done via THESE forums!!...


----------



## Chicagobear1

woofer said:


> ...Yep....NOT everything is done via THESE forums!!...


Exactly and there will be a lot of Lumagen owners not in these forums. Who ask for pacific improvements. I know a good few


----------



## Technology3456

SJHT said:


> DTM was never originally advertised. Maybe they should have a one time firmware that provides PIP/POP, but removes DTM. Let’s see how many folks load that up.


A lot of people bought the Lumagen only after it had DTM though. In any case, maybe this is an answer that would please everyone:






It seems like Lumagen is becoming more and more popular, rightly so. Maybe it can become big enough in the future that multiple features can be developed at once, but that's just hopeful speculation on my part. That's not to imply it isn't already big. It already seems huge within the high end HT space. In any case if it has to be one or the other right now, my vote would also be for DTM.


----------



## MOberhardt

Regards DTM, is there anything the Lumagen could regarding utilizing Dolby Vision metadata if available to assist?


----------



## Naiera

I bought my LRP for calibration and DTM. My peej gets horrible banding issues if we do gamma correction internally, and the HDR to SDR conversion on the player that supposedly does the best job of that is only passable.

I'm still getting used to the (what seems like) brightness switching between shots, and sometimes in shots 😅 Of course, I watch everything with subtitles on, so it's more obvious for me. I have a master's degree in English, but I still need subs to feel like I'm not missing anything 😜


----------



## Javs

MOberhardt said:


> Regards DTM, is there anything the Lumagen could regarding utilizing Dolby Vision metadata if available to assist?


Frame measurements are actually superior if you can look ahead a frame or 3 anyway. DV doesnt have actual framy by frame data.


----------



## Kris Deering

Absolutely if it was available, but that would require licensing that Dolby isn’t providing.


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Frame measurements are actually superior if you can look ahead a frame or 3 anyway. DV doesnt have actual framy by frame data.


It is scene based but still provides the info one would need to optimize tone mapping. It certainly wouldn’t hurt and would take out the guess work.


----------



## J.P

Are Dolby Vision=12bit vs HDR10=10bit on discs ?


----------



## xPLAYRZx

docrog said:


> I would never have made the investment in the LRP if it didn't offer DTM and I'd wager that most recent purchasers would place DTM as number their 1 priority.


Exactly this. DTM was the reason to buy a LRP for me. Sure it has lots of other great features, but without a solid DTM solution it would never had made it into my setup.


----------



## alv

xPLAYRZx said:


> Exactly this. DTM was the reason to buy a LRP for me. Sure it has lots of other great features, but without a solid DTM solution it would never had made it into my setup.


No question about this for me. Only real reason.


----------



## thebland

When I think of PIP / POP, I think of the 2000s and large heavy tube TV sets with this feature... I didn't even know people remembered this feature. I thought it was forgotten after the demise of tube tvs. I can't imagine a use for it in today's world...


----------



## Geof

thebland said:


> When I think of PIP / POP, I think of the 2000s and large heavy tube TV sets with this feature... I didn't even know people remembered this feature. I thought it was forgotten after the demise of tube tvs. I can't imagine a use for it in today's world...


How about watching 2 football games on one screen......


----------



## thebland

Geof said:


> How about watching 2 football games on one screen......


Thought of that.. And even on my 168" wide screen, I still don't see a use. In todays world, multiple large flatscreens in a room is a far better option and far cheaper. I think if there was a need, we'd see it in todays larger flat screens.


----------



## gwthacker

Geof said:


> How about watching 2 football games on one screen......


I would definitely use. Especially during March Madness. 

Now with that said, I would suggest sequentially working on DTM and then “nice to have” features like Pip/Pop. I don’t see this as an either/or scenario 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Geof

gwthacker said:


> I would definitely use. Especially during March Madness.
> 
> Now with that said, I would suggest sequentially working on DTM and then “nice to have” features like Pip/Pop. I don’t see this as an either/or scenario
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Agreed


----------



## Geof

thebland said:


> Thought of that.. And even on my 168" wide screen, I still don't see a use. In todays world, multiple large flatscreens in a room is a far better option and far cheaper. I think if there was a need, we'd see it in todays larger flat screens.


I won't use it either but there are folks in this thread who purchased a LRP because of PIP/POP. We've heard from several already - and as we heard from gwthacker he would use it as well.


----------



## thebland

Geof said:


> I won't use it either but there are folks in this thread who purchased a LRP because of PIP/POP. We've heard from several already - and as we heard from gwthacker he would use it as well.


I am sure there are those that did purchase for such, but I would imagine they are a rounding error in terms of priority features measured against all owners. Not that they should be ignored but it's such an esoteric feature that I can see why it will likely never make it in.


----------



## sjschaff

I have been through a number of Lumagen products over the years. Initially had other products, no longer on the market. It was always about proper scaling as the key factor. Never considered any need for PIP/POP even when we had the option to watch many sports at once - though a nice slow game of baseball with a dollop of C-SPAN on the side (with sound off, while listening to some sweet sounds on the HiFi) would have made a bit of sense. The recent Pro series with all that Jim has brought to the table with color has been great. And the hardware design has absolutely been key to allowing for all of this without added expense. Unlike many on this forum, I'm no fanatic. Simply happy to have a better video than my JVC would offer with its limited controls. And of course with calibrators like Kris to take the system to the max!


----------



## Geof

thebland said:


> I am sure there are those that did purchase for such, but I would imagine they are a rounding error in terms of priority features measured against all owners. Not that they should be ignored but it's such an esoteric feature that I can see why it will likely never make it in.


Rounding error or not PIP/POP is an advertised future feature (for 444/x units) and as such it needs to be added at some point (lest lawyers getting involved). I mentioned several pages ago that I though DTM should be prioritized but no way do I advocate forgetting about PIP/POP, regardless of how many folks use that feature.

And JRP mentioned -- Auto Aspect work would continue (as they have already started working on it), followed by DTM then PIP/POP. 
IMO, that is a good plan.


----------



## thebland

‘Lawyers get involved…’ [Laughing]


----------



## Naiera

gwthacker said:


> I would definitely use. Especially during March Madness.


I’m pretty sure the app does that.


----------



## Geof

Deleted


----------



## docrog

I doubt that any lawyers would be takers when the advertisement that you've posted specifically says (*FOR ONLY THAT FEATURE*): *FUTURE* UPDATE. That's about as open ended as a manufacturer can be, with the consumer making the purchase on "good faith" that the feature will be provided at some point.


----------



## appelz

thebland said:


> When I think of PIP / POP, I think of the 2000s and large heavy tube TV sets with this feature... I didn't even know people remembered this feature. I thought it was forgotten after the demise of tube tvs. I can't imagine a use for it in today's world...


I've designed and commissioned large video walls in homes that have the ability to show multiple images, but we used specific multi-view image processors to handle it. If someone is truly interested in that feature, a dedicated piece of hardware for that seems the best option.


----------



## thebland

appelz said:


> I've designed and commissioned large video walls in homes that have the ability to show multiple images, but we used specific multi-view image processors to handle it. If someone is truly interested in that feature, a dedicated piece of hardware for that seems the best option.


Now that’s a multi-view application that sounds pretty sweet. I am likely the control system you would do for that would make it super easy to use. I mention a processor dedicated to such is the way to go.


----------



## LJG

thebland said:


> Thought of that.. And even on my 168" wide screen, I still don't see a use. In todays world, multiple large flatscreens in a room is a far better option and far cheaper. I think if there was a need, we'd see it in todays larger flat screens.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Like this?


----------



## thebland

Exactly. We’ll played.


----------



## Technology3456

gwthacker said:


> I would definitely use. Especially during March Madness.
> 
> Now with that said, I would suggest sequentially working on DTM and then “nice to have” features like Pip/Pop. I don’t see this as an either/or scenario
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I've never really been a big sports watcher, but I've been to diners that had lots of games on at once, and it was a little annoying because of the audio if you were in the wrong spot. but What would be cool is a feature that automatically mutes commentary between plays, like in an NFL game, and switches the audio to the game that has a play going on at that second, and then mutes that game and turns on the audio to the next. But I imagine that would be hard to pull off lol.


----------



## bosler.bruce

I've been going through this thread, currently back on page 750 and see about JVC NZ8 issues with HDMI and Lumagen and getting older JVC firmware. Without reading through the next 80 pages, has this been resolved? I have the projector and have a 5244 on order... thanks


----------



## Peule_P

bosler.bruce said:


> I've been going through this thread, currently back on page 750 and see about JVC NZ8 issues with HDMI and Lumagen and getting older JVC firmware. Without reading through the next 80 pages, has this been resolved? I have the projector and have a 5244 on order... thanks


Setting the JVC colorspace to 422 instead of ‘auto’ seems to work fine for most folks, even on the latest JVC firmware


----------



## bjorg

I might be the only one, but I'm a bit disappointed that it took a forum member like Javs to measure the actual HDMI output to see that DTM was clipping. I remember Jim mentioning that it looked great in his test theater and I never questioned it. However, in hindsight, it does seem wrong that our top-of-the-line processor is measured solely by "how it looks to someone". To be clear, I have huge respect for Patrick and Jim, and I'm a big fan of Lumagen, but having such an expensive and precise instrument to being evaluated on subjective measures doesn't seem right. Again, I may be the only one to feel that way, but I wanted to share my feelings about it. Also, +1 on prioritizing DTM over PiP/PoP!


----------



## desray2k

bjorg said:


> in hindsight, it does seem wrong that our top-of-the-line processor is measured solely by "how it looks to someone". To be clear, I have huge respect for Patrick and Jim, and I'm a big fan of Lumagen, but having such an expensive and precise instrument to being evaluated on subjective measures doesn't seem right. Again, I may be the only one to feel that way, but I wanted to share my feelings about it.


Totally get how you feel...I just hope that your candid comments will be well received by Jim and Patrick. For me, I think there is nothing wrong to express your disappointment especially since you have paid for it with your hard-earned money but let's see this in a positive light that Jim and Patrick are acknowledging that the DTM algorithm can be improved further and that my friend is something worth rejoicing. I suggest we cast aside the negative comments and look at the "bright" side of things.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

bjorg said:


> I might be the only one, but I'm a bit disappointed that it took a forum member like Javs to measure the actual HDMI output to see that DTM was clipping. I remember Jim mentioning that it looked great in his test theater and I never questioned it. However, in hindsight, it does seem wrong that our top-of-the-line processor is measured solely by "how it looks to someone". To be clear, I have huge respect for Patrick and Jim, and I'm a big fan of Lumagen, but having such an expensive and precise instrument to being evaluated on subjective measures doesn't seem right. Again, I may be the only one to feel that way, but I wanted to share my feelings about it. Also, +1 on prioritizing DTM over PiP/PoP!


How do you think MadVR got where it is today?


----------



## Javs

Aaron Toulmin said:


> How do you think MadVR got where it is today?


Tens of thousands of hours of user testing and pixel peeping combined. 

But it's really the intense pixel peeping where you can get the most done and really see the science of what's happening. When I got that waveform working I flooded the madvr threads with similar stuff and we found some things to improve or learned even more from that such as desat and curve shapes that flowed quite naturally on the waveform with less sharp kinks etc. It's all just part of the process and nothing at all to fear. Dtm is a nearly never ending persuit of perfection. 

Lumagen has great dtm, it's not fundamentally broken or anything. I've just found a few things that could make it better really. Clipping is not really rampant, there are test pieces I know to look for due to the hours I've already spent on the madvr side of things. 

Maybe ditching the maxcll rules will improve some clipping for sure, colour clipping needs more desat most likely, but that doesn't really scream at me save for some really specific stuff, but still, probably shouldn't happen. 

The padding down the dynamic range thing has a fair bit of room for a decent bump in depth to image etc if they can do that with rolling average or something that's a bit harder as you need to make sure you don't actually clip stuff, looking ahead a few frames and a rolling average with scene change detection would be good for this. They may already have scene change detection I am not 100% sure. 

It doesn't surprise me that there are some things to work on, madvr also has quite a few things we want to looks at, the list seems to keep growing. Despite what some may think, dtm is indeed close to kinda like rocket science! It's really not easy. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Chicagobear1

Javs said:


> Tens of thousands of hours of user testing and pixel peeping combined.
> 
> But it's really the intense pixel peeping where you can get the most done and really see the science of what's happening. When I got that waveform working I flooded the madvr threads with similar stuff and we found some things to improve or learned even more from that such as desat and curve shapes that flowed quite naturally on the waveform with less sharp kinks etc. It's all just part of the process and nothing at all to fear. Dtm is a nearly never ending persuit of perfection.
> 
> Lumagen has great dtm, it's not fundamentally broken or anything. I've just found a few things that could make it better really. Clipping is not really rampant, there are test pieces I know to look for due to the hours I've already spent on the madvr side of things.
> 
> Maybe ditching the maxcll rules will improve some clipping for sure, colour clipping needs more desat most likely, but that doesn't really scream at me save for some really specific stuff, but still, probably shouldn't happen.
> 
> The padding down the dynamic range thing has a fair bit of room for a decent bump in depth to image etc if they can do that with rolling average or something that's a bit harder as you need to make sure you don't actually clip stuff, looking ahead a few frames and a rolling average with scene change detection would be good for this. They may already have scene change detection I am not 100% sure.
> 
> It doesn't surprise me that there are some things to work on, madvr also has quite a few things we want to looks at, the list seems to keep growing. Despite what some may think, dtm is indeed close to kinda like rocket science! It's really not easy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


And don't forget the help on the processing front as well


----------



## Johnnyfocal

Kris Deering said:


> It is scene based but still provides the info one would need to optimize tone mapping. It certainly wouldn’t hurt and would take out the guess work.
> 
> It’s frame by frame based so is hdr10+. Dolby vision comes in two flavours assist version which is just the frame brightness data or full DV which is mostly on UHD Blu-ray Discs which is full 12ish picture information. All the data is baked into each frame so it can’t go out of sync!


----------



## Johnnyfocal

It’s frame by frame based so is hdr10+. Dolby vision comes in two flavours assist version which is just the frame brightness data or full DV which is mostly on UHD Blu-ray Discs which is full 12ish picture information. All the data is baked into each frame so it can’t go out of sync!


----------



## bosler.bruce

jevansoh said:


> I was looking on Keces website to see where the vents were so I could decide how best to cool it and it appears there are none!
> 
> It doesn't show a picture of the bottom, though. Can you let me know if there are vents on the bottom (or anywhere else) please?


I'm only on page 802 so maybe this has been addressed. Keces has no vents which I think is a huge flaw in the design given how hot they get. I've had several and always add fans which lowers the temperature of most components inside by over 20 degrees C, which is significant. The fans blow down. These are quiet 12V fans, but I put an appropriate size resistor in line with the fans to drop their operating voltage down to around 8-9V which makes them virtually silent but still move a lot of air. The board just keeps me from reaching in and touching the 110 when I turn it on and off.


----------



## uderman

bosler.bruce said:


> I'm only on page 802 so maybe this has been addressed. Keces has no vents which I think is a huge flaw in the design given how hot they get. I've had several and always add fans which lowers the temperature of most components inside by over 20 degrees C, which is significant. The fans blow down. These are quiet 12V fans, but I put an appropriate size resistor in line with the fans to drop their operating voltage down to around 8-9V which makes them virtually silent but still move a lot of air. The board just keeps me from reaching in and touching the 110 when I turn it on and off.
> View attachment 3307877



The enclosure itself acts as the heatsink. Look at the rectifier and the regulators on the right side. They are mounted to a thick aluminum block which is coupled with the enclosure. It does not need fans. It is normal the enclosure is warm to touch. It does not hurt to keep the top open and use fans but not required.


----------



## bosler.bruce

uderman said:


> It does not need fans.


is a matter of opinion. The case is not "warm to the touch".... the case gets hot.. the components inside get 120 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter including the electrolytic capacitors which deteriorate much more rapidly when they get this hot. 

Anytime I can lower the temperature of electronic components 30 degrees or more in a device that I own then it is my opinion that this is a necessary thing


----------



## alv

Javs thanks for putting your measurements in perspective.


----------



## uderman

bosler.bruce said:


> is a matter of opinion. The case is not "warm to the touch".... the case gets hot.. the components inside get 120 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter including the electrolytic capacitors which deteriorate much more rapidly when they get this hot.
> 
> Anytime I can lower the temperature of electronic components 30 degrees or more in a device that I own then it is my opinion that this is a necessary thing


Opinion yes, design flaw? no in my opinion. The operating range for those Rubycon capacitors are -40C to 105C. It has a fuse, an MOV and a single capacitor low pass filter for differential noise rejection and no DC bias filtering on its input stage. I am more worried about this than the temperatures. The circuitry on the secondary side of the transformer is pretty fancy though.


----------



## bosler.bruce

uderman said:


> The operating range for those Rubycon capacitors are -40C to 105C.


maximum temperature rating is a red herring. The pertinent data is lifetime vs. temperature, not a maximum rating

an electrolytic capacitor life is doubled for every 10 degree C drop in temperature. My experience shows removing the lid and adding a fan drops the temperature by about 20C. That will quadruple the life of the caps and also greatly extend the life of the semiconductors which is well worth the effort... in my opinion

and I will leave it at that


----------



## Geof

bosler.bruce said:


> maximum temperature rating is a red herring. The pertinent data is lifetime vs. temperature, not a maximum rating
> 
> an electrolytic capacitor life is doubled for every 10 degree C drop in temperature. My experience shows removing the lid and adding a fan drops the temperature by about 20C. That will quadruple the life of the caps and also greatly extend the life of the semiconductors which is well worth the effort... in my opinion
> 
> and I will leave it at that


There is more to it than just temperature. Ripple current is a big factor. It can still be within temp specs but if the ripple current is too high the cap dies early. I have found that some designs use too small of a cap to keep ripple current within spec of the cap (larger caps = less ripple current but also have bigger footprint and cost).
Generally tho I agree with your comment...105ºC caps last longer than 85ºC parts and cooler is better than hot for longevity (with either temp grade part).


----------



## uderman

I don’t have an argument against your added fans. It will increase the odds against time for sure. You called it a design flaw on your previous comment. All I am saying is, technically it is within specs, therefore it’s not a design flaw. The manufacturer has no longevity claims. I have two of these, plugged in and powered on 24/7 for 3 years. So far no problems.

These linear power supplies are primarily aimed for audiophiles. They would have a big complain about the fans. I can see why the manufacturer made the design decision to omit active cooling.


----------



## uderman

Single output model has 16x 2200uF Rubycon electrolytic caps, an LT bridge rectifier, 4x Toshiba regulators.

Dual output model has 8x 2200uF Rubycon electrolytic caps, an LT bridge rectifier, 2x Toshiba regulators per output.

Both models have a separate 6.5V tap from the transformer, a bridge rectifier, an electrolytic cap (can’t remember size) and a single regulator for the 5V USB output.

Both models have a separate 7.5V tap with associated rectifier and regulator electronics to power the front LCD and the over/under voltage/current relays.

There is a fuse on the secondary side of the transformer. All other protection is done in active with relaying (2 per output). I don’t see any passive protection for redundancy. I don’t see any protection on the USB output either.

Overall, I think it is already too much engineering for a $700 power supply. It could surely be much better if one was willing to spend more resources. No DC bias filter on the input side is a big miss though.


----------



## jrp

bjorg said:


> I might be the only one, but I'm a bit disappointed that it took a forum member like Javs to measure the actual HDMI output to see that DTM was clipping. I remember Jim mentioning that it looked great in his test theater and I never questioned it. However, in hindsight, it does seem wrong that our top-of-the-line processor is measured solely by "how it looks to someone". To be clear, I have huge respect for Patrick and Jim, and I'm a big fan of Lumagen, but having such an expensive and precise instrument to being evaluated on subjective measures doesn't seem right. Again, I may be the only one to feel that way, but I wanted to share my feelings about it. Also, +1 on prioritizing DTM over PiP/PoP!


I disagree. In the end a trained observer is the best judge of video quality since they see what other humans see, but are trained to see issues. Tools, especially pixel peeking for scaling analysis, show things that cannot be seen at viewing distance for 4k video.

That said we have had private feedback from tools such as Javs uses. It is just these have been private (which I think is actually a better approach), rather than public that causes less experienced users to freak out about corner cases.

We really appreciate Javs quantitative analysis of DTM to put more perspective on our qualitative viewing analysis. The plots to DTM are helpful, but more important are the additional scenes we have now added to our list to work on.

We have known for over a year we need to revisit Desaturation and the Dyn Pad amount. Given our resource constraints we choose to instead work on the pipeline enhancements. These dramatically improve scaling for 4k60 (although essentially the same for 4k24 with a bit more pipeline precision in some setups). The DTM plots Javs has posted show us what we already knew was needed and we had plans to revisit. They do provide additional details about the few corner cases we should work on for DTM.

Even before the pipeline enhancements the Radiance Pro scaling scored 25% _higher_ then the other guys on the Tektronix image scaling analysis hardware. This is a quantitative analysis tool based on 25 years of efforts by Tektronix improving algorithms to judge scaling based on what the human vision system actually sees. This tool is in-line with my "trained viewer analysis" philosophy, and provides the quantitative feedback to confirm our design choices.

Someone posted (maybe Javs) that the input to output is not 100% pixel matched on the Pro. Exactly! The Pro is always trying to improve the input, and so the output is _not supposed to match_ the input exactly. Saying it is not as good because it does not exactly match the input is wrong. The Tektronix image analysis is the best tool for this comparison since it looks at the scaled result based on the human vision system and not just a digital correlation.

I am a strong advocate of the final analysis for video quality must be trained observers sitting at viewing distance. Pixel peeping for image quality IMO often leads to the wrong optimization choices. I know Javs and I have gone back and forth on this, and I fully agree pixel peeking for the engineers doing the design provides good information. It is just, as difficult as it is, the only result that matters is what is seen at viewing distance by trained observers.


----------



## Javs

I really disagree on the Tektronix thing though. I mean what scaler is it trained to look at and score against? Those units have to be calibrated against something? Is it psnr and such vs a ground truth? If it is then I can't possibly see how it wins.

I've tested 1080p scaled to uhd against a uhd master and to be frank it's not even close with certain examples. And this is visible to both a human and psnr testing. The downscaling is also far behind where it could be. 

Can you produce the results and share them? The problem is we just have to take your word that because it's such an expensive tester it must be infallible, but that's not good enough for me when therenis such visible differences in scaling. 

Btw the input output psnr is how I found that your lumagen has a line of stray pixels down the side, the rest is I think due to chroma position. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> We have known for over a year we need to revisit Desaturation and the Dyn Pad amount. Given our resource constraints we choose to instead work on the pipeline enhancements.


Theres nothin like a kick in the butt they say!... At least, we say that around here, and I mean that in a very nice way.

Also, I am not a lumagen owner, so my being very public about it is actually really kinda half the whole point of it. Also if I share something privately with you, then there is this really strange in the back of my mind thing like Im not even allowed to mention it publicly, and unless its legit in confidence stuff I dont really like being held to that. I think people have a right to know scientifically exactly what the thing is doing (I know I have always wanted to know), so its really a service rather than a disservice to your client base.

I look forward to running all the footage again and being able to say the lumagen flies through it with no issue at all.


----------



## arsenalfc89

Honestly the Lumagen with our projector is the only thing that makes my wife prefer the projector over an OLED. There’s always room for improvement but at some point we have to realize this image quality we are getting is absurd, in a good way. Honestly DTM as is, is better than what I’ve ever seen out of a projector, including from the cinema.


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## Michael-S

I’ve purchased two Radiance Pros because they provide a splendid experience coupled with my JVC 4K projector, Panamorph DCR lens and 140” ST130 G4 scope screen.

For the three years I’ve owned them, I have never had occasion to be the slightest bit disappointed. I’m happy to defer to Jim’s judgement about how to make it excel because he’s proven he has a knack for it. The image quality provided is delightful, I don’t care if it’s not perfect.


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## arsenalfc89

Michael-S said:


> I’ve purchased two Radiance Pros because they provide a splendid experience coupled with my JVC 4K projector, Panamorph DCR lens and 140” ST130 G4 scope screen.
> 
> For the three years I’ve owned them, I have never had occasion to be the slightest bit disappointed. I’m happy to defer to Jim’s judgement about how to make it excel because he’s proven he has a knack for it. The image quality provided is delightful, I don’t care if it’s not perfect.


Exactly. We can find room for improvement in every tech but once in a while a piece of tech comes out that changes the game. For me it was the smartphone, robot vacuum, and now the Lumagen is on that list. I personally believe it should be a mandatory purchase for every projector. Keep improvements going but never forget to sit back and enjoy.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Michael-S said:


> I’ve purchased two Radiance Pros because they provide a splendid experience coupled with my JVC 4K projector, Panamorph DCR lens and 140” ST130 G4 scope screen.
> 
> For the three years I’ve owned them, I have never had occasion to be the slightest bit disappointed. I’m happy to defer to Jim’s judgement about how to make it excel because he’s proven he has a knack for it. The image quality provided is delightful, I don’t care if it’s not perfect.


If you've never been disappointed by your Lumagen you've either been watching mostly SDR content or aren't very discriminating. I'm not saying this to be insulting to either you or anyone (including Lumagen who I wholeheartedly respect), but I personally feel that dismissing the DTM issues as something that only perfectionists or pixel-peepers would notice is not fair. Lumagen processes a large percentage of content wonderfully. To me it's not so much improving the performance on this but the content that it doesn't get right (where it might just appear as an overly dark or 'meh' transfer to viewers when it could actually look much better).


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> Even before the pipeline enhancements the Radiance Pro scaling scored 25% _higher_ then the other guys on the Tektronix image scaling analysis hardware. This is a quantitative analysis tool based on 25 years of efforts by Tektronix improving algorithms to judge scaling based on what the human vision system actually sees. This tool is in-line with my "trained viewer analysis" philosophy, and provides the quantitative feedback to confirm our design choices.
> 
> Someone posted (maybe Javs) that the input to output is not 100% pixel matched on the Pro. Exactly! The Pro is always trying to improve the input, and so the output is _not supposed to match_ the input exactly. Saying it is not as good because it does not exactly match the input is wrong. The Tektronix image analysis is the best tool for this comparison since it looks at the scaled result based on the human vision system and not just a digital correlation.


Would love to see more technical info about how and what the Tektronix tests and what kind of results it puts out. Is it just one "score" for the device or multiple results for different areas? Without more info the* "scored 25% higher" *means pretty much nothing compared to @Javs testing.


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## Michael-S

Deleted


----------



## Clark Burk

MDesigns said:


> Would love to see more technical info about how and what the Tektronix tests and what kind of results it puts out. Is it just one "score" for the device or multiple results for different areas? Without more info the* "scored 25% higher" *means pretty much nothing compared to @Javs testing.


Just searched and saw this info but I have no idea if this is what is being referred to.....



https://download.tek.com/document/28W_21916_1_LR_Letter_0.pdf



It's an interesting read though. If the LRP was tested I would be curious to see the results if Jim sees fit and is willing to post them. I can also see where that could be privileged information that Lumagen paid for and decides to keep in house for competitive reasons.


----------



## jrp

Clark Burk said:


> Just searched and saw this info but I have no idea if this is what is being referred to.....
> 
> 
> 
> https://download.tek.com/document/28W_21916_1_LR_Letter_0.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> It's an interesting read though. If the LRP was tested I would be curious to see the results if Jim sees fit and is willing to post them. I can also see where that could be privileged information that Lumagen paid for and decides to keep in house for competitive reasons.


I can confirm the testing was done on the Tektronix PQA500.


----------



## jrp

Javs:

Patrick found the black pixel issue at right, but it only occurred with a 9 GHz input card. So we believe your test was done with a 9 GHz input card.

We always recommend an 18 GHz input card for HDR sources. I do not think this affects the DTM saturation plots you have posted, but it will affect your image quality analysis to a small degree if you are running at 4k60.

If you could, while doing your image quality test, please email lumagen.com support pictures of the four Info Pages (press OK, take picture, repeat) and I can help make sure you have an optimally configured unit.

===== 

Do you have a test pattern you can refer us to that has what you believe is the Chroma shift? Do, you think the shift is horizontal, vertical, or both? Also, need to know if this is a 4k24 or a 4k60 test you are doing, and the input and output formats. A picture of the four Info Pages would give us the information we need for format and rates.

We have looked for a Chroma Shift digitally before and did not find one, but a Chroma shift could have crept in during the pipeline enhancement work.

===== 

Thanks again for providing your results.


----------



## Johnnyfocal

jrp said:


> I can confirm the testing was done on the Tektronix PQA500.


It’s actually the The Tektronix PQA600C which is now obsolete and replaced by the Tektronix Video MPX2-25 that was used!


----------



## jrp

Johnnyfocal said:


> It’s actually the The Tektronix PQA600C which is now obsolete and replaced by the Tektronix Video MPX2-25 that was used!


Jon:

Thanks for the correction. I thought it was the PQA500, but good to hear it is a newer model that was used.


----------



## Michael-S

Ian_Currie said:


> If you've never been disappointed by your Lumagen you've either been watching mostly SDR content or aren't very discriminating. I'm not saying this to be insulting to either you or anyone (including Lumagen who I wholeheartedly respect), but I personally feel that dismissing the DTM issues as something that only perfectionists or pixel-peepers would notice is not fair. Lumagen processes a large percentage of content wonderfully. To me it's not so much improving the performance on this but the content that it doesn't get right (where it might just appear as an overly dark or 'meh' transfer to viewers when it could actually look much better).


I did not say what you have ascribed to me. I said I enjoy it in spite of imperfections, and that when Jim says he finds a divergence in what looks good for dynamic moving images and what pixel peeping measures, that I prefer to accept his judgement on what to present via the *LRP*.

None of this is dismissive of anything or insinuates there is no value in pixel peeping. As to your assertion that one must be lacking in discernment in order to choose not to be bothered by imperfections, I find it is illogical because it’s predicated on a false paradigm.


----------



## MDesigns

Clark Burk said:


> Just searched and saw this info but I have no idea if this is what is being referred to.....
> 
> 
> 
> https://download.tek.com/document/28W_21916_1_LR_Letter_0.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> It's an interesting read though. If the LRP was tested I would be curious to see the results if Jim sees fit and is willing to post them. I can also see where that could be privileged information that Lumagen paid for and decides to keep in house for competitive reasons.





Johnnyfocal said:


> It’s actually the The Tektronix PQA600C which is now obsolete and replaced by the Tektronix Video MPX2-25 that was used!


Thanks, that is interesting! I looked at the PQA600 version and it really has multiple tests. The test equipment itself is probably really good. What is missing here is how both tested units scored in the different areas. Also what was used as a reference in picture quality and scaling picture quality tests has a big difference, and what where the used settings and software versions in both tested devices.

I wish some 3rd party could test the units @Javs style and document the setup and results. Maybe @Johnnyfocal can supply @Javs the Tektronix 😎


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## woofer

jrp said:


> Javs:
> 
> Patrick found the black pixel issue at right, but it only occurred with a 9 GHz input card.* So we believe your test was done with a 9 GHz input card.*


Not @Javs BUT i will jump in as its my 4242 he's got....this 4242 is ONLY 18G...


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## jrp

woofer said:


> Not @Javs BUT i will jump in as its my 4242 he's got....this 4242 is ONLY 18G...


Woofer:

Thanks for the update.

Pat could not get an 18 GHz input card to fail with the "black pixels." As sometimes happens, perhaps once Patrick has a fix for the 9 GHz input card, it will also fix Javs 18 GHz input card case. This is a FPGA change and so will be fixed in a new FPGA Beta release (that also includes a new FPGA). 

We have some software improvements and Patrick and I were discussing releasing a software only update, versus fixing this and releasing an update that changes software and the FPGA.


----------



## LGJr

Anyone,
I just recently upgraded Directv to the Genie2 and C61k mini. The C61k mini shows that it is outputting 444 1080i SDR2020 to my Lumagen Pro. My question is what format and settings should I use as output from Lumagen to LG oled and for calibration. Picture looks oversaturated using sdr2020 and undersaturated with rec709 after calibrating. With both rgb balance was fine. The chart for 2.4sdr2020 was flat until dip at 95ire. Color checker for rec709 is much better. Top picture is 2.4 sdr 2020, bottom picture 2.2 rec709


----------



## woofer

arsenalfc89 said:


> Exactly. We can find room for improvement in every tech but once in a while a piece of tech comes out that changes the game. For me it was the smartphone, robot vacuum, and now the Lumagen is on that list. I personally believe it should be a mandatory purchase for every projector. Keep improvements going but never forget to sit back and enjoy.


Yep.."Everything" has the potential for improvement. 
The Lumagen is still producing a fantastic image in my theatre currently....but any improvement is always welcomed 😀


----------



## jrp

LGJr said:


> Anyone,
> I just recently upgraded Directv to the Genie2 and C61k mini. The C61k mini shows that it is outputting 444 1080i SDR2020 to my Lumagen Pro. My question is what format and settings should I use as output from Lumagen to LG oled and for calibration. Picture looks oversaturated using sdr2020 and undersaturated with rec709 after calibrating. With both rgb balance was fine. The chart for 2.4sdr2020 was flat until dip at 95ire. Color checker for rec709 is much better. Top picture is 2.4 sdr 2020, bottom picture 2.2 rec709


I am not sure the following is the cause of what you are seeing, but I think it is good information for you, and all 4k DirecTV settop box owners, to have:

There has been a bug in the DirecTV 4k boxes for some time. If you ever go to a channel that is HLG (Rec2020), the box forever reports it is outputting Rec 2020 (until you restart it). However, as best our dealers can figure, the HD channels still output Rec 709. DirecTV used to be good about addressing bugs, but from what I hear this one is still there. three (maybe four) years later.

We have a feature in the Pro to overcome this. You can tell the Pro to select the HDR/2020 CMS if either HDR (or HLG) is flagged in the HDMI info frame, or _only_ when HDR/HLG is flagged. The DirecTV gets the HDR/HLG flag correct, and if you say to only select the HDR/2020 (typically CMS1) when the HDR flag is sent, you will get correct colorspace selection behavior when using a 4k DirecTV box.

This is in MENU->Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Type->2020 Flag Use = Use HDR.

This means to use the HDR/2020 CMS _only_ if the HDR flag is being sent.


----------



## Jue Liang

A quick question:
Since the zoom-out function with down arrow button has been replaced by the subtitle mode in the new firmware, do we still have anyway to achieve zoom-out? I actually prefer the zoom out to the subtitle mode, because I found the compression to be somewhat annoying even with the least amount of 6%. Or it would be better if we can adjust the subtitle mode as what we can do with the NLS.


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang said:


> A quick question:
> Since the zoom-out function with down arrow button has been replaced by the subtitle mode in the new firmware, do we still have anyway to achieve zoom-out? I actually prefer the zoom out to the subtitle mode, because I found the compression to be somewhat annoying even with the least amount of 6%. Or it would be better if we can adjust the subtitle mode as we can do with the NLS.


The zoom out feature has not changed. It _only_ applies, as it has always been, if you have first zoomed-in. For example if you zoom-in with an up-arrow click, you get back to no-zoom by pressing the down-arrow one time.

The sub-title feature is only activated if you are not zoomed-in when you press the down-arrow.

=== 

In my testing the 6% subtitle shift works well. We did discuss making this programmable. If we get enough people requesting something other than 6% for the first subtitle click, we can consider making this a programmable setting.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> The zoom out feature has not changed. It _only_ applies, as it has always been, if you have first zoomed-in. For example if you zoom-in with an up-arrow click, you get back to no-zoom by pressing the down-arrow one time.
> 
> The sub-title feature is only activated if you are not zoomed-in when you press the down-arrow.
> 
> ===
> 
> In my testing the 6% subtitle shift works well. We did discuss making this programmable. If we get enough people requesting something other than 6% for the first subtitle click, we can consider making this a programmable setting.


Yes, I understand that zoom out still works if I zoom in first. My question was how can I zoom-out from no zoom-in with the new firmware. I have been using that in the past to shrink the image a little to see the subtitles on my scope screen. I prefer that way to the current subtitle mode.


----------



## Drexler

jrp said:


> In my testing the 6% subtitle shift works well. We did discuss making this programmable. If we get enough people requesting something other than 6% for the first subtitle click, *we can consider making this a programmable setting*.


I put my vote in for this. I find the 6% excessive to the point I dont want to use it unless absolutely necessary (e.g. full or most of a movie in a foreign language) even though I sometimes want it for clarity. Most streams are only half or max one line of text below the active image area. 1-2% should cover that. With a user programmable setting everyone can be happy! 🙂


----------



## Craig Peer

Ian_Currie said:


> If you've never been disappointed by your Lumagen you've either been watching mostly SDR content or aren't very discriminating. I'm not saying this to be insulting to either you or anyone (including Lumagen who I wholeheartedly respect), but I personally feel that dismissing the DTM issues as something that only perfectionists or pixel-peepers would notice is not fair. Lumagen processes a large percentage of content wonderfully. *To me it's not so much improving the performance on this but the content that it doesn't get right (where it might just appear as an overly dark or 'meh' transfer to viewers when it could actually look much better).*


Usually that is a limitation of my projector - not the Lumagen. I need a higher contrast projector.


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang said:


> Yes, I understand that zoom out still works if I zoom in first. My question was how can I zoom-out from no zoom-in with the new firmware. I have been using that in the past to shrink the image a little to see the subtitles on my scope screen. I prefer that way to the current subtitle mode.


I am sorry to say that has never been a feature. I am not sure what you were doing but it was not zooming smaller from a no-zoom state.


----------



## jrp

Someone posted on the comparison thread that I miss-spoke about scoring 25% higher on the Tektronix PSA600C was wrong. However, the data posted was old data.

With the September 2020 Radiance Pro release the Radiance Pro scored "over 5" (sorry I do not have the exact number), and the other product scored 4.2. The number reported of 4.6 for the Radiance Pro was using software before the scaling improvements of the September 2020 releases.

If I assume is was exactly 5, then the ratio is 19% higher for the Radiance Pro. So my 25% is high if this is the case, and I will change my comment to 19% better.

There was a noticeable improvement using the Radiance Pro. This is the software that Woofer used for his blind study of five panelists where all five panelists (and Woofer) "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro image quality."


----------



## Erod

Curious when the software Beta is expected to go final?


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## jrp

Erod said:


> Curious when the software Beta is expected to go final?


This depends on how we define the "production" release.

Patrick has fixes for the "letterbox control" issues reported for the new "Always Top" and "Always Bottom" modes ready. The additional source aspect ratios are completed for manual control. We could post this soon, but without the new aspect ratios in the software for auto-aspect. If we did, this could be called "production."

Faster auto-aspect, or improvements in DTM, are not technically part of the pipeline-enhancement "scope of work." We may choose to enlarge the pipeline enhancement scope of work to include these. This would mean we continue in Beta for a while.

We have not decided which path we will choose yet.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Someone posted on the comparison thread that I miss-spoke about scoring 25% higher on the Tektronix PSA600C was wrong. However, the data posted was old data.
> 
> With the September 2020 Radiance Pro release the Radiance Pro scored "over 5" (sorry I do not have the exact number), and the other product scored 4.2. The number reported of 4.6 for the Radiance Pro was using software before the scaling improvements of the September 2020 releases.
> 
> If I assume is was exactly 5, then the ratio is 19% higher for the Radiance Pro. So my 25% is high if this is the case, and I will change my comment to 19% better.
> 
> There was a noticeable improvement using the Radiance Pro. This is the software that Woofer used for his blind study of five panelists where all five panelists (and Woofer) "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro image quality."


The problem is, and, you are posting here not there so I should respond here, we have no idea what Jon did with MadVR to test it, zero, yet when I do scientific testing here, I am getting jumped all over by everyone incl you checking my settings and making assumptions about them and making sure its totally fair because you dont like that it came 2nd. There are a dozen settings on both devices that can mess up the results. In fairness, I think Jon should do it again, but totally transparently on the forum with the settings we recommend to get the best image quality from them.

There are settings on both machines/products that will mess up your scores big time. You repeat your scores but not how you got there specifically which is a bit of a problem for me to believe them credible. If he posted something saying this is all the settings on both machines, this is the footage we fed it and this is the raw data results, then nobody would question it. Thats also why in the other thread we are actually trying to even find a test where LRP wins. We are going out of our way to find an example where it scores higher, Its a lot more respect than MadVR has been given when the results were the other way around, all we got was LRP wins over 5 etc... Very, very, very vague.

For Pauls test, I thought it was a bunch of his mates? In rural Victoria high country I find it hard to believe every one of them was an astute videophile like Paul, I thought they were normal guys with an interest in movies, but let him expand on that, and In total fairness to the Envy, it was barely doing desat back then so it was IMO grossly oversaturated, and in talking with Paul in depth about this at the time, that was the MAJOR reason why, it was using even worse settings than the PC version. At the time VERY valid and fair to prefer the LRP DTM no surprise because colour can scream at you from any distance. That would potentially be very different now since desat has been fixed for over a year and now its LRP which is having desat issues...

@Johnnyfocal I know you read this so perhaps you could expand for people here, dont worry about pleasing Jim, its the people of the forum that would love for you to quantify in detail what you did with the tektronix, after all any test like this is actually for their benefit as they are the customer. Its wrong to stand behind the tektronix price and 'industry standard' use without giving context, we are all more intelligent than that. Please respond with all settings used in the test and exactly how you did it, video chain setup, was it an Envy? or MadVR PC, did you use still frames, test patterns or footage for eg, UHD or HD, what colour space and bit rate was it RGB or YUV 422 or 444? I'm not talking about DTM as I can assess that on my own clearly, but would like to hear about the rest and how you arrived at your scores.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> I am sorry to say that has never been a feature. I am not sure what you were doing but it was not zooming smaller from a no-zoom state.


Yes, you are right. I misremembered it. What I actually did was firstly changing my input ratio from 2.35 to 16:9 to shrink the image (I am using a DCR lens, and my output aspect ratio settings is 2.35.), and then zoom in a little bit to make the subtite just at the bottom of my scope screen. By doing this, I can get a slightly zoomed out picture (comparing to 2.35 in 2.35 out) and with no vertical compression.


----------



## Clark Burk

Seems like we are playing a game of king of the mountain. All testing being done now seems to have moved from trying to make constructive improvements to the processors to a game of bragging rights. Like I have said before I thought that the upscaling between the Lumagen and MadVR was very close both being excellent at least from my viewing distance. Then there was a comment about how sad it was that the Lumagen camp can’t even see how inferior their upscaling actually is. Might be somewhat true for me as I’m getting old and the peepers aren’t quite as good as they used to be. I was just giving MY thoughts on the upscaling comparison.
Personally I don’t really care if the Lumagen or MadVR measures better in whatever tests are run for upscaling. I stand by what I see and can find little difference. Others have already told me they hold a different opinion and that’s great. Peoples preferences can vary quite a bit when it comes to sharpness settings.
I‘m happy with how the Lumagen currently performs and have confidence that it will continue to improve. I chose Lumagen because my MadVR HTPC was more difficult to work with and the Envy’s were a bit over my budget. The base performance of all of them are all top tier. 
After having owned the Lumagen for a while now I can absolutely say I have never experienced better customer service from any other company.


----------



## Javs

Clark Burk said:


> Seems like we are playing a game of king of the mountain. All testing being done now seems to have moved from trying to make constructive improvements to the processors to a game of bragging rights.


Wow thats not even close to being it, Its actually crazy how in the other thread we are trying REALLY hard to make lumagen score better in tests, like come up with ideas to take chroma completely out of it for eg as the Lumagen seems to shift Chroma which also lowers its scores. Just think about that, going out of our way to find a test where it can do the _least _possible damage to the picture. When the table was flipped the other way, no, just decalre LRP undisputed best VP in the world. Cmon, if anything we just need to get back down to earth a little. 

I can tell you DTM from both vendors in most cases is eerily similar, at least now. I kicked up an equal amount of stink a couple years ago when I wasnt happy with desat on MadVR too. It just drives the products forward and we all get better images in the end for it.



Clark Burk said:


> Like I have said before I thought that the upscaling between the Lumagen and MadVR was very close both being excellent at least from my viewing distance. Then there was a comment about how sad it was that the Lumagen camp can’t even see how inferior their upscaling actually is. Might be somewhat true for me as I’m getting old and the peepers aren’t quite as good as they used to be. I was just giving MY thoughts on the upscaling comparison.
> 
> Personally I don’t really care if the Lumagen or MadVR measures better in whatever tests are run for upscaling. I stand by what I see and can find little difference. Others have already told me they hold a different opinion and that’s great. Peoples preferences can vary quite a bit when it comes to sharpness settings.
> 
> I‘m happy with how the Lumagen currently performs and have confidence that it will continue to improve. I chose Lumagen because my MadVR HTPC was more difficult to work with and the Envy’s were a bit over my budget. The base performance of all of them are all top tier.
> After having owned the Lumagen for a while now I can absolutely say I have never experienced better customer service from any other company.


Thats totally fine, but you are sounding a little threatened by the idea of healthy head to head comparisons as if its going to invalidate your personal choices? Nobody is here to tell you what you should be happy with. I was sent a LRP because I have the means and the will to do in depth analysis like this. Seems like some of you are going to benefit as a byproduct of locating some bugs so its great for all! I had a really prductive 3 way chat with Kris, Jim and Pat the opther day and we went through some test scenes and behaviors and talked about it.

As an aside I just dont like words over data. This forum over the past couple years has only had words attributed to the Lumagen as its not really easy to capture pretty much unmolested screenshots and dive into what its doing and more than that actually be able to share it so anyone can see, I wanted to give some data and context to the words being thrown around in the past. That is all. Other people turn it into something else. But I am also not going to just sit here and have unfair comments thrown around and really outdated tests that cannot be corroborated or repeated by others with other tools. I just dont work like that.

With that said, I think I am really trying here to not drive this by any emotion, I am just literally posting stuff and I am willing to be challenged on how its setup etc and confirm things as long as its asked in a nice way and not downright rude.

A good eg, I really like to read reviews and amplifier comparisons and analysis done by Amir from Audio Science Review. Completely by the numbers. Devoid of personal opinion, rather he presents opinions guided and backed by hard data. If you want to know what the very best DAC or Amp is out there most faithful to the source right now all you have to do is look at that data.



Clark Burk said:


> The base performance of all of them are all top tier.


You can say that again. Both are doing a wonderful job!


----------



## DigitalAV

Javs said:


> Wow thats not even close to being it, Its actually crazy how in the other thread we are trying REALLY hard to make lumagen score better in tests, like come up with ideas to take chroma completely out of it for eg as the Lumagen seems to shift Chroma which also lowers its scores. Just think about that, going out of our way to find a test where it can do the _least _possible damage to the picture. When the table was flipped the other way, no, just decalre LRP undisputed best VP in the world. Cmon, if anything we just need to get back down to earth a little.
> 
> I can tell you DTM from both vendors in most cases is eerily similar, at least now. I kicked up an equal amount of stink a couple years ago when I wasnt happy with desat on MadVR too. It just drives the products forward and we all get better images in the end for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats totally fine, but you are sounding a little threatened by the idea of healthy head to head comparisons as if its going to invalidate your personal choices? Nobody is here to tell you what you should be happy with. I was sent a LRP because I have the means and the will to do in depth analysis like this. Seems like some of you are going to benefit as a byproduct of locating some bugs so its great for all! I had a really prductive 3 way chat with Kris, Jim and Pat the opther day and we went through some test scenes and behaviors and talked about it.
> 
> As an aside I just dont like words over data. This forum over the past couple years has only had words attributed to the Lumagen as its not really easy to capture pretty much unmolested screenshots and dive into what its doing and more than that actually be able to share it so anyone can see, I wanted to give some data and context to the words being thrown around in the past. That is all. Other people turn it into something else. But I am also not going to just sit here and have unfair comments thrown around and really outdated tests that cannot be corroborated or repeated by others with other tools. I just dont work like that.
> 
> With that said, I think I am really trying here to not drive this by any emotion, I am just literally posting stuff and I am willing to be challenged on how its setup etc and confirm things as long as its asked in a nice way and not downright rude.
> 
> A good eg, I really like to read reviews and amplifier comparisons and analysis done by Amir from Audio Science Review. Completely by the numbers. Devoid of personal opinion, rather he presents opinions guided and backed by hard data. If you want to know what the very best DAC or Amp is out there most faithful to the source right now all you have to do is look at that data.
> 
> 
> 
> You can say that again. Both are doing a wonderful job!


We learn a lot from your posts & it's fun to follow some of your examples, I fiddled with my DeSat to Michael Gambon's wand while my cat watched. Thanks for sharing your obsession, keep it up m8


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> Someone posted on the comparison thread that I miss-spoke about scoring 25% higher on the Tektronix PSA600C was wrong. However, the data posted was old data.
> 
> With the September 2020 Radiance Pro release the Radiance Pro scored "over 5" (sorry I do not have the exact number), and the other product scored 4.2. The number reported of 4.6 for the Radiance Pro was using software before the scaling improvements of the September 2020 releases.
> 
> If I assume is was exactly 5, then the ratio is 19% higher for the Radiance Pro. So my 25% is high if this is the case, and I will change my comment to 19% better.
> 
> There was a noticeable improvement using the Radiance Pro. This is the software that Woofer used for his blind study of five panelists where all five panelists (and Woofer) "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro image quality."





Javs said:


> The problem is, and, you are posting here not there so I should respond here, we have no idea what Jon did with MadVR to test it, zero, yet when I do scientific testing here, I am getting jumped all over by everyone incl you checking my settings and making assumptions about them and making sure its totally fair because you dont like that it came 2nd. There are a dozen settings on both devices that can mess up the results. In fairness, I think Jon should do it again, but totally transparently on the forum with the settings we recommend to get the best image quality from them.
> 
> There are settings on both machines/products that will mess up your scores big time. You repeat your scores but not how you got there specifically which is a bit of a problem for me to believe them credible. If he posted something saying this is all the settings on both machines, this is the footage we fed it and this is the raw data results, then nobody would question it. Thats also why in the other thread we are actually trying to even find a test where LRP wins. We are going out of our way to find an example where it scores higher, Its a lot more respect than MadVR has been given when the results were the other way around, all we got was LRP wins over 5 etc... Very, very, very vague.
> 
> For Pauls test, I thought it was a bunch of his mates? In rural Victoria high country I find it hard to believe every one of them was an astute videophile like Paul, I thought they were normal guys with an interest in movies, but let him expand on that, and In total fairness to the Envy, it was barely doing desat back then so it was IMO grossly oversaturated, and in talking with Paul in depth about this at the time, that was the MAJOR reason why, it was using even worse settings than the PC version. At the time VERY valid and fair to prefer the LRP DTM no surprise because colour can scream at you from any distance. That would potentially be very different now since desat has been fixed for over a year and now its LRP which is having desat issues...
> 
> @Johnnyfocal I know you read this so perhaps you could expand for people here, dont worry about pleasing Jim, its the people of the forum that would love for you to quantify in detail what you did with the tektronix, after all any test like this is actually for their benefit as they are the customer. Its wrong to stand behind the tektronix price and 'industry standard' use without giving context, we are all more intelligent than that. Please respond with all settings used in the test and exactly how you did it, video chain setup, was it an Envy? or MadVR PC, did you use still frames, test patterns or footage for eg, UHD or HD, what colour space and bit rate was it RGB or YUV 422 or 444? I'm not talking about DTM as I can assess that on my own clearly, but would like to hear about the rest and how you arrived at your scores.


@jrp To add to what Javs said: The Tektronix PSA600C has at least tens of different tests and we have no idea what the test you are referring is. If I understood the manual correctly, it doesn't do any "scaling testing" per se, it does image and video comparison agains a ground truth perfect result given to it. So to interpret the results one needs to know what was the test, what was the source and what was the ground truth to what the upscaled results were compared to. Was the GT a 4K master or upscale done with some "non-realtime" upscaler he referred to in one article? How was the source downscaled if the GT was 4K? This without any idea how the processors were setup makes it impossible to make out anything of the 20% better or 25% better score. I guess even you have not seen any specs of the test or results of the test if you don't have the exact numbers? Claiming a marketing number without any backup just is like shooting your own leg in this forum, and that is good IMO!


----------



## woofer

Javs said:


> *
> For Pauls test*, I thought it was a bunch of his mates? In rural Victoria high country I find it hard to believe every one of them was an astute videophile like Paul, I thought they were normal guys with an interest in movies, *but let him expand on that*, and In total fairness to the Envy, it was barely doing desat back then so it was IMO grossly oversaturated, and in talking with Paul in depth about this at the time, that was the MAJOR reason why, it was using even worse settings than the PC version. At the time VERY valid and fair to prefer the LRP DTM no surprise because colour can scream at you from any distance. That would potentially be very different now since desat has been fixed for over a year and now its LRP which is having desat issues...


I will reply here for all...  








Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...


new test this time bicubic 60 GT: https://abload.de/img/tropicalvansuhdground3ejzx.png 1080p source: https://abload.de/img/1080pbicubicuhjkb.png what do we learn here experimental jinc2 downscale which is upscaled even with lanczos will trick ymaf to give extremely high results...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Clark Burk

Javs said:


> Wow thats not even close to being it, Its actually crazy how in the other thread we are trying REALLY hard to make lumagen score better in tests, like come up with ideas to take chroma completely out of it for eg as the Lumagen seems to shift Chroma which also lowers its scores. Just think about that, going out of our way to find a test where it can do the _least _possible damage to the picture. When the table was flipped the other way, no, just decalre LRP undisputed best VP in the world. Cmon, if anything we just need to get back down to earth a little.
> 
> I can tell you DTM from both vendors in most cases is eerily similar, at least now. I kicked up an equal amount of stink a couple years ago when I wasnt happy with desat on MadVR too. It just drives the products forward and we all get better images in the end for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats totally fine, but you are sounding a little threatened by the idea of healthy head to head comparisons as if its going to invalidate your personal choices? Nobody is here to tell you what you should be happy with. I was sent a LRP because I have the means and the will to do in depth analysis like this. Seems like some of you are going to benefit as a byproduct of locating some bugs so its great for all! I had a really prductive 3 way chat with Kris, Jim and Pat the opther day and we went through some test scenes and behaviors and talked about it.
> 
> As an aside I just dont like words over data. This forum over the past couple years has only had words attributed to the Lumagen as its not really easy to capture pretty much unmolested screenshots and dive into what its doing and more than that actually be able to share it so anyone can see, I wanted to give some data and context to the words being thrown around in the past. That is all. Other people turn it into something else. But I am also not going to just sit here and have unfair comments thrown around and really outdated tests that cannot be corroborated or repeated by others with other tools. I just dont work like that.
> 
> With that said, I think I am really trying here to not drive this by any emotion, I am just literally posting stuff and I am willing to be challenged on how its setup etc and confirm things as long as its asked in a nice way and not downright rude.
> 
> A good eg, I really like to read reviews and amplifier comparisons and analysis done by Amir from Audio Science Review. Completely by the numbers. Devoid of personal opinion, rather he presents opinions guided and backed by hard data. If you want to know what the very best DAC or Amp is out there most faithful to the source right now all you have to do is look at that data.
> 
> 
> 
> You can say that again. Both are doing a wonderful job!


Thanks for your thoughts. Just a few comments. I think comparisons can provide meaningful insight and in no way do I feel threatened by results one way or the other.
You mentioned Amir in the ASR forum. I enjoy that forum. It provides another look at audio performance to balance the listening tells all group. I think the toughest job is to find measurements that can help explain why people think a piece of gear sounds good or not so good. Again that's where balance comes into play. I think measurements can be a key tool along with listening or viewing in video to get a good overall view on performance.
I always remember the line if the measurements don't agree with what you see and hear then either the measurements are wrong or you are not measuring the right thing.
I appreciate the work you are all doing in the other thread and hopefully some things can be found that can help bring improvements to some or all of the gear being looked at. That ends up being a win for everyone. Thanks again.


----------



## DigitalAV

DigitalAV said:


> I fiddled with my DeSat to Michael Gambon's wand while my cat watched


Nothing?


----------



## garyolearysteele

DigitalAV said:


> Nothing?
> 
> 
> View attachment 3310554


Tbf last time I made a joke on here, got a ton of likes and laugh emojis (well, maybe 5) the moderator deleted it and I got a warning I’d be banned 🤷🏻😂…


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

jrp said:


> Someone posted on the comparison thread that I miss-spoke about scoring 25% higher on the Tektronix PSA600C was wrong. However, the data posted was old data.
> 
> With the September 2020 Radiance Pro release the Radiance Pro scored "over 5" (sorry I do not have the exact number), and the other product scored 4.2. The number reported of 4.6 for the Radiance Pro was using software before the scaling improvements of the September 2020 releases.
> 
> If I assume is was exactly 5, then the ratio is 19% higher for the Radiance Pro. So my 25% is high if this is the case, and I will change my comment to 19% better.
> 
> There was a noticeable improvement using the Radiance Pro. This is the software that Woofer used for his blind study of five panelists where all five panelists (and Woofer) "overwhelmingly preferred the Radiance Pro image quality."


That was then, now the state of play is very different and Lumagen has fallen behind MadVR for DTM, the one feature most users care about. What we/I want to here is that the issues with Desat, Dynpad and Chroma shifting will be addressed… old test data etc doesn’t mean a lot today.. have my fingers crossed for a positive response from Lumagen to these tests


----------



## MOberhardt

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> That was then, now the state of play is very different and Lumagen has fallen behind MadVR for DTM, the one feature most users care about. What we/I want to here is that the issues with Desat, Dynpad and Chroma shifting will be addressed… old test data etc doesn’t mean a lot today.. have my fingers crossed for a positive response from Lumagen to these tests


Yeah,the very fact that a second is spent on frivolous trinkets like pip and pop that are most definitely unrelated to image quality actually watching a movie is an insult.

Seriously, you have pip and pop on your tv or whatever. What more do you want? Does pip and pop not work with a lumagen? Pathetic. Are you so multi task capable you can watch two separate videos and be offended by image quality? Unbelievable...

Most of us got a Lumagen as the sort of clipping Javs was showing is a visual insult.


----------



## Javs

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> That was then, now the state of play is very different and Lumagen has fallen behind MadVR for DTM, the one feature most users care about. What we/I want to here is that the issues with Desat, Dynpad and Chroma shifting will be addressed… old test data etc doesn’t mean a lot today.. have my fingers crossed for a positive response from Lumagen to these tests


They certainly are looking at everything with an open mind. I have found Jim quite receptive to my feedback and findings. I am not an HDR professor either so some of the things I've found are choices for a reason. They very much want to find improvement if it's there to be found. 

But they certainly are looking at dpad and desat etc. I did a good 4 way call with Jim, Pat and Kris the other day for over an hour and we went over a lot of logic. 

Chroma shifting is looking like a pretty specific case and it's minor now but enough to sway tests I am running. A lot of devices actually shift chroma too. But if I can see it, no reason why we can't improve it. I know Pat was looking at this today. 



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Javs said:


> They certainly are looking at everything with an open mind. I have found Jim quite receptive to my feedback and findings. I am not an HDR professor either so some of the things I've found are choices for a reason. They very much want to find improvement if it's there to be found.
> 
> But they certainly are looking at dpad and desat etc. I did a good 4 way call with Jim, Pat and Kris the other day for over an hour and we went over a lot of logic.
> 
> Chroma shifting is looking like a pretty specific case and it's minor now but enough to sway tests I am running. A lot of devices actually shift chroma too. But if I can see it, no reason why we can't improve it. I know Pat was looking at this today.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


Thats great news, I know there are other features but so many bought these devices for DTM alone.
Great work on the analysis 👍🏻


----------



## Clark Burk

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> That was then, now the state of play is very different and Lumagen has fallen behind MadVR for DTM, the one feature most users care about. What we/I want to here is that the issues with Desat, Dynpad and Chroma shifting will be addressed… old test data etc doesn’t mean a lot today.. have my fingers crossed for a positive response from Lumagen to these tests


What are your current settings for Desaturation and Dynpad and have you tried changing them to see if that improves the issues you're having with DTM? What source(s) are you using and if you can share with us and let us know where in the movie you're seeing these issues we may be able to help confirm the issues and forward them to the Lumagen team. Thanks


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Clark Burk said:


> What are your current settings for Desaturation and Dynpad and have you tried changing them to see if that improves the issues you're having with DTM? What source(s) are you using and if you can share with us and let us know where in the movie you're seeing these issues we may be able to help confirm the issues and forward them to the Lumagen team. Thanks


No specific problem, the conversation thread was around the measurements and the RP performance where compared to the competition. I too see the same issues with dynpad/desat as discussed at length in this and the comparison thread. There’s clearly a few areas for improvement and I’m glad it seems to be underway 👍🏻


----------



## Clark Burk

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> No specific problem, the conversation thread was around the measurements and the RP performance where compared to the competition. I too see the same issues with dynpad/desat as discussed at length in this and the comparison thread. There’s clearly a few areas for improvement and I’m glad it seems to be underway 👍🏻


You have better eyes than me obviously. Can you let me know where you are seeing these issues and maybe I can look a bit closer and see if I can spot them and maybe change a few settings to make them appear easier for me to see. Thanks


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> This depends on how we define the "production" release.
> 
> Patrick has fixes for the "letterbox control" issues reported for the new "Always Top" and "Always Bottom" modes ready. The additional source aspect ratios are completed for manual control. We could post this soon, but without the new aspect ratios in the software for auto-aspect. If we did, this could be called "production."
> 
> Faster auto-aspect, or improvements in DTM, are not technically part of the pipeline-enhancement "scope of work." We may choose to enlarge the pipeline enhancement scope of work to include these. This would mean we continue in Beta for a while.
> 
> We have not decided which path we will choose yet.


Jim,

This is coming from a layman ................. *DON'T-RUSH* !!!

Terry


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

Clark Burk said:


> You have better eyes than me obviously. Can you let me know where you are seeing these issues and maybe I can look a bit closer and see if I can spot them and maybe change a few settings to make them appear easier for me to see. Thanks


Have a look at the comparison thread for some examples. The basement scene in IT is one where if you play the movie via MadVR PC (I don’t have an Envy) and then lumagen you’ll see a difference, it’s not a huge difference, but it’s significant enough, especially in dark scenes. The difference between my JVC RS3000 tone mapping and the RP is quite subtle, I didn’t see a big uptick personally adding in the RP, I’m considering an Envy now but I’m going to wait and see if Lumagen improves since I already have it in my HT.


----------



## Ian_Currie

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Have a look at the comparison thread for some examples. The basement scene in IT is one where if you play the movie via MadVR PC (I don’t have an Envy) and then lumagen you’ll see a difference, it’s not a huge difference, but it’s significant enough, especially in dark scenes. The difference between my JVC RS3000 tone mapping and the RP is quite subtle, I didn’t see a big uptick personally adding in the RP, I’m considering an Envy now but I’m going to wait and see if Lumagen improves since I already have it in my HT.


To make it easier, here's a link to a post that seems to capture the differences I see:








Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...


@Javs Matt i will forward you a few other time stamps from that particular film......there a several other shots that the LRP doesn't fare well with... With that film its probably systemic, so I would be more interested in other films entirely.




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Wayne Z

I have a LRP and a Sony 885. I am an Apple Mac guy, and in the past I have had my installer come out to update the LRP software because I don't do Windows. I do have access to a Windows laptop, but I don't know how to navigate stuff like com ports. Somewhere in the preceding 16,587 posts on this thread, JRP explains how to do this and other info about updating the LRP. I would appreciate it if he could repeat that information.


----------



## Clark Burk

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> Have a look at the comparison thread for some examples. The basement scene in IT is one where if you play the movie via MadVR PC (I don’t have an Envy) and then lumagen you’ll see a difference, it’s not a huge difference, but it’s significant enough, especially in dark scenes. The difference between my JVC RS3000 tone mapping and the RP is quite subtle, I didn’t see a big uptick personally adding in the RP, I’m considering an Envy now but I’m going to wait and see if Lumagen improves since I already have it in my HT.





Ian_Currie said:


> To make it easier, here's a link to a post that seems to capture the differences I see:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...
> 
> 
> @Javs Matt i will forward you a few other time stamps from that particular film......there a several other shots that the LRP doesn't fare well with... With that film its probably systemic, so I would be more interested in other films entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Ok, thanks guys


----------



## Kris Deering

There is no question that Jim and Pat will do everything they can to improve tone mapping. This has been the case for the last few years. People find scenes that could be improved, and the processing improves. This is no different. The clipping is easy as it is typically the metadata. Easy to work around that. The low level shots are just padding, so we will see what they can do there and the desaturation needs to be addressed. 

As Javs has already said, tone mapping is not easy. How many tone mapping solutions are even out there for projectors? 3? And it is a dynamic solution (which means it can never be perfect) and there is absolutely ZERO standard or anything to draw from. I thought Bobof's post awhile back was on point, up until a few days ago NO ONE was complaining about Lumagen's DTM until Javs started running through tests that he knew were a problem in the development of MadVR (extreme fringe cases) outside of Woofer and "Mountain Between Us", which identified other cases that have similar circumstances (clearly this was a movie a lot of people were watching based on the previous reports  ). 

Jim and I had already discussed issues we were still seeing with DTM last year when the focus was the pipeline stuff. So some of this was already on the radar (clipping due to metadata, desaturation) and DPAD had been discussed even before that. This isn't sky is falling stuff and far more often than not, the DTM looks fantastic. I'm sure it will only continue to improve when the focus turns to DTM issues.


----------



## Clark Burk

Wayne Z said:


> I have a LRP and a Sony 885. I am an Apple Mac guy, and in the past I have had my installer come out to update the LRP software because I don't do Windows. I do have access to a Windows laptop, but I don't know how to navigate stuff like com ports. Somewhere in the preceding 16,587 posts on this thread, JRP explains how to do this and other info about updating the LRP. I would appreciate it if he could repeat that information.


Wayne I think when you download a firmware there is a pdf along with it that explains how to do the update.


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf


----------



## spcav

Sorry for the possibly nooby question, but what exactly this pipeline enchantment update offers in terms of image quality?

Compared to previous releases, does it enhances image quality on a 4K 24 input (BluRay 4K, for example) and 4K 24 output (4K projector)?

If I understand correctly, it’s not DTM related, for example.

I read about improving image quality on 4K 60 but does this make any sense when watching 24K material (UHD BD movies)?

I have a MadVR 4K PC as source (RTX 3080) and a JVC 4K (e shift) projector.


----------



## Javs

HI

I will forward this to Pat and Support, but just putting it here too for others.

Make sure *if you are using DTM you need to use YcbCr 422 out*. RGB with DTM on actually has raised black level.

This bug is in both the stable and beta FW's.

See here. Look at the waveforms you see the solid line at the bottom of each waveform where black is. You see it jump up and down when going back and forth between RGB and YcbCr.

At first I thought it was from the Oppo maybe so I turned off DTM, and with HDR throughput its got proper black in RGB. DTM On, blacks raised. They read as RGB 1:1:1 in photoshop.

Please click the links and see the effect.






Black Level : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com









Black Level : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





HDR Throughput DTM OFF.










DTM On










DTM Off










DTM On











Then I tried YcbCr vs RGB... And RGB shifts the whole range a tad brighter. DTM only, when DTM is off, black is fine. YcbCr does not have this bug.






Black Level : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com









Black Level : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com









Black Level : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





RGB










YcbCr










RGB (Btw this shot needs a desat fix, its clipping the fur in the middle of frame no way to fix it currently, Kris found this)










YcbCr










RGB










YcbCr


----------



## Kris Deering

I think it is Extremely rare to find anyone using RGB for the output. 422 is default and always the recommended. Great catch though.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> I think it is Extremely rare to find anyone using RGB for the output. 422 is default and always the recommended. Great catch though.


Why have the option then?

The Lumagen in PSNR tests has been routinely scoring higher with RGB out compared to ycbcr, this bug only affects DTM so its not affecting those tests.

So basically, the only real input is ycbcr 422 and ycbcr 422 for output.


----------



## melb0028

Javs said:


> Why have the option then?
> 
> The Lumagen in PSNR tests has been routinely scoring higher with RGB out compared to ycbcr, this bug only affects DTM so its not affecting those tests.
> 
> So basically, the only real input is ycbcr 422 and ycbcr 422 for output.


I have observed the same issue of raised black in rgb vid output. I’ve seen it not only with 4k input with dtm on but also blu ray and dvd input resolutions. I don’t use rgb mode so thought it was something specific to that mode that wasn’t compatible with my oled tv. 
Seems to be a bug in upscale output as well.


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Why have the option then?
> 
> The Lumagen in PSNR tests has been routinely scoring higher with RGB out compared to ycbcr, this bug only affects DTM so its not affecting those tests.
> 
> So basically, the only real input is ycbcr 422 and ycbcr 422 for output.


I'm not saying NO ONE uses it, but it is not the recommended output. There are cases where some displays don't work well with 422 on the input side (this has been the case with quite a few DLP projectors). Again, it is a good catch and one that I am sure will get fixed. I am just pointing out that the end user would have to go out of his way to use RGB as the output, and I don't think that is typically the case (I work on A LOT of these). Most of the testing you are doing is not very typical of general use.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> I'm not saying NO ONE uses it, but it is not the recommended output. There are cases where some displays don't work well with 422 on the input side (this has been the case with quite a few DLP projectors). Again, it is a good catch and one that I am sure will get fixed. I am just pointing out that the end user would have to go out of his way to use RGB as the output, and I don't think that is typically the case (I work on A LOT of these). Most of the testing you are doing is not very typical of general use.


I've always fed my projectors RGB so it's news to me I guess. Guess that mentality comes from PC thinking. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> I've always fed my projectors RGB so it's news to me I guess. Guess that mentality comes from PC thinking.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


Any reason why in particular? Content is 420 by design and RGB is 8-bit. 444 YCbCr is 10-12 bit (depending on signal) and 422 is always 12 bit. The Lumagen is also not capable of using higher bit depth than 8 bit (deep color) on RGB due to a limitation of the HDMI chip manufacturer.

I realize that 444 and RGB typically do better with test patterns but that is mainly because test patterns are for specific test cases when it comes to color resolution. They rarely have anything to do with actual consumer video playback. They are great for testing display capability, but again, rarely have anything to do with what is actually played on them.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> Any reason why in particular? Content is 420 by design and RGB is 8-bit. 444 YCbCr is 10-12 bit (depending on signal) and 422 is always 12 bit. The Lumagen is also not capable of using higher bit depth than 8 bit (deep color) on RGB due to a limitation of the HDMI chip manufacturer.
> 
> I realize that 444 and RGB typically do better with test patterns but that is mainly because test patterns are for specific test cases when it comes to color resolution. They rarely have anything to do with actual consumer video playback. They are great for testing display capability, but again, rarely have anything to do with what is actually played on them.


Because 99% of my projector viewing is through PC so i feed the projector RGB. The content may be one thing but madvr and even lumagen are working in RGB based colorspaces. Anything other than RGB thru the PC was not optimal at least a while back. Yuv444 looks fine these days though. Also even with the shield and other devices I could see the lack of 444 colour in the menus. RGB always fixed that. 

My pc can output up to 12bit rgb what do you mean it's only 8 bit? 

Chroma upsampling can be seen too, it's right there in my van shots. Madvr and even the old Panasonic ub800 I have were very good as chroma upsampling. Not seen the newer ones. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Chicagobear1

Kris Deering said:


> I think it is Extremely rare to find anyone using RGB for the output. 422 is default and always the recommended. Great catch though.


What about the few of us that use the Lumagen pro for Gaming?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Chicagobear1 said:


> What about the few of us that use the Lumagen pro for Gaming?


Would be few and far between.


----------



## Technology3456

Chicagobear1 said:


> What about the few of us that use the Lumagen pro for Gaming?


Whats the input lag on that? Even with PQ improvements, if the lag is high enough, I can almost guarantee you will have a better experience without it. But if it doesn't have that high input lag then disregard this.


----------



## MDesigns

Technology3456 said:


> Whats the input lag on that? Even with PQ improvements, if the lag is high enough, I can almost guarantee you will have a better experience without it. But if it doesn't have that high input lag then disregard this.


Lumagen is almost lagless in game mode. Only few ms if setup correctly.


----------



## Woof Woof

MDesigns said:


> Lumagen is almost lagless in game mode. Only few ms if setup correctly.


But limited to 4K60.


----------



## Technology3456

MDesigns said:


> Lumagen is almost lagless in game mode. Only few ms if setup correctly.


Wow, that is very impressive! Edit: Not a feature I personally care about but it's great for gamers and impressive technologically.


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## xPLAYRZx

+1 for gaming. I use my LRP (@4K 60) almost more than I do for movies.


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## Chicagobear1

xPLAYRZx said:


> +1 for gaming. I use my LRP (@4K 60) almost more than I do for movies.


I agree if you don't have hdmi 2.1 display the lumagen is more than capable of doing the job.
My gaming settings from jockychan. UK forums 

Game Mode input to output delay is about 3 mS. Wi the lumagen pro.

Game mode
Input-Options -A/V Delay- Game mode ON
Input-Options- Genlock ON save-save


----------



## garyolearysteele

xPLAYRZx said:


> +1 for gaming. I use my LRP (@4K 60) almost more than I do for movies.


There’s gonna be loads of Lumagen users who game or live with someone that does. Both Sony and JVC emphasise their gaming credentials in marketing for their new machines. After much testing I decided to limit the output of my consoles to SDR. Lumagen reports RGB in and 422 out, with the latest firmware the image looks good, I don’t use any game modes on the PJ or RP but don’t notice any lag at all, but I mostly play cinematic adventure games.


----------



## Mikesterz

Javs said:


> HI
> 
> I will forward this to Pat and Support, but just putting it here too for others.
> 
> Make sure *if you are using DTM you need to use YcbCr 422 out*. RGB with DTM on actually has raised black level.
> 
> This bug is in both the stable and beta FW's.
> 
> See here. Look at the waveforms you see the solid line at the bottom of each waveform where black is. You see it jump up and down when going back and forth between RGB and YcbCr.
> 
> At first I thought it was from the Oppo maybe so I turned off DTM, and with HDR throughput its got proper black in RGB. DTM On, blacks raised. They read as RGB 1:1:1 in photoshop.
> 
> Please click the links and see the effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Level : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Level : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HDR Throughput DTM OFF.
> 
> View attachment 3311068
> 
> 
> DTM On
> 
> View attachment 3311069
> 
> 
> DTM Off
> 
> View attachment 3311070
> 
> 
> DTM On
> 
> View attachment 3311071
> 
> 
> 
> Then I tried YcbCr vs RGB... And RGB shifts the whole range a tad brighter. DTM only, when DTM is off, black is fine. YcbCr does not have this bug.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Level : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Level : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Level : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGB
> 
> View attachment 3311074
> 
> 
> YcbCr
> 
> View attachment 3311075
> 
> 
> RGB (Btw this shot needs a desat fix, its clipping the fur in the middle of frame no way to fix it currently, Kris found this)
> 
> View attachment 3311076
> 
> 
> YcbCr
> 
> View attachment 3311077
> 
> 
> RGB
> 
> View attachment 3311078
> 
> 
> YcbCr
> 
> View attachment 3311079


Is it possible to get ycbcr 422 on a PC? I have the RTX 3080ti but since lumagen is only hdmi 2.0, I don’t think it’s capable.


----------



## Javs

Mikesterz said:


> Is it possible to get ycbcr 422 on a PC? I have the RTX 3080ti but since lumagen is only hdmi 2.0, I don’t think it’s capable.


Yes NVIDIA can output that. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## sjschaff

Interesting article - TVs Are Too Good Now in particular, note the HDR comments


----------



## jrp

A comment on Game Mode:

For 60 Hertz in and out, in Game Mode, with Genlock on, 16:9 input to 16:9 output, the Radiance Pro video delay is fixed at about 3 mS.

This would also be true at 24 Hertz, but moot since gamers are going to run at 60 Hertz.

In game mode HDR DTM still works, but scene cut transfer-function changes are one frame late due to the 3 mS input to output time not allowing a full frame to be completely analyzed.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Javs said:


> Yes NVIDIA can output that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


I've never seen that option with my NVidia, but was the input (to the Lumagen) or the output the issue with the DTM bug you found?


----------



## Javs

Ian_Currie said:


> I've never seen that option with my NVidia, but was the input (to the Lumagen) or the output the issue with the DTM bug you found?


RGB output.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

Chicagobear1 said:


> What about the few of us that use the Lumagen pro for Gaming?


Do you actually change the output of the Lumagen to RGB for gaming? I doubt most of the people using it and gaming are going in and physically changing the output to RGB. I doubt most of the people using the Lumagen even know where to change the setting or even thought to try it.


----------



## Kris Deering

garyolearysteele said:


> There’s gonna be loads of Lumagen users who game or live with someone that does. Both Sony and JVC emphasise their gaming credentials in marketing for their new machines. After much testing I decided to limit the output of my consoles to SDR. Lumagen reports RGB in and 422 out, with the latest firmware the image looks good, I don’t use any game modes on the PJ or RP but don’t notice any lag at all, but I mostly play cinematic adventure games.


Exactly, most people are going to use the output of the Lumagen as is. Again, I doubt most people using a Lumagen even know where to change the setting.


----------



## Kris Deering

Also, I think the RGB thing would be PC specific. Consoles are outputting YCbCr by default last time I looked (I don't game).


----------



## Chicagobear1

Kris Deering said:


> Do you actually change the output of the Lumagen to RGB for gaming? I doubt most of the people using it and gaming are going in and physically changing the output to RGB. I doubt most of the people using the Lumagen even know where to change the setting or even thought to try it.


The gaming output is limited depending on what output card you have after the desired cms color space selection. After you select the desired color space 422 not available with 9ghz output card for gaming. If you try and force the output in hdmi format type it shows your output card is limit if using 9ghz for gaming is 420 out limited only. 18ghz gives all output options. As you say probably better letting the lumagen output the default. Yes i have tried all outputs available. My card is 18ghz output


----------



## Naiera

Kris Deering said:


> Also, I think the RGB thing would be PC specific. Consoles are outputting YCbCr by default last time I looked (I don't game).


I think my Xbox Series X is actually outputting RGB these days. Not sure why; I basically let it set itself up on the 18GHz input it's using now.


----------



## bosler.bruce

since a 5244 only has one video output, would it affect the video by adding an HDFury like this one so I can have 2 screens hooked up at once, or would it be better to switch the HDMI cables when I want to switch monitors? I will only use one at a time. Or can someone recommend a good quality switch if that is a better way to go for the sake of convenience rather than switching cables if the splitter is not a good idea... thanks


----------



## Erod

Anything being worked on to improve motion interpolation further?


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> Anything being worked on to improve motion interpolation further?



Lumagen doesn't do motion interpolation. That is typically done in the display.


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## jrp

bosler.bruce said:


> since a 5244 only has one video output, would it affect the video by adding an HDFury like this one so I can have 2 screens hooked up at once, or would it be better to switch the HDMI cables when I want to switch monitors? I will only use one at a time. Or can someone recommend a good quality switch if that is a better way to go for the sake of convenience rather than switching cables if the splitter is not a good idea... thanks


One possible solution:

Both outputs on the 5244 can have video. For output 1, which by default is audio only, go into the output->Output Setup->2D menu, select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for Input modes, and then change Output 1 (The digit 1 under the word Enable at the far right) to "B" for both. Press OK, then EXIT, then do a Save.

Output 1 is limited to 9 GHz, but as I have said due to the excellent dither on the Pro output I do not see any difference for 4k60 HDR between 9 GHz (4:2:0 at 8-bit) or 18 GHz (4:2:2 at 12-bit) even standing a foot from our 14' screen.

Then you can send Output 1 to the audio processor and use the video output of the audio processor to the second screen. Use Output 2 as you are now.


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## Mikesterz

Looks like the only way I can get ycbcr 422 to work is if I don’t use a custom resolution. I like to play games in widescreen 3840x1620 but my projector is 4k. Not sure if there’s a workaround. It doesn’t seem to be an issue with the Lumagen though. And I’m not sure what I’m missing out on by staying with RGB.


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## DigitalAV

Pretty sure the PS5 defaults to output RGB but indeed I keep my LRP outputting the recommended YCbCr 422 & it looks good to me


----------



## bosler.bruce

jrp said:


> One possible solution:
> 
> Both outputs on the 5244 can have video. For output 1, which by default is audio only, go into the output->Output Setup->2D menu, select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for Input modes, and then change Output 1 (The digit 1 under the word Enable at the far right) to "B" for both. Press OK, then EXIT, then do a Save.


Perfect... I just ordered my 5244 which should be here next week (I assumed you shipped it 

Plan is 
... for movies/TV use both outputs.. send video only to JVC NZ8 and audio separately to Trinnov.
... for Apple Music from Apple TV or Blu-ray (Beatles Atmos for example) and DVD-A discs that are audio only I still need video so I can see the menus, so sending video and audio to the Trinnov and having a small monitor hooked to the Trinnov so I can see the menus will be ideal, which is how I do it now. 

Thanks !!!


----------



## Technology3456

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen doesn't do motion interpolation. That is typically done in the display.


Is it possible Lumagen could add this in the future? This is the one major feature I care about that has been announced for madvr Envy but not for Lumagen. Displays don't generally have the processing power to do motion interpolation at the quality that a dedicated VP is able to.


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## Naiera

Motion interpolation is more or less the antithesis of what something like the LRP is made for. Then again, they do have Darbee, so I guess there's a chance...


----------



## jrp

Technology3456 said:


> Is it possible Lumagen could add this in the future? This is the one major feature I care about that has been announced for madvr Envy but not for Lumagen. Displays don't generally have the processing power to do motion interpolation at the quality that a dedicated VP is able to.


This is the first feature I tell people to turn off. I consider it a demo only feature. That is you can do nice demos with it but it fails on normal video material.

In many cases when people call saying their video does not look good, after I have them disable frame interpolation they say, "Oh! That's better."

In any case we will not be implementing frame interpolation in the Radiance Pro.


----------



## Kurvenal

bosler.bruce said:


> Perfect... I just ordered my 5244 which should be here next week (I assumed you shipped it
> 
> Plan is
> ... for movies/TV use both outputs.. send video only to JVC NZ8 and audio separately to Trinnov.
> ... for Apple Music from Apple TV or Blu-ray (Beatles Atmos for example) and DVD-A discs that are audio only I still need video so I can see the menus, so sending video and audio to the Trinnov and having a small monitor hooked to the Trinnov so I can see the menus will be ideal, which is how I do it now.
> 
> Thanks !!!


FYI, you do not need a video display to control Apple Music on your Apple TV — you can use any iOS device instead. I have my control system configured with a menu of Audio Only options including Apple Music and Blu-ray Audio. Assuming the ATV is selected as the source, you then need to open Apple Music on an iOS device. Swipe down from the top right corner of your device screen to access the Control Center and select the Remote icon. Hit the center of the Remote screen area to start controlling the ATV, then if you go back to Apple Music you will see the name of the ATV showing in the Now Playing area and any music that you select from there will play through the Radiance Pro and your theater system. 

FYI, PureAudio Blu-ray immersive music discs are also designed to be controlled with the Blu-ray remote only (i.e. no video at all), although unlike with Apple Music you do not get any visual feedback to confirm track selection.


----------



## bosler.bruce

you are correct , but it is so much easier to control an Apple TV with a display. why would you not want to? and you can't switch to Tidal or any of the other apps using Apple Music

And agreed, you can use the Blu-ray remote but you have no idea what you are doing. You can't select the audio format , for instance between Atmos and Auro3D

So... the easiest way, and really the only practical way IMHO is to have a display. Thanks for the feedback


----------



## Erod

jrp said:


> This is the first feature I tell people to turn off. I consider it a demo only feature. That is you can do nice demos with it but it fails on normal video material.
> 
> In many cases when people call saying their video does not look good, after I have them disable frame interpolation they say, "Oh! That's better."
> 
> In any case we will not be implementing frame interpolation in the Radiance Pro.


That was the case for every display I ever had until the JVC 3000. The low CMD setting works well and doesn't introduce SOE, which I can't stand. Without it, there is just too much motion judder in a panning image. Dizzying.


----------



## [email protected]

patcub said:


> I just setup my Radiance Pro 4242-18G and it is working great apart from one issue I’ve noticed in HDR10 movies. I’m guessing it has something to do with my HDR settings, but I’ve changed my max light to different values and it still happens. I’ve attached a picture of what I am seeing (this is from avengers endgame but I’ve seen it happen in several movies). It appears to happen when an extra bright object is on the screen. In this example it is a bright star and it has this purple/ blue pixelated discoloration in it. It happens for a second or two but is very distracting, otherwise I’m loving everything about the Lumagen.
> 
> Can someone help me figure out how to get rid of this issue? Thanks!


Hi, folks!
I saw the simlar problem with Sony 790 & 5348 when playing HDR10 titles. Any idea how to fix this issue? Thanks.


----------



## jrp

patcub said:


> I just setup my Radiance Pro 4242-18G and it is working great apart from one issue I’ve noticed in HDR10 movies. I’m guessing it has something to do with my HDR settings, but I’ve changed my max light to different values and it still happens. I’ve attached a picture of what I am seeing (this is from avengers endgame but I’ve seen it happen in several movies). It appears to happen when an extra bright object is on the screen. In this example it is a bright star and it has this purple/ blue pixelated discoloration in it. It happens for a second or two but is very distracting, otherwise I’m loving everything about the Lumagen.
> 
> Can someone help me figure out how to get rid of this issue? Thanks!


I can check them in the Lumagen Demo Theater if you give me the movie/program and timestamps.


----------



## acmcool

Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


----------



## Des511

acmcool said:


> Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


Did you notice all these bugs before Javs posted his findings?


----------



## bosler.bruce

acmcool said:


> Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


Are they really "bugs" or could it be that Javs is cherry picking extreme examples that are very difficult to process and nit-picking at these that don't really matter for the vast majority of movies?

I would ask... Are you disappointed in the images on your screen? 

just a thought... I'm no expert, but if you are happy with what the Lumagen is doing why do you care so much about a few examples of frames from a few movies?


----------



## acmcool

bosler.bruce said:


> Are they really "bugs" or could it be that Javs is cherry picking extreme examples that are very difficult to process and nit-picking at these that don't really matter for the vast majority of movies?
> 
> I would ask... Are you disappointed in the images on your screen?
> 
> just a thought... I'm no expert, but if you are happy with what the Lumagen is doing why do you care so much about a few examples of frames from a few movies?


Honestly I a newbie at dtm. Don’t understand much about video..are these really edge cases that i can just not worry about it?


----------



## Clark Burk

acmcool said:


> Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


I’m sure you know Lumagen is always seeking to make improvements. I’m really liking the 5348 I got from you. It’s a tough decision between Lumagen and Envy but one that you really can’t make a bad choice. Both are great units. Wishing you the best in your decision.


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

acmcool said:


> Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


Hate to break it to you but MadVR and the Envy also have a lot of bugs. All video equipment do. Whether you see them, or they affect your use, is the part that you need to worry about.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

A lot of people forget, Madvr went through all this a while ago. They had similar issues and eventually resolved them. Will be the same here.


----------



## Kurvenal

bosler.bruce said:


> you are correct , but it is so much easier to control an Apple TV with a display. why would you not want to? and you can't switch to Tidal or any of the other apps using Apple Music
> 
> And agreed, you can use the Blu-ray remote but you have no idea what you are doing. You can't select the audio format , for instance between Atmos and Auro3D
> 
> So... the easiest way, and really the only practical way IMHO is to have a display. Thanks for the feedback


This is obviously a matter of individual preference — I prefer listening to music with minimum distractions, eg. a video display. 

FYI, the PureAudio Blu-ray format uses the color buttons on the remote to select audio format (Atmos = Green). I just use the Trinnov VNC on my iOS device to verify that I am playing the format that I intended to select.


----------



## Javs

bosler.bruce said:


> Are they really "bugs" or could it be that Javs is cherry picking extreme examples that are very difficult to process and nit-picking at these that don't really matter for the vast majority of movies?
> 
> I would ask... Are you disappointed in the images on your screen?
> 
> just a thought... I'm no expert, but if you are happy with what the Lumagen is doing why do you care so much about a few examples of frames from a few movies?


Yes they are bugs, and YES I am picking difficult scenes!

For the most part it looks TOTALLY fine, you all know that because you own the Lumagen. But I have just been purposely trying to break DTM on MadVR for 4 years now relentlessly so I know how to do it here too. I could sit quiet and never tell them, that would be mean because they would potentially never fix it.


----------



## Karl Maga

Javs said:


> Yes they are bugs, and YES I am picking difficult scenes!
> 
> For the most part it looks TOTALLY fine, you all know that because you own the Lumagen. But I have just been purposely trying to break DTM on MadVR for 4 years now relentlessly so I know how to do it here too. I could sit quiet and never tell them, that would be mean because they would potentially never fix it.


And they are both better on account of your efforts. Well done, and thanks.


----------



## HTTR17

I appreciate javs feedback plus lumagen looking and willing to improve from these tests. Dtm is way over my head and I realize I'd most likely never notice these extreme cases. 

Sharpness I think I can see more as it's more in your face so fund the other thread with the comparison interesting too. Even though the back and forth from brand loyalty does get one my nerves but oh well. I'm happy with lumagen and wish madvr owners the best too.


----------



## acmcool

Aaron Toulmin said:


> A lot of people forget, Madvr went through all this a while ago. They had similar issues and eventually resolved them. Will be the same here.


That makes me feel better..


----------



## gattorodolfo

hello, at the weekend I pick up my new jvc nz9, I ask you for help, before I had the sony 870 and I saw the hdr in sdr 2020 via the radiance pro. Now with jvc that I don't know very well should I put a hdr flag on radiance pro ?. I await your answers and thanks


----------



## DougAP

acmcool said:


> Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


I doubt I'm the only one, but @Javs 's findings and @jrp 's response have actually made me _much happier _with my LRP. 

As Javs notes, he's stress testing LRP DTM by hitting it with analytical processes he's honed with madVR. So far the findings have been: the LRP is very good, but there's performance left on the table. There were two potential responses to that: either be combative and try to undermine Javs' analysis, or be collaborative, try to solve the issues together and ultimately improve the product. Lumagen unambiguously chose the latter, and they changed their forward work plan in response to the views of customers.

For me, that proves the team behind the LRP are all about continuous improvement and commitment to owners. I find this hugely reassuring. It underlines that the LRP in my rack will not only continue to do a great job, but will get incrementally better with time, as the Lumagen team extract as much performance as they can out of it. There are very few manufacturers that take this approach (Trinnov comes to mind as another one), and it's a great thing to buy into.


----------



## Chicagobear1

I'm sure Lumagen always strive to improve. I think sometimes these changes in firmware take much longer than expected and can get behind on what they want. I definitely sound's like both owners of these top of the line video processor's are full of passion and dedication. It's not just a business for them It's a hobby.

Javs your dedication and results show the same passion top work by everyone.


----------



## EVH78

@Jim 
Will you revisit scaling algorithms once you are done with the new pipeline enhancements?


----------



## Craig Peer

DougAP said:


> I doubt I'm the only one, but @Javs 's findings and @jrp 's response have actually made me _much happier _with my LRP.
> 
> As Javs notes, he's stress testing LRP DTM by hitting it with analytical processes he's honed with madVR. So far the findings have been: the LRP is very good, but there's performance left on the table. There were two potential responses to that: either be combative and try to undermine Javs' analysis, or be collaborative, try to solve the issues together and ultimately improve the product. Lumagen unambiguously chose the latter, and they changed their forward work plan in response to the views of customers.
> 
> For me, that proves the team behind the LRP are all about continuous improvement and commitment to owners. I find this hugely reassuring. It underlines that the LRP in my rack will not only continue to do a great job, but will get incrementally better with time, as the Lumagen team extract as much performance as they can out of it. There are very few manufacturers that take this approach (Trinnov comes to mind as another one), and it's a great thing to buy into.


Yup - the picture looks just as good today as it did last week, and it will only get better over time. The improvements to the Radiance Pro over the last 3 1/2 years have been amazing so far.


----------



## Kris Deering

The Lumagen was not even designed for HDR tone mapping when it was released. It wasn't even something they considered. Look at the list of updates Lumagen has been releasing since 2015 on this product. They have gone out of their way to constantly try to improve the product over the years based on owner feedback and internal testing. They've added features that normally would be a completely new model, not a firmware update (DTM). Look back a week or two ago, NO ONE was on this thread complaining about tone mapping or scaling. Does that mean they can't be improved? Of course not! People have always found bugs or issues and Lumagen have addressed anything they could. DTM is something that was going to be addressed already, Jim and I have talked about shortcomings for well over a year with some content, the pipeline was the priority for quite a few reasons. When that is finished the focus can shift to improving other parts of the processing. Lumagen has been supporting their products for two decades in ways that few companies ever have. Anyone that thinks the Lumagen won't continue to try and improve their product obviously hasn't been paying any attention or has a really short memory. What Lumagen hasn't done is close shop like so many video processors before them (DVDO, Faroudja, S&W and more) because they have continued to delivery excellent products with excellent support.


----------



## gattorodolfo

no one helps me ? :

hello, at the weekend I pick up my new jvc nz9, I ask you for help, before I had the sony 870 and I saw the hdr in sdr 2020 via the radiance pro. Now with jvc that I don't know very well should I put a hdr flag on radiance pro ?. I await your answers and thanks


----------



## sjschaff

gattorodolfo said:


> no one helps me ? :
> 
> hello, at the weekend I pick up my new jvc nz9, I ask you for help, before I had the sony 870 and I saw the hdr in sdr 2020 via the radiance pro. Now with jvc that I don't know very well should I put a hdr flag on radiance pro ?. I await your answers and thanks


I would get the person who did your calibration to assist with the new projector and LRP for proper setup. If you did this yourself, best of luck. You've jumped into the deep end of the pool.


----------



## EVH78

@gattorodolfo:

I have gone the same exact path from the the 870ES to the NZ9. I did not need to change any settings but the tone mapping. Hope that helps!


----------



## Mikesterz

acmcool said:


> Lumagen seems to have to lots of bugs compared to madvr based on findings by Javs...is there plan to resolve them? I own a 5348 and bit disappointed to see so many bugs..


Most of my bugs went away after I had my projector and lumagen calibrated by a professional. The only thing that is still happening sometimes is loss of audio for a few seconds every hour or so from my Apple TV 4K input. I tried replacing the hdmi cable but it still happens. I may place the Apple TV onto a different input and see what happens. 

When I changed audio format from common to pass back it solved the issue but took away surround sound formats so that’s not an option.

Also, my understanding is only the lumagen can do dtm for pc gaming. I don’t think MadVR does this at the moment. At least not with the do it yourself version of it. So that’s a big benefit for the lumagen. Unfortunately you’re still stuck with 60 fps due to hdmi 2.0.


----------



## MDesigns

Mikesterz said:


> Also, my understanding is only the lumagen can do dtm for pc gaming. I don’t think MadVR does this at the moment. At least not with the do it yourself version of it. So that’s a big benefit for the lumagen. Unfortunately you’re still stuck with 60 fps due to hdmi 2.0.


Games are rendered in real time so there should be a possibility to adjust the hdr output in that end without any external dtm. Other possibility would be to just use sdr with games. Can you really see a benefit in games with hdr vs sdr? You could bypass the Lumagen for games and go 4k120 if the projector supports it.


----------



## jrp

I want to address some things here since I refuse to post to the so-called comparison thread.

The Lumagen NoRing™ scaling algorithm is absolutely _not_ based on the Lanczos resampling algorithm. I do take it as a complement that the Lumagen is so good it is thought to be the Lanczos resampling algorithm.

The Lumagen scaling algorithm does not add visible ringing. And certainly not at viewing distance where all such analysis should be done. Several people checked into this and they cannot reproduce such ringing.

The edge enhancement in the Lumagen is based on a public domain edge enhancement algorithm, and if you turn it up too much you will create ringing. If you do not want any ringing added turn off the edge enhancement and turn off the Darbee enhancement.

Please note that we appreciate Javs analysis on our current release and are working to address the things he has found with pixel peeping, and with the saturation plots. It is unfortunate that those with little video experience overreact to the results instead of knowing these are corner cases and Lumagen will address them consistent with our design goals for the Radiance Pro.

That said, I must once again say that the _only_ place for a _consumer_ to do a final image quality analysis is at viewing distance. Of course, it is fine to look at pixel peeping to find things to look for at viewing distance. However, no one can rationally argue against that from a consumer’s perspective “if you cannot see it at viewing distance, it is moot.” One example is Chroma shift. It was stated that the Radiance Pro has a ¼-pixel Chroma shift. Since for 4k at viewing distance (I use 1X screen width) Luma resolution is already below human perception, and Chroma has about 1/9 the resolution (approximately 1/3 in each direction) in the human vision system, a ¼-pixel Chroma shift is moot at viewing distance. Please do not get me wrong. Patrick is looking to see if there is indeed a ¼-pixel Chroma shift, and if there is, we will work to correct it. As this implies, pixel-peeping is informative for the designers doing the coding. It is just not a valid way for consumers to make their final judgement on image quality.

Javs posted that the Dyn Pad in the Radiance Pro means that the entire range of the projector is not used unless the scene gets significantly brighter later in the scene. While it looks like the dynamic pad is too much in the mountain scene of “The Mountain Between Us” the padding above the measured maximum for the first frame of the scene is intentional to help prevent clipping while maintaining a constant transfer function for the scene, while having some adaptation that is not perceived. I have looked at the other scenes and IMO they do not appear too dark since the human iris adapts to the scene brightness as chosen by the DTM transfer function for that scene.

If DTM uses the entire data range from the first, or first few, frames of the scene, and the scene gets a lot brighter later, then one of two things must happen: The scene can clip the brighter elements, or the transfer function can be changed making the background darker in a noticeable way. We chose more pad to not need to change the transfer function which would make the scene background darker in a way that people notice.

Based on feedback some want the entire range used as measured at the start of the scene. This is a personal preference item and one we will address in a future release. Currently Dyn Pad = 1 has almost no pad in the transfer function, but will clip if a scene gets a lot brighter due to the limit we set on the intra-scene adaptation speed. I am talking to Patrick about allowing the intra-scene adaptation to be faster than we currently allow when the Dyn Pad = 1. Then as the Dyn Pad value is increased, the Radiance Pro DTM will add more headroom padding, and slow down the adaptation.

Concerning the saturated colors in the scenes shown by Javs: Our approach has been to allow some clipping to make sure to have most scenes be as bright as possible, while still leaving some headroom in case the scene gets a lot brighter. As the above paragraph discusses, this is a tough balance to achieve. We have known for well over a year we needed to work on the DTM for both dynamic-pad and desaturation. So, not new news. We chose instead to work on the pipeline enhancements. Based on feedback, this was an excellent choice.

We will look at the DTM scenes Javs posted and work to improve them. However, they are not common and not likely to jump out at you while you are watching the movie. With the current release you can mitigate these by increasing Max Light. With appropriate settings, I do not think these scenes are a significant issue even with the current release. Still we plan to continue the DTM work now that the pipeline enhancements are complete.

One issue with the brouhaha concerning DTM is it forces us to change priorities back to DTM efforts. We are also working to correct the couple pixel scaling issues Javs reported. Note: The two main scaling issues Javs has pointed out are in the right-most pixel column, and the bottom-most pixel row. Neither of these would even be visible on a projected image due to projector overscan.

Working on DTM is certainly not a bad choice as top priority. However, it delays other work, such as faster auto-aspect, and PiP/PoP work. So, with apologies to the few wanting PiP/PoP, we will be working on fixing the couple of edge case pixel issues Javs found pixel-peeping, and improving DTM, as our top priorities.


----------



## Javs

If you want me to stop reporting bugs just say it. I don't mind keeping it to myself and just post what I find elsewhere. 

I really don't mind it saves me emailing them.

The so called comparison thread? Geez.

Anyway, I'm out for a while.


----------



## jrp

Mikesterz said:


> Most of my bugs went away after I had my projector and lumagen calibrated by a professional. The only thing that is still happening sometimes is loss of audio for a few seconds every hour or so from my Apple TV 4K input. I tried replacing the hdmi cable but it still happens. I may place the Apple TV onto a different input and see what happens. ...


Apple is now recommend a 48 GHz passive HDMI cable on the AppleTV output (or so I have heard). I recommend always using a 3 meter HDMI cable since it has proven to have the optimal amount of cable attenuation to mitigate HDMI cable equalization at 4k. Putting these together I recommend the Tributaries 3 meter UHDM 48 GHz HDMI cable for the output of the AppleTV and it would be an excellent choice (along with the Tributaries UHDP 18 GHz passive) for all your passive HDMI cable connections.

Note there are other excellent HDMI cable brands (AVPro, Metra) as well.

If you continue to have audio dropouts, please email lumagen.com support and we can start a dialog.


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> If you want me to stop reporting bugs just say it. I don't mind keeping it to myself and just post what I find elsewhere.
> 
> I really don't mind it saves me emailing them.
> 
> The so called comparison thread? Geez.
> 
> Anyway, I'm out for a while.


You are not the issue on the comparison thread I was alluding to. As I said I appreciate your feedback posts. You can post them or email them.

Keep the feedback coming please.


----------



## Craig Peer

jrp said:


> I want to address some things here since I refuse to post to the so-called comparison thread.
> 
> The Lumagen NoRing™ scaling algorithm is absolutely _not_ based on the Lanczos resampling algorithm. I do take it as a complement that the Lumagen is so good it is thought to be the Lanczos resampling algorithm.
> 
> The Lumagen scaling algorithm does not add visible ringing. And certainly not at viewing distance where all such analysis should be done. Several people checked into this and they cannot reproduce such ringing.
> 
> The edge enhancement in the Lumagen is based on a public domain edge enhancement algorithm, and if you turn it up too much you will create ringing. If you do not want any ringing added turn off the edge enhancement and turn off the Darbee enhancement.
> 
> Please note that we appreciate Javs analysis on our current release and are working to address the things he has found with pixel peeping, and with the saturation plots. It is unfortunate that those with little video experience overreact to the results instead of knowing these are corner cases and Lumagen will address them consistent with our design goals for the Radiance Pro.
> 
> That said, I must once again say that the _only_ place for a _consumer_ to do a final image quality analysis is at viewing distance. Of course, it is fine to look at pixel peeping to find things to look for at viewing distance. However, no one can rationally argue against that from a consumer’s perspective “if you cannot see it at viewing distance, it is moot.” One example is Chroma shift. It was stated that the Radiance Pro has a ¼-pixel Chroma shift. Since for 4k at viewing distance (I use 1X screen width) Luma resolution is already below human perception, and Chroma has about 1/9 the resolution (approximately 1/3 in each direction) in the human vision system, a ¼-pixel Chroma shift is moot at viewing distance. Please do not get me wrong. Patrick is looking to see if there is indeed a ¼-pixel Chroma shift, and if there is, we will work to correct it. As this implies, pixel-peeping is informative for the designers doing the coding. It is just not a valid way for consumers to make their final judgement on image quality.
> 
> Javs posted that the Dyn Pad in the Radiance Pro means that the entire range of the projector is not used unless the scene gets significantly brighter later in the scene. While it looks like the dynamic pad is too much in the mountain scene of “The Mountain Between Us” the padding above the measured maximum for the first frame of the scene is intentional to help prevent clipping while maintaining a constant transfer function for the scene, while having some adaptation that is not perceived. I have looked at the other scenes and IMO they do not appear too dark since the human iris adapts to the scene brightness as chosen by the DTM transfer function for that scene.
> 
> If DTM uses the entire data range from the first, or first few, frames of the scene, and the scene gets a lot brighter later, then one of two things must happen: The scene can clip the brighter elements, or the transfer function can be changed making the background darker in a noticeable way. We chose more pad to not need to change the transfer function which would make the scene background darker in a way that people notice.
> 
> Based on feedback some want the entire range used as measured at the start of the scene. This is a personal preference item and one we will address in a future release. Currently Dyn Pad = 1 has almost no pad in the transfer function, but will clip if a scene gets a lot brighter due to the limit we set on the intra-scene adaptation speed. I am talking to Patrick about allowing the intra-scene adaptation to be faster than we currently allow when the Dyn Pad = 1. Then as the Dyn Pad value is increased, the Radiance Pro DTM will add more headroom padding, and slow down the adaptation.
> 
> Concerning the saturated colors in the scenes shown by Javs: Our approach has been to allow some clipping to make sure to have most scenes be as bright as possible, while still leaving some headroom in case the scene gets a lot brighter. As the above paragraph discusses, this is a tough balance to achieve. We have known for well over a year we needed to work on the DTM for both dynamic-pad and desaturation. So, not new news. We chose instead to work on the pipeline enhancements. Based on feedback, this was an excellent choice.
> 
> We will look at the DTM scenes Javs posted and work to improve them. However, they are not common and not likely to jump out at you while you are watching the movie. With the current release you can mitigate these by increasing Max Light. With appropriate settings, I do not think these scenes are a significant issue even with the current release. Still we plan to continue the DTM work now that the pipeline enhancements are complete.
> 
> One issue with the brouhaha concerning DTM is it forces us to change priorities back to DTM efforts. We are also working to correct the couple pixel scaling issues Javs reported. Note: The two main scaling issues Javs has pointed out are in the right-most pixel column, and the bottom-most pixel row. Neither of these would even be visible on a projected image due to projector overscan.
> 
> Working on DTM is certainly not a bad choice as top priority. However, it delays other work, such as faster auto-aspect, and PiP/PoP work. So, with apologies to the few wanting PiP/PoP, we will be working on fixing the couple of edge case pixel issues Javs found pixel-peeping, and improving DTM, as our top priorities.


Thanks Jim - and Patrick, for all your hard work. Every firmware update and improvement means a better picture in the future - not that I really have any complaints right now.


----------



## bosler.bruce

Javs said:


> If you want me to stop reporting bugs just say it. I don't mind keeping it to myself and just post what I find elsewhere.


personally, I think it is a good thing that someone such as yourself reports back to Jim what you find. I'm for anything that makes the product better. That said, posting them on this thread serves no useful purpose for probably the 99% of us who don't have any idea what any of those graphs mean. I can skip through them if that's the best way to get it back to Jim, but for most of us it is just wasted bandwidth since we don't have a clue what they are actually telling you and Jim and the few who understand them.


----------



## ckgolf

Faster auto-aspect would be nice to have sooner than later. I recently watched Everything Everywhere All at Once and it has variable aspect ratios. It was an excellent movie but the aspect control was lagging big time on my 2.40 screen. I’d like to watch it again with some friends but not until it’s faster.
Also, is it normal for it not to detect the framing on dark scenes? I watched the now infamous 1917 stairway clip and when I skipped to that chapter it stayed 16x9 for a long time, I had to skip back a chapter for the change to 2.40 then skip ahead so that the auto aspect picked it up at 2.40.


----------



## fatherom

Javs said:


> If you want me to stop reporting bugs just say it. I don't mind keeping it to myself and just post what I find elsewhere.
> 
> I really don't mind it saves me emailing them.
> 
> The so called comparison thread? Geez.
> 
> Anyway, I'm out for a while.


Definitely don’t stop. Jim already responded saying you’re not who he was referring to.


----------



## Kris Deering

ckgolf said:


> Faster auto-aspect would be nice to have sooner than later. I recently watched Everything Everywhere All at Once and it has variable aspect ratios. It was an excellent movie but the aspect control was lagging big time on my 2.40 screen. I’d like to watch it again with some friends but not until it’s faster.
> Also, is it normal for it not to detect the framing on dark scenes? I watched the now infamous 1917 stairway clip and when I skipped to that chapter it stayed 16x9 for a long time, I had to skip back a chapter for the change to 2.40 then skip ahead so that the auto aspect picked it up at 2.40.


Everything Everywhere... movie is DESIGNED to be watched on a 16x9 screen. You can tell by the way they do the fades (they are not cuts to different aspect ratios). So if you want to watch it the way it was intended to be seen, you would lock the aspect at 16x9. These are not cases where faster aspect ratio switching is helping you, it was specifically crafted for a specific viewing circumstance that you do not have. The Radiance allows you to watch this perfectly with no issues at all for how it was intended.

The Radiance has ZERO information being fed to it that tells it what the aspect ratio is. It has to detect this through active pixel scanning. So if you have a film that is scope but there is no delineation of the black bars to detect because the frame is mostly black, there is absolutely ZERO way to know it is a scope film until there is clearly an edge to detect. This would be the case with any video processor. The only way a black out like that may call itself out is if the black floor is raised compared to the black bars. So in your case it sounds like you bounced to a scene where it detected the edge and transitioned vs where you started. Once it locks to an aspect, it won't change again until it sees something that would clearly show it is not in that aspect ratio. The other thing that can trip this up is any OSD indicators from the output device. So if you press play or chapter skip, the player may have some random info box or symbol it puts up in a corner or something and this will trip up the Radiance because it sees information outside of a frame. I know on my Oppo I have the OSD information turned off completely. This eliminates the chances of this happening and also some random icon screwing up the tone mapping (the Lumagen cannot tell if the icon is from a player or the content, again it has ZERO information to work with other than the video itself).


----------



## Craig Peer

ckgolf said:


> Faster auto-aspect would be nice to have sooner than later. I recently watched Everything Everywhere All at Once and it has variable aspect ratios. It was an excellent movie but the aspect control was lagging big time on my 2.40 screen. I’d like to watch it again with some friends but not until it’s faster.
> Also, is it normal for it not to detect the framing on dark scenes? I watched the now infamous 1917 stairway clip and when I skipped to that chapter it stayed 16x9 for a long time, I had to skip back a chapter for the change to 2.40 then skip ahead so that the auto aspect picked it up at 2.40.


 Everything Everywhere All At Once, I just watched it on my 16:9 screen, but I have that option. Most don't.

Edit - I see Kris beat me to the E. E. All At Once comment.


----------



## alv

I don't have a widescreen with moveable edges. Are the motors on the screens fast enough that "instant" changes are possible? What is the limitation of moving the frame, the LRP or the motor? From the discussion the frame change seems faster than I would imagine.


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> Apple is now recommend a 48 GHz passive HDMI cable on the AppleTV output (or so I have heard). I recommend always using a 3 meter HDMI cable since it has proven to have the optimal amount of cable attenuation to mitigate HDMI cable equalization at 4k. Putting these together I recommend the Tributaries 3 meter UHDM 48 GHz HDMI cable for the output of the AppleTV and it would be an excellent choice (along with the Tributaries UHDP 18 GHz passive) for all your passive HDMI cable connections.


Ordered... even though I don't have issues 😀
The next Apple TV is rumored be HDMI 2.1 etc... better get ready for it..


----------



## NinjaTypeR

May I just ask if others are seeing the low-level noise and instability with Apple TV 4K’s YCbCr output in SDR? It’s very obvious to me on an X series JVC and it looks light light instability with some content. When pixel-peeping, it looks like badly implemented dither in darker areas of the picture
It was very obvious to me on Tron Legacy but it shows up with other content dependent on scene.
Switching to RGB fixes the issue for me, so that’s the only output mode I now use on the Apple TV for SDR. I have a feeling the Apple TV is converting SDR to RGB internally, but I could be wrong.
HDR doesn’t seem to be affected.

Others have confirmed the instability with measurements when testing the Apple TV as a pattern generator. So this instability may still be there in RGB but it is visually much reduced for actual content compared toYCbCr, at least in my setup

Anyway, I will appreciate a fix for RBG in / out for the above reason. Thx.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

NinjaTypeR said:


> May I just ask if others are seeing the low-level noise and instability with Apple TV 4K’s YCbCr output in SDR? It’s very obvious to me on an X series JVC and it looks light light instability with some content. When pixel-peeping, it looks like badly implemented dither in darker areas of the picture
> It was very obvious to me on Tron Legacy but it shows up with other content dependent on scene.
> Switching to RGB fixes the issue for me, so that’s the only output mode I now use on the Apple TV for SDR. I have a feeling the Apple TV is converting SDR to RGB internally, but I could be wrong.
> HDR doesn’t seem to be affected.
> 
> Others have confirmed the instability with measurements when testing the Apple TV as a pattern generator. So this instability may still be there in RGB but it is visually much reduced for actual content compared toYCbCr, at least in my setup
> 
> Anyway, I will appreciate a fix for RBG in / out for the above reason. Thx.


I have no issues with YCBR output into my lumagen on an x series jvc.


----------



## Mikesterz

MDesigns said:


> Games are rendered in real time so there should be a possibility to adjust the hdr output in that end without any external dtm. Other possibility would be to just use sdr with games. Can you really see a benefit in games with hdr vs sdr? You could bypass the Lumagen for games and go 4k120 if the projector supports it.


I turned off dtm on the lumagen and while the image was still great it still didn’t come close to the wow factor that dtm brings to gaming. Being able to turn it on and off right away you can’t help but see the difference.


----------



## riddle

I really like how Lumagen works with my PS5. It is much better than on the JVC DTM. I wish Lumagen had support for play games on XBOX at 1440p with 120Hz.


----------



## gattorodolfo

EVH78 said:


> @gattorodolfo:
> 
> I have gone the same exact path from the the 870ES to the NZ9. I did not need to change any settings but the tone mapping. Hope that helps!


then you go automatically in sdr bt 2020 (hdr) as in the 870, good very good. what differences did you notice between the 2 projectors?
and thanks for the reply


----------



## garyolearysteele

Mikesterz said:


> I turned off dtm on the lumagen and while the image was still great it still didn’t come close to the wow factor that dtm brings to gaming. Being able to turn it on and off right away you can’t help but see the difference.


Disabling DTM I would have expect the image to lose some life, just as it does when using a PJ to watch movies with a HDR signal and a static tone map. I tested the Xbox series X and PS5 over many hours with different games and found the best option (imo) was to disable HDR console and output a native 4K SDR. The beauty of gaming is we don’t have to deal with the mess that is HDR with projectors, we can nativity output SDR without losing resolution. 

Good comparison “scenes” to see how they compare are;

The Quarry: the opening scene pans through a dark forest and there is a lot of low night near black detail. For me with HDR+DTM a lot of the detail is crushed, a scene that pans over the road also has some artifacts not seen with SDR. It’s possible to alter the in game HDR settings which allows max nits to be configured, some detail can be recovered at the expense or raised blacks, but SDR still looks better and Is more stable in other areas.

Resident Evil Village: traversing from the bright snowy area outside to inside the castle. When going into castle the scene remains dark and doesn’t recover naturally, it’s unplayable for a while.

Last of Us part 2: there are several scenes that cause DTM issues. When leaving a building, the creator uses an effect where the scene goes bright to emulate your eyes adjusting.. this causes clipping in some cases and there are other cases where it’s similar to REVillage. In some scenes the sky also loses the bloom affect from the sun and instead a less bright version is shown where you see the outline of the sun perfectly, looks ok, but it’s not what it’s supposed to look like.

The Medium; There are several scenes that are supposed to be very dark when you’re in an abandoned school at night, when playing with DTM the blacks are very raised and you can see a load of detail that’s supposed to be hidden in shadows.

Some of the issues can be down to bad HDR implementations in games, there are some videos analysing it by HDTVTest and others. Also games can be torture tests for DTM that perhaps don’t correspond with what happens in movies. Maybe one movie in a thousand has a similar issue for one scene lasting a few seconds, with games that scene may remain a lot longer. 

SDR is still a focus for games since when people stream them they use SDR. Wide colour is seldom used and when it is I struggle to see a big difference, certainly compared to having native SDR gamma.

That’s not to say HDR games look bad, if you play sports games or maybe FPS where scene brightness doesn’t fluctuate hugely it’s unlikely to be immediately noticed (using Gears of War 5 as a test I couldn’t see much difference across many of the scenes in the game). Switching between an OLED and RP+PJ when playing cinematic games I can become apparent though.

Just my 2 cents, if you have The Quarry, fire up a new game and play the first 15 mins in HDR and SDR (or the Xbox series X demo), you’ll never go back


----------



## Chicagobear1

I agree i switch from SDR & DTM mostly SDR depending on the individual game. RGB out looks good as well not much in it actually. SDR & DTM switching is the way if you know what your looking for with gaming. Looks like there's a good few actually use the Lumagen for gaming. Definitely a good few in the UK i know that for sure.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> Apple is now recommend a 48 GHz passive HDMI cable on the AppleTV output (or so I have heard). I recommend always using a 3 meter HDMI cable since it has proven to have the optimal amount of cable attenuation to mitigate HDMI cable equalization at 4k. Putting these together I recommend the Tributaries 3 meter UHDM 48 GHz HDMI cable for the output of the AppleTV and it would be an excellent choice (along with the Tributaries UHDP 18 GHz passive) for all your passive HDMI cable connections.
> 
> Note there are other excellent HDMI cable brands (AVPro, Metra) as well.
> 
> If you continue to have audio dropouts, please email lumagen.com support and we can start a dialog.


@jrp , Jim,

Do you recommend the Tributaries UHDM Max 48G (Maximum Series - UHDM) or the non-Maximum series cable (UHD48)?

Thank you


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> @jrp , Jim,
> 
> Do you recommend the Tributaries UHDM Max 48G (Maximum Series - UHDM) or the non-Maximum series cable (UHD48)?
> 
> Thank you


I use the UHDM, but I have to believe the UHD48 (which I have never tested) is fine since it comes from Tributaries. The cost difference is not huge. I believe the mechanical will be slightly better with the UHDM and so is worth the additional cost. However, again I have not even seen a UHD48 cable and so this is speculation.

Sorry. Not the definitive answer you were looking for.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> I use the UHDM, but I have to believe the UHD48 (which I have never tested) is fine since it comes from Tributaries. The cost difference is not huge. I believe the mechanical will be slightly better with the UHDM and so is worth the additional cost. However, again I have not even seen a UHD48 cable and so this is speculation.
> 
> Sorry. Not the definitive answer you were looking for.


Ok, thank you


----------



## gerard1meehan

Greetings fellow Lumigenians. 

I recently upgraded my radiance 4444 to the 5348 and installed that in my dedicated theater room. I did hold on to my 4444 and have put that in my living room for my Sony OLED-A9G 77 in. When using the lumigen on an OLED TV what are some of the preferred settings? As the unit I'm using right now was calibrated for my projector. Max light and alike have to be a bit different.

I'm having someone come in and recalibrate both units. But in the meantime I'm sure I should change a few of the settings on the unit attached to the tv.


Thank you in advance and Happy viewing


----------



## bjorg

gerard1meehan said:


> Greetings fellow Lumigenians.
> 
> I recently upgraded my radiance 4444 to the 5348 and installed that in my dedicated theater room. I did hold on to my 4444 and have put that in my living room for my Sony OLED-A9G 77 in. When using the lumigen on an OLED TV what are some of the preferred settings? As the unit I'm using right now was calibrated for my projector. Max light and alike have to be a bit different.
> 
> I'm having someone come in and recalibrate both units. But in the meantime I'm sure I should change a few of the settings on the unit attached to the tv.
> 
> Thank you in advance and Happy viewing


I have an RP connected to my Sony video wall, which does 1,000 nits. I'll have to check the settings for it when I get back tomorrow. But I'm also curious what others have.


----------



## Woof Woof

Over in another discussion, I was asked to describe the differences between Lumagen’s Dynamic Tone Mapping with the way the projector or display handled HDR. 

Is there a button/configuration I could set up on the remote to toggle between Lumagen processing on and off? 

The alternative would be to disconnect the source and display from the Lumagen and then reconnect them via the HDR but that wouldn’t allow an instantaneous (or near instantaneous) switch


----------



## NinjaTypeR

So if people use the Apple TV 4K’s YCbCr output for SDR content, is it only my Apple TV that has incorrect colour output in that mode? It is measurably different if feeding patterns through it. I caught it because I noticed when I was comparing blu ray SDR versus Apple TV 4K’s output of the same movies. The colour errors are so gross that they are visible when viewed one after the other. Mind you I have very good colour memory.

RGB doesn’t have this issue. This along with the low-level noise introduced, I don’t use YCbCr on Apple TV anymore for SDR content. Of course it switches back for HDR which is fine.

My theory is that the Apple TV is doing double conversion from YCbCr to RGB then back to YCbCr when you force that output.

The low-level noise is not compression artefacts, or instability in the content either, but likely introduced by lack of precision in the double conversion. Again, the content looks more like the BluRay when not forcing YCbCr and the low-level noise goes away.

Anyway, I thought I’d say it in case it’s not only my unit otherwise it’s cruel to withhold it. I recommend people measure it, not just go on my word. Maybe it’s only my unit and I got unlucky. ;-)


----------



## DigitalAV

Woof Woof said:


> Over in another discussion, I was asked to describe the differences between Lumagen’s Dynamic Tone Mapping with the way the projector or display handled HDR.
> 
> Is there a button/configuration I could set up on the remote to toggle between Lumagen processing on and off?
> 
> The alternative would be to disconnect the source and display from the Lumagen and then reconnect them via the HDR but that wouldn’t allow an instantaneous (or near instantaneous) switch


Perhaps set up a second memory using a CMS that's passing through the HDR signal (outputting HDR2020) instead of converting to SDR


----------



## [email protected]

jrp said:


> I can check them in the Lumagen Demo Theater if you give me the movie/program and timestamps.


Hi Jim,

Sent an email yesterday. Pls advise what to do.


----------



## bobof

NinjaTypeR said:


> So if people use the Apple TV 4K’s YCbCr output for SDR content, is it only my Apple TV that has incorrect colour output in that mode? It is measurably different if feeding patterns through it. I caught it because I noticed when I was comparing blu ray SDR versus Apple TV 4K’s output of the same movies. The colour errors are so gross that they are visible when viewed one after the other. Mind you I have very good colour memory.
> 
> RGB doesn’t have this issue. This along with the low-level noise introduced, I don’t use YCbCr on Apple TV anymore for SDR content. Of course it switches back for HDR which is fine.
> 
> My theory is that the Apple TV is doing double conversion from YCbCr to RGB then back to YCbCr when you force that output.
> 
> The low-level noise is not compression artefacts, or instability in the content either, but likely introduced by lack of precision in the double conversion. Again, the content looks more like the BluRay when not forcing YCbCr and the low-level noise goes away.
> 
> Anyway, I thought I’d say it in case it’s not only my unit otherwise it’s cruel to withhold it. I recommend people measure it, not just go on my word. Maybe it’s only my unit and I got unlucky. ;-)


I think the ATV is well known to give a slightly wrong colours in YCrCb, it is covered in the following thread: The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread . If you have Lightspace or Colourspace you could choose to calibrate it through by using the AppleTV as a pattern generator instead of the Radiance, using a different 3DLUT. I've not tried to do it personally.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> I use the UHDM, but I have to believe the UHD48 (which I have never tested) is fine since it comes from Tributaries. The cost difference is not huge. I believe the mechanical will be slightly better with the UHDM and so is worth the additional cost. However, again I have not even seen a UHD48 cable and so this is speculation.
> 
> Sorry. Not the definitive answer you were looking for.


@jrp , Jim,

What is the longest passive cable run you recommend and would it be the "Tributaries UHDM Max 48G (Maximum Series - UHDM) ". Also what is the longest active cable run you would recommend and what brand/model?

Thank you again.


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> @jrp , Jim,
> 
> What is the longest passive cable run you recommend and would it be the "Tributaries UHDM Max 48G (Maximum Series - UHDM) ". Also what is the longest active cable run you would recommend and what brand/model?


For the Tributaries UHDP 18 GHz passive I recommend no more than 5 meters. The longest UHDM 48 GHz passive cable Tributaries sells is 3 meters. Not sure why but the Tributaries 48 GHz UHD48 can be up to 5 meters. For 18 GHz connections any of these cables should work well.

For 48 GHz passive HDMI cable I would recommend no more (and no less actually) than 3 meters so there is an optimum amount of cable equalization.

A 48 GHz passive HDMI cable should always have smaller discontinuities (at least from the same brand) than an 18 GHz since it needs to accept a signal with about twice the edge rate.

You might be able to use a longer 18 GHz passive cable, for 18 GHz, depending on the downstream device. As an example, a couple of years ago I tested with an 8 meter 18 GHz Velox cable to the Radiance Pro input from a 4k Panasonic player at 18 GHz. It worked great. I then tried that same cable from the same Panasonic player to two different 4k 18 GHz TVs. Neither ever got a picture.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> For the Tributaries UHDP 18 GHz passive I recommend no more than 5 meters. The longest UHDM 48 GHz passive cable Tributaries sells is 3 meters. Not sure why but the Tributaries 48 GHz UHD48 can be up to 5 meters. For 18 GHz connections any of these cables should work well.
> 
> For 48 GHz passive HDMI cable I would recommend no more (and no less actually) than 3 meters so there is an optimum amount of cable equalization.
> 
> A 48 GHz passive HDMI cable should always have smaller discontinuities (at least from the same brand) than an 18 GHz since it needs to accept a signal with about twice the edge rate.
> 
> You might be able to use a longer 18 GHz passive cable, for 18 GHz, depending on the downstream device. As an example, a couple of years ago I tested with an 8 meter 18 GHz Velox cable to the Radiance Pro input from a 4k Panasonic player at 18 GHz. It worked great. I then tried that same cable from the same Panasonic player to two different 4k 18 GHz TVs. Neither ever got a picture.


@jrp, JIm,

Thank you. What about for active cables. I assume fiber is the better option but not sure. How long can you run active cables and what is the best brand/model to use?


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> @jrp, JIm,
> 
> Thank you. What about for active cables. I assume fiber is the better option but not sure. How long can you run active cables and what is the best brand/model to use?


Once the electrical signals are converted to light in the fiber, they can go a very long way. The Tributaries UHDV "Vega" cables can be 10 to 50 meters. I suspect they could be much longer, but there is not a significant market for longer than 50 meters. So, for fiber any supported length works the same.

I recommend a UHDV fiber cable, or a AVPro Bullet-train fiber, for runs longer than 5 meters. The RUIPRO (amazon.com) is also a good fiber cable. There are some projectors that do not do well even at 3 meter passive length. We have resolved these with a fiber cable and looping the extra.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> Once the electrical signals are converted to light in the fiber, they can go a very long way. The Tributaries UHDV "Vega" cables can be 10 to 50 meters. I suspect they could be much longer, but there is not a significant market for longer than 50 meters. So, for fiber any supported length works the same.
> 
> I recommend a UHDV fiber cable, or a AVPro Bullet-train fiber, for runs longer than 5 meters. The RUIPRO (amazon.com) is also a good fiber cable. There are some projectors that do not do well even at 3 meter passive length. We have resolved these with a fiber cable and looping the extra.


Thank you


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Once the electrical signals are converted to light in the fiber, they can go a very long way. The Tributaries UHDV "Vega" cables can be 10 to 50 meters. I suspect they could be much longer, but there is not a significant market for longer than 50 meters. So, for fiber any supported length works the same.
> 
> I recommend a UHDV fiber cable, or a AVPro Bullet-train fiber, for runs longer than 5 meters. The RUIPRO (amazon.com) is also a good fiber cable. There are some projectors that do not do well even at 3 meter passive length. We have resolved these with a fiber cable and looping the extra.


Most consumer fibre HDMI cables do have length limitations, and it is my understanding that it's not the fibre / laser setup used to transport the TMDS streams, but degradation of the 5V supply and DDC signals, which are still on copper. A significant amount of the electronics in either end is a buffer setup for the DDC wires.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> For the Tributaries UHDP 18 GHz passive I recommend no more than 5 meters. The longest UHDM 48 GHz passive cable Tributaries sells is 3 meters. *Not sure why but the Tributaries 48 GHz UHD48 can be up to 5 meters*. For 18 GHz connections any of these cables should work well.


Looks to me that both passive 48Gbps cables are max. 3 meters on Tributaries website: 48GBPS ULTRA HDMI

Btw. you could drop the Hz and just use 9G, 18G and 48G Tributaries style if you dont like the Gbps.


----------



## [email protected]

@jrp, 

I haven't gottten your attention yet? I sent an email about the issue with 5348 4 days ago. Can you check and advise me? Thanks.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

MDesigns said:


> Btw. you could drop the Hz and just use 9G, 18G and 48G Tributaries style if you dont like the Gbps.


😂

I know ultimately it doesn’t matter, I know we’ve been round and round on this…. But dude, it’s Gigabits Per Second, Hertz is just not relevant here, never will be, no matter how much mental gymnastics and dictionary word bending can get you there, 6 degrees of Kevin bacon style.

Nowhere in the spec, or via any credible source outside of a typo will you find GHz to refer to HDMI bandwidth..






Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable - Bandwidth Up To 48Gbps


Looking for a high speed HDMI cable? ✓ Click here to learn about high speed vs ultra high speed HDMI cable specifications & certification program compliance! HDMI 2.1a




www.hdmi.org






😂


----------



## jrp

[email protected] said:


> @jrp,
> 
> I haven't gotten your attention yet? I sent an email about the issue with 5348 4 days ago. Can you check and advise me? Thanks.


I checked my inbox and both SPAM filters yesterday and did not find your email in any of them.

You can call our main line at 503-574-2211 and select option 2 for support. Please leave a message if I do not answer. Please leave your email (please spell out slowly) and if you are in the USA your phone number.

Or send the email again with "Radiance Pro 5348 issue" in the subject. We have had times when emails did not even make it to our SPAM folder, so this may not help us get in contact. If you can call that may be the best way to ensure contact.

I just sent you a PM. I do not normally check PM's but if nothing else we can try a PM exchange.


----------



## jrp

bobof said:


> Most consumer fibre HDMI cables do have length limitations, and it is my understanding that it's not the fibre / laser setup used to transport the TMDS streams, but degradation of the 5V supply and DDC signals, which are still on copper. A significant amount of the electronics in either end is a buffer setup for the DDC wires.


Thanks for the clarification. The DDC signals have been an issue for a number of longer HDMI cables.

Some fiber cable use an external power supply at the destination. The Tributaries UHDV do and this supplies the full 5 VDC Standby voltage.

Some have I2C buffers to reconstruct the DDC signals (for EDID and HDCP). We put one in our HDMI extender box back in the day since you are correct that I2C does not do well when sent on a long wire without intermediate buffering. I do not know if the Tributaries UHDV have a I2C buffer or not, but have not have issues up to the maximum of 25 meters I have tested.


----------



## bjorg

gerard1meehan said:


> Greetings fellow Lumigenians.
> 
> I recently upgraded my radiance 4444 to the 5348 and installed that in my dedicated theater room. I did hold on to my 4444 and have put that in my living room for my Sony OLED-A9G 77 in. When using the lumigen on an OLED TV what are some of the preferred settings? As the unit I'm using right now was calibrated for my projector. Max light and alike have to be a bit different.
> 
> I'm having someone come in and recalibrate both units. But in the meantime I'm sure I should change a few of the settings on the unit attached to the tv.
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance and Happy viewing


Here are my settings for the Sony video wall, which goes up to 1,000 nits:

LowRatio: 31
DynPad: 6
DeSat: Med
Global MaxLight: 3300

Hope that helps!


----------



## [email protected]

jrp said:


> I just sent you a PM. I do not normally check PM's but if nothing else we can try a PM exchange.


Thank you. PM sent.


----------



## bosler.bruce

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> I know ultimately it doesn’t matter, I know we’ve been round and round on this…. But dude, it’s Gigabits Per Second, Hertz is just not relevant here,


You might as well try to get people to stop saying their speakers are out of phase when one has inverted polarity. Or stop saying electrons are flowing down a wire, because they aren't...


----------



## MDesigns

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> 😂
> 
> I know ultimately it doesn’t matter, I know we’ve been round and round on this…. But dude, it’s Gigabits Per Second, Hertz is just not relevant here, never will be, no matter how much mental gymnastics and dictionary word bending can get you there, 6 degrees of Kevin bacon style.
> 
> Nowhere in the spec, or via any credible source outside of a typo will you find GHz to refer to HDMI bandwidth..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable - Bandwidth Up To 48Gbps
> 
> 
> Looking for a high speed HDMI cable? ✓ Click here to learn about high speed vs ultra high speed HDMI cable specifications & certification program compliance! HDMI 2.1a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hdmi.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 😂


Yep  I can't understand why not just stop using the wrong term for bandwidth. The data frequency in the HDMI cable is surely measured in gigahertz, but the numbers 9 GHz, 18 GHz and 48 GHz are incorrect for that so it's confusing.


----------



## KorbenDallas2021

MDesigns said:


> Yep  I can't understand why not just stop using the wrong term for bandwidth. The data frequency in the HDMI cable is surely measured in gigahertz, but the numbers 9 GHz, 18 GHz and 48 GHz are incorrect for that so it's confusing.


It’s just crazy, I think he’s gone too far now and won’t admit he’s wrong, it’s even printed on the unit itself, it’s not correct at all, might as well say mph 😂.

Maybe a trivial matter to some, but if your physician started staying you were 6lb’d tall and refused to concede that height was measured in ft and not lbs you’d have a hard time believing anything else they said 😂…


----------



## DigitalAV

KorbenDallas2021 said:


> It’s just crazy, I think he’s gone too far now and won’t admit he’s wrong, it’s even printed on the unit itself, it’s not correct at all, might as well say mph 😂.
> 
> Maybe a trivial matter to some, but if your physician started staying you were 6lb’d tall and refused to concede that height was measured in ft and not lbs you’d have a hard time believing anything else they said 😂…


You've said your piece now please stop, thanks


----------



## Chris5

bjorg said:


> Here are my settings for the Sony video wall, which goes up to 1,000 nits:
> 
> LowRatio: 31
> DynPad: 6
> DeSat: Med
> Global MaxLight: 3300
> 
> Hope that helps!


Hiya, Although my other setting are quite different, I see you have DynPad set to 6, like mine that @Gordon Fraser set up. With the feedback that @Javs has said he sets his at 1 or 2, should we still be using 6?


----------



## MDesigns

Doesn't DynPad=6 mean you are missing half or more of your display dynamic range to the padding?


----------



## jrp

MDesigns said:


> Doesn't DynPad=6 mean you are missing half or more of your display dynamic range to the padding?


It depends on the scene.

Dyn Pad exists to deal with scenes that get much brighter, so when scenes get brighter the transfer function does not need to change as much. The DTM intra-scene adaptation is available to make non-visible transfer function changes for these scenes, and for scenes that get darker.

There are a few scenes that are being padded by too much. For example, the just after plane crash scene in "A Mountain Between Us." The pad varies based on the per-region frame analysis. Even with a Dyn Pad of 6, the pad may not be large, or it might pad a significant amount if the scene analysis is consistent with a scene that might get a lot brighter.

Now that the pipeline enhancements are essentially done, and due to the requests for it, we will get back on DTM improvement now that the hiatus to complete the pipeline enhancements is over.

=============

[EDIT]: I looked back and saw bjorg said he has Max Light at 3300 nits. With a Low Ratio of 31, this puts the dark-scene max light about 750 nits. I would have to put the 3300 into a unit to have an exact number but this should be close.

So for all scenes padded to 750 nits or less the transfer function is the same at close to linear. In other words a 250 nit scene padded at 1X would look the same as one padded by 2X since both are in the near-linear range. So, in this case the amount of padding is moot.

The Radiance Pro, for good reason, would _not_ use all of the selected 750 nit "dark scene" range for a 250 nit scene. It would instead be close to nit for nit. The reason is a 250 nit scene using all 750 nits would then be the same brightness as a 750 nit scene and this would be a poor choice for any theater with such a bright display. So, if you looked at the output on a scope you would see not all the range is being used, but this is for good reason.


----------



## Chris5

Thanks @jrp , so for someone who wants a ‘set-and-forget’ right now, for a Sony 77AG9 does 6 sound right? or could I reduce it to say ‘4’?


----------



## jrp

Chris5 said:


> Thanks @jrp , so for someone who wants a ‘set-and-forget’ right now, for a Sony 77AG9 does 6 sound right? or could I reduce it to say ‘4’?


I have been using Dyn Pad = 4 with our 62 nit light output (at mid laser) on our 14 foot 2.40 Studiotek 130 from our RS4500. I have Max Light = 500, Low Ratio = 35, and DeSat = Mid.

I find this a good balance. I have also tried Dyn Pad at 3 and 5 and both are good choices IMO. Dyn Pad = 6 might be too much unless you have a lot of light. All this depends on how much head room you want to allow to reduce clipping in scenes that get a lot brighter, and how much light your projector or TV can output.

The human iris is very good at adapting to brightness. In general you would not notice if there is headroom left on the table, but you would notice clipping. The iris adapts to the amount of light in the scene, and in general watching you will not notice if it is a bit higher or a bit lower since your iris adjusts. 

Note: There is a limit on this as shown on our need to improve the plane crash mountain scene from "A Mountain Between Us." That scene just looks too dim because it is padded too much. We will be getting back on DTM in the next couple of weeks and this is one of the first scenes we will be looking at improving. 

================== 

One thing I recommend to people is to not get caught up in "this setting" versus "that setting." If you change to a brighter image it will generally look best when comparing. Rather, I stress looking at content for a while with one set of parameters. If you find the parameters provide excellent results for your taste then use them. If not, make the changes you think will help and watch a lot of content with those. This is how I arrived at our Lumagen Demo Theater settings shown above.


----------



## Kris Deering

I use a dynamic pad of 3 and to say that clipping is rare is the understatement of understatements. It takes some pretty extreme examples to get clipping.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> I have been using Dyn Pad = 4 with our 62 nit light output (at mid laser) on our 14 foot 2.40 Studiotek 130 from our RS4500. I have Max Light = 500, Low Ratio = 35, and DeSat = Mid.
> 
> I find this a good balance. I have also tried Dyn Pad at 3 and 5 and both are good choices IMO. Dyn Pad = 6 might be too much unless you have a lot of light. All this depends on how much head room you want to allow to reduce clipping in scenes that get a lot brighter, and how much light your projector or TV can output.
> 
> The human iris is very good at adapting to brightness. In general you would not notice if there is headroom left on the table, but you would notice clipping. The iris adapts to the amount of light in the scene, and in general watching you will not notice if it is a bit higher or a bit lower since your iris adjusts.
> 
> Note: There is a limit on this as shown on our need to improve the plane crash mountain scene from "A Mountain Between Us." That scene just looks too dim because it is padded too much. We will be getting back on DTM in the next couple of weeks and this is one of the first scenes we will be looking at improving.
> 
> ==================
> 
> One thing I recommend to people is to not get caught up in "this setting" versus "that setting." If you change to a brighter image it will generally look best when comparing. Rather, I stress looking at content for a while with one set of parameters. If you find the parameters provide excellent results for your taste then use them. If not, make the changes you think will help and watch a lot of content with those. This is how I arrived at our Lumagen Demo Theater settings shown above.


Are the dtm defaults still the recommended overall settings? (Obviously people will tweak, just curious if what the lumagen has stored for the defaults are still a good set of baseline settings)


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> As an aside, I think a large display at 1000 nits is to bright for the human visual system to deal well with for video content. The issue is going from a very dark scene to a very bright scene would be blinding, and you would have to look away. I already have this effect when running the Lumagen theater at 100 nits. For a larger display I think 600 nits is more reasonable as a maximum brightness. Likely others disagree, and you get to choose for yourself. Setting Max Light to 4000, would reserve more brightness for highlights with this very bright display. You can also set Dyn Pad to 5 or 6 to give each scene more headroom.
> 
> The good news is you can increase the Gamma (maybe in the 2.6 range) and set max light to maybe 2000 or even 4000, and Dyn Pad = 6, with this display to moderate normal video levels and use the extra brightness for highlights.
> 
> Note, with a Max Light of 4000, you will maintain color saturation to higher scene brightness levels. You can check out the HSL color model to see why. The model shows you can maintain good color saturation up to about 50% of the maximum light output capability. By using the higher Max Light you can preserve more color saturation for very bright scenes.
> 
> Try some of these changes to see what you prefer.


For the record, my DynPad is so high, because that's what I understood from Jim's response when I asked about it a few months ago.

EDIT: I'm always happy to learn. So maybe I'll play with lowering the DynPad to 5 or 4 and see how much it impacts the image.


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> It depends on the scene.
> 
> Dyn Pad exists to deal with scenes that get much brighter, so when scenes get brighter the transfer function does not need to change as much. The DTM intra-scene adaptation is available to make non-visible transfer function changes for these scenes, and for scenes that get darker.
> 
> There are a few scenes that are being padded by too much. For example, the just after plane crash scene in "A Mountain Between Us." The pad varies based on the per-region frame analysis. Even with a Dyn Pad of 6, the pad may not be large, or it might pad a significant amount if the scene analysis is consistent with a scene that might get a lot brighter.
> 
> Now that the pipeline enhancements are essentially done, and due to the requests for it, we will get back on DTM improvement now that the hiatus to complete the pipeline enhancements is over.
> 
> =============
> 
> [EDIT]: I looked back and saw bjorg said he has Max Light at 3300 nits. With a Low Ratio of 31, this puts the dark-scene max light about 750 nits. I would have to put the 3300 into a unit to have an exact number but this should be close.
> 
> So for all scenes padded to 750 nits or less the transfer function is the same at close to linear. In other words a 250 nit scene padded at 1X would look the same as one padded by 2X since both are in the near-linear range. So, in this case the amount of padding is moot.
> 
> The Radiance Pro, for good reason, would _not_ use all of the selected 750 nit "dark scene" range for a 250 nit scene. It would instead be close to nit for nit. The reason is a 250 nit scene using all 750 nits would then be the same brightness as a 750 nit scene and this would be a poor choice for any theater with such a bright display. So, if you looked at the output on a scope you would see not all the range is being used, but this is for good reason.


Jim, two years ago you posted this about Dyn Pad.

- DynPad: Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene cuts on the first frame of a new scene. Because scenes can get brighter within the scene, the Radiance Pro adds a small pad to its calculation of scene brightness to avoid the scene “crushing” later within the scene. The addition of “adaptive” changes within a scene this pad does not need to be as large. We started with DynPad = 6 as default. Now we use DynPad = 3 as default. The value of 3 works very well in conjunction with the Adaptive nature of the DTM. So well that I recommend trying DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. Even with a DynPad = 1 we see virtually no scenes that have any clipping as they get brighter. In fact we are considering changing the default for DynPad to 1. So I suggest you try DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. You can of course use a value of 2 or 3 and get excellent results. However, a value of 1 will increase the perceived brightness, which can be helpful on projector based theaters.

Is this still a good summary based on newer firmwares and the latest postings about some Dyn Pad issues at least until the DTM gets looked at again?


----------



## Chris5

It all seems very mixed and confusing, it would be nice to know the current best starting point for all the dtm values with the latest firmware.


----------



## SJHT

Chris5 said:


> It all seems very mixed and confusing, it would be nice to know the current best starting point for all the dtm values with the latest firmware.


And for us real novices, how about a single Auto function for all of this…


----------



## Kris Deering

Chris5 said:


> It all seems very mixed and confusing, it would be nice to know the current best starting point for all the dtm values with the latest firmware.


They are the same as they were before. I would recommend a DPAD of 3 for starting point.


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> Jim, two years ago you posted this about Dyn Pad.
> 
> - DynPad: Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene cuts on the first frame of a new scene. Because scenes can get brighter within the scene, the Radiance Pro adds a small pad to its calculation of scene brightness to avoid the scene “crushing” later within the scene. The addition of “adaptive” changes within a scene this pad does not need to be as large. We started with DynPad = 6 as default. Now we use DynPad = 3 as default. The value of 3 works very well in conjunction with the Adaptive nature of the DTM. So well that I recommend trying DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. Even with a DynPad = 1 we see virtually no scenes that have any clipping as they get brighter. In fact we are considering changing the default for DynPad to 1. So I suggest you try DynPad = 1 to see if it works for you. You can of course use a value of 2 or 3 and get excellent results. However, a value of 1 will increase the perceived brightness, which can be helpful on projector based theaters.
> 
> Is this still a good summary based on newer firmwares and the latest postings about some Dyn Pad issues at least until the DTM gets looked at again?


3 is still the best starting point and default position for most content. I remember when Jim wrote this he was looking at some content and not seeing clipping much with 1, but after further looking it was pretty easy to find cases where 1 is going to cause some issues. BUT, that doesn't mean that people wouldn't like 1 and you may find that clipping is rare with it depending on the content you are watching. There will always be cases that can trip things up for sure, and there likely always will be, but there is no hard/fast rule stating you have to use one number or the other.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> 3 is still the best starting point and default position for most content. I remember when Jim wrote this he was looking at some content and not seeing clipping much with 1, but after further looking it was pretty easy to find cases where 1 is going to cause some issues. BUT, that doesn't mean that people wouldn't like 1 and you may find that clipping is rare with it depending on the content you are watching. There will always be cases that can trip things up for sure, and there likely always will be, but there is no hard/fast rule stating you have to use one number or the other.


The problem is that this seems to be relative to the display being used and Jim is using a projector. Others use OLED/MicroLED and that’s a source of confusion for me, because different advise is given then. At least, that has been my experience. Maybe recommendations should be labeled with what type of display they are for.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> The problem is that this seems to be relative to the display being used and Jim is using a projector. Others use OLED/MicroLED and that’s a source of confusion for me, because different advise is given then. At least, that has been my experience. Maybe recommendations should be labeled with what type of display they are for.


True. I think flat panel users with the Lumagen are far more rare. Plus there is a huge difference between tone mapping for displays hovering around 100 nits vs those around 1000 nits. Worlds apart in what they need.


----------



## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> True. I think flat panel users with the Lumagen are far more rare. Plus there is a huge difference between tone mapping for displays hovering around 100 nits vs those around 1000 nits. Worlds apart in what they need.


Shouldn't that be (or possible to be) mostly automated when you input your display nits to a video processor?


----------



## Chris5

Kris Deering said:


> True. I think flat panel users with the Lumagen are far more rare. Plus there is a huge difference between tone mapping for displays hovering around 100 nits vs those around 1000 nits. Worlds apart in what they need.


Just pointing out, I only have a 77” oled tv, so not that rare. I used to have an expensive projector but got fed up with black crush due to colour of walls so got rid of it.

Edit: I don’t actually mean ‘black crush’ I mean I don’t get any blacks off the screen due to reflections.


----------



## Kris Deering

Chris5 said:


> Just pointing out, I only have a 77” oled tv, so not that rare. I used to have an expensive projector but got fed up with black crush due to colour of walls so got rid of it.


I’m not saying your display is rare, just that using a Lumagen with it is. I have a similar one but would never consider using a Lumagen with it for tone mapping.


----------



## melb0028

Kris Deering said:


> I’m not saying your display is rare, just that using a Lumagen with it is. I have a similar one but would never consider using a Lumagen with it for tone mapping.


I wouldn’t be quite so dogmatic. I find the total package of a lumagen plus oled is out of this world spectacular and trumps a plain oled image hands down. In addition, personally I far prefer the lumagen dtm to lg’s as I’ve currently set it.


----------



## bjorg

melb0028 said:


> I wouldn’t be quite so dogmatic. I find the total package of a lumagen plus oled is out of this world spectacular and trumps a plain oled image hands down. In addition, personally I far prefer the lumagen dtm to lg’s as I’ve currently set it.


Same here. I also like the fact that it allows me to enhance the 3D image on the LG G6.

BTW, what did you do for 2D SDR content? It’s really bright, so I lowered the white level, but that seems to suck the life out of the image a bit. It’s tolerable, but would love to find out if there is a better solution.


----------



## melb0028

bjorg said:


> Same here. I also like the fact that it allows me to enhance the 3D image on the LG G6.
> 
> BTW, what did you do for 2D SDR content? It’s really bright, so I lowered the white level, but that seems to suck the life out of the image a bit. It’s tolerable, but would love to find out if there is a better solution.


I used colourspace with to calibrate / generate a 3d lut and load directly into the lg oled so a pretty in depth method. The image though is mind blowing stunning. 
I think though for what you describe I would start with a good calibration disc like spears and munsil and get the oled light level and contrast set. I used to have a g6 but don’t any longer so I can’t recall if those terms on my settings menu are the same as what you are seeing. Hope this helps a little.


----------



## bjorg

melb0028 said:


> I used colourspace with to calibrate / generate a 3d lut and load directly into the lg oled so a pretty in depth method. The image though is mind blowing stunning.
> I think though for what you describe I would start with a good calibration disc like spears and munsil and get the oled light level and contrast set. I used to have a g6 but don’t any longer so I can’t recall if those terms on my settings menu are the same as what you are seeing. Hope this helps a little.


I did the disc calibration already. The challenge is that the display has to be run at 100% brightness all the time since the display only ever sees an SDR signal. I guess I could use different inputs on the display which would be configured for different brightness levels, but that would require running another HDMI cable. Just curious how other owners have dealt with it.


----------



## melb0028

bjorg said:


> I did the disc calibration already. The challenge is that the display has to be run at 100% brightness all the time since the display only ever sees an SDR signal. I guess I could use different inputs on the display which would be configured for different brightness levels, but that would require running another HDMI cable. Just curious how other owners have dealt with it.


I suppose you could try tweaking the white and gamma settings in the lumagen. Perhaps that would allow you to turn down the brightness on your tv but still look good.


----------



## Kris Deering

Can't you use the HDR flagging to control what mode you are in? I was under the impression that most flat panels will not even go into their full output without seeing the flag.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> Can't you use the HDR flagging to control what mode you are in? I was under the impression that most flat panels will not even go into their full output without seeing the flag.


Not sure how. The RP is sending HDR in an SDR container. So how would the TV know to switch? It’s certainly possible the LG behaves that way. I simply set light output to Max. It seems to be the best I can do and looks quite nice. However, SDR content is then way too bright.


----------



## Kris Deering

In the CMS right under the colorspace selection there is an option for HDR Flag on or off. With it off, the display stays in its default SDR picture mode. With it on the display switches to its HDR picture mode. But I do not think the LG would allow you to defeat their HDR processing like you can in projectors most of the time.


----------



## bosler.bruce

never mind 

Figured it out, Menu 0943 as in the Quick Start Guide.... 



jrp said:


> Both outputs on the 5244 can have video. For output 1, which by default is audio only, go into the output->Output Setup->2D menu, select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for Input modes, and then change Output 1 (The digit 1 under the word Enable at the far right) to "B" for both. Press OK, then EXIT, then do a Save.


OK, that works, I get audio and video from the 5244 to the Trinnov, but so far I can only get stereo

With the DVD player connected direct to the Trinnov I get multichannel
With the DVD player connected to the 5244 and the 5244 connected to the Trinnov I only get Left and right

same input to Trinnov, same settings


----------



## jrp

bosler.bruce said:


> never mind
> 
> Figured it out, Menu 0943 as in the Quick Start Guide....
> 
> OK, that works, I get audio and video from the 5244 to the Trinnov, but so far I can only get stereo
> 
> With the DVD player connected direct to the Trinnov I get multichannel
> With the DVD player connected to the 5244 and the 5244 connected to the Trinnov I only get Left and right
> 
> same input to Trinnov, same settings


If this is a SD DVD player, or an HD Blueray player, or HD Streamer, it may not parse the 4k EDID coming back form the Pro correctly.

You can go into the Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Video EDID menu, and set Video Limit = 1080. This removes the 4k information from the EDID going back to the source from the Pro. Often this resolves issues, such as audio, form SD and 1080 source devices. Press OK to accept and then to a Save.

Worth a shot, but the issue might be something else.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I recently ordered up some legacy series on DVD that are not available on bluray. Most are 1.33 NTSC; scifi from the 90's and early 2000s. Is there a preferred setting to upscale and sharpen with the RP for this material that has been determined from long-term users? TIA.


----------



## bosler.bruce

jrp said:


> You can go into the Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Video EDID menu, and set Video Limit = 1080. This removes the 4k information from the EDID going back to the source from the Pro. Often this resolves issues, such as audio, form SD and 1080 source devices. Press OK to accept and then to a Save.


sorry for the confusion, right after I posted the problem I thought to look at your start up guide and discovered the Menu 0943 command that enabled multichannel. I don't see how to delete a post so I edited it with the following... in other words. * it all works*



bosler.bruce said:


> never mind
> 
> Figured it out, Menu 0943 as in the Quick Start Guide....


----------



## thebland

*Way Off Topic Radiance HDMI out 2 Question.*

I have an outdoor TV that will not accept HDR (but will accept 4K resolution). I have a Radiance 4446. I have to run Apple TV at 4K *SDR* to get a picture. Can the 2nd HDMI of the Radiance output be set up to send a signal that is 4K resolution but SDR (HDR turned off)? Possible? HDMI OUT #1 goes to theater. Rarely, if ever would both sources be powered on at once. Thanks!


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> Way Off Topic Radiance HDMI out 2 Question).
> 
> I have an outdoor TV that will not accept HDR (but will accept 4K resolution). I have a Radiance 4446. I have to run Apple TV at 4K SDR to se ea picture. Can the 2nd HDMI of the Radiance output be set up to send a signal that is 4K resolution but SDR (HDR turned off)? Possible? HDMI OUT #1 goes to theater. Rarely, if ever would both sources be powered on at once. Thanks!


Assuming you haven't used them all,you could use one of the MEMA-MEMD banks to point at different CMS to suit the configuration you want.


----------



## MDesigns

thebland said:


> Way Off Topic Radiance HDMI out 2 Question).
> 
> I have an outdoor TV that will not accept HDR (but will accept 4K resolution). I have a Radiance 4446. I have to run Apple TV at 4K SDR to se ea picture. Can the 2nd HDMI of the Radiance output be set up to send a signal that is 4K resolution but SDR (HDR turned off)? Possible? HDMI OUT #1 goes to theater. Rarely, if ever would both sources be powered on at once. Thanks!


Are you sending HDR to your theater? I would have thought almost all would use the Lumagen to tonemap HDR to SDR signal. So the same would go to your outdoor TV too.


----------



## thebland

MDesigns said:


> Are you sending HDR to your theater? I would have thought almost all would use the Lumagen to tonemap HDR to SDR signal. So the same would go to your outdoor TV too.


Yes. HDR to theater but I’d like a non-HDR signal sent to this other TV with the 2nd Lumagen output.


----------



## thebland

W


bobof said:


> Assuming you haven't used them all,you could use one of the MEMA-MEMD banks to point at different CMS to suit the configuration you want.


 I did not calibrate it but is there a setting for turning off HDR (like is in Apple TV 4K)?


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> *Way Off Topic Radiance HDMI out 2 Question.*
> 
> I have an outdoor TV that will not accept HDR (but will accept 4K resolution). I have a Radiance 4446. I have to run Apple TV at 4K *SDR* to get a picture. Can the 2nd HDMI of the Radiance output be set up to send a signal that is 4K resolution but SDR (HDR turned off)? Possible? HDMI OUT #1 goes to theater. Rarely, if ever would both sources be powered on at once. Thanks!


Yes, you can do what you are asking. I've done it for a lot of clients with non HDR capable displays/projectors.


----------



## MDesigns

thebland said:


> Yes. HDR to theater but I’d like a non-HDR signal sent to this other TV with the 2nd Lumagen output.


Just for interest, what display you have in the theater and why not using the Lumagen for HDR tonemapping?


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> I did not calibrate it but is there a setting for turning off HDR (like is in Apple TV 4K)?


As others have said, it's unlikely you want to turn off HDR really; you'd be more likely to want to have HDR sources tonemapped to SDR. However, as the TV and projector are likely quite different, the advice on separate CMS slots using the memories function stands. 

It's not totally trivial to set up separate CMS and memories. If there were someone who could maybe in exchange for some beans guide you through it I'd probably go for that (that you're asking how to set it up indicates you perhaps may need some assistance with it). Maybe @Kris Deering?

If you're wanting to DIY; the general gist of it is for the memory you are going to use for the outdoor TV, via the menus you configure that memory to use the alternatively configured CMS. It's done from this Output setup screen and you set the In condition to the input / memory combination you want to adjust and then the Output 709 (SDR) and HDR / 2020 CMS to point to the CMS with different settings to suit the TV. Depending on the display you might choose to use a different style also. There are various ways to manipulate the input condition options to configure the inputs and memories in different ways; it's all quite self-explanatory to me but I think some people find the matrix and how it works under the hood slightly daunting.

There may be some additional things to work through if your TV and / or projector behaves oddly in standby as the display that is in standby can interfere with the operation of the active display; you'll find that out when you get there...

Pinched screenshot of the screen in question where most of the action happens. These are NOT the particular settings you would want, just showing you where in the UI this is mostly managed from.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I set my RP up last night for the new 480i dvd content (Dark Angel) to begin comparisons with various scaling options. Thought the best way to start was to set the oppo to output direct and let the RP do the whole enchilada right away. Even though I have a pixel-shifter, I output all sources at 3840x2180p to the Epson at the source native rate. I turned off the Darbee in the Oppo too. Decided on a little sharpening with some A/B'ing. Without, the image is soft and pleasant, but maybe a bit too impressionistic for me. With 2, 2 on sharpening in normal and 40 on Darbee the image looks surprisingly detailed and pretty close to HD. I am mapping to SDR2020 from 601 and the colors really pop too. Really impressed with what the RP can do with this. Of course that's it's raison d'etre, right? It's foremost a scaler. Next, I am going to compare with the Oppo set to output a 1080p with Darbee on and let the RP scale that without sharpening, and finally compare with the Sony 800M2 direct scaling the dvd to 3840 with LLDV and through to the RP via a DIVA for the DV block spoof; which then gives me dtm from the RP.

I am really pleased that I can breathe some extra life into some legacy content that isn't available in a higher res format. I had forgotten how good this series was. The best part of the process is seeing a 19 y/o Jessica Alba just killing it. 

I know a few pages back that Jim posted what the target temp should be for a 1U. Can someone remind me please. I think my chip temp was 60 and I lowered the target well below 86 after that discussion. I can't hear any fan noise from my main position.

Note: I am on beta 050722
Note: @jrp is there any reason you couldn't provide a dtm global option for sd/hd content, such that all content can be dtm'd at native?


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Based on feedback some want the entire range used as measured at the start of the scene. This is a personal preference item and one we will address in a future release. Currently Dyn Pad = 1 has almost no pad in the transfer function, but will clip if a scene gets a lot brighter due to the limit we set on the intra-scene adaptation speed. I am talking to Patrick about allowing the intra-scene adaptation to be faster than we currently allow when the Dyn Pad = 1. Then as the Dyn Pad value is increased, the Radiance Pro DTM will add more headroom padding, and slow down the adaptation.
> 
> Working on DTM is certainly not a bad choice as top priority. However, it delays other work, such as faster auto-aspect, and PiP/PoP work. So, with apologies to the few wanting PiP/PoP, we will be working on fixing the couple of edge case pixel issues Javs found pixel-peeping, and improving DTM, as our top priorities.


Hi Jim,

I am glad to hear that you are now coming back working on DTM again. As I emailed you last year and also posted here recently (New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series), there is another aspect of DTM that needs to be improved besides Dpad limiting the full dynamic range, that is considering weighting APL/FALL of each frame more in the calculations. In the current version of DTM, a few highlights in a low APL scene can make the EOTF lowered too much, and some very bright high APL scenes (like the ones in MEG and Aquaman) are still too flat (not necessarily clipping), the EOTF is not lowered enough.

The former type of scene is especially distracting when there are some highlights behind a character which makes him/her and the whole scene too dark. Then the next shot when the lights are hidden or partially hidden, the character becomes much brighter. You can also use the menu0532 function to help you investigating these. When some small highlights appear or disappear, which should have barely changed APL/FALL, the calculated MaxCLL and maxY values change a lot.

This is a list of examples of such scenes:

Spiderman Far From home 59:20-59:50

Sicario 50:40-52:00

Bohemian rhapsody 1:30:00-1:31:00

Aquaman 31:00-32:00.

Parasite 1:08:30-1:09:30

Setting Dpad to 5 or higher, or setting max light higher can somewhat mitigate such distractions by darkening the whole scene, but again, doing this also throws out more dynamic range.

I am not the only one noticing this, another Lumagen owner, who doesn't want to post here, PM'ed me yesterday asking if I could bring this up to you again. He and I have been discussing these things (Dpad eats a lot of dynamic range, APL not being weight enough) for a long time.

Another thing to look at is that DTM at 60P tends to lower brightness and over saturate. Turning off the frame rate match in ATV and setting it to output 60p (not saying this is the right thing to do, it was just an accidental discovery), the same scene will be darker and more saturated compared to playing at 24p. Using the menu0532 function revealed that the calculated maxY value was much higher when playing the same contents at 60p compared to 24p, while MaxCLL stayed the same. The larger gap between maxY and MaxCLL also indicated higher saturation when processing DTM at 60p. Of course we should play 24p contents at 24p, but this discovery made me think how this bug would affect original 60p contents. I have also reported this bug to Pat more than a year ago. I hope Jim and Pat can take a look at it this time.

I have been reporting issues to Lumagen mostly through emails in the past. But after seeing Javs's posts recently, I think it is a good idea to post here as well, so that other experts, like @Javs, can also take a look.


----------



## 5mark

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are now coming back working on DTM again. As I emailed you last year and also posted here recently (New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series), there is another aspect of DTM that needs to be improved besides Dpad limiting the full dynamic range, that is considering weighting APL/FALL of each frame more in the calculations. In the current version of DTM, a few highlights in a low APL scene can make the EOTF lowered too much, and some very bright high APL scenes (like the ones in MEG and Aquaman) are still too flat (not necessarily clipping), the EOTF is not lowered enough.
> 
> The former type of scene is especially distracting when there are some highlights behind a character which makes him/her and the whole scene too dark. Then the next shot when the lights are hidden or partially hidden, the character becomes much brighter. You can also use the menu0532 function to help you investigating these. When some small highlights appear or disappear, which should have barely changed APL/FALL, the calculated MaxCLL and maxY values change a lot.
> 
> This is a list of examples of such scenes:
> 
> Spiderman Far From home 59:20-59:50
> 
> Sicario 50:40-52:00
> 
> Bohemian rhapsody 1:30:00-1:31:00
> 
> Aquaman 31:00-32:00.
> 
> Parasite 1:08:30-1:09:30
> 
> Setting Dpad to 5 or higher, or setting max light higher can somewhat mitigate such distractions by darkening the whole scene, but again, doing this also throws out more dynamic range.
> 
> I am not the only one noticing this, another Lumagen owner, who doesn't want to post here, PM'ed me yesterday asking if I could bring this up to you again. He and I have been discussing these things (Dpad eats a lot of dynamic range, APL not being weight enough) for a long time.
> 
> Another thing to look at is that DTM at 60P tends to lower brightness and over saturate. Turning off the frame rate match in ATV and setting it to output 60p (not saying this is the right thing to do, it was just an accidental discovery), the same scene will be darker and more saturated compared to playing at 24p. Using the menu0532 function revealed that the calculated maxY value was much higher when playing the same contents at 60p compared to 24p, while MaxCLL stayed the same. The larger gap between maxY and MaxCLL also indicated higher saturation when processing DTM at 60p. Of course we should play 24p contents at 24p, but this discovery made me think how this bug would affect original 60p contents. I have also reported this bug to Pat more than a year ago. I hope Jim and Pat can take a look at it this time.
> 
> I have been reporting issues to Lumagen mostly through emails in the past. But after seeing Javs's posts recently, I think it is a good idea to post here as well, so that other experts, like @Javs, can also take a look.


That Far From Home scene (59:20) is such a great demonstration of this issue. I recommend anyone interested to watch this scene with static tone mapping and notice that the brightness stays essentially the same for the whole scene. It becomes clear using the DTM that the bright light behind the character is dimming those shots way too much. One or two bright highlights in an otherwise dark scene really should be ignored (or at least weighted a lot less) in making the brightness(EOTF) calculations.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Just a quick follow-up on results of my scaling option comparisons above: the RP produces by far the best image from a dvd source-direct compared to other options. With the beta firmware, I am seeing a really great image from the new de-interlacing and advances in 4k60 from the pipeline rebuild. Bravo.

For a sci-fi geek like me, that means now revisiting Dark Angel, Andromeda, Buffy, Star Cops, Survivors, Kiss Meets the Phantom of the Park and a host of older music videos that are all on dvd-only and not feeling like it is a major compromise. In the case of Buffy, the one attempt to remaster it was a colossal failure with cropping to widescreen and the best way to view it is 4:3 as it was filmed for, only available on dvd. I have my "work" cut out for me for awhile...


----------



## arsenalfc89

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are now coming back working on DTM again. As I emailed you last year and also posted here recently (New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series), there is another aspect of DTM that needs to be improved besides Dpad limiting the full dynamic range, that is considering weighting APL/FALL of each frame more in the calculations. In the current version of DTM, a few highlights in a low APL scene can make the EOTF lowered too much, and some very bright high APL scenes (like the ones in MEG and Aquaman) are still too flat (not necessarily clipping), the EOTF is not lowered enough.
> 
> The former type of scene is especially distracting when there are some highlights behind a character which makes him/her and the whole scene too dark. Then the next shot when the lights are hidden or partially hidden, the character becomes much brighter. You can also use the menu0532 function to help you investigating these. When some small highlights appear or disappear, which should have barely changed APL/FALL, the calculated MaxCLL and maxY values change a lot.
> 
> This is a list of examples of such scenes:
> 
> Spiderman Far From home 59:20-59:50
> 
> Sicario 50:40-52:00
> 
> Bohemian rhapsody 1:30:00-1:31:00
> 
> Aquaman 31:00-32:00.
> 
> Parasite 1:08:30-1:09:30
> 
> Setting Dpad to 5 or higher, or setting max light higher can somewhat mitigate such distractions by darkening the whole scene, but again, doing this also throws out more dynamic range.
> 
> I am not the only one noticing this, another Lumagen owner, who doesn't want to post here, PM'ed me yesterday asking if I could bring this up to you again. He and I have been discussing these things (Dpad eats a lot of dynamic range, APL not being weight enough) for a long time.
> 
> Another thing to look at is that DTM at 60P tends to lower brightness and over saturate. Turning off the frame rate match in ATV and setting it to output 60p (not saying this is the right thing to do, it was just an accidental discovery), the same scene will be darker and more saturated compared to playing at 24p. Using the menu0532 function revealed that the calculated maxY value was much higher when playing the same contents at 60p compared to 24p, while MaxCLL stayed the same. The larger gap between maxY and MaxCLL also indicated higher saturation when processing DTM at 60p. Of course we should play 24p contents at 24p, but this discovery made me think how this bug would affect original 60p contents. I have also reported this bug to Pat more than a year ago. I hope Jim and Pat can take a look at it this time.
> 
> I have been reporting issues to Lumagen mostly through emails in the past. But after seeing Javs's posts recently, I think it is a good idea to post here as well, so that other experts, like @Javs, can also take a look.


I noticed the 60P bug as well. PQ image still looks great to me but I do notice the issue.


----------



## bjorg

5mark said:


> That Far From Home scene (59:20) is such a great demonstration of this issue. I recommend anyone interested to watch this scene with static tone mapping and notice that the brightness stays essentially the same for the whole scene. It becomes clear using the DTM that the bright light behind the character is dimming those shots way too much. One or two bright highlights in an otherwise dark scene really should be ignored (or at least weighted a lot less) in making the brightness(EOTF) calculations.


Checked the scene but couldn't detect any changes. Might be because my settings are different.


----------



## Jue Liang

bjorg said:


> Checked the scene but couldn't detect any changes. Might be because my settings are different.


Well, you have a video wall that can do around thousand of nits (I guess), and your setting is

LowRatio: 31
DynPad: 6
DeSat: Med
Global MaxLight: 3300

As I said in the last post, the higher the maxlight and Dpad settings are, the less of problem with this issue, simply because there is much less need for the DTM to adjust the EOTF. Your brightness is wayyyyyyyy higher than most of us here. With your brightness, DTM doesn't even need to do anything at all in most of those scenes.

For most projector users, the brightness would be more like in the 50-150 nit range, and the DTM has to work much harder, which brings much more chance of all kinds of problems.


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are now coming back working on DTM again. As I emailed you last year and also posted here recently (New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series), there is another aspect of DTM that needs to be improved besides Dpad limiting the full dynamic range, that is considering weighting APL/FALL of each frame more in the calculations. In the current version of DTM, a few highlights in a low APL scene can make the EOTF lowered too much, and some very bright high APL scenes (like the ones in MEG and Aquaman) are still too flat (not necessarily clipping), the EOTF is not lowered enough.
> 
> The former type of scene is especially distracting when there are some highlights behind a character which makes him/her and the whole scene too dark. Then the next shot when the lights are hidden or partially hidden, the character becomes much brighter. You can also use the menu0532 function to help you investigating these. When some small highlights appear or disappear, which should have barely changed APL/FALL, the calculated MaxCLL and maxY values change a lot.
> 
> This is a list of examples of such scenes:
> 
> Spiderman Far From home 59:20-59:50
> 
> Sicario 50:40-52:00
> 
> Bohemian rhapsody 1:30:00-1:31:00
> 
> Aquaman 31:00-32:00.
> 
> Parasite 1:08:30-1:09:30
> 
> Setting Dpad to 5 or higher, or setting max light higher can somewhat mitigate such distractions by darkening the whole scene, but again, doing this also throws out more dynamic range.
> 
> I am not the only one noticing this, another Lumagen owner, who doesn't want to post here, PM'ed me yesterday asking if I could bring this up to you again. He and I have been discussing these things (Dpad eats a lot of dynamic range, APL not being weight enough) for a long time.
> 
> Another thing to look at is that DTM at 60P tends to lower brightness and over saturate. Turning off the frame rate match in ATV and setting it to output 60p (not saying this is the right thing to do, it was just an accidental discovery), the same scene will be darker and more saturated compared to playing at 24p. Using the menu0532 function revealed that the calculated maxY value was much higher when playing the same contents at 60p compared to 24p, while MaxCLL stayed the same. The larger gap between maxY and MaxCLL also indicated higher saturation when processing DTM at 60p. Of course we should play 24p contents at 24p, but this discovery made me think how this bug would affect original 60p contents. I have also reported this bug to Pat more than a year ago. I hope Jim and Pat can take a look at it this time.
> 
> I have been reporting issues to Lumagen mostly through emails in the past. But after seeing Javs's posts recently, I think it is a good idea to post here as well, so that other experts, like @Javs, can also take a look.


Swamped this weekend but will try and get a look at these in the next few days. I will see if I notice anything with 60p as well. Can't see why that would change anything at all, but who knows!


----------



## Javs

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are now coming back working on DTM again. As I emailed you last year and also posted here recently (New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series), there is another aspect of DTM that needs to be improved besides Dpad limiting the full dynamic range, that is considering weighting APL/FALL of each frame more in the calculations. In the current version of DTM, a few highlights in a low APL scene can make the EOTF lowered too much, and some very bright high APL scenes (like the ones in MEG and Aquaman) are still too flat (not necessarily clipping), the EOTF is not lowered enough.
> 
> The former type of scene is especially distracting when there are some highlights behind a character which makes him/her and the whole scene too dark. Then the next shot when the lights are hidden or partially hidden, the character becomes much brighter. You can also use the menu0532 function to help you investigating these. When some small highlights appear or disappear, which should have barely changed APL/FALL, the calculated MaxCLL and maxY values change a lot.
> 
> This is a list of examples of such scenes:
> 
> Spiderman Far From home 59:20-59:50


I checked that scene and can confirm the image becomes really quite dark when it cuts to Mysterio each time with that light behind him. Dynpad 1 doesnt even solve it.

The light in the background is 1500 nits.

Dpad1











I posted the MadVR pic here:









Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp...


Yeah that looks great, I checked here and can confirm chroma is seems perfect with Super XBR also in the 2160p version of this pattern. I can see it shift slightly if I enable NGU AA. But NGU Sharp also seems fine to me? the images are only available in 1080p. if NGU sharp get's the same x shift...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Jue Liang

Javs said:


> I checked that scene and can confirm the image becomes really quite dark when it cuts to Mysterio each time with that light behind him. Dynpad 1 doesnt even solve it.


Dpad doesn't affect much on frames with maxCLL much higher than your effective low maxlight, but has a significant impact on frames with maxCLL close to your effective low maxlight (as we discussed before). So reducing Dpad won't make the shots with highlights brighter, but would make the shots with no highlights much brighter, thus cause more brightness fluctuations of the character. Increasing Dpad or maxlight can mitigate these brightness fluctuations by darkening the shots that have no highlights. Not ideal though as it darkens everything, but better than seeing brightness fluctuations IMO. Weighting APL/FALL more in the DTM calculations should be the ultimate solution.


----------



## desray2k

Jue Liang said:


> ...So reducing Dpad won't make the shots with highlights brighter, but would make the shots with no highlights much brighter, thus cause more brightness fluctuations of the character. Increasing Dpad or maxlight can mitigate these brightness fluctuations by darkening the shots that have no highlights. Not ideal though as it darkens everything, but better than seeing brightness fluctuations IMO. Weighting APL/FALL more in the DTM calculations should be the ultimate solution.


Agreed with your observations...I am experiencing the same thing when I played with the DPad (that affects DTM) and the effective low maxlight. I'm using Sony VW995ES laser projector and I've found DPad at 3 and low maxlight at 500 with a ratio of 33 yields a good image with minimum brightness fluctuations in my case. YMMV. 

Weighting APL/FALL to improve the DTM algorithm does make sense but not sure doable or resource intensive or not?


----------



## Jue Liang

desray2k said:


> Agreed with your observations...I am experiencing the same thing when I played with the DPad (that affects DTM) and the effective low maxlight. I'm using Sony VW995ES laser projector and I've found DPad at 3 and low maxlight at 500 with a ratio of 33 yields a good image with minimum brightness fluctuations in my case. YMMV.
> 
> Weighting APL/FALL to improve the DTM algorithm does make sense but not sure doable or resource intensive or not?


I have no idea if LRP has enough resource to do that, but I would hope so.

Maybe I am even more sensitive than you to those artifacts. I had to set my effective high maxlight at 1200 nits, effective low maxlight at 278 nits (my display brightness is ~210 nits), and Dpad at 5 to minimize brightness fluctuations.


----------



## jqmn

Has anyone checked below black, black and near black when using the LRP to upscale BD Rec 709 1080p24 to Rec 709 4K (non cinema)? When I use LRP to upscale I note below black signal issues (one or two lit bars) that go away when the upscale is moved back to the projector. Thank-you.


----------



## bjorg

jqmn said:


> Has anyone checked below black, black and near black when using the LRP to upscale BD Rec 709 1080p24 to Rec 709 4K (non cinema)? When I use LRP to upscale I note below black signal issues (one or two lit bars) that go away when the upscale is moved back to the projector. Thank-you.


I think I had a similar issue where I had to change the threshold for black so that my displays showed true-black instead of dark gray. Although, in my case, it upscales to 4K and also does color conversion to P3. So, may not be related.


----------



## jqmn

bjorg said:


> I think I had a similar issue where I had to change the threshold for black so that my displays showed true-black instead of dark gray. Although, in my case, it upscales to 4K and also does color conversion to P3. So, may not be related.


Thanks. No color conversion is involved in this issue (Rec 709 staying at Rec 709). It is a regular near black pattern and no chroma conversion (4:2:2) is happening either. The LRP has its settings all flat for the areas that might change black level thus it should only be doing straight 2K => 4K upconversion (3840 x 2160). Like I said, in straight pass thu mode there isn't any issue. Maybe @jrp will comment.


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> Has anyone checked below black, black and near black when using the LRP to upscale BD Rec 709 1080p24 to Rec 709 4K (non cinema)? When I use LRP to upscale I note below black signal issues (one or two lit bars) that go away when the upscale is moved back to the projector. Thank-you.


Steps to reproduce? I can check this for you.

Which FW?

You said near black pattern, any in particular?

One or two lit bars? Which, top or bottom rows? Or do you mean bars in the black pattern below black are lit up, thus raised black floor?

Are you using RGB out from the Lumagen? This can raise black levels ive reported that already.


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> Steps to reproduce? I can check this for you.
> 
> Which FW?
> 
> You said near black pattern, any in particular?
> 
> One or two lit bars? Which, top or bottom rows? Or do you mean bars in the black pattern below black are lit up, thus raised black floor?
> 
> Are you using RGB out from the Lumagen? This can raise black levels ive reported that already.


Thank-you. I am on the most recently posted "beta" release 062222.

It is the very old AVS709 flashing black bar mkv. Bars are 2 - 25 with reference (video) black being bar 16. The bar numbers are repeated top and bottom with only one bar per level in between.

No, 4:2:2 in and out.

I can't remember which below black bars are lit in the upscale are but there are two (maybe 3) of them at different levels (not grouped together/sequential). All goes as it should when upscaling is killed in the LRP.


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> Thank-you. I am on the most recently posted "beta" release 062222.
> 
> It is the very old AVS709 flashing black bar mkv. Bars are 2 - 25 with reference (video) black being bar 16. The bar numbers are repeated top and bottom with only one bar per level in between.
> 
> No, 4:2:2 in and out.
> 
> I can't remember which below black bars are lit in the upscale are but there are two (maybe 3) of them at different levels (not grouped together/sequential). All goes as it should when upscaling is killed in the LRP.


Cool I have those patterns and can check what it does on my end. Very easy to see raised black on the scopes.


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> Thank-you. I am on the most recently posted "beta" release 062222.
> 
> It is the very old AVS709 flashing black bar mkv. Bars are 2 - 25 with reference (video) black being bar 16. The bar numbers are repeated top and bottom with only one bar per level in between.
> 
> No, 4:2:2 in and out.
> 
> I can't remember which below black bars are lit in the upscale are but there are two (maybe 3) of them at different levels (not grouped together/sequential). All goes as it should when upscaling is killed in the LRP.


Ok I had a look, I dont get raised blacks with 422 In/Out, but I do get it with any kind of 444 out, YcbCr or RGB out and the blacks are raised. Actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0

2160 In./Out 422 In / Out

The red shaded area on the right hand side scope at the bottom is below black, so if you follow across to the bar just before it raises out, thats the reference black bar. Still black here.










1080p to 2160p 422 in/out - Still black










1080p to 2160p 422 in 444 YcbCr out - Raised black actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0










1080p to 2160p 422 in RGB Out - Raised black actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0










2160p to 2160p YcbCr 444 is also raised black actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0











So, if you are really using 422, I dont see your bug I cannot recreate sorry.

There is very slight black level height changing on the scopes, though its still reading black on my end, but you can clearly see the true black bar is moving a tad, so you could have other settings pushing it out of black perhaps.

But there IS a bug with DTM On if you use RGB out, which does raise black for sure. But different to you.


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> Ok I had a look, I dont get raised blacks with 422 In/Out, but I do get it with any kind of 444 out, YcbCr or RGB out and the blacks are raised. Actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0
> 
> 2160 In./Out 422 In / Out
> 
> The red shaded area on the right hand side scope at the bottom is below black, so if you follow across to the bar just before it raises out, thats the reference black bar. Still black here.
> 
> View attachment 3318130
> 
> 
> 1080p to 2160p 422 in/out - Still black
> 
> View attachment 3318131
> 
> 
> 1080p to 2160p 422 in 444 YcbCr out - Raised black actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0
> 
> View attachment 3318132
> 
> 
> 1080p to 2160p 422 in RGB Out - Raised black actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0
> 
> View attachment 3318133
> 
> 
> 2160p to 2160p YcbCr 444 is also raised black actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0
> 
> View attachment 3318134
> 
> 
> 
> So, if you are really using 422, I dont see your bug I cannot recreate sorry.
> 
> There is very slight black level height changing on the scopes, though its still reading black on my end, but you can clearly see the true black bar is moving a tad, so you could have other settings pushing it out of black perhaps.
> 
> But there IS a bug with DTM On if you use RGB out, which does raise black for sure. But different to you.


Thanks. No, it wasn't DTM. It's your second case; just Rec709 1080p 4:2:2 in upscaled to Rec 709 4K 4:2:2 out. It's pretty obvious so I'll try to recreate tomorrow or next, see if I can capture in a pic and post.


----------



## Kris Deering

Wonder if it is Darbee? It is a local contrast adjustment, so you never know.


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> Ok I had a look, I dont get raised blacks with 422 In/Out, but I do get it with any kind of 444 out, YcbCr or RGB out and the blacks are raised. Actually this is not raised, its fine in photoshop reads 0:0:0
> 
> 2160 In./Out 422 In / Out
> 
> The red shaded area on the right hand side scope at the bottom is below black, so if you follow across to the bar just before it raises out, thats the reference black bar. Still black here.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 3318131
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, if you are really using 422, I dont see your bug I cannot recreate sorry.
> 
> There is very slight black level height changing on the scopes, though its still reading black on my end, but you can clearly see the true black bar is moving a tad, so you could have other settings pushing it out of black perhaps.
> 
> But there IS a bug with DTM On if you use RGB out, which does raise black for sure. But different to you.


OK, just looked. Easy to recreate on the projector (unfortunately). Oppo Direct 4:2:2 10 bit Rec709 out. LRP Auto1, Auto2, 4 x 2 and 3 x 2 out all show bars 6 and 12 lit up with Reference selected in the projector (Sony 885ES) and at least one projector picture mode that also lights up bar 9. No issues at all when LRP is set to 1080p24 out and the issue is not present with UHD pass through so I wouldn't think it is the cable. For @Kris Deering Darbee off, Sharpness Off.

Thanks for all your work....wonder what it could be but there appears to be a work around (don't upscale) for now.


----------



## Kris Deering

Just to verify, you have all the dynamic modes off in the Sony correct? Javs doing the raw output of the Lumagen is pretty definitive.


----------



## jrp

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> ... I know a few pages back that Jim posted what the target temp should be for a 1U. Can someone remind me please. I think my chip temp was 60 and I lowered the target well below 86 after that discussion. I can't hear any fan noise from my main position.
> 
> Note: I am on beta 050722
> Note: @jrp is there any reason you couldn't provide a dtm global option for sd/hd content, such that all content can be dtm'd at native?


My current recommendation is set MENU->Other->Fan control Minimum Fan Speed as high as you can such that the fan noise is not an issue. We have our Radiance Pro 5348 in a cabinet for the Lumagen Demo Theater and so I set fan speed minimum to 10 since I cannot hear the fan. 

The target for function is 84C or less but as I posted on average the FPGA life doubles for every 15C reduction. So any reduction in fan temperature will on average increase the life of your unit. So I recommend you increase the minimum as much as you can such that at seating location you do not hear the fan when audio is muted. Then press OK and do a Save.

As a side note, in the demo theater I hear the RS4500 projector fan behind me even at mid-laser. So there is no way I could head the Lumagen fan. This is likely the case for most theaters where the projector is in the room, and not in a hush box.

=============== 

Tone Mapping only applies to HDR content. You do not need tone mapping SDR content. The Pro only tone maps HDR content for this reason.


----------



## Kris Deering

jqmn said:


> OK, just looked. Easy to recreate on the projector (unfortunately). Oppo Direct 4:2:2 10 bit Rec709 out. LRP Auto1, Auto2, 4 x 2 and 3 x 2 out all show bars 6 and 12 lit up with Reference selected in the projector (Sony 885ES) and at least one projector picture mode that also lights up bar 9. No issues at all when LRP is set to 1080p24 out and the issue is not present with UHD pass through so I wouldn't think it is the cable. For @Kris Deering Darbee off, Sharpness Off.
> 
> Thanks for all your work....wonder what it could be but there appears to be a work around (don't upscale) for now.


I just looked at the AVS709 disc and the flashing bars pattern and had zero issues with black with the default black setting in the Radiance. So, no issues here at all with scaling applied (similar to Javs results). I also checked HDR black settings out of curiosity using test patterns and saw zero issues with that as well. So again, makes me think there is a setup issue in your projector.


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> Just to verify, you have all the dynamic modes off in the Sony correct? Javs doing the raw output of the Lumagen is pretty definitive.


Yes, thanks. DD is Off. All the NR and settings in the pj like that are off as well.

Edit to your next post. Yes, it is likely something setup but I can't imagine what. Also I don't use HDR in the projector but use DTM of LRP. No issues playing Masciola black pattern through DTM.


----------



## Kris Deering

jqmn said:


> Yes, thanks. DD is Off. All the NR and settings in the pj like that are off as well.
> 
> Edit to your next post. Yes, it is likely something setup but I can't imagine what. Also I don't use HDR in the projector but use DTM of LRP. No issues playing Masciola black pattern through DTM.


What setting are you using for brightness in the Sony in the main setup menu?


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> What setting are you using for brightness in the Sony in the main setup menu?


Brightness set at 50 for both Rec709SDR and BT2020SDR. Dedicated gamma curve for each calibrated to 2.4. Contrast 100 for both, Laser light at 80 for both. Reference preset for Rec709SDR and Cinema 1 for BT2020SDR. No change in cuts/bias but gains may be altered for peak white (I can't remember).


----------



## jrp

We posted the Beta 3 (not to be confused with Beta 2 Fixup 062222).

In addition we should be posting the first part of DTM changes maybe late this week. This is not the desaturation work, or the Dyn Pad changes, but this initial DTM update should help keep dark scenes closer to nit-for-nit and so be brighter.


*
Beta 073122- Posted 080822 Beta 3 of the Pipeline Enhancement update. Fixes a problem on last pixel of right edge of video for 4k50 & 4k60 output modes. Fixes a scaling issue where the bottom line was missing for 1080 in to 4k out of the Pro. Improved downscaling which helps with 4k sources and Pro is sending out 1080p for instance. Output aspect ratio range extended and can now be up to 2.76. Added an option to add some uncommon input aspects -- under Input: Options: Aspect Setup: Aspect Opts: there is a setting Input Aspects used which can be Normal or Extended. Extended adds 1.375 pillarbox, 1.66 pillarbox, 2.10, 2.55 and 2.76 to the list of supported input aspects. Once the extended input aspects are enabled they can be selected via remote (or rs232) with the +10 key followed by 4:3,lbox,16:9,1.85,2.35 or NLS key for 1.33 pillarbox,1.375pillarbox,1.66 pillarbox,2.10,2.55,2.76 respectively. Auto aspect doesn't currently detect the extended input aspects. Other minor bugfixes and improvements. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at support@lumagen.com*


----------



## Naiera

What in the fresh hell is this? I saw it once last Monday and thought my projector's panels or something were giving out (at 3500 hours, of course, they really shouldn't). I haven't seen it since and just as I thought it was gone, it came back. This video obviously proves it's the scaler that's gone off its meds, with the error thing doing weird things to the menu. The projector's menu is not affected. I've seen it three or four times in a short while now, so I'm close to going back to the 2123.






The red stuff is more visible on different sorts of imagery. I've only seen it start on the Apple TV, but it comes along if I switch to, for example, the Mac Mini, which is shown in the video. Rebooting the scaler gets rid of it, but tonight it's come back a few times already.


----------



## Naiera

And I've seen it on different inputs with different cables.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> My current recommendation is set MENU->Other->Fan control Minimum Fan Speed as high as you can such that the fan noise is not an issue. We have our Radiance Pro 5348 in a cabinet for the Lumagen Demo Theater and so I set fan speed minimum to 10 since I cannot hear the fan.
> 
> The target for function is 84C or less but as I posted on average the FPGA life doubles for every 15C reduction. So any reduction in fan temperature will on average increase the life of your unit. So I recommend you increase the minimum as much as you can such that at seating location you do not hear the fan when audio is muted. Then press OK and do a Save.
> 
> As a side note, in the demo theater I hear the RS4500 projector fan behind me even at mid-laser. So there is no way I could head the Lumagen fan. This is likely the case for most theaters where the projector is in the room, and not in a hush box.
> 
> ===============
> 
> Tone Mapping only applies to HDR content. You do not need tone mapping SDR content. The Pro only tone maps HDR content for this reason.


I’ve been in the Lumagen HT and agree. 
I also didn’t hear the projector fan at HT listening levels


----------



## bosler.bruce

shout out for my calibrator.. Ken Whitcomb

Started Saturday afternoon and went through my projector and got most of the way done with the Lumagen, Came back Sunday morning to finish up. Even though I was paying for calibration services, he took the time to explain what he was doing and gave me some lessons on using the projector and Lumagen menus. Well worth the price of admission.. highly recommended.


----------



## DigitalAV

Naiera said:


> What in the fresh hell is this? I saw it once last Monday and thought my projector's panels or something were giving out (at 3500 hours, of course, they really shouldn't). I haven't seen it since and just as I thought it was gone, it came back. This video obviously proves it's the scaler that's gone off its meds, with the error thing doing weird things to the menu. The projector's menu is not affected. I've seen it three or four times in a short while now, so I'm close to going back to the 2123.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The red stuff is more visible on different sorts of imagery. I've only seen it start on the Apple TV, but it comes along if I switch to, for example, the Mac Mini, which is shown in the video. Rebooting the scaler gets rid of it, but tonight it's come back a few times already.


That really sucks, I would try-

1. Unplug everything & leave the LRP like that overnight

2. Plug in power & USB only, redownload latest stable & set up the firmware update but don't hit start

3. Unplug power, restore & click to start update firmware within 10 seconds

4. Once firmware update completely done, unplug power

5. Reconnect everything

Let us know how it goes, good luck bud


----------



## Naiera

This won't lose my calibration(s), will it?

I haven't seen it for a couple of hours now, after it happened maybe four times. Sometimes I'd let it go away by itself and others I'd restart. I turned dithering back on. I never saw it before I turned it off maybe two weeks ago.


----------



## DigitalAV

Naiera said:


> This won't lose my calibration(s), will it?
> 
> I haven't seen it for a couple of hours now, after it happened maybe four times. Sometimes I'd let it go away by itself and others I'd restart. I turned dithering back on. I never saw it before I turned it off maybe two weeks ago.


No, your calibrations will be saved. Indeed maybe live with dithering back on for a bit & see if it reappears


----------



## Naiera

I turned it off because it seemed to fix a different issue that I haven't discussed here; only by email with Jim.


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> What in the fresh hell is this? I saw it once last Monday and thought my projector's panels or something were giving out (at 3500 hours, of course, they really shouldn't). I haven't seen it since and just as I thought it was gone, it came back. This video obviously proves it's the scaler that's gone off its meds, with the error thing doing weird things to the menu. ...


Looks like a DRAM error. This may well be a hardware issue. The unit you have was sold in October of 2016 and so is about 6 years old. I believe you just purchased this unit. If through a Lumagen dealer you can contact them and see what they suggest. If from an individual, you can see if they will pay for the repair if a hardware repair is needed.

There is a chance loading the firmware again using a Boot Mode Update could help if it was an update issue. A Boot Mode Update is like a normal update, but right before clicking Start, remove and restore wall power to the Pro, and then press Start within 10 seconds. Otherwise it is a failure in the unit FPGA or a DDR DRAM.

The vents on your unit are on the back. Make sure there is clearance and cool air at the back of the unit.

You can turn up the fan in case it is a thermal issue (MENU->Other->Fan Control and set minimum speed higher, press OK and then Save. You can check the CHIP (FPGA) and board temperature. Make sure CHIP is below 84C and board should be below 60C.

Please email me a lumagen.com support and we can discuss.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> we should be posting the first part of DTM changes maybe late this week. This is not the desaturation work, or the Dyn Pad changes, but this initial DTM update should help keep dark scenes closer to nit-for-nit and so be brighter.


Thanks Jim...I'll take whatever improvement there is relating to DTM


----------



## Clark Burk

desray2k said:


> Thanks Jim...I'll take whatever improvement there is relating to DTM


Yes thank you Jim. It‘s good to see continued work to make the LRP made even better. DTM for me at least is the first importance followed by upscaling performance. Thanks to Javs too for his help in providing the Lumagen team with insight on where the LRP can possibly be improved.


----------



## Naiera

DigitalAV said:


> That really sucks, I would try-
> 
> 1. Unplug everything & leave the LRP like that overnight
> 
> 2. Plug in power & USB only, redownload latest stable & set up the firmware update but don't hit start
> 
> 3. Unplug power, restore & click to start update firmware within 10 seconds
> 
> 4. Once firmware update completely done, unplug power
> 
> 5. Reconnect everything
> 
> Let us know how it goes, good luck bud





jrp said:


> Looks like a DRAM error. This may well be a hardware issue. The unit you have was sold in October of 2016 and so is about 6 years old. I believe you just purchased this unit. If through a Lumagen dealer you can contact them and see what they suggest. If from an individual, you can see if they will pay for the repair if a hardware repair is needed.
> 
> There is a chance loading the firmware again using a Boot Mode Update could help if it was an update issue. A Boot Mode Update is like a normal update, but right before clicking Start, remove and restore wall power to the Pro, and then press Start within 10 seconds. Otherwise it is a failure in the unit FPGA or a DDR DRAM.
> 
> The vents on your unit are on the back. Make sure there is clearance and cool air at the back of the unit.
> 
> You can turn up the fan in case it is a thermal issue (MENU->Other->Fan Control and set minimum speed higher, press OK and then Save. You can check the CHIP (FPGA) and board temperature. Make sure CHIP is below 84C and board should be below 60C.
> 
> Please email me a lumagen.com support and we can discuss.


Thank you very much for the advice, DAV and Jim. I will attempt a Boot Mode Update later today.


----------



## SJHT

Naiera said:


> Thank you very much for the advice, DAV and Jim. I will attempt a Boot Mode Update later today.


It would be a good idea to download your config in any case. That would also allow you to do a factory reset if they suggest In the future.


----------



## acmcool

Would the faster aspect ratio fix that is planned will address the changing aspect ratios?


----------



## Naiera

SJHT said:


> It would be a good idea to download your config in any case. That would also allow you to do a factory reset if they suggest In the future.


It's a good thing they have that thing called Google, because I had no idea how to do that 

This also allowed me, through trial and error, to find out that it was COM5 that I needed to use.

And now I just got a checksum error. I was using 115k and it tells me to use a slower speed 😵‍💫


----------



## Naiera

And I still get a checksum error with 57.6k speed. Do I even bother trying 14.4k?!


----------



## Naiera

Alright, I managed to finish a regular update with the RS-232 adapter. It just resumed where the USB-attempt failed. Now I'm trying the tricky update again...


----------



## Naiera

RS-232 got past 99% in section 1 🤪


----------



## Clark Burk

I might try another copy of the firmware. You may have a bad file downloaded.


----------



## Naiera

I got it to update, but the error persisted and I have now gone back to 1080 pee with the 2123.


----------



## Naiera

Wait, there's no Auto24 Genlock on the 2123?! 😭


----------



## bosler.bruce

Naiera said:


> I got it to update, but the error persisted and I have now gone back to 1080 pee with the 2123.


maybe I'm wrong and everyone is interested, but isn't this something you should be working on directly with Lumagen instead of posting blow by blow, post after post, of your unique problem here? Or maybe this is the Lumagen support thread and you are where you are supposed to be?


----------



## DigitalAV

bosler.bruce said:


> maybe I'm wrong and everyone is interested, but isn't this something you should be working on directly with Lumagen instead of posting blow by blow, post after post, of your unique problem here? Or maybe this is the Lumagen support thread and you are where you are supposed to be?


Give the poor fella a break, his LRP is busted!


----------



## Javs

bosler.bruce said:


> maybe I'm wrong and everyone is interested, but isn't this something you should be working on directly with Lumagen instead of posting blow by blow, post after post, of your unique problem here? Or maybe this is the Lumagen support thread and you are where you are supposed to be?


Yes, you are wrong.

What is this thread even for if you cannot post your issues and have the community help you. What an unhelpful post, just keep scrolling if you are not interested. Posts like that make people refrain from posting which is the opposite of what a forum should be about.


----------



## Naiera

bosler.bruce said:


> maybe I'm wrong and everyone is interested, but isn't this something you should be working on directly with Lumagen instead of posting blow by blow, post after post, of your unique problem here? Or maybe this is the Lumagen support thread and you are where you are supposed to be?


You may have a point, but you chose the wrong post to quote, because I was just answering another user with that one. I know I did a lot of live updating earlier, but it's done now and the thread shall no longer be contaminated by my AV misfortune.

For now 😈


----------



## bosler.bruce

Naiera said:


> . I know I did a lot of live updating earlier, but it's done now and the thread shall no longer be contaminated by my AV misfortune.


sorry if I was out of line, I do see the value in coming here posting a problem and a solution, just not the blow by blow... so apologies 

is it fixed?


----------



## Naiera

No, it's going for repairs... That I'm not sure I can afford 😵‍💫


----------



## Karl Maga

bosler.bruce said:


> sorry if I was out of line, I do see the value in coming here posting a problem and a solution, just not the blow by blow... so apologies
> 
> is it fixed?


I guarantee you were not the only one thinking that the blow-by-blow was over the top. I also thought you phrased your thoughts on it softly enough that no offense needed to have been taken. 

You were not wrong.


----------



## Michael-S

Naiera said:


> No, it's going for repairs... That I'm not sure I can afford 😵‍💫


Were you aware that the unit was 6 years old when you bought it? Hopefully you paid a reasonable price.

I hope you get a good result in the end. Good luck.


----------



## Jive821

Hello. I was wondering if someone could answer a question for a new user. When using a 4242 with a Sony projector in cms1 and sdr2020, is it recommended to have the projector in what hdr mode?
Off
Auto 
Hdr10

thanks.


----------



## Woof Woof

Jive821 said:


> Hello. I was wondering if someone could answer a question for a new user. When using a 4242 with a Sony projector in cms1 and sdr2020, is it recommended to have the projector in what hdr mode?
> Off
> Auto
> Hdr10
> 
> thanks.


Off


----------



## Naiera

Michael-S said:


> Were you aware that the unit was 6 years old when you bought it? Hopefully you paid a reasonable price.
> 
> I hope you get a good result in the end. Good luck.


I gambled and it would seem that I lost.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Naiera said:


> I gambled and it would seem that I lost.


Lumagen now offers an optional 5 year extended warranty on new and refurbished RP. Discuss with Lumagen. Maybe they can refurbish your unit and get an extended warranty. Doesn’t hurt to ask.


----------



## jrp

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> Lumagen now offers an optional 5 year extended warranty on new and refurbished RP. Discuss with Lumagen. Maybe they can refurbish your unit and get an extended warranty. Doesn’t hurt to ask.


The option for a five year Limited Warranty is from date of original shipment from Lumagen and is available for new sales, and B-Stock sales, only.

[EDIT] If you have a unit within the Limited Warranty period we generally will allow the purchase of the extended Limited Warranty. If you are interested please contact Lumagen.com sales.


----------



## Naiera

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> Lumagen now offers an optional 5 year extended warranty on new and refurbished RP. Discuss with Lumagen. Maybe they can refurbish your unit and get an extended warranty. Doesn’t hurt to ask.


I'm talking to Gordon from Convergent AV about my options. I knew the risk when I bought the unit, though of course I didn't expect it to fail after roughly two months of use. That's not on Gordon, of course, and I would always recommend buying the Lummies from him.


----------



## EVH78

Naiera said:


> I'm talking to Gordon from Convergent AV about my options. I knew the risk when I bought the unit, though of course I didn't expect it to fail after roughly two months of use. That's not on Gordon, of course, and I would always recommend buying the Lummies from him.


If you bought from Gordon then I am 100% positive that he he will work something out for you.


----------



## Michael-S

Naiera said:


> I gambled and it would seem that I lost.


As others are saying, perhaps hope is not yet lost. Many of us would be pleased to see it end well for you.


----------



## Clark Burk

Another way of thinking of this is how many home theater components that you own that are 6 years or older are still serviceable and current state of the art? Probably not too many. I think that says a lot for the LRP and their FPGA architecture. Unfortunately electronic components are prone to failure over time and may require repair. 
That is always the downside of purchasing used gear. You get an often substantial reduction in cost in exchange for the opportunity to own gear that you would likely not buy at the cost of new. I think most owners of gear that they bought used would say they made a wise choice even though sometimes you aren’t as fortunate.


----------



## Naiera

EVH78 said:


> If you bought from Gordon then I am 100% positive that he he will work something out for you.





Michael-S said:


> As others are saying, perhaps hope is not yet lost. Many of us would be pleased to see it end well for you.


We've already I figured it out 👌

In the meantime, I'll catch up on 1080p content 😁


----------



## Michael-S

Naiera said:


> *We've already I figured it out* 👌


Well, of course we now want you to elaborate!


----------



## Naiera

I'm buying a different used model. Really nothing exciting about it 😅 Probably have to sell my Neo Geo, but it's not like I ever found a retro scaling solution for that one I was happy with.


----------



## by96

Hello all,

I am seriously considering buying an LRP, probably a 4242-18G. I am wondering if there would be any problems with this setup:

ATV/PS5/HTPC/Panny/Switch >>> Arcam 40 >>> LRP >>> VRRoom >>> JVC PJ & LG OLED

I already have all video controls off on the Arcam, and I saw in the manual for the LRP that having an AVR before the LRP is fine (assuming all video controls are off). I am more interested in any concerns about outputting the LRP to the VRRoom and then send video signals to my two display devices. My understanding is that the 4242-18G has one 18G output and one audio-only. I know I can get a higher end LRP with multiple 18G outputs, but my budget is more consistent with the 4242-18G model.

Also, while I need to get a video signal to the LG TV, I am not using it for any critical viewing. I am mostly concerned with getting the best picture possible to the JVC. 

Thanks for any feedback!


----------



## jrp

by96 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am seriously considering buying an LRP, probably a 4242-18G. I am wondering if there would be any problems with this setup:
> 
> ATV/PS5/HTPC/Panny/Switch >>> Arcam 40 >>> LRP >>> VRRoom >>> JVC PJ & LG OLED
> 
> I already have all video controls off on the Arcam, and I saw in the manual for the LRP that having an AVR before the LRP is fine (assuming all video controls are off). I am more interested in any concerns about outputting the LRP to the VRRoom and then send video signals to my two display devices. My understanding is that the 4242-18G has one 18G output and one audio-only. I know I can get a higher end LRP with multiple 18G outputs, but my budget is more consistent with the 4242-18G model.
> 
> Also, while I need to get a video signal to the LG TV, I am not using it for any critical viewing. I am mostly concerned with getting the best picture possible to the JVC.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback!


You might consider a Radiance Pro 4242++. It has four 18 GHz inputs, and two 9 GHz outputs. Each output can be independently selected as audio, video, or both. This would allow you to use both outputs for video.

I have done A-to-B testing running HDR source out of the Radiance Pro at 4k60 at 9 GHz (8-bit, 4:2:0) and at 18 GHz (12-bit, 4:2:2) and I cannot see any image quality difference between the two switching back and forth on the toughest scenes I could find using our JVC RS4500 projector. This is because of the Radiance Pro’s excellent output dither. Dithering uses characteristics of the human visual system to make the 8-bit 4k60 at 9 GHz output appear to be the same quality as the higher 12-bit depth of 18 GHz. The 4k60 HDR test is the hardest test case. For example, running 4k24 for movies, both the 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards run at 9 GHz, 12-bit, 4:2:2. So for movies the data bits are identical for both output card types. So, the 18 GHz card cannot have a better picture at 4K24.


----------



## by96

jrp said:


> You might consider a Radiance Pro 4242++. It has four 18 GHz inputs, and two 9 GHz outputs. Each output can be independently selected as audio, video, or both. This would allow you to use both outputs for video.
> 
> I have done A-to-B testing running HDR source out of the Radiance Pro at 4k60 at 9 GHz (8-bit, 4:2:0) and at 18 GHz (12-bit, 4:2:2) and I cannot see any image quality difference between the two switching back and forth on the toughest scenes I could find using our JVC RS4500 projector. This is because of the Radiance Pro’s excellent output dither. Dithering uses characteristics of the human visual system to make the 8-bit 4k60 at 9 GHz output appear to be the same quality as the higher 12-bit depth of 18 GHz. The 4k60 HDR test is the hardest test case. For example, running 4k24 for movies, both the 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards run at 9 GHz, 12-bit, 4:2:2. So for movies the data bits are identical for both output card types. So, the 18 GHz card cannot have a better picture at 4K24.


Thanks for your reply! I will certainly consider the option of the 4242++ when I talk to the dealer next. I assume the price for it would be near the price I was quoted on the 4242-18G.

I am still curious if there would be any problem using the 4242-18G with an HDFury VRRoom. I believe all the HDFury devices can be set to not impact the video in any way. If I could use the VRRoom to split the video, than I cannot think of a reason to not go with the 4242-18G.

Thanks again for your help!


----------



## Peule_P

Naiera said:


> I'm buying a different used model. Really nothing exciting about it 😅 Probably have to sell my Neo Geo, but it's not like I ever found a retro scaling solution for that one I was happy with.


great you found a replacement!

Slightly off topic, but since you mentioned your Neo Geo (AES I assume?), ever looked at the Retrotink 5x? Recently replaced my OSSC and really happy with it!


----------



## jrp

by96 said:


> Thanks for your reply! I will certainly consider the option of the 4242++ when I talk to the dealer next. I assume the price for it would be near the price I was quoted on the 4242-18G.
> 
> I am still curious if there would be any problem using the 4242-18G with an HDFury VRRoom. I believe all the HDFury devices can be set to not impact the video in any way. If I could use the VRRoom to split the video, than I cannot think of a reason to not go with the 4242-18G.
> 
> Thanks again for your help!


The Radiance Pro 4242++ is slightly less than the Radiance Pro 4242-18G.

Using a HDFury to split the 18 GHz output from the Radiance Pro into two HDMI outputs seems a reasonable approach as well.


----------



## jdsutt1

Quick newbie setup question - just got the Lumagen up and running and the image is only taking up part of the screen. I believe the previous owner had a more complex setup but we’re working with a 16:9 screen with an Epson 6050 and want it to auto detect. We have a calibrator coming out to tweak everything but his earliest availability is in September. Before I spend the evening digging through documentation, is there a quick fix to get the image to display normally?


----------



## Clark Burk

I’d suggest you start by doing a factory reset after you have updated the firmware if it’s not up to date. The factory reset will put you back to a clean slate and get rid of any saved settings.


----------



## acmcool

Can I load 5348 configuration onto a 4244?


----------



## jdsutt1

Clark Burk said:


> I’d suggest you start by doing a factory reset after you have updated the firmware if it’s not up to date. The factory reset will put you back to a clean slate and get rid of any saved settings.


That got it back to normal - thanks for the simple fix!


----------



## jrp

acmcool said:


> Can I load 5348 configuration onto a 4244?


This should work but our testing mostly was the 4XXX to the 5XXX configuration copy.

If you have an issue, please email us at lumagen.com support with the downloaded configuration and noting it came from a 5348.


----------



## flashedvirus0

It’s not my imagination. Updating to the latest beta firmware made the image sharper, more detailed. Has anyone else experienced this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## A7mad78

flashedvirus0 said:


> It’s not my imagination. Updating to the latest beta firmware made the image sharper, more detailed. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Indeed it’s the most stable FW since they start to roll out the new pipeline enhancement lot’s of detail appears clean well done


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

A7mad78 said:


> Indeed it’s the most stable FW since they start to roll out the new pipeline enhancement lot’s of detail appears clean well done


Including the alphas, this was the first update in 2+ years that I've hit a likely FPGA timing issue with (I reported to Jim yesterday). I don't get any video output on startup without an Alt+Prev, and so I rolled back to 062222 since my wife and kids kept asking how to fix it even though the Harmony has a big on-screen button labelled "Fix Display" 

Edit: 080722 fixes it!


----------



## KarlKlammer

And there is an issue with the test patterns in beta 3.


----------



## Clark Burk

flashedvirus0 said:


> It’s not my imagination. Updating to the latest beta firmware made the image sharper, more detailed. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can’t say that I have noticed any performance changes on beta 3. Did you update from the last beta 2 or were you on a prior firmware?


----------



## flashedvirus0

Clark Burk said:


> I can’t say that I have noticed any performance changes on beta 3. Did you update from the last beta 2 or were you on a prior firmware?


Updated from Beta 1


----------



## Clark Burk

flashedvirus0 said:


> Updated from Beta 1


Good, I always like to see happy owners. Even if I can't see a difference if you do then that's all that matters. Most of my viewing is with 24p sources and I really wasn't expecting to see much benefit from the pipeline enhancement. I am hoping some tweaking to the DTM brings even better viewing though I'll admit it looks really good now .


----------



## jrp

We are going to post [edit] Beta 3 Fixup [end edit] today. It should be radiance_pro080722. This is a bug fix release (only), and includes fixing the test patterns.

I mentioned we would likely do a fix up for DTM for dark scenes. This was based on reports on the Spiderman in the bar with Mysterio scene. However, when we looked at the scene on an OLED it was slightly darker than it is on the Radiance Pro. So we decided it would not be correct to change the transfer function to make this (and similar) scenes brighter.

There is still a slight brightness change between scene-cuts with the wall sconce light, and the scenes without the sconce light visible. This is one of the issues that has been on our list for well over a year. Since Patrick should now be able to again work on DTM DynPad and desaturation improvements, we hope to be able to improve this.

And yes, for those who have mentioned it, this does include increasing the weight for MaxFALL in the transfer function curves.

As always we appreciate the feedback provided by the Radiance Pro owners. The feedback helps us make the Radiance Pro even better.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> We are going to post Beta 4 today. It should be radiance_pro080722. This is a bug fix release (only), and includes fixing the test patterns.
> 
> I mentioned we would likely do a fix up for DTM for dark scenes. This was based on reports on the Spiderman in the bar with Mysterio scene. *However, when we looked at the scene on an OLED it was slightly darker than it is on the Radiance Pro*. So we decided it would not be correct to change the transfer function to make this (and similar) scenes brighter.
> 
> There is still a slight brightness change between scene-cuts with the wall sconce light, and the scenes without the sconce light visible. This is one of the issues that has been on our list for well over a year. Since Patrick should now be able to again work on DTM DynPad and desaturation improvements, we hope to be able to improve this.


It most certainly cannot be since HDR is encoded absolute this is insanely easy to fact check. 










Lets say I wanted to tone map to 120 nits display.

The Shoulder (dip in the waveform on the left) and far right side of frame is the real issue in that scene, the shoulder is about 0.6 nit encoded which is just about 9IRE at Gamma 2.2 (120 nits white), while to the far left of that on the wall there are some picture frames, they top out around 8-15 nits encoded which would be about 30-40 IRE at gamma 2.2. 

You can get the Lumagen to get the picture frames 'about right' when using some pretty extreme settings IMO something like 20-1-240 LRP DTM Settings (which would not really look great with most other movies full time), but then the shoulder with those settings is topping out at around 5-6 IRE on the scale which is still only something like 0.2 nits. 

20-1-240:










So the shoulder is still 3x darker than any calibrated OLED would be showing it. The right side of frame being about 1-2 nits, same deal that should be about 10IRE at Gamma 2.2 but its about 2x darker than an OLED.

Now of course DTM is not going to be able to simultaneously compress an image and meet these targets, but it most certainly is not objectively brighter than an OLED in the low end of things. If you better weighted FALL then you would be able to more closely meet those targets though while compressing the image more towards the brighter elements and remaining a bit more true to under 10 nits range. This is where this shot looks darker than the preceding parts


----------



## dlinsley

jrp said:


> We are going to post Beta 4 today. It should be radiance_pro080722. This is a bug fix release (only), and includes fixing the test patterns.


I can confirm this also fixes the lack of output issue I had with 073122.


----------



## desray2k

Looking forward to the improved DTM algorithm in Beta 4...


----------



## by96

I am hoping someone can help. Currently, I have an HTPC running JRiver with MadVR as the renderer to play locally stored MKV files. However, in order to apply DTM to my other devices (AppleTV and PS5), which I actually use a lot more than the HTPC, I am on the verge of buying a LRP. However, I still want to be able to play the movies from the HTPC, but am not sure the best method. 

I know I could bypass DTM in the LPR and still use JRiver and MadVR, but what is the best way to bypass DTM in MadVR and allow it to be done in the LPR instead? JRiver, for example, requires a renderer, whether it is MadVR or their own new JRVR. I could use MadVR as the renderer and select HDR pass through, but I prefer to bypass MadVR entirely. However, there appears to be no way to use JRiver without an internal renderer. 

Can I use the HTPC as a source for the LPR by outputting HDR? Does anyone have suggestions for other media players, like Kodi or Plex, that I could still get the JRiver experience but would allow all the video processing to be handled by the LPR? 

Thanks for any input.


----------



## DigitalAV

by96 said:


> I am hoping someone can help. Currently, I have an HTPC running JRiver with MadVR as the renderer to play locally stored MKV files. However, in order to apply DTM to my other devices (AppleTV and PS5), which I actually use a lot more than the HTPC, I am on the verge of buying a LRP. However, I still want to be able to play the movies from the HTPC, but am not sure the best method.
> 
> I know I could bypass DTM in the LPR and still use JRiver and MadVR, but what is the best way to bypass DTM in MadVR and allow it to be done in the LPR instead? JRiver, for example, requires a renderer, whether it is MadVR or their own new JRVR. I could use MadVR as the renderer and select HDR pass through, but I prefer to bypass MadVR entirely. However, there appears to be no way to use JRiver without an internal renderer.
> 
> Can I use the HTPC as a source for the LPR by outputting HDR? Does anyone have suggestions for other media players, like Kodi or Plex, that I could still get the JRiver experience but would allow all the video processing to be handled by the LPR?
> 
> Thanks for any input.


JRiver should have its own in-house renderer with an option to passthrough HDR to the Lumagen, you need a DirectShow renderer no matter what


----------



## by96

DigitalAV said:


> JRiver should have its own in-house renderer with an option to passthrough HDR to the Lumagen, you need a DirectShow renderer no matter what


Thank you! Yes, JRiver's new in-house renderer, JRVR, has an option to pass through HDR. Or they offer a "standard" renderer, which probably has no other options than pass through. I will have to see which one is better. But in either case, I am glad I can continue to use JRiver.


----------



## DigitalAV

by96 said:


> Thank you! Yes, JRiver's new in-house renderer, JRVR, has an option to pass through HDR. That does appear to be the best option. I get to continue to use JRiver (which I really like) but can move DTM and other processing to the LRP. I will just have to make sure all the upscaling and other settings in JRVR are off.


Yes, though up- and downscaling seem to be best using madVR right now according to the comparison thread. Consider still using madVR as your renderer in JRiver but pass HDR through to the Lumagen, might be a pretty good combo! You can still of course use the Lumagen to scale your other sources.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> And yes, for those who have mentioned it, this does include increasing the weight for *MaxFALL* in the transfer function curves.


Should this be FALL and not MaxFALL?


----------



## Woof Woof

by96 said:


> I am hoping someone can help. Currently, I have an HTPC running JRiver with MadVR as the renderer to play locally stored MKV files. However, in order to apply DTM to my other devices (AppleTV and PS5), which I actually use a lot more than the HTPC, I am on the verge of buying a LRP. However, I still want to be able to play the movies from the HTPC, but am not sure the best method.
> 
> I know I could bypass DTM in the LPR and still use JRiver and MadVR, but what is the best way to bypass DTM in MadVR and allow it to be done in the LPR instead? JRiver, for example, requires a renderer, whether it is MadVR or their own new JRVR. I could use MadVR as the renderer and select HDR pass through, but I prefer to bypass MadVR entirely. However, there appears to be no way to use JRiver without an internal renderer.
> 
> Can I use the HTPC as a source for the LPR by outputting HDR? Does anyone have suggestions for other media players, like Kodi or Plex, that I could still get the JRiver experience but would allow all the video processing to be handled by the LPR?
> 
> Thanks for any input.


Have you ever thought of just using the HTPC as a network drive and just use something like a Zidoo or Zappiti media players?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Couple of questions if someone could help please.

1. I think you can enable 256-point gamma / greyscale correction on the Lumagen for the 1D LUT. Any drawbacks to this? I don’t think any software supports it for auto-cal? Any plans in the works?
2. Is ColourSpace as good as Calman for 3D LUT generation? If not, why not?


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> It most certainly cannot be since HDR is encoded absolute this is insanely easy to fact check.
> 
> The Shoulder (dip in the waveform on the left) and far right side of frame is the real issue in that scene, the shoulder is about 0.6 nit encoded which is just about 9IRE at Gamma 2.2 (120 nits white), while to the far left of that on the wall there are some picture frames, they top out around 8-15 nits encoded which would be about 30-40 IRE at gamma 2.2.
> 
> You can get the Lumagen to get the picture frames 'about right' when using some pretty extreme settings IMO something like 20-1-240 LRP DTM Settings (which would not really look great with most other movies full time), but then the shoulder with those settings is topping out at around 5-6 IRE on the scale which is still only something like 0.2 nits.
> 
> So the shoulder is still 3x darker than any calibrated OLED would be showing it. The right side of frame being about 1-2 nits, same deal that should be about 10IRE at Gamma 2.2 but its about 2x darker than an OLED.
> 
> Now of course DTM is not going to be able to simultaneously compress an image and meet these targets, but it most certainly is not objectively brighter than an OLED in the low end of things. If you better weighted FALL then you would be able to more closely meet those targets though while compressing the image more towards the brighter elements and remaining a bit more true to under 10 nits range. This is where this shot looks darker than the preceding parts


I took a look at this a while back on my OLED and I see what the question was regarding your posted pictures being too dim. On a streamed HDR version for my TV, while I didn't get as bright a picture posted by @arsenalfc89 in Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp... ,it is clearly much closer to his shot than your pic. The relative light values are similar to what you are describing but the scene itself is nowhere near as dim as you show. In that scene there are multiple sconces, the bar itself has low light on them, there is an overhead pool table light next to them and there are people seated at windows with (not bright) light coming in each window. Oddly enough I am just starting to watch this film so I haven't yet seen what the LRP does there but will. So my question is if an OLED has the nits well in excess of what that scene requires why would the OLED show the scene so much brighter than what you are posting? Have you, for comparison sake, looked at LG's tone curve and is it just jacked? Thanks.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

NinjaTypeR said:


> Couple of questions if someone could help please.
> 
> 1. I think you can enable 256-point gamma / greyscale correction on the Lumagen for the 1D LUT. Any drawbacks to this? I don’t think any software supports it for auto-cal? Any plans in the works?
> 2. Is ColourSpace as good as Calman for 3D LUT generation? If not, why not?


A little bird answered this over email. Thx guys! 

1. Feature was considered. No longer in pipeline for Lumagen. 
2. ColourSpace all the way.


----------



## MDesigns

jqmn said:


> I took a look at this a while back on my OLED and I see what the question was regarding your posted pictures being too dim. On a streamed HDR version for my TV, while I didn't get as bright a picture posted by @arsenalfc89 in Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp... ,it is clearly much closer to his shot than your pic. The relative light values are similar to what you are describing but the scene itself is nowhere near as dim as you show. In that scene there are multiple sconces, the bar itself has low light on them, there is an overhead pool table light next to them and there are people seated at windows with (not bright) light coming in each window. Oddly enough I am just starting to watch this film so I haven't yet seen what the LRP does there but will. So my question is if an OLED has the nits well in excess of what that scene requires why would the OLED show the scene so much brighter than what you are posting? Have you, for comparison sake, looked at LG's tone curve and is it just jacked? Thanks.


How bright is the display you are looking @Javs screen captures? You need the 120nits to get the proper look.


----------



## jqmn

MDesigns said:


> How bright is the display you are looking @Javs screen captures? You need the 120nits to get the proper look.


I think I lead with I was looking at an OLED...in my case this OLED has a peak 718 nits with various other peaks depending on window size. And yes, more than 120 nits on a sustained 100% window.


----------



## by96

DigitalAV said:


> Yes, though up- and downscaling seem to be best using madVR right now according to the comparison thread. Consider still using madVR as your renderer in JRiver but pass HDR through to the Lumagen, might be a pretty good combo! You can still of course use the Lumagen to scale your other sources.


Thanks for the suggestion! Thankfully, getting the LRP gives me lots of different combinations and options to tryout.


----------



## by96

Woof Woof said:


> Have you ever thought of just using the HTPC as a network drive and just use something like a Zidoo or Zappiti media players?


I have considered it. Rather not add another device to my system at this point but will keep it as an option for the future. 

Thanks for the input!


----------



## Mikesterz

by96 said:


> I have considered it. Rather not add another device to my system at this point but will keep it as an option for the future.
> 
> Thanks for the input!


Just install Plex server on your htpc. Tell Plex server where your movie folder is. Then use a Roku Ultra and Plex app connected through the lumagen. Roku Plex app supports atmos, 4k, hdr, and auto frame rate match.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Mikesterz said:


> Just install Plex server on your htpc. Tell Plex server where your movie folder is. Then use a Roku Ultra and Plex app connected through the lumagen. Roku Plex app supports atmos, 4k, hdr, and auto frame rate match.


Does the Roku and Plex Support 3D movies play?
Thanks.


----------



## Mikesterz

Ash Sharma said:


> Does the Roku and Plex Support 3D movies play?
> Thanks.


I never tried it but can’t see why it wouldn’t


----------



## Peule_P

NinjaTypeR said:


> A little bird answered this over email. Thx guys!
> 
> 1. Feature was considered. No longer in pipeline for Lumagen.
> 2. ColourSpace all the way.


can you elaborate on #2 as I’m currently considering extending/renewing my Calman license.
Why Colourspace, what does it do more/better? And what about ChromaPure as another option?

Might consider either of those if they offer me something ‘better’ down the line


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> I took a look at this a while back on my OLED and I see what the question was regarding your posted pictures being too dim. On a streamed HDR version for my TV, while I didn't get as bright a picture posted by @arsenalfc89 in Video Processors In-Depth Evaluation, Analysis &amp... ,it is clearly much closer to his shot than your pic. The relative light values are similar to what you are describing but the scene itself is nowhere near as dim as you show. In that scene there are multiple sconces, the bar itself has low light on them, there is an overhead pool table light next to them and there are people seated at windows with (not bright) light coming in each window. Oddly enough I am just starting to watch this film so I haven't yet seen what the LRP does there but will. So my question is if an OLED has the nits well in excess of what that scene requires why would the OLED show the scene so much brighter than what you are posting? Have you, for comparison sake, looked at LG's tone curve and is it just jacked? Thanks.


Remember the images I am sharing are not affected by any display they are essentially fully digital domain. If you take them and put them on your display full screen at 120 nits bt2020 and dim the lights it all would look fairly normal. Except it would also be 2x as dim in the problem areas I pointed out vs true HDR passthrough (my whole point on the shots issue with tone mapping).

I have a Panasonic OLED which are more accurate than LG anyways, but regardless, I've shown the HDR waveform is actually brighter than the tone mapped image the lumagen is throwing out. So, yes in HDR it will look brighter. Use the lumagen and unless you use some pretty extreme settings it's going to be far dimmer. 



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

I looked at the clip playing the Dolby Vision grade on my fully calibrated OLED and the scene was quite dark. I told Jim that I did view it mid day so there was some light in the room and that I needed to look at it at night when the room was fully dark, but I didn’t get the chance. The problem with the scene is the scene detection around when he gets the glasses, which is what Lumagen needs to focus on right now. I am on travel for the next week and a half so will not get the chance to look at any of this until I get back.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> I looked at the clip playing the Dolby Vision grade on my fully calibrated OLED and the scene was quite dark. I told Jim that I did view it mid day so there was some light in the room and that I needed to look at it at night when the room was fully dark, but I didn’t get the chance. The problem with the scene is the scene detection around when he gets the glasses, which is what Lumagen needs to focus on right now. I am on travel for the next week and a half so will not get the chance to look at any of this until I get back.


Why dont you look at it in normal HDR though? The Lumagen is not tone mapping dolby vision, it cannot see it. You are trying to tone map whats encoded in the HDR stream. That shot is entirely under 30 nits except for that one light in the background so aside from that, its pretty easy, ideally it would be only really the light that would need to be compressed.


----------



## Jive821

Hello. Could someone educate me on setting contrast on a Sony 4K 1500 lumen projector with the Lumagen pro and HDR sources output into SDR2020 cms1
- my understanding is to set the contrast using the Lumagen white patterns which I did

then with 100% white test pattern with sdr2020 patterns I get about 50 nits at that contrast setting, anything much higher and the whites are crushed.
my understanding is that 48nits is a standard for SDR
but does this change if the source material I am watching is HDR? Or is it just that it is being output in the “SDR container”
I’ve seen in several of your posts that people have higher nits.. and this may be my lack of understanding.. does a brighter projector in the same room yield the ability to obtain higher levels of brightness without crushing the whites.

Thanks for all your help


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Peule_P said:


> can you elaborate on #2 as I’m currently considering extending/renewing my Calman license.
> Why Colourspace, what does it do more/better? And what about ChromaPure as another option?
> 
> Might consider either of those if they offer me something ‘better’ down the line


I was told that purely for 3D LUT, ColourSpace has had the best output.

Just like with anything, one person might take the time to work around some of the issues with the other software and still get as good an output. We’d have to ask a lot of people to know for sure and compare results for different scenarios. 

But ColourSpace has great support so will stick with that…


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Why dont you look at it in normal HDR though? The Lumagen is not tone mapping dolby vision, it cannot see it. You are trying to tone map whats encoded in the HDR stream. That shot is entirely under 30 nits except for that one light in the background so aside from that, its pretty easy, ideally it would be only really the light that would need to be compressed.


I looked at the Dolby Vision grade as it is what the original grade was done in and I don’t have to wonder at all if the panel is doing something it shouldn’t be doing. I wanted to get a sense for what the scene looked like on my OLED to bounce against what I was seeing on the projector. I used to do the same thing A LOT back in the early days of the DTM development of the Lumagen when we were testing different curves and such.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> I looked at the Dolby Vision grade as it is what the original grade was done in and I don’t have to wonder at all if the panel is doing something it shouldn’t be doing. I wanted to get a sense for what the scene looked like on my OLED to bounce against what I was seeing on the projector. I used to do the same thing A LOT back in the early days of the DTM development of the Lumagen when we were testing different curves and such.


Right, well in any case I am not sure how Jim came to the conclusion that Lumagen is brighter in that scene, because according to the HDR encode, it certainly is not unless you use some really silly settings.


----------



## OzHDHT

Ash Sharma said:


> Does the Roku and Plex Support 3D movies play?
> Thanks.


More depends on format. I can't get full bluray 3D format to play out of any version of plex but Side by Side works fine. It's actually quite hard nowadays play my 3D Bluray files back even on my HTPC as Nvidia has lost the Native 3D mode support a while back.


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## MDesigns

jqmn said:


> I think I lead with I was looking at an OLED...in my case this OLED has a peak 718 nits with various other peaks depending on window size. And yes, more than 120 nits on a sustained 100% window.


Thsnks. I wasn't sure if you used the OLED for checking the screencaps too.


----------



## jqmn

MDesigns said:


> Thsnks. I wasn't sure if you used the OLED for checking the screencaps too.


Oh, OK. No, I was just looking at the scene in the movie itself.


----------



## 5mark

Javs said:


> Right, well in any case I am not sure how Jim came to the conclusion that Lumagen is brighter in that scene, because according to the HDR encode, it certainly is not unless you use some really silly settings.


The main issue in that scene is the shots with the light and the shots with the light hidden should be rendered at essentially the same brightness. I think Jim was saying the shots with the light hidden were a little too bright. The challenge for DTM is going to be ignoring one or two random highlights in an otherwise dark scene. Perhaps a shift from measuring the average brightness to measuring the median brightness.


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## Jue Liang

5mark said:


> The main issue in that scene is the shots with the light and the shots with the light hidden should be rendered at essentially the same brightness. I think Jim was saying the shots with the light hidden were a little too bright. The challenge for DTM is going to be ignoring one or two random highlights in an otherwise dark scene. Perhaps a shift from measuring the average brightness to measuring the median brightness.


I agree that the median value is less affected by a few small highlights, but even the average brightness should have not been affected much.


----------



## MDesigns

jqmn said:


> Oh, OK. No, I was just looking at the scene in the movie itself.


Okay, and my point was that the brightness of the display(computer, phone, etc.) used to look at the screencaps when comparing to OLED can make a big difference too. If its 50, 100 or 200 nits it will look different. Javs screencaps are tonemapped at 120nits. If you look those with 200nits display it will look too bright, and equally with a 50nit display far too dark.


----------



## Javs

MDesigns said:


> Okay, and my point was that the brightness of the display(computer, phone, etc.) used to look at the screencaps when comparing to OLED can make a big difference too. If its 50, 100 or 200 nits it will look different. Javs screencaps are tonemapped at 120nits. If you look those with 200nits display it will look too bright, and equally with a 50nit display far too dark.


More importantly the brightness bias on the forum skews it. you need to zoom the image to fill the whole screen and not have any bias colours (white or even grey) behind the image on your computer. Anyway I really shared them for the waveforms. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## jqmn

MDesigns said:


> Okay, and my point was that the brightness of the display(computer, phone, etc.) used to look at the screencaps when comparing to OLED can make a big difference too. If its 50, 100 or 200 nits it will look different. Javs screencaps are tonemapped at 120nits. If you look those with 200nits display it will look too bright, and equally with a 50nit display far too dark.


I had a chance to look at this a sec ago on my projector with the LRP in play. I can't recall exactly but I think I have around 85 nits. The caps that @Javs posted above for both MVR and LRP are still dark and flat compared to what I am seeing on my screen (as I said they did compared to my OLED). Of the many differences I don't have the crush in his suit right shoulder (his right, not ours) and the suit glow strips with their detail stand out a lot more. Based on what you say my screen picture with the lower nits should look even darker but it just doesn't. Quite honestly, what I see on my projector is a lot closer to what I see on my OLED than the Javs' captures and not by a small amount. Admittedly I can only see his posted pics on my PC monitor so that may account for the big perceptual difference. Then again, maybe I have my LRP set up incorrectly but if the point is to compare LRP TM output to something like an OLED I am very happy with what I have and wouldn't swap it for either of the LRP or MVR pictures Javs shows.


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> I had a chance to look at this a sec ago on my projector with the LRP in play. I can't recall exactly but I think I have around 85 nits. The caps that @Javs posted above for both MVR and LRP are still dark and flat compared to what I am seeing on my screen (as I said they did compared to my OLED). Of the many differences I don't have the crush in his suit right shoulder (his right, not ours) and the suit glow strips with their detail stand out a lot more. Based on what you say my screen picture with the lower nits should look even darker but it just doesn't. Quite honestly, what I see on my projector is a lot closer to what I see on my OLED than the Javs' captures and not by a small amount. Admittedly I can only see his posted pics on my PC monitor so that may account for the big perceptual difference. Then again, maybe I have my LRP set up incorrectly but if the point is to compare LRP TM output to something like an OLED I am very happy with what I have and wouldn't swap it for either of the LRP or MVR pictures Javs shows.


I hate to say it, but I am sharing digital realm images, so you could give me your exact LRP settings and I can throw you back the EXACT digital output your Lumagen would be doing, so occams razor is telling me you are not doing apple to apples comparison, you need to put the images I shared on your OLED or Projector at 120 nits in BT2020 with the lights off to see what they are actually meant to look like if you want me to share the full size images without waveform on the side I am happy to.

My PC monitor is my OLED and its always 120 nits so it looks right to me, though slightly dimmer than my OLED doing the same in HDR as I explained earlier.

If you have 85 nits, then you would have to be using different settings, what are they?


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> I hate to say it, but I am sharing digital realm images, so you could give me your exact LRP settings and I can throw you back the EXACT digital output your Lumagen would be doing, so occams razor is telling me you are not doing apple to apples comparison, you need to put the images I shared on your OLED or Projector at 120 nits in BT2020 with the lights off to see what they are actually meant to look like if you want me to share the full size images without waveform on the side I am happy to.
> 
> My PC monitor is my OLED and its always 120 nits so it looks right to me, though slightly dimmer than my OLED doing the same in HDR as I explained earlier.
> 
> If you have 85 nits, then you would have to be using different settings, what are they?


I'll have to get the LRP setting when I use it next but will be happy to do so.


----------



## jqmn

jqmn said:


> I'll have to get the LRP setting when I use it next but will be happy to do so.


@Javs 

Yes, of course it isn't a-a but it is what I see on my projector and OLED. I can't do projector at 120 nits; just don't have the ability and since it is off the ceiling I can't pull it and move it to three feet or something. Here are my settings-- My LRP settings are LR=33 DP=3 DS=Med GM=400 EFM=83/400 If there is something else I should look at happy to do so.


----------



## by96

In anticipation of my forthcoming LRP, I am trying to figure out a set-up. Currently, I am using a VRRoom with JVC Macros (via Apex software in a RPi) to control the pictures modes on a JVC RS1000. For those that don't know, the VRRoom, like the Vertex2, detects the incoming signal and changes to the chosen Picture Mode on the PJ. It is able to distinguish between incoming SDR2020 (e.g., HTPC with MadVR), SDR709 (e.g., SDR content on ATV), and HDR (e.g., HDR content on AVT) signals. 

My plan has been to nix the VRRoom from my set-up once I got the LRP. (I was originally going to keep the VRRoom in the system to output the one LRP 18G output to both the JVC and a TV, but had decided to just connect the TV to the second video output on the AVR.) I know I can set the LRP to send an HDR Flag to put the JVC in HDR, but my SDR2020 custom mode is actually an SDR mode, though I calibrated it on High Lamp, so the flag won't trigger it. 

So, here are my ideas so far...

Option #1: I know that the LRP can convert SDR709 to SDR2020, so I could output all video as SDR2020 and leave the JVC in that custom mode all the time. However, that would mean the PJ is always in High Lamp. Up to now, I have watched SDR709 material in Low Lamp, which saves lamp life. 

Option #2: If I keep the two custom modes on the JVC and set the LRP Colorspace to Auto, I can manually switch the JVC between the custom modes, something I can do but have gotten use to not having to do. (I can easily program a custom button on my C4 remote.) 

Option #3: I could keep the VRRoom in-between the LRP and JVC and continue to use the Macros and Apex. I know fewer HDMI devices is better, but the VRRoom can be set to not make any changes to the pathway. This way, I can keep my auto switching. 

I am wondering if I am missing another option or if anyone has strong feelings about the best option above. 

Thanks for any help. Glad to see such an active group here!!


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> @Javs
> 
> Yes, of course it isn't a-a but it is what I see on my projector and OLED. I can't do projector at 120 nits; just don't have the ability and since it is off the ceiling I can't pull it and move it to three feet or something. Here are my settings-- My LRP settings are LR=33 DP=3 DS=Med GM=400 EFM=83/400 If there is something else I should look at happy to do so.


I checked yours and they are not really profoundly different to what ive shared before...












Spoiler















You just cant really look at them on a PC monitor then, and also remember these are BT2020 images. They will pop a lot more and look less flat when you actually look at them in BT2020 in a dark room.

So, these are the images the Lumagen produces with said settings. MadVR is not really super brighter either, but it definitely is a bit brighter without even changing the normal DTM settings.


----------



## mikela

by96 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In anticipation of my forthcoming LRP, I am trying to figure out a set-up. Currently, I am using a VRRoom with JVC Macros (via Apex software in a RPi) to control the pictures modes on a JVC RS1000. For those that don't know, the VRRoom, like the Vertex2, detects the incoming signal and changes to the chosen Picture Mode on the PJ. It is able to distinguish between incoming SDR2020 (e.g., HTPC with MadVR), SDR709 (e.g., SDR content on ATV), and HDR (e.g., HDR content on AVT) signals.
> 
> My plan has been to nix the VRRoom from my set-up once I got the LRP. (I was originally going to keep the VRRoom in the system to output the one LRP 18G output to both the JVC and a TV, but had decided to just connect the TV to the second video output on the AVR.) know I can set the LRP to send an HDR Flag to put the JVC in HDR, but my SDR2020 custom mode is actually an SDR mode, though I calibrated it on High Lamp, so the flag won't trigger it.
> 
> So, here are my ideas so far...
> 
> Option #1: I know that the LRP can convert SDR709 to SDR2020, so I could output all video as SDR2020 and leave the JVC in that custom mode all the time. However, that would mean the PJ is always in High Lamp. Up to now, I have watched SDR709 material in Low Lamp, which saves lamp life.
> 
> Option #2: If I keep the two custom modes on the JVC and set the LRP Colorspace to Auto, I can manually switch the JVC between the custom modes, something I can do but have gotten use to not having to do. (I can easily program a custom button on my C4 remote.)
> 
> Option #3: I could keep the VRRoom in-between the LRP and JVC and continue to use the Macros and Apex. I know fewer HDMI devices is better, but the VRRoom can be set to not make any changes to the pathway. This way, I can keep my auto switching.
> 
> I am wondering if I am missing another option or if anyone has strong feelings about the best option above.
> 
> Thanks for any help. Glad to see such an active group here!!



I'm using a Vertex to switch between SDR and SDRP3 as in your Option 3. Works well for me. It allows me to use High Bright for both calibrations.


----------



## by96

mikela said:


> I'm using a Vertex to switch between SDR and SDRP3 as in your Option 3. Works well for me. It allows me to use High Bright for both calibrations.


Thank you! And I assume the Vertex comes after the LRP in your chain?


----------



## mikela

by96 said:


> Thank you! And I assume the Vertex comes after the LRP in your chain?


Yes. Between the RS4100 and the LRP with the RS232 cable plugged into the projector.


----------



## acmcool

I am thinking about doing movable anamorphic lense setup. But that would mean brightness would be higher for 16:9.is there way to setup different profiles? Or any other way to achieve this


----------



## OzHDHT

acmcool said:


> I am thinking about doing movable anamorphic lense setup. But that would mean brightness would be higher for 16:9.is there way to setup different profiles? Or any other way to achieve this


I have a DCR and DCR-C in my two JVC setups and in all honesty with the LRP and auto aspect, I can't be bothered with the idea of the A-lens moving out for 16:9. I think your brightness difference would be very negligible though.


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> I checked yours and they are not really profoundly different to what ive shared before...
> 
> You just cant really look at them on a PC monitor then, and also remember these are BT2020 images. They will pop a lot more and look less flat when you actually look at them in BT2020 in a dark room.
> 
> So, these are the images the Lumagen produces with said settings. MadVR is not really super brighter either, but it definitely is a bit brighter without even changing the normal DTM settings.


Thank-you. If I understand this correctly the pic you posted is the LRP ouput based on my settings as captured digitally and the variance to what I see on my end should only be influenced by CS, gamma and peak white. I looked at the picture both on my PC (2.2, sRGB) and my OLED (2.4 709 and 2020) in a dark room. I also loaded the disc on my OLED. Your pic doesn't really change much in viewing from what I described earlier against my projector and OLED-- his right sleeve below the chest plate strap is still crushed as is his right side hair. The suit itself is still too dull; it is missing most of its burnished reflectance even in the lower light bar environment and is still pretty matte. The only thing I can conclude is that the images as I view them on AVS are not representative of what I see on either my OLED (the disc or stream) and my projector (LRP disc). My OLED and projector still look a lot closer to one another. I am not saying your image is bad; I am saying something is perhaps being lost in translation somehow from what I see your cap to be on AVS as well as your cap when I take it and play it compared to my OLED and projector. I don't know what this could be.


----------



## patcub

by96 said:


> In anticipation of my forthcoming LRP, I am trying to figure out a set-up. Currently, I am using a VRRoom with JVC Macros (via Apex software in a RPi) to control the pictures modes on a JVC RS1000. For those that don't know, the VRRoom, like the Vertex2, detects the incoming signal and changes to the chosen Picture Mode on the PJ. It is able to distinguish between incoming SDR2020 (e.g., HTPC with MadVR), SDR709 (e.g., SDR content on ATV), and HDR (e.g., HDR content on AVT) signals.
> 
> My plan has been to nix the VRRoom from my set-up once I got the LRP. (I was originally going to keep the VRRoom in the system to output the one LRP 18G output to both the JVC and a TV, but had decided to just connect the TV to the second video output on the AVR.) I know I can set the LRP to send an HDR Flag to put the JVC in HDR, but my SDR2020 custom mode is actually an SDR mode, though I calibrated it on High Lamp, so the flag won't trigger it.
> 
> So, here are my ideas so far...
> 
> Option #1: I know that the LRP can convert SDR709 to SDR2020, so I could output all video as SDR2020 and leave the JVC in that custom mode all the time. However, that would mean the PJ is always in High Lamp. Up to now, I have watched SDR709 material in Low Lamp, which saves lamp life.
> 
> Option #2: If I keep the two custom modes on the JVC and set the LRP Colorspace to Auto, I can manually switch the JVC between the custom modes, something I can do but have gotten use to not having to do. (I can easily program a custom button on my C4 remote.)
> 
> Option #3: I could keep the VRRoom in-between the LRP and JVC and continue to use the Macros and Apex. I know fewer HDMI devices is better, but the VRRoom can be set to not make any changes to the pathway. This way, I can keep my auto switching.
> 
> I am wondering if I am missing another option or if anyone has strong feelings about the best option above.
> 
> Thanks for any help. Glad to see such an active group here!!


I have a similar setup with a JVC RS2000 and a Lumagen 4242-18G. I also like to have the projector automatically go into high lamp mode for HDR content and stay in low lamp mode for non HDR content. You need to output everything from the projector as SDR2020, whether it is SDR709 or SDR2020 for non HDR content from CMS0 or SDR2020 for HDR content from CMS1. This is basically your option 1 but with some extra steps so you only go to high lamp mode with HDR content.

For CMS 0 (non HDR content) this will be pretty straight forward since the JVC will choose the Auto SDR mode and you just need to set it to low lamp and pick a gamma value. In CMS1 (HDR content) you need to tell the Lumagen to flag the output with the HDR flag. This will kick the JVC into the Auto HDR picture mode. In the Auto HDR picture mode you need to change it to a User 4, 5, or 6 mode, and set it to high lamp mode. Then in the tone mapping menu for the User mode select one of the custom tone mapping modes, and then in the correction value menu select “import”. This disables all tone mapping on the projector and uses a gamma value instead of a PQ curve. You can’t pick which gamma value from this menu but can if you do a JVC autocal. The default looked pretty good to my eyes.

Hopefully this helps with what you're looking for. This way you get to keep auto switching, don't have to keep the high lamp on all the time, and get all the benefits from the Lumagen tone mapping.


----------



## by96

patcub said:


> I have a similar setup with a JVC RS2000 and a Lumagen 4242-18G. I also like to have the projector automatically go into high lamp mode for HDR content and stay in low lamp mode for non HDR content. You need to output everything from the projector as SDR2020, whether it is SDR709 or SDR2020 for non HDR content from CMS0 or SDR2020 for HDR content from CMS1. This is basically your option 1 but with some extra steps so you only go to high lamp mode with HDR content.
> 
> For CMS 0 (non HDR content) this will be pretty straight forward since the JVC will choose the Auto SDR mode and you just need to set it to low lamp and pick a gamma value. In CMS1 (HDR content) you need to tell the Lumagen to flag the output with the HDR flag. This will kick the JVC into the Auto HDR picture mode. In the Auto HDR picture mode you need to change it to a User 4, 5, or 6 mode, and set it to high lamp mode. Then in the tone mapping menu for the User mode select one of the custom tone mapping modes, and then in the correction value menu select “import”. This disables all tone mapping on the projector and uses a gamma value instead of a PQ curve. You can’t pick which gamma value from this menu but can if you do a JVC autocal. The default looked pretty good to my eyes.
> 
> Hopefully this helps with what you're looking for. This way you get to keep auto switching, don't have to keep the high lamp on all the time, and get all the benefits from the Lumagen tone mapping.


This is extremely helpful. I will need to read it a few times, especially after the LRP arrives, to get a full understanding. Thank you so much!


----------



## Naiera

I was in the same boat two or three months ago. There's a lot to wrap your head around


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

An invaluable reference is the Lumagen powerpoint document that gives setup tips. The link has been posted numerous times in this thread. You will find it last posted about a month ago or so.


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> Thank-you. If I understand this correctly the pic you posted is the LRP ouput based on my settings as captured digitally and the variance to what I see on my end should only be influenced by CS, gamma and peak white. I looked at the picture both on my PC (2.2, sRGB) and my OLED (2.4 709 and 2020) in a dark room. I also loaded the disc on my OLED. Your pic doesn't really change much in viewing from what I described earlier against my projector and OLED-- his right sleeve below the chest plate strap is still crushed as is his right side hair. The suit itself is still too dull; it is missing most of its burnished reflectance even in the lower light bar environment and is still pretty matte. The only thing I can conclude is that the images as I view them on AVS are not representative of what I see on either my OLED (the disc or stream) and my projector (LRP disc). My OLED and projector still look a lot closer to one another. I am not saying your image is bad; I am saying something is perhaps being lost in translation somehow from what I see your cap to be on AVS as well as your cap when I take it and play it compared to my OLED and projector. I don't know what this could be.


Its definitely not crushed, there is plenty of shadow detail there.










Its a 0.65% ADL Shot.











I installed the newest beta last night and took a few shots (with a camera). I got no problems with what this is doing I guess its perceptually close enough, I think this was still your settings.

3 pics, OLED HDR, MadVR, Lumagen.


----------



## jdsutt1

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> An invaluable reference is the Lumagen powerpoint document that gives setup tips. The link has been posted numerous times in this thread. You will find it last posted about a month ago or so.


Found for ease of reference for anyone looking: New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


----------



## by96

Thank you for the assistance I have gotten so far on this thread. I ordered a 4244-18G today and am excited to get it. However, I am torn between the best set-up option. I have attached layouts for each option.

Option #1 uses my Arcam AV40 for switching input devices, but eliminates the need for any other device (e.g., VRRoom).

Option #2 does the switching inside the LRP, but requires the VRRoom (which I already have) to split the video to the PJ and TV. If I go with Option #2, I can still use JVC Macros (which I asked about previously) to control the PJ picture modes.

I would really appreciate input as to the "better" option, if there is better choice.


----------



## wongikmg

jrp said:


> One possible solution:
> 
> Both outputs on the 5244 can have video. For output 1, which by default is audio only, go into the output->Output Setup->2D menu, select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for Input modes, and then change Output 1 (The digit 1 under the word Enable at the far right) to "B" for both. Press OK, then EXIT, then do a Save.


Dear Jim,

I have followed you steps.
However I am not able to enable Video out from Output1.
Kindly refer to the following screenshot.
1) output->Output Setup->2D menu, select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for Input modes, and then change Output 1 (The digit 1 under the word Enable at the far right) to "B" for both









IMG_7470.JPG







drive.google.com





2) Press OK, then EXIT, then do a Save









IMG_7475.JPG







drive.google.com





Can you advise what step I may have missed?

Looking forward to your prompt reply.

Regards
WIM


----------



## Vinturbo

Hi, the output 1 is audio only


----------



## woofer

Javs said:


> I *installed the newest beta last night and took a few shots (with a camera). I got no problems with what this is doing* I guess its perceptually close enough, I think this was still your settings.
> 
> 3 pics, OLED HDR, MadVR, Lumagen.
> 
> View attachment 3321525
> 
> 
> View attachment 3321526
> 
> 
> View attachment 3321527


Well actually i do...installed the latest Beta tonight and overall i am seeing a "Flatter" less dynamic image overall ???


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> Its definitely not crushed, there is plenty of shadow detail there.
> 
> 
> Its a 0.65% ADL Shot.
> 
> View attachment 3321524
> 
> 
> 
> I installed the newest beta last night and took a few shots (with a camera). I got no problems with what this is doing I guess its perceptually close enough, I think this was still your settings.
> 
> 3 pics, OLED HDR, MadVR, Lumagen.
> 
> View attachment 3321525
> 
> 
> View attachment 3321526
> 
> 
> View attachment 3321527


Thank-you that is very helpful! Pic 1 (the cap) on my screen is still problematic and doesn't match 2, 3, or 4 but those last three are a lot closer to what I am seeing. Mine is a little darker maybe due to gamma 2.4 (does MVR still use 2.2?) with more pop off the suit and chevron-like design. On my display I see your Pic 4 (LRP) to be less red in the facial skin tones than 2 or 3. I know it is very hard to get photo compares given calibration and settings between us but at least we are in the ballpark now. Thanks again.


----------



## Clark Burk

woofer said:


> Well actually i do...installed the latest Beta tonight and overall i am seeing a "Flatter" less dynamic image overall ???


Interesting because I don't think anything was done to the tone mapping in this last beta, just bug fixes at least according to the firmware summary. Perhaps Jim can say more. Are you referring to the changes in Beta 073122 to Beta 080722?


----------



## Kris Deering

Zero changes to tone mapping


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> Thank-you that is very helpful! Pic 1 (the cap) on my screen is still problematic and doesn't match 2, 3, or 4 but those last three are a lot closer to what I am seeing. Mine is a little darker maybe due to gamma 2.4 (does MVR still use 2.2?) with more pop off the suit and chevron-like design. On my display I see your Pic 4 (LRP) to be less red in the facial skin tones than 2 or 3. I know it is very hard to get photo compares given calibration and settings between us but at least we are in the ballpark now. Thanks again.


Because my images are bt2020 screenshots at 2.2 gamma. 

No point trying to troubleshoot it could be 50 things. 

I've compared my (digital) screen shots to the actual live lumagen output on my screen and when I do you cannot tell which one is a screenshot and which is the lumagen, so my suggestion, don't get too caught up on it but there is something in your setup stopping you seeing a 1:1 rendition of my shots. 

The photos are not worth comparing to the screen shots, I only pulled out a camera to show you that taking a photo of the screen in ideal light looks way different and a bit closer to what's been shared by people here, but also because it was easy enough to chuck the actual HDR shot in there. By the way it was all same exposure etc.

The saturation difference is real, there is no calibration to mess up it's all just bt2020 output. Madvr and lumagen are set to 2.2 gamma. Desat was off too, it's too dim to warrant desat anyway. 

Anyway, move on. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

woofer said:


> Well actually i do...installed the latest Beta tonight and overall i am seeing a "Flatter" less dynamic image overall ???


The latest beta didn't touch dtm, my waveforms are identical. 

What I meant was it being a bit dimmer than the HDR version, it's probably nothing drastic like for eg the other stuff we have found which really does ask for a much brighter image like mountain between us etc. 



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## bosler.bruce

wongikmg said:


> Dear Jim,
> 
> I have followed you steps.
> However I am not able to enable Video out from Output1.





Vinturbo said:


> Hi, the output 1 is audio only


Why would Jim give instructions to enable it if it isn't possible?
I have video out of my 5244 to a second monitor following those instructions so I can see DVD and Apple TV menus without having my projector on.


----------



## dlinsley

<Deleted>


----------



## jrp

wongikmg said:


> Dear Jim,
> 
> I have followed you steps.
> However I am not able to enable Video out from Output1.
> Kindly refer to the following screenshot.
> 1) output->Output Setup->2D menu, select All for inputs, All for memories, and All for Input modes, and then change Output 1 (The digit 1 under the word Enable at the far right) to "B" for both


Note: This post is concerning the Radiance Pro 5244 Output 1 video output capability.

Make sure the video TV/projector on output 1 is 4k and HDCP 2.2 capable.

It is possible a bug crept in and output 1 on the 5244 is no longer working for video. I am having a 5244 built and will check this out today and report back.


----------



## bosler.bruce

Have you actually tried the output to see if you have video or just going by the fact it says OFF. Mine says OFF but works




jrp said:


> It is possible a bug crept in and output 1 on the 5244 is no longer working for video. I am having a 5244 built and will check this out today and report back.


here are the screen shots from the second monitor... Lumagen 5244 >> out1 >> fiber >> Trinnov >> monitor... It says video off but there it is


----------



## Vinturbo

bosler.bruce said:


> Why would Jim give instructions to enable it if it isn't possible?
> I have video out of my 5244 to a second monitor following those instructions so I can see DVD and Apple TV menus without having my projector on.


Excuse me, I was sure you had 5348, I didn't read correctly which model you have


----------



## jrp

jrp said:


> Note: This post is concerning the Radiance Pro 5244 Output 1 video output capability.
> 
> Make sure the video TV/projector on output 1 is 4k and HDCP 2.2 capable.
> 
> It is possible a bug crept in and output 1 on the 5244 is no longer working for video. I am having a 5244 built and will check this out today and report back.


I just tested the 5244 Output 1. I enabled Output 1 for both video and audio, pressed OK to enable and then EXIT to activate. I got video without any issues.

As bosler.bruce noted there is an issue in the report on Info Pg 1 is not correct once video is enabled on Output 1. This is a reporting error that is likely a hold over from the 5348 Output 1 being an audio only output. We will work on this.

If you have a device on Output 2 with video you can see, put the second TV/projector on Output 1, and then post a picture of Info Pg 1 and Info Pg 2 (press OK, take picture, repeat). Info Pg 2 reports if the Pro sees the device on Output 1 as a HDCP 2.2 4k capable device.

Note: The 5244 Output 1 is 9 GHz maximum.


----------



## woofer

Javs said:


> The latest beta didn't touch dtm, my waveforms are identical.
> 
> What I meant was it being a bit dimmer than the HDR version, it's probably nothing drastic like for eg the other stuff we have found which really does ask for a much brighter image like mountain between us etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


It turns out my FPGA has* HUGE issues* with this release...First time i have had a complete no go in my unit with a firmware release ! ( Have reported to Jim)


----------



## D_B_0673

When I perform a calibration for example on input 3 and I want to save it to all imputs...
do I scroll to input-copy-all or do I use output-copy-all memories, or do I do both
thanks in advance
dan


----------



## woofer

Clark Burk said:


> Interesting because I don't think anything was done to the tone mapping in this last beta, just bug fixes at least according to the firmware summary. Perhaps Jim can say more. Are you referring to the changes in Beta 073122 to Beta 080722?


See my latest post @Clark Burk @Kris Deering


----------



## jrp

woofer said:


> It turns out my FPGA has* HUGE issues* with this release...First time i have had a complete no go in my unit with a firmware release ! ( Have reported to Jim)


So far I think one or two others have reported issues with the latest Beta. So it seems unit specific.

The FPGA tools said the timing on the latest release is excellent, but the tools are not perfect.

We should be doing another FPGA release in the next one to two weeks. If anyone has issues with the latest, you can revert to an earlier Beta. Then please email me at lumagen.com support email so we know if this is a corner case issue or a common issue.


----------



## Clark Burk

woofer said:


> See my latest post @Clark Burk @Kris Deering


I saw it. Hopefully like Jim said the next release works better for you. Do you think reverting back to a prior firmware and reloading the 080722 firmware would perhaps work? It seems these FPGAs can get a bit finicky. I wonder if this will become more of an issue as more of the capacity of the FPGA is used. I’ll be honest, understanding the FPGA timings issue is way over my comprehension ability.


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Because my images are bt2020 screenshots at 2.2 gamma.
> 
> No point trying to troubleshoot it could be 50 things.
> 
> I've compared my (digital) screen shots to the actual live lumagen output on my screen and when I do you cannot tell which one is a screenshot and which is the lumagen, so my suggestion, don't get too caught up on it but there is something in your setup stopping you seeing a 1:1 rendition of my shots.
> 
> The photos are not worth comparing to the screen shots, I only pulled out a camera to show you that taking a photo of the screen in ideal light looks way different and a bit closer to what's been shared by people here, but also because it was easy enough to chuck the actual HDR shot in there. By the way it was all same exposure etc.
> 
> The saturation difference is real, there is no calibration to mess up it's all just bt2020 output. Madvr and lumagen are set to 2.2 gamma. Desat was off too, it's too dim to warrant desat anyway.
> 
> Anyway, move on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


Lumagen is not designed for a 2.2 gamma base. It is designed for 2.4 gamma as the baseline for the tone map.


----------



## wongikmg

jrp said:


> I just tested the 5244 Output 1. I enabled Output 1 for both video and audio, pressed OK to enable and then EXIT to activate. I got video without any issues.
> 
> As bosler.bruce noted there is an issue in the report on Info Pg 1 is not correct once video is enabled on Output 1. This is a reporting error that is likely a hold over from the 5348 Output 1 being an audio only output. We will work on this.
> 
> If you have a device on Output 2 with video you can see, put the second TV/projector on Output 1, and then post a picture of Info Pg 1 and Info Pg 2 (press OK, take picture, repeat). Info Pg 2 reports if the Pro sees the device on Output 1 as a HDCP 2.2 4k capable device.
> 
> Note: The 5244 Output 1 is 9 GHz maximum.



Dear Jim,

My display Device that is connect to 5244 Output 1 is LG AU810PB 4K HDR PJ.
My Source player is a Oppo 205. I use Planet Earth 2 UHD disc as the video media.
Processor is a Trinnov A32.

Oppo205 --> Trinnov HDMI in 1 / Trinnov HDMI Out 2 -> LG PJ. The video playback is flawless.










When I connect the LG PJ to LRP 5244 Output 1, the video playback is bad.
(OPPO205->LPR HDMI in 1-> LPR HDMI Out 1-> LG PJ)





























Can you advise me what I have done wrong?

I reinstalled the latest firmware successfully. There is no change in bad display from Output 1.

Please advise how I can troubleshoot the problem.


Regards
WIM


----------



## bosler.bruce

wongikmg said:


> Can you advise me what I have done wrong?
> 
> I reinstalled the latest firmware successfully. There is no change in bad display from Output 1.


I had a similar issue with the Trinnov and 5244. With the HDMI input set to 2.0 on the Trinnov I got the weird colors on both displays when I started it up. If I switched inputs on the Lumagen a few times it would clear up. When I change the Trinnov to 1.4 it starts up normally. Not exactly what you describe but easy enough to try


----------



## Blackdevil77

Quick question. More and more releases seem to use a shifting aspect ratio lately and I have a 2.39:1 screen. Shifting aspect ratios are horrible on a 2.39:1 screen, when it shifts from 16:9 to 2.39:1, the image on the screen uses maybe 60% of the screen.
Does the Lumagen have a way of fixing this when using with a 2.39:1 screen?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Blackdevil77 said:


> Quick question. More and more releases seem to use a shifting aspect ratio lately and I have a 2.39:1 screen. Shifting aspect ratios are horrible on a 2.39:1 screen, when it shifts from 16:9 to 2.39:1, the image on the screen uses maybe 60% of the screen.
> Does the Lumagen have a way of fixing this when using with a 2.39:1 screen?


I just turn off auto aspect and leave it on 2:39. Then I don’t see any aspect changes.


----------



## thebland

Blackdevil77 said:


> Quick question. More and more releases seem to use a shifting aspect ratio lately and I have a 2.39:1 screen. Shifting aspect ratios are horrible on a 2.39:1 screen, when it shifts from 16:9 to 2.39:1, the image on the screen uses maybe 60% of the screen.
> Does the Lumagen have a way of fixing this when using with a 2.39:1 screen?


Yep *Too Gun Maverick* come out next week on K and digital. It has multiple aspects. What are the button presses to ‘sticky’ 2.39 for the one viewing? Thanks!


----------



## Kris Deering

Just press the aspect you want to lock on the remote when the movie starts. If you have auto aspect on, it will go back to auto after the movie ends.


----------



## jrp

Javs pointed out a Chroma shift issue in the Radiance Pro firmware (thanks Javs). We have confirmed this in the lab.

Patrick is working to resolve the various Chroma shift cases, which vary based on input resolution, output resolution, input format and output format. Patrick says he has some of the cases resolved but other cases still need more work.

We do not know how long this will take, but we should have the Chroma shift improvements in the next release.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Javs pointed out a Chroma shift issue in the Radiance Pro firmware (thanks Javs). We have confirmed this in the lab.
> 
> Patrick is working to resolve the various Chroma shift cases, which vary based on input resolution, output resolution, input format and output format. Patrick says he has some of the cases resolved but other cases still need more work.
> 
> We do not know how long this will take, but we should have the Chroma shift improvements in the next release.


Excellent.


----------



## desray2k

Javs said:


> Excellent.


Hi Jav, mind sharing what instances you saw this chroma shift? I can only assume it must be quite subtle?


----------



## Javs

desray2k said:


> Hi Jav, mind sharing what instances you saw this chroma shift? I can only assume it must be quite subtle?


Literally everywhere particularly red objects is where you will definitely see it though, but you may not even know unless you have a known version which does not shift. It affects the entire image all the time, its subtle on thepixel level yes, but its kinda like having a convergence error inside the lumagen. The Oppo actually has the error too, but Lumagen takes that and also shifts it in a completely different direction, so thats a two pronged issue, ideally Oppo would need to fix this too, Kris emailed a contact he has there to see if they can. He also bought the Pana 820 and that does not have the chroma shift issue.


----------



## desray2k

Javs said:


> Literally everywhere particularly red objects is where you will definitely see it though, but you may not even know unless you have a known version which does not shift. It affects the entire image all the time, its subtle on thepixel level yes, but its kinda like having a convergence error inside the lumagen. The Oppo actually has the error too, but Lumagen takes that and also shifts it in a completely different direction, so thats a two pronged issue, ideally Oppo would need to fix this too, Kris emailed a contact he has there to see if they can. He also bought the Pana 820 and that does not have the chroma shift issue.


Now that you mentioned...I will have to take a look at it. Any scene in mind or static image that makes this "chroma shift" manifest its ugly head?


----------



## Javs

desray2k said:


> Now that you mentioned...I will have to take a look at it. Any scene in mind or static image that makes this "chroma shift" manifest its ugly head?


The thing is its about 1px, so you are simply not going to know, but as I have been doing a bit of an in depth shootout for a while now, I can easily see it in my comparison images, but here is one, Alien Covenant.

Just rollover the mouse and look at the red lights on his suit. Also, the Lumagen is shifting the actual image here about 1px too, even though they fixed something, I will need to dig deeper into that, but something else is also happening with the latest betas.

Here, DTM on. Once it all loads, move your mouse on and off the screen really fast, you will see the red lights dancing.






Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





And here DTM off from beta 062222, now you will see the red light barely moving. So, right now there is a bit of a dance you need to do to make it shift, certain scenarios and such as its not the same shift with certain conditions.






Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com







*Jim I actually maybe found another bug*, I emailed, you know how you fixed that stray line of pixels down the right hand side? Well it looks like Pat just erased the line and the whole image is now being scaled horizontally by 1-2px now. if you look at the DTM On comparison above, you will see the whole image moving to the right.

0602222 beta DTM Off vs Current beta DTM on. Image shifting right.





__





Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





More importantly, Raw HDR Frame vs 062222 - Here the overall image position is perfect vs the reference raw frame, but the right pixel line is trash (as you know and fixed)





__





Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





Raw HDR frame vs Current Beta





__





Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com


----------



## desray2k

Thanks Jav for those depictions...It didn't occur to me but I saw what you are saying.


----------



## by96

garyolearysteele said:


> Anyone here use an Arcam AVR with the Lumagen? Ive been getting random audio drop outs, naturally the cable was blamed, 4 cable changes later and Lumagen say now I should try it with a “mainstream AVR”. In the UK the Arcam is a high end mainstream AVR
> 
> I don’t even know what to say at this point tbh, wondering if anyone else has been here and found a solution.
> Gary


I know I am quoting an old post, but I was hoping to see whether the poster or anyone else had more information on problems with the AV40.

My original plan with a 4242-18G was to switch the devices with the AV40 before the LRP. But to be safe, I went with a 4244-18G in order to have at least five inputs, and my plan now is to use the LRP for switching and then send audio from the "audio only" output to the AV40.

Here is the question. Did those individuals with audio dropouts with an Arcam use it for device switching or after the LRP in the video chain? Or have people had audio dropouts with an Arcam being fed only audio? (I have 18G certified cables between all devices.)

Also, when I bought my AV40 last year, I knew the model was known for having problems early on, but after several firmware releases, and by the time I bought one, most kinks had been worked out. I have had zero issues with mine but don't want to start now!

Thank you. I am trying to alleviate my fear that I am walking into a problem!


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> *Jim I actually maybe found another bug*, I emailed, you know how you fixed that stray line of pixels down the right hand side? Well it looks like Pat just erased the line and the whole image is now being scaled horizontally by 1-2px now. if you look at the DTM On comparison above, you will see the whole image moving to the right.


Matt:

I checked my Inbox and SPAM folders and do not see the email.

I will have to defer to Patrick as he knows the details of what he did to fix the bad pixel column at the right (and the bad bottom pixel row). I assume you emailed support so he sees the email and can respond, but for some reason I did not receive the email.

What he discussed with me is he made sure that for 1920 by 1080 in, and 3840 by 2160 out, that every pixel is scaled by exactly a factor of two. I think Pat may have placed the input pixel 0 half-way between output pixels 0 and 1 in this release. To me this makes the most sense for center-of-input-pixel placement.

It is possible the right column pixel issue was due to input pixel 0 being previously placed coincident with output pixel 0 and so not quite covering the right-most pixel column. This is just conjecture on my part, but it would show up as a shift to the right by one-half output pixel.

Patrick can let you know how scaling actually changed for this release.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Matt:
> 
> I checked my Inbox and SPAM folders and do not see the email.
> 
> I will have to defer to Patrick as he knows the details of what he did to fix the bad pixel column at the right (and the bad bottom pixel row). I assume you emailed support so he sees the email and can respond, but for some reason I did not receive the email.
> 
> What he discussed with me is he made sure that for 1920 by 1080 in, and 3840 by 2160 out, that every pixel is scaled by exactly a factor of two. I think Pat may have placed the input pixel 0 half-way between output pixels 0 and 1 in this release. To me this makes the most sense for center-of-input-pixel placement.
> 
> It is possible the right column pixel issue was due to input pixel 0 being previously placed coincident with output pixel 0 and so not quite covering the right-most pixel column. This is just conjecture on my part, but it would show up as a shift to the right by one-half output pixel.
> 
> Patrick can let you know how scaling actually changed for this release.


He emailed back already, this is actually just 4k source Jim. The pixel pixel line across the right side was never about upscaling it was all sources, the upscaling thing was the bottom line only when upscaling, two different things. You should be on the email chain, but anyway he has the email and corroborated the issue sounds like he had already found it.

It didn't used to do that so it crept in when he tried to fix the right side line. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Nima

Javs said:


> Literally everywhere particularly red objects is where you will definitely see it though, but you may not even know unless you have a known version which does not shift. It affects the entire image all the time, its subtle on thepixel level yes, but its kinda like having a convergence error inside the lumagen. The Oppo actually has the error too, but Lumagen takes that and also shifts it in a completely different direction, so thats a two pronged issue, ideally Oppo would need to fix this too, Kris emailed a contact he has there to see if they can. He also bought the Pana 820 and that does not have the chroma shift issue.


But the Panasonic players are supposed to have little too sharpened Chroma, I have read?


----------



## Javs

Nima said:


> But the Panasonic players are supposed to have little too sharpened Chroma, I have read?


What is that image you added to your post it's just a bunch of numbers? 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Nima

Deleted that was supposed to land in the Trinnov thread. ;-)


----------



## jont-uk

by96 said:


> I know I am quoting an old post, but I was hoping to see whether the poster or anyone else had more information on problems with the AV40.
> 
> Here is the question. Did those individuals with audio dropouts with an Arcam use it for device switching or after the LRP in the video chain? Or have people had audio dropouts with an Arcam being fed only audio? (I have 18G certified cables between all devices.)


My Arcam (I have the older AVR550) audio problems seem to stem from having two display devices connected (my PJ and my Sony 4K tv) and I will get audio dropouts when watching the PJ if the TV is in standby - for some reason the Sony doesn't properly shut down and tickles the HDMI connection which seems to upset the Arcam. I see you have a PJ and a TV so the same problem may be occurring for you ?

My system is: 4x sources>LRP 4242C>Output 1 (video)>PJ or TV, Output 2 (audio)>Arcam and there's another HDMI from Arcam>TV so I can see onscreen menus, etc when configuring or calibrating audio, etc

The only 'cure' so far is that I physically plug and switch separate HDMI leads for the video output on my 4242C between the TV and the PJ and disconnect the TV HDMI at the other end so there's nothing coming back up the cable to the Arcam.

In theory a HD Fury Vertex box or Dr HDMI box somewhere inline should block the Sony tickling the Arcam and allow me to have all the devices permanently connected as I'd love to just have LRP output 1 for video for PJ and output 2 as video/audio for the Arcam and through to the TV - and stop having to getup and swap/disconnect HDMI cables - but no-one's yet proved it will work.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

jont-uk said:


> My Arcam (I have the older AVR550) audio problems seem to stem from having two display devices connected (my PJ and my Sony 4K tv) and I will get audio dropouts when watching the PJ if the TV is in standby - for some reason the Sony doesn't properly shut down and tickles the HDMI connection which seems to upset the Arcam. I see you have a PJ and a TV so the same problem may be occurring for you ?
> 
> My system is: 4x sources>LRP 4242C>Output 1 (video)>PJ or TV, Output 2 (audio)>Arcam and there's another HDMI from Arcam>TV so I can see onscreen menus, etc when configuring or calibrating audio, etc
> 
> The only 'cure' so far is that I physically plug and switch separate HDMI leads for the video output on my 4242C between the TV and the PJ and disconnect the TV HDMI at the other end so there's nothing coming back up the cable to the Arcam.
> 
> In theory a HD Fury Vertex box or Dr HDMI box somewhere inline should block the Sony tickling the Arcam and allow me to have all the devices permanently connected as I'd love to just have LRP output 1 for video for PJ and output 2 as video/audio for the Arcam and through to the TV - and stop having to getup and swap/disconnect HDMI cables - but no-one's yet proved it will work.


Vertex2 will work. I have deployed that myself with my Sony Oled and PJ.


----------



## docrog

jont-uk said:


> My Arcam (I have the older AVR550) audio problems seem to stem from having two display devices connected (my PJ and my Sony 4K tv) and I will get audio dropouts when watching the PJ if the TV is in standby - for some reason the Sony doesn't properly shut down and tickles the HDMI connection which seems to upset the Arcam. I see you have a PJ and a TV so the same problem may be occurring for you ?
> 
> My system is: 4x sources>LRP 4242C>Output 1 (video)>PJ or TV, Output 2 (audio)>Arcam and there's another HDMI from Arcam>TV so I can see onscreen menus, etc when configuring or calibrating audio, etc
> 
> The only 'cure' so far is that I physically plug and switch separate HDMI leads for the video output on my 4242C between the TV and the PJ and disconnect the TV HDMI at the other end so there's nothing coming back up the cable to the Arcam.
> 
> In theory a HD Fury Vertex box or Dr HDMI box somewhere inline should block the Sony tickling the Arcam and allow me to have all the devices permanently connected as I'd love to just have LRP output 1 for video for PJ and output 2 as video/audio for the Arcam and through to the TV - and stop having to getup and swap/disconnect HDMI cables - but no-one's yet proved it will work.


I'm a bit confused by the video set-up that you're trying to accomplish. Are you using the Sony *solely* for making use of the Arcam GUI (and not for the purpose of LRP processing)? If that's the case, why not initially run your 4 video sources directly to the Arcam (making it the source switcher) and a single HDMI out from the Arcam to the LRP -> display? That configuration would provide you with the Arcam GUI and avoid any (audio) return from the LRP. That video chain works perfectly with my Denon and may work for your Arcam, as well, without any downside as long as you're capable of switching off *ALL* video processing in the Arcam (direct video pass through).


----------



## jont-uk

Gordon Fraser said:


> Vertex2 will work. I have deployed that myself with my Sony Oled and PJ.


Thanks Gordon - when we get around to you getting to me we can discuss - was waiting for Joe to confirm with HDF tech people if you remember ...


----------



## jont-uk

docrog said:


> I'm a bit confused by the video set-up that you're trying to accomplish. Are you using the Sony *solely* for making use of the Arcam GUI (and not for the purpose of LRP processing)? If that's the case, why not initially run your 4 video sources directly to the Arcam (making it the source switcher) and a single HDMI out from the Arcam to the LRP -> display? That configuration would provide you with the Arcam GUI and avoid any (audio) return from the LRP. That video chain works perfectly with my Denon and may work for your Arcam, as well, without any downside as long as you're capable of switching off *ALL* video processing in the Arcam (direct video pass through).


I watch some content on tv (soaps/etc) and films/drama/F1 on the PJ so having the Lumagen doing the source switching I felt was easier and purer in signal terms and I could have custom calibration per input instead of a virtual MEM one for the particular device coming through the Arcam ...


----------



## docrog

jont-uk said:


> I watch some content on tv (soaps/etc) and films/drama/F1 on the PJ so having the Lumagen doing the source switching I felt was easier and purer in signal terms and I could have custom calibration per input instead of a virtual MEM one for the particular device coming through the Arcam ...


Thanks for that clarification. I'm not sure why the video signal would be "less pure" when coming to the LRP via direct pass through from the Arcam if no processing occurred in the AVR. Question: has your calibrator found that *each* of your video sources required tweaking in order to produce expected outcomes as opposed to 1 universal calibration of all video sources? In any case, is there some functional/operational downside in selecting your source (input) at the LRP using a MEM slot versus selecting the specific source input on the LRP remote (or unified remote) if the video chain permitted uncomplicated use of the Arcam GUI and direct audio management rather than an audio loop back from the LRP?


----------



## by96

Gordon Fraser said:


> Vertex2 will work. I have deployed that myself with my Sony Oled and PJ.


My plan is to have a VRRoom split the video signal from the LRP to a PJ and TV, so maybe it will help prevent any audio problems? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## edthomp

Javs said:


> The thing is its about 1px, so you are simply not going to know, but as I have been doing a bit of an in depth shootout for a while now, I can easily see it in my comparison images, but here is one, Alien Covenant.
> 
> Just rollover the mouse and look at the red lights on his suit. Also, the Lumagen is shifting the actual image here about 1px too, even though they fixed something, I will need to dig deeper into that, but something else is also happening with the latest betas.
> 
> Here, DTM on. Once it all loads, move your mouse on and off the screen really fast, you will see the red lights dancing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alien : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here DTM off from beta 062222, now you will see the red light barely moving. So, right now there is a bit of a dance you need to do to make it shift, certain scenarios and such as its not the same shift with certain conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alien : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Jim I actually maybe found another bug*, I emailed, you know how you fixed that stray line of pixels down the right hand side? Well it looks like Pat just erased the line and the whole image is now being scaled horizontally by 1-2px now. if you look at the DTM On comparison above, you will see the whole image moving to the right.
> 
> 0602222 beta DTM Off vs Current beta DTM on. Image shifting right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alien : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More importantly, Raw HDR Frame vs 062222 - Here the overall image position is perfect vs the reference raw frame, but the right pixel line is trash (as you know and fixed)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alien : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw HDR frame vs Current Beta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alien : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com


Thank you for your efforts here. A little bit of friction is helping to drive innovation and quality. The Lumagen team and their product is already amazing. So the thought of having it be even better is a wonderful thing. Exciting really. While they are working through solidifying a beta which is obviously 'very' technically complex and intricate, having a second set of independent eyes is super helpful and productive to that process. I really appreciate your keen interest, pursuit, and quest to strive for video perfection. And the Lumagen team's openness, expertise, and willingness to embrace expert feedback and opinion, and actually do something constructive with it, is beyond impressive. Lumagen is hands-down the best electronic device (the performance, engagement, attitude, and support) I've ever owned. Loved this purchase.

So looking forward to enjoying the improvements in the theater.


----------



## Wayne Z

Dolby Vision

Most of my streaming is on an Apple TV 4K and most Apple TV + shows and many movies rented or purchased from iTunes are in Dollby Vision. Since the Radiance Pro doesn't support Dolby Vision, what does either the Apple TV or the Radiance do with the Dolby Vision forma to convert it to HDR 10 or whatever?


----------



## Peule_P

Wayne Z said:


> Dolby Vision
> 
> Most of my streaming is on an Apple TV 4K and most Apple TV + shows and many movies rented or purchased from iTunes are in Dollby Vision. Since the Radiance Pro doesn't support Dolby Vision, what does either the Apple TV or the Radiance do with the Dolby Vision forma to convert it to HDR 10 or whatever?


the Apple will output HDR10


----------



## dlinsley

by96 said:


> I know I am quoting an old post, but I was hoping to see whether the poster or anyone else had more information on problems with the AV40.
> 
> My original plan with a 4242-18G was to switch the devices with the AV40 before the LRP. But to be safe, I went with a 4244-18G in order to have at least five inputs, and my plan now is to use the LRP for switching and then send audio from the "audio only" output to the AV40.
> 
> Here is the question. Did those individuals with audio dropouts with an Arcam use it for device switching or after the LRP in the video chain? Or have people had audio dropouts with an Arcam being fed only audio? (I have 18G certified cables between all devices.)
> 
> Also, when I bought my AV40 last year, I knew the model was known for having problems early on, but after several firmware releases, and by the time I bought one, most kinks had been worked out. I have had zero issues with mine but don't want to start now!
> 
> Thank you. I am trying to alleviate my fear that I am walking into a problem!


When I was using my AV40 in my theater system, I originally had inputs to the LRP with video/audio feeding the AV40 and the AV40 then driving the projector via a 40' RuiPro cable. I'd get video/audio dropouts regularly but a 5V HDMI injector (I used the official RuiPro one) plugged into the AV40 video out cured that. Moving the RuiPro to be driven by the LRP (without the injector), so the AV40 received audio "only" also had no dropouts.


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> He emailed back already, this is actually just 4k source Jim. The pixel pixel line across the right side was never about upscaling it was all sources, the upscaling thing was the bottom line only when upscaling, two different things. You should be on the email chain, but anyway he has the email and corroborated the issue sounds like he had already found it.
> 
> It didn't used to do that so it crept in when he tried to fix the right side line.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


I talked with Patrick and as you know he confirmed the one pixel shift for 4k in and out. He had seen this in simulation and already has it corrected for the next release.

I was not on the email chain. If you include lumagen support I do get those.

As always, we appreciate the feedback.


----------



## Naiera

Is there a "stable" or non-beta release on the horizon?


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> Is there a "stable" or non-beta release on the horizon?


Yes. I believe once we have the couple reported bugs fixed, and a FPGA load that is working well for everyone, we will put the "production release" stamp of approval on a release. I am hoping this is in the next few weeks, but we cannot commit to a timeframe.

After the pipeline enhancement production release we will get going on the DTM enhancements.


----------



## MOberhardt

Great news. To be honest, I'm cautious and am still on the old prod release.


----------



## Naiera

Excellent. I'm weary of being a beta tester on such a complicated product


----------



## Craig Peer

Naiera said:


> Excellent. I'm weary of being a beta tester on such a complicated product


I have had zero issues with the Beta 073122 firmware ( haven't gotten around to the latest firmware yet ).


----------



## Javs

Craig Peer said:


> I have had zero issues with the Beta 073122 firmware ( haven't gotten around to the latest firmware yet ).


Yeah the stuff I am finding is minimal and most would not notice. But it's enough to marginally degrade the image technically. But I wouldn't be scared of the betas, the older stable also had similar stuff going on, it still has the chroma shift and upscaling bug.

Dtm is the stuff you see from any distance which they are not yet working on.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Naiera

Given that my new (to me) 4242 was delayed until Monday for customs clearance and that my calibration buddy might not even be available next week, now seems like a fine time to wait for a production release. If future DTM improvements seem important, I'll definitely consider beta firmware.


----------



## desray2k

Javs said:


> Dtm is the stuff you see from any distance which they are not yet working on.


Agreed. Hope it’s gonna be a game changer for Lumagen. Closing the gap, if any with MadVR in the DTM. Waiting with abated breath for the improvement to land. Jim and team should be thanking you for making their products even better than it already has. It keeps Lumagen relevant. And for us, as users, we thanked you for the effort you’ve put in and make us look forward to something on the horizon with Lumagen. Both sides (Lumagen & users) stand to benefit from this mutual arrangement of bug reporting and fixing.


----------



## DigitalAV

The prices we pay, I applaud both Jim (& Patrick) and madshi keeping current and aware and competitive (and of course thanks to Javs, both your LRP and Envy should be on the house)


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Anyone have experience using the Control4 drivers provided by Lumagen on the 5xxx series? Specifically the RS232 codes. Any issues or limitations encountered? Not sure I want (or need) to drop $300 on the only other available C4 driver on the market.


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> Yes. I believe once we have the couple reported bugs fixed,
> and a FPGA load that is working well for everyone,
> *we will put the "production release" stamp of approval on a release.*
> I am hoping this is in the next few weeks, but we cannot commit to a timeframe.
> 
> After the pipeline enhancement production release we will get going on the DTM enhancements.





Craig Peer said:


> I have had zero issues with the Beta 073122 firmware ( haven't gotten around to the latest firmware yet ).


Hey Craig,

Personally the Lumagen product is Way-way over this old guy's abilities so I'm waiting until I see (Multiple) AVS members posting that once it receives
*



the "production release" stamp.
Per JIm .........

Click to expand...

*And lots and lots of members post they have Zero-Issues and Love the changes then I'll see about loading it.

Caution is my Friend on this,
Terry


----------



## audioguy

xPLAYRZx said:


> Anyone have experience using the Control4 drivers provided by Lumagen on the 5xxx series? Specifically the RS232 codes. Any issues or limitations encountered? Not sure I want (or need) to drop $300 on the only other available C4 driver on the market.


I'm using the basic driver to switch inputs as necessary. BUT, I put an IR Receiver in the theater so that if I need to do more that just switch inputs, I use the Lumagen Remote. About the ONLY thing I do with that remote is adjust/change aspect ratios.


----------



## desray2k

tigerhonaker said:


> Hey Craig,
> 
> Personally the Lumagen product is Way-way over this old guy's abilities so I'm waiting until I see (Multiple) AVS members posting that once it receives
> 
> And lots and lots of members post they have Zero-Issues and Love the changes then I'll see about loading it.
> 
> Caution is my Friend on this,
> Terry


Did I miss something here?


----------



## tigerhonaker

> tigerhonaker said:
> 
> Hey Craig,
> 
> Personally the Lumagen product is Way-way over this old guy's abilities so I'm waiting until I see (Multiple) AVS members posting that once it receives
> 
> And lots and lots of members post they have Zero-Issues and Love the changes then I'll see about loading it.
> 
> Caution is my Friend on this,
> Terry





desray2k said:


> Did I miss something here?


I don't think you missed anything ..........
I'm simply saying to Craig Peer I'm going to wait until after I see on this Lumagen Thread where multiple AVS members post they have loaded the Newest Lumagen Up-Dates and have No-Issues.
Unfortunately for me I'm not wise enough to be able to trouble-shoot my Lumagen if anything strange were to take place from a New Up-Date.
I would have no choice but to have to get a Custom Calibrator to come straighten it out.

I'm going to wait and hopefully make sure the Newest Software Up-Dates once Jim (Officially Releases Them) that members say all is A-OK.

Terry


----------



## netroamer

xPLAYRZx said:


> Anyone have experience using the Control4 drivers provided by Lumagen on the 5xxx series? Specifically the RS232 codes. Any issues or limitations encountered? Not sure I want (or need) to drop $300 on the only other available C4 driver on the market.


I have used the serial driver that was published years ago and it functions fine. I am not sure if it is up to date with all of the new features on the remote. but for basic control it works. I agree the new C4 driver seems overpriced, but the market is so small, the creator needs to recoup his development cost. I do not know if it did/did not happened but Lumagen, like other small manufacturers should have contributed to the development cost to reduce the end user cost and add to the enjoyment of their product. Lyngdorf, for example, paid Chowmain an hourly rate to create the C4 MP-60 driver and released it for free.


----------



## by96

audioguy said:


> I'm using the basic driver to switch inputs as necessary. BUT, I put an IR Receiver in the theater so that if I need to do more that just switch inputs, I use the Lumagen Remote. About the ONLY thing I do with that remote is adjust/change aspect ratios.


What is the "basic" driver? I only see one for the Pro on LRP's website, and that is the link to the $300 (which I am planning on buying).


----------



## netroamer

by96 said:


> What is the "basic" driver? I only see one for the Pro on LRP's website, and that is the link to the $300 (which I am planning on buying).


The "basic driver, is one that was developed by a, if a recall correctly, Lumagen user and was on their website for a long time. It appears that this driver no longer is featured and only the paid driver.


----------



## by96

netroamer said:


> The "basic driver, is one that was developed by a, if a recall correctly, Lumagen user and was on their website for a long time. It appears that this driver no longer is featured and only the paid driver.


Thanks. Thought I was missing something.


----------



## netroamer

by96 said:


> Thanks. Thought I was missing something.


If you want a copy of that driver PM me.


----------



## by96

netroamer said:


> If you want a copy of that driver PM me.


Have you ever tried the paid one?


----------



## netroamer

Have not had time. I am sure others have. Any comments?


----------



## OzHDHT

tigerhonaker said:


> Hey Craig,
> 
> Personally the Lumagen product is Way-way over this old guy's abilities so I'm waiting until I see (Multiple) AVS members posting that once it receives
> 
> And lots and lots of members post they have Zero-Issues and Love the changes then I'll see about loading it.
> 
> Caution is my Friend on this,
> Terry


As you say Terry, you're not one to go into the deeper levels of the Lumagen yourself. So you weren't going to sign up to test the Alpha's nor go intro the Betas. On the other hand some of us are extremely keen DIY home theater guys who like to explore nearly every aspect of our equipment ourselves. I have really enjoyed the journey from first release Alpha to the current Beta and it's been great being part of testing. Some of us of course have to put our hands up here (to be testers) or it would take a lot longer to get to final release, and longer for guys like your good self to get to see.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

by96 said:


> What is the "basic" driver? I only see one for the Pro on LRP's website, and that is the link to the $300 (which I am planning on buying).


These are the basic C4 drivers available directly from Lumagen. I missed these first time around too.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Users with low nits on screen may want to read this.

I am currently getting between 40 and 60nits on my screen dependent on whether I’m in scope or 16:9. I’ll look to fix / increase that but i wanted to get the Lumagen working for now.

In any case, the Lumagen defaults didn’t work for me. If I decreased max light / scaled low ratio, it still didn’t look right. I am incredibly sensitive to contrast in the mid-tones - likely more than the average user - and no matter what I tried, it didn’t look right.

Anyway, after a lot of testing - and annoying Jim, poor guy - I found that I needed to change the curve shapes and transitions to prioritise mid-tones more while compressing highlights some. I found this a good trade-off.

Anyway, here are my settings if anyone wants to try them:
Low Ratio: 35
Max Light: 500
DPAD: 1 (but you can increase this to 2 or 3 if ok with a less bright image)

The other settings are configured in service mode. Attaching the pictures for those.

The above might help someone with the same challenges. In any case, it works quite well now and running HDR at 40nits and still looking great is a small miracle really.

I might keep tweaking as I watch more content but pretty happy with these now.


----------



## desray2k

NinjaTypeR said:


> I am currently getting between 40 and 60nits on my screen dependent on whether I’m in scope or 16:9. I’ll look to fix / increase that but i wanted to get the Lumagen working for now.
> 
> In any case, the Lumagen defaults didn’t work for me. If I decreased max light / scaled low ratio, it still didn’t look right.


What projector are you using? Laser source? or Lamp source?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

desray2k said:


> What projector are you using? Laser source? or Lamp source?


JVC X7000. Set up to 2.4 gamma and BT2020 to an inch of its life so I know it’s not a setup problem.

I actually think the main culprit is the curve transitions more than the curve shapes. But needs more testing. Definitely looking much better than OOB though so getting there.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Ok, so I think … hazarding a guess here after 4 days of testing now… the curve transition default for Low ScrMax is too low. If you stop PQ tracking too low, you risk crushing mid-tones and their relationship to higher output which some users will be very sensitive to. I perceive it as low contrast and even desaturated mid-tones. Even at 60nits I need the transition to be around 10-12 at the minimum or something looks off to me. 

It may look ok at 100nits where the defaults were mainly tested for, so this isn’t gospel.

Anyway, I think I found the culprit. The rest of the setting changes - such as changing curve shape may hurt content higher up the range and isn’t actually necessary if transition is high enough. Anyway, will keep testing…


----------



## alv

NinjaTypeR said:


> Users with low nits on screen may want to read this.
> 
> I am currently getting between 40 and 60nits on my screen dependent on whether I’m in scope or 16:9. I’ll look to fix / increase that but i wanted to get the Lumagen working for now.
> 
> In any case, the Lumagen defaults didn’t work for me. If I decreased max light / scaled low ratio, it still didn’t look right. I am incredibly sensitive to contrast in the mid-tones - likely more than the average user - and no matter what I tried, it didn’t look right.
> 
> Anyway, after a lot of testing - and annoying Jim, poor guy - I found that I needed to change the curve shapes and transitions to prioritise mid-tones more while compressing highlights some. I found this a good trade-off.
> 
> Anyway, here are my settings if anyone wants to try them:
> Low Ratio: 35
> Max Light: 500
> DPAD: 1 (but you can increase this to 2 or 3 if ok with a less bright image)
> 
> The other settings are configured in service mode. Attaching the pictures for those.
> 
> The above might help someone with the same challenges. In any case, it works quite well now and running HDR at 40nits and still looking great is a small miracle really.
> 
> I might keep tweaking as I watch more content but pretty happy with these now.


What do the two sets of settings refer to?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

alv said:


> What do the two sets of settings refer to?


They are only available in service mode and it’s probably best you don’t change stuff there unless you know what you are doing.

When in service mode, the left arrow DTM menu changes to reveal the in-depth settings (and Alt key changes between high and low setting sets). If you end up doing anything, either take a pic or write down the settings otherwise you could mess things up badly!

In any case, I would probably only change the transition values, not the curve shapes.


----------



## tigerhonaker

tigerhonaker said:


> Hey Craig,
> 
> Personally the Lumagen product is Way-way over this old guy's abilities so I'm waiting until I see (Multiple) AVS members posting that once it receives
> 
> And lots and lots of members post they have Zero-Issues and Love the changes then I'll see about loading it.
> 
> Caution is my Friend on this,
> Terry





tigerhonaker said:


> I don't think you missed anything ..........
> I'm simply saying to Craig Peer I'm going to wait until after I see on this Lumagen Thread where multiple AVS members post they have loaded the Newest Lumagen Up-Dates and have No-Issues.
> Unfortunately for me I'm not wise enough to be able to trouble-shoot my Lumagen if anything strange were to take place from a New Up-Date.
> I would have no choice but to have to get a Custom Calibrator to come straighten it out.
> 
> I'm going to wait and hopefully make sure the Newest Software Up-Dates once Jim (Officially Releases Them) that members say all is A-OK.
> 
> Terry





OzHDHT said:


> As you say Terry, you're not one to go into the deeper levels of the Lumagen yourself. So you weren't going to sign up to test the Alpha's nor go intro the Betas. On the other hand some of us are extremely keen DIY home theater guys who like to explore nearly every aspect of our equipment ourselves. I have really enjoyed the journey from first release Alpha to the current Beta and it's been great being part of testing.
> 
> Some of us of course have to put our hands up here (to be testers) or it would take a lot longer to get to final release,
> and longer for guys like your good self to get to see.


OzHDHT,



> *Some of us of course have to put our hands up here (to be testers) or it would take a lot longer to get to final release,
> and longer for guys like your good self to get to see.*


Couldn't have said it better ^^^
I'm glad there are AVS members like yourself that have the needed talent to be testers.
When I was a younger guy I was Much-much sharper on electronics than I am at now 77-years old.
In-fact when I was in my early 20's I was employed at IBM (International Business Machines Corporation).
You might have heard of that company ???
I was what they referred to as a ACSR (Advanced Customer Senior Representative).
I serviced IBM office equipment in customer offices with the accepted IBM 3-piece-blue-suit, white long-sleeve-shirt, tie and a SMILE !!!
Back in those days I actually installed simple audio in some of my vehicles by today's standards.
As time passed as in a lot of years I got into the Home Theater thing.
And back in those years I totally understood what I was purchasing and how to easily operate those components.
More years went by and of course I got older, in-fact a lot older and my electronic expertise SUCKS as in today's to me the Super-Sophisticated Electronics.
I now and have for a number of years depend on (Wolf Hill-Technologies) and that companies Senior Technician.
Thankfully I still know and understand the general idea of what I have in my dedicated HT and how to generally operate each component.

You ......... *Sir* and the other AVS members that are the Beta Testers for the Lumagen products I *APPLAUD *each and everyone of you. 

Terry


----------



## arsenalfc89

NinjaTypeR said:


> They are only available in service mode and it’s probably best you don’t change stuff there unless you know what you are doing.
> 
> When in service mode, the left arrow DTM menu changes to reveal the in-depth settings (and Alt key changes between high and low setting sets). If you end up doing anything, either take a pic or write down the settings otherwise you could mess things up badly!
> 
> In any case, I would probably only change the transition values, not the curve shapes.


Increaing the transition slightly help and leaving shape the same. Changing these settings affects HDR quite a bit.


----------



## fransfar_5430

arsenalfc89 said:


> Increaing the transition slightly help and leaving shape the same. Changing these settings affects HDR quite a bit.


 I am currently getting around 57nits and re-tried The Batman using these settings. The difference from the default values is astonishing! Picture is far more dynamic and retains the intended contrast.


----------



## Clark Burk

NinjaTypeR said:


> They are only available in service mode and it’s probably best you don’t change stuff there unless you know what you are doing.
> 
> When in service mode, the left arrow DTM menu changes to reveal the in-depth settings (and Alt key changes between high and low setting sets). If you end up doing anything, either take a pic or write down the settings otherwise you could mess things up badly!
> 
> In any case, I would probably only change the transition values, not the curve shapes.


You've kind of let the cat out of the bag I think. I'm guessing not many owners even knew there was a service mode. I think Jim may get a lot of questions Monday...


----------



## arsenalfc89

fransfar_5430 said:


> I am currently getting around 57nits and re-tried The Batman using these settings. The difference from the default values is astonishing! Picture is far more dynamic and retains the intended contrast.


What setting did you end up with?


----------



## Naiera

NinjaTypeR said:


> Ok, so I think … hazarding a guess here after 4 days of testing now… the curve transition default for Low ScrMax is too low. If you stop PQ tracking too low, you risk crushing mid-tones and their relationship to higher output which some users will be very sensitive to. I perceive it as low contrast and even desaturated mid-tones. Even at 60nits I need the transition to be around 10-12 at the minimum or something looks off to me.
> 
> It may look ok at 100nits where the defaults were mainly tested for, so this isn’t gospel.
> 
> Anyway, I think I found the culprit. The rest of the setting changes - such as changing curve shape may hurt content higher up the range and isn’t actually necessary if transition is high enough. Anyway, will keep testing…


I get about 33 nits; what kinda settings would you recommend for me?

I believe I used 33/1/Medium/180 before going back to the 2123 while waiting for the 4242.


----------



## Clark Burk

Brighter projector, new bulb or smaller screen??  Just kidding....


----------



## FenceMan

Naiera said:


> I get about 33 nits; what kinda settings would you recommend for me?
> 
> I believe I used 33/1/Medium/180 before going back to the 2123 while waiting for the 4242.


That isn't even enough for SDR is it?


----------



## fransfar_5430

arsenalfc89 said:


> What setting did you end up with?


Basically I replicated your settings but changed onlu Dpad to 2.


----------



## Naiera

FenceMan said:


> That isn't even enough for SDR is it?


Of course it is.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Clark Burk said:


> You've kind of let the cat out of the bag I think. I'm guessing not many owners even knew there was a service mode. I think Jim may get a lot of questions Monday...


Yes, I think he is preparing my funeral already…  
****!
NO GIVING JIM CALLS ABOUT THIS GUYS. Now I’m part of his support team doing free support. ****!


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Naiera said:


> I get about 33 nits; what kinda settings would you recommend for me?
> 
> I believe I used 33/1/Medium/180 before going back to the 2123 while waiting for the 4242.


If you used 33/1/180 then maybe it was already bright enough? if you were happy with those, don’t change them… those settings don’t work for me very well so had to use 500 as a base which isn’t bright enough…


----------



## FenceMan

Naiera said:


> Of course it is.


SDR should be around 16fL you're not getting 10? Just saying that is asking an awful lot of any tone mapping solution. Lumagen does a great job, it can't create brightness though.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Ultimately, my conclusion is that under 60nits, you need a bit higher transition value especially if you are using 31/500 for low /high.

warning: putting the value above 10 will compromise brighter content. There is always a trade-off.

Now we confirmed this helps people with brightness compromised screens, maybe let Jim improve on the firmware instead of messing around in the service menu… and contributing to me getting beated up. 

Edit: I meant to say I am afraid of getting beaten up for being silly but Jim would never do that. He has been nothing but helpful and awesome! Lost in translation.


----------



## jrp

NinjaTypeR said:


> Users with low nits on screen may want to read this.
> 
> I am currently getting between 40 and 60nits on my screen dependent on whether I’m in scope or 16:9. I’ll look to fix / increase that but i wanted to get the Lumagen working for now.
> 
> In any case, the Lumagen defaults didn’t work for me. If I decreased max light / scaled low ratio, it still didn’t look right. I am incredibly sensitive to contrast in the mid-tones - likely more than the average user - and no matter what I tried, it didn’t look right.
> 
> Anyway, after a lot of testing - and annoying Jim, poor guy - I found that I needed to change the curve shapes and transitions to prioritise mid-tones more while compressing highlights some. I found this a good trade-off.
> 
> Anyway, here are my settings if anyone wants to try them:
> Low Ratio: 35
> Max Light: 500
> DPAD: 1 (but you can increase this to 2 or 3 if ok with a less bright image)
> 
> The other settings are configured in service mode. Attaching the pictures for those.
> 
> The above might help someone with the same challenges. In any case, it works quite well now and running HDR at 40nits and still looking great is a small miracle really.
> 
> I might keep tweaking as I watch more content but pretty happy with these now.


While I caution people about messing with the extra DTM controls available in Service Mode, I was happy to help NinjaTypeR improve his settings for his low light output theater.

I think it is interesting to point out that a week ago when I was looking at the Mysterio bar scene in Spiderman, I was testing changes similar to what I recommended he try, and ended up selecting, with his 40 nits for scope content. There are significant trade-offs with his selected settings, but for him I think they make sense.

Given NinjaTypeR has brought up the topic, I wanted to again discuss the DTM settings and touch on the additional Service Mode settings:

My first point is "tweaker beware." We had a well know client really mess up his picture using the settings available in service mode. Extra control and plenty of rope to hang yourself, so to speak. However, given the topic came up I can only imagine some customers will want to become tweakers in Service Mode.

When we were optimizing the default settings we were mostly looking at theaters in the range of 80 to 150 nits. If you only have 40 nits, that is very limiting for DTM, since even an SDR commercial theater will have about 54 nits for SDR content. Having only 40 nits means essentially no room for highlights. NinjaTypeR's settings show this.

If you have only 40 to 50 nits, I recommend you consider a brighter projector or what I tell people all the time, a smaller screen. Having a bigger screen is impressive but having more light makes for better viewing. We currently have about 62 nits for the RS4500 in mid-laser on our 14 foot diagonal StudioTek 130, and 100 nits in high laser. IMO 60 nits is really about as low a brightness as I would consider for HDR content, and 100 nits is IMO a reasonable target brightness.

The Radiance Pro DTM is an evolution of Static Tone Mapping. This is why we have the controls the way we do. As we work more on DTM Dyn Pad, and desaturation, we are going to reevaluate the controls since at his point the "Dark Scene Max Light" is intended to match the maximum brightness, and "Max Light" is a trade-off for brightness versus saturation for very bright scenes. We are considering changing the control so you would set the "dark scene Max Light" at the 1X screen maximum brightness first and then adjust Max Light instead of the current "set Max Light and then Low Ratio." Not sure if we will. I mention this to make people aware of the _possible_ change.

DTM User Mode controls:

_Max Light:_ For a projector in the range of 80 to 150 nits, we are recommending 5x to 6x the measured maximum light output. If you set it to this the default Low Ratio of 31 is a good number to use. While some want to just enter the maximum measured brightness as the user interface, a lot of people do not have a colorimeter to measure this. For these people I have been recommending _The Meg_ at 1:08:00 with people on and near an overturned boat as a good scene to set Max Light. The trade-off is between maximizing light in the scene versus best color saturation for flesh tones.

_Low Ratio:_ This sets the "Dark Scene Max Light" which should be 1X measured max light, to maybe 1.5X. Yes, I agree, "Low Ratio" does not sound like the control to set maximum measured light. It is a historical artifact of static tone mapping, but it does what is needed. As mentioned we are considering changing how this control interacts in the menu. I believe we currently allow "Dark Scene Max Light" down to about 75 nits. Based on recent discussions, I am considering allowing this to go down to about 50 nits.

_Dyn Pad:_ Since DTM sets the transfer function for each scene on the first frame of the scene, Dyn Pad says how much head room to allow in case the scene gets a lot brighter later in the scene. With adaptation Dyn Pad can reduce the amount of pad and we are going to look into this, and in conjunction look into allowing faster adaptation within a scene. While some Pad is important to have, we have known for a long time we can optimize this further.

_DeSat:_ We took a light handed approach to desaturation and in our approach allowed some clipping. We are hearing people want less clipping and we are going to be working on this soon.

Service Mode control additions (use with caution):

_Low Shape_ and _High Shape:_ These define the shape of the curve that transitions from the (roughly) nit-for-nit lower range to the high nit roll-off range. A smaller number makes for a tighter curve, and a larger number makes for a more gentle curve. The Low Shape controls scenes in the range from the "Dark Scene Max Light" to about 1000 nits. The High Shape controls the shape of the curve for scenes above 1000 nits. _However_ this is not a hard switch over and these two controls are highly interactive. For example changing the High Shape _will_ affect scenes below 1000 nits. Note that below the "Dark Scene Max Light" the transfer function is linear and if the Dyn Pad for the scene is at or below the "Dark Scene Max Light" the response is approximately nit-for-nit.

_Low Tran_ and _High Tran:_ These controls move the Shape curve higher or lower. The Low Tran is roughly for the "Dark Scene Max Light" point up to about 1000 nits and the High Tran is for above 1000 nits. _However_ the High Tran _will_ affect scene below 1000nits. In addition the Shape and Tran parameters are _highly interactive.

Gamma:_ This allow you to change the gamma. If you want scene to come out of black faster for a little more pop, you can adjust this control.

_Black:_ If you have content that does not correctly get down to 10-bit code value 64 for black, you can adjust this Black Level to darken the black floor.

====

Please use caution when using the additional controls available in service mode. If you make a change to these I strongly recommend you view a lot of different types of content to see how the changes affects various content. What looks good for one scene may not be optimal for another.

I have already discussed with NinjaTypeR the possibility to use his settings for 40 nit anamorphic viewing in some way to adjust defaults for this very dark case since we did not consider such a dark maximum brightness previously. Not sure we will or won't, but I plan to consider this as part of the changes we are planning to DTM. I am still of the opinion that if you have less than roughly 60 nits, you have a screen that is too big for your projector/screen combination. Still, this is obviously a limitation in some systems and we will consider if we should try to handle it with the defaults so people do not need to use Service Mode controls.


----------



## Naiera

FenceMan said:


> SDR should be around 16fL you're not getting 10? Just saying that is asking an awful lot of any tone mapping solution.


🤷‍♂️


----------



## jrp

NinjaTypeR said:


> Ultimately, my conclusion is that under 60nits, you need a bit higher transition value especially if you are using 31/500 for low /high.
> 
> warning: putting the value above 10 will compromise brighter content. There is always a trade-off.
> 
> Now we confirmed this helps people with brightness compromised screens, maybe let Jim improve on the firmware instead of messing around in the service menu… and contributing to me getting beated up.


I don't think you really intended to say I beat you up about understanding these changes. I think this was more you feeling uncomfortable with all the emails you were sending to me. You will remember I always said I was happy to help you with your settings.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

jrp said:


> While I caution people about messing with the extra DTM controls available in Service Mode, I was happy to help NinjaTypeR improve his settings for his low light output theater.
> 
> I think it is interesting to point out that a week ago when I was looking at the Mysterio bar scene in Spiderman, I was testing changes similar to what I recommended he try, and ended up selecting, with his 40 nits for scope content. There are significant trade-offs with his selected settings, but for him I think they make sense.
> 
> Given NinjaTypeR has brought up the topic, I wanted to again discuss the DTM settings and touch on the additional Service Mode settings:
> 
> My first point is "tweaker beware." We had a well know client really mess up his picture using the settings available in service mode. Extra control and plenty of rope to hang yourself, so to speak. However, given the topic came up I can only imagine some customers will want to become tweakers in Service Mode.
> 
> When we were optimizing the default settings we were mostly looking at theaters in the range of 80 to 150 nits. If you only have 40 nits, that is very limiting for DTM, since even an SDR commercial theater will have about 54 nits for SDR content. Having only 40 nits means essentially no room for highlights. NinjaTypeR's settings show this.
> 
> If you have only 40 to 50 nits, I recommend you consider a brighter projector or what I tell people all the time, a smaller screen. Having a bigger screen is impressive but having more light makes for better viewing. We currently have about 62 nits for the RS4500 in mid-laser on our 14 foot diagonal StudioTek 130, and 100 nits in high laser. IMO 60 nits is really about as low a brightness as I would consider for HDR content, and 100 nits is IMO a reasonable target brightness.
> 
> The Radiance Pro DTM is an evolution of Static Tone Mapping. This is why we have the controls the way we do. As we work more on DTM Dyn Pad, and desaturation, we are going to reevaluate the controls since at his point the "Dark Scene Max Light" is intended to match the maximum brightness, and "Max Light" is a trade-off for brightness versus saturation for very bright scenes. We are considering changing the control so you would set the "dark scene Max Light" at the 1X screen maximum brightness first and then adjust Max Light instead of the current "set Max Light and then Low Ratio." Not sure if we will. I mention this to make people aware of the _possible_ change.
> 
> DTM User Mode controls:
> 
> _Max Light:_ For a projector in the range of 80 to 150 nits, we are recommending 5x to 6x the measured maximum light output. If you set it to this the default Low Ratio of 31 is a good number to use. While some want to just enter the maximum measured brightness as the user interface, a lot of people do not have a colorimeter to measure this. For these people I have been recommending _The Meg_ at 1:08:00 with people on and near an overturned boat as a good scene to set Max Light. The trade-off is between maximizing light in the scene versus best color saturation for flesh tones.
> 
> _Low Ratio:_ This sets the "Dark Scene Max Light" which should be 1X measured max light, to maybe 1.5X. Yes, I agree, "Low Ratio" does not sound like the control to set maximum measured light. It is a historical artifact of static tone mapping, but it does what is needed. As mentioned we are considering changing how this control interacts in the menu. I believe we currently allow "Dark Scene Max Light" down to about 75 nits. Based on recent discussions, I am considering allowing this to go down to about 50 nits.
> 
> _Dyn Pad:_ Since DTM sets the transfer function for each scene on the first frame of the scene, Dyn Pad says how much head room to allow in case the scene gets a lot brighter later in the scene. With adaptation Dyn Pad can reduce the amount of pad and we are going to look into this, and in conjunction look into allowing faster adaptation within a scene. While some Pad is important to have, we have known for a long time we can optimize this further.
> 
> _DeSat:_ We took a light handed approach to desaturation and in our approach allowed some clipping. We are hearing people want less clipping and we are going to be working on this soon.
> 
> Service Mode control additions (use with caution):
> 
> _Low Shape_ and _High Shape:_ These define the shape of the curve that transitions from the (roughly) nit-for-nit lower range to the high nit roll-off range. A smaller number makes for a tighter curve, and a larger number makes for a more gentle curve. The Low Shape controls scenes in the range from the "Dark Scene Max Light" to about 1000 nits. The High Shape controls the shape of the curve for scenes above 1000 nits. _However_ this is not a hard switch over and these two controls are highly interactive. For example changing the High Shape _will_ affect scenes below 1000 nits. Note that below the "Dark Scene Max Light" the transfer function is linear and if the Dyn Pad for the scene is at or below the "Dark Scene Max Light" the response is approximately to nit-for-nit.
> 
> _Low Tran_ and _High Tran:_ These controls move the Shape curve higher or lower. The Low Tran is roughly for the "Dark Scene Max Light" point up to about 1000 nits and the High Tran is for above 1000 nits. _However_ the High Tran _will_ affect scene below 1000nits. In addition the Shape and Tran parameters are _highly interactive.
> 
> Gamma:_ This allow you to change the gamma. If you want scene to come out of black faster for a little more pop, you can adjust this control.
> 
> _Black:_ If you have content that does not correctly get down to 10-bit code value 64 for black, you can adjust this Black Level to darken the black floor.
> 
> ====
> 
> Please use caution when using the additional controls available in service mode. If you make a change to these I strongly recommend you view a lot of different types of content to see how the changes affects various content. What looks good for one scene may not be optimal for another.
> 
> I have already discussed with NinjaTypeR the possibility to use his settings for 40 nit anamorphic viewing in some way to adjust defaults for this very dark case since we did not consider such a dark maximum brightness previously. Not sure we will or won't, but I plan to consider this as part of the changes we are planning to DTM. I am still of the opinion that if you have less than roughly 60 nits, you have a screen that is too big for your projector/screen combination. Still, this is obviously a limitation in some systems and we will consider if we should try to handle it with the defaults so people do not need to use Service Mode controls.


Thank you, Jim and apologies for letting the cat out of the bag. I just wanted to know if other people had the same issue.

Anyway, allowing down to 50nits for Dark Scene Max Light would be great. I love it!

Jim, you have been nothing but helpful and patient all the way so a big thanks! It’s now working to a point I’m very happy with. I’m sure it will get even better! Thx again.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

jrp said:


> I don't think you really intended to say I beat you up about understanding these changes. I think this was more you feeling uncomfortable with all the emails you were sending to me. You will remember I always said I was happy to help you with your settings.


Yes. Absolutely! Totally lost in translation.  You were nothing but awesome. I just feel guilty to bother you with all this.
Super appreciated your time.


----------



## woofer

jrp said:


> While I caution people about messing with the extra DTM controls available in Service Mode, I was happy to help NinjaTypeR improve his settings for his low light output theater.
> 
> I think it is interesting to point out that a week ago when I was looking at the Mysterio bar scene in Spiderman, I was testing changes similar to what I recommended he try, and ended up selecting, with his 40 nits for scope content. There are significant trade-offs with his selected settings, but for him I think they make sense.
> 
> Given NinjaTypeR has brought up the topic, I wanted to again discuss the DTM settings and touch on the additional Service Mode settings:
> 
> My first point is "tweaker beware." We had a well know client really mess up his picture using the settings available in service mode. Extra control and plenty of rope to hang yourself, so to speak. However, given the topic came up I can only imagine some customers will want to become tweakers in Service Mode.
> 
> When we were optimizing the default settings we were mostly looking at theaters in the range of 80 to 150 nits. If you only have 40 nits, that is very limiting for DTM, since even an SDR commercial theater will have about 54 nits for SDR content. Having only 40 nits means essentially no room for highlights. NinjaTypeR's settings show this.
> 
> If you have only 40 to 50 nits, I recommend you consider a brighter projector or what I tell people all the time, a smaller screen. Having a bigger screen is impressive but having more light makes for better viewing. We currently have about 62 nits for the RS4500 in mid-laser on our 14 foot diagonal StudioTek 130, and 100 nits in high laser. IMO 60 nits is really about as low a brightness as I would consider for HDR content, and 100 nits is IMO a reasonable target brightness.
> 
> The Radiance Pro DTM is an evolution of Static Tone Mapping. This is why we have the controls the way we do. As we work more on DTM Dyn Pad, and desaturation, we are going to reevaluate the controls since at his point the "Dark Scene Max Light" is intended to match the maximum brightness, and "Max Light" is a trade-off for brightness versus saturation for very bright scenes. We are considering changing the control so you would set the "dark scene Max Light" at the 1X screen maximum brightness first and then adjust Max Light instead of the current "set Max Light and then Low Ratio." Not sure if we will. I mention this to make people aware of the _possible_ change.
> 
> DTM User Mode controls:
> 
> _Max Light:_ For a projector in the range of 80 to 150 nits, we are recommending 5x to 6x the measured maximum light output. If you set it to this the default Low Ratio of 31 is a good number to use. While some want to just enter the maximum measured brightness as the user interface, a lot of people do not have a colorimeter to measure this. For these people I have been recommending _The Meg_ at 1:08:00 with people on and near an overturned boat as a good scene to set Max Light. The trade-off is between maximizing light in the scene versus best color saturation for flesh tones.
> 
> _Low Ratio:_ This sets the "Dark Scene Max Light" which should be 1X measured max light, to maybe 1.5X. Yes, I agree, "Low Ratio" does not sound like the control to set maximum measured light. It is a historical artifact of static tone mapping, but it does what is needed. As mentioned we are considering changing how this control interacts in the menu. I believe we currently allow "Dark Scene Max Light" down to about 75 nits. Based on recent discussions, I am considering allowing this to go down to about 50 nits.
> 
> _Dyn Pad:_ Since DTM sets the transfer function for each scene on the first frame of the scene, Dyn Pad says how much head room to allow in case the scene gets a lot brighter later in the scene. With adaptation Dyn Pad can reduce the amount of pad and we are going to look into this, and in conjunction look into allowing faster adaptation within a scene. While some Pad is important to have, we have known for a long time we can optimize this further.
> 
> _DeSat:_ We took a light handed approach to desaturation and in our approach allowed some clipping. We are hearing people want less clipping and we are going to be working on this soon.
> 
> Service Mode control additions (use with caution):
> 
> _Low Shape_ and _High Shape:_ These define the shape of the curve that transitions from the (roughly) nit-for-nit lower range to the high nit roll-off range. A smaller number makes for a tighter curve, and a larger number makes for a more gentle curve. The Low Shape controls scenes in the range from the "Dark Scene Max Light" to about 1000 nits. The High Shape controls the shape of the curve for scenes above 1000 nits. _However_ this is not a hard switch over and these two controls are highly interactive. For example changing the High Shape _will_ affect scenes below 1000 nits. Note that below the "Dark Scene Max Light" the transfer function is linear and if the Dyn Pad for the scene is at or below the "Dark Scene Max Light" the response is approximately nit-for-nit.
> 
> _Low Tran_ and _High Tran:_ These controls move the Shape curve higher or lower. The Low Tran is roughly for the "Dark Scene Max Light" point up to about 1000 nits and the High Tran is for above 1000 nits. _However_ the High Tran _will_ affect scene below 1000nits. In addition the Shape and Tran parameters are _highly interactive.
> 
> Gamma:_ This allow you to change the gamma. If you want scene to come out of black faster for a little more pop, you can adjust this control.
> 
> _Black:_ If you have content that does not correctly get down to 10-bit code value 64 for black, you can adjust this Black Level to darken the black floor.
> 
> ====
> 
> Please use caution when using the additional controls available in service mode. If you make a change to these I strongly recommend you view a lot of different types of content to see how the changes affects various content. What looks good for one scene may not be optimal for another.
> 
> I have already discussed with NinjaTypeR the possibility to use his settings for 40 nit anamorphic viewing in some way to adjust defaults for this very dark case since we did not consider such a dark maximum brightness previously. Not sure we will or won't, but I plan to consider this as part of the changes we are planning to DTM. I am still of the opinion that if you have less than roughly 60 nits, you have a screen that is too big for your projector/screen combination. Still, this is obviously a limitation in some systems and we will consider if we should try to handle it with the defaults so people do not need to use Service Mode controls.


Thanks Jim
VERY...Informative, helpfull post!!


----------



## NinjaTypeR

So after lots of testing, I recommend people don’t change curve shape from defaults unless really struggling with light but instead use the transition value.

The reason is that having the curve shape too steep will affect skin highlights in brighter content where this may be obvious.

A good movie to see this with is the Matrix. There are plenty of highlights on faces where you might notice if you have a steep curve. If not bothered, then go for it and may need it with like 30nits (wow, I thought I had it bad).

Hence I backed off curve shape and used the transition value at around 10-11 which fixes the mid-tones enough to have peace and calm restored in my head and content higher up not being robbed of contrast / blown out.


----------



## Clark Burk

Just a precautionary question. I don’t really intend to mess with the service mode but should someone get into that mode and get lost will the factory reset still save the day? Second question is does the usual nothing gets saved until you hit save still apply?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Clark Burk said:


> Just a precautionary question. I don’t really intend to mess with the service mode but should someone get into that mode and get lost will the factory reset still save the day? Second question is does the usual nothing gets saved until you hit save still apply?


Yes, a full reset will restore settings but then you have to set up your Lumagen from scratch.

If you intend to mess with these, take a picture with your phone first so you have the original set of data.

Hitting Ok saves DTM settings. I am not sure if they get reset on a restart unless you save in the menu, Jim would know that. But let’s just say I took pictures just in case I pressed the wrong thing…


----------



## fatherom

NinjaTypeR said:


> Yes, a full reset will restore settings but then you have to set up your Lumagen from scratch.
> 
> If you intend to mess with these, take a picture with your phone first so you have the original set of data.
> 
> Hitting Ok saves DTM settings. I am not sure if they get reset on a restart unless you save in the menu, Jim would know that. But let’s just say I took pictures just in case I pressed the wrong thing…


There's a reset specific to JUST the DTM settings.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

As Jim said, it’s a loooooong rope to hang yourself with. It took me 4 days to go down the rabbit hole and find the way out of it. So changing stuff willy nilly is not a good idea. Transition value is the only thing I would personally recommend upping a little if you are either brightness starved or very sensitive to mid tones (their brightness or relative levels).

I tried gamma changes… bad idea on many levels. Curve shapes may work for very low nit scenarios but it will blow out higher content a bit quick.

Touch transition and touch nothin’ else or you do it at your own peril I think…


----------



## NinjaTypeR

fatherom said:


> There's a reset specific to JUST the DTM settings.


It’s funny cos I did not find it under reset! At least not on my firmware. How do you access it? Maybe I did it wrong!


----------



## fatherom

NinjaTypeR said:


> It’s funny cos I did not find it under reset! At least not on my firmware. How do you access it? Maybe I did it wrong!


In the regular menu, if you go to the DTM controls, there's a "restore defaults" that's specific to the DTM menu. I can't recall exactly (from memory) which menu it's in.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

fatherom said:


> In the regular menu, if you go to the DTM controls, there's a "restore defaults" that's specific to the DTM menu. I can't recall exactly (from memory) which menu it's in.


Ah ok! So it’s not in the reset menu. That’s why I was confused when Jim said it too. I’ll have a peek.

and that should restore service menu DTM too I guess?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

WARNING: Accessing service mode can mess up your settings to the point of TEARS. Take pictures, backups, etc before you mess with these or be ready to weep!

Work in progress settings. I had to up curve shape to 4 on the low controls. This is better when using a higher transition otherwise Matrix faces look blown out.

I was also using the lab rat in Life to optimize high ScrMax settings so the little buddy has enough detail.

these settings are with:
Max Light: 500
Low Ratio: 34
(DPAD 1 but adjust yo preference)

Take note of the alt key function on both screenshots when you highlight ratio… that’s how you know if you are in low or high.

Again, these changes work to prioritise mid-tones and may blow out highlights in some cases. I’m ok with some clipping and highlight compression. If too much, up the DPAD to preference!

Those who feel like helping to test, please kindly do so and report back thx.

ps: I can’t quite settle on low curve transition: 10 or 11. I have a feeling people with higher nits should choose 10. People with very low nits, 11! Test and see…


----------



## fatherom

NinjaTypeR said:


> WARNING: Accessing service mode can mess up your settings to the point of TEARS. Take pictures, backups, etc before you mess with these or be ready to weep!
> 
> Work in progress settings. I had to up curve shape to 4 on the low controls. This is better when using a higher transition otherwise Matrix faces look blown out.
> 
> I was also using the lab rat in Life to optimize high ScrMax settings so the little buddy has enough detail.
> 
> these settings are with:
> Max Light: 500
> Low Ratio: 34
> (DPAD 1 but adjust yo preference)
> 
> Take note of the alt key function on both screenshots when you highlight ratio… that’s how you know if you are in low or high.
> 
> Again, these changes work to prioritise mid-tones and may blow out highlights in some cases. I’m ok with some clipping and highlight compression. If too much, up the DPAD to preference!
> 
> Those who feel like helping to test, please kindly do so and report back thx.


I don’t fully understand the concern with tweaking settings. If you make a mistake, just don’t save and turn the lumagen off and on.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

fatherom said:


> I don’t fully understand the concern with tweaking settings. If you make a mistake, just don’t save and turn the lumagen off and on.


I work in IT. I learnt a long time ago there’s no such thing as “common sense” so never assume that people know what they are doing and that the machine will behave as expected!

But yes, hopefully no concern. I like the idea: don’t save and restart.


----------



## by96

jrp said:


> For now all other Radiance and Radiance Pro units get the current remote. Once we run out of current remotes, all units will ship with the new remote.
> 
> We will make the new remote available for purchase at some point for any who want to buy one.


Out of curiosity, are non-5348 LRPs shipping with the new or old remote now? My LRP is currently on order. 

Thanks!


----------



## fatherom

NinjaTypeR said:


> I work in IT. I learnt a long time ago there’s no such thing as “common sense” so never assume that people know what they are doing and that the machine will behave as expected!
> 
> But yes, hopefully no concern. I like the idea: don’t save and restart.


I’m a software engineer (nearly 30 years now). I honestly don’t think tweaking lumagen settings should make someone so concerned they’d be crying.


----------



## SJHT

If you back up your system and mess around, can all of this be restored if you load in the saved backup? Not personally going to try and hope Kris Deering comes around to my neck of the woods in the future. 😆


----------



## NinjaTypeR

SJHT said:


> If you back up your system and mess around, can all of this be restored if you load in the saved backup? Not personally going to try and hope Kris Deering comes around to my neck of the woods in the future. 😆


Jim is working on some firmware changes for defaults based on recent discussions with a few people. Unless you’re a tweaker, I think it’s good to wait until settings have been fully tested and validated by everyone. Then you’ll get them in a firmware update.

Not sure about Lumagen backups. I have seen it in the menu but haven’t used the feature. Maybe someone else can tell you their experience with it.


----------



## Mark_H

NinjaTypeR said:


> So after lots of testing, I recommend people don’t change curve shape from defaults unless really struggling with light but instead use the transition value.


FWIW, my room is 50nits. After a couple of years wrangling the DTM myself, including the service mode settings, and never really being satisfied with the results, I reverted to the defaults and BINGO! Perfection. I think Jim and Kris did a lot of work nailing down the best settings over that time and I wasted an awful lot of time ignoring their advice. Lesson learned.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Mark_H said:


> FWIW, my room is 50nits. After a couple of years wrangling the DTM myself, including the service mode settings, and never really being satisfied with the results, I reverted to the defaults and BINGO! Perfection. I think Jim and Kris did a lot of work nailing down the best settings over that time and I wasted an awful lot of time ignoring their advice. Lesson learned.


That’s great, Mark. Glad you found them working.

The current defaults don’t work well for me because I feel like the transition happens smack bang in the middle of mid tones and at times it’s distracting. Not everyone is sensitive to this but I am very much so was taken out of the movie every other scene going… oh, that doesn’t work!

I think Jim is considering some similar changes to defaults based on Javs feedback so interesting we are converging on a similar thing.

The last settings I posted now work for all content in my setup - both at 60 and 40nits. I settled on 10 for transition in the end and it’s very balanced overall. No perceptual desaturation or crushing of mid-tones (which was one of my major issues with the defaults.) 

edit: don’t want to give the impression this will work for everyone. You introduce some highlight compression in difficult content to give more range to mid-tones. It’s a trade-off I must make because of how sensitive I am to this issue. I need mid-tones to play “nit for nit” in relative terms (multiplier at play of course, but relative relationships kept).


----------



## blake

NinjaTypeR said:


> That’s great, Mark. Glad you found them working.
> 
> The current defaults don’t work well for me because I feel like the transition happens smack bang in the middle of mid tones and at times it’s distracting. Not everyone is sensitive to this but I am very much so was taken out of the movie every other scene going… oh, that doesn’t work!
> 
> I think Jim is considering some similar changes to defaults based on Javs feedback so interesting we are converging on a similar thing.
> 
> The last settings I posted now work for all content in my setup - both at 60 and 40nits. I settled on 10 for transition in the end and it’s very balanced overall. No perceptual desaturation or crushing of mid-tones (which was one of my major issues with the defaults.)
> 
> edit: don’t want to give the impression this will work for everyone. You introduce some highlight compression in difficult content to give more range to mid-tones. It’s a trade-off I must make because of how sensitive I am to this issue. I need mid-tones to play “nit for nit” in relative terms (multiplier at play of course, but relative relationships kept).


A little off topic (and novice- sorry), but if you have no specialized equipment beyond a basic lux meter (say from Amazon) … how do you calculate your projector’s nits ? 

I know Lux / 3.14 = nits, but when one quotes their projector nits on this thread for example .. -what test pattern is used (on the Lumagen?)
-what setting on your projector (usual viewing color profile or a “full brightness” mode) 
-what part of the screen are you measuring (middle or edge) ?


----------



## OzHDHT

blake said:


> A little off topic (and novice- sorry), but if you have no specialized equipment beyond a basic lux meter (say from Amazon) … how do you calculate your projector’s nits ?
> 
> I know Lux / 3.14 = nits, but when one quotes their projector nits on this thread for example .. -what test pattern is used (on the Lumagen?)
> -what setting on your projector (usual viewing color profile or a “full brightness” mode)
> -what part of the screen are you measuring (middle or edge) ?



Here you go, I was actually doing so measurements today on my NZ9 after finally upgrading to a decent meter. Boy what a difference. Now I know why I instinctively arrived at the DTM settings for min/max light that I did. Also was good to know I can squeeze out even a bit more max light than I was and quite a bit more if I use a 6 times factor.









Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 /...


To be honest with you, I have no idea how to go about checking the "nits" on my display. I'm sure it would help to know about how to set the brightness level and I even purchased a light meter a couple years ago. But I'll have to be schooled how on to actually do this.:o That's fine, I'm sure...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Naiera

I just picked that white box test pattern at 100 somethings, measured lux, did PI to it, and that's the number I've quoted a few times in this thread 🤷‍♂️


----------



## desray2k

NinjaTypeR said:


> They are only available in service mode and it’s probably best you don’t change stuff there unless you know what you are doing.
> 
> When in service mode, the left arrow DTM menu changes to reveal the in-depth settings (and Alt key changes between high and low setting sets). If you end up doing anything, either take a pic or write down the settings otherwise you could mess things up badly!


Just make sure you don't save the settings, you can test until your heart content.


----------



## desray2k

NinjaTypeR said:


> If you intend to mess with these, take a picture with your phone first so you have the original set of data.
> 
> Hitting Ok saves DTM settings. I am not sure if they get reset on a restart unless you save in the menu, Jim would know that. But let’s just say I took pictures just in case I pressed the wrong thing…


Use the software provided by Lumagen to save the settings. In future, if something screw up or perhaps upgrade to a newer model of Lumagen RP, you can reload the settings with ease.


----------



## Mark_H

NinjaTypeR said:


> edit: don’t want to give the impression this will work for everyone. You introduce some highlight compression in difficult content to give more range to mid-tones. It’s a trade-off I must make because of how sensitive I am to this issue. I need mid-tones to play “nit for nit” in relative terms (multiplier at play of course, but relative relationships kept).


The problem I found was that my low nits encouraged me to use extreme settings, which looked great on one title and then terrible on the next. Eventually I decided to start over, beginning with the default settings only to find that they were the numbers that worked best across the most material. Good luck!


----------



## by96

by96 said:


> Out of curiosity, are non-5348 LRPs shipping with the new or old remote now? My LRP is currently on order.
> 
> Thanks!


For anyone interested, I found out through my dealer today that all LRPs have been shipping with the new remote for the past year or so. Backlighting would be great, but I much prefer the design of the new one!


----------



## Surge2018

What's the best way of watching Dolby and other demo trailers? I have downloaded a bunch of 4K and other high res sample clips onto a USB stick. Is the only way to connect a laptop to one of the Lumagen's HDMI inputs, or can the USB stick be connected to the Lumagen for playback?

EDIT: adding to Apple TV Library seems to be the easiest...


----------



## Nima

Oppo UHD player or Sony players do work well with media files.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Mark_H said:


> The problem I found was that my low nits encouraged me to use extreme settings, which looked great on one title and then terrible on the next. Eventually I decided to start over, beginning with the default settings only to find that they were the numbers that worked best across the most material. Good luck!


Thank you.
Let’s see where we end up after lots more testing.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Mark_H said:


> The problem I found was that my low nits encouraged me to use extreme settings, which looked great on one title and then terrible on the next. Eventually I decided to start over, beginning with the default settings only to find that they were the numbers that worked best across the most material. Good luck!


Mark. Just out of curiosity, what max light and Low Ratio are you using?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

After doing a lot more testing - and trying to get 4000nit titles to play consistently as well… 

The default curve shapes for both high and low are pretty much bang on! Very well judged even for low nits.

So to prioritise more mid-tones and compress highlights, only the transition values need to change from default… there is one for both low and high ScrMax.

In my case, I settled on 9 for low and 13 for high. This gives me more punch and less “wax face“ occurrences (too much mid-tone compression).

Also managed to settle on:
Low Ratio: 31
MaxLight: 400

So far this is the most consistent playback. I’ll keep testing. Now 4000nit titles like Aquaman play well - as well as 1000nit titles.

is this a trade-off? Yup. We shall see if it keeps working consistently enough. I’ll report back.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

I believe I worked it out finally… Sent this to Jim too, but including here so low-nit users or those sensitive to mid-tone compression can test, report and use.

As you decrease Max Light under 500, you may also need to scale the curve transitions upwards in lock-step, but not necessarily in a linear fashion. If you don’t, you introduce a lot of mid-tone compression and faces start to lose detail.

Remember I’m between 40 and 60nits. The defaults will likely work fine over 60nits. But here’s what seems to work better for me…

Max Light: 450
Low Trans: 8
Hi Trans: 12 (you could do 11 but test on 4000nit titles like Aquaman)

Max Light: 400
Low Trans: 9
Hi Trans: 13 (you could do 12 but test on Aquaman)

Max Light: under 400
Low Trans: 10
Hi Trans: 14 (you could do 13 but test on Aquaman)

I set mine to 10,14 for now so I can lower max light between 400 and 340 for the occasion I want a brighter image and still keep enough mid-range detail.

If you test it, please report back so we know if this is on the right track in general or not. Maybe it’s ok as is for most users, only not for the odd ones.


----------



## Mark_H

NinjaTypeR said:


> Mark. Just out of curiosity, what max light and Low Ratio are you using?


From memory, Max Light is 250 or maybe 300. I seem to remember the advice was 4-6 times measured nits. Low Ratio is whatever the default is.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Mark_H said:


> From memory, Max Light is 250 or maybe 300. I seem to remember the advice was 4-6 times measured nits. Low Ratio is whatever the default is.


Wow, pretty low. Sounds like the defaults work really well for you. I’m glad.

If you are up for it, you could try low trans at 9 and high trans at 13, see if you like it / can tell us what you see. it might help if there’s more user data. My vision only isn’t quite diverse user data.

Of course, if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it…


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Btw, now I can see how good the tone mapping is. It is kind of a miracle that so much detail is kept in the image at such light levels while the image is still punchy where it needs to be. Truly excellent!
Now onto increasing my light levels…


----------



## Clark Burk

NinjaTypeR said:


> Btw, now I can see how good the tone mapping is. It is kind of a miracle that so much detail is kept in the image at such light levels while the image is still punchy where it needs to be. Truly excellent!
> Now onto increasing my light levels…


That last sentence is the difficult part. Several options available. Brighter projector (or new bulb if your current bulb has dimmed a bit), smaller screen, or higher gain screen. Also placement of the projector closer to the short throw distance or using a A-lens on a scope screen. All options with trade offs. That’s what makes this hobby fun.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

So I’m coming to the conclusion that @Mark_H is right. There’s no way to make all content play consistently without the defaults. It seems to be what the algorithm was designed around. At least not when you have such low nits… oh well! 

The only way to get content to play consistent is to lower max light to the appropriate level. Playing with transition levels makes some content too blown out when lowering max light. Some episodes of The Expanse are like a neon show.

Factory reset, putting remote away and watch it for a few weeks. Let’s see what I come to… it’s definitely a different “look” I’m used to compared to JVC’s DTM or custom curves. But I’ll give it a chance… over and out!


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Clark Burk said:


> That last sentence is the difficult part. Several options available. Brighter projector (or new bulb if your current bulb has dimmed a bit), smaller screen, or higher gain screen. Also placement of the projector closer to the short throw distance or using a A-lens on a scope screen. All options with trade offs. That’s what makes this hobby fun.


Yup. I’ve ordered a new lamp, but it’s taking a while to arrive.

Beyond that, it’s either a new projector (I am looking at options), or an a-lens and/or a white screen.

New Lamp: 20-30% more light
White screen: 20% more light
A-lens: 10-14% more light

So 40nits would become around 60+nits and 60nits around 90+

I should probably switch to a white screen either way since the room is all black now. It’s a hangover from the dark grey walls…


----------



## fatherom

Watched Top Gun Maverick. May have been one of the best home theater experiences I’ve ever had. 

The dtm made my 885es shine. The imax scenes were unreal on my 128” 16:9 screen. The atmos too. Was glorious.


----------



## Naiera

Maverick was a 4K streamy rental or purchase?


----------



## fatherom

Naiera said:


> Maverick was a 4K streamy rental or purchase?


It's only available digitally right now. Watched it on iTunes.


----------



## wjchan

fatherom said:


> It's only available digitally right now. Watched it on iTunes.


Also available in less compressed (video) and uncompressed (audio) on Kaleidescape.


----------



## Woof Woof

fatherom said:


> Watched Top Gun Maverick. May have been one of the best home theater experiences I’ve ever had.
> 
> The dtm made my 885es shine. The imax scenes were unreal on my 128” 16:9 screen. The atmos too. Was glorious.


I only watched the opening act through the Lumagen on the 760ES and that Darkstar against the backdrop of the sun.. could really tell the DTM at work. Simply stunning. And that Atmos track..


----------



## audioguy

wjchan said:


> Also available in less compressed (video) and uncompressed (audio) on Kaleidescape.


I simply can not imagine watching THIS movie via streaming (COMPRESSED audio) if one is fortunate enough to have a fully equiped home theater.


----------



## fatherom

audioguy said:


> I simply can not imagine watching THIS movie via streaming (COMPRESSED audio) if one is fortunate enough to have a fully equiped home theater.


Well, I'm biding my time until November 1 when I can buy the disc. Trust me, the iTunes version is EXCELLENT.


----------



## by96

fatherom said:


> Well, I'm biding my time until November 1 when I can buy the disc. Trust me, the iTunes version is EXCELLENT.


I have the disk on pre-order but my family insisted I go ahead and buy the iTunes version now. Will cost an extra $20 (since the disk comes with a free digital code), but must do as I am told.


----------



## desray2k

NinjaTypeR said:


> In my case, I settled on 9 for low and 13 for high. This gives me more punch and less “wax face“ occurrences (too much mid-tone compression).
> 
> Also managed to settle on:
> Low Ratio: 31
> MaxLight: 400


LoL...this is exactly the setting that I am using since day 1. Guess what, that's the default for Lumagen RP.


----------



## Clark Burk

fatherom said:


> Watched Top Gun Maverick. May have been one of the best home theater experiences I’ve ever had.
> 
> The dtm made my 885es shine. The imax scenes were unreal on my 128” 16:9 screen. The atmos too. Was glorious.


I was curious. Roughly what percentage of the movie is in imax and what percentage is in scope?


----------



## fatherom

Clark Burk said:


> I was curious. Roughly what percentage of the movie is in imax and what percentage is in scope?


Hmmm...I would say about 40% is in imax? all the action scenes and flight scenes.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Until I get Kris here for a 3D LUT on my Lumagen, I am stuck with the cal he did on my projector alone in 2020 when I was using a 1.4 Silver Ticket 142" screen. I remember him telling me that I was low fL for my projector then, I think 14fL. Since then I have moved to a ST130 G4 150". I am using defaults at 31, 3, 320 Max after playing with the Max in realtime while watching a variety of sources; I am not unhappy with this setup although I would like it optimized with the Pro. While I could be criticized for going too big for my light output, buying the LRP was to prevent me from spending on a NZ8. I think too many foilks get hung up on the latest/greatest and more light output when there is still a lot of life left in what they already have. I only have 3000 hrs on my LS10500 and I don't plan to replace it anytime soon; it does what I need it to do and stepping up looks a lot like a waste of resources to me, at least for my case. I would rather take a vacation. So all of the improvements that can be wrought from improved pipeline, dtm and eventually a full calibration here are invaluable to me. The LRP has saved me well north of $10k for now.


----------



## Clark Burk

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Until I get Kris here for a 3D LUT on my Lumagen, I am stuck with the cal he did on my projector alone in 2020 when I was using a 1.4 Silver Ticket 142" screen. I remember him telling me that I was low fL for my projector then, I think 14fL. Since then I have moved to a ST130 G4 150". I am using defaults at 31, 3, 320 Max after playing with the Max in realtime while watching a variety of sources; I am not unhappy with this setup although I would like it optimized with the Pro. While I could be criticized for going too big for my light output, buying the LRP was to prevent me from spending on a NZ8. I think too many foilks get hung up on the latest/greatest and more light output when there is still a lot of life left in what they already have. I only have 3000 hrs on my LS10500 and I don't plan to replace it anytime soon; it does what I need it to do and stepping up looks a lot like a waste of resources to me, at least for my case. I would rather take a vacation. So all of the improvements that can be wrought from improved pipeline, dtm and eventually a full calibration here are invaluable to me. The LRP has saved me well north of $10k for now.


I don’t think anyone will criticize you for liking what you like. Sure a new Epson LS12000 would really light up that 150” screen of yours but if you’re happy with your current setup enjoy it. Perhaps check out the new Epson 12000 with 4k HDR material at a dealer and see if it gets your interest. If not lucky you. You have money for other endeavors.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Unfortunately, the new Epsons don't support 3d and I have a good library of 3d titles. The one situation that more light would definitely be welcome in my room, but it isn't unwatchable. I just have to accept that it will be dim. Probably not as dim as a commercial theater, but still less pop. If the new Epsons supported 3d it would be much more difficult to hold on to the 10500. But they don't. so here I am.


----------



## clausdk

My Lumagen is set to automatically switch aspect to fit my scope screen, however can I lock it to scope and have it stay that way even if the content changes? 

Right now is goes back and forth with a delay and is not so optimal for that type of content.


----------



## Naiera

I believe something along those lines was discussed just a few pages back. You should have a look


----------



## Clark Burk

Deleted


----------



## jont-uk

Clark Burk said:


> It would perhaps be useful to those with 16:9 screens to get the quicker aspect ratio change. The Top Gun Maverick movie and others with the changing aspect ratios would benefit from that if you had a 16:9 or imax sized screen. I can't remember from seeing it at the movies if TGM will cut off important information from the top and bottom if watched in constant 2.35:1. Has anyone downloaded the movie and watched it on a scope screen to check it out?


Not sure there is anything 'important' that you'd miss a significant issue with, but the crop would lose 15% or so top and bottom so it would impact - but you'd hope that everything was broadly framed to happen in the middle of the screen - I'll let you know when I watch it tomorrow on my 2.35:1 ...


----------



## fatherom

Clark Burk said:


> It would perhaps be useful to those with 16:9 screens to get the quicker aspect ratio change. The Top Gun Maverick movie and others with the changing aspect ratios would benefit from that if you had a 16:9 or imax sized screen. I can't remember from seeing it at the movies if TGM will cut off important information from the top and bottom if watched in constant 2.35:1. Has anyone downloaded the movie and watched it on a scope screen to check it out?


Why would those with 16:9 screens (like me) need aspect ratio detection? One watches stuff in native 16:9 and you use other things (like masking) for consistent black bars. When I watched Top Gun, I just watched the movie normally and saw black bars during certain parts. People with 16:9 screens have it easy when it comes to movies with changing aspect ratios. It's people with scope screens that have to jump through hoops.


----------



## acmcool

Faster aspect switching would be great to have with more and more titles coming with varriable aspect..


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I have a scope screen and anamorphic lens. I just set it to 2:35 and turn off detection. Then you don’t see any switching. 

This is how you would have seen it in a cinema that isn’t imax


----------



## Clark Burk

fatherom said:


> Why would those with 16:9 screens (like me) need aspect ratio detection? One watches stuff in native 16:9 and you use other things (like masking) for consistent black bars. When I watched Top Gun, I just watched the movie normally and saw black bars during certain parts. People with 16:9 screens have it easy when it comes to movies with changing aspect ratios. It's people with scope screens that have to jump through hoops.


You're right, Not sure what I was thinking just leaving it in 16:9 would work fine. I deleted the erroneous post.


----------



## dormie1360

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have a scope screen and anamorphic lens. I just set it to 2:35 and turn off detection. Then you don’t see any switching.
> 
> This is how you would have seen it in a cinema that isn’t imax


Just finished watching it on a 2:35 screen. Above works fine. What little that is cut off on the top and bottom during the flying scenes is not noticeable.

As was mentioned earlier, if you manually select 2:35 on your remote when the movie starts, the automatic switching feature will be bypassed.


----------



## Michael-S

dormie1360 said:


> Just finished watching it on a 2:35 screen. Above works fine. What little that is cut off on the top and bottom during the flying scenes is not noticeable.
> 
> As was mentioned earlier, if you manually select 2:35 on your remote when the movie starts, the automatic switching feature will be bypassed.


I just finished watching it sourced from Kaleidescape and the switching was handled quite well, I was never distracted by it. NX7/DCR lens/LRP on 2.4:1 screen.

Great movie btw!


----------



## audioguy

dormie1360 said:


> Just finished watching it on a 2:35 screen. Above works fine. What little that is cut off on the top and bottom during the flying scenes is not noticeable.
> 
> As was mentioned earlier, if you manually select 2:35 on your remote when the movie starts, the automatic switching feature will be bypassed.


I just finished watching as well (Lumagen/RS4100/Panamorph). Next time I will lock in 2:35. Lumagen image size changes are far from instantaneous. Quite annoying. Speaking of image, this has to be one of the best 4K/HDR images I have seen. Simply stunning. I will want to watch again, alone. This movie deserves to be played at or near reference and my wife is not a fan of that volume level. 

LOVED the movie. Definitely my kind of entertainment!! Tom Cruise may be a wierd guy but he sure makes good movies (and looks darn good for being 60)!!


----------



## Woof Woof

When I watched Maverick in the cinema, the opening scene was quite grainy I thought. For a minute I thought I had walked into the screening of the original 80s movie. 

On the streaming, it was surprisingly clean and high res and sharp. Not sure if this was the LRP


----------



## NinjaTypeR

@woofer was kind enough to help me do more testing. So basically, when you put the transitions higher, you do need a bit more max light not to blow content out, especially 4000nit titles.

So my strategy of DECREASING MaxLight to make some crappy Disney+ “SDR in a DV container” titles optimised backfired. With my increased transition values, I need to have MaxLight at least 400 or some content really blows out.

@woofer has double my nits - and probably a more critical eye for highlight compression - so in his setup it needs 600-650 MaxLight not to blow stuff out and he didn’t aggressively raise the transition values unlike me. I believe he tested 9 and 13 for low and high transition.

I’ve got to say, this is working really well for now and all content plays consistently well for my tastes - except for those crappily authored SDR in DV titles. But they also look bad no matter what you do so whatever.

More testing of course. But I had it backwards… you can’t really up transitions below 400 MaxLight, definitely not as aggressively as I did.

I’ll get the content on discs @woofer recommended to do some more testing with… but this works great with all my discs, even compared to LLDV.

But I do need more light, as my light output is marginal. No doubt about that…  

Settings I’m at for reference:
Low Ratio: 34
MaxLight: 400
Lo Trans: 10
Hi Trans: 14

To be tested more but I’m unlikely to optimize a few really bright scenes with my light output as it will make everything else play too dark at my 40nits in CinemaScope. Possibly as I put in the new lamp+ switch to white screen.


----------



## woofer

NinjaTypeR said:


> @woofer was kind enough to help me do more testing. So basically, when you put the transitions higher, you do need a bit more max light not to blow content out, especially 4000nit titles.
> 
> So my strategy of DECREASING MaxLight to make some crappy Disney+ “SDR in a DV container” titles optimised backfired. With my increased transition values, I need to have MaxLight at least 400 or some content really blows out.
> 
> @woofer has double my nits - and probably a more critical eye for highlight compression - so in his setup it needs 600-650 MaxLight not to blow stuff out and he didn’t aggressively raise the transition values unlike me. I believe he tested 9 and 13 for low and high transition.
> 
> I’ve got to say, this is working really well for now and all content plays consistently well for my tastes - except for those crappily authored SDR in DV titles. But they also look bad no matter what you do so whatever.
> 
> More testing of course. But I had it backwards… you can’t really up transitions below 400 MaxLight, definitely not as aggressively as I did.
> 
> I’ll get the content on discs @woofer recommended to do some more testing with… but this works great with all my discs, even compared to LLDV.
> 
> But I do need more light, as my light output is marginal. No doubt about that…
> 
> Settings I’m at for reference:
> Low Ratio: 34
> MaxLight: 400
> Lo Trans: 10
> Hi Trans: 14
> 
> To be tested more but I’m unlikely to optimize a few really bright scenes with my light output as it will make everything else play too dark at my 40nits in CinemaScope. Possibly as I put in the new lamp+ switch to white screen.



I am using..
Low Ratio: 29
Dpad: 2
MaxLight: 650
Lo Trans: 9
Hi Trans: 13

My actual l light output is 105 nits


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I have a scope screen and anamorphic lens. I just set it to 2:35 and turn off detection. Then you don’t see any switching.
> 
> This is how you would have seen it in a cinema that isn’t imax


Agree. I don’t see the point AT ALL of having faster aspect switching for variable titles when the right thing to do is lock the aspect for the scope presentation. If you want to watch it properly with switching aspect ratio, lock the aspect to 16x9 as this is the ONLY way it is showing as intended by the director (constant width). Actually going from scope to 16x9 and back makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and would be the complete opposite of the intended projection.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I don’t see the point AT ALL of having faster aspect switching for variable titles when the right thing to do is lock the aspect for the scope presentation. If you want to watch it properly with switching aspect ratio, lock the aspect to 16x9 as this is the ONLY way it is showing as intended by the director (constant width). Actually going from scope to 16x9 and back makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and would be the complete opposite of the intended projection.


If at the beginning of the movie, I select 2:35 on the Lumagen remote, will it stay at 2:35 or do I need to do something else to lock it into place?


----------



## jont-uk

audioguy said:


> If at the beginning of the movie, I select 2:35 on the Lumagen remote, will it stay at 2:35 or do I need to do something else to lock it into place?


Yes ... and the IMAX scenes will just be auto-cropped top and bottom ...


----------



## audioguy

jont-uk said:


> Yes ... and the IMAX scenes will just be auto-cropped top and bottom ...


Maybe so, but not by much - and that will be a lot less annoying than the constant back and forth between the two aspect ratios,


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I don’t see the point AT ALL of having faster aspect switching for variable titles when the right thing to do is lock the aspect for the scope presentation. If you want to watch it properly with switching aspect ratio, lock the aspect to 16x9 as this is the ONLY way it is showing as intended by the director (constant width). Actually going from scope to 16x9 and back makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and would be the complete opposite of the intended projection.


That's what I do too. IF the movie is 50% or more 16:9 ( looking at you Tenet and Dunkirk ) I watch it as a 16:9 movie .


----------



## thebland

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I don’t see the point AT ALL of having faster aspect switching for variable titles when the right thing to do is lock the aspect for the scope presentation. If you want to watch it properly with switching aspect ratio, lock the aspect to 16x9 as this is the ONLY way it is showing as intended by the director (constant width). Actually going from scope to 16x9 and back makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and would be the complete opposite of the intended projection.


Anyway to have the Lumagen 'stickied' to 2.39 and when 16:9 material comes to quickly convert that to NLS so that a 2.39 sized picture is constant throughout the entire movie? (or does the Lumagen always convert native 16:9 to NLS when there is a 2.39 'stickied' aspect)? This would be better than leaving at 2.39 and stretching the 16:9 material. In theory, I guess, 16:9 would not be cropped.

Thanks!


----------



## fatherom

thebland said:


> This would be better than leaving at 2.39 and stretching the 16:9 material.


No one is doing this. They're locking the aspect to 2.39 at the beginning, and then watching the whole film in 2.39. When 16:9 sequences come up, they're merely cropped off the top and bottom.

Also, the current aspect ratio detection is not instant.


----------



## MDesigns

thebland said:


> Anyway to have the Lumagen 'stickied' to 2.39 and when 16:9 material comes to quickly convert that to NLS so that a 2.39 sized picture is constant throughout the entire movie? (or does the Lumagen always convert native 16:9 to NLS when there is a 2.39 'stickied' aspect)? This would be better than leaving at 2.39 and stretching the 16:9 material. In theory, I guess, 16:9 would not be cropped.
> 
> Thanks!


Isn't that how it works if you enable auto aspect and NLS for 16:9? No need for anything sticky. Problem is still probably the slowliness of auto aspect that could make the switchies jarring.


----------



## audioguy

fatherom said:


> No one is doing this. They're locking the aspect to 2.39 at the beginning, and then watching the whole film in 2.39. When 16:9 sequences come up, they're merely cropped off the top and bottom.
> 
> Also, the current aspect ratio detection is not instant.


Not sure why folks keep saying the non 2:35 AR was 16 x 9. It wasn't in my room. It looked more like 1:85 or maybe 2.0. I use an A-Lens and Lumagen. And you are most certainly correct in "not instant". That's why switching AR is no fun, regardless of the Director's intent. But it wouldn't be any more fun if it was instant.


----------



## fatherom

audioguy said:


> Not sure why folks keep saying the non 2:35 AR was 16 x 9. It wasn't in my room. It looked more like 1:85 or maybe 2.0. I use an A-Lens and Lumagen. And you are most certainly correct in "not instant". That's why switching AR is no fun, regardless of the Director's intent. But it wouldn't be any more fun if it was instant.


Fair point...yeah, the imax scenes are 1.9:1 if I recall. I think it's more that it's NOT scope.


----------



## thebland

audioguy said:


> Not sure why folks keep saying the non 2:35 AR was 16 x 9. It wasn't in my room. It looked more like 1:85 or maybe 2.0. I use an A-Lens and Lumagen. And you are most certainly correct in "not instant". That's why switching AR is no fun, regardless of the Director's intent. But it wouldn't be any more fun if it was instant.


 So, it sounds like the consensus is 'sticky' scope.. Maybe I won't notice much of the cropping... I have a similar set up to you. Worked out well?!


----------



## audioguy

thebland said:


> So, it sounds like the consensus is 'sticky' scope.. Maybe I won't notice much of the cropping... I have a similar set up to you. *Worked out well?!*


I didn't watch it that way but I am more than willing to give up a smidge of top and bottom when expanding the 2.0 (or 1.85) to 2:39 vs the AR switching. I will be watching again this weekend with some friends and wil most certainly lock it to 2:39 then.


----------



## fatherom

audioguy said:


> I didn't watch it that way but I am more than willing to give up a smidge of top and bottom when expanding the 2.0 (or 1.85) to 2:39 vs the AR switching. I will be watching again this weekend with some friends and wil most certainly lock it to 2:39 then.


I mentioned above that it's 1.9:1 for the imax scenes.


----------



## thebland

So if 16:9 is cropped you’ll lose about 10% of the picture on top and 10% on the bottom.


----------



## fatherom

thebland said:


> So if 16:9 is cropped you’ll lose about 10% of the picture on top and 10% on the bottom.


Sometimes I use the lumagen masking feature for 2.35:1 films since they slightly bleed into the edge of my 2.37:1 masking panels. When I crop/mask, I do about 12.7% on the top, and 12.3% on the bottom.


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## bjorg

I have a 2.0 display. That has been one of my best choices, thanks to Cineramax. It strikes the perfect balance for me!

Can't wait to get back from vacation and watch Maverick!


----------



## MOberhardt

bjorg said:


> I have a 2.0 display. That has been one of my best choices, thanks to Cineramax. If strikes the perfect balance for me!
> 
> Can't wait to get back from vacation and watch Maverick!


I keep thinking I should get a full panel width supporting screen (eg for 4096x2160) and use the Lumagen for switching for that, so 2.35 are full panel, 1.85 are full height.


----------



## acmcool

Is Lumagen planning to fix scalar issues? Seems pretty bad


----------



## audioguy

thebland said:


> So if 16:9 is cropped you’ll lose about 10% of the picture on top and 10% on the bottom.


It is not 16 x 9 (1.7). It is 1.91. When watching the movie, try 2:35 and if you don't like it, don't use it. The vast majority of the movie is 2:35. You could play around with NLS but since the entire movie is not 1.91, I'm not sure what that would look like in the 2:35 portions.


----------



## MDesigns

bjorg said:


> I have a 2.0 display. That has been one of my best choices, thanks to Cineramax. It strikes the perfect balance for me!
> 
> Can't wait to get back from vacation and watch Maverick!


Do you use Lumagens autoaspect to handle shifting content, or how do you plan to watch the Maverick? So you get full width for 2,35:1 and full height for the 1,9:1 and get the most out of your display? Or maybe just cropping to constant width is the best case, you get 2,35:1 and then it "opens up" to 2.0:1 in the taller portions. That is probably the best. I think I would love a 2.0:1 aspect too


----------



## fatherom

audioguy said:


> It is not 16 x 9 (1.7). It is 1.91. When watching the movie, try 2:35 and if you don't like it, don't use it. The vast majority of the movie is 2:35. You could play around with NLS but since the entire movie is not 1.91, I'm not sure what that would look like in the 2:35 portions.


Do you mean 1.90:1? (not 1.91). 

I think about 40% of the film is in 1.90:1. I would not, personally, call 60% a vast majority of the movie.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I don’t see the point AT ALL of having faster aspect switching for variable titles when the right thing to do is lock the aspect for the scope presentation. If you want to watch it properly with switching aspect ratio, lock the aspect to 16x9 as this is the ONLY way it is showing as intended by the director (constant width). Actually going from scope to 16x9 and back makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and would be the complete opposite of the intended projection.


It is always worth pointing out that although constant width is the way intended for sure, the vertical centre crop is often not what was used for the scope presentation (there are some really good examples from Tenet that I've linked before, here it is again: Tenet is 2.2 CIH Safe).

So basically, with a scope screen and an AR switching title you're pretty much SOL if you want to watch anything that's totally as the director intended, as none of the choices you could make with any of the processors out there will result in something where the frames match the proper scope presentation of the title frame for frame.

Best thing you can do is hunt out the scope version of the title, then you will actually be watching something that is as intended. Everything else is a compromise in one direction or another.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> Agree. I don’t see the point AT ALL of having faster aspect switching for variable titles when the right thing to do is lock the aspect for the scope presentation. If you want to watch it properly with switching aspect ratio, lock the aspect to 16x9 as this is the ONLY way it is showing as intended by the director (constant width). Actually going from scope to 16x9 and back makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and would be the complete opposite of the intended projection.


I´d prefer to let the client decide, rather than dictating how he has to watch a movie.
We´ve got a couple of clients who prefer the way you describe it, and others who prefer it differently.


----------



## SJHT

I have a 16:9 screen. Locked in at 16:9 AR and turned off all of my auto masking, etc. Zoomed the 1.9 AR IMAX scenes to fill the screen, locked it in and watched the movie. It was great and the sound was amazing. SJ


----------



## fatherom

SJHT said:


> I have a 16:9 screen. Locked in at 16:9 AR and turned off all of my auto masking, etc. Zoomed the 1.9 AR IMAX scenes to fill the screen, locked it in and watched the movie. It was great and the sound was amazing. SJ


Curious that you chose to zoom the 1.9 imax scenes...the black bars on those are minimal. And by zooming like that, you would cut off some of the sides from the scope scenes.


----------



## SJHT

fatherom said:


> Curious that you chose to zoom the 1.9 imax scenes...the black bars on those are minimal. And by zoom liking that, you would cut off some of the sides from the scope scenes.


Just my personal choice. Folks can watch anyway they want. Yes some cut off, but very minimal as it isn’t much zoom. And zero black bars for the IMAX scenes. All black bars aren’t as black as masking unless you own an Eclipse.


----------



## fatherom

SJHT said:


> Just my personal choice. Folks can watch anyway they want. Yes some cut off, but very minimal as it isn’t much zoom. And zero black bars for the IMAX scenes. All black bars aren’t as black as masking unless you own an Eclipse.


You did the zooming at/on the projector, right?


----------



## SJHT

fatherom said:


> You did the zooming at/on the projector, right?


Not sure what you mean. Used ZOOM on the Lumagen Pro to fill the screen and just left it there for the entire movie. SJ


----------



## bearcat2002

I'm probably making this too hard but I'm trying to watch the movie on my 16:9 screen both ways. If I press 1.9 source on the Lumagen remote the ATV completely fills my screen and stays that way. But since I have an electronic masking screen from top/bottom to give me s pseudo scope screen, I was trying to figure out how to keep the movie playing at 2.4 the entire movie. Tried virtually every button combo. Sorry for the dumb question.


----------



## Kris Deering

acmcool said:


> Is Lumagen planning to fix scalar issues? Seems pretty bad


Yeah, I can't believe how flooded this user's forum has been over the last 20 years with complaints about ringing and everything..........


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> It is always worth pointing out that although constant width is the way intended for sure, the vertical centre crop is often not what was used for the scope presentation (there are some really good examples from Tenet that I've linked before, here it is again: Tenet is 2.2 CIH Safe).
> 
> So basically, with a scope screen and an AR switching title you're pretty much SOL if you want to watch anything that's totally as the director intended, as none of the choices you could make with any of the processors out there will result in something where the frames match the proper scope presentation of the title frame for frame.
> 
> Best thing you can do is hunt out the scope version of the title, then you will actually be watching something that is as intended. Everything else is a compromise in one direction or another.


I wouldn't say you are SOL. There are only a few titles that were composed differently for theatrical. Most of the switching aspect movies on the market today are literally open matte. The exception is a Transformer movie (that was a joke when it came to aspect ratios) and the Nolan stuff. Sure there will be some composition issues if you go looking for them, but they are not nearly the issue visually of switching between two widths on a scope screen. And again, if you just have to have the original composition (even though none of us have IMAX theaters) you can lock the aspect in the Lumagen to 16x9 and you now see EXACTLY what was intended with the consumer release. I would do this for titles like Everything everywhere all at once, but I'm find with cropping for almost everything else, niggles aside.


----------



## jrp

acmcool said:


> Is Lumagen planning to fix scalar issues? Seems pretty bad


In head to head fair comparisons the Radiance Pro has won every scaling comparison I know about (both public and private) against _all_ comers. This is because we understand that for consumers the final analysis must be at viewing distance and _that_ is what we optimize for.

A key parameter for the Tektronix image analysis software used by major networks and movie studios for image quality checks is viewing distance for good reason. This Tektronix tool was developed by PhD perception physicists over the past 30 years in conjunction with the studios and network. The Radiance Pro scaling scores much higher than other products using this image analysis software. We improve what can be seen at viewing distance and do not waste gates on what cannot be seen at viewing distance.

Pixel peeping results should be left to the engineers to understand any hardware design issues they need to address and of course is useful for that.


----------



## MDesigns

jrp said:


> In head to head fair comparisons the Radiance Pro has won every scaling comparison I know about (both public and private) against _all_ comers. This is because we understand that for consumers the final analysis must be at viewing distance and _that_ is what we optimize for.
> 
> A key parameter for the Tektronix image analysis software used by major networks and movie studios for image quality checks is viewing distance for good reason. This Tektronix tool was developed by PhD perception physicists over the past 30 years in conjunction with the studios and network. The Radiance Pro scaling scores much higher than other products using this image analysis software. We improve what can be seen at viewing distance and do not waste gates on what cannot be seen at viewing distance.
> 
> Pixel peeping results should be left to the engineers to understand any hardware design issues they need to address and of course is useful for that.


Did you get any report from the Tektronix test to show how it was made and what were the scores from different tests? That would be interesting to read. I read the manual and it is a tool that can be used in many ways and has many different tests to do with different source and target materials the people doing the tests must supply. More info would be nice.


----------



## Chicagobear1

jrp said:


> In head to head fair comparisons the Radiance Pro has won every scaling comparison I know about (both public and private) against _all_ comers. This is because we understand that for consumers the final analysis must be at viewing distance and _that_ is what we optimize for.
> 
> A key parameter for the Tektronix image analysis software used by major networks and movie studios for image quality checks is viewing distance for good reason. This Tektronix tool was developed by PhD perception physicists over the past 30 years in conjunction with the studios and network. The Radiance Pro scaling scores much higher than other products using this image analysis software. We improve what can be seen at viewing distance and do not waste gates on what cannot be seen at viewing distance.
> 
> Pixel peeping results should be left to the engineers to understand any hardware design issues they need to address and of course is useful for that.


An upto date comparison with the Tektronix would be appreciated Jim. Am sure the results are based on information from a few years ago we don't know if that still stands today. No-one is doubting you on this no doubt your findings where factual at the time of the test results. With improvements and firmware updates it would be nice to get an update with the video processors and the lumagen with Tektronix. To see if the lumagen results still stands thanks.


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## bjorg

MDesigns said:


> Do you use Lumagens autoaspect to handle shifting content, or how do you plan to watch the Maverick? So you get full width for 2,35:1 and full height for the 1,9:1 and get the most out of your display? Or maybe just cropping to constant width is the best case, you get 2,35:1 and then it "opens up" to 2.0:1 in the taller portions. That is probably the best. I think I would love a 2.0:1 aspect too


Correct on the latter. I keep the full width of the image and crop a bit off the top and bottom of an 16:9 image. However, if the Lumagen detects an AR < 16:9, I resize it to fit the top and bottom as well. Since it’s an emissive display, I don’t need masking since it achieves perfect black.


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## Karl Maga

acmcool said:


> Is Lumagen planning to fix scalar issues? Seems pretty bad


I noticed you messaging a lot in other Video Processor threads with effusive praise for another product and proclamations of intent to purchase one. Am I misreading your intent here, or has the animus toward Lumagen that's prevalent in those threads been rubbing off on you? I have been wrong on this before, so just asking.


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## acmcool

Karl Maga said:


> I noticed you messaging a lot in other Video Processor threads with effusive praise for another product and proclamations of intent to purchase one. Am I misreading your intent here, or has the animus toward Lumagen that's prevalent in those threads been rubbing off on you?


I am just exploring best value for my $ that’s all.i have been working two jobs to finish to finish my theater.I had bought lumagen with its reputation but seeing issues listed has me wondering. I have lost sleep over this.I still haven’t made my mind where I will land.
I do think lumagen dtm is as good as other option which is what I have stated..


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## Javs

Karl Maga said:


> I noticed you messaging a lot in other Video Processor threads with effusive praise for another product and proclamations of intent to purchase one. Am I misreading your intent here, or has the animus toward Lumagen that's prevalent in those threads been rubbing off on you? I have been wrong on this before, so just asking.


Yet again accusing people of trolling. Stop insinuating there is some narrative when someone posts something you dont agree with, in this case it seems to be an observation based on data that anyone can spend time looking at. Im sure you think I have engaged on some multiple month long campaign to slander Lumagen too, I really dont care if you think that... You cannot pelase everyone.


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## Michael-S

acmcool said:


> I am just exploring best value for my $ that’s all.i have been working two jobs to finish to finish my theater.I had bought lumagen with its reputation but seeing issues listed has me wondering. I have lost sleep over this.I still haven’t made my mind where I will land.
> I do think lumagen dtm is as good as other option which is what I have stated..


So you are in the building phase, does that mean you haven't been watching a projector with a Lumagen in the video chain? I ask because I see a lot of people with projectors and video processors nit picking in the various threads. And while I am not disagreeing that there are imperfections (like barrel distortion from my DCR lens), I find that _for me_ such things don't detract from my enjoyment of my theater.

In the last week I watched both Top Gun movies and my imperfect little setup rocked my theater auditorily and visually. I didn't find cause to note anything detrimental to the raucous entertainment being presented. In fact, I did note that once again, I was pleased to have among my configuration a Lumagen Radiance Pro. It handles aspect ratio, DTM, and the necessary processing for the lens with aplomb.

You mentioned value: I purchased a LRP and a DCR lens for less than the cost of the other good choice. I call that value indeed.


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## audioguy

bjorg said:


> I don’t need masking since it achieves perfect black.


Bragger


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## Karl Maga

Javs said:


> ... Im sure you think I have engaged on some multiple month long campaign to slander Lumagen too, I really dont care if you think that... You cannot pelase everyone.


Uh, no. In fact you are who I was referencing when I said I have been wrong before. Additionally, within the last 10 days are so I posted here that I thought you've done a good job and thanked you for it.


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## FenceMan

Michael-S said:


> You mentioned value: I purchased a LRP and a DCR lens for less than the cost of the other good choice. I call that value indeed.


If you are talking MSRP that is not accurate. The only way that can be accurate is if you got some sort of used deal(s). I've purchased all three at one time or another and know what they cost. Lookup Envy Pro, that is the only way to remotely compare Envy to Lumagen.

When comparing MSRP the cheapest LRP + Panamorph is $3,846.00 more than the Envy Pro.


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## HTTR17

Michael-S said:


> And while I am not disagreeing that there are imperfections (like barrel distortion from my DCR lens), I find that _for me_ such things don't detract from my enjoyment of my theater.


Oh man I am 100% guilty on dcr lens and the chroma abrasion or whatever the term is that makes top and bottom look out of convergence. It drives me nuts way more than it should. If I can get over 100 nits mid laser without I'm thinking of dropping it. 

My only grip with lumagen is I wish I could pick a dtm setting and stick with it. I have a feeling this is more hdr mastering seems like the wild west. 

Some of the issues they are working on no, way I could see them from my seat. But I appreciate people finding them and lumagen fixing/looking into them.


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## Michael-S

HTTR17 said:


> Oh man I am 100% guilty on dcr lens and the chroma abrasion or whatever the term is that makes top and bottom look out of convergence. It drives me nuts way more than it should. If I can get over 100 nits mid laser without I'm thinking of dropping it.
> 
> My only grip with lumagen is I wish I could pick a dtm setting and stick with it. I have a feeling this is more hdr mastering seems like the wild west.
> 
> Some of the issues they are working on no, way I could see them from my seat. But I appreciate people finding them and lumagen fixing/looking into them.


Interesting that you are considering eliminating the lens. If it bothers you, it bothers you. Whenever my NZ9 actually materializes, I want to try it without the lens first because I only purchased the lens for a brighter picture. I am hoping that the increase in lumens obviates the DCR lens.

But the LRP, it is staying. I love the darn thing because all my PJ has to do is display the image; no lens memory shifting, SDR to HDR mode change, etc...


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## bjorg

audioguy said:


> Bragger


LOL. Didn't mean to offend. 😁


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## Javs

Found a good torture test to see pretty huge clipping. 

The sandman ep 2 on Netflix. Watch from the beginning until 1min in. There are two instances it clips, there is a red cloud on an exterior shot, and the biggest There is a cathedral camera starts at the ceiling then pans down slowly showing a really bright light in a window, it clips big time and takes a long time to adjust. Dpad 8 fixes it, 5 almost, 3 and lower is a horror show. This is on my living room LCD now, 33-5-Med-800. 










































Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> Found a good torture test to see pretty huge clipping.
> 
> The sandman ep 2 on Netflix. Watch from the beginning until 1min in. There are two instances it clips, there is a red cloud on an exterior shot, and the biggest There is a cathedral camera starts at the ceiling then pans down slowly showing a really bright light in a window, it clips big time and takes a long time to adjust. Dpad 8 fixes it, 5 almost, 3 and lower is a horror show. This is on my living room LCD now, 33-5-Med-800.
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> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


I watched the first toe or three episodes of this before my trip to Colorado. It reminded me of the 3D movies that just wanted to constantly stick something out of the screen to scream “I’m 3D!!!!!!”
The candles in most rooms look like 10000 lumen LEDs and the taillights on 1930’s cars look like what you’d find on a new Audi. They also just love positioning an actor in front of a super bright light source (even the sun) and just move them in and out of its path. My wife even complained how ridiculous all the lighting was and she never says anything about video. This was all on my OLED in the family room. I was planning on looking at this when I got back, but I knew it could be brutal given the style.


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## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> I watched the first toe or three episodes of this before my trip to Colorado. It reminded me of the 3D movies that just wanted to constantly stick something out of the screen to scream “I’m 3D!!!!!!”
> The candles in most rooms look like 10000 lumen LEDs and the taillights on 1930’s cars look like what you’d find on a new Audi. They also just love positioning an actor in front of a super bright light source (even the sun) and just move them in and out of its path. My wife even complained how ridiculous all the lighting was and she never says anything about video. This was all on my OLED in the family room. I was planning on looking at this when I got back, but I knew it could be brutal given the style.


Yeah I'm not in to the show only saw first ep, it just happened to be the first thing in the queue so I checked it out. The following scenes in London have those crazy candles too. 

But still, it's clipping on a long pan/tilt.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Clark Burk

Technical critique aside....is it worth watching? I have to ask this and it's really from curiosity, do you guys sometimes get so wrapped up in the technical side of shows and movies that you often find yourselves missing some of the entertainment factor? Can you watch a movie and really get into a good story or do you find yourselves often times being pulled away when you notice issues with the picture quality?


----------



## Mikesterz

For watching Maverick I noticed the need for proper aspect for the 1.9 scenes. Example being planes flying on top of each other. I also wouldn’t want black bars for the 2.39 scenes. Best compromise for myself is to just wait a few seconds between aspect changes and hope for a faster switching option update soon.


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## Mikesterz

Clark Burk said:


> Technical critique aside....is it worth watching? I have to ask this and it's really from curiosity, do you guys sometimes get so wrapped up in the technical side of shows and movies that you often find yourselves missing some of the entertainment factor? Can you watch a movie and really get into a good story or do you find yourselves often times being pulled away when you notice issues with the picture quality?


Just like if there’s a lip sync issue, when I notice a picture quality issue it bothers me to the point of pulling me away from the story.


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## FenceMan

I am also wondering if we can get results for the often quoted Tektronix test.

Per the Tektronix manual it is -

_"Based on the concepts of the *human vision system*, the PQA500 provides a suite of repeatable, objective quality measurements that closely correspond with subjective human visual assessment."_

I have found a similar software created by Netflix called VMAF (VMAF: The Journey Continues) which claims -

_"Video Multi-method Assessment Fusion, or VMAF for short, is a video quality metric that combines *human vision modeling* with machine learning."_

So to me they sound like they are looking for very similar things (taking into account actual human vision). I am able to use this tool to compare captured pictures and video using the Netflix YMAF - MSU Video Quality Measurement Tool: Download Page

Lumagen loses every test that I have run pretty badly but we have determined that the various bugs (chroma / pixel shift / issues, missing pixels, etc) make this a completely unfair test because the computer software is going to pickup on all of those bugs even if the human eye cannot. That all said I am very curious how the Lumagen, with all of its bugs, was able to perform so well with the Tektronix software? I would love to be able to review the results and try and understand this better.


----------



## clausdk

audioguy said:


> I just finished watching as well (Lumagen/RS4100/Panamorph). Next time I will lock in 2:35. Lumagen image size changes are far from instantaneous. Quite annoying. Speaking of image, this has to be one of the best 4K/HDR images I have seen. Simply stunning. I will want to watch again, alone. This movie deserves to be played at or near reference and my wife is not a fan of that volume level.
> 
> LOVED the movie. Definitely my kind of entertainment!! Tom Cruise may be a wierd guy but he sure makes good movies (and looks darn good for being 60)!!


Id' prefer insta switching when I needed it also, as far as I know that isnt possible with the Lumagen?


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## Iwanthd

I am a relatively unsophisticated user of a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I've recently noticed that my 2.35-2.40 native content is now bleeding off the sides of the screen about 5 inches on the left side and 2-3 inches on the right. I have enabled the auto aspect ratio function and can see that change depending on content. I wonder if I have inadvertently hit some button on the remote that would cause this? Is there a zoom function that I could have triggered? Software has been updated to most recent. TIA.


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## SJHT

Maybe we should turn this into an owner's thread.....


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## SJHT

Iwanthd said:


> I am a relatively unsophisticated user of a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I've recently noticed that my 2.35-2.40 native content is now bleeding off the sides of the screen about 5 inches on the left side and 2-3 inches on the right. I have enabled the auto aspect ratio function and can see that change depending on content. I wonder if I have inadvertently hit some button on the remote that would cause this? Is there a zoom function that I could have triggered? Software has been updated to most recent. TIA.


Zoom should not expand beyond your defined picture. Does it do this for all content?


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## Iwanthd

SJHT said:


> Zoom should not expand beyond your defined picture. Does it do this for all content?


No. I just notice it on the scope content. 16:9 stuff looks ok. I have a scope screen.
Thanks.


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## HTTR17

Iwanthd said:


> I am a relatively unsophisticated user of a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I've recently noticed that my 2.35-2.40 native content is now bleeding off the sides of the screen about 5 inches on the left side and 2-3 inches on the right. I have enabled the auto aspect ratio function and can see that change depending on content. I wonder if I have inadvertently hit some button on the remote that would cause this? Is there a zoom function that I could have triggered? Software has been updated to most recent. TIA.


Sounds more like the zoom on your projector changed. Or maybe some setting like the jvc has for native or zoom aspect (to use the full chip). Just a thought


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## Iwanthd

HTTR17 said:


> Sounds more like the zoom on your projector changed. Or maybe some setting like the jvc has for native or zoom aspect (to use the full chip). Just a thought


I think you're on to something here. On further investigation, 16:9 is also projecting significantly off the top of the screen. I have a JVC RS2000, which setting should I adjust?


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## HTTR17

Assuming it's just the jvc zoom.

Set the lumagen to whatever aspect ratio your screen is on it's remote. I'm guessing it's a scope screen so 2.35 or 2.4. Display a scene then on the jvc remote hit the button close to top right, think it's lens control. Zoom into fit the width of your screen. Then refocus if needed.

For the native/zoom aspect in the jvc I think it depends how you have the lumagen set up to output. Either 4096 or 3862 (whatever it is for 16x9) and that's above my pay grade. If you have lumagen set to output 4096 set aspect to auto I believe


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## Javs

Clark Burk said:


> Technical critique aside....is it worth watching? I have to ask this and it's really from curiosity, do you guys sometimes get so wrapped up in the technical side of shows and movies that you often find yourselves missing some of the entertainment factor? Can you watch a movie and really get into a good story or do you find yourselves often times being pulled away when you notice issues with the picture quality?


If a story is good I don't care about video quality. 

This show, nah it feels a bit 'twilight' teen drama to me, I am having trouble really getting into it.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## dgkula

tigerhonaker said:


> I don't think you missed anything ..........
> I'm simply saying to Craig Peer I'm going to wait until after I see on this Lumagen Thread where multiple AVS members post they have loaded the Newest Lumagen Up-Dates and have No-Issues.
> Unfortunately for me I'm not wise enough to be able to trouble-shoot my Lumagen if anything strange were to take place from a New Up-Date.
> I would have no choice but to have to get a Custom Calibrator to come straighten it out.
> 
> I'm going to wait and hopefully make sure the Newest Software Up-Dates once Jim (Officially Releases Them) that members say all is A-OK.
> 
> Terry


You and me both man. I'm still on * 062721*


----------



## audioguy

Mikesterz said:


> For watching Maverick I noticed the need for proper aspect for the 1.9 scenes. Example being planes flying on top of each other. I also wouldn’t want black bars for the 2.39 scenes. Best compromise for myself is to just wait a few seconds between aspect changes and hope for a faster switching option update soon.


I originally watched with the AR changes - drove me nuts - even if they had been instantaneous. Yesterday, I watched portions with the AR locked to 2:35. I much preferred and was not at all bothered by the small amount of the image cut off at the top and bottom. Each to his own.


----------



## by96

Hoi said:


> For the past couple of months, I've been getting minor audio drops. At first, I thought is was only from Disney/Atmos mkv file films from my HTPC via Kodi. It happened across all of my devices with all of my movies. I swapped out my old trusty passive HDFury HDMI cable from the Audio output to a newer passive Zeskit cable. I haven't an audio drop in 2 weeks.


I am curious if you continued to have success with the Zeskit cable. I bought them prior to acquiring the LRP and am going to be using a 3m Zeskit Maya from the LRP to my AVR. I am also using Zeskit cables of 2m and 3m lengths for my other connections, except the PJ.


----------



## by96

Just go the LRP today. Wrote out a long question about Auto Aspect detection that wasn't working and then it did. Not sure what changed but glad it's working.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Javs pointed out a Chroma shift issue in the Radiance Pro firmware (thanks Javs). We have confirmed this in the lab.
> 
> Patrick is working to resolve the various Chroma shift cases, which vary based on input resolution, output resolution, input format and output format. Patrick says he has some of the cases resolved but other cases still need more work.
> 
> We do not know how long this will take, but we should have the Chroma shift improvements in the next release.


Hi Jim, any update on this chroma shift bug anytime soon?


----------



## Des511

desray2k said:


> Hi Jim, any update on this chroma shift bug anytime soon?


I see that Javs has been sent a beta firmware to test that is to address the chroma bug and other things.


----------



## by96

OzHDHT said:


> One I bought by LHY was a little more reasonable at $655.
> 
> Didn't get it here but this is it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LPS80VA | Jays Audio
> 
> 
> 80Watts Linear Power Supply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jays-audio.com


I am interested in your opinion of the LHY. I found it here:









LPS80VA | TEK AUDIO


JAY'S AUDIO, a high-end CD Transport, and CD Player manufacturer, believes in CD is the best way to reproduce music. JAY'S AUDIO LPS25VA is the BEST SELLER since year 2014! Sold more than 300 units worldwide! Note- these are now under the LHY Audio umbrella. Same products as before. The LPS50VA...




www.tekaudiospecialties.com


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Hi Jim, any update on this chroma shift bug anytime soon?


We have a test release with the Chroma Shift improvements. If testing goes well it could be posted as a new Beta early this next week.


----------



## by96

Regarding output settings, when I set it to 4K24 >>> Auto2, it outputs as 4K60 even though I know the VRRoom EDID (which the LRP Output 2 is connected to) allows for 24Ghz. When I switch output to 4K24 >>> 2160p24, the LRP outputs 24Ghz without problem. Am I missing something about Auto2? I read in the manual that with Auto2, the LRP will output 24Ghz for 24Ghz as long as the display is capable of it.

I just made sure about the VRRoom EDID. I selected the VRRoom to match the PJ's EDID and Auto2 is still resulting in 60Ghz, 

Thank you for any input. I am running the latest Beta FW if that matters.


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

by96 said:


> Regarding output settings, when I set it to 4K24 >>> Auto2, it outputs as 4K60 even though I know the VRRoom EDID (which the LRP Output 2 is connected to) allows for 24Ghz. When I switch output to 4K24 >>> 2160p24, the LRP outputs 24Ghz without problem. Am I missing something about Auto2? I read in the manual that with Auto2, the LRP will output 24Ghz for 24Ghz as long as the display is capable of it.
> 
> I just made sure about the VRRoom EDID. I selected the VRRoom to match the PJ's EDID and Auto2 is still resulting in 60Ghz,
> 
> Thank you for any input. I am running the latest Beta FW if that matters.


See page 9 of this training guide. Use the Menu codes to set, easiest way. Remember to save before powering off.


----------



## by96

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> See page 9 of this training guide. Use the Menu codes to set, easiest way. Remember to save before powering off.


Thanks! I actually had just found this part of the guide. When I entered the code, it came up as 4K24>>>Custom0(Auto4). Is this correct?


----------



## Naiera

I received the 4242 a week ago and my friend had time to swing by for calibration tonight. It did not go well.

After the lengthy but shortest 3D LUT autocal, the picture was as muted as if when trying to display HDR on a non-HDR display. Resetting the CMS brought back the usual brightness. The dE average was almost 6, with 3D LUT calibrations typically averaging 0.7 here, no matter the scaler or the projector.

At this point we were already a little pressed for time, so we decided to do a Lightning 1D autocal thingy instead, which also did not go well. The first attempt got a dE of 1.5 and the second a 2. When we did the same on the now-broken 4442+, it was a respectable 1.0.

I have no idea what's going on and neither does my ISF, THX, etc. certified friend. What's so weird about this is that it worked fine on a different LRP, but not here.

I did do a factory reset before we started and the CMS0 we used was also reset. The only variable I can think of is that there was a beta firmware (062222) on it. I've put the latest stable FW on it now, but it's past midnight and my friend has work in the morning, so he's already had to go. Hopefully we can figure something out rather than just trying over and over in a week or so, because even the shortest 3D LUT takes ages to finish...


----------



## Nima

I have heard that the latest beta has problems with the LUT, especially the 1D part. I have redone my 3D LUT and only uploaded the 3D part to the Lumagen.


----------



## AmigoHD

Nima said:


> I have heard that the latest beta has problems with the LUT, especially the 1D part. I have redone my 3D LUT and only uploaded the 3D part to the Lumagen.


Are you talking about Beta 080722 or the latest non-public one? I have no problems with 1D & 3D LUT on Beta 080722. Spot on.


----------



## KarlKlammer

AmigoHD said:


> Are you talking about Beta 080722 or the latest non-public one? I have no problems with 1D & 3D LUT on Beta 080722. Spot on.


It is happening since the Radiance precision update 042120 for the 1DLUT to 12bit. You won't notice it, when you adjust 100% to D65 manually before creating the LUT.
If you don't, then you will likely be getting this, after uploading the 1D part:
















When you look at about 98% RGB balance, you see the three channels separating.











It is not due to some error in ColourSpace (with LightSpace it is the same). The data ColourSpace uploads are exactly the values, you will find in the Radiance Gamma EQ afterwards.
Uploading the 3D part only causes no issue.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

No issues here with lut and latest beta.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Did you adjust 100% WP to D65 manually before creating the LUT?


----------



## Nima

Have you adjusted High Bright to D65 prior to the LUT? Uploaded to 1D+3D LUT slot? What PJ?


----------



## Javs

Can you make a lumagen lut with Displaycal or do I need to use some commercial software?

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## Nima

ColorSpace is supposed to be the best suited solution for this.


----------



## Javs

Nima said:


> ColorSpace is supposed to be the best suited solution for this.


Is it free? 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## KarlKlammer

You could use LightSpace (open license)








LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software


LightSpace CMS 10.0.0.3039 (02 October 2020) has been released. Release Notes Fixed issue with CR-100 with last used Matrix not being remembered. Updated Klein SDK. Download Link: Downloads




www.avsforum.com


----------



## AmigoHD

@KarlKlammer to be precise: I only used Chromapure Auto-cal yet, but my calibrator will come over to calibrate a 3D LUT for my LRP + JVC RS3100 combo with ColourSpace very soon.
I adjusted 100% white before doing the auto-cal and my calibrator will do the same. I checked the final results manually with HCFR and greyscale + gamma are spot on.


----------



## KarlKlammer

AmigoHD said:


> @KarlKlammer to be precise: I only used Chromapure Auto-cal yet, but my calibrator will come over to calibrate a 3D LUT for my LRP + JVC RS3100 combo with ColourSpace very soon.
> I adjusted 100% white before doing the auto-cal and my calibrator will do the same. I checked the final results manually with HCFR and greyscale + gamma are spot on.


Thank you. When you adjust 100% white before, you won't run into this issue.


----------



## Nima

So 100% white adjustment and the 1D will be fine?


----------



## garyolearysteele

How are JVC NZ owners finding the 422 fix for the periodic flash issue, is it a complete fix?

thanks


----------



## AmigoHD

garyolearysteele said:


> How are JVC NZ owners finding the 422 fix for the periodic flash issue, is it a complete fix?


I did not have a single glitch since my RS3100/NZ8 arrived a week ago. Both JVC and LRP are fixed at 422.


----------



## Ian_Currie

AmigoHD said:


> I did not have a single glitch since my RS3100/NZ8 arrived a week ago. Both JVC and LRP are fixed at 422.


I've NEVER experienced a flash I've always had my NZ9 set to 422.


----------



## Kris Deering

Naiera said:


> I received the 4242 a week ago and my friend had time to swing by for calibration tonight. It did not go well.
> 
> After the lengthy but shortest 3D LUT autocal, the picture was as muted as if when trying to display HDR on a non-HDR display. Resetting the CMS brought back the usual brightness. The dE average was almost 6, with 3D LUT calibrations typically averaging 0.7 here, no matter the scaler or the projector.
> 
> At this point we were already a little pressed for time, so we decided to do a Lightning 1D autocal thingy instead, which also did not go well. The first attempt got a dE of 1.5 and the second a 2. When we did the same on the now-broken 4442+, it was a respectable 1.0.
> 
> I have no idea what's going on and neither does my ISF, THX, etc. certified friend. What's so weird about this is that it worked fine on a different LRP, but not here.
> 
> I did do a factory reset before we started and the CMS0 we used was also reset. The only variable I can think of is that there was a beta firmware (062222) on it. I've put the latest stable FW on it now, but it's past midnight and my friend has work in the morning, so he's already had to go. Hopefully we can figure something out rather than just trying over and over in a week or so, because even the shortest 3D LUT takes ages to finish...


One of the betas had an issue with test patterns, but I am not sure which one it was. The latest beta has this fixed, but you could go back to the last non-beta and test patterns work there fine too. What was the target colorspace? I ask because CalMan will not do a 3D LUT for 2020 color properly. It can for 709 or P3 (if you are using the filter and have near 100% coverage), but not 2020. Colorspace offers LUT support for gamuts larger than the display is capable of though.


----------



## KarlKlammer

Nima said:


> So 100% white adjustment and the 1D will be fine?


Possible workarounds:

adjusting 100% to D65 at the projector/display via gain settings
uploading the 1D part to the projector/display instead, if it supports this (JVC projectors do)
setting the Radiance gamma EQ to factory defaults and only uploading the 3D part to the Radiance


----------



## DigitalAV

KarlKlammer said:


> You could use LightSpace (open license)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software
> 
> 
> LightSpace CMS 10.0.0.3039 (02 October 2020) has been released. Release Notes Fixed issue with CR-100 with last used Matrix not being remembered. Updated Klein SDK. Download Link: Downloads
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Whoa nice, thanks for the heads-up!


----------



## bobof

DigitalAV said:


> Whoa nice, thanks for the heads-up!


That's pretty awesome, my HTP license was a pretty penny back in its day, and still performs well.


----------



## bobof

KarlKlammer said:


> You could use LightSpace (open license)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software
> 
> 
> LightSpace CMS 10.0.0.3039 (02 October 2020) has been released. Release Notes Fixed issue with CR-100 with last used Matrix not being remembered. Updated Klein SDK. Download Link: Downloads
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Very cool, didn't know this!


----------



## by96

I am going to plead ignorance about power adapters, but I know over the years, many people have bought linear power supplies to potentially improve aspects of their LRPs. Out of curiosity, does anyone worry about failures in the added LPS damaging the LRP and then not being covered by the LRP warranty? Is there anything a LPS could do that would damage the LRP? I know Lumagen would cover any repair in the warranty caused but he included power adapter, but I assume they wouldn't for one bought elsewhere. Thanks for any thoughts.

And, a linear power supply that is 12VDC and 8amps (100 watts) is fine to use with the LRP, correct? The amps can be higher than the 5amps of the LRP, right? Just want to make extra sure.


----------



## Naiera

Kris Deering said:


> One of the betas had an issue with test patterns, but I am not sure which one it was. The latest beta has this fixed, but you could go back to the last non-beta and test patterns work there fine too. What was the target colorspace? I ask because CalMan will not do a 3D LUT for 2020 color properly. It can for 709 or P3 (if you are using the filter and have near 100% coverage), but not 2020. Colorspace offers LUT support for gamuts larger than the display is capable of though.


We were trying to do a perfectly normal 709 space calibration. We decided against a DCI-P3 attempt because the extra banding introduced by using Color Space 2 on the projector was just not worth it. We tried doing a BT.2020 when calibrating the first LRP I had, which did not go well  Because of time constraints we had to do a Lightning calibration and ended up with a dE average of 1.0, which I used and enjoyed for the two months or so the 4442+ lived.


----------



## Naiera

Aaron Toulmin said:


> No issues here with lut and latest beta.
> View attachment 3327463


That's a hawt grayscale average. What projector are you using?


----------



## jrp

We are about to post Beta 4.

This has the Chroma Shift fixes. Beta 3 had an issue with Sharpness not engaging and this has been fixed. Plus there are a couple other minor bug fixes.

There might be something else reported in the change log, but these are what I recall.

After this is released, we will then be able to start on the DTM improvements.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> We are about to post Beta 4.
> 
> This has the Chroma Shift fixes. Beta 3 had an issue with Sharpness not engaging and this has been fixed. Plus there are a couple other minor bug fixes.
> 
> There might be something else reported in the change log, but these are what I recall.
> 
> After this is released, we will then be able to start on the DTM improvements.


Im just right now installing the beta pat sent. I will check chroma stuff within the hour and definitely report back here. Good timing.


----------



## jrp

by96 said:


> I am going to plead ignorance about power adapters, but I know over the years, many people have bought linear power supplies to potentially improve aspects of their LRPs. Out of curiosity, does anyone worry about failures in the added LPS damaging the LRP and then not being covered by the LRP warranty? Is there anything a LPS could do that would damage the LRP? I know Lumagen would cover any repair in the warranty caused but he included power adapter, but I assume they wouldn't for one bought elsewhere. Thanks for any thoughts.
> 
> And, a linear power supply that is 12VDC and 8amps (100 watts) is fine to use with the LRP, correct? The amps can be higher than the 5amps of the LRP, right? Just want to make extra sure.


We would cover any issues caused with the included power supply, but we have never had any damage to a Radiance Pro caused by the included power supply without some exigent circumstance like a lightening strike that takes out the power supply and unit.

If you used a different power supply and it caused damage to the Radiance Pro, we would consider this accidental damage, which is not covered. However, we have never had another brand 12 VDC supply cause any damage to a Radiance Pro unit.

For the Radiance Pro a linear 12 VDC supply with at least 5 Amps should work well. A higher Amperage rating is fine.


----------



## Woof Woof

I put in an AC infinity fan cooler on top of the Lumagen but the cooler is larger than the Lumagen itself so I’m not sure its really working as it should. 

Info reports the Lumagen at 59C when I’m watching something and that seems to be constant even with the fan on. When I turn off the video source, it looks like the temps drop to 52-54C. 

Is that normal?


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> We are about to post Beta 4.
> 
> This has the Chroma Shift fixes. Beta 3 had an issue with Sharpness not engaging and this has been fixed. Plus there are a couple other minor bug fixes.
> 
> There might be something else reported in the change log, but these are what I recall.
> 
> After this is released, we will then be able to start on the DTM improvements.


JIm,

Lumagen Beta Pat sent me, Chroma position appears to now be fixed in 422, more importantly its stable with DTM On / Off etc and in BT2020 vs 709 conv which all used to independently move from each other...

Good stuff!

Vans





__





Vans : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





RGB Has some mismatch though which You/Pat can probably fix vs Oppos output, but we know thats a mode thats not advised?. Still, seems like that can be fixed so may aswell take another look.





__





Vans : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





Alien:

422/422





__





Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





DTM Off / On





__





Alien : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





Still very very slight gamma difference (super nearly impossible to detect but its there) vs Oppo's output though I think maybe responsible for not perfect psnr scores.


----------



## DigitalAV

Woof Woof said:


> I put in an AC infinity fan cooler on top of the Lumagen but the cooler is larger than the Lumagen itself so I’m not sure its really working as it should.
> 
> Info reports the Lumagen at 59C when I’m watching something and that seems to be constant even with the fan on. When I turn off the video source, it looks like the temps drop to 52-54C.
> 
> Is that normal?


Those are excellent temps


----------



## alv

Javs - Thanks for finding places to make LRP better

Jim/Patrick - Thanks for actually making it better.

BTW: Not sure how to read the screenshots you posted last night.


----------



## Javs

alv said:


> Javs - Thanks for finding places to make LRP better
> 
> Jim/Patrick - Thanks for actually making it better.
> 
> BTW: Not sure how to read the screenshots you posted last night.


The fact that you basically cant see a difference now is a good thing. I was posting the Oppo output, then what the lumagen does to the image, previously the chroma channel would be moved compared to the Oppos output. Now its all lined up properly.


----------



## Nima

Wonder if the Oppo will ever get fixed?


----------



## Clark Burk

Nima said:


> Wonder if the Oppo will ever get fixed?


Not likely to ever see another firmware for the OPPO. I believe if they were to release a new firmware they would then be liable for a certain amount of time in the event that someone bricks their OPPO doing the update. I’m hopeful they continue to offer repairs for a fee as the lasers in the drives do go bad after a lot of use.


----------



## audioguy

Nima said:


> Wonder if the Oppo will ever get fixed


I think the only part of Oppo (The Company) that functions is repair. Given they folded up shop, I would not hold my breath that they will "fix" what you would like them to.


----------



## Naiera

Nima said:


> Wonder if the Oppo will ever get fixed?


What needs fixing?


----------



## thrang

Naiera said:


> What needs fixing?


Perhaps people’s expectation of perfection?


----------



## bosler.bruce

Lumgen + Kaleidescape ... Forgive me if already covered but I haven't read through all 17,157 posts yet 

Found a Stratos S player at a good price so bought it. I found in the Lumagen manual the discussion about 24Hz vs 60Hz for menus, and I see there is a setting for Co-Star which I don't think applies to my set up.

is there anything else I should be concerned about?


----------



## AmigoHD

*Beta 081722- Posted 082922 Beta 4 of the Pipeline Enhancement update. 
Update*


----------



## Naiera

thrang said:


> Perhaps people’s expectation of perfection?


Uh, I figured Nima was referring to something specific.


----------



## jrp

bosler.bruce said:


> Lumagen + Kaleidescape ... Forgive me if already covered but I haven't read through all 17,157 posts yet
> 
> Found a Stratos S player at a good price so bought it. I found in the Lumagen manual the discussion about 24Hz vs 60Hz for menus, and I see there is a setting for Co-Star which I don't think applies to my set up.
> 
> is there anything else I should be concerned about?


If you have a 2.35 or 2.40 screen I recommend setting the Strato OSD at 2.35 in the LAN interface Setup menu.

You can choose OSD at 24 or 60 Hertz as you prefer. At 60 hertz the animation is smoother. I use 24 Hertz for the OSD so it matches most movie content for faster switching.

If you are using the Radiance Pro auto aspect. you should also set the Strato to "Report Content Type Metadata." Then in the Pro auto aspect setup enable the "Use Graphics Flag" as 2.35. The Strato then sends the "Graphics Flag" when its OSD is displayed, and the Pro uses this to know to select 2.35 as the source aspect.


----------



## Nima

I can go from Beta Update 2 to 4 and skip 3 right?


----------



## woofer

Nima said:


> I can go from Beta Update 2 to 4 and skip 3 right?


Yes.


----------



## bjorg

Installed the latest beta and all looks good!


----------



## Ash Sharma

bjorg said:


> Installed the latest beta and all looks good!


 You are a brave Man... 
I wait for full release and then upgrade the firmware.
BTW - you have the best theater ever... especially the view outside..


----------



## bjorg

Ash Sharma said:


> You are a brave Man...
> I wait for full release and then upgrade the firmware.
> BTW - you have the best theater ever... especially the view outside..


Well, I knew I could always go back. I wanted to lend a hand to validate the release after so many others did already. I figured that if I did encounter any issues, now would be better than later to report them.

And thanks for the kind words!


----------



## OzHDHT

Ash Sharma said:


> You are a brave Man...
> I wait for full release and then upgrade the firmware.
> BTW - you have the best theater ever... especially the view outside..


I've tested every Alpha and Beta of this release. For me this no different to using betas on anything from iPhone to Pinball machine to PC, etc. I do all that with all types of CE devices with no qualms and can't recall the last time I've run into a major headache on any device.


----------



## alv

seems like the fixes in this release made the picture crisper or is that me seeing what I want? Others?


----------



## Naiera

Fixing the chroma shift bug is supposed to do exactly that.


----------



## Woof Woof

I got an A95K installed today and promptly started watching the scene in Endgame that I’ve seen a million times. It made me appreciate the Lumagen even more. Granted, there is no way the 760ES can create the kind of specular highlights that the A95K can. In the fires around Thanos as he sits in the clearing while waiting for the 3 Avengers to confront him, there is more intensity on the A95K. The reds are just more vivid and brighter. But I still got the same impact when Thor called down the lightning as he summoned Mjolnir and Stormbreaker just before they walked down. 

But it was the overall tone of the scene. When I first got the Lumagen, I found the overall scene felt brighter. The 760ES on its own projected an overall darker image. It was the same with a BenQ W2700. The Lumagen’s presentation was a lot closer to the Dolby Vision presentation on the A95K.


----------



## Ash Sharma

One thing that gets less Atta Boys is about the CONVENIENCE of Lumagen due to the availability of so many inputs and separate video and audio outputs.
My Radiance Pro 4446 is almost out of inputs .... and it is great to split the audio to the Trinnov 32 and the Video 18GBPS to the Projector.
Just when I thought I had enough boxes (Have Kaleidescape Premier Encore system 2 Inputs, Oppo #3, AppleTV #4, TIVO 4K #5, Roku#6) 6 as mentioned - I was looking for a way to have quick access for my 208 3D movies (which I very seldom watch but plan to watch more often when my new super bright projector shows up) - I got a very nice service in California where I shipped my movies (Discs) to put them on a USB Hard Drive using makemkv only to find out that Zidoo would be the best way to play them (NO 3D movie capability on the Kaleidescape).
So I added a Zidoo on the Lumagen taking up the 7th input...
Only one input is left now... I had planned to use it for a XBOX so after that 8 input .... no more inputs left (I think I am done adding boxes and I most likely will not add the X BOX and its nice to have one open Input) unless I move from a 4446 to a 5348 which has WHOPPING 10 INPUTS WOW.
I care about quality of picture a lot like most here but convenience is important also important to me....


----------



## Kris Deering

Ash Sharma said:


> One thing that gets less Atta Boys is about the CONVENIENCE of Lumagen due to the availability of so many inputs and separate video and audio outputs.
> My Radiance Pro 4446 is almost out of inputs .... and it is great to split the audio to the Trinnov 32 and the Video 18GBPS to the Projector.
> Just when I thought I had enough boxes (Have Kaleidescape Premier Encore system 2 Inputs, Oppo #3, AppleTV #4, TIVO 4K #5, Roku#6) 6 as mentioned - I was looking for a way to have quick access for my 208 3D movies (which I very seldom watch but plan to watch more often when my new super bright projector shows up) - I got a very nice service in California where I shipped my movies (Discs) to put them on a USB Hard Drive using makemkv only to find out that Zidoo would be the best way to play them (NO 3D movie capability on the Kaleidescape).
> So I added a Zidoo on the Lumagen taking up the 7th input...
> Only one input is left now... I had planned to use it for a XBOX so after that 8 input .... no more inputs left (I think I am done adding boxes and I most likely will not add the X BOX and its nice to have one open Input) unless I move from a 4446 to a 5348 which has WHOPPING 10 INPUTS WOW.
> I care about quality of picture a lot like most here but convenience is important also important to me....


Any reason you are using an Apple TV and a Roku? Seems redundant since Roku doesn't have anything that AppleTV already has and AppleTV is more consistent in its offerings for Atmos/HDR than the Roku. That could free up a slot. You could also use the HDMI input on the back of the Oppo if push came to shove for your 3D input. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## audioguy

I've asked this question to Lumagen Support with no response so thought I would try here to see if I can get an answer.

If I want to lock the image to a specific Aspect Ratio (think Maverick), do I need to do anything besides select 2:35 on the remote? I recall that some time ago, I had to turn on some parameter to make it stay at the AR. If that is still the case, how do I get to that using the remote?

Thanks.


----------



## dormie1360

audioguy said:


> If I want to lock the image to a specific Aspect Ratio (think Maverick), do I need to do anything besides select 2:35 on the remote?
> 
> Thanks.


That's all I did. Stayed in 2:35 for the entire movie.


----------



## tigerhonaker

audioguy said:


> I've asked this question to Lumagen Support with no response so thought I would try here to see if I can get an answer.
> 
> If I want to lock the image to a specific Aspect Ratio (think Maverick), do I need to do anything besides select 2:35 on the remote? I recall that some time ago, I had to turn on some parameter to make it stay at the AR. If that is still the case, how do I get to that using the remote?
> 
> Thanks.


Chuck,

Sadly I do-not recall the steps but here is the answer to your question I think.
Jim, walked me through setting up my Lumagen for all the Old Movies that are in 4:3 aspect ratio to change to 16:9 Ratio.
The very last step was ..............
*The New Settings had to be (Saved).*
If they were not saved as soon as you turn off the system and turn it back on all those New-Settings go right back to where they were !!!

Terry


----------



## wjchan

audioguy said:


> I've asked this question to Lumagen Support with no response so thought I would try here to see if I can get an answer.
> 
> If I want to lock the image to a specific Aspect Ratio (think Maverick), do I need to do anything besides select 2:35 on the remote? I recall that some time ago, I had to turn on some parameter to make it stay at the AR. If that is still the case, how do I get to that using the remote?
> 
> Thanks.


The Sticky Aspect Override has to be set correctly. The sentence has double-negative so I'm not even going to state categorically what it should be set to...

Section 7 of the manual



> Since the image-based auto aspect analyzes the video, it is possible in rare cases that one aspect ratio might be mistaken for another. This typically only occurs with very poor-quality video originally shot, and or edited, in the analog domain. If the user manually selects an aspect-ratio, by default, that aspect-ratio will be used until the next aspect ratio change is detected by the Radiance Pro. If enabled, the Sticky Aspect Override feature will disable the image-based aspect-ratio detection and the selected aspect will be used until the input is reselected, the Input button is pressed, or a memory (e.g. MEMA) button is pressed.


----------



## fatherom

wjchan said:


> The sentence has double-negative so I'm not even going to state categorically what it should be set to...


What double-negative are you referring to? I don't see that in the original question, or your quote from the manual.


----------



## fatherom

Ash Sharma said:


> I was looking for a way to have quick access for my 208 3D movies (which I very seldom watch but plan to watch more often when my new super bright projector shows up) - I got a very nice service in California where I shipped my movies (Discs) to put them on a USB Hard Drive using makemkv only to find out that Zidoo would be the best way to play them (NO 3D movie capability on the Kaleidescape)


I think this is the most stunning aspect (to me) of what you posted. There's a service that rips discs and puts them on a hard drive for you? How do they get around the legal ramifications of that? 

Honestly, though, ripping ones own discs is SUPER easy, and MakeMKV is free.


----------



## wjchan

fatherom said:


> What double-negative are you referring to? I don't see that in the original question, or your quote from the manual.


Disable and Override. And the "enabled" didn't make it easier.

Perhaps naming the feature "Sticky Aspect Ratio" is simpler.


----------



## fatherom

wjchan said:


> Disable and Override. And the "enabled" didn't make it easier.


That's not a double negative at all...all they're saying is a feature called "Sticky Aspect Override" will disable aspect ratio detection. Makes perfect sense, just uses two different terms. Not a double negative in the slightest.


----------



## audioguy

So do I need to turn off Auto Aspect Detection (Sticky Aspect Overide) if I want the manually selected AR to not change?


----------



## wjchan

fatherom said:


> That's not a double negative at all...all they're saying is a feature called "Sticky Aspect Override" will disable aspect ratio detection. Makes perfect sense, just uses two different terms. Not a double negative in the slightest.


It reminds me of a French application that has a popup dialog "Do you not want to quit the application? Yes/No"


----------



## fatherom

wjchan said:


> It reminds me of a French application that has a popup dialog "Do you not want to quit the application? Yes/No"


THAT is a double negative. The lumagen stuff is definitely not.


----------



## wjchan

fatherom said:


> THAT is a double negative. The lumagen stuff is definitely not.


For a non-technical person who's trying to parse the meaning of the whole sentence, the word "override" denotes something negative. People who are used to reading technical documentations can compartmentalize the "Sticky Aspect Ratio Override" as a term and not attribute anything else to it.

I wouldn't want to create a menu that reads "Nuclear Reactor Shutdown Override: Enable/Disable". It's not intuitive.


----------



## fatherom

wjchan said:


> For a non-technical person who's trying to parse the meaning of the whole sentence, the word "override" denotes something negative. People who are used to reading technical documentations can compartmentalize the "Sticky Aspect Ratio Override" as a term and not attribute anything else to it.
> 
> I wouldn't want to create a menu that reads "Nuclear Reactor Shutdown Override: Enable/Disable". It's not intuitive.


Your nuclear example (btw, NOTHING the lumagen does is potentially damaging) adds a SECOND term that has a "direction" to it: the word "shutdown". The lumagen term ONLY contains the word "override". So your example is spurious.


----------



## wjchan

audioguy said:


> So do I need to turn off Auto Aspect Detection (Sticky Aspect Overide) if I want the manually selected AR to not change?


It has to be set to Enabled for the AR to stick till input reselected/memory button pressed etc.

See, it's not intuitive.


----------



## fatherom

wjchan said:


> It has to be set to Enabled for the AR to stick till input reselected/memory button pressed etc.
> 
> See, it's not intuitive.


You're enabling the "Sticky Aspect Override"...it makes perfect sense to me.

I'll stop cluttering the thread...I just don't think this terminology is confusing at all.


----------



## Ash Sharma

fatherom said:


> I think this is the most stunning aspect (to me) of what you posted. There's a service that rips discs and puts them on a hard drive for you? How do they get around the legal ramifications of that?
> 
> Honestly, though, ripping ones own discs is SUPER easy, and MakeMKV is free.


I can use my time in better ways and I don't have Disc burners - PC etc....


----------



## fatherom

Ash Sharma said:


> I can use my time in better ways and I don't have Disc burners - PC etc....


I get your point, but you only need a blu-ray disc reader (not a burner)


----------



## Ash Sharma

Kris Deering said:


> Any reason you are using an Apple TV and a Roku? Seems redundant since Roku doesn't have anything that AppleTV already has and AppleTV is more consistent in its offerings for Atmos/HDR than the Roku. That could free up a slot. You could also use the HDMI input on the back of the Oppo if push came to shove for your 3D input. Just thinking out loud.


Roku is just for redundancy... I have used it very less - but sometimes I want to make sure - say if the audio stream in say a netflix show is ATMOS or Plain Dolby Surround... I can compare.
On very rare occasions I have seen that the Roku has a better audio Stream.
Good idea on the Oppo inout - I never thought of that.
I think I am pretty much done with inputs needed... but thanks for the post.


----------



## Ash Sharma

fatherom said:


> I get your point, but you only need a blu-ray disc reader (not a burner)


Which I don't have either..
But thanks for advising - once I get these 3D discs back and now that I have Zidoo - in the future I will buy new 3D movies and need to add them (I use Kaleidescape for everything) will follow your advice.
The person giving me the service to back up my 3D discs is using a External BD Drive - and part of the deal is he will ship the Disc drive to me along with my discs and backup on a hard drive....
Off course I will pay for the hardware....as per the 'project'
BTW - I am loving the Zidoo... In fact I bought two of them as I have two places to watch 3D Movies and one Zidoo will work as a NAS for the house including for the Zidoo in my Equipment Rack so I don't have to doodle with my Equipment Rack when I add movies in the future... very cool.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> So do I need to turn off Auto Aspect Detection (Sticky Aspect Overide) if I want the manually selected AR to not change?


No. If you are using Auto aspect detection and have STICKY OVERIDE ON in the auto aspect settings for the input, all you do is select the aspect you want it to lock on once the content starts. It will stay in that aspect until it detects an HDMI restart (stopping the movie, changing the source, etc) and then will go back to auto aspect on its own. Easy peasy


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> No. If you are using Auto aspect detection and have STICKY OVERIDE ON in the auto aspect settings for the input, all you do is select the aspect you want it to lock on once the content starts. It will stay in that aspect until it detects an HDMI restart (stopping the movie, changing the source, etc) and then will go back to auto aspect on its own. Easy peasy


Thank you. Easy peasy indeed!!


----------



## dlinsley

Kris Deering said:


> Any reason you are using an Apple TV and a Roku? Seems redundant since Roku doesn't have anything that AppleTV already has and AppleTV is more consistent in its offerings for Atmos/HDR than the Roku. That could free up a slot. You could also use the HDMI input on the back of the Oppo if push came to shove for your 3D input. Just thinking out loud.


I'm not who this was directed towards, but I still use both for two reasons:

1. Roku YouTube app supports full 4k (maybe this has changed?)
2. Roku YouTubeTV app supports 5.1. It looks like this is coming in the next version of tvOS.


----------



## audioguy

dlinsley said:


> I'm not who this was directed towards, but I still use both for two reasons:
> 
> 1. Roku YouTube app supports full 4k (maybe this has changed?)
> 2. Roku YouTubeTV app supports 5.1. It looks like this is coming in the next version of tvOS.


Guess I will need to get a Roku since YouTube TV now supports 5.1 but my AppleTV does not. Accoriding to the article I just read, there is no official date for ATV to support 5.1. What is the least expensive version of the Roku products that will support 4K/HDR and 5.1?


----------



## thrang

audioguy said:


> Guess I will need to get a Roku since YouTube TV now supports 5.1 but my AppleTV does not. Accoriding to the article I just read, there is no official date for ATV to support 5.1. What is the least expensive version of the Roku products that will support 4K/HDR and 5.1?


Apple TV supports 5.1 along with Atmos and stereo only options. Don't know the article you are reading, perhaps it is saying the _tvOS version_ of YouTube TV doesn't yet support it?


----------



## Kris Deering

thrang said:


> Apple TV supports 5.1 along with Atmos and stereo only options. Don't know the article you are reading, perhaps it is saying the _tvOS version_ of YouTube TV doesn't yet support it?


It is the YouTube app on AppleTV that doesn't support, not the AppleTV itself. I thought I heard that changed recently, but I don't use YT often so not sure.


----------



## audioguy

thrang said:


> Apple TV supports 5.1 along with Atmos and stereo only options. Don't know the article you are reading, perhaps it is saying the _tvOS version_ of YouTube TV doesn't yet support it?


The issue is specifically the YouTube TV app on the ATV. We use another ATV in our theater and we know it supports 5.1 and Atmos for non-YouTube TV content. And at least the one I have in our family room does not seem to support it for YouTube TV as the Marantz rerceiver only shows L&R channels as input. After some more research, at least some of the ATVs support it, but mine may be too old. Our ATV in the family room Model Number says it was introduced in 2017 [First Generation} and the newer model [Second Generation] was introduced in 2021. I assume the one in our theater is also the original 4K Model !! Why the older hardware can't support is beyond me.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

audioguy said:


> The issue is specifically the YouTube TV app on the ATV. We use another ATV in our theater and we know it supports 5.1 and Atmos for non-YouTube TV content. And at least the one I have in our family room does not seem to support it for YouTube TV as the Marantz rerceiver only shows L&R channels as input. After some more research, at least some of the ATVs support it, but mine may be too old. Our ATV in the family room Model Number says it was introduced in 2017 [First Generation} and the newer model [Second Generation] was introduced in 2021. I assume the one in our theater is also the original 4K Model !! Why the older hardware can't support is beyond me.


That’s apple for you.


----------



## thrang

Aaron Toulmin said:


> That’s apple for you.


Apple TV 4k, Apple TV 4th gen, Apple TV 3rd gen support 5.1

So, what?


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Any reason you are using an Apple TV and a Roku? Seems redundant since Roku doesn't have anything that AppleTV already has and AppleTV is more consistent in its offerings for Atmos/HDR than the Roku. That could free up a slot. You could also use the HDMI input on the back of the Oppo if push came to shove for your 3D input. Just thinking out loud.


I have both Apple TV and Roku. You need both if you want 4k hdr, atmos, and auto frame rate match for all the popular apps/channels. The Apple TV has it for most apps except for Plex, YouTube and a couple others and Roku doesn’t have it for Netflix, Hulu, Apple TV+, and a few others.


----------



## Jue Liang

audioguy said:


> The issue is specifically the YouTube TV app on the ATV. We use another ATV in our theater and we know it supports 5.1 and Atmos for non-YouTube TV content. And at least the one I have in our family room does not seem to support it for YouTube TV as the Marantz rerceiver only shows L&R channels as input. After some more research, at least some of the ATVs support it, but mine may be too old. Our ATV in the family room Model Number says it was introduced in 2017 [First Generation} and the newer model [Second Generation] was introduced in 2021. I assume the one in our theater is also the original 4K Model !! Why the older hardware can't support is beyond me.


Not only the sound format, the 2017 Apple TV 4K doesn’t support HDR and some of the 4k videos on YouTube as well. According to my understanding, Apple does not support Google's VP9 codec originally. When it does, it needs lots of power to process it. The 2017 Apple TV's A10 chip simply does not have that much processing power to support everything in YouTube.


----------



## desray2k

Guys, do u experience black crush on SDR content?


----------



## dlinsley

audioguy said:


> The issue is specifically the YouTube TV app on the ATV. We use another ATV in our theater and we know it supports 5.1 and Atmos for non-YouTube TV content. And at least the one I have in our family room does not seem to support it for YouTube TV as the Marantz rerceiver only shows L&R channels as input. After some more research, at least some of the ATVs support it, but mine may be too old. Our ATV in the family room Model Number says it was introduced in 2017 [First Generation} and the newer model [Second Generation] was introduced in 2021. I assume the one in our theater is also the original 4K Model !! Why the older hardware can't support is beyond me.


Discussion in the YTTV thread starts here (only lasts a few posts): Youtube TV streaming service


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> I have both Apple TV and Roku. You need both if you want 4k hdr, atmos, and auto frame rate match for all the popular apps/channels. The Apple TV has it for most apps except for Plex, YouTube and a couple others and Roku doesn’t have it for Netflix, Hulu, Apple TV+, and a few others.


I use Plex extensively on all my ATVs. If there's a playback issue with either sound or video, I use Infuse instead. There isn't anything else that worries me my HT setup otherwise, having previously relied on HTPC for many years. I definitely don't watch enough YouTube content in my HT (or anywhere else) to be worried about the lack of audio capabilty.


----------



## SJHT

thrang said:


> Apple TV 4k, Apple TV 4th gen, Apple TV 3rd gen support 5.1
> 
> So, what?


It’s the YouTube TV app on the Apple TV specifically. Not the device or other apps….


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Looking for some advice re LRP 5244 and Trinnov processor.

New Trinnov Altitude 16 was installed today and encounter an issue with what seems to be the reported output resolution. In the quick and dirty diagram below the *RED* arrows show my normal signal path, with all source devices plugged into the LRP, Output 1 sending audio to the Trinnov and Output 2 sending video to projector. This setup was fine using my previous Anthem AVM70, but with the Trinnov in place, the LRP *only ever reports 1080p* output. This essentially destroys not only resolution but colour volume is cut in half (image is very muted). Tested this with the Trinnov powered off and LRP see 4K, as soon as I power on the Trinnov, another HDMI handshake initiates and resolution drops back to 1080p.

In an attempt to work around this, I re-routed the connection as per the *BLUE* signal path with Output 2 on the LRP sending both audio & video to the Trinnov and then outputting from HDMI 2 on the Trinnov back to the projector. In this setup the LRP see full 4K resolution.

What is going on here? Why do I need to send audio & video to the Trinnov for this to work? Is there a setting on the LRP or Trinnov I am missing?


----------



## Naiera

Ash Sharma said:


> One thing that gets less Atta Boys is about the CONVENIENCE of Lumagen due to the availability of so many inputs and separate video and audio outputs.
> My Radiance Pro 4446 is almost out of inputs .... and it is great to split the audio to the Trinnov 32 and the Video 18GBPS to the Projector.
> Just when I thought I had enough boxes (Have Kaleidescape Premier Encore system 2 Inputs, Oppo #3, AppleTV #4, TIVO 4K #5, Roku#6) 6 as mentioned - I was looking for a way to have quick access for my 208 3D movies (which I very seldom watch but plan to watch more often when my new super bright projector shows up) - I got a very nice service in California where I shipped my movies (Discs) to put them on a USB Hard Drive using makemkv only to find out that Zidoo would be the best way to play them (NO 3D movie capability on the Kaleidescape).
> So I added a Zidoo on the Lumagen taking up the 7th input...
> Only one input is left now... I had planned to use it for a XBOX so after that 8 input .... no more inputs left (I think I am done adding boxes and I most likely will not add the X BOX and its nice to have one open Input) unless I move from a 4446 to a 5348 which has WHOPPING 10 INPUTS WOW.
> I care about quality of picture a lot like most here but convenience is important also important to me....


You could always add an HDMI switch if/when you do run out of inputs. It may seem counterintuitive to add a $30 device to a $5,000 scaler, but it can work just fine. I have only four "native" inputs, but the cheapo HDMI switch I bought takes me to a total of five 18G inputs and two 9Gs. It might take a little searching to actually find one that does 18Gbps with auto-switching that works as intended, but I managed to do it  I have my consoles and the Mac Mini (Roon server) connected to it, while the ATV, Oppo and UHD player are connected directly to the LRP.


----------



## scrowe

xPLAYRZx said:


> Looking for some advice re LRP 5244 and Trinnov processor.
> 
> New Trinnov Altitude 16 was installed today and encounter an issue with what seems to be the reported output resolution. In the quick and dirty diagram below the *RED* arrows show my normal signal path, with all source devices plugged into the LRP, Output 1 sending audio to the Trinnov and Output 2 sending video to projector. This setup was fine using my previous Anthem AVM70, but with the Trinnov in place, the LRP *only ever reports 1080p* output. This essentially destroys not only resolution but colour volume is cut in half (image is very muted). Tested this with the Trinnov powered off and LRP see 4K, as soon as I power on the Trinnov, another HDMI handshake initiates and resolution drops back to 1080p.
> 
> In an attempt to work around this, I re-routed the connection as per the *BLUE* signal path with Output 2 on the LRP sending both audio & video to the Trinnov and then outputting from HDMI 2 on the Trinnov back to the projector. In this setup the LRP see full 4K resolution.
> 
> What is going on here? Why do I need to send audio & video to the Trinnov for this to work? Is there a setting on the LRP or Trinnov I am missing?
> 
> View attachment 3328782


What are your Output Mode settings?

If Auto2 - it should automatically set the optimal output resolution by the EDID of the device connected to Output 2.
If Auto1 - it will be setting the output resolution automatically by the EDID of the device connected to Output 1. If so, this might explain why it is reading something different from the Trinnov versus your Anthem.
Anything else, it might be worth just doing a HDMI reset, which if I am recalling correctly means unplugging your Output Devices, and disconnecting the Lumagen from the mains, waiting an amount of time, repowering the Lumagen and replugging the HDMI canles to the outputs.Note: I would try and search for the correct procedure, I'm sure its been mentioned before in this thread.


----------



## EVH78

desray2k said:


> Guys, do u experience black crush on SDR content?


Which firmware are you using?


----------



## bosler.bruce

Kris Deering said:


> Any reason you are using an Apple TV and a Roku? Seems redundant since Roku doesn't have anything that AppleTV already has


Apple TV does not offer surround (stereo only) on some of the apps. For me that includes YouTube TV so I added a ROKU so I could get surround while watching TV. . I understand that may change at some point but until Apple enables surround I have both.

Roku has about 30,000 apps. Most are junk and I don't know what they would be, but I'm sure some people use some that aren't available on Apple TV

Roku does not have Apple Music with Atmos so need Apple TV too


----------



## thrang

bosler.bruce said:


> Apple TV does not offer surround (stereo only) on some of the apps. For me that includes YouTube TV so I added a ROKU so I could get surround while watching TV. . I understand that may change at some point but until Apple enables surround I have both.
> 
> Roku has about 30,000 apps. Most are junk and I don't know what they would be, but I'm sure some people use some that aren't available on Apple TV
> 
> Roku does not have Apple Music with Atmos so need Apple TV too


It’s not up to Apple - the API’s are there - it’s up to the app developer to leverage them


----------



## bosler.bruce

thrang said:


> It’s not up to Apple - the API’s are there - it’s up to the app developer to leverage them


No end user really cares what needs to be done to make it work, just whether or not it works. It doesn't work ergo I also have a Roku


----------



## by96

Are "Letterbox Bottom" and "Letterbox Top" described in the manual? I couldn't find the options described there. 

When I set up the LRP a few days ago, I used Vertical Shift set for each ratio to move the active screen to the bottom of the 16:9 screen, as I can do top masking. I then read through some posts in June in this thread about the Letterbox option. I turned off the Vertical Shift settings and set the Global section to Letterbox Bottom and it worked. It was so much easier to do than setting each ratio individually in Vertical Shift!!

Kudos to LRP for the Letterbox Top and Bottom options! Auto Aspect detection with the ability to move the active screen to the bottom was a major factor in my purchase of the LRP. The Letterbox just makes it so much easier.


----------



## thrang

thrang said:


> It’s not up to Apple - the API’s are there - it’s up to the app developer to leverage them


Agreed but your post is word poorly in that regard. People should petition the app developers to add the features.


----------



## jrp

xPLAYRZx said:


> Looking for some advice re LRP 5244 and Trinnov processor.
> 
> New Trinnov Altitude 16 was installed today and encounter an issue with what seems to be the reported output resolution. In the quick and dirty diagram below the *RED* arrows show my normal signal path, with all source devices plugged into the LRP, Output 1 sending audio to the Trinnov and Output 2 sending video to projector. This setup was fine using my previous Anthem AVM70, but with the Trinnov in place, the LRP *only ever reports 1080p* output. This essentially destroys not only resolution but colour volume is cut in half (image is very muted). Tested this with the Trinnov powered off and LRP see 4K, as soon as I power on the Trinnov, another HDMI handshake initiates and resolution drops back to 1080p.
> 
> In an attempt to work around this, I re-routed the connection as per the *BLUE* signal path with Output 2 on the LRP sending both audio & video to the Trinnov and then outputting from HDMI 2 on the Trinnov back to the projector. In this setup the LRP see full 4K resolution.
> 
> What is going on here? Why do I need to send audio & video to the Trinnov for this to work? Is there a setting on the LRP or Trinnov I am missing?
> 
> View attachment 3328782


Sounds like some strange EDID thing. You can manually program the output rate:

MENU 0873 for 9 GHz max, or MENU 0874 for 18 GHz max.

Then to add 24 Hertz output and set output width enter MENU 0872 for 3840x2160, or MENU 0877 for 4096 by 2160.

Save your changes.

This should get you 4k output direct to the projector either to the Trinnov from output 2, or to the projector from output 2.

==== 

We posted 081822 on the website. It has 5244 specific updates that correct output mode reporting. After you update to it, I recommend the following:

For the Trinnov, you can enable 5244 Output 1 for both video and audio to get the HDMI clock into the Trinnov design sweet spot. This is done in the Output->Output Setup->2D and then press OK. Then select all for input, memory and input-mode. The right arrow under ENABLE, and under the digit 1. Up arrow until it says B for both audio and video, press OK to accept and then EXIT to activate. Then do a Save.

I recommend using Input 7 on the Trinnov with either the older card (important), or new input card (shorter traces, which is not a bad thing).

I also recommend 3 meter HDMI passive cables from sources and to the Trinnov. I call this the Goldilocks solution. The HDMI "porridge" is just right as to HDMI cable attenuation.


----------



## jrp

We posted Beta 081822 - Posted 090122 Beta 4 fixup. Bugfix for auto aspect treatment of 4:3 pillar box video format (old tv shows often in this format). 

This release also has Radiance Pro 5244 specific updates that correct output mode reporting.


----------



## jrp

by96 said:


> Are "Letterbox Bottom" and "Letterbox Top" described in the manual? I couldn't find the options described there.
> 
> When I set up the LRP a few days ago, I used Vertical Shift set for each ratio to move the active screen to the bottom of the 16:9 screen, as I can do top masking. I then read through some posts in June in this thread about the Letterbox option. I turned off the Vertical Shift settings and set the Global section to Letterbox Bottom and it worked. It was so much easier to do than setting each ratio individually in Vertical Shift!!
> 
> Kudos to LRP for the Letterbox Top and Bottom options! Auto Aspect detection with the ability to move the active screen to the bottom was a major factor in my purchase of the LRP. The Letterbox just makes it so much easier.


Sorry, these are not in the manual yet.

Letter box bottom (for top down masking) and Letter Box Top (for bottom up masking) are the best way to do setup for these situations. The simplest way to change this is select the Letterbox mode in the Global->Video->Features menu. Select the appropriate Letter Box mode, and then press OK. This is an action command and not a variable that gets set. It walks the menu and changes all appropriate settings.

You can then change individual inputs or input memories as needed.

Save your changes.


----------



## by96

jrp said:


> Sorry, these are not in the manual yet.
> 
> Letter box bottom (for top down masking) and Letter Box Top (for bottom up masking) are the best way to do setup for these situations. The simplest way to change this is select the Letterbox mode in the Global->Video->Features menu. Select the appropriate Letter Box mode, and then press OK. This is an action command and not a variable that gets set. It walks the menu and changes all appropriate settings.
> 
> You can then change individuation inputs or inputs memories as needed.
> 
> Save your changes.


Thanks! After DTM, this is my favorite LRP feature!


----------



## Mikesterz

OzHDHT said:


> I use Plex extensively on all my ATVs. If there's a playback issue with either sound or video, I use Infuse instead. There isn't anything else that worries me my HT setup otherwise, having previously relied on HTPC for many years. I definitely don't watch enough YouTube content in my HT (or anywhere else) to be worried about the lack of audio capabilty.


Plex on Apple TV I think you’re missing out on auto frame rate match. You may be experiencing judder. Some people don’t notice it or are not bothered by it.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Big thanks to @jrp and @scrowe for your advice. I will give this a try and report back with the results.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> Plex on Apple TV I think you’re missing out on auto frame rate match. You may be experiencing judder. Some people don’t notice it or are not bothered by it.


Doesn't seem like it to me and I notice quite quickly when rate match is off on the ATV, it really messes with things. I watch Plex/Infuse with both projectors as well as all my TV's. There also isn't much of any Plex content I watch that's in higher frame rates, that tends to be on streaming apps.

All the concern over Youtube content is classic. I seriously can't get that worked up about not seeing Youtube content with HDR (unless it was some demo material maybe). But it's also available on my other devices like the PS5 and HTPC. It's also the last source I watch in my HT for anything and occasionally people will watch music clips, random content, etc on the living room TV through soundbar. Also, Google does seem to say here ATV does indeed support 5.1 audio : Watch YouTube on TV with 5.1 surround sound - YouTube Help


----------



## desray2k

EVH78 said:


> Which firmware are you using?


Never mind...its the movie itself that is the issue. All good here.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

jrp said:


> We posted 081822 on the website. It has 5244 specific updates that correct output mode reporting. After you update to it, I recommend the following:
> 
> For the Trinnov, you can enable 5244 Output 1 for both video and audio to get the HDMI clock into the Trinnov design sweet spot. This is done in the Output->Output Setup->2D and then press OK. Then select all for input, memory and input-mode. The right arrow under ENABLE, and under the digit 1. Up arrow until it says B for both audio and video, press OK to accept and then EXIT to activate. Then do a Save.
> 
> I recommend using Input 7 on the Trinnov with either the older card (important), or new input card (shorter traces, which is not a bad thing).
> 
> I also recommend 3 meter HDMI passive cables from sources and to the Trinnov. I call this the Goldilocks solution. The HDMI "porridge" is just right as to HDMI cable attenuation


So follow up from this. After making the suggested changes above I was still only seeing 1080p (now on both outputs), so there was now video available on Output 1.










Toggling the CMS mode from Auto 2 to Auto 1 and back seemed get this to update, although perhaps a restart may have done the same thing. Point being, after making and saving the changes, there was no initial improvement to the resolution.



















This looks to have solved the issue, so thank you again @jrp for your guidance.

One last question regarding this change, and this is mostly me having a moment so apologies in advance... when playing 1080p (or any non 4K) content, is the expected behavior for the LRP to always upscale or should this pass through to the display.

So in the example below, is 1080p in > 2160p out expected or should this be 1080p in > 1080p out ??


----------



## bobof

xPLAYRZx said:


> One last question regarding this change, and this is mostly me having a moment so apologies in advance... when playing 1080p (or any non 4K) content, is the expected behavior for the LRP to always upscale or should this pass through to the display.
> 
> So in the example below, is 1080p in > 2160p out expected or should this be 1080p in > 1080p out ??
> 
> View attachment 3329216


I'm pretty sure the default behaviour is to upscale. You can make it not upscale (or even downscale) in the Output menu screen. There is a lot of flexibility, with different inputs, memories, resolutions and refresh rates all being able to trigger different behaviours.


----------



## Jue Liang

Just found another random bug.
When the Lumagen is set to output 4096*2160 with 3840*2160 input, asp in=1.78, det=1.78, out=2.35, and zoom=25%, it makes a bunch of vertical green lines at the right side edge.


----------



## jevansoh

I'm in the process of transferring all of my home theater, networking, and home automation equipment to three 42u equipment racks that are housed in a dedicated equipment room off to the side of my dedicated theater. I have a Lumagen 4446+, a StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MKII, and a JVC RS540 projector along with 8 source devices that will all be connected together using HDMI cables.

I've planned to connect all of my sources directly to the Lumagen and use the Audio Only HDMI output to connect to the StormAudio and the 18gbps main HDMI output of the Lumagen to my JVC projector.

I want to have tidy cable management and am using a few different techniques and devices for cable management in my equipment racks, but when it comes to HDMI cables, and specifically cable length, I have a question.

The Lumagen will be mounted in a central location in one of the 42u racks where most all my sources would only require a 1.5' to 3' HDMI cable. Using cables just long enough would make the cable management much easier and make the cables look much better than using cables much longer than they need to be.

My question is about ideal HDMI cable length. I've owned several Oppo Blu-Ray players and in the Official Oppo Threads, I've seen numerous posts mention that the ideal HDMI cable length is 6' because cables and the devices they plug into are EQ'd for the 6' length. These posts suggest that you should never use a cable "less" than 6' even when you could get by with using a much shorter cable.

The posts are mostly from one or two people (although I believe these folks absolutely know what they are talking about and are very educated and well respected in those threads) and the posts are mostly now several years old.

I'd love to be able to use several 1' - 3' HDMI cables for the reasons I mentioned above, but I keep thinking of those posts that suggest it is unwise to do so.

Does the 6' recommended HDMI cable length still matter today? Will I gain any quality or performance by sticking to 6' cables between my sources and the Lumagen? Or does it no longer matter and can I safely use much shorter cables without any quality loss or other issues?

Here is a link to the cables I've been using. They are inexpensive yet they are 8k certified and have great reviews. I'd be curious to know if anyone else here is using (or has tried) these cables and your thoughts on them.









Amazon.com: Zeskit Maya 8K 48Gbps Certified Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable 6.5ft, 4K120 8K60 144Hz eARC HDR HDCP 2.2 2.3 Compatible with Dolby Vision Apple TV 4K Roku Sony LG Samsung Xbox Series X RTX 3080 PS4 PS5 : Electronics


Amazon.com: Zeskit Maya 8K 48Gbps Certified Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable 6.5ft, 4K120 8K60 144Hz eARC HDR HDCP 2.2 2.3 Compatible with Dolby Vision Apple TV 4K Roku Sony LG Samsung Xbox Series X RTX 3080 PS4 PS5 : Electronics



www.amazon.com





Thanks in advance for your thoughts and input on this subject.


----------



## by96

jevansoh said:


> I'm in the process of transferring all of my home theater, networking, and home automation equipment to three 42u equipment racks that are housed in a dedicated equipment room off to the side of my dedicated theater. I have a Lumagen 4446+, a StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MKII, and a JVC RS540 projector along with 8 source devices that will all be connected together using HDMI cables.
> 
> I've planned to connect all of my sources directly to the Lumagen and use the Audio Only HDMI output to connect to the StormAudio and the 18gbps main HDMI output of the Lumagen to my JVC projector.
> 
> I want to have tidy cable management and am using a few different techniques and devices for cable management in my equipment racks, but when it comes to HDMI cables, and specifically cable length, I have a question.
> 
> The Lumagen will be mounted in a central location in one of the 42u racks where most all my sources would only require a 1.5' to 3' HDMI cable. Using cables just long enough would make the cable management much easier and make the cables look much better than using cables much longer than they need to be.
> 
> My question is about ideal HDMI cable length. I've owned several Oppo Blu-Ray players and in the Official Oppo Threads, I've seen numerous posts mention that the ideal HDMI cable length is 6' because cables and the devices they plug into are EQ'd for the 6' length. These posts suggest that you should never use a cable "less" than 6' even when you could get by with using a much shorter cable.
> 
> The posts are mostly from one or two people (although I believe these folks absolutely know what they are talking about and are very educated and well respected in those threads) and the posts are mostly now several years old.
> 
> I'd love to be able to use several 1' - 3' HDMI cables for the reasons I mentioned above, but I keep thinking of those posts that suggest it is unwise to do so.
> 
> Does the 6' recommended HDMI cable length still matter today? Will I gain any quality or performance by sticking to 6' cables between my sources and the Lumagen? Or does it no longer matter and can I safely use much shorter cables without any quality loss or other issues?
> 
> Here is a link to the cables I've been using. They are inexpensive yet they are 8k certified and have great reviews. I'd be curious to know if anyone else here is using (or has tried) these cables and your thoughts on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Zeskit Maya 8K 48Gbps Certified Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable 6.5ft, 4K120 8K60 144Hz eARC HDR HDCP 2.2 2.3 Compatible with Dolby Vision Apple TV 4K Roku Sony LG Samsung Xbox Series X RTX 3080 PS4 PS5 : Electronics
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Zeskit Maya 8K 48Gbps Certified Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable 6.5ft, 4K120 8K60 144Hz eARC HDR HDCP 2.2 2.3 Compatible with Dolby Vision Apple TV 4K Roku Sony LG Samsung Xbox Series X RTX 3080 PS4 PS5 : Electronics
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts and input on this subject.


I am new to Lumagen, but I am using the Zeskit Maya cables, but stuck with only 3m and 4m 2m and 3m ones to be safe. I used to have some of the smaller ones, but replaced them after reading through this thread. I do not think the recommendation for longer cables have changed over time, if anything, it has gone from 3m up to 4m 2ms to 3ms as the recommended length. Again, I am using some of both and so far, no significant issue.

EDIT - I meant to say 2m and 3m, not 3m and 4m.


----------



## jevansoh

Interesting. Thanks for your input. 

I have only ever seen recommendations for 6' HDMI cables (I'm not a frequent reader of this thread) and by using the Zeskit 6.5' cables, I thought I already may not be using the perfect length since they're over 6', but I haven't heard recommendations of using even longer cables before. 

I'll try to search this thread and see what I find. I must admit, I definitely don't want to go with even longer cables, as only "needing" 1.5' or 3' cables for my rack would make cable management a nightmare for 9' or 12' HDMI cables.

I'm curious as to other folks thoughts on this, too.


----------



## by96

jevansoh said:


> Interesting. Thanks for your input.
> 
> I have only ever seen recommendations for 6' HDMI cables (I'm not a frequent reader of this thread) and by using the Zeskit 6.5' cables, I thought I already may not be using the perfect length since they're over 6', but I haven't heard recommendations of using even longer cables before.
> 
> I'll try to search this thread and see what I find. I must admit, I definitely don't want to go with even longer cables, as only "needing" 1.5' or 3' cables for my rack would make cable management a nightmare for 9' or 12' HDMI cables.
> 
> I'm curious as to other folks thoughts on this, too.


Here are some posts by Jim:

*








New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Just curious what the read/write lifetime is for the Xilinx FPGA and if you are at liberty to say which one is it? https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug116.pdf Figure at least one million hours... About 114 years and that's probably with TJ=125 deg C.




www.avsforum.com













New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I have owned NX5 for more than six months, I have compared NX5 directly with Sony VW790 alone and with Lumagen. I would like to state that Lumagen outperforms JVCs DTM solution. Lumagen is better in judging the highlights and specles, Lumagen never show signs on dim and dull picture, Lumagen...




www.avsforum.com




*


----------



## jevansoh

So now I have two more questions.

I will be using an 18ghz output from the Lumagen going to a JVC RS540 projector for now, but will soon be upgrading that projector to a JVC NZ8.

I need a 65' - 75' HDMI cable to go from the Lumagen to the projector and there is no way to shorten this length, unfortunately.

My first question is should I replace my Zeskit 8k 48ghz 6.5' HDMI cables with 18ghz 3 meter cables for best quality with least likely issues?

My second question is what exactly should I use (that is affordable if at all possible as I am already over budget) for the 65' - 75' HDMI cable for video from the Lumagen to the JVC projector (soon to be upgraded to the NZ8)?

Thanks in advance for everyone's input.


----------



## arsenalfc89

Does Genlock work with 24fps->60fps, 60fps->24fps or only the same fps ie 24fps->24fps?


----------



## by96

deleted


----------



## bearcat2002

Over the last few betas my JVC will give me this “Out of Range” message on the screen when intermittently changing between menus on the ATV. This happens and the screen is blank. The only way to get a picture back is turn off the RP and turn it back on. Anyone else have this happen?











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

What JVC do you have?


----------



## bearcat2002

RS3000


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dlinsley

bearcat2002 said:


> Over the last few betas my JVC will give me this “Out of Range” message on the screen when intermittently changing between menus on the ATV. This happens and the screen is blank. The only way to get a picture back is turn off the RP and turn it back on. Anyone else have this happen?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





bearcat2002 said:


> RS3000


I also have an RS3000, and experienced similar with Beta 3 but this was fixed with the Beta 3 Fixup for me and I've not experienced it with 4 either. Does Alt+Prev also not fix it?

Did you email Support?


----------



## bearcat2002

I will try the Alt-Prev next time it happens. I'm pretty sure I can make it do it. I also did email support so they are aware. Thank you.


----------



## alv

For those of you using Roku because appletv didn't do Utube in 5.1, got fixed today.









YouTube TV adds 5.1 audio for Apple TV hardware | AppleInsider


In a Tuesday update, Google's YouTube TV app has added 5.1 audio to not just the Apple TV, but also Fire TV hardware.




appleinsider.com


----------



## Naiera

Now they just need to fix the horrendous implementation of Match Framerate in that app.


----------



## dlinsley

Naiera said:


> Now they just need to fix the horrendous implementation of Match Framerate in that app.


+1. I just leave my UI set at 60Hz, otherwise YTTV stutters like crazy trying to fit the frames into 24Hz!

The 5.1 AC-3 is working well on my 2018 ATV4k though


----------



## raullopez1234

Will it be possible to add an upgrade for hdr to be tone mapped to sdr . Hdr in general is very dark compared to an sdr image as we are all aware of . The Panasonic ub820 has this feature but i think the lumagen with all it's processing power can perform this task much better. There are occasions when I watch the Blu-ray version instead of the 4k hdr version because it's much brighter and dynamic than the hdr version. With the great upscaling of the lumagen the Blu-ray rivals the 4k in resolution. Last night I had to watch Rambo first blood in Blu-ray because the 4k disc was much to dark.


----------



## audioguy

raullopez1234 said:


> Will it be possible to add an upgrade for hdr to be tone mapped to sdr . Hdr in general is very dark compared to an sdr image as we are all aware of . The Panasonic ub820 has this feature but i think the lumagen with all it's processing power can perform this task much better. There are occasions when I watch the Blu-ray version instead of the 4k hdr version because it's much brighter and dynamic than the hdr version. With the great upscaling of the lumagen the Blu-ray rivals the 4k in resolution. Last night I had to watch Rambo first blood in Blu-ray because the 4k disc was much to dark.


I'm no expert on these matters nor do I know what projector you are using, but something may be amiss in the video calibration area. There are close to zero times I would ever trade the image of HDR for SDR. Can HDR be darker than SDR? Maybe but the trade off is definitely worth it.


----------



## raullopez1234

audioguy said:


> I'm no expert on these matters nor do I know what projector you are using, but something may be amiss in the video calibration area. There are close to zero times I would ever trade the image of HDR for SDR. Can HDR be darker than SDR? Maybe but the trade off is definitely worth it.


I have an jvc x750 and I prefer to watch on low lamp than on high lamp because of the increase in audible noise and the extra heat it dissipates.


----------



## Jue Liang

raullopez1234 said:


> Will it be possible to add an upgrade for hdr to be tone mapped to sdr . Hdr in general is very dark compared to an sdr image as we are all aware of . The Panasonic ub820 has this feature but i think the lumagen with all it's processing power can perform this task much better. There are occasions when I watch the Blu-ray version instead of the 4k hdr version because it's much brighter and dynamic than the hdr version. With the great upscaling of the lumagen the Blu-ray rivals the 4k in resolution. Last night I had to watch Rambo first blood in Blu-ray because the 4k disc was much to dark.


You bought a Lumagen but never realized that it has one of the best HDR tone mapping (including HDR to SDR conversion) solutions? It’s light years ahead of what Panasonic can do. It’s like you bought a Ferrari but never realize that it can run faster than 60 mile/h. 




audioguy said:


> I'm no expert on these matters nor do I know what projector you are using, but something may be amiss in the video calibration area. There are close to zero times I would ever trade the image of HDR for SDR. Can HDR be darker than SDR? Maybe but the trade off is definitely worth it.


It’s not necessarily darker. It depends on your tone mapping target. The higher the targeting nits is, the darker the image would be.

this following frame was tone mapped to 300 nits and has a APL ~8.5%









the same frame tone mapped to the standard SDR level 100 nits has ~15% APL.


----------



## fatherom

raullopez1234 said:


> Will it be possible to add an upgrade for hdr to be tone mapped to sdr . Hdr in general is very dark compared to an sdr image as we are all aware of . The Panasonic ub820 has this feature but i think the lumagen with all it's processing power can perform this task much better. There are occasions when I watch the Blu-ray version instead of the 4k hdr version because it's much brighter and dynamic than the hdr version. With the great upscaling of the lumagen the Blu-ray rivals the 4k in resolution. Last night I had to watch Rambo first blood in Blu-ray because the 4k disc was much to dark.





audioguy said:


> I'm no expert on these matters nor do I know what projector you are using, but something may be amiss in the video calibration area. There are close to zero times I would ever trade the image of HDR for SDR. Can HDR be darker than SDR? Maybe but the trade off is definitely worth it.


If you're using Lumagen DTM, you're taking in HDR and outputting SDR.


----------



## raullopez1234

fatherom said:


> If you're using Lumagen DTM, you're taking in HDR and outputting SDR.


It would help if lumagen had an hdr setting where it tone mapped to 100nits then I would only adjust my iris on the projector to suit my desired brightness.


----------



## fatherom

raullopez1234 said:


> It would help if lumagen had an hdr setting where it tone mapped to 100nits then I would only adjust my iris on the projector to suit my desired brightness.


I would highly recommend you read up on Lumagen's DTM...the manual, and posts here...what you're asking is EXACTLY what the lumagen does (based on your settings) when doing Dynamic Tone Mapping.


----------



## raullopez1234

fatherom said:


> I would highly recommend you read up on Lumagen's DTM...the manual, and posts here...what you're asking is EXACTLY what the lumagen does (based on your settings) when doing Dynamic Tone Mapping.


I will do that. I'm going to have to print out the manual which I haven't done yet. Thanks


----------



## Naiera

Calibration with the new (to me) 4242 finally done. Whew. The very weird readings we got last time would seem to have been a result of that faulty beta it came with. Wish I'd been smart enough to go back to the last stable one for our first calibration session with this 4242 LRP 😅 

Unfortunately, it does seem to be the fact that the 270ES now gets a 4K signal that creates the extra banding (compared to 1080p from a 2123 or some such Lumagen). I figured it was Color Space 2, which we used for the calibration for the 4442 LRP, that caused the banding to be noticably worse than with 1080p.

We couldn't seem to squeeze better than a 1.0 on the Color Checker in Calman Home Enthusiast 2017 out of this setup. We would always get a 0.7 on both the Gray Scale and the colors on all previous scalers and projectors. Not that a difference like that matters, compared to the banding issue.


----------



## jbrinegar

raullopez1234 said:


> I will do that. I'm going to have to print out the manual which I haven't done yet. Thanks


You can at least start by using a 5-6x multiplier for your global light. Eg, for 100 nits you can try 500-600. Make sure your projector is using a normal gamma (2.4) and not double TM. 

Youre brightness should be great with those settings


----------



## Naiera

Also, is it possible to remap inputs on the LRP? My 9G inputs are #3 and 4, but I'm used to having my Oppo as #1 and the Apple TV as #2. I thought I had found the function, but trying it out just now, all I got was a black screen until I switched it back. I can get used to the (less frequently used) 18G inputs being 1 and 2, but I'd prefer to have it as it used to be 

I know that it's recommended to have Apple TV 4Ks in 18G inputs, but it works well as it is now, and the switching between 9G inputs is _unbelievably_ fast  My 18G inputs are occupied by the UHD player and my HDMI switch, where I put my consoles and the Mac Mini.


----------



## dlinsley

Naiera said:


> Also, is it possible to remap inputs on the LRP?


In the menu, go to Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Physical In and you can set it to which physical port you want.


----------



## bobof

dlinsley said:


> +1. I just leave my UI set at 60Hz, otherwise YTTV stutters like crazy trying to fit the frames into 24Hz!


That just sounds like it's not implemented at all.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> Calibration with the new (to me) 4242 finally done. Whew. The very weird readings we got last time would seem to have been a result of that faulty beta it came with. Wish I'd been smart enough to go back to the last stable one for our first calibration session with this 4242 LRP 😅
> 
> Unfortunately, it does seem to be the fact that the 270ES now gets a 4K signal that creates the extra banding (compared to 1080p from a 2123 or some such Lumagen). I figured it was Color Space 2, which we used for the calibration for the 4442 LRP, that caused the banding to be noticably worse than with 1080p.
> 
> We couldn't seem to squeeze better than a 1.0 on the Color Checker in Calman Home Enthusiast 2017 out of this setup. We would always get a 0.7 on both the Gray Scale and the colors on all previous scalers and projectors. Not that a difference like that matters, compared to the banding issue.


Did you try setting the output to 8 bit and letting the Radiance do the dithering? I think that might help (not sure though, never had a Sony).


----------



## feelthesound

Hello Everyone,

I ve a problem:
when I playing video game after… like 30min… the video signal go off, screen become black and comme back all the 5 min…

no problem with movies (uhd hdr 24hz rec2020> 4k dci hdr 24hz )

I have the problem since January and never happens before. Nothing in my configuration was changed.

projector : Sony gtz380
Scaler : Radiance Pro 5348 (last firmware)
Source : nvidia 3090 or PlayStation 5 ( uhd hdr rec2020 60hz> Lumagen 4k dci 60hz hdr P3)

any idea ?

Regards
Thibault


----------



## feelthesound

It’s an intermittent dropouts issue…


----------



## alv

What is the difference between standard and low power wake from standby? Both in terms of power use and waking time.


----------



## femi

Hi, i recently just purchase a Lumagen and I am having issues with Nvidia Shield. I am trying to have Lumagen input mode as 4K60 Rec2020 so i can watch Netflix and Amazon Prime content in HDR. 

What i can't figure out is, I can set the Shield to 4K60 Rec.709 and that will set Lumagen input mode as 4K60 Rec709 but i can't find the 4k60 Rec2020 option in the shield unless i remove Lumagen from the connection. Also some of the option shield give me if Lumagen is connected are 4k30 Rec2020, 4k25 Rec2020, 4k24 Rec2020 etc...but no 4k60 Rec2020.

I thought maybe if i can manually change Lumagen input mode as 4k60 Rec2020 but i can't figure out how to do that. I can only change the Video Output Selection.

Thanks
Femi


----------



## Naiera

dlinsley said:


> In the menu, go to Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Physical In and you can set it to which physical port you want.


I think that's what I tried already. I'll give it a go again tonight.



bobof said:


> Did you try setting the output to 8 bit and letting the Radiance do the dithering? I think that might help (not sure though, never had a Sony).


We did a simple 2160p 709 calibration this time. Nothing fancy attempted.


----------



## feelthesound

Nobody? Thks


----------



## jbrinegar

feelthesound said:


> Nobody? Thks


If the dropout is occurring only with 4k 60, my guess would be an HDMI issue. I would look at all hdmi cables in your run and see if this might be the culprit


----------



## feelthesound

I don’t understand because nothing was changed…


----------



## EVH78

feelthesound said:


> I don’t understand because nothing was changed…


HDMI cables loosen up from time to time, make sure they are plugged in all the way. Try another input with default settings and a different cable also if nothing helps.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

femi said:


> Hi, i recently just purchase a Lumagen and I am having issues with Nvidia Shield. I am trying to have Lumagen input mode as 4K60 Rec2020 so i can watch Netflix and Amazon Prime content in HDR.
> 
> What i can't figure out is, I can set the Shield to 4K60 Rec.709 and that will set Lumagen input mode as 4K60 Rec709 but i can't find the 4k60 Rec2020 option in the shield unless i remove Lumagen from the connection. Also some of the option shield give me if Lumagen is connected are 4k30 Rec2020, 4k25 Rec2020, 4k24 Rec2020 etc...but no 4k60 Rec2020.
> 
> I thought maybe if i can manually change Lumagen input mode as 4k60 Rec2020 but i can't figure out how to do that. I can only change the Video Output Selection.
> 
> Thanks
> Femi


You likely need to attach the Shield to an 18G input on the Lumagen. It could also be a cable issue or it could be a setting on the Lumagen
MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>VIDEO EDID ....default is USE GLOBAL but you cold try setting them all to YES...and Video Limit to MAX (18G) If you do not have option of 18G in Video Limit then you are on a 9G input module and that is likely the problem


----------



## femi

Gordon Fraser said:


> You likely need to attach the Shield to an 18G input on the Lumagen. It could also be a cable issue or it could be a setting on the Lumagen
> MENU>INPUT>OPTIONS>HDMI SETUP>VIDEO EDID ....default is USE GLOBAL but you cold try setting them all to YES...and Video Limit to MAX (18G) If you do not have option of 18G in Video Limit then you are on a 9G input module and that is likely the problem


Yeah i only have 9G on my Lumagen. I think that is the issue. @FenceMan point me to this website HDMI 2.1 Bandwidth Calculator and that explain my issue. I plan to order 2 18G really soon. 
Thanks guys for the info. 

Femi


----------



## Naiera

dlinsley said:


> In the menu, go to Input->Options->HDMI Setup->Physical In and you can set it to which physical port you want.


I was trying to do it the wrong way around. Works now, of course. Yay.


----------



## jevansoh

I asked several posts back about an affordable recommendation for a 65'-75' HDMI cable but didn't get a response so I just thought I'd ask one more time since I need to purchase one ASAP.

I'll be going from an 18ghz output on a 4446+ to a JVC RS540 for a few months, then the RS540 will be switched out to a JVC NZ8 which I'm sure I'll have for several years.

Through my research, I've seen a few different cables recommended and have also seen posts that state a fiber optic HDMI cable is a bad choice, but haven't found any recommendations for this length of a cable at a price I can afford right now.

Can someone recommend an affordable option for a length up to 75' please?

Thanks!


----------



## appelz

jevansoh said:


> I asked several posts back about an affordable recommendation for a 65'-75' HDMI cable but didn't get a response so I just thought I'd ask one more time since I need to purchase one ASAP.
> 
> I'll be going from an 18ghz output on a 4446+ to a JVC RS540 for a few months, then the RS540 will be switched out to a JVC NZ8 which I'm sure I'll have for several years.
> 
> Through my research, I've seen a few different cables recommended and have also seen posts that state a fiber optic HDMI cable is a bad choice, but haven't found any recommendations for this length of a cable at a price I can afford right now.
> 
> Can someone recommend an affordable option for a length up to 75' please?
> 
> Thanks!











Amazon.com: RUIPRO 4K HDMI Fiber Optic Cable 80 Feet 18Gbps [email protected] ARC HDR10 Ultra Slim Flexible HDMI 2.0b Cable : Electronics


Buy RUIPRO 4K HDMI Fiber Optic Cable 80 Feet 18Gbps [email protected] ARC HDR10 Ultra Slim Flexible HDMI 2.0b Cable: HDMI Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


----------



## HTRaleigh

I’d recommend calling Jim Peterson unless he chimes in on this thread. He historically recommends Tributaries active HDMI cables as the most reliable option but he has also recommended Ruipro as a cheaper alternative that can work in most cases. I bought a Ruipro 12 meter active 18ghz cable and it has worked fine but I’d be a little leary of an 80’ cable without asking more questions. It might be fine but Jim could provide his point of view for your setup.


----------



## Mikesterz

jevansoh said:


> I asked several posts back about an affordable recommendation for a 65'-75' HDMI cable but didn't get a response so I just thought I'd ask one more time since I need to purchase one ASAP.
> 
> I'll be going from an 18ghz output on a 4446+ to a JVC RS540 for a few months, then the RS540 will be switched out to a JVC NZ8 which I'm sure I'll have for several years.
> 
> Through my research, I've seen a few different cables recommended and have also seen posts that state a fiber optic HDMI cable is a bad choice, but haven't found any recommendations for this length of a cable at a price I can afford right now.
> 
> Can someone recommend an affordable option for a length up to 75' please?
> 
> Thanks!


I’m currently using the certified 2.1 fiber cable from ruipro to the projector and it’s working great, but it’s 50’. The 2.0 cable from the same company didn’t work well at all. I still have audio drop out issues from the Apple TV and nVidia Shield to the lumagen but the PC and Roku have no issues at all.


----------



## appelz

HTRaleigh said:


> I’d recommend calling Jim Peterson unless he chimes in on this thread. He historically recommends Tributaries active HDMI cables as the most reliable option but he has also recommended Ruipro as a cheaper alternative that can work in most cases. I bought a Ruipro 12 meter active 18ghz cable and it has worked fine but I’d be a little leary of an 80’ cable without asking more questions. It might be fine but Jim could provide his point of view for your setup.


I travel with a 20m RuiPro cable, use it most every week, feeding a QuantumData 780E to a Lumagen, sometimes a 4K bluray player if there isn't one in the room, or my AppleTV for testing. Only issues are when TSA crushes it...and I have Amazon ship one to the next job for $70. 

Is it my preferred cable? Nope. Does it fit the OP's request? Yup.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> I’m currently using the certified 2.1 fiber cable from ruipro to the projector and it’s working great, but it’s 50’. The 2.0 cable from the same company didn’t work well at all. I still have audio drop out issues from the Apple TV and nVidia Shield to the lumagen but the PC and Roku have no issues at all.


Is the 2.0 cable a fiber? You should never use fiber between sources and the Lumagen. Only for long runs to a display of over 15’


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Is the 2.0 cable a fiber? You should never use fiber between sources and the Lumagen. Only for long runs to a display of over 15’


The 2.0 that didn’t work was the 50’ fiber to the projector. I replaced it with the certified 2.1 and now it works just fine, no more needing to use alt prev. Two sources are still having audio drop outs though. Using standard 3 meter certified copper hdmi cables for all sources. Two don’t work well out of the 4 that I use. Same exact cables so I’m thinking it’s an input issue.


----------



## abc999

jevansoh said:


> So now I have two more questions.
> 
> I will be using an 18ghz output from the Lumagen going to a JVC RS540 projector for now, but will soon be upgrading that projector to a JVC NZ8.
> 
> I need a 65' - 75' HDMI cable to go from the Lumagen to the projector and there is no way to shorten this length, unfortunately.
> 
> My first question is should I replace my Zeskit 8k 48ghz 6.5' HDMI cables with 18ghz 3 meter cables for best quality with least likely issues?
> 
> My second question is what exactly should I use (that is affordable if at all possible as I am already over budget) for the 65' - 75' HDMI cable for video from the Lumagen to the JVC projector (soon to be upgraded to the NZ8)?
> 
> Thanks in advance for everyone's input.


I would personally use an 18g bullet train fiber cable (25 meters)


----------



## riddle

I have a question or an idea for a game mode. Is it possible to add Lumagen support for 1440p resolution? What I readed 2560x1440p with 120Hz and 4:2:2 have 11,59Gbit/S and this is working great on TV who don't have HDMI 2.1. I think this will be welcomed by all Lumagen gamer users. PS5 and XBOX already supported it.


----------



## Chicagobear1

riddle said:


> I have a question or an idea for a game mode. Is it possible to add Lumagen support for 1440p resolution? What I readed 2560x1440p with 120Hz and 4:2:2 have 11,59Gbit/S and this is working great on TV who don't have HDMI 2.1. I think this will be welcomed by all Lumagen gamer users. PS5 and XBOX already supported it.


I am sure Lumagen has said that's possible in the future maybe they can clarify. Remember depending on which output card you have the 18ghz output outputs 4:2:2 with gaming. 9ghz output only 4:2:0. You can check this by trying to force the HDMI Format Type. The Lumagen will tell you output mode limited to 420: when you try and change output with the 9ghz output card is use for gaming . You can check this with PS5 and XBOX or Playstation Pro. Menu > Output > Styles > HDMI Format > Type


----------



## riddle

Hi, am I wondering if Lumagen Radiance PRO could use metadata from HDR10+ for its mapping. Right now, many companies are starting to support this HDR10+ format more and more.


----------



## SJHT

riddle said:


> Hi, am I wondering if Lumagen Radiance PRO could use metadata from HDR10+ for its mapping. Right now, many companies are starting to support this HDR10+ format more and more.











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hi, is there a way how to add HDR10+ to Lumagen? An old post…. New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series




www.avsforum.com





Think this was the last mention. Sounds like it could handle, but wonder about the benefits.….


----------



## riddle

SJHT said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> Hi, is there a way how to add HDR10+ to Lumagen? An old post…. New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think this was the last mention. Sounds like it could handle, but wonder about the benefits.….


it would provide much more accurate metadata for Lumagen dynamic tonemapping


----------



## bobof

The most obvious benefit is you may not have to speculatively hold back so much pad if you know where the scene is going.


----------



## Kris Deering

riddle said:


> it would provide much more accurate metadata for Lumagen dynamic tonemapping


This only applies to a VERY small segment of content though. HDR10+ is extremely rare when it comes to content and we also don't know how much the HDR10+ group would require for control of the Lumagen (if the JVC is any indication, it would be a lot).


----------



## sandyj

I have a JVC NX9 projector is the consensus to calibrate using the JVC calibration software or use the Lumagen (with calman) or perhaps both together. Usually I just use the JVC Cal but was wondering what others do here.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

The best thing I did was get a professional calibrator in to do projector and LUT for lumagen.


----------



## sandyj

Aaron Toulmin said:


> The best thing I did was get a professional calibrator in to do projector and LUT for lumagen.


I would agree but there are no calibrators around for miles and I don't mind doing it myself to me its part of the hobby. I was mainly interested it what methods others where doing and what they found worked for them. I think the earlier recommation was to do it with the JVC calbration software only and leave the Lumagen for HDR etc.


----------



## Kris Deering

sandyj said:


> I have a JVC NX9 projector is the consensus to calibrate using the JVC calibration software or use the Lumagen (with calman) or perhaps both together. Usually I just use the JVC Cal but was wondering what others do here.


Use the JVC software first to get a better baseline to work from. Then use the Lumagen to fine tune it in.


----------



## sandyj

Kris Deering said:


> Use the JVC software first to get a better baseline to work from. Then use the Lumagen to fine tune it in.


Thanks Kris I will give that a go really appreciate your advice.


----------



## Nexgen76

Kris Deering said:


> This only applies to a VERY small segment of content though. HDR10+ is extremely rare when it comes to content and we also don't know how much the HDR10+ group would require for control of the Lumagen (if the JVC is any indication, it would be a lot).


You mite want to look again Kris that's changed over the past year or so Hulu, Paramount+, & Prime Video steaming offer HDR10+ on top of that more movies are coming with it also.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> This only applies to a VERY small segment of content though. HDR10+ is extremely rare when it comes to content and we also don't know how much the HDR10+ group would require for control of the Lumagen (if the JVC is any indication, it would be a lot).


This might change rapidly though. Apple are adding HDR10+ support to AppleTV it seems.

What do you mean by "how much" - monies? I think it should "only" be $2500 / per annum for Lumagen's class of product, with self testing, unless they were unfortunately classed as a display, which puts them up at $10,000 / per annum plus ATC testing.





License Program - HDR10+


License Program




hdr10plus.org




The ATC testing significantly impacts costs (it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of the cost for JVC was ATC testing and not the annual license...).


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> This might change rapidly though. Apple are adding HDR10+ support to AppleTV it seems.
> 
> What do you mean by "how much" - monies? I think it should "only" be $2500 / per annum for Lumagen's class of product, with self testing, unless they were unfortunately classed as a display, which puts them up at $10,000 / per annum plus ATC testing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> License Program - HDR10+
> 
> 
> License Program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hdr10plus.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATC testing significantly impacts costs (it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of the cost for JVC was ATC testing and not the annual license...).


I wasn't referring to the cost of the license. I was referring to how much control HDR10+ would require of the product. If you use HDR10+ on the new JVC line, nearly every setting is locked out and most of them are in settings I would not want to use. I would hate to see the same thing with Lumagen.


----------



## Naiera

Ew


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Really I don’t think there would be any benefit with HDR10+ just like Dolby vision.

Thats the whole point of the dynamic tone mapping.There is no need for things like this.


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Really I don’t think there would be any benefit with HDR10+ just like Dolby vision.
> 
> Thats the whole point of the dynamic tone mapping.There is no need for things like this.


That's not true. There would definitely be a benefit. The Lumagen can only buffer one frame ahead, so it has to reserve a certain amount of headroom in the off chance that an upcoming frame does a big jump with a highlight or something else that could cause clipping. If it maximized dynamic range for every frame, there is a huge risk of clipping. If you had DV or HDR10+, you would know EXACTLY what was coming up and wouldn't have to guess or reserve headroom. 

JVC has the exact same problem with their new HDR Level AUTO mode. It uses metadata to try and make the best decision on how much padding to use, but there is a lot of content where that metadata is wrong, so they will pad too much or too little.


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> If you had DV or HDR10+, you would know EXACTLY what was coming up and wouldn't have to guess or reserve headroom.


I guess there is no one "perfect solution".


----------



## Clark Burk

Kris Deering said:


> That's not true. There would definitely be a benefit. The Lumagen can only buffer one frame ahead, so it has to reserve a certain amount of headroom in the off chance that an upcoming frame does a big jump with a highlight or something else that could cause clipping. If it maximized dynamic range for every frame, there is a huge risk of clipping. If you had DV or HDR10+, you would know EXACTLY what was coming up and wouldn't have to guess or reserve headroom.
> 
> JVC has the exact same problem with their new HDR Level AUTO mode. It uses metadata to try and make the best decision on how much padding to use, but there is a lot of content where that metadata is wrong, so they will pad too much or too little.


So I’m guessing that the LRP is a bit handicapped compared to the MadVR as far as looking ahead at frames is concerned. How does this affect tone mapping and does this matter for most movies we are viewing?


----------



## Clark Burk

Is Lumagen going to be at Cedia? I didn’t see them on the list of exhibitors.


----------



## Kris Deering

Clark Burk said:


> So I’m guessing that the LRP is a bit handicapped compared to the MadVR as far as looking ahead at frames is concerned. How does this affect tone mapping and does this matter for most movies we are viewing?


MadVR can look more frames ahead, but this creates issues with audio delay. You have to make sure you have an AVR/audio processor that can compensate for the delay. Tone mapping is more similar than different with most movies, but there are edge cases where MadVR does better. Lumagen is currently working on the DTM and hopes to improve their performance with these rare cases.


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> So I’m guessing that the LRP is a bit handicapped compared to the MadVR as far as looking ahead at frames is concerned. How does this affect tone mapping and does this matter for most movies we are viewing?


You'd have to ask Madshi how many frames in hand the Envy actually has for processing HDR at 24p. I understand at least some of the higher latency of the Envy isn't available as a processing benefit - it is due to architectural differences in how the video gets in / out and is synchronized. 

If there is an advantage, maybe Lumagen could do similar. They have enough memory to delay video by a few frames (up to 6-7 frames at 24p I believe).


----------



## J.P

I wonder if Lumagen still can scale/(autoaspect) a DV-signal/input if JVC gets DV-licence in the future ?


----------



## HTRaleigh

Because of design latency the MadVR Envy isn’t an acceptable solution for gamers.


----------



## Dave Harper

fatherom said:


> If you're using Lumagen DTM, you're taking in HDR and outputting SDR.


Not necessarily. You can also set it or any DTM solution to maintain HDR->HDR. Tone mapping doesn’t automatically mean “HDR->SDR”.

There are some displays and projectors that won’t go into their BT2020 color gamut mode unless the incoming signal is some form of HDR. That is one example of why you’d want to maintain HDR. 

I’ve used a Radiance Pro in this manner. And yes you can adjust to compensate for any double tone mapping that may occur in the display. I had and have no issues where this is concerned. 

I’m sure what you’re saying is that is the default setting and condition of the LRP, but I just wanted to clarify for those reading that it doesn’t have to be the case, especially in the situation I mentioned above.


----------



## Dave Harper

J.P said:


> I wonder if Lumagen still can scale/(autoaspect) a DV-signal/input if JVC gets DV-licence in the future ?


I’ve had good success putting an HDFury product in between the source and the LRP so that it sends LLDV Dolby Vision to the input of my MadVR HTPC using VideoProcessor (similar to other scalers like the radiance pro), so I’m sure you can try the same using a Radiance Pro. I do believe others have tried this in the past.


----------



## audioguy

In looking on the Lumagen Website, it shows that the last non-Beta firmware version is over a year old (9-1-21). When is the best case estimate of when the current, long running Beta versions will be fit for us "mortals" to safely install and no longer be a Beta?


----------



## alv

6 frames is about 1/4 seconds. That seems like a lot. Certainly seems like is a problem for having the audio processor before the LRP.


----------



## HTRaleigh

Envy has 200ms delay per their CEO. Yes that is a lot. For movies you can manage for gaming not so much.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> You'd have to ask Madshi how many frames in hand the Envy actually has for processing HDR at 24p. I understand at least some of the higher latency of the Envy isn't available as a processing benefit - it is due to architectural differences in how the video gets in / out and is synchronized.
> 
> If there is an advantage, maybe Lumagen could do similar. They have enough memory to delay video by a few frames (up to 6-7 frames at 24p I believe).


Lumagen cannot buffer additional frames.


----------



## Kris Deering

J.P said:


> I wonder if Lumagen still can scale/(autoaspect) a DV-signal/input if JVC gets DV-licence in the future ?


It won't matter if JVC gets Dolby Vision in the future, Lumagen will not be able to pass that signal if you use it before the Lumagen (neither would MadVR). It would use the base HDR10 layer just like it does now.


----------



## FenceMan

HTRaleigh said:


> Envy has 200ms delay per their CEO. Yes that is a lot. For movies you can manage for gaming not so much.


I will just wade in long enough to point out that the current Envy delay is 220ms so you either need an AVR that does auto lip sync correction or you set all AVR sources to 220ms when you setup and then it is good. This delay is constant and never changes regardless of frame rates or settings.


----------



## bjorg

audioguy said:


> In looking on the Lumagen Website, it shows that the last non-Beta firmware version is over a year old (9-1-21). When is the best case estimate of when the current, long running Beta versions will be fit for us "mortals" to safely install and no longer be a Beta?


I installed the most recent beta a couple of weeks ago. No issues to report. I also haven't heard anyone here bring anything up. This might well become the stable release.

Any reason you don't want to try it out?


----------



## J.P

Kris Deering said:


> It won't matter if JVC gets Dolby Vision in the future, Lumagen will not be able to pass that signal if you use it before the Lumagen (neither would MadVR). It would use the base HDR10 layer just like it does now.


Ok,thanks. But that would also mean potentially all Lumagen/Madvr owners could have a dilemma IF JVC/Sony get the DV-licence and the picture turns out better with the JVC/Sony-DV than the Lumagen-dtm ? (I am not trying to put down the Lumagen processors, only trying to understand)


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen cannot buffer additional frames.


It can. There is a selectable video delay function which is by definition a video buffer. It's covered in the manual; specified in ms, the max delay is equivalent to about 6 or 7 frames at 24p.

What it can't currently do is use that buffer to have a bigger lookahead for DTM. To do that you'd need to re-configure the video pipeline I believe.

You'd need the video delay to be after the first part of DTM frame evaluation but before the DTM is applied. That way you'd have the length of the buffer and the evaluation of further frames to decide what best to do with the frames coming out of the other side of the buffer.

Whether in practice it would be of benefit and worth the effort, is another question.


----------



## Craig Peer

bjorg said:


> I installed the most recent beta a couple of weeks ago. No issues to report. I also haven't heard anyone here bring anything up. This might well become the stable release.
> 
> Any reason you don't want to try it out?


I install beta firmware all the time for the Lumagen. No problems.


----------



## bobof

HTRaleigh said:


> Because of design latency the MadVR Envy isn’t an acceptable solution for gamers.


Yes, but that HW platform has to have the latency, so it's a fact of life there. In a platform that doesn't have to have the latency (like the Lumagen) there is potential that changing the behaviour on a case-by-case basis can offer best of both worlds performance. The Lumagen game mode already does this to an extent, sacrificing the frame accuracy of DTM curve changes for less latency.



alv said:


> 6 frames is about 1/4 seconds. That seems like a lot. Certainly seems like is a problem for having the audio processor before the LRP.


Perhaps liveable with for video (though the lag may make GUIs a bit annoying), and no-one's saying you'd necessarily need all 6 frames. In fact, you wouldn't want to use all 6 frames if you wanted to have constant delay at all framerates as you only have the same number of frames regardless of frame rate. So the optimum is maybe 1 or 2 extra frames at 24p I believe (more at 50/60p), which would allow you to have slightly more lookahead and constant audio delay.


----------



## audioguy

Craig Peer said:


> I install beta firmware all the time for the Lumagen. No problems.


Thanks. I will give it a go. What differences might I see between the 9-1-21release and the current beta? I was watching something last night and was just blown away by the image. Can't imagine it getting much, if any, better!!


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> Thanks. I will give it a go. What differences might I see between the 9-1-21release and the current beta? I was watching something last night and was just blown away by the image. Can't imagine it getting much, if any, better!!


That's a year worth of improvements and bug fixes - best to stay current. Hard to say what improvements you will see, but it won't look worse!


----------



## Naiera

I am also the more cautious type, but I had to update to the latest beta for the chroma fix. What a difference!


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> In looking on the Lumagen Website, it shows that the last non-Beta firmware version is over a year old (9-1-21). When is the best case estimate of when the current, long running Beta versions will be fit for us "mortals" to safely install and no longer be a Beta?


While the Beta releases are now very good I can see why you would want a "production" label on a release. 

The good news is we are very close. Patrick has cleaned up a couple minor issues in the FPGA , and is doing final synthesis as I type this post. Once he has a good FPGA synthesis, and we have completed our internal testing, our current plan is to call the next release the "production candidate." Then once this upcoming release has enough customer feedback we would then switch it to "production" status (assuming the feedback is positive of course).

At this point we have completed all the planned "pipeline enhancement" work. Note: There are a couple areas we might look at again for further improvement. Once we release the production-candidate, we will be switching to desaturation efforts.


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> While the Beta releases are now very good I can see why you would want a "production" label on a release.
> 
> The good news is we are very close. Patrick has cleaned up a couple minor issues in the FPGA , and is doing final synthesis as I type this post. Once he has a good FPGA synthesis, and we have completed our internal testing, our current plan is to call the next release the "production candidate." Then once this upcoming release has enough customer feedback we would then switch it to "production" status (assuming the feedback is positive of course).
> 
> At this point we have completed all the planned "pipeline enhancement" work. Note: There are a couple areas we might look at again for further improvement. Once we release the production-candidate, we will be switching to desaturation efforts.


Jim: Thanks.

Is there any downside to using the latest Beta version? Assuming it doesn't crash or make my current image worse, I would like to go ahead and install it. (Though I find it difficult to imagine how it can improve on the image I already get !!)


----------



## jrp

Update on desaturation improvements:

About 18 months ago we had to make a choice to work on the "pipeline enhancements" or to work on the known desaturation issues. We chose to work on the pipeline enhancements since they improve all content, rather than the desaturation improvements that affect the few scenes needing more desaturation. Based on customer feedback we made the right choice. Since the pipeline enhancements are complete (except as I noted we may do further improvement at a later date), we can now turn our efforts to desaturation.

Last week I "did the math" (shout out to Sheldon Cooper ) for the new Radiance Pro approach to desaturation. The algorithm I developed is "color preserving" which is the studio reference standard for desaturation.

I have completed an Excel spreadsheet with calculations to create the response curves. With this I have been able to evaluate the response curves in graph form. I think they look excellent and give the desaturation I think will work best. There will be at least a single "DeSat" control in the user interface. So the user will be able to select their preference.

Over the weekend I completed, and tested, the C code that creates the desaturation curves in the Radiance Pro. Patrick needs to adapt this code to the Radiance Pro microprocessor, do the scene analysis code, including FPGA gate design, to know how to apply the curves based on the current scene and the current frame (similar to DTM frame analysis). He then needs to design the logic for the FPGA to implement the desaturation pixel processing logic.

I do not have a schedule for when we might have the new desaturation algorithm in a Beta release, but it is likely to be of the order-of-magnitude of about a month. I hope it takes less time, but note that this is not to be construed as a schedule. Other things might come up, or it might take longer than I expect. I am posting this since I wanted to let everyone know that we are looking good to change from the older "desaturate plus allow some clamping" approach to a "desaturate rather than clamp" approach.

Please note that after we actually see the math in action on the screen, there may be more tuning of the desaturation algorithm. So, there may be some changes in releases after the initial "desaturation improvement" release.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> Jim: Thanks.
> 
> Is there any downside to using the latest Beta version? Assuming it doesn't crash or make my current image worse, I would like to go ahead and install it. (Though I find it difficult to imagine how it can improve on the image I already get !!)


The current Beta is getting very positive comments. I see no reason to stay with an older release.

Note that we are perhaps a couple days away from the next Beta release. So if you can wait a couple days, you would be able to update to the next release once available.


----------



## woofer

audioguy said:


> Jim: Thanks.
> 
> Is there any downside to using the latest Beta version? Assuming it doesn't crash or make my current image worse, I would like to go ahead and install it. (Though I find it difficult to imagine how it can improve on the image I already get !!)


Not Jim,

But......You can use the latest Beta and "*IF" *you were to experience any issues...just roll back to the firmware you were previously using.....no risk whatsoever...


----------



## xPLAYRZx

HTRaleigh said:


> Because of design latency the MadVR Envy isn’t an acceptable solution for gamers.


This. Also one of the reasons I chose Lumagen over the Envy.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Also, just general feedback on the lastest Beta release, this has been excellent for me (5244). No issues to report thus far.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Update on desaturation improvements:
> 
> About 18 months ago we had to make a choice to work on the "pipeline enhancements" or to work on the known desaturation issues. We chose to work on the pipeline enhancements since they improve all content, rather than the desaturation improvements that affect the few scenes needing more desaturation. Based on customer feedback we made the right choice. Since the pipeline enhancements are complete (except as I noted we may do further improvement at a later date), we can now turn our efforts to desaturation.
> 
> Last week I "did the math" (shout out to Sheldon Cooper ) for the new Radiance Pro approach to desaturation. The algorithm I developed is "color preserving" which is the studio reference standard for desaturation.
> 
> I have completed an Excel spreadsheet with calculations to create the response curves. With this I have been able to evaluate the response curves in graph form. I think they look excellent and give the desaturation I think will work best. There will be at least a single "DeSat" control in the user interface. So the user will be able to select their preference.
> 
> Over the weekend I completed, and tested, the C code that creates the desaturation curves in the Radiance Pro. Patrick needs to adapt this code to the Radiance Pro microprocessor, do the scene analysis code, including FPGA gate design, to know how to apply the curves based on the current scene and the current frame (similar to DTM frame analysis). He then needs to design the logic for the FPGA to implement the desaturation pixel processing logic.
> 
> I do not have a schedule for when we might have the new desaturation algorithm in a Beta release, but it is likely to be of the order-of-magnitude of about a month. I hope it takes less time, but note that this is not to be construed as a schedule. Other things might come up, or it might take longer than I expect. I am posting this since I wanted to let everyone know that we are looking good to change from the older "desaturate plus allow some clamping" approach to a "desaturate rather than clamp" approach.
> 
> Please note that after we actually see the math in action on the screen, there may be more tuning of the desaturation algorithm. So, there may be some changes in releases after the initial "desaturation improvement" release.


I look forward to testing this.

Please also test it in relation to smaller gamuts even P3, as you go smaller gamut what doesn't clip in BT2020 can clip in P3 etc, it would also be an opportune time to make BT709 not clip either.

Gamut clipping and just 'desat in general' to me are two different things. There are some scenes which LRP clips out of gamut and desat controls dont even have any effect and you need super super high MaxLight settings to fix (to stop clipping), such as:



















The middle shot above is the one with no clipping of any kind.


----------



## by96

Can someone recommend a simple IR receiver to attach to the LRP. I bought one off Amazon but it did not work. It stopped the internal one from working but didn't accept any commands from the remote. 

Thanks.


----------



## Ash Sharma

Javs said:


> I look forward to testing this.
> 
> Please also test it in relation to smaller gamuts even P3, as you go smaller gamut what doesn't clip in BT2020 can clip in P3 etc, it would also be an opportune time to make BT709 not clip either.
> 
> Gamut clipping and just 'desat in general' to me are two different things. There are some scenes which LRP clips out of gamut and desat controls dont even have any effect and you need super super high MaxLight settings to fix (to stop clipping), such as:
> 
> The middle shot above is the one with no clipping of any kind.


DELETED PICTURES JUST TO SHORTEN THE POST

They all look same to me .... LOL... that's what happens when you get Old...


----------



## Clark Burk

I feel your pain but I can definitely see more detail in the bird on the boys chest in the middle picture. In the first shot it looks like overall clipping but the last shot looks like the blue channel is clipping. Javs will probably tell me I got it all wrong but at least I’m seeing the differences this time.


----------



## Javs

Ash Sharma said:


> DELETED PICTURES JUST TO SHORTEN THE POST
> 
> They all look same to me .... LOL... that's what happens when you get Old...


AVS will delete the pics for you when you quote...

IF they look the same to you, then, carry on!


----------



## Javs

Clark Burk said:


> I feel your pain but I can definitely see more detail in the bird on the boys chest in the middle picture. In the first shot it looks like overall clipping but the last shot looks like the blue channel is clipping. Javs will probably tell me I got it all wrong but at least I’m seeing the differences this time.


Yep, the only thing wrong with the shots is all in the belly of the bird. On the waveforms blue was hard clipping. Thats one issue. But then the desat doesnt really fix it (like I said two separate issues), it still clips, and then it just really sharply turns sections of it white and does almost nothing to actually bring the blue channel down.


----------



## arsenalfc89

Javs said:


> Yep, the only thing wrong with the shots is all in the belly of the bird. On the waveforms blue was hard clipping. Thats one issue. But then the desat doesnt really fix it (like I said two separate issues), it still clips, and then it just really sharply turns sections of it white and does almost nothing to actually bring the blue channel down.


What movie and timestamp is this from? Will like to check it out on my setup?


----------



## Javs

arsenalfc89 said:


> What movie and timestamp is this from? Will like to check it out on my setup?


the croods a new age

22.30

and 23.15 is also one


Or just check this..









Croods.mkv


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## arsenalfc89

Javs said:


> the croods a new age
> 
> 22.30
> 
> and 23.15 is also one
> 
> 
> Or just check this..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Croods.mkv
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Thank you.


----------



## Die Zwei

Ash Sharma said:


> They all look same to me .... LOL... that's what happens when you get Old...


Look at the bears (?) belly - in the middle picture, you can see the fur. In the top one it´s just a white/violett area, in the bottom one it´s even worse, just one violett area.
You can´t be that old not so see that.  


Javs said:


> IF they look the same to you, then, carry on!


Oops, just screwed it.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

by96 said:


> Can someone recommend a simple IR receiver to attach to the LRP. I bought one off Amazon but it did not work. It stopped the internal one from working but didn't accept any commands from the remote.
> 
> Thanks.


Can i just check you mean an emitter to attach to front of the unit over the IR receiver? If you mean something to attach to the IR port on back of the device that socket is not for an external IR receiver. It is for a direct feed from a control system with an IR output. That socket is an IR input socket and when a cable is attached to it the front IR receiver is disabled. For that reason alone i suggest it's better to use an IR bud on front than the rear input.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> If there is an advantage, maybe Lumagen could do similar. They have enough memory to delay video by a few frames (up to 6-7 frames at 24p I believe).


Yeah, but please don't as it would destroy the ability of most to adapt lipsyncs to compensate for the much longer delay, which would then become a massive headache. Any added delay to the Lumagen needs to be approached with extreme caution.


----------



## Die Zwei

Gordon Fraser said:


> If you mean something to attach to the IR port on back of the device that socket is not for an external IR receiver. It is for a direct feed from a control system with an IR output.


Both are basically the same. The data traveling through the wire is exactly the same, regardless if it ends up at an IR emitter or goes directly into a device´s IR input port.
A control system is just sending the same IR data packets out than an external remote control would send out via its IR emitter.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Yeah, but please don't as it would destroy the ability of most to adapt lipsyncs to compensate for the much longer delay, which would then become a massive headache. Any added delay to the Lumagen needs to be approached with extreme caution.


I think "don't" is a bit strong... 

If the delay is kept constant across frame rates and kept to a reasonable level it shouldn't be a big problem, but of course such things could (should) be configurable (much like you can currently configure game mode). There was a time when you were lucky to get 120ms of audio delay, but most AVP/R have 150-200ms or more of configurable delay now (plus their intrinsic delay). Admittedly some displays with things like CMD enabled may eat into a good chunk of that (I don't use such features myself), so yes, some caution is required.

I mention the 6-7 frames @ 24p not as a suggestion that it should be 6-7frames, but highlighting the HW capability. For the reason mentioned later in the thread of keeping consistent audio delay across different frame rates, it probably needs to be a lot less frames at 24p, so you have sufficient frames to match the delay at 60p. So maybe a configurable 1-2 extra frames at 24p could give you a useful window to be able to improve HDR processing with, an extra 42-83ms of delay to deal with (the max delay supported is 116ms at 60p), and still be able to achieve consistent audio delay and work within the constraints of AV processors. I could easily accommodate 42 - 83ms of video delay in my system.


----------



## bobof

Die Zwei said:


> Both are basically the same. The data traveling through the wire is exactly the same, regardless if it ends up at an IR emitter or goes directly into a device´s IR input port.
> A control system is just sending the same IR data packets out than an external remote control would send out via its IR emitter.


They're not always the same, some systems use demodulated wired IR instead of modulated - ie the ~38kHz carrier has been removed. Some wired inputs can deal with both, some can't. I've never actually looked into what the Luamgen one does, but it could explain an incompatibility with any given IR receiver.

For the reason Gordon suggests though on the Radiance I think it's better to use an emitter at the front panel, as otherwise you lose IR from a remote control, which is often useful.


----------



## FenceMan

Javs said:


> I look forward to testing this.
> 
> Please also test it in relation to smaller gamuts even P3, as you go smaller gamut what doesn't clip in BT2020 can clip in P3 etc, it would also be an opportune time to make BT709 not clip either.
> 
> Gamut clipping and just 'desat in general' to me are two different things. There are some scenes which LRP clips out of gamut and desat controls dont even have any effect and you need super super high MaxLight settings to fix (to stop clipping), such as:
> 
> View attachment 3333728
> 
> 
> View attachment 3333729
> 
> 
> The middle shot above is the one with no clipping of any kind.


Is the middle picture Envy, HTPC, or something else?


----------



## Ash Sharma

Die Zwei said:


> Look at the bears (?) belly - in the middle picture, you can see the fur. In the top one it´s just a white/violett area, in the bottom one it´s even worse, just one violett area.
> You can´t be that old not so see that.
> 
> Oops, just screwed it.


Mostly, I serve a good Chateaunuef Du Pape with a movie... that and my Old eyes.... and off course 'ignorance is bliss'... all add up.
Do appreciate Jav's for helping to improve Radiance which is already stellar.
And as 'commanded by Javs' I will Carry On..


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> They're not always the same, some systems use demodulated wired IR instead of modulated - ie the ~38kHz carrier has been removed. Some wired inputs can deal with both, some can't. I've never actually looked into what the Luamgen one does, but it could explain an incompatibility with any given IR receiver.


Mh, never came across that. But that might be due to the fact that i try to avoid IR control anyway whereever possible. 


bobof said:


> For the reason Gordon suggests though on the Radiance I think it's better to use an emitter at the front panel, as otherwise you lose IR from a remote control, which is often useful.


Ouch - yes, that makes definitely sense in that case.


----------



## desray2k

Ash Sharma said:


> They all look same to me .... LOL... that's what happens when you get Old...


Ignorance is bliss...just in case you really want to know what to look out for in those pics posted by Jav...look at the fur on the belly of the sloth. The clipping blown up all the details.


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> While the Beta releases are now very good I can see why you would want a "production" label on a release.
> 
> The good news is we are very close. Patrick has cleaned up a couple minor issues in the FPGA , and is doing final synthesis as I type this post. Once he has a good FPGA synthesis, and we have completed our internal testing, our current plan is to call the next release the "production candidate." Then once this upcoming release has enough customer feedback we would then switch it to "production" status (assuming the feedback is positive of course).
> 
> At this point we have completed all the planned "pipeline enhancement" work.
> *Note: There are a couple areas we might look at again for further improvement. *
> Once we release the production-candidate, we will be switching to desaturation efforts.


Jim P,

Thank-You ... Sir for the above post ^^^

I have patience so I'll simply Wait for the {Final} definite release. 

Thanks again,
Terry


----------



## tigerhonaker

> Ash Sharma said:
> They all look same to me .... LOL...
> that's what happens when you get Old...





desray2k said:


> *Ignorance is bliss...*just in case you really want to know what to look out for in those pics posted by Jav...look at the fur on the belly of the sloth.
> The clipping blown up all the details.


desray2k,

I'm like Ash above and I went back and forth looking at the 3 images multiple times.
All I saw was more bright white on the belly in the picture than the others.
The good news for me is I haven't a clue that was what (Clipping) is/was.
I definitely fall into the, *Ignorance is bliss, Camp !!!*
Actually at now 77-years old I don't mind not knowing some things on the images.
I just love watching things in my HT and don't ever actually look for issues especially Small things.
I don't sit right in front of my screen, don't do Still-Images to look for any possible issue/issues.

I think I fall into the camp that just watches whatever the content is as enjoyment. 

Terry


----------



## alv

Ash Sharma said:


> Mostly, I serve a good Chateaunuef Du Pape with a movie


Can I get invited


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> Mostly, I serve a good Chateaunuef Du Pape with a movie... that and my Old eyes.... and off course 'ignorance is bliss'... all add up.
> Do appreciate Jav's for helping to improve Radiance which is already stellar.
> And as 'commanded by Javs' I will Carry On..


I served a good Chateauneuf Du Pape at Burning Man a week and a half ago. And in my theater on occasion!


----------



## Ash Sharma

I had to 1 Up You Craig...
My visit to the Holy Ground..
Look how rocky the soil is....


----------



## Die Zwei

tigerhonaker said:


> I just love watching things in my HT and don't ever actually look for issues especially Small things.


Well, it´s a small thing (sloth i learned, not a bear  ) on this example, but the same would happen in larger areas, depending on the brightness of the area.
Clipping means cutting of details - the good thing is: if you don´t know what has been cut of, you probably won´t miss it.


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> Well, it´s a small thing (sloth i learned, not a bear  ) on this example, but the same would happen in larger areas, depending on the brightness of the area.
> Clipping means cutting of details - the good thing is: if you don´t know what has been cut of, you probably won´t miss it.


For sure, but we haven't really seen that yet. There are some corner cases that have shown issues though (Atomic Blonde is probably the worse). This clip in particular (croods 2) is one I found a long time ago and pointed out to Javs. Lumagen has known about it for a long time now. Pipeline was the priority, now DTM will be looked at. All of these clips will be looked at in internal testing when the code is implemented. The clipping from metadata will also be eliminated.


----------



## by96

Gordon Fraser said:


> Can i just check you mean an emitter to attach to front of the unit over the IR receiver? If you mean something to attach to the IR port on back of the device that socket is not for an external IR receiver. It is for a direct feed from a control system with an IR output. That socket is an IR input socket and when a cable is attached to it the front IR receiver is disabled. For that reason alone i suggest it's better to use an IR bud on front than the rear input.


Thank you for your response!! For the most part, I am using Control4 via serial to control the LRP. However, especially now when I am still messing around with settings, I want to just use the Lumagen remote at times. Unfortunately, the location of the LRP has the IR sensor on the front blocked by a cabinet door. My thought was to plug in an IR receiver (not blaster) to the back and place the receiver somewhere it is easily seen by the remote. Will that work? Thanks again!


----------



## Kris Deering

by96 said:


> Thank you for your response!! For the most part, I am using Control4 via serial to control the LRP. However, especially now when I am still messing around with settings, I want to just use the Lumagen remote at times. Unfortunately, the location of the LRP has the IR sensor on the front blocked by a cabinet door. My thought was to plug in an IR receiver (not blaster) to the back and place the receiver somewhere it is easily seen by the remote. Will that work? Thanks again!


That is what I do in my setup with no issues. I have an IR plug connected on the back (this deactivates the front IR sensor) and have an IR sensor in the front of the room going to an IR splitter along with my control system going to the same splitter (Harmony). This allows me to use the Harmony remote for everyday operation but also the Lumagen remote directly anytime I want by simply pointing it at the sensor in the front of the room. Works great.


----------



## jrp

I just got an email from someone who had another person on this forum claim the Radiance Pro does _not_ do dynamic tone mapping (DTM). That person is obviously not paying attention. To prevent this miss-information for propagating, allow me to once again describe what the Pro does for DTM.

The Radiance Pro analyzes every frame, and every region of every frame, and does its own scene detection and analysis for MaxCLL, MaxY, MaxFALL, and other internal parameters, and uses these to set the transfer function for every frame.

The Pro currently uses the MaxCLL from the source Metadata to set a limit on the maximum the Radiance Pro will pad a scene. If the MaxCLL is under-reported, since it is used as the maximum, it can cause clipping. Since content and sources continue to fail to get the single MaxCLL value correct, we are considering removing content MaxCLL from DTM completely. In fact, I have been using manual MaxCLL mode in the Lumagen demo theater for some time. I set it to 4000 nits. So in the demo theater I have already eliminated MaxCLL from use and rely 100% on the DTM of the Radiance Pro.

If someone tells you the Pro does not do dynamic tone mapping, they are (and I am being generous here) not paying attention.


----------



## jrp

Concerning IR control while using a control system:

It has been a while since I posted on this topic. Allow me to refresh my comments.

I recommend Xantech IR repeaters, or equivalent. These work very well with the back panel wired IR port on the Radiance Pro.

For systems in my house, I use either a Harmony elite (bedroom and family room), or URC (Lumagen Demo Theater). I position the IR output of these control systems next to the IR sensor for the Xantech IR repeater. These are placed so that the Xantech IR sensor "sees" the remote in my hand while I am sitting in my chair. 

So the IR output of the control system drives the IR input of the Xantech, and I can also use a handheld remote. I then use the IR outputs of the Xantech to drive IR "bugs" on electronics with only an IR sensor or, for devices like the Radiance Pro with wired IR inputs, the wired IR input port.

This setup is simple to set up and works great.


----------



## by96

jrp said:


> Concerning IR control while using a control system:
> 
> It has been a while since I posted on this topic. Allow me to refresh my comments.
> 
> I recommend Xantech IR repeaters, or equivalent. These work very well with the back panel wired IR port on the Radiance Pro.
> 
> For systems in my house, I use either a Harmony elite (bedroom and family room), or URC (Lumagen Demo Theater). I position the IR output of these control systems next to the IR sensor for the Xantech IR repeater. These are placed so that the Xantech IR sensor "sees" the remote in my hand while I am sitting in my chair.
> 
> So the IR output of the control system drives the IR input of the Xantech, and I can also use a handheld remote. I then use the IR outputs of the Xantech to drive IR "bugs" on electronics with only an IR sensor or, for devices like the Radiance Pro with wired IR inputs, the wired IR input port.
> 
> This setup is simple to set up and works great.


Thank you for the input. I thought I could just use a standalone IR receiver with the LRP but am fine using a small IR repeater kit. Just to be sure, for the 3.5mm cable between the IR hub and the LRP, should it be mono, stereo, or does it not matter? 

Thanks again!


----------



## jrp

Javs said:


> I look forward to testing this.
> 
> Please also test it in relation to smaller gamuts even P3, as you go smaller gamut what doesn't clip in BT2020 can clip in P3 etc, it would also be an opportune time to make BT709 not clip either.
> 
> Gamut clipping and just 'desat in general' to me are two different things. There are some scenes which LRP clips out of gamut and desat controls dont even have any effect and you need super super high MaxLight settings to fix (to stop clipping), such as: ...


The desaturation I have planned will be "color preserving." So, content outside of the 709, or P3, Gamut will remain outside. This should correct the clipping you have shown in your posts as long as the Radiance Pro output remains Rec Bt.2020.

I understand you would like to see mapping of 2020 to 709, with a roll-off rather than a clip for your 1080p setup. A reasonable request. However, since this usage model has to be under 1% of Radiance Pro owners, I propose it would be better to do this using the 3D LUT for this.

If a 3D LUT is done using Colourspace, then an augmented 3D LUT can be created to roll-off 2020 to 709, rather than clipping to 709.

For when a 3D LUT is not in the cards, I have spoken to a Colourspace calibrator and he has agreed to create a config file with a unity 3D LUT then augmented to convert 2020 to 709 Gamut, with a roll-off rather than a clip, for this usage case. If a 4k projector has a Gamut in the range of P3, again a 3D LUT is a good approach to roll off what little content is outside of P3 to P3. For the P3 Gamut case, without doing a full 3D LUT you would set the Radiance Pro output to SDR2020.

Your post serves as a reminder to me to talk to him again to see if he can complete this. Unfortunately he just left on a short trip, but I will ping him on this and see if he can create a Radiance Pro config with this 3D LUT. I will then make this config file available. This does require loading the config and then starting a fresh setup. So, it would need to be applied during the initial setup of a Radiance Pro.

After we have this I would appreciate your feedback on if it does what you are expecting. Might have to wait until after we release the new desaturation code, but even before this analysis can be done on this approach.


----------



## jrp

by96 said:


> Thank you for the input. I thought I could just use a standalone IR receiver with the LRP but am fine using a small IR repeater kit. Just to be sure, for the 3.5mm cable between the IR hub and the LRP, should it be mono, stereo, or does it not matter?
> 
> Thanks again!


When I designed the wired IR input (some 18+ years ago), I required the cable have a mono 3.5 mm plug. I used this fact to insert a pull-down resistor into the circuit (for all units manufactured after 2008) when using the wired IR input since the mono plug connects the mid-ring of the jack to ground.

This was the simplest design, but it will not work correctly if you plug in a stereo cable.


----------



## FenceMan

jrp said:


> I just got an email from someone who had another person on this forum claim the Radiance Pro does _not_ do dynamic tone mapping (DTM). That person is obviously not paying attention. To prevent this miss-information for propagating, allow me to once again describe what the Pro does for DTM.
> 
> The Radiance Pro analyzes every frame, and every region of every frame, and does its own scene detection and analysis for MaxCLL, MaxY, MaxFALL, and other internal parameters, and uses these to set the transfer function for every frame.
> 
> The Pro currently uses the MaxCLL from the source Metadata to set a limit on the maximum the Radiance Pro will pad a scene. If the MaxCLL is under-reported, since it is used as the maximum, it can cause clipping. Since content and sources continue to fail to get the single MaxCLL value correct, we are considering removing content MaxCLL from DTM completely. In fact, I have been using manual MaxCLL mode in the Lumagen demo theater for some time. I set it to 4000 nits. So in the demo theater I have already eliminated MaxCLL from use and rely 100% on the DTM of the Radiance Pro.
> 
> If someone tells you the Pro does not do dynamic tone mapping, they are (and I am being generous here) not paying attention.


As a self professed fan of the competition I specifically avoided posting something in this thread which would be interpreted as negative towards your product but if you are going to use my words lets at least give them the proper context.

I was discussing (in a private conversation) the following quote from earlier in this thread -

_"Really I don’t think there would be any benefit with HDR10+ just like Dolby vision.

Thats the whole point of the dynamic tone mapping. There is no need for things like this."_

I assume we can agree that this statement isn't worded exactly correctly as LRP does use metadata.

As far as if it is dynamic or not, I will explain why I said what I said. Every single definition I have ever read of Dynamic Tone Mapping specifically states that it ignores the metadata (even the quote above from the person that shared our private conversation with you says there is no need for metadata when using DTM so clearly that is how people define DTM). So my point (again in my private conversation) was that LRP does in fact use metadata and that it is not truly dynamic. Obviously you will disagree with this which is fine - if you say it is dynamic then its dynamic. I have certainly been paying attention and I have really been paying attention to the posts that have been made showing where using the metadata is causing some issues with highlights and detail on the LRP so I think discussing the use of metadata is fair game (though I still did it in private). There is no need to respond or drag this out, I will respectfully not post again on this subject in your thread and would not have said anything at all until someone (apparently) went around sharing private conversations.


----------



## fatherom

Using metadata as a guide for DTM doesn’t make it not dynamic. I’ve never read that anywhere. Sigh.

There’s also a big difference between basic metadata that comes with hdr and the more elaborate metadata that comes with Dolby vision or hdr10+.


----------



## Karl Maga

I think is worth noting that @FenceMan has a looong history of trolling and hostility towards LRP and it's fans. Funny how I knew who it was that made the deceitful claim as soon as I heard of it, and I was not surprised to see him run here to answer the dog whistle.

Grind that axe bro! Though I must say that after all this time it must be down to a stub.


----------



## FenceMan

Karl Maga said:


> I think is worth noting that @FenceMan has a looong history of trolling and hostility towards LRP and it's fans. Funny how I knew who it was that made the deceitful claim as soon as I heard of it, and I was not surprised to see him run here to answer the dog whistle.
> 
> Grind that axe bro! Though I must say that after all this time it must be down to a stub.


I simply pointed out what I actually said. I had a conversation in private about metadata, it's use, and the definition of DTM that's it. None of this had to be put on blast in the post that I know it doesn't belong thus I was discussing in private.


----------



## Kris Deering

JVC uses metadata with their dynamic solution as well. When you use the HDR LEVEL AUTO, it uses the metadata to determine which compression mode to use. Lumagen uses it to try and reduce the amount of padding it has to guess at. If you have a title with little to no highlights (say something from Roger Deakins), if the metadata tells you there is no information above say 125 nits, the Radiance now knows it doesn't need to pad anymore than that so it is not wasting range in anticipation of something that will never be there. It has nothing to do with being dynamic, it has to do with making choices for padding.


----------



## jqmn

FenceMan said:


> As far as if it is dynamic or not, I will explain why I said what I said. Every single definition I have ever read of Dynamic Tone Mapping specifically states that it ignores the metadata (even the quote above from the person that shared our private conversation with you says there is no need for metadata when using DTM so clearly that is how people define DTM).


Don't you agree that HDR10+ and DV metadata is static by its very nature?? Isn't it the decoder (in these cases in the display) that bridges the gap dynamically between the display's capabilities and the info coming in? Don't you agree that HDR10+ requires static mastering monitor color volume information be included in each content profile for each specific piece of content (just like HDR10 does)? If Envy or LRP wants to use MaxCLL or MaxFall in some way or not at all why does by definition that make what they are doing not DTM? Aren't they both generating some kind of equivalent scene by scene, frame by frame, within frame, and look-ahead to feed (done by an HDR10+ grader ahead of time and burned into a stream or disc) into a transform that is set based on user input? How is that different (except perhaps artistically) than what a JVC does with predetermined, non on-the-fly incoming HDR10+ static metadata and its in-built decoder? Is it that mapping all this into gamma 2.4 or 2.2 on the fly is not dynamic? You've lost me technically and for whatever comparative point you are trying to make. Can you put some meat on this here or in any of the other threads?

And what @Kris Deering just said with respect to why it would be used in a LRP


----------



## jrp

FenceMan said:


> As a self professed fan of the competition I specifically avoided posting something in this thread which would be interpreted as negative towards your product but if you are going to use my words lets at least give them the proper context.
> 
> I was discussing (in a private conversation) the following quote from earlier in this thread -
> 
> _"Really I don’t think there would be any benefit with HDR10+ just like Dolby vision.
> 
> Thats the whole point of the dynamic tone mapping. There is no need for things like this."_
> 
> I assume we can agree that this statement isn't worded exactly correctly as LRP does use metadata.
> 
> As far as if it is dynamic or not, I will explain why I said what I said. Every single definition I have ever read of Dynamic Tone Mapping specifically states that it ignores the metadata (even the quote above from the person that shared our private conversation with you says there is no need for metadata when using DTM so clearly that is how people define DTM). So my point (again in my private conversation) was that LRP does in fact use metadata and that it is not truly dynamic. Obviously you will disagree with this which is fine - if you say it is dynamic then its dynamic. I have certainly been paying attention and I have really been paying attention to the posts that have been made showing where using the metadata is causing some issues with highlights and detail on the LRP so I think discussing the use of metadata is fair game (though I still did it in private). There is no need to respond or drag this out, I will respectfully not post again on this subject in your thread and would not have said anything at all until someone (apparently) went around sharing private conversations.


For you to say that the Radiance Pro does not have Dynamic Tone Mapping because it pays some attention to the Metadata, is to miss-understand what DTM is.

Enough said.


----------



## Kris Deering

jqmn said:


> Don't you agree that HDR10+ and DV metadata is static by its very nature?? Isn't it the decoder (in these cases in the display) that bridges the gap dynamically between the display's capabilities and the info coming in? Don't you agree that HDR10+ requires static mastering monitor color volume information be included in each content profile for each specific piece of content (just like HDR10 does)? If Envy or LRP wants to use MaxCLL or MaxFall in some way or not at all why does by definition that make what they are doing not DTM? Aren't they both generating some kind of equivalent scene by scene, frame by frame, within frame, and look-ahead to feed (done by an HDR10+ grader ahead of time and burned into a stream or disc) into a transform that is set based on user input? How is that different (except perhaps artistically) than what a JVC does with predetermined, non on-the-fly incoming HDR10+ static metadata and its in-built decoder? Is it that mapping all this into gamma 2.4 or 2.2 on the fly is not dynamic? You've lost me technically and for whatever comparative point you are trying to make. Can you put some meat on this here or in any of the other threads?
> 
> And what @Kris Deering just said with respect to why it would be used in a LRP


Neither Dolby Vision or HDR10+ are in fact dynamic tone mapping solutions. They are static tone mapping solutions. The content is pre-flagged so that the display doesn't have to do anything dynamic at all. It is told what the static tone map should be for any scene and it applies it. It doesn't have to guess about anything. MadVR and Lumagen both have to guess what to do for every scene/frame and have nothing to work with but the frame itself. MadVR buffers more frames, so it can look a bit ahead, which allows it to be more aggressive with how much range to assign for any one frame without clipping. Lumagen looks one frame ahead, so has to put a bit in reserve just in case the next frame has a large transition/highlight that could cause clipping. The whole point of dynamic tone mapping is trying to balance how much of the available dynamic range a display has with the amount the content needs on a frame by frame or scene by scene basis. If there are ways you can derive data that helps you manage how you decide how much headroom to apply, great. The problem isn't that Lumagen uses that data, it definitely helps in many cases. The problem is the content providers do not always provide metadata that is correct despite being part of the standard.


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> Neither Dolby Vision or HDR10+ are in fact dynamic tone mapping solutions. They are static tone mapping solutions. The content is pre-flagged so that the display doesn't have to do anything dynamic at all. It is told what the static tone map should be for any scene and it applies it. It doesn't have to guess about anything. MadVR and Lumagen both have to guess what to do for every scene/frame and have nothing to work with but the frame itself. MadVR buffers more frames, so it can look a bit ahead, which allows it to be more aggressive with how much range to assign for any one frame without clipping. Lumagen looks one frame ahead, so has to put a bit in reserve just in case the next frame has a large transition/highlight that could cause clipping. The whole point of dynamic tone mapping is trying to balance how much of the available dynamic range a display has with the amount the content needs on a frame by frame or scene by scene basis. If there are ways you can derive data that helps you manage how you decide how much headroom to apply, great. The problem isn't that Lumagen uses that data, it definitely helps in many cases. The problem is the content providers do not always provide metadata that is correct despite being part of the standard.


We agree completely. People get confused by thinking DV is dynamic because it is in the Dynamic Metadata 2094 standard. Well the stream of metadata is ever changing so that's its dynamic sense but it is a fixed stream of metadata set ahead of time going into the decoder. It is neither here nor there whether DV does or does not look at MaxCLL or anything else. That is up to Dolby but it doesn't make what they are doing any less "DTM" if they use those values in some way (or not).


----------



## edthomp

Kris Deering said:


> JVC uses metadata with their dynamic solution as well. When you use the HDR LEVEL AUTO, it uses the metadata to determine which compression mode to use. Lumagen uses it to try and reduce the amount of padding it has to guess at. If you have a title with little to no highlights (say something from Roger Deakins), if the metadata tells you there is no information above say 125 nits, the Radiance now knows it doesn't need to pad anymore than that so it is not wasting range in anticipation of something that will never be there. It has nothing to do with being dynamic, it has to do with making choices for padding.


Just out of curiosity. I pretty much exclusively use the Lumagen fed by a Kaleidescape. Since Kaleidescape vets and tweaks the files they get from the studios before distributing them on the K platform...do they go with the metadata provided by the studios which could be wrong? Or do they update the metadata to be correct since they have that information and that access? Asked another way, for the K connected to the Lumagen, can the Lumagen better trust the K metadata?


----------



## Kris Deering

edthomp said:


> Just out of curiosity. I pretty much exclusively use the Lumagen fed by a Kaleidescape. Since Kaleidescape vets and tweaks the files they get from the studios before distributing them on the K platform...do they go with the metadata provided by the studios which could be wrong? Or do they update the metadata to be correct since they have that information and that access? Asked another way, for the K connected to the Lumagen, can the Lumagen better trust the K metadata?


Kaleidescape has some of the worst metadata I’ve seen unfortunately. I’ve reported this to them a few times.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> Kaleidescape has some of the worst metadata I’ve seen unfortunately. I’ve reported this to them a few times.


Does the metadata just come from the studios or K? SJ


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> The problem isn't that Lumagen uses that data, it definitely helps in many cases. The problem is the content providers do not always provide metadata that is correct despite being part of the standard.


Hence it IS a problem... To rely on data you know that it is not always correct is not a good idea. But that´s being addressed now and everything will be good.
BTW: The Envy is using metadata as well - to display it on the OSD  Does it mean it´s not doing DTM as well?


----------



## bobof

by96 said:


> Thank you for the input. I thought I could just use a standalone IR receiver with the LRP but am fine using a small IR repeater kit. Just to be sure, for the 3.5mm cable between the IR hub and the LRP, should it be mono, stereo, or does it not matter?


Most of the IR receiver dongles you see from Xantech etc can't be used stand-alone with any device (other that specialist control systems). They usually have 3 pins - supply, ground and signal - and need a device to act as a power supply to them for the electronics in the receiver module. At a minimum there is usually a small box that the IR receiver connects to, which supplies power to the receiver and then has outputs for devices to be connected to. IR inputs on consumer electronics devices are almost always devoid of the power supply that the modules need. The IR repeater kits have everything you need and usually represent the minimum useable IR repeating system.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> I think "don't" is a bit strong...


It was necessary to catch the eye 

I realised, after I posted, that the solution is "simple": Lumagen should delay audio, along with the video, such that any frame delay is accompanied by the same audio delay. This removes the issue entirely for those who use audio feed from the Lumagen as any audio delay would be constant. I'm not entirely sure, due to architecture, that the LRP could delay audio even if they wanted to...?



> I could easily accommodate 42 - 83ms of video delay in my system.


That is only just sufficient for the existing setup; at least in my experience. My system has approx 87ms available, and there are occasions where a source will exceed that limit. This is my concern - we have limited wriggle room to work with different sources but that would rapidly run out with extended frame delays. The solution, as noted above, is to delay the audio so that the LRP is a constant delay device - but, as above, I'm not sure that's an option.

Even it it were, for those who have the audio processor before the Lumagen, the problem of extended audio delay would be a big problem.


----------



## steelman1991

Kris Deering said:


> Kaleidescape has some of the worst metadata I’ve seen unfortunately. I’ve reported this to them a few times.


Well that's fairly alarming, particularly for a "premium" service. Are you aware if anything has been done to rectify this. I only run DTM on my JVC PJ, which I assumed was being fed the correct metdata.


----------



## Javs

I recall Madshi saying that auto lip-sync protocol supports up to 500ms or so of audio delay added to the chain automatically even though AVR's only show about 200ms. So any delay is kind of irrelevant here unless you are gaming.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> I realised, after I posted, that the solution is "simple": Lumagen should delay audio, along with the video, such that any frame delay is accompanied by the same audio delay. This removes the issue entirely for those who use audio feed from the Lumagen as any audio delay would be constant. I'm not entirely sure, due to architecture, that the LRP could delay audio even if they wanted to...?


From what I understand it is not an option to delay audio on the Radiance Pro, and I don't believe it can be added by means of an update, as by the way Jim has previously described it, the I2S is untouched by the FPGA and goes direct from the HDMI receivers to the transmitters. (or thereabouts) 



Mark_H said:


> That is only just sufficient for the existing setup; at least in my experience. My system has approx 87ms available, and there are occasions where a source will exceed that limit. This is my concern - we have limited wriggle room to work with different sources but that would rapidly run out with extended frame delays. The solution, as noted above, is to delay the audio so that the LRP is a constant delay device - but, as above, I'm not sure that's an option.


Sounds like you could comfortably accommodate an extra frame video delay and still have a frame's worth in hand for badly behaved sources...


----------



## bobof

Javs said:


> I recall Madshi saying that auto lip-sync protocol supports up to 500ms or so of audio delay added to the chain automatically even though AVR's only show about 200ms. So any delay is kind of irrelevant here unless you are gaming.


There is some relevance at the upper echelons of audio gear, as many high-end AVP do not support the HDMI auto lipsync function (Trinnov are one of the more notable ones that come to mind, but I think it also affects NAD from memory, and my Monoprice HTP1). I recall @woofer had issues getting lipsync right with his (I think) NAD M17 processor and the Envy.

If you stick to the more mainstream consumer AVR/P then perhaps not an issue, but you'd expect more than average numbers of VPs to be installed with high-end Audio gear.


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> There is some relevance at the upper echelons of audio gear, as many high-end AVP do not support the HDMI auto lipsync function (Trinnov are one of the more notable ones that come to mind, but I think it also affects NAD from memory, and my Monoprice HTP1). I recall @woofer had issues getting lipsync right with his (I think) NAD M17 processor and the Envy.


Our standard installs are usually with Trinnov and we never had an issue combining it with an Envy. As it adds a fixed amount of delay, and if the AVR you´re using is capable of dealing with the additional ms, then i can´t think of any additional issue that might cause.


----------



## Naiera

As the most important feature on the Radiance scalers these days seems to be "making HDR go away", I will just link to a very useful thread elsewhere on this forum. I had no idea so many streaming services offered 4K SDR streams!

Of course, we still need our LRPs for UHD discs, HBO Max, Disney+ and such  My primary need remains being able to do gamma correction externally, as doing so in the Sony 270/295ES introduces terrible banding. At least now I have merely bad banding 🤪


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Does the metadata just come from the studios or K? SJ


I'm not sure on that one. K did say they can change the metadata, but it would be a new download.


----------



## Craig Peer

Ash Sharma said:


> I had to 1 Up You Craig...
> My visit to the Holy Ground..
> Look how rocky the soil is....
> View attachment 3333927
> 
> 
> View attachment 3333928


Been there twice brother - great part of the world to visit!


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> ... Of course, we still need our LRPs for UHD discs, HBO Max, Disney+ and such  My primary need remains being able to do gamma correction externally, as doing so in the Sony 270/295ES introduces terrible banding. At least now I have merely bad banding 🤪


For projectors that have some intrinsic contouring/banding, I recommend going into the output Style (typically Style0) and try setting the dither to a lower number of bits. Dithering tends to mitigate contouring/banding in projectors and TVs. It is here in the menu:

*MENU . Output . Styles . [Style] . HDMI Format . Dither*

For example if you are watching 24 Hertz content, that normally outputs as 12-bit 4:2:2 you can try 11, 10, 9, 8, or even 7 bit as the dither position. Keep the number as high as you can while mitigating the contouring/banding.

Press OK to accept the change and when you are happy with the setting do a Save.

I would be interested in hearing about your results of using dither from the Radiance Pro to mitigate the contouring in the projector.


----------



## Naiera

I actually set dither to 8 last night to deal with a different issue. The 270/295ES treats 4K differently from 1080p in more ways than one, and some disturbing artifacts (not sure what else to call it) have come to light over the last few days of watching. Some of it will go away when switching to Color Space 2, instead of 709*, which we used for what we thought would be the final calibration, at least for now. Seems like we'll have to get at it again, but 8-bit out dithering has at least remedied the issue for now.

*We figured that it was Color Space 2 and not the resolution that was causing banding to get quite a bit more severe when we calibrated the 4442+ that is no longer with us, which is why we went with 709 for the second try at the 4242. Seems it wasn't, so a DCI-P3 calibration is still on the table. Note that the difference in banding from 1080p to 4K via various LRPs is nothing like the amount of banding introduced when doing gamma correction internally in the projector. That's basically useless. Without at least a 1080p Radiance, I would definitely not be satisfied with this projector.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Have finally gotten to the point of things working pretty well thanks to Jim + some little “Lumagen angels”.

X series JVC… custom DTM settings with both transitions up two clicks from default and DTM gamma up to 2. This makes much better use of the massive near-black dynamic range for the X series. The image is just stunning and contrast is back to where I like it.

Also remedied the low light output and close to 60nits for CinemaScope and 80nits for 16:9. Good enough for me.

My final “project” with the unit is quiet and efficient cooling. Is it possible to solder in a replacement fan that’s quieter you think? How about soldering in one extra to the 12V DC the current one is soldered to in parallel to cool the motherboard… ?


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Sounds like you could comfortably accommodate an extra frame video delay and still have a frame's worth in hand for badly behaved sources...


When adjustment range is limited, each added frame of delay reduces wriggle room significantly. Perhaps I could accommodate one extra frame delay, but I wouldn't say comfortably, because as I previously mentioned there are already occasions where I run out of adjustment. It's a slippery slope issue - each added frame means more instances of not enough lipsync available.


----------



## Schurter

NinjaTypeR said:


> Have finally gotten to the point of things working pretty well thanks to Jim + some little “Lumagen angels”.
> 
> X series JVC… custom DTM settings with both transitions up two clicks from default and DTM gamma up to 2. This makes much better use of the massive near-black dynamic range for the X series. The image is just stunning and contrast is back to where I like it.
> 
> Also remedied the low light output and close to 60nits for CinemaScope and 80nits for 16:9. Good enough for me.
> 
> My final “project” with the unit is quiet and efficient cooling. Is it possible to solder in a replacement fan that’s quieter you think? How about soldering in one extra to the 12V DC the current one is soldered to in parallel to cool the motherboard… ?


If you don't mind could you go into detail on your setup. 

I have x950 jvc 
I am looking at LRP

So I am very interested in what you did to achieve your goals 

Jeremy


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Schurter said:


> If you don't mind could you go into detail on your setup.
> 
> I have x950 jvc
> I am looking at LRP
> 
> So I am very interested in what you did to achieve your goals
> 
> Jeremy


No worries. 
Well, you may just turn on DTM with defaults and love the results. To me, the defaults are too low contrast, especially when you have such a massive dynamic range near black on the X series. I think the defaults might be appropriate for an N or Z series JVC. in addition, I’m super sensitive to mid-tone compression so had to change where the curve transitions otherwise I was seeing wax face everywhere. Not everyone’s perception is the same though so your mileage may vary. 

To change the DTM defaults, you have to go into service mode (it’s one of the menu options), then you press left on the remote to access the DTM service mode options. Pressing Alt on the remote while DTM settings are up switches between the settings for the low and high parts of the DTM curve. This gives you access to the low and high trans values. You increase both by 2. Then you put DTM gamma to 2 as well.

In addition, I have DPAD at 1 because I don’t care about the occasional clipping. Compared to even JVC’s DTM solution, it’s so minuscule that it’s not worth worrying about.

Otherwise Low Ratio of 31 and MaxLight at 400. Press Ok to save. (You can only change MaxLight in user mode so maybe do that first before you enter service mode).

If you prefer more shadow detail at the expense of contrast, you can either increase Low Ratio a bit or pull gamma back to 1.

If you have trouble after you get your LRP, just PM me and I’ll help you.

Jim at Lumagen and @woofer helped with advice and testing for the settings I arrived at. Without these settings, the Lumagen would have been a goner as I didn’t get along with defaults … it’s impressive that it’s so configurable and very good they didn’t remove the more detailed options.


----------



## Schurter

NinjaTypeR said:


> No worries.
> Well, you may just turn on DTM with defaults and love the results. To me, the defaults are too low contrast, especially when you have such a massive dynamic range near black on the X series. I think the defaults might be appropriate for an N or Z series JVC. in addition, I’m super sensitive to mid-tone compression so had to change where the curve transitions otherwise I was seeing wax face everywhere. Not everyone’s perception is the same though so your mileage may vary.
> 
> To change the DTM defaults, you have to go into service mode (it’s one of the menu options), then you press left on the remote to access the DTM service mode options. Pressing Alt on the remote while DTM settings are up switches between the settings for the low and high parts of the DTM curve. This gives you access to the low and high trans values. You increase both by 2. Then you put DTM gamma to 2 as well.
> 
> In addition, I have DPAD at 1 because I don’t care about the occasional clipping. Compared to even JVC’s DTM solution, it’s so minuscule that it’s not worth worrying about.
> 
> Otherwise Low Ratio of 31 and MaxLight at 400. Press Ok to save. (You can only change MaxLight in user mode so maybe do that first before you enter service mode).
> 
> If you prefer more shadow detail at the expense of contrast, you can either increase Low Ratio a bit or pull gamma back to 1.
> 
> If you have trouble after you get your LRP, just PM me and I’ll help you.
> 
> Jim at Lumagen and @woofer helped with advice and testing for the settings I arrived at. Without these settings, the Lumagen would have been a goner as I didn’t get along with defaults … it’s impressive that it’s so configurable and very good they didn’t remove the more detailed options.


Thank you very much, 

I know the x jvc shine in the blu-ray content and your hdr just sucks lol, 
But can be worked into awesome images, 

I don't think I'll care about clipping a few images, 

My jvc is low lamp, 140inch 2.39 screen 
Carls flex white 1g 
Jarvis custom curves, 
I am super happy with it right now, 

Jeremy


----------



## Schurter

It would almost be nice if there was a group from x , n , z


----------



## Javs

Schurter said:


> Thank you very much,
> 
> I know the x jvc shine in the blu-ray content and your hdr just sucks lol,
> But can be worked into awesome images,
> 
> I don't think I'll care about clipping a few images,
> 
> My jvc is low lamp, 140inch 2.39 screen
> Carls flex white 1g
> Jarvis custom curves,
> I am super happy with it right now,
> 
> Jeremy


The name is Javs


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Schurter said:


> Thank you very much,
> 
> I know the x jvc shine in the blu-ray content and your hdr just sucks lol,
> But can be worked into awesome images,
> 
> I don't think I'll care about clipping a few images,
> 
> My jvc is low lamp, 140inch 2.39 screen
> Carls flex white 1g
> Jarvis custom curves,
> I am super happy with it right now,
> 
> Jeremy


Well, if you’re super happy, then you may not need a Lumagen. But of course it’s always that curiosity if it can be better.

I would say that there are levels of improvement for HDR with the X series from where you are…
1. Custom Curves made by others (Javs, Manni) - you seem to be here. 
2. Custom curves made by you using Arve’s Tool to tailor it to your setup (and preferences)
3. Point 2 with LLDV (fed through an HD Fury)
4. Lumagen DTM or MadVR DTM

You could jump to point 4 and be done with it or you can try all 4 and enjoy ther ride. ;-)


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Schurter said:


> I don't think I'll care about clipping a few images,


I let the guys on here worry about polishing the pixels. They are doing an excellent job and everyone gets the benefit over time.

For the average user, clipping is a non issue even at DPAD 1, IMHO. I don’t want to sacrifice 99% of the content for a few frames here or there. Jim, Javs and the other guys will work that (less than) 1% out with a future release. Not a bother or priority for me.

I map to SDR BT2020 for now as I don’t want any gamut clipping in the Lumagen - minus what the display introduces. Running a 3D LUT with ColourSpace could get even better results but I haven’t had the time. But even without that, it looks great!

If I had any wish, it would be for both JVC and Lumagen to properly handle 4:4:4 chroma input / output / upscaling. While it might be an area of argument / discussion as to why that’s necessary, it would give me peace of mind to know both luma and chroma get scaled to full resolution with a high-quality algorithm. But as far as I know none of the JVCs handle 4:4:4 chroma properly at this point so probably moot point until they fix it…


----------



## Schurter

Javs said:


> The name is Javs


Sorry auto correct,


----------



## Dave Harper

edthomp said:


> Just out of curiosity. I pretty much exclusively use the Lumagen fed by a Kaleidescape. Since Kaleidescape vets and tweaks the files they get from the studios before distributing them on the K platform...do they go with the metadata provided by the studios which could be wrong? Or do they update the metadata to be correct since they have that information and that access? Asked another way, for the K connected to the Lumagen, can the Lumagen better trust the K metadata?





Kris Deering said:


> Kaleidescape has some of the worst metadata I’ve seen unfortunately. I’ve reported this to them a few times.





SJHT said:


> Does the metadata just come from the studios or K? SJ





steelman1991 said:


> Well that's fairly alarming, particularly for a "premium" service. Are you aware if anything has been done to rectify this. I only run DTM on my JVC PJ, which I assumed was being fed the correct metdata.





Kris Deering said:


> I'm not sure on that one. K did say they can change the metadata, but it would be a new download.


I did some basic testing with the Kaleidescape we have here from the UST Laser TV Showdown and I noticed that they seem to be using “pre-mapped” versions of films, probably to around 1,000 nits I’d think. 

When I play the famous scenes from high nit movies like The Meg and Aquaman, they are rendered perfectly without any hint of overblown highlights in the window frame (Aquaman), sky or clouds (Meg). 

I’ve tested it on about three USTs so far, the last being the new Epson LS800 which I’m sure doesn’t have any DTM built in. 

Has anyone else tested their Kaleidescape without their Lumagen (or other DTM device) in the signal chain to confirm that DTM may not be needed for the Kaleidescape HDR movies? If you try it on your newer JVC, make sure to not use Frame Adapt mode.


----------



## Kris Deering

Dave Harper said:


> I did some basic testing with the Kaleidescape we have here from the UST Laser TV Showdown and I noticed that they seem to be using “pre-mapped” versions of films, probably to around 1,000 nits I’d think.
> 
> When I play the famous scenes from high nit movies like The Meg and Aquaman, they are rendered perfectly without any hint of overblown highlights in the window frame (Aquaman), sky or clouds (Meg).
> 
> I’ve tested it on about three USTs so far, the last being the new Epson LS800 which I’m sure doesn’t have any DTM built in.
> 
> Has anyone else tested their Kaleidescape without their Lumagen (or other DTM device) in the signal chain to confirm that DTM may not be needed for the Kaleidescape HDR movies? If you try it on your newer JVC, make sure to not use Frame Adapt mode.


I've confirmed with K that they do not do ANYTHING to the HDR grading, so they are the same as the disc counterparts. There are plenty of K movies that still have high nit transfers that would cause clipping. I used the K during the Colorado event and demonstrated this at the event because a lot of people there didn't understand what clipping meant or what to look for.


----------



## Dave Harper

Kris Deering said:


> I've confirmed with K that they do not do ANYTHING to the HDR grading, so they are the same as the disc counterparts. There are plenty of K movies that still have high nit transfers that would cause clipping. I used the K during the Colorado event and demonstrated this at the event because a lot of people there didn't understand what clipping meant or what to look for.


Excellent thanks for the info and confirmation. I’m curious why Aquaman and The Meg didn’t require any external DTM though? I was told the same thing you said by the K-scape rep who was there. My testing showed otherwise. I’ll have to try to get hold of it more for more info and testing so I can find movies that are high nit and cause the clipping you mention. Can you share some examples?

At first I thought maybe the ForMovie Theater UST or the AVProEdge gear in the chain may have done some rudimentary tone mapping, but then I connected directly from the Kaleidescape to the ForMovie and the new Epson LS800 and I got the same results. Perfect tone mapping with no clipping on those very familiar scenes. 

Would you or anyone else be willing to test these scenes and others, making sure no DTM is activated anywhere?

You’re saying Kaleidescape says “_they_” don’t do anything to the films, but perhaps the studios do before they give it to them? . They always tout that it isn’t the same as discs cuz they use the mezzanine files.


----------



## jrp

NinjaTypeR said:


> ...
> 
> If I had any wish, it would be for both JVC and Lumagen to properly handle 4:4:4 chroma input / output / upscaling. While it might be an area of argument / discussion as to why that’s necessary, it would give me peace of mind to know both luma and chroma get scaled to full resolution with a high-quality algorithm. But as far as I know none of the JVCs handle 4:4:4 chroma properly at this point so probably moot point until they fix it…


Since content is 4:2:0, having the Pro input be 4:2:2 is mathematically no different than 4:4:4. It just means the Pro is converting from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 instead of the source. This is either no-difference, or the Pro will do a better job (as we have seen versus some source devices over the years).

Then if you want 4:4:4 to the projector, you should note that the Pro pipeline _is_ 4:4:4 from the output of the scaler to the output when the output is set to 4:4:4 or RGB. 

The fact that the JVCs don't do 4:4:4 or RGB as well as they could means outputting 4:4:4 or RGB at 18 GHz only serves to reduce the pixel depth from 12-bits (at 18 GHz) to 8-bits. While I believe that with the Pro's excellent output dither you cannot see the difference for real video content between 8 bit dithered and 12-bits, I would still recommend 4:2:2 output from the Radiance Pro for 4k60 when using an 18 GHz card (assuming the projector input is up to working at 18 GHz). This means choosing the output format as 4:2:2.


----------



## DigitalAV

4k60-42x output definitely looks better now with the chroma bug fix -- e.g. Netflix logo used to have a thin black "shadow" to the left of the red text, now just solid red & menus just have an overall cleaner look from normal seating distance. Thanks to Javs aka Jarvis, Jim, & Pat


----------



## NinjaTypeR

jrp said:


> Since content is 4:2:0, having the Pro input be 4:2:2 is mathematically no different than 4:4:4. It just means the Pro is converting from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 instead of the source. This is either no-difference, or the Pro will do a better job (as we have seen versus some source devices over the years).
> 
> Then if you want 4:4:4 to the projector, you should note that the Pro pipeline _is_ 4:4:4 from the output of the scaler to the output when the output is set to 4:4:4 or RGB.
> 
> The fact that the JVCs don't do 4:4:4 or RGB as well as they could means outputting 4:4:4 or RGB at 18 GHz only serves to reduce the pixel depth from 12-bits (at 18 GHz) to 8-bits. While I believe that with the Pro's excellent output dither you cannot see the difference for real video content between 8 bit dithered and 12-bits, I would still recommend 4:2:2 output from the Radiance Pro for 4k60 when using an 18 GHz card (assuming the projector input is up to working at 18 GHz). This means choosing the output format as 4:2:2.


Thank you for clearing that up, Jim. That’s good there is an option for the pipeline to be 4:4:4 all the way. I tend to use RGB or 4:4:4 for games when possible but now mainly game on the OLED or the QLED., only occasionally in the HT.


----------



## by96

by96 said:


> Thank you for the input. I thought I could just use a standalone IR receiver with the LRP but am fine using a small IR repeater kit. Just to be sure, for the 3.5mm cable between the IR hub and the LRP, should it be mono, stereo, or does it not matter?
> 
> Thanks again!


For anyone who is looking for a simple, cheap IR repeater, I just got this one and it is small and works great. I just added a 3.5mm mono cable between the IR repeater and the LRP. This is the best price I found.









Compact IR Remote Control Repeater Infrared Kit System Satellite TV Amplifier | eBay


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## jrp

We should be posting the pipeline enhancement "production candidate" today.

This has a small bug fix, and some minor timing improvements in the FPGA. The release is working well here, and FPGA synthesis timing looks very good. However, we will wait to call it a production release until we have some feedback from the field to ensure it works on other units, and ensure there are no significant bugs to fix first.


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## desray2k

jrp said:


> We should be posting the pipeline enhancement "production candidate" today.
> 
> This has a small bug fix, and some minor timing improvements in the FPGA. The release is working well here, and FPGA synthesis timing looks very good. However, we will wait to call it a production release until we have some feedback from the field to ensure it works on other units, and ensure there are no significant bugs to fix first.


Jim, how do we get this "production candidate" firmware? through the official Lumagen software update website?


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## Woof Woof

by96 said:


> For anyone who is looking for a simple, cheap IR repeater, I just got this one and it is small and works great. I just added a 3.5mm mono cable between the IR repeater and the LRP. This is the best price I found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compact IR Remote Control Repeater Infrared Kit System Satellite TV Amplifier | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Compact IR Remote Control Repeater Infrared Kit System Satellite TV Amplifier at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


IR Infrared Remote Control Receiver Extender Repeater Emitter USB Adapter AU IR Infrared Remote Control Receiver Extender Repeater Emitter USB Adapter AU : Amazon.com.au: Electronics

Would something like this work?


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## audioguy

*HERE* is the IR repeater I purchased from Amazon and it works perfectly. I have the IR sensor stuck up against the screen wall near the floor so that my Lumagen remote can point to it. Works perfect and cheap !!


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## PeterLarsson

I have a problem since I changed projector from Sony VW790 that had 4k panel 4096*2160 and my new Sony XW7000 with a UHD panel of 3840*2160.

i have a 2.35 screen and now there is a black area in the bottom - see picture









The only fix I could dowas changing output-styles-style0-mask/shrink-shrinkand changing Output shrink bottom from 12% to 10,5% which fills the screen but stretches the picture a bit.









I am probably missing something - would like to get some input - thanks!


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## Des511

PeterLarsson said:


> I have a problem since I changed projector from Sony VW790 that had 4k panel 4096*2160 and my new Sony XW7000 with a UHD panel of 3840*2160.
> 
> i have a 2.35 screen and now there is a black area in the bottom - see picture
> View attachment 3335589
> 
> 
> The only fix I could dowas changing output-styles-style0-mask/shrink-shrinkand changing Output shrink bottom from 12% to 10,5% which fills the screen but stretches the picture a bit.
> View attachment 3335590
> 
> 
> I am probably missing something - would like to get some input - thanks!


Is your output in the Lumagen still set to 4096*2160?


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## PeterLarsson

No - I changed it to 3840*2160 in the output - that had always been the output actually.


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## fatherom

PeterLarsson said:


> No - I changed it to 3840*2160 in the output - that had always been the output actually.


Are you sure the new projector zoom/shift is properly aligned using the projector's built in test pattern? (consult the manual to be sure of which lines on the test pattern you should line up with your screen)


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## by96

Woof Woof said:


> IR Infrared Remote Control Receiver Extender Repeater Emitter USB Adapter AU IR Infrared Remote Control Receiver Extender Repeater Emitter USB Adapter AU : Amazon.com.au: Electronics
> 
> Would something like this work?


I don't think it would work. As I learned, you need a IR repeater like the ones that I and @audioguy posted.


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I have a problem since I changed projector from Sony VW790 that had 4k panel 4096*2160 and my new Sony XW7000 with a UHD panel of 3840*2160.
> 
> i have a 2.35 screen and now there is a black area in the bottom - see picture
> View attachment 3335589
> 
> 
> The only fix I could dowas changing output-styles-style0-mask/shrink-shrinkand changing Output shrink bottom from 12% to 10,5% which fills the screen but stretches the picture a bit.
> View attachment 3335590
> 
> 
> I am probably missing something - would like to get some input - thanks!


Output style display aspect ratio perhaps?
I can't see why it would have changed though, unless you were doing something a bit odd in the projector previously (ie outputting 3840x2160 and then zooming it to full width in the projector digitally, yuk)


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## PeterLarsson

fatherom said:


> Are you sure the new projector zoom/shift is properly aligned using the projector's built in test pattern? (consult the manual to be sure of which lines on the test pattern you should line up with your screen)


I dont really follow - I mean the projectors panel is what it is? I dont underland what you mean.


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## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Output style display aspect ratio perhaps?
> I can't see why it would have changed though, unless you were doing something a bit odd in the projector previously (ie outputting 3840x2160 and then zooming it to full width in the projector digitally, yuk)


It is still 2.35. The thing i did to fill the entire screen was to shrink from 12% to 10,5%. That might be the solution - but it distorts the picture dimensions.


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## dlinsley

PeterLarsson said:


> I have a problem since I changed projector from Sony VW790 that had 4k panel 4096*2160 and my new Sony XW7000 with a UHD panel of 3840*2160.
> 
> i have a 2.35 screen and now there is a black area in the bottom - see picture


Can you remove the shrink, set aspect back to 16:9, then zoom down the projector so that the panel fills the screen vertically (ie display the full 16:9 image). I'd measure the 16:9 image to ensure it really is also 16:9 and rule out that you don't have a lens issue.



PeterLarsson said:


> I dont really follow - I mean the projectors panel is what it is? I dont underland what you mean.





PeterLarsson said:


> It is still 2.35. The thing i did to fill the entire screen was to shrink from 12% to 10,5%. That might be the solution - but it distorts the picture dimensions.


The top and bottom shrink should be equal, and then use vertical lens shift in the projector to move the image to align to the frame.


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I dont really follow - I mean the projectors panel is what it is? I dont underland what you mean.


You could be projecting some of the top of the image onto the black frame I guess is the point..

The correct setting for a true 2.35:1 screen is 2.35:1 aspect in output style and top / bottom shrink 12% each.
Do you have a test disc like Spears & Munsill that can show the various screen aspect lines to check?


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## bosler.bruce

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074CNWJZV?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Using this repeater. Receiver in front of room. Lumagen and DVD player in rear with emitter near projector using the stick on emitters. Could also use blaster or hard wire the Lumagen


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## Naiera

Have any of you fellas here had any luck with Zappiti or Zidoo players?

I know it's off-topic, but I need just one or two of you fine gentlemen to chime in with experiences with either or both and an LRP. 

It'll only be for a few home-subbed 4K discs, so it doesn't have to be a perfect user experience or anything; just perfect playback with subs in SRT format or muxed into an MKV, etc.


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## melb0028

Naiera said:


> Have any of you fellas here had any luck with Zappiti or Zidoo players?
> 
> I know it's off-topic, but I need just one or two of you fine fellas to chime in with experiences with either or both and an LRP.
> 
> It'll only be for a few home-subbed 4K discs, so it doesn't have to be a perfect user experience or anything; just perfect playback with subs in SRT format or muxed into an MKV, etc.


My zappiti signature works perfectly with my LRP. Shockingly good image quality when properly set up.


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## mikela

Naiera said:


> Have any of you fellas here had any luck with Zappiti or Zidoo players?
> 
> I know it's off-topic, but I need just one or two of you fine gentlemen to chime in with experiences with either or both and an LRP.
> 
> It'll only be for a few home-subbed 4K discs, so it doesn't have to be a perfect user experience or anything; just perfect playback with subs in SRT format or muxed into an MKV, etc.


I use a Zidoo Z9X as my main player. I use it for my multi-channel music and approximately 1500 movies. A fellow AVS member just viewed Alita through it and gave his opinion on image quality here.


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## OzHDHT

Naiera said:


> Have any of you fellas here had any luck with Zappiti or Zidoo players?
> 
> I know it's off-topic, but I need just one or two of you fine gentlemen to chime in with experiences with either or both and an LRP.
> 
> It'll only be for a few home-subbed 4K discs, so it doesn't have to be a perfect user experience or anything; just perfect playback with subs in SRT format or muxed into an MKV, etc.


I literally just landed a Zidoo Z1000 Pro yesterday to play local files from my NAS instead of using ATV. I've run straight into an issue though with trying to get it to play files via wifi, which my ATV had no issues with. It can't play 4K ripped files smoothly at the moment. I may have to try it with LAN, although the 2 LAN connections in my rack are already taken up.


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## Naiera

I thank you all for the recs. I'll be using a wired connection if I manage to score a cheap one and find a drive that reads 4K discs.


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## OzHDHT

I've just now had to kludge up an extra wired connection in my rack by adding in a spare mini switch I had so I didn't have to 'steal' a LAN from another device. That instantly fixed the issue. If the wifi capability is that poor next to ATV, I'm a bit dissapointed, it will definitely affect some people's installs. Apart from that I'm thinking of setting the customisable output modes to better match the LRP's expected input, such as the Zidoo advice to use 4:2:0 10 Bit with 4K HDR 50/60Hz and 4:4:4 10 bit on 4K 23-30Hz, which doesn't mirror the LRP's setup.


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## Clark Burk

OzHDHT said:


> I literally just landed a Zidoo Z1000 Pro yesterday to play local files from my NAS instead of using ATV. I've run straight into an issue though with trying to get it to play files via wifi, which my ATV had no issues with. It can't play 4K ripped files smoothly at the moment. I may have to try it with LAN, although the 2 LAN connections in my rack are already taken up.


You should be ok with LAN. I too had trouble getting many 4k files to play smoothly over wi-fi. I thought wi-fi 6 would have plenty of speed to handle a 120 Mb/s data stream but apparently not. What’s weird is I measure the wi-fi stream speed to be about 400-500 Mb/s?


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## Javs

Ive also found its better to serve files on NFS rather than SMB.


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## OzHDHT

Clark Burk said:


> You should be ok with LAN. I too had trouble getting many 4k files to play smoothly over wi-fi. I thought wi-fi 6 would have plenty of speed to handle a 120 Mb/s data stream but apparently not. What’s weird is I measure the wi-fi stream speed to be about 400-500 Mb/s?


Yeah it definitely falls apart compared to the ATV in 4K wifi playback. I've got an AP (Ubiquity UAP _FlexHD_ ) in my equipment space, adjacent to the rack. That AP has a stack of throughput and is connected right to the main switch as it's all housed in the same place.



Javs said:


> Ive also found its better to serve files on NFS rather than SMB.


I was trying to get the Zidoo to see my NAS which also operates on NFS, but can only see it's IP in NFS mode.

Edit: adjusted a couple of NFS settings in my DS720+ and got the Zidoo to see everything. I decided to do a test with the same file via wifi to see if NFS got it playing smoothly. Unfortunately it was just as bad and crawling along, if not stopping the way it was with SMB and wifi. On the LAN there's no dramas with SMB, so I'll keep using it.


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## PeterLarsson

I still have problems - I might sens a Mail to Jim/lumagen Support.

i have tried everything and started all over again.
My main problem is that it is impossible to get a perfect fit on my 2.35 screen. Set the screen perfect for 2.35 with a 2.35 input. Fits 100%. However when watching 16:9 - the picture is too out zoomed- meaning spills the picture a couple cm om the top and on the bottom. Seems like the 2.35 output varys a bit and changes everytime.

I obviously must do something wrong- the question is what…

Hope someone can help me. Thanks.


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I still have problems - I might sens a Mail to Jim/lumagen Support.
> 
> i have tried everything and started all over again.
> My main problem is that it is impossible to get a perfect fit on my 2.35 screen. Set the screen perfect for 2.35 with a 2.35 input. Fits 100%. However when watching 16:9 - the picture is too out zoomed- meaning spills the picture a couple cm om the top and on the bottom. Seems like the 2.35 output varys a bit and changes everytime.
> 
> I obviously must do something wrong- the question is what…
> 
> Hope someone can help me. Thanks.


Do you have scale bias set to off? It's recommended in the Lumagen guide for 2:35 screen without a lens, but the manual says this prevents scaling happening if the ratio is close to no scaling required. I imagine this might be the reason why it changes a little between aspects - I think 12% top / bottom might not be the exact numbers required for 2.35:1, but with scale bias set to off it will fudge it so 2.35:1 doesn't have any scaling applied, but then 16:9 would actually be shrunk by exactly the 12% top / bottom as they are not close. I don't use a 2.35:1 fixed screen, but I did have a play last night and adjusting the scale bias setting did have a small effect on how tall the scope image was. It was quite a small difference though.
Maybe see if changing scale bias setting improves matters for you. Might be worth a try.


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## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Do you have scale bias set to off? It's recommended in the Lumagen guide for 2:35 screen without a lens, but the manual says this prevents scaling happening if the ratio is close to no scaling required. I imagine this might be the reason why it changes a little between aspects - I think 12% top / bottom might not be the exact numbers required for 2.35:1, but with scale bias set to off it will fudge it so 2.35:1 doesn't have any scaling applied, but then 16:9 would actually be shrunk by exactly the 12% top / bottom as they are not close. I don't use a 2.35:1 fixed screen, but I did have a play last night and adjusting the scale bias setting did have a small effect on how tall the scope image was. It was quite a small difference though.
> Maybe see if changing scale bias setting improves matters for you. Might be worth a try.


Sounds like what I really want and keep the 16:9 on the exact same top and bottom as 2.35.
Thanks!

Changed from Normal to Off. Hope it helps 😊


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Sounds like what I really want and keep the 16:9 on the exact same top and bottom as 2.35.
> Thanks!
> 
> Changed from Normal to Off. Hope it helps 😊


Note that setting it to off means that you will have some small amount of scaling applied to 2.35:1, which you may prefer to avoid. I'm not sure if it's possible to calculate closer values than 12%. I >think< it maybe should be 12.17% but I'm not 100% sure, I don't have a fixed scope screen myself.

It might be worth checking your screen area really is 2.35:1 exactly, too. It might not be... Or it might not be all useable.

Sometimes the projector angle with the screen can change the useable ratio of the screen (because the frame of the screen makes a shadow on an edge when the projector is offset above the screen). You could check that by projecting a full screen image that is oversize slightly and measuring exactly what your useable screen image dimension is. Width divided by height will give you the ratio.


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## jrp

PeterLarsson said:


> Sounds like what I really want and keep the 16:9 on the exact same top and bottom as 2.35.
> Thanks!
> 
> Changed from Normal to Off. Hope it helps 😊


If you have a 2.35 screen and set up for 2.35, content that is 2.40 will have small black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. If you have a 2.40 screen and setup for 2.40, content that is 2.35 will overshoot above and below slightly since 2.35 content has more active lines.

Scale bias off will not resolve this.

You can use the Output->Styles->Style0->Aspect Ratio->Output Aspect Per Input Aspect feature to mitigate this difference in 2.35 versus 2.40 source content. For example if you have a 2.35 screen, setup normally for a 2.35 output aspect ratio using Single Output Aspect mode. Then enter the Output Aspect Per Input Aspect menu. Up arrow until you are selecting 2.40 in the left entry, which is for content aspect in that menu, press OK to enable changing the output aspect, and then enter 240 as the output aspect for the selected 2.40 source content. Press OK to accept, and then, as I recall, the menu says to press EXIT to complete.

This should get you pretty close to 2.40 content filling the height of the screen, but you might need to adjust the output aspect in this menu a bit to get the right amount of overscan. Note that you are vertically stretching 2.40 content a bit, but this is only 0.98% and not noticeable for video content.

=====

If you want to be precise and have square pixels remain square, alternately with a 2.35 screen you can zoom 2.40 content, selected as 2.40 source aspect, to fill the height of the screen. You will have pixels to the left and right of the screen edges. Then with 2.35 content use the Style0->Mask/Shrink->Mask to mask pixels top/bottom/left/right until you have the optimal amount of overscan. Press OK to accept your changes. This preserves square pixels, but you are masking away about 0.49% of the pixels on each edge for 2.35 content. This small amount should not be an issue for most content.

=====

Once you have it where you want it, do a Save.


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## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Note that setting it to off means that you will have some small amount of scaling applied to 2.35:1, which you may prefer to avoid. I'm not sure if it's possible to calculate closer values than 12%. I >think< it maybe should be 12.17% but I'm not 100% sure, I don't have a fixed scope screen myself.
> 
> It might be worth checking your screen area really is 2.35:1 exactly, too. It might not be... Or it might not be all useable.
> 
> Sometimes the projector angle with the screen can change the useable ratio of the screen (because the frame of the screen makes a shadow on an edge when the projector is offset above the screen). You could check that by projecting a full screen image that is oversize slightly and measuring exactly what your useable screen image dimension is. Width divided by height will give you the ratio.


Thanks. According to Lumagen tech tip 16 setting scale bias to off will mean a 1:1 pixel map on 2.35 material - see below print screen from tech tip 16


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## PeterLarsson

jrp said:


> If you have a 2.35 screen and set up for 2.35, content that is 2.40 will have small black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. If you have a 2.40 screen and setup for 2.40, content that is 2.35 will overshoot above and below slightly since 2.35 content has more active lines.
> 
> Scale bias off will not resolve this.
> 
> You can use the Output->Styles->Style0->Aspect Ratio->Output Aspect Per Input Aspect feature to mitigate this difference in 2.35 versus 2.40 source content. For example if you have a 2.35 screen, setup normally for a 2.35 output aspect ratio using Single Output Aspect mode. Then enter the Output Aspect Per Input Aspect menu. Up arrow until you are selecting 2.40 in the left entry, which is for content aspect in that menu, press OK to enable changing the output aspect, and then enter 240 as the output aspect for the selected 2.40 source content. Press OK to accept, and then, as I recall, the menu says to press EXIT to complete.
> 
> This should get you pretty close to 2.40 content filling the height of the screen, but you might need to adjust the output aspect in this menu a bit to get the right amount of overscan. Note that you are vertically stretching 2.40 content a bit, but this is only 0.98% and not noticeable for video content.
> 
> =====
> 
> If you want to be precise and have square pixels remain square, alternately with a 2.35 screen you can zoom 2.40 content, selected as 2.40 source aspect, to fill the height of the screen. You will have pixels to the left and right of the screen edges. Then with 2.35 content use the Style0->Mask/Shrink->Mask to mask pixels top/bottom/left/right until you have the optimal amount of overscan. Press OK to accept your changes. This preserves square pixels, but you are masking away about 0.49% of the pixels on each edge for 2.35 content. This small amount should not be an issue for most content.
> 
> =====
> 
> Once you have it where you want it, do a Save.


Fantastic Jim - Thanks a lot. i will opt for jour last option actually. I was 100% convinced that setting the output to 2.35 was outputting 2.40, 2.39 and so forth to 2.35 and keep the same height for 16:9 - but then I understand that the system is not really that automatic.

I will try to avhieve the option two- thanks again.


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Thanks. According to Lumagen tech tip 16 setting scale bias to off will mean a 1:1 pixel map on 2.35 material - see below print screen from tech tip 16


Scale bias = off I believe means that yes, your 2.35:1 passes through with no scaling. Should be around 1634 pixels vertically used.

I'm not 100% sure what happens to 16:9, maybe @jrp can clarify. I >think< 16:9 gets scaled by exactly 12% top and bottom, 24% total. It's only a small difference I think, 1641 pixels, so not of the scale of issue you were seeing.



PeterLarsson said:


> Fantastic Jim - Thanks a lot. i will opt for jour last option actually. I was 100% convinced that setting the output to 2.35 was outputting 2.40, 2.39 and so forth to 2.35 and keep the same height for 16:9 - but then I understand that the system is not really that automatic.
> 
> I will try to avhieve the option two- thanks again.


I assumed you were actually watching 2.35:1 content and not 2.4... that's why I asked if you had any test patterns to look at  Of course 2.4:1 will have black bars within a 2.35:1 screen, that's what it is. Jim's provided some options to deal with it.


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## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Scale bias = off I believe means that yes, your 2.35:1 passes through with no scaling. Should be around 1634 pixels vertically used.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure what happens to 16:9, maybe @jrp can clarify. I >think< 16:9 gets scaled by exactly 12% top and bottom, 24% total. It's only a small difference I think, 1641 pixels, so not of the scale of issue you were seeing.
> 
> 
> I assumed you were actually watching 2.35:1 content and not 2.4... that's why I asked if you had any test patterns to look at  Of course 2.4:1 will have black bars within a 2.35:1 screen, that's what it is. Jim's provided some options to deal with it.


What I didnt understood was the the 2.4 is "untouched" and shows like 2.4 and not converted in to 2.35. Since I have chosen 2.35 as the output I was convinced that 2.35, 2.39 and 2.40 was shown as 2.35. meaning 2.39 and 2.40 scaled to fit the screen as 2.20 and 1.78 actually. I definitely learned something new now


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> What I didnt understood was the the 2.4 is "untouched" and shows like 2.4 and not converted in to 2.35. Since I have chosen 2.35 as the output I was convinced that 2.35, 2.39 and 2.40 was shown as 2.35. meaning 2.39 and 2.40 scaled to fit the screen as 2.20 and 1.78 actually. I definitely learned something new now


I noticed a couple of things while playing with this to satisfy myself about how it worked:

1) My 2.4 aspect didn't have the Letterbox Control Zoom set, which is fine for me as I don't use the aspect zoom stuff, but it would be an issue if yours was set like that. This prevents the aspect change from zooming 2.4 to fill 2.35. I don't know if this is something I set myself at some point, or if it is a default. (as I say I don't use the zooming, so this setting doesn't affect me). 2.35 did have it set on my unit. You might want to have a look at that - if it's not set then when you press 2.4 on the remote or autoaspect detects 2.4 it won't zoom it to fill a 2.35 frame. This seemed to do the trick with scale bias = Normal (ie I think it does what you want)









2)I'm not totally convinced there isn't some bug in the handling of 2.4 with scale bias = off and Zoom enabled, might need to check that with @jrp . I think I might have been seeing what you describe with a gap along the bottom edge only of the image. Given the 2.35 guide without lens suggests to set scale bias = off, it's possible this is a source of some issue, but I'm not sure, I don't usually use these settings but it did seem to be behaving a bit unusually.

3) If you want this to be automated, you'd need to use auto-aspect (I don't know if you do that or not). Auto aspect does distinguish between 2.35 and 2.4, though because they are close in my experience some content can ocassionally be a bit twitchy between the two. I don't think there is any native support for other ratios between 2.35 and 2.4, so if you were wanting to try and scale eg something that was 2.39 very precisely you'd have to do something custom there.


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## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> I noticed a couple of things while playing with this to satisfy myself about how it worked:
> 
> 1) My 2.4 aspect didn't have the Letterbox Control Zoom set, which is fine for me as I don't use the aspect zoom stuff, but it would be an issue if yours was set like that. This prevents the aspect change from zooming 2.4 to fill 2.35. I don't know if this is something I set myself at some point, or if it is a default. (as I say I don't use the zooming, so this setting doesn't affect me). 2.35 did have it set on my unit. You might want to have a look at that - if it's not set then when you press 2.4 on the remote or autoaspect detects 2.4 it won't zoom it to fill a 2.35 frame. This seemed to do the trick with scale bias = Normal (ie I think it does what you want)
> View attachment 3336360
> 
> 
> 2)I'm not totally convinced there isn't some bug in the handling of 2.4 with scale bias = off and Zoom enabled, might need to check that with @jrp . I think I might have been seeing what you describe with a gap along the bottom edge only of the image. Given the 2.35 guide without lens suggests to set scale bias = off, it's possible this is a source of some issue, but I'm not sure, I don't usually use these settings but it did seem to be behaving a bit unusually.
> 
> 3) If you want this to be automated, you'd need to use auto-aspect (I don't know if you do that or not). Auto aspect does distinguish between 2.35 and 2.4, though because they are close in my experience some content can ocassionally be a bit twitchy between the two. I don't think there is any native support for other ratios between 2.35 and 2.4, so if you were wanting to try and scale eg something that was 2.39 very precisely you'd have to do something custom there.


I will def have look at my setting there - my Lumagen was preset by Gordon however some changes I have done along the road so to speak.

I am using auto aspect, and actually when I trimmed my new projector I really started to look into this. I was under the impression that if setting 2.35 and auto aspect Lumagen would automatically scale 2.4 to fit 2.35. That seem not to be the case and also as you said - not leaving a tine black bar on the top and bottom, only doubles sized black bar at the bottom.


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## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> I will def have look at my setting there - my Lumagen was preset by Gordon however some changes I have done along the road so to speak.
> 
> I am using auto aspect, and actually when I trimmed my new projector I really started to look into this. I was under the impression that if setting 2.35 and auto aspect Lumagen would automatically scale 2.4 to fit 2.35. That seem not to be the case and also as you said - not leaving a tine black bar on the top and bottom, only doubles sized black bar at the bottom.


There is a merge functionality within the auto aspect menu. You can chose to merge 2.35 to 2.40 and vice versa.


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## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> I will def have look at my setting there - my Lumagen was preset by Gordon however some changes I have done along the road so to speak.
> 
> I am using auto aspect, and actually when I trimmed my new projector I really started to look into this. I was under the impression that if setting 2.35 and auto aspect Lumagen would automatically scale 2.4 to fit 2.35. That seem not to be the case and also as you said - not leaving a tine black bar on the top and bottom, only doubles sized black bar at the bottom.


It will be interesting to know what your settings are. Note you have to be actually in the 2.4 aspect ratio to check the setting of the Lbox control; as it stores the setting per aspect ratio and I think you can only get to them when you have selected the appropriate AR.

I checked the factory defaults, and they do seem a little odd, though I'm sure there is some reason for it. Factory default is Zoom for 2.35 and off for 2.4, so mine was at default settings. 

I do think the scale bias=off bigger gap at the bottom may represent a bug (or at least a mis-understanding on my part of how it is supposed to work), I emailed support my recipe that I think gives a wrong result. 



EVH78 said:


> There is a merge functionality within the auto aspect menu. You can chose to merge 2.35 to 2.40 and vice versa.


Yes, that's another reason why 2.35 and 2.4 might show no difference and definitely worth checking. I've enabled this in the past to get around some of the twitchiness that some content seemed to induce around 2.35 and 2.4 switching back and forth.


----------



## PeterLarsson

EVH78 said:


> There is a merge functionality within the auto aspect menu. You can chose to merge 2.35 to 2.40 and vice versa.


Yes that was exactly what I thought but obvisouly it doesnt work.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> Yes that was exactly what I thought but obvisouly it doesnt work.


It doesn't do what you are thinking (I think!). It allows you to force one of those ARs to be detected as the other. Net effect is all 2.35 and 2.4 content gets detected as either 2.35 or 2.4 (depending on what you choose). I used to choose to detect all 2.35 as 2.4, which would mean that I'd crop a little of the top and bottom edge of 2.35, but it meant I didn't see it twitch between 2.35 and 2.4 sometimes (I have electric masks on my screen that move and make a bit of a noise).


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> It doesn't do what you are thinking (I think!). It allows you to force one of those ARs to be detected as the other. Net effect is all 2.35 and 2.4 content gets detected as either 2.35 or 2.4 (depending on what you choose). I used to choose to detect all 2.35 as 2.4, which would mean that I'd crop a little of the top and bottom edge of 2.35, but it meant I didn't see it twitch between 2.35 and 2.4 sometimes (I have electric masks on my screen that move and make a bit of a noise).


So what i have to do is to change my aspect to 2.4 and then chose LB zoom and then switch back to 2.35 and then auto aspect Will scale 2.4 to 2.35? Have I understod corectly?


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> So what i have to do is to change my aspect to 2.4 and then chose LB zoom and then switch back to 2.35 and then auto aspect Will scale 2.4 to 2.35? Have I understod corectly?


I think so LBOX control = zoom in the menu I showed, with the added note that I >think< there may be some odd interaction with scale bias = off, so I'd try this with scale bias = off and scale bias = auto. On my unit it only works as I expect with scale bias = auto (I believe). Need @jrp to comment on that.


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> I think so LBOX control = zoom in the menu I showed, with the added note that I >think< there may be some odd interaction with scale bias = off, so I'd try this with scale bias = off and scale bias = auto. On my unit it only works as I expect with scale bias = auto (I believe). Need @jrp to comment on that.


It says that Lbox zoom is not used since Auto aspect enabled. This lade me egen more confused.
I thing i neee to use JPRs suggestion to zoom into 2.4 and mask om each side when 2.35.


----------



## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> It says that Lbox zoom is not used since Auto aspect enabled. This lade me egen more confused.
> I thing i neee to use JPRs suggestion to zoom into 2.4 and mask om each side when 2.35.


What´s the info in the auto aspect menu?


----------



## PeterLarsson

EVH78 said:


> What´s the info in the auto aspect menu?












So why is not 2.40 merged and scale ro fit 2.35 screen!


----------



## bobof

With merge set it means that 2.4 will be detected as 2.35. You need to turn that off if you want it to SCALE 2.4 to fill the vertical height of your 2.35 screen.


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> With merge set it means that 2.4 will be detected as 2.35. You need to turn that off if you want it to SCALE 2.4 to fill the vertical height of your 2.35 screen.


Ok, something new in learning every day .

so I put that to off now and now I have actually zoom 2.4 till the upper and lower part of screen and then adjust 2.35 to blank out the spill on the left and right side.

I actually though that choosing auto aspect and 2.35 would make 2.35, 2.39 and 2.40 to be scaled to 2.35, now I have learned that it is not the case and I manually have to fix this now. The 2.4 leaves a black bar only below and NOT an equal black bar above and below (like we talked about earlier).


----------



## EVH78

PeterLarsson said:


> The 2.4 leaves a black bar only below and an equal black bar above and below (like we talked about earlier).


The bars above and below should be fitted now correctly by the projectors zoom.

Everything else is aspect or shrinking in my setup.


----------



## bearcat2002

This is where electronic masking screens are king.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PeterLarsson

To try to summarize and see if I have gotten it correct


I have a 2.35 screen and would like to get 2.39 and 2.40 automatically scaled to 2.35. That seem not possible. I thought by using merge 2.35/2.40 that this was exactly the function. Conclusion: This is not possible
The only way to fully utilize my 2.35 screen is to not merge 2.35/2.40 to 2.35 (I don't understand the point of that function to be honest) and zoom 2.4 so much that is fills the screen and then mask everything on all four directions in 2.35 and on both sides for 2.35 and 1.78 top and down
If I set a perfect 2.35 alignment but still 16:9 spill over both on the top and bottom, I really don't understand since I have set 2.35 
What is Scale Bias doing in all this? In case of point no 2 - does that mean that it will leave 2.35, 2.39 and 2.40 untouched and no scaling at all?

This is a bit of a jungle for me - I thought it was a little bit more automatic handling once I put in screen size and also what sizes should merge. I think a deep dive manual would be needed to understand how the different angles of screen size and aspect ratio fits together.


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> To try to summarize and see if I have gotten it correct
> 
> 
> I have a 2.35 screen and would like to get 2.39 and 2.40 automatically scaled to 2.35. That seem not possible. I thought by using merge 2.35/2.40 that this was exactly the function. Conclusion: This is not possible
> The only way to fully utilize my 2.35 screen is to not merge 2.35/2.40 to 2.35 (I don't understand the point of that function to be honest) and zoom 2.4 so much that is fills the screen and then mask everything on all four directions in 2.35 and on both sides for 2.35 and 1.78 top and down
> If I set a perfect 2.35 alignment but still 16:9 spill over both on the top and bottom, I really don't understand since I have set 2.35
> What is Scale Bias doing in all this? In case of point no 2 - does that mean that it will leave 2.35, 2.39 and 2.40 untouched and no scaling at all?
> 
> This is a bit of a jungle for me - I thought it was a little bit more automatic handling once I put in screen size and also what sizes should merge. I think a deep dive manual would be needed to understand how the different angles of screen size and aspect ratio fits together.


Might be best to discuss with either Gordon or Lumagen support. I don't think you have it correct. You should be able to make it do automatic scaling of 2.4:1 content into 2.35:1 screen. Whether in practice it's a good idea is another question (the merge stuff is specifically to work around something that happens with content that can make it flip back and forth between 2.4 and 2.35 settings, which can be distracting).

I do think the scale bias = off setting might have a bit of a bug in it which causes the image to be offset from the centre of the screen. It happens a tiny amount with 2.35, but becomes very obvious with 2.4. Until that's fixed (assuming I'm not mistaken, which is quite possible!), I think if you set scale bias = normal it should be better behaved for you.


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*Production candidate 090822- Posted 091922 * 
Minor fpga performance improvements. 
Added auto aspect detection for 2.10 input aspect if extended aspects are enabled. 
Please continue sending your detailed feedback to [email protected]
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


----------



## AmigoHD

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *Production candidate 090822- Posted 091922 *


With that release the Lumagen always detects a 2.40:1 ratio while playing movies on HTPC/KODI/madVR, even if those are 1.78:1. Auto Aspect also only detects 2.40:1. Have to manually press 16:9 to get it right. With Oppo and K all is fine. Strange. Worked on previous beta fw.


----------



## Kris Deering

AmigoHD said:


> With that release the Lumagen always detects a 2.40:1 ratio while playing movies on HTPC/KODI/madVR, even if those are 1.78:1. Auto Aspect also only detects 2.40:1. Have to manually press 16:9 to get it right. With Oppo and K all is fine. Strange. Worked on previous beta fw.


In auto aspect what are you using for detection: Image, HDMI or both? I'm curious if there is something in the EDID coming from your HTPC that is tripping it up. Make sure to report to [email protected]


----------



## AmigoHD

Kris Deering said:


> In auto aspect what are you using for detection: Image, HDMI or both? I'm curious if there is something in the EDID coming from your HTPC that is tripping it up. Make sure to report to [email protected]


Good point! Indeed it is set to Image+HDMI since beginning. I'll try with Image only tonight. Otherwise I will report to Lumagen.


----------



## davidmm7

Hello everyone,

I have a question about the best setup for my future home theater.
I’ll get the following:

JVC NZ7
Lumagen Radiance Pro
Panasonic UB9004 BR Player
PS5
Apple TV
Yamaha RX-A8A

We planned to connect everything like this:

PS5, Panasonic, Apple In to Lumagen
Lumagen Audio Out to Yamaha
Lumagen Picture Out to JVC

The problem is the Lumagen doesn’t support 4k/120 for gaming and probably adds some input lag.
My question is whats the best way to get full potential out of my PS5 (maybe even gaming PC).

I can think of two solutions: 
- setup like above but I connect the PS5 directly to the AVR and put another cable from the AVR to the JVC (leaving out the Lumagen for the PS5). 
Or
- Connect Panasonic, Apple TV to Lumagen. Lumagen Picture + Audio Out to AVR. PS5 directly to AVR. 1 cable from AVR to JVC Projector.

Would the step from Lumagen to AVR to JVC influence PQ?
Or do you guys have any other recommendations to get the best possible PQ + gaming frames out of everything?


----------



## Naiera

The projector doesn't support 120Hz.


----------



## fatherom

Naiera said:


> The projector doesn't support 120Hz.





https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/jvc-dla-nz7



The DLA-NZ7 features a solid selection of connections, including two HDMI 2.1s, an ethernet socket, 3.5mm trigger connector, 3D synchronisation connector and a USB port for updating the system. The HDMI connectors are rated at 48Gbps, *and the projector can handle **4K 120Hz* and 8K 60Hz signals, making it a tempting choice for gamers.


----------



## bosler.bruce

firmware update, how in the hell do you do it?

I downloaded the file. On that page it says a tech tip is included with each download. All I get is an .exe file. When I run it the only options I get are to use a com port, there is no USB option .

I also tried to run the config program to backup my 5244 before I did the update but it also only has a com option.

I suppose it is something simple but it would help if they would include some instructions.... thanks


----------



## bobof

bosler.bruce said:


> firmware update, how in the hell do you do it?
> 
> I downloaded the file. On that page it says a tech tip is included with each download. All I get is an .exe file. When I run it the only options I get are to use a com port, there is no USB option .
> 
> I also tried to run the config program to backup my 5244 before I did the update but it also only has a com option.
> 
> I suppose it is something simple but it would help if they would include some instructions.... thanks


This often gets packaged with the updates, but I see it hasn't been recently:


http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf


----------



## bosler.bruce

bobof said:


> This often gets packaged with the updates, but I see it hasn't been recently:
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_UpdatingTheSoftware_012016.pdf


ah, I now see the Lumagen has a built in USB to serial converter so you still use a com port ..... that helps.... thank you


----------



## sunnya23

Mike_WI said:


> Lumagen
> 
> 
> 
> *Production candidate 090822- Posted 091922 *
> Minor fpga performance improvements.
> Added auto aspect detection for 2.10 input aspect if extended aspects are enabled.
> Please continue sending your detailed feedback to [email protected]
> Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware.


I updated to this firmware last night. And I went to check The Midnight Sky, which is on Netflix and has an aspect ratio of 2.11:1. However, it defaulted to 2.00:1 AR with slight black bars top and bottom on my 2.35:1 scope screen. Is there any setting I need to enable to get auto aspect to detect the 2.10:1


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

bosler.bruce said:


> ah, I now see the Lumagen has a built in USB to serial converter so you still use a com port ..... that helps.... thank you


I use the USB cable, select COM3 and the highest speed baud rate.


----------



## Chris5

Different laptops pick different com ports, mine picks com6 so check first before hitting the update button


----------



## docrog

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> I use the USB cable, select COM3 and the highest speed baud rate.


Mine is COM4


----------



## audioguy

docrog said:


> Mine is Com4


As is mine.


----------



## Naiera

It’s not going to update if it doesn’t find the LRP 

I’ve had connection-issues using USB with both LRPs I’ve had, so I’ve gone back to the RS-232 cable. No issues yet. The 2123 I also have has had zero issues using USB.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> It’s not going to update if it doesn’t find the LRP
> 
> I’ve had connection-issues using USB with both LRPs I’ve had, so I’ve gone back to the RS-232 cable. No issues yet. The 2123 I also have has had zero issues using USB.


Both LRP's I've had have been absolutely fine over USB. Surprised it has been an issue for you.


----------



## Naiera

Perhaps me using Windows in Parallels on an old-ass MacBook Pro presents some unique compatibility issues with the LRP. Both times it's happened it gave me an error message upon finishing an autocal 3D LUT. No errors of the sort using RS-232, so I'll just continue using that. I was not trying to discourage others


----------



## EVH78

Naiera said:


> Perhaps me using Windows in Parallels on an old-ass MacBook Pro presents some unique compatibility issues with the LRP. Both times it's happened it gave me an error message upon finishing an autocal 3D LUT. No errors of the sort using RS-232, so I'll just continue using that. I was not trying to discourage others


I am doing firmware updates on a MacBookPro2014 with Parallels, no issues at all. Connects via USB to Com3 flawlessly. 
Tried my iMac i7 recently and no problems either. 
For Colourspace I use Bootcamp with Windows 10, so no experience with autocal 3D Luts on Parallels.
But maybe Bootcamp is an option?


----------



## Naiera

Using RS-232 is really not a problem.


----------



## audioguy

EVH78 said:


> I am doing firmware updates on a MacBookPro2014 with Parallels, no issues at all. Connects via USB to Com3 flawlessly.
> Tried my iMac i7 recently and no problems either.
> For Colourspace I use Bootcamp with Windows 10, so no experience with autocal 3D Luts on Parallels. But maybe Bootcamp is an option?


My PC (only used for updating Lumagen) has decided to lock me out. I have Windows running under Parallels on my MacBook but I'm not sure how to determine which port to use. I keep getting the following message and while I am familiar with the shut down/reboot option, I have no clue which port to use or how to find which one is correct.

And I have left a phone message with Lumagen.


----------



## Clark Burk

Just checking is the LRP powered on with the blue light lit on the front. I've done that a few times


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> Perhaps me using Windows in Parallels on an old-ass MacBook Pro presents some unique compatibility issues with the LRP. Both times it's happened it gave me an error message upon finishing an autocal 3D LUT. No errors of the sort using RS-232, so I'll just continue using that. I was not trying to discourage others


Yes, it's just very odd to have issues with interface type and not the other, as most people don't have native legacy RS232 ports on their computers (and definitely not on macs) so they're relying on a USB-serial adapter of some sort, which is exactly what the Radiance has built-in!  There are only a couple of major vendors of these really - FTDI (which is used in the Radiance) and Prolific. I'd imagine some kind of FTDI drivers issue would be the most likely cause.

With a virtualization solution there might be some additional complication because you usually have to explicitly connect devices to from the host machine to the guest OS, and sometimes those connections can be removed and need to be re-made if certain things happen.


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> My PC (only used for updating Lumagen) has decided to lock me out. I have Windows running under Parallels on my MacBook but I'm not sure how to determine which port to use. I keep getting the following message and while I am familiar with the shut down/reboot option, I have no clue which port to use or how to find which one is correct.
> 
> And I have left a phone message with Lumagen.
> View attachment 3337312


Look in Device Manager and see if you have a Ports (COM & LPT) category. If you do, open it up. Chances are unless you have other serial ports or serial adapters on your machine, the one in there is the correct one. This is what mine looks like:










Edit: Note that if you haven't got the drivers installed for the USB device, you may have an unidentified device instead. I think the link to the FTDI drivers is this:





VCP Drivers - FTDI







ftdichip.com


----------



## Naiera

bobof said:


> Yes, it's just very odd to have issues with interface type and not the other, as most people don't have native legacy RS232 ports on their computers (and definitely not on macs) so they're relying on a USB-serial adapter of some sort, which is exactly what the Radiance has built-in!


It's totes weird. I am, of course, using a converter, the origins of which I am not sure of. I more or less "inherited" some gear from a hi-fi store when they left the calibration business.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> It's totes weird. I am, of course, using a converter, the origins of which I am not sure of. I more or less "inherited" some gear from a hi-fi store when they left the calibration business.


As you say, weird, but it might just be you've got a good driver for the adapter installed, and whatever FTDI driver is on the system is funky, or maybe something else completely. In any case, I think the road to tears is paved with folk who've tried to use virtualization stuff for hardware related tasks like firmware updates. Talking to hardware is one of those things where often there is no substitute for being on as bog-standard a setup you can get as possible.


----------



## audioguy

bobof said:


> Look in Device Manager and see if you have a Ports (COM & LPT) category. If you do, open it up. Chances are unless you have other serial ports or serial adapters on your machine, the one in there is the correct one. This is what mine looks like:
> 
> View attachment 3337324
> 
> 
> Edit: Note that if you haven't got the drivers installed for the USB device, you may have an unidentified device instead. I think the link to the FTDI drivers is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VCP Drivers - FTDI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ftdichip.com


Thank you. I used another Mac with a single USB port and then did the rest and all is well. Update completed. 

I haven't done a firmware update in a long time. What improvement should I be looking for in the latest firmware


----------



## alv

How did you update on a Mac?


----------



## audioguy

alv said:


> How did you update on a Mac?


Run Windows 7 under Parallels on one sMac and Windows 11 on another Mac also using Parallels. Far better than any regular PC.


----------



## Naiera

bobof said:


> As you say, weird, but it might just be you've got a good driver for the adapter installed, and whatever FTDI driver is on the system is funky, or maybe something else completely. In any case, I think the road to tears is paved with folk who've tried to use virtualization stuff for hardware related tasks like firmware updates. Talking to hardware is one of those things where often there is no substitute for being on as bog-standard a setup you can get as possible.


Done several up and downgrades with no issues. Not afraid of that failing, using the RS-232 cable


----------



## Naiera

alv said:


> How did you update on a Mac?


Windows 10 via Parallels for me.


----------



## DigitalAV

FWIW if anyone's having problems with their LRP itself (e.g., I was experiencing a rare video drop every once in awhile but only with Roku using any input), this is my preferred method of updating my firmware -- zero drops since.

Obviously a pain for folks where it's not easy to unplug their sources, but here it is:

*Unplug power & all HDMI ports from the LRP and leave overnight
*Plug power and USB/RS232 in and turn on the LRP
*Confirm COM port in Windows Device Manager
*Open LRP update file but don't start yet
*Unplug power from LRP & wait 5 seconds
*Plug power back into LRP & then click start within 10 seconds, use default baud rate
*When update is finished, unplug LRP power
*Restore HDMI plugs before restoring power plug


----------



## SJHT

audioguy said:


> My PC (only used for updating Lumagen) has decided to lock me out. I have Windows running under Parallels on my MacBook but I'm not sure how to determine which port to use. I keep getting the following message and while I am familiar with the shut down/reboot option, I have no clue which port to use or how to find which one is correct.
> 
> And I have left a phone message with Lumagen.
> View attachment 3337312


I was doing a firmware update and accidentally brushed the usb connector which caused the update to hang. I had to pull the power from the Pro and do a force update. All went well after that. Will not do that again! SJ


----------



## davidmm7

davidmm7 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a question about the best setup for my future home theater.
> I’ll get the following:
> 
> JVC NZ7
> Lumagen Radiance Pro
> Panasonic UB9004 BR Player
> PS5
> Apple TV
> Yamaha RX-A8A
> 
> We planned to connect everything like this:
> 
> PS5, Panasonic, Apple In to Lumagen
> Lumagen Audio Out to Yamaha
> Lumagen Picture Out to JVC
> 
> The problem is the Lumagen doesn’t support 4k/120 for gaming and probably adds some input lag.
> My question is whats the best way to get full potential out of my PS5 (maybe even gaming PC).
> 
> I can think of two solutions:
> - setup like above but I connect the PS5 directly to the AVR and put another cable from the AVR to the JVC (leaving out the Lumagen for the PS5).
> Or
> - Connect Panasonic, Apple TV to Lumagen. Lumagen Picture + Audio Out to AVR. PS5 directly to AVR. 1 cable from AVR to JVC Projector.
> 
> Would the step from Lumagen to AVR to JVC influence PQ?
> Or do you guys have any other recommendations to get the best possible PQ + gaming frames out of everything?


Anyone?


----------



## NinjaTypeR

davidmm7 said:


> Anyone?


Either option will work. But you need to use one HDMI from Lumagen to AVR if you are passing both picture and sound. 

But to add to your confusion, you can also connect PS5 directly to projector and use ARC on the HDMI to return audio to the AVR.


----------



## audioguy

DigitalAV said:


> FWIW if anyone's having problems with their LRP itself (e.g., I was experiencing a rare video drop every once in awhile but only with Roku using any input), this is my preferred method of updating my firmware -- zero drops since.
> 
> Obviously a pain for folks where it's not easy to unplug their sources, but here it is:
> 
> *Unplug power & all HDMI ports from the LRP and leave overnight
> *Plug power and USB/RS232 in and turn on the LRP
> *Confirm COM port in Windows Device Manager
> *Open LRP update file but don't start yet
> **Unplug power from LRP & wait 5 seconds
> *Plug power back into LRP & then click start within 10 seconds,* use default baud rate
> *When update is finished, unplug LRP power
> *Restore HDMI plugs before restoring power plug


Unless I am missing something here, after you re-plug the LRP where highlighted above, you never actually power the LRP on, just re-plug it???


----------



## dlinsley

NinjaTypeR said:


> Either option will work. But you need to use one HDMI from Lumagen to AVR if you are passing both picture and sound.
> 
> But to add to your confusion, you can also connect PS5 directly to projector and use ARC on the HDMI to return audio to the AVR.


Very few projectors have ARC / eARC (JVC listed does not), so that would require more gadgets!



davidmm7 said:


> I can think of two solutions:
> - setup like above but I connect the PS5 directly to the AVR and put another cable from the AVR to the JVC (leaving out the Lumagen for the PS5).
> Or
> - Connect Panasonic, Apple TV to Lumagen. Lumagen Picture + Audio Out to AVR. PS5 directly to AVR. 1 cable from AVR to JVC Projector.


I'd test that the AVR doesn't alter the video to your eye, and then just do option 2. Less things to switch when changing which device you are using.


----------



## DigitalAV

audioguy said:


> Unless I am missing something here, after you re-plug the LRP where highlighted above, you never actually power the LRP on, just re-plug it???


Exactly right, you do not need to turn the LRP on before starting the update. The only reason to turn it on in the previous steps is to help confirm the COM port when plugged into a Windows PC via USB/RS232.


----------



## bearcat2002

I have a headless Mac mini that has boot camp on it that is running Jumpdesktop. All I use it for is to update my Radiance Pro via my iPhone. Slick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sunnya23

sunnya23 said:


> I updated to this firmware last night. And I went to check The Midnight Sky, which is on Netflix and has an aspect ratio of 2.11:1. However, it defaulted to 2.00:1 AR with slight black bars top and bottom on my 2.35:1 scope screen. Is there any setting I need to enable to get auto aspect to detect the 2.10:1


I went ahead and checked Triple Frontier on Netflix as well. Another 2.11:1 AR film. Similar results. I can't get the 2.10:1 AR to trigger, Auto Aspect defaults to 2.00:1


----------



## Kris Deering

There is an update that is coming very soon with the AR fix. I tested it last night and it worked with 2.1 (after you enable extended aspects) but there was a bug with inputs not in use. 

For the latest on the website you have to enable extended aspects to have 2.1 work. In the same menu you find auto aspect (Input - Other - Aspects) it is the next option down under auto aspect. You have to change aspect to extended to enable 2.1.


----------



## Clark Burk

DigitalAV said:


> Exactly right, you do not need to turn the LRP on before starting the update. The only reason to turn it on in the previous steps is to help confirm the COM port when plugged into a Windows PC via USB/RS232.


That’s strange because I never could get the firmware to update without having the LRP on. I’d hit the start get the error then notice the red light on. I then turned on the LRP then hit start and everything worked like it was supposed to.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

dlinsley said:


> Very few projectors have ARC / eARC (JVC listed does not), so that would require more gadgets!


My bad. I don’t know why I remembered JVC implemented ARC on the NZ line.


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> That’s strange because I never could get the firmware to update without having the LRP on. I’d hit the start get the error then notice the red light on. I then turned on the LRP then hit start and everything worked like it was supposed to.


The bootloader mode update is different. There is a small window as you apply power to the input jack when it is receptive to an update happening without it being "powered on". After the window has closed, you have to be powered up to update.


----------



## graticular

I am trying to change the 2.35/2.40 -> 2.40 option from 2.40 to 'No' on my 5244. I have tried this several times without success using the Save button on the remote, or the save in the menu. Each time it has reverted back to 2.40. Anyone know what I am doing wrong, or have the same issue? This is the previous beta release, not the latest one.


----------



## DigitalAV

I'm pretty disappointed with 1080p > 4k scaling and wondering if perhaps I'm missing something.

Firmware: Production candidate 090822

Sources: Roku, AppleTV 4k, Nvidia Shield

Sharpening: NO

Darbee: tried both NO and HD 25

I wanted to play some Disney+ shows in 4k SDR. Disney+ doesn't push a 4k stream unless you have HDR enabled. AppleTV 4k set to 4k SDR unfortunately has a lipsync issue I can't fix, so I decided to try my Nvidia Shield set to output 1080p/24 and my Lumagen is set to scale 1080p/24 to 4k/24-422. Immediately the Shield home screen looked soft/blurry. I would've thought it would be much better, maybe not as detailed but certainly more crisp. As mentioned, both sharpening and Darbee are turned off (and I tried Darbee at HD 25 just to see if that helped, not really).

Thanks in advance for any ideas or comments. Are folks here happy or dissatisfied with 1080p to 4k scaling post-pipeline update?


----------



## audioguy

In my view, 1080P to 4K scaling is stunning - and often difficult to tell the difference between up-scaled and native 4K. I can't tell how it is implemented in my Lumagen as I didn't do the setup and calibration (no clue how), but in my room, on my screen, with my projector at my seating distance, it is superb !!


----------



## graticular

DigitalAV said:


> I'm pretty disappointed with 1080p > 4k scaling and wondering if perhaps I'm missing something.
> 
> Firmware: Production candidate 090822
> 
> Sources: Roku, AppleTV 4k, Nvidia Shield
> 
> Sharpening: NO
> 
> Darbee: tried both NO and HD 25
> 
> I wanted to play some Disney+ shows in 4k SDR. Disney+ doesn't push a 4k stream unless you have HDR enabled. AppleTV 4k set to 4k SDR unfortunately has a lipsync issue I can't fix, so I decided to try my Nvidia Shield set to output 1080p/24 and my Lumagen is set to scale 1080p/24 to 4k/24-422. Immediately the Shield home screen looked soft/blurry. I would've thought it would be much better, maybe not as detailed but certainly more crisp. As mentioned, both sharpening and Darbee are turned off (and I tried Darbee at HD 25 just to see if that helped, not really).
> 
> Thanks in advance for any ideas or comments. Are folks here happy or dissatisfied with 1080p to 4k scaling post-pipeline update?


I am not very knowledgeable but Gordon set up a separate memory set up for HD on Apple TV 4K, and I am very pleased with the result. Darbee is set to 35 and sharpening to 2. If you have a separate memory you could adjust the lipsync on the lumagen:
"If you have sources that have a different lip-sync timing, you can reduce, or lengthen, the video delay in the Pro for each source, and you can even use the memories (MEMA to MEMD) to have multiple settings for a specific source if different content providers have different lip-sync delays."


----------



## Craig Peer

audioguy said:


> In my view, 1080P to 4K scaling is stunning - and often difficult to tell the difference between up-scaled and native 4K. I can't tell how it is implemented in my Lumagen as I didn't do the setup and calibration (no clue how), but in my room, on my screen, with my projector at my seating distance, it is superb !!


Same here, but I don't use any streaming devices. Only discs or my Zappiti NEO. I have guests that think 1080p is 4k it looks so good at times.


----------



## DigitalAV

Craig Peer said:


> Same here, but I don't use any streaming devices. Only discs or my Zappiti NEO. I have guests that think 1080p is 4k it looks so good at times.


Do you use any sharpening or Darbee (or anything else you think I might be missing)?


----------



## Craig Peer

DigitalAV said:


> Do you use any sharpening or Darbee (or anything else you think I might be missing)?


I do use sharpening - 2 I believe. I do not use Darbee - I think it adds noise myself.

Correction - I have these sharpening notes I got from Paul ( @woofer ) which I think are my current settings ( at least I tried them - might have backed off a little - need to check ) - 

HDR/4K

SHARPENING....H ( 5) V (4) SENS (NORMAL)

SDR

SHARPENING H (4) V (3) SENS (HIGH)


----------



## DigitalAV

Craig Peer said:


> I do use sharpening - 2 I believe. I do not use Darbee - I think it adds noise myself.
> 
> Correction - I have these sharpening notes I got from Paul ( @woofer ) which I think are my current settings ( at least I tried them - might have backed off a little - need to check ) -
> 
> HDR/4K
> 
> SHARPENING....H ( 5) V (4) SENS (NORMAL)
> 
> SDR
> 
> SHARPENING H (4) V (3) SENS (HIGH)


Thanks very much! I forgot to mention I have an Epson shifter, and turning the Image Preset down did help a little bit (I already had it pretty low). The odd thing is that my Oppo 203 seems to do a better job scaling to 4k which really surprises me. Granted, I'm probably being overly critical looking at home/menu screens, but it's just a bit surprising as that's the first thing you notice.


----------



## Craig Peer

DigitalAV said:


> Thanks very much! I forgot to mention I have an Epson shifter, and turning the Image Preset down did help a little bit (I already had it pretty low). The odd thing is that my Oppo 203 seems to do a better job scaling to 4k which really surprises me. Granted, I'm probably being overly critical looking at home/menu screens, but it's just a bit surprising as that's the first thing you notice.


I have an RS4500 - native 4K projector, which may make a difference vs a pixel shifter.


----------



## raullopez1234

DigitalAV said:


> I'm pretty disappointed with 1080p > 4k scaling and wondering if perhaps I'm missing something.
> 
> Firmware: Production candidate 090822
> 
> Sources: Roku, AppleTV 4k, Nvidia Shield
> 
> Sharpening: NO
> 
> Darbee: tried both NO and HD 25
> 
> I wanted to play some Disney+ shows in 4k SDR. Disney+ doesn't push a 4k stream unless you have HDR enabled. AppleTV 4k set to 4k SDR unfortunately has a lipsync issue I can't fix, so I decided to try my Nvidia Shield set to output 1080p/24 and my Lumagen is set to scale 1080p/24 to 4k/24-422. Immediately the Shield home screen looked soft/blurry. I would've thought it would be much better, maybe not as detailed but certainly more crisp. As mentioned, both sharpening and Darbee are turned off (and I tried Darbee at HD 25 just to see if that helped, not really).
> 
> Thanks in advance for any ideas or comments. Are folks here happy or dissatisfied with 1080p to 4k scaling post-pipeline update?


Add one to the list of not satisfied with the 1080p to 4k conversation on the lumagen. I currently have my Panasonic doing the up conversation and it does a better job . One conundrum that I find strange is that without the lumagen in the chain the Panasonic up conversation didn't look as good as having the lumagen in the chain. Can someone who is satisfied with the upconversion post their settings.


----------



## Naiera

Artificial sharpness is the devil's plaything 🙁


----------



## bobof

DigitalAV said:


> Immediately the Shield home screen looked soft/blurry. I would've thought it would be much better, maybe not as detailed but certainly more crisp.


The Shield UI is rendered blurry by the Shield I believe, even if it renders it at 4k. The text and UI elements from the Shield is notably softer than that from the AppleTV, for instance.


----------



## Javs

DigitalAV said:


> Thanks very much! I forgot to mention I have an Epson shifter, and turning the Image Preset down did help a little bit (I already had it pretty low). The odd thing is that my Oppo 203 seems to do a better job scaling to 4k which really surprises me. Granted, I'm probably being overly critical looking at home/menu screens, but it's just a bit surprising as that's the first thing you notice.


The upscaling has not really meaningfully changed with the new pipeline vs the older betas. Maybe a little but I would not say it got worse. Just not any better either. It is sharper than the Oppo upscaling though by a miniscule amount.






RM : Screenshot Comparison


Make comparison of screenshots




screenshotcomparison.com





There is more ringing evident on the lumagen upscaling though, even with zero sharpening being added. Like it or not, its in every single shot ive ever captured from the LRP upscaling. 

The downscaling is certainly different with the new pipeline.


----------



## Javs

Craig Peer said:


> I do use sharpening - 2 I believe. I do not use Darbee - I think it adds noise myself.
> 
> Correction - I have these sharpening notes I got from Paul ( @woofer ) which I think are my current settings ( at least I tried them - might have backed off a little - need to check ) -
> 
> HDR/4K
> 
> SHARPENING....H ( 5) V (4) SENS (NORMAL)
> 
> SDR
> 
> SHARPENING H (4) V (3) SENS (HIGH)


Thats a bit much IMO and wuld result in pretty bad ringing. If you absolutely must use shapening I would say just stick with 1.


----------



## satyab

Recently I am seeing digital noise (Not sure if that's correct word) on the image since last few updates even on the clean digital movies which I haven't seen before. The projector settings are same, I didn't changed anything on LPR as well except FW update.


----------



## Mikesterz

davidmm7 said:


> Anyone?


You’ll want to connect the PS5 to the lumagen and just call it a day. You’ll be giving up 120 fps but you’ll gain DTM. I doubt the PS5 actually gives you over 60 fps if you’re like me and set the PS5 for the best image possible. 

The lumagen has a game mode and still allows DTM, which I highly recommend, so the input lag won’t be noticeable unless possibly if you have a high end PC and do competitive gaming. You can turn DTM on and off and when you do, you’ll want to keep it on, and only the lumagen can offer this feature to a projector that doesn’t have or isn’t good at DTM.


----------



## Craig Peer

Javs said:


> Thats a bit much IMO and wuld result in pretty bad ringing. If you absolutely must use shapening I would say just stick with 1.


I’m pretty sure I back those settings down a bit, and I don’t see ringing at all. Not on content anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Javs

NM


----------



## Mark_H

satyab said:


> Recently I am seeing digital noise (Not sure if that's correct word) on the image since last few updates even on the clean digital movies which I haven't seen before. The projector settings are same, I didn't changed anything on LPR as well except FW update.


You can always roll back firmware updates to see if it changes what you are seeing. If it does, then you have a piece of information you can give to Lumagen so that they can check.


----------



## graticular

graticular said:


> I am trying to change the 2.35/2.40 -> 2.40 option from 2.40 to 'No' on my 5244. I have tried this several times without success using the Save button on the remote, or the save in the menu. Each time it has reverted back to 2.40. Anyone know what I am doing wrong, or have the same issue? This is the previous beta release, not the latest one.


Anyone?


----------



## Mikesterz

graticular said:


> Anyone?


You might be hitting back or exit instead of ok and then save.


----------



## Mikesterz

satyab said:


> Recently I am seeing digital noise (Not sure if that's correct word) on the image since last few updates even on the clean digital movies which I haven't seen before. The projector settings are same, I didn't changed anything on LPR as well except FW update.


Check your sharpening setting. I don't go beyond plus 1 with my dlp projector but that plus 1 makes a very nice difference.


----------



## Craig Peer

Javs said:


> NM


I'd ask your buddy @woofer if he sees ringing. Those were his preferred settings when I asked him what he was using. Also, there are separate H / V sharpness settings now - not just one number ( set it to " 1 " ).


----------



## DigitalAV

Javs said:


> The upscaling has not really meaningfully changed with the new pipeline vs the older betas. Maybe a little but I would not say it got worse. Just not any better either. It is sharper than the Oppo upscaling though by a miniscule amount.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RM : Screenshot Comparison
> 
> 
> Make comparison of screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screenshotcomparison.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is more ringing evident on the lumagen upscaling though, even with zero sharpening being added. Like it or not, its in every single shot ive ever captured from the LRP upscaling.
> 
> The downscaling is certainly different with the new pipeline.


Didn't mean to imply it was better pre-pipeline enhancement, I meant I was expecting it to be better post-pipeline enhancement.

It might just be how my Epson 5050ub performs as a pixel shifter, plus my video chain now is sources > hdmi switch > oppo 203 > lumagen > projector -- I'm still playing with a bunch of settings in each when scaling content


----------



## Javs

Craig Peer said:


> I'd ask your buddy @woofer if he sees ringing. Those were his preferred settings when I asked him what he was using. Also, there are separate H / V sharpness settings now - not just one number ( set it to " 1 " ).


Dont need to ask him I have eyes of my own and yes its had both H and V settings ever since Ive been testing one here.



DigitalAV said:


> Didn't mean to imply it was better pre-pipeline enhancement, I meant I was expecting it to be better post-pipeline enhancement.
> 
> It might just be how my Epson 5050ub performs as a pixel shifter, plus my video chain now is sources > hdmi switch > oppo 203 > lumagen > projector -- I'm still playing with a bunch of settings in each when scaling content


They never said they set out to improve the upscaling though, that was just placebo by some users here when they tried the beta. It was more about the efficiency of the backend of the whole system, I took it as meaning kinda like cleaning up the code and removing bloat.

Aside from anything 4k/60p, They did say they improved downscaling. But in my opinion its not really better, its just different.

Something that is true though, in the current FW, the chroma alignment is better than it has ever been, and the upscaling from 1080p to UHD is not throwing away any lines of pixels whereas with old FW's (not talking beta's) would throw away 1-2px rows at the bottom which made for technically sub-optimal pixel doubling (1080>2160px).


----------



## graticular

Mikesterz said:


> You might be hitting back or exit instead of ok and then save.


Thanks for that. As a result of your comment I can now make it work, the issue was my lack of familiarity with the menus. It seems I should have hit OK twice (once for 2.40 option and once for input) before save. Now I can wait and see how well auto-aspect detects 2.35/2.4.


----------



## desray2k

The great support provided by Jim aside, the only suggestion that has room for improvement will have to be the GUI of the radiance pro. I hope Jim will not be offended by what I have to say. The archaic user interface sure can use some work to make it more intuitive for users. For instance, group all related options on HDR regardless of input or output into one segment so that the user will always figure out where to look for HDR settings and even pressing the help button that provides useful info on each setting can improve further. Presently when invoked, it provides a rather small window which the user has to scroll through to read the content. As I say, this is something which I hope to see in future but definitely can be placed in the least priority over software improvements.


----------



## bjorg

desray2k said:


> The great support provided by Jim aside, the only suggestion that has room for improvement will have to be the GUI of the radiance pro. I hope Jim will not be offended by what I have do say. The archaic user interface sure can use some work to make it more intuitive for users. For instance, group all related options on HDR regardless input or output into one segment so that user will always figure out where to look for HDR settings and even pressing the help button that provide useful info on each settings can improve further. Presently when invoked, it provides a rather small and often small window which user has to scroll through to read the content. Like I say, this is something which I hope to see in future but definitely can be place in the least priority over software improvements.


Calling the UI archaic is being kind, IMHO. As much as I love the my two LRPs, the UI puts the Rubik’s cube to shame. When I received my first LRP, I was ready to send it back because I could not make head and tails of it. Just check my posts way back. Since then, I have learned to appreciate its capabilities, but the lack of making it user-friendly is going to be its downfall.

Some time ago, I offered to write a network-based UI for it using a RaspberryPi. I got some a few upvotes and nothing from Jim. So, I never pursued it. It didn’t help my motivation that only a subset of what is possible via the UI is available via API. And I’m using the term “API” very loosely here, because the RS-232 protocol is bonkers. This has to be the worst command API every conceived. It seems obvious that it was an afterthought. Even the documentation is not accurate and you have to guess your way through it.

Yes, I’m frustrated because I care and I wish LRP did a better job for automation. But, ultimately, I bought it for image quality and there it does an exceptional job. Hopefully, Lumagen can address the lack of polish on the automaton-side while maintaining its image-processing lead!


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> I'm curious if there is something in the EDID coming from your HTPC that is tripping it up.


EDID information is flowing display to source, not vice versa. There´s no EDID "coming from your HTPC".


----------



## desray2k

bjorg said:


> Yes, I’m frustrated because I care and I wish LRP did a better job for automation. But, ultimately, I bought it for image quality and there it does an exceptional job. Hopefully, Lumagen can address the lack of polish on the automaton-side while maintaining its image-processing lead!


I totally understand your frustration. The cardinal rule of a good UI is when the user is able to navigate with ease w/o much guesswork. I'm pretty sure most of us learned the hard way when it comes to navigating RP menu. There are tons of useful features that are hidden in layers and it takes many tries and hours of deep dives and hands-on for most users to familiarize the settings. RP has been around in the home theatre community for a very long time and in spite of > 800 pages of discussions in this thread, there are still many users unsure of simple steps like, "make sure to enter "ok" twice to save the settings permanently". I really can't blame the new users for being frustrated and afraid of the steep learning curve using the RP as I am also in that state once. Fortunately, the end-user support from Jim and Patrick has been excellent and the continuous effort to improve the image quality is second to none I have seen in this industry. But still, we need to address the elephant in the room when it comes to UI design and navigation in RP. I really hope Jim and Patrick can work on the UI in the near future when the bandwidth allows.


----------



## Vinturbo

It would be useful and appreciated to have the maxlight menus also available in service mode when calling up the quick menu with the left arrow.

Now you need to switch to user mode in order to see that function.

It's a detail, but it would be handy.


----------



## audioguy

bjorg said:


> *Hopefully, Lumagen can address the lack of polish on the automaton-side while maintaining its image-processing lead*!


I wouldn't count on it. Lumagen is a very small company with enough resources to do just what they do - provide continuous improvements in visual processing as well as proper end user support. 

Having been a programmer once upon a time, re-writing the "interface" to make it far more user friendly is no small task.

About 30 years ago, I was the Marketing Director for a (also very small) company called Cambridge Signal Technologies. They created the very first digitial room correction product used in studios, 2 channel rooms and home theaters - called SigTech . The user interface for setup and calibration (In this case, the "user" was typically me and a few other folks) was DOS based. As other products eventually were developed by other companies (the technology of those products, and the end results, was no where near as good as what SigTech had developed), the UI of those other products made them accessable to a MUCH larger audience. SigTech did not have the resources to both rewrite the software and modify the product to reduce the cost. The company lasted about 10 years And, quite frankly, until the development of the Trinnov, no other product provided the kind of calibration flexibility as did the SigTech.

The above is not to suggest that Lumagen will necessarily go out of business if they do not change their interface. I most certainly do not believe that to be the case (I might feel differently if the Envy products were not so expensive). My point was, very small companies don't always have the resources to provide all of the enhancments users want. And, I would most certainly add Kaleidescape to this list. While their UI, is easy to use, it has not seen much change/improvement for a least the 5 to 7 years I have used it. And that is not without users requesting changes.


----------



## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> I wouldn't count on it. Lumagen is a very small company with enough resources to do just what they do - provide continuous improvements in visual processing as well as proper end user support.


A more user-friendly GUI would free up resources in support.
But i agree, changing a GUI is a complex task which would suck up a significant amount of resources at first.


----------



## scrowe

I don’t think short or medium term there is any need to put work into the device-driven menu UI, which is fine for advanced users and calibrators, as mostly it’s a one- time setup, and completely functional if you know what you are doing. What is sorely needed in future models is a network/web interface (tentatively promised as upgrade for 5-series) for firmware updates, which could then easily also render a web-menu based on the short commands. If this could then allow in future a novice user guided wizard setup, then all the better, and would be the start of modernising. That being said I can’t see many users wanting anything but minimal time spent on such a thing, in short-term deference to improving the processing and features, particularly there is clearly catch-up work required, now the 12-but pipeline seems complete.


----------



## audioguy

What does the Lumagen do if it sees an 8K input (e.g. 8K YouTube video) since the specs says it accepts 4K inputs?


----------



## fatherom

audioguy said:


> What does the Lumagen do if it sees an 8K input (e.g. 8K YouTube video) since the specs says it accepts 4K inputs?


What source device would one use to try this?


----------



## bobof

audioguy said:


> What does the Lumagen do if it sees an 8K input (e.g. 8K YouTube video) since the specs says it accepts 4K inputs?


No well-mannered HDMI device should send it 8K, as the onboard EDIDs do not offer support of 8K (so it would be a violation to send it). So I'd imagine currently most devices playing your example (an 8K youtube) would actually be downscaling it to 4K or less before sending it to the Radiance.

The HDMI inputs chips top out at 18Gbps if you have 18Gbps input cards. They're only specified with HDMI2.0b resolutions which doesn't include 8K.
I'd imagine you'd get no signal currently if you forced an 8K (but 18Gbps) into the unit by overriding the EDID.

Theoretically a source device could smush 8K 24p 4:2:0 8 bit uncompressed into 18Gbps (not a very attractive proposition), or higher refresh rates / resolutions with "visually lossless" DSC compression. No idea if that could be made to work with the existing hardware though, as firstly you'd have to unpack DSC you then have much more pixel data to process, and then what would you want to do with the output?


----------



## Mikesterz

desray2k said:


> The great support provided by Jim aside, the only suggestion that has room for improvement will have to be the GUI of the radiance pro. I hope Jim will not be offended by what I have to say. The archaic user interface sure can use some work to make it more intuitive for users. For instance, group all related options on HDR regardless of input or output into one segment so that the user will always figure out where to look for HDR settings and even pressing the help button that provides useful info on each setting can improve further. Presently when invoked, it provides a rather small window which the user has to scroll through to read the content. As I say, this is something which I hope to see in future but definitely can be placed in the least priority over software improvements.


We have moved on from DOS. It’s time to update the lumagen and add a nice GUI. I don’t like to play hide and seek for simple things like finding the sharpening setting. A friend was going to purchase the lumagen but went with MadVR when he found out it was running in DOS.


----------



## Naiera

I think the case for why it might not be possible to just update the GUI right here and now was made rather convincingly, though.


----------



## audioguy

fatherom said:


> What source device would one use to try this?


8K YouTube videos may not show up to my JVC RS4100 HDMI input as 8K, but they still look SPECTACULAR !!!


----------



## fatherom

audioguy said:


> 8K YouTube videos may not show up to my JVC RS4100 HDMI input as 8K, but they still look SPECTACULAR !!!


My question was about the source device...what device would be playing back such an 8K video, and have the capability to send that 8K signal out to a lumagen, for example?


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> We have moved on from DOS. It’s time to update the lumagen and add a nice GUI. I don’t like to play hide and seek for simple things like finding the sharpening setting. A friend was going to purchase the lumagen but went with MadVR when he found out it was running in DOS.


Wow. Sharpening is right arrow on the remote. This is hard to find for you? It honestly doesn’t get much easier than that. The interface many look outdated in graphics but it works really well if you take some time to learn it. There are no limits because it doesn’t look pretty. It is designed as a custom install product, so the expectation is the installer or dealer will set it up and know how to do that. Once it is installed properly the amount of times you have to go into the main menu is near zero, especially with the new remote having a save button directly for any changes made. All the main user adjustments for tweaks are in the quick pop ups that are literally a single button press for hdr or sharpening menus.

I suppose Lumagen could have put the resource into a new UI and just put out a new product so it looks cooler. Instead they been applying new features and updates to the hardware at no cost for what, 5-6 years now? Wonder which one I think is more of a benefit for users……..


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

DOS - lol, actually it's MadVR that's running PC software although very custom.


----------



## TXavGuy

Is anyone using their Lumagen to scale scope content to fill a 16:9 screen, either by simple cropping or using NLS? If so, how does it work out for common content? I've been looking for posts here and elsewhere about this, but haven't found any discussion, let alone any demos.


----------



## Mark_H

bjorg said:


> [the] UI puts the Rubik’s cube to shame...the lack of making it user-friendly is going to be its downfall.


I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning...


----------



## gadgetfreaky

i just updated the new firmware. is there any settimgs that should be changed? @Kris Deering calibrated it.


----------



## graticular

Although I am at the early stages of the learning process, one thing that does seem very clunky is setting the lip sync, to the extent that if is out in a film I tend to just put up with it being wrong rather than the hassle of multiple adjustments.


----------



## Mark_H

graticular said:


> Although I am at the early stages of the learning process, one thing that does seem very clunky is setting the lip sync, to the extent that if is out in a film I tend to just put up with it being wrong rather than the hassle of multiple adjustments.


Lip sync, more often than not, requires audio delay, not video delay, so the first place to look to solve it is your audio processor, not the Lumagen, which only offers additional video delay…


----------



## graticular

Mark_H said:


> Lip sync, more often than not, requires audio delay, not video delay, so the first place to look to solve it is your audio processor, not the Lumagen, which only offers additional video delay…


I need to do this in Lumagen as different inputs (Apple TV or blue ray player) seem to need different delays, also HDR/SDR seems to affect sync. Changing the sync on the processor affects all inputs together. My 5244 offers both audio and video delays.


----------



## Naiera

Please show us the menu where it offers audio delay.


----------



## Mark_H

graticular said:


> I need to do this in Lumagen as different inputs (Apple TV or blue ray player) seem to need different delays


It is true that different sources will require different audio delays. Some sources can also have different delays depending on the audio codec and/or streaming app. Lip-sync is a rabbit hole, for sure. Those who don't notice it are very fortunate!



> also HDR/SDR seems to affect sync.


Less certain about this, but I could be wrong. However, it's not something I notice with my sources (Oppo 205/NVidia Shield).

Most sources, once dialled in, are well behaved - the majority of material played will then be good, with just the odd bit of material requiring manual intervention.



graticular said:


> My 5244 offers both audio and video delays.


If so, then you have a solution within reach, unless I'm missing something???


----------



## graticular

Naiera said:


> Please show us the menu where it offers audio delay.


This is what I was using (Audio delay to report) - or have I misinterpreted?


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> This is what I was using (Audio delay to report) - or have I misinterpreted?
> View attachment 3339039
> 
> View attachment 3339039





graticular said:


> I need to do this in Lumagen as different inputs (Apple TV or blue ray player) seem to need different delays, also HDR/SDR seems to affect sync. Changing the sync on the processor affects all inputs together. My 5244 offers both audio and video delays.


Pretty sure it's video delay only in all the Radiance Pro units. The audio passes directly from HDMI inputs to outputs. 

That option reports a different audio delay to the upstream device (ie a source device, or an AVR if you have the pro connected to the AVR _output_). By fiddling with that some sources will adjust the sync of the audio and video.


----------



## graticular

Ah, so should I just be using the Add internal video delay instead?


----------



## EVH78

Nope, I definitely recommend to use your AVR as others have already suggested.


----------



## graticular

EVH78 said:


> Nope, I definitely recommend to use your AVR as others have already suggested.


I will set an overall audio delay in the audio processor, but I need to have the ability to adjust this for each source in the Lumagen.


----------



## EVH78

graticular said:


> I will set an overall audio delay in the audio processor, but I need to have the ability to adjust this for each source in the Lumagen.


Then you might need to consider to use your AVR for switching inputs. In my setup one audio delay matches all sources by the Lumagen luckily.


----------



## bobof

Without detailed knowledge of how the source you are connecting will react to having the EDID lipsync info changed, it's not easy to answer. If you wanted to find out if a given source did something with this information, you could adjust it and see if the lipsync changes. If it does, then you can use that setting to affect the output of the connected source. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter where the sync adjustment is happening (that was my main point, audio sync can't actually happen in the Lumagen).

I've never had a need to set the sync differently for different devices, so can't really help very much...

One possibility that is open to you; if you set an _audio_ delay in the processor that is as big as the largest audio delay you need; you can then adjust the sync per source in the Lumagen by _adding_ video delay to sources that need _less_ audio delay. Note that the video delay in the Lumagen rounds to whole numbers of frames, which means 42ms lumps in the case of 24p.


----------



## Die Zwei

graticular said:


> I will set an overall audio delay in the audio processor, but I need to have the ability to adjust this for each source in the Lumagen.


I´m not familiar at all with Lyngdorf, but having a quick look into the MP-50 manual, it seems that it is capable of setting source-specific delays on top of the global delay. (which is what i´d expect).


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> In my setup one audio delay matches all sources by the Lumagen luckily.


Same here.


----------



## SJHT

EVH78 said:


> Then you might need to consider to use your AVR for switching inputs. In my setup one audio delay matches all sources by the Lumagen luckily.


I also have no issues, but depending on your AVR, you might be able to have different sources that all use the same HDMI input. SJ


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> One possibility that is open to you; if you set an _audio_ delay in the processor that is as big as the largest audio delay you need; you can then adjust the sync per source in the Lumagen by _adding_ video delay to sources that need _less_ audio delay. Note that the video delay in the Lumagen rounds to whole numbers of frames, which means 42ms lumps in the case of 24p.


I think this will be the plan for tonight.


----------



## graticular

Die Zwei said:


> I´m not familiar at all with Lyngdorf, but having a quick look into the MP-50 manual, it seems that it is capable of setting source-specific delays on top of the global delay. (which is what i´d expect).


That was my approach in my pre-lumagen days.


----------



## graticular

EVH78 said:


> Then you might need to consider to use your AVR for switching inputs. In my setup one audio delay matches all sources by the Lumagen luckily.


I don't really want to have the AVR for switching inputs unless forced to as other benefits would be lost (and not the recommended way).


----------



## EVH78

graticular said:


> I don't really want to have the AVR for switching inputs unless forced to as other benefits would be lost (and not the recommended way).


Video Delay is not really recommended either. I would definitely try to avoid this.


----------



## graticular

EVH78 said:


> Video Delay is not really recommended either. I would definitely try to avoid this.


Is that because of the minimum size of the '42ms lumps'?


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I loaded the release candidate yesterday and spent the evening scaling a bluray. Everything is working great. I tored to watch a D+ movie a couple nights ago that is Imax enhanced. I still haven't figured out how to lock it to 2.35. I tried pressing the button. I ended up just using lens memory to set the aspect at 2.0 and just dealt with the undersized 2.35. I really hate these changing aspects. So stupid.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Wow. Sharpening is right arrow on the remote. This is hard to find for you? It honestly doesn’t get much easier than that. The interface many look outdated in graphics but it works really well if you take some time to learn it. There are no limits because it doesn’t look pretty. It is designed as a custom install product, so the expectation is the installer or dealer will set it up and know how to do that. Once it is installed properly the amount of times you have to go into the main menu is near zero, especially with the new remote having a save button directly for any changes made. All the main user adjustments for tweaks are in the quick pop ups that are literally a single button press for hdr or sharpening menus.
> 
> I suppose Lumagen could have put the resource into a new UI and just put out a new product so it looks cooler. Instead they been applying new features and updates to the hardware at no cost for what, 5-6 years now? Wonder which one I think is more of a benefit for users……..


I did not know this. I was clicking about 8 times to get to sharpening. I’ll try clicking right. Perhaps I may be in service mode. I believe there is also a consumer mode that I should look into.


----------



## MOberhardt

Mark_H said:


> I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning...


Lol. Definitely hyperbolic but I have to admit the first time I saw the menu I cringed. I had a instant flashback to the late 80s and an analog raster based ui. I was remembering the Colecovision.


----------



## Craig Peer

graticular said:


> I need to do this in Lumagen as different inputs (Apple TV or blue ray player) seem to need different delays,* also HDR/SDR seems to affect sync*. Changing the sync on the processor affects all inputs together. My 5244 offers both audio and video delays.


Never heard of that happening.


----------



## bobof

Craig Peer said:


> Never heard of that happening.


I guess it's not impossible if you have a display that has different modes selectable for HDR, and you have extra processing in one but not the other - eg either DTM enabled in the display, or motion processing in one and not the other. But agree, sounds unusual. I've certainly seen it with refresh rates on occasion, though.


----------



## Naiera

MOberhardt said:


> Lol. Definitely hyperbolic but I have to admit the first time I saw the menu I cringed. I had a instant flashback to the late 80s and an analog raster based ui. I was remembering the Colecovision.


I think it's important to mind, as has been mentioned, that this is mostly supposed to be a "set it and forget it" kind of device. You or your installer set it up and then the menu is hardly ever used again. As such, the look and intricacies of the menu are fine. I'm not going to say that it isn't complicated, because it definitely is, but that sort of thing comes with the myriad of options it has.


----------



## docrog

graticular said:


> I don't really want to have the AVR for switching inputs unless forced to as other benefits would be lost (and not the recommended way).


Sorry to revisit this long ago discussed topic, but it's been well established that state-of-the-art AVRs (with total video passthrough) are unlikely to cause ANY objective deterioration to Lumagen's perceived performance. The recommendation to not use the AVR as a switching device was apparently based at a point in time when potential AVR signal degradation couldn't be predicted. Many users (myself included) are thrilled not to have to go through the effort of splitting off our sources' audio component; additionally, we regain the use of the AVR's GUI and need to run only a single cable to the RP. Any AV delay/mismatch seems to be far more easily rectified. Multiple virtual RP memories are available if you need to assign specific needs to your various sources.


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Sorry to revisit this long ago discussed topic, but it's been well established that state-of-the-art AVRs (with total video passthrough) are unlikely to cause ANY objective deterioration to Lumagen's perceived performance. The recommendation to not use the AVR as a switching device was apparently based at a point in time when potential AVR signal degradation couldn't be predicted. Many users (myself included) are thrilled not to have to go through the effort of splitting off our sources' audio component; additionally, we regain the use of the AVR's GUI and need to run only a single cable to the RP. Any AV delay/mismatch seems to be far more easily rectified. Multiple virtual RP memories are available if you need to assign specific needs to your various sources.


I can't recall which model the OP has, but I seem to recall the 5XXX series have other benefits when using them as the switching device (jitter, etc).


----------



## Mike_WI

Lumagen



*Production candidate 091922- Posted 092622 *
Fix for input aspect occasionally not triggering when source videos aspect change. 
Some other small input aspect fixups. 
Please continue sending your detailed feedback to _support__@lumagen.com
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware._


----------



## jrp

docrog said:


> Sorry to revisit this long ago discussed topic, but it's been well established that state-of-the-art AVRs (with total video passthrough) are unlikely to cause ANY objective deterioration to Lumagen's perceived performance. The recommendation to not use the AVR as a switching device was apparently based at a point in time when potential AVR signal degradation couldn't be predicted. Many users (myself included) are thrilled not to have to go through the effort of splitting off our sources' audio component; additionally, we regain the use of the AVR's GUI and need to run only a single cable to the RP. Any AV delay/mismatch seems to be far more easily rectified. Multiple virtual RP memories are available if you need to assign specific needs to your various sources.


While at one time most AVRs degraded video, this is not the current reasoning to use the Radiance Pro for audio and video switching.

You are correct that most current AVRs and audio processors now act only as an HDMI switch, and as such can only affect video if they increase jitter and thus the Bit-Error-Rate (BER), which some do. When people ask if it makes sense to use the AVR or audio processor for switching, I agree it can. It is a personal choice. Note that in the case of the 5XXX models, they significantly reduce clock jitter versus sources, and in doing so can make audio sound better, even though the Radiance Pro does not process audio. Dejitter circuits are common in high end audio systems for good reason. Reducing the clock jitter at the DACs can reduce distortion and improve audio. Having the HDMI input clock jitter at a very low level (the 5348 was measured at about a 10 pS clock jitter), makes it easier for the audio processor to minimize clock jitter at the DACs.

The reason I am recommending that the Radiance Pro do the switching is that the video switching can be faster. If the audio processor does the switching, since it is only a switch, it has to lock on to the new source (this does depend on if the HDMI input chip has a fast input switch mode or not), then it restarts its output forcing the Radiance Pro to have to lock on to the restarted HDMI signal, and then the Pro will generally have to restart its output and the projector will have to lock on. Projector lock-on can take a long time. If the Radiance Pro does the switching and is set up properly, the Radiance Pro is already locked on to the new source, and if the output does not need to change rate, often the Pro does not need to restart the output. In this case switching, say, from a 4k60 source to a different 4k60 source can show the new source in as little as 3 seconds. Using the AVR for switching will take longer than this.

We show the AVR/audio-processor used for switching as one configuration for good reason. It can make sense. While I recommend the Radiance Pro do the switching it is reasonable to let the AVR or audio-processor do the switching.


----------



## Mike_WI

jrp said:


> While at one time most AVRs degraded video, this is not the current reasoning to use the Radiance Pro for audio and video switching.
> 
> You are correct that most current AVRs and audio processors now act only as an HDMI switch, and as such can only affect video if they increase jitter and thus the Bit-Error-Rate (BER), which some do. When people ask if it makes sense to use the AVR or audio processor for switching, I agree it can. It is a personal choice. Note that in the case of the 5XXX models, they significantly reduce clock jitter versus sources, and in doing so can make audio sound better, even though the Radiance Pro does not processor audio. Dejitter circuits are common in high end audio systems for good reason. Reducing the clock jitter at the DACs can reduce distortion and improve audio. Having the HDMI input clock jitter at a very low level (the 5348 was measured at about a 10 pS clock jitter), makes it easier for the audio processor to minimize clock jitter at the DACs.
> 
> The reason I am recommending that the Radiance Pro do the switching is that the video switching can be faster. If the audio processor does the switching, since it is only a switch, it has to lock on to the new source (this does depend on if the HDMI input chip has a fast input switch mode or not), then it restarts its output forcing the Radiance Pro to have to lock on to the restarted HDMI signal, and then the Pro will generally have to restart its output and the projector will have to lock on. Projector lock-on can take a long time. If the Radiance Pro does the switching and is set up properly, the Radiance Pro is already locked on to the new source, and if the output does not need to change rate, often the Pro does not need to restart the output. In this case switching, say, from a 4k60 source to a different 4k60 source can show the new source in as little as 3 seconds. Using the AVR for switching will take longer than this.
> 
> We show the AVR/audio-processor as one configuration for good reason. It can make sense. While I recommend the Radiance Pro do the switching it is reasonable to let the AVR or audio-processor do the switching.


Thanks for commenting Jim. I am thinking of eventually replacing my venerable 2008 era AVR with the new Denon flagship (or other) and would lose OSD again.


----------



## docrog

Mike_WI said:


> Thanks for commenting Jim. I am thinking of eventually replacing my venerable 2008 era AVR with the new Denon flagship (or other) and would lose OSD again.


I greatly appreciate Jim's recent post with regards to having the AVR before the RP. I can attest that my Denon 6700 (and comparable models) are rock solid as switching devices with prior (to the 5xxx) RP models; I'm unable to comment on whether or not clock jitter issues are inherent in my system. Also, I almost never change my video source when watching, so subsequent video switching delay is irrelevant to me once the initial HDMI handshake is completed,


----------



## jrp

I just had someone tell me to check my PMs. Looks like I missed a number of PMs since I never check for PMs. Apologies to those of you I failed to respond to because I did not check for PMs. Thanks for your patience.

Please do not PM me. I never check. Okay just said that.

Please instead email lumagen.com support. I check the support email often.

As a backup, if you email support, and I do not answer in a day or so, then PM me and post for me to check PMs. Or you can call.

Our SPAM filter is overactive dealing with the perhaps 1000 SPAM emails we get a day, It may be necessary to use a backup method so I see your question. In addition I have answered several emails of late from Lumagen support that never arrive and the questioner sends multiple emails asking me to respond when I already did.

====

If you PM'd me and are still needing an answer, please email lumagen.com support and ask again. Or you can call the number on our website.


----------



## jdsutt1

One additional tip is to also check your own spam folder. In my (limited) experience, Jim is very quick to respond and I found that his messages would sometimes get routed to my own gmail spam folder, so be sure to check there as well before reaching back out…


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

That's the way it goes when Mercury is retrograde, Jim. 😂


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> While at one time most AVRs degraded video, this is not the current reasoning to use the Radiance Pro for audio and video switching.
> 
> You are correct that most current AVRs and audio processors now act only as an HDMI switch, and as such can only affect video if they increase jitter and thus the Bit-Error-Rate (BER), which some do. When people ask if it makes sense to use the AVR or audio processor for switching, I agree it can. It is a personal choice. Note that in the case of the 5XXX models, they significantly reduce clock jitter versus sources, and in doing so can make audio sound better, even though the Radiance Pro does not process audio. Dejitter circuits are common in high end audio systems for good reason. Reducing the clock jitter at the DACs can reduce distortion and improve audio. Having the HDMI input clock jitter at a very low level (the 5348 was measured at about a 10 pS clock jitter), makes it easier for the audio processor to minimize clock jitter at the DACs.
> 
> The reason I am recommending that the Radiance Pro do the switching is that the video switching can be faster. If the audio processor does the switching, since it is only a switch, it has to lock on to the new source (this does depend on if the HDMI input chip has a fast input switch mode or not), then it restarts its output forcing the Radiance Pro to have to lock on to the restarted HDMI signal, and then the Pro will generally have to restart its output and the projector will have to lock on. Projector lock-on can take a long time. If the Radiance Pro does the switching and is set up properly, the Radiance Pro is already locked on to the new source, and if the output does not need to change rate, often the Pro does not need to restart the output. In this case switching, say, from a 4k60 source to a different 4k60 source can show the new source in as little as 3 seconds. Using the AVR for switching will take longer than this.
> 
> We show the AVR/audio-processor used for switching as one configuration for good reason. It can make sense. While I recommend the Radiance Pro do the switching it is reasonable to let the AVR or audio-processor do the switching.


Many thanks for this Jim.
In addition to the faster switching and the very nice improvement in audio quality from having my 5244 do the switching I also very much like the Auto Input Select function.


----------



## EVH78

graticular said:


> Many thanks for this Jim.
> In addition to the faster switching and the very nice improvement in audio quality from having my 5244 do the switching I also very much like the Auto Input Select function.


As far as I know there is zero audio processing by the Radiance Pro.

I have not heard of the auto input function yet though.


----------



## Michael-S

EVH78 said:


> As far as I know there is zero audio processing by the Radiance Pro.
> 
> I have not heard of the auto input function yet though.


I believe he is referring to the improvements in Audio that reduced jitter can enable, which is an enhancement that the 5244 provides.

But like you, I don’t recall the Auto Input Select function being discussed here.


----------



## graticular

Michael-S said:


> I don’t recall the Auto Input Select function being discussed here.


It is great. Whenever I switch on Apple TV or bluray player it's there on the screen ready to go.


----------



## Ian_Currie

The UI discussion is prompting a question from me. I have spent a LOT of time in these menus and am getting quite familiar with them. One thing that would make life easier for me is a way to instantly get back 'home' (main menu) or even closing the UI (without having to hit back, back, back). Does this exist?


----------



## graticular

Ian_Currie said:


> One thing that would make life easier for me is a way to instantly get back 'home' (main menu) or even closing the UI (without having to hit back, back, back). Does this exist?


 'Clear' button?


----------



## EVH78

graticular said:


> It is great. Whenever I switch on Apple TV or bluray player it's there on the screen ready to go.


Which menu activates auto input?


----------



## graticular

EVH78 said:


> Which menu activates auto input?


I think this is it from the manual:
*Auto Input Select*
When enabled, this list can be used to auto switch to an active input when the current video source is turned off. The priority 1 input is the first input tried when the current video source is turned off. HDMI inputs can be auto selected when turned on by setting “Select when On” to “Y”. Disable auto selection by deleting all entries in the list. The command is:
*MENU → Other → I/O Setup → Auto Select*


----------



## jrp

Ian_Currie said:


> The UI discussion is prompting a question from me. I have spent a LOT of time in these menus and am getting quite familiar with them. One thing that would make life easier for me is a way to instantly get back 'home' (main menu) or even closing the UI (without having to hit back, back, back). Does this exist?


If you are anywhere in the menu, you can just press the MENU button to get back to the top of the menu tree. The exception is if you have a test-pattern shown, then MENU does _not_ do this.

To take down the menu OSD, press CLEAR to the upper-left of the arrow buttons.


----------



## Drexler

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I loaded the release candidate yesterday and spent the evening scaling a bluray. Everything is working great. I tored to watch a D+ movie a couple nights ago that is Imax enhanced. I still haven't figured out how to lock it to 2.35. I tried pressing the button. I ended up just using lens memory to set the aspect at 2.0 and just dealt with the undersized 2.35. I really hate these changing aspects. So stupid.


Just a tip. D+ have two versions if their IMAX enhanced titles. Scroll down and you can select the cinema version with constant 2.35:1 ratio.


----------



## Naiera

Either way, those MCU movies on Disney+ look hella good. I just watch that and wait for the 4K discs to go down in price, now that they're finished at 4K, unlike the first three phases, save for Black Panther.


----------



## fatherom

Naiera said:


> now that they're finished at 4K, unlike the first three phases, save for Black Panther.


I just looked at blu-ray.com - Black Panther on disc is upscaled 4K, so is Black Widow. Doctor Strange MOM and Thor 4 are native 4k, though.


----------



## Naiera

Black Panther was shot at 3.4K and finished at 4K. Blu-ray.com is not always accurate.


----------



## desray2k

New firmware (Production Candidate) available for the Radiance Pro series:

Changelog:
*Production candidate 091922 - Fix for input aspect occasionally not triggering when source videos aspect change. Some other small input aspect fixups.*

DDL: Lumagen


----------



## matty1137

What is the menu shortcut to enable all audio formats EDID?


----------



## fatherom

matty1137 said:


> What is the menu shortcut to enable all audio formats EDID?


I don't recall offhand...I would consult the manual.


----------



## Kris Deering

0943


----------



## jrp

matty1137 said:


> What is the menu shortcut to enable all audio formats EDID?


If you press MENU 0943, and then if the message says "press OK to enable common audio formats" you would press OK and the Pro is set manually to report all HDMI audio formats. This is a toggle command and you can revert to the default of passing back the audio EDID from the device on Output 1 if the message says "Restore normal..." then pressing OK.

We have some other Audio EDID codes. These have been broken in recent releases, but should now work in the Production Candidate. So, to use the following you need to update to the production candidate. These additional commands directly set formats, and you do not need to then press OK. Since we just fixed a bug with these additional audio EDID commands, please confirm for yourself that they now do what they should if you use any of the following:

MENU 0745 Report 2 channel PCM at 44.1 and 48 KHz in EDID back to sources
MENU 0746 Report 2 channel PCM at 44.1 and 48 KHz, and DD 5.1, in EDID back to sources
MENU 0747 Report all HDMI audio modes, except ATMOS and DTS-X, in EDID back to sources
MENU 0748 Report all HDMI audio modes in EDID back to sources (same as MENU 0943 except not a toggle command)

If you need these in the future you can just remember they are in the manual Direct Commands section near the end of the manual.

Remember to Save your changes.


----------



## audioguy

Post Deleted


----------



## graticular

The moment I was dreading has arrived - trying to update the firmware for the first time - failed dismally.

I downloaded the .exe file and ran it on my Windows 7 laptop, having attached it to the Lumagen using supplied the USB cable. I had found out that com port was 7 (using 'mode' command in a Dos box). I chose the fastest baud rate and com 7 then clicked on Update. After 5 seconds got an error message "Failed to connect to Lumagen . . ." I then tried different baud rates - same issue. I then followed the instructions for a Boot Mode Update. No better. Help would be much appreciated.


----------



## 187crew003

try all the com's despite what the dos box reads


----------



## Naiera

Did you try all the com ports?

You’re not going to be able to do a Boot Mode Update if you can’t find the LRP doing a normal update.


----------



## jrp

graticular said:


> The moment I was dreading has arrived - trying to update the firmware for the first time - failed dismally.
> 
> I downloaded the .exe file and ran it on my Windows 7 laptop, having attached it to the Lumagen using supplied the USB cable. I had found out that com port was 7 (using 'mode' command in a Dos box). I chose the fastest baud rate and com 7 then clicked on Update. After 5 seconds got an error message "Failed to connect to Lumagen . . ." I then tried different baud rates - same issue. I then followed the instructions for a Boot Mode Update. No better. Help would be much appreciated.


It has been a while since I used Windows 7, so this is from memory.

You need to find the Device Manager. This was under System in the Control Panel at some point. There you look for Ports, and under Ports look for "LPT COM" ports. If COM 7 is correct, and you selected that and got the error message you likely need to update the driver on your PC for the USB to serial adaptor used in the Radiance Pro.

To update the driver go to ftdichip.com. Then under drivers and then under VCP, download the Windows driver (64-bit if you have a 64-bit Windows 7 version). Then update your PC using the downloaded driver. Hopefully this allows you to get connected to the Radiance Pro.

On a couple occasions, due to some unknown Windows foible, when one port did not connect, changing to a different port number (I usually use Port 1, which generally does not have currently used assignment) then allowed the PC to connect to the Radiance Pro. You can do this in the Property.Advanced window once you have found the com port in the device manager.


----------



## graticular

187crew003 said:


> try all the com's despite what the dos box reads


Yes, tried them all in desperation. I have just done a hardware troubleshoot and the issue sounds like there is a missing driver for the cable. I've searched online for the right driver (Windows 7 64 bit) but seems like a nightmare with lots of suspect looking websites and not obvious which driver is needed. 
Jim do you have a link to the correct driver?


----------



## graticular

Many thanks Jim. It has now all worked fine. Not only was your answer incredibly quick but you brilliantly answered my second question before I had asked it!


----------



## Kris Deering

For the audio drop out junkies. Been at CEDIA for two days. First demo I attended was Eclipse/Envy/Steinway, had an audio dropout. Attended Barco/Envy/Storm Audio, had 2 drop outs in the demo. Attended Barco/Envy/Trinnov demo, one audio drop out.………….


----------



## Dave Harper

Kris Deering said:


> For the audio drop out junkies. Been at CEDIA for two days. First demo I attended was Eclipse/Envy/Steinway, had an audio dropout. Attended Barco/Envy/Storm Audio, had 2 drop outs in the demo. Attended Barco/Envy/Trinnov demo, one audio drop out.………….


Did you share your thoughts on Eclipse anywhere? If not, please do!


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> For the audio drop out junkies. Been at CEDIA for two days. First demo I attended was Eclipse/Envy/Steinway, had an audio dropout. Attended Barco/Envy/Storm Audio, had 2 drop outs in the demo. Attended Barco/Envy/Trinnov demo, one audio drop out.………….


I removed my Roku from my system since I no longer needed it. I then moved my Apple TV 4K to that input and my audio dropouts went away. It seems like I have a 50/50 chance that an input will experience audio dropouts. I’m glad I have 10 to choose from.


----------



## Clark Burk

Kris Deering said:


> For the audio drop out junkies. Been at CEDIA for two days. First demo I attended was Eclipse/Envy/Steinway, had an audio dropout. Attended Barco/Envy/Storm Audio, had 2 drop outs in the demo. Attended Barco/Envy/Trinnov demo, one audio drop out.………….


Looks like all the mega dollar audio processors seem to share something in common......


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> For the audio drop out junkies. Been at CEDIA for two days. First demo I attended was Eclipse/Envy/Steinway, had an audio dropout. Attended Barco/Envy/Storm Audio, had 2 drop outs in the demo. Attended Barco/Envy/Trinnov demo, one audio drop out.………….


Do you know which source players were used in the different setups? AFIAK, in the Trinnov room it was Kaleidescape.


----------



## jqmn

Kris Deering said:


> For the audio drop out junkies. Been at CEDIA for two days. First demo I attended was Eclipse/Envy/Steinway, had an audio dropout. Attended Barco/Envy/Storm Audio, had 2 drop outs in the demo. Attended Barco/Envy/Trinnov demo, one audio drop out.………….


Was not at CEDIA last night. Only movie I watched was Sony/LRP/Trinnov, had 1 audio dropout. The good news is the LRP was running 090822 and there was pumping in the star scene at the beginning of ST: TMP-DC 4KUHD; loaded 091922, restarted the scene and the pumping was gone.


----------



## Craig Peer

Die Zwei said:


> Do you know which source players were used in the different setups? AFIAK, in the Trinnov room it was Kaleidescape.


They were all using Kaleidescape. I experienced several audio drop outs at the Seymour demo. Storm audio processor I believe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kris Deering

I don’t think the Eclipse demo was using K. Looked like a PC. The others were all Kaleidescape.


----------



## Lygren

We’re using a Zidoo media player at the AUAV booth. Quite stabile, but we had a few handshake issues, typically caused by running a number of short clips of different resolutions and audio codecs sequentially. Using the Envy btw, but except for a few glitches it operates things very smoothly… 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t think the Eclipse demo was using K. Looked like a PC. The others were all Kaleidescape.


Seemed like everyone else was using Kscape then - I stand corrected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Clark Burk

Are any of the exhibitors using LRPs?


----------



## picree

With the latest Lumagen FW now tested and out of beta can someone list what was actually accomplished? I read the update history but was curious if anyone could summarize (sharpening?, AR change?, DTM (no?), FPGA?)

Are there any recommended settings to change like 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 etc.?


----------



## Woof Woof

IR Infrared Remote Control Receiver Extender Repeater Emitter USB Adapter AU https://amzn.asia/d/fAHDODy

Just FYI this works. 

It doesn’t actually plug into the Lumagen itself. 

It is just an external device - one end has an IR receiver. And the other end is an IR Emitter that you place near the Lumagen’s IR sensor. 

And it’s all powered by a USB port. 

I’m going to get the 4 IR emitter version since I have a bunch of components that I can’t get a direct line of sight too.


----------



## jrp

picree said:


> With the latest Lumagen FW now tested and out of beta can someone list what was actually accomplished? I read the update history but was curious if anyone could summarize (sharpening?, AR change?, DTM (no?), FPGA?)
> 
> Are there any recommended settings to change like 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 etc.?


For the pipeline-enhancement production release there were enhancements in many areas, but the main efforts were for 4k60 output, and 16:9 on a 2.40 screen. There were also precision enhancements, and some other improvements. The improvement for 4k60 was a complete redo of the entire video pipeline, which is why it took as long as it did. So, easy to say, but it was a lot of work.

The downscale for 16:9 content (3840 source width) on a 2.40 screen (to about 2844 wide) was improved for both 4k24, and 4k60, but the improvement for 4k60 was most significant.

Deinterlacing was improved.

We fixed a Chroma shift issue.

We added "Letterbox Bottom" and "Letterbox Top" for top-down, and bottom-up, masking respectively.

We added less-common aspect ratios support for source aspects such as 1.66, 2.55, and 2.76. These are currently not available for auto-aspect. We also added 2.1 source aspect which can now be auto-detected. If you want them, you must enable the additional aspects ratios in Input.Options.Aspect Setup.Aspect Opts.

We fixed a few minor issues with image sizing for some aspect ratios.

We fixed some pixel issues along the outer edge of the output raster.

There is a slight difference between the Radiance remote (used through 2021), and the new Radiance Pro remote (current starting in 2021). There is now a remote type selection in Other.I/O Setup.Remote Ctl. For most people there is no need to select the remote type.

We added a "HDCP delay" that does not start HDCP for a programmable time after the output restarts. This gives projectors with a longer lock-on time some extra time before the HDCP, with its maximum allotted time specification, starts. We added this for the Sony VPL-VW5000ES, but it is helpful for other projectors.

We added a Global.Video.Features menu that can help change a "per-input" setting for all inputs and input memories, and in some cases per-input resolution, setting in one go.

We fixed an issue with the status "auto report."

====

We want to thank everyone who reported issues and made suggestions during the pipeline enhancement work. Much appreciated.

====

There are no changes required to your settings when updating to the 091922 release from earlier releases. Of course, you may need to make changes to use the new features.

====

I expect the 091922 production-candidate will be relabeled as production as early as today. The feedback has been very positive, and no significant issues have been reported (that I know of).

We are now working on DTM desaturation. This has been on the list since before the pipeline enhancement work started, but we have not been able to address it until now. I will give an update on the desaturation work in another post.


----------



## Mikesterz

Clark Burk said:


> Looks like all the mega dollar audio processors seem to share something in common......


Deleted


----------



## Mikesterz

A more modern (consumer friendly) interface, instant aspect change, hdmi 2.1 (for 4k gaming), remote login and wireless updates are features that I hope will be implemented. Cedia is moving towards MadVR for a reason and I think those features would benefit Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

Subtitle support was also added for those with scope screens.


----------



## Dirk44

there can find it the menu and have I turn it up also ?


----------



## jrp

Mikesterz:

CEDIA is not moving toward the Envy. Envy made some marketing deals is all.

The Radiance Pro wins when going head-to-head against the Envy where it counts. That is consumers evaluating one against the other at viewing distance. I have two very recent cases of the two going head to head and the Radiance Pro was selected both times. These were cost-is-no-object theaters. Based on reports I received the Radiance Pro was selected for image quality, audio quality (5XXX models as dejitter circuit), and for a robust and reliable system.


----------



## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> Subtitle support was also added for those with scope screens.


Can you elaborate? I just received my 4242 and I’m still trying to get acclimated with it. I have yet to update firmware, but I’m looking at doing it today.


----------



## HTRaleigh

Mikesterz said:


> A more modern (consumer friendly) interface, instant aspect change, hdmi 2.1 (for 4k gaming), remote login and wireless updates are features that I hope will be implemented. Cedia is moving towards MadVR for a reason and I think those features would benefit Lumagen.


You do realize MadVR is a non-starter for gaming due to 220ms output latency? Also, automatic wireless updates sounds great until it isn’t. Who hasn’t had pushed updates for some device that was a disaster?Sometimes getting a large number of power users pre-testing updates works out much better for most end users. I think this latest LRP firmware journey is a great example of that.

Don’t get me wrong, the MadVR is a very nice (and expensive) piece of equipment and they do a great job of marketing some differences as advantages vs LRP. As Kris Deering and others have pointed out, many of those differences aren't really as important in the real world as the hype may suggest. Having a slick, idiot proof user interface is tremendously important for a modern car on board computer but beyond the novelty it has much less importance for a video scaler once you have it set up - but it does look nice. I’d also point out that as it stands now, there are many things the LRP can do as a comprehensive “solutions tool” that MadVR with its user interface can’t do. I don’t care how you organize menus in a GUI, at some point there is going to be a trade-off between flexibility and user interface. 

The whole dynamic tone mapping discussion between MadVR and LRP is interesting. MadVR has a potential advantage there because of the built-in 220ms lookahead and latency. We will see how LRP does on this over the next development cycle. The key will be results on the screen.

Brand competition is a great thing and consumers will ultimately be the winners. In my opinion, having the technical braintrust in this country and fully engaged on forums is a huge advantage for Lumagen. ( I say this knowing that Lumagen has an international user base, but the largest numbers are in the US). I’ve had the opportunity to ask Richard Litofsky (MadVR CEO) a question about technical bench depth behind his partner, inventor Mathias Rauen in Germany. Surprisingly, I did not get an answer that instilled enough confidence for me to consider spending $13.5 K USD to make a switch.


----------



## Naiera

jrp said:


> We fixed a Chroma shift issue.


This fix slaps, hard. Really, really good improvement. This is the sort of improvement that makes me go with a beta firmware


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> Mikesterz:
> 
> CEDIA is not moving toward the Envy. Envy made some marketing deals is all.
> 
> The Radiance Pro wins when going head-to-head against the Envy where it counts. That is consumers evaluating one against the other at viewing distance. I have two very recent cases of the two going head to head and the Radiance Pro was selected both times. These were cost-is-no-object theaters. Based on reports I received the Radiance Pro was selected for image quality, audio quality (5XXX models as dejitter circuit), and for a robust and reliable system.


Jim,
It will be very annoying for people who have Masking Frames to have super fast AR changes as then Frame moves mush slower than the AR change even today.
My 2 cents.
Ash


----------



## Mikesterz

Ash Sharma said:


> Jim,
> It will be very annoying for people who have Masking Frames to have super fast AR changes as then Frame moves mush slower than the AR change even today.
> My 2 cents.
> Ash


It would have to be an option. I also have a mode where my lens will zoom in and out depending on aspect but I also have a memory saved where it’s just the lumagen scales to all aspects. Haven’t used the projector zoom to aspect in a while but I’d like to keep that option.


----------



## Mikesterz

HTRaleigh said:


> You do realize MadVR is a non-starter for gaming due to 220ms output latency? Also, automatic wireless updates sounds great until it isn’t. Who hasn’t had pushed updates for some device that was a disaster?Sometimes getting a large number of power users pre-testing updates works out much better for most end users. I think this latest LRP firmware journey is a great example of that.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, the MadVR is a very nice (and expensive) piece of equipment and they do a great job of marketing some differences as advantages vs LRP. As Kris Deering and others have pointed out, many of those differences aren't really as important in the real world as the hype may suggest. Having a slick, idiot proof user interface is tremendously important for a modern car on board computer but beyond the novelty it has much less importance for a video scaler once you have it set up - but it does look nice. I’d also point out that as it stands now, there are many things the LRP can do as a comprehensive “solutions tool” that MadVR with its user interface can’t do. I don’t care how you organize menus in a GUI, at some point there is going to be a trade-off between flexibility and user interface.
> 
> The whole dynamic tone mapping discussion between MadVR and LRP is interesting. MadVR has a potential advantage there because of the built-in 220ms lookahead and latency. We will see how LRP does on this over the next development cycle. The key will be results on the screen.
> 
> Brand competition is a great thing and consumers will ultimately be the winners. In my opinion, having the technical braintrust in this country and fully engaged on forums is a huge advantage for Lumagen. ( I say this knowing that Lumagen has an international user base, but the largest numbers are in the US). I’ve had the opportunity to ask Richard Litofsky (MadVR CEO) a question about technical bench depth behind his partner, inventor Mathias Rauen in Germany. Surprisingly, I did not get an answer that instilled enough confidence for me to consider spending $13.5 K USD to make a switch.


MadVR is a non-starter for me as well due to gaming and other reasons. As far as the gui, I do know my way around it but thought it would be worthwhile for others to have a consumer mode. I do think that all, if not most consumers should change settings to their preference after calibration. In my case it’s gamma 1.05, max light at 4 x nits, and sharpness at plus 1. It took me weeks to figure out what the sweet spot was for my personal preference. It just seems like if there was quick access to most common settings with a “are you sure you’d like to save” type of menu for a consumer to use, it would benefit the product.


----------



## fatherom

Ash Sharma said:


> Jim,
> It will be very annoying for people who have Masking Frames to have super fast AR changes as then Frame moves mush slower than the AR change even today.
> My 2 cents.
> Ash


No one with moving masking frames should expect ANY system to do auto-aspect in such an environment for the very reason you cited...the frame movement is always going to be much slower than any aspect ratio detection done by a video processor.


----------



## jrp

Ash Sharma said:


> Jim,
> It will be very annoying for people who have Masking Frames to have super fast AR changes as then Frame moves mush slower than the AR change even today.
> My 2 cents.
> Ash


With masking, or without, I strongly recommend that auto-aspect be disabled (even after we speed it up in the Radiance Pro) for content that changes aspect ratio.

If you want to see the aspect changes (I hate them but it is a personal choice and in the 16:9 screen case the director's intent), select 16:9 for the entire movie/show. If you want to watch on an anamorphic screen, select the content's anamorphic aspect (typically 2.40) and watch the entire movie/show in anamorphic mode.

IMO it is "double dumb" to change to 16:9 on an anamorphic screen. The first 'dumb" is I think changing aspect ratio in a movie/show is dumb. The second dumb for iMAX content that intent is for the 16:9 portion to be larger than the anamorphic portion. Allowing aspect changes that make the 16:9 portion smaller is just a very bad idea, and why I call it "double dumb." On an anamorphic screen watch the entire movie as anamorphic as the director intended, which is indicated by this is how they are shown in commercial theaters with anamorphic screens.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> MadVR is a non-starter for me as well due to gaming and other reasons. As far as the gui, I do know my way around it but thought it would be worthwhile for others to have a consumer mode. I do think that all, if not most consumers should change settings to their preference after calibration. In my case it’s gamma 1.05, max light at 4 x nits, and sharpness at plus 1. It took me weeks to figure out what the sweet spot was for my personal preference. It just seems like if there was quick access to most common settings with a “are you sure you’d like to save” type of menu for a consumer to use, it would benefit the product.


All of the settings you just mentioned are available via the quick menus, so not sure what the issue is. With the updates remote saving settings is a single button press.


----------



## Craig Peer

jrp said:


> With masking, or without, I strongly recommend that auto-aspect be disabled (even after we speed it up in the Radiance Pro).
> 
> If you want to see the aspect changes (I hate them but it is a personal choice and in the 16:9 screen case the director's intent), select 16:9 for the entire movie/show. If you want to watch on an anamorphic screen, select the content's anamorphic aspect (typically 2.40) and watch the entire movie/show in anamorphic mode.
> 
> IMO it is "double dumb" to change to 16:9 on an anamorphic screen. The first 'dumb" is I think changing aspect ratio in a movie/show is dumb. The second dumb for iMAX content that intent is for the 16:9 portion to be larger than the anamorphic portion. *Allowing aspect changes that make the 16:9 portion smaller is just a very bad idea, and why I call it "double dumb." On an anamorphic screen watch the entire movie as anamorphic as the director intended, which is indicated by this is how they are shown in commercial theaters with anamorphic screens.*


That's exactly what I do - using the "sticky aspect ratio" feature. If it's a movie that's 50 / 50 16:9 / scope, like Dunkirk, I just watch the entire movie on my larger 16:9 screen.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> All of the settings you just mentioned are available via the quick menus, so not sure what the issue is. With the updates remote saving settings is a single button press.


I’ll have to look into it. I may be in a service mode or something that is preventing quick access to most common settings. Or maybe I’m just used to going through all the menu options. It’s good to know it’s available.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> I’ll have to look into it. I may be in a service mode or something that is preventing quick access to most common settings. Or maybe I’m just used to going through all the menu options. It’s good to know it’s available.


Right arrow allows you to tailor sharpness/enhancement options for the image and applies to all inputs that are the same input resolution. Left arrow allows you to fine tune the HDR parameters of that input, but changing the max light also changes the global max light. If service mode is enabled in the menus, there is even more granular settings for HDR tuning, though I think most should probably avoid using those if they don't know what they are doing. It is easy to make an adjustment that may look okay for a specific scene in a movie but will likely hurt overall image quality with continued viewing.


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> Can you elaborate? I just received my 4242 and I’m still trying to get acclimated with it. I have yet to update firmware, but I’m looking at doing it today.


While watching a scope movie, if you press the down arrow it will engage the first subtitle mode (designed for subs that split the frame and the bars). If you press down again it provides a larger area for subs that are completely out of the frame. Pressing up brings you back to the previous aspect.


----------



## Kris Deering

I have a variable masking system (Stewart EVO) and still to this day don't understand why anyone would want their masking system to be tied to the auto aspect detection of a processor. The masks would be moving unnecessarily for too many instances (random menu operation, random aspects in trailers, random pop ups from UI, etc). I vastly prefer manually selecting the masking aspect with a single button press so I know it will be what I want, when I want it and not randomly moving when it shouldn't be.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> I have a variable masking system (Stewart EVO) and still to this day don't understand why anyone would want their masking system to be tied to the auto aspect detection of a processor. The masks would be moving unnecessarily for too many instances (random menu operation, random aspects in trailers, random pop ups from UI, etc). I vastly prefer manually selecting the masking aspect with a single button press so I know it will be what I want, when I want it and not randomly moving when it shouldn't be.


What we usually do is what i call the "handbrake approach": let the video processor detect the current ar all the time, but the mask is blocked. Then, if you´re sure you ended up with the correct ar, push a button (release the handbrake) and let the mask move to this ar (and then stay there plus doing additional adjustments on related gear if required). So this is semi-automated approach.
If you´re sure right from the beginning of the movie which ar you want, then you can of course also directly select the desired masking position.


----------



## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> While watching a scope movie, if you press the down arrow it will engage the first subtitle mode (designed for subs that split the frame and the bars). If you press down again it provides a larger area for subs that are completely out of the frame. Pressing up brings you back to the previous aspect.


I just updated to the latest firmware. It was super easy.

While doing so, I found a great option for those of you using Plex HTPC (or Plex) for greater control of subtitles. Creating an mpv.conf file with the flag --sub-use-margins=no will move subtitles so they are inside the image, so now you don't have to scale down scope content to make way for subs that go beyond the frame. Note that this only works for non-burned in subs.

This is the only feature I was missing from madVR. Now I am perfectly content! Hope this helps.

More info here on the Plex forums:


https://forums.plex.tv/t/customizing-subtitle-appearance-in-plex-player-for-windows-mac-linux-and-plex-htpc-and-pmp/204096


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

ajbriones said:


> I just updated to the latest firmware. It was super easy.
> 
> While doing so, I found a great option for those of you using Plex HTPC (or Plex) for greater control of subtitles. Creating an mpv.conf file with the flag --sub-use-margins=no will move subtitles so they are inside the image, so now you don't have to scale down scope content to make way for subs that go beyond the frame. Note that this only works for non-burned in subs.
> 
> This is the only feature I was missing from madVR. Now I am perfectly content! Hope this helps.
> 
> More info here on the Plex forums:
> 
> 
> https://forums.plex.tv/t/customizing-subtitle-appearance-in-plex-player-for-windows-mac-linux-and-plex-htpc-and-pmp/204096


Unfortunately, that will NOT work with non-text based subtitles such as PGS or ASS (the most common but there are a lot others).


----------



## ajbriones

YesAnotherTweet said:


> Unfortunately, that will NOT work with non-text based subtitles such as PGS or ASS (the most common but there are a lot others).


it looks like there are format override commands for ASS subs here. i’m looking for ASS sub content in my library to give it a play.






mpv.io


a free, open source, and cross-platform media player




mpv.io


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

ajbriones said:


> it looks like there are format override commands for ASS subs here. i’m looking for ASS sub content in my library to give it a play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mpv.io
> 
> 
> a free, open source, and cross-platform media player
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mpv.io


That would be cool if it works. PGS is locked a bit more so other than a few Blu-ray players (hardware models) there is very few ways to move them in real-time.


----------



## ajbriones

YesAnotherTweet said:


> That would be cool if it works. PGS is locked a bit more so other than a few Blu-ray players (hardware models) there is very few ways to move them in real-time.


I tried with a couple of PGS subs on discs I just ripped (Crouching Tiger, Raging FIre) and they work perfectly fine. I will keep looking, but at the least, it's wonderful to know that I no longer have to scale down a full scope image to see subs on foreign language films, and I can still resort to that if I run into that issue.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I have a variable masking system (Stewart EVO) and still to this day don't understand why anyone would want their masking system to be tied to the auto aspect detection of a processor. The masks would be moving unnecessarily for too many instances (random menu operation, random aspects in trailers, random pop ups from UI, etc). I vastly prefer manually selecting the masking aspect with a single button press so I know it will be what I want, when I want it and not randomly moving when it shouldn't be.


You are a technical person and it makes sense to you to do it this way. I have a variable mask screen and do have it set up full automatic from the Lumagen output. The family use our room without me and I like that they get things perfectly masked without thinking about it. I find it more annoying to have to change the screen manually than to occasionally get a screen movement I didn't want.

I have one small advantage in that it is top /bottom masking so I don't actually need to scale the image, as the scaling changes are a bit untidy still on the Lumagen (there is an incorrectly scaled frame in the middle of scaling changes usually).

Some of the things you mention around masks moving innoportunely are arguably things the Lumagen could offer a bit more control over, and I hope that if the AR detection speed is changed that there are some controls added to allow tuning of the AR detection. The current settings are arguably neither one thing nor the other - the detection is fairly slow, but not slow enough that things like chapter skip OSDs don't trigger it! I would like some controls over this to be able to tweak it.

If the AR detect just gets much faster without extra control over it I may have to add some external delay to AR switches via the control system.


----------



## picree

Kris Deering said:


> Left arrow allows you to fine tune the HDR parameters of that input, but changing the max light also changes the global max light.


What is the difference between the "MaxLight" found in the Output menus and "Global MaxLight" found in the Input menus (Left Arrow)? On my current setup they ended up slightly different so now I am confused...WTH?


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> IMO it is "double dumb" to change to 16:9 on an anamorphic screen. The first 'dumb" is I think changing aspect ratio in a movie/show is dumb. The second dumb for iMAX content that intent is for the 16:9 portion to be larger than the anamorphic portion. Allowing aspect changes that make the 16:9 portion smaller is just a very bad idea, and why I call it "double dumb."


Agreed 100%...I truly hope Directors like Christopher Nolan (the one who started it all) can stop this for movies moving forward. Stick to one aspect ratio and that's it.


----------



## desray2k

ajbriones said:


> I just updated to the latest firmware. It was super easy.
> 
> While doing so, I found a great option for those of you using Plex HTPC (or Plex) for greater control of subtitles. Creating an mpv.conf file with the flag --sub-use-margins=no will move subtitles so they are inside the image, so now you don't have to scale down scope content to make way for subs that go beyond the frame. Note that this only works for non-burned in subs.
> 
> This is the only feature I was missing from madVR. Now I am perfectly content! Hope this helps.
> 
> More info here on the Plex forums:
> 
> 
> https://forums.plex.tv/t/customizing-subtitle-appearance-in-plex-player-for-windows-mac-linux-and-plex-htpc-and-pmp/204096


Sigh...why can't streaming company like Netlfix provide user with an option to move subtitle offset, it will solve all these subtitle alignment issue with scope screen.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> With masking, or without, I strongly recommend that auto-aspect be disabled (even after we speed it up in the Radiance Pro) for content that changes aspect ratio.
> 
> If you want to see the aspect changes (I hate them but it is a personal choice and in the 16:9 screen case the director's intent), select 16:9 for the entire movie/show. If you want to watch on an anamorphic screen, select the content's anamorphic aspect (typically 2.40) and watch the entire movie/show in anamorphic mode.
> 
> IMO it is "double dumb" to change to 16:9 on an anamorphic screen. The first 'dumb" is I think changing aspect ratio in a movie/show is dumb. The second dumb for iMAX content that intent is for the 16:9 portion to be larger than the anamorphic portion. Allowing aspect changes that make the 16:9 portion smaller is just a very bad idea, and why I call it "double dumb." On an anamorphic screen watch the entire movie as anamorphic as the director intended, which is indicated by this is how they are shown in commercial theaters with anamorphic screens.


I have evolved to this line of thinking, though it's funny that it took me so long; I work in film, I should know better, but was so blinded by wanting to fill the scope frame with a large image.

I originally planned on getting a madVR Envy for my theater build because of instant aspect ratio changes, and built an HTPC with madVR to test out the instant zoom feature. While it's a nice trick and I was all about it at first, It completely does the opposite of the filmmaker's intent. I was so intent on seeing the largest version of the image I'm projecting that I neglected to factor in how those images are supposed to string together to tell a story.

The best example of this is Tron: Legacy. When Sam Flynn enters The Grid, the aspect ratio changes from scope to full frame to show that he has entered a different world, literally expanding his view. It's a wonderful transition.

I think the same thing goes for HDR DTM and post-processing. It's very easy with these new toys to aggressively over-correct and completely change the look of a film, in the same way that flat panel manufacturers crush their images in their presets so they appear more colorful and vibrant on the show floor.

Anyway, that's why I abandoned the idea of getting an Envy and got the Radiance Pro 4242 instead.

Just wanted to share.


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> Sigh...why can't streaming company like Netlfix provide user with an option to move subtitle offset, it will solve all these subtitle alignment issue with scope screen.


It is an issue with the AP for the app itself. I have a client that does a lot of the app work for the vendors (Google makes most of the app shells that Netflix, HBO, etc use) and this is a feature he is trying to push as he is a scope user as well. So hopefully that means we will see it at some point. The player is generating the subtitles, so it shouldn't be hard to implement.


----------



## thebland

For the Lumagen ‘non-power’ user - 

*What are the particular settings I should change / experiment with on this new pipeline software?* 

My current firmware is 6-8 months old and have been awaiting a production release to install the new pipeline. I’ve read Jim’s comments that uploading the new software doesn’t change any settings, but how best to take advantage of the firmware? Or if I change nothing will there be noticeable picture improvement? 

Thanks


----------



## bjorg

desray2k said:


> Agreed 100%...I truly hope Directors like Christopher Nolan (the one who started it all) can stop this for movies moving forward. Stick to one aspect ratio and that's it.


I, on the other hand, look forward to more variable AR content. The effect is awesome for setups that support it. Maybe they can offer both versions and let consumers choose.


----------



## jrp

picree said:


> What is the difference between the "MaxLight" found in the Output menus and "Global MaxLight" found in the Input menus (Left Arrow)? On my current setup they ended up slightly different so now I am confused...WTH?


The "Global Max Light" in the "Left Arrow HDR parameter" menu (same as HDR Setup button on Radiance Pro remote) is a back-door to changing the Max Light in the active CMS memory. At defaults the "Max Light" in CMS1 must be the same as the "Global Max Light" in the HDR parameter menu.

I would not expect any bugs that would allow them to be different in this case, but if you can reproduce these being different, please tell us how at lumagen.com support.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I, on the other hand, look forward to more variable AR content. The effect is awesome for setups that support it. Maybe they can offer both versions and let consumers choose.


Agree. Someone mentioned either in this thread or another that Disney+ are already doing this, with the different versions available for selection from the UI. Hope that is a trend that continues so people can watch the version most suited to their systems.

Likewise I quite enjoy the titles that do this, and when I've looked I've found automated 2.4 crops to look forced, but my screen is 16x9 masking down vertically to 2.4, so I am able to watch unmasked. 

I can see why people with scope screens find them frustrating, there isn't really a "no compromise" answer for them as to what to do with such content (especially as the scope crop cinemas use isn't always the centre crop), along with other issues like subtitle placement etc.


----------



## Craig Peer

bobof said:


> Agree. Someone mentioned either in this thread or another that Disney+ are already doing this, with the different versions available for selection from the UI. Hope that is a trend that continues so people can watch the version most suited to their systems.
> 
> Likewise I quite enjoy the titles that do this, and when I've looked I've found automated 2.4 crops to look forced, but my screen is 16x9 masking down vertically to 2.4, so I am able to watch unmasked.
> 
> I can see why people with scope screens find them frustrating, there isn't really a "no compromise" answer for them as to what to do with such content (especially as the scope crop cinemas use isn't always the centre crop), along with other issues like subtitle placement etc.


I find them somewhat irritating whether I watch them on my 16:9 or scope screen. With few exceptions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> With masking, or without, I strongly recommend that auto-aspect be disabled (even after we speed it up in the Radiance Pro) for content that changes aspect ratio.


Was watching the final bonus episode of Sandman the other day. The first 20 minutes of the episode is in one aspect ratio and the remaining 40 minutes in another. The auto-aspect, auto-masking change at the transition was a beautiful thing to behold 

It's interesting how polarising this issue seems to be, and how willing those who have no interest in using it are to repeatedly tell those who do not to ...


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Well, I have thought about this for my own theatre and the only way to emulate IMAX in a way that’s not annoying to me would be to have a 16:9 screen that’s as wide as I want scope content to be and have top masking.

In normal day to day use, you mask the top so you have scope and 16:9 same height. When watching IMAX
you could remove the top masking and set up the Lumagen as below if this was an option:

1. Instant aspect detection
2. For scope content, the content appears on the bottom of the screen as the black unmasked area is less annoying at the top. (Plus that’s how it adheres to correct image placement re eye level, etc.)
3. For IMAX aspect ratio, the screen could open up and shift the image up so the full frame is visible but the bottom row is still on the bottom.

I think this would be the least annoying while still getting the benefit of the IMAX shots. Yes, I understand there could be some issues of continuity with some shots where the shot opens up without a camera cut but I’d rather have that than having to watch black bars for the rest of the movie and have my neck twist

The other option is instant aspect change and force NLS on the IMAX shots. Yes, very very bad me, but if you’ve seen a movie 20x already how the director intended, who cares if you want to have fun with it…

Yet a third idea, a kind of halfway house, is to only unmask enough at the top to show the top part of the IMAX shots and electronically mask the image under the scope content so extra info only appears at the top. This can be easily done today with or without the Lumagen… as long as you have a 16:9 screen with top masking.

Just some ideas…


----------



## NinjaTypeR

… and yes, I agree that IMAX shots should be framed correctly for scope projection and that’s the “correct” way to watch them on a scope screen. However, implementing the IMAX experience could be possible if we were thinking about watching those shots bigger than we watch 16:9 content, albeit with minor compromises as above.


----------



## Clark Burk

I don’t want to take it too far off topic but I found this blog quite interesting.









How to Use Aspect Ratio as a Storytelling Tool


A film's aspect ratio can be an effective storytelling tool if used successfully. Let's analyze a few examples from Hollywood films to see how it's done.




www.soundstripe.com


----------



## Clark Burk

NinjaTypeR said:


> … and yes, I agree that IMAX shots should be framed correctly for scope projection and that’s the “correct” way to watch them on a scope screen. However, implementing the IMAX experience could be possible if we were thinking about watching those shots bigger than we watch 16:9 content, albeit with minor compromises as above.


I agree. Perhaps a 1.9:1 screen(IMAX) is another option. The compromise is the unmasked area of screen that will still be visible for certain content and how that affects your viewing.


----------



## Die Zwei

Clark Burk said:


> The compromise is the unmasked area of screen that will still be visible for certain content and how that affects your viewing.


Yes, and that´s the problem - at least for users with a masking system.
You can watch in scope only, cutting off content and losing director´s intent.
You can keep the format switches with a 16:9 or 1.9:1 screen, follow director´s intent, but getting mad about the unmasked areas for the scope scenes.
You can keep the format switches on a scope screen, not following the director´s intent because the IMAX scenes will actually be smaller than the scope scenes.
So pick your poison.
Actually, the only proper option would be to watch on a massive 16:9/1.9:1 display.


----------



## Mikesterz

I never experienced instant aspect but for those that have, it seems like a nice option to have. I would think it would be very beneficial when it comes to subtitles since it would eliminate the need to press up or down when you think there’s subtitles. 

The way auto aspect works now I do notice a jerkiness that definitely takes me away from the experience. It seems like a portion of the image changes aspect before the rest of the image. Perhaps implemented frame by frame, having instant aspect may be a nice thing. Again, I have no opinion on it since I never experienced it. I’m just going by what others have said about it.


----------



## bjorg

Die Zwei said:


> Actually, the only proper option would be to watch on a massive 16:9/1.9:1 display.


And on a screen that is emissive instead of reflective. Then the whole masking issue goes away. It really works nicely and the “big shots“ really enhance the viewing experience.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mikesterz said:


> I never experienced instant aspect but for those that have, it seems like a nice option to have. I would think it would be very beneficial when it comes to subtitles since it would eliminate the need to press up or down when you think there’s subtitles.


The problem is that it still can be annoying since it changes the whole image every time subtitles appear.
Best thing still would be if you could adjust the position of the subtitles itself.


----------



## bobof

Mikesterz said:


> I never experienced instant aspect but for those that have, it seems like a nice option to have. I would think it would be very beneficial when it comes to subtitles since it would eliminate the need to press up or down when you think there’s subtitles.


I can't think of anything more annoying than the framing shifting when subtitles appear! I've seen videos of the MadVR product doing it, and while I can see why scope users might choose to do it, it just looks awful to me. But I can just leave my bottom mask a little bit open instead...



Mikesterz said:


> The way auto aspect works now I do notice a jerkiness that definitely takes me away from the experience. It seems like a portion of the image changes aspect before the rest of the image. Perhaps implemented frame by frame, having instant aspect may be a nice thing. Again, I have no opinion on it since I never experienced it. I’m just going by what others have said about it.


There is definitely a little glitch during aspect (and zoom) changes. You can see it also if you zoom using the remote control - before arriving at the correct scaling there is a frame of incorrect (neither the original nor the target) scaling displayed. It is a bit untidy.


----------



## Mikesterz

Die Zwei said:


> The problem is that it still can be annoying since it changes the whole image every time subtitles appear.
> Best thing still would be if you could adjust the position of the subtitles itself.


It may be a bummer but what alternatives do we currently have? I wouldn’t want a whole move with black bars on the bottom when there’s minimal subtitles and I don’t want to lose out on any subtitles that may be in a movie.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mikesterz said:


> It may be a bummer but what alternatives do we currently have?


None. As i said - "pick your poison". And the best solution would be to move subtitles using the source player.
madVR has adjustable subtitles on the agenda, but i think that will be not easy to achieve and i wouldn´t expect it to be available anytime soon.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> It may be a bummer but what alternatives do we currently have? I wouldn’t want a whole move with black bars on the bottom when there’s minimal subtitles and I don’t want to lose out on any subtitles that may be in a movie.


Welcome to consumer video. There will always be cases that will trip something up, it can never always be perfect.


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> None. As i said - "pick your poison". And the best solution would be to move subtitles using the source player.
> madVR has adjustable subtitles on the agenda, but i think that will be not easy to achieve and i wouldn´t expect it to be available anytime soon.


MadVR for PC could probably move subtitles if the subtitles are generated by the PC. Envy is a different matter. Those subs are already embedded in the video frame, so there is absolutely no way to move them.


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> I can't think of anything more annoying than the framing shifting when subtitles appear! I've seen videos of the MadVR product doing it, and while I can see why scope users might choose to do it, it just looks awful to me. But I can just leave my bottom mask a little bit open instead...


Just to clarify - the Envy has a setting to have subtitles stick for a specific period in time or even until the end of the movie. So it doesn´t have to be permanently jumping back and forth.


Kris Deering said:


> MadVR for PC could probably move subtitles if the subtitles are generated by the PC. Envy is a different matter. Those subs are already embedded in the video frame, so there is absolutely no way to move them.


I did actually mean "madVR Labs", so i was refering to the Envy. You´re right, the subs are embedded into the stream. So they need to be cut-out, moved and the remaining parts need to be recreated/repaired. Madshi has that on the agenda, but even he doesn´t want to promise too much on this.


----------



## ajbriones

Die Zwei said:


> None. As i said - "pick your poison". And the best solution would be to move subtitles using the source player.
> madVR has adjustable subtitles on the agenda, but i think that will be not easy to achieve and i wouldn´t expect it to be available anytime soon.


After months playing with madVR instant aspect switching while actually watching movies all the way through, IMHO the best solution is to disable all that and screen the film in its native format (16:9) on a 2.40 CIH screen. That way, the correct intended effect occurs when the film aspect enlarges itself. In the dark, when fully immersed in the story, it’s fantastic.

It took me awhile (my post history shows it, as I was all about instant aspect switching at first), but once I made the mental switch from tech geek to projectionist/audience, I realized that all this post-process tweaking negatively affected my enjoyment of watching films.


----------



## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> MadVR for PC could probably move subtitles if the subtitles are generated by the PC. Envy is a different matter. Those subs are already embedded in the video frame, so there is absolutely no way to move them.


Can confirm that this works on an HTPC with madVR (Kodi/PlexConnect add-on/PGS ripped subs).


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> After months playing with madVR instant aspect switching while actually watching movies all the way through, IMHO the best solution is to disable all that and screen the film in its native format (16:9) on a 2.40 CIH screen. That way, the correct intended effect occurs when the film aspect enlarges itself. In the dark, when fully immersed in the story, it’s fantastic.
> 
> It took me awhile (my post history shows it, as I was all about instant aspect switching at first), but once I made the mental switch from tech geek to projectionist/audience, I realized that all this post-process tweaking negatively affected my enjoyment of watching films.


This. I have been saying this since the beginning. When that video came out from Australia about Envy's instant switching with NLS built in I wanted to throw a rock thru the screen. That was literally the worst application of auto switching I could think of and instead of making a video to EDUCATE the end user on aspect ratio and approaches, they were just like WOW look at how fast and seamless this is even though it is an awful idea. Even Madshi has commented on his dislike of NLS as even a concept. 

I'm great with the idea of faster aspect detection, and I know it is on Lumagen's list to do. As long as it doesn't cause issues with false detects. Aspect detection is not something I have a lot of issue with even now. I generally see a 3ish second delay in detection, but there are occasions when it feels like something is tripping it up and it isn't detecting when I think it should be (based on the content I'm seeing).


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> This. I have been saying this since the beginning. When that video came out from Australia about Envy's instant switching with NLS built in I wanted to throw a rock thru the screen. That was literally the worst application of auto switching I could think of and instead of making a video to EDUCATE the end user on aspect ratio and approaches, they were just like WOW look at how fast and seamless this is even though it is an awful idea. Even Madshi has commented on his dislike of NLS as even a concept.


Well, it´s also an awful idea to pour cocoa powder onto a cappuccino, but people do it anyway...
Some people just hate to have empty area on their screen real estate, so they try everything to fill it. A video processor is just a tool - it can be used for the good, but also for the bad.


----------



## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> This. I have been saying this since the beginning. When that video came out from Australia about Envy's instant switching with NLS built in I wanted to throw a rock thru the screen. That was literally the worst application of auto switching I could think of and instead of making a video to EDUCATE the end user on aspect ratio and approaches, they were just like WOW look at how fast and seamless this is even though it is an awful idea. Even Madshi has commented on his dislike of NLS as even a concept.
> 
> I'm great with the idea of faster aspect detection, and I know it is on Lumagen's list to do. As long as it doesn't cause issues with false detects. Aspect detection is not something I have a lot of issue with even now. I generally see a 3ish second delay in detection, but there are occasions when it feels like something is tripping it up and it isn't detecting when I think it should be (based on the content I'm seeing).


It’s wild to me that NLS is even a thing. So gross.


----------



## bosler.bruce

ajbriones said:


> It’s wild to me that NLS is even a thing. So gross.


I like it for football games


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> It’s wild to me that NLS is even a thing. So gross.


I don’t have an issue with NLS as a tool and I have a lot of clients that use it. I don’t. But to use it for the random 16x9 scenes in a movie that is scope most of the time is definitely not what I would recommend to anyone.


----------



## Naiera

Most of this CIH stuff is going right over my head, but I googled NLS.

OMFG plz don't do that


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

Die Zwei said:


> Well, it´s also an awful idea to pour cocoa powder onto a cappuccino, but people do it anyway...


Whoever does this is a sociopath and should be in prison for life. YUCK!


----------



## picree

jrp said:


> At defaults the "Max Light" in CMS1 must be the same as the "Global Max Light" in the HDR parameter menu.
> 
> I would not expect any bugs that would allow them to be different in this case, but if you can reproduce these being different, please tell us how at lumagen.com support.


My mistake. No bug. While in CMS0 (SDR) the left arrow will show CMS0 MaxLight (500). But while displaying CMS0 and checking CMS1 (HDR) I saw CMS1 MaxLight of 540. Confused me as I didn't realize MaxLight is CMS-specific but LowRatio, DynPad, and DeSat settings are global across all CMS's. I expected them to either all be global or all specific to a CMS.


----------



## ajbriones

Die Zwei said:


> Well, it´s also an awful idea to pour cocoa powder onto a cappuccino, but people do it anyway...


My other hobby besides home theater is home espresso, and boy did this trigger me.


----------



## Die Zwei

So at least it seems we´re all on the same page with regards to cappuccino.


----------



## Javs

Die Zwei said:


> So at least it seems we´re all on the same page with regards to cappuccino.


No I like chocolate powder on top sometimes, even a teaspoon of Milo in there too!... Love it.

I dont ever put actual sugar granules in coffee though.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Javs said:


> No I like chocolate powder on top sometimes, even a teaspoon of Milo in there too!... Love it.
> 
> I dont ever put actual sugar granules in coffee though.


Long black for me. Milo in a coffe! I’ve heard it all hahahaha


----------



## Kris Deering

picree said:


> My mistake. No bug. While in CMS0 (SDR) the left arrow will show CMS0 MaxLight (500). But while displaying CMS0 and checking CMS1 (HDR) I saw CMS1 MaxLight of 540. Confused me as I didn't realize MaxLight is CMS-specific but LowRatio, DynPad, and DeSat settings are global across all CMS's. I expected them to either all be global or all specific to a CMS.


CMS0 does not use any HDR settings if it is setup for SDR. There are settings in there that are just the baseline global settings, but they are not used unless DTM is enabled (it is not for CMS0 by default). If you change the HDR settings for an input, it is specific to that input, it is not global for other inputs or other CMSs, with the exception of changing the max light.


----------



## Kris Deering

Also, I don't understand how anyone can drink coffee. And this is from someone that retired from the Navy with over 20 years in. That stuff is vile..................LOL


----------



## ajbriones

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but looking for calibrator recommendations in Los Angeles (Epson LS12000 with LRP, Kaleidescape, Oppo 205, ATV4K, HTPC sources). Also, is it ideal to wait until all the window treatments are done before getting someone in to calibrate? We don’t have basements in CA, so our theater is on the 3rd floor.


----------



## dlinsley

Kris Deering said:


> Also, I don't understand how anyone can drink coffee. And this is from someone that retired from the Navy with over 20 years in. That stuff is vile..................LOL


One too many of these experiences?


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> This. I have been saying this since the beginning. When that video came out from Australia about Envy's instant switching with NLS built in I wanted to throw a rock thru the screen. That was literally the worst application of auto switching I could think of and instead of making a video to EDUCATE the end user on aspect ratio and approaches, they were just like WOW look at how fast and seamless this is even though it is an awful idea. Even Madshi has commented on his dislike of NLS as even a concept.
> 
> I'm great with the idea of faster aspect detection, and I know it is on Lumagen's list to do. As long as it doesn't cause issues with false detects. Aspect detection is not something I have a lot of issue with even now. I generally see a 3ish second delay in detection, but there are occasions when it feels like something is tripping it up and it isn't detecting when I think it should be (based on the content I'm seeing).


No, you haven't been saying this. ajbriones is saying to windowbox shifting AR content natively on a scope screen, you've been saying to crop it.

In any event, funny you putting words in Madshi's mouth as if their company isn't ever tired of your demeaning rhetoric towards their achievements.


----------



## silver700

Kris Deering said:


> This. I have been saying this since the beginning. When that video came out from Australia about Envy's instant switching with NLS built in I wanted to throw a rock thru the screen. That was literally the worst application of auto switching I could think of and instead of making a video to EDUCATE the end user on aspect ratio and approaches, they were just like WOW look at how fast and seamless this is even though it is an awful idea. Even Madshi has commented on his dislike of NLS as even a concept.
> 
> I'm great with the idea of faster aspect detection, and I know it is on Lumagen's list to do. As long as it doesn't cause issues with false detects. Aspect detection is not something I have a lot of issue with even now. I generally see a 3ish second delay in detection, but there are occasions when it feels like something is tripping it up and it isn't detecting when I think it should be (based on the content I'm seeing).


Do you feel this way because processors like Madvr Extreme do not implement this well, ie slow to change image size, or as a concept that you don't believe in NLS instant switching. Reason I ask is because one of the biggest features that Madvr Pro and Extreme market is the instant switching of aspect ratios. One of the reasons I can see someone moving from Lumagen to the Extreme, although I do understand there are not a ton of movies that change aspect ratio. ( I am slow to this discussion so if I misread what you were trying to convey I apologize in advance)


----------



## FenceMan

silver700 said:


> Do you feel this way because processors like Madvr Extreme do not implement this well, ie slow to change image size, or as a concept that you don't believe in NLS instant switching. Reason I ask is because one of the biggest features that Madvr Pro and Extreme market is the instant switching of aspect ratios. One of the reasons I can see someone moving from Lumagen to the Extreme, although I do understand there are not a ton of movies that change aspect ratio. ( I am slow to this discussion so if I misread what you were trying to convey I apologize in advance)


MadVR is instant and seamless. You're better off asking people that own them not people with zero frame of reference.

Also Envy doesn't have to switch, it can do exactly what Lumagen suggests if that is what the user wants. The choice isn't Envy or LRP because as far as AR goes Envy can do it either way. You don't need a Lumagen to do what they suggest, you do need an Envy to do instant switching.


----------



## ajbriones

silver700 said:


> Do you feel this way because processors like Madvr Extreme do not implement this well, ie slow to change image size, or as a concept that you don't believe in NLS instant switching. Reason I ask is because one of the biggest features that Madvr Pro and Extreme market is the instant switching of aspect ratios. One of the reasons I can see someone moving from Lumagen to the Extreme, although I do understand there are not a ton of movies that change aspect ratio. ( I am slow to this discussion so if I misread what you were trying to convey I apologize in advance)


I can answer this from the perspective of someone who built a madVR PC thinking this was exactly what I wanted (auto aspect ratio switching on a film like Interstellar) before canceling my Envy order and picking up a Radiance Pro 4242. At some point, once the allure of the fancy tech fades, you have to watch a movie. And from that perspective, it's terrible.

I've been into home theater since laserdisc and the introduction of letterboxing widescreen content for home video vs. pan-and-scan. It used to be that we fought and strove to display films in our home cinemas in their best light, as the director originally intended. We had to educate our parents and friends on aspect ratio and why it's better to have a smaller image on screen and how letterbox presentation meant we were seeing the complete image from the cinema.

As flat panels became better, we had to educate our friends and parents yet again on why motion smoothing and over-processed image profiles are terrible.

We are entering strange territory in the home theater space as video processors become more powerful. With NLS, instant auto-aspect switching, motion smoothing and over-correcting DTM, these tools that were meant to help our projectors display films as intended by the filmmakers can be over-used to change and distort those images away from their original intent just so we can fill a frame like our parents used to.


----------



## FenceMan

You guys are crucifying Envy over what it can do which is ridiculous. Are all cars inherently unsafe because they can go fast? Driver controls the car and user controls the VP. You can't fault a product for giving someone options, that is completely ridiculous.


----------



## ajbriones

FenceMan said:


> You guys are crucifying Envy over what it can do which is ridiculous. Are all cars inherently unsafe because they can go fast? Driver controls the car and user controls the VP. You can't fault a product for giving someone options, that is completely ridiculous.


Not at all. I loved it, and the UI is objectively better. It's also got a huge plus with subtitle positioning, but it's something I can correct with a Plex ini file and on my Oppo. That said, after using madVR I realized I don't need the features that it can do over the LRP, so why pay the premium? Also, the 1U form factor saves space.

EDIT: You can just as easily distort the image on an LRP as you can an Envy. As the saying goes, "With great power..."


----------



## bosler.bruce

FenceMan said:


> You guys are crucifying Envy over what it can do which is ridiculous.


since you are such an Envy fanboy, why are you hanging out in the Lumagen forum?

I think you want to be over here >>>> MadVR


----------



## DigitalAV

Fun fact: being an adult and with a bit of tact, anyone can own a Lumagen Radiance Pro _and_ respect the ingenuity of a competing product, or vice-versa. No feeling precious or threatened required!


----------



## picree

Kris Deering said:


> CMS0 does not use any HDR settings if it is setup for SDR. There are settings in there that are just the baseline global settings, but they are not used unless DTM is enabled (it is not for CMS0 by default).


Yes CMS0 (SDR) does not use HDR but the settings are there. While in CMS1 (HDR) I tested by changing LowRatio, DynPad, and DeSat for that CMS. I went back to CMS0 to see what was there. The values changed for that CMS too. So I assumed those were Global settings. But maybe since HDR was not enabled I was just looking at the changes to the Global baseline? No biggie. Just a tad confused.

EDIT: Interestingly though when I do the same test for MaxLight the value doesn't change in the other CMS. Is MaxLight treated any differently between/amongst the CMS registers than LowRatio, DynPad, and DeSat?


----------



## Kris Deering

dlinsley said:


> One too many of these experiences?
> 
> View attachment 3342955


Definitely not, I worked for the other Navy


----------



## Kris Deering

silver700 said:


> Do you feel this way because processors like Madvr Extreme do not implement this well, ie slow to change image size, or as a concept that you don't believe in NLS instant switching. Reason I ask is because one of the biggest features that Madvr Pro and Extreme market is the instant switching of aspect ratios. One of the reasons I can see someone moving from Lumagen to the Extreme, although I do understand there are not a ton of movies that change aspect ratio. ( I am slow to this discussion so if I misread what you were trying to convey I apologize in advance)


It has nothing to do with the speed of the switching, it is the director's intent. 

ALL switching aspect movies are designed to be watched in essentially two viewing conditions: IMAX (theatrical) or with a 16x9 screen. BOTH of these viewing conditions maintain the WIDTH of the images and change the vertical size because both of these screen types work with that in mind. Switching aspect movies were never intended for scope screens. ALL of these movies were shown in constant image height (scope) theatrically outside of IMAX. If the director wanted to preserve the height, he could have released them in 1.78 or any other aspect theatrically outside of IMAX, but that has NEVER been the case. 

So now you are watching these on a scope screen. We already know director's intent, and it wasn't to switch back and forth between two widths (which is all that is changing). NLS stretches and crops the image to fit, which is not what the director wanted either. So it is pretty simple to just lock the aspect at scope when the movie starts and watch it that way. Framing may be slightly off, but I doubt it is off enough that you'd even notice unless you had a reference side by side that was theatrical framing to compare to (which no one likely does). 

If you want to watch the content as it is encoded, just set the aspect to 16x9 locked when the film starts and you will see EXACTLY what the disc/source is trying to achieve, but you'll have pillar boxes on the sides of the image.


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> Not at all. I loved it, and the UI is objectively better. It's also got a huge plus with subtitle positioning, but it's something I can correct with a Plex ini file and on my Oppo. That said, after using madVR I realized I don't need the features that it can do over the LRP, so why pay the premium? Also, the 1U form factor saves space.
> 
> EDIT: You can just as easily distort the image on an LRP as you can an Envy. As the saying goes, "With great power..."


Have you tried the subtitle stuff that Lumagen added recently?


----------



## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> Have you tried the subtitle stuff that Lumagen added recently?


If you mean the latest firmware where if I arrow down it scales down the image and moves it up slightly to show the second line of subtitles, I have tried it yes, and I like it very much. I think that will work great with burned-in sub content. However, the .ini file I added to Plex to render subs over video is something I prefer because I can retain full use of the height of my screen for the image.

What's great is I feel like I have everything I need now. It was the only feature in madVR that I was missing.


----------



## Clark Burk

FenceMan said:


> You guys are crucifying Envy over what it can do which is ridiculous. Are all cars inherently unsafe because they can go fast? Driver controls the car and user controls the VP. You can't fault a product for giving someone options, that is completely ridiculous.


I don’t think that’s the issue. Envy is making a big deal that instant switching is something you really must have and that’s why you need to buy an Envy. It’s just another manufacturer trying to convince you that a feature they offer is a must have and if you don’t have it you will regret buying the other product. 
It’s great marketing as apparently many have taken the bait.


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> If you mean the latest firmware where if I arrow down it scales down the image and moves it up slightly to show the second line of subtitles, I have tried it yes, and I like it very much. I think that will work great with burned-in sub content. However, the .ini file I added to Plex to render subs over video is something I prefer because I can retain full use of the height of my screen for the image.
> 
> What's great is I feel like I have everything I need now. It was the only feature in madVR that I was missing.


Good to hear. My Oppo has the ability to shift and Kaleidescape has a feature that always puts the subs into the active image window that works great as well. My ATV is the only issue. I am still hoping at some point they will offer subtitle movement since they already allow you to do a ton of other things to the subs already. Why movements haven't been added is a total mystery given everything else they allow you to do.


----------



## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> Good to hear. My Oppo has the ability to shift and Kaleidescape has a feature that always puts the subs into the active image window that works great as well. My ATV is the only issue. I am still hoping at some point they will offer subtitle movement since they already allow you to do a ton of other things to the subs already. Why movements haven't been added is a total mystery given everything else they allow you to do.


Yep, like you I'm sorted on K and Oppo. ATV4k is the remaining issue. Hopefully they'll update.


----------



## silver700

Kris Deering said:


> It has nothing to do with the speed of the switching, it is the director's intent.
> 
> ALL switching aspect movies are designed to be watched in essentially two viewing conditions: IMAX (theatrical) or with a 16x9 screen. BOTH of these viewing conditions maintain the WIDTH of the images and change the vertical size because both of these screen types work with that in mind. Switching aspect movies were never intended for scope screens. ALL of these movies were shown in constant image height (scope) theatrically outside of IMAX. If the director wanted to preserve the height, he could have released them in 1.78 or any other aspect theatrically outside of IMAX, but that has NEVER been the case.
> 
> So now you are watching these on a scope screen. We already know director's intent, and it wasn't to switch back and forth between two widths (which is all that is changing). NLS stretches and crops the image to fit, which is not what the director wanted either. So it is pretty simple to just lock the aspect at scope when the movie starts and watch it that way. Framing may be slightly off, but I doubt it is off enough that you'd even notice unless you had a reference side by side that was theatrical framing to compare to (which no one likely does).
> 
> If you want to watch the content as it is encoded, just set the aspect to 16x9 locked when the film starts and you will see EXACTLY what the disc/source is trying to achieve, but you'll have pillar boxes on the sides of the image.


Oh ok, makes sense.


----------



## FenceMan

Clark Burk said:


> I don’t think that’s the issue. Envy is making a big deal that instant switching is something you really must have and that’s why you need to buy an Envy. It’s just another manufacturer trying to convince you that a feature they offer is a must have and if you don’t have it you will regret buying the other product.
> It’s great marketing as apparently many have taken the bait.


All I am saying is they are offering options and everyone seems to be saying Lumagen does this and Envy does that as if you are boxed into one thing or another if you own an Envy - you are not, the choice is yours to make. 

TBH the marketing I disagree with from CEDIA is the pushing of NLS in conjunction with aspect switching as a good thing - I do not approve of that at all, if people want it great give them the option but I don't agree with making it the focus of the marketing campaign. And even this I just leave off, they can sell it as a huge thing but I don't have to use it.


----------



## Die Zwei

DigitalAV said:


> In any event, funny you putting words in Madshi's mouth


Well, in that case, he´s right. Madshi mentioned a couple of times in the forum that he personally wouldn´t use this feature. But well, he´s dedicated to the customer and is not developing for his own private use and since there was high customer demand, he implemented it.
And btw, he mentioned he´s actually using it now himself on some occasions.  But he wouldn´t use it on movies (which is my opinion as well).
Overall, i agree that the installer/dealer/consultant should at least inform the client about things like director´s intent. But don´t overeducate on this - after all, it should be up the user to decide on the usage of his tools.


----------



## Mikesterz

Die Zwei said:


> Well, in that case, he´s right. Madshi mentioned a couple of times in the forum that he personally wouldn´t use this feature. But well, he´s dedicated to the customer and is not developing for his own private use and since there was high customer demand, he implemented it.
> And btw, he mentioned he´s actually using it now himself on some occasions.  But he wouldn´t use it on movies (which is my opinion as well).
> Overall, i agree that the installer/dealer/consultant should at least inform the client about things like director´s intent. But don´t overeducate on this - after all, it should be up the user to decide on the usage of his tools.


So basically you’re saying there are other benefits to instant aspect change that’s not related to movie watching? Again I never tested this but I don’t see why it’s an issue to go from 2.35 to 1.78 and back again during a movie as long as it’s implemented properly and without judder. I would rather directors just choose 2.35 and put subtitles within the aspect, but since we have no control over it, I’d like to test out this option with the lumagen.


----------



## Die Zwei

Mikesterz said:


> So basically you’re saying there are other benefits to instant aspect change that’s not related to movie watching? Again I never tested this but I don’t see why it’s an issue to go from 2.35 to 1.78 and back again during a movie as long as it’s implemented properly and without judder. I would rather directors just choose 2.35 and put subtitles within the aspect, but since we have no control over it, I’d like to test out this option with the lumagen.


I was refering to NLS (and using it to fill the screen for 16:9/1.9:1 scenes) in post #17.700 as that is what Kris was refering to in his post.
I agree that moving from 2.35 to 1.78 and back can be a good option for some (and in fact most of our clients use that for format switching movies), but i also agree with Kris that this isn´t something the director intended with it.


----------



## audioguy

Die Zwei said:


> I was refering to NLS (and using it to fill the screen for 16:9/1.9:1 scenes) in post #17.700 as that is what Kris was refering to in his post.
> *I agree that moving from 2.35 to 1.78 and back can be a good option for some (and in fact most of our clients use that for format switching movies), but i also agree with Kris that this isn´t something the director intended with it.*


And in those cases, aspect switching (on my Lumagen) needs to be a LOT faster (virtually instantaneous) than it is now. In my system, while I have never actually timed it (but I will), I suspect the switching can take more than 5+ seconds (or more) on some occasions. So until that is addressed, I much prefer to lock the aspect onto 2:35 for the entire movie. Having the wrong aspect sitting on the screen (e.g. a 2:35 image that needs to be larger) completely takes me out of the experience - much more so than an 16:9 image that is stretched to 2:35 less than perfectly.

As for NLS, I continue to try and get a reasonable looking stretched image when watching college football - but so far, have not made that work (for me) successfully.


----------



## tigerhonaker

FenceMan said:


> You guys are crucifying Envy over what it can do which is ridiculous. Are all cars inherently unsafe because they can go fast? Driver controls the car and user controls the VP. You can't fault a product for giving someone options, that is completely ridiculous.


*New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
Dedicated Thread ............*

Terry


----------



## DigitalAV

Die Zwei said:


> Well, in that case, he´s right. Madshi mentioned a couple of times in the forum that he personally wouldn´t use this feature. But well, he´s dedicated to the customer and is not developing for his own private use and since there was high customer demand, he implemented it.
> And btw, he mentioned he´s actually using it now himself on some occasions.  But he wouldn´t use it on movies (which is my opinion as well).
> Overall, i agree that the installer/dealer/consultant should at least inform the client about things like director´s intent. But don´t overeducate on this - after all, it should be up the user to decide on the usage of his tools.


Don't take my word for it -- I encourage you to PM madVR's principals (Mathias and Richard) and ask them what they think of Kris using Mathias's personal preferences as ammunition to belabor Kris's already expressed-to-death opinion of "literally the worst application of auto switching" and an "awful idea."

Even if you don't like the idea or current application, respect for the tech can still be a thing.


----------



## bosler.bruce

DigitalAV said:


> Don't take my word for it --* I encourage you* to PM madVR's principals


I come here to find out things about the Lumagen. I chose a Lumagen based upon my research which indicates it does an excellent job of video processing and it costs significantly less than an Envy.

I could not possibly care less about what an Envy does or does not do, why it does it, how the principals use it, or what they do or do not think about Kris.

*I encourage* all the Envy fanboys to go elsewhere so we can de-clutter this forum and discuss the Lumagen. Can the moderators just block them so we can get on with using this forum as it is intended?


----------



## DigitalAV

bosler.bruce said:


> I come here to find out things about the Lumagen. I chose a Lumagen based upon my research which indicates it does an excellent job of video processing and it costs significantly less than an Envy.
> 
> I could not possibly care less about what an Envy does or does not do, why it does it, how the principals use it, or what they do or do not think about Kris.
> 
> *I encourage* all the Envy fanboys to go elsewhere so we can de-clutter this forum and discuss the Lumagen.


Wasn't talking to you. I also own a Lumagen and was responding to the discussion about he competing product that Kris was going on about for no apparent reason.


----------



## Kris Deering

Guess there is some drama stirring. I can't see any of it, it must be people I have on block. As I've said before, there are very good reasons I have them on block.


----------



## FenceMan

bosler.bruce said:


> I come here to find out things about the Lumagen. I chose a Lumagen based upon my research which indicates it does an excellent job of video processing and it costs significantly less than an Envy.
> 
> I could not possibly care less about what an Envy does or does not do, why it does it, how the principals use it, or what they do or do not think about Kris.
> 
> *I encourage* all the Envy fanboys to go elsewhere so we can de-clutter this forum and discuss the Lumagen. Can the moderators just block them so we can get on with using this forum as it is intended?


I really don't want to stir the pot but come on, you want to censor people like me for simply stating facts? You don't have to be a "fanboy" to simply set the record straight.

Maybe you have made your decision but maybe others have not. We should not confuse people by painting the Envy as something that as soon as you plug it in applies multiple director intent breaking features that somehow gives Lumagen a head up. This is simply not true, you can love or hate the options (I hate NLS) and are not forced to use any of them. If you feel any are a hinderance to your personal experience then turn them on or off accordingly simple as that and no need to censor a simple statement such as this.


----------



## DigitalAV

Kris Deering said:


> Guess there is some drama stirring. I can't see any of it, it must be people I have on block. As I've said before, there are very good reasons I have them on block.


Maybe take some responsibility for being the one to stir up drama for once. You've already admitted to reading my posts but by all means keep acting like a blameless tween


----------



## Die Zwei

DigitalAV said:


> Even if you don't like the idea or current application, respect for the tech can still be a thing.


Kris didn´t comment on the tech, he commented on how it´s used in a video. He doesn´t like how it´s used (and explained why). Others like it. So what´s the issue?


----------



## bjorg

To bring this thread a little bit back on track, I’ve customized the behavior of my setup to only adjust the AR when it decreases in the movie. Let’s say the movie starts at 2.40, but then opens up for IMAX scenes to 1.9, the automation will instruct the LRP to adjust the image. However, when it goes back to 2.40, the LRP‘s image remains unchanged. This behavior also works great when sub-titles are shown that might not fit entirely initially. For me, this avoids the need for fast acting AR detection and prevents unnecessary back and forth. I only implemented this _one-way only_ adjustment after watching _Everything, Everywhere, All at Once_. If you‘ve seen it, you know why!


----------



## Karl Maga

The reflexive apoplexy for anything perceived as being critical of Envy would be a curious aberration were it not predictable and worn out. @FenceMan once characterized practitioners of such behavior as a "Hit Squad" or some such disparaging term, yet he is the first to exhibit it. SMH.

Of late, he's got @DigitalAV sucked into the vortex. Oh well.

Put a little bit of skin thickener on gents, Kris merely mentioned his reaction to the usage of aspect switching promoted by MadVR in a very specific instance, and was critical only of the usage, not the technology.


----------



## DigitalAV

Karl Maga said:


> The reflexive apoplexy for anything perceived as being critical of Envy would be a curious aberration were it not predictable and worn out. @FenceMan once characterized practitioners of such behavior as a "Hit Squad" or some such disparaging term, yet he is the first to exhibit it. SMH.
> 
> Of late, he's got @DigitalAV sucked into the vortex. Oh well.
> 
> Put a little bit of skin thickener on gents, Kris merely mentioned his reaction to the usage of aspect switching promoted by MadVR in a very specific instance, and was critical only of the usage, not the technology.


If you want this dumb discussion to stop then don't mention me. I've said my piece


----------



## FenceMan

Karl Maga said:


> The reflexive apoplexy for anything perceived as being critical of Envy would be a curious aberration were it not predictable and worn out. @FenceMan once characterized practitioners of such behavior as a "Hit Squad" or some such disparaging term, yet he is the first to exhibit it. SMH.
> 
> Of late, he's got @DigitalAV sucked into the vortex. Oh well.
> 
> Put a little bit of skin thickener on gents, Kris merely mentioned his reaction to the usage of aspect switching promoted by MadVR in a very specific instance, and was critical only of the usage, not the technology.


This is two different things.

I was not taking issue with anything Kris said. I was taking issue with this -



ajbriones said:


> I can answer this from the perspective of someone who built a madVR PC thinking this was exactly what I wanted (auto aspect ratio switching on a film like Interstellar) before canceling my Envy order and picking up a Radiance Pro 4242. At some point, once the allure of the fancy tech fades, you have to watch a movie. *And from that perspective, it's terrible.*


That just makes it sound like aspect ratio is forced upon the end user when it is not. OP did not have to buy a Lumagen to avoid aspect switching - it can be shut off on the Envy. Side note - you seem to want to keep engaging me on some low level which I have no interest in doing. We can agree to disagree on processor choice without slinging mud....


----------



## Craig Peer

bjorg said:


> To bring this thread a little bit back on track, I’ve customized the behavior of my setup to only adjust the AR when it decreases in the movie. Let’s say the movie starts at 2.40, but then opens up for IMAX scenes to 1.9, the automation will instruct the LRP to adjust the image. However, when it goes back to 2.40, the LRP‘s image remains unchanged. This behavior also works great when sub-titles are shown that might not fit entirely initially. For me, this avoids the need for fast acting AR detection and prevents unnecessary back and forth. *I only implemented this one-way only adjustment after watching Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. If you‘ve seen it, you know why!*


That movie is all over the place aspect ratio wise! I just watch it on my taller 16:9 screen and call it good.


----------



## bosler.bruce

and here we are

I know you are, but what am I


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I loaded 090922 on the 9/21 and then another candidate dropped a few days later. Is there any real reason I should update again before a final release is dropped?


----------



## Michael-S

audioguy said:


> And in those cases, aspect switching (on my Lumagen) needs to be a LOT faster (virtually instantaneous) than it is now. In my system, while I have never actually timed it (but I will), I suspect the switching can take more than 5+ seconds (or more) on some occasions. So until that is addressed, I much prefer to lock the aspect onto 2:35 for the entire movie. Having the wrong aspect sitting on the screen (e.g. a 2:35 image that needs to be larger) completely takes me out of the experience - much more so than an 16:9 image that is stretched to 2:35 less than perfectly.
> 
> As for NLS, I continue to try and get a reasonable looking stretched image when watching college football - but so far, have not made that work (for me) successfully.


This (college FB) would be an example of when I might have interest in NLS, but I always react to it negatively whenever I try it.

It's too bad, because my favorite aspect ratio is 2.4:1; any time I view something in that AR I simply love it.


----------



## jrp

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I loaded 090922 on the 9/21 and then another candidate dropped a few days later. Is there any real reason I should update again before a final release is dropped?


The second production candidate was a bug fix release to the first one. No big reason to update if all is working with the one you have.


----------



## jrp

A Radiance Pro owner found a bug in the 091922 release when using vertical shift and output shrink (I believe). So it will not become the production release.

Pat started working on the bug fix but then left for vacation. When he returns on October 17, he will complete the bug fix and do another production candidate release. Then we will get back on the desaturation work.

This restarts the clock on desaturation. So now I am _hoping_ for an Alpha release for desaturation late November. Then we will get on fast auto aspect.

As I have discussed the current auto-aspect has a lot of extra checks and delays since it had to account for aspect changes from VCR tapes and other analog sources. While still a lot of work, speeding up auto aspect is mostly taking out all the special cases for analog sources. Since a lot of this is in the FPGA, it will take some time to complete.

Once we have fast auto-aspect, it should still _not_ be used for aspect changes within a movie. Watch iMAX, and other content, that changes aspect all as 16:9 for iMAX mode, or all as anamorphic for anamorphic mode. No offense meant to those who like the 16:9 sections shown smaller than 2.40 sections on an anamorphic screen but changing aspect for the 16:9 sections on an anamorphic screen is diametrically opposed to director's intent for anamorphic screens. I am glad to see some more people are realizing this.


----------



## jrp

Michael-S said:


> This (college FB) would be an example of when I might have interest in NLS, but I always react to it negatively whenever I try it.
> 
> It's too bad, because my favorite aspect ratio is 2.4:1; any time I view something in that AR I simply love it.


A method I like better than NLS would be to set up a second Style for MEMB using the output Setup Menu for the 2.40 screen.

Then in the the second Style, set the output aspect to "Single output aspect" and select output aspect as 2.2. Then select "output aspect per input aspect" and change 2.35 to have a 2.35 output aspect, and 2.40 to have a 2.40 output aspect. This is a 9% horizontal stretch for all content up to 2.0. For 2.2 content it will fill the screen. This is likely not perceivable, and reduces the size of the pillar box bars.

For this mode you would then select MEMB and continue to use MEMA for "correct" aspect ratios. If you like this enough you can use it for all content.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> No offense meant to those who like the 16:9 sections shown smaller than 2.40 sections on an anamorphic screen but changing aspect for the 16:9 sections on an anamorphic screen is diametrically opposed to director's intent for anamorphic screens. I am glad to see some more people are realizing this.


Agreed. I was hesitant to get on a soapbox about this. I know very little about home theater, but I have spent my entire career designing sequences and creating images for feature films, some of which end up as demo content (my IMDB: A.J. Briones - IMDb). There is so much work involved in stringing together these images so they work in concert to tell a story, and while NLS butchers the film's image as a whole, intermittent aspect ratio changes disrupts the contextual continuity from shot-to-shot. I fell for the allure of this at first too, and I should damn well know better, so I get why it's so appealing.

This morning I saw a youtube video from AVNirvana about the Trinnov room at Cedia 2022 and it boggles my mind that they spared no expense designing and building an amazing theater which must sound ridiculous, projected from a laser Barco, but then they went and distorted the image with NLS. This is not a knock at MadVR only, because both the Envy and the LRP can do NLS, but at an industry show, I was appalled that the MadVR marketing person was touting the virtues of taking a 1.78 image and squeezing/stretching it to fit 2.40.

I can tell you since I have worked with Joseph Kosinski in the past, though not on Top Gun: Maverick, that if he took one step in that theater, the first thing he would say is, "WTF. Something is wrong with the projection."


----------



## NinjaTypeR

So let’s recap… 
1. We tell people they are wrong to want something that’s not director’s intent. (I actually agree but I really don’t care if they want to watch bloody IMAX on a postage stamp as long as they are happy.) 
2. We ignore other ideas that could re-create IMAX at home and for which instant switching would be helpful. (Although maybe it’s our fault for not explaining things clearly enough.)

if AVS was a company and I was the managing director (CEO for you Americans), I would tell people… good conversation. While not super high-priority, let’s go and implement this thing, with a user-configurable delay so everyone is happy (once again).


----------



## bobof

NinjaTypeR said:


> 2. We ignore other ideas that could re-create IMAX at home and for which instant switching would be helpful. (Although maybe it’s our fault for not explaining things clearly enough.)


Is anyone ignoring ideas to re-create IMAX? Surely there's only one  - a big 16:9 / 1.9:1 ish screen?
Nothing else is re-creating IMAX. At best it's trying to fudge something a bit like the 'scope cinematic release (ish). The IMAX-ness surely is the thing that just can't be re-created on a scope screen (unless the scope screen happens to be HUGE and is usually masked smaller for real scope content).


----------



## ajbriones

bobof said:


> Is anyone ignoring ideas to re-create IMAX? Surely there's only one  - a big 16:9 / 1.9:1 ish screen?
> Nothing else is re-creating IMAX. At best it's trying to fudge something a bit like the 'scope cinematic release (ish). The IMAX-ness surely is the thing that just can't be re-created on a scope screen (unless the scope screen happens to be HUGE and is usually masked smaller for real scope content).


Wall-height 16:9, where you mask out 12% of the top and bottom and treat the remainder as a CIH 2.40 screen to project 1.33-2.40 content to, then you only take away the vertical masking for IMAX/multi-format would be I think what you're describing, yeah?

It's what I wanted to do, but I wanted motorized masking and I don't have the budget for the current 4-way masking solutions.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

bobof said:


> Is anyone ignoring ideas to re-create IMAX? Surely there's only one  - a big 16:9 / 1.9:1 ish screen?
> Nothing else is re-creating IMAX. At best it's trying to fudge something a bit like the 'scope cinematic release (ish). The IMAX-ness surely is the thing that just can't be re-created on a scope screen (unless the scope screen happens to be HUGE and is usually masked smaller for real scope content).


I think 3 of us were steering the conversation towards the above but the rest were still fighting over switching aspect on a small scope screen.

I said that I would prefer to have both the CinemaScope and IMAX aspect displayed with the bottom option - meaning the last visible row of the image is always on the bottom of the screen. Otherwise - unless you are putting your massive 16:9 screen with 1/3 of it under eye level (which would be the 100% correct way of doing it) - it will be very bloody uncomfortable when only scope content is shown somewhere up there on your wall. I can’t image anything worse.

Hence I said the Lumagen could help but only if it had instant switching to shift the image up and down based on whether IMAX or scope content is shown (and maybe a % of how much of the bottom you want to cut off IMAX content where it’s still comfortable). 

it’s not 100% ideal but otherwise without it, we would have to put seats on a platform - including the front row. I’m pretty sure most people don’t have that sort of ceiling height.

I realise most people don’t care about this sort of thing. Ultimately, switching to a 2:1 aspect ratio screen is likely the better option for most people which is what my current one is rather close to. I’m not sure I really want separate scope and 16:9 screens so refused to entertain that route.


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> Wall-height 16:9, where you mask out 12% of the top and bottom and treat the remainder as a CIH 2.40 screen to project 1.33-2.40 content to, then you only take away the vertical masking for IMAX/multi-format would be I think what you're describing, yeah?
> 
> It's what I wanted to do, but I wanted motorized masking and I don't have the budget for the current 4-way masking solutions.


Yes, though I think a lot of folk with such a setup may end up expanding their <.2.4 content to use some more of the height in something more like a CIA type setup, particularly if they can stretch to a 4 way mask setup. I've only got top/bottom electric masks on a 16:9 screen, so sometimes do that.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

ajbriones said:


> Wall-height 16:9, where you mask out 12% of the top and bottom and treat the remainder as a CIH 2.40 screen to project 1.33-2.40 content to, then you only take away the vertical masking for IMAX/multi-format would be I think what you're describing, yeah?
> 
> It's what I wanted to do, but I wanted motorized masking and I don't have the budget for the current 4-way masking solutions.


If you had the Lumagen do some magic as above, you only need top masking, not all 4. As long as your massive 16:9 screen is only as wide as your scope screen (which is how IMAX should be displayed anyway).


----------



## Craig Peer

I want to know if folks that like NLS take scope movies on their flat panels / OLED's and stretch them to fill the 16:9 screen.  

Okay, now I'm just being mean. But I have a cold I got at Cedia, and I don't feel well, so I'm taking it out on you!


----------



## Craig Peer

NinjaTypeR said:


> I think 3 of us were steering the conversation towards the above but the rest were still fighting over switching aspect on a small scope screen.
> 
> I said that I would prefer to have both the CinemaScope and IMAX aspect displayed with the bottom option - meaning the last visible row of the image is always on the bottom of the screen. Otherwise - unless you are putting your massive 16:9 screen with 1/3 of it under eye level (which would be the 100% correct way of doing it) - it will be very bloody uncomfortable when only scope content is shown somewhere up there on your wall. I can’t image anything worse.
> 
> Hence I said the Lumagen could help but only if it had instant switching to shift the image up and down based on whether IMAX or scope content is shown (and maybe a % of how much of the bottom you want to cut off IMAX content where it’s still comfortable).
> 
> it’s not 100% ideal but otherwise without it, we would have to put seats on a platform - including the front row. I’m pretty sure most people don’t have that sort of ceiling height.
> 
> I realise most people don’t care about this sort of thing. Ultimately, switching to a 2:1 aspect ratio screen is likely the better option for most people which is what my current one is rather close to.* I’m not sure I really want separate scope and 16:9 screens so refused to entertain that route.*


That's what I have and it was one of the better things I've done in my theater.


----------



## bobof

Craig Peer said:


> I want to know if folks that like NLS take scope movies on their flat panels / OLED's and stretch them to fill the 16:9 screen.
> 
> Okay, now I'm just being mean. But I have a cold I got at Cedia, and I don't feel well, so I'm taking it out on you!


Haha, you laugh, but unless I'm much mistaken that is the factory default treatment of scope content on a 16:9 screen by a Lumagen if you select 2.4 aspect - to zoom the image to fill the vertical 16:9 frame  So I'm sure there are people using that...

edit: of course it doesn't just stretch it vertically, it zooms it (so left and right are cropped). Equally sinful...


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Craig Peer said:


> That's what I have and it was one of the better things I've done in my theater.


Yeah, I saw you mentioning it at one point. It’s probably the perfect world of you have the space (and monies) for it.

My (very close to) 2:1 is working so well even without masking that I’m actually probably staying with it. (Although I have top masking for it now.)

Of course, none of this solves the IMAX conandrum. Only if we put a bigger 16:9 screen in and top mask...

I realise most people aren’t that bothered but it’s something that’s been an interest of mine… custom aspect ratio screens (such as 2:1) and how to implement IMAX properly (or in a more ideal way).


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> Is anyone ignoring ideas to re-create IMAX? Surely there's only one  - a big 16:9 / 1.9:1 ish screen?
> Nothing else is re-creating IMAX. At best it's trying to fudge something a bit like the 'scope cinematic release (ish). The IMAX-ness surely is the thing that just can't be re-created on a scope screen (unless the scope screen happens to be HUGE and is usually masked smaller for real scope content).


An LED wall with a 2.0 AR is a pretty good approximation.


----------



## Kris Deering

Karl Maga said:


> The reflexive apoplexy for anything perceived as being critical of Envy would be a curious aberration were it not predictable and worn out. @FenceMan once characterized practitioners of such behavior as a "Hit Squad" or some such disparaging term, yet he is the first to exhibit it. SMH.
> 
> Of late, he's got @DigitalAV sucked into the vortex. Oh well.
> 
> Put a little bit of skin thickener on gents, Kris merely mentioned his reaction to the usage of aspect switching promoted by MadVR in a very specific instance, and was critical only of the usage, not the technology.


My comment had nothing to do with MadVR. The video was some guys in Australia using their tech in a way I didn’t agree with and not taking the opportunity to educate viewers on the pros and cons and directors intent. I would have had the same reaction if someone did the same video using a Lumagen.

I’ve never seen any ads or videos from MadVR. I have zero issue with MadVR advertising their features or adding stuff people want, even if I don’t want those features or even like them (like NLS). This applies to all consumer electronics, there are tons of features I don’t like or use on lots of gear. I have absolutely zero issues with MadVR or their products. Zip, zero, nada. I had a short chat with Richard at the show about some thoughts I had for possibly expanding their brand in fact.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Kris Deering said:


> My comment had nothing to do with MadVR. The video was some guys in Australia using their tech in a way I didn’t agree with and not taking the opportunity to educate viewers on the pros and cons and directors intent. I would have had the same reaction if someone did the same video using a Lumagen.
> 
> I’ve never seen any ads or videos from MadVR. I have zero issue with MadVR advertising their features or adding stuff people want, even if I don’t want those features or even like them (like NLS). This applies to all consumer electronics, there are tons of features I don’t like or use on lots of gear. I have absolutely zero issues with MadVR or their products. Zip, zero, nada. I had a short chat with Richard at the show about some thoughts I had for possibly expanding their brand in fact.


Im sure the same guy in Australia also done a review on the Lumagen before hand. He mentioned how good the Lumagen was with dolby vision. Totally misinformation on the product. And video you mentioned had zero educational information on why you would use that feature.


----------



## Kris Deering

Chicagobear1 said:


> Im sure the same guy in Australia also done a review on the Lumagen before hand. He mentioned how good the Lumagen was with dolby vision. Totally misinformation on the product. And video you mentioned had zero educational information on why you would use that feature.


Didn’t see that one. This is their only video I’ve seen and I o oh saw it as it was pointed out to me by someone else.


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> A Radiance Pro owner found a bug in the 091922 release when using vertical shift and output shrink (I believe). So it will not become the production release.
> 
> Pat started working on the bug fix but then left for vacation. When he returns on October 17, he will complete the bug fix and do another production candidate release. Then we will get back on the desaturation work.
> 
> This restarts the clock on desaturation. So now I am _hoping_ for an Alpha release for desaturation late November. Then we will get on fast auto aspect.
> 
> As I have discussed the current auto-aspect has a lot of extra checks and delays since it had to account for aspect changes from VCR tapes and other analog sources. While still a lot of work, speeding up auto aspect is mostly taking out all the special cases for analog sources. Since a lot of this is in the FPGA, it will take some time to complete.
> 
> Once we have fast auto-aspect, it should still _not_ be used for aspect changes within a movie. Watch iMAX, and other content, that changes aspect all as 16:9 for iMAX mode, or all as anamorphic for anamorphic mode. No offense meant to those who like the 16:9 sections shown smaller than 2.40 sections on an anamorphic screen but changing aspect for the 16:9 sections on an anamorphic screen is diametrically opposed to director's intent for anamorphic screens. I am glad to see some more people are realizing this.


Hi Jim,
Is desaturation the only DTM work on your plan? There are several other DTM items that I reported (too much Dpad on certain scenes, weighing APL/FALL more in calculation, 60p contents causing double maxY). Do you plan to work on those as well?


----------



## jrp

Jue Liang said:


> Hi Jim,
> Is desaturation the only DTM work on your plan? There are several other DTM items that I reported (too much Dpad on certain scenes, weighing APL/FALL more in calculation, 60p contents causing double maxY). Do you plan to work on those as well?


Of course! Adding desaturation changes the game. It allows us to use MaxFall much more aggressively. DPad is still needed since it is best to avoid needing desaturation given desaturation does change the image. However, we can use a much smaller DPad, and then desaturation will eliminate the clipping.
. 
For double MaxY at 60, I believe you are talking about (only) the AppleTV. This turns out to be a bug (or a feature) in the AppleTV that changes the HDR content when outputting it at 60 Hertz versus when it outputs it at 24 Hertz. We checked teh Radiance Pro and it does not treat 24 Hertz and 60 Hertz content any differently for DTM.


----------



## Javs

Chicagobear1 said:


> Im sure the same guy in Australia also done a review on the Lumagen before hand. He mentioned how good the Lumagen was with dolby vision. Totally misinformation on the product. And video you mentioned had zero educational information on why you would use that feature.


He was talking about LLDV, he did a video about LLDV too a while back, hes also done a review on the Lumagen earlier.

They are 'Home Theatre Engineering' I think they are based in Western Australia (which may as well be New Zealand to me LOL)

They offer calibration (the bald guy - hes pretty well respected here) and theatre consultations, unfortunately a bunch of what they spin on youtube is not always the best info, cant please everyone.


----------



## Javs

DigitalAV said:


> Don't do them any favors


Thats not a good attitude to have...


----------



## Jue Liang

jrp said:


> Of course! Adding desaturation changes the game. It allows us to use MaxFall much more aggressively. DPad is still needed since it is best to avoid needing desaturation given desaturation does change the image. However, we can use a much smaller DPad, and then desaturation will eliminate the clipping.
> .
> For double MaxY at 60, I believe you are talking about (only) the AppleTV. This turns out to be a bug (or a feature) in the AppleTV that changes the HDR content when outputting it at 60 Hertz versus when it outputs it at 24 Hertz. We checked teh Radiance Pro and it does not treat 24 Hertz and 60 Hertz content any differently for DTM.


I am very glad to hear that! We are getting major updates from both Lumagen and JVC next month. Can’t wait for that.

yes, Apple TV is the only player that I can switch between 60p and 24p output for the same content. I didn’t see any weird color or tone mapping when playing native 60p contents, like Gemini Man, through Panasonic or Oppo. So I guessed it might be an issue with the Apple TV. But I couldn’t say for sure because I couldn’t force the Panasonic or Oppo to change frame rate (at least I haven’t tried).


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> Yes, though I think a lot of folk with such a setup may end up expanding their <.2.4 content to use some more of the height in something more like a CIA type setup, particularly if they can stretch to a 4 way mask setup. I've only got top/bottom electric masks on a 16:9 screen, so sometimes do that.


IMHO a 4-way masking screen is the only reasonable option if you want to go for the optimal IMAX-setup - at least for larger screens. This way, you can set up to always have the center of the screen in the optimal position. But think about it, a 4,5m wide screen would be already 2,5m in height in 16:9...
But up-to-now, we didn´t have one client that appreciates the format-switching movies that much, that he would want to go this route.


----------



## bobof

Die Zwei said:


> IMHO a 4-way masking screen is the only reasonable option if you want to go for the optimal IMAX-setup - at least for larger screens. This way, you can set up to always have the center of the screen in the optimal position. But think about it, a 4,5m wide screen would be already 2,5m in height in 16:9...
> But up-to-now, we didn´t have one client that appreciates the format-switching movies that much, that he would want to go this route.


If I ever get the chance to build a "proper" sized dedicated room (as opposed to the 2.3m wide cupboard-theatre I have at the moment!) then a 4 way mask screen will be one of the first things planned in. In this room the horizontal masks just don't make any sense.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> No offense meant to those who like the 16:9 sections shown smaller than 2.40 sections on an anamorphic screen but changing aspect for the 16:9 sections on an anamorphic screen is diametrically opposed to director's intent for anamorphic screens.


This continual appeal to 'Director's Intent' brings to mind the No True Scotsman fallacy. It's the appeal to purity. If you don't do what the Director intended, then you're no true videophile...

It should be recognised that our home systems are ALWAYS a compromise on 'Director's Intent', in SO many ways, such that, ultimately, the director of our home experience is ourselves.

I started with a 4:3 screen, which I used for six years, before switching to a 2.35 screen, which I've now used for 16 years and have never looked back. I love constant height viewing, and auto-aspect is an integral part of that. There's no going back for this videophile. Director's Intent be damned!


----------



## tigerhonaker

AVS Members and also Guest to AVS,

Speaking of a use for 4.3 NLS that actually to me works lovely.
I have the Stewart ST130 G4 screen on a 123" 16x9 with 4-Way Remote Masking.
I reached out to Kris D. and also Jim P. to walk me through setting my Lumagen up for that.
The reason I wanted it was for OLDER Western movies as well as some Western series as well as some content on Dish and Streaming that's 4.3.
It works as I said just fine but for those that don't already know it does Cut-Off some content on the Far Left & Right.
That actually makes No-Difference at all because .............
Most of the Worthy content is much more Centered anyway.

So, yes guys there are reasons some of us Like & Prefer in some cases to utilize 4.3 NLS on a 16x9 screen even with it having 4-Way Remote Masking.

Lastly with simple touch of a Btn. your instantly back to the Full 16x9 display !!!

Thanks again to Kris D. & Jim P. for the assistance,
Terry


----------



## arsenalfc89

Jue Liang said:


> I am very glad to hear that! We are getting major updates from both Lumagen and JVC next month. Can’t wait for that.
> 
> yes, Apple TV is the only player that I can switch between 60p and 24p output for the same content. I didn’t see any weird color or tone mapping when playing native 60p contents, like Gemini Man, through Panasonic or Oppo. So I guessed it might be an issue with the Apple TV. But I couldn’t say for sure because I couldn’t force the Panasonic or Oppo to change frame rate (at least I haven’t tried).


I believe Amazon Fire Stick does the same thing. Noticed the doubling of MaxY in that device.


----------



## tomasg

desray2k said:


> Sigh...why can't streaming company like Netlfix provide user with an option to move subtitle offset, it will solve all these subtitle alignment issue with scope screen.


I have 2.1:1 screen as Jim recommend me when I was not sure if I should have 16:9 or anamorphic. Now I am very satisfied. Subtitles for most streaming shows are precisely where should be.


----------



## picree

jrp said:


> For double MaxY at 60, I believe you are talking about (only) the AppleTV. This turns out to be a bug (or a feature) in the AppleTV that changes the HDR content when outputting it at 60 Hertz versus when it outputs it at 24 Hertz. We checked teh Radiance Pro and it does not treat 24 Hertz and 60 Hertz content any differently for DTM.


Can anyone expound on this bug? Like, what is the ATV4K doing to HDR? Are there settings I should avoid so I don't encounter this?


----------



## Woof Woof

I guess in male dominated discussion forums, there is a tendency for things to go off on tangents or worse, deteriorate into a dick measuring contest to assert dominance. 

In the meantime, I am still running an older August beta firmware because by and large, I have not been affected by the extreme worst case triggers that make the image unwatchable. If anything, I have become quite enamoured by the Lumagen more and more recently. I remember there was a UHD disc I had that I had not watched much since getting it - Man of Steel. It was always seemed rather dark on projectors (at least the 2000 ish lumens variety that I was used to/could afford). 

I watched Man of Steel a couple of years ago on my older JVC X9500 and then the Sony 760ES. Neither seemed great. The image was dull and dim, especially on the opening act on Krypton. The only time I was truly wowed by it was when I used a BenQ LK970 projecting on a 150" cinemascope screen at work. Using the BenQ on the 120" at home wasn't a great option as the black levels were too high but on a large screen, the black levels seemed less intrusive. More importantly, the whole image just popped with the 6000? 5000? lumens on tap and I remember being wowed by the laser shots and lightning flashes across the landscape on Krypton. 

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and I found the disc languishing on my shelves. And I decided to give it a whirl to see how it would fare on the Sony 760ES and the Lumagen pairing. It was quite spectacular. I still don't know Lumagen does it - but the overall impact was that the darker scenes in the corridors and indoor settings on Krypton were far easier to make out and when the lightning and lasers came on, they still created that intense highlights. Color me happy. 

The Sony was recently sent to the service centre for work on the clicking/failing dynamic iris so I got out my old LG OLED C7 and plonked it in the media room. By having it closer to the seating area, the overall impact of the smaller 65" wasn't terrible. Even without any adjustments on the Lumagen, the dynamic tone mapping seemed to work really well on the LG


----------



## Kris Deering

Woof Woof said:


> I guess in male dominated discussion forums, there is a tendency for things to go off on tangents or worse, deteriorate into a dick measuring contest to assert dominance.
> 
> In the meantime, I am still running an older August beta firmware because by and large, I have not been affected by the extreme worst case triggers that make the image unwatchable. If anything, I have become quite enamoured by the Lumagen more and more recently. I remember there was a UHD disc I had that I had not watched much since getting it - Man of Steel. It was always seemed rather dark on projectors (at least the 2000 ish lumens variety that I was used to/could afford).
> 
> I watched Man of Steel a couple of years ago on my older JVC X9500 and then the Sony 760ES. Neither seemed great. The image was dull and dim, especially on the opening act on Krypton. The only time I was truly wowed by it was when I used a BenQ LK970 projecting on a 150" cinemascope screen at work. Using the BenQ on the 120" at home wasn't a great option as the black levels were too high but on a large screen, the black levels seemed less intrusive. More importantly, the whole image just popped with the 6000? 5000? lumens on tap and I remember being wowed by the laser shots and lightning flashes across the landscape on Krypton.
> 
> Fast forward to a few weeks ago and I found the disc languishing on my shelves. And I decided to give it a whirl to see how it would fare on the Sony 760ES and the Lumagen pairing. It was quite spectacular. I still don't know Lumagen does it - but the overall impact was that the darker scenes in the corridors and indoor settings on Krypton were far easier to make out and when the lightning and lasers came on, they still created that intense highlights. Color me happy.
> 
> The Sony was recently sent to the service centre for work on the clicking/failing dynamic iris so I got out my old LG OLED C7 and plonked it in the media room. By having it closer to the seating area, the overall impact of the smaller 65" wasn't terrible. Even without any adjustments on the Lumagen, the dynamic tone mapping seemed to work really well on the LG


I'd go to the latest firmware release, it is quite stable with no issues that I'm aware of.


----------



## thebland

Kris Deering said:


> I'd go to the latest firmware release, it is quite stable with no issues that I'm aware of.


I'm on a pre-pipeline (6 months old) software version. I know no settings are affected when moving to the new pipeline... but what are the new items that should be adjusted or experimented with (if any)? And none of the auto aspect programming will be affected... Correct?

Thanks!


----------



## MOberhardt

thebland said:


> I'm on a pre-pipeline (6 months old) software version. I know no settings are affected when moving to the new pipeline... but what are the new items that should be adjusted or experimented with (if any)? And none of the auto aspect programming will be affected... Correct?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes I am in the same position and wondering the same. More on the question will everything work as before.


----------



## Naiera

thebland said:


> I'm on a pre-pipeline (6 months old) software version. I know no settings are affected when moving to the new pipeline... but what are the new items that should be adjusted or experimented with (if any)? And none of the auto aspect programming will be affected... Correct?
> 
> Thanks!


You should upgrade immediately. The chroma shift fix is _dope AF_.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Speaking of the chroma fix I am under the impression that the Oppo 203/205s suffer from a chroma shift error of their own. Assuming this error is present for all formats and is consistent then if the Lumagen were to introduce a deliberate error of its own if calculated properly would this essentially be able to correct the error or am I way off?

If not, I wonder how many users would benefit from this and what the appetite would be for a per input Oppo mode in the Lumagen?


----------



## FenceMan

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Speaking of the chroma fix I am under the impression that the Oppo 203/205s suffer from a chroma shift error of their own. Assuming this error is present for all formats and is consistent then if the Lumagen were to introduce a deliberate error of its own if calculated properly would this essentially be able to correct the error or am I way off?
> 
> If not, I wonder how many users would benefit from this and what the appetite would be for a per input Oppo mode in the Lumagen?


Yes it is possible for a video processor to correct the chroma issues of the Oppo .


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

FenceMan said:


> Yes it is possible for a video processor to correct the chroma issues of the Oppo .


Thanks for the response.

Now one doesn't like to try and influence Lumagens priorities or workload but..... ..


----------



## alv

Is it my imagination or does the latest software speed HDMI handshakes?


----------



## Javs

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> Now one doesn't like to try and influence Lumagens priorities or workload but..... ..


You can already do this in the Lumagen. The problem before that, is Lumagen had issues that would vary with different inputs like HDR and resolution and even colorspace, I think this is now fixed though, so the chroma delay feature in the menu will work properly


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Javs said:


> You can already do this in the Lumagen. The problem before that, is Lumagen had issues that would vary with different inputs like HDR and resolution and even colorspace, I think this is now fixed though, so the chroma delay feature in the menu will work properly


Wow, fantastic and many thanks for the response. So that is what the delay does. Any idea if the delay would be consistent across all formats or would vary by each unique format (I am using source direct)? If I understand your response even if it would vary by unique format it would now, due to resolved issues, be consistent for each of those formats and could therefore be set correctly by using virtual memories.

I don't suppose anyone would know what the delay(s) would need to be or how to determine them other than by squinting and eyeballing the screen?


----------



## Javs

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Wow, fantastic and many thanks for the response. So that is what the delay does. Any idea if the delay would be consistent across all formats or would vary by each unique format (I am using source direct)? If I understand your response even if it would vary by unique format it would now, due to resolved issues, be consistent for each of those formats and could therefore be set correctly by using virtual memories.
> 
> I don't suppose anyone would know what the delay(s) would need to be or how to determine them other than by squinting and eyeballing the screen?


If you use the delay function, its based on your input profile in the lumagen, so if you wanted different delays for certain things you can just go to another profile and use it.

What it did before was a bug that was just randomly wrong by a fair bit across different lumagen modes, DTM On/Off etc, BT2020 vs Bt709, thats all with the same input btw, so totally a bug, that's now been fixed anyway.

S&M Disc has a chroma delay pattern.

Here is what it looks like. This is not Lumagen output btw. But if you zoom in, and look at the lines they should all be centred on the 0.0 parts... if they are centred on the +/- 0.5 or other, then it means your chroma is out by that much. And then the Lumagen tool would fix it.











In fact looking at this, I can see my MadVR is currently out by 0.5px in the vertical pattern. So I will report that and see if others have the same issue or its just me.


----------



## DigitalAV

Is the best way to look at a Y/C delay test pattern like on the AVS HD disc using our Oppo 203/205s? Is Y/C Delay the only Lumagen setting needed to fix the Oppo, or does CUE Filter also need to be adjusted?

Edit- never mind, just saw Javs' post. Thank you, Uncle Javs!!


----------



## docrog

Javs said:


> In fact looking at this, I can see my MadVR is currently out by 0.5px in the vertical pattern. So I will report that and see if others have the same issue or its just me.


I honestly don't see any asymmetry in either of the 2 patterns from that screen grab. I'd truly appreciate it if you could explain................


----------



## Javs

docrog said:


> I honestly don't see any asymmetry in either of the 2 patterns from that screen grab. I'd truly appreciate it if you could explain................


When you are talking a 0.5px error out of 2160 vertical pixels, obviously you gotta look really close. The red line should be completely centered on the bar, you can see in my image on the right side, only the +0.5 one is truly centred, it should be centred on 0.0 (reminder this is not what Lumagen is outputting) its just how you check scientifically if there is an error.


----------



## docrog

Javs said:


> When you are talking a 0.5px error out of 2160 vertical pixels, obviously you gotta look really close. The red line should be completely centered on the bar, you can see in my image on the right side, only the +0.5 one is truly centered, it should be centered on 0.0 (reminder this is not what Lumagen is outputting) its just how you check scientifically if there is an error.


Thanks for that additional clarification, but (even with a magnifying glass) I'm unable to detect a difference in "centering". Perhaps you might be able to draw/annotate how any of the bars other than +0.5 are UN-centered. As always, your insights are very helpful in advancing my understanding of these (new to me) concepts.


----------



## Javs

docrog said:


> Thanks for that additional clarification, but (even with a magnifying glass) I'm unable to detect a difference in "centering". Perhaps you might be able to draw/annotate how any of the bars other than +0.5 are UN-centered. As always, your insights are very helpful in advancing my understanding of these (new to me) concepts.


Here










I didnt actually notice this in a pattern at first, it was when I was looking at my vans image which had red taillights that I saw the red twitching a bit... in BR and UHD encodes the colour (cb/cr) channel is completely separate to the luma channel (brightness / black and white) so I wasnt even aware that it could manifest like that, the concept was new to me, but I know a little bit more about it now after staring at it so long, the first alpha build of the new pipeline firmware had an extremely serious chroma error of multiple pixels in the unique way I was testing it (upscaling and also downscaling) so it really stood out to me then when I was comparing to other video renderers. Then we found that actually the Oppo has its own error too independantly of the LRP. Kris actually bought a whole new Panasonic UHD BR player to test that, and it had perfect chroma, so he passed on the amount of error to Pat and he fixed it.


----------



## docrog

Javs said:


> Here
> 
> View attachment 3344250
> 
> 
> I didn't actually notice this in a pattern at first, it was when I was looking at my vans image which had red taillights that I saw the red twitching a bit... in BR and UHD the colour channel is completely separate to the lumaa channel (brightness / black and white) so I wasn't even aware that it could manifest like that, the concept was new to me, but I know a little bit more about it now, the first alpha build of the new pipeline firmware had an extremely serious chroma error of multiple pixels so it really stood out to me then when I was comparing to other video renderers. Then we found that actually the Oppo has its own error too independently of the LRP. Kris actually bought a whole new Panasonic UHD BR player to test that, and it had perfect chroma, so he passed on the amount of error to Pat and he fixed it.


Now, that's subtle! Thanks for magnifying your original image, as the raster lines on my PC monitor had previously obscured that detail. I can now see a difference in the thickness of the lower black stripe delineating the red bar. But, even when overlaying a piece of graph paper on your magnified images, I'm hard pressed to grasp the concept of what's otherwise *centered* on what "bar".............


----------



## Javs

docrog said:


> Now, that's subtle! Thanks for magnifying your original image, as the raster lines on my PC monitor had previously obscured that detail. I can now see a difference in the thickness of the lower black stripe delineating the red bar. But, even when overlaying a piece of graph paper on your magnified images, I'm hard pressed to grasp the concept of what's otherwise *centered* on what "bar".............


Yeah its subtle, but before it was fixed it wasnt particularly subtle when comparing with multple sources and devices and it was sticking out a bit. But its fixed now.

There are black lines underneath the blue and red lines which are in the Luma channel and cannot be misplaced due to chroma so thats where the 0.0 position should be, they are overlaid, so when you look at the 0.5 image which in my case is the correct chroma, then you can see its sitting right in the middle of the very slightly larger black bars under it, the blue thinnest bar in particular you can see it, and then compare to 0.0 and you see how its out there is not an even amount of.


----------



## docrog

Javs said:


> Yeah its subtle, but before it was fixed it wasnt particularly subtle when comparing with multple sources and devices and it was sticking out a bit. But its fixed now.
> 
> There are black lines underneath the blue and red lines which are in the Luma channel and cannot be misplaced due to chroma so that's where the 0.0 position should be, they are overlaid, so when you look at the 0.5 image which in my case is the correct chroma, then you can see its sitting right in the middle of the very slightly larger black bars under it, the blue thinnest bar in particular you can see it, and then compare to 0.0 and you see how it's out there is not an even amount of.


I think that explanation drives home the concept. The "BAR" in question has nothing to do with the background grey band (bar?) on which the red & blue *bars* are superimposed. What was most confusing to me is the concept of "centering", but I'll just have to let that go for now. I'll fire up the S&M disc and see if I can identify this error in real time. Many thanks, again, for your assistance.

UPDATE: I apparently have the same +0.5 "centering" error on my display. What's more disconcerting is that there is a *green offset* of (what appears to be) one pixel located to the right of the red bars (more apparent than in relationship to the blue bars) seen in both the horizontal and vertical "graphs". I'm unaware of any mechanism for the user to be able to shift green pixels on my NX7. I'm currently running RP v062222 and have been awaiting the (reportedly) soon to be released production software update. It will be interesting to re-evaluate this pattern following that update to see whether either/both of these errors have been fixed in my system as I don't know whether the RP or NX7 is responsible for the current green offset.


----------



## jqmn

Javs said:


> I didnt actually notice this in a pattern at first, it was when I was looking at my vans image which had red taillights that I saw the red twitching a bit... in BR and UHD encodes the colour (cb/cr) channel is completely separate to the luma channel (brightness / black and white) so I wasnt even aware that it could manifest like that, the concept was new to me, but I know a little bit more about it now after staring at it so long, the first alpha build of the new pipeline firmware had an extremely serious chroma error of multiple pixels in the unique way I was testing it (upscaling and also downscaling) so it really stood out to me then when I was comparing to other video renderers. Then we found that actually the Oppo has its own error too independantly of the LRP. Kris actually bought a whole new Panasonic UHD BR player to test that, and it had perfect chroma, so he passed on the amount of error to Pat and he fixed it.


Great explanation. Thank-you. In you experience is there a point where it does or doesn't make a notable difference? So, in your case, is 1/2 worth messing about?


----------



## Javs

jqmn said:


> Great explanation. Thank-you. In you experience is there a point where it does or doesn't make a notable difference? So, in your case, is 1/2 worth messing about?


Well I don't have any extensive experience with it as I said it's new to me and I kinda happened upon it when it was particularly bad and chased it backwards, but if it can be fixed it should. And it seems like it has.

I guess it's a bit like a slight convergence error, if you can help it better not to have it, if it's real bad it definitely made the image lack fine detail and had a wired ghosting effect when it was a couple pixels out, but half a pixel not a huge deal. 

Either way if the error is consistent they give you a way to fix it with the Lumagen so that's good. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


----------



## FenceMan

Javs said:


> In fact looking at this, I can see my MadVR is currently out by 0.5px in the vertical pattern. So I will report that and see if others have the same issue or its just me.


This?


Spoiler: Chroma


----------



## by96

NM - my misunderstanding


----------



## FenceMan

by96 said:


> I am trying to learn this myself, but the vertical pattern refers to the horizontal lines and vice versa. Post #17,766 shows the misalignment on the horizontal patterns zoomed in.


With Lumagen or Envy? He's saying Lumagen is fixed but Envy isn't, mine is Envy so you shouldn't see issue but I should (and do).


----------



## by96

FenceMan said:


> With Lumagen or Envy? He's saying Lumagen is fixed but Envy isn't, mine is Envy so you shouldn't see issue but I should (and do).


I'm sorry... Was that a shot from your own testing? I thought your were showing Javs' testing when he was referring to the vertical alignment issue.

Coffee hasn't started working yet.


----------



## FenceMan

by96 said:


> I'm sorry... Was that a shot from your own testing? I thought your were showing Javs' testing when he was referring to the vertical alignment issue.
> 
> Coffee hasn't started working yet.


No I was (trying to) confirm what he said about Envy and yes that's picture of my screen with Envy.


----------



## DigitalAV

FWIW-

Just ran the "Chroma Alignment Numeric" pattern from the S&M 4k UHD Blu on my Oppo 203. It showed +0.5 as being centered for both red and blue, horizontal and vertical.

Oddly, using the Lumagen YC Delay control, setting both Cr and Cb to 0.5000 did not correct it. Instead, I had to set to‐

Cr: 1.3750
Cb: 1.2500

‐in order to best correct. Even then, horizontal was as close to fixed as possible with 0.0 the most centered, but vertical remained showing +0.5 as the most centered.

None of these changes really showed anything different in normal content viewing.


----------



## docrog

DigitalAV said:


> FWIW-
> 
> Just ran the "Chroma Alignment Numeric" pattern from the S&M 4k UHD Blu on my Oppo 203. It showed +0.5 as being centered for both red and blue, horizontal and vertical.
> 
> Oddly, using the Lumagen YC Delay control, setting both Cr and Cb to 0.5000 did not correct it. Instead, I had to set to‐
> 
> Cr: 1.3750
> Cb: 1.2500
> 
> ‐in order to best correct. Even then, horizontal was as close to fixed as possible with 0.0 the most centered, but vertical remained showing +0.5 as the most centered.
> 
> None of these changes really showed anything different in normal content viewing.


Did you notice any evidence of a green offset with the S&M disc? I'd previously posted that it was apparent (about 1 pixel in size) for both the horizontal and vertical chroma graphs. Convergence of my NX7 appears to be spot on when using the lens control for focus.


----------



## DigitalAV

docrog said:


> Did you notice any evidence of a green offset with the S&M disc? I'd previously posted that it was apparent (about 1 pixel in size) for both the horizontal and vertical chroma graphs. Convergence of my NX7 appears to be spot on when using the lens control for focus.


Hmm, didn't notice any green offset. I'm using an Epson 5050ub with fairly decent convergence.


----------



## Nima

Is there any other pattern apart from S&M to test this?


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Nima said:


> Is there any other pattern apart from S&M to test this?


I think there are suitable patterns in PGenerator which I guess you could test with using the HDMI in of the Oppo. I am hoping to find time using S&M over the coming weekend. If I understand correctly the correct delay should be the same for everyone so all it needs is a few competent people to test and if they agree you should be able to use whatever values they agree on.


----------



## DigitalAV

The 1080p S&M Blu shows spot-on chroma (0 centered) when played via Oppo 203. Only the 4k UHD Blu of S&M shows +0.5 chroma misalignment for me


----------



## DigitalAV

I feel like typing S&M too much has now put me on some sort of sordid ad list


----------



## Craig Peer

DigitalAV said:


> I feel like typing S&M too much has now put me on some sort of sordid ad list


Sometimes this hobby feels a bit like a form of sadomasochism. Especially battling some people on this forum!


----------



## Nima

Ever tried to align (100% perfectlly) a Trinnov microphone?


----------



## sjschaff

Nima said:


> Ever tried to align (100% perfectlly) a Trinnov microphone?


Perfect is the enemy of good enough...


----------



## ajbriones

sjschaff said:


> Perfect is the enemy of good enough...


I'm afraid that if I ever get my setup just right, I might have nothing left to do but sit around and watch movies and listen to music on it. Where's the fun in that?


----------



## bosler.bruce

Nima said:


> Ever tried to align (100% perfectlly) a Trinnov microphone?





sjschaff said:


> Perfect is the enemy of good enough...


exactly... when you are listening, your head is not exactly where the microphone was anyway. If you move your head it doesn't throw off the soundstage. At some point close enough is good enough, you are wasting your time going for "perfect."


----------



## bjorg

It would be nice if the Lumagen update software could store the COM port that was last used (maybe in the Windows registry). It would save me a trip to the Device Manager to every time I run an update. I know, small problem. Just seems it would be a fairly simple enhancement.


----------



## Michael-S

bjorg said:


> It would be nice if the Lumagen update software could store the COM port that was last used (maybe in the Windows registry). It would save me a trip to the Device Manager to every time I run an update. I know, small problem. Just seems it would be a fairly simple enhancement.


I have a small label denoting the Com port affixed to my laptop. That‘s how I ”remember“.

I also have it stored in My Contacts - Lumagen.


----------



## netroamer

bjorg said:


> It would be nice if the Lumagen update software could store the COM port that was last used (maybe in the Windows registry). It would save me a trip to the Device Manager to every time I run an update. I know, small problem. Just seems it would be a fairly simple enhancement.


As the update program in not a registered app in the windows system, I don't believe it has access to the registry.


----------



## Naiera

It's a unique installer every time anyway.


----------



## bjorg

netroamer said:


> As the update program in not a registered app in the windows system, I don't believe it has access to the registry.


IRC, any program can read/write to the registry, but it may not be allowed to access sensitive areas.



Naiera said:


> It's a unique installer every time anyway.


It's just an application, not an installer.


----------



## ajbriones

Michael-S said:


> I have a small label denoting the Com port affixed to my laptop. That‘s how I ”remember“.


great idea


----------



## netroamer

I have other similar programs that you can request they search for the port. Maybe that's an option.


Michael-S said:


> I have a small label denoting the Com port affixed to my laptop. That‘s how I ”remember“.
> 
> I also have it stored in My Contacts - Lumagen.


I have a couple of similar apps that will find the port at the press of a button. Perhaps that may be an option.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> It would be nice if the Lumagen update software could store the COM port that was last used (maybe in the Windows registry). It would save me a trip to the Device Manager to every time I run an update. I know, small problem. Just seems it would be a fairly simple enhancement.


It already should. When I plug either of the Lumagen’s I have at my house it always uses the same com Port every time. If I change laptops it’s changes, but that is rare for me.

I have had to change laptops this year though and it was the same on both. In fact, I have a sequence I do. I plug in my meters and it assigns 3 and 4 to those. Then my main lumagen which is 5 and then a few other bits I use and then my test Lumagen which is 8. It always uses the same numbers every time when I plug in again. Did it with the old laptop too.


----------



## Kurvenal

ajbriones said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but looking for calibrator recommendations in Los Angeles (Epson LS12000 with LRP, Kaleidescape, Oppo 205, ATV4K, HTPC sources). Also, is it ideal to wait until all the window treatments are done before getting someone in to calibrate? We don’t have basements in CA, so our theater is on the 3rd floor.


Did you get a reply from anyone on this? If not, I would recommend Dave Abrams of Avical.


----------



## bjorg

Naie
[QUOTE="Kris Deering said:


> It already should. When I plug either of the Lumagen’s I have at my house it always uses the same com Port every time. If I change laptops it’s changes, but that is rare for me.
> 
> I have had to change laptops this year though and it was the same on both. In fact, I have a sequence I do. I plug in my meters and it assigns 3 and 4 to those. Then my main lumagen which is 5 and then a few other bits I use and then my test Lumagen which is 8. It always uses the same numbers every time when I plug in again. Did it with the old laptop too.


The Lumagen is always on the same COM port (3 in my case). It's the updater app that doesn't remember the dropdown setting from the last time an update was applied. I always run on it the HTPC, which is connected to the Lumagen. So, it's the same machine each time. In my case, running Device Manager is simpler than checking a sticker on the rack! 🤣

Anyway, it was just a suggestion for convenience. Updates aren't that frequent.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> The Lumagen is always on the same COM port (3 in my case). It's the updater app that doesn't remember the dropdown setting from the last time an update was applied. I always run on it the HTPC, which is connected to the Lumagen. So, it's the same machine each time. In my case, running Device Manager is simpler than checking a sticker on the rack! 🤣
> 
> Anyway, it was just a suggestion for convenience. Updates aren't that frequent.


The reason the updater doesn't default to the same com port is it is a different executable program every time. They don't use the same program, so it doesn't know what com port was used before. Make a sticky note on your computer or something.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> The reason the updater doesn't default to the same com port is it is a different executable program every time. They don't use the same program, so it doesn't know what com port was used before. Make a sticky note on your computer or something.


Or the app can store the last value used in the windows registry. I was suggesting an improvement. I know how to work around it and it's not a sticky note. 🙄


----------



## HTTR17

Jim, Kris or anyone. Would the tributaries uhdm HDMI cables be a good pair with the lumagen 4242 and jvc nz8? Using monoprice now and they seem ok, just sometimes I have to shift inputs to get them to sync.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

I have noted that some people have complained about not knowing which COM PORT to use to update their Lumagen software. I feel that these complaints are in the nitpicking category and they imply that this is somehow the fault of Lumagen. Get a grip you people. Google it like I did and then write it down so you can remember the com port to use for the future. Move on and stop your complaining .....


----------



## bosler.bruce

HTTR17 said:


> Jim, Kris or anyone. Would the tributaries uhdm HDMI cables be a good pair with the lumagen 4242 and jvc nz8? Using monoprice now and they seem ok, just sometimes I have to shift inputs to get them to sync.


is this what you mean by not syncing and having to shift inputs? I will put this in the nitpicking category because it always eventually syncs, but after I turn on the Lumagen and my NZ8 I get this. I have to switch inputs to the Lumagen a few times before it clears up. Using the recommended Tributaries HDMI cables


----------



## HTTR17

Mine stays blank and I have change input on the lumagen or switch the jvc then switch back


----------



## Mark_H

COM port - I never have to change mine once set up the first time. I'm trying to remember what it is I do with a new computer - plug the Lumagen's USB cable into each USB slot and then in device manager assign the same COM port to that cable. I do the same for my spectros and colorimiters too. After that, whenever I plug any of these devices in they always get assigned the same COM port and all the software is happy.


----------



## sandyj

bosler.bruce said:


> is this what you mean by not syncing and having to shift inputs? I will put this in the nitpicking category because it always eventually syncs, but after I turn on the Lumagen and my NZ8 I get this. I have to switch inputs to the Lumagen a few times before it clears up. Using the recommended Tributaries HDMI cables
> 
> View attachment 3345642


I am also using Tributaries HDMI cables and having sync issues mine seems to occur when moving between programs/movies and when using a zidoo media player. The Tributaries cable works better than the 2 RuiPro cables I have all are fiber and 12 - 15 meters length, once the problem occurs moving between inputs on the Lumagen does not fix it but a reboot of the Lumagen does. Not sure if changing inputs on the projector will fix it I will try that next.
Projector is an NX9 JVC.
Firmware version is Beta 081822


----------



## sandyj

Updated Firmware to latest version
Changed HDCP delay settings seems to have improved things will need to test for a few days.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> Or the app can store the last value used in the windows registry. I was suggesting an improvement. I know how to work around it and it's not a sticky note. 🙄


I wasn't saying you don't. But how can an app store a registry when the same app isn't used each time?


----------



## Kris Deering

bosler.bruce said:


> is this what you mean by not syncing and having to shift inputs? I will put this in the nitpicking category because it always eventually syncs, but after I turn on the Lumagen and my NZ8 I get this. I have to switch inputs to the Lumagen a few times before it clears up. Using the recommended Tributaries HDMI cables
> 
> View attachment 3345642


That is not normal. I haven't seen start up look like that on any Radiance. What is the chain for this setup?


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I wasn't saying you don't. But how can an app store a registry when the same app isn't used each time?


I don't think there is an issue with an app writing things to a registry key that all variants of the app know the location of. Otherwise software updates etc would never carry settings over... Registry keys don't usually get migrated (for minor versions, at least).


----------



## Kris Deering

sandyj said:


> I am also using Tributaries HDMI cables and having sync issues mine seems to occur when moving between programs/movies and when using a zidoo media player. The Tributaries cable works better than the 2 RuiPro cables I have all are fiber and 12 - 15 meters length, once the problem occurs moving between inputs on the Lumagen does not fix it but a reboot of the Lumagen does. Not sure if changing inputs on the projector will fix it I will try that next.
> Projector is an NX9 JVC.
> Firmware version is Beta 081822


Are you saying that all the sources going INTO the Lumagen are 12-15 meter fiber cables? If so, that could be the issue as the players may not have the output to drive a fiber that long. I know Jim has mentioned before that he never recommends a fiber cable for any source device to the Lumagen and recommends runs of 6-10 ft, with the later being ideal. 

Also, for anyone that has an initial output problem (something weird on startup), press the ALT then PREV button on the Lumagen remote to perform an output restart. If this helps clear the issue, it may be a timing thing.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I don't think there is an issue with an app writing things to a registry key that all variants of the app know the location of. Otherwise software updates etc would never carry settings over... Registry keys don't usually get migrated (for minor versions, at least).


I'll ask Pat about it next time I talk to him.


----------



## jrp

If you have a sync issue as described above, to see if it is the connection between the Radiance Pro and the projector/TV, instead of power cycling the Radiance Pro restart the output by pressing the ALT key (release) and then the PREV key. This restarts all outputs.

If the issues is only the connection to the TV/projector, this may, and often does, get picture back. If it does then the issue is limited to between the Radiance Pro and the Projector/TV.

==== 

You should also try the HDCP delay feature in recent releases. This is in the MENU.Global.HDCP Delay menu. Enable the delay and set it to (for example) 2 seconds (the default). If it does not help you can increase the time and try again.

Then where is say "Only at startup" if the issue is only at start up select Yes. If the issue sometime occurs on an output restart select No.

Press OK to accept and then do a Save.

==== 

If you continue having sync issues, please contact me at lumagen.com support email and we can start a conversation. Note: Please do not PM me.


----------



## Naiera

Kris Deering said:


> I wasn't saying you don't. But how can an app store a registry when the same app isn't used each time?


I may have used the wrong terminology, but this was my point all along 🤷‍♂️


----------



## jrp

On the COM port selection for updates:

We know it is possible for the Pro updater to find which COM ports are active. We do not have the code for this, but I understand it is not too much code. If someone out there has the Windows C source code to find the COM ports, and is willing to send it to lumagen.com support email, that would be much appreciated.

If we get this code, I believe it would be reasonable for us to add it to future updates, and then the updater can recommend the COM port rather than the user needing to select it.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> I wasn't saying you don't. But how can an app store a registry when the same app isn't used each time?


This is totally possible/normal.

I'm a software developer. An app, if it has permissions (i.e. running as Admin), can write ANYWHERE to the registry. Then a totally different app could read/write to that same location in the registry. There are parts of the windows registry that aren't app specific (they are user specific, or system specific).


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> On the COM port selection for updates:
> 
> We know it is possible for the Pro updater to find which COM ports are active. We do not have the code for this, but I understand it is not too much code. If someone out there has the Windows C source code to find the COM ports, and is willing to send it to lumagen.com support email, that would be much appreciated.
> 
> If we get this code, I believe it would be reasonable for us to add it to future updates, and then the updater can recommend the COM port rather than the user needing to select it.


The auto-detect can be tricky since COM doesn't have device identifiers like USB does. So, if more than one COM device is present, the updater might end up selecting the wrong port.

In contrast, selecting the same settings as used by the last successful update seems less risky.

For the registry, the relevant functions are:

RegCreateKeyEx to create a new key or open an existing one (think folder)
RegSetValueEx to store the current selection from the UI
RegGetValue to read a previously stored value
A good location in the registry might be something like HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Lumagen\RadianceProUpdater since the COM location is specific to the machine that is connected.

Probably makes sense to also store the last used _Baud Rate_. _Update Method_ should probably always default to _Auto_. Maybe others can chime in what makes sense here.










@fatherom Does that sound about right?


----------



## jrp

HTTR17 said:


> Jim, Kris or anyone. Would the tributaries uhdm HDMI cables be a good pair with the lumagen 4242 and jvc nz8? Using monoprice now and they seem ok, just sometimes I have to shift inputs to get them to sync.


I am now recommending the 3-meter Tributaries 48 GHz passive as the optimal cable for all passive HDMI connections. There are other good cables (AVPro Store, Ethereal), but these are the ones I stock.

I find the Tributaries UHDV Vega fiber to be an excellent cables to insure the projector has the best possible signal if a long run is needed. Again there are other good fiber cables such as the RUIPRO (amazon) and the AVPro Bullet Train fiber, but these are the ones I stock.

If a 3-meter cable is long enough to the NZ8 then I would recommend the UHDM.

===

From sources I also recommend the UHDM 3-meter. AppleTV is recommend using a 48 GHz passive (or so I am told) and this is a good thing. In my experience 3-meter length has the optimal amount of cable attenuation, and so the 3-meter UHDM is my go-to for all passive connections in a system, and as stated above some other 3-meter 48 GHz passives are likely good as well.


----------



## HTTR17

jrp said:


> I am now recommending the 3-meter Tributaries 48 GHz passive as the optimal cable for all passive HDMI connections. There are other good cables (AVPro Store, Ethereal), but these are the ones I stock.
> 
> I find the Tributaries UHDV Vega fiber to be an excellent cables to insure the projector has the best possible signal if a long run is needed. Again there are other good fiber cables such as the RUIPRO (amazon) and the AVPro Bullet Train fiber, but these are the ones I stock.
> 
> If a 3-meter cable is long enough to the NZ8 then I would recommend the UHDM.
> 
> ===
> 
> From sources I also recommend the UHDM 3-meter. AppleTV is recommend using a 48 GHz passive (or so I am told) and this is a good thing. In my experience 3-meter length has the optimal amount of cable attenuation, and so the 3-meter UHDM is my go-to for all passive connections in a system, and as stated above some other 3-meter 48 GHz passives are likely good as well.


Thanks


----------



## GeorgeHolland

WCEaglesMan said:


> I have noted that some people have complained about not knowing which COM PORT to use to update their Lumagen software. I feel that these complaints are in the nitpicking category and they imply that this is somehow the fault of Lumagen. Get a grip you people. Google it like I did and then write it down so you can remember the com port to use for the future. Move on and stop your complaining .....


I connect so rarely I never remember the COM port I may have previously connected to. I still might be missing something; it only takes a few seconds to identify the COM port. 

I plug the Lumagen into my laptop, open device manager, select Ports (COM & LPT) and it tells me what COM port I am connected to and I enter that in the Configuration Utility. If after a Windows update the Ports option disappears in Device Manager, simply use the "Action" option to "Add Legacy Hardware" and get "Ports" back.


----------



## jrp

bjorg:

Thanks for the information.

I think the program could put the COM port in the log file. Then the next time, if a log file exists, it would read the log file and use the same COM port.

=== 

It seems the big issue is people figuring out how to find the COM port the first time. For this issue, offering COM ports that are active, even if more than one, seems a good option. I think the updater could send a Radiance Pro query to any ports not locked by another program, and this way determine the exact port. I am not sure if there would be an issue with this, but it seems it should work in most cases.

We would need someone to provide the C code to find active COM ports.

=== 

What I do, and recommend, is after finding the COM port the first time, and as long as no real device is using COM1, I change the COM port under the Advanced settings to COM1. This easy to remember and since COM1 is the default I do not even need to select a COM port for updates -- which I do rather often as you can imagine.


----------



## fatherom

jrp said:


> I think the program could put the COM port in the log file.


Curious why the log file would be preferable to using the windows registry?


----------



## bosler.bruce

I agree with the "you are just nitpicking" comment about com ports. It is easy to find the right one. just do it.. can we drop this and please move on ??


----------



## bosler.bruce

Kris Deering said:


> That is not normal. I haven't seen start up look like that on any Radiance. What is the chain for this setup?



inputs to 5244

Roku 4K
Apple TV 4k 
Sony DVD
outputs

set for audio and video via fiber HDMI to a Trinnov AL16
NZ8
All HDMI except fiber are Lumagen recommended Tributaries.. For movies/TV I use the projector. For Apple Music I have a small monitor hooked to the Trinnov so I can see the ATV 4K menus without having to use the projector


----------



## Michael-S

To me the point isn't the effort it takes to determine the COM port, it's that it's necessary to repeat it with each update. Furthermore, the means to eliminate or reduce the need is readily available. 

I for one do not struggle with it, but not all of us possess Windows proficiency to the extent required; hence it comes up regularly as a topic.


----------



## HTRaleigh

This may be a nitpick and like several of you I’ve never had an issue finding the connected COM port even if it does require another step.

However, I’ve got to give Jim major kudos for listening to the original suggestion and looking at ways to make the Lumagen experience a little better. This is the kind of business to owner relationship that separates Lumagen from others.


----------



## Michael-S

HTRaleigh said:


> ...got to give Jim major kudos for listening to the original suggestion and looking at ways to make the Lumagen experience a little better. *This is the kind of business to owner relationship that separates Lumagen from others*.


Well said. And it's also why we feel we can express our wish to have it addressed.


----------



## sandyj

Kris Deering said:


> Are you saying that all the sources going INTO the Lumagen are 12-15 meter fiber cables? If so, that could be the issue as the players may not have the output to drive a fiber that long. I know Jim has mentioned before that he never recommends a fiber cable for any source device to the Lumagen and recommends runs of 6-10 ft, with the later being ideal.
> 
> Also, for anyone that has an initial output problem (something weird on startup), press the ALT then PREV button on the Lumagen remote to perform an output restart. If this helps clear the issue, it may be a timing thing.


No sorry what I meant was I have tried various cables to the projector from the Lumagen and the Tributaries was the best so far and I can't remember the last time I had a startup issue. I do always start things in order first projector wait to fully started, then Lumagen wait to fully started then source. I partly posted just to say that the issue might be outside of the Tributaries cable as trying different cables can get expensive.
All my cables from the sources are 3 meters at the moment and are certified cables.
Its interesting how some seem to have perfect or golden connections without issues I have also experienced these issues without the Lumagen in place so no blame there just trying to find a solution.

Good tip on the ALT then PREV button on the Lumagen remote to perform an output restart did no know about that one thanks.


----------



## Surge2018

Thought you would find this interesting: I recently acquired the *Apple TV X* (AppleTV X) - a heavily modified Apple TV 4K. There are a couple of reviews online, with more coming, I'm told. I have no affiliation to the company.

The image quality is simply stunning! Honestly, I was not expecting the level of improvement over the normal ATV. It is better than the Kaleidescape (and mine uses an optional linear power supply). Sharpness and overall contrast is significantly improved. Audio quality is also the best I have heard from a streaming platform. If you are interested in the best streaming image quality, the ATVX is well worth it.


----------



## bjorg

jrp said:


> bjorg:
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> I think the program could put the COM port in the log file. Then the next time, if a log file exists, it would read the log file and use the same COM port.
> 
> ===
> 
> It seems the big issue is people figuring out how to find the COM port the first time. For this issue, offering COM ports that are active, even if more than one, seems a good option. I think the updater could send a Radiance Pro query to any ports not locked by another program, and this way determine the exact port. I am not sure if there would be an issue with this, but it seems it should work in most cases.
> 
> We would need someone to provide the C code to find active COM ports.
> 
> ===
> 
> What I do, and recommend, is after finding the COM port the first time, and as long as no real device is using COM1, I change the COM port under the Advanced settings to COM1. This easy to remember and since COM1 is the default I do not even need to select a COM port for updates -- which I do rather often as you can imagine.


Writing to a file would only work if the downloaded updater is always copied to the same location or the file is written to a know location. By default Windows creates a new folder with the zip name when extracting the file zip file. The registry would be the cleanest and least obstrusive.

The following seems to work, but there are alternative implementations, such as this one that uses GetDefaultCommConfig instead.



C:


#include <stdio.h>
#include <windows.h>

int  main()
{
    printf("Detecting port...\n");
    for (int portNumber = 1; portNumber < 256; ++portNumber)
    {
        wchar_t strPort[16];
        swprintf_s(strPort, L"\\\\.\\com%d", portNumber);
        HANDLE hSerial = CreateFile(strPort, GENERIC_READ | GENERIC_WRITE, 0, 0, OPEN_EXISTING, FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NORMAL, 0);
        if (hSerial != INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE)
        {
            CloseHandle(hSerial);
            printf("Detected port:  COM%d\n", portNumber);
        }
    }
    return 0;
}

EDIT: I should add that another problem with "auto-detect" if that, for any reason, the code fails to see the COM port as available, the user may never be able to select it unless there is a UI control for showing all ports. That's why I suggested the "store last settings" approach. It's less smart and more reliable.


----------



## uderman

Surge2018 said:


> Thought you would find this interesting: I recently acquired the *Apple TV X* (AppleTV X) - a heavily modified Apple TV 4K. There are a couple of reviews online, with more coming, I'm told. I have no affiliation to the company.
> 
> The image quality is simply stunning! Honestly, I was not expecting the level of improvement over the normal ATV. It is better than the Kaleidescape (and mine uses an optional linear power supply). Sharpness and overall contrast is significantly improved. Audio quality is also the best I have heard from a streaming platform. If you are interested in the best streaming image quality, the ATVX is well worth it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 3345935


What is exactly upgraded for $2,500? The website mentions nothing. The reviews mention nothing.


----------



## Surge2018

uderman said:


> What is exactly upgraded for $2,500? The website mentions nothing. The reviews mention nothing.


???
LOTS of detail on the website and in reviews:


AppleTV X - Engineering










Xtreme Projectors Hotrodded Apple TV 4K Video StreamerImpressions: A Brief BLAST about the Xtreme Projectors Hot-Rodded Apple TV (TVX) 4K Video Streamer - Positive Feedback


Impressions: A Brief BLAST about the Xtreme Projectors Hotrodded Apple TV 4K Video Streamer




positive-feedback.com





Guys, a tip to save us all time: if you don’t believe the data and the reviews, don’t waste our time posting about it. If you don’t buy into it, great. I’m just a data point that says it’s a huge improvement. If you don’t agree - great. I don’t want to turn this thread into a ‘what difference can it make’ back and forth. 
I posted here because the Lumagen audience _should_ be interested in maximizing content quality, especially video quality. After all, without great content, there is not much point to having a Lumagen (or any A/V system, for that matter).


----------



## thebland

[Laughing]. I read the review - complete crap. This is definition of snake oil: Anecdotal excellence. Reminds me of the Theta Compli Blu Ray player - err, dropping an Oppo into a Theta chassis and magically 'hotrodding' it into a reference player!


----------



## fatherom

thebland said:


> [Laughing]. I read the review - complete crap. This is definition of snake oil: Anecdotal excellence. Reminds me of the Theta Compli Blu Ray player - err, dropping an Oppo into a Theta chassis and magically 'hotrodding' it into a reference player!


There was that Lexicon clone that was essentially an Oppo 203 dropped into a different chassis....and cost $3500. I got into a huge war with the guy who ran the website that published the review and was claiming all kinds of crazy enhancements, but then some other audio review site tore apart a Lexicon and the jig was up. Total nonsense.


----------



## bosler.bruce

Surge2018 said:


> Guys, a tip to save us all time: if you don’t believe the data and the reviews, don’t waste our time posting about it. If you don’t buy into it, great. I’m just a data point that says it’s a huge improvement. If you don’t agree - great. I don’t want to turn this thread into a ‘what difference can it make’ back and forth.



Hopefully we will get comments and reviews from people like yourself who have experienced it.
Hopefully we will not get a lot of comments from those who have not. speculating why it should or shouldn't work. However, sadly, it has already started ... 

I don't really care what he did to it. If I can get a stunning improvement in streaming video and audio quality for $2500 then that is a small price compared to everything else I've spent.


----------



## Naiera

Yikes. Obvious BS is obvious.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

God I love AVS. The number of people here who are "experts" is just astounding and never ending.


----------



## fatherom

Chris_Stephens said:


> God I love AVS. The number of people here who are "experts" is just astounding and never ending.


But somehow the opposite isn't also criticized? Where's the proof and scientific studies and measurements that prove why I need a $2500 apple tv?


----------



## dormie1360

fatherom said:


> There was that Lexicon clone that was essentially an Oppo 203 dropped into a different chassis....and cost $3500. I got into a huge war with the guy who ran the website that published the review and was claiming all kinds of crazy enhancements, but then some other audio review site tore apart a Lexicon and the jig was up. Total nonsense.


Gosh, I remember that. After it was confirmed it was an Oppo the argument was the heavy duty chassis prevented lower sub frequencies in your room from disturbing the spindle drive thereby improving performance.

Sorry for the thread creep....not trying to take sides, but that whole Lexicon/Oppo thing was pretty funny.


----------



## ajbriones

I'm still pretty new to my LRP and have barely explored its many features. I'm curious if it's possible to create a shortcut button that can:

crop the image (similar to pressing up+up on the remote)
move the image down 1-2 fields
Is that something the LRP is capable of doing? If so, can someone be so kind as to point me to how?


----------



## Chris_Stephens

fatherom said:


> But somehow the opposite isn't also criticized? Where's the proof and scientific studies and measurements that prove why I need a $2500 apple tv?


Usally its in the proof of people buying product, posting reviews and 3rd party reviewers posting reviews. Its not just specs. BUT you can just believe what you want of course. Cognitive bias is a common problem today. You do properly represent AVS tho


----------



## fatherom

Chris_Stephens said:


> Usally its in the proof of people buying product, posting reviews and 3rd party reviewers posting reviews. Its not just specs. BUT you can just believe what you want of course. Cognitive bias is a common problem today. You do properly represent AVS tho


But the following: people buying the product, posting reviews, and 3rd party reviewers posting reviews are ALL subjective, and not objective. For something that involves such a huge cost increase over the base item, there needs to be scientific evidence that proves it's worth it.

Me questioning the validity of such an exorbitant claim is the exact OPPOSITE of cognitive bias.

Not sure what "you do properly represent AVS tho" means.

EDIT: didn't realize, until just now, that you are the one who does these mods, Chris.


----------



## audioguy

thebland said:


> [Laughing]. I read the review - complete crap. This is definition of snake oil: Anecdotal excellence. Reminds me of the Theta Compli Blu Ray player - err, dropping an Oppo into a Theta chassis and magically 'hotrodding' it into a reference player!


Where is the review of this $2500 AppleTV?


----------



## thebland

audioguy said:


> Where is the review of this $2500 AppleTV?


There is no ‘review’ per se. just some over exuberant goofball who wrote up his excitement on this snake oil.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

fatherom said:


> For something that involves such a huge cost increase over the base item, there needs to be scientific evidence that proves it's worth it.


If a person reviews a product and says its way better and everyone who reviews it says the same thing with zero people saying otherwise. Wouldn't that seem to indicate statistical validity of the claim ? That is the science behind reviews and ratings used everyday by everyone.



fatherom said:


> Me questioning the validity of such an exorbitant claim is the exact OPPOSITE of cognitive bias.


Is it ? You seem to have a pretty well defined view of this that seems pretty fixed. I am not sure anything would alter your view. Why would this post of his cause you such adverse reaction ? maybe it IS true. Maybe this is a big step and maybe that cost comes from labor and parts. You seem to have made a decision based on ? Bias ?

But I think this is not the place for a debate. Plus this thread is not about this product.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

thebland said:


> There is no ‘review’ per se. just some over exuberant goofball who wrote up his excitement on this snake oil.


The editor of Positive Feedback.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

Chris_Stephens said:


> The editor of Positive Feedback.











Masthead - Positive Feedback


Current Contributors as of 04/2022 Editor - in - Chief David W. Robinson Managing Editors Dave Clark Carol Clark Senior Editors Myles Astor Marshall Nack Senior Associate Editors Arnis Balgalvis Jeff Day Frank Doris Wayne Goins Gary Lea Steve Lefkowicz Robert H. Levi, At-Large John Marks...




positive-feedback.com


----------



## fatherom

Chris_Stephens said:


> If a person reviews a product and says its way better and everyone who reviews it says the same thing with zero people saying otherwise. Wouldn't that seem to indicate statistical validity of the claim ? That is the science behind reviews and ratings used everyday by everyone.


To me, what you're describing is the very embodiment of expectation bias and placebo effect. (unless there are technological measurements that prove what the enhancements are actually doing, THAT would answer what you said when you said "I am not sure anything would alter your view")


----------



## Kris Deering

Send me one. I’ll do a controlled A/B against another ATV, a disc player and Kscape using the same content. I’ll get a few participants as well for blind testing.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

fatherom said:


> To me, what you're describing is the very embodiment of expectation bias and placebo effect. (unless there are technological measurements that prove what the enhancements are actually doing)


Do you remember when CDs first came out ? Back then no one knew what Jitter was. CDs were roundly reviewed by people with test equipment as perfect. Yet all the high end audio magazines said they sounded terrible. As time went along, JITTER was discovered as a big contributor to digital sound quality. All those reviewers who only could look at things thru their existing tools said digital audio was perfect and they were fully wrong.

HDMI, and TDMS, is FULL of crap. Jim at Lumagen can tell you that, hahaha.. 

So give me a paper on how jitter on HDMI effects picture or sound. Because Jim has been sure to minizine it. So it must matter right ? Where is this science tying HDMI jitter to the human visual perception model ?


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Send me one. I’ll do a controlled A/B against another ATV, a disc player and Kscape using the same content. I’ll get a few participants as well for blind testing.


That would absolutely rock.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

Kris Deering said:


> Send me one. I’ll do a controlled A/B against another ATV, a disc player and Kscape using the same content. I’ll get a few participants as well for blind testing.


This has already been done. More then once. I believe the poster has a k-scape. 

This is my reference system. Current projector is a Sony 380.




























This is a vid of the room but its 6 years old. So older equip. Playlist.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsa3Gd_u0NG2PEJ44XrFNbxYeaKZkwPy0


----------



## Chris_Stephens

You guys did note from the ATVX page that I made the best CRT projector in history right ? With published specs and everything in every magazine at the time. Snake Oil huh ? hahaha...


----------



## Chris_Stephens

But this debate needs to stop. Its off topic for this thread and Jims product is awesome. We have talked alot over years. So lets just stop posting on his product page.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Whilst I can't add a subjective opinion as I haven't seen one in action, I do think that there is much to be gained, in so far as credibility goes, with objective evidence.

There are many claims about de-jittering things such as the CPU and smoothing the spectra output. In order to make these claims with any credibility these must be measurable both before and after with demonstrable differences. Indeed, much is made about the superior performance of the test equipment itself.

The simple answer is to post the measurements. Whether those measurements result in audible and visual improvements is a different issue altogether.

I am not saying that there are no audible and visual improvements, but the lack of objective evidence promotes suspicion and there are several claims that are pseudo-science at best and bordering on fraudulent at worst which casts doubt over the technical knowledge and understanding of the designer. Both this suspicion and doubt over technical competency are easily addressed with measurements.

Once measurements are provided then people can debate (Preferably in another thread) if the measured differences result in anything which can be discerned by humans in the application for which it is intended.


----------



## Surge2018

bosler.bruce said:


> Hopefully we will get comments and reviews from people like yourself who have experienced it.
> Hopefully we will not get a lot of comments from those who have not. speculating why it should or shouldn't work. However, sadly, it has already started ...
> 
> I don't really care what he did to it. If I can get a stunning improvement in streaming video and audio quality for $2500 then that is a small price compared to everything else I've spent.


Yes, exactly.
At least not everyone is ignorant. I love the guy who said it’s “anecdotal” when I’m posting exactly the opposite.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Whether those measurements result in audible and visual improvements is a different issue altogether.


Right. So the point of making the measurements is ? And what your saying is that humans need to be the judge and this determines if the measurements matter ? Soooooooooo....... We are back to look at the statistics of the people with them ?

This is all off topic. Lets all agreee to disagree.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Chris_Stephens said:


> This has already been done. More then once. I believe the poster has a k-scape.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsa3Gd_u0NG2PEJ44XrFNbxYeaKZkwPy0


What are the qualifications, experience and what is the technical competency of the testers? Kris has an established Internet footprint which people can see and form their own option about the credibility of the output. With any test, evaluation or review the credibility of the individual(s) performing it us of paramount importance. In my opinion Kris certainly has much more credibility than any self-proclaimed expert on the internet.

Credibility and trust are key to convincing any sensible person to try the subjective benefits for themselves. Neither are apparent here at the moment I am afraid to say. In my option not taking Kris up on his offer would further dent any trust and credibility and do more reputational harm than good.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Chris_Stephens said:


> Right. So the point of making the measurements is ? And what your saying is that humans need to be the judge and this determines if the measurements matter ? Soooooooooo....... We are back to look at the statistics of the people with them ?
> 
> This is all off topic. Lets all agreee to disagree.


Not what I am saying at all...... Do I need to be blunt?


----------



## Chris_Stephens

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Do I need to be blunt?


I dont know, your asking me to make a subjective call. I need science to answer this.


----------



## fatherom

Here's my take on this, and I promise this'll be the last time I say anything on this thread.

Somehow, me being _skeptical_ is being re-labelled as cognitive bias. Being skeptical is the very heart of the scientific method. If I want into a lab experiment expecting an outcome and all exuberant about what I'm perceiving as that outcome (without measurements), I'd be ruining the experiment.

Second: why do all these audio/video-phile upgrades cost so damned much? Surely there must be a power supply that costs $200 and can be added externally to an Apple TV and get you 90% of the way there (presuming the effect is real and measurable). But somehow, the Lexicon Oppo cost $3000. This thing costs $2500. The list goes on. I would HOPE people would be skeptical of something that goes from $200 when Apple sells it, to $2500. That's more than a ten-fold increase in price.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Kris has an established Internet footprint


I have a established footprint going back 30 years in print making the best video products ever made. But I am invalid ? A snake oil salesman ? Hahahaha.. Oh my.. Thats hilarious..


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Chris_Stephens said:


> I dont know, your asking me to make a subjective call. I need science to answer this.


I think your rather glib answer proves my point.


----------



## audioguy

Chris_Stephens said:


> This has already been done. More then once. I believe the poster has a k-scape.
> 
> This is my reference system. Current projector is a Sony 380.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a vid of the room but its 6 years old. So older equip. Playlist.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsa3Gd_u0NG2PEJ44XrFNbxYeaKZkwPy0


Gorgeous room but where can I see the A/B comparison to a stock AppleTV.


----------



## thebland

This ‘hot rodded’Apple TV is clearly powered by You're pushing a black box that will turn a streaming device into a KScape - since this comparison, as you say, has already been done. You gotta do better to grift your product on this thread. Impressive balls.


----------



## by96

Chris_Stephens said:


> I have a established footprint going back 30 years in print making the best video products ever made. But I am invalid ? A snake oil salesman ? Hahahaha.. Oh my.. Thats hilarious..


I know I am going to regret this, but, I don't know you and I don't know your prior successes in the video field. That being said, when justified skepticism over a 10-fold-plus mark-up to the price of an item many of us use, is met with "Do you know who I am?" type responses, one is not impressed with the marketing of the item. But, maybe this is not a market you want or need for your item to succeed.


----------



## audioguy

Chris_Stephens said:


> If a person reviews a product and says its way better and everyone who reviews it says the same thing with zero people saying otherwise. Wouldn't that seem to indicate statistical validity of the claim ? That is the science behind reviews and ratings used everyday by everyone.


Not necessarily. That nasty "expectation bias" can play a role. 

But a blind comparison of a standard ATV and this product should be pretty straight forward. And Kris Deering has the technical backgrouod to set up and conduct such a test. And when 90% of the folks in that blind test selects the "high priced spread" as the best, then I'm a believer. Until such time, I will let other spend their money. And if I were to read all of the reasons that such a blind test is inappropriate/invalid/etc, that will tell me all I need to know.


----------



## thebland

This ‘hot rodded’Apple TV is clearly powered by ego. You're pushing a black box that will turn a streaming device into a KScape - since this comparison, as you say, has already been done. You gotta do better to grift your product on this thread. Impressive balls. .


----------



## fatherom

by96 said:


> I know I am going to regret this, but, I don't know you and I don't know your prior successes in the video field. That being said, when justified skepticism over a 10-fold-plus mark-up to the price of an item many of us use, is met with "Do you know who I am?" type responses, one is not impressed with the marketing of the item. But, maybe this is not a market you want or need for your item to succeed.


Exactly. To me, posting a bunch of "impressive" looking photos of ones unrelated gear, etc...is just self-aggrandizing chest thumping that undermines ones position and makes one look foolish. Truly rich (wealthy, philantropic, etc) people don't need to flaunt. Their deeds speak for themselves.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

fatherom said:


> Here's my take on this, and I promise this'll be the last time I say anything on this thread.
> 
> Somehow, me being _skeptical_ is being re-labelled as cognitive bias. Being skeptical is the very heart of the scientific method. If I want into a lab experiment expecting an outcome and all exuberant about what I'm perceiving as that outcome (without measurements), I'd be ruining the experiment.
> 
> Second: why do all these audio/video-phile upgrades cost so damned much? Surely there must be a power supply that costs $200 and can be added externally to an Apple TV and get you 90% of the way there (presuming the effect is real and measurable). But somehow, the Lexicon Oppo cost $3000. This thing costs $2500. The list goes on. I would HOPE people would be skeptical of something that goes from $200 when Apple sells it, to $2500. That's more than a ten-fold increase in price.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


That is just a AWESOME reply. and a great question. 

For the ATV.. I can cover costs clearly so you know..

The ATV itself is $179, unless on sale. The linear is $150. I replace parts on the ATV board, 2 high end clock chips cost $87. I have other parts on the board and those tiotal $35. I have to have the board sent out for SMD rework. This costs $350 for a bunch of stupid reasons. There are parts I use outside the board. Those cost $61. There is special wire used that goes to the connector. Thats $28. Thats $829 in raw cost without labor. Each unit to take apart and put back together and all the soldering and making the final unit take 6 hours of my labor where I can't do other normal work. It takes time to package each one up. As my day job I can make $90/hr I loose about $600 in lost labor I could do. But really its a full day because 6hrs ends up being a whole day. So really i loose $800 making one that I have to cover in the cost. So all total its $1700 mfg cost to make one. But I need to profit and I need to have a dist/dealer margin too. So while $2500 sounds high, its not..

I AM SORRY I can't do it for less, but, I cant. I would LOVE TO.. I do now and then have b-stock units where a lineal got dinged or something. and I sell those for cheap.

I am sorry I cant make them cheaper. Its expensive.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

thebland said:


> This ‘hot rodded’Apple TV is clearly powered by ego. You're pushing a black box that will turn a streaming device into a KScape - since this comparison, as you say, has already been done. You gotta do better to grift your product on this thread. Impressive balls. .


No I dont. I don't need to "grift" it. It sells itself when people go see it at my dist showroom or they have friends with it. Im glad you like my balls tho


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Chris_Stephens said:


> I have a established footprint going back 30 years in print making the best video products ever made. But I am invalid ? A snake oil salesman ? Hahahaha.. Oh my.. Thats hilarious..


Not doubting any of that at all but it isn't what I asked. You are not independent by definition, and you are essentially marking you own homework. I was asking about the independent testers that you say have already performed the comparison that Kris has offered to do.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Not doubting any of that at all but it isn't what I asked. You are not independent by definition, and you are essentially marking you own homework. I was asking about the independent testers that you say have already performed the comparison that Kris has offered to do.


The guy who posted is independent. So is the editor and chief in Positive Feedback. And that guy has a LONG history of doing real reviews in print going back decades.


----------



## fatherom

Chris_Stephens said:


> The guy who posted is independent. So is the editor and chief in Positive Feedback. And that guy has a LONG history of doing real reviews in print going back decades.


He's asking for independent testers who have done a very specific thing: controlled blind A/B testing


----------



## Chris_Stephens

Chris_Stephens said:


> The guy who posted is independent. So is the editor and chief in Positive Feedback. And that guy has a LONG history of doing real reviews in print going back decades.


Do you really think I would trsut Kris as independant ? Hahaha.. I think I will stick to people like real reviewers who do print.


----------



## fatherom

Chris_Stephens said:


> Do you really think I would trsut Kris as independant ? Hahaha.. I think I will stick to people like real reviewers who do print.


Ummmm...do you know that Kris writes reviews for Sound and Vision?


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

Chris_Stephens said:


> That is just a AWESOME reply. and a great question.
> 
> For the ATV.. I can cover costs clearly so you know..
> 
> The ATV itself is $179, unless on sale. The linear is $150. I replace parts on the ATV board, 2 high end clock chips cost $87. I have other parts on the board and those tiotal $35. I have to have the board sent out for SMD rework. This costs $350 for a bunch of stupid reasons. There are parts I use outside the board. Those cost $61. There is special wire used that goes to the connector. Thats $28. Thats $829 in raw cost without labor. Each unit to take apart and put back together and all the soldering and making the final unit take 6 hours of my labor where I can't do other normal work. It takes time to package each one up. As my day job I can make $90/hr I loose about $600 in lost labor I could do. But really its a full day because 6hrs ends up being a whole day. So really i loose $800 making one that I have to cover in the cost. So all total its $1700 mfg cost to make one. But I need to profit and I need to have a dist/dealer margin too. So while $2500 sounds high, its not..
> 
> I AM SORRY I can't do it for less, but, I cant. I would LOVE TO.. I do now and then have b-stock units where a lineal got dinged or something. and I sell those for cheap.
> 
> I am sorry I cant make them cheaper. Its expensive.


Cost is really not the issue though. The results should speak for themselves and people can then make up their own minds as to the value of the proposition. The commercials are a matter for you and your business not the consumer.

The issue is one of credibility. I have already suggested at least three very simple and easy ways in which this can be established but you seem intent on arguing with me instead which I suspect will be to your detriment.

Rather than being your enemy I am actually trying to be helpful by helping you to establish the credibility that is lacking.

One final piece of friendly advice which you can take however you want before I bow out to save me from saying what we are all thinking is that arguing in public with your potential customers is rarely a sensible business move.


----------



## OzHDHT

I can't even get the product site to load as my broadband provider is filtering it, something that I've never actually seen happen tbh. But now I know it cost $2500, lol I'll pass....

Also blows me out this guy doesn't even know who Kris is


----------



## Chris_Stephens

by96 said:


> Maybe know your audience a little better. @Kris Deering is highly respected on this thread and the field at large. Your prior comment about him was completely inappropriate, especially when so much self-aggrandizing is going on.


OMG.. You are SO right. I sent him PMs. We should know someone in common Tom Norton. Tom reviewed my proj back in the day. https://www.xymox1.com/Resumex/Press/SGHTReview.pdf

Yopu bet he could review it. I sent him a PM on this.


----------



## bosler.bruce

I think the moderators should delete all of these posts about the Apple TV. They are completely off topic as *this is the Lumagen forum !!! *

Have you all not been involved in enough of these internet pissing contests to know they are pointless? 
You are all a bunch of Pee Wees
Would you all please stop so we can get back to our regularly scheduled program?


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

One final comment. I agree that this discussion should not be in this thread but it shouldn't therefore be deleted. Moved to another thread definitely but not deleted.

Deletion in my opinion would demonstrate a lack of openness, honesty and transparency.


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

$2500 and still no bitstreaming?!?!


----------



## Surge2018

audioguy said:


> Where is the review of this $2500 AppleTV?


I posted the links.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

xPLAYRZx said:


> Actually, the site is blacklisted so will likely throw up security warnings for many users. So... it's your problem (assuming you own the site).
> 
> View attachment 3346063
> 
> View attachment 3346064
> 
> 
> Security Analysis for: AppleTV X - HERE
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ Exactly THIS^^
> 
> Nobody cares about some snakeoil Apple TV product. We're here to discuss Lumagen.


Not the way it looks to me.. IP Blacklist Check | RBL Check - BlacklistMaster

i just tried a whole bunch of black list checking and its not listed on any of them... Maybe you can provide a link ?


----------



## DrDon

Bickering deleted. Probably didn't get all of it, but from here forward, discuss the topic and not other members.

Questions or comments? PM me. Don't post those here


----------



## Dave Harper

by96 said:


> I know I am going to regret this, but, I don't know you and I don't know your prior successes in the video field. That being said, when justified skepticism over a 10-fold-plus mark-up to the price of an item many of us use, is met with "Do you know who I am?" type responses, one is not impressed with the marketing of the item. But, maybe this is not a market you want or need for your item to succeed.


I can vouch for Chris and knew of him from back in the old CRT projector days. He is legit for sure. (Not that my word means anything around here either haha!)

I believe he used to visit our CEDIA and CES booths featuring the TAW HD800 and HD900 high end CRTs which were also based on the Electrohome Marquee chassis, paired with the then award winning and class leading TAW Rock+ scaler. Dwight Renzema worked for us then and actually moved to Lumagen if I recall correctly?

Tom Norton also reviewed our TAW products so I agree Chris should send one of these modded ATVs to Kris. I’d love to know more about it and what he thinks.


----------



## Chris_Stephens

Dave Harper said:


> I can vouch for Chris and knew of him from back in the old CRT projector days. He is legit for sure. (Not that my word means anything around here either haha!)
> 
> I believe he used to visit our CEDIA and CES booths featuring the TAW HD800 and HD900 high end CRTs which were also based on the Electrohome Marquee chassis, paired with the then award winning and class leading TAW Rock+ scaler. Doug Renzema worked for us then and actually moved to Lumagen if I recall correctly?
> 
> Tom Norton also reviewed our TAW products so I agree Chris should send one of these modded ATVs to Kris. I’d love to know more about it and what he thinks.


Thank you Dave ! Yes I remember the HD800 and HD900.. Yes I was pitching the Teranex and a HD-SDI input on the marquee with a custom input card.

But. This is off topic.

I have a lot of these ATVX units out in the field now. In many hands you and I know. As we get into next year I have several things planned. I have zero interest in generating more sales then I have now. I do however have a keen interest in pushing some science forward on HDMI and maybe decoding chips. I am seeing things very clearly, as are others along with reviewers, that seem to be beyond what we know to measure right now. Something is up with HDMI and TDMS that we can see, but dont have good measurements yet to characterize. So I do need more eyes on the ATVX to sort this out. You could also do this for me. My next batch of units that is not spoken for will be dec 15th. I am going to hold some back for reviewers and people like you. I would like to move possibly towards a SMPTE paper with some good solid double blind AB work in a truly controlled study with a reasonable size and show something is up on HDMI. I dont think we can pin it down what the measurements are that create the differences, but, if we can do good statistics with a good study group showing there IS something going on, and get published, we could spur more research. THIS is my goal for next year. I have invited Kris to this also. Once I have enough pros we can work and get some groups fo this kind of study.

So. I hate to disappoint people, but, my goal is not selling snake oil. Its to do good science that might improve HDMI across a wide range of products.

Again, we should not post off topic. BUT as the orginal poster said, the ATVX does make a great source for the Lumagen.


----------



## Dave Harper

Chris_Stephens said:


> Thank you Dave ! Yes I remember the HD800 and HD900.. Yes I was pitching the Teranex and a HD-SDI input on the marquee with a custom input card.
> 
> But. This is off topic.
> 
> I have a lot of these ATVX units out in the field now. In many hands you and I know. As we get into next year I have several things planned. I have zero interest in generating more sales then I have now. I do however have a keen interest in pushing some science forward on HDMI and maybe decoding chips. I am seeing things very clearly, as are others along with reviewers, that seem to be beyond what we know to measure right now. Something is up with HDMI and TDMS that we can see, but dont have good measurements yet to characterize. So I do need more eyes on the ATVX to sort this out. You could also do this for me. My next batch of units that is not spoken for will be dec 15th. I am going to hold some back for reviewers and people like you. I would like to move possibly towards a SMPTE paper with some good solid double blind AB work in a truly controlled study with a reasonable size and show something is up on HDMI. I dont think we can pin it down what the measurements are that create the differences, but, if we can do good statistics with a good study group showing there IS something going on, and get published, we could spur more research. THIS is my goal for next year. I have invited Kris to this also. Once I have enough pros we can work and get some groups fo this kind of study.
> 
> So. I hate to disappoint people, but, my goal is not selling snake oil. Its to do good science that might improve HDMI across a wide range of products.
> 
> Again, we should not post off topic. BUT as the orginal poster said, the ATVX does make a great source for the Lumagen.


That sounds incredible and very interesting. I’d love to check one out! When checking the website I see a company in Northern NJ which is near to where I do contract work for projectorscreen.com. Maybe I can check one out there if they have one the next time I’m up in that area? We can take this to PM and maybe email after if you’d like. 

Those SDI mods did wonders didn’t they! I think Lumagen took advantage of them as well iirc.


----------



## Sandel

Very interesting discussion, though maybe somewhat off-topic here.
I'm sure it's not snake oil at all (saying this as a proud owner of a CineMike modified ATV).
Would be very interesting to have a A/B shoot-out between both modded versions.
If Chris Stephens mod is only half as good as CineMikes, I would highly recommend it.


----------



## sandyj

jrp said:


> bjorg:
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> I think the program could put the COM port in the log file. Then the next time, if a log file exists, it would read the log file and use the same COM port.
> 
> ===
> 
> It seems the big issue is people figuring out how to find the COM port the first time. For this issue, offering COM ports that are active, even if more than one, seems a good option. I think the updater could send a Radiance Pro query to any ports not locked by another program, and this way determine the exact port. I am not sure if there would be an issue with this, but it seems it should work in most cases.
> 
> We would need someone to provide the C code to find active COM ports.
> 
> ===
> 
> What I do, and recommend, is after finding the COM port the first time, and as long as no real device is using COM1, I change the COM port under the Advanced settings to COM1. This easy to remember and since COM1 is the default I do not even need to select a COM port for updates -- which I do rather often as you can imagine.


This might be useful to list the ports available using the command prompt or could be used in a simple batch file for those that need it.

*Command prompt commands*
Option 1 at the Command prompt type this command and hit enter
mode

Option 2 at the Command prompt type this command and hit enter
reg query HKLM\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\SERIALCOMM

Appears the active comports are stored in the registry at HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\DEVICEMAP\SERIALCOMM


----------



## OMARDRIS

jrp said:


> On the COM port selection for updates:
> 
> We know it is possible for the Pro updater to find which COM ports are active. We do not have the code for this, but I understand it is not too much code. If someone out there has the Windows C source code to find the COM ports, and is willing to send it to lumagen.com support email, that would be much appreciated.
> 
> If we get this code, I believe it would be reasonable for us to add it to future updates, and then the updater can recommend the COM port rather than the user needing to select it.


Hi Jim,
do you mean a function that searches for a connected device (e.g. Radiance Pro) on any COM port?
So something like:










This looks so simple, but it is not trivial.
Peter


----------



## bobof

The biggest frustration for me is that (at least in the case of audio) while there are excellent Test & Measurement solutions available that can operate up to speaker level outputs and could certainly measure if there is a resultant change in the output at the end of the chain from a given system tweak, to date for HDMI source devices I've not seen anyone take an otherwise excellent system, swap such a tweaked source for an untweaked source, and offer up measurements showing the difference in the last analogue electronic product in the system (which is where they would have to manifest to have any chance of being audible). Instead we're usually concentrating on observed measurements on things that are far away from the last D-A product in the system (eg TMDS jitter on an HDMI output, internal noise on a power rail, conducted EMI measured via a LISN on a mains input etc), and surmising these may result in audible benefit, and then "confirming" it with sighted testing. Not every change in a circuit that can yield improvements in such "local" matters will result in an actual improvement in the D-A product at the end of the chain, and many improvements may only address matters of vanity.

Once you get to the point of measuring a difference, there are then further questions of the audibility of things like jitter products, masking of harmonic distortion, etc, which mean even if you do measure a difference at the output of the chain it may not be audible (to some / many / all listeners). But I'm yet to see anyone even cross the first hurdle showing a benefit to the conversion product. It would be great if someone at least did that kind of test; and showed that the tweaked source did manifest in some somehow improved audio signal on the final output of the system; the discussion as to whether that improvement is audible is another matter, but at least there would be a technical thread to pull on.

Video is much trickier. I don't believe there are many off-the-shelf T&M systems where you could have an electronic eye "watch" actual pixels being output with sufficiently high resolution in the frequency or time domain. The closest I believe you could get would be to take a system where some improvement is observed by some "golden eyes" types, and look for differences in the output of the last device electronic device in the display when switching the source back and forth. In the case of a JVC projector, for instance, you'd probably need to make some jig to interface to the output of the custom panel drive ASIC, looking at the signals being sent to the panels, and watch for differences in what you observed there. If you could detect difference then when swapping the sources it would be very interesting. Alternatively, some proper blind ABX testing.

Regrettably the Venn diagrams of "folk with access to high end audio / video gear" and "folk with the means / inclination to measure the output of such systems" rarely seem to publicly meet!

None of the above is to say that the difference doesn't exist, just that for the most part the evidence outside of anecdote isn't very strong, and it would be really nice to be able to point at something showing measured improvement at the end of the system chain.


----------



## HTRaleigh

DrDon said:


> Bickering deleted. Probably didn't get all of it, but from here forward, discuss the topic and not other members.
> 
> Questions or comments? PM me. Don't post those here


Don - Any way to move most of the last 4 pages to some other location?This hijacking has ruined the flow of the Lumagen discussion.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Well at the risk of prolonging this discussion...i was only talking to a colleague the other day and was pondering whatever happened to Chris Stephens. We were talking about CRT projectors and i was mentioing how i'd seen his modded marquee with the terranex a couple of times...it was good!


----------



## dlinsley

bjorg said:


> A good location in the registry might be something like HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Lumagen\RadianceProUpdater since the COM location is specific to the machine that is connected.


If the registry is going to be used, please use HKEY_CURRENT_USER so that we don't have to elevate to admin just to write this.


----------



## bosler.bruce

bobof said:


> The biggest frustration for me is that (at least in the case of audio) while there are excellent Test & Measurement solutions available that can operate up to speaker level outputs and could *certainly measure if there is a resultant change in the output* at the end of the chain from a given system tweak,


I didn't read the rest of your post because you started with a fundamentally flawed premise. There is endless debate on subjective versus objective in the audio world. There is endless debate on the efficacy of cables, power conditioners, digital re-clockers, differences in DACs, and on and on and on and on.

The idea that we can completely quantify what our senses detect with some sort of measuring device is a dream. You can't precisely measure how things taste or smell or feel. How in the world do think we can quantify sight and hearing?

The idea that we can sort out differences in audio with measurements is just flat out incorrect. Yes, we can weed out poor performers, but we can't precisely determine the cream of the crop.


----------



## fatherom

bosler.bruce said:


> I didn't read the rest of your post because you started with a fundamentally flawed premise. There is endless debate on subjective versus objective in the audio world. There is endless debate on the efficacy of cables, power conditioners, digital re-clockers, differences in DACs, and on and on and on and on.
> 
> The idea that we can completely quantify what our senses detect with some sort of measuring device is a dream. You can't precisely measure how things taste or smell or feel. How in the world do think we can quantify sight and hearing?
> 
> The idea that we can sort out differences in audio with measurements is just flat out incorrect.


Completely disagree. If you HAD kept reading the rest of his post, all he was saying was it would be nice to FIRST measure any difference that the mods are making, THEN people can decide/debate on the audio differences, subjective differences, etc.

But the fact that measurements COULD be taken, and aren't, lends more evidence (to me) that such modifications aren't doing anything tangible.

Just my opinion. I realize others have a different opinion. And that's the very nature of debate/discussion. In the last 15 years or so (coincidentally, with the advent of social media), we've all gotten so entrenched, and we read things not to inform ourselves (and possibly be swayed), but to affirm ourselves.


----------



## bosler.bruce

bobof said:


> could certainly measure if there is a resultant change in the output at the end of the chain


this *IS* a fundamentally flawed premise. There is absolutely no way we can say with certainty that we can measure if there is a resultant change in the output

The premise assumes that we have such a complete understanding of how our senses work that we know everything there is to measure and have devices at least as sensitive as our senses to take these measurements. 

This is the lunacy over at Audio Science Review. "my measurements say they are the same so they are the same"

and now I will drop it because if you don't see that then you are too entrenched in your views to do so.


----------



## bjorg

dlinsley said:


> If the registry is going to be used, please use HKEY_CURRENT_USER so that we don't have to elevate to admin just to write this.


Doesn’t opening a COM port already require Admin privileges? I was suggesting the local machine key, because the it’s obviously specific to the machine and not the user. But if it requires more hoops, then I’m with you. Let’s NOT do that! 😀


----------



## Erod

ajbriones said:


> I'm afraid that if I ever get my setup just right, I might have nothing left to do but sit around and watch movies and listen to music on it. Where's the fun in that?


Lol, that sounds horrible.


----------



## bjorg

What do others use for chroma calibration? The S&M disc on the Oppo shows indeed a chroma shift, but how can I verify the AppleTV and Kaleidescape players?

Also, for fixing the the Oppo chroma shift, it looks like the correct solution is to use another inputs entry for 4K resolution, apply the correction there, and then exclusively use it for the Oppo. Is there a way to copy the input settings automatically or do I have to go through all settings and write them down? Or, maybe there’s a better way?


----------



## FenceMan

bosler.bruce said:


> this *IS* a fundamentally flawed premise. There is absolutely no way we can say with certainty that we can measure if there is a resultant change in the output
> 
> The premise assumes that we have such a complete understanding of how our senses work that we know everything there is to measure and have devices at least as sensitive as our senses to take these measurements.
> 
> This is the lunacy over at Audio Science Review. "my measurements say they are the same so they are the same"
> 
> and now I will drop it because if you don't see that then you are too entrenched in your views to do so.


He is claiming video improvements - of course they can be measured. You take a lossless capture of both and compare them. We have been doing it for months to the point that people were annoyed at the level I was zooming in on the captures - if there is any difference there we will find it. There are also computer programs which will highlight the differences in the two captures. Step one is to see if there are differences, then everyone can debate the effect of those changes (if they exist).


----------



## dlinsley

bjorg said:


> Doesn’t opening a COM port already require Admin privileges? I was suggesting the local machine key, because the it’s obviously specific to the machine and not the user. But if it requires more hoops, then I’m with you. Let’s NOT do that! 😀


The firmware updater works fine for me without elevating, but the config app needs it. Very odd


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> What do others use for chroma calibration? The S&M disc on the Oppo shows indeed a chroma shift, but how can I verify the AppleTV and Kaleidescape players?
> 
> Also, for fixing the the Oppo chroma shift, it looks like the correct solution is to use another inputs entry for 4K resolution, apply the correction there, and then exclusively use it for the Oppo. Is there a way to copy the input settings automatically or do I have to go through all settings and write them down? Or, maybe there’s a better way?


Are you talking about chroma offset? You adjust if you notice a delay. Oppo has had a one pixel delay since it came out and NO ONE was talking about it or complaining because no one was seeing it. So if you are not seeing it with content from sources, you probably shouldn't worry about it. Kscape has a delay with its 422 output, but it doesn't appear to with 444.


----------



## Dave Harper

fatherom said:


> But the fact that measurements COULD be taken, and aren't, lends more evidence (to me) that such modifications aren't doing anything tangible.


Isn’t that what he shows here?:



AppleTV X - Engineering


----------



## fatherom

Dave Harper said:


> Isn’t that what he shows here?:
> 
> 
> 
> AppleTV X - Engineering


This is just my take, but I also don't want to derail this thread too much more. Yes, that page shows a measurement of noise reduction inside the Apple TV due to the mods. But, the next step is measuring the hdmi signal itself, to see how it differs as a result of that noise reduction.


----------



## bobof

Dave Harper said:


> Isn’t that what he shows here?:
> 
> 
> 
> AppleTV X - Engineering


If it wasn't blacklisted by Bitdefender it would be easier to look at it... I have to read it on my phone.
But that was the point I was making. These measurements are internal to the product, with no correlation back to actual improvements that may or may not be experienced further down the chain in the system as a result of these improvements.
It is quite conceivable they do improve the conversion process in an AVR/P for instance, where you'd be able to measure it at the AVR/P output. But they may equally make no difference.
To find out if there has been a system benefit you need to get your measurements closer to the thing that the human actually experiences (the only times I've "experienced" power supplies directly coupled to me has been... unpleasant... lol). I propose that measurement at the point where this becomes an analogue signal pushed into a transducer or similar is a good place for that.

---

I find it odd the mish-mash of attitudes towards science in these kind of endeavours. On the one hand we're going to look at an improvement to a PSU internal to the product, measured with scientific equipment, and say that's definitely a benefit, but on the other hand we're not prepared to try and measure the benefits closer to the ultimate output of the system. The mind boggles...


----------



## Dave Harper

fatherom said:


> This is just my take, but I also don't want to derail this thread too much more. Yes, that page shows a measurement of noise reduction inside the Apple TV due to the mods. But, the next step is measuring the hdmi signal itself, to see how it differs as a result of that noise reduction.


OK I was thinking maybe that’s what you were alluding to and why I posed the question. Thanks for clarifying. 



bobof said:


> If it wasn't blacklisted by Bitdefender it would be easier to look at it... I have to read it on my phone.
> But that was the point I was making. These measurements are internal to the product, with no correlation back to actual improvements that may or may not be experienced further down the chain in the system as a result of these improvements.
> It is quite conceivable they do improve the conversion process in an AVR/P for instance, where you'd be able to measure it at the AVR/P output. But they may equally make no difference.
> To find out if there has been a system benefit you need to get your measurements closer to the thing that the human actually experiences (the only times I've "experienced" power supplies directly coupled to me has been... unpleasant... lol). I propose that measurement at the point where this becomes an analogue signal pushed into a transducer or similar is a good place for that.
> 
> ---
> 
> I find it odd the mish-mash of attitudes towards science in these kind of endeavours. On the one hand we're going to look at an improvement to a PSU internal to the product, measured with scientific equipment, and say that's definitely a benefit, but on the other hand we're not prepared to try and measure the benefits closer to the ultimate output of the system. The mind boggles...


I can agree with that. So people should work together to help get these measurements to happen instead of mocking him sight unseen, not saying you are, but others seem to be. You seem to want to help and get to that end goal.


----------



## bosler.bruce

FenceMan said:


> He is claiming video improvements - of course they can be measured.
> 
> if there is any difference there we will find it.


once again, ...... it is ridiculous to claim that we can measure everything that our senses are capable of detecting. 

Anybody that believes we completely understand how our brain processes the stimuli we receive and "if there is _any_ difference we will find it" is delusional

if you think otherwise we will never agree, so as a wise man Forrest Gump once said " that's all I have to say about that"


----------



## fatherom

bosler.bruce said:


> it is ridiculous to claim that we can measure everything that our senses are capable of detecting.


No, but we can certainly analyze the video before and after the mods and if there is NO difference, then we know the mods didn't do anything.


----------



## bosler.bruce

fatherom said:


> No, but we can certainly analyze the video before and after the mods and if there is NO difference, then we know the mods didn't do anything.


so you believe we have identified and completely understand everything that our eyes are capable of seeing, and that we have developed ways to perfectly measure and analyze all of this.

*wow*


----------



## fatherom

bosler.bruce said:


> so you believe we have identified and completely understand everything that our eyes are capable of seeing, and that we have developed ways to perfectly measure and analyze all of this.
> 
> *wow*


Ummm, no I was AGREEING with part of your statement. But, I DO think we have very simple tools that can take screengrabs and compare them. That would be a start, to see if the mods are actually affecting the image in any way.


----------



## bosler.bruce

fatherom said:


> to see if the mods are actually affecting the image in any way.
> 
> simple tools that can take screengrabs


please think about what you are saying..... If you believe we can detect if it is " actually affecting the image *in any way*" then you must believe "we have identified and completely understand everything that our eyes are capable of seeing, and that we have developed ways to perfectly measure and analyze all of this. "

you can't have it both ways, either we can measure how it is affected "in any way" or we can't... I'm saying we can't

here's another extremely important point that is often ignored .. *we don't watch screengrabs*. We watch things that are constantly changing. What our eyes/brains are processing changes dozens or more times each second. it is quite a stretch to think that what we see in a screengrab correlates perfectly with what we "see" when watching video.


----------



## fatherom

bosler.bruce said:


> please think about what you are saying..... If you believe we can detect if it is " actually affecting the image *in any way*" then you must believe "we have identified and completely understand everything that our eyes are capable of seeing, and that we have developed ways to perfectly measure and analyze all of this. "
> 
> you can't have it both ways, either we can measure how it is affected "in any way" or we can't... I'm saying we can't
> 
> here's another extremely important point that is often ignored .. *we don't watch screengrabs*. We watch things that are constantly changing. What our eyes/brains are processing changes dozens or more times each second. it is quite a stretch to think that what we see in a screengrab correlates perfectly with what we "see" when watching video.


If we take a sequence of screengrabs over the course of 10 seconds of video (240 screengrabs?) and there is no difference in the bmp image (RGB pixels at every pixel), then nothing has changed.

I'm not trying to understand any image differences (if there happen to be some) and their impact...I'm trying to see if the image has changed at all (which again, can be done with screengrab comparisons, and I'm sure others know more advanced ways of comparing images)


----------



## bosler.bruce

fatherom said:


> If we take a sequence of screengrabs over the course of 10 seconds of video (240 screengrabs?) and there is no difference in the bmp image (RGB pixels at every pixel), then *nothing has changed.*


You completely miss my point. Which is.... just because there might be no differences in what we measure with this test does not mean that everything is exactly the same and there will no difference in what we see. Just because "nothing has changed" in this particular test does not mean that absolutely nothing else has changed

I give up, good day


----------



## fatherom

bosler.bruce said:


> You completely miss my point. Which is.... just because there might be no differences in what we measure with this test does not mean that everything is exactly the same and there will no difference in what we see. Just because "nothing has changed" in this particular test does not mean that absolutely nothing else has changed
> 
> I give up, good day


Sure testing can’t cover every case. But if enough testing is done and there are no changes to the raw image when compared by a computer (rgb value at each pixel) then that does show meaningful information about the impact (or lack thereof) of the mods. 

The people touting these mods should welcome all kinds of rigorous testing, if they want their products to have credibility.


----------



## [email protected]

Hi, I got a question.
Can this configuration with LLDV will work?

Apple TV -> HDFury Vertex2 -> LRP 4242 -> JVC PJ

Normally HDR10 from Apple TV will be ouput as SDR 2020 in 4242 and what happens in case LLDV in the same loop?
Do I have to output it as HDR 2020 instead of SDR 2020 to make LLDV output correctly?

Thanks.


----------



## bobof

It's regrettable the original post happened in here on this subject. Hopefully discussion of this product and benefits it may offer can move somewhere less obtrusive. Are there any other threads relevant to this product?


Dave Harper said:


> I can agree with that. So people should work together to help get these measurements to happen instead of mocking him sight unseen, not saying you are, but others seem to be. You seem to want to help and get to that end goal.


I am certainly not mocking. I want to see more rigorous use of science to demonstrate measurable benefits, not marketing based on measurements that aren't necessarily useful (and may serve to mislead the uneducated - not suggesting intentionally). As an example, jitter is discussed. The effect of clock jitter on an audio converters susceptible to jitter is visible on FFT analysis of the audio signal resulting from the conversion. (I do work for a company that produces such T&M products...). If jitter in downstream audio conversion is a potential factor this resolves, it's not very hard to show (it's also often a problem the downstream device should have dealt with better, but that's another story!).


bosler.bruce said:


> once again, ...... it is ridiculous to claim that we can measure everything that our senses are capable of detecting.


I think there are two things at play that you're not separating. In the case of vision and hearing, I believe actually we do have better recording / measurement devices (not interpretations thereof) available than the human eyes and ears, and probably can capture everything and more than the eye and ear can see / hear. However, that doesn't necessarily represent the entirety of the emotional response to something, which brings in all kinds of intangibles that affect our perception, memories, environments, other senses, "feelings" are just some of the things that can impact how we experience something.
I was talking at all times about observing difference, not interpreting the difference as better or worse. For the later, you probably need to add some kind of "unsighted" testing (obviously you need to look at the video screen, but I mean without sight or knowledge of the equipment, other than knowledge that there are 2 or more different devices being looked at). Once you have identified statistically significant levels of audible or visible difference via your test subjects you can then look to try and correlate those results with the measurement data.


fatherom said:


> If we take a sequence of screengrabs over the course of 10 seconds of video (240 screengrabs?) and there is no difference in the bmp image (RGB pixels at every pixel), then nothing has changed.


I caveated video as difficult for a reason, I don't think such testing as you describe is all that is required; if you look at how a lot of in depth audio testing is done (such as the jitter example I gave earlier), it is with FFTs and averaging across many samples. And if you took the example of D-ILA projector, for instance, you're looking at larger multiples of the framerate owing to the panel refresh being faster than the refresh rate of the video. On something like a DLP, the mirror update rate is many, many times the refresh rate. The analysis then of the vast quantity of data you would get would be quite something. Without the right analysis the difference may be masked. You're much more into the field of novel research with video.
With audio we have much better tools and well established techniques available, and you are dealing with much less information.


----------



## jbrinegar

[email protected] said:


> Hi, I got a question.
> Can this configuration with LLDV will work?
> 
> Apple TV -> HDFury Vertex2 -> LRP 4242 -> JVC PJ
> 
> Normally HDR10 from Apple TV will be ouput as SDR 2020 in 4242 and what happens in case LLDV in the same loop?
> Do I have to output it as HDR 2020 instead of SDR 2020 to make LLDV output correctly?
> 
> Thanks.


I would imagine you’d want the LRP to do the DTM, making the vertex LLDV unnecessary?
I’d remove the vertex and enjoy the excellent DTM the LRP gives you


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> The biggest frustration for me is that (at least in the case of audio) while there are excellent Test & Measurement solutions available that can operate up to speaker level outputs and could certainly measure if there is a resultant change in the output at the end of the chain from a given system tweak, to date for HDMI source devices I've not seen anyone take an otherwise excellent system, swap such a tweaked source for an untweaked source, and offer up measurements showing the difference in the last analogue electronic product in the system (which is where they would have to manifest to have any chance of being audible). Instead we're usually concentrating on observed measurements on things that are far away from the last D-A product in the system (eg TMDS jitter on an HDMI output, internal noise on a power rail, conducted EMI measured via a LISN on a mains input etc.), and surmising these may result in audible benefit, and then "confirming" it with sighted testing. Not every change in a circuit that can yield improvements in such "local" matters will result in an actual improvement in the D-A product at the end of the chain, and many improvements may only address matters of vanity.
> 
> Once you get to the point of measuring a difference, there are then further questions of the audibility of things like jitter products, masking of harmonic distortion, etc, which mean even if you do measure a difference at the output of the chain it may not be audible (to some / many / all listeners). But I'm yet to see anyone even cross the first hurdle showing a benefit to the conversion product. It would be great if someone at least did that kind of test; and showed that the tweaked source did manifest in some somehow improved audio signal on the final output of the system; the discussion as to whether that improvement is audible is another matter, but at least there would be a technical thread to pull on.
> 
> Regrettably the Venn diagrams of "folk with access to high end audio / video gear" and "folk with the means / inclination to measure the output of such systems" rarely seem to publicly meet!
> 
> None of the above is to say that the difference doesn't exist, just that for the most part the evidence outside of anecdote isn't very strong, and it would be really nice to be able to point at something showing measured improvement at the end of the system chain.


I'm really sorry to "dumb this down", but are you asserting that, in the real world HT that we have created for ourselves, many/most listeners are unlikely to perceive any improvement to our audio experience (even with lossless codecs) because of the improved jitter/clocking enhancement of the RP?


----------



## Naiera

jbrinegar said:


> I would imagine you’d want the LRP to do the DTM, making the vertex LLDV unnecessary?
> I’d remove the vertex and enjoy the excellent DTM the LRP gives you


I was going to use a Vertex 2 as an HDMI switch when I first got an LRP, but the two units didn't seem to like each other much. I'd get random, somewhat frequent little dropouts.


----------



## bosler.bruce

bobof said:


> *I believe actually we do have better recording / measurement devices ........ * *available than the human eyes and ears, and probably can capture everything and more than the eye and ear can see / hear.*


I could not possibly disagree more so we can leave it at that

here's one take on it if interested What Resolution Is the Human Eye? [All You Need To Know]


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I'm really sorry to "dumb this down", but are you asserting that, in the real world HT that we have created for ourselves, many/most listeners are unlikely to perceive any improvement to our audio experience (even with lossless codecs) because of the improved jitter/clocking enhancement of the RP?


I'm not saying that, no, I'm just lamenting the lack of testing of claims, it was particularly aimed at the product that was being discussed, but I'm aware the LRP product also has improvements in those areas. There are several mechanisms mooted for benefits from the product, they all have technical legs. I have an LRP 5348 myself and enjoy using it greatly. I also enjoy the science behind things. I think that's what many of us are interested in on AVScience 


bosler.bruce said:


> I could not possibly disagree more so we can leave it at that
> 
> here's one take on it if interested What Resolution Is the Human Eye? [All You Need To Know]


It is interesting, and while reading it you should consider the caveats, assumptions, and their implications - the headline 576 megapixels isn't the full story... The human body is amazing, no doubt, but it is not the be-all and end all. But anyway, as you say, we probably couldn't disagree more, so let's leave it at that (or at least take it somewhere else).


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> I have an LRP 5348 myself and enjoy using it greatly.


I realize that I'm asking for a completely subjective response, but have you sensed any appreciable improvement of your *auditory* experience (for same content) when comparing your current 5348 with your previous 4xxx RP?


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> If it wasn't blacklisted by Bitdefender it would be easier to look at it... I have to read it on my phone.
> But that was the point I was making. These measurements are internal to the product, with no correlation back to actual improvements that may or may not be experienced further down the chain in the system as a result of these improvements.
> It is quite conceivable they do improve the conversion process in an AVR/P for instance, where you'd be able to measure it at the AVR/P output. But they may equally make no difference.
> To find out if there has been a system benefit you need to get your measurements closer to the thing that the human actually experiences (the only times I've "experienced" power supplies directly coupled to me has been... unpleasant... lol). I propose that measurement at the point where this becomes an analogue signal pushed into a transducer or similar is a good place for that.
> 
> ---
> 
> I find it odd the mish-mash of attitudes towards science in these kind of endeavours. On the one hand we're going to look at an improvement to a PSU internal to the product, measured with scientific equipment, and say that's definitely a benefit, but on the other hand we're not prepared to try and measure the benefits closer to the ultimate output of the system. The mind boggles...


Measuring an actual HDMI output is really hard thought. The test equipment required to measure an HDMI output in a really meaningful manner is more than $20K. So it is unlikely you'll find many that can do it at all. I've talked to cable companies that are not even using stuff like the Fox and the Hound to test their HDMI cables (as in they are doing NO testing at all!!).


----------



## Kris Deering

The other issue I could see people running into with testing the ATV is how do you generate patterns to test on the output? Because even if you use some kind of Plex thing you never know if that app is doing something to the video (as opposed to the output of the player itself). This is a frustration I have with the Strato players as well, there is no way to put patterns on it to test for issues with the output.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> I realize that I'm asking for a completely subjective response, but have you sensed any appreciable improvement of your *auditory* experience (for same content) when comparing your current 5348 with your previous 4xxx RP?


lol I'm not sure how you could have read into anything I wrote that there would be an opinion I could offer on subjective comparison between the two...  Even less so given there was a gap of a few weeks between me having a 4242 and a 5348, so no direct AB comparison could be made, and I'm in my room for only a few hours a week, much of it watching drama type productions. For me the nicest things about the 5348 are the practical ones, such as the more flexible IO (3 outputs and 5 independent input ICs with 10 inputs, in only 1U). My audio system isn't particularly high-end; room noise floor isn't great owing to small room with an AC unit and projector complete with e-shift whine in room. Processor is a Monoprice HTP1. System sounds really good with it in place, though system sounds IMHO poor without room correction; so I attribute the bulk of the audio performance in the room to the awesome Dirac room correction.



Kris Deering said:


> Measuring an actual HDMI output is really hard thought. The test equipment required to measure an HDMI output in a really meaningful manner is more than $20K. So it is unlikely you'll find many that can do it at all. I've talked to cable companies that are not even using stuff like the Fox and the Hound to test their HDMI cables (as in they are doing NO testing at all!!).


I wasn't suggesting measuring the HDMI output, in fact that's the opposite of what I suggested; as that has the same issues I mention of being too far removed from the analogue product we'll ultimately enjoy while consuming media. What do you do with the information that the HDMI TMDS jitter is 20ps better than something else? (number that's imagination).

I think if you're looking for audio improvements downstream of the LRP or ATVX, you are better off looking at the converted audio for clues as to changes that may represent improvements. More interesting would be, for instance, seeing a reduced skirt and improved noise floor on an averaged FFT with a 15kHz test tone (a typical stimulus used to evaluate the effect of jitter on digital audio conversion).


Kris Deering said:


> The other issue I could see people running into with testing the ATV is how do you generate patterns to test on the output? Because even if you use some kind of Plex thing you never know if that app is doing something to the video (as opposed to the output of the player itself). This is a frustration I have with the Strato players as well, there is no way to put patterns on it to test for issues with the output.


I think you are over-thinking. The question firstly is "is the ATV vs ATVX producing different output". Play the same content on the same player SW, whatever the player SW is doing will be done equally to both, so should result in identical output from the SW through the drivers and out to the HW. Which would leave any observed difference between the two being the result of the modifications to the ATVX.

Ultimately you're going to be contending with playing things through the player software and stacks of the AppleTV anyway, it's unavoidable, so they end up forming part of the test (eg where the ATVX was being pitted against an Oppo in their testing - it's actually ATVX + player SW vs Oppo).


----------



## OzHDHT

Kris Deering said:


> The other issue I could see people running into with testing the ATV is how do you generate patterns to test on the output? Because even if you use some kind of Plex thing you never know if that app is doing something to the video (as opposed to the output of the player itself). This is a frustration I have with the Strato players as well, there is no way to put patterns on it to test for issues with the output.


Kris would that also mean ATV test pattern generator apps such as TestCard ProHD 4K are in the same predicament?


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> The other issue I could see people running into with testing the ATV is how do you generate patterns to test on the output? Because even if you use some kind of Plex thing you never know if that app is doing something to the video (as opposed to the output of the player itself). This is a frustration I have with the Strato players as well, there is no way to put patterns on it to test for issues with the output.


@Kris Deering , as long as the stock Apple TV and the modded Apple TV are running the same software and apps, wouldn't it be OK if the apps are modifying the video? Presumably they'd be modifying it in the same way, but differences that result from the mods could still be measured maybe?


----------



## arsenalfc89

Quick question. Is it possible to control the amount of zoom is applied to auto aspect on a 16:9 screen?


----------



## Kris Deering

arsenalfc89 said:


> Quick question. Is it possible to control the amount of zoom is applied to auto aspect on a 16:9 screen?


Auto aspect doesn't really work if you have an 16x9 screen. Lumagen has a couple zoom modes for that, or you can configure per input aspect ratio outputs that can be tailored to different output aspect ratios.


----------



## bjorg

arsenalfc89 said:


> Quick question. Is it possible to control the amount of zoom is applied to auto aspect on a 16:9 screen?


Yes, I did something like that for my bedroom TV setup. I have it so that wider content is zoomed in a bit, reducing the size of the black bars at the top and bottom. It's a bit tedious, because you need to find content in each AR so that you can adjust the settings for it, but it works.


----------



## DigitalAV

bosler.bruce said:


> I didn't read the rest of your post because you started with a fundamentally flawed premise.


Yuck


----------



## arsenalfc89

bjorg said:


> Yes, I did something like that for my bedroom TV setup. I have it so that wider content is zoomed in a bit, reducing the size of the black bars at the top and bottom. It's a bit tedious, because you need to find content in each AR so that you can adjust the settings for it, but it works.


So you used configure per input aspect ratio outputs? If so what ratios did you settle at because when I go this route it doesn't zoom in 1:1. The sides or top are cropped independently.


----------



## arsenalfc89

Kris Deering said:


> Auto aspect doesn't really work if you have an 16x9 screen. Lumagen has a couple zoom modes for that, or you can configure per input aspect ratio outputs that can be tailored to different output aspect ratios.


Man it would be nice if this became a feature, like a toggle in the auto aspect menu that says zoom 15%, zoom 20%, zoom 25% etc.


----------



## jevansoh

My theater is under construction and my Control4 dealer temporarily has all sources going through the Lumagen and we're outputting to an old Vizio 720p TV until the projector/screen are installed.

When we use output 1 on the Lumagen, we get a purple screen. We've tried a different HDMI cable, as well, with the same results.

When we use output 2 on the Lumagen, we get a message that says "Not Support" on the screen.

When we use output 3 on the Lumagen, we get a blue screen.

When we use output 4 on the Lumagen, we get a black screen that says "No Signal."

I'm assuming it has something to do with the output resolution being set for our previous JVC RS540 projector, but since I can't see the Lumagen Menu, I can't change things.

Is there a button press sequence I can set to output at 720p and/or Auto resolution?

The scaling was previously set to 2.35:1 with NLS and other things and I don't know how that will affect the TV, either.

Right now I'd be happy with any picture, though, anything other than a purple screen.

Thanks in advance for any assistance and guidance you can offer.


----------



## jrp

jevansoh said:


> My theater is under construction and my Control4 dealer temporarily has all sources going through the Lumagen and we're outputting to an old Vizio 720p TV until the projector/screen are installed.
> 
> When we use output 1 on the Lumagen, we get a purple screen. We've tried a different HDMI cable, as well, with the same results.
> 
> When we use output 2 on the Lumagen, we get a message that says "Not Support" on the screen.
> 
> When we use output 3 on the Lumagen, we get a blue screen.
> 
> When we use output 4 on the Lumagen, we get a black screen that says "No Signal."
> 
> I'm assuming it has something to do with the output resolution being set for our previous JVC RS540 projector, but since I can't see the Lumagen Menu, I can't change things.
> 
> Is there a button press sequence I can set to output at 720p and/or Auto resolution?
> 
> The scaling was previously set to 2.35:1 with NLS and other things and I don't know how that will affect the TV, either.
> 
> Right now I'd be happy with any picture, though, anything other than a purple screen.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any assistance and guidance you can offer.


You do not mention if the output cards are 9 GHz or 18 GHz.

Output 1 defaults to audio only. You will see a blue/purple screen.

Output 2 should be active, but this is most likely a HDCP issue. Please contact me.

If the output card for output 3 and 4 is an 18 GHz card, then output 3 is audio only.

Output 4 defaults to video or video+audio.

Please email me at lumagen.com support email and we can discuss how to get a picture on your 720p TV.


----------



## OMARDRIS

Hi,
to facilitate the search for the COM port to which the Lumagen Radiance is connected during the update, a small C++ tool called "Peters RadiChecker" can be loaded from the cloud:

Peter`s RadiChecker

The small exe file (32 bit) can be copied to any directory and executed there.










If the small tool finds a Radiance, it displays some of its data in addition to the port and then immediately disconnects so as not to block the port. If no Radiance is found, an error message appears.
Of course there are more important things in this world and you should consider this more as fun. 
Peter


----------



## Geof

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> to facilitate the search for the COM port to which the Lumagen Radiance is connected during the update, a small C++ tool called "Peters RadiChecker" can be loaded from the cloud:
> 
> Peter`s RadiChecker
> 
> The small exe file (32 bit) can be copied to any directory and executed there.
> 
> View attachment 3347002
> 
> 
> If the small tool finds a Radiance, it displays some of its data in addition to the port and then immediately disconnects so as not to block the port. If no Radiance is found, an error message appears.
> Of course there are more important things in this world and you should consider this more as fun.
> Peter


Very Cool!!!
Thanks!!


----------



## bosler.bruce

OMARDRIS said:


> to facilitate the search for the COM port to which the Lumagen Radiance is connected during the update,


It is unbelievable to me how much effort you all are putting into this, how many posts have been made about it

plug your Lumagen into your computer
type *Device Manager* in the Windows search bar in the lower left of your screen and select it
select Ports(COM & LPT)
it will show you your COM port , that's it.. can we please move on ?


----------



## fatherom

bosler.bruce said:


> It is unbelievable to me how much effort you all are putting into this, how many posts have been made about it
> 
> plug your Lumagen into your computer
> type *Device Manager* in the Windows search bar in the lower left of your screen and select it
> select Ports(COM & LPT)
> it will show you your COM port , that's it.. can we please move on ?
> 
> View attachment 3347011


What's odd to me is how many times you've posted your frustration about this discussion. Clearly, some people want better tools to help them. Also, your example works for YOU. Other people have multiple devices connected to the COM/LPT ports, so your workflow won't work for them, since there will be multiple items listed where your red arrow is pointed.


----------



## bosler.bruce

fatherom said:


> Other people have multiple devices connected to the COM/LPT ports,


very few people have more than one USB serial device connected to a COM port, I'm going to venture close to zero so , and if they do they can just try them.. this really is the proverbial mountain out of a mole hill

Sincerely,
Forum Police Department


----------



## DigitalAV

bosler.bruce said:


> It is unbelievable to me how much effort you all are putting into this,


Says the nerd using bold, bullet points, and annotated screenshots


----------



## bosler.bruce

DigitalAV said:


> Says the nerd


Nerd? Really? *NERD !!!!*
How dare you !! On behalf of all my fellow dorks everywhere around the world, we deeply resent be associated with nerds.


----------



## appelz

bosler.bruce said:


> Nerd? Really? *NERD !!!!*
> How dare you !! On behalf of all my fellow dorks everywhere around the world, we deeply resent be associated with nerds.


I'm comfortable with both the nerd and dork communities. I even have a few geek friends.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I actually have to use a serial cable with a null modem db9 with my laptop to the 4242. I bought a USB to serial and it doesn't work. Probably the 2007 vintage Thinkpad doesn't have a drivers. Thankfully I have a dock with legacy ports. I also haver to run a slower rate. 😬

To the poster a few pages back, I am using a DIVA to spoof the DV block and sending the LLDV output to the 4242 for DTM. I have expiremented with different configurations and continue to love what the LLDV mapping is doing for the image quality. I did set the HDR generator block to max luminance to 4000 nits to ensure that the LRP always get a max luminance to work with for DTM from the player. I do think there is an advantage to sending LLDV to the LRP. YMV, but I am extremely happy with it here and it has been rock stable too. Zero issues with HDCP, etc.


----------



## Mike_WI

bosler.bruce said:


> It is unbelievable to me how much effort you all are putting into this, how many posts have been made about it
> 
> plug your Lumagen into your computer
> type *Device Manager* in the Windows search bar in the lower left of your screen and select it
> select Ports(COM & LPT)
> it will show you your COM port , that's it.. can we please move on ?
> 
> View attachment 3347011


What if you have multiple USB ports?


----------



## bosler.bruce

Mike_WI said:


> What if you have multiple USB ports?


I have many, including a keyboard, mouse, camera, printer, hard drives, etc.... but only one USB serial device that uses a COM port. You can see it in my post above that uses bold, bullet points, and annotated screenshots


----------



## Dave Harper

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I actually have to use a serial cable with a null modem db9 with my laptop to the 4242. I bought a USB to serial and it doesn't work. Probably the 2007 vintage Thinkpad doesn't have a drivers. Thankfully I have a dock with legacy ports. I also haver to run a slower rate.
> 
> To the poster a few pages back, I am using a DIVA to spoof the DV block and sending the LLDV output to the 4242 for DTM. I have expiremented with different configurations and continue to love what the LLDV mapping is doing for the image quality. I did set the HDR generator block to max luminance to 4000 nits to ensure that the LRP always get a max luminance to work with for DTM from the player. I do think there is an advantage to sending LLDV to the LRP. YMV, but I am extremely happy with it here and it has been rock stable too. Zero issues with HDCP, etc.


Have you tried sending the raw LLDV signal without any HDR metadata embedded? I’ve done this with MadVR with great success and curious how and if it helps with a Lumagen as well.


----------



## bjorg

OMARDRIS said:


> Hi,
> to facilitate the search for the COM port to which the Lumagen Radiance is connected during the update, a small C++ tool called "Peters RadiChecker" can be loaded from the cloud:
> 
> Peter`s RadiChecker
> 
> The small exe file (32 bit) can be copied to any directory and executed there.
> 
> View attachment 3347007
> 
> 
> If the small tool finds a Radiance, it displays some of its data in addition to the port and then immediately disconnects so as not to block the port. If no Radiance is found, an error message appears.
> Of course there are more important things in this world and you should consider this more as fun.
> Peter


That's very nice! Any chance Peter can share the code with Lumagen so it can be built into the app?


----------



## bjorg

bosler.bruce said:


> It is unbelievable to me how much effort you all are putting into this, how many posts have been made about it
> 
> plug your Lumagen into your computer
> type *Device Manager* in the Windows search bar in the lower left of your screen and select it
> select Ports(COM & LPT)
> it will show you your COM port , that's it.. can we please move on ?
> 
> View attachment 3347011


You could simply ignore the few posts about it. I had to ignore 4 pages of ATVX conversations that had no reason to exist here and were utterly worthless to me. Removing friction during the update process is a nice to have, but we all have to deal with it all the time, so why not improve upon it, if possible?


----------



## Craig Peer

I use the same USB port to download new firmware to the Lumagen every time. It's always " COM 3 ". Not rocket science!


----------



## Dave Harper

Craig Peer said:


> I use the same USB port to download new firmware to the Lumagen every time. It's always " COM 3 ". *Not rocket science!*


But it is apparently AV*S* _”*S*cience”_!


----------



## bjorg

Craig Peer said:


> I use the same USB port to download new firmware to the Lumagen every time. It's always " COM 3 ". Not rocket science!


Maybe because you only have one Lumagen? What's about all the hate to make life a bit easier?


----------



## Javs

Mine is always COM3 also.


----------



## fatherom

Craig Peer said:


> I use the same USB port to download new firmware to the Lumagen every time. It's always " COM 3 ". Not rocket science!


Same for me (always com 3).

You're making a presumption, though, that works for you easily must be the case for everyone else. People may be using different laptops at different times. System configs are different. Hardware can change...etc...there's no reason to be against others' desire to make the process more streamlined.

If you think about it, what OTHER usb device exists out there where you have to worry about COM port stuff like this? The extra step just adds potential confusion and failure points.


----------



## DVD MAN

It works every time for me.
Com 5 for me since day one.
Com 3 for Audyssey Pro


----------



## appelz

fatherom said:


> Same for me (always com 3).
> 
> You're making a presumption, though, that works for you easily must be the case for everyone else. People may be using different laptops at different times. System configs are different. Hardware can change...etc...there's no reason to be against others' desire to make the process more streamlined.
> 
> If you think about it, what OTHER usb device exists out there where you have to worry about COM port stuff like this? The extra step just adds potential confusion and failure points.


My COM ports are always different, but I'm connecting to video processors, multiple meters, microphones possibly, and USB audio interfaces at different times. Some software identifies the device for me, and some doesn't.


----------



## desray2k

COM ports do change depending on the number of IT peripherals with COM access but in today's context, it is rare in usage. I recalled for the first time it is COM5 for me and then COM 3 for the last few rounds of updates. If my memory serves me right, one can also change the COM ports for the different devices connected at default by the Windows OS. One just need to go to Device Manager and check the Communication Port settings and straight away, we will know the assigned COM port. Not sure what's the fuss is all about. It is quite easy to grasp.


----------



## DigitalAV

Alright I'm with bosler bruce now enough about the COM ports


----------



## carpantata

The following shortcut commands temporarily deactivate/reactivate the automatic aspect detection: *Alt + Clr* temporarily deactivates Auto Aspect and *Alt + NLS* reactivates it again. I have the Radiance Pro remote control (not PiP).
Is this still in effect?


----------



## [email protected]

Hi Folks,

I have a question about 4242 1D/3D LUT calibration.
I saw this part in HDR calibration tips from the 'unofficial Lumagen guide by Giomania' .


> Set CMS0 _Colorspace _= SDR709
> In the calibration software, select Rec. 2020 primaries (even if _Colorspace _set to SDR709), Gamma = 2.4 (not Bt.1886). Select Radiance™ Pro 21-point Grayscale mode
> Calibrate CMS0 1D and 3D LUT as “SDR Rec. 2020”


So my curiosity is why we set CMS0 colorpsace as sdr709 when we do SDR BT2020 calibration. Can anyone enligthen me? Thanks!


----------



## desray2k

[email protected] said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a question about 4242 1D/3D LUT calibration.
> I saw this part in HDR calibration tips from the 'unofficial Lumagen guide by Giomania' .
> 
> So my curiosity is why we set CMS0 colorpsace as sdr709 when we do SDR BT2020 calibration. Can anyone enligthen me? Thanks!


Are you sure the steps is for HDR and not SDR?


----------



## SJHT

DigitalAV said:


> Alright I'm with bosler bruce now enough about the COM ports


When is the saturation improvement firmware planned to COMe?


----------



## [email protected]

desray2k said:


> Are you sure the steps is for HDR and not SDR?


It's HDR calibration. That's why I'm curious about the colorspace.


----------



## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> Set CMS0 _Colorspace _= SDR709
> In the calibration software, select Rec. 2020 primaries (even if _Colorspace _set to SDR709), Gamma = 2.4 (not Bt.1886). Select Radiance™ Pro 21-point Grayscale mode
> Calibrate CMS0 1D and 3D LUT as “SDR Rec. 2020”


Hi @giomania, can you confirm about this if we need to choose CMS0 Colorspace as SDR709 in HDR calibration?


----------



## Kris Deering

You can leave it in 709. I use Auto, but it defaults to 709. As long as the display is in its 2020 color mode and the calibration software is targeting 2020, the patterns will be fine (RGB triplets). When the calibration is done you select the output colorspace to SDR2020. I typically do the HDR calibration first in CMS0, then when I'm done with it I copy it to CMS1 and change the output colorspace to SDR2020 and setup the HDR parameters. I then do the calibration again in CMS0 (reset it in the software or in the Lumagen first) and leave it at 709 for the SDR calibration (unless you plan on using 2020 color in the display for SDR as well, then you need to change the output to SDR2020 BEFORE you start the SDR calibration for 709 sources). 

Clear as mud right?


----------



## [email protected]

Kris Deering said:


> You can leave it in 709. I use Auto, but it defaults to 709. As long as the display is in its 2020 color mode and the calibration software is targeting 2020, the patterns will be fine (RGB triplets). When the calibration is done you select the output colorspace to SDR2020. I typically do the HDR calibration first in CMS0, then when I'm done with it I copy it to CMS1 and change the output colorspace to SDR2020 and setup the HDR parameters. I then do the calibration again in CMS0 (reset it in the software or in the Lumagen first) and leave it at 709 for the SDR calibration (unless you plan on using 2020 color in the display for SDR as well, then you need to change the output to SDR2020 BEFORE you start the SDR calibration for 709 sources).
> 
> Clear as mud right?


Thank you so much Mr. Deering!
This Colorpsace = SDR709 in RP can be applied when using external TPG like Six-G? So Rec709 patterns from Six-G, SDR 2020 Color gamut from calibration software would do SDR2020 when the PJ is in 2020 color mode?


----------



## giomania

Kris Deering said:


> You can leave it in 709. I use Auto, but it defaults to 709. As long as the display is in its 2020 color mode and the calibration software is targeting 2020, the patterns will be fine (RGB triplets). When the calibration is done you select the output colorspace to SDR2020. I typically do the HDR calibration first in CMS0, then when I'm done with it I copy it to CMS1 and change the output colorspace to SDR2020 and setup the HDR parameters. I then do the calibration again in CMS0 (reset it in the software or in the Lumagen first) and leave it at 709 for the SDR calibration (unless you plan on using 2020 color in the display for SDR as well, then you need to change the output to SDR2020 BEFORE you start the SDR calibration for 709 sources).
> 
> Clear as mud right?


I never really fully understood the process so thanks for clearing it up, Kris!


----------



## DVD MAN

carpantata said:


> The following shortcut commands temporarily deactivate/reactivate the automatic aspect detection: *Alt + Clr* temporarily deactivates Auto Aspect and *Alt + NLS* reactivates it again.
> Is this still in effect?





carpantata said:


> The following shortcut commands temporarily deactivate/reactivate the automatic aspect detection: *Alt + Clr* temporarily deactivates Auto Aspect and *Alt + NLS* reactivates it again.
> Is this still in effect?


 I have a question there are two buttons on the latest remote to Disable or Enable Auto Aspect. Is there anyone who has tried them? They don't seem to be working on my unit.


----------



## Kris Deering

[email protected] said:


> Thank you so much Mr. Deering!
> This Colorpsace = SDR709 in RP can be applied when using external TPG like Six-G? So Rec709 patterns from Six-G, SDR 2020 Color gamut from calibration software would do SDR2020 when the PJ is in 2020 color mode?


The CMS doesn't care what the color is unless you are having it change the color. The pattern generator isn't outputting a certain color space, it is just outputting RGB triplets for whatever value you are trying to do.


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> I have a question there are two buttons on the latest remote to Disable or Enable Auto Aspect. Is there anyone who has tried them? They don't seem to be working on my unit.


I use them all the time for setup at clients and to show the feature and they work fine every time.


----------



## jrp

DVD MAN said:


> I have a question there are two buttons on the latest remote to Disable or Enable Auto Aspect. Is there anyone who has tried them? They don't seem to be working on my unit.


If not already on the latest, please update to the latest (091922 as I write this), and test again. I believe there were a couple releases they did not work, but I believe they work in the latest. If not let us know.

NOTE: They only have an effect if you have enabled Auto-Aspect in the MENU.Input.Options.Aspect Setup.Auto Aspect menu.


----------



## MOberhardt

desray2k said:


> COM ports do change depending on the number of IT peripherals with COM access but in today's context, it is rare in usage. I recalled for the first time it is COM5 for me and then COM 3 for the last few rounds of updates. If my memory serves me right, one can also change the COM ports for the different devices connected at default by the Windows OS. One just need to go to Device Manager and check the Communication Port settings and straight away, we will know the assigned COM port. Not sure what's the fuss is all about. It is quite easy to grasp.


Yeah, as a software developer dealing with USB serial bridges in production, they are a bane, particularly those Prolific devices and windows drivers. We ended up moving the serial Ethernet bridge devices like a MOXA to stabilize setups. Moving comports from USB bridges was a constant production hassle. Not to mention, serial IO is just so 70s. It is over 50 year old tech. And utterly flawed from a transmission perspective. To have a USB device to emulate it is just devolutionary...


----------



## DVD MAN

Kris Deering said:


> I use them all the time for setup at clients and to show the feature and they work fine every time.





Kris Deering said:


> I use them all the time for setup at clients and to show the feature and they work fine every time.


Thanks Kris it was a user error. I had to turn on Sticky Aspect Override. Its working as advertised...
Correct me if I am wrong. I am using the Lumagen with my JVC NX9 and a Stewart 2.40 Screen. I can now watch Top Gun Maverick on my Kalidecape by disabling Auto Aspect at a push of a button and the Imax scenes will be cropped @2:40.?


----------



## DVD MAN

jrp said:


> If not already on the latest, please update to the latest (091922 as I write this), and test again. I believe there were a couple releases they did not work, but I believe they work in the latest. If not let us know.
> 
> NOTE: They only have an effect if you have enabled Auto-Aspect in the MENU.Input.Options.Aspect Setup.Auto Aspect menu.


Thanks Jim. I got it. It was a user error. I had to turn on Sticky Aspect Override. Its working as advertised.


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> Thanks Kris it was a user error. I had to turn on Sticky Aspect Override. Its working as advertised...
> Correct me if I am wrong. I am using the Lumagen with my JVC NX9 and a Stewart 2.40 Screen. I can now watch Top Gun Maverick on my Kalidecape by disabling Auto Aspect at a push of a button and the Imax scenes will be cropped @2:40.?


Correct


----------



## Erod

bosler.bruce said:


> It is unbelievable to me how much effort you all are putting into this, how many posts have been made about it
> 
> plug your Lumagen into your computer
> type *Device Manager* in the Windows search bar in the lower left of your screen and select it
> select Ports(COM & LPT)
> it will show you your COM port , that's it.. can we please move on ?
> 
> View attachment 3347011


That's the best way, but not all computers show this. My surface Pro did not. Not sure why. 

I had to figure it out by just trying each one.


----------



## alv

How's the DTM improvement code coming along?


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I don't think they have started that yet. There was still work to do to complete the production release first.


----------



## GeorgeHolland

Erod said:


> That's the best way, but not all computers show this. My surface Pro did not. Not sure why.
> 
> I had to figure it out by just trying each one.



Windows Update has removed the COM/LPT views from Device Manager at times for me. It is quick and simple to restore it. Just open Device Manager, click on Action, just to the right of File, (highlight a viewable category or "Action" won't list an option), select Add Hardware, next select Install hardware that I manually add, select Ports (COM/LPT), select next. Something like that, it has been awhile.


----------



## desray2k

alv said:


> How's the DTM improvement code coming along?





Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I don't think they have started that yet. There was still work to do to complete the production release first.


Hopefully, by end of the year, we can see the DTM improvement come to fruition.


----------



## alv

I thought a few weeks ago, Jim was hoping (not promising) a month. He had already done the math.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> Hopefully, by end of the year, we can see the DTM improvement come to fruition.


Patrick actually took a vacation. That set us back.

However, when he returned I asked him to prioritize fast aspect ratio changes. Fast auto aspect at the "50000 foot level" is removing all the special code we now have that deals with analog video noise. More complicated than that, but the base algorithm is the same.

We hope to have fast auto aspect, and the new desaturation algorithm, in a posted release by the end of the year.


----------



## jrp

To the Radiance Pro owner with the 720p display and no video:

I looked back but did not see your post to quote.

I wanted to let you know I have received two emails from you. I responded to both. Since you did not then respond to my emails I assume you did not get them. You can email again and include your phone number this time. Also, if you have an alternate email, or can add lumagen.com to your whitelist, that might help us get in touch.

==== 

As a general comment, if you email us at the lumagen.com support email, please do include your name and phone number, and if you have one an alternate email address in case our responses get blocked by your SPAM filter on the first one.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

jrp said:


> Patrick actually took a vacation. That set us back.
> 
> However, when he returned I asked him to prioritize fast aspect ratio changes. Fast auto aspect at the "50000 foot level" is removing all the special code we now have that deals with analog video noise. More complicated than that, but the base algorithm is the same.
> 
> We hope to have fast auto aspect, and the new desaturation algorithm, in a posted release by the end of the year.


Wow. People are going to be very happy me thinks after all the aspect ratio discussions… impressive you guys are listening even tho there is such disagreement about it. That’s service.


----------



## ajbriones

NinjaTypeR said:


> Wow. People are going to be very happy me thinks after all the aspect ratio discussions… impressive you guys are listening even tho there is such disagreement about it. That’s service.


Even though I won’t be using active fast aspect ratio switching during a film, I am excited for this feature because it will mean a better theatrical experience when switching from the Kaleidescape, Plex or ATV menu to whatever movie I put on.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I wonder if “fast” refers to instant? Or just quicker than before. I guess it’s hard to tell until it’s implemented.

not that I use it. Would be nice to have it.


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I wonder if “fast” refers to instant? Or just quicker than before. I guess it’s hard to tell until it’s implemented.
> 
> not that I use it. Would be nice to have it.


We are still working on exactly what we will do. Since this should not be used to make 16:9 sections of Top Gun smaller on an anamorphic screen "instant" is not a requirement.

That said, we may well have an instant setting, and then a setting that checks a number of frames before making a change. While I call making 16:9 sections of Top gun, et. al., smaller on an anamorphic screen, or worse using NLS to fill the anamorphic screen with the 16:9 sections, double-dumb, we do see some people still insist on what I consider an abomination of the director's intent. While I continue to try to educate dealers and customers on this, like NLS - another feature I do not like to use, especially for non "talking head" content - if our customers want it, we will work to support instant auto-aspect.

Patrick is currently working to "unwind" all the special analog video noise compensation code to leave only what is needed for digital source auto-aspect. This heavily involves the FPGA code, and so may take a while.


----------



## edthomp

jrp said:


> We are still working on exactly what we will do. Since this should not be used to make 16:9 sections of Top Gun smaller on an anamorphic screen "instant" is not a requirement.
> 
> That said, we may well have an instant setting, and then a setting that checks a number of frames before making a change. While I call making 16:9 sections of Top gun, et. al., smaller on an anamorphic screen, or worse using NLS to fill the anamorphic screen with the 16:9 sections, double-dumb, we do see some people still insist on what I consider an abomination of the director's intent. While I continue to try to educate dealers and customers on this, like NLS - another feature I do not like to use, especially for non "talking head" content - if our customers want it, we will work to support instant auto-aspect.
> 
> Patrick is currently working to "unwind" all the special analog video noise compensation code to leave only what is needed for digital source auto-aspect. This heavily involves the FPGA code, and so may take a while.


Count me as odd man out. By a factor of 1,000 to 1, I would value DTM improvements over auto aspect changes. Personally, I don't use auto aspect at all. If the director wants to change the aspect as part of the story, then that's what I want to see. I also want to see tone mapping produce a picture closer to intent too.

I do appreciate there are competitive pressures at play and others who share different viewpoints than mine, including others with far more elaborate setups than mine. Just asking that we don't lose sight of DTM improvements which are also important.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

The good news is that if you are patient, you will get both...


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> We are still working on exactly what we will do. Since this should not be used to make 16:9 sections of Top Gun smaller on an anamorphic screen "instant" is not a requirement.
> 
> That said, we may well have an instant setting, and then a setting that checks a number of frames before making a change. While I call making 16:9 sections of Top gun, et. al., smaller on an anamorphic screen, or worse using NLS to fill the anamorphic screen with the 16:9 sections, double-dumb, we do see some people still insist on what I consider an abomination of the director's intent. While I continue to try to educate dealers and customers on this, like NLS - another feature I do not like to use, especially for non "talking head" content - if our customers want it, we will work to support instant auto-aspect.


Reading this comment makes me so happy that I chose LRP over the other processor I was playing with.

I just spent a few nights on a deep dive with exploring IMAX content on my scope screen, and have come to the following conclusion:

I wish Kaleidescape would get mezzanine files for different aspect ratios, so you can download the specific film that matches your screen's aspect ratio. It would be a huge marketing win/opportunity for them and we can hopefully see NLS take a back seat, though I do recognize it has its uses.

I know that with Avatar there were over 100 different theatrical versions released, specifically tuned for different theaters depending on aspect ratio, stereo technology, light output, etc (we literally spared no expense). The version on Kaleidescape appears to be the 1.78 release. For reference, the movie was actually composed in 2.40 scope (with a soft matte to show the IMAX frame behind it).

Personally, I actually prefer Avatar in scope, but simply zooming/cropping the 1.78 release does not mean you are looking at the 2.40 version of Avatar. Jim actually slightly re-composed every shot for the IMAX/1.78/home release, so there are slight differences in those versions. For the K version of Avatar, zooming/cropping to 2.40 mostly works, but ideally, I would also shift the frame down vertically by 1-2 fields (3-5%). It still doesn't get you to the Scope version of Avatar, but it's a little better.

Films like Top Gun: Maverick, just zoom/crop to 2.40 and you're good (personally, I preferred watching it in 1.78 with my motorized screen masking on).


----------



## ajbriones

edthomp said:


> Count me as odd man out. By a factor of 1,000 to 1, I would value DTM improvements over auto aspect changes. Personally, I don't use auto aspect at all. If the director wants to change the aspect as part of the story, then that's what I want to see. I also want to see tone mapping produce a picture closer to intent too.
> 
> I do appreciate there are competitive pressures at play and others who share different viewpoints than mine, including others with far more elaborate setups than mine. Just asking that we don't lose sight of DTM improvements which are also important.


You're not the odd man out here. It sounds like they are working on this as well, and that we might get some goodies in time for Christmas.


----------



## jrp

ajbriones said:


> You're not the odd man out here. It sounds like they are working on this as well, and that we might get some goodies in time for Christmas.


Yes, I am hoping to have both fast auto aspect and the new desaturation algorithm by Christmas.

However, note that I am an optimist, at least as far as schedules are concerned. We are going to get these out as soon as we can.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Can we get a scope 4k release of avatar then? Can someone please ask Cameron? I really wish that the consortium had provided a 3d spec for UHD. Sigh...


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> Yes, I am hoping to have both fast auto aspect and the new desaturation algorithm by Christmas.
> 
> However, note that I am an optimist, at least as far as schedules are concerned. We are going to get these out as soon as we can.


It should take exactly as long as it needs to.


----------



## ajbriones

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Can we get a scope 4k release of avatar then? Can someone please ask Cameron? I really wish that the consortium had provided a 3d spec for UHD. Sigh...


It's my hope that Kaleidescape can get the scope mezzanine files and start releasing films available in different aspect ratios. That would be the best bet, I'd assume, since unfortunately the general public is moving away from physical media.


----------



## Kris Deering

Kscape has probably the least amount of shifting aspect ratio content. Way less than disc and streaming services.


----------



## Michael-S

Aspect ratio detection is not just a movie consideration; often, when streaming TV (in lieu of a cable box), and with streaming from Amazon (or others), aspect ratios change constantly. Including commercials. When it changes, I want to see it. Given that movies are only 15% of my viewing time, aspect ratio changes are to be expected, and best handled quickly.

It helps me enjoy my projector and scope screen more, not less. That's good on Lumagen.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Oh well. If nothing else, it will be good for The Expanse Season 4. I think you know what I’m talking about. There’s no director’s intent there - the framing is incorrect for cropping and the scope sections look bizarre if you watch it in 16:9 on a scope screen. Applying instant switch and NLS to the 16:9 sections would really be the only solution to “emulate” a 16:9 TV and not have it be distracting.


----------



## Kris Deering

NinjaTypeR said:


> Oh well. If nothing else, it will be good for The Expanse Season 4. I think you know what I’m talking about. There’s no director’s intent there - the framing is incorrect for cropping and the scope sections look bizarre if you watch it in 16:9 on a scope screen. Applying instant switch and NLS to the 16:9 sections would really be the only solution to “emulate” a 16:9 TV and not have it be distracting.


If the goal is to emulate a 16x9 TV and have it shown the way they thought it would be (with a 16x9 TV), just lock the aspect ratio to 16x9. Then the image will act exactly the way they thought it would when they encoded it because it would be a 16x9 image changing height only. NONE of this content is designed with a scope screen in mind, zip, zero, nada. So if you want to watch it the way they "intended" it to be seen and maintain the aspect changes the way they intended them to be seen, just lock the Lumagen to 16x9 when you watch it. EVERY other way is going to have some type of compromise whether it is framing, NLS or changing image width (which was NEVER intended in ANY presentation format including IMAX). I lock to scope and just put up with the framing, which has never bothered me yet with anything that I've watched except Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. That one is one of the few that I would recommend locking to 16x9 when you watch it as it was clearly designed around that specific aspect ratio.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> If the goal is to emulate a 16x9 TV and have it shown the way they thought it would be (with a 16x9 TV), just lock the aspect ratio to 16x9. Then the image will act exactly the way they thought it would when they encoded it because it would be a 16x9 image changing height only. NONE of this content is designed with a scope screen in mind, zip, zero, nada. So if you want to watch it the way they "intended" it to be seen and maintain the aspect changes the way they intended them to be seen, just lock the Lumagen to 16x9 when you watch it. EVERY other way is going to have some type of compromise whether it is framing, NLS or changing image width (which was NEVER intended in ANY presentation format including IMAX). I lock to scope and just put up with the framing, which has never bothered me yet with anything that I've watched except Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. That one is one of the few that I would recommend locking to 16x9 when you watch it as it was clearly designed around that specific aspect ratio.


Expanse Season 4 is weird in that it's the only 16x9 show where the "epic" scenes are shot in scope, and thus have black bars. It's like the opposite of most AR switching material, like IMAX films, where the image gets taller in the epic scenes. In expanse season 4, the epic scenes are wider.


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> Expanse Season 4 is weird in that it's the only 16x9 show where the "epic" scenes are shot in scope, and thus have black bars. It's like the opposite of most AR switching material, like IMAX films, where the image gets taller in the epic scenes. In expanse season 4, the epic scenes are wider.


Yeah, I've watched a bit and seen that. Still designed the same way though, they think you are watching on a flat panel and the action scenes are more "dramatic" in scope. Or they like that framing better.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> Yeah, I've watched a bit and seen that. Still designed the same way though, they think you are watching on a flat panel and the action scenes are more "dramatic" in scope. Or they like that framing better.


For those with scope screens and a lumagen, would it be possible to watch this show "as dreamed/designed"...have the 16x9 scenes use the center of the scope screen, and have the scope scenes fill the scope screen? It could, if possible, be one of the few aspect switching shows where scope screen users could realize the full benefit of aspect detection (i.e. not having to fuss with AR switching content as an annoyance, but a benefit  .


----------



## Kris Deering

fatherom said:


> For those with scope screens and a lumagen, would it be possible to watch this show "as dreamed/designed"...have the 16x9 scenes use the center of the scope screen, and have the scope scenes fill the scope screen? It could, if possible, be one of the few aspect switching shows where scope screen users could realize the full benefit of aspect detection (i.e. not having to fuss with AR switching content as an annoyance, but a benefit  .


Instant aspect would do this, but again, the show was not designed with scope screens in mind, it was designed with 16x9 screens in mind.


----------



## jdsutt1

Anyone here have recommended settings for a Panasonic ub820 running into the Lumagen? I’m noticing a fair amount of noise in the image on 4K blu rays and want to make sure I have the correct settings on the Panasonic to let the Lumagen handle the DTM, etc.

Here’s the current setup in case it impacts anything: ub820->Lumagen->Epson 6050

thanks!


----------



## Mark_H

fatherom said:


> Expanse Season 4 is weird in that it's the only 16x9 show where the "epic" scenes are shot in scope, and thus have black bars. It's like the opposite of most AR switching material, like IMAX films, where the image gets taller in the epic scenes. In expanse season 4, the epic scenes are wider.


Grand Tour (Amazon) uses the same approach. The studio/chit-chat stuff is shot "small" in 16:9, but when they transition to landscapes or track racing, the image switches to scope for greater expanse (see what I did there?!). Certain to be other TV titles that use the same trick.


----------



## Mark_H

fatherom said:


> For those with scope screens and a lumagen, would it be possible to watch this show "as dreamed/designed"...have the 16x9 scenes use the center of the scope screen, and have the scope scenes fill the scope screen? It could, if possible, be one of the few aspect switching shows where scope screen users could realize the full benefit of aspect detection (i.e. not having to fuss with AR switching content as an annoyance, but a benefit  .


This is precisely how I view it. And it works very well indeed. We can argue about Director's Intent, but at this point it's become very tedious.


----------



## Clark Burk

As they say it’s your theater you can view it as you wish. I can say that colorized movies, zooming to fill the screen, and other things viewers do are not my preference but it’s their choice to watch how they want with their system.
I do think it’s also no harm to inform these people that there are other options and why some people prefer them. Then they can make their own decisions. 
Unfortunately there are certain options that are a compromise no matter what and then you make the choice based on your preferences. This is one of those cases. 
It’s good to see that Lumagen is giving us the choice to choose.


----------



## 187crew003

Bottom line is true directors intent was for the film to be viewed in a large format auditorium. So no one with a HT is watching with “directors intent”


----------



## thebland

*RE: Locking in an aspect ratio (to 2.40) for TG Maverick*

I tried to lock the aspect for Top Gun Maverick but hitting the 1.78 button at the movies beginning. Didn’t work as in subsequent scenes the masks would move to 1.78 and not hold at 2.40. Is there a setting in the Lumagen to ‘lock in’ an aspect ratio after the move commences or what did I miss? I am on a 6 month old firmware.

Thanks!


----------



## bobof

thebland said:


> *RE: Locking in an aspect ratio (to 2.40) for TG Maverick*
> 
> I tried to lock the aspect for Top Gun Maverick but hitting the 1.78 button at the movies beginning. Didn’t work as in subsequent scenes the masks would move to 1.78 and not hold at 2.40. Is there a setting in the Lumagen to ‘lock in’ an aspect ratio after the move commences or what did I miss? I am on a 6 month old firmware.
> 
> Thanks!


Did you have sticky aspect enabled?


----------



## ajbriones

187crew003 said:


> Bottom line is true directors intent was for the film to be viewed in a large format auditorium. So no one with a HT is watching with “directors intent”


You can watch whatever you want, however you want at home; it’s your theater and your home. What I had a problem with was seeing coverage of the Trinnov/McIntosh/MadVR theater at Cedia 2022 where they were displaying content with NLS and touting It like it’s reference quality. It’s like taking a portrait photo and stretching it to fit a landscape picture frame. You’re a consumer, do what you want. Those guys are professionals; they should know better.


----------



## Erod

Maybe I don't understand the issue fully, but why would someone with a scope screen want to see the "IMAX" scenes smaller? Aren't those supposed to be the BIG scenes in these changing aspect ratio movies. I wouldn't want those scenes scrunched into a smaller image with smaller faces and smaller everything with side black bars. I would just let everything be widescreen.

One of many reasons I don't use a scope screen and why I'm glad I have the ceiling height to stick with 16:9 and get the width I need.


----------



## ajbriones

thebland said:


> *RE: Locking in an aspect ratio (to 2.40) for TG Maverick*
> 
> I tried to lock the aspect for Top Gun Maverick but hitting the 1.78 button at the movies beginning. Didn’t work as in subsequent scenes the masks would move to 1.78 and not hold at 2.40. Is there a setting in the Lumagen to ‘lock in’ an aspect ratio after the move commences or what did I miss? I am on a 6 month old firmware.
> 
> Thanks!


What works for me is setting it how I like and pressing the Auto Aspect Disable button on the remote.


----------



## ajbriones

Erod said:


> Maybe I don't understand the issue fully, but why would someone with a scope screen want to see the "IMAX" scenes smaller? Aren't those supposed to be the BIG scenes in these changing aspect ratio movies. I wouldn't want those scenes scrunched into a smaller image with smaller faces and smaller everything with side black bars. I would just let everything be widescreen.
> 
> One of many reasons I don't use a scope screen and why I'm glad I have the ceiling height to stick with 16:9 and get the width I need.


I went with a scope screen for the following reasons:
1. My room is wide, so a scope screen would be bigger in this space. 2. I watch a lot of of older films and also work in film, so most of my content is 1.85-2.40. 3. When switching from watching the news or football to watching a movie, I would prefer for the image to go larger instead of the opposite. This effect is visceral, especially since I have motorized masking.

That said, I did find an example of where it might be good to have instant aspect changes: sports documentaries.I watched one on Netflix about the USA Basketball Redeem Team, and they intercut between archival game footage in SD (upscaled) to scope interview shots of the players today that were beautifully lit and photographed.

I wouldn’t do it for a movie, though, but people have their preferences.


----------



## Erod

ajbriones said:


> I went with a scope screen for the following reasons:
> 1. My room is wide, so a scope screen would be bigger in this space. 2. I watch a lot of of older films and also work in film, so most of my content is 1.85-2.40. 3. When switching from watching the news or football to watching a movie, I would prefer for the image to go larger instead of the opposite. This effect is visceral, especially since I have motorized masking.
> 
> That said, I did find an example of where it might be good to have instant aspect changes: sports documentaries.I watched one on Netflix about the USA Basketball Redeem Team, and they intercut between archival game footage in SD (upscaled) to scope interview shots of the players today that were beautifully lit and photographed.
> 
> I wouldn’t do it for a movie, though, but people have their preferences.


Your primary reason is the only reason I'd consider it. Image size given the room. I have 12-foot ceilings, so height is no issue, and I can get to my desired 48-degree viewing angle without going scope. I like the extra screen real estate for sports, occasional videogames, and movie/series content that is 2:1, etc. 

I just wouldn't want my 2.35 image to shrink in order to play an IMAX scene on a scope screen. It should be the opposite. I'd rather just keep everything 2.35 in that case, so that instant capability would hold no value to me with a Lumagen or MadVR.


----------



## ajbriones

Erod said:


> Your primary reason is the only reason I'd consider it. Image size given the room. I have 12-foot ceilings, so height is no issue, and I can get to my desired 48-degree viewing angle without going scope. I like the extra screen real estate for sports, occasional videogames, and movie/series content that is 2:1, etc.
> 
> I just wouldn't want my 2.35 image to shrink in order to play an IMAX scene on a scope screen. It should be the opposite. I'd rather just keep everything 2.35 in that case, so that instant capability would hold no value to me with a Lumagen or MadVR.


4-way masking is the way, and the discipline to view 1.78 content in the smaller CIH aspect, expanding to IMAX only for IMAX content. I’m toying with the idea of some day getting 2 separate strips of Seymour XD material to create IMAX expansion panels that would connect to the magnets on my screen frame, haha.


----------



## asherman8

At the risk of “embarrassing” myself and my preferences for watching content, I love utilizing NLS for my 2.35:1 screen. I understand and agree with all regarding a Director’s intent with a particular movie.

That being said, I’d say my movie watching is now about 20% of my total viewing. The rest is streaming series and some sporting events. 
For Hulu, Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc. series, I believe we’re giving too much credence for the directors involved in some of these addictive yet fairly pedestrian content.

Adding the LRP to my system has made the picture quality of EVERYTHING I watch night/day difference positively! NLS allows me to always output 4096 X 2160 to my scope screen without ever knowing or caring whether the movie/series was supposed to be in 2.0:1, 2,2:1, 1.85:1 so on and so forth. 

Again, I appreciate and understand a lot of LRP users in their preferences for accuracy. I just happen to find NLS without enough fault to bother me.

Great work Jim, Patrick, and professionals like Kris Deering, etc., I now use my theater way way more than I ever did before my LRP. Isn’t that one of the most important measuring/reference points…

I/we appreciate consumer support like I’ve never seen in any other aspect of home AV!!!


----------



## ajbriones

asherman8 said:


> At the risk of “embarrassing” myself and my preferences for watching content, I love utilizing NLS for my 2.35:1 screen. I understand and agree with all regarding a Director’s intent with a particular movie.


There's no embarrassment meant here, and I apologize if any of my statements were taken as such.

Completely agree that the LRP is amazing, and I've been very impressed with the level of support and the updates. It speaks to the quality of the product that we are able to appreciate and enjoy it in different ways.


----------



## NinjaTypeR

Kris Deering said:


> If the goal is to emulate a 16x9 TV and have it shown the way they thought it would be (with a 16x9 TV), just lock the aspect ratio to 16x9. Then the image will act exactly the way they thought it would when they encoded it because it would be a 16x9 image changing height only. NONE of this content is designed with a scope screen in mind, zip, zero, nada. So if you want to watch it the way they "intended" it to be seen and maintain the aspect changes the way they intended them to be seen, just lock the Lumagen to 16x9 when you watch it. EVERY other way is going to have some type of compromise whether it is framing, NLS or changing image width (which was NEVER intended in ANY presentation format including IMAX). I lock to scope and just put up with the framing, which has never bothered me yet with anything that I've watched except Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. That one is one of the few that I would recommend locking to 16x9 when you watch it as it was clearly designed around that specific aspect ratio.


Yes, I agree in principle. Definitely about the NLS. That was a throwaway silly comment on my part. Also if you have a 16:9 screen or side masking, not as much of a bother.

Without turning this into a long argument, I do want to provide more explanation here because I think it’s important…The Expanse S4 is an edge case and a lesson in how not to shoot a show.

Putting it on in 16:9 on a scope screen with so much scope content I found it incredibly distracting with black bars top/bottom/left/right. It looks awful.

I would be very much happy to compromise constant image width in this case as the framing and scene cuts in that particular show would lend themself naturally to instant switching between the two.

The scope shots are framed as if they were shooting constant image height compared to 16:9. But the 16:9 shots aren’t framed so they can be cut to scope. The framing isn’t like IMAX content which is why I had a chat with Jeremy after they released it and while they were shooting the next season to ask him not to do this.

But there was a method to the madness…

The 16:9 shots were done with the cameras closer to the actors due to space constraints and needed to be given more image height. The cameras are pulled back for the shots on the planet and are given more width. So actually the framing is off no matter how you look at it.

Some of the intent was to make space feel more confined while the planet shots feel more free. So I absolutely think this show is the perfect case for instant switching between CinemaScope and 16:9 and making 16:9 the same height as the scope content and feel boxed in. Actors’ positions and sizes line up and the intent of giving more expanse (pun intended) to the planet shots is kept.

Anyway, that’s what I think about that show. It’s always bothered me how it was done: whether watching on a TV or a CinemaScope screen. Instant switching would finally fix it, and may actually get us closer to the original intent.

Just to add. There’s not one case in that show where the aspect ratio switches while shooting the same scene, which is what happens with IMAX all the time and actually instant switching could well be very jarring for IMAX content for that reason.

But I can’t think of another example of this at least in my library. As I said, this is an edge case.


----------



## by96

NVM


----------



## SJHT

by96 said:


> NVM


Assume you really mean NLS... And yes it can:



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0020_HowToWatch43ContentOnA169Display_112613.pdf


----------



## NinjaTypeR

BTW, I don’t think instant switching is that super critical to resolve, I never said it was critical before all the other bits. It’s just an interesting discussion. Obviously others might feel differently re importance of this and MadVR comparisons. I personally don’t. Very happy with the Lumagen as is.


----------



## Naiera

187crew003 said:


> Bottom line is true directors intent was for the film to be viewed in a large format auditorium. So no one with a HT is watching with “directors intent”


So we should just give up and watch on a 14” CRT because nothing matters anyway?


----------



## ajbriones

Naiera said:


> So we should just give up and watch on a 14” CRT because nothing matters anyway?


Watch on your phone. Vertically. With NLS.


----------



## graticular

Loving my newish 5244, and think it is great how the improvements keep on coming. Both the improvements mentioned by Jim for the next release sound excellent. One thing that does bug me though is the huge time it takes to change from memory A to B (or vice versa). I have 5A set up for 4K from the ATV and 5B for HD. When you consider the huge computing power in the device it does seem odd that it takes 10 seconds of blank screen before the memory is changed.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

graticular said:


> Loving my newish 5244, and think it is great how the improvements keep on coming. Both the improvements mentioned by Jim for the next release sound excellent. One thing that does bug me though is the huge time it takes to change from memory A to B (or vice versa). I have 5A set up for 4K from the ATV and 5B for HD. When you consider the huge computing power in the device it does seem odd that it takes 10 seconds of blank screen before the memory is changed.


That delay is unavoidable, especially with a projector. Takes time to resync


----------



## graticular

Aaron Toulmin said:


> That delay is unavoidable, especially with a projector. Takes time to resync


That's a shame, so it's not just the processing within the Lumagen, but the 'intercourse' with the projector.


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> Loving my newish 5244, and think it is great how the improvements keep on coming. Both the improvements mentioned by Jim for the next release sound excellent. One thing that does bug me though is the huge time it takes to change from memory A to B (or vice versa). I have 5A set up for 4K from the ATV and 5B for HD. When you consider the huge computing power in the device it does seem odd that it takes 10 seconds of blank screen before the memory is changed.


It's been a while since I tried, but I >thought< you only got a resync if there were significant differences between the memories that meant a display resync was ultimately required. Examples might be having Genlock on in one but off in another, or different audio / Video EDIDs being sent to devices, etc. I >think< if you start with a factory reset config, and switch between memories (when they are all still identical) then the switch is basically instant. I'm sure I used to do this to flip between different CMS LUTs.

If you try it and it is the case, then you need to work out what is different between your memories, and whether it is accident / oversight, or something you really need to be different. It's possible you've made a change to something only affecting memory A for instance, and actually now you're using more memories this isn't actually what you wanted.


----------



## Naiera

graticular said:


> Loving my newish 5244, and think it is great how the improvements keep on coming. Both the improvements mentioned by Jim for the next release sound excellent. One thing that does bug me though is the huge time it takes to change from memory A to B (or vice versa). I have 5A set up for 4K from the ATV and 5B for HD. When you consider the huge computing power in the device it does seem odd that it takes 10 seconds of blank screen before the memory is changed.


You should be happy that it's only ten seconds


----------



## graticular

Naiera said:


> You should be happy that it's only ten seconds


-That's on a good day.


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> It's been a while since I tried, but I >thought< you only got a resync if there were significant differences between the memories that meant a display resync was ultimately required. Examples might be having Genlock on in one but off in another, or different audio / Video EDIDs being sent to devices, etc. I >think< if you start with a factory reset config, and switch between memories (when they are all still identical) then the switch is basically instant. I'm sure I used to do this to flip between different CMS LUTs.
> 
> If you try it and it is the case, then you need to work out what is different between your memories, and whether it is accident / oversight, or something you really need to be different. It's possible you've made a change to something only affecting memory A for instance, and actually now you're using more memories this isn't actually what you wanted.


The essential difference is the EDID settings to prevent the ATV doing the upscaling. Presumably this would count as significant? Gordon set it up, and I did another B memory for the Blu-ray player. Both take 10 seconds plus to change from A to B or back.


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> The essential difference is the EDID settings to prevent the ATV doing the upscaling. Presumably this would count as significant? Gordon set it up, and I did another B memory for the Blu-ray player. Both take 10 seconds plus to change from A to B or back.


Well, it's effectively seeing a new display device, and having to change output resolutions on the source, and then re-sync the display. I think you're not going to improve on that, it is what it is.


----------



## Kris Deering

graticular said:


> Loving my newish 5244, and think it is great how the improvements keep on coming. Both the improvements mentioned by Jim for the next release sound excellent. One thing that does bug me though is the huge time it takes to change from memory A to B (or vice versa). I have 5A set up for 4K from the ATV and 5B for HD. When you consider the huge computing power in the device it does seem odd that it takes 10 seconds of blank screen before the memory is changed.


That isn't the memory, that is instant. That is your projector trying to resynch to the new signal. If I do it in my setup, going from memory A to B takes about 1-2 seconds if that.


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> That isn't the memory, that is instant. That is your projector trying to resynch to the new signal. If I do it in my setup, going from memory A to B takes about 1-2 seconds if that.


So sounds like the N7 is to blame. Maybe my (very) long-awaited NZ9 will be quicker?


----------



## Craig Peer

graticular said:


> So sounds like the N7 is to blame. *Maybe my (very) long-awaited NZ9 will be quicker?*


It will be. My RS4500 takes long enough to re-sync for me to go make a sandwich in comparison!


----------



## 187crew003

Naiera said:


> So we should just give up and watch on a 14” CRT because nothing matters anyway?


well if your going to argue being a purist. you cant move the goalposts to accommodate your narrative. Either your watching directors true intent (massive screen in an auditorium) or you arent (at home...using NLS or not). anything in between is still not directors intent.


----------



## jrp

graticular said:


> So sounds like the N7 is to blame. Maybe my (very) long-awaited NZ9 will be quicker?


If I read it correctly you are using EDID to change source from 4k to/from 1080. 

This means the source output has to restart at the new rate. Then the Radiance Pro input PLL must lock on to the new rate. Then the source must authenticate the Radiance Pro's HDCP (typically 2 seconds). Then in some cases the Pro will restart its output. Then the projector must lock on to the new rate. Then the Radiance Pro must authenticate the HDCP to the projector (again typically 2 seconds). Then the projector may have some internal delay as it figures out what to do with the restarted input.


----------



## ajbriones

187crew003 said:


> well if your going to argue being a purist. you cant move the goalposts to accommodate your narrative. Either your watching directors true intent (massive screen in an auditorium) or you arent (at home...using NLS or not). anything in between is still not directors intent.


I don't think it's a reach to agree that distorting an image with NLS is actually changing the geometry of an image, which is a far cry from watching it from a smaller screen than an auditorium. Also, we master these in smaller theaters than you think. They're closer to home theaters than theaters for the general public. You can love NLS and use it, but you're literally stretching the image. If that's OK by you, then there's nothing left to talk about, really. It's a feature on the LRP and you're using it, which is fantastic.

Additionally, I believe this was brought up in reference to the show Expanse, which was not made for theatrical.


----------



## Naiera

187crew003 said:


> well if your going to argue being a purist. you cant move the goalposts to accommodate your narrative. Either your watching directors true intent (massive screen in an auditorium) or you arent (at home...using NLS or not). anything in between is still not directors intent.


I’m a purist and I strive to get as close to the director’s intent as possible. I don’t use NLS and find it comical that some do, but to each their own.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> If I read it correctly you are using EDID to change source from 4k to/from 1080.
> 
> This means the source output has to restart at the new rate. Then the Radiance Pro input PLL must lock on to the new rate. Then the source must authenticate the Radiance Pro's HDCP (typically 2 seconds). Then in some cases the Pro will restart its output. Then the projector must lock on to the new rate. Then the Radiance Pro must authenticate the HDCP to the projector (again typically 2 seconds). Then the projector may have some internal delay as it figures out what to do with the restarted input.


Yes the Idea with the B memory is that the Radiance Pro does the upscaling rather than the ATV. So obviously a complicated multistage process, which hopefully the (currently virtual) NZ9 will help reduce.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

To be honest the Apple TV upscaling is not that bad. Plus most of the content I watch on Apple TV is streamed which is 4k


----------



## graticular

Aaron Toulmin said:


> To be honest the Apple TV upscaling is not that bad. Plus most of the content I watch on Apple TV is streamed which is 4k


Certainly newer stuff on Netflix and some on Prime are 4K, however zilch on BBC iPlayer is 4K and there are a lot of very good series on there.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

graticular said:


> Certainly newer stuff on Netflix and some on Prime are 4K, however zilch on BBC iPlayer is 4K and there are a lot of very good series on there.


This could be all solved if Apple actually gave us an option to disable scaling and output in the native resolution.


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> This could be all solved if Apple actually gave us an option to disable scaling and output in the native resolution.


Just buy a 1080p AppleTV and put it on a second input. Then you don't have to do all this EDID manipulation that may cause HDMI issues for restarts/resynchs.


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> Just buy a 1080p AppleTV and put it on a second input. Then you don't have to do all this EDID manipulation that may cause HDMI issues for restarts/resynchs.


I did consider that, but there are some disadvantages, eg don't always know if 4K beforehand. I was very glad to get of the old Apple TV, it was so slow and clunky I lost the will to live.


----------



## Kris Deering

graticular said:


> I did consider that, but there are some disadvantages, eg don't always know if 4K beforehand. I was very glad to get of the old Apple TV, it was so slow and clunky I lost the will to live.


You don't always know it is 4K beforehand? Just use the 4K model as your default for ALL viewing. If you find a program you want to watch that is HD, switch to the other ATV. Or just use the 4K ATV as is (no EDID switch and see if it even matters for the HD content you are watching. You may find that you're doing a lot of work for no real perceptible differences given the content.


----------



## docrog

Craig Peer said:


> It will be. My RS4500 takes long enough to re-sync for me to go make a sandwich in comparison!


Which of your wines pairs well with that??????????


----------



## dankeff

Hi Jim,
I have had an issue getting in contact with you this past week.

We had been discussing an order shipping to Hong Kong with emails going back and forth for about a week (lots of helpful info and advice from you) but then suddenly since last Monday I have had no replies. Have tried to call and have left messages.

I wasn’t sure if the office was closed this week but wondering, based on below, if it’s maybe a spam issue?

I definitely don’t have any spam filters catching your emails but wondering if somehow my emails now not getting to you?

I was ready to place the order but just re-confirming details on pricing.

if you could get back in touch via email that would be great.

Dan K



jrp said:


> To the Radiance Pro owner with the 720p display and no video:
> 
> I looked back but did not see your post to quote.
> 
> I wanted to let you know I have received two emails from you. I responded to both. Since you did not then respond to my emails I assume you did not get them. You can email again and include your phone number this time. Also, if you have an alternate email, or can add lumagen.com to your whitelist, that might help us get in touch.
> 
> ====
> 
> As a general comment, if you email us at the lumagen.com support email, please do include your name and phone number, and if you have one an alternate email address in case our responses get blocked by your SPAM filter on the first one.


----------



## jrp

dankeff said:


> Hi Jim,
> I have had an issue getting in contact with you this past week. ....


Update:
Dan is all of a sudden getting my emails. Sending plain text.


----------



## SJHT

docrog said:


> Which of your wines pairs well with that??????????


We are doing a late 90s 3 bottle silver oak vertical next month. Maybe a good sync tasting. 😆


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> I did consider that, but there are some disadvantages, eg don't always know if 4K beforehand. I was very glad to get of the old Apple TV, it was so slow and clunky I lost the will to live.


It wouldn't have to be a 1080p AppleTV. It could be a new 4k unit set permanently to 1080p.

Though I think you will still see some resyncs if you use features like genlock, or if you are running different refresh rates at the time of switch, etc.

Eliminating resyncs completely probably needs two separate AppleTV units on separate input chips, match rate off, genlock off, everything converted to a single refresh rate. Which will introduce its own issues.

You might find though there is some useful improvement just from having the two devices on separate inputs.


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> You don't always know it is 4K beforehand? Just use the 4K model as your default for ALL viewing. If you find a program you want to watch that is HD, switch to the other ATV. Or just use the 4K ATV as is (no EDID switch and see if it even matters for the HD content you are watching. You may find that you're doing a lot of work for no real perceptible differences given the content.


If I start a new recommended series on, say, Prime I don't always look it up beforehand, or if I do it may be weeks ago so don't remember if it is 4K. I will do as you suggest and compare the A and B memories. This may be easier when (if) I get the NZ9 and switching is quicker.


----------



## papaleo

I've been using the Lumagen 4444 18gb/s for a while now, but now my eye has fallen on something in the menu that keeps me busy.
I saw that the Lumagen could not only output 3840 but also 4096 pixels.
My projector (JVC N7) could handle this, so my question is whether it makes sense to switch from 3840 to 4096?
What are the possible advantages of this in terms of upscale/image quality?
Are there any benefits at all to using this or should I just test it out to judge for myself?
Or are there just disadvantages?
Or is this cin4k option specifically intended if you were going to use an anamorphic lens?
If you were to send out with this max 4096 pixels, the image ratios/aspect ratio will also visibly change on your screen, and should this be adjusted in the JVC?

Now I saw that when you would like to check the Cin4k (4096) in the menu of the Lumagen, this does not work, it is not active in the menu.
Now I have come across a list of remote codes in the manual, here is a code (0877) that refers to:
_Set output as 4096x2160 at 24,50,60Hz with rate match off_
Is this the cin4k in question which is inactive in the menu?
And could I enter this remote code with impunity to see what this does to my image?
By unpunished I actually mean….if I were going to do this I wouldn't ruin anything with my fixed settings anyway and I assume that if I don't 'save' this new setting the Lumagen will just go back to its previous saved settings...,


----------



## bobof

papaleo said:


> I've been using the Lumagen 4444 18gb/s for a while now, but now my eye has fallen on something in the menu that keeps me busy.
> I saw that the Lumagen could not only output 3840 but also 4096 pixels.
> My projector (JVC N7) could handle this, so my question is whether it makes sense to switch from 3840 to 4096?


What native ratio is your screen?


----------



## papaleo

bobof said:


> What native ratio is your screen?


100" 16:9


----------



## Mikesterz

I noticed that with DTM on, there’s very noticeable judder when watching a panning scene. It’s smooth when DTM is off. I must have my dtm settings set too strong. DPad 1, ratio 31, shape 3, Tran 7 and DeSat is High. These settings are giving me the best image quality other than the judder when panning. Anyone know which setting should be adjust to prevent the judder?


----------



## bobof

papaleo said:


> 100" 16:9


Well, if you flip to 4096x2160 output that is a 17:9 ratio. Which means that for 16:9 content you would have black bars top and bottom.
The only 2 benefits is for ratios 17:9 (1.85:1) and wider, you can get some more light output by using more panel area, and you can get away with a shorter throw.
But assuming you need to project in 16:9 at times for your 16:9 native ratio, I don't think you get any benefit, and in fact it would condemn you to having to change projector zoom between different ratios, which I think is generally best avoided.
So unless I'm misunderstanding, I don't think it really offers you any benefit, and just gives you a load more things to have to work around.


----------



## Kris Deering

papaleo said:


> 100" 16:9


Don't use 4096 than. no reason to with that screen.


----------



## bobof

Mikesterz said:


> I noticed that with DTM on, there’s very noticeable judder when watching a panning scene. It’s smooth when DTM is off. I must have my dtm settings set too strong. DPad 1, ratio 31, shape 3, Tran 7 and DeSat is High. These settings are giving me the best image quality other than the judder when panning. Anyone know which setting should be adjust to prevent the judder?


Very doubtful it's doing anything to the motion. More likely that your display is switching to a different settings bank when you turn off DTM, and it has different motion settings.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> I noticed that with DTM on, there’s very noticeable judder when watching a panning scene. It’s smooth when DTM is off. I must have my dtm settings set too strong. DPad 1, ratio 31, shape 3, Tran 7 and DeSat is High. These settings are giving me the best image quality other than the judder when panning. Anyone know which setting should be adjust to prevent the judder?


DTM should have zero impact on judder. Only thing I can think here is that you are using a different picture mode on the projector for HDR and the motion settings for that picture mode are different than your SDR mode.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> DTM should have zero impact on judder. Only thing I can think here is that you are using a different picture mode on the projector for HDR and the motion settings for that picture mode are different than your SDR mode.


He has a Christie Gryffin does that even have motion settings?


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> He has a Christie Gryffin does that even have motion settings?


Can't remember. Been a year since I've looked at one and didn't mess with any of those settings.


----------



## thebland

thebland said:


> *RE: Locking in an aspect ratio (to 2.40) for TG Maverick*
> 
> I tried to lock the aspect for Top Gun Maverick but hitting the 1.78 button at the movies beginning. Didn’t work as in subsequent scenes the masks would move to 1.78 and not hold at 2.40. Is there a setting in the Lumagen to ‘lock in’ an aspect ratio after the move commences or what did I miss? I am on a 6 month old firmware.
> 
> Thanks!





themasters78 said:


> ya totally final.
> 
> It's just 1/2 the price of crestron and I'm ok with having a few different apps. This is basically for the audio / video of the home.
> The Thermostats, Blinds will be separate along with lighting. Same for security / smart locks.





bobof said:


> Did you have sticky aspect enabled?


Perhaps not. Where is that in the Lumagen menu system? Thanks!


----------



## papaleo

Kris Deering said:


> Don't use 4096 than. no reason to with that screen.





bobof said:


> Well, if you flip to 4096x2160 output that is a 17:9 ratio. Which means that for 16:9 content you would have black bars top and bottom.
> The only 2 benefits is for ratios 17:9 (1.85:1) and wider, you can get some more light output by using more panel area, and you can get away with a shorter throw.
> But assuming you need to project in 16:9 at times for your 16:9 native ratio, I don't think you get any benefit, and in fact it would condemn you to having to change projector zoom between different ratios, which I think is generally best avoided.
> So unless I'm misunderstanding, I don't think it really offers you any benefit, and just gives you a load more things to have to work around.


ok…thx then it's clear to me not to do this.


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> *RE: Locking in an aspect ratio (to 2.40) for TG Maverick*
> 
> I tried to lock the aspect for Top Gun Maverick but hitting the 1.78 button at the movies beginning. Didn’t work as in subsequent scenes the masks would move to 1.78 and not hold at 2.40. Is there a setting in the Lumagen to ‘lock in’ an aspect ratio after the move commences or what did I miss? I am on a 6 month old firmware.
> 
> Thanks!


Sounds like your auto aspect isn't set up properly. Also, the movie is either 2.4 or 1.9. Were you trying to lock it to 1.9 or to scope? Most would lock to scope, so you'd press 2.4, not 1.78.


----------



## thebland

Kris Deering said:


> Sounds like your auto aspect isn't set up properly. Also, the movie is either 2.4 or 1.9. Were you trying to lock it to 1.9 or to scope? Most would lock to scope, so you'd press 2.4, not 1.78.


I was trying to lock 2.40. It may not be set up correctly. The auto aspect works every time. I think my Crestron is controlling. How would I modify my Lumagen or set up ‘correctly’?. Sticky setting? Thanks, Kris.


----------



## Kris Deering

thebland said:


> I was trying to lock 2.40. It may not be set up correctly. The auto aspect works every time. I think my Crestron is controlling. How would I modify my Lumagen or set up ‘correctly’?. Sticky setting? Thanks, Kris.


If auto aspect is setup properly you would press the 2.40 button on the remote and it will lock the aspect. You stated you pressed 1.78, that would lock it in 16x9 mode. If your masks are triggered by the Kscape (some people do this), the masks may not react properly. I always move my masks manually, I hate auto masks as they react to things I don't want them to.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Can't remember. Been a year since I've looked at one and didn't mess with any of those settings.


My wife took a look and she said it's still there even when dtm is off, dtm just makes it more noticeable due to the brightness. I'm thinking it's simply due to 24fps and a panning scene. I can minimize the effect by lowing some values in the dtm menu (left click). Not sure if there is another value that can minimize it or some kind of motion smoothing.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> My wife took a look and she said it's still there even when dtm is off, dtm just makes it more noticeable due to the brightness. I'm thinking it's simply due to 24fps and a panning scene. I can minimize the effect by lowing some values in the dtm menu (left click). Not sure if there is another value that can minimize it or some kind of motion smoothing.


Brighter or higher contrast images will always exaggerate judder in motion more than other images. This has always been the case with any projector.


----------



## thebland

Kris Deering said:


> If auto aspect is setup properly you would press the 2.40 button on the remote and it will lock the aspect. You stated you pressed 1.78, that would lock it in 16x9 mode. If your masks are triggered by the Kscape (some people do this), the masks may not react properly. I always move my masks manually, I hate auto masks as they react to things I don't want them to.


Thanks so much. That may explain it.
But there is feature to enable ‘Sticky’, correct? I may try that (may not be enabled). Where do I find that? If not, my set up may not allow such as you mentioned. . Thanks for the help, Kris.


----------



## DVD MAN

When I watch Maverick I press the Auto Aspect Disable OFF on the Lumagen remote as soon as the movie starts and it holds at 2:40.



Kris Deering said:


> If auto aspect is setup properly you would press the 2.40 button on the remote and it will lock the aspect. You stated you pressed 1.78, that would lock it in 16x9 mode. If your masks are triggered by the Kscape (some people do this), the masks may not react properly. I always move my masks manually, I hate auto masks as they react to things I don't want them to.


----------



## DVD MAN

thebland said:


> Thanks so much. That may explain it.
> But there is feature to enable ‘Sticky’, correct? I may try that (may not be enabled). Where do I find that? If not, my set up may not allow such as you mentioned. . Thanks for the help, Kris.


----------



## graticular

Jim, I have a request.

After you manually select an aspect-ratio a small box at the bottom of the screen shows the aspect-ratio for ~5 seconds. However when Auto-Aspect does the switching the box is not present. If this box were present after an Auto-Aspect switch it would be massively helpful as I would then immediately know what to set the screen masks to. This would presumably also help anyone else who moves their masks manually. I know this information can be dug out by several presses of the ‘OK’ button but it would be much quicker and easier if the aspect-ratio immediately appeared at the bottom of the screen, and would avoid blocking the screen with menus as the film starts. This would make the start of a film/series a much more relaxed experience.

While Patrick is working on speeding up Auto-Aspect could you possibly ask him to add the aspect-ratio box after an Auto-Aspect switch?


----------



## jrp

graticular said:


> Jim, I have a request.
> 
> After you manually select an aspect-ratio a small box at the bottom of the screen shows the aspect-ratio for ~5 seconds. However when Auto-Aspect does the switching the box is not present. If this box were present after an Auto-Aspect switch it would be massively helpful as I would then immediately know what to set the screen masks to. This would presumably also help anyone else who moves their masks manually. I know this information can be dug out by several presses of the ‘OK’ button but it would be much quicker and easier if the aspect-ratio immediately appeared at the bottom of the screen, and would avoid blocking the screen with menus as the film starts. This would make the start of a film/series a much more relaxed experience.
> 
> While Patrick is working on speeding up Auto-Aspect could you possibly ask him to add the aspect-ratio box after an Auto-Aspect switch?


A reasonable request.

I just sent and email asking Patrick to add the aspect info box on an auto aspect change.

We may need to make this selectable since you likely do not want the aspect info box if you are ignoring my suggestion and using auto aspect for intra movie aspect changes.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> A reasonable request.
> 
> I just sent and email asking Patrick to add the aspect info box on an auto aspect change.
> 
> We may need to make this selectable since you likely do not want the aspect info box if you are ignoring my suggestion and using auto aspect for intra movie aspect changes.


That is brilliant - many thanks for the fantastic service Jim.


----------



## jrp

Patrick completed unwinding the auto-aspect analog video noise compensation, and sent me an early engineering release with instant-auto aspect.

I just watched 45 minutes or so of Top Gun: Maverick from a Strato with this engineering release. Works very well with Top Gun. Not working yet with Aquaman.

Lots of work to do still. Patrick is finding the "digital content" is not as "digital" as we had expected. So Patrick will be adding some range allowance in the code.

Still no schedule, but so far work is actually going more quickly than I expected. I guess there is a first for everything.

==== 

I do not think we will need a "fast" (i.e. not quite instant) auto-aspect mode.

I am also thinking that since all content is delivered digitally to the Pro, that we might not need to retain the analog content auto-aspect mode. Too soon to know for sure, but it would be nice to have only the instant auto-aspect mode.


----------



## Kris Deering

graticular said:


> Jim, I have a request.
> 
> After you manually select an aspect-ratio a small box at the bottom of the screen shows the aspect-ratio for ~5 seconds. However when Auto-Aspect does the switching the box is not present. If this box were present after an Auto-Aspect switch it would be massively helpful as I would then immediately know what to set the screen masks to. This would presumably also help anyone else who moves their masks manually. I know this information can be dug out by several presses of the ‘OK’ button but it would be much quicker and easier if the aspect-ratio immediately appeared at the bottom of the screen, and would avoid blocking the screen with menus as the film starts. This would make the start of a film/series a much more relaxed experience.
> 
> While Patrick is working on speeding up Auto-Aspect could you possibly ask him to add the aspect-ratio box after an Auto-Aspect switch?


I am not home to test this but it already does if you manually select the aspect. So if you press 2.4 on the remote to lock the aspect ratio, the aspect and input name show up on the bottom center of the screen. At least that is what I remember. If you are just disabling the auto aspect, it may not show this. I never do that though, I just select the aspect I want it to lock to by pressing the button on the remote.


----------



## Kris Deering

I got to play a bit with the early alpha of the faster aspect ratio stuff yesterday before my trip. Still a bit buggy but it worked brilliantly with a lot of the content I tested and it is about as close to instant as I could imagine. You see maybe a single frame before the change. Looking forward to testing it a bit more when I get back next week.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> We may need to make this selectable since you likely do not want the aspect info box if you are ignoring my suggestion and using auto aspect for intra movie aspect changes.


Definitely (make it selectable). No need to pollute the screen with unwanted information.


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> I am not home to test this but it already does if you manually select the aspect. So if you press 2.4 on the remote to lock the aspect ratio, the aspect and input name show up on the bottom center of the screen. At least that is what I remember. If you are just disabling the auto aspect, it may not show this. I never do that though, I just select the aspect I want it to lock to by pressing the button on the remote.


Indeed the ratio is already shown after a manual selection, but not after auto-aspect where it would be even more useful.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> A reasonable request.
> 
> I just sent and email asking Patrick to add the aspect info box on an auto aspect change.
> 
> We may need to make this selectable since you likely do not want the aspect info box if you are ignoring my suggestion and using auto aspect for intra movie aspect changes.


Definitely make it selectable please if implemented, I dislike things appearing on screen unless I wanted them there (I have all the blue screen and info screens turned off in my projector, for instance).


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> I do not think we will need a "fast" (i.e. not quite instant) auto-aspect mode.
> 
> I am also thinking that since all content is delivered digitally to the Pro, that we might not need to retain the analog content auto-aspect mode. Too soon to know for sure, but it would be nice to have only the instant auto-aspect mode.


Look forward to trying it out when it's available. 

Re: "fast" detection: I would counter that the delay in detection is often useful for those of us who do choose to wire the AA detection to a motorised screen masking, as it tends to prevent AR changes for the most minimal of OSD events, but still change "quickly enough" - if the switching becomes instant on such things I'll probably end up having to code some kind of delay into my control system, but unfortunately it's really the wrong place to do it as you don't have much information to go on (the debouncing in the current implementation being useful in this respect). A simple delay would be something I guess.

Even better would be the option to configure to ignore or do different things when stuff appears that look like popups or subs to a detection algo at either top or bottom edge of the screen superimposed for a period of time, or at least detect they are present so control system could decide what to do. Such a detection mechanism could also be useful if it allowed the image to be scaled to fit differently (eg bottom subs that could be locked onto screen). In my case I have a 16:9 native -> 2.4:1 maximum masked top/bottom Screen Research mask screen and can actually control the top and bottom masks fully independently, if there were indication of the presence of things in either mask area that would be awesome as I could just drive the appropriate mask.

So what I'd really like to know is:
1) What is the best guess of the AR of the content (not just the pixels currently being used)
2) Are there any popups / subs displayed and where are they.

I'd very much favour features over out and out speed


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> I dislike things appearing on screen unless I wanted them there (I have all the blue screen and info screens turned off in my projector, for instance).


Do bear in mind of course that we are already getting this 5 second piece of information whenever aspect-ratio is selected manually.


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> Do bear in mind of course that we are already getting this 5 second piece of information whenever aspect-ratio is selected manually.


Which I do... almost never. 
But they are different. The displayed prompts in response to IR / control input are useful. They serve as confirmation that what you've asked has happened, and in many cases they provide UI context - eg if you configure the cursors on the remote to do aspect changes or zooming, then you know where you are in the zoom or aspect list from that display. Without that feedback the feature wouldn't really work.

For me it would definitely be unwelcome screen trash, so I just ask that if it does happen it be configurable. Then everyone can be happy


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> I'd very much favour features over out and out speed


Features AND speed. No need to compromise 🤓


----------



## EVH78

Kris Deering said:


> I got to play a bit with the early alpha of the faster aspect ratio stuff yesterday before my trip. Still a bit buggy but it worked brilliantly with a lot of the content I tested and it is about as close to instant as I could imagine. You see maybe a single frame before the change. Looking forward to testing it a bit more when I get back next week.


Great news, but even that single frame needs to be eliminated or I would never consider using it. And yes, aspect ratio info needs to be selectable (or maybe just appear while starting the movie and not again)


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> I got to play a bit with the early alpha of the faster aspect ratio stuff yesterday before my trip. Still a bit buggy but it worked brilliantly with a lot of the content I tested and it is about as close to instant as I could imagine. You see maybe a single frame before the change. Looking forward to testing it a bit more when I get back next week.


Kris: Since I assume you have seen an Envy in action, how does this aspect change speed compare to what MadVR advertises (I have not seen it)? There are only two things I like about what MadVR is pushing: (1) Instant aspect switching (I find the current version of that with my LRP VERY problematic; and (2) with the Envy Extreme, the ability to fix distortion caused by an A-Lens. BUT, for the $15,000 price tag required to obtain that function, and compared to either my Lumagen or the lower priced Envy, I can purchase an automated masking system (using overscanning and a masking system can certainly hide those issues) which would be a lot more useful.

I so appreciate the continuous improvements we get from Jim and his team !!


----------



## Ash Sharma

jrp said:


> I do not think we will need a "fast" (i.e. not quite instant) auto-aspect mode.
> 
> I am also thinking that since all content is delivered digitally to the Pro, that we might not need to retain the analog content auto-aspect mode. Too soon to know for sure, but it would be nice to have only the instant auto-aspect mode.


JIm,
For those s us with Masking system such as my Vistascope - the Radiance also moves (sets) the masking panels - It may be a good idea to have a setting for the masking panels (for example masking panel Yes OR No) and the Radiance goes slower on the AR change to keep up with the masking panels!!
Thanks.


----------



## bobof

Ash Sharma said:


> JIm,
> For those s us with Masking system such as my Vistascope - the Radiance also moves (sets) the masking panels - It may be a good idea to have a setting for the masking panels (for example masking panel Yes OR No) and the Radiance goes slower on the AR change to keep up with the masking panels!!
> Thanks.


I've often thought with this that it would be really nice to be able to have the image digitally masked / unmasked at a speed tuned to match the speed of the mechanical masks, to "add to the magic" and avoid the projection onto the masking panel - I don't know about yours, but my masks being AT will reflect a little light. Pure over-indulgence, of course, but it would look sweet


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> I got to play a bit with the early alpha of the faster aspect ratio stuff yesterday before my trip. Still a bit buggy but it worked brilliantly with a lot of the content I tested and it is about as close to instant as I could imagine. You see maybe a single frame before the change. Looking forward to testing it a bit more when I get back next week.


Do you know if you are seeing a frame delay before the switch, or the "dirty" frame that currently happens on AR / zoom switches? Or has that been fixed?


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> Do you know if you are seeing a frame delay before the switch, or the "dirty" frame that currently happens on AR / zoom switches? Or has that been fixed?


How would he know about the single frame if had not seen it?


----------



## bobof

EVH78 said:


> How would he know about the single frame if had not seen it?


I might be misunderstanding some subtlety of your point (sorry if I'm being thick!). I thought he said he had played with it and that you might see some frame before the change. If there is only 1 "incorrect" frame visible at the switch that could be consistent with the current "dirty" frame that happens already (and not actually a frame delay!) or it could be a frame delay. Or maybe the delay frame is also the dirty frame now. Or variations on that theme


----------



## Des511

Demanding bunch of owners on here


----------



## jrp

Because of internal architecture of the Radiance Pro, to insure minimum latency, there is a frame of delay where the image is scaled to the old aspect ratio when the aspect change is detected. We will deal with this by blacking out that frame. This is not in the code yet and what Kris Deering was referring to.

We believe in minimizing the video latency. Minimum video latency, and Genlock, both help eliminate system issues such as variability in lip-sync. So it does not make sense to me to increase the video latency, so as to not have to black out a frame. Blacking out a frame on a transition will work well and IMO look as expected on an aspect change.

==== 

Point taken concerning masking control about having a "normal" auto-aspect mode in addition to "instant" auto aspect switch. Should be straight forward to have both an instant and a normal auto-aspect. Note that whatever this delay is, it will also delay the _start_ of moving masking by the same amount since the change would not report until then. I propose this be about 1/2 second of hysteresis delay. If you have a different opinion on how long this "normal" delay should be, please chime in.

==== 

In the Other menu you can turn off the input select and aspect select info box at the bottom. I will talk to Patrick about adding a mode to also report auto-aspect changes. I think most do not want the aspect change shown on an auto aspect change. So that would be the default. This matches current behavior. Then any who want could select reporting aspect changes for auto aspect.


----------



## Vinturbo

@jrp
So you think you don't increase the video latency?

If I understand correctly, a quality evolution of the DTM requires a calculation on several frames (5 or 6?). At least I understand that from @Javs ' explanations
I believe that all audio processors, even the cheapest ones, have the ability to synchronize audio with video. However, this operation is necessary due to the delay of many displays and many video projectors! Adding a few more milliseconds to this value I don't think is a bad problem.

I believe this extra latency can make it easier to recognize the correct aspect as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong!


----------



## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> @jrp
> So you think you don't increase the video latency?
> 
> If I understand correctly, a quality evolution of the DTM requires a calculation on several frames (5 or 6?). At least I understand that from @Javs ' explanations
> I believe that all audio processors, even the cheapest ones, have the ability to synchronize audio with video. However, this operation is necessary due to the delay of many displays and many video projectors! Adding a few more milliseconds to this value I don't think is a bad problem.
> 
> I believe this extra latency can make it easier to recognize the correct aspect as well.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong!


The Radiance Pro only needs one frame of latency to detect new scenes for HDR DTM and adjust the transfer function for the new scene. There is no need to more frames to do this.

We have heard that processors with a long latency, especially without Genlock, cause variations in lip-sync that are noticeable. Best to keep latency low, and use Genlock.

The "Normal" auto aspect will have more frames to decide if the aspect has changed.

I have noticed on Top Gun: Maverick that there appears to be a black frame, likely more, when aspect ratio changes. So adding one more black frame will not be an issue IMO.


----------



## Vinturbo

Will a single frame for the DTM be enough to correct the incorrect brightness swings and excessive clipping described by the graphs posted by @Javs?


----------



## bisocri

It also seemed to me that @Javs had said this... anyway for an improved dtm I think a higher latency is an acceptable “bad”!
For me and many others the improvement of the dtm is a priority ... I remember that a short time ago this had been approved ..


----------



## bobof

Des511 said:


> Demanding bunch of owners on here


I think it's bound to come with the territory, given the product category...


----------



## jrp

Vinturbo said:


> Will a single frame for the DTM be enough to correct the incorrect brightness swings and excessive clipping described by the graphs posted by @Javs?


Yes.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> We believe in minimizing the video latency. Minimum video latency, and Genlock, both help eliminate system issues such as variability in lip-sync. So it does not make sense to me to increase the video latency, so as to not have to black out a frame. Blacking out a frame on a transition will work well and IMO look as expected on an aspect change.


I think I've commented in the past that for my own system the latency is fine, and an extra frame would be fine to in the interest of a better result. I think the applications requiring really low latency don't cross over much with those requiring autoaspect, though I appreciate you don't necessarily want to have lots of different operating modes. I think if the blank frame happens only at transitions it's probably OK though... 



jrp said:


> Point taken concerning masking control about having a "normal" auto-aspect mode in addition to "instant" auto aspect switch. Should be straight forward to have both an instant and a normal auto-aspect. Note that whatever this delay is, it will also delay the _start_ of moving masking by the same amount since the change would not report until then. I propose this be about 1/2 second of hysteresis delay. If you have a different opinion on how long this "normal" delay should be, please chime in.


I'm not sure if 0.5sec makes any difference for OSD elements like transport control popups, it probably needs to be configrable to much longer to be useful (the current implementation usually takes a number of seconds for, for instance, the AppleTV transports, to trip it.). 

Would this delayed detection result in the black frame discussed above happening away from the actual scene cut? That would seem a worse result visually I think. 

If you were happy to dial in some video delay in the menus would that be able to avoid it?



jrp said:


> In the Other menu you can turn off the input select and aspect select info box at the bottom. I will talk to Patrick about adding a mode to also report auto-aspect changes. I think most do not want the aspect change shown on an auto aspect change. So that would be the default. This matches current behavior. Then any who want could select reporting aspect changes for auto aspect.


Sounds great.


----------



## Vinturbo

jrp said:


> Yes.


Ok Jim! I am happy with this!


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> I have noticed on Top Gun: Maverick that there appears to be a black frame, likely more, when aspect ratio changes. So adding one more black frame will not be an issue IMO.


Mmm I dont know what version you are watching but on the UHD BR, there is certainly no black frame on aspect ratio changes Ive double checked this on at least 5 of the transitions in the film just now, that would be extremely unusual. I think its a really odd thing to add a black frame where there was none on a scene change it will look like a skip, to me that would stand out like dogs nuts as an editing error since I am an editor.

Edit - There are also none in Interstellar.


----------



## Javs

Vinturbo said:


> Will a single frame for the DTM be enough to correct the incorrect brightness swings and excessive clipping described by the graphs posted by @Javs?


A frame at 24p is about 42ms... So that's what you are dealing with in terms of delay if its 1 frame. Envy has a constant and steady 220ms delay which is enough for 5 frames if it so wished but they ended up doing that for stability with lipsync... but some of that delay is taken up by actual processing like chroma upscaling and things, not all of it would be attributed to DTM.

1 frame may well be sufficient for scene changes depending how they detect it (how many of the pixels in the frame just completely changed for eg and by how much would lead to very safe scene change detections) but for in-scene brightness changes (which are the ones I had a problem with) that will completely depend if they implement a type of rolling average so it doesn't violently jump around. Scene changes are not the same thing as clipping I see within the scenes themselves, Dpad itself is not always enough and when it was it was too aggressive plus another issue I saw more often than not was actually not really clipping in the luma channel but clipping in the colour channels as a result of out of gamut colours after tone mapping is applied.


----------



## Peule_P

So last week I had the opportunity to test a Radiance Pro 4240 in my home theater which a friend just bought and brought with him to me to test.
Setting it up was not hard at all as I have dealt with Radiance XD/XS/Mini/2144 in the past, just the addition of HDR/DTM was 'new'.
Anyway, set it up and working brilliantly on the UHD discs we tested from the Oppo 203, but we already noticed the Oppo home screen was not displaying and the screen was black so we needed to start the discs blind, also the Lumagen OSD was not shown when the screen was black (note that my JVC projector gives a blue screen when no input signal is present, so some input signal was present!).

Out of all the discs we tried, all UHD's worked fine once started blind, but with Blu-ray discs it was a 50/50 case if they show a picture or not, audio always worked, but at the time when there was no picture it was the same black screen as the Oppo home screen and also the Lumagen OSD would not show.

We tried setting the Oppo the 'source direct' (my usual setting), auto, and also 'custom 1080p', but none would show a picture on the BD's that didn't work, switching inputs on both the projector as the Lumagen didn't help either.

Any suggestions on what it could have been, Lumagen was set to output 3840x2160 for both 1080p as 3840x2160 input?
I don't have the Lumagen in my theater anymore as my friend took it home with him, but like to know some options when we try it next time.

The connections looked like this:
Oppo 203 audio/video out to Lumagen input 1, Lumagan video output directly to JVC N7 (or NX7/RS2000 in the US) and the Lumagen audio out directly to my Bryston SP4 (rebranded StormAudio MK1) processor.


----------



## Mark_H

Javs said:


> Envy has a constant and steady 220ms delay


Well, that precludes the Envy from my system. I have 85ms lipsync adjustment, max. 

Would be interesting to know what the average lipsync range of common audio processors is.


----------



## Peule_P

Mark_H said:


> Well, that precludes the Envy from my system. I have 85ms lipsync adjustment, max.
> 
> Would be interesting to know what the average lipsync range of common audio processors is.


My Bryston SP4 (rebranded StormAudio MK1) has a max value of 250ms


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> Well, that precludes the Envy from my system. I have 85ms lipsync adjustment, max.
> 
> Would be interesting to know what the average lipsync range of common audio processors is.


Some relatively recent AVR/AVPs do have quite little available (at least via their UI "lipsync" control). An example would be the NAD T758 V3 I had prior, which has 120ms. But previous Arcam AVR-550, 250ms. Current Monoprice HTP-1, 200ms (though an alternate UI allows access to more).

That number's often not the sum total of what's available though.

AVR/AVPs with HDMI autolipsync often have much more available via that mechanism. I think the Lumagen has a way of setting how much delay should be applied via that mechanism, too, which is sent to the connected AVR to deal with. I'm not 100% sure how it works though, I've never delved into it. EDIT - really not sure how this could work though if you're using the Lumagen for switching, I suppose it would rely on the sources supporting the HDMI audio delay, not the AVR/AVP.

The AVR/AVP has some intrinsic audio delay itself for processing (can be quite significant) which then needs offsetting against the delay in the display and the VP, so you usually don't need to specify all the delay that actually exists in your video chain, you're actually just specifying the delta between the two. My 3 examples above are all Dirac room correction processors, and with room correction active I've rarely had to dial in any significant amount of additional audio delay. I run with Genlock on on the Radiance Pro and don't have any significant processing enabled in the projector, I'm sure if I enabled JVC CMD I'd have to add some significant delay.

There is often the slightly hacky option to grab some extra delay by extending the speaker delays (you can often just increase them all by 50 or 100ms to gain some system delay).

I'd personally be surprised if an extra 24p frame pushed anyone's system over the "lipsync unachievable" abyss (maybe if you had a display with lots of processing that you like to leave enabled). But maybe there are folk out there who are right on the edge of being able to adjust sync, and for sure for them it would be a concern.

However, I accept there is extra complexity involved, which may be unwelcome, and some concern over implementation. Say you add an extra frame. At 24p it's 42ms video delay, but at 60p it's 16ms video delay. So you're increasing the difference in delay between refresh rates, which is not good. Given no audio delay function in the Radiance Pro, that means that for constant sync you end up wanting to add more frames of delay at 60p than at 24p. Lumagen already acknowledge this as an issue though, with video delay being specified in ms and rounded to whole frames, instead of specified in frames. And I guess in low latency mode this would just be another one of the acceptable compromises for getting minimum latency. Plus I'm not sure everyone would like an update that meant they were forced to adjust lipsync settings, or give up video delay they didn't want to, so probably it shouldn't be the "default" to change the behaviour to increase video delay with AA enabled.

If it were feasible to do, I think a nice way of doing it would be that if you choose to add video delay via the current UI feature for video delay, then you get the benefit of that delay in all processing options. That way people taking an update wouldn't have to do anything, they'd get the benefit of the sped up detection (with whatever compromise might be required to maintain their current latency, if that's a black frame, so be it). And if you were happy to dial in some video delay via the existing video delay function, you'd get the benefit of further refinements to the processed result output, be that cleaning up the scaling transitions or aspect detection or whatever else might be improved by having more delay.

You've still got 85ms in your system. I guess a reasonable way of putting it - as an autoaspect user - is whether you'd prefer to keep that "in the bank" (not sure what you're going to spend it on!  ) or give up half of it and have extra black frames (or in the current implementation, bad frames) removed on scaling transition. I'd happily make that trade in my system given the option to do so 

It's sounds like it's not reasonable to lobby for both the black frame to be removed (I'm not saying you are) and the video delay to remain the same though, something has to give.


----------



## graticular

Mark_H said:


> Well, that precludes the Envy from my system. I have 85ms lipsync adjustment, max.
> 
> Would be interesting to know what the average lipsync range of common audio processors is.


My Lyngdorf MP50 goes up to ~500 of which I currently have set on 320.


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> My Lyngdorf MP50 goes up to ~500 of which I currently have set on 320.


Woah, that's surprisingly high setting currently. Do you have a lot of display processing enabled, like CMD, etc?


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> Woah, that's surprisingly high setting currently. Do you have a lot of display processing enabled, like CMD, etc?


Yes I know it's high but seems to be necessary. I have a 9.2.4 system but nothing exotic. I can't remember what I used before I got the Radiance Pro but rather less I think.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> Because of internal architecture of the Radiance Pro, to insure minimum latency, there is a frame of delay where the image is scaled to the old aspect ratio when the aspect change is detected. We will deal with this by blacking out that frame. This is not in the code yet and what Kris Deering was referring to.
> 
> We believe in minimizing the video latency. Minimum video latency, and Genlock, both help eliminate system issues such as variability in lip-sync. So it does not make sense to me to increase the video latency, so as to not have to black out a frame. Blacking out a frame on a transition will work well and IMO look as expected on an aspect change.
> 
> ====
> 
> Point taken concerning masking control about having a "normal" auto-aspect mode in addition to "instant" auto aspect switch. Should be straight forward to have both an instant and a normal auto-aspect. Note that whatever this delay is, it will also delay the _start_ of moving masking by the same amount since the change would not report until then. I propose this be about 1/2 second of hysteresis delay. If you have a different opinion on how long this "normal" delay should be, please chime in.
> 
> ====
> 
> In the Other menu you can turn off the input select and aspect select info box at the bottom. I will talk to Patrick about adding a mode to also report auto-aspect changes. I think most do not want the aspect change shown on an auto aspect change. So that would be the default. This matches current behavior. Then any who want could select reporting aspect changes for auto aspect.


Sounds great to me.


----------



## DigitalAV

Peule_P said:


> So last week I had the opportunity to test a Radiance Pro 4240 in my home theater which a friend just bought and brought with him to me to test.
> Setting it up was not hard at all as I have dealt with Radiance XD/XS/Mini/2144 in the past, just the addition of HDR/DTM was 'new'.
> Anyway, set it up and working brilliantly on the UHD discs we tested from the Oppo 203, but we already noticed the Oppo home screen was not displaying and the screen was black so we needed to start the discs blind, also the Lumagen OSD was not shown when the screen was black (note that my JVC projector gives a blue screen when no input signal is present, so some input signal was present!).
> 
> Out of all the discs we tried, all UHD's worked fine once started blind, but with Blu-ray discs it was a 50/50 case if they show a picture or not, audio always worked, but at the time when there was no picture it was the same black screen as the Oppo home screen and also the Lumagen OSD would not show.
> 
> We tried setting the Oppo the 'source direct' (my usual setting), auto, and also 'custom 1080p', but none would show a picture on the BD's that didn't work, switching inputs on both the projector as the Lumagen didn't help either.
> 
> Any suggestions on what it could have been, Lumagen was set to output 3840x2160 for both 1080p as 3840x2160 input?
> I don't have the Lumagen in my theater anymore as my friend took it home with him, but like to know some options when we try it next time.
> 
> The connections looked like this:
> Oppo 203 audio/video out to Lumagen input 1, Lumagan video output directly to JVC N7 (or NX7/RS2000 in the US) and the Lumagen audio out directly to my Bryston SP4 (rebranded StormAudio MK1) processor.


I would first try a factory reset on the Radiance Pro to test (just don't save if you need to keep settings for your friend's setup, it will revert next time you power cycle).

The Oppo menu is either 1080p/60 or 1080p/50 depending on your region.

Since all of your 4k discs worked but only some 1080p discs, I suspect whatever rate both your Oppo menu and non-working discs are (let's say 1080p/60) is the culprit and perhaps that rate is set to scale in the Radiance Pro to an out-of-bounds rate to your display.


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> You've still got 85ms in your system


For clarity, I have 85ms total available, but I'm currently using 35ms of that, assuming good sources, leaving only a little wriggle room.


----------



## bobof

Mark_H said:


> For clarity, I have 85ms total available, but I'm currently using 35ms of that, assuming good sources, leaving only a little wriggle room.


I see you're using a Meridian 861, I guess that explains some of it, as the manual only claims to have 50ms of lipsync adjust, or 85ms for the UHD722 HDMI box (assume that's where the 85ms number comes from?) I think that is an almost uniquely low level of adjustment in this day and age, I've not seen anything else for years with that little adjustment range. The 120ms of the NAD was the lowest I'd seen for a long time. I'd be surprised if there is any other current product out there with that little adjustment. As you say, no-ones going to be using an Envy in that system!

Out of interest, assuming it is 861+UHD722, does it let you use the 50ms in the 861 as well as the 85ms in the UHD722 stacked up together? I wonder if that would be a way to achieve a larger range of adjustment.


----------



## Mikesterz

There’s a nice feature on the lumagen for football fans. I’m thinking of how I can make a button on my remote for it without using up a memory slot. When watching a game, some channels compress the image in order to add a scrolling ticker on the bottom of the screen to show scores from around the league. I’d rather have the proper aspect of the game. You would plus 6 bottom mask and drop 6% output shrink and it’s back to normal. Let me know if we can make a button that does this.


----------



## audioguy

A couple of nights ago, I watched an older (but excellent) 1080P movie, "State Of Play". The combination of the JVC RS4100 and Lumagen continues to blow me away with the simply stunning image they produce. So very glad I own those two products - and with the continuous improvements of the Lumagen and the upcoming improvements to the newest JVC projectors, it only gets better.

What a combination of great products from great companies!!


----------



## jrp

Mikesterz said:


> There’s a nice feature on the lumagen for football fans. I’m thinking of how I can make a button on my remote for it without using up a memory slot. When watching a game, some channels compress the image in order to add a scrolling ticker on the bottom of the screen to show scores from around the league. I’d rather have the proper aspect of the game. You would plus 6 bottom mask and drop 6% output shrink and it’s back to normal. Let me know if we can make a button that does this.


A memory slot with the cropping adjusted to show only what you want to see is likely the best way.

One thing you can at least try is using the up-arrow to zoom in. Unfortunately this would crop some content you are not trying to hide.

Note: If you have a unit with less than ten inputs, you can use "virtual inputs" to expand the number of memory slots for that input. If your source is on input 1 (for example), you could select input 9, and then use the virtual input menu to select physical input 1 when input 9 is selected. This would give you eight memories for that physical input by allowing selecting input 1 or selecting input 9 to both use physical input 1.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> Note: If you have a unit with less than ten inputs, you can use "virtual inputs" to expand the number of memory slots for that input. If your source is on input 1 (for example), you could select input 9, and then use the virtual input menu to select physical input 1 when input 9 is selected. This would give you eight memories for that physical input by allowing selecting input 1 or selecting input 9 to both use physical input 1.


That's pretty cool! Did not know that was possible! I will try this for when I want to view IMAX formatted content in cropped scope with the image shifted down 5% to correct the eyeline.


----------



## ajbriones

Does anyone here use a Harmony Elite remote with the Lumagen? The current Lumagen 4242 remote in the Harmony database is missing some buttons. I was able to teach it some commands from my remote but for some reason I am unable to teach it the following commands: Auto Aspect Enable, Auto Aspect Disable, Source 1.85, Source 2.40.


----------



## Naiera

I'm watching a 1080i Blu-ray. It has bottom of the barrel video quality (upscaled anime), so any slight improvement matters.

Should I de-interlace in the Oppo or the LRP?


----------



## jrp

Naiera said:


> I'm watching a 1080i Blu-ray. It has bottom of the barrel video quality (upscaled anime), so any slight improvement matters.
> 
> Should I de-interlace in the Oppo or the LRP?


If the content is 24p pull-down encoded as interlaced, and the encoding has the "frame" flag, use the player. This flag definitively tells the player how to merge fields into the correct 24p content when it encoded as interlaced and output as progressive.

If the content is true video at 50 or 60 Hertz, then try both and pick the one you like best. We have certainly improved deinterlacing as part of the Pipeline enhancement work, but it was not our primary goal. So choose which you prefer.


----------



## Naiera

It's 29.970Hz because there's 30 fps content; probably the opening and ending sequences. Otherwise it'd be 23.976Hz, like most everything else.


----------



## acmcool

Can a 5244 be upgraded to 5348?


----------



## Mark_H

bobof said:


> Out of interest, assuming it is 861+UHD722, does it let you use the 50ms in the 861 as well as the 85ms in the UHD722 stacked up together? I wonder if that would be a way to achieve a larger range of adjustment.


Actually, you are correct! Although I'm using the 621, not the 722, but yes, now you jogged my memory, there is an extra layer of lipsync available when chaining these devices. So, I do have a little more wriggle room that I thought. Nice


----------



## graticular

audioguy said:


> A couple of nights ago, I watched an older (but excellent) 1080P movie, "State Of Play". The combination of the JVC RS4100 and Lumagen continues to blow me away with the simply stunning image they produce. So very glad I own those two products - and with the continuous improvements of the Lumagen and the upcoming improvements to the newest JVC projectors, it only gets better.
> 
> What a combination of great products from great companies!!


Sounds great, I am still waiting for my NZ9.
Do you run the RS4100 using the colour filter, or do you go for the extra brightness without it?


----------



## Peule_P

DigitalAV said:


> I would first try a factory reset on the Radiance Pro to test (just don't save if you need to keep settings for your friend's setup, it will revert next time you power cycle).
> 
> The Oppo menu is either 1080p/60 or 1080p/50 depending on your region.
> 
> Since all of your 4k discs worked but only some 1080p discs, I suspect whatever rate both your Oppo menu and non-working discs are (let's say 1080p/60) is the culprit and perhaps that rate is set to scale in the Radiance Pro to an out-of-bounds rate to your display.


Will try that next time indeed, I did a reset on the HDR/DTM setting but not the Lumagen as a whole 
Regarding the Oppo home screen you are correct, the BD’s that didn’t work though where mostly music discs and concerts which could have been 1080i, I will double check on some to be sure.
Definitely the movies that did work where 23.976p


----------



## jrp

acmcool said:


> Can a 5244 be upgraded to 5348?


If you have a 5244 and want to upgrade to a 5348, it would keep the FPGA and processor circuit boards, and we would replace the case bottom and the I/O circuit board with the 5348 I/O card. We have not priced this upgrade. However, if you are interested please email me at the lumagen.com sales email.


----------



## OzHDHT

ajbriones said:


> Does anyone here use a Harmony Elite remote with the Lumagen? The current Lumagen 4242 remote in the Harmony database is missing some buttons. I was able to teach it some commands from my remote but for some reason I am unable to teach it the following commands: Auto Aspect Enable, Auto Aspect Disable, Source 1.85, Source 2.40.


Yeah I do, I can't recall the exact Logitech profile, but as long as I've used(quite a few years now) it I've never found anything lacking in terms of buttons.


----------



## bobof

OzHDHT said:


> Yeah I do, I can't recall the exact Logitech profile, but as long as I've used(quite a few years now) it I've never found anything lacking in terms of buttons.


There are some new buttons from the new remote that avoid some of the two button sequences. I've not tried to program them yet to mine as I have most of the aspect stuff automated over serial.


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> There are some new buttons from the new remote that avoid some of the two button sequences. I've not tried to program them yet to mine as I have most of the aspect stuff automated over serial.


It would be great though if the IR command for auto aspect on/off would be integrated into the Logitech Harmony database.
That´s certainly a good and helpful idea!


----------



## OzHDHT

I don't interact with auto aspect that much in my setup. It's on pretty always unless I want to lock an aspect for some reason like multi aspect content. In that case I select the aspect to manual override.


----------



## bobof

OzHDHT said:


> I don't interact with auto aspect that much in my setup. It's on pretty always unless I want to lock an aspect for some reason like multi aspect content. In that case I select the aspect to manual override.


The new buttons are quite nice for that I think as you don't actually have to know exactly which ratio it is (which isn't always obvious, especially with some of the close ones).

I don't use them at the moment because they only impact auto-aspect and not the aspect detect; I don't actually use auto-aspect and only use the aspect detection (the two are distinct features). That might change when the new version is released if it cleans up what happens at detection / AR change. I have a 16:9 top/bottom mask which means I don't actually need to re-scale most of the time, but with auto-aspect enabled even the non-scaling changing ratio changes introduce the dirty scaled frame (which looks particularly annoying mid-scene when the scaling isn't changing). Hoping for an improvement there


----------



## Sittler27

graticular said:


> Sounds great, I am still waiting for my NZ9.
> Do you run the RS4100 using the colour filter, or do you go for the extra brightness without it?


Filter on here with that combo, however I'm right at -1 iris on med for HDR and have ~ 850hrs now. Once the laser dims to a point where 0 iris with filter on is no longer bright enough I'll likely recalibrate to filter off and lower my iris down to probably something like -4 or so I'd think (remaining on med laser).


----------



## ajbriones

EVH78 said:


> It would be great though if the IR command for auto aspect on/off would be integrated into the Logitech Harmony database.
> That´s certainly a good and helpful idea!


I have tried every Lumagen AV switcher device on the Harmony Database and the new Aspect Detect Enable/Disable buttons as well as the 1.85 and 2.40 buttons are missing on them (I don't merge 2.35/2.40 currently). I also have a CIH screen and the way I use auto aspect right now is that I have it on by default, play media and wait for the detection to kick in, then disable it. That way, I don't have to think about it.

I have tried teaching the buttons to my Harmony HUB and even though it goes through the steps, the resulting learned button does not work. Any ideas?


----------



## clausdk

Kris Deering said:


> Just switch to a slightly narrower aspect. So if the movie is 2.4, try 2.2 or even 2.0. This allows for more space below the frame for the subtitles without giving up as much width as 16x9.


I just tried this, but my setup then stretches the image. Would it be possible to just raise the image slightly? I would loose a bit of information in the top and a small black bar at the bottom?

Even if I shift my projector up, the text is simply cut off at the bottom, so a lens shift memory isnt possible without making this image area visible somehow in the lumagen?

EDIT: I ended up vertically shifting the image up in the Lumagen, now I just need a seperate memory for it. Seems like a pretty decent solution. Wanted to watch a german movie with subtitles so I can't understand what's going on


----------



## ajbriones

clausdk said:


> I just tried this, but my setup then stretches the image. Would it be possible to just raise the image slightly? I would loose a bit of information in the top and a small black bar at the bottom?
> 
> Even if I shift my projector up, the text is simply cut off at the bottom, so a lens shift memory isnt possible without making this image area visible somehow in the lumagen?


If you have the latest beta firmware, press Down > Down and the screen will shift up/scale down to give room for subtitles. I've used it with ATV4k content and it works very well.


----------



## Kris Deering

clausdk said:


> I just tried this, but my setup then stretches the image. Would it be possible to just raise the image slightly? I would loose a bit of information in the top and a small black bar at the bottom?
> 
> Even if I shift my projector up, the text is simply cut off at the bottom, so a lens shift memory isnt possible without making this image area visible somehow in the lumagen?
> 
> EDIT: I ended up vertically shifting the image up in the Lumagen, now I just need a seperate memory for it. Seems like a pretty decent solution. Wanted to watch a german movie with subtitles so I can't understand what's going on


This is based on older firmware. Lumagen has added subtitle modes that do what you are looking for to newer firmware already.


----------



## jrp

clausdk said:


> I just tried this, but my setup then stretches the image. Would it be possible to just raise the image slightly? I would loose a bit of information in the top and a small black bar at the bottom?
> 
> Even if I shift my projector up, the text is simply cut off at the bottom, so a lens shift memory isn't possible without making this image area visible?


In the Global->Video->Features menu select the Letter Box Control as "Off." Then press OK and do a Save. This changes the default behavior so the smaller aspect ratios (e.g. 2.0 on a 2.4 screen) do not zoom to fill the screen.

The default of "Letter Box Control" = "Zoom" is a historical artifact from20 year ago when people wanted their 16:9 content to fill their 4:3 screen. For a long time I have been considering if we should change the default to "Off." Patrick and i have gone back and forth on this topic many times. What we did do is add the Global->Video->Features->Letter Box Control so that you can change between Zoom, Off, Top and Bottom in one go. This command is not a memory setting. Rather it walks the menu tree and changes all the applicable configuration memory bits.

==========

You can alternately choose to use a little bit of the "Vertical Shift" command to move the image up a little. As you say you loose a little at the top but then you would see the subtitles.


----------



## jrp

Instant auto-aspect looking very good. The new "normal" mode looks at 12 frames to have consistently changed before switching aspects. So, it is much faster than our old algorithm that was tuned for analog (and digital) sources. The 12-frame time is about 0.2 seconds for 60 Hertz or about 0.5 seconds for 24 Hertz sources.

Normal will be the default mode. Then people who disagree with my recommendation to watch iMAX like movies (e.g. Top Gun: Maverick) as 100% anamorphic on an anamorphic screen, can select the new "Instant" auto-aspect mode.

Interestingly Patrick said the video data is not as consistent as it should be for digital sources. We have no control over the content. So, he ended up putting back some of the extra "deal with analog noise" stuff from the previous algorithm, but dialed to the digital content and with no additional hysteresis delay.

We will release this as a Beta once we have a couple additional pieces completed and have a full speed FPGA load. We will then ask Beta testers to test and report if we missed any cases for specific source devices, or specific source content. Everything I tested from our Strato and our Roku (NetFlix, Amazon) worked with the new auto-aspect at both Instant and Normal settings.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

jrp said:


> Instant auto-aspect looking very good. The new "normal" mode looks at 12 frames to have consistently changed before switching aspects. So, it is much faster than our old algorithm that was tuned for analog (and digital) sources. The 12-frame time is about 0.2 seconds for 60 Hertz or about 0.5 seconds for 24 Hertz sources.
> 
> Normal will be the default mode. Then people who disagree with my recommendation to watch iMAX like movies (e.g. Top Gun: Maverick) as 100% anamorphic on an anamorphic screen, can select the new "Instant" auto-aspect mode.
> 
> Interestingly Patrick said the video data is not as consistent as it should be for digital sources. We have no control over the content. So, he ended up putting back some of the extra "deal with analog noise" stuff form the previous algorithm, but dialed to the digital content and with no additional hysteresis delay.
> 
> We will release this as a Beta once we have a couple addition pieces completed and have a full speed FPGA load. We will then ask Beta testers to test and report if we missed any cases for specific source devices, or specific source content. Everything I tested from our Strato and our Roku (NetFlix, Amazon) worked with the new auto-aspect at both Instant and Normal settings.


Another good movie to test is Star Trek into darkness, when they travel down to the Klingon planet. There is some quick aspect changes between iMax and 2:35.


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Another good movie to test is Star Trek into darkness, when they travel down to the Klingon planet. There is some quick aspect changes between iMax and 2:35.


Yeah, that scene is a great example since Uhura speaks in Klingon and the subtitles are actually burned into the video stream and NOT in the scope-safe area.


----------



## Craig Peer

YesAnotherTweet said:


> Yeah, that scene is a great example since Uhura speaks in Klingon and the subtitles are actually burned into the video stream and NOT in the scope-safe area.


That's one of the few aspect changing movies that I watch on my 16:9 screen. I'll have to experiment with which way works better.


----------



## Kris Deering

Transformers The Last Knight also has a lot of back and forth aspect changes that are just plain stupid (honestly, whoever thought these were a good idea should be banned from making movies, how the DP signed off on this stupidity is completely beyond me). I will be looking at that one when I get back home next week to see how it behaves with the new updates.


----------



## Kris Deering

Another little tidbit.

I have been testing the new JVC firmware for the NZ line of laser projectors. They have fixed the weird frame flash issue with the new software. It was indeed a JVC issue (colorspace glitch) and was a problem with some other sources as well. For those that have this issue currently you can get rid of it by just putting the JVC in the 422 colorspace mode in the second menu of the JVC menus. With the new firmware you can leave it in the default AUTO and it will work fine.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Kris Deering said:


> Transformers The Last Knight also has a lot of back and forth aspect changes that are just plain stupid (honestly, whoever thought these were a good idea should be banned from making movies, how the DP signed off on this stupidity is completely beyond me). I will be looking at that one when I get back home next week to see how it behaves with the new updates.


I totally agree with this it totally takes you out of that movie very distracting. The statement directors intent was poor with this movie.The Instant auto-aspect will be very useful here i would think.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> Instant auto-aspect looking very good. The new "normal" mode looks at 12 frames to have consistently changed before switching aspects. So, it is much faster than our old algorithm that was tuned for analog (and digital) sources. The 12-frame time is about 0.2 seconds for 60 Hertz or about 0.5 seconds for 24 Hertz sources.
> 
> Normal will be the default mode. Then people who disagree with my recommendation to watch iMAX like movies (e.g. Top Gun: Maverick) as 100% anamorphic on an anamorphic screen, can select the new "Instant" auto-aspect mode.
> 
> Interestingly Patrick said the video data is not as consistent as it should be for digital sources. We have no control over the content. So, he ended up putting back some of the extra "deal with analog noise" stuff from the previous algorithm, but dialed to the digital content and with no additional hysteresis delay.
> 
> We will release this as a Beta once we have a couple additional pieces completed and have a full speed FPGA load. We will then ask Beta testers to test and report if we missed any cases for specific source devices, or specific source content. Everything I tested from our Strato and our Roku (NetFlix, Amazon) worked with the new auto-aspect at both Instant and Normal settings.


Sounds brilliant. Has Patrick by any chance managed to add the selectable auto-aspect info box yet?


----------



## Kris Deering

Chicagobear1 said:


> I totally agree with this it totally takes you out of that movie very distracting. The statement directors intent was poor with this movie.The Instant auto-aspect will be very useful here i would think.


I would not use auto aspect for this, I would lock the aspect to the main aspect of the movie and leave it be. I don’t understand the point of ANY shifting aspect ratio when someone has a scope screen. I understand why people with a 16x9 screen like it, but have zero idea why anyone with a scope screen would want to EVER shift the aspect ratio during a movie EVER. If you actually want to see the aspect shift like they wanted you to, I would just lock the aspect to 16x9 so you see it as intended (constant width).


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> I would not use auto aspect for this, I would lock the aspect to the main aspect of the movie and leave it be. I don’t understand the point of ANY shifting aspect ratio when someone has a scope screen. I understand why people with a 16x9 screen like it, but have zero idea why anyone with a scope screen would want to EVER shift the aspect ratio during a movie EVER. If you actually want to see the aspect shift like they wanted you to, I would just lock the aspect to 16x9 so you see it as intended (constant width).


Bet you wouldn't care for folks with 16:9 screens shifting aspects and engaging masking panels..


----------



## jrp

graticular said:


> Sounds brilliant. Has Patrick by any chance managed to add the selectable auto-aspect info box yet?


We plan a user selectable aspect report for auto aspect. This is not in the current test release but it should be in the public Beta. The command will add a new option to:

*MENU . Other . Menu control .* *OSD enable *

Where "OSD" in this menu refers only to the small status pop-up at the bottom of the screen on an input selection, or aspect change. At least this is the current plan.


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> Bet you wouldn't care for folks with 16:9 screens shifting aspects and engaging masking panels..


16x9 screens maintain width so the shifting aspect makes more sense (IMAX works on the same principle so at least it is doing the same thing). When I had a 16x9 screen I had masking to remove the black bars. I do the same with my scope screen which has variable masking.


----------



## SJHT

I watched Maverick in 16:9 and didn’t use masking. Since I use top masking (my 16:9 screen is retractable) and lower the picture to the bottom (creating widescreen), found the masking going up and down (along with the picture) very annoying. Especially with the delays in the system figuring it all out. I know you are not a huge fan of automated masking, but I use it really only with my Strato. 95% of K movies are fine. I can turn it off with a button on the remote if want to handle manual. SJ


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> Another little tidbit.
> 
> I have been testing the new JVC firmware for the NZ line of laser projectors. They have fixed the weird frame flash issue with the new software. It was indeed a JVC issue (colorspace glitch) and was a problem with some other sources as well. For those that have this issue currently you can get rid of it by just putting the JVC in the 422 colorspace mode in the second menu of the JVC menus. With the new firmware you can leave it in the default AUTO and it will work fine.


That's good to hear. Any other useful improvements, eg on laser dimming?


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> We will then ask Beta testers to test and report if we missed any cases for specific source devices, or specific source content.


Could you check how Jupiter's Legacy on Netflix is handled. When they change aspect ratio they do so by growing/shrinking the image over time rather than an imediate transition. I expect this would trip up any auto-aspect system, and honestly don't see a clean way to handle beyond a long hysteresis. I cannot think of any other examples that change aspect ratio in this way, so it's definitely an outlier case that doesn't need "fixing" - just curious as to how it appears under the new system.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I don’t understand the point of ANY shifting aspect ratio when someone has a scope screen.


Yes, you've made that clear


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Mark_H said:


> Could you check how Jupiter's Legacy on Netflix is handled. When they change aspect ratio they do so by growing/shrinking the image over time rather than an imediate transition. I expect this would trip up any auto-aspect system, and honestly don't see a clean way to handle beyond a long hysteresis. I cannot think of any other examples that change aspect ratio in this way, so it's definitely an outlier case that doesn't need "fixing" - just curious as to how it appears under the new system.


One of the mission impossible movies did this when cruise jumps out of the plane in that halo jump


----------



## Die Zwei

Aaron Toulmin said:


> One of the mission impossible movies did this when cruise jumps out of the plane in that halo jump


Wizard of Oz when he enters Oz (with the balloon).


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Could you check how Jupiter's Legacy on Netflix is handled. When they change aspect ratio they do so by growing/shrinking the image over time rather than an imediate transition. I expect this would trip up any auto-aspect system, and honestly don't see a clean way to handle beyond a long hysteresis. I cannot think of any other examples that change aspect ratio in this way, so it's definitely an outlier case that doesn't need "fixing" - just curious as to how it appears under the new system.


This is the same way that Everything, Everywhere All at once works as well. For everywhere I just locked at 16x9 as it is clear that is the intended format. Sounds like this would be similar.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> This is the same way that Everything, Everywhere All at once works as well. For everywhere I just locked at 16x9 as it is clear that is the intended format. Sounds like this would be similar.


Would be interesting to see how the new code handles this film then. This is one of the few films where I disabled auto-aspect as my Lumagen couldn’t keep up, and so one I’d be likely to look at again once I have the new software.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mark_H said:


> Would be interesting to see how the new code handles this film then. This is one of the few films where I disabled auto-aspect as my Lumagen couldn’t keep up, and so one I’d be likely to look at again once I have the new software.


I would imagine it would continuously adjust as the frame changes, which would be wonky. What else would one expect it to do if the frame is moving out rather than a direct switch to the other aspect. Again, it points directly the to point that they intended for that to be shown on a 16x9 display specifically, so just lock that aspect and watch as intended. Would have been interesting to know what they did theatrically for it.

just looked. So original aspect was 1.85 for theatrical and they shifted the aspect the same way.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> I would imagine it would continuously adjust as the frame changes, which would be wonky.


Which is why I raised the Jupiter’s Legacy show. Worth checking to see how the new algorithm behaves.


----------



## Kris Deering

It will likely do the same. But it isn’t designed for that type of usage case.


----------



## tomasg

Where can be purchased new lumagen remote control? I have LRP 4240. Thank you


----------



## Kris Deering

tomasg said:


> Where can be purchased new lumagen remote control? I have LRP 4240. Thank you


Ask your dealer to order you one or email Lumagen support.


----------



## Mark_H

Kris Deering said:


> It will likely do the same.


I suspect you are right. Easy to test. Jim has mentioned the new "Instant" and "Normal" auto-aspect modes. If these are too fast for Jupiter's Legacy type transitions, it's possible a "Slow" mode might also be useful for these outlier titles to cover all bases.


----------



## bobof

It's not hard to envisage how you would guard against this and just change scaling once, particularly as the Lumagen has ratio "steps". If the detected active vertical pixels is changing slowly between ratios, don't do an AR switch until it's stopped moving. Bonus points if you report the exact current AR over serial while it's changing...


----------



## Kris Deering

At some point we need to move on from super fringe one off cases that aren’t designed for typical aspect changes if we want to see the outlier tone mapping cases worked on.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> At some point we need to move on from super fringe one off cases that aren’t designed for typical aspect changes if we want to see the outlier tone mapping cases worked on.


Exactly it’s not as if we are talking about a lot of movies that have the changing aspect ratios.


----------



## jrp

Mark_H said:


> Could you check how Jupiter's Legacy on Netflix is handled. When they change aspect ratio they do so by growing/shrinking the image over time rather than an imediate transition. I expect this would trip up any auto-aspect system, and honestly don't see a clean way to handle beyond a long hysteresis. I cannot think of any other examples that change aspect ratio in this way, so it's definitely an outlier case that doesn't need "fixing" - just curious as to how it appears under the new system.


I looked at Jupiter's Legacy and Everything, Everywhere All at Once. The instant auto-aspect quantized the smooth change into the supported aspect ratios. So the change looks like a few steps instead of a smooth change. This is as I would expect.

The content producer is obviously editing for a 16:9 screen. Selecting 16:9 at the start of the content would be the way to watch this and get the smooth transition.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> At some point we need to move on from super fringe one off cases that aren’t designed for typical aspect changes if we want to see the outlier tone mapping cases worked on.


I am particularly fond of autoaspect as I've been using it (or trying to ) since long before tonemapping - and even the previous intensity mapping was a feature (the Radiance 2021 if I recall). One man's fringe... To work on another bunch of "outliers" ...

I'm a little surprised we're trying to talk ourselves into moving on before the betas even out and we've knocked it about a bit. It sounds like these may be valid cases being discussed where it may be that the new setup may work differently to how it did previous.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> I looked at Jupiter's Legacy and Everything, Everywhere All at Once. The instant auto-aspect quantized the smooth change into the supported aspect ratios. So the change looks like a few steps instead of a smooth change. This is as I would expect.
> 
> The content producer is obviously editing for a 16:9 screen. Selecting 16:9 at the start of the content would be the way to watch this and get the smooth transition.


For comparison, the same thing happens with MadVR.


----------



## DigitalAV

This is a selfish bump for my vote to add subtitle/cc HDR-ignore zones sooner rather than later @jrp


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Here is Star Trek Into Darkness on my cinemascope screen with aspect changes done by MadVR.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> I am particularly fond of autoaspect as I've been using it (or trying to ) since long before tonemapping - and even the previous intensity mapping was a feature (the Radiance 2021 if I recall). One man's fringe... To work on another bunch of "outliers" ...
> 
> I'm a little surprised we're trying to talk ourselves into moving on before the betas even out and we've knocked it about a bit. It sounds like these may be valid cases being discussed where it may be that the new setup may work differently to how it did previous.


I use it all the time as well. I am only talking about these walking scenes like the ones Jim discussed.


----------



## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Here is Star Trek Into Darkness on my cinemascope screen with aspect changes done by MadVR.


It's a neat trick, feels so wrong though lol


----------



## WCEaglesMan

With all this talk about how the auto aspect algorithm will handle the 1% problematic cases, I hope Patrick just gets it working with the 99% of cases. You can't be fretting over the exceptions rather than the large majority of instances where there is an aspect change.


----------



## Naiera

Kris Deering said:


> At some point we need to move on from super fringe one off cases that aren’t designed for typical aspect changes if we want to see the outlier tone mapping cases worked on.


I'm surprised that all this aspect changing stuff gets _this_ much attention, but I guess that's just me, with my plain old 16:9 screen


----------



## Javs

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Here is Star Trek Into Darkness on my cinemascope screen with aspect changes done by MadVR.


Right so thats actually instant


----------



## Javs

Naiera said:


> I'm surprised that all this aspect changing stuff gets _this_ much attention, but I guess that's just me, with my plain old 16:9 screen


I used to use it to shift scope content to the bottom of my 16:9 screen.


----------



## appelz

bobof said:


> It's a neat trick, feels so wrong though lol


Yeah, given the actual content, looks completely wrong to make the "inside ship" scenes appear larger than the "outside space" scenes. I'm not a 100% follow artistic intent guy, but that is just wrong.


----------



## audioguy

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Here is Star Trek Into Darkness on my cinemascope screen with aspect changes done by MadVR.


Instant AR change or not, I'm still not a fan of the few films (Directors) that insist on using this approach. Fixing it at 2:35, while far from perfect, I find a *lot* less annoying/detracting.


----------



## Kris Deering

WCEaglesMan said:


> With all this talk about how the auto aspect algorithm will handle the 1% problematic cases, I hope Patrick just gets it working with the 99% of cases. You can't be fretting over the exceptions rather than the large majority of instances where there is an aspect change.


Those are already nailed as you’ll see very soon.


----------



## Naiera

audioguy said:


> Instant AR change or not, I'm still not a fan of the few films (Directors) that insist on using this approach. Fixing it at 2:35, while far from perfect, I find a *lot* less annoying/detracting.


I'm of the opinion that they should just cut a damn 1.85:1 version instead of this switching AR nonsense.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Kris Deering said:


> Those are already nailed as you’ll see very soon.


Really looking forward to this ....


----------



## desray2k

Let's quickly move on to the DTM improvements, pls...


----------



## Vinturbo

desray2k said:


> Let's quickly move on to the DTM improvements, pls...


+1


----------



## bisocri

Let's quickly move on to the DTM improvements, pls...


Vinturbo said:


> +1


+1


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> I looked at Jupiter's Legacy and Everything, Everywhere All at Once. The instant auto-aspect quantized the smooth change into the supported aspect ratios. So the change looks like a few steps instead of a smooth change. This is as I would expect.


Thanks for checking, Jim. As always, appreciate the time and attention you give to us.


----------



## Clark Burk

desray2k said:


> Let's quickly move on to the DTM improvements, pls...


+1


----------



## telem

Quick question, currently building a secondary system and as I cannot install a projector I will install an 85" QN900B Samsung together with a Kaleidescape system. Other sources will be an Oppo and an Apple TV 4K but the main viewing source will definitely be K. What are your thoughts on the use of a RP in this setup with a TV would it bring any improvements/benefits?

Thanks a lot for your help


----------



## Naiera

Why in the world would you not buy an OLED?


----------



## Clark Burk

Naiera said:


> Why in the world would you not buy an OLED?


OLEDs are great unless it’s going in a bright room. No idea where he’s placing it.


----------



## telem

Clark Burk said:


> OLEDs are great unless it’s going in a bright room. No idea where he’s placing it.


In a very bright room indeed. Tried an oled, didn’t work for me and lots of reflections on top.


----------



## bobof

telem said:


> In a very bright room indeed. Tried an oled, didn’t work for me and lots of reflections on top.


I've disliked most of the Samsungs I've seen in operation (things like non-defeatable dimming) but have you seen the new Matte screen 2022 Frame TVs? Amazing AR coating (main redeeming feature really).


----------



## telem

bobof said:


> I've disliked most of the Samsungs I've seen in operation (things like non-defeatable dimming) but have you seen the new Matte screen 2022 Frame TVs? Amazing AR coating (main redeeming feature really).


Hear you. But this one seems to work fine. And on top I got a great deal for it nothing close to their excessive MSRP. Closer to the 83 LG G2 price which was my first choice as I also have it in another room in my main residence.

I will therefore take the risk to go with it and just want to know will a Radiance Pro help or not? I will use this setup quite a lot reason why I am thinking about adding one.

Cheers


----------



## Sittler27

Any benefits of the new NZx firmware if you use the NZ in Profile Off mode?

Am I correct in thinking that it would only be the Mode 3 dimming feature that may be of any use on the upcoming projector firmware if you're letting the RP do all the tone mapping, aspect changes, etc?


----------



## jevansoh

I've been considering switching from DirecTV to Dish recently. The reason I originally went with DirecTV several years ago was because at the time, DirecTV had the only receiver that would output native resolution therefore working best with the Lumagen. 

It's been several years, though, and Dish would integrate better with my Josh.ai voice system, plus Dish is considerably cheaper and doesn't require two receivers to get 4k content, so I'd really like to switch but cannot find whether their new Hopper 3 DVR will output each channel in its native resolution or if it upscales everything to 1080i/p.

Does anyone know the answer to this and has anyone done any DirecTV vs Dish comparisons lately using the Lumagen?


----------



## Kris Deering

Sittler27 said:


> Any benefits of the new NZx firmware if you use the NZ in Profile Off mode?
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that it would only be the Mode 3 dimming feature that may be of any use on the upcoming projector firmware if you're letting the RP do all the tone mapping, aspect changes, etc?


Fixes the flash issue, even though there was an easy work around. Mode 3 is the only other main factor.


----------



## jevansoh

I've been comparing some features of the MadVR Envy vs my Lumagen 4446+ lately, simply because everywhere I look someone is talking about the Envy, and I really like the OSD/menu system on the Envy, while the Lumagen OSD looks like a DOS computer from the early 90's and isn't very intuitive to use, IMO.

I have little interest in switching at this time, but I'm curious if there is any chance the Lumagen OSD/menu system will ever be upgraded to look and feel more modern? 

I don't know if the capabilities are there in the hardware and I also don't know if/when Lumagen will ever try to tackle this, but I'd like to know if the possibility is at least there or not.


----------



## Kris Deering

jevansoh said:


> I've been comparing some features of the MadVR Envy vs my Lumagen 4446+ lately, simply because everywhere I look someone is talking about the Envy, and I really like the OSD/menu system on the Envy, while the Lumagen OSD looks like a DOS computer from the early 90's and isn't very intuitive to use, IMO.
> 
> I have little interest in switching at this time, but I'm curious if there is any chance the Lumagen OSD/menu system will ever be upgraded to look and feel more modern?
> 
> I don't know if the capabilities are there in the hardware and I also don't know if/when Lumagen will ever try to tackle this, but I'd like to know if the possibility is at least there or not.


I did a calibration with an Envy a few weeks ago. I didn’t find their menu system very intuitive at all (I didn’t do the initial setup though), or certainly not anymore intuitive than the Lumagen once the initial setup was done. Their text based system didn’t honestly seem that different either, just a different font and color. It also didn’t work with the calibration software I was using (CalMan) despite them advertising that it does. After almost 4 hours of trying to get it to work with the client right next to me and MadVR on the phone for some of it (telling me to backdate CalMan to a version from over a year ago which still didn’t work), we gave up and I just did the projector on my own. During that session I called another high profile traveling calibrator and he said he hasn’t had any luck with getting the Envy to do what they say it will with calibration and he just ignores it. Another called me during the session and I asked him if he had any insight and he started laughing saying he just ignores it as well along with some other information that I would rather not share here. It was not the first impression I was hoping for and the client that was in the room for the entire session was not pleased at all with the experience either and was going to reach out to his dealer about it. 

The Lumagen was designed from the beginning to be a custom install device sold by a dealer that should know how to set it up FOR THE CLIENT. Once this setup is done properly, the client rarely if ever should need to go into the main menus. All of the “season to taste” settings can be accessed from quick commands. The rest should really never need to be messed with. But Lumagen’s operating manual goes through every menu for the most part (some of the recent stuff hasn’t been added) and walks through what the settings do. I agree the font and coloring give it a rather old school DOS look, but the menu system works extremely well once you learn to use it (Which wasn’t even very hard). But I’ve brought the perception of the interface up to Lumagen so I know it will be something that will be looked at down the line. Right now they are prioritizing features/issues that directly impact picture quality.


----------



## bobof

Personally I don't care what font it's in (well, so long as we stay away from Comic Sans! lol) though I can understand the perception. Day to day the only time I see that font is as a faded out OSD volume overlay I implemented. Though I know some folk like to "ride the remote control" and be in and out of the settings all the time, I don't think you should need to be if you set it up properly. 

I think that given the complexity of these units and the limitations of interacting with complex products using remote controls, a good case could be made that more useful would be a detailed configuration editor, something that could let you "unfold" some of the many layers (eg things like the Output setup screens could really benefit from it). Preferably IP (though USB would work for me personally, it might not suit everyone).


----------



## woofer

Kris Deering said:


> I did a calibration with an Envy a few weeks ago. I didn’t find their menu system very intuitive at all (I didn’t do the initial setup though), or certainly not anymore intuitive than the Lumagen once the initial setup was done. Their text based system didn’t honestly seem that different either, just a different font and color. It also didn’t work with the calibration software I was using (CalMan) despite them advertising that it does. *After almost 4 hours of trying to get it to work with the client right next to me and MadVR on the phone for some of it (telling me to backdate CalMan to a version from over a year ago which still didn’t work), we gave up and I just did the projector on my own. During that session I called another high profile traveling calibrator and he said he hasn’t had any luck with getting the Envy to do what they say it will with calibration and he just ignores it. Another called me during the session and I asked him if he had any insight and he started laughing saying he just ignores it as well along with some other information that I would rather not share here. It was not the first impression I was hoping for and the client that was in the room for the entire session was not pleased at all with the experience either and was going to reach out to his dealer about it.*
> 
> The Lumagen was designed from the beginning to be a custom install device sold by a dealer that should know how to set it up FOR THE CLIENT. Once this setup is done properly, the client rarely if ever should need to go into the main menus. All of the “season to taste” settings can be accessed from quick commands. The rest should really never need to be messed with. But Lumagen’s operating manual goes through every menu for the most part (some of the recent stuff hasn’t been added) and walks through what the settings do. I agree the font and coloring give it a rather old school DOS look, but the menu system works extremely well once you learn to use it (Which wasn’t even very hard). But I’ve brought the perception of the interface up to Lumagen so I know it will be something that will be looked at down the line. Right now they are prioritizing features/issues that directly impact picture quality.



Sounds like the same issues with the Envy review unit Stereonet here in Aus has....


----------



## jevansoh

Thanks for your input, Kris.

I'm actually glad you spoke up as I've been meaning to contact you.

I use the Lumagen with my new Control4 setup in a dedicated theater. I don't know if you're familiar with Control4 and the paid Lumagen driver for it, but I'd like to talk to you about possibly doing the setup of it for me (my C4 dealer only set the very basic remote control commands up as he knows nothing about it) and a full calibration including setup of all the features, settings, etc.

If you're interested, please PM me to discuss further.

Thanks!



Kris Deering said:


> I did a calibration with an Envy a few weeks ago. I didn’t find their menu system very intuitive at all (I didn’t do the initial setup though), or certainly not anymore intuitive than the Lumagen once the initial setup was done. Their text based system didn’t honestly seem that different either, just a different font and color. It also didn’t work with the calibration software I was using (CalMan) despite them advertising that it does. After almost 4 hours of trying to get it to work with the client right next to me and MadVR on the phone for some of it (telling me to backdate CalMan to a version from over a year ago which still didn’t work), we gave up and I just did the projector on my own. During that session I called another high profile traveling calibrator and he said he hasn’t had any luck with getting the Envy to do what they say it will with calibration and he just ignores it. Another called me during the session and I asked him if he had any insight and he started laughing saying he just ignores it as well along with some other information that I would rather not share here. It was not the first impression I was hoping for and the client that was in the room for the entire session was not pleased at all with the experience either and was going to reach out to his dealer about it.
> 
> The Lumagen was designed from the beginning to be a custom install device sold by a dealer that should know how to set it up FOR THE CLIENT. Once this setup is done properly, the client rarely if ever should need to go into the main menus. All of the “season to taste” settings can be accessed from quick commands. The rest should really never need to be messed with. But Lumagen’s operating manual goes through every menu for the most part (some of the recent stuff hasn’t been added) and walks through what the settings do. I agree the font and coloring give it a rather old school DOS look, but the menu system works extremely well once you learn to use it (Which wasn’t even very hard). But I’ve brought the perception of the interface up to Lumagen so I know it will be something that will be looked at down the line. Right now they are prioritizing features/issues that directly impact picture quality.


----------



## jevansoh

bobof said:


> Personally I don't care what font it's in (well, so long as we stay away from Comic Sans! lol) though I can understand the perception. Day to day the only time I see that font is as a faded out OSD volume overlay I implemented. Though I know some folk like to "ride the remote control" and be in and out of the settings all the time, I don't think you should need to be if you set it up properly.
> 
> I think that given the complexity of these units and the limitations of interacting with complex products using remote controls, a good case could be made that more useful would be a detailed configuration editor, something that could let you "unfold" some of the many layers (eg things like the Output setup screens could really benefit from it). Preferably IP (though USB would work for me personally, it might not suit everyone).


This would be awesome!

My new StormAudio ISP processor has a simple but very intuitive and useful web based setup. If Lumagen had something like this, it would be great.

Another small thing that would go a long way, for me at least, would be to increase the size of the basic info the Lumagen shows, IMO.

I don't think anything needs changed from the ground up, but do believe it could be made to look more modern and be more useful without a full overhaul and would welcome any improvement in this area.

As for Kris's comment about improving picture quality first, I'm afraid if that's the logic, then we'll never get to the OSD/Menu as wouldn't picture quality always come first? I think some time would just have to be set aside to work on this after (or if) determining it would be in everyone's best interest, or something like this may never happen.


----------



## bobof

jevansoh said:


> Another small thing that would go a long way, for me at least, would be to increase the size of the basic info the Lumagen shows, IMO.


There are three sizes of text that can be selected for the OSD, though I'm not sure which it uses by default. I actually have mine set to the smaller size as I prefer it. Other: Menu Control: Menu Options: Menu Size: Small, Medium, Large.


----------



## jevansoh

bobof said:


> There are three sizes of text that can be selected for the OSD, though I'm not sure which it uses by default. I actually have mine set to the smaller size as I prefer it. Other: Menu Control: Menu Options: Menu Size: Small, Medium, Large.


Thanks!


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> I did a calibration with an Envy a few weeks ago. I didn’t find their menu system very intuitive at all (I didn’t do the initial setup though), or certainly not anymore intuitive than the Lumagen once the initial setup was done. Their text based system didn’t honestly seem that different either, just a different font and color. It also didn’t work with the calibration software I was using (CalMan) despite them advertising that it does. After almost 4 hours of trying to get it to work with the client right next to me and MadVR on the phone for some of it (telling me to backdate CalMan to a version from over a year ago which still didn’t work), we gave up and I just did the projector on my own. During that session I called another high profile traveling calibrator and he said he hasn’t had any luck with getting the Envy to do what they say it will with calibration and he just ignores it. Another called me during the session and I asked him if he had any insight and he started laughing saying he just ignores it as well along with some other information that I would rather not share here. It was not the first impression I was hoping for and the client that was in the room for the entire session was not pleased at all with the experience either and was going to reach out to his dealer about it.


So you went to a client knowing you´re hired to do a calibration with an Envy and you´ve never worked with an Envy before? Seriously?
If you think back to the days you went to your first Lumagen calibration: did you use the same approach - learning by doing on-site at the client?


----------



## alv

Does anyone have issues with HBO shows that are supposed to be HDR not showing up that way. Often I have to restart the show to get the HDR and today, no shows would (I know most HBO shows don't have HDR) even though the had in the past, e.g. GOT. AppleTV --> Marantz --> LRP --> Sony.


----------



## Naiera

Only the two Game of Thrones series have 4K and HDR. I had no issues getting Dragonhouse to play the way it should.


----------



## Kris Deering

woofer said:


> Sounds like the same issues with the Envy review unit Stereonet here in Aus has....


Possibly. Their tech support person said he was going to dive into it more to try and get some resolve but I haven't heard anything from him since. They said for calibration using LS/CS was the best option, but I only know a few traveling calibrators that even use those programs. I am going to look into CS more in the New Year though.


----------



## Kris Deering

alv said:


> Does anyone have issues with HBO shows that are supposed to be HDR not showing up that way. Often I have to restart the show to get the HDR and today, no shows would (I know most HBO shows don't have HDR) even though the had in the past, e.g. GOT. AppleTV --> Marantz --> LRP --> Sony.


I have not, but I know other clients (non-Lumagen users as well) that have had issues where for some reason certain apps don't see HDR or even DV when they did the last time they used the AppleTV. This happens a lot with Netflix as well. Sometimes just forcing shut the app and then reopening works, but I've seen some where the only thing that worked was a full delete of the app and reload (mainly with Netflix). Rare, but I've seen it.


----------



## alv

Thanks. I have sometimes got HBO HDR to work but it is intermittent.


----------



## Kris Deering

jevansoh said:


> This would be awesome!
> 
> My new StormAudio ISP processor has a simple but very intuitive and useful web based setup. If Lumagen had something like this, it would be great.
> 
> Another small thing that would go a long way, for me at least, would be to increase the size of the basic info the Lumagen shows, IMO.
> 
> I don't think anything needs changed from the ground up, but do believe it could be made to look more modern and be more useful without a full overhaul and would welcome any improvement in this area.
> 
> As for Kris's comment about improving picture quality first, I'm afraid if that's the logic, then we'll never get to the OSD/Menu as wouldn't picture quality always come first? I think some time would just have to be set aside to work on this after (or if) determining it would be in everyone's best interest, or something like this may never happen.


You can change the font size of the menu. I am not at my Lumagen right now but I believe it is in OTHER->Menu an you'll see options in there. I can look later today. I believe it defaults to medium for font size.


----------



## Michael-S

Kris Deering said:


> You can change the font size of the menu. I am not at my Lumagen right now but I believe it is in OTHER->Menu an you'll see options in there. I can look later today. I believe it defaults to medium for font size.





jevansoh said:


> This would be awesome!
> 
> My new StormAudio ISP processor has a simple but very intuitive and useful web based setup. If Lumagen had something like this, it would be great.
> 
> Another small thing that would go a long way, for me at least, would be to increase the size of the basic info the Lumagen shows, IMO.
> 
> I don't think anything needs changed from the ground up, but do believe it could be made to look more modern and be more useful without a full overhaul and would welcome any improvement in this area.
> 
> As for Kris's comment about improving picture quality first, I'm afraid if that's the logic, then we'll never get to the OSD/Menu as wouldn't picture quality always come first? I think some time would just have to be set aside to work on this after (or if) determining it would be in everyone's best interest, or something like this may never happen.


There is an option to change the size of the entire menu, which does change the font size. Options are Small, Medium, and Large.

I found it at:
Other -> Menu Control -> Menu Options -> Menu Size


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> So you went to a client knowing you´re hired to do a calibration with an Envy and you´ve never worked with an Envy before? Seriously?
> If you think back to the days you went to your first Lumagen calibration: did you use the same approach - learning by doing on-site at the client?


Dude, WTF. I’ve had a request to look at an Envy with MadVR since they announced it. Not my fault they want to play hide and seek. They have a full write up on how to do the calibration with CalMan. I even emailed with Mathias and he said to use that. I did EXACTLY what it said to do and it doesn’t work (I did it three times with two different versions of CalMan in fact). I told the client before I came that this would be my first work with an Envy. He had zero issues with that. I still got the projector calibrated. I am a pro calibrator that has had numerous people reach out about working on their setup with an Envy. If MadVR doesn’t want to support calibrators other than write ups that clearly are not vetted, how is this my problem?? The procedure looks almost identical to how a cal is performed on a Lumagen, which works fine with every version I’ve had of CalMan.
And clearly I’m not the only pro touring calibrator that is seeing the exact same issues based on just the two calls I had that same day. And MadVR support couldn’t help anyways. I told them this **** show in front of THEIR client could have been avoided completely if I could have done some work with one before hand, you know when I reached out like 2 years ago. Wonder what those other calibrators are saying to their clients when they ask them about the Envy……


----------



## [email protected]

bobof said:


> I think that given the complexity of these units and the limitations of interacting with complex products using remote controls, a good case could be made that more useful would be a detailed configuration editor, something that could let you "unfold" some of the many layers (eg things like the Output setup screens could really benefit from it). Preferably IP (though USB would work for me personally, it might not suit everyone).


My two cents.
I think it was 2011 when I bought Radiance Mini 3D running with bluish OSD and it is still the same for the LRP 4xxx/5xxx series. (I've worked for the two LRP units recently too.)
What if Lumagen can bring us some kinda editor or configurator in windows OS working via USB/RS232 port if ethernet interace is not available and no web based setup is possbile?
Even if it's dealer's job to do the whole configratuion/calibration, etc., it's better to provide very intuitive interface to the customers and dealers so to reduce the confusion/difficulty about the features/menu (It's even beneficial for the vendor's support team.)
The remote is enugh for the simple short cut for the features not neccessarily for the all the configurations.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> Dude, WTF. I’ve had a request to look at an Envy with MadVR since they announced it. Not my fault they want to play hide and seek. They have a full write up on how to do the calibration with CalMan. I even emailed with Mathias and he said to use that. I did EXACTLY what it said to do and it doesn’t work (I did it three times with two different versions of CalMan in fact). I told the client before I came that this would be my first work with an Envy. He had zero issues with that. I still got the projector calibrated. I am a pro calibrator that has had numerous people reach out about working on their setup with an Envy. If MadVR doesn’t want to support calibrators other than write ups that clearly are not vetted, how is this my problem?? The procedure looks almost identical to how a cal is performed on a Lumagen, which works fine with every version I’ve had of CalMan.
> And clearly I’m not the only pro touring calibrator that is seeing the exact same issues based on just the two calls I had that same day. And MadVR support couldn’t help anyways. I told them this **** show in front of THEIR client could have been avoided completely if I could have done some work with one before hand, you know when I reached out like 2 years ago. Wonder what those other calibrators are saying to their clients when they ask them about the Envy……


Thanks Kris for giving some more background on this case.
In your previous post, it sounded like you walked in unprepared which i would call to be a recipe for desaster in any case.
It should work with Calman, but i´ve heard there are some issues around it.
The calibrators we hire for our projects are using Colorspace which seems to work flawlessly - at least we never heard back of any issue.
It´s also true madVR support are not really deep into issues around calibration indeed. They seem to make a clear cut between the box and the calibrator, but should build up more knowledge on the intersection between the both to support in cases you described.
I know your story about reaching out to them to get a demo unit, but you know what the vibes were at that time.
It´s really a pity we´re not active in the US since we would immediately ship a unit to you to play around with like we do with any other potential buyer (if requested).


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

i have no issues with the interface. It’s quick and gets the job done. Once it’s setup you never need to go back into it really.

really if I had the knowledge it wouldn’t be hard to use a raspberry pi as a basic web server to adjust the lumagen and do updates. I’m just not a programmer lol.


----------



## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> really if I had the knowledge it wouldn’t be hard to use a raspberry pi as a basic web server to adjust the lumagen and do updates. I’m just not a programmer lol.


It's not that "simple"(!). The RS232 UI provides access to a subset of functionality that people have needed for automation and calibration duties - I'm pretty sure you couldn't implement a comprehensive user interface using it at present. The most obvious example is setting up the output screen that I mentioned, but there are lots of others where the functionality is only on the UI. (Note I'm not lobbying for that particular thing or any other thing to be added to the control protocol, as I'm not about to write a UI for it!  )

Of course there is a configuration upload / download tool, and everything does live in the configuration, but the formatting of that is proprietary.

The way some gear out there these days work (where the products are basically Linux or other OS computers at their heart) is for all the control of the unit to be done via something like JSON/Websockets, and then all user interfaces (including on the box interfaces) are done using that. The nice thing about that is that in that kind of setup when you add a new feature the 3rd party control interface is already available. The downside is they're often quite heavyweight software solutions (a lot of embedded folk would regard them as sledgehammers to crack a nut).

The Monoprice HTP1 processor is a good example of this sort of setup, as a result there is a complete 3rd party user interface available for it that integrates cool features like an online catalog of BEQ curves that are set up automatically in the unit. It's very cool.


----------



## Naiera

Kris Deering said:


> Dude, WTF. I’ve had a request to look at an Envy with MadVR since they announced it. Not my fault they want to play hide and seek. They have a full write up on how to do the calibration with CalMan. I even emailed with Mathias and he said to use that. I did EXACTLY what it said to do and it doesn’t work (I did it three times with two different versions of CalMan in fact). I told the client before I came that this would be my first work with an Envy. He had zero issues with that. I still got the projector calibrated. I am a pro calibrator that has had numerous people reach out about working on their setup with an Envy. If MadVR doesn’t want to support calibrators other than write ups that clearly are not vetted, how is this my problem?? The procedure looks almost identical to how a cal is performed on a Lumagen, which works fine with every version I’ve had of CalMan.
> And clearly I’m not the only pro touring calibrator that is seeing the exact same issues based on just the two calls I had that same day. And MadVR support couldn’t help anyways. I told them this **** show in front of THEIR client could have been avoided completely if I could have done some work with one before hand, you know when I reached out like 2 years ago. Wonder what those other calibrators are saying to their clients when they ask them about the Envy……


Not that long ago around here I was told that CalMan was not to be trusted (because it says DCI-P3 instead of something else). If Kris Deering uses it, I feel like I'm on the right track 









4K HDR Movies with BT.2020 Color beyond DCI-P3


What I'd love to see is if someone could write something that would scrape a video and analyze what percentage of the movie is outside Rec709 and P3. Then compile that in a repository that could be sorted. It would be nice to see what movies have a lot of colors outside rec709 and not just...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> Thanks Kris for giving some more background on this case.
> In your previous post, it sounded like you walked in unprepared which i would call to be a recipe for desaster in any case.
> It should work with Calman, but i´ve heard there are some issues around it.
> The calibrators we hire for our projects are using Colorspace which seems to work flawlessly - at least we never heard back of any issue.
> It´s also true madVR support are not really deep into issues around calibration indeed. They seem to make a clear cut between the box and the calibrator, but should build up more knowledge on the intersection between the both to support in cases you described.
> I know your story about reaching out to them to get a demo unit, but you know what the vibes were at that time.
> It´s really a pity we´re not active in the US since we would immediately ship a unit to you to play around with like we do with any other potential buyer (if requested).


I am going to look into colorspace here in the coming months. I wasn’t a big fan of LS but I’ve heard good things about CS.


----------



## SJHT

If I were getting an Envy, I would have them ship directly to Kris first…..


----------



## Ilushka85

Never had this issue before but watching the live fight on showtime via roku had non stop video dropouts with hdcp error. Any ideas ? Never had this issue with Roku or kscape before. Video would drop for 15-20 seconds and then return sometimes with a quick blink of hdcp error from roku for under a second. What could be causing this?


----------



## DigitalAV

Ilushka85 said:


> Never had this issue before but watching the live fight on showtime via roku had non stop video dropouts with hdcp error. Any ideas ? Never had this issue with Roku or kscape before. Video would drop for 15-20 seconds and then return sometimes with a quick blink of hdcp error from roku for under a second. What could be causing this?


Not sure if related, but Roku is the only source with which I've had "creeping" problems with my LRP. Tried different inputs and cables. Seems to work fine for weeks, then will sporadically get some video dropout "blips." The only temporary "fix" seems to be unplugging HDMI & power from the LRP and leaving overnight. Wondering if it has something to do with the fact that Roku never goes to sleep like the ATV4k and Shield? Anyway, it's frustrating.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> Of course there is a configuration upload / download tool, and everything does live in the configuration, but the formatting of that is proprietary.


I wrote a prototype of web frontend for the Radiance Pro, which had some convenience feature like be able to label inputs for all memories or by memory. However, the RS232 protocol is way too incomplete to make it possible to replicate the entire functionality of the UI. The UI itself is also incomplete, because you can’t modify certain settings unless you send content in that format. That makes no sense to me. Why can’t I edit my 4K or HD settings, and zoom level per AR without having to find content that matches those criteria first?!?

The only approach would be for Lumagen to document their backup format and let the community (folks like me) create front ends for editing the file. That would effectively make it possible to do everything the UI can do today and a lot more. One could attempt at reverse engineering the format by changing values in the UI and then finding the corresponding change in the file, but it would be error prone and far from complete.

Long story short, @jrp please document the back up format so the community can help out!


----------



## Dave Harper

Yeah even a relatively cheap product like the HDFury devices offer a web GUI for adjustment and control. I’m shocked it can’t be _hasn’t been_ done for a Lumagen.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> I wrote a prototype of web frontend for the Radiance Pro


Yes, I saw, and it was cool as proof-of-concept, but as you say, limited owing to what can be achieved.



bjorg said:


> Long story short, @jrp please document the back up format so the community can help out!


I guess I'd probably disagree with this as an approach (certainly for 3rd parties developing tools). I mentioned it just as I think at the moment it's the only route where all config info is available externally. But I guess that having to keep this kind of config binary format always compatible is a constraint that no-one really wants, nor do I think we'd really want to have to debug what has gone wrong when one bit in a config is incorrect and results in strange operation. Plus it doesn't really improve the control side, you just get the ability to build a better config editor.


----------



## bobof

Dave Harper said:


> Yeah even a relatively cheap product like the HDFury devices offer a web GUI for adjustment and control. I’m shocked it can’t be done for a Lumagen.


I don't think anyone's saying can't, just doesn't at the moment. It's understandable, the Lumagens are incremental products that have built on many years of work, some from a time when scant few products offered such functionality. And something like an HDFury has a tiny featureset, so it's not really a big deal for them to implement (and let's face it, HDFury had plenty of products that didn't have web UI - it's a relatively recent addition for them, too).


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> Yes, I saw, and it was cool as proof-of-concept, but as you say, limited owing to what can be achieved.
> 
> 
> I guess I'd probably disagree with this as an approach (certainly for 3rd parties developing tools). I mentioned it just as I think at the moment it's the only route where all config info is available externally. But I guess that having to keep this kind of config binary format always compatible is a constraint that no-one really wants, nor do I think we'd really want to have to debug what has gone wrong when one bit in a config is incorrect and results in strange operation. Plus it doesn't really improve the control side, you just get the ability to build a better config editor.


There is another desktop GUI that’s more advanced, but it only runs on a Windows PC. 

None of these tools would exist if Lumagen hadn’t provided public documentation for the RS232 protocol. Ditto for automation drivers. Still, they took days, weeks, or months to develop.

I’m wondering if we’ll ever see that level of investment from Lumagen on the software side. Opening up the configuration file specification would a be a win-win: Lumagen gets a free tool, the user base gets a better configuration editor. Cherry on top if it’s open source.


----------



## raullopez1234

Maybe we should open a go fund me account so Jim can hire someone to work on the gui.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> There is another desktop GUI that’s more advanced, but it only runs on a Windows PC.
> 
> None of these tools would exist if Lumagen hadn’t provided public documentation for the RS232 protocol. Ditto for automation drivers. Still, they took days, weeks, or months to develop.
> 
> I’m wondering if we’ll ever see that level of investment from Lumagen on the software side. Opening up the configuration file specification would a be a win-win: Lumagen gets a free tool, the user base gets a better configuration editor. Cherry on top if it’s open source.


Forum member @KarlKlammer has an even more impressive effort here (I don't think it has an AVS thread):





Lumagen Radiance Pro - Heimkinoverein


Hallo zusammen! Ich weiß, daß es hier außer mir noch mindestens einen User mit Lumagen Radiance Pro gibt.Als Eigentümer eines Radiance gewöhnt man sich im Laufe der Zeit daran, ignoriert zu werden. Und das hat eben so seine Gründe.Die Möglichkeit,…




www.heimkinoverein.de





I suppose assuming some agreement could be reached on the format of the configuration being relatively stable / added to (something like that probably happens already, given updates work with arbitrary skipping forward and backwards at least by a few versions) it could be a win if someone was willing to take on the effort of implementing such a program.


----------



## Erod

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Here is Star Trek Into Darkness on my cinemascope screen with aspect changes done by MadVR.


That's so odd to me. The bigger scenes are smaller, and the smaller scenes are bigger.


----------



## Kris Deering

Erod said:


> That's so odd to me. The bigger scenes are smaller, and the smaller scenes are bigger.


It is designed around a constant WIDTH display, which is the opposite of what anyone has with a scope display. So again, IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE WATCHED LIKE THIS ON A SCOPE DISPLAY. Easy fix, lock the aspect and watch it like it was in theaters that were NOT IMAX. 

However, for those that insist on doing it that way, I've been looking at the latest revision of their faster aspect and it is nearly perfect for scenes like this. Takes about a single frame to switch (so whatever that time is). Pat is still fiddling with it a bit, but it worked perfect with all the content I threw at it last night and today.


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

Kris Deering said:


> However, for those that insist on doing it that way, I've been looking at the latest revision of their faster aspect and it is nearly perfect for scenes like this. Takes about a single frame to switch (so whatever that time is). Pat is still fiddling with it a bit, but it worked perfect with all the content I threw at it last night and today.


1 frame on 23.976fps titles equals to 41.708ms. Don't ask me why I know that off the top of my head.


----------



## Erod

Kris Deering said:


> It is designed around a constant WIDTH display, which is the opposite of what anyone has with a scope display. So again, IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE WATCHED LIKE THIS ON A SCOPE DISPLAY. Easy fix, lock the aspect and watch it like it was in theaters that were NOT IMAX.
> 
> However, for those that insist on doing it that way, I've been looking at the latest revision of their faster aspect and it is nearly perfect for scenes like this. Takes about a single frame to switch (so whatever that time is). Pat is still fiddling with it a bit, but it worked perfect with all the content I threw at it last night and today.


Exactly. When it is supposed to switch to the full IMAX effect for big action scenes or whatnot, instead you get a smaller thumbnail effect. Yuck.

I have a 16:9 screen, so I don't mind the changing aspect movies. It's kind of cool the way it signifies big scenes from more intimate scenes.

Not for scope though. I don't understand any anybody would use that.


----------



## by96

Erod said:


> Exactly. When it is supposed to switch to the full IMAX effect for big action scenes or whatnot, instead you get a smaller thumbnail effect. Yuck.
> 
> I have a 16:9 screen, so I don't mind the changing aspect movies. It's kind of cool the way it signifies big scenes from more intimate scenes.
> 
> Not for scope though. I don't understand any anybody would use that.


Completely agree. I have a floor rising 16:9 screen (that sits up a few feet above the ground). I have the LRP move the image to the bottom of the 16:9 screen and then I lower the screen so only the image is visible with black bars on all sides. With Top Gun: Maverick, I just left the whole screen open at 16:9. Yes, at times I had "grey" bars, but overall, the experience was rather pleasant.


----------



## Dave Harper

bobof said:


> I don't think anyone's saying can't, just doesn't at the moment. It's understandable, the Lumagens are incremental products that have built on many years of work, some from a time when scant few products offered such functionality. And something like an HDFury has a tiny featureset, so it's not really a big deal for them to implement (and let's face it, HDFury had plenty of products that didn't have web UI - it's a relatively recent addition for them, too).


OK, I edited that then:


Dave Harper said:


> Yeah even a relatively cheap product like the HDFury devices offer a web GUI for adjustment and control. I’m shocked it can’t be _hasn’t been_ done for a Lumagen.


----------



## KarlKlammer

bobof said:


> I don't think it has an AVS thread


No, I just listed a brief overview and some screenshots in this thread








New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Loaded 120320. DynPad default still showing "2"; update notes say... "default setting for DTM dynamic pad is now 5 rather than 2. So if we had DynPad at 2 before the update, should we change it to 5? Won’t this make the image darker?




www.avsforum.com












New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


A Radiance app would be cool An App to govern the Radiance would be very important if it had the possibility of being able to change all the parameters. It can be used to help users in need. The problem is that it has to work with WINDOWS. In this way, via remote connection (to WINDOWS)...




www.avsforum.com





I haven't changed anything for months, because of missing/undocumented remote control commands.


----------



## OMARDRIS

KarlKlammer said:


> I haven't changed anything for months, because of missing/undocumented remote control commands.


Hi,
the effort for the external (private) creation and maintenance of a user-friendly interface for the Radiance Pro based on the existing documentation is, in my opinion, disproportionate to the benefit.
The Radiance Pro's range of functions is huge and it is not a device that you set up every day, but only touch from time to time. And then the knowledge of the technical correlations is simply more important than a nice interface. The problem is often not just where to set something, but why and how to set something.
In addition, there is the expected effort for the ongoing maintenance of updates and the support of users, which simply overwhelms a private developer. You have to keep the user base small. I know that from my own experience. 
And I suspect Lumagen doesn't have the staff capacity to support such external development. One obviously has enough to do with the ongoing technical updates. And I have all respect for that.  

I have been using my Radiance Pro for over 6 years now and have received at least 130 free firmware updates. 
Peter


----------



## [email protected]

If not all the functions in one app, how about at least adding major stuffs in the editor such as assigning cms and styles for the different inputs/resolutions and copying them easily from the UI so even the newbie installer can finish the job quickly? One big bird eye view instead of multi-layer menu?


----------



## desray2k

OMARDRIS said:


> I have been using my Radiance Pro for over 6 years now and have received at least 130 free firmware updates.


Impressive! You literally keep track of the number of updates


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Here is Star Trek Into Darkness on my cinemascope screen with aspect changes done by MadVR.


Just tested the latest test beta Pat sent me for instant aspect. Used this same sequence and it looks identical to what you show on this video. Instant switch and seamless. Same for the abomination that is Transformers the last knight. Normal mode is now also nearly instant. Fantastic work from Pat on this.


----------



## jbrinegar

Kris Deering said:


> Just tested the latest test beta Pat sent me for instant aspect. Used this same sequence and it looks identical to what you show on this video. Instant switch and seamless. Same for the abomination that is Transformers the last knight. Normal mode is now also nearly instant. Fantastic work from Pat on this.


Great news. Have you had the chance to try it on aqua man?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> Just tested the latest test beta Pat sent me for instant aspect. Used this same sequence and it looks identical to what you show on this video. Instant switch and seamless. Same for the abomination that is Transformers the last knight. Normal mode is now also nearly instant. Fantastic work from Pat on this.


excellent, I’ll do a comparison video between the two when I can try it. Excellent news. Really that’s the underestimated benefit of the FPGA architecture.


----------



## Naiera

Man, Maverick was such a treat on UHD Blu-ray. The DTM on the LRP really shines with something like this. I felt like I was having my cake and eating it too.


----------



## Naiera

mikela said:


> I use a Zidoo Z9X as my main player. I use it for my multi-channel music and approximately 1500 movies. A fellow AVS member just viewed Alita through it and gave his opinion on image quality here.





OzHDHT said:


> I literally just landed a Zidoo Z1000 Pro yesterday to play local files from my NAS instead of using ATV. I've run straight into an issue though with trying to get it to play files via wifi, which my ATV had no issues with. It can't play 4K ripped files smoothly at the moment. I may have to try it with LAN, although the 2 LAN connections in my rack are already taken up.


I'll be buying a slightly used Z1000 Pro tomorrow. Should be nice to be able to play all my homesub projects, even the 4K ones, via network or a hard drive in the player, and not have to transfer them to the USB stick first. Hopefully the subtitle features are neat.


----------



## ajbriones

Naiera said:


> Man, Maverick was such a treat on UHD Blu-ray. The DTM on the LRP really shines with something like this. I felt like I was having my cake and eating it too.


Similar experience on Kaleidescape with the LRP. Watched it cropped to scope on my scope screen. Liked it more this way than with my screen masked to 1.78.


----------



## Naiera

Is KS better than UHD Blu-ray? Guess this isn't the thread for that, though...


----------



## ajbriones

Naiera said:


> Is KS better than UHD Blu-ray? Guess this isn't the thread for that, though...


I don’t order physical releases of movies I get on kscape. That said, I’ve had it on K for almost a couple of months now, and I think it just released on disc.


----------



## Javs

Kris Deering said:


> Just tested the latest test beta Pat sent me for instant aspect. Used this same sequence and it looks identical to what you show on this video. Instant switch and seamless. Same for the abomination that is Transformers the last knight. Normal mode is now also nearly instant. Fantastic work from Pat on this.


Competition sure is a good thing for all...


----------



## desray2k

Are we looking for a possible release of the beta for instant AR switching this week? Hehe.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

desray2k said:


> Are we looking for a possible release of the beta for instant AR switching this week? Hehe.


All good things come to those that wait 😆


----------



## MOberhardt

Kris Deering said:


> Same for the abomination that is Transformers the last knight.


Blasphemy!!!! 

Sorry, I'm not taking offense, but I enjoy those movies, and everything Michael Bay has done to be honest. Just from an AV fidelity perspective, his entire catalog (with the exception of The Island with the Scarlett Johansen acne blurring) is an AV masterclass. Just look and hear how good Bad Boys is on 4k. That was his FIRST movie. His debut...


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> Just tested the latest test beta Pat sent me for instant aspect. Used this same sequence and it looks identical to what you show on this video. Instant switch and seamless. Same for the abomination that is Transformers the last knight. Normal mode is now also nearly instant. Fantastic work from Pat on this.


The beta sounds fantastic. Totally agree about Pat.


----------



## gattorodolfo

desray2k said:


> Passiamo rapidamente ai miglioramenti del DTM, per favore...
> [/CITAZIONE]
> +1


----------



## jrp

jbrinegar said:


> Great news. Have you had the chance to try it on aqua man?


Not Kris, but yes it works great on Aquaman on our Strato-C.

===

On the topic of competition, I would like to point out the fast Auto Aspect has been on our to-do list for at least four years to five years, long before instant auto-aspect became a thing. It just never rose to the top of the to-do priority list. DTM and the pipeline enhancements took priority.

I will say for "fast auto-aspect" I was planning on less than a second. I never considered "instant" a necessary thing since even then it made absolutely no sense to change aspects for an iMAX like movie on an anamorphic screen. Then, as now, doing so is diametrically opposed to director's intent. I will continue my education process to try to convince people of this. However, as with NLS, we add features that our customers want (when possible) even if we do not like them. My list for these include NLS, sharpening, and now instant-auto-aspect.

In this one totally unnecessary feature of "instant auto-aspect change," requests from our customers did play a role in not only making the auto-aspect fast, but in also adding the instant mode.


----------



## tigerhonaker

jrp said:


> Not Kris, but yes it works great on Aqua man on our Strato-C.
> 
> ===
> 
> On the topic of competition, I would like to point out the fast Auto Aspect has been on our to-do list for at least four years to five years, long before instant auto-aspect became a thing. It just never rose to the top of the to-do priority list. DTM and the pipeline enhancements took priority.
> 
> I will say by fast auto-aspect I was planning on less than a second. I never considered "instant" a necessary thing since even then it made absolutely no sense to change aspects for an iMAX like movie on an anamorphic screen. Then, as now, doing so is diametrically opposed to director's intent. I will continue my education process to try to convince people of this. However, as with NLS, we add features that our customers want (when possible) even if we do not like them. My list for these include NLS, sharpening, and now instant-auto-aspect.
> 
> In this one totally unnecessary feature of "instant auto-aspect change," requests from our customers did play a role in not only making the auto-aspect fast, but in also adding the instant mode.


Hi Jim,

I once again wish to say (Thanks) to you and Kris for working with me on the NLS feature. 
I use it frequently when watching the older Western movies that are in the 4:3 ratio.
I have the 16x9 123" Stewart ST130 G4 screen also thanks to Kris Deering.  

Terry


----------



## alv

I saw this today. Will LRP be able to make a software update or does this require a hardware upgrade.

The third-gen Apple will TV 4K has another bit of future proofing up its sleeve:
later this year, a software update will add support for what's known as QMS
VRR. This enables compatible TVs to switch between different frame rates
without any black screens or noticeable picture interruptions. How many TVs
work with QMS VRR, you ask? Well, zero at the moment. But you'll start
seeing them hit the market next year; stay tuned for more news about this
feature at CES. I've never been that bothered by the short flicker when
changing frame rates, but I won't miss it, either.


----------



## [email protected]

alv said:


> I saw this today. Will LRP be able to make a software update or does this require a hardware upgrade.
> 
> The third-gen Apple will TV 4K has another bit of future proofing up its sleeve:
> later this year, a software update will add support for what's known as QMS
> VRR.


QMS is a part of HDMI 2.1 standard so I guess it's not possible to add it via s/w update?


----------



## jrp

alv said:


> I saw this today. Will LRP be able to make a software update or does this require a hardware upgrade.
> 
> The third-gen Apple will TV 4K has another bit of future proofing up its sleeve:
> later this year, a software update will add support for what's known as QMS
> VRR. ...


As for all updates, the faster auto aspect update is a software (only) update. All Radiance Pro owners can update to this new release once we put it on the website.

We plan the initial auto-aspect release to be labeled as a Beta. However, it is working very well and we may be able to change it to "production" after it has some time in the saddle.

Patrick is adding a couple feature tweaks today and is starting FPGA synthesis runs to get a full speed FPGA load. This can take a day to a week depending on how the FPGA tools respond to the updated FPGA design. Once we have the full speed FPGA we will post the fast auto aspect release.

=== 

The Radiance Pro does not support VRR.


----------



## Clark Burk

jrp said:


> As for all updates, the faster auto aspect update is a software (only) update. All Radiance Pro owners can update to this new release once we put it on the website.
> 
> We plan the initial auto-aspect release to be labeled as a Beta. However, it is working very well and we may be able to change it to "production" after it has some time in the saddle.
> 
> Patrick is adding a couple feature tweaks today and is starting FPGA synthesis runs to get a full speed FPGA load. This can take a day to a week depending on how the FPGA tools respond to the updated FPGA design. Once we have the full speed FPGA we will post the fast auto aspect release.
> 
> ===
> 
> The Radiance Pro does not support VRR.


I think that’s great that you got the auto aspect working good although that’s not really something I’ve been waiting for. Hopefully the DTM will be addressed and we will have that before too long. I think it’s quite good now so I can’t wait to see what you and Pat can conjure up for us to improve it further.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> On the topic of competition, I would like to point out the fast Auto Aspect has been on our to-do list for at least four years to five years, long before instant auto-aspect became a thing. It just never rose to the top of the to-do priority list. DTM and the pipeline enhancements took priority.


Maybe so, but it seems it takes people highlighting things very publicly for Lumagen to get up and do something about it and thats a good thing. The aspect switching was highlighted in a video vs Envy and your customers made it clear they wanted it. MadVR has been doing it for the entire time ive been using it since at least 2015, its probably been even longer than that.

Same for DTM, I highlighted a whole buch of stuff publicly and as a result everyone will benefit sooner rather than later it seems.

Nothing wrong with letting your customers drive development to stay relevant and competitive. Its great that you can even retrofit the LRP to still do this kind of thing.

+1 for a GUI total revamp, it should not have taken me the better part of 2 days to get my head around it. Sometimes you can be so 'close' to something as to not see how convoluted something is, such as Kris saying its intuitive, its completely the opposite of intuitive. The DTM stiff is in like two completely different places when it should be just one simple screen for eg.


----------



## ckgolf

Isn’t all the relevant DTM controls accessed by pushing the left arrow button? Where else would you need to go?


----------



## ajbriones

I don't think it's been stated enough that this speaks to the brilliance of the FPGA architecture approach of the Lumagen. Low power, low overhead, fantastic performance. Compared to the brute processing power needed to achieve the same results on competing products.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

ajbriones said:


> I don't think it's been stated enough that this speaks to the brilliance of the FPGA architecture approach of the Lumagen. Low power, low overhead, fantastic performance. Compared to the brute processing power needed to achieve the same results on competing products.


I mentioned this before. I don’t think people realise how efficient this is. You’re getting instant aspect ratio changes and dynamic tone mapping with a very low latency. 

Something that other competing product can not match without 300ms delays.


----------



## Javs

ckgolf said:


> Isn’t all the relevant DTM controls accessed by pushing the left arrow button? Where else would you need to go?


Nope. Well, really, there are 3 different places you can adjust HDR settings where it really should be simply one page and one page only, Left on the remote, then the Input Menu HDR Setup, and the Output menu HDR Mapping Menu, not to mention more options needed on the Output side in yet another screen like HDR Flag...

Some of them even seem to essentially control the same thing or double up in a way and its completely convoluted and redunant unless you are an expert to realise it to be honest, this took me an unreasonably long time to get my head around to make sure I wansnt making things interact in a negative way. I routinely when testing had to go into both sides to change something.

Also for eg just in the input menu, why isnt Dynamic controls, and HDR Mapping stuff on one page, since dynamic completely affects the HDR mapping stuff too. Better yet, why doesnt the Input HDR setup manu just take you to the very same screen as left on the remote, just add more to it and make it super clear.

IN fact, every HDR option can be moved to the Output menu, if the Lumagen just ingests HDR raw and then only applies changes per output then it makes more sense. It does not make sense to me to adjust tone mapping settings based on the input when the lumagen has multiple outputs. This way the logic behind turning HDR Mapping on and off on the output makes total sense, in the chain of operation when it hits the output stage of Display 1, you can adjust DTM PER THAT display, while display 2 can have raw HDR. Why then would you have INPUT side DTM stuff to adjust... Its highly illogical IMO.

Video Input menu:











Video Output menu


----------



## bjorg

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Something that other competing product can not match without 300ms delays.


It’s a design choice to allocate a 300ms budget. This allows multiple frames to be inspected and processed in parallel. 

For 24 FPS content, you have to complete all processing in 41ms to not fall behind. For 60 FPS, it‘s only 16ms.

(edited for accuracy)


----------



## Javs

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I mentioned this before. I don’t think people realise how efficient this is. You’re getting instant aspect ratio changes and dynamic tone mapping with a very low latency.
> 
> Something that other competing product can not match without 300ms delays.


Thats not entirely true though, to do essentially all LRP is doing with Madvr it takes like 16ms render time on my GTX 1080 which is now super old, but not a super weak card either. On the Envy its doing things in 11ms with everything on that I care to use but still applying 220ms global delay so its a constant. Its a fallacy that it takes 200-300+ ms no matter what though, are you fairly comparing results achieved here too because that has to account for something?

5-6 frame lookahead is not a requirement, its just a function because it can, on PC you can actually do it with like 1 frame prepared frames in advance.

I can go way back to beta 10 and get 8-10ms HDR with proper dynamic tone mapping and hue perfect colours no problem. All the HSTM stuff which LRP does NOT do along with AI upscaling to chroma etc adds a lot more time.

Anyway OT here, but if people are going to post fallacies I will correct it. It goes both ways of course, I could technically game on LRP but not the other, though lack of 4:4:4 chroma made me stop.


----------



## bjorg

ajbriones said:


> I don't think it's been stated enough that this speaks to the brilliance of the FPGA architecture approach of the Lumagen. Low power, low overhead, fantastic performance. Compared to the brute processing power needed to achieve the same results on competing products.


FPGA may have been the only viable route back then. GPUs now have so much compute power, it makes sense to use them instead. It also means GPUs have a lot more headroom to add features. That shouldn’t be a surprise given the age of the RadiancePro. The fact that it is still competitive is a high mark for the brilliant engineering that has gone into it.


----------



## Kris Deering

MOberhardt said:


> Blasphemy!!!!
> 
> Sorry, I'm not taking offense, but I enjoy those movies, and everything Michael Bay has done to be honest. Just from an AV fidelity perspective, his entire catalog (with the exception of The Island with the Scarlett Johansen acne blurring) is an AV masterclass. Just look and hear how good Bad Boys is on 4k. That was his FIRST movie. His debut...


I meant the abomination of the random aspect changes every 5-20 seconds. Nothing to do with the movie.


----------



## ajbriones

Javs said:


> Thats not entirely true though, to do essentially all LRP is doing with Madvr it takes like 16ms render time on my GTX 1080 which is now super old, but not a super weak card either. On the Envy its doing things in 11ms with everything on that I care to use but still applying 220ms global delay so its a constant. Its a fallacy that it takes 200-300+ ms no matter what though, are you fairly comparing results achieved here too because that has to account for something?
> 
> 5-6 frame lookahead is not a requirement, its just a function because it can, on PC you can actually do it with like 1 frame prepared frames in advance.
> 
> I can go way back to beta 10 and get 8-10ms HDR with proper dynamic tone mapping and hue perfect colours no problem. All the HSTM stuff which LRP does NOT do along with AI upscaling to chroma etc adds a lot more time.
> 
> Anyway OT here, but if people are going to post fallacies I will correct it. It goes both ways of course, I could technically game on LRP but not the other, though lack of 4:4:4 chroma made me stop.


In my experience on an HTPC with MadVR v113 I had to step up from a 2070 super to a 3070FE to stop all the stuttering with 4k upscale with medium settings.

That said, what made me rethink the Envy and going with the LRP was that it didn't make sense for me to put what is essentially another windows PC in my source chain.


----------



## Nima

Anyone tested the Lumagen with the new Trinnov Auto Lip Sync feature? I reckon it does not work when using audio only HDMI out?


----------



## Die Zwei

ajbriones said:


> In my experience on an HTPC with MadVR v113 I had to step up from a 2070 super to a 3070FE to stop all the stuttering with 4k upscale with medium settings.


Then you definitely did something wrong (which is nothing to be ashamed of since setting up a working HTPC is not trivial) and that´s one of the reasons why people want a off-the-shelf videoprocessor instead of trying to fiddle everything out for themselves.
The notion that the built-in CPU/GPU are saturated by just doing DTM and some black-bar detection stuff is just plain wrong as @Javs already explained.


----------



## Mark_H

jrp said:


> In this one totally unnecessary feature of "instant auto-aspect change," requests from our customers did play a role in not only making the auto-aspect fast, but in also adding the instant mode.


As one of the people who has been pushing you on this for some time now, I'd like to publicly apologise for any existential distress implementing this may have caused you (and any Directors out there!) But, I'd like to think you at least enjoyed the technical challenge, and in particular, derive some satisfaction from being able to deliver requested functionality to your customers, even if it's functionality you'd never use yourself. And for that dedication to us, I'd like to publicly thank you. Lumagen isn't that little box of tricks in my cinema, it's you and Pat and the magic you do.


----------



## bobof

Javs said:


> Thats not entirely true though, to do essentially all LRP is doing with Madvr it takes like 16ms render time on my GTX 1080 which is now super old, but not a super weak card either. On the Envy its doing things in 11ms with everything on that I care to use but still applying 220ms global delay so its a constant. Its a fallacy that it takes 200-300+ ms no matter what though, are you fairly comparing results achieved here too because that has to account for something?
> 
> 5-6 frame lookahead is not a requirement, its just a function because it can, on PC you can actually do it with like 1 frame prepared frames in advance.
> 
> I can go way back to beta 10 and get 8-10ms HDR with proper dynamic tone mapping and hue perfect colours no problem. All the HSTM stuff which LRP does NOT do along with AI upscaling to chroma etc adds a lot more time.
> 
> Anyway OT here, but if people are going to post fallacies I will correct it. It goes both ways of course, I could technically game on LRP but not the other, though lack of 4:4:4 chroma made me stop.


I don't know where the talk of 300ms comes from, that's not a number I'm familiar with.

However the frame processing time is an internal technical detail though and not something the user comes across.

I think there are probably at least 3 frames in the Envy that it *has* to allow for, and at 24p that's already almost 130ms - I think broadly speaking it probably can't start processing until it has a full frame, there needs to be at least a frame delay because of the lack of input to output sync, and then it has to have processed the frame to output the frame. So I think a lot of it isn't a design choice, but an architectural necessity.

And as you mention they've chosen to keep the video delay constant, which means holding onto lots of frames at 60p. I think they've been forced to do that though to make audio configuration sensible - if they just did it based on the required number of frames the difference in AV sync between refresh rates would be huge.

I think in the context of video processors (ie processing video frames from source devices, as opposed to file playback) talking about how long the render times are of a frame is an irrelevance. It's only a useful number for folk building a PC and having to keep the render time under a certain level to be able to have a working system at all.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> I think in the context of video processors (ie processing video frames from source devices, as opposed to file playback) talking about how long the render times are of a frame is an irrelevance. It's only a useful number for folk building a PC and having to keep the render time under a certain level to be able to have a working system at all.


It's probably one of the more critical numbers. As pointed out earlier, all processing must complete in 41ms for 24fps (16ms for 60fps) content to avoid dropping frames. The closer the processor is to that limit, the less new features can be added. It's a real world, hard limit. Hence, important.


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> It's probably one of the more critical numbers. As pointed out earlier, all processing must complete in 41ms for 24fps (16ms for 60fps) content to avoid dropping frames. The closer the processor is to that limit, the less new features can be added. It's a real world, hard limit. Hence, important.


I don't think this theory works in an FPGA based system, and is something that's only important to computers effectively running software on a GPU, which isn't at all determistic (eg more or less operations may happen depending on whether the GPU does clock scaling / some other activity in the system / etc). The GPU will try and do its operations that it has in hand as quickly as possible, hence if you throw a bigger GPU at it, the render time goes down (for the same operations). In the FPGA you have deterministic hardware designed for doing the processing; that hardware has one job, and the clock stays the same. It's quite fine for the processing to be taking the entire 41ms, it's just going to do that forever, it's the ultimate "sausage machine". 

You could even take longer than a frame time elapsed "wall time" to process an individual frame, so long as you had capacity for parallel processing of the frames (the only thing that has a time constraint is putting the pixels onto the HDMI). And that's the same for a GPU. It is only the final "put the pixels into the display buffer" that has to be completed in the render time.

What matters in the FPGA for addition of new features is whether you have spare blocks and the smarts to expand your design with them (or if not, whether you can refactor the functionality you already have to free up some blocks). If you just put a "bigger" FPGA in the system (it's not as simple as that as you usually can't swap them in without rebuilding the configuration, but anyhow) it will still do the job in the same amount of time. It only reduces the processing time when the FPGA engineer re-designs the pipeline.


----------



## dlinsley

Nima said:


> Anyone tested the Lumagen with the new Trinnov Auto Lip Sync feature? I reckon it does not work when using audio only HDMI out?


I had been using audio only output before the update, but moved to passing video through too as I have the Cypress HDMI board in my A16 and wanted to check out the OSD (reported some bugs to Antoinne already). It seems to work in this set up, with 198ms being reported for my JVC RS3000.


----------



## bobof

Nima said:


> Anyone tested the Lumagen with the new Trinnov Auto Lip Sync feature? I reckon it does not work when using audio only HDMI out?


I don't think it could work connected like that. The auto-lipsync stuff over HDMI is passed from sink to source. In the case of a Lumagen (source) outputting to the HDMI input of a Trinnov (sink), the only direction lipsync info could flow is from the Trinnov to the Lumagen.


----------



## bjorg

bobof said:


> I don't think this theory works in an FPGA based system, and is something that's only important to computers effectively running software on a GPU, which isn't at all determistic (eg more or less operations may happen depending on whether the GPU does clock scaling / some other activity in the system / etc). The GPU will try and do its operations that it has in hand as quickly as possible, hence if you throw a bigger GPU at it, the render time goes down (for the same operations). In the FPGA you have deterministic hardware designed for doing the processing; that hardware has one job, and the clock stays the same. It's quite fine for the processing to be taking the entire 41ms, it's just going to do that forever, it's the ultimate "sausage machine".
> 
> You could even take longer than a frame time elapsed "wall time" to process an individual frame, so long as you had capacity for parallel processing of the frames (the only thing that has a time constraint is putting the pixels onto the HDMI). And that's the same for a GPU. It is only the final "put the pixels into the display buffer" that has to be completed in the render time.
> 
> What matters in the FPGA for addition of new features is whether you have spare blocks and the smarts to expand your design with them (or if not, whether you can refactor the functionality you already have to free up some blocks). If you just put a "bigger" FPGA in the system (it's not as simple as that as you usually can't swap them in without rebuilding the configuration, but anyhow) it will still do the job in the same amount of time. It only reduces the processing time when the FPGA engineer re-designs the pipeline.


Let's assume I'm dumb and maybe you can explain to me how the video processor can take more than 41ms per frame and not have frame drops. I can't wait to learn something new!


----------



## bobof

bjorg said:


> Let's assume I'm dumb and maybe you can explain to me how the video processor can take more than 41ms per frame and not have frame drops. I can't wait to learn something new!


This is a hypothetical (the numbers do not reflect any product in particular). It's just an illustration of how:
Say you only had a design that for whatever reason could only process a frame in 164ms (you're building it with slow building blocks). But you could have 4 of these pipelines in parallel in your system, each working on a frame at a time.
So the first frame goes into pipeline 1 and emerges 164ms later.
The next frame goes into pipeline 2 41 ms after the first and emerges 205ms later...
Ad infinitum.

The key is that you only need to be able to keep up with frames being received, and then output, every 41ms. Averaged over time, you do have to be processing one frame every 41ms or less. But exactly how long it takes to process an individual frame (in wall time) is an implementation detail. You may not want it to take long because you want a low latency system, but it could be processed over a longer period.

And in the case of black-boxes like a Radiance or and Envy, the ONLY number that matters really is the one the end user sees (ie how long it takes for video to go in one side and out the other), assuming the designers do their job and ensure that on average a frame is processed every frame time (if they don't do that, it's broken, and we assume these things are not broken).


----------



## cappy1

The “New Subtitle Mode” works great for Netflix subtitles, the only source that needs this feature. Are the presets (8 & 12%) adjustable? Eyeballing it, I need about 4% for two rows of text.


----------



## jrp

cappy1 said:


> The “New Subtitle Mode” works great for Netflix subtitles, the only source that needs this feature. Are the presets (8 & 12%) adjustable? Eyeballing it, I need about 4% for two rows of text.


Current subtitle software is now (up to) 6% for first down-click, and then10% for second one. These are adjusted down for aspects with less than 6%, or less than 10%, letter-box height below the active image.

These amounts are not currently programmable, but we are considering making them programmable since a couple people have requested it.


----------



## gattorodolfo

jrp said:


> L'attuale software per i sottotitoli è ora (fino al) 6% per il primo clic verso il basso e poi del 10% per il secondo. Questi vengono ridotti per aspetti con un'altezza della cassetta delle lettere inferiore al 6% o inferiore al 10% al di sotto dell'immagine attiva.
> 
> Questi importi non sono attualmente programmabili, ma stiamo valutando di renderli programmabili poiché un paio di persone lo hanno richiesto.
> [/CITAZIONE]


this would be a great upgrade


----------



## chasiliff

I have been messing around with my LRP settings recently. I set up a memory C to allow me to disable DTM on the LRP and to have my JVC RS3100 perform frame by frame DTM. Obviously, this means it passes HDR2020 through to the projector. I am doing this in anticipation of the JVC firmware upgrade, getting ready for experimenting.

I have been adjusting two LRP HDR settings to get a brighter image when the JVC is performing Frame by Frame DTM:

First, I have changed default HDR Src MaxCLL to 10000 nits and have LRP forcing that Always. (I do this frequently when the LRP is performing DTM as well, to typically very good brightness increase with some shows. Great example: The Boys on Amazon.) Most streaming movies and shows end up brighter in dark material and bright material, but not too bright. Every once in a while, a show is very bright, so I have to go back to 4000 nits Auto. Is there a way to rapidly adjust the Src MaxCLL between 1000/4000/10000 and Always/Auto besides the many button presses diving into the HDR settings?

Second, I have started adjusting the HDR Mapping Crossover point to see if that changes image information for the JVC tone mapping to work with. I am currently on Crossover: 1500. Is this making a difference or is it my imagination?

A last question: Can the Lumagen pass HDR10+? I will have the new ATV 4k next week and would love to try it out.

I appreciate any thoughts.


----------



## MDesigns

chasiliff said:


> I have been messing around with my LRP settings recently. I set up a memory C to allow me to disable DTM on the LRP and to have my JVC RS3100 perform frame by frame DTM. Obviously, this means it passes HDR2020 through to the projector. I am doing this in anticipation of the JVC firmware upgrade, getting ready for experimenting.
> 
> I have been adjusting two LRP HDR settings to get a brighter image when the JVC is performing Frame by Frame DTM:
> 
> First, I have changed default HDR Src MaxCLL to 10000 nits and have LRP forcing that Always. (I do this frequently when the LRP is performing DTM as well, to typically very good brightness increase with some shows. Great example: The Boys on Amazon.) Most streaming movies and shows end up brighter in dark material and bright material, but not too bright. Every once in a while, a show is very bright, so I have to go back to 4000 nits Auto. Is there a way to rapidly adjust the Src MaxCLL between 1000/4000/10000 and Always/Auto besides the many button presses diving into the HDR settings?
> 
> Second, I have started adjusting the HDR Mapping Crossover point to see if that changes image information for the JVC tone mapping to work with. I am currently on Crossover: 1500. Is this making a difference or is it my imagination?
> 
> A last question: Can the Lumagen pass HDR10+? I will have the new ATV 4k next week and would love to try it out.
> 
> I appreciate any thoughts.


IMO those settings shouldn't do anything if the Lumagen is not doing the HDR tonemapping? Or do you mean DTM is off but still doing some kind of HDR to HDR tonemapping?


----------



## chasiliff

I have turned off the DTM and I have set the Lumagen to output HDR2020 rather than SDR2020.

"IMO those settings shouldn't do anything if the Lumagen is not doing the HDR tonemapping? Or do you mean DTM is off but still doing some kind of HDR to HDR tonemapping?"


I would have guessed that as well until I tried it. When I input 1000 nits fixed, 4000 nits fixed or 10000 nits fixed with the Lumagen, I get different brightness of the image when I am using the Lumagen to pass HDR2020 from my AppleTV to the RS3100 for many streaming shows/movies. (obviously, material streaming at 10000 nits would not change with this Lumagen change)

When I use my Lumagen passing AppleTV HDR to my JVC in SDR2020 with the Lumagen performing DTM, I also get differences in overall scene brightness when I "Lock" it to nits. 10000 seems to give me the brightest overall image. As I said above, some movies, at 10000 nits fixed, end up with significant white crush or, simply, overly washed out white; I then set it to 4000 Auto.

The new Game of Thrones is so dark that I set up a Lumagen Bright HDR setting with gamma 2.2 and I calibrated my JVC using the JVC software for a quite good calibrated SDR2020 to go with it. I find that setting the HDR Src MaxCLL to 10000 nits for either my Lumagen Bright Gamma 2.2 HDR setting and JVC DTM Frame by Frame (Gamma fixed by JVC) setting gives me a punchy picture for highlights and overall brightness.

When I have Lumagen DTM off, is it performing any type of HDR to HDR tonemapping? Is it a forced tonemapping when the source information is lower nits and output at 10000 nits?


----------



## MDesigns

chasiliff said:


> I have turned off the DTM and I have set the Lumagen to output HDR2020 rather than SDR2020.
> 
> "IMO those settings shouldn't do anything if the Lumagen is not doing the HDR tonemapping? Or do you mean DTM is off but still doing some kind of HDR to HDR tonemapping?"
> 
> 
> I would have guessed that as well until I tried it. When I input 1000 nits fixed, 4000 nits fixed or 10000 nits fixed with the Lumagen, I get different brightness of the image when I am using the Lumagen to pass HDR2020 from my AppleTV to the RS3100 for many streaming shows/movies. (obviously, material streaming at 10000 nits would not change with this Lumagen change)
> 
> When I use my Lumagen passing AppleTV HDR to my JVC in SDR2020 with the Lumagen performing DTM, I also get differences in overall scene brightness when I "Lock" it to nits. 10000 seems to give me the brightest overall image. As I said above, some movies, at 10000 nits fixed, end up with significant white crush or, simply, overly washed out white; I then set it to 4000 Auto.
> 
> The new Game of Thrones is so dark that I set up a Lumagen Bright HDR setting with gamma 2.2 and I calibrated my JVC using the JVC software for a quite good calibrated SDR2020 to go with it. I find that setting the HDR Src MaxCLL to 10000 nits for either my Lumagen Bright Gamma 2.2 HDR setting and JVC DTM Frame by Frame (Gamma fixed by JVC) setting gives me a punchy picture for highlights and overall brightness.
> 
> When I have Lumagen DTM off, is it performing any type of HDR to HDR tonemapping? Is it a forced tonemapping when the source information is lower nits and output at 10000 nits?


Nice experimenting there, I think it is not so usual way to use the Lumagen 👍 That seems somewhat counterintuitive for picture to get brighter when you up the Src MaxCLL. My gut feeling would have been for picture to get darker when leaving more headroom for the maybe coming bright highlights... Weird stuff 😃


----------



## Kris Deering

Just got the latest test version for the new instant aspect ratio stuff. Looks fantastic and I can't get it to trip up. Changes in the "instant" mode are instant, so those that would actually want to watch shifting stuff can with zero issues. They also added other modes for slightly slower for those that don't need instant but want fast. They also added an option report that pops up when it shifts (for those that asked for this). 

Another thing that was added is a new approach to NLS use. Before if you wanted to use NLS on occasion (and not always on) you would press NLS and it would activate, but turning it off meant selecting the original aspect and then re-enabling auto aspect. With this release NLS is now a toggle. So if you want it on, press NLS button on remote, to turn off just press it again and NO other presses or settings are required. MUCH easier for those that just want to use it on occasion. 

They also added a 2.4 option for Kscape owners that use the graphics flag for the cover menu in scope instead of just 2.35 (native). 

I think those that were really hoping for faster aspect stuff are going to be elated with this update on all fronts.


----------



## Kris Deering

NLS always on, for those that use it, is also seamless now with aspect changes, so basically identical to what you see from the MadVR video with Interstellar. I would never recommend doing this (neither would Lumagen), but it is there for those that want to.


----------



## melb0028

chasiliff said:


> I have turned off the DTM and I have set the Lumagen to output HDR2020 rather than SDR2020.
> 
> "IMO those settings shouldn't do anything if the Lumagen is not doing the HDR tonemapping? Or do you mean DTM is off but still doing some kind of HDR to HDR tonemapping?"
> 
> 
> I would have guessed that as well until I tried it. When I input 1000 nits fixed, 4000 nits fixed or 10000 nits fixed with the Lumagen, I get different brightness of the image when I am using the Lumagen to pass HDR2020 from my AppleTV to the RS3100 for many streaming shows/movies. (obviously, material streaming at 10000 nits would not change with this Lumagen change)
> 
> When I use my Lumagen passing AppleTV HDR to my JVC in SDR2020 with the Lumagen performing DTM, I also get differences in overall scene brightness when I "Lock" it to nits. 10000 seems to give me the brightest overall image. As I said above, some movies, at 10000 nits fixed, end up with significant white crush or, simply, overly washed out white; I then set it to 4000 Auto.
> 
> The new Game of Thrones is so dark that I set up a Lumagen Bright HDR setting with gamma 2.2 and I calibrated my JVC using the JVC software for a quite good calibrated SDR2020 to go with it. I find that setting the HDR Src MaxCLL to 10000 nits for either my Lumagen Bright Gamma 2.2 HDR setting and JVC DTM Frame by Frame (Gamma fixed by JVC) setting gives me a punchy picture for highlights and overall brightness.
> 
> When I have Lumagen DTM off, is it performing any type of HDR to HDR tonemapping? Is it a forced tonemapping when the source information is lower nits and output at 10000 nits?


I observe this as well. I wonder if it might be that the display itself maps the different maxcll values differently. 

I see it with my oled where HDR2020 is the appropriate output (not SDR2020)


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> NLS always on, for those that use it, is also seamless now with aspect changes, so basically identical to what you see from the MadVR video with Interstellar. I would never recommend doing this (neither would Lumagen), but it is there for those that want to.


We all need to buy Patrick a beer 🍺 and Jim lol


----------



## woofer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> We all need to buy Patrick a beer 🍺 and Jim lol


----------



## audioguy

We re-watched Top Gun: Maverick with some friends this evening, and locked the image to 2:35. I actually enjoyed the movie as much this time as I did the first time and REALLY loved not having annoying and distracting AR changes. Whatever "distortion" was caused by, at times, displaying the "incorrect" aspect ratio, was more than outweighed by not having AR changes.

What a great movie!!!!!

What is the estimated release date of the firmware update that will provide instant AR changes?


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> I think those that were really hoping for faster aspect stuff are going to be elated with this update on all fronts.


I think this sentence says it all...Good job Patrick and Jim!


----------



## desray2k

audioguy said:


> What is the estimated release date of the firmware update that will provide instant AR changes?


Based on Jim's last update, likely going to be next week if the FPGA timing is good to go.


----------



## woofer

desray2k said:


> I think this sentence says it all...Good job Patrick and Jim!


Absolutely...
It works flawlessly!!


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> What is the estimated release date of the firmware update that will provide instant AR changes?


Patrick sent me the latest release today. There was one case Kris and I found (Kris stayed at our place last two nights and we were able to look a different content) that Patrick already fixed. So, baring any new discoveries we are in the "get a full speed FPGA" phase. This can take a day to up to a week. Then we will release as Beta on the update page.

I tested the latest release today and it was flawless as Kris mentioned. I still adamantly oppose aspect changes within a movie. However, I believe those of you who disagree will be thrilled with the instant aspect feature.

=== 

Kris beat me to the punch on noting the new options. Those with a Strato and using the Strato 2.35 OSD may like the new Use Graphics Flag = 2.40. Since most movies are 2.40, this is one less aspect change coming out of a 2.40 movie. Looks fine at 2.40 even through the Strato is sending 2.35 for the OSD.

=== 

Once this is released, Patrick will implement the desaturation. I have all the math done, and sent him the inner-loop C-Code and he can work his magic to integrate the DeSat in with the DTM. And as mentioned we are doing this mathematically correctly to preserve color when desaturating.


----------



## Clark Burk

Great to hear you already have a head start on the DTM and desaturation update. I’m looking forward to it.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Patrick will implement the desaturation. I have all the math done, and sent him the inner-loop C-Code and he can work his magic to integrate the DeSat in with the DTM. And as mentioned we are doing this mathematically correctly to preserve color when desaturating.


Wow...just wow...I'm speechless at how fast this is progressing. Well done! Can't wait for the release next week if all goes well.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> Those with a Strato and using the Strato 2.35 OSD may like the new Use Graphics Flag = 2.40. Since most movies are 2.40, this is one less aspect change coming out of a 2.40 movie. Looks fine at 2.40 even through the Strato is sending 2.35 for the OSD.


A must-have feature I didn’t even know I wanted, nice! Looking forward to this, thank you!


----------



## jrp

In the credit where credit is due department, I want to say that it is Patrick who is responsible for all the auto-aspect work. I only made requests and did testing. Patrick did all the unwinding of the older code that dealt with noisy sources, and tuned the instant auto-aspect for modern digital content.

I am constantly impressed with Patrick and what he can accomplish improving the Radiance Pro. Lumagen is extremely fortunate to have him. Thank you to those of you who have reached out with congratulations, but they go to Patrick, not me.


----------



## ajbriones

Watching the “making of“ extra features of Mad Max: Fury Road on Kaleidescape with my scope screen and it is the PERFECT use case for instant aspect switching (BTS and Interview footage in 1.78 intercut with 2.40 shots).

I guess I’ll be using this feature more than I initially thought I would when it comes out!


----------



## Dirk44

jrp said:


> Current subtitle software is now (up to) 6% for first down-click, and then10% for second one. These are adjusted down for aspects with less than 6%, or less than 10%, letter-box height below the active image.
> 
> These amounts are not currently programmable, but we are considering making them programmable since a couple people have requested it.


I'm to ask again, but can somebody, please explain me, as a analog native, how can i move the subtitle up, unfortunately I still have the "old" remote control...Thnak you in advance


----------



## audioguy

While I will lock AR changing movies to 2:35, the instant switching will still be a valuable tool. Watching a TV series that is one format and switching to a commercial which is another format will now be much faster - and other similar instances as well. 

I am blessed to own the two audio video product from companies that easily set the standard for on going product support and improvement - Lumagen and Trinnov. Unlike another very well known A/V company which purports itself to be a "Premium Product" company, Lumagen listens to its customers and responds with on-going product improvements. 

Love it!!


----------



## jrp

Dirk44 said:


> I'm to ask again, but can somebody, please explain me, as a analog native, how can i move the subtitle up, unfortunately I still have the "old" remote control...Thank you in advance


With the current "production candidate" release (091922), or later, if you want to see subtitles for an anamorphic movie, and if you are using auto-aspect with "sticky override" selected, you first disable auto-aspect (a button on the newer Radiance Pro remote), or manually select the aspect ratio. Then press down-arrow on your remote to move the bottom edge of the active image up by (up to) 6% so you can see the subtitles.

To go back to no subtitles, press the up-arrow key, or manually select a source aspect ratio.


----------



## jrp

ajbriones said:


> Watching the “making of“ extra features of Mad Max: Fury Road on Kaleidescape with my scope screen and it is the PERFECT use case for instant aspect switching (BTS and Interview footage in 1.78 intercut with 2.40 shots).
> 
> I guess I’ll be using this feature more than I initially thought I would when it comes out!


When I talk about not wanting to see aspect ratio changes, I am specifically talking about movies, or a normal comedy, drama, etc. TV show.

I agree that a documentary where the director is piecing together clips from different sources, all of which may natively have a different aspect ratio, that aspect ratio changes are important to maintain for the various clips. These changes then become a very reasonable use for instant aspect ratio changes with auto-aspect. You could of course select 16:9 for these to disable auto-aspect, and the aspect changes will maintain a constant width, and vary the height, as the director most likely saw on his mastering monitor. I am not against either of these options for a documentary type program.

In the end it is your theater and you get to choose your personal preference concerning aspect changes.


----------



## matty1137

Will the new auto instant or fast aspect ratio switching require an audio delay in our AVR/SSP?

I currently have my 4242 after my AVR, and no audio delay is required for lip sync with auto aspect ON.


----------



## jrp

matty1137 said:


> Will the new auto instant or fast aspect ratio switching require an audio delay in our AVR/SSP?
> 
> I currently have my 4242 after my AVR, and no audio delay is required for lip sync with auto aspect ON.


Good question.

Lip-sync is not affected in any way by auto-aspect (with any of the upcoming settings (instant, 0.5 seconds, 1.0 seconds, or 2 seconds) as we have it implemented. Said another way, audio is never delayed, and we did not need to change the video delay for the new auto-aspect.

I am a firm believer that the best video latency is lowest practical video latency. We maintained this premise in our auto-aspect work.

========

As long as we are on the topic:

For the optimal lip-sync, I use Genlock = "Normal 24" so that 24 Hertz content like movies use genlock, but leave Genlock off for faster switching and channel surfing for 50 and 60 Hertz content. Without Genlock I find 24 Hertz content lip-sync to vary enough to be noticeable. Having noticeable lip-sync variance is not acceptable to me and so I use Genlock.

As an example, in the Lumagen Demo Theater, I have the Radiance Pro Genlock = Normal 24, the Radiance Pro video delay set to 49 mS, and our Trinnov Altitude audio delay adding an additional (about) 38 mS to its intrinsic delay (about 72 mS as I recall). This works well with our JVC RS4500 in low-latency mode. Note that the distance from your speakers plays a part in lip-sync as well.

Because of my experience, I recommend Genlock be set to normal 24 to have the best viewing experience for movies. Then you can use the "Video Delay" feature in the Radiance Pro, in conjunction with the programmable audio delay in your audio processor, to tune lip sync. I was actually surprised that even a few mS change in lip-sync is noticeable.

Note that as I have previously mentioned, I use a guitar, or harp, string pluck to adjust lip-sync since I find these the best way to dial it in. As part of this, make sure your audio processor (like our Trinnov Altitude) has a constant audio delay independent of audio format. Also, if your projector has a low-latency mode, I recommend you select that as well.


----------



## Kris Deering

matty1137 said:


> Will the new auto instant or fast aspect ratio switching require an audio delay in our AVR/SSP?
> 
> I currently have my 4242 after my AVR, and no audio delay is required for lip sync with auto aspect ON.


Should have zero change


----------



## jrp

One other lip-sync comment concerning gaming:

We use the Radiance Pro extra video delay set to 49 mS for normal 24 and 60 Hertz content as described above. If you follow our lead here, and are a gamer, you can take advantage of all the Radiance Pro features, and use Genlock to reduce the video latency to about 3 mS to 6 mS with Genlock on in Game mode. Then for your game mode, set an input memory so the extra video delay in the Radiance Pro is 0 for gaming. This will give you excellent lip-sync alignment for gaming without the need to change the audio delay in your audio processor.


----------



## Erod

Once again, tremendous work by Patrick and Jim to keep improving our RPs further. 

Still, I have no idea why anyone would use a feature that does exactly the opposite of what the director's intent is, but to each his own.


----------



## jbrinegar

Erod said:


> Once again, tremendous work by Patrick and Jim to keep improving our RPs further.
> 
> Still, I have no idea why anyone would use a feature that does exactly the opposite of what the director's intent is, but to each his own.


Because some of us like to use it for non safe scope content like aqua man and ST ID. Even if it means going against directors intent, it’s my preferred compromise (instead of masking down to 16x9). 
So now you have some idea why.


----------



## Erod

jbrinegar said:


> Because some of us like to use it for non safe scope content like aqua man and ST ID. Even if it means going against directors intent, it’s my preferred compromise (instead of masking down to 16x9).
> So now you have some idea why.


Ok, but that just means the big dramatic scenes of the movie are smaller, and the quieter intimate scenes are bigger.

Seems counterintuitive to me. If I had a scope screen, I'd rather just play the whole movie in a masked scope image. 

But I love options and capabilities, and everyone to get the experience they want out of their theater rooms.


----------



## bearcat2002

For some reason I can’t get my RP to lock in at 2.35:1. When I press that button it expands to fill my 16:9 screen and maintains that ratio. What am I doing wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jbrinegar

Erod said:


> Ok, but that just means the big dramatic scenes of the movie are smaller, and the quieter intimate scenes are bigger.
> 
> Seems counterintuitive to me. If I had a scope screen, I'd rather just play the whole movie in a masked scope image.
> 
> But I love options and capabilities, and everyone to get the experience they want out of their theater rooms.


yes. I know that. We all know that. It’s a compromise


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

jrp said:


> Once this is released, Patrick will implement the desaturation. I have all the math done, and sent him the inner-loop C-Code and he can work his magic to integrate the DeSat in with the DTM. And as mentioned we are doing this mathematically correctly to preserve color when desaturating.


I’m just curious, how will this be different to what is currently implemented? Will this apply to those that are outputting SDR709.


----------



## audioguy

jbrinegar said:


> yes. I know that. We all know that. It’s a compromise


And FAR less annoying/distracting than back and forth A/R changes - which totally takes me out of the movie. Those AR changes may work well in a commercial theater with a 50 foot wide screen. But (for me) they most certainly do not work in a home cinema. And I could give a rip about "Director's Intent", or that there is some "distortion" when viewing a movie that is displayed larger than it was "supposed" to be displayed !!!


----------



## Kris Deering

bearcat2002 said:


> For some reason I can’t get my RP to lock in at 2.35:1. When I press that button it expands to fill my 16:9 screen and maintains that ratio. What am I doing wrong?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The aspect ratio buttons are for scope screen users. You have a 16x9 screen.


----------



## SJHT

Kris Deering said:


> The aspect ratio buttons are for scope screen users. You have a 16x9 screen.


If using a 16:9 screen with top masking per 



http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf



How would you lock in to 2.35 for movies that change aspect ratios? Disable auto aspect?


----------



## Kris Deering

SJHT said:


> If using a 16:9 screen with top masking per
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> How would you lock in to 2.35 for movies that change aspect ratios? Disable auto aspect?


I would think you’d have to setup another memory with the image masked as you are not changing the aspect you are just masking the shift.


----------



## HTTR17

Stupid question. Was trying to watch the world series on the fox app on an apple tv. The video and sound kept dropping for long stretches. Is there anyway this is a cable issue or something with the lumagen not syncing since it's 4k 60p? I assume it's the app on apple since it streams fine on other TV's.


----------



## bearcat2002

Kris Deering said:


> I would think you’d have to setup another memory with the image masked as you are not changing the aspect you are just masking the shift.


Yes. I have electric masking screen so I can make mine scope. I just want to be able to make it locked in at 2.35. I have to set it up as if I had a scope screen in a separate memory?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SJHT

Yeah, that my situation. When my electric masking drops, it really is like a scope screen. Wonder if settings on the projector need to change as well or can Lumagen handle for changing aspects. For normal 2.35 (or other non changing aspect) content, the picture is just moved to the bottom and the top masking changes as needed…


----------



## bearcat2002

My screen has electronic masking from top and bottom so the scope is centered. This is when I wish it wasn't such a huge learning curve. I'm sure it's cake for the guys like Kris who know it in and out. They just need to do away with this multiple aspect ratio crap.


----------



## SJHT

Amen. My primary screen is retractable, so the options are different. Although when you watch something like Top Gun Maverick, it seems best suited for 16:9 and watch as the director intended, but still want to understand the options.


----------



## Drexler

I have a question regarding aspect ratio control on the lumagen.

I have an NZ8 with a DCR lens shooting on a 2.40:1 screen. I have set the LRP to 2.40:1 aspect. However, if I zoom to exactly fit the width of the screen the picture overshoots above and below the screen. The native aspect after the lens should be 1.89 x 1.25 = 2.36:1, which will naturally overshoot since it is a taller aspect ratio than the screen. That means the LRP shouldnt use the full height of the panel, but it seems like it does. If I play around and change the aspect ratio setting in the LRP it only ever seems to impact the width not the height of the image. I can use the shrink function to fit the screen, but that seems to squeeze the image unaturally and is only valid for one aspect ratio. As soon as it switches it is off again. It doesnt seem like the correct method.
What am I missing?


----------



## Erod

jbrinegar said:


> yes. I know that. We all know that. It’s a compromise


I certainly didn't mean to sound condescending. I guess my real confusion is why MadVR was trying to do victory laps over this feature before Jim and Patrick decided to include it against their personal opinion on it.

So they did, and now it's here, so anybody can use it.

I was once reluctant to buy a Lumagen because if its cost. Now I love that i did, especially compared to the cost of the Envy, with the constance of the improvements ongoing. I consider it a great value now to be able to buy one and have it evolve over the course of years as opposed to one cycle like most components. 

So if this feature has been a sore spot for scope screen owners, then I'm glad that itch has been scratched.


----------



## jrp

bearcat2002 said:


> Yes. I have electric masking screen so I can make mine scope. I just want to be able to make it locked in at 2.35. I have to set it up as if I had a scope screen in a separate memory?


In the Global Menu under Video and then Features, select Lbox Control as "Set Globally Off." Then press OK to have the Pro make the needed changes to the settings.

If you want to use the Auto Aspect feature, in the Input Menu under Options/Aspect Setup/Auto Aspect, enable it and make sure Letterbox Control is set to Off.

If you make a change to auto aspect, you can select the scope of the change to include All inputs by pressing OK after completing changes and selecting All for inputs, and then again for All memories by pressing OK again and selecting All, and then pressing OK to accept the changes.

Save your changes.


----------



## dlinsley

Drexler said:


> I have a question regarding aspect ratio control on the lumagen.
> 
> I have an NZ8 with a DCR lens shooting on a 2.40:1 screen. I have set the LRP to 2.40:1 aspect. However, if I zoom to exactly fit the width of the screen the picture overshoots above and below the screen. The native aspect after the lens should be 1.89 x 1.25 = 2.36:1, which will naturally overshoot since it is a taller aspect ratio than the screen. That means the LRP shouldnt use the full height of the panel, but it seems like it does. If I play around and change the aspect ratio setting in the LRP it only ever seems to impact the width not the height of the image. I can use the shrink function to fit the screen, but that seems to squeeze the image unaturally and is only valid for one aspect ratio. As soon as it switches it is off again. It doesnt seem like the correct method.
> What am I missing?


Given the overshoot you can either try tilting the DCR lens (it changes how much it squeezes a little, but you may end up with a change in CA that you can adjust out in the JVC Pixel Alignment menu) or use the Masking in the Radiance per Tech Tip 7


----------



## Kris Deering

bearcat2002 said:


> My screen has electronic masking from top and bottom so the scope is centered. This is when I wish it wasn't such a huge learning curve. I'm sure it's cake for the guys like Kris who know it in and out. They just need to do away with this multiple aspect ratio crap.


For this kind of situation I would setup Memory B as a scope screen with the image appropriately placed in the frame (center for you, bottom for others). Then you could easily lock scope for movies like Top Gun and not have to worry about the changing aspect. Reach out if this is something you need help with.


----------



## by96

Quick question. Am I correct in my understanding that neither the Panny 820 or ATV will allow you to set to source resolution to allow the LRP to do the upscaling? I know I can change the resolution output (on the Panny, 1080p for regular blu-rays and 4K for UHD discs) but I can't find a way to always use native resolution. If I am correct, anyone know why? 

I am thrilled my forthcoming Zappiti will allow native resolution!


----------



## bferbrache

by96 said:


> Quick question. Am I correct in my understanding that neither the Panny 820 or ATV will allow you to set to source resolution to allow the LRP to do the upscaling? I know I can change the resolution output (on the Panny, 1080p for regular blu-rays and 4K for UHD discs) but I can't find a way to always use native resolution. If I am correct, anyone know why?
> 
> I am thrilled my forthcoming Zappiti will allow native resolution!











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so. ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling...




www.avsforum.com





This post might be helpful


----------



## by96

bferbrache said:


> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> My setup with ATV works as a charm without need of restarts or so. ATV: 4K SDR - match frame rate and resolution Memory 1A for all 4k content including menus and so forth Memory 1B: Have set the EDID to 1080 so when watching HD material I force ATV to send only 1080 and Lumagen do the scaling...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This post might be helpful


Thanks! Very helpful.


----------



## bobof

by96 said:


> Quick question. Am I correct in my understanding that neither the Panny 820 or ATV will allow you to set to source resolution to allow the LRP to do the upscaling? I know I can change the resolution output (on the Panny, 1080p for regular blu-rays and 4K for UHD discs) but I can't find a way to always use native resolution. If I am correct, anyone know why?
> 
> I am thrilled my forthcoming Zappiti will allow native resolution!


It's certainly the case on the AppleTV, and wouldn't surprise me about the Panasonic, as they don't even support native frame rate on internet players, which is a far greater sin. 

Sony, Oppo and the Oppo clones all do support native resolution if I recall.

It's just not seen as a very important feature for the mass market, the AppleTV only works as well as it does for rate switching owing to some quite sustained complaints from the community about issues with integer Vs fractional rates. Native resolution has no chance of ever happening on that product.


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I’m just curious, how will this be different to what is currently implemented? Will this apply to those that are outputting SDR709.


Desaturation does not apply to SDR content. It applies only to HDR content using the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM).

The base DTM algorithm is not changing when we get the new desaturation in the software. However, because there will be more desaturation available than current software, the Dynamic Pad (Dyn Pad) will be reduced to some degree since desaturation will take care of the over-saturated content clipping.

It is still important to have some Dyn Pad since you do _not_ want desaturation to be the only way to deal with scenes that get a lot brighter as the scene progresses. This is because with a Pad the transfer function is not changed until desaturation kicks in on over-saturated colors. Desaturation changes the transfer function for the oversaturated content and so is therefore a trade-off between allowing extra headroom, and using desaturation to reduce content intensity to eliminate the clipping.

The new Radiance Pro DTM desaturation will be color-preserving as it should be to match studio reference standards. I believe it will definitely improve the handful of scenes that currently clip the over-saturated colors. However, note that for the vast majority of scenes that do not require desaturation, the new desaturation changes will not affect the image at all.

[EDIT]
Concerning your Rec709 output question: This is a good question. Currently conversion to 709 happens after DTM and so Rec709 output would clip colors outside the 709 Gamut. The desaturation would help on very bright colors, but not be a complete fix for Rec709 projectors/TVs since DTM is in the Rec 2020 colorspace.

Sitting here thinking about the math, it would be possible to add a mode that optimizes Rec709 output desaturation for HDR Rec 2020 source. However, it would be a lot of gates and a lot of work to add this. I believe only a very small percentage of clients use Rec709 output.

I will add it to the under consideration list. However, I doubt it will rise to the top of the priority list. I will say you have peaked my interest and I will consider this further.


----------



## Javs

jrp said:


> Desaturation does not apply to SDR content. It applies only to HDR content using the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM).
> 
> The base DTM algorithm is not changing when we get the new desaturation in the software. However, because there will be more desaturation available than current software, the Dynamic Pad (Dyn Pad) will be reduced to some degree since desaturation will take care of the over-saturated content clipping.
> 
> It is still important to have some Dyn Pad since you do _not_ want desaturation to be the only way to deal with scenes that get a lot brighter as the scene progresses. This is because with a Pad the transfer function is not changed until desaturation kicks in on over-saturated colors. Desaturation changes the transfer function for the oversaturated content and so is therefore a trade-off between allowing extra headroom, and using desaturation to reduce content intensity to eliminate the clipping.
> 
> The new Radiance Pro DTM desaturation will be color-preserving as it should be to match studio reference standards. I believe it will definitely improve the handful of scenes that currently clip the over-saturated colors. However, note that for the vast majority of scenes that do not require desaturation, the new desaturation changes will not affect the image at all.
> 
> [EDIT]
> Concerning your Rec709 output question: This is a good question. Currently conversion to 709 happens after DTM and so Rec709 output would clip colors outside the 709 Gamut. The desaturation would help on very bright colors, but not be a complete fix for Rec709 projectors/TVs since DTM is in the Rec 2020 colorspace.
> 
> Sitting here thinking about the math, it would be possible to add a mode that optimizes Rec709 output desaturation for HDR Rec 2020 source. However, it would be a lot of gates and a lot of work to add this. I believe only a very small percentage of clients use Rec709 output.
> 
> I will add it to the under consideration list. However, I doubt it will rise to the top of the priority list. I will say you have peaked my interest and I will consider this further.


Ive mentioned this 709 gamut thing to you before also, but the theory is not just with 709 it also by default applies to P3 gamut and anything the user is in smaller than BT2020, in fact, it would apply to every single user as nearly nobody has 100% of BT2020 capable so they are using a LUT which is already compressing colours to a smaller gamut. Thats why I had Mathias add gamut rolloff to MadVR and that works extremely well with any destination colour gamut, its quite new and not in the Envy yet, but its nearly bulletproof.

Im interested to test your math to see if it works, but since you are saying you doubt it will work for smaller gamuts I wonder if its even enough, I suspect you need to be applying a gamut rolloff also as I really feel all the stuff I found is not really so simple to fix and needs to be looked at from a couple angles, I will be able to show you content that clips out of the waveform after DTM is applied in lower gamuts. DTM itself and the settings you use will clip more or less of the gamut because of compression, so your math is going to need to be pretty dynamic in nature. I would think an actual check of RGB values just before video output would reveal if you have illegal pixles for the destination gamut and then desat until they are no longer illegal, but as you say that would probably use a lot of gates.


----------



## PeterLarsson

After installation of the *Production candidate 091922 *the auto aspect plays some game with me. I have Zappiti, and all the menus are 2.35 and when starting a movie with for example 1.85/1.78 it is still stick to 2.35 even if I check with the "ok" button and the 2nd page, it says 2.35. If I then stop the movie and restart, the correct aspect comes like for example 1.85/1.78. 

This behavior has now been there for a while and I have never experienced this before the latest firmware, a bug or something I have missed out?


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> After installation of the *Production candidate 091922 *the auto aspect plays some game with me. I have Zappiti, and all the menus are 2.35 and when starting a movie with for example 1.85/1.78 it is still stick to 2.35 even if I check with the "ok" button and the 2nd page, it says 2.35. If I then stop the movie and restart, the correct aspect comes like for example 1.85/1.78.
> 
> This behavior has now been there for a while and I have never experienced this before the latest firmware, a bug or something I have missed out?


One comment would be to make sure you don't have the Lumagen menu or info pages on screen during detection, it blocks some aspect of the detection from happening.


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> One comment would be to make sure you don't have the Lumagen menu or info pages on screen during detection, it blocks some aspect of the detection from happening.


Presumably if this happens, when the Lumagen menu or info page is removed the auto-aspect would change aspect ratio to the correct one?


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> One comment would be to make sure you don't have the Lumagen menu or info pages on screen during detection, it blocks some aspect of the detection from happening.


No I have not. After a while though when nothing happens with the aspect I press ok and get the information that input i 2.35 as well. The I stop the movie and restart and then correct aspect is identified.


----------



## giomania

by96 said:


> Quick question. Am I correct in my understanding that neither the Panny 820 or ATV will allow you to set to source resolution to allow the LRP to do the upscaling? I know I can change the resolution output (on the Panny, 1080p for regular blu-rays and 4K for UHD discs) but I can't find a way to always use native resolution. If I am correct, anyone know why?
> 
> I am thrilled my forthcoming Zappiti will allow native resolution!


One workaround is to use one of the Lumagen Radiance Pro input memories to set the input limit to 1080p (via EDID sent to the source device), so the source device will only send 1080p max, and the Lumagen can perform the upscaling to 4K. This also works great for streaming devices like the ATV and Shield, etc. since they do not have source direct output either. Please note this takes essentially uses two memories, because you need to switch between them. I use Mem A for regular use, and Mem B for the 1080p limit.

I hope this helps.

Mark


----------



## jqmn

jrp said:


> Desaturation does not apply to SDR content. It applies only to HDR content using the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM).
> 
> The base DTM algorithm is not changing when we get the new desaturation in the software. However, because there will be more desaturation available than current software, the Dynamic Pad (Dyn Pad) will be reduced to some degree since desaturation will take care of the over-saturated content clipping.


For HDR DTM does SDRP3 output use the D65 white point or the DCI D63 white point and does it and require the DCI 2.6 or is 2.4 the correct sink side expected gamma setting? While I understand why a 3DLUT may be beneficial overall why does Lumagen recommend/require a 3DLUT when using SDRP3 vs SDRBT2020? Will the new desaturation changes apply to SDRP3 output? Thank-you.


----------



## alv

giomania said:


> One workaround is to use one of the Lumagen Radiance Pro input memories to set the input limit to 1080p (via EDID sent to the source device), so the source device will only send 1080p max, and the Lumagen can perform the upscaling to 4K. This also works great for streaming devices like the ATV and Shield, etc. since they do not have source direct output either. Please note this takes essentially uses two memories, because you need to switch between them. I use Mem A for regular use, and Mem B for the 1080p limit.


I read this as it forces ATV to output 1080p even if the output is set at 4K? Then I copy my main memory, paste it to a new one and edit it to accept only 1080p? Haven't done that, so can someone give me the menu sequence? Thanks in advance.


----------



## bferbrache

alv said:


> I read this as it forces ATV to output 1080p even if the output is set at 4K? Then I copy my main memory, paste it to a new one and edit it to accept only 1080p? Haven't done that, so can someone give me the menu sequence? Thanks in advance.











New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


For some reason I can’t get my RP to lock in at 2.35:1. When I press that button it expands to fill my 16:9 screen and maintains that ratio. What am I doing wrong? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The aspect ratio buttons are for scope screen users. You have a 16x9 screen.




www.avsforum.com





This should help


----------



## bferbrache

New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


Hello Jim, at first thank you for including the DTM from me also. I have a very deeply 20" curved V6 screen 150" wide and really like the old 70 mm movies etc. I know its a bit early for X was wishes, but can I ask you again: if its possible to include WARPING into the Pro ? sometimes ? Only...




www.avsforum.com





details here


----------



## by96

giomania said:


> One workaround is to use one of the Lumagen Radiance Pro input memories to set the input limit to 1080p (via EDID sent to the source device), so the source device will only send 1080p max, and the Lumagen can perform the upscaling to 4K. This also works great for streaming devices like the ATV and Shield, etc. since they do not have source direct output either. Please note this takes essentially uses two memories, because you need to switch between them. I use Mem A for regular use, and Mem B for the 1080p limit.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Mark


Thank!! I did set it up this way last night and it seemed to work very well. Just need to remember to switch memory! Thanks again!!


----------



## graticular

by96 said:


> Thank!! I did set it up this way last night and it seemed to work very well. Just need to remember to switch memory! Thanks again!!


The only thing I find you have to be careful about was that if you have the memory set to 1080p max when you start what should be a 4K Netflix series Netflix will not offer you the 4K version. I then found I had to get out of Netflix, switch to the other memory, then return to Netflix and hope it picks up your new-found 4K ability!


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> Presumably if this happens, when the Lumagen menu or info page is removed the auto-aspect would change aspect ratio to the correct one?


I think so, yes.


----------



## bferbrache

graticular said:


> The only thing I find you have to be careful about was that if you have the memory set to 1080p max when you start what should be a 4K Netflix series Netflix will not offer you the 4K version. I then found I had to get out of Netflix, switch to the other memory, then return to Netflix and hope it picks up your new-found 4K ability!


 You make a good point - if you switch the apple tv from 4K to 1080p or the other way using the Lumagen EDID then you need to close any open apps and reopen them before watching in the new resolution. It seems to be pretty flawless for me and always shows the correct available resolution on Netflix.


----------



## alv

My question about the ATV and 1080P involved getting the exact menu commands. I have not done this before and going through the menus is not so straightforward. If someone can post the way, I suspect that will help others, otherwise I can contact Lumagen directly.


----------



## bferbrache

alv said:


> My question about the ATV and 1080P involved getting the exact menu commands. I have not done this before and going through the menus is not so straightforward. If someone can post the way, I suspect that will help others, otherwise I can contact Lumagen directly.


I use mem A for 4K and mem B for 1080p. 

If you want to do it the same way you switch your lumagen Apple Tv input to mem B. 

Then press the menu button and choose 
Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p.

You can test it works correctly (on apple TV switch between mem A and mem B and the apple TV will output 4K and 1080p) before saving, if you are happy with it then menu - save - save

Hope this will help, you can't really go wrong, if you are unsure then switch the radiance off and on and as long as you don't save anything then your current settings will not be changed.

Brian


----------



## Hawks07

bferbrache said:


> I use mem A for 4K and mem B for 1080p.
> 
> If you want to do it the same way you switch your lumagen Apple Tv input to mem B.
> 
> Then press the menu button and choose
> Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p.
> 
> You can test it works correctly (on apple TV switch between mem A and mem B and the apple TV will output 4K and 1080p) before saving, if you are happy with it then menu - save - save
> 
> Hope this will help, you can't really go wrong, if you are unsure then switch the radiance off and on and as long as you don't save anything then your current settings will not be changed.
> 
> Brian


I need to try this myself this week. How much improvement is there to have the Apple Tv only send 1080p?


----------



## bferbrache

Hawks07 said:


> I need to try this myself this week. How much improvement is there to have the Apple Tv only send 1080p?


It is a very simple switch to make and you can see for yourself, nothing to lose really!

I prefer the image to be upscaled by the Radiance - you might prefer to let the Apple TV do it, I can't imagine going back to everything being output at 4K by the Apple TV though.

If you have a logitech harmony elite remote then you can set it up to start the Apple TV with an output in 4K or 1080p. I set up a screen shortcut on the remote to switch between the 2 options which the Apple TV does on the fly in a few seconds. 

Brian


----------



## Naiera

Not sure why you guys are bothering with all this. The Apple TV does a great job upscaling.


----------



## appelz

Eh, there are min-maxers in every hobby. In general, I find their efforts laudable, and often educational. The ideas are rarely a best practice, especially for most end-users who want to pick up the remote and watch their content, but when those ideas match up with clever automation, everyone wins.


----------



## giomania

It’s true that some users may not want to mess with it, and automatic switching via a remote control macro does make it much easier. I just wanted to give provide the tip to those who want their LRP to upscale vice the streaming device. 

The real challenge is finding out what is the native content resolution, which is not always available information in a streaming app. 

If anyone knows how to find out that information reliably via searching the internet, please chime in.

Mark


----------



## bobof

giomania said:


> It’s true that some users may not want to mess with it, and automatic switching via a remote control macro does make it much easier. I just wanted to give provide the tip to those who want their LRP to upscale vice the streaming device.
> 
> The real challenge is finding out what is the native content resolution, which is not always available information in a streaming app.
> 
> If anyone knows how to find out that information reliably via searching the internet, please chime in.
> 
> Mark


On the AppleTV if you want to find out, you can enable the devloper HUD, and it will tell you on an ugly OSD overlay what the native stream is. It's a bit annoying to enable and disable, though.


----------



## alv

bferbrache said:


> If you want to do it the same way you switch your lumagen Apple Tv input to mem B.
> 
> Then press the menu button and choose
> Input-Options-Hdmi Setup-Video EDID set Video Limit to 1080p.
> 
> You can test it works correctly (on apple TV switch between mem A and mem B and the apple TV will output 4K and 1080p) before saving, if you are happy with it then menu - save - save
> 
> Hope this will help, you can't really go wrong, if you are unsure then switch the radiance off and on and as long as you don't save anything then your current settings will not be changed.


Thanks. That solves half my problem. I can copy the current memory. How do I "paste" that do the new one? Then I can edit as suggested.


----------



## Naiera

giomania said:


> The real challenge is finding out what is the native content resolution, which is not always available information in a streaming app.


Hulu, ATV+, Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max, iTunes rentals, Vudu, Prime, etc. all tell you if it's UHD.

The only thing that could get tricky is figuring out if it's 23.976Hz, 24.000Hz or 50Hz (25 fps). Even Hulu has 50Hz content, even though it's not available in any PAL territory. Of course, the Apple TV will always match frequency, if the app supports it.


----------



## woofer

bobof said:


> On the AppleTV if you want to find out, you can enable the devloper HUD, and it will tell you on an ugly OSD overlay what the native stream is. It's a bit annoying to enable and disable, though.


Where is this option on the ATV ...thanks..


----------



## Woof Woof

woofer said:


> Where is this option on the ATV ...thanks..


It's a little complicated. You need to download Xcode SDK which may require you to log in as a Developer, install the SDK and then find the Apple TV, then enable developer mode. I did it for a while but it stopped working one day (could be that I didn't update the Xcode)









How to Unlock Detailed Streaming Statistics on the Apple TV


Things might not look amazing even with an Apple TV 4K and a great television. Instead of counting pixels to make sure you’re receiving the best quality stream, you can find streaming statistics behind the developer menu.




www.howtogeek.com


----------



## bferbrache

alv said:


> Thanks. That solves half my problem. I can copy the current memory. How do I "paste" that do the new one? Then I can edit as suggested.


No problem, I use input 2 for my apple TV. To copy from input 2 mem A to input 2 mem B you press menu, across to the right and down to the bottom is copy, go into this option and choose the memory you want to copy, for me this was input 2, mem A. Choose the input and memory you want to copy to, for me this was input 2, mem B. Press ok to make the copy and exit the menu, you can then modify the EDID restrictions on mem B as described before.

The Lumagen will not remember these changes unless you save them. If you make the changes and are happy with them then menu, save, save, OK to make these changes permanent.

Brian


----------



## bobof

Woof Woof said:


> It's a little complicated. You need to download Xcode SDK which may require you to log in as a Developer, install the SDK and then find the Apple TV, then enable developer mode. I did it for a while but it stopped working one day (could be that I didn't update the Xcode)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Unlock Detailed Streaming Statistics on the Apple TV
> 
> 
> Things might not look amazing even with an Apple TV 4K and a great television. Instead of counting pixels to make sure you’re receiving the best quality stream, you can find streaming statistics behind the developer menu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.howtogeek.com


It breaks I think on many updates and has to be re-enabled, and if you update to beta versions you then need beta xcode, etc. 

I've used the functionality for other reasons, but not for sniffing the content resolution. With many players you don't need to because the player gives indication in the UI of HD / UHD / HDR, or the player has known limitations (eg NowTV in UK is 1080p max).

Note that you have to be in 4K for this to work. If you are in 1080p, I don't think you'll ever see it show 4K even if the title is available in 4K (and also the UIs for players won't indicate availability of 4K).

But to be honest, I never find myself being bothered enough by this to make the resolution change myself; having to do such things manually is such a turnoff for me (hence why all auto-aspect automated, etc).


----------



## bobof

PeterLarsson said:


> No I have not. After a while though when nothing happens with the aspect I press ok and get the information that input i 2.35 as well. The I stop the movie and restart and then correct aspect is identified.


Given that the *091922* update was supposed to fix some issues with auto aspect not detecting occasionally, I think your best bet is to discuss with Lumagen support, as maybe you've found some other cases they didn't fix.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> Once this is released, Patrick will implement the desaturation. I have all the math done, and sent him the inner-loop C-Code and he can work his magic to integrate the DeSat in with the DTM. And as mentioned we are doing this mathematically correctly to preserve color when desaturating.


just out of curiosity: How does such math look like? (it's fascinating how some can so easily handle such math, I can't... )


----------



## chasiliff

Will the LRP pass HDR10+ if I am not using the LRP to perform DTM?


----------



## Naiera

Woof Woof said:


> I did it for a while but it stopped working one day (could be that I didn't update the Xcode)


I've found that the connection can be a bit finicky. Updating the Apple TV to beta firmware also makes Xcode stop working. It seemed like it was more stable the last time I did this though, when I got data for that thread about 4K SDR and such on streaming services.


----------



## Naiera

bobof said:


> Note that you have to be in 4K for this to work. If you are in 1080p, I don't think you'll ever see it show 4K even if the title is available in 4K (and also the UIs for players won't indicate availability of 4K).


That depends on the streaming service. Netflix adapts while on Disney+ you can at least see if 4K, HDR and such is available under Details.


----------



## Kris Deering

chasiliff said:


> Will the LRP pass HDR10+ if I am not using the LRP to perform DTM?


No


----------



## jrp

chasiliff said:


> Will the LRP pass HDR10+ if I am not using the LRP to perform DTM?


The Radiance Pro does not support HDR10+ at this time. It is on our "under consideration" list, but at this time we have no plans to implement it. With the upcoming desaturation work it will be even less interesting to do so.

HDR10+ provides a per-scene MaxCLL. However, given providers and streamers cannot even get the single HDR10 MaxCLL right, I am not hopeful the information provided will be accurate. The Radiance Pro is good at calculating the scene MaxCLL and adapting to brightness changes within scenes. With the addition of the upcoming desaturation logic, the Radiance Pro will be able to reduce the Dynamic Pad (Dyn Pad), and balance the Dyn Pad amount with desaturation. I think the combination should eliminate the advantage of the HDR10+ scene MaxCLL. However, once we have the new desaturation we plan to consider HDR10+ and if it provides any advantage.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> The Radiance Pro does not support HDR10+ at this time. It is on our "under consideration" list, but at this time we have no plans to implement it. With the upcoming desaturation work it will be even less interesting to do so.
> 
> HDR10+ provides a per-scene MaxCLL. However, given providers and streamers cannot even get the single HDR10 MaxCLL right, I am not hopeful the information provided will be accurate. The Radiance Pro is good at calculating the scene MaxCLL and adapting to brightness changes within scenes. With the addition of the upcoming desaturation logic, the Radiance Pro will be able to reduce the Dynamic Pad (Dyn Pad), and balance the Dyn Pad amount with desaturation. I think the combination should eliminate the advantage of the HDR10+ scene MaxCLL. However, once we have the new desaturation we plan to consider HDR10+ and if it provides any advantage.


Since JVC NZ projectors and the new Apple TV support HDR10+ now it would be definitely interesting to hear your findings!


----------



## PeterLarsson

bobof said:


> Given that the *091922* update was supposed to fix some issues with auto aspect not detecting occasionally, I think your best bet is to discuss with Lumagen support, as maybe you've found some other cases they didn't fix.


Yes, thanks! I will mail Lumagen support.


----------



## jrp

Peter emailed me. However, given we are about to release a major rewrite of auto aspect I asked him to test again after the instant auto aspect Beta is released.

I suspect (or at least hope) the issue he is seeing with the Zappiti (likely a Zappiti black level in the letterbox bars thing) is resolved by the upcoming Beta.

==== 

We have found a couple corner cases Pat is working on for instant auto aspect. We believe we will release the instant auto aspect Beta later this week.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> With the addition of the upcoming desaturation logic, the Radiance Pro will be able to reduce the Dynamic Pad (Dyn Pad), and balance the Dyn Pad amount with desaturation.


Jim, any ETA for the upcoming beta firmware release this week? Excited over the features discussed in the last couple of days... Can't wait to test it out.


----------



## Woof Woof

This is weird - I just re-enabled the Developer Overlay on my AppleTV and I noticed that Amazon Prime Australia's latest showings are displaying SDR (according to the overlay) even though the program info on the title page says HDR. I have tested this on the new LotR series episode 1 and also Grand Tour which I am sure used to show in HDR. Has anyone else tested this?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

desray2k said:


> Jim, any ETA for the upcoming beta firmware release this week? Excited over the features discussed in the last couple of days... Can't wait to test it out.


Hopefully this week.


----------



## bobof

Woof Woof said:


> This is weird - I just re-enabled the Developer Overlay on my AppleTV and I noticed that Amazon Prime Australia's latest showings are displaying SDR (according to the overlay) even though the program info on the title page says HDR. I have tested this on the new LotR series episode 1 and also Grand Tour which I am sure used to show in HDR. Has anyone else tested this?


What does the Lumagen say about the incoming HDMI signal?


----------



## alv

bferbrache said:


> No problem, I use input 2 for my apple TV. To copy from input 2 mem A to input 2 mem B you press menu, across to the right and down to the bottom is copy, go into this option and choose the memory you want to copy, for me this was input 2, mem A. Choose the input and memory you want to copy to, for me this was input 2, mem B. Press ok to make the copy and exit the menu, you can then modify the EDID restrictions on mem B as described before.


Thanks. I now have this working. One additional thing. Unless I did something wrong, you have to turn on match frame rate in ATV for both 1080P and 4K.


----------



## Woof Woof

bobof said:


> What does the Lumagen say about the incoming HDMI signal?


Rec 709 and outputs as Rec 709 as reported by the projector


----------



## bferbrache

alv said:


> Thanks. I now have this working. One additional thing. Unless I did something wrong, you have to turn on match frame rate in ATV for both 1080P and 4K.


Glad you are sorted, you need to set the match frame rate once, the apple tv remembers after that


----------



## jrp

Updated Auto Aspect almost ready...

I found one minor corner case in a test release yesterday. This was with content from (circa.) 1942. Pat fixed it and is doing another round of FPGA synthesis. Should have the Beta posted today (our Thursday) or tomorrow (our Friday).

I have a couple setup comments for the new instant aspect:

Unless you disagree with my belief that aspect changes on an anamorphic screen during content are totally dumb, I recommend the new 0.5 second setting for auto-aspect. This gives very snappy auto-aspect changes for the beginning and end of content. I actually watched some Top Gun: Maverick aspect changes and even at 0.5 seconds they looked good. At 0.5 seconds auto-aspect looks at either 12 frames (24 Hertz), 25 frames (50 Hertz), or 30 frames (60 Hertz), to have a new aspect ratio before changing. In general the instant does a perfect job of detection, but if there are issues in the content (noise, content that "looks" like a different aspect due to black at top and bottom of active raster), requiring many frames of consistent change would help. No known cases of this in testing current test releases though. So, maybe not needed at all.

That said, other than the one minor corner case I found yesterday that has already be resolved, instant auto aspect works great. I am not seeing miss-detects on any content I have looked at from our Strato, Oppo 203, Roku, or DirecTV. So, if you do want changes within a movie, I believe you will be very happy with the updated version of auto-aspect.

Feel free to put the instant auto aspect speed (or any of the selected speed settings) to the test and let us know the source device, content name, and timestamp, if you find an issue.

You will select the auto-aspect speed in the Other->Aspect-Setup->Options sub-menu. Default will be 0.5 seconds.

You will be able to enable the OSD report of auto-aspect changes in the same menu. Default will be off.

If you own a Kaleidescape Strato, I recommend using the "report content type Meta Data" setting in the Strato advanced setup menu. Then enable use graphics flag in the Radiance Pro Auto Aspect. If you use the 2.35 OSD aspect ratio setting, then in the Radiance Pro auto-aspect setup menu, I recommend you set the aspect ratio selected by the graphics flag (sent by Strato when showing it is displaying its OSD) to 2.40 (even through the Strato setting is at 2.35). The OSD looks great with 2.40 selected, and since most movies are 2.40, this eliminates the aspect change going into a 2.40 movie, or coming back to the OSD. This is a small thing since the Strato takes some time to start the movie and to go back to the OSD, but it looks better visually to not see the quick 2.40 to 2.35 change going back to the OSD.

Save your changes.


----------



## Craig Peer

jrp said:


> Updated Auto Aspect almost ready...
> 
> I found one minor corner case in a test release yesterday. *This was with content from (circa.) 1942.* Pat fixed it and is doing another round of FPGA synthesis. Should have the Beta posted today (our Thursday) or tomorrow (our Friday).
> 
> I have a couple setup comments for the new instant aspect:
> 
> Unless you disagree with my belief that aspect changes on an anamorphic screen during content are totally dumb, I recommend the new 0.5 second setting for auto-aspect. This gives very snappy auto-aspect changes for the beginning and end of content. I actually watched some Top Gun: Maverick aspect changes and even at 0.5 seconds they looked good. At 0.5 seconds auto-aspect looks at either 12 frames (24 Hertz), 25 frames (50 Hertz), or 30 frames (60 Hertz), to have a new aspect ratio before changing. In general the instant does a perfect job of detection, but if there are issues in the content (noise, content that "looks" like a different aspect due to black at top and bottom of active raster), requiring many frames of consistent change would help. No known cases of this in testing current test releases though. So, maybe not needed at all.
> 
> That said, other than the one minor corner case I found yesterday that has already be resolved, instant auto aspect works great. I am not seeing miss-detects on any content I have looked at from our Strato, Oppo 203, Roku, or DirecTV. So, if you do want changes within a movie, I believe you will be very happy with the updated version of auto-aspect.
> 
> Feel free to put the instant auto aspect speed (or any of the selected speed settings) to the test and let us know the source device, content name, and timestamp, if you find an issue.
> 
> You will select the auto-aspect speed in the Other->Aspect-Setup->Options sub-menu. Default will be 0.5 seconds.
> 
> You will be able to enable the OSD report of auto-aspect changes in the same menu. Default will be off.
> 
> If you own a Kaleidescape Strato, I recommend using the "report content type Meta Data" setting in the Strato advanced setup menu. Then enable use graphics flag in the Radiance Pro Auto Aspect. If you use the 2.35 OSD aspect ratio setting, then in the Radiance Pro auto-aspect setup menu, I recommend you set the aspect ratio selected by the graphics flag (sent by Strato when showing it is displaying its OSD) to 2.40 (even through the Strato setting is at 2.35). The OSD looks great with 2.40 selected, and since most movies are 2.40, this eliminates the aspect change going into a 2.40 movie, or coming back to the OSD. This is a small thing since the Strato takes some time to start the movie and to go back to the OSD, but it looks better visually to not see the quick 2.40 to 2.35 change going back to the OSD.
> 
> Save your changes.


I have content from 1942, so thank you for that. Can't wait for this firmware update.


----------



## [email protected]

jrp said:


> Updated Auto Aspect almost ready...
> 
> I found one minor corner case in a test release yesterday. This was with content from (circa.) 1942. Pat fixed it and is doing another round of FPGA synthesis. Should have the Beta posted today (our Thursday) or tomorrow (our Friday).


seeing is believing. How about posting a nice demo video in Youtube to show the potential customers that LRP can do instant auto aspect change?


----------



## desray2k

[email protected] said:


> seeing is believing. How about posting a nice demo video in Youtube to show the potential customers that LRP can do instant auto aspect change?


I'm pretty sure some members here will post it to showcase this new feature.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Updated Auto Aspect almost ready...
> 
> I found one minor corner case in a test release yesterday. This was with content from (circa.) 1942. Pat fixed it and is doing another round of FPGA synthesis. Should have the Beta posted today (our Thursday) or tomorrow (our Friday).
> 
> I have a couple setup comments for the new instant aspect:
> 
> Unless you disagree with my belief that aspect changes on an anamorphic screen during content are totally dumb, I recommend the new 0.5 second setting for auto-aspect. This gives very snappy auto-aspect changes for the beginning and end of content. I actually watched some Top Gun: Maverick aspect changes and even at 0.5 seconds they looked good. At 0.5 seconds auto-aspect looks at either 12 frames (24 Hertz), 25 frames (50 Hertz), or 30 frames (60 Hertz), to have a new aspect ratio before changing. In general the instant does a perfect job of detection, but if there are issues in the content (noise, content that "looks" like a different aspect due to black at top and bottom of active raster), requiring many frames of consistent change would help. No known cases of this in testing current test releases though. So, maybe not needed at all.
> 
> That said, other than the one minor corner case I found yesterday that has already be resolved, instant auto aspect works great. I am not seeing miss-detects on any content I have looked at from our Strato, Oppo 203, Roku, or DirecTV. So, if you do want changes within a movie, I believe you will be very happy with the updated version of auto-aspect.
> 
> Feel free to put the instant auto aspect speed (or any of the selected speed settings) to the test and let us know the source device, content name, and timestamp, if you find an issue.
> 
> You will select the auto-aspect speed in the Other->Aspect-Setup->Options sub-menu. Default will be 0.5 seconds.
> 
> You will be able to enable the OSD report of auto-aspect changes in the same menu. Default will be off.
> 
> If you own a Kaleidescape Strato, I recommend using the "report content type Meta Data" setting in the Strato advanced setup menu. Then enable use graphics flag in the Radiance Pro Auto Aspect. If you use the 2.35 OSD aspect ratio setting, then in the Radiance Pro auto-aspect setup menu, I recommend you set the aspect ratio selected by the graphics flag (sent by Strato when showing it is displaying its OSD) to 2.40 (even through the Strato setting is at 2.35). The OSD looks great with 2.40 selected, and since most movies are 2.40, this eliminates the aspect change going into a 2.40 movie, or coming back to the OSD. This is a small thing since the Strato takes some time to start the movie and to go back to the OSD, but it looks better visually to not see the quick 2.40 to 2.35 change going back to the OSD.
> 
> Save your changes.


After this, we can go full steam ahead for the DTM improvements. Jim, will the upcoming beta (focus on instant AR) also include the desat improvement as well?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

desray2k said:


> After this, we can go full steam ahead for the DTM improvements. Jim, will the upcoming beta (focus on instant AR) also include the desat improvement as well?


He mentioned that desat will be after this


----------



## desray2k

Aaron Toulmin said:


> He mentioned that desat will be after this


Thanks for the info... Missed it.


----------



## ajbriones

[email protected] said:


> seeing is believing. How about posting a nice demo video in Youtube to show the potential customers that LRP can do instant auto aspect change?


It's so close, by actual days. Let's have a bit of patience, then you can record a video yourself and post it to YouTube.


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> After this, we can go full steam ahead for the DTM improvements. Jim, will the upcoming beta (focus on instant AR) also include the desat improvement as well?


This is the instant auto-aspect release. As I have said before, Desaturation is _next_.


----------



## PeterLarsson

jrp said:


> Updated Auto Aspect almost ready...
> 
> I found one minor corner case in a test release yesterday. This was with content from (circa.) 1942. Pat fixed it and is doing another round of FPGA synthesis. Should have the Beta posted today (our Thursday) or tomorrow (our Friday).
> 
> I have a couple setup comments for the new instant aspect:
> 
> Unless you disagree with my belief that aspect changes on an anamorphic screen during content are totally dumb, I recommend the new 0.5 second setting for auto-aspect. This gives very snappy auto-aspect changes for the beginning and end of content. I actually watched some Top Gun: Maverick aspect changes and even at 0.5 seconds they looked good. At 0.5 seconds auto-aspect looks at either 12 frames (24 Hertz), 25 frames (50 Hertz), or 30 frames (60 Hertz), to have a new aspect ratio before changing. In general the instant does a perfect job of detection, but if there are issues in the content (noise, content that "looks" like a different aspect due to black at top and bottom of active raster), requiring many frames of consistent change would help. No known cases of this in testing current test releases though. So, maybe not needed at all.
> 
> That said, other than the one minor corner case I found yesterday that has already be resolved, instant auto aspect works great. I am not seeing miss-detects on any content I have looked at from our Strato, Oppo 203, Roku, or DirecTV. So, if you do want changes within a movie, I believe you will be very happy with the updated version of auto-aspect.
> 
> Feel free to put the instant auto aspect speed (or any of the selected speed settings) to the test and let us know the source device, content name, and timestamp, if you find an issue.
> 
> You will select the auto-aspect speed in the Other->Aspect-Setup->Options sub-menu. Default will be 0.5 seconds.
> 
> You will be able to enable the OSD report of auto-aspect changes in the same menu. Default will be off.
> 
> If you own a Kaleidescape Strato, I recommend using the "report content type Meta Data" setting in the Strato advanced setup menu. Then enable use graphics flag in the Radiance Pro Auto Aspect. If you use the 2.35 OSD aspect ratio setting, then in the Radiance Pro auto-aspect setup menu, I recommend you set the aspect ratio selected by the graphics flag (sent by Strato when showing it is displaying its OSD) to 2.40 (even through the Strato setting is at 2.35). The OSD looks great with 2.40 selected, and since most movies are 2.40, this eliminates the aspect change going into a 2.40 movie, or coming back to the OSD. This is a small thing since the Strato takes some time to start the movie and to go back to the OSD, but it looks better visually to not see the quick 2.40 to 2.35 change going back to the OSD.
> 
> Save your changes.


Thanks for the update Jim! really have high hope for this release since the problem with auto aspect not at all working with the current latest release is there with Zappiti. Eager to test and the family will watch Top Gun tonight so big hope


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Watched top gun with mates tonight. We all agreed that sticking to 2:35 was the best. They all firmly didn’t like the aspect changes.

one made a good point. It made the action scenes appear smaller on the screen


----------



## Russell G.

What about this one 80" 🤷‍♂️


----------



## bjorg

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Watched top gun with mates tonight. We all agreed that sticking to 2:35 was the best. They all firmly didn’t like the aspect changes.
> 
> one made a good point. It made the action scenes appear smaller on the screen


Yes, because you have the wrong screen ratio for that content. The consensus seems to be that if you have an AR of 2.0 or less, then the variable AR works well, otherwise keep the width fixed. I have a 2.0 AR and the IMAX scenes looks spectacular on it. YMMV


----------



## Kris Deering

Obviously switching aspect ratios for movies is a subjective thing. I don’t like it, but I know of. Lot of things in life I don’t like thy others do. Ultimately people have the option to do whatever method they want. Hopefully this update makes it more enjoyable regardless of which method you prefer.


----------



## Erod

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Watched top gun with mates tonight. We all agreed that sticking to 2:35 was the best. They all firmly didn’t like the aspect changes.
> 
> one made a good point. It made the action scenes appear smaller on the screen


The big scenes become small, and the small scenes get big. 🤮


----------



## by96

Deleted


----------



## Naiera

..


----------



## raullopez1234

by96 said:


> This post got me thinking, so I set up the LRP as suggested above to force 1080p in the Video EDID on Memory D and then to accept full 4K on Memory C for my OLED. (I use Memories A and B for my PJ.) I then tested with static text via iTunes Movies, switching between Memories C and D.
> 
> I used my iPhone 11 Pro to take these pictures, so obviously, this is not very scientific. The top pictures is letting the ATV upscale 1080p to 4K, while the bottom picture is letting the Lumagen due the upscaling. While the photos are obviously not perfect by any means, I will say that the differences in the pictures are representative of what I saw with my naked eye. The curvature of the "e" just seems smoother with the ATV upscaling.
> 
> HOWEVER, I am very new to all this and maybe don't have the LRP settings correct. I love my LRP and in no way mean this post as a criticism. I would buy it all over again for the DTM, auto aspect, etc. But it seems @Naiera has a good point about the ATV upscaling.
> 
> View attachment 3358228
> View attachment 3358229


You're definitely not mistaking that the lumagen upscaling from 1080p to 4k is underwhelming.


----------



## by96

raullopez1234 said:


> You're definitely not mistaking that the lumagen upscaling from 1080p to 4k is underwhelming.


See my edited post. I messed up, because the ATV menus are natively 4K, so for the first photo, there was no upscaling occurring. However, the latter two photos did show the LRP upscaling with and without Sharpening on.


----------



## fatherom

by96 said:


> See my edited post. I messed up, because the ATV menus are natively 4K, so for the first photo, there was no upscaling occurring. However, the latter two photos did show the LRP upscaling with and without Sharpening on.


The Apple TV menus are in whatever resolution the Apple TV is outputting. For example, someone could have a 1080p display and use an Apple TV with it. In that case, the Apple TV menus would not be in 4K.

Also, you can go into the Apple Video Settings and force the Apple TV output to be 1080p. In that case also, the menus would not be in 4K.

So I think the comparison is still potentially valid.


----------



## by96

fatherom said:


> The Apple TV menus are in whatever resolution the Apple TV is outputting. For example, someone could have a 1080p display and use an Apple TV with it. In that case, the Apple TV menus would not be in 4K.
> 
> Also, you can go into the Apple Video Settings and force the Apple TV output to be 1080p. In that case also, the menus would not be in 4K.
> 
> So I think the comparison is still potentially valid.


Deleted


----------



## Javs

whatever...


----------



## Kris Deering

Javs said:


> whatever...


Are we sure there is no aspect changes going on or that he has all sharpening features disabled? Easy for other things to be contributing to this, including the display as well.


----------



## by96

Kris Deering said:


> Are we sure there is no aspect changes going on or that he has all sharpening features disabled? Easy for other things to be contributing to this, including the display as well.


Deleted


----------



## bobof

Darbee is one to check also, as by default it is enabled for upscale (I recall)


----------



## jrp

by96 said:


> I previously posted these photos showing what I thought was ATV versus LRP upscaling of 1080p to 4K. However, I made a mistake, in that the menus in the ATV are native 4K, so for the first picture, there was no upscaling. For anyone interested, the first photo below is native 4K, the second is the LRP upscaling 1080p to 4K with Sharpening on, and the second is with Sharpening off. Sorry for any confusion.


I am sorry but you fundamentally miss the point of a video processor. We 100% optimize for video. The text you show does not represent a good video test. We definitely do _not_ optimize for text. It does _not_ follow Nyquist sampling. We optimize for decompressed video. Even photos are not good for evaluation since they have frequencies that would not occur in decompressed video.

Pixel peeping does _not_ represent what you would see at viewing distance. I am attaching the Texktronix white paper on their quantitative image analysis that is used by major studios and broadcast networks for their quantitative analysis of image quality.

I know some will make a comment on this, but the work done by Tektronix over the past 30 to 40 years in conjunction with major movie studios and broadcast networks is the state of the art analysis completed by a number of PhD perception physicists. I have seen people say they do not agree, but that makes no sense. These are the expert's results.

If you like to sit and _watch_ text then text is a good test. Otherwise, and it is much harder, you need to evaluate actual video compressed at normal rates and then decompressed. In fact you need to evaluate video in motion at viewing distance. Yes, it is much harder, but IMO it is the only valid test.

We optimize for video and that is why the Radiance Pro always is winning unbiased _video_ scaling comparisons at viewing distance.


----------



## by96

bobof said:


> Darbee is one to check also, as by default it is enabled for upscale (I recall)


You are correct! Darbee was turned on with upscaling.


----------



## by96

jrp said:


> I am sorry but you fundamentally miss the point of a video processor. We 100% optimize for video. The text you show does not represent a good video test. We definitely do _not_ optimize for text. It does _not_ follow Nyquist sampling. We optimize for decompressed video. Even photos are not good for evaluation since they have frequencies that would not occur in decompressed video.
> 
> Pixel peeping does _not_ represent what you would see at viewing distance. I am attaching the Texktronix white paper on their Quantitative image analysis that is use by major studios and broadcast networks for their quantitative analysis of image quality.
> 
> I know some will make a comment on this, but the work done by Tektronix over the past 30 to 40 years in conjunction with major movie studios and broadcast networks it the state of the art analysis completed by a number of PhD perception physicists. I have seen people say they do not agree, but that makes no sense. These are the expert's results.
> 
> If you like to sit and _watch_ text then text is a good test. Otherwise, and it is much harder, you need to evaluate actual video compressed at normal rates and then decompressed. In fact you need to evaluate video in motion at viewing distance. Yes, it is much harder, but IMO it is the only valid test.
> 
> We optimize for video and that is why the Radiance Pro always is winning unbiased _video_ scaling comparisons at viewing distance.


Totally fair point. Text is very different than video. I do not have the visual acuity to judge video, especially from my seating. I tried that first before using the text. But I can see how the text is misleading to the end goal. I have deleted the posts.


----------



## Craig Peer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Watched top gun with mates tonight. We all agreed that sticking to 2:35 was the best. They all firmly didn’t like the aspect changes.
> 
> one made a good point. It made the action scenes appear smaller on the screen


That's my plan tomorrow - thank goodness for the sticky aspect ratio feature. Tonight though it's the original Top Gun!


----------



## Craig Peer

by96 said:


> You are correct! Darbee was turned on in the upscaled image.


I've learned to not like what Darbee does to my picture over the years. The novelty wore off quite some time ago.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Craig Peer said:


> I've learned to not like what Darbee does to my picture over the years. The novelty wore off quite some time ago.


I agree anything over 25% 35% HD its starts to do funny things. When i used it setting was 25%HD max. I do not bother anymore. The Darbee the contrast enhancer that don't really enhance the contrast miby had it's day lol.


----------



## desray2k

Patiently waiting for the new beta firmware to be released...holding off my Top Gun Maverick viewing for this instant AR. At least something new and refreshing to play around with over the weekend till the next big release on the DTM improvement.


----------



## Javs

...


----------



## desray2k

Javs said:


> Can we stop acting like Tektronix are the only guys in town now?


Javs, why the hostile tone towards Jim? 😳


----------



## bosler.bruce

desray2k said:


> Javs, why the hostile tone towards Jim? 😳


Javs, AND I glanced through all the links posted and don't see what that has to do with the Jim's contention that text is not a valid way to assess video quality... what's your point?


----------



## desray2k

bosler.bruce said:


> Javs, AND I glanced through all the links posted and don't see what that has to do with the Jim's contention that text is not a valid way to assess video quality... what's your point?


I have no beef with Javs, I just thought that the last sentence is directed towards Jim... I guess it's unfounded then. My apologies.


----------



## bosler.bruce

desray2k said:


> I have no beef with Javs, I just thought that the last sentence is directed towards Jim... I guess it's unfounded then. My apologies.


uh.. I was agreeing with you


----------



## desray2k

bosler.bruce said:


> uh.. I was agreeing with you


----------



## Javs

blah


----------



## Javs

blah, cant be bothered...


----------



## desray2k

Javs said:


> blah, cant be bothered...


Yeah you are right...what do I know.


----------



## bobof

by96 said:


> You are correct! Darbee was turned on with upscaling.


Yup, so if you are going to try and do comparisons, best check all such functions are zero'd out or disabled; I think it's only really sharpening and Darbee that you need to be mindful of on the Radiance Pro (there were more options on the older Radiance), and they both can be accessed from he same quick menu. I think unless you particularly care about text viewing with nose against the screen (some do), it's may be best to do subjective tests with real content at seated distance. That's not to say pixels aren't important (obviously they have importance as they make up the image you'll view) but you'll struggle to see them individually from where you sit in most installations, and so need a more holistic view. 

For what it's worth on the whole AppleTV thing, while I could do the "upscaling in the radiance pro" trick / tweak, I've looked at it previously and in my own system I see only downsides. The image quality differences for me with an eShift JVC on a woven AT screen are marginal at best, and massively outweighed by the system usability disaster that it becomes in terms of working out what res content is, then switching to that res and incurring the black screen delays, etc, and the inevitable fact that you're bound to negatively impact your viewing at some point by forgetting to switch it back to 4k, and then streaming content that was available in 4k in 1080p! For me it's probably in the list of things you could do but probably shouldn't. 

If you are watching premium 1080p content like BR discs, of course probably should watch them from a player that can do the right thing and output them in the native resolution from the start if the upscaling is important to you.


----------



## FenceMan

desray2k said:


> Javs, why the hostile tone towards Jim? 😳


I can't speak for him but the continued referencing of unpublished results from a claimed test (Tektronix) proving superiority of one product at this point is completely laughable. It borders on offensive....as if we don't have two eyes and can't see.


----------



## desray2k

FenceMan said:


> I can't speak for him but the continued referencing of unpublished results from a claimed test (Tektronix) proving superiority of one product at this point is completely laughable. It borders on offensive....as if we don't have two eyes and can't see.


Ok thanks for the clarification. I'm a nobody here but my personal view is that we can accord some latitude to Jim in how he wish to present his case even if some of us do not agree in some ways. I know Jav meant well and in fact most of us owe him a debt, all thanks to his findings and sharing in an effort to make Radiance Pro even better for end users. I truly appreciated all his efforts. It takes 2 hands to make a clap and I can see Jim is equally appreciative of Jav's sharing as well.

I guess I shouldn't have bring it up in the first place. I'm just a user looking forward to the new developments for the Radiance Pro series. Let's drop this topic and move on from here.


----------



## by96

bobof said:


> Yup, so if you are going to try and do comparisons, best check all such functions are zero'd out or disabled; I think it's only really sharpening and Darbee that you need to be mindful of on the Radiance Pro (there were more options on the older Radiance), and they both can be accessed from he same quick menu. I think unless you particularly care about text viewing with nose against the screen (some do), it's may be best to do subjective tests with real content at seated distance. That's not to say pixels aren't important (obviously they have importance as they make up the image you'll view) but you'll struggle to see them individually from where you sit in most installations, and so need a more holistic view.
> 
> For what it's worth on the whole AppleTV thing, while I could do the "upscaling in the radiance pro" trick / tweak, I've looked at it previously and in my own system I see only downsides. The image quality differences for me with an eShift JVC on a woven AT screen are marginal at best, and massively outweighed by the system usability disaster that it becomes in terms of working out what res content is, then switching to that res and incurring the black screen delays, etc, and the inevitable fact that you're bound to negatively impact your viewing at some point by forgetting to switch it back to 4k, and then streaming content that was available in 4k in 1080p! For me it's probably in the list of things you could do but probably shouldn't.
> 
> If you are watching premium 1080p content like BR discs, of course probably should watch them from a player that can do the right thing and output them in the native resolution from the start if the upscaling is important to you.


Thanks! I completely agree that as much as possible, all variables but the one being tested must be the same. I originally had no idea the Lumagen activated Darbee for upscaling and was surprised to learn that. 

And you have hit the nail on the head as to the whole point of my now completely and utterly debunked “test.” All I wanted to know was whether forcing the LRP into accepting only 1080p from the ATV was worth the effort. Watching video from my seating position or even closer to the screen showed no difference I could see, so I “pixel peeped” and regrettably, shared what I found here. 

In no way did I intend my post to be an indictment of the LRP’s upscaling. On that subject, I have no knowledge or expertise, as pointed out already. I do see merit in both sides of the argument (i.e., pixel peeping versus only from normal viewing distances), but ultimately, am thrilled with my purchase of the Lumagen and regret nothing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> Yup, so if you are going to try and do comparisons, best check all such functions are zero'd out or disabled; I think it's only really sharpening and Darbee that you need to be mindful of on the Radiance Pro (there were more options on the older Radiance), and they both can be accessed from he same quick menu. I think unless you particularly care about text viewing with nose against the screen (some do), it's may be best to do subjective tests with real content at seated distance. That's not to say pixels aren't important (obviously they have importance as they make up the image you'll view) but you'll struggle to see them individually from where you sit in most installations, and so need a more holistic view.
> 
> For what it's worth on the whole AppleTV thing, while I could do the "upscaling in the radiance pro" trick / tweak, I've looked at it previously and in my own system I see only downsides. The image quality differences for me with an eShift JVC on a woven AT screen are marginal at best, and massively outweighed by the system usability disaster that it becomes in terms of working out what res content is, then switching to that res and incurring the black screen delays, etc, and the inevitable fact that you're bound to negatively impact your viewing at some point by forgetting to switch it back to 4k, and then streaming content that was available in 4k in 1080p! For me it's probably in the list of things you could do but probably shouldn't.
> 
> If you are watching premium 1080p content like BR discs, of course probably should watch them from a player that can do the right thing and output them in the native resolution from the start if the upscaling is important to you.


Presumably if you let all your sources do the upscaling then you never get the benefits of the Radiance Pro upscaling or the Darbee enhancement?


----------



## Chicagobear1

graticular said:


> Presumably if you let all your sources do the upscaling then you never get the benefits of the Radiance Pro upscaling or the Darbee enhancement?


The Darbee only works with HD input like 1080i 1080p won't work with 4k input. The best way is to let the lumagen to do the scaling especially if you have a source direct mode with your input. Or let set the your source to the relevant input and let the Lumagen do the rest to scale the output. For the benefits for the lumagen scaling.


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> Presumably if you let all your sources do the upscaling then you never get the benefits of the Radiance Pro upscaling or the Darbee enhancement?


I don't think I said to let all your sources do the upscaling, just that there are some sources that are more hassle than there is benefit.


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> I don't think I said to let all your sources do the upscaling, just that there are some sources that are more hassle than there is benefit.


I agree that the ATV can be the most hassle, but a blu-ray player which won't do source direct isn't far behind, so similar principles would seem to apply to both, hence my concern that IF both sources did the upscaling then Radiance Pro upscaling and Darbee would be wasted if these were the only 2 significant inputs.


----------



## bosler.bruce

graticular said:


> Presumably if you let all your sources do the upscaling then you never get the benefits of the Radiance Pro upscaling or the Darbee enhancement?


I admit I haven't tried Darbee on my 5244 and haven't seen it in use since the original units quite a while ago, but this is the first time in a long time I've heard anybody state they thought it was actually an "enhancement." 

All I've heard are people saying to avoid it it.


----------



## desray2k

bosler.bruce said:


> this is the first time in a long time I've heard anybody state they thought it was actually an "enhancement."
> 
> All I've heard are people saying to avoid it it.


I agreed...Darbee Vision for display was introduced to the HT market in 2012 - 2013 iirc. Back then, 1080p still reign but with 4K capable display that can produce 4x more resolution, Darbee's proprietary sharpening algorithm becomes deprecated imo. I guess the Darbee feature in RP can still provide some really good image enhancement for 1080i/p material but otherwise, I'm pretty sure no one going to use it.


----------



## henrich3

bosler.bruce said:


> I admit I haven't tried Darbee on my 5244 and haven't seen it in use since the original units quite a while ago, but this is the first time in a long time I've heard anybody state they thought it was actually an "enhancement."
> 
> All I've heard are people saying to avoid it it.


Odd man out, I guess, but I use it. IMO it gives a nice apparent bump up in perceived resolution if you configure the Darbee with a setting of around HiDef 20 or so. The Gaming and Full Pop modes make the image look pretty awful, as can the Hi Def mode if you crank up the value too high. If configured with a little restraint however it does a nice job IMO.

For those unfamiliar with the enhancement, Darbee's website shows what it does. Their examples use too extreme settings on the images & videos, but they do get the idea across. Just know that you can dial down the enhancement to whatever level suits your taste.
Images — DarbeeVision


----------



## DigitalAV

Darbee at 25 Gaming can work quite well with computer animated (Pixar) 1080p Blus, giving textures a higher resolution look and feel from normal seating distances.

I also prefer to use 25 HD with live action 1080p Blus (and definitely no sharpening, combining the two makes for a terrible effect).

Each user can make up their own mind without the silly "people are saying" snobs.

Try it. If you like it, use it. If you don't, no one cares.


----------



## EVH78

To me Darbee is THE weapon of choice when it comes to 3D and computer animated movies.


----------



## Naiera

bosler.bruce said:


> I admit I haven't tried Darbee on my 5244 and haven't seen it in use since the original units quite a while ago, but this is the first time in a long time I've heard anybody state they thought it was actually an "enhancement."
> 
> All I've heard are people saying to avoid it it.


Some of us have been saying that since it was released, when everything we knew about how bad it is to add false sharpness apparently went out the window 🤬



henrich3 said:


> For those unfamiliar with the enhancement, Darbee's website shows what it does. Their examples use too extreme settings on the images & videos, but they do get the idea across. Just know that you can dial down the enhancement to whatever level suits your taste.
> Images — DarbeeVision


Was and always will be an abomination 👿


----------



## bobof

graticular said:


> I agree that the ATV can be the most hassle, but a blu-ray player which won't do source direct isn't far behind, so similar principles would seem to apply to both, hence my concern that IF both sources did the upscaling then Radiance Pro upscaling and Darbee would be wasted if these were the only 2 significant inputs.


It's much easier to deal with, though. Get one of the UHD players which do switch - of which there are plenty - or use a dedicated BD player for 1080p. Even if you don't though, discs are a much easier user proposition, too, as it's obvious what res to set to before you start playing.


----------



## graticular

bobof said:


> It's much easier to deal with, though. Get one of the UHD players which do switch - of which there are plenty - or use a dedicated BD player for 1080p. Even if you don't though, discs are a much easier user proposition, too, as it's obvious what res to set to before you start playing.


Despite the cost l have been vaguely tempted by the Pannde PD-6 which does source direct and is much admired by those who have tried it:








Pannde PD-6 Elite UHD player


Hi, if anyone is interested, I have a almost brand new Pannde PD-6 for sale. It's complete with carton box and all accessoires and I did use it only few months to play SACD But now did buy HiFi Rose RS150 streamer and don't play any SACD anymore. Price is 1750 euro without shipping, I'm living...




www.avsforum.com




However I don't know if its benefits would be wasted on Lumagen users.
Has anyone here tried a Pannde with a Lumagen?


----------



## ajbriones

graticular said:


> Despite the cost l have been vaguely tempted by the Pannde PD-6 which does source direct and is much admired by those who have tried it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pannde PD-6 Elite UHD player
> 
> 
> Hi, if anyone is interested, I have a almost brand new Pannde PD-6 for sale. It's complete with carton box and all accessoires and I did use it only few months to play SACD But now did buy HiFi Rose RS150 streamer and don't play any SACD anymore. Price is 1750 euro without shipping, I'm living...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However I don't know if its benefits would be wasted on Lumagen users.
> Has anyone here tried a Pannde with a Lumagen?


Is that just re-branded Oppo 205? I mean, it looks exactly like my Oppo 205.


----------



## graticular

ajbriones said:


> Is that just re-branded Oppo 205? I mean, it looks exactly like my Oppo 205.


I don't think so although it does use Oppo firmware. The hardware is supposed to be pretty good, and it weighs 16kg.


----------



## docrog

bobof said:


> Get one of the UHD players which do switch - of which there are plenty - or use a dedicated BD player for 1080p.


As has been previously discussed in this forum, the advantage of the (relatively inexpensive) Sony UHD players is that they allow the user to choose NOT to upscale to 4K, allowing 4K & 1080p content to pass natively once that option has been selected. The only (potential) downside is that legacy DVD content will automatically be upscaled to 1080p unless the main menu is accessed and the "display" limited to that resolution for the DVD (then re-accessed when finished viewing); this is only of consequence if the user strongly feels that the RP is significantly superior in upscaling 480 i/p to 1080p when compared to the Sony. The Sony 700 & 800 players have always performed equal or superior to my prior UHD players: Panasonic (700, 820 & 420) as well as my initial Samsung K-8500; an added bonus is that the Sony players also are SACD capable.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> As has been previously discussed in this forum, the advantage of the (relatively inexpensive) Sony UHD players is that they allow the user to choose NOT to upscale to 4K, allowing 4K & 1080p content to pass natively once that option has been selected. The only (potential) downside is that legacy DVD content will automatically be upscaled to 1080p unless the main menu is accessed and the "display" limited to that resolution for the DVD (then re-accessed when finished viewing); this is only of consequence if the user strongly feels that the RP is superior in upscaling 480 i/p to 1080p than the Sony. The 700 & 800 players have always performed equal or superior to my prior UHD players: Panasonic (700, 820 & 420) as well as my initial Samsung K-8500.


Yes, it was specifically the Oppo and clones and the Sony I was thinking about. For me the DVD playback use case is so infrequent these days as to be a non-issue, but I mostly use an Oppo clone as a player myself, it doesn't have a disc transport so I rip titles before playback. Cost a couple of hundred.


----------



## sjschaff

About Darbee processing: it has little to do with image sharpening. It's about the depth of the image as computed by the brain in concert, I think, with the depth of field. Close one eye and you get 2D. Open both you get 3D. All about parallax. Seems that Darbee is attempting to present to our eyes, after video processing and right before the video stream enters the projector or other device, a means for recreating what our two eyes would "see" in real life. I cannot say that in its current state it's successful. However, I liken it to a good subwoofer: if you sense its sonic presence, you've cranked it up too loud. It's subtle and by using it for a time and then removing it you'll recognize its absence.


----------



## Kris Deering

Darbee is a local contrast enhancer, not a "sharpening" tool. It changes the digital levels of high contrast objects near each other to give you a higher contrast which in turn makes things seems sharper because of how we perceive edges. This can also give what appears to be a bump in mixed contrast with some images (like star fields) because it is changing the values of the white/black transitions. I typically like Darbee processing with HD or lower signals if used VERY judiciously (say around 15-20 in the HD mode) but I understand those who may opt not to use it as well. It is definitely a feature I could live without though.


----------



## Naiera

It sucks no matter what you call it.


----------



## Kris Deering

Naiera said:


> It sucks no matter what you call it.


I feel that is a bit strong but everyone has their own opinion. If setup too aggressively, it does indeed suck.


----------



## woofer

Naiera said:


> It sucks no matter what you call it.


Disagree....as others have said.....used in moderation it does help improve lower res content.
But.....each to their own..


----------



## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> Darbee is a local contrast enhancer, not a "sharpening" tool. *It changes the digital levels of high contrast objects near each other to give you a higher contrast which in turn makes things seems sharper because of how we perceive edges.* This can also give what appears to be a bump in mixed contrast with some images (like star fields) because it is changing the values of the white/black transitions. I typically like Darbee processing with HD or lower signals if used VERY judiciously (say around 15-20 in the HD mode) but I understand those who may opt not to use it as well. It is definitely a feature I could live without though.


Isn't that pretty much a definition of sharpening filter?


----------



## Naiera

MDesigns said:


> Isn't that pretty much a definition of sharpening filter?


I remember the goalposts moving quite a lot when it was first introduced. First it was sharpening, then it was something else, and on and on...


----------



## ajbriones

ATV4K users with the LRP, I’m curious what color settings you’re using: YCbCr, RGB High or RGB. Also, 4:4:4 or 4:2;:0? Projextor is LS12000 if that makes a difference.


----------



## Kris Deering

MDesigns said:


> Isn't that pretty much a definition of sharpening filter?


A simpler sharpening filter will add white around a darker edge. Darbee is lowering the black values and raising the white values but not everywhere. So it takes a high number to see “edges”. Easy to turn on and off so season to taste.


----------



## gattorodolfo

jim you wrote that the update would be released this weekend. Can you tell me what the forecasts are, thank you


----------



## desray2k

gattorodolfo said:


> jim you wrote that the update would be released this weekend. Can you tell me what the forecasts are, thank you


Probably run into some bump in FPGA timing?


----------



## Kris Deering

Probably will come out today.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Jockychan from avforums has posted Pipeline production is up and running.

Just a heads up firmware version :091922 was a beta release. Jim and pat has now changed this to the pipeline production release. So if anyone was waiting for the production release it's official.


----------



## Ian_Currie

Chicagobear1 said:


> Jockychan from avforums has posted Pipeline production is up and running.
> 
> Just a heads up firmware version :091922 was a beta release. Jim and pat has now changed this to the pipeline production release. So if anyone was waiting for the production release it's official.


There's no new version on the website yet....


----------



## bobof

Ian_Currie said:


> There's no new version on the website yet....


I think you've misunderstood the point being made, which is just that the previous Production Candidate build has been relabelled to now be the current Production version. It wasn't in relation to the new forthcoming (beta?) FW with auto aspect improvements.


----------



## Chicagobear1

Ian it's the latest firmware that's been changed to production as bobof has just said. No changes to anything just a stable beta that's been changed to production. You can see it now says production. Instead of production candidate.


----------



## Ian_Currie

I did understand that it was most likely the same version but because it didn't say 'production' version when I checked I thought I'd sort of, you know, double check. It does say production now.

Thanks for clarifying, guys.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Questions about a Radiance Pro UltraHD 4446 from a non Lumagen owner.

*IR Input:* Is this input positive logic like that from most IR distribution blocks with flasher outputs.

*HDMI Outputs:* Can one HDMI out be video only, another be audio only and a third be used as a scaler? Desired; have a UHD HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 source and have one HDMI Out feed a non HDCP 2.2 HD (1920 x 1080) monitor. May also want to feed a Blackmagic Design DeckLink that is not HDCP 2.2 so I can view video waveforms & vectorscope via the HTPC, is this possible?

Can setups be stored on a USB flash drive?


----------



## jrp

gattorodolfo said:


> jim you wrote that the update would be released this weekend. Can you tell me what the forecasts are, thank you


For our test releases the Synthesis had been completing in about a day for a full speed synthesis. However, for the public release we are preparing, with only a couple small changes, the synthesis has taken longer. I talked to Patrick and he believes we will have a public release out for instant aspect changes later today. We will list this one as a Beta for now.

==== 

As a side note: We changed the 091922 release label from "Production Candidate" to "Production." It is working very well in the field and I am hearing some still are waiting to load it until it has the official "Production" label. So, we wanted to update it to Production status.


----------



## bobof

Wendell R. Breland said:


> Questions about a Radiance Pro UltraHD 4446 from a non Lumagen owner.
> 
> *IR Input:* Is this input positive logic like that from most IR distribution blocks with flasher outputs.
> 
> *HDMI Outputs:* Can one HDMI out be video only, another be audio only and a third be used as a scaler? Desired; have a UHD HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 source and have one HDMI Out feed a non HDCP 2.2 HD (1920 x 1080) monitor. May also want to feed a Blackmagic Design DeckLink that is not HDCP 2.2 so I can view video waveforms & vectorscope via the HTPC, is this possible?
> 
> Can setups be stored on a USB flash drive?


I think most folk are better off with an IR emitter than using the wired IR input IMHO as wired blocks the IR sensor on the front from functioning, and it's just too useful to be able to point a remote at the unit and have it function. But people do use the output of things like the Xantech IR distribution blocks into the back of the Radiance Pro. 

All video outputs have to have the same output resolution simultaneously. So you can configure memories to operate one output at 4K HDCP2.2, and another to 1080p HDCP1.4, but not simultaneously. The use case that works is using a Radiance to process for a TV and a Projector that won't be in use at the same time.

There is no USB host functionality, only device, so no direct connection of a memory card. You can back up configurations over the USB device interface to an attached PC, and then store them wherever you like.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

bobof said:


> But people do use the output of things like the Xantech IR distribution blocks into the back of the Radiance Pro.


Very good and yes, I do use Xantech blocks (2). 



> All video outputs have to have the same output resolution simultaneously.


If a HDMI is configured for audio only can I assume it is HDMI 1.4 with audio only (no video)?



> There is no USB host functionality, only device, so no direct connection of a memory card. You can back up configurations over the USB device interface to an attached PC, and then store them wherever you like.


That will work for me.


----------



## jrp

Wendell R. Breland said:


> Questions about a Radiance Pro UltraHD 4446 from a non Lumagen owner.
> 
> *IR Input:* Is this input positive logic like that from most IR distribution blocks with flasher outputs.
> 
> *HDMI Outputs:* Can one HDMI out be video only, another be audio only and a third be used as a scaler? Desired; have a UHD HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 source and have one HDMI Out feed a non HDCP 2.2 HD (1920 x 1080) monitor. May also want to feed a Blackmagic Design DeckLink that is not HDCP 2.2 so I can view video waveforms & vectorscope via the HTPC, is this possible?
> 
> Can setups be stored on a USB flash drive?


The IR input was designed to work with Xantech IR repeaters. Xantech uses a 38 KHz 12 VDC signal through a 1K Ohm resistor. For all Radiance Pro units, I made a change so the wired input should work with other brands that follow the standard 38 KHz IR pulse protocol, but instead use a 5 VDC output through a resistor. We have not tested the Radiance Pro wired IR input with all IR repeater products, but the ones we know about work with the Radiance Pro.

For outputs with video capability, all Radiance Pro outputs are processed. They output the same video, at the same resolution, rate, setup, and calibration.

=== 

If you want to know how to set up a second memory to output 1080p this is possible. Please email lumagen.com support to start a conversation about this.


----------



## jrp

Just posted Instant Aspect Beta:

Beta 110222 - Posted 111422 Upgraded auto aspect detection to instantly detect and change source aspect. The user can select the auto-aspect to be instant or require 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 seconds with the new aspect before changing the source aspect to it. You can now enable reporting the changes auto-aspect makes. Auto aspect settings are in the Input: Options Aspect setup menu and then under Auto Aspect or Options. The NLS button now toggles NLS mode instead of only turning on NLS. Auto aspect merge can now optionally merge to 1.85. Other small bugfixes. Please continue sending your detailed feedback


----------



## bobof

Wendell R. Breland said:


> If a HDMI is configured for audio only can I assume it is HDMI 1.4 with audio only (no video)?


There's no such thing as HDMI with audio only; there is a blue screen static signal that is sent with the audio, I think if I recall it is 720p, I'm pretty sure it supports the HDMI "audio" connection at HDCP1.4.


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Just posted Instant Aspect Beta:
> 
> Beta 110222 - Posted 111422 Upgraded auto aspect detection to instantly detect and change source aspect. The user can select the auto-aspect to be instant or require 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 seconds with the new aspect before changing the source aspect to it. You can now enable reporting the changes auto-aspect makes. Auto aspect settings are in the Input: Options Aspect setup menu and then under Auto Aspect or Options. The NLS button now toggles NLS mode instead of only turning on NLS. Auto aspect merge can now optionally merge to 1.85. Other small bugfixes. Please continue sending your detailed feedback


Nice one, Jim! What does "You can now enable reporting the changes auto-aspect makes" mean? Sounds interesting! 
Edit: nevermind, I assume this is the reporting to the OSD of the aspect on auto-aspect switch


----------



## Kris Deering

Correct. It is just an onscreen report of aspect. You can turn off and on from aspect settings screen right under the auto aspect menu. Same with the time for auto aspect. I also recommend turning on support for extended aspects in that menu.


----------



## 187crew003

jrp said:


> Just posted Instant Aspect Beta:
> 
> Beta 110222 - Posted 111422 Upgraded auto aspect detection to instantly detect and change source aspect. The user can select the auto-aspect to be instant or require 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 seconds with the new aspect before changing the source aspect to it. You can now enable reporting the changes auto-aspect makes. Auto aspect settings are in the Input: Options Aspect setup menu and then under Auto Aspect or Options. The NLS button now toggles NLS mode instead of only turning on NLS. Auto aspect merge can now optionally merge to 1.85. Other small bugfixes. Please continue sending your detailed feedback


Just tested it out with the opening of Star Trek into darkness. Flawless. Very very impressive!


----------



## Kris Deering

187crew003 said:


> Just tested it out with the opening of Star Trek into darkness. Flawless. Very very impressive!


Using instant or one of the delays?


----------



## 187crew003

Kris Deering said:


> Using instant or one of the delays?


Instant.


----------



## graticular

Just tested the new auto-aspect fast changes on a few series and films on Apple TV, and tried the 0.5 and 2 second delays and the instant. All these worked brilliantly, and I was delighted to see the onscreen report of the new aspect ratio. The only problem was that this flashes up at almost subliminal speeds making very difficult to spot sometimes. This really needs to be present for at least 4 or 5 seconds, after all if people do not want it it can be switched off. By comparison the aspect ratio reports for manual changes last a good 7 seconds.
One thing I noted was that when switching to the 1.9 ration used in Inventing Anna on Netflix the auto-aspect worked perfectly but refused to show the onscreen report despite repeated tries.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> Just posted Instant Aspect Beta:
> 
> Beta 110222 - Posted 111422 Upgraded auto aspect detection to instantly detect and change source aspect. The user can select the auto-aspect to be instant or require 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 seconds with the new aspect before changing the source aspect to it. You can now enable reporting the changes auto-aspect makes. Auto aspect settings are in the Input: Options Aspect setup menu and then under Auto Aspect or Options. The NLS button now toggles NLS mode instead of only turning on NLS. Auto aspect merge can now optionally merge to 1.85. Other small bugfixes. Please continue sending your detailed feedback


First off — an amazing update! Kudos!

Posting test results that will hopefully help. With all sources in all cases there is one visible frame before the switch. It doesn’t happen all the time, but about 95% of the time.

I can post videos if needed.

I tested instant aspect changes in Interstellar (Plex HTPC), TG: Maverick (Kaleidescape), The Redeem Team (ATV4K/Netflix), M-I: Fallout (Kaleidescape).

Signal path: sources into the LRP, audio from LRP to AVR, video from LRP to projector.

Tested sources: Kaleidescape, HTPC (Win10, Plex HTPC), ATV4K


----------



## ajbriones

187crew003 said:


> Just tested it out with the opening of Star Trek into darkness. Flawless. Very very impressive!


Am I the only one seeing a junk frame before the instant aspect kicks in?


----------



## 187crew003

ajbriones said:


> Am I the only one seeing a junk frame before the instant aspect kicks in?


I def do not see it. I was specifically looking for it too


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Installing now. Will give it a try


----------



## desray2k

Top Gun Maverick...here I come. Going to pop in later to check it out with this auto instant AR feature.


----------



## jrp

For instant aspect change, as I mentioned before, the Radiance Pro processes the video as it comes in at the currently active aspect ratio. Because of this, the Pro has a delay in the aspect ratio changing and shows the old aspect for that frame. There is no way for us to change this behavior without completely redesigning the entire architecture. We have no plans to do this for a feature we strongly recommend against using for aspect changes within a movie.

If I am just watching a movie, like Top Gun: Maverick, I do not notice this delay since it lasts less than one-tenth of a second. I only see the change of aspect.


----------



## ajbriones

187crew003 said:


> I def do not see it. I was specifically looking for it too


hmmm. Is mine set up incorrectly, maybe?


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> For instant aspect change, as I mentioned before, the Radiance Pro processes the video as it comes in at the currently active aspect ratio. Because of this, the Pro has a delay in the aspect ratio changing and shows the old aspect for that frame. There is no way for us to change this behavior without completely redesigning the entire architecture. We have no plans to do this for a feature we strongly recommend against using for aspect changes within a movie.
> 
> If I am just watching a movie, like Top Gun: Maverick, I do not notice this delay since it lasts less than one-tenth of a second. I only see the change of aspect.


It’s noticeable on my end, my wife noticed as well. That said, we don’t watch movies with instant aspect on (sticky will be on when I’m done playing with this feature). Where it’s great is when going into menus, because the experience is seamless.

Is it possible to add an option for how long (in seconds) to display the aspect ratio? My handshake when playing a movie to my projector showing an image is longer than the current setting. Also, is there a button to display current aspect ratio on the remote?


----------



## jrp

ajbriones said:


> Is it possible to add an option for how long (in seconds) to display the aspect ratio? My handshake when playing a movie to my projector showing an image is longer than the current setting. Also, is there a button to display current aspect ratio on the remote?


I found the auto-aspect change in aspect report too long when it was shown as long as a normal manual aspect change select. Patrick reduced the time based on my request. However, display time is too short now. So we will double the time to about 2 seconds in the next release. I do not want to make the time programmable but if 2 seconds is still too short for people who want the auto-aspect change report, we can make it longer in a later release.

If you reselect the current input, the aspect ratio should show.


----------



## Clark Burk

Interesting how some viewers notice the 1/10 sec delay and some don’t. I guess it’s similar to judder. Some notice it and some don’t.


----------



## ajbriones

Clark Burk said:


> Interesting how some viewers notice the 1/10 sec delay and some don’t. I guess it’s similar to judder. Some notice it and some don’t.


If you want a torture test, try Mission Impossible Fallout at about 1:55:45 (Kaleidescape time), when Ethan is in the chopper on comms (1.90:1) with everyone else on the ground (2.40:1).

Again, I would never ever watch this movie this way, but it’s a section to go to if you want to look for the pop.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> If you reselect the current input, the aspect ratio should show.


This is PERFECT. I can turn this into a custom button per activity on my Harmony easily. Thanks!


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

The feature is great and a huge improvement. As mentioned before, the feature is great when you bring up an OSD during a 2:35 movie. It’s instant and makes it so much better than waiting for it to change like before.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

For those that are interested

MadVR auto aspect
Lumagen “beta” auto aspect

Just thinking out loud. How hard would it be to add an option to enable a default 2:35 if the lumagen starts to see multiple aspect changes.

essentially an option we can turn on that when lumagen detects 2 or more aspect changes it then sticks to a defined 2:35.

I could always just push the button lol


----------



## OzHDHT

The new beta and the JVC firmware all on the same day. Exciting times all round!


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> For those that are interested
> 
> MadVR auto aspect
> Lumagen “beta” auto aspect
> 
> Just thinking out loud. How hard would it be to add an option to enable a default 2:35 if the lumagen starts to see multiple aspect changes.
> 
> essentially an option we can turn on that when lumagen detects 2 or more aspect changes it then sticks to a defined 2:35.
> 
> I could always just push the button lol


Interesting thought. However, the Radiance Pro does not know _why_ the aspect is changing. It might be the start or end of content. You could enable the feature, but that seems little different from select 2.40 for the entire movie.

Thanks for the suggestion. Always appreciated.


----------



## uderman

jrp said:


> Interesting thought. However, the Radiance Pro does not know _why_ the aspect is changing. It might be the start or end of content. You could enable the feature, but that seems little different from select 2.40 for the entire movie.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion. Always appreciated.


For those who doesn’t care about the auto aspect ratio, can we skip this release or there are important bug fixes?


----------



## ajbriones

Aaron Toulmin said:


> For those that are interested
> 
> MadVR auto aspect
> Lumagen “beta” auto aspect
> 
> Just thinking out loud. How hard would it be to add an option to enable a default 2:35 if the lumagen starts to see multiple aspect changes.
> 
> essentially an option we can turn on that when lumagen detects 2 or more aspect changes it then sticks to a defined 2:35.
> 
> I could always just push the button lol


Yep that is pretty much the same result I’m getting, where that one frame is sometimes visible. Love how it works with menus, starting new content and with docos that interchange archival footage with scope interviews, but if this instant aspect abomination takes off, it would be a huge win to figure out how to get rid of that one frame pop. Love how the LRP holds its own against the Envy!

IMHO, DTM improvements would be a bigger value for me, personally. Thanks @jrp and all the folks at Lumagen for this early Xmas present!


----------



## jrp

uderman said:


> For those who doesn’t care about the auto aspect ratio, can we skip this release or there are important bug fixes?


There are some minor bug fixes, but 091922 is very good and now a "production release" if you do not need the faster auto aspect.


----------



## Jue Liang

ajbriones said:


> Am I the only one seeing a junk frame before the instant aspect kicks in?


I can see that too. But I don’t plan to use this function anyway, so I don’t care.

I’m much more interested in DTM update.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Jue Liang said:


> I can see that too. But I don’t plan to use this function anyway, so I don’t care.
> 
> I’m much more interested in DTM update.


Exactly. I find this a lot more beneficial for OSD menus etc. so it’s not a waste of effort.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

jrp said:


> There are some minor bug fixes, but 091922 is very good and now a "production release" if you do not need the faster auto aspect.


At the frame change between aspect ratios, to help with the change I wonder if a “fade” or some kind of “transition” would be of benefit?


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> Interesting how some viewers notice the 1/10 sec delay and some don’t. I guess it’s similar to judder. Some notice it and some don’t.


Yes, I always think it's interesting to see how different perception of these things is among different people. I've tried showing framerate judder to my wife previously and she simply cannot see it, or even dropped frames from framerate mismatch. She lives a blessed life... lol. I did try the new feature and do see it, but I don't plan on using it in that way (16:9 top / bottom mask screen here) so it doesn't much matter here (for me it would be just another reason of many not to watch like this). I was watching Interstellar for what it's worth, which is probably my favourite of the AR switching movies. 

I did have a look with the 16:9 portions pillarboxed, and then with NLS. I dislike NLS, but I must say if I was going to do one or the other, the NLS option seems less unnatural than "tinyvision" pillarbox edition 16:9 in the middle of the screen. I know there are folk that like it though, each to their own.

---

Hope to get some time over the coming evenings to play with this a bit more. I thought I saw some kind of glitch with impact of the reported AR switches over serial on my masks, not sure at the moment if it is some kind of timing issue with the script now things are sped up, or some difference of behaviour. Be interested to know if anyone else is using the reported ARs over serial notices anything peculiar. I seemed to see it flip to 2.35 or 2.4:1 instead of 1.78:1 when going back to menus sometimes, even though the onscreen info page had the correct AR identified, which is what made me think it might be my script. I ran out of time last night to start debugging the serial reports.


----------



## sunnya23

With the "production" release and the production candidates released beforehand. I have noticed that whenever I go out of a scope film on my scope screen, whether that be from my blu ray player or my shield streaming device, that going back to the menu on either device remains in scope. And sometimes on boot up of either device it will start 4:3. However it resolves itself after going into other menus. Not sure what's going on there or if anyone has had a similar experience. But I never noticed this behavior before the production candidates. I am currently on production 091922.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> I found the auto-aspect change in aspect report too long when it was shown as long as a normal manual aspect change select. Patrick reduced the time based on my request. However, display time is too short now. So we will double the time to about 2 seconds in the next release. I do not want to make the time programmable but if 2 seconds is still too short for people who want the auto-aspect change report, we can make it longer in a later release.


I think 2 seconds could still be a bit brief. Could we go for 4 seconds in the next release on the basis that if people want this feature they need a reasonable chance to see the report, and if they do not want it then they can leave the option off. I find the report doubly useful as it also confirms that the right memory has been selected, so there are 2 pieces of information to take in from the report, thus I think 4 seconds would be optimal.


----------



## EVH78

jrp said:


> However, display time is too short now. So we will double the time to about 2 seconds in the next release. I do not want to make the time programmable but if 2 seconds is still too short for people who want the auto-aspect change report, we can make it longer in a later release.


2 seconds sound great. Why not make it programmable?


----------



## 187crew003

Aaron Toulmin said:


> For those that are interested
> 
> MadVR auto aspect
> Lumagen “beta” auto aspect
> 
> Just thinking out loud. How hard would it be to add an option to enable a default 2:35 if the lumagen starts to see multiple aspect changes.
> 
> essentially an option we can turn on that when lumagen detects 2 or more aspect changes it then sticks to a defined 2:35.
> 
> I could always just push the button lol


Thanks for posting this. Turns out I’m a dumb a$$ and now know why I could r see it. I use NLS so I didn’t see the aspect changes. I would never use what you posted as that’s crazy and now understand why Jim and lumagen would NEver recommend using it

butwhile using NLS it allows for zero skipping and moving of the image. So looks great!


----------



## bobof

187crew003 said:


> Thanks for posting this. Turns out I’m a dumb a$$ and now know why I could r see it. I use NLS so I didn’t see the aspect changes. I would never use what you posted as that’s crazy and now understand why Jim and lumagen would NEver recommend using it
> 
> butwhile using NLS it allows for zero skipping and moving of the image. So looks great!


I think you're probably in the category of folk who blissfully don't see it, so don't go trying to! With NLS there is still a frame that is scaled differently, it's just harder to notice.


----------



## EVH78

bobof said:


> I think you're probably in the category of folk who blissfully don't see it, so don't go trying to! With NLS there is still a frame that is scaled differently, it's just harder to notice.


Yes, unfortunately it´s still noticeable with NLS. This confirms Jim´s opinion to leave it at 2.40.


----------



## tcramer

Trying to catch up here, but what is the point/purpose of auto aspect changes (feel free to point me to a post)? Is there any benefit to using this with a 16:9 screen, or is it only beneficial for scope screens?


----------



## Craig Peer

Aaron Toulmin said:


> For those that are interested
> 
> MadVR auto aspect
> Lumagen “beta” auto aspect
> 
> Just thinking out loud. How hard would it be to add an option to enable a default 2:35 if the lumagen starts to see multiple aspect changes.
> 
> essentially an option we can turn on that when lumagen detects 2 or more aspect changes it then sticks to a defined 2:35.
> 
> I could always just push the button lol


You can push a button now - “sticky aspect ratio “. That’s what I do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DVD MAN

Thank you Jim!!
The instant aspect ratio is working as advertised on my 2.40 screen. I will not be using this for switching between ratios with content that has multiple ratios. I will be keeping those titles in 2.40. I love this instant feature when switching from the 16.9 menu to the widescreen content. Great!!


----------



## ajbriones

DVD MAN said:


> Thank you Jim!!
> The instant aspect ratio is working as advertised on my 2.40 screen. I will not be using this for switching between ratios with content that has multiple ratios. I will be keeping those titles in 2.40. I love this instant feature when switching from the 16.9 menu to the widescreen content. Great!!


It really is fantastic. Spent more time with it last night and it really adds a premium feel to pausing mid-movie to navigate menus with Plex, ATV and Kaleidescape, Great update!


----------



## jrp

graticular said:


> I think 2 seconds could still be a bit brief. Could we go for 4 seconds in the next release on the basis that if people want this feature they need a reasonable chance to see the report, and if they do not want it then they can leave the option off. I find the report doubly useful as it also confirms that the right memory has been selected, so there are 2 pieces of information to take in from the report, thus I think 4 seconds would be optimal.


I found 4 seconds too long for the auto-aspect change report, but not terribly so.

I prefer not adding this as programmable. So if 4 seconds is acceptable to everyone I will ask Patrick to make it a 4 seconds long aspect report.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> I found 4 seconds too long for the auto-aspect change report, but not terribly so.
> 
> I prefer not adding this as programmable. So if 4 seconds is acceptable to everyone I will ask Patrick to make it a 4 seconds long aspect report.


Thanks very much Jim. That would be brilliant.


----------



## audioguy

187crew003 said:


> Thanks for posting this. Turns out I’m a dumb a$$ and now know why I could r see it. I use NLS so I didn’t see the aspect changes. I would never use what you posted as that’s crazy and now understand why Jim and lumagen would NEver recommend using it
> 
> butwhile using NLS it allows for zero skipping and moving of the image. So looks great!


I would love to use NLS specifically for watching sports (college football) but I have yet to find settings that don't create almost unwatchable distortion. Would you be willing to share your NLS settings?


----------



## 187crew003

audioguy said:


> I would love to use NLS specifically for watching sports (college football) but I have yet to find settings that don't create almost unwatchable distortion. Would you be willing to share your NLS settings?


sure thing. ill check them out tonight and report back


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

jrp said:


> The IR input was designed to work with Xantech IR repeaters. Xantech uses a 38 KHz 12 VDC signal through a 1K Ohm resistor. For all Radiance Pro units, I made a change so the wired input should work with other brands that follow the standard 38 KHz IR pulse protocol, but instead use a 5 VDC output through a resistor. We have not tested the Radiance Pro wired IR input with all IR repeater products, but the ones we know about work with the Radiance Pro.


Thanks for that. My Xantech 794-11 block flasher outs is 470Ω and 100Ω with jumper in place, the 790-00 is 470Ω only.

I wish all my devices had 3.5MM IR Inputs that *disable* the front panel IR receiver like my Yanaha AVP does and your Lumagen does. I have three devices (Zappiti Neo, Zidoo Z9X and FreeSAT satellite tuner) that use the same NEC1, Device 64 IR code set. The Neo has IR Input but does not disable the front panel IR receiver so have to cover it, modified the satellite tuner for external IR control. My URC RF base station has 6 flasher outputs that are programmable so none of these 3 devices see each others commands.


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

bobof said:


> There's no such thing as HDMI with audio only; there is a blue screen static signal that is sent with the audio, I think if I recall it is 720p, I'm pretty sure it supports the HDMI "audio" connection at HDCP1.4.


Thought that was understood and did not require more detail. IIRC my Oppo and Sony has black. The label on both are “HDMI Audio Only” hence my use of the term. Some devices offer an option on the “HDMI Audio Only” out for 720 or 1080 @ 1.4


----------



## Clark Burk

henrich3 said:


> Odd man out, I guess, but I use it. IMO it gives a nice apparent bump up in perceived resolution if you configure the Darbee with a setting of around HiDef 20 or so. The Gaming and Full Pop modes make the image look pretty awful, as can the Hi Def mode if you crank up the value too high. If configured with a little restraint however it does a nice job IMO.
> 
> For those unfamiliar with the enhancement, Darbee's website shows what it does. Their examples use too extreme settings on the images & videos, but they do get the idea across. Just know that you can dial down the enhancement to whatever level suits your taste.
> Images — DarbeeVision


You summed it up quite well. Default value or a little less and it can add just enough enhancement to make it look worthwhile. Of course the standard YOMV applies. Great to have the option to use it however.


----------



## bobof

Wendell R. Breland said:


> Thought that was understood and did not require more detail. IIRC my Oppo and Sony has black. The label on both are “HDMI Audio Only” hence my use of the term. Some devices offer an option on the “HDMI Audio Only” out for 720 or 1080 @ 1.4


Sorry. I was picking up on the fact you were saying "(No video)" when as you say to someone who knows the ins and outs (that there is static video) it's obvious - it didn't see from the way you posted that is was obvious _to you_. I am corrected! 

Jim has spoken in the past about 720p vs 1080 for audio out. I believe that on most of the products it is 720p60, and I think the one that breaks from this is the 5244, where the "Audio Only" launched at 1080i60, and I think was due to become 1080p60 (I'm not sure this happened yet. 5244 launch post here New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series)


----------



## Wendell R. Breland

Forgot one Lumagen question. As I understand it HDMI 2.0 outputs will provide +5VDC @ 50mA on pin 18. Per chance Lumagen would supply more current than this? If so, how much?

Recently replaced my HDMI cable to projector with a certified Ultra High Speed fiber optic cable. It uses .6W (5V @ 120mA). Currently using a power inserter with it because all my HDMI outs are 2.0


----------



## jrp

Wendell R. Breland said:


> Forgot one Lumagen question. As I understand it HDMI 2.0 outputs will provide +5VDC @ 50mA on pin 18. Per chance Lumagen would supply more current than this? If so, how much?
> 
> Recently replaced my HDMI cable to projector with a certified Ultra High Speed fiber optic cable. It uses .6W (5V @ 120mA). Currently using a power inserter with it because all my HDMI outs are 2.0


The Radiance Pro video output can supply up to 250 mA. So you can use the cable you mention without a power inserter.


----------



## desray2k

DVD MAN said:


> Thank you Jim!!
> The instant aspect ratio is working as advertised on my 2.40 screen. I will not be using this for switching between ratios with content that has multiple ratios. I will be keeping those titles in 2.40. I love this instant feature when switching from the 16.9 menu to the widescreen content. Great!!


Same here...I'm loving this as well. I'm looking forward to the DTM pipeline improvements and see how far we can stretch LRP. This device keeps getting better like a fine wine over the years. Nothing comes remotely close to Lumagen's support of their products!!!

I'm also using a 2.35:1 AR screen. Switching is instantaneous. Here's a sample clip of Chris Nolan's, Tenet.


----------



## Clark Burk

desray2k said:


> Same here...I'm loving this as well. I'm looking forward to the DTM pipeline improvements and see how far we can stretch LRP. This device keeps getting better like a fine wine over the years. Nothing comes remotely close to Lumagen's support of their products!!!
> 
> I'm also using a 2.35:1 AR screen. Switching is instantaneous. Here's a sample clip of Chris Nolan's, Tenet.


Thanks for the demo. I was curious how this actually worked. Not something I’m likely to use but really good to know Lumagen has us covered if we should choose to go that route. I’m really looking forward to the DTM improvements that have been mentioned.


----------



## bjorg

187crew003 said:


> Just tested it out with the opening of Star Trek into darkness. Flawless. Very very impressive!


I just watched the opening of _Star Trek Into Darkness_ on Kaleidescape and didn't see any aspect ratio changes. Is the K version fixed height? When is the earliest scene with variable AR?


----------



## audioguy

I LOVE the instant aspect change. Like many, I will lock a movie that is primarily 2:35 to 2:35. I'm not a fan of "Director's Intent", specifically when it comes to constantly changing aspect ratios. But many of my input devices have 16x9 menus (e.g.Plex) but now when I actually begin to watch a 2:35 movie, the switch is instantaneous. Nice feature. Very nice.


----------



## Grifo

Well, I’ve tried instant aspect ratio fw upgrade but as my electric masks don’t move as instantly as the aspect ratio does (and this is a consistent obstacle when you watch movies with variable aspect ratios like Interstellar or imax enhanced movies on Disney platform) I ask you if this delay can be reduced. 

Screen: Screen Research AT electric 4 masks.
Crestron system


----------



## Die Zwei

Grifo said:


> Well, I’ve tried instant aspect ratio fw upgrade but as my electric masks don’t move as instantly as the aspect ratio does


I suggest to switch off the electrical masking when watching content with variable ar. A moving mask during a movie is just too much distraction. (and as you noticed, will never keep up with the speed of the changes on the screen)


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

This just all reinforces the absurdity of variable aspect ratios in movies.


----------



## Grifo

Die Zwei said:


> I suggest to switch off the electrical masking when watching content with variable ar. A moving mask during a movie is just too much distraction. (and as you noticed, will never keep up with the speed of the changes on the screen)


This could be an answer. Anyway also the black bars (actually gray with jvc z1) are a distraction and, if the masks movement could start quicker I would prefer…


----------



## Die Zwei

Grifo said:


> This could be an answer. Anyway also the black bars (actually gray with jvc z1) are a distraction and, if the masks movement could start quicker I would prefer…


I think this could only be solved with timecodes coming from the source player (similar to what Kaleidescape does with opening and end credits to active lighting scenes). If you want to do that on-the-fly as it is implemented in the LRP or Envy, you would have to have a look-ahead of a couple of seconds (up to maximum time the mask would need to move), which is technically not possible/feasable.


----------



## jrp

audioguy said:


> I LOVE the instant aspect change. Like many, I will lock a movie that is primarily 2:35 to 2:35. I'm not a fan of "Director's Intent", specifically when it comes to constantly changing aspect ratios. But many of my input devices have 16x9 menus (e.g.Plex) but now when I actually begin to watch a 2:35 movie, the switch is instantaneous. Nice feature. Very nice.


I also dislike any aspect ratio changes in movies or TV shows. My suggestion to directors is, pick an aspect, any aspect. Stick with it for the entire movie. The experiment of changing aspects has failed. Please stop. No way I think any director cares what I think, but gotta try.

To me iMAX movies would be much better as all 1.90 aspect. Use the iMAX camera for the critical shots and they will still look better, and this avoids the jarring aspect ratio changes. For less critical shots use the other cameras and crop to 1.90.It also give the iMAX large 1.90 screens the advantage for the entire movie, and makes images in theaters with an anamorphic screen smaller, increasing the advantage of iMAX theaters. This is the way.

For those that want to see the aspect changes, choose the smaller aspect (1.90 for Top Gun: Maverick) at the beginning of the movie if you have an anamorphic screen. Note: Of course if you have a 16:9 screen you likely do not use auto-aspect, unless you have masking. So this suggestion is likely moot for you. For those with an anamorphic screen, who like me do not want aspect changes to occur in a movie, choose the larger aspect ratio at the beginning of the movie with Sticky Override enabled.

What I really hate and think is double-dumb is making the smaller aspect (1.90 for Top Gun: Maverick) _smaller_ on an anamorphic screen. You are free to disagree.

I know, I know, I am repeating myself. However, now that we have instant auto-aspect, I am making sure people understand that _I really mean it and it is not just we did not have instant auto-aspect before._ To me aspect changes in the movie pull you right out of the movie and are to be avoided, not promoted.

===

That said:

- It is nice to have fast aspect changes at the beginning and end of movies. This is something that has been on our to-do list for at least three or four years. I am glad we finally were able to get this done.

- I am actually fine with watching documentaries that show clips that have different aspects using the new instant auto aspect. This actually makes sense.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> I also dislike any aspect ratio changes in movies or TV shows. My suggestion to directors is, pick an aspect, any aspect. Stick with it for the entire movie. The experiment of changing aspects has failed. Please stop. No way I think any director cares what I think, but gotta try.


I just ranted about this a few minutes ago after watching an IMAX youtube promo with Marvel about how they are mastering for home release and changing aspect ratio from 2.40 to 1.9 and finding "opportunities" to open up to 1.78 for "immersion."

If the audience is not feeling immersed in the story, I guarantee it's not because of the size of the frame. In my opinion, variable aspect ratio does the opposite of immersion. It calls attention to the frame, pulling viewers out of the experience. IMHO, the only way to do variable aspect ratio right without pulling the audience out is either diegetic through composition (e.g. camera moves into position to create a frame within a frame, like looking through a window at characters) or in a stylized way (e.g. comic-style panels). The best uses for variable aspect are embedded in the narrative, like going to 1.33/1.66 with a bleach bypassed color grade to indicate seeing something from the past. It's part of the story. It's real immersion.

Lastly, and this might be off-topic, I hope that when studios re-master films for physical/streaming release that they include the theatrical aspect version alongside the reformatted 1.90 streaming release. I actually hope Kaleidescape goes after this.

I'm showing my age when I have a visceral negative reaction to films being reformatted for home release. I grew up in the age of seeing this title card at home before a movie started, and it made me sick, and I feel like we're going backward: *This film has been modified from its original release. It has been modified to fit this screen.*


----------



## Craig Peer

Die Zwei said:


> I suggest to switch off the electrical masking when watching content with variable ar. A moving mask during a movie is just too much distraction. (and as you noticed, will never keep up with the speed of the changes on the screen)


I believe the film " Everything Everywhere All At Once " could probably wear out or break a masking system trying to keep up with the changes!


----------



## Naiera

EEAAO uses it as part of the narrative. The movie should be viewed in 1.85:1.

While it may look kewl in a Nolan film or the new Top Gun, it does not play any deeper role there. I agree and have said before that they should just pick a format for the movie and stick with it. I don't see why Inception, Tenet or Maverick couldn't just be 1.85:1 all the way through and then have extra neat picture quality for the IMAX stuff.


----------



## Kris Deering

Naiera said:


> EEAAO uses it as part of the narrative. The movie should be viewed in 1.85:1.
> 
> While it may look kewl in a Nolan film or the new Top Gun, it does not play any deeper role there. I agree and have said before that they should just pick a format for the movie and stick with it. I don't see why Inception, Tenet or Maverick couldn't just be 1.85:1 all the way through and then have extra neat picture quality for the IMAX stuff.


Exactly. Instead they try and push this IMAX narrative, which is just IMAX marketing BS. If they want to do that, sell it as two versions (both versions or you can buy the "special" IMAX one). 

I've said it a million times already though. If the director thought that the framing was better in 1.85 or 16x9 they'd just make the whole movie that way for ALL releases. NOTHING is preventing this, but it is NEVER the case for these movies. IMAX wants open matte versions for their distribution because of their screen type (DPs have talked about this already many times). If you have a 16x9 screen, which is constant width, no big deal. But with a scope screen the idea of doing any changes is still just absolutely baffling to me.


----------



## jrp

Two small bug fixes in the following:

* Beta 110322- Posted 111622 Added a delay to lengthen time that auto aspect change is displayed when Auto aspect status is set to 'show' in Aspect Setup: Options menu. Fix for incorrectly reporting detected auto aspect on rs232 on input mode change. Please continue sending your detailed feedback to support@lumagen.com*


----------



## bobof

jrp said:


> Two small bug fixes in the following:
> 
> * Beta 110322- Posted 111622 Added a delay to lengthen time that auto aspect change is displayed when Auto aspect status is set to 'show' in Aspect Setup: Options menu. Fix for incorrectly reporting detected auto aspect on rs232 on input mode change. Please continue sending your detailed feedback to support@lumagen.com*


Thanks Jim! For everyone's benefit, this did resolve the issue mentioned below for me (plus another reported issue with Merge ARs not properly working). 

Amazing turnaround as always from Jim & Patrick on this. 


bobof said:


> I thought I saw some kind of glitch with impact of the reported AR switches over serial on my masks, not sure at the moment if it is some kind of timing issue with the script now things are sped up, or some difference of behaviour. Be interested to know if anyone else is using the reported ARs over serial notices anything peculiar. I seemed to see it flip to 2.35 or 2.4:1 instead of 1.78:1 when going back to menus sometimes


----------



## Dirk44

Thank you Jim and Patrick for the AR tuning, I was one of user who ask years here ago to wake up the sleeping beauty, because this feature was hidden in the unit, even before Nolan start shout in IMAX with Dark Knight. I see it that way, that is only one reason I will use the AR Change in the future with my 2,40 screen and a Isco 1,25 in front.
Can't salute enough if I take a back what you and Patrick did, if I look back to 2015 ! the unit hit the market.
Jim you think is realistic that the DTM Improvements came out before X Mas ...as another Present? Because I just get a used Christie 3 chip DLP and the well know Expert Oliver Klohs is about to bring it up to P3 and HDR, in behalf of my Lumagen Pro and new 3LUT, so timing couldn't be better !


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> Exactly. Instead they try and push this IMAX narrative, which is just IMAX marketing BS. If they want to do that, sell it as two versions (both versions or you can buy the "special" IMAX one).


Exactly. I think IMAX is buying themselves into movie productions just to spread their system. 
Same with IMAX and Disney+. So unfortunately, i´m not with @jrp that variable ar has failed in the market, i´m afraid we´re just at the beginning... And those viewers like us with a scope screen and/or masking system are just a very tiny fraction of the enduser market, so our opinion doesn´t count very much...


----------



## bobof

Die Zwei said:


> And those viewers like us with a scope screen >snip< are just a very tiny fraction of the enduser market


And you're all wrong, anyway...  /me ducks for cover... lol


----------



## BrightSideHT

bjorg said:


> I just watched the opening of _Star Trek Into Darkness_ on Kaleidescape and didn't see any aspect ratio changes. Is the K version fixed height? When is the earliest scene with variable AR?


Yes, on Kaleidescape, Star Trek into the Darkness has a fixed aspect ratio of 2.40:1. To get the VAR version you'll need the 4K disk... The opening scene has aggressive VAR jumping back and forth so it serves as a fantastic demo of the power of the Lumagen but like many here I'm not a fan of VAR. I've had many conversations with Kaleidescape and once I learned that the STUDIOS provide the versions and tracks of the film to them, I realized that either watching VAR on a 16x9 screen or 2.40:1 fixed on a 2.40:1 screen IS the director's intent. Switching the IMAX scenes to a smaller screen on a cinemascope screen defeats the purpose of the larger/taller aspect of the IMAX shots which is not the intent of the director. Setting movies like Top Gun Maverick, Aquaman or The Dark Knight to a fixed 2.40:1 ratio is fine as the director framed all the shots to be shown in 2.40:1 because most actual cinemas are equipped with Cinemascope screens.


----------



## desray2k

Guys, today I watched Thor Love and Thunder on Disney Plus on my Apple TV and this show supposed to have variable aspect ratio that cycle between 1.90 (IMAX shot) and the normal 2.35:1 but the Lumagen is unable to detect the changes in variable aspect ratio when the scene switched from 2.35:1 to 1.90 (IMAX shot). Anyone have this issue with streaming platform? The instant AR switching works flawlessly on my Zidoo UHD3000 media player and my Oppo 203.


----------



## 187crew003

BrightSideHT said:


> Yes, on Kaleidescape, Star Trek into the Darkness has a fixed aspect ratio of 2.40:1. To get the VAR version you'll need the 4K disk... The opening scene has aggressive VAR jumping back and forth so it serves as a fantastic demo of the power of the Lumagen but like many here I'm not a fan of VAR. I've had many conversations with Kaleidescape and once I learned that the STUDIOS provide the versions and tracks of the film to them, I realized that either watching VAR on a 16x9 screen or 2.40:1 fixed on a 2.40:1 screen IS the director's intent. Switching the IMAX scenes to a smaller screen on a cinemascope screen defeats the purpose of the larger/taller aspect of the IMAX shots which is not the intent of the director. Setting movies like Top Gun Maverick, Aquaman or The Dark Knight to a fixed 2.40:1 ratio is fine as the director framed all the shots to be shown in 2.40:1 because most actual cinemas are equipped with Cinemascope screens.


i actually mentioned this a few pages back. IMAX shots are REQUIRED to be framed in scope so no IMPORTANT information is lost if masked off. so keeping it 2.4 is not masking off a picaso painting


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> Exactly. I think IMAX is buying themselves into movie productions just to spread their system.
> Same with IMAX and Disney+. So unfortunately, i´m not with @jrp that variable ar has failed in the market, i´m afraid we´re just at the beginning... And those viewers like us with a scope screen and/or masking system are just a very tiny fraction of the enduser market, so our opinion doesn´t count very much...


At least Disney gives us both versions though. Kudos to them!


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> Guys, today I watched Thor Love and Thunder on Disney Plus on my Apple TV and this show supposed to have variable aspect ratio that cycle between 1.90 (IMAX shot) and the normal 2.35:1 but the Lumagen is unable to detect the changes in variable aspect ratio when the scene switched from 2.35:1 to 1.90 (IMAX shot). Anyone have this issue with streaming platform? The instant AR switching works flawlessly on my Zidoo UHD3000 media player and my Oppo 203.


Are you sure you were watching the imax version? Disney allows you to select which version to watch.


----------



## Clark Burk

desray2k said:


> Guys, today I watched Thor Love and Thunder on Disney Plus on my Apple TV and this show supposed to have variable aspect ratio that cycle between 1.90 (IMAX shot) and the normal 2.35:1 but the Lumagen is unable to detect the changes in variable aspect ratio when the scene switched from 2.35:1 to 1.90 (IMAX shot). Anyone have this issue with streaming platform? The instant AR switching works flawlessly on my Zidoo UHD3000 media player and my Oppo 203.


Are you sure you selected the imax enhanced version? The other version does not change aspect ratio.
Edit: looks like Kris and I posted the same time.


----------



## Jue Liang

@jrp It just came to my mind that I would be very happy if Lumagen can add ADL-contrast test patterns. It would be even better if it includes ADL patterns at different white/grey levels. I have been using my PC for ADL-contrast test. The S&M disc also has the ADL patterns but only at 100% white level.


----------



## fatherom

187crew003 said:


> IMAX shots are REQUIRED to be framed in scope so no IMPORTANT information is lost if masked off. so keeping it 2.4 is not masking off a picaso painting


This is mostly true. But there are some scenes in some films (Aquaman, Tenet, and others come to mind) where center cropping the IMAX image to 2.4 may not be the most ideal framing. There is definitely a 2.4 framing that can be extracted from most (if not all) IMAX scenes but it may not always be vertically centered within the larger imax frame.


----------



## jbrinegar

187crew003 said:


> i actually mentioned this a few pages back. IMAX shots are REQUIRED to be framed in scope so no IMPORTANT information is lost if masked off. so keeping it 2.4 is not masking off a picaso painting


I agree for most films. 

But some films are not scope safe. STID and aquaman are two that come to mind. If you leave in 2.4, youll miss some key details being cut off at the bottom of the screen like location titles


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

OK, a plea for help setting up my LRP for the LRP for Dummies set (me): I typically use motorized lens memories for moving to/from scope and 16:9. I have memories set up for 2.0 as well. In the past with these VAR films, I have set my lens memory to 2.0 IMAX and then watched the movie with constant width. I don't know how to set up the LRP for instant aspect change or what lens memory to use. I suspect that I will only need this for Maverick (which I haven't watched yet) and Nolan and Snyder films in my collection. Am I to understand that I could se my lens memory for 2.35 and the LRP will adjust the framing to 1.85 without changing my lens position? If so, then do I want to set the projector up for 2.35, make sure it is in top focus and then leave it there? TIA from the Dummy.


----------



## ajbriones

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Am I to understand that I could se my lens memory for 2.35 and the LRP will adjust the framing to 1.85 without changing my lens position? If so, then do I want to set the projector up for 2.35, make sure it is in top focus and then leave it there? TIA from the Dummy.


This is what I do. I set my projector to 2.40 wide for my scope screen, use screen blanking on my projector to mask out the image above/below the mask, and then set the LRP to do all the scaling. I used this guide (fixed zoom method): http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0016_WidescreenWithoutAnamorphicLens_071416.pdf

EDIT: Also,I would not have been able to figure this out on my own, so you're not alone. What's nice about using the LRP to do all the scaling is that 1) it's much faster than changing lens memory and 2) in my experience with my projector, the lens memory doesn't come back exactly where it was before and it's off by just enough to be a bit annoying.


----------



## bosler.bruce

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I typically use motorized lens memories for moving to/from scope and 16:9.


I have a scope screen. My installer/calibrator told me not to move the lens. He said the motorized memories are good but not perfect. That I would have to adjust them periodically. Instead, he said I'm paying big bucks for the Lumagen to do things for me, let it do what it was designed to do. I don't recall exactly how it is set up, but I never change anything on my projector. The Lumagen just makes it fit my screen.


----------



## audioguy

bosler.bruce said:


> I have a scope screen. My installer/calibrator told me not to move the lens. He said the motorized memories are good but not perfect. That I would have to adjust them periodically. Instead, he said I'm paying big bucks for the Lumagen to do things for me, let it do what it was designed to do. I don't recall exactly how it is set up, but I never change anything on my projector. The Lumagen just makes it fit my screen.


And the lens motors are just one more thing to break !!


----------



## Kris Deering

jbrinegar said:


> I agree for most films.
> 
> But some films are not scope safe. STID and aquaman are two that come to mind. If you leave in 2.4, youll miss some key details being cut off at the bottom of the screen like location titles


So just watch them in fixed 16x9 since they were setup for that type of display.


----------



## Kris Deering

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> OK, a plea for help setting up my LRP for the LRP for Dummies set (me): I typically use motorized lens memories for moving to/from scope and 16:9. I have memories set up for 2.0 as well. In the past with these VAR films, I have set my lens memory to 2.0 IMAX and then watched the movie with constant width. I don't know how to set up the LRP for instant aspect change or what lens memory to use. I suspect that I will only need this for Maverick (which I haven't watched yet) and Nolan and Snyder films in my collection. Am I to understand that I could se my lens memory for 2.35 and the LRP will adjust the framing to 1.85 without changing my lens position? If so, then do I want to set the projector up for 2.35, make sure it is in top focus and then leave it there? TIA from the Dummy.


I do full custom Lumagen setups for people that didn’t get proper support from their dealer. Can remotely optimize the Lumagen and the rest of your setup. Reach out if you’d like to take advantage.


----------



## fatherom

Kris Deering said:


> So just watch them in fixed 16x9 since they were setup for that type of display.


And I definitely do. But the OP was saying that all AR-changing films are scope safe.


----------



## jbrinegar

Kris Deering said:


> So just watch them in fixed 16x9 since they were setup for that type of display.


To each their own. I prefer to watch these type with instant auto aspect changing CIH.


----------



## Scorpion66

desray2k said:


> Guys, today I watched Thor Love and Thunder on Disney Plus on my Apple TV and this show supposed to have variable aspect ratio that cycle between 1.90 (IMAX shot) and the normal 2.35:1 but the Lumagen is unable to detect the changes in variable aspect ratio when the scene switched from 2.35:1 to 1.90 (IMAX shot). Anyone have this issue with streaming platform? The instant AR switching works flawlessly on my Zidoo UHD3000 media player and my Oppo 203.


I can confirm the same behavior on Disney +, Thor and Thunder at minute 10:15 no switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1 occurs. Source: ATV 4K 3gen.
I can see the same behaviour also with Panasonic 424 with Top Gun Maverick at the beginning of the movie. There is also no switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1 occurs. The input info shows 1.9:1 but the picture is stretchet to 2.4:1.
Lumagen FW: 110222


----------



## bobof

Have you guys tried the later build of SW linked by Jim? There were some issues with the first build at least for me with some of the serial reporting not kicking in. It's worth making sure you are trying the latest build to make sure it hasn't been fixed already.
Download here:


Lumagen





jrp said:


> Two small bug fixes in the following:
> 
> * Beta 110322- Posted 111622 Added a delay to lengthen time that auto aspect change is displayed when Auto aspect status is set to 'show' in Aspect Setup: Options menu. Fix for incorrectly reporting detected auto aspect on rs232 on input mode change. Please continue sending your detailed feedback to support@lumagen.com*


----------



## Scorpion66

Same behavior with 110322. No switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1, picture stretched.


----------



## bobof

Scorpion66 said:


> Same behavior with 110322. No switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1, picture stretched.


Fair enough, email [email protected] with details so they can work on it. Make sure to include details about refresh rate settings etc, as my issue wasn't obvious until everything about my setup was recreated.


----------



## Kris Deering

So


Scorpion66 said:


> Same behavior with 110322. No switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1, picture stretched.


Sounds like you either have NLS on or auto aspect not on. I’ve demonstrated the beginning of top gun like 3 times in the last 48 hours with zero issues.


----------



## ajbriones

Scorpion66 said:


> Same behavior with 110322. No switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1, picture stretched.


I believe this will also not change if you have Sticky Aspect set to ON.


----------



## by96

bosler.bruce said:


> I have a scope screen. My installer/calibrator told me not to move the lens. He said the motorized memories are good but not perfect. That I would have to adjust them periodically. Instead, he said I'm paying big bucks for the Lumagen to do things for me, let it do what it was designed to do. I don't recall exactly how it is set up, but I never change anything on my projector. The Lumagen just makes it fit my screen.


I couldn't agree more. I have a bottom-up 16:9 screen, so I have the ability to raise the screen to any height I want, like for a 2.35:1 image. I used to use the JVC's lens memory to move the image down when watching scope movies and then back up for 16:9 images. However, each and every time, I had to make small adjustments, as the memory was never spot on. Now with the Lumagen, I leave the JVC alone and the LRP does the movement, and it is spot on 100%. I have not had to adjust the image position once since getting the Lumagen.


----------



## Scorpion66

Kris Deering said:


> So
> 
> Sounds like you either have NLS on or auto aspect not on. I’ve demonstrated the beginning of top gun like 3 times in the last 48 hours with zero issues.


NLS is definitely off and auto aspect is definitely on. The switching between 2.4:1 and 16:9 works perfectly.
Here are my settings
















































PS: sticky aspect on or off has no effect to the behavior.


----------



## Kris Deering

Scorpion66 said:


> NLS is definitely off and auto aspect is definitely on. The switching between 2.4:1 and 16:9 works perfectly.
> Here are my settings
> View attachment 3360779
> 
> View attachment 3360777
> 
> View attachment 3360774
> 
> View attachment 3360778
> 
> View attachment 3360775
> 
> View attachment 3360776
> 
> PS: sticky aspect on or off has no effect to the behavior.


Let Lumagen know.


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> I believe this will also not change if you have Sticky Aspect set to ON.


That shouldn't make any difference unless you've also made the AR stick by pressing the appropriate AR button after starting playback. It doesn't stick itself.


----------



## ajbriones

bobof said:


> That shouldn't make any difference unless you've also made the AR stick by pressing the appropriate AR button after starting playback. It doesn't stick itself.


Oh, interesting! What's the function of Sticky Aspect? I may have interpreted it incorrectly. I usually have it set to OFF and use the Aspect Enable/Disable buttons.


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> Oh, interesting! What's the function of Sticky Aspect? I may have interpreted it incorrectly. I usually have it set to OFF and use the Aspect Enable/Disable buttons.


If you enable sticky aspect, when you press an aspect button, the AR sticks until such a time as something major happens (which I think means an input change, or a frame rate / dynamic range change, etc). After that major change, AR detection resumes.


----------



## desray2k

Clark Burk said:


> Are you sure you selected the imax enhanced version? The other version does not change aspect ratio.
> Edit: looks like Kris and I posted the same time.


LOL. I will go and check out one more time if there is another version. 😂


----------



## desray2k

Scorpion66 said:


> I can confirm the same behavior on Disney +, Thor and Thunder at minute 10:15 no switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1 occurs. Source: ATV 4K 3gen.
> I can see the same behaviour also with Panasonic 424 with Top Gun Maverick at the beginning of the movie. There is also no switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1 occurs. The input info shows 1.9:1 but the picture is stretchet to 2.4:1.
> Lumagen FW: 110222


I'm also using Apple TV (3rd Gen)...your problem is same as mine. I am also quite puzzled why this is so.


----------



## desray2k

Scorpion66 said:


> NLS is definitely off and auto aspect is definitely on. The switching between 2.4:1 and 16:9 works perfectly.
> Here are my settings
> View attachment 3360779
> 
> View attachment 3360777
> 
> View attachment 3360774
> 
> View attachment 3360778
> 
> View attachment 3360775
> 
> View attachment 3360776
> 
> PS: sticky aspect on or off has no effect to the behavior.


So I'm not crazy as your settings exactly same as mine. But I can't explain why the instant AR feature worked on my zidoo and oppo using the exact same settings but produces different results.

Hope Jim can advise on this...I wonder doing a reset and then reload the settings will help with this issue we are facing?


----------



## ajbriones

bobof said:


> If you enable sticky aspect, when you press an aspect button, the AR sticks until such a time as something major happens (which I think means an input change, or a frame rate / dynamic range change, etc). After that major change, AR detection resumes.


By that definition, it should actually be OFF if you want instant aspect to work, yes? For example, if I have my ATV4k set to match frame rate and match dynamic range and have the menu set to 4k60 SDR, if sticky aspect is ON and I play a variable aspect movie, the LRP will detect and set aspect once it detects that the ATV has changed to 4k 23.98 HDR and will NOT change aspect again until i go back to the ATV menu.

At least this is how I interpret how this function works.

If that’s the case, then Sticky Aspect must be OFF or instant aspect will not work. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> By that definition, it should actually be OFF if you want instant aspect to work, yes? For example, if I have my ATV4k set to match frame rate and match dynamic range and have the menu set to 4k60 SDR, if sticky aspect is ON and I play a variable aspect movie, the LRP will detect and set aspect once it detects that the ATV has changed to 4k 23.98 HDR and will NOT change aspect again until i go back to the ATV menu.
> 
> At least this is how I interpret how this function works.


No, it's not related. Sticky override only takes effect* after* you press an AR button on the remote (eg 2.4). Until you do that, it performs normal auto aspect detection. Once you press the button, it locks the chosen AR until a "major" event.


----------



## raoul

Consensus seems to be that doing all the HDR->SDR and Scaling work via a Lumagen is better than relying on the internal processing on the Sony (or even JVC) projectors. I get that it's better for some of the work but surely it can't access features like laser dimming to improve the image. 

The Lumagen product line is pretty confusing right now. What am I looking for when considering a Lumagen to pair with a laser 4k Sony/JVC? 

R-S


----------



## Kris Deering

raoul said:


> Consensus seems to be that doing all the HDR->SDR and Scaling work via a Lumagen is better than relying on the internal processing on the Sony (or even JVC) projectors. I get that it's better for some of the work but surely it can't access features like laser dimming to improve the image.
> 
> The Lumagen product line is pretty confusing right now. What am I looking for when considering a Lumagen to pair with a laser 4k Sony/JVC?
> 
> R-S


You should work with a dealer that can explain the benefits and go over the pros and cons based on your setup. They should be able to answer your questions and help you make an informed decision. Or reach out to Lumagen and ask them.


----------



## desray2k

OK. I have figured out what's the problem with the RP failing to lock on to variable AR change. It turns out there is one crucial setting that need to be turned on.

*The fix is as follows:*
*Output>Styles>HDMI Format>ContentFlag>Set Pass Source Content Flag to "Yes". Mine was previously set to "No". Make sure to save the settings after that.*









I will recommend to save the Config settings so that it can be reused in case you need to load the configuration to a new RP.


----------



## bobof

desray2k said:


> OK. I have figured out what's the problem with the RP failing to lock on to variable AR change. It turns out there is one crucial setting that need to be turned on.
> 
> *The fix is as follows:*
> *Output>Styles>HDMI Format>ContentFlag>Set Pass Source Content Flag to "Yes". Mine was previously set to "No". Make sure to save the settings after that.*
> 
> I will recommend to save the Config settings so that it can be reused in case you need to load the configuration to a new RP.


I'm not doubting you, but it sounds odd, I have no idea what that flag would be or why it would be important (there is mention of a Graphics flag in the Auto aspect page, but not a content flag). Do you also have "Use Graphics flag" set on your auto aspect menu?

I can't see that content flag explained in the manual.


----------



## Scorpion66

desray2k said:


> OK. I have figured out what's the problem with the RP failing to lock on to variable AR change. It turns out there is one crucial setting that need to be turned on.
> 
> *The fix is as follows:*
> *Output>Styles>HDMI Format>ContentFlag>Set Pass Source Content Flag to "Yes". Mine was previously set to "No". Make sure to save the settings after that.*
> 
> View attachment 3360945
> 
> 
> I will recommend to save the Config settings so that it can be reused in case you need to load the configuration to a new RP.


Thank you for the figured out. I will try it at the afternoon but I am still wondering why it is necessary to set, because I tested Tenet UHD yesterday and it was at any time working with switching between 2.0 / 2.2 / 1.78 / 2.4 without issues.

PS: now I can fully understand the position of Jim regarding using of auto aspect during the Film. Tenet was terrible to watch with auto aspect. I suggest up now also to stay at constant 2.4 and use auto aspect only for menu and for content with constant aspect.


----------



## desray2k

bobof said:


> I'm not doubting you, but it sounds odd, I have no idea what that flag would be or why it would be important (there is mention of a Graphics flag in the Auto aspect page, but not a content flag). Do you also have "Use Graphics flag" set on your auto aspect menu?
> 
> I can't see that content flag explained in the manual.


I'm also doubting myself when I stumbled across this option. But it did solve the problem for me. Maybe someone here with higher brain power can explain 🤔 why this option does it for the instant AR to work for streaming? And no, I did not enable "Use Graphic flag".


----------



## desray2k

Scorpion66 said:


> I am still wondering why it is necessary to set, because I tested Tenet UHD yesterday and it was at any time working with switching between 2.0 / 2.2 / 1.78 / 2.4 without issues.


That makes the 2 of us...I have no idea as well. You can try and see if it works for you. I could have unwittingly enabled some other options that I didn't realise myself. Hopefully Jim or someone can provide a solution and explanation..


----------



## desray2k

Here's the settings I used under Inputs. For "Sticky aspect override", I set to *Off" but if user wish to watch a movie with variable AR in a desired aspect ratio of say 2.35:1 format, then make sure to turn this "On".


----------



## EVH78

Anybody using a Harmony Elite remote with their Radiance Pro? I am looking for the IR code for 2.40 aspect ratio which is unfortunately missing in the Harmony database. Since I do not own the new remote I cannot use the learn function.


----------



## Nima

The code is "ALT" and then "2:35" you have to put that sequence into the Harmony. Works like it should. I have a 2.40 screen and just use that and 1:85 and 16:9. No auto switching nothing.


----------



## EVH78

Thank you, I know the workaround, but sometimes I just need it at the tip of a single button / command like overruling auto aspect changes.
edit: Misunderstood, put a sequence there, thx!


----------



## jbrinegar

EVH78 said:


> Thank you, I know the workaround, but sometimes I just need it at the tip of a single button / command like overruling auto aspect changes.





EVH78 said:


> Thank you, I know the workaround, but sometimes I just need it at the tip of a single button / command like overruling auto aspect changes.


I went into my harmony software and created a single button press for “alt + 2.35” for the 2.4 aspect ratio, has worked perfectly so far


----------



## EVH78

Great, how did you achieve that? In which Harmony menu?

Edit: Found it! Thx!


----------



## BrightSideHT

jbrinegar said:


> I agree for most films.
> 
> But some films are not scope safe. STID and aquaman are two that come to mind. If you leave in 2.4, youll miss some key details being cut off at the bottom of the screen like location titles





jbrinegar said:


> I agree for most films.
> 
> But some films are not scope safe. STID and aquaman are two that come to mind. If you leave in 2.4, youll miss some key details being cut off at the bottom of the screen like location titles


I just watched Aquaman last week and loved it in 2.40:1. Until I saw your reply I’d forgotten all about the location text that I was missing by digitally masking my screen. To me that says a lot about which is the lesser of the two evils. I’ve always found the VAR on Aquaman to be a bit distracting. It’s beautiful when you’re in the IMAX scenes but when you come out it’s disappointing and while you’re trying to get absorbed into the movie you wind up wishing it was back in IMAX. This thought process in the middle of a movie isn’t what any director intends I’m sure but for people with large projected images it is an issue. Setting the digital masking, and this my velvet masking, really allowed me to get absorbed into the movie and enjoy it with out distraction. Just my two cents.


----------



## DVD MAN

EVH78 said:


> Anybody using a Harmony Elite remote with their Radiance Pro? I am looking for the IR code for 2.40 aspect ratio which is unfortunately missing in the Harmony database. Since I do not own the new remote I cannot use the learn function.


I have the same issue with the Harmony Elite. I do have the new remote and it works perfectly when sending the command from it but when I learn the command from the Lumagen remote it just does not work.
I do have a work around.


----------



## jbrinegar

BrightSideHT said:


> I just watched Aquaman last week and loved it in 2.40:1. Until I saw your reply I’d forgotten all about the location text that I was missing by digitally masking my screen. To me that says a lot about which is the lesser of the two evils. I’ve always found the VAR on Aquaman to be a bit distracting. It’s beautiful when you’re in the IMAX scenes but when you come out it’s disappointing and while you’re trying to get absorbed into the movie you wind up wishing it was back in IMAX. This thought process in the middle of a movie isn’t what any director intends I’m sure but for people with large projected images it is an issue. Setting the digital masking, and this my velvet masking, really allowed me to get absorbed into the movie and enjoy it with out distraction. Just my two cents.


The other thing about “aqua man” in particular, is that there’s just not a lot of quick back and forth changes. When the movie changes from scope to imax, it stays in imax for a long long time. With that being the case, I think the instant aspect switching works well for me.

For a movie with lots of distracting fast back and forth changes, I prefer to keep it locked it scope the whole time

Totally a personal choice, but I’m glad to have the choice


----------



## RobScreene

I’m loving the instant auto aspect. I like scope at the bottom of my 16:9 screen so no lower black bar.


----------



## scrowe

raoul said:


> Consensus seems to be that doing all the HDR->SDR and Scaling work via a Lumagen is better than relying on the internal processing on the Sony (or even JVC) projectors. I get that it's better for some of the work but surely it can't access features like laser dimming to improve the image.
> 
> The Lumagen product line is pretty confusing right now. What am I looking for when considering a Lumagen to pair with a laser 4k Sony/JVC?
> 
> R-S


Every Lumagen Model has the same processing power and runs the same software.

All you need to decide is :-
a) How Many Input HDMI ports - for all the video playback devices you have - (all should be 18Ghz capable these days)
b) How many Output HDMI ports - for each TV and/or Projection display device (there are some PJs where only a 9GHz output is recommended)
c) Any Lumagen dealer should then be able to quote the right model
d) Budget for high-quality 3m+ cables for inpuits (as recommended by Lumagen
e) Ensure your PJ HDMI is well-specified (Fibre for 10M+)
f) There are a couple of high-end Lumagen models with higher specced components to eliminate noise/interference, that you might want to consider, depends on your budget.


----------



## Scorpion66

desray2k said:


> OK. I have figured out what's the problem with the RP failing to lock on to variable AR change. It turns out there is one crucial setting that need to be turned on.
> 
> *The fix is as follows:*
> *Output>Styles>HDMI Format>ContentFlag>Set Pass Source Content Flag to "Yes". Mine was previously set to "No". Make sure to save the settings after that.*
> View attachment 3360945
> 
> 
> I will recommend to save the Config settings so that it can be reused in case you need to load the configuration to a new RP.


I tried your suggestion now, but unfortunately it doesn’t solve my problem. The 1.9:1 content remains stretched to 2.4:1. All other aspect ratios are working properly excluding 1.9:1.

PS: I just received the reply from Patrick. He could reproduce the behavior. It will be solved with the next release.


----------



## ajbriones

jbrinegar said:


> I went into my harmony software and created a single button press for “alt + 2.35” for the 2.4 aspect ratio, has worked perfectly so far


Has anyone figured out how to get Enable/Disable Aspect buttons on the Harmony Elite? I am unable to get it to learn those buttons.


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> Has anyone figured out how to get Enable/Disable Aspect buttons on the Harmony Elite? I am unable to get it to learn those buttons.


The following key sequences could be programmed that pre-date the new remote:
*Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it. These commands can be issued via rs232 using the ascii characters for these 2 remote buttons.*


----------



## jbrinegar

ajbriones said:


> Has anyone figured out how to get Enable/Disable Aspect buttons on the Harmony Elite? I am unable to get it to learn those buttons.


Like Bobof suggested, I have a one button push of “alt-clear” on my harmony to disable as well as “alt-NLS” to renable. Works well for me


----------



## DigitalAV

FWIW-

I have a Harmony IR remote (non-hub) that can learn IR commands from my Lumagen remote, then I'm able to use that to manually teach the IR commands to my Harmony hub. I have no idea why the Harmony hub is unable to recognize/learn IR commands from the Lumagen remote directly. Probably any cheap IR learning universal device can be used as said "middle man."

Hope this helps anyone needing to learn missing commands from the Lumagen remote to a Harmony hub (the included 4242 in the Harmony hub database doesn't even have an Exit button)


----------



## raoul

scrowe said:


> Every Lumagen Model has the same processing power and runs the same software.
> 
> All you need to decide is :-
> a) How Many Input HDMI ports - for all the video playback devices you have - (all should be 18Ghz capable these days)
> b) How many Output HDMI ports - for each TV and/or Projection display device (there are some PJs where only a 9GHz output is recommended)
> c) Any Lumagen dealer should then be able to quote the right model
> d) Budget for high-quality 3m+ cables for inpuits (as recommended by Lumagen
> e) Ensure your PJ HDMI is well-specified (Fibre for 10M+)
> f) There are a couple of high-end Lumagen models with higher specced components to eliminate noise/interference, that you might want to consider, depends on your budget.


I would put the lumagen between the AVR and projector. My AVR just does pass-through. I read that you're supposed to use the Lumagen to do the switching but I don't really want to do that either. I'd rather just use the AVR.


----------



## Hitechee

DigitalAV said:


> FWIW-
> 
> I have a Harmony IR remote (non-hub) that can learn IR commands from my Lumagen remote, then I'm able to use that to manually teach the IR commands to my Harmony hub. I have no idea why the Harmony hub is unable to recognize/learn IR commands from the Lumagen remote directly. Probably any cheap IR learning universal device can be used as said "middle man."
> 
> Hope this helps anyone needing to learn missing commands from the Lumagen remote to a Harmony hub (the included 4242 in the Harmony hub database doesn't even have an Exit button)


I use the Lumagen Radiance XE from the Harmony database and I believe it allows me to program anything in the Harmony Elite that the RP remote can do.


----------



## Erod

desray2k said:


> Same here...I'm loving this as well. I'm looking forward to the DTM pipeline improvements and see how far we can stretch LRP. This device keeps getting better like a fine wine over the years. Nothing comes remotely close to Lumagen's support of their products!!!
> 
> I'm also using a 2.35:1 AR screen. Switching is instantaneous. Here's a sample clip of Chris Nolan's, Tenet.


Wow, that would drive me nuts. I barely notice it on my 16:9 screen when it just gets taller, but that is very jarring to me to watch the size of the people and faces get bigger and smaller like that.


----------



## Erod

When is the DeSat update expected to be released?


----------



## ajbriones

jbrinegar said:


> Like Bobof suggested, I have a one button push of “alt-clear” on my harmony to disable as well as “alt-NLS” to renable. Works well for me


This works great, thanks!

EDIT: Just in case this helps anyone else, I mapped the Harmony Elite’s REC button to turn on the enable aspect detection sequence with a short press and disable with long press for all my activities (Kaleidescape, HTPC, Physical Media and ATV). It‘s so nice to have it handy!


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Erod said:


> When is the DeSat update expected to be released?


I believe that @jrp has said December is the goal.


----------



## Clark Burk

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I believe that @jrp has said December is the goal.


Yes, hopefully it will be a really nice Christmas present from Lumagen to its customers.


----------



## GassiousPassius

I find it truly amazing that Lumagen continues to improve their firmware to get the best possible performance for their customers. Lumagen even listens and implements many of their customer's requests. Many other companies would have said that if you want the "new" features you would have to buy a new machine. Kuddos and keep up the great work!


----------



## scrowe

raoul said:


> I would put the lumagen between the AVR and projector. My AVR just does pass-through. I read that you're supposed to use the Lumagen to do the switching but I don't really want to do that either. I'd rather just use the AVR.


It’s not really that you are supposed to, just recommended, but many do AVR as switcher especially as pass thru on modern high-end do now pass thru the video unmolested, which was not the case in times past.

Sounds like you only need a 4242.


----------



## audioguy

GassiousPassius said:


> Lumagen even listens and implements many of their customer's requests.


 Totally agree. There are a few others that come to mind, like, for example, Trinnov. So sad that another company that bills itself as selling a "Premier Product" (Kaleidescape) simply refuses to do the same.


----------



## bjorg

​


GassiousPassius said:


> I find it truly amazing that Lumagen continues to improve their firmware to get the best possible performance for their customers. Lumagen even listens and implements many of their customer's requests. Many other companies would have said that if you want the "new" features you would have to buy a new machine. Kuddos and keep up the great work!


It would make a lot of sense to put the updates behind a subscription. For example, when you buy it new, you get 2 years of updates included, but after that, an annual fee is needed. I mean, I pay annually for Adobe Acrobat and it has 10x less impact on my life than Lumagen. Why should they leave money on the table?


----------



## DigitalAV

bjorg said:


> ​It would make a lot of sense to put the updates behind a subscription. For example, when you buy it new, you get 2 years of updates included, but after that, an annual fee is needed. I mean, I pay annually for Adobe Acrobat and it has 10x less impact on my life than Lumagen. Why should they leave money on the table?


"I want to pay more money" is an odd stance


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I think lumagen should focus on a cheaper solution. A single input and output in a smaller box. You could strip down some of the features and leave in DTM and aspect ratio control for anamorphic screens / lenses.


----------



## danielrg

I'm considering a Lumagen - probably used.

I have two 4K sources - a Roku Ultra and Panasonic UB820. I'd be feeding a JVC X790 (RS540) projector video directly, and want to feed the audio separately to my Marantz SR7009 (which is 1080p video only). I want it for the UHD tone mapping (which isn't so great on X790), and for separate audio out to the AVR, and for switching between the two 4K sources easily.

Is the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 the one I'd want to get? Does it automatically support 18Gbps (e.g. 4K/60p UHD)?


----------



## desray2k

bjorg said:


> ​It would make a lot of sense to put the updates behind a subscription. For example, when you buy it new, you get 2 years of updates included, but after that, an annual fee is needed. I mean, I pay annually for Adobe Acrobat and it has 10x less impact on my life than Lumagen. Why should they leave money on the table?


Unike Apple and Samsung that roll out new models every year, Lumagen is not a company that subscribed to the concept of planned obsolescence. I can see the company culture focusing on one product line (video processing) that deliver the best in industry standard for home cinema and professionals. Rolling out features to differentiate itself in the market (which is not many to begin with) make better business sense than coming out with new product with incremental improvements ments every 1 to 2 years and have end users to pay for a subscription to get new features. LRP is a very niche product and only enthusiasts and those who want the best in PQ in their setup will appreciate. Subscription based concept probably not going to work well for Lumagen imo.


----------



## danielrg

danielrg said:


> I'm considering a Lumagen - probably used.
> 
> I have two 4K sources - a Roku Ultra and Panasonic UB820. I'd be feeding a JVC X790 (RS540) projector video directly, and want to feed the audio separately to my Marantz SR7009 (which is 1080p video only). I want it for the UHD tone mapping (which isn't so great on X790), and for separate audio out to the AVR, and for switching between the two 4K sources easily.
> 
> Is the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 the one I'd want to get? Does it automatically support 18Gbps (e.g. 4K/60p UHD)?


Replying to myself - do some people end up using the Lumagen for ALL their video sources, even 1080p? Sounds like it has great upscaling and other features that benefit 1080p video too. In that case maybe I'd want to add a couple 1080p sources to it as well, and have my AVR stop even bothering with video processing?

I see a number of units that are 2U (2 rack units) use for sale. But on the Lumagen website, all the Radiance Pro units look to be 1U. Are the 2U units older? Do they still support the same features as the newer 1U units?


----------



## EVH78

danielrg said:


> I'm considering a Lumagen - probably used.
> 
> I have two 4K sources - a Roku Ultra and Panasonic UB820. I'd be feeding a JVC X790 (RS540) projector video directly, and want to feed the audio separately to my Marantz SR7009 (which is 1080p video only). I want it for the UHD tone mapping (which isn't so great on X790), and for separate audio out to the AVR, and for switching between the two 4K sources easily.
> 
> Is the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 the one I'd want to get? Does it automatically support 18Gbps (e.g. 4K/60p UHD)?


Yes, the 4242 is the entry model which has 4 inputs and two outputs. The 18 Gb model has 1 Video and 1 Audio out, the 9 Gb card has two full A/V outs. You can upgrade cards easily yourself.


----------



## scrowe

danielrg said:


> Replying to myself - do some people end up using the Lumagen for ALL their video sources, even 1080p? Sounds like it has great upscaling and other features that benefit 1080p video too. In that case maybe I'd want to add a couple 1080p sources to it as well, and have my AVR stop even bothering with video processing?
> 
> I see a number of units that are 2U (2 rack units) use for sale. But on the Lumagen website, all the Radiance Pro units look to be 1U. Are the 2U units older? Do they still support the same features as the newer 1U units?


Yes, the older 2U Pro units still support the same software and features. Personally I would contact Lumagen directly and ask about a local distributor. Many clients recently have been upgrading to the 5x series, and there may be trade-in models available in the official channels that come warranty-backed, or they may be able to offer an extended warranty.


----------



## Naiera

bjorg said:


> ​It would make a lot of sense to put the updates behind a subscription. For example, when you buy it new, you get 2 years of updates included, but after that, an annual fee is needed. I mean, I pay annually for Adobe Acrobat and it has 10x less impact on my life than Lumagen. Why should they leave money on the table?


I pay for enough subscriptions already


----------



## Naiera

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I think lumagen should focus on a cheaper solution. A single input and output in a smaller box. You could strip down some of the features and leave in DTM and aspect ratio control for anamorphic screens / lenses.


They already did that in the 1080p days and probably remember how well or not that went.


----------



## bobof

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I think lumagen should focus on a cheaper solution. A single input and output in a smaller box. You could strip down some of the features and leave in DTM and aspect ratio control for anamorphic screens / lenses.


I can't see it making much sense. They already did have a compact Pro unit, and a 4240 unit wih less inputs.

The bulk of the cost of the product is in the FPGA device. Lumagen achieve a massive economy of development effort by having all their Pro units using the same FPGA binary. Removing features implies you think there might be a saving by using a smaller FPGA device; however you have to re-do the synthesis for different size devices every single time you do an update, so cost savings would in all likelihood dwarfed by the effort required to achieve good timing on two different FPGA devices.

Who would such a cheap unit be competing with? Not the Envy, Lumagen already have product that are much more cost-effective than those. There isn't really anyone lower down in the market. Say they do a load of effort, shave a bit off the cost - how many folk are there that couldn't / wouldn't buy before, but now will? And how many folk who were buying further up the range might just save a bit of cash and buy further down? I'd imagine the Lumagen Radiance Pro - like many other product families - work on a "blended margin structure" - where not all products make the same margin, and as a whole the product range makes good for the manufacturer when the margins of all the product sales are accounted for.

This is a niche market, that niche - people inclined to add a video processor - doesn't get much bigger just because of cheaper product availability. You can look at how many folk making much cheaper video processors in the past have failed to see evidence of that (EEcolor, DVDO, Darbee, etc etc).


----------



## Naiera

danielrg said:


> I'm considering a Lumagen - probably used.
> 
> I have two 4K sources - a Roku Ultra and Panasonic UB820. I'd be feeding a JVC X790 (RS540) projector video directly, and want to feed the audio separately to my Marantz SR7009 (which is 1080p video only). I want it for the UHD tone mapping (which isn't so great on X790), and for separate audio out to the AVR, and for switching between the two 4K sources easily.
> 
> Is the Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 the one I'd want to get? Does it automatically support 18Gbps (e.g. 4K/60p UHD)?


I believe you're on the right track. The 4242 comes with a video output and an audio output; I use the audio output on mine to feed an Amazon Basics HDMI audio extractor that then goes into my DAC.

I'm not sure if new scalers still come with 9G outputs from Jim, but if you're buying used you need to be aware that 18G input or output is/was not standard. I have found that you can make do with a 9G video output just fine; it's enough for 24Hz 4:2:2 HDR 4K video out. For input, though, you'll need at least one HDMI card with 18G (they come in pairs). Some players/streamers refuse to output 4K HDR if the recipient input isn't 18Gbps, even though 24Hz video output with all the bells and whistles doesn't necessarily need that. With my Apple TV 4K, I also found that while it worked on a 9G input, there were some issues that were fixed when I connected it to a 18G input on the LRP instead.

Note that you can also make do with one 18G input card (two 18Gbps HDMI input connections) and add an HDMI switch. This is how I actually have six 18G inputs and an additional two 9Gs  I have my Oppo BDP-103 and the Mac Mini (Roon server) connected to the 9G inputs.



danielrg said:


> Replying to myself - do some people end up using the Lumagen for ALL their video sources, even 1080p? Sounds like it has great upscaling and other features that benefit 1080p video too. In that case maybe I'd want to add a couple 1080p sources to it as well, and have my AVR stop even bothering with video processing?
> 
> I see a number of units that are 2U (2 rack units) use for sale. But on the Lumagen website, all the Radiance Pro units look to be 1U. Are the 2U units older? Do they still support the same features as the newer 1U units?


I use my LRP for video switching; I have no AVR. I know that's not a normal usage scenario 

You'll want to go for a 1U LRP. The 2U ones are old and noisy. The features are the same though.


----------



## audioguy

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I think lumagen should focus on a cheaper solution. A single input and output in a smaller box. You could strip down some of the features and leave in DTM and aspect ratio control for anamorphic screens / lenses.


I see that a bit differently. I would much prefer them to use all available resources to provide continuous improvement to the key, and excellent product they already have. And not sure how much cost would be reduced by reducing the number of input, outputs + "crippling" the existing code to make it have fewer features. And developing a NEW cost and feature reduced product sure isn't free.


----------



## audioguy

bjorg said:


> ​It would make a lot of sense to put the updates behind a subscription. For example, when you buy it new, you get 2 years of updates included, but after that, an annual fee is needed. I mean, I pay annually for Adobe Acrobat and it has 10x less impact on my life than Lumagen. Why should they leave money on the table?


The exact same thing could be said of Trinnov, but fortunately for their users, the don't.

And had Lumagen started their business model with that approach, that would be fine, but if there is one thing I have learned in life, consumers don't like the "take away" philosophy. I WAS getting continuous, free upgrades but NOW ("take away") you want me to pay for them? Roon has used a different approach. You could buy a life time subscription or annual. Too late and not a great idea for Lumagen (or any other company) to do a major shift in how they charge for their product. AND, since their only competitor doesn't do that, why would Lumagen want to provide more advantages to them?


----------



## Roland Janus

The new instant auto-aspect feature is great, in particular with a scope screen with Kodi, using 16:9 for its menus.
Two issues or questions though:

1. With the NLS-button now being a toogle, how can NLS be enabled/disabled directly? How with a Harmony remote?

2. The Pro sometimes switches to 1.85 instead of 16:9, like when pausing a movie, hence blocking the runtime information partially, enough to be unreadable. Can the detection be improved to recognize it's supposed to use 16:9?


----------



## bobof

Roland Janus said:


> 2. The Pro sometimes switches to 1.85 instead of 16:9, like when pausing a movie, hence blocking the runtime information partially, enough to be unreadable. Can the detection be improved to recognize it's supposed to use 16:9?


It's really interesting to see how different people's uses and hopes for such systems are. I've been trying to get Lumagen to have option to try and ignore (or at least, not react to quickly) those popups if possible, as for those of us with mechanical masks, it is something that causes a lot of mechanical wear if every time a seek bar is displayed on the screen the masks open up and then close on hiding, or vice-versa!

In my mind they seem like different things you'd like to detect where possible (best guess as to the video frame, vs everything that is on screen that would include overlays) and give the option to deal differently with each based on the screen system setup (ie fixed screen with digital zooming in Radiance only, vs a screen with moveable masks being driven by detection).

When I get a chance I'm going to try implementing some advanced logic in my control system. For instance, in my installation, when the framerate or dynamic range or input has changed it makes sense for the aspect detection to be automatic and instant, as it's clearly reflecting a change that you'd want to use. I'm considering making those changes the only ones that actually happen automatically (as they're guaranteed to be desireable), with a button press to trigger a single detection at other times, or some kind of smart enabling / disabling of auto aspect based on what commands are being sent to the player (though on a box with limited IR codes like the AppleTV, it's very hard to come up with a workable scheme for that).


----------



## docrog

danielrg said:


> I have two 4K sources - a Roku Ultra and Panasonic UB820. I'd be feeding a JVC X790 (RS540) projector video directly, and want to feed the audio separately to my Marantz SR7009 (*which is 1080p video only*).


The Marantz website seems to indicate that the SR7009 has full 4K passthrough capability. This is at odds with your posting. You might want to double check, as you'd have an additional option if it's 4K capable.


----------



## Erod

audioguy said:


> Totally agree. There are a few others that come to mind, like, for example, Trinnov. So sad that another company that bills itself as selling a "Premier Product" (Kaleidescape) simply refuses to do the same.


That's exactly why I haven't pulled the trigger on a K-Scape.


----------



## raoul

audioguy said:


> Totally agree. There are a few others that come to mind, like, for example, Trinnov. So sad that another company that bills itself as selling a "Premier Product" (Kaleidescape) simply refuses to do the same.


Don't get me started on Anthem.


----------



## Kris Deering

Scorpion66 said:


> Same behavior with 110322. No switching from 2.4:1 to 1.9:1, picture stretched.


Finally home. Just checked this with my appletv and had zero issues with this title on Disney plus.


----------



## desray2k

W


Scorpion66 said:


> I tried your suggestion now, but unfortunately it doesn’t solve my problem. The 1.9:1 content remains stretched to 2.4:1. All other aspect ratios are working properly excluding 1.9:1.
> 
> PS: I just received the reply from Patrick. He could reproduce the behavior. It will be solved with the next release.


That's odd. Mine now worked as intended but I'm glad Patrick is working on a solution for the upcoming release. I agreed with others here, I do not see why there is a need for me to trigger that feature under Output setting but somehow it fixed "my" problem with the instant AR on Disney Plus. I can't explain why and I don't have a definitive answer to that as well...LoL


----------



## danielrg

docrog said:


> The Marantz website seems to indicate that the SR7009 has full 4K passthrough capability. This is at odds with your posting. You might want to double check, as you'd have an additional option if it's 4K capable.


That's a good point, but it brings up sad memories. The issue with the SR7009 is that it does 4K but doesn't support HDCP 2.2, so it wouldn't handshake through the receiver and I'd get a black screen. And no firmware update ever fixed it. HDCP "converters" or "strippers" like HDFury Vertex, well I didn't want to bother/pay so I just got a cheap 4K switch, 4K video/audio splitter, and ran to 2nd input on the projector. This was a few years after I bought it - I only had 1080p everything for the first few years of having my theater.


----------



## danielrg

Naiera said:


> I believe you're on the right track. The 4242 comes with a video output and an audio output; I use the audio output on mine to feed an Amazon Basics HDMI audio extractor that then goes into my DAC.
> 
> I'm not sure if new scalers still come with 9G outputs from Jim, but if you're buying used you need to be aware that 18G input or output is/was not standard. I have found that you can make do with a
> ....
> You'll want to go for a 1U LRP. The 2U ones are old and noisy. The features are the same though.


Thanks for all the detailed information. Really appreciate it.

I gotta see one of these in action. Full price is very steep for me. I programmed Xilinx FPGAs for 8 years, and they are ridiculously expensive (and very cool) - so I understand the price and it's objectively reasonable, but it's hard to swallow. I even don't know if I'd pay more than $3K for a used one, which I know really is on the low side...


----------



## docrog

danielrg said:


> The issue with the SR7009 is that it does 4K but doesn't support HDCP 2.2, so it wouldn't handshake through the receiver and I'd get a black screen.


I hadn't looked at that HDCP specification prior to my post, but you're correct. That's too bad, because you might have been able to find a less expensive 4240 if the Marantz could pass HDCP 2.2 content.


----------



## danielrg

bobof said:


> I can't see it making much sense. They already did have a compact Pro unit, and a 4240 unit wih less inputs.
> 
> The bulk of the cost of the product is in the FPGA device. Lumagen achieve a massive economy of development effort by having all their Pro units using the same FPGA binary. Removing features implies you think there might be a saving by using a smaller FPGA device; however you have to re-do the synthesis for different size devices every single time you do an update, so cost savings would in all likelihood dwarfed by the effort required to achieve good timing on two different FPGA devices.
> 
> Who would such a cheap unit be competing with? Not the Envy, Lumagen already have product that are much more cost-effective than those. There isn't really anyone lower down in the market. Say they do a load of effort, shave a bit off the cost - how many folk are there that couldn't / wouldn't buy before, but now will? And how many folk who were buying further up the range might just save a bit of cash and buy further down? I'd imagine the Lumagen Radiance Pro - like many other product families - work on a "blended margin structure" - where not all products make the same margin, and as a whole the product range makes good for the manufacturer when the margins of all the product sales are accounted for.
> 
> This is a niche market, that niche - people inclined to add a video processor - doesn't get much bigger just because of cheaper product availability. You can look at how many folk making much cheaper video processors in the past have failed to see evidence of that (EEcolor, DVDO, Darbee, etc etc).


I programmed Xilinx FPGAs, high end ones, for several years, and still work with the teams in our company that do that. A Xilinx development board that can be used to develop HDMI2.1 solutions costs almost $3K and up, and doesn't even have any code or even a chassis. And writing FPGA code isn't easy or cheap. I suspect one of the challenges in making a smaller product would be that you must have certain level FPGA devices just to support the transceivers and bit rates needed to ingest/output/buffer 4K 18G signals.

Even though we wished we could write nice, modular code, we also had cases where it was difficult to keep the latency where we wanted, AND write nice, separable code for discrete signal processing features. Once you get used to a certain FPGA size and have a codebase together, it can be daunting to try to pull out specific features and downsize, and often ends up requiring significant re-write. So they'd have to select a smaller FPGA, but with still the right transceivers, so it probably still has to be on the more expensive side, and rework code, and figure out how to keep the codebases in sync when new features are added that affect both. The O&M costs are large supporting multiple products.

I bet if they went to all that trouble, it would still be at least $3K or $4K. Which still puts it outside the price of a normal consumer and even many enthusiasts. Back to the niche market. Also, how much of Lumagen clientelle is commerical?

Based on the pricing structure for the 4xxx series, I even suspect that the "core" of the unit is essentially the same, just I/O boards and ancillary electronics change. So just one firmware codebase.

Lastly, the only way to make it _really_ afforable would probably be to create an ASIC. And at that point you have left the ability to upgrade behind, and there's a huge up front investment to design and create the ASIC so you need volume they could likely never come close to, in order to recoup the initial cost.

If you're an enthusiast, and you have more time than money, you probably go to videoprocessor.org and figure out how to make your own. If you have more money than time, you might not have the time to enjoy and tweak a Lumagen and might still not get it. Need to really have enough money AND time to enjoy. I'm trying to decide if I have enough time to make it worth the buy-in price... but I totally understand the offerings and their pricing.


----------



## dgkula

I would pay a subscription fee to continue to get new features. I wouldn't want it to break the bank but would easily pay $50/year.


----------



## DigitalAV

dgkula said:


> I would pay a subscription fee to continue to get new features. I wouldn't want it to break the bank but would easily pay $50/year.


What is happening?


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Purchasing a lumagen when there’s a new model will be my payment


----------



## bobof

danielrg said:


> I programmed Xilinx FPGAs, high end ones, for several years, and still work with the teams in our company that do that. A Xilinx development board that can be used to develop HDMI2.1 solutions costs almost $3K and up, and doesn't even have any code or even a chassis. And writing FPGA code isn't easy or cheap. I suspect one of the challenges in making a smaller product would be that you must have certain level FPGA devices just to support the transceivers and bit rates needed to ingest/output/buffer 4K 18G signals.
> 
> Even though we wished we could write nice, modular code, we also had cases where it was difficult to keep the latency where we wanted, AND write nice, separable code for discrete signal processing features. Once you get used to a certain FPGA size and have a codebase together, it can be daunting to try to pull out specific features and downsize, and often ends up requiring significant re-write. So they'd have to select a smaller FPGA, but with still the right transceivers, so it probably still has to be on the more expensive side, and rework code, and figure out how to keep the codebases in sync when new features are added that affect both. The O&M costs are large supporting multiple products.
> 
> I bet if they went to all that trouble, it would still be at least $3K or $4K. Which still puts it outside the price of a normal consumer and even many enthusiasts. Back to the niche market. Also, how much of Lumagen clientelle is commerical?
> 
> Based on the pricing structure for the 4xxx series, I even suspect that the "core" of the unit is essentially the same, just I/O boards and ancillary electronics change. So just one firmware codebase.


I also do FPGA Xilinx electronics design - mostly the physical electronics side - though am aware of the issues you mention as I naturally work closely with the FPGA logical designers. The Radiances happen to be Altera FPGA based. It is exactly as you say, the core design is common to all units and there are a variety of different IOs attached. It's a strategy I also use on the product I work on, low volume and small team make it pretty essential. All the Pro products going back to the original beta units are able to use the same firmware / FPGA configuration as a result, and all get updates at the same time.

If you stayed away from HDMI2.1 (sticking to 18G) and looked to the pro video world, I think there are very simple devices that come in substantially less cost (you can look at some of the Black Magic Designs product, for example, that some folk are using in HT for just the LUT functionality - they're Kintex 7 I think) - though pro markets often have very different margin structures and volumes to consumer. If you stayed in the consumer world, I think the "still upcoming" Darbee 4k is an example of HDMI 2.0 hardware purported to be able to be sold for $600. They're generally doing one simple function though.

But yes, for HDMI2.1 the transceiver requirements are pretty vertical. JVC do also use Altera FPGAs in their projectors and if you look at the latest HDMI2.1 devices I'm sure the required FPGA is a big part of the cost increases they've gone through.


danielrg said:


> Lastly, the only way to make it _really_ afforable would probably be to create an ASIC. And at that point you have left the ability to upgrade behind, and there's a huge up front investment to design and create the ASIC so you need volume.


I think the ASIC option is really a non-starter in this market, as folk expect upgrades. There is a new FPGA image every few updates (you can see which SW updates have a new FPGA image on the updates page by looking at the update time - 5mins = new FPGA, 1min = just a microcontroller update). Each of those FPGA updates would represent a new ASIC... (it's obvs not as simple as that, as you might make the ASIC more generic and shift more function into the microcontroller, but that's yet more design work).


danielrg said:


> If you're an enthusiast, and you have more time than money, you probably go to videoprocessor.org and figure out how to make your own. If you have more money than time, you might not have the time to enjoy and tweak a Lumagen and might still not get it. Need to really have enough money AND time to enjoy. I'm trying to decide if I have enough time to make it worth the buy-in price... but I totally understand the offerings and their pricing.


For what it's worth, I don't think as an enthusiast you need that much time to enjoy a Lumagen in your system; what you need is the inclination to want that next level performance. I'm pretty time-poor these days and outside of a few hours every year or so to DIY calibration, and the occasional play with a new feature, I mostly just watch it. There was I time when as a hobby I invested effort in learning about calibration, that wasn't really a Lumagen thing (I started with the cheapy eecolor 3DLUT box, another ill fated cheap HDMI-FPGA-HDMI creation). And given the unit sticker price, the services of a pro to set it up are probably well advised and only a small increment (when you factor how much the entry to quality calibration can cost with meters, SW, time, etc)


----------



## MOberhardt

raoul said:


> Don't get me started on Anthem.


Those cheap axxed fans on their latest models are a bloody disgrace.


----------



## desray2k

Here's a behind the scene showing how fast the Instant Aspect Ratio feature transitioned between 16:9 and 2.40:1. This one is with the Aspect Ratio Status set to "Show".


----------



## graticular

Just been checking out the latest firmware update. If seems to be working really nicely. Very glad to see that both the comments I made have been nicely integrated -Thanks Jim. At the start of films the auto detect is a joy to use.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

I don't want to derail the current theme but I would like to revisit the topic of audio dropouts. I may have missed or misunderstood the outcome but it was my understanding that the issue was one of the audio only output sending a blank 720p video stream and offending audio processors defaulting to 1080p on their outputs when nothing is connected. There is a workaround to use a video and audio output on the Lumagen which would then negotiate and output at 1080p.

Maybe I don't understand how things work but when using the audio only output would either connecting a 720p display to the audio processor, or more usefully an EDID emulator configured to 720p, solve the problem?


----------



## ckgolf

desray2k said:


> Here's a behind the scene showing how fast the Instant Aspect Ratio feature transitioned between 16:9 and 2.40:1. This one is with the Aspect Ratio Status set to "Show".


That’s a perfect use case! I updated my firmware last night and it works great coming in and out of menus. I’ve always wished it had faster detection when a 2.40 movie starts, and now it’s seamless. I will continue to lock it in to 2.40 on variable aspect movies. Thanks Lumagen team!


----------



## ajbriones

desray2k said:


> Here's a behind the scene showing how fast the Instant Aspect Ratio feature transitioned between 16:9 and 2.40:1. This one is with the Aspect Ratio Status set to "Show".


This is exactly the perfect use of instant aspect! BTS Featurettes like this, as well as docs are when I have it turned on.


----------



## Iwanthd

Curious if an owner of a JVC RS2100 would benefit from the new JVC firmware if they are using an LRP?


----------



## ckgolf

Iwanthd said:


> Curious if an owner of a JVC RS2100 would benefit from the new JVC firmware if they are using an LRP?


I would say yes. The new mode 3 dimming retains highlights and you get FFTB. Do you currently use any dimming? I used mode 2 previously and enjoyed it but the new mode 3 is more accurate.


----------



## ajbriones

dgkula said:


> I would pay a subscription fee to continue to get new features. I wouldn't want it to break the bank but would easily pay $50/year.


I don’t think I’m in this camp. Paid software updates come with very different expectations from users and opens up a huge can of worms for the company. How do they manage feature requests and determine priority? Will subscribers be ok if there are no significant feature updates other than bug fixes for a given year, or no updates at all? The previous threads about COM port detection, internet interface, prettifying the GUI, etc., all that will need to be ticketed and addressed in some public forum so paid subscribers will feel heard and be acknowledged.

If I paid for this instant aspect update I would not be as forgiving of the one frame issue. In fact I’d argue that if I see even one frame before the image changes, it really isn’t instant, is it? Instead, it’s a new feature that I was not expecting and received for free, so I’m thrilled. You have a grateful user base instead of a whiny one, and specifically with me, you have a customer that recommends your products to others and will upgrade to new hardware when it comes out.


----------



## bobof

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> I don't want to derail the current theme but I would like to revisit the topic of audio dropouts. I may have missed or misunderstood the outcome but it was my understanding that the issue was one of the audio only output sending a blank 720p video stream and offending audio processors defaulting to 1080p on their outputs when nothing is connected. There is a workaround to use a video and audio output on the Lumagen which would then negotiate and output at 1080p.
> 
> Maybe I don't understand how things work but when using the audio only output would either connecting a 720p display to the audio processor, or more usefully an EDID emulator configured to 720p, solve the problem?


I think broadly speaking most of the Lumagen units are set up for 720p HDMI output for the "audio only" output, and there is a theory that some AVRs don't like this on their input, hence why it may be better to use a video output from the Radiance to those devices. The sweet spot I believe is probably a 1080p60 signal for HDMI carrying audio. It doesn't have anything to do with the HDMI output of the AVR, and the res and refresh output by the Lumagen is fixed (until / unless some FW changes perhaps) - so EDID mangling devices are unlikely to do anything at all. 

There are other theories too though, such as some AVRs not liking when the HDMI CTS/N audio timing signals change (which may be more likely with a Lumagen than with a source directly connected), and this causing a glitch. 

Are you currently having audio dropouts?


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> If I paid for this instant aspect update I would not be as forgiving of the one frame issue. In fact I’d argue that if I see even one frame before the image changes, it really isn’t instant, is it?


Instant may not be the best choice of name, given it's provably not...  Even the MadVR guys had a sense of humour and just called their "equivalent" "insane" (or is it "ludicrous"?...


----------



## jrp

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> I don't want to derail the current theme but I would like to revisit the topic of audio dropouts. I may have missed or misunderstood the outcome but it was my understanding that the issue was one of the audio only output sending a blank 720p video stream and offending audio processors defaulting to 1080p on their outputs when nothing is connected. There is a workaround to use a video and audio output on the Lumagen which would then negotiate and output at 1080p.
> 
> Maybe I don't understand how things work but when using the audio only output would either connecting a 720p display to the audio processor, or more usefully an EDID emulator configured to 720p, solve the problem?


All audio processor are required to support all current audio formats for HD and higher formats. This includes 720p which is used for the audio only output on a Radiance Pro 18 GHz output card.

One of the reasons I recommend 4242 units be purchased with a 9 GHz output card is it allows Output 1 for audio to be either 1080i (same clock rate as 720p), _or_ 9 GHz (audio plus video). In a number of cases switching from the 720p/1080i output rate to 9 GHz has eliminated audio dropouts. I believe this is due to the larger video-clock/audio-clock ratio change step that must happen from time to time. Some audio processors (e.g. Denon) appear to handle this larger step, but others (typically the high end audio processors) do not. This is a HDMI implementation specific issue in how the I2S audio format data is recovered from the HDMI video stream.

I actually made a very late in the game change in the 5244 design to allow Output 1 to carry both audio and video at 9 GHz. The circuit boards and parts "Kit" were literally on the trolleys at the assembly house ready to be reflowed when I came to the above conclusion. At significant expense and delay, I pulled that build and recycled the initial 5244 circuit boards. I redesigned the circuit board to allow Output 1 to run as 1080i audio only or audio plus video at 9 GHz which delayed the Radiance Pro 5244 build by three months. This should show how serious I think this design issue is in the high-end audio processors.

My current recommendations for Radiance Pro models for those with high end audio processors (or actually any audio processor) is to purchase a Radiance Pro 424X++, 444X++, a 5244, or a 5348, since these have a second output that can be audio and video. For the 4000 series, the "X" can be 2, 4, or 6, which stand for 4, 6, or 8, inputs, respectively.

====

I know some people blame the Radiance Pro for the audio drops, but experience says otherwise. We have one case where a Radiance Pro unit was in a system that had audio drops, but when that specific Radiance Pro was moved to another system with a different audio processor the audio dropouts went away. In addition, as Kris Deering and others reported, the high end audio processors had audio drops in demonstrations at CEDIA 2022, and there was no Radiance Pro in those demos.

====

Because of the excellent dither on the 9 GHz output, in my testing with real video, I do not see any visible difference at 4k60 between the Radiance Pro 9 GHz dithered output (8-bit 4:2:0) versus the 18 GHz output (12-bit 4:2:2) even for 4k60 10-bit HDR content. So I confidently recommend the "++" version for all 4XXX models knowing the video will remain exceptional, the 9 GHz output edge rates are easier on HDMI cables, and audio can output at 9 GHz as audio plus video.


----------



## ajbriones

I occasionally experience audio dropouts of about a half-second, but I am still trying to isolate it and have no idea what is causing it. It’s seemingly random and sometimes doesn’t happen at all, so I can’t accurately reproduce it, which makes narrowing it down that much more difficult. 

Also, wondering how others like me who connect the LRP straight to the PJ are handling the occasion when they need to access the AVR OSD. Are you switching inputs/outputs around on the LRP/AVR or do you permanently have the AVR hdmi out to a different input on your PJ? I’m thinking of the latter, but curious if there’s a better option I’m not aware of.


----------



## Michael-S

I have the AVR’s hdmi ouput connected to my pj’s second input. On those occasions that I need the AVR OSD, it takes only a moment to switch over.


----------



## docrog

ajbriones said:


> I occasionally experience audio dropouts of about a half-second, but I am still trying to isolate it and have no idea what is causing it. It’s seemingly random and sometimes doesn’t happen at all, so I can’t accurately reproduce it, which makes narrowing it down that much more difficult.
> 
> Also, wondering how others like me who connect the LRP straight to the PJ are handling the occasion when they need to access the AVR OSD. Are you switching inputs/outputs around on the LRP/AVR or do you permanently have the AVR hdmi out to a different input on your PJ? I’m thinking of the latter, but curious if there’s a better option I’m not aware of.


You'll eliminate ALL audio drop-outs if you run your video sources directly to your Denon and a single then a single HDMI out to the RP. You'll also have full use of the Denon's OSD/GUI. The Denon passes through the video signal without adding any apparent noise or degradation. Jim P. has previously acknowledged that there's no reason to shy away from that video chain pathway using the AVR as switcher -> RP -> PJ with current high end AVRs with pure video pass through. My X6750H works flawlessly with this configuration.


----------



## ajbriones

docrog said:


> You'll eliminate ALL audio drop-outs if you run your video sources directly to your Denon and a single then a single HDMI out to the RP. You'll also have full use of the Denon's OSD/GUI. The Denon passes through the video signal without adding any apparent noise or degradation. Jim P. has previously acknowledged that there's no reason to shy away from that video chain pathway using the AVR as switcher -> RP -> PJ with current high end AVRs with pure video pass through. My X6750H works flawlessly with this configuration.


I didn’t do this because I wanted to bypass the Denon so it didn’t do any processing as recommended by the LRP documentation. I’ll try this as a test as it also solves the issue of not seeing the OSD, but I quite like not seeing the OSD when adjusting volume while watching a movie.


----------



## bobof

docrog said:


> The Denon passes through the video signal without adding any apparent noise or degradation.


Be interesting to know if it is properly lossless path or not. MadVR did do a pretty extensive load of through format checking against a bunch of hgh-end processor HDMI implementations to certify them, and were a bit cagey on the particulars when asked whether recent Denons were also capable of achieving that level (I took from it that perhaps that they were not wanting to bad-mouth some consumer brand or other that wasn't actually passing perfectly). They didn't say Denon specifically (though the original question was related to Denon).
You can read the post here:








"Official madVR Envy Video Processor Owners Thread”


I'd have to go review my previous posts on the issues, but we know that the Envy wasn't passing the HDR flag (which had caused me a lot of issues when setting up 3DLUTs, and making it so that I couldn't use the Envy as intended - this was something you and support were able to replicate). We had...




www.avsforum.com




But I guess the point is that unless someone does that job and checks the through path behaviour against all pixel formats etc, it's only possible to say with certainty whether you can see a difference, not that there isn't a reason not to use it.


----------



## graticular

I moved my 5244 to a different small room which I don' t use that much. This worked well as I can run the fan at 6 which is silent in the cinema and gives chip temperatures averaging 43, and ranging from 41-45 degrees.
The only (minor) issue is that when I switch everything off I sometimes forget to switch off the Lumagen shut away in the small room.

I can't find it in the manual, but was wondering if there was some way to set a time-out, after, say, 10 minutes with no signal passing through it.


----------



## jbrinegar

docrog said:


> You'll eliminate ALL audio drop-outs if you run your video sources directly to your Denon and a single then a single HDMI out to the RP. You'll also have full use of the Denon's OSD/GUI. The Denon passes through the video signal without adding any apparent noise or degradation. Jim P. has previously acknowledged that there's no reason to shy away from that video chain pathway using the AVR as switcher -> RP -> PJ with current high end AVRs with pure video pass through. My X6750H works flawlessly with this configuration.


I prefer this way too. I like having the OSD. I run all my sources to my anthem, then video to LRP, then pj. Haven’t noticed any negatives with this setup


----------



## Woof Woof

ajbriones said:


> I occasionally experience audio dropouts of about a half-second, but I am still trying to isolate it and have no idea what is causing it. It’s seemingly random and sometimes doesn’t happen at all, so I can’t accurately reproduce it, which makes narrowing it down that much more difficult.
> 
> Also, wondering how others like me who connect the LRP straight to the PJ are handling the occasion when they need to access the AVR OSD. Are you switching inputs/outputs around on the LRP/AVR or do you permanently have the AVR hdmi out to a different input on your PJ? I’m thinking of the latter, but curious if there’s a better option I’m not aware of.


I don't notice the drop outs on everything. AppleTV/DisneyPlus and Amazon Prime Video seem to be fine. I think my UHD discs are fine too. But I do have some stuff from the Zappiti that exhibits that split second drop out. I wasn't sure where the fault lay. 



docrog said:


> You'll eliminate ALL audio drop-outs if you run your video sources directly to your Denon and a single then a single HDMI out to the RP. You'll also have full use of the Denon's OSD/GUI. The Denon passes through the video signal without adding any apparent noise or degradation. Jim P. has previously acknowledged that there's no reason to shy away from that video chain pathway using the AVR as switcher -> RP -> PJ with current high end AVRs with pure video pass through. My X6750H works flawlessly with this configuration.


I think that's what I will do going forward. While the AVM90 doesn't really have an onscreen menu, it is nice to see the volume overlay when I do change the volume.


----------



## Hitechee

Woof Woof said:


> I don't notice the drop outs on everything. AppleTV/DisneyPlus and Amazon Prime Video seem to be fine. I think my UHD discs are fine too. But I do have some stuff from the Zappiti that exhibits that split second drop out. I wasn't sure where the fault lay.


Interesting. I have the occasional audio drop out as well. Now that you mention it, it may only be with the Zappiti movie output. As you say, not sure where the fault may be.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I was playing around last night with my media centre. I too suffer drop outs. Sometimes worse than others. I changed the output from CMYK to RGB and haven’t had a drop out since. This also worked on the ATV4K. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## danielrg

bobof said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think as an enthusiast you need that much time to enjoy a Lumagen in your system; what you need is the inclination to want that next level performance. I'm pretty time-poor these days and outside of a few hours every year or so to DIY calibration, and the occasional play with a new feature, I mostly just watch it. There was I time when as a hobby I invested effort in learning about calibration, that wasn't really a Lumagen thing (I started with the cheapy eecolor 3DLUT box, another ill fated cheap HDMI-FPGA-HDMI creation). And given the unit sticker price, the services of a pro to set it up are probably well advised and only a small increment (when you factor how much the entry to quality calibration can cost with meters, SW, time, etc)


Thanks for your thoughts. It's good to know it wouldn't be too time consuming to get and setup to my preferences. Really fun reading your post. I'd love to learn how to do video calibration. I've thought about it a few times but keep punting...


----------



## Die Zwei

bobof said:


> Instant may not be the best choice of name, given it's provably not...  Even the MadVR guys had a sense of humour and just called their "equivalent" "insane" (or is it "ludicrous"?...


It´s "ludicrous" for black bar detection, "insane" is an option for shadow recovery.


----------



## Roland Janus

Roland Janus said:


> The new instant auto-aspect feature is great, in particular with a scope screen with Kodi, using 16:9 for its menus.
> Two issues or questions though:
> 
> 1. With the NLS-button now being a toogle, how can NLS be enabled/disabled directly? How with a Harmony remote?
> 
> 2. The Pro sometimes switches to 1.85 instead of 16:9, like when pausing a movie, hence blocking the runtime information partially, enough to be unreadable. Can the detection be improved to recognize it's supposed to use 16:9?


@jrp: Jim, what do you think about my questions?


----------



## gattorodolfo

Woof Woof said:


> I don't notice the drop outs on everything. AppleTV/DisneyPlus and Amazon Prime Video seem to be fine. I think my UHD discs are fine too. But I do have some stuff from the Zappiti that exhibits that split second drop out. I wasn't sure where the fault lay.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's what I will do going forward. While the AVM90 doesn't really have an onscreen menu, it is nice to see the volume overlay when I do change the volume.


I too have the same problems with the zappiti pro 4k hdr


----------



## by96

gattorodolfo said:


> I too have the same problems with the zappiti pro 4k hdr


I assume you are using just one HDMI out from the Zappiti and not separate video and audio? Or are you getting dropouts from the Zappiti directly to your AVR?


----------



## gattorodolfo

by96 said:


> I assume you are using just one HDMI out from the Zappiti and not separate video and audio? Or are you getting dropouts from the Zappiti directly to your AVR?


use separate audio and video


----------



## by96

gattorodolfo said:


> use separate audio and video


Are your dropouts audio, video, or both? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Craig Peer

With a Zappiti NEO I'm not having any dropouts. Separate audio / video.


----------



## by96

Craig Peer said:


> With a Zappiti NEO I'm not having any dropouts. Separate audio / video.


Great to hear! Still waiting for my NEO and one reason I chose it was because of separate audio/video HDMI to prevent audio dropouts.


----------



## bobof

gattorodolfo said:


> I too have the same problems with the zappiti pro 4k hdr


So you have separate audio out from the player direct to AVR I assume, and it still drops out? Sounds like a buggy player.


----------



## Aracorn

Hello I was wondering if any one can give me a link to the USB cable I need to do upgrades with. I appreciate your help, have a great Thanksgiving


----------



## bobof

Aracorn said:


> Hello I was wondering if any one can give me a link to the USB cable I need to do upgrades with. I appreciate your help, have a great Thanksgiving


It's just a standard USB A to B cable, often sold as a USB printer cable.


----------



## Aracorn

bobof said:


> It's just a standard USB A to B cable, often sold as a USB printer cable.


Thank you so much


----------



## EVH78

by96 said:


> Great to hear! Still waiting for my NEO and one reason I chose it was because of separate audio/video HDMI to prevent audio dropouts.


With my Zappiti Reference I have zero audio dropouts just using one cable! Used to have issues with my Zappiti 4K HDR One though.


----------



## Craig Peer

by96 said:


> Great to hear! Still waiting for my NEO and one reason I chose it was because of separate audio/video HDMI to prevent audio dropouts.


It's literally the only source I currently use. The last dropout I had was repeatable - a bad rip.


----------



## Aracorn

Can anybody tell me how to get apple tv sound from my receiver using my lumagen. I can get it from my HD blu ray just not my apple tv


----------



## Michael-S

Aracorn said:


> Can anybody tell me how to get apple tv sound from my receiver using my lumagen. I can get it from my HD blu ray just not my apple tv


What specific sound are you referring to? All sound, Apple TV menu sounds, Apple Music? I do all of these, all the time.

Or are you inquiring about getting sound without having your projector turned on? Let us know more precisely what you are trying to accomplish, and we can give you specific recommendations.

Keep in mind that the AppleTV is just another source device as far as the Radiance Pro is concerned.


----------



## Aracorn

Michael-S said:


> What specific sound are you referring to? All sound, Apple TV menu sounds, Apple Music? I do all of these, all the time.
> 
> Or are you inquiring about getting sound without having your projector turned on? Let us know more precisely what you are trying to accomplish, and we can give you specific recommendations.
> 
> Keep in mind that the AppleTV is just another source device as far as the Radiance Pro is concerned.


I actually just got it thank you


----------



## by96

EVH78 said:


> With my Zappiti Reference I have zero audio dropouts just using one cable! Used to have issues with my Zappiti 4K HDR One though.


Thank you!! That is very reassuring. Nothing like anticipating problems before the device has even arrived!!


----------



## desray2k

To those Zappiti owners having issues with audio dropouts, any reason why you chosen Zappiti instead of Zidoo? Both are sporting the same Realtek chipset. The interface for Zappiti and its scraping engine is a nightmare when I used it. I have switched to Zidoo and not look back since. Same great PQ and SQ as Zappiti. I wonder what will a compelling reason for one over the other?


----------



## EVH78

desray2k said:


> To those Zappiti owners having issues with audio dropouts, any reason why you chosen Zappiti instead of Zidoo? Both are sporting the same Realtek chipset. The interface for Zappiti and its scraping engine is a nightmare when I used it. I have switched to Zidoo and not look back since. Same great PQ and SQ as Zappiti. I wonder what will a compelling reason for one over the other?


I have literally spent days to create and customise my Zappiti movie collection, so there was no reason to change systems. Also I like the build quality, design and the additonal hdd slots of the Reference. The scraping engine works on Mac pretty well although it´s not very fast.


----------



## by96

desray2k said:


> To those Zappiti owners having issues with audio dropouts, any reason why you chosen Zappiti instead of Zidoo? Both are sporting the same Realtek chipset. The interface for Zappiti and its scraping engine is a nightmare when I used it. I have switched to Zidoo and not look back since. Same great PQ and SQ as Zappiti. I wonder what will a compelling reason for one over the other?


We are getting off-topic for the thread, but simply, I debated between Zappiti and Zidoo, but I use Control4, and Zappiti has a very interactive driver that allows one to review the Zappiti library on the Control4 NEEO remote or app. Initially, from videos I saw, I preferred the GUI of the Zidoo, but now that I have explored more about the Zappiti, I think I am going to be very happy. I will run the server off of a PC instead of the cloud, which I hear makes everything faster. 

As for the audio dropouts, the two users of newer model Zappiti devices (a Neo and a Reference) that have chimed in both indicated zero issues. Maybe only the older Zappitis have an issue.


----------



## desray2k

by96 said:


> I have explored more about the Zappiti, I think I am going to be very happy. I will run the server off of a PC instead of the cloud, which I hear makes everything faster.


Yes, that's correct. You need to run the server off a PC to make it faster. The cloud method offered by Zappiti is horrendous. I'm glad you like it. As for audio dropouts, if your Zappiti is not having the latest RTL1619R chipset, then this might be the issue. Anyway we shall stop here on Z vs Z.


----------



## desray2k

EVH78 said:


> The scraping engine works on Mac pretty well although it´s not very fast.


To me, this is showstopper. But that's me. I'm glad you like it.


----------



## gattorodolfo

by96 said:


> Are your dropouts audio, video, or both?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


both of them


----------



## gattorodolfo

in a previous post jim mentioned problems with zappiti


----------



## Clark Burk

I would doubt there would be significant differences between the Zappiti, Dune, and Zidoo. They all use very similar hardware and even the firmware is now often shared. I’d bet the dropouts are more likely caused by network insufficiency. I’ve seen problems when the data rate exceeds certain limits and hopefully you are using a hardwired Ethernet connection as Wi-Fi is hit or miss. I get 650 mbps Wi-Fi and still get drops with that.


----------



## Kris Deering

I wouldn't be surprised if it is a file buffering/network thing. I have not had an audio drop out in a really long time. Last few that I remember were all AppleTV and random, typically within a few minutes of starting a show, but it has been a really long time since even that has happened. I used to get the DTS ones before Trinnov updated my firmware, but those haven't been around in ages. Never happens on my Oppo or my Kscape system (even though I use a Terra). 

As I mentioned, Jim was having network issues a few days ago and started getting a lot of drop outs with his K system (player and Terra). When he fixed the network issues all the drops stopped. So he thinks it was something between the Terra/player.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

bobof said:


> Are you currently having audio dropouts?


Sadly, yes although audio only when using the 2021 AppleTV 4K. My Oppo 203 works fine and the dropouts still occur when using a variety of certified cables.

Thanks for confirming that an EDID emulator is no good and explaining the issue.


----------



## bosler.bruce

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Sadly, yes although audio only when using the 2021 AppleTV 4K. My Oppo 203 works fine and the dropouts still occur when using a variety of certified cables.
> 
> Thanks for confirming that an EDID emulator is no good and explaining the issue.


I have two 2021 ATV 4K. One plugged in directly to my Trinnov AL16 and the other into LRP 5244 then send the audio to the AL16.. I use them for Apple Music, Netflix, Amazon Prime, Apple TV, you tube TV, YouTube, Quello and other things. 

I've never had an audio dropout.


----------



## MarvinTheAndroid

bosler.bruce said:


> I have two 2021 ATV 4K. One plugged in directly to my Trinnov AL16 and the other into LRP 5244 then send the audio to the AL16.. I use them for Apple Music, Netflix, Amazon Prime, Apple TV, you tube TV, YouTube, Quello and other things.
> 
> I've never had an audio dropout.


Isn't that to be expected though? According to Jims earlier post the 5244 outputs 1080 and not 720 like the other Radiance Pros so should be immune to dropouts?


----------



## Kris Deering

MarvinTheAndroid said:


> Isn't that to be expected though? According to Jims earlier post the 5244 outputs 1080 and not 720 like the other Radiance Pros so should be immune to dropouts?


Not immune. He is hypothesizing that some processors/receivers may have issue with a blank 720p signal with audio compared to one with 1080. 

Again, you see people complain about AppleTV audio dropouts all the time in the ATV thread and these are people without Lumagen processors. As I mentioned in the CEDIA thread, I went to four different demos that had audio dropouts (some had multiple) during CEDIA. None of them had a Lumagen (3 of them had MadVR Envys) and there was an assortment of Trinnov, Storm, and Steinway processors. Some were using Kaleidescape, others were using servers. So it appears that systems not using Lumagen are not anymore immune to the issues.


----------



## Mikesterz

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I was playing around last night with my media centre. I too suffer drop outs. Sometimes worse than others. I changed the output from CMYK to RGB and haven’t had a drop out since. This also worked on the ATV4K. Your mileage may vary.


When switching from CMYK to RGB, aren’t you compromising your picture quality? I thought it may effect contrast or shadow details.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Not immune. He is hypothesizing that some processors/receivers may have issue with a blank 720p signal with audio compared to one with 1080.
> 
> Again, you see people complain about AppleTV audio dropouts all the time in the ATV thread and these are people without Lumagen processors. As I mentioned in the CEDIA thread, I went to four different demos that had audio dropouts (some had multiple) during CEDIA. None of them had a Lumagen (3 of them had MadVR Envys) and there was an assortment of Trinnov, Storm, and Steinway processors. Some were using Kaleidescape, others were using servers. So it appears that systems not using Lumagen are not anymore immune to the issues.


My ATV 4k had audio dropouts, my Roku Ultra did not. I stopped using my Roku so I decided to move my ATV to that input and so far I haven’t noticed any audio dropouts. Both inputs had the same settings and I used the same hdmi cable so I’m not sure why the other input is causing issues.


----------



## Naiera

Clark Burk said:


> I would doubt there would be significant differences between the Zappiti, Dune, and Zidoo. They all use very similar hardware and even the firmware is now often shared. I’d bet the dropouts are more likely caused by network insufficiency. I’ve seen problems when the data rate exceeds certain limits and hopefully you are using a hardwired Ethernet connection as Wi-Fi is hit or miss. I get 650 mbps Wi-Fi and still get drops with that.


The one time I streamed a movie on my Z1000, from an iMac connected via wi-fi to the router, to which the Zidoo was connected using ethernet, I, too, got some buffering. Three times during Predator it stopped for maybe a second to, I assume, buffer. The iMac gets 550 Mbps download off the internets using wi-fi, so the connection is, theoretically, fine.


----------



## GerryWaz

Kris Deering said:


> Again, you see people complain about AppleTV audio dropouts all the time in the ATV thread and these are people without Lumagen processors. As I mentioned in the CEDIA thread, I went to four different demos that had audio dropouts (some had multiple) during CEDIA. None of them had a Lumagen (3 of them had MadVR Envys) and there was an assortment of Trinnov, Storm, and Steinway processors. Some were using Kaleidescape, others were using servers. So it appears that systems not using Lumagen are not anymore immune to the issues.


My experience also. In the last year, over 90% of my audio dropouts have been when watching a streaming app (e.g., Disney Plus, Paramount +, etc.) on my iPad Pro, which means my Radiance Pro 5244 was NOT involved at all. Just the iPad Pro and wireless over our home network. 

The few times the Radiance Pro was in the loop, it was always when playing a streaming app with my Roku Ultra or NVidia Shield Pro. Never when using my Oppo to play a disk or when playing MKV rips from my Synology with Emby and everything going through my Radiance 5244.

Even though it rarely happens for me, I just find it odd that it is always a streaming app being played when it does happen.


----------



## audioguy

While I recognize that “one point does not a trend define”, I watched a movie yesterday from my NAS and had zero dropouts. That has never occurred using the Kaleidescape. Both use the same HDMI cable (2 meters by Monoprice) and the one from my Nvidia Shield/NAS was even curled up while the one from the Kaleidescape is a straight shot. Both pass through the Lumagen as the switcher so it would be hard to blame the Lumagen (which I have not). I will try to watch some other NAS based movies to see what occurs. And while it has been a really long time, I don’t recall having this issue when using my Oppo player. I will need to try an ATV movie as well.

Once I get my new cables in, I will, at least temporarily, have my Trinnov be the switcher, and see if that helps. 

HDMI - What a joke!!! if I didn't know better, I could conclude that the HdMI spec and implementation was performed by the Federal Government.


----------



## Mark_H

audioguy said:


> While I recognize that “one point does not a trend define”, I watched a movie yesterday from my NAS and had zero dropouts


One more data point. I have _never_ experienced audio dropout with local content, be that disc or NAS. The only time I have dropouts is using online streaming services, and those dropouts that I experience with my Lumagen in the chain I also experience on my TV with no Lumagen. So, for me, it's the streamers, not the Lumagen at fault in my system...


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

Happy Thanksgiving! I am thankful for my LRP and all the great updates from Jim and Patrick.


----------



## Kris Deering

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


----------



## Mikesterz

Naiera said:


> The one time I streamed a movie on my Z1000, from an iMac connected via wi-fi to the router, to which the Zidoo was connected using ethernet, I, too, got some buffering. Three times during Predator it stopped for maybe a second to, I assume, buffer. The iMac gets 550 Mbps download off the internets using wi-fi, so the connection is, theoretically, fine.


I have a new Zidoo Z1000 with my movies on a NAS. First and only movie I watched I had two video pauses, the audio was fine. I’m not sure if it’s due to the NAS. I may be better off putting a hard drive in the Zidoo.


----------



## Surge2018

I haven’t kept up to date with this thread. The 5348 will not pass through 4K/120Hz, correct? Are there plans to offer this in the future, is it even possible with a firmware update?


----------



## Mikesterz

Surge2018 said:


> I haven’t kept up to date with this thread. The 5348 will not pass through 4K/120Hz, correct? Are there plans to offer this in the future, is it even possible with a firmware update?


Not possible. Even with a firmware update. You’ll need to bypass the Lumagen if you want 4k/120fps gaming. However, the Lumagen is great at adding DTM to your games. I’d rather have 4k/60fps DTM gaming instead of 4k/120fps and no DTM.


----------



## jrp

Happy Thanksgiving!

We really appreciate all our customers and the feedback, including bug reports, you provide to help us make the Radiance Pro better.


----------



## Surge2018

Mikesterz said:


> Not possible. Even with a firmware update. You’ll need to bypass the Lumagen if you want 4k/120fps gaming. However, the Lumagen is great at adding DTM to your games. I’d rather have 4k/60fps DTM gaming instead of 4k/120fps and no DTM.


Right, well the big issue with gaming and 60FPS vs 120 is that latency is doubled at 60FPS. Yeah, I'm playing now at 4K/60 with DTM. If it's not possible it's a moot point...
Right, bypassing is the only option.


----------



## wongikmg

Happy Thanksgiving to All.

NOOB question. My Calibrator has uplaod a 3D LUT into my 5244. If I do a factory reset, do I have to reload the 3D LUT?


----------



## Naiera

Mikesterz said:


> I have a new Zidoo Z1000 with my movies on a NAS. First and only movie I watched I had two video pauses, the audio was fine. I’m not sure if it’s due to the NAS. I may be better off putting a hard drive in the Zidoo.


That was always the plan for me. Transferring a UHD MKV takes forever, but it's not like it's a process you have to watch over anyway.

But I've run into a different issue with the Z1000









Weird sound issue with Zidoo Z1000 Pro - please help


Hello there. I have encountered a strange issue with the sound output on my Z1000 Pro. This happens using HDMI, optical and coaxial. When I turn the volume up on my amplifier, I get these "bump" sounds*. The higher the volume, the louder the sound gets, and if it goes high enough, the amp...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## sunnya23

Happy Thanksgiving to all!!! Grateful for Jim and Pat and the rest of the Lumagen team for always putting the customers first, being approachable on this forum, and constantly offering improvements to us customers. I’m loving the latest instant auto aspect function. Can’t wait for the improvements in DTM to come. Wishing everyone here a Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## desray2k

wongikmg said:


> NOOB question. My Calibrator has uplaod a 3D LUT into my 5244. If I do a factory reset, do I have to reload the 3D LUT?


Yes. But before you do a reset, make sure to save the settings using Lumagen's Config utility here: Lumagen.


----------



## Kris Deering

wongikmg said:


> Happy Thanksgiving to All.
> 
> NOOB question. My Calibrator has uplaod a 3D LUT into my 5244. If I do a factory reset, do I have to reload the 3D LUT?


Yes


----------



## jrp

wongikmg said:


> Happy Thanksgiving to All.
> 
> NOOB question. My Calibrator has uplaod a 3D LUT into my 5244. If I do a factory reset, do I have to reload the 3D LUT?


Answered by email, but for other's benefit:

If you do a full factory reset you do need to reload your 1D and 3D LUT.

However, you can go into the Save menu, and under Factory Reset, select “All except CMSs” (might not be exact wording), then press OK. Save the change if you like it.

This keeps the CMS calibrations you have and resets everything else.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> Answered by email, but for other's benefit:
> 
> If you do a full factory reset you do need to reload your 1D and 3D LUT.
> 
> However, you can go into the Save menu, and under Factory Reset, select “All except CMSs” (might not be exact wording), then press OK. Save the change if you like it.
> 
> This keeps the CMS calibrations you have and resets everything else.


Jim,

Does the local backup also gets deleted with MENU 0999?

Thank you


----------



## Kris Deering

avdvplus said:


> Jim,
> 
> Does the local backup also gets deleted with MENU 0999?
> 
> Thank you


No. The backup can be restored at any time ever after a factory reset.


----------



## avdvplus

Kris Deering said:


> No. The backup can be restored at any time ever after a factory reset.


Thank you Kris, is that true for the more aggressive factory reset MENU 0757 (after enabling service menu)? Not sure what is the difference between the reset from MENU 0999 and MENU 0757?


----------



## Kris Deering

That may be a question for Jim


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> Does the local backup also gets deleted with MENU 0999?


The "hidden" backup is _not_ deleted by any factory reset options. It is available mostly so dealers and calibrators can restore the configuration they did if a customer makes changes that cause issues and Saves them. You can use the hidden backup if you want to try some changes over a number of viewing sessions by saving the current Saved configuration to the hidden backup memory as shown below:

Enter service mode (MENU 0910 toggles between user/service modes)
Enter MENU 0997
Press OK (even if it does not say to press OK since there was a message bug in some releases)

You can make changes and Save them for experimentation, without affecting the hidden backup.

Later you can get back to the configuration you stored in the hidden backup by selecting "Restore from backup" in the Save menu and then doing a Save.


----------



## wongikmg

Jim,

How is "Hidden" backup created? it is an "autosave" or user need to issue explicit command to make a copy of "hidden" backup?


----------



## jrp

wongikmg said:


> Jim,
> 
> How is "Hidden" backup created? it is an "autosave" or user need to issue explicit command to make a copy of "hidden" backup?


Please reread my previous post. It describes how to create, and how to reload, the hidden backup.

It is a manual process to save the hidden backup.


----------



## jrp

From a marketing standpoint, I am a good engineer. In other words, I am not a marketing guy. At Lumagen we have always relied on word-of-mouth marketing. Industry experts appreciate our passion for producing a "studio reference" image, and the results this brings in providing the absolute best image quality, and the ultimate feature set, in the industry. This has helped us reach the best integrators in the industry with our products.

Sometimes others post things we think are worth seeing that have a marketing theme. Here is a press release I was just sent for Lumagen in the UK:






Lumagen Radiance processor range available through DbM - Inside CI







www.insideci.co.uk





Thanks go to Gordon Fraser of Convergent AV for his continued support, and making this partnership happen.


----------



## dankeff

Correct! Yes, I don't know what was happening but I was getting them for a week and then I wasn't getting them and when you said you switched to plain text I received them again. Not aware of any reason why they wouldn't be delivered when not plain text (and I am sure I have receive other non-plain text emails).

Anyway, sorry I wasn't looking at this forum due to a busy family time so I didn't reply.

Once Jim realised I wasn't receiving emails he reached out and we finalised my purchase and now I am the proud owner of a 4242++.

Now I just have to learn how to best make use of it...  which Jim has also been very helpful with.

Thanks again.



jrp said:


> Update:
> Dan is all of a sudden getting my emails. Sending plain text.


----------



## desray2k

Scorpion66 said:


> I tried your suggestion now, but unfortunately it doesn’t solve my problem. The 1.9:1 content remains stretched to 2.4:1. All other aspect ratios are working properly excluding 1.9:1.
> 
> PS: I just received the reply from Patrick. He could reproduce the behavior. It will be solved with the next release.


@Scorpion66 - Its been quite a while since the last firmware was released. Has Patrick get back to you on a solution? I don't see Jim addressing this too. What's the status?


----------



## silver700

Sorry to ask a noob question (probably one that has already been answered), but with the new instant auto option in the Lumagen Radiance Pro (hopefully I am saying that correctly), how does one set the auto aspect corretly in the Lumagen? I don't care if it is instant auto changing or if, as some have stated, it should be set to manual setting instead of instantly changing, but how does one set the Lumagen, so I can watch a movie like Interstellar without the aspect ration changing constantly from wide screen to non wide screen? It is extremely distracting. Batman The Dark Knight is another movie that does this. Sorry I have tried to search this on my own in this forum but I haven't been able to find what the settings should be set to. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Naiera

“Batman Darknight”? 😑


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> The "hidden" backup is _not_ deleted by any factory reset options. It is available mostly so dealers and calibrators can restore the configuration they did if a customer makes changes that cause issues and Saves them. You can use the hidden backup if you want to try some changes over a number of viewing sessions by saving the current Saved configuration to the hidden backup memory as shown below:
> 
> Enter service mode (MENU 0910 toggles between user/service modes)
> Enter MENU 0997
> Press OK (even if it does not say to press OK since there was a message bug in some releases)
> 
> You can make changes and Save them for experimentation, without affecting the hidden backup.
> 
> Later you can get back to the configuration you stored in the hidden backup by selecting "Restore from backup" in the Save menu and then doing a Save.


@jrp,

When you do a utility configuration backup download to a computer does the local "hidden" Lumagen backup also gets download with the data - and - restored when you upload the backup configuration from the computer to the Lumagen?

Thank you


----------



## jrp

desray2k said:


> @Scorpion66 - Its been quite a while since the last firmware was released. Has Patrick get back to you on a solution? I don't see Jim addressing this too. What's the status?


Patrick took some time off. He is back on Monday.

There are a couple minor things on instant aspect and then he will start his part of the DTM desaturation. We may leave a couple instant aspect improvements until after the DTM desaturation.

I am hopeful that DTM desaturation will be our Christmas gift to the Radiance Pro owners. Just remember that as far as schedules go, it is going to take however long it takes.


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> @jrp,
> 
> When you do a utility configuration backup download to a computer does the local "hidden" Lumagen backup also gets download with the data - and - restored when you upload the backup configuration from the computer to the Lumagen?
> 
> Thank you


The hidden backup is not downloaded, or uploaded, by the config reader program.


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> Thank you Kris, is that true for the more aggressive factory reset MENU 0757 (after enabling service menu)? Not sure what is the difference between the reset from MENU 0999 and MENU 0757?


I talked to Patrick about this a while back and now the MENU 0757 config erase (must be in Service Mode), and the MENU 0999 Factory Reset, end up with the same values in the data structure. The difference is the Config erase uses the Flash "erase" command, and the Factory Reset, walks the database and writes the default values. It used to be that you would get slightly different values using the Config Erase.

The back-up memory is unaffected by a Config Erase (or as mentioned Factory Reset) since it is in a different sector of the flash memory that is not erased. I admit I have never tested this thesis.

Note: There is one level of undo for Factory Reset, but you cannot undo a config erase. That makes config erase rather moot.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> Patrick took some time off. He is back on Monday.
> 
> There are a couple minor things on instant aspect and then he will start his part of the DTM desaturation. We may leave a couple instant aspect improvements until after the DTM desaturation.
> 
> I am hopeful that DTM desaturation will be our Christmas gift to the Radiance Pro owners. Just remember that as far as schedules go, it is going to take however long it takes.


I've asked before, any chance to look into that?

The new instant auto-aspect feature is great, in particular with a scope screen with Kodi, using 16:9 for its menus.
Two issues or questions though:

1. With the NLS-button now being a toogle, how can NLS be enabled/disabled directly? How with a Harmony remote?

2. The Pro sometimes switches to 1.85 instead of 16:9, like when pausing a movie, hence blocking the runtime information partially, enough to be unreadable. Can the detection be improved to recognize it's supposed to use 16:9?


----------



## jrp

Roland Janus said:


> I've asked before, any chance to look into that?
> 
> The new instant auto-aspect feature is great, in particular with a scope screen with Kodi, using 16:9 for its menus.
> Two issues or questions though:
> 
> 1. With the NLS-button now being a toggle, how can NLS be enabled/disabled directly? How with a Harmony remote?
> 
> 2. The Pro sometimes switches to 1.85 instead of 16:9, like when pausing a movie, hence blocking the runtime information partially, enough to be unreadable. Can the detection be improved to recognize it's supposed to use 16:9?


1) With so many possible combinations there is not a perfect solution, but after careful thought we believe the change to NLS being a "toggle" makes sense.

To enable NLS for 16:9 content you can, as it has always been, press 16:9 and then NLS. This is a "discrete code sequence" in that you always end up with NLS active when you press these two buttons in sequence. To have NLS off, you can press just the 16:9 button. With a Harmony remote, for 16:9 NLS you can make a macro of these two keys. This was the optimal thing to do even before NLS became a toggle. Then for 16:9 without NLS send a Harmony command for 16:9 source aspect. This is no different than before this change. 

Most people I have talked to who want NLS, just enable "NLS when applicable" in the Auto Aspect menu. The change to make NLS a toggle seemed a reasonable request since you can have discrete commands as described above. Additional source aspect cases would require additional two-button sequences be programmed into the Harmony on a per aspect ratio basis.

We realize there might be a use case that we did not think of. If you have a case that the above does not cover, please let us know and we can consider options. One option we did consider, and dismissed, is to make the NLS toggle, or not, a programmable setting like we have for other remote button functions. We prefer not adding this, but would consider this extra option if there is a use case where it is needed.

=============

2) The number of active lines in 1.85 is close to the entire source raster used for 16:9. We will continue to work on the cases that video can "look like" one and be the other. With Auto Aspect we have had the ability to merge 1.85 and 16:9 source detection to be selected as 16:9. We just added the "merge to 1.85" option for this feature. This works as expected for 1.85 content, and crops just 2% off the top and 2% off the bottom for 16:9 source.

It sounds like you may not like this new option since it does crop a bit off top and bottom. If you have an example where the aspect selection blocks visibility of content you need to see, please let us know the source device, the content provider (e.g. Netflix), the title, the time stamp and what to do (e.g. press pause) to recreate the issue, we can look into this.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> I talked to Patrick about this a while back and now the MENU 0757 config erase (must be in Service Mode), and the MENU 0999 Factory Reset, end up with the same values in the data structure. The difference is the Config erase uses the Flash "erase" command, and the Factory Reset, walks the database and writes the default values. It used to be that you would get slightly different values using the Config Erase.
> 
> The back-up memory is unaffected by a Config Erase (or as mentioned Factory Reset) since it is in a different sector of the flash memory that is not erased. I admit I have never tested this thesis.
> 
> Note: There is one level of undo for Factory Reset, but you cannot undo a config erase. That makes config erase rather moot.


@jrp, Thank you Jim.

What is the command to undo a Factory Reset as you mentioned on your "Note"? And is that before you turn off Lumagen or the undo is persitent (meaning you can undo the Factory Reset even after pulling power of the Lumagen)?


----------



## jrp

avdvplus said:


> @jrp, Thank you Jim.
> 
> What is the command to undo a Factory Reset as you mentioned on your "Note"? And is that before you turn off Lumagen or the undo is persitent (meaning you can undo the Factory Reset even after pulling power of the Lumagen)?


You need to Save changes you want to be permanent.

If you Save, you can go to the Save Menu and select Undo, then press OK, and if you want the undo to be permanent then do a Save. This provide one level of undo after a Save.


----------



## Clark Burk

@jrp thanks for continuing to provide great customer service! I’m really impressed that you took the time on a holiday weekend to monitor the forum and post. That’s what separates Lumagen from the others.


----------



## bobof

Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying watching The Mosquito Coast off AppleTV+ through the Lumagen tone mapping. Thanks Jim & Patrick for these awesome products. Happy holidays!


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying watching The Mosquito Coast off AppleTV+ through the Lumagen tone mapping. Thanks Jim & Patrick for these awesome products. Happy holidays!


Good show? I’ve seen it in the menu but haven’t given it a shot yet.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> Good show? I’ve seen it in the menu but haven’t given it a shot yet.


I'm really enjoying it, has me locked in the cinema room. Nice way to spend a few hours


----------



## silver700

Naiera said:


> “Batman Darknight”? 😑


LOL Damn autocorrect. I fixed the post.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> You need to Save changes you want to be permanent.
> 
> If you Save, you can go to the Save Menu and select Undo, then press OK, and if you want the undo to be permanent then do a Save. This provide one level of undo after a Save.


Thank you Jim.


----------



## Naiera

bobof said:


> Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying watching The Mosquito Coast off AppleTV+ through the Lumagen tone mapping. Thanks Jim & Patrick for these awesome products. Happy holidays!


Try turning match range off. It’s even better in 4K SDR.


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> Try turning match range off. It’s even better in 4K SDR.


Thanks, I'll give it a go. Do you know if Apple actually stream a 4K SDR version in that case, as opposed to doing tone mapping in the AppleTV? It's a while since I've looked at the developer HID to see what the various players actually do.


----------



## Naiera

The Apple TV never converts HDR to SDR. Among major streaming services, only HBO Max and Disney+ _do not_ keep 4K SDR versions of their content. More in this thread:









Streaming Devices and Apps Chart


I just made this chart as a handy guide for what each device (most popular) is capable of for each app (most popular). This may not be 100% accurate, so please let me know if I got anything wrong. This chart assumes the highest end version of each device (example: Roku Ultra, not Roku Express)...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## bobof

Naiera said:


> The Apple TV never converts HDR to SDR. Among major streaming services, only HBO Max and Disney+ _do not_ keep 4K SDR versions of their content. More in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Streaming Devices and Apps Chart
> 
> 
> I just made this chart as a handy guide for what each device (most popular) is capable of for each app (most popular). This may not be 100% accurate, so please let me know if I got anything wrong. This chart assumes the highest end version of each device (example: Roku Ultra, not Roku Express)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


Thanks, very useful. 

I wonder how much variation there is between how the services get the 4K SDR versions? Are they always signed off by the colorist?
I see Netflix suggest these packages have the HDR done first with the SDR delivered as a trim pass delivered as metadata alongside the HDR master.








Dolby Vision HDR Mastering Guidelines


Skip to Translations Dolby Vision is an HDR framework that helps maintain creative intent from the image seen in the color grading suite all the way to the consumer devices being used to watch Ne...




partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com





Anyway, thanks for the heads-up. We do have D+, but don't watch that much on it, so I might give this a go.


----------



## alv

Naiera said:


> only HBO Max and Disney+ _do not_ keep 4K SDR versions of their content. More in this thread:


HBO Max for a while seemed to have a lot of issues, including this one. I also had the can't stream this content and for a while, only time I got HDR was to uninstall and reinstall the app. Last few days it was better. Also they don't have much 4K content, but GOT had an excellent PQ.


----------



## Naiera

Yeah, it's just the big new movies and the two Game of Throners that have 4K on HBO Max.


----------



## Scorpion66

desray2k said:


> @Scorpion66 - Its been quite a while since the last firmware was released. Has Patrick get back to you on a solution? I don't see Jim addressing this too. What's the status?


Yes, I have got a workaround from Patric:

"Since you have everything set to 2.36 output aspect, you can work around the problem until we have a fix by going in the menu to Output: Styles: Aspect Ratio: and selecting "single output aspect" and then entering 2.36."
After the change of the setting discribed above the wrong 1.9 aspect behavior is solved now.


----------



## raoul

I just bought a 4242 from a forum member. It has the 18g HDMI. I'm v confused about the lumagen product naming. Is this a RadiancePro device? What's the 4242++?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Yes its a Radiance Pro.

When the Radiance Pro was released it was 444X units and all 9Ghz inputs and outputs. You could spec how many inputs you wanted in pairs up to 8. So you had 4440, 4442, 4444, 4446 They all had four outputs. Then they brought out the 18Ghz/18Gbs cards and you could spec them...but the model name didn't change. So a 4444 could be multiple specs internally for inputs and outputs. Then they had the 424x range which had fixed two outputs but either two or four inputs....4240 or 4242 respectively. Again you could order with any spec you wanted but all the same model number.

So to make ordering process simpler for them and dealers they started giving them additional delineators. 4242+ has 2 x 18Gbs inputs and everythign else is 9. 4242++ has four 18Gbs inputs and outputs are 9. 4242-18G is all 18Gbs in and out. Similar for the other models. As 5244 and 5348 are always fixed spec they don't need any +'s added to them


----------



## Dennis.Mitchell

raoul said:


> I just bought a 4242 from a forum member. It has the 18g HDMI. I'm v confused about the lumagen product naming. Is this a RadiancePro device? What's the 4242++?


There are a few 4242 models. Different combination of 9 and 18g. This link might help Radiance Video Processor


----------



## raoul

Dennis.Mitchell said:


> There are a few 4242 models. Different combination of 9 and 18g. This link might help Radiance Video Processor


Ah great. I think I have an 18g with audio out box. In the end the processing is the same right?

Now onto learning about how to calibrate it. I'm using it with a JVC projector. What's the best start-up guide?


----------



## Kris Deering

raoul said:


> Ah great. I think I have an 18g with audio out box. In the end the processing is the same right?
> 
> Now onto learning about how to calibrate it. I'm using it with a JVC projector. What's the best start-up guide?


The manual


----------



## Michael-S

raoul said:


> Ah great. I think I have an 18g with audio out box. In the end the processing is the same right?
> 
> Now onto learning about how to calibrate it. I'm using it with a JVC projector. What's the best start-up guide?


Try the link at the bottom of this message where you will find lots of downloadable manuals and tips for setup. Most of what you will need is at this link; a very good place to start.

Lumagen


----------



## raoul

Michael-S said:


> Try the link at the bottom of this message where you will find lots of downloadable manuals and tips for setup. Most of what you will need is at this link; a very good place to start.
> 
> Lumagen


Nice. Calibration section is very well written.


----------



## jrp

For those trying to decipher the alphabet soup of configurations available, here is a link to the Radiance Pro brochure.


----------



## DigitalAV

raoul said:


> Ah great. I think I have an 18g with audio out box. In the end the processing is the same right?
> 
> Now onto learning about how to calibrate it. I'm using it with a JVC projector. What's the best start-up guide?


Here's I think the latest quick start guide


----------



## Surge2018

@jrp is there a plan to improve SD resolution upscaling? I was watching (Midnight Express, Kaleidescape) last night which is in 480i. The 5348 was upscaling to 4K. The image quality was pretty bad, especially with on screen text, which was "jumping" and had missing scan lines.
Perhaps I should pass this through and let the JVC RS3000 upscale?
Thanks!


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Personally, I found the SD upscaling of RPro to be much better than any other combination that I tried from any of my sources. I have quite a few series on DVD and with some sharpening, these can look near-HD in a lot of scenes. I'm not sure that there is much more they could squeak out for SD than they already have. Perhaps your expectations are a bit too high for this material.


----------



## Drexler

I have also not the best upscaling experience frim 1080p-4K. Watching soccer all the white field lines had heavy aliasing that moved around as the camera was shifting. Very distracting! Letting my satbox do the upscaling and this aliasing went away and resulted in much better PQ.
Maybe I havent configured it correctly though?
Besides the upscaling I love my LRP, and I havent had any aliasing problems with my anamorphic scaling.


----------



## jrp

We have not spent a lot of time on 480i movie DVD content. It is not really a factor for movies given how they are encoded (480i, 576i, 480p24, or 576p50). Since movies are almost 100% 24p original content, when they are converted to 480i as done on some DVD content, there is "Frame flag" on the DVD which tells the player exactly how to reconstruct the fames. Later DVD movies are often encoded (as they should have been all along) as 480p24 or 576p50. So in either of these cases the player should be set to output progressive. For 576i50, ther "pull down" is 2:2 which makes it much harder than int eh USA at 24 to 60i, which allows 3:2 pull-down, which is much easier to find the cadence for. It is not practical to try to match the exact knowledge placed on the disc using an external deinterlacer, especially for 576i50 content.

So, why would anyone encode a 24p movie as 480i/576i? The answer is "follow the money." This certainly was _not_ a technical decision. Companies did not want to spend the money to convert to 24p mastering. They had interlaced mastering equipment and either did not understand, or did not care enough to spend money to fix the problem, given they were doing the encoding (IMO) wrong.

The 480i and 576i deinterlacing in the Pro is actually pretty good with well done interlaced content. Content encoding quality makes a big difference. Text, which does not follow Nyquist sampling, is a difficult issue. However, if you let the player output progressive using the Frame-flag, it will work much better.

Bluray movies are almost always encoded correctly at 1080p24. So this is not typically an issue for HD content.

You should set the DVD player output to progressive for movies. Sometimes this can be 480p60, or 576p50, but if your player also plays Bluray discs, and it does not have a "source direct" progressive output mode, set the player to 1080p50 or 1080p60 output mode. Then the Pro upscales from there.

As a correction on the use of terms, this is "deinterlacing." It is _not_ "scaling." People I have talked to say the Pro 480p to 1080p or to 4k output is the best they have seen. The players are reasonably good at 480/576 progressive to 1080p. So a good balance can be had setting the player output to 1080p, and in this case, some players will output 24 Hertz encoded DVDs at 1080p24, which is optimal.

Because of the above improving 480i or 576i movies (IMO) incorrectly encoded as interlace is not a high priority. Set the player output to progressive for these.


----------



## Craig Peer

Drexler said:


> I have also not the best upscaling experience frim 1080p-4K. Watching soccer all the white field lines had heavy aliasing that moved around as the camera was shifting. Very distracting! Letting my satbox do the upscaling and this aliasing went away and resulted in much better PQ.
> Maybe I havent configured it correctly though?
> Besides the upscaling I love my LRP, and I havent had any aliasing problems with my anamorphic scaling.


Upscaling from 1080p Blu-rays to 4K or 4K 4096 x 2160 looks fantastic on my RS4500. So good I wonder if I need to upgrade " Train From Busan " to the new 4K Blu-ray, since I have guests that thought the Blu-ray was 4k already - it looks that good! Cable / sat boxes can be all over the place.


----------



## melb0028

Drexler said:


> I have also not the best upscaling experience frim 1080p-4K. Watching soccer all the white field lines had heavy aliasing that moved around as the camera was shifting. Very distracting! Letting my satbox do the upscaling and this aliasing went away and resulted in much better PQ.
> Maybe I havent configured it correctly though?
> Besides the upscaling I love my LRP, and I havent had any aliasing problems with my anamorphic scaling.


I too use my LRP frequently for upscaling dvd (both 480 and 576) television program content. The output is often spectacular - easily matching or beating some native 1080 HD content. However because it is a frequent use case I would vote to have some future work on this feature on the roadmap (improper encoding issue not included).


----------



## Mikesterz

I just upgraded from my ATV4K 2021 model to the 2022 model and I have lost dolby Atmos. Old model was passing Atmos just fine. Anyone else having issues?


Update: known issue with Apple TV 4K Gen 3. Apple is working on a fix.


----------



## jrp

Drexler said:


> I have also not the best upscaling experience frim 1080p-4K. Watching soccer all the white field lines had heavy aliasing that moved around as the camera was shifting. Very distracting! Letting my satbox do the upscaling and this aliasing went away and resulted in much better PQ.
> Maybe I havent configured it correctly though?
> Besides the upscaling I love my LRP, and I haven't had any aliasing problems with my anamorphic scaling.


The white field lines are a special problem. As mentioned in my last post this is deinterlacing and not "scaling."

It would require a "diagonal filter" to improve these. This is _not_ on our todo list, but it is on our under-consideration list.

To improve the lines for 1080i sports I suggest reducing the vertical sharpness filter which actually makes the lines worse if set too high. You can even try going to a negative number for the vertical filter, and perhaps the horizontal filter, to see if the image looks better for interlaced HD sports.


----------



## bosler.bruce

Mikesterz said:


> I just upgraded from my ATV4K 2021 model to the 2022 model and I have lost dolby Atmos. Old model was passing Atmos just fine.


Atmos has to be enabled

Set up Dolby Atmos or surround sound on Apple TV with a sound bar or AV receiver

*Check if Dolby Atmos is set up*
On your Apple TV 4K, go to Settings > Video and Audio and select Audio Format. Under Immersive Audio, check that Dolby Atmos is on. If you don't see Immersive Audio and Dolby Atmos as an option, you might need to change how your home entertainment system is set up.


----------



## Mikesterz

bosler.bruce said:


> Atmos has to be enabled
> 
> Set up Dolby Atmos or surround sound on Apple TV with a sound bar or AV receiver
> 
> *Check if Dolby Atmos is set up*
> On your Apple TV 4K, go to Settings > Video and Audio and select Audio Format. Under Immersive Audio, check that Dolby Atmos is on. If you don't see Immersive Audio and Dolby Atmos as an option, you might need to change how your home entertainment system is set up.


Apple tech support said it’s a known issue and they’re working on a fix. If you have frame rate or dynamic range match, you will lose Atmos. This is only effecting the 2022 model.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> Apple tech support said it’s a known issue and they’re working on a fix. If you have frame rate or dynamic range match, you will lose Atmos. This is only effecting the 2022 model.


I'm using the current TVOS beta on mine since I bought it to upgrade from the last gen. I was checking settings the other day and everything is working on mine.


----------



## Mikesterz

OzHDHT said:


> I'm using the current TVOS beta on mine since I bought it to upgrade from the last gen. I was checking settings the other day and everything is working on mine.


Then I might have a defective unit. All other settings are the same as the 2021 model. Atmos doesn’t work if I turn off either one or both frame rate and dynamic range match.


----------



## ajbriones

Been using instant aspect more than I thought I would, especially with YouTube TV, YouTube and when watching docs. Something that I have noticed with YouTube is that occasionally 4:3 is squashed, and the only time it looks correct is if I disable aspect detection and display at 16:9. An example is this YouTube video which bounces around from 16:9 to 4:3: 




Is anyone else seeing this behavior, or maybe I have my settings wrong?


----------



## Scorpion66

ajbriones said:


> Been using instant aspect more than I thought I would, especially with YouTube TV, YouTube and when watching docs. Something that I have noticed with YouTube is that occasionally 4:3 is squashed, and the only time it looks correct is if I disable aspect detection and display at 16:9. An example is this YouTube video which bounces around from 16:9 to 4:3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else seeing this behavior, or maybe I have my settings wrong?


Yes, I saw it also in different videos. It was in 16;9 but misinterpreted as 4:3. Let Lumagen know about the behavior.


----------



## Grifo

Hi,

I copy here what I have just written to lumagen support:

“I have a 4446 with last firmware (beta 110322).
With this firmware I sadly get an issue that I used to get until one year ago.
the issue is this:
Source: Sky q (tv channels via sat) set in 3840 x 2160 HDR (HLG).
With and only with this resolution coming out from the sky q I get continuos interruptions
 black screen mostly but also purple, grey screen). As I go back to 1080 resolution this issue disappears and everything get back to normal.
As I wrote above I fought with this issue until about one year ago and during 2022 I never got the issue….. until yesterday evening and few hours with this firmware installed.”

Anybody knows about such an issue?


----------



## EVH78

Grifo said:


> Source: Sky q (tv channels via sat) set in 3840 x 2160 HDR (HLG).
> With and only with this resolution coming out from the sky q I get continuos interruptions
> 
> 
> Anybody knows about such an issue?


Also HLG is not working correctly with the Radiance Pro and Sky Q in 4k HDR HLG. I hope this can be adressed at some point.


----------



## Chicagobear1

EVH78 said:


> Also HLG is not working correctly with the Radiance Pro and Sky Q in 4k HDR HLG. I hope this can be adressed at some point.


Jockychan from avforums tried to send Lumagen skyQ material with interlaced & HLG 4k so Lumagen could take a good look. However you would need a satellite feed to see this properly so it was a know go. He also mentioned that bbc iplayer is Also HLG and Lumagen couldn't find any source material to take a look. There is a way to allow the HLG to pass through the lumagen that will give better results. With HLG material switch the HDR Mapping of for SkyQ HLG or bbc iplayer HLG at the lumagen. You can do this with output > CMS > HDR MAPPING > Enable off.

We actually find the best way for the SkyQ results with the lumagen. Best setting SkyQ to 2160p 8bit that won't allow HLG you need 10bit for this. It will allow you to view 4k UHD. I think it's the best solution for the moment.


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> Been using instant aspect more than I thought I would, especially with YouTube TV, YouTube and when watching docs. Something that I have noticed with YouTube is that occasionally 4:3 is squashed, and the only time it looks correct is if I disable aspect detection and display at 16:9. An example is this YouTube video which bounces around from 16:9 to 4:3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else seeing this behavior, or maybe I have my settings wrong?


This is a known issue Pat is looking into.


----------



## Kris Deering

The reason for the issue is the content is 4x3 but it is being pillar boxed for the encode. So the Lumagen sees the aspect ratio but it is actually formatted for 16x9 (which the Lumagen would not know because it just sees the framing). So it is being worked on.


----------



## EVH78

Chicagobear1 said:


> Jockychan from avforums tried to send Lumagen skyQ material with interlaced & HLG 4k so Lumagen could take a good look. However you would need a satellite feed to see this properly so it was a know go. He also mentioned that bbc iplayer is Also HLG and Lumagen couldn't find any source material to take a look.
> 
> We actually find the best way for the SkyQ results with the lumagen. Best setting SkyQ to 2160p 8bit that won't allow HLG you need 10bit for this. It will allow you to view 4k UHD. I think it's the best solution for the moment.


Good idea using 8bit as a workaround!!

However this means no more HDR10 for all other non-HLG HDR content, so lots of switching involved.

It would be great if someone with a spare Sky Q receiver could send it to Lumagen, there is really *no need for a satellite feed*. Just record a soccer match (most HLG events on Sky) to the internal hdd before shipping.


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> The reason for the issue is the content is 4x3 but it is being pillar boxed for the encode. So the Lumagen sees the aspect ratio but it is actually formatted for 16x9 (which the Lumagen would not know because it just sees the framing). So it is being worked on.


Hope this will be the last time Patrick has to work on the instant AR feature.


----------



## bferbrache

EVH78 said:


> Good idea using 8bit as a workaround!!
> 
> However this means no more HDR10 for all other non-HLG HDR content, so lots of switching involved.
> 
> It would be great if someone with a spare Sky Q receiver could send it to Lumagen, there is really *no need for a satellite feed*. Just record a soccer match (most HLG events on Sky) to the internal hdd before shipping.


A Firestick max 4K with a vpn could be used to watch bbc iPlayer in HLG. If Lumagen invested in one they could take a look at the HLG stream and see if it could be made to work with DTM.


----------



## Chicagobear1

EVH78 said:


> Good idea using 8bit as a workaround!!
> 
> However this means no more HDR10 for all other non-HLG HDR content, so lots of switching involved.
> 
> It would be great if someone with a spare Sky Q receiver could send it to Lumagen, there is really *no need for a satellite feed*. Just record a soccer match (most HLG events on Sky) to the internal hdd before shipping.


You can not do that the way the SkyQ works when you record the content. You still need the satellite feed to view recorded content along with the viewing card. We have tried this as soon as you disconnect the satellite feed and keep your card in the box you still lose signal on all content including recorded. The only way round this would be to transfer the SkyQ content onto a separate hard drive hdd. The plan was to send the SkyQ box to lumagen with recorded content and the viewing card intact.


----------



## Surge2018

jrp said:


> Because of the above improving 480i or 576i movies (IMO) incorrectly encoded as interlace is not a high priority. Set the player output to progressive for these.


Thanks Jim. This 480i film was from Kaleidescape. They should really improve this title. Apple TV has it in HD, for example.


----------



## Surge2018

Craig Peer said:


> Upscaling from 1080p Blu-rays to 4K or 4K 4096 x 2160 looks fantastic on my RS4500. So good I wonder if I need to upgrade " Train From Busan " to the new 4K Blu-ray, since I have guests that thought the Blu-ray was 4k already - it looks that good! Cable / sat boxes can be all over the place.


And if you ever try Apple TV X - 1080P content definitely looks very close to 4K!


----------



## Naiera

🤦‍♂️


----------



## EVH78

Chicagobear1 said:


> You can not do that the way the SkyQ works when you record the content. You still need the satellite feed to view recorded content along with the viewing card. We have tried this as soon as you disconnect the satellite feed and keep your card in the box you still lose signal on all content including recorded. The only way round this would be to transfer the SkyQ content onto a separate hard drive hdd. The plan was to send the SkyQ box to lumagen with recorded content and the viewing card intact.


 Thanks for clarification!


----------



## Mikesterz

OzHDHT said:


> I'm using the current TVOS beta on mine since I bought it to upgrade from the last gen. I was checking settings the other day and everything is working on mine.


I returned my ATV4K and purchased another. Same issue. Are you sure you have it set to match both range and frame rate? If so then what is your lumagen set to? Mine is set to common.


----------



## gattorodolfo

EVH78 said:


> Also HLG is not working correctly with the Radiance Pro and Sky Q in 4k HDR HLG. I hope this can be adressed at some point.


never had any problems with skyQ with hlg or anything for the past 3 years, everything works very well.


----------



## gattorodolfo

Grifo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I copy here what I have just written to lumagen support:
> 
> “I have a 4446 with last firmware (beta 110322).
> With this firmware I sadly get an issue that I used to get until one year ago.
> the issue is this:
> Source: Sky q (tv channels via sat) set in 3840 x 2160 HDR (HLG).
> With and only with this resolution coming out from the sky q I get continuos interruptions
> black screen mostly but also purple, grey screen). As I go back to 1080 resolution this issue disappears and everything get back to normal.
> As I wrote above I fought with this issue until about one year ago and during 2022 I never got the issue….. until yesterday evening and few hours with this firmware installed.”
> 
> Anybody knows about such an issue?


I read however that the problem with sky Q is with 3840 resolution I have always had 4096, I'm not sure if this can make a difference


----------



## EVH78

gattorodolfo said:


> never had any problems with skyQ with hlg or anything for the past 3 years, everything works very well.


You would be the only one I have heard of, what are your settings for DTM with HLG then?


----------



## jrp

Patrick is back from vacation. He is working on more tuning for the instant auto-aspect. While we want to optimize the instant aspect even more before moving on, this is delaying the start of the desaturation work. We should have a new release for instant auto-aspect in the next week or so.

Based on feedback, the next release will also adjust the amount the bottom edge is moved up for sub-titles from 6% and 10%, to 4% and 8%, maximum, for the first and second down-arrow, respectively.

Thanks for all the feedback and specific cases for us to look at.


----------



## HTTR17

I haven't needed the closed caption feature but I tried it the other day and I couldn't get it to move up. I just be missing something simple. Set to 2.35 or whatever then disable auto aspect on remote and click down arrow correct?


----------



## Kris Deering

HTTR17 said:


> I haven't needed the closed caption feature but I tried it the other day and I couldn't get it to move up. I just be missing something simple. Set to 2.35 or whatever then disable auto aspect on remote and click down arrow correct?


You don't have to disable anything. If you are using a scope screen and the aspect is scope for the content, while it is playing press the DOWN arrow and that will do S1. Press it down again and it will go to S2. Press up to go back.


----------



## HTTR17

Kris Deering said:


> You don't have to disable anything. If you are using a scope screen and the aspect is scope for the content, while it is playing press the DOWN arrow and that will do S1. Press it down again and it will go to S2. Press up to go back.


Thanks I'll give it a go again. I swear last time it just went to the next aspect ratio in order (like it normally does if you push up or down buttons on the remote), it didn't shift the picture up for the captions.


----------



## Kris Deering

HTTR17 said:


> Thanks I'll give it a go again. I swear last time it just went to the next aspect ratio in order (like it normally does if you push up or down buttons on the remote), it didn't shift the picture up for the captions.


That means your arrows are setup for aspect switching and not zoom. You have to change the settings for the arrow buttons in the menu to zoom functions.


----------



## HTTR17

Kris Deering said:


> That means your arrows are setup for aspect switching and not zoom. You have to change the settings for the arrow buttons in the menu to zoom functions.


Thanks


----------



## Kris Deering

HTTR17 said:


> Thanks


Those settings are in the OTHER menu under I/O settings.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

I used the subtitle feature for 1899 on Netflix. @jrp I did notice that when I enabled it. Sometimes it would reset back to default 2:35 by itself. I had to disable the auto aspect on the remote. Perhaps there’s a setting I don’t know that when I move it up for subtitles it stays there until it changes refresh rate. e.g back to the menu?


----------



## ajbriones

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I used the subtitle feature for 1899 on Netflix. @jrp I did notice that when I enabled it. Sometimes it would reset back to default 2:35 by itself. I had to disable the auto aspect on the remote. Perhaps there’s a setting I don’t know that when I move it up for subtitles it stays there until it changes refresh rate. e.g back to the menu?


Sometimes the auto aspect gets triggered depending on the content and how it's encoded, even if it shouldn't (it's probably also because I have detection set to HDMI+IMAGE) . It's why I have auto aspect enable/disable mapped to the rec/rec(long press) button and lumagen down/up mapped to -/+ (home control) on my harmony remote. It allows me to very easily change settings easily without having to bring out the lumagen remote.


----------



## jrp

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I used the subtitle feature for 1899 on Netflix. @jrp I did notice that when I enabled it. Sometimes it would reset back to default 2:35 by itself. I had to disable the auto aspect on the remote. Perhaps there’s a setting I don’t know that when I move it up for subtitles it stays there until it changes refresh rate. e.g back to the menu?


If you are going to use the subtitle feature, before pressing down arrow, press the appropriate aspect ratio button (or the "disable auto aspect" button), and then press down arrow. Make sure "sticky override" is selected for auto-aspect.

At this time down arrow does not disable auto aspect, so the new aspect ratio will be selected the next time a change is detected. This in turn undoes the manual subtitle selection. Note that the subtitles are treated as video. So, subtitles going away can trigger the change if auto-aspect is not disabled. The selection of an aspect or disabling of auto aspect prevents the new auto-selection from occurring if sticky override is selected.

We did discuss if pressing the down-arrow to enable subtitles should also disable auto-aspect. I think a case can be made both for the current choice, and for the down-arrow to enable subtitle view to disable auto-aspect. We are happy to hear thoughts on which option is best.

The case for leaving auto aspect enabled if out-of-frame subtitles are a rare occurrence in content being viewed. Then when the subtitle goes away the aspect goes back to the content's aspect ratio. If pressing down arrow for subtitles disabled auto-aspect this is a good option if out-of-frame subtitles are frequent.


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> I used the subtitle feature for 1899 on Netflix. @jrp I did notice that when I enabled it. Sometimes it would reset back to default 2:35 by itself. I had to disable the auto aspect on the remote. Perhaps there’s a setting I don’t know that when I move it up for subtitles it stays there until it changes refresh rate. e.g back to the menu?


What is the source? I’m using appletv and the subs are already in the scope frame.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> What is the source? I’m using appletv and the subs are already in the scope frame.


Apple TV 4K. I found it was just cutting the bottom off.


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Apple TV 4K. I found it was just cutting the bottom off.


Interesting. What aspect is your screen? Are you using a lens?


----------



## Kris Deering

2.40 screen with lens, no cutoff.


----------



## Kris Deering

With two lines the appletv moves the text up slightly


----------



## ajbriones

If you're looking for a good example to test subs below the image at 2.40, I would suggest Netflix's All Quiet on the Western Front.


----------



## Kris Deering

ajbriones said:


> If you're looking for a good example to test subs below the image at 2.40, I would suggest Netflix's All Quiet on the Western Front.


I'll give this title a look this week. Thanks!

I've definitely seen titles in the past with subs outside the frame, I was just commenting on 1899, which shows them in frame on my setup. I have done a few tweaks to the subtitle settings in the AppleTV main setup menus, so that may be why mine are slightly different to others. Some people don't know that you can change the subs. I only wish Apple would allow you to shift position a bit. I've submitted the request and information to the AppleTV group at Apple a couple times now.


----------



## seanbryan

You can change the size and font (among other things) of the subtitles on the AppleTV. Is it possible that some combinations position them differently? Would be a good thing to check if evaluating.

Edit: I see that Kris just mentioned this above.


----------



## ajbriones

seanbryan said:


> You can change the size and font (among other things) of the subtitles on the AppleTV. Is it possible that some combinations position them differently? Would be a good thing to check if evaluating.


One of the things I hope Apple does in a future update is add the option to move subs to the active image, something that is an option on Plex (though that is buried in an .ini file). That would solve a bunch of problems for us CIH folks.


----------



## Craig Peer

I'm able to shift subtitles up on my Zappiti NEO, even with some titles I didn't think could be moved.


----------



## Ilushka85

I have a 2.4 screen and running latest beta. I was watching Planes , Trains, Automobiles yesterday from KScape which is 1.85.... and had a lot of instant switching back and fourth between 1.85 / 1.9. Is there a remedy for this?


----------



## Kris Deering

Ilushka85 said:


> I have a 2.4 screen and running latest beta. I was watching Planes , Trains, Automobiles yesterday from KScape which is 1.85.... and had a lot of instant switching back and fourth between 1.85 / 1.9. Is there a remedy for this?


I'd wait and see if the new update that should be posted soon fixes this. Pat is working on some refinement for false detection and fixes for some errors that have already been reported. Remember when Jim brought up that instant detection may lead to some false detections.......here we are. If you are not someone that uses instant to watch movies that switch throughout (again, not recommended), I would suggest changing the setting from instant to .5 or 1 second. This will still lock on REALLY fast for those that just use it for the initial lock on and will help with false detections because now instead of switching based on a single frame, it is using 12 to 30 frames depending on the frame rate or more. I am using .5 right now and haven't had any issues. Since I don't care about shifting aspect ratios for films (I just lock aspect), I'd rather have it take half a second and be stable.


----------



## Jue Liang

Kris Deering said:


> I'll give this title a look this week. Thanks!
> 
> I've definitely seen titles in the past with subs outside the frame, I was just commenting on 1899, which shows them in frame on my setup. I have done a few tweaks to the subtitle settings in the AppleTV main setup menus, so that may be why mine are slightly different to others. Some people don't know that you can change the subs. I only wish Apple would allow you to shift position a bit. I've submitted the request and information to the AppleTV group at Apple a couple times now.


Very interesting! If you don’t mind, can you please share your subtitle settings in the ATV? I have tried a few combinations, none of them moved the subtitle of 1899 within the 2.40:1 frame.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> I'll give this title a look this week. Thanks!
> 
> I've definitely seen titles in the past with subs outside the frame, I was just commenting on 1899, which shows them in frame on my setup. I have done a few tweaks to the subtitle settings in the AppleTV main setup menus, so that may be why mine are slightly different to others. Some people don't know that you can change the subs. I only wish Apple would allow you to shift position a bit. I've submitted the request and information to the AppleTV group at Apple a couple times now.


We watched 1899 for the first time last night. It was annoying switching from 2.35 to 2.00 whenever subtitles popped up. Unfortunately there is no instant aspect switch to 2.0 so I ended up just keeping it at 2.0 for the rest of the show.


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> Very interesting! If you don’t mind, can you please share your subtitle settings in the ATV? I have tried a few combinations, none of them moved the subtitle of 1899 within the 2.40:1 frame.


This is what I’m using now with Style 1:


----------



## Mikesterz

Troubleshooting with Apple regarding no Atmos when frame rate match is set to ON with the new ATV 4k 2022 Ethernet model. Was told it’s an issue with the lumagen. They asked that I connect directly to the Altitude to test it. Atmos worked with a direct connection to the Altitude so it is a lumagen issue. If you have a new ATV4K 2022 model, are you getting Atmos when you have 422 and rate match set to on? If so, what is your settings on the lumagen?


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> Troubleshooting with Apple regarding no Atmos when frame rate match is set to ON with the new ATV 4k 2022 Ethernet model. Was told it’s an issue with the lumagen. They asked that I connect directly to the Altitude to test it. Atmos worked with a direct connection to the Altitude so it is a lumagen issue. If you have a new ATV4K 2022 model, are you getting Atmos when you have 422 and rate match set to on? If so, what is your settings on the lumagen?


Works fine on mine but I don’t have the newest one. Lumagen just passes the audio signal thru so not sure how it would have any bearing on this.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> Troubleshooting with Apple regarding no Atmos when frame rate match is set to ON with the new ATV 4k 2022 Ethernet model. Was told it’s an issue with the lumagen. They asked that I connect directly to the Altitude to test it. Atmos worked with a direct connection to the Altitude so it is a lumagen issue. If you have a new ATV4K 2022 model, are you getting Atmos when you have 422 and rate match set to on? If so, what is your settings on the lumagen?


Do you have an older ATV that worked before? Have you verified other sources work?


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Works fine on mine but I don’t have the newest one. Lumagen just passes the audio signal thru so not sure how it would have any bearing on this.


It works fine on my 2021 model as well. That’s why I’m specifying the 2022 model.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Do you have an older ATV that worked before? Have you verified other sources work?


Yes. Older one (2021) worked and other sources work. Just the new 2022 model. I even returned it and purchased another and same issue.


----------



## OzHDHT

I'll be doing some viewing a little later so I'll go through and run my current gen ATV and confirm ATMOS again as per my last comment on it.


----------



## jbrinegar

Mikesterz said:


> Troubleshooting with Apple regarding no Atmos when frame rate match is set to ON with the new ATV 4k 2022 Ethernet model. Was told it’s an issue with the lumagen. They asked that I connect directly to the Altitude to test it. Atmos worked with a direct connection to the Altitude so it is a lumagen issue. If you have a new ATV4K 2022 model, are you getting Atmos when you have 422 and rate match set to on? If so, what is your settings on the lumagen?


Yes, I have the 2022 Ethernet Apple TV model. No problems with atmos.
My system: apple 4k tv—>anthem avr—>Lumagen —-> projector

















Edit: Netflix, Christmas chronicles 2. Apple 4k tv set to match frame rate and match dynamic range


----------



## Kris Deering

jbrinegar said:


> Yes, I have the 2022 Ethernet Apple TV model. No problems with atmos.
> My system: apple 4k tv—>anthem avr—>Lumagen —-> projector
> View attachment 3369316
> 
> 
> View attachment 3369317
> 
> Edit: Netflix, Christmas chronicles 2. Apple 4k tv set to match frame rate and match dynamic range


You are not running audio thru Lumagen so it likely won’t do the same thing.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> Yes. Older one (2021) worked and other sources work. Just the new 2022 model. I even returned it and purchased another and same issue.


I’d let Lumagen support know. I don’t have a new model to test but will be curious if others remote the same.


----------



## jont-uk

Kris Deering said:


> I’d let Lumagen support know. I don’t have a new model to test but will be curious if others remote the same.


I'll have a play with my new 2022 ATV (4K w/ethernet) later and let you know my findings ...


----------



## stefanop

I've just installed latest official firmware and tried to blend some video formats. 2.35->2.40 works perfectly to me. I'd like to know if there is a way to default adapt 16:9 to 1.85:1 (slightly cropped top & bottom).
I've also seen In Aspect menu there's Letterbox control: Normal or Zoom. I set both of them but I didn't see any difference in any image format. Which is the suggested setting?


----------



## graticular

Kris Deering said:


> This is what I’m using now with Style 1:
> 
> View attachment 3369136


Thanks Kris, not sure why, but these settings have placed the subtitles perfectly for 1899.


----------



## Kris Deering

stefanop said:


> I've just installed latest official firmware and tried to blend some video formats. 2.35->2.40 works perfectly to me. I'd like to know if there is a way to default adapt 16:9 to 1.85:1 (slightly cropped top & bottom).
> I've also seen In Aspect menu there's Letterbox control: Normal or Zoom. I set both of them but I didn't see any difference in any image format. Which is the suggested setting?


There is the same merge setting for 16x9 and 1.85 in the auto aspect menu. The Zoom normal or zoom is for those with screen aspects that are lower than scope. So if you have a 2.2 or 2.0 screen, if you do Zoom to Zoom, anything wider than the screen will zoom to fill. Normal will not zoom to fill.


----------



## stefanop

Kris Deering said:


> There is the same merge setting for 16x9 and 1.85 in the auto aspect menu. The Zoom normal or zoom is for those with screen aspects that are lower than scope. So if you have a 2.2 or 2.0 screen, if you do Zoom to Zoom, anything wider than the screen will zoom to fill. Normal will not zoom to fill.


Hello Kris, I've got a 2.40:1 screen so I can leave Zoom:Normal.
I've tried 16x9/1.85 setting but it ends with 1.85 format movies inside a 16x9 raster with super small black bar at top and bottom. I'd like having a 16x9 slightly cropped inside a 1.85 format, so I can use only one curtain position for both formats (I have more 1.85 movies than 16x9). I own a Screen Research Transparent screen that only has 6 programmable curtain position and I would like having 2.40 (2.40 & 2.35), 2.20, 2.0, 1.85 (1.85 & 16x9), 1.66 and 4:3.


----------



## avdvplus

Mikesterz said:


> Yes. Older one (2021) worked and other sources work. Just the new 2022 model. I even returned it and purchased another and same issue.


Not sure if it was already mentioned or you already tried but you can set Lumagen to "manually enable all common audio formats" including Atmos by typing on remote MENU 0943. This assumes your audio processor can support all of these formats. If that works and does not create any other problems you can then save it.


----------



## edthomp

My understanding is that the Lumagen sends HDR in an SDR2020 container because the content is already tone mapped, and you don't want the projector to try and tone map it again. Makes sense to me.

However, both SDR and HDR content are being sent as SDR BT2020 from the lumagen to the projector. I prefer SDR movies to be a little less bright than HDR movies.

I have the JVC NZ8 projector, and if I set the Lumagen to send the HDR flag for HDR content I could theoretically have the projector see the HDR flag and automatically switch between user profiles where I would sent brightness independently for SDR and HDR, 'but' the JVC apparently only allows the 'import gamma' for HDR to be 2.2 versus 2.4. Seems like a limitation in the JVC.

If, assuming I even can, set the Lumagen for gamma 2.2 in HDR will that cause any issues? I don't want to compromise picture quality for a convenience.

This all seems like a big hack for a simple problem. Worse case, I just manually select different user profiles set to different light outputs, but I'd prefer it to all be automatic.


----------



## Kris Deering

edthomp said:


> My understanding is that the Lumagen sends HDR in an SDR2020 container because the content is already tone mapped, and you don't want the projector to try and tone map it again. Makes sense to me.
> 
> However, both SDR and HDR content are being sent as SDR BT2020 from the lumagen to the projector. I prefer SDR movies to be a little less bright than HDR movies.
> 
> I have the JVC NZ8 projector, and if I set the Lumagen to send the HDR flag for HDR content I could theoretically have the projector see the HDR flag and automatically switch between user profiles where I would sent brightness independently for SDR and HDR, 'but' the JVC apparently only allows the 'import gamma' for HDR to be 2.2 versus 2.4. Seems like a limitation in the JVC.
> 
> If, assuming I even can, set the Lumagen for gamma 2.2 in HDR will that cause any issues? I don't want to compromise picture quality for a convenience.
> 
> This all seems like a big hack for a simple problem. Worse case, I just manually select different user profiles set to different light outputs, but I'd prefer it to all be automatic.


The JVC is not limited to 2.2 for the import gamma, that is just what the default is. You can create a 2.4 import gamma using the JVC software, it is actually quite easy. You then load it to the slot and you're done.


----------



## bobof

Does the subtitles feature have the ability to zoom out, pillarboxing the content, instead of changing the vertical stretch? I was playing with it this evening for the first time and the stretch look was bothering me a little.


----------



## Jue Liang

edthomp said:


> My understanding is that the Lumagen sends HDR in an SDR2020 container because the content is already tone mapped, and you don't want the projector to try and tone map it again. Makes sense to me.
> 
> However, both SDR and HDR content are being sent as SDR BT2020 from the lumagen to the projector. I prefer SDR movies to be a little less bright than HDR movies.
> 
> I have the JVC NZ8 projector, and if I set the Lumagen to send the HDR flag for HDR content I could theoretically have the projector see the HDR flag and automatically switch between user profiles where I would sent brightness independently for SDR and HDR, 'but' the JVC apparently only allows the 'import gamma' for HDR to be 2.2 versus 2.4. Seems like a limitation in the JVC.
> 
> If, assuming I even can, set the Lumagen for gamma 2.2 in HDR will that cause any issues? I don't want to compromise picture quality for a convenience.
> 
> This all seems like a big hack for a simple problem. Worse case, I just manually select different user profiles set to different light outputs, but I'd prefer it to all be automatic.


Please see my post back in 2020. I found JVC changed the menu with the release of firmware 3.50 which wouldnt allow you to easily select gamma 2.4 anymore in the user modes. You will need to use the autocal software to select 2.4 for the import gamma.








madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread!


The Panasonic mode is under the HDR MODES selection, it still uses tone mapping. At least it is the case in the new firmware. It DOES NOT use tone mapping. The gamma mode in that is labeled as Pana something and is actually just a baseline 2.2 gamma because that is what the Panasonic is based...




www.avsforum.com













madVR ENVY : Anticipation thread!


4:2:2 is always transported via HDMI as 12bit, but of course it's possible to send 8bit and keep the remaining 4bit empty/zero. In my Oppo tests, when switching the Oppo to 8bit, it automatically outputs 8bit for 8bit sources and 10bit for 10bit sources, when using 4:2:0 or 4:4:4. So that's why...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## Jue Liang

Kris Deering said:


> This is what I’m using now with Style 1:
> 
> View attachment 3369136


very nice!

I did some experiments last night. Your settings made the subtitle in 1899 moved up within the 2.4 frame.

In some other Netflix shows, this setting did not move the subtitle up enough. I have to select extra small size, or select copperplate font with medium size.

I didn’t know this trick until I saw your post. Now I can watch streaming contents with subtitle always at full screen width and no ugly distortion, thank you Kris!


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Does the subtitles feature have the ability to zoom out, pillarboxing the content, instead of changing the vertical stretch? I was playing with it this evening for the first time and the stretch look was bothering me a little.


You can just select the next narrower aspect ratio manually if you want to do that. So if watching scope, just manually select 2.2 or 2.0 depending on how much area you need.


----------



## Kris Deering

Jue Liang said:


> very nice!
> 
> I did some experiments last night. Your settings made the subtitle in 1899 moved up within the 2.4 frame.
> 
> In some other Netflix shows, this setting did not move the subtitle up enough. I have to select extra small size, or select copperplate font with medium size.
> 
> I didn’t know this trick until I saw your post. Now I can watch streaming contents with subtitle always at full screen width and no ugly distortion, thank you Kris!


I have requests in to the people at Apple about this, mainly to offer the ability to move the subs or tell the device to always put into active video frame. Not sure if it will ever happen. I also worked with one of the guys that works for google, who are the ones that make the shell apps for most streaming services. He is a big CIH fan and is working to get the app shell to allow for it as well.


----------



## Mikesterz

avdvplus said:


> Not sure if it was already mentioned or you already tried but you can set Lumagen to "manually enable all common audio formats" including Atmos by typing on remote MENU 0943. This assumes your audio processor can support all of these formats. If that works and does not create any other problems you can then save it.


It’s already set to common. Still no atmos. The other options either don’t work or downgrade the audio to dolby digital. Jim is already looking into this.


----------



## avdvplus

Mikesterz said:


> It’s already set to common. Still no atmos. The other options either don’t work or downgrade the audio to dolby digital. Jim is already looking into this.


I have the latest gen ATV with the same hardware as you outlined but it was in another place in my house. My previous gen ATV works without problems with Lumagen as you also experienced but I moved the new ATV to the Lumagen and had the same issue you had so I start testing different ATV configurations and here is what is happening with my setup (not sure if anyone is experiencing the same), also copying @jrp - I have a 4242-18G :

1) New ATV directly connected to Lumagen input does not work in 4K 60Hz (SDR or HDR) in any setting except YCbCr 4:2:0. Does not work in RGB nor YCbCr 4:2:2 (blank screen)
2) I tested other equipment and got the same problem with a Sony PS/4 Pro set to 4K 60Hz RGB connected directly to Lumagen input - blank screen
3) Any other resolution below 4K 60Hz everything works fine.
3) If I put a HDFury Vertex 2 in between these devices and Lumagen then 4K 60Hz does work normally as expected in all settings.
4) Atmos sound did not work with TvOS 16.1 I then updated to TvOS16.1.1 and now ATMOS is working but the previous problems are still present.


----------



## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> You can just select the next narrower aspect ratio manually if you want to do that. So if watching scope, just manually select 2.2 or 2.0 depending on how much area you need.


Doesn't that leave an unnecessary black bar on top?


----------



## edthomp

Hopefully someone can provide some intuition because I have myself confused.

It is my understanding that the current recommendation is that Global MaxLight be set to 5-6x nits.

I am thinking I made a mistake as I was measuring light output with an HDR 100% white test pattern. But then got to thinking that with the Lumagen and HDR, that the pattern would be impacted by the Global MaxLight setting, and as I was testing various aperture settings that the Global MaxLight would then need to be changed, but then how could it be changed since it was part of what I was needing to measure. Confused? Does that make sense. 

For the Lumagen, should I really be measuring an SDR input so that the HDR settings are irrelevant and using that information to determine the Global MaxLight when using HDR? Hopefully, someone can make sense of my question as I am not sure how else to ask it.


----------



## Kris Deering

MDesigns said:


> Doesn't that leave an unnecessary black bar on top?


it pillarboxes as he was asking about.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> It’s already set to common. Still no atmos. The other options either don’t work or downgrade the audio to dolby digital. Jim is already looking into this.


Ok so I was curious about this still. So I got around to testing again today. In my setup with ATV => Lumagen and audio out to MX160, Atmos is still working fine.


----------



## Mikesterz

avdvplus said:


> I have the latest gen ATV with the same hardware as you outlined but it was in another place in my house. My previous gen ATV works without problems with Lumagen as you also experienced but I moved the new ATV to the Lumagen and had the same issue you had so I start testing different ATV configurations and here is what is happening with my setup (not sure if anyone is experiencing the same), also copying @jrp - I have a 4242-18G :
> 
> 1) New ATV directly connected to Lumagen input does not work in 4K 60Hz (SDR or HDR) in any setting except YCbCr 4:2:0. Does not work in RGB nor YCbCr 4:2:2 (blank screen)
> 2) I tested other equipment and got the same problem with a Sony PS/4 Pro set to 4K 60Hz RGB connected directly to Lumagen input - blank screen
> 3) Any other resolution below 4K 60Hz everything works fine.
> 3) If I put a HDFury Vertex 2 in between these devices and Lumagen then 4K 60Hz does work normally as expected in all settings.
> 4) Atmos sound did not work with TvOS 16.1 I then updated to TvOS16.1.1 and now ATMOS is working but the previous problems are still present.


I just want to confirm. You have your “match frame rate” set to ON and you’re getting Atmos? I tried both the latest version firmware and the latest beta version. Both don’t work.

4k 60 with HDR and 422 is working fine for me. Strange that it’s not working with yours.


----------



## Mikesterz

OzHDHT said:


> Ok so I was curious about this still. So I got around to testing again today. In my setup with ATV => Lumagen and audio out to MX160, Atmos is still working fine.
> 
> View attachment 3370248
> View attachment 3370249
> View attachment 3370250


It also works for me unless frame rate match is set to on. Is your frame rate match set to on?


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> I just want to confirm. You have your “match frame rate” set to ON and you’re getting Atmos? I tried both the latest version firmware and the latest beta version. Both don’t work.
> 
> 4k 60 with HDR and 422 is working fine for me. Strange that it’s not working with yours.


Once again, yes I still do, same as stated earlier. Of course I had to miss that screenshot but here you go..


----------



## Mikesterz

OzHDHT said:


> Once again, yes I still do, same as stated earlier. Of course I had to miss that screenshot but here you go..
> View attachment 3370251


I’ll purchase a third one then and see what happens. At least I know it’s possible with the current firmware. Thanks.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> I’ll purchase a third one then and see what happens. At least I know it’s possible with the current firmware. Thanks.


I also just now updated to the latest beta and it too works fine.

It may not be a faulty ATV, it strikes me as pretty odd you'd get two that exhibited the same issue. Maybe it's something in your system that's triggering it to happen. It could be hard to track down though. Have you swapped out hdmi's at all say?


----------



## Mikesterz

OzHDHT said:


> I also just now updated to the latest beta and it too works fine.
> 
> It may not be a faulty ATV, it strikes me as pretty odd you'd get two that exhibited the same issue. Maybe it's something in your system that's triggering it to happen. It could be hard to track down though. Have you swapped out hdmi's at all say?


I tried different hdmi cables and different inputs on the lumagen. My lumagen is the 5348. All inputs set to common. Not sure what else I can try.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> I tried different hdmi cables and different inputs on the lumagen. My lumagen is the 5348. All inputs set to common. Not sure what else I can try.


Yeah thought you may have done that already. Mine's the older 4446 so I guess it's not impossible there's an issue that's only seen on the newer series perhaps.


----------



## Kris Deering

I’m wondering if there is something wonky with the hdmi 2.1 coding on the appletv. It isn’t like other products using 2.1 haven’t had lots of random issues. Look at all the JVC drama.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> I’m wondering if there is something wonky with the hdmi 2.1 coding on the appletv. It isn’t like other products using 2.1 haven’t had lots of random issues. Look at all the JVC drama.


Apple told me that the lumagen isn’t compatible with the Apple TV since it doesn’t support hdmi 2.1.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> Apple told me that the lumagen isn’t compatible with the Apple TV since it doesn’t support hdmi 2.1.


Sounds like very Apple thing to say, put it straight down to HDMI version compatibility issue.


----------



## avdvplus

Mikesterz said:


> I just want to confirm. You have your “match frame rate” set to ON and you’re getting Atmos? I tried both the latest version firmware and the latest beta version. Both don’t work.
> 
> 4k 60 with HDR and 422 is working fine for me. Strange that it’s not working with yours.


Yes, I have both match and frame rate set to ON

What Lumagen model you have?


----------



## avdvplus

Kris Deering said:


> I’m wondering if there is something wonky with the hdmi 2.1 coding on the appletv. It isn’t like other products using 2.1 haven’t had lots of random issues. Look at all the JVC drama.


I had the same thought since when I put a HD Fury device in between the new ATV and the Lumagen everything works fine.


----------



## dankeff

Mikesterz said:


> Apple told me that the lumagen isn’t compatible with the Apple TV since it doesn’t support hdmi 2.1.


I bought a new ATV2022 Ethernet about 2 weeks ago but only just plugged it in. Was worried based on previous posts that it wouldn’t work but I just turned it on and set as below with no issue:

chroma: 4:2:2
Match: match range and frame rate
Atmos: on

all seems to work without issue and according to my soundbar it is receiving atmos.

only slight oddity is that when I select to play a movie it seems to take quite a few seconds of black screen before picture comes on and sound seems to come on first but not sure that is specific to ATV and don’t know if it is just aspect change or something.

I have to add that I have done zero setup on Radiance Pro (I have a 4242++). Have had some screen drama and so now waiting for a new screen from Stewart before I spend time with Jim over the phone.

I am using 18Ghz/Gbps tributaries cables from Jim to go from ATV to radiance pro and a tributaries 10m active cable to go from radiance pro to sound bar.

my setup is as per recommended. Everything into RP and then audio to sound bar and video/audio to projector.

I didn’t have a lot of time to test or play around but can confirm I was getting atmos and ATV said it was in 4:2:2.

i should also add that I switched to 4:2:2 first and after that worked I turned on the match settings.


----------



## avdvplus

OzHDHT said:


> Yeah thought you may have done that already. Mine's the older 4446 so I guess it's not impossible there's an issue that's only seen on the newer series perhaps.


I have a 42424-18G and I am also having a problem with the new ATV but different than ATMOS and more related to 4K 60Hz. As I mentioned on my previous post, I agree that I think it is related to the hdmi chip that the new apple tv is using.


----------



## Mikesterz

avdvplus said:


> Yes, I have both match and frame rate set to ON
> 
> What Lumagen model you have?


5348. I tried a third ATV and same issue. I wonder if it’s something to do with the 5348 model and the new ATV.


----------



## OzHDHT

avdvplus said:


> I have a 42424-18G and I am also having a problem with the new ATV but different than ATMOS and more related to 4K 60Hz. As I mentioned on my previous post, I agree that I think it is related to the hdmi chip that the new apple tv is using.


I've got no such issues with with my 4446, not that I view a ton of 4K 60Hz material. That kind of issue can definitely be related to HDMI cables though, although your Tributaries are obviously totally in spec. 

The newer 5xxx series is my only theory regarding the Atmos issue at the moment.



avdvplus said:


> What Lumagen model you have?


He mentions this literally in posts from today if you go back one page (just to save going over again as he just has).


----------



## avdvplus

OzHDHT said:


> I've got no such issues with with my 4446, not that I view a ton of 4K 60Hz material. That kind of issue can definitely be related to HDMI cables though, although yours seem to be totally in spec.
> 
> The newer 5xxx series is my only theory regarding the Atmos issue at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> He mentions this literally in posts from today if you go back one page (just to save going over again as he just has).


I am using the Tributaries cables recommended by Jim and also tried other cables. It seems that the hdmi issue on the new apple tv is manifesting itself differently depending what Lumagen model you have. As I mentioned previously all problems are resolved if I put a HD Fury device between the new apple tv and the lumagen.


----------



## OzHDHT

avdvplus said:


> I am using the Tributaries cables recommended by Jim and also tried other cables. It seems that the hdmi issue on the new apple tv is manifesting itself differently depending what Lumagen model you have. As I mentioned previously all problems are resolved if I put a HD Fury device between the new apple tv and the lumagen.


Yes cables definitely shouldn't apply in your situ. This may be true regarding the two Radiance series. 

Can you point to some 4K60 material I could test on my setup? I can't think of anything off the top of my head I'd have handy right now.


----------



## avdvplus

OzHDHT said:


> Yes cables definitely shouldn't apply in your situ. This may be true regarding the two Radiance series.
> 
> Can you point to some 4K60 material I could test on my setup? I can't think of anything off the top of my head I'd have handy right now.


My go to movie for 4K 60Hz testing is "Gemini Man", it has Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos. I believe it is only 4K 60Hz with the disc, I do not believe it it will be 60Hz if you stream it.


----------



## OzHDHT

avdvplus said:


> My go to movie for 4K 60Hz testing is "Gemini Man", it has Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos. I believe it is only 4K 60Hz with the disc, I do not believe it it will be 60Hz if you stream it.


Ok so I'm a bit lost then how I can use this to specifically test ATV 4K60 issues if it's not available to stream (I'd also prefer not have to buy it on ATV for test as well)? I can definitely think of non ATV content in 4K60, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk on UHD disc comes to mind straight off the bat.


----------



## Naiera

Mikesterz said:


> Apple told me that the lumagen isn’t compatible with the Apple TV since it doesn’t support hdmi 2.1.


LOL


----------



## avdvplus

OzHDHT said:


> Ok so I'm a bit lost then how I can use this to specifically test ATV 4K60 issues if it's not available to stream (I'd also prefer not have to buy it on ATV for test as well)? I can definitely think of non ATV content in 4K60, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk on UHD disc comes to mind straight off the bat.


To test what I am experiencing is not about playing "Gemini Man" or any other material but having the new apple tv to accept the settings of 4K (SDR or HDR) in 60Hz with anything besides 4:2:0 - RGB or 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 does not work. When I try to set the new apple tv to these settings it just show a blank (dark) screen and then it return to the previous settings since I could accept the settings that is not working.


----------



## OzHDHT

avdvplus said:


> To test what I am experiencing is not about playing "Gemini Man" or any other material but having the new apple tv to accept the settings of 4K (SDR or HDR) in 60Hz with anything besides 4:2:0 - RGB or 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 does not work. When I try to set the new apple tv to these settings it just show a blank (dark) screen and then it return to the previous settings since I could accept the settings that is not working.


Right so an actual display issue, you were kind of vague earlier. This I definitely do not have any issues with either with my old but soon to updated AQ HDMi cable.


----------



## avdvplus

OzHDHT said:


> Right so an actual display issue, you were kind of vague earlier. This I definitely do not have any issues with either with my old but soon to updated AQ HDMi cable.
> View attachment 3370359


OK, thanks. Are you Lumagen output cards 18G or 9G?


----------



## OzHDHT

avdvplus said:


> OK, thanks. Are you Lumagen output cards 18G or 9G?


Switched out to 18G after I got mine as incorrectly specced. Yours 18G?


----------



## giomania

edthomp said:


> Hopefully someone can provide some intuition because I have myself confused.
> 
> It is my understanding that the current recommendation is that Global MaxLight be set to 5-6x nits.
> 
> I am thinking I made a mistake as I was measuring light output with an HDR 100% white test pattern. But then got to thinking that with the Lumagen and HDR, that the pattern would be impacted by the Global MaxLight setting, and as I was testing various aperture settings that the Global MaxLight would then need to be changed, but then how could it be changed since it was part of what I was needing to measure. Confused? Does that make sense.
> 
> For the Lumagen, should I really be measuring an SDR input so that the HDR settings are irrelevant and using that information to determine the Global MaxLight when using HDR? Hopefully, someone can make sense of my question as I am not sure how else to ask it.


Was the Lumagen acting as the test pattern generator?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MDesigns

Kris Deering said:


> it pillarboxes as he was asking about.


Yes, but a subtitle mode could move the active image up with slightly smaller pillarboxes and no upper black bar.


----------



## bobof

Kris Deering said:


> it pillarboxes as he was asking about.





MDesigns said:


> Yes, but a subtitle mode could move the active image up with slightly smaller pillarboxes and no upper black bar.


Yes, sorry, I thought it was obvious; the nice thing about the subtitle shift is not gaining a black bar at the top, so just changing aspect doesn't really do the same thing (as you end up with the bars top and bottom). 

I said pillarboxing, I didn't want to add letterboxing too 

To me at least it seems slightly odd to have a subs mode that only has the option to compromise the image height aspect like it does, I find it quite annoying when the AR of identifiable stuff in the frame is off, it would be enough for the feature not to be useful for me. But then we live in a world where NLS is a thing... lol.

As (subject to some messing around) my bottom bar on my mask screen is independently moveable, I might experiment with seeing if I can come up with controls to just open the bottom mask up a bit more instead.


----------



## edthomp

giomania said:


> Was the Lumagen acting as the test pattern generator?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


No. 
At first, I used Spears & Munsil 1,000 Luminance with BT.2020 by selecting: Advanced video -> Contrast Ratio Tab -> Sequential: On - 100%. But this would have been sent through the Lumagen as HDR and impacted by Global MaxLight I am guessing.

Last night, I used the Lumagen pattern generator: menu -> other -> test pattern -> reference -> UserColor: window 255.255.255 (255 values to make it a white pattern). 

Would there be a better Lumagen test pattern to use for taking light output measurements?


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Yes, sorry, I thought it was obvious; the nice thing about the subtitle shift is not gaining a black bar at the top, so just changing aspect doesn't really do the same thing (as you end up with the bars top and bottom).
> 
> I said pillarboxing, I didn't want to add letterboxing too
> 
> To me at least it seems slightly odd to have a subs mode that only has the option to compromise the image height aspect like it does, I find it quite annoying when the AR of identifiable stuff in the frame is off, it would be enough for the feature not to be useful for me. But then we live in a world where NLS is a thing... lol.
> 
> As (subject to some messing around) my bottom bar on my mask screen is independently moveable, I might experiment with seeing if I can come up with controls to just open the bottom mask up a bit more instead.


I just got a beta of the new firmware and the move up is smaller now, so will be curious if it works better for you. For a narrower aspect you could use move to top, I've never tried it personally, but it may do what you are talking about. You could also build a custom aspect just for subs and save it to a different memory for quick recall.


----------



## by96

avdvplus said:


> To test what I am experiencing is not about playing "Gemini Man" or any other material but having the new apple tv to accept the settings of 4K (SDR or HDR) in 60Hz with anything besides 4:2:0 - RGB or 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 does not work. When I try to set the new apple tv to these settings it just show a blank (dark) screen and then it return to the previous settings since I could accept the settings that is not working.


I just tested my 3rd Gen ATV and LRP 4244-18G. I was able to set 4K/60 SDR with RGB High, RGB Low, and YCbCr with 4:4:4 without issue.


----------



## Kris Deering

I will see if they have the new model at Costco. If they do, I will pick one up for testing as I can return it easily. I am still using the Gen1 version of the AppleTV 4K. It works perfect for me, so I've never seen a point in upgrading (I don't use the remote, I use a Harmony remote). I use a 5348, but also have a 4 series here as well, so I could see how it responds to my setup.


----------



## avdvplus

OzHDHT said:


> Switched out to 18G after I got mine as incorrectly specced. Yours 18G?


Yes, my are all 18G input and output.


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> I just got a beta of the new firmware and the move up is smaller now, so will be curious if it works better for you.


Is Jim going to release the beta later today to the masses?


----------



## Kris Deering

desray2k said:


> Is Jim going to release the beta later today to the masses?


Not sure what the plan is for release, that is totally up to Jim and Pat. They probably want to go through it for a bit and make sure there are no bugs that crept in because it is a new FPGA.


----------



## jrp

The test release Kris has was not a Beta candidate, but Patrick wanted to get Kris to test some of the improvements while working on a couple more bug fixes. Once the bug fixes are complete, Pat will work on a full-speed synthesis.

We do not have a schedule but I am hoping we will have the next Beta release in the next week or so.

Once the next Beta is out, we should be able to work on the DTM desaturation improvements.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> I will see if they have the new model at Costco. If they do, I will pick one up for testing as I can return it easily. I am still using the Gen1 version of the AppleTV 4K. It works perfect for me, so I've never seen a point in upgrading (I don't use the remote, I use a Harmony remote). I use a 5348, but also have a 4 series here as well, so I could see how it responds to my setup.


Upgrading to a gen3 from gen2 I’m noticing a nicer picture quality. I don’t know if it’s the HDR10+ that it now supports or because of the way it handles streaming bandwidth. Or maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.


----------



## Kris Deering

Okay. Got a Gen3 AppleTV today and connected it to my 5348 via a 3-meter Bullet Train 8K HDMI cable. No issues with Atmos at all with the default settings for AV on the AppleTV or using what I typically set them at. Atmos work with all content I tested. So not sure why some are having issues with the 5348, but I cannot reproduce. I also tried it on the 4 series unit I have here and no issues there either. 

The Gen3 unit I got was a 64GB unit wif-fi, it was all they had at Costco. I can't imagine the lack of ethernet port would make any difference.


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> Upgrading to a gen3 from gen2 I’m noticing a nicer picture quality. I don’t know if it’s the HDR10+ that it now supports or because of the way it handles streaming bandwidth. Or maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.


HDR10+ is not used with Lumagen, so the stream is no different. Hard to say if any of the new processing power would change picture quality but you never know.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Okay. Got a Gen3 AppleTV today and connected it to my 5348 via a 3-meter Bullet Train 8K HDMI cable. No issues with Atmos at all with the default settings for AV on the AppleTV or using what I typically set them at. Atmos work with all content I tested. So not sure why some are having issues with the 5348, but I cannot reproduce. I also tried it on the 4 series unit I have here and no issues there either.
> 
> The Gen3 unit I got was a 64GB unit wif-fi, it was all they had at Costco. I can't imagine the lack of ethernet port would make any difference.


Have you tried it with match frame rate set to on? That’s the only time Atmos didn’t work for me.


----------



## OzHDHT

Mikesterz said:


> Have you tried it with match frame rate set to on? That’s the only time Atmos didn’t work for me.


I'm going to take a stab in the dark but I'm pretty sure Kris is pretty particular about frame rates being matched and not modified by the ATV.


----------



## alv

Kris Deering said:


> The Gen3 unit I got was a 64GB unit wif-fi, it was all they had at Costco. I can't imagine the lack of ethernet port would make any difference.


I actually get slower speeds with ethernet on a previous generation unit. It is weird.


----------



## Roland Janus

jrp said:


> 1) With so many possible combinations there is not a perfect solution, but after careful thought we believe the change to NLS being a "toggle" makes sense.
> 
> To enable NLS for 16:9 content you can, as it has always been, press 16:9 and then NLS. This is a "discrete code sequence" in that you always end up with NLS active when you press these two buttons in sequence. To have NLS off, you can press just the 16:9 button. With a Harmony remote, for 16:9 NLS you can make a macro of these two keys. This was the optimal thing to do even before NLS became a toggle. Then for 16:9 without NLS send a Harmony command for 16:9 source aspect. This is no different than before this change.
> 
> Most people I have talked to who want NLS, just enable "NLS when applicable" in the Auto Aspect menu. The change to make NLS a toggle seemed a reasonable request since you can have discrete commands as described above. Additional source aspect cases would require additional two-button sequences be programmed into the Harmony on a per aspect ratio basis.
> 
> We realize there might be a use case that we did not think of. If you have a case that the above does not cover, please let us know and we can consider options. One option we did consider, and dismissed, is to make the NLS toggle, or not, a programmable setting like we have for other remote button functions. We prefer not adding this, but would consider this extra option if there is a use case where it is needed.
> 
> =============
> 
> 2) The number of active lines in 1.85 is close to the entire source raster used for 16:9. We will continue to work on the cases that video can "look like" one and be the other. With Auto Aspect we have had the ability to merge 1.85 and 16:9 source detection to be selected as 16:9. We just added the "merge to 1.85" option for this feature. This works as expected for 1.85 content, and crops just 2% off the top and 2% off the bottom for 16:9 source.
> 
> It sounds like you may not like this new option since it does crop a bit off top and bottom. If you have an example where the aspect selection blocks visibility of content you need to see, please let us know the source device, the content provider (e.g. Netflix), the title, the time stamp and what to do (e.g. press pause) to recreate the issue, we can look into this.


Was only now able to respond.

NLS:
The toggle button is actually fine. Since Kodi uses 16:9 for it's GUI, I've changed to use selective NLS now and also disabled auto-NLS.

Regarding AA:
I haven't noticed the merge option before, it's great thanks!
Two occurrences so far where AA has issues with:

1. The credits of "Sing 2", where there is actual content within the credits, triggers AA to switch several times back and forth.
2. At the beginning of every episode of "The book of Boba Fett" is a dark part with the Star Wars logo and the title. On the screen, it is clearly distinguishable as gray, while the surrounding part is black. AA doesn't recognize it and sticks with 16:9 until the actual episode starts.

That's on a Shield (old version) with Kodi.
Not such a big deal of course, but would still be great if that could be improved.


----------



## bobof

alv said:


> I actually get slower speeds with ethernet on a previous generation unit. It is weird.


That is odd; the AppleTV wired ethernet is excellent in my experience on both HD and 4K Gen 1 & 2. It consistently speed tests at very close to gigabit speeds, something a lot of desktop computers struggle to do.


----------



## GerryWaz

OzHDHT said:


> I'm going to take a stab in the dark but I'm pretty sure Kris is pretty particular about frame rates being not being matched and not modified by the ATV.


Is the recommendation to have Match Frame Rate set to Off with the new Apple TV4k?

What about Match Dynamic Range?

If I don't set both to Off, I get video issues. Mainly, when going from a show or movie back to the main menu (or vice versa), I'll get a mainly white or black screen. Setting both to Off seemed to fix that pretty well.

Any other recommended video settings for the new Apple Tv 4K?


----------



## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> Have you tried it with match frame rate set to on? That’s the only time Atmos didn’t work for me.


Yes. I tried it with the default settings in the AppleTV first with no issues. Then I switched to my standard setup:

4K SDR 60
Chroma at 420
Match Range/Rate ON

I also tried with chroma at 444


----------



## Kris Deering

alv said:


> I actually get slower speeds with ethernet on a previous generation unit. It is weird.


Not sure why that would be. I use Ethernet with my AppleTV 4K Gen 1 and my speeds when I check them are almost identical to the speed directly off the router (900+)


----------



## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> Was only now able to respond.
> 
> NLS:
> The toggle button is actually fine. Since Kodi uses 16:9 for it's GUI, I've changed to use selective NLS now and also disabled auto-NLS.
> 
> Regarding AA:
> I haven't noticed the merge option before, it's great thanks!
> Two occurrences so far where AA has issues with:
> 
> 1. The credits of "Sing 2", where there is actual content within the credits, triggers AA to switch several times back and forth.
> 2. At the beginning of every episode of "The book of Boba Fett" is a dark part with the Star Wars logo and the title. On the screen, it is clearly distinguishable as gray, while the surrounding part is black. AA doesn't recognize it and sticks with 16:9 until the actual episode starts.
> 
> That's on a Shield (old version) with Kodi.
> Not such a big deal of course, but would still be great if that could be improved.


I'll try and look at these this weekend. I think I have Sing 2. I'll see what the firmware I'm testing does with these.


----------



## Kris Deering

GerryWaz said:


> Is the recommendation to have Match Frame Rate set to Off with the new Apple TV4k?
> 
> What about Match Dynamic Range?
> 
> If I don't set both to Off, I get video issues. Mainly, when going from a show or movie back to the main menu (or vice versa), I'll get a mainly white or black screen. Setting both to Off seemed to fix that pretty well.
> 
> Any other recommended video settings for the new Apple Tv 4K?


What you are seeing is not a video issue, it is the TV re-locking onto a signal (lose lock, re-lock). Every TV handles this differently and it takes different amounts of time. Apple setup the AppleTV so that it always outputs 4K60 in HDR all the time so the display NEVER sees a change in frame rate or dynamic range, so it never needs to change picture modes or anything else. This will make it so you don't see resynchs. Kaleidescape does the same thing for frame rate (not dynamic range) for the same reason. But what this means is that you are seeing all content being converted to HDR that isn't and you are seeing the AppleTV frame rate convert all the content that is not 60p (which is the vast majority) to 60p. For some people this is perfectly fine, for others it is not. My projector doesn't take more than a few seconds to resynch to a new signal type. Others can take what feels like an eternity (the RS4500 is one of the worse for this).


----------



## dlinsley

Roland Janus said:


> 1. The credits of "Sing 2", where there is actual content within the credits, triggers AA to switch several times back and forth.





Kris Deering said:


> I'll try and look at these this weekend. I think I have Sing 2. I'll see what the firmware I'm testing does with these.


Similar to Sing 2, the credits in Netflix's Single All The Way does this. It flicks between what looks like 2.1 and 2.0. Probably switching from Instant to 0.5s solves it, I've just not checked. I do often watch credits, but it's not a big deal either.


----------



## GerryWaz

Kris Deering said:


> What you are seeing is not a video issue, it is the TV re-locking onto a signal (lose lock, re-lock). Every TV handles this differently and it takes different amounts of time. Apple setup the AppleTV so that it always outputs 4K60 in HDR all the time so the display NEVER sees a change in frame rate or dynamic range, so it never needs to change picture modes or anything else. This will make it so you don't see resynchs. Kaleidescape does the same thing for frame rate (not dynamic range) for the same reason. But what this means is that you are seeing all content being converted to HDR that isn't and you are seeing the AppleTV frame rate convert all the content that is not 60p (which is the vast majority) to 60p. For some people this is perfectly fine, for others it is not. My projector doesn't take more than a few seconds to resynch to a new signal type. Others can take what feels like an eternity (the RS4500 is one of the worse for this).


Very interesting. Thanks, Kris.


----------



## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Yes. I tried it with the default settings in the AppleTV first with no issues. Then I switched to my standard setup:
> 
> 4K SDR 60
> Chroma at 420
> Match Range/Rate ON
> 
> I also tried with chroma at 444


Thanks for checking. Seems like my lumagen has the issue. I’ll reach out to Jim.


----------



## bobof

2022 Wired ethernet AppleTV 4k Gen3 appears to be working fine for me on Atmos, too. UI set to 4k50 SDR 420, match DR and framerate both enabled. Lumagen 5348, output 3 to AVP Monoprice HTP1, output 2 to projector, both are set to BOTH. Audio EDID set to "COMMON".

Initially I thought it might be playing up, but then I realised I was trying "All quiet on the western front" on Netflix - which though it has the Atmos badge, it seems the English soundtrack is only 5.1. The German soundtrack is Atmos. All other titles and players tested play Atmos fine.


----------



## Kris Deering

Roland Janus said:


> Was only now able to respond.
> 
> NLS:
> The toggle button is actually fine. Since Kodi uses 16:9 for it's GUI, I've changed to use selective NLS now and also disabled auto-NLS.
> 
> Regarding AA:
> I haven't noticed the merge option before, it's great thanks!
> Two occurrences so far where AA has issues with:
> 
> 1. The credits of "Sing 2", where there is actual content within the credits, triggers AA to switch several times back and forth.
> 2. At the beginning of every episode of "The book of Boba Fett" is a dark part with the Star Wars logo and the title. On the screen, it is clearly distinguishable as gray, while the surrounding part is black. AA doesn't recognize it and sticks with 16:9 until the actual episode starts.
> 
> That's on a Shield (old version) with Kodi.
> Not such a big deal of course, but would still be great if that could be improved.


I see the Book of Bobba thing. Pat said he’d look at it. I also see the small changes with sing 2 credits. They are eliminated with .5 so something in a frame is throwing it off that is being averaged out with .5. I highly recommend .5 for anyone that isn’t going to watch movies and wants instant switching during the movie. Way less of a chance for some random blip thing like this.


----------



## ajbriones

I have yet to get my projector/LRP calibrated, not done with room treatment so the lighting isn’t right in the room yet. Question is, with Kaleidescape HDR content I occasionally get these super blown out hotspot anrtifacts and sometimes I can’t get rid of them no matter what I do with the HDR settings. Our window treatments are probably going to take a couple more months to get here so I’m hoping I can at least get rid of these artifacts until I can get a proper calibration done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## jbrinegar

ajbriones said:


> I have yet to get my projector/LRP calibrated, not done with room treatment so the lighting isn’t right in the room yet. Question is, with Kaleidescape HDR content I occasionally get these super blown out hotspot anrtifacts and sometimes I can’t get rid of them no matter what I do with the HDR settings. Our window treatments are probably going to take a couple more months to get here so I’m hoping I can at least get rid of these artifacts until I can get a proper calibration done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 3371169


Does turning d pad up help?
Is that scene from No Time to Die? Time stamp for me to compare


----------



## ajbriones

jbrinegar said:


> Does turning d pad up help?
> Is that scene from No Time to Die? Time stamp for me to compare


Yes, No Time To Die. The scene is called “We Need to Leave” and it is when Bond looks down at his shifter. Funny, how do I display timestamp on kscape? I just realized I don’t know how.

Pad settings make small changes but doesn’t quite get rid of it.


----------



## ajbriones

jbrinegar said:


> Does turning d pad up help?
> Is that scene from No Time to Die? Time stamp for me to compare


I uploaded a video of what I’m seeing because I also noticed that if I mess with the kscape menu I can make it disappear, which has me stumped.


----------



## Naiera

ajbriones said:


> Yes, No Time To Die. The scene is called “We Need to Leave” and it is when Bond looks down at his shifter. Funny, how do I display timestamp on kscape? I just realized I don’t know how.
> 
> Pad settings make small changes but doesn’t quite get rid of it.


This looks like the issue I was having with Black Hawk Down in the post linked to below. I had turned DeSat off, and turning it on again fixed it. I've never seen anything like it since and I've been running DeSat at Medium for the vast majority of that time.









New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series


I think I understand DeSat in DTM, it looks for bright spots in a frame and determines if it might be saturated. Is that correct? What does the auto setting do? The DTM "Auto" setting for DeSat follows the studio reference standard for what to do when pixels are too bright to show at the...




www.avsforum.com


----------



## ajbriones

Naiera said:


> This looks like the issue I was having with Black Hawk Down in the post linked to below. I had turned DeSat off, and turning it on again fixed it. I've never seen anything like it since and I've been running DeSat at Medium for the vast majority of that time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
> 
> 
> I think I understand DeSat in DTM, it looks for bright spots in a frame and determines if it might be saturated. Is that correct? What does the auto setting do? The DTM "Auto" setting for DeSat follows the studio reference standard for what to do when pixels are too bright to show at the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.avsforum.com


unfortunately, turning DeSat off or setting it to any setting doesn’t do anything.


----------



## ajbriones

I cranked up Global MaxLight and that seemed to do the trick for now. I really do need a proper calibration but it’s not going to be until Jan or Feb and I’m hoping to get a quick fix so we can enjoy movies until then.


----------



## Naiera

ajbriones said:


> unfortunately, turning DeSat off or setting it to any setting doesn’t do anything.
> View attachment 3371261


----------



## jbrinegar

ajbriones said:


> Yes, No Time To Die. The scene is called “We Need to Leave”



I’m not sure what’s going on.
I don’t have this movie on my KScape, but I do have the disc. Here’s the settings I use (I get about 90 nits):










Do you have any motion enhancement settings on your PJ turned on? Seems like I remember some artifacts like yours showing up on some PJ settings causing the panels to overdrive, but I don’t recall exactly what settings it was


----------



## Mikesterz

ajbriones said:


> I have yet to get my projector/LRP calibrated, not done with room treatment so the lighting isn’t right in the room yet. Question is, with Kaleidescape HDR content I occasionally get these super blown out hotspot anrtifacts and sometimes I can’t get rid of them no matter what I do with the HDR settings. Our window treatments are probably going to take a couple more months to get here so I’m hoping I can at least get rid of these artifacts until I can get a proper calibration done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 3371169


This would to happen to me after I install a new beta. Try going back to the previous build on your lumagen and see if that helps.


----------



## ajbriones

jbrinegar said:


> I’m not sure what’s going on.
> I don’t have this movie on my KScape, but I do have the disc. Here’s the settings I use (I get about 90 nits):
> 
> View attachment 3371268
> 
> 
> Do you have any motion enhancement settings on your PJ turned on? Seems like I remember some artifacts like yours showing up on some PJ settings causing the panels to overdrive, but I don’t recall exactly what settings it was


I am in dynamic mode on the Epson LS12000 with all enhancements off. I’ve been able to get it to disappear completely with MaxLight at 3400, it just seems like a higher value than I expected.

Thanks for checking it out on disc! If I find it on a different movie I’ll report back.


----------



## bobof

ajbriones said:


> I have yet to get my projector/LRP calibrated, not done with room treatment so the lighting isn’t right in the room yet. Question is, with Kaleidescape HDR content I occasionally get these super blown out hotspot anrtifacts and sometimes I can’t get rid of them no matter what I do with the HDR settings. Our window treatments are probably going to take a couple more months to get here so I’m hoping I can at least get rid of these artifacts until I can get a proper calibration done. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 3371169


What are you outputting from the Lumagen? Is it outputting in SDR? Is it possible your projector is also trying to tone map on top of it? If you press OK on the Lumagen it will give some info that might be helpful to anyone trying to reproduce. 

For what it is worth I don't see that artifact with the disc version playing on my Oppo clone through the 5348 and out to a JVC DLAX7900.


----------



## jbrinegar

ajbriones said:


> I am in dynamic mode on the Epson LS12000 with all enhancements off. I’ve been able to get it to disappear completely with MaxLight at 3400, it just seems like a higher value than I expected.
> 
> Thanks for checking it out on disc! If I find it on a different movie I’ll report back.


some setting must be off. If your max light is 3400, everything should be too dim.

Just to confirm, your Lumagen is outputting sdr2020, correct?
And your projector is outputting d65/gamma 2.4, correct?


----------



## alv

I am about ready to get rid of cable. Will get a Tivo OTA for broadcast stations. How does a Tivo Edge work for streaming compared to Apple TV.


----------



## Mikesterz

alv said:


> I am about ready to get rid of cable. Will get a Tivo OTA for broadcast stations. How does a Tivo Edge work for streaming compared to Apple TV.


I cut the cord a while ago. Look into Channels DVR running on a nas and a HD Homerun for the tuner. The Channels DVR can integrate with anyone’s paid tv subscription through TV Everywhere if you wanted to add those cable channels and integrate it with your guide.


----------



## sjschaff

After many years with Tivo (even back to the Sony days) including the Roamio product, I finally switched away, based on various product failures and upkeep costs. Now, I am using the HDHomerun Flex 4K along with running the Channels DVR on the Synology NAS with the Channels client on my Nvidia Shield Pro. The major setup fix was separating the Channels DVR and Client. The Nvidia seems to have had problems handling multiple-channel recordings while concurrently playing OTA. Separating the functions solved that.


----------



## Sittler27

Hey guys - just trying to get the most out of my setup, and have learned recently that I may be better off with a 2022 ATV 4K vs. my Shield Pro due to the Shield not doing frame rate switching properly on streaming apps. Is this true?

I use Plex on the Shield for 80% of my stuff (locally streamed), the rest is Netflix/Amazon Prime/Disney+ on the Shield.

On the other hand, I care immensely about audio formats with my 7.2.2 setup - does the ATV still have Dolby bitstream issues that the Shield does not have? What are those issues?


----------



## fatherom

Sittler27 said:


> does the ATV still have Dolby bitstream issues


The ATV doesn't bitstream at all. It converts everything to PCM before sending it out, basically. If you want to bitstream audio, you need to stick with something like the Shield.


----------



## Sittler27

fatherom said:


> The ATV doesn't bitstream at all. It converts everything to PCM before sending it out, basically. If you want to bitstream audio, you need to stick with something like the Shield.


What are the drawbacks of not bitstreaming and sending PCM?


----------



## fatherom

Sittler27 said:


> What are the drawbacks of not bitstreaming and sending PCM?


Well, hi-res codec soundtracks from locally streamed content won't have height information (Atmos, DTS:X will be converted to PCM without the height info). That's the main drawback, IMO.


----------



## docrog

fatherom said:


> Well, hi-res codec soundtracks from locally streamed content won't have height information (Atmos, DTS:X will be converted to PCM without the height info). That's the main drawback, IMO.


Am I correct that you're stating that, although ATV may indicate that content is Atmos, height info does not occur? If so, how can they represent it in their listings?


----------



## fatherom

docrog said:


> Am I correct that you're stating that, although ATV may indicate that content is Atmos, height info does not occur? If so, how can they represent it in their listings?


No, I specifically mentioned locally streamed content (through something like Infuse). So if you have a disc rip or mkv with full TrueHD Atmos (lossless atmos), and you're playing it through infuse, you'll lose the height info since it's been decoded to PCM before leaving the Apple TV.

However, when watching a movie served by iTunes/VUDU/Movies Anywhere/Disney+/Netflix/etc (streaming from a provider), then the Atmos is carried over Dolby MAT, which is lossy Atmos that can be sent from the Apple TV to a receiver, and the receiver will definitely say "Atmos" on it (mine does). And in this case, you get height info.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I'm curious what, if any, enhancement processing people are applying to 3D movie inputs to their LRPs? My projector offers some artificial sharpening for frame-packed 3D which I have avoided and I do have Darbee on at 35 with a little sharpening in the LRP at 2-2-normal. When Kris calibrated my projector, I didn't have the LRP yet. He did a grayscale cal on one of the 3D modes, which one I can't remember. 😬 But the 3D cinema is really dark and dynamic looks pretty green. Can you do a 3D LUT for frame-packed 3D in an LRP? I'm hoping to get Kris back here in the next year to do up a full cal with 3D LUT. Although even his limited cal using the in-built CMS in the Epson looks really great. It would be nice to try to squeak out some additional light for the 3D movies though without giving up all semblance of accurate color. 😬😬


----------



## Kris Deering

Deleted


----------



## Mikesterz

Sittler27 said:


> Hey guys - just trying to get the most out of my setup, and have learned recently that I may be better off with a 2022 ATV 4K vs. my Shield Pro due to the Shield not doing frame rate switching properly on streaming apps. Is this true?
> 
> I use Plex on the Shield for 80% of my stuff (locally streamed), the rest is Netflix/Amazon Prime/Disney+ on the Shield.
> 
> On the other hand, I care immensely about audio formats with my 7.2.2 setup - does the ATV still have Dolby bitstream issues that the Shield does not have? What are those issues?


The ATV seems to be the best streamer since it supports more high quality features per streaming channel compared to other streamers. For playing back movies on a server I recommend a dedicated media player like the zidoo. You’ll be missing out if you go the one device for everything route.


----------



## Mikesterz

sjschaff said:


> After many years with Tivo (even back to the Sony days) including the Roamio product, I finally switched away, based on various product failures and upkeep costs. Now, I am using the HDHomerun Flex 4K along with running the Channels DVR on the Synology NAS with the Channels client on my Nvidia Shield Pro. The major setup fix was separating the Channels DVR and Client. The Nvidia seems to have had problems handling multiple-channel recordings while concurrently playing OTA. Separating the functions solved that.


That’s pretty much my setup as well. Except I use the Apple TV for my channels DVR app. I also share a spectrum account and log into it through the Channels DVR server to get the cable channels integrated with my OTA TV. OTV TV gets you great quality local tv. Much better than YouTube TV or cable. Great for sports.


----------



## OzHDHT

That's now my config since buying a Z1000 a couple of months ago. Although I only just got it running smoothly for large MKV file playback by upgrading to network with a gigabyte switch. That's one thing the ATV didn't struggle with via wifi even.


----------



## paulromi

I have a JVC NX5, lumagen radiance pro, fed by a Zidoo and oppo 203 through a Marantz 7702mkii. Without the lumagen in the mix 3D plays fine. Putting the lumagen in the mix I see the side by side 3D image( split screen only) I can’t get it to do the 3D thing. Any suggestions? Settings on the lumagen or projector to make it work? EDID issue? I’m at a loss.


----------



## Clark Burk

paulromi said:


> I have a JVC NX5, lumagen radiance pro, fed by a Zidoo and oppo 203 through a Marantz 7702mkii. Without the lumagen in the mix 3D plays fine. Putting the lumagen in the mix I see the side by side 3D image( split screen only) I can’t get it to do the 3D thing. Any suggestions? Settings on the lumagen or projector to make it work? EDID issue? I’m at a loss.


I'll take a guess and say the Lumagen may be upscaling the file. Blu-ray 3D only works at 1080p. Turn off the upscaling and see if it plays correctly.


----------



## Aracorn

So I have a question, I'm sure this topic has been covered, I've searched and I can't find it. Any who my lumagen pro. With any light like flash lights, or sunlight. It becomes this pixelated mess. Some yellows, reds, purples. Other than that. It gives me a wonderful picture on my Epson 5050.what can I do to alleviate this?

Thank you


----------



## Naiera

Mikesterz said:


> The ATV seems to be the best streamer since it supports more high quality features per streaming channel compared to other streamers. For playing back movies on a server I recommend a dedicated media player like the zidoo. You’ll be missing out if you go the one device for everything route.


This is also how I stream. The Zidoo is the most random piece of consumer electronics I've ever owned, but after jumping through a few hoops it plays everything I wanted it to and does so better than I expected. Evangelion 3.0+1.11, I'm ready. Gimme that Japanese UHD Blu-ray _now_! 🤪

As for the network part of it, I put a 2TB 2.5" hard drive in there (to be upgraded in the future, of course). Before I received it, I tried to stream from my iMac, which gets a 500+ Mbps connection to the Netgear Nighthawk, which is connected to the Zidoo via cable. The Predator UHD MKV still had to pause for about a second three times during the movie to buffer. I've seen nothing of the kind since I put the hard drive in there, with the only downside being that it takes forever it transfer files.


----------



## bobof

Aracorn said:


> So I have a question, I'm sure this topic has been covered, I've searched and I can't find it. Any who my lumagen pro. With any light like flash lights, or sunlight. It becomes this pixelated mess. Some yellows, reds, purples. Other than that. It gives me a wonderful picture on my Epson 5050.what can I do to alleviate this?


I don't think it's a typical result, so you'll need to give a bit more info about what you are doing. An example of the content (with timestamps, maybe a screenshot), what is the source, what are the input and output format shown in the Lumagen (press OK once on the remote control to bring up the first info page), your DTM settings, whether you've created a 3DLUT calibration, what mode the projector is in, etc. There are lots of things that could be going on.


----------



## Clark Burk

@jrp, Is it still looking possible that we may have a TM updated firmware to try before years end?


----------



## paulromi

Clark Burk said:


> I'll take a guess and say the Lumagen may be upscaling the file. Blu-ray 3D only works at 1080p. Turn off the upscaling and see if it plays correctly.


Thank you for your response. Could you show me exactly in the menu where turning off the upscaling would be?


----------



## Sittler27

Mikesterz said:


> The ATV seems to be the best streamer since it supports more high quality features per streaming channel compared to other streamers. For playing back movies on a server I recommend a dedicated media player like the zidoo. You’ll be missing out if you go the one device for everything route.


Interesting, not sure if it's worth it for me picking up an ATV just for streaming as anything worth watching (which is 80%+ of the time) I'm usually playing via Plex on the Shield where everything including frame rate synching and height audio works fine.

It's only on a whim that I'm streaming stuff on the Shield's apps.


----------



## Aracorn

bobof said:


> I don't think it's a typical result, so you'll need to give a bit more info about what you are doing. An example of the content (with timestamps, maybe a screenshot), what is the source, what are the input and output format shown in the Lumagen (press OK once on the remote control to bring up the first info page), your DTM settings, whether you've created a 3DLUT calibration, what mode the projector is in, etc. There are lots of things that could be going on.


I won't be able to mess around with this for a few days, I'm working 12s. But I can say it's watching movies off my apple tv. And both modes are in hdr. I'll try to get a screen shot when I can.


----------



## Kris Deering

paulromi said:


> Thank you for your response. Could you show me exactly in the menu where turning off the upscaling would be?


You have to go into the output setup menu and there is a line that allows you to configure 3D specifically for output resolution, type of 3D signal you want, what CMS you want to use and everything else.


----------



## bobof

Aracorn said:


> I won't be able to mess around with this for a few days, I'm working 12s. But I can say it's watching movies off my apple tv. And both modes are in hdr. I'll try to get a screen shot when I can.


"Both modes are in HDR" may sound alarm bells. For best results you usually want to be sending HDR to the LRP, but the output of the Lumagen be SDR (either REC709, 2020 or P3, depending on the gamut capability of your projector and your calibration capabilities). If you send HDR out of the LRP you need to be very cautious and know exactly what your display will do with that signal. There is a lot of room for it to go wrong.

When you get a chance some screenshots of settings and ideally the artifacts in question will probably get you some good feedback from the collective brain trust that resides on this thread


----------



## Mikesterz

Aracorn said:


> So I have a question, I'm sure this topic has been covered, I've searched and I can't find it. Any who my lumagen pro. With any light like flash lights, or sunlight. It becomes this pixelated mess. Some yellows, reds, purples. Other than that. It gives me a wonderful picture on my Epson 5050.what can I do to alleviate this?
> 
> Thank you


Try a different firmware version and see if it still happens. It happened to me before when we updated the lumagen at the same time we added a new projector. We thought the projector was broken but it ended up being the firmware update that was causing the issue.


----------



## bjorg

This is another situation where an external configuration editor could be useful: share your backup and an expert could easily review it.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

bjorg said:


> This is another situation where an external configuration editor could be useful: share your backup and an expert could easily review it.


I would expect the dealer who supplied the unit should be able to give advice and have a look at the clients configuration on their own unit. That is what i do for my clients. They can send me their file and i can review or make changes for them and email it back. It does take longer than looking at an editor but only by around the time it takes to download the file in to one of my Radiance Pro units.


----------



## paulromi

bobof said:


> "Both modes are in HDR" may sound alarm bells. For best results you usually want to be sending HDR to the LRP, but the output of the Lumagen be SDR (either REC709, 2020 or P3, depending on the gamut capability of your projector and your calibration capabilities). If you send HDR out of the LRP you need to be very cautious and know exactly what your display will do with that signal. There is a lot of room for it to go wrong.
> 
> When you get a chance some screenshots of settings and ideally the artifacts in question will probably get you some good feedback from the collective brain trust that resides on this thread





Kris Deering said:


> You have to go into the output setup menu and there is a line that allows you to configure 3D specifically for output resolution, type of 3D signal you want, what CMS you want to use and everything else.


I’ve posted shots of my settings. I think everything appears to as it should.


----------



## Rozy63

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a Lumagen for use with my CIH scope screen, NZ9, with a Shield Pro and Denon x4700h. I also am playing with a Vertex2 now, returnable till Jan. 

I assume the Lumagen can do what the Vertex does and more, correct? The fewer items in my chain the better IMHO. I also have a Zidoo N9X and am on the fence regarding keeping that. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## paulromi

Clark Burk said:


> I'll take a guess and say the Lumagen may be upscaling the file. Blu-ray 3D only works at 1080p. Turn off the upscaling and see if it plays correctly.


I made some headway....I was able to get a 3D image by changing the output to 1080P60 and going on the Quickkeys to manually change to 3D sbs...it appears the projector was only receiving a 4k signal previously. The issue I have now is the lines/shadowing showing in the pic attached. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## patcub

Aracorn said:


> I won't be able to mess around with this for a few days, I'm working 12s. But I can say it's watching movies off my apple tv. And both modes are in hdr. I'll try to get a screen shot when I can.


Not sure if your issue is similar to what I posted about in November of 2021 when I first setup my Lumagen. I've attached a picture of what I was seeing, but my issue was all due to me incorrectly trying to have the Lumagen output an HDR movie as HDR to the projector. Doing that resulted in both the Lumagen and the projector tone mapping the image, which is obviously not necessary and caused issues. I have since figured out how to not have my JVC perform tone mapping on an HDR image, but really the best way as others have mentioned is to have the Lumagen output the HDR in an SDR container. That way the Lumagen is still performing tone mapping but the projector is treating it like a normal SDR image.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

paulromi said:


> I made some headway....I was able to get a 3D image by changing the output to 1080P60 and going on the Quickkeys to manually change to 3D sbs...it appears the projector was only receiving a 4k signal previously. The issue I have now is the lines/shadowing showing in the pic attached. Any thoughts on this?


Go into output mode menu, select the 3D option click and set everything for the outputs to Auto, including the output resolution. This will pass the metadata to the projector and eliminate your problems.be sure to do a save to preserve the settings for 3D.


----------



## ajbriones

bobof said:


> What are you outputting from the Lumagen? Is it outputting in SDR? Is it possible your projector is also trying to tone map on top of it? If you press OK on the Lumagen it will give some info that might be helpful to anyone trying to reproduce..


i’m


jbrinegar said:


> some setting must be off. If your max light is 3400, everything should be too dim.
> 
> Just to confirm, your Lumagen is outputting sdr2020, correct?
> And your projector is outputting d65/gamma 2.4, correct?


Thanks so much to everyone who replied and messaged me about this. Apologies for the delay, Avatar 2 premiere stuff had me busy.

Idk how (might have been updating firmware?) but the output got switched to HDR2020. switching it back and dialing down MaxLight got everything back to normal. Thank you!


----------



## DVD MAN

Hi I am trying to make adjustments for lip sync Issues with my JVC NX9 and Apple TV 4K.
I have a Marantz pre pro set to Auto Lip Sync On

should I be making any adjustments to the AV delay controls?


----------



## Kris Deering

DVD MAN said:


> View attachment 3372478
> 
> Hi I am trying to make adjustments for lip sync Issues with my JVC NX9 and Apple TV 4K.
> I have a Marantz pre pro set to Auto Lip Sync On
> 
> should I be making any adjustments to the AV delay controls?


 While it may not always be the case, I know that in the majority of the cases I've seen setting the Marantz/Denon AVRs/SSPs to AUTO for lip synch usually resulted in worst performance than just turning it off. 

The only reason you would need video delay in the Lumagen is if the VIDEO is before the AUDIO in a synch test (as adding more audio delay would only make it worse).


----------



## dgkula

Rozy63 said:


> I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a Lumagen for use with my CIH scope screen, NZ9, with a Shield Pro and Denon x4700h. I also am playing with a Vertex2 now, returnable till Jan.
> 
> I assume the Lumagen can do what the Vertex does and more, correct? The fewer items in my chain the better IMHO. I also have a Zidoo N9X and am on the fence regarding keeping that.
> 
> Any suggestions?


I had a vertex before I bought the lumagen. I used it to send codes to my jvc rs620 to select a static gamma curve based on max light hdr Metadata. Since the lumagen it is sitting in a box of extra audio gear collecting dust. What are you currently using the vertex for?


----------



## dankeff

Quick question for anyone with an epson LS12000. I have a new setup with an LS12000 and radiance pro 4242. Plan to get everything calibrated but waiting for new screen and walls to be painted before going to the effort.

In the meantime I’m just getting familiar with the 4242 and the projector.

I presume if I plan to calibrate a 3D LUT in the radiance pro and have radiance pro do the tone mapping I should turn dynamic contrast off on the projector?

lots of reviews talk about settings and their calibrations but none of them are using a radiance pro so hard to relate.

also, any opinions about the best picture mode to use? Again, I have seen one review claim “Natural” is best but wanted people’s thoughts given they aren’t using something like a radiance pro.

thanks


----------



## Rozy63

dgkula said:


> I had a vertex before I bought the lumagen. I used it to send codes to my jvc rs620 to select a static gamma curve based on max light hdr Metadata. Since the lumagen it is sitting in a box of extra audio gear collecting dust. What are you currently using the vertex for?


Currently I am using the Vertex to send LLDV to the pj, as well as trying other EDID settings. I assume i can do both and a lot more with the Lumagen?
The Zidoo is also probably going back. The poster wall/theater interface is no better than Emby/Jellyfin and the VS10 engine is overrated IMHO.


----------



## patcub

Can I ask someone to tell me in simple terms what LLDV does? Is there any advantage to having this in your system if you use the Lumagen to dynamically tone map HDR content and then send it to the projector in an SDR container? I'm assuming this would be used between your source and the Lumagen, does sending the LLDV data to the Lumagen add or improve anything? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Kris Deering

Lumagen doesn't support LLDV. LLDV was designed by Dolby to allow a player to do the Dolby tone mapping instead of the display (for displays that didn't support). It uses their tone mapping and is designed to be applied over a display that has a PQ based HDR picture mode. Lumagen does the same thing but applies it over a 2.4 gamma. I would not recommend ANYONE with a Lumagen to use LLDV.


----------



## patcub

Kris Deering said:


> Lumagen doesn't support LLDV. LLDV was designed by Dolby to allow a player to do the Dolby tone mapping instead of the display (for displays that didn't support). It uses their tone mapping and is designed to be applied over a display that has a PQ based HDR picture mode. Lumagen does the same thing but applies it over a 2.4 gamma. I would not recommend ANYONE with a Lumagen to use LLDV.


Thanks Kris!


----------



## DigitalAV

dankeff said:


> Quick question for anyone with an epson LS12000. I have a new setup with an LS12000 and radiance pro 4242. Plan to get everything calibrated but waiting for new screen and walls to be painted before going to the effort.
> 
> In the meantime I’m just getting familiar with the 4242 and the projector.
> 
> I presume if I plan to calibrate a 3D LUT in the radiance pro and have radiance pro do the tone mapping I should turn dynamic contrast off on the projector?
> 
> lots of reviews talk about settings and their calibrations but none of them are using a radiance pro so hard to relate.
> 
> also, any opinions about the best picture mode to use? Again, I have seen one review claim “Natural” is best but wanted people’s thoughts given they aren’t using something like a radiance pro.
> 
> thanks


The professionals will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when planning a 3D LUT you'd want to go with the picture mode that has the brightest calibrated 100% IRE white point.

With the LS12000 it'll probably be either Bright Cinema or Natural (or maybe even Dynamic if 100% IRE white point can calibrate with low delta E).

When calibrating, indeed turn dynamic contrast off. Once you're done, you can turn it on & see how you like it. (Note- the dynamic contrast laser dimming algorithm will be different between picture modes; e.g. Natural will be less aggressive than Dynamic)


----------



## bobof

Rozy63 said:


> Currently I am using the Vertex to send LLDV to the pj, as well as trying other EDID settings. I assume i can do both and a lot more with the Lumagen?
> The Zidoo is also probably going back. The poster wall/theater interface is no better than Emby/Jellyfin and the VS10 engine is overrated IMHO.


The Lumagen won't create any EDIDs with the LLDV bits in them, so you won't be able to do that without the HDFury. I don't think you need / want to, but that is something you won't be able to do without it.

Edit: I see Kris beat me to it. the only other thing of note is that some people use the HDfury device as a mini-control system for the JVC projector, sending commands to change user modes based on certain input conditions. That is functionality the Lumagen doesn't have - it can report formats over serial, and it can toggle the HDR flag on the HDMI which allows for limited mode changing in the projector, but it won't control the projector directly. I implemented this myself in a script running in a Raspberry Pi which watches the status updates from the Lumagen and then controls the JVC projector (and other parts of my system) over IP.

But if you don't use that functionality at the moment clearly it doesn't matter.


----------



## ajbriones

dankeff said:


> Quick question for anyone with an epson LS12000. I have a new setup with an LS12000 and radiance pro 4242. Plan to get everything calibrated but waiting for new screen and walls to be painted before going to the effort.
> 
> In the meantime I’m just getting familiar with the 4242 and the projector.
> 
> I presume if I plan to calibrate a 3D LUT in the radiance pro and have radiance pro do the tone mapping I should turn dynamic contrast off on the projector?
> 
> lots of reviews talk about settings and their calibrations but none of them are using a radiance pro so hard to relate.
> 
> also, any opinions about the best picture mode to use? Again, I have seen one review claim “Natural” is best but wanted people’s thoughts given they aren’t using something like a radiance pro.
> 
> thanks


I’m currently using Dynamic, but I’m still waiting on some room treatment so I haven’t had it calibrated yet. That said, loving Dynamic mode with my 4242.


----------



## ajbriones

Rozy63 said:


> Currently I am using the Vertex to send LLDV to the pj, as well as trying other EDID settings. I assume i can do both and a lot more with the Lumagen?
> The Zidoo is also probably going back. The poster wall/theater interface is no better than Emby/Jellyfin and the VS10 engine is overrated IMHO.


I got an HDVertex Fury and a Zidoo and yeah, both are in a drawer, unused. Hate the Zidoo interface and I already have a Plex server so it made no sense to curate two separate libraries.


----------



## Naiera

Gotta say I like the one on the Z1000, but I believe they're not the same?


----------



## ajbriones

Naiera said:


> Gotta say I like the one on the Z1000, but I believe they're not the same?


Not sure if they're the same. My reasons for not liking the interface are kinda specific though. I've maintained a plex server for years, so it didn't make sense to re-scrape all that data and maintain different databases. I also really dislike the navigation vs. Plex HTPC.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

bobof said:


> The Lumagen won't create any EDIDs with the LLDV bits in them, so you won't be able to do that without the HDFury. I don't think you need / want to, but that is something you won't be able to do without it.


I thought I would weigh in here too since I have been using a DIVA to spoof the DV block and force LLDV to the Lumagen for quite awhile. I try to keep an open mind and I do trust Kris who was pretty clear with me when he was here that a tone map on a tone map is a bad idea. Welp, last night I spent a couple hours changing the ATV4k from outputing DV 4k23.9 vs. HDR 4k23.9. The DV block is definitely over-saturating the reds and greens, so there is more to the transformation than compressing highlights; it appear to be a color coordinate shift takes place as well. The menu items almost glow neon colors. While I attributed this to overzealous color grading for the apps like Netflix in order to pop more on people's new OLEDs, I think it is obvious that the transformations that Dolby is using don't look natural when processed through the DTM by the LRP. The kicker for me was going into my photos which import through iCloud and looking at my own pictures of things that I know, like kitchen which has a large oil paiting in reds, yellow and blue and other items in my home. I am going to remove the DIVA from the system now and just use 4k23.9 HDR output from the ATV from now on. TIL not to question the guys who do this every day for a living. 😁😬


----------



## by96

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I thought I would weigh in here too since I have been using a DIVA to spoof the DV block and force LLDV to the Lumagen for quite awhile. I try to keep an open mind and I do trust Kris who was pretty clear with me when he was here that a tone map on a tone map is a bad idea. Welp, last night I spent a couple hours changing the ATV4k from outputing DV 4k23.9 vs. HDR 4k23.9. The DV block is definitely over-saturating the reds and greens, so there is more to the transformation than compressing highlights; it appear to be a color coordinate shift takes place as well. The menu items almost glow neon colors. While I attributed this to overzealous color grading for the apps like Netflix in order to pop more on people's new OLEDs, I think it is obvious that the transformations that Dolby is using don't look natural when processed through the DTM by the LRP. The kicker for me was going into my photos which import through iCloud and looking at my own pictures of things that I know, like kitchen which has a large oil paiting in reds, yellow and blue and other items in my home. I am going to remove the DIVA from the system now and just use 4k23.9 HDR output from the ATV from now on. TIL not to question the guys who do this every day for a living. 😁😬


I used the HDFury/LLDV method prior to getting an LRP and have toyed with trying it again with the LRP. Thank you for saving me the time and money. I will just stick with the LRP.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Help! Need the brains trust to help troubleshoot my setup. Suspect the issue is my Lumagen, just not sure why. 

Two things changed recently, firstly installed new projector (Sony XW7000) and second had the display/Lumagen (5244) calibrated, so LRP is using 21 point gamma and 3DLUT (17x171x17). All seemed good but did start to notice banding in darker parts of content, gradients not as smooth as I would have thought, etc. so couldn't help think something was off.

Fast forward to a few nights ago, and we're watching Pretty Woman (don't judge me!) and I couldn't believe how bad the image looked. It just looked noisy, blocky and just 'off'. Anyway, I committed to testing this against a few different sources and configurations to make sure I wasn't going mad. Originally I thought it may be the HDMI cable between the LRP and projector, but after some testing it looks as thought something has gone sideways with the LRP.

Source BDMV from Blu-Ray disc. (Note also tested directly from disc using UB9000). Excuse the poor screenshots but you'll get the idea.


First image is using a laptop to stream the file using a short HDMI cable directly to projector. This eliminated the LRP, long cable run and original source device.
Second image is using a Zidoo Z1000PRO via the original 10M HDMI into the projector. This eliminated the LRP and confirmed HDMI was good.
Third image includes the LRP back in the chain. As you can see, there is a significant amount of noise? introduced. This is very noticeable along their arms and back and some of the skin tone transitions are almost yellow/green. (the Mrs described it as 'looks like they have pollen on their arms!') The second shot of Richard you'll see this along his cheeks and neck.










I then decided to toggle some of the LRP settings to try and drill down on the issue. Interestingly, when toggling Color Gamut back on, the image turns purple (suspect settings are lost?) and only recover after restarting the unit.










Not great shots but as another example, these images from Alita (4K) attempting to show the noise/banding/color shift in these areas (not sure how to articulate this). The difference IRL is very obvious. Note there is no lose of highlight details in the last two images, just bad photos.










I'm confident I've ruled out any source devices and I do plan to factory reset the Lumagen over the weekend and see what result I get, but what are peoples initial thoughts? Is it HDMI? LRP settings? If so, what specifically (gamma, LUT, etc), LRP firmware (currently using Beta 110322)?


----------



## avdvplus

xPLAYRZx said:


> Help! Need the brains trust to help troubleshoot my setup. Suspect the issue is my Lumagen, just not sure why.
> 
> Two things changed recently, firstly installed new projector (Sony XW7000) and second had the display/Lumagen (5244) calibrated, so LRP is using 21 point gamma and 3DLUT (17x171x17). All seemed good but did start to notice banding in darker parts of content, gradients not as smooth as I would have thought, etc. so couldn't help think something was off.
> 
> Fast forward to a few nights ago, and we're watching Pretty Woman (don't judge me!) and I couldn't believe how bad the image looked. It just looked noisy, blocky and just 'off'. Anyway, I committed to testing this against a few different sources and configurations to make sure I wasn't going mad. Originally I thought it may be the HDMI cable between the LRP and projector, but after some testing it looks as thought something has gone sideways with the LRP.
> 
> Source BDMV from Blu-Ray disc. (Note also tested directly from disc using UB9000). Excuse the poor screenshots but you'll get the idea.
> 
> 
> First image is using a laptop to stream the file using a short HDMI cable directly to projector. This eliminated the LRP, long cable run and original source device.
> Second image is using a Zidoo Z1000PRO via the original 10M HDMI into the projector. This eliminated the LRP and confirmed HDMI was good.
> Third image includes the LRP back in the chain. As you can see, there is a significant amount of noise? introduced. This is very noticeable along their arms and back and some of the skin tone transitions are almost yellow/green. (the Mrs described it as 'looks like they have pollen on their arms!') The second shot of Richard you'll see this along his cheeks and neck.
> 
> View attachment 3373414
> 
> 
> I then decided to toggle some of the LRP settings to try and drill down on the issue. Interestingly, when toggling Color Gamut back on, the image turns purple (suspect settings are lost?) and only recover after restarting the unit.
> 
> View attachment 3373433
> 
> 
> Not great shots but as another example, these images from Alita (4K) attempting to show the noise/banding/color shift in these areas (not sure how to articulate this). The difference IRL is very obvious. Note there is no lose of highlight details in the last two images, just bad photos.
> 
> View attachment 3373451
> 
> 
> I'm confident I've ruled out any source devices and I do plan to factory reset the Lumagen over the weekend and see what result I get, but what are peoples initial thoughts? Is it HDMI? LRP settings? If so, what specifically (gamma, LUT, etc), LRP firmware (currently using Beta 110322)?


I had a similar problem and it was due to the calibration software used to create the LUTs. Instead of doing a full factory reset take steps on going back to default to see what is creating the problem. I would first make a configuration backup to be able to recover if desired and then start by just deleting the 3D LUT to see if it clears the problem if not then clear the 1D LUT to see if the problem is resolved. If not then see what other settings were change in LRP and return them back to default one at a time so you can uncover the culprit of the problem.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

avdvplus said:


> I had a similar problem and it was due to the calibration software used to create the LUTs.


That's really helpful, thankyou. How did you end up resolving your issue? What was your final solution?


----------



## desray2k

xPLAYRZx said:


> Help! Need the brains trust to help troubleshoot my setup. Suspect the issue is my Lumagen, just not sure why.
> 
> Source BDMV from Blu-Ray disc. (Note also tested directly from disc using UB9000). Excuse the poor screenshots but you'll get the idea.
> 
> 
> First image is using a laptop to stream the file using a short HDMI cable directly to projector. This eliminated the LRP, long cable run and original source device.
> Second image is using a Zidoo Z1000PRO via the original 10M HDMI into the projector. This eliminated the LRP and confirmed HDMI was good.
> Third image includes the LRP back in the chain. As you can see, there is a significant amount of noise? introduced. This is very noticeable along their arms and back and some of the skin tone transitions are almost yellow/green. (the Mrs described it as 'looks like they have pollen on their arms!') The second shot of Richard you'll see this along his cheeks and neck.
> 
> View attachment 3373414
> 
> 
> I then decided to toggle some of the LRP settings to try and drill down on the issue. Interestingly, when toggling Color Gamut back on, the image turns purple (suspect settings are lost?) and only recover after restarting the unit.
> 
> View attachment 3373433
> 
> 
> Not great shots but as another example, these images from Alita (4K) attempting to show the noise/banding/color shift in these areas (not sure how to articulate this). The difference IRL is very obvious. Note there is no lose of highlight details in the last two images, just bad photos.
> 
> View attachment 3373451
> 
> 
> I'm confident I've ruled out any source devices and I do plan to factory reset the Lumagen over the weekend and see what result I get, but what are peoples initial thoughts? Is it HDMI? LRP settings? If so, what specifically (gamma, LUT, etc), LRP firmware (currently using Beta 110322)?


Are you using Chromapure by any chance? Anyway, confirmed this is due to your 3D LUT calibration not being done properly. You can easily confirm this by resetting the all cms settings on your LRP but don't save the settings...and you will see all those macro-blocking stuff will disappear.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Just tried resetting CMS settings with another quick test using Alita again.... this looks to have reduced/eliminated the issue. I will do some further testing over the weekend to confirm. Calibration was done using CalMan (latest version I believe) by a very reputable ISF calibrator. Disappointing to find this is the cause.

Can this be remedied? Is this a know issue with particular software or compatibility issue with LRP? Assuming I will need to reach out to my calibrator and have them redo this or are there alternative to correct this?


----------



## desray2k

xPLAYRZx said:


> Calibration was done using CalMan (latest version I believe) by a very reputable ISF calibrator. Disappointing to find this is the cause.
> 
> Can this be remedied? Is this a know issue with particular software or compatibility issue with LRP? Assuming I will need to reach out to my calibrator and have them redo this or are there alternative to correct this?


You paid the guy for his service...show him the image quality and he will need to fix it. Just wondering, how can a reputable ISF calibrator not showcase any clips for the before and after calibration settings. This issue probably won't surface when playback SDR (BT 709) content, it only manifested itself with HDR source for most Sony 4K laser projectors out there.


----------



## alv

Anyone have experience with Tablo OTA DVRs? Or any non-computer based product that has an ATSC3 tuner and DVR. Seems like people have announced but not shipped such devices.


----------



## Kris Deering

xPLAYRZx said:


> Help! Need the brains trust to help troubleshoot my setup. Suspect the issue is my Lumagen, just not sure why.
> 
> Two things changed recently, firstly installed new projector (Sony XW7000) and second had the display/Lumagen (5244) calibrated, so LRP is using 21 point gamma and 3DLUT (17x171x17). All seemed good but did start to notice banding in darker parts of content, gradients not as smooth as I would have thought, etc. so couldn't help think something was off.
> 
> Fast forward to a few nights ago, and we're watching Pretty Woman (don't judge me!) and I couldn't believe how bad the image looked. It just looked noisy, blocky and just 'off'. Anyway, I committed to testing this against a few different sources and configurations to make sure I wasn't going mad. Originally I thought it may be the HDMI cable between the LRP and projector, but after some testing it looks as thought something has gone sideways with the LRP.
> 
> Source BDMV from Blu-Ray disc. (Note also tested directly from disc using UB9000). Excuse the poor screenshots but you'll get the idea.
> 
> 
> First image is using a laptop to stream the file using a short HDMI cable directly to projector. This eliminated the LRP, long cable run and original source device.
> Second image is using a Zidoo Z1000PRO via the original 10M HDMI into the projector. This eliminated the LRP and confirmed HDMI was good.
> Third image includes the LRP back in the chain. As you can see, there is a significant amount of noise? introduced. This is very noticeable along their arms and back and some of the skin tone transitions are almost yellow/green. (the Mrs described it as 'looks like they have pollen on their arms!') The second shot of Richard you'll see this along his cheeks and neck.
> 
> View attachment 3373414
> 
> 
> I then decided to toggle some of the LRP settings to try and drill down on the issue. Interestingly, when toggling Color Gamut back on, the image turns purple (suspect settings are lost?) and only recover after restarting the unit.
> 
> View attachment 3373433
> 
> 
> Not great shots but as another example, these images from Alita (4K) attempting to show the noise/banding/color shift in these areas (not sure how to articulate this). The difference IRL is very obvious. Note there is no lose of highlight details in the last two images, just bad photos.
> 
> View attachment 3373451
> 
> 
> I'm confident I've ruled out any source devices and I do plan to factory reset the Lumagen over the weekend and see what result I get, but what are peoples initial thoughts? Is it HDMI? LRP settings? If so, what specifically (gamma, LUT, etc), LRP firmware (currently using Beta 110322)?


When someone says they've done a 3D LUT on a Sony it immediately raises flags for me. Was the LUT only done for REC709? What software was used?


----------



## Kris Deering

Oh and reputable ISF calibrator doesn't really mean anything. If you've ever been to an ISF class you'd know that "ISF Certified" really doesn't mean what it used to.


----------



## avdvplus

xPLAYRZx said:


> That's really helpful, thankyou. How did you end up resolving your issue? What was your final solution?


I ended up using another software that did a better job for LUTs. I have high respect for the professional calibrators that do a good job but I enjoy doing the calibration myself and have used Calman, HCFR, ChromaPure, and ColourSpace (Light Illusion). I my opinion there is no Calibration Software that is best for everything and each one have Pros and Cons. There are software that do a great job for manual calibration but not as good for LUTs and other that do a great job in LUTs but not as good for manual calibration, etc.... Since you had a Professional do your calibration you should go back and ask for a redo to fix the problem.


----------



## bearcat2002

Send the thing to Kris and have him do your calibration. You won't regret it as it will never be better.


----------



## sjschaff

alv said:


> Anyone have experience with Tablo OTA DVRs? Or any non-computer based product that has an ATSC3 tuner and DVR. Seems like people have announced but not shipped such devices.


Tried Tablo earlier this year but not impressed with its performance. Since then I've been happily using an HDHomeRun Plex 4K with ATSC 3.0 tuners. However, where I live no stations participate as yet. But at least the hardware is solid. As an aside, I run the Channels DVR server on a Synology while the client is running on an Nvidia Shield Pro (separating these functions prevents recording failures).


----------



## avdvplus

bearcat2002 said:


> Send the thing to Kris and have him do your calibration. You won't regret it as it will never be better.


I have heard about people sending the Lumagen and/or projector for calibration but I wonder how can this calibration be done since the professional calibrator would have to have the exact same screen type (size, gain, color, etc...) and room size dimensions including room lighting which would be highly unlikely? Is there some math model people are using to do calibration on a different place than were the device(s) will be used? Or those variations are just accepted as ok? Or more likely the professional calibrator will still go to the place to do the final calibration - but then I wondered why send the device(s) to the calibrator in the first place and spend the money and risk shipping damage?


----------



## Craig Peer

avdvplus said:


> I have heard about people sending the Lumagen and/or projector for calibration but I wonder how can this calibration be done since the professional calibrator would have to have the exact same screen type (size, gain, color, etc...) and room size dimensions including room lighting which would be highly unlikely? Is there some math model people are using to do calibration on a different place than were the device(s) will be used? Or those variations are just accepted as ok? Or more likely the professional calibrator will still go to the place to do the final calibration - but then I wondered why send the device(s) to the calibrator in the first place and spend the money and risk shipping damage?


He just needs to know the screen size, material, throw distance etc. A full size screen isn't needed - just a sample of each screen material large enough for a meter to read off of. But, ask Kris himself - Video Calibration | Deep Dive AV | United States 

I'm having my new projector sent to him for a calibration - just FYI.


----------



## YesAnotherTweet

Craig Peer said:


> I'm having my new projector sent to him for a calibration - just FYI.


Do tell, whatcha getting?


----------



## Craig Peer

YesAnotherTweet said:


> Do tell, whatcha getting?


An RS4100.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Kris Deering said:


> When someone says they've done a 3D LUT on a Sony it immediately raises flags for me. Was the LUT only done for REC709? What software was used?


Software used was Calman. I believe it was only done for REC2020 as everything is configured to output as SDR2020, even 709 material.

Do you have any insights (or theories) into why or what causes the issues with the LUT? Is it the software doing/not doing something that cause issues? What part of the calibration process is being impacted here?


----------



## xPLAYRZx

bearcat2002 said:


> Send the thing to Kris and have him do your calibration. You won't regret it as it will never be better.


Unfortunately not practical.. I'm on the other side of the world.


----------



## desray2k

xPLAYRZx said:


> Software used was Calman. I believe it was only done for REC2020 as everything is configured to output as SDR2020, even 709 material.
> 
> Do you have any insights (or theories) into why or what causes the issues with the LUT? Is it the software doing/not doing something that cause issues? What part of the calibration process is being impacted here?


When it comes to calibration, the most important settings are all interconnected - e.g. changes made to the white levels (RGB) will affect the grayscale and the gamma must be set correctly to track closely to the desired gamma value (Lumagen recommended 2.4) in which I have a feeling is where the problem lies. Lastly the CMS (RGBCMY+HSL). My advice, since you already paid the guy, get back to him to do another round of calibration.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> The test release Kris has was not a Beta candidate, but Patrick wanted to get Kris to test some of the improvements while working on a couple more bug fixes. Once the bug fixes are complete, Pat will work on a full-speed synthesis.
> 
> We do not have a schedule but I am hoping we will have the next Beta release in the next week or so.
> 
> Once the next Beta is out, we should be able to work on the DTM desaturation improvements.


Jim, are we still on track to see a new beta firmware release that seeks to improve the instant aspect ratio that you mentioned last week?


----------



## DigitalAV

desray2k said:


> When it comes to calibration, the most important settings are all interconnected - e.g. changes made to the white levels (RGB) will affect the grayscale and the gamma must be set correctly to track closely to the desired gamma value (Lumagen recommended 2.4) in which I have a feeling is where the problem lies. Lastly the CMS (RGBCMY+HSL). My advice, since you already paid the guy, get back to him to do another round of calibration.


I don't understand at all what you're saying here. What exactly are you thinking is the problem? You think Calman was set to target a different gamma? Why exactly would that cause posterization like in his screenshots?

You're right that the bottom line is to have the guy you paid fix it.


----------



## desray2k

DigitalAV said:


> I don't understand at all what you're saying here. What exactly are you thinking is the problem? You think Calman was set to target a different gamma? Why exactly would that cause posterization like in his screenshots?


I'm based on my experience using Chromapure here...For Chromapure, the gamma is the hardest thing to get it right. It caused the posterization I've seen but I managed to resolve it after selecting a different gamma value on my Sony VW995ES. The gamma value in the projector may show 2.4 but when measured, it may not be the case. Of course, there are other settings that may cause it. Like I said, get the professional ISF calibrator to re-do it.


----------



## DigitalAV

desray2k said:


> I'm based on my experience using Chromapure here...For Chromapure, the gamma is the hardest thing to get it right. It caused the posterization I've seen but I managed to resolve it after selecting a different gamma value on my Sony VW995ES. The gamma value in the projector may show 2.4 but when measured, it may not be the case. Of course, there are other settings that may cause it. Like I said, get the professional ISF calibrator to re-do it.


Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. Really disappointing to hear since Chromapure touts their Lumagen autocal as being super easy and accurate


----------



## xPLAYRZx

Update on this one, I think we have found the culprit. I contacted my calibrator to review some of the setting and confirm details regarding the LUT. 

So turns out the LUT was done for 709, not 2020, but output on both CMS0 and CMS1 were set to SDR2020. Changing the output to SDR709 looks to have fixed it. I'll review some more content over the weekend and follow up with my calibrator again next week.










Many thanks to @avdvplus @desray2k and @Kris Deering for your input and thoughts on this. It really helped point me in the right direction. Cheers.


----------



## desray2k

xPLAYRZx said:


> Update on this one, I think we have found the culprit. I contacted my calibrator to review some of the setting and confirm details regarding the LUT.
> 
> So turns out the LUT was done for 709, not 2020, but output on both CMS0 and CMS1 were set to SDR2020. Changing the output to SDR709 looks to have fixed it. I'll review some more content over the weekend and follow up with my calibrator again next week.
> 
> Many thanks to @avdvplus @desray2k and @Kris Deering for your input and thoughts on this. It really helped point me in the right direction. Cheers.


Everything about BT 709 is easy to calibrate to get accurate results regardless of which calibration s/w one is using. Just curious, did he use BT 709 or BT 2020 to calibrate for CMS 1?


----------



## riddle

I am not sure, but I think Calman has some problem with 3DLUT calibration in BT.2020 with Lumagen. Or am I wrong?


----------



## Naiera

As I was told before in this thread, Calman does not support BT.2020 calibration via Lumagen. Yet? You'll get some very, very off readings after calibration is, ostensibly, done.


----------



## SJHT

Craig Peer said:


> He just needs to know the screen size, material, throw distance etc. A full size screen isn't needed - just a sample of each screen material large enough for a meter to read off of. But, ask Kris himself - Video Calibration | Deep Dive AV | United States
> 
> I'm having my new projector sent to him for a calibration - just FYI.


My dealer sent mine directly to Kris. He calibrated using my screen material, size, distance, etc. He asked for any preferences (e.g. Nit for SDR/HDR). I also have a Lumagen Pro. He shipped mine to me within just a few days after receiving. Emailed me the detailed calibration reports and my updated Lumagen file. 4100 looks great. Highly recommend this process!


----------



## bjorg

SJHT said:


> My dealer sent mine directly to Kris. He calibrated using my screen material, size, distance, etc. He asked for any preferences (e.g. Nit for SDR/HDR). I also have a Lumagen Pro. He shipped mine to me within just a few days after receiving. Emailed me the detailed calibration reports and my updated Lumagen file. 4100 looks great. Highly recommend this process!


Could this have been done just by exchanging the backup file instead of the entire unit?


----------



## Kris Deering

xPLAYRZx said:


> Software used was Calman. I believe it was only done for REC2020 as everything is configured to output as SDR2020, even 709 material.
> 
> Do you have any insights (or theories) into why or what causes the issues with the LUT? Is it the software doing/not doing something that cause issues? What part of the calibration process is being impacted here?


CalMan can’t do 3D LUTs for gamuts the projector isn’t capable of. This is something the calibrator should have known and is the reason it looks bad afterwards. It will only make things worse. So many people don’t understand LUTs, when to use them and the problems they may cause. Then again, most calibrators have a pretty weak grasp on image science in general in my experience.


----------



## Kris Deering

bjorg said:


> Could this have been done just by exchanging the backup file instead of the entire unit?


He didn’t send his Lumagen, only the projector. I used my test Lumagen in lieu of his. I do calibrations remotely in my lab all the time for clients. I’ve also validated the results on site several times for clients once they installed in their room and the results match exactly.


----------



## Mike_WI

Craig Peer said:


> He just needs to know the screen size, material, throw distance etc. A full size screen isn't needed - just a sample of each screen material large enough for a meter to read off of. But, ask Kris himself - Video Calibration | Deep Dive AV | United States
> 
> I'm having my new projector sent to him for a calibration - just FYI.


This is interesting. I recall people paying extra (from AVS???) for calibration pre-shipping, but I thought suboptimal w/o screen and room but didn't think of patches of screen to test.
I suspect there is still benefit of calibrating in situ, but likely useful -- especially if ordering from the calibrator.


----------



## avdvplus

Kris Deering said:


> He didn’t send his Lumagen, only the projector. I used my test Lumagen in lieu of his. I do calibrations remotely in my lab all the time for clients. I’ve also validated the results on site several times for clients once they installed in their room and the results match exactly.


Kris, from the previous posts that was my understanding (i.e., sending the projector) given that from my personal experience there are variations on the same model projector output so you should use the actual projector for calibration. It is interesting to learn that the Lumagen Pro itself does not have calibration variations from the same model (assuming there would be differences from the 4XXX series to the 5XXX series). Given the discussions on the variations for each FPGA units itself, I thought that would also create some calibration differences. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

When I got mine calibrated we set the output to Rec.709 as that’s all the projector could do justice to. JVC X5900. 

Looks awesome


----------



## bobof

Most projectors do have some significant amount of native gamut coverage in excess of REC709 though, so it's a shame not to calibrate to suit just because the calibration software you're using can't do it well, when there is SW out there that can. An X5900 does have some useful gamut in excess of REC709 that you could use.

In watching WCG content on a display with sub-REC2020 or sub-P3 gamut, you're going to have to map the gamut somehow, there's no getting away from it. You might as well map it to the largest gamut that the display is capable of, not the (somewhat arbitrarily small) REC709 gamut.


----------



## desray2k

Kris Deering said:


> I’ve also validated the results on site several times for clients once they installed in their room and the results match exactly.


Now that's what I called professional. Thumbs up Kris.


----------



## Kris Deering

bobof said:


> Most projectors do have some significant amount of native gamut coverage in excess of REC709 though, so it's a shame not to calibrate to suit just because the calibration software you're using can't do it well, when there is SW out there that can. An X5900 does have some useful gamut in excess of REC709 that you could use.
> 
> In watching WCG content on a display with sub-REC2020 or sub-P3 gamut, you're going to have to map the gamut somehow, there's no getting away from it. You might as well map it to the largest gamut that the display is capable of, not the (somewhat arbitrarily small) REC709 gamut.


Of course you can still calibrate those gamuts, but you may not need a LUT to do that. A LUT is a tool that is useful for displays that need them, but not every display does. Some other software options also work for LUT building with displays that don’t reach target gamut. More often than not though, I find that JVC and Sony projectors rarely if ever need a LUT for 2020.


----------



## bjorg

Kris Deering said:


> He didn’t send his Lumagen, only the projector. I used my test Lumagen in lieu of his. I do calibrations remotely in my lab all the time for clients. I’ve also validated the results on site several times for clients once they installed in their room and the results match exactly.


Oops. I misunderstood. That make more sense actually. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## xPLAYRZx

desray2k said:


> Just curious, did he use BT 709 or BT 2020 to calibrate for CMS 1?


I believe BT 709, will confirm next week.



Kris Deering said:


> More often than not though, I find that JVC and Sony projectors rarely if ever need a LUT for 2020.


What would you consider best practice when setting these projectors up with the Lumagen then? Specifically when/where to use LUTs.


----------



## Geof

avdvplus said:


> I have heard about people sending the Lumagen and/or projector for calibration but I wonder how can this calibration be done since the professional calibrator would have to have the exact same screen type (size, gain, color, etc...) and room size dimensions including room lighting which would be highly unlikely? Is there some math model people are using to do calibration on a different place than were the device(s) will be used? Or those variations are just accepted as ok? Or more likely the professional calibrator will still go to the place to do the final calibration - but then I wondered why send the device(s) to the calibrator in the first place and spend the money and risk shipping damage?


I had my RS3100 sent to Kris and he calibrated it using his Lumagen. Afterwards he sent the Projector to me and emailed the Lumagen file to load in my unit. The whole process was seamless and the results wonderful. I highly recommend Kris and would do this again without question.


----------



## bearcat2002

Geof said:


> I had my RS3100 sent to Kris and he calibrated it using his Lumagen. Afterwards he sent the Projector to me and emailed the Lumagen file to load in my unit. The whole process was seamless and the results wonderful. I highly recommend Kris and would do this again without question.


I did this as well and picture is absolutely perfect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Quick question,

im just going through setting up lumagen from scratch for new projector. Calibrating the optical white, do I make it look like the image in the training document? Where I adjust the pattern so the 96% looks grey?
calibrating black was clear enough in the manual. White not so to me 😆


----------



## Craig Peer

jrp said:


> The test release Kris has was not a Beta candidate, but Patrick wanted to get Kris to test some of the improvements while working on a couple more bug fixes. Once the bug fixes are complete, Pat will work on a full-speed synthesis.
> 
> We do not have a schedule but I am hoping we will have the next Beta release in the next week or so.
> 
> Once the next Beta is out, *we should be able to work on the DTM desaturation improvements.*


Hi Jim. How is this coming along? Xmas gift to us, or a New Years / welcome to 2023 gift? Thanks.


----------



## jrp

Craig Peer said:


> Hi Jim. How is this coming along? Xmas gift to us, or a New Years / welcome to 2023 gift? Thanks.


It is taking longer to address the reported instant auto aspect cases. Patrick is close to a new release to improve the difficult instant auto aspect cases. However, this work has delayed Pat getting going on desaturation. So, my hope for at least a test release for desaturation by Christmas is not happening.

I believe that once we post the next auto-aspect Beta, Patrick can get working on desaturation. How long after that he has at least a test release for me is an unknown at this point.


----------



## MDesigns

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I thought I would weigh in here too since I have been using a DIVA to spoof the DV block and force LLDV to the Lumagen for quite awhile. I try to keep an open mind and I do trust Kris who was pretty clear with me when he was here that a tone map on a tone map is a bad idea. Welp, last night I spent a couple hours changing the ATV4k from outputing DV 4k23.9 vs. HDR 4k23.9. The DV block is definitely over-saturating the reds and greens, so there is more to the transformation than compressing highlights; it appear to be a color coordinate shift takes place as well. The menu items almost glow neon colors. While I attributed this to overzealous color grading for the apps like Netflix in order to pop more on people's new OLEDs, I think it is obvious that the transformations that Dolby is using don't look natural when processed through the DTM by the LRP. The kicker for me was going into my photos which import through iCloud and looking at my own pictures of things that I know, like kitchen which has a large oil paiting in reds, yellow and blue and other items in my home. I am going to remove the DIVA from the system now and just use 4k23.9 HDR output from the ATV from now on. TIL not to question the guys who do this every day for a living. 😁😬


Were you using the correct DV EDID targeting BT2020 colors? Easy way to get oversaturation with LLDV is to use the generic Sony LLDV EDID(it's more like DCI-P3) and then BT2020 profile in the projector.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

I was; I set the DV block up for 10,000 nits to ensure a full bandwidth for LRP to process and have the HDR set to EOTF 2084, P3 primaries; these were the setting that were originally recommended and they do seem to be correct. But I discovered that I had an incorrect gamma setting in my projector from trying to compensate for a dark HDR image before I had the LRP, once I changed it to default, 0 it looked correct I spent a good amount of time again last night exploring a few projector settings and went back to sending LLDV to the LRP and I am sticking with it for now. I don't actually see a lot of difference now between HDR10 and LLDV, but I do think it expands the color volume a bit in the BT2020 space, which is as I understand it, one of the things the DV metadata records intrascene during encoding. Since Lumagen doesn't and won't natively support LLDV or DV for licensing reasons, etc., I do not ecpect any love here for using LLDV into an LRP, but as I previously stated, I try to keep an open mind and since I can experiment with it, I will continue to. At this point, it appears to be doing no harm and it is hard to argue with how great the image looks with good content, including my own photos. YMMV.


----------



## bobof

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> I was; I set the DV block up for 10,000 nits to ensure a full bandwidth for LRP to process and have the HDR set to EOTF 2084, P3 primaries;


I'd imagine that to be incorrect as the LRP doesn't have any input modes I believe that expect to be aligned to P3 primaries, which I think is what you'd get if you did as you mention.


----------



## MDesigns

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> *I was*; I set the DV block up for 10,000 nits to ensure a full bandwidth for LRP to process and have the HDR set to EOTF 2084, *P3 primaries*; these were the setting that were originally recommended and they do seem to be correct. But I discovered that I had an incorrect gamma setting in my projector from trying to compensate for a dark HDR image before I had the LRP, once I changed it to default, 0 it looked correct I spent a good amount of time again last night exploring a few projector settings and went back to sending LLDV to the LRP and I am sticking with it for now. I don't actually see a lot of difference now between HDR10 and LLDV, but I do think it expands the color volume a bit in the BT2020 space, which is as I understand it, one of the things the DV metadata records intrascene during encoding. Since Lumagen doesn't and won't natively support LLDV or DV for licensing reasons, etc., I do not ecpect any love here for using LLDV into an LRP, but as I previously stated, I try to keep an open mind and since I can experiment with it, I will continue to. At this point, it appears to be doing no harm and it is hard to argue with how great the image looks with good content, including my own photos. YMMV.


No, you wasn't using BT2020 target, you just wrote P3 primaries. That is exactly the way to get oversaturation when projectors and lumagen expects BT2020 with HDR.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

OK, I will adjust the color space later and do some peeping. Thank you both, gentlemen. Probably lays bare my stupidity, but it is all a learning process... I'm sure it will be twice as steep when I start dipping my toe into calibration... 😁


----------



## Anandbabu Rajaretnam

People, any reference for good Lumagen calibrator in Michigan, Detroit area?


----------



## bosler.bruce

Anandbabu Rajaretnam said:


> People, any reference for good Lumagen calibrator in Michigan, Detroit area?


Ken Whitcomb is based out of Indianapolis. Very happy with what he did for my system

Calibration inc


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Just a quick aside for clarification: I thought that HDR content (on disc and streamed) was p3 in a bt2020 container? Doesn't the LRP expect p3 primaries in content even though the color space is bt2020?


----------



## jrp

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Just a quick aside for clarification: I thought that HDR content (on disc and streamed) was p3 in a bt2020 container? Doesn't the LRP expect p3 primaries in content even though the color space is bt2020?


HDR content is always in Rec2020 container, no matter the original color Gamut.

Most movies and other shows have a color Gamut of P3 or less, but are still in a Rec 2020 container.

Normally calibration for HDR content is to Rec2020 points. If you know what you are doing you can choose to have the Pro convert the data to P3 and in that case you can calibrate to P3. However, this is the exception.


----------



## Dr. Niles Crane

Got it. It is the calibration of the display that governs as far as the primaries go. Looking at my reports it is clear than my display was calibrated for rec2020, not P3. How often do you recommend that a user change the colorspace to rec709, Jim? My rec709 calibration looks really tight and if I tonemap and change the colorspace for my HDR content I do seem to lose some actual color volume but how much is my imagination and how much is that the rec2020 cal isn't quite as tight and makes a few colors look more saturated than they really should be on the red end? More peeping to do here.


----------



## jrp

Dr. Niles Crane said:


> Got it. It is the calibration of the display that governs as far as the primaries go. Looking at my reports it is clear than my display was calibrated for rec2020, not P3. How often do you recommend that a user change the colorspace to rec709, Jim? My rec709 calibration looks really tight and if I tonemap and change the colorspace for my HDR content I do seem to lose some actual color volume but how much is my imagination and how much is that the rec2020 cal isn't quite as tight and makes a few colors look more saturated than they really should be on the red end? More peeping to do here.


We made SDR709 the default output color space _only_ because at the time a number of projectors failed to pay attention to the Rec 2020 flag and only paid attention to the HDR flag. Everything worked correctly with Rec709, but that is one of the things we recommend changing to SDR2020 as you do setup - then making sure the projector is in Rec 2020 mode either by seeing the Rec 2020 flag from the Radiance Pro or manually selecting it.

At this time only Colourspace can do a good job on a 3D LUT for Rec 2020, and then only if you know how to do an augmented 3D LUT. However, it is reported Calman can do a good job on a P3 3D LUT as long as the projector's color Gamut is near P3 or better. So, calibrators using Calman can calibrate to P3, including a 3D LUT.

Note that reports are both JVC and Sony projectors benefit from a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT in the Radiance Pro to achieve below 1.0 dE's for grayscale, but do not generally need a 3D LUT to have low enough dE's throughout the achievable Gamut range for the projector.


----------



## desray2k

jrp said:


> Note that reports are both JVC and Sony projectors benefit from a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT in the Radiance Pro to achieve below 1.0 dE's for grayscale, but do not generally need a 3D LUT to have low enough dE's throughout the achievable Gamut range for the projector.


Thanks for this piece of valuable info.


----------



## DVD MAN

jrp said:


> Note that reports are both JVC and Sony projectors benefit from a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT in the Radiance Pro to achieve below 1.0 DE's for grayscale, but do not generally need a 3D LUT to have low enough dE's throughout the achievable Gamut range for the projector.


I have had my Lumagen Pro and A JVC NX9 for a few years . I always calibrate both HDR and SDR with a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT and the DE's normally range between 1.0-1.3. I never adjust the Color Gamut on my JVC as both the Rec709 and REC.2020 profile on the JVC are fine.


----------



## DVD MAN

DVD MAN said:


> I have had my Lumagen Pro and A JVC NX9 for a few years . I always calibrate both HDR and SDR with a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT and the DE's normally range between 1.0-1.3. I have never adjust the Color Gamut on my JVC as both the Rec709 and REC.2020 profile on the JVC are fine.


----------



## arsenalfc89

DVD MAN said:


> I have had my Lumagen Pro and A JVC NX9 for a few years . I always calibrate both HDR and SDR with a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT and the DE's normally range between 1.0-1.3. I never adjust the Color Gamut on my JVC as both the Rec709 and REC.2020 profile on the JVC are fine.


I'm curious as to why some don't adjust the color gamut like Jim also said. Don't you want the lowest possible DE for all colors? Or is that not beneficial?


----------



## Kris Deering

Color is done in calibration. Even without a 3D LUT the dE’s after calibration are way below perceptual unless the projector itself can’t reach the target color at a certain saturation point.


----------



## 4GivingGuy

So in order to get the CMS settings correct with both CMS0 and CMS1, can someone please screenshot how the Lumagen settings look on a properly calibrated machine for SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1)?

For context: Just ran a 3D LUT calibration via CalMan last evening with the 709 gamut. Popped on this thread and see that perhaps I should have done the 3D LUT in Rec2020? The results in streaming SDR content were great, haven’t pushed HDR content through though.

My worry is that if not retargeted, both the Lumagen and the Sony 7000ES are not going to be optimally used if only going at the 709 space.

The crux: Another 3D LUT recalibration for 2020 or just a settings adjustment on both the Lumagen and Sony?

Added this screen grab chart I found helpful from ‘Film Resolved on YouTube’ to help understand some colorspace/gamut attributes.


----------



## graticular

When I got my Lumagen Pro I had B memories set up to prevent the Apple TV and Bluray player from doing the upscaling. In one of the menus I found an option to set either memory A or B as the default for each device. I am now wanting change from Memory B to A for the default memory on the bluray player, however now I cannot for the life of me find where in the menus to do this. A pointer would be gratefully appreciated.


----------



## Gregor

Just received my 4242 and very impressed with the ou5 of the box improvement with a Sony xw6000es. One question, should the radiance automatically go into standby mode when the system is shut down and all sources are off, or does the need to be sent as a separate command.


----------



## jrp

graticular said:


> When I got my Lumagen Pro I had B memories set up to prevent the Apple TV and Bluray player from doing the upscaling. In one of the menus I found an option to set either memory A or B as the default for each device. I am now wanting change from Memory B to A for the default memory on the bluray player, however now I cannot for the life of me find where in the menus to do this. A pointer would be gratefully appreciated.


Select MEM A while on that input and do a Save. Then when you turn on again MEM A should be selected.


----------



## jrp

Gregor said:


> Just received my 4242 and very impressed with the ou5 of the box improvement with a Sony xw6000es. One question, should the radiance automatically go into standby mode when the system is shut down and all sources are off, or does the need to be sent as a separate command.


You need to turn the Radiance Pro on manually, and put it into Standby manually, using the remote or a control system.


----------



## DVD MAN

arsenalfc89 said:


> I'm curious as to why some don't adjust the color gamut like Jim also said. Don't you want the lowest possible DE for all colors? Or is that not beneficial?


I don't adjust the Color Gamut because the results using the JVC color profile for 709 and 2020 are whiten an acceptable DE point. After I run 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT with the Lumagen I run my color checker on calman and the results are under 2DE's for color. I realize that the results can be better however I don't trust my Profile corrected I1 Display Pro meter for color calibration. If I decide that a full 3D Lut calibration is needed then I would hire a pro calibrator like Kris who has the proper meters and equipment to do the job.


----------



## graticular

jrp said:


> Select MEM A while on that input and do a Save. Then when you turn on again MEM A should be selected.


Perfect - Thanks Jim.


----------



## docrog

jrp said:


> You need to turn the Radiance Pro on manually, and put it into Standby manually, using the remote or a control system.


A third option is to power off (if using the trigger) when connected to an AVR whenever it shuts down.


----------



## stefanop

I've installed latest beta firmware and Auto Aspect is bizarre. If you play a movie first it sets correct aspect ratio, than if you exit movieand return to player interface the aspect stay fixed (it should auto aspect to 16x9). I press 16:9 on remote and then select another movie, with different resolution and frame rate. The aspect still remains to the latest selected.
In v4 Info (RS232) you can clearly see that Detected is correct but selected and raster are wrong.
Is there a new command to force AutoAspect? If there's a frame rate or frequency change it should start for itself.


----------



## xPLAYRZx

4GivingGuy said:


> So in order to get the CMS settings correct with both CMS0 and CMS1, can someone please screenshot how the Lumagen settings look on a properly calibrated machine for SDR (CMS0) and HDR (CMS1)?
> 
> For context: Just ran a 3D LUT calibration via CalMan last evening with the 709 gamut. Popped on this thread and see that perhaps I should have done the 3D LUT in Rec2020? The results in streaming SDR content were great, haven’t pushed HDR content through though.
> 
> My worry is that if not retargeted, both the Lumagen and the Sony 7000ES are not going to be optimally used if only going at the 709 space.
> 
> The crux: Another 3D LUT recalibration for 2020 or just a settings adjustment on both the Lumagen and Sony?
> 
> Added this screen grab chart I found helpful from ‘Film Resolved on YouTube’ to help understand some colorspace/gamut attributes.


I'm working through the same scenario too (Lumagen + Sony XW7000ES + CalMan calibration). Happy to post my final settings once I get there. Currently setup with a 1D LUT (greyscale) and a 3D LUT (REC709/2.4 gamma) configured. Here's what I've experienced -

*SDR709* - Using calibrated 21 point greyscale, colour gamut 709 (3D LUT) and colour space SDR709 the results are good as you mentioned, and as you'd expect.

*HDR2020 > SDR709* - Using the same 21 point greyscale, colour gamut 709 (3D LUT) and colour space to SDR709 the results aren't so good. This setup essentially presents everything to the display as SDR709. Aside from the smaller colour volume there is also noticeable blocking and banding in this configuration. I'll endeavor to post some examples of this over the next week or so.

*HDR2020 > SDR2020* - Using 21 point greyscale, colour gamut *disabled* (so only using white point) and colour space to SDR2020 the results are much better. This just utilises the 1D LUT for greyscale and presents the display with SDR2020. The display automatically switches to BT2020 and all of the blocking and banding visible when using the 3D LUT (709) is gone and colour volume is noticeably increased. 

Based on some previous comments in this thread, it seems current Sony and JVC projectors don't really benefit from a 3D LUT for 2020, these projectors handle this adequately OOTB? Also CalMan can't do 3D LUT for 2020 on Lumagen, at least that is my current understanding. From the results I have seen in my own testing, dialing in greyscale and then just sending SDR2020 to the Sony looks the best for HDR. I'm guessing there would be potential to further tweak the image by making changes to the Sony's BT2020 color space settings, like a hybrid/augmented calibration? (not sure if that's actually a thing or not.. lol)

Ultimately, I would also love to know what 'best practice' is when calibrating the Lumagen for REC2020 with a current Sony or JVC projector.


----------



## Sittler27

DVD MAN said:


> I don't adjust the Color Gamut because the results using the JVC color profile for 709 and 2020 are whiten an acceptable DE point. After I run 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT with the Lumagen I run my color checker on calman and the results are under 2DE's for color. I realize that the results can be better however I don't trust my Profile corrected I1 Display Pro meter for color calibration. If I decide that a full 3D Lut calibration is needed then I would hire a pro calibrator like Kris who has the proper meters and equipment to do the job.


So, just to be clear so I understand:

Currently in Colourspace for HDR CMS1 I load the LUT from a 13pt cube measure into the 1D+3D slot.
For SDR I also load a 1D LUT from an RGB measure, and then separately take a 13pt cube measure and load the LUT from that into the 3D slot on the CMS0 Lumagen.

Are we all now saying that I probably only need to perform for HDR (and then separately for SDR) a RGB measure and then load the resultant LUTs into the 1D slots in CMS0 and then CMS1?

Note that I run my JVC NZ9 in Profile Off/High Bright.


----------



## busybee2498

FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EDIT............................
Sorry if this has already been discussed

New user
Problem, I have my ATV-4k connected to receiver (Denon 4700h) then receiver connected to my lumegan out to projector (Sony wv5000) I get no picture
If i hook apple tv directly to lumegan out to projector it works fine

I want to route through receiver because I also have a 85” sony 4kTV behind my screen 
I just bought 2 new 12 meter cables, one of them that Jim recommended

before the Lumegan came in the mix I had this issue
So when my projector and TV hooked up to my av receiver using ATV and TV is off, I get a black screen, but if i turn the tv on while projector is on I get a picture on both screens and then works fine.
I just purchased a new receiver and this did this on my old receiver. I cannot remember when this started
maybe after a receiver firmware or when i bought a new TV

*____*
FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EDIT............................
Got it working!
EDID Problem when 2 display are hooked up to AV Receiver 

Quick work around on my denon 4700h receiver
I plug the Apple TV in to any of the input ports (8K input for me)
I then plug my TV into Monitor 1 input
I plug projector in Monitor 2 input

Then go to set up and turn of dual monitors and select Monitor 1
exit out of set up
on remote / quick select / press and hold button 1 for 3 or 4 seconds to save these settings
repeat for monitor 2
go to set up and change from monitor 1 to monitor 2
on remote / quick select / press and hold button 2 for 3 or 4 seconds to save these settings

Now you can hit quick select 1 or 2 to toggle through projector or TV

I assume in this mode the receiver acts as a switcher instead of a splitter


----------



## graticular

docrog said:


> A third option is to power off (if using the trigger) when connected to an AVR whenever it shuts down.


I'm not sure I understand this - isn't the trigger a trigger out from the Lumagen ?


----------



## Die Zwei

jrp said:


> Normally calibration for HDR content is to Rec2020 points. If you know what you are doing you can choose to have the Pro convert the data to P3 and in that case you can calibrate to P3. However, this is the exception.


Hm, correct me if i´m wrong (i´m not a calibration expert, we´re working with external calibrators on our projects), but my understanding was, that you should calibrate to the color space that the projector is capable of as it doesn´t do any good to calibrate a projector to bt2020 that is barely capable of covering P3.
That means - since there are very few projectors available that go beyong P3 - that you usually calibrate to P3 as a maximum and let the video processor handle the conversion to that.


----------



## docrog

graticular said:


> I'm not sure I understand this - isn't the trigger a trigger out from the Lumagen ?


I can't speak for the trigger(s?) on the 5xxx series, but the trigger is "IN" for the 4xxx models. My RP is "after" the AVR (between the AVR & PJ) with the AVR acting as the video switching device and no need for routing of audio signals (never had any dropouts) through the RP. I have one trigger "OUT" from my Denon AVR configured for only those inputs which carry video (not for a separate CD player), so the RP powers "ON" when any of the video sources (UHD/1080p Blu-Ray, ATV, Roku, TiVo) are selected and then turns "OFF" when the Denon AVR is powered "OFF". FWIW, @jrp has previously posted that it is perfectly acceptable for the RP to be routinely powered "OFF" rather than being placed in Stand By mode.


----------



## Kris Deering

Die Zwei said:


> Hm, correct me if i´m wrong (i´m not a calibration expert, we´re working with external calibrators on our projects), but my understanding was, that you should calibrate to the color space that the projector is capable of as it doesn´t do any good to calibrate a projector to bt2020 that is barely capable of covering P3.
> That means - since there are very few projectors available that go beyong P3 - that you usually calibrate to P3 as a maximum and let the video processor handle the conversion to that.


That is one approach and really the only one that works if you want to do a 3D LUT. The question then becomes whether you actually need a 3D LUT. Some people jump on that bandwagon because they see a feature and think they have to use it. I only use it if the display needs it. I do a LOT of JVC and Sony projectors and with those, it is extremely rare to need a 3D LUT. I use a 1D LUT for pretty much every job though.


----------



## busybee2498

What is the best way to set aspect ratio for the best quality on the lumagen?
I have a 2.35 screen and watch 95% of content in a 2.35 format streamed on ATV
16.9 content I use my TV that's behind the screen

Right now I have my Sony PJ zoomed to fill screen 
Do I need to masked top and bottom to help black out the black bars?


----------



## bobof

busybee2498 said:


> Right now I have my Sony PJ zoomed to fill screen
> Do I need to masked top and bottom to help black out the black bars?


It depends. If the unused area of the panel is bright enough that you can see the screen frame or wall being lit up during dark scenes, then that would be distracting I think, and you should try and mask some of it. I have a mask installed at the lens on my X7900 that I use to remove stray light from hitting my ceiling from the light path; something similar could be made to work on your PJ I'm sure.


----------



## graticular

docrog said:


> I can't speak for the trigger(s?) on the 5xxx series, but the trigger is "IN" for the 4xxx models. My RP is "after" the AVR (between the AVR & PJ) with the AVR acting as the video switching device and no need for routing of audio signals (never had any dropouts) through the RP. I have one trigger "OUT" from my Denon AVR configured for only those inputs which carry video (not for a separate CD player), so the RP powers "ON" when any of the video sources (UHD/1080p Blu-Ray, ATV, Roku, TiVo) are selected and then turns "OFF" when the Denon AVR is powered "OFF". FWIW, @jrp has previously posted that it is perfectly acceptable for the RP to be routinely powered "OFF" rather than being placed in Stand By mode.


Thanks - makes sense to me now, your RP is powered directly from the AVR. Sadly this wouldn't work for me as I have the RP before the AVR. Jim's solution to my original issue works perfectly, but it would be nice to have a trigger in or equivalent on the RP to avoid having to remember to switch it off every time.


----------



## docrog

graticular said:


> Thanks - makes sense to me now, your RP is powered directly from the AVR. Sadly this wouldn't work for me as I have the RP before the AVR. Jim's solution to my original issue works perfectly, but it would be nice to have a trigger in or equivalent on the RP to avoid having to remember to switch it off every time.


Out of curiosity, what's keeping you from having your RP between your AVR and PJ? Both Jim as well as my top level calibrator (among others) have acknowledged that there is essentially zero visible degradation of the video signal with most recent AVRs and, as a bonus, you'd gain full access to the AVR's GUI.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Out of curiosity, what's keeping you from having your RP between your AVR and PJ? Both Jim as well as my top level calibrator (among others) have acknowledged that there is essentially zero visible degradation of the video signal with most recent AVRs and, as a bonus, you'd gain full access to the AVR's GUI.


Because he has a 5 series and putting all the sources through it increases the audio quality and video quality by de-jiterring the digital signal. Although your method of configuration works it is not optimal for audio quality or for HDMI handshaking reliability, but it can work for sure and i have many clients with 4 series units who run things that way.


----------



## Die Zwei

Kris Deering said:


> That is one approach and really the only one that works if you want to do a 3D LUT. The question then becomes whether you actually need a 3D LUT. Some people jump on that bandwagon because they see a feature and think they have to use it. I only use it if the display needs it. I do a LOT of JVC and Sony projectors and with those, it is extremely rare to need a 3D LUT. I use a 1D LUT for pretty much every job though.


Thanks Kris. What are the parameters when you would say that a projector needs a 3Dlut?


----------



## alv

Kris Deering said:


> That is one approach and really the only one that works if you want to do a 3D LUT. The question then becomes whether you actually need a 3D LUT. Some people jump on that bandwagon because they see a feature and think they have to use it. I only use it if the display needs it. I do a LOT of JVC and Sony projectors and with those, it is extremely rare to need a 3D LUT. I use a 1D LUT for pretty much every job though.


How much does the 1D LUT help on a Sony?. My projector looks great now without it, but always like to make improvements.


----------



## docrog

Gordon Fraser said:


> Because he has a 5 series and putting all the sources through it increases the audio quality and video quality by de-jiterring the digital signal. Although your method of configuration works it is not optimal for audio quality or for HDMI handshaking reliability, but it can work for sure and i have many clients with 4 series units who run things that way.


Since you have real world experience with your clients making use of a variety of RP configurations, I'd really love to understand what they actually perceive to be enhanced in their theaters regarding audio and video quality related to dejittering having been accomplished by initially passing audio & video through the RP. I've still yet to read how it factors in the real world. Thanks.


----------



## Gregor

jrp said:


> You need to turn the Radiance Pro on manually, and put it into Standby manually, using the remote or a control system.


Thanks! Sorry for the noobie questions. I’ve figure most things out with the manual. I solve the control issue by adding lumagen power on/standby to my Harmonry/Alexa control setup and everything is now working under voice control - thanks for the Lumagen harmony device - works great and I am still amazed by the picture improvement on all sources. One more Question: is it possible to simultaneously output 4k on hdmi 2 for the projector and a lower resolution on hdmi 1 to the AVR? I want to run a small monitor off the AVR for the OSD and to tweak audio settings. My monitor is HD, not 4k, and does not accept the 4k signal, should just get I get a 4k monitor and route the same signal to both outputs? Would that work?

Thanks,
Greg


----------



## docrog

Gregor said:


> Thanks! Sorry for the noobie questions. I’ve figure most things out with the manual. I solve the control issue by adding lumagen power on/standby to my Harmonry/Alexa control setup and everything is now working under voice control - thanks for the Lumagen harmony device - works great and I am still amazed by the picture improvement on all sources. One more Question: is it possible to simultaneously output 4k on hdmi 2 for the projector and a lower resolution on hdmi 1 to the AVR? I want to run a small monitor off the AVR for the OSD and to tweak audio settings. My monitor is HD, not 4k, and does not accept the 4k signal, should just get I get a 4k monitor and route the same signal to both outputs? Would that work?
> 
> Thanks,
> Greg


What's your Lumagen model and AVR brand and model number?


----------



## Gregor

Thanks, I’ll add to my signature.

Lumagen 4242
Sony xw5000es
Pioneer VSX 505LX 7.2.4 with outboard amp
ATV and Shield with Plex


----------



## docrog

Gregor said:


> Thanks, I’ll add to my signature.
> 
> Lumagen 4242
> Sony xw5000es
> Pioneer VSX 505LX 7.2.4 with outboard amp
> ATV and Shield with Plex


I'll PM you


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Best we could get my little JVC X5900 Using the lumagen and 3dlut.


----------



## Kris Deering

Aaron Toulmin said:


> Best we could get my little JVC X5900 Using the lumagen and 3dlut.
> View attachment 3377839


You should (or your calibrator) change your color chart to show saturation tracking. Showing 100% saturation doesn't really tell you anything about your color accuracy except at that point. I've seen lots of displays that measure fine at 100% and look wretched everywhere else. I hate seeing reviews that use that for their reports and I feel that it is a cop out for calibrators as well.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Kris Deering said:


> You should (or your calibrator) change your color chart to show saturation tracking. Showing 100% saturation doesn't really tell you anything about your color accuracy except at that point. I've seen lots of displays that measure fine at 100% and look wretched everywhere else. I hate seeing reviews that use that for their reports and I feel that it is a cop out for calibrators as well.


----------



## [email protected]

I have an issue and need your guys help on solutions.
I have a barcode 4k 23b projector and lumagen pro connected to it. I have the audio out HDMI to a trinnov for audio. I have a Roku, oppo 205, direct TV and an Xbox into lumagen. I keppnon getting screen blank puts. It last a few seconds and then screen comes back on. It may happen every few minutes and then somethings it will happen near continuous. I have switched out HDMI cables and even tried expensive ones and that doesn't work. I did notice that the direct TV connection doesn't have issues which I think is because it is lower resolution input than the others so think it is due to input overload or something not syncing with processor. 
Anyone else with similar issues and have a solution on a certain setting or input/out put settings? 
Thanks.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

docrog said:


> Since you have real world experience with your clients making use of a variety of RP configurations, I'd really love to understand what they actually perceive to be enhanced in their theaters regarding audio and video quality related to dejittering having been accomplished by initially passing audio & video through the RP. I've still yet to read how it factors in the real world. Thanks.


Well to start, Merry Christmas to those celebrating and to everyone else i hope you have a decent break from work!

i've done the demo for folk and for myself and in my experience you get an increased clarity in the ability to discern the difference in pitch of notes. This means voices become clearer. music becomes easier to follow. There is a general tighter feel to the sound. I've copied in Jim's own comments from his white paper on the 5348 design at end of this. I'll also add an anecdote, believe it if you will. I recently installed a 4242-18G for a hi-end hi-fi manufacturer in UK. It was in their main demo room with their own electronics and speakers and a Trinnov Altitude. I was doing a short course on the unit for the sales and technical team who would be involved with the specification and sales of the product in cinemas using their kit. Once i had completed the calibration and gone throught some of the basic set up of the unit we sat down to view some content. After looking at a few clips on their Kaleidascape a couple of the guys asked if the lumagen did any audio processing as they thought the sound was much better now. These are guys who use that system every single day doing demos. Anyway, i hope that gives a little insight.

from 5348 white paper
"People have asked me if reduced jitter and electrical noise matters. Yes, it does. I have been discussing HDMI jitter on the forums for many years. What I can say based on my A-to-B testing is that, with the Lumagen Demo Theater’s Trinnov Altitude 16, the Radiance Pro 5348 does make a significant improvement for appropriate content (e.g. Greatest Showman “Never Enough”). For the current 444X products I get calls on a fairly regular basis asking “the Radiance Pro does not process audio. So how come audio sounds better when it is running through the Radiance Pro?” The difference is lower jitter and reduced electrical noise. The Radiance Pro 4XXX output jitter and electrical noise are already dramatically better than other products we know about, but 5348 takes jitter and noise reduction to what we consider is the ultimate audiophile level.
Some have said that a high-end audio processor’s dejitter circuit can handle higher jitter levels. In my experience, audio processor dejitter circuits can improve the jitter as the signal works toward the DAC’s, but there is a limit to the improvement. The advantage the Radiance Pro has compared to traditional dejitter circuits is it completely regenerates the HDMI audio output using a very low jitter crystal clock chip for the HDMI audio clock, and then passes the HDMI signal through two stages of PLL dejitter circuits. Using linear power supplies also helps keep the jitter low by isolating the noise from the digital circuits away from the HDMI integrated circuits"


----------



## Clark Burk

[email protected] said:


> I have an issue and need your guys help on solutions.
> I have a barcode 4k 23b projector and lumagen pro connected to it. I have the audio out HDMI to a trinnov for audio. I have a Roku, oppo 205, direct TV and an Xbox into lumagen. I keppnon getting screen blank puts. It last a few seconds and then screen comes back on. It may happen every few minutes and then somethings it will happen near continuous. I have switched out HDMI cables and even tried expensive ones and that doesn't work. I did notice that the direct TV connection doesn't have issues which I think is because it is lower resolution input than the others so think it is due to input overload or something not syncing with processor.
> Anyone else with similar issues and have a solution on a certain setting or input/out put settings?
> Thanks.


I suggest with the high end equipment you have to get in touch with your dealer/installer and let them know the issue you are experiencing. A connection somewhere in your system may be failing and they may be better equipped to do the troubleshooting.


----------



## [email protected]

Clark Burk said:


> I suggest with the high end equipment you have to get in touch with your dealer/installer and let them know the issue you are experiencing. A connection somewhere in your system may be failing and they may be better equipped to do the troubleshooting.


The equipment issue is with the lumagen as I have tried other cables and equipment and still issues. If bypass the lumagen and plug straight into projector, there is no screen blank outs


----------



## SJHT

Have your dealer work with Lumagen support or contact them directly. They may be able to help and have specific cable recommendations because of the HDMI design of their processor. SJ


----------



## Mikesterz

[email protected] said:


> The equipment issue is with the lumagen as I have tried other cables and equipment and still issues. If bypass the lumagen and plug straight into projector, there is no screen blank outs


I believe using only even or odd inputs in the lumagen may speed up the switching. Try to keep the hdmi cable away from speaker or electrical wires and see if it helps. I heard that ultra high speed certified cables are better at shielding but I don’t know if it still matters for those cables or if it would help with what you’re experiencing.


----------



## Anandbabu Rajaretnam

Is there a direct command to turn DTM ON/OFF?


----------



## Kris Deering

No


----------



## DigitalAV

Anandbabu Rajaretnam said:


> Is there a direct command to turn DTM ON/OFF?


Create two Memories: one outputting HDR to the display and one outputting SDR to the display


----------



## bearcat2002

I wish there was a button you could press on the Lumagen remote to turn off all processing so you could go back and forth to really see the difference.


----------



## Clark Burk

bearcat2002 said:


> I wish there was a button you could press on the Lumagen remote to turn off all processing so you could go back and forth to really see the difference.


That’s i good idea. I wonder if it would be possible to have a split screen? One half processed the other unprocessed. That would come in handy with the sharpening too.


----------



## Anandbabu Rajaretnam

DigitalAV said:


> Create two Memories: one outputting HDR to the display and one outputting SDR to the display


I tried this and it does the job, but the screen goes blank for a couple of seconds while switching between memories which is annoying. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## bobof

Clark Burk said:


> That’s i good idea. I wonder if it would be possible to have a split screen? One half processed the other unprocessed. That would come in handy with the sharpening too.


It generally makes no sense for tonemapping because the unmapped output is so far away from SDR that if you showed them in splitscreen all you would see is half the screen looking great and half looking terrible. Likewise, instantaneously disabling DTM would usually need the display to switch between an SDR mode and a PQ gamma curve mode, which renders instant switching probably impossible for most displays.

You could do splitscreen for things like the sharpening control, but that's about it.


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Clark Burk said:


> That’s i good idea. I wonder if it would be possible to have a split screen? One half processed the other unprocessed. That would come in handy with the sharpening too.


It would be good also if you press a button and it makes you a coffee (firstly with a pop-up menu to indicate your coffee choices)


----------



## riddle

Hi, are there any new backlit lumagen remote planned for the new year 2023? It's been a while since anyone here asked about that.

Thank you


----------



## sukumar

My sources are Dune, Panasonic 820, Nvidia. Are alls these considered as HDR sources? It seems Lumagen recommends input HDR sources to use 18hz. Apprecaite it.


----------



## Naiera

If they output HDR they are HDR sources. Are you sure you're not over-thinking this?


----------



## riddle

Hi, I found a very strange problem with the Calman. In the latest R3 and the previous R2 version, you can't connect Lumagen Radiance PRO. In the older version R1 it is not an issue, I have already written to Portrait support but as always all without response. Does anyone have a tip?


----------



## sid123

If I use Lumagen to display the 16:9 picture on the 2:35:1 screen, how close it is to as intended by studios?


----------



## Die Zwei

Gordon Fraser said:


> I'll also add an anecdote, believe it if you will. I recently installed a 4242-18G for a hi-end hi-fi manufacturer in UK. It was in their main demo room with their own electronics and speakers and a Trinnov Altitude. I was doing a short course on the unit for the sales and technical team who would be involved with the specification and sales of the product in cinemas using their kit. Once i had completed the calibration and gone throught some of the basic set up of the unit we sat down to view some content. After looking at a few clips on their Kaleidascape a couple of the guys asked if the lumagen did any audio processing as they thought the sound was much better now. These are guys who use that system every single day doing demos. Anyway, i hope that gives a little insight.


Where in the chain did you add the RP? Before or after the Trinnov?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

Die Zwei said:


> Where in the chain did you add the RP? Before or after the Trinnov?


Before


----------



## 4GivingGuy

riddle said:


> Hi, I found a very strange problem with the Calman. In the latest R3 and the previous R2 version, you can't connect Lumagen Radiance PRO. In the older version R1 it is not an issue, I have already written to Portrait support but as always all without response. Does anyone have a tip?


I had a similar challenge in the latest software version update with the COM port not being recognized by CalMan when connected to the Radiance Pro. All other hardware (meters/generators) connected just fine to CalMan. My solution was to revert the CalMan software back a version and it once again connected just fine. I gave feedback to Portrait but there wasn’t a response.


----------



## riddle

4GivingGuy said:


> I had a similar challenge in the latest software version update with the COM port not being recognized by CalMan when connected to the Radiance Pro. All other hardware (meters/generators) connected just fine to CalMan. My solution was to revert the CalMan software back a version and it once again connected just fine. I gave feedback to Portrait but there wasn’t a response.


I did in some way, I hope they will fix it in some other new release...


----------



## Die Zwei

Gordon Fraser said:


> Before


OK, so it should be an easy test to connect two identical sources to the Trinnov, one via RP and one directly and then compare.


----------



## riddle

Hi, I just got, respond from Portrait and they already know about this issue.


----------



## busybee2498

[email protected] said:


> I have an issue and need your guys help on solutions.
> I have a barcode 4k 23b projector and lumagen pro connected to it. I have the audio out HDMI to a trinnov for audio. I have a Roku, oppo 205, direct TV and an Xbox into lumagen. I keppnon getting screen blank puts. It last a few seconds and then screen comes back on. It may happen every few minutes and then somethings it will happen near continuous. I have switched out HDMI cables and even tried expensive ones and that doesn't work. I did notice that the direct TV connection doesn't have issues which I think is because it is lower resolution input than the others so think it is due to input overload or something not syncing with processor.
> Anyone else with similar issues and have a solution on a certain setting or input/out put settings?
> Thanks.


I was having a similar issue 
My case was because I had my tv and projector connected to my AC receiver. Unplugged tv it worked turn on tv and projector together it worked. Tv off and projector, didn’t work.


----------



## Gordon Fraser

busybee2498 said:


> I was having a similar issue
> My case was because I had my tv and projector connected to my AC receiver. Unplugged tv it worked turn on tv and projector together it worked. Tv off and projector, didn’t work.


Some TV's, when in standby, continue to poll the devices they are attached to. This causes and HDMI interupt on the source they are trying to speak to and if it's an AVR or a video processor that is on and already feeding a signal to a secondary display it can cause this drop out in a very cyclical way as you experienced.


----------



## busybee2498

Gordon Fraser said:


> Some TV's, when in standby, continue to poll the devices they are attached to. This causes and HDMI interupt on the source they are trying to speak to and if it's an AVR or a video processor that is on and already feeding a signal to a secondary display it can cause this drop out in a very cyclical way as you experienced.


Yes, I notice my TV even when off sends signals ever few minutes. Some people may chalk it up as bad cables. 
the problem is dual monitors mode in receivers act as a splitter vs a switch allowing edid conflicts with other connected devices. Change to monitor 1 or 2 and problem went away.


----------



## Die Zwei

busybee2498 said:


> the problem is dual monitors mode in receivers act as a splitter vs a switch allowing edid conflicts with other connected devices.


Depends on brand/model, so i wouldn´t see that as a general rule.


----------



## sukumar

I have a sony xw5000es projector which does not have lense memory. If I add Lumagen and 2:39 screen of size 165 inches, do I get the scoped picture as intended by the source? Is it ok the picture-wise to see 16:9 on this size screen to fill it or not recommended to fill it?

I also like to use Lumagen after receiver, otherwise, no use of so many features of Anthem mrx 1140, unless it is really worth to use other way. Appreciate input.


----------



## Kris Deering

sukumar said:


> I have a sony xw5000es projector which does not have lense memory. If I add Lumagen and 2:39 screen of size 165 inches, do I get the scoped picture as intended by the source? Is it ok the picture-wise to see 16:9 on this size screen to fill it or not recommended to fill it?
> 
> I also like to use Lumagen after receiver, otherwise, no use of so many features of Anthem mrx 1140, unless it is really worth to use other way. Appreciate input.


Absolutely. The Lumagen can do all the aspect control. PM sent.


----------



## [email protected]

One quick question.
If I back up the Lumagen configuration via its configuration utility, does it back up everything including the 1D/3D LUTs as well?


----------



## Gordon Fraser

yes


----------



## Erod

When and what is the next update?


----------



## Kris Deering

Just got a beta of next planned update that refines the auto aspect for some corner cases reported. Also changes the amount of area for subtitles. Few other tweaks if I remember.


----------



## Erod

Ok, I'm 16:9, so doesn't apply to me.

I thought there were some DTM- related things in the works.


----------



## Aaron Toulmin

Once the current aspect ratio changes are complete, DTM was next.


----------



## desray2k

Erod said:


> When and what is the next update?


Haha...no new year eve present for us. Patrick is working on the refinements of the instant AR.


----------



## Clark Burk

desray2k said:


> Haha...no new year eve present for us. Patrick is working on the refinements of the instant AR.


Not so fast, they never said which New Year...... . Yes I'm hoping for the DTM refinements too although firmware updates seem to happen at a somewhat slower pace now. I would think DTM is the most important feature for most owners so although the DTM is already very good, when improvements are mentioned, it's easy to see the anticipation build up.


----------



## EVH78

desray2k said:


> Haha...no new year eve present for us. Patrick is working on the refinements of the instant AR.


It´s done when it´s done...


----------



## GassiousPassius

EVH78 said:


> It´s done when it´s done...


Never rush a master at his craft.

Have a Happy New Year everyone!


----------



## arsenalfc89

Honestly hard to fathom how much better DTM can be improved. It being so good now makes it easy to be patient for improvements.


----------



## Clark Burk

arsenalfc89 said:


> Honestly hard to phantom how much better DTM can be improved. It being so good now makes it easy to be patient for improvements.


I agree. It’s difficult to see how it can be better. But trust me if the gang at Lumagen says they are working on improvements, I can’t wait to see what they come up with.
Actually I find it difficult to be patient. Like a kid on Christmas morning……


----------



## WCEaglesMan

Clark Burk said:


> I agree. It’s difficult to see how it can be better.


Gee ... there is a tough crowd on this forum !


----------



## sukumar

It seems it is recommended to use Lumagen before the receiver. But my receiver(MRX 1140) has a lot of functionality to have a number of virtual inputs with different correction (ARC) applied with doors open etc and different audio processing etc . It also adds volume on the screen, but this is not a big deal.

Let me know how you are handling your receiver without msising these. Also, it is a long forum. For someone to get started with it at least some level of calibration, please point me to any steps. It might take a lot of time to get perfection, but at least want to prepare steps for the device to be configured. I will start reading as well.

Appreciate your time.


----------



## jbrinegar

sukumar said:


> It seems it is recommended to use Lumagen before the receiver. But my receiver(MRX 1140) has a lot of functionality to have a number of virtual inputs with different correction (ARC) applied with doors open etc and different audio processing etc . It also adds volume on the screen, but this is not a big deal.
> 
> Let me know how you are handling your receiver without msising these. Also, it is a long forum. For someone to get started with it at least some level of calibration, please point me to any steps. It might take a lot of time to get perfection, but at least want to prepare steps for the device to be configured. I will start reading as well.
> 
> Appreciate your time.


I have an anthem 1120 and use it in front of the Lumagen so I retain the Avr OSD with no problems. Try it both ways and pick the way you prefer


----------



## avdvplus

jbrinegar said:


> I have an anthem 1120 and use it in front of the Lumagen so I retain the Avr OSD with no problems. Try it both ways and pick the way you prefer


In my case, I tested a number of different connections ways and ended up using the Lumagen in parallel with the receiver (sources directly connected to the Lumagen, Lumagen directly connected to projector, and Lumagen audio out to the receiver) to reduce and shorten the HDMI chain. This improved the handshake and timing but your milage may vary. Also in this scenario the Lumagen has full control on the signal from the inputs (sources/devices) to the output (sink/projectors/tv) with no device in between creating any image changes (such as the receiver).

If you prefer retaining the receiver OSD - the Lumagen can be before or after the receiver (as long as you are not connecting devices to the Lumagen and the Lumagen is after the receiver) and you will see the OSD for all sources.

There could be a case to put the Lumagen as the last device before the projector since that way the Lumagen is the last device to correct the image before sending to the projector (assuming the receiver could create some image changes).


----------



## Erod

Source>>Lumagen>>Projector

Avoids devices between the Lumagen and the display. 

However, if you're having audio issues like dropouts from the hypersensitivity with the Lumagen and cables, going through the AVR might be better for you.


----------



## sukumar

Erod said:


> Source>>Lumagen>>Projector
> 
> Avoids devices between the Lumagen and the display.
> 
> However, if you're having audio issues like dropouts from the hypersensitivity with the Lumagen and cables, going through the AVR might be better for you.


Thanks. Do you use in this way to improve audio from Lumagen? Any logical reason behind it? I am afraid I lose a lot of features of the receiver if I set up in this way.


----------



## Erod

sukumar said:


> Thanks. Do you use in this way to improve audio from Lumagen? Any logical reason behind it? I am afraid I lose a lot of features of the receiver if I set up in this way.


Other than an OSD, I don't know what you'd be losing.

My HTP-1 doesn't use an OSD, and I don't miss it. I can change the volume without the wife even noticing!!


----------



## sukumar

Erod said:


> Other than an OSD, I don't know what you'd be losing.
> 
> My HTP-1 doesn't use an OSD, and I don't miss it. I can change the volume without the wife even noticing!!


;-) Same here on that part to increase volume.

For each virtual input/input, I can choose different ARC(audio correction) and processing (dolby surround) etc. I will check to make sure. I may be able to change from web ui and app. need to check.


----------



## graticular

Erod said:


> Other than an OSD, I don't know what you'd be losing.
> 
> I can change the volume without the wife even noticing!!


This is a definite advantage, and I can also adjust lip sync without shouts of "Can't you get rid of that thing on the screen".


----------



## Craig Peer

Erod said:


> Other than an OSD, I don't know what you'd be losing.
> 
> My HTP-1 doesn't use an OSD, and I don't miss it. * I can change the volume without the wife even noticing!!*


THIS! I use the DeRemote app on my iPhone to adjust the volume with no OSD. I don't miss not having an OSD one bit. In fact, it's less garbage on the screen. I have a 2nd HDMI cable run from my receiver to the projector for those rare occasions I need to see the OSD. The new Denon A1H will have the ability to do everything on a computer anyway - I never need to see the OSD ever again anyway.


----------



## Craig Peer

sukumar said:


> Thanks. Do you use in this way to improve audio from Lumagen? Any logical reason behind it? I am afraid I lose a lot of features of the receiver if I set up in this way.


I was having occasional audio dropouts. Sending video to the Lumagen and audio straight to my receiver solved that 100%.


----------



## jrp

Some comments on audio drops when using a Terra server:

When we had the Strato 6 TB, once I went to three meter cables audio dropouts stopped occurring using the Radiance Pro driving our Altitude 16. They were rare before that, but they stopped after updating the HDMI cables.

A while back we switched to a Strato-C and a Terra 40TB server. After this we would get an audio drop maybe once or twice a month when using the Strato-C as the source. Then about 8 weeks ago we started to get more audio drops and also a couple video dropouts. At the same time our intrernet became unreliable. It seemed to me we lost one of our three eero's hubs at some point in the past, and one of the other hubs picked up the slack. Then about 8 weeks ago it seemed the main eero went bad, or it might have been our 24 port switch. After lots of testing I bought three additional eero's and two 8 port Gb switches. I replaced the two eero's I thought bad, and used the new 8-port Gb switches. I got the internet working. However, we still were still having audio drops using the Strato-C.

Then because I had by that time attributed the Strato-C audio drops with the Ethernet connection, I put the third new eero in the theater WiFi connected to the main eero hub. I hard wired the theater 8 port Gb switch to the theater eero. No more Strato-C audio drops since then. This was almost a month ago. This is a "knock on wood" moment, but hopefully this holds.

What I suspect is that when everything was hardwired to the 24 port switch, that there could occasionally be enough activity to very temporarily interrupt the Stream from the Terra to the Strato-C and cause an audio dropout. I would not have though this possible, but it would explain the occasional audio dropouts. Or maybe the CAT cable was having issues. Not sure. However, putting the eero in the theater seemed to isolate the theater sub-net eliminating extrainious LAN traffic, and no more Strato audio dropouts since then.

This of course may not be helpful for your system if you have audio dropouts, but it has been long enough now that I wanted to at least note our result. Audio dropouts stopped as soon as I put the eero in the theater. Timing seems too accurate to be coincidental. Isolating your theater internet as a WiFI connected eero subnet might be something to try.


----------



## ajbriones

jrp said:


> Some comments on audio drops when using a Terra server:
> 
> When we had the Strato 6 TB, once I went to three meter cables audio dropouts stopped occurring using the Radiance Pro driving our Altitude 16. They were rare before that, but they stopped after updating the HDMI cables.
> 
> A while back we switched to a Strato-C and a Terra 40TB server. After this we would get an audio drop maybe once or twice a month when using the Strato-C as the source. Then about 8 weeks ago we started to get more audio drops and also a couple video dropouts. At the same time our intrernet became unreliable. It seemed to me we lost one of our three eero's hubs at some point in the past, and one of the other hubs picked up the slack. Then about 8 weeks ago it seemed the main eero went bad, or it might have been our 24 port switch. After lots of testing I bought three additional eero's and two 8 port Gb switches. I replaced the two eero's I thought bad, and used the new 8-port Gb switches. I got the internet working. However, we still were still having audio drops using the Strato-C.
> 
> Then because I had by that time attributed the Strato-C audio drops with the Ethernet connection, I put the third new eero in the theater WiFi connected to the main eero hub. I hard wired the theater 8 port Gb switch to the theater eero. No more Strato-C audio drops since then. This was almost a month ago. This is a "knock on wood" moment, but hopefully this holds.
> 
> What I suspect is that when everything was hardwired to the 24 port switch, that there could occasionally be enough activity to very temporarily interrupt the Stream from the Terra to the Strato-C and cause an audio dropout. I would not have though this possible, but it would explain the occasional audio dropouts. Or maybe the CAT cable was having issues. Not sure. However, putting the eero in the theater seemed to isolate the theater sub-net eliminating extrainious LAN traffic, and no more Strato audio dropouts since then.
> 
> This of course may not be helpful for your system if you have audio dropouts, but it has been long enough now that I wanted to at least note our result. Audio dropouts stopped as soon as I put the eero in the theater. Timing seems too accurate to be coincidental. Isolating your theater internet as a WiFI connected eero subnet might be something to try.


I am still experiencing the rare occasional audio dropout with Kscape. I have both the strato and compact terra hardwired via Ethernet to a switch with a direct connection to the router so I really don’t think it’s a data throughput issue.

Can you link me to the preferred HDMI cables, and I can try that to see if it sorts out the issue? My last resort if this doesn’t fix it is to put the AVR before the Lumagen, but quite frankly I really like not seeing the AVR OSD; I’m a volume fiddler, haha.


----------



## audioguy

jrp said:


> Some comments on audio drops when using a Terra server:
> 
> When we had the Strato 6 TB, once I went to three meter cables audio dropouts stopped occurring using the Radiance Pro driving our Altitude 16. They were rare before that, but they stopped after updating the HDMI cables.
> 
> A while back we switched to a Strato-C and a Terra 40TB server. After this we would get an audio drop maybe once or twice a month when using the Strato-C as the source. Then about 8 weeks ago we started to get more audio drops and also a couple video dropouts. At the same time our intrernet became unreliable. It seemed to me we lost one of our three eero's hubs at some point in the past, and one of the other hubs picked up the slack. Then about 8 weeks ago it seemed the main eero went bad, or it might have been our 24 port switch. After lots of testing I bought three additional eero's and two 8 port Gb switches. I replaced the two eero's I thought bad, and used the new 8-port Gb switches. I got the internet working. However, we still were still having audio drops using the Strato-C.
> 
> Then because I had by that time attributed the Strato-C audio drops with the Ethernet connection, I put the third new eero in the theater WiFi connected to the main eero hub. I hard wired the theater 8 port Gb switch to the theater eero. No more Strato-C audio drops since then. This was almost a month ago. This is a "knock on wood" moment, but hopefully this holds.
> 
> What I suspect is that when everything was hardwired to the 24 port switch, that there could occasionally be enough activity to very temporarily interrupt the Stream from the Terra to the Strato-C and cause an audio dropout. I would not have though this possible, but it would explain the occasional audio dropouts. Or maybe the CAT cable was having issues. Not sure. However, putting the eero in the theater seemed to isolate the theater sub-net eliminating extrainious LAN traffic, and no more Strato audio dropouts since then.
> 
> This of course may not be helpful for your system if you have audio dropouts, but it has been long enough now that I wanted to at least note our result. Audio dropouts stopped as soon as I put the eero in the theater. Timing seems too accurate to be coincidental. Isolating your theater internet as a WiFI connected eero subnet might be something to try.


I still have drop-out, and almost (if not 100%) exclusively using Kaleidescape as the source (other sources are AppleTV, Nvidia Shield playing ripped movies, BR player and music server . I recently purchased the recommended longer (3 meter) cables for connecting the Kaleidescape, made sure they weren't laying next to power cords or equivalent, and have the audio NOT pass through the Lumagen. They MAY be fewer in number and MAY last less time, but still have them and they are still most annoying. ALWAYS takes me away from the experience. All of my equipment is Ethernet connected to a gigabit switch, which is hardwired to the router, running gigabit internet. My music server is on the same network and have NEVER had an audio drop-out when streaming - including multi-channel, high resolution music.. 

I'd be curious to see a poll from folks have audio dropouts and from which source they occur. Based upon my informal scans of posts on this subject, Kaleidescape seems to be the primary culprit, but I could be wrong. But if they are, good luck in getting them to spend resources on finding a solution.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> I still have drop-out, and almost (if not 100%) exclusively using Kaleidescape as the source (other sources are AppleTV, Nvidia Shield playing ripped movies, BR player and music server . I recently purchased the recommended longer (3 meter) cables for connecting the Kaleidescape, made sure they weren't laying next to power cords or equivalent, and have the audio NOT pass through the Lumagen. They MAY be fewer in number and MAY last less time, but still have them and they are still most annoying. ALWAYS takes me away from the experience. All of my equipment is Ethernet connected to a gigabit switch, which is hardwired to the router, running gigabit internet. My music server is on the same network and have NEVER had an audio drop-out when streaming - including multi-channel, high resolution music..
> 
> I'd be curious to see a poll from folks have audio dropouts and from which source they occur. Based upon my informal scans of posts on this subject, Kaleidescape seems to be the primary culprit, but I could be wrong. But if they are, good luck in getting them to spend resources on finding a solution.


Audio drops are annoying and frustrating. I know a lot of people like to point the finger at Lumagen, but I have just as many clients without a Lumagen in their setup that still get them from various sources (AppleTV being a very common one). I haven't got one from my Strato/Terra setup in a long time (can't even remember how long it has been), but I probably get a random one from my AppleTV probably once ever two to three weeks. It definitely isn't every time or even very often, but it happens. The video typically has a stutter when it happens as well, so that leads me to think it is related to the AppleTV. I also have an AppleTV downstairs in my family room connected directly to my OLED. Same thing, every once in a blue moon I'll get a random drop. Maybe it is a buffer thing, maybe it is an HDMI thing, so hard to know. 

Cables can definitely be an issue though. I know some balk at this, but I've had LOTS of clients that have issues with their setups and changing the cables out to recommended ones cleared up the issues completely. This is especially true for those that were using short runs or cables with known issues.


----------



## avdvplus

jrp said:


> We made SDR709 the default output color space _only_ because at the time a number of projectors failed to pay attention to the Rec 2020 flag and only paid attention to the HDR flag. Everything worked correctly with Rec709, but that is one of the things we recommend changing to SDR2020 as you do setup - then making sure the projector is in Rec 2020 mode either by seeing the Rec 2020 flag from the Radiance Pro or manually selecting it.
> 
> At this time only Colourspace can do a good job on a 3D LUT for Rec 2020, and then only if you know how to do an augmented 3D LUT. However, it is reported Calman can do a good job on a P3 3D LUT as long as the projector's color Gamut is near P3 or better. So, calibrators using Calman can calibrate to P3, including a 3D LUT.
> 
> Note that reports are both JVC and Sony projectors benefit from a 21 point 1D Grayscale LUT in the Radiance Pro to achieve below 1.0 dE's for grayscale, but do not generally need a 3D LUT to have low enough dE's throughout the achievable Gamut range for the projector.


Jim, thanks for the feedback on this topic. I have used HCFR, Calman, ChromaPure, and ColourSpace in the past and currently only use ColourSpace for 3D LUTs for a number of reasons including, as you said, the only one that has accurate results for Rec 2020. My only comment would be that although I have done a number of Augmented 3D LUTs only 50% of the time I had better results and the other 50% of the time not much improvement or no improvement. From what I know, Augmunted 3D LUTs in ColourSpace is normally done to improve the greyscale/white balance generally using a larger number of greyscale points than the max 3D cube points Lumagen can take for greyscale points - In this case you would normally use in ColourSpace the "Grey Ramp RGB Large" (with 33 total points including one set of RGB points) profiling to augment the 3D LUT. This only improves the 3D LUT if it has a greyscale/white balance results that needs improvement but in many cases I have had a number of results which the original 3D LUT already had great greyscale points and the Augmentation process did not improve the results by much or at not at all.


----------



## Kris Deering

avdvplus said:


> Jim, thanks for the feedback on this topic. I have used HCFR, Calman, ChromaPure, and ColourSpace in the past and currently only use ColourSpace for 3D LUTs for a number of reasons including, as you said, the only one that has accurate results for Rec 2020. My only comment would be that although I have done a number of Augmented 3D LUTs only 50% of the time I had better results and the other 50% of the time not much improvement or no improvement. From what I know, Augmunted 3D LUTs in ColourSpace is normally done to improve the greyscale/white balance generally using a larger number of greyscale points than the max 3D cube points Lumagen can take for greyscale points - In this case you would normally use in ColourSpace the "Grey Ramp RGB Large" (with 33 total points including one set of RGB points) profiling to augment the 3D LUT. This only improves the 3D LUT if it has a greyscale/white balance results that needs improvement but in many cases I have had a number of results which the original 3D LUT already had great greyscale points and the Augmentation process did not improve the results by much or at not at all.


I find that with most JVC and Sony projectors there is absolutely no reason at all to use a 3D LUT and in many case it makes things worse (linearity and artifacts are added). I definitely see the value in a good 1D LUT for grayscale/gamma though. These projectors are linear enough in their color performance that I just don't really see the point in a 3D LUT. You will spend hours and hours working on them only to get a dE that is probably less than 1 dE different than before, which are typically less than 2-3 to begin with in the areas the projector actually covers. Maybe some other projectors have issues that need a 3D LUT, but so far they've been a rare breed for me.


----------



## avdvplus

Kris Deering said:


> I find that with most JVC and Sony projectors there is absolutely no reason at all to use a 3D LUT and in many case it makes things worse (linearity and artifacts are added). I definitely see the value in a good 1D LUT for grayscale/gamma though. These projectors are linear enough in their color performance that I just don't really see the point in a 3D LUT. You will spend hours and hours working on them only to get a dE that is probably less than 1 dE different than before, which are typically less than 2-3 to begin with in the areas the projector actually covers. Maybe some other projectors have issues that need a 3D LUT, but so far they've been a rare breed for me.


Kris, I fully agree. I have only implemented 3D LUTs for projectors that have large gamut coverage (rec2020) and large dE errors (I also have done 3D LUTs for TVs, specially LGs, and those were very beneficial). I currently have one such projector which is Hisense-based and, as far as I know, one of the few projectors that truly has rec2020 coverage but unfortunately with large dE errors. This projector highly benefitted from the 3D LUT.


----------



## Die Zwei

jrp said:


> What I suspect is that when everything was hardwired to the 24 port switch, that there could occasionally be enough activity to very temporarily interrupt the Stream from the Terra to the Strato-C and cause an audio dropout


Mh, highly unlikely since even simpler 24-port switches come with at least a 32Gb/s backplane - maxing that out with a home installation would be pretty hard.


jrp said:


> Or maybe the CAT cable was having issues.





jrp said:


> This of course may not be helpful for your system if you have audio dropouts, but it has been long enough now that I wanted to at least note our result. Audio dropouts stopped as soon as I put the eero in the theater. Timing seems too accurate to be coincidental.


You did a couple of changes to your LAN setup. To me, that sounds more like a malfunction (defective CAT cable is a likely candidate) or a misconfiguration of the previous network setup with the larger switch and the eeros. Could also be a grounding issue with the bigger switch compared to the smaller one (i guess the 8-port switch comes with a pluggable power-supply whereas the 24-port has a built-in one). I think the underlying issue might still be there, but doesn´t effect the network that much anymore as you´ve cut the issue into smaller chunks.


----------



## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> Audio drops are annoying and frustrating. I know a lot of people like to point the finger at Lumagen, but I have just as many clients without a Lumagen in their setup that still get them from various sources (AppleTV being a very common one). I haven't got one from my Strato/Terra setup in a long time (can't even remember how long it has been), but I probably get a random one from my AppleTV probably once ever two to three weeks. It definitely isn't every time or even very often, but it happens. The video typically has a stutter when it happens as well, so that leads me to think it is related to the AppleTV. I also have an AppleTV downstairs in my family room connected directly to my OLED. Same thing, every once in a blue moon I'll get a random drop. Maybe it is a buffer thing, maybe it is an HDMI thing, so hard to know.
> 
> Cables can definitely be an issue though. I know some balk at this, but I've had LOTS of clients that have issues with their setups and changing the cables out to recommended ones cleared up the issues completely. This is especially true for those that were using short runs or cables with known issues.


I have no clue who is to blame - with the exception of those who designed the HDMI standard and the physical connection methodology. You can put together a $250,000 home theater system with the best and most reliable equipment on the planet and HDMI, the cables which may cost $500 for all of them, creates issues which keep the system from being anything close to 100% reliable 99% of the time.

I invested in a Control4 system for the lights and all equipment so that my wife would be able to easily use the system when I was not around with a single remote. Not a shot. Much of the time, everything works like it should when you press the "Watch Kaleidescape (or BluRay or Apple TV)" button, but too many times, nothing happens so the solution *might be* to select another input, then go back to the real input and see if it works (it usually does). Or occasionally, I get some weirdness on the screen (solid green or everything shifted to one side of the screen and totally scrambled or any number of other things) and my wife would have no clue how to fix it. All of the HDMI cables have been updated, and I have done everything many have recommended (less 1) to try and address this mess. The ONLY thing I have not done is to use the Trinnov (vs the Lumagen) as the switcher, though I have done so for the Kaleidescape. 

So very frustrating - but apparently there is no guaranteed way to get the reliable consistancy I want !!!


----------



## Naiera

Kris Deering said:


> I find that with most JVC and Sony projectors there is absolutely no reason at all to use a 3D LUT and in many case it makes things worse (linearity and artifacts are added). I definitely see the value in a good 1D LUT for grayscale/gamma though. These projectors are linear enough in their color performance that I just don't really see the point in a 3D LUT. You will spend hours and hours working on them only to get a dE that is probably less than 1 dE different than before, which are typically less than 2-3 to begin with in the areas the projector actually covers. Maybe some other projectors have issues that need a 3D LUT, but so far they've been a rare breed for me.


Do you know how to avoid the purple snakes on Sony projectors like mine? They're horrible if the projector's internal gamma correction is used, but they still show up when it's turned off an the finer points are calibrated in the LRP. My calibration buddy did some rough calibration in the Sony, but no gamma stuff with that Sony software, and then we did the usual 3D look-up table in the LRP. I gather you think there's a better way? Doing a one-dimensional table in Calman saves some time, after all, and we've had fine results with that, too. Still some banding/occasional purple snakery happening though.


----------



## Sittler27

Kris Deering said:


> I find that with most JVC and Sony projectors there is absolutely no reason at all to use a 3D LUT and in many case it makes things worse (linearity and artifacts are added). I definitely see the value in a good 1D LUT for grayscale/gamma though. These projectors are linear enough in their color performance that I just don't really see the point in a 3D LUT. You will spend hours and hours working on them only to get a dE that is probably less than 1 dE different than before, which are typically less than 2-3 to begin with in the areas the projector actually covers. Maybe some other projectors have issues that need a 3D LUT, but so far they've been a rare breed for me.


If running Profile Off/High Bright, I'd assume a 3DLUT is required?

What are the results then running just 1DLUT on the best picture mode vs a Profile Off/High Bright 1D + 3DLUT?


----------



## melb0028

Kris Deering said:


> I find that with most JVC and Sony projectors there is absolutely no reason at all to use a 3D LUT and in many case it makes things worse (linearity and artifacts are added). I definitely see the value in a good 1D LUT for grayscale/gamma though. These projectors are linear enough in their color performance that I just don't really see the point in a 3D LUT. You will spend hours and hours working on them only to get a dE that is probably less than 1 dE different than before, which are typically less than 2-3 to begin with in the areas the projector actually covers. Maybe some other projectors have issues that need a 3D LUT, but so far they've been a rare breed for me.


Specific to lg oleds, I’ve found a colourspace generated 33^3 loaded directly into the oled can result in astonishing improvements. Highly recommended but time consuming.


----------



## Kris Deering

melb0028 said:


> Specific to lg oleds, I’ve found a colourspace generated 33^3 loaded directly into the oled can result in astonishing improvements. Highly recommended but time consuming.


Agree, 3D LUTs with the OLEDs has been very valuable, I run them for all LG and Sony models I work on. I was referring mainly to projectors in my comment and specifically mentioned the JVC/SONY stuff.


----------



## markie4tv

jrp said:


> Output shrink sets which pixels from the projector raster are used as the "active raster" image area. This allows you to fit the total active image area to the screen. It affects all sources assuming you use one output style.
> 
> Vertical Shift moves the source image up or down within the active raster. Typically you would use vertical shift to move a source aspect that is larger up or down (e.g. 2.40 moved to the bottom of the active raster area of a 16:9 screen). Since this is an input side control, this can be used for a single source or all sources.


Hi Jim, I have a laserdisc player that outputs video via composite rca , using an rca to hdmi changer. The picture stays in the center of the screen , using the 2.35 button on the lumagen it fills left and right but no constant height so black bars top and bottom.
the video is fed from the laserdisc/marantz/Lumagen to the projector. All other sources trigger the aspect change bar this one, any ideas?


----------



## sukumar

It seems 18ghz input is recommended for HDR sources. If I need to connect 4k Dune, Nividia and Panasonic 820b, are these all need 18ghz inputs? So, it needs a model that has 3 18ghz inputs. Appreciate it.


----------



## LGJr

melb0028 said:


> Specific to lg oleds, I’ve found a colourspace generated 33^3 loaded directly into the oled can result in astonishing improvements. Highly recommended but time consuming.


Hello, what hdr settings are you using? I have a 4242 and 77CX oled.


----------



## Kris Deering

sukumar said:


> It seems 18ghz input is recommended for HDR sources. If I need to connect 4k Dune, Nividia and Panasonic 820b, are these all need 18ghz inputs? So, it needs a model that has 3 18ghz inputs. Appreciate it.


Yes, they all need 18G inputs, which most of the Lumagen models have.


----------



## melb0028

LGJr said:


> Hello, what hdr settings are you using? I have a 4242 and 77CX oled.


Input hdr setup 
Hdr intensity mapping 
High display ratio -5, low 5
Shape 0
Transition 0
Luminance desat auto
Max default 4000, use default auto
Dtm enabled, dynamic pad 3, adaptive yes

Output hdr intensity mapping 
Mapping enable on
Max light 9900
Gamma into 3d lut auto

Cms colourspace hdr2020, hdr flag always on

I adjust the display ratio adjust up or down a few points depending on the movie to get best picture. I like how this gets as close to reference as I can. Ymmv


----------



## LGJr

Hello, what hdr settings are you using? I have a 4242 and 77CX oled.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I'll give it a try.


----------



## Mikesterz

audioguy said:


> I have no clue who is to blame - with the exception of those who designed the HDMI standard and the physical connection methodology. You can put together a $250,000 home theater system with the best and most reliable equipment on the planet and HDMI, the cables which may cost $500 for all of them, creates issues which keep the system from being anything close to 100% reliable 99% of the time.
> 
> I invested in a Control4 system for the lights and all equipment so that my wife would be able to easily use the system when I was not around with a single remote. Not a shot. Much of the time, everything works like it should when you press the "Watch Kaleidescape (or BluRay or Apple TV)" button, but too many times, nothing happens so the solution *might be* to select another input, then go back to the real input and see if it works (it usually does). Or occasionally, I get some weirdness on the screen (solid green or everything shifted to one side of the screen and totally scrambled or any number of other things) and my wife would have no clue how to fix it. All of the HDMI cables have been updated, and I have done everything many have recommended (less 1) to try and address this mess. The ONLY thing I have not done is to use the Trinnov (vs the Lumagen) as the switcher, though I have done so for the Kaleidescape.
> 
> So very frustrating - but apparently there is no guaranteed way to get the reliable consistancy I want !!!


I had similar issues with having to switch inputs and back again to get a proper, or any image at all. I decided to purchase bullet train 18gbps hdmi cables. 3 meters for sources to lumagen and lumagen to altitude, and 15 meters from lumagen to my projector. This has greatly improved video. I haven’t tested it long enough to make sure audio is fine but so far I am pleased with the results.


----------



## audioguy

Mikesterz said:


> I had similar issues with having to switch inputs and back again to get a proper, or any image at all. I decided to purchase bullet train 18gbps hdmi cables. 3 meters for sources to lumagen and lumagen to altitude, and 15 meters from lumagen to my projector. This has greatly improved video. I haven’t tested it long enough to make sure audio is fine but so far I am pleased with the results.


Same exact cables I just purchased, and on the first movie (from Kaleidescape) no errors. But that didn't last long.

I searched the Envy thread and not a single complaint on this subject. So it is either the Lumagen or I need to use the Trinnov as the switcher (as I would need to do if I purchased an Envy).


----------



## appelz

audioguy said:


> Same exact cables I just purchased, and on the first movie (from Kaleidescape) no errors. But that didn't last long.
> 
> I searched the Envy thread and not a single complaint on this subject. So it is either the Lumagen or I need to use the Trinnov as the switcher (as I would need to do if I purchased an Envy).


I've calibrated quite a few systems with the Envy, and they are not immune.


----------



## audioguy

appelz said:


> I've calibrated quite a few systems with the Envy, and they are not immune.


Interesting. But given I didn't find the number of posts (actually I found none) on the Envy thread about drop outs, it must not be the same magnitude of an issue. I will give using the Trinnov as the switcher and see what happens.


----------



## Kris Deering

audioguy said:


> Interesting. But given I didn't find the number of posts (actually I found none) on the Envy thread about drop outs, it must not be the same magnitude of an issue. I will give using the Trinnov as the switcher and see what happens.


The Envy has no audio at alll as it is past the audio processor. But yet EVERY demo I went to with an Envy at CEDIA had audio drop outs (Trinnov x2, Storm, Steinway). 

So still could be something with your Trinnov. I know for awhile I was battling audio drop outs and nothing I did with Lumagen was fixing and then I reached out to Trinnov. EVERY time they found something that wasn't up to date (despite the unit saying it was) and eventually got to where there were no more. Now I have an audio drop from AppleTV maybe once a month and nothing else.


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## Die Zwei

audioguy said:


> Interesting. But given I didn't find the number of posts (actually I found none) on the Envy thread about drop outs, it must not be the same magnitude of an issue. I will give using the Trinnov as the switcher and see what happens.


Since there are a lot more Lumagens in the wild than Envys, i think it´s just related to that.
We´ve experienced audio-dropouts with the Envy as well. With different sources and all of them with a Trinnov (since we almost solely do installations where a Trinnov is involved, not saying that this is a Trinnov-only issue) in the chain. So i think it´s not related to the actual video processor - let it be Envy or Lumagen - but more realated to the whole chain or even just the source.


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## Mikesterz

audioguy said:


> Same exact cables I just purchased, and on the first movie (from Kaleidescape) no errors. But that didn't last long.
> 
> I searched the Envy thread and not a single complaint on this subject. So it is either the Lumagen or I need to use the Trinnov as the switcher (as I would need to do if I purchased an Envy).


I believe the Envy uses the hdmi port that came with the graphics card which may be an nVidia card. Big companies like nvidia are able to supply parts that lumagen simply can’t for some reason. Most likely because lumagen is a small company compared to graphics card companies and tv manufacturers.


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## Kris Deering

The Envy is just taking off the shelf parts and putting them together for you in a PC chassis. The Lumagen is designed from the ground up by Lumagen and built to their spec. So they have to source ALL the parts, they are not buying anything OTS. So volume comes into play on what they can and can't procure when it comes to HDMI. Some brands don't want to deal with orders unless they are huge.


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## Aaron Toulmin

And good luck upgrading the envy in the future as current 4xxx series Nvidia cards won’t fit in current case.


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## FenceMan

Aaron Toulmin said:


> And good luck upgrading the envy in the future as current 4xxx series Nvidia cards won’t fit in current case.


Lol the LRP hasn't changed in 10 years and you're concerned with upgradeability?


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## Karl Maga

FenceMan said:


> Lol the LRP hasn't changed in 10 years and you're concerned with upgradeability?


Hasn’t changed? Do you understand what an FPGA is? I know from past posts that you’re more passionate than you are knowledgeable, but understanding FPGA technology is critical to this conversation.


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## bjorg

Karl Maga said:


> Hasn’t changed? Do you understand what an FPGA is? I know from past posts that you’re more passionate than you are knowledgeable, but understanding FPGA technology is critical to this conversation.


FPGA also evolve in hardware, not only in software. Don't get me wrong, they are great for a lot of applications. However to make knowledge, FPGAs are never as fast as dedicated silicon. GPUs have a massive advantage here and they evolve extremely quickly due to market pressure. Ignoring this would be an oversimplification.


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## Die Zwei

Would be nice if this won´t get again into a Envy vs. Lumagen fight...


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## bobof

There's a good place for that and it's not here... hint hint


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## FenceMan

Karl Maga said:


> Hasn’t changed? Do you understand what an FPGA is? I know from past posts that you’re more passionate than you are knowledgeable, but understanding FPGA technology is critical to this conversation.


Yes and point being look at what Lumagen has been able to do without upgrading base hardware. So saying something can't be upgraded when it's already more powerful than something that hasn't upgraded (and hasn't needed to) as a negative point just isn't accurate.


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## Clark Burk

There’s a definite difference between hardware updates and software updates. Truth be told the Lumagen has been updated in hardware with the 5xxx series. Certain components haven’t changed but some have and the circuit board layouts have been changed.
I really don’t want to get an Envy comparison going but most hardware can be updated even the Envy’s video card. It’s just the level of upgrade may require other components to be changed such as the case but it could be done if needed.


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## Kris Deering

I think the Radiance Pro was released in like 2015 and is still adding features and improving performance. How many products out there have that kind of longevity while still providing cutting edge features that stand up against anything on the market today? Lumagen could always adapt the rest of the markets methodology and just put out a new product every 1-2 years for stuff that likely could have just been a firmware update. They probably would make more money doing that. 8K video is just not a thing in consumer video right now. The only thing happening in consumer video right now that the Lumagen doesn't support is 4K120, which is a reality on two game consoles and for PC gaming and is supported by a handful of projectors at best. MadVR is useless in this regard even if it supports that format because of its long video lag. I'm sure when Lumagen feels like it is time to move to new hardware they will. But the value proposition of the Radiance Pro series is nearly without peer when you look at how long it has been out, supported, and the features that are STILL be added to it. Just continues to solidify Lumagen's commitment to their products and their owners and is another reminder of why they've been in this business for so long while other VP companies have come and gone many times over.


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## Mikesterz

Here at CES and visiting the HDMI booth. A benefit of the HDMI 2.1a spec is the ability to have a smooth transition whenever there’s a frame rate, range, resolution or input change. I’m thinking that means no more blank screen for 5 seconds when you’re navigating menus or switching inputs. That’s a nice feature and would make for a worthy upgrade.


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## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> Here at CES and visiting the HDMI booth. A benefit of the HDMI 2.1a spec is the ability to have a smooth transition whenever there’s a frame rate, range, resolution or input change. I’m thinking that means no more blank screen for 5 seconds when you’re navigating menus or switching inputs. That’s a nice feature and would make for a worthy upgrade.


Agree, but it depends on both the output and the input device supporting all those features, and right now that is EXTREMELY rare. No 2.1 projector has it that I'm aware of, most TVs don't either. Would be great to see more implementations of this though.


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## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> Agree, but it depends on both the output and the input device supporting all those features, and right now that is EXTREMELY rare. No 2.1 projector has it that I'm aware of, most TVs don't either. Would be great to see more implementations of this though.


I’ll visit the booth again and ask if it’s firmware upgradable from 2.1


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## Kris Deering

Mikesterz said:


> I’ll visit the booth again and ask if it’s firmware upgradable from 2.1


If what is firmware upgradable? JVC has said their chips will not do most of the 2.1 features and updates won't provide them either. We've seen this from other displays as well, so it is definitely a limit of the chip. We saw this with 2.0 as well, there were projectors (Sony comes to mind) that couldn't even do full bandwidth but were still advertised as 2.0. HDMI is a train wreck in EVERY single way. One cord to screw us all.


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## Mikesterz

Kris Deering said:


> If what is firmware upgradable? JVC has said their chips will not do most of the 2.1 features and updates won't provide them either. We've seen this from other displays as well, so it is definitely a limit of the chip. We saw this with 2.0 as well, there were projectors (Sony comes to mind) that couldn't even do full bandwidth but were still advertised as 2.0. HDMI is a train wreck in EVERY single way. One cord to screw us all.


I’ve never had an issue with DisplayPort. Unfortunately Lumagen doesn’t support it and I don’t know if DisplayPort can handle a 50’ cable.


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## Kris Deering

DisplayPort would have been a better way than hdmi but it just never happened in the consumer space outside of PC monitors and some pro gear.


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## audioguy

Kris Deering said:


> HDMI is a train wreck in EVERY single way. One cord to screw us all.


And that's being kind. HDMI and it's implementation are responsible for 99.999% of the glitches that occur in my system.


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## dlynch34

Kris Deering said:


> I think the Radiance Pro was released in like 2015 and is still adding features and improving performance. How many products out there have that kind of longevity while still providing cutting edge features that stand up against anything on the market today? Lumagen could always adapt the rest of the markets methodology and just put out a new product every 1-2 years for stuff that likely could have just been a firmware update. They probably would make more money doing that. 8K video is just not a thing in consumer video right now. The only thing happening in consumer video right now that the Lumagen doesn't support is 4K120, which is a reality on two game consoles and for PC gaming and is supported by a handful of projectors at best. MadVR is useless in this regard even if it supports that format because of its long video lag. I'm sure when Lumagen feels like it is time to move to new hardware they will. But the value proposition of the Radiance Pro series is nearly without peer when you look at how long it has been out, supported, and the features that are STILL be added to it. Just continues to solidify Lumagen's commitment to their products and their owners and is another reminder of why they've been in this business for so long while other VP companies have come and gone many times over.


I would go further and say Lumagen took the same path as Trinnov... where as the Envy is hardware heavy like your other brands of processors are... good and bad can we said of both... but ill stick with the tried and true of the Lumagen for what I need it...


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## sor

Man this thread moves so quickly.

I just came to say that in the last beta and I’m experiencing a lot of bouncing back and forth between aspect ratios. Certain scenes result in a flurry of aspect changes. I assume this is due to the “instant aspect” feature from November.

Anyone else already reporting this?


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## Kris Deering

sor said:


> Man this thread moves so quickly.
> 
> I just came to say that in the last beta and I’m experiencing a lot of bouncing back and forth between aspect ratios. Certain scenes result in a flurry of aspect changes. I assume this is due to the “instant aspect” feature from November.
> 
> Anyone else already reporting this?


There will be a new release for the aspect ratio stuff this week that will likely remedy that. The beta was having issues with some odd content and other things, the new one is extremely stable and also doesn't have issues with any weird corner cases that were reported.


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## ajbriones

Kris Deering said:


> Audio drops are annoying and frustrating. I know a lot of people like to point the finger at Lumagen, but I have just as many clients without a Lumagen in their setup that still get them from various sources (AppleTV being a very common one). I haven't got one from my Strato/Terra setup in a long time (can't even remember how long it has been), but I probably get a random one from my AppleTV probably once ever two to three weeks. It definitely isn't every time or even very often, but it happens. The video typically has a stutter when it happens as well, so that leads me to think it is related to the AppleTV. I also have an AppleTV downstairs in my family room connected directly to my OLED. Same thing, every once in a blue moon I'll get a random drop. Maybe it is a buffer thing, maybe it is an HDMI thing, so hard to know.
> 
> Cables can definitely be an issue though. I know some balk at this, but I've had LOTS of clients that have issues with their setups and changing the cables out to recommended ones cleared up the issues completely. This is especially true for those that were using short runs or cables with known issues.


Just wanted to circle back on this with data from this weekend. Zero audio drops on Kscape, Plex HTPC or ATV4K all weekend. No changes in my setup; same cables, same network setup, same everything. I’m going to call this a win and leave it be unless it pops up again.


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## Clark Burk

@jrp Jim is there any update on when we might see the aspect ratio beta on the Lumagen site and when work on the updated tone mapping might start? Thanks


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## stefanop

Kris Deering said:


> There will be a new release for the aspect ratio stuff this week that will likely remedy that. The beta was having issues with some odd content and other things, the new one is extremely stable and also doesn't have issues with any weird corner cases that were reported.


Hopefully, they have solved the trouble with 1.33 aspect ratio which now is automatically squeezed and you have to manually select 16:9 in order to watch correctly.


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## jrp

Patrick sent out a test release yesterday I will be testing today. Timing on this FPGA looks good. First feedback is it has fixed the issues Patrick was working on. This included the 1.33 being stretched horizontally when it should not be.

So there is a good chance we will post it as a Beta in the next day or so, assuming we do not discover issues with it.

Then if this release works well in the wild, Patrick will be on to the desaturation work for DTM.


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## desray2k

jrp said:


> there is a good chance we will post it as a Beta in the next day or so, assuming we do not discover issues with it.
> 
> Then if this release works well in the wild, Patrick will be on to the desaturation work for DTM.


Thanks Jim and Patrick.


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